From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:39 EDT 1998
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From: Werner Knoll 
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CFADC.83406DD5@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll, when asked for
> a specific documentary reference in Goldhagen's book,
>  wrote:
> 
> [Mr. Knoll had eralier asserted]
> 
>   "This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>  Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>  German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>  "Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>  promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>  CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>  Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus."
> 
> [to which I replied]
> 
>  "I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
>  includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
>  Jews," Mr. Knoll."
> 
> >A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
> >21, 1998.
> >In there and this are the words:
> >
> >How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
> >and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
> >thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
> >being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
> >Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
> >book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
> >that.
> 
> In other words, Mr. Knoll has not read Dr. Goldhagen's book.
> Neither, quite clearly, has Doug Collings, or Mr. Slepokura. That's
> ok, Mr. Knoll - it was clear you hadn't read it because Goldhagen
> never said it, but don't let that stop you from continuing to make a
> fool of yourself.

Your  scenario does not and will not fly.

You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
not making assumptions on this subject.

Perhaps you should find out about a Norman Finkelstein whose parents
were in Warsaw and in Ausschwitz. He said that Goldhagens book is a
disgrace and distortion of the truth. Do not take my word for it. It
cannot be true because I picked it off the German news groups.

Nowhere did I  say that I read this book.

The other problem I have with you that you are posting articles about
the holocaust and like people to believe that everything you say is
true? Perhaps it is the wrong impression I am getting here? Are you
asking me not to believe what come along the way of the Internet because
it cannot be trusted? If that is the case that people should think
twice to visit your web site??

What kind of a society we have today when people like you ask other
people not to believe anybody else and only you??


> 
> >> (I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
> >> in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
> >> author...)
> 
> >I do have a problem with people like you and the holocaust industry. At
> >one hand I do know there was a holocaust and if I were a Jew I would
> >most certainly like to tell the world about it. At the other hand
> >knowing that saying it to many times could do more harm than it will do
> >good.
> 
> But Mr. Knoll does not have a problem attributing statements to Daniel
> Goldhagen that he has never made. Interesting, that.
> 
> >I know that you are an adult and realize that in this propaganda war
> >innocent people will always get hurt. You may say that to blame all the
> >Jews for killing Jesus is going overboard but what you people are doing
> 
> Do you blame Jews for killing Jesus, Mr. Knoll? I would find it
> strange, of course, but not unusual. The Catholic Church, however,
> disagrees, and it's clear they know something Mr. Knoll does not: That
> the Romans killed the man.

Why should I have a problem with that? I am not a religious person. I am
only saying that for hundred of years Jews were persecuted because
Christians believed that the Jews were instrumental to get Jesus killed.
Another twisting around of words by you.
> 
> >is exactly the same. After 1945 many people in Germany were made aware
> >what happened in this concentration camps and I am sure that all the
> >people I have know at this time did feel ashamed of this. There comes a
> >time when people start saying enough is enough and if this will not stop
> >and apparently it does not, this people will say this has to stop and
> >get angry.
> 
> Mr. Knoll suggests that if a historical fact makes him uncomfortable,
> it should be suppressed. Interesting mindset, I concede.

Another distortion again.
What I said it is your continues effort to give the same medication even
when the patient is healed.

> 

Well here we go. The Nazis used the word LYING in connection with Jews
every time. Boy you have learned very fast to use this tactics have you?

You show me were I said that you in person would like to censor
holocaust deniers what I said that the people you represent have done
this by using laws who work in their favor. 

You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
it is better to give you the whole story.

Subject:      Collins on Canada's neo-McCarthy-ite censorship
From:         slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura)
Date:         1998/04/05
Message-ID:   
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[Subscribe to can.general]


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in
Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's city
hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him;
in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by the
politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that
protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms
is
a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be fired from their
jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, too, an author like
David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner speech about free
speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an immigration pretext -
while
many killers and crooks of all kinds are allowed to remain here and
while
Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by shootings. That's something else
the people of Oliver might think about when they sign petitions asking
the
Attorney General in effect to go after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet
service. But once again, let's not blame them. They are victims of a
massive propaganda campaign. That's what I was getting at when I wrote
that famous or infamous column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel
was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared for the
defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was incomprehensible to me
that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told the
court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,
and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had to say
is
probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly good at
spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting that
appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as Oliver
has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the Supreme
Court
of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law was nixed.
Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human
rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's called
now,
is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The Littmans think
it's
wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that
the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List. I
said
that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, and she
should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a two-hour
program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which confirmed
my
view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was tired of hate
literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's List had to be the
555th. movie on the same subject. Think about that, when the Littmans
and
the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate about hate literature. How would
you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead and you
were
reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask
yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German, being told by
Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that Germans have a
pathological hatred of Jews? That's what he did in his book Hitler's
Willing Executioners. Isn't that hate literature? But there's not much
fuss about that. The book is freely available in Canada, while books to
which the pressure groups object are not. They are stopped at the
border.
Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down
to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I
was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,
I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of which Sol
Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of Salmon Arm are
so
concerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the
many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that even
if
I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to have the
right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a Ministry
of
Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for neo-Nazis,
which is what he called me on television. And speaking of television,
it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator
had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore News headline
put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in my opinion,
because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but because she knew
that if the case had gone to court the complaint would have been found
to
be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human Rights Code is a Heresy
Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason why I am here
today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. 
Here are the facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is
not a defence, as it is with libel and slander; publication in the
public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work
done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by
a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we
still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of these
would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down, just
as
the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians who pass
such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and
free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free press
has
cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like Mr.Fromm,
have
been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side to this. In the
case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed nearly $150,000
to
its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool all the people all the
time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed
that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings of which
he
approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet the media
quote
him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was
a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist Action
Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school grounds.They
would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. was instrumental
in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro Council. He himself has
received hundreds of thousand of dollars in grants from government,
which
finances the anti-freedom movement. . They would also find that hotels
have been bullied - terrorized might be a more appropriate term - into
not
renting premises to groups of whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons
disapprove.That happened in Surrey a couple of years ago when the late
Pat
Burns of radio fame was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to
have
spoken on Bill 33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find
that no less a person than the Attorney General of this province
approved
of what they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta
Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give space to a
group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.They would also
find that attempts have been made by the same people to deny groups
space
in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I mentioned a minute ago is a
leader in that endeavor. He has asked the National Library Association
to
do that, using the trigger word "hate groups". But so far the libraries
have refused to be panicked. And if the media are too lazy to seek all
that out by themselves, I can help them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff
you
should be doing, Oliver Chronicle, Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail,
Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of you. You don't do it, but I can
tell you again this: I'm old enough to have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts
got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough to shout Jew,
Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to shout white
supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are different but
the spirit is the same.
A word or two about the Internet. The Internet is seen by the Littmans
as
a threat. How dreadful that people can actually send out messages to the
world without their having to go through the filter of a press dominated
by the poltivally correct. So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet
can’t be killed then ruin anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take
orders
and won't act as a censor. I should point out here that I have seen
nothing of what the Littmans and Co are bitching about, nor have most of
the media who echo what Littman says. I had never even heard of the
Charlemagne Hammerheads before this affair blew up and I have never had
lunch with a skinhead, ans what they are supposed to be saying is
certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell you something. I can be my own
censor, thanks very much. I don't need Littman's help.The same option is
open to all Internet users. But Littman can't trust the public. He wants
to treat people like children, while yelling about discrimination. To
which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and
housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct
threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and
explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't
need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust
the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in spite of the
demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, Canadians will hold
steady. We've been through crazy times before and survived, and I'm here
today in the expectation that we'll survive this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a
tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the creation
of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow us the
privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL THOSE OPINIONS
MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read
any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge? And
what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with
him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code does
not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what hate
literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in Alice in
Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print
last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by pointing out
that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for
translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and
others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to
the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown
to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. To the
Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you
can quote me.
How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running for cover? How
about
it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should stand. You should be
standing right here with the rest of us, not passing by on the other
side
of the street.
I will conclude by saying that I am 77 years of age, that I defended
freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on the loose, in the 1950s when
McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s when the federal hate laws were
passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in Victoria passed their misnamed
Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on defending freedom until the day
I
die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech] 

=-=-=-=-=

-- 
******************************************************************
What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
                                                                  *
The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
*******************************************************************


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:40 EDT 1998
Article: 117750 of can.general
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From: Werner Knoll 
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
I have never made any statement where I said that I read Dr. Goldhagen's
book. Yet you accuse me of lying.
If I were Sol Littman or David Matras, I would recall you on the spot
for being incompetent. Every time you are opining your mouth, you give
the likes of Zundel one more reason to say that the are right.

Now part of my previous posting you would not read the proper way.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:06:19 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
 Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
  References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14
John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
What have all this statements in common? This are words used in everyday
speech to get a point across and in no way means that 100% of any group
are bad people. For instance Nazi’s. Who is a Nazi? Well I must have
been one for sure. In 1945 my brother, me and father had to go to court
to be denazified. I mean what we done was a very very serious offence.
My brother and me were 12 years old in 1945. One question we were asked,
if we do know anything about some concentration camps. We said no. One
guy on this panel started to grin said "Welllll they didn’t Knoww"??



> In other words, Mr. Knoll has not read Dr. Goldhagen's book.
> Neither, quite clearly, has Doug Collings, or Mr. Slepokura. That's
> ok, Mr. Knoll - it was clear you hadn't read it because Goldhagen
> never said it, but don't let that stop you from continuing to make a
> fool of yourself.

> >I know that you are an adult and realize that in this propaganda war
> >innocent people will always get hurt. You may say that to blame all the
> >Jews for killing Jesus is going overboard but what you people are doing
> 
> Do you blame Jews for killing Jesus, Mr. Knoll? I would find it
> strange, of course, but not unusual. The Catholic Church, however,
> disagrees, and it's clear they know something Mr. Knoll does not: That
> the Romans killed the man.
> 
> >is exactly the same. After 1945 many people in Germany were made aware
> >what happened in this concentration camps and I am sure that all the
> >people I have know at this time did feel ashamed of this. There comes a
> >time when people start saying enough is enough and if this will not stop
> >and apparently it does not, this people will say this has to stop and
> >get angry.
> 
> Mr. Knoll suggests that if a historical fact makes him uncomfortable,
> it should be suppressed. Interesting mindset, I concede.
> 
> >I know  we have a problem here. Unemployment and bad times are the
> >breeding ground for fringe elements like skin head and other riffraff.
> >To get rid of this problem, people like You are willing to sensor free
> >speech and this is wrong.
> 
===========================
> Mr. Knoll, not satisfied with lying about a non-existend Goldhagen
> quote, now attributes to me a desire to censor Holocaust deniers.
> Perhaps Mr. Knoll will tell me where I said I wanted to do that. A
> DejaNews or Nizkor URL would be useful.... I, however, will be happy
> to provide a URL which demonstrates that a prominent Holocaust denier,
> to wit Ernst Zundel, supports and urges censorship when Holocaust
> education is involved. Mr. Knoll may wish to comment in his spare
> time.


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:40 EDT 1998
Article: 117756 of can.general
Message-ID: <354EA15D.A4D7EA3A@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >> >My principals in general is live and let live or shall I say: "Do unto
> >> >others as you would have them do unto you"
> >> >
> >> >If he thinks to get away with harassing me, than he must be dreaming.
> >> >Many people tried this before and did not succeed.
> >> >
> >> >You see there is a way to solve this problem:
> >> >
> >> >Number one; I will continue to chase him around and make sure that he
> >> >found his master. It will be people like you, innocent bystanders who
> >> >will be most offended by this and it will be people like you who will
> >> >cry to stop it.
> >>
> >> You are not a master of your own life, sport; you couldn't become one of
> >> another.
> >
> >Never said I was and neither are you but I have the will and ability to
> >get you to pull your hairs out of your head. If you think for one moment
> >that I cannot get under your skin, think again.
> 
> Werner, you couldn't get under your own skin, if you tried.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:41 EDT 1998
Article: 117789 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> >That seems rather strange? Ernest Zundel likes to tell his story and
> >being censored asking the government to censor you people?
> 
> Mr. Knoll, does this mean that you will not condemn his attempts to
> censor information he does not like? Please address this question.

What does the word seems rather strange mean to you? It is obvious that
I do not approve of any kind of censorship.

How can you contemn this man for asking a funny question? It would be
different if he is able to say what he wants but likes to censor
everybody else like you people do.

> 
> Having done so, please tell me who "you people" refers to in the
> sentence above.
> 
> >If I were him, I would asked the government for a level playing field.
> 
> But he did not - he asked for censorship.

Perhaps he was denied the opportunity to represent his side on the
Internet. As a result of this, he may have said OK censor the others
too???

> 
> >Could it be possible there is no level playing field here at all and he
> >is Blackmailed by you people? When will he get the next parcel with
> >razor blades?
> 
> Who is this "you people," Mr. Knoll? Do you have evidence that he
> received a parcel of razor blades? Was this in the paper somewhere? If
> so, please explain whether you are asking _me_ this question (god
> knows why you'd ask me, but there's no accounting for some...) and if,
> by "you people" you mean some other bunch, tell me why you are asking
> me to speak for them, and why you feel that I can.
> 
Vancouver Province Sunday March 29, 1998
Trio charged in connection with razor blades in mail.
Darren Nathan Barbarash age 28 and Rebecca Rubin age 23 are charged with
possession of explosive.

Police began a probe in 1995 after Toronto Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel
received a mouse trap rigged with razor blades in the mail.

Could it be that the purpose of your organization is to incite hatred
against people like Zundel

BTW. Why don’t you have a link to Zundels web side when you are so
interested about what Zundel is doing? Oh I got it; it is against the
law for him to spread his gospel?
Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:41 EDT 1998
Article: 117791 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
> >you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
> >Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
> >not making assumptions on this subject.
> 
> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> 
> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> 
> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> 
> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> him to document that comment.

Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
your task to find out!
> 
> As to the rest of the questions, pick #1, or #2 above.
> 
> >Perhaps you should find out about a Norman Finkelstein whose parents
> >were in Warsaw and in Ausschwitz. He said that Goldhagens book is a
> >disgrace and distortion of the truth. Do not take my word for it. It
> >cannot be true because I picked it off the German news groups.
> 
> What Mr. Finkelstein thinks about Goldhagen's book is of no interest
> to me - nor is it relevant to the discussion. The topic of that
> discussion was whether or not the book contained a blanket condemnation
> of the German people. Goldhagen's scholarship, and some of his
> conclusions, have been under academic attack since the book was
> published. (Contrary to what you seem to believe, I am not defending
> Goldhagen, although I believe he proved his thesis, albeit in somewhat
> sloppy fashion.)
> 
> >Nowhere did I  say that I read this book.
> 
> Correct. What you did, however, was repeat something you had read
> without verifying the information first. Had you done so - read
> Goldhagen, for instance, or checked the archives here, you would have
> quickly discovered that Doug Collins is no stranger to printing lies.
> If you'd like to discuss that, fine, but it's another topic, eh?

Does this now mean that news papers, radio, TV cannot be trusted? You
and cannot quote anything what is going on around us because it could
not be true? Amazing. 

Newspaper clipping in the Vancouver Province tells me that Collins won
his rights skirmish. It also says that his column was nasty but didn’t
violate the code.

It also say’s that the Canadian Jewish Congress filed a case and desist
order. Fact is that you people were trying to censor him because he was
talking about your holocaust industry.

> 
> >The other problem I have with you that you are posting articles about
> >the holocaust and like people to believe that everything you say is
> >true? Perhaps it is the wrong impression I am getting here? Are you
> >asking me not to believe what come along the way of the Internet because
> >it cannot be trusted? If that is the case that people should think
> >twice to visit your web site??
> 
> I do not demand that you accept everything I say as true, nor have I
> ever. I try my best to document my assertions, so that you can check
> my source and make up your own mind.
> 
> >What kind of a society we have today when people like you ask other
> >people not to believe anybody else and only you??
> 
> That sure would stink, Mr. Knoll. Fortunately, I don't do that, so the
> question is rhetorical.
> 
> >> But Mr. Knoll does not have a problem attributing statements to Daniel
> >> Goldhagen that he has never made. Interesting, that.
> 
> [Mr. Knoll declined comment]
> 
> >> >I know that you are an adult and realize that in this propaganda war
> >> >innocent people will always get hurt. You may say that to blame all the
> >> >Jews for killing Jesus is going overboard but what you people are doing
> 
> >> Do you blame Jews for killing Jesus, Mr. Knoll? I would find it
> >> strange, of course, but not unusual. The Catholic Church, however,
> >> disagrees, and it's clear they know something Mr. Knoll does not: That
> >> the Romans killed the man.
> >
> >Why should I have a problem with that? I am not a religious person. I am
> >only saying that for hundred of years Jews were persecuted because
> >Christians believed that the Jews were instrumental to get Jesus killed.
> >Another twisting around of words by you.
> 
> I will give you benefit of the doubt and accept your explanation of
> your intent. I apologise for the misinterpretation. Having said that,
> I must agree with you: Blaming all the Jews for killing Jesus is
> stupid and wrong. I have not, however, blamed all the Germans for the
> Holocaust. Neither, by the way, does Daniel Goldhagen.
> 
> Since neither I nor Goldhagen do or say the things you attribute to
> us, your comparision is meaningless.
> 
> >> >is exactly the same. After 1945 many people in Germany were made aware
> >> >what happened in this concentration camps and I am sure that all the
> >> >people I have know at this time did feel ashamed of this. There comes a
> >> >time when people start saying enough is enough and if this will not stop
> >> >and apparently it does not, this people will say this has to stop and
> >> >get angry.
> 
> >> Mr. Knoll suggests that if a historical fact makes him uncomfortable,
> >> it should be suppressed. Interesting mindset, I concede.
> 
> >Another distortion again.
> 
> Really? You suggested that Germans were all ashamed after the war, and
> that now they are angry because history is taught. I don't see any
> other way to interpret your remark.

It is the way it is done What you people are doing here is constantly
crying to get things your way. I f you were a child in a family who need
constant attention, I would not be surprised if your father comes along
and give you a smack in you behind.

> 
> >What I said it is your continues effort to give the same medication even
> >when the patient is healed.
> 
> Some patients, Mr. Knoll, are not healed. Witness the antisemitic
> assault on the net, and the denial of the Holocaust.

That is true. Take a look how some people are trying to fault immigrants
and racial minorities for everything what is wrong today. Looks like
Germany in the past were the Jews were the easy targed.
> 
> >Well here we go. The Nazis used the word LYING in connection with Jews
> >every time. Boy you have learned very fast to use this tactics have you?
> 
> Please document my lies, Mr. Knoll. Tell me where I have lied - A
> DejaNews reference would be useful.

It was this statement below I made when you accused me of lying. What I
am saying that you people are accusing others of lying and pointed out
that the Nazis were using the same words about the Jews.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 18:40:56 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
it is better to give you the whole story.

> 
> >You show me were I said that you in person would like to censor
> >holocaust deniers what I said that the people you represent have done
> >this by using laws who work in their favor.
> 
> You do such things continually, Mr. Knoll, with your sweeping
> generalites about censorship. Have you forgotten what you wrote so
> quickly, then?

 Surely, you do work for an organization and can hardly claim to be
neutral and only a one man show?

Was Sol Littman and B’Nai Brith instrumental for shutting down the
Oliver service supplier? Was  this action taken to censor him? 

> 
> >You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
> >about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
> >it is better to give you the whole story.
> 
> Sir, You have not yet, in this entire thread, quoted Goldhagen. Not
> once. Neither did Mr. Collins, neither did Mr. Slepokura.
> 
> Get used to it.

So what is your point Are you trying to tell me that Goldhagen never
wrote this book even when others say  he did. because the did not quote
him? Really!

> 
> [Doug Collins via Slepokura, offers us, in Mr. Slepokua's words,
> "as a censorship-busting exercise in free speech. "]
> 
> [Collins is opposed to Canada's anti-hate laws. So am I.]
> 
> [Collins says naughty things about Sol Littman. Mr. Littman says
> naughty things about me. Yawn.]
> 
> >It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
> >propaganda
> >put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
> >button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
> >used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
> 
> Gee, is Mr. Collins suggesting that the boneheads in Oliver, wearing
> their swastikas, were not "neo-nazis?" Racial supremacits.... Marc
> Lemire, for instance? Interesting view he has from whatever planet
> he's on.

Well next thing you going to be scare of news papers because some of the
stuff they write could hurt your feeling. I id not see on the news any
neo nazi’s living in Oliver.
> 
> >rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
> 
> What issues might those be, Mr. Collins?
> 
> [Collins complains we aren't Americans]
> 
> >a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be fired from their
> >jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, too, an author like
> >David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner speech about free
> >speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an immigration pretext -
> >while
> 
> David Irving was arrested because he lied upon entry. After his
> arrest, he lied under oath once again before the Canadian Immigration
> Adjudicator. You'd think a straight-shooter like Collins would at
> least be able to dig up some facts, eh, Mr. Knoll?
> 
> Here's the URL - you might want to tell Mr. Collins about it:
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/canada/iat-index.html
> 
> The jist of the Adudicator's report, however, sums it up:
> 
> "When viewed as a whole this evidence can lead to only one conclusion;
> the event was a total fabrication and never took place.
> I can only speculate that you and your supporters concocted your story
> to garner further publicity and prolong your stay
> in Canada, both of which you have done with some success.
>  That being the case I find that the action
> taken by Canadian Immigration authorities at Niagara Falls on November
> 1, 1992 was based on facts that at the time appeared
> indisputable and have now been found to have been valid, namely that
> you were at the time of your attempted entry to the United
> States on November 1, 1992 a person to whom a departure notice had
> been issued but who had not been granted lawful permission
> to be in the United States."
> 
> Funny Doug didn't mention it....
> 
> >many killers and crooks of all kinds are allowed to remain here and
> >while
> >Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by shootings. That's something else
> >the people of Oliver might think about when they sign petitions asking
> >the
> >Attorney General in effect to go after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet
> >service. But once again, let's not blame them. They are victims of a
> >massive propaganda campaign. That's what I was getting at when I wrote
> >that famous or infamous column on Hollywood Propaganda.
> 
> Mr. Collins told some real whoppers in that column, to be certain...
> claiming, for instance, that the International Red Cross had produced
> a report which, in fact, it had not produced.
> 
> [Collins objects to "Publishing False News" statute. So the the
> Supreme Court of Canada. Yawn.]
> 
> >But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
> >human
> >rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's called
> >now,
> >is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The Littmans think
> >it's
> >wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't they!.
> 
> Mr. Collins would rather citizens be left with no-where to turn...
> yessir, his brand of free speech does not include the right to be free
> from......
> 
> [Mr. Collins complains about BCHRC hearing, neglecting to mention that
> the hearing found his article was antisemitic but not hateful.]
> 
> >the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate about hate literature. How would
> >you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead and you
> >were
> >reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask
> >yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German, being told by
> >Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that Germans have a
> >pathological hatred of Jews? That's what he did in his book Hitler's
> >Willing Executioners. Isn't that hate literature? But there's not much
> 
> Mr. Knoll, please note that Mr. Collins did not quote Dr. Goldhagen.
> He made a false claim, but he did not quote. He could not have done
> so, because no such statement is to be found in the book.

Fact is that he mentioned Goldhagen and his book. It make no difference
wherever he was using a quote to prove his point. In all likelihood he
used his own interpretation to get a point across. 

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:42 EDT 1998
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Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> > ...
> > I have a Paperback Book in my possession. I am talking about the book "
> > Other Losses" I had this book first from the library. This book was
> > reprinted in October 1989, February 1990 and May 1991. ISBN:
> > 0-7736-7309-1
> > There are many changes from the original I read in the library. As a
> > matter of fact the one I do have now is a revised edition. I am sure you
> > know what revised means.
> >
> > Mister Doug Collins Is a world War II veteran. He was taken Prisoner by
> > the Germans and liberated by the allies. He saw Bergen Belsen. Worked as
> > a political intelligence officer and the de Nazification program. There
> > is absolutely no question in my mind that that he is telling the truth.
> >
> > This man today, is hounded because he is say what some people do not
> > like to hear. With other words he is political not correct.
> 
> Werner: are you talking about Goldhagen's book, or is "Other Losses" by
> Doug Collins?  I am getting a little bit confused here.
> 
> If Collin's book is about the denazification program, I have no doubt
> that he has lots of material about injustice,  This doesn't change
> anything about the subject under discussion.  The fact that a lot of
> what was going on in Germany after WW2 was victors' revenge disguised as
> justice doesn't change the fact that bringing up events that happened
> under the Nazi regime in Germany does not constitute hatemongering

McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
revisions have been made to it.

I am sure that you and I do not support any group or person who are out
to make somebody’s live difficult because the have a different religion,
culture or color.

For me because I belong to a different culture group and experienced
hate against myselfe on account of this, It is very important to stamp
out hatred in any form.
Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:43 EDT 1998
Article: 117819 of can.general
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From: Werner Knoll 
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:  <354E2610.D205CCE6@istar.ca> <354F587A.59889C24@netcom.ca> <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca> <6iocns$ib0$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> >Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> >could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
> >I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
> >revisions have been made to it.
> 
> No, sir, I am not. I am saying that you published a false description
> of Goldhagen's thesis, and did so in support of your "We Germans are
> so hard done by" routine.

Really? Feeling good twisting things around? Telling me your statements
are correct and others fabricate things?
> 
> Since the statement was false, and did not reflect Goldhagen's thesis
> (He most certainly does _not_ blame all Germans for the Holocaust!), I
> pointed it out to you.

Again your word against Collins word. If I believe you, I have to
believe Collins too. By the way Collins has earned his respect, have
you?
> 
> You then changed the subject, and began waving Bacque around. Let's
> not play Smoke and Mirrors here, Mr. Knoll.

That statement shows that you are not able to put your facts together or
by design ignore some of the statements I made. Let me repeat.

You informed my that you could find nowhere in Goldhagens book any
reverence to Collins statement. In return I gave a explanation that your
statement can be true because books are under constant revision. As an
example I gave a explanation what can happen by using Other losses as an
example Here is my quote again.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:33:20 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7



McVay could be telling the truth when he says that he cannot find this
quote in his book. Let me explain to you.
I have a Paperback Book in my possession. I am talking about the book "
Other Losses" I had this book first from the library. This book was
reprinted in October 1989, February 1990 and May 1991. ISBN:
0-7736-7309-1
There are many changes from the original I read in the library. As a
matter of fact the one I do have now is a revised edition. I am sure you
know what revised means.

This statement says it all. I am sure other people here reading your
posting will see what you are up too!

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:46 EDT 1998
Article: 117820 of can.general
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:  <354E8839.9DECB02B@istar.ca> <6inhrs$ao8$1@news.trends.ca> <354F6C21.3851176A@istar.ca> <6iocea$i5n$1@news.trends.ca>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:229138 van.general:54006 can.general:117820 bc.general:73311 ab.general:58702

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F6C21.3851176A@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> No, Sir, I accuse you of misrepresenting Dr. Goldhagen's words, which,
> >> clearly, you did. Whether it was deliberate or not, I do not know, but
> >> there is no doubt that you did so.
> 
> >How could I have done this? All I did quote a statement by Mister
> >Collins?
> 
> in a context of "Woe is me, I'm German, and everybody hates me," you
> clearly published this information to underscore your point. That you
> did not bother to validate or verify your information suggests that
> you believed it to be accurate. You quoted a lie, and you did not
> bother to check for yourself - either because, as noted, you believed
> Collins a credible source--a leap in its own right--or because you
> knew he was not representing the book accurately or honestly and did
> not care.

Perhaps you quote a lie every day and expect people to believe you?
Nowhere I said that everybody hates my Perhaps you feel that everybody
hates you? Why should I go and  verify information like this? Open your
eyes and have a look. This is a news group where people discuss the pro
and cons of any subject: You expect people to go to your web side  for
the same reason like many others to listen to your point of view. You
can convert some but not all.

It is your tactics to achieve your goal that are highly suspect.

> 
> Now. Which was it? Did you publish the misrepresentation believing it
> to be true, to be false, or of no importance either way? After all,
> you're the man who tried to convince us the whole world detested
> Germans, and you're the one that offered the misrepresentation.

You must be a real clown when you thing for one moment to get away with
your nonsense. You are trying to convince people that I am publishing
false news on purpose. In this your way to twist thing around.

I hope you go ahead with your style so people can really see what you
are. I am looking forward to your next response so you have a chance to
expose yourself and your supporters so people can see what tactics you
are using to suppress people with a different view.

Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
the get harder."

Go back to your bosses for more instructions before you make your next
move. I am waiting. I do know how to handle riffraff like you any day

> 
> >> I don't work for the chaps... Mr. Littman is hardly a fan :-) Mr.
> >> Matas and I often disagree with respect to Internet issues, but I
> >> don't work for him. (More misinformation from Mr. Knoll. What a
> >> surprise.)
> 
> > Perhaps you should talk to Raif Mair? A talk show host about
> >neutrality. He will tell you like me that it makes no difference how
> >honest you are. What counts is how the public is looking at it.
> 

Where did I say that I lied? Or encouraged you to lie?

> 
> >> >Now part of my previous posting you would not read the proper way.
> 
> >> [Mr. Knoll once again repeats a misrepresentation of Goldhagen's book,
> >> and fails to support his allegation that I wish to censor Holocaust
> >> deniers.]
> 
> >Welcome to the real world. We all are in the eyes of the public guilty
> >be association. The impression I am getting very often that you can be
> >the best person in this world and just because your ancestors done
> >something wrong, you are automatically guilty. Now you know how it
> >feels.
> 
> Mr. Knoll cannot document my alleged desire to "censor revisionists,"
> so he changes to "I am so hard done by..." and hopes we won't notice.


> 
> Mr. Knoll, you have lied about me. That's fine - lots of folks
> entertain themselves that way, and I'm used to it. I take it as my
> duty, however, to point out that you have lied - for the record, so to
> speak.

Grow up for once in your live and be honest with yourself  A record in
your twisted mind? Perhaps you can point out to my where I said that you
are lying? It would be very interesting. I can check back till 1997 in
my records.

> 
> Your avoidance, Mr. Knoll, does not oscure the reality that
> you are completely incapable of sustaining your lie. Not only have I
> never called for censorship of Holocaust deniers, on or off the net, I
> have actively campaigned against such censorship. I have done so in
> Parliament, in the press, and on national television.
> 
> As to why you chose to lie about this, I will not speculate. That you
> did so is clear.

You know something BOY? It took me another 20 minutes to find my quote
of which you said that I said that you are lying. Here it is Look way
down. You see the words:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:56:21 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
> >you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
> >Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
> >not making assumptions on this subject.
> 
> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> 
> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> 
> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> 
> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> him to document that comment.

Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
your task to find out!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To tell you the truth. You are not a worthy person. Actually you stink.
Next time you pull a stunt like this, let me know that I can pinch my
nose. Good by.

Werner Knoll
The very ink with which all history is written is merely fluid
prejudice.
Mark Twain


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:46 EDT 1998
Article: 117821 of can.general
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Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> > ...
> > > Werner: are you talking about Goldhagen's book, or is "Other Losses" by
> > > Doug Collins?  I am getting a little bit confused here.
> > >
> > > If Collin's book is about the denazification program, I have no doubt
> > > that he has lots of material about injustice,  This doesn't change
> > > anything about the subject under discussion.  The fact that a lot of
> > > what was going on in Germany after WW2 was victors' revenge disguised as
> > > justice doesn't change the fact that bringing up events that happened
> > > under the Nazi regime in Germany does not constitute hatemongering
> >
> > McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> > Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> 
> McVau said he could not find the satement in GOLDHAGEN's book (at least
> that's how I interpreted his bpost and I am pretty sure that's that what
> he meant).  If you read his post any other way I stronglu suspect that
> you didn't really rerad what you were replying to (i remember reading
> something like "I have Goldhagen's book in freont of me and I can't find
> what you quote";  I also seem to remember that in your post he was
> replying to you only mentioned Goldhagen, but not Collins)

That is true;

My response to a question by John Angus on:

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:48 EDT 1998
Article: 117837 of can.general
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Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
References:  <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca> <6im7tt$23n$1@news.trends.ca> <354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca> <6ioi54$jf8$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> >>
> >> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
> >>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> >>
> >> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
> >>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> >>
> >> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> >> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> >> him to document that comment.
> 
> >Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
> >word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
> >people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
> >is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
> >your task to find out!
> 
> But I did _not_ ask you to simply take my word for it, Mr. Knoll. On
> the contrary, I offered you a perfect and polite opportunity to prove
> your case by citing Golghagen's book. You declined to do so. This is
> not about opinions, it is about what _is_ in the book and what is
> _not_ in the book.
> 
> If you say that Goldhagen said this - that he held all Germans
> responsible for the Holocaust - then it should be very simple to
> support this allegation with cold, black and white type.
> 
> I want to bring Collins "down," Mr. Knoll? He's been down for years. I
> simply point it out when he writes his little fibs.
> 
> My task is to challenge the assertion, so that people will understand
> that not only is the statement a misrepresentation, it could not have
> been made by anyone who read the book unless it was done after a
> deliberate decision to lie about what was said.
> 
> By the way, Mr. Knoll, I'm still waiting for you to tell me who the
> "you people" are you often mention during conversations with me. Do
> you suppose, now that we've established that Mr. Collin's journalistic
> credibility isn't quite what you suggest, we could get to that?

Really? You like to bring Collins down? Let me tell you boy Mister
Collins gets more credibility by the minute when you are writing like
this.

You people?
It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your own. So
why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so you can
answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!

Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence
people. Who are this people in your organization with so much power?

You know? You are giving Jewish people  bad name. The Jewish people I
met were smart decent people. You do not have this qualification.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:51 EDT 1998
Article: 117845 of can.general
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Ken McVay wrote:
> 
> In article <354FF663.412E8D4C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I had said]
> 
> >> in a context of "Woe is me, I'm German, and everybody hates me," you
> >> clearly published this information to underscore your point. That you
> >> did not bother to validate or verify your information suggests that
> >> you believed it to be accurate. You quoted a lie, and you did not
> >> bother to check for yourself - either because, as noted, you believed
> >> Collins a credible source--a leap in its own right--or because you
> >> knew he was not representing the book accurately or honestly and did
> >> not care.
> 
> >Perhaps you quote a lie every day and expect people to believe you?
> 
> Is that what you are hoping to accomplish here by repeating your
> misrepresentation of Goldhagen, Mr. Knoll?
> 
> >Nowhere I said that everybody hates my Perhaps you feel that everybody
> >hates you? Why should I go and  verify information like this? Open your
> 
> You quoted it, and did so because you believed it to be true. I
> pointed out that it is not true, and you do not seem interested in
> discovering whether or not I am correct. That's fine, except that you
> seem to want to avoid discussing why you now won't admit that you
> don't know what the hell Goldhagen had to say. Please note that Mr.
> Sepokura also did not tell us where such an assertion could be found.

You have to run this by me again: You like me to admit that I do not
know what Goldhagen had to say? Should I buy everybody’s book to find
out what they have to say? Listen boy Mister Collins made reference to
mister Goldhagen and now you are trying to deny me the right to say what
he had to say about him. Are you sure that you have all your faculties? 
Mr Slepokuo had the courtesy to post Mister Collins speech which made
reverence to Goldhagen. Now a dirt like you comes along that I should
not use this reverence because it does not fit into your hate
propoganty? Right? Oh I know, now you are going to tell me that YOU
PEOPLE are the chosen ones and have special right which cannot be given
to others. What a clown!!

It was not Slepokuos job to find out if collins was telling the truth.
Nowhere did he say the Collins was right or wrong on this!

> 
> >eyes and have a look. This is a news group where people discuss the pro
> >and cons of any subject: You expect people to go to your web side  for
> >the same reason like many others to listen to your point of view. You
> >can convert some but not all.
> 
> Mr. Knoll, we are not talking about my website, we are talking about
> misrepresentation of an author's thesis. Can you not stick to the
> subject?

See above.

> 
> >It is your tactics to achieve your goal that are highly suspect.
> 
> My desire is to demonstrate that you say things which are not true,
> and expect us to take it upon faith that the data is correct. Had you
> published a citation along with the quote, you would have at least
> saved yourself the embarrassment of repeating a lie.
> 
> >> Now. Which was it? Did you publish the misrepresentation believing it
> >> to be true, to be false, or of no importance either way? After all,
> >> you're the man who tried to convince us the whole world detested
> >> Germans, and you're the one that offered the misrepresentation.
> >
> >You must be a real clown when you thing for one moment to get away with
> >your nonsense. You are trying to convince people that I am publishing
> >false news on purpose. In this your way to twist thing around.
> 
> No, Sir, I am trying to get you to tell me which was the case. Did you
> know the assertion was false, or did you accept it's validity on faith?
> If you accepted it on faith, I should think you would be unhappy with
> Mr. Collins for asserting untrue statements.

Did I know that this assertion was false? That is easy to say. Right now
you are telling me that it is false. Why should I trust you? because you
say so? Suppose Collins uses the same argument, what happen than?

On faith? What nonsense. I read news papers every day and make the
decision what is interesting  to talk about.

> 
> >I hope you go ahead with your style so people can really see what you
> >are. I am looking forward to your next response so you have a chance to
> >expose yourself and your supporters so people can see what tactics you
> >are using to suppress people with a different view.
> 
> I have no wish to suppress your view, Mr. Knoll. I can't imagine
> anyone would want to do that. I am trying to get you to concede that
> you published something that, when challenged, cannot be shown as
> anything but misrepresentation.

Anything I or you say can be challenged by people who have a different
opinion. Do you think for one moment that this will stop me or others to
have a opinion?
> 
> >Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
> >like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
> >the get harder."
> 
> I'm not interested in where you came from, Mr. Knoll, but I am
> interested in pointing it out when you misrepresent Goldhagen, or lie
> about me. Your whopper about my wishing to censor Holocaust deniers
> being a glaring case in point, and one you have been avoiding since
> asked to back up your writing with some facts. Consistent behavior in
> your case, I must say.

I don not particular care if you are interested or not. Your action here
clearly shows that you do not approve of what other people have to say
when it does not fit in you plans. 


> 
> >Go back to your bosses for more instructions before you make your next
> >move. I am waiting. I do know how to handle riffraff like you any day
> 
> I'm my own boss, Mr. Knoll. Now that we've got that out of the way,
> can you tell me who that "you people" is you keep referring to, or are
> you going to run away from that one, too?

The only time you are your own boss when you go to your toilet to have a
piss. The rest of  the time you are playing a team song. Go and grow up.
Telling me that you have no connections is absurd. 

> 
> >Where did I say that I lied? Or encouraged you to lie?
> 
> You have said that I want to censor Holocaust deniers, Mr. Knoll. That
> is a lie. You, having said it, were asked to explain. You failed to do
> so, and ignored the request. That tends to make things pretty clear
> where your dedication to truth is concerned, does it not, Sir?

Lets get it in your head, you are a nobody to begin with and are acting
as a mouthpiece for a big organization. It doesn’t matter what you say.
Fact is that your sponsors are trying to censor people you do not agree
with. You do not like what Collins has to say and you  made sure that
Zundel is silenced. As you noticed I was using the word YOU.

You are part of an organization wherever you like it or not. Life with
it

Perhaps no is the time for you to make the proper exit. Do it soon, so I
can put the manhole cover back on, Will you?

Werner Knoll
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon, Sayings


From werk@istar.ca Wed May  6 17:42:52 EDT 1998
Article: 117855 of can.general
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Patrick Lepine wrote:
> 
> In article <6ip65q$kie@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, dswan@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan) wrote:
> >Werner, don't hold your breath in anticipation of any
> >apology or retraction on the part of Mr. McVay.  He has
> >learned to follow the same policy as Israel:  Offer no apologies,
> >and never admit error.
> >
> >If, in any thread, he does not see the opportunity to score
> >points, he will simply cease replying rather than look weak.
> >
> >
> In this case, it's merely a convenient coincidence that he has nothing to
> apologize for, right?

Maybe McVay has to win at all cost? Or he is afraid to show his
weakness? Or the reverse gear in his car is gone? Or he feels things 
could go out of control. Perhaps he has no instructions from higher up
what to do next. So many reasons and no easy answers. Could it be that
Stalin is beyond his plan not to listen to somebody else’s IDEAS?  
Naaa.  

He is just ignorant.

Werner Knoll
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, so why should we let them have ideas?"
Joseph Stalin


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:07:54 EDT 1998
Article: 117866 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <355067AF.AC1767B8@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >You people?
> 
> Darn! I thought you were going to tell us who "you people" was...
> Shucks.
> 
> >It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your own. So
> >why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so you can
> >answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!
> 
> I have no sponsor, Mr. Knoll. I began doing this long before anyone
> but me gave a damn. Do you see banner advertising on Nizkor's pages,
> Mr. Knoll?
> 
> If you want me to accept that those who donate funds for my work are
> "sponsors," then there are rather a lot of them... I have a list of
> 500 or so, which hasn't been updated in two years. I haven't met more
> than a handful of them - and lots of names on the list look a lot like
> "Wong," of "Robinson," so I don't know what to deduce. Are these the
> "you people" you mean, or do you mean the Roman Catholic chritable
> foundation in Toronto that funded major html work last year? Are the
> kind Sisters "you people?"
> 
> >Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence


Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??

You know the saying Whose bread I eat his song I sing BOY? What would
you do without your sponsors BOY?
To make your day BOY I will post Collins speech again and again till it
comes out of your ear BOY What filthy person are you anyway??
Here comes your wake up call again and let see how far you will go with
your distortions next time. You stink, take a bath you need it BOY.


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:07:56 EDT 1998
Article: 117873 of can.general
Message-ID: <35512E43.1E316688@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Mr. Knoll refuses to define "you people" - again
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

> >Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??
> 
> Where did someone suggest Mr. Knoll denied the Holocaust? Who is this
> "BOY?" Is he one of the "you people?" [Film at Eleven]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:

: Mr. Knoll, in common with many Holocaust deniers, has no difficulty
: lying through his teeth, even about things which have clearly revealed
: him as a liar, in front of tens of thousands of people. Their
: Holocaust "scholarship" often works on precisely the same level.
-------------------------


On Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?
This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:16:44 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's

> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.

The next episode: You boy are saying that I quoted Goldhagen. Where are
the quotation marks?
Were is what my dictionary say. You Ken BOY are a fraud and a disgrace
to your community

Quote: Somebodys word repeated exactly by another person from a person
pasage  or speech.

Quotation marks: One pair of marks to mark used to indicate the
beginning and end of a quotqtion.

One more time Collins speech for you.

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:07:58 EDT 1998
Article: 117897 of can.general
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Message-ID: <3551DA35.FD3BBD48@istar.ca>
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Patrick Lepine wrote:
> 

> >Maybe McVay has to win at all cost? Or he is afraid to show his
> >weakness? Or the reverse gear in his car is gone?
> 
> 
> >He is just ignorant.
> >
> 
> Perhaps you need to reread his posts more carefully. You took a third hand
> quote and posted it as the truth.  You were called on it, and the best you can
> come up with so far is the excuse that they weren't your words, you were just
> quoting someone who quoted someone else.  _You_ are responsible for what you
> write, not the person you mistakenly believe.


Sunday May 3 1998 10:09:19
========================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Note quotation marks from willing to Germans? Oviosly it did revere to
Collins speech.

Sunday May 3  1998 19:09:46
=======================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: 3 May 1998 19:09:46 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll  
wrote:

>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)

Sunday May 3 1998 23:13:49
=========================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:13:49 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
> >Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
> >German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
> >"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
> >promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
> >CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
> >Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
> 
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
=============
Now what is this going to tell you? There was a posting.
There was a Mister John Angus inquiring. 
There was McVay to like to have his way
There was the answer where I got this quote from.

McVay is actually lucky that this is not a real live situation and
because of his holocaust industrial sponsors backing he can mouth off as
much as he likes. In al likelihood he is practicing to become a lawyer 
and likes to charge me with spreading false news next.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:07:59 EDT 1998
Article: 117898 of can.general
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:229424 van.general:54115 can.general:117898 bc.general:73399 ab.general:58825

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <35512E43.1E316688@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> >
> >> >Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??
> >>
> >> Where did someone suggest Mr. Knoll denied the Holocaust? Who is this
> >> "BOY?" Is he one of the "you people?" [Film at Eleven]

Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:

: Mr. Knoll, in common with many Holocaust deniers, has no difficulty
: lying through his teeth, even about things which have clearly revealed
: him as a liar, in front of tens of thousands of people. Their
: Holocaust "scholarship" often works on precisely the same level.

I am having a difficult time holding my nose with both hands. That why I
cut most of your smelly parts out.You got this BOY.


Sunday May 3 1998 10:09:19
========================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Note quotation marks from willing to Germans? Oviosly it did revere to
Collins speech.

Sunday May 3  1998 19:09:46
=======================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: 3 May 1998 19:09:46 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll  
wrote:

>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)

Sunday May 3 1998 23:13:49
=========================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:13:49 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
> >Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
> >German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
> >"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
> >promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
> >CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
> >Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
> 
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
=============
Now what is this going to tell you? There was a posting.
There was a Mister John Angus inquiring. 
There was McVay to like to have his way
There was the answer where I got this quote from.

McVay you are actually lucky that this is not a real live situation and
because of his holocaust industrial sponsors backing you can mouth off
as
much as you like. In all likelihood you are practicing to become a
lawyer 
and like to charge me with spreading false news next.That what happen to
Ernest Zundel?????

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:08:02 EDT 1998
Article: 117904 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> >I am having a difficult time holding my nose with both hands. That why I
> >cut most of your smelly parts out.You got this BOY.

Still holding my nose.



The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:08:12 EDT 1998
Article: 117905 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> to "boy," or "you people?")

The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them. 

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:08:19 EDT 1998
Article: 117913 of can.general
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Message-ID: <355229E5.D91863DA@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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Subject: Collins speech not seen by McVay ????
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Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:36:28 GMT
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3551EE42.302F200C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Still holding my nose.

> Mr. Knoll, in common with Holocaust deniers, often finds that
> resorting to outright lies is easier than trying to support claptrap
> with documentation.

Now you are telling me what your real name is. Mister Ken Claptrap. 
The mouth in motion man of the year. 


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:08:22 EDT 1998
Article: 117951 of can.general
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Message-ID: <35536C36.E2408419@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3553025D.524FB545@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I said]
> 
>    "In Mr. Knoll's case it was easy to label him as a liar; he lied. He
>     got caught. End of story. No files needed - Mr. Knoll was kind enough
>     to expose himself."
> 
> [Knoll tries smoke and mirrors]
> 
> >You asked me many time who do I mean with you. I said many times that I
> >was revering to you as you people. The next time you asked what do I
> >mean by your people. Again I said you must have people backing you up.
> >You said that you have communication only with others.
> 
> Does this jog your memory, Mr. Knoll?
> 
>    "It would be different if he is able to say what he wants but
>    likes to censor everybody else like you people do.
>    (Knoll, 354F60E2.8DBE5EB9@istar.ca)
> 
> Does this jog your memory, Mr. Knoll?


> 
>    "It also says that the Canadian Jewish Congress filed a case and
>    desist order. Fact is that you people were trying to censor
>    him because he was talking about your holocaust industry."
>    (Knoll, 354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca)
> 
> As I am not a member of the Canadian Jewish Congress, nor Jewish, the
> "you people" above aims squarely at me, and nowhere else.
> 
> Does this jog your memory, Mr. Knoll?
> 
>    "You do not like what Collins has to say and you  made sure that
>    Zundel is silenced. As you noticed I was using the word YOU."
>    (Knoll, 355082DC.F03E7278@istar.ca)
> 
> "...you made sure Zundel is silenced," Mr. Knoll? And you still insist
> you have not accused me of wanting to censor Holocaust deniers? What
> colour is the air up there?
> 
> Does this jog your memory, Mr. Knoll?
> 
>    "How can you contemn this man for asking a funny question? It would be
>    different if he is able to say what he wants but likes to censor
>    everybody else like you people do." (Knoll, 354F60E2.8DBE5EB9@istar.ca)

What I am saying here that he is denied to distribute his propaganda
through the media and asking for fairness to censor you people too.
With other words if he were able to publish and would ask the courts to
stop you, than he would be a hypocrite. He is asking for a level playing
field.

Perhaps you guy’s has a new meaning now. What do you expect me to say.
You are an innocent bystander who hears nothing sees nothing and knows
nothing. Fact is that you are the foreskin for a big organization. So
lets not fool around with words. If you do not like it tough luck to
you.
> 
> As I do not represent anyone, Mr. Knoll, or belong to any
> organization, those remarks are clearly aimly solely at me.
> 
> Explain this one, Mr. Knoll:
> 
>    "I never said that MacKay is blackmailing me or anybody else. What
>    I said that this holocaust affair is used to blackmail people by
>    censoring free speech." (Knoll, 6guo2c$42r@news.inforamp.net)
> 
> Or this gem:
> 
>    "That is indeed a disgrace. Now shouldn’t there be a law against
>    your group for promoting hate against Germans? You action of the last
>    50 years have been less that honorable and more like a business
>    venture in extortion and blackmail using the holocaust as an excuse."
> 
> Please tell me how I have promoted hate against Germans, Mr. Knoll, or
> how Nizkor has. Then explain your charge of extortion and blackmail.
> Take lots of time.

Live with it. You are part of the problem, not the solution by saying,
oh I got not with this to do. Read up in a book what this words
blackmail and extortion means and read the news what happen lately. Does
the name  Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Los Angeles Wiesenthal Center mean
anything to you? He is after Swizerland and 9 other countries.

Switzerland, already bending backward with memorial fund and such, Hier
stated is still not enough. What does not enough mean to you???? You are
all for it to protect the memory if the holocaust victims from being
belittled and are trying to tell me that this propaganda war you people
are having has  no impact on Germany or the German people?? On this one
I am lying again if it suit’

Are you trying to tell me that your work has no impact whatsoever? What
the hell are you than good for

People who were nobodies in concentration camps were put on trial after
the second word war. This people had a lesser roll to play that you in
this propaganda war. By the way that is a fact and not another lie.

> 
> In reading through your work, I ran across this rather revealing
> question:
> 
>    "BTW. Why don't you have a link to Zundels web side when you are so
>    interested about what Zundel is doing? Oh I got it; it is against the
>    law for him to spread his gospel?"
> 
> That's the sort of nonsense that makes folks laugh at you, Mr. Knoll.
> The reason that they laugh is that there are links to Zundel's website
> on Nizkor, and have been since Zundel hit the web - they were there,
> in fact, long before Mr. Zundel linked to Nizkor... links Zundel had
> removed from the "Zundelsite," when those links began to embarrass
> him. Nizkor's links, however, are still there. So you see, Mr. Knoll,
> you really should take your foot out of your mouth and quit talking
> about things of which you are ignorant.

Are you trying to tell me that you are supplying a link to Zundel’s own
web site? Or is it a link to your site with some of Zundel’s quotes?
Remember what the asked the guy in Oliver who had a link. If like you
say that Zundel had this links removed, than you do not have a real link

> 
> [I talk about friends who would keep Nizkor going if I quit]
> 
> >And your friend have no influence on you live what so ever because are
> >like mountain of truth high above everybody else? Lets talk about
> >censorship a little later on.
> 
> My friends have influence, Mr. Knoll, but that does not extend to
> falsifying data, as you have. I note with great interest, for
> instance, your use of the _unattributed_ Goldhagen snippet from the
> Collins' speech - See DejaNews URL
> http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=349861217.1&CONTEXT=894644174.1051066840&hitnum=127 for proof of this. You did not credit Slepokura. You did not
> credit Collins.

That is true. Like I said at the beginning this was not a quote but my
own interpretation.
> 
> You plagarized Collins' work and presented it as your own. That was on
> May 3, Mr. Knoll, and I think that's quite interesting, what with all
> your squirming about how you had attributed it... shame on you, sir.

Why are you so worried about this if you did not like the reverence to
Goldhagen in the first place. The Indians have a saying for guy’s like
You. White man speak wit forget tongue. 
> 
> >> Those good friends in Toronto have done an amazing amount of systems
> >> work on multiple UNIX platforms for multiple years. With very rare
> >> exceptions, these folks never get paid. Teamwork.
> 
> >It only proves that this people are dedicated to a cause and does not
> >mean that because of this are outstanding people.
> 
> It means Nizkor does not depend upon some shadowy organization, Mr.
> Knoll. There goes another of your racist stereotypes, down that
> manhole cover of yours.

> >> Good friends all over the world, Mr. Knoll. I've never indicated
> >> otherwise. I have, however, made one thing very clear - I speak for
> >> Nizkor, because no-one else can. I started this "show," Mr. Knoll, and
> >> I've kept it going - and growing - for over six years. Call it
> >> whatever you wish, but try and get that crap about me being under
> >> someone else's control out of your head - it only serves to make you
> >> look rather strange, particularly with the folks who know me, and they
> >> are the ones that really count.
> 
> >Sure? No influence what so ever in your decision making RIGHT?
> 
> Little to none, Mr. Knoll - ask Sol Littman how much influence he has
> with me, and with Nizkor. Ask Bernie Farber or Karen Mock. Take your
> time. Do I listen to my friends? Sure I do -I value their opinions,
> and that's one reason they became friends. They don't lie about me,
> Mr. Knoll, like you do, either.
> 
> >> >> I am not, however, beholden to any of them. Sol Littman behaves very
> >> >> badly when he talks about me - he writes rather naughty letters to
> >> >> others, perhaps in the hope that I will shut up and go away. As I
> >> >> said, it is also clear that I am beholden to no-one.
> 
> >I have been watching acting before and this quit a show. Mind you, I
> >could be lying on this so call me a liar for this.
> 
> You are indeed lying again, Mr. Knoll, but, at this late stage of your
> disintegration, that is not a surprise to anyone. Real "The
> Gatekeeper," from the book "Fuzzy Logic" and see if you can comprehend
> how silly you are making yourself look.

Not a show hey? always the truth and nothing put the truth. :-D
> 
> >> >Are you telling me that Littman does not know when to act?
> >>
> >> If you want to know something about what Mr. Littman knows or does not
> >> know, ask Mr. Littman. He is, I assure you, quite capable of speaking
> >> for himself. If you think that Mr. Littman is pleased with my
> >> opposition to censoring Holocaust deniers and others blights, you
> >> haven't read my fan mail very well... you will find it under
> >> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/littman-sol.
> 
> >Sure and he is going than to spill it all out for me. I am lying again
> >on this one?
> 
> Yes.
I am waiting for your next revelation so I don’t have to tickle myself
>from  laughing. Can you start earlier? I am up by 5:00 Am every morning
and planing to take a holiday in September for some trip around the
world by see.

Werner Knoll
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power
to make you commit trocities."
Voltaire


From jmanson@nospam.visi.com Fri May  8 19:11:42 EDT 1998
Article: 228910 of can.politics
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From: jmanson@nospam.visi.com (Jim Manson)
Newsgroups: alt.support.attn-deficit
Subject: Re: herbs instead of ritalin HELP
Organization: Arkham Civic Boosters Assoc.
Message-ID: <35568c73.811179@news.visi.com>
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"J. A. Shook"  wrote:

>John Palmer wrote:
>
>I don't know about the preservatives and such, but I can attest to the
>fact that when I went on a low carb diet (absolutely NO refined carbs,
>sugar, bread, starches,etc) I noticed a drastic improvement in my own
>attention span, so much so that I couldn't tell a difference when I took
>my Ritalin.....  Note that this wasn't an ultra low carb diet, like
>Atkins, but merely an elimination of refined carbs, complex carbs
>(veggies, etc) were still cool.  I'm not advocating anything here, this
>is just a personal observation from my own experience.
>J. Shook

Interesting. Did you ever go back to carbs after that? If so did it
change things back?




From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:44 EDT 1998
Article: 228911 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <354E9E3B.3E8B02B4@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: bc.general,van.general,bc.politics,can.politics
Subject: Re: NDP: pls resign, NOW
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Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >The realities of economics are such that it was these "bloodsucker unions"
> >that in fact saved capitalism's ass. If it wasn't for the unions your beloved
> >corporations would still have everyone working 12-hour days for just enough
> >pay to keep them and their families barely alive. You may think that it would
> >not be such a bad idea, but unfortunately there is a limit of abuse even
> >poor people can take. So now you have to put up with the unions, which
> >are only trying to ensure that workers get their fair share of the wealth
> >they produce. Beats hanging from a lamp-post, if you ask me. Accidently,
> >communist considered trade-unionists their number one enemy, traitors of
> >the working class' interests. So all the right-wing whiners should just shut
> >up and show some gratitude and appreciation towards the unions, to whom they
> >own their very existance today.
> >Igor
> >
> 
> We have heard the same nonsense from the other leftists - the Nazis - how they
> "saved" the capitalism by enslaving everyone, including the business owners,
> the capitalists.
> We didn't buy that one either.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:45 EDT 1998
Article: 228916 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <354E9E18.2BA7A517@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
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Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >hurt though if the corporate apologist kept in check their rabid hatred
> >towards the workers, and instead of polarizing the society directed their
> >excessive passion against something really harmful, like poverty and pollu-
> >tion.
> 
> You can't just willy-nilly oscillate between "workers" and "unions". The terms
> are not interchangeable.
> Poverty is a disease perpetrated by welfare state. Pollution of a mind is the
> result of too heavy intake of hallucinogens like Marx et all.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:48 EDT 1998
Article: 228922 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <354EA167.AA9E16D5@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
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Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >Go and hold a Large Brick in each hand hit yourself on the Head
> >
> 
> I keep telling you, it didn't work for you. You gonna have to try something
> else, let me see it work, _then_ recommend it.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:49 EDT 1998
Article: 228926 of can.politics
Message-ID: <354EA15D.A4D7EA3A@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,bc.general,can.general
Subject: Re: DIVORCE LAW "HELL" FOR DADS (Canada)
References: <6h32ks$2vr$1@News.Dal.Ca>  <6h6qpt$jku$1@blksmth.spydernet.com> <353ad276.0@news.cadvision.com>  <9gZ5LkVD7Chf-pn2-MSX1rxDmOTDf@Tutor.Syst.UVic.CA>  <9gZ5LkVD7Chf-pn2-PH679d3ZBKdh@Tutor.Syst.UVic.CA> <3543f817.0@news.cadvision.com> <3545E24B.993A190D@istar.ca> <3546abc4.3003518@news.pathcom.com> <35469E19.5A34B62C@istar.ca> <3549697b.0@news.cadvision.com> <3549E18D.61E8F9E@istar.ca> <354e99e2.0@news.cadvision.com>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:228926 van.general:53928 bc.general:73222 can.general:117756

Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >> >My principals in general is live and let live or shall I say: "Do unto
> >> >others as you would have them do unto you"
> >> >
> >> >If he thinks to get away with harassing me, than he must be dreaming.
> >> >Many people tried this before and did not succeed.
> >> >
> >> >You see there is a way to solve this problem:
> >> >
> >> >Number one; I will continue to chase him around and make sure that he
> >> >found his master. It will be people like you, innocent bystanders who
> >> >will be most offended by this and it will be people like you who will
> >> >cry to stop it.
> >>
> >> You are not a master of your own life, sport; you couldn't become one of
> >> another.
> >
> >Never said I was and neither are you but I have the will and ability to
> >get you to pull your hairs out of your head. If you think for one moment
> >that I cannot get under your skin, think again.
> 
> Werner, you couldn't get under your own skin, if you tried.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:50 EDT 1998
Article: 228931 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.flora.ottawa.on.ca!nntp.magma.ca!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!news.idt.net!netnews.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354EA373.4888D89@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.atheism,talk.philosophy.humanism
Subject: Re: Prolifers kill Cop; Fetus Worshipers Jump with Joy
References: <35256719.F3422672@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <352b9ddd.14373268@news.ozemail.com.au> <35341372.C5653857@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>  <6h3551$ek7$1@news.on> <3539575b.4525060@news.islandnet.com> <353aba48.0@news.cadvision.com> <353cb9d9.4163205@news.ozemail.com.au> <353eac5e.0@news.cadvision.com> <353ed63e.2561866@news.ozemail.com.au> <6hql8u$m7e$1@news.on> <35441b43.284072@news.ozemail.com.au> <35495ac3.0@news.cadvision.com> <354c0caf.434951@news.ozemail.com.au> <354e9e2f.0@news.cadvision.com>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:228931 alt.atheism:450922 talk.philosophy.humanism:27474

Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >Err, no, pinhead. That's *infanticide* Dewek; something I'm also
> >against.
> 
> "..also"? I thought you were all for feticide? Losing that tenuous grip on
> reality again, are you?
> 
> >
> >> What other criteria have you developed for a "qualified human being"?
> >
> >I didn't develop the criteria, Dewek. But surely someone as marvelously
> >fucking intelligent as you'd have us believe can see the difference
> >between a born human being and the lump in a woman's lower abdomen, no?
> 
> Well, actually, no.
> 
> [and so on, and so forth; Stixie here is progressively losing his toehold on
> sanity, saaaaad, really].

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:50 EDT 1998
Article: 228932 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.flora.ottawa.on.ca!nntp.magma.ca!News.Ottawa.iSTAR.net!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354EA37C.58394AC6@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.atheism,talk.philosophy.humanism
Subject: Re: Prolifers kill Cop; Fetus Worshipers Jump with Joy
References: <35495ac3.0@news.cadvision.com> <354c0caf.434951@news.ozemail.com.au> <6ig60m$akd@yuggoth.ucsb.edu> <355e8579.22968975@news.ozemail.com.au> <354e9eae.0@news.cadvision.com>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:228932 alt.atheism:450923 talk.philosophy.humanism:27475

Derek Nalecki wrote:
> 

> >>The one on top of his head.  I hear that it can punch through three feet
> >>of solid steel.  ^_^
> 
> It does, though I usually use it to punch through bullshit like Stixies.
> 
> >
> >Does that mean if we tried to ram his head through *four* feet of solid
> >steel it'd splatter like a watermelon?
> 
> Hmmm. tried four feet of solid bullshit - yours; and it still worked.
> 
> >
> >Oo! Oo! Can we try?
> 
> We did, stupid.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:51 EDT 1998
Article: 228933 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.flora.ottawa.on.ca!nntp.magma.ca!News.Ottawa.iSTAR.net!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354EA384.41C7FD74@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.atheism,talk.philosophy.humanism
Subject: Re: Prolifers kill Cop; Fetus Worshipers Jump with Joy
References: <351cce7c.3310961@loomi.telstra.net> <3521e3b9.0@skyview.icrossroads.com> <6fu4t5$4ms@yuggoth.ucsb.edu> <35245204.1004800A@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <6g3qr0$keu@yuggoth.ucsb.edu> <35381512.5DEC7639@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <6ha6c5$8k7$2@news.iag.net> <353D0BF1.928FED62@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <353f653f.3656631@news.ozemail.com.au> <353eb0cd.0@news.cadvision.com> <35411986.991670@news.ozemail.com.au> <35442310.0@news.cadvision.com> <35516520.23075420@news.ozemail.com.au> <354e9f6a.0@news.cadvision.com>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:228933 alt.atheism:450924 talk.philosophy.humanism:27476

Derek Nalecki wrote:


> Nor brought you back to reality it seems.
> 
> >
> >>>Anyway, who said you could stop sucking my dick, bitch? Get back on your
> >>>knees, get my dick back in your mouth, and keep sucking. And make sure
> >>>you swallow, bitch, just like you do for your father - last time I shot
> >>>my load in your eyes and hair you didn't stop whining for weeks......
> >
> >>Oooh, I bet that prison talk really turns you on. Reminds you of the "good
> >>ol'days", doesn't it?
> >
> 
> and from the former queenie of Cell-Block 5:

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:53 EDT 1998
Article: 228934 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.flora.ottawa.on.ca!nntp.magma.ca!News.Ottawa.iSTAR.net!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354EA57B.6042F368@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.atheism,talk.philosophy.humanism
Subject: Re: Prolifers kill Cop; Fetus Worshipers Jump with Joy
References: <6g3qr0$keu@yuggoth.ucsb.edu> <35381512.5DEC7639@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <6ha6c5$8k7$2@news.iag.net> <353D0BF1.928FED62@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <6hkmfo$93m$1@news.iag.net> <353E45F1.A9630F4B@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <6hm7sj$h53$1@news.iag.net> <3542199b.1013421@news.ozemail.com.au> <353ffec0.0@skyview.icrossroads.com> <35432563.5262254@news.ozemail.com.au> <35405506.0@skyview.icrossroads.com> <35533d8f.29811861@news.ozemail.com.au> <35458834.0@skyview.icrossroads.com> <354c143c.11495802@news.ozemail.com.au> <354ea198.0@news.cadvision.com>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:228934 alt.atheism:450925 talk.philosophy.humanism:27477

Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >>Strange really, since you're the master of equivocation.
> >
> >Yet another empty claim.
> >
> >Find another sucker, Patrick; the victory is mine........
> >
> 
> Funny how every piece-of-shit loser makes sure he claims it... just in case no
> one else actually noticed this "victory".

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From samir@outrage.com Fri May  8 19:11:53 EDT 1998
Article: 228935 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!feeder1.wwnet.net!nntp.abs.net!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!usenet	
From: Samir Sinha 
Newsgroups: alt.games.descent
Subject: Re: Descent Cutscenes
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:55:03 -0400
Organization: PSINet
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <35538D46.82652F5F@outrage.com>
References: <6ivmhl$j68@eri.erinet.com> <35538504.142219187@192.48.96.24>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.243.217.25
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I)
Xref: trends.ca alt.games.descent:63884



Adam Pletcher wrote:

> >P.S.  Ne1 know what format D3 cutscenes will be in... Outrage care to
> >comment?
>
> I'm 99% sure they will use the updated version of the MVE format used
> in D2.

Yes this is correct.

Samir Sinha
Outrage Entertainment



From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:55 EDT 1998
Article: 228946 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.flora.ottawa.on.ca!news.davin.ottawa.on.ca!news21.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354EA572.522BC5F2@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Welfare, the perpetual handout
References: <891398492.6627snx@thwap.nl2k.ab.ca> <35242E4B.59BFCFCD@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> <3525db2e.0@news.vphos.net> <3529cf14.0@news.cadvision.com> <352efbe7.0@news.vphos.net> <352F1190.B2F60428@coastnet.com> <35316134.0@news.cadvision.com> <3531a7e9.0@news.vphos.net> <35389bd6.13056825@news.mortimer.com>  <3538B9DE.5A9F@domiz.com> <6hqlvr$30v@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <35417866.0@news.vphos.net> <3542c5bd.2477776@news.ptbo.igs.net> <6id185$pli@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <354ae4b7.0@news.vphos.net> <354ea284.0@news.cadvision.com>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:228946

Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >>That's the problem with you NDP types-you equate work with slavery.
> >
> >Let's just get back to the original conundrum:  in a job-short market,
> >where are you going to find enough jobs to get everyone off welfare?
> >
> 
> Let's answer it again, since you are obviously incapable of retaining it for
> more than a day.
> The government which makes regulations and imposes confiscatory taxation which
> are pricing the jobs out of the market, exempts itself from both; thus
> providing those jobs.
> Anything else, that would be obvious to a ten year old, you need explained to
> you one sentence at a time?

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:56 EDT 1998
Article: 228960 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.flora.ottawa.on.ca!nntp.magma.ca!news.davin.ottawa.on.ca!news21.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354EB638.AC8C8875@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Wal-Mart employees trying to dump union
References: <35401013.2629149@news.uniserve.com> <35420A81.A6350669@istar.ca> <3544127e.0@news.cadvision.com> <3544D237.38DBBCBA@istar.ca> <3549754c.0@news.cadvision.com> <3549E153.7B652FA8@istar.ca> <6icojg$kt5@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <354A01BA.DF69DFF6@istar.ca> <354a1269.30713847@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <354A2F6F.99D19360@istar.ca> <354e916d.1806922@news.uniserve.com>
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Sheldon Scott wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll  wrote:
> >Looking at Wall Mart and how in such a short time the were
> >able to change most of their employees mind so they can decertify
> >the union without putting pressure on, seems to me like a miracle.
> >
> 107 employees voted to decertify, out of 191.  This after the first
> vote went 151 - 43 against unionization.  So, apparently, wal-mart was
> only able to convince 44 employees to keep their union
> (151 minus 107).  Truly a miracle  :-)

Do you thing that this people voted with their stomach? I do

You see there is a chance that management is celebrating this as a
victory. When this victory celebration is over and sober thought’s come
in, chances are that some of this management people are starting to feel
all rotten inside.

Yes the will say the won but in return they lost their dignity. Ops
forgot. Chances are they never had any dignity in the first place to
speak off.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:58 EDT 1998
Article: 229051 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354F60E2.8DBE5EB9@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:  <354E2606.61D67646@istar.ca> <6ilcni$m2l$1@news.trends.ca> <354E6E3F.F3C0ACEC@istar.ca> <6im88j$28o$1@news.trends.ca>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:229051 van.general:53974 can.general:117789 bc.general:73271 ab.general:58676

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> >That seems rather strange? Ernest Zundel likes to tell his story and
> >being censored asking the government to censor you people?
> 
> Mr. Knoll, does this mean that you will not condemn his attempts to
> censor information he does not like? Please address this question.

What does the word seems rather strange mean to you? It is obvious that
I do not approve of any kind of censorship.

How can you contemn this man for asking a funny question? It would be
different if he is able to say what he wants but likes to censor
everybody else like you people do.

> 
> Having done so, please tell me who "you people" refers to in the
> sentence above.
> 
> >If I were him, I would asked the government for a level playing field.
> 
> But he did not - he asked for censorship.

Perhaps he was denied the opportunity to represent his side on the
Internet. As a result of this, he may have said OK censor the others
too???

> 
> >Could it be possible there is no level playing field here at all and he
> >is Blackmailed by you people? When will he get the next parcel with
> >razor blades?
> 
> Who is this "you people," Mr. Knoll? Do you have evidence that he
> received a parcel of razor blades? Was this in the paper somewhere? If
> so, please explain whether you are asking _me_ this question (god
> knows why you'd ask me, but there's no accounting for some...) and if,
> by "you people" you mean some other bunch, tell me why you are asking
> me to speak for them, and why you feel that I can.
> 
Vancouver Province Sunday March 29, 1998
Trio charged in connection with razor blades in mail.
Darren Nathan Barbarash age 28 and Rebecca Rubin age 23 are charged with
possession of explosive.

Police began a probe in 1995 after Toronto Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel
received a mouse trap rigged with razor blades in the mail.

Could it be that the purpose of your organization is to incite hatred
against people like Zundel

BTW. Why don’t you have a link to Zundels web side when you are so
interested about what Zundel is doing? Oh I got it; it is against the
law for him to spread his gospel?
Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:59 EDT 1998
Article: 229053 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <354F60EC.EBAB8285@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
References:  <354CFADC.83406DD5@istar.ca> <6ilcec$m07$1@news.trends.ca> <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca> <6im7tt$23n$1@news.trends.ca> <6in8gc$5bk$1@hub.org>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:229053

Grant Fischer wrote:
> 
> In can.politics Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote:
> : In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [Big snip, follow-ups trimmed]
> 
> For those interested, there is a collection of views and discussion
> of Goldhagen's book at:
> 
> http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~german/discuss/goldhagen/
> 
> --
> 
> Grant Fischer                   (E-mail: user gfischer at the domain hub.org)


I am in no position to say if Goldhagen is lying or not. What burn’s  my
ass is people on the left or on the right are saying that only the
author who writes what the like to hear is telling the truth.

I have a printout from
soc.culture,de.soc.politik,de.soc.politik.deutschland which addresses
this issue.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:11:59 EDT 1998
Article: 229058 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
> >you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
> >Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
> >not making assumptions on this subject.
> 
> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> 
> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> 
> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> 
> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> him to document that comment.

Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
your task to find out!
> 
> As to the rest of the questions, pick #1, or #2 above.
> 
> >Perhaps you should find out about a Norman Finkelstein whose parents
> >were in Warsaw and in Ausschwitz. He said that Goldhagens book is a
> >disgrace and distortion of the truth. Do not take my word for it. It
> >cannot be true because I picked it off the German news groups.
> 
> What Mr. Finkelstein thinks about Goldhagen's book is of no interest
> to me - nor is it relevant to the discussion. The topic of that
> discussion was whether or not the book contained a blanket condemnation
> of the German people. Goldhagen's scholarship, and some of his
> conclusions, have been under academic attack since the book was
> published. (Contrary to what you seem to believe, I am not defending
> Goldhagen, although I believe he proved his thesis, albeit in somewhat
> sloppy fashion.)
> 
> >Nowhere did I  say that I read this book.
> 
> Correct. What you did, however, was repeat something you had read
> without verifying the information first. Had you done so - read
> Goldhagen, for instance, or checked the archives here, you would have
> quickly discovered that Doug Collins is no stranger to printing lies.
> If you'd like to discuss that, fine, but it's another topic, eh?

Does this now mean that news papers, radio, TV cannot be trusted? You
and cannot quote anything what is going on around us because it could
not be true? Amazing. 

Newspaper clipping in the Vancouver Province tells me that Collins won
his rights skirmish. It also says that his column was nasty but didn’t
violate the code.

It also say’s that the Canadian Jewish Congress filed a case and desist
order. Fact is that you people were trying to censor him because he was
talking about your holocaust industry.

> 
> >The other problem I have with you that you are posting articles about
> >the holocaust and like people to believe that everything you say is
> >true? Perhaps it is the wrong impression I am getting here? Are you
> >asking me not to believe what come along the way of the Internet because
> >it cannot be trusted? If that is the case that people should think
> >twice to visit your web site??
> 
> I do not demand that you accept everything I say as true, nor have I
> ever. I try my best to document my assertions, so that you can check
> my source and make up your own mind.
> 
> >What kind of a society we have today when people like you ask other
> >people not to believe anybody else and only you??
> 
> That sure would stink, Mr. Knoll. Fortunately, I don't do that, so the
> question is rhetorical.
> 
> >> But Mr. Knoll does not have a problem attributing statements to Daniel
> >> Goldhagen that he has never made. Interesting, that.
> 
> [Mr. Knoll declined comment]
> 
> >> >I know that you are an adult and realize that in this propaganda war
> >> >innocent people will always get hurt. You may say that to blame all the
> >> >Jews for killing Jesus is going overboard but what you people are doing
> 
> >> Do you blame Jews for killing Jesus, Mr. Knoll? I would find it
> >> strange, of course, but not unusual. The Catholic Church, however,
> >> disagrees, and it's clear they know something Mr. Knoll does not: That
> >> the Romans killed the man.
> >
> >Why should I have a problem with that? I am not a religious person. I am
> >only saying that for hundred of years Jews were persecuted because
> >Christians believed that the Jews were instrumental to get Jesus killed.
> >Another twisting around of words by you.
> 
> I will give you benefit of the doubt and accept your explanation of
> your intent. I apologise for the misinterpretation. Having said that,
> I must agree with you: Blaming all the Jews for killing Jesus is
> stupid and wrong. I have not, however, blamed all the Germans for the
> Holocaust. Neither, by the way, does Daniel Goldhagen.
> 
> Since neither I nor Goldhagen do or say the things you attribute to
> us, your comparision is meaningless.
> 
> >> >is exactly the same. After 1945 many people in Germany were made aware
> >> >what happened in this concentration camps and I am sure that all the
> >> >people I have know at this time did feel ashamed of this. There comes a
> >> >time when people start saying enough is enough and if this will not stop
> >> >and apparently it does not, this people will say this has to stop and
> >> >get angry.
> 
> >> Mr. Knoll suggests that if a historical fact makes him uncomfortable,
> >> it should be suppressed. Interesting mindset, I concede.
> 
> >Another distortion again.
> 
> Really? You suggested that Germans were all ashamed after the war, and
> that now they are angry because history is taught. I don't see any
> other way to interpret your remark.

It is the way it is done What you people are doing here is constantly
crying to get things your way. I f you were a child in a family who need
constant attention, I would not be surprised if your father comes along
and give you a smack in you behind.

> 
> >What I said it is your continues effort to give the same medication even
> >when the patient is healed.
> 
> Some patients, Mr. Knoll, are not healed. Witness the antisemitic
> assault on the net, and the denial of the Holocaust.

That is true. Take a look how some people are trying to fault immigrants
and racial minorities for everything what is wrong today. Looks like
Germany in the past were the Jews were the easy targed.
> 
> >Well here we go. The Nazis used the word LYING in connection with Jews
> >every time. Boy you have learned very fast to use this tactics have you?
> 
> Please document my lies, Mr. Knoll. Tell me where I have lied - A
> DejaNews reference would be useful.

It was this statement below I made when you accused me of lying. What I
am saying that you people are accusing others of lying and pointed out
that the Nazis were using the same words about the Jews.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 18:40:56 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
it is better to give you the whole story.

> 
> >You show me were I said that you in person would like to censor
> >holocaust deniers what I said that the people you represent have done
> >this by using laws who work in their favor.
> 
> You do such things continually, Mr. Knoll, with your sweeping
> generalites about censorship. Have you forgotten what you wrote so
> quickly, then?

 Surely, you do work for an organization and can hardly claim to be
neutral and only a one man show?

Was Sol Littman and B’Nai Brith instrumental for shutting down the
Oliver service supplier? Was  this action taken to censor him? 

> 
> >You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
> >about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
> >it is better to give you the whole story.
> 
> Sir, You have not yet, in this entire thread, quoted Goldhagen. Not
> once. Neither did Mr. Collins, neither did Mr. Slepokura.
> 
> Get used to it.

So what is your point Are you trying to tell me that Goldhagen never
wrote this book even when others say  he did. because the did not quote
him? Really!

> 
> [Doug Collins via Slepokura, offers us, in Mr. Slepokua's words,
> "as a censorship-busting exercise in free speech. "]
> 
> [Collins is opposed to Canada's anti-hate laws. So am I.]
> 
> [Collins says naughty things about Sol Littman. Mr. Littman says
> naughty things about me. Yawn.]
> 
> >It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
> >propaganda
> >put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
> >button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
> >used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
> 
> Gee, is Mr. Collins suggesting that the boneheads in Oliver, wearing
> their swastikas, were not "neo-nazis?" Racial supremacits.... Marc
> Lemire, for instance? Interesting view he has from whatever planet
> he's on.

Well next thing you going to be scare of news papers because some of the
stuff they write could hurt your feeling. I id not see on the news any
neo nazi’s living in Oliver.
> 
> >rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
> 
> What issues might those be, Mr. Collins?
> 
> [Collins complains we aren't Americans]
> 
> >a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be fired from their
> >jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, too, an author like
> >David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner speech about free
> >speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an immigration pretext -
> >while
> 
> David Irving was arrested because he lied upon entry. After his
> arrest, he lied under oath once again before the Canadian Immigration
> Adjudicator. You'd think a straight-shooter like Collins would at
> least be able to dig up some facts, eh, Mr. Knoll?
> 
> Here's the URL - you might want to tell Mr. Collins about it:
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/canada/iat-index.html
> 
> The jist of the Adudicator's report, however, sums it up:
> 
> "When viewed as a whole this evidence can lead to only one conclusion;
> the event was a total fabrication and never took place.
> I can only speculate that you and your supporters concocted your story
> to garner further publicity and prolong your stay
> in Canada, both of which you have done with some success.
>  That being the case I find that the action
> taken by Canadian Immigration authorities at Niagara Falls on November
> 1, 1992 was based on facts that at the time appeared
> indisputable and have now been found to have been valid, namely that
> you were at the time of your attempted entry to the United
> States on November 1, 1992 a person to whom a departure notice had
> been issued but who had not been granted lawful permission
> to be in the United States."
> 
> Funny Doug didn't mention it....
> 
> >many killers and crooks of all kinds are allowed to remain here and
> >while
> >Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by shootings. That's something else
> >the people of Oliver might think about when they sign petitions asking
> >the
> >Attorney General in effect to go after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet
> >service. But once again, let's not blame them. They are victims of a
> >massive propaganda campaign. That's what I was getting at when I wrote
> >that famous or infamous column on Hollywood Propaganda.
> 
> Mr. Collins told some real whoppers in that column, to be certain...
> claiming, for instance, that the International Red Cross had produced
> a report which, in fact, it had not produced.
> 
> [Collins objects to "Publishing False News" statute. So the the
> Supreme Court of Canada. Yawn.]
> 
> >But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
> >human
> >rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's called
> >now,
> >is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The Littmans think
> >it's
> >wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't they!.
> 
> Mr. Collins would rather citizens be left with no-where to turn...
> yessir, his brand of free speech does not include the right to be free
> from......
> 
> [Mr. Collins complains about BCHRC hearing, neglecting to mention that
> the hearing found his article was antisemitic but not hateful.]
> 
> >the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate about hate literature. How would
> >you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead and you
> >were
> >reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask
> >yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German, being told by
> >Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that Germans have a
> >pathological hatred of Jews? That's what he did in his book Hitler's
> >Willing Executioners. Isn't that hate literature? But there's not much
> 
> Mr. Knoll, please note that Mr. Collins did not quote Dr. Goldhagen.
> He made a false claim, but he did not quote. He could not have done
> so, because no such statement is to be found in the book.

Fact is that he mentioned Goldhagen and his book. It make no difference
wherever he was using a quote to prove his point. In all likelihood he
used his own interpretation to get a point across. 

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:01 EDT 1998
Article: 229082 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
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Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> > ...
> > I have a Paperback Book in my possession. I am talking about the book "
> > Other Losses" I had this book first from the library. This book was
> > reprinted in October 1989, February 1990 and May 1991. ISBN:
> > 0-7736-7309-1
> > There are many changes from the original I read in the library. As a
> > matter of fact the one I do have now is a revised edition. I am sure you
> > know what revised means.
> >
> > Mister Doug Collins Is a world War II veteran. He was taken Prisoner by
> > the Germans and liberated by the allies. He saw Bergen Belsen. Worked as
> > a political intelligence officer and the de Nazification program. There
> > is absolutely no question in my mind that that he is telling the truth.
> >
> > This man today, is hounded because he is say what some people do not
> > like to hear. With other words he is political not correct.
> 
> Werner: are you talking about Goldhagen's book, or is "Other Losses" by
> Doug Collins?  I am getting a little bit confused here.
> 
> If Collin's book is about the denazification program, I have no doubt
> that he has lots of material about injustice,  This doesn't change
> anything about the subject under discussion.  The fact that a lot of
> what was going on in Germany after WW2 was victors' revenge disguised as
> justice doesn't change the fact that bringing up events that happened
> under the Nazi regime in Germany does not constitute hatemongering

McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
revisions have been made to it.

I am sure that you and I do not support any group or person who are out
to make somebody’s live difficult because the have a different religion,
culture or color.

For me because I belong to a different culture group and experienced
hate against myselfe on account of this, It is very important to stamp
out hatred in any form.
Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:02 EDT 1998
Article: 229084 of can.politics
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Subject: Re: Racist Karl Marx Used "Nigger" Word
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pbucciol wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote in message <354E9E32.48736F6E@istar.ca>...
> >Derek Nalecki wrote:
> >
> >
> >> >would end up unable to listen to anybody and be cut off from all company
> and
> >> >all learning.
> >>
> >> If that's learning, we need a new curriculum.
> >
> >Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
> >instant expert.
> >
> >Werner Knoll
> >
> >If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
> 
> Yo Werner...give it a rest will you?

Perhaps I should. I am getting behind in cutting my grass. You think
there is going to be a wedding at the end. I hope he is not tall and
ugly. I could always use a step stool.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:02 EDT 1998
Article: 229091 of can.politics
Message-ID: <354FA176.258EBAB6@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Organization: The Knoll's
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Subject: Re: Wal-Mart employees trying to dump union
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siber@donotemail.sympatico.ca wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 04 May 1998 03:37:06 GMT, naleckid@rescorporate.com (Derek
> Nalecki) wrote:
> 
> >In article <3549E17F.340D21A6@istar.ca>, werk@istar.ca wrote:
> >>Derek Nalecki wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <3548A1BF.4C60C24E@istar.ca>, werk@istar.ca wrote:
> >>> >rightofright@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Good point. In the fifties  I worked in an Aluminum Smelter. The job in
> >>> >> > the Aluminum reduction was so filthy and very dangerous that the company
> >>> >> > at the beginning had a hard time to retain workers. In the time from
> >>> >> > 1954 to 1963 the position in the potlines were mostly by immigrants who
> >>> >> > could not afford to quit. We were working under such intense heat 120
> >>> >> > deg. Fahrenheit room temperature and many many time working less than5
> >>> >> > feet away from molten Aluminum. The heat was so intense that it burned
> >>> >> > our exposed skin. We had to wear heavy woolen clothing to shield from
> >>> >> > the
> >>> >> > heat and absorb moister from our body. Water fountains everywhere + salt
> >>> >> > tablets to take in order to retain water in our body. Killing an anode
> >>> >> > effect, time approx. 5 minutes could bring you to a blackout. To get
> >>> >> > fresh air, we took off our facemask and lay over the floor vent to grasp
> >>> >> > for air.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Our work clothing was wet from the beginning of the shift to the end. We
> >>> >> > had a drying locker to store our work clothing at the end of the shift.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Management at the beginning consisted mainly of people who could speak
> >>> >> > better English than us. This management people at the beginning could
> >>> >> > not care less if we dropped death.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > It was MY UNION who fought for a save work environment and rest periods
> >>> >> > to survive.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Werner Knoll
> >>> >> > "If any man tells you he loves America, yet hates labor, he is a liar.
> >>> >> > If any man tells you he trusts America, yet fears labor, he is a fool."
> >>> >> > Abraham Lincoln
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> Werner:
> 
> Don't forget, Old Abe never met Jimmy Hoffa.
> "A Society Of Sheep Must In Time
> Beget A Government Of Wolves"
> 
>                      Bertrand de Jouvenal

If Abe would have met Jimmy, he probably would have thought that he was
a nice guy. Jimmy would be the one in sheep’s clothing.

No wonder we have Wolves in sheep clothing sitting in government. Just
look at this news group and how many people are sitting on their
computers at home and are afraid to contribute anything.

This are the same people who complain after any elections that their
voice is not heard. If you like to see changes to government do not wait
till after the election.

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:04 EDT 1998
Article: 229137 of can.politics
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> >Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> >could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
> >I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
> >revisions have been made to it.
> 
> No, sir, I am not. I am saying that you published a false description
> of Goldhagen's thesis, and did so in support of your "We Germans are
> so hard done by" routine.

Really? Feeling good twisting things around? Telling me your statements
are correct and others fabricate things?
> 
> Since the statement was false, and did not reflect Goldhagen's thesis
> (He most certainly does _not_ blame all Germans for the Holocaust!), I
> pointed it out to you.

Again your word against Collins word. If I believe you, I have to
believe Collins too. By the way Collins has earned his respect, have
you?
> 
> You then changed the subject, and began waving Bacque around. Let's
> not play Smoke and Mirrors here, Mr. Knoll.

That statement shows that you are not able to put your facts together or
by design ignore some of the statements I made. Let me repeat.

You informed my that you could find nowhere in Goldhagens book any
reverence to Collins statement. In return I gave a explanation that your
statement can be true because books are under constant revision. As an
example I gave a explanation what can happen by using Other losses as an
example Here is my quote again.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:33:20 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7



McVay could be telling the truth when he says that he cannot find this
quote in his book. Let me explain to you.
I have a Paperback Book in my possession. I am talking about the book "
Other Losses" I had this book first from the library. This book was
reprinted in October 1989, February 1990 and May 1991. ISBN:
0-7736-7309-1
There are many changes from the original I read in the library. As a
matter of fact the one I do have now is a revised edition. I am sure you
know what revised means.

This statement says it all. I am sure other people here reading your
posting will see what you are up too!

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:09 EDT 1998
Article: 229138 of can.politics
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:  <354E8839.9DECB02B@istar.ca> <6inhrs$ao8$1@news.trends.ca> <354F6C21.3851176A@istar.ca> <6iocea$i5n$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F6C21.3851176A@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> No, Sir, I accuse you of misrepresenting Dr. Goldhagen's words, which,
> >> clearly, you did. Whether it was deliberate or not, I do not know, but
> >> there is no doubt that you did so.
> 
> >How could I have done this? All I did quote a statement by Mister
> >Collins?
> 
> in a context of "Woe is me, I'm German, and everybody hates me," you
> clearly published this information to underscore your point. That you
> did not bother to validate or verify your information suggests that
> you believed it to be accurate. You quoted a lie, and you did not
> bother to check for yourself - either because, as noted, you believed
> Collins a credible source--a leap in its own right--or because you
> knew he was not representing the book accurately or honestly and did
> not care.

Perhaps you quote a lie every day and expect people to believe you?
Nowhere I said that everybody hates my Perhaps you feel that everybody
hates you? Why should I go and  verify information like this? Open your
eyes and have a look. This is a news group where people discuss the pro
and cons of any subject: You expect people to go to your web side  for
the same reason like many others to listen to your point of view. You
can convert some but not all.

It is your tactics to achieve your goal that are highly suspect.

> 
> Now. Which was it? Did you publish the misrepresentation believing it
> to be true, to be false, or of no importance either way? After all,
> you're the man who tried to convince us the whole world detested
> Germans, and you're the one that offered the misrepresentation.

You must be a real clown when you thing for one moment to get away with
your nonsense. You are trying to convince people that I am publishing
false news on purpose. In this your way to twist thing around.

I hope you go ahead with your style so people can really see what you
are. I am looking forward to your next response so you have a chance to
expose yourself and your supporters so people can see what tactics you
are using to suppress people with a different view.

Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
the get harder."

Go back to your bosses for more instructions before you make your next
move. I am waiting. I do know how to handle riffraff like you any day

> 
> >> I don't work for the chaps... Mr. Littman is hardly a fan :-) Mr.
> >> Matas and I often disagree with respect to Internet issues, but I
> >> don't work for him. (More misinformation from Mr. Knoll. What a
> >> surprise.)
> 
> > Perhaps you should talk to Raif Mair? A talk show host about
> >neutrality. He will tell you like me that it makes no difference how
> >honest you are. What counts is how the public is looking at it.
> 

Where did I say that I lied? Or encouraged you to lie?

> 
> >> >Now part of my previous posting you would not read the proper way.
> 
> >> [Mr. Knoll once again repeats a misrepresentation of Goldhagen's book,
> >> and fails to support his allegation that I wish to censor Holocaust
> >> deniers.]
> 
> >Welcome to the real world. We all are in the eyes of the public guilty
> >be association. The impression I am getting very often that you can be
> >the best person in this world and just because your ancestors done
> >something wrong, you are automatically guilty. Now you know how it
> >feels.
> 
> Mr. Knoll cannot document my alleged desire to "censor revisionists,"
> so he changes to "I am so hard done by..." and hopes we won't notice.


> 
> Mr. Knoll, you have lied about me. That's fine - lots of folks
> entertain themselves that way, and I'm used to it. I take it as my
> duty, however, to point out that you have lied - for the record, so to
> speak.

Grow up for once in your live and be honest with yourself  A record in
your twisted mind? Perhaps you can point out to my where I said that you
are lying? It would be very interesting. I can check back till 1997 in
my records.

> 
> Your avoidance, Mr. Knoll, does not oscure the reality that
> you are completely incapable of sustaining your lie. Not only have I
> never called for censorship of Holocaust deniers, on or off the net, I
> have actively campaigned against such censorship. I have done so in
> Parliament, in the press, and on national television.
> 
> As to why you chose to lie about this, I will not speculate. That you
> did so is clear.

You know something BOY? It took me another 20 minutes to find my quote
of which you said that I said that you are lying. Here it is Look way
down. You see the words:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:56:21 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
> >you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
> >Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
> >not making assumptions on this subject.
> 
> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> 
> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> 
> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> 
> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> him to document that comment.

Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
your task to find out!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To tell you the truth. You are not a worthy person. Actually you stink.
Next time you pull a stunt like this, let me know that I can pinch my
nose. Good by.

Werner Knoll
The very ink with which all history is written is merely fluid
prejudice.
Mark Twain


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:11 EDT 1998
Article: 229139 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <354FF66F.C4FD852D@istar.ca>
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Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> > ...
> > > Werner: are you talking about Goldhagen's book, or is "Other Losses" by
> > > Doug Collins?  I am getting a little bit confused here.
> > >
> > > If Collin's book is about the denazification program, I have no doubt
> > > that he has lots of material about injustice,  This doesn't change
> > > anything about the subject under discussion.  The fact that a lot of
> > > what was going on in Germany after WW2 was victors' revenge disguised as
> > > justice doesn't change the fact that bringing up events that happened
> > > under the Nazi regime in Germany does not constitute hatemongering
> >
> > McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> > Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> 
> McVau said he could not find the satement in GOLDHAGEN's book (at least
> that's how I interpreted his bpost and I am pretty sure that's that what
> he meant).  If you read his post any other way I stronglu suspect that
> you didn't really rerad what you were replying to (i remember reading
> something like "I have Goldhagen's book in freont of me and I can't find
> what you quote";  I also seem to remember that in your post he was
> replying to you only mentioned Goldhagen, but not Collins)

That is true;

My response to a question by John Angus on:

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:12 EDT 1998
Article: 229208 of can.politics
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Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
References:  <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca> <6im7tt$23n$1@news.trends.ca> <354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca> <6ioi54$jf8$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> >>
> >> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
> >>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> >>
> >> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
> >>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> >>
> >> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> >> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> >> him to document that comment.
> 
> >Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
> >word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
> >people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
> >is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
> >your task to find out!
> 
> But I did _not_ ask you to simply take my word for it, Mr. Knoll. On
> the contrary, I offered you a perfect and polite opportunity to prove
> your case by citing Golghagen's book. You declined to do so. This is
> not about opinions, it is about what _is_ in the book and what is
> _not_ in the book.
> 
> If you say that Goldhagen said this - that he held all Germans
> responsible for the Holocaust - then it should be very simple to
> support this allegation with cold, black and white type.
> 
> I want to bring Collins "down," Mr. Knoll? He's been down for years. I
> simply point it out when he writes his little fibs.
> 
> My task is to challenge the assertion, so that people will understand
> that not only is the statement a misrepresentation, it could not have
> been made by anyone who read the book unless it was done after a
> deliberate decision to lie about what was said.
> 
> By the way, Mr. Knoll, I'm still waiting for you to tell me who the
> "you people" are you often mention during conversations with me. Do
> you suppose, now that we've established that Mr. Collin's journalistic
> credibility isn't quite what you suggest, we could get to that?

Really? You like to bring Collins down? Let me tell you boy Mister
Collins gets more credibility by the minute when you are writing like
this.

You people?
It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your own. So
why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so you can
answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!

Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence
people. Who are this people in your organization with so much power?

You know? You are giving Jewish people  bad name. The Jewish people I
met were smart decent people. You do not have this qualification.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:13 EDT 1998
Article: 229217 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <35509701.50F7F82@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Organization: The Knoll's
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Newsgroups: can.politics
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John Baglow wrote:
> 
> Dear Werner,
> 
> You are not doing well against Ken in your current exchange. (He isn't
> Jewish, btw, not that that is important, but it blows your "you people"
> theme out of the water.)
> 
> Now: all that is really at issue here is whether or not Goldhagen's book
> contains a sweeping attack on all Germans. It doesn't matter a damn what
> Doug Collins says it says. Why not get a copy of the book and check for
> yourself? If there are more than one edition of the book, I am sure they
> would be available at a public library.
> 
> Surely it is not asking too much to get you to find the offending quote,
> post the citation, and prove Ken a liar. Or, alternatively, not to find
> this mythical quote, and post an apology.
> 
> Stop getting so excited and defensive, and do your homework. It can't be
> that difficult.

I am glad you see it that way. Ken is doing a disservice to all good
Jewish people. Over the years I had contact with many Jews. I found that
this people were very well educated and had compassion for me.

Why? Because they were the victims of hatred not because the were doing
some wrong but because of the hate propaganda by the Nazis. Knowing
that, they could easily understand my feelings.

I guess you will understand that we all have feelings and we should not
try to suppress this feelings. I can understand that people who have
been wronged shall have the right and responsibility to let the whole
world know about it. What I am against is that people are using this as
a weapon.

In regard to Goldhagens book and Collins statement? I have no way of
knowing if Collins statement is true. It was not my intent to say; look
here that is what Goldhagen said, you better watch out and I do not have
the habit to read political book and did not say that Ken is lying when
he told me that there is no reverence in Goldhagens book about Collins
quote.

I could go the library put reading books I usually do this in the winter
time.
The funny part with books is that everybody reading books with the
exception of technical book has his own interpretation. This manifest
itself when you look at religion and the bible. There was suppose to be
only one book how come there are so many different sects.

I have a library of approx. 300 books. The majority of this books are of
technical nature. In addition I have hundreds of news paper clipping of
political events. Not only in regard to the holocaust but also of what
is going on the local, Provincial federal and world scene.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:18 EDT 1998
Article: 229241 of can.politics
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Ken McVay wrote:
> 
> In article <354FF663.412E8D4C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I had said]
> 
> >> in a context of "Woe is me, I'm German, and everybody hates me," you
> >> clearly published this information to underscore your point. That you
> >> did not bother to validate or verify your information suggests that
> >> you believed it to be accurate. You quoted a lie, and you did not
> >> bother to check for yourself - either because, as noted, you believed
> >> Collins a credible source--a leap in its own right--or because you
> >> knew he was not representing the book accurately or honestly and did
> >> not care.
> 
> >Perhaps you quote a lie every day and expect people to believe you?
> 
> Is that what you are hoping to accomplish here by repeating your
> misrepresentation of Goldhagen, Mr. Knoll?
> 
> >Nowhere I said that everybody hates my Perhaps you feel that everybody
> >hates you? Why should I go and  verify information like this? Open your
> 
> You quoted it, and did so because you believed it to be true. I
> pointed out that it is not true, and you do not seem interested in
> discovering whether or not I am correct. That's fine, except that you
> seem to want to avoid discussing why you now won't admit that you
> don't know what the hell Goldhagen had to say. Please note that Mr.
> Sepokura also did not tell us where such an assertion could be found.

You have to run this by me again: You like me to admit that I do not
know what Goldhagen had to say? Should I buy everybody’s book to find
out what they have to say? Listen boy Mister Collins made reference to
mister Goldhagen and now you are trying to deny me the right to say what
he had to say about him. Are you sure that you have all your faculties? 
Mr Slepokuo had the courtesy to post Mister Collins speech which made
reverence to Goldhagen. Now a dirt like you comes along that I should
not use this reverence because it does not fit into your hate
propoganty? Right? Oh I know, now you are going to tell me that YOU
PEOPLE are the chosen ones and have special right which cannot be given
to others. What a clown!!

It was not Slepokuos job to find out if collins was telling the truth.
Nowhere did he say the Collins was right or wrong on this!

> 
> >eyes and have a look. This is a news group where people discuss the pro
> >and cons of any subject: You expect people to go to your web side  for
> >the same reason like many others to listen to your point of view. You
> >can convert some but not all.
> 
> Mr. Knoll, we are not talking about my website, we are talking about
> misrepresentation of an author's thesis. Can you not stick to the
> subject?

See above.

> 
> >It is your tactics to achieve your goal that are highly suspect.
> 
> My desire is to demonstrate that you say things which are not true,
> and expect us to take it upon faith that the data is correct. Had you
> published a citation along with the quote, you would have at least
> saved yourself the embarrassment of repeating a lie.
> 
> >> Now. Which was it? Did you publish the misrepresentation believing it
> >> to be true, to be false, or of no importance either way? After all,
> >> you're the man who tried to convince us the whole world detested
> >> Germans, and you're the one that offered the misrepresentation.
> >
> >You must be a real clown when you thing for one moment to get away with
> >your nonsense. You are trying to convince people that I am publishing
> >false news on purpose. In this your way to twist thing around.
> 
> No, Sir, I am trying to get you to tell me which was the case. Did you
> know the assertion was false, or did you accept it's validity on faith?
> If you accepted it on faith, I should think you would be unhappy with
> Mr. Collins for asserting untrue statements.

Did I know that this assertion was false? That is easy to say. Right now
you are telling me that it is false. Why should I trust you? because you
say so? Suppose Collins uses the same argument, what happen than?

On faith? What nonsense. I read news papers every day and make the
decision what is interesting  to talk about.

> 
> >I hope you go ahead with your style so people can really see what you
> >are. I am looking forward to your next response so you have a chance to
> >expose yourself and your supporters so people can see what tactics you
> >are using to suppress people with a different view.
> 
> I have no wish to suppress your view, Mr. Knoll. I can't imagine
> anyone would want to do that. I am trying to get you to concede that
> you published something that, when challenged, cannot be shown as
> anything but misrepresentation.

Anything I or you say can be challenged by people who have a different
opinion. Do you think for one moment that this will stop me or others to
have a opinion?
> 
> >Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
> >like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
> >the get harder."
> 
> I'm not interested in where you came from, Mr. Knoll, but I am
> interested in pointing it out when you misrepresent Goldhagen, or lie
> about me. Your whopper about my wishing to censor Holocaust deniers
> being a glaring case in point, and one you have been avoiding since
> asked to back up your writing with some facts. Consistent behavior in
> your case, I must say.

I don not particular care if you are interested or not. Your action here
clearly shows that you do not approve of what other people have to say
when it does not fit in you plans. 


> 
> >Go back to your bosses for more instructions before you make your next
> >move. I am waiting. I do know how to handle riffraff like you any day
> 
> I'm my own boss, Mr. Knoll. Now that we've got that out of the way,
> can you tell me who that "you people" is you keep referring to, or are
> you going to run away from that one, too?

The only time you are your own boss when you go to your toilet to have a
piss. The rest of  the time you are playing a team song. Go and grow up.
Telling me that you have no connections is absurd. 

> 
> >Where did I say that I lied? Or encouraged you to lie?
> 
> You have said that I want to censor Holocaust deniers, Mr. Knoll. That
> is a lie. You, having said it, were asked to explain. You failed to do
> so, and ignored the request. That tends to make things pretty clear
> where your dedication to truth is concerned, does it not, Sir?

Lets get it in your head, you are a nobody to begin with and are acting
as a mouthpiece for a big organization. It doesn’t matter what you say.
Fact is that your sponsors are trying to censor people you do not agree
with. You do not like what Collins has to say and you  made sure that
Zundel is silenced. As you noticed I was using the word YOU.

You are part of an organization wherever you like it or not. Life with
it

Perhaps no is the time for you to make the proper exit. Do it soon, so I
can put the manhole cover back on, Will you?

Werner Knoll
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon, Sayings


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:20 EDT 1998
Article: 229277 of can.politics
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Patrick Lepine wrote:
> 
> In article <6ip65q$kie@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, dswan@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan) wrote:
> >Werner, don't hold your breath in anticipation of any
> >apology or retraction on the part of Mr. McVay.  He has
> >learned to follow the same policy as Israel:  Offer no apologies,
> >and never admit error.
> >
> >If, in any thread, he does not see the opportunity to score
> >points, he will simply cease replying rather than look weak.
> >
> >
> In this case, it's merely a convenient coincidence that he has nothing to
> apologize for, right?

Maybe McVay has to win at all cost? Or he is afraid to show his
weakness? Or the reverse gear in his car is gone? Or he feels things 
could go out of control. Perhaps he has no instructions from higher up
what to do next. So many reasons and no easy answers. Could it be that
Stalin is beyond his plan not to listen to somebody else’s IDEAS?  
Naaa.  

He is just ignorant.

Werner Knoll
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, so why should we let them have ideas?"
Joseph Stalin


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:22 EDT 1998
Article: 229290 of can.politics
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John Baglow wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> 
> > You have to run this by me again: You like me to admit that I do not
> > know what Goldhagen had to say? Should I buy everybody’s book to find
> > out what they have to say? Listen boy Mister Collins made reference to
> > mister Goldhagen and now you are trying to deny me the right to say what
> > he had to say about him. Are you sure that you have all your faculties?
> > Mr Slepokuo had the courtesy to post Mister Collins speech which made
> > reverence to Goldhagen. Now a dirt like you comes along that I should
> > not use this reverence because it does not fit into your hate
> > propoganty? Right? Oh I know, now you are going to tell me that YOU
> > PEOPLE are the chosen ones and have special right which cannot be given
> > to others. What a clown!!
> 
> Werner, Werner, Werner: you are embarrassing yourself publicly. You begin
> by quoting a person quoting another person about a book you have not read.
> Ken notes that the book, freely available, doesn't say what someone says
> someone else says it says. This isn't a matter of opinion, but of fact.
> What on earth is wrong with asking for a citation from the book that
> someone says someone else says contains a sweeping anti-German reference?
> To ask you to look at the book for yourself and cite the offending
> reference in question isn't "dirt" but a request for intellectual honesty.

So what is wrong when he asked me how I got this information that I gave
him the source? I have no interest to read all of Collins articles in
the North shore news and doing research on everything he says. By the
way most of Collins articles I picked up at the cafeteria. There are
hundreds  or thousands of quotes including the one Collins made about
Goldhagen everyday in newspapers or news group. As a matter of fact if I
would go after every quote about the second world war or the holocaust
and ask for citations, I would probably spend the read of my live doing
nothing else. Since when is it a crime to mention what you read on the
Internet? Where did I say that I am not taking Ken’s word for it that
this quote is not in this book? What I said that I have to be neutral on
this. Do you know how to reach Collins and ask him what he thinks of
this. I would be nice to know how he came to his conclusion. 


> 
> If the subject were "mushrooms", and someone quoted someone else who
> claimed that a book stated that "Portobello mushrooms cause cancer", and
> someone wanted the citation, would you call that someone names--or would
> you go to the book in question and look for the alleged quote? We are
> dealing with method here. There's nothing to get so excited about.

It would depend how much interest I have on mushrooms. Getting in an
argument about this would depend on his opinion and only. The best way
to solve this problem would be to ask his opponent for a debate. OK. I
hope  we are not having a debate on chicken soup next.
> 
> >
> > It was not Slepokuos job to find out if collins was telling the truth.
> > Nowhere did he say the Collins was right or wrong on this!
> >
> 
> Oh, please. He quoted an alleged anti-German statement as though it
> existed. That existence is now in question. The matter is easily resolved.
> Read the book.

He quoted an article by Doug Collins he made in Oliver BC He made
reverences to Sol Littman, the Globe & Mail, Ernest Zundel, About the
Jewish congress, Goldhagen, Bergen Belsen, David Lethbridge, Attorney
General Ujjal Dosanjh, the Human Rights  Commission, George Orwell, (how
can I get a hold of Orwell), the Alberta Press Act from 1933, Harry
Abrams the founder of B’Nai Brith in Victoria BC, Winston Churchill and
many many more reverences. To be fair I would have to check each and
everyone of his reverences out. How long would this take you think.
After all I quoted his whole speech. Get real.
> 
> >> No, Sir, I am trying to get you to tell me which was the case. Did you
> >> know the assertion was false, or did you accept it's validity on faith?
> >> If you accepted it on faith, I should think you would be unhappy with
> >> Mr. Collins for asserting untrue statements.
> >
> > Did I know that this assertion was false? That is easy to say. Right now
> > you are telling me that it is false. Why should I trust you? because you
> > say so? Suppose Collins uses the same argument, what happen than?
> 
> Good grief! Don't trust Ken, don't trust anyone! Read the book for yourself!
> 
> > Anything I or you say can be challenged by people who have a different
> > opinion. Do you think for one moment that this will stop me or others to
> > have a opinion?
> 
> No one's stopping you. But an informed opinion carries more weight,
> doesn't it? And all you have to do is to read the book. The damned quote
> is either there or it isn't.

Right now the only interest you have to get me read the BOOK? That what
religious people are telling me too, I should read their Bible. How
about Reading Hitlers Mein Kampf?  I read that one too and what a waste
of time this was for me. I would have been better of to take a walk in
the Park.


> 
> > Lets get it in your head, you are a nobody to begin with and are acting
> > as a mouthpiece for a big organization. It doesn’t matter what you say.
> > Fact is that your sponsors are trying to censor people you do not agree
> > with. You do not like what Collins has to say and you  made sure that
> > Zundel is silenced. As you noticed I was using the word YOU.
> 
> What "big organization" is Ken the mouthpiece for?

That I would like to know. Question? Would he come out in the open and
tell me and others from what source he is getting his information’s. I
am willing to wait for his answer and I hope that he is truthful about
this. Perhaps I do put my hopes too high.

Werner Knoll
> 
> And what a joke to suggest that Ken is in favour of censorship! He went
> after me like a pit bull not too long ago precisely because he is (and I
> am not) *opposed* to censorship.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:30 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <355067AF.AC1767B8@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >You people?
> 
> Darn! I thought you were going to tell us who "you people" was...
> Shucks.
> 
> >It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your own. So
> >why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so you can
> >answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!
> 
> I have no sponsor, Mr. Knoll. I began doing this long before anyone
> but me gave a damn. Do you see banner advertising on Nizkor's pages,
> Mr. Knoll?
> 
> If you want me to accept that those who donate funds for my work are
> "sponsors," then there are rather a lot of them... I have a list of
> 500 or so, which hasn't been updated in two years. I haven't met more
> than a handful of them - and lots of names on the list look a lot like
> "Wong," of "Robinson," so I don't know what to deduce. Are these the
> "you people" you mean, or do you mean the Roman Catholic chritable
> foundation in Toronto that funded major html work last year? Are the
> kind Sisters "you people?"
> 
> >Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence


Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??

You know the saying Whose bread I eat his song I sing BOY? What would
you do without your sponsors BOY?
To make your day BOY I will post Collins speech again and again till it
comes out of your ear BOY What filthy person are you anyway??
Here comes your wake up call again and let see how far you will go with
your distortions next time. You stink, take a bath you need it BOY.


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:32 EDT 1998
Article: 229322 of can.politics
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> In the case of the Goldhagen book, I got it where you should have
> gotten it: from Goldhagen's book. Since it was published, you see,
> extremist elements flogging the "Woe is me, everyone hates Germans"
> horse has charged him with blaming all Germans for the Holocaust. For
> that reason, I have read the book - carefully, I might add - several
> times, looking for the sorts of quotes Collins cites. As Mr. Baglow
> pointed out elsewhere, it is really quite simple: If you think I am
> lying, read the book, and prove it, right here in front of everyone.
> Take a year or two.

Check Collins speech again and compare what I said about Goldhagen. I am
really glad that you are around. Now people can easily see how people
like you operate to get your way. You prove to me without and thought
that you are dirt and nothing else put dirt. Back in your hole till next
time you filth.

Mister Collins is a wonderful man. A man with dignity and life
experiences. Yes I can see it now we need more people like him.

I will continue to post Collins marvelous speech again and again till
you chock on it.

Werner Knoll


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:35 EDT 1998
Article: 229344 of can.politics
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From: Werner Knoll 
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Organization: The Knoll's
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

> >Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??
> 
> Where did someone suggest Mr. Knoll denied the Holocaust? Who is this
> "BOY?" Is he one of the "you people?" [Film at Eleven]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:

: Mr. Knoll, in common with many Holocaust deniers, has no difficulty
: lying through his teeth, even about things which have clearly revealed
: him as a liar, in front of tens of thousands of people. Their
: Holocaust "scholarship" often works on precisely the same level.
-------------------------


On Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?
This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:16:44 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's

> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.

The next episode: You boy are saying that I quoted Goldhagen. Where are
the quotation marks?
Were is what my dictionary say. You Ken BOY are a fraud and a disgrace
to your community

Quote: Somebodys word repeated exactly by another person from a person
pasage  or speech.

Quotation marks: One pair of marks to mark used to indicate the
beginning and end of a quotqtion.

One more time Collins speech for you.

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:39 EDT 1998
Article: 229423 of can.politics
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Patrick Lepine wrote:
> 

> >Maybe McVay has to win at all cost? Or he is afraid to show his
> >weakness? Or the reverse gear in his car is gone?
> 
> 
> >He is just ignorant.
> >
> 
> Perhaps you need to reread his posts more carefully. You took a third hand
> quote and posted it as the truth.  You were called on it, and the best you can
> come up with so far is the excuse that they weren't your words, you were just
> quoting someone who quoted someone else.  _You_ are responsible for what you
> write, not the person you mistakenly believe.


Sunday May 3 1998 10:09:19
========================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Note quotation marks from willing to Germans? Oviosly it did revere to
Collins speech.

Sunday May 3  1998 19:09:46
=======================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: 3 May 1998 19:09:46 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll  
wrote:

>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)

Sunday May 3 1998 23:13:49
=========================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:13:49 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
> >Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
> >German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
> >"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
> >promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
> >CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
> >Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
> 
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
=============
Now what is this going to tell you? There was a posting.
There was a Mister John Angus inquiring. 
There was McVay to like to have his way
There was the answer where I got this quote from.

McVay is actually lucky that this is not a real live situation and
because of his holocaust industrial sponsors backing he can mouth off as
much as he likes. In al likelihood he is practicing to become a lawyer 
and likes to charge me with spreading false news next.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:41 EDT 1998
Article: 229424 of can.politics
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:229424 van.general:54115 can.general:117898 bc.general:73399 ab.general:58825

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <35512E43.1E316688@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> >
> >> >Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??
> >>
> >> Where did someone suggest Mr. Knoll denied the Holocaust? Who is this
> >> "BOY?" Is he one of the "you people?" [Film at Eleven]

Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:

: Mr. Knoll, in common with many Holocaust deniers, has no difficulty
: lying through his teeth, even about things which have clearly revealed
: him as a liar, in front of tens of thousands of people. Their
: Holocaust "scholarship" often works on precisely the same level.

I am having a difficult time holding my nose with both hands. That why I
cut most of your smelly parts out.You got this BOY.


Sunday May 3 1998 10:09:19
========================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Note quotation marks from willing to Germans? Oviosly it did revere to
Collins speech.

Sunday May 3  1998 19:09:46
=======================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: 3 May 1998 19:09:46 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll  
wrote:

>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)

Sunday May 3 1998 23:13:49
=========================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:13:49 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
> >Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
> >German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
> >"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
> >promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
> >CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
> >Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
> 
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
=============
Now what is this going to tell you? There was a posting.
There was a Mister John Angus inquiring. 
There was McVay to like to have his way
There was the answer where I got this quote from.

McVay you are actually lucky that this is not a real live situation and
because of his holocaust industrial sponsors backing you can mouth off
as
much as you like. In all likelihood you are practicing to become a
lawyer 
and like to charge me with spreading false news next.That what happen to
Ernest Zundel?????

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:42 EDT 1998
Article: 229444 of can.politics
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> >I am having a difficult time holding my nose with both hands. That why I
> >cut most of your smelly parts out.You got this BOY.

Still holding my nose.



The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:45 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> to "boy," or "you people?")

The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them. 

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:46 EDT 1998
Article: 229482 of can.politics
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John Baglow wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Dear Werner,
> 
> You disappoint me. I am still willing to take you at your word when you
> state that you believe there was a Holocaust. So I am not yet ready to put
> you in the neo-nazi/Holocaust-denying camp. But why are you so all-fired
> anxious to put yourself there?

Well John. As a child I do remember being with my parents in a city
park. Seeing many older people walking around in the park having the
star of David sewn to their clothing to identify them As Jews. I ask my
parents what that is all about? The said, it is forbidden to talk
to this people. By 1941 all this people were not to be seen in this park
anymore.

In 1941 I seen Jewish men loaded up in an open truck and moved away. I
ask my father what this is all about and he said to me do not talk to
this soldiers.

Well what happen after that with this people I can only assume. 

> 
> I believe I can understand your sensitivity, as a person of German
> extraction, to suggestions that *all Germans* are this, that or the other.
> And I can also readily understand, if not be sympathetic to, your reaction
> against Jews as a result of what you take to be personal attacks on you
> merely for being German--although I have not seen such attacks, and, as a
> reader of alt.revisionism posts, I have been frankly amazed to see little
> or no trace of anti-German sentiment among the ranks of those outraged by
> both the Holocaust and those who deny that it ever took place.

Time have changed in the last 20 Years.
Perhaps I can explain it by an example. Being an newcomer in the
fifties, me and my brother were fair game for everybody who had a axe to
grind against the Germans. When Idi Amin, I am not sure that his name is
right booted the East Indians out of his country Things changed. For
some time I did feel that I am in some kind of vacuum and could not find
the reason why?

And than I seen the reason why. This East Indians were now the target.
Up to today this East Indians are now abused by the same riffraff. I can
tell you that I will stop anybody who is slandering this people in my
present. 

> 
> A word about Ken: he is a sincere, honest and learned individual who
> happens to be appalled by the Holocaust-denial industry, and was moved,
> well after I began to read his posts, to set up a comprehensive WebSite
> (Nizkor) where the exhaustive documentation on the Holocaust could be
> deposited. The Holocaust-deniers appear there too. Ken is motivated by
> genuine outrage that an event so well-documented as the Holocaust could be
> denied, disingenuously in most if not all cases, by people pushing a
> neo-nazi/white supremacist agenda.

I do not blame him fighting off racists of all kind but what he is doing
with people he does not agree with is a different story. He is building 
up a scenario to prove that everybody who does not agree with him must
be a liar or a holocaust denier.
> 

> Ken is not the world's easiest person to get along with. As I noted in an
> earlier post, he went after me (well, in fairness, I started it by going
> after him) because I objected to his anti-censorship position on
> Web-hatred. And he is not giving you a particularly easy ride. But what I
> find tragic is that, in reaction,  you seem to feel forced to join forces with
> people with whom, I suspect, you don't really have much in common. I sense
> more humanity in you than I do in these others. But then, I've always been
> an optimist about human beings. I'm bending over backwards, at this
> moment, to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you're making it
> increasingly more difficult for me.

Ken has to realize that there appears to be a connection in between him
and the  Jewish groups. Instead of him saying, Yes I am getting
materials from this group, he is acting as if he is a one man show.

In regard to his anti censorship position? How can He claim to be anti
censorship when in all his actions he is trying to put people off the
air?

> 
> Doug Collins is a racist, an anti-semite, a Holocaust-denier: all of this
> has been amply demonstrated in his own writings. In the old days, he had a
> column in various newspapers in BC, where he used words like "Paki" and
> "jungle-bunny" to describe those who were born with different skin-colour.
> I heard him on the CBC years ago doing an opinion piece about how
> unfortunate it was that white kids couldn't get summer jobs at fast-food
> joints because they were overrun with Jamaicans. More recently, he has,
> even in the speech that you quote again and again and again, called the
> Holocaust "nonsense". I am sure that speech, btw, is archived at Nizkor.
> 

Collins in some or all of his statements about immigrants? It sure looks
that way. He has the ability to go from one end of the spectrum to the 
other. When I look at his articles there are some points that I do not 
agree with but this does not stop me to give him point to where he is 
right and that is sensorship. 

I went to the library yesterday to look for this book but it is out.

Author  Goldhagen, Daniel.
   Title  Hitler's willing executioners : ordinary ...        
 
                                                               Holds:  1

 CALL NUMBER                       STATUS          LIBRARY
1. Nonfiction                      Due date        Guildford

940.5318  GOL 1996                 26 May 98

Ken has to realize that he is barking up the wrong tree when he thinks
to play around with me. With all his manipulation he doing a disservice
to his cause and as long he carries on like this I will post Collins
speech till this speech will come out of his ears.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:48 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3551EE42.302F200C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Still holding my nose.

> Mr. Knoll, in common with Holocaust deniers, often finds that
> resorting to outright lies is easier than trying to support claptrap
> with documentation.

Now you are telling me what your real name is. Mister Ken Claptrap. 
The mouth in motion man of the year. 


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:49 EDT 1998
Article: 229505 of can.politics
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!newsfeed.wli.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <35524BC3.6514134E@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
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What a waste of energy. Reminds me of 1945 when we said with a grin on
our face: : Und wir haben doch Gesiegt" (We still did win)

Only difference is. we did know that it was a sad situation. Perhaps you
could help people in need with your talent

Werner Knoll 



Bruce Becker wrote:
> 
> In article ,
> Jason Arron Black  wrote:
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From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:50 EDT 1998
Article: 229548 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <35528989.E253E1A6@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Organization: The Knoll's
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

> In Mr. Knoll's case it was easy to label him as a liar; he lied. He
> got caught. End of story. No files needed - Mr. Knoll was kind enough
> to expose himself.

Children use the name liar as often as you do one of the reason is that
the do not no what the other kid’s are talking about or the do no feel
the lost the battle. You said that I was lying but when I asked for the
EXACT paragraph and posting where I said what You never came up with the
answer. One of the reason probably you will not do this is because you
are wrong. I can assure you that I have all of my postings on my drive.
> 
> >Ken has to realize that there appears to be a connection in between him
> >and the  Jewish groups. Instead of him saying, Yes I am getting
> >materials from this group, he is acting as if he is a one man show.
> 
> A connection? Yes, Mr. Knoll, there is a connection. I work with Dr.
> Mock and the League for Human Rights, I have worked with the Canadian
> Jewish Congress, and I am soon going to participate in a forum for the
> American Jewish Committee. The League for Human Rights manages monies
> donated for the Nizkor Project. Those are hardly secrets, as the
> information is plastered all over my websites.

At one occasion you gave the impression that you are the mover and
shaker of your show.
> 
> I am not, however, beholden to any of them. Sol Littman behaves very
> badly when he talks about me - he writes rather naughty letters to
> others, perhaps in the hope that I will shut up and go away. As I
> said, it is also clear that I am beholden to no-one.

Are you telling me that Littman does not know when to act?
> 
> Let's talk about "materials," Mr. Knoll. The "material" I am working
> on now - and have been working on for some years, is the NCA "red
> series" of Nurnberg documents. The set was given to me. I am also
> working on the British transcripts of the Nurnberg trial - I spent
> close to $900 to acquire the 26-volume set, out of my own pocket.
> Yesterday, I scanned a research paper written by an SFU student. It
> was mamiled to me - pretty sinister, eh Mr. Knoll?
> 
> You seem to be a reasonable man, Mr. Knoll, but you are not terribly
> rational when it comes to your lies or your rather silly
> generalizations. Even your insults are second-rate; I am truly
> embarrassed for you. Hey - if you want to insult me, learn from Bart
> Alsbrook, a bonehead from Texas - he called me a "self-confessed child
> molester," and toned that down to "bucket of shit" when I threatened a
> lawsuit. Ronald Schoedel and Leslie Griswold used to show real
> creativity when they insulted me; I find "BOY!" and "You people"
> pretty disappointing, Mr. Knoll.

Looks to me that you are trying hard to make real friend all of your
life? There is one more difference with me. I have no reverse gear and
if this means to go to jail at public cost, that what I will do. I can
tell you this would be a entertainment for me. 
> 
> Those who either know me, or who have attended forums or symposiums
> where I have participated, know how strongly I support freedom of
> speech on the net. Parliament knows it, too, Mr. Knoll. You will find
> my name mentioned in a good many working papers and reports out of
> Ottawa. I don't tell you that to give myself a stroke, I tell you that
> so that you will know how stupid - and how uninformed - you look when
> you accuse me of wanting to censor the net. If you want to keep
> repeating that claptrap, by all means continue. It's your reputation
> that is taking the beating.

Vancouver Province March 10, 1998
Racism on Net no big deal: Educator.

Research shows there’s been little interest in cyberspace sites that
promote hatred when compared with other sites. Ken McVay, director of
the Nizkor Project, said at a symposium on how to combat Internet hate 
sides.

In regard of you censoring the net? I said many time that your
association with others leads me to believe that is what you people are
after. Now you may say that this is not your intention and you say that
you are for free speech. This reminds  me of Kin Hubbard saying:   The’
feller that agrees with every’ thing you say is either a fool or he is
ready to skin you".

> 
> >In regard to his anti censorship position? How can He claim to be anti
> >censorship when in all his actions he is trying to put people off the
> >air?
> 
> There you go again, Mr. Knoll, shooting yourself in the foot. Go
> ahead, tell me how I am "trying to put people off the air." Take your
> time, and be very specific. Talk about _me_, Mr. Knoll, not "you
> people" or the Vatican.

Well I am talking about you. Your style leads me to believe that many
people feel harassed by you. What would be the end results of this. Like
someone told me by e-mail one time. He would like very much to
participate in any discussion but as soon he likes to say some thing, he
is being shouted down because he has a different view than the other
guys. That is no free discussion at all put dictatorship.

The best example is here. If I would not be head strong, this discussion
would have come to an end a long time ago. For instance, when I posted
the first time, a mister John  Angus did like a clarification.

See note below. Sunday 3, May 1998 10:09:19
=============
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
=======================

In Sunday 3, May 1998 19:09:46 You wanted so clarification. 
>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)
============
On Sunday May 3, 1998 23:13:49 I gave you the information You wanted but
this was not good enough because you had other plans how to exploit this
situation.
========
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
==== =====
Clearly when you look at my posting from Sunday 3, May 1998 10:09:19
You can see that this reference was to the Letter by Mister Collins.
Wherever Mister Collins was lying or not should have never been an issue
in the first place. The issue should have been that a perception was
there and this was my whole point in the first place.

> 
> >Collins in some or all of his statements about immigrants? It sure looks
> >that way. He has the ability to go from one end of the spectrum to the
> >other. When I look at his articles there are some points that I do not
> >agree with but this does not stop me to give him point to where he is
> >right and that is sensorship.
> 
> He is not right, however, about Goldhagen.
> He was not right when he claimed the IRC had issued a report. No
> such report existed.
> And I have no interest whatsoever in shutting Mr. Collins up. I _like_
> it when he makes an ass of himself, Mr. Knoll.

Mister Collins is a writer and has an opinion like other writers. You
have every right not to believe what he says and I as a reader have the
right to be wrong
> 
> >Ken has to realize that he is barking up the wrong tree when he thinks
> >to play around with me. With all his manipulation he doing a disservice
> >to his cause and as long he carries on like this I will post Collins
> >speech till this speech will come out of his ears.
> 
> I have no interest in "playing around" with Mr. Knoll. His sense of
> humour is far too droll, and his utter lack of shame over the lies he
> repeats makes him an undesirable playmate.

I have learned a long time ago to be numb by some peoples attack and
safe my energy for another time. About lying? I am waiting for your
reply on my first pargraph.
> 
> I don't much care if Mr. Knoll posts Mr. Collin's speech until the
> cows come home - my sole concern was to point out that Mr. Collins was
> lying when he charged Goldhagen with holding all Germans responsible
> for the Holocaust.


> 
> Every time Mr. Knoll posts Mr. Collins' lie, Mr. Knoll and Mr. Collins
> look a little bit sillier.

There is one thing you forget. I can play silly a lot better than you
think. The end results many times have been that people were begging me
to stop.

Werner Knoll
"When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard
not scorch somebody’s beard."
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:53 EDT 1998
Article: 229615 of can.politics
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <35528989.E253E1A6@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> In Mr. Knoll's case it was easy to label him as a liar; he lied. He
> >> got caught. End of story. No files needed - Mr. Knoll was kind enough
> >> to expose himself.
> 
> >Children use the name liar as often as you do one of the reason is that
> >the do not no what the other kid’s are talking about or the do no feel
> >the lost the battle. You said that I was lying but when I asked for the
> >EXACT paragraph and posting where I said what You never came up with the
> >answer. One of the reason probably you will not do this is because you
> >are wrong. I can assure you that I have all of my postings on my drive.
> 
> Mr. Knoll, I am pleased that you have saved your posts. Count the
> number of times to said that I wanted to censor Holocaust deniers -
> each time you did that, you lied.

You asked me many time who do I mean with you. I said many times that I
was revering to you as you people. The next time you asked what do I
mean by your people. Again I said you must have people backing you up. 
You said that you have communication only with others.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> >> >Ken has to realize that there appears to be a connection in between him
> >> >and the  Jewish groups. Instead of him saying, Yes I am getting
> >> >materials from this group, he is acting as if he is a one man show.
> >>
> >> A connection? Yes, Mr. Knoll, there is a connection. I work with Dr.
> >> Mock and the League for Human Rights, I have worked with the Canadian
> >> Jewish Congress, and I am soon going to participate in a forum for the
> >> American Jewish Committee. The League for Human Rights manages monies
> >> donated for the Nizkor Project. Those are hardly secrets, as the
> >> information is plastered all over my websites.
> >
> >At one occasion you gave the impression that you are the mover and
> >shaker of your show.
> 
> I am that. If I stop doing this, I stop doing this. Nizkor won't go
> away, but it won't be because of some organization. It will be because
> I have more friends than I could shake a stick at, and they are all
> standing in line waiting to keep it happening. I can think of a solid
> dozen or so just in Toronto... hell, of the 12+, one of them is
> actually Jewish. He's first in line, too, Mr. Knoll, because he is as
> opposed to censorship as I am - your lie to the contrary
> notwithstanding - and because he doesn't suffer fools any less gladly
> than I. If you bothered to check my site, Mr. Knoll, you would see a
> long list of contributors, past and present. If you check most of the
> publicity Nizkor has generated, you will see that this has always been
> a team effort. Sometimes the size of the team shrinks, sometimes it
> grows, but it is always there.

And your friend have no influence on you live what so ever because are
like mountain of truth high above everybody else? Lets talk about 
censorship a little later on.

> 
> Those good friends in Toronto have done an amazing amount of systems
> work on multiple UNIX platforms for multiple years. With very rare
> exceptions, these folks never get paid. Teamwork.

It only proves that this people are dedicated to a cause and does not
mean that because of this are outstanding people.
> 
> Good friends all over the world, Mr. Knoll. I've never indicated
> otherwise. I have, however, made one thing very clear - I speak for
> Nizkor, because no-one else can. I started this "show," Mr. Knoll, and
> I've kept it going - and growing - for over six years. Call it
> whatever you wish, but try and get that crap about me being under
> someone else's control out of your head - it only serves to make you
> look rather strange, particularly with the folks who know me, and they
> are the ones that really count.

Sure? No influence what so ever in your decision making RIGHT?

> 
> >> I am not, however, beholden to any of them. Sol Littman behaves very
> >> badly when he talks about me - he writes rather naughty letters to
> >> others, perhaps in the hope that I will shut up and go away. As I
> >> said, it is also clear that I am beholden to no-one.

I have been watching acting before and this quit a show. Mind you, I
could be lying on this so call me a liar for this. 

> >
> >Are you telling me that Littman does not know when to act?
> 
> If you want to know something about what Mr. Littman knows or does not
> know, ask Mr. Littman. He is, I assure you, quite capable of speaking
> for himself. If you think that Mr. Littman is pleased with my
> opposition to censoring Holocaust deniers and others blights, you
> haven't read my fan mail very well... you will find it under
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/littman-sol.

Sure and he is going than to spill it all out for me. I am lying again
on this one?

> 
> Read it, then come back and tell me that some organization called, er,
> "you people" is running me. That's quite a leap, even for you.
> 
> >> Let's talk about "materials," Mr. Knoll. The "material" I am working
> >> on now - and have been working on for some years, is the NCA "red
> >> series" of Nurnberg documents. The set was given to me. I am also
> >> working on the British transcripts of the Nurnberg trial - I spent
> >> close to $900 to acquire the 26-volume set, out of my own pocket.
> >> Yesterday, I scanned a research paper written by an SFU student. It
> >> was mamiled to me - pretty sinister, eh Mr. Knoll?

My Posting
=====================================================================
Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
the get harder."
=======================================================================
I am from Nürnberg even when you call me a Berliner because I gave an
example about boiling eggs. Were you lying?? No I am lying? Right

It is good you brought this topic up. You see, if the laws established
at the Nürnberg trial would have been enforced equally over the years,
especially in regard to Vietnam and other places than it would have been
fair It is only when trouble in the former Yugoslavia started that there
is some action taken. Nürnberg trials were nothing more than show trials
plain and simple. To say different, I would be lying again. Ups another
lie again. 

> 
> [Mr. Knoll, having asked about "materials," declines comment]
> 
> >> You seem to be a reasonable man, Mr. Knoll, but you are not terribly
> >> rational when it comes to your lies or your rather silly
> >> generalizations. Even your insults are second-rate; I am truly
> >> embarrassed for you. Hey - if you want to insult me, learn from Bart
> >> Alsbrook, a bonehead from Texas - he called me a "self-confessed child
> >> molester," and toned that down to "bucket of shit" when I threatened a
> >> lawsuit. Ronald Schoedel and Leslie Griswold used to show real
> >> creativity when they insulted me; I find "BOY!" and "You people"
> >> pretty disappointing, Mr. Knoll.
> 
> >Looks to me that you are trying hard to make real friend all of your
> >life? There is one more difference with me. I have no reverse gear and
> >if this means to go to jail at public cost, that what I will do. I can
> >tell you this would be a entertainment for me.
> 
> I never tried to make a friend in my life, Mr. Knoll. (You really
> shouldn't speak more than you listen - it's bad for your image.)

I am not sure that you can use this word about not making friend. I
forgot to register this quote because I did consider this to be mine and
I had it before.

> >Vancouver Province March 10, 1998
> >Racism on Net no big deal: Educator.
> >
> >Research shows there’s been little interest in cyberspace sites that
> >promote hatred when compared with other sites. Ken McVay, director of
> >the Nizkor Project, said at a symposium on how to combat Internet hate
> >sides.
> 
> Just as true today as it was when I said it. Thank you for bringing it
> to everyone's attention again.
> 
> >In regard of you censoring the net? I said many time that your
> >association with others leads me to believe that is what you people are
> >after. Now you may say that this is not your intention and you say that
> >you are for free speech. This reminds  me of Kin Hubbard saying:   The’
> >feller that agrees with every’ thing you say is either a fool or he is
> >ready to skin you".
> 
> Please read what I have said, and done, Mr. Knoll. Don't strain your
> neurons trying to define my intentions - you are not up to it. The
> fact is that you accused me of wanting to censor deniers. That is not
> true, Mr. Knoll. You lied. My track record goes back 6 years, and is
> very well documented. You lied.

Your track records of what goes back 6 years? Are you talking about
lying? Ups another lie again.
> 
> >> >In regard to his anti censorship position? How can He claim to be anti
> >> >censorship when in all his actions he is trying to put people off the
> >> >air?
> 
> >> There you go again, Mr. Knoll, shooting yourself in the foot. Go
> >> ahead, tell me how I am "trying to put people off the air." Take your
> >> time, and be very specific. Talk about _me_, Mr. Knoll, not "you
> >> people" or the Vatican.
> 
> >Well I am talking about you. Your style leads me to believe that many
> >people feel harassed by you. What would be the end results of this. Like
> >someone told me by e-mail one time. He would like very much to
> >participate in any discussion but as soon he likes to say some thing, he
> >is being shouted down because he has a different view than the other
> >guys. That is no free discussion at all put dictatorship.
> 
> You are lying about me, Mr. Knoll. Stop lying and we'll start talking.
> Until then, it works like this: You tell a lie, I demonstrate that you
> have told a lie.
> 
> That's my "style," Mr. Knoll - I respond when folks tell lies about
> me. Get used to it.

Well this is going to carry on like this till hell if there is such
thing is freezing over. Get some extra lunch, you need it.

> 
> Your comments do raise a very interesting issue, however, as you
> clearly wish to restrict speech - make folks conform to your idea of a
> discussion. Hitler did that too. This is digital, Mr. Knoll, and it is
> not possible to shout anyone down. It's an excuse with a nice initial
> scent, until you peel away the hide and smell the rot.

How do I wish to restrict free speech? More about free speech later.
=======================================================================
Well I am talking about you. Your style leads me to believe that many
people feel harassed by you. What would be the end results of this. Like
someone told me by e-mail one time. He would like very much to
participate in any discussion but as soon he likes to say some thing, he
is being shouted down because he has a different view than the other
guys. That is no free discussion at all put dictatorship.
========================================================================
This was my quote and after some manipulation you came up with your
note above.


> 1. I do not believe in unrestricted speech. I libeled, I will respond.
> If defamed, I will respond. I do not support the "freedom" to shout
> fire in that crowded theatre.

And because of this you would like to see rules and regulation in place
to decide what is proper or not and make sure that it is not called
censorship? Another of Mister Knolls LIE?
> 
> 2. I do not believe that the Internet is, or should be, extra-legal.
> 
> 3. I once did not believe that new laws were needed with respect to
> the net. I no longer believe that. The definition of "publishing," for
> instance, with respect to criminal defamation, would most certainly
> include the ISP, even if he didn't know about the criminal activity. I
> think that should be changed, so that the ISP would not be libel as a
> "publisher" unless he was legally advised that the law was being
> broken, and then failed to co-operate.

Are you talking about the quote of Mister Collins in regard to
Goldhagen? Making sure that laws will be passed to make this ilegal?

The ISP would not be libel as a  "publisher" unless he was legally
advised that the law was being
broken, and then failed to co-operate.?

 This of course would not be censorship because you are against this?
Would you call it than? Getting it your way special?? Werner is
lying again.

> 
> >The best example is here. If I would not be head strong, this discussion
> >would have come to an end a long time ago. For instance, when I posted
> >the first time, a mister John  Angus did like a clarification.
> 
> Mr. Knoll, much of this discussion centers upon the lies you repeat.
> When you stop doing that, it will probably stop. Goldhagen will take
> care of himself, because the belief attributed to him cannot be
> supported by his book.

Get ready for the long haul. I will be there.

Werner Knoll
If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you; but if you
really make them think, they’ll hate you.
Don Marquis.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:54 EDT 1998
Article: 229721 of can.politics
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3553025D.524FB545@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> 1. I do not believe in unrestricted speech. I libeled, I will respond.
> >> If defamed, I will respond. I do not support the "freedom" to shout
> >> fire in that crowded theatre.
> 
> >And because of this you would like to see rules and regulation in place
> >to decide what is proper or not and make sure that it is not called
> >censorship? Another of Mister Knolls LIE?
> 
> Interesting response... does Mr. Knoll, then, believe un unrestricted
> speech? Does he consider laws against fraud as censorship?


Of course you are right when you say we have to have some laws and you
give a good example. The problem I am having that people like to have
laws, always to control others.
You see many people to give examples like you because that make sense.
However their objective is to control others and that is what it is all
about.

(By the way giving only an ID to look up in dejanews is time consuming.
The date would be helpful to. I had 23 hits on this topic and had to
read more than half to check for the ID number.)


> 
> >> 2. I do not believe that the Internet is, or should be, extra-legal.
> >>
> >> 3. I once did not believe that new laws were needed with respect to
> >> the net. I no longer believe that. The definition of "publishing," for
> >> instance, with respect to criminal defamation, would most certainly
> >> include the ISP, even if he didn't know about the criminal activity. I
> >> think that should be changed, so that the ISP would not be libel as a
> >> "publisher" unless he was legally advised that the law was being
> >> broken, and then failed to co-operate.
> 
> >Are you talking about the quote of Mister Collins in regard to
> >Goldhagen? Making sure that laws will be passed to make this ilegal?
> 
> I don't think stupidity should ever be illegal, Mr. Knoll. If it were,
> you wouldn't be here.
> 
> >The ISP would not be libel as a  "publisher" unless he was legally
> >advised that the law was being
> >broken, and then failed to co-operate.?
> 
> > This of course would not be censorship because you are against this?
> >Would you call it than? Getting it your way special?? Werner is
> >lying again.
> 
> Werner is very confused - again. As the law with respect to criminal
> defamation stands, Mr. Knoll, it includes ISP's. Try to pay close
> attention. I know that English is not your first language, and that
> may be why you seem so confused:
> 
> PUBLISHING:
> 
> 299. [1] A person publishes a libel when he
> 
>     [a] exhibits it in public;
>     [b] causes it to be read or seen; or
>     [c] shows or delivers it, or causes it to be shown or delivered,
>         with intent that it should be read or seen by the person
>     whom it defames or by any other person. [R.S., c.c-34, s.263.]
> 
> That wording, unfairly in my opinion, includes ISPs. I don't think it
> should, unless and until they refuse to cooperate with legal
> authorities after being advised that their site is being used for
> criminal activity.

Laws are made to please special interest group. And of course the Jewish
groups never had ANY input when this laws were passed?
> 
> >> Mr. Knoll, much of this discussion centers upon the lies you repeat.
> >> When you stop doing that, it will probably stop. Goldhagen will take
> >> care of himself, because the belief attributed to him cannot be
> >> supported by his book.
> 
> >Get ready for the long haul. I will be there.
> 
> Tacit admission that Mr. Knoll plans to continue spreading his lies?

Ok should I say that you are the most respected person on this earth so
you can call me a liar again?

You may not realize this , but calling me a liar will solve absolutely
nothing. I was a salesman in the early fifties as a young man. I got
insults from customers, so did any other salesman. I complained about
this to my boss. He asked me if I sold anything? I said yes 67 thousand
DM worth of merchandise. He said: "What the hell are you worried about?
You sold 67.000.00 today and worry about a little thing like this.

Werner Knoll

"Distrust all in whom the impulse to Punish is powerful"
Friedrich Nietzsche.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:12:55 EDT 1998
Article: 229722 of can.politics
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BC wrote:
> 
> I like Rick Thorpe. I _don't_ like Glen Clark. Having said that, I
> like both of them even less after their fiasco outside the Legislature
> today. Mr Clark was outta line placing a firm hand on Mr.Thorpe.
>  Mr. Thorpe was way outta line telling Clark: " Take your hand off me,
> or I'll put you *down* boy".
>  Can't say I haven't felt (and acted upon) a similar feeling when
> threatened. In fact, in 'street' justice, the 'ol Clint Eastwood line
> applies after he's 'minimized' an opponent by saying (in the Good, the
> bad and the Ugly): "If you're gonna talk, talk. If You're gonna shoot,
> shoot."
>   Hell, maybe *I'm* outta line here, but I still believe our elected
> officials should fight the good fight, but ***not*** almost literally,
> in the halls of our building.
>  Thoughts? D.

Dan. You done something today what I did not expect from you. In saying
what you did by putting all politics aside, you shown to me and
hopefully others that you are a humane being. I have to congratulate you
for that. It is easy to judge others when we are not being put in a
situation like this. 

Werner Knoll
There is so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of
us,  that it is rather hard to tell which of us ought to reform the rest
of us.
Sign in Springdale, Connecticut.


From jmanson@nospam.visi.com Fri May  8 19:14:28 EDT 1998
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Subject: Re: herbs instead of ritalin HELP
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"J. A. Shook"  wrote:

>John Palmer wrote:
>
>I don't know about the preservatives and such, but I can attest to the
>fact that when I went on a low carb diet (absolutely NO refined carbs,
>sugar, bread, starches,etc) I noticed a drastic improvement in my own
>attention span, so much so that I couldn't tell a difference when I took
>my Ritalin.....  Note that this wasn't an ultra low carb diet, like
>Atkins, but merely an elimination of refined carbs, complex carbs
>(veggies, etc) were still cool.  I'm not advocating anything here, this
>is just a personal observation from my own experience.
>J. Shook

Interesting. Did you ever go back to carbs after that? If so did it
change things back?




From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:29 EDT 1998
Article: 73218 of bc.general
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Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >The realities of economics are such that it was these "bloodsucker unions"
> >that in fact saved capitalism's ass. If it wasn't for the unions your beloved
> >corporations would still have everyone working 12-hour days for just enough
> >pay to keep them and their families barely alive. You may think that it would
> >not be such a bad idea, but unfortunately there is a limit of abuse even
> >poor people can take. So now you have to put up with the unions, which
> >are only trying to ensure that workers get their fair share of the wealth
> >they produce. Beats hanging from a lamp-post, if you ask me. Accidently,
> >communist considered trade-unionists their number one enemy, traitors of
> >the working class' interests. So all the right-wing whiners should just shut
> >up and show some gratitude and appreciation towards the unions, to whom they
> >own their very existance today.
> >Igor
> >
> 
> We have heard the same nonsense from the other leftists - the Nazis - how they
> "saved" the capitalism by enslaving everyone, including the business owners,
> the capitalists.
> We didn't buy that one either.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:30 EDT 1998
Article: 73222 of bc.general
Message-ID: <354EA15D.A4D7EA3A@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Derek Nalecki wrote:

> >> >My principals in general is live and let live or shall I say: "Do unto
> >> >others as you would have them do unto you"
> >> >
> >> >If he thinks to get away with harassing me, than he must be dreaming.
> >> >Many people tried this before and did not succeed.
> >> >
> >> >You see there is a way to solve this problem:
> >> >
> >> >Number one; I will continue to chase him around and make sure that he
> >> >found his master. It will be people like you, innocent bystanders who
> >> >will be most offended by this and it will be people like you who will
> >> >cry to stop it.
> >>
> >> You are not a master of your own life, sport; you couldn't become one of
> >> another.
> >
> >Never said I was and neither are you but I have the will and ability to
> >get you to pull your hairs out of your head. If you think for one moment
> >that I cannot get under your skin, think again.
> 
> Werner, you couldn't get under your own skin, if you tried.

Another statement by Derek the mouth in motion and brain out of gear
instant expert.

Werner Knoll

If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:31 EDT 1998
Article: 73271 of bc.general
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> >That seems rather strange? Ernest Zundel likes to tell his story and
> >being censored asking the government to censor you people?
> 
> Mr. Knoll, does this mean that you will not condemn his attempts to
> censor information he does not like? Please address this question.

What does the word seems rather strange mean to you? It is obvious that
I do not approve of any kind of censorship.

How can you contemn this man for asking a funny question? It would be
different if he is able to say what he wants but likes to censor
everybody else like you people do.

> 
> Having done so, please tell me who "you people" refers to in the
> sentence above.
> 
> >If I were him, I would asked the government for a level playing field.
> 
> But he did not - he asked for censorship.

Perhaps he was denied the opportunity to represent his side on the
Internet. As a result of this, he may have said OK censor the others
too???

> 
> >Could it be possible there is no level playing field here at all and he
> >is Blackmailed by you people? When will he get the next parcel with
> >razor blades?
> 
> Who is this "you people," Mr. Knoll? Do you have evidence that he
> received a parcel of razor blades? Was this in the paper somewhere? If
> so, please explain whether you are asking _me_ this question (god
> knows why you'd ask me, but there's no accounting for some...) and if,
> by "you people" you mean some other bunch, tell me why you are asking
> me to speak for them, and why you feel that I can.
> 
Vancouver Province Sunday March 29, 1998
Trio charged in connection with razor blades in mail.
Darren Nathan Barbarash age 28 and Rebecca Rubin age 23 are charged with
possession of explosive.

Police began a probe in 1995 after Toronto Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel
received a mouse trap rigged with razor blades in the mail.

Could it be that the purpose of your organization is to incite hatred
against people like Zundel

BTW. Why don’t you have a link to Zundels web side when you are so
interested about what Zundel is doing? Oh I got it; it is against the
law for him to spread his gospel?
Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:32 EDT 1998
Article: 73274 of bc.general
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Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
> >you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
> >Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
> >not making assumptions on this subject.
> 
> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> 
> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> 
> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> 
> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> him to document that comment.

Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
your task to find out!
> 
> As to the rest of the questions, pick #1, or #2 above.
> 
> >Perhaps you should find out about a Norman Finkelstein whose parents
> >were in Warsaw and in Ausschwitz. He said that Goldhagens book is a
> >disgrace and distortion of the truth. Do not take my word for it. It
> >cannot be true because I picked it off the German news groups.
> 
> What Mr. Finkelstein thinks about Goldhagen's book is of no interest
> to me - nor is it relevant to the discussion. The topic of that
> discussion was whether or not the book contained a blanket condemnation
> of the German people. Goldhagen's scholarship, and some of his
> conclusions, have been under academic attack since the book was
> published. (Contrary to what you seem to believe, I am not defending
> Goldhagen, although I believe he proved his thesis, albeit in somewhat
> sloppy fashion.)
> 
> >Nowhere did I  say that I read this book.
> 
> Correct. What you did, however, was repeat something you had read
> without verifying the information first. Had you done so - read
> Goldhagen, for instance, or checked the archives here, you would have
> quickly discovered that Doug Collins is no stranger to printing lies.
> If you'd like to discuss that, fine, but it's another topic, eh?

Does this now mean that news papers, radio, TV cannot be trusted? You
and cannot quote anything what is going on around us because it could
not be true? Amazing. 

Newspaper clipping in the Vancouver Province tells me that Collins won
his rights skirmish. It also says that his column was nasty but didn’t
violate the code.

It also say’s that the Canadian Jewish Congress filed a case and desist
order. Fact is that you people were trying to censor him because he was
talking about your holocaust industry.

> 
> >The other problem I have with you that you are posting articles about
> >the holocaust and like people to believe that everything you say is
> >true? Perhaps it is the wrong impression I am getting here? Are you
> >asking me not to believe what come along the way of the Internet because
> >it cannot be trusted? If that is the case that people should think
> >twice to visit your web site??
> 
> I do not demand that you accept everything I say as true, nor have I
> ever. I try my best to document my assertions, so that you can check
> my source and make up your own mind.
> 
> >What kind of a society we have today when people like you ask other
> >people not to believe anybody else and only you??
> 
> That sure would stink, Mr. Knoll. Fortunately, I don't do that, so the
> question is rhetorical.
> 
> >> But Mr. Knoll does not have a problem attributing statements to Daniel
> >> Goldhagen that he has never made. Interesting, that.
> 
> [Mr. Knoll declined comment]
> 
> >> >I know that you are an adult and realize that in this propaganda war
> >> >innocent people will always get hurt. You may say that to blame all the
> >> >Jews for killing Jesus is going overboard but what you people are doing
> 
> >> Do you blame Jews for killing Jesus, Mr. Knoll? I would find it
> >> strange, of course, but not unusual. The Catholic Church, however,
> >> disagrees, and it's clear they know something Mr. Knoll does not: That
> >> the Romans killed the man.
> >
> >Why should I have a problem with that? I am not a religious person. I am
> >only saying that for hundred of years Jews were persecuted because
> >Christians believed that the Jews were instrumental to get Jesus killed.
> >Another twisting around of words by you.
> 
> I will give you benefit of the doubt and accept your explanation of
> your intent. I apologise for the misinterpretation. Having said that,
> I must agree with you: Blaming all the Jews for killing Jesus is
> stupid and wrong. I have not, however, blamed all the Germans for the
> Holocaust. Neither, by the way, does Daniel Goldhagen.
> 
> Since neither I nor Goldhagen do or say the things you attribute to
> us, your comparision is meaningless.
> 
> >> >is exactly the same. After 1945 many people in Germany were made aware
> >> >what happened in this concentration camps and I am sure that all the
> >> >people I have know at this time did feel ashamed of this. There comes a
> >> >time when people start saying enough is enough and if this will not stop
> >> >and apparently it does not, this people will say this has to stop and
> >> >get angry.
> 
> >> Mr. Knoll suggests that if a historical fact makes him uncomfortable,
> >> it should be suppressed. Interesting mindset, I concede.
> 
> >Another distortion again.
> 
> Really? You suggested that Germans were all ashamed after the war, and
> that now they are angry because history is taught. I don't see any
> other way to interpret your remark.

It is the way it is done What you people are doing here is constantly
crying to get things your way. I f you were a child in a family who need
constant attention, I would not be surprised if your father comes along
and give you a smack in you behind.

> 
> >What I said it is your continues effort to give the same medication even
> >when the patient is healed.
> 
> Some patients, Mr. Knoll, are not healed. Witness the antisemitic
> assault on the net, and the denial of the Holocaust.

That is true. Take a look how some people are trying to fault immigrants
and racial minorities for everything what is wrong today. Looks like
Germany in the past were the Jews were the easy targed.
> 
> >Well here we go. The Nazis used the word LYING in connection with Jews
> >every time. Boy you have learned very fast to use this tactics have you?
> 
> Please document my lies, Mr. Knoll. Tell me where I have lied - A
> DejaNews reference would be useful.

It was this statement below I made when you accused me of lying. What I
am saying that you people are accusing others of lying and pointed out
that the Nazis were using the same words about the Jews.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 18:40:56 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
it is better to give you the whole story.

> 
> >You show me were I said that you in person would like to censor
> >holocaust deniers what I said that the people you represent have done
> >this by using laws who work in their favor.
> 
> You do such things continually, Mr. Knoll, with your sweeping
> generalites about censorship. Have you forgotten what you wrote so
> quickly, then?

 Surely, you do work for an organization and can hardly claim to be
neutral and only a one man show?

Was Sol Littman and B’Nai Brith instrumental for shutting down the
Oliver service supplier? Was  this action taken to censor him? 

> 
> >You sense of truthfulness is best see in you statement about me lying
> >about Goldhagens quote. I gave to you the e-mail address before perhaps
> >it is better to give you the whole story.
> 
> Sir, You have not yet, in this entire thread, quoted Goldhagen. Not
> once. Neither did Mr. Collins, neither did Mr. Slepokura.
> 
> Get used to it.

So what is your point Are you trying to tell me that Goldhagen never
wrote this book even when others say  he did. because the did not quote
him? Really!

> 
> [Doug Collins via Slepokura, offers us, in Mr. Slepokua's words,
> "as a censorship-busting exercise in free speech. "]
> 
> [Collins is opposed to Canada's anti-hate laws. So am I.]
> 
> [Collins says naughty things about Sol Littman. Mr. Littman says
> naughty things about me. Yawn.]
> 
> >It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
> >propaganda
> >put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
> >button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
> >used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
> 
> Gee, is Mr. Collins suggesting that the boneheads in Oliver, wearing
> their swastikas, were not "neo-nazis?" Racial supremacits.... Marc
> Lemire, for instance? Interesting view he has from whatever planet
> he's on.

Well next thing you going to be scare of news papers because some of the
stuff they write could hurt your feeling. I id not see on the news any
neo nazi’s living in Oliver.
> 
> >rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
> 
> What issues might those be, Mr. Collins?
> 
> [Collins complains we aren't Americans]
> 
> >a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be fired from their
> >jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, too, an author like
> >David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner speech about free
> >speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an immigration pretext -
> >while
> 
> David Irving was arrested because he lied upon entry. After his
> arrest, he lied under oath once again before the Canadian Immigration
> Adjudicator. You'd think a straight-shooter like Collins would at
> least be able to dig up some facts, eh, Mr. Knoll?
> 
> Here's the URL - you might want to tell Mr. Collins about it:
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/canada/iat-index.html
> 
> The jist of the Adudicator's report, however, sums it up:
> 
> "When viewed as a whole this evidence can lead to only one conclusion;
> the event was a total fabrication and never took place.
> I can only speculate that you and your supporters concocted your story
> to garner further publicity and prolong your stay
> in Canada, both of which you have done with some success.
>  That being the case I find that the action
> taken by Canadian Immigration authorities at Niagara Falls on November
> 1, 1992 was based on facts that at the time appeared
> indisputable and have now been found to have been valid, namely that
> you were at the time of your attempted entry to the United
> States on November 1, 1992 a person to whom a departure notice had
> been issued but who had not been granted lawful permission
> to be in the United States."
> 
> Funny Doug didn't mention it....
> 
> >many killers and crooks of all kinds are allowed to remain here and
> >while
> >Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by shootings. That's something else
> >the people of Oliver might think about when they sign petitions asking
> >the
> >Attorney General in effect to go after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet
> >service. But once again, let's not blame them. They are victims of a
> >massive propaganda campaign. That's what I was getting at when I wrote
> >that famous or infamous column on Hollywood Propaganda.
> 
> Mr. Collins told some real whoppers in that column, to be certain...
> claiming, for instance, that the International Red Cross had produced
> a report which, in fact, it had not produced.
> 
> [Collins objects to "Publishing False News" statute. So the the
> Supreme Court of Canada. Yawn.]
> 
> >But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
> >human
> >rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's called
> >now,
> >is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The Littmans think
> >it's
> >wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't they!.
> 
> Mr. Collins would rather citizens be left with no-where to turn...
> yessir, his brand of free speech does not include the right to be free
> from......
> 
> [Mr. Collins complains about BCHRC hearing, neglecting to mention that
> the hearing found his article was antisemitic but not hateful.]
> 
> >the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate about hate literature. How would
> >you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead and you
> >were
> >reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask
> >yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German, being told by
> >Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that Germans have a
> >pathological hatred of Jews? That's what he did in his book Hitler's
> >Willing Executioners. Isn't that hate literature? But there's not much
> 
> Mr. Knoll, please note that Mr. Collins did not quote Dr. Goldhagen.
> He made a false claim, but he did not quote. He could not have done
> so, because no such statement is to be found in the book.

Fact is that he mentioned Goldhagen and his book. It make no difference
wherever he was using a quote to prove his point. In all likelihood he
used his own interpretation to get a point across. 

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:33 EDT 1998
Article: 73282 of bc.general
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Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> > ...
> > I have a Paperback Book in my possession. I am talking about the book "
> > Other Losses" I had this book first from the library. This book was
> > reprinted in October 1989, February 1990 and May 1991. ISBN:
> > 0-7736-7309-1
> > There are many changes from the original I read in the library. As a
> > matter of fact the one I do have now is a revised edition. I am sure you
> > know what revised means.
> >
> > Mister Doug Collins Is a world War II veteran. He was taken Prisoner by
> > the Germans and liberated by the allies. He saw Bergen Belsen. Worked as
> > a political intelligence officer and the de Nazification program. There
> > is absolutely no question in my mind that that he is telling the truth.
> >
> > This man today, is hounded because he is say what some people do not
> > like to hear. With other words he is political not correct.
> 
> Werner: are you talking about Goldhagen's book, or is "Other Losses" by
> Doug Collins?  I am getting a little bit confused here.
> 
> If Collin's book is about the denazification program, I have no doubt
> that he has lots of material about injustice,  This doesn't change
> anything about the subject under discussion.  The fact that a lot of
> what was going on in Germany after WW2 was victors' revenge disguised as
> justice doesn't change the fact that bringing up events that happened
> under the Nazi regime in Germany does not constitute hatemongering

McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
revisions have been made to it.

I am sure that you and I do not support any group or person who are out
to make somebody’s live difficult because the have a different religion,
culture or color.

For me because I belong to a different culture group and experienced
hate against myselfe on account of this, It is very important to stamp
out hatred in any form.
Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:35 EDT 1998
Article: 73310 of bc.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> >Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> >could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
> >I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
> >revisions have been made to it.
> 
> No, sir, I am not. I am saying that you published a false description
> of Goldhagen's thesis, and did so in support of your "We Germans are
> so hard done by" routine.

Really? Feeling good twisting things around? Telling me your statements
are correct and others fabricate things?
> 
> Since the statement was false, and did not reflect Goldhagen's thesis
> (He most certainly does _not_ blame all Germans for the Holocaust!), I
> pointed it out to you.

Again your word against Collins word. If I believe you, I have to
believe Collins too. By the way Collins has earned his respect, have
you?
> 
> You then changed the subject, and began waving Bacque around. Let's
> not play Smoke and Mirrors here, Mr. Knoll.

That statement shows that you are not able to put your facts together or
by design ignore some of the statements I made. Let me repeat.

You informed my that you could find nowhere in Goldhagens book any
reverence to Collins statement. In return I gave a explanation that your
statement can be true because books are under constant revision. As an
example I gave a explanation what can happen by using Other losses as an
example Here is my quote again.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:33:20 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7



McVay could be telling the truth when he says that he cannot find this
quote in his book. Let me explain to you.
I have a Paperback Book in my possession. I am talking about the book "
Other Losses" I had this book first from the library. This book was
reprinted in October 1989, February 1990 and May 1991. ISBN:
0-7736-7309-1
There are many changes from the original I read in the library. As a
matter of fact the one I do have now is a revised edition. I am sure you
know what revised means.

This statement says it all. I am sure other people here reading your
posting will see what you are up too!

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:36 EDT 1998
Article: 73311 of bc.general
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:  <354E8839.9DECB02B@istar.ca> <6inhrs$ao8$1@news.trends.ca> <354F6C21.3851176A@istar.ca> <6iocea$i5n$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F6C21.3851176A@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> No, Sir, I accuse you of misrepresenting Dr. Goldhagen's words, which,
> >> clearly, you did. Whether it was deliberate or not, I do not know, but
> >> there is no doubt that you did so.
> 
> >How could I have done this? All I did quote a statement by Mister
> >Collins?
> 
> in a context of "Woe is me, I'm German, and everybody hates me," you
> clearly published this information to underscore your point. That you
> did not bother to validate or verify your information suggests that
> you believed it to be accurate. You quoted a lie, and you did not
> bother to check for yourself - either because, as noted, you believed
> Collins a credible source--a leap in its own right--or because you
> knew he was not representing the book accurately or honestly and did
> not care.

Perhaps you quote a lie every day and expect people to believe you?
Nowhere I said that everybody hates my Perhaps you feel that everybody
hates you? Why should I go and  verify information like this? Open your
eyes and have a look. This is a news group where people discuss the pro
and cons of any subject: You expect people to go to your web side  for
the same reason like many others to listen to your point of view. You
can convert some but not all.

It is your tactics to achieve your goal that are highly suspect.

> 
> Now. Which was it? Did you publish the misrepresentation believing it
> to be true, to be false, or of no importance either way? After all,
> you're the man who tried to convince us the whole world detested
> Germans, and you're the one that offered the misrepresentation.

You must be a real clown when you thing for one moment to get away with
your nonsense. You are trying to convince people that I am publishing
false news on purpose. In this your way to twist thing around.

I hope you go ahead with your style so people can really see what you
are. I am looking forward to your next response so you have a chance to
expose yourself and your supporters so people can see what tactics you
are using to suppress people with a different view.

Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
the get harder."

Go back to your bosses for more instructions before you make your next
move. I am waiting. I do know how to handle riffraff like you any day

> 
> >> I don't work for the chaps... Mr. Littman is hardly a fan :-) Mr.
> >> Matas and I often disagree with respect to Internet issues, but I
> >> don't work for him. (More misinformation from Mr. Knoll. What a
> >> surprise.)
> 
> > Perhaps you should talk to Raif Mair? A talk show host about
> >neutrality. He will tell you like me that it makes no difference how
> >honest you are. What counts is how the public is looking at it.
> 

Where did I say that I lied? Or encouraged you to lie?

> 
> >> >Now part of my previous posting you would not read the proper way.
> 
> >> [Mr. Knoll once again repeats a misrepresentation of Goldhagen's book,
> >> and fails to support his allegation that I wish to censor Holocaust
> >> deniers.]
> 
> >Welcome to the real world. We all are in the eyes of the public guilty
> >be association. The impression I am getting very often that you can be
> >the best person in this world and just because your ancestors done
> >something wrong, you are automatically guilty. Now you know how it
> >feels.
> 
> Mr. Knoll cannot document my alleged desire to "censor revisionists,"
> so he changes to "I am so hard done by..." and hopes we won't notice.


> 
> Mr. Knoll, you have lied about me. That's fine - lots of folks
> entertain themselves that way, and I'm used to it. I take it as my
> duty, however, to point out that you have lied - for the record, so to
> speak.

Grow up for once in your live and be honest with yourself  A record in
your twisted mind? Perhaps you can point out to my where I said that you
are lying? It would be very interesting. I can check back till 1997 in
my records.

> 
> Your avoidance, Mr. Knoll, does not oscure the reality that
> you are completely incapable of sustaining your lie. Not only have I
> never called for censorship of Holocaust deniers, on or off the net, I
> have actively campaigned against such censorship. I have done so in
> Parliament, in the press, and on national television.
> 
> As to why you chose to lie about this, I will not speculate. That you
> did so is clear.

You know something BOY? It took me another 20 minutes to find my quote
of which you said that I said that you are lying. Here it is Look way
down. You see the words:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:56:21 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354E6E28.AAFAFF33@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >You say that neither Collins or Sleporkura have read this book? How do
> >you know that? I do not know Mister Slepokura but I am sure that Mister
> >Collins as a former war corresponded  knows how to research his work and
> >not making assumptions on this subject.
> 
> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> 
> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> 
> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> 
> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> him to document that comment.

Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
your task to find out!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To tell you the truth. You are not a worthy person. Actually you stink.
Next time you pull a stunt like this, let me know that I can pinch my
nose. Good by.

Werner Knoll
The very ink with which all history is written is merely fluid
prejudice.
Mark Twain


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:38 EDT 1998
Article: 73312 of bc.general
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Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> > ...
> > > Werner: are you talking about Goldhagen's book, or is "Other Losses" by
> > > Doug Collins?  I am getting a little bit confused here.
> > >
> > > If Collin's book is about the denazification program, I have no doubt
> > > that he has lots of material about injustice,  This doesn't change
> > > anything about the subject under discussion.  The fact that a lot of
> > > what was going on in Germany after WW2 was victors' revenge disguised as
> > > justice doesn't change the fact that bringing up events that happened
> > > under the Nazi regime in Germany does not constitute hatemongering
> >
> > McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> > Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> 
> McVau said he could not find the satement in GOLDHAGEN's book (at least
> that's how I interpreted his bpost and I am pretty sure that's that what
> he meant).  If you read his post any other way I stronglu suspect that
> you didn't really rerad what you were replying to (i remember reading
> something like "I have Goldhagen's book in freont of me and I can't find
> what you quote";  I also seem to remember that in your post he was
> replying to you only mentioned Goldhagen, but not Collins)

That is true;

My response to a question by John Angus on:

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:40 EDT 1998
Article: 73328 of bc.general
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Subject: Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:229208 van.general:54025 can.general:117837 bc.general:73328 ab.general:58715

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354F60D5.2B219AE6@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> There are two possible answers, Mr. Knoll:
> >>
> >> 1. They have read the book, and are deliberately misrepresenting it,
> >>    since no such assertion appears in the book, or
> >>
> >> 2. They have not read the book, and are deliberately lying about its
> >>    contents, since no such assertion appears in the book.
> >>
> >> 3. If Mr. Collins is asserting that Dr. Goldhagen says such things in
> >> his book, then Mr. Collins is  not telling the truth. Go ahead - ask
> >> him to document that comment.
> 
> >Well perhaps the both are lying. But than again you ask me to take your
> >word and you could be lying too. Well I do not have the habit to accuse
> >people of lying because they the have a different opinion. Obviously it
> >is people like you who are interested to bring him down. It should be
> >your task to find out!
> 
> But I did _not_ ask you to simply take my word for it, Mr. Knoll. On
> the contrary, I offered you a perfect and polite opportunity to prove
> your case by citing Golghagen's book. You declined to do so. This is
> not about opinions, it is about what _is_ in the book and what is
> _not_ in the book.
> 
> If you say that Goldhagen said this - that he held all Germans
> responsible for the Holocaust - then it should be very simple to
> support this allegation with cold, black and white type.
> 
> I want to bring Collins "down," Mr. Knoll? He's been down for years. I
> simply point it out when he writes his little fibs.
> 
> My task is to challenge the assertion, so that people will understand
> that not only is the statement a misrepresentation, it could not have
> been made by anyone who read the book unless it was done after a
> deliberate decision to lie about what was said.
> 
> By the way, Mr. Knoll, I'm still waiting for you to tell me who the
> "you people" are you often mention during conversations with me. Do
> you suppose, now that we've established that Mr. Collin's journalistic
> credibility isn't quite what you suggest, we could get to that?

Really? You like to bring Collins down? Let me tell you boy Mister
Collins gets more credibility by the minute when you are writing like
this.

You people?
It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your own. So
why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so you can
answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!

Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence
people. Who are this people in your organization with so much power?

You know? You are giving Jewish people  bad name. The Jewish people I
met were smart decent people. You do not have this qualification.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:40 EDT 1998
Article: 73340 of bc.general
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Ken McVay wrote:
> 
> In article <354FF663.412E8D4C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I had said]
> 
> >> in a context of "Woe is me, I'm German, and everybody hates me," you
> >> clearly published this information to underscore your point. That you
> >> did not bother to validate or verify your information suggests that
> >> you believed it to be accurate. You quoted a lie, and you did not
> >> bother to check for yourself - either because, as noted, you believed
> >> Collins a credible source--a leap in its own right--or because you
> >> knew he was not representing the book accurately or honestly and did
> >> not care.
> 
> >Perhaps you quote a lie every day and expect people to believe you?
> 
> Is that what you are hoping to accomplish here by repeating your
> misrepresentation of Goldhagen, Mr. Knoll?
> 
> >Nowhere I said that everybody hates my Perhaps you feel that everybody
> >hates you? Why should I go and  verify information like this? Open your
> 
> You quoted it, and did so because you believed it to be true. I
> pointed out that it is not true, and you do not seem interested in
> discovering whether or not I am correct. That's fine, except that you
> seem to want to avoid discussing why you now won't admit that you
> don't know what the hell Goldhagen had to say. Please note that Mr.
> Sepokura also did not tell us where such an assertion could be found.

You have to run this by me again: You like me to admit that I do not
know what Goldhagen had to say? Should I buy everybody’s book to find
out what they have to say? Listen boy Mister Collins made reference to
mister Goldhagen and now you are trying to deny me the right to say what
he had to say about him. Are you sure that you have all your faculties? 
Mr Slepokuo had the courtesy to post Mister Collins speech which made
reverence to Goldhagen. Now a dirt like you comes along that I should
not use this reverence because it does not fit into your hate
propoganty? Right? Oh I know, now you are going to tell me that YOU
PEOPLE are the chosen ones and have special right which cannot be given
to others. What a clown!!

It was not Slepokuos job to find out if collins was telling the truth.
Nowhere did he say the Collins was right or wrong on this!

> 
> >eyes and have a look. This is a news group where people discuss the pro
> >and cons of any subject: You expect people to go to your web side  for
> >the same reason like many others to listen to your point of view. You
> >can convert some but not all.
> 
> Mr. Knoll, we are not talking about my website, we are talking about
> misrepresentation of an author's thesis. Can you not stick to the
> subject?

See above.

> 
> >It is your tactics to achieve your goal that are highly suspect.
> 
> My desire is to demonstrate that you say things which are not true,
> and expect us to take it upon faith that the data is correct. Had you
> published a citation along with the quote, you would have at least
> saved yourself the embarrassment of repeating a lie.
> 
> >> Now. Which was it? Did you publish the misrepresentation believing it
> >> to be true, to be false, or of no importance either way? After all,
> >> you're the man who tried to convince us the whole world detested
> >> Germans, and you're the one that offered the misrepresentation.
> >
> >You must be a real clown when you thing for one moment to get away with
> >your nonsense. You are trying to convince people that I am publishing
> >false news on purpose. In this your way to twist thing around.
> 
> No, Sir, I am trying to get you to tell me which was the case. Did you
> know the assertion was false, or did you accept it's validity on faith?
> If you accepted it on faith, I should think you would be unhappy with
> Mr. Collins for asserting untrue statements.

Did I know that this assertion was false? That is easy to say. Right now
you are telling me that it is false. Why should I trust you? because you
say so? Suppose Collins uses the same argument, what happen than?

On faith? What nonsense. I read news papers every day and make the
decision what is interesting  to talk about.

> 
> >I hope you go ahead with your style so people can really see what you
> >are. I am looking forward to your next response so you have a chance to
> >expose yourself and your supporters so people can see what tactics you
> >are using to suppress people with a different view.
> 
> I have no wish to suppress your view, Mr. Knoll. I can't imagine
> anyone would want to do that. I am trying to get you to concede that
> you published something that, when challenged, cannot be shown as
> anything but misrepresentation.

Anything I or you say can be challenged by people who have a different
opinion. Do you think for one moment that this will stop me or others to
have a opinion?
> 
> >Remember what John F Kennedy said about some Germans. "Berliners are
> >like eggs. When you boil them, they get  hard. If you boil them longer,
> >the get harder."
> 
> I'm not interested in where you came from, Mr. Knoll, but I am
> interested in pointing it out when you misrepresent Goldhagen, or lie
> about me. Your whopper about my wishing to censor Holocaust deniers
> being a glaring case in point, and one you have been avoiding since
> asked to back up your writing with some facts. Consistent behavior in
> your case, I must say.

I don not particular care if you are interested or not. Your action here
clearly shows that you do not approve of what other people have to say
when it does not fit in you plans. 


> 
> >Go back to your bosses for more instructions before you make your next
> >move. I am waiting. I do know how to handle riffraff like you any day
> 
> I'm my own boss, Mr. Knoll. Now that we've got that out of the way,
> can you tell me who that "you people" is you keep referring to, or are
> you going to run away from that one, too?

The only time you are your own boss when you go to your toilet to have a
piss. The rest of  the time you are playing a team song. Go and grow up.
Telling me that you have no connections is absurd. 

> 
> >Where did I say that I lied? Or encouraged you to lie?
> 
> You have said that I want to censor Holocaust deniers, Mr. Knoll. That
> is a lie. You, having said it, were asked to explain. You failed to do
> so, and ignored the request. That tends to make things pretty clear
> where your dedication to truth is concerned, does it not, Sir?

Lets get it in your head, you are a nobody to begin with and are acting
as a mouthpiece for a big organization. It doesn’t matter what you say.
Fact is that your sponsors are trying to censor people you do not agree
with. You do not like what Collins has to say and you  made sure that
Zundel is silenced. As you noticed I was using the word YOU.

You are part of an organization wherever you like it or not. Life with
it

Perhaps no is the time for you to make the proper exit. Do it soon, so I
can put the manhole cover back on, Will you?

Werner Knoll
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon, Sayings


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:41 EDT 1998
Article: 73350 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <3550D3E4.F759C18A@istar.ca>
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Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
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Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
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Patrick Lepine wrote:
> 
> In article <6ip65q$kie@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, dswan@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan) wrote:
> >Werner, don't hold your breath in anticipation of any
> >apology or retraction on the part of Mr. McVay.  He has
> >learned to follow the same policy as Israel:  Offer no apologies,
> >and never admit error.
> >
> >If, in any thread, he does not see the opportunity to score
> >points, he will simply cease replying rather than look weak.
> >
> >
> In this case, it's merely a convenient coincidence that he has nothing to
> apologize for, right?

Maybe McVay has to win at all cost? Or he is afraid to show his
weakness? Or the reverse gear in his car is gone? Or he feels things 
could go out of control. Perhaps he has no instructions from higher up
what to do next. So many reasons and no easy answers. Could it be that
Stalin is beyond his plan not to listen to somebody else’s IDEAS?  
Naaa.  

He is just ignorant.

Werner Knoll
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, so why should we let them have ideas?"
Joseph Stalin


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:41 EDT 1998
Article: 73363 of bc.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <355067AF.AC1767B8@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >You people?
> 
> Darn! I thought you were going to tell us who "you people" was...
> Shucks.
> 
> >It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your own. So
> >why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so you can
> >answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!
> 
> I have no sponsor, Mr. Knoll. I began doing this long before anyone
> but me gave a damn. Do you see banner advertising on Nizkor's pages,
> Mr. Knoll?
> 
> If you want me to accept that those who donate funds for my work are
> "sponsors," then there are rather a lot of them... I have a list of
> 500 or so, which hasn't been updated in two years. I haven't met more
> than a handful of them - and lots of names on the list look a lot like
> "Wong," of "Robinson," so I don't know what to deduce. Are these the
> "you people" you mean, or do you mean the Roman Catholic chritable
> foundation in Toronto that funded major html work last year? Are the
> kind Sisters "you people?"
> 
> >Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence


Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??

You know the saying Whose bread I eat his song I sing BOY? What would
you do without your sponsors BOY?
To make your day BOY I will post Collins speech again and again till it
comes out of your ear BOY What filthy person are you anyway??
Here comes your wake up call again and let see how far you will go with
your distortions next time. You stink, take a bath you need it BOY.


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:43 EDT 1998
Article: 73373 of bc.general
Message-ID: <35512E43.1E316688@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

> >Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??
> 
> Where did someone suggest Mr. Knoll denied the Holocaust? Who is this
> "BOY?" Is he one of the "you people?" [Film at Eleven]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:

: Mr. Knoll, in common with many Holocaust deniers, has no difficulty
: lying through his teeth, even about things which have clearly revealed
: him as a liar, in front of tens of thousands of people. Their
: Holocaust "scholarship" often works on precisely the same level.
-------------------------


On Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?
This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:16:44 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's

> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.

The next episode: You boy are saying that I quoted Goldhagen. Where are
the quotation marks?
Were is what my dictionary say. You Ken BOY are a fraud and a disgrace
to your community

Quote: Somebodys word repeated exactly by another person from a person
pasage  or speech.

Quotation marks: One pair of marks to mark used to indicate the
beginning and end of a quotqtion.

One more time Collins speech for you.

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:43 EDT 1998
Article: 73398 of bc.general
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.89.75.15!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3551DA35.FD3BBD48@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:  <354E2610.D205CCE6@istar.ca> <354F587A.59889C24@netcom.ca> <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca> <6iocns$ib0$1@news.trends.ca> <354FF678.4AAB9D04@istar.ca> <6ip65q$kie@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <3550ac3f.0@skyview.icrossroads.com> <3550D3E4.F759C18A@istar.ca> <35515707.0@skyview.icrossroads.com>
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Patrick Lepine wrote:
> 

> >Maybe McVay has to win at all cost? Or he is afraid to show his
> >weakness? Or the reverse gear in his car is gone?
> 
> 
> >He is just ignorant.
> >
> 
> Perhaps you need to reread his posts more carefully. You took a third hand
> quote and posted it as the truth.  You were called on it, and the best you can
> come up with so far is the excuse that they weren't your words, you were just
> quoting someone who quoted someone else.  _You_ are responsible for what you
> write, not the person you mistakenly believe.


Sunday May 3 1998 10:09:19
========================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Note quotation marks from willing to Germans? Oviosly it did revere to
Collins speech.

Sunday May 3  1998 19:09:46
=======================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: 3 May 1998 19:09:46 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll  
wrote:

>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)

Sunday May 3 1998 23:13:49
=========================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:13:49 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
> >Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
> >German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
> >"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
> >promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
> >CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
> >Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
> 
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
=============
Now what is this going to tell you? There was a posting.
There was a Mister John Angus inquiring. 
There was McVay to like to have his way
There was the answer where I got this quote from.

McVay is actually lucky that this is not a real live situation and
because of his holocaust industrial sponsors backing he can mouth off as
much as he likes. In al likelihood he is practicing to become a lawyer 
and likes to charge me with spreading false news next.


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:44 EDT 1998
Article: 73399 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <3551DA40.3E2A2605@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Mr. Knoll refuses to define "you people" - again
References:  <35510A6D.4AFA50C2@istar.ca> <6ir5qt$hgn$1@news.trends.ca> <35512E43.1E316688@istar.ca> <6ire9s$kbp$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <35512E43.1E316688@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> >
> >> >Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??
> >>
> >> Where did someone suggest Mr. Knoll denied the Holocaust? Who is this
> >> "BOY?" Is he one of the "you people?" [Film at Eleven]

Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:

: Mr. Knoll, in common with many Holocaust deniers, has no difficulty
: lying through his teeth, even about things which have clearly revealed
: him as a liar, in front of tens of thousands of people. Their
: Holocaust "scholarship" often works on precisely the same level.

I am having a difficult time holding my nose with both hands. That why I
cut most of your smelly parts out.You got this BOY.


Sunday May 3 1998 10:09:19
========================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Note quotation marks from willing to Germans? Oviosly it did revere to
Collins speech.

Sunday May 3  1998 19:09:46
=======================

Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: 3 May 1998 19:09:46 GMT
From: kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll  
wrote:

>This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
>Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
>German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
>"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
>promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
>CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
>Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews," Mr. Knoll.

(I will save you some time, Mr. Knoll. No such statement will be found
in the book, but don't let that stop you from misquoting the
author...)

Sunday May 3 1998 23:13:49
=========================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:13:49 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
> >Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
> >German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
> >"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
> >promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
> >CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
> >Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.
> 
> I have Dr. Goldhagen's book before me. Please tell me which page
> includes the statement that "all Germans have a pathological hatred of
> Jews," Mr. Knoll.

A Mister Oerest Slepokura quotet A Mister Doug Collins speech from March
21, 1998.
In there and this are the words:

How would you feel if you were a German born long after Hitler was dead
and you were reminded every day that your grandfather did the wrong
thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if you were a young German,
being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish professor in New York, that
Germans have a pathalogigal hatred of Jews?  That’s what he did in his
book "Hitler’s Willing Executioners". But there’s not much fuss about
that.
=============
Now what is this going to tell you? There was a posting.
There was a Mister John Angus inquiring. 
There was McVay to like to have his way
There was the answer where I got this quote from.

McVay you are actually lucky that this is not a real live situation and
because of his holocaust industrial sponsors backing you can mouth off
as
much as you like. In all likelihood you are practicing to become a
lawyer 
and like to charge me with spreading false news next.That what happen to
Ernest Zundel?????

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:48 EDT 1998
Article: 73403 of bc.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> >I am having a difficult time holding my nose with both hands. That why I
> >cut most of your smelly parts out.You got this BOY.

Still holding my nose.



The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> to "boy," or "you people?")

The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them. 

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:58 EDT 1998
Article: 73410 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <355229E5.D91863DA@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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Subject: Collins speech not seen by McVay ????
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Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:36:28 GMT
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3551EE42.302F200C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Still holding my nose.

> Mr. Knoll, in common with Holocaust deniers, often finds that
> resorting to outright lies is easier than trying to support claptrap
> with documentation.

Now you are telling me what your real name is. Mister Ken Claptrap. 
The mouth in motion man of the year. 


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:14:59 EDT 1998
Article: 73417 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <35524681.5D0676B4@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: bc.general
Subject: Re: unsigned traffic ticket
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You do not have to sign.
Werner Knoll

Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> I recently received a traffic ticket, and later on discovered that
> I wasn't asked to sign on the bottom, beneath "I hereby acknowledge
> receipt of a copy of this violation ticket". Does this mean that I
> can ignore the ticket without automatically being assumed guilty for
> non-payment?


From werk@istar.ca Fri May  8 19:15:00 EDT 1998
Article: 73420 of bc.general
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!newsfeed.wli.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <35524BC3.6514134E@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: bc.general,can.politics
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
References:   
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What a waste of energy. Reminds me of 1945 when we said with a grin on
our face: : Und wir haben doch Gesiegt" (We still did win)

Only difference is. we did know that it was a sad situation. Perhaps you
could help people in need with your talent

Werner Knoll 



Bruce Becker wrote:
> 
> In article ,
> Jason Arron Black  wrote:
> |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> |                            THE FREEDOM-SITE
> |    http://www.freedomsite.org     --     webmaster@freedomsite.org
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>   /(_______________________________________________________________________)\
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From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:26 EDT 1998
Article: 117957 of can.general
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Message-ID: <3553A009.AF52A0B9@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.general,bc.general,can.politics
Subject: Re: Knoll: Clearing away the smoke and mirrors
References:  <3553025D.524FB545@istar.ca> <6ivdn3$jk$1@news.trends.ca> <35536C36.E2408419@istar.ca> <6j006r$6bu$1@news.trends.ca>
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Xref: trends.ca can.general:117957 bc.general:73497 can.politics:229745

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <35536C36.E2408419@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> [Knoll actually shoots himself in the foot by claiming that Sol
> Littman was "acting" when he wrote his letter condemning me for my
> free speech stand]

There is no reverence In my posting Subject: Re: Knoll: Clearing away
the smoke and mirrors. 
I hope you do not think that you are the only one who gets his
attention?
Ever hear the word sanctimonious? Oh never mind, You know what it means 
do you? It is sort of pretending to be sincere but in fact you have 
something else in mind. Never happen to you, you say? Really? I
must be lying again here.

 
> 
> >> You are indeed lying again, Mr. Knoll, but, at this late stage of your
> >> disintegration, that is not a surprise to anyone. Real "The
> >> Gatekeeper," from the book "Fuzzy Logic" and see if you can comprehend
> >> how silly you are making yourself look.
> 
> >Not a show hey? always the truth and nothing put the truth. :-D
> 
> Unless the author is Werner Knoll, liar and plagarist.


When you make a reverence. Please quote the subject ID date and time so
other people can recheck it too. After all an outstanding guy like you
would like people to look it up! Am I lying here again?

Now here you go again. Making me look into my dictionary. Plagiarist.
(An idea expression taken from another and use as ones own).

Oh I got it. It is sort of  Farley Mowat comparing the Newfoundland seal
hunt to the Holocaust? Well Rabbi Abraham Cooper, of the Simon
Wiesenthal Centre straighten him out on this one. when he told him that
this is a Jewish trade mark and they have the monopoly on this one.

See Vancouver’s Province Monday December 22, 1997. I am lying in all
likelihood again.

Ready for the next show. I am up by 5:00 AM tomorrow morning.

Werner Knoll
"Ultimately most problems can be solved by applying a Large Brick to the
Correct Skull.  Difficulties
arise when you don't have a brick or can't find the right skull.  The
Devil is always in the details."


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:26 EDT 1998
Article: 117958 of can.general
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Message-ID: <3553A8FB.821C9B99@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics
Subject: Re: Knoll: Clearing away the smoke and mirrors
References:  <3553025D.524FB545@istar.ca> <6ivdn3$jk$1@news.trends.ca> <35536C36.E2408419@istar.ca> <6ivvuk$646$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
 
> >That is true. Like I said at the beginning this was not a quote but my
> >own interpretation.
> 
> Mr. Knoll seems confused. First he publishes what he claims is a
> verbatum speech delivered by Mr. Collins. Now he claims that what he
> attributed to Mr. Collins was really his own interpretation. Was he
> lying the first time, or is he lying now?

Ken, Ken, Ken. You have to get a hold of yourself. This is not the end
of this world. There is still time to the year 2000. Posting everything
in one day will make you dizzy. I do not want to loose you before
September first.
When you like the magic word lying so much, why not get a sand box so
you can throw sand in the same time. Please do not piss in it. As your
parents to lift you up on the toilet seat before we play. I said that in
me first posting the paragraph contained more than the reference to
Goldhagen.

> 
> >> You plagarized Collins' work and presented it as your own. That was on
> >> May 3, Mr. Knoll, and I think that's quite interesting, what with all
> >> your squirming about how you had attributed it... shame on you, sir.
> 
> [Knoff admits plagarizing Collins' work and presenting it as his own]

> Unless the author is Werner Knoll, liar and plagarist.


When you make a reverence. Please quote the subject ID date and time so
other people can recheck it too. After all an outstanding guy like you
would like people to look it up! Am I lying here again?

Now here you go again. Making me look into my dictionary. Plagiarist.
(An idea expression taken from another and use as ones own).

Oh I got it. It is sort of  Farley Mowat comparing the Newfoundland seal
hunt to the Holocaust? Well Rabbi Abraham Cooper, of the Simon
Wiesenthal Centre straighten him out on this one. when he told him that
this is a Jewish trade mark and they have the monopoly on this one.

See Vancouver’s Province Monday December 22, 1997. I am lying in all
likelihood again.


> 
> >Why are you so worried about this if you did not like the reverence to
> >Goldhagen in the first place. The Indians have a saying for guy’s like
> >You. White man speak wit forget tongue.
> 
> I am not the least worried about it, Mr. Knoll. I simply want folks to
> understand what sort of a man you are. You lie without a second
> thought, and you steal the words of others and call them your own. Not
> to worry, really.

=======================================================================
Subject: Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
Date:  Sun, 03 May 1998 10:09:19 -0700
From:  Werner Knoll 
Organization:  The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.politics, van.general, can.general, bc.general,
ab.general

John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group. But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong. if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:27 EDT 1998
Article: 117961 of can.general
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Message-ID: <3553B7B0.8ABC9C38@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
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Newsgroups: can.general,bc.general,can.politics
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3553A009.AF52A0B9@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I note that Mr. Knoll plagarized text from a speech made by someone
> else]
> 
> >> Unless the author is Werner Knoll, liar and plagarist.
> 
I found you reference using ID number. However for a quick find the more
info the better.
Stealing words?  You do like people to find info. Quickly? Do you? Why
don’t you ask Collins about it. Here you are worried about Collins and
in
the same time you wish he is not around.

Here again is  Collins.

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:28 EDT 1998
Article: 117971 of can.general
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From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> I have been concerned that I might have wrongly accused Mr. Knoll of
> plagarism, and returned to DejaNews for a closer look.
> 
> Mr. Knoll, in fact, did not plagarize Collins, and I was mistaken.
> 
> Mr. Knoll used a phrase which Collins used - claiming that Goldhagen
> says all Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews, and I, in my
> haste to point out another fault, saw plagarism where none existed.
> 
> For that, I apologise, without reservation. Acting in haste is not
> always a wise thing to do.

Thanks. Now perhaps we can go to address the real issues of this world.
That his hunger, starvation discrimination and hate.

I must say however that I am at times partly to blame for your
difficulty in understanding me. my thought processes and reasoning are
not always the same as some Canadians have. Many times people have the
impression that I must be opposed at all cost because what I am GOING to
say must be wrong.

People at times do or can not understand that when I had an disagreement
with a person, that I am still agree with him on issues we have a common
ground.

I hope that you have no hard feelings and we can talk again. As for my
part, I was always ready and willing to listen to both sides.

Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:28 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3553CB1E.CDB64460@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [my apology]
> 
> >Thanks. Now perhaps we can go to address the real issues of this world.
> >That his hunger, starvation discrimination and hate.
> 
> We aren't through yet, Mr. Knoll. You lied about me, more than once,
> and I will continue to point that out to you until you stop doing it.
> 
> >I must say however that I am at times partly to blame for your
> >difficulty in understanding me. my thought processes and reasoning are
> >not always the same as some Canadians have. Many times people have the
> >impression that I must be opposed at all cost because what I am GOING to
> >say must be wrong.
> 
> When you say that I want to do something that the record clearly shows
> I am absolutely opposed to doing, I will oppose you. I am not fond of
> being lied about. Yes, Mr. Knoll, it happens a lot, but usually it's
> the whackos on the extreme right, taking a break between Sieg Hiels!
> to chat...you don't seem to fit that mold, but your tendency to make
> _real_ stupid and sweeping general assumptions when you have
> absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about tends to make
> one wonder - particularly as you seem fixated on the Jews, seeing
> sinister connections and overtones when in fact none exist.
> 
> You are quick - and correct - to defend minorities in your community,
> or at least you say that you are, and I have no reason to disbelieve
> you on that score.... but when it comes to the Jews, or anyone, it
> would appear, who takes umbrage at your lies about them, rational
> thought processes seem to flee from you with lightspeed.
> 
> You seem to harbour a paranoid's view of some cohesive Jewish "whole"
> that has so much power it can do as it pleases. As anyone who has
> worked with Jewish organizations will tell you, including most of the
> folks who _work_ for these organizations , will get quite a
> chuckle out of that one.

How come that this are lies about Jews when there is so much evidence
to support my view on this. How much is there in the news about the
gypsies, and other undesired people? How come there is practical nothing
in the news. When I say that in all this years there was only one wheel
who got all the grease than it the Jewish group. Take for example Israel
and how the treat the Palestinians. If any other nation would do some
thing like this, especial any left leaning government, there would be an
embargo and a horrendous  propaganda against this state. I could almost
say there is no beep about Israel and the Palestinians in the news media
about this today. How come? Is it possible that the press has been so
much under pressure to say as little as possible  about this?

Talking about lying about you. Frankly speaking, your statements about
you being against censorship means nothing. All you can tell me that I
am wrong in my assertion about you. You see if you would not have any
association and sympathy with your backers than it would be a different
story. You can say whatever you want but the perception will always be
there. That is politics. Take a look how Dave Barrett he is looked at by
the news media. It would make no difference how clean he is and sincere
but the perception is what counts at he end. So you better learn to live
with it. Finally it is not what you are saying but what you do or will
do that what counts and I can tell you the jury is still out on this.

> 
> The differences among religious Jews, viewed through the foggy lens of
> an outsider, seem to me quite sufficient to insure that no such
> cohesive coordination either exists or could exist.

What I do like about the Jews? The do not try to convert me to their
religion and have no history of torturing people to become Jews.
> 
> In short, Jews aren't a whole lot different than the rest of us, Mr.
> Knoll.
> 
> >I hope that you have no hard feelings and we can talk again. As for my
> >part, I was always ready and willing to listen to both sides.
> 
> I'll get back to you, Mr. Knoll - when I accused you falsely, I
> apologized within hours. You, on the other hand, have been lying about
> me for a month or so, so it's reasonable to assume that I will remind
> you upon my return.

You consider that when I do not agree with your statements that I must
be lying. All you can say that I am wrong in this. That is the proper
word for this. It would be different if you said; Yes Ken told me that
he is for censorship.
> 
> I'm flying to St. John tomorrow, for a meeting, and then to Vancouver
> Island, and then to Washington, DC, and then to Toronto. I won't be
> spending a lot of time chatting with you. When I return to full time
> computer work, towards the 25-26th of the month, I'll get back to you.

 Heck this is going to be a long time for me. I guess I just have to
wait for your return.

Werner Knoll
The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take
a mean advantage of them.
P.  G. Wodehouse


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Daniel Swan wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) wrote:
> 
> : Mister Hall. There were many time we were on the opposite side of the
> : fence. You have your view and I have mine. We however both have one
> : thing in common. You and I never once were trying to silence each other,
> : no matter how much we fought each other.
> 
> Werner, several times you have implied that Mr. McVay attempts to
> silence people, but you are misled.  McVay does not attempt
> to silence so much as he seeks to discredit.

What would be the results or the purpose to discredit someone?.

I said many times to McVay that when I use the word "YOU"  or "YOU
GUY’S" that I do not necessarily mean him in person but a group of
people he is associated with. There is no thought in my mind that his
supporters are silencing people. One only has to take a look at Sol
Littman, B'nai Brith's  and others who were successful in shutting web
sides  and service providers down. It does not matter what methods the 
used, it is the end result what counts.


Werner Knoll


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:29 EDT 1998
Article: 118044 of can.general
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Orest Slepokura wrote:
> 
> Unsettling Remembrance Day Thoughts
> 
> by Doug Collins
> 
> [North Sore News, November 10, 1993]
> 
> >HERE'S A Remebrance Day thought for you.
> 
> The war ended nearly 50 years ago but that news hasn't reached a lot of
> people. They carrying "fighting."
> 
> "They" are pressure groups like the Canadian Jewish Congress that have
> pushed Ottawa into the pursuit of war criminals, real or imagined.
> 
> The legislation permitting this witch hunt was passed retroactively, which
> in itself is a crime. It also concerned matters that took place on another
> continent, were not in Canadian jurisdiction, and were not crimes in
> Canadian
> law.
> 
> If nothing else, the false charges brought against John Demjanjuk should
> have persuaded us it is time to cease this nonsense. But our new
> Parliament will be just as cowardly as the last. Depend on it.
> 
> Demjanjuk was said to have been Ivan the Terrible, a sadistic Ukrainian
> who co-operated with the Nazis in the deaths of thousands of Jews in
> Treblinka concentration camp.
> 
> He was extradited from the U.S. to Israel in 1986, was found guilty in
> 1988, and sentenced to death. But he was released when five Israeli appeal
> court judges found *unanimously* that he was not the man in question.
> 
> He had spent 16 years before American and Israeli courts, five of them in
> solitary confinement. And he would have been hanged had it not been for
> the collapse of the U.S.S.R., which led to papers becoming available
> showing he was not Ivan.
> 
> It was through the efforts of the Office of Special Investigations (OSI)
> in the U.S. that Demjanjuk lost his citizenship and was extradited. That
> same OSI is now under investigation for having withheld vital evidence.
> 
> The Israeli appeal judges had guts, because the mob wanted blood.
> Demjanjuk's Jewish lawyer had acid thrown in his face. A previous defence
> lawyer died in mysterious circumstances.
> 
> When the appeal verdict was announced, the revenge artists went beserk.
> 
> They howled that if Demjanjuk wasn't Ivan the Terrible then he was guilty
> anyway of having been a guard in Sobibor, another camp, and should be
> tried again.
> 
> Canadian columnist Peter Worthington's comment was, "Myopic zealots are
> hurting the very cause they supposedly espouse, by behaving as the Nazis
> did."
> 
> In the U.S. Pat Buchanan was attacked by Jewish organizations as "an
> apologist for Nazi war criminals" for having stood up for justice.
> Demjanjuk's American lawyer was called a Nazi.
> 
> All of which reminds me of the attacks on Doug Christie here in Canada for
> having defended Zundel and Keegstra.
> 
> After 50 years, "witnesses" are useless.
> 
> In 1968 I attended a reunion with Americans I had been with during the war
> for nearly a year. I couldn't recognize half of them.
> 
> Five witnesses swore Demjanjuk was Ivan.
> 
> "I saw his eyes, his murderous eyes," said one.
> 
> In another U.S. case, 12 witnesses swore that a man named Frank Walus had
> been a Nazi SS brigadier responsible for the deaths of thousands.
> 
> At the last minute, documentary evidence showed that Walus had been 17
> years of age at the time and a prisoner of war in Poland. But his life was
> ruined. He had three heart attacks and legal costs left him penniless.
> 
> In Canada, a jury found Imre Finta not guilty. He is the Hungarian police
> captain, now 80, accused of rounding up Jews for deportation to Germany.
> 
> The pressure groups demanded that the verdict be appealed and Kim Campbell
> buckled.
> 
> The appeal is now in progress. But so far none of the few cases brought to
> court in Canada have led to a conviction.
> 
> A Canadian judge has even awarded legal costs of $150,000 to Michael
> Pawlowski, a man against whom charges were dropped.
> 
> All this makes Canadian Nazi-hunter Sol Littman unhappy.
> 
> We should have an OSI too, he laments, because that way the criminal
> courts are not involved. In the civil courts it would be easier to get the
> right results.
> 
> Why have any prosecutions at all? Why not just point the finger?
> 
> When the British passed war-crime legistlation in 1990, it was opposed by
> Britain's Chief Rabbi and by the Lords.
> 
> Lord Hailsham's comment was: "These people want a lynching party."
> 
> Lord Shawcross was the U.K.'s chief prosecutor at Nuremberg and he said:
> 
> "Most MPs who favour it were five years old at the outbreak of war,"
> adding that the hangings at Nuremberg did not deter the odious crimes of
> Idi Amin, Pol Pot or the Khmer Rouge.
> 
> The Demjanjuk story would make a great movie. Holywood being what it is,
> though, you'll never see it.
> 
> A personal note. In 1940, in France, 137 in my infantry battalion of 600
> were killed. Another 75 were severely wounded.
> 
> As I remember them this week, I feel that none of them would want revenge.
> They were not hate merchants.

How true. From all the Canadian and British war veterans I meet, there
was not one who hated Germans. I must point out that all had one thing
in common. This were soldiers who were in battle and gone through hard
times themselves. Most of them were my best friends. It seems to me that
soldiers who sort off were working in administration, never fired a shot
liked to represent themselves as the biggest fighter looking for
revenge.

Sad part is that in this news groups there are so many people sitting on
their computer, not a peep coming out of their mouth. Is this the way to
contribute for a free society?? Shame on you!

Werner Knoll


> 
> [End]
> 
> --
> ************************************************************
> * "What sort of truth is it that needs protection?"        *
> * Auberon Waugh - The London Daily Telegraph - May 9, 1992 *


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 12 17:01:29 EDT 1998
Article: 118045 of can.general
Message-ID: <35567787.D7C35262@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
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Gerald H.Hall

Mister Hall. There were many time we were on the opposite side of the
fence. You have your view and I have mine. We however both have one
thing in common. You and I never once were trying to silence each other,
no matter how much we fought each other.

Werner Knoll



Gerald H.Hall wrote:
> 
> Kenneth McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.org) wrote:
> : In article <354F6C32.FF6C0749@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> :
> : [snip]
> :
> : >McVay is saying that he cannot find any reverence about the statement
> : >Doug Collins made about Goldhagen and therefore it must be a lie. He
> : >could be right when he says that he cannot find it in his book.
> : >I gave an example in mentioning the book "Other Losses" and how many
> : >revisions have been made to it.
> 
>         The following is worth repeating in lieu of the above debate:
> 
>         Jewish citizens of Canada should smarten up!
> 
>         In the Vancouver Sun, April 8, that the B'nai Brith's League for
>         Human Rights and the Vancouver Anti-Racism Education and Research
>         Society are asking B.C.Tel to cut off Fairview network's internet
>         connection in Oliver B.C. for spreading hatred against the Jews.
> 
>         Both of these groups should take a second look at what they are
>         demanding. If ever there was a group of people who should be in the
>         avant-guarde in defending "freedom of speech" it should be the Jews
>         of the world. If there would have been freedom of the press and free
>         speech in Germany during the 1930s, Hitler and his gang could not
>         have gotten away with persecuting the Jews.
> 
>         No group of people in the world has had as much publicity given to
>         them throughout the world about the tragedy that took place under
>         the Nazi thugs in Germany during the 1930s. There is not a country
>         in the world, in my estimation, that has not heard about the pers-
>         ecution of the Jews. They have several museums established in var-
>         ious cities around the world displaying the horrors of the holocaust;
>         including the large Yad Vashem holocaust museum in Jerusalem, which
>         is visited by every tour group that goes to Israel each year - I
>         have visited this museum myself.
> 
>         Israel has been the centre of attention at the United Nations since
>         its inception 1945; a world organization that every country in the
>         world is now a member. Does anyone believe that these countries have
>         not heard about the holocaust?
> 
>         I have no doubt that the holocaust took place. I have no doubt that
>         approximately 6,000,000 Jews were exterminated by the Nazi thugs
>         during the early part of World War II. No informed or educated person
>         could deny that the holocaust took place.
> 
>         However, to think that the answer to racism and hate propaganda is
>         to start tampering with our blood-bought freedom of speech is highly
>         dangerous and the height of ignorance. Ignorance of how a truly free
>         democracy is supposed to work.
> 
>         Censorship would only drive these fanatics underground. And besides
>         it is a violation of section 2 (b) of the Charter of Rights and
>         Freedoms which guarantees every person a right to free speech and
>         opinions, no matter how obnoxious their opinions might be to their
>         opponents.
> 
>         My sympathies have always been with the Jews because I am well in-
>         formed as to the suffering they went through under the Hitler reg-
>         ime; however, I am also a great lover of free speech and democracy
>         having been in countries where these freedoms, which we take for
>         granted in Canada, were rigidly restricted. I want no part of living
>         under these kind of condition!
> 
>         The small number of right-wing extremists in Canada surely are no
>         threat to the Jews. It is an insult to the normal intelligence of
>         the people of Canada to suggest that they cannot discern whether
>         or not a group of fanatics are telling the truth. The best way
>         to fight them is to tell the THRUTH and let the people decide.
> 
>         No one has come up with a definition of what "racism" or "hate
>         propaganda" is; not even Mary-Woo Sim, head of the B.C. anti-hate
>         squad in the NDP government of B.C. If I express an opinion that
>         World War II never took place, should the veterans of the war
>         charge me with spreading hatred against the veterans of Canada?
> 
>         It has become so ridiculous in B.C. that if one criticizes any one
>         of the hundreds of different ethnic groups in B.C. - even legitimate
>         criticism - the word "racist" is used to silence the critic.
> 
>         Freedom has always been the life-blood of a true democracy and we
>         tamper with it at our peril. Canada has left-wing extremists and
>         right-wing extremist who crave publicity - why accommodate them?
>         If the Jews succeed in silencing the extreme right-wing in B.C. -
>         which group will be next?  By attacking freedom of speech Jews are
>         simply drawing negative criticism to themselves.
> 
>         I notice another strange anomaly in the Jews attack on the extreme
>         right-wing: they never seem to attack the extreme left-wing. Stalin
>         was responsible for killing ten times as many innocent people as
>         Hitler was, including persecution of the Jews. Why don't the Jewish
>         leaders criticise the left-wing fanatics who are spreading Marxist
>         propaganda in our universities?  Having been in Marxist countries
>         and experiencing first hand the repression and fear gendered by
>         these left-wing regimes, I consider any academic spreading the
>         Marxist gospel to our young Canadian students in our universities
>         is engaged in spreading hatred against every citizen in Canada.
> 
>         Could it be that because Karl Marx was a Jew that we hear so little
>         criticism of the extreme left-wing in Canada.
> 
>         Jerry Hall
>         May 10, 1998


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:03:59 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> to "boy," or "you people?")

The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them. 

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:04:00 EDT 1998
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Charley L. Walker, Jr. wrote:
> 
> I don't believe that as an American I have seen in print the truth of what
> "news reporting" actually has become better than the views included in the
> piece below by veteran reporter Doug Collins. It has been known for a very
> long time in the U.S. that news reporting has decended into the abyss but
> I've never in my life seen anyone stand up and plead to be able to preach
> "mere opinion". Collins makes no pretentions whatever about admitting that
> Truth has no bearing upon news reporting. It is my view that anything found
> in the press that is NOT TRUE is propaganda and propaganda is and always has
> been DANGEROUS. It is a truth that people read, hear and believe. The
> troubles start when the press, the first place people usually go to hear
> about happenings in the world, start fomenting lies under the cover and
> colors of "freedom of speech". NO ONE has the RIGHT to spread gossip and
> hearsay and certainly not the professional press who makes money off the
> enterprise and is a vital organ of communications within a society. I would
> encourage Mr. Collins and anyone else in the press corps of the world to
> rethink their mission. There may be a strong "market" for hearsay, gossip
> and public manipulation by well planted news topics in the press but that
> does not make it right to satisfy market demand for this stuff anymore than
> it is right to satisfy the demands of drug addiction.
> 
> Alexandre Najem wrote in message <355A7BA8.42FC@emirates.net.ae>...
> |Werner Knoll wrote:
> |>
> |> Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

========================================================================
> |> My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
> |> Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared
> |> for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
> |> incomprehensible
> |> to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
> |> the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
> |> news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had
> |> to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly
> |> good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting
> |> that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as
> |> Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the
> |> Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
> |> was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky.
=======================================================================


This is exactly what Mr.Colins has done. He is talking about the lag of
the press in their responsibility.

Mister Ernest Zundel is not questioning the holocaust. What he is
questioning is the mass scale. Because of this he has been charged for
spreading false news. Chances are if he had singled out any other group
of people, nothing would have happened. Today I can say that I do not
believe in the birth of Jesus Christ and will not be charged with
spreading hate. If I would make any smart remarks about Jews, this would
come under the hate law. By the way Zundel won his case.

Let me tell you that today in Germany they have laws to prevent me and
others from saying anything in public what the Government forbids you to
say. Would you like to have GAG laws in the USA?

GG Art. 139
[Weitergeltung der Entnazifizierungsvorschriften]
Die zur "Befreiung des deutschen Volkes vom Nationalsozialismus und
Militarismus" erlassenen Rechtsvorschriften werden von den Bestimmungen
dieses Grundgesetzes nicht berührt.

Wer versucht die während der Nazizeit von Gestapo, SS, Wehrmacht, Firmen
und den vielen 'ganz normalen' Deutschen begangenen Verbrechen zu
leugnen, Vergessen oder Klein zu machen, kann sich nicht auf
freiheitliche Rechte  berufen, da er zwar deren Einhaltung einfordert,
selbst aber nicht danach  
handelt.

Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird
bestraft, wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus
begangene Handlung der in 220 Abs. 1 bezeichneten Art in einer Weise,
die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in
einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost.

Get somebody to translate this into English. What it says that you can
go to jail if you forget what happen.

We need more people like Collins here in Canada as anywhere else do
defend our freedom of speech.

Finally a quote from Nick in Greece.

Here is what Nick from Greece wrote:
History is truly written by the victor, regardless of nationality. The
victors were the Americans for so many years. As such it comes as no
surprise that so many Germans would adopt American political correctness
in their dealings with their own history. This is a scary concept when
one thinks that there must be two sides to every story.

Werner Knoll

I felt SORRY for myself because I had no shoes, until I met the man who
had no feet.


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:42 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> to "boy," or "you people?")

The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them. 

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:43 EDT 1998
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Cicero wrote:
> 
> John Kenneth Galbraith who has long been an
> intellectual icon for socialists and liberals is
> not a genuine economist at all in the opinion
> of free-market exponents like F.A Hayek, Ludwig
> Von Mises, Milton Friedman and others.
> 
> True economics is dependent on free markets,
> the rule of law and a minimum of government
> interventionism.

[...]


> Tryrell writes: "A decade later  John Kenneth
> Galbraith, the media's most popular
> "economist" [quotation marks are mine], opined that the
> Soviet Union [in the 1960s and '70s] was making great strides.


> 'One sees it in the appearance of the solid well-being of the
> people on the streets, the close to murderous traffic, the
> incredible exfoilation of apartment houses, and the general
> aspect of restaurants, theaters, and shops...Partly the Russian
> system succeeds because, in contrast with Western industrial
> economies, it makes full use of its manpower."

[...]

Cicero?? My encyclopedia says that you died in 43 B. C.  and you were
always in the shadow of Caesar.  You even a approved of Caesar’s murder?
Well Marcus Tullius; You know what happen to you at the end?

Coming back to Galbraigth.
I wonder what he would say today of the reports coming out of Russia. 

"True economics is dependent on free markets,  the rule of law and a
minimum of government  interventionism".

Well the have a free marked for those who can afford to buy.

They have minimum government intervention now.

They have the rule of the law, protecting people who protect themselves.

Working people in Russia today can get a coffin in exchange for work.

Garage workers in Moscow can supplement their income by murdering
customers so the can sell their cars. To maximize their profit, they
killed 10 of their customers and buried them under the Garage floor.

Do you watch the news lately and what happen lately in Indonesia?

Well Marcus I have bad news for you. The Story in my book does not end
well for you. You see my book says you were slain.

Pray to your lord so history will not repeat itself. Pick another name
for yourself next week, will you?

Werner Knoll 
Regan’s tax cuts for the wealthy were supposed to create a cascade
effect of the economic stimulation. Galbraith said that this was akin to
stuffing the horse with oats in order that enough passed through to feed
the sparrows.


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Subject: Re: Needed: Freedom From Religion
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Todd R. Thomsen wrote:
> 
> >  How come people decide to believe the bible above all other books of
> religion
> >that have been written over the ages? Seems you need a closed mind and the
> >ability to be able to ignore facts to participate in this farcical
> endeavour,
> >but then thats how most people are!
> 
> It has nothing to do with having a closed mind.  If you truly look at the
> scientific evidence (not simply what society wants you to think), you will
> see more proof that the Holy Bible is truly without error.  You cannot say
> that about any book of religion.  Also all religions are a bunch of rules
> and guidelines that try to tell people how they can earn their way into
> Heaven (or where ever they say you go after you die).  I have yet to see a
> religion where any one can follow all of the rules, which (in their own
> terms) means the followers will not make it to Heaven.
> 
> Have you taken the time to read and study the Holy Bible?


Well ! I have read the Bible in the forties.

I have studied how useful this Bible is.

I have used the Bible as toilet paper in the forties because there was
no other toilet paper around.

I have found out the hard way that the Bible was not very absorbing. 

"God can do everything"!

 Question??  Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move
this mountain???

Werner Knoll

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not
find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of
innocent men,  women and children, since the introduction of
Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has
been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and
the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
earth."
Thomas Jefferson

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone
on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul,
the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. "The clergy
converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving
mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance
to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ. Jefferson's word for the Bible?
"Dunghill."

Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:44 EDT 1998
Article: 231791 of can.politics
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David Deilley wrote:
> 
> Karl Pollak wrote:
> >
> > If I
> > had been in his shoes, I would have probably decked that lying bastard.
> 
> Comrade Karl -- I guess some of that Stalinist political culture you
> learned at communist grade school is still with you.  Trotsky and Beria
> would be very pleased with your willingness to settle political
> dispiutes with violence.



Karl is really ungrateful to the Communists. You see, the way I have 
worked out, it looks like this. The Americans with the help of their
former U.S. Secretary of the treasury Mister Henry Morgenthau had a
plan. If this plan would have been implemented, Karl and I would not be
around to get you guy’s pissed off.

>From  the time as the cold War started there was a remarkable improvement
in our living condition. Where before we had so little to eat and could
hardly survive, foot became available. Karl should really ask himself
what would have happened to him and me if the threat of communism would
have not been there. West Germany was helped on his feet to show the
communist that only people not being communist can prosper. 



>From  the book "OTHER LOSSES" by James Bacque. The book order number is
ISBN 0 - 7736 - 7309 - 1 This is a Revised Edition.

Page VIII 1947 - 1950s       Most records of U.S. prison camps are
destroyed. Germans determine that over 1,700,000 soldiers alive at war’s
end, never returned home.  All Allies deny responsibility; the U.S.,
Britain and France accuse Russia of atrocities in camps.
1960 - 1972    The West German Foreign Office under Willi Brandt
subsidizes books that deny atrocities in U.S. camps.  U.S. Senators
accuse Russians of atrocities, but say nothing of U.S. camps.

Page 9	There would be massive starvation if the industrial base were
destroyed. According to Gordel Hull the secretary of state, "the
Morgenthau Plan would wipe out everything in Germany except land, and
the Germans would have to live on the land.  This meant that only 60
percent of the German population could support themselves on German
land, and the other 40 percent would die." Hull is speaking here of the
deaths of about 20 million German civilians. Churchill said the plan was
"unnatural, unchristian and unnecessary"


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:45 EDT 1998
Article: 231828 of can.politics
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Not a Republican wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote in message <355E0E44.B13B434B@istar.ca>...
> >Cicero wrote:

> >[...]

> >> 'One sees it in the appearance of the solid well-being of the
> >> people on the streets, the close to murderous traffic, the
> >> incredible exfoilation of apartment houses, and the general
> >> aspect of restaurants, theaters, and shops...Partly the Russian
> >> system succeeds because, in contrast with Western industrial
> >> economies, it makes full use of its manpower."
> >
> >[...]

> >Coming back to Galbraigth.
> >I wonder what he would say today of the reports coming out of Russia.
> >
> >"True economics is dependent on free markets,  the rule of law and a
> >minimum of government  interventionism".
> >
> >Well the have a free marked for those who can afford to buy.
> >
> >They have minimum government intervention now.
> >
> >They have the rule of the law, protecting people who protect themselves.
> >
> >Working people in Russia today can get a coffin in exchange for work.
> >
> >Garage workers in Moscow can supplement their income by murdering
> >customers so the can sell their cars. To maximize their profit, they
> >killed 10 of their customers and buried them under the Garage floor.

[...SNIP...]
> >
> 
> Detractors of free enterprise have been pointing to post-communist Russia as
> an example of failed capitalism.  They are right and they are wrong--far,
> far more wrong than right.

I am pointing out that for everything good there is something what is
not so good.
> 
> Where they have limited economic freedoms, they also have a moral vacuum
> more powerful than our own.  Capitalism, even freedom itself, cannot exist
> in a moral vacuum.  Few things can.

So in order to have free enterprise the people have to get some shock
treatment first so they can handle what is next to come?



You have to run this one by me one more time or tell me what you
consider morals? Are you trying to tell me that different people have
different morals and if the live by this morals that there is no 
Vaccum?


Amazing. What do you think the  average Russians calling this news
system? Are they calling it Communism?

If you look at my previous poster statement, what conclusion will you
have?

 Real free enterprise is a dream which can only be maintained to a
certain degree with controls in place. If it were left at its own
without controls, it would lead to disaster unless you feel this
disaster is morally sound and therefore there  is no vacuum.

Werner Knoll

        "Anyone who has the power to make you believe
absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:45 EDT 1998
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Charley L. Walker, Jr. wrote:
> 
> I don't believe that as an American I have seen in print the truth of what
> "news reporting" actually has become better than the views included in the
> piece below by veteran reporter Doug Collins. It has been known for a very
> long time in the U.S. that news reporting has decended into the abyss but
> I've never in my life seen anyone stand up and plead to be able to preach
> "mere opinion". Collins makes no pretentions whatever about admitting that
> Truth has no bearing upon news reporting. It is my view that anything found
> in the press that is NOT TRUE is propaganda and propaganda is and always has
> been DANGEROUS. It is a truth that people read, hear and believe. The
> troubles start when the press, the first place people usually go to hear
> about happenings in the world, start fomenting lies under the cover and
> colors of "freedom of speech". NO ONE has the RIGHT to spread gossip and
> hearsay and certainly not the professional press who makes money off the
> enterprise and is a vital organ of communications within a society. I would
> encourage Mr. Collins and anyone else in the press corps of the world to
> rethink their mission. There may be a strong "market" for hearsay, gossip
> and public manipulation by well planted news topics in the press but that
> does not make it right to satisfy market demand for this stuff anymore than
> it is right to satisfy the demands of drug addiction.
> 
> Alexandre Najem wrote in message <355A7BA8.42FC@emirates.net.ae>...
> |Werner Knoll wrote:
> |>
> |> Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

========================================================================
> |> My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
> |> Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared
> |> for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
> |> incomprehensible
> |> to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
> |> the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
> |> news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had
> |> to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly
> |> good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting
> |> that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as
> |> Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the
> |> Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
> |> was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky.
=======================================================================


This is exactly what Mr.Colins has done. He is talking about the lag of
the press in their responsibility.

Mister Ernest Zundel is not questioning the holocaust. What he is
questioning is the mass scale. Because of this he has been charged for
spreading false news. Chances are if he had singled out any other group
of people, nothing would have happened. Today I can say that I do not
believe in the birth of Jesus Christ and will not be charged with
spreading hate. If I would make any smart remarks about Jews, this would
come under the hate law. By the way Zundel won his case.

Let me tell you that today in Germany they have laws to prevent me and
others from saying anything in public what the Government forbids you to
say. Would you like to have GAG laws in the USA?

GG Art. 139
[Weitergeltung der Entnazifizierungsvorschriften]
Die zur "Befreiung des deutschen Volkes vom Nationalsozialismus und
Militarismus" erlassenen Rechtsvorschriften werden von den Bestimmungen
dieses Grundgesetzes nicht berührt.

Wer versucht die während der Nazizeit von Gestapo, SS, Wehrmacht, Firmen
und den vielen 'ganz normalen' Deutschen begangenen Verbrechen zu
leugnen, Vergessen oder Klein zu machen, kann sich nicht auf
freiheitliche Rechte  berufen, da er zwar deren Einhaltung einfordert,
selbst aber nicht danach  
handelt.

Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird
bestraft, wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus
begangene Handlung der in 220 Abs. 1 bezeichneten Art in einer Weise,
die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in
einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost.

Get somebody to translate this into English. What it says that you can
go to jail if you forget what happen.

We need more people like Collins here in Canada as anywhere else do
defend our freedom of speech.

Finally a quote from Nick in Greece.

Here is what Nick from Greece wrote:
History is truly written by the victor, regardless of nationality. The
victors were the Americans for so many years. As such it comes as no
surprise that so many Germans would adopt American political correctness
in their dealings with their own history. This is a scary concept when
one thinks that there must be two sides to every story.

Werner Knoll

I felt SORRY for myself because I had no shoes, until I met the man who
had no feet.


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:46 EDT 1998
Article: 231847 of can.politics
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Subject: Re: Needed: Freedom From Religion
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Bill Robinson wrote:
> 
> Werner:
> Truly one of your better posts. Could not have said it better myself. If
> the nutters find the answer in the bible and post it - make sure we all
> get a copy! Just remember though - DoubleThink states that the answer is
> yes  (or is it no? - hmmmm) - even though the "Scientific Prooof"
> argument stated previously says that the answer to your question is a
> Paradox - or is it? hmmm.

Do not get me wrong. I do know that most people believing in God are
GOOD people. The group of  Christians I am addressing are those
sanctimonious bastards who use the Bible to control people. Is that the
reason why they are talking being sinners all the time??

Werner Knoll


> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> >
> > Todd R. Thomsen wrote:
> > "God can do everything"!
> >
> >  Question??  Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move
> > this mountain???
> > Werner Knoll
> >
> > "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not
> > find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
> > feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of
> > innocent men,  women and children, since the introduction of
> > Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has
> > been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and
> > the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
> > earth."
> > Thomas Jefferson
> >
> > SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
> > by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short
> >
> > Jefferson again:
> >
> > "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone
> > on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
> > teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul,
> > the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. "The clergy
> > converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving
> > mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance
> > to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact,
> > constitute the real Anti-Christ. Jefferson's word for the Bible?
> > "Dunghill."
> >
> > Adams:
> >
> > "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
> > absurdity."
> >
> > Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:
> 
> --
> Bill
> 
> Why can an NDPer tell you how to run your company but would
> *never* take the risk themselves?
> 
> Have you ever noticed it is always the turkeys who promise
> you a chicken in every potbelly? .. and two cars in every garage.


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:11:46 EDT 1998
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Karl Pollak wrote:
> 
> x-no-archive: yes
>  Werner Knoll wrote:
> 
> >plan. If this plan would have been implemented, Karl and I would not be
> 
> Genosse Knoll, don't, even for one fleeting minute, flatter yourself
> thinking that you and I have anything at all in common.  We don't, I'm
> proud to report.



Going to the toilet we have many things in common with the exception of
sitting down. You have to sit down more often than I do and the reason
is obvious. 

Werner Knoll
When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about
to set.'


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:12:52 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 

> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> to "boy," or "you people?")

The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them. 

The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile, real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's List.
I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in 
my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984! Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem. We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed 
nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria -
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings 
of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet 
the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government, who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to 
have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yelling about 
discrimination. To which I say, physician, heal thyself. 

Yes, the idea is to kill the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end with stopping
them. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When the Barrett
government got going on its human rights program in the early 1970s we
were told that all they wanted to do was to ensure fair play in hiring
and housing. But these things begin small and end large, and today human
rights commissions in this country are a menace to human rights. Rights
have become wrongs, and in today in B.C. the human rights gang is a
direct threat to freedom of the press. 

It is also said that you can learn how to make bombs on the Internet. So
you can. But you can also learn how to make bombs by other means. The
left-wing Squamish Five didn't need any Internet to learn how to make
and explode bombs in the 1980s, and people intent on making bombs today
don't need the Internet either.

When Winston Churchill lost the British election in 1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable, mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 18 12:12:52 EDT 1998
Article: 74037 of bc.general
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Charley L. Walker, Jr. wrote:
> 
> I don't believe that as an American I have seen in print the truth of what
> "news reporting" actually has become better than the views included in the
> piece below by veteran reporter Doug Collins. It has been known for a very
> long time in the U.S. that news reporting has decended into the abyss but
> I've never in my life seen anyone stand up and plead to be able to preach
> "mere opinion". Collins makes no pretentions whatever about admitting that
> Truth has no bearing upon news reporting. It is my view that anything found
> in the press that is NOT TRUE is propaganda and propaganda is and always has
> been DANGEROUS. It is a truth that people read, hear and believe. The
> troubles start when the press, the first place people usually go to hear
> about happenings in the world, start fomenting lies under the cover and
> colors of "freedom of speech". NO ONE has the RIGHT to spread gossip and
> hearsay and certainly not the professional press who makes money off the
> enterprise and is a vital organ of communications within a society. I would
> encourage Mr. Collins and anyone else in the press corps of the world to
> rethink their mission. There may be a strong "market" for hearsay, gossip
> and public manipulation by well planted news topics in the press but that
> does not make it right to satisfy market demand for this stuff anymore than
> it is right to satisfy the demands of drug addiction.
> 
> Alexandre Najem wrote in message <355A7BA8.42FC@emirates.net.ae>...
> |Werner Knoll wrote:
> |>
> |> Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:

========================================================================
> |> My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
> |> Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared
> |> for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
> |> incomprehensible
> |> to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I told
> |> the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads false
> |> news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had
> |> to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are particularly
> |> good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this meeting
> |> that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as
> |> Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the
> |> Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news law
> |> was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky.
=======================================================================


This is exactly what Mr.Colins has done. He is talking about the lag of
the press in their responsibility.

Mister Ernest Zundel is not questioning the holocaust. What he is
questioning is the mass scale. Because of this he has been charged for
spreading false news. Chances are if he had singled out any other group
of people, nothing would have happened. Today I can say that I do not
believe in the birth of Jesus Christ and will not be charged with
spreading hate. If I would make any smart remarks about Jews, this would
come under the hate law. By the way Zundel won his case.

Let me tell you that today in Germany they have laws to prevent me and
others from saying anything in public what the Government forbids you to
say. Would you like to have GAG laws in the USA?

GG Art. 139
[Weitergeltung der Entnazifizierungsvorschriften]
Die zur "Befreiung des deutschen Volkes vom Nationalsozialismus und
Militarismus" erlassenen Rechtsvorschriften werden von den Bestimmungen
dieses Grundgesetzes nicht berührt.

Wer versucht die während der Nazizeit von Gestapo, SS, Wehrmacht, Firmen
und den vielen 'ganz normalen' Deutschen begangenen Verbrechen zu
leugnen, Vergessen oder Klein zu machen, kann sich nicht auf
freiheitliche Rechte  berufen, da er zwar deren Einhaltung einfordert,
selbst aber nicht danach  
handelt.

Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird
bestraft, wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus
begangene Handlung der in 220 Abs. 1 bezeichneten Art in einer Weise,
die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in
einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost.

Get somebody to translate this into English. What it says that you can
go to jail if you forget what happen.

We need more people like Collins here in Canada as anywhere else do
defend our freedom of speech.

Finally a quote from Nick in Greece.

Here is what Nick from Greece wrote:
History is truly written by the victor, regardless of nationality. The
victors were the Americans for so many years. As such it comes as no
surprise that so many Germans would adopt American political correctness
in their dealings with their own history. This is a scary concept when
one thinks that there must be two sides to every story.

Werner Knoll

I felt SORRY for myself because I had no shoes, until I met the man who
had no feet.


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 19 15:08:28 EDT 1998
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3551EE52.1423FDF0@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> (What is a "holocaust industrial sponsor," Mr. Knoll? Do they belong
> >> to "boy," or "you people?")
> 
> >The people, you BOY are pulling your foreskin back for them.
> 
> Mr. Knoll declines to answer. No surprise there. Mr. Knoll usually
> does that when asked a simple, direct question.
>

Since you are changing the subjects name so many times in this tread, I
can tell you that this question has been answered many time.

Do you know a Cecelia Plechinger

I think this lady can explain to the reader better than me what kind of 
person you are. More about her later But first:

Subject:      Re: Slepokura on Goldhagen
From:         Werner Knoll 
Date:         1998/05/14
Message-ID:   <355A60B0.CB45562F@istar.ca>
Newsgroups:   can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general


Mister McVay used the word lying, liar often to prove that I must be
wrong. Why not, calling somebody a liar will get peoples attention and
most of the time it will end a meaningful discussion. He was calling me
a lair for telling him, no matter how much he likes to represent himself
a man of integrity, he still has to depend on help from his supporter.
As far that I am concerned, he can call me a liar till hell freezes
over.

If he want’s to play the roll as a wailing boy for his sponsors and
getting paid for it, that is fine with me. After all this job is better
than pumping gas. My last correspondence see below.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=

Subject:      Re: Is 'soc.culture.jewish.holocaust' down ???
From:         plechinger@hotmail.com (Cecelia Plechinger)
Date:         1997/12/02
Message-ID:   <65vlrn$p22@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
Newsgroups:   soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to soc.culture.jewish]

In article <347bc938.1264254@news.inode.at>, landauf@inode.at says...

>
>Is NG 'soc.culture.jewish.holocaust' down ?
>It is there on my newsserver, but for months no new postings.

Same here.

>Does anyone know the details ?

I do not know exactly, being that the moderators (Nizkor!)
who took over after the founders were no longer able to devote 
the time necessary are silent.
===============

Nizkor is good at publicizing itself and making it look bigger
than it really is, but it is mostly form and little substance.
It claimed to have "hundreds of volunteers" but in reality it
was a small cadre. Its chief, Ken McVay, who I knew online before
Nizkor was founded, is quite narrow-minded, controling, and domineering.
It is his way or no way. Instead of helping people grow and develope
re the Shoah, and face it, he wants to shove his own very particular
view (not necessarily same as the Particularists) onto others. 
Basically,
if, based on who-knows-what detail, he likes you and  makes a decision
to
like you very soon, he will exclude you and give you run-around.
=========================
After awile, even some people in his closest cadre got fed up and left.

So now, with less manpower, he is no longer able to "tightly control"
(Ken's actual words!) soc.culture.jewish.holocaust .  So, rather than
let somebody else take over the moderating (and somebody he cannot
control, but still a competent person to moderate), he just lets
scjh sit there empty and unused.

This should not go on.

SCJH was origninally founded here in SCJ as a way to move Shoah-related
discussions out of SCJ, to free up SCJ for other things.  Also, the
founders wanted to make it moderated "to keep out neo-Nazis and
deniers."
They could have had moderation only in a group other than SCJ.  Also,
this
was back before SCJ itself became overcrowed and a playground for
anti-Jewish
posters.

The original charter as written by the founders who worked out of
University
of North Carolina of Chapel Hill was quite fine and fair to all
fair-minded
people.  They accepted a wide variety of posts and when they rejected
any
of them, they sent the poster an personalized e-mail explaining the
exact
reason for the rejection and inviting a rewritten resubmission. 
  
But then one day they announced that they no longer have time to
do it and asked for a new set of moderators to take over.
=============================================
Ken McVay jumped at this chance. Himself, along with his appointees,
"Jamie" and "Harry" (last names withheld), took over.  When I asked
the identies of this "Jamie" and this "Harry" I received no reply.
I speculate that they were Jamie McCarthy and Harry Mazal.  
============================================
Jamie is not Jewish and neither is Ken.  I do not know what Harry is.
But yet, in spite the fact that 2/3 and maybe even 3/3 of the moderators
were NON-Jews, the newsgroup remained soc.culture.JEWISH.holocaust.
I think (and I thought this even when the U. North Carolina people were
moderating) that a better name would have been simply

because it is not just a Jewish issue.  (The word "Shoah" instead of
"Holocaust" excludes from the NG tragedies other than the anti-Jewish
Nazi Holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's, so the word "Jewish" would be
unnecessary in the NG name if the word "Shoah" was included.) 

But when  Nizkor took over, the inclusion of the word "Jewish" seemed 
to be crying out with anguish that control of the NG that is supposed 
to be Jew-centric (at least by looking at the NG name) was in the hands 
of Goyim.

Also, if Jews wanted a specifically Jewish forum to discuss
Shoah-related
issues, a sister newsgroup for  called
 could be created. By the same logic, a
 could be created (and can do much good in
an area where much good badly needs done!!!).
=======================================
And a new charter was written after Ken McVay took over that was a very 
big step down from the original,
even though Ken claimed it was an "improvement in quality."  This new
charter reflected an author who is narrowminded and over-controlling.
It also even more noticable was that it made *Revisionism* of all things
the point of reference for everything!!  Uh, I thought the *Shoah
itself*
was supposed to be the point of reference.
========================================
But no, Ken chose to focus on only one implication of the Shoah.
It is ok for one person to focus on only on implication such as
Revisionism/denial, but it is not ok for a moderated newsgroup that 
claims to be a *general Jewish
Shoah-related newsgroup* to be limited to such a focus. If Ken's 
personal posts to scjh were to be mainly on the deniers, that would 
have been OK, but what he did was judge each and every submission on 
how it fit his anti-Revisionist criteria and on no other factor
seemingly.

The focus, even obsession, with *Revisionism* was so overarching that
the newsgroup would be much better named 
than soc.culture.jewish.holocaust

Ken also denied many more posts that the U. North Carolina founders. 
And he gave no explanation.  All the poster got was a form e-mail
letter.  This letter's first few paragraphs pontificated about how
scjh rejects revisionist denialist posts and how terrible such posters
are!  Even very Shoah-believing rejected posts got this rejection
letter!!
It is only far into the form letter that it says that the post might
also
have been rejected because the moderators decided it was "too lengthly
or 
off topic."   
========================================
Just think of how many people who are just trying for the first time in
their lives to come out of their shell on the Shoah, and who ask an
honest question, but Ken, in his paranoia against "deniers" deems to be
"denialist."  How many such people were driven back into their shells
never 
to come out again or come out only after many years!!  How invalidating
it must have been for these people and how hurt when they might have had
to gather up much courage to ask a question in the first place.  Asking
little questions in a NG is a first step some people need before they
can
go on to read books and such.  But many people wanting to try to face
the Shoah got beat down by Ken on their first attempt!  
=============================================
Oh, yes, Ken also dictated that a post must be "historically
accurate."  But an honest question from a person who is only starting
out
or who has heard bad information due to no fault of his or her own (and 
it is not only the Revisionists
who have been putting out "bad information" over the years!!) will often
not meet Ken's "historically accruate" standard.  One has to be already
well-read on the Shoah (and in accord with Ken's paradeigm of it) to
get a post approved oftentimes.  People who are already well-read or
well-networked are *not* the people who need scjh the most. The ones who
need it most are ones like me who are trying to come out, trying to find
study-partners, and so forth.  Yet is is we who would get his with an
e-mail accusing us of having evil motives and such.  Most beginners are
too disheartened by such abusive reject letters that they never got the
the latter paragraph where it says that posts also get rejected for
being "too lengthy or off topic."

And a resubmission was requested, but no specific guidance of the kind
I valued so much from the U. North Carolina founders was to be had.

And Ken had unstated criteria too.  For example, I once submitted an
approximately 3 to 5 K post stating that I am thinking of going on
a medically-supervised hunger strike to promote Shoah education and
activism.  (I hate the word "awareness" -- people who need to be reached
are already painfully "aware" -- they need a chance to put their 
pre-existing awarness to constructive use!).  I was asking if others
thought this was a good or a bad idea.  Well, *this* got the form letter
rejection pontificating how "we reject
and loath your revisionist post ... also, you post might have been
rejected
due to being too long or being off topic."   

Mine hunger strike submission was not Holocaust
Revisionist, not too long, nor off topic by any stretch of the
imagination.
Yet Ken saw it unfit.  I asked him why specifially, but got no reply.

It is obvious that scjh is its current form is impotent.  Since it was
created by discussion here, I think here we should discuss its
demolition
and reorganization under new management.  I think that demolishing it is
the only way to get it away from Ken.  If it cannot be demolished
without
his consent, then we can just go and form soc.culture.shoah with
competent
moderators.  It can then do the job that Ken will not permit scjh to do.

Cecelia Plechinger    plechinger@hotmail.com


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 19 15:08:28 EDT 1998
Article: 118469 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <356092EC.BB2D225C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> >Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >> Mr. Knoll declines to answer. No surprise there. Mr. Knoll usually
> >> does that when asked a simple, direct question.
> 
> >Since you are changing the subjects name so many times in this tread, I
> >can tell you that this question has been answered many time.
> 
> Perhaps if one makes it easy for Mr. Knoll, he will be able to change
> his habit of avoiding the issue:
> 
> Does Mr. Knoll, or does he not, state that I want to censor Holocaust
> deniers? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.


You never said that you will CENSOR holocaust deniers. What I was and
will  say again and again that your statement that You
will not censor holocaust deniers means nothing to me.

=======================================================================
Subject: Re: Knoll: An apology - he did _not_ plagarize Collins
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 13:29:00 GMT
From: Werner Knoll 
Organization: The Knoll's
Newsgroups: can.general, bc.general, can.politics
References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3553CB1E.CDB64460@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:

Talking about lying about you. Frankly speaking, your statements about
you being against censorship means nothing. All you can tell me that I
am wrong in my assertion about you. You see if you would not have any
association and sympathy with your backers than it would be a different
story. You can say whatever you want but the perception will always be
there. That is politics. Take a look how Dave Barrett he is looked at by
the news media. It would make no difference how clean he is and sincere
but the perception is what counts at he end. So you better learn to live
with it. Finally it is not what you are saying but what you do or will
do that what counts and I can tell you the jury is still out on this.

> I'm flying to St. John tomorrow, for a meeting, and then to Vancouver
> Island, and then to Washington, DC, and then to Toronto. I won't be
> spending a lot of time chatting with you. When I return to full time
> computer work, towards the 25-26th of the month, I'll get back to you.


=======================================================================

> 
> >Do you know a Cecelia Plechinger
> 
> I have never met her, but know who you mean. Are you suggesting that
> you are not a liar because she asserts I label liars as liars?

You have to help me on this one. Were does she say that you label people
as liars?


========================================================================
What she says:
Nizkor is good at publicizing itself and making it look bigger
than it really is, but it is mostly form and little substance.
It claimed to have "hundreds of volunteers" but in reality it
was a small cadre. Its chief, Ken McVay, who I knew online before
Nizkor was founded, is quite narrow-minded, controling, and domineering.
It is his way or no way. Instead of helping people grow and develope
re the Shoah, and face it, he wants to shove his own very particular
view (not necessarily same as the Particularists) onto others. 
Basically,
if, based on who-knows-what detail, he likes you and  makes a decision
to
like you very soon, he will exclude you and give you run-around.

AND:

And a new charter was written after Ken McVay took over that was a very 
big step down from the original,
even though Ken claimed it was an "improvement in quality."  This new
charter reflected an author who is narrowminded and over-controlling.
It also even more noticable was that it made *Revisionism* of all things
the point of reference for everything!!  Uh, I thought the *Shoah
itself*
was supposed to be the point of reference.
=======================================================================

Berhaps now is the time for you to see your Doctor. One can easy see
that you are loosing your marbles.

Think about narrow minded, over controlling, domenieering for one
moment. Hitler had the same qualifications.

Do not forget, you can be replaced. 

Werner Knoll
Spit against the wind and you spit in your own face.


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 19 15:08:29 EDT 1998
Article: 118490 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3560D751.3ED4D12C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I asked]
> 
> >> Does Mr. Knoll, or does he not, state that I want to censor Holocaust
> >> deniers? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
> 
> >You never said that you will CENSOR holocaust deniers. What I was and
> >will  say again and again that your statement that You
> >will not censor holocaust deniers means nothing to me.
> 
> Mr. Knoll was not asked what _I_ might have said. Mr. Knoll was asked
> what _he_ has said. As usual,
> 
>  Mr. Knoll declines to answer. No surprise there. Mr. Knoll usually
>  does that when asked a simple, direct question.

Listen you clown. I am trying to save taxpayers money by keeping you out
of the lunatic bin. Everybody should be happy for that.

You see; I read your yes or no question about 5 time and could not
figure out what you are getting at. It stands to reason that when you
said that you will not censor people than I could not say that you did.

On May 6, 1998 I said that your style and actions will resuld in turning
people off. With other words, whilst you say that you do not sencor
people, this people are turned off

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Subject:      Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
From:         Werner Knoll 
Date:         1998/05/06
Message-ID:   <355067AF.AC1767B8@istar.ca>
Newsgroups:   can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to can.politics]

Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence
people. Who are this people in your organization with so much power?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

What happen to your statement about Mrs. Plechinger labeling you a
liar??

You see Ken; I do not consider you a honest person at all. You have
shown over and over again that you are manipulating people to make
things look good for you. You are a disgrace to your sponsors and any
other decent person. I am surprised that your sponsors have not let you
go yet.

YOU CAN BE REPLACED. Start looking for a job NOW.

Werner Knoll
Phys Ed should be taught by RC priests. Wrestling would go like: This
hold (one arm pinning the neck) is the half nelson. This hold (two arms
pinning the neck) is the full nelson.  This hold (two arms pinning the
neck and hips thrusting) is the Father
Taken off the Internet.


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 19 15:08:30 EDT 1998
Article: 118491 of can.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3560D751.3ED4D12C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 



[SNIP]
======================================================================
> >And a new charter was written after Ken McVay took over that was a very
> >big step down from the original,
> >even though Ken claimed it was an "improvement in quality."  This new
> >charter reflected an author who is narrowminded and over-controlling.
> >It also even more noticable was that it made *Revisionism* of all things
> >the point of reference for everything!!  Uh, I thought the *Shoah
=======================================================================
The words narrow minded, controlling, domineering and turning people off
come to my mind here.

I can not help you to slander this lady because I do not know her.
Perhaps you should do some soul searching if there is such a thing. It
is not possiple that eveyone is wrong and you are always right. Better
start to grow up.

Remember you can be replaced.

Werner Knoll
"Distrust all in whom the impulse to Punish is powerful"
Friedrich Nietzsche.


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:13:50 EDT 1998
Article: 176891 of alt.revisionism
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From: Werner Knoll 
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Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In , on Sat, 09 May
> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> >Hitler's Ghost
> 
> >by Christopher Hitchens
> 

[snip]
> 
> --
>  John Morris                                
>  at University of Alberta  
> --
>  The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
>  The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
>  The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/

Do you know who Julius Streicher was?? I went to the Julius Streicher
school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
MvVay walk in Streicher’ s foot steps.

Werner Knoll
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe
absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:13:51 EDT 1998
Article: 176954 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca>, on Thu, 21 May 1998 05:20:21 GMT,
> Werner Knoll  wrote:
> 
> >John Morris wrote:
> 
> >> In , on Sat, 09 May
> >> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> >> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Do you know who Julius Streicher was??
> 
> Indeed, I do. And I compared Orest Slepokura to Streicher quite on
> purpose.
> 
> I don't know how long you have been reading Usenet, but I have watched
> Orest Slepokura's activities for several years now. His posts have one
> consistent theme: to post every snippet he can find from newspapers
> which cast Jews in a bad light. He used to post mostly to
> alt.revisionism, the Holocaust denier newsgroup, but he seemed to
> catch on that he was preaching to the choir there.

So what? You, I and many others have our own hobby horses too. I have a
selection of news paper clippings about Canadian Politics, religious
fanatics, the holocaust industry and rightwing propaganda. Whenever I
feel something is wrong, I will say so. I do not hate religious people,
Jews, or people who have a different political view than I have. If  I
feel that somebody is wrong, I am prepared to tell him so. I do not mind
at ALL when people are telling me where I am wrong and if this people
can explain to me what is a better way to do things, more power to them.


> 
> His approach is clever, far cleverer than the pornographic ravings of
> a Julius Streicher. For awhile, at least, he can deny that his purpose
> is antisemitic. But the pattern becomes clear after awhile. Ask
> yourself what relevance Christopher Hitchens's opinions on Irving and
> Goldhagen have in the newsgroups can.politics, can.general,
> soc.culture.canada, bc.general, or ab.general. The answer should be:
> "none whatever." Slepokura is just after a bigger audience than he
> could get when he could get in alt.revisionism.

How would Streicher produced pronographic material? This seems highly
unlikely consider the political climate during the Nazi area!

Never read Hitchen or Irving. No comment on this. About audience? Lets
be honest with yourself. We ALL are looking for an audience here.

> 
> >I went to the Julius Streicher
> >school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
> >group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
> >not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
> >bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
> >long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
> >MvVay walk in Streicher’s foot steps.
> 
> I read a few of your posts while reading the Goldhagen threads, and
> the illogic of this response seems pretty much typical. I have a
> reason for comparing Slepokura to Julius Streicher because "there is a
> certain pattern here with guy's like" him.
> 
> You, on the other hand, know nothing about me, about whether it is my
> habit to give people "bad names" or whether I label people liars. You
> simply assumed from my .sig line that I am a certain kind of person
> and levelled an accusation at me without knowing whether your
> assumption was reliable. In fact, you did to me what you accuse me of
> doing to Slepokura. Perhaps for some people, times never do change.

Well; like I said. From 1939 to 1947 I went to the Julius Steicher
school to learn the 3 R’ s. It was only in 1946 we were made aware who
Julius Streicher was. Julius Streicher a former teacher, journalist
published "DER STÜRMER" This hate literature against the Jews was
published to get people worked up. There were many ways Streicher
portrayed the Jews. The information I got from older people goes like
this in all of his printings Jews were liars, people who are dishonest
and many other things. You know the results. At the Nürnberg trial
Streicher was sentenced to hang for spreading hate propaganda. I
remember very well because I did live close by.

Yes I did fire back in kind to make sure that you know how it feels
being labeled. By comparing Slepokura with Streicher, you chose to use
the same tactics as the Nazi’s, You are trying to discredit a person
because you do not like what he says, plain and simple.

The echo comes back very clear. When you shout into the forest the echo
will come back.

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:14:07 EDT 1998
Article: 118575 of can.general
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From: Werner Knoll 
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
References:  <3561591b.48282020@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In , on Sat, 09 May
> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> >Hitler's Ghost
> 
> >by Christopher Hitchens
> 

[snip]
> 
> --
>  John Morris                                
>  at University of Alberta  
> --
>  The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
>  The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
>  The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/

Do you know who Julius Streicher was?? I went to the Julius Streicher
school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
MvVay walk in Streicher’ s foot steps.

Werner Knoll
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe
absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:14:08 EDT 1998
Article: 118600 of can.general
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Message-ID: <356454EA.8AF9FAFE@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
References:  <3561591b.48282020@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca> <3565d82f.39273099@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca>, on Thu, 21 May 1998 05:20:21 GMT,
> Werner Knoll  wrote:
> 
> >John Morris wrote:
> 
> >> In , on Sat, 09 May
> >> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> >> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Do you know who Julius Streicher was??
> 
> Indeed, I do. And I compared Orest Slepokura to Streicher quite on
> purpose.
> 
> I don't know how long you have been reading Usenet, but I have watched
> Orest Slepokura's activities for several years now. His posts have one
> consistent theme: to post every snippet he can find from newspapers
> which cast Jews in a bad light. He used to post mostly to
> alt.revisionism, the Holocaust denier newsgroup, but he seemed to
> catch on that he was preaching to the choir there.

So what? You, I and many others have our own hobby horses too. I have a
selection of news paper clippings about Canadian Politics, religious
fanatics, the holocaust industry and rightwing propaganda. Whenever I
feel something is wrong, I will say so. I do not hate religious people,
Jews, or people who have a different political view than I have. If  I
feel that somebody is wrong, I am prepared to tell him so. I do not mind
at ALL when people are telling me where I am wrong and if this people
can explain to me what is a better way to do things, more power to them.


> 
> His approach is clever, far cleverer than the pornographic ravings of
> a Julius Streicher. For awhile, at least, he can deny that his purpose
> is antisemitic. But the pattern becomes clear after awhile. Ask
> yourself what relevance Christopher Hitchens's opinions on Irving and
> Goldhagen have in the newsgroups can.politics, can.general,
> soc.culture.canada, bc.general, or ab.general. The answer should be:
> "none whatever." Slepokura is just after a bigger audience than he
> could get when he could get in alt.revisionism.

How would Streicher produced pronographic material? This seems highly
unlikely consider the political climate during the Nazi area!

Never read Hitchen or Irving. No comment on this. About audience? Lets
be honest with yourself. We ALL are looking for an audience here.

> 
> >I went to the Julius Streicher
> >school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
> >group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
> >not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
> >bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
> >long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
> >MvVay walk in Streicher’s foot steps.
> 
> I read a few of your posts while reading the Goldhagen threads, and
> the illogic of this response seems pretty much typical. I have a
> reason for comparing Slepokura to Julius Streicher because "there is a
> certain pattern here with guy's like" him.
> 
> You, on the other hand, know nothing about me, about whether it is my
> habit to give people "bad names" or whether I label people liars. You
> simply assumed from my .sig line that I am a certain kind of person
> and levelled an accusation at me without knowing whether your
> assumption was reliable. In fact, you did to me what you accuse me of
> doing to Slepokura. Perhaps for some people, times never do change.

Well; like I said. From 1939 to 1947 I went to the Julius Steicher
school to learn the 3 R’ s. It was only in 1946 we were made aware who
Julius Streicher was. Julius Streicher a former teacher, journalist
published "DER STÜRMER" This hate literature against the Jews was
published to get people worked up. There were many ways Streicher
portrayed the Jews. The information I got from older people goes like
this in all of his printings Jews were liars, people who are dishonest
and many other things. You know the results. At the Nürnberg trial
Streicher was sentenced to hang for spreading hate propaganda. I
remember very well because I did live close by.

Yes I did fire back in kind to make sure that you know how it feels
being labeled. By comparing Slepokura with Streicher, you chose to use
the same tactics as the Nazi’s, You are trying to discredit a person
because you do not like what he says, plain and simple.

The echo comes back very clear. When you shout into the forest the echo
will come back.

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:14:45 EDT 1998
Article: 146142 of soc.culture.canada
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Message-ID: <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
References:  <3561591b.48282020@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In , on Sat, 09 May
> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> >Hitler's Ghost
> 
> >by Christopher Hitchens
> 

[snip]
> 
> --
>  John Morris                                
>  at University of Alberta  
> --
>  The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
>  The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
>  The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/

Do you know who Julius Streicher was?? I went to the Julius Streicher
school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
MvVay walk in Streicher’ s foot steps.

Werner Knoll
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe
absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:14:45 EDT 1998
Article: 146217 of soc.culture.canada
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Message-ID: <356454EA.8AF9FAFE@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
References:  <3561591b.48282020@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca> <3565d82f.39273099@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca>, on Thu, 21 May 1998 05:20:21 GMT,
> Werner Knoll  wrote:
> 
> >John Morris wrote:
> 
> >> In , on Sat, 09 May
> >> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> >> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Do you know who Julius Streicher was??
> 
> Indeed, I do. And I compared Orest Slepokura to Streicher quite on
> purpose.
> 
> I don't know how long you have been reading Usenet, but I have watched
> Orest Slepokura's activities for several years now. His posts have one
> consistent theme: to post every snippet he can find from newspapers
> which cast Jews in a bad light. He used to post mostly to
> alt.revisionism, the Holocaust denier newsgroup, but he seemed to
> catch on that he was preaching to the choir there.

So what? You, I and many others have our own hobby horses too. I have a
selection of news paper clippings about Canadian Politics, religious
fanatics, the holocaust industry and rightwing propaganda. Whenever I
feel something is wrong, I will say so. I do not hate religious people,
Jews, or people who have a different political view than I have. If  I
feel that somebody is wrong, I am prepared to tell him so. I do not mind
at ALL when people are telling me where I am wrong and if this people
can explain to me what is a better way to do things, more power to them.


> 
> His approach is clever, far cleverer than the pornographic ravings of
> a Julius Streicher. For awhile, at least, he can deny that his purpose
> is antisemitic. But the pattern becomes clear after awhile. Ask
> yourself what relevance Christopher Hitchens's opinions on Irving and
> Goldhagen have in the newsgroups can.politics, can.general,
> soc.culture.canada, bc.general, or ab.general. The answer should be:
> "none whatever." Slepokura is just after a bigger audience than he
> could get when he could get in alt.revisionism.

How would Streicher produced pronographic material? This seems highly
unlikely consider the political climate during the Nazi area!

Never read Hitchen or Irving. No comment on this. About audience? Lets
be honest with yourself. We ALL are looking for an audience here.

> 
> >I went to the Julius Streicher
> >school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
> >group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
> >not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
> >bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
> >long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
> >MvVay walk in Streicher’s foot steps.
> 
> I read a few of your posts while reading the Goldhagen threads, and
> the illogic of this response seems pretty much typical. I have a
> reason for comparing Slepokura to Julius Streicher because "there is a
> certain pattern here with guy's like" him.
> 
> You, on the other hand, know nothing about me, about whether it is my
> habit to give people "bad names" or whether I label people liars. You
> simply assumed from my .sig line that I am a certain kind of person
> and levelled an accusation at me without knowing whether your
> assumption was reliable. In fact, you did to me what you accuse me of
> doing to Slepokura. Perhaps for some people, times never do change.

Well; like I said. From 1939 to 1947 I went to the Julius Steicher
school to learn the 3 R’ s. It was only in 1946 we were made aware who
Julius Streicher was. Julius Streicher a former teacher, journalist
published "DER STÜRMER" This hate literature against the Jews was
published to get people worked up. There were many ways Streicher
portrayed the Jews. The information I got from older people goes like
this in all of his printings Jews were liars, people who are dishonest
and many other things. You know the results. At the Nürnberg trial
Streicher was sentenced to hang for spreading hate propaganda. I
remember very well because I did live close by.

Yes I did fire back in kind to make sure that you know how it feels
being labeled. By comparing Slepokura with Streicher, you chose to use
the same tactics as the Nazi’s, You are trying to discredit a person
because you do not like what he says, plain and simple.

The echo comes back very clear. When you shout into the forest the echo
will come back.

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:15:49 EDT 1998
Article: 74128 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <3561CCB2.5E5CC1D3@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
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Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Collins speaks for all of us !!!!!
References:  <356092EC.BB2D225C@istar.ca> <6jq7io$a75$1@news.trends.ca> <3560D751.3ED4D12C@istar.ca> <6js8aq$s95$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3560D751.3ED4D12C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 
> [I asked]
> 
> >> Does Mr. Knoll, or does he not, state that I want to censor Holocaust
> >> deniers? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
> 
> >You never said that you will CENSOR holocaust deniers. What I was and
> >will  say again and again that your statement that You
> >will not censor holocaust deniers means nothing to me.
> 
> Mr. Knoll was not asked what _I_ might have said. Mr. Knoll was asked
> what _he_ has said. As usual,
> 
>  Mr. Knoll declines to answer. No surprise there. Mr. Knoll usually
>  does that when asked a simple, direct question.

Listen you clown. I am trying to save taxpayers money by keeping you out
of the lunatic bin. Everybody should be happy for that.

You see; I read your yes or no question about 5 time and could not
figure out what you are getting at. It stands to reason that when you
said that you will not censor people than I could not say that you did.

On May 6, 1998 I said that your style and actions will resuld in turning
people off. With other words, whilst you say that you do not sencor
people, this people are turned off

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Subject:      Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
From:         Werner Knoll 
Date:         1998/05/06
Message-ID:   <355067AF.AC1767B8@istar.ca>
Newsgroups:   can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to can.politics]

Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to silence
people. Who are this people in your organization with so much power?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

What happen to your statement about Mrs. Plechinger labeling you a
liar??

You see Ken; I do not consider you a honest person at all. You have
shown over and over again that you are manipulating people to make
things look good for you. You are a disgrace to your sponsors and any
other decent person. I am surprised that your sponsors have not let you
go yet.

YOU CAN BE REPLACED. Start looking for a job NOW.

Werner Knoll
Phys Ed should be taught by RC priests. Wrestling would go like: This
hold (one arm pinning the neck) is the half nelson. This hold (two arms
pinning the neck) is the full nelson.  This hold (two arms pinning the
neck and hips thrusting) is the Father
Taken off the Internet.


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:15:50 EDT 1998
Article: 74129 of bc.general
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From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
Subject: Re: Collins speaks for all of us !!!!!
References:  <356092EC.BB2D225C@istar.ca> <6jq7io$a75$1@news.trends.ca> <3560D751.3ED4D12C@istar.ca> <6js9fq$stf$1@news.trends.ca>
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <3560D751.3ED4D12C@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll   wrote:
> 



[SNIP]
======================================================================
> >And a new charter was written after Ken McVay took over that was a very
> >big step down from the original,
> >even though Ken claimed it was an "improvement in quality."  This new
> >charter reflected an author who is narrowminded and over-controlling.
> >It also even more noticable was that it made *Revisionism* of all things
> >the point of reference for everything!!  Uh, I thought the *Shoah
=======================================================================
The words narrow minded, controlling, domineering and turning people off
come to my mind here.

I can not help you to slander this lady because I do not know her.
Perhaps you should do some soul searching if there is such a thing. It
is not possiple that eveyone is wrong and you are always right. Better
start to grow up.

Remember you can be replaced.

Werner Knoll
"Distrust all in whom the impulse to Punish is powerful"
Friedrich Nietzsche.


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:15:51 EDT 1998
Article: 74267 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
References:  <3561591b.48282020@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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Xref: trends.ca can.politics:232953 can.general:118575 soc.culture.canada:146142 bc.general:74267 ab.general:59178 alt.revisionism:176891

John Morris wrote:
> 
> In , on Sat, 09 May
> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> >Hitler's Ghost
> 
> >by Christopher Hitchens
> 

[snip]
> 
> --
>  John Morris                                
>  at University of Alberta  
> --
>  The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
>  The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
>  The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/

Do you know who Julius Streicher was?? I went to the Julius Streicher
school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
MvVay walk in Streicher’ s foot steps.

Werner Knoll
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe
absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire


From werk@istar.ca Thu May 21 18:15:51 EDT 1998
Article: 74290 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <356454EA.8AF9FAFE@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada,bc.general,ab.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens on David Irving and Daniel Goldhagen
References:  <3561591b.48282020@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca> <3565d82f.39273099@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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John Morris wrote:
> 
> In <3563B95C.A34D5C52@istar.ca>, on Thu, 21 May 1998 05:20:21 GMT,
> Werner Knoll  wrote:
> 
> >John Morris wrote:
> 
> >> In , on Sat, 09 May
> >> 1998 22:30:45 -0600, slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura),
> >> Canada's answer to Julius Streicher, wrote, or rather posted:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Do you know who Julius Streicher was??
> 
> Indeed, I do. And I compared Orest Slepokura to Streicher quite on
> purpose.
> 
> I don't know how long you have been reading Usenet, but I have watched
> Orest Slepokura's activities for several years now. His posts have one
> consistent theme: to post every snippet he can find from newspapers
> which cast Jews in a bad light. He used to post mostly to
> alt.revisionism, the Holocaust denier newsgroup, but he seemed to
> catch on that he was preaching to the choir there.

So what? You, I and many others have our own hobby horses too. I have a
selection of news paper clippings about Canadian Politics, religious
fanatics, the holocaust industry and rightwing propaganda. Whenever I
feel something is wrong, I will say so. I do not hate religious people,
Jews, or people who have a different political view than I have. If  I
feel that somebody is wrong, I am prepared to tell him so. I do not mind
at ALL when people are telling me where I am wrong and if this people
can explain to me what is a better way to do things, more power to them.


> 
> His approach is clever, far cleverer than the pornographic ravings of
> a Julius Streicher. For awhile, at least, he can deny that his purpose
> is antisemitic. But the pattern becomes clear after awhile. Ask
> yourself what relevance Christopher Hitchens's opinions on Irving and
> Goldhagen have in the newsgroups can.politics, can.general,
> soc.culture.canada, bc.general, or ab.general. The answer should be:
> "none whatever." Slepokura is just after a bigger audience than he
> could get when he could get in alt.revisionism.

How would Streicher produced pronographic material? This seems highly
unlikely consider the political climate during the Nazi area!

Never read Hitchen or Irving. No comment on this. About audience? Lets
be honest with yourself. We ALL are looking for an audience here.

> 
> >I went to the Julius Streicher
> >school in the thirties and never hear so much nonsense as on this news
> >group. There is a certain pattern here with  guy's like you. If you do
> >not like what somebody else has to say, call them lairs or give them a
> >bad name. That what Streicher told us about Jews. Times never change as
> >long there are people like John Morris are around. You and your friend
> >MvVay walk in Streicher’s foot steps.
> 
> I read a few of your posts while reading the Goldhagen threads, and
> the illogic of this response seems pretty much typical. I have a
> reason for comparing Slepokura to Julius Streicher because "there is a
> certain pattern here with guy's like" him.
> 
> You, on the other hand, know nothing about me, about whether it is my
> habit to give people "bad names" or whether I label people liars. You
> simply assumed from my .sig line that I am a certain kind of person
> and levelled an accusation at me without knowing whether your
> assumption was reliable. In fact, you did to me what you accuse me of
> doing to Slepokura. Perhaps for some people, times never do change.

Well; like I said. From 1939 to 1947 I went to the Julius Steicher
school to learn the 3 R’ s. It was only in 1946 we were made aware who
Julius Streicher was. Julius Streicher a former teacher, journalist
published "DER STÜRMER" This hate literature against the Jews was
published to get people worked up. There were many ways Streicher
portrayed the Jews. The information I got from older people goes like
this in all of his printings Jews were liars, people who are dishonest
and many other things. You know the results. At the Nürnberg trial
Streicher was sentenced to hang for spreading hate propaganda. I
remember very well because I did live close by.

Yes I did fire back in kind to make sure that you know how it feels
being labeled. By comparing Slepokura with Streicher, you chose to use
the same tactics as the Nazi’s, You are trying to discredit a person
because you do not like what he says, plain and simple.

The echo comes back very clear. When you shout into the forest the echo
will come back.

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 25 05:57:44 EDT 1998
Article: 118712 of can.general
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Message-ID: <356645FA.B9D77E47@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
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gcarr wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone out there has recently appealled an EI
> disqualification. I worked for 2 and a half weeks at SPF Precut Lumber
> in Port Moody, BC with my employment ending on Dec 2/97.  I quit after
> two stacks of lumber collappsed on me and a saw blade went whipping
> into a wall on Dec.2nd. During the brief period of time I worked there
> I saw numerous safety violations including boards being fired through
> the air by faulty machinery and a fire. It was the most unsafe
> workplace I have ever worked at. WCB recently cited SPF for 16
> violations after they had 5 months to clean up their act. It took me
> over 4 months to get my final cheque from SPF and I never recieved a
> record of employment despite the fact my former employer claims he
> mailed it on Jan.12/98.

Young man; I am having a hard time believing what you are saying. Could
I be wrong in assuming that you were born with two left hands? Or is it
that you are not interested to go ahead in your live?

Werner Knoll
Phys Ed should be taught by RC priests. Wrestling would go like: This
hold (one arm pinning the neck) is the half nelson. This hold (two arms
pinning the neck) is the full nelson.  This hold (two arms pinning the
neck and hips thrusting) is the Father
Taken off the Internet.


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 25 06:00:42 EDT 1998
Article: 233373 of can.politics
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Subject: Re: French Separatist Running Ottawa Hospital An Outrage To English Canada
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Wayne Allen wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:

>         Hey Werner, I got headlines for you!
> 
> This is Ottawa.  People loose and are denied jobs because they are
> anglophone every day.  What do you think about that as intolerance.
> There is no freedom to be anglophone and be employed in Ottawa.  The Nazis
> discriminated against jews but the Liberals discriminate against anglophones.
> What's the difference?

Well the squeaky wheel always gets most of the grease. Ottawa is trying
to please the French and in doing so is alienating the anglophone. We
all know that is wrong. There is nothing wrong with complaining about
this. However to use this as a weapon to oust  this business
administrator does not make it right.

Werner Knoll
Man cannot whistle and drink at the same time.
1586 OE-704


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 25 06:00:42 EDT 1998
Article: 233681 of can.politics
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cplechinger@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I never thought I would ever be posting in a NG devoted
> to Canadian politics. However, I have been informed that
> an old post of mine in soc.culture.jewish has come up
> here and that Ken McVay is saying here in can.politics
> that I have no credibility, etc.
> 
> I have not yet read what has been posted about me by
> Ken here.  I shall do so shortly and respond.
> 
> Thank You,
> Cecelia
> 
> Cecelia Plechinger     cplechinger@my-dejanews.com
>




Actually Ken is suppose to be the good guy. As I pointed out to him what
you said in your posting: Narrow minded, controlling, domineering and
turning people off. He question the charter?

"And a new charter was written after Ken McVay took over that was a very 
big step down from the original,"

Ken has one good quality however. Sometimes he is making good points but
in doing so, he is pushing everything he build up so well with his ass
down. That is really sad.

Werner Knoll


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==--=-=
Subject:      Re: Is 'soc.culture.jewish.holocaust' down ???
From:         plechinger@hotmail.com (Cecelia Plechinger)
Date:         1997/12/02
Message-ID:   <65vlrn$p22@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
Newsgroups:   soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to soc.culture.jewish]

In article <347bc938.1264254@news.inode.at>, landauf@inode.at says...

>
>Is NG 'soc.culture.jewish.holocaust' down ?
>It is there on my newsserver, but for months no new postings.

Same here.

>Does anyone know the details ?

I do not know exactly, being that the moderators (Nizkor!)
who took over after the founders were no longer able to devote 
the time necessary are silent.


Nizkor is good at publicizing itself and making it look bigger
than it really is, but it is mostly form and little substance.
It claimed to have "hundreds of volunteers" but in reality it
was a small cadre. Its chief, Ken McVay, who I knew online before
Nizkor was founded, is quite narrow-minded, controling, and domineering.
It is his way or no way. Instead of helping people grow and develope
re the Shoah, and face it, he wants to shove his own very particular
view (not necessarily same as the Particularists) onto others. 
Basically,
if, based on who-knows-what detail, he likes you and  makes a decision
to
like you very soon, he will exclude you and give you run-around.

After awile, even some people in his closest cadre got fed up and left.

So now, with less manpower, he is no longer able to "tightly control"
(Ken's actual words!) soc.culture.jewish.holocaust .  So, rather than
let somebody else take over the moderating (and somebody he cannot
control, but still a competent person to moderate), he just lets
scjh sit there empty and unused.

This should not go on.

SCJH was origninally founded here in SCJ as a way to move Shoah-related
discussions out of SCJ, to free up SCJ for other things.  Also, the
founders wanted to make it moderated "to keep out neo-Nazis and
deniers."
They could have had moderation only in a group other than SCJ.  Also,
this
was back before SCJ itself became overcrowed and a playground for
anti-Jewish
posters.

The original charter as written by the founders who worked out of
University
of North Carolina of Chapel Hill was quite fine and fair to all
fair-minded
people.  They accepted a wide variety of posts and when they rejected
any
of them, they sent the poster an personalized e-mail explaining the
exact
reason for the rejection and inviting a rewritten resubmission. 
  
But then one day they announced that they no longer have time to
do it and asked for a new set of moderators to take over.

Ken McVay jumped at this chance. Himself, along with his appointees,
"Jamie" and "Harry" (last names withheld), took over.  When I asked
the identies of this "Jamie" and this "Harry" I received no reply.
I speculate that they were Jamie McCarthy and Harry Mazal.  

Jamie is not Jewish and neither is Ken.  I do not know what Harry is.
But yet, in spite the fact that 2/3 and maybe even 3/3 of the moderators
were NON-Jews, the newsgroup remained soc.culture.JEWISH.holocaust.
I think (and I thought this even when the U. North Carolina people were
moderating) that a better name would have been simply

because it is not just a Jewish issue.  (The word "Shoah" instead of
"Holocaust" excludes from the NG tragedies other than the anti-Jewish
Nazi Holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's, so the word "Jewish" would be
unnecessary in the NG name if the word "Shoah" was included.) 

But when  Nizkor took over, the inclusion of the word "Jewish" seemed 
to be crying out with anguish that control of the NG that is supposed 
to be Jew-centric (at least by looking at the NG name) was in the hands 
of Goyim.

Also, if Jews wanted a specifically Jewish forum to discuss
Shoah-related
issues, a sister newsgroup for  called
 could be created. By the same logic, a
 could be created (and can do much good in
an area where much good badly needs done!!!).

And a new charter was written after Ken McVay took over that was a very 
big step down from the original,
even though Ken claimed it was an "improvement in quality."  This new
charter reflected an author who is narrowminded and over-controlling.
It also even more noticable was that it made *Revisionism* of all things
the point of reference for everything!!  Uh, I thought the *Shoah
itself*
was supposed to be the point of reference.

But no, Ken chose to focus on only one implication of the Shoah.
It is ok for one person to focus on only on implication such as
Revisionism/denial, but it is not ok for a moderated newsgroup that 
claims to be a *general Jewish
Shoah-related newsgroup* to be limited to such a focus. If Ken's 
personal posts to scjh were to be mainly on the deniers, that would 
have been OK, but what he did was judge each and every submission on 
how it fit his anti-Revisionist criteria and on no other factor
seemingly.

The focus, even obsession, with *Revisionism* was so overarching that
the newsgroup would be much better named 
than soc.culture.jewish.holocaust

Ken also denied many more posts that the U. North Carolina founders. 
And he gave no explanation.  All the poster got was a form e-mail
letter.  This letter's first few paragraphs pontificated about how
scjh rejects revisionist denialist posts and how terrible such posters
are!  Even very Shoah-believing rejected posts got this rejection
letter!!
It is only far into the form letter that it says that the post might
also
have been rejected because the moderators decided it was "too lengthly
or 
off topic."   

Just think of how many people who are just trying for the first time in
their lives to come out of their shell on the Shoah, and who ask an
honest question, but Ken, in his paranoia against "deniers" deems to be
"denialist."  How many such people were driven back into their shells
never 
to come out again or come out only after many years!!  How invalidating
it must have been for these people and how hurt when they might have had
to gather up much courage to ask a question in the first place.  Asking
little questions in a NG is a first step some people need before they
can
go on to read books and such.  But many people wanting to try to face
the Shoah got beat down by Ken on their first attempt!  

Oh, yes, Ken also dictated that a post must be "historically
accurate."  But an honest question from a person who is only starting
out
or who has heard bad information due to no fault of his or her own (and 
it is not only the Revisionists
who have been putting out "bad information" over the years!!) will often
not meet Ken's "historically accruate" standard.  One has to be already
well-read on the Shoah (and in accord with Ken's paradeigm of it) to
get a post approved oftentimes.  People who are already well-read or
well-networked are *not* the people who need scjh the most. The ones who
need it most are ones like me who are trying to come out, trying to find
study-partners, and so forth.  Yet is is we who would get his with an
e-mail accusing us of having evil motives and such.  Most beginners are
too disheartened by such abusive reject letters that they never got the
the latter paragraph where it says that posts also get rejected for
being "too lengthy or off topic."

And a resubmission was requested, but no specific guidance of the kind
I valued so much from the U. North Carolina founders was to be had.

And Ken had unstated criteria too.  For example, I once submitted an
approximately 3 to 5 K post stating that I am thinking of going on
a medically-supervised hunger strike to promote Shoah education and
activism.  (I hate the word "awareness" -- people who need to be reached
are already painfully "aware" -- they need a chance to put their 
pre-existing awarness to constructive use!).  I was asking if others
thought this was a good or a bad idea.  Well, *this* got the form letter
rejection pontificating how "we reject
and loath your revisionist post ... also, you post might have been
rejected
due to being too long or being off topic."   

Mine hunger strike submission was not Holocaust
Revisionist, not too long, nor off topic by any stretch of the
imagination.
Yet Ken saw it unfit.  I asked him why specifially, but got no reply.

It is obvious that scjh is its current form is impotent.  Since it was
created by discussion here, I think here we should discuss its
demolition
and reorganization under new management.  I think that demolishing it is
the only way to get it away from Ken.  If it cannot be demolished
without
his consent, then we can just go and form soc.culture.shoah with
competent
moderators.  It can then do the job that Ken will not permit scjh to do.

Cecelia Plechinger    plechinger@hotmail.com


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 25 06:00:43 EDT 1998
Article: 233684 of can.politics
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Message-ID: <35689033.4040C280@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
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Subject: Re: ,Knoll,speaks,for,none,of,us
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cplechinger@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> 
> Ken McVay posted a msg with the following header:
> 
> > Subject:      Knoll speaks for none of us
> > From:         kmcvay@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
> > Date:         1998/05/08
> > Message-ID:   <6itkbv$abi$1@news.trends.ca>
> > Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org
> > Newsgroups:   can.politics
> 
> *What* he posted about Werner Knoll is not the topic of this
> f/u of mine.  Therefore I did not quote any of the text of
> Ken's anti-Knoll msg.
> 
> I am just pointing out that Ken thinks he has the authority
> to speak for *all* of the participants of .
> I at least, presume that the "us" in "Knoll speaks for
> none of us" is intended by Ken to be a pronoun for "all
> of the participants of ."

> 
> Ken's post would have been more appropriately titled:
> "Knoll does not speak for me" or "Knoll does not speak
> for me and my friends" etc.
> 
> Ken, in other NGs, you tried and perhaps still try (I have
> not visited alt.revisionism and such in quite a while)
> to appoint yourself as the spokesperson for all "correct"
> Shoah education, research, advocacy, and such. Yet, you
> represent only a portion of all Shoah educators, researchers,
> advocates, etc.
> 
> However, Ken, we are a varied bunch, Ken. You do not
> speak for all of us, yet you put yourself forth as doing
> so.
> 
> Notice I said you do not speak for *all* of us. You do
> indeed speak for and reflect the views and methods of
> *some* people who are in the Shoah ed, research, and
> advocacy field, but *only* some. Forsteh? (Yiddish for
> "Get it?, Capice?, Understand?").  But, only *some.*

Ken will nichts Verstehen. Ken has not learned to listen and trying to
find a consensus. Instead he works under the assumption that everybody
else is wrong. He is doing to all the Jewish people I had contact with a
disserves. This people like me had to take a lot of flag for something
they had absolutely no control over and were more than willing to
understand me. This is a rotten world we are living in and only by
listening and respecting each other, can we live peacefully side by
side.
> 
> As much as I disagree with your tactics and attitude,
> I did not have the chutzpah (Yiddish for "audacity") to
> assert that you speak for *none* of us.
> 
> Yet you have the chutzpah to assert that Werner Knoll
> speaks for nobody, not a single soul, in this NG
>  other than himself.
> 
> Tsk tsk tsk, Ken.
> 
> Cecelia Plechinger      cplechinger@my-dejanews.com
> 
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


From werk@istar.ca Mon May 25 06:01:19 EDT 1998
Article: 74389 of bc.general
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Message-ID: <356645FA.B9D77E47@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
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gcarr wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone out there has recently appealled an EI
> disqualification. I worked for 2 and a half weeks at SPF Precut Lumber
> in Port Moody, BC with my employment ending on Dec 2/97.  I quit after
> two stacks of lumber collappsed on me and a saw blade went whipping
> into a wall on Dec.2nd. During the brief period of time I worked there
> I saw numerous safety violations including boards being fired through
> the air by faulty machinery and a fire. It was the most unsafe
> workplace I have ever worked at. WCB recently cited SPF for 16
> violations after they had 5 months to clean up their act. It took me
> over 4 months to get my final cheque from SPF and I never recieved a
> record of employment despite the fact my former employer claims he
> mailed it on Jan.12/98.

Young man; I am having a hard time believing what you are saying. Could
I be wrong in assuming that you were born with two left hands? Or is it
that you are not interested to go ahead in your live?

Werner Knoll
Phys Ed should be taught by RC priests. Wrestling would go like: This
hold (one arm pinning the neck) is the half nelson. This hold (two arms
pinning the neck) is the full nelson.  This hold (two arms pinning the
neck and hips thrusting) is the Father
Taken off the Internet.


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 26 20:50:59 EDT 1998
Article: 118905 of can.general
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Message-ID: <356A079E.CC0D8C62@istar.ca>
From: Werner Knoll 
Reply-To: werk@istar.ca
Organization: The Knoll's
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general
Subject: Re: Slepokura on Goldhagen
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richf@iname.com wrote:
> 
> Dear members of this group:
> 
> In regards to the Finkelstein/Goldhagen controversy:
> 
> Mr. Tom Segev, a noted journalist and historian, writes in the leading Israeli
> newspaper, Ha'aretz:
> 
> "And now Goldhagen has set up his own Internet site to refute the claims of
> two of his harshest critics: Ruth Bettina Birn of Canada and Norman J.
> Finkelstein of Hunter College, University of New York. Both of them have done
> the unthinkable: They have checked his references, one by one, and reached the
> conclusion that "Hitler's Willing Executioners" is not worthy of being called
> an academic text.It is a tiresome task, requiring a comparison of texts and a
> careful examination of sources.  What is interesting about it, though, is that
> the debate has veered off track. It has become a political debate, and at its
> core surprise, surprise is Zionism, the State of Israel and the Palestinian
> problem. As things stand now, anyone who criticizes Goldhagen is an
> anti-Semite, possibly a Holocaust-denier, and certainly an opponent of the
> State of Israel.  And it goes the other way, too. Anyone who supports Israel
> must support Goldhagen and fight those who attack him."
> 
> Mordecai Briemberg, a journalist for the Canadian newspaper Outlook writes:
> 
> Who defends intellectual freedom?
> 
> Holocaust historian Michael Marrus, dean of graduate studies at the University
> of Toronto, calls the attack on Birn "a scandal". He describes her work as "a
> distinguished contribution". He wonders if Birn, as archivist with the
> war-crimes unit of the Justice Department, might not be a scapegoat for the
> "failed" policy of criminally prosecuting those who had participated in Nazi
> atrocities.
> 
> Noam Chomsky has expressed similar high regard for the scholarship of
> Finkelstein, as has Avi Shlaim, an Israeli scholar in Finkelstein's field, now
> teaching at Oxford.
> 
> But in general, there is a shameful public silence from those individuals and
> organizations who pride themselves on being being defenders of intellectual
> freedom in our country.
> 
> Where is their courage to speak publicly when the substantive issues are
> Zionism, Holocaust scholarship and explanations for Nazi extermination
> policies? Are they prepared to consign these vital events to one political
> organization for its "official" public account? Are they prepared to abandon
> to public pillory, intimidation, and unemployment those whose scholarship and
> integrity does not serve that political organization's agenda?

Are you trying to say that people who do not hold the official line
about the holocaust, will not find a JOB?

I have news for you There was a movie in the thirties called "Jud Süss?"
A movie who portrayed Jewish people in a bad way. Today you would call
this movie hate propaganda. Some of this actors could not get a job
after 1945 because the played a roll in this movie. I would not be
surprised if the cleaning lady was punished for that too.

What we have here today, a witch hunt by Jewish organizations. The sad
part is that so many people out there are afraid today to speak up
against this kind of blackmail.

Marin Niemöller said:

They came for the Jews and I did not speak out -  because I was not a
Jew.
Then they came for the communist and I did not speak out - because I was
not a communist.
Than the came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out - because
I was not a trade unionist.
Than they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Let me paraphrase his words:
First they came for Demanjuk and I did not speak out because it was not
me.
Than they came for Finkelstein and I did not speak out because it was
not me.
Than they came for Ruth Bettina Birn and I did not speak out because it
was not me.
Than the came for me but there was no one left to speak out for me.

But this time it is not the Nazi’s. 

Werner Knoll
The great masses of people…..  tend to be corrupted rather than
consciously and purposely evil and…. the more easily fall to a big lie
than to a little one.
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1925





> 
> There have been voices so eloquent and animated when persecution comes from
> proclaimers of other political orthodoxies. Where are they now?"
> 
> The full articles for the above excerpts and other articles on the
> Finkelstein/Goldhagen controversey are available at
> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com
> 
> Richard and Henry Finkelstein
> brothers of Prof. Norman Finkelstein
> 
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


From werk@istar.ca Tue May 26 20:50:59 EDT 1998
Article: 118978 of can.general
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Kevin Ettery wrote:
> 
> Dear Nospam,
> 
> This might have been of more relevance if you posted it to CAN.GENERAL
> (which is in Canada) rather than CANB.GENERAL (which is half the world away
> in Canberra, Australia).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Kevin
> 
> On the Front  wrote in article
> <356A08D3.327272BF@rogers.wave.ca>...
> >
> > Recently the Ottawa Hospital Board decided to ignore public outcry and
> stand by their decision to keep a Quebec separatist as a board member.
> >

It makes no difference where Canberra Australia is. Their goal is to
harass this board members in the name of democracy. Way to go, If the do
not like what they see, the make everybody to pay for this. In the main
time, they like to keep their own privacy.

Werner Knoll
Surrey BC Canada

 "Ultimately most problems can be solved by applying a Large Brick to
the Correct Skull.  Difficulties
arise when you don't have a brick or can't find the right skull.  The
Devil is always in the details."


From werk@istar.ca Mon Jun  1 10:46:32 EDT 1998
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Gerald H.Hall wrote:
> 
>         Will there be a nuclear war?
> 
>         News headline: "Test by Pakistan revive global nuclear tensions."
>         Vancouver Sun, May 29, 1998.
> 
>         World leaders are in a panic today because of the recent explos-
>         ion of five nuclear devices by India, followed by five explosions
>         by its enemy Pakistan May 28, 1998.
> 
>         Will there be a nuclear war?  Things are certainly shaping up
>         in that direction on the international scene. There's an ancient
>         book called the Bible which predicted some very strange things
>         1950 years ago which have a direct bearing on the nuclear dilemma
>         we find ourselves in today. Unfortunately many of our top polit-
>         icians and academics do not know what is written in the Bible as
>         they have never bothered to read it.

[...]
 
>         "But the day of the Lord will come AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, in
>         which the HEAVENS WILL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELE-
>         MENTS WILL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT; BOTH THE EARTH AND THE WORKS
>         THAT ARE IN IT WILL BE BURNED UP.
> 
>         "Therefore since all these things will be dissolved, what manner
>         of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking
>         for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which
>         the HEAVENS WILL BE DISSOLVED being on fire, and THE ELEMENTS WILL
>         MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT?" NKJV II Peter 3: 4-12
> 


I have read the bible in the thirties and forties. And is exactly like
you say here. My father was a practicing Christian and I do remember
very well when he said that trouble will start in the far and middle
east. When this is going to happen, than the end of this world is near.
I do hope that he was right.

What we have today, people who are driven by greed, no compassion for
their fellow men. Perhaps this free enterprise supporters  will realize
that all their possession are of no value when we make the trip into
this inferno together. Equality at last.

Werner Knoll
Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul,
and no claimed private ownership of any  possessions, but everything
they owned was held in common. With great power the apostles gave their
testimony to the resurrection  of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was
upon them all.  There was
not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or  houses
sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold.  They laid it at
the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as
any had need.

Other relevant passages include Matthew 25:14-46, Luke 6:20-31 and James
2:1-7.


From werk@istar.ca Mon Jun  1 10:46:32 EDT 1998
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D.Hu wrote:
> 
> Aren't YOU  the little racist....

Why should he be a racist for giving the facts of life? When you read
history, than you will find that parties or group welcome smaller groups
in order to defeat the common enemy. After this is accomplished this
minorities are not longer needed and become the next target.

The Reform party is a law and order party, so were the Nazies!

Werner Knoll
"Distrust all in whom the impulse to Punish is powerful"
Friedrich Nietzsche.


> 
> Thomas Lau wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 19 May 1998, D.Hu wrote:
> >
> > >       Also, there are many first-generation immigrants within the Reform Party of Canada, not all of them
> > > being white. There are first generation non-white immigrants within the Reform Executive Council and
> > > others who acted as coordinators of candidates during elections. There isn't a party which only
> > > non-white immigrants belong to. THAT, would truly be a racist party.
> >
> > These non-whites who have joined the Reform Party are curious subjects
> > akin to a Jew who would join the National Socialist Party (the Nazis) in
> > Germany before WWII.


From werk@istar.ca Mon Jun  1 10:50:42 EDT 1998
Article: 235073 of can.politics
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Erik wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll  wrote in article
> <356E454F.6299202B@istar.ca>...
> 
> > Why would anybody with a brain vote for a candidate he likes knowing
> > well that his parties platform is wrong??
> >
> > Everybody knows that Party Policies comes first.
> >
> 
> Yeah, but when you don't like what any of the parties stand for (if they
> stand for anything), it basically comes down to either voting for
> worthwhile local candidates if there are any, or not voting at all.  I
> supported Corky Evans & Jim Gouk in the last provincial & federal
> elections, respectively.  This may have something to do with my brain
> dysfunction, but I felt better voting this way than I will when I support
> the Liberals in the next BC election.  If Campbell's still around I hope
> they've got barf bags on hand for folks entering the voting booths.
> 
> E.

Somehow I do have the feeling that people do not know how the political
system works. I been told many times that voting for the man is
what counts. Wrong!

Party policies are established at conventions. If you like their
policies and are not a member of this party, than you vote for the man
who represents this party in your riding and not for somebody else you
like.

If You are a member of a particular party, you would campaign very hard
to get the right person nominated  to represent your party in the next
election.

In a perfect world, it should be the person who can do the job, not a
person you do like.

Werner Knoll
The’ feller that agrees with every’ thing you say is either a fool or he
is ready to skin you.
Kin Hubbard


From werk@istar.ca Mon Jun  1 10:50:43 EDT 1998
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Gordo wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll wrote:
> >
> > Gordo wrote:
> > >
> > > I think one of the greatest shortcomings of our electoral system is the
> > > fact that you pretty much have to get the MLA or MP in your area, whose
> > > party has won the election!  If you don't you are screwed for the next 4
> > > to 5 years!  Have you ever voted for a person in your region that was
> > > the best candidate, but disliked the party that they stood for?
> >
> > Why would anybody with a brain vote for a candidate he likes knowing
> > well that his parties platform is wrong??
> >
> > Everybody knows that Party Policies comes first.
> >
> > Werner Knoll
> > Man cannot whistle and drink at the same time.
> > 1586 OE-704
> 
> Well, one problem Werner is that the way the parties are going now,
> trying to embrace EVERYTHING and really standing for nothing, except
> re-election and pension, it makes it very difficult to vote.  The Left
> is moving to the right, the right to the left.  When you vote, you have
> a pretty good idea who is going to come out the winner nationally, but
> regionally, you may despise their candidate, and see much more promise
> in another individual who is running say, as an independent!  So, what
> your choices are, is elect someone inept, or elect a person who will
> have no voice!  Either way you lose.  That is one of the major failings
> of the Partisan Political system!

I know of what you are talking about. If you had a party who likes to
change thing for the better, this changes would bring some hardship
at the beginning, what chances would there be for this party to get
elected?

Surrey Leader February 28 1998

My words. We had elections here in Surrey on the municipal level was won
by some of the candidates in the 1996 election with less than 7.53% of
the ballots cast.

Last week was a by election and the voters turn out was a little more
than 10%. There were over 10 candidates running for one position.

As with most elections, the party with the finances and the support of
the news media as the foreskin for their sponsors (Business) has the
best chance of winning. Sanctimoniously they tell you after the election
that things are not right but in the main time the feel comfortable with
the results as long they work in their favor.

Werner Knoll
If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you; but if you
really make them think, they’ll hate you.
Don Marquis.


From werk@istar.ca Mon Jun  1 10:50:43 EDT 1998
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Gerald H.Hall wrote:
> 
> 09@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>:  <6hbbf2$sgj$1@neptune.uniserve.com>
> : <35416F9A.5F7E@earthlink.net>
> <6ht42i$eru$1@news.net-quest.com> <6i4ppc$dj$1@server1.incc.net> <6i57mc$9h7$1@news.net-quest.com> <6i5c85$24v$1@server1.i
> 
> ncc.net> <355A82DA.94F7343C@norex.com.au> <6jet4o$i3c$1@server1.incc.net> <355E2C93.E8F9D98E@istar.ca>
> Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet
> Distribution:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) wrote:
> :
> :
> : Well ! I have read the Bible in the forties.
> :
>         I doubt that you have ever read the bible Werner. Your ignorance
>         proves it.
> :
> :       I have used the Bible as toilet paper in the forties because there
>         was no other toilet paper around.
> :
>         : "God can do everything"!
> :
>         The problem with you Knoll is that you are living in the wrong
>         country. Canada was established on the Christianity by Chistian
>         leaders.  If you want to be free of religion you should move to
>         North Korea. Don't foregt to take you hypertension pills with
>         you.

What makes you think that the North Korean have no God to worship? Read
the newspaper lately? Have you talked to our Native Indians how the were
stopped from practicing their religion by CHRISTIAN LEADERS? Fact, the
more a country is religious, the more people loose their freedom. Look
at Muslim countries.


> 
>         Canada is one of the wealthies and freeist countries in the world
>         and the reason it is so, is that it was rooted and grounded in
>         the Christian religion.  Only a very ignorant and poorly informed
>         person does not know that.
> 
>         Jerry Hall

Ask the American about being wealthy and free! Ask them if the have a
Human Wrong Commission?

Fact is that so many people came to Canada as first settlers because the
wanted to get away from the old country so they could practice their
religion freely. This were Christian countries the were fleeing from!

Ask Jehovah Witnesses what happen to them in Quebec.  

So before you come to any conclusions, do your home work first.

Werner Knoll
The nearer the church the farther from God.
Ca. 1536, T-101


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siber@donotemail.sympatico.ca wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 31 May 1998 01:54:01 GMT, Werner Knoll  wrote:
> 
> >Sheldon Scott wrote:
> >>
> >> Victoria@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
> >> : A perfect example of how Sheldon is totally unfamiliar with the facts.
> >> :
> >> Another premature, inaccurate characterization by the very peculiar
> >> Victoria.  WWII  history is not at all the province of
> >> the academic - it's all over the tube, in books, in movies...
> >> Vicky states below that the German army was not stopped by the
> >> Russian winter.  What nonsense!
> >
> >
> >I do hope there is a difference in-between stopped and slowing down. The
> >war lasted 5 years and did not stop in the first year.
> 
> The war in the Eastern Front lasted less than four years.  The Germans
> were in retreat for the last two years.

The Russian troops entered Berlin in 1945. I have been listening to the
German war report every day in the forties and there was always a report
what happened on the Eastern and Western front.

We were told up to the last day as the Americans and Russians were in
our backyard that we will win at the end :-)))

> 
> it was somehow
> >different when the German army was on retreat. The story is that some of
> >the German allies were not willing to carry on. When the shooting
> >started one of this allied soldiers told Hans: Comrade you shoot, I go
> >for coffee.
> >
> >By the way; this guy was not in a union and there were no negotiated
> >coffee breaks.
> >
> >
> >
>
[...]
> >> ?  When the ground froze, the machines were frozen in mud like
> >> hardened cement.  The krauts had no proper winter clothes,
> >> their weapons didn't work in the cold, and it was
> >> the beginning of the end for them.
> >
> >Let’s see now? Krauts? Are you talking about SAUERKRAUT? Fact is that
> >the frozen ground is helpful in moving machinery. Ask exploration
> >companies who work in the North West Territories.
> 
> But these companies don't use machinery that freezes up when the
> ground does.  And usually, these companies issue their people with
> winter clothing.  Hitler thought his superment didn't need warm
> clothing; He depended on their egos to keep them from freezing.

Barry. I worked in Northern BC for 23 years and let me tell you that
when the temperature dropped to 10 -20 below Fahrenheit, we had our
equipment running day and night. If we started moving our equipment at
first we had to do it very slowly.

Well with ego alone you can not win a war.


> 
> >
> >Fact is that the German army advanced too fast in the first year and the
> >supply could not catch up.
> 
> In a way, you are correct.  But it also had something to do with using
> trains to move jews to death camps instead of using them to take
> supplies to his army.  The little corporals priorities were a little
> confused.

Well some truckers wish they had a full load in both directions.
Schickelgruber was always first and he did not know WHO is second

Werner Knoll
Phys Ed should be taught by RC priests. Wrestling would go like: This
hold (one arm pinning the neck) is the half nelson. This hold (two arms
pinning the neck) is the full nelson.  This hold (two arms pinning the
neck and hips thrusting) is the Father
Taken off the Internet.


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Gerald H.Hall wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) wrote:
> : > :
> : > : Well ! I have read the Bible in the forties.
> : > :
> : >         I doubt that you have ever read the bible Werner. Your ignorance
> : >         proves it.
> : > :
> : > :       I have used the Bible as toilet paper in the forties because there
> : >         was no other toilet paper around.
> : > :


>         Werner, I am very well informed as to what is going on in the
>         world, and I probably know more about its history that you do.
>         You say a lot of things that, simply, do not make sense.
> 
>         On the one hand you say that your father was a devout Christian,
>         and on the other you condemn Christianity.  Your problem is that
>         you really do not know anything about Christianity, and this is
>         probably you are so full of resentment and hatred.  You should
>         follow in your fathers steps and you would probably have more
>         peace of mind. (Why did you agree with me in my posting on
>         a nuclear war?)

My father was born in the late 1800 and was dreaming about a better
world. If he would be around today and sees what is happening, he would
come to a different conclusion. 

I look at reality and see what the human race is all about. I can see
that religion in all cases is used to control people

We are not better than animals; come to think about it animals do not
kill for fun.

Lets look at it from another angle. Everything good I was thought about
the teaching of Jesus Christ did not help me. As a matter of fact by
being helpful to the needy, respecting authority, I was taken advantage
off.  Most of the people I have known in my later live did not live up
to this expectation of being good Christians. Sundays they gone to
church and asked for forgiveness and the rest of the week they started
to sin again. Some practicing Christians! 

(Why did you agree with me in my posting on a nuclear war?) ?  Well,
there are many things written in the Bible I do agree with. It is your
statement from the Bible which brought back the words of what my father
said about the end. You see he reasoned in 1945 that there are more wars
to come because of what he read in the Bible. Times have changed, this
planet cannot forever expand in population. If it is not an atomic war,
it could very well be a natural disaster of catastrophic proportion

Werner Knoll
When you carry the flame of truth through the crowd, it will be hard not
scorch somebody’s beard.
G. C. Lichtenberg


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D.Hu wrote:
> 
> Aren't YOU  the little racist....

Why should he be a racist for giving the facts of life? When you read
history, than you will find that parties or group welcome smaller groups
in order to defeat the common enemy. After this is accomplished this
minorities are not longer needed and become the next target.

The Reform party is a law and order party, so were the Nazies!

Werner Knoll
"Distrust all in whom the impulse to Punish is powerful"
Friedrich Nietzsche.


> 
> Thomas Lau wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 19 May 1998, D.Hu wrote:
> >
> > >       Also, there are many first-generation immigrants within the Reform Party of Canada, not all of them
> > > being white. There are first generation non-white immigrants within the Reform Executive Council and
> > > others who acted as coordinators of candidates during elections. There isn't a party which only
> > > non-white immigrants belong to. THAT, would truly be a racist party.
> >
> > These non-whites who have joined the Reform Party are curious subjects
> > akin to a Jew who would join the National Socialist Party (the Nazis) in
> > Germany before WWII.

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