The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Jan  3 12:13:17 PST 1997
Article: 90780 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luther claims to discover the Jew's Source of Interpretation
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:08:27 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>In his tract entitled "On Shem Hamphoras"  Luther wrote:
>
>"I, a damned goy, cannot understand where they have their great skill in 
>interpreting, except, perhaps, that when Judas Iscariot hung himself, his
>bladder burst and his gut split.  Perhaps the Jews had their servants there
>with golden pots and silver bowls to catch Judas's piss and other reliques.
>(As they are called).  Then they ate and drank the shit mixed with piss to
>become so sharp-eyed in interpreting the Scripture.  They see things in
>Scripture that neither Isaiah nor Matthew nor all the angels saw, and
>that we damned goys can never hope to see."
>
>COMMENT:  And today, they apparently see things in trial testimonies
>that others couldn't hope to see in two lifetimes.



I am a lover of real music and have been listening to Wagner's
"Parsifal" amongst many other works, for many years. About ten years
ago, a young American rabbi came on British television and claimed
that this music drama is "Clearly anti-Semitic" and should be banned.
Since them I have come across other Jews reiterating this, though I
cannot remember any names; it seemed a view held by quite a few Jews.
 
There was no explanation by the rabbi or any of the others of this
accusation. 

Now, I have heard many performances of "Parsifal" and the concept of
Jews has never entered my head. I know that Nietzsche walked out of
the first performance, furious with Wagner at the Christianity of the
piece. So: What did Nietzsche and I miss? Is it a crotchet or a quaver
hiding somewhere which we have overlooked? Perhaps somebody could
explain - because I am damned if I can find any connection between
this masterpiece and the Jews.



Fergus McClelland



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Jan  3 13:50:42 PST 1997
Article: 90816 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SERVING TWO MASTERS
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 11:23:33 GMT
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Several people in this group, most notably Messrs Giwer and Moran,
have discussed the problem of a citizen with dual national loyalties.
Their comments have usually been met with derision. This, of course,
is not a new worry, and not without logic, and some evidence, to
support it. 

Yesterday, (2nd January 1997), under the 30 year rule, documents were
released by the British government which shed light on this problem
with regard to Jews in 1946.

Sir Christopher Steele, (a senior Foreign Office official in Germany
at that time), wrote to London on the subject of the conflicting
loyalties of a Colonel Solomon who was on his staff.
"It is a pity that a Jew was ever appointed.
"Almost any honest Jew will admit that no Jew could be objective on
Jewish affairs. And anyone who is not objective cannot advise His
Majesty's Government reliably."
Sir Christopher was, in a manner that was analytical rather than
anti-Jewish, referring to the obvious conflict of interest of a Jew
working for the British government whilst at the same time having an
strong religious and emotional bias in favour of the creators of
a Jewish nation. Sir Christopher continued:
"I have nothing against Solomon personally, in fact by all accounts he
is a likeable man who is trying to do a good job. The trouble is that
he serves more than one master.
"He recently put forward plans for the appointment of four Jewish
liaison officers in Germany. All four were persons who had been
unmitigated nuisances for a long time."

Another document released yesterday covers a Whitehall meeting headed
by two senior MI5 officers - 'Tar' Robertson and a Mr Keller.
The meeting was told: "playing on human sympathy of relief
organisations in Europe, members of the Jewish Agency and the Zionists
have succeeded in building up an organisation which leaves hardly a
country in Europe untouched."


Fergus McClelland


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Sat Jan  4 09:44:10 PST 1997
Article: 90955 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
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Doc Tavish  wrote:

>
>Reginald Higham Cornelius McTavish (an American Brit that's glad the
>Yanks won!)
>
>Doc Tavish

I say!
You are still in a state of rebellion, so none of your laws count :-)



Fergus McClelland

P.S.
Do you think that you can persuade Elsa to give me her secret recipe
for sauerkraut? If she refuses, you can always deny her her nightly
frankfurter.
F.


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Mon Jan  6 18:17:16 PST 1997
Article: 91471 of alt.revisionism
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poor "unbalanced" Jewish gunman
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 15:00:22 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>	
>	"Israeli Wounds 6 Arabs in Hebron Rampage"
>              N.Y.Times, Jan.2, 1997
>
>	An Israeli soldier who had a history of mental problems opened
>fire on a crowded Palestinian market today ..."
>
>	Thus we have the first reports on the latest manifestation of
>religious and ethnocentric insanity to come out of th land of the
>"chosen".
>
>	This article blazing on the front page of the N.Y.Times is
>accompanied by a insert introduction to an expanded article on page 6,
>titled "Gunman in Hebron Unbalanced Loner Driven by a Mission" full
>with a photograph of the ethnocentrically insane perpetrator.


It is stated in today's (3rd January 1997) "Financial Times (UK
national newspaper) that this man was NOT a loner. 

"SECOND HEBRON SUSPECT HELD
Israeli police arrested a second man in connection with Wednesday's
shooting of seven Palestinians in the West Bank town of Hebron by an
off duty soldier. he is suspected of having helped plan the attack."


Tom Moran continued:

>	Like Yigal Amir, who shot Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995,
>he claimed religious justification. And like Dr.Baruch Goldstein, a 37
>year old physician who killed 29 Muslims in Hebron in 1994, he turned
>his hatred on Palestinians.
>
>	But he appears to have been a seriously unbalanced man ..."

In reading about all these three cases the men appear to be deeply
committed to their religion rather than "insane". Surely their acts
were logical in the circumstances, given their religious beliefs. What
difference between them and an Arab bus bomber in Israel?

There is more to this than meets the eye.




Fergus McClelland


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Tue Jan  7 16:12:30 PST 1997
Article: 91660 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luther claims to discover the Jew's Source of Interpretation
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 22:01:20 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32cd106b.4507532@news.demon.co.uk>, redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk
>(Fergus McClelland) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> I am a lover of real music and have been listening to Wagner's
>> "Parsifal" amongst many other works, for many years. About ten years
>> ago, a young American rabbi came on British television and claimed
>> that this music drama is "Clearly anti-Semitic" and should be banned.
>> Since then I have come across other Jews reiterating this, though I
>> cannot remember any names; it seemed a view held by quite a few Jews.

Mark Van Alstine
>Yes. It is. It's rather unfortunate, IMHO. I too rather enjoy Wagner's
>music. But Wagner himself was pathetic, IMHO. 

Why? The fact that someone dislikes someone/thing else doesn't make
them pathetic. After all, I am sure you dislike me - does that make
you pathetic?

Me
>> There was no explanation by the rabbi or any of the others of this
>> accusation. 

Mark Van Alstine
>Perhaps because Wagner, the man, _was_ a rabid anti-Semite? 

This does NOT explain the rabbi's comments about PARSIFAL in
particular.

Mark Van Alstine
>And Hitler
>idolized him _and_ his music because of it? 

Hitler liked potatoes, does this make potatoes retrospectively
anti-Semitic? Anyway, Parsifal was not one of Hitler's favourites,
they were Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg and Tannhauser which he found
relaxing.

>Also, btw, Wagner's
>Go"tterda"mmerung themes were particularly appealing to Hitler, who had an
>apocolyptic (and self-fulfilling) world-view.  

I assume by "themes" you mean leit motifs - rather than plot themes.
Which - specifically Gotterdammerung - motifs do you mean? 

Many of the leit motifs appear throughout Der Ring Des Niebelungen,
although they develop and are modified along the way through the four
music dramas. Some appear in fully developed form for the first time
in Gotterdammerung, such as the Gotterdammerung motif - but this is an
earlier motif which Erda sings in Das Rheingold which is inverted.
And, Hitler certainly did NOT like the Ring, which is understandable
given the nature of the story.
Incidentally, Bernstein in his West Side Story drew heavily, if not
entirely, on the Ring for his music. One example, Wagner's "Redemption
by love" theme, used by Bernstein for his song "I have a love." Was
Bernstein therefore anti-Semitic?


Me
>> Now, I have heard many performances of "Parsifal" and the concept of
>> Jews has never entered my head. 

Mark Van Alstine
>Understandable if one is not informed about Wagner's personal history. 

I AM informed, and still cannot see the connection.

Me
>> I know that Nietzsche walked out of the first performance, 
>> furious with Wagner at the Christianity of the piece. 

Mark Van Alstine
>More like Wagner's paganistic undertones and anti-Semitism. Which, btw,
>was another reason why Hitler idolized Wagner _and_ his music.  

No. Here you are merely speculating wildly and are totally wrong.
There are NO pagan undertones to Parsifal, and it WAS the Christianity
of the piece that upset Nietzsche.
To quote William Mann (a recognized authority on Wagner)::
"Nietzsche decided at once that Wagner, the prophet of the future,
freethinker and humanist, had reverted to ancestral dogma, thrown
himself at the foot of the Cross, and was now preaching chastity and
self-abnegation, in Nietzsche's terms "saying No to life.""

Another quote from the same author:

"When Wagner wrote "Parsifal" as a sermon on the virtues of
Christianity, he did so, and affirmed it, believing that the hope of a
doom-laden world would only be saved by an undogmatic, un pugnacious
ethic which everybody could share and approve in deed as well as
word."

To quote William Mann again:

"The conductor Hermann Levi from Munich had always been Wagner's
choice, though Levi was a Jew, son of a rabbi; Wagner's life-long
anti-Semitism was, he claimed during the composition of "Parsifal", a
youthful prejudice out of which he had now grown thanks to the
inspiration of Jesus of Nazareth. He nevertheless did his best to
persuade Levi to be baptised Christian before "Parsifal"."

"Parsifal" was heavily based on "Parzival" written by Wolfram von
Eschenbach in the late 12th century. Parzival is a romance of
self-perfection in knighthood, in which both the chivalric and the
spiritual receive their due. 

There are characters in the Ring who pursue wealth and power above all
else. Alberich's theft of the Rhinegold and forswearing of love to
grain it, his forging of the Ring and Tarnhelm from the gold, to gain
world domination, followed by his curse on the Ring; Mime's treachery
and cringing servility, have often been regarded as signs of Wagner
meaning them to be looked upon as dramatic representations of
Jewishness. If he DID intend them to be Jews, and based them on his
observations - could that be wrong?  Should he not write what he sees?
Can nobody ever write a biography of Robert Maxwell or Ike Solomon
without automatically being branded an evil anti-Semite?


Me
>> So: What did Nietzsche and I miss? Is it a crotchet or a quaver
>> hiding somewhere which we have overlooked? Perhaps somebody could
>> explain - because I am damned if I can find any connection between
>> this masterpiece and the Jews.

Mark Van Alstine
>See above. 

I did, and you didn't answer the question. You talk about Wagner and
NOT about Parsifal. If you don't know the answer, why bluff?



>For those interested in evidence of Mr. McClelland's anti-Semitism,

This "anti-Semitism" concept as voiced in this newsgroup is
meaningless. It seems to mean anyone who doesn't crawl to people like
Mark Van Alstine. What am I supposed to do, drop to my knees and crave
forgiveness? What he hopes to gain from this laughable accusation is
unknown. The phrase has been devalued, if indeed it ever had any
value. There is now no difference between someone who wants to kill
every Jew in the world and someone who dislikes some parts of Judaism,
some Jews and or some acts of Israel. There is no point in saying it
anymore, it is taken as read. But I am sure that won't stop you.
Perhaps you think that people will look at the accused in horror: "Oh
NO! He is an anti-Semite!" "Get thee behind me anti-Semite!!!!"
Really, they will laugh and make up their own minds. 
What you really mean in your sneaky way is "Don't believe a word he
says, because he is an anti-Semite." That way, you won't have to argue
the point at issue. However, everyone can see that it is just an
avoidance technique. 


>Holocaust denial, 

Please define this? I think you mean not believing EVERYTHING you say
without question. It is not possible to believe ALL the Holocaust
stories - like the electrocution by a special means (inferring that it
defies physics and is magical) and the vaporization - again special,
and the fuel less burning of bodies. Then we have the tearing breasts
off, the tearing babies apart by hand and the ludicrous rates of
cremation which to this day cannot be achieved in such crematoria. I
do not "Deny" I just don't BELIEVE dogma without evidence or
rationality to support it.

>and intellectual dishonesty please visit:

What on earth is "Intellectual dishonesty"? I understand the two words
but the concept escapes me. I have often noticed you cheating in
arguments - is this the sort of thing you mean? Please show me where I
have done this.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/mcclelland.fergus

Referring anybody to this shoddy outfit is absurd. You are talking
about a group which is committed to one side of a debate, of which you
are part. Impartiality is not going to be the theme of a group called
Nizkor, (hebrew) run mainly by Jews and backed by Jews. It will be a
bit Jewish - anti-Gentile!

Anyway, the other side of Anti-Jew is Pro-Jew - anti-Goy. 
Don't believe Mark Van Alstine, he is a pro-Jew, anti-Goy and
therefore committed religiously to everything said by Jews in support
of every part of the Holocaust story. It is a prejudice thing. He
"believes", and believers are not truth seekers.


For proof of Mark Van Alstine's obsession with male genitalia,
masturbation and faecal matter, please see the way he has argued as
listed at Dejanews, or maybe I will post a bunch of examples.


Fergus McClelland

>
>Mark












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