The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/l/lockhart.joe/1998/lockhart.9805


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Fri May  1 18:50:53 EDT 1998
Article: 228351 of can.politics
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Conform private members bill making "possession" of "hate literature" a crime.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:44:14 -0700
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Open Letter to Mr. Art Hanger: 

Reform Party's Justice critic. 
Art Hanger

HangerA@parl.gc.ca

April 29, 1998

RE: Your private members bill making "possession" of "hate literature" a
crime.

Dear Mr. Hanger

	I would like some clarification of your possible private members bill. 
	Now I realize the Conform Party would like to refute the liberal notion
that you're just a bunch of ‘extremist,' or ‘bigots.' By pandering to
the liberals, all you're doing is proving that your not a true
alternative to eastern politics, and that you're just like the rest of
them. I would also like to remind you that if this bill is passed, how
much Reform Party literature will be deemed by your opponents as‘hate'
literature?
	I have some serious concerns about the implication of the private
members bill. Could you please answer the following questions.

1)	 Who is going to determine what is ‘hate' literature? The B'nai
Brith, or the Canadian Jewish Congress perhaps?
2)	 Are books like Malcolm X which is sold over the counter, and calls
White people devils, also going to be called ‘hate' or will it and books
like it be exempt? 
3)	Will Schindler's List and other hollow-cost books be banned because
they promote hatred against Germans, or will they be exempt?
4)	Will the target of this bill (like current legislation) be primarily
Whites or Christians? Will Muslims, Jew, and other minority religions be
allowed to spread hatred with impunity and be exempt for this law?
5)	If the Conform Party is so against gun control, why are you in favor
of thought control?
6)	Will the Conform Party further allow the establishment of The
Department of Federal Book Burning? 
7)	Will the Bible be banned because it's considered, homophobic, sexist,
racist and anti-Semitic?

	Mr. Hanger I don't think you realize just what kind of can of worms
you're opening up. You may not realize that if this is passed, it will,
as other so-called ‘hate' legislation has in the past, been used to
oppress dissenting views. I don't know what kind of Canada you want to
live in Mr. Hanger, but my Canada includes my God given right to read
material that may offend the B'nai Brith.  
	 I know the Conform Party must do what is politically correct in order
to get votes. If you and Preston Manning maintain this slippery slope of
main-stream politics, you're just as guilty as selling out your
constituents as the rest of them. It will be a shame to the memories of
our  Forefathers that fought, bled and died, if their children have to
read material approved by some special interest minority group, or by
the state. 
	Welcome to Kanada comrade.

Joseph Lockhart

Research Director
Euro-Christian Defence League

P.O. Box 345  
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6
(204) 775-0878


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Mon May  4 20:51:15 EDT 1998
Article: 172982 of alt.revisionism
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:15:36 -0700
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Subject: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: 2 May 1998 17:43:38 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general, alt.revisionism
 Followup-To:  alt.revisionism

Ken McVay:

"In order to consider that question, we need to ask ourselves this one:
If the Holocaust deniers are correct, who is wrong?

To insist that millions of Jews were not murdered is to, out of hand,
charge every Jew in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a truly
massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and hatred.
The act of Holocaust denial and the ugliness of racial or cultural
hatred
cannot be divorced."

ECDL:

One must remember Mr. McVay that not all Jews promote the "hollow-cost." 
By stating the hollow-cost is a hoax is only challenging those who
promote it.
Is it your submission McVay that ‘all' Jews believe in the holocaust? 
The only people McVay that are, subjected to contempt, ridicule and
hatred, 
are those that shamelessly promote the hatred contempt and ridicule of
the
German people and Christians. It is a pure hatred McVay to blackmail
generations of people
based on lies that have no scientific backing. That McVay is the hate. 

Let's use McVay's logic for a second. 

If it is correct that to deny the holocaust is really a subterfuge for
hating Jews, then the same could be said for the denial of Jesus Christ.
Since the Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, they must be ‘haters' of
all Christian, and by their act of Christ denial, is to, "...out of
hand, charge every Christian in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a
truly massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and
hatred."

Thank you Mr. McVay, couldn't have said it better myself.

Ken McVay:

"...Good point... my experience suggests that Canada's Jewish community
is
split right down the middle on the issue of employing the Criminal
Code or Canadian Human Rights Act to proscribe speech. The activists,
however, those who support such actions, seem to be the most vocal
expressing their belief."

ECDL:

Really... name one Jew (involved in Canadian politics) who backs free
speech?
As well McVay, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the B'nai Brith, both
who claim to speak for Canadian Jews, have been at the forefront, or
interveners in almost every court case that have curtailed our so-called
freedom of speech. 


Ken McVay:

"...Many I have met, however, are clearly torn between a desire to
encourage free speech and the pain engendered in the denial of a very
real historical event - one which touched Jews as it touched no
others."

ECDL:

Oh yes, I forgot.. Only Jews have suffered...

Ken McVay:

"Truth is not a strong suit when it comes to Holocaust deniers... they
change their realities like the rest of us change our socks. On the
issue of Holocaust denial itself, I submit, we find a perfect
illustration of their duplicity..." 

ECDL:

This McVay can also be said about the so-called hollow-cost story. 
Jews turned into soap, lamp-shades, a witness in court who could tell
 what kind of Jew was being burned my the
colour of the smoke coming out of the smokestack or some rubbish like
that.


Ken McVay:

"While I am opposed to the laws respecting Holocaust denial in Germany
and elsewhere, and do not want such laws in Canada, I think that I can
understand why Germany and Austria, in particular, enacted such laws."

ECDL:

But as you have stated McVay, you would not lose sleep if Zundel was
deported
to a jail in Germany, just because he asked the question, "Did Six
Million Really Die?"
So much for your one-sided fight for free speech.

Ken McVay:

"...Such silliness - albeit of the sort one comes to expect when dealing
with Holocaust denial - I know a lot of Jews in Canada who say
negative things about Israel, and I know a lot of non-Jews who do as
well.... none of them have, er, "had it."

ECDL:

As I watched about thirty seconds of the so-called celebration of the
birth of Israel, one
could not help but ask; what are they celebrating?
Are they celebrating 50 years of death toucher murder bloodshed and
genocide of the
Palestinian people? Or are they celebrating the fact that Israel was (as
Jews admit) born out of the ashes of the holocaust.  So we see thanks to
Adolf Hitler McVay, the hollow-cost has profited many people. Included
the state of Isr-lie.

As a footnote McVay, just remember the words of Sol Littman.

The letter, written under the Simon Wiesenthal Center's letterhead,
contained the following text, in part:

"On whose side are McVay and his cohorts on? For some time I have
wondered
why B'nai Brith continues to give him a platform when he avidly proposes
policies which our respective agencies oppose. His site provides
automatic
links with almost all of the major Holocaust deniers - all in the name
of
free speech!

"Let's face it, McVay is a quirky loose cannon whose usefulness is
almost over. If it weren't for B'nai Brith he would be out of
business.

"Sincerely,
[signed]
Sol Littman"

Face it McVay, you're just a goy like the rest of us. 
____

Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6
ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Mon May  4 20:51:16 EDT 1998
Article: 173142 of alt.revisionism
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:22:46 -0700
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Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: 3 May 1998 16:55:04 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups:  can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general, alt.revisionism


In article <354C0B47.3209@mb.sympatico.ca>,
Joseph Lockhart   wrote:

Ken McVay:

What is the "hollow-cost," Mr. Lockhart?

ECDL:

Look up the words in a dictionary McVay.
Hollow = lacking real worth, truth, or significance; worthless or false;

I have asked (as well as others) did the Germans re-invent physics?
To this date that question has never been answered.

Cost = the price paid

Just how many billions have been paid in blackmail money to the
so-called survivors?
Why is there so many female survivors when the story is they were killed
as soon as they arrived?


>By stating the hollow-cost is a hoax is only challenging those who
>promote it.
								
Ken McVay:
"Promote it," Mr. Lockhart? It is a part of our history - get used to
it. It stands of and by itself, and needs no "promotion."

ECDL

If it ‘stands of and by itself, and needs no "promotion" McVay, why does
it need you?
If it is a part of history, it should be up to scrutiny. After all,
two-thousand years
after the fact we still debate the existence of Jesus Christ. Nobody is
called a Christian hater
a Nazi, have his house burned down, or sent to jail because he asked a
question;
"Did Jesus Christ Really Exist?"  Why is the holocaust different Mr.
McVay?

Promotion: the act or process of furthering the development, growth, or
acceptance
of something. 

This definition fits perfectly; just ask all of the people who have
endlessly written books, movies, plays, umpteen hundred times. Is this
not as you accuse Zundel of ‘selling hate for profit.?'
And yes it is hate McVay, hatred of an entire ethic group of people.
Shame on you for defending it.

The promotion of the holocaust is a booming business McVay. After all,
you're not shelving milk any more because you now ‘defend' the
holocaust. Are you not ‘profiting' from the alleged murder of God's
self-proclaimed chosen ones? 

Just remember the big lie theory McVay. If you tell a lie long enough,
soon it will become fact. Even though there is not one bit of forensic
proof. To promote the holocaust is to further promot the acceptance of
it. In our world today McVay one is a heretic for not believing the
religion called holocaust. 

>Is it your submission McVay that ‘all' Jews believe in the holocaust? 
>The only people McVay that are, subjected to contempt, ridicule and
>hatred,  are those that shamelessly promote the hatred contempt and ridicule of
>the German people and Christians. It is a pure hatred McVay to blackmail
>generations of people based on lies that have no scientific backing. That McVay is the hate. 


Ken McVay:

Mr. Lockhart, if you wish to examine and challenge the scientific
basis for the history of the event, by all means do so -
alt.revisionism exists for that purpose. I trust you will do so soon -
after several years of waiting for you to do that, I must say you've
been very disappointing in your failure.

ECDL:

True to form, McVay refuses to set the record straight a supply the
scientific proof of the holocaust. Instead he will sugest we go to the
sewer called alt.revisionism. 
McVay, I have in the past been on alt.revisioism. When I asked a
question all I every received was ridicule for being a ‘Nazi apologist.'
I can see why Zundel won't waste his time in the sewer called
alt.revisionism. If I wanted to be called names I would go back to
kindergarten. 


Ken McVay:

Do "all Jews" believe in the Holocaust? I have no idea, Mr. Lockhart -
perhaps you should ask them, and let us know.

ECDL:

That's an interesting statement McVay, considering it's your belief
that:
 "...is to, out of hand, charge EVERY Jew in the world with conspiracy
and fraud on a truly
massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and hatred."
(Emphases added)

Every Jew in the world McVay? Is every Jew in the world feeling the
hatred you talk about?
Rather narcissistic of your to speak for all Jews McVay. Why don't you
do a poll and let us know.


Ken McVay:

Who is it that you maintain "promote the hatred contempt and ridicule"
of Germans and Christians?

ECDL:

Asked and answered.


ECDL:
>Let's use McVay's logic for a second. 
>
>If it is correct that to deny the holocaust is really a subterfuge for
>hating Jews, then the same could be said for the denial of Jesus Christ.
>Since the Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, they must be ‘haters' of
>all Christian, and by their act of Christ denial, is to, "...out of
>hand, charge every Christian in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a
>truly massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and
>hatred."

Ken McVay:

If you are going to use my logic, Mr. Lockhart, you are going to have
to understand it first. Let me know when you've figured it out, and we
can discuss it.

ECDL:

McVay, you should have been a hockey player, you stick-handled that one.
Why don't you just answer the question?  If asking a question regarding
the
so-called hollow-cost is akin to hatred of Jews, why is the denial of
Christ
not akin to the hatred of Christians?

Please McVay, we await your response?

The rest of my post was not answered by McVay. I don't want to get into
a
big discussion on usernet. I will ask the following questions that
McVay,
or any other person on alt.revisionism may wish to answer.

1) Did the Germans re-invent physics? 

2) What was the actual numbers of bodies cremated in one day? 

3) If in 1998, the capacity of a crematorium according a local funeral
director is 1 body every 3 hours,  how could the crematoriums (of older
technology 1943)  be burning 12,000 per day? (Or over 100 per hour each)

4) As well, this local operator of a crematorium stated on a radio
talk-show that no crematorium can burn a bodies down to ashes. Where is
all of the bones, or who was crushing all of the bones down to so-called
ashes?

5) Where is there any forensic evidence that any homicidal gas chamber
exist today in Poland?

6) Where is there any forensic evidence that any crematorium was capable
of burning over 100 bodies per hour? (What was the actual body per hour
count McVay?)

7) With what were the bodies being burned with? Air photographs show no
piles of coal, or any other substance used to cremate 4 million bodies.
Yes I realize the body count went down to 1.5 million. BTW what is the
number today?

8) If your so convinced that your right McVay; I will make you an offer.
Lets settle this once and for all. I call for a world wide live debate
on CBC. You present your point of view, Zundel will present his. If you
win, Zundel should be deported to Germany. If he wins, you can go back
to shelving milk at a local 7-11 store, AFTER you've apologized to every
German man woman and child you've helped to defame. 

________

Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Mon May  4 20:51:44 EDT 1998
Article: 117632 of can.general
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!europa.clark.net!205.197.251.110!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!cyclone.mbnet.mb.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.mts.net!not-for-mail
From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:15:36 -0700
Organization: MTS Internet Services
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Subject: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: 2 May 1998 17:43:38 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general, alt.revisionism
 Followup-To:  alt.revisionism

Ken McVay:

"In order to consider that question, we need to ask ourselves this one:
If the Holocaust deniers are correct, who is wrong?

To insist that millions of Jews were not murdered is to, out of hand,
charge every Jew in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a truly
massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and hatred.
The act of Holocaust denial and the ugliness of racial or cultural
hatred
cannot be divorced."

ECDL:

One must remember Mr. McVay that not all Jews promote the "hollow-cost." 
By stating the hollow-cost is a hoax is only challenging those who
promote it.
Is it your submission McVay that ‘all' Jews believe in the holocaust? 
The only people McVay that are, subjected to contempt, ridicule and
hatred, 
are those that shamelessly promote the hatred contempt and ridicule of
the
German people and Christians. It is a pure hatred McVay to blackmail
generations of people
based on lies that have no scientific backing. That McVay is the hate. 

Let's use McVay's logic for a second. 

If it is correct that to deny the holocaust is really a subterfuge for
hating Jews, then the same could be said for the denial of Jesus Christ.
Since the Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, they must be ‘haters' of
all Christian, and by their act of Christ denial, is to, "...out of
hand, charge every Christian in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a
truly massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and
hatred."

Thank you Mr. McVay, couldn't have said it better myself.

Ken McVay:

"...Good point... my experience suggests that Canada's Jewish community
is
split right down the middle on the issue of employing the Criminal
Code or Canadian Human Rights Act to proscribe speech. The activists,
however, those who support such actions, seem to be the most vocal
expressing their belief."

ECDL:

Really... name one Jew (involved in Canadian politics) who backs free
speech?
As well McVay, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the B'nai Brith, both
who claim to speak for Canadian Jews, have been at the forefront, or
interveners in almost every court case that have curtailed our so-called
freedom of speech. 


Ken McVay:

"...Many I have met, however, are clearly torn between a desire to
encourage free speech and the pain engendered in the denial of a very
real historical event - one which touched Jews as it touched no
others."

ECDL:

Oh yes, I forgot.. Only Jews have suffered...

Ken McVay:

"Truth is not a strong suit when it comes to Holocaust deniers... they
change their realities like the rest of us change our socks. On the
issue of Holocaust denial itself, I submit, we find a perfect
illustration of their duplicity..." 

ECDL:

This McVay can also be said about the so-called hollow-cost story. 
Jews turned into soap, lamp-shades, a witness in court who could tell
 what kind of Jew was being burned my the
colour of the smoke coming out of the smokestack or some rubbish like
that.


Ken McVay:

"While I am opposed to the laws respecting Holocaust denial in Germany
and elsewhere, and do not want such laws in Canada, I think that I can
understand why Germany and Austria, in particular, enacted such laws."

ECDL:

But as you have stated McVay, you would not lose sleep if Zundel was
deported
to a jail in Germany, just because he asked the question, "Did Six
Million Really Die?"
So much for your one-sided fight for free speech.

Ken McVay:

"...Such silliness - albeit of the sort one comes to expect when dealing
with Holocaust denial - I know a lot of Jews in Canada who say
negative things about Israel, and I know a lot of non-Jews who do as
well.... none of them have, er, "had it."

ECDL:

As I watched about thirty seconds of the so-called celebration of the
birth of Israel, one
could not help but ask; what are they celebrating?
Are they celebrating 50 years of death toucher murder bloodshed and
genocide of the
Palestinian people? Or are they celebrating the fact that Israel was (as
Jews admit) born out of the ashes of the holocaust.  So we see thanks to
Adolf Hitler McVay, the hollow-cost has profited many people. Included
the state of Isr-lie.

As a footnote McVay, just remember the words of Sol Littman.

The letter, written under the Simon Wiesenthal Center's letterhead,
contained the following text, in part:

"On whose side are McVay and his cohorts on? For some time I have
wondered
why B'nai Brith continues to give him a platform when he avidly proposes
policies which our respective agencies oppose. His site provides
automatic
links with almost all of the major Holocaust deniers - all in the name
of
free speech!

"Let's face it, McVay is a quirky loose cannon whose usefulness is
almost over. If it weren't for B'nai Brith he would be out of
business.

"Sincerely,
[signed]
Sol Littman"

Face it McVay, you're just a goy like the rest of us. 
____

Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6
ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Mon May  4 20:51:44 EDT 1998
Article: 117672 of can.general
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.mbnet.mb.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.mts.net!not-for-mail
From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:22:46 -0700
Organization: MTS Internet Services
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Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: 3 May 1998 16:55:04 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups:  can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general, alt.revisionism


In article <354C0B47.3209@mb.sympatico.ca>,
Joseph Lockhart   wrote:

Ken McVay:

What is the "hollow-cost," Mr. Lockhart?

ECDL:

Look up the words in a dictionary McVay.
Hollow = lacking real worth, truth, or significance; worthless or false;

I have asked (as well as others) did the Germans re-invent physics?
To this date that question has never been answered.

Cost = the price paid

Just how many billions have been paid in blackmail money to the
so-called survivors?
Why is there so many female survivors when the story is they were killed
as soon as they arrived?


>By stating the hollow-cost is a hoax is only challenging those who
>promote it.
								
Ken McVay:
"Promote it," Mr. Lockhart? It is a part of our history - get used to
it. It stands of and by itself, and needs no "promotion."

ECDL

If it ‘stands of and by itself, and needs no "promotion" McVay, why does
it need you?
If it is a part of history, it should be up to scrutiny. After all,
two-thousand years
after the fact we still debate the existence of Jesus Christ. Nobody is
called a Christian hater
a Nazi, have his house burned down, or sent to jail because he asked a
question;
"Did Jesus Christ Really Exist?"  Why is the holocaust different Mr.
McVay?

Promotion: the act or process of furthering the development, growth, or
acceptance
of something. 

This definition fits perfectly; just ask all of the people who have
endlessly written books, movies, plays, umpteen hundred times. Is this
not as you accuse Zundel of ‘selling hate for profit.?'
And yes it is hate McVay, hatred of an entire ethic group of people.
Shame on you for defending it.

The promotion of the holocaust is a booming business McVay. After all,
you're not shelving milk any more because you now ‘defend' the
holocaust. Are you not ‘profiting' from the alleged murder of God's
self-proclaimed chosen ones? 

Just remember the big lie theory McVay. If you tell a lie long enough,
soon it will become fact. Even though there is not one bit of forensic
proof. To promote the holocaust is to further promot the acceptance of
it. In our world today McVay one is a heretic for not believing the
religion called holocaust. 

>Is it your submission McVay that ‘all' Jews believe in the holocaust? 
>The only people McVay that are, subjected to contempt, ridicule and
>hatred,  are those that shamelessly promote the hatred contempt and ridicule of
>the German people and Christians. It is a pure hatred McVay to blackmail
>generations of people based on lies that have no scientific backing. That McVay is the hate. 


Ken McVay:

Mr. Lockhart, if you wish to examine and challenge the scientific
basis for the history of the event, by all means do so -
alt.revisionism exists for that purpose. I trust you will do so soon -
after several years of waiting for you to do that, I must say you've
been very disappointing in your failure.

ECDL:

True to form, McVay refuses to set the record straight a supply the
scientific proof of the holocaust. Instead he will sugest we go to the
sewer called alt.revisionism. 
McVay, I have in the past been on alt.revisioism. When I asked a
question all I every received was ridicule for being a ‘Nazi apologist.'
I can see why Zundel won't waste his time in the sewer called
alt.revisionism. If I wanted to be called names I would go back to
kindergarten. 


Ken McVay:

Do "all Jews" believe in the Holocaust? I have no idea, Mr. Lockhart -
perhaps you should ask them, and let us know.

ECDL:

That's an interesting statement McVay, considering it's your belief
that:
 "...is to, out of hand, charge EVERY Jew in the world with conspiracy
and fraud on a truly
massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and hatred."
(Emphases added)

Every Jew in the world McVay? Is every Jew in the world feeling the
hatred you talk about?
Rather narcissistic of your to speak for all Jews McVay. Why don't you
do a poll and let us know.


Ken McVay:

Who is it that you maintain "promote the hatred contempt and ridicule"
of Germans and Christians?

ECDL:

Asked and answered.


ECDL:
>Let's use McVay's logic for a second. 
>
>If it is correct that to deny the holocaust is really a subterfuge for
>hating Jews, then the same could be said for the denial of Jesus Christ.
>Since the Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, they must be ‘haters' of
>all Christian, and by their act of Christ denial, is to, "...out of
>hand, charge every Christian in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a
>truly massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and
>hatred."

Ken McVay:

If you are going to use my logic, Mr. Lockhart, you are going to have
to understand it first. Let me know when you've figured it out, and we
can discuss it.

ECDL:

McVay, you should have been a hockey player, you stick-handled that one.
Why don't you just answer the question?  If asking a question regarding
the
so-called hollow-cost is akin to hatred of Jews, why is the denial of
Christ
not akin to the hatred of Christians?

Please McVay, we await your response?

The rest of my post was not answered by McVay. I don't want to get into
a
big discussion on usernet. I will ask the following questions that
McVay,
or any other person on alt.revisionism may wish to answer.

1) Did the Germans re-invent physics? 

2) What was the actual numbers of bodies cremated in one day? 

3) If in 1998, the capacity of a crematorium according a local funeral
director is 1 body every 3 hours,  how could the crematoriums (of older
technology 1943)  be burning 12,000 per day? (Or over 100 per hour each)

4) As well, this local operator of a crematorium stated on a radio
talk-show that no crematorium can burn a bodies down to ashes. Where is
all of the bones, or who was crushing all of the bones down to so-called
ashes?

5) Where is there any forensic evidence that any homicidal gas chamber
exist today in Poland?

6) Where is there any forensic evidence that any crematorium was capable
of burning over 100 bodies per hour? (What was the actual body per hour
count McVay?)

7) With what were the bodies being burned with? Air photographs show no
piles of coal, or any other substance used to cremate 4 million bodies.
Yes I realize the body count went down to 1.5 million. BTW what is the
number today?

8) If your so convinced that your right McVay; I will make you an offer.
Lets settle this once and for all. I call for a world wide live debate
on CBC. You present your point of view, Zundel will present his. If you
win, Zundel should be deported to Germany. If he wins, you can go back
to shelving milk at a local 7-11 store, AFTER you've apologized to every
German man woman and child you've helped to defame. 

________

Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Mon May  4 20:53:27 EDT 1998
Article: 228577 of can.politics
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:15:36 -0700
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Subject: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: 2 May 1998 17:43:38 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general, alt.revisionism
 Followup-To:  alt.revisionism

Ken McVay:

"In order to consider that question, we need to ask ourselves this one:
If the Holocaust deniers are correct, who is wrong?

To insist that millions of Jews were not murdered is to, out of hand,
charge every Jew in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a truly
massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and hatred.
The act of Holocaust denial and the ugliness of racial or cultural
hatred
cannot be divorced."

ECDL:

One must remember Mr. McVay that not all Jews promote the "hollow-cost." 
By stating the hollow-cost is a hoax is only challenging those who
promote it.
Is it your submission McVay that ‘all' Jews believe in the holocaust? 
The only people McVay that are, subjected to contempt, ridicule and
hatred, 
are those that shamelessly promote the hatred contempt and ridicule of
the
German people and Christians. It is a pure hatred McVay to blackmail
generations of people
based on lies that have no scientific backing. That McVay is the hate. 

Let's use McVay's logic for a second. 

If it is correct that to deny the holocaust is really a subterfuge for
hating Jews, then the same could be said for the denial of Jesus Christ.
Since the Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, they must be ‘haters' of
all Christian, and by their act of Christ denial, is to, "...out of
hand, charge every Christian in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a
truly massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and
hatred."

Thank you Mr. McVay, couldn't have said it better myself.

Ken McVay:

"...Good point... my experience suggests that Canada's Jewish community
is
split right down the middle on the issue of employing the Criminal
Code or Canadian Human Rights Act to proscribe speech. The activists,
however, those who support such actions, seem to be the most vocal
expressing their belief."

ECDL:

Really... name one Jew (involved in Canadian politics) who backs free
speech?
As well McVay, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the B'nai Brith, both
who claim to speak for Canadian Jews, have been at the forefront, or
interveners in almost every court case that have curtailed our so-called
freedom of speech. 


Ken McVay:

"...Many I have met, however, are clearly torn between a desire to
encourage free speech and the pain engendered in the denial of a very
real historical event - one which touched Jews as it touched no
others."

ECDL:

Oh yes, I forgot.. Only Jews have suffered...

Ken McVay:

"Truth is not a strong suit when it comes to Holocaust deniers... they
change their realities like the rest of us change our socks. On the
issue of Holocaust denial itself, I submit, we find a perfect
illustration of their duplicity..." 

ECDL:

This McVay can also be said about the so-called hollow-cost story. 
Jews turned into soap, lamp-shades, a witness in court who could tell
 what kind of Jew was being burned my the
colour of the smoke coming out of the smokestack or some rubbish like
that.


Ken McVay:

"While I am opposed to the laws respecting Holocaust denial in Germany
and elsewhere, and do not want such laws in Canada, I think that I can
understand why Germany and Austria, in particular, enacted such laws."

ECDL:

But as you have stated McVay, you would not lose sleep if Zundel was
deported
to a jail in Germany, just because he asked the question, "Did Six
Million Really Die?"
So much for your one-sided fight for free speech.

Ken McVay:

"...Such silliness - albeit of the sort one comes to expect when dealing
with Holocaust denial - I know a lot of Jews in Canada who say
negative things about Israel, and I know a lot of non-Jews who do as
well.... none of them have, er, "had it."

ECDL:

As I watched about thirty seconds of the so-called celebration of the
birth of Israel, one
could not help but ask; what are they celebrating?
Are they celebrating 50 years of death toucher murder bloodshed and
genocide of the
Palestinian people? Or are they celebrating the fact that Israel was (as
Jews admit) born out of the ashes of the holocaust.  So we see thanks to
Adolf Hitler McVay, the hollow-cost has profited many people. Included
the state of Isr-lie.

As a footnote McVay, just remember the words of Sol Littman.

The letter, written under the Simon Wiesenthal Center's letterhead,
contained the following text, in part:

"On whose side are McVay and his cohorts on? For some time I have
wondered
why B'nai Brith continues to give him a platform when he avidly proposes
policies which our respective agencies oppose. His site provides
automatic
links with almost all of the major Holocaust deniers - all in the name
of
free speech!

"Let's face it, McVay is a quirky loose cannon whose usefulness is
almost over. If it weren't for B'nai Brith he would be out of
business.

"Sincerely,
[signed]
Sol Littman"

Face it McVay, you're just a goy like the rest of us. 
____

Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6
ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Mon May  4 20:53:27 EDT 1998
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:22:46 -0700
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Subject: Re: Holocaust denial is hatred
Date: 3 May 1998 16:55:04 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups:  can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general, alt.revisionism


In article <354C0B47.3209@mb.sympatico.ca>,
Joseph Lockhart   wrote:

Ken McVay:

What is the "hollow-cost," Mr. Lockhart?

ECDL:

Look up the words in a dictionary McVay.
Hollow = lacking real worth, truth, or significance; worthless or false;

I have asked (as well as others) did the Germans re-invent physics?
To this date that question has never been answered.

Cost = the price paid

Just how many billions have been paid in blackmail money to the
so-called survivors?
Why is there so many female survivors when the story is they were killed
as soon as they arrived?


>By stating the hollow-cost is a hoax is only challenging those who
>promote it.
								
Ken McVay:
"Promote it," Mr. Lockhart? It is a part of our history - get used to
it. It stands of and by itself, and needs no "promotion."

ECDL

If it ‘stands of and by itself, and needs no "promotion" McVay, why does
it need you?
If it is a part of history, it should be up to scrutiny. After all,
two-thousand years
after the fact we still debate the existence of Jesus Christ. Nobody is
called a Christian hater
a Nazi, have his house burned down, or sent to jail because he asked a
question;
"Did Jesus Christ Really Exist?"  Why is the holocaust different Mr.
McVay?

Promotion: the act or process of furthering the development, growth, or
acceptance
of something. 

This definition fits perfectly; just ask all of the people who have
endlessly written books, movies, plays, umpteen hundred times. Is this
not as you accuse Zundel of ‘selling hate for profit.?'
And yes it is hate McVay, hatred of an entire ethic group of people.
Shame on you for defending it.

The promotion of the holocaust is a booming business McVay. After all,
you're not shelving milk any more because you now ‘defend' the
holocaust. Are you not ‘profiting' from the alleged murder of God's
self-proclaimed chosen ones? 

Just remember the big lie theory McVay. If you tell a lie long enough,
soon it will become fact. Even though there is not one bit of forensic
proof. To promote the holocaust is to further promot the acceptance of
it. In our world today McVay one is a heretic for not believing the
religion called holocaust. 

>Is it your submission McVay that ‘all' Jews believe in the holocaust? 
>The only people McVay that are, subjected to contempt, ridicule and
>hatred,  are those that shamelessly promote the hatred contempt and ridicule of
>the German people and Christians. It is a pure hatred McVay to blackmail
>generations of people based on lies that have no scientific backing. That McVay is the hate. 


Ken McVay:

Mr. Lockhart, if you wish to examine and challenge the scientific
basis for the history of the event, by all means do so -
alt.revisionism exists for that purpose. I trust you will do so soon -
after several years of waiting for you to do that, I must say you've
been very disappointing in your failure.

ECDL:

True to form, McVay refuses to set the record straight a supply the
scientific proof of the holocaust. Instead he will sugest we go to the
sewer called alt.revisionism. 
McVay, I have in the past been on alt.revisioism. When I asked a
question all I every received was ridicule for being a ‘Nazi apologist.'
I can see why Zundel won't waste his time in the sewer called
alt.revisionism. If I wanted to be called names I would go back to
kindergarten. 


Ken McVay:

Do "all Jews" believe in the Holocaust? I have no idea, Mr. Lockhart -
perhaps you should ask them, and let us know.

ECDL:

That's an interesting statement McVay, considering it's your belief
that:
 "...is to, out of hand, charge EVERY Jew in the world with conspiracy
and fraud on a truly
massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and hatred."
(Emphases added)

Every Jew in the world McVay? Is every Jew in the world feeling the
hatred you talk about?
Rather narcissistic of your to speak for all Jews McVay. Why don't you
do a poll and let us know.


Ken McVay:

Who is it that you maintain "promote the hatred contempt and ridicule"
of Germans and Christians?

ECDL:

Asked and answered.


ECDL:
>Let's use McVay's logic for a second. 
>
>If it is correct that to deny the holocaust is really a subterfuge for
>hating Jews, then the same could be said for the denial of Jesus Christ.
>Since the Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, they must be ‘haters' of
>all Christian, and by their act of Christ denial, is to, "...out of
>hand, charge every Christian in the world with conspiracy and fraud on a
>truly massive scale, and to subject them to contempt, ridicule and
>hatred."

Ken McVay:

If you are going to use my logic, Mr. Lockhart, you are going to have
to understand it first. Let me know when you've figured it out, and we
can discuss it.

ECDL:

McVay, you should have been a hockey player, you stick-handled that one.
Why don't you just answer the question?  If asking a question regarding
the
so-called hollow-cost is akin to hatred of Jews, why is the denial of
Christ
not akin to the hatred of Christians?

Please McVay, we await your response?

The rest of my post was not answered by McVay. I don't want to get into
a
big discussion on usernet. I will ask the following questions that
McVay,
or any other person on alt.revisionism may wish to answer.

1) Did the Germans re-invent physics? 

2) What was the actual numbers of bodies cremated in one day? 

3) If in 1998, the capacity of a crematorium according a local funeral
director is 1 body every 3 hours,  how could the crematoriums (of older
technology 1943)  be burning 12,000 per day? (Or over 100 per hour each)

4) As well, this local operator of a crematorium stated on a radio
talk-show that no crematorium can burn a bodies down to ashes. Where is
all of the bones, or who was crushing all of the bones down to so-called
ashes?

5) Where is there any forensic evidence that any homicidal gas chamber
exist today in Poland?

6) Where is there any forensic evidence that any crematorium was capable
of burning over 100 bodies per hour? (What was the actual body per hour
count McVay?)

7) With what were the bodies being burned with? Air photographs show no
piles of coal, or any other substance used to cremate 4 million bodies.
Yes I realize the body count went down to 1.5 million. BTW what is the
number today?

8) If your so convinced that your right McVay; I will make you an offer.
Lets settle this once and for all. I call for a world wide live debate
on CBC. You present your point of view, Zundel will present his. If you
win, Zundel should be deported to Germany. If he wins, you can go back
to shelving milk at a local 7-11 store, AFTER you've apologized to every
German man woman and child you've helped to defame. 

________

Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6


From ecdl@mb.sympatico.ca Fri May  8 19:12:56 EDT 1998
Article: 229030 of can.politics
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Remedy for Libel
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:51:50 -0700
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Subject: Remedy for Libel
Date: 5 May 1998 00:23:31 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization:  The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
 Newsgroups:  can.politics
 References:  1 , 2 , 3 , 4


It seems that Mr. McVay know as little about the criminal code as
he does about physics. 

Ken McVay:

"The criminal code does offer remedy, via criminal defamation. Your
comment about remedy against assault applies here as well - you can
take your complaint to the appropriate authorities (as I recently
did), but you cannot lay the charge."

ECDL:

Wrong McVay, you as a private citizen HAVE the right to do what is
called
"lay an information."

S504 of the criminal code reads that ANY ONE who, on reasonable grounds,
believes that a person has committed an indictable offence may lay an
information in writing and under oath before a justice, and the justice
shall receive the information, where it is alleged... (Emphasis added)

For the complete section, get yourself a copy of the criminal code.

Due read the criminal code before you make foolish statements McVay.

___________

"Let's face it, McVay is a quirky loose cannon whose usefulness is
almost over. If it weren't for B'nai Brith he would be out of
business.

"Sincerely,
[signed]
Sol Littman"
  
_________

Just remember McVay, you're just a goy like the rest of us...


Euro-Christian Defence League
P.O. Box 345
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3C 2H6


From ecdlGHF@mb.sympatico.ca Thu May 21 18:14:09 EDT 1998
Article: 118602 of can.general
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: bc.politics,bc.general,van.general,ont.general,tor.general,can.politics,can.general,ab.general,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Remove GOD From the Canadian Constitution!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:30:47 -0700
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"You have until August 1998. This fall Burnaby MP Svend Robinson will
present the petition to the House of Commons." 


Ah yes... good old Svend... I'm not surprised..

This is a man that believes  the following:

1) He believes that a woman should have the right to murder her baby
under the guise of ‘choice.'

2) He believes that we should have the right to murder grandma and
grandpa under the guise of ‘assisted suicide.'

3) He was in favor of a private members bill that would lower the
consent age of anal penetration from 18 to 14.  Good for him, because
now he is in a relationship with a man alleged to be half his age. 

4) He is in favor of banning parents from spanking their children. 

So let's get this right...
Here we have a homosexual (who has never explained how his name was
found in a book of a man who sold young boys to older men) He wants us
to be able to murder our children, kill off old people and sodomize boys
as young as 14, but he doesn't want us to be able to spank our
children.... What's wrong with this picture?

Now Svend  wants the word ‘God' removed from a worthless document
misnamed a ‘Constitution.' By the way he also in the past wanted to have
the National Anthem changed because it was gender specific. 

Sorry people there is a God, and he has a way to deal with homosexuals
like Svend. But since society has ignored the word of God, He will do it
for us. Don't forget the following: A.I.D.S.

Anally Inflicted Death Sentence
Another Infected Dying Sodomite

You can legislate homosexuality as ‘normal' all you want, but you will
never make it fact!!

Lev, 20 v 13


From ecdlGHF@mb.sympatico.ca Thu May 21 18:15:52 EDT 1998
Article: 74291 of bc.general
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From: Joseph Lockhart 
Newsgroups: bc.politics,bc.general,van.general,ont.general,tor.general,can.politics,can.general,ab.general,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Remove GOD From the Canadian Constitution!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:30:47 -0700
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Xref: trends.ca bc.politics:84450 bc.general:74291 van.general:55084 ont.general:118979 tor.general:99139 can.politics:233055 can.general:118602 ab.general:59209 alt.atheism:463709

"You have until August 1998. This fall Burnaby MP Svend Robinson will
present the petition to the House of Commons." 


Ah yes... good old Svend... I'm not surprised..

This is a man that believes  the following:

1) He believes that a woman should have the right to murder her baby
under the guise of ‘choice.'

2) He believes that we should have the right to murder grandma and
grandpa under the guise of ‘assisted suicide.'

3) He was in favor of a private members bill that would lower the
consent age of anal penetration from 18 to 14.  Good for him, because
now he is in a relationship with a man alleged to be half his age. 

4) He is in favor of banning parents from spanking their children. 

So let's get this right...
Here we have a homosexual (who has never explained how his name was
found in a book of a man who sold young boys to older men) He wants us
to be able to murder our children, kill off old people and sodomize boys
as young as 14, but he doesn't want us to be able to spank our
children.... What's wrong with this picture?

Now Svend  wants the word ‘God' removed from a worthless document
misnamed a ‘Constitution.' By the way he also in the past wanted to have
the National Anthem changed because it was gender specific. 

Sorry people there is a God, and he has a way to deal with homosexuals
like Svend. But since society has ignored the word of God, He will do it
for us. Don't forget the following: A.I.D.S.

Anally Inflicted Death Sentence
Another Infected Dying Sodomite

You can legislate homosexuality as ‘normal' all you want, but you will
never make it fact!!

Lev, 20 v 13



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