From Harry.Katz@mci.com Wed May  6 17:42:25 EDT 1998
Article: 173406 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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debunks@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:

	Others simply had an overwhelming hatred for their persecutors.

Victims hating their persecutors--imagine that!  Is that a crime for
all victims, or only if Jewish victims indulge?

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May  8 19:07:31 EDT 1998
Article: 173621 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Tom Moran wrote:

	The main theme of Mr.Keren's reply here is he says
	Moran wasn't there at the camps. But then again, neither
	was Mr.Keren.

Danny Keren responded:

	Yes Tommy. But Prof. Pfannenstiel was. And so were the others.
	Now kindly stop this infantile attempt at diversion.

Which brings only out another infantile attempt at diversion 
>from  Mr. Moran:

	Seems Mr.Keren is saying anyone who says they were there and
	said something that it was infallibly true.

That is not what Mr. Keren is saying at all, as should be obvious to
anyone with minimal reading skills.

Mr. Keren is saying that Mr. Moran has not provided the slightest
shred of evidence that Prof. Pfannenstiel's testimony is not true.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May  8 19:07:32 EDT 1998
Article: 173624 of alt.revisionism
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Richard G. Philllips writes:

	...how could the unselected  have known that the selected were 
	to be executed in a gas chamber.

Those not selected for immediate execution were detailed to remove the
bodies from the gas chambers and transport them to the crematoria.
This fact is so basic to Holocaust history that someone who does not
know it has no business discussing the Holocaust, much less doubting it.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May  8 19:07:32 EDT 1998
Article: 173625 of alt.revisionism
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tom moran wrote:

	Posting URLs instead of the contents is the sleezy norm of
	Mr.VanAlstine.

Has Mr. Moran finally figured out what a URL is?  I remember when he
maintained that there was no such thing and specified web sites
by naming the buttons he clicked?

Now he uses an argument so bereft of merit that no internet novice would
touch it!  Posting URL's is a "sleazy" practice only to true ignorami
like Mr. Moran, who do not know what to do with them.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May  8 19:07:33 EDT 1998
Article: 173635 of alt.revisionism
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Tom Moran wrote:

	The main theme of Mr.Keren's reply here is he says
	Moran wasn't there at the camps. But then again, neither
	was Mr.Keren.

Danny Keren responded:

	Yes Tommy. But Prof. Pfannenstiel was. And so were the others.
	Now kindly stop this infantile attempt at diversion.

Mr. Moran replied:

	Seems Mr.Keren is saying anyone who says they were there and
	said something that it was infallibly true.

I wrote:

	That is not what Mr. Keren is saying at all, as should be 
	obvious to anyone with minimal reading skills.

	Mr. Keren is saying that Mr. Moran has not provided the 
	slightest shred of evidence that Prof. Pfannenstiel's testimony 
	is not true.

In his latest "effort" Mr. Moran characterizes my remarks above as,
"Mr.Katz saying Mr.Keren didn't say what he said:..."  Once again,
Mr. Moran demonstrates he cannot read with compehension.  What I
actually said was that Mr. Moran did not understand what Mr. Keren said.

Mr. Moran's repsonse to my observation:

	Okay, now we can wait for Mr.Katz to provide the "slightest
	shred of evidence" that Pfannenstiel's testimony is true?

Mr. Moran resorts to the deniers' oldest fallacy!  It is not up to me,
Dr. Keren, or anyone else to prove anything to Mr. Moran's satisfaction.
Since he dissents from the popular view it is up to him to provide
the supporting evidence.  Whenever deniers like Mr. Moran demand
evidence it is a sure sign that they have no factual or logical data
of their own.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 12 17:01:06 EDT 1998
Article: 174976 of alt.revisionism
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When challenged, Alex Vange was unable to come up with exact
scientific criteria for distinguishing "Aryans" from non-"Aryans"
so he tries to evade the question:

	 The Jews managed to have their own country despite this 
	arguement.

Jews are continually arguing over the question of who is a Jew.
Nevertheless, Israel air-lifted thousands of Felashan Jews from
Ethiopia, and these Jews are as Black as any African.

In other words, unlike Mr. Vange, Israelis do not consider Jews to be a 
race, and that makes all the difference.

But it still does not change the fact that Mr. Vange blusters and whines
because he cannot define any exact scientific criteria for 
distinguishing "Aryans" from non-"Aryans".

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 12 17:01:07 EDT 1998
Article: 174979 of alt.revisionism
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Alex Vange writes:

	But read the post  above, is speech here free, or very 
	expensive?

Apparently, Mr. Vange cannot grasp the irony of this single sentence.
If we can "read the post" doesn't that prove that "speech here is
free"?  Far from free, internet posting is government subsidized!
So, the federal government is paying for the privilege of posting that
Mr. Vange enjoys, and employs to deny that he has any free speech
at all!

Not very convincing.  Nor does it reflect well on any of the many
other opinions that Mr. Vange ventures.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 12 17:01:07 EDT 1998
Article: 174987 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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I am writing to protest the use of the word "Zeyde" as some kind of
gentle pejorative for Mr. Tom Moran.  I have fond feelings for my
own zeyde and I do not want them associated with the likes of
Mr. Moran.

I see nothing wrong with the English equivalents: grandpa, grampus,
granny, old man, or senile old fart, but please let's not diminish
our rich Yiddish heritage by association with such billious bigots.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 12 17:01:07 EDT 1998
Article: 174991 of alt.revisionism
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CARLOS W. PORTER expectorates:

	I deeply regret all the pain and suffering which I may 
	inadverten have inflicted upon this ancient race of 
	coprophiliacs, urolagniacs, menstruophobes, incest addicts, 
	child rapists, child murderers, slavers, pimps, pornographers, 
	con artists, genocide artists, bloodsuckers, extortioners, and 
	purveryors of filth generally, by the crude, offensive,
	and vulgar term of abuse -- JEW -- rather than by the proper 
	term of respect, which is -- KIKE.

I am truly sorry that Mr. Porter's family is so dysfunctional that he
cannot bear to face it, and is forced to sublimate his self-hatred
and project it onto decent, innocent Jews.  Perhaps if his father
was not a child rapist or his mother was not a whore, Mr. Porter
would be a normal, well-adjusted adult, instead of the pathetic little
whiner he has turned out to be.

	I trust that the present apology will be accepted in the spirit 
	in which it is intended.

I suspect Mr. Porter will not be able to extricate his head from his
asshole without serious medical intervention.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu May 21 18:13:51 EDT 1998
Article: 176976 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Subject: Re: Goebbels: "About 60 Percent of Them Will Have to be Liquidated"
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emills wrote:

	The phraseology used by Goebbels in his diary entry of 27 March 
	1942 is interesting.  One would have expected that,...

This a serious and recurring flaw in denier arguments.  It always
begins with a declaration of what to "expect" from any particular
source, and then finds fault with the source for not living up to these
"expectations!"

	...if physical extermination of the Jews of all Europe were the 
	goal, an arch-anti-Semite such as he was would have expressed 
	outrage that as many as 40 per cent of the Jews of the
	General Government were to be preserved for forced labour.  

Forced labor was merely a slower way to exterminate Jews as the labor 
was systematically overworked and starved to death.  Goebbels was
merely peeved that he could not profit from the deaths of the other
60% of victims, as he did from the death of the laborers.

	After all, he many times in his diary expressed outrage that 
	Jews were still to be seen in Berlin.

Which bears no relation to Jews "still to be seen" in camps, where their
mere presence could not disturb the delicate digestion of the 
cosmopolitan Nazis.


	...In relation to those that cannot be used for forced labour, 
	he says "about 60 per cent .... will have to be liquidated".  
	He does not say that they "should be" liquidated or "can be" 
	liquidated, or "what a shame that only 60 per cent are going to 
	be liquidated".

Once again, Goebbels does not meet the unique expectations of Mr. Mills,
and this he turns into specious speculation:

	He seems to be implying that some external circumstance is 
	compelling the liquidation, perhaps an inability to feed more 
	than 40 per cent, and seems to regret that the number to be
	liquidated is so high, meaning that fewer are left for forced 
	labour.

"Perhaps..." is nothing but pure speculation and wishful thinking!
If these issues were on his mind, why did he not note them down in his
diary, instead of leaving the vague hints that Mr. Mills seems intent
on reading into his choice of words?  It seems odd to Mr. Mills that
Goebbels words things one way instead of another, but the omission
of an entire line of reasoning that Mr. Mills believes ought to have
been on Goebbel's mind does not bother him in the slightest!


	...In this case, the Germans reckoned on a casualty rate double
	the normal, largely because they had a made a decision to 
	actively kill off the less useful Jews rather than waiting for 
	their inevitable but gradual starvation as a result of the food 
	shortage...

Now the "perhaps" has become a fact!  Mr. Mills proposed above that
perhaps starvation was on Goebbels' mind, and here he states it as an
absolute and indisputable fact.  The Nazis decided to allow a high
casualty rate during relocation because it would save them the cost
of a bullet or gas cannister at the other end.

Furthermore, even if the Nazis were trying to be "humane" it is a
shocking crime to kill off people, even when they are in danger of
starvation, before every last available means of avoiding death has
been exhausted.  The analogy here is to a "Humane Society" where the
Nazis are veterinarians and their Jewish victims are treated like
homeless pets, an analogy that does not seem to trouble Mr. Mills.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu May 21 18:13:52 EDT 1998
Article: 176980 of alt.revisionism
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Indeed, there was a plan to exact revenge for the Holocaust from the
German people immediately after the end of the war, but it was Jewish
Zionists who foiled the plot.

Interesting that Zundelsite does not believe the mountains of evidence
supporting the facts of the Holocaust (including official Nazi
documents) but has no problem believing and embellishing this small,
barely documented footnote to history.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu May 21 18:13:52 EDT 1998
Article: 176981 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Subject: Re: Dachau/Gas chambers/Nuremberg
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Danny Keren presented:

	Two pages of letter from Dr. Rascher to Reichsfuehrer Himmler,
	suggesting to use the Dachau gassing facilities to test "combat
	gases" on inmates...
 
tom moran whines:

	In accordance with rules of evidence in U.S. courts we can 
	rightfully ask:

	Where was this letter found? Under what circumstances was it
	found. When was it found? Who found it? And who certifies it?

In accordance with rules of research in colleges and universities
throughout the world "we can rightfully" expect Mr. Moran to do his
own research and report the results if he can find any evidence
whatsoever to challenge the authenticity of this letter or its contents.

	Anyone can just present a document.

But only Mr. Moran expects to be taken seriously without any document
whatsoever to present!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 26 20:50:30 EDT 1998
Article: 178326 of alt.revisionism
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While everyone is falling all over themselves to condemn the nitwit
who published Mr. Sabatini's home address, I believe the whole
incident needs a little of Mr. Sabatini's own brand of sensitivity.

Mr. Sabatini seems to be one of those hyper-sensitive neurotics who
sees "Nazi hunters" crawling out from underneath his bed at night.
Posting his address was nothing more than the childish prank of
a pimple-faced adolescent.  Only a total paranoid schizophrenic like
Mr. Sabatini could possibly mistake it for a mortal threat!  To
paraphrase another "sensitive" denier, Mr. Sabatini had better watch
his sister because she is in greater danger of being attacked by
rapists than he is by so-called "Nazi hunters!"

To sum up, it is amazing how a frightened Mr. Sabatini scurries into
his hole when faced with a "threat" not one-hundreth as serious as
the anti-Semitic provocations that he routinely discounted as
beneath serious consideration.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 26 20:50:30 EDT 1998
Article: 178335 of alt.revisionism
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Alex Vange writes:

	Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that the Jews tell big lies.

Which is itself a big lie.  Some Jews do lie, but the overwhelming
majority consider lying to be a sin.

	The Jewish media took his words out of context and claimed that 	Hitler
was in favor of big lies.

No need to take his words out of context at all, because the words
themselves are big lies, and prove that Hitler liked to use big lies.

	This was in itself a big lie and proof that Hitler was right.

This was "in itself" an observation.  Mr. Vange does not understand
the scientific principle of observation.  He reads Hitler's "Mein Kampf"
like it was the Bible, looking for divine revelation, and ends up
making assinine assertions.

	Here is what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf and in context:

Only Nazis like Mr. Vange think that the context of Hitler's
big lies will somehow make them turn into the truth.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 26 20:50:31 EDT 1998
Article: 178340 of alt.revisionism
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Debunks writes:

	Now, explain the following which is unambiguous:

"Unambiguous?"  Let's see...

	The official unabridged Soncino Edition of the Talmud
	published in 1935 was "Translated into English with Notes,
	Glossary and Indices" by such eminent Talmudic scholars as 
	Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein, Rabbi Dr. Samuel Daiches, 
	Rabbi Dr. Israel W. Slotki, M.A., Litt.D., 
	The Reverend Dr. A. Cohen, M.A.', Ph.D., Maurice Simon, M.A., 
	and the Very Reverend The Chief Rabbi Dr. J.H. Hertz wrote the 
	"Foreword" for the Soncino Edition of the Talmud.  The Very 
	Reverend Rabbi Hertz was at the time the Chief Rabbi of England.

The first thing that these "eminent Talmudic scholars" would point out
to Mr. Debunks is that the Talmud is anything but "unambiguous!"

	The following are but a few of the many similar quotations
	with footnotes from the Soncino Edition of the Talmud,...

Mr. Debunks would like people to believe that he himself has actually
cracked open this volume of the Talmud, whereas he is actually only
repeating the same old tired libels that he and his cohorts found in
any one of many anti-Semitic screeds.  Furthermore, there are very few
"similar quotations" in the Talmud, which Mr. Debunks would know
if his information were actually based on a study of the Talmud.

	...the "sort of book" from which Jesus allegedly "drew the 
	teachings which enabled him to revolutionize the world" on 
	"moral and religious" subjects:

The Talmud is full of "moral and religious" teachings, some of which
are attributed to Jesus in the Christian Bible, but Mr. Debunks is
not interested in presenting a fair and honest appraisal of the Talmud.

Mr. Debunks then quotes the "unambiguous" passage from the Talmud:

	SANHEDRIN, 55b-55a:  "What is meant by this? - Rab said:
	Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as
	pederasty with a child above that.  Samuel said:  Pederasty with
	a child below three years is not treated as with a child above 
	that (2) What is the basis of their dispute?...

I have cut the citation short.  I trust those who are following this
thread have already seen the entire passage.

Next, Mr. Debunks posts the footnotes to the passage above:

	(1)  The reference is to the passive subject of sodomy.  As 
	stated in supra 54a, guilt is incurred by the active participant
	even if the former be a minor; i.e., less than thirteen years 
	old.  Now, however, it is stated that within this age a 
	distinction is drawn.
	(2)  Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed
	sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred.  Samuel
	makes three the minimum.

This last statement, on the surface, looks extremely immoral: "...but 
if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is 
incurred."

But Mr. Debunks does not provide the entire context for this debate,
which is understandable since he is not a Talmudic scholar.  The debate
is about whether or not the sodomist is liable for death or lashes.
The Bible states that death is the penalty for a man who sleeps with
a man "as with a woman."  The rabbis declared that passage to mean
that the passive participant must be sexually mature, since a woman
is sexually mature.  If the passive participant is not sexually mature
then the sodomist is only whipped.  If the passive participant is
sexually mature, both are put to death.  The rabbis then discuss at
what age a boy becomes sexually mature, age three or age nine.

So, this passage is only odious to those who do not understand the
Talmud, and Mr. Debunks must be counted among these ignorami by his
own statement that a passage from the Talmud could be "unambiguous!"

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Tue May 26 20:50:33 EDT 1998
Article: 178341 of alt.revisionism
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tom moran wrote:

	Physics is the enemy of the Holocaust lie.

Actually physics is the enemy of Mr. Moran, along with mathematics,
computing, history, logic, and the English language.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May 29 11:56:30 EDT 1998
Article: 178724 of alt.revisionism
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Mr. Debunks writes:

	Listen, Mr. Katz, I do not prefer to get into this Talmud 
	business,...

Then why did he post an excerpt from the Talmud?  Surely, I did not
start this discussion.

	...but will inform you that I have pages and pages of 
	microfilmed copies of thi compendium.

I have the entire Talmud with which to refute Mr. Debunks' 
pseudo-scholarship.

	It is NOT my desire nor my intention to debate these points
	with you or anyone else.

A clear admission that he cannot defend his position!

	If you insist on pushing it, I will have no other choice
	but to respond in kind.

I sincerely doubt that Mr. Debunks is capable of responding "in kind!"
I respond with facts and evidence, whereas he responds with bluster
like this.

	Let it DROP...

When Mr. Debunks admits his error.

	...and admonish and rebuke your colleague Yale...

Mr. Eideken is no colleague of mine.  I have never even met him.

	...for his reprehensible behaviour in this group.

Mr. Eideken does not take any direction from me.  Maybe Mr. Debunks
ought to go crying to his mommy.

	It can all end here and now-if everyone in the group WANTS it 
	to end.

It can only end when Mr. Debunks ends his campaign of smear and slander.

	I expect an apology from Yale.

It's nice to expect.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May 29 11:56:30 EDT 1998
Article: 178727 of alt.revisionism
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Mr. Debunks writes:

	However, out of respect for decent Jews, I will not post any
	further talmud quotations.

And to avoid further exposure of his mendacity.  There is nothing in
the Talmud for decent Jews to be ashamed of.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May 29 11:56:30 EDT 1998
Article: 178759 of alt.revisionism
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David Gehrig wrote:

	You really goofed this time. Harry Katz showed how Freedman 
	twisted the Talmudic passage he quoted, and I showed that there 
	isn't a snowball's chance in Oahu that you're coming up with 
	this stuff on your own.

	Sorry, Blanche. Time for you to find another cover story.

Debunks responds with all of the desparation and frustration of a child
caught with his hand in the cookie jar:

	Let me tell you something sweetheart--I did not goof, and I am
	completely uninterested whether the paragraphs above or below 
	the Talmudic text was written by Freedman or Moshe Dayan.

Mr. Debunks arrived rather suddenly at this disinterest.  Just yesterday
he was claiming that he found the passage in the Talmud itself.  Now
that he has been exposed as a liar, he suddenly does not care!

	I am only concerned with that portion which was taken directly 
	from the talmud.

Which, as I have already demonstrated, Mr. Debunks totally 
misinterpreted.  Note that his concern does not mean that he has
anything more to say about the passage and its interpretation!

	you concern yourself with freedman or whoever else it may have 
	been who posted the other text.  Your fascination with that 
	person has no bearing on what was directly quoted from the
	rabbies...oops, rabbis.  That WASN'T on purpose.

Neither does this response have anything to do with "what was directly 
quoted!"  But the fascination with Freedman is entirely Mr. Debunks'.
After all, he was the one who posted Freedman's words as his own. 

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May 29 11:56:31 EDT 1998
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Debunks demanded:

	Have you checked the English version of the Talmud yet?  
	Soncino? 

Richard Schultz responded:

	I have checked both the Soncino and the original, and you took 
	that  passage out of context in an obvious effort to distort its
	meaning.

In his own defense, Mr. Debunks shoves his foot firmly into his own
mouth:         

	Wrong again, Mr. Schultz.  I have no nefarious motives here.
	I quoted what was available to me at the time,.  If you have 
	additional text to offer, by all means do so.

So, Mr. Debunks went straight to the source, the Soncino English
translation of the Talmud, but the paragaph just before the one he cited
somehow was not "available at the time!"

	I am a liberal man.  Leben und Leben lassen...that's my motto.

Too bad his motto has nothing in it about truth or fair play.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri May 29 11:56:31 EDT 1998
Article: 178776 of alt.revisionism
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dieselzykl@aol.com (Dieselzykl) writes:

	I think Hitler was quite prophetic.

What Mr. Dieselzykl "thinks" and a dollar will buy him a cup of coffee
at the local coffee shop.

	Is there any bigger lie than the Holocaust story?

Indeed there is and Mr. Dieselzykl just told it!

	I don't think there is.

Mr. Dieselzykl should have quit at "I don't think" and he would have
been correct for a change.

	Are the Jews repeating the same  big lie again and again in 
	order to get people to believe?

No, but Mr. Dieselzykl does, and this very post of his is part of it.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Mon Jun  1 10:45:51 EDT 1998
Article: 179111 of alt.revisionism
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DeBunk writes:

	We have heard various Nizkooks whine and fulminate regarding the
	Talmud posts and how they cannot be taken at face value because 
	they come from secondary sources,...

That is not true at all!  The Talmud cannot be taken at face value
because the text is so complex and full of premises that are not
explicitly stated, but implied by the text.  The question was whether
or not Mr. DeBunk is qualified to interpret the Talmud, which he
claimed, but proved false.

	...in this case, the English language edition provided by 
	English rabbis in the Soncino edition.

Again, Mr. DeBunk lies through his teeth.  The issue was not about the
adequacy of the Soncino English translation.  Rather, it was about
whether or not Mr. DeBunk had garnered his data from the Soncino edition
or from some anti-Semitic propaganda pamphlet.  Mr. DeBunk insisted he 
had the Soncino edition, yet he could not supply the context for his 
citation!  Moreover, his citation included editorial notes that are not 
in the Soncino edition and were never made by the Soncino editors.

The bottom line is that Mr. DeBunk lies about his sources.

	Yet, they seem to have no such qualms when it comes to
	translating German expressions from the Second World War into
	English.

We have many qualms when it comes to trusting Mr. Debunk's translations
of German words into English, and also to any sources he may cite in
support of his argument, because the Talmud incident has exposed him
and destroyed his credibility entirely.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Mon Jun  1 10:45:52 EDT 1998
Article: 179273 of alt.revisionism
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nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

	Mr. Sabatini seemed to be winning all of the arguments in this
	newsgroup;

The idea is not to win the arguments, but to arrive at the truth.

--
Harry Katz

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