The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/koch.manfred/1996/koch.0296


	---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456421-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 457158
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  DENNIS  X. McCORMAC 102567,3466
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  16:48:51

 >>So how were all those people killed, then, before they were brought to the
 crematorium?  Firing squads?  This is a sincere question, not a challenge.
 And actually, the method is academic - what matters is the result.  DXM.<<

 That is very surprising. First of all; were do you get the idea of;  >>So how
 were all those people killed, then, before they were brought to the
 crematorium?<<   The Revisionists dispute is because of those people NOT
being
 killed, that's the primary dispute   Aside from the fact that Jews were only
a
 small part of the 'victims', the camps suffered from supply shortages, due to
 Allied carpet-bombing.  Nothing was able to move in Germany anymore.  There
 was, in almost every camp an out- break of typhoid and other deadly diseases
 which created havoc amongst the inmates.  Furthermore, bombing of the camps
 and, of course, natural occurring deaths, as in every human society, took
 their toll as well.  I don't think anybody wants to dispute that Jews, as
well
 as others, died in German camps, however, there was no *planned* mass-murder
 of people just because they were Jewish.  All warring nations had their camps
 for  -Enemies of the State-, in which people died quite naturally and of in-
 and outside influences.

 Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have been
 challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist" scholars
 do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to the camp,
 or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other diseases. But the
 compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz was not an
extermination
 center and that the story of mass killings in "gas chambers" is a myth.
 The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central
 Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and mid-1944.
 The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was
 supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III, was
 a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In addition
 there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war economy.
 At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
 exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was
invented
 by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years. Today no reputable
 historian, not even those who generally accept the extermination story,
 believes this figure.   Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer said in 1989
 that it is time to finally acknowledge the familiar four million figure is a
 deliberate myth.   In July 1990 the Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along
 with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Center, suddenly announced that altogether
 perhaps one million people (both Jews and non-Jews) died there.   Neither
 institution would say how many of these people were killed, nor were any
 estimates given of the numbers of those supposedly gassed.
 One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
 perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz.   While even these lower
 figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
 drastically over the years.
 At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically
 electrocuted at Auschwitz.   American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness
 report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the
 methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on
 which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously,  then moved
on
 into furnaces.   They were burned almost instantly, producing fertilizer for
 nearby cabbage fields."
 And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged
 that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously 
"vaporize"
 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of
 them."  No reputable historian
 now accepts either of these fanciful tales.
 A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant
 Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution at
 the main Nuremberg trial.   Although it is still widely cited as solid proof
 for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is
 actually a false statement that was obtained by torture.
 Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard
 Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former
 commandant to obtain his "confession." Hoess himself privately explained his
 ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and
 half million Jews.   I could just as well have said that it was five million
 Jews.   There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained,
 whether it is true or not."
 Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now
 acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Hoess
"affidavit"
 are simply not true.   For one thing, no serious scholar now claims that
 anything like two and a half or three million people
 perished in Auschwitz.  The Hoess "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were
 already being exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps:
 Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek.   The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Hoess is a
 total invention.   No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned
 in Holocaust literature.   Moreover, the story these days by those who
believe
 in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at Auschwitz,
 Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.  Many thousands of secret German
 documents dealing with Auschwitz were confiscated after the war by the
Allies.
 Not a single one refers to a policy or program of extermination.   In fact,
 the extermination story cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence.
 For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable
to
 work were immediately killed.   Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak
 were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to
death
 were temporarily kept alive. But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very
high
 percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless
 not killed.   For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4,
 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic
and
 Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in
 Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish
 inmates - some 21,500, or about 86 percent - were unable to work.
 This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security
 measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp
 system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler.   Pohl reported that there was a total
 of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were
 hospitalized or disabled.   In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly
 the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of
 whom approximately 15,000 are unable to work."
 These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz
 extermination story.   The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was
 established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including
 the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting
 assignment to other camps. The reason for the unusually high death rate
there.

 Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish,
acknowledges
 in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at
 Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were
executed.

 Dennis, before you answer, please, read this post many times over to make
sure
 you understand it.

 =Manfred


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456835-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 457155
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  16:48:30

  >>    There are many thousands of reports and court cases, testimonies of
 victims and confessions of wrongdoers about the extermination process in
 Auschwitz.  What has been lacking until now was proof of the technical
 implementation of the mass murder.<<
 What was NOT lacking was the BIG LIE number of 4 mill. for the past 50 years,
 untill Revisionists poked-around and found the incongruities.  The FINAL
 number is still out.

 >>    This has given an opening to the "Revisionists," an Internationale of
 amateur historians, mostly admitted Nazis, who wish to deny or minimize the
 crime . . .<<
 Amateurs -only in the eyes of the holocaust-pundits.  It is still DANGEROUS,
 in Germany and other European countries   to write the gospel truth about the
 subject, however, I think it won't belong before that is allowed to do so.
 Every time the REVISIONISTS come up with new findings, the holocaust-lobby
 falls into complete denial, until it is impossible to hold the 'Fort' any
 longer, they then will admit to some wrong information or blame others for
the
 incongruities.  But first, denial, denial, denial.

 >>    After years of detective work, it has fallen, of all people, to
 Jean-Claude Pressac, a collaborator of the chief French Revisionist, Robert
 Faurisson, to present exact references for the construction and operation of
 the extermination camp Auschwitz-Birkenau.<<
 The numbers Pressac presented are as varied as the annual seasons.  His
latest
 count is down from 928 000 to 470 000.

 >>    In his researches, Pressac found letters, plans and offers from an
 Erfurt firm named Topf and Sons, which supplied the technical equipment for
 the gas chambers and furnaces. <<
 Pressac, an   >Internationale of amateur historians< himself,  found a lot of
 things, but not the truth.  Why would anybody give this drugstore-owner any
 creedence?  What credentials does he have?  'Topf und Sohne' only fabricated
 crematories and did not built gaschambers.  How this can be construed as
proof
 for mass-murder, I don't know, since every country, every city has
crematories
 to take care of the dead.  Thyphus victims HAVE to be burned to prevent
 contamination of the whole area.

 >> Although the "Final Solution" project was surrounded by strict secrecy,
the
 engineers write openly about "crematoriums and incinerations capacities" in
 the technical documentation<<
 Like any normal handbook or manual should, what 'proof' is this supposed to
 be?  We openly see the desperation of the holocaust-pundits scaping the
barrel
 for 'horror' material.

 >>    Pressac calculates for the camp "Auschwitz-Birkenau" (distinct from the
 main camp of Auschwitz) a minimum of over 700,000 murders (almost exclusively
 Jews).  International research presently estimates a million to 1.5 million
 dead in Auschwitz-Birkenau.  That may lead to some scientific debate. <<
 And so it should. Most of all, it should be 'established' where the
 'resurected'  2.5 mill. died, if not in Auschwitz, to come-up to 6 mill.
 again.

 >> However, the merit of Pressac's book is that it takes away from the
 Revisionists and Auschwitz-deniers the basis of all their objections.<<
 I don't see how, since it was, first, the Revisionists efforts to challange
 the numbers, hence, the now adjusted numbers and the ignomonius removal of
the
 emblazened 4 mill. bronzed 'victims' from their granite stones.  Pressac was
 scolded by Claude Lanzman (Shoah) for reducing the numbers. The French
 Investigation Bureau for War-crimes established 8 mill. victims in Auschwitz.
 And still, it's 'verboten' in Germany, the country accused of and paying for
 all those 'dastardly deeds', to investigate the 'numbersgame'.  Pressac's
 book(s), also, are nowhere to be found in any bookstore or reputable library.


 =Manfred


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #455681-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 457160
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  16:48:58

 >>That happens to be the day after Hitler had abolished democracy in Germany
 through the so called Empowerment Act (Ermaechtigungsgesetz), giving himself
 absolute power, raising the SA storm troopers to auxiliary police status,
 introducing comprehensive censorship of the media, allowing arbitary arrest
 and detention without charges, etc. etc. An international boycott against
 Germany then was at least as justified as the boycott against South Africa.<<

 Dear German citizen Joe:
 Those were German affairs and not the business of International goons.

 =Manfred


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456713-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 457156
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  16:48:33

 >>Are you implying that the invasion of the BeNeLux countries, Norway, and
 France was merely an accident?  Maybe the entire Wermacht was on war
maneuvers
 with live ammunition and merely made a wrong turn somewhere.
 /\vner<<

 France declared war on Germany, what do you expect? It was neccessary to
 secure the Atlantic beaches against any Allied invasions from England.

 Please, don't answer anymore, your knowledge is not sufficient enough for me
 to waste my time on.


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456584-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 457157
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  16:48:38

 >>Hitler was the last one who wanted war with the US.

        Then he shouldn't have declared war.  Declaring war on the United
 States appears to have been his personal idea. _World War Two through German
 Eyes_:

        What Hitler had hoped to gain by the insane declaration
        of war upon America is hard to see, but reports from SD
        sources following that declaration, spoke of the pessimism
        and despair evident in many ordinary Germans who were
  aware, even if their leaders were not, that with the
        entry of America the war was good as lost.

 >>Hitler was too smart to start a war with the most powerful country at that
 time in military and available resources.

        Hitler believed Americans were a worthless "mongrel race," and it was
 impossible that an "inferior" race could defeat the Germans: "Half-Judaized,
 half-Negrified . . . Americans have the brains of a hen." According to Speer:

        Hitler clung to the end to his preconceived opinion that
        the troops of the Western countries were poor fighting
        material.  Even the Allied successes in Africa and Italy
        could not shake his belief that these soldiers would
        run away from the first serious onslaught.  He was convinced
        that democracy feebled a nation.   As late as the summer
        of 1944 he held to his theory that all the ground that
        had been lost in the West would be quickly reconquered.
        His opinions on the Western statesmen had a similar bias.
        He considered Chruchill, as he often stated during the
        situation conferences, an incompetent, alcoholic demagogue.
        And he asserted in all seriousness that Roosevelt was not
        a victim of infantile paralysis but syphilitic paralysis
        and was therefore mentally unsound.  These opinions, too, were
        indications of his flight from reality in the last years of
        his life.

____________________

 Complete nonsense.  I don't know where you get such 'Hirngespinste'.


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456080-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 457159
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  16:48:54

 >>The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1945 edition, quotes Professor Jacob Marcus of
 the Hebrew College in Cincinnati as stating that there were 4 million Jews in
 Europe in 1941. When WW2 ended over 3,375,000 Jewish "holocaust" survivors
 filed applications with the German government for reparations.

 >>This bit of information I posted to another individual in this forum
 tonight. I'm often perplexed at how individuals who still believe in the
 holocaust myth conveniently overlook such facts. Why is it they want to cling
 to POST World War 2 demographics and ignore statistics and PRE WW2
 demographics? Doesn't common sense and logic tell one that such information
 cannot be ignored? Don't others see the political ramifications relating to
 POST WW2 demographics?<<



 Cliff:

 Most people, believing in the holocaust, are like the Christians of days gone
 by (and today as well), they'd rather die than excepting FACTS.  To them, the
 LORD ascended to heaven, no ifs and butts about it.  The Lord said it, and I
 believe it.   The emphasis is on 'believing' NOT on factual knowing.

 =Manfred


 Subject:  #457075- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 457584
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  17-Feb-96  19:26:09

 < The holocaust...MUST be investigated,...as the Revisionists have done,
 forcing the erroneous and willfully misrepresented number of 4 million jews
 gassed...in Auschwitz down to where it stands for the time being, 1.1 mill. >

 >>  1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau...not to mention several
 other "untermenschen" of various Slavic/East European nationalities...still
 quite a few.
 >>  Is the crime any less--or more, in your point of view--if only a third or
 a quarter of those killed in the camps were Jewish? <<

 IF there was such a crime, no!   However, looking at the fantastic holocaust
 claims, lies, incongruities, distortions and bizarre eyewitness-accounts, one
 cannot help but wonder; Why the inflated numbers for so many years?  Why did
 revisionists have to investigate and find all the wrongs and flaws in the
 holocaust-appendix to the Jewish religion?

 The dispute is about the so-called 'industrial extermination'  of the Jewish
 race.  Did that take place or not?  Are there BIG lies in the holocaust, yes
 or no? From the days of the revenge-crazed  trials at Nuremberg (IMT),
wrought
 with thirst for German blood, to today's findings, we have seen profound
 changes that boggle the mind.  Many people, after hearing that the number of
 Jewish victims has been lowered, are screaming to high heaven and are against
 it.  WHY?  Instead of happiness they display hostilities. Would they rather
 have these 'victims' dead instead of alive?
 Does it disturb their religious piety?   Last week, the world renown
 'Nazi-hunter, par excellence,  Simon Wiesenthal, was accused on German TV
 "Panorama" as a liar, fraud, forger and falsifier.  Ooops, what happened
here?
 The Icon of mankind's pursued of justice a liar?  There goes one of the
 cornerstones of the holocaust.  What else is fraudulent? Who pays for the
 VICTIMS of Nazi-hunters and murderers?


 =Manfred








 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #457076-Jewish Bolshevism - Msg Number: 457585
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  17-Feb-96  19:26:13

 < "By the time Germany regained her power, she had become -not without
reason-
 almost wholly disillusioned about the role of morality in international
 politics. There was not even as late as 1936 any reasonable prospect of
 obtaining major modifications of the Versailles Treaty by peaceful
negotiation
 unsupported by the ultimatum or the fait accompli. Even though she continued
 to base her claims on grounds of justice, Germany expressed them more and
more
 clearly in terms of naked force; and this reacted on the opinion of the
status
 quo countries, which became more and more inclined to forget earlier
 admissions of the injustices of the Versailles Treaty and to consider the
 issue as exclusively one of power."   (From: Carr, THE TWENTY YEARS CRISIS
 1919 - 1939.)<

 >> Interesting how subtle changes in text can distort the meaning. The
section
 actually reads:

 "By the time Germany regained her power, she had adopted a completely cynical
 attitude about the role of morality in international politics. Even though
she
 continued to base her claims on grounds of justice, she expressed them more
 and more clearly in terms of naked force; and this reacted on the opinion of
 the status quo countries, which became more and more inclined to forget
 earlier admissions of the injustices of the Versailles Treaty and to consider
 the issue as exclusively one of power." (Footnote in Carr at this point:
"This
 reaction was, of course, intensified by Nazi Germany's domestic policy.")

 E.H. Carr, The Twenty Years Crisis 1919-1939, p221.

 George:

 Thank you for the 'correction'(?)  My passage comes from DIE
 ERZBISCHOFSCHRIFT, Die Antwort eines Deutschen, by Author and Poet  Hans
 Grimm, 1951, Deutscher Verlag -El Buen Libro- Buenos Aires,  p. 209.
 I'll  have to stand by my version for the time being. Correct or not, the
 criminal behavior of the Allies justified the German attitude.

 =Manfred


Subject:  #457892-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 461040
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:17

>>When a group of people, none of whom were active here before, show up at the
same time, all interested in the same topic, which never was of much interest
to the regular forum members . . . yes, we can well believe that an
organization is behind it.<<

You're not getting around much, ahh? You see a conspiracy behind every bush
and forum, ahh?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #457889- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 461044
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:34

>>  Let's look at Soviet dead from World War Two. Some estimates say there
were 18 million dead, some 20 million , some 21 million, others 25 million,
others 27 or 28 million.

>>  By your logic, since there is disagreement on the numbers--how can we even
be sure that there were ANY Soviet dead in World War Two? Sure, we have
memoirs from veterans on both sides about the fighting on the Eastern Front,
but then again we have testimony from concentration camp inmates, from Hiwis
or other collaborators--from German guards even--about the concentration
camps; yet you claim that there was no Holocaust, no program of extermination
of Jews, Gypsys, Slavs, homosexuals, or other "untermenschen." <<

If you collided with a car and killed the person in it, you would be
responsible for the death of that person, because 'eyewitnesses' said so and
all your witnesses are called unbelievable neo-Nazis.  If the relatives of
that person claim you killed 6 mill. you would scream FRAUD, immediately,
right?   First, 6 mill. would never fit in the vehicle in question.  Second,
nobody has that many relatives.  Third, the impact could never have caused the
death of that many people and so on.  While you may be willing to pay for that
ONE person, you resist to be oppressed and exploided for the rest of the
'victims'.  Particularly, if NO ONE ELSE ever paid a penny for your people, or
any other people,  killed in the same manner.  You will then asked: Why only
me?  I hope you're able to understand that!


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458199- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 461037
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:08

>>See above. Faced with the overwhelming evidence that his  assertion about
the reduced victim count at Auschwitz is
nothing more or less than specious nonsense, Mr. Koch elects  to ignore that
evidence completely.<<

To whom THIS may concern.

Sorry, I have not seen any 'overwhelming' evidence yet to ignore.
The 4 mill.  numbers at Auschwitz were set in granite in 19 languages.  They
are gone today!!!  What happened here if  >> the reduced victim count at
Auschwitz is nothing more or less than specious nonsense<< ?   Who is telling
lies?  The Pope blessed those granite stones in 1979, which are blank today.
Why? And please, since I'm the disbeliever, provide ME with the evidence that
the Revisionist were not the reason for the reduced numbers of victims in
Auschwitz. Who lowered the numbers and why?  AND, what happened to the
'resurected' victims, excepting the fact they were NOT killed there, but
holding, still,  the 6 mill. figure over the Germans heads?

As far as the "Panorama" transcript is concerned, get it from Lea Rosh,
director at NDR Germany,  a 'Glaubensschwester'.  You should have NO problems.
I stand by my concept.  And on Auschwitz; here is my 'overwhelming' evidence,
which sounds a lot more convincing, after delving into other channels, for
cross-checking dealing with that problem, than anything coming from the
Auschwitz-believers.

=Auschwitz  Myths  and  Facts=
by Mark Weber
Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas chambers
during the Second World War.  Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most
terrible Nazi extermination center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled
with the facts.

=Scholars challenge Holocaust story =
Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have been
challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist" scholars
do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to the camp,
or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other diseases. But the
compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz was not an extermination
center and that the story of mass killings in "gas chambers" is a myth.

=The Auschwitz camps=
The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central
Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and mid-1944.
The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was
supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III, was
a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In addition
there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war economy.

=Four Million Victims?=
At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was invented
by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years.   It often appeared
in major American newspapers and magazines, for example.   (note 1)
Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the
extermination story, believes this figure.   Israeli Holocaust historian
Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the familiar
four million figure is a deliberate myth.   In July 1990 the Auschwitz State
Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Center, suddenly
announced that altogether perhaps one million people (both Jews and non-Jews)
died there.   Neither institution would say how many of these people were
killed, nor were any estimates given of the numbers of those supposedly
gassed.   (note 2)
One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz.   While even these lower
figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
drastically over the years.

=Bizarre Tales=
At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically
electrocuted at Auschwitz.   American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness
report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the
methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on
which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then
moved on into furnaces.   They were burned almost instantly, producing
fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields."  (note 3)
And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged
that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously "vaporize"
20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of
them."   (note 4) No reputable historian now accepts either of these fanciful
tales.

=The Hoess "Confession"=
A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant
Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution at
the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)   Although it is still widely cited as
solid proof for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is actually a false
statement that was obtained by torture.
Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard
Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former
commandant to obtain his "confession." Hoess himself privately explained his
ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and
half million Jews.   I could just as well have said that it was five million
Jews.   There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained,
whether it is true or not." (note 6)
Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now
acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Hoess "affidavit"
are simply not true.   For one thing, no serious scholar now claims that
anything like two and a half or three million people perished in Auschwitz.
The Hoess "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being
exterminated by gas in the summer of
1941 at three other camps: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek.   The "Wolzek" camp
mentioned by Hoess is a total invention.   No such camp existed, and the name
is no longer mentioned in Holocaust literature.   Moreover, the story these
days by those who believe in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did
not begin at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

=No Documentary Evidence=
Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
confiscated after the war by the Allies.   Not a single one refers to a policy
or program of extermination.   In fact, the extermination story cannot be
reconciled with the documentary evidence.

=Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work=
For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to
work were immediately killed.   Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak
were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death
were temporarily kept alive.
But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish
inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed.   For
example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief
of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main
Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581
were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates - some 21,500,
or about 86 percent - were unable to work.  (note 7)
This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security
measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp
system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler.   Pohl reported that there was a total
of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were
hospitalized or disabled.   In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly
the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of
whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." (note 8)
These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz
extermination story.   The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was
established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including
the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting
assignment to other camps.  The reason for the unusually high death rate
there.   (note 9)
Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish, acknowledges
in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at
Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were executed.
(note 10)

=Anne Frank=
The most famous survivor of Auschwitz was Anne Frank's father who was sent to
the camp hospital to recover.   He was one of thousands of sick and feeble
Jews who were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945,
shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets.   He died in Switzerland in
1980. If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they
would not have survived
Auschwitz.   Their fate, tragic though it was, cannot be reconciled with the
extermination story.

=Allied Propaganda=

. . . continued at =The Holocaust - Not II




































 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458329-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 461042
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:26

>>Wait a minute Manfred,
  You were saying before that you could find no mention of Babi Yar except in
"some poem." But Yevtushenko's poem wasn't written until 1961, after Anatoli
Kuznetsov told him of hearing the shootings and seeing the ravine while
growing up during the German occupation.
  Yet here you seem to have just found a source refering specifically to Babi
Yar--eighteen years before said poem was written!
  Perhaps you simply need to do more research...I'm sure that you'll find
several other references. Look up Dina Mironovna Pronicheva, or some of the
other witnesses.<<


George:

I think, you're getting a little too excited here.  You sent your answers to
me instead of the person it came from, calm-down. 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458384-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 461043
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:30

  <>

>>  You need to check your sources more carefully. The specific statement of
Mr. Lawrence, the correspondent, is "it is impossible for this correspondent
to judge the truth _or_falsity_ of the story told to us."<<

It would be soooooo easy to investigate the site.  Archeologist could have a
field day.  Furthermore, the numbers of 'victims', again, range from 35,000 to
120.000.  In other words, another poetic fantasy from the overstimmulated
minds of German-haters. 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458360-Holocaust: NOT! - Msg Number: 461041
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  DENNIS  X. McCORMAC 102567,3466
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:21

>>To Manfred:  Thank you for your kind and condescending advice to read your
propaganda carefully for full understanding.  You'll be pleased to know that
after much effort on my part, I was able to actually comprehend some of the
bigger words.  I do appreciate your patience - it must be so trying to deal
with those who simply cannot seem to grasp what is so clear to you. And I do
understand you - that is why I invited you to share your 'facts', already
knowing what they were, having met the others before you from the 'die
Bruderschaft', who need only  be asked to 'enlighten' the rest of us, and they
will promptly dig a hole with their own words.  As you did.  Danke!

>>There is no need for me to reply further to your message.  By the time I
read this on Monday, many well-informed and competent gentlemen had already
effectively countered 'die Tatsachen'.  I will not waste any more of your
time, and you, sir, will not waste any more of mine. Auf Wiedersehen, Herr
Koch.<<


You completely forgot to confront me with some facts.  Why?  


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460699-War Crimes, Never! - Msg Number: 461016
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:18:34

>>Ich war Krank, besser nur!

        I think it's pathetic when people show off their rags and tags of
German. Stick to English.  If you want to speak German, go to the SPIEGEL
forum or one of the others where German is spoken.

>>Horst, it is practically impossible to get people to understand that inmates
were actually a commodity to the SS. Certainly those SS personnel who
mistreated inmates were summarily prosecuted.

        There is such a case in _The Good Old Days_ (Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen
and Volker Riess, editors): SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taeubner (May 24, 1943).
According to the verdict:

        During the period of 22 October to 12 November 1942 the accused was in
        a small town, Alexandri[y]a, together with his platoon.  There he
learned
        that although most Jews had been 'resettled,' there were still some
Jews
        in the area who had up to then evaded 'resettlement.'  The rumour also
        reached his ears that the Jews intended to poison the streams.  He
decided
        therefore to clear Alexandriya of Jews, particularly since he and his
        platoon were unable to leave the village because of the weather and
road
        conditions and, as a result, did not have enough work.  He gave orders
        for all Jews to be delivered to him at his unit.  Members of the
        Reicharbeitsdienst declared themselves prepared to dig the grave for
        the execution.  Four hundred and fifty-nine Jews were shot in
Alexandriya.

        Whereas, however, the executions in Novograd Volynsky and Sholokhovo
        proceeded in a more or less orderly fashion, in Alexandriya they
degenerated
        into vicious excesses.  The Jews whose job it was to saw wood in the
        courtyard were beaten on the pretext that they were not working
properly.
        They were also beaten with spades, and act in which SS-Sturmmann
        Ackerman particularly distinguished himself. . . . The accused himself
        joined in the beating and also hit Jewesses in the face with a whip.
        Whenever there was a break, he played the song 'You are Crazy, My
Child'
        on an accordian. . . .

        The accused took a number of photographs of the executions and allowed
        SS-Sturmmann Fritsch to take further photographs, although he knew
that
        the photographing of such incidents was not permitted.  These were for
        the most part pictures which showed the most deplorable excesses, many
are
        shameless and utterly revolting. . . .

The verdict concluded:

        The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the
Jews
        as such.  The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that
were
        killed is any great loss.  Although the accused should have recognized
that
        the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which have
been
        set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for
considering
        himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of
Jewry
        himself.  Real hatred of the Jews was the driving motivation for the
        accused.  In the process he let himself be drawn into committing cruel
        actions in Alexandriya which are unworthy of a German man and an
        SS officer.  These excesses cannot be justified, either as the accused
would
        like to, as retaliation for the pain the Jews have caused the German
people.
        It is not the German way to apply Bolshevik methods during the
necessary
        extermination of the worst enemy of our people.  In so doing the
conduct
        of the accused gives rise to considerable concern.  The accused
allowed
        his men to act with such vicious brutality that they conducted
themselves
        under his command like a savage horde.  The accused jeopardized the
        discipline of the men.  It is hard to conceive of anything worse than
this.
        Although the accused may have otherwise have taken care of his men, by
        his conduct he however neglected his supevisory duty which, in the
view
        of the SS, also means not allowing his men to become psychologically
        depraved.  The accused is therefore to be punished under section 147
of
        the MStGB [Militaerstrafgesetzbuch]. . . .

        By taking photographs of the incidents or having photographs taken, by
        having these developed in photographic shops and showing them to his
        wife and friends, the accused is guilty of disobedience.  Such
pictures
        could pose the gravest risks to the security of the Reich if they fell
into
        the wrong hands.  It would be extremely easy for them to be leaked
        out of southern Germany to Switzerland and used for enemy propaganda.
        The accused was also aware of this considerable danger. . . .

Taeubner had also shot the commander of the Nazi-sponsored Ukrainian militia,
on a rumor that he was collaborating with the Communists, and urged his wife
to seek an abortion, contrary to the Nazi laws.   He was sentenced to ten
years imprisonment and expelled from the SS.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 461036
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:58:59

=Allied Propaganda=
The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay statements
of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence of
extermination.   Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about
gassings at Auschwitz were widespread. Allied planes dropped large numbers of
leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas
which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp.   The Auschwitz
gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda
effort,
was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations.   (note 11)

=Survivor Testimony=
Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at
Auschwitz.   An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp
experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988.   She was interned in
Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced
laborer.   On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the
others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz. Upon arrival, Maria and the
other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without
windows to take a shower.   The terrified women were sure that they were about
to die.   But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads.
Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed.   She witnessed the death
of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few
committed suicide.   But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings,
gassings, or of any extermination program.   (note 12)
A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary
in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily.
She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas
chambers" during the time she was interned there.   She heard the gassing
stories only later.   (note 13)

=Inmates Released=
Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and returned
to their home countries.   If Auschwitz had actually been a top secret
extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released inmates
who "knew" what was happening in the camp. (note 14)

=Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced=
In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially typhus,
the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm
counter-measures. The head of the SS camp administration office sent a
directive dated Dec. 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps.
It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and
ordered that "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to
significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps."  Furthermore, it
ordered:  The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the
nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants.  The camp doctors are to
see to it that the working conditions at the various labor
places are improved as much as possible.
Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich Himmler]
has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."   (note 15)

=German Camp Regulations=
Official German camp regulations make clear that Auschwitz was not an
extermination center.   They ordered:  The new arrivals in the camp have to be
examined carefully.   Those suspected should immediately be put into the camp
hospital and kept there for observation.
Prisoners asking for medical treatment should be brought before the camp
doctor that same day to be examined.
The camp doctor should regularly check how the food is prepared and its
quality.   Any shortcomings should immediately be brought to the attention of
the camp commandant.   Special care should be given to the treatment of
accidents, so as to avoid impairment of the prisoners'
ability to earn their living.   Prisoners who are to be set free or
transferred from the camp should be brought before the camp physician for
medical examination.   (note 16)

=Telltale Aerial Photos=
Detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on
several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged extermination
period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979.   They show no trace of the
piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of Jews awaiting death
which have been alleged and which would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz
had indeed been an extermination center.   (note 17)

=Absurd Cremation Claims=
Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not
possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of 1944
at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged. For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a
large crematory in Calgary, Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the
Auschwitz cremation story is technically impossible.   The allegation that
10,000 or even 20,000 corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer
of 1944 in crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the
realm of reality," he declared under oath.   (note 18)

=Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story=

. . . continued at The Holocaust - Not III
















------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461038
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Jim Ryan, Cincinnati 73002,156
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:13

>> I see.  So your figures are facts, while the published figures accepted
even by the present-day German government are "the Revisionist-game". This is
laughable.<<

My figures are better facts than yours, because you seem to have none.

>>You still haven't asnwered the central question:  Does the exact number
matter more to you than the mere *fact* of the Holocaust?  Genocide is
genocide.  The Nazis murdered innocent men, women and children.  Do you deny
that?<<

The exact numbers matter insofar as they are an indication of the severity of
the crime.  Fictitious numbers that yo-yo all over the place indicate
something sinister in the overall purpose of it.

>> You still haven't asnwered the central question:  Does the exact number
matter more to you than the mere *fact* of the Holocaust?  Genocide is
genocide.  The Nazis murdered innocent men, women and children.  Do you deny
that?<<

The central question is; that the Allies have murdered more innocent men,
women, children and other human beings than any other regime.  Never were they
EVER held accountable for THEIR  crimes against humanity, unless, only Jewish
'victims' are considered 'humanity'.



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 461045
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:41

=Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story=
America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter,
carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded that
the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible.
In February 1988 he carried out a detailed on-site examination of the "gas
chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either
still standing or only partially in ruins.   In sworn testimony to a Toronto
court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every
aspect of his investigation.  He concluded by emphatically declaring that the
alleged gassing facilities could not possibly have been used to kill people.
Among other things, he pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not
properly sealed or vented to kill human beings without also killing German
camp personnel.  (note 19)
Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the Dupont
Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the Auschwitz
gassing story is technically impossible.   Based on a careful on-site
examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau
and Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the
conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B
[hydrocyanic acid gas] in this manner.   I consider it absolutely impossible."
(note 20)

=Conclusion=
The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda.   Now,
more than 40 years after the end of the Second World War, it's time to take
another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of history.
The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story.   If hundreds of
thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as alleged, one of the
great myths of our time collapses.
Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents genuine
reconciliation and lasting peace.   Revisionism promotes historical awareness
and international understanding.

Notes
1. Nuremberg document 008-USSR. IMT blue series, Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.; NC&A
red series, vol. 1, p.
35; C.L. Sulzberger, "Oswiecim Killings Placed at 4,000,000," New York Times,
May 8, 1945, and, New
York Times, Jan. 31, 1986, p. A4.
2. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept. 22,
1989; "Auschwitz Deaths
Reduced to a Million,," Daily Telegraph (London), July 17, 1990; "Poland
Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll
Estimate to 1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.
3. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press dispatch
from Moscow).
4. IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).
5. Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819). IMT blue series, Vol. 33, pp.
275-279.
6. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
Journal of Historical
Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
7. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document No.
128, in: H. Eschwege,
ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264.
8. Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385.
9. Arthur Butz, Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif.), p. 124.
10. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1989),
p. 365.
11. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT green series, Vol. 8, p. 606.
12. Testimony in Toronto District Court, March 28, 1988. Toronto Star,
March 29, 1988, p. A2.
13. Sylvia Rothchild, ed., Voices from the Holocaust (New York: 1981), pp.
188-191.
14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.
15. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.
16. "Lagerordnung fur die Konzentrationslager." Made public in 1962 by former
Auschwitz-Birkenau
inmate Prof. Jan Olbrycht. English translation published in Anthology, Inhuman
Medicine, Vol. 1, Part 1,
Warsaw: International Auschwitz Committee, 1970, pp. 149-151.
17. Dino A. Brugioni and Robert C. Poirier, The Holocaust Revisited,
Washington, DC: Central
Intelligence Agency, 1979.
18. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6.
19. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas
Chambers at
Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Toronto: 1988. Available for $17.00,
postpaid, from the IHR.
20. The Globe and Mail (Toronto), Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3.

MARK WEBER is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University, and
Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he testified as
an expert witness on the "final solution" and the Holocaust issue in a Toronto
District Court case. His many articles, reviews and essays on modern European
history have appeared in various scholarly journals and other periodicals.

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #457892-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 461040
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:17

>>When a group of people, none of whom were active here before, show up at the
same time, all interested in the same topic, which never was of much interest
to the regular forum members . . . yes, we can well believe that an
organization is behind it.<<

You're not getting around much, ahh? You see a conspiracy behind every bush
and forum, ahh?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #457889- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 461044
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:34

>>  Let's look at Soviet dead from World War Two. Some estimates say there
were 18 million dead, some 20 million , some 21 million, others 25 million,
others 27 or 28 million.

>>  By your logic, since there is disagreement on the numbers--how can we even
be sure that there were ANY Soviet dead in World War Two? Sure, we have
memoirs from veterans on both sides about the fighting on the Eastern Front,
but then again we have testimony from concentration camp inmates, from Hiwis
or other collaborators--from German guards even--about the concentration
camps; yet you claim that there was no Holocaust, no program of extermination
of Jews, Gypsys, Slavs, homosexuals, or other "untermenschen." <<

If you collided with a car and killed the person in it, you would be
responsible for the death of that person, because 'eyewitnesses' said so and
all your witnesses are called unbelievable neo-Nazis.  If the relatives of
that person claim you killed 6 mill. you would scream FRAUD, immediately,
right?   First, 6 mill. would never fit in the vehicle in question.  Second,
nobody has that many relatives.  Third, the impact could never have caused the
death of that many people and so on.  While you may be willing to pay for that
ONE person, you resist to be oppressed and exploided for the rest of the
'victims'.  Particularly, if NO ONE ELSE ever paid a penny for your people, or
any other people,  killed in the same manner.  You will then asked: Why only
me?  I hope you're able to understand that!


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458199- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 461037
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:08

>>See above. Faced with the overwhelming evidence that his  assertion about
the reduced victim count at Auschwitz is
nothing more or less than specious nonsense, Mr. Koch elects  to ignore that
evidence completely.<<

To whom THIS may concern.

Sorry, I have not seen any 'overwhelming' evidence yet to ignore.
The 4 mill.  numbers at Auschwitz were set in granite in 19 languages.  They
are gone today!!!  What happened here if  >> the reduced victim count at
Auschwitz is nothing more or less than specious nonsense<< ?   Who is telling
lies?  The Pope blessed those granite stones in 1979, which are blank today.
Why? And please, since I'm the disbeliever, provide ME with the evidence that
the Revisionist were not the reason for the reduced numbers of victims in
Auschwitz. Who lowered the numbers and why?  AND, what happened to the
'resurected' victims, excepting the fact they were NOT killed there, but
holding, still,  the 6 mill. figure over the Germans heads?

As far as the "Panorama" transcript is concerned, get it from Lea Rosh,
director at NDR Germany,  a 'Glaubensschwester'.  You should have NO problems.
I stand by my concept.  And on Auschwitz; here is my 'overwhelming' evidence,
which sounds a lot more convincing, after delving into other channels, for
cross-checking dealing with that problem, than anything coming from the
Auschwitz-believers.

=Auschwitz  Myths  and  Facts=
by Mark Weber
Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp where
great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas chambers
during the Second World War.  Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most
terrible Nazi extermination center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled
with the facts.

=Scholars challenge Holocaust story =
Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have been
challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist" scholars
do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to the camp,
or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other diseases. But the
compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz was not an extermination
center and that the story of mass killings in "gas chambers" is a myth.

=The Auschwitz camps=
The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central
Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and mid-1944.
The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was
supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III, was
a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In addition
there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war economy.

=Four Million Victims?=
At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was invented
by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years.   It often appeared
in major American newspapers and magazines, for example.   (note 1)
Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the
extermination story, believes this figure.   Israeli Holocaust historian
Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the familiar
four million figure is a deliberate myth.   In July 1990 the Auschwitz State
Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Center, suddenly
announced that altogether perhaps one million people (both Jews and non-Jews)
died there.   Neither institution would say how many of these people were
killed, nor were any estimates given of the numbers of those supposedly
gassed.   (note 2)
One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz.   While even these lower
figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
drastically over the years.

=Bizarre Tales=
At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically
electrocuted at Auschwitz.   American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness
report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the
methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on
which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then
moved on into furnaces.   They were burned almost instantly, producing
fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields."  (note 3)
And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged
that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously "vaporize"
20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of
them."   (note 4) No reputable historian now accepts either of these fanciful
tales.

=The Hoess "Confession"=
A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant
Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution at
the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)   Although it is still widely cited as
solid proof for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is actually a false
statement that was obtained by torture.
Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard
Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former
commandant to obtain his "confession." Hoess himself privately explained his
ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and
half million Jews.   I could just as well have said that it was five million
Jews.   There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained,
whether it is true or not." (note 6)
Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now
acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Hoess "affidavit"
are simply not true.   For one thing, no serious scholar now claims that
anything like two and a half or three million people perished in Auschwitz.
The Hoess "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being
exterminated by gas in the summer of
1941 at three other camps: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek.   The "Wolzek" camp
mentioned by Hoess is a total invention.   No such camp existed, and the name
is no longer mentioned in Holocaust literature.   Moreover, the story these
days by those who believe in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did
not begin at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

=No Documentary Evidence=
Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
confiscated after the war by the Allies.   Not a single one refers to a policy
or program of extermination.   In fact, the extermination story cannot be
reconciled with the documentary evidence.

=Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work=
For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to
work were immediately killed.   Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak
were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death
were temporarily kept alive.
But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish
inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed.   For
example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief
of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main
Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581
were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates - some 21,500,
or about 86 percent - were unable to work.  (note 7)
This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security
measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp
system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler.   Pohl reported that there was a total
of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were
hospitalized or disabled.   In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly
the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of
whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." (note 8)
These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz
extermination story.   The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was
established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including
the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting
assignment to other camps.  The reason for the unusually high death rate
there.   (note 9)
Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish, acknowledges
in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at
Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were executed.
(note 10)

=Anne Frank=
The most famous survivor of Auschwitz was Anne Frank's father who was sent to
the camp hospital to recover.   He was one of thousands of sick and feeble
Jews who were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945,
shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets.   He died in Switzerland in
1980. If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they
would not have survived
Auschwitz.   Their fate, tragic though it was, cannot be reconciled with the
extermination story.

=Allied Propaganda=

. . . continued at =The Holocaust - Not II




































 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458329-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 461042
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:26

>>Wait a minute Manfred,
  You were saying before that you could find no mention of Babi Yar except in
"some poem." But Yevtushenko's poem wasn't written until 1961, after Anatoli
Kuznetsov told him of hearing the shootings and seeing the ravine while
growing up during the German occupation.
  Yet here you seem to have just found a source refering specifically to Babi
Yar--eighteen years before said poem was written!
  Perhaps you simply need to do more research...I'm sure that you'll find
several other references. Look up Dina Mironovna Pronicheva, or some of the
other witnesses.<<


George:

I think, you're getting a little too excited here.  You sent your answers to
me instead of the person it came from, calm-down. 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458384-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 461043
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:30

  <>

>>  You need to check your sources more carefully. The specific statement of
Mr. Lawrence, the correspondent, is "it is impossible for this correspondent
to judge the truth _or_falsity_ of the story told to us."<<

It would be soooooo easy to investigate the site.  Archeologist could have a
field day.  Furthermore, the numbers of 'victims', again, range from 35,000 to
120.000.  In other words, another poetic fantasy from the overstimmulated
minds of German-haters. 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #458360-Holocaust: NOT! - Msg Number: 461041
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  DENNIS  X. McCORMAC 102567,3466
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:21

>>To Manfred:  Thank you for your kind and condescending advice to read your
propaganda carefully for full understanding.  You'll be pleased to know that
after much effort on my part, I was able to actually comprehend some of the
bigger words.  I do appreciate your patience - it must be so trying to deal
with those who simply cannot seem to grasp what is so clear to you. And I do
understand you - that is why I invited you to share your 'facts', already
knowing what they were, having met the others before you from the 'die
Bruderschaft', who need only  be asked to 'enlighten' the rest of us, and they
will promptly dig a hole with their own words.  As you did.  Danke!

>>There is no need for me to reply further to your message.  By the time I
read this on Monday, many well-informed and competent gentlemen had already
effectively countered 'die Tatsachen'.  I will not waste any more of your
time, and you, sir, will not waste any more of mine. Auf Wiedersehen, Herr
Koch.<<


You completely forgot to confront me with some facts.  Why?  


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460699-War Crimes, Never! - Msg Number: 461016
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:18:34

>>Ich war Krank, besser nur!

        I think it's pathetic when people show off their rags and tags of
German. Stick to English.  If you want to speak German, go to the SPIEGEL
forum or one of the others where German is spoken.

>>Horst, it is practically impossible to get people to understand that inmates
were actually a commodity to the SS. Certainly those SS personnel who
mistreated inmates were summarily prosecuted.

        There is such a case in _The Good Old Days_ (Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen
and Volker Riess, editors): SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taeubner (May 24, 1943).
According to the verdict:

        During the period of 22 October to 12 November 1942 the accused was in
        a small town, Alexandri[y]a, together with his platoon.  There he
learned
        that although most Jews had been 'resettled,' there were still some
Jews
        in the area who had up to then evaded 'resettlement.'  The rumour also
        reached his ears that the Jews intended to poison the streams.  He
decided
        therefore to clear Alexandriya of Jews, particularly since he and his
        platoon were unable to leave the village because of the weather and
road
        conditions and, as a result, did not have enough work.  He gave orders
        for all Jews to be delivered to him at his unit.  Members of the
        Reicharbeitsdienst declared themselves prepared to dig the grave for
        the execution.  Four hundred and fifty-nine Jews were shot in
Alexandriya.

        Whereas, however, the executions in Novograd Volynsky and Sholokhovo
        proceeded in a more or less orderly fashion, in Alexandriya they
degenerated
        into vicious excesses.  The Jews whose job it was to saw wood in the
        courtyard were beaten on the pretext that they were not working
properly.
        They were also beaten with spades, and act in which SS-Sturmmann
        Ackerman particularly distinguished himself. . . . The accused himself
        joined in the beating and also hit Jewesses in the face with a whip.
        Whenever there was a break, he played the song 'You are Crazy, My
Child'
        on an accordian. . . .

        The accused took a number of photographs of the executions and allowed
        SS-Sturmmann Fritsch to take further photographs, although he knew
that
        the photographing of such incidents was not permitted.  These were for
        the most part pictures which showed the most deplorable excesses, many
are
        shameless and utterly revolting. . . .

The verdict concluded:

        The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the
Jews
        as such.  The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that
were
        killed is any great loss.  Although the accused should have recognized
that
        the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which have
been
        set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for
considering
        himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of
Jewry
        himself.  Real hatred of the Jews was the driving motivation for the
        accused.  In the process he let himself be drawn into committing cruel
        actions in Alexandriya which are unworthy of a German man and an
        SS officer.  These excesses cannot be justified, either as the accused
would
        like to, as retaliation for the pain the Jews have caused the German
people.
        It is not the German way to apply Bolshevik methods during the
necessary
        extermination of the worst enemy of our people.  In so doing the
conduct
        of the accused gives rise to considerable concern.  The accused
allowed
        his men to act with such vicious brutality that they conducted
themselves
        under his command like a savage horde.  The accused jeopardized the
        discipline of the men.  It is hard to conceive of anything worse than
this.
        Although the accused may have otherwise have taken care of his men, by
        his conduct he however neglected his supevisory duty which, in the
view
        of the SS, also means not allowing his men to become psychologically
        depraved.  The accused is therefore to be punished under section 147
of
        the MStGB [Militaerstrafgesetzbuch]. . . .

        By taking photographs of the incidents or having photographs taken, by
        having these developed in photographic shops and showing them to his
        wife and friends, the accused is guilty of disobedience.  Such
pictures
        could pose the gravest risks to the security of the Reich if they fell
into
        the wrong hands.  It would be extremely easy for them to be leaked
        out of southern Germany to Switzerland and used for enemy propaganda.
        The accused was also aware of this considerable danger. . . .

Taeubner had also shot the commander of the Nazi-sponsored Ukrainian militia,
on a rumor that he was collaborating with the Communists, and urged his wife
to seek an abortion, contrary to the Nazi laws.   He was sentenced to ten
years imprisonment and expelled from the SS.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 461036
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:58:59

=Allied Propaganda=
The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay statements
of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence of
extermination.   Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about
gassings at Auschwitz were widespread. Allied planes dropped large numbers of
leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas
which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp.   The Auschwitz
gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda
effort,
was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations.   (note 11)

=Survivor Testimony=
Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at
Auschwitz.   An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp
experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988.   She was interned in
Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced
laborer.   On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the
others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz. Upon arrival, Maria and the
other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without
windows to take a shower.   The terrified women were sure that they were about
to die.   But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads.
Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed.   She witnessed the death
of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few
committed suicide.   But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings,
gassings, or of any extermination program.   (note 12)
A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary
in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily.
She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas
chambers" during the time she was interned there.   She heard the gassing
stories only later.   (note 13)

=Inmates Released=
Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and returned
to their home countries.   If Auschwitz had actually been a top secret
extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released inmates
who "knew" what was happening in the camp. (note 14)

=Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced=
In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially typhus,
the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm
counter-measures. The head of the SS camp administration office sent a
directive dated Dec. 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps.
It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and
ordered that "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to
significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps."  Furthermore, it
ordered:  The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the
nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants.  The camp doctors are to
see to it that the working conditions at the various labor
places are improved as much as possible.
Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich Himmler]
has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."   (note 15)

=German Camp Regulations=
Official German camp regulations make clear that Auschwitz was not an
extermination center.   They ordered:  The new arrivals in the camp have to be
examined carefully.   Those suspected should immediately be put into the camp
hospital and kept there for observation.
Prisoners asking for medical treatment should be brought before the camp
doctor that same day to be examined.
The camp doctor should regularly check how the food is prepared and its
quality.   Any shortcomings should immediately be brought to the attention of
the camp commandant.   Special care should be given to the treatment of
accidents, so as to avoid impairment of the prisoners'
ability to earn their living.   Prisoners who are to be set free or
transferred from the camp should be brought before the camp physician for
medical examination.   (note 16)

=Telltale Aerial Photos=
Detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on
several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged extermination
period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979.   They show no trace of the
piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of Jews awaiting death
which have been alleged and which would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz
had indeed been an extermination center.   (note 17)

=Absurd Cremation Claims=
Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not
possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of 1944
at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged. For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a
large crematory in Calgary, Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the
Auschwitz cremation story is technically impossible.   The allegation that
10,000 or even 20,000 corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer
of 1944 in crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the
realm of reality," he declared under oath.   (note 18)

=Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story=

. . . continued at The Holocaust - Not III
















------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461038
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Jim Ryan, Cincinnati 73002,156
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:13

>> I see.  So your figures are facts, while the published figures accepted
even by the present-day German government are "the Revisionist-game". This is
laughable.<<

My figures are better facts than yours, because you seem to have none.

>>You still haven't asnwered the central question:  Does the exact number
matter more to you than the mere *fact* of the Holocaust?  Genocide is
genocide.  The Nazis murdered innocent men, women and children.  Do you deny
that?<<

The exact numbers matter insofar as they are an indication of the severity of
the crime.  Fictitious numbers that yo-yo all over the place indicate
something sinister in the overall purpose of it.

>> You still haven't asnwered the central question:  Does the exact number
matter more to you than the mere *fact* of the Holocaust?  Genocide is
genocide.  The Nazis murdered innocent men, women and children.  Do you deny
that?<<

The central question is; that the Allies have murdered more innocent men,
women, children and other human beings than any other regime.  Never were they
EVER held accountable for THEIR  crimes against humanity, unless, only Jewish
'victims' are considered 'humanity'.



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 461045
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  25-Feb-96  17:59:41

=Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story=
America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter,
carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded that
the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible.
In February 1988 he carried out a detailed on-site examination of the "gas
chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either
still standing or only partially in ruins.   In sworn testimony to a Toronto
court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every
aspect of his investigation.  He concluded by emphatically declaring that the
alleged gassing facilities could not possibly have been used to kill people.
Among other things, he pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not
properly sealed or vented to kill human beings without also killing German
camp personnel.  (note 19)
Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the Dupont
Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the Auschwitz
gassing story is technically impossible.   Based on a careful on-site
examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau
and Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the
conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B
[hydrocyanic acid gas] in this manner.   I consider it absolutely impossible."
(note 20)

=Conclusion=
The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda.   Now,
more than 40 years after the end of the Second World War, it's time to take
another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of history.
The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story.   If hundreds of
thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as alleged, one of the
great myths of our time collapses.
Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents genuine
reconciliation and lasting peace.   Revisionism promotes historical awareness
and international understanding.

Notes
1. Nuremberg document 008-USSR. IMT blue series, Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.; NC&A
red series, vol. 1, p.
35; C.L. Sulzberger, "Oswiecim Killings Placed at 4,000,000," New York Times,
May 8, 1945, and, New
York Times, Jan. 31, 1986, p. A4.
2. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept. 22,
1989; "Auschwitz Deaths
Reduced to a Million,," Daily Telegraph (London), July 17, 1990; "Poland
Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll
Estimate to 1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.
3. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press dispatch
from Moscow).
4. IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).
5. Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819). IMT blue series, Vol. 33, pp.
275-279.
6. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
Journal of Historical
Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
7. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document No.
128, in: H. Eschwege,
ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264.
8. Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385.
9. Arthur Butz, Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif.), p. 124.
10. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1989),
p. 365.
11. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT green series, Vol. 8, p. 606.
12. Testimony in Toronto District Court, March 28, 1988. Toronto Star,
March 29, 1988, p. A2.
13. Sylvia Rothchild, ed., Voices from the Holocaust (New York: 1981), pp.
188-191.
14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.
15. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.
16. "Lagerordnung fur die Konzentrationslager." Made public in 1962 by former
Auschwitz-Birkenau
inmate Prof. Jan Olbrycht. English translation published in Anthology, Inhuman
Medicine, Vol. 1, Part 1,
Warsaw: International Auschwitz Committee, 1970, pp. 149-151.
17. Dino A. Brugioni and Robert C. Poirier, The Holocaust Revisited,
Washington, DC: Central
Intelligence Agency, 1979.
18. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6.
19. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas
Chambers at
Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Toronto: 1988. Available for $17.00,
postpaid, from the IHR.
20. The Globe and Mail (Toronto), Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3.

MARK WEBER is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University, and
Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he testified as
an expert witness on the "final solution" and the Holocaust issue in a Toronto
District Court case. His many articles, reviews and essays on modern European
history have appeared in various scholarly journals and other periodicals.

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659




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------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #459732-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461640
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  David T. Fuhrmann 71301,527
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:48

>>SPECIFICALLY, WHICH HISTORIANS?  WHO?  REFERENCES?  SOURCES?

Here's your chance.  Who, EXACTLY, are these "more and more historians and
engineers...challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story"?<<

It's ALL out there.  Sorry, but I hate to keep repeating myself, so please,
read my posts to others, it's ALL out there.

>>I'll be very surprised if you come up with more than the usual, fringe folks
usually trotted out by the Institute for Historical Review.<<

It is precisely  >> the usual, fringe folks usually trotted out by the<<
holocaust museums and the intolerant Museums for Tolerances, that the
Institute for Historical Review (and a few others, mind you) is confronting,
who else would do it?  William Shirer, Eli Wiesel, J.C. Pressac or perhaps
Debra Lipstadt?   The 'Holocaust fringe'  has to get used to the idea that the
'Revisionist fringe' is looking over their shoulder.


=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #459734-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461633
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  David T. Fuhrmann 71301,527
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:09

>>RE: >>>"Pressac's book(s), also, are nowhere to be found in any bookstore or
reputable library."<<<
Neither is the work of Faurisson or the Journal of Historical Review.
What's your point?

dtf<<

Very simple and easy to understand.  Revisionist literature is DANGEROUS and
punishable by law in many DEMOCRATIC nations.
Holocaust literature is mandatory reading in  many DEMOCRATIC nations.

Get my drift?

MK


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #459728-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461637
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  David T. Fuhrmann 71301,527
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:38

>>I spent a great deal of time in Germany as my family is from there.  My
father speaks fluent German (having been born and raised there) and we have
businesses in Germany, and consequently have occasion to meet and talk to many
Germans of a wide variety of political persuasions.  I have yet to meet any
Germans who respect Hess or any of the Nazi leadership.  But I have no doubt
there are, and if one were to turn over enough rocks, one might find a few of
them.<<

If you were to take your blinders off,  you would realize that it is against
the law in Germany to speak against government indoctrinated philosophies,
expressing sympathy with the 3. Reich or to be a Holocaust-agnostic.  So, what
good is your observation???  And as far as the German masses are concerned,
they are under the controll of occupation forces and 'licensed' media.  Don't
laugh now, but here it is:

GERMANY AND THE FUTURE OF EUROPE    by Henry Morgenthau,  1951,  Preface [v]
"Since Bismarck unified Germany in 1870, Germany has presented a problem to
the rest of the world.  Germany is the most populous and the most disciplined
nation in Europe and has at her disposal an industrial potential inferior only
to that of the United States and of the Soviet Union.  In one word, Germany,
by her natural equipment, is the most powerful nation in Europe and, if nature
is allowed to take its course, is bound to gain control over all Europe.  Yet
it is this control which the nations of Europe refuse to accept; to forestall
it, they have fought two devastating wars.
"The problem which confronts us, then, is how to reconcile the natural
superiority of Germany with the political interests of the rest of the world.
This problem is at present complicated by the conflict between the Soviet
Union and the Western world, of which Germany is one of the main theaters and
at the same time the principal prize; for who controls the manpower and
industrial resources of all Germany is likely to have gained a decisive
advantage in the struggle for the domination of the world.  Yet the control of
Germany means first of all control of the minds of the Germans.  Thus the
German problem presents itself to the Western world in three different facets:
to prevent a resurgence of German imperialism, to restore Germany to political
and economic health, and to deny German resources and allegiance to the Soviet
Union.  To accomplish any of these three tasks separately would tax the wisdom
of any statesman.  To accomplish them simultaneously is indeed a task of
gigantic proportions..."

Now, please explain to me, how such mind-control of the German nation could be
accomplished? It has happened!  It has been done!
By instilling guilt and historical self-hate into the consciousness of the
people to be controlled, and a total submission to foreign ideas.
Or am I wrong?  Perhaps it's little green alien men from outer-space with even
smaller little zap-zinger-guns, constantly aiming and fireing at the brains of
the German people, turning them into obedient subjects of an alien democracy?



=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #459006-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461639
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:42

>>Who invaded continental Western Europe in 1940 (France, Belgium,
Netherlands, Luxemburg) as well as Denmark and Norway? That was Nazi Germany!
The allied forces did not make it back there until 1944. Di you mean to
suggest that Nazi Germany was fighting against itself then?<<

And who declared war on Germany?  Find out and it  will answer YOUR question.


=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460689-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 461636
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:32

>>. . . Randi responded,  in so many words, as saying that he felt there was
something inherently wrong when individuals relied upon nonsense for guidance,
decision making, etc. That's what we are dealing with, in some cases, over
this holocaust lie. Some obviously do it for racial-political reasons (and we
can't blame them for this) but many simply choose to believe in the lie in
light of the facts.<<

Cliff:

I really appreciate your post, since it hits the core, 'believing'  in things
that aren't even there, right on the head.  No one but Nobel Prize Laureate
Eli Wiesel could have explained this phenomenon better:

"What are you writing?" the Rebbe asked. "Stories," I said. He wanted to know
what kind of stories: true stories. "About people you knew?" Yes, about things
that happened or could have happened.  "But they did not?"  No, not all of
them did.  In fact, some were invented from almost the beginning to almost the
end.  The Rebbe leaned forward as if to measure me up and said with more
sorrow than anger: "That means you are writing lies!" I did not answer
immediately.  The scolded child within me had nothing to say in his defense.
Yet, I had to justify myself: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe.  Some events
do take place but are not true; others are - although they never occurred."
(Legends of Our Time, 1982 Schocken Books, New York 1982 p. viii,
Introduction)

German text:
"Was schreibst du?", fragte der Rabbiner. "Geschichten", sagte ich.  Er wollte
wissen, was fur Geschichten: wahre Geschichten.  "Uber Menschen die du
kanntest?" Ja, uber Dinge, die geschehen sind oder geschehen hatten konnen.
"Aber sie geschahen nicht?"
Nein, nicht alle. In der Tat, einige waren frei erfunden, fast von Anfang bis
Ende.  Der Rabbiner beugte sich nach vorne, als ob er mich von Kopf bis Fus
mustern wollte, und sagte mehr traurig als argerlich: "Das heist, du schreibst
Lugen!"  Ich antwortete nicht sofort.  Das ausgeschimpfte Kind in mir hatte
nichts zu seiner Verteidigung zu erwidern.  Dennoch, ich muste mich
rechtfertigen: "Die Dinge sind nicht so einfach, Rabbiner.  Manche Ereignisse
geschehen, sind aber nicht wahr.  Andere wiederum sind wahr, haben aber nie
statt gefunden."

Eli, also, was led several times to a 'shooting ditch', were  --millions--
were killed and dumped into. Every time he got to the edge, he was ordered to
turn around and go back to his barracks.  Now I wonder;  is this not true or
did this not happen, according to his own poetic philosophy?
An idiot he cannot be, he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986.  But,
before that, he stated in the same book:
"There is a time to love and a time to hate; whoever does not hate when he
should does not deserve to love when he should, does not deserve to love when
he is able."
"Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone of hate, -healthy
, virile hate- for what the German personifies and for what persists in the
German.  To do otherwise would be a betrayal of the dead."   (LEGENDS OF OUR
TIME.  page 142)

Did he receive the Award for calling for hatred of the Germans?  NO!  It
probably never happened, right?  Or is it not true?  BUT, it's on paper,
therefore, a DOCUMENT, right?  Gee, now I'm all confused.

=Manfred



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461634
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Frank Tansey[SEC] 76703,660
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:20

>>   This is the FIRST I've ever heard of claims of allied bombing of the Nazi
Concentration Camps.  Can you provide any documentation of your claim, and
what camps were targeted?<<

++Auschwitz and the Allies, Martin Gilbert++

RE:"Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to
    finally acknowledge the familiar four million figure is a deliberate
    myth."
   WHERE is this written? Can you cite a source for this claim?

++Canadian Jewish News 30. January 1992 p..8++
++Hamburger Abendblatt  25. July 1990++


RE:"In July 1990 the Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's
    Yad Vashem Holocaust Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps
    one million people (both Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither
    institution would say how many of these people were killed, nor were any
    estimates given of the numbers of those supposedly gassed."
   WHERE is this written? Can you cite a source for this claim?

++Here a compilation  of reports from official departments and respected
newspapers on Jewish victims of  'Nazi-massmurder':++

26.07.1990      Allgemeine Judische Wochen-Zeitung              4.000.000
11.06.1992      Allgemeine Judische Wochen-Zeitung              1.500.000
02.02.1995      BUNTE  (weekly magazine)                        1.400.000
01.01.1995      Damals  (periodical)                    3.000.000
23.01.1995      Die Welt  (equivalent to New York Times)
5.000.000
27.01.1995      Die Welt                                        2.000.000
23.01.1995      Die Welt                                        1.500.000
27.01.1995      Die Welt                                        1.100.000
27.09.1993      Die Welt                                           800.000
23.01.1995      Die Welt                                           700.000
01.05.1994      Focus                                      700.000
06.01.1990      Frankfurter Rundschau                        74.000
31.12.1945      French Investigation Bureau for War Crimes      8.000.000
25.07.1990      Hamburger Abendblatt                    2.000.000
31.05.1995      Hoffmann, Stalins Vernichtungskrieg 1941-45          74.000
21.12.1994      Institute fur Zeitgeschichte                    1.000.000
01.10.1946      IMT Dokument 008-USSR                   4.000.000
01.10.1946      IMT Dokument 3868-PS                    3.000.000
20.04.1989      Kogon, Der-SS-Staat                     4.500.000
20.04.1978      Le Monde                                        5.000.000
01.09.1989      Le Monde                                        1.433.000
24.11.1989      OSTA Majorowsky, Wuppertal (12 Js 1037/89)      4.000.000
31.12.1989      Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and...               928.000
31.12.1994      Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz             470.000
18.07.1990      The Peninsula Times Tribune                     2.000.000
20.04.1978      Welt am Sonntag                         4.500.000
22.01.1995      Welt am Sonntag                         1.200.000
22.01.1995      Welt am Sonntag (on another page)                  750.000
23..01.1995     Welt am Sonntag                            700.000
08.01.1948      Welt im Film (Wochenschau Nr. 137)                 300.000
25.01.1995      Wetzlarer Neue Zeitung                  4.000.000
08-10.1993      ZDF   (German TV)                               4.000.000
08.10.1993      ZDF                                     1.500.000


RE:"One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
    perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. While even these lower
    figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
    drastically over the years."

   WHERE is this witten?  Can you cite a source for this claim. Who declared
Mr. Reitlinger a "prominent Holocaust historian?

++Very prominent in Germany++


RE:"And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
    charged that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to
    instantaneously "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way
    that there was no trace left of them." No reputable historian now accepts
    either of these fanciful tales."

   This is the First I've ever heard of this.  Was such a device beyond the
technological capabilities of the Third Reich?  What MAKES such claims
"fanciful tales?"

++Whether the Germans had the capabilities or not is not the issue.  They
simply did not intended to eliminate the Jews on an 'industrial scale",
ficticiously known as holocaust.   Well, it appears you haven't heard a lot
RE: holocaust.  This being the case may I advise you to get a little more
involved with Revisionist literature, rather than me trying to 'educate' you?



RE:"A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz
    commandant Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the
    U.S. prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. Although it is still widely
    cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is
    actually a false statement that was obtained by torture...."

   This is the First I've ever heard of this. Question: even of the confession
WAS obtained by torture, does that AUTOMATICALLY make it a False Confession?

++Brother, you know very little don't you?  Try to pass this on to any
legimate (!)  court.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 461635
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Frank Tansey[SEC] 76703,660
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:25

>>  "You can fool some of the people all of the time,
           and all of the people some of the time, but you
           cannot fool all of the people all of the time."<<
(Lincoln)

I think the holocaust-rat-pack is already recognizing that fact.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461641
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:53

>> Mayer asserts this without citing any documentary or testimonial evidence.
He has failed to reply to requests to defend this and many other such
questionable assertions in his book.<<


Mike:

He must be a jewish holocaust denier. Funny, he is not the only one.

>> Manfred is a naughty boy.  This post is lifted wholesale, without
attribution, from Mark Weber's "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts."  It is generally
considered polite (at least) to credit the author whose text you  are using
even though Weber doesn't care in the least. I'm sure would like the credit
though.<<

Sorry, Mike, for being a naughty boy .  I redeemed myself, however, by
posting the WHOLE enchilada, with credits and references, in another post to
you.  I hope this will not bend my credibility all out of shape?


=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461642
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:08:59

>> Sweibocka, Teresa.  _Auschwitz: A History in Photographs_.
   Bloomington and Warsaw: Indiana University Press and Ksiazka I
   Wiedza, 1993, 287-288.  (1.1 to 1.5 million)<<

I'm glad to see you're beginning to recognize the absurt numbers-game of
Auschwitz.
I find jewish sources a little hard to swallow, since they have an agenda to
protect (or an ax to grind), but, things are beginning to lighten up.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 461643
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:09:06

>> It might come as a rather disagreeable surprise to those who believe  that
Hoess was mistreated before he made many of his statements,  to learn that the
exact text of his testimony taken at Nurnberg,  Germany on 1 April 1946,
between the hours of 14:30 and
17:30, as well as a subsequent session on 2 April, 1945 between  the hours of
10:00 and 12:30, is extant and available for perusal
in their original text as the 'Pretrial Interrogation Series of the
International Military Tribunal at Nuernberg.' <<

Mike:

The Nuremberg Trials Documents have lost ALL credibility, except for believers
(the last refuge and comfort for their sinking claims), and only mirror the
red-hot hatred against the German nation.  Many years after the war, and I
mean;  many years after the war,  not on April 1 & 2 1945, when any bestiality
against Germans was an 'understandable' act of devine Christianity,  British
military intelligence sergeant Bernard Clarke described how he and five other
British soldiers tortured the former commandant to obtain his "confession."
Hoess himself privately explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I
signed a statement that I  killed two and half million Jews.   I could just as
well have said that it was five million Jews.    There are certain methods by
which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not." .
Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
Journal of Historical Review,  Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
so-called "confession"  (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal), are
not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to
death.    Hoess' wife and children were also
threatened with death and deportation to Siberia.   In his statement -- which
would not be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess
claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek."   In fact, no
such camp ever existed.   He further claimed that during the time that he was
commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated
there, and that a further half million died of disease.  Today no reputable
historian upholds these figures.   Hoess was obviously willing to say
anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to
save himself and his family.  His testimony was written in english, a language
he did not understand, and he signed it!

Mike, you're still reading OLD WAR II  PROPAGANDA.  Get off of it, things have
changed.  Step out of the circle of hardcore 'believers' and see the light.

=Manfred



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461103-#Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 462889
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:32:57

>>      You and Swiger and some others recently showed up suddenly in LIVING
and made things unpleasant for the regular forum members until they kicked you
out.  Now, you're in MILFORUM, where I don't remember seeing you before, and
peddling the same baloney.  This does not appear to be a random coincidence.<<

NO, it's a random act of 'violation' by the respective Sysops.  And as far as
making life unpleasant for some  people, heck, they don't have to read it.
The porno-peddlers use the same argument and are applauded for it. 

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462889-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 463004
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:21:32

>>NO, it's a random act of 'violation' by the respective Sysops.

        What rules did they "violate" then?

>>And as far as making life unpleasant for some  people, heck, they don't have
to read it.  The porno-peddlers use the same argument and are applauded for
it.

        Bad example.  Pornography is clearly against the rules of this and
every other Compuserve forum.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 462890
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  David T. Fuhrmann 71301,527
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:01

>>Nice try but you can't simply tell people not to respond to your messages.<<

Oh please, respond.  However, my posts are so popular, that I cannot keep up
answering them all.  Sorry.

=Manfred


 >> However, my posts are so popular, that I cannot keep
up answering them all.  Sorry. <<

 You mean you have no documentation to answer them.



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461192- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 462894
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:20

> And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged
> that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously
"vaporize"
> 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of
> them."   (note 4) No reputable historian now accepts either of these
fanciful
> tales.

>> No, Mr. Weber, Mr. Jackson did _not_ - emphatically did NOT -  make this
"charge." Mr. Weber knows that, and Mr. Koch should
know it, unless he simply accepts IHR material blindly.<<

And ALL holocaust-literature is to be ACCEPTED BLINDLY, otherwise one is a
neo-Nazi, right?
And, what's the difference whether Jackson said it or someone else?  The story
was out there for years, creating hate for the German people!


=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461191- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 462896
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:32

>> Ah, yes, Mr. Weber... the link between continental Holocaust  deniers and
German Nazis. A truly, er, unbiased source!<<

So, my friend, what you're trying to tell me is;  Only Jews tell the truth,
all others are lying neo-Nazis?

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461118-#Babi Yar - Msg Number: 462904
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:34:23

>It would be soooooo easy to investigate the site.  Archeologist could have a
field day.<

>>      In 1943?  Really?  Can't you think of anything which was going on in
this part of the Soviet Union in 1943 that might have prevented a thorough
investigation?<<

>>Furthermore, the numbers of 'victims', again, range from 35,000 to 120.000.
In other words, another poetic fantasy from the overstimmulated minds of
German-haters.

        Where did you get these figures?  Here is the report of Einsatzgruppe
C, dated Nov. 3, 1941:

        As far as the actual executive actions are concerned, the Commandos
        of the Einsatzgruppe have liquidated around 80,000 persons up to now.
        Among them are around 8,000 persons who, on the basis of
investigations,
        were proved to have taken part in anti-German or Bolshevist activity.
        The remainder was dealt with on the basis of retaliatory measures.

        Several retaliatory measures were carried out in the context of major
        operations.  The largest of these actions took place immediately after
        the capture of Kiev; Jews with their whole families were utilised
        [verwandt] exclusively.

        The difficulties arising from such a major operation -- above all
        as regards getting hold of them -- were overcome in Kiev by putting
        up wall posters inviting the Jews to be resettled.  Although initially
        we only expected about 5-6,000 Jews would report, 30,000 Jews turned
        up who, as a result of a clever piece of organisation, still believed
        they were going to be resettled until just before their execution.

        Although up to now around 75,000 Jews have been liquidated in this
        fashion, it must surely be clear that it does not provide a feasible
        solution to the Jewish problem. . . .

I apologize to those who have already seen this report, but since Manfred
seems to have missed it, I feel justified in re-posting it.<<


Forrest, I don't mind the 'pain', but WHERE CAN I FIND THAT REPORT?   Who gave
the order and who signed it? 

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462904-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 463036
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  02:29:24

>>Forrest, I don't mind the 'pain', but WHERE CAN I FIND THAT REPORT?

        There is no secret about it.  It is published on p. 1095, v. 2 of
_Nazism, A History in Documents and Eyewitness Accounts, 1919-1945_.  The
source cited is "G.R. Uebershaer and W. Wette, eds., 'Unternehmen Barbarossa',
Der deutsche Ueberfall auf die Sowjetunion 1941 (Paderborn 1984)."

>>Who gave the order and who signed it?

        Sorry, the published extract doesn't show a signature.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461130-#Holocaust: NOT! - Msg Number: 462905
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:34:31

>You completely forgot to confront me with some facts.  Why?<

>>Har, that's a good one!  Whenever were you interested in any facts?<<
Allways, Forrest.

>>  I posted for you a long extract I had translated from _Mit eignen Augen.
Botshaft einer Auschwitz-Ueberlebenden_ (Gerlingen: Bleicher, 1983).  Did you
even reply?  Not a word!  What was your response to the numerous documents we
have posted in evidence of the Babi Yar massacre?  Nothing whatever!  Instead,
you have cut and paste from revisionist sources a long string standard
arguments disputing "evidence" that no one here has presented.<<

There are just as many eyewitness accounts that dispute your eyewitness
accounts.  It's a futile effort to put them vis-a-vis.

>>Insofar as I can tell, you have ever said a word here unless it was a
falsehood or a diversion or an irrelevancy or a misrepresentation.<<

According to YOUR opinion, that may be so.  You never disputed anything I
posted, except by posting, again, items that are in dispute for years and are
being revised.  I'm talking Revisionism, not old horror accounts.

>>... you have ever said a word here unless it was a falsehood...<<

Oh now, really?  You didn't read much of what I 've posted, did you ?  I have
a few goodies here that I want you to DISPUTE or call them LIES.
This author is on the same level as Henry Morgenthau and Ilja Ehrenburg.
Don't forget to reply and dispute, please. .

"Germany Must Perish"     (DEUTSCHLAND MUSS UNTERGEHEN)
By Theodore N. Kaufman.   Written in 1941 (before the entry of US America into
WW2)

Today's War is not a war against Adolf Hitler.
Nor is it a war against the Nazis.
It is a war of peoples against peoples; of civilized peoples envisioning
Light, against uncivilized barbarians [Germans] who cherish arkness. Of the
people of those nations who would surge forward hopefully into a new and
better phase of life, pitted against the peoples of a nation who would travel
backward enthusiastically into the dark ages.  It is a struggle between the
German nation anf humanity.
Hitler is no more to be blamed for this German war than was the Kaiser for the
last one.  Nor Bismark before the Kaiser.  These men did not originate or wage
Germany's wars against the world.  They were merely the mirrors reflecting
centuries-old inbred lust of the German nation for conquest and mass murder.

This war is being waged by the German People. It is they who are responsible.
It is they who must be made to pay for the war.  Otherwise, there will always
be a German war against the world.  And with such a sword forever hanging
overhead the civilized nations of the world, no
matter how great their hopes, how strenuous their efforts, will never succeed
in creating that firm and solid foundation of permanent peace which they must
first establish if ever they intend to start the building of a better world.
For not only must there be no more German wars in fact; there must not even
remain the slightest possibility of one ever occurring.  A FINAL HALT to
German aggression, not a temporary cessation, must be the goal of the present
struggle.
This does not mean an armed mastery over Germany, or a peace with political or
territorial adjustment, or a hope based on a defeated and repentant nation.
Such settlements are not sufficiently conclusive guarantees of no more German
aggression.
This time Germany has forced a TOTAL WAR upon the world.
As a result, she must be prepared to pay a TOTAL PENALTY.
And there is one, AND ONLY ONE, such total Penalty:  Germany must perish
forever!
In fact --not in fancy!     (Page 5 ff)

"Why breed children while Germany breeds war?"  (P.10)
"Suppose we are forced again to kill?  For wars are won only by such killing,
not by dying."  (P.11)

"When the day of reconing with Germany comes, AS COME IT WILL, there will be
only one obvious answer.  No statesman or politician or leader responsible for
post-war settlements will have the right to indulge in the personal luxury of
false sentiment and specious sanctimony and declare that Germany, misled by
her leaders, shall deserve the right of resurrection!"  (P. 13)

"And most of all, he will not be permitted to disregard the unselfish
sacrifices made by the common people so that the beast that is Germany shall
never roam on earth again!  (...)  There is no longer any alternative:  ( p.
14)

"For, to reiterate, the German idea of world-dominion and enslavement of its
peoples is no political belief: it is a fierce and burning gospel of hate and
intollerance, of murder and destruction and the unloosing of a sadistic
bloodlust.(...)  ("Germany Must Perish"  T.N. Kaufman  p.33,
"Yet defeat will on no account erase their [the Germans] desire to conquer and
rule the world.  There is only one way to frustrate such a desire: the goal of
world-dominion must be removed from the reach of the Germans and the only way
to accomplish that is to remove the German from the world!"  (p.28)


Germany has lost its war. She sues for peace. The imperative demands of the
victor people that Gewrmany must perish forever makes it obligatory for the
leaders to select mass sterilization of the Germans as the best means of
whiping them out permanently.  They proceed to: 

1)  Immediately and completely disarm the German army and have all armaments
removed from German territory.
2)  Place all German utility and heavy industrial plants under heavy guard,
and replace German workers by those of Allied nationality.
3)  Segregate the German army into groups, concentrate them in severely
restricted areas, and summarily sterilize them.
4)  Organize the civilian population, both male and female, within territorial
sectors, and effect their sterilization.
5)  Divide the German army (after its sterilization has been completed) into
labor battalions, and locate their services toward the rebuilding        of
those cities which they ruined.
6)  Partition Germany and apportion its lands.  The accompanying map gives
some idea of possible land adjustments which might be           made in
connection with Germany's extinction.
7)  Restrict all German civilian travel beyond established borders untill all
sterilization has been  completed.
8)  Compel the German population of the apportioned territories to learn the
language of its area,  and within one year to cease the
publication of all books, newspapers and notices in the German language, as
well as to restrict German-language broadcasts and                discontinue
the maintenance of  German-language schools.
9)  Make one exception to an otherwise severely strict enforcement of total
sterilization, by exempting from such treatment only Germans             whose
relatives, being citizens of various victor nations, assume financial
responsibility for their emigration and maintenance and moral
     responsibility for their actions. Thus, into an oblivionwhich she would
have visited upon the world, exists Germany.

Endorsed by:
A Sensational Idea!  (Time Magazine)
A Provocative Theory-  Interestingly Presented.  (Washington Post)
A Plan for Permanent Peace among Civilized Nations.  (New York Times)
Frankly Presents the Dread Background of the Nazi Soul.  (Philadelphia Record)


Perhaps you will recognize, NOW,  the historical importance of lies against
the German nation.  

There are 2 Replies.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462905-Holocaust: NOT! - Msg Number: 463008
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:33:50

Manfred,

  <>

  Then post them! Show us how disputed this type of evidence truly is!

  And, by the way--post the WHOLE source, or provide quotes to provide its
ENTIRE context--and  a complete citation--so we can see what else you leave
out.... Don't want you to be guilty of ommission or mistranslation again....

George


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462905-Holocaust: NOT! - Msg Number: 463037
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  02:40:52

>>There are just as many eyewitness accounts that dispute your eyewitness
accounts.

        Dispute what?  That the Einsatzgruppen killed people?  Who disputes
that?

>>You never disputed anything I posted, except by posting, again, items that
are in dispute for years and are being revised.

        What, for example, about the report of the Einsatzgruppen? Who
disputes it?  How, is it "being revised?"

>>Oh now, really?  You didn't read much of what I 've posted, did you ?  I
have a few goodies here that I want you to DISPUTE or call them LIES. This
author is on the same level as Henry Morgenthau and Ilja Ehrenburg. . . .

        The author is someone I've never heard of.  What he advocates is
something which was obviously never put into practice, because there is still
a nation called Germany. What Germany got was the Marshall Plan, and not
whatever Kaufmann is jabbering about. Or do you call that LIE?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461136-#The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 462899
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:47

M.K.  post: >The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay
statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence of
extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about gassings
at Auschwitz were widespread.<

Your answer: >>Such nonsense!  Here is an extract from the memoir of Marc
Klein a medical Professor at the University of Strassburg, and an ex-inmate at
Asuchwitz, published " Etudes germaniques," No.3, 1946.  Your friend Horst
brought this to our attention, so you can ask him if it isn't true:<<

   >> I came back with all the details of the triage on the embankment
    at Birkenau and I can give an exact description of the gas chambers
    and the crematories.  Here are the essentials.  Those who, one
    by one, were selected at the embankment were condemned to disappear
    without being given any grounds for suspicion.  They were given,
    after being stripped of their possessions, a towel and a bar of soap.
    Then, they were led into a special building above the entrance of
    which appeared the word "Bains" ["Baths"].  On entering the showers,
    they were subjected to vapors of cyanide gas, produced by a special
    substance, Zyclon B, which was generally used to exterminate rats on
    board ships.  Death followed instantly.  The bodies were then
    incinerated by means of a very modern and efficient crematorium.  The
    work of hauling bodies to the ovens was done by a special detail of
    prisoners, who enjoyed a number of material comforts and who were
    themselves periodically eliminated and replaced by a new group.<<

So, you give me, again, 'evidence' that is based on  >> hearsay statements of
former Jewish inmates<<.  Eli Wiesel, you forgot Eli Wiesel.  Do you have ANY
scientific evidence?  Any hard document, other than those srewy affidavits? 

There are 2 Replies.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462899-The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 463009
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:33:52

FORREST <>

MANFRED <> hearsay
statements of former Jewish inmates<<>>

  Why Manfred, this was simply a document referred to orginally by one of your
"Revisionist" buddies. If it is simply hearsay from a Jewish inmate, why
didn't you challenge it then?

  You didn't seem to see any need to challenge the sentences (taken out of
context) which were provided by Horst, so we thought that this document met
your [ever-changing] "rules of evidence."

George


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462899-The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 463029
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  02:18:52

>>So, you give me, again, 'evidence' that is based on  >> hearsay statements
of former Jewish inmates

        What hearsay?  This is the personal account of Marc Klein, who was
cited by your friend Horst, and it is based on his personal knowledge.  How is
that "hearsay?"

>>Eli Wiesel, you forgot Eli Wiesel.

        What about Wiesel?  You can't dispute Klein, so you dispute Wiesel?

>>Do you have ANY scientific evidence?  Any hard document, other than those
srewy affidavits?

        How about the records of the engineers who built the crematoria and
gas chambers?  Would that be good enough?  See "Auschwitz," below.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461276-#The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 462898
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:42

>Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and returned
to their home countries.<

Of course they were.


>> Like who?  When?  Names?  Dates?  Published accounts? Anything at all?<<

Well, my friend, since you are such a detail-minded person, please tell me
first; Who said 6 mill. Jews were gassed?  >> Like who?  When?  Names?  Dates?
Published accounts? Anything at all?<<  You should have NO problems with that,
OR?  Don't regurgitate the old stories that have been the center of disputes
for years. i.e. affidavits, horror-novels, Spielberg-movies, Lanzman-movies,
poetic eyewitness accounts and such.  NO;   real evidence that would stand up
in an American court.   Most of your 'evidence' would be laughed out of court
here, hence, no such trials, yet.  Canada and most of  Western Europe, have
given up the practice of a fair and just  -juris prudence-.  For those
stepping out of the holocaust line it's several years in jail.   Canada is so
close and this country may be next. 

There are 2 Replies.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462898-The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 463010
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:33:54

  <>

  Guess you'll have to see if there are any states still being run by <> to get a "fair" hearing.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462898-The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 463028
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  02:12:28

>>Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and
returned to their home countries.

>> Like who?  When?  Names?  Dates?  Published accounts? Anything at all?

>>Well, my friend, since you are such a detail-minded person, please tell me
first; Who said 6 mill. Jews were gassed?

        Typical, typical  You can't answer the question.  You have no evidence
for your ridiculous claims.  You repeat falsehood after falsehood, just like
your beloved Fuehrer and his charming little Goebbels.  And when you are
challenged, you simply change the subject . . .

>> Like who?  When?  Names?  Dates? Published accounts? Anything at all?<<
You should have NO problems with that, OR?

        You do not answer my question, because you cannot.  But I will answer
yours, because can.  Here, for example, is the report of the War Refugee
Board, November, 1944:

        It is a fact beyond denial that the Germans have deliberately
        and systematically murdered millions of innocent civilians -- Jews
        and Christians alike -- all over Europe.   This campaign of
        terror and brutality, which is unprecedented in all history
        and which even now continues unabated, is part of the German
        plan to subjugate the free peoples of the world

        So revolting and diabolical are the German atrocities that the
        minds of civilized people find it difficult to believe that they
        have actually taken place.  But the governments of the United
        States and of other countries have evidence which clearly
        substantiates the facts.

        The War Refugee Board is engaged in a desperate effort to
        save as many as possible of Hitler's intended victims.  To
        facilitate its work the Board has representatives in key spots
        in Europe.  These representatives have tested contacts throughout
        Europe and keep the Board fully advised concerning the German
        campaign of extermination and torture.

        Recently the Board received from a representative close to the
        scene two eye-witness accounts of events which occurred in
        notorious extermination camps established by the Germans.  The
        first report is based upon the experiences of two young Slovakian
        Jews who escaped in April, 1944 after spending two years in the
        Nazi concentration camps at Auschwitz and Birkenau in southwestern
        Poland.  The second report is made by a non-Jewish Polish major,
        the only survivor of one group imprisoned at Auschwitz . . .

Reports by Rudolph Vrba, Alfred Wetzler, Czelaw Mordowicz and Arnost Rosin are
attached.

>>Most of your 'evidence' would be laughed out of court here, hence, no such
trials, yet.

        There already was one, in case you have forgotten, in 1946-47. Twelve
Nazis were sentenced to death, as they richly deserved.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461141-#The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 462893
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:16

>>The exact numbers matter insofar as they are an indication of the severity
of the crime.
>>"Another epidemic in the same regions during the 14th Century --known as the
Black Death -- killed one-fourth to one-half the population of Europe, or
about 75 million people." -- _American Academic Encyclopedia_<<
>>"One-fourth to one half" is quite a big yo-yo, if you are interested in such
things.  Should we conclude that no such thing as the Black Death occurred?
Is there "something sinister" behind this story?<<

Brother, You really come up with some zingers.  We're not talking 14th
Century, were it took months, if not years, for news to get around,  we're
talking 20th Century (in case you haven't noticed it yet) with almost instant
news coverage.


>>So you agree that the crime occurred?<<

Dresden was a crime, Hiroshima was a crime, Katyn was a crime, Eisenhower was
a crime,  and most of the Holocaust distortions and lies are a crime. Which
one are YOU referring to? 

There are 2 Replies.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462893-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 463011
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:33:56

  <>

  Eisenhower was a PERSON. What he did may have been a crime, but you have yet
to demonstrate that.

  By the way, what is your opinion of the bombings of Rotterdam and Coventry?
Since you seem to be concerned about allied bombing? (And for goodness sake,
why do you leave out Hamburg if that is your concern?) Not that any of this
has to do with the lies you are peddling about the Holocaust.

George


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462893-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 463022
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:47:37

>>Brother, You really come up with some zingers.  We're not talking 14th
Century, were it took months, if not years, for news to get around,  we're
talking 20th Century (in case you haven't noticed it yet) with almost instant
news coverage.

        And almost as amazing secrecy.  The Holocaust was planned in deepest
secrecy. Anyone who spoke of it was subject to the most severe punishment.  As
Himmler himself said, in a speech on Oct. 4, 1943 in Posen: "We can talk about
it quite frankly among ourselves and yet we will never speak of it publicly.
Just as we did not hesitate on 30 June 1934 to do our duty as we were bidden,
and to stand comrades who had lapsed up against the wall and shoot them, so we
have never spoken about it, and will never speak about it."  Then, in 1945,
all records were ordered destroyed.

        And, now, because there are no precise figures for the number of Jews
killed, you claim that it never happened.

>>So you agree that the crime occurred?<<

>>Dresden was a crime, Hiroshima was a crime, Katyn was a crime, Eisenhower
was a crime,  and most of the Holocaust distortions and lies are a crime.
Which one are YOU referring to?

        More recriminations. You know very well that I was not referring to
Dresden, Hiroshima, Katyn, Eisenhower, nor "distortions and lies," but to the
Holocaust, the organized murder of millions of innocent people.

        Did it happen or didn't it?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461277-#The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 462891
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:05

>>Leuchter confessed that he was not an engineer and had never taken any
engineering license test.  As a result of the court case, he signed a consent
decree to cease and desist from presenting himself as an engineer and issuing
any reports, including the one on Auschwitz, in which he offered opinions as
an engineer.<<


Let me quote you a letter (January 13, 1988) from the
DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS AND HUMAN RESOURCES
State of Missouri:


Dear Ms. Kulaszka:

I received your letter regarding Queen vs. Zuendel and the testimony of an
expert witness dealing with execution by "gas chamber".  I have considerable
knowledge in that area, however, I suggest you contact Mr. Fred A. Leuchter,
108 Bunker Hill Street,  Boston, MA 02192, home telephone number 617-322-0104.
Mr. Leuchter is an engineer specializing in gas chambers and executions.  He
is well versed in all areas and is the only consultant in the United States
that I know of.
If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call on me at any
time.

Sincerely

Bill M. Armentrout
Warden

ba/pb


A copy of the letter can be obtain from Zuendel, via E-mail, I guess.  Fred A.
Leuchter had nothing to 'confess'.  He was harased and persecuted by jewish
hooligans and ultimately driven from his position as outlined in the letter.
He is a broken man now.  He was neither jew nor Nazi, therefore, his
statements had  no loyalty to anyone.   Your distorted arguments, however,
come from jews with an ax to grind.

=Manfred

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462891-The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 463016
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:34:26

>>I suggest you contact Mr. Fred A. Leuchter, 108 Bunker Hill Street,  Boston,
MA 02192, home telephone number 617-322-0104. Mr. Leuchter is an engineer
specializing in gas chambers and executions.  He is well versed in all areas
and is the only consultant in the United States that I know of.

        What source did Armentrout have for this statement, other than
Leuchter's own claims?  In the trial, Leuchter testified under oath that he
was *not* an engineer.

>>Fred A. Leuchter had nothing to 'confess'.  He was harased and persecuted by
jewish hooligans and ultimately driven from his position as outlined in the
letter.

        Leuchter never had any position.  He was a self-proclaimed "expert"
with no qualifications in his supposed field.

>>He was neither jew nor Nazi, therefore, his statements had  no loyalty to
anyone.   Your distorted arguments, however, come from jews with an ax to
grind.

        As for whether Leuchter was a Nazi, I can't say. I do know that he was
an abysmally ignorant man whose absurd "report" was gleefully seized on
neo-Nazis, who continue to promote it as "proof" that the Holocaust never
happened, even though it was thoroughly refuted in court.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461338-#Weber's Listing - Msg Number: 462900
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:52

>> In _The Final Solution_, one of the first books to deal with the
   Holocaust, published in 1953, the figure of four million was
   radically reevaluated.  English historian Gerald Reitlinger
   estimated the number of victims of Auschwitz to be roughly 800,000
   to 900,000, based on an analysis of the losses of Jews reported by
   specific countries as well as his study of extermination records.
   Since then, other estimates lower than the figures quoted by the
   Soviet and Polish commissions have been advanced, especially in
   Western publications.  These estimates have ranged upward from one
   million.<<

>> This fellow (=Manfred) asks "who lowered the numbers"?  Obviously the real
figures  were known as early as 1953, long before so-called "revisionists" hit
the  scene.<<

That's very funny, VERY FUNNY.    The huge granite stones with their well
polished bronze lettering in 19 languages, did not come down until 1992 (I
believe, correct me). The 'RIGHT HAND OF GOD', the Vatican-Pope himself, stood
before those monolithic obscenities in Auschwitz  (1979) and 'blessed' the 4
mill. 'victims'. Was that man completely ignorant about the truth?  Did no
Jewish historian go up to him and say:  "Your Excellency, this is just a
Polish joke, don't embarres yourself by blessing 3 mill. non-existing
'victims."     Is that what you're trying to tell me now?
Never, never did I see a book, a TV show, a Hollywood movie or other media or
any holocaust-experts  ridiculing the Poles for having the numbers all wrong.
I can see the wonderful Polish jokes that could be spun around that.  NO!!!
Not ONE word from all the Gurus of holocaust.  NOT ONE came forward and
proclaimed;  The 4 mill. figure is pure CRAPOLINSKI.  But, perhaps, hundreds
of lives were snuffed out or ruined for saying just that, before the BIG joke
of the Poles collapsed.

=Manfred  

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462900-Weber's Listing - Msg Number: 463012
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:33:57

  <>

  I wonder how many serious historians could refrain from laughing if, as a
source in a paper, a collegue cited "on a granite stone at XYZ."

  


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461453-#About that long list - Msg Number: 462903
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:34:18

>>And I must go on since you provide so much "valuable" information.<<

Thanks, for your effort, Mike, however, you come from the corner of those who
'believe' there were gaschambers in Auschwitz, while I come from the opposite
corner.  The evidence, that NO gaschambers were used in Auschwitz to kill
Jews, except those to kill vermin, is overwhelming, while the 'evidence' for
the existence of such killing cubicles is solely based on rumors and hearsay
and fantastic affidavits.
An affidavit is nothing more than a (fantastic) story, listened to by
'witnessess', signed and  affixed with a rubberstamp and passed out as
evidence. There you have it.  And the same goes with pictures.  Nobody knows
what they represent, until the 'propper' caption is affixed to it.

As a counter reference I suggest Dr. Wilhelm Stäglich's book;  -The
Auschwitz-Mythos-.  Now, I know what you might want to say, that Stäglich is a
Nazi, or what ever atributes or name-calling is appropiate with your side for
people disputing the orthodox stories of the holocaust, but he isn't.  He,
too, like many Germans and other nationalities, suffered the consequences for
speaking as an eyewitness for the OTHER side.
Also, I'm sure you are familiar with Arthur R. Butz's book;  -The Hoax of The
Twentieth Century-.  Their (Revisionist) literature sounds so much more
convincing, perhaps, one does not get the feeling of hate eminating from them,
which is so obvious in the pro-holocaust books.  Holocaust poet, Eli Wiesel,
discredits the whole scheme when he says something like; a witness told him
that the ground was trembling at Babi-Yar and geysers of blood, three feet
high, squirted out of the ground  for months, from the victims 'murdered' by
the Germans.  PLEASE, gimme a break.  If the jews need the holocaust to
provide adherence for  the secular jews in the diaspora, that's fine with me,
but not at the cost of the German or any other nation.   I consider Babi Yar
closed, since I gave all the reasons for my not believing in Soviet documents
in another post to you, and have nothing more to add.

>> During the course of discussions like these, we are certain to  see Mr.
Koch denounce cited Nazi documents as forgeries. It is
therefore instructive to ask "On what basis do you accept a  document as
genuine?" In short, to establish a basis for Mr. Koch's standards of
evidence.<<

Let me present only ONE example of, perhaps, thousands like it.   It was
established, at the IMT, as a fact, that 4 mill. people were gassed in
Auschwitz.  That NO LONGER is true.   I have provided data to that respect.
The 'documented evidence', coming from those quarters, classed as Nazi
documents, must and should be scrutinized before they are excepted as proof.
Not untill this day, did holocaust pro and contra discussions take  place.
Everytime there appeared to be an agreement, the holocausters retreated at the
last moment. Not to mention the fact that NO legal presentation of evidence
was ever possible in a court of law, without fear of resulting persecution.

=Manfred


=Manfred


There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462903-About that long list - Msg Number: 463013
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:34:00

  <>

  You referred in a post to<>. Is that your reason for not
believing any Soviet documents?


  << The 'documented evidence', coming from those quarters, classed as Nazi
documents, must and should be scrutinized before they are excepted as proof.>>

  So tell us, what are your standards for proof? For evidence? Is it simply
"nothing which disagrees with the revisionists' twisted version of history?"

  My, how many ten of thousands it must have taken to create all these
docuents that you seem to claim were all part of a conspiracy.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461469-#Babi Yar - Msg Number: 462897
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:38

RE:  Babi Yar   >>   "Operational Situation Report USSR No. 106 <<

Here we are, Mr. Curtis, dragging in Bolshevik documentation again.  REMEMBER?
This country (US) built the biggest bombs, built airraid shelters, spent
billions of dollars to 'protect' the 'Free World'  from the -evil empire- and
you want people to give any credence to USSR  documentation?  You've got to be
kidding, really!   Anything, that came from this 'evil' , jewish Bolshevik
system (as it was known THEN until the end of WWII) is a forgery, a lie, a
distortion and outright 'crapov'.  The only true things, coming out of the
USSR, are those after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the collaps of Bolshevism,
anything before that, FORGET IT!

Let's review   =The Journal of Historical Review= (not printed in the Evil
Empire but in the good old USA)
January/February 1994, Vol. 14,  No. 1,   p.5  (Mark Weber)

Winston Churchill, for one, warned in an article published in the February 8,
1920, issue of the London Illustrated Sunday Herald  that Bolshevism is a
"world wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the
reconstruction of society on the basis of arrested
development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality."   The eminent
British political leader and historian went on to write:

"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism
and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these
international and for the most part atheistical Jews.  It is certainly a very
great one; it probably outweighs all others.  With the notable exception of
Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews.
"Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish
leaders.  Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal
subordinate, Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or
Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinoviev, the
Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek all Jews.
"In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing.
And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of
terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating
Counter-Revolution [the Cheka] has been taken by Jews, and in some notable
cases by Jewesses ...
"Needless to say, the most intense passions of revenge have been excited in
the breasts of the Russian people."

Now, Mike, try to dispute that one and then tell me more about 'Soviet
Dokumentskajas'.  And don't tell ME Churchill was a neo-Nazi.
You'll have to come up with better documentation than Ruski trash.


=Manfred

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462897-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 463014
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:34:02

  <>

  My, what a novel interpretation of Soviet history in the 1930s and 1940s you
seem to have. Yes, getting rid of Trotsky, Joffe, Zinoviev, Litvinov...all was
to preserve the "jewishess" of the Soviet state. Yes, the Russified Georgian
dictator who spent several years in an orthodox seminary and then years
removing Jews from virtually positions of power was simply preserving the
<> as a Zionist stronghold.

  Such a crackpot version of history. Perhaps that is why others laugh at your
other interpretations of history.


  <>

  Reading Goebbels again? Perhaps if you bothered doing any research you would
see that the Trotsky, "Litvinoff" and others written of in 1920 were gone long
before 1945.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 462888
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:32:49

>>In 4000 years of 'persecution' they have learned how to survive, but not how
to live with the goyim.

>>      I'm sure that my college roommate, Robert Margolis, would object to
that.  For that matter, I object to it.<<
That's fine with me, however, my line refers not to individuals, since I have
two very good Jewish friends myself.


My quote: >John 8,44: "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to
do your father's desires.  He was a murderer from the beginning, and has
nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.  When he lies,
he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of
lies."<

>>      That you misquote historians is bad enough.  That you misquote the
Bible is intolerable.  In John 8:44, Jesus was saying simply that all men are
born sinful.<<
Wooh, please, don't paraphrase John 8,44.   If I'm wrong, please, give me the
RIGHT text,  WORD by WORD!!!


>>  "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit."  (John 3:6)<<

That's not John 8,44 ! ! ! 

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462888-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 463003
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:17:16

>>In 4000 years of 'persecution' they have learned how to survive, but not how
to live with the goyim.

>>I'm sure that my college roommate, Robert Margolis, would object to that.
For that matter, I object to it.

>>That's fine with me, however, my line refers not to individuals, since I
have two very good Jewish friends myself.

        If you have "two very good Jewish friends" (I wonder if they know
about your opinion of the Holocaust?), then how can you claim that the Jews
cannot live with the goyim?

>>That you misquote historians is bad enough.  That you misquote the Bible is
intolerable.  In John 8:44, Jesus was saying simply that all men are born
sinful.

>>Wooh, please, don't paraphrase John 8,44.   If I'm wrong, please, give me
the RIGHT text,  WORD by WORD!!!

        You are following the standard IHR practice of taking a quote out of
context.  In this case, you are using a quote from Jesus, taken out of
context, as a condemning the Jews.  This is a very odd interpretation, since
Jesus was the son of a Jew.

        When Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of
your father ye will do . . ." he was speaking to "those Jews which believed on
him," (John 8:31), that is, not to any Jew who practiced Judaism, but to
converts to Christianity.  This category also included the disciples, Jesus
himself, and almost all the early converts to Christianity.  Hence, you cannot
say that Jesus was condemning the Jews, unless you infer that he was also
condemning himself and his disciples.

        What Jesus clearly meant was that *all* men are born sinful.  He is
elaborating on the message of John 3:6: "That which is born of the flesh is
flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."  As Paul further
explains (1 Cor. 14:50): "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption."


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Babi Yar - Msg Number: 462892
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:12

>>Sorry for the monetary blunder. I find your information about this NYT
reporter very interesting. To the best of  your knowledge, has there ever been
any forensic evidence of mass graves full of Jews at this Babi Yar?<<


I don't think so.  The only mass-graves I have ever seen, are in
Bergen-Belsen.  Who and why these 'victims' are there, I have no detailed
accounts of them .  It was a "Krankenlager"  (camp for the sick) were typhus
patients were brought.  The various head-stones at the end of those mounts,
indicating mass-graves, say:
5 000 dead lie here, April 1945;   15 000 dead lie here, April 1945;   6 000
dead lie here, April 1945;  10 000 dead lie here, April 1945 and so on.
Another monument, in the center of the realestate, proclaims something like:
"50 000 victims lie here, murdered by the bestial SS."   The terrain is strewn
with hundreds of Jewish grave stones, and a stone plate,  inconspiciously
mounted in the ground, proclaims: "The Grave Stones in this area have only
symbolical meaning. They do not mark Graves."

In other words, just another optical farce to promote hatred and play on the
gullible.  There are NO mass-graves in Dachau or Buchenwald or Sachsenhausen.
I visited  all those camps myself and searched and asked around.  However,
Sachsenhausen (by Berlin) has a mass-grave of 50 000 Germans, murdered by the
Bolsheviks, who ran the camp after the war.  Dachau has a mass-grave of approx
580 German prison guards (I was told a parking-lot for the police stationed
there was paved over it), murdered on the spot by the 42. US Rainbow Division
on the "Day of Liberation' (29. April 1945). Read:  "The Hour of The Avenger",
Col. Howard Buechner, Medical Corps A.U.S.  (Ret.)  ISBN  0-913159-04--2


=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  # The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 462895
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:27

>>  Even by your own admission, the "revisionists" have changed the estimate
of the number of Jews gassed at Auschwitz to 1.1 Million. Yet instead of
quibbling with that number, you chose to quibble with whether or not it
occurred _at_all_.<<

George

You still don't get it, do you?   It's the so-called concept of 'industrial
extermination' of the Jewish people that's in dispute.  It never has been
documented, other than by those feeble sourses in dispute, whether that took
place or not.  Understand one thing, nobody disputes that Jews, subversives,
communists and other enemies of the State were incarcerated.  Nobody disputes
the fact that Jews died, just like millions of other human beings, as in all
wars.  It's the fantastic accusations that give me problems.

>>P.S. OOC, which channel is "Panorama" on in Germany? Where might someone in
the U.S. get a transcript of this program with Simon Wiesenthal?<<

Write to:  Lea Rosh, NDR Germany.

=Manfred

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462895- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 462984
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:06:30


  <>

   <>--reams upon reams upon reams of eyewitness
testimony, many given by the Nazis who carried out this genocide against
"untermenschen," many from official reports made by various Reich agencies
during the war, when there was no danger of "coercian" (what, Jewish
resistance fighters entering an Einsatzgruppen headquarters and forcing them
to type out a report?).... Even more feeble than the <>
(sic) are your efforts to contrdict them. Tell us--what are your rules of
evidence? The revisionist argument is rife with contradictions, yet whenever a
document is cited against the revisionists, it is "false" or "feeble"--even if
it is from a document which had earlier been cited by a fellow revisionist and
unchallenged then.

  This is quite an act of deconstruction--to be able to divine that four or
six sentences from a multi-page document represent "THE TRUTH," but the many
other paragraphs or pages from that SAME document are all "LIES" or
"disinformation." Tell me, do those who determine such things use a forked
stick or a silver rod or other such device?

  Tell us, what are your rules of evidence???

   <>

  Surely you can do better than that. I doubt that "Lea Rosh, NDR,
Bundesrepublik Deutschland" will get me far.

George


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 462901
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:34:07

>>Although you were on the mark with an earlier post about the true definition
of an anti-semite, I believe that today it is possible to use it in context to
mean a jew-hater.  This is because, regardless of the literal meaning, there
is little chance that it will be misunderstood.  (I never thought I would
spend time arguing semantics ).<<

Argue this one, Avner!

"Germany Must Perish"    (DEUTSCHLAND MUSS UNTERGEHEN)
By Theodore N. Kaufman.   Written in 1941 (before the entry of US America into
WW2)

Today's War is not a war against Adolf Hitler.
Nor is it a war against the Nazis.
It is a war of peoples against peoples; of civilized peoples envisioning
Light, against uncivilized barbarians [Germans] who cherish Darkness. Of the
people of those nations who would surge forward hopefully into a new and
better phase of life, pitted against the peoples of a nation who would travel
backward enthusiastically into the dark ages.  It is a struggle between the
German nation anf humanity.
Hitler is no more to be blamed for this German war than was the Kaiser for the
last one.  Nor Bismark before the Kaiser.  These men did not originate or wage
Germany's wars against the world.  They were merely the mirrors reflecting
centuries-old inbred lust of the German nation for conquest and mass murder.

This war is being waged by the German People. It is they who are responsible.
It is they who must be made to pay for the war.  Otherwise, there will always
be a German war against the world.  And with such a sword forever hanging
overhead the civilized nations of the world, no
matter how great their hopes, how strenuous their efforts, will never succeed
in creating that firm and solid foundation of permanent peace which they must
first establish if ever they intend to start the building of a better world.
For not only must there be no more German wars in fact; there must not even
remain the slightest possibility of one ever occurring.  A FINAL HALT to
German aggression, not a temporary cessation, must be the goal of the present
struggle.
This does not mean an armed mastery over Germany, or a peace with political or
territorial adjustment, or a hope based on a defeated and repentant nation.
Such settlements are not sufficiently conclusive guarantees of no more German
aggression.
This time Germany has forced a TOTAL WAR upon the world.  As a result, she
must be prepared to pay a TOTAL PENALTY.
And there is one, AND ONLY ONE, such total Penalty:  Germany must perish
forever!
In fact --not in fancy!     (Page 5 ff)

"Why breed children while Germany breeds war?"  (P.10)
"Suppose we are forced again to kill?  For wars are won only by such killing,
not by dying."  (P.11)

"When the day of reconing with Germany comes, AS COME IT WILL, there will be
only one obvious answer.  No statesman or politician or leader responsible for
post-war settlements will have the right to indulge in the personal luxury of
false sentiment and specious sanctimony and declare that Germany, misled by
her leaders, shall deserve the right of resurrection!"  (P. 13)

"And most of all, he will not be permitted to disregard the unselfish
sacrifices made by the common people so that the beast that is Germany shall
never roam on earth again!  (...)  There is no longer any alternative:
GERMANY MUST PERISH." ( p. 14)

"For, to reiterate, the German idea of world-dominion and enslavement of its
peoples is no political belief: it is a fierce and burning gospel of hate and
intollerance, of murder and destruction and the unloosing of a sadistic
bloodlust.(...)  (  p.33,

"Yet defeat will on no account erase their [the Germans] desire to conquer and
rule the world.  There is only one way to frustrate such a desire: the goal of
world-dominion must be removed from the reach of the Germans and the only way
to accomplish that is to remove the German from the world!"  (p.28)


Germany has lost its war. She sues for peace. The imperative demands of the
victor people that Gewrmany must perish forever makes it obligatory for the
leaders to select mass sterilization of the Germans as the best means of
whiping them out permanently.  They proceed to:

1)  Immediately and completely disarm the German army and have all armaments
removed from German territory.
2)  Place all German utility and heavy industrial plants under heavy guard,
and replace German workers by those of Allied nationality.
3)  Segregate the German army into groups, concentrate them in severely
restricted areas, and summarily sterilize them.
4)  Organize the civilian population, both male and female, within territorial
sectors, and effect their sterilization.
5)  Divide the German army (after its sterilization has been completed) into
labor battalions, and locate their services toward the rebuilding of those
cities which they ruined.
6)  Partition Germany and apportion its lands.  The accompanying map gives
some idea of possible land adjustments which might be made in connection with
Germany's extinction.
7)  Restrict all German civilian travel beyond established borders untill all
sterilization has been completed.
8)  Compel the German population of the apportioned territories to learn the
language of its area, and within one year to cease the publication of all
books, newspapers and notices in the German language, as well as to restrict
German-language broadcasts and discontinue the maintenance of German-language
schools.
9)  Make one exception to an otherwise severely strict enforcement of total
sterilization, by exempting from such treatment only Germans whse relatives,
being citizens of various victor nations, assume financial responsibility for
their emigration and maintenance and moral
responsibility for their actions.
Thus, into an oblivionwhich she would have visited upon the world, exists
Germany.

Endorsed by:
A Sensational Idea!  (Time Magazine)
A Provocative Theory-  Interestingly Presented.  (Washington Post)
A Plan for Permanent Peace among Civilized Nations.  (New York Times)
Frankly Presents the Dread Background of the Nazi Soul.  (Philadelphia Record)


Avner, is this guy nuts or something?  This war was NOT against Hitler OR the
NAZIS?  This war was against the German people?   I don't suppose YOU see any
hate in this Jews attitude, do you?  If by some miracle you do, tell me, and
what should we call it?

=Manfred



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 462902
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Frank Tansey[SEC] 76703,660
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:34:12

>>   Kinda mixed up aren't you.  The passage is NOT at all about ALL Jews.
By-the-way, you may be surprised to learn this, but Jesus and John were
both Jews.

                             Frank.<<


Frank, the Christian religion is Jewish.  However, there are disputes, like
all things.  The soft-brained characteristics of Christianity fulfill the same
purpose as the holocaust-guilt-religion.


=Manfred



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