From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:23 PDT 1996
Article: 71231 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine
Subject: Re: ANY JEWS CONDEMNING ISRAEL?
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:30:41 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Jacob Faturechi  wrote:

>> I don't see any jews here condeming delibrate kiling of
>> children in the ambulance by israel.

>The difference is that Israel did not kill those children deliberately. 

It does in fact appear that Israel has killed civilians, including women and
children, deliberately in Lebanon. Israel has been following a policy of
deliberate state terrorism in order to try to beat into submission the entire
population of Lebanon and to force them to control Hezbollah.

1. Israel has officially defended attacks on clearly marked ambulances carrying
young children. Amnon Shahak issued this policy AFTER the murder of four young
girls and two women.

2. This same Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak, according to The Jewish Bulletin (available
on the Web) has stated that Israel has deliberately terrorized and driven nearly
a half million Lebanese civilians from their homes in order to pressure
Hezbollah. Again, that is state terrorism. Israel has sought to inflict as much
misery as possible on the civilians of Lebanon.

3. Time magazine reports this week that Israel was warned by the U.N. that they
were shelling civilians and children during the massacre at Qana. Despite the
warning, Israel continued the shelling. The conclusion appears to be inescapable
that the government of Israel deliberately murdered civilians and children in
order to make a political point.

And now we have any number of Zionists around the world offering defenses and
apologetics for this kid-killing policy and Israeli state terrorism. Israel's
stain is going to rub off on them.

The world has learned absolutely NOTHING of value from the Holocaust. The only
lesson Israel appears to have learned from the Holocaust is that it is not bound
by the conventional moral standards that the rest of Western democratic world
values.

What is appalling from the American standpoint is that all Americans are getting
dragged into Israel's warped and self-destructive view of the world. Americans
are going to have to pay a heavy price for Israel's blunders and crimes. And
when the full cost of this involvement with Israel becomes apparent to
Americans, Israel may find that it has yet another nation to add to its long
list of enemies.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:24 PDT 1996
Article: 71244 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Operation Big Mess and the Upcoming Elections
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:27:51 GMT
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There is a slight possibility that Operation Big Mess will actually improve
Shimon Peres's chances of being re-elected as PM. Why? Israelis will be reminded
of the limits of military force in solving their political problems. The
exercise of military force provides a short-term emotional release which is no
doubt quite satisfying, but often leaves Israel in a deeper whole than it was in
before it flexed its muscles.

The Israeli public once again felt an icy wind of strong disapproval and disgust
blowing on it from all around the world, including from America. I doubt that
Israelis want to pursue a course that leaves it completely isolated and despised
in the world. And that is precisely where Likud would lead Israel: into
unsplendid isolation and desolation.

It is likely that many Israelis will be thinking about these issues when they
vote in a few days. Benjamin Netanyahu may not be able to benefit from the
embarrassment of Shimon Peres in Operation Big Mess.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:25 PDT 1996
Article: 71273 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:07:45 GMT
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In the Jewish Bulletin in the following article

     http://www.jewish.com/jb/ifrenzy.htm

appears the following paragraphs at the tail end:

---BEGIN---
In hopes of winning an end to the Hezbollah attacks, the Israeli military
campaign, Operation Grapes of Wrath, is at least partly aimed at pressuring
the Beirut government into reining in the fundamentalist group.

The Israel Defense Force chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak, said the
massive wave of 400,000 Lebanese refugees fleeing the repeated Israeli
bombardments of targets in southern Lebanon would force the Lebanese
government into action.

"This flood of people is going to put pressure on the Lebanese government,
and in turn, on Hezbollah," Shahak said Sunday.
---END---

In other words, Israel has deliberately terrorized and collectively
punished nearly a half million Lebanese civilians with the aim of
pressuring Hezbollah. Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak has explicitly declared and
explained the policy. Shahak also defended the murder of four young girls
and two women in Israel's attack on a clearly marked ambulance.

Without a doubt, these are terrorist and Nazi-like policies. History will
judge them as such. The stain is going to rub off on anyone who tries to
rationalize, justify or defend these policies.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:25 PDT 1996
Article: 71275 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: ANY JEWS CONDEMNING ISRAEL?
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:16:54 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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susan  wrote:

>> What is appalling from the American standpoint is that all Americans are 
>getting
>> dragged into Israel's warped and self-destructive view of the world. 
>Americans
>> are going to have to pay a heavy price for Israel's blunders and crimes. And
>> when the full cost of this involvement with Israel becomes apparent to
>> Americans, Israel may find that it has yet another nation to add to its long
>> list of enemies.
>> --
>> Wayne McGuire
>> wmcguire@cybercom.net
>> http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
>
>
>I did not see your letters after the boming of the buses in israel !!!

American taxpayers are not providing billions of dollars in aid annually to
Hamas.

Can you possibly fail to grasp the difference between terrorist groups and
governments which claim democratic and humane lights unto the nations?

If Israel is just a bigger and more effective version of Hamas, then
Americans will want to sever all ties with Israel as soon as possible.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:26 PDT 1996
Article: 71304 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 05:09:42 GMT
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>In article <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net>,
>   wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>> The theme is familiar: the Nazis defined the Jews as their
>> personal Amalek.
>
>	As always, Wayne does a better job speaking for the Nazis
>	than interpreting the Torah.

You've made it clear that according to your interpretation God commands the
Jews to exterminate any ethnic, religious or national group--including
women and children--upon which they stick the tag "Amalek."

One often sees the same exterminationist point of view in Brooklyn's
Orthodox "Jewish Press," which has a larger circulation than any other
Jewish newspaper in the U.S.

Perhaps you could explain how this doctrine varies from Nazism, Communism
or any other messianic ideology which sanctions wiping out entire human
groups.

These were your exact words:

---BEGIN---
>                   AN OPEN LETTER TO GOD
>
>Where were You yesterday? Surely You were not helping the Israelis who
>fired that deadly blitz into the U.N. refugee camp? Did you go there and
>see the carnage?

	Not only did HaShem see the carnage, He brought it about:

Exodus 17:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in 
a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put 
out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

..

Deut. 25:17: Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, 
when ye were come forth out of Egypt; 

	We do, and always will.
---END---

One wonders how many members of the Israeli military share your beliefs. A
considerable number, from all recent accounts. Perhaps some of them made
the decision to keep shelling Qana after they were warned by U.N. forces
that civilians were being slaughtered.

The problem here is that these zealots, who may well control nuclear,
biological and chemical weapons, are gradually expanding their definition
of Amalek to include almost the entire human race. Islamic fundamentalists
may not be the chief threat to the world these days.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:27 PDT 1996
Article: 71396 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 01:58:45 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:28 PDT 1996
Article: 71428 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (Murder of Women and Children)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 01:59:09 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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According to the latest Reuters report, Operation Grapes of Wrath drove a
half million Lebanese civilians from their homes, and succeeded in killing
mostly women and children.

Most of this terrorism was financed by the American taxpayer.

A careful review of all the major American media on the World Wide Web--The
Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, CNN, etc.--will
turn up few articles that haven't condemned the operation as a moral and
political disaster.

The Israeli media--especially The Jerusalem Post (check out its Web
site)--have been radically out of touch with every other nation on the
planet regarding this operation. In fact, according to another Reuters
article, the Israeli media were positively (and foolishly) celebratory
about Israel's ravaging of Lebanon in its early days.

Israel is now in a much weaker position in every respect than it was before
it started Operation Grapes of Wrath--the political damage especially will
be permanent. The reputation and power of Syria and Hezbollah have been
greatly enhanced. Some of us warned strongly as early as April 18 (consult
the archives) that this would be the inevitable outcome of this misguided
terrorist campaign.

---BEGIN---
Refugees Return to Devastation

Huge columns of refugees flooded back to south Lebanon today
to find scenes of devastation from Israel's blitz in  towns and
villages they fled two weeks ago. They came back after a
U.S.-brokered cease-fire between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas
ended 17 days of air and artillery bombardment. Lebanese
officials say Israel's attacks killed more than 200 people,
mostly women and children, wounded hundreds and forced 500,000
villagers to flee. Israelis also began returning to sites in
northern Israel where guerrillas had fired rockets.
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:29 PDT 1996
Article: 71444 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.quebec,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Israeli war crimminals should be brought to Justice
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:30:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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fischthal@lfs.loral.com (Scott Fischthal) wrote:

>Not as I understand it.  DELIBERATELY attacking a UN compound could potentially
>be a war crime.  Missing a legitimate military target by 300 yards would not 
>be.  So, you'd have to somehow show that the attack on the civilian compound 
>was deliberate.  It's the difference between hitting somebody with a car by 
>accident and hitting them with intent.

Time magazine this week reports that Israel continued to shell civilians at
Qana AFTER the U.N. had told Israel that a massacre was underway.  Any
comments?

Furthermore, AFTER Israel slaughtered four young girls and two women in a
clearly marked ambulance, Lt. Gen Amnon Shahak defended the action, and
clearly implied that Israel would not hesitate to repeat it. Shahak has
also baldly admitted that Israel has deliberately terrorized nearly a half
million Lebanese civilians with the aim of pressuring Hezbollah. (That this
was an incredibly stupid policy, we will leave aside for moment).

Here's the info:

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:29 PDT 1996
Article: 71448 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Israel shelling kills 100 at UN base
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:54:52 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <31823355.4554193@news.cybercom.net>
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bhatch@netcom.com (Roberta Hatch) wrote:

>	I see you still can't get it through your thick skull that using
>civilian cover is wrong.  It's especially wrong when the civilians that
>are being used - don't want to be used.  It's cowardly to do that and 
>then try to claim some sort of bizarre moral high ground because civilians
>were killed.

By your logic, the United States was perfectly justified in attacking
civilians in Vietnam because Vietnamese guerrillas were scattered
throughout Vietnamese villages

Supposedly, according to you, when a people is under seige by the world's
most advanced weaponry, they are bound by honor to place all their
resistance forces in clearly marked locations that are carefully separated
>from  the civilian population.

Don't you see the absurdities to which you have reduced yourself in trying
to defend Israel's actions in Lebanon?

You have also claimed repeatedly that Israel shelled civilians in Qana by
accident. On what facts do you base this claim? On the official remarks of
the Israeli government, which has a long and proven track record of lying
about a whole range of issues?

Please reconcile your claim with this information:

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed May  1 10:25:30 PDT 1996
Article: 71541 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:34:13 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3180c277.2011922@news.cybercom.net>
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On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:55:34 -0400, lbunder@aol.com wrote:

>Wayne
>
>Like all groups of people there will always be those in a group who are
>ignorant and stupid, and so you will get Jews (or people who claim to be
>Jews but are really anti-semites) out there to cause trouble.
>
>Leslie

Leslie,

Have you really stopped to take a good look at the incredible volume of hate
messaging coming from Jews in soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.jewish and
talk.politics.mideast?

Why shouldn't this messaging be subjected to the same scrutiny and condemnation
as that of white racists or Islamic extremists? Why isn't the ADL and the Simon
Wiesenthal Center performing this job?

It wasn't a skinhead or an Arab terrorist who murdered the Prime Minister of the
world's only Jewish state: it was a Jewish hater who used Orthodox Judaism as
the rationale and justification for committing murder.

More than a dozen Jews on the Usenet applauded Yigal Amir's murder of Rabin, and
some of them called for the murder of Shimon Peres.

There is an immense problem developing here, and it is getting worse.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu May  2 06:33:34 PDT 1996
Article: 16630 of soc.culture.quebec
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.quebec,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Israeli war crimminals should be brought to Justice
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:30:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <31823baf.6692528@news.cybercom.net>
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fischthal@lfs.loral.com (Scott Fischthal) wrote:

>Not as I understand it.  DELIBERATELY attacking a UN compound could potentially
>be a war crime.  Missing a legitimate military target by 300 yards would not 
>be.  So, you'd have to somehow show that the attack on the civilian compound 
>was deliberate.  It's the difference between hitting somebody with a car by 
>accident and hitting them with intent.

Time magazine this week reports that Israel continued to shell civilians at
Qana AFTER the U.N. had told Israel that a massacre was underway.  Any
comments?

Furthermore, AFTER Israel slaughtered four young girls and two women in a
clearly marked ambulance, Lt. Gen Amnon Shahak defended the action, and
clearly implied that Israel would not hesitate to repeat it. Shahak has
also baldly admitted that Israel has deliberately terrorized nearly a half
million Lebanese civilians with the aim of pressuring Hezbollah. (That this
was an incredibly stupid policy, we will leave aside for moment).

Here's the info:

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu May  2 22:40:09 PDT 1996
Article: 34330 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:10:11 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Report: Israel Shelled Lebanon on Purpose
  	  				 
	LONDON, May 2 (UPI) -- A U.N. investigation has concluded that an  
agency peace force base shelled during Israel's offensive in southern 
Lebanon, killing more than 100 civilian refugees, was targeted by 
Israeli artillery, not hit by accident, a British defense analysis 
service said Thursday. 
	A report on the investigation in the Jane's Information Group  
newsletter Foreign Report said the inquiry found, after independent 
examination of the ordnance and circumstances, ``that the U.N. base was 
targeted by the Israelis.'' 
	The inquiry on the central question in the shelling was ordered by U.  
N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali and conducted by Lt. Col. 
Frank von Kappen, his Dutch military adviser. It began the day after the 
April 18 shelling, and von Kappen visited Lebanon and Jerusalem. 
	The inquiry's key finding contradicted Israeli reports, repeated in  
statements by U.S. officials, that gunners in the 155mm artillery crew 
had accidentally missed a Hezbollah guerrilla target by more than 330 
yards. 
	``The U.N. team had discovered 25 artillery rounds,'' the report  
said, ``at least seven of them with 'proximity fuses.' These shells 
explode about 7 meters (23 feet) above ground in order to kill and maim 
the maximum number of people.'' 
	Israel's U.S.-made M109A1 self-propelled howitzers have a maximum  
range of about 11 miles (18 km) and were firing at a rocket position of 
the Iran-backed Hezbollah that was about 9 miles (15 km) away. Gunners 
had standing orders not to fire within a safety ring around known U.N. 
sites, such as Qana. 
	``Von Kappen reported that he was told by Israeli generals...that no  
unmanned reconnaissance 'drone' aircraft were in the area at the time,'' 
according to the report. 
	But the U.N. military adviser did not tell the Israelis, the report  
said, that a U.N. peacekeeper at a base overlooking Qana had shot 
videotape showing the ``shells landing and an unmanned light aircraft... 
flying overhead'' -- an Israeli reconnaissance drone. 
	A Western artillery officer told the publication that what he saw in  
the video ``was not rescue fire, which in wartime simply pours down 
without warning. That was specific, patterned, spaced firing that took 
15 minutes to prepare.'' 
	The Israelis said after the shelling that the guerrillas had detected  
and were firing at an Israeli commando unit when the artillery tried to 
cover its withdrawal with the shelling. The army acknowledged a 
targeting pause of 15 minutes between the start of the Hezbollah fire 
and the barrage. 
	The first rounds hit a cemetery where Hezbollah, or Party of God, was  
dug in, then two rounds missed the target and hit the base full of 
refugees, the Israelis said. 
	But the U.N. report said the artillery hit the cemetery long after  
the guerrillas had fled, then the Israelis switched their targeting to 
the base, which was hit by at least six rounds. More than 150 people 
were wounded when the M732 radar fuses blasted sharp fragments down from 
the midair rounds. 
	The Foreign Report account also said: ``Israel's prime minister,  
Shimon Peres, said the army did not know of the presence of civilians at 
the U.N. base. However. Maj. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, chief of military 
intelligence, said his men had known about the civilian refugees in the 
U.N. camp, and had informed the Northern Command, which was conducting 
the operation, about them.''...
	   	
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May  3 09:35:18 PDT 1996
Article: 71872 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!csn!news-1.csn.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:23:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <31896c61.37932884@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4ls2pl$dbm@tribune.concentric.net> <3181a91f.61068886@news.cybercom.net> <4lthjs$pvj@tribune.concentric.net> <31824cad.11043518@news.cybercom.net> <4m05kd$phc@tribune.concentric.net>
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>In article <31824cad.11043518@news.cybercom.net>,
>   wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>>Since you are a Torah expert, perhaps you can also explain whether the
>>Torah argues that all acts of aggression against any people or nation
>>should be punished by extermination.
>
>First, I do not consider myself a Torah expert.
>
>Second, the answer to your question is "no".  Only most extreme acts of 
>aggression against the people of Israel warrant the ultimate punishment.
>
>In case you wonder, modern-age Amalekites who for decades have been 
>trying to push the Jews into the sea do qualify.

You didn't address the core question in my last post, which you neatly
edited out. Here it is again:

---BEGIN---
Since you are a Torah expert, perhaps you can also explain whether the
Torah argues that all acts of aggression against any people or nation
should be punished by extermination. Is its ethical vision universal or
particular and ethnocentric? Does it provide a foundation for articulating
a program of universal human rights, applied equitably across all nations
and peoples?
---END---

The question seems direct and simple enough. You don't need to be a Torah
expert to answer it.

Does the Torah hold all the nations in the world to be of equal status and
value, and command them all to abide by the same rules and ethics?

Does the command to exterminate Amalek refer to the murder of innocent
women and children, and to genocidal activity against entire peoples?

You used the command about Amalek to justify Israel's slaughter of women
and children at Qana.

I have seen other Jews in cyberspace argue that the entire Palestinian
people should be exterminated under the authority of this section of Torah.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May  3 09:35:19 PDT 1996
Article: 71873 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!csn!news-1.csn.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel shelling kills 100 at UN base
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:25:11 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <31896e59.38436225@news.cybercom.net>
References: <4ljsju$7tj@news.tiac.net> <4lkdkd$2v2@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> 
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bhatch@netcom.com (Roberta Hatch) wrote:

>	I see you still can't get it through your thick skull that using
>civilian cover is wrong.  It's especially wrong when the civilians that
>are being used - don't want to be used.  It's cowardly to do that and 
>then try to claim some sort of bizarre moral high ground because civilians
>were killed.

By your logic, the United States was perfectly justified in attacking
civilians in Vietnam because Vietnamese guerrillas were scattered
throughout Vietnamese villages

Supposedly, according to you, when a people is under seige by the world's
most advanced weaponry, they are bound by honor to place all their
resistance forces in clearly marked locations that are carefully separated
>from  the civilian population.

Don't you see the absurdities to which you have reduced yourself in trying
to defend Israel's actions in Lebanon?

You have also claimed repeatedly that Israel shelled civilians in Qana by
accident. On what facts do you base this claim? On the official remarks of
the Israeli government, which has a long and proven track record of lying
about a whole range of issues?

Please reconcile your claim with this information:

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May  3 11:54:04 PDT 1996
Article: 86543 of soc.culture.canada
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.quebec,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Israeli war crimminals should be brought to Justice
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:30:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <31823baf.6692528@news.cybercom.net>
References: <4lljml$ecc@tuba.cit.cornell.edu> <4lojaa$657@lfsserv1.fsc.ibm.com>
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fischthal@lfs.loral.com (Scott Fischthal) wrote:

>Not as I understand it.  DELIBERATELY attacking a UN compound could potentially
>be a war crime.  Missing a legitimate military target by 300 yards would not 
>be.  So, you'd have to somehow show that the attack on the civilian compound 
>was deliberate.  It's the difference between hitting somebody with a car by 
>accident and hitting them with intent.

Time magazine this week reports that Israel continued to shell civilians at
Qana AFTER the U.N. had told Israel that a massacre was underway.  Any
comments?

Furthermore, AFTER Israel slaughtered four young girls and two women in a
clearly marked ambulance, Lt. Gen Amnon Shahak defended the action, and
clearly implied that Israel would not hesitate to repeat it. Shahak has
also baldly admitted that Israel has deliberately terrorized nearly a half
million Lebanese civilians with the aim of pressuring Hezbollah. (That this
was an incredibly stupid policy, we will leave aside for moment).

Here's the info:

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May  3 19:10:41 PDT 1996
Article: 34521 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Guide to Effective Communication on the Usenet
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 19:26:48 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <318a5da3.22487726@news.cybercom.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1-9.cybercom.net
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Guide to Effective Communication on the Usenet

Do be:

-calm
-challenging
-cheerful
-civil
-concise
-cool
-factual
-fair
-friendly
-helpful
-open-minded
-original
-stimulating
-truthful
-understated

Do not be:

-abusive
-agitated
-angry
-boring
-bullying
-fanatical
-hot
-libelous
-obnoxious
-obsessive
-strident
-threatening
-uncivil
-untruthful

Above all, cool is better than hot in cyberspace, and the cooler the
better. Let plain and solid facts, not pumped up verbiage, speak for
themselves and communicate your emotion. Avoid all flames and feuds.

Search engines like Alta Vista, Deja News and Infoseek are now indexing and
cataloging nearly every word of every post in every Usenet newsgroup.

One has to assume these days that any Usenet post will be instantly
accessible anytime in the future by anyone in the world--family members,
friends, neighbors, lovers, coworkers, employers, enemies--anyone. Be
careful about what you write, because you will have to live with your words
forever.

Do not engage in conversations or arguments with abusive personalities or
fanatics--they will only manage to drag you down to their level and ruin
your ability to communicate effectively. Ignore them entirely. They are
already doing an effective job of destroying themselves and their causes.

Abusive and controlling personalities on the Usenet have no power whatever
to block messages they don't like by flooding newsgroups with personal
attacks. It is easy these days for intelligent users simply to filter out
and ignore users who engage in empty verbal violence. With the power of
advanced search and filtering technology, you have the power to reach your
audience without interference, obstructions or censorship

Similarly, intelligent users are likely to filter in and track closely the
posts of authors who provide reliable facts, useful information, original
insights and compelling analysis.

The Usenet provides an extremely powerful tool for anyone to communicate
their views to the entire world. We are witnessing the breakdown of the
centralized big media and the emergence of a new meritocratic world in
which multi-billion dollar companies and organizations will have no
advantage over individuals in reaching and influencing a global audience.
The more effectively you can communicate, the greater will be your
influence.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May  4 10:30:27 PDT 1996
Article: 47498 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!multiverse!ragnarok.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!rclnews.eng.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 04:08:32 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <318ad6df.23259787@news.cybercom.net>
References:  <4mei7q$ou9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Topics
-Jewish Anti-Arab Bigotry
-Jewish Anti-Palestinian Bigotry
-Jewish Claims of Ethnic Superiority

Notes
-If comments of this type were made by, say, the English or Germans about
Jews, there would be no hesitation in the Jewish community to classify them
as hate speech.

---BEGIN QUOTE---
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From: louisl5074@aol.com (LouisL5074)
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel's victims
Date: 3 May 1996 23:17:14 -0400
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Isn't it sad how the poor Palestinians had their land stolen.

As I recall, when the Zionists first returned to Israel, the bought land
>from  the wealthy Arab land owners, who sold them the poorest land they had
at the highest price.  Being dumb, city raised people, these stupid people
did not know you cannot grow crops on the land they bought.

However, being stupid, they cleared the land and made it bloom again, just
as ther Bible prophises.  

Now the Arabs feel cheated that these "shifty" Jews came and cheated him
out of his best land.

Come off it.  Admit that in the 1,000 or sop years the Arabs controled
Palestine, they did nothing but ruin the land.  They did nothing
productive.  In the 48 years Jews have controled the land, it has been
made to blossom.  Is there a bit of jeolesy here?
---END QUOTE---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May  4 14:47:34 PDT 1996
Article: 71956 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 04:08:32 GMT
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Topics
-Jewish Anti-Arab Bigotry
-Jewish Anti-Palestinian Bigotry
-Jewish Claims of Ethnic Superiority

Notes
-If comments of this type were made by, say, the English or Germans about
Jews, there would be no hesitation in the Jewish community to classify them
as hate speech.

---BEGIN QUOTE---
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From: louisl5074@aol.com (LouisL5074)
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel's victims
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Isn't it sad how the poor Palestinians had their land stolen.

As I recall, when the Zionists first returned to Israel, the bought land
>from  the wealthy Arab land owners, who sold them the poorest land they had
at the highest price.  Being dumb, city raised people, these stupid people
did not know you cannot grow crops on the land they bought.

However, being stupid, they cleared the land and made it bloom again, just
as ther Bible prophises.  

Now the Arabs feel cheated that these "shifty" Jews came and cheated him
out of his best land.

Come off it.  Admit that in the 1,000 or sop years the Arabs controled
Palestine, they did nothing but ruin the land.  They did nothing
productive.  In the 48 years Jews have controled the land, it has been
made to blossom.  Is there a bit of jeolesy here?
---END QUOTE---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May  4 16:04:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46902 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 18:56:53 GMT
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For more on the developing scandal concerning Israel's massacre of over 100
civilians at Qana, see today's CNN article at:

     http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9605/04/mideast.lebanon.wir/index.html

The most fascinating bit of new information is that apparently the Clinton
administration (no doubt under the pressure of the Israeli lobby) is
attempting to engineer a coverup of the U.N. report which found that Israel
commited this act deliberately, and not by accident. The problem is, too
many people now know about the report (including CNN's audience) to make
the coverup stick.

In other words, the mess of Operation Grapes of Wrath is hardly over, and
the U.S. government continues to be embarrassed and to be made to look
foolish by the actions of the Israeli government. Any attempts by the
Clinton administration to bury the report and lie about the incident will
only drag the U.S. deeper into the mud.

Clinton's anti-terrorism policy has been severely undermined by all this.
It's difficult to lecture the world about terrorism when your own
government is complicit with terrorist acts on the scale committed by the
Israeli government in Lebanon.

Once the damage to American policy and interests has been fully assessed in
this incident, and in many others like it, Israel may find that even its
closest friends in the American government have had quite enough. It just
seems to be one mess after another.

Let us note well, by the way, that not a single user in these newsgroups
who claimed that the massacre at Qana was accidental has addressed the
damning information in the Time and Reuters reports on the incident. There
has been a dead silence about those reports.

This is by now a familiar pattern: Israeli supporters go out on a limb to
defend Israeli actions and policies, only to have the limb sawed off. It
happened in the Lebanon invasion in 1982, in the Pollard affair, in the
Intifada....

You'd think that after being burned repeatedly, even true believers would
grow cautious in jumping to the defense of the Israeli government without
examining all the facts carefully. But they never seem to learn.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May  4 19:27:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71981 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 18:56:53 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.israel:32511 talk.politics.mideast:71981 alt.conspiracy:46902

For more on the developing scandal concerning Israel's massacre of over 100
civilians at Qana, see today's CNN article at:

     http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9605/04/mideast.lebanon.wir/index.html

The most fascinating bit of new information is that apparently the Clinton
administration (no doubt under the pressure of the Israeli lobby) is
attempting to engineer a coverup of the U.N. report which found that Israel
commited this act deliberately, and not by accident. The problem is, too
many people now know about the report (including CNN's audience) to make
the coverup stick.

In other words, the mess of Operation Grapes of Wrath is hardly over, and
the U.S. government continues to be embarrassed and to be made to look
foolish by the actions of the Israeli government. Any attempts by the
Clinton administration to bury the report and lie about the incident will
only drag the U.S. deeper into the mud.

Clinton's anti-terrorism policy has been severely undermined by all this.
It's difficult to lecture the world about terrorism when your own
government is complicit with terrorist acts on the scale committed by the
Israeli government in Lebanon.

Once the damage to American policy and interests has been fully assessed in
this incident, and in many others like it, Israel may find that even its
closest friends in the American government have had quite enough. It just
seems to be one mess after another.

Let us note well, by the way, that not a single user in these newsgroups
who claimed that the massacre at Qana was accidental has addressed the
damning information in the Time and Reuters reports on the incident. There
has been a dead silence about those reports.

This is by now a familiar pattern: Israeli supporters go out on a limb to
defend Israeli actions and policies, only to have the limb sawed off. It
happened in the Lebanon invasion in 1982, in the Pollard affair, in the
Intifada....

You'd think that after being burned repeatedly, even true believers would
grow cautious in jumping to the defense of the Israeli government without
examining all the facts carefully. But they never seem to learn.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May  5 01:03:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47626 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: The Rabin Assassination: A Conspiracy and Coverup?
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 01:21:33 GMT
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ysilver@panix.com (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>It later came out that the entire "incident"
>was a "made for TV staged drama"
>staged by the GOVERMNENT"S special
>GSS unit, whose job it was, was to discredit the opposition!
>GSS agent Avishai Raviv, is shown as the "lead actor" in the film!
>
>The GSS (ulike america's CIA which reports to congress as well as the
>executive) reported oNLY to the Prime ministers office (then Rabin)!
>
>So much for the propaganda!

Yehuda,

I agree with you that there appears to have been a conspiracy and a coverup
in the Rabin assassination. None of the peculiar questions about the
assassination and about Ravishai Aviv's role were answered by the Shamgar
Commission report.

But why have the Israeli and American media, and especially the political
opposition in Israel, failed to make an issue of these questions?

If the Labor government was involved in a conspiracy, wouldn't it be in the
interest of Likud to pursue the matter? But Likud has not uttered a word of
protest. They seem quite content to let the matter die.

Why?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May  5 23:50:07 PDT 1996
Article: 47698 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 16:27:03 GMT
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On Sun, 05 May 1996 10:42:25 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>The Jewish view of "Amalek" is defensive -- Amalek being those people 
>who try to exterminate Jews. 
>
>The last time I looked, Jews had the same rights of self-defense that 
>any other people did, Wayne (do you disagree?).

Roger,

I have no problem with legitimate self-defense practiced by Jews or any
other people.

The problem I have with Amalek is that it seems to convey the notion of
mass extermination or genocide. You will notice that Red Herring invoked
the myth of Amalek to justify the murder of women and children at Qana. I
have frequently seen Amalek used this way by Jewish fundamentalists and
Kahanists: to advocate blotting out utterly enemies of the Jews as groups
as peoples.

I have a problem with collective punishment, genocide and the murder of
innocents and civilians. I believe firmly in the sanctity of the individual
and in due process. Do you?

You might want to check out Yehoshafat Harkabi's discussion of Amalek in
his book "Israel's Fateful Hour."

Wayne



--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May  5 23:50:08 PDT 1996
Article: 47712 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 16:45:45 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>I don't think anyone is "stirring up a war" between the West and Islam 
>other than some Islamic leaders that couch all their positions in terms 
>of such a conflict.

Roger,

If you recall some of my past messages, you know I wouldn't hesitate to
back a war against Islamic fundamentalists by the West--IF THAT WAR WERE A
CASE OF WELL-JUSTIFIED SELF-DEFENSE.

For instance, when Iran threatened Salman Rushdie and Western publishers
and bookstores, I advocated using whatever military force was required to
eliminate the threat. They want a holy war, give 'em a holy war.

But problems arise when the West gets caught in the middle of hostilities
between Israel and Muslims, particularly conflicts in which Israel seems to
be as much or more the aggressor or guilty party as Islam.

Should the West slide into a war with Islam primarily because of actions by
Israel which are questionable? Many Americans are going to question that
proposition--probably a majority.

When Israel attacks hundreds of thousands of civilians in Lebanon, upsets
their lives, and offers rationalizations for the slaughter of civilians,
then many Americans will begin to understand why Muslims and Christians in
that region are angry and prepared to commit violence.

The more I think about the slide of Judaism and Jews into a global holy war
with Islam, the more I am convinced it is a bad idea for Jews. Israel,
Zionism, Judaism and the Jews should pull back from any further escalation
of this conflict immediately. I doubt that Jews will win this war if it
expands, and I doubt that they can count on the West to fall neatly into
place as allies, despite the best efforts of people like Ted Koppel.

Americans these days are much more interested in pushing the boundaries of
technology and breaking down the barriers between ethnic and religious
tribes than getting sucked into a destructive and useless religious war.
Israel is getting dangerously out of synch with the Western agenda and
Western interests when it becomes preoccupied with battling Islam.

If the Mideast has proved to be a mousetrap for the Jews (in the
formulation of British strategic thinkers earlier in the century), then I
think will this will be doubly true regarding conflict with Islam. It's a
no-win lose-everything situation for Jews.

It's time to go back to the drawing boards and reevaluate every aspect of
Zionism from the ground up.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May  5 23:50:09 PDT 1996
Article: 47731 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 19:56:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>> The more I think about the slide of Judaism and Jews into a global holy war
>> with Islam, the more I am convinced it is a bad idea for Jews. Israel,
>> Zionism, Judaism and the Jews should pull back from any further escalation
>> of this conflict immediately. I doubt that Jews will win this war if it
>
>That's hysteria and little if any content to justify it.  There is no 
>such war proposed nor will there be.

There is a systematic effort underway in powerful elements of the American
media to create hysteria about Islam. Ted Koppel, for instance, is
absolutely obsessed on the subject. What are Koppel's motives and agenda in
this propaganda campaign, do you imagine?

The recent move "Executive Decision" was the crudest and most defamatory
attack on a major world religion I have ever seen emanate from Hollywood.
If a similar movie were made about Judaism, the Jewish community would be
up in arms with angry charges about virulent anti-Semitism.

During the flap about Marlon Brando's recent remarks, I am surprised that
no one pointed out that Hollywood has been systematically defaming Arabs
and Muslims for years now. The producers of "Executive Decision" are guilty
of much worse sins than Marlon Brando.

The fact is, some Israelis and supporters of Israel in the West are trying
to exacerbate conflicts and tension between the West and Islam. The project
may well backfire. Westerners hate being pushed around by anyone or being
told who to hate. They are more likely to turn angrily on those attempting
to incite conflict than on those who are being targeted by the inciters.

I can imagine no plausible scenario in which Israel and Jews come out the
winner in war with the world's one billion Muslims. Perhaps you can sketch
out such a scenario.

Islam is not a belief system, like Nazism, which can easily be defeated and
discredited, and be made to go away. The world's one billion Muslims are
not going to be cowed or beaten into submission by Israelis or supporters
of Israel. They are not going to go away and neither is Islam. The West is
going to have to learn to live with Islam.

The fact that Israel's war with the Arabs is gradually escalating into a
much more dangerous war between Jews/Judaism and Islam is evidence that the
Zionist experiment seems to be sinking into a deeper and deeper hole with
each passing year.

The messianic dreamers Moses Hess and Theodor Herzl envisioned none of
these horrific outcomes when they created Zionism, which is why I
increasingly bracket them with Bar Kokhba, Sabbatai Sevi and Karl Marx in
my mind. False messiahs. Royal screw-ups.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 00:19:43 PDT 1996
Article: 72005 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: The Rabin Assassination: A Conspiracy and Coverup?
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 01:21:33 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <318c0163.99691549@news.cybercom.net>
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ysilver@panix.com (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>It later came out that the entire "incident"
>was a "made for TV staged drama"
>staged by the GOVERMNENT"S special
>GSS unit, whose job it was, was to discredit the opposition!
>GSS agent Avishai Raviv, is shown as the "lead actor" in the film!
>
>The GSS (ulike america's CIA which reports to congress as well as the
>executive) reported oNLY to the Prime ministers office (then Rabin)!
>
>So much for the propaganda!

Yehuda,

I agree with you that there appears to have been a conspiracy and a coverup
in the Rabin assassination. None of the peculiar questions about the
assassination and about Ravishai Aviv's role were answered by the Shamgar
Commission report.

But why have the Israeli and American media, and especially the political
opposition in Israel, failed to make an issue of these questions?

If the Labor government was involved in a conspiracy, wouldn't it be in the
interest of Likud to pursue the matter? But Likud has not uttered a word of
protest. They seem quite content to let the matter die.

Why?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 00:19:44 PDT 1996
Article: 72021 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 16:27:03 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <318cd6b9.1485420@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4ls2pl$dbm@tribune.concentric.net> <3181a91f.61068886@news.cybercom.net> <318CBE51.35CC@one.net>
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On Sun, 05 May 1996 10:42:25 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>The Jewish view of "Amalek" is defensive -- Amalek being those people 
>who try to exterminate Jews. 
>
>The last time I looked, Jews had the same rights of self-defense that 
>any other people did, Wayne (do you disagree?).

Roger,

I have no problem with legitimate self-defense practiced by Jews or any
other people.

The problem I have with Amalek is that it seems to convey the notion of
mass extermination or genocide. You will notice that Red Herring invoked
the myth of Amalek to justify the murder of women and children at Qana. I
have frequently seen Amalek used this way by Jewish fundamentalists and
Kahanists: to advocate blotting out utterly enemies of the Jews as groups
as peoples.

I have a problem with collective punishment, genocide and the murder of
innocents and civilians. I believe firmly in the sanctity of the individual
and in due process. Do you?

You might want to check out Yehoshafat Harkabi's discussion of Amalek in
his book "Israel's Fateful Hour."

Wayne



--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 00:19:44 PDT 1996
Article: 72027 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 16:45:45 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>I don't think anyone is "stirring up a war" between the West and Islam 
>other than some Islamic leaders that couch all their positions in terms 
>of such a conflict.

Roger,

If you recall some of my past messages, you know I wouldn't hesitate to
back a war against Islamic fundamentalists by the West--IF THAT WAR WERE A
CASE OF WELL-JUSTIFIED SELF-DEFENSE.

For instance, when Iran threatened Salman Rushdie and Western publishers
and bookstores, I advocated using whatever military force was required to
eliminate the threat. They want a holy war, give 'em a holy war.

But problems arise when the West gets caught in the middle of hostilities
between Israel and Muslims, particularly conflicts in which Israel seems to
be as much or more the aggressor or guilty party as Islam.

Should the West slide into a war with Islam primarily because of actions by
Israel which are questionable? Many Americans are going to question that
proposition--probably a majority.

When Israel attacks hundreds of thousands of civilians in Lebanon, upsets
their lives, and offers rationalizations for the slaughter of civilians,
then many Americans will begin to understand why Muslims and Christians in
that region are angry and prepared to commit violence.

The more I think about the slide of Judaism and Jews into a global holy war
with Islam, the more I am convinced it is a bad idea for Jews. Israel,
Zionism, Judaism and the Jews should pull back from any further escalation
of this conflict immediately. I doubt that Jews will win this war if it
expands, and I doubt that they can count on the West to fall neatly into
place as allies, despite the best efforts of people like Ted Koppel.

Americans these days are much more interested in pushing the boundaries of
technology and breaking down the barriers between ethnic and religious
tribes than getting sucked into a destructive and useless religious war.
Israel is getting dangerously out of synch with the Western agenda and
Western interests when it becomes preoccupied with battling Islam.

If the Mideast has proved to be a mousetrap for the Jews (in the
formulation of British strategic thinkers earlier in the century), then I
think will this will be doubly true regarding conflict with Islam. It's a
no-win lose-everything situation for Jews.

It's time to go back to the drawing boards and reevaluate every aspect of
Zionism from the ground up.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 00:19:45 PDT 1996
Article: 72030 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 19:56:40 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>> The more I think about the slide of Judaism and Jews into a global holy war
>> with Islam, the more I am convinced it is a bad idea for Jews. Israel,
>> Zionism, Judaism and the Jews should pull back from any further escalation
>> of this conflict immediately. I doubt that Jews will win this war if it
>
>That's hysteria and little if any content to justify it.  There is no 
>such war proposed nor will there be.

There is a systematic effort underway in powerful elements of the American
media to create hysteria about Islam. Ted Koppel, for instance, is
absolutely obsessed on the subject. What are Koppel's motives and agenda in
this propaganda campaign, do you imagine?

The recent move "Executive Decision" was the crudest and most defamatory
attack on a major world religion I have ever seen emanate from Hollywood.
If a similar movie were made about Judaism, the Jewish community would be
up in arms with angry charges about virulent anti-Semitism.

During the flap about Marlon Brando's recent remarks, I am surprised that
no one pointed out that Hollywood has been systematically defaming Arabs
and Muslims for years now. The producers of "Executive Decision" are guilty
of much worse sins than Marlon Brando.

The fact is, some Israelis and supporters of Israel in the West are trying
to exacerbate conflicts and tension between the West and Islam. The project
may well backfire. Westerners hate being pushed around by anyone or being
told who to hate. They are more likely to turn angrily on those attempting
to incite conflict than on those who are being targeted by the inciters.

I can imagine no plausible scenario in which Israel and Jews come out the
winner in war with the world's one billion Muslims. Perhaps you can sketch
out such a scenario.

Islam is not a belief system, like Nazism, which can easily be defeated and
discredited, and be made to go away. The world's one billion Muslims are
not going to be cowed or beaten into submission by Israelis or supporters
of Israel. They are not going to go away and neither is Islam. The West is
going to have to learn to live with Islam.

The fact that Israel's war with the Arabs is gradually escalating into a
much more dangerous war between Jews/Judaism and Islam is evidence that the
Zionist experiment seems to be sinking into a deeper and deeper hole with
each passing year.

The messianic dreamers Moses Hess and Theodor Herzl envisioned none of
these horrific outcomes when they created Zionism, which is why I
increasingly bracket them with Bar Kokhba, Sabbatai Sevi and Karl Marx in
my mind. False messiahs. Royal screw-ups.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 00:20:42 PDT 1996
Article: 41283 of control
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: cmsg cancel <318d036d.12931175@news.cybercom.net>
Control: cancel <318d036d.12931175@news.cybercom.net>
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--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 17:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 72074 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Israeli State Terrorism (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 18:01:40 GMT
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hazanfam@netvision.net.il wrote:

>I Just wanted to say that after all Israel is still 
>responsibale for the American interests in the 
>Middle-East. If Israel wasn't there, The U.S
>Would have to deal with all the Arab terrorist countries
>(Like Iran) By her self.
>Of course I don't justefie the killing in qana but the bombing
>came as a reaction for a threat on the Israeli-American
>common Intrest.

I fail to understand your logic.

>From  a purely practical standpoint, wouldn't the U.S. have much better
relations with Arab countries if Israel didn't exist or if the U.S. was not
tied to Israel in any way? In fact, American foreign policy experts opposed
Truman's recognition of Israel back in the late forties for precisely this
reason.

Generally all Israel has managed to do is complicate and damage relations
between the U.S. and the rest of the world. Thus we often see the U.S. and
Israel standing alone in the U.N. against the entire world, thanks to the
pressure of the Israeli lobby on the American government. This is hardly in
the interests of the U.S.

Btw, Iran is not an Arab country.

And I'm not sure what a "terrorist" country is. Israel has murdered many
thousands of civilians over the years deliberately, including old people,
women and children. It uses collective punishment and torture as official
tools of state policy. By any meaningful definition it also a "terrorist"
country. It terrorizes civilians and non-combatants to achieve its
political aims. The world has just seen an example of Israel's brand of
state terrorism in Operation Grapes of Wrath, in which a half million
civilians were driven from their homes and Lebanon's economic
infrastructure was maliciously savaged.

If Israel could achieve peace with its neighbors, which is the dream of
Peres (and one I support), then Israel could escape the vicious cycle of
tit-for-tat terrorist violence that is turning off the world and most
Americans. But the prospects of achieving this peace are quite dim, in my
opinion.

The longer the conflict drags on, the weaker grows Israel's position in the
community of nations.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 17:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 72077 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: An Attempted Coverup Re: the Qana Massacre?
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 18:53:16 GMT
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The latest from Reuter:

---BEGIN---
	 But the Independent said Boutros-Ghali might shy from ever  
releasing the report in full for fear of angering the United 
States which backs the Israeli explanation of events. 
---END---

If Israel were in the right on Qana, you would think it would be eager for
a full report of the incident to be made public.

But apparently Israel has something to hide and wants to bury the report.
Why?

What Israel can't hide is that it terrorized a half million civilians in
Lebanon in an embarassingly ineffectual attempt to hit guerrillas which
Israel itself created by its brutal actions in Lebanon since 1982.

That report can't be buried, and the world won't forget it for a long, long
time.
   	
It is very much in the national interest of U.S. to distance itself from
any illegal or terrorist activities by Israel against civilians in the
Middle East. Israel is helping to make not only itself a terrorist target,
but America and Americans as well. There is no good reason for Americans to
pay for Israel's poor judgement. Israel, and only Israel, should be forced
to live with the consequences of its actions.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May  6 17:40:26 PDT 1996
Article: 47269 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Israeli State Terrorism (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 18:01:40 GMT
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hazanfam@netvision.net.il wrote:

>I Just wanted to say that after all Israel is still 
>responsibale for the American interests in the 
>Middle-East. If Israel wasn't there, The U.S
>Would have to deal with all the Arab terrorist countries
>(Like Iran) By her self.
>Of course I don't justefie the killing in qana but the bombing
>came as a reaction for a threat on the Israeli-American
>common Intrest.

I fail to understand your logic.

>From  a purely practical standpoint, wouldn't the U.S. have much better
relations with Arab countries if Israel didn't exist or if the U.S. was not
tied to Israel in any way? In fact, American foreign policy experts opposed
Truman's recognition of Israel back in the late forties for precisely this
reason.

Generally all Israel has managed to do is complicate and damage relations
between the U.S. and the rest of the world. Thus we often see the U.S. and
Israel standing alone in the U.N. against the entire world, thanks to the
pressure of the Israeli lobby on the American government. This is hardly in
the interests of the U.S.

Btw, Iran is not an Arab country.

And I'm not sure what a "terrorist" country is. Israel has murdered many
thousands of civilians over the years deliberately, including old people,
women and children. It uses collective punishment and torture as official
tools of state policy. By any meaningful definition it also a "terrorist"
country. It terrorizes civilians and non-combatants to achieve its
political aims. The world has just seen an example of Israel's brand of
state terrorism in Operation Grapes of Wrath, in which a half million
civilians were driven from their homes and Lebanon's economic
infrastructure was maliciously savaged.

If Israel could achieve peace with its neighbors, which is the dream of
Peres (and one I support), then Israel could escape the vicious cycle of
tit-for-tat terrorist violence that is turning off the world and most
Americans. But the prospects of achieving this peace are quite dim, in my
opinion.

The longer the conflict drags on, the weaker grows Israel's position in the
community of nations.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu May  9 07:11:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35207 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:18:22 GMT
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http://www.jewish.com:80/bk960426/1awrath.htm

David Landau, "Operation Grapes of Wrath May Become Disaster for Peres," in
The Jewish Bulletin, April 26, 1996: 

...
Peres insisted that the officers involved did not know that the U.N. camp
was serving as a temporary shelter for hundreds of refugees.

But the camp was shown on Israeli and international television the night
before, a sad comment on the standards of Israeli military intelligence
during this ill-starred operation.
...

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:26 PDT 1996
Article: 47963 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Shelling Kills 74 at UN Base!!!
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 22:05:50 GMT
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Steven Brener  wrote:

>Assuming for a moment that it was on purpose, what could hitting a
>refugee camp possibly get Israel outside of international scorn and more
>enemies?

1. The satisfaction of wreaking vengeance for the bus bombings in Israel.

2. Further terrorizing of the civilian population of Lebanon in an effort
to beat them into submission.

Consider how much violence Israel has committed against civilians in the
past, regardless of world opinion or whether it was making many new
enemies. The behavioral pattern is there for anyone who cares to study
Israel's history.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48245 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Rabin's Granddaughter on Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:47:14 GMT
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[From Reuters:]

---BEGIN---
...
	 Her book ``In the Name of Sorrow and Hope,'' published in  
several countries this week, is a lively, touching portrait of a 
grandfather who was also prime minister. 

	 It accuses extremist rabbis and other ``fanatics'' of  
holding the gun that killed him on Nov. 4....

	 She writes that she cannot ignore the climate which made her  
grandfather's murder possible, and recalls television pictures 
of a young man, Bible in one hand and revolver in the other, 
screaming hatred and death threats against Rabin. 
...
---END---
 	
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48288 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: The Coming Wave of Jewish Libertarianism
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:46:35 GMT
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There is a nice profile of Howard Jonas, the founder of the highly
successful Internet company International Discount Communications, on the
Jewish Communication Network's Newsstand at

     http://www.jcn18.com/newstand/kalish/jonaspie.htm

The title of the article is "A Jewish Bill Gates?"

Excerpt:

---BEGIN---
Jonas has managed to find enough time to write a book for Doubleday that is
tentatively titled "David vs. Goliath: A Battle Plan for the Digital Age."
The book will set forth his business, political and religious philosophy,
which are very much interconnected. 

      "Basically, I think the Torah is a libertarian document," says Jonas,
who describes himself as an "arch libertarian" who opposes "any form of
censorship on the Internet." 

      To Jonas, America is a libertarian promised land with Torah values.
"I was probably an American before I was a Jew," he says, but regretfully
acknowledges that "if the Bill of Rights came up for a vote today, it
wouldn't pass." 

      Jonas' commitment to libertarian ideals has found an expression in
cyberspace. He created the Digital Freedom Network, an online forum to
disseminate writing banned in China, Indonesia, Iran and other countries
that violate human rights. 
--END---

My guess is that minds like Jonas's are on the cutting edge of Jewish
thought these days, and that the many libertarian strains in the Jewish
tradition are going to prove a more viable foundation for organizing Jewish
life than Zionism, the Holocaust or socialism.

Mitch Kapor, who I believe is also Jewish, has also written eloquently
about the libertarian character of the information revolution sweeping the
world.

(Note well: "libertarian" with a small "l", meaning a commitment to
personal freedom and human rights, not a dogmatic ideology.)

Thinking about how to enrich life for the human race by encouraging
individual creativity is probably a more productive and satisfying pursuit
over the long run than obsessing about how to exterminate Amalek.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48581 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Rabin Assassination: A Conspiracy and Coverup?
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 19:12:12 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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ysilver@panix.com (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>My comments on His grandduaghters staement, were limited 
>to something already well known and well publicized:
>
>Namely the "made for TV" by Avishai Raviv "movie" 
>of the staged "swearing in ceremony"
>
>And her misuse of it to attack everyone religious.
>
>If she weren't as dishonest as grandpa and grandma
>she would not use such a "scence' now known to be a fake!

If in fact she did use that incident in the book (I haven't read it), she
made a mistake and is possibly dishonest. It has been proven that it was
staged by the GSS.

Here's a speculation about the Rabin Assassination.

The evidence quite overwhelmingly indicates that some kind of conspiracy
was at work.

A possibility: Labor perhaps tried to set up and frame the religious right,
manipulating the useful idiot, Yigal Amir. The gun was supposed to contain
blanks. The right got wind of the conspiracy, and did a number on Labor by
replacing the blanks with real bullets.

Ravishai Aviv may have been a double agent (while working for the Labor
faction of the GSS he may have maintained close ties to the Shamir camp),
or the right may have kept close tabs on Aviv's communications and comings
and goings and learned of the plot without his knowledge.

This scenario would explain a stalemate in which neither Labor nor Likud
wants to exploit the assassination politically and in which both sides want
to bury any real investigation. Perhaps they are BOTH guilty. Perhaps any
further revelations would damage not so much Labor or Likud, but Israel in
its entirety.

Did you notice how quickly the campaign against the religious right by
Labor cooled down once Ravishai Aviv's role in the affair was made public?

This is just one scenario of a number of plausible scenarios.

As Josh Backon rightly pointed out within hours of the assassination,
something smells.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48800 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Coming Wave of Jewish Libertarianism
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 18:05:50 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>Libertarianism sucks.

Libertarianism tends to be upsetting to messianic personality types who feel
that government is a useful tool for dictating to other people how to run their
lives. Some people feel they have a divine or deterministic right to control
other people on the basis of a doctrine or ideology.

I think it's likely that the next major wave in Jewish thinking is going to
emphasize Thomas Jefferson more than Theodor Herzl or Karl Marx, and for a
simple reason: Jeffersonianism has been much kinder to the Jews than Zionism or
militant socialism. Marxism was a catastrophe, and Zionism increasingly appears
to be a nightmare.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48806 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.palestine
Subject: Re: Israeli Shelling Kills 74 at UN Base!!!
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 17:20:08 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <3192243a.502768@news.cybercom.net>
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Steven Brener  wrote:

>Excerpts from netnews.soc.culture.jewish: 6-May-96 Re: Israeli Shelling
>Kills .. Wayne McGuire@cybercom.n (685)
>
>> Steven Brener  wrote:
>
>> >Assuming for a moment that it was on purpose, what could hitting a
>> >refugee camp possibly get Israel outside of international scorn and more
>> >enemies?
>
>> 1. The satisfaction of wreaking vengeance for the bus bombings in Israel.
>
>> 2. Further terrorizing of the civilian population of Lebanon in an effort
>> to beat them into submission.
>
>
>I disagree.  Bombing a UN refugee camp is one way to accomplish this,
>but perhaps the most foolish way.  I think that the Israelis know better
>than to bomb a camp for such purposes.

But one has seen Israel perform no end of foolish actions over recent
decades, right? Why not another one?

The Lavon Affair, The U.S.S. Liberty  Affair, the '82 invasion of Lebanon,
the Pollard Affair, Iran-Contra, the response to the Intifada, Operation
Grapes of Wrath itself in its entirety. The messianic strain within Israeli
political culture repeatedly causes Israel to shoot itself in both feet. No
doubt it will continue to do so, and in ways which further undermine
Israel's position in the world. You can bet on it.

The latest now: Peres is railing against "the goyim," and sounding very
much like Menachem Begin at his most paranoid and crudely bigoted.
Apparently "the goyim," and not the Israeli government, including Peres,
are responsible for the fiasco of Operation Grapes of Wrath.

Israel terrorizes the entire civilian population of Lebanon, with the
entirely predictable result that dozens of women and children are
massacred, and its time to start spraying hatred at the evil goyim.
Israel is the victim once again, supposedly, not the civilians of Lebanon.

If the most enlightened leader in the history of Israel sounds this way,
Israel is in deeper trouble than many people thought.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48807 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Shelling Kills 74 at UN Base!!!
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 17:20:11 GMT
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jb019a@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Jonathan David Byrd) wrote:

>	Going back to your original question, I think the biggest difference
>now is the NET.  Before when Israel did these things, it was up to American
>papers and the Evening News to disseminate info. and they would never do
>that against Israel.  Now they have no choice because if they don't run
>stories about Israel it just exposes their bias.  The US State Dept. has not
>figured this out yet and is why they look so biased to begin with.

The Internet is going to be absolutely devastating to the traditional
propaganda system that Israel has employed in the U.S. for decades now.
I wonder if Israel and the Israeli lobby fully comprehend just how
devastating. No longer can they control the dissemination and presentation
of news in the U.S., and the parameters and flow of debate. Much of the
information they have suppressed over the years is now going to come
bubbling to the surface.

Big media outlets like The New York Times now have no more power to reach
the world than individuals. They are just another Web site, and have to
stand or fall by their ability to debate the issues in a completely open
forum. No longer can they rig the game and preach at their audience in a
one-to-many information structure. In a many-to-many information world,
they've got to get down in the trenches and make their case convincingly in
fair and open debate. The free ride is over. On many issues they are going
to be creamed.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 09:35:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48825 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 18:19:19 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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---begin Reuter excerpt---
	 ``Operation Grapes of Wrath (Israel's codename for the  
Lebanon blitz) proves that the United Nations cannot be 
trusted,'' Peres was quoted by Israel's Itim news agency as 
telling a gathering of Defense Ministry workers. 
	 ``Ben-Gurion's saying: 'It is not important what the goyim  
(non-Jews) say, it's important what the Jews do' has proved 
itself here in all its sharpness,'' Peres said, referring to the 
first prime minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion. 
---end Reuter excerpt---

Can this be an accurate quote from Peres? It sounds more like Menachem Begin or
Rabbi Meir Kahane than Shimon Peres.

It sounds like Peres has lost it, under the stress of his failed policy in
Lebanon.

How handy it is to blame outsiders for your own mistakes. Any fool could have
told you that terrorizing the civilian population of Lebanon would end up with
Israel portrayed as the villain in the world media.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 11:23:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72137 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israel's Explanations for the Qana Massacre
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:18:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Time Magazine Daily at

     http://pathfinder.com/time/daily/

for May 6 presented the developing Qana massacre scandal as its lead story.

Time gives the clear implication that Israel is lying on a number of points
about its behavior at Qana, and that the U.S. is attempting to cover up the
truth.

Since the crude coverup effort is now fully visible to the entire world, it
is only compounding the original mess.

The U.S. continues to suffer global embarrassment from its involvement with
Israel's Operation Grapes of Wrath.

Those advisors in the U.S. government who most strongly advocated
supporting Israel in this terrorist venture should be clearly identified
and fired. One wouldn't be surprised to discover that most of them have
close ties to Israel and have long ago stopped thinking very carefully
about American values and interests. It seems likely that, among others,
Martin Indyk, the U.S. ambassador to Israel, has a good deal of explaining
to do.

Bill Clinton enjoys ultimate responsibility for the entire mess on the
American side. How he managed to become a conspicuous public apologist for
the murder of women and children will no doubt be quite a story for those
journalists and historians who dare to look into the matter.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 11:23:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72152 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Rabin's Granddaughter on Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:47:14 GMT
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[From Reuters:]

---BEGIN---
...
	 Her book ``In the Name of Sorrow and Hope,'' published in  
several countries this week, is a lively, touching portrait of a 
grandfather who was also prime minister. 

	 It accuses extremist rabbis and other ``fanatics'' of  
holding the gun that killed him on Nov. 4....

	 She writes that she cannot ignore the climate which made her  
grandfather's murder possible, and recalls television pictures 
of a young man, Bible in one hand and revolver in the other, 
screaming hatred and death threats against Rabin. 
...
---END---
 	
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 11:23:40 PDT 1996
Article: 72227 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Rabin Assassination: A Conspiracy and Coverup?
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 19:12:12 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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ysilver@panix.com (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>My comments on His grandduaghters staement, were limited 
>to something already well known and well publicized:
>
>Namely the "made for TV" by Avishai Raviv "movie" 
>of the staged "swearing in ceremony"
>
>And her misuse of it to attack everyone religious.
>
>If she weren't as dishonest as grandpa and grandma
>she would not use such a "scence' now known to be a fake!

If in fact she did use that incident in the book (I haven't read it), she
made a mistake and is possibly dishonest. It has been proven that it was
staged by the GSS.

Here's a speculation about the Rabin Assassination.

The evidence quite overwhelmingly indicates that some kind of conspiracy
was at work.

A possibility: Labor perhaps tried to set up and frame the religious right,
manipulating the useful idiot, Yigal Amir. The gun was supposed to contain
blanks. The right got wind of the conspiracy, and did a number on Labor by
replacing the blanks with real bullets.

Ravishai Aviv may have been a double agent (while working for the Labor
faction of the GSS he may have maintained close ties to the Shamir camp),
or the right may have kept close tabs on Aviv's communications and comings
and goings and learned of the plot without his knowledge.

This scenario would explain a stalemate in which neither Labor nor Likud
wants to exploit the assassination politically and in which both sides want
to bury any real investigation. Perhaps they are BOTH guilty. Perhaps any
further revelations would damage not so much Labor or Likud, but Israel in
its entirety.

Did you notice how quickly the campaign against the religious right by
Labor cooled down once Ravishai Aviv's role in the affair was made public?

This is just one scenario of a number of plausible scenarios.

As Josh Backon rightly pointed out within hours of the assassination,
something smells.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 11:23:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72232 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: America's Embarrassment in the Mideast
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 17:44:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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The Clinton Administration has foolishly locked the U.S. into the
self-destructive position of backing the Israeli government, no matter what
it does. Thus the State Department has now come out officially and attacked
the U.N. for stating an obvious truth: there is strong evidence to suggest
that Israel's attack on Qana was deliberate.

Note well the failure of the State Department, and especially Nicholas
Burns, to address any of the details and questions in the U.N. report, and
especially any of the numerous lies in which Israel has been caught. If
Burns attempted to justify his position on the Internet in fair and open
debate, the emptiness of his information and arguments would be quickly
exposed.

Consequences: the U.S. now looks stupid and immoral. Clinton's rhetoric
about terrorism looks like hypocritical posturing. The U.S. government
looks to the world like it is entirely subservient to and controlled by the
Israeli government and the Israeli lobby.

Peres has gained nothing and lost a good deal. Much of the fine work he has
accomplished to restore Israel's good name has been erased.

Likud may think it has gained something politically by a situation in which
Peres has been damaged, but in fact it has been hurt worst of all: what has
been deeply discredited in this mess are any campaigns by Israel to attack
civilians in the Mideast. Israel's political capital in the U.S. and the
world has been drawn down yet again.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 11:23:42 PDT 1996
Article: 72267 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 18:19:19 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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---begin Reuter excerpt---
	 ``Operation Grapes of Wrath (Israel's codename for the  
Lebanon blitz) proves that the United Nations cannot be 
trusted,'' Peres was quoted by Israel's Itim news agency as 
telling a gathering of Defense Ministry workers. 
	 ``Ben-Gurion's saying: 'It is not important what the goyim  
(non-Jews) say, it's important what the Jews do' has proved 
itself here in all its sharpness,'' Peres said, referring to the 
first prime minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion. 
---end Reuter excerpt---

Can this be an accurate quote from Peres? It sounds more like Menachem Begin or
Rabbi Meir Kahane than Shimon Peres.

It sounds like Peres has lost it, under the stress of his failed policy in
Lebanon.

How handy it is to blame outsiders for your own mistakes. Any fool could have
told you that terrorizing the civilian population of Lebanon would end up with
Israel portrayed as the villain in the world media.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 17:24:01 PDT 1996
Article: 35960 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lessons of the Holocaust (the Qana Massacre)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 19:15:20 GMT
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Message-ID: <31939599.3218072@news.cybercom.net>
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Israeli gunners say no regrets over Qana shelling

(Adds details, Israeli army, government spox comment) By Susan Sappir 
JERUSALEM, May 10 (Reuter) - Israeli gunners
have said they had no regrets over killing more than 100 civilians 
sheltering in a U.N. base in southern Lebanon because the
dead were "just a bunch of Arabs".

A soldier identified as Sergeant "Y" was quoted by the Jerusalem weekly 
Kol Ha'ir as saying: "It's a war, in a war these
things happen...It's just a bunch of Arabs".

"Y", in his reference to Arabs, used the Hebrew derogatory term 
"Arabushim" which has no English equivalent.

The soldiers said they were firing at guerrillas near the U.N. camp at 
Qana and that it had been a mistake to hit the camp
where hundreds of refugees were sheltering.

More than 100 men, women and children were killed in the massacre which 
took place during a 17-day Israeli blitz against
Hizbollah guerrillas last month.

A U.N. report this week said it appeared unlikely the slaughter was by 
accident. Israel, which has given varying versions of
what happened, insists it was a mistake.

Another soldier from the artillery battery said the commander gathered 
his troops after the shelling for a talk.

"He told us, 'This is war. For God's sake, the shits are shooting at you. 
What are you going to do?' He said we were
shooting well and to continue this way, and that Arabs, you know, there 
are millions of them," the soldier, identified as "A",
was quoted as saying.

An official army spokesman statement issued on Friday in reaction to the 
newspaper report questioned its accuracy.

"It is impossible to know whether this is an accurate version or a 
distorted hearsay testimony," the statement said.

"Either way, anonymous comments by one speaker or another don't change 
the fact the tragic shooting was done by mistake
since the army didn't know there were civilians at the Qana camp." Kol 
Ha'ir Editor Ruth Yovel told Reuters the newspaper
had the full names and phone numbers of each of the speakers. Yovel said 
Kol Ha'ir had asked the army earlier in the week
to comment on the article but the army spokesman chose not to do so.

"The reporter said he is ready to take a polygraph test," Yovel added. 
"Let the army prove it's not true." Israeli government
spokesman Uri Dromi said: "If anyone expressed themselves like this this 
is terribly disturbing." He stressed all Israeli officials
commenting on the incident had expressed regret.

"And I believe they were speaking for the vast majority of Israelis," 
Dromi added.

Some soldiers and officers quoted in the newspaper explained their 
indifference to the Qana deaths by saying: "We had a lot
of civilians killed too." When the reporter pointed out that no Israelis 
were killed during the Lebanon operation, the soldiers
said they were referring to all the years of the Israeli-Arab conflict.

Soldier "A", recalling Moslem militant suicide bombings on Tel Aviv's 
main street in 1994 and 1996, said: "A bunch of Arabs
died and they made a big deal about it in the whole world. Why? When we 
had dead on Dizengoff, did they also make so
much noise?" 

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 17:52:35 PDT 1996
Article: 49114 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Coming Wave of Jewish Libertarianism
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 19:03:35 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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jburton@nwu.edu (Joshua W. Burton) wrote:

>lisa@interport.net (Lisa Aaronson) wrote:
>> wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>> 
>> >Some people feel they have a divine or deterministic right to
>> >control other people on the basis of a doctrine or ideology.
>> 
>> Oh, gross!  I have to agree with McGuire?  Yuck.
>
>I think you're off the hook.  Judaism (normative, at least; I'm
>no talmid of your Randite/Velikovskian variant) frequently gives
>you a divine right, and a halakhic obligation, to control other
>people on the basis of a doctrine or ideology.  Say, for instance,
>when they are your children.  Say, for instance, when they are
>toshavim in Eretz Yisrael.

In other words, religion is often a handy device for expressing one's desire for
power and control over others. Authoritarian and totalitarian personality types
are often attracted to messianic belief systems, since they can always justify
their bad behavior with the explanation, "God made me do it."

The problem for Israel is this: the dominant trend in the West these days is
towards open systems--technologically, politically and culturally. Americans in
particular are in no mood to put up with authoritarians of any stripe, religious
or secular.

If Israel strays too far from the central trends of the West, it will quickly
collapse.

Religious fundamentalism, militant tribalism and doctrinaire socialism have
little appeal in the emerging Internet Nation. Efforts by authoritarians from
these various camps to impose their will on the West will probably be met with
problems beyond their wildest dreams. Look at the wall of angry resistance The
Simon Wiesenthal Center ran into when it attempted to acquire political control
over the Internet with its calls for censorship.

Lisa Aaronson, btw, has made it quite clear in the past that she is a much
bigger fan of Dr. Baruch Goldstein than Thomas Jefferson. It comes as no
surprise that someone who would support the massacre of civilians in their house
of worship would hate any political system which valued individual human rights
and due process. Unfortunately Israel as a whole is a nation which prizes
collective punishment and disdains due process.

In a competition with American libertarianism, I doubt that Zionism stands much
of a chance. Universalist philosophies usually enjoy more appeal than tribalist
programs. Tribalist programs in their innate nature tend to alienate the rest of
the world.

Judaism stands a better of chance of survival than Zionism, but only if it
manages to find common ground with the best contemporary thinking about ethics
and social organization.

Any form of Judaism, however, which is just an excuse for a self-appointed
priesthood to control the lives of others is probably not going to be very
appealing or successful in Israel (if Israel survives) or anywhere else.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 10 17:52:37 PDT 1996
Article: 49142 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 20:44:56 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>Wayne-
>Goyim means "(the) Nations" implying those nations other than the nation
>of Israel.
>It can mean radically different things in the context of a political
>speech or a personal one.

Quite frequently it is an abusive, insulting and bigoted word, equivalent to
"niggers" or "kikes." In the mouths of some Jews, it can be a highly racist
term. I doubt that Peres used the word in this way (assuming the translation of
his remarks is accurate), but he does seem to be slipping into an "us against
the world" mentality which I thought he and Rabin were trying to avoid.

Peres shouldn't blame "the goyim" or "the nations" or The United Nations for
Israel's bungled policies in Lebanon. It's time for Israel to start assuming
full responsibility for its own mistakes and stop blaming others.

>However, wayne the problem is, that I will never agree with your postings.
>(Since) you will never under any circumstances afford Israel the right to
>smash it's enemies or attackers...

But this is untrue. Israel has every right to defend itself legitimately against
attacks. What I oppose are terrorist campaigns conducted against civilians,
collective punishment, torture, disdain for due process, double standards in the
application of justice, occupation of the territory of others, etc. It has
become more and more difficult to justify many of Israel's actions policies and
actions.

In the larger scheme of things, I seriously wonder whether Zionism as a whole
won't prove to be a gigantic mistake, perhaps even the worst catastrophe in
Jewish history. It's a legitimate speculation, I believe, and more Jews should
start thinking about it.

Is Theodor Herzl someone in whom you really want to entrust your entire heritage
and future? Was his judgement sound? That's what the Zionist question is going
to boil down to. Was Herzl a true prophet or a false messiah. The signs of false
messiahship are already abundant, in my opinion. The man and his visions were
half-baked. And now Jews are paying a heavy price for not applying a more
skeptical intelligence to the entire Zionist ideology and program.

Salvaging Jewish civilization from the wreckage of Zionism could prove to be a
major preoccupation in the 21st century.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May 11 08:53:59 PDT 1996
Article: 370648 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,soc.right.human
Subject: Re: Video shows Israel targeted base, U.N. spokesman says
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:32:31 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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mie@ix.netcom.com(Daniel S. Epstein ) wrote:

(quoting from the Irish Times:)

>It would be quite unsatisfactory for the investigation into the Qana
>massacre to become bogged down in partisan argument over the rights
>and wrongs of Operation Grapes of Wrath. There is a marked contrast
>between the positions of the US and European governments, including
>the Irish Government, on the matter. The US badly compromised its role
>as a broker of Middle East peace by its uncritical attitude towards
>the quite disproportionate Israeli bombardments of southern Lebanon,
>and now by taking Israel's side in so pronounced a manner in
>criticising this report.  The European governments should press the
>case for an international inquiry into the massacre which could assess
>all the evidence and make recommendations on who is to blame for the
>massacre.

Dan, 

Congratulations on contributing consistently high quality posts. I've added your
name to my watch list, since all your posts are worth reading carefully.

The paragraph above from The Irish Times touches on one of the key issues of
Operation Grapes of Wrath: how in the world did the U.S. allow itself to become
so isolated from the rest of the world on Mideast policies? I hope a current
insider in the Clinton administration someday spills the beans in his or her
memoirs about what happened in the NSC and State Department in the aftermath of
Qana. Surely there must have been a good deal of vigorous dissent from the line
that Clinton and Christopher decided to pursue.

One's main impression of Clinton's response to the Qana massacre: totally unreal
and shocking. It's like the U.S. government now inhabits another plane of being
>from  the rest of the world. A screw is loose in the Clinton Administration
regarding this issue, especially when you consider that Clinton has made such a
very big deal about combatting terrorism.

Somehow Clinton and Christopher have gotten seriously out of touch with both
world and American opinon. Nearly every major newspaper in the U.S. has been
strongly critical of Israel's recent actions in Lebanon. Clinton stands almost
totally alone with the Israeli government and its lobby.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May 11 10:40:05 PDT 1996
Article: 72343 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 20:44:56 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <3193a732.7723679@news.cybercom.net>
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>Wayne-
>Goyim means "(the) Nations" implying those nations other than the nation
>of Israel.
>It can mean radically different things in the context of a political
>speech or a personal one.

Quite frequently it is an abusive, insulting and bigoted word, equivalent to
"niggers" or "kikes." In the mouths of some Jews, it can be a highly racist
term. I doubt that Peres used the word in this way (assuming the translation of
his remarks is accurate), but he does seem to be slipping into an "us against
the world" mentality which I thought he and Rabin were trying to avoid.

Peres shouldn't blame "the goyim" or "the nations" or The United Nations for
Israel's bungled policies in Lebanon. It's time for Israel to start assuming
full responsibility for its own mistakes and stop blaming others.

>However, wayne the problem is, that I will never agree with your postings.
>(Since) you will never under any circumstances afford Israel the right to
>smash it's enemies or attackers...

But this is untrue. Israel has every right to defend itself legitimately against
attacks. What I oppose are terrorist campaigns conducted against civilians,
collective punishment, torture, disdain for due process, double standards in the
application of justice, occupation of the territory of others, etc. It has
become more and more difficult to justify many of Israel's actions policies and
actions.

In the larger scheme of things, I seriously wonder whether Zionism as a whole
won't prove to be a gigantic mistake, perhaps even the worst catastrophe in
Jewish history. It's a legitimate speculation, I believe, and more Jews should
start thinking about it.

Is Theodor Herzl someone in whom you really want to entrust your entire heritage
and future? Was his judgement sound? That's what the Zionist question is going
to boil down to. Was Herzl a true prophet or a false messiah. The signs of false
messiahship are already abundant, in my opinion. The man and his visions were
half-baked. And now Jews are paying a heavy price for not applying a more
skeptical intelligence to the entire Zionist ideology and program.

Salvaging Jewish civilization from the wreckage of Zionism could prove to be a
major preoccupation in the 21st century.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May 11 10:40:06 PDT 1996
Article: 72357 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: The New York Times and the Qana Massacre
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 20:02:59 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Compare the coverage of the Qana Massacre controvery in The New York Times
and CNN.

Today (May 6) if you visit the Times' Front Page Quick Read, which is a
listing of their top stories, you will find no mention of the controversy.

If you turn to world news, you will find the official Israeli version of
events highlighted in
 
     Mapping Errors Led to Shelling of U.N. Base
          http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/front/israel-shelling.html

If you then visit CNN's Web site, you will find the controversy appearing
near the top of the list of lead stories:

     Video Shows Israel targeted base, U.N. spokesman says
          http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9605/06/israel.video/index.html

One might reasonably suspect that The New York Times is collaborating with
the government of Israel and the Clinton Administration in trying to cover
up the truth about Qana.

The Internet is going to make it very difficult for The New York Times to
play these sorts of games these days and get away with them.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May 11 10:40:07 PDT 1996
Article: 72384 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,soc.right.human
Subject: Re: Video shows Israel targeted base, U.N. spokesman says
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:32:31 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 47
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References: <4mlefu$4kk@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <1996May8.232333.1@hujicc> <4mv37b$q7p@sun.sirius.com> <4n0bh4$dha@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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mie@ix.netcom.com(Daniel S. Epstein ) wrote:

(quoting from the Irish Times:)

>It would be quite unsatisfactory for the investigation into the Qana
>massacre to become bogged down in partisan argument over the rights
>and wrongs of Operation Grapes of Wrath. There is a marked contrast
>between the positions of the US and European governments, including
>the Irish Government, on the matter. The US badly compromised its role
>as a broker of Middle East peace by its uncritical attitude towards
>the quite disproportionate Israeli bombardments of southern Lebanon,
>and now by taking Israel's side in so pronounced a manner in
>criticising this report.  The European governments should press the
>case for an international inquiry into the massacre which could assess
>all the evidence and make recommendations on who is to blame for the
>massacre.

Dan, 

Congratulations on contributing consistently high quality posts. I've added your
name to my watch list, since all your posts are worth reading carefully.

The paragraph above from The Irish Times touches on one of the key issues of
Operation Grapes of Wrath: how in the world did the U.S. allow itself to become
so isolated from the rest of the world on Mideast policies? I hope a current
insider in the Clinton administration someday spills the beans in his or her
memoirs about what happened in the NSC and State Department in the aftermath of
Qana. Surely there must have been a good deal of vigorous dissent from the line
that Clinton and Christopher decided to pursue.

One's main impression of Clinton's response to the Qana massacre: totally unreal
and shocking. It's like the U.S. government now inhabits another plane of being
>from  the rest of the world. A screw is loose in the Clinton Administration
regarding this issue, especially when you consider that Clinton has made such a
very big deal about combatting terrorism.

Somehow Clinton and Christopher have gotten seriously out of touch with both
world and American opinon. Nearly every major newspaper in the U.S. has been
strongly critical of Israel's recent actions in Lebanon. Clinton stands almost
totally alone with the Israeli government and its lobby.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May 12 11:12:45 PDT 1996
Article: 49413 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Coming Wave of Jewish Libertarianism
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 19:18:21 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>You certainly have a very odd conception of political philosophy.  I
>wonder where you got your ideas...Soldier of Fortune magazine, a LaRouche
>rally, or by reading Rawls, Nozick, and others.  I suspect it was not
>choice number three.  

In fact, I've read Rawls, Nozick and many other similar authors.

Dogmatic libertarianism bores me. I'm talking about non-dogmatic libertarianism.

Non-dogmatic libertarianism is simply highly skeptical of government and
collectivist movements. It emphasizes individual human rights and creativity
over power and projects exercised and controlled by states and committees.

In my mind, "The Federalist Papers" is the quintessential libertarian work.

Paul Johnson's "Modern Times" and R. J. Rummel's "Death by Government" probably
influenced me more in the direction of libertarianism (and especially skepticism
about government) than any other books. Johnson argues convincingly that
right-wing and left-wing totalitarianism and statism are two peas in a pod, and
Rummel points out that left-wing governments in particular murdered more than
100 million civilians in the twentieth century.

Zionism is profoundly rooted in Marxism and militant socialism. In fact, Moses
Hess is considered to be the intellectual godfather of both Communism and
Zionism. (I just learned in this newsgroup that Shimon Peres was a fan of Karl
Marx--fascinating.)

Communism has proven to be the most murderous political enterprise in human
history and a total failure economically and politically. Militant tribalism (a
key component of Zionism) has also produced pretty much nothing but grief for
the human race in the twentieth century. Nazism was an example of fusing
messianic tribalism with statism.

If you think that classical Zionism is remotely competitive with the kind of
libertarian culture emerging in Seattle or Internet Nation, I think you are
mistaken. Zionism in almost every respect is an exhausted and irrelevant
political philosophy. Certainly for most Americans it has no appeal whatever.
What it has come to mean in practice, it seems, is piles of mutilated bodies,
Jewish and Arab, on the nightly news, while one tries to eat dinner. The image
could hardly be more negative.

The more general idea that Jews should have a state of their own still strikes
me as desirable. But that state is going to have to conform with the best
political ideas in the Western world to have a chance at surviving, and it can't
be a source of endless problems for its patrons and allies.

>Once again, you are displaying a very simplistic comprehension of
>political philosophy.  To present Jefferson and "militant socialism" as
>the only two possible choices is utterly ridiculous and indefensible.

All politics basically boils down to how much power you are willing to transfer
>from  individuals to the state. If you read R. J. Rummel's "Death by Government,"
you will realize that the more power governments acquire, the more they abuse
fundamental human rights. After the many bloody crimes of the twentieth century,
many thoughtful people are understandably skeptical about government.

The least creative and most power-hungry personality types in the world tend to
be attracted to government. People full of messianic gas who want to use
government to redeem the world rarely can manage their personal affairs. And the
more they rant about altruism and saving the world, the more human destruction
they commit. The Soviet Union, which murdered many more innocents than even Nazi
Germany, is the best example of the phenomenon

Groups that are fond of big government are going to be in for a rocky ride in
the coming decades. Even Bill Clinton, a Democrat, declared a few months ago
that the era of big government is over.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 13 08:55:06 PDT 1996
Article: 49739 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 22:36:19 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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gjanoff@earth.law.tulane.edu wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>>In the larger scheme of things, I seriously wonder whether Zionism as a whole
>>won't prove to be a gigantic mistake, perhaps even the worst catastrophe in
>>Jewish history....
>>
>>Salvaging Jewish civilization from the wreckage of Zionism could prove to be a
>>major preoccupation in the 21st century.

>Anyone who says that Zionism is illegimate or wrong, while at the same 
>time does not belive at all national liberation movements are wrong, is 
>an anti-semeite, because he his discrimination by group.

Mr. Janoff,

You are illustrating nicely the deep problems that Zionism has run into.

I didn't say that Zionism was "illegitmate or wrong." I don't particularly know
what those terms mean, and the issue doesn't much interest me.

What does interest me is whether modern Zionism, as conceived and implemented by
Theodor Herzl and his followers, has a PRACTICAL chance of succeeding in the
long run.

That you would attempt to close off any inquiries into this subject by labelling
them as anti-Semitic is symptomatic of the lack of realistic and rational
thinking among so many Zionists.

White South Africans may well have throught that their political system was
legitimate and right: it still went under. Ancient Israelis may have thought
that God was on their side in their revolt against Rome: they still lost.

I think that if one stands back and looks objectively at the present state of
Zionism and Israel, and places it within the context of world history as whole,
serious questions will quickly surface about its chances of survival.

You might want to read a brilliant essay by Yoram Hazony in May's Commentary,
entitled "The Zionist Idea and Its Enemies," for a survey of a few of the major
problems that Zionism is currently facing. Hazony is the executive director of
the Shalem Center in Jerusalem. He has a remarkable ability to analyze the major
trends in contemporary Zionism with a cool head.

My own view now is that there is a high probability that Zionism and Israel are
going to go under, and quite possibly at any time. I don't claim to be a prophet
or genius at predicting events, but I have managed successfully to predict a few
major developments during recent years. The predictions are on the public
record.

Zionism's main problem is that it failed to anticpate the depth of resistance of
the natives in and around Palestine, and the degree to which the problems
created by this resistance would damage Jewish interests in areas of the world
of possibly far greater strategic significance for Jews than the Mideast.

All the latest survey research reveals that bright young Jews are inceasingly
being turned off by the problems of Zionism and Israel. Many of them believe
that their real interests and values lie in the West, and especially in the
U.S., not in the Mideast. Israel is increasingly irrelevant to their lives, and
too often an embarrassment. The Qana massacre and its crude attempted coverup
are only the latest of a long string of embarrassments.

These are not my opinons: they are facts. Traditional Zionists are going to have
to deal with these facts realistically, not wish them away.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 13 08:55:07 PDT 1996
Article: 49932 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:40:41 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <3196d93a.39778047@news.cybercom.net>
References: <31923590.4941081@news.cybercom.net>  <3193a732.7723679@news.cybercom.net> <4n0os0$jtg@news.nyu.edu>
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rlk8021@is.nyu.edu (Russell L. King) wrote:

> Herzl ain't no Shabbati Tzvi.

Hmmm....

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 13 11:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 72480 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 22:36:19 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <31966350.9586889@news.cybercom.net>
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gjanoff@earth.law.tulane.edu wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>>In the larger scheme of things, I seriously wonder whether Zionism as a whole
>>won't prove to be a gigantic mistake, perhaps even the worst catastrophe in
>>Jewish history....
>>
>>Salvaging Jewish civilization from the wreckage of Zionism could prove to be a
>>major preoccupation in the 21st century.

>Anyone who says that Zionism is illegimate or wrong, while at the same 
>time does not belive at all national liberation movements are wrong, is 
>an anti-semeite, because he his discrimination by group.

Mr. Janoff,

You are illustrating nicely the deep problems that Zionism has run into.

I didn't say that Zionism was "illegitmate or wrong." I don't particularly know
what those terms mean, and the issue doesn't much interest me.

What does interest me is whether modern Zionism, as conceived and implemented by
Theodor Herzl and his followers, has a PRACTICAL chance of succeeding in the
long run.

That you would attempt to close off any inquiries into this subject by labelling
them as anti-Semitic is symptomatic of the lack of realistic and rational
thinking among so many Zionists.

White South Africans may well have throught that their political system was
legitimate and right: it still went under. Ancient Israelis may have thought
that God was on their side in their revolt against Rome: they still lost.

I think that if one stands back and looks objectively at the present state of
Zionism and Israel, and places it within the context of world history as whole,
serious questions will quickly surface about its chances of survival.

You might want to read a brilliant essay by Yoram Hazony in May's Commentary,
entitled "The Zionist Idea and Its Enemies," for a survey of a few of the major
problems that Zionism is currently facing. Hazony is the executive director of
the Shalem Center in Jerusalem. He has a remarkable ability to analyze the major
trends in contemporary Zionism with a cool head.

My own view now is that there is a high probability that Zionism and Israel are
going to go under, and quite possibly at any time. I don't claim to be a prophet
or genius at predicting events, but I have managed successfully to predict a few
major developments during recent years. The predictions are on the public
record.

Zionism's main problem is that it failed to anticpate the depth of resistance of
the natives in and around Palestine, and the degree to which the problems
created by this resistance would damage Jewish interests in areas of the world
of possibly far greater strategic significance for Jews than the Mideast.

All the latest survey research reveals that bright young Jews are inceasingly
being turned off by the problems of Zionism and Israel. Many of them believe
that their real interests and values lie in the West, and especially in the
U.S., not in the Mideast. Israel is increasingly irrelevant to their lives, and
too often an embarrassment. The Qana massacre and its crude attempted coverup
are only the latest of a long string of embarrassments.

These are not my opinons: they are facts. Traditional Zionists are going to have
to deal with these facts realistically, not wish them away.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 13 11:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 72517 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:40:41 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <3196d93a.39778047@news.cybercom.net>
References: <31923590.4941081@news.cybercom.net>  <3193a732.7723679@news.cybercom.net> <4n0os0$jtg@news.nyu.edu>
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rlk8021@is.nyu.edu (Russell L. King) wrote:

> Herzl ain't no Shabbati Tzvi.

Hmmm....

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 13 14:13:44 PDT 1996
Article: 371890 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,soc.right.human
Subject: Re: Video shows Israel targeted base, U.N. spokesman says
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 19:48:09 GMT
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rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) wrote:

>In article <4n0bh4$dha@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Daniel S. Epstein   wrote:
>>
>>At what moral level would you place that person, Richard?
>>
>>Perhaps you should rethink your apologetics and fealty to an
>>aggressive and violent state and policies, Richard.
>
>   I shouldn't be surprised to see someone like you resorting to
>a personal attack in place of any sort of rational argument of the
>case at hand.  Since you don't want to address the issues of what 
>actually happened in the case of Qana, and seem beyond intelligent
>conversation you are just not worth the effort of taking seriously.
>
>  BTW, your method could be summarized as follows: exclude all fact and
>present the rest.  The Irish Times and Fisk as sources yet.  I couldn't
>condemn you any stronger.

About which facts were The Irish Times and Fisk mistaken, Mr. Thorne? Please
work through the list of mistaken facts one by one and enlighten us.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu May 16 13:10:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49530 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: A Conspiracy in the Rabin Assassination?
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 02:29:35 GMT
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Does anyone have any details on the information in the following book?

(From Arutz-7:)

5. NEW ASSASSINATION DETAILS REVEALED
A new book published this week in France provides new details 
on the story of the assassination of Yitzchak Rabin. The book, 
authored by prominent journalists Uri Dan and Dennis Eisenberg, 
elaborates on the recruitment of GSS secret agent Avishai Raviv, 
and on the information that the GSS gave to Mrs. Rabin 
immediately following the shooting that her husband was not 
harmed. The book was published by the prestigious publishing 
house "Belfonte."

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat May 18 07:35:40 PDT 1996
Article: 37598 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lessons of the Holocaust (Zionism, Racism and the Qana Massacre)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:50:21 GMT
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Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by
kalypso.cybercom.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA11946; Fri, 17 May 1996
16:38:23 -0400
From: MIDDLEEAST@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:16:53 -0400
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To: MIDDLEEAST@aol.com
Subject: "JUST A BUNCH OF DIRTY, DEAD ARABS" - MER Special

M I D - E A S T    R E A L I T I E S   -   S P E C I A L  
[To receive MER regularly please send a message to
MIDDLEEAST@AOL.COM with the words "Send MER".
     **********************************************************

		JUST A BUNCH OF DIRTY, DEAD ARABS

That the Israeli and Jewish people tolerate in their midst -- not to 
mention in the highest ranks of the army and political leadership in
Israel -- clearly racist and bigoted persons is shameful.  Once such
ideology is tolerated then the steps to repetitive repression, torture
and massacre are sadly not large ones.  There is, as painful as it is
to point this out, a clear path from Deir Yassein to Sabra and Shattila 
and now to Qana -- with many other "incidents" along the way.  Racism 
is unfortunately still rampant in much of contemporary Zionist thinking 
and action.  Just a few years ago a former Chief of Staff of the Israeli 
Army compared the Palestinians to "drugged cockroaches in a bottle."  
And just a few years later a former Prime Minister publicly likened 
the Palestinians to "grasshoppers".

Two very recent examples:

1)  In a Reuters news story, dateline Jerusalem May 10 
but not widely reported in the U.S., the following:

                      WE SHOT WELL AND WERE TOLD TO CONTINUE

	"ISRAELI GUNNERS HAVE SAID THEY HAD NO REGRETS OVER KILLING MORE 
	THAN 100 CIVILIANS SHELTERING IN A UNITED NATIONS BASE IN SOUTHERN
	LEBANON BECAUSE THE DEAD WERE 'JUST A BUNCH OF ARABS'.  A SOLDIER,
	IDENTIFIED AS SERGEANT Y, WAS QUOTED BY THE JERUSALEM WEEKLY KOL
	HA'IR AS SAYING 'IT'S A WAR, IN A WAR THESE THINGS HAPPEN... IT'S
	JUST A BUNCH OF ARABS'.  THE SERGEANT...USED THE HEBREW DEROGATORY
	TERM 'ARABUSHIM', WHICH HAS NO ENGLISH EQUIVALENT...  ANOTHER SOLDIER
	FROM THE ARTILLERY BATTERY SAID THE COMMANDER GATHERED HIS TROOPS
	AFTER THE SHELLING FOR A TALK...  HE SAID WE WERE SHOOTING WELL 
	AND TO CONTINUE THIS WAY, AND THAT ARABS, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
	MILLIONS OF THEM."

2)  In a message from the IL-TALK Forum to Mid-East Realities from an 
American Jew active on this forum:

	"DEAR ASS HOLES:

	HOW LONG ARE YOU GOING TO MILK THIS STORY?
	IT'S JUST A FEW DIRTY ARABS WHO DIED.  BIG DEAL."
      
     **********************************************************
      	
		MID-EAST REALITIES
	News, Information, & Analysis that 
	Governments, Interest Groups, and 
	the Corporate Media Do Not Want 
		You To Know!
          
To receive MER regularly message to MIDDLEEAST@aol.com with the words
"Send MER". The half-hour cable TV Program "Mid-East Realities" shows 
weekly on the Cable systems in the Washington, D.C. area.  For 
information about the program and how to have it shown in your local 
area send a message with the words "MER TV".
                      
      +      +     +    E  N  D    +   MERSPE39   +      +       

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:17 PDT 1996
Article: 51429 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 21:23:51 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> Without American support, Israel would disappear in a flash. Israel is totally
>> dependent on the support of Americans, including American Jews.
>
>That's just simply not true.

Why do you think this?

Let's imagine a scenario: pretend that it comes to light, say, that the Mossad
did in fact murder Vince Foster, as has been repeatedly alleged by various
sources on the Internet, and has been involved in other nasty conspiracies
against Americans. Imagine any scenario which you wish that could break the back
of relations between the U.S. and Israel.

If the U.S. were suddenly transformed into the enemy of Israel, instead of its
friend, what would be the position of Israel?

All American financial, political and military aid to Israel would cease. Israel
would stand totally alone in the world as the ultimate pariah, without a single
ally.

Given those circumstances, how many Diaspora Jews around the world would want to
move to Israel, or express any support for Israel?

How many Jews currently in Israel would want to remain in the Mideast? I think
there would be a strong likelihood of a major exodus of Jews from Israel to
anywhere in the world but the Mideast. The Mideast is now as appealing a home
for Jews as Germany was in the thirties. The hatred of Jews in that region of
the world is overwhelming, especially following the Qana massacre and the
ineffective efforts by Israel to explain it.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:18 PDT 1996
Article: 51448 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:04:13 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <319cbf1d.25395560@news.cybercom.net>
References: <31923590.4941081@news.cybercom.net>  <3193a732.7723679@news.cybercom.net> <31979326.10890638@news.netvision.net.il>  <4na0ol$9tb@uucp.intac.com> 
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moo@midtown.net (Bryan Cowan) wrote:

>I believe the only place I've seen the word *goy* or *goyim* used in a
>derogatory fashion was in the infamous forgery _The Protocols of the
>Learned Elders of Zion_, which was written by an antisemitic Russian to
>fan the flames. My guess is that the word *goyim* was used because to a
>person with no knowledge of Judaism it might sound vaguely derogatory,
>thus making it appear that Jews look upon non Jews with contempt-which was
>part of the point of the forgery anyway.

This is clearly false. I just posted six examples from reputable sources in
which the word "goyim" is used to express an attitude of contempt and hostility
towards non-Jews. I could easily post dozens more.

I wonder why so many people here are lying about the use of the term.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:19 PDT 1996
Article: 51548 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 21:14:28 GMT
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Message-ID: <319ce99e.36278258@news.cybercom.net>
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>Hm, any evidence that the Lubavitcher Rebbe had any anti-Black
>attitudes?

I recall seeing a number of articles in The Village Voice during various
commotions in Crown Heights which provided evidence of anti-black attitudes in
the Lubavitcher community. Perhaps I will look them up if I find the time.

>From  my own experience in cyberspace, I can report that nothing has matched the
vicious anti-black bigotry of some Orthodox Jews from Brooklyn and vicinity. One
such Orthodox Jew, who was also a vociferous supporter of Biblical Greater
Israel and Menachem Schneerson, compared the skin color of an African-American
to "shit." This was not an isolated incident of bigotry. There is an obvious
pattern, one which can be documented with a little effort.

You didn't address the larger point, regarding the meaning of the word "goyim."
Is it true that Hasidic doctrine and theology don't hold non-Jews to be equal
with Jews?

Be careful how you answer. The truth is easy to ascertain and reproduce on the
Internet.

You also had nothing to say about the five other posts which documented Jewish
bigotry and hatred towards "goyim."

As I recall, btw, Rabbi Ginsberg, who claims that the blood of Jews and goyim is
not the same, was strongly defended in two major Jewish publications on the
Internet: Shomrom News and Arutz-7.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:19 PDT 1996
Article: 51588 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 10:20:03 GMT
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bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan McKay) wrote:

>>How many ethnic groups starkly divide the world into two groups: us and all the
>>other ethnic groups in one indiscriminate mass? 
>
>Most of them do, whether or not they have a specific word for it.
>America is one of the worst countries in this regard.

It's always fun to be able to disagree you with on something, Brendan--that is a
rare occasion.

America is not an ethnic group. America is the ultimate collection of ethnic
groups. Because of this Americans are especially open to and tolerant of peoples
>from  all around the world, at least in my experience.

Regarding other particular ethnic groups: I have never in my life heard American
Anglos, American Italians, American Irish, American Swedes or any other ethnic
group refer pejoratively to the entirety of the human race which was not a part
of the ethnic group. I don't think these ethnic groups have words that are
analogous to the insulting and racist "goyim," and I don't think they view the
world in these primitive and hateful terms. If you have had other experiences,
please share them with us.

We just heard Shimon Peres, the head of Israel, refer disparagingly to the
"goyim." Can you picture George Bush or Bill Clinton referring disparagingly to
the entire sector of the human race that is not Anglo-Saxon?

Good lord--with attitudes like these coming out of the mouth of a relatively
enlightened man like Peres, no wonder Israel has so many problems with the
world. Anyone who thinks and talks this way is looking for big problems in his
or her human relations.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:20 PDT 1996
Article: 51589 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 10:32:55 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>Hm, any evidence that the Lubavitcher Rebbe had any anti-Black
>attitudes?

Perhaps the following post sheds some light on the subject:

---BEGIN---
05/15/96
Crown Hts, Brooklyn, NYC

Jewish vigilantes who beat an African-American man last week were indicted
by a grand jury today. Eli Rogatsky, 20, and Josef Prus, 39, face charges
of assault & criminal possession of a weapon for savagely beating handyman
Kenneth Hartley, 36, who is Black.

Hassidic residents stood by and did nothing when the vigilantes assaulted
Hartley in front of a crowd of pre-teens. Other area residents called
police, who then tried to arrest the vigilantes. The incident led to riots
by Hassidics till the wee hours of the morning, keeping Mayor Jiuliani up
all night trying to mediate.

According to the indictments, the pair, backed up by other Hassidics,
beat, punched and kicked Hartley and struck him with their radios. Eleven
other Jews were arrested in the all-night affair in the racially divided
neighborhood.

The Rev. Al Sharpton, who spoke on behalf of the victim, said the
indictments were "a good first step." "We're monitoring to make sure there
is no inappropriate plea-bargaining and that they go to trial and that
they prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law."

The Hassidics repeatedly referred to Hartley as a "Schwartze." Prus and
Rogatsky are members of the Shomrin Volunteer Patrol and confronted
Hartley in the mistaken belief his 8-year-old nephew had stolen a bicycle.
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:21 PDT 1996
Article: 51664 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 20:24:24 GMT
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>PS. I have learned Tanya.  I don't think one can say the Goyim are Satanic
>based on Tanya.  Sounds like Shahak is suffering from the title of his
>book of what you quote he is raving.

Is there an English translation of this work? Do you have a cite? I'll examine
it myself and reach my own conclusions.

In a review of a book about the Lubavitcher movement which appeared in The New
Republic some time ago, the reviewer also remarked that the Hasidim hold
virulently racist views towards non-Jews. I've seen the charge made repeatedly
in many reputable magazines and journals.

What most convinces me that Shahak is speaking truthfully is pondering the
literally thousands of racist posts from Orthodox Jews I have seen on the Usenet
over the years, all of which are fine examples of Jewish hate in cyberspace.
Clearly these people are learning their racism and imbibing their hatred from a
source or authority or doctrine.

People who hate others tend to attract others who hate them.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:22 PDT 1996
Article: 51698 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (The Lubavitchers)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 01:52:12 GMT
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According to an article in The New Republic, the founder of Lubavitch Hasidism
taught that non-Jews "derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous
than the Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels. . . . All
Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil. Jews were
the pinnacle of creation and served the Creator, gentiles its
nadir... Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently
evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to
Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing."

.qml
.book review excerpt

author=Allan Nadler
title=Despite All Odds: The Story of Lubavitch
magazine=The New Republic
date=May 4, 1992
volume=206
number=18
pages=27+

excerpt=

There is a sense in which these efforts at undermining the
secular character of American public life are perfectly
consistent with classical Habad theology. Hasidism's insistence
on the immanence of God in creation, and especially its mystical
refusal to acknowledge the reality of a purely physical realm of
existence bereft of holiness, abhors a saeculum. The idea of a
polity deliberately conceived as secular, that is, the idea of a
polity such as America's, is anathema to the mystic whose
theology does not allow for the reality of a profane realm of
existence. And yet there are some powerful ironies in Habad's new
messianic universalism, in its mission to the gentiles; and
surely the most unpleasant of them concerns Habad's otherwise
undisguised and even racial contempt for the "goyim."

In the normative rabbinic and Jewish philosophical traditions,
Israel's choseness was most commonly seen to derive from God's
revelation of the Torah at Mount Sinai. It was the uniqueness of
their religion, not of their race, that distinguished Jews from
others. Only a very small number of idiosyncratic medieval Jewish
theologians--most notably the poet and philosopher Judah Ha-Levi
in twelfth-century Spain and the mystic Judah Loewe in
sixteenth-century Prague--sought to define the Jewish distinction
racially rather than spiritually.

Yet it was precisely this minority view, according to which there
is something innately superior about the Jews, that was
rehabilitated in its most extreme form by Shneur Zalman of Lyady.
The founder of Lubavitcher Hasidism taught that there is a
difference of essence between the souls of Jews and the souls of
gentiles, that only in the Jewish soul does there reside a spark
of divine vitality. As for the goyim, here is Foxbrunner's
characterization of Shneur Zalman's attitude:

Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order.
They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Consequently, references to gentiles in Rabbi Shneur Zalman's
teachings are invariably invidious. . . . Their material
abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves
derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the
Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels. . . . All
Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil. Jews were
the pinnacle of creation and served the Creator, gentiles its
nadir and worshiped the heavenly hosts.

Shneur Zalman's racism far exceeded the much more limited
religious elitism of the few earlier rabbis who subscribed to a
racial theory of Jewish choseness. It is virtually without
precedent and without parallel in the history of Jewish thought.
Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently
evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to
Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing. The
obvious incompatibility of this racist view of the gentiles with
Habad's current missionizing to them is something that the
Lubavitchers have not even begun to acknowledge or to address.
These are matters that their partisan historians deliberately
obscure, as they cling to the myth that Habad Hasidism is
essentially ahistorical and impervious to change.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51753 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 07:48:29 GMT
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aberman@cs.washington.edu (Andrew Berman) wrote:

>The definition you quote is, of course, meaningless.  Peres was not
>speaking in English, Peres was speaking in Hebrew.  However the
>American Heritage Dictionary chooses to define what it means to
>use the term "goy" in English and in America, it has nothing to do
>with what it means to use the term in Hebrew and in Israel.

That Peres meant the term in a derogatory fashion is evident from the semantic
context his remarks. The tone that comes across against non-Jews, the goyim,
"the nations," and the United Nations (all the same thing in his mind
apparently) is one of contempt, hostility, bitterness and defiance. How evil of
the goyische UN to report the facts about the massacre at Qana, in which more
than twenty-five children under the age of 12 were slaughtered by the government
of Israel.

When Peres isn't under so much stress, he is probably more lucid and fair.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51754 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 07:54:23 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>>I recall seeing a number of articles in The Village Voice during various
>>commotions in Crown Heights which provided evidence of anti-black attitudes in
>>the Lubavitcher community. Perhaps I will look them up if I find the time.
>
>THis is irrelevant to Shahak's contention that the Lubavitcher Rebbe
>had "anti-Black attitudes"  I believe, and cited some things that indicate
>this is a 100% false claim.  The burden of proof is on Shahak to back this
>up.

As I recall, Schneerson didn't even have the decency to express his condolences
to the parents of the children which were run down by a car in his entourage.
How do you interpret that?

In any case, I just posted evidence from the New Republic proving that the
ideology of the Lubavitchers is drenched in hatred for non-Jews--that would
include the vast majority of African-Americans.

>>You also had nothing to say about the five other posts which documented Jewish
>>bigotry and hatred towards "goyim."
>
>I am free to address any issue I wish to.

Well, of course you are. But if you fail to deal with the totality of the
evidence, and focus on one peripheral detail, you will leave the strong
impression that you can't answer the main charge, to wit, that "goyim" is often
a derogatory and hate-filled term.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51755 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:01:25 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>This *is* and *should* be a separation between the various peoples.
>I find the hypocrisy within the concept of "universality" in both
>classical Islam and classical CHristianity to be sickengly hypocritical.
>Both regimes claim that we are all equal, we all have same souls, we should
>all love each other yet everyone knows that the intent of all this "love"
>is to submerge, absorb and then erase Jews into the "mainstream" universal
>religion.  Sorry, be we all do have *different* souls, and we will remain
>J*E*W*S.@!!!!!!  Jews actually do respect other peoples because we 
>allow this seperation...  the other attitudes of unversality are the
>ones that are really bent on erasing all the "small peoples", and
>"indigenous nations"

Wow. According to you, to be a Jew is to reject the notion that all human beings
share souls equally and should love one another. You also assert that Jews have 
"different" souls than the rest of the human race.

It is difficult to view this as other than a racist and discriminatory doctrine,
and one which inevitably arouse hostility in the world. Here we have a
quintessential expression of primitive messianic tribalism, one which is
profoundly at odds with all modern and enlightened views about ethics.

Here's a small hint: don't ask for favors from people whose souls you claim are
"different" from yours.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51756 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:03:21 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>> Is there an English translation of this work? Do you have a cite? I'll examine
>> it myself and reach my own conclusions.
>
>Evidently your way has been to reach your own conclusions first.

Let me ask again, since you didn't answer the question: where can I find an
English copy of this work. I intend to read it and see if Shahak is telling the
truth. So far everything by Shahak I've looked into has checked out. He is very
careful about his facts.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51757 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace (Ken Sperry)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:26:33 GMT
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Topics
-Jewish Verbal Violence and Personal Abuse

Notes
-The author, Ken Sperry, failed to produce a single rational or factual message
pertaining the topics at hand: Operation Grapes of Wrath, the Qana Massacre, and
the meaning of the terms "goy" and "goyim."
-The newsgroups talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel
have been inundated with this kind verbal violence and personal abuse for years.
Fortunately all of it has been archived.

---BEGIN---
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From: sperry@zot.io.org (ken)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: IGNORE WAYNE MCGUIRE (formerly MCGUIRE IS SCUM)
Date: 19 May 1996 02:07:19 -0400
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soc.culture.jewish:75926


Please ignore Wayne McGuire.  He is not interested in the Middle East, nor
in Israel.  He is an anti-Semite only interested in attacking Jews and
Judaism.   He is a fifth-rate gutter rat, well-known on other newsgroups for
his virulent anti-Semitism.  Do not be baited into arguing over books,
articles, opinions etc. with this jerk, as his only interest is to vent
his hate towards Jews.  As in all other newsgroups, he'll leave after a little
bit, only to resurface six to 12 months later.  Don't bother with him, and as
with  most childish fools, he'll be frustrated if no attention is
paid to him and he'll leave.


K. Sperry
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51830 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 15:05:52 GMT
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On Sun, 19 May 1996 10:38:25 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne, 
>
>You know I am Orthodox in leanings, and yet you have never heard hatred 
>from me of anyone for being what they are.

Roger,

Your posts for the last months have been among the most reasonable and least
hateful on the Usenet. Anyone who would accuse the Orthodox collectively of
trafficking in hate would be a liar and a smear artist. But some Orthodox Jews,
like some Christians and Muslims, obviously do hold bigoted and fanatical views,
and they are a force to contend with in Israeli and world politics.

The zealot who pulled the trigger on Israel's Prime Minister was not a Christian
or a Muslim or a Nazi, and there are many more like him out there.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51831 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Absurdity
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 15:07:40 GMT
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On Sun, 19 May 1996 10:43:35 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> As I recall, Schneerson didn't even have the decency to express his condolences
>> to the parents of the children which were run down by a car in his entourage.
>> How do you interpret that?
>
>No need to interpret.  Schneerson at the time was incapacitated ....

Did representatives of Schneerson have the decency to contact the parents and
offer them sympathy?

>> In any case, I just posted evidence from the New Republic proving that the
>> ideology of the Lubavitchers is drenched in hatred for non-Jews--that would
>> include the vast majority of African-Americans.
>
>That's absurd (and I'm not all that sympathetic to the Lubavitchers on 
>many issues). 

What facts are mistaken in Nadler's New Republic article about the Lubavitchers
and their attitudes towards non-Jews?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:29 PDT 1996
Article: 51832 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (The Lubavitchers)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 15:10:34 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> According to an article in The New Republic, the founder of Lubavitch Hasidism
>> taught that non-Jews "derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous
>> than the Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels. . . . All
>> Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil. Jews were
>> the pinnacle of creation and served the Creator, gentiles its
>> nadir... Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently
>> evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to
>> Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing."
>
>That's about as accurate as the "blood libel".   I'm fairly familiar 
>with Lubavitch literature, and have never seen such absurdities.   There 
>is also nothing in Jewish philosophy which would support such an 
>attitude.

Why would The New Republic, which is owned by Martin Peretz and which is
strongly pro-Jewish, publish an article by a reputable scholar which is full of
libelous lies? Perhaps you are in denial, Roger.

Please assemble full cites for the English language versions of the works that
have been mentioned by Shahak and Nadler, and we shall see who is speaking the
truth.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51853 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:10:55 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>What makes this entire discussion ludicrous is the fact that Peres made 
>his statement in _Hebrew_, a language in which "goyim" means, quite 
>simply, "Nations" or "Nations of the World".  I ask myself if the person 
>who translated Peres' speech but left the word "goyim" untranslated, 
>didn't have an agenda.

Avi,

What is the role and status of "the nations" within the ideological system of
Judaism?

Do they enjoy fully equal status with Israel in all respects?

What is the cultural and ideological background of the concept of "the nations"
within Judaism?

I seem to recall one famous prayer, which is a cornerstone of Judaism, in which
Israel is compared to light, "the nations" are compared to darkness, and Jews
thank God for separating them from "the nations." Do you know the prayer I mean,
and can anyone here quote it verbatim?

The point of view towards "the nations" in this doctrine doesn't seem entirely
neutral and value-free.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51854 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 14:58:32 GMT
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On Sun, 19 May 1996 10:28:04 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> That Peres meant the term in a derogatory fashion is evident from the semantic
>> context his remarks. 
>
>Though I am not accustomed to defending Shimon Peres,  I have to comment 
>that you totally misunderstood his remarks.

How did I misunderstand his remarks? He was angry at the U.N. for delving into
the circumstances of the Qana massacre.

As matters stand now, Israel has failed to answer any of the key points in the
U.N. report. It's explanations are full of inconsistencies and
self-contradictions. It keeps changing its story without answering legitimate
questions. It pressured the U.S. to attempt to censor the report instead of
answering it openly, fairly and factually. As the world media have observerd,
it's overall posture reeks of evasion of guilt.

And now Peres is railing against "the goyim," because Operation Grapes of Wrath
was a disaster, and because the world wants to know how and why more than 100
civilians were slaughtered at Qana (including 25 children under 12).

Sorry, Roger--I've defended Peres many times, but not in this instance.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 51874 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 03:49:27 GMT
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szs@ultranet.com (Stephen Z. Stein) wrote:

>In article <319cc20b.26145543@news.cybercom.net>, wmcguire@cybercom.net
>(Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>> szs@ultranet.com (Stephen Z. Stein) wrote:
>> 
>> >If you seek to defame "Hasidim and Martin Buber", please use their words,
>> >and not Shahak's.  I challenge you to come up with original citations.
>> 
>> I challenge you to rebut the information in the passage from Shahak. 
>> You made no effort whatsoever to do so.
>
>Sorry, Wayne.  That's not how the game is played.
>You made the claim.  Back up your sources!
>
>That's twice I've had to ask you.

I've produced around a dozen well-documented quotes on this general subject by
now. As soon as you've produced some documentation of your own, you'll have the
right to demand some more research from me.

The quote I found most compelling was that from Allan Nadler in The New
Republic. Martin Peretz is not in the habit of defaming the Jewish people or any
part of the Jewish tradition with false charges. No one here has rebutted
Nadler, whose accusations were even more damning than Shahak's.

As soon as someone here points me to English versions of the core documents of
the Lubavitchers and Hasidim in general, I will look at them. I suspect that
some people here would prefer that they remain out of sight and out of mind.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51971 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (The Lubavitchers)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 22:03:15 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:

>> Please assemble full cites for the English language versions of the works that
>> have been mentioned by Shahak and Nadler, and we shall see who is speaking the
>
>Frankly, Wayne, I don't care what Shahak or Nadler say....

So much for the rebuttal of Shahak and Nadler.

Apparently they were speaking the truth.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51983 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 22:59:58 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>THis is (another!) example of twisting what is said by combining a false
>and true statment in one sentence.  THere are different kinds of souls
>at the individual and national level; I did say that.

Different "souls" at the national level? What does that mean? This sounds like a
Nazilike doctrine to me. Explain to me why it isn't. According to Allan Nadler
in The New Republic article I quoted, what "different" means in Lubavitcher
doctrine is that Jewish souls collectively occupy the pinnacle of spirituality,
while the evil souls of the goyim occupy the nadir.

Ideologies and doctrines which assign rigid categories of the spirit to
collectivities--especially to nations, races and ethnic groups--invariably stir
up hatred and violence. I can't think of a single exception. The term to
describe this kind of mentality is "messianic tribalism." The Nazis are a
classic example.

>It is abundantly clear that it is your ideas that are intended on arousing
>hostility.  You are simply making a pun on the word discriminate.
>Discriminating the differences between "peoples" and "nations" does
>not mean that one is going to "discriminate" against someones legal
>civil rights, or human rights.

But that is in fact precisely what happens when various ethnic, racial and
national groups make mystical distinctions about their collective souls: they
discriminate against the legal and civil rights of tribal outsiders. Israel is
an excellent example.

>however your ethics
>are not "modern and enlightened" they are just "majoritarian and 
>globalist"  I too can play the inflammatory label game too.

I believe in judging people as individuals, not by their tribal affiliations.
That is a distinctly American viewpoint, and it is also a modern and enlightened
viewpoint, in my opinion.

All tribes contain good and bad people. Any other view invariably leads to
bigotry and racism, and quite often to genocide.

No tribe has a monopoly on virtue or a special pipeline to God.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:34 PDT 1996
Article: 52032 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:52:14 GMT
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Topics
-Jewish Verbal Violence and Personal Abuse

Notes
-As in Ken Sperry's similar hate message, Kaufman made no effort to address in a
rational and factual way the substantive issues in current discussions.
-Mark Ira Kaufman has been one of the most prolific contributors of Jewish hate
speech on the Usenet for quite a few years. His many hundreds of hate messages
practically define the genre.

---BEGIN---
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From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: IGNORE WAYNE MCGUIRE (formerly MCGUIRE IS SCUM)
Date: 20 May 1996 13:27:01 GMT
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sperry@zot.io.org (ken) writes...
 
 
> Please ignore Wayne McGuire.  
 
That's as easy to do as ignoring a stone in one's shoe (no insult to the
stone intended).
 
 
> He is not interested in the Middle East, nor in Israel.  
 
True.
 
 
> He is an anti-Semite only interested in attacking Jews and Judaism.   
 
True.
 
 
> He is a fifth-rate gutter rat, well-known on other newsgroups for his 
> virulent anti-Semitism.  
 
Aren't you being a bit hard on the other fifth-rate gutter rats of the 
world?
 
 
> Do not be baited into arguing over books, articles, opinions etc. with 
> this jerk, as his only interest is to vent his hate towards Jews.  As in 
> all other newsgroups, he'll leave after a little bit, only to resurface 
> six to 12 months later.  Don't bother with him, and as with  most childish 
> fools, he'll be frustrated if no attention is paid to him and he'll leave.
 
 
K. Sperry
 
While your assessment of Mr. McGuire is flattering, I can no more ignore him
than I could any other type of cancer.  For cancer is what he is.
 
The problem is that there are people in this world so uninformed that they
might regard the nonsense Mr. McGuire spews as the truth, if that is all
they are exposed to.  If his bigotry is left unanswered, how can those of 
us who care for truth complain when people exposed only to McGuire's hateful 
posts take them for the truth? 

  _________________________________________________________________________
 |                                                                         |
 |         /\                                                              |
 |    ____/_ \____      Mark Ira Kaufman  aa824@cleveland.freenet.edu      |
 |    \  ___\ \  /                                                         |
 |     \/ /  \/ /       "The difference between genius and stupidity       |
 |     / /\__/_/\        is that genius has its limits."                   | 
 |    /__\ \_____\                                                         |
 |        \  /                                  - Albert Einstein          |
 |         \/                                                              |
 |_________________________________________________________________________|
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:36 PDT 1996
Article: 52043 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Coming Wave of Jewish Libertarianism
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:40:33 GMT
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Amir Hermon  wrote:

>Keep your ideology experiments locked in your American universities, We'll stick
>to our more realistic view of life. 
>Astronauts...

"Realism" is not the word that comes to mind when describing a state (Israel)
which on a per capita basis has been more dependent on foreign aid than any
other nation in the history of the world. America has given Israel more than
$100 billion in aid since its founding, and continues to give it billions of
dollars a year, even while Americans are suffering major cutbacks in social
programs of all kinds.

Will you continue to expect American taxpayers to subsidize Israel's socialist
economy and help pay for its social services? On what grounds? How long do you
think that arrangement will go on, and with what consequences in American
attitudes towards Israel?

Further "realism": Israel is eager for the world to recognize Jerusalem as its
capital, a city which is increasingly dominated by the Ultra-Orthodox, a group
which recently spoiled the plans of Intel to build a plant in the vincinity.

I wonder if most Israelis really want Jerusalem to be the chief symbol of the
Jewish state, if they really stop to think about where Jerusalem is heading. In
terms of projecting an image of realism, Tel Aviv might be the better choice.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:36 PDT 1996
Article: 52064 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:23:08 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:
>: People who hate others tend to attract others who hate them.
>
>: --
>: Wayne McGuire
>: wmcguire@cybercom.net
>: http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
>
>I couldn't have put it better myself. Wayne, why do you continue to 
>sprout your hatred here?

It's interesting that you, Ken Sperry, Mark Ira Kaufman and Richard Schultz have
all thrown in the towel in attempting to discuss reasonably any of the current
controversies on the table--Operation Grapes of Wrath, the Qana Massacre, the
meaning of "goyim," etc.--and have instead been reduced to hurling the verbal
abuse which has almost become the trademark of so many militant Israelis and
Israeli supporters. What that tells any intelligent reader is that you can't
defend any of your positions on those issues by relying on facts, logic or
ethics. You are driven completely by angry emotion and tribal hormones.

Just out of curiosity: are all four of you coming from the fundamentalist end of
the Jewish spectrum? That would explain a lot.

What's fascinating is watching zealots who defend or rationalize the murder of
children lecturing the world about "hatred." By now "the nations" (and certainly
the world media) have entirely written you off. They understand quite well where
you're coming from and are not likely to cut you any slack in the future. You
are digging yourself into an ever deeper hole politically, and when you come
crying for help to dig yourself out, you'll probably discover that you've
irrevocably alienated everyone that could lend a hand. The self-destructiveness
of the behavior one sees on display here is simply astonishing.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:37 PDT 1996
Article: 52103 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:40:31 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>Yigal Arens wrote:
>
>[Bryan Cowan asserted that "goy" is not derogatory.]
>
>> This is pretty amusing.  If you want "proof" that 'goy' can be a
>> derogatory term 
>
>No, no one is trying to prove that "goy" _can_ be derogatory; the 
>question is whether Peres used it in a derogatory sense.  _Any_ term 
>denoting an ethnic group, even if inherently neutral and non-derogatory, 
>can be used in a derogatory sense...

Avi,

We've been told repeatedly here that "goyim" means simply "the nations"--an
innocuous phrase which carries no negative baggage.

I just did a quick search in the ARTFL Project: King James Bible database on the
Web at

     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html

and in just a few minutes was able to pull together and take a quick look at all
the references to "nations" in the Jewish Bible. I've assembled a few of them
below.

It does appear that most of the references to "the nations" in the Jewish Bible
are quite negative and pejorative--not so?

For instance, what is one to make of this passage:

Deuteronomy 15
6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

Or of this passage:

Psalms 47
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
triumph. 
2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
the earth. 
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

If we are going to take into account the overall cultural and ideological
context of the term "the nations," it seems to be a derogatory term. The
relationship between Israel and the nations as portrayed in the Bible appears to
be one of master and slave.

Furthermore, there can be no doubt from the context of his remarks that Peres
meant it in a derogatory way, when he made the United Nations synonymous with
"the nations":

---begin Reuter excerpt---
	 ``Operation Grapes of Wrath (Israel's codename for the  
Lebanon blitz) proves that the United Nations cannot be 
trusted,'' Peres was quoted by Israel's Itim news agency as 
telling a gathering of Defense Ministry workers. 
	 ``Ben-Gurion's saying: 'It is not important what the goyim  
(non-Jews) say, it's important what the Jews do' has proved 
itself here in all its sharpness,'' Peres said, referring to the 
first prime minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion. 
---end Reuter excerpt---

It's interesting that even though David Ben-Gurion and Shimon Peres are both
secularists (even atheists, according to some reports), they are immersed in and
use the myths and symbols of the Bible in ways that are sometimes not very
different from the Orthodox.

---BEGIN---
The Nations

Deuteronomy 14
2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD
hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the
nations that [are] upon the earth. 

Deuteronomy 15
6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

Deuteronomy 26
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,
as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his
commandments; 
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in
praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy
people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. 

Deuteronomy 28
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments
which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on
high above all nations of the earth...

Deuteronomy 28
12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give
the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of
thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not
borrow. 

Psalms 47
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
triumph. 
2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
the earth. 
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

Psalms 72
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
the ends of the earth. 
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his
enemies shall lick the dust. 
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the
kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve
him. 

Psalms 96
1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from
day to day. 
3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people. 
4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be
feared above all gods. 
5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the
heavens. 

Psalms 118
10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I
destroy them. 
11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the
name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of
thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 

Isaiah 2
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
people...

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the
earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that
come forth of it. 
2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his]
fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath
delivered them to the slaughter. 
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up
out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their
blood
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 52143 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:13:56 GMT
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>Defaming the Rebbe is truly pathetic.  

How can one possibly further defame a charlatan who encouraged his gullible
followers to believe he was the messiah? He's another Sabbatai Sevi, although
not nearly as influential, thank God. The embarrassment could have been worse
than it was.

>The Tanya explains the differences between Jew and Non-Jew rather well. 

Please give me a cite for an English version of the work. I will read it from
front to back carefully. If Shahak has misrepresented the work, I will take him
to task here and set the record straight. I can't imagine that Shahak would lie
about the content of the book, but you never know.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:39 PDT 1996
Article: 52154 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:07:51 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>THis is irrelevant to Shahak's contention that the Lubavitcher Rebbe
>had "anti-Black attitudes"  I believe, and cited some things that indicate
>this is a 100% false claim. 

What "some things" did you cite that prove definitively that Menachem
Schneerson, the supposed messiah, didn't hold anti-black attitudes? Apparently
the message didn't reach my ISP.

There has been widespread discussion about racism in the Orthodox community,
including the Lubavitchers, in The Village Voice and elsewhere. The behavior of
elements of the Lubavitchers in the present mess just reported on the newswires
indicates that there is a major problem in this regard in the Lubavitcher
community. Vigilantism of that intensity doesn't spring out of a vacuum.

One New Yorker cover, painted by Art Spiegel as I recall, played on and twitted
this well-known racism: it depicted a Hasid-type in the embrace of a black
woman.

When one observes the callousness and heartlessness with which so many Jews here
have dismissed the slaughter of children in Lebanon, you've got to wonder about
their foundational ideologies and attitudes towards non-Jews. Only Michael Stein
managed to make a credible moral statement on that subject. Richard Schultz
couldn't even make the connection between the lessons of the Holocaust and the
commission of mass terrorism against civilians in Lebanon.

Allan Nadler in The New Republic stated that the founder of Lubavitch believed
that the souls of goyim (of which African-Americans are members) are inferior to
the souls of Jews.

In any case, you selected only one sentence in the passage from Shahak, and
ignored all the rest of his assertions. Perhaps you would care to set the record
straight on those other matters, which include a few dozen factual statements.

.qml
.book excerpt

author=Israel Shahak
title=Jewish History, Jewish Religion
subtitle=The Weight of Three Thousand Years
city=London; Boulder, CO
publisher=Pluto Press
year=1994

excerpt=

(page=26)

     My final, more general example is, if possible, even more
     shocking than the others. It concerns the attitude of the
     Hassidic movement towards non-Jews. Hassidim--a continuation
     (and debasement!) of Jewish mysticism--is still a _living_
     movement, with hundreds of thousands of active adherents who
     are fanatically devoted to their `holy rabbis', some of whom
     have acquired a very considerable political influence in
     Israel, among the leaders of most parties and even more so
     in the higher echelons of the army.

     What, then, are the views of this movement concerning
     non-Jews? As an example, let us take the famous _Hatanya_,

(page=27)

     fundamental book of the Habbad movement, one of the most
     important branches of Hassidism. According to this book, all
     non-Jews are totally satanic creatures `in whom there is
     absolutely nothing good.' Even a non-Jewish embryo is
     qualitatively different from a Jewish one. The very
     existence of a non-Jew is `inessential', whereas all of
     creation was created solely for the sake of the Jews.

     This book is circulated in countless editions, and its ideas
     are further propagated in the numerous `discourses' of the
     present hereditary Fuehrer of Habbad, the so-called
     Lubavitcher rabbi, M.M. Schneurssohn, who leads this
     powerful world-wide organisation from his New York
     headquarters. In Israel these ideas are widely disseminated
     among the public at large, in the schools and in the army.
     (According to the testimony of Shulamit Aloni, Member of the
     Knesset, this Habbad propaganda was particularly stepped up
     before Israel's invasion of Lebanon in March 1978, in order
     to induce military doctors and nurses to withhold medical
     help from `Gentile wounded'. This Nazi-like advice did not
     refer specifically to Arabs or Palestinians, but simply to
     `Gentiles', _goyim_.) A former Israeli President, Shazar,
     was an ardent adherent of Habbad, and many top Israeli and
     American politicians--headed by Prime Minister
     Begin--publicly courted and supported it. This, in spite of
     the considerable unpopularity of the Lubavitcher rabbi--in
     Israel he is widely criticised because he refuses to come to
     the Holy Land even for a visit and keeps himself in New York
     for obscure messianic reasons, while in New York his
     anti-Black attitude is notorious.

     The fact that, _despite_ these pragmatic difficulties,
     Habbad can be publicly supported by so many top political
     figures owes much to the thoroughly disingenuous and
     misleading treatment by almost all scholars who have written
     about the Hassidic movement and its Habbad branch. This
     applies particularly to all who have written or are writing
     about it in English. They suppress the glaring evidence of
     the old Hasidic texts as well as the latter-day political
     implications that follow from them, which stare in the face
     of even a casual reader of the Israeli Hebrew press, in
     whose pages the Lubavitcher rabbi and other Hassidic leaders
     constantly publish the most rabid bloodthirsty statements
     and exhortations against all Arabs.

     A chief deceiver in this case, and a good example of the
     power of the deception, was Martin Buber. His numerous works
     eulogising the whole Hassidic movement (including Habbad)
     never so much as hint at the real doctrines of Hassidism
     concerning non-Jews. The crime of deception is all the
     greater in view of the fact that Buber's eulogies of

(page=28)

     Hassidism were first published in German during the period
     of the rise of German nationalism and the accession of
     Nazism to power. But while ostensibly opposing Nazism, Buber
     glorified a movement holding and actually teaching doctrines
     about non-Jews not unlike the Nazi doctrines about Jews. One
     could of course argue that the Hassidic Jews of seventy or
     fifty years ago were the victims, and a `white lie'
     favouring a victim is usually excusable. But the
     consequences of deception are incalculable. Buber's works
     were translated into Hebrew, were made a powerful element of
     the Hebrew education in Israel, have greatly increased the
     power of the bloodthirsty Hassidic leaders, and have thus
     been an important factor in the rise of Israeli chauvinism
     and hate of all non-Jews. If we think about the many human
     beings who died of their wounds because Israeli army nurses,
     incited by Hassidic propaganda, refused to tend them, then a
     heavy onus for their blood lies on the head of Martin Buber.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:40 PDT 1996
Article: 52175 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:52:46 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>
>>We've been told repeatedly here that "goyim" means
> simply "the nations"--an
>>innocuous phrase which carries no negative baggage.
>
>>I just did a quick search in the ARTFL Project:
> King James Bible database on the
>>Web at
>>     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html
>>and in just a few minutes was able to pull
> together and take a quick look at all
>>the references to "nations" in the Jewish Bible.
> I've assembled a few of them
>>below.
>
>Wayne is trying to argue that the world goyim is (always)
>a derogatory term.  A proper counterargument only has to prove on
>example to the contrary.

The discussion is over whether "the nations" is a predominantly negative concept
in the ideology of Judaism. Finding a single example to the contrary is not
relevant. What counts is the preponderance of evidence.

The preponderance of evidence clearly is that "the nations" is a negative
concept. I couldn't turn up a single reference in the Jewish Bible depicting a
vision of equality and mutual respect between Israel and "the nations." But one
can find dozens of references in which "the nations" are depicted as subordinate
or submissive to Israel.

Please explain this passage:

Deuteronomy 15
6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

It seems to be stating clearly that God has promised Israel economic and
political domination over all the other nations in the world. (A sidenote: in
relations with the U.S., America seems to be doing most of the lending and
giving, and Israel most of the borrowing and taking. Apparently that prophecy
hasn't panned out yet.)

Please explain this passage:

Psalms 47
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
triumph. 
2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
the earth. 
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

Same message, cruder style.

"He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Our" in the passage above apparently refers to Israel and the Jewish people.

The tone can righly be characterized as one of contempt and hostility towards
non-Jewish peoples and nations.

ANY word which represented this concept would be derogatory. It's no wonder
"goyim" usually has such an ugly ring, when you consider its ideological base.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 52279 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>Yes, the legitimate word "polak" can be used derogatorily.  So can "yid", 
>and so, of course, can "goy".  But Peres' speech was in Hebrew, before a 
>Hebrew-speaking audience.  Thus, the insinuation of racism in (I think it 
>was; I apologize if it wasn't) Wayne's original subject line is as 
>ridiculous as posting a subject line like "Walensa on the Polaks", or 
>"Bashevis-Zinger on the Yids", or "Boris Yeltsin on the Russkies".

Avi,

I was trying to get at something more subtle than accusing Peres of being a
racist, something I would never do, since Peres taken as whole strikes me as
being one of the least racist human beings on the planet. I probably didn't
express my ideas clearly enough.

Both Peres and Rabin (before his death), in a number of their thoughtful public
remarks, expressed concern about Israel falling into a state of unsplendid
isolation and apocalyptic confrontation with the entire non-Jewish world, under
the pressure of militant religious Zionism. I suspect Rabin may have read or
talked to Moshe Leshem, who has been eloquent on this subject in the book
"Israel Alone" and elsewhere.

When I heard Peres describe the U.N. as "the goyim," in response to what appears
to me to be a perfectly fair report on the Qana Massacre, I thought, Oh no,
Peres is starting to lose it under the pressure of his failed policy in Lebanon.
He's beginning to slide into that very xenophobia and paranoia that both he and
Rabin had warned about.

I've read rumors that Peres has harbored hopes to serve as Secretary General of
the U.N. After that remark, perhaps he should reconsider.

But I have little doubt that Peres will quickly find his balance again.

With regard to the term "goyim": after perusing all the occurrences of the term
"nations" and "the nations" on the University of Chicago's Bible Web site, I am
led to the conclusion that the CONCEPT of "the nations" is an intrinsically
derogatory and insulting term in the ideological system of the Jewish Bible. I
posted some of the passages which led me to this conclusion. I couldn't find a
single passage in the Jewish Bible which presented a vision of the world with
Israel and "the nations" living in mutual equality and respect. The relationship
depicted repeatedly is more like that between master and slave--it is an
imperialist (and sometimes even a genocidal) model.

Therefore I conclude that since the concept of "the nations" is tainted, any
term that expresses the concept is also tainted. Feel free to try to argue me
out of this conviction. It's not cast in stone.

I am certainly not trying to suggest that the Jewish Bible is any more offensive
than the Christian Bible, the Koran or any number of other religious texts. But
we are all going to have to deal honestly and forthrightly with the negative
elements in all our religious traditions if we going to manage to live together
in a friendly and peaceful way.

I think Roger Froikin and others here have made a mistake in trying to conceal
and hide these negative elements in Judaism. The better method is to acknowledge
the negative elements, convince others that you reject them, and just get on
with life. After that point, they become a non-issue.

Most major Christian denominations have been open about confronting the
anti-Semitic elements in the New Testament and other major Christian writings.
Dealing with these matters truthfully makes more sense than artfully lying about
them.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 52333 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (The Lubavitchers)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 09:05:07 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:
>
>: So much for the rebuttal of Shahak and Nadler.
>: Apparently they were speaking the truth.
>
>I have published on Usenet several examples of Shahak's shoddy research
>and outright lies.

Richard,

Over the years I've observed that you have little ability to debate reasonably
or deal in facts of any kind. Whenever you are confronted with a current issue,
you dredge up some old debate, and give a dishonest and confused account about
issues that you failed to understand when they were being discussed. Your
"arguments" consist of equal parts of personal abuse and sophistic evasions--an
endless Ponzi scheme of evasions, pointing to ancient debates in which you have
declared yourself the winner by fiat.

Feel free to try to rebut the U.N. report on the Qana Massacre, Shahak's
comments about the Hasidim, Nadler's remarks about the Lubavitchers, or MY
remarks about the semantics of "the nations" in the Jewish Bible. Those are the
current issues on the table. It is unlikely that you will be able to acquit
yourself more credibly now than you have in the past.

I think I may have finally found a English translation of "Hatanya." I should be
able to discover in a week or so what are the views towards non-Jews in that
work. I'll be sure to post whatever I discover. I'll wager that Shahak has
nailed that book cold. I've seen enough of the fruits of this branch of Judaism
in the weekly Kahanist Jewish Press to know that it is saturated with crude
bigotry and racism.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 52343 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (The Lubavitchers)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:22:32 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> Roger Froikin  wrote:
>> 
>> >Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> >> Please assemble full cites for the English language versions of the works that
>> >> have been mentioned by Shahak and Nadler, and we shall see who is speaking the
>> >
>> >Frankly, Wayne, I don't care what Shahak or Nadler say....
>> 
>> So much for the rebuttal of Shahak and Nadler.
>> 
>> Apparently they were speaking the truth.
>
>That's rubbish.
>
>I don't waste my time rebutting the "blood libel" either.  That does not 
>make it true.
>
>I trust my experience and studies far more than the comments of Nadler 
>or Shahak.

Roger,

This is not a convincing response to Shahak and Nadler.

You have a few credibility problems when using your personal experience and
impressions to rebut facts and texts.

For instance, a month or two before the Rabin Assassination, I reported here
(using Robert Friedman as my source) that a prominent Orthodox rabbi in New York
City, using Maimonides as his authority, had issued a statement encouraging the
assassination of Rabin. At the time, you angrily attacked me and Friedman as
liars, and claimed that you had inside personal knowledge proving that the
charge was false.

Later all the major media (including the Jewish media) acknowledged the truth of
Friedman's charge, and the rabbi was forced to issue an apology.

Sometimes you say things that you wish were true, but aren't. You've allowed
yourself to become trapped in defending the honor and purity of Judaism and
Israel in its entirety. You should reconsider your approach. If I attempted to
defend every doctrine and action of America or Christianity, I would be quickly
ripped to shreds.

You should better calibrate what positions are worth defending and what
positions are better conceding. Try letting reality, rather than your
ideological agenda, be your guide.

Just some friendly advice....

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 52395 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:52:54 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>
>>The discussion is over whether "the nations" is
>>a predominantly negative concept
>>in the ideology of Judaism. Finding a single example to the contrary is not
>>relevant. What counts is the preponderance of evidence.
>
>I will only spend time on a single counter example because it is
>sufficient to show that the word "nations" (Goyim, singular Goy)
>is negative or positive solely by the context and the content of
>the sentence.

You are evading the main point: the vast majority of references to "the nations"
in the Jewish Bible are negative and insulting. The entire ideological system of
the Jewish Bible is as insulting to "the nations" as the Christian Bible is to
Jews.

You failed to respond to a single quote in this regard.

You also failed to respond to a single quote from the numerous passages I posted
in which the contemporary usage of "goy" and "goyim" was clearly bigoted and
racist.

More on contemporary usage: I've heard Howard Stern refer a number of times to
"goyim" as stupid, drunken, bestial and criminal. From where do you think he
imbibed this wisdom?

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 52407 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:27:09 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>During the Shabbat Minchah Amidah, see pag 206 of the *Lubavitch*
>siddur if need be...but all siddurim are probably the same in the
>Nusach on this point:
>
>You are One and Your Name is One, and who is like Your people,
>like Israel, the one nation (Goy!) on earth.

What does the phrase "the one nation on earth" mean? The only nation?

Also, could you please quote verbatim the prayer from the Jewish liturgy in
which Jews (in the realm of light) thank God for not being numbered among the
nations (in the realm of darkness)? It is brief and well-known, and should only
take you a few minutes to type in.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 52441 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:38:46 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>During the Shabbat Minchah Amidah, see pag 206 of the *Lubavitch*
>siddur if need be...but all siddurim are probably the same in the
>Nusach on this point:
>
>You are One and Your Name is One, and who is like Your people,
>like Israel, the one nation (Goy!) on earth.
>
>THis is simply a quote from II Samuel 7:23 .... (from "and who is like"
>onward is the quote that is) 

Here's the full quote from II Samuel:

23 And what one nation in the earth [is] like thy people, [even] like Israel,
whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to
do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which
thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, [from] the nations and their gods? 

How does your version refer to "the nations" at the end of the sentence?

Notice the ideological system:

1. Israel is superior to all the other nations ("the nations," the goyim).

2. The gods of the goyim are false gods.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 52548 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:18:58 GMT
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bdissen@netvision.net.il (Binyamin Dissen) wrote:

>:>But that is in fact precisely what happens when various ethnic, racial and
>:>national groups make mystical distinctions about their collective souls: they
>:>discriminate against the legal and civil rights of tribal outsiders. Israel is
>:>an excellent example.
>
>How?? Please elaborate?

Perhaps you could explain why the house of Yigal Amir's parents is still
standing.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 52549 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:21:25 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> No tribe has a monopoly on virtue or a special pipeline to God.
>
>Then you seem to agree with Jewish philosophy, Wayne.
>
>It's Christianity, not Judaism, that claims to own the only pipeline.

Please quote the passages from me in the Jewish Bible in which Israel and "the
nations" enjoy mutual equality and respect. I searched in vain to find such a
passage, but I discovered many passages which describe a master-slave
relationship between Israel and the nations.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 52550 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:23:19 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>> The quote I found most compelling was that from Allan Nadler in The New
>> Republic. Martin Peretz is not in the habit of defaming the Jewish people or any
>> part of the Jewish tradition with false charges. No one here has rebutted
>> Nadler, whose accusations were even more damning than Shahak's.
>
>I have rebutted Nadler's opinion with my opinion, which I suggest is at 
>least of equal value if not better academically and religiously and in 
>terms of familiarity with the original source documents.
>
>> As soon as someone here points me to English versions of the core documents of
>> the Lubavitchers and Hasidim in general, I will look at them. I suspect that
>> some people here would prefer that they remain out of sight and out of mind.
>
>I would not know where to refer you Wayne.

In other words, you are attempting to rebut Nadler without having read the texts
to which he is referring. Nadler formed his opinions on the basis of actually
having the read the texts under discussion.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 52551 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:31:18 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:

>> What is the cultural and ideological background of the concept of "the nations"
>> within Judaism?
>> 
>> I seem to recall one famous prayer, which is a cornerstone of Judaism, in which
>> Israel is compared to light, "the nations" are compared to darkness, and Jews
>> thank God for separating them from "the nations." Do you know the prayer I mean,
>> and can anyone here quote it verbatim?
>
>Well, there is "shelo asani goy" ("Blessed art Thou O Lord our God King 
>of the Universe, that Thou didst not make me a gentile"), but before you 
>have a field day with that one, think about "Thank God I'm an American". 
> Is there a difference?

Avi,

Could you please quote the entire prayer verbatim? I can't locate it. I vaguely
remember that it used the imagery of light and darkness to describe the
relationship between Israel and "the nations."

Regarding, "Is there a difference?" There is an immense difference. America is
not an ethnic group, but a collection of the world's ethnic groups. Americas do
not have a word to describe "non-Americans," and they almost never refer to all
non-Americans in a derogatory fashion as an indiscriminate mass. Nor have
Americans constructed a detailed messianic religion based on discriminating
between "America" and "the non-Americans."

>Think about what that means.  Think about all of the songs that say 
>"ueber alles", or merely quote the notion of "victory" (which means 
>coming out on top of everyone else).  Thing about all of the Dan Quayle 
>speeches in which America is "the finest planet on earth".  This is not 
>something inherent to Judaism, or to the word "goy", or to the word 
>"nation"; it is the tendency of every nation to see itself as better than 
>the others in some way.

It is one thing to think one is a citizen of a wonderful nation. It is another
thing to berate everyone who is not a member of one's ethnic group. The
difference is immense. Berating everyone who is not a member of one's ethnic
group is crude racism, pure and simple.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 52565 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Good guy, bad guy
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:44:43 GMT
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Allen Elias  <100274.346@CompuServe.COM> wrote:

(quoting Charles Krauthammer)

>     Nor is it just the US government. The full weight of American  elite
>opinion  has  been  deployed  in   media coverage  and  editorial commentary
>favoring  Peres  and denigrating  his opponent Binyamin Netanyahu.  The  theme
>endlessly  repeated in the echo chamber of  the  American press  and encouraged
>by a highly partisan administration is that Peres wants peace and Netanyahu
>doesn't.

I stated repeatedly in some of these newsgroups YEARS ago that American and
Western elite opinion was polarizing against the expansionist policies of Likud.
Many Israeli supporters scoffed at my analysis, but I was right.

The realpolitik angle is easy to comprehend for anyone who isn't a messianic
ideologue:

1. Israel is totally dependent on American aid.

2. Israel has forced America to become deeply involved in Israel's conflicts.

3. Many of Israel's actions can severely damage American interests because of
this unhealthy arrangement.

4. America is profoundly concerned to prevent Israel from damaging American
interests.

5. Likud's expansionist policies in the pursuit of Biblical Greater Israel would
damage American interests.

6. Consequence: Netanyahu is not a popular person among policy elites in America
and the West.

Most policy-makers and opinion elites in the West are turned off these days by
any sign or indication of messianism in Israel or Israeli supporters. Messianism
= big trouble.

Those Israelis and Israeli supporters who dislike this state of affairs should
stop depending on America for Israel's existence. It's really as simple as that.
The problem is, it's difficult to see how Israel could ever become the truly
independent nation that the dreamer Herzl envisioned. Israel is arguably the
least independent state in the history of the world, which helps explain in part
why so many Zionists are in a perpetual state of rage and hysteria.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:50 PDT 1996
Article: 52600 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
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Martin Fox  wrote:

>We are called upon to be a light to the goyim (nations) so that by our 
>example tikun olam (healing of the world) can take place.

As stated, this is a beautiful concept, but I suspect it has become corrupted in
some circles. Many of the worst crimes in world history have been committed with
the very best and most idealistic of motives, particularly ideological and
religious motives.

But I very much like the idea of a community improving the world by setting high
standards for itself and living by them. Leadership by example is more effective
than leadership by lecturing or hectoring. Jewish civilization is on its
strongest ground when it emphasizes its commitment to excellence in every realm.

Keep in mind that some of those "goyim" (nations, groups) may feel that they
possess innate revelations that are equal or superior to those of the Jews. And
there can be pitfalls in associating a revelation or religion with a particular
earthly government--for instance, Israel. Earthly governments are all notorious
for making mistakes. If you put all your eggs in one basket--one
government--they will all be broken if that government severely screws up.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 52633 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:17:40 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>
>>Just out of curiosity: are all four of you coming
> from the fundamentalist end of
>>the Jewish spectrum? That would explain a lot.
>
>Looking for some more data points to corroborate your prejudice?
>I suspect you are using "fundamentalist" to mean "those sorts
>of jews who are religious and have politics i don't like".

Fundamentalist = Orthodox or Ultra-Orthodox, or religious Zionist. Someone who
believes the Torah provides a blueprint for contemporary political activity. One
runs into very few Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or secular Jews who
read the Torah in a strictly literal way.

So, are you Orthodox?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 52636 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:49:13 GMT
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bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan McKay) wrote:

>In article <319da1b5.43425369@news.cybercom.net> wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>>bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan McKay) wrote:
>>
>>>>How many ethnic groups starkly divide the world into two groups: us and all the
>>>>other ethnic groups in one indiscriminate mass? 
>>>
>>>Most of them do, whether or not they have a specific word for it.
>>>America is one of the worst countries in this regard.
>>
>>America is not an ethnic group. America is the ultimate collection of ethnic
>>groups. Because of this Americans are especially open to and tolerant of peoples
>>from all around the world, at least in my experience.
>>
>>Regarding other particular ethnic groups: I have never in my life heard American
>>Anglos, American Italians, American Irish, American Swedes or any other ethnic
>>group refer pejoratively to the entirety of the human race which was not a part
>>of the ethnic group. I don't think these ethnic groups have words that are
>>analogous to the insulting and racist "goyim," and I don't think they view the
>>world in these primitive and hateful terms. If you have had other experiences,
>>please share them with us.
>
>You are right that America is not an ethnic group, but that gets
>it off on a legal technicality only.  There is an attitude of 
>national superiority in America that exceeds that of any other
>country I know of.

I think many Americans are proud overall of America's political system and
cultural and technological achievements. I've never in my life heard an American
refer to all non-Americans with a nasty term that is apparently a major
component of a religious myth. Americans don't divide the world metaphysically
into Americans and non-Americans and make a religion of the division.

>Anyway, Israel is more ethnically diverse than America by a long shot.  

Really? Why do you think this? In my neighborhood I know Welsh, Anglos,
Brazilians, Indians, Swedes, Scots, Jews, Arabs, Italians, Germans, Irish,
African-Americans, Haitians, French, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. The ethnic
mix is extremely rich. And no one very much gives a damn about the ethnic
differences. The ethnic stuff is fun and colorful; the real action and focus is
getting on with creative and productive work that has absolutely nothing to do
with ethnic or religious agendas or conflicts. None of these people speak
pejoratively about the rest of the world. Most of them have close ties to the
nations of their heritage and speak fondly of them. Overall the atmosphere is
quite relaxed and tolerant.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:52 PDT 1996
Article: 52643 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:25:49 GMT
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I just received Avi Jacobson's long tirade in email, and will respond before
waiting for it to appear on the Usenet.

The post, which is jumbled and confused, demonstrates just how deep are Israel's
difficulties with America and the world. If someone as bright and decent as Avi
can be so easily pushed into the same xenophobic camp with right-wing
extremists, this bodes ill for the future of Israel in general.

Let's recap how this discussion about the goyim began: Israel launched Operation
Grapes of Wrath, which terrorized hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians
and murdered dozens of Lebanese children. This action provoked deep disgust in
the world media, and has been widely seen as a failure for Israel in every
regard, even in the Israeli media. The apologetics of Israel and Israeli
supporters in justifying Israeli state terrorism even further alienated the
world.

The United Nations investigated the slaughter at Qana, and came to the
conclusion that Israel's actions there were probably deliberate. Israel and its
friends in the U.S. attempted to bury the report, while failing miserably to
answer any of its key points.

Enter Shimon Peres complaining about the "goyim" (according to the newswires),
and sounding very much like Menachem Begin at his most xenophobic.

During the discussion of the "goyim" I took the trouble to look up the term "the
nations" in the Jewish Bible, and discovered that the CONCEPT of the "the
nations" there--not any word used to describe it--is inherently derogatory and
insulting. It is not a neutral and value-free term. No one in these newsgroups
has yet answered this central point.

And so now Avi is quite upset over all this, and finds himself in the
sympathetic company even of self-declared Kahanists.

What is he upset about? That the world objects to Israeli state terrorism and
the slaugher of children? That it finds laughable the attempt by Peres to blame
the entire non-Jewish world for his failed policy in Lebanon?

The sad thing about all this anger emanating from Israel towards the entire
world is that Israel is so dependent on others for its survival. And yet it
continues to alienate more and more people with its violent actions and abusive
words. I suspect America will take its last best shot at trying to help Israel
extricate itself from the deep mess it is in, and then move on to other more
rewarding matters, such as trying to build a livable society within its own
borders. Trying to save the Mideast from its self-destructive inclinations could
be a lost cause.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:53 PDT 1996
Article: 52660 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:27:35 GMT
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On Wed, 22 May 1996 14:22:32 -0700, Avi Jacobson 
wrote:

>>Regarding, "Is there a difference?" There is an immense difference. America is
>>not an ethnic group, but a collection of the world's ethnic groups. 
>
>Yes, you keep saying that.  But you know as well as I do that Americans 
>consider themselves to be a nation ("one nation, under God, 
>indivisible..."), with its own nationality (look at any piece of 
>citizenship law or NIS regulationif you don't believe this), language 
>(cf. "Dictionary of the American Language"), and culture.

Yes, America is a nation, but it is a nation which seeks to favor no ethnic
group or religion on earth. And that makes it a radically different kind of
nation from any nation which attempts to make a supremacist religion of its
ethnicity.

Nations based on messianic and religious tribalism in the ethnic sense have a
strong susceptibility to xenophobia and bigotry, and that is why they easily
come up with loaded and derogatory terms to describe the entire outside world.

It was remarkable to see Shimon Peres fall prey to this petty provincialism
because Operation Grapes of Wrath turned into Operation Big Mess, and because he
couldn't find any way to answer effectively the damning U.N. report about
Israel's massacre of civilians at Qana.

As for the rest of your diatribe, apparently now you are trying to characterize
my Web site as anti-Semitic. You've seriously lost control of yourself and have
lost most of your credibility in my eyes. Perhaps, like Peres, you will regain
your balance eventually, but it is a real eye-opener to see how unstable and
confused are so many Israelis. The instability and confusion do not bode well
for the future of Israel. Americans are getting tired of dealing with it.

Anyone can consult my current collection of hot Web sites and pointers at

     http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/bookmark.htm

I confess that I have pointers to anti-Semitic publications like The Jerusalem
Post and The Jewish Bulletin, but the Jewish stuff overall is a tiny portion of
the stuff that I find interesting. There's a big wide beautiful world out there
beyond Israel's never-ending battles with the Arabs, the Muslims--and the goyim.
What a nightmare it must be to get trapped in that suffocating box.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 52692 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (The Lubavitchers)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:10:18 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>Wayne M.  perhaps you can research this article to see if it is
>accurate.  In any event, perhaps the goyim being talked about are
>the ones such as yourself who like to make collective indictments
>on religious jews.

I have made no collective indictments on religious Jews. The problem is that you
are suffering from delusions of grandeur: you do not speak for all Reform Jews,
Reconstructionist Jews, Conservative Jews or even Orthodox Jews. There are many
aspects of Judaism I find attractive (mainly the elements that promote
excellence, justice and peace).

In the wake of the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a religious Jew of a
particular type, many people and publications have been delving into the beliefs
and ideology of the particular branch of Judaism which formed Yigal Amir and
others who think like him.

"The Jewish Press" of Brooklyn, which has close ties with both Kahanists and the
Lubavitchers, has often been singled out for an analysis of this hate culture.

Shahak, Friedman, Sprinzak, Nadler and many other prominent Jewish writers were
on to this problem long before it became fashionable in the world media.

Messianists always think that they speak for their whole tribe (or what they
think is their whole tribe). Megalomania and messianism are almost synonymous.
Any disagreement with the messianist or with any aspect whatever of the
messianist's tribe is construed as a demonic attack on the entire tribe.

Raw messianism untempered by skepticism, rationality, common sense and simple
decency is without a doubt a major mental illness, one of the most dangerous in
the human race.

Btw, why is it that so many Kahanists also seem to have ties to the
Lubavitchers? There really is some kind of significant correlation going on
there, one which points to racist attitudes in Lubavitcher culture.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 52693 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:17:07 GMT
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orie0064@sable.ox.ac.uk wrote:

>Nigger, Gook, Wop and Spic are all american terms, may I remind you.
>Israel might have it's problems as far as discrimination is concerned, 
>but to fight against intolerance you don't need to look outside your 
>border.

The terms you just mentioned do not apply to the entire world outside the
boundaries of a single ethnic group.

Every nation has derogatory terms to describe particular ethnic groups. What's
interesting is the phenomenon of frequently using a derogatory term to describe
ALL other ethnic groups--in one faceless lump.

I vaguely recall that the Japanese have a term to describe all ethnic outsiders
that might be closely equivalent to "goyim." Does anyone remember what it is?
The Japanese also seem to be above average in their susceptibility to the siren
call of tribal messianism.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 52733 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:28:26 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>As for you *new* contention that when talking about nations the
>vast majority of times it is negative, I haven't done a survey;
>but it does seem to be often negative; that's because the bible
>is discussing nations populated with people such as yourself.  It
>is no surprise you would find this insulting.

Ah--now we get down to the essence of the issue. And thanks for the revealing
insult that came out of your own mouth, while you are absurdly trying to argue
that there is no bigotry associated with the concept of "the nations."

If the concept of "the nations" is intrinsically negative and insulting within
the ideological system of Judaism, then any word used to express that
concept--whether it be "goyim" or not--is also going to be negative and
insulting.

Perhaps this is why so many of us here have often heard the word "goyim" used in
an unequivocally negative and insulting way: Howard Stern comes immediately to
mind as an example of a prominent personality who uses the word in that way.
Menachem Begin, the former Prime Minister of Israel, is another. Menachem Begin
once referred contemptuously to the President of the United States as "that Big
Goy in Washington." The fact that Begin was totally dependent on the U.S. didn't
prevent him from insulting Americans with the "goy" word.

You say that the concept of "the nations" is often negative. That is rather an
understatement. Perhaps you could produce an equal number of positive
counter-examples for the negative statements below.

I'd be especially interested in your analysis of Deuteronomy 15:6 and Psalms
47:3.

Lest we lose sight of the context of this whole controversy, it began when
Shimon Peres expressed anger at the United Nations and "the nations" (apparently
the same thing in his mind) for having the audacity to look into the
circumstances of Israel's massacre of civilians at Qana. That is what this whole
controversy is about. From what cultural system and ideological framework did
Peres's remark emerge?

In the even larger scheme of things, why is it that Israel seems to be in such
relentless and ugly conflict with "the nations" (including the United Nations)?
What in the world is going on?

My guess is that more negative votes have been cast against Israel by "the
nations" (i.e., the United Nations) than against any other nation in the world.

Do you have any theories about this situation has developed?

---BEGIN---

The Nations

Deuteronomy 14
2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD
hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the
nations that [are] upon the earth. 

Deuteronomy 15
6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

Deuteronomy 26
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,
as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his
commandments; 
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in
praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy
people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. 

Deuteronomy 28
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments
which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on
high above all nations of the earth...

Deuteronomy 28
12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give
the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of
thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not
borrow. 

Psalms 47
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
triumph. 
2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
the earth. 
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

Psalms 72
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
the ends of the earth. 
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his
enemies shall lick the dust. 
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the
kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve
him. 

Psalms 96
1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from
day to day. 
3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people. 
4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be
feared above all gods. 
5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the
heavens. 

Psalms 118
10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I
destroy them. 
11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the
name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of
thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 

Isaiah 2
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
people...

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the
earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that
come forth of it. 
2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his]
fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath
delivered them to the slaughter. 
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up
out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their
blood

---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 52809 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:48:53 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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On Wed, 22 May 1996 20:48:36 -0700, Avi Jacobson 
wrote:

>In article <31a3113a.25035280@news.cybercom.net> ("Re: Peres on the 
>Goyim", Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:

>> Yes, America is a nation, but it is a nation which seeks to favor no ethnic
>> group or religion on earth. 
>
>As I mentioned to you in the article to which you respond (and which you 
>now so carefully abridge), America invented the terms "un-American" and 
>"the American way"....

Avi,

Unless you can get control of yourself--I'm not sure what precisely put you over
the edge--this will be my last reply to you for the time being.

I think what's really bugging you is that I posted five or six high quality
posts from writers like Robert Friedman and Abraham Brumberg which demonstrated
beyond the shadow of a doubt that the term "goyim" is often used in the most
derogatory sense imaginable, and that it is indeed often a racist term. You have
been unable to reply intelligently to any of those posts, and thus began your
downward spiral into ranting.

How I found those passages, btw, is interesting: I just plugged the word "goy"
into a full text search engine, and that's what popped up.

Students of rhetoric will notice a fascinating phenomenon that has long been
evident in these newsgroups: emotional supporters of Israel are quick to resort
to putting the surnames of people they disagree with in subject headings. At
least five or six users have demonstrated this behavior in the last week or two.
Jacobson himself has now fallen into the childish and provocative pattern which
invariably promotes an escalation of mutual verbal abuse. I am going to work
hard not to take the bait and sink to your level.

Now, with regard to the above statement: you still do not comprehend the
difference between a nation built on ethnic mysticism, messianism or chauvinism,
and a nation built on a political philosophy which unites peoples from all
ethnic and religious groups. It is a radical difference.

The term "un-American" generally refers to anything which is opposed to American
democratic principles and political philosophy--the Declaration of Independence,
the U.S. Constitution, The Federalist Papers, and the like. The Soviet Union,
for instance, was un-American and anti-American.

The term "goyim" refers to everyone who is not a member of a particular ethnic
group, to wit, Jews. And I emphasize ethnic group, and not religion, because
many of the people who use this term, and who use it with the nastiest
inflection, are secularists or atheists. For them it is clearly an ethnic term,
and quite often a term of ethnic abuse.

Derogatory terms concerning ethnic groups are far more primitive and
inflammatory than purely descriptive terms describing broad philosophical
differences.

The fact that Israel so often defines its enemies in these crude ethnic terms is
one reason that it is having much more trouble getting along in the world than a
nation like the U.S., which defines its differences in terms that are
philosophical, trans-tribal, and trans-religious. Americans don't want to
exclude or discriminate against anyone on an ethnic basis.

You failed to respond to my point that "the nations" as a CONCEPT is a highly
negative and derogatory term in the Jewish Bible. I provided a number of
passages making my point. Since the concept is derogatory and insulting, any
term which expresses the concept is also derogatory and insulting--including
"goyim." The ideological framework for "goyim" is the problem, not the word in
itself.

If anyone has any doubts that this ideology has had a baleful influence, just
analyze talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.israel and soc.culture.jewish for the
last few years, and notice the thousands of vicious attacks on one ethnic group,
religion and nation after another. The enemies list is endless: Arabs, Muslims,
Americans, Germans, Poles, Christians, Syrians, Russians,
African-Americans--blah, blah, blah, blah. The rant against nearly the entire
human race is simply appalling.

I think you will be hard-pressed to find any other newsgroups on the Usenet in
which so many different ethnic groups, religions and nations are attacked with
so much venom.

Am I accusing "the Jews" collectively of this problem? Absolutely not. But there
is definitely a problem here, and many intelligent Jews are quite aware of it.
Some of them were the writers which you failed to respond to.

Until you respond to this issue in a reasonable, non-abusive way, this
particular conversation is over on this end. I feel confident I've made my point
to anyone that matters.

You should be much more worried about how elite opinion around the world has
absorbed the Qana Massacre and its aftermath (including Peres's dismissal of the
goyim) than this linguistic dispute, but I imagine arguing about words and
attacking "anti-Semites" is a useful distraction from much more serious problems
facing Israel.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52946 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israel Shahak, Religious Zionism and Jewish Fundamentalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:41:45 GMT
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This is for Richard Schultz:

Richard,

I read your three posts on Shahak carefully, and congratulate you on the
diligence with which you looked into a few of the points from Shahak's book
"Jewish History, Jewish Religion."

Here's the main problem: in my opinion you can't see the forest for the trees.
Make that the twigs.

What's the forest in this case? Extremist currents in contemporary Zionism that
are exploiting negative elements in Judaism that express hateful attitudes
towards both non-Jews and Jews. Rabbi Meir Kahane's three columns a week in "The
Jewish Press," a newspaper with a relatively huge circulation in the Jewish
religious world, were only the tip of the iceberg. (By the way, some of those
columns by Kahane keep surfacing in these very newsgroups.)

Many Jewish writers preceding the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin had started to
look deeply into this problem, including Shahak. At the bottom of this post is a
partial list of some of the works which have examined negative elements in
Judaism and their use by extremists in contemporary Zionism.

After the assassination of Rabin by a religious extremist, Yigal Amir, all the
world media began looking closely into what had been the arcane domain of
specialized writers. If you look at Time, Newsweek, U.S. News and the New York
Times in the days and weeks following the Rabin assassination, you will find
many articles which discuss many of the concerns that Shahak has investigated
for years.

What I am trying to say, Richard, is that quibbling with Shahak over a few small
details is to miss the main point entirely. The problem isn't Shahak--it's the
dozens of major writers and thinkers who have explored the same territory as has
Shahak, and the willingness of the entire world, including the mass media, to
pay close attention to these issues in the aftermath of atrocities committed by
zealots like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir.

What you managed to do is turn up three points on which there is some complexity
in Judaism. You are preaching to the converted. I know that Judaism is a complex
religion of great diversity. But the fact that you can find counter-examples to
hateful doctrines--something which I already knew--doesn't eradicate the hateful
doctrines that are expounded by SOME authorities within Judaism.

I don't endorse or approve of everything Shahak says. I would guess that I am
much more sympathetic to religion in general and Judaism in particular than he
is. But I do think he that he has managed to put his finger on some major
problems in contemporary religious Zionism and traditional Judaism that have
been noticed by many other writers as well.

Your three posts quibbling about three relatively trivial points does not
effectively rebut the mass of thousands of points elsewhere in his book, which
generally are truthful in pointing out that there are negative elements in
Judaism, and that those negative elements are being used and abused in
contemporary Zionist and Israeli life by many religious Zionists.

Rabbi Meir Kahane and his followers, which included Baruch Goldstein and Yigal
Amir, is one notable example. There are many more.

Here is the list of works I mentioned. Which of them have you read?

If you want the short version, as I said before, simply consult the major
newsweeklies in the week or two following the Rabin assassination--the coverage
in U.S. News was especially good. You will have trouble dismissing Mortimer
Zuckerman (the owner of U.S. News) as an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew, I
think. The mainstream world media now readily acknowledge that Jewish
fundamentalism can be as bigoted and dangerous as Muslim or Christian
fundamentalism.

---Begin: Bibligraphy on Jewish Fundamentalism and Religious Zionism---

Breslauer, S. Daniel. Meir Kahane, Ideologue, Hero, Thinker.
Lewiston, NY: E. Mellen Press, 1986.

Brumberg, Abraham. Israel: Into the Abyss? Tikkun, May/June 1988,
v3 n3, pp. 51-55, 120-124.

Chomsky, Noam. The Fateful Triangle: the United States, Israel &
the Palestinians. Boston, MA: South End Press, 1983.

Efron, Noah J. Trembling With Fear: How Secular Israelis See the
Ultra-Orthodox, and Why. Tikkun, September/October 1991, v6 n5,
pp. 15-22, 88-90.

Friedman, Robert I. The False Prophet: Rabbi Meir Kahane: From
FBI Informant to Knesset Member. Brooklyn: Lawrence Hill Books,
1990.

Freidman, Robert I. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank
Settlement Movement. New York: Random House, 1992.

Friedman, Robert I. Making Way for the Messiah. The New York
Review of Books, v37 n15, October 11, 1990, pp. 41-7.

Friedman, Robert I. Terror on Sacred Ground; the Battle for the
Temple Mount. Mother Jones, v12 n6, August/September 1987, pp.
36-40, 42-44.

Halsell, Grace. Prophecy and Politics: The Secret Alliance
Between Israel and the U.S. Christian Right. Chicago, Illinois:
Lawrence Hill Books, 1986.

Harkabi, Yehoshafat. Israel's Fateful Hour. New York: Harper &
Row, 1988.

Hartman, David. Conflicting Visions: Spiritual Possibilities of
Modern Israel. New York: Schocken Books, 1990.

Heilman, Samuel C. Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox
Jewry. New York: Schocken Books, 1992.

Huppert, Uri. Back to the Ghetto: Zionism in Retreat. Buffalo,
New York: Prometheus Books, 1988.

Kahane, Meir. Israel: Revolution or Referendum? Secaucus, NJ:
Barricade Books, 1990.

Klein Halevi, Yossi. Memoirs of a Jewish Extremist: An American Story. Boston:
Little, Brown and Company, 1995.

Kotler, Yair. Heil Kahane. New York: Adama Books, 1986.

Landau, David. Piety and Power: The World of Jewish
Fundamentalism. New York: Hill and Wang, 1993.

Leibowitz, Yeshayahu. Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish
State. Edited by Eliezer Goldman. Cambridge, MA: Harvard
University Press, 1992.

Leshem, Moshe. Balaam's Curse: How Israel Lost Its Way, and How
It Can Find It Again. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1989.

Lustick, Ian S. For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism
in Israel. New York: Council on Foreign Relations, 1988.

Mergui, Raphael and Philippe Simonnot. Israel's Ayatollahs: Meir
Kahane and the Far Right in Israel. London; Atlantic Highlands,
NJ: Al-Saqi Books, 1987.

Neusner, Jacob. Can Judaism Survive the Twentieth Century?
Tikkun, v4 n4, July/August 1989, pp. 38-42.

Oz, Amos. In the Land of Israel. New York: Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich, 1983.

Oz, Amos. The Slopes of Lebanon. San Diego: Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich, 1989.

Patai, Raphael. The Messiah Texts. New York: Avon Books, 1979.

Rapoport, David C. Messianic Sanctions for Terror. Comparative
Politics, January 1988, pp. 195-213.

Ravitzky, Aviezer. Roots of Kahanism: Consciousness and Political
Reality. Jerusalem Quarterly, No. 39, 1986, pp. 90-108.

Reich, Tova. The Jewish War: A Novel. New York: Pantheon Books, 1995.

Rubinstein, Amnon. The Zionist Dream Revisited: from Herzl to
Gush Emunim and Back. New York: Schocken Books, 1984.

Ruether, Rosemary Radford and Herman J. Ruether. The Wrath of
Jonah: The Crisis of Religious Nationalism in the
Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989.

Seidler-Feller, Chaim. Not by Might and Not by Power: Kahanism
and Orthodoxy. Tikkun, v6 n1, January/February 1991, pp. 21-22.

Silberstein, Laurence J., editor. Jewish Fundamentalism in
Comparative Perspective: Religion, Ideology, and the Crisis of
Modernity. New York: New York University Press, 1993.

Sivan, Emmanuel and Menachem Friedman, eds. Religious Radicalism
and Politics in the Middle East. Albany, NY: State University of
New York Press, 1990.

Shahak, Israel. Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand
Years. London: Pluto Press, 1994.

Shipler, David K. Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised
Land. New York, N.Y.: Times Books, 1986.

Sicker, Martin. Judaism, Nationalism, and the Land of Israel.
Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1992.

Sprinzak, Ehud. The Ascendance of Israel's Radical Right. New
York: Oxford University Press, 1991.

Sprinzak, Ehud. Fundamentalism, Terrorism, and Democracy: The
Case of Gush Emunim. New Outlook, v31 n9, October 1988, pp. 8-14.

Viorst, Milton. Kach and Bull. Review of Robert Friedman's The
False Prophet: Rabbi Meir Kahane, From FBI Informant to Knesset
Member. Tikkun, v5 n5, September/October 1990, pp. 86-88.

Wieseltier, Leon. Kahane: The Making of a Jewish Monster. The New
Republic, v193 n20, November 11, 1985, pp. 15-21, 24-25.

---End---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:58 PDT 1996
Article: 52950 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:15:10 GMT
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Brendan McKay  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:

>> I think many Americans are proud overall of America's political system and
>> cultural and technological achievements. 
>
>No problem with pride, it is justified.  The problem is the national myth which
>says that America has a virtual monopoly on those things.

Brendan,

I guess I've been sheltered, because I honestly haven't run into this myth among
my fellow Americans. Americans tend to be quick to acknowledge excellence in
other cultures and nations, in my experience, and to savor that excellence.
(Probably that's why Japanese automobiles caught on so quickly here!)

Americans overall love other cultures, and are quick to praise and use their
best works. This is one American attitude I really like. If it's good, use it,
and don't worry about the origin.

>I am a frequent visitor to America (I lost count, maybe 15 times?) and I always
>enjoy it.  I have another visit coming up soon. 

Great--I'm glad you've enjoyed your trips. I'd love to visit Australia some day
(that is your home, right?), and Tasmania in particular, which I've heard is
stunningly beautiful. Australia has been very big for some time now in American
popular culture.

>As for your comments on various Jewish sects, you may or may not be correct in
>each case; I don't know enough about the subject to say.  What I do know is
>when I look at mainstream Jewish writing such as the Talmud, what I see is
>extraordinarily free of racial hatred if you consider it in context.  The
>context is that it was written at times in history when everyone divided the
>world into races, and that it was written by a people who were often oppressed.
>Dragging out a few things that would not fare well with the 1996 PC inquisitors
>will not impress me.

I just posted a list of works on Jewish fundamentalism and religious Zionism in
a note to Richard Schultz. Let me know if you get around to reading any of them.
I would recommend starting with Harkabi and Leibowitz.

With regard to the strength of xenophobic tendencies within some schools of
Judaism, religious Zionism and Zionism in general, I've noticed a disturbing
tendency among some people who regard themselves as Israeli leftists or
moderates to turn into ranting Kahanists under the slightest pressure (it's just
happened again in these newsgroups). Just examine some of the responses from
usually enlightened Israelis to the world's predominantly negative judgment on
Operation Grapes of Wrath and the Qana Massacre. Whether you want to blame this
"us against the world" attitude on provocative doctrines in the Jewish Bible or
the evil crimes of "the goyim" really doesn't matter much: the consequences of
this attitude are going to be quite destructive for Israel. Rabin and Peres have
understood the problem, and strove mightily to overcome it. To see Peres himself
succumb to it bodes ill.

It doesn't take much imagination to envision what kind of outcomes could from a
dynamic in which Israel views the entire world as its enemy. Go back and read
the Bible and check out some of the apocalyptic scenarios. The memetic code here
is a little scary.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:59 PDT 1996
Article: 52973 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Isaiah)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:21:12 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Try reading Isaiah.  Isaiah writes of a time of peace when "my people 
>Egypt, my strength Syria, and my inheritance Israel" will be at peace 
>withg one another and enrich one another.   

Ok, I read it (Isaiah). Please give me chapter and verse for the passage above.

You know, when you read the Bible in a certain mood, it is easy sometimes to
feel that you are having an unpleasant encounter with the most dangerous and
violent psychotic in world literature and world history: I am referring to
"God."

Isaiah, for instance, is brimming over with vengeance and violence.

This line really leaps out at one:

8 For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for
the controversy of Zion. 

"... recompences for the controversy of Zion." Hmmm....

If any of this mentality, personality and temperament manifested itself in
contemporary Mideast politics, the region would be heading for a Holocaust or
Armageddon.

---Begin---

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear,
and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 

2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all
their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the
slaughter. 

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their
carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled
together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth
off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree. 

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon
Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and]
with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the
LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls;
and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.


8 For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for
the controversy of Zion. 

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into
brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for
ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through
it for ever and ever. 

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the
raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion,
and the stones of emptiness. 

12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there,
and all her princes shall be nothing. 

13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the
fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for
owls. 

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the
island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest
there, and find for herself a place of rest. 

15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under
her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. 

16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail,
none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath
gathered them. 

17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by
line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they
dwell therein. 

---End---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:55:59 PDT 1996
Article: 52990 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:15:34 GMT
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>From  the most tribalist to the least tribalist (or from the least libertarian to
the most libertarian):

1. You divide the world into your tribe and everyone else.

2. You divide the world into a collection of tribes.

3. You divide the world into a collection of individuals.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:00 PDT 1996
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
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Doug,

Beautiful message below! The conceptual scheme is elegant and perfect, and makes
my point better than I did.

We have to be thinking about how to get the world on the track towards level 7
in Hayek's scheme (level 3 in mine).

Wayne

jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
wrote:

>From article <31a4aaa2.91476798@news.cybercom.net>,
>by wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire):
>> From the most tribalist to the least tribalist (or from the least
>> libertarian to the most libertarian):
>> 
>> 1. You divide the world into your tribe and everyone else.
>> 2. You divide the world into a collection of tribes.
>> 3. You divide the world into a collection of individuals.
>
>Cute, but F. A. Von Hayek, a very interesting Postwar German, had a far
>more interesting take on this, in the same order:
>
>1. You think in terms of a conflict between yourself and everyone else.
>	Extreme individualism.
>
>2. You think in terms of a conflict between your family and everyone else.
>	The steriotype of the isolated hillbilly family.
>
>3. You think in terms of a conflict between your clan and everyone else.
>	Note that a clan is typically made up of a group of related families.
>	Clans typically encourage exogamy -- you must marry outside your
>	clan.  Interclan battles typically involve kidnapping women to
>	add to your household.
>	
>4. You think in terms of a conflict between your tribe and everyone else.
>	Tribalism.  Note that a tribe is traditionally made up of a group
>	of clans sharing a common culture.
>
>5. You think in terms of a conflict between your nation and everyone else.
>	Nationalism.  Note that a nation is historically defined in terms
>	of a common language; most nations are historically made up of
>	multiple tribes.
>
>6. You think in terms of a conflict between your race and everyone else.
>	Racism.  Note that a race is typically defined by a shared gene
>	pool, typically spanning a continent and many linguistic groups.
>
>7. Your world view doesn't depend on thinking in terms of a conflict
>	between human groups.  You recognize that others are fundamentally
>	similar to yourself despite differences in family, clan, tribe,
>	language, and continent of origin.
>
>Hayek came up with this in attempting to figure out what was wrong with
>National Socialism in particular, and with Nationalism in general.  I find
>many of his arguments against nationalism quite compelling, both in his
>explanation of why nationalism was seen as a liberating movement in the
>1800s, and in his explanation of why it has become the curse of the 1900's.
>
>					Doug Jones
>					jones@cs.uiowa.edu

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:01 PDT 1996
Article: 53031 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:24:37 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> Please quote the passages from me in the Jewish Bible in which Israel and "the
>> nations" enjoy mutual equality and respect. I searched in vain to find such a
>> passage, but I discovered many passages which describe a master-slave
>> relationship between Israel and the nations.
>
>Try reading Isaiah.  Isaiah writes of a time of peace when "my people 
>Egypt, my strength Syria, and my inheritance Israel" will be at peace 
>withg one another and enrich one another.   

Roger,

The fact that you can find only one positive reference to "the nations" proves
the point that the negative references vastly outnumber the neutral or positive
references.

It seems to be a fair statement that within the ideological system of the Jewish
Bible that the concept of "the nations" is overwhelmingly negative and
insulting. Therefore, any term that refers to this concept (including "goyim")
is also usually negative.

>Secondly,  the Bible, from a Jewish perspective, is a book directed at 
>Jews and for Jews.  It was never meant, from our perspective, for anyone 
>else.  It, is the history and the Constitution of the Jewish People.  
>Where in the history and Constitution of any nation does it outline that 
>nation's relationship to other nations ?

Roger, if many Israelis are going to use the Jewish Bible as a blueprint for
contemporary political policy in Israel, and if Israel is going to request
massive financial, political and military aid from Americans, then Americans are
going to concern themselves with the doctrine they are lavishly supporting.

In many cases, that doctrine seems to be advocating unenlightened and
discriminatory attitudes towards non-Jews. There is a problem.

This problem needs to be discussed and worked out if Israel is going to stay on
good terms with America and the Western democratic world. You can't expect
outsiders both to make major sacrifices for Israel AND to violate their most
treasured values at the same time. That simply is not going to work.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:02 PDT 1996
Article: 53079 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:51:26 GMT
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Martin Fox  wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>>From the most tribalist to the least tribalist (or from the least libertarian to
>>the most libertarian):
>>
>>1. You divide the world into your tribe and everyone else.
>>
>>2. You divide the world into a collection of tribes.
>>
>>3. You divide the world into a collection of individuals.
>>--
>>Wayne McGuire
>>wmcguire@cybercom.net
>>http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
>
>So?

I think most of the major political conflicts and struggles through the end of
the millennia and well into the beginning of the next century are going to
revolve around these distinctions.

With regard to these on-going discussions, I think Israel, if it wants to
survive, is going to have to figure out how to orient its society more in the
direction of 3 (libertarianism) than 1 (tribalism).

This would be a gargantuan project and exercise in ideological engineering, to
say the least. I guess I am offering a challenge. I am waiting for a Jewish
genius to appear who can reconcile Judaism and Jewish civilization with advanced
political thinking in America and the West, in a way that is acceptable and
attractive to a majority of Jews and Israelis.

I am not sure this can be done, but I am hoping (messianically? ).

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:03 PDT 1996
Article: 53132 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim -- This Time Without Ranting
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:15:13 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>> Let's recap how this discussion about the goyim began: Israel launched Operation
>> Grapes of Wrath, which terrorized hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians
>> and murdered dozens of Lebanese children. 
>
>Wayne, did Operation Grapes of Wrath begin in a vacuum?  Was it a direct 
>attack on the peaceful residents of a peaceful village, simply because 
>someone in Israel had designs on the property values in Qana?

Avi,

I appreciate that you are trying to get back on a civil track. It is impossible
to conduct a useful discussion while engaging in personal attacks.

I am going to focus on this point for now.

The problem is, I know too much about Israel's involvement in Lebanon.

In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon under the pretext that it needed to stop the
shelling from the PLO coming over the northern border.

That explanation was a lie, and everyone knew it was a lie. George Ball, for
instance, said on the op-ed page of The New York Times at the time what everyone
knew: the PLO had not shelled Israel in a year and had kept its end of an
agreement with Israel.

See the problem?

So what was Israel's real motive? Amos Perlmutter offered one of the better
explanations in Foreign Affairs: Likud, Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon entered
Lebanon in order to smash Palestinian nationalism and prepare the way for
building Biblical Greater Israel in the occupied territories and beyond.
Destroying the PLO in Lebanon would have made it much easier for Israel to
consolidate its control over the West Bank and Gaza. Perlmutter probably got it
right. Other experts have pointed out that Israel may also well covet water
supplies in Lebanon.

Before Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, based on a lie, and terrorized Lebanese
civilians, there was no Hezbollah. Israeli state terrorism created Hezbollah.
Likud's dream of building Biblical Greater Israel is responsible for the mess
that Israel now finds itself in in Lebanon.

Israel lied again when it attacked Lebanon just recently. Robert Fisk and other
writers have pointed out that Israel, and not Hezbollah, broke the truce in the
latest round of hostilities which led to Operation Grapes of Wrath. Operation
Grapes of Wrath eerily resembles the 1982 invasion in almost every regard. It
started with a lie and ended with an atrocity.

These are the facts, Avi.

Until Operation Grapes of Wrath, I thought I might never write another word on
Mideast politics. I was hoping the peace process was on track, and that Israel
would cease to be such a troublesome issue in American politics.

What pushed me over the edge was seeing footage of the ambulance attack which
killed four young girls, and then reading Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak justify that
attack with the implication that Israel would kill more children. That was it
for me. I couldn't hold my tongue.

And then there was the Qana Massacre. And then there were Israel's further lies
about its behavior at Qana. And then there was Peres blaming the "goyim" for
Israel's immorality and dishonesty.

And that's where we stand now. I have no apologies for anything I've said in
these newsgroups. And I firmly believe that the world, including America, is not
going to tolerate much more behavior of this kind from Israel without expressing
its displeasure in ways that will get Israel's full attention.

The bottom line is that you and Kahanists like Jody Eisenman may end up in the
same political camp, thanks to the blunders of the Israeli government. How sad.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:04 PDT 1996
Article: 53179 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 04:50:48 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>None the less, the mistakes made above prove that Wayne could not
>have possibly read the verses he quoted.

You managed to completely miss the point of my post.

I've repeatedly said that the problem is not the word "goyim" but the concept of
"the nations,"  no matter what word is used to express it.

I did a search on "nations" in the King James Bible at

     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html

and browsed the results. References to "the nations" in the Jewish Bible are
overwhelmingly negative, contemptuous and hostile.

Your abusive and illogical response to these passages nicely proves the point.
You are starting to sound a bit like "God" in this book at his most uncivil, or
like Israel Tekhelet.

Wow, is this a hot button topic. Avi Jacobson went totally off the deep end when
confronted with this material, and now you. Who would have guessed that ten
minutes with a simple search engine for the Bible would produce such fireworks.

The only thing I can figure is that you have guilty conscience. The ideological
system in this language is as racist as it gets.

If any reader here is interested in exploring this subject further, I recommend
visiting the Web site above and playing around with a few searches.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:04 PDT 1996
Article: 53184 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:28:08 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>You're making an assumption about Nadler that may or may not be true.  
>You know less about Nadler, his opinions, his background, etc., than you 
>know about me or many of the people here, yet you choose to believe 
>Nadler.  Why ?  Because he says something you want to believe is true ?

No--because he managed to get his work published in "The New Republic," a
magazine which is quite protective of Jewish interests and which is somewhat
careful about not printing false information. For the time being, Nadler gets
the benefit of the doubt in my mind. He seems to know what he is talking about.

When I get a chance, I'll read the Tanya myself. I'm curious about what's in it.
In the meantime, if you can rebut Nadler with specific texts, go ahead and do
so.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 18:56:05 PDT 1996
Article: 53278 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Israel in Lebanon (Amos Oz)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 22:50:13 GMT
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.qml
.book excerpts

author=Amos Oz
title=The Slopes of Lebanon
city=San Diego
publisher=Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
year=1989

note=

Amos Oz in "The Slopes of Lebanon" (1989) accused Menachem Begin of invading
Lebanon in 1982 primarily in pursuit of a vision of Biblical Greater Israel.

excerpt=

(page=14)

     It was a war of deceit and brainwashing, the true goals of
     which had been concealed from the nation, from the soldiers,
     from the Knesset, and from most of the Cabinet.  Under the
     guise for peace for Galilee, Begin was going to crown the
     corrupt Gemayel family as rulers over all Lebanon, and turn
     Lebanon into a client state of Israel.  ("So what?  Why is
     it okay for Brezhnev?  Why is it okay for Assad?")  He was
     going to strike at the Syrian Army although it had not
     provoked Israel and had not caused a single Israeli casualty
     during the eight years since the signing of the
     Syrian-Israeli agreement at the end of the Yom Kippur War.
     He would do the Western world ("the ingrates") a favor by
     finishing off the PLO and thus, as these geniuses saw it,
     putting an end to the Palestinian problem.  He would win, as
     Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Eitan put it, "the war for
     the Land of Israel" (in other words, for the territories
     that we occupied during the Six-Day War), and perhaps clean
     up, once and for all, the mess in the Middle East.  The
     history writers were asked to take note that, unlike the
     Christian world, which had stood aside while Jews were being
     slaughtered, the Jews had not stood aside, but had gone to
     the rescue of their Christian brethren in Lebanon (to save
     them from the disaster they had brought down on themselves).
     The role of the sweet, innocent Little Red Riding Hood was
     thus given to the rotten Christian Phalangists, whose
     creation had been inspired by fascism.  Begin assumed the
     role of the noble woodsman who rescues Little Red Riding
     Hood from the jaws of the Islamic world, if not the role of
     the last Crusader.

     Indeed, if we are to judge by his speeches during that war,
     Menachem Begin went into Lebanon to fight a worldwide war
     against the enemies of Israel, from Amalek to Chmielnicki to
     Hitler: an awesome retribution for all that the Jews had
     suffered. Once and for all.

excerpt=

(page=29)

     Your real purpose is to reduce the Palestinians to a
     submissive group of serfs brought to its knees within the
     Greater Israel of your fantasies.

excerpt=

(page=30)

     The goal of this war is not "peace for Galilee."  You have
     misled the nation; just like those whom you and I have
     always despised, you have given the name "peace" to a
     calculated, instigated war.  The purpose of your war is to
     break the back of the Palestinian people, to install a
     "friendly" regime in Lebanon and to create--at the cost of
     lives of soldiers--conditions to make your dream of a
     Greater Israel come true.

excerpt=

(page=36)

     The war was born of a lie.  From the very start, it was a
     war initiated by Israel, a ready-made war waiting only for
     an opportunity or an excuse.  It wasn't intended to fend off
     a threat to Israel's very survival.  It was intended to rid
     us of a relentless irritant, even though that irritant in
     fact hadn't been felt for the last ten months.  There had
     been complete quiet along the Lebanese border.  Not a single
     casualty in ten months in the towns and villages of northern
     Israel.  It is spurious to claim that the war began on
     Sunday, June 6, 1982.  It began on Friday, June 4, 1982, at
     three o'clock in the afternoon, with a massive air raid on
     PLO targets in Beirut; the intention was to provoke the PLO
     into shelling villages in Galilee.  But this was already a
     rerun of a previous performance.  There had been an earlier
     attempt, in April, "to provoke a shelling barrage on
     Galilee"; however, at that time the PLO refused to play
     ball.  But this time their stupidity won out, and they did
     start a barrage.

     "Peace for Galilee" is a deceptive phrase.  War, even when
     it is fully justified, should not be called "peace."  Only
     in the world of brainwashing and tyranny described by George
     Orwell do such slogans as "War as peace," "Slavery is
     freedom," and "Ignorance is power" prevail.

     Begin's true goal was the classic Jabotinskyan one: to use
     force not in order to repel force, but primarily to
     reshuffle the world, to install a pliable regime in Lebanon,
     to conduct a "preventive" war against Syria, to wipe out the
     Palestinian problem, to perform a free service for what
     Begin likes to call "the free world."  In short, to change
     the face of the Middle East in one blow.  Begin knew very
     well that there was no national consensus on these goals, so
     he chose a spurious starting point from which to deceive not
     only the soldiers, not only the opposition, but even part of
     his own coalition.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:49 PDT 1996
Article: 72840 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Zionism, Racism and the Qana Massacre
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:49:02 GMT
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Subject: "JUST A BUNCH OF DIRTY, DEAD ARABS" - MER Special

M I D - E A S T    R E A L I T I E S   -   S P E C I A L  
[To receive MER regularly please send a message to
MIDDLEEAST@AOL.COM with the words "Send MER".
     **********************************************************

		JUST A BUNCH OF DIRTY, DEAD ARABS

That the Israeli and Jewish people tolerate in their midst -- not to 
mention in the highest ranks of the army and political leadership in
Israel -- clearly racist and bigoted persons is shameful.  Once such
ideology is tolerated then the steps to repetitive repression, torture
and massacre are sadly not large ones.  There is, as painful as it is
to point this out, a clear path from Deir Yassein to Sabra and Shattila 
and now to Qana -- with many other "incidents" along the way.  Racism 
is unfortunately still rampant in much of contemporary Zionist thinking 
and action.  Just a few years ago a former Chief of Staff of the Israeli 
Army compared the Palestinians to "drugged cockroaches in a bottle."  
And just a few years later a former Prime Minister publicly likened 
the Palestinians to "grasshoppers".

Two very recent examples:

1)  In a Reuters news story, dateline Jerusalem May 10 
but not widely reported in the U.S., the following:

                      WE SHOT WELL AND WERE TOLD TO CONTINUE

	"ISRAELI GUNNERS HAVE SAID THEY HAD NO REGRETS OVER KILLING MORE 
	THAN 100 CIVILIANS SHELTERING IN A UNITED NATIONS BASE IN SOUTHERN
	LEBANON BECAUSE THE DEAD WERE 'JUST A BUNCH OF ARABS'.  A SOLDIER,
	IDENTIFIED AS SERGEANT Y, WAS QUOTED BY THE JERUSALEM WEEKLY KOL
	HA'IR AS SAYING 'IT'S A WAR, IN A WAR THESE THINGS HAPPEN... IT'S
	JUST A BUNCH OF ARABS'.  THE SERGEANT...USED THE HEBREW DEROGATORY
	TERM 'ARABUSHIM', WHICH HAS NO ENGLISH EQUIVALENT...  ANOTHER SOLDIER
	FROM THE ARTILLERY BATTERY SAID THE COMMANDER GATHERED HIS TROOPS
	AFTER THE SHELLING FOR A TALK...  HE SAID WE WERE SHOOTING WELL 
	AND TO CONTINUE THIS WAY, AND THAT ARABS, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
	MILLIONS OF THEM."

2)  In a message from the IL-TALK Forum to Mid-East Realities from an 
American Jew active on this forum:

	"DEAR ASS HOLES:

	HOW LONG ARE YOU GOING TO MILK THIS STORY?
	IT'S JUST A FEW DIRTY ARABS WHO DIED.  BIG DEAL."
      
     **********************************************************
      	
		MID-EAST REALITIES
	News, Information, & Analysis that 
	Governments, Interest Groups, and 
	the Corporate Media Do Not Want 
		You To Know!
          
To receive MER regularly message to MIDDLEEAST@aol.com with the words
"Send MER". The half-hour cable TV Program "Mid-East Realities" shows 
weekly on the Cable systems in the Washington, D.C. area.  For 
information about the program and how to have it shown in your local 
area send a message with the words "MER TV".
                      
      +      +     +    E  N  D    +   MERSPE39   +      +       

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72846 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 21:14:28 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>Hm, any evidence that the Lubavitcher Rebbe had any anti-Black
>attitudes?

I recall seeing a number of articles in The Village Voice during various
commotions in Crown Heights which provided evidence of anti-black attitudes in
the Lubavitcher community. Perhaps I will look them up if I find the time.

>From  my own experience in cyberspace, I can report that nothing has matched the
vicious anti-black bigotry of some Orthodox Jews from Brooklyn and vicinity. One
such Orthodox Jew, who was also a vociferous supporter of Biblical Greater
Israel and Menachem Schneerson, compared the skin color of an African-American
to "shit." This was not an isolated incident of bigotry. There is an obvious
pattern, one which can be documented with a little effort.

You didn't address the larger point, regarding the meaning of the word "goyim."
Is it true that Hasidic doctrine and theology don't hold non-Jews to be equal
with Jews?

Be careful how you answer. The truth is easy to ascertain and reproduce on the
Internet.

You also had nothing to say about the five other posts which documented Jewish
bigotry and hatred towards "goyim."

As I recall, btw, Rabbi Ginsberg, who claims that the blood of Jews and goyim is
not the same, was strongly defended in two major Jewish publications on the
Internet: Shomrom News and Arutz-7.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72857 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 10:32:55 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>Hm, any evidence that the Lubavitcher Rebbe had any anti-Black
>attitudes?

Perhaps the following post sheds some light on the subject:

---BEGIN---
05/15/96
Crown Hts, Brooklyn, NYC

Jewish vigilantes who beat an African-American man last week were indicted
by a grand jury today. Eli Rogatsky, 20, and Josef Prus, 39, face charges
of assault & criminal possession of a weapon for savagely beating handyman
Kenneth Hartley, 36, who is Black.

Hassidic residents stood by and did nothing when the vigilantes assaulted
Hartley in front of a crowd of pre-teens. Other area residents called
police, who then tried to arrest the vigilantes. The incident led to riots
by Hassidics till the wee hours of the morning, keeping Mayor Jiuliani up
all night trying to mediate.

According to the indictments, the pair, backed up by other Hassidics,
beat, punched and kicked Hartley and struck him with their radios. Eleven
other Jews were arrested in the all-night affair in the racially divided
neighborhood.

The Rev. Al Sharpton, who spoke on behalf of the victim, said the
indictments were "a good first step." "We're monitoring to make sure there
is no inappropriate plea-bargaining and that they go to trial and that
they prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law."

The Hassidics repeatedly referred to Hartley as a "Schwartze." Prus and
Rogatsky are members of the Shomrin Volunteer Patrol and confronted
Hartley in the mistaken belief his 8-year-old nephew had stolen a bicycle.
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72883 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Qana (A report from TIME Magazine)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 20:10:09 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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noltemei@ira.uka.de (Sven Noltemeier) wrote:

>>   It's
>> the usual incompetence and lackadaisical attitude. Nothing sinister,
>> nothing diabolical, certainly not premeditated.
>
>I hope I didn't suggest that.  I never was suspicious of the IDF as wanting
>to kill civilians.  And not even wanting to kill so many in a counter attack
>which goes after terrorists.

In the ambulance incident which occurred before before Qana, the IDF OFFICIALLY
defended killing two women and four young girls riding in a clearly marked
ambulance, on the grounds that Israel was seeking a kill a terrorist also
present in the ambulance. (As it turned out, according to the Los Angeles Times,
there was no terrorist in the ambulance.)

Do you understand the implications of this?

It is the official policy of the Israeli government to murder innocent
civilians, including children, if they are in the vicinity of anyone whom Israel
has labelled a terrorist.

The unofficial policy may well be more sinister: Israel could be pursuing the
policy it has used for decades now: terrorizing civilians in order to drive them
>from  land Israel covets or to beat them into submission.

The fact is, Israel was born in terrorism and has never stopped using terrorism.
By any objective and reasonable definition of terrorism, Israel is, and has
always been, a terrorist state. Qana was hardly an anomaly. Israel introduced
modern terrorism, including the car bomb and other methods, into the Mideast.

Israel uses the word "terrorism" in an entirely propagandistic, manipulative and
dishonest way. To the extent that Americans have fallen for this nonsense, we
have severely undermined our ability to promote a credible anti-terrorism
policy.

Bill Clinton and Al Gore are now officially on the record as condoning the
murder of children by Israel.

Even the Reagan Administration couldn't stomach Sabra and Shatilla. But Clinton
and Gore find the massacre at Qana to be perfectly acceptable. Keep this in mind
the next time you hear Clinton and Gore conspicuously displaying their
compassion and concern about terrorism.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72888 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 20:24:24 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>PS. I have learned Tanya.  I don't think one can say the Goyim are Satanic
>based on Tanya.  Sounds like Shahak is suffering from the title of his
>book of what you quote he is raving.

Is there an English translation of this work? Do you have a cite? I'll examine
it myself and reach my own conclusions.

In a review of a book about the Lubavitcher movement which appeared in The New
Republic some time ago, the reviewer also remarked that the Hasidim hold
virulently racist views towards non-Jews. I've seen the charge made repeatedly
in many reputable magazines and journals.

What most convinces me that Shahak is speaking truthfully is pondering the
literally thousands of racist posts from Orthodox Jews I have seen on the Usenet
over the years, all of which are fine examples of Jewish hate in cyberspace.
Clearly these people are learning their racism and imbibing their hatred from a
source or authority or doctrine.

People who hate others tend to attract others who hate them.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:55 PDT 1996
Article: 72929 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 07:54:23 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>>I recall seeing a number of articles in The Village Voice during various
>>commotions in Crown Heights which provided evidence of anti-black attitudes in
>>the Lubavitcher community. Perhaps I will look them up if I find the time.
>
>THis is irrelevant to Shahak's contention that the Lubavitcher Rebbe
>had "anti-Black attitudes"  I believe, and cited some things that indicate
>this is a 100% false claim.  The burden of proof is on Shahak to back this
>up.

As I recall, Schneerson didn't even have the decency to express his condolences
to the parents of the children which were run down by a car in his entourage.
How do you interpret that?

In any case, I just posted evidence from the New Republic proving that the
ideology of the Lubavitchers is drenched in hatred for non-Jews--that would
include the vast majority of African-Americans.

>>You also had nothing to say about the five other posts which documented Jewish
>>bigotry and hatred towards "goyim."
>
>I am free to address any issue I wish to.

Well, of course you are. But if you fail to deal with the totality of the
evidence, and focus on one peripheral detail, you will leave the strong
impression that you can't answer the main charge, to wit, that "goyim" is often
a derogatory and hate-filled term.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:56 PDT 1996
Article: 72930 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:01:25 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <319ed3d8.121808375@news.cybercom.net>
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>This *is* and *should* be a separation between the various peoples.
>I find the hypocrisy within the concept of "universality" in both
>classical Islam and classical CHristianity to be sickengly hypocritical.
>Both regimes claim that we are all equal, we all have same souls, we should
>all love each other yet everyone knows that the intent of all this "love"
>is to submerge, absorb and then erase Jews into the "mainstream" universal
>religion.  Sorry, be we all do have *different* souls, and we will remain
>J*E*W*S.@!!!!!!  Jews actually do respect other peoples because we 
>allow this seperation...  the other attitudes of unversality are the
>ones that are really bent on erasing all the "small peoples", and
>"indigenous nations"

Wow. According to you, to be a Jew is to reject the notion that all human beings
share souls equally and should love one another. You also assert that Jews have 
"different" souls than the rest of the human race.

It is difficult to view this as other than a racist and discriminatory doctrine,
and one which inevitably arouse hostility in the world. Here we have a
quintessential expression of primitive messianic tribalism, one which is
profoundly at odds with all modern and enlightened views about ethics.

Here's a small hint: don't ask for favors from people whose souls you claim are
"different" from yours.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:57 PDT 1996
Article: 72931 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:03:21 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <319ed56c.122212056@news.cybercom.net>
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>> Is there an English translation of this work? Do you have a cite? I'll examine
>> it myself and reach my own conclusions.
>
>Evidently your way has been to reach your own conclusions first.

Let me ask again, since you didn't answer the question: where can I find an
English copy of this work. I intend to read it and see if Shahak is telling the
truth. So far everything by Shahak I've looked into has checked out. He is very
careful about his facts.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:58 PDT 1996
Article: 72932 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace (Ken Sperry)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:26:33 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Topics
-Jewish Verbal Violence and Personal Abuse

Notes
-The author, Ken Sperry, failed to produce a single rational or factual message
pertaining the topics at hand: Operation Grapes of Wrath, the Qana Massacre, and
the meaning of the terms "goy" and "goyim."
-The newsgroups talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel
have been inundated with this kind verbal violence and personal abuse for years.
Fortunately all of it has been archived.

---BEGIN---
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From: sperry@zot.io.org (ken)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: IGNORE WAYNE MCGUIRE (formerly MCGUIRE IS SCUM)
Date: 19 May 1996 02:07:19 -0400
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soc.culture.jewish:75926


Please ignore Wayne McGuire.  He is not interested in the Middle East, nor
in Israel.  He is an anti-Semite only interested in attacking Jews and
Judaism.   He is a fifth-rate gutter rat, well-known on other newsgroups for
his virulent anti-Semitism.  Do not be baited into arguing over books,
articles, opinions etc. with this jerk, as his only interest is to vent
his hate towards Jews.  As in all other newsgroups, he'll leave after a little
bit, only to resurface six to 12 months later.  Don't bother with him, and as
with  most childish fools, he'll be frustrated if no attention is
paid to him and he'll leave.


K. Sperry
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:46:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72955 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 15:05:52 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <319f38a0.147612255@news.cybercom.net>
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On Sun, 19 May 1996 10:38:25 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne, 
>
>You know I am Orthodox in leanings, and yet you have never heard hatred 
>from me of anyone for being what they are.

Roger,

Your posts for the last months have been among the most reasonable and least
hateful on the Usenet. Anyone who would accuse the Orthodox collectively of
trafficking in hate would be a liar and a smear artist. But some Orthodox Jews,
like some Christians and Muslims, obviously do hold bigoted and fanatical views,
and they are a force to contend with in Israeli and world politics.

The zealot who pulled the trigger on Israel's Prime Minister was not a Christian
or a Muslim or a Nazi, and there are many more like him out there.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:00 PDT 1996
Article: 72956 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Absurdity
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 15:07:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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On Sun, 19 May 1996 10:43:35 -0400, Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> As I recall, Schneerson didn't even have the decency to express his condolences
>> to the parents of the children which were run down by a car in his entourage.
>> How do you interpret that?
>
>No need to interpret.  Schneerson at the time was incapacitated ....

Did representatives of Schneerson have the decency to contact the parents and
offer them sympathy?

>> In any case, I just posted evidence from the New Republic proving that the
>> ideology of the Lubavitchers is drenched in hatred for non-Jews--that would
>> include the vast majority of African-Americans.
>
>That's absurd (and I'm not all that sympathetic to the Lubavitchers on 
>many issues). 

What facts are mistaken in Nadler's New Republic article about the Lubavitchers
and their attitudes towards non-Jews?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:01 PDT 1996
Article: 72978 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 03:49:27 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <319fea60.193123289@news.cybercom.net>
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szs@ultranet.com (Stephen Z. Stein) wrote:

>In article <319cc20b.26145543@news.cybercom.net>, wmcguire@cybercom.net
>(Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>> szs@ultranet.com (Stephen Z. Stein) wrote:
>> 
>> >If you seek to defame "Hasidim and Martin Buber", please use their words,
>> >and not Shahak's.  I challenge you to come up with original citations.
>> 
>> I challenge you to rebut the information in the passage from Shahak. 
>> You made no effort whatsoever to do so.
>
>Sorry, Wayne.  That's not how the game is played.
>You made the claim.  Back up your sources!
>
>That's twice I've had to ask you.

I've produced around a dozen well-documented quotes on this general subject by
now. As soon as you've produced some documentation of your own, you'll have the
right to demand some more research from me.

The quote I found most compelling was that from Allan Nadler in The New
Republic. Martin Peretz is not in the habit of defaming the Jewish people or any
part of the Jewish tradition with false charges. No one here has rebutted
Nadler, whose accusations were even more damning than Shahak's.

As soon as someone here points me to English versions of the core documents of
the Lubavitchers and Hasidim in general, I will look at them. I suspect that
some people here would prefer that they remain out of sight and out of mind.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:01 PDT 1996
Article: 73021 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 22:59:58 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>THis is (another!) example of twisting what is said by combining a false
>and true statment in one sentence.  THere are different kinds of souls
>at the individual and national level; I did say that.

Different "souls" at the national level? What does that mean? This sounds like a
Nazilike doctrine to me. Explain to me why it isn't. According to Allan Nadler
in The New Republic article I quoted, what "different" means in Lubavitcher
doctrine is that Jewish souls collectively occupy the pinnacle of spirituality,
while the evil souls of the goyim occupy the nadir.

Ideologies and doctrines which assign rigid categories of the spirit to
collectivities--especially to nations, races and ethnic groups--invariably stir
up hatred and violence. I can't think of a single exception. The term to
describe this kind of mentality is "messianic tribalism." The Nazis are a
classic example.

>It is abundantly clear that it is your ideas that are intended on arousing
>hostility.  You are simply making a pun on the word discriminate.
>Discriminating the differences between "peoples" and "nations" does
>not mean that one is going to "discriminate" against someones legal
>civil rights, or human rights.

But that is in fact precisely what happens when various ethnic, racial and
national groups make mystical distinctions about their collective souls: they
discriminate against the legal and civil rights of tribal outsiders. Israel is
an excellent example.

>however your ethics
>are not "modern and enlightened" they are just "majoritarian and 
>globalist"  I too can play the inflammatory label game too.

I believe in judging people as individuals, not by their tribal affiliations.
That is a distinctly American viewpoint, and it is also a modern and enlightened
viewpoint, in my opinion.

All tribes contain good and bad people. Any other view invariably leads to
bigotry and racism, and quite often to genocide.

No tribe has a monopoly on virtue or a special pipeline to God.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:02 PDT 1996
Article: 73040 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:52:14 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Topics
-Jewish Verbal Violence and Personal Abuse

Notes
-As in Ken Sperry's similar hate message, Kaufman made no effort to address in a
rational and factual way the substantive issues in current discussions.
-Mark Ira Kaufman has been one of the most prolific contributors of Jewish hate
speech on the Usenet for quite a few years. His many hundreds of hate messages
practically define the genre.

---BEGIN---
Path:
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From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: IGNORE WAYNE MCGUIRE (formerly MCGUIRE IS SCUM)
Date: 20 May 1996 13:27:01 GMT
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sperry@zot.io.org (ken) writes...
 
 
> Please ignore Wayne McGuire.  
 
That's as easy to do as ignoring a stone in one's shoe (no insult to the
stone intended).
 
 
> He is not interested in the Middle East, nor in Israel.  
 
True.
 
 
> He is an anti-Semite only interested in attacking Jews and Judaism.   
 
True.
 
 
> He is a fifth-rate gutter rat, well-known on other newsgroups for his 
> virulent anti-Semitism.  
 
Aren't you being a bit hard on the other fifth-rate gutter rats of the 
world?
 
 
> Do not be baited into arguing over books, articles, opinions etc. with 
> this jerk, as his only interest is to vent his hate towards Jews.  As in 
> all other newsgroups, he'll leave after a little bit, only to resurface 
> six to 12 months later.  Don't bother with him, and as with  most childish 
> fools, he'll be frustrated if no attention is paid to him and he'll leave.
 
 
K. Sperry
 
While your assessment of Mr. McGuire is flattering, I can no more ignore him
than I could any other type of cancer.  For cancer is what he is.
 
The problem is that there are people in this world so uninformed that they
might regard the nonsense Mr. McGuire spews as the truth, if that is all
they are exposed to.  If his bigotry is left unanswered, how can those of 
us who care for truth complain when people exposed only to McGuire's hateful 
posts take them for the truth? 

  _________________________________________________________________________
 |                                                                         |
 |         /\                                                              |
 |    ____/_ \____      Mark Ira Kaufman  aa824@cleveland.freenet.edu      |
 |    \  ___\ \  /                                                         |
 |     \/ /  \/ /       "The difference between genius and stupidity       |
 |     / /\__/_/\        is that genius has its limits."                   | 
 |    /__\ \_____\                                                         |
 |        \  /                                  - Albert Einstein          |
 |         \/                                                              |
 |_________________________________________________________________________|
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:03 PDT 1996
Article: 73048 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:23:08 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:
>: People who hate others tend to attract others who hate them.
>
>: --
>: Wayne McGuire
>: wmcguire@cybercom.net
>: http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
>
>I couldn't have put it better myself. Wayne, why do you continue to 
>sprout your hatred here?

It's interesting that you, Ken Sperry, Mark Ira Kaufman and Richard Schultz have
all thrown in the towel in attempting to discuss reasonably any of the current
controversies on the table--Operation Grapes of Wrath, the Qana Massacre, the
meaning of "goyim," etc.--and have instead been reduced to hurling the verbal
abuse which has almost become the trademark of so many militant Israelis and
Israeli supporters. What that tells any intelligent reader is that you can't
defend any of your positions on those issues by relying on facts, logic or
ethics. You are driven completely by angry emotion and tribal hormones.

Just out of curiosity: are all four of you coming from the fundamentalist end of
the Jewish spectrum? That would explain a lot.

What's fascinating is watching zealots who defend or rationalize the murder of
children lecturing the world about "hatred." By now "the nations" (and certainly
the world media) have entirely written you off. They understand quite well where
you're coming from and are not likely to cut you any slack in the future. You
are digging yourself into an ever deeper hole politically, and when you come
crying for help to dig yourself out, you'll probably discover that you've
irrevocably alienated everyone that could lend a hand. The self-destructiveness
of the behavior one sees on display here is simply astonishing.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:04 PDT 1996
Article: 73064 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:13:56 GMT
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yisroel@sover.net (Jacobs) wrote:

>Defaming the Rebbe is truly pathetic.  

How can one possibly further defame a charlatan who encouraged his gullible
followers to believe he was the messiah? He's another Sabbatai Sevi, although
not nearly as influential, thank God. The embarrassment could have been worse
than it was.

>The Tanya explains the differences between Jew and Non-Jew rather well. 

Please give me a cite for an English version of the work. I will read it from
front to back carefully. If Shahak has misrepresented the work, I will take him
to task here and set the record straight. I can't imagine that Shahak would lie
about the content of the book, but you never know.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:05 PDT 1996
Article: 73068 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:07:51 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>THis is irrelevant to Shahak's contention that the Lubavitcher Rebbe
>had "anti-Black attitudes"  I believe, and cited some things that indicate
>this is a 100% false claim. 

What "some things" did you cite that prove definitively that Menachem
Schneerson, the supposed messiah, didn't hold anti-black attitudes? Apparently
the message didn't reach my ISP.

There has been widespread discussion about racism in the Orthodox community,
including the Lubavitchers, in The Village Voice and elsewhere. The behavior of
elements of the Lubavitchers in the present mess just reported on the newswires
indicates that there is a major problem in this regard in the Lubavitcher
community. Vigilantism of that intensity doesn't spring out of a vacuum.

One New Yorker cover, painted by Art Spiegel as I recall, played on and twitted
this well-known racism: it depicted a Hasid-type in the embrace of a black
woman.

When one observes the callousness and heartlessness with which so many Jews here
have dismissed the slaughter of children in Lebanon, you've got to wonder about
their foundational ideologies and attitudes towards non-Jews. Only Michael Stein
managed to make a credible moral statement on that subject. Richard Schultz
couldn't even make the connection between the lessons of the Holocaust and the
commission of mass terrorism against civilians in Lebanon.

Allan Nadler in The New Republic stated that the founder of Lubavitch believed
that the souls of goyim (of which African-Americans are members) are inferior to
the souls of Jews.

In any case, you selected only one sentence in the passage from Shahak, and
ignored all the rest of his assertions. Perhaps you would care to set the record
straight on those other matters, which include a few dozen factual statements.

.qml
.book excerpt

author=Israel Shahak
title=Jewish History, Jewish Religion
subtitle=The Weight of Three Thousand Years
city=London; Boulder, CO
publisher=Pluto Press
year=1994

excerpt=

(page=26)

     My final, more general example is, if possible, even more
     shocking than the others. It concerns the attitude of the
     Hassidic movement towards non-Jews. Hassidim--a continuation
     (and debasement!) of Jewish mysticism--is still a _living_
     movement, with hundreds of thousands of active adherents who
     are fanatically devoted to their `holy rabbis', some of whom
     have acquired a very considerable political influence in
     Israel, among the leaders of most parties and even more so
     in the higher echelons of the army.

     What, then, are the views of this movement concerning
     non-Jews? As an example, let us take the famous _Hatanya_,

(page=27)

     fundamental book of the Habbad movement, one of the most
     important branches of Hassidism. According to this book, all
     non-Jews are totally satanic creatures `in whom there is
     absolutely nothing good.' Even a non-Jewish embryo is
     qualitatively different from a Jewish one. The very
     existence of a non-Jew is `inessential', whereas all of
     creation was created solely for the sake of the Jews.

     This book is circulated in countless editions, and its ideas
     are further propagated in the numerous `discourses' of the
     present hereditary Fuehrer of Habbad, the so-called
     Lubavitcher rabbi, M.M. Schneurssohn, who leads this
     powerful world-wide organisation from his New York
     headquarters. In Israel these ideas are widely disseminated
     among the public at large, in the schools and in the army.
     (According to the testimony of Shulamit Aloni, Member of the
     Knesset, this Habbad propaganda was particularly stepped up
     before Israel's invasion of Lebanon in March 1978, in order
     to induce military doctors and nurses to withhold medical
     help from `Gentile wounded'. This Nazi-like advice did not
     refer specifically to Arabs or Palestinians, but simply to
     `Gentiles', _goyim_.) A former Israeli President, Shazar,
     was an ardent adherent of Habbad, and many top Israeli and
     American politicians--headed by Prime Minister
     Begin--publicly courted and supported it. This, in spite of
     the considerable unpopularity of the Lubavitcher rabbi--in
     Israel he is widely criticised because he refuses to come to
     the Holy Land even for a visit and keeps himself in New York
     for obscure messianic reasons, while in New York his
     anti-Black attitude is notorious.

     The fact that, _despite_ these pragmatic difficulties,
     Habbad can be publicly supported by so many top political
     figures owes much to the thoroughly disingenuous and
     misleading treatment by almost all scholars who have written
     about the Hassidic movement and its Habbad branch. This
     applies particularly to all who have written or are writing
     about it in English. They suppress the glaring evidence of
     the old Hasidic texts as well as the latter-day political
     implications that follow from them, which stare in the face
     of even a casual reader of the Israeli Hebrew press, in
     whose pages the Lubavitcher rabbi and other Hassidic leaders
     constantly publish the most rabid bloodthirsty statements
     and exhortations against all Arabs.

     A chief deceiver in this case, and a good example of the
     power of the deception, was Martin Buber. His numerous works
     eulogising the whole Hassidic movement (including Habbad)
     never so much as hint at the real doctrines of Hassidism
     concerning non-Jews. The crime of deception is all the
     greater in view of the fact that Buber's eulogies of

(page=28)

     Hassidism were first published in German during the period
     of the rise of German nationalism and the accession of
     Nazism to power. But while ostensibly opposing Nazism, Buber
     glorified a movement holding and actually teaching doctrines
     about non-Jews not unlike the Nazi doctrines about Jews. One
     could of course argue that the Hassidic Jews of seventy or
     fifty years ago were the victims, and a `white lie'
     favouring a victim is usually excusable. But the
     consequences of deception are incalculable. Buber's works
     were translated into Hebrew, were made a powerful element of
     the Hebrew education in Israel, have greatly increased the
     power of the bloodthirsty Hassidic leaders, and have thus
     been an important factor in the rise of Israeli chauvinism
     and hate of all non-Jews. If we think about the many human
     beings who died of their wounds because Israeli army nurses,
     incited by Hassidic propaganda, refused to tend them, then a
     heavy onus for their blood lies on the head of Martin Buber.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:06 PDT 1996
Article: 73135 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: You've Got to Love Barak
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 09:44:27 GMT
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There's a fascinating profile of Ehud Barak in this morning's New York Times at

     http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/world/israel-politics.html

The man has a true gift of expression; you've got to love it. Listen to the man:

---BEGIN---
          "The historic moment of truth," he continued, "was when Rabin reached
the conclusion that there is no way but to cut the Gordian knot to separate us
>from  the Palestinians. 

          "We knew in advance that there would be a long period of suffering
before the fruit would appear. We realized that the passage from the old Middle
East to a new one is not just closing the door on the dark and backward old
Middle East and finding your way in a shiny hall. There is a long corridor you
have to fight through, but there is a light at the end." 

...

          "Bibi was a good young officer," Barak acknowledged, using the
nickname by which Netanyahu is universally known. "I tried to convince him to
stay in the army longer. He was good at that, but that does not make him an
appropriate candidate to run the country. He's pragmatic, he made a good
spokesman, he'd be good at many jobs, but he's not competent to run this
country." 

          "Comparing him to Shimon," Barak concluded, with an analogy anyone in
this basketball-crazy country would understand, "is like comparing a Trinity
sophomore to an NBA pro." 

...

          Probably the most remarkable transition from soldier to statesman for
Barak was to sit at negotiations with people he had previously spent
considerable effort trying to kill, especially Yasser Arafat. 

          "It was quite surrealistic to shake his hand," Barak acknowledged.
"But basically I never hated any Arab, either those that I killed or those who
killed my best friends. We were in a mission for the last two generations to
defend the creation and establishment of our own entity, and I can speak for
many other Israelis, that there's never been any hatred for Arabs. I wish that
on the Arab side there was a kind of change of attitude toward Israel." 

          "I'm asked if I'm a hawk or a dove," he added. "I say I'm a hawk on
existential problems, and a dove on moral ones." 
---END---

I'm not trying to defend all of Barak's history and politics--I don't know that
much about them. But after Peres wins the upcoming election and serves out his
term, it seems that Barak might make an excellent Israeli Prime Minister to
follow Peres. How often do you find world leaders that are fun to listen to?
He's tough, he's diplomatic, he's a realistic idealist, he has brains, and he
has wit. The West is going to like this guy.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73227 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:18:58 GMT
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bdissen@netvision.net.il (Binyamin Dissen) wrote:

>:>But that is in fact precisely what happens when various ethnic, racial and
>:>national groups make mystical distinctions about their collective souls: they
>:>discriminate against the legal and civil rights of tribal outsiders. Israel is
>:>an excellent example.
>
>How?? Please elaborate?

Perhaps you could explain why the house of Yigal Amir's parents is still
standing.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73228 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:21:25 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> No tribe has a monopoly on virtue or a special pipeline to God.
>
>Then you seem to agree with Jewish philosophy, Wayne.
>
>It's Christianity, not Judaism, that claims to own the only pipeline.

Please quote the passages from me in the Jewish Bible in which Israel and "the
nations" enjoy mutual equality and respect. I searched in vain to find such a
passage, but I discovered many passages which describe a master-slave
relationship between Israel and the nations.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:08 PDT 1996
Article: 73229 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:23:19 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>> The quote I found most compelling was that from Allan Nadler in The New
>> Republic. Martin Peretz is not in the habit of defaming the Jewish people or any
>> part of the Jewish tradition with false charges. No one here has rebutted
>> Nadler, whose accusations were even more damning than Shahak's.
>
>I have rebutted Nadler's opinion with my opinion, which I suggest is at 
>least of equal value if not better academically and religiously and in 
>terms of familiarity with the original source documents.
>
>> As soon as someone here points me to English versions of the core documents of
>> the Lubavitchers and Hasidim in general, I will look at them. I suspect that
>> some people here would prefer that they remain out of sight and out of mind.
>
>I would not know where to refer you Wayne.

In other words, you are attempting to rebut Nadler without having read the texts
to which he is referring. Nadler formed his opinions on the basis of actually
having the read the texts under discussion.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:09 PDT 1996
Article: 73243 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Good guy, bad guy
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:44:43 GMT
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Allen Elias  <100274.346@CompuServe.COM> wrote:

(quoting Charles Krauthammer)

>     Nor is it just the US government. The full weight of American  elite
>opinion  has  been  deployed  in   media coverage  and  editorial commentary
>favoring  Peres  and denigrating  his opponent Binyamin Netanyahu.  The  theme
>endlessly  repeated in the echo chamber of  the  American press  and encouraged
>by a highly partisan administration is that Peres wants peace and Netanyahu
>doesn't.

I stated repeatedly in some of these newsgroups YEARS ago that American and
Western elite opinion was polarizing against the expansionist policies of Likud.
Many Israeli supporters scoffed at my analysis, but I was right.

The realpolitik angle is easy to comprehend for anyone who isn't a messianic
ideologue:

1. Israel is totally dependent on American aid.

2. Israel has forced America to become deeply involved in Israel's conflicts.

3. Many of Israel's actions can severely damage American interests because of
this unhealthy arrangement.

4. America is profoundly concerned to prevent Israel from damaging American
interests.

5. Likud's expansionist policies in the pursuit of Biblical Greater Israel would
damage American interests.

6. Consequence: Netanyahu is not a popular person among policy elites in America
and the West.

Most policy-makers and opinion elites in the West are turned off these days by
any sign or indication of messianism in Israel or Israeli supporters. Messianism
= big trouble.

Those Israelis and Israeli supporters who dislike this state of affairs should
stop depending on America for Israel's existence. It's really as simple as that.
The problem is, it's difficult to see how Israel could ever become the truly
independent nation that the dreamer Herzl envisioned. Israel is arguably the
least independent state in the history of the world, which helps explain in part
why so many Zionists are in a perpetual state of rage and hysteria.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:10 PDT 1996
Article: 73277 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:17:40 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>
>>Just out of curiosity: are all four of you coming
> from the fundamentalist end of
>>the Jewish spectrum? That would explain a lot.
>
>Looking for some more data points to corroborate your prejudice?
>I suspect you are using "fundamentalist" to mean "those sorts
>of jews who are religious and have politics i don't like".

Fundamentalist = Orthodox or Ultra-Orthodox, or religious Zionist. Someone who
believes the Torah provides a blueprint for contemporary political activity. One
runs into very few Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or secular Jews who
read the Torah in a strictly literal way.

So, are you Orthodox?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:11 PDT 1996
Article: 73444 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israel Shahak, Religious Zionism and Jewish Fundamentalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:41:45 GMT
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This is for Richard Schultz:

Richard,

I read your three posts on Shahak carefully, and congratulate you on the
diligence with which you looked into a few of the points from Shahak's book
"Jewish History, Jewish Religion."

Here's the main problem: in my opinion you can't see the forest for the trees.
Make that the twigs.

What's the forest in this case? Extremist currents in contemporary Zionism that
are exploiting negative elements in Judaism that express hateful attitudes
towards both non-Jews and Jews. Rabbi Meir Kahane's three columns a week in "The
Jewish Press," a newspaper with a relatively huge circulation in the Jewish
religious world, were only the tip of the iceberg. (By the way, some of those
columns by Kahane keep surfacing in these very newsgroups.)

Many Jewish writers preceding the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin had started to
look deeply into this problem, including Shahak. At the bottom of this post is a
partial list of some of the works which have examined negative elements in
Judaism and their use by extremists in contemporary Zionism.

After the assassination of Rabin by a religious extremist, Yigal Amir, all the
world media began looking closely into what had been the arcane domain of
specialized writers. If you look at Time, Newsweek, U.S. News and the New York
Times in the days and weeks following the Rabin assassination, you will find
many articles which discuss many of the concerns that Shahak has investigated
for years.

What I am trying to say, Richard, is that quibbling with Shahak over a few small
details is to miss the main point entirely. The problem isn't Shahak--it's the
dozens of major writers and thinkers who have explored the same territory as has
Shahak, and the willingness of the entire world, including the mass media, to
pay close attention to these issues in the aftermath of atrocities committed by
zealots like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir.

What you managed to do is turn up three points on which there is some complexity
in Judaism. You are preaching to the converted. I know that Judaism is a complex
religion of great diversity. But the fact that you can find counter-examples to
hateful doctrines--something which I already knew--doesn't eradicate the hateful
doctrines that are expounded by SOME authorities within Judaism.

I don't endorse or approve of everything Shahak says. I would guess that I am
much more sympathetic to religion in general and Judaism in particular than he
is. But I do think he that he has managed to put his finger on some major
problems in contemporary religious Zionism and traditional Judaism that have
been noticed by many other writers as well.

Your three posts quibbling about three relatively trivial points does not
effectively rebut the mass of thousands of points elsewhere in his book, which
generally are truthful in pointing out that there are negative elements in
Judaism, and that those negative elements are being used and abused in
contemporary Zionist and Israeli life by many religious Zionists.

Rabbi Meir Kahane and his followers, which included Baruch Goldstein and Yigal
Amir, is one notable example. There are many more.

Here is the list of works I mentioned. Which of them have you read?

If you want the short version, as I said before, simply consult the major
newsweeklies in the week or two following the Rabin assassination--the coverage
in U.S. News was especially good. You will have trouble dismissing Mortimer
Zuckerman (the owner of U.S. News) as an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew, I
think. The mainstream world media now readily acknowledge that Jewish
fundamentalism can be as bigoted and dangerous as Muslim or Christian
fundamentalism.

---Begin: Bibligraphy on Jewish Fundamentalism and Religious Zionism---

Breslauer, S. Daniel. Meir Kahane, Ideologue, Hero, Thinker.
Lewiston, NY: E. Mellen Press, 1986.

Brumberg, Abraham. Israel: Into the Abyss? Tikkun, May/June 1988,
v3 n3, pp. 51-55, 120-124.

Chomsky, Noam. The Fateful Triangle: the United States, Israel &
the Palestinians. Boston, MA: South End Press, 1983.

Efron, Noah J. Trembling With Fear: How Secular Israelis See the
Ultra-Orthodox, and Why. Tikkun, September/October 1991, v6 n5,
pp. 15-22, 88-90.

Friedman, Robert I. The False Prophet: Rabbi Meir Kahane: From
FBI Informant to Knesset Member. Brooklyn: Lawrence Hill Books,
1990.

Freidman, Robert I. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank
Settlement Movement. New York: Random House, 1992.

Friedman, Robert I. Making Way for the Messiah. The New York
Review of Books, v37 n15, October 11, 1990, pp. 41-7.

Friedman, Robert I. Terror on Sacred Ground; the Battle for the
Temple Mount. Mother Jones, v12 n6, August/September 1987, pp.
36-40, 42-44.

Halsell, Grace. Prophecy and Politics: The Secret Alliance
Between Israel and the U.S. Christian Right. Chicago, Illinois:
Lawrence Hill Books, 1986.

Harkabi, Yehoshafat. Israel's Fateful Hour. New York: Harper &
Row, 1988.

Hartman, David. Conflicting Visions: Spiritual Possibilities of
Modern Israel. New York: Schocken Books, 1990.

Heilman, Samuel C. Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox
Jewry. New York: Schocken Books, 1992.

Huppert, Uri. Back to the Ghetto: Zionism in Retreat. Buffalo,
New York: Prometheus Books, 1988.

Kahane, Meir. Israel: Revolution or Referendum? Secaucus, NJ:
Barricade Books, 1990.

Klein Halevi, Yossi. Memoirs of a Jewish Extremist: An American Story. Boston:
Little, Brown and Company, 1995.

Kotler, Yair. Heil Kahane. New York: Adama Books, 1986.

Landau, David. Piety and Power: The World of Jewish
Fundamentalism. New York: Hill and Wang, 1993.

Leibowitz, Yeshayahu. Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish
State. Edited by Eliezer Goldman. Cambridge, MA: Harvard
University Press, 1992.

Leshem, Moshe. Balaam's Curse: How Israel Lost Its Way, and How
It Can Find It Again. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1989.

Lustick, Ian S. For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism
in Israel. New York: Council on Foreign Relations, 1988.

Mergui, Raphael and Philippe Simonnot. Israel's Ayatollahs: Meir
Kahane and the Far Right in Israel. London; Atlantic Highlands,
NJ: Al-Saqi Books, 1987.

Neusner, Jacob. Can Judaism Survive the Twentieth Century?
Tikkun, v4 n4, July/August 1989, pp. 38-42.

Oz, Amos. In the Land of Israel. New York: Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich, 1983.

Oz, Amos. The Slopes of Lebanon. San Diego: Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich, 1989.

Patai, Raphael. The Messiah Texts. New York: Avon Books, 1979.

Rapoport, David C. Messianic Sanctions for Terror. Comparative
Politics, January 1988, pp. 195-213.

Ravitzky, Aviezer. Roots of Kahanism: Consciousness and Political
Reality. Jerusalem Quarterly, No. 39, 1986, pp. 90-108.

Reich, Tova. The Jewish War: A Novel. New York: Pantheon Books, 1995.

Rubinstein, Amnon. The Zionist Dream Revisited: from Herzl to
Gush Emunim and Back. New York: Schocken Books, 1984.

Ruether, Rosemary Radford and Herman J. Ruether. The Wrath of
Jonah: The Crisis of Religious Nationalism in the
Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989.

Seidler-Feller, Chaim. Not by Might and Not by Power: Kahanism
and Orthodoxy. Tikkun, v6 n1, January/February 1991, pp. 21-22.

Silberstein, Laurence J., editor. Jewish Fundamentalism in
Comparative Perspective: Religion, Ideology, and the Crisis of
Modernity. New York: New York University Press, 1993.

Sivan, Emmanuel and Menachem Friedman, eds. Religious Radicalism
and Politics in the Middle East. Albany, NY: State University of
New York Press, 1990.

Shahak, Israel. Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand
Years. London: Pluto Press, 1994.

Shipler, David K. Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised
Land. New York, N.Y.: Times Books, 1986.

Sicker, Martin. Judaism, Nationalism, and the Land of Israel.
Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1992.

Sprinzak, Ehud. The Ascendance of Israel's Radical Right. New
York: Oxford University Press, 1991.

Sprinzak, Ehud. Fundamentalism, Terrorism, and Democracy: The
Case of Gush Emunim. New Outlook, v31 n9, October 1988, pp. 8-14.

Viorst, Milton. Kach and Bull. Review of Robert Friedman's The
False Prophet: Rabbi Meir Kahane, From FBI Informant to Knesset
Member. Tikkun, v5 n5, September/October 1990, pp. 86-88.

Wieseltier, Leon. Kahane: The Making of a Jewish Monster. The New
Republic, v193 n20, November 11, 1985, pp. 15-21, 24-25.

---End---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:12 PDT 1996
Article: 73465 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Isaiah)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:21:12 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Try reading Isaiah.  Isaiah writes of a time of peace when "my people 
>Egypt, my strength Syria, and my inheritance Israel" will be at peace 
>withg one another and enrich one another.   

Ok, I read it (Isaiah). Please give me chapter and verse for the passage above.

You know, when you read the Bible in a certain mood, it is easy sometimes to
feel that you are having an unpleasant encounter with the most dangerous and
violent psychotic in world literature and world history: I am referring to
"God."

Isaiah, for instance, is brimming over with vengeance and violence.

This line really leaps out at one:

8 For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for
the controversy of Zion. 

"... recompences for the controversy of Zion." Hmmm....

If any of this mentality, personality and temperament manifested itself in
contemporary Mideast politics, the region would be heading for a Holocaust or
Armageddon.

---Begin---

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear,
and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 

2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all
their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the
slaughter. 

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their
carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled
together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth
off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree. 

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon
Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and]
with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the
LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls;
and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.


8 For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for
the controversy of Zion. 

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into
brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for
ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through
it for ever and ever. 

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the
raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion,
and the stones of emptiness. 

12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there,
and all her princes shall be nothing. 

13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the
fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for
owls. 

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the
island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest
there, and find for herself a place of rest. 

15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under
her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. 

16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail,
none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath
gathered them. 

17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by
line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they
dwell therein. 

---End---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:13 PDT 1996
Article: 73473 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:15:34 GMT
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>From  the most tribalist to the least tribalist (or from the least libertarian to
the most libertarian):

1. You divide the world into your tribe and everyone else.

2. You divide the world into a collection of tribes.

3. You divide the world into a collection of individuals.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:14 PDT 1996
Article: 73488 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:09:23 GMT
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Doug,

Beautiful message below! The conceptual scheme is elegant and perfect, and makes
my point better than I did.

We have to be thinking about how to get the world on the track towards level 7
in Hayek's scheme (level 3 in mine).

Wayne

jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
wrote:

>From article <31a4aaa2.91476798@news.cybercom.net>,
>by wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire):
>> From the most tribalist to the least tribalist (or from the least
>> libertarian to the most libertarian):
>> 
>> 1. You divide the world into your tribe and everyone else.
>> 2. You divide the world into a collection of tribes.
>> 3. You divide the world into a collection of individuals.
>
>Cute, but F. A. Von Hayek, a very interesting Postwar German, had a far
>more interesting take on this, in the same order:
>
>1. You think in terms of a conflict between yourself and everyone else.
>	Extreme individualism.
>
>2. You think in terms of a conflict between your family and everyone else.
>	The steriotype of the isolated hillbilly family.
>
>3. You think in terms of a conflict between your clan and everyone else.
>	Note that a clan is typically made up of a group of related families.
>	Clans typically encourage exogamy -- you must marry outside your
>	clan.  Interclan battles typically involve kidnapping women to
>	add to your household.
>	
>4. You think in terms of a conflict between your tribe and everyone else.
>	Tribalism.  Note that a tribe is traditionally made up of a group
>	of clans sharing a common culture.
>
>5. You think in terms of a conflict between your nation and everyone else.
>	Nationalism.  Note that a nation is historically defined in terms
>	of a common language; most nations are historically made up of
>	multiple tribes.
>
>6. You think in terms of a conflict between your race and everyone else.
>	Racism.  Note that a race is typically defined by a shared gene
>	pool, typically spanning a continent and many linguistic groups.
>
>7. Your world view doesn't depend on thinking in terms of a conflict
>	between human groups.  You recognize that others are fundamentally
>	similar to yourself despite differences in family, clan, tribe,
>	language, and continent of origin.
>
>Hayek came up with this in attempting to figure out what was wrong with
>National Socialism in particular, and with Nationalism in general.  I find
>many of his arguments against nationalism quite compelling, both in his
>explanation of why nationalism was seen as a liberating movement in the
>1800s, and in his explanation of why it has become the curse of the 1900's.
>
>					Doug Jones
>					jones@cs.uiowa.edu

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:15 PDT 1996
Article: 73491 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:24:37 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> Please quote the passages from me in the Jewish Bible in which Israel and "the
>> nations" enjoy mutual equality and respect. I searched in vain to find such a
>> passage, but I discovered many passages which describe a master-slave
>> relationship between Israel and the nations.
>
>Try reading Isaiah.  Isaiah writes of a time of peace when "my people 
>Egypt, my strength Syria, and my inheritance Israel" will be at peace 
>withg one another and enrich one another.   

Roger,

The fact that you can find only one positive reference to "the nations" proves
the point that the negative references vastly outnumber the neutral or positive
references.

It seems to be a fair statement that within the ideological system of the Jewish
Bible that the concept of "the nations" is overwhelmingly negative and
insulting. Therefore, any term that refers to this concept (including "goyim")
is also usually negative.

>Secondly,  the Bible, from a Jewish perspective, is a book directed at 
>Jews and for Jews.  It was never meant, from our perspective, for anyone 
>else.  It, is the history and the Constitution of the Jewish People.  
>Where in the history and Constitution of any nation does it outline that 
>nation's relationship to other nations ?

Roger, if many Israelis are going to use the Jewish Bible as a blueprint for
contemporary political policy in Israel, and if Israel is going to request
massive financial, political and military aid from Americans, then Americans are
going to concern themselves with the doctrine they are lavishly supporting.

In many cases, that doctrine seems to be advocating unenlightened and
discriminatory attitudes towards non-Jews. There is a problem.

This problem needs to be discussed and worked out if Israel is going to stay on
good terms with America and the Western democratic world. You can't expect
outsiders both to make major sacrifices for Israel AND to violate their most
treasured values at the same time. That simply is not going to work.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:15 PDT 1996
Article: 73522 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:51:26 GMT
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Martin Fox  wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>>From the most tribalist to the least tribalist (or from the least libertarian to
>>the most libertarian):
>>
>>1. You divide the world into your tribe and everyone else.
>>
>>2. You divide the world into a collection of tribes.
>>
>>3. You divide the world into a collection of individuals.
>>--
>>Wayne McGuire
>>wmcguire@cybercom.net
>>http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
>
>So?

I think most of the major political conflicts and struggles through the end of
the millennia and well into the beginning of the next century are going to
revolve around these distinctions.

With regard to these on-going discussions, I think Israel, if it wants to
survive, is going to have to figure out how to orient its society more in the
direction of 3 (libertarianism) than 1 (tribalism).

This would be a gargantuan project and exercise in ideological engineering, to
say the least. I guess I am offering a challenge. I am waiting for a Jewish
genius to appear who can reconcile Judaism and Jewish civilization with advanced
political thinking in America and the West, in a way that is acceptable and
attractive to a majority of Jews and Israelis.

I am not sure this can be done, but I am hoping (messianically? ).

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:16 PDT 1996
Article: 73553 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim -- This Time Without Ranting
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:15:13 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>> Let's recap how this discussion about the goyim began: Israel launched Operation
>> Grapes of Wrath, which terrorized hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians
>> and murdered dozens of Lebanese children. 
>
>Wayne, did Operation Grapes of Wrath begin in a vacuum?  Was it a direct 
>attack on the peaceful residents of a peaceful village, simply because 
>someone in Israel had designs on the property values in Qana?

Avi,

I appreciate that you are trying to get back on a civil track. It is impossible
to conduct a useful discussion while engaging in personal attacks.

I am going to focus on this point for now.

The problem is, I know too much about Israel's involvement in Lebanon.

In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon under the pretext that it needed to stop the
shelling from the PLO coming over the northern border.

That explanation was a lie, and everyone knew it was a lie. George Ball, for
instance, said on the op-ed page of The New York Times at the time what everyone
knew: the PLO had not shelled Israel in a year and had kept its end of an
agreement with Israel.

See the problem?

So what was Israel's real motive? Amos Perlmutter offered one of the better
explanations in Foreign Affairs: Likud, Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon entered
Lebanon in order to smash Palestinian nationalism and prepare the way for
building Biblical Greater Israel in the occupied territories and beyond.
Destroying the PLO in Lebanon would have made it much easier for Israel to
consolidate its control over the West Bank and Gaza. Perlmutter probably got it
right. Other experts have pointed out that Israel may also well covet water
supplies in Lebanon.

Before Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, based on a lie, and terrorized Lebanese
civilians, there was no Hezbollah. Israeli state terrorism created Hezbollah.
Likud's dream of building Biblical Greater Israel is responsible for the mess
that Israel now finds itself in in Lebanon.

Israel lied again when it attacked Lebanon just recently. Robert Fisk and other
writers have pointed out that Israel, and not Hezbollah, broke the truce in the
latest round of hostilities which led to Operation Grapes of Wrath. Operation
Grapes of Wrath eerily resembles the 1982 invasion in almost every regard. It
started with a lie and ended with an atrocity.

These are the facts, Avi.

Until Operation Grapes of Wrath, I thought I might never write another word on
Mideast politics. I was hoping the peace process was on track, and that Israel
would cease to be such a troublesome issue in American politics.

What pushed me over the edge was seeing footage of the ambulance attack which
killed four young girls, and then reading Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak justify that
attack with the implication that Israel would kill more children. That was it
for me. I couldn't hold my tongue.

And then there was the Qana Massacre. And then there were Israel's further lies
about its behavior at Qana. And then there was Peres blaming the "goyim" for
Israel's immorality and dishonesty.

And that's where we stand now. I have no apologies for anything I've said in
these newsgroups. And I firmly believe that the world, including America, is not
going to tolerate much more behavior of this kind from Israel without expressing
its displeasure in ways that will get Israel's full attention.

The bottom line is that you and Kahanists like Jody Eisenman may end up in the
same political camp, thanks to the blunders of the Israeli government. How sad.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:17 PDT 1996
Article: 73586 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>You're making an assumption about Nadler that may or may not be true.  
>You know less about Nadler, his opinions, his background, etc., than you 
>know about me or many of the people here, yet you choose to believe 
>Nadler.  Why ?  Because he says something you want to believe is true ?

No--because he managed to get his work published in "The New Republic," a
magazine which is quite protective of Jewish interests and which is somewhat
careful about not printing false information. For the time being, Nadler gets
the benefit of the doubt in my mind. He seems to know what he is talking about.

When I get a chance, I'll read the Tanya myself. I'm curious about what's in it.
In the meantime, if you can rebut Nadler with specific texts, go ahead and do
so.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:18 PDT 1996
Article: 73641 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Israel in Lebanon (Amos Oz)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 22:50:13 GMT
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.qml
.book excerpts

author=Amos Oz
title=The Slopes of Lebanon
city=San Diego
publisher=Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
year=1989

note=

Amos Oz in "The Slopes of Lebanon" (1989) accused Menachem Begin of invading
Lebanon in 1982 primarily in pursuit of a vision of Biblical Greater Israel.

excerpt=

(page=14)

     It was a war of deceit and brainwashing, the true goals of
     which had been concealed from the nation, from the soldiers,
     from the Knesset, and from most of the Cabinet.  Under the
     guise for peace for Galilee, Begin was going to crown the
     corrupt Gemayel family as rulers over all Lebanon, and turn
     Lebanon into a client state of Israel.  ("So what?  Why is
     it okay for Brezhnev?  Why is it okay for Assad?")  He was
     going to strike at the Syrian Army although it had not
     provoked Israel and had not caused a single Israeli casualty
     during the eight years since the signing of the
     Syrian-Israeli agreement at the end of the Yom Kippur War.
     He would do the Western world ("the ingrates") a favor by
     finishing off the PLO and thus, as these geniuses saw it,
     putting an end to the Palestinian problem.  He would win, as
     Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Eitan put it, "the war for
     the Land of Israel" (in other words, for the territories
     that we occupied during the Six-Day War), and perhaps clean
     up, once and for all, the mess in the Middle East.  The
     history writers were asked to take note that, unlike the
     Christian world, which had stood aside while Jews were being
     slaughtered, the Jews had not stood aside, but had gone to
     the rescue of their Christian brethren in Lebanon (to save
     them from the disaster they had brought down on themselves).
     The role of the sweet, innocent Little Red Riding Hood was
     thus given to the rotten Christian Phalangists, whose
     creation had been inspired by fascism.  Begin assumed the
     role of the noble woodsman who rescues Little Red Riding
     Hood from the jaws of the Islamic world, if not the role of
     the last Crusader.

     Indeed, if we are to judge by his speeches during that war,
     Menachem Begin went into Lebanon to fight a worldwide war
     against the enemies of Israel, from Amalek to Chmielnicki to
     Hitler: an awesome retribution for all that the Jews had
     suffered. Once and for all.

excerpt=

(page=29)

     Your real purpose is to reduce the Palestinians to a
     submissive group of serfs brought to its knees within the
     Greater Israel of your fantasies.

excerpt=

(page=30)

     The goal of this war is not "peace for Galilee."  You have
     misled the nation; just like those whom you and I have
     always despised, you have given the name "peace" to a
     calculated, instigated war.  The purpose of your war is to
     break the back of the Palestinian people, to install a
     "friendly" regime in Lebanon and to create--at the cost of
     lives of soldiers--conditions to make your dream of a
     Greater Israel come true.

excerpt=

(page=36)

     The war was born of a lie.  From the very start, it was a
     war initiated by Israel, a ready-made war waiting only for
     an opportunity or an excuse.  It wasn't intended to fend off
     a threat to Israel's very survival.  It was intended to rid
     us of a relentless irritant, even though that irritant in
     fact hadn't been felt for the last ten months.  There had
     been complete quiet along the Lebanese border.  Not a single
     casualty in ten months in the towns and villages of northern
     Israel.  It is spurious to claim that the war began on
     Sunday, June 6, 1982.  It began on Friday, June 4, 1982, at
     three o'clock in the afternoon, with a massive air raid on
     PLO targets in Beirut; the intention was to provoke the PLO
     into shelling villages in Galilee.  But this was already a
     rerun of a previous performance.  There had been an earlier
     attempt, in April, "to provoke a shelling barrage on
     Galilee"; however, at that time the PLO refused to play
     ball.  But this time their stupidity won out, and they did
     start a barrage.

     "Peace for Galilee" is a deceptive phrase.  War, even when
     it is fully justified, should not be called "peace."  Only
     in the world of brainwashing and tyranny described by George
     Orwell do such slogans as "War as peace," "Slavery is
     freedom," and "Ignorance is power" prevail.

     Begin's true goal was the classic Jabotinskyan one: to use
     force not in order to repel force, but primarily to
     reshuffle the world, to install a pliable regime in Lebanon,
     to conduct a "preventive" war against Syria, to wipe out the
     Palestinian problem, to perform a free service for what
     Begin likes to call "the free world."  In short, to change
     the face of the Middle East in one blow.  Begin knew very
     well that there was no national consensus on these goals, so
     he chose a spurious starting point from which to deceive not
     only the soldiers, not only the opposition, but even part of
     his own coalition.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:19 PDT 1996
Article: 73644 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Amos Oz)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:41:56 GMT
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Amos Oz remarks below that in invading Lebanon in 1982, Menachem Begin 
exploited the attitude among many Jews that "After what all those dirty goyim
have done to us, none of them is entitled to preach morality to us."

.qml
.book excerpt

author=Amos Oz
title=The Slopes of Lebanon
city=San Diego
publisher=Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
year=1989

excerpt=

(page=40)

     This argument, "Look who's talking," is a very effective
     weapon against both the opposition and what Begin calls
     alternately the "hypocritical world" and the "free world."
     Begin has struck a deeply sensitive chord in the Jewish
     psyche. In essence, he is winking at the persecuted and is
     offering them, in exchange for the "popular-priced" ticket
     of a war against Arafat, the "deluxe" spectacle of a
     worldwide war against Jew-haters through the ages. Hitler,
     according to Begin's implied message, has risen from the
     dead and is sitting in the bunker in Beirut. Whoever wants
     to kill Hitler no longer has to swallow his frustration.
     Hitler now "rides again," this time within reach, in a guest
     appearance right around the corner, and we can give him his
     just desserts at last. At the same time, we can give
     Sennacherib, Titus, Antiochus, Chmielnicki, Bevin, and
     Stalin, too, what's coming to them. All for a package price.

     There is one more message: Our sufferings have granted us
     immunity papers, as it were, a moral carte blanche. After
     what all those dirty goyim have done to us, none of them is
     entitled to preach morality to us. We, on the other hand,
     have carte blanche, because we were victims and have
     suffered so much. Once a victim, always a victim, and
     victimhood entitles its owners to a moral exemption. (There
     is no difference between this argument and the claim of
     Palestinian leaders when they justify blanket terror: "The
     Palestinian people have lost everything. Therefore, anything
     and everything is permissible to them.")

     This is a powerful, effective message. Opposition leaders
     have not managed to find an emotional and intellectual reply
     that the public will comprehend. Begin presents the war in
     Lebanon as an act of "settling accounts" with Jew-haters

(page=41)

     through the ages. And a large part of the public perceives
     the war in Lebanon as a "worldwide struggle" (and a neurotic
     one) against all our past and present foes.

     This and more: How morbid--and how effective--is the
     attitude that presents Israel as a ferocious Goliath ("We
     are the fourth superpower in the world; we have enormous
     power; we drove out the British; we did the Arabs in; we
     struck at Russia; and now we are saving the free world from
     the jaws of terror and from the clutches of its own
     weakness; and we're destroying Hitler once again"), and at
     the same time portrays Israel as a lamb surrounded by a pack
     of wolves ("We are wretched, isolated, besieged, and
     beleaguered; the whole world is against us; no one
     understands us and no one sympathizes with us"). This
     message gives its consumers the best of two worlds, the
     intoxication of power along with the pleasures of self-pity;
     to be both Samson the Mighty and Rachel mourning her
     children. Two for the price of one.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:20 PDT 1996
Article: 73646 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:52:37 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>cybercom.net>
>:Organization: INTAC Access Corportation - An Internet Service Provider
>Distribution: 
>
>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:
>
>: In the even larger scheme of things, why is it that Israel seems to be in such
>: relentless and ugly conflict with "the nations" (including the United Nations)?
>: What in the world is going on?
>
>: My guess is that more negative votes have been cast against Israel by "the
>: nations" (i.e., the United Nations) than against any other nation in the world.
>
>: Do you have any theories about this situation has developed?
>
>
>These are some excellent questions, Wayne. However, you of all people are 
>best qualified to answer them. Why is the UN obsessed with Israel? Why 
>are you obsessed with Israel? Because it is the Jewish state, and much of 
>the world, as shown thousands of times throughout history, is 
>anti-semitic. Just like you.

This isn't a very deep explanation. You state that the United Nations and "the
nations" (all the nations except Israel) are supposedly anti-Semitic, but you
don't explain WHY they are anti-Semitic, if one accepts the truthfulness of your
charge.

Here's a question: why is the Jewish Bible, as indicated in the passages below,
so obsessed with negatively portraying "the nations" and imagining a world in
which Israel rules over "the nations" economically, politically and militarily?

If there is an obsessive relationship between Israel and "the nations," how and
why did it get started? What is fueling it? Is there anything in the attitudes
in the quotes below that might shed some light on the problem?

Peres's remarks about the "goyim," which he used as a synonym for the United
Nations, suggests that very little has changed in Israel's relations with "the
nations" over thousands of years.

So what exactly is going on? Simply calling the entire world except Israel
"anti-Semitic" explains nothing. And, as we know, many Jews these days even call
the leaders of Israel's elected government anti-Semites and Jew haters,
including Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres.

>: ---BEGIN---
>
>: The Nations
>
>: Deuteronomy 14
>: 2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD
>: hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the
>: nations that [are] upon the earth. 
>
>: Deuteronomy 15
>: 6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
>: shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
>: shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 
>
>: Deuteronomy 26
>: 18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,
>: as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his
>: commandments; 
>: 19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in
>: praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy
>: people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. 
>
>: Deuteronomy 28
>: 1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
>: voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments
>: which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on
>: high above all nations of the earth...
>
>: Deuteronomy 28
>: 12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give
>: the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of
>: thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not
>: borrow. 
>
>: Psalms 47
>: 1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
>: triumph. 
>: 2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
>: the earth. 
>: 3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
>
>: Psalms 72
>: 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
>: the ends of the earth. 
>: 9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his
>: enemies shall lick the dust. 
>: 10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the
>: kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 
>: 11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve
>: him. 
>
>: Psalms 96
>: 1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
>: 2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from
>: day to day. 
>: 3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people. 
>: 4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be
>: feared above all gods. 
>: 5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the
>: heavens. 
>
>: Psalms 118
>: 10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I
>: destroy them. 
>: 11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the
>: name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
>: 12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of
>: thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
>
>: Isaiah 2
>: 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
>: mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
>: teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
>: shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
>: 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
>: people...
>
>: Isaiah 34
>: 1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the
>: earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that
>: come forth of it. 
>: 2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his]
>: fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath
>: delivered them to the slaughter. 
>: 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up
>: out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their
>: blood
>
>: ---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri May 24 23:47:21 PDT 1996
Article: 73662 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:31:50 GMT
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arens@isi.edu (Yigal Arens) wrote:

>Avi Jacobson  wrote:
>
>>  So let me ask you another question, 
>> since you seem to be the resident lexicologist:  How does the American
>> Heritage Dictionary define "cheap shot"?
>
>"A posting by Avi Jacobson".  Happy?

Ooo--slam dunk.

I hadn't stopped to consider the Yiddish input into the word. Very nicely done.

Avi could have spared himself all kinds of problems by simply admitting that 1)
he had serious doubts about Israel's handling of Operation Grapes of Wrath and
2) the word "goyim" is often used in a disparaging way. End of any controveries
on those matters--you slip through the mess free and clean. Instead we've had
another easily avoidable apocalyptic holy war. I suspect this is the essence of
how most Mideast politics works.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May 26 15:49:07 PDT 1996
Article: 49101 of alt.activism
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
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Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:15:57 GMT
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rhanson@ix.netcom.com (Hanson) wrote:

>The individual responsible for this posting, Wayne Mann, is a
>notorious Clinton-hater and Netcop wannabe....

Why are all of your posts filled with partisan bickering and empty of any
substantive content regarding the facts about Whitewater?

I came to this newsgroup hoping to ascertain a few facts about Whitewater after
hearing so many rumors in the media, and what I discovered here was a deluge of
abusive nonsense whose sole purpose seems to prevent any facts from reaching the
light of day.

It does appear that some people are trying to "jam" the channels here with junk
in an effort to force any rational and factual discussion about Whitewater off
the tracks.

One solution is to start using a news reader like Agent, which makes it easy to
filter out any users who are not making useful contributions to the discussion.
It's easy to conduct a rational discussion right over the heads of people who
are not especially bright or who are maliciously trying to disrupt all rational
discussion.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun May 26 16:06:40 PDT 1996
Article: 379382 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: NOTICE to NEWBIES and LURKERS
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:15:57 GMT
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rhanson@ix.netcom.com (Hanson) wrote:

>The individual responsible for this posting, Wayne Mann, is a
>notorious Clinton-hater and Netcop wannabe....

Why are all of your posts filled with partisan bickering and empty of any
substantive content regarding the facts about Whitewater?

I came to this newsgroup hoping to ascertain a few facts about Whitewater after
hearing so many rumors in the media, and what I discovered here was a deluge of
abusive nonsense whose sole purpose seems to prevent any facts from reaching the
light of day.

It does appear that some people are trying to "jam" the channels here with junk
in an effort to force any rational and factual discussion about Whitewater off
the tracks.

One solution is to start using a news reader like Agent, which makes it easy to
filter out any users who are not making useful contributions to the discussion.
It's easy to conduct a rational discussion right over the heads of people who
are not especially bright or who are maliciously trying to disrupt all rational
discussion.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:23 PDT 1996
Article: 53282 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Amos Oz)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:41:56 GMT
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Amos Oz remarks below that in invading Lebanon in 1982, Menachem Begin 
exploited the attitude among many Jews that "After what all those dirty goyim
have done to us, none of them is entitled to preach morality to us."

.qml
.book excerpt

author=Amos Oz
title=The Slopes of Lebanon
city=San Diego
publisher=Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
year=1989

excerpt=

(page=40)

     This argument, "Look who's talking," is a very effective
     weapon against both the opposition and what Begin calls
     alternately the "hypocritical world" and the "free world."
     Begin has struck a deeply sensitive chord in the Jewish
     psyche. In essence, he is winking at the persecuted and is
     offering them, in exchange for the "popular-priced" ticket
     of a war against Arafat, the "deluxe" spectacle of a
     worldwide war against Jew-haters through the ages. Hitler,
     according to Begin's implied message, has risen from the
     dead and is sitting in the bunker in Beirut. Whoever wants
     to kill Hitler no longer has to swallow his frustration.
     Hitler now "rides again," this time within reach, in a guest
     appearance right around the corner, and we can give him his
     just desserts at last. At the same time, we can give
     Sennacherib, Titus, Antiochus, Chmielnicki, Bevin, and
     Stalin, too, what's coming to them. All for a package price.

     There is one more message: Our sufferings have granted us
     immunity papers, as it were, a moral carte blanche. After
     what all those dirty goyim have done to us, none of them is
     entitled to preach morality to us. We, on the other hand,
     have carte blanche, because we were victims and have
     suffered so much. Once a victim, always a victim, and
     victimhood entitles its owners to a moral exemption. (There
     is no difference between this argument and the claim of
     Palestinian leaders when they justify blanket terror: "The
     Palestinian people have lost everything. Therefore, anything
     and everything is permissible to them.")

     This is a powerful, effective message. Opposition leaders
     have not managed to find an emotional and intellectual reply
     that the public will comprehend. Begin presents the war in
     Lebanon as an act of "settling accounts" with Jew-haters

(page=41)

     through the ages. And a large part of the public perceives
     the war in Lebanon as a "worldwide struggle" (and a neurotic
     one) against all our past and present foes.

     This and more: How morbid--and how effective--is the
     attitude that presents Israel as a ferocious Goliath ("We
     are the fourth superpower in the world; we have enormous
     power; we drove out the British; we did the Arabs in; we
     struck at Russia; and now we are saving the free world from
     the jaws of terror and from the clutches of its own
     weakness; and we're destroying Hitler once again"), and at
     the same time portrays Israel as a lamb surrounded by a pack
     of wolves ("We are wretched, isolated, besieged, and
     beleaguered; the whole world is against us; no one
     understands us and no one sympathizes with us"). This
     message gives its consumers the best of two worlds, the
     intoxication of power along with the pleasures of self-pity;
     to be both Samson the Mighty and Rachel mourning her
     children. Two for the price of one.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:26 PDT 1996
Article: 53284 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" ("The Nations")
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:52:37 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>cybercom.net>
>:Organization: INTAC Access Corportation - An Internet Service Provider
>Distribution: 
>
>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:
>
>: In the even larger scheme of things, why is it that Israel seems to be in such
>: relentless and ugly conflict with "the nations" (including the United Nations)?
>: What in the world is going on?
>
>: My guess is that more negative votes have been cast against Israel by "the
>: nations" (i.e., the United Nations) than against any other nation in the world.
>
>: Do you have any theories about this situation has developed?
>
>
>These are some excellent questions, Wayne. However, you of all people are 
>best qualified to answer them. Why is the UN obsessed with Israel? Why 
>are you obsessed with Israel? Because it is the Jewish state, and much of 
>the world, as shown thousands of times throughout history, is 
>anti-semitic. Just like you.

This isn't a very deep explanation. You state that the United Nations and "the
nations" (all the nations except Israel) are supposedly anti-Semitic, but you
don't explain WHY they are anti-Semitic, if one accepts the truthfulness of your
charge.

Here's a question: why is the Jewish Bible, as indicated in the passages below,
so obsessed with negatively portraying "the nations" and imagining a world in
which Israel rules over "the nations" economically, politically and militarily?

If there is an obsessive relationship between Israel and "the nations," how and
why did it get started? What is fueling it? Is there anything in the attitudes
in the quotes below that might shed some light on the problem?

Peres's remarks about the "goyim," which he used as a synonym for the United
Nations, suggests that very little has changed in Israel's relations with "the
nations" over thousands of years.

So what exactly is going on? Simply calling the entire world except Israel
"anti-Semitic" explains nothing. And, as we know, many Jews these days even call
the leaders of Israel's elected government anti-Semites and Jew haters,
including Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres.

>: ---BEGIN---
>
>: The Nations
>
>: Deuteronomy 14
>: 2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD
>: hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the
>: nations that [are] upon the earth. 
>
>: Deuteronomy 15
>: 6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
>: shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
>: shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 
>
>: Deuteronomy 26
>: 18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,
>: as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his
>: commandments; 
>: 19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in
>: praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy
>: people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. 
>
>: Deuteronomy 28
>: 1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
>: voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments
>: which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on
>: high above all nations of the earth...
>
>: Deuteronomy 28
>: 12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give
>: the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of
>: thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not
>: borrow. 
>
>: Psalms 47
>: 1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
>: triumph. 
>: 2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
>: the earth. 
>: 3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
>
>: Psalms 72
>: 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
>: the ends of the earth. 
>: 9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his
>: enemies shall lick the dust. 
>: 10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the
>: kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 
>: 11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve
>: him. 
>
>: Psalms 96
>: 1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
>: 2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from
>: day to day. 
>: 3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people. 
>: 4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be
>: feared above all gods. 
>: 5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the
>: heavens. 
>
>: Psalms 118
>: 10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I
>: destroy them. 
>: 11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the
>: name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
>: 12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of
>: thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
>
>: Isaiah 2
>: 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
>: mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
>: teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
>: shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
>: 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
>: people...
>
>: Isaiah 34
>: 1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the
>: earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that
>: come forth of it. 
>: 2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his]
>: fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath
>: delivered them to the slaughter. 
>: 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up
>: out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their
>: blood
>
>: ---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:27 PDT 1996
Article: 53297 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:31:50 GMT
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arens@isi.edu (Yigal Arens) wrote:

>Avi Jacobson  wrote:
>
>>  So let me ask you another question, 
>> since you seem to be the resident lexicologist:  How does the American
>> Heritage Dictionary define "cheap shot"?
>
>"A posting by Avi Jacobson".  Happy?

Ooo--slam dunk.

I hadn't stopped to consider the Yiddish input into the word. Very nicely done.

Avi could have spared himself all kinds of problems by simply admitting that 1)
he had serious doubts about Israel's handling of Operation Grapes of Wrath and
2) the word "goyim" is often used in a disparaging way. End of any controveries
on those matters--you slip through the mess free and clean. Instead we've had
another easily avoidable apocalyptic holy war. I suspect this is the essence of
how most Mideast politics works.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:29 PDT 1996
Article: 53330 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Isaiah)
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:57:27 GMT
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bshane@raleigh.ibm.com (Bryan) wrote:

>Now if you are going to argue that only a psychotic god would
>permit the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel or the Holocaust, then
>I will cede you the point.

When I was commenting that "God" in the Jewish Bible frequently sounds like the
most dangerous and violent psychotic in world history, I had in mind the
bloodthirstiness of "God" towards the entire planet, including Israel and all
the non-Jewish nations--"the nations." "God's" hatred in the Jewish Bible
towards Israel and Jews often even seems to exceed that towards "the nations."
See Leviticus, for instance.

> However, I do not agree with it and tend to
>believe that the psychosis is in the observer, more than the creator.
>Nevertheless, it follows that the only way G-d can be considered
>"sane" in all of this would be if humanity were to be insane.
>I put it to you, which is more likely the sane one in all this,
>humanity or G-d?

One can't entirely rule out that the authors of these bloodthirsty passages were
themselves insane, and were speaking not for God but for their collective tribal
psychosis.

Do you really feel that God is full of hatred, violence and vengeance towards
the entire world, and takes pleasure in making human beings suffer? One runs
into human beings with these attitudes--including many messianic tribalists--but
God?

If you wanted to find a document to destroy the world by, this one might do
quite nicely. (By this document, I mean the entire Bible: elements of the
Christian Bible, especially the Revelation of St. John, match the Jewish Bible
for apocalyptic bloodthirstiness.)

The daring freethinkers among us  will leave open the door to speculation
about whether these authors were speaking for God or for their deranged human
selves.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:30 PDT 1996
Article: 53342 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 12:20:47 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>- "Goy" is no more _inherently_ derogatory than any neutral word in any
>  lanuage which is used to denote a member of another national, ethnic,
>  or religious group.
>
>- "Goy" can be, and has been, _used_ in a derogatory sense.  But this is
>  not unique to "goy", nor to Hebrew, nor to Yiddish, nor to Israelis,
>  nor to Jews.
>
>- Because the use of an inherently neutral term in a derogatory context
>  is a universal phenomenon and not uniquely Jewish, it is neither
>  fair nor legitimate to cite that use as indicative of some uniquely
>  Jewish fault.
>
>- It is difficult for me to see how Messrs. McGuire and Arens --
>  particularly Mr. Arens, whose background in Hebrew and Israeli culture
>  is common knowledge -- could disagree with any of the three previous
>  points.  Yet they ignore and contradict them in their postings, which
>  -- from where I sit -- looks deliberately misleading and manipulative.
>
>I believe I have now stated my position in a calm, non-abusive, and
>rational way, and without any hint of personal abuse.  I regret that I 
>was too angry to do this in my previous posting.

Avi,

Two points:

1. Over the course of my life I have heard the words "goy" and "goyim" used many
thousands of times with an obviously derogatory intention and inflection. I have
almost never heard the word used in a neutral fashion in normal speech and
writing. Any serious student of language knows that you determine the meaning of
words by studying contemporary usage.

I am reporting to you on my honest experience and as someone who reads widely
and has a fairly solid grasp of contemporary American culture and the nuances of
contemporary American English.

Howard Stern is an example: for him a "goy" is bestial, stupid, drunken and
criminal. He has often used the word "hillbilly" as a synonym for "goy." He's
obviously talking about (and slurring) non-Jews.

2. I did a search on "the nations" in the Jewish Bible, and found that the
references were overwhelmingly condescending, insulting, hostile and negative.
Apparently being an "unchosen people" doesn't carry much status within the
ideological system of the Jewish Bible. I have repeatedly asked you and others
here to explain how any term which refers to "the nations" could be anything but
negative in most cases. I have received not a single rational response on the
point--just a mountain of defensive verbal abuse which seems to indicate a
guilty conscience and great anxiety about dealing with the actual text in the
Jewish Bible.

Within the ideological system of the Jewish Bible, "the chosen people" and "the
nations" are binary opposites. Many references in this text suggest or state
clearly that Israel has a divine right and obligation to rule over all the other
nations, in every respect--including politically, militarily and economically.

In the Christian Bible we see matters reversed somewhat: the so-called chosen
people--Israel, the Jews--are singled out for contempt and hatred.

It would appear that the two halves of the Bible are engaged in a kind of
spitting contest, one which some people might want to avoid altogether.

Here's a question for you: what does "goyische kopf" mean?

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:31 PDT 1996
Article: 53450 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:34:50 GMT
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rimmer@connect.ab.ca wrote:

>Facts?
>
>Read the recent post by (?) (re: the meaning of "goyim") who outlined how many 
>of Mr. McGuire's "facts" were indeed facts.
>
>As with most anti-semites (and I know many of you here will argue with my use 
>of the term, but the meaning of the term in North America, just like the 
>meaning of the term "goyim" in Hebrew is clearly and simply "nations"), Mr. 
>McGuire uses whatever distortions, misapplications, misunderstandings, 
>reflections of reality, and other people's prejudices to damn an entire group.

Really?

What I did was perform a full-text search in the Jewish Bible for "nations" and
discovered that the vast majority of occurrences were negative and insulting
references to non-Jewish nations. Feel free to conduct your own search at:

     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html

The Jewish Bible frequently portrays Israel as dominating or subjugating the
goyim, politically, economically and militarily.

I also pointed out correctly that it is obvious in context that Shimon Peres's
remark about the goyim (the United Nations, the entire world except Israel) was
negative. (Peres was attacking the U.N. for having the audacity to try to
ascertain the facts regarding Israel's massacre of civilians at Qana.)

Others here, speaking honestly from their personal experience, have also pointed
out that the overwhelming usage of "goyim" in contemporary American culture is
negative and bigoted.

Why don't you try rebutting any one or all three of these points rationally and
factually instead of hiding behind a wall of vague verbal abuse and smears.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:32 PDT 1996
Article: 53459 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> Two points:
>> 
>> 1. Over the course of my life I have heard the words "goy" and "goyim" used many
>> thousands of times with an obviously derogatory intention and inflection. I have
>> almost never heard the word used in a neutral fashion in normal speech and
>> writing. Any serious student of language knows that you determine the meaning of
>> words by studying contemporary usage.
>
>Your comment above illustrates your lack of familiarity with Judaism, 
>Jews, or Jewish literature.   I use the term "goy" every day when I 
>recite the prayers, and on every holiday, in the same fashion.  In 
>almost all those cases, the term refers to Jews.

I repeat: if one searches on "nations" or "the nations" in the Jewish Bible, one
finds that the references are overwhelmingly negative and that they almost
always refer to all the nations except the chosen nation, Israel.

This whole discussion started when Shimon Peres spoke contempuously about the
goyim, the nations, the United Nations. Clearly in context Peres was speaking
about all the nations except Israel. Peres was not calling Israel a "goy." Quite
the contrary.

>> Howard Stern is an example: for him a "goy" is bestial, stupid, drunken and
>> criminal. He has often used the word "hillbilly" as a synonym for "goy." He's
>> obviously talking about (and slurring) non-Jews.
>
>A good example of what I've said.  Marginalized assimilated 
>Jews.

Well, I hardly see how you can rule out this sort of usage when trying to
understand how most Americans acquire their sense of the meaning of the word.
This is the usage that is dominant by far in contemporary American culture.
>From  where do you think that Stern and others like him learned to speak about
non-Jews in this way?

>The vast majority of uses of "goy" in the Bible refer to Jews, not 
>anyone else, even when being used in an insulting way as admonition.  
>When it refers to "other nations" it specifies as such, and yes, many of 
>those are insulting because they are in context of nations who tried to 
>defeat, assimilate, or otherwise destroy the Jews.

No, that doesn't really seem to be the case. The Jewish Bible asserts a
metaphysical and theological world model in which Israel by divine right and
imperative rules over all the other nations. This is a pro-active, not a
reactive, division of the world.

Example:

Deuteronomy 15:6
For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

>The propblem here, Wayne, is that you are judging vased on a standard 
>that you want applied only to Jews.

No, that's not it. What I'm trying to figure out is why Israel seems to be in
such greater conflict with the entire world and "the nations" and the United
Nations than any other nation on earth. Perhaps the reason is that few other
nations in the world have constructed a religious mythology around themselves in
which this kind of global struggle is central to their self-identity.

If Israel's problems didn't impact so heavily on Americans, Americans would not
very much concern themselves with Israel's odd ideas in this regard.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:33 PDT 1996
Article: 53460 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Amos Oz)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:06:28 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> Amos Oz remarks below that in invading Lebanon in 1982, Menachem Begin
>> exploited the attitude among many Jews that "After what all those dirty goyim
>> have done to us, none of them is entitled to preach morality to us."
> 
>The question was, Wayne, was Begin wrong to have that attitude ?  Given 
>his experience, his response and expectations made sense.

The main point is that it was quite clear that when Begin was speaking about
"goyim" he was spraying bile at all non-Jews. He was a religious, unassimilated
Jew. His usage of "goyim" differed little from Howard Stern's.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:34 PDT 1996
Article: 53502 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: McGuire "Checks Out" Shahak (part 3)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:18:52 GMT
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backon@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

>Israel Shahak is a retired professor of chemistry at Hebrew Univeristy
>(whom I happen to meet at least once every 2 weeks religiously at the
>Rechavia post office :-). Shahak is a Holocaust survivor who is very
>angry at God and who detests the Orthodox community. That, in a nutshell,
>explains why he acts the way he does.
>
>Since my area of medicine isn't in psychiatry, I won't delve into why
>Shahak is projecting on Israel and Judaism what happened to him in WWII.

Josh,

I know you too well now to take your peccadilloes in anything but good humor, so
I will simply observe that you have presented one point of view.

Another point of view is that Israel Shahak is a very bright, courgaeous and
decent man with strong libertarian leanings philosophically who has been
concerned about the problematic role of Jewish fundamentalism in Israeli
political life.

His concerns in this regard have been amply vindicated by recent events in
Israel, and in some respects I suppose many people would call him a prophet.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:35 PDT 1996
Article: 53535 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Jewish Hate in Hebron
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:03:07 GMT
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Question: What is the interest of America and the average American in supporting
Jewish settlers in Hebron who hold racist views?

.qml
.newspaper article excerpt

author=Ethan Bronner
title=Israel Vote Won't Solve Hebron's Riddle
newspaper=The Boston Globe
date=May 26, 1996

excerpt=

Since the settlers in Hebron are among the most fervent of Jewish nationalists,
believing they are part of a celestial scheme for Jewish reconquest of the
Promised Land, the conflict here seems insoluble. 

Posters in Arabic, apparently written by settlers, mar the front of the Muslim
religious authority building with the words: ``Hebron is our city and the Arabs
are our dogs.''

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:35 PDT 1996
Article: 53551 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: McGuire "Checks Out" Shahak (part 3)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:58:33 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Israel Shahak is a totally secular, anti-religious, left-leaning....

Of course, that describes the majority of the founders of Israel.

Shahak is more critical of doctrinaire leftism than your average Israeli
leftist, however.

>So, the question is this, Wayne, if you're so interested in Jewish 
>thought, perhaps you should look at the thought and concerns of those 
>who identify themselves as Jewish for more than the profit they make by 
>attacking Jews.

I wasn't aware that Shahak was profiting from his writings. How much do you
imagine he has made?

I've read the writings of hundreds of prominent Jewish writers, religious and
secular. I hardly rely on Shahak as my chief authority on anything. But he's
been quite astute on recognizing the dangers of religious Zionism and Jewish
fundamentalism in Israeli political life before the world in general caught on.

After Kahane, Goldstein and Amir, his stock has definitely gone up. It will
probably continue to rise.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:37 PDT 1996
Article: 53553 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:03:35 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Try leaving Jews alone and in peace -- and then see what they do, and 
>then, be my guest, and judge their actions.

Like the Qana Massacre? The continued violations of human rights in the occupied
territories? How much more of that kind of activity do Americans want to be
involved in?

>                                                      Are you saying that Jews 
>should just stay quiet when they are being attacked, Wayne ?

Not at all: speak right up. And I imagine non-Jews will speak right up when they
feel that Jews are attempting to involve them in questionable activities in the
name of Jewish nationalism. It's a nice, reciprocal relationship.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:37 PDT 1996
Article: 53554 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim -- This Time Without Ranting
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:15:44 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: The bottom line is that you and Kahanists like Jody Eisenman may end up in the
>: same political camp, thanks to the blunders of the Israeli government. How sad.
>
>Yes, everyone who opposes you is a Kahanist. Since you oppose virtually 
>all Jews, then virtually all of us must be right wing, fanatical, 
>orthodox, Kahanists. ROTFL.

Oh, hardly. I'm very careful about using the word "Kahanist" and words in
general.

You are a self-declared Kahanist, and a supporter of the segregation of Jews and
Arabs in the Middle East. There is absolutely no difference between you and the
typical Ku Klux Klan member or neo-Nazi in the U.S. Your views place you on the
extreme, racist right, in the hate group spectrum along with dozens of other
Kahanists on the Usenet.

In your recent messages you haven't been able to express one coherent, rational
or substantive thought. You're just angry and ranting.

It seems to make you furious that non-Jews are paying close attention to Israeli
politics. You'd better get use to it. For instance, if you have been paying
attention, and know what information sources to monitor (which isn't likely,
given the crudity of your posts), you will have noticed that the U.S., England,
Germany and France have also expressed themselves very strongly in recent days
about the upcoming elections in Israel. None of these countries is going to be
very patient with Likud if it comes back into power.

Israel is totally dependent on Western aid and support. Since you still haven't
grasped this point after being reminded of it repeatedly, it's not likely that
you ever will. The world is going to seem like a mystifiying and annoying place
to you, where other parties are as concerned about their interests as you are
about yours. Spooky....
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:38 PDT 1996
Article: 53570 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:47:48 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>In a world where every people, every nation, teaches its own history 
>from its own perspective, not just the Jews,  why is it that in your 
>opinion, only Jews should do differently ?

Jews have shown no hesitation or shyness about looking carefully, often with a
highly critical eye, into the core documents of Christianity, Islam, Arab
nationalism and every other religion and nationalist movement under the sun.
Some major Jewish organizations have even called for significant changes to
these documents.

But some Jews become edgy and angry when non-Jews make the same inquiries into
the core documents of Jewish nationalism.

Why the double standards?

Since Jewish nationalism now plays such a central role in American foreign
policy and domestic politics--all this as a result of the lobbying and pressure
of Jewish nationalists--why in the world shouldn't Americans try to understand
what Jewish nationalism is all about?

I think what's causing many Americans to become skeptical about the entire
Zionist enterprise is the vision of many Jewish nationalists doing the
following:

1. Poking around aggressively in the texts of other religions and national
movements and issuing strong critical judgements.

2. Verbally attacking any outsider who looks into the texts of Jewish
nationalism.

3. Demanding endless financial, political and military aid from these same
outsiders--goyim.

Can you imagine a more effective formula for stirring up hostility and
alienating everyone?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:40 PDT 1996
Article: 53671 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Shahak, Religious Zionism and Jewish Fundamentalism
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:32:12 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>No, I was addressing a single point.  That is, what is the veracity of
>Israel Shahak as a source for the claims that these "negative elements
>in Judaism" even exist?

Oh, please: these negative elements exist in abundance. I provided you with a
long list of reputable books by contemporary authors which explore this subject.
Apparently you aren't familiar with any of them.

>What I did was to take a couple of examples,
>almost at random, and showed that when Shahak tries to "demonstrate" that
>there is some fundamentally "negative" aspect of Judaism, he seems to
>either have misunderstood his own sources or is lying about them outright.

You are misrepresenting or "lying about" (to use your inflammatory language)
Shahak's approach. You discovered three relatively trivial points on which there
is disagreement within Judaism. You hardly proved that the negative elements
Shahak mentioned don't exist. And you haven't even begun to tackle the many
thousands of points that Shahak makes in his book and in his other writings that
are obviously true.

Why don't you carefully demonstrate how many facts Shahak got wrong in the
following essay:

---BEGIN---

From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Goyim and Israeli Politics
Message-ID: <12993@venera.isi.edu>
Date: 20 Apr 90 03:45:50 GMT
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Lines: 189

Ha'aretz, April  5, 1990.

THE STATUS OF THE GOY IN HALACHA AND IN ISRAELI POLITICS

By Israel Shahak (an opinion piece in the paper's "Open Stage"
column)

The primary reason for the numerous surprises encountered not
only by politicians but also by the majority of secular Israelis,
when the true positions of Ultra Orthodox [Haredi] or plain
Orthodox [Dati] Rabbis on various political issues become known,
is that the secular and religious communities actually speak two
different languages. In these two languages, the meaning of most
concepts, from the simplest ones to the fundamental concepts
influencing politics, differ. Unlike under similar circumstances
in other cultures, there does not exist a "dictionary" that can
be used to translate Halacha terminology into the language of the
secular public. In principle, the responsibility for this
situation lies with what is called -- erroneously, in my opinion
-- "Judaic Studies". This field deals primarily with "ideological
propaganda". It does not provide (with the exception of a few
essays written recently on specific problems) the true history of
Halacha Judaism, from which some of us have managed to free
ourselves, nor does it explain its basic concepts. The situation
is further complicated by the fact that Halacha Judaism was the
Judaism of my parents and of many generations that preceded them.
One of the reasons behind the organized confusion of "Judaic
Studies" is the ideological desire to refrain from shocking the
public and deepening the gap between the generations, a
consequence of the younger generation discovering the truth. The
truth not only about the leaders of today's Ultra Orthodox, but --
what is more important -- about its parents and forefathers.

The Great Enemy

It is not only common sense, history, and what is taking place
now in Eastern Europe, that prove that concealing basic facts is
the greatest enemy of every regime; Present political reality in
Israel as well demands that the truth concerning Jewish Halachic
principles be explained to the secular Israeli public in a
language that it can understand.

In Halachic terminology the word "soul" [nefesh] always means
"Jew" or "Jew with some special characteristics". When Halacha
refers to non-Jews, that is explicitly noted and is expressed by
the use of words like "Goy", or "Nations of the World" [umot
ha'olam]. Thus, the use of the word "soul" in the Halachic term
"preservation of a soul" [piku'ach nefesh], indicates that it
speaks of Jews only (and not even of Druze or other non-Jews who
serve in the IDF, say). This can be demonstrated with examining
other uses of the word "soul". In Halacha there exists the
concept of "soul-food" [ochel-nefesh], which refers to food in
preparation of which a Jew is permitted to work, e.g., by
cooking, on a holiday.

A well known and explicit Halachic ruling, observed to this very
day, asserts that a Jew may not work in preparation of such
"soul-food" if it is meant for non-Jews or dogs (thus precisely
states the Talmud), despite the use of the term "soul" to
describe the food. Needless to say, in the context of the
diaspora various allowances were made for situations in which it
was nevertheless permitted to feed a goy with food prepared on a
holiday only for Jews. For example, if the goy would be offended
and is capable of causing harm. But the principle that the Jew
cooking on a holiday not increase the amount for goyim or for
dogs has been strictly kept by our forefathers and by religious
Jews to this very day.

Even the term "preservation of a soul" [piku'ach nefesh,
eliminating the threat of death] itself, as everyone with even
minimal familiarity with Talmudic literature is well aware, does
not apply to a goy. Not only so, but in principle a Jew,
including a Jewish doctor, is forbidden to save the life of a goy
for reasons that we, but not the Orthodox, would call
"humanitarian". A Jew is strictly forbidden to save a goy if this
involves desecration of the Sabbath ["lechalel alav et
hashabat"]. In a case of "preservation of a soul" of a Jew,
desecration of the Sabbath is a duty and a commandment.

All these rulings refer, of course, to every goy, of every age.
In the case of "preservation of a soul" -- which applies only of
the "soul" of a Jew -- there are records of lengthy Halachic
arguments, which continue to this day, particularly on the
question of what influence should be given to the fear of the
goyim, or of their hatred, in deciding whether a Jewish doctor
should save a goy. For example, there are discussions of what the
goyim might do if they find out that Jewish doctors are unwilling
to treat them, or to desecrate the Sabbath in the course of the
treatment.

In seventeenth century Poland, one of the greatest rabbis ruled
that a Jewish doctor is permitted to desecrate the Sabbath for a
goy who is the mayor, but not for a goy with no influence. A few
years ago, in the state of Israel itself, the Ultra Orthodox
experts on such matters ruled that a Jewish doctor who fears that
his license might be revoked by state authorities if he refuses
to desecrate the Sabbath to treat a goy, is permitted to do so,
provided that during the treatment his thoughts are about his
license and not the treatment itself.

Exemplified by these two cases is the attitude that dominates in
Jewish Halacha towards all goyim in nearly all circumstances. It
is expressed in the most minor matters, such as a strict
prohibition against giving a gift to a goy, or even speaking well
of him. Here too, exceptions were invented over the years for
cases where there is reason to fear the goyim or a desire to
profit from them. It is obvious, even with the various
exceptions, that the attitude towards non-Jews found in these
rulings in totally inhuman. It should be noted that the number of
such rulings is very large and that all Orthodox Jews study them.
This surely impacts them even if they do not have the opportunity
to follow the law -- no less than the mere existence of
anti-Semitic laws would influence a society.

Fraud

Considering all this, the heaps of praise bestowed on the
Halachic rulings of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who stated that
withdrawal from the occupied territories might be permitted due
to the principle of "preservation of the soul", is a prime
example of fraud being perpetrated on the public. This is not to
criticize Rabbi Yosef himself -- He fully explained the true
reasoning behind his rulings more than once, and in perfect
detail. According to Rabbi Yosef (in "Yated Ne'eman", September
18, 1989), we may indeed find ourselves in a position where we
will have to return territories in order to prevent an imminent
war that will cause the death of Jews. And "preservation of the
soul", as he accurately remarks there, applies to the case of a
Jew who is ailing at that very moment -- not one who might become
ill in the future. And it all has to do with the fact that we are
weak.

How does Rabbi Yosef know, and how does he demonstrate to his
readers, that we are weak? By the fact that we are not capable of
expelling all goyim, especially all Christians, from the Land of
Israel, as we would have been obliged to do if we were not weak!

Rabbi Yosef continues and provides an additional argument: we
know we are weak because we have been unable to halt the intifada
and there is fear for the life of Jews in the occupied
territories. We therefore cannot state that in the territories we
"act as in our own home" [osim bahem ke'adam ha'oseh betoch
shelo]. If we could act so, that would prove that we were strong,
and we would not have to withdraw from the territories. Using
similar reasoning in his most recent TV appearance, Rabbi Yosef
raises the danger of Arab chemical weapons and the strength of
Arab armies as further arguments for withdrawal from the
territories. Similarly, Rabbi Shach claimed in the same issue of
"Yated Ne'eman" that we are weak because we rely on US aid, and
for that reason we must negotiate withdrawal from the
territories.

No right of the goyim who reside in these territories to
participate in the decisions concerning their future -- a right
that was acknowledged by Begin, and at least formally by Shamir
and Sharon -- was ever mentioned by these rabbis, nor will it
ever be. Because in no case does the goy have inherent rights in
the Halacha when confronting a Jew. He obtains rights only by his
power, particularly his threats. The greater the threat of the
goy to the lives of Jews, the more recognition of his rights by
the Halacha.

If our situation grows worse and the threat of war is imminent,
only then will the Ultra Orthodox agree to withdraw from the
territories. If whoever becomes Prime Minister of Israel with the
blessing of the Ultra Orthodox wishes to return any territory in
exchange for peace with Hussein, he will have to make certain
that Israel is as weak as possible. If he assures Israel's
strength, the Ultra Orthodox will prevent the return of the
territories to any goy. They will even begin to demand a transfer
of the non-Jewish population, at least that of Christians.

If the Arabs will not have chemical weapons, if their armies
weaken and the intifada ends -- not only will it be Halachically
forbidden to withdraw, it may be possible to begin expelling the
goyim, particularly the Christians, whose churches must also be
destroyed. If a miracle occurs and all the Palestinians and the
Arab countries accept Mubarak Awad's non-violent approach, and if
our power in the US grows a thousandfold -- it will be permitted
according to Halacha to expel the goyim not only from the Land of
Israel, but from "any place we conquer", according to Rabbi
Yosef.

These views are also accepted by those who are called --
erroneously, in my opinion -- "the religious peace movement",
i.e., the groups "Oz Veshalom" and "Netivot Shalom". These
organizations disseminate in the religious community an earlier
Halachic ruling by Rabbi Yosef, which also discusses the
expulsion of the Christians and the destruction of their churches
when we gain sufficient strength, as proof that we currently lack
such strength.

Our Ultra Orthodox rabbis must be treated as we would expect
others to treat anti-Semites of this kind, and we must finally
understand: No peace negotiations and no other positive or
humanistic process can be built upon an alliance with the
Orthodox [dati] forces in general and with the Ultra Orthodox
[haredi] in particular. --

Yigal Arens
USC/ISI
arens@isi.edu

---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:41 PDT 1996
Article: 53685 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: The History of Aaron Gross in Cyberspace
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:11:34 GMT
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aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross) wrote:

(Long diatribe deleted:)

If anyone is curious about the facts concerning Aaron Gross, email me and I will
give you the scoop. I am not going to subject the public discussion space to a
personal feud. If Gross contributes here for more than a week or two, you will
quickly have him in focus.

Gross's basic method is to leave thousands of messages pushing his religious
Zionist views, and then to complain bitterly when anyone disagrees with him.

Gross is quite unique (and infantile by the standards of the Internet), because
rarely on the Usenet does one find someone enter controversial forums with
controversial views and then complain loudly when the views of others vary.
What people of even low to moderate intelligence do is engage in debate about
their views. But not Gross: he can go on for years harping on the extraordinary
fact that someone has actually dared to disagree with him! It's a really
remarkable and funny act: check it out.

Gross's inability to deal with opposing views is so strong that has he even
attempted to censor those who disagree with him on other networks.

The whole sorry history has been archived, including Gross's propensity to
deliberately alter and misrepresent documents to try to deal with the fact that
he can't present and defend his views in a rational and fair way.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:42 PDT 1996
Article: 53686 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>What Wayne, and incidentally most Americans and Europeans seem to ignore 
>is the fact that their own histories are replete with examples of 
>nationalism, chauvinism, and tribalism.   If they were not, then why 
>don't they open their borders and erase them from the map ?

Why do you say this? I am quite aware of all these facts. What makes you think
otherwise?

Aaron Gross, by the way, has often made the argument that since America
committed genocide against the American Indians, Israel has a right to commit
genocide against the Palestinians.

The genocide of the American Indians is one of the most shameful acts in
European and American history. Americans have no desire to commit such an act
again, or to support any nation which would commit such an act.

Gross's apologetics for Israel also provide a justification for the Holocaust:
if the Americans can destroy the American Indians, and if the Israelis can
destroy the Palestinians, why isn't any act of genocide justifiable? All's fair
in nation-building and nation-defense.

You will quickly learn that Aaron Gross is a disaster for Israeli public
relations: he makes arguments that even most Kahanists are clever enough to
avoid from a public image standpoint. Of all the folks I have debated on these
issues, he is by far the weakest and the one most likely to put his foot in his
mouth time after time.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:43 PDT 1996
Article: 53689 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:36:33 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>
>>It seems to be a fair statement that
> within the ideological system of the Jewish
>>Bible that the concept of "the nations" is overwhelmingly negative and
>>insulting. Therefore, any term that refers to this concept (including "goyim")
>>is also usually negative.
>
>Notice that Wayne changed his tune a bit ( ..."including "goyim"").
>He first asserted that the term goyim was intrinsically derogoatroy.
>After quoting many verses (where the term goyim didn't even appear)
>and also noting that Israel is regularly, in liturgical hebrew, referred
>to as a goy he has modified to argument to simply "the bible
>bashes other nations...whether using the word goyim or not)"

Any term, including "goyim," which mentions the concept of "the nations" appears
to be predominantly negative within the ideological system of the Jewish Bible.

>However, this "ideological system" is a total fantasy in the mind of
>Wayne MacGuire.  He never tells us what this "system" is (just asserts
>it is one of indiscrimant bigotry) nor has he even done this biblical
>survey to show that the nations are usually refereed to disparigningly.

Really? I have posted a collection of representative passages here now a number
of times, and challenged you and others to produce passages which depict "the
nations" in a positive light.

Obviously none of you can meet the challenge. You've lost the argument.

---Begin: Passages from the Bible About the "The Nations"---

Deuteronomy 14
2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD
hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the
nations that [are] upon the earth. 

Deuteronomy 15
6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

Deuteronomy 26
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,
as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his
commandments; 
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in
praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy
people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. 

Deuteronomy 28
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments
which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on
high above all nations of the earth...

Deuteronomy 28
12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give
the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of
thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not
borrow. 

Psalms 47
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
triumph. 
2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
the earth. 
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

Psalms 72
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
the ends of the earth. 
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his
enemies shall lick the dust. 
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the
kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve
him. 

Psalms 96
1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from
day to day. 
3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people. 
4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be
feared above all gods. 
5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the
heavens. 

Psalms 118
10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I
destroy them. 
11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the
name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of
thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 

Isaiah 2
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
people...

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the
earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that
come forth of it. 
2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his]
fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath
delivered them to the slaughter. 
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up
out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their
blood

---End---


--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:45 PDT 1996
Article: 53690 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:40:45 GMT
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Avi,

There comes a point in every debate where the parties sometimes have to agree to
disagree in a friendly way. Perhaps we have reached that point.

As I survey all the evidence concerning the term "goyim," and, more
significantly, the concept of "the nations," the more I am convinced that they
are hopelessly mired in a semantic swamp of bigotry and hatred.

You haven't addressed the most compelling evidence of all: the content of
talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.jews and soc.culture.israel over the years,
which provide a superb database for the study of language, culture, and
inter-cultural relations. All three newsgroups are brimming over with bigotry
and hostility towards virtually every nation and religion on earth. There is
nothing else like it on the Usenet that I know of. Most of this bigotry clearly
has a strong ideological and theological basis.

Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>Yes, but don't forget what many posters in this thread have been 
>stressing all along: "Goy" and "goyim" are inherently non-derogatory in 
>_Hebrew_ and _Yiddish_, as "Polak" is inherently non-derogatory in 
>English and "Russky" is inherently non-derogatory in Russian.  "Goyim" is 
>the normal way to say "non-Jews" in a totally neutral context in Yiddish 
>or Hebrew. 

But this is precisely where our discussion has become stuck; we are not moving
forward. I provided a good deal of documentary evidence from the Jewish Bible
indicating that the concept to which these supposedly non-derogatory terms refer
is intensely derogatory. Tainted concepts produce tainted words, no matter what
the language.

>But Peres was speaking Hebrew, to an Hebrew-speaking audience.

And the content and context of his remarks make it crystal clear that he was
referring to the goyim in a derogatory fashion, and one which was full of a
mythological resonance that was central to the rhetoric of known xenophobes like
Menachem Begin. Peres was deliberately pushing that xenophobic button for his
Israeli audience. Peres had a xenophobic moment (although he is not usually a
xenophobe), and used a xenophobic term to express himself.
 
> Howard Stern is an example: for him a "goy" is bestial, stupid, drunken and
> criminal. He has often used the word "hillbilly" as a synonym for "goy." He's
> obviously talking about (and slurring) non-Jews.

>There is nothing whatsoever in common with Stern's deliberate use of 
>"goy" in English and Peres' use of "goyim" in Hebrew.

It sounds to me like they both dislike or distrust non-Jews. (Please, I am not
trying to compare Stern and Peres very closely. Peres is a decent human being.)

>I never denied the fact that the notion of "the Nations" is often a 
>reflection of what I have called "the ugly side of nationalism".  My 
>claim is that the notion of "we good guys vs. them bad guys", despicable 
>as it is, is a universal notion, found in the nationalistic, patriotic, 
>chauvinistic writings and culture of practically every religion or 
>nationality on earth.

Good--we agree that "the nations" is predominantly an ugly concept and term in
the Jewish Bible.

What would be the equivalent term in foundational documents for the nations of,
say, the United States, Australia or Switzerland? What nations in the world have
organized the concept of "all the other nations but us" into a derogatory
religious symbol and myth?

>My problem is that you consistently identify this ugly human trait 
>exclusively with Judaism and Israel.

I have done no such thing. Ugly forms of nationalism and xenophobia are a
universal human trait that flare up at varying times all around the planet.
 
>> In the Christian Bible we see matters reversed somewhat: the so-called chosen
>> people--Israel, the Jews--are singled out for contempt and hatred.
> 
>> It would appear that the two halves of the Bible are engaged in a kind of
>> spitting contest, one which some people might want to avoid altogether.

>This is probably the first time I have seen you cite something negative 
>about mainstream Christianity.  Now: If you yourself admit that the Jews 
>have been singled out for contempt and hatred in the Christian Bible, 
>which is perhaps the strongest cultural and ideological influence 
>underlying Western civilization, how can you criticize Jews who say that 
>the western world is against them?

But who started this spitting contest? The negative attitudes towards outsiders
in the Jewish Bible long predate Christianity. The problems between "Israel" and
"the nations" long predate Christianity. It looks to me like the Jews and the
nations are trapped in an endless loop of ugly conflict. I would like to find a
way to break out of the loop--how about you?

One way is to point out that many Christian documents are tainted by
anti-Semitism. Most Christians have admitted that years ago, apologized, and
made a sincere commitment to change their attitude and behavior.
 
>> Here's a question for you: what does "goyische kopf" mean?

>"Goyische kop" ("Kopf" is German; in Yiddish, this combination becomes 
>"p") means, literally, "gentile head".

The clear meaning seems to be that the goyim are innately stupid. I have
actually heard Jews on the Usenet make this statement without the least hint of
irony. It's obvious what the term means, and how the semantic disassembly
operates.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:46 PDT 1996
Article: 53691 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: McGuire "Checks Out" Shahak (part 3)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:42:40 GMT
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aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>>Roger Froikin  wrote:
>>>Israel Shahak is a totally secular, anti-religious, left-leaning....
>
>>Of course, that describes the majority of the founders of Israel.
>
>Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon...  a veritable Hall  of 
>Secular Fame... as are the continuous presence of Jews for
>the last 3300 years, and those  for the last 2000 years  in the
>diaspora who prayed thrice daily for an opportunity to  return 
>to the Holy Land.

We are talking about modern Israel, Zionist Israel, which is a radically
different enterprise than ancient Israel.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:46 PDT 1996
Article: 53692 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:59:20 GMT
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Jim Fitzsimmons  wrote:

>Hi Wayne
>I think the Japanese term is * gajin *. I too was struck by the 
>similarity. How strange to despise the Other yet to seek his sympathy!
>Jim F

It is indeed bizarre to see so many people seek so many favors from people whom
they have verbally abused at such length. I am trying to understand the
psychology and mindset, and I can't. It is completely alien to everything I know
about sensible and decent human behavior.

(Let's be very clear here: most Jews do not buy into this weirdness. One also
hopes that most Japanese these days are not fuming against the "gaijin." The
last I looked the Japanese were not looking for billions of dollars in foreign
aid from the "gaijin.")
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:47 PDT 1996
Article: 53693 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Mordechai Nisan)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:46:20 GMT
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.qml
.book excerpt

author=Yehoshafat Harkabi
title=Israel's Fateful Hour
city=New York
publisher=Harper & Row
year=1988

excerpt=

(page=153)

     A reasoned analysis of the status of non-Jews in a Jewish
     state can be found in an article entitled "A New Approach to
     Israeli-Arab Peace" published in Kivvunim 24
     (August 1984), an official publication of the World Zionist
     Organization. The author is Mordechai Nisan, a lecturer on
     the Middle East at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. According
     to Dr. Nisan, Jews are permitted to discriminate against
     foreigners in a way that Jews would angrily denounce were it
     done to them. What is permissible to us is forbidden to
     others:

        While it is true that Jews are a particular people, they
        nonetheless are designated as a "light unto the nations."
        This function is imposed on the Jews who strive to be a
        living aristocracy among the nations, a nation that has
        deeper historical roots, greater spiritual obligations,
        higher moral standards, and more powerful intellectual
        capacities than others. This vision, which diverges from
        the widely accepted egalitarian approach, is not at all
        based on an arbitrary hostility towards non-Jews, but
        rather on a fundamental existential understanding of the
        quality of Jewish peoplehood.

     Thus the concept of the "Chosen People" as an aristocracy
     provides sanction for the unequal and discriminatory
     treatment of non-Jews, who are inferior. Nisan does not
     consider the possibility that other nations might also claim
     aristocratic status for themselves.

     Nisan continues in a passage that must be presented in its
     entirety to register the tribalism of this mindset:

        The Land was the special divinely granted territorial
        promise to Abraham and his seed.... Non-Jews, without a
        role on the highest plane of religious endeavor, are thus
        without a role on the plane of public activity. The
        linkage of politics and religion in the Jewish experience
        is supported by the equally tight connection between
        kinship and politics. Those of "the tribe" are

(page=154)

        the sole bearers of authority to determine national
        affairs in the Land of Israel....

        The category of ben-noah [son of Noah] defines
        the non-Jew who has accepted the seven Noachide laws. In
        return for being permitted to live in the country of
        sacred history and religious purpose, the
        ben-noah must accept to pay a tax and to suffer
        the humiliation of servitude (see Deut. 20:11).
        Maimonides, in his legal code on the Laws of Kings,
        states explicitly that he be "held down and not raise his
        head against Jews." Non-Jews must not be appointed to any
        office or position of power over Jews. If they refuse to
        live a life of inferiority, then this will signal
        rebellion and the unavoidable necessity of Jewish warfare
        against their very presence in the Land of Israel....

     Nisan is not presenting merely a theoretical analysis; he
     offers practical suggestions as well. A non-Jew must not be
     appointed to any public post in Israel. With regard to the
     "autonomy" concept of letting the Arabs have self-rule only
     under Israeli supervision, he writes: "This political
     solution is thus in the spirit of the traditional Jewish
     approach, both with regard to the Land of Israel and with
     regard to non-Jewish minorities within it."

     If Canada, of which he was formerly a citizen, treated Dr.
     Nisan as a ben-noah, a member of the servant class
     with restricted rights, he would have protested it as
     deplorable discrimination, but he sees no contradiction in
     the Jews, as the chosen people, having a license to treat
     non-Jews in just this way. This is tribal morality given
     theological justification. I do not know how many Jews share
     his belief, but the publication of the article in a leading
     Zionist periodical is cause for grave concern.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 14:21:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53694 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace (Terrorist Threats)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:46:24 GMT
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Topics
-Jewish Threats of Physical Violence
-Jewish Terrorist Threats
-Jewish Death Threats

---BEGIN---

Path:
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From: israel.tekhelet@tekhelet.com (Israel Tekhelet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel
Subject: YOU ARE CALLIN DOWN MY JEWS YOUR WALKING ON THE FIGHTING SIDE OF ME.
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:54:10 GMT
Message-ID: <960523183028607@tekhelet.com>
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When your calling down my Jews your walking on the fighting side of me.
Well my Jews never did you no wrong why are you so mean, why are you an
antisemetic bastard child of Adolf Hitler?  Well let me tell you
something, when your calling down my Jews your walking on the fighting
side of me.  My Jews are so kind they do what is right and stay sane and
happy, but when your calling down my Jews your walking on the fighting
side of me.  Now if you name is Wayne Mcquire someone needs to punch
your eyes out and shit in your skull, because you Wayne McQuire are
sickening you are the kind of person I hate, because your calling down
my Jews and still have the ordasity to menistrate.  When your calling
down my Jews your walking on the fighting side of me. Well Wayne Mcquire
is a jealous son of a bitch he is jealous of all the Jews, he's a
trouble maker and a fag and he left his dinner in the shithouse bag. I
don't like Wayne Mcquire because he called down my Jews and when your
calling down my Jews your walking on the fighting side of me. Then there
is the problem with several Arabs that psot to soc.culture.israel, their
calling down my Jews and walking on the fighting side of me.  Well when
we fight the Arabs we do it real cool we do it neat we chop off their
silly heads and hang them upside down by there feet.  Well the Arabs are
vicious and not a respectable enemy they fight like panseys, and
everyone knows a panseys is a baleblukemnasey.  Well I don't like the
Arabs calling down my Jews and when you are calling down my Jews your
walking on the fighting side of me.  Well there was this one mean
hateful Arab that received a righteous blow he was ran over by a car and
the children called him a malignant smhoo.  You see when you are calling
down my Jews you are walking on the fighting side of me.  Now I'll tell
you something about Arabs that you all might like to know, most are
retarded from inbreeding they really can help it but they don't care
because their womens tits ar bare.  Well when your calling down my Jews
your walking on the fighting side of me.
Israel Tekhelet

---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 15:35:05 PDT 1996
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
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--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:39 PDT 1996
Article: 73679 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Isaiah)
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:57:27 GMT
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bshane@raleigh.ibm.com (Bryan) wrote:

>Now if you are going to argue that only a psychotic god would
>permit the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel or the Holocaust, then
>I will cede you the point.

When I was commenting that "God" in the Jewish Bible frequently sounds like the
most dangerous and violent psychotic in world history, I had in mind the
bloodthirstiness of "God" towards the entire planet, including Israel and all
the non-Jewish nations--"the nations." "God's" hatred in the Jewish Bible
towards Israel and Jews often even seems to exceed that towards "the nations."
See Leviticus, for instance.

> However, I do not agree with it and tend to
>believe that the psychosis is in the observer, more than the creator.
>Nevertheless, it follows that the only way G-d can be considered
>"sane" in all of this would be if humanity were to be insane.
>I put it to you, which is more likely the sane one in all this,
>humanity or G-d?

One can't entirely rule out that the authors of these bloodthirsty passages were
themselves insane, and were speaking not for God but for their collective tribal
psychosis.

Do you really feel that God is full of hatred, violence and vengeance towards
the entire world, and takes pleasure in making human beings suffer? One runs
into human beings with these attitudes--including many messianic tribalists--but
God?

If you wanted to find a document to destroy the world by, this one might do
quite nicely. (By this document, I mean the entire Bible: elements of the
Christian Bible, especially the Revelation of St. John, match the Jewish Bible
for apocalyptic bloodthirstiness.)

The daring freethinkers among us  will leave open the door to speculation
about whether these authors were speaking for God or for their deranged human
selves.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:40 PDT 1996
Article: 73690 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>- "Goy" is no more _inherently_ derogatory than any neutral word in any
>  lanuage which is used to denote a member of another national, ethnic,
>  or religious group.
>
>- "Goy" can be, and has been, _used_ in a derogatory sense.  But this is
>  not unique to "goy", nor to Hebrew, nor to Yiddish, nor to Israelis,
>  nor to Jews.
>
>- Because the use of an inherently neutral term in a derogatory context
>  is a universal phenomenon and not uniquely Jewish, it is neither
>  fair nor legitimate to cite that use as indicative of some uniquely
>  Jewish fault.
>
>- It is difficult for me to see how Messrs. McGuire and Arens --
>  particularly Mr. Arens, whose background in Hebrew and Israeli culture
>  is common knowledge -- could disagree with any of the three previous
>  points.  Yet they ignore and contradict them in their postings, which
>  -- from where I sit -- looks deliberately misleading and manipulative.
>
>I believe I have now stated my position in a calm, non-abusive, and
>rational way, and without any hint of personal abuse.  I regret that I 
>was too angry to do this in my previous posting.

Avi,

Two points:

1. Over the course of my life I have heard the words "goy" and "goyim" used many
thousands of times with an obviously derogatory intention and inflection. I have
almost never heard the word used in a neutral fashion in normal speech and
writing. Any serious student of language knows that you determine the meaning of
words by studying contemporary usage.

I am reporting to you on my honest experience and as someone who reads widely
and has a fairly solid grasp of contemporary American culture and the nuances of
contemporary American English.

Howard Stern is an example: for him a "goy" is bestial, stupid, drunken and
criminal. He has often used the word "hillbilly" as a synonym for "goy." He's
obviously talking about (and slurring) non-Jews.

2. I did a search on "the nations" in the Jewish Bible, and found that the
references were overwhelmingly condescending, insulting, hostile and negative.
Apparently being an "unchosen people" doesn't carry much status within the
ideological system of the Jewish Bible. I have repeatedly asked you and others
here to explain how any term which refers to "the nations" could be anything but
negative in most cases. I have received not a single rational response on the
point--just a mountain of defensive verbal abuse which seems to indicate a
guilty conscience and great anxiety about dealing with the actual text in the
Jewish Bible.

Within the ideological system of the Jewish Bible, "the chosen people" and "the
nations" are binary opposites. Many references in this text suggest or state
clearly that Israel has a divine right and obligation to rule over all the other
nations, in every respect--including politically, militarily and economically.

In the Christian Bible we see matters reversed somewhat: the so-called chosen
people--Israel, the Jews--are singled out for contempt and hatred.

It would appear that the two halves of the Bible are engaged in a kind of
spitting contest, one which some people might want to avoid altogether.

Here's a question for you: what does "goyische kopf" mean?

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:41 PDT 1996
Article: 73750 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:34:50 GMT
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rimmer@connect.ab.ca wrote:

>Facts?
>
>Read the recent post by (?) (re: the meaning of "goyim") who outlined how many 
>of Mr. McGuire's "facts" were indeed facts.
>
>As with most anti-semites (and I know many of you here will argue with my use 
>of the term, but the meaning of the term in North America, just like the 
>meaning of the term "goyim" in Hebrew is clearly and simply "nations"), Mr. 
>McGuire uses whatever distortions, misapplications, misunderstandings, 
>reflections of reality, and other people's prejudices to damn an entire group.

Really?

What I did was perform a full-text search in the Jewish Bible for "nations" and
discovered that the vast majority of occurrences were negative and insulting
references to non-Jewish nations. Feel free to conduct your own search at:

     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html

The Jewish Bible frequently portrays Israel as dominating or subjugating the
goyim, politically, economically and militarily.

I also pointed out correctly that it is obvious in context that Shimon Peres's
remark about the goyim (the United Nations, the entire world except Israel) was
negative. (Peres was attacking the U.N. for having the audacity to try to
ascertain the facts regarding Israel's massacre of civilians at Qana.)

Others here, speaking honestly from their personal experience, have also pointed
out that the overwhelming usage of "goyim" in contemporary American culture is
negative and bigoted.

Why don't you try rebutting any one or all three of these points rationally and
factually instead of hiding behind a wall of vague verbal abuse and smears.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:43 PDT 1996
Article: 73755 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:04:30 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> Two points:
>> 
>> 1. Over the course of my life I have heard the words "goy" and "goyim" used many
>> thousands of times with an obviously derogatory intention and inflection. I have
>> almost never heard the word used in a neutral fashion in normal speech and
>> writing. Any serious student of language knows that you determine the meaning of
>> words by studying contemporary usage.
>
>Your comment above illustrates your lack of familiarity with Judaism, 
>Jews, or Jewish literature.   I use the term "goy" every day when I 
>recite the prayers, and on every holiday, in the same fashion.  In 
>almost all those cases, the term refers to Jews.

I repeat: if one searches on "nations" or "the nations" in the Jewish Bible, one
finds that the references are overwhelmingly negative and that they almost
always refer to all the nations except the chosen nation, Israel.

This whole discussion started when Shimon Peres spoke contempuously about the
goyim, the nations, the United Nations. Clearly in context Peres was speaking
about all the nations except Israel. Peres was not calling Israel a "goy." Quite
the contrary.

>> Howard Stern is an example: for him a "goy" is bestial, stupid, drunken and
>> criminal. He has often used the word "hillbilly" as a synonym for "goy." He's
>> obviously talking about (and slurring) non-Jews.
>
>A good example of what I've said.  Marginalized assimilated 
>Jews.

Well, I hardly see how you can rule out this sort of usage when trying to
understand how most Americans acquire their sense of the meaning of the word.
This is the usage that is dominant by far in contemporary American culture.
>From  where do you think that Stern and others like him learned to speak about
non-Jews in this way?

>The vast majority of uses of "goy" in the Bible refer to Jews, not 
>anyone else, even when being used in an insulting way as admonition.  
>When it refers to "other nations" it specifies as such, and yes, many of 
>those are insulting because they are in context of nations who tried to 
>defeat, assimilate, or otherwise destroy the Jews.

No, that doesn't really seem to be the case. The Jewish Bible asserts a
metaphysical and theological world model in which Israel by divine right and
imperative rules over all the other nations. This is a pro-active, not a
reactive, division of the world.

Example:

Deuteronomy 15:6
For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

>The propblem here, Wayne, is that you are judging vased on a standard 
>that you want applied only to Jews.

No, that's not it. What I'm trying to figure out is why Israel seems to be in
such greater conflict with the entire world and "the nations" and the United
Nations than any other nation on earth. Perhaps the reason is that few other
nations in the world have constructed a religious mythology around themselves in
which this kind of global struggle is central to their self-identity.

If Israel's problems didn't impact so heavily on Americans, Americans would not
very much concern themselves with Israel's odd ideas in this regard.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:43 PDT 1996
Article: 73756 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Amos Oz)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:06:28 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> Amos Oz remarks below that in invading Lebanon in 1982, Menachem Begin
>> exploited the attitude among many Jews that "After what all those dirty goyim
>> have done to us, none of them is entitled to preach morality to us."
> 
>The question was, Wayne, was Begin wrong to have that attitude ?  Given 
>his experience, his response and expectations made sense.

The main point is that it was quite clear that when Begin was speaking about
"goyim" he was spraying bile at all non-Jews. He was a religious, unassimilated
Jew. His usage of "goyim" differed little from Howard Stern's.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:44 PDT 1996
Article: 73773 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: McGuire "Checks Out" Shahak (part 3)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:18:52 GMT
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backon@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

>Israel Shahak is a retired professor of chemistry at Hebrew Univeristy
>(whom I happen to meet at least once every 2 weeks religiously at the
>Rechavia post office :-). Shahak is a Holocaust survivor who is very
>angry at God and who detests the Orthodox community. That, in a nutshell,
>explains why he acts the way he does.
>
>Since my area of medicine isn't in psychiatry, I won't delve into why
>Shahak is projecting on Israel and Judaism what happened to him in WWII.

Josh,

I know you too well now to take your peccadilloes in anything but good humor, so
I will simply observe that you have presented one point of view.

Another point of view is that Israel Shahak is a very bright, courgaeous and
decent man with strong libertarian leanings philosophically who has been
concerned about the problematic role of Jewish fundamentalism in Israeli
political life.

His concerns in this regard have been amply vindicated by recent events in
Israel, and in some respects I suppose many people would call him a prophet.

Wayne

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:45 PDT 1996
Article: 73796 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Jewish Hate in Hebron
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:03:07 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Question: What is the interest of America and the average American in supporting
Jewish settlers in Hebron who hold racist views?

.qml
.newspaper article excerpt

author=Ethan Bronner
title=Israel Vote Won't Solve Hebron's Riddle
newspaper=The Boston Globe
date=May 26, 1996

excerpt=

Since the settlers in Hebron are among the most fervent of Jewish nationalists,
believing they are part of a celestial scheme for Jewish reconquest of the
Promised Land, the conflict here seems insoluble. 

Posters in Arabic, apparently written by settlers, mar the front of the Muslim
religious authority building with the words: ``Hebron is our city and the Arabs
are our dogs.''

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:46 PDT 1996
Article: 73804 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: McGuire "Checks Out" Shahak (part 3)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:58:33 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Israel Shahak is a totally secular, anti-religious, left-leaning....

Of course, that describes the majority of the founders of Israel.

Shahak is more critical of doctrinaire leftism than your average Israeli
leftist, however.

>So, the question is this, Wayne, if you're so interested in Jewish 
>thought, perhaps you should look at the thought and concerns of those 
>who identify themselves as Jewish for more than the profit they make by 
>attacking Jews.

I wasn't aware that Shahak was profiting from his writings. How much do you
imagine he has made?

I've read the writings of hundreds of prominent Jewish writers, religious and
secular. I hardly rely on Shahak as my chief authority on anything. But he's
been quite astute on recognizing the dangers of religious Zionism and Jewish
fundamentalism in Israeli political life before the world in general caught on.

After Kahane, Goldstein and Amir, his stock has definitely gone up. It will
probably continue to rise.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:46 PDT 1996
Article: 73807 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:03:35 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Try leaving Jews alone and in peace -- and then see what they do, and 
>then, be my guest, and judge their actions.

Like the Qana Massacre? The continued violations of human rights in the occupied
territories? How much more of that kind of activity do Americans want to be
involved in?

>                                                      Are you saying that Jews 
>should just stay quiet when they are being attacked, Wayne ?

Not at all: speak right up. And I imagine non-Jews will speak right up when they
feel that Jews are attempting to involve them in questionable activities in the
name of Jewish nationalism. It's a nice, reciprocal relationship.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:47 PDT 1996
Article: 73808 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim -- This Time Without Ranting
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:15:44 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: The bottom line is that you and Kahanists like Jody Eisenman may end up in the
>: same political camp, thanks to the blunders of the Israeli government. How sad.
>
>Yes, everyone who opposes you is a Kahanist. Since you oppose virtually 
>all Jews, then virtually all of us must be right wing, fanatical, 
>orthodox, Kahanists. ROTFL.

Oh, hardly. I'm very careful about using the word "Kahanist" and words in
general.

You are a self-declared Kahanist, and a supporter of the segregation of Jews and
Arabs in the Middle East. There is absolutely no difference between you and the
typical Ku Klux Klan member or neo-Nazi in the U.S. Your views place you on the
extreme, racist right, in the hate group spectrum along with dozens of other
Kahanists on the Usenet.

In your recent messages you haven't been able to express one coherent, rational
or substantive thought. You're just angry and ranting.

It seems to make you furious that non-Jews are paying close attention to Israeli
politics. You'd better get use to it. For instance, if you have been paying
attention, and know what information sources to monitor (which isn't likely,
given the crudity of your posts), you will have noticed that the U.S., England,
Germany and France have also expressed themselves very strongly in recent days
about the upcoming elections in Israel. None of these countries is going to be
very patient with Likud if it comes back into power.

Israel is totally dependent on Western aid and support. Since you still haven't
grasped this point after being reminded of it repeatedly, it's not likely that
you ever will. The world is going to seem like a mystifiying and annoying place
to you, where other parties are as concerned about their interests as you are
about yours. Spooky....
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:48 PDT 1996
Article: 73819 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>In a world where every people, every nation, teaches its own history 
>from its own perspective, not just the Jews,  why is it that in your 
>opinion, only Jews should do differently ?

Jews have shown no hesitation or shyness about looking carefully, often with a
highly critical eye, into the core documents of Christianity, Islam, Arab
nationalism and every other religion and nationalist movement under the sun.
Some major Jewish organizations have even called for significant changes to
these documents.

But some Jews become edgy and angry when non-Jews make the same inquiries into
the core documents of Jewish nationalism.

Why the double standards?

Since Jewish nationalism now plays such a central role in American foreign
policy and domestic politics--all this as a result of the lobbying and pressure
of Jewish nationalists--why in the world shouldn't Americans try to understand
what Jewish nationalism is all about?

I think what's causing many Americans to become skeptical about the entire
Zionist enterprise is the vision of many Jewish nationalists doing the
following:

1. Poking around aggressively in the texts of other religions and national
movements and issuing strong critical judgements.

2. Verbally attacking any outsider who looks into the texts of Jewish
nationalism.

3. Demanding endless financial, political and military aid from these same
outsiders--goyim.

Can you imagine a more effective formula for stirring up hostility and
alienating everyone?
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:49 PDT 1996
Article: 73860 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Shahak, Religious Zionism and Jewish Fundamentalism
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>No, I was addressing a single point.  That is, what is the veracity of
>Israel Shahak as a source for the claims that these "negative elements
>in Judaism" even exist?

Oh, please: these negative elements exist in abundance. I provided you with a
long list of reputable books by contemporary authors which explore this subject.
Apparently you aren't familiar with any of them.

>What I did was to take a couple of examples,
>almost at random, and showed that when Shahak tries to "demonstrate" that
>there is some fundamentally "negative" aspect of Judaism, he seems to
>either have misunderstood his own sources or is lying about them outright.

You are misrepresenting or "lying about" (to use your inflammatory language)
Shahak's approach. You discovered three relatively trivial points on which there
is disagreement within Judaism. You hardly proved that the negative elements
Shahak mentioned don't exist. And you haven't even begun to tackle the many
thousands of points that Shahak makes in his book and in his other writings that
are obviously true.

Why don't you carefully demonstrate how many facts Shahak got wrong in the
following essay:

---BEGIN---

From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Goyim and Israeli Politics
Message-ID: <12993@venera.isi.edu>
Date: 20 Apr 90 03:45:50 GMT
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Ha'aretz, April  5, 1990.

THE STATUS OF THE GOY IN HALACHA AND IN ISRAELI POLITICS

By Israel Shahak (an opinion piece in the paper's "Open Stage"
column)

The primary reason for the numerous surprises encountered not
only by politicians but also by the majority of secular Israelis,
when the true positions of Ultra Orthodox [Haredi] or plain
Orthodox [Dati] Rabbis on various political issues become known,
is that the secular and religious communities actually speak two
different languages. In these two languages, the meaning of most
concepts, from the simplest ones to the fundamental concepts
influencing politics, differ. Unlike under similar circumstances
in other cultures, there does not exist a "dictionary" that can
be used to translate Halacha terminology into the language of the
secular public. In principle, the responsibility for this
situation lies with what is called -- erroneously, in my opinion
-- "Judaic Studies". This field deals primarily with "ideological
propaganda". It does not provide (with the exception of a few
essays written recently on specific problems) the true history of
Halacha Judaism, from which some of us have managed to free
ourselves, nor does it explain its basic concepts. The situation
is further complicated by the fact that Halacha Judaism was the
Judaism of my parents and of many generations that preceded them.
One of the reasons behind the organized confusion of "Judaic
Studies" is the ideological desire to refrain from shocking the
public and deepening the gap between the generations, a
consequence of the younger generation discovering the truth. The
truth not only about the leaders of today's Ultra Orthodox, but --
what is more important -- about its parents and forefathers.

The Great Enemy

It is not only common sense, history, and what is taking place
now in Eastern Europe, that prove that concealing basic facts is
the greatest enemy of every regime; Present political reality in
Israel as well demands that the truth concerning Jewish Halachic
principles be explained to the secular Israeli public in a
language that it can understand.

In Halachic terminology the word "soul" [nefesh] always means
"Jew" or "Jew with some special characteristics". When Halacha
refers to non-Jews, that is explicitly noted and is expressed by
the use of words like "Goy", or "Nations of the World" [umot
ha'olam]. Thus, the use of the word "soul" in the Halachic term
"preservation of a soul" [piku'ach nefesh], indicates that it
speaks of Jews only (and not even of Druze or other non-Jews who
serve in the IDF, say). This can be demonstrated with examining
other uses of the word "soul". In Halacha there exists the
concept of "soul-food" [ochel-nefesh], which refers to food in
preparation of which a Jew is permitted to work, e.g., by
cooking, on a holiday.

A well known and explicit Halachic ruling, observed to this very
day, asserts that a Jew may not work in preparation of such
"soul-food" if it is meant for non-Jews or dogs (thus precisely
states the Talmud), despite the use of the term "soul" to
describe the food. Needless to say, in the context of the
diaspora various allowances were made for situations in which it
was nevertheless permitted to feed a goy with food prepared on a
holiday only for Jews. For example, if the goy would be offended
and is capable of causing harm. But the principle that the Jew
cooking on a holiday not increase the amount for goyim or for
dogs has been strictly kept by our forefathers and by religious
Jews to this very day.

Even the term "preservation of a soul" [piku'ach nefesh,
eliminating the threat of death] itself, as everyone with even
minimal familiarity with Talmudic literature is well aware, does
not apply to a goy. Not only so, but in principle a Jew,
including a Jewish doctor, is forbidden to save the life of a goy
for reasons that we, but not the Orthodox, would call
"humanitarian". A Jew is strictly forbidden to save a goy if this
involves desecration of the Sabbath ["lechalel alav et
hashabat"]. In a case of "preservation of a soul" of a Jew,
desecration of the Sabbath is a duty and a commandment.

All these rulings refer, of course, to every goy, of every age.
In the case of "preservation of a soul" -- which applies only of
the "soul" of a Jew -- there are records of lengthy Halachic
arguments, which continue to this day, particularly on the
question of what influence should be given to the fear of the
goyim, or of their hatred, in deciding whether a Jewish doctor
should save a goy. For example, there are discussions of what the
goyim might do if they find out that Jewish doctors are unwilling
to treat them, or to desecrate the Sabbath in the course of the
treatment.

In seventeenth century Poland, one of the greatest rabbis ruled
that a Jewish doctor is permitted to desecrate the Sabbath for a
goy who is the mayor, but not for a goy with no influence. A few
years ago, in the state of Israel itself, the Ultra Orthodox
experts on such matters ruled that a Jewish doctor who fears that
his license might be revoked by state authorities if he refuses
to desecrate the Sabbath to treat a goy, is permitted to do so,
provided that during the treatment his thoughts are about his
license and not the treatment itself.

Exemplified by these two cases is the attitude that dominates in
Jewish Halacha towards all goyim in nearly all circumstances. It
is expressed in the most minor matters, such as a strict
prohibition against giving a gift to a goy, or even speaking well
of him. Here too, exceptions were invented over the years for
cases where there is reason to fear the goyim or a desire to
profit from them. It is obvious, even with the various
exceptions, that the attitude towards non-Jews found in these
rulings in totally inhuman. It should be noted that the number of
such rulings is very large and that all Orthodox Jews study them.
This surely impacts them even if they do not have the opportunity
to follow the law -- no less than the mere existence of
anti-Semitic laws would influence a society.

Fraud

Considering all this, the heaps of praise bestowed on the
Halachic rulings of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who stated that
withdrawal from the occupied territories might be permitted due
to the principle of "preservation of the soul", is a prime
example of fraud being perpetrated on the public. This is not to
criticize Rabbi Yosef himself -- He fully explained the true
reasoning behind his rulings more than once, and in perfect
detail. According to Rabbi Yosef (in "Yated Ne'eman", September
18, 1989), we may indeed find ourselves in a position where we
will have to return territories in order to prevent an imminent
war that will cause the death of Jews. And "preservation of the
soul", as he accurately remarks there, applies to the case of a
Jew who is ailing at that very moment -- not one who might become
ill in the future. And it all has to do with the fact that we are
weak.

How does Rabbi Yosef know, and how does he demonstrate to his
readers, that we are weak? By the fact that we are not capable of
expelling all goyim, especially all Christians, from the Land of
Israel, as we would have been obliged to do if we were not weak!

Rabbi Yosef continues and provides an additional argument: we
know we are weak because we have been unable to halt the intifada
and there is fear for the life of Jews in the occupied
territories. We therefore cannot state that in the territories we
"act as in our own home" [osim bahem ke'adam ha'oseh betoch
shelo]. If we could act so, that would prove that we were strong,
and we would not have to withdraw from the territories. Using
similar reasoning in his most recent TV appearance, Rabbi Yosef
raises the danger of Arab chemical weapons and the strength of
Arab armies as further arguments for withdrawal from the
territories. Similarly, Rabbi Shach claimed in the same issue of
"Yated Ne'eman" that we are weak because we rely on US aid, and
for that reason we must negotiate withdrawal from the
territories.

No right of the goyim who reside in these territories to
participate in the decisions concerning their future -- a right
that was acknowledged by Begin, and at least formally by Shamir
and Sharon -- was ever mentioned by these rabbis, nor will it
ever be. Because in no case does the goy have inherent rights in
the Halacha when confronting a Jew. He obtains rights only by his
power, particularly his threats. The greater the threat of the
goy to the lives of Jews, the more recognition of his rights by
the Halacha.

If our situation grows worse and the threat of war is imminent,
only then will the Ultra Orthodox agree to withdraw from the
territories. If whoever becomes Prime Minister of Israel with the
blessing of the Ultra Orthodox wishes to return any territory in
exchange for peace with Hussein, he will have to make certain
that Israel is as weak as possible. If he assures Israel's
strength, the Ultra Orthodox will prevent the return of the
territories to any goy. They will even begin to demand a transfer
of the non-Jewish population, at least that of Christians.

If the Arabs will not have chemical weapons, if their armies
weaken and the intifada ends -- not only will it be Halachically
forbidden to withdraw, it may be possible to begin expelling the
goyim, particularly the Christians, whose churches must also be
destroyed. If a miracle occurs and all the Palestinians and the
Arab countries accept Mubarak Awad's non-violent approach, and if
our power in the US grows a thousandfold -- it will be permitted
according to Halacha to expel the goyim not only from the Land of
Israel, but from "any place we conquer", according to Rabbi
Yosef.

These views are also accepted by those who are called --
erroneously, in my opinion -- "the religious peace movement",
i.e., the groups "Oz Veshalom" and "Netivot Shalom". These
organizations disseminate in the religious community an earlier
Halachic ruling by Rabbi Yosef, which also discusses the
expulsion of the Christians and the destruction of their churches
when we gain sufficient strength, as proof that we currently lack
such strength.

Our Ultra Orthodox rabbis must be treated as we would expect
others to treat anti-Semites of this kind, and we must finally
understand: No peace negotiations and no other positive or
humanistic process can be built upon an alliance with the
Orthodox [dati] forces in general and with the Ultra Orthodox
[haredi] in particular. --

Yigal Arens
USC/ISI
arens@isi.edu

---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:50 PDT 1996
Article: 73864 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: The History of Aaron Gross in Cyberspace
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:11:34 GMT
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aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross) wrote:

(Long diatribe deleted:)

If anyone is curious about the facts concerning Aaron Gross, email me and I will
give you the scoop. I am not going to subject the public discussion space to a
personal feud. If Gross contributes here for more than a week or two, you will
quickly have him in focus.

Gross's basic method is to leave thousands of messages pushing his religious
Zionist views, and then to complain bitterly when anyone disagrees with him.

Gross is quite unique (and infantile by the standards of the Internet), because
rarely on the Usenet does one find someone enter controversial forums with
controversial views and then complain loudly when the views of others vary.
What people of even low to moderate intelligence do is engage in debate about
their views. But not Gross: he can go on for years harping on the extraordinary
fact that someone has actually dared to disagree with him! It's a really
remarkable and funny act: check it out.

Gross's inability to deal with opposing views is so strong that has he even
attempted to censor those who disagree with him on other networks.

The whole sorry history has been archived, including Gross's propensity to
deliberately alter and misrepresent documents to try to deal with the fact that
he can't present and defend his views in a rational and fair way.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:51 PDT 1996
Article: 73865 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>What Wayne, and incidentally most Americans and Europeans seem to ignore 
>is the fact that their own histories are replete with examples of 
>nationalism, chauvinism, and tribalism.   If they were not, then why 
>don't they open their borders and erase them from the map ?

Why do you say this? I am quite aware of all these facts. What makes you think
otherwise?

Aaron Gross, by the way, has often made the argument that since America
committed genocide against the American Indians, Israel has a right to commit
genocide against the Palestinians.

The genocide of the American Indians is one of the most shameful acts in
European and American history. Americans have no desire to commit such an act
again, or to support any nation which would commit such an act.

Gross's apologetics for Israel also provide a justification for the Holocaust:
if the Americans can destroy the American Indians, and if the Israelis can
destroy the Palestinians, why isn't any act of genocide justifiable? All's fair
in nation-building and nation-defense.

You will quickly learn that Aaron Gross is a disaster for Israeli public
relations: he makes arguments that even most Kahanists are clever enough to
avoid from a public image standpoint. Of all the folks I have debated on these
issues, he is by far the weakest and the one most likely to put his foot in his
mouth time after time.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:52 PDT 1996
Article: 73866 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Hasidim and Martin Buber)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:36:33 GMT
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srs3@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Motti) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>
>>It seems to be a fair statement that
> within the ideological system of the Jewish
>>Bible that the concept of "the nations" is overwhelmingly negative and
>>insulting. Therefore, any term that refers to this concept (including "goyim")
>>is also usually negative.
>
>Notice that Wayne changed his tune a bit ( ..."including "goyim"").
>He first asserted that the term goyim was intrinsically derogoatroy.
>After quoting many verses (where the term goyim didn't even appear)
>and also noting that Israel is regularly, in liturgical hebrew, referred
>to as a goy he has modified to argument to simply "the bible
>bashes other nations...whether using the word goyim or not)"

Any term, including "goyim," which mentions the concept of "the nations" appears
to be predominantly negative within the ideological system of the Jewish Bible.

>However, this "ideological system" is a total fantasy in the mind of
>Wayne MacGuire.  He never tells us what this "system" is (just asserts
>it is one of indiscrimant bigotry) nor has he even done this biblical
>survey to show that the nations are usually refereed to disparigningly.

Really? I have posted a collection of representative passages here now a number
of times, and challenged you and others to produce passages which depict "the
nations" in a positive light.

Obviously none of you can meet the challenge. You've lost the argument.

---Begin: Passages from the Bible About the "The Nations"---

Deuteronomy 14
2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD
hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the
nations that [are] upon the earth. 

Deuteronomy 15
6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou
shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou
shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee. 

Deuteronomy 26
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,
as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his
commandments; 
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in
praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy
people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. 

Deuteronomy 28
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments
which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on
high above all nations of the earth...

Deuteronomy 28
12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give
the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of
thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not
borrow. 

Psalms 47
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of
triumph. 
2 For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all
the earth. 
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

Psalms 72
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
the ends of the earth. 
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his
enemies shall lick the dust. 
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the
kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve
him. 

Psalms 96
1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from
day to day. 
3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people. 
4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be
feared above all gods. 
5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the
heavens. 

Psalms 118
10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I
destroy them. 
11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the
name of the LORD I will destroy them. 
12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of
thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 

Isaiah 2
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
people...

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the
earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that
come forth of it. 
2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his]
fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath
delivered them to the slaughter. 
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up
out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their
blood

---End---


--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:52 PDT 1996
Article: 73867 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:40:45 GMT
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Avi,

There comes a point in every debate where the parties sometimes have to agree to
disagree in a friendly way. Perhaps we have reached that point.

As I survey all the evidence concerning the term "goyim," and, more
significantly, the concept of "the nations," the more I am convinced that they
are hopelessly mired in a semantic swamp of bigotry and hatred.

You haven't addressed the most compelling evidence of all: the content of
talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.jews and soc.culture.israel over the years,
which provide a superb database for the study of language, culture, and
inter-cultural relations. All three newsgroups are brimming over with bigotry
and hostility towards virtually every nation and religion on earth. There is
nothing else like it on the Usenet that I know of. Most of this bigotry clearly
has a strong ideological and theological basis.

Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>Yes, but don't forget what many posters in this thread have been 
>stressing all along: "Goy" and "goyim" are inherently non-derogatory in 
>_Hebrew_ and _Yiddish_, as "Polak" is inherently non-derogatory in 
>English and "Russky" is inherently non-derogatory in Russian.  "Goyim" is 
>the normal way to say "non-Jews" in a totally neutral context in Yiddish 
>or Hebrew. 

But this is precisely where our discussion has become stuck; we are not moving
forward. I provided a good deal of documentary evidence from the Jewish Bible
indicating that the concept to which these supposedly non-derogatory terms refer
is intensely derogatory. Tainted concepts produce tainted words, no matter what
the language.

>But Peres was speaking Hebrew, to an Hebrew-speaking audience.

And the content and context of his remarks make it crystal clear that he was
referring to the goyim in a derogatory fashion, and one which was full of a
mythological resonance that was central to the rhetoric of known xenophobes like
Menachem Begin. Peres was deliberately pushing that xenophobic button for his
Israeli audience. Peres had a xenophobic moment (although he is not usually a
xenophobe), and used a xenophobic term to express himself.
 
> Howard Stern is an example: for him a "goy" is bestial, stupid, drunken and
> criminal. He has often used the word "hillbilly" as a synonym for "goy." He's
> obviously talking about (and slurring) non-Jews.

>There is nothing whatsoever in common with Stern's deliberate use of 
>"goy" in English and Peres' use of "goyim" in Hebrew.

It sounds to me like they both dislike or distrust non-Jews. (Please, I am not
trying to compare Stern and Peres very closely. Peres is a decent human being.)

>I never denied the fact that the notion of "the Nations" is often a 
>reflection of what I have called "the ugly side of nationalism".  My 
>claim is that the notion of "we good guys vs. them bad guys", despicable 
>as it is, is a universal notion, found in the nationalistic, patriotic, 
>chauvinistic writings and culture of practically every religion or 
>nationality on earth.

Good--we agree that "the nations" is predominantly an ugly concept and term in
the Jewish Bible.

What would be the equivalent term in foundational documents for the nations of,
say, the United States, Australia or Switzerland? What nations in the world have
organized the concept of "all the other nations but us" into a derogatory
religious symbol and myth?

>My problem is that you consistently identify this ugly human trait 
>exclusively with Judaism and Israel.

I have done no such thing. Ugly forms of nationalism and xenophobia are a
universal human trait that flare up at varying times all around the planet.
 
>> In the Christian Bible we see matters reversed somewhat: the so-called chosen
>> people--Israel, the Jews--are singled out for contempt and hatred.
> 
>> It would appear that the two halves of the Bible are engaged in a kind of
>> spitting contest, one which some people might want to avoid altogether.

>This is probably the first time I have seen you cite something negative 
>about mainstream Christianity.  Now: If you yourself admit that the Jews 
>have been singled out for contempt and hatred in the Christian Bible, 
>which is perhaps the strongest cultural and ideological influence 
>underlying Western civilization, how can you criticize Jews who say that 
>the western world is against them?

But who started this spitting contest? The negative attitudes towards outsiders
in the Jewish Bible long predate Christianity. The problems between "Israel" and
"the nations" long predate Christianity. It looks to me like the Jews and the
nations are trapped in an endless loop of ugly conflict. I would like to find a
way to break out of the loop--how about you?

One way is to point out that many Christian documents are tainted by
anti-Semitism. Most Christians have admitted that years ago, apologized, and
made a sincere commitment to change their attitude and behavior.
 
>> Here's a question for you: what does "goyische kopf" mean?

>"Goyische kop" ("Kopf" is German; in Yiddish, this combination becomes 
>"p") means, literally, "gentile head".

The clear meaning seems to be that the goyim are innately stupid. I have
actually heard Jews on the Usenet make this statement without the least hint of
irony. It's obvious what the term means, and how the semantic disassembly
operates.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:53 PDT 1996
Article: 73868 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: McGuire "Checks Out" Shahak (part 3)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:42:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>>Roger Froikin  wrote:
>>>Israel Shahak is a totally secular, anti-religious, left-leaning....
>
>>Of course, that describes the majority of the founders of Israel.
>
>Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon...  a veritable Hall  of 
>Secular Fame... as are the continuous presence of Jews for
>the last 3300 years, and those  for the last 2000 years  in the
>diaspora who prayed thrice daily for an opportunity to  return 
>to the Holy Land.

We are talking about modern Israel, Zionist Israel, which is a radically
different enterprise than ancient Israel.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:54 PDT 1996
Article: 73869 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:59:20 GMT
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Jim Fitzsimmons  wrote:

>Hi Wayne
>I think the Japanese term is * gajin *. I too was struck by the 
>similarity. How strange to despise the Other yet to seek his sympathy!
>Jim F

It is indeed bizarre to see so many people seek so many favors from people whom
they have verbally abused at such length. I am trying to understand the
psychology and mindset, and I can't. It is completely alien to everything I know
about sensible and decent human behavior.

(Let's be very clear here: most Jews do not buy into this weirdness. One also
hopes that most Japanese these days are not fuming against the "gaijin." The
last I looked the Japanese were not looking for billions of dollars in foreign
aid from the "gaijin.")
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:55 PDT 1996
Article: 73886 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Mordechai Nisan)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:48:22 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 153
Message-ID: <31a9cc09.236472352@news.cybercom.net>
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>>      Thus the concept of the "Chosen People" as an aristocracy
>>      provides sanction for the unequal and discriminatory
>>      treatment of non-Jews, who are inferior. Nisan does not
>>      consider the possibility that other nations might also claim
>>      aristocratic status for themselves.
>
>Absurd.
>
>The Jewish view is that being "chosen" creates a responsibility to 
>behave better, to act more morally, etc.
>
>There is no place in that for treatment of any other people in a harmful 
>or negative manner.  On the contrary Jews are commanded to treat the 
>guest, the visitor, among them as they treat each other.
>
>Your igfnorance of Jewish law and tradition, Wayne (no fault of yours) 
>is leading you to make assumptions based on snippets of information here 
>and there, and that's leading you to laughable conclusions.

Roger,

You just gave a classic illustration of your inability to deal with facts and
texts.

You failed to respond to Yehoshafat Harkabi and you failed to respond to the
damning and well-documented remarks by Mordechai Nisan.

You are clearly in a state of denial regarding negative currents in Judaism and
Zionism. You've locked yourself into an indefensible position, and any bright
person will be able to chip away at it with the greatest of ease.

As with Avi, I think we've come to that point in the discussion where we will
have to agree to disagree. From my standpoint, you are just spinning your wheels
and evading one solid fact after another.

Wayne

P.S. Harkabi is one of the more important Jewish and Israeli thinkers of the
last few decades. He certainly towers over almost everyone in these newsgroups.
You failed to deal with the following passage, or with dozens of other passages
like it in his book.

Policy elites all around the world have read Harkabi--certainly the foreign
ministries of all the Western democracies are familiar with his thinking--which
helps account for their present attitudes towards Likud.

True believers like yourself are seriously out of touch with the rest of the
world on these matters. You don't understand how it is that Israel has become so
isolated from "the nations." And the more that people like yourself offer bogus
apologetics for the bigotry that Harkabi and others have uncovered, the deeper
the isolation into which Israel sinks. You are losing your credibility.

.qml
.book excerpt

author=Yehoshafat Harkabi
title=Israel's Fateful Hour
city=New York
publisher=Harper & Row
year=1988

excerpt=

(page=153)

     A reasoned analysis of the status of non-Jews in a Jewish
     state can be found in an article entitled "A New Approach to
     Israeli-Arab Peace" published in Kivvunim 24
     (August 1984), an official publication of the World Zionist
     Organization. The author is Mordechai Nisan, a lecturer on
     the Middle East at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. According
     to Dr. Nisan, Jews are permitted to discriminate against
     foreigners in a way that Jews would angrily denounce were it
     done to them. What is permissible to us is forbidden to
     others:

        While it is true that Jews are a particular people, they
        nonetheless are designated as a "light unto the nations."
        This function is imposed on the Jews who strive to be a
        living aristocracy among the nations, a nation that has
        deeper historical roots, greater spiritual obligations,
        higher moral standards, and more powerful intellectual
        capacities than others. This vision, which diverges from
        the widely accepted egalitarian approach, is not at all
        based on an arbitrary hostility towards non-Jews, but
        rather on a fundamental existential understanding of the
        quality of Jewish peoplehood.

     Thus the concept of the "Chosen People" as an aristocracy
     provides sanction for the unequal and discriminatory
     treatment of non-Jews, who are inferior. Nisan does not
     consider the possibility that other nations might also claim
     aristocratic status for themselves.

     Nisan continues in a passage that must be presented in its
     entirety to register the tribalism of this mindset:

        The Land was the special divinely granted territorial
        promise to Abraham and his seed.... Non-Jews, without a
        role on the highest plane of religious endeavor, are thus
        without a role on the plane of public activity. The
        linkage of politics and religion in the Jewish experience
        is supported by the equally tight connection between
        kinship and politics. Those of "the tribe" are

(page=154)

        the sole bearers of authority to determine national
        affairs in the Land of Israel....

        The category of ben-noah [son of Noah] defines
        the non-Jew who has accepted the seven Noachide laws. In
        return for being permitted to live in the country of
        sacred history and religious purpose, the
        ben-noah must accept to pay a tax and to suffer
        the humiliation of servitude (see Deut. 20:11).
        Maimonides, in his legal code on the Laws of Kings,
        states explicitly that he be "held down and not raise his
        head against Jews." Non-Jews must not be appointed to any
        office or position of power over Jews. If they refuse to
        live a life of inferiority, then this will signal
        rebellion and the unavoidable necessity of Jewish warfare
        against their very presence in the Land of Israel....

     Nisan is not presenting merely a theoretical analysis; he
     offers practical suggestions as well. A non-Jew must not be
     appointed to any public post in Israel. With regard to the
     "autonomy" concept of letting the Arabs have self-rule only
     under Israeli supervision, he writes: "This political
     solution is thus in the spirit of the traditional Jewish
     approach, both with regard to the Land of Israel and with
     regard to non-Jewish minorities within it."

     If Canada, of which he was formerly a citizen, treated Dr.
     Nisan as a ben-noah, a member of the servant class
     with restricted rights, he would have protested it as
     deplorable discrimination, but he sees no contradiction in
     the Jews, as the chosen people, having a license to treat
     non-Jews in just this way. This is tribal morality given
     theological justification. I do not know how many Jews share
     his belief, but the publication of the article in a leading
     Zionist periodical is cause for grave concern.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 16:38:56 PDT 1996
Article: 73898 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 19:41:16 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
> 
>> A total lack of logic here. Europeans displaced American Indians from their
>> homes in North America. Jews displaced Palestinians from their home in
>> Palestine. Both American Indians and Palestinians understandably resisted the
>> violation of their human rights.
>
>Absurd.
>
>Jews came home to their homeland.   Palestine Arabs never had any claim 
>to the land, soverignty over it, or even a right to it, coming, as most 
>did, as immigrants from other Arab regions.

There are very few sane and rational people around the world who believe that
any group has a right to return to a place they once lived 2000 years previously
and disrupt the lives of the current occupants.

Western governments supported Zionism not because they believed this outlandish
claim, but for the most part from an anti-Semitic or imperialist agenda. The
Nazis, for instance, were enthusiastic Zionists (see Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann
in Jerusalem" for further details.)

There have been numerous books written in recent years about the massive
violations of human rights that occurred in the founding of Israel. Benny
Morris's history is probably the best of the lot.

Imagine if Israel had tried to establish by force a state in one-half of any of
the fifty states of the U.S. How would Americans have reacted? With massive
violence. From the Arab standpoint, the creation of Israel was an attempt by the
West to foist off its problems or guilt on an innocent third party. From their
standpoint, Zionism was the aggressor and they were fighting in self-defense.
It's a perfectly reasonable position.

Imagine what bloody chaos the world would be thrown into if every group that
once lived in a territory 2,000 years ago sought now to reclaim it by military
force.

Israel is now an established fact, despite these troublesome questions. For the
most part, the world is prepared to support it, unless it becomes too great a
burden or problem.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 18:24:29 PDT 1996
Article: 53733 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Mordechai Nisan)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:48:22 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 153
Message-ID: <31a9cc09.236472352@news.cybercom.net>
References: <31a74fe0.73591153@news.cybercom.net> <31A9C64D.17BD@one.net>
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>>      Thus the concept of the "Chosen People" as an aristocracy
>>      provides sanction for the unequal and discriminatory
>>      treatment of non-Jews, who are inferior. Nisan does not
>>      consider the possibility that other nations might also claim
>>      aristocratic status for themselves.
>
>Absurd.
>
>The Jewish view is that being "chosen" creates a responsibility to 
>behave better, to act more morally, etc.
>
>There is no place in that for treatment of any other people in a harmful 
>or negative manner.  On the contrary Jews are commanded to treat the 
>guest, the visitor, among them as they treat each other.
>
>Your igfnorance of Jewish law and tradition, Wayne (no fault of yours) 
>is leading you to make assumptions based on snippets of information here 
>and there, and that's leading you to laughable conclusions.

Roger,

You just gave a classic illustration of your inability to deal with facts and
texts.

You failed to respond to Yehoshafat Harkabi and you failed to respond to the
damning and well-documented remarks by Mordechai Nisan.

You are clearly in a state of denial regarding negative currents in Judaism and
Zionism. You've locked yourself into an indefensible position, and any bright
person will be able to chip away at it with the greatest of ease.

As with Avi, I think we've come to that point in the discussion where we will
have to agree to disagree. From my standpoint, you are just spinning your wheels
and evading one solid fact after another.

Wayne

P.S. Harkabi is one of the more important Jewish and Israeli thinkers of the
last few decades. He certainly towers over almost everyone in these newsgroups.
You failed to deal with the following passage, or with dozens of other passages
like it in his book.

Policy elites all around the world have read Harkabi--certainly the foreign
ministries of all the Western democracies are familiar with his thinking--which
helps account for their present attitudes towards Likud.

True believers like yourself are seriously out of touch with the rest of the
world on these matters. You don't understand how it is that Israel has become so
isolated from "the nations." And the more that people like yourself offer bogus
apologetics for the bigotry that Harkabi and others have uncovered, the deeper
the isolation into which Israel sinks. You are losing your credibility.

.qml
.book excerpt

author=Yehoshafat Harkabi
title=Israel's Fateful Hour
city=New York
publisher=Harper & Row
year=1988

excerpt=

(page=153)

     A reasoned analysis of the status of non-Jews in a Jewish
     state can be found in an article entitled "A New Approach to
     Israeli-Arab Peace" published in Kivvunim 24
     (August 1984), an official publication of the World Zionist
     Organization. The author is Mordechai Nisan, a lecturer on
     the Middle East at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. According
     to Dr. Nisan, Jews are permitted to discriminate against
     foreigners in a way that Jews would angrily denounce were it
     done to them. What is permissible to us is forbidden to
     others:

        While it is true that Jews are a particular people, they
        nonetheless are designated as a "light unto the nations."
        This function is imposed on the Jews who strive to be a
        living aristocracy among the nations, a nation that has
        deeper historical roots, greater spiritual obligations,
        higher moral standards, and more powerful intellectual
        capacities than others. This vision, which diverges from
        the widely accepted egalitarian approach, is not at all
        based on an arbitrary hostility towards non-Jews, but
        rather on a fundamental existential understanding of the
        quality of Jewish peoplehood.

     Thus the concept of the "Chosen People" as an aristocracy
     provides sanction for the unequal and discriminatory
     treatment of non-Jews, who are inferior. Nisan does not
     consider the possibility that other nations might also claim
     aristocratic status for themselves.

     Nisan continues in a passage that must be presented in its
     entirety to register the tribalism of this mindset:

        The Land was the special divinely granted territorial
        promise to Abraham and his seed.... Non-Jews, without a
        role on the highest plane of religious endeavor, are thus
        without a role on the plane of public activity. The
        linkage of politics and religion in the Jewish experience
        is supported by the equally tight connection between
        kinship and politics. Those of "the tribe" are

(page=154)

        the sole bearers of authority to determine national
        affairs in the Land of Israel....

        The category of ben-noah [son of Noah] defines
        the non-Jew who has accepted the seven Noachide laws. In
        return for being permitted to live in the country of
        sacred history and religious purpose, the
        ben-noah must accept to pay a tax and to suffer
        the humiliation of servitude (see Deut. 20:11).
        Maimonides, in his legal code on the Laws of Kings,
        states explicitly that he be "held down and not raise his
        head against Jews." Non-Jews must not be appointed to any
        office or position of power over Jews. If they refuse to
        live a life of inferiority, then this will signal
        rebellion and the unavoidable necessity of Jewish warfare
        against their very presence in the Land of Israel....

     Nisan is not presenting merely a theoretical analysis; he
     offers practical suggestions as well. A non-Jew must not be
     appointed to any public post in Israel. With regard to the
     "autonomy" concept of letting the Arabs have self-rule only
     under Israeli supervision, he writes: "This political
     solution is thus in the spirit of the traditional Jewish
     approach, both with regard to the Land of Israel and with
     regard to non-Jewish minorities within it."

     If Canada, of which he was formerly a citizen, treated Dr.
     Nisan as a ben-noah, a member of the servant class
     with restricted rights, he would have protested it as
     deplorable discrimination, but he sees no contradiction in
     the Jews, as the chosen people, having a license to treat
     non-Jews in just this way. This is tribal morality given
     theological justification. I do not know how many Jews share
     his belief, but the publication of the article in a leading
     Zionist periodical is cause for grave concern.

/qml

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 18:24:30 PDT 1996
Article: 53762 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 19:41:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <31aa025e.250383851@news.cybercom.net>
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
> 
>> A total lack of logic here. Europeans displaced American Indians from their
>> homes in North America. Jews displaced Palestinians from their home in
>> Palestine. Both American Indians and Palestinians understandably resisted the
>> violation of their human rights.
>
>Absurd.
>
>Jews came home to their homeland.   Palestine Arabs never had any claim 
>to the land, soverignty over it, or even a right to it, coming, as most 
>did, as immigrants from other Arab regions.

There are very few sane and rational people around the world who believe that
any group has a right to return to a place they once lived 2000 years previously
and disrupt the lives of the current occupants.

Western governments supported Zionism not because they believed this outlandish
claim, but for the most part from an anti-Semitic or imperialist agenda. The
Nazis, for instance, were enthusiastic Zionists (see Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann
in Jerusalem" for further details.)

There have been numerous books written in recent years about the massive
violations of human rights that occurred in the founding of Israel. Benny
Morris's history is probably the best of the lot.

Imagine if Israel had tried to establish by force a state in one-half of any of
the fifty states of the U.S. How would Americans have reacted? With massive
violence. From the Arab standpoint, the creation of Israel was an attempt by the
West to foist off its problems or guilt on an innocent third party. From their
standpoint, Zionism was the aggressor and they were fighting in self-defense.
It's a perfectly reasonable position.

Imagine what bloody chaos the world would be thrown into if every group that
once lived in a territory 2,000 years ago sought now to reclaim it by military
force.

Israel is now an established fact, despite these troublesome questions. For the
most part, the world is prepared to support it, unless it becomes too great a
burden or problem.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 18:24:31 PDT 1996
Article: 53769 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:26:15 GMT
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sun, 26 May 1996 09:34:50 GMT, wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne
>McGuire) wrote:

>>What I did was perform a full-text search in the Jewish Bible for "nations" and
>>discovered that the vast majority of occurrences were negative and insulting
>>references to non-Jewish nations. Feel free to conduct your own search at:
>>
>>     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html

>Great, so now Mcguire the researchist, is lead to a King James Version
>of the Torah in order to get the meaning of the word Goyim, gad
>wonders never cease as to the abilities of this pseudo-researchist.

Please point out which translations in the King James Bible of passages
mentioning "the nations" distort the meanings in the original text.

Every English translation of the Jewish Bible presents almost exactly the same
picture of biblical attitudes towards "the goyim"--and it is an ugly picture
indeed.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon May 27 18:24:32 PDT 1996
Article: 53770 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:36:28 GMT
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> Aaron Gross, by the way, has often made the argument that since America
>> committed genocide against the American Indians, Israel has a right to commit
>> genocide against the Palestinians.
>
>Not from what I've read of his messages, Wayne.

Roger,

I've read many thousands of Aaron Gross's messages over the years. I've archived
all my conversations with him. He has indeed repeatedly compared the Israeli
treatment of Palestinians to the European treatment of American Indians. If you
check the discussion forums at The New York Times Web site, you might even find
one his howlers in this vein still online.


>> The genocide of the American Indians is one of the most shameful acts in
>> European and American history. Americans have no desire to commit such an act
>> again, or to support any nation which would commit such an act.
>
>It is shameful because the American Indians posed no real to the 
>Americans in most cases and had no wish, policy, plan or attempt to 
>throw the White people out or to deny them their rights.
>
>Jews have had to face the threat of Arab violence, organized attempts 
>at genocide, etc. for more than a century.  Therefore the American 
>experience is not relevant to what has happened in the Mid East.

A total lack of logic here. Europeans displaced American Indians from their
homes in North America. Jews displaced Palestinians from their home in
Palestine. Both American Indians and Palestinians understandably resisted the
violation of their human rights.

The analogy is very close, with one important exception: Israel hasn't been able
to finish the job in the Mideast, and the world in general is growing reluctant
to support any further Zionist violence against Arabs and Muslims in the name of
Biblical Greater Israel.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue May 28 08:51:58 PDT 1996
Article: 73905 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the Meaning of "Goyim" (Various Evasions)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:26:15 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sun, 26 May 1996 09:34:50 GMT, wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne
>McGuire) wrote:

>>What I did was perform a full-text search in the Jewish Bible for "nations" and
>>discovered that the vast majority of occurrences were negative and insulting
>>references to non-Jewish nations. Feel free to conduct your own search at:
>>
>>     http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html

>Great, so now Mcguire the researchist, is lead to a King James Version
>of the Torah in order to get the meaning of the word Goyim, gad
>wonders never cease as to the abilities of this pseudo-researchist.

Please point out which translations in the King James Bible of passages
mentioning "the nations" distort the meanings in the original text.

Every English translation of the Jewish Bible presents almost exactly the same
picture of biblical attitudes towards "the goyim"--and it is an ugly picture
indeed.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue May 28 08:51:59 PDT 1996
Article: 73906 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Levels of Tribalism
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:36:28 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <31a9cacf.236158708@news.cybercom.net>
References: <31a4aaa2.91476798@news.cybercom.net> <4obh8e$pg9@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31A996BA.3552@one.net> <31a99f60.225038105@news.cybercom.net> <31A9C49B.48DF@one.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.israel:35150 soc.culture.jewish:53770 talk.politics.mideast:73906

Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
>> Aaron Gross, by the way, has often made the argument that since America
>> committed genocide against the American Indians, Israel has a right to commit
>> genocide against the Palestinians.
>
>Not from what I've read of his messages, Wayne.

Roger,

I've read many thousands of Aaron Gross's messages over the years. I've archived
all my conversations with him. He has indeed repeatedly compared the Israeli
treatment of Palestinians to the European treatment of American Indians. If you
check the discussion forums at The New York Times Web site, you might even find
one his howlers in this vein still online.


>> The genocide of the American Indians is one of the most shameful acts in
>> European and American history. Americans have no desire to commit such an act
>> again, or to support any nation which would commit such an act.
>
>It is shameful because the American Indians posed no real to the 
>Americans in most cases and had no wish, policy, plan or attempt to 
>throw the White people out or to deny them their rights.
>
>Jews have had to face the threat of Arab violence, organized attempts 
>at genocide, etc. for more than a century.  Therefore the American 
>experience is not relevant to what has happened in the Mid East.

A total lack of logic here. Europeans displaced American Indians from their
homes in North America. Jews displaced Palestinians from their home in
Palestine. Both American Indians and Palestinians understandably resisted the
violation of their human rights.

The analogy is very close, with one important exception: Israel hasn't been able
to finish the job in the Mideast, and the world in general is growing reluctant
to support any further Zionist violence against Arabs and Muslims in the name of
Biblical Greater Israel.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

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