The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/kreiberg.ole/1997/kreiberg.0197


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  1 09:45:00 PST 1997
Article: 93317 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German Scientologists ousted
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 15:38:51 +0100
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In article <5a8iti$a2k$1@news.hal-pc.org>, Dominion wrote:

>Congrats. You have just lost all crediblity, at least with me. ethnic
>homogenity is just a nicer phrase than ethnic cleansing, but it all
>comes down to the same B.S.

 The creation of ethnic homogeniety does not necessarily have to be violent.
Like socialism or religion have to violent just because Stalin, Pol Pot
the Christian Crusaders and Islamic holy warriors were so.

In my opinion there are fanatics in every religious and political camp.
It is always the fanatics which give the movements a bad name. This goes
for Scientology too.

> The FACT is appox 6 million (do you get
>that? MILLION!!) jews were killed in germany, for the simple crime of
>being different. 

 Actually they were accused for being a part of a Jewish-Bolschevic 
conspiracy to enslave the world or something like that. It is not up to me 
to determine whether this accusation was paranoid or not. 

>The TRUTH is that there is ample evidence that this
>happened. 

There are ample evidence that it was not technically possible to kill and
cremate the number of people claimed by the established historiography.

>
>Bah! Tell me then, what will you do if I am not a memeber of your
>ethnic group, but I don't want to leave the country? 
>How will you make me? 

 The same way that e.g. the American authorities would force me if I refuse 
to leave the USA after my visa had expired. How can this have anything to do 
with dictatorship?

>What saddens me the most about post like this, is the total lack of
>understanding how ethnic mixtures really make us stronger. 

 History is not able to show just one example that something good have come
out of miscegenation. There are many examples on the contrary. 

> Why then, is the mongrel stronger than the purebred?

Please show me an example on this from the real world.

>
>>Happy ethnic homogeneity to every country,
>
>
>I really try not to desend into gratutitous insults, I find them
>non-constructive, but I think I will make an expection in your case...

I am proud of my views on the meaning of ethnic differences.
>

>Eat shit racist scum. Like Anti-Cult, I am not at all surprised that
>you are assocated with the Co$. A match made in heaven...so to speak!
>

Peace and harmony to every nation through the creation of ethnic 
homogeneity. 

from
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  1 19:33:41 PST 1997
Article: 90454 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 22:01:21 +0100
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In article <32d08965.5621662@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>> Only those that refuse to leave voluntarily.
>
>Danish citizens, Mr. Kreiborg, are Danish citizens. 

 No here is something that you have totally misunderstood. Danish citizens
are ethnic Danes or persons with Danish citizensship who ethnic and 
culturally are Europeans. All other have been granted citizensship 
erroneously and this must be undone.

>> Hm but it is seems that the holocaust is the only one that is important
>>to remember.
>
>It's the one being denied. Remembering this decent into hell in our
>own century is important to remember for it involved 12 million
>innocents. Some of these defined as unworthy of life could very well
>have included you or your family. It was sometimes that arbitrary. 

 Absolute nonsens. There was never introduced nazi ideology in Denmark.
Remember from 1940-43 Denmark was ruled by the ordinary parliamentarian
politicians. After that the civil servants took over. After the government
dimissioned in 1943 the Germans made a feeble attempt to round up the
Jews whom they considered responsible for the demission of the government.
They never tried to nazify Denmark. Remember that Hitler said several times
that national socialism knows only Germany and is not meant for export.
Hitler was not interested in Denmark apart from it's military stratetic
value. If it had not been for the war Denmark, Norway and many other
countries would never have been occupied. 

>
>Not at all. The holocaust is unique in that a specific group was
>hunted down throughout Europe and transported to their deaths. This is
>singular in history. 

 The alleged holocaust may be unique in some ways while the other atrocities
may be unique in other ways. Being shot by Stalin's NKVD was in no way
more humane that being shot by Hitler's Einsatzgruppen.

>At the moment UI can't think of another event
>that equals the events of 1933-1945.
>
>> Remember that more people died in
>>communist camp than in nazi camps, even according to the established 
>>historiography.
>
>They communists had a longer period to kill than did the Nazis. 

 Are you saying that it is not so bad to kill people if you just are doing
it over long period?

>The
>Communists camps were not filled with a specific group of people 
>or
>religions. 

 Stalin killed all sorts of people even top members of his party. In that
way he was able to kill more people, but it is not supposed to matter so 
much because he was "discriminating". He just killed everyone and was 
therefore more humane than Hitler who was so evil as only target a few 
easy difinable groups. Stalin was not so bad because he did not just killed
Jews he killed also Tatars, Ukrainians etc.. Is that what you are trying
to tell me?
         
         Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Jewish organisation
       Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (New York) in ADL On the
       Frontline, January 1994 p. 2:

         "The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event.
       It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful
       attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God
       Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as
       recorded in the Bible; and like it's direct opposite, which is
       relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be
       remembered from generation to generation"
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Jan  2 11:45:03 PST 1997
Article: 93323 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's "Ethnic homogeniety" = Violence
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 22:41:29 +0100
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In article <5ae8th$32i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>
> Mr. Kreiberg believes in arresting
>people in the middle of the night, and delivering them to his
>concentration camps.... only, of course, for those
>who do not appreciate his "non-violent ethnic homogeniety."

 Only if they do not leave the country after a respite of two years.
I do not understand why you are picking on me. This is a fair offer and
no one will be kept in custody against their will. They can leave anytime
and to anywhere unless back to Denmark.

Followups have been set to alt.politics.nationalism.white. where this 
discussion really belongs. Everytime I try to discuss something else
such as Scientology or German legislation these Nizkor people come
running with this old discussion about the noble endeavor of creating 
ethnic homogeneity.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Jan  3 09:09:49 PST 1997
Article: 90760 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:30:38 +0100
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In article <32d15bbe.6371357@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>So, you accept the slaughter of the Einsatzgruppen. 

I do not have to take a stand toward the actions of the Einsatzgruppen,
because it is all history. I was not born at that time and my country
was not involved in any of these acts.

>The NKVD was arbitrary and random sometimes depending upon the
>whim of a dictator. 

Oh yes this makes a great diffference. :-D

>> Stalin killed all sorts of people even top members of his party.
>
>So? what has this to do with the history of the Holocaust?

Because the acts of Stalin do not have the same value in the 
"victimonology" as the acts of Hitler. I can understand this 
>from  the view of Germans and Jews. But for a Non-German and a
Non-Jew the acts of Hitler and Stalin did not differ much.

>
>> In that
>>way he was able to kill more people,
>
>So? what has this to do with the history of the Holocaust?

If the "holocaust" of Hitler is to be memorized all the time, the holocaust
of Stalin deserves the same.

>
>> but it is not supposed to matter so 
>>much because he was not "discriminating". He just killed everyone
>
>No, he did not kill "everyone."

 Neither did Hitler. Think about all those survivors of the Holocaust
that appear in public and how many survivors who receive compensation
>from  the Germany. If Stalin had lived longer even more people would
certainly have been killed.

>> he killed also Tatars, Ukrainians etc.. Is that what you are trying
>>to tell me?
>>
>
>No. I do ask what has this to do with the history of the Holocaust?
>
Because there are other people than the Jews that have tried to suffer
and their suffering have the same value in my opinion.

         Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Jewish organisation
       Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (New York) in ADL On the
       Frontline, January 1994 p. 2:

         "The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event.
       It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful
       attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God
       Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as
       recorded in the Bible; and like it's direct opposite, which is
       relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be
       remembered from generation to generation"


--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Jan  3 09:37:02 PST 1997
Article: 90765 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:05:48 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>
>
>There is no law allowing imprisonment for revisionistic views on the
>holocaust as long as they are not expressed in a manner likely to endanger
>public security. I did give qou the full translation of Art. 130 (3) CC in
>another thread. So you should know it yet.

Hm. Have you ever heard about the Guenther Deckert case. The regional court 
in Karlsruhe sentenced him to two years in jail on the 21st April 1995.

 "Holocaust denial" is not protected under Germany's constitutional 
guarantees of freedom of opinion, the country's highest court have 
specifically declared. In an April 26, 1994, ruling the Federal 
Constitutional Court stated that "denial" of the Holocaust extermination
story is a "provenly untrue" and punishable assertation.

>
>> ... STASI Germany ...
>> ... the ruthless and authoritarian German mentality that expressed itself 
>> through nazism 5 decades ago has not changed much. 
>> Their [the German] "democracy" is a caricature of a true democracy. 
>
>Didn't you say that you aren't Anti-German a couple of weeks ago ?  You
>did. What else is this but Anti-Germanisms ?

 I am neither Anti-German nor Pro-German. I think that some of you Germans 
think like the Jews. If one dares critizing the Jews or says something 
unfavourable about the Jews you are supposed to be an evil "antisemite" 
longing for a new "holocaust". The Jews cannot do anything wrong. If one 
critisizes or says something unfavourable about the Germans you are 
Anti-German. It was the evil nazism that commited all the atrocities during 
WW2 and not the poor little Germans who had been overpowered and occupied 
much against their will by nazism. Isn't this the way the Germans wish to 
interpret their own past?

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Jan  3 15:01:54 PST 1997
Article: 93450 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German Scientologists ousted
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 22:55:09 -0100
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In article <32cb56e4.1215270@193.12.69.3>, Anti-Cult wrote:
>
>Dominion:
>
>>Thank you Anti-Cult for bringing our attention to the political views
>>of Ole here. 

What have my political views to do with Scientology? The Scientologists
come from all over the political spectrum.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Jan  3 15:53:37 PST 1997
Article: 93453 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Small and big countries in the EU
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 22:41:07 +0100
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In article <5ab4g7$k2f@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Tobias Erichsen wrote:
>
>This comparison is pretty far off... neither Russia want to take over
>Germany nor does Germany want to take over Denmark or Europe.  

 The big countries have a tendency to swallow up the small countries. Just
take a look on the fate Scotland, Corsica, the Basque land. Take a look on 
the history of all those small countries next to Russia. If a small country 
is wise it keeps a certain distance to big countries. Denmark is too small
to play with a country on the size of Germany without loosing.

>The
>move to unify Europe further than what has been accomplished so far
>is from my point of view a pretty good step.  

 Why? I can absolutely see no advantage in a unified Europe. I can only
see increased tensions between the nationalities.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Jan  3 20:21:19 PST 1997
Article: 93464 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Trial against the former East German borderguards
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 22:08:27 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote about GDR Border Patrol shooting
>at those who tried to flee from the GDR:
>
>> They even prevented some citizens from breaking the law by shooting at
>> them.
>
>Sounds as if you think it is a particulary good idea to "prevent citizens
>from breaking law" by shooting them. 
>
 Well those drastic steps might have been necessary to prevent people
>from  fleeing the republic. If too many people left the republic it would
have broken down. This might have disturbed the balance between East and  
West which again could have caused dangers of a worldwar.

>
>> I say that they only did what their superiors ordered them to do. 
>
>That does not matter as the international human right is superior to
>national law or any orders. 

 I am not so sure about that. In my country the constitution says that their
is no authority beside or above the parliament. If the parliament subscribe
to all of the human rights they are valid. If a majority of the parliament 
want unsubscribe to some of the human rights they can do so. I think this
is the same in all countries. The constitution in my country says that it is
high treason to do something against the majority of the parliament. 

>Thus in severe cases of human rights
>violations as this you might well find yourself accused and sentenced one
>day even if everything was "legal under national law".
>
This is Kangaroo justice. If you lived in DDR you are subjected to
the law of the DDR and nothing else.

> But whatever law or orders tell you, there are basics
>which fall in your responsibility: if the action would violate basic human
>rights. 

 If you live in a democracy you have the right to be in opposition to every
law and act of the government as well the human rights. The human rights
are made by humans and can be changed by humans. 

>Example: If you torture somebody you will not come off with a "But
>it was perfectly legal to do so.".
>-- 
 A lot of people in innumerable third world dictatorships have done so.
Or what about the former communist countries? Have all those who 
have mistreated political prisoners there been tried and convicted?
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Jan  3 20:21:21 PST 1997
Article: 93465 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Dutch Police cooperate with German Fascists
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 21:21:12 +0100
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In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>       
>I think most of your positions are extremist. And your
>inhumane aim to extradict Danish citizens is in clear 
>violation of their internationally accepted human rights.

>Your holocaust denial is certainly extremist, too, but
>other than that it is just astoundingly silly. It does not 
>violate anybody's human rights. 
>
>Lueftl and Leuchter unpolitical - Phhht! Ack! ROTFL!

So what political acts have they been involved in before they became 
revisionists.

>Anybody denying the holocaust has a very specific
>political agenda - exonerating Nazi Germany. That's
>hardly unpolitical. 
>

That is what you say. What political agenda do Leuchter, Lueftl, Faurisson
and Butz have. They are not affiliated with politics. You do not have to
be affiliated with politics just because you hold a controversial view.

>And given your hateful comments concerning Germany,

Hateful?  You mean that I hate Germany just because I fear and oppose it's
influence in the EU? Helmuth Kohl is more dangerous to the sovereignty of 
my country than Hitler was.

>I wonder why you of all people would defend that
>pro-Nazi/German position. 

 One of the many reasons could be that I want to irritate the German 
government as much as possible. 

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan  4 09:44:06 PST 1997
Article: 90957 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:11:01 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:90957 soc.culture.german:93494

> If someoone in this group know of  relaavent works 
>or internet cites, please e mail me at pfocks@vectornet.com.
>
Take a look at the following:

http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan  4 09:44:07 PST 1997
Article: 90958 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:00:04 +0100
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In article <32cf86fc.1676194@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>
>>If the "holocaust" of Hitler is to be memorized all the time, the holocaust
>>of Stalin deserves the same.
>>
>
>Then you are in the wrong newsgroup.

 I am not sure about that. Revisionism is not only dealing with the history
of the holocaust. Even if it was, there would be nothing wrong in trying to
estimate whether or not the alleged holocaust was worse and more memorable 
than other atrocities in history. This has still to do with holocaust. 
Hasn't it.
>
>I believe reparation ended quite some time ago. 

 Germany still pays reparation to the survivors of the holocaust and to the 
state of Israel which did not even exist at the time of the alleged 
holocaust. Even the American taxpayers are giving 3 million dollars to 
Israel every year without getting anything in return. I wonder what the
Americans have done to the Jews that can justify this. Israel is no third
world country.
>
> Deniers concentrate specifically on the Jews at the
>exclusion of the other 6 million souls.
>
They may do so because when the political correct massmedia etc. are 
referring to the holocaust only the alleged 6 million Jews are mentioned.

         Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Jewish organisation
       Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (New York) in ADL On the
       Frontline, January 1994 p. 2 :

         "The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event.
       It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful
       attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God
       Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as
       recorded in the Bible; and like it's direct opposite, which is
       relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be
       remembered from generation to generation"
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan  4 10:35:41 PST 1997
Article: 93488 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German Scientologists ousted
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:28:36 +0100
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In article <32e58fd3.12639231@news>, Bernie wrote:
>
>Hmm. I am not that familiar with holocaust denier's arguments.
>Are you guys saying that the holocaust didn't exist? 
>What about the concentration camps? 

>P.S. Make it short or it will go off topic (and I am in no mood
>to read the white.suppremacy or something newsgroup)

At your request:

[follow-ups have been set to alt.revisionism]

The revisionist view is:

 There were of course concentration camps but there were no attempts to
deliberately kill anyone just because they were Jews. Furthermore it
would not have been technically possible to kill and cremate so many people 
in such a short time as claimed by the established historiography. Many 
people died in typhoid epidemics. A lot of pictures of these victims have 
been shown.

Try following websites for further information:

http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com


--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan  4 10:35:43 PST 1997
Article: 93496 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Dutch Police cooperate with German Fascists
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:13:54 +0100
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In article <852339171snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, Cheradenine Zakalwe wrote:
>In article 
>           olk@login.dknet.dk "Ole Kreiberg" writes:
>>Hateful?  You mean that I hate Germany just because I fear and oppose it's
>>influence in the EU? Helmuth Kohl is more dangerous to the sovereignty of 
>>my country than Hitler was.
>
>You're a nutter, aren't you?
>
Not at all. Hitler said before the occupation of Denmark that the Danes were 
terrible German bashers with whom no closer ties were possible. During the
whole period of the occupation there were no open border between Denmark
and Germany. Not only were everyone wishing to cross the border checked by 
Danish and German borderguards but also by the German military. This proves
that Germany had more respect for the sovereignty of Denmark in those days 
than today where it is pressuring for open borders and that Denmark through 
the Schengen and EU adopt German legislation. Please notice that it is only 
Denmark that is supposed adopt German laws. Germany is of course not supposed to
adopt any Danish legislation because it is Denmark that is to be harmonized 
with Germany and not the other way round. Now you may now begin to 
understand why I "hate" Germany.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan  4 14:09:12 PST 1997
Article: 90985 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 20:33:38 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:90985 soc.culture.german:93517

In article <32d976c6.6293062@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>I am. The "revisionists" game is not historical revisionism as
>practiced by historians. The "revisionists" stated purpose is to deny
>the Jewish aspect of the Holocaust. If you want to do that go to one
>of the WW2 conferences.
>
The title of this newsgroup is alt.revisionism not alt."revisionism"

>
>I did notice that IHR is publishing Thomas Dixon's racist works on the
>clan. But I think this is best left to the white-power newsgroups. 

I have subscribed to the Journal of Historical Review for several years.
There have been articles on the Spanish inquisition, the murder of the
Russian Tsar family and a lot of articles on historical subjects other than
the alleged Jewish holocaust. 

 There is also revisionism concerning the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. 
The revisionists claim that the American government knew in advance about 
this attack, but let the Japanese smash the pacific navy in order to 
make a reluctant American public accept the American participation in 
WW2.
>
>It wasn't worse than some or more memorable than others. Since you do
>not name them I have to use my own knowledge of history to be
>selective. The issue here, however, is not this. The issue here is if
>it happened at all. Get it, yet?

 Who have decided that? The anti-revisionists? All aspects of the holocaust
and the treatment of the Jews by the Germans during WW2 is a topic to this 
newsgroup.
>
>This isn't my understanding. Reparation was based on the cost of
>settling survivors. These moneys went to the individual survivors and
>not to the State of Israel. So, if you have citations concerning this
>history, I'll be happy to look them over.

I have read in various newspapers that Germany has paid billions of DM
to Israel because of the holocaust.

>
>> Even the American taxpayers are giving 3 million dollars to 
>>Israel every year without getting anything in return. I wonder what the
>>Americans have done to the Jews that can justify this. Israel is no third
>>world country.
>
>This has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
>
 The Jews have used the memory of the holocaust to gain sympathy from the 
American public in order to make these lavish American donations to Israel 
acceptable. 

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 02:02:44 PST 1997
Article: 93520 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news1.tele.dk!cph-1.news.DK.net!dkuug!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German Scientologists ousted
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 20:59:26 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Distribution: inet
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.religion.scientology:224076 comp.org.eff.talk:72918 soc.culture.german:93520

In article <5alp80$94k@ultra.ultra.net.au>, Finn Harder wrote:
>
>               6 Million killed, jews and other 'trash'
>               Time scale, around 5 years.
>               A conservative estimate of number of camps would be around say 30.
>
>               we then get.
>                               6,000,000
>                                 ---------------------- = 109.6
>                                  365 x 5 x 30

 Listen wise guy, most of the Jews are supposed to have been killed in
gaschambers in 5 concentration camps in Poland. In the biggest, Auschwitz,
12000 are supposed to have been killed per day in two small gas chambers
and cremated in 46 crematorium ovens. Although it takes at least 75 minutes
to cremate a corpse in a modern oven these Germans were able to do so in 
less than 6 minutes. Do you believe in that?

 I have set the followups to alt.revisionism. If you want to discuss whether 
or not the holocaust happened you should visit this newsgroup. It is off
topic in all of these newsgroups except soc.culture.german. 

---
For further information on the holocaust revisionism:

http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 02:02:45 PST 1997
Article: 93535 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German Scientologists ousted
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 23:31:11 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.religion.scientology:224108 comp.org.eff.talk:72923 soc.culture.german:93535

In article <32ce51cf.3963541@news.nl.net>, Cees Binkhorst wrote:
>On Wed, 01 Jan 1997 15:38:51 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
>wrote:
>
>> The creation of ethnic homogeniety does not necessarily have to be violent.
>>Like socialism or religion have to violent just because Stalin, Pol Pot
>>the Christian Crusaders and Islamic holy warriors were so.
>
>Neither Stalin, nor any of the other 'groups' you mention were after
>ethnic homogeneity.
>
 Are you trying to tell me that it is worse to kill people e.g. because
of skincolour than political colour. Have the lives of political minorities 
less value than the lives of ethnic minorities? 

>>There are ample evidence that it was not technically possible to kill and
>>cremate the number of people claimed by the established historiography.
>>
>
>An excessive point of view.
>Actually outlawed in a number of civilized countries.

 In which countries? Not in decent democracies that respect the freedom 
of speech. I know only of two "democratic" countries that outrightly
supress the freedom of speech and that is Germany and France.
And it happens to be those two countries that are persecuting the 
Scientologists and pushing forward with more European Union. These
two countries also want to limit the freedom of speech in the rest of
Europe under the pretext of "protecting" minorities. This will of course
only be the suckerbait. What they really are aiming at is the much more
numerous and much better organized opponents of the European Union. Take a 
look at the former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. The only way to keep the 
various people together within these unions was through harsh supression. 
Why would the European Union be different?
>
>> History is not able to show just one example that something good have come
>>out of miscegenation. There are many examples on the contrary. 
>>
>>> Why then, is the mongrel stronger than the purebred?
>>
>>Please show me an example on this from the real world.
>
>Look up any book on genetic diversity and draw your own conclusion.

Have done that.

>Ethnic homogeneity will, a.o. create intolerance of other ethnic
>groups. Hardly the way to get peace and harmony.
 
 When there no longer are more than one ethnic group living within the 
geographical area of a nation there will of course be no intolerance of 
other ethnic groups. The intolerance is the symptom of the unnatural state 
of more than one ethnic group living within the same territory. Ethnic 
homogeneity will cure that.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 11:42:51 PST 1997
Article: 91114 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news1.tele.dk!cph-1.news.DK.net!dkuug!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 12:34:30 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91114 soc.culture.german:93583

In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>> Danish citizens are ethnic Danes or persons with Danish citizensship who 
>> ethnic and  culturally are Europeans. All other have been granted 
>> citizensship erroneously and this must be undone.
>
>Which clearly follows the socio-darvinistic and racial concept of
>nationality adopted and perfectionalized by Nazis. 

 Or you may rather say, distorted by the German nazis in order to make it
fit into their German chauvinist agenda.

>> There was never introduced nazi ideology in Denmark.
>
>Oh, there was, but fortunately with less success than in other countries. 

Please point out something. I have never been able to find anything.
>
>> Remember that Hitler said several times that national socialism knows 
>> only Germany and is not meant for export.
>
>In fact he did try to export it to almost every country in Europe and even
>to America. And he did dream of a national-socialist Europe under German
>leadership as easily figured out by reading "Mein Kampf" or studying plans
>stipulated by Hitler and developped in detail by Rosenberg.
> 
 This is not true. He wanted hegemoni over Europe like Helmuth Kohl. He spoke
about "Neurope" and "Grosswirtschaftsraum" - much like Kohl and his 
French-German EU. The different between Hitler and Kohl is that Kohl 
pretends to be a democrat and is not a German chauvinist. Kohl has learned
>from  history and strives for a peacefully conquest of Europe through the EU.

>
>> Hitler was not interested in Denmark apart from it's military stratetic
>> value. 
>
>He was. In terms of national-socialism Nordic people (Denmark, Sweden,
>Norway, Finland) did represent the Aryan gene-pool. 

 Sure, but this did not meant that he regarded them a apart of Germany or
the Deutchtum.

>They were regarded as
>Aryans genetically, but sociologically and politcally degenerated Aryans
>as they - due to luck by geography and history - had never to withstand
>mayor pressure of "inferior races" as Slavic or Jewish. 

 In the Middle Ages Denmark fought against the Slavic tribes in Holsten and 
Ruegen.

>As Hitlers first
>interest was to sweep off those "inferior races" his second was to unite
>Aryans under the flag of national-socialism.

This is not true. Hitler was first and foremost a German chauvinist.

>   By the way: even to think of "Jews" as a race does clearly show that
>the term "race" has nothing to do with any biological concept of it. 

 That is because the Jews are very mixed that it may be difficult to 
determine their race. Some appear clearly white others don't. Just take
a look at the population of Israel and you will find that they look more
like the nations they derive from than they look like each other. 

>Thus
>socio-darvinism as any other theory rastering mankind in terms of "race"
>is nothing else but plain rubbish.

You say so because no races today are really pure. This fact makes the race
concept less clear, but this does not mean that it does not exist.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 11:42:51 PST 1997
Article: 91136 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German Scientologists ousted
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:05:21 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Distribution: inet
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References: <199612200104.RAA14620@mailmasher.com> <5alp80$94k@ultra.ultra.net.au> <-AjpoOev1KxT065yn@login.dknet.dk> <32cf34ca.56554c43414e@vulcan.xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91136 alt.religion.scientology:224222 comp.org.eff.talk:72931 soc.culture.german:93598

In article <32cf34ca.56554c43414e@vulcan.xs4all.nl>, Johan Wevers wrote:
>
>They probably burnt more than one corpse per "session". didn't you think of
>that, smart guy?

Hm. Have you ever seen those narrow ovens on display in e.g. the Auschwitz
museum? How many corpses would they contain at a time? Doesn't it take the
longer time to cremate a large volume than a small volome?

Let me briefly comment Daniel Keren's allegation that there were supposed
to be gassings in Auschwitz for 5 years. The established historiography
says that the gassings started in 1942 and stopped in 1944. Hardly 5 years. 

>>I have set the followups to alt.revisionism.
>
>And I set it back 'couse I don't read these groups.
>
I have set them back to alt.revisionism where a thorough discussion about 
holocaust revisionism belongs.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 11:42:52 PST 1997
Article: 91138 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More common sense from Kreiberg
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 15:51:36 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Message-ID: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <5aml0s$141@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>
>You do not, then, question the 6 million non-Jewish victims of the
>Holocaust, only the 6 million Jews who were murdered?
>
I of course question that too.

>The only anti-revisionists here are the Holocaust deniers. Strange
>that you should note we address "all aspects" of the Holocaust
>here, yet casually ignore 6 million victims above. Why is that?
>
As I have said before, the 6 million Jews are the most "important"
victims according to the massmedia, litterature etc.. 

         Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Jewish organisation
       Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (New York) in ADL On the
       Frontline, January 1994 p. 2 ,:

         "The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event.
       It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful
       attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God
       Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as
       recorded in the Bible; and like it's direct opposite, which is
       relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be
       remembered from generation to generation"

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 13:05:07 PST 1997
Article: 93594 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Dutch Police cooperate with German Fascists
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:21:50 -0100
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In article <852427712snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, Cheradenine Zakalwe wrote:

>Nazi-occupied Europe was a police state with no freedom of travel.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 You mean the German occupied European nations. Europe is a continent not
a country.

>Now people are allowed to travel freely within the EU. This is an 
>improvement, don't you agree.

 They were allowed to do so before the EU too. It makes no sense to remove
the bordercontrol. It is a step toward the dissolution of the sovereignty
of the nations and the fulfilment of Helmuth Kohl's mad plan toward a 
European superstate. Small countries like Denmark will be reduced to remote 
powerless provinces. 

>
>> Not only were everyone wishing to cross the border checked by 
>>Danish and German borderguards but also by the German military. This proves
>>that Germany had more respect for the sovereignty of Denmark 
>
>THey had so much respect for Denmark's soverreignty that they invaded
>the place. Get real.

 This time they have become smarter. They are doing just the same or worse
by peaceful means.

>
>Kohl is not going to invade Denmark.

 He does not need to do so if he can lure or pressure Denmark by peaceful 
means.

>Hitler *did* invade Denmark.
>Therefore Kohl has more respect for Danish sovereignty.

Kohl is just smarter.

>> Please notice that it is only 
>>Denmark that is supposed adopt German laws.
>
>Denmark is not being forced to adopt German laws. 

Denmark is under pressure all the time. How long can it withstand?

> What could they do? If they invade, then all the other countries in 
>Europe will ally against them. 

 Germany is allied in the EU with France, and all of the other EU
nations except England have accepted their subordinatation.

>If they stop trading with Denmark, they will be kicked out of the 
>EU.
>
If Denmark finally leaves the EU, which is not unlikely, Germany can easily
stop trading, and if it stays it can easily continue to pressure.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Jan  5 23:01:09 PST 1997
Article: 91281 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 21:57:19 +0100
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In article <32d8ca7f.6995926@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>You are also quite aware of the reason for the quotes. I do not feel
>that you haven't heard the reason before and I do not feel that you
>mean to be obtuse. The historical revisionism claimed to be practiced
>here by the denial groups is not historical revisionism. They refuse
>to do the research or the work needed to revise history. When they do
>the research they tend to distort sources and the history they are
>trying to revise. Historical revisionism is a lot of work and
>therefore I call what they do "revisionism." I prefer distortionism. I
>could use my own term if the one in quotes bothers you.
>
It is all your points of view. Revisionists like Butz, Faurisson, Rudolph,
Leuchter, Lueftl, Mattogno etc. had done a serious scientific work. You may
dislike or disagree with their conclusions but this does not mean that there
is anything wrong with their research.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan  6 01:57:34 PST 1997
Article: 93628 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Small and big countries in the EU
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 22:14:04 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:93628 talk.politics.european-union:7974

In article <01bbfa4f$5c2660c0$b3ab7bc1@default>, Sean Ryan wrote:
>
>If we ever become a United Europe, the benefits will far outway the losses.

 In which way? Denmark and the UK had got no significant benefits out of 
the EU. Countries like Norway and Switzerland are better off than the
EU countries.

>
>The EU is far from perfect, but it is better than the alternative.
>

And what is alternative? Were things worse in your country or mine before
the admission to the EU more than two decades ago?

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan  6 11:26:43 PST 1997
Article: 91420 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1997 11:18:24 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>
>Only for those Non-Germans and Non-Jews not knowing of what they are
>talking about. "Both killed men" is the simple answer of these people.
>True, both did kill men, a great many. The difference is in the way and
>perfectness they did it, the Europe-wide net of logistics and the killing
>industry the Nazi built up. I am quite sure you know that. The main reason
>for revisionists to deny the Holocaust lies within the awareness of the
>substantial difference between both events and because to belittle the
>Holocaust by stating "Look, Stalin did kill a lot of people too" will not
>work if seen on the idelogical background of national-socialism and its
>unique use of social darvinism. 

Hm. Let me take another example. According to the non-revisionist 
historiography the German nazis wanted to kill all "sub-humans". All
people below a certain standard was supposed to be killed or removed from 
the Reich. In Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge regime people with an 
education were killed. If someone wore glasses it was a sign that they were 
educated and the therefore a threat to the Khmer socialist peasant republic. 
The Khmer Rouge wanted to create equality by killing all the "superhumans" 
while the nazis wanted to create equality by killing all the "subhumans". 
Please tell me who were the worst?

>
>Because I am very sure that you will answer aomething similiar to "It 
>doesn't make a difference why the bullet was shot when you get shot." let
>me state "It does not make a difference in the eyes of the victim, but it
>does for all others.". Or to say it more simple: if a person got shot, do 
>you really think it doesn't matter whether accidentally or at will ?  
>-- 
Hm. Are you suggesting that Stalin killed million of people by accident?
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan  6 18:08:12 PST 1997
Article: 93692 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1997 10:49:53 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>
>If I do remember right, he was sentenced under Art. 130 (2) and Art. 131
>CC. As Art. 130 (2) does provide up to 3 years for publishing writings
>stipulating hate against members of a nations, race, religion or
>ethnicity. 

 I do not understand why it is regarded "hatred" if a smaller number of
Jews died in WW2 than the established historiography claims. I think that it 
is good news for Jews and the humanity if fewer Jews died. The fewer Jews 
that died the better. Don't you think so? Or had you rather seen more Jews 
killed?

>Art 131 does provide up to 1 year for publishing writings that
>do belittle or glorify acts of cruel and inhumane violence. 
                ^^^^^^^

 How can you glorify acts of cruel and inhumane violence by simply denying
that such thing had happened in the first place?

>
>It did label Holocaust denial as a serious violation of the personality
>("schwere Persoenlichkeitsverletzung" in German) of surviving victims.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :-D :-D Gee! :-D :-D

>This does not at all mean that Holocaust denial has to be seen as act of
>incitement and therefor automatically will fall under Art 130 (3) CC. 

And me? Am I regarded a dangerous criminal according to this pathetic
"legislation" because of my participation in the Debate about 
holocaust revisionism on the usenet? I am curious of which record the
German thought police (Verfassungschutz) keeps on me?
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan  6 18:08:13 PST 1997
Article: 93693 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There is no debate
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1997 10:42:46 -0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91473 soc.culture.german:93693

In article <5apcjf$neh@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>In article <32d8ca7f.6995926@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:
>
>> What, for instance, does CODOH stand for?

CODOH= Committee for Open Debate of the Holocaust. That means a debate
free from the legislation of authoritarian goverments and surveillance
and interference by undemocratic institutions such as the "Verfassungschutz"
in Germany. And free from the suppression by the massmedia in other 
countries.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan  6 18:08:13 PST 1997
Article: 93694 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1997 11:38:28 +0100
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In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
># It is all your points of view. Revisionists like Butz,
># Faurisson, Rudolph, Leuchter, Lueftl, Mattogno etc. had
># done a serious scientific work.
>
>Can you give one example of "serious scientific work" any
>of them has done, regarding the history of the Holocaust?
>Just one. Thank you.
>
Sure no problem. Here is a small selection:


Professor Arthur Butz: "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century"
Carlo Mattogno: "Auschwitz, The End of a Legend"
The Lueftl report.
The Rudolph Report (this report is considered a dangerous thought
crime in Germany, therefore, my dear Danny boy, it is no use to try to 
belittle or ridicule it. It is so dangerous that a court in Germany have 
ordered unsold copies burned.) 
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Jan  7 08:36:49 PST 1997
Article: 91570 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Butz is "serious scientific work?" (More Krap from Kreiberg)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 12:32:24 +0100
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In article <5asbdp$jkq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>
>Let's start with Dr. Butz. List his "serious scientific work." 
>
Take a look at his website and judge for yourself:

http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Jan  7 12:02:39 PST 1997
Article: 93700 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Common sense and nothing else
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 23:51:44 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.religion.scientology:224487 comp.org.eff.talk:72950 soc.culture.german:93700

In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>
> How long it takes to become an ethnic Dane he leaves open

 This is not true. People that are not ethnically and culturally a
part of Europe should never be accepted as ethnic Danes no matter 
how many generations they have stayed.

Follow-ups have been set to alt.politics.nationalism.white where this
discussion belongs.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Jan  7 12:02:40 PST 1997
Article: 93701 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Unions
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 23:00:54 +0100
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In article <5arjgm$d25@news2.Belgium.EU.net>, Stephane E. Dohet wrote:
>
>But why so be against a federation of nations at European level ? 
>Denmark is not a one-nation state. Kalalit Nunaat (Groenland) and
>Foroyar (Farerne) are NOT Danish, like Iceland wasn't and neither was
>Norway ! 

 Greenland has now a home rule and has left the EU. Norway and Iceland are 
not members either. I think these nations got enough of being united 
with Denmark and do not want more of this stuff. Therefore they have rejected 
membership of the EU. In Norway they call all those centuries with Danish 
rule for the Danish night. I could say the same about the EU. It is the 
beginning of the German or the European night. Why would I be more 
interested in being united with Germany than the Norwegians being united 
with Denmark. After all Denmark is that country that is closest to Norway 
in culture and language. Norway was also united with Sweden for a while
and were not very happy with either.

>Denmark ruled Scandinavia, Europe will federate nations,
>that's differrent. 
>
Ask the Swedes how they liked the Danish hegemony in the Kalmarunion.

>it cannot accept to be part of a union, where Denmark cannot rule on

 So true. Denmark has always ruled itself and done that well. Today it is 
more well functioning and has a higher standard of living than all of 
the EU countries (except Luxembourg). What benefits do Denmark get out 
of being in the EU? Norway and Switzerland that are not members have both a 
higher standard of living than Denmark. 

>its own, and has to council with other Europeans. 
>You are the typically Danish Eurosceptic.
>
 Why should we counsel with other Europeans about everything? Switzerland 
and Norway get well along without. Furthermore I feel that I am Scandinavian 
and do not really identify myself much with Central and Southern Europe. 
Denmark belongs in Scandinavia.

> I like shopping in France, or travelling Germany, but I
>don't understand why should I be checked at the border between two
>states, and not at, e g the Flemish border. 
>There are no borders within the European states, why should BETWEEN
>European states ?

 You are a Belgian, and Belgium is not a natural nation. One part is a
kind of Dutchmen and the other half a kind of Frenchmen. A homogeneous
country is something different and more meaningful.

>
>Do you need your own foreign affairs ? You think that Denmark's voice
>would be heard next to USA, China, or Japan's ones ?
>You want the sole control of your army ? But will you be able to
>defend your people if an islamic coalition was to invade Europe ? 

 There is still the NATO, and NATO has always been an alliance between
sovereign and free countries. 

>
>If you don't want to be just a province, become  a federate state of
>the USE.
>
Perhaps for Walloons and the Flemings it would be better to be a region
in Europe rather than to be forced to share a Belgian identity.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Jan  7 12:02:41 PST 1997
Article: 93715 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Unions
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 12:20:52 -0100
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In article <32D1AFF4.4A82@itl.net>, Euro  wrote:
>
>Putting this theory to work, this would therefore mean that the United
>Kingdom is not a natural nation, as it is made up of Irish, Scots, 
>welsh and English. 

Hm. How do the British and the Irish get along in Northern Ireland? 

There are strong Scottish and Welsh movements for independence.

>Sweden is not a natural nation then as its made
>up of Finns and Swedes. 

 The only Finns in Sweden are immigrated Finns and a tiny Finnish speaking 
minority along the Swedish-Finnish border.

>Switzerland isn't either
>(french/german/Italian).

 Here language does not mean nationality. The Swiss prefere to be Swiss
and not Germans, French and Italian. In Northern Ireland it is your religion 
that determines whether you are British (Protestant) or Irish (Catholic).
A Dutchman, Englishman or German are just as Dutch, English and German
whether or not they are a Catholics or a Prostestants. E.g. a German 
Catholic does not feel that he has more in common with a Polish or French 
Cathololic than he has with the Protestant Germans. Therefore it is not 
always the same factors that determine your nationality.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Jan  7 19:44:54 PST 1997
Article: 91695 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 12:34:48 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Message-ID: 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91695 soc.culture.german:93752

In article <32ddc8c0.9795874@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>Professor Arthur Butz: "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century"
>
>What is scientific about this one?

What is unscientific about this one

>>Carlo Mattogno: "Auschwitz, The End of a Legend"
>
>This one?

What is unscientific about this one?

>>The Lueftl report.
>
>This one?

What is unscientific about this one?

>
>>The Rudolph Report (this report is considered a dangerous thought
>>crime in Germany, therefore, my dear Danny boy, it is no use to try to 
>>belittle or ridicule it. It is so dangerous that a court in Germany have 
>>ordered unsold copies burned.) 
>
>Maybe because it is rubbish?
>
Hey the German government would not fear revisionism so much if it was
pure rubbish. Wouldn't they? The revisionists must have a very strong 
message. Remember Germany pretends to be a democracy while it at the same 
time sends people in prison for expressing views it does not agree with. 
Either is the revisionist views are very strong or the German democracy is 
very weak. What is it?
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  8 16:18:39 PST 1997
Article: 91839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news1.tele.dk!cph-1.news.DK.net!dkuug!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There is no debate
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 23:21:59 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91839 soc.culture.german:93802

In article <32d65aee.415638101@news.zilker.net>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>Not only that but they don't even want to be bothered for email
>discussions. Poor dears, they are such cowards. 

Maybe they have given up answering all the e-mail long time ago. 

 As far as I know DTV Thomas who are a very frequent poster and debater in 
alt.revisionism is attached to CODOH. 

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  8 16:18:40 PST 1997
Article: 91843 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news1.tele.dk!cph-1.news.DK.net!dkuug!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 15:02:26 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91843 soc.culture.german:93805

In article <32d20d65.330240532@news.zilker.net>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>And their science has been shown to be faulty or a distortion of the
>original work was a parto of their data. 

 Only by frenzied anti-revisionists such as the Nizkorites, Deborah 
Lippstadt, Pressac and the Wiesenthal Center.

>Butz did serious scientific
>work? Where?
>
In his his book: "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century"

>> You may
>>dislike or disagree with their conclusions but this does not mean that there
>>is anything wrong with their research.
>>
>
>Contrare, the refutations of their work suggest otherwise. It is the
>refutations of their work that denial groups choose to ignore. 

 Oh is it? The book by Carlo Mattogno: "Auschwitz, the End of a Legend"
is a debunking the refutations of one of the most wellknown 
anti-revisionists namely Jean-Clause Pressac. 

>Plus,
>all this scientific work flies in the face of the historical evidence.
>It suggests a last gasp attempt at further failure.

If it were so there would be no reason for EU in trying to make the 
expression of revisionism a thought crime in all membership nations.
Face it the established historiography is up against the wall.
>
>You didn't answer my questions to the post above about accepting the 6
>million out of the twelve million. 

Sure I question the 12 million the same way as I question the 6 million.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  8 16:18:40 PST 1997
Article: 91844 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:48:40 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91844 soc.culture.german:93806

In article <32d2d101.865280@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>They do not fear it. My understanding about their situation is that
>they do not want a recurrence of what happened in the 1930s. 

 They fear this the same way as Joseph McCarthy and the Committee Against
Unamerican Activities in the fifties feared a non-existant threat of a 
communist takeover in the USA. Or perhaps like Hitler feared the communist 
a Bolschevic-communist takeover of the whole world. The German politicians
seem to have more than one screw loose. 

>They do
>not want a criminal organization taking over their country again.
>Especially one that killed off much of the opposition early in its
>reign of terror. 

 If they have so much fear of the possibilities of a nazi take over
why don't the French have same fear of a rise of a new Napoleon or
the Scandinavians of a new Viking movement. Why is nazism the only part
of history of which there is a great danger of repetition?

> I can understand, but I disagree with their
>repression of these clowns for it is best that they be out in the
>open. 

 For the German politicians revisionists are not clowns but very dangerous
people that have to taken very seriously.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  8 16:50:07 PST 1997
Article: 93792 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: The history of WW2 and soc.culture.german
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 00:11:43 +0100
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References: <32cb29d9.174179993@news.dmsc.net> <5ahtth$g3l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <5ahtth$g3l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:

>It includes Berg's paper, with comments, as an appendix, and is
>quite thoroughly documented. Your comments are invited, in
>alt.revisionism, where they belong... I know you would rather
>avoid the group - at nearly any cost - but Holocaust denial
>doesn't belong in a German cultural group.
>
>From  the FAQ to soc.culture.german:

Subject: 2 Soc.Culture.German
=============================

   Contents: 
       2.1 What Language to use?  
       2.2 How to Type Umlauts?  

   This USENET newsgroup was created to be an international forum for
   discussion of German culture, history, etc.  
                                 ^^^^^^^

 I think that WW2 and the alleged Holocaust is that part of German history, 
that is most known to people around the world. So there is nothing strange
that this is the subject Non-German people want to discuss with the Germans.
I think that many Germans may wish it was different; but it isn't.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Jan  8 16:50:09 PST 1997
Article: 93804 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,de.soc.politik
Subject: Deutschland verletzt die Freiheit der Meinungsa"usserung
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:35:53 +0100
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       Religionsforscher Dr.phil Christian Lindtner aus Da"nemark hat mir 
       Folgende geschickt:



       Deutschland verletzt die Freiheit der Meinungsa"usserung

       PRIVAT Mehrere deutsche Wissenschaftler sitzen im Gefa"ngnis oder
       sind auf dem Weg dorthin. Selbst der Abdruck einer offiziellen
       Anklageschrift kann eine strafbare "Volksverhetzung" sein. Die
       Entwicklung muss fu"r Da"nemark, das vom su"dlichen Nachbar auf
       vielfa"ltiger Weise abha"ngig ist, Anlass zu Sorge geben. Wenn der
       Leser glaubte, dass o"ffentliche Buchverbrennungen glu"cklicherweise
       der Vergangenheit angeho"ren, dann muss er seinen Glauben a"ndern. Er
       muss leider nur seinen Blick hinunter zu unserem grossen su"dlichen
       Nachbarn wenden. Nun ist Deutschland ansonsten ja nicht das, was
       man als ru"cksta"ndiges Entwicklungsland bezeichnet. Im Gegenteil,
       gerade diese Nation hat auf fast allen Gebieten der Wissenschaft
       eine fu"hrende Stellung eingenommen, und die Forschung und Technik
       anderer La"nder hat davon zu allen Zeiten voller Bewunderung und
       Lernbegier profitiert. Gerade deshalb gibt es gute Gru"nde auf der
       Acht zu sein, wenn es dazu kommt, dass selbst deutsche Politiker
       offen einra"umen, dass es Probleme mit der Freiheit der
       Meinungsa"usserung gibt, und einige von ihnen beginnen, Druck auf
       die Gerichte auszuu"ben, um politisch genehme Urteile
       durchzusetzen. In den letzten Monaten gab es mehrere beunruhigende
       Fa"lle derartiger politischer Justiz mit dem Ziel, Einzelpersonen
       und Verlage zu strafen und abzuschrecken, die Freiheitsrechte in
       Anspruch zu nehmen, die ihnen ansonsten ausdru"cklich durch das
       Grundgesetz des eigenen Landes wie auch durch internationale
       Absprachen und Abkommen zugesichert wird. In der Theorie erlaubt
       das deutsche Grundgesetz (§ 5) selbstversta"ndlich jedem, seine
       Meinung in Wort, Schrift und Bild zu a"ußern, wie auch Kunst,
       Wissenschaft und Forschung als frei erkla"rt werden. Die Grenze
       wird - wie bei uns und anderenorts - nur durch den versta"ndlichen
       Wunsch gezogen, die allersto"rendsten, verletzendsten und
       ansto"ssigsten A"usserungen zu da"mpfen. Es muss eine gewisse Ru"cksicht
       auf den Frieden des Privatlebens und die o"ffentliche Ruhe und
       Ordnung genommen werden.Aber in der Praxis ist das ganz anders.
       Was die deutsche Gesetzgebung mit der einen Hand gibt, versucht
       sie dann mit der anderen zu nehmen. Mit Gefa"ngnis bis zu 5 Jahren
       kann das Gesetz (§ 130 StGB) den strafen, der, wie es heisst, "zum
       Hass gegen Teile der Bevo"lkerung aufstachelt". Eines sachlichen
       wissenschaftlichen Beweises dafu"r, dass jemand tatsa"chlich, in der
       *gegebenen Weise, mit einem bestimmten Ziel und mit einem
       konkreten Ergebnis u"berhaupt in einem bestimmten Mass Hass gegen
       einen Teil der Bevo"lkerung zu wecken vermag oder vermochte, bedarf
       es nicht. Hier liegt das Problem. Es reicht aus, dass der
       Staatsanwalt behauptet, dass es einfach so ist, und dass der Richter
       bereit ist, hierauf einzugehen. (Der erste Richter, der dieses
       Spiel nicht begriff, wurde bereits gezwungen, vorzeitigen in den
       Ruhestand zu gehen.) Der Leser glaubt vielleicht, dass es damit
       nicht seine Richtigkeit haben kann ? Aber das ist leider wahr, und
       mehrere Rechtshistoriker haben zu recht darauf hingewiesen, dass
       wir hier einer modernen Ausgabe der fru"heren Hexenprozessen
       gegenu"berstehen. Wurde man erst angeklagt, mit dem Teufel im Bunde
       zu sein, war es selten weit bis zum Galgen oder Scheiterhaufen.
       Das gro"sste von allen Verbrechen war, die Existenz des Teufels zu
       bezweifeln oder zu leugnen. Und wird man im heutigen Deutschland
       erst einmal angeklagt, zum Hass gegen Teile der Bevo"lkerung
       aufzustacheln, so ist es meist nicht weit bis zur Gefa"ngniszelle
       oder der Buchverbrennung. Ein politisches Gebot fordert, dass eine
       wissenschaftliche Kritik gewisser offizieller
       Geschichtsauffassungen bestraft werden muss, als sei sie gleichbe-
       deutend mit Aufstachelung zum Hass gegen Teile der Bevo"lkerung.
       Eine entsprechende Politisierung der Justiz in Bezug auf die
       Geschichte kennt man von Staaten mit kommunistischer Diktatur, und
       z.B. der Dominikanischen Republik. Eine solche Besessenheit hat
       Deutschland derzeit ergriffen, und da dies sehr wohl ansteckend
       sein kann, mu"ssen wir in unserem Land besonders auf der Hut sein.
       Tu"bingen beheimatet seit mehreren Jahren einen Verlag fu"r
       geschichtliche Bu"cher und Zeitschriften (Grabert). Seine
       Publikationen kann man hierzulande in allen gro"sseren
       wissenschaftlichen Bibliotheken finden, und wa"re das nicht der
       Fall, dann wa"re es auch fu"r die da"nische Geschichtsforschung ein
       Hemmschuh.1994 gab der Verlag ein grosses Werk heraus: "Grundlagen
       zur Zeitgeschichte - ein Handbuch u"ber strittige Fragen des 20.
       Jahrhunderts".Glu"cklicherweise konnte sich die Ko"nigliche
       Bibliothek in Kopenhagen ein Exemplar dieser hervorragenden Arbeit
       sichern, bevor die Polizei die Restauflage in Tu"bingen beschlag-
       nahmte. Das Buch wurde verboten. Verbrannt ! Im Juni 1996 wurde
       der Verleger zu einer Geldstrafe von DM 30.000 verurteilt, mehrere
       der Verfasser des Buches wurden zu Geldstrafen oder Gefa"ngnis ohne
       Bewa"hrung von mehr als einem Jahr verurteilt. Eine Privatperson
       wurde zu einer Geldstrafe verurteilt, nur weil er 5 Exemplare des
       Buches bestellt hatte - bevor es verboten wurde. Selbst der vom
       Gericht vernommene Sachversta"ndige (der Historiker Dr. J.
       Hoffmann) erkla"rte, dass es sich um eine bedeutende
       wissenschaftliche Arbeit handele. Die Staatsanwa"ltin, die
       u"berhaupt nicht Historiker ist, beharrte wild und ohne na"here
       Begru"ndung darauf, - in Widerspruch zum Sachversta"ndigen des
       Gerichts - dass das Buch ein "pseudowissenschaftliches Machwerk
       u"belster Sorte" sei. Mit dieser perfiden Verurteilung scheint sie
       ganz zu u"bersehen, daß nicht "Pseudowissenschaftlichkeit", sondern
       "Aufstachelung zum Hass" Gegenstand der Anklage war. Damit gab sie
       ja indirekt zu, daß es ihr mehr um das politisch Korrekte als um
       das wissenschaftlich Korrekte ging. Sie entlarvte damit, daß die
       Anklagebeho"rde in Deutschland zuweilen nur eine Marionette ist,
       dass die politische Macht in die rechtsprechende Macht eingreift,
       genau wie in gewissen totalita"ren Staaten.Ein anderes groteskes
       Urteil wurde am 21. Juni in Weinheim gefa"llt. Hier wurde Gu"nter
       Deckert, fru"her Gymnasiallehrer fu"r Englisch und Franzo"sisch zu 20
       Monaten Gefa"ngnis verurteilt - zusa"tzlich zu den 2 Jahren, die er
       gegenwa"rtig bereits verbu"sst. Zuvor war er zu mehreren Jahren
       verurteilt worden, nachdem er einen mu"ndlichen Vortrag des
       bekannten amerikanischen Gaskammerexperten Fred Leuchter u"bersetzt
       hatte. Dieser Prozess war wiederholt von einer Instanz zur anderen
       gegangen, und es weckte grosses internationales Aufsehen, als
       Richter Rainer Orlet Deckert als "verantwortungsbewusste
       Perso"nlichkeit mit klaren Grundsa"tzen" bezeichnete. (Als Kanzler
       Kohl und andere Politiker sich einmischten und Druck ausu"bten,
       kostete das Richter Orlet umgehend seine Stellung.) Und im Juni
       1996 wurde Deckert dann erneut verurteilt. Der Staatsanwalt hatte
       vier Jahre Gefa"ngnis gefordert (zusa"tzlich zu den zwei Jahren -
       und weitere Anklageschriften sind noch unterwegs !). Die Anklage
       lautete nun, daß Deckert 1990(!) einen Vortrag mit dem englischen
       Historiker David Irving geleitet hatte. Ausserdem hatte Deckert,
       der auch einen kleinen Buchhandel hatte, einige Exemplare der
       Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte verbreitet - das war bevor im Juni
       das Gericht entschied, dass das Werk verbrannt werden sollte.
       Schliesslich hatte Deckert - als Verleger - einen Abdruck seiner
       fru"heren Verfahrensakten herausgegeben - im Wesentlichen die
       Anklageschriften der Staatsanwaltschaft selbst und a"hnliches
       Material. Und nun wurde Deckert angeklagt, er habe durch die
       Herausgabe der fru"heren Anklageschriften genau dieses
       Staatsanwalts zum Hass gegen Teile der Bevo"lkerung aufgestachelt -
       noch dazu auf unwissenschaftliche Weise. Und obgleich es keine
       Beweise gab, daß Deckert etwas Derartiges tatsa"chlich getan hat,
       wurde er hart dafu"r bestraft. (Und in der Haft verweigert man ihm
       - unter Missachtung aller Regeln - Vollzugslockerungen. Es handelt
       sich um reine Schikane).Und Deckert ist durchaus nicht der
       einzige. Mehrere andere deutsche Wissenschaftler sitzen bereits im
       Gefa"ngnis oder sind auf dem Weg dorthin. Das gilt z.B. fu"r den
       hervorragenden Historiker Udo Walendy in Vlotho.Die Politisierung
       der Justiz in Deutschland ist eine Tatsache. Sie ist verscha"rft im
       Vergleich zu damals, als Da"nen bestraft werden konnten, wenn sie
       su"dlich der Grenze Vaterlandslieder sangen. To"richt und la"cherlich
       ! Selbst wenn dies zur Zeit auf gewisse "empfindliche" Themen (vor
       allem die sogenannte Auschwitz-Lu"ge) beschra"nkt ist, muss es tief
       beunruhigen, dass sich dies ausbreiten kann. Richter Rainer Orlet
       hat ein abschreckendes Beispiel gegeben. Politischer Druck zwang
       ihn vorzeitig in den Ruhestand. Der Staatsanwalt muss den
       politischen Signalen folgen. Er kann ruhig die wissenschaftlichen
       Tatsachen vom Tisch fegen. Er kann sich u"ber den Sachversta"ndigen
       des Gerichts hinwegsetzen, falls der den Mut haben sollte, sich
       politisch unkorrekt zu a"ussern. Und auch der Verteidiger hat
       Probleme: Ist er zu eifrig, dann endet er vielleicht auf der
       gleichen Anklagebank wie sein Klient. Es war daher wirklich mutig
       von Deckerts Verteidiger festzustellen, dass in Deutschland heute
       die Freiheit der Gedanken und der A"usserung nur auf dem Papier
       bestehen. Ich kenne selbst viele hervorragende deutsche
       Wissenschaftler, honorige Universita"tslehrer, nette Forscher, die
       vor dem Gesetz bibbern und zittern. Das ist wahr und das ist
       schlimm. Auf vielen Gebieten ist die da"nische Wissenschaft von der
       deutschen abha"ngig. Unfreie Wissenschaft - und unfreie Justiz -
       die nur politischen Zielen dienen, sind eine Pestilenz, die mit
       allen Mitteln beka"mpft werden muss. Die Freiheit, die wir
       hierzulande geniessen, einigermassen frei denken und sich a"ussern zu
       du"rfen, gab es nicht umsonst, und sie ist auch nicht ein
       selbstversta"ndliches Recht. Wir sollen in diesem Zusammenhang uns
       vor Augen halten, dass wir hier einem Deutschen viel zu verdanken
       haben, na"mlich dem weitblickenden Johann Friedrich Struensee und
       seiner Reform zur Druckfreiheit 1770:   "Das es sowohl fu"r die
       unparteiische Untersuchung der Wahrheit scha"dlich wie auch
       hinderlich zur Aufkla"rung der Verirrungen und Vorurteile alter
       Zeiten ist, wenn redlich gesinnte und pflichteifrige Patrioten
       durch Rufscha"digung, Befehle oder vorgefasste Meinungen davon
       abgeschreckt oder daran gehindert werden, frei nach ihrer
       Einsicht, ihrem Gewissen, ihrer U"berzeugung zu schreiben, sowie
       Missbrauch anzugreifen und Vorurteile vor Augen zu fu"hren: deshalb
       wird in den Reichen und La"ndern des Ko"nigs eine allgemeine
       uneingeschra"nkte Freiheit fu"r die Buchdruckereien zugelassen
       (14.9.1770)        Es muss weiterhin fu"r das freie Wort und die
       freie Forschung geka"mpft werden. Es gibt viele, die ein
       perso"nliches oder politisches Interesse daran haben, die Meinungs-
       und A"usserungsfreiheit anderer zu unterdru"cken. Es ist unsere
       selbstversta"ndliche Pflicht, sich gegen solche Bestrebungen zu
       Wort zu melden.
       

       Gepostet von 
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Jan  9 11:15:53 PST 1997
Article: 93828 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news1.tele.dk!cph-1.news.DK.net!dkuug!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Trial against the former East German borderguards
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 12:22:33 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References:      
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>> >That does not matter as the international human right is superior to
>> >national law or any orders. 
>>
>> I am not so sure about that. 
>
>But I am.
>
Hm. Do we then already have a world government?
>
>> In my country the constitution says that their is no authority beside or 
>> above the parliament. If the parliament subscribe to all of the human 
>> rights they are valid. 
>
>As your country is member of the UN it did sign the Universal Declaration
>of Human Rights. And a lot more of covenants and treaties dealing with
>human rights. Shall I give you a list ?
>
 But by signing them you have not given up sovereignty. There is still no
world government.

>
>> If a majority of the parliament want unsubscribe to some of the human 
>> rights they can do so. 
>
>Of course. But it _has_ to do so and it has to declare its unsubscription.
>To restrict it to the International Declaration of Human Rights it would
>have to leave the UN as this Declaration is one of its founding documents.
>
Is it so bad to be outside the UN? As far as I know Switzerland is not
a member and until recently Germany was neither. I say that national law
should always overrule international law. This is a sound principle.

>
> With human rights
>it is different in that way that you have to leave the international
>community if declaring violations as lawful.

 To me the socalled international community is only representing some
kind of alien tyranny and hegemony. Being outside would not be that bad 
indeed.

>   To make it more specific: to realize your plan for ethnic cleansing
>Denmark would have to leave the UN and break with its most basic
>principles. 

 I hope that all the European nations will implement the same meassures
for the creation of ethnic homogeneity. I am aware that the plan may be
unrealistic if it was only tried out in a small country like Denmark.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Jan  9 14:03:41 PST 1997
Article: 93841 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Unions
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 21:31:41 +0100
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In article <32D3F853.4744@uab.edu>, Jan den Hollander  wrote:
>
>Well, a few decennia of propaganda in favor of internationalism is not
>enough to offset over 1000 years of nationalist propaganda. Add to that religious
>differences, and social injustice, and you have a mix that will take a
>very long time to overcome.

So you believe that nationalism is the root to all evil. Communism was
internationalistic and still more people died in communist camps than in
nazi camps in this century.

>> >Despite all the differences the countries of Europe do have common roots, namely
>> >western culture going back to ancient Greece and Rome, and Christianity.
>> 
>>  Yes, but this is not enough to form a coherent and harmonious nation. In
>> Northern Ireland the British and the Irish have the same roots, 
>
>You must be kidding to think that British and Irish have the same roots.

 You are the one who claims that all Europeans have the same roots. I was 
just trying to follow your way of thinking and it's consequences. Europeans 
may have much in common such as race, Western culture etc. but they have that 
too in common with Americans, Canadians, New Zeelanders, Australians etc.. 
As I use to say when I am discussing the EU with Americans: "As a Dane I 
have not more in common with a Frenchman than an American". I have often
been to the USA and I feel more at home in Des Moines and Minneapolis than 
in Berlin or Paris.


>The problem in Northern Ireland is the there is a huge schism between
>Protestants and Catholics, not only in religion, but also in economic
>wealth. 

 It has not really so much to do with different religions as with different
nationalities. The Catholics are Irish and the Protestants are British.

>Despite some 3 centuries of British nothing was done to overcome
>those differences, on the contrary.
>
 Well should they have tried to make the Irish British? I think that this
would have been as difficult as to make the French-Canadians Anglo-Canadian. 

>
>The interesting fact remains that while Europe is fragmented in many
>nationalities, that that is not so elsewhere in the world.
>Take China, a country as large as the whole of Europe, with a population
>twice as large, yet all those people see themselves as Chinese.

 Hm. You still have different nations in Asia such as China, Korea, 
Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand etc..

>That despite large differences in language (they call it dialects,
>but the difference between different Chinese dialects is larger than the
>difference between various European languages, 

 Take Scandinavia. Culturally, historically and lingually (exception Finnish 
language) the Scandinavians are closer related with each other than they are 
with e.g. Germans and Frenchmen. I think that this obvious.

>Other example: the USA, again as large as all of Europe, with people of
>many different origins. Yet, Americans tend to see themselves as Americans
>first.

 This is because all Americans speak the same language and have the same 
American culture. In your neighbour country Canada the situation is different 
concerning Quebec versus the rest of Canada. Much like in Europe.

>
> Have you ever noticed that in American
>movies and tv series blacks always play the role of the good guy, never ever
>the role of the bad guy? Why do you think that is?

 It is in order to manipulate people into believing that "race does not 
exist" and on "under the skin we are all the same" and all that.

>
>Finally, have you been watching TV lately? Have you seen what has been going
>on in the former Yugoslavia? 

Yugoslavia is a good example that multinational unions suck.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Jan  9 14:03:42 PST 1997
Article: 93842 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.german,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Unions
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 20:46:26 +0100
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In article <5au2vu$f0r@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>, Jorma Kypp| wrote:
>
>Today many of the Swedes have Finnish ancestors including eg. Tage
>Erlander, Selma Lagerlof, etc, etc... even Olof Palme, in away:)

 But all these Finns have been totally assimilated. It is not like in 
Belgium, Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia. In Denmark there have 
been  immigration from Germany from time immorial. All these Germans have 
been fully assimilated except in Slesvig that had a different status than the
rest of the country. After 1920 where Northern Slesvig became fully 
integrated in Denmark the number of Germans have dropped drastic. In 1920 
there were towns where 80 or 90 percent voted for Germany. Today I do not 
think that you can find any Danish town in North Slesvig with more than 20 
per cent Germans.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Jan  9 16:55:20 PST 1997
Article: 91999 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's Krap: The Fixation on Wascally Joos
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:06:24 +0100
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In article <5asblk$jnf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>
>I do not understand why it is that Mr. Kreiberg continues to
>"forget" about the six million non-Jewish victims.... is there
>some specific reason he seems so fixated on the Jews?
>
>What's with Kreigurggle and the Joos?
>
We have already been through that. See my posting to Mike Curtis elsewhere.
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan 11 07:21:58 PST 1997
Article: 92160 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Laws of the InterNet - world chaos?
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:10:20 +0100
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In article , Joel Rosenberg wrote:
>
>And, under Danish law, he can only be extradicted if what he did in the 
>country to which he is being extradited to would be illegal in Denmark.   

 Come on, nothing of what he has done in USA would have been really illegal 
in Denmark. He was extradited after pressure and bullying from Germany.
Law professors said he could perhaps at most get 2 weeks of prison in 
Denmark for slandering ethnic minorities but this would not be enough for 
extradition. At least one year is necessary to be extradited. It's unlikely 
that Danish citizens would be prosecuted for merely thought crimes. Even 
political correct journalists and anti-racists agreed that Denmark extradited 
Lauck in order to please Germany and preventing foreign nazis from using 
Denmark to as base for forbidden activities in Germany, because there is more 
political freedom in Denmark than Germany. In the last decades there has 
been an outright nazi party in Denmark and none of it's members have ever 
been charged with thought-crimes or political dissent. They even run their 
own radio station. However they are all Danish citizens and cannot be
extradited to Denmark. All their material is in Danish language and 
therefore does not bother German authorites.

>
>>On the second day of the trial, the 
>>lead judge announced that Mr. Lauck was facing fifteen years in prison! 
>>The U.S. State Department lodged no protest, no complaint, with either 
>>the Danish or German governments over this outrageous crime. 
>
>Perhaps because it wasn't a "crime."  One can certainly disagree with German 
>and Danish law 


  The Germans promised the Danish authorities that he would not get more
than 5 years. They broke their promise and he is now facing 15 years for 
merely thought-crimes in Germany. This case really stinks.

>on these matters (I disagree slightly with the German law, and 
>am in accord with the Danish law) without misinterpreting it as a "crime."

 There was no crime. It is not a crime to be a nazi or express nazi views.
His incarcaration is political repression and nothing else. In Germany
the courts and prisons are abused to political repression


--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan 11 10:13:13 PST 1997
Article: 93895 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Trial against the former East German borderguards
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 20:31:44 -0100
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In article <32D52106.49ED@ix.netcom.com>, Joe Mama  wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
>> I say that national law
>> should always overrule international law. This is a sound principle.
>> 
>
>Absolutely. So Germany (for instance) can pass a law to annex Denmark,
>and if Hamlet, et.al. don't like the scenario, they can always fight it
>out :-)

 Hm. This would not be wise. Last time Germany invaded another country in 
order to annex land a world war started. 

 The Soviet Union too annexed neighbour countries and exercised hegemony. 
This was the cause of the Cold War - the fear of Soviet expansionism.
 
 It is only in internal affairs that national law naturally should overrule
international law.   
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan 11 10:13:14 PST 1997
Article: 93905 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,de.soc.politik
Subject: Re: Deutschland verletzt die Freiheit der Meinungsa"usserung
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:03:37 +0100
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In article <32D5FD4F.7315A19E@noether.math.uni-kiel.de>, Thorsten Bauer  wrote:
>
>Wie waere es, wenn Du erst einmal Nordschleswig wieder zurueckschickst?
>Das wuerde unsere Freunde aus der nationalen Ecke doch sicher sehr 
>freuen. :->
>
  Eben Hitler hatte gesagt, dass die deutsch-daenische Grenze fest liegt. 
Der nationalitaetsfrage im Nord- und Suedschlewig ist ein lokales problem,
hatte er weiter gesagt. Diese Aeusserungen hatten die damaligen 
Deutschgesinnten Nordschleswigern geaegert.

  Ich habe niemals gehoert, dass heutige nationalgesinnte Deutschen oder
Daenen die Grenze aendern wollen. In der Scleswig-Holsteinische Parlament 
war vor ein par Jahren sowohl die daenische Minderheit als der 
national gesinnte Deutsche Volksunion vertretet. Gaben es problemen? 

Die Grenze liegt fest. Das ist gesunde Vernunft.

(Ich endschuldige meine Deutch. Leider habe ich nicht so viele Uebung in
Deutch wie in English)

Mit nationalem Gruss,

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan 11 10:13:15 PST 1997
Article: 93906 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,de.soc.politik
Subject: Re: Deutschland verletzt die Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:58:38 +0100
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In article , Christian Lindtner wrote:
>
>        1994 gab der Verlag ein großes Werk heraus: "Grundlagen zur 
>       Zeitgeschichte - ein Handbuch über strittige Fragen des 20.
>       Jahrhunderts".Glücklicherweise konnte sich die Königliche
>       Bibliothek in Kopenhagen ein Exemplar dieser hervorragenden Arbeit
>       sichern, bevor die Polizei die Restauflage in Tübingen beschlag-
>       nahmte. Das Buch wurde verboten. Verbrannt! 

 Moegen Sie dieses gefaerliche, verbotene und gebrannte Buch lesen, brauchen 
Sie untenstehendes Website: 

http://www.codoh.com
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan 11 20:22:50 PST 1997
Article: 93973 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Has the German government grown since 1945?
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:44:26 -0100
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In article <32e1a5fd.4710601@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>>>Say, why don't you tell me in what way an attempt
>>>to exonerate Nazi Germany from its most heineous 
>>>crime is UNpolitical? 
>>
>>If you are only looking for truth and justice.
>>
>
>Truth and justice for whom? 

For everybody inclusive of the nazis.

>
>Why don't you read the article. McVay is pretty good at showing where
>quotes come from.

He hasn't been in this case.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Jan 11 22:59:02 PST 1997
Article: 92375 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Has the German government grown since 1945?
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:44:26 -0100
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In article <32e1a5fd.4710601@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>>>Say, why don't you tell me in what way an attempt
>>>to exonerate Nazi Germany from its most heineous 
>>>crime is UNpolitical? 
>>
>>If you are only looking for truth and justice.
>>
>
>Truth and justice for whom? 

For everybody inclusive of the nazis.

>
>Why don't you read the article. McVay is pretty good at showing where
>quotes come from.

He hasn't been in this case.

--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan 13 07:14:08 PST 1997
Article: 92567 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:53:42 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>>
>> Please point out something [nazi ideology introduced in Denmark]. I have 
>> never been able to find anything.
>
>History lessons should have told you lots of. Just from 33 on the
>Danish-German exchange of students and pupils was encouraged by the German
>side. 
>Danish guests were heavily indoctrinated with social-darvinism and
>race-theory. 

 Sure many young people went to the Soviet Union and the communist countries
the same way. Today there is an exchange between students of many countries.
And where ever they go they will learn about the countries in which they are 
staying.

>Not just in school as one preferred to let them stay with
>Nazis by heart and try to do its best to spread national-socialism when
>back in Denmark. Following the occupation it was tried to convince the
>Danish people to join the War on the German side. Numerous Danes went into
>prison for opposing the German policy.

 They were regarded a security risk. In e.g. England and the United States
people that might be regarded a secury risk were interned too. E.g.
all Americans of Japanese descent were interned whether or not they were
political active. That is the way things often are during a war. As far as 
I know even in neutral Sweden many communists were interned only for being
communists.


>   To be honest I find yourself contradictionary. On one hand you agitate
>against "nowadays German influence as under the Nazis" on the other hand
>you tend to say that there was no influence at all, but Denmark just
>occupied for strategic reasons but never tried to be nazified by the
>German side.

 I say that there were no _ideological_hegemony, but there certainly was a 
politically influence or hegemony. Germmany exercised a full hegemony over 
all those parts of Danish political life that were regarded of vital 
interest of Germany - first and foremost it's foreign policy. A typical 
example of this hegemony was the Anti-Komintern Treaty of 1941 signed by the 
Danish government in Berlin. Because of that the Danish communist party was 
prohibited (an act against the constitution) and young men were asked to 
join voluntarily the German crusade against communism. The only reason those 
voluntaries ended up in the Waffen SS was because the regular army 
(Wehrmacht) only enlisted German citizens and that the uniforms of the 
Danish army looked too much like the Russian. People from all over Europe 
participated in this crusade against Bolshevism. Even people from outside of 
Europe were there. General Franco from Spain sent the Azur division in which 
many Arabs and Berbers from Spanish Marocco were enlisted. For most of all 
these foreigners it was a war against communism and not against some Slav 
"subhumans".

>
>As dealing with self-contradiction:
>
>> >> Remember that Hitler said several times that national socialism knows 
>> >> only Germany and is not meant for export.
>> >
>> >In fact he did try to export it to almost every country in Europe and even
>> >to America. And he did dream of a national-socialist Europe under German
>> >leadership as easily figured out by reading "Mein Kampf" or studying plans
>> >stipulated by Hitler and developped in detail by Rosenberg.
>> > 
>>  This is not true. He wanted hegemoni over Europe like Helmuth Kohl. 
>
>Could you please explain how Hitler did want hegemony without exporting
>National-Socialism whereas he explicitely did plan to national-socialize
>the world ?  

 Are you saying that he wanted to make all people in the world national 
socialist even Africans and Chinese? 

 I think that you Germans have a problem with taking the full and sole 
reponsibility for nazism. I am sorry but I do not think you will find many 
people in Denmark or elsewhere that are willing to share this with you.

>And could you please detail how Kohl is according to your
>opinion doing the same or explain in which way "Kohl is similiar to
>Hitler" ?  

 Hitler wanted to dominate the other European countries something the way
that the  USA is dominating it's Latinamerican neighbours (speak softly and 
carry a big stick as president Theodore Roosevelt once said) or the way that
the Soviets used to exercise hegemony over Finnish foreign policy. If Hitler 
had won the war I think that Denmark would have been treated the same way as 
Finland was by the Soviet Union during the cold war.


>Reading your postings one could come to the conclusion that
>Kohl is even worse than Hitler, FRG worse than Drittes Reich. 
>

 Kohl is more successfull. His means are democratic but his goals are much
the same - German influence over the rest of Europe based on the size
of it's population and in particular of size of it's economy.

>
>> Hitler was first and foremost a German chauvinist.
>
>I don't think that anybody will share this view. 

 But Hitler said several times that national socialism knows only Germany 
and is not meant for export. He said so in his last speech too. Why are 
denying that?

>Either you don't know
>what he was or you try to belittle in order to follow a very strange path
>of adopting him partially and on the other hand rejecting him because of
>wrong nationality. Seems you could have lived well with Hitler if he only
>had been Danish.

 I am not in favour of dictatorship. I do not understand why you are 
bothering me with this Hitler. I am Danish and a product of Danish history,
culture and mentality and to me Hitler was foreigner whom I do not identify 
with. I can perhaps agree with some of his racial views but only to a 
certain extent. E.g. to me Polish, Russian and other Slavs are as White as 
other Europeans.  

>
>Biologically all human beings are of one race. 

 You mean the same species. Concerning race are you denying that there are
the Caucasian, Mongolian, and Negroid race?

>

PS I will be off-line most of the time for the next 2 weeks. 
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan 13 07:53:05 PST 1997
Article: 94066 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The history of WW2 and soc.culture.german
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:41:30 +0100
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References: <32cb29d9.174179993@news.dmsc.net> <5ahtth$g3l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <5b1ffp$rum@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <5b1ffp$rum@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>
>But we have not been discussing history, Mr. Kreiger - we have
>been discussing the denial of history, which I didn't see in the
>FAQ.
>
Has the "denial" of a certain historical event nothing to do with history?
Or is the alleged holocaust not a historical event?
--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Jan 13 17:03:43 PST 1997
Article: 94124 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Christian Lindtner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,de.soc.politik
Subject: Deutschland verletzt die Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:47:19 +0100
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        [Eine Deutsche Uebersetzung von einem Artikel in der Daenische
        Zeitung, Information 19/10-1997, geschrieben von 
        Dr. Phil Christian Lindtner]

              Deutschland verletzt die Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung

        PRIVAT mehrere deutsche Wissenschaftler sitzen im Gefängnis oder 
       sind auf dem Weg dorthin. Selbst der Abdruck einer offiziellen
       Anklageschrift kann eine strafbare "Volksverhetzung" sein. Die
       Entwicklung muß für Dänemark, das vom südlichen Nachbar auf
       vielfältiger Weise abhängig ist, Anlaß zu Sorge geben.Wenn der
       Leser glaubte, daß öffentliche Buchverbrennungen glücklicherweise
       der Vergangenheit angehören, dann muß er seinen Glauben ändern. Er
       muß leider nur seinen Blick hinunter zu unserem großen südlichen
       Nachbarn wenden.
        Nun ist Deutschland ansonsten ja nicht das, was man als 
       rückständiges Entwicklungsland bezeichnet. Im Gegenteil, gerade 
       diese Nation hat auf fast allen Gebieten der Wissenschaft eine 
       führende Stellung eingenommen, und die Forschung und Technik anderer 
       Länder hat davon zu allen Zeiten voller Bewunderung und
       Lernbegier profitiert.
        Gerade deshalb gibt es gute Gründe auf der Acht zu sein, wenn es 
       dazu kommt, daß selbst deutsche Politiker offen einräumen, daß es 
       Probleme mit der Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung gibt, und einige von 
       ihnen beginnen, Druck auf die Gerichte auszuüben, um politisch 
       genehme Urteile durchzusetzen.In den letzten Monaten gab es mehrere 
       beunruhigende Fälle derartiger politischer Justiz mit dem Ziel, 
       Einzelpersonen und Verlage zu strafen und abzuschrecken, die 
       Freiheitsrechte in Anspruch zu nehmen, die ihnen ansonsten 
       ausdrücklich durch das Grundgesetz des eigenen Landes wie auch durch 
       internationale Absprachen und Abkommen zugesichert wird.
      
        In der Theorie erlaubt das deutsche Grundgesetz (§ 5) 
       selbstverständlich jedem, seine Meinung in Wort, Schrift und Bild zu 
       äußern, wie auch Kunst, Wissenschaft und Forschung als frei erklärt 
       werden. Die Grenze wird - wie bei uns und anderenorts - nur durch den 
       verständlichen Wunsch gezogen, die allerstörendsten, verletzendsten 
       und anstößigsten A"ußerungen zu dämpfen. Es muß eine gewisse 
       Rücksicht auf den Frieden des Privatlebens und die öffentliche Ruhe 
       und Ordnung genommen werden.
        Aber in der Praxis ist das ganz anders. Was die deutsche 
       Gesetzgebung mit der einen Hand gibt, versucht sie dann mit der 
       anderen zu nehmen. Mit Gefängnis bis zu 5 Jahren kann das Gesetz 
       (§ 130 StGB) den strafen, der, wie es heißt, "zum Haß gegen Teile der 
       Bevölkerung aufstachelt". Eines sachlichen wissenschaftlichen 
       Beweises dafür, daß jemand tatsächlich, in der *gegebenen Weise, mit 
       einem bestimmten Ziel und mit einem konkreten Ergebnis überhaupt in 
       einem bestimmten Maß Haß gegen einen Teil der Bevölkerung zu wecken 
       vermag oder vermochte, bedarf es nicht.

        Hier liegt das Problem. Es reicht aus, daß der Staatsanwalt 
       behauptet, daß es einfach so ist, und daß der Richter bereit ist, 
       hierauf einzugehen. (Der erste Richter, der dieses Spiel nicht 
       begriff, wurde bereits gezwungen, vorzeitigen in den Ruhestand zu 
       gehen.)
        Der Leser glaubt vielleicht, daß es damit nicht seine Richtigkeit 
       haben kann ? Aber das ist leider wahr, und mehrere Rechtshistoriker 
       haben zu recht darauf hingewiesen, daß wir hier einer modernen 
       Ausgabe der früheren Hexenprozessen gegenüberstehen. Wurde man erst 
       angeklagt, mit dem Teufel im Bunde zu sein, war es selten weit bis 
       zum Galgen oder Scheiterhaufen.
        Das größte von allen Verbrechen war, die Existenz des Teufels zu
       bezweifeln oder zu leugnen. Und wird man im heutigen Deutschland
       erst einmal angeklagt, zum Haß gegen Teile der Bevölkerung
       aufzustacheln, so ist es meist nicht weit bis zur Gefängniszelle
       oder der Buchverbrennung. 
        Ein politisches Gebot fordert, daß eine wissenschaftliche Kritik 
       gewisser offizieller Geschichtsauffassungen bestraft werden muß, als 
       sei sie gleichbedeutend mit Aufstachelung zum Haß gegen Teile der 
       Bevölkerung. Eine entsprechende Politisierung der Justiz in Bezug auf 
       die Geschichte kennt man von Staaten mit kommunistischer Diktatur, 
       und z.B. der Dominikanischen Republik.

        Eine solche Besessenheit hat Deutschland derzeit ergriffen, und da 
       dies sehr wohl ansteckend sein kann, müssen wir in unserem Land 
       besonders auf der Hut sein. Tübingen beheimatet seit mehreren Jahren 
       einen Verlag für geschichtliche Bücher und Zeitschriften (Grabert). 
       Seine Publikationen kann man hierzulande in allen größeren
       wissenschaftlichen Bibliotheken finden, und wäre das nicht der
       Fall, dann wäre es auch für die dänische Geschichtsforschung ein
       Hemmschuh.
        1994 gab der Verlag ein großes Werk heraus: "Grundlagen zur 
       Zeitgeschichte - ein Handbuch über strittige Fragen des 20.
       Jahrhunderts".Glücklicherweise konnte sich die Königliche
       Bibliothek in Kopenhagen ein Exemplar dieser hervorragenden Arbeit
       sichern, bevor die Polizei die Restauflage in Tübingen beschlag-
       nahmte. Das Buch wurde verboten. Verbrannt ! Im Juni 1996 wurde
       der Verleger zu einer Geldstrafe von DM 30.000 verurteilt, mehrere
       der Verfasser des Buches wurden zu Geldstrafen oder Gefängnis ohne
       Bewährung von mehr als einem Jahr verurteilt. Eine Privatperson
       wurde zu einer Geldstrafe verurteilt, nur weil er 5 Exemplare des
       Buches bestellt hatte - bevor es verboten wurde.
        Selbst der vom Gericht vernommene Sachverständige (der Historiker 
       Dr. J. Hoffmann) erklärte, daß es sich um eine bedeutende
       wissenschaftliche Arbeit handele. Die Staatsanwältin, die
       überhaupt nicht Historiker ist, beharrte wild und ohne nähere
       Begründung darauf, - in Widerspruch zum Sachverständigen des
       Gerichts - daß das Buch ein "pseudowissenschaftliches Machwerk
       übelster Sorte" sei. Mit dieser perfiden Verurteilung scheint sie
       ganz zu übersehen, daß nicht "Pseudowissenschaftlichkeit", sondern
       "Aufstachelung zum Haß" Gegenstand der Anklage war. Damit gab sie
       ja indirekt zu, daß es ihr mehr um das politisch Korrekte als um
       das wissenschaftlich Korrekte ging. Sie entlarvte damit, daß die
       Anklagebehörde in Deutschland zuweilen nur eine Marionette ist,
       daß die politische Macht in die rechtsprechende Macht eingreift,
       genau wie in gewissen totalitären Staaten.
        Ein anderes groteskes Urteil wurde am 21. Juni in Weinheim gefällt. 
       Hier wurde Günter Deckert, früher Gymnasiallehrer für Englisch und 
       Französisch zu 20 Monaten Gefängnis verurteilt - zusätzlich zu den 2 
       Jahren, die er gegenwärtig bereits verbüßt. Zuvor war er zu mehreren 
       Jahren verurteilt worden, nachdem er einen mündlichen Vortrag des
       bekannten amerikanischen Gaskammerexperten Fred Leuchter übersetzt
       hatte.
        Dieser Prozeß war wiederholt von einer Instanz zur anderen gegangen, 
       und es weckte großes internationales Aufsehen, als Richter Rainer 
       Orlet Deckert als "verantwortungsbewußte Persönlichkeit mit klaren 
       Grundsätzen" bezeichnete. (Als Kanzler Kohl und andere Politiker sich 
       einmischten und Druck ausübten, kostete das Richter Orlet umgehend 
       seine Stellung.) Und im Juni 1996 wurde Deckert dann erneut 
       verurteilt. 
        Der Staatsanwalt hatte vier Jahre Gefängnis gefordert (zusätzlich 
       zu den zwei Jahren - und weitere Anklageschriften sind noch 
       unterwegs !). Die Anklage lautete nun, daß Deckert 1990(!) einen 
       Vortrag mit dem englischen Historiker David Irving geleitet hatte. 
       Außerdem hatte Deckert, der auch einen kleinen Buchhandel hatte, 
       einige Exemplare der Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte verbreitet - das 
       war bevor im Juni das Gericht entschied, daß das Werk verbrannt 
       werden sollte. Schließlich hatte Deckert - als Verleger - einen 
       Abdruck seiner früheren Verfahrensakten herausgegeben - im 
       Wesentlichen die Anklageschriften der Staatsanwaltschaft selbst und 
       ähnliches Material. Und nun wurde Deckert angeklagt, er habe durch 
       die Herausgabe der früheren Anklageschriften genau dieses
       Staatsanwalts zum Haß gegen Teile der Bevölkerung aufgestachelt -
       noch dazu auf unwissenschaftliche Weise. Und obgleich es keine
       Beweise gab, daß Deckert etwas Derartiges tatsächlich getan hat,
       wurde er hart dafür bestraft. (Und in der Haft verweigert man ihm
       - unter Mißachtung aller Regeln - Vollzugslockerungen. Es handelt
       sich um reine Schikane).
       Und Deckert ist durchaus nicht der einzige. Mehrere andere deutsche 
       Wissenschaftler sitzen bereits im Gefängnis oder sind auf dem Weg 
       dorthin. Das gilt z.B. für den hervorragenden Historiker Udo Walendy 
       in Vlotho.
       
       Die Politisierung der Justiz in Deutschland ist eine Tatsache. Sie 
       ist verschärft im Vergleich zu damals, als Dänen bestraft werden 
       konnten, wenn sie südlich der Grenze Vaterlandslieder sangen. Töricht 
       und lächerlich! Selbst wenn dies zur Zeit auf gewisse "empfindliche" 
       Themen (vor allem die sogenannte Auschwitz-Lüge) beschränkt ist, muß 
       es tief beunruhigen, daß sich dies ausbreiten kann.
        Richter Rainer Orlet hat ein abschreckendes Beispiel gegeben. 
       Politischer Druck zwang ihn vorzeitig in den Ruhestand. Der 
       Staatsanwalt muß den politischen Signalen folgen. Er kann ruhig die 
       wissenschaftlichen Tatsachen vom Tisch fegen. Er kann sich über den 
       Sachverständigen des Gerichts hinwegsetzen, falls der den Mut haben 
       sollte, sich politisch unkorrekt zu äußern. Und auch der Verteidiger 
       hat Probleme: Ist er zu eifrig, dann endet er vielleicht auf der
       gleichen Anklagebank wie sein Klient.

        Es war daher wirklich mutig von Deckerts Verteidiger festzustellen, 
       daß in Deutschland heute die Freiheit der Gedanken und der a"ußerung 
       nur auf dem Papier bestehen.
        Ich kenne selbst viele hervorragende deutsche Wissenschaftler, 
       honorige Universitätslehrer, nette Forscher, die vor dem Gesetz 
       bibbern und zittern.
        Das ist wahr und das ist schlimm. Auf vielen Gebieten ist die 
       dänische Wissenschaft von der deutschen abhängig. Unfreie 
       Wissenschaft - und unfreie Justiz - die nur politischen Zielen dienen, 
       sind eine Pestilenz, die mit allen Mitteln bekämpft werden muß. Die 
       Freiheit, die wir hierzulande genießen, einigermaßen frei denken und 
       sich äußern zu dürfen, gab es nicht umsonst, und sie ist auch nicht 
       ein selbstverständliches Recht. Wir sollen in diesem Zusammenhang uns
       vor Augen halten, daß wir hier einem Deutschen viel zu verdanken
       haben, nämlich dem weitblickenden Johann Friedrich Struensee und
       seiner Reform zur Druckfreiheit 1770:

        "Das es sowohl für die unparteiische Untersuchung der Wahrheit 
       schädlich wie auch hinderlich zur Aufklärung der Verirrungen und 
       Vorurteile alter Zeiten ist, wenn redlich gesinnte und pflichteifrige 
       Patrioten durch Rufschädigung, Befehle oder vorgefaßte Meinungen 
       davon abgeschreckt oder daran gehindert werden, frei nach ihrer
       Einsicht, ihrem Gewissen, ihrer Überzeugung zu schreiben, sowie
       Mißbrauch anzugreifen und Vorurteile vor Augen zu führen: deshalb
       wird in den Reichen und Ländern des Königs eine allgemeine
       uneingeschränkte Freiheit für die Buchdruckereien zugelassen
       (14.9.1770)". 
       
        Es muß weiterhin für das freie Wort und die freie Forschung gekämpft 
       werden. Es gibt viele, die ein persönliches oder politisches 
       Interesse daran haben, die Meinungs- und A"ußerungsfreiheit anderer 
       zu unterdrücken. Es ist unsere selbstverständliche Pflicht, sich 
       gegen solche Bestrebungen zu Wort zu melden.
   
       Gepostet von


--
Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk


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