Subject:      Re: Hate-site complaint rejected!!!
From:         Werner Knoll 
Date:         1998/05/03
Message-ID:   <354CA4BF.4946E26E@istar.ca>
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can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
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John Angus wrote:
> 
> Werner Knoll (werk@istar.ca) writes:
> > John Angus wrote:
> >> Are you then admitting that what you are saying constitutes hate
against
> >> Jews? Are you not going to argue against my position that you are
no
> >> better than those bigots who used to taunt you for being German?
> >
> > My wife looks Jewish. Her father and relatives were during the
Hitler
> > time under constant surveillance because her ancestors had a
Jewish
> > name. I have nor reason to hate Jews or any other racial group.
But
> > hell, I will tell her, My brothers or friends were the are wrong.
if the
> > do not like to be criticized, that is just too bad.
> 
> Will you call them all German nazis when you do so? After all, since
> some Germans are nazis, it's okay to call ALL Germans nazis, right?
> Just like those Jewish industrialists?

This has been done already. Using words like THE Germans or THEY. Now
a
Mister Daniel Goldhagen, Jewish professor in New York say’s that
all
German have a pathological hatred of Jews and wrote a book about this
"Willing Executioners. You think this book will be banned in Canada
for
promoting hatred? What would the reaction be if he wrote ALL JEWS ARE
CROOKS? One prominent Jew said; "The world should never stop to hate
Germans." In earlier times Christians said: The Jews killed Jesus.

What have all this statements in common? This are words used in
everyday
speech to get a point across and in no way means that 100% of any
group
are bad people. For instance Nazi’s. Who is a Nazi? Well I must
have
been one for sure. In 1945 my brother, me and father had to go to
court
to be denazified. I mean what we done was a very very serious offence.
My brother and me were 12 years old in 1945. One question we were
asked,
if we do know anything about some concentration camps. We said no. One
guy on this panel started to grin said "Welllll they didn’t
Knoww"??

> 
> > I am complaining that I as a single person would not get very far
to
> > complain when I am discriminated against but if I were Jewish, I
would
> > have the law behind me. Yes I am happy when any group fights
against
> > discrimination and yes I would be happy if this minority gets the
same
> > preferential treatment.
> 
> Nothing comes for nothing. Just how much effort have you put into
> seeing that some other minority group, or Germans, for that matter,
> get the same treatment as Jews?

I am putting some effort in right now by starting this debate. The
unfortunate part of this that I have only on voice and other people
have
fears of getting harassed if the would take part in this. You see I
have
been a victim of harassment may times and know very well what it means
to be German born. Ask your father what happened to Germans living in
Canada in 1945. Ask German immigrants what happen to them if they did
not say YES to what people had to say about Germans…For this reason
alone I will support anybody who is attacked by some misfits.
> 
> > If the German community would have complained, it would have made
> > matters worse because of  the hate propaganda against everything
what
> > was German in the first 25 years after the war.
> >
> But we're not talking about 25 years ago. We're talking about now,
> when society is somewhat more sensitive to such mistreatment. If
> you resent Jews being protected while you're not then do something
> about it other than calling the Jews names.

We are indeed very fortunate that the younger generation in general
has
a mind of their own an knows what is right and wrong.

Again who are this people from the Simon Wiesenthal Center and other
groups? Have they something in common? Is it a Nationality or
Religion?
Who is Rabbi Marvin Hier from the Wiesenthal centre. Who is he
speaking
for when he talking about Sweden, Spain, Portugal, France Argentina,
Brazil, Uruguay and Switzerland? Are this counties singled out to be 
another cash cow?


> > Fact is that this action against the town of Oliver was not the
action
> > of a single person but the action of a well organized machine. So
who
> > were this people? It was a group of people who like to stop others
they
> > do not agree with no matter what cost. So why should I not say who
is
> > behind this group? You like me to lie?
> 
> Are you suggesting that every Jew in Canada is a member of the B.B.?
> Because I don't think that's how it works at all. The BB is a
special
> interest group like any other, with a limited membership. Like every
> special interest group it has to justify its existence to those who
> finance it. So what?

Are you trying to tell me that there is no communication going on with
other members of this umbrella organizations for a common cause?

> 
> > Yes we all have labels and we all have the ability to do good or
bad. So
> > when I do something wrong people will tell me so without being
punished
> > or labeled as a hate group. If a single person or a group of
people
> > criticize Jewish people than the are told to lay off or else.
> 
> If you could clear your brain enough to realize that labelling all
members
> of a group due to the actions of a few you might understand why that
is.
> If you dislike the political, lobbying, or legal actions of BB then
> criticise BB, not Jews. If you don't like what Israel is doing then
> criticise Israrel, not Jews.

Israel was created as a homeland for the Jews.
> 
> > Moderating my tone? Fact is that people who are not willing to say
> > things for what they are always have been overrun by others.
> 
> I'm pretty honest about my opinions, and while people have called me
> racist and bigot in the past - and a socialist NDPer for that matter
-
> those who do so are mostly ignorant trash without the ability to
> think through things. Your problem is not thinking through things
> either. Not every Jew is an "industralist", not every Jew is
> rich, not every Jew is a member of any organized political group.
> Focus your attention on the activity you dislike, and those who
> actually take part in that activity. Otherwise you're just a bigot
> yourself.

In a way, you have the same problems like me. In My working days when
I
defended small business, I was told that I am only doing this because
my
brother has a business. When I listened to business people side I was
called a traitor.

When I talked about social responsibilities I was called a socialist.
When I talk about the Jews I must be a Nazi. When I talked about the
Americans and how the willingly starve people because their leaders
are
communist than I am called a communist.

What it comes down to; I am a little bit of everything, most of all I
am
pissed of how society is treating its people.

Werner Knoll
Render justice and righteousness, and deliver the one that is being
robbed out of the hand of the defrauder; and do not maltreat any alien
resident, fatherless boy or widow. Do them no violence.
Jeremiah 22-3

==30==

Subject:      Re: Mssrs Knoll & Goldhagen
From:         Werner Knoll 
Date:         1998/05/07
Message-ID:   <35510A6D.4AFA50C2@istar.ca>
Newsgroups:
can.politics,van.general,can.general,bc.general,ab.general
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> In article <355067AF.AC1767B8@istar.ca>, Werner Knoll
 wrote:
> 
> >You people?
> 
> Darn! I thought you were going to tell us who "you people" was...
> Shucks.
> 
> >It is obvious to me that you could not run a fruit stand of your
own. So
> >why don’t you go and tell me and others who is your sponsor, so
you can
> >answer yourself what YOU PEOPLE means!!
> 
> I have no sponsor, Mr. Knoll. I began doing this long before anyone
> but me gave a damn. Do you see banner advertising on Nizkor's pages,
> Mr. Knoll?
> 
> If you want me to accept that those who donate funds for my work are
> "sponsors," then there are rather a lot of them... I have a list of
> 500 or so, which hasn't been updated in two years. I haven't met
more
> than a handful of them - and lots of names on the list look a lot
like
> "Wong," of "Robinson," so I don't know what to deduce. Are these the
> "you people" you mean, or do you mean the Roman Catholic chritable
> foundation in Toronto that funded major html work last year? Are the
> kind Sisters "you people?"
> 
> >Is this the way, and again I am saying you people operate to
silence


Where am I denying the Holocaust BOY??

You know the saying Whose bread I eat his song I sing BOY? What would
you do without your sponsors BOY?
To make your day BOY I will post Collins speech again and again till
it
comes out of your ear BOY What filthy person are you anyway??
Here comes your wake up call again and let see how far you will go
with
your distortions next time. You stink, take a bath you need it BOY.


The following is the text of the speech made by the veteran journalist
Doug Collins after the forced cancellation of a free speech conference
in Oliver, British Columbia, slated for March 21, 1998, at Oliver's 
city hall. It is published here as a censorship-busting exercise in
free
speech. 

=-=-=-=-=

Doug Collins:

These are extraordinary times in Canada. Dangerous ones, too. The
attack
on freedom of speech is massive. It has been going on for many years,
beginning in 1971 when the federal hate laws were passed. I was
covering
parliament at the time and saw it happen at first hand. Since then
situation has grown progressively worse. It has now reached the stage
where under the B.C. Human Rights Code a person could be taken before
a
human rights tribunal for telling a Newfie joke. It just depends on
whether Ujjal Dosanjh and the provincial government want to go after
him; in other words, whether he is a sanctioned target - sanctioned by
the politically correct and pressure groups like Sol Littman's Simon
Wiesenthal Centre.

It's disappointing that the establishment media are suckers for
propaganda
put out by those groups. All that's needed for them to press the panic
button and produce scare headlines is for the usual trigger words to
be
used - neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic. The issues
are
rarely debated. So they resort to calling people names. Meanwhile,
real
reporting seems to be out of fashion, taking handouts is very much in
fashion. The stories in the Okanagan media have been good examples of
that, as was Thursday's scare story in the Globe & Mail. Call it the
spirit of the times. Forty years ago we saw another spirit of the
times.
It was called McCarthyism. Anyone who wanted medicare could be
demonized
and seen as a Communist. I lived through those times, too, but many of
today's media weren't around then. So let's forgive them, for they
know
not what they do. But it's time some of them grew up.

In the United States none of the anti-free speech laws that decorate
the
landscape in Canada would get to first base. They have a Constitution
that protects free expression. We don't. Our Charter of Rights and 
Freedoms is a leaky vessel, which is why teachers and others can be 
fired from their jobs for holding the wrong views. In this country, 
too, an author like David Irving can be arrested while making a dinner
speech about free speech, put into handcuffs, and deported on an 
immigration pretext - while many killers and crooks of all kinds are 
allowed to remain here and while Asian gangs roam Vancouver on
drive-by
shootings. That's something else the people of Oliver might think
about
when they sign petitions asking the Attorney General in effect to go 
after Mr. Klatt for running an Internet service. But once again, let's
not blame them. They are victims of a massive propaganda campaign. 
That's what I was getting at when I wrote that famous or infamous 
column on Hollywood Propaganda. 

My interest in freedom of speech began a long time ago. When Ernst
Zundel was prosecuted for "spreading false news" in 1985 I appeared 
for the defence. I had never heard of the guy but it was
incomprehensible
to me that a man could be prosecuted for spreading false news. As I
told
the court, Santa Claus spreads false news, the weatherman spreads
false
news,and any reporter who has ever reported what a politician has had 
to say is probably spreading false news. Today's media are
particularly 
good at spreading false news. The Globe & Mail story about this
meeting 
that appeared on Thursday was liberally sprinkled with false news, as 
Oliver has good reason to know. In the Zundel case, of course, the 
Supreme Court of Canada agreed with me in the end and the false news
law
was nixed.Littman can count himself lucky. 

But the anti-free speech experts were not discouraged. They invented
human rights commissions.The B.C. Human Rights Act, or Code, as it's 
called now,is a disgrace to the province and to the country. The 
Littmans think it's wonderful, of course, but they would, wouldn't 
they!.

I was charged under that Code. The Canadian Jewish Congress laid a
complaint against me after I'd written a column headed "Hollywood
Propaganda" in which I said that the six million holocaust figure was
nonsense, that the Jewish influence in Hollywood was predominant, and
that the move Schindler's List should have been called Swindler's
List.

I said that because the man's own wife denounced him as a swindler, 
and she should know. As for who runs Hollywood, only last Sunday a 
two-hour program was shown on network TV called "Hollywoodism," which
confirmed my view in spades. I also stated in the column that I was 
tired of hate literature in the form of films, and that Schindler's 
List had to be the 555th. movie on the same subject. Think about 
that, when the Littmans and the Canadian Jewish Congress fulminate 
about hate literature. How would you feel if you were a German born 
long after Hitler was dead and you were reminded every day that your
grandfather did the wrong thing? Ask yourselves how you would feel if
you were a young German, being told by Daniel Goldhagen, a Jewish 
professor in New York, that Germans have a pathological hatred of
Jews?
That's what he did in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners. Isn't 
that hate literature? But there's not much fuss about that. The book 
is freely available in Canada, while books to which the pressure
groups
object are not. They are stopped at the border.

Reverse the Goldhagen thing and consider what the reaction would be if
someone wrote a book claiming that all Jews are crooks. What it boils
down to of course is that one man's Hitler is another man's Hemingway.

It's now over half a century since the war ended but from what see on
TV
and you get in the media you might think it ended two weeks ago. 
As it happens, I know a lot more about Nazis than most of my critics
do.
I was a prisoner of war in Germany until I escaped. I saw Bergen
Belsen
concentration camp on the way up through Germany in 1945 after I had
rejoined the forces, and for some years after the war I was a
Political
Intelligence Officer working on the de-Nazification of Germany. In
short,I have seen a lot of real Nazis, not just the ersatz types of 
which Sol Littman and that Communist academic David Lethbridge of 
Salmon Arm are so oncerned about.

In Lethbridge's case, at least, he seems to be quite UNconcerned about
the many more millions who died under communism. I might also say that
even if I was wrong, and I wasn't, in a democracy we are supposed to
have
the right to be wrong. Or is that now also out of fashion, with a
Ministry
of Truth headed by Littman and Co.? If so, then Oliver would have to
be
the
Hate Capital of Canada and I would have to be an agent for
neo-Nazis,which
is what he called me on television. And speaking of television, it's
one thing to denounce people from a distance and quite another to face
them in debate. I debated free speech for an hour with Littman on CBC
Newsworld and in the viewer poll that was taken 73% voted for me and
for
free speech.

As for that rights tribunal I faced, even a carefully selected
adjudicator had to dismiss the case. No hate here, as the North Shore 
News headline put it. And why did she throw out the complaint? Not, in

my opinion, because she would not have liked to find me guilty, but 
because she knew that if the case had gone to court the complaint
would 
have been found to be unconstitutional. Why? Because the B.C. Human
Rights
Code is a Heresy Act, pure and simple. A Heresy Act, which is one
reason 
why I am here today, Mr. Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh. Here are the 
facts: Under that law, truth is no defence; fair comment is not a
defence,
as it is with libel and slander; publication in the public
interest is not a defence, innocent intent is not a defence, and even
work done for scientific purposes is not a defence. 

Let me repeat what the lawyer for the B.C. Press Council said: this is
a
law that attempts to stifle speech that is not criminal. That's where
we're at in B.C.

On top of all that the government itself can make its own complaints
to
its own Human Rights Commission even when no complaint has been
entered
by a third party. So they can get you going and coming even if no-one
else
wants to. Talk about Big Brother and George Orwell's 1984!
Fortunately,
we still have courts in this country that can strike down the acts of 
these would-be dictators. In 1938 the Alberta Press Act was struck
down,
just as the false news law was later. But the intent of the
politicians 
who pass such laws is the same as it is in the dictatorships. 

But while the courts cogitate, speech in Canada is not free at all. It
comes at a price, which is why I no longer sing the national anthem.
We
are not the True North Strong and Free. When we revert to being strong
and free I'll start singing again. In my case the defence of a free 
press has cost the North Shore News well over $200,000. Others, like 
Mr.Fromm,have been hounded from their jobs. But there is a bright side
to this. In the case of the North Shore News the public has subscribed

nearly $150,000 to its defence fund, which shows that you can't fool 
all the people all the time.

It's not over, though. A man describing himself in his complaint as "a
Jewish person" - Harry Abrams, the founder of B'Nai Brith in Victoria
-
has launched another action against me with those rights experts over
there who are led by that leather-clad lesbian, Mary Woo Sims, the
chief
commissioner. He complains about six columns, including the Hollywood
propaganda column that was dismissed in the first tribunal. Double
jeopardy? What's that? Let's have a rematch, they say. 

Instead of waiting for handouts from Littman and Lethbridge about
white
supremacists and other bogeymen, the media should take the trouble to
examine what's going on. Lethbridge and other free speech artists
screamed that this meeting should be stopped. So it was. Only meetings

of which he approved would be allowed. He's a fascist of the Left. Yet

the media quote him as if he were an oracle. 

If they did take a look at things, the media would find a firm link
between the politically correct of the militant left and government,
who
are often one and the same, as in B.C. They would find that Lethbridge
was a key speaker at, and organizer of, the pro-violence Anti-Racist 
Action Trotskyite mob in Toronto that has been barred from school 
grounds.They would find that Alan Dutton the big anti-racist in B.C. 
was instrumental in getting grants for the ARA from Toronto Metro 
Council. He himself has received hundreds of thousand of dollars in 
grants from government, which finances the anti-freedom movement. . 
They would also find that hotels have been bullied - terrorized might
be a more appropriate term - into not renting premises to groups of 
whom the Lethbridges and the Duttons disapprove.That happened in 
Surrey a couple of years ago when the late Pat Burns of radio fame 
was to have been the keynote speaker and I was to have spoken on Bill 
33, which has become B.C.'s Heresy Act. They would find that no less 
a person than the Attorney General of this province approved of what 
they were doing. They would find that the Duttons and Letbridges
act as advisers to the Attonery General. They would find that the
Alberta Human Rights Commission told a hotel in Edmonton not to give
space to a group that planned to discuss the Canadian Constitution.
They would also find that attempts have been made by the same people
to deny groups space in public libraries. The same Harry Abrams I 
mentioned a minute ago is a leader in that endeavor. He has asked the 
National Library Association to do that, using the trigger word "hate 
groups". But so far the libraries have refused to be panicked. And if
the media are too lazy to seek all that out by themselves, I can help 
them. Yes, that's the kind of stuff you should be doing, Oliver
Chronicle,
Penticton Herald, Globe and Mail, Vancouver Sun, CBC and all the rest
of
you. You don't do it, but I can tell you again this: I'm old enough to

have seen all this happen before.

What's going on is really no different in spirit from what the
Brownshirts got up to in Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, it was enough 
to shout Jew, Communist or Socialist. Today in Canada it's enough to 
shout white supremacist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semite. The ideologies are
different but the spirit is the same. A word or two about the
Internet.
The Internet is seen by the Littmans as a threat. How dreadful that 
people can actually send out messages to the world without their
having 
to go through the filter of a press dominated by the poltivally
correct.
So - kill the Internet, and if the Internet can’t be killed then
ruin 
anyone, like Mr. Klatt, who doesn't take orders and won't act as a
censor.
I should point out here that I have seen nothing of what the Littmans
and
Co are bitching about, nor have most of the media who echo what
Littman 
says. I had never even heard of the Charlemagne Hammerheads before
this 
affair blew up and I have never had lunch with a skinhead, ans what
they
are supposed to be saying is certainly not my cup of tea.But I'll tell
you
something. I can be my own censor, thanks very much. I don't need
Littman's 
help.The same option is open to all Internet users. But Littman can't
trust
the public. He wants to treat people like children, while yellio kill
the Internet, or at least the controversial
voices on it that Littman doesn't like. And of course there are nasty
voices on it, although I've never bothered to tune in to them. But
don't
be fooled by the idea that Littman's censorship would end witon in
1945, he said,
"Trust the people." I follow that precept and it's my hope that in 
spite of the demonization of dissidents that ‘s going on now, 
Canadians will hold steady. We've been through crazy times before
and survived, and I'm here today in the expectation that we'll survive
this one. 

Meanwhile, Mayor Larson should put on her thinking cap instead of
pandering to the Littmans and giving way to bullies. Then there's
councillor Terry Shafer. He has said that the matter of this meeting
is
a tough issue, particularly when the veterans are celebrating the 
creation of Canadian Legion here. They fought, he said so as to allow 
us the privilege of expressing our opinions, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL 
THOSE OPINIONS MAY BE.

What do you know about those opinions, councillor? Have you heard or
read any of them or are you taking the time from Littman and
Lethbridge?
And what about your local Liberal MLA, Bill Barisoff? Has he had
anything
critical to say about the NDP's Heresy Law? If he has I must have been
snoozing. But he's reported as telling Litttman he'd be happy to work
with him to ensure that hate literature that violates the Criminal
Code
does not appear anywhere in Canada. Does he take Littman's word for
what
hate literature is? If you ask me, he's a bit like the Red Queen in
Alice
in Wonderland who said, sentence first, trial later. 

I'll leave you with a couple of other thoughts. A columnist said in
print last year that I give free speech a bad name. I replied by
pointing
out that free speech has always had a bad name. Free speech had a bad
name
when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittingen
cathedral. It had a bad name when John Tyndale was burned at the stake
for translating the Bible into English. It had a bad name when John
Milton
wrote that truth and falsehood should grapple freely. It had a bad
name
when the Ayatolla in Iran proclaimed a death sentence on Salman
Rushdie,
and when the communists were up before the un-American Activities
Committee. It had a bad name two thousand years ago, when a man called
Jesus was nailed to the cross. One might almost say that free speech
has
NEVER had a GOOD name, and thanks to the Littmans and the Lethbridges
and others like them free speech certainly has a bad name today. As I
mentioned earlier, if you are for free speech you are a neo-Nazi, a
crypto-Nazi, a white supremacist, or an anti-Semite. 

This sort of thing is not confined to Canada. It exists right across
the
Western world. In Australia, Terry Lane, a well-known print and radio
commentator got into trouble with the local Littmans and wrote a
letter
to the Australian Jewish News in 1992 in which he stated the
following:

"The Zionist lobby in this country is malicious, implacable,
mendacious
and dangerous. What's more, once the expression anti-Semitism hits the
air, or, heaven forfend, the sacred six million is uttered...we are
thrown to the jackals. I surrender. To the Zionists I say, you win. 
To the Palestinians, forgive my cowardice." 

In 1938, the Supreme Court of Canada had this to say when it struck
down
the Alberta Press Act:

"Freedom of discussion is essential to enlighten public opinion in a
democratic state. It cannot be curtailed without affecting the right
of
people to be informed, independent of government, concerning matters
of
public interest. There must be untrammelled publication of news and
opinion." UNTRAMMELLED! It stated further that if the Social Credit
law
were allowed to stand, the Socred doctrine would become a kind of
religious dogma that the people would buck at their peril. 

If the Littmans and other critics have their way, their dogmas would
become a kind of religion, too, that we would buck at our peril, and
we
are already are buckinjg at our peril. So I say to hell with them, and
you can quote me. How about it, Mayor Larson and others who are
running
for cover? How about it, Bill Barisoff? I can tell you where you
should
stand. You should be standing right here with the rest of us, not
passing
by on the other side of the street. I will conclude by saying that I
am 
77 years of age, that I defended freedom in the 1940s when Hitler was
on
the loose, in the 1950s when McCarthy was on the loose, in the 1970s
when
the federal hate laws were passed, in the 1990s when those idiots in 
Victoria passed their misnamed Human Rights Act, and that I shall go
on 
defending freedom until the day I die.

Thank you.

[End of the text of Doug Collins's March 21 speech]

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