The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Oct  4 17:46:24 PDT 1996
Article: 71649 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: OBSERVATIONS 
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 14:33:47 GMT
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I have been reading this newsgroup for about four months.
On the one side we have people reporting IMT eyewitness claims which
are impossible, cremation rates which are impossible, disposal rates
of ash which are impossible.
On the other hand we have screaming fanatics who claim that the
so-called  "deniers"  (a very loaded term, I prefer "analytical truth
seekers"), are mad, bad and wrong, shoutiing personal abuse, and
following that up with MORE eyewitness reports.

Name calling will not win the argument.

All my life I have "believed", (merely by accepting without thought)
that about 6 million people, mainly Jews, were gassed, shot and
tortured to death as a deliberate German policy in the War. 
Now, it appears to be that 12 million, or is that 11 million, died of
whom "At least 6 million" as Spielberg put at the End of Schindler's
List, were Jews. 
So the questions come to mind. 
How?  Where? When? 
Think of the logistics of such figures. It's awesome. In Britain, we
have a supposed danger from BSE infected cattle. It is proposed to
kill and incinerate 180,000 of the animals. Guess what? There is a
logistical problem. There are not enough slaughter houses, and the
cremation is a formidable problem. It is thought by the Ministry of
Agriculture Fisheries and Food that it wil take up to three years to
dispose of the cattle. This, in a modern country, with no secrecy,
lots of money, no war, no disruptions to the flow of death and the
very latest equipment to be used.  Would you think it reasonable to
suppose that a cow would equal four or five people? If so, that means
180,000 X 4 = 720,000 human equivalents. The cows will not attempt to
escape, or attack their captors. In other words, docile, the perfect
prey. Remember, the slaughter of cattle happens every day, always has.
So, there is no need for new killing techniques, new types of
disposal. Yet, it will still take a modern country 3 YEARS!! 
In 1967 there was an outbreak of Foot and Mouth disease in the British
Midlands. At every infected farm, the cattle were killed and
incinerated on the spot. There were "only" a few thousand cattle
affected, but the lime pits were of enormous proportions, as were the
bonfires. It was not thought necessary to transport cattle from one
part of the country to another for slaughter and disposal.  Yes, the
pits locations are known to this day, and I am sure that farmers would
be willing for  "deniers" to take core samples from these areas. It is
next to impossible to "lose" a burial pit within half a century -
otherwise, what would happen to the science of archeology (in
particular the technique of finding "worked" land by aerial
photography)?  Yet, the pits of the "death camps" are  not accurately
located. Why? 
The whole story of the Holocaust is full of holes. It would be easy to
accept that a large number of Jews, let's say several hundred
thousand, were killed by the most diabolical methods by the Germans.
But no, we're not allowed to believe that. We have a huge number
thrust onto us time after time with nothing sensible, nothing
scientific to back it up. Who does this? Those with an interest in the
myth continuing. The reality is bad. The Myth is disgusting. So come
on chaps, you've been caught out, do the decent thing. Time to own up
and admit that you are wrong. After that, you can start to address the
real horror of what happened to ALL those who were killed by the
Germans and the Russians. Respect the real and tragically dead. Don't
use them in a sick advertising campaign on behalf of Jews alone.
Otherwise, the rubber band will snap on your toy aeroplane, and it
will crash badly.

As German is the second favourite language of this group, I think it
appropriate to quote Erda, the all-wise, all-knowing Earth Mother  in
Wagner's Das Rheingold, where she warns Wotan:
"Hore! Hore! Hore!
Alles was ist, endet!
Ein dust'rer Tag dammert den Gottern: dir rat' ich, meide den ring!
Ich warnte dich; 
du weisst genug: 
sinn' in sorg' und furcht!"

Fergus McClelland

P.S.
I just KNOW that I will now get some "Seig Heil's", some  "Nazi-boy's"
some "Bigot's" and some "anti-semite's" thrown at me. I think it only
fair to let you know in advance that I laugh at such school playground
behaviour which merely shows the paucity of thought and the
desparation of those flinging such silly calumnies, none of which are
accurately applied in this case. 
 


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Mon Oct  7 07:32:43 PDT 1996
Article: 72278 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:45:05 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:

ATTENTION!!! 
HEAVILY EDITED BY DANIEL KEREN TO SUIT HIS OWN PURPOSES THOUGH AT NO
POINT DOES HE INSERT A  OR OTHER EDITING MARK

>
># On the one side we have people reporting IMT eyewitness
># claims which are impossible, 
>
>Such as?

Oh really Mr Keren, how can you hope to get away with such a ploy?
Being a regular reader and poster in this group, how can you pretend
not to know what I am talking about? 
For example, as you pretend not to know, may I refer you to the
repeated posting of Ada Lichtmann's testimony at the Demjanjuk trial.
In her testimony, she speaks of the sound of the laughter of fighter
pilots who were machine-gunning the boarded up train cattle car in
which she was travelling, amongst other things. I would venture to
suggest that it would not be possible for her to hear their laughter,
nor even see their faces. To expand, (as you seem to be in naive and
stupid mode at present).
1. The sound of a fighter plane engine is rather louder than that of a
person laughing.
2. The sound of machine guns is louder than human laughter.
3. The cattle car in which Miss Lichtmann was travelling  was boarded
up, reducing any chance of reception of the higher frequencies of the
human voice.
4. The dying, who were close to the witness, were screaming. This
would tend to mask the sound of laughter from a pilot who was at least
50 or 60 feet away from Miss Lichtmann.
5. The pilot might have been wearing an oxygen mask - which would have
further reduced any escaping sound.
6. The cockpit of the fighter plane would probably have been closed -
further reducing the escape of the sound of laughter.
7. Mask, cockpit, distance and the boarding of the cattle car would
all have made it impossible for Ada Lichtmann to see a laughing
pilot's face.

We then have to consider the praticality of loading Jews onto a train
and setting it in motion just so that pilots could shoot at them
through boarding. We also have to consider the rationality of such an
act. How many trains would you wear out? All that wasted effort - when
all you had to do was take the poor bastards to the nearest quarry and
gas/shoot/club them to death? What a waste of fighter planes - surely
needed elsewhere! What a waste of a pilot - or were there several?
What a waste of ammunition! What a ridiculous tale! 
Later in the same testimny, we hear of people being taken off the
train and being forced to dance. Not impossible I grant you, but so
impractical. No wonder they lost the war, they were spending all their
time shooting up their own trains and watching Jews dancing!
Come on Mr Keren - say that everything Ada Lichmann said has to be
true - I dare you.
Next we have to think of the other oft reposted testimony in which
Gustav Wagner is said to have torn babies apart with his bare hands. A
bear could do it with its hands, but not a normal human.
Then the conveyor belts with people lying on them as they are
transported into an electrocution chamber... 
Then the chambers with walls the come in and squash the victims...
Then the Iron plate coming down onto a victims head to kill him...
Then the steaming chambers...
Need I really go on - when you have been reading the group as much as
I have - perhaps even more so? Do you claim that all the above are
true? If so, PROVE IT! It is YOUR claim, so you have to back it up
with irrefutable evidence. The more wild the tale, the more SOLID
evidence is needed.


># cremation rates which are impossible, 
>
>Such as?

Here you do it again - display a feigned ignorance. You're not fooling
anyone you know!

IMPOSSIBLE RATES EXPLAINED FOR DANIEL KEREN.

> "According to expert evidence by Dr. Roman Dawidowski, professor at the Academy of Mining and
>Metallurgy in Cracow, the average number of bodies cremated within
>twenty-four hours in the thirty ovens of the two largest crematoria was
>about five thousand. The figure of three thousand could be reached in
>smaller Crematories IV and V. This total allows a break of three hours in
>every twenty-four hour period to allow for deslagging the generators and
>because of other, smaller stoppages caused by constant use. Similar
>numbers wer egiven as evidence by eywitness Sonderkommando members Henryk
>Tauber and Alter Feinsilber, and also by Stanislaw Kankowski. KL-PMO,
>p.134." (_Death Dealer_, p.45fn.) 

Assuming the thirty ovens were used equally; we have 30 ovens burning
5000 bodies in 21 hours. We will ignore any other breaks in the
burning time.
5000 / 30 = 166.66r per oven. 
We'll call it 166 bodies consumed by each oven in 21 hours.
166 / 21 = 7.9 bodies, per oven, per 60 minutes.
This gives us:
60 / 7.9 = 7.594936708 minutes per body.
This makes no allowance for putting in bodies or taking out remains,
nor any cooling time necessary to prevent self-ignition of bodies on
their way in. 
To cremate a body at this speed, by today's gas or oil fired methods
is impossible, by a factor of at least ten. Don't believe me, check
with your local crematorium. To claim that this was done by the
Germans with their inferior equipment (by today's standards) is
downright ludicrous.
If I am in error - using your "eyewitness statement" for my starting
point, then use solid facts to prove me wrong.

>
># disposal rates of ash which are impossible.
>
>What?

Really Mr Keren, this is getting laughable. I refer you to the amount
of ash, 6 or 7 pound weight per body, disposed of in Treblinka, a
small site. If there were 1000,000 people cremated there, whether in
pits or ovens, then there would have to be at least 6000,000 pounds of
ash. That is a lot of volume of ash to be disposed of. This has been
adequately detailed in another of the postings which you seem to have
missed.

>
># Think of the logistics of such figures. It's awesome.
># In Britain, we have a supposed danger from BSE infected 
># cattle. It is proposed to kill and incinerate 180,000 of 
># the animals. Guess what? There is a logistical problem.
>
>There was no problem in burning about 250,000 cows during the
>hoof-and-mouth epidemic in Britain in the 1960's. Not to
>mention that a cow weighs much more than a human.

I DID mention that a cow weighs much more than a human being Mr Keren.
As you must know if you read the whole of my posting. You are cheating
here Mr Keren. You have removed my reference to the Foot and Mouth
outbreak of 1967 from my posting. Why did you do that I wonder? Might
it be to mislead?
I continued:
... There are not enough slaughter houses, and the cremation is a
formidable problem. It is thought by the Ministry of Agriculture
Fisheries and Food that it wil take up to three years to dispose of
the cattle. This, in a modern country, with no secrecy, lots of money,
no war, no disruptions to the flow of death and the very latest
equipment to be used.  Would you think it reasonable to suppose that a
cow would equal four or five people? If so, that means 180,000 X 4 =
720,000 human equivalents. 

There you are Mr Keren, my reference to the weight of a cow, which you
removed, is now restored.

>
># The reality is bad. The Myth is disgusting.
>
>Yes, indeed, the myth spread by a tiny number of crazed Nazis - 
>namely, that the Holocaust never took place - is disgusting.

I'm sorry Mr Keren, but the Myth to which you refer, is not the one of
which I was speaking. But you are aware of that. I suppose that there
are people, crazed, Nazi or whatever who say that nobody died in the
Second World War. I don't think that there are many of them, and,
indeed, have never come across any. I recently spoke to an Irish
friend, to prove to myself a point that was made in this group. I
asked him how may Jews were killed in the War. 
"About 6 or 8 million" he replied. I then asked him how many Irish
were killed.
"Oh Jesus, more than that!"
After I stopped laughing I asked him why he didn't know the Irish
figure but had a number for the Jews.
"'Cos the Jews have got big mouths." was his reply. 
And no, he is NOT an anti-Jew, and indeed I don't think the Irish in
general are anti-Jewish. Apparently, there are very few there, as I
think is often the case in poor countries, and this friend of mine has
rarely even met one.

The Holocaust [TM] was the myth of which I was speaking. I do not deny
that many Jews died in the War, along with a great many others. I have
used the [TM] after Holocaust because I dislike the Holocaust
Industry. Soon we will be finding toy ovens in our shops. When will
the commercializion stop? In Britain we suffered  many holocausts, (in
the true sense of the word), during the Battle of Britain when we were
heavily bombed. People were burned and blasted to death all over the
country. They were fighting against Germany and, IF there was a
deliberate policy to exterminate all Jews, then the British were
instrumental in saving all the Jews who survived the War. 

This leads me to another point. When are the Jews going to pay the
British for saving them? How much money are "The Jews" going to pay
back for our suffering? We borrowed heavily from America to be able to
fight the War and paid back afterwards. We then supplied Palestine to
the Jews, at further enormous cost to ourselves. Now it OUR turn to
demand some money. All that "Nazi-Jewish gold" in Switzerland should
immediately be given to Britain, and Isreal should pay an annual fee
in gratitude for its very existence. I shall leave it to the Americans
to make their own statement of claim against Isreal, and Jews in
general.



"Alles was ist endet"


Fergus McClelland



>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Tue Oct  8 08:32:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72471 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:36:12 GMT
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In article , Daniel Keren 
 writes
>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>
># For example, as you pretend not to know, may I refer you to the
># repeated posting of Ada Lichtmann's testimony at the Demjanjuk trial.
># In her testimony, she speaks of the sound of the laughter of fighter
># pilots who were machine-gunning the boarded up train cattle car in
># which she was travelling, amongst other things. I would venture to
># suggest that it would not be possible for her to hear their laughter,
># nor even see their faces. To expand, (as you seem to be in naive and
># stupid mode at present).
># 1. The sound of a fighter plane engine is rather louder than that
># of a person laughing.
>
>The sound of a strong engine is loud indeed. However, sit in
>a car with a strong engine, rev it up, and scream. Will someone
>standing by hear you scream?
>
Not a fair analogy. I sit in a high performance sports car, with the 
windows closed, with not much in the way of a silencer, and rev up the

engine. I then LAUGH. Will someone standing at least fifty or sixty
feet 
away, inside a wooden box, together with many loudly screaming dying 
people, hear the sound of my laugh as the car roars past. Let us 
remember that the train/box is moving as well - adding to the general 
noise. I MAY be wearing a mask.



># 2. The sound of machine guns is louder than human laughter.
>
>Didn't she explicitly say that she heard them laugh when they
>were not shooting?
>
What as in "Ho ho ho!" laughed father Christmas? This is getting 
absolutely absurd. How far are you going to stretch this tale? We are 
long past the point of credulity or rational debate. Did they stop the

planes close to the train and have a hovering laugh?



># 3. The cattle car in which Miss Lichtmann was travelling  was boarded
># up, reducing any chance of reception of the higher frequencies of the
># human voice.
>
>Eh? 

What the hell do you mean by this "Eh"? I presume that it means you do

not understand what I was saying, or it was a glib avoidance
technique. 
Let us assume the former. The higher the frequency of a sound, the
more 
easily it is attenuated. You will have to research the frequency 
response of the human ear for yourself, but I think you get the
general 
idea. I suggest you start by standing in a cattle car, get a friend to

board it up and make laughing noises outside. Then get someone else to

stand next to you and scream into your ear. Perhaps someone else to 
machine gun the cattle car - though not too close to where you are 
standing inside.

>
># 4. The dying, who were close to the witness, were screaming. This
># would tend to mask the sound of laughter from a pilot who was at least
># 50 or 60 feet away from Miss Lichtmann.
>
>Has it occurred to you that people can hear and identify many
>sounds at the same time, or during a very short time?

Yes. Miss Lichtmann, being surrounded by the dead and dying, waiting
for 
the next bullet to come through the wooden panneling and kill her, was

so little disturbed, and thinking so clearly that she was able ponder 
external sounds, rather than thinking about getting as low as possible

and getting as many bodies around her for protection as possible. What
a 
woman, must be Jewish.

>
># 5. The pilot might have been wearing an oxygen mask - which would
># have further reduced any escaping sound.
>
>At such a low height, he would have to wear an oxygen mask? What is
>this rubbish?

I did NOT say HAVE to be wearing a mask. Look back two sentences!

Mr Keren, you may be unaware that ME109's, Stukas and Focke Wolfe 190D

pilots tended to wear a leather mask which included an oxygen supply
and 
their radio microphone. Most pilots did. Most pilots do. Then, if the 
pilot had to speak to someone on the radio he could. Also, he could 
ascend to great height without running out of air. To be fair, perhaps

this was a special low level mission and he knew for certain that he 
would not have to gain height rapidly or use his radio.


># 6. The cockpit of the fighter plane would probably have been closed -
># further reducing the escape of the sound of laughter.
>
>And if the pilot opened it?


Of course. FLying toward - or is it away? from the train, he opened
his 
cockpit to have a quick laugh. At 200 miles per hour? Gasp! Gasp!.
Maybe 
he hovered? Slipsteam Mr Keren? Doppler effect Mr Keren?



>What you did was present testimony which may be false. I am not
>sure. People in such a situation - being shot at - are, possibly,
>not the most accurate witnesses.

I will not argue with you here. I have no idea what happened on the 
train - neither do you. If Miss Lichtmann was on a train which was
shot 
up - perhaps by the allies - she would, to say the least, be upset.
But 
to take her words as gospel is dangerous and silly.


> Then, you switch to the typical
>"revisionist" rubbish of "since this testimony is false, the
>Holocaust is a hoax". 
So, you say that this "evidence" is "rubbish"?  This is just one
example 
out of many, mentioned only because you asked for it. What about the 
tearing babies up with bare hands stuff? 
Anyway, how dare you put words into my mouth? I have not "switched" to

anything. What do you mean by "the Holocaust is a hoax?" I have a head

full of "don't know's" and suspicions. I feel that many Jews were 
deliberately killed by many Germans just because they were Jewish.
It's 
the numbers and the methods I find myself doubting. You read my first 
posting in this thread, so you are twisting my words.


>So, since we have "testimony" about 
>Dresden's bombing which is obviously insane, we can, by the
>same "logic", decide that the city was never bombed.

Did I say that? No. But then, nobody is trying to claim that the
bombing 
of Dresden was a "race crime" and that the world has got to feel
guilty 
about it and pay for it ad infinitum with compounded interest.


># Later in the same testimony, we hear of people being taken off the
># train and being forced to dance. Not impossible I grant you, but so
># impractical. 
>
>The Nazis did practice this kind of "fun". There are some rather
>well-known photos, of German soldiers brutalizing Jews (kicking
>them, cutting their beards). 


But they made the trains run on time! Surely, if they kept stopping
them 
for a disco and a short back and sides, they would have been late 
arriving at the platform. 
I'm sure that the Germans did "brutalize" Jews and many others, though
a 
beard cutting would not mean much to me. But then, I don't believe
that 
I would be defiled by having my beard touched by a member of another 
race or religion as would an orthodox Jew. I do not believe that all 
other races/religions are "unclean" compared with me. As I said
before, 
I am not what you would call a racist.


># This gives us:
># 60 / 7.9 = 7.594936708 minutes per body.
>
>But a few corpses (usually 3) were cremated in the same muffle.
>No big problem; this is not standard procedure, out of obvious
>reasons (respect for the dead, the need to collect the ashes of
>each separate corpse), but these were not factors in Birkneau.
>Moreover, there was a high percentage of children and infants
>among the victims, and their corpses occupy much less space.
>
So, they were mostly little bodies eh? Why was that? What percentage 
please were half-adult sized? You must know. And, of course, to cook
one 
chicken that weighs six pounds will take less time than to cook two.
You 
have to overcome a difference, as stated by cremation experts, of a 
factor of ten. That is when using a modern oven, gas-fired, burning at

2,200 degrees instead of coke fired and at 900 degrees.



>These figures are supported by Nazi documents.

Please let us have sight of them.

>But perhaps the best refutation of this particular piece of
>"revisionist" rubbish is the fact that the Germans burned numerous
>corpses of people who died in Dresden, in rather the same
>method they burned corpses in some of the camps. I have
>posted to Nizkor's site a photo of corpses being burned 
>in that manner; one has to assume that, next, "revisionists"
>will claim that Jews and "Aryans" don't burn in the same way?
>
># Really Mr Keren, this is getting laughable. I refer you to the amount
># of ash, 6 or 7 pound weight per body, disposed of in Treblinka, a
># small site. If there were 1000,000 people cremated there, whether in
># pits or ovens, then there would have to be at least 6000,000 pounds of
># ash. That is a lot of volume of ash to be disposed of.
>
>Rubbish, plain and simple. In terms of volume, relative to the
>volume of earth in which the ashes were discarded, it's tiny.
>
Why do you answer so many things with the exclamation "Rubbish?" Your 
saying that does not make it so. We are talking about a 40 acre site
and 
many tons of ash.


>You obviously cannot handle basic arithmetic. 

Please show the correct calculations, to show me where I have gone 
wrong. Don't just accuse me - show me. I will admit to being wrong if 
you prove me to be so. 

>Reminds me of
>another "leading revisionist" in this group.

Please, don't be shy, tell us who you mean? By the way, I don't think 
you are accurate in calling me a "leading revisionist". As I said 
before, I would like to think of myself as an analytical truth seeker 
rather than any title you attempt to foist on me.


>Moreover, ashes and human remains *were* found, mixed with earth,
>up to a depth of 7.5 meters in Treblinka.
>

That is very deep. Over twenty feet! That is as high as my house 
guttering. What did they dig with I wonder? What did they do with the 
soil that was replaced by the ash? If the very bottom of the pit was
at 
twenty feet, and they put in ten feet of ash, you will have ten feet
of 
soil left over. Or are you, again, going to claim that I do not 
understand basic arithmetic. I say that 20 - 10 = 10. Please tell me 
where I am going wrong. By the way, dug soil occupies a far greater 
volume than it does in the ground, i.e., it becomes decompressed. 


>Re the burning of the cows: just tell us how many cows were
>burned after the hoof-and-mouth epidemic of the 1960's, and
>how much time it took
>

The relevant ministry is closed for the day, I will get the exact 
figures and let you know. But, just this once. I am not going to make
a 
habit of doing your research for you.

Now, what about the money that I consider you, if you are a Jew, owe
to 
this country for the war and Israel? I see that you have neatly side-
stepped that issue. My turn to say GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!


Alles was ist endet.

>-Danny Keren.
>


-- 


Fergus McClelland



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Tue Oct  8 12:55:04 PDT 1996
Article: 72671 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:31:55 GMT
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To answer Daniel Keren's question about the Foot and Mouth outbreak of
1967-8, to wit:

>Re the burning of the cows: just tell us how many cows were
>burned after the hoof-and-mouth epidemic of the 1960's, and
>how much time it took
>
I today, as promised, made some 'phone calls.

First, from the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food, who
transferred me to their Animal Health Disease Control Department.

The deaths were as follows:

Cattle	 214,900
Sheep 	108,835
Pigs 	118526
Goats	       57

All the animals were slaughtered and incinerated on the farms where
they were found and the partially burned remains were buried in
enormous pits - again, at the same farms. The incineration was
difficult, due to the fact that the animals were piled high and soaked
in petrol. The amount of fuel used was great. I was not able to find
someone who was involved in the culling at the time, but the Chief
Veterinary Officer confirmed all the above. 

There was an outbreak of F & M Virus on the Isle of Wight - a small
island just off the coast of southern England in 1989. It was thought
that the virus had blown over from Brittany in France. Again,
inefficient burning on site was used, and again, burial was at the
same place.

I received a return call from another man in the Ministry, with
further information, this time about the current disposal of cattle
due to the recent Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis outbreak.

Slaughtering of cattle over 30 months old started on 2nd May this year
and so far 600,000 animals have been slaughtered. However, they have
NOT all been disposed of, as there are not enough incinerators to do
the job. Many have been put into cold storage and others have been
rendered down to meat, bone meal and tallow. 24,000 to 25,000 are
being killed per week. There are a large number of storehouses all
over the country where the remains are being kept. The Ministry has
had to open a large number of new departments to deal with the
problem. Farmers, who have been compensated based on the animals being
killed last May, are now demanding money for winter feed for them as
there will have to pay for it. 

There are eight rendering plants for breaking the animals down to the
three component mixtures mentioned above. Put very simply, they use a
giant corkscrew for breaking up followed by pressure cooking and
separation of the remains. Because of the huge number involved,
enquiries are being made into burning in power stations, though this
has not yet been tried.


DISPOSAL
I then spoke to LASSA, the Licensed Animal Slaughterers and Salvage
Association, who liaise with the slaughter houses, rendering plants
and crematoria. The principle, and usual, job of these plants is the
disposal of animals of all sizes who are injured beyond help .
Currently, obviously, they are heavily involved with the disposal of
the cattle, and have been contracted to deal with it by the Ministry.

The cattle are burned in very large and complex incinerators. The
first of these machines was built six or seven years ago and they are
truly "state of the art". They are called: Animal Remains
Incinerators, and come in two types and various sizes, usually
gas-fired. At all stages, all emissions and temparature is monitored.
This is not only to help the environment, it is also to ensure that
the machine works at peak efficiency and doesn't get damaged.

Rotary Kiln Incinerators.
Depending on the size and weight of the carcass, the machines average
12 carcasses per day. The quoted rate is 350 Kilogrammes (158.75 LBS -
for UK readers, 11.34 stone) per hour - though there are a few ovens
capable of burning up to 950 ( kilogrammes per hour.  There are two
main sections to a Rotary Kiln Incinerator; firstly, a very slowly
rotating cylinder, at 850 degrees Centigrade into which the carcass is
fed. As the load burns, it slowly moves to the back, where it passes
into a straight chamber which is at 1000 degrees Centigrade. The oven
is able to run for 24 hours per day, except for a de-ashing period,
which can be a cold de-ash, when the machine is cooled first, or a hot
de-ash. If an operator were to feed 4 carcasses in at 6.00 in the
morning, he would be able to ADD a further 2 or 3 four hours later. 

Flat Bed Incinerators.
These ovens are truly enormous, and have an "agitated hearth" which is
the "floor" of the oven on which the load lies. This agitation serves
the same purpose as the rotation of the other type of incinerator,
that is, to cause the load to be fully consumed all the way down to
ash. Were it not for the agitation or the rotation there would be
large pieces left over.

Both types of oven have to be taken out of service every now and then
for relining with refractory cement. It is usually about once a year,
but, this depends on the operator, some will have to be done sooner.
The oven is allowed to cool for 2 days and then re-lined. A further 8
days have to elapse for it to set and cure.

Neither type of incinerator can cope with bone meal. As there are no
fats or tallow in bone meal, all that happens is that the "block" of
bone meal becomes charred on the outside and refuses to burn further.
There are only two ovens in this country which can burn bone meal;
they run at much higher temperatures, and it has to be broken up
first.

In 1989, there was a herd of pigs which had to be destroyed and an
attempt was made to dispose of them in the old way, as the new ovens
were not in operation at the time. They were slaughtered at a quarry
and tyres and vast quantities of fuel were put on them. The stench was
appalling and the burning very slow and inefficient. Finally, they
were buried, partially burnt, in a landfill site. It was necessary to
give up the attempt to burn the pigs as it was taking too long.

Remember, these ovens are very, very, recent and nothing like them
could have been built even ten years ago, let alone fifty. 

So, 158.75 LBS per hour would equal one average human adult. Remember,
fatter people take less time to burn than thin.

I am sure that there are similar incineration companies in America who
will verify the information that I have obtained.
Go to it Mr Keren, the ball is now in your court.



Fergus McClelland










. 














From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Tue Oct  8 12:55:05 PDT 1996
Article: 72691 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:45:30 GMT
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CORRECTION

350 kilogrammes is equal to 771.6 LBS, (55 stone) so would equal about
5 average humam adults. Sorry for the mistake. 


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Wed Oct  9 13:25:29 PDT 1996
Article: 72900 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:27:18 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	
>Mr. McClelland,
>
>	You don't have to spend too much time with Mr.Keren. He'll still
>be out here even after the likes of the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal
>Center are compelled to admit the Holocaust story is a lie.
>	He is having trouble though. It is evident in that he has to sign
>off all the time with the "Nazi" word or some other slogan.
>	
>										Tom Moran

Dear Mr Moran,

Thank you for the advice. I realise that you have been observing the
Kerens of this world for far longer than I have and appreciate your
opinion. However, I felt the need to keep responding to him so that I
could know - from my own experience - just what lengths he will go to
to uphold his belief. 
So, once he had decided to oppose what I had written, asking for
specific instances, I was happy to give them. At no point did I lie or
exaggerate as that would have defeated the purpose of the experiment.
He was certainly true to the type that I have observed in this group.
At no time was he willing to accept that anything written by one of
his hallowed "eye witnesses" could be deliberately wrong, twisted or
mistaken.

So, in the case of Ada Lichtmann we had Mr Keren postulating that a
fighter pilot would not be wearing a mask, would open his cockpit,
would take a second flight over a moving train, which he had shot up,
knowing it was one of his sides trains and moving under military
orders, just so that he could laugh loudly enough to be almost
miraculously heard by Miss Lichtmann, who was surrounded by screaming
people.  I remember that in the First World War, when planes did not
have cockpit canopies, pilot and co-pilot had to communicate by hand
signals, and they were only a few feet apart.. This was with far
quieter engines that WWII fighters. Do you think that I am being
illogical if I think this testimony is a bit tainted by time and
emotion? Mr Keren, seems to think it is all very likely. Why do you
think that is? I would put it to you that for someone to believe such
a tale they would have to be either emotionally committed to the
Holocaust [TM] story, or behaving like a person who has just had news
of the death of a loved one and refuses to accept the truth. What do
you think? If it be the latter case, shouldn't we pity him? After all,
if this is the case, he has spent a large part of his life grieving
for people needlessly. It would be painful, I think, for him to accept
that he had been wrong, and had wasted so many tears.

Did you notice that in a follow-up he said that the baby dismembering
by Gustav Wagner was probably merely figurative. I'm sorry, Mr Moran,
but I can't really think that he is serious here - do you? After all,
what is figurative about ripping arms off babies? Either it was done,
or it was not - surely? If it WAS in some way figurative, how
disgusting a concept. How many other Holo-tales are equally
"figurative" and all the more disgusting for being such? Might the 6
million be in this category? Certainly, the number has been used since
1911. This is the trouble when people are not accurate, the
imagination runs riot. 

His comments about stuffing many bodies into an oven at once was so
ridiculous that there is no need to comment on it, as others have done
so more than adequately.

Later, Mr Keren talked about ash at over twenty feet below the ground
at Treblinka. I said that if the hole was 20 feet deep and contained,
say, 10 feet of ash and bone that there would have to be 10 feet of
de-compressed soil to be dispersed. I think we are talking about
excavation work at the level where major earth moving equipment would
be needed. Is this reasonable for me to assume? Again, did you notice
that in his reply, which was vague and seemed to ignore my point, he,
once again,  heavily edited what I had said, to turn it to his own
advantage. Tell me Mr Moran, is this not deceitful?  

Here's a bit I liked. I said :
# But then, nobody is trying to claim that the bombing of Dresden
# was a "race crime" and that the world has got to feel guilty
# about it and pay for it ad infinitum with compounded interest.


To which he replied:
>Totally irrelevant. 

Irrelevant? Irrelevant? How relevant can you get! Did I strike a chord
there do you think? 

Incredibly, he went on:
>>This is a rather lame attempt on your side
>>to evade the issue. The issue is the "revisionist" claim that,
>>means the Holocaust is a "hoax". 

Bless him, he's so desparate! Here he is, saying what "the issue" is.
What Issue? I was merely talking about the evidence. He wants "an
issue" and wants it to be chosen by him.

Here he goes again. They think they've got something clever here:

>>Well, we have positively insane
>>testimonies about Dresden's bombing. We have positively insane
>>testimonies about Soviet atrocities against German civilians. Using
>>the very same "revisionist logic", we arrive at the "revisionist
>>breakthrough" that Dresden was not bombed, and that there were
>>no such Soviet atrocities.

This is so sad an attempt that I don't have it in me to even be
irritated. For his line of reasoning to be acceptable, "revisionism"
would have to equal saying that NO Jews were killed by Germans in
WWII. 

His next bit of creative editing:

# I'm sure that the Germans did "brutalize" Jews and many others,
# though a beard cutting would not mean much to me. [HERE I AM EDITED]

>>Who the hell cares what it would mean to you?
He responded.

I want to know why he removed the rest of my paragraph. In which I
went on to say: 
But then, I don't believe that I would be defiled by having my beard
touched by a member of another race or religion as would an orthodox
Jew. I do not believe that all  other races/religions are "unclean"
compared with me. As I said before, I am not what you would call a
racist.

Why do you think he removed that? Are there possibly psychological
reasons coming into play here?

Here we come to the delicate matter of money. I said:

Now, what about the money that I consider you, if you are a Jew, owe
to 
this country for the war and Israel? I see that you have neatly side-
stepped that issue. My turn to say GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!

To which he responded:

Well, clown, if we're playing such games, what about you paying
the good old US of A back for saving your butt in WW2?

Funny, he seems to have forgotten what I said only a day before in
this same thread. That is:

When are the Jews going to pay the
British for saving them? How much money are "The Jews" going to pay
back for our suffering? We borrowed heavily from America to be able to
fight the War and paid back afterwards. We then supplied Palestine to
the Jews, at further enormous cost to ourselves. Now it OUR turn to
demand some money. All that "Nazi-Jewish gold" in Switzerland should
immediately be given to Britain, and Isreal should pay an annual fee
in gratitude for its very existence. I shall leave it to the Americans
to make their own statement of claim against Israel, and Jews in
general.

Why did he ignore the reference to the War Loan and its repayment in
that posting do you think? He MUST have read it, but for some reason
ignored the fact that I had brought it up. Fascinating how selective
his memory. Is this common in "holohuggers" or is he just teasing me?
I have to say here, that I do not really think that America had any
option but to join in. Had they not, and Britain had lost the war The
Hun would have inherited our Empire - and that was very big and would
have posed an enormous threat to America.


His last bit of foolishness was to say:
 
Heck, if it
were not for the US, you'd probably be singing the "Horst Wessel"
every morning. Or maybe you're singing it nontheless?

There you are Mr Moran, he proved you right. Hinted only, I grant you,
but it is there. The Nazi hint. Not quite said ... Yet.



My compliments to you Mr Moran,




"Alles was ist endet..".




Fergus




From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 09:06:46 PDT 1996
Article: 73219 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: LUFTWAFFE BRIEFING - SOBIBOR 
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:31:43 GMT
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Herr Oil, velcome to ze Luftwaffe. 
You are probably vondering vy you haff been dragged here. Vell, I
explain.
Last veek ven you performed as Don Giovanni before ze Fuhrer, at ze
Munich Opera House, it did not go un-noticed! Your powerful demonic
laughter at ze end of ze Champagne Aria was perfect for ze war effort!
Today, you haff a special mission. You are to fly viz two ozer pilots
to make special attacks on our own trains and trucks as zey go to
Sobibor. 
You vill be supplied viz a plane vizout a cockpit canopy and you vill
NOT haff an oxygen and communication mask, as zese items vould muffle
your vonderful Aryan voice!
You vill fly close to ze train and ze trucks and you vill machine gun
zem. Make sure zat AFTER you stop shooting you fly by again, as slowly
as possible und laugh loudly at Ada Lichtmann. As, of course, there
vill be a lot of noise from ze train, your engine and ze screaming of
ze dying, you must use ze special magaphone zat you will find in ze
plane.

Rommel vants fuel, Goering vants Berlin protected. Vell, sod zem both!
Rommel can vait for his petrol und Berlin must wait as vell! Ada
Lichtmann must hear ze full force of ze true Aryan Laugh! Zis will
hasten ze end of ze war! 

Try not to kill any of our guards, ze train drivers or ze truck
drivers. Also, make sure zat you do not damage ze engine or any fuel
tanks on ze trucks.  you mission starts after ze Jews haff finished
zere lunchtime naked dancing. 

Gluckliche Fahrt!
Sieg Heil!

By ze vay, remember ze vords of ze Ur-vala, "...alles was ist, endet."

(Document recently discovered by the Isaeli Symphony Orchestra in a
score of Mozat's Don Giovanni. I understand that a copy is to be sent
to some place in Canada called TwitsCorp. the authenticity of this
document cannot be doubted.)

Fergus McClelland


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 12:14:06 PDT 1996
Article: 73342 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: uk.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Labour: the Jews' lickspittles and enemy of free speech
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:32:50 GMT
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anonymous <1_4_u@nym.alias.net> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>"
>LABOUR PLEDGE TO LEGISLATE AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
>
>A Labour government will act to make Holocaust denial a criminal 
>offence, Opposition leaders pledged this week.
>
>The announcement, made at the party's Blackpool conference, was the 
>culmination of a lengthy campaign by Jewish groups including the Board 
>of Deputies, the Holocaust Education Trust and Poale Zion.
>
>Shadow Home Secretary Jack Straw confirmed that a motion committing a 
>Labour government to such a law - due to be discussed yesterday - had 
>the backing of the entire leadership.
>
>This was underlined by Shadow Foreign Secretary Robin cook, who told a 
>Labour Friends of Israel fringe meeting: "For two years, there has 
>been a debate over whether to make it a crime to deny the Holocaust. 
>Now Jack Straw has made it clear that we will.
>
>"The way to make sure it [a Holocaust] never happens again is to make 
>sure we never forget it."
>
>Mr. Straw described the prospective legislation as a "much-needed 
>measure" in a conference discussion with Ivan Lewis, the Labour 
>candidate for Bury South. 
>
>Labour's intended law would reverse the Tory government's policy. Home 
>Secretary Michael Howard has repeatedly turned down calls to introduce 
>such legislation, arguing it would restrict freedom of speech and 
>could increase racial tension.
>
>The Blackpool conference continued the party's courting of the Jewish 
>community. Tony Blair led almost the entire Shadow Cabinet at LFI's 
>fringe meeting, which drew more than 500 people.
>
>In his address, Mr Blair said the Jewish community's principles were 
>"precisely those things for which Labour stands today... The renewal 
>of our ties with the communties is one of the best things that has 
>happened to us."
>"
>
>(Source: (UK) Jewish Chronicle, No. 6650, October 4, 1966).
>
>
>
>~~~
>This PGP signature only certifies the sender and date of the message.
>


Having read the above I was disturbed at the threat to free speech so
spoke to the Labour Party Headquarters for confirmation.

I was told that "at Conference" a motion, (called a composite) called
Composite 35 was passed. The Composite said:

 "Conference calls for it to be made a criminal offence to publish,
boradcast, distribute or display any material for the purpose of
denying the Holocaust."

The Composite was moved by PAOLE ZION, (a Zionist support group) and
was seconded by the Hornsey and Wood Green Constituancy Labour Party. 

Fortunately, Tony Blair, the Shadow Prime Minister, has an e-mail
address, through which I can make my feelings about the threat to free
speech known.  If others feel the need to voice an opinion, for or
against, the address is:

blairt@parliament.uk







From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 12:49:35 PDT 1996
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:11:04 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>

# Later, Mr Keren talked about ash at over twenty feet below
# the ground at Treblinka. I said that if the hole was 20 feet
# deep and contained, say, 10 feet of ash and bone
>
>Where have you dug the 10 feet figure from? 
>From  you! You said that the ash had been cored from the ground at a
depth of 7.5 meters. That is over twenty feet. So, a hole was dug to
that depth to get the ash down there. So, twent feet of soil was dug
out of the ground. It was then decompressed. Plese read your own
previous posting. Will yuou now tell us the actual size of the hole?
By this I mean, length and width. Unless, of course, you are
suggesting that the ashes were injected into a small bore hole with
something like a hyperdermic needle. How far apart were the core
sample, and how many of them showed ash at this great depth?

>The area of the
>extermination complex was approx. 200 x 250 meters. A layer of
>ash and bones, over that area, 10 feet high (3 meters), would
>occupy a volume of 3*250*200 = 150,000 cubic meters. That
>would be about 150,000 tons of human remains (assuming
>the same density as water), or about 214 kilograms of
>remains per person... an overestimate by a factor of
>about 100.
>
>You really don't seem to be capable of any rational thought.
>Do you also believe, like other "leading revisionists", 

I think this is an irrational concept. I did not say that the whole
camp was raised by ten feet. 

I am not a "leading revisionist". I am just a simple truth seeker.

>that
>the Nazi leadership fled the collapsing Reich using "secret
>UFO's", and flew them into the inner earth via a "hole in the
>South-Pole"?

I have heard equally ridiculous claims in this newsgroup! But, to
answer your question, my feeling is that it is highly unlikely.
However, I accept that | could be wrong.


>Wake up, old chap.
>
># We then supplied Palestine to the Jews, at further enormous cost
># to ourselves.
>
>Do wake up, old chap. The great empire is gone. Kaput. You folks
>don't rule the world anymore.

Of that I am aware. I accept the present, but I was referring to the
state of things back then - when we did rule most of it. And when are
you going to pay?  By saying that the British should pay America,
(which we did), for their help you have accepted the idea of payment
for services rendered. If you also say that Germany should pay Israel,
(which they do), then you have to complete the concept by agreeing
that Israel, and other Jews are in debt to Britain. 

>
>You "supplied Palestine to the Jews"? Who gave you Palestine in
>the first place? 
We took it. A bit like Israel took the Golan Heights, only bigger,
and, of course, without any outside help. 

>Can you believe the arrogance of this maniac?

This, Sir, is a compliment.

>Soon, old Fergus here will be demanding that the US pay him for
>giving America to the Americans.

We didn't give, or sell, America to the Americans. They took it. We
had a mad king on the throne at the time. Charles James Fox said back
then that His Majesty had an argument with an oak tree in Windsor
Great Park - and the tree got the better of the argument.
>
># His last bit of foolishness was to say:
>
>## Heck, if it were not for the US, you'd probably be singing the
>## "Horst Wessel" every morning. Or maybe you're singing it nonetheless?
>
>The truth hurts, doesn't it? Sorry if I hit a nerve.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
Not at all Mr Keren, I was amused. I've never heard it actually, (that
I know of), can you whistle it for me?

I'm sure you are teasing me, you wag you!



Fergus McClelland


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 12:49:38 PDT 1996
Article: 73360 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:11:03 GMT
Lines: 62
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>
># First, from the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food, who
># transferred me to their Animal Health Disease Control Department.
>
>Thanks for posting this information. Can you post their address, so
>I can write them?

Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food,
Animal Health Disease Control Department,
Tolworth,
Surrey.

The Misistry itself is at:
Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food,
Whiltehall Place,
London, SW1

Hope this is of help to you.

># The deaths were as follows:
>#
># Cattle   214,900
># Sheep   108,835
># Pigs    118526
># Goats          57
>#
># All the animals were slaughtered and incinerated on the
># farms where they were found and the partially burned remains
># were buried in enormous pits - again, at the same farms.
>
>How much time did it take to incinerate the dead animals?
>
>Also, can you make any comment on:
>
>1) The Jahrling letter to Kammler, and other sources, on the
>   cremation power of the Auschwitz-Birkenau furnaces?
>
>2) How many corpses do you suggest could be cremated in these
>   furnaces? They had 52 large cremation furnaces. Assuming,
>   say, that each could burn 15 corpses a day - and this is
>   most obviously a serious underestimate - we have, per year,
>   15*52*360 = 280,800 corpses.
>
>   Can you offer any rational explanation as to why a "work
>   camp", built to hold a few tens-of-thousands of inmates,
>   needed this astounding cremation power?
>
>3) Re disposing of corpses by burning them on pyres: this was
>   done in Dresden, after the mass murder of German civilians
>   in that city by British bombers. I have posted a photo, which
>   shows a huge pyre of corpses being burned. Are you suggesting
>   this worked only in Dresden, and that it would not have worked
>   for burning victims in the death camps and in the sites of the
>   "Einsatzgruppen" massacres?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 14 20:03:39 PDT 1996
Article: 74221 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ORAL SEX? & DANNY KEREN ET AL
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:55:36 GMT
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Dear Mr Keren,

I don't really know how to put this, so I shall try to be as tactful
as possible. Only, I wonder, did you have your penis sucked by a man
when you were only a few days old? You see, I understand, that Jews
have the tops of their thingeys amputated and then this man sucks
blood out of the stump. If this is true, do you think that it might
have affected your psyche at all? It's not as if you were his first,
so does the idea that other boys had the same experience with him
before you make you jealous at all? 
Many events in early youth affect ones whole lifelong outlook, so, do
you think that this rather painful and, to say the least, quite
intimate, experience would alter male Jews view of the world and
interaction with those who have not gone through the experience? For
example, might it cause a touch of misogyny?
Your views on this matter would be greately appreciated, as it might
help me to understand the male Jewish "mindset" and responses to those
whom they know have not experienced the same precocious introduction
to oral sexual activity. I am sorry to put it this way, but I cannot
really see it as anything other than that - though I am open to
correction.

I do hope that you do not think that this is too personal a question,
it is just that you are known on Alt Revisionism for your rationality
and calmness, so it is to you I turn.


Fergus McClelland


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 16 00:28:06 PDT 1996
Article: 74666 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ORAL SEX? & DANNY KEREN ET AL
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:53:34 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32615643.6060624@news.demon.co.uk>, redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk
>(Fergus McClelland) wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr Keren, 
>
At this point, Mark Van Alstine decided to edit, leaving the comment:


>[McScum's anti-Semitic ravings snipped]

Imagine that I had said the following:

"I hate brobdignagians. They are going to pollute our gene pool. they
want to rule us and despoil our women. They must be driven from our
shores. They open the wrong end of their eggs. they are out to get
us!!!"

That, Mr Van Alstine, could be called "Anti-Brobdignagian ravings,"
and, if I had spoken in a similar vein against Jews, whether of race
or religion,  you would be reasonably justified in your remark.
However, what I actually said was a question about the effect that
ritual infant circumcision would have on the mind of Jews. I suppose,
>from  your editing that you are Jewish, and found the subject too
sensitive to confront, having to edit it out of existence and do your
own little bit of raving. At this point, I know I have to put in the
disclaimer, otherwise you will insist the absence of it proves the
truth of your silly assertion. So no, I am not an anti-semite as the
word is described in the dictionary. To disapprove of ritual maiming
of baby Jewish boys is not, I think, a sign of anti-semitism - rather
the opposite, perhaps.


Anyway, what I actually said was:

I don't really know how to put this, so I shall try to be as tactful
as possible. Only, I wonder, did you have your penis sucked by a man
when you were only a few days old? You see, I understand, that Jews
have the tops of their thingeys amputated and then this man sucks
blood out of the stump. If this is true, do you think that it might
have affected your psyche at all? It's not as if you were his first,
so does the idea that other boys had the same experience with him
before you make you jealous at all? 
Many events in early youth affect ones whole lifelong outlook, so, do
you think that this rather painful and, to say the least, quite
intimate, experience would alter male Jews view of the world and
interaction with those who have not gone through the experience? For
example, might it cause a touch of misogyny?
Your views on this matter would be greately appreciated, as it might
help me to understand the male Jewish "mindset" and responses to those
whom they know have not experienced the same precocious introduction
to oral sexual activity. I am sorry to put it this way, but I cannot
really see it as anything other than that - though I am open to
correction.
>> I do hope that you do not think that this is too personal a question,
>> it is just that you are known on Alt Revisionism for your rationality
>> and calmness, so it is to you I turn.


And now, Mr Van Alstine, off you go again:
>
>Yep, it was just matter of time before McScum bit the dust. Just couldn't
>take the pressure of _not_ acting like the piece of anti-Semitic filth he
>is any more it seems.... 
>
>Mark

You make a simple error here. I could act like an anti-semite, or a
pro-semite very easily while typing a message. This is only usenet,
not real life for heaven's sake! There is no pressure at all. 
Another mistake you keep making is the cry of "anti-Semite." To you,
it would be a vile insult, you can think of nothing worse to be called
I suppose. Do you not see the racist/religionist indoctrination that
makes you think that way? Judaism teaches that Jews are Chosen by G-d
to serve him: they should perform 613 Mitzvot.  A people of the Law.
Others are looked upon as inferior and unclean: what does the morning
prayer say: "Thank you G-d for not making me a woman or a goy..." Goy"
in this case NOT meaning nation, but foreigner, non-Jew, stranger,
lesser man, one who means less to G-d. So, you cry "anti-Semitic
filth" because that is what you least want to be called. The ultimate
insult. But it doesn't mean a thing to any non-Jew. The Christian
tenet of "Do as you would be done by" never was realistic, and is
failing you here.
Maybe you are not that simple, maybe you say it to try to stop readers
taking anything I say as being true. "He is just anti-Semitic filth,
that is why he says things against the Holocaust [TM] so don't believe
him." I think the readers are more intelligent than you give them
credit for.

You seem at times to find difficulty acting like a gentleman, perhaps
because you are not one, what was it you said to someone only a day or
so ago? Ah yes, here it is - what a gem:

>Herr Wankermeister, DO try and keep up. Perhaps if you were to stop
>fondling your genitals once on a while you would have noticed that ...

The old "Herr" ploy eh? A bit obvious don't you think. Do you REALLY
think that the people you accuse of being Nazis by this method ARE
Nazis? Honestly? Do you think that readers will think so? Perhaps,
again, you would hate being called a nazi so much you think that the
"Herr" is wounding. I think you are very wrong, and just maybe, very
stupid.

Interesting, your fascination with people genitals. jealousy for the
foreskin you no longer have perhaps? Or maybe just a, possibly latent,
homosexual fascination?
As others have said, you contribute nothing here but support for your
fellow religionists. No, I do not mean Jews, I mean the religion of
the Holocaust. I thought of comparing you and Daniel Keren to Batman
and Robin, or to Laurel and Hardy, but I couldn't decide which one was
which. 

If you wish to discuss the effect that circumcision has on the mind of
Holohuggers like yourself, I will be only too willing to do so.

Your little quote thing:
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can a fool like you quote something fairly true like that I
wonder? Perhaps like a stopped clock, you manage to be correct twice a
day.

"...alles was ist endet."

Fergus McClelland


P.S. I saw that Daniel Keren had replied to my article, but only the
header of what he wrote arrived at my server so I am unable to respond
to him.





From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 16 07:15:13 PDT 1996
Article: 74754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GYPSY WWII REPARATIONS?
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:46:07 GMT
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In the standard Holcaust [TM] package, the Gypsies are often mentioned
as a secondary group to the Jews being killed for racial reasons by
the Germans in WWII. This being the case, do they receive guilt-gelt
>from  Germany and lots of $$$ from America? Are they to be given a
country? If not - why not?
Also, is it know if the Jews who receive money for these reasons give
any portion of it to these, their fellow sufferers? Again, if not -
why not?


"Alles was ist endet..."


Fergus McClelland


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 16 07:15:14 PDT 1996
Article: 74755 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GYPSY HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM?
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:46:06 GMT
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Does anybody know of such a thing?
The story runs that this small minority group with no country of their
own were slaughtered almost to extinction by the Germans in WWII. 
So, surely, by now, there MUST be some museums and monuments - but I
know of none.
Is there anything anywhere in the world? I do not mean a small display
in annex 15 of some vast Jewish Holoshrine complex, I mean something
in its own right. A caravan will do, even a matchstick sticking out of
the ground with "Gypsy Holocaust Memorial" written on it.
Is there anything known?


"Alles was ist endet..."

Fergus McClelland



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 17 07:25:32 PDT 1996
Article: 75131 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PGROFF THE HYPOCRITE
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:38:15 GMT
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

I WROTE
>>as a question about the effect that
>>ritual infant circumcision would have on the mind of Jews. 

P GROFF WROTE:
>It would be rather hard for anyone to remember that which happened
>eight days after birth.
The subconsious mind is very good at remembering early experiences.
There have been cases of memories from the womb. It has to be admitted
that to have a sensitive part of ones anatomy ripped off 8 days after
birth without anaesthetic and extremely painful HAS to be traumatic.
The "foreskin" name is a misnomer, as it is a highly sensitive and
complex part of an organ. the glans of the penis is medically
considered an internal organ at the time of birth. The detachment of
the prepuce from the glans can take as long as 5 years. Being ripped
away 8 days after birth is unnatural, painful and dangerous, and does
date back to a time when the practitioners knew no better.

P GROFF CONTINUED
> Besides the question isn't the important
>issue, rather you wish to have a "dig" so to speak at a person you
>know is Jewish, 

I did not, and do not, know the man to be Jewish. I said "IF you are
Jewish,,," in my posting to him. It is the Jewish mentality I wish to
explore, so the question HAS to be directed at Jews. Maybe you, if you
be a Jew, can answer the questions I posed.

PGROFF AGAIN: 
>and for no other reason. That is anti-semitism

Only Jews, in this newsgroup, routinely remove the prepuce without
anaesthetic or a doctor. The "operation" as performed by Jews, is in
fact merely a sacrificial rite, performed by a member of a religion
using a cutting implement at first and following up with a sharpened
thumbnail and sucking with the mouth of a man. 

I SAID:
>> I am not an anti-semite as the
>>word is described in the dictionary. To disapprove of ritual maiming
>>of baby Jewish boys is not, I think, a sign of anti-semitism - rather
>>the opposite, perhaps.

P GROFF RESPONDED:
>Wrong on two counts, you are a person who has a hatred of Jews that is
>the correct term that I am aware of in the dictionary.
 
Always the "hatred". Never disapproval or dislike. Not even
"indifference". Nope. All the way to hatred you go. Why? Is this such
a dominating emotion in you that you assume it in others? Why should I
"Hate" Jews? Do you mean the Jewish religion, or the Jewish ethnicity?
It would be rather an extreme position to take would it not? Hatred by
race? Hatred by religion? Le;t's see on what you base this belief....

PGROFF WENT ON
As for your
>"disapprove" of ritual maiming of baby Jewish boys, why not say that
>you disagree with ritual maiming of baby boys??

I do disapprove of all maiming, ritual or not. However, I was
responding to someone who called me an anti-semite because I
disapprove of it in the case of Jewish boys. Therefore, there was no
point in my talking about disapproval of Aborigine infibulation of
their baby boys to prove that I am not anti-semitic. Is this clear to
you?

PGROFF AGAIN
> I know, I know,
>because you are an antisemite, simple.
A branding based on what? It seems only on your preconceived ideas. If
anyone comes to AR and doubts your sagas they must be an anti-semite. 

PGROFF AGAIN
> Oh I know you aren't
>particularly worried about be called such, probably because of your
>being so comfortable with the label.

Not comfortable, unconcerned. It has been so overused as to be
meaningless. Since I have been reading the hysterical and vicious
comments of you and others of the Nizcor mentality, I begin to
understand why people do become anti-semitic to some level or other.
Remember, prejudice is born out of experience. A baby Jew does not
hate Arafat. He is taught to, both by his parents and the events in
the middle east.

So much of Judaism is based on "hatred" of non-Jews that it does not
surprise me that people respond in kind to the way that they are
treated by Jews. No, I do not say all Jews, either of race or
religion. Just the noisy ones. If I am mugged three times by esquimaux
I will develop a, based on experience, dislike, and distrust of that
ethnicity. Is this hard for you to understand? That is what happens in
the real world.

As to the title of this thread, I refer you to the following and ask
how I have been "crude" and ask if the following, by members of your
clan are not far worse than anything I have said. Surely, your
condemnation of "crudity" should have been aimed at the people whose
comments are listed hereunder. 

Was my use of the word "thingey" for penis really offensive to you?
Compared with the stuff below? Or is it simply that the slightest
criticism of anything Jewish HAS to be based on hatred and HAS to be
crude, because that is what you have been taught?

You do seem, to prove my idea that the barbarism of circumcision is
one of the factors in a "hatred" mentality which many Jews seem to
suffer from.

I note in the quotes below, all gathered from the last two days
postings, that there seems to be a fixation on defaecation and sexual
activity amongst your ilk. Why is this? Does the mind remember penis
damage and find itself unwittingly thinking along these lines?




"Alles was ist endet..."


Fergus McClelland

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRUDITIES BY DEFENDERS OF THE HOLOCAUST FAITH

MARK VAN ALSTEIN WROTE:
[DOUBLE REFERENCE TO MASTURBATION]
>Herr Wankermeister, DO try and keep up. Perhaps if you were to stop
>fondling your genitals once on a while you would have noticed that Butz,
>the...

>  Chuck Ferree writs:
 [REFERENCE TO MASTURBATION]
>  Stele the wannabe natsie, is not a troll, just a punk, liar and 
>  follower of blackmore. Both together have about a 32 IQ, and seem to 
>  be habitual and compulsive masturbaters, which does have an impact on 
>  ones perceptions. In their minds, they see lots of pictures of nude 
>  men and women in lewd poses. 

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
[REFERENCE TO FAECES]
What on earth is this natsie wannbe up to?....
>He is defending the worst liar on the Internet, and it's his usual 
>crappola!

Chuck Ferree wrote:
[REFEReNCE TO MASTURBATION]
>The Holocaust happened the way it happened because the Nazis wanted it 
>to happen that way. No ifs ands or buts. kurt, slow down with the self 
>abuse, including sniffing glue, pal. It ain't good for the brain.
Chuck


mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
[REFERNCE TO FAECES & TWO REFERENCES TO MARTURBATION]
>> You don't have jack-shit, neither does any other Holocauster. 
>...So sayeth the Wankermeister. Best you go back to playing with yourself,
>you're completely out of your league here. 

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
[TWO REFERENCES TO MARTURBATION]
>Such a lame, wanker-jerking, Nazi scumbag is more like it! ROTFL! ....
>..An interesting dialogue, to say the least, eh, Herr Wankermeister? 


fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
[REFERENCE TO COPULATION]
>..... I'm not your fucking librarian.  Get me?

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
[REFERENCE TO ANUS]
>Debunked??? By Whom? Show us lil asshole natsie wannabe. 

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
[FOUR REFERENCES TO MASTURBATION]
>Actually, Herr Wankermeister, if you weren't so busy playing with yourself
>you would have noticed that the thread in question is a _very_ long
>running one.* In fact it predates .....
>.....Some "running away," eh, Herr Wankermeister? Perhaps it _is_ best that you
>go back to playing with yourself. It seems to be the _only_ thing you're
>remotely good at.... 

Sara, aka perrrfect wrote:
[REFERENCE TO FAECES]
>..... That was the easiest one to unmask, since the
>shit-for-brains...



>              
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>                        |
>                In Memory of Pooh.Bah



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 17 07:25:33 PDT 1996
Article: 75132 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PGROFF THE HYPOCRITE
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:38:58 GMT
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

I WROTE
>>as a question about the effect that
>>ritual infant circumcision would have on the mind of Jews. 

P GROFF WROTE:
>It would be rather hard for anyone to remember that which happened
>eight days after birth.
The subconsious mind is very good at remembering early experiences.
There have been cases of memories from the womb. It has to be admitted
that to have a sensitive part of ones anatomy ripped off 8 days after
birth without anaesthetic and extremely painful HAS to be traumatic.
The "foreskin" name is a misnomer, as it is a highly sensitive and
complex part of an organ. the glans of the penis is medically
considered an internal organ at the time of birth. The detachment of
the prepuce from the glans can take as long as 5 years. Being ripped
away 8 days after birth is unnatural, painful and dangerous, and does
date back to a time when the practitioners knew no better.

P GROFF CONTINUED
> Besides the question isn't the important
>issue, rather you wish to have a "dig" so to speak at a person you
>know is Jewish, 

I did not, and do not, know the man to be Jewish. I said "IF you are
Jewish,,," in my posting to him. It is the Jewish mentality I wish to
explore, so the question HAS to be directed at Jews. Maybe you, if you
be a Jew, can answer the questions I posed.

PGROFF AGAIN: 
>and for no other reason. That is anti-semitism

Only Jews, in this newsgroup, routinely remove the prepuce without
anaesthetic or a doctor. The "operation" as performed by Jews, is in
fact merely a sacrificial rite, performed by a member of a religion
using a cutting implement at first and following up with a sharpened
thumbnail and sucking with the mouth of a man. 

I SAID:
>> I am not an anti-semite as the
>>word is described in the dictionary. To disapprove of ritual maiming
>>of baby Jewish boys is not, I think, a sign of anti-semitism - rather
>>the opposite, perhaps.

P GROFF RESPONDED:
>Wrong on two counts, you are a person who has a hatred of Jews that is
>the correct term that I am aware of in the dictionary.
 
Always the "hatred". Never disapproval or dislike. Not even
"indifference". Nope. All the way to hatred you go. Why? Is this such
a dominating emotion in you that you assume it in others? Why should I
"Hate" Jews? Do you mean the Jewish religion, or the Jewish ethnicity?
It would be rather an extreme position to take would it not? Hatred by
race? Hatred by religion? Le;t's see on what you base this belief....

PGROFF WENT ON
As for your
>"disapprove" of ritual maiming of baby Jewish boys, why not say that
>you disagree with ritual maiming of baby boys??

I do disapprove of all maiming, ritual or not. However, I was
responding to someone who called me an anti-semite because I
disapprove of it in the case of Jewish boys. Therefore, there was no
point in my talking about disapproval of Aborigine infibulation of
their baby boys to prove that I am not anti-semitic. Is this clear to
you?

PGROFF AGAIN
> I know, I know,
>because you are an antisemite, simple.
A branding based on what? It seems only on your preconceived ideas. If
anyone comes to AR and doubts your sagas they must be an anti-semite. 

PGROFF AGAIN
> Oh I know you aren't
>particularly worried about be called such, probably because of your
>being so comfortable with the label.

Not comfortable, unconcerned. It has been so overused as to be
meaningless. Since I have been reading the hysterical and vicious
comments of you and others of the Nizcor mentality, I begin to
understand why people do become anti-semitic to some level or other.
Remember, prejudice is born out of experience. A baby Jew does not
hate Arafat. He is taught to, both by his parents and the events in
the middle east.

So much of Judaism is based on "hatred" of non-Jews that it does not
surprise me that people respond in kind to the way that they are
treated by Jews. No, I do not say all Jews, either of race or
religion. Just the noisy ones. If I am mugged three times by esquimaux
I will develop a, based on experience, dislike, and distrust of that
ethnicity. Is this hard for you to understand? That is what happens in
the real world.

As to the title of this thread, I refer you to the following and ask
how I have been "crude" and ask if the following, by members of your
clan are not far worse than anything I have said. Surely, your
condemnation of "crudity" should have been aimed at the people whose
comments are listed hereunder. 

Was my use of the word "thingey" for penis really offensive to you?
Compared with the stuff below? Or is it simply that the slightest
criticism of anything Jewish HAS to be based on hatred and HAS to be
crude, because that is what you have been taught?

You do seem, to prove my idea that the barbarism of circumcision is
one of the factors in a "hatred" mentality which many Jews seem to
suffer from.

I note in the quotes below, all gathered from the last two days
postings, that there seems to be a fixation on defaecation and sexual
activity amongst your ilk. Why is this? Does the mind remember penis
damage and find itself unwittingly thinking along these lines?




"Alles was ist endet..."


Fergus McClelland

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRUDITIES BY DEFENDERS OF THE HOLOCAUST FAITH

MARK VAN ALSTEIN WROTE:
[DOUBLE REFERENCE TO MASTURBATION]
>Herr Wankermeister, DO try and keep up. Perhaps if you were to stop
>fondling your genitals once on a while you would have noticed that Butz,
>the...

>  Chuck Ferree writs:
 [REFERENCE TO MASTURBATION]
>  Stele the wannabe natsie, is not a troll, just a punk, liar and 
>  follower of blackmore. Both together have about a 32 IQ, and seem to 
>  be habitual and compulsive masturbaters, which does have an impact on 
>  ones perceptions. In their minds, they see lots of pictures of nude 
>  men and women in lewd poses. 

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
[REFERENCE TO FAECES]
What on earth is this natsie wannbe up to?....
>He is defending the worst liar on the Internet, and it's his usual 
>crappola!

Chuck Ferree wrote:
[REFEReNCE TO MASTURBATION]
>The Holocaust happened the way it happened because the Nazis wanted it 
>to happen that way. No ifs ands or buts. kurt, slow down with the self 
>abuse, including sniffing glue, pal. It ain't good for the brain.
Chuck


mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
[REFERNCE TO FAECES & TWO REFERENCES TO MARTURBATION]
>> You don't have jack-shit, neither does any other Holocauster. 
>...So sayeth the Wankermeister. Best you go back to playing with yourself,
>you're completely out of your league here. 

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
[TWO REFERENCES TO MARTURBATION]
>Such a lame, wanker-jerking, Nazi scumbag is more like it! ROTFL! ....
>..An interesting dialogue, to say the least, eh, Herr Wankermeister? 


fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
[REFERENCE TO COPULATION]
>..... I'm not your fucking librarian.  Get me?

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
[REFERENCE TO ANUS]
>Debunked??? By Whom? Show us lil asshole natsie wannabe. 

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
[FOUR REFERENCES TO MASTURBATION]
>Actually, Herr Wankermeister, if you weren't so busy playing with yourself
>you would have noticed that the thread in question is a _very_ long
>running one.* In fact it predates .....
>.....Some "running away," eh, Herr Wankermeister? Perhaps it _is_ best that you
>go back to playing with yourself. It seems to be the _only_ thing you're
>remotely good at.... 

Sara, aka perrrfect wrote:
[REFERENCE TO FAECES]
>..... That was the easiest one to unmask, since the
>shit-for-brains...



>              
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>                        |
>                In Memory of Pooh.Bah



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 18 19:39:31 PDT 1996
Article: 75535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: WHO IS MATT GIWER?
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:29:58 GMT
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I keep reading messages attacking someone called Matt Giwer. The
things of which some people here accuse this man with an obviously
Jewish name are absurd. I think that they are trying to lay the blame
for the writings of some of the extremists in their midst onto this
"bogeyman". They talk about him being "Just Moshe", but that silly old
Orthodox fart is obviously posting from a kibbutz. I mean, just look
at the way he writes. It has that unwordly, irrational, rabbinical
quality to it. You can't actually  condemn his words because they are
so ethereal in their meaning. Basically he rambles biblical nonsense -
I think. No wonder some people disown him - so would I. I get
embarrassed for them when he posts.

Incidentally, I have checked all the postings in the last fortnight
for this group and have not found one posting by anyone called Matt
Giwer. When you create a hoax, I suggest you work harder at it. This
one is too obvious, and I refuse to believe it. 

Finally, perhaps somebody can tell me something about this Moshe
character. He posts as "Just Moshe", but does the "Just" bit mean
righteous, does it mean "merely" or is it short for his Christian
name, Justin? All opinions will be gratefully considered.


Fergus McClelland




From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 24 11:43:18 PDT 1996
Article: 76731 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ode to Matt Giwer
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:04:39 GMT
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They seek him here,
They seek him there,
They seek Matt Giwer everywhere.
Is he in Heaven, is he in Hell?
That damned elusive bane of Israel.


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 27 11:34:51 PST 1996
Article: 77286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!eru.mt.luth.se!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GYPSY HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM?
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 20:37:42 GMT
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Does anybody know of such a thing?
The story runs that this small minority group with no country of their
own were slaughtered almost to extinction by the Germans in WWII. 
So, surely, by now, there MUST be some museums and monuments - but I
know of none.
Is there anything anywhere in the world? I do not mean a small display
in annex 15 of some vast Jewish Holoshrine complex, I mean something
in its own right. A caravan will do, even a matchstick sticking out of
the ground with "Gypsy Holocaust Memorial" written on it.
Is there anything known?


"Alles was ist endet..."

Fergus McClelland



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 27 14:32:33 PST 1996
Article: 77358 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GYPSY HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM?
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:37:56 GMT
Lines: 63
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>>Does anybody know of such a thing?
>>The story runs that this small minority group with no country of their
>>own were slaughtered almost to extinction by the Germans in WWII. 
>>So, surely, by now, there MUST be some museums and monuments - but I
>>know of none.
MY NEXT PARAGRAPH, REMOVED BY MR GRAVES AND NOW RESTORED SAID:
Is there anything anywhere in the world? I do not mean a small display
in annex 15 of some vast Jewish Holoshrine complex, I mean something
in its own right. A caravan will do, even a matchstick sticking out of
the ground with "Gypsy Holocaust Memorial" written on it.
Is there anything known?


MR GRAVES SAID:
>My ex-girlfriend saw one in Barcelona. I'll scan in the picture if I can
>find it. 

Thank you. But it that all? REALLY all? Not much is it.

MR GRAVES SAID:
>Has your monumental stupidity and hatred of Jews been commemorated
>anywhere? 
>
>-rich

Ah! Here we go again, the old "You are stupid and hate Jews" routine.
I wonder if what I wrote REALLY made you believe that. If so, your
chip on shoulder racism, (or is that relgionism?) is truly paranoid in
its intensity.
Maybe you are just obeying some of the Nizcor Commandments referred to
by Mr Blackmore.

Let's see:
3.   Thou shalt use slander and insults in replying to the
       arguments of honest inquirers.  When a situation
       becomes uncomfortable, refer to the inquirer as a
       "Nazi" or "hater" or "anti-Semite".

I guess that covers it.

And no, I do not hate anyone - or group. But I do loathe hypocrisy.

But you, Mr. Graves, show such classic traits of a racist - or is it
religionist? What IS a Jew - I can think of 8 basic varieties. I
presume you fit in there somewhere - hence the claim that I hate Jews
- based, it seems on the fact that I wonder how much the suffering of
the Gypsies has been remembered. Is that all it takes then, to be a
Jew-hater? Am I deflecting too much from "The Jews" sufferings by
merely mentioning the Gypsies?
What a give away to your metality Mr Graves, how you have exposed
yourself.

And yes, for various reasons I do have a soft spot for Gypsies. Is
that Racism?


Fergus McClelland.





From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 27 15:12:47 PST 1996
Article: 77359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GYPSY WWII REPARATIONS?
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:38:02 GMT
Lines: 58
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>>In the standard Holcaust [TM] package, the Gypsies are often mentioned
>>as a secondary group to the Jews being killed for racial reasons by
>>the Germans in WWII.


>This is true. You will find them mentioned in most history books. Some
>references:
>

MR. GRAVES REPLIED:
>Don't worry, the victims are all being remembered, and people of good will
>are working against other acts of genocide in Rwanda and the former
>Yugoslavia. In Argentina, Equipo Nizkor, http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/ ,
>works to bring those responsible for war crimes in Latin America to
>justice.

Good. Maybe there will one day be a move to uncover the crimes of the
soviets? Perhaps someone will "pay" all those tortured Eastern
Europeans? As you may be aware, there is wartime German gold in the
Bank of England that was to be used to pay for Eastern European
development. Now, it is to be given to the "relatives of Jews who
suffered in The Holocaust." I guess you think that is fair.

MR. GRAVES FINISHED:
>Isn't it amazing that there are still people out there so full of hate
>that the deny, minimize, and ridicule these crimes against humanity? 
>
>-rich

I wonder if you mean me in this last paragraph. Are there such people?
I haven't come across any. Mind you, there are plenty who deny any
Allied cruelty to Germans after WWII. 
Is it "Hate" to wonder at the extent and details of the Nazi
brutality? I do not for one moment doubt that many Germans, both Nazi
and just plain nasty killed, tortured, raped and generally tormented
millions. I do not deny, minimize or ridicule the crimes of those
animals in human form. What I doubt is the simplicity of it all.
"German Bad. Jew good." Life ain't that straightforward. Unless, of
course, they all went insane something triggered the bestiality. 


HERE IS THE REST OF WHAT I WROTE (Snipped for some unaccountable
reason by Mr Graves)
This being the case, do they receive guilt-gelt from Germany and lots
of $$$ from America? Are they to be given a country? If not - why not?
Also, is it know if the Jews who receive money for these reasons give
any portion of it to these, their fellow sufferers? Again, if not -
why not?

As the previous paragraph was removed I take it that Mr Graves does
not know of, nor want to discuss, Jews giving money to Gypsies. Why am
I not surprised?

Fergus McClelland



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 12:50:35 PST 1996
Article: 77961 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GYPSY WWII REPARATIONS?
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:58:07 GMT
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>>rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
>>
>>>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>>>>In the standard Holcaust [TM] package, the Gypsies are often mentioned
>>>>as a secondary group to the Jews being killed for racial reasons by
>>>>the Germans in WWII.
>>
>>>This is true. You will find them mentioned in most history books. Some
>>>references:
>
>[Fergus snipped a slew of references to Gypsies in the Holocaust; it seems
>he wasn't really interested in that at all. How odd.]

Not at all, I snipped as you had snipped. Not nice is it? Also, your
references were not valid to the thread, reparations to Gypsies.


>>MR. GRAVES REPLIED:
>>>Don't worry, the victims are all being remembered, and people of good will
>>>are working against other acts of genocide in Rwanda and the former
>>>Yugoslavia. In Argentina, Equipo Nizkor, http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/ ,
>>>works to bring those responsible for war crimes in Latin America to
>>>justice.
>>
>>Good. Maybe there will one day be a move to uncover the crimes of the
>>soviets?
>
>What is it that you want to know? There were two sessions on Soviet war
>crimes at the recent CIIS conference, http://www.stanford.edu/group/CIIS/
>The panelists were Alex Inkeles, Robert Conquest, Michael McFaul, Lesley
>Rimmel, James Perry, and Michael Putnam. Richard Lane, who was scheduled
>to speak, skipped it due to political campaign commitments (he's running
>for Congress). 
>
>Henry Rowen briefly touched on Soviet war crimes during the discussion on
>US policy. I also talked to Bill Ratliff at the luncheon on Saturday, and
>Justice Goldstone (until last week the head of the International War
>Crimes Tribunal at The Hague) spoke to the issue of relativism.
>

 Rich Graves list of books in his library snipped - see original
posting to read.
>


>Questions on ex-soviet history are more on-topic for soc.culture.soviet,
>but please do not hesitate to pose them here if you think they will raise
>the signal level, which has degraded somewhat with Giwer's latest antics.

I think that Mr giwer often raises the quality of debate by prodding
the complacent.


>I fail to see what any of this has to do with the denial of Nazi war
>crimes, which is the topic of this group, because no one is denying that
>the Soviets were guilty of war crimes (Katyn, for instance). But it was
>the Nazis who murdered some twelve million noncombatants in the Holocaust.

Alt.revisionism means alt.revisionism does it not? That would mean
revision of history. Why stick to WW11 and the Germans, or, as you
insist on saying, the Nazis. Anyway, the 12 million is your belief,
not mine. This group is a place where the number, methods and reasons
are discussed, it is not accepted that 12 million were deliberately
killed. 

>>MR. GRAVES FINISHED:
>>>Isn't it amazing that there are still people out there so full of hate
>>>that the deny, minimize, and ridicule these crimes against humanity? 
>>
>>I wonder if you mean me in this last paragraph. Are there such people?
>>I haven't come across any. Mind you, there are plenty who deny any
>>Allied cruelty to Germans after WWII. 
>>Is it "Hate" to wonder at the extent and details of the Nazi
>>brutality? I do not for one moment doubt that many Germans, both Nazi
>>and just plain nasty killed, tortured, raped and generally tormented
>>millions. I do not deny, minimize or ridicule the crimes of those
>>animals in human form. What I doubt is the simplicity of it all.
>>"German Bad. Jew good." Life ain't that straightforward. Unless, of
>>course, they all went insane something triggered the bestiality. 
>
>I see I may have misjudged you. So you agree with the historical consensus
>about the facts of the Holocaust, but you believe the Jews deserved it?

That was not what I said. Many died, there was evil done by all sides.
So no, I do not "agree with the historical consensus". What a loaded
concept. There is no consensus. The number of deaths varies all the
time. Usually downwards. The causes of death change all the time; less
and less of them as time goes on. 
However Jews are not angels - or haven't you noticed? Remember the
Jewish terrorists who murdered German prisoners in Belsen after the
war by poisoning the bread? Remember the Jews who went round hunting
for and killing ex-SS men after the war?  Remember the 1933 boycott of
German goods? Remember the reasons behind the Balfour Declaration? 

>David Irving tries this argument in *Goebbels*, but it simply doesn't
>work. Because there is no real evidence to support such a conclusion, he
>is forced to resprt to fabrication and lies, such as his silly attempt to
>make Theodore Kaufman the villain. 

Kaufmann certainly fits the description of villain.
>
>>HERE IS THE REST OF WHAT I WROTE (Snipped for some unaccountable
>>reason by Mr Graves)
>
>I'm sorry, I snipped it because I thought it was so blatantly antisemitic
>and uncivil as to warrant no response. In order to advance a civilized
>discussion, I simply ignored it. But if you insist...
>
>>This being the case, do they receive guilt-gelt from Germany and lots
>>of $$$ from America? Are they to be given a country? If not - why not?
>>Also, is it know if the Jews who receive money for these reasons give
>>any portion of it to these, their fellow sufferers? Again, if not -
>>why not?
>>
>>As the previous paragraph was removed I take it that Mr Graves does
>>not know of, nor want to discuss, Jews giving money to Gypsies. Why am
>>I not surprised?
>
>You are correct; I have no personal knowledge of Jewish Holocaust
>survivors or victims' families giving money to Gypsy groups. 
Thank you for answering the question.


>Nor am I personally aware of Gypsy victims giving money to Catholic victims, or
>Catholic victims giving money to mentally ill victims, or mentally ill
>victims giving money to Jehova's Witness victims, or Jehova's
>Witness victims giving money to Jewish victims. I'm not sure why you're
>not surprised, but this doesn't surprise me because I've never
>investigated the subject. Were it true, it wouldn't surprise me because I
>think it odd that one victim should be held responsible for another.

Only one group of all those mentioned above have been paid in money
and land  for their sufferings. Jews.


>>Perhaps someone will "pay" all those tortured Eastern
>>Europeans? As you may be aware, there is wartime German gold in the
>>Bank of England that was to be used to pay for Eastern European
>>development. Now, it is to be given to the "relatives of Jews who
>>suffered in The Holocaust." I guess you think that is fair.
>
>I was not aware of that, nor do I believe it to be true.

Check with the Financial Times, ask to speak to one of their reporters
covering the story, such as Norma Cohen. Alternatively, speak to the
Dail Maily, or indeed to the Foreign Office or the Bank Of England.
Or, even closer to home for you, the British Embassy in your country.
It is true.

>
>I do know that the European Union's and the United States' economic
>assistance to Eastern Europe is massive, and totally unrelated to
>Holocaust reparations. See the leader on Helmut Kohl in the current
>international edition of *The Economist*.
>
>Fergus, in this one message, you're all over the map. Gypsies, Soviets,
>Eastern Europe. It strikes me that you have no genuine interest in any of
>these. Rather, the theme here seems to be that anything that could in any
>way be seen as bashing the Jews is fair game.
>
I am entirely consistant. Look at the title of the thread.  Soviet
crimes were brought in in response to what you said. Eastern Europe is
where the money was due to go, instead it is going to Jews. I spoke
about my interest in Gypsies in another answer to you in another
thread.

Fergus

>-rich



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 15:12:59 PST 1996
Article: 77973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GYPSY WWII REPARATIONS?
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:58:05 GMT
Lines: 87
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References: <32712455.1857699@news.demon.co.uk> <54rcc8$he@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <3273d5d1.164527@news.demon.co.uk> <32770d74.83038492@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>In <3273d5d1.164527@news.demon.co.uk>, redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk
>(Fergus McClelland) wrote:
>
>[re: Gypsies]
>
>>HERE IS THE REST OF WHAT I WROTE (Snipped for some unaccountable
>>reason by Mr Graves)
>>This being the case, do they receive guilt-gelt from Germany and lots
>>of $$$ from America?
>
>Jews do not receive "guilt-gelt" from Germany. Jews are compensated
>for property confiscated by the Nazi government. Jews do not get "$$$"
>from America: Israel does.

Oh come on, pull the other one it's got bells on it!
Now what is Israel, pray tell - A secular land filled with Welsh and
Germans? Perhaps Australians?
No, of course not. Britain grabbed Palestine and gave it to.....
The Belgians?
Mr Morris, I think that you have to admit that Israel is a Jewish
country, created for all the Jews of the world to go to. Created
because of the Balfour declaration and to get Jews out of everybody's
hair. It is now a Jewish holiday location and a collector of American
and German gentile money. Given because of gassing story guilt, (which
day by day becomes more clear to me as false), and American Jewish
lobbying power. 

>> Are they to be given a country? If not - why not?
>>Also, is it know if the Jews who receive money for these reasons give
>>any portion of it to these, their fellow sufferers? Again, if not -
>>why not?
>
>Why the hell should Jews give money to anybody that they have been
>paid in compensation for lost property? 
Why not? Don't tell me that there has been an accurate accounting of
all that Jews in the 1940's owned and what it was worth. Have you
heard of "pity" and "gerenosity", how about "compassion for your
fellow sufferers"? No, I guess not. Are you a Jew by any chance?

>If you feel so much for the
>Gypsies, how much money have you given them? 
I have given and still do.

>Doesn't "revisionism"
>teach you that Britain is responsible for the suffering in
>concentration camps because of its terror bombing? 
As I do not fit into your idea of a revisionist I have no idea.
However, war is hell. There is no justice, everyone who fights is a
potential "war criminal." Look at what the Israeli's do to the arabs
around them. I wonder would the Israeli government compensate arabs
whose houses they have blown up. I doubt it. 

>Have you lobbied
>the British government to pay compensation? One little letter? A
>phonecall to your MP? Hypocrite?
We gave a country to the Jews. As they have not paid us for it, I
think it is up to them to help the Gypsies - after all, it's not as if
there are many of them - and going by "The Holocaust [TM]" story their
sufferings are of exactly the same type. How about Netanyahu saying:
"Let's give a passport to any Gypsy who wants to come here - we'll fit
them in over there" (as he points to a map of, um....Hebron,
Bethlehem). 

>>As the previous paragraph was removed I take it that Mr Graves does
>>not know of, nor want to discuss, Jews giving money to Gypsies. Why am
>>I not surprised?
>
>Why am I not surprised that, for no good reason, you characterize one
>set of victims as the victimizers of another set of victims?

What a strange man you are - where did I say that anyone was
victimizing anyone else?
Oh I see, the mere thought of a Jew giving money to a Gypsy is so
repugnent to you that you think that I must be accusing Jews of
attacking Gypsies in some way. 




>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 17:32:26 PST 1996
Article: 77993 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:31:36 GMT
Lines: 49
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rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>	Matt Giwer has "declared war" on alt.revisionism and stated that
>he seeks to make it unusable.  (For further documentation on this, check
>out http://www.nizkor.org). 
Is this an example of typically Jewish whining?

> By posting literally hundreds of messages, he
>has single-handedly managed to drown out almost all rational discussion
>regarding the collective events we call the Holocaust.  (This is similar
>to the attack on alt.religion.scientology)

Nonsense. You do rather exaggerate sir.

>	His latest stunt is to forge the From: line on each of his posts,
>thereby making killfiles worthless.

This is not forgery, it is using an assumed name or title. An alias, a
nom de plume. Quite in order. 

>  Gate.net has been informed of this,
>but refuses to do anything.  (When I forwarded examples of these posts,
>they sent a complaint to MY system administrator, accusing me of harassing
>them).
Quite right too, you little sneak, as you WERE harrassing them.

>	If you would like to complain to Gate.net about this abuse of
>alt.revisionism and their continuing refusal to do anything about it,
>please send complaints to security@gate.net.  Feel free to send along a
>few copies of Giwer's forgeries -- a cursory glance at the newsgroup will
>make these clear.

Wouldn't dream of it. At English schools in my time, sneaks like you
had the stuffing beaten out of them. Have you ever heard the old rhyme
"Tell tale tit...?" It was always aimed with justified revulsion at
whiney, sneaky, little toadies like you. You should be ashamed of
yourself. Fight your own battles out in the open. "Please Sir, Giwer's
chewing gum!!!"


rest snipped in disgust - see original if interested.

Fergus McClelland


>	
>Peace
>Kevin Filan



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 18:45:33 PST 1996
Article: 78002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those Paranoids
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 00:34:30 GMT
Lines: 115
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <32793c96.5754979@news.demon.co.uk>
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varange@crl.com (Troy Varange) wrote:

>In article <3275f1c0.13110707@203.12.22.10>,
>David S. Maddison  wrote:

SEE MUCH LOWER DOWN FOR WHAT MR MADDISSON WROTE.
For every stupid story, there is another stupid story.

For all you Nizcor sickos out there, here is a list of the sort of
people your god William Clinton surrounds himself with. (With a touch
of poetic license). W.C. is such a pathetic moron that he finds it
necessary to surround himself with people that he can feel superior
to.

Entertainers

Sammy Davis Jnr.
Deformities 
Delusion, thinks he can sing. Short of stature,  over-tanned, weak
sight, one-eyed, overlarge head ventilator. 
Barbara Striesand
Deformities
Delusion, thinks she can sing. Deaf, witless, lizard-eyed, ugly,
overlarge head ventilator.
Dustin Hoffman
Deformities
Short of stature, overlarge head ventilator.
Albert Einstein.
Deformities
Short of stature, bad memory, (declared he kept all his knowledge in
books), weak-eyed, overlarge head ventilator.
POLITICIANS
Warren Christopher.
Deformities
Delusion, thinks he can make peace in Middle East, ugly, overlarge
head ventilator.
Alec Greenspan
Deformities
Delusion, thinks he is numerate. weak eyed, overlarge head ventilator
Henry Kissinger
Deformities
Delusion, thinks he is Dr Strangelove, nearly started WWIII several
times, weak eyed, silly accent, short of stature,  overlarge head
ventilator
Karl Marx
deformities
Delusion, thought he could take on McCarthy. Ponce, (lived off his
grocer and butcher). Short of stature, overlarge head ventilator.
Frederick Engels
Deformities
Fancied Karl Marx, bloated capitalist who lived off sweated labour.
Trouble making cobbler with an overlarge head ventilator.
Lenin
Deformities
Delusion that he could change the world, weak eyes, short of stature,
overlarge head ventilator.
Golda Meir.
Deformities
Short of stature, weak eyed, overlarge head ventilator.
Moshe Dyan
Deformities
Ended the seven day war a day to soon, short of stature, one eyed,
overlarge head ventilator.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Deformities
Delusion, think he can win against the arabs by using white man's
magic. War monger, liar and cheat with an overlarge head ventilator
INTELLECTUALS
Just Moshe
Deformities.
Soft-headed senile fundamentalist rabbinical old fart, very short of
stature, blind, bald, hunch-backed, club-footed, right arm rigidly and
permanently raised at 45 degrees.  Suffers from flatulence, and
constipation. Very large head ventilator.

Anybody care to add to this list?


Fergus McClelland

 
>> For all you Nazi sickos out there, here is a list of the sort of
>> people your god Hilter surrounded himself. A.H. was such a pathetic
>> moron, he found it necessary to surround himself with people that he
>> could feel superior to.
>
>And yet you fear these people.
>
>> o Personal adjutants
>> Bruckner		Low intelligence
>> Burgdorff		Low intelligence
>> 
>> o SS aides
>> Fegelein		Low intelligence
>> Gunsche		Low intelligence
>> Rattenhuber		Low intelligence
>> 
>> o Hitler's driver		Low stature (needed special seat)
>> 
>> o Hess			Mentally disturbed
>> o Goebbels		Club foot
>> o Hoffman 		(photographer), alcoholic, deformed back
>> o Meier			(treasurer) one armed
>> o Amann		(press manager) one armed, dwarf
>> o Eckhart		(adviser) drug addict, alcoholic
>> o Assistant press chief	hearing impaired
>> o Schaub		(press liason) bad limp
>> o Rohm			(leader of brownshirts) homosexual
>> o Lutz			(leader of brownshirts) one eye
>> o Himmler		Hypochondriac, neurotic
>> o Streicher		(editor Der Sturmer) sex pervert
>> o Ley			(labor front) drunk, speech defect,dull-witted
>> o Bormann		(party secretary) alcoholic
>> o Goring		morphine addict
>> o von Ribbentrop	(foreign minister) Stupid, vile, vindictive


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Nov  1 09:09:59 PST 1996
Article: 78099 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:01:03 GMT
Lines: 93
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
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schwartz@infinet.com (Sara the Prefect) wrote:

Miss Prefect wrote all the stuff below my comments - showing how she
had been trying to get Mr Giwer censored, and banned from his new ISP.
My comment.

Well Miss Prrefect, you certainly live up to your title. Are you in
"The land of the free - the home of the brave?" Do you accept the idea
of free speech? It is clear that you do not. But to go as far as you
have, sneakily whining to a man's ISP behind his back. Aren't you
ashamed of yourself? What you have done is so low, so very low, and
despicable. He was only speaking his mind on usenet, not causing
actual bodily harm. People like you stagger me with their
vindictiveness that is aimed at all who don't crawl to them. Your
slimey actions make me want to puke over you, you really are so vile
that I cannot think of words to describe your repulsiveness. Tell me,
do you think that you behave in the way that Jews in Germany did in
the 1930's and 1940's. It would explain a lot.
I try very hard to mentally put myself in your position, to think the
way you do and understand the behaviour of you and others like you. I
fail, because I haven't the requisite viciousness and because I know
what would happen to me if I did act "your way". I really do fear for
the well-being of people who act the way that you do. For I have
observed that such actions provoke nasty reactions. It has happened
before many times to elitist, arrogant, greedy, cruel groups who find
themselves in an advantageous postion. They get swatted. The Ebo
tribe, who were tall, had their legs chopped off at the knee by the
Tutsis. Did they deserve it? Of course not, but human nature dictates
that these things happen. 

Now, I do not know Mr Giwer, but I hereby make it publicly known that
if necessary, in the interests of free speech, if he so wishes, his
postings can be posted using my account here in the UK,  or that of
friends of mine in Ireland, Switzerland, Norway and Italy. He will
speak.

Fergus McClelland


=======================================================
MISS PREFECT'S ADMISSION OF SLIMEY TROUBLE MAKING
=======================================================
>This is true. That's why they wrote ME the following:
>
>X-Sender: security@pop.gate.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 10:11:07 -0400
>To: schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)
>From: Security Administrator 
>Subject: Re: Revenue Canada Investigates JEWISH CHARITIES
>
>We have warned this user about violations against the CyberGate Subscriber's
>Agreement.  Repeated violations may cause the cancellation of this account.
>
>Teresa Israels

Is this lady Welsh by any chance?
======================================
SARA PREFECT'S LETTER TO GATE NET

>At 11:01 PM 10/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Dear Sir:
>> 
>>This is to inform you that your subscriber, whose name is Matt Giwer, has
>>joined up with your service after being kicked off combase, netcom, and
>>worldnet.att.net.
>> 
>>He engages in slander, mail-bombing, forges posts, and other attractive
>>behavior. His current "name" here is a blatant attempt to try and trick the
>>non-observant into believing that he is Ken McVay
>>(kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC), the Webmaster of the Nizkor
>>Holocaust web site. His excuse to worldnet ("I didn't spell the name the
>>same way, so it's not forgery,") didn't sit very well with them, and I hope
>>will not sit well with you either.
>> 
>> 
>>Sara Schwartz
>>schwartz@infinet.com
>>
>>In article <54ol1v$1ofs@news.gate.net>, kmcveigh@oneb.almanac.dc.ac wrote:
>>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>===========================================================================
>Security Administrator                             1301 W. Newport Ctr. Dr.
>CyberGate, Inc.                                   Deerfield Beach, FL 44332
>security@gate.net                                       954-428-4283 x 8070
>
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
>



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 15:15:38 PST 1996
Article: 77973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GYPSY WWII REPARATIONS?
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:58:05 GMT
Lines: 87
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <32790fc9.818829@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <32712455.1857699@news.demon.co.uk> <54rcc8$he@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <3273d5d1.164527@news.demon.co.uk> <32770d74.83038492@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>In <3273d5d1.164527@news.demon.co.uk>, redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk
>(Fergus McClelland) wrote:
>
>[re: Gypsies]
>
>>HERE IS THE REST OF WHAT I WROTE (Snipped for some unaccountable
>>reason by Mr Graves)
>>This being the case, do they receive guilt-gelt from Germany and lots
>>of $$$ from America?
>
>Jews do not receive "guilt-gelt" from Germany. Jews are compensated
>for property confiscated by the Nazi government. Jews do not get "$$$"
>from America: Israel does.

Oh come on, pull the other one it's got bells on it!
Now what is Israel, pray tell - A secular land filled with Welsh and
Germans? Perhaps Australians?
No, of course not. Britain grabbed Palestine and gave it to.....
The Belgians?
Mr Morris, I think that you have to admit that Israel is a Jewish
country, created for all the Jews of the world to go to. Created
because of the Balfour declaration and to get Jews out of everybody's
hair. It is now a Jewish holiday location and a collector of American
and German gentile money. Given because of gassing story guilt, (which
day by day becomes more clear to me as false), and American Jewish
lobbying power. 

>> Are they to be given a country? If not - why not?
>>Also, is it know if the Jews who receive money for these reasons give
>>any portion of it to these, their fellow sufferers? Again, if not -
>>why not?
>
>Why the hell should Jews give money to anybody that they have been
>paid in compensation for lost property? 
Why not? Don't tell me that there has been an accurate accounting of
all that Jews in the 1940's owned and what it was worth. Have you
heard of "pity" and "gerenosity", how about "compassion for your
fellow sufferers"? No, I guess not. Are you a Jew by any chance?

>If you feel so much for the
>Gypsies, how much money have you given them? 
I have given and still do.

>Doesn't "revisionism"
>teach you that Britain is responsible for the suffering in
>concentration camps because of its terror bombing? 
As I do not fit into your idea of a revisionist I have no idea.
However, war is hell. There is no justice, everyone who fights is a
potential "war criminal." Look at what the Israeli's do to the arabs
around them. I wonder would the Israeli government compensate arabs
whose houses they have blown up. I doubt it. 

>Have you lobbied
>the British government to pay compensation? One little letter? A
>phonecall to your MP? Hypocrite?
We gave a country to the Jews. As they have not paid us for it, I
think it is up to them to help the Gypsies - after all, it's not as if
there are many of them - and going by "The Holocaust [TM]" story their
sufferings are of exactly the same type. How about Netanyahu saying:
"Let's give a passport to any Gypsy who wants to come here - we'll fit
them in over there" (as he points to a map of, um....Hebron,
Bethlehem). 

>>As the previous paragraph was removed I take it that Mr Graves does
>>not know of, nor want to discuss, Jews giving money to Gypsies. Why am
>>I not surprised?
>
>Why am I not surprised that, for no good reason, you characterize one
>set of victims as the victimizers of another set of victims?

What a strange man you are - where did I say that anyone was
victimizing anyone else?
Oh I see, the mere thought of a Jew giving money to a Gypsy is so
repugnent to you that you think that I must be accusing Jews of
attacking Gypsies in some way. 




>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 17:32:24 PST 1996
Article: 77993 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:31:36 GMT
Lines: 49
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
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rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>	Matt Giwer has "declared war" on alt.revisionism and stated that
>he seeks to make it unusable.  (For further documentation on this, check
>out http://www.nizkor.org). 
Is this an example of typically Jewish whining?

> By posting literally hundreds of messages, he
>has single-handedly managed to drown out almost all rational discussion
>regarding the collective events we call the Holocaust.  (This is similar
>to the attack on alt.religion.scientology)

Nonsense. You do rather exaggerate sir.

>	His latest stunt is to forge the From: line on each of his posts,
>thereby making killfiles worthless.

This is not forgery, it is using an assumed name or title. An alias, a
nom de plume. Quite in order. 

>  Gate.net has been informed of this,
>but refuses to do anything.  (When I forwarded examples of these posts,
>they sent a complaint to MY system administrator, accusing me of harassing
>them).
Quite right too, you little sneak, as you WERE harrassing them.

>	If you would like to complain to Gate.net about this abuse of
>alt.revisionism and their continuing refusal to do anything about it,
>please send complaints to security@gate.net.  Feel free to send along a
>few copies of Giwer's forgeries -- a cursory glance at the newsgroup will
>make these clear.

Wouldn't dream of it. At English schools in my time, sneaks like you
had the stuffing beaten out of them. Have you ever heard the old rhyme
"Tell tale tit...?" It was always aimed with justified revulsion at
whiney, sneaky, little toadies like you. You should be ashamed of
yourself. Fight your own battles out in the open. "Please Sir, Giwer's
chewing gum!!!"


rest snipped in disgust - see original if interested.

Fergus McClelland


>	
>Peace
>Kevin Filan



From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 18:45:23 PST 1996
Article: 78002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!perdrix.demon.co.uk
From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Richard Marus)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those Paranoids
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 00:34:30 GMT
Lines: 115
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <32793c96.5754979@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <3275f1c0.13110707@203.12.22.10> <559ra2$sc2@crl3.crl.com>
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varange@crl.com (Troy Varange) wrote:

>In article <3275f1c0.13110707@203.12.22.10>,
>David S. Maddison  wrote:

SEE MUCH LOWER DOWN FOR WHAT MR MADDISSON WROTE.
For every stupid story, there is another stupid story.

For all you Nizcor sickos out there, here is a list of the sort of
people your god William Clinton surrounds himself with. (With a touch
of poetic license). W.C. is such a pathetic moron that he finds it
necessary to surround himself with people that he can feel superior
to.

Entertainers

Sammy Davis Jnr.
Deformities 
Delusion, thinks he can sing. Short of stature,  over-tanned, weak
sight, one-eyed, overlarge head ventilator. 
Barbara Striesand
Deformities
Delusion, thinks she can sing. Deaf, witless, lizard-eyed, ugly,
overlarge head ventilator.
Dustin Hoffman
Deformities
Short of stature, overlarge head ventilator.
Albert Einstein.
Deformities
Short of stature, bad memory, (declared he kept all his knowledge in
books), weak-eyed, overlarge head ventilator.
POLITICIANS
Warren Christopher.
Deformities
Delusion, thinks he can make peace in Middle East, ugly, overlarge
head ventilator.
Alec Greenspan
Deformities
Delusion, thinks he is numerate. weak eyed, overlarge head ventilator
Henry Kissinger
Deformities
Delusion, thinks he is Dr Strangelove, nearly started WWIII several
times, weak eyed, silly accent, short of stature,  overlarge head
ventilator
Karl Marx
deformities
Delusion, thought he could take on McCarthy. Ponce, (lived off his
grocer and butcher). Short of stature, overlarge head ventilator.
Frederick Engels
Deformities
Fancied Karl Marx, bloated capitalist who lived off sweated labour.
Trouble making cobbler with an overlarge head ventilator.
Lenin
Deformities
Delusion that he could change the world, weak eyes, short of stature,
overlarge head ventilator.
Golda Meir.
Deformities
Short of stature, weak eyed, overlarge head ventilator.
Moshe Dyan
Deformities
Ended the seven day war a day to soon, short of stature, one eyed,
overlarge head ventilator.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Deformities
Delusion, think he can win against the arabs by using white man's
magic. War monger, liar and cheat with an overlarge head ventilator
INTELLECTUALS
Just Moshe
Deformities.
Soft-headed senile fundamentalist rabbinical old fart, very short of
stature, blind, bald, hunch-backed, club-footed, right arm rigidly and
permanently raised at 45 degrees.  Suffers from flatulence, and
constipation. Very large head ventilator.

Anybody care to add to this list?


Fergus McClelland

 
>> For all you Nazi sickos out there, here is a list of the sort of
>> people your god Hilter surrounded himself. A.H. was such a pathetic
>> moron, he found it necessary to surround himself with people that he
>> could feel superior to.
>
>And yet you fear these people.
>
>> o Personal adjutants
>> Bruckner		Low intelligence
>> Burgdorff		Low intelligence
>> 
>> o SS aides
>> Fegelein		Low intelligence
>> Gunsche		Low intelligence
>> Rattenhuber		Low intelligence
>> 
>> o Hitler's driver		Low stature (needed special seat)
>> 
>> o Hess			Mentally disturbed
>> o Goebbels		Club foot
>> o Hoffman 		(photographer), alcoholic, deformed back
>> o Meier			(treasurer) one armed
>> o Amann		(press manager) one armed, dwarf
>> o Eckhart		(adviser) drug addict, alcoholic
>> o Assistant press chief	hearing impaired
>> o Schaub		(press liason) bad limp
>> o Rohm			(leader of brownshirts) homosexual
>> o Lutz			(leader of brownshirts) one eye
>> o Himmler		Hypochondriac, neurotic
>> o Streicher		(editor Der Sturmer) sex pervert
>> o Ley			(labor front) drunk, speech defect,dull-witted
>> o Bormann		(party secretary) alcoholic
>> o Goring		morphine addict
>> o von Ribbentrop	(foreign minister) Stupid, vile, vindictive


From redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk Fri Nov  1 09:09:33 PST 1996
Article: 78099 of alt.revisionism
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From: redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:01:03 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com (Sara the Prefect) wrote:

Miss Prefect wrote all the stuff below my comments - showing how she
had been trying to get Mr Giwer censored, and banned from his new ISP.
My comment.

Well Miss Prrefect, you certainly live up to your title. Are you in
"The land of the free - the home of the brave?" Do you accept the idea
of free speech? It is clear that you do not. But to go as far as you
have, sneakily whining to a man's ISP behind his back. Aren't you
ashamed of yourself? What you have done is so low, so very low, and
despicable. He was only speaking his mind on usenet, not causing
actual bodily harm. People like you stagger me with their
vindictiveness that is aimed at all who don't crawl to them. Your
slimey actions make me want to puke over you, you really are so vile
that I cannot think of words to describe your repulsiveness. Tell me,
do you think that you behave in the way that Jews in Germany did in
the 1930's and 1940's. It would explain a lot.
I try very hard to mentally put myself in your position, to think the
way you do and understand the behaviour of you and others like you. I
fail, because I haven't the requisite viciousness and because I know
what would happen to me if I did act "your way". I really do fear for
the well-being of people who act the way that you do. For I have
observed that such actions provoke nasty reactions. It has happened
before many times to elitist, arrogant, greedy, cruel groups who find
themselves in an advantageous postion. They get swatted. The Ebo
tribe, who were tall, had their legs chopped off at the knee by the
Tutsis. Did they deserve it? Of course not, but human nature dictates
that these things happen. 

Now, I do not know Mr Giwer, but I hereby make it publicly known that
if necessary, in the interests of free speech, if he so wishes, his
postings can be posted using my account here in the UK,  or that of
friends of mine in Ireland, Switzerland, Norway and Italy. He will
speak.

Fergus McClelland


=======================================================
MISS PREFECT'S ADMISSION OF SLIMEY TROUBLE MAKING
=======================================================
>This is true. That's why they wrote ME the following:
>
>X-Sender: security@pop.gate.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 10:11:07 -0400
>To: schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)
>From: Security Administrator 
>Subject: Re: Revenue Canada Investigates JEWISH CHARITIES
>
>We have warned this user about violations against the CyberGate Subscriber's
>Agreement.  Repeated violations may cause the cancellation of this account.
>
>Teresa Israels

Is this lady Welsh by any chance?
======================================
SARA PREFECT'S LETTER TO GATE NET

>At 11:01 PM 10/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Dear Sir:
>> 
>>This is to inform you that your subscriber, whose name is Matt Giwer, has
>>joined up with your service after being kicked off combase, netcom, and
>>worldnet.att.net.
>> 
>>He engages in slander, mail-bombing, forges posts, and other attractive
>>behavior. His current "name" here is a blatant attempt to try and trick the
>>non-observant into believing that he is Ken McVay
>>(kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC), the Webmaster of the Nizkor
>>Holocaust web site. His excuse to worldnet ("I didn't spell the name the
>>same way, so it's not forgery,") didn't sit very well with them, and I hope
>>will not sit well with you either.
>> 
>> 
>>Sara Schwartz
>>schwartz@infinet.com
>>
>>In article <54ol1v$1ofs@news.gate.net>, kmcveigh@oneb.almanac.dc.ac wrote:
>>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>===========================================================================
>Security Administrator                             1301 W. Newport Ctr. Dr.
>CyberGate, Inc.                                   Deerfield Beach, FL 44332
>security@gate.net                                       954-428-4283 x 8070
>
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
>




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