The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/h/horogan.ray/1997/hourigan.0797


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:05 EDT 1997
Article: 78110 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Play dodge the issue! was [Re: The Irish Genocide: Why Not Reparations?]
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:33:45 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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nospam@here.com wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Jul 1997 17:44:09 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
>wrote:
>
>
>>I say "us" because I live in the south.  I've spoken with many people
>>over the years, from both the left and right, and all agree a United
>>Ireland is a good idea.  Now you could say that these people were all
>>politically active, and that average "sean" doesn't care, but I don't
>>think you'd be right.
>
>I was involved in politics in the south for six years before
>emigrating, and apart from some folk in the border areas, I found
>little support for the idea.

But you don't support the idea yourself, perhaps that has something to
do with the attitudes of people you talked to about it.  The people
I spoke to were either politically active, or retired from that game,
and some were from the extreme left and others from the extreme right,
yes, there was rightists in Ireland long before Fingal.

>>There is a possibility of civil war, BUT I think that generally speaking
>>people want a United FREE Ireland, not a United Marxist-state Ireland.
>
>Well, the latter is what Sinn Fein want, ruled by them, and they won't
>stop until they achieve it.

But think it through, support for the IRA is based on the desire of the
nation to be United, not for the nation to become a Marxist state. If
the IRA, after the UI is achieved attempts to impost a Marxist state,
they would quickly find themselves with no support at all, people
won't stand for it.

>>While people support the IRA at the moment, they would almost certainly
>>turn against them if they tried to impost their Stalinist ideals on us.
>
>People don't support the IRA.  A small minority of people support the
>IRA.

Ok, I meant people that support the IRA, not that everyone supports them,
I should have made that clearer.

>>Freedom and a United Ireland are ideals, but are not exclusive to any
>>particular political thinking.  Wanting a UI is not the same as wanting
>>SF as the Irish Government.
>
>'Freedom' is and always was a catchphrase of leftist movements.  In
>reality it usually means exactly the opposite

Agreed.

>>>Nonsense.  The dislike of 'northerners' is deep seated and widespread
>>>and it won't go away that easily.
>>
>>That is a stereotype you describe.
>
>That is a stereotype I found to be very real, particularly in the
>cities, where the majority of the population of the ROI live.

If you're talking abour Dublin, then it might explain it, since people
in Dublin talk about people living ouside as "bogmen" and such nonsense.
 
>>Good because it's a fact, and a sad one, I get no pleasure from seeing
>>the English culture destroyed anymore than I'd get from seeing the Irish
>>one destroyed. 
>
>However, the dissolution of cultural identities is something that
>appears to be part and parcel of this 'global village' thing.

...that is imposed upon us, whether we want it or not. :-(

>>Immigrants should have to assimilate into the host nation, adopt it's
>>laws and its standards, they should NOT start ordering that the host
>>country change its laws or standards, morals or anything else to
>>accomodate them, they should be reminded that it is they who are
>>entering a country, and it is they that must adapt to its rules,
>>and culture.
>
>Again, I agree with you there.   Denmark has a nice little law which
>financially penalises immigrants who don't make an effort to learn
>danish within a given period after arriving.

That is good news! I commend the Danish!  Britain and Ireland should
follow suit!

>>When I was in the "movement", I was in contact with a few "racists"
>>from Britain, and they told a different story, ok, so they are not
>>exactly the best source to ask, but their views should be noted. 
>
>Hell, I don't know which movement you are talking about, so I'll pass
>on that one.  The British out-and-out racist is a rare breed.

BNP.  Did you notice that the BNP and C18 are busy attacking each other,
instead of highlighting the demise of British culture... a lot like the
"movement" I left infact.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:07 EDT 1997
Article: 78134 of soc.culture.irish
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: No Enemies?
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:52 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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No Enemies?

You have no enemies, you say?
Alas my friend, the boast if poor
He who has mingled in the fray of duty,
that the brave endure, must have made foes!

If you have none
Small is the work that you have done
You've hit to traitor on the hip,
You've dashed no cup from perjured lip
You've never turned a wrong to right,
You've been a coward in the fight.
		-Charles McKay.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:07 EDT 1997
Article: 78135 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: "My Gaeltacht Experience" [was: A National Disgrace]
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:44 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <33d1ebb1.7787322@news.iol.ie>
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nospam@here.com wrote:

>On 19 Jul 1997 22:50:11 GMT, ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair
>McEwan) wrote:
>
>>nospam@here.com wrote:
>>: Probably, and the fucking gaelgors (sp?) will be one's who will loose
>>: out, as their language will continue to die out.  You won't find that
>>: behaviour in any other language school, but then again, most other
>>: languages are living languages.
>>
>>
>>     Any language that people still speak is living.  Irish too.

Agreed 100%

>But given the arrogance of the Gaeltacht schools, how much longer is
>it going to be living?  As far as I can see, it's drawing it's last
>few fighting breaths.
>

Certainly the tale of Michelle Hartnett isn't the first or last case we'll
hear about, wouldn't you think the Irish Government would impose some
new rules for the running of these schools.  How about rewards for speaking
Irish all day, not punishment for speaking even one word of English to
start with.

>From  what Michelle said, that collage is more like a work camp then a school
of learning - while this attitude amongst teachers persists, then our language
will fade even more.  Something MUST me done!  Suggestions?

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:08 EDT 1997
Article: 78136 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:53 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 29
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rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:

>I've been reading many different viewpoints on this group, and I got to thinking
>wouldn't it be good if we had some sort of way of knowing what the majority view
>on some issues on this group actually was?
>
Snip

So far only a few people have voted, and I've acknowledged them, so come on,
visit the site and send in your vote.

Those who have already contributed - thanks!  I hope you become regulars.

The URL is http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652/opinionpoll.html

The question concerns the future status of Ulster, if you have an opinion,
send in your vote.

Regards,

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:09 EDT 1997
Article: 78154 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:23:45 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie>
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"Keith Mills"  wrote:

Snip

>> Like Merlin, to some your ideas are a dream, to others a nightmare.
>> 
>Bit like a "united Ireland", then.

No a UNITED IRELAND! And it's no dream, it's just a matter of time.

Snip

>> Look, the British empire days are long gone.  Soon the Falklands,
>Gibralter, and
>> Ulster will be set free, then Wales and Scotland will gain independance,
>and
>> little England will be left to it's dreams of past atorcities committed
>against
>> humanity.
>> 
>> Snip
>> 
>I'm not even replying to this, as it's so laughable.

And so true, and indefensible.

Snip

>> >If The British Army walked out tomorrow, the biggest losers would be the
>> >Nationalists. LEARN YOUR HISTORY.
>> 
>> How would the biggest losers be the nationalists then?
>
>Scenario:
>The British government decides to withdraw it's soldiers. Civil war begins.
>The population is 60% Unionist, 40% Nationalist. You figure. (Please read
>why the British Army was brought into N.I. in the first place.).

Do you suppose for a moment that the people in the Republic would stand and
watch this atrocity happen?  I'm not talking the Army, just the people
of Ireland.  Would you suppose that the British Army would attack them
as well?  I think not!  And if push came to shove, America has 44 MILLION
people of Irish extraction, so Ireland will not be an easy push over.

Snip

>> Well, Keith, what gives the lie to your views is that they (Protestants)
>living
>> in Eire haven't been complaining, Unlike Britain, people can still speak
>their
>> mind, and I'm sure that if they felt that they were getting a bad deal,
>they
>> would be the first to complain, but no, not a word...  Makes you wonder.
>> 
>There are none so deaf as those who do not hear. Have you not been reading
>the Irish Times articles regarding the (state-supported) Ne Timere laws of
>the R.C. Church. There WERE several complaints from members of the minority
>churches down through the year, but as you have your Republican ear-plugs
>installed, you've obviously missed them.

I still say they had/have a good life here.  

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:10 EDT 1997
Article: 78164 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:49 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <33d1ecb3.8045207@news.iol.ie>
References:  <5pt5rp$hjn@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33c22f8a.17547937@news.axion.bt.co.uk> <5pvdl7$q5s@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <521bd5ab47@fano.demon.co.uk> <33d2da7e.54983473@news.wwa.com>
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re@d.my.sig (Gerard Cunningham) wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:01 +0100, David McQuillan
> wrote:
>
>>In article <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com>
>>          Oisín  wrote:
>>
>>> A chairde,
>>> 
>>> Recently I read in the Irish Herald of the new plague of immigrants upon
>>> Ireland.  What bozo(s) made possible the laws which allow the applicant
>>> for 'political' asylum to live in Ireland, all expenses paid, until
>>> their case's hearing?  This sort of nonsense must end!
>>> Does anyone have any info on what the political parties are doing to put
>>> an end to this formula for disaster?  Fianna Fa/il?
>>> 
>>> I appreciate the information!
>>> 
>>> Sla'n go Fo'ill
>>> 
>>> Oisi'n
>>
>>An offspring of Fingal I presume?
>
>Let's hope he buggers off to Tir Na Nogginless.
>

Thus spoke SCI's #1 politically correct thought control policeman.
Who's motto seems to be "think how I think... or else!"

Ray.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:11 EDT 1997
Article: 78167 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:56:41 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 24
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

>In article <5qm0rb$am7$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
>ama25@ahnnyong.cc.columbia.edu (Anthony M Annett) wrote:
>
>> >tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

Snip

>> The Qu'ran also claims that the Jesus faked his death.
>
>Of course they have to slag the competition, how else do you get market
>differentiation? :)

Then Tom, it's true?

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:12 EDT 1997
Article: 78177 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: If I were Taoiseach.
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:26:06 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 62
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Keithm  wrote:

>Well haveing the original thread hijacked into a N.I. thread, here are my 
>5 priorities if elected Taoiseach.
>
Snip options 1 - 3, I've no real comment on them.

>4 : Stop the sham campaign regarding the Gaelic language. Accept that it 
>will never apply to any more than a factional interest group, and 
>therefore remove the compulsion within the education system.

I dont' think they should remove it, but their should be new methods
used to teach it, perhaps incorporating it into Irish History classes,
and by so doing connecting the language with our heritage, history,
so that children do not look upon Irish as "a dead language".

>5 : Remove or amend articles 2 & 3 of the constitution. If anything does 
>need to replace them (and there would be a "hole" in the constitution if 
>they were simply removed), if should be the acceptable made by successive 
>Irish governments, since the early 1970's that the people of N.I. have the 
>right to determine their own future politicall independent of the 
>Republic. 

Give up our claim on the occupied zone, nope, couldn't agree to that one.
40% of the people in occupied Ulster are Catholics/nationalists who for the
most part want to see Ireland United, how could we betray their sacrifices?

Things you might consider if you were taoiseach:

Tighter immigration control.  The present system is wholly unworkable, thus we
are being swamped by illegal immigrants who then sponge off the taxpayer for
years while waiting their case to come up.  

What about a limit on the amount of money a Irish national can store in
overseas banks.  The "rich" complain that taxes are two high here, so
store their money overseas, so perhaps it's time to overhaul the tax
system to encourage people to store their money here, which the banks
will benefit from the interest charged, and the government will benifit
>from  as well.

We must reform the law and courts systems.  Prison has become a holiday
camp, sentences are a joke.  Prisions should be more aimed at punishment
then reforming prisoners.  If the prisioner is really sorry for his crime
when he gets out, he will reform himself, rather than face coming back
inside.

What about the Federal Europe that Ireland, England and others are allowing
themselves to be dragged into, this must be stopped.

The single Euro currency is not good news for the Irish either, and should
be stopped.

That's all I've time for now,

Ray.
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:13 EDT 1997
Article: 78198 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:02 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <33d0a84a.5740063@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>>The British government decides to withdraw it's soldiers. Civil war
>begins.
>>>The population is 60% Unionist, 40% Nationalist. You figure. (Please
>read
>>>why the British Army was brought into N.I. in the first place.).
>>
>>Do you suppose for a moment that the people in the Republic would stand
>and
>>watch this atrocity happen?  I'm not talking the Army, just the people
>>of Ireland.  Would you suppose that the British Army would attack them
>>as well?  I think not!  And if push came to shove, America has 44 MILLION
>>people of Irish extraction, so Ireland will not be an easy push over.
>>
>>
>
>Stop smoking crack!

Everyone that does not see things you way is a crack addict now then?


>The US would never...and I mean *never*....intervene
>in NI for one side or the other.

Well, Billy Boy has certainly been making himself very busy concerning the
Irish peace process hasn't he?

>Name any price or any bet and I will take
>it. It will never happen.

It's tempting, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying, possibly
I didn't make it clear enough.  I was not talking abour military intervention
by the US, I was talking about the Irish-Americans who have strong leanings
towards Ireland, and a United Ireland as not being willing to stand to the
side and watch Ireland be destroyed by civil war.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:14 EDT 1997
Article: 78210 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!imp.ch!globalip.ch!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newsfeed.cableol.net!news-peer!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:41 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <33d1eb6d.7719674@news.iol.ie>
References: <01bc8ff7$9778c620$afccedcc@ibm-compatible> <01bc9033$302cb760$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ca6fd0.2030643@news.iol.ie> <01bc90f9$bbe2f140$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cba3f1.2726694@news.iol.ie> <01bc91c6$eb17f820$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ccd963.1879590@news.iol.ie> <01bc9291$5aa04f60$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie> <5qmfos$o5a$9@News.Dal.Ca> <33cf5539.3696028@news.iol.ie> <5qroao$dvo$4@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>
>: I was trying to say that it will not be a clean cut, us V them in Ireland
>: there are millions of Irish Americans, who have a better grasp of their
>: culture than the British Americans as well, who would not be willing to
>: stand by and watch Irish people slaughtered.
>
>
>     Some of them don't seem to mind when it's done by the IRA.  

Yes, but when have we ever heard the so called English-Americans, if they
exist at all, ever condemn the Loyalist terrorist groups?

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:15 EDT 1997
Article: 78212 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish,soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.misc
Subject: "My Gaeltacht Experience" [was: A National Disgrace]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:19:00 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 163
Message-ID: <33ce7d7a.8987167@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:78212 soc.culture.celtic:23442 soc.culture.misc:2332

Good Day,

Some weeks ago, I posted an article to soc.culture.irish,
subject: A National Disgrace!!!  Which told the story of a young woman
being expelled from an "all Irish" Collage:  To refresh people's memory
and for those who were not reading that thread or simply weren't monitering
soc.culture.irish at that time, I've reproduced the original article I
posted here:

---original article.
Found this interesting national disgrace today on BBC's Ceefax
teletext service, no doubt this story will be spreading to other
media later.

An Irish Student Michelle Hartnett sneezed and said "Pardon me" for
which she was sent home from an *all Irish* school in Co. Galway.

17 year old Michelle was refused a refund of her £250 fee.

In this school, all communication is done in Irish only, A collage
spokesman said "The rule is strictly enforced, students are made
fully aware of this".

Does that beat all or what!  The Irish language is dying, most
people sneer at it, as old, unnecessary, but it's our cultural
language, at least it was until the Brits forced us to use English.

Here we had a young woman, who so love the language that she paid
£250 just to learn it, and look at the disgraceful way she was treated
for *1* simple slip that could have happened to anyone.  The teachers at
this disgraceful collage must have taken lessons on "Stalin's teaching
101". 

Now this young woman has left, perhaps due to this bad experience she
may become resentful towards Gaelic, and never use it, instead of using
it as she originally wanted to do so enough to pay a high price.

I'll tell you, it's no wonder our language is dying out when idiotic teachers
are willing to act like stalinist dictators in inforcing some stupid "laws"
so that... OH!!! I'm so angry with that school that I cannot continue!!!!

Ray.

----end original article.

The above story contained a typo in that it was £280.00 not £250.00, which
I corrected in a follow up article.

A few days ago, I was contacted by the young lady in question, who said:

---original email
Dear Ray,

After 3 weeks I've just read your article on the Internet and I would
just like to thank you for the interest you showed in my ' Gaeltacht
experience'. As you might have guessed I am Michelle Hartnett , using
my friend's Email to show my appreciation.  I was taken-aback at the
flood of positive support that I received and hope that my incident
will help to highlight practices such as these and prevent similar
instances occurring.

Go raibh mile a maith agat - Michelle Ni hAirtneid
---end original email.

I sent my regards and suggested that she supply a "follow up" comment
that I would post to this newsgroup, I am delighted that she has done
so, and here is the reply in full: (header cleaned up)

Message-Id: <199707171843.TAA31569@kirk.tinet.ie>
From: "Mulhalls" 
To: 
Subject: My Gaeltacht Experience
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:05:22 +0100

Dear Ray,

	With the help of a friend I'll try to give you a brief outline
of my dismissal for the Gaeltacht and what has happened since then.

	As you are aware I was sent home from Colaiste nabhFiann, Rosmuc
after excusing a breakfast sneeze with ''Pardon me''. I had spent the
previous six months working part-time to save enough to send me on the
course. After being summoned to the bainisteoir I was told that I spoken
a complete sentence in English and that my parents must be informed  of
this breach of college rules. I had not even been given a caution beforehand
- as was college policy. At four o'clock I was instructed to pack my bags
after spending the day cut off from college activities and my friends. 
After not being allow to speak English on the train home, I was met by my
distraught mother who had not been told what my 'complete sentence' was and
had even been given the incorrect time of the train's arrival.

	I was extremely upset and embarrassed at this turn of events as were
my family and friends.  My sudden departure occurred not half way through my
course and I was informed a refund was out of the question. My Mam would not
let the matter rest - she wanted to highlight this incident and prevent it from
reoccurring. I sent a letter to the 'Upbeat'  programme on Radio 1 from where
the incident gaine widespread public interest. After my radio interview I was
flooded with calls from various national newspapers, as well as local and
national radio stations. My experience received some international exposure
through articles ranging from the Lndon Times to Reuters and the Internet.
'Upbeat' was inundated with calls of support  and I was given the opportunity
of taking two free Gaeltacht course and an offer to set up a fund to see me
returning to a Gaeltacht college  I really appreciated all these offers  but
thought it would be too awkward to return to the Gaeltacht. Unfortunately, i it
was reported in some media that I was taking up these offers.

	Colaiste na bhFiann kept silent throughout the following weeks .
However a representative of Gaeltacht colleges took part in a local radio
debate with me where I was roundly  criticised for planning take the matter
further. The main reason for my trip was to improve my level of Irish as I
was planning to take the subject at Honours level in the Leaving Certificate.
I had been taught to say ''Pardon me'' for 17 years - how the college
can expect a person to forgot a life's training  after a couple of days
is beyond me.  For myself, the unconscience action of a sneeze is inseparable
with ''Pardon me'''.

 	I have tried not to let this experience put me off ''mo theanga
dhuchais''  but already, my sister , planning to take a Gaeltacht course
next summer has opted for a local French course instead. While all over the
country our native language is in decline, in my opinion colleges like these
are doing their upmost to keep the language in the 19th century.  I only
 hope my experience will highlight and improve this situation. Before I
finish I would like to extend my thanks to the members of various media 
who have helped inform others of my story.

				Is mise le meas
				Michelle Ni hAirtneid
(Any messages will be forwarded to me through smulhall@tinet)

----Message ends.

This is truely a sad happending, and like I feared, Michelle has stopped
learning Irish and her sister has been put off so much that she will learn
French instead.

I had hoped that the update would bring some joy, but I'm afraid the news is
as bad as I had feared.  

Those teachers in that damn collage should be all immediately replaced with
more tolerant teachers, I mean, the young lady hadn't even received a previous
warning for Heavens sake!

So long as Stalinist dictators disguised as teachers are responsible for
teaching Irish, the language is bound to die out completely.  If Stalin
could see these teachers, his heart would burst with pride!!

What's really bad is that after all this time, the teachers are still
unrepentant at what they have done, and if they get away with it, there
is no incentive for them to moderate their policy... 

I urge you to contact Michelle and send her your letters of support, show
her that you care, and show her that she is not alone!!

If anybody knows the email address of any of the teachers involved, or
the collage itself, why not post it here, so that people can express
their feelings towards the teachers personally for this outrage.  If you
wish to supply the email address and remain anonymous, forward it to me,
and I'll post if for you.

Thank you,

Ray.



From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:16 EDT 1997
Article: 78229 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!News1.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!ais.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:35:41 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <33d25a70.2313885@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie> 
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:78229

Ozymandias  wrote:

>
>
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Ray Hourigan wrote:
>
>What a good idea!
>
>I mean, I'm sure none of us are sad enough to spend an hour or two
>clicking the "reload" button and voting again and again...
>
>Ozy

Ah, poor Ozy is jealous 'cause I thought of the idea first. 
UCC 0 Ray 1 :-)

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:17 EDT 1997
Article: 78243 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:37:32 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <33cf4728.95186@news.iol.ie>
References: <5pohka$rug$1@ccnet2.ccnet.com>  <33ca3547.4575063@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <5pt71l$8ka$4@News.Dal.Ca> <33c25f64.62698@news.iol.ie>  <33c61ffd.3881689@news.iol.ie>  <33c8a5b7.1977547@news.iol.ie>  <33ccd8f4.1768702@news.iol.ie> <5qlnhn$nee$2@news.indigo.ie>
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linehan@indigo.ie (Paul Linehan) wrote:

>
>rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>
>
>> Hmmm... Why not quote a Christian book like the Bible, not a book of a religion
>> that is opposed to Christian teachings.
>
>
>You're like those lesbo-fem radicals who refuse to read books by men.
>

Gee, Paul I was only making a suggestion, since Christianity is the belief
system in Ireland, not Islam.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
- Wilde, Oscar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
 I.N.N.  homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:18 EDT 1997
Article: 78247 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:18:00 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <33d25d58.3058726@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie> <33d1eecd.8583835@news.iol.ie> 
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tallpaul@nyct.net (Paul Kneisel) wrote:

Hi Paula! ;-)

>People who respond to Hourigan's post below should be aware that they
>are providing their names and e-mail addresses to someone with:
>
>1) the political background as a fully-functioning and fully-conscious
>fascist;

 heard it all before, infact everyones heard it all before, why
don't you move back to that rock you crawled out from under and do
me, yourself and especially everyone else here a HUGE favour!
Hasn't it got into your thick head yet, that everyone here sees you as
the troll you are!  People are laughing at you Paula!!!

>2) despite his claims to have resigned from "the movement" maintains
>"membership" in a group that links itself to Le Pen's fascist Front
>National in France.

Three little words: Evidence or retract.

>You may not wish to respond to Hourigan's request for your names and
>addresses under such circumstance.

Why, I might reply and send the ufo's from the southpole base containing
then Nazi brainwashing waves against them, eh?  (friends, this is a joke
that has been going the rounds in the "movement" for years.)

>You might also note that his post actually is Ray Hourigan responding
>to nobody but Ray Hourigan himself.

Oh, wow, I followed up on my own article, oh the cheek!  Paula didn't
you read the follow up, it was a thankyou to people for voting, since
then more have voted.  By your calculations, this time next week everyone
on this newsgroup will be enslaved to me!  Jesus Paul get a life!!

>Fascism: We have no ethical right to forgive. We have no historical right to forget.

Define fascism then?

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:19 EDT 1997
Article: 78275 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.dal.ca!usenet.logical.net!news.IAEhv.nl!supernews.com!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:15:32 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 54
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Hi,

I've been reading many different viewpoints on this group, and I got to thinking
wouldn't it be good if we had some sort of way of knowing what the majority view
on some issues on this group actually was?

This, along with my desire to contribute something other than my viewpoint to
this newsgroup, brought me to the conclusion that what this newsgroup needed
was an opinion poll.  I'm not sure if this is the first newsgroup to get
an opinion poll, but the political nature of this group lends itself well
to the idea.

This will give people the oppertunity to find out if their views are widely
accepted or if their views are only a minority.  Everybody liked to know
if their views are popular or not.

So...

>From  this week, and each week at weekends, I will be putting a question on
my webpage at http://wwww.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652/opinionpoll.html
You can bookmark it and visit once a week easily.

You now have a week in which to visit and mark your view, click the send
button and wait for the poll to close and see if your views concur with
everybody elses or if you are the only one holding a particular view.

When the poll closes next weekend, I will post the results and a new
question to my webpage.  I will also be posting the results and information
about the new question to this newsgroup.

To start the ball rolling, this weeks question concerns the future status
of Ulster, should it remain with Britain or Ireland or Independant?  View
my opinionpoll.html, and cast your votes.

All votes sent in will be destroyed as soon as they are registered, and
the identity of the voters and how they voted will not be released to
anyone, anonymity is assurred.

Suggestions for future questions welcome.  I hope this is seen as the
oppertunity it's meant to be, you have nothing to lose only a few seconds
it takes you to vote, with the reward of the chance to see how popular
your opinion is on this Newsgroup.

Any questions or comments, either email or post them here, and I'll do
my best to answer them to your satisfaction.

Regards,

Ray.
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:22 EDT 1997
Article: 78389 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.dal.ca!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:05 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <33d0a925.5958873@news.iol.ie>
References: <33cfc2d2.5404650@news.iol.ie> <19970719025401.WAA12202@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33cfc2d2.5404650@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>That was many months ago, and since then there has been much discussion
>on
>>this group about Ireland, and it's culture and race.  Have you noticed
>Keith
>>that it's no longer unusual to be discussing these things on this group?
>>And many people have supported my campaign to have illegal immigrants who
>>are clearly scroungers booted out quickly.
>>
>>
>
>Almost nobody supported you and the few who did ran away screaming after
>you were asked to expand on your initial statements. Say what you want,
>Ray but it is a little bizarre to twist the truth about something that
>100's (at least) know when you are lying. 

100's eh, I don't think there are anything like that many, in fact there
are about 10-12 guys who regularly engage me on this group.  There are some
who support me, and there are many who ignore me - and you as well no doubt.

let's see hundreds means at least 200, so 200-12=188.  So Bill, where are these
188 missing people?

Seems to me, that you are now in the "wish-it-were-true" world.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:23 EDT 1997
Article: 78413 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.dal.ca!usenet.logical.net!demos!Gamma.RU!srcc!newsfeed.sovam.com!sovam!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: The sash my father wore!
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:57:01 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <33ca7add.4859867@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:78413

Martin Hanna  wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Ray Hourigan wrote:
>
>> waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <5q9t0f$bei@portal.gmu.edu>, gdavis2@osf1.gmu.edu (Gareth G
>> >Davis) writes:
>> >
>> >>: Has anyone else noticed the fey profusion of exclamation points
>> >exercised
>> >>: by the kookier elements on either side (not to pick on Ray alone....I
>> >was
>> >>: also thinking of Conrad, Seamus, Nancy, et alia)?? There's a psyche
>> >>: doctorate in there somewhere.....
>> >>: Bill
>> >>
>> >>Maybe "Ray's" posts and Conrad's procession could meet in cyberspace
>> >>somewhere and beat each other to death before reach to SCI?
>> >
>> >I have a theory that they are splits off of the same personality. Did you
>> >ever notice that they never....and I mean never....exchange posts on the
>> >ng? Makes one wonder.....
>> >Bill
>> 
>> As usual, you are wrong.  No, Conrad and I are indeed different people, 
>> it is by sheer chance that we have not crossed swords on this group.
>
>Maybe it's like in the SF films where the same person exists more than
>once due to some cockup in time travel. If the two meet, or rather in this
>case, exchange posts then a paradox is created and the universe collapses
>in on itself.
>
>Gibber over.
>
>Martin.
>
No Martin, wrong again, but yours was the more inventive/entertaining answer,
I liked it. :-)

Ray.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A bigot is one who is obstinately and zealously attached to an
opinion that you do not entertain. - Bierce, Ambrose
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
 I.N.N.  homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:24 EDT 1997
Article: 78428 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!accesscom.com!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!wdcpop.dra.net!news.dra.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!europa.clark.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:58:55 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <33d330a2.4818777@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d0a84a.5740063@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>It's tempting, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying, possibly
>>I didn't make it clear enough.  I was not talking abour military
>intervention
>>by the US, I was talking about the Irish-Americans who have strong
>leanings
>>towards Ireland, and a United Ireland as not being willing to stand to
>the
>>side and watch Ireland be destroyed by civil war.
>>
>>Ray.
>
>The vast majority of Irish-Americans have no meaningful connection to
>Ireland.

Bill their very "lable" gives the lie to that, why are they using the
term Irish-American, if they don't care about Ireland.  The greatest
funding for the IRA comes from America, some of the most vocal calls
for a United Ireland come from I-A people.

> Of those that do, the vast majority are strongly against the use
>of violence to solve the problems that exist there.

This is probably so, just like here, there are people who want a UI,
but through peaceful consent, not war.

>You are dreaming if
>you think that 44 million Irish-Americans are going to contribute blood or
>money to a cause that they feel strongly ambivilent about.

A civil war in Ireland, will cause a strong reaction amongst the Irish-American
community. Whether they will react by coming here, funding nationalists, or
by heavy political lobbying for intervention either by the US or the UN I don't
know.

>The IRA are
>*not* seen as freedom fighters here....they are seen as one combatant in a
>murky conflict that is rather far away.

I'm not an advocate of the IRA, so it's not my place to defend them.  I don't
think distance is a problem for Americans, considering their interventionist
past in places like Korea, Vietnam, need I go on.

>A civil war caused by the
>withdrawal of British forces

This is not what would cause the war, the war if it occurred, would be started
by the Orange Order Unionists, who are akin to the White power croud in South
Africa, only the OO are against Catholicism.

>would not lead to a sudden conversion to extreme Republican nationalism.

Perhaps not republican, but there would be nationalistic reaction.  Remember
Nationalism and republican do not necessarily go hand in hand.  

>It would be more likely to lead to UN intervention and the reluctant entry
>of the US as a broker between the two parties. That's it, finito, end of story. 
>Bill

Well, Bill, we'll see, the United Ireland is going to be created sooner rather
than later.  Let's see where these new talks go.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:25 EDT 1997
Article: 78433 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:59:07 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <33d3343f.5743387@news.iol.ie>
References: <33c22f8a.17547937@news.axion.bt.co.uk> <5pvdl7$q5s@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <521bd5ab47@fano.demon.co.uk> <33d2da7e.54983473@news.wwa.com> <33d3417a.37735603@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <33d259f9.720810@news.wwa.com>
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re@d.my.sig (Gerard Cunningham) wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:52:41 GMT, nospam@here.com wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:17:48 GMT, re@d.my.sig (Gerard Cunningham)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>An offspring of Fingal I presume?
>>>
>>>Let's hope he buggers off to Tir Na Nogginless.
>>
>>And why would that be?  Do you like paying your taxes to support
>>illegal economic migrants from the pathetic ramshackle remains of the
>>former communist eastern bloc? 
>
>Actually Noel, I currently pay my taxes to support an ever-expanding
>military-industrial complex which regularly receives more money from
>Congress than it asks for.
>
>And I doubt very much if the 'immigration problem' in Ireland is as
>significant as it is made out to be by alarmist headlines.
>
>Keep taking the tabloids.

You've read the expose of the secret documents drawn up by the Irish
Govt.  in which the talk about the fear of the spread of diseases like
TB and AIDS.  They also mention fear of race riots.  This may have
come from a tabloid, but it quoted a government report.

The Irish already pay enough tax, why should they subsidise spongers
>from  foreign countries who have come here for no good reason only
to live off us like leaches?

The alarm bells are ringing, we ignore them at our perl!

Ray.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:26 EDT 1997
Article: 78435 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:58:39 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <33d32fb9.4585480@news.iol.ie>
References: <5pohka$rug$1@ccnet2.ccnet.com>  <33ca3547.4575063@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <5pt71l$8ka$4@News.Dal.Ca> <33c25f64.62698@news.iol.ie>  <33c61ffd.3881689@news.iol.ie>  <33c8a5b7.1977547@news.iol.ie>  <33ccd8f4.1768702@news.iol.ie>  <33ce3068.2879807@news.iol.ie>  <33cf53a0.3287017@news.iol.ie>  <33d09b4e.2415531@news.iol.ie> <33D2A327.1F6@bigfoot.com>
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John Rogers  wrote:

>Ray Hourigan wrote:
>> 
>> tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <33cf53a0.3287017@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>> >Hourigan) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Last night, I spent some time searching the Net for an electronic copy
>> >> of the Koran.  I found several "search the Koran" sites, and read it
>> >> chapter by chapter, but what I really wanted was a zip file containing
>> >> all the chapters to download.
>> >>
>> >> Anyone know where such a zipfile exists?
>> >
>> >Why not just go to the library and borrow a copy? It'd be easier to read,
>> >plus you wouldn't rack up the 'phone and on-line charges downloading it.
>> 
>> After reading some of the comments by people who confirm the books anti
>> Christian views, I don't think I'll bother afterall, what would be the
>> point in reading a book that will make my blood boil?
>> 
>> Ray.
>> 
>
>Well, Ray, I read your posts.
>-- 
>John Rogers

Sure, but my posts aren't designed to put forward a belief/religious
system that is opposite Christanity.

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:27 EDT 1997
Article: 78436 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:58:48 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <33d33015.4677270@news.iol.ie>
References: <01bc9033$302cb760$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ca6fd0.2030643@news.iol.ie> <01bc90f9$bbe2f140$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cba3f1.2726694@news.iol.ie> <01bc91c6$eb17f820$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ccd963.1879590@news.iol.ie> <01bc9291$5aa04f60$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie>  <33cf5430.3431685@news.iol.ie>  <33da12fe.3907839@news.wwa.com> 
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

Snip

>> >> What are you trying to do Tom, be the first to qualify for my killfiles
>> >> or something?
>> >
>> >Sure. Make my day.
>> 
>> Is Ray still using Free Agent to post?  FA has no killfile.
>
>Well, Ray said he doesn't have a killfile for his software, but he'll just
>ignore my posts (a wetware killfile). Personally, I consider getting into
>Ray's killfiles a source of pride and honour. Maybe he could list all the
>people he want's in his non-existent killfile, and we could then add a
>"Proud Owner of a Fingal's Non-Existent Kill-file Award" to our sigs, maybe
>even with an specially-designed icon, like those lamer Magellan awards.
>
Tom, you're falling into the Gerard Cunningham style of posting, and just
ahead of Bill Boyle.  

Ray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:27 EDT 1997
Article: 78437 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:59:34 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <33d33830.6752542@news.iol.ie>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>
>: To start the ball rolling, this weeks question concerns the future status
>: of Ulster, should it remain with Britain or Ireland or Independant?  View
>: my opinionpoll.html, and cast your votes.
>
>
>     What could I choose if I thought that a) it didn't matter where
>Ulster remained as long as the choice was democratic and that b) I'd
>like to see a power-sharing in NI between the RoI and the UK?  None of the
>options you mention seem to represent that point of view very well.
>(Maybe someone can also help me out by explaining whether the above
>positions are Unionist or Nationalist).
>

Well, Neil, perhaps the "don't know" box?  You are the first person to
say that the options available didn't suit your viewpoint.  If this is
a real complaint, and you didn't spend time formulating the above question
to deliberately point out an obscure viewpoint that my poll doesn't cater
for, then I apologise.

Feel free to forward suggestions for questions, and you can put in your
own choice of answers as well.

Ray.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:28 EDT 1997
Article: 78439 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:59:12 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <33d336fd.6445990@news.iol.ie>
References: <33C0D4BA.5A5B@nortel.ca>  <5pt5rp$hjn@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33c22f8a.17547937@news.axion.bt.co.uk> <5pvdl7$q5s@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <33d0acd2.6899888@news.iol.ie> <5quper$nv8$2@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>: Oisín  wrote:
>
>: >Recently I read in the Irish Herald of the new plague of immigrants upon
>: >Ireland.  What bozo(s) made possible the laws which allow the applicant
>: >for 'political' asylum to live in Ireland, all expenses paid, until
>: >their case's hearing?  This sort of nonsense must end!
>: >Does anyone have any info on what the political parties are doing to put
>: >an end to this formula for disaster?  Fianna Fa/il?
>
>: Visit my webpage, there is a section all about Illegal immigrants that you
>: should find interesting.  The URL is given in my sig.  Feel free to email
>: me as well.
>
>
>     They say that talking to yourself is the first sign of madness.
>
ah, Neil, what the hell are you talking about?

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:29 EDT 1997
Article: 78441 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:59:08 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <33d33555.6021319@news.iol.ie>
References: <5pt5rp$hjn@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33c22f8a.17547937@news.axion.bt.co.uk> <5pvdl7$q5s@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <521bd5ab47@fano.demon.co.uk> <33d2da7e.54983473@news.wwa.com> <33d3417a.37735603@betanews.compulink.co.uk> 
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

Snip - to the core.

>The question I have, based on some finer points of immigration law, is:
>
>In US immigration law, once you have submitted a petition to change
>immigrant status, then you can get a permit to work, even before the
>petition is approved. If your petition is eventually approved, fine, if
>not, then even though you're working, you get deported.
>
>What's the corresponding deal in the RoI? If an asylum applicant can't work
>until their petition for asylum is approved, then obviously they're going
>to be on the dole while waiting the application procedure to complete
>itself.

Yes, they cannot work while their application is examined.  They then
sponge of the state, and ultimately the people for up to 2 or 3 years,
at about £200 per week, this for housing and clothing food, etc.

Now, the thing to do is to strengthen the asylum application process,
so that spongers are weeded out from the people who really are seeking
asylum.  This will take money, but if the govt do not do this, then
in the long term, they are going to be worse off.

One thing that should be considered, is where is the potential sponger
coming to Ireland from?  If it's another EU country then boot him/her
back, let them seek asylum there.  

Secondly, if the country they are coming here from is not in a state
of civil unrest, or open warfare, they they can also be sent back.

Infact unless the very life of the individual is at risk, he should
be returned post haste.

There are other conditions as well, but I don't have time to list
them now.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:30 EDT 1997
Article: 78445 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: WHAT COLOUR IS OUR FLAG??
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:59:00 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <33d3335b.5515220@news.iol.ie>
References: <33CEFFC5.7739@hotmail.com> <1997Jul18.180732@France.Sun.COM> 
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

>In article <1997Jul18.180732@France.Sun.COM>, smckinty@france wrote:
>
>> In article <33CEFFC5.7739@hotmail.com>, Rob  writes:
>> >I was always led to believe that 'gold' was one of the colours of our
>> >flag, symbolizing one of the most recognizable icons of Irish culture,
>> >the harp.
>> >However, when I look around me at the Irish flags posted in various
>> >locations, I see nothing but orange.
>> >
>> >Why?
>> 
>> The flag symbolises the two traditions, Green & Orange, with the White
>> of peace between them.
>
>So even in the flag, there's a peace wall.

I know that it supposedly represents peace today, but was the original
meaning for the white peace, or separation?

.The Tricolour of Ireland was based on that of France and was first used
.by the nationalists of the Young Ireland movement in 1848 , a year of
.revolution throughoutEurope, in their struggle for freedom from Britain.
.Collins- Flags.

Just wondering.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:30 EDT 1997
Article: 78446 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:58:45 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <33d32f9a.4554024@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d0a50f.4913266@news.iol.ie> <19970721011201.VAA03724@ladder02.news.aol.com>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d0a50f.4913266@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>>Let me give you some advice, Ray....stop reading what *other* people say
>>>about books, blacks, Jews, honey traps, et cetera, et cetera. Instead, 
>>>turn off your computer and go out and experience all of the above
>>>yourself...with an open mind you might learn something about life.
>>
>>What, you mean open minded like you Bill? :-)
>>
>>Ray.
>
>Exactly.....
>Bill

Bill, do you not recognise sarcasm?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:31 EDT 1997
Article: 78456 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:59:17 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <33d33715.6469860@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie>  <33d25a70.2313885@news.iol.ie> <5cd597ac47@fano.demon.co.uk>
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David McQuillan  wrote:

>In article <33d25a70.2313885@news.iol.ie>
>          rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>
>> Ozymandias  wrote:
>> 
>> >On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Ray Hourigan wrote:
>> >
>> >What a good idea!
>> >
>> >I mean, I'm sure none of us are sad enough to spend an hour or two
>> >clicking the "reload" button and voting again and again...
>> >
>> >Ozy
>> 
>> Ah, poor Ozy is jealous 'cause I thought of the idea first. 
>> UCC 0 Ray 1 :-)
>
>I'm sure you did,

Are you suggesting otherwise?  How many people have offered to run an
opinion poll here before me then?

> that why I was intrigued by your undertaking:
>
>> All votes sent in will be destroyed as soon as they are registered, and
>> the identity of the voters and how they voted will not be released to
>> anyone, anonymity is assurred.
>
>as I was wondering how you would cope with multiple entries if you
>got rid of all identification as soon as votes are registered, after
>all as they say 'vote early, vote often'.

The vote is sent to me by email.  All votes sent in are replied to
to confirm it's arrival and it's content with the sender.  I keep the
votes until the week is up, and then post the results, change the
question, and begin again.

>Not that I personally
>am going to vote at your site as I believe the newspapers do a fine
>job of such polls and under much stricter supervision.

And newspapers are always polling the people of soc.culture.irish are they?

After all this is an unofficial poll of the people here, not Ireland in
general.  The more people that vote the more representative the result
will be, I strongly urge people to take a couple of seconds to vote.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:32 EDT 1997
Article: 78482 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!EU.net!Ireland.EU.net!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:19:16 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <33d3c346.8590782@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie> <5qvvhb$5rd@madge2.dev.madge.com>
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postmaster@localhost (Jill Baker) wrote:

>rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>
>>I am not a NAZI!  If I was a Nazi, this is what I would be doing right
>>now:
>
>>2. I would be a regular contributer to the SF-Newsletter. 
>
>Sinn Fein would totally and unequivocably disown you in these circumstances. I
>guarantee Sinn Fein would not print regular contributions from a Nazi in any
>newsletter. Sinn Fein are totally opposed to fascism and racism.

Jill, I didn't mean Sinn Fein, I meant Stormfront maillist, a racist maillist.
I thought it was obvious from the rest of the post, sorry if I confused you.
 
>You will not find many friends in the republican community.

You'd be surprised Jill, my beginnings in politics was with the lefties.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:33 EDT 1997
Article: 78496 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!Ireland.EU.net!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:19:03 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <33d3bff2.7738789@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie> <5qupti$nv8$3@News.Dal.Ca> <33d33830.6752542@news.iol.ie> <5r06ch$fc7$1@news.ime.net>
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excel@ime.net (Michael Rutan) wrote:

> 
>>>
>>>: To start the ball rolling, this weeks question concerns the future status
>>>: of Ulster, should it remain with Britain or Ireland or Independant?  View
>>>: my opinionpoll.html, and cast your votes.
> 
>I don't mean to get in the argument that started with this poll
>(typical), but would like to answer the question.

NO, no, this is exactly the type of thing I hoped would be the outcome
of the polls, I dont' what them to be just statistics, but a jumping off
point for debate.  

>The future of Ulster should be with Ireland.  Ireland and it's people
>have transformed their country in short time into one of the most
>succesfull countries in Europe.  It is poetic justice that NI should
>finally find peace and success.  Ni has had centuries of
>indentification with Britain and it just hasn't worked.    Also, the
>people and policies of Ireland do not contain discrimination regarding
>race, color or creed.  The idea that anyone in NI would be treated
>unfairly as a citizen of Ireland is absurd.

I happen to agree that the future of Ulster is with Ireland as a
United country.

Early results from the poll, and it's only 3 days into a week long polling
period, would suggest that it's split about 50-50 for an immediate UI
and people voting to never return Ulster to the republic.

Regards,

Ray.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:34 EDT 1997
Article: 78514 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.dal.ca!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:23:24 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 35
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

Snip - koran

>> >> Anyone know where such a zipfile exists?
>> >
>> >Why not just go to the library and borrow a copy? It'd be easier to read,
>> >plus you wouldn't rack up the 'phone and on-line charges downloading it.
>> 
>> After reading some of the comments by people who confirm the books anti
>> Christian views, I don't think I'll bother afterall, what would be the
>> point in reading a book that will make my blood boil?
>
>No, Ray, no point in reading something for yourself, or form your own
>views. After all, why read or think about something when you get get other
>people to do it for you?
>
>*Sigh*.

I'm a Christian, I've read material about the Koran from "movement" sites
and CI preachers.  I thought they were perhaps a little biast because of
their backgrounds, but now I've read some replies to the thread about
that book, from people who know about it, and who have no axe to grind
against it, but yet they condemn it.  They are confirming for me that
what I read before is valid, and I will not subject myself to reading
a load of Unchristian pagan crap.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:35 EDT 1997
Article: 78553 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news.misty.com!sol.pdnt.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:58:52 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <33d3701b.1523686@news.iol.ie>
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cbh@vodka.tnx.djmarkets.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote:

>In article <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie>,
>	rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) writes:
>	... snip ...
>
>I had a quick look at your question, but IMO there's one important
>response missing: "I'd go along with whatever the majority of NI
>inhabitants want".  Just a thought...
>
>Chris.

Yeah, Chris, that option should have been included, sorry.  
Bear with me though, becasue future polls will (hopefully) have
a section under "other" where you can put in your vote for 
an option that does not appear on the list.

This is just a sort of test, to see what respose, and what ideas
spring forth.  I've already begun working on a better interface
for the opinionpoll page.  Unfortuantely, I will be unable to
implement it on this vote, becasue it would invalidate votes
received before the new options that were presented to them.

but when the new vote comes out, I hope to have a better
system.  

Things can only get better.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:36 EDT 1997
Article: 78572 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:06:48 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 42
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33cf5361.3223747@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>>> >> >Well, Laochra doesn't make any bones about being a fascist. What
>>>about you,
>>>> >> >are you or aren't you a fascist?
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> I'm an Irish Nationalist.  I don't comment on An Loachra's views.
>>>> >
>>>> >You didn't answer the question. Yes or no?
>>>> 
>>>> There is no other answer.  At any rate a fascist is a member of the
>>Italian
>>>> Fascist Party.
>>>
>>>You ducked the question again, Ray.
>>
>>Tom, you're starting to turn into Bill Boyle before my eyes.  What
>happened
>>to
>>that guy that could debate without falling into little word games?
>>
>>Ray.
>>
>
>Funny how everyone comes around to my attitude towards you sooner or
>later.

It would seem so, but the quote: "It's discouraging to think how many
people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. - Coward, Noel 
springs to mind.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:37 EDT 1997
Article: 78573 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:07 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 52
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Keith G.Mills wrote:

>In article <33cf5662.3993718@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie says...
>>
>>"Keith Mills"  wrote:
>
>>I think that if the question was put to Ireland as a whole, "Should Ireland
>>be reunited"? 
>
>As I've explained previously to other people "reuniting" Ireland means having
>the island of Ireland having a degree of Home Rule (e.g. Gratton Parliament),
>but governed as part of the U.K.
>
>Ireland has NEVER been a single independent polotical entity, so your choice of
>the "re-united" word is innappropriate, unless you want us to re-join the UK.
>(A good idea for many, so unlikely to have come from you).

Word games.

>The question would have to be "Do you believe that the Republic of Ireland
>should expand it's juristiction to take take over a part of the United Kingdom?"
>
>I can ASSURE you that the answer would be "no", in both countries.

How about "800 years of stuggle, Millions of our people starved and murdered,
our hopes for freedom crushed under the blade of British Imperalism, Our
people oppressed by the gun in Ulster, People of Ireland, take this oppertunity
to say NO MORE! Ireland will be United, remove the saxon yoke from our midst!
Or you will betray everything that our people have fought for.  The cries from
the past demand that you do your duty now!  Free Ireland and allow those who
sacrificed themselves in the past, those who were butchered, starved and
hanged rest in their graves knowing their sacrifice was not in vain!
For to betray the sacrifice of the past, goes against the great spirit
of Mother Ireland, who longs for her four green fields to bloom once again!

>> When all things are considered, the majority would vote yes.
>>There are a few west-Britons here that would vote no, but if the option
>>was given the majority would vote yes without a doubt.
>>
>I often wondered what country you actualy posted from, and I think I did you a
>diservice. The question is What planet are you posting from?

Why Keith, what planet are you posting from?  

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:39 EDT 1997
Article: 78623 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:59:55 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <33d3c624.9324451@news.iol.ie>
References: <5pohka$rug$1@ccnet2.ccnet.com>  <33ca3547.4575063@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <5pt71l$8ka$4@News.Dal.Ca> <33c25f64.62698@news.iol.ie>  <33c61ffd.3881689@news.iol.ie>  <33c8a5b7.1977547@news.iol.ie>  <33ccd8f4.1768702@news.iol.ie>  <33ce3068.2879807@news.iol.ie>  <33cf53a0.3287017@news.iol.ie>  <33d09b4e.2415531@news.iol.ie> <33D2A327.1F6@bigfoot.com> <33d32fb9.4585480@news.iol.ie> 
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

Snip
>I have a hard time calling your beliefs in any way Christian.

How would you define a Christian?

>"And Jesus said 'There's just too many Samaritans round here,
>yaknowwaddamean? When I was a nipper, knew their place they did, but now
>they're all other the place, scroungers the lot of them. I was driving me
>cab west of the Jordan one day, saw a Samaritan lying on the side of the
>road, he'd been beated up. I just left him there, like people don't like
>round their type round here, not my fault he got beaten up, that's just
>what happens, rivers of blood you know. Just want someone to look after
>them, they do. The meek will inherit the earth, they say - not if I have
>anything to do with it, don't want them foreign meek bastards living near
>me. I had that Pontius Pilate in the back of my chariot once.'"
>
> - The Gospel according to St. Fingal, 2:13

Sounds like drug induced drivel. Did you get this from your unholy Koran.  



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:40 EDT 1997
Article: 78648 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:07:22 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <33d4bd06.85010@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d330a2.4818777@news.iol.ie> <19970722020801.WAA05883@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d330a2.4818777@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>>The vast majority of Irish-Americans have no meaningful connection to
>>>Ireland.
>>
>>Bill their very "lable" gives the lie to that, why are they using the
>>term Irish-American, if they don't care about Ireland.  The greatest
>>funding for the IRA comes from America, some of the most vocal calls
>>for a United Ireland come from I-A people.
>
>They use the term because it is where they are from. Ask them where in
>Ireland their family lived and the vast majority will have absolutely no
>idea.

And how many Africans can point to a village they came from?  How many
Dutch can point to their town.  None may know the exact town, but
they still have a place in their heart for their homeland.

>I also disagree that the greatest funding for the IRA comes from the
>US. The truth is neither one of us knows the answer to that. I personally
>suspect that the majority of the money that the IRA uses comes from
>Northern Ireland itself. I also suspect that alot of the money collected
>in the US never leaves these shores. As for the 'vocal calls' you
>describe....I think it is more a case of volume trying to compensate for
>lack of backing.

The above is debatable, but I'll leave it to others to point out your
mistaken belief that most of the IRA funding does not come from the US.

Snip

>You are anticipating a hypothetical situation of extreme violence that
>runs against your rote above about non-violence. Are you sure you know
>what you think?

Well, look at England's past, every time they pull out of a place, there
is a civil war or sorts.  My belief in non-violence does not mean that
I think the day Ireland is United, that everone will come out intothe
streets, to shake hands and make up.  There may or may not be a civil
war here, I hope not, but if there is, it will drag other countries
into it due to so many Irish being abroad.

>Further, I think *all* Americans would react strongly against a war of
>aggression against *either* side in NI.

Yeah, I suppose it depends on what spin the media give it how the US will
react.

>>
>>>The IRA are
>>>*not* seen as freedom fighters here....they are seen as one combatant in
>a
>>>murky conflict that is rather far away.
>>
>>I'm not an advocate of the IRA, so it's not my place to defend them.  I
>don't
>>think distance is a problem for Americans, considering their
>interventionist
>>past in places like Korea, Vietnam, need I go on.
>
>America has grown up alot since those days. You won't get us into a war
>unless some definate, strategic interests are involved.

Like Iraq, there was no strategic reason for America to attack Iraq.  That
was an Arab conflict and should have remained so.

>Basically, the conflict in NI would have to threaten NATO security before
>we would do much about it.

If you're talking about sending US troops, I adree.

>>>A civil war caused by the
>>>withdrawal of British forces
>>
>>This is not what would cause the war, the war if it occurred, would be
>>started
>>by the Orange Order Unionists, who are akin to the White power croud in
>South
>>Africa, only the OO are against Catholicism.
>
>Takes one to know one, eh?

 what was that?  Bill sliding back down to the "gutter tactic" of
debating.

Snip - UI sooner or later.

>Would you prefer peace or a united Ireland?
>Bill

Both.  We don't have either now, and until it's finally acknowledged that
a UI is the answer, we probably won't have peace.  

BUT, I might accept "joint rule", that is both the British and Irish govts.
share power equally.  For this to work, the British army would have to be
pulled out, and replaced with UN troops from a neutral country.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:40 EDT 1997
Article: 78649 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:07:15 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <33d4ca04.3411843@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d31e09.57175@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
>writes:
>
>>I'm a Christian, I've read material about the Koran from "movement" sites
>>and CI preachers.  I thought they were perhaps a little biast because of
>>their backgrounds, but now I've read some replies to the thread about
>>that book, from people who know about it, and who have no axe to grind
>>against it, but yet they condemn it.  They are confirming for me that
>>what I read before is valid, and I will not subject myself to reading
>>a load of Unchristian pagan crap.
>>
>>
>
>Ray proving for once and all that he is a bigotted, ignorant member of the
>racist 'movement'. Thanks for confirming that for us...

A bigot is one who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that
you do not entertain. - Bierce, Ambrose

Bill, can you understand this statement?  Because if you can, then you must
see yourself in it...

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:41 EDT 1997
Article: 78650 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:07:42 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <33d4c097.998023@news.iol.ie>
References: <5pt5rp$hjn@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33c22f8a.17547937@news.axion.bt.co.uk> <5pvdl7$q5s@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <521bd5ab47@fano.demon.co.uk> <33d2da7e.54983473@news.wwa.com> <33d3417a.37735603@betanews.compulink.co.uk>  <33d33555.6021319@news.iol.ie> 
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

>In article <33d33555.6021319@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) wrote:
>
>> tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:
>> 
>> Snip - to the core.
>> 
>> >The question I have, based on some finer points of immigration law, is:
>> >
>> >In US immigration law, once you have submitted a petition to change
>> >immigrant status, then you can get a permit to work, even before the
>> >petition is approved. If your petition is eventually approved, fine, if
>> >not, then even though you're working, you get deported.
>> >
>> >What's the corresponding deal in the RoI? If an asylum applicant can't work
>> >until their petition for asylum is approved, then obviously they're going
>> >to be on the dole while waiting the application procedure to complete
>> >itself.
>> 
>> Yes, they cannot work while their application is examined.  They then
>> sponge of the state, and ultimately the people for up to 2 or 3 years,
>> at about £200 per week, this for housing and clothing food, etc.
>
>There's your answer. Give 'em temporary work permits while they're waiting.

So they can take Irish jobs, what about the IRISH unemployed?  These
spongers don't want to work, they are not running from their country because
of political persecution, they are running to have an easy life.

Next you'll be proposing affirmative action to assure that illegals get
work here.

No, displacing Irish workers with illegal immigrant workers isn't tbe answer.
More investment in the immigration department is what's needed.

Think what that 25+ million could have done to create jobs for the unemployed
here, instead of being given to those spongers who offer nothing in return.
Next year, it could double, I hope the Irish Govt acts to prevent this.

>If you don't let them work, and you can't let them starve in the street
>while waiting for the wheels of the judical process to turn ('cos that
>would violate the terms of the Human Rights Convention where asylum status
>was agreed), then you're stuck with having to support them while the
>decision is being made.

Yes, this is true, I agree, they should be taken care of while there are
here, but the process of examining their cases is FAR TOO LONG, taking
up to 3 years!  It should take 3 weeks max.

>> Now, the thing to do is to strengthen the asylum application process,
>> so that spongers are weeded out from the people who really are seeking
>> asylum.  This will take money, but if the govt do not do this, then
>> in the long term, they are going to be worse off.
>> 
>> One thing that should be considered, is where is the potential sponger
>> coming to Ireland from?  If it's another EU country then boot him/her
>> back, let them seek asylum there.  
>> 
>> Secondly, if the country they are coming here from is not in a state
>> of civil unrest, or open warfare, they they can also be sent back.
>
>All of the above are part of the decision process in deciding whether a
>refugee is a refugee or not. Now, who's fault is it if the process takes
>two years? Like I've said before, it sounds like it's not a problem with
>the law or policy but with the length of time required to implement the
>process. I have no problem with speeding up the decision - I think it's
>inhumane to keep people in limbo for two or more years before they know
>whether they can stay in a country or not.

It is inhumane to expect the taxpayer to fork out money week in week out,
year in year out to keep these spongers as well.  And when they get booted
out, a record of their stay should be recorded, and if they attempt to enter
again, they should be put back on the same plane they arrived on for
immediate departure.

>*But*, you can't expel them
>until their status as refugees is decided or not. To do so would be a
>violation of due process, and you have (rightly) defended due process in
>other contexts.

Political refugees, who's life is endangered, they can come in, if their
country of origin is not in the EU.  Like for instance, a refugee arrives
>from  France saying his life is in danger, and that he is a political refugee,
but his real country of origin is say Iran, he should not be allowed in because
he is safe in France.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:43 EDT 1997
Article: 78670 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:08:07 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <33d4c767.2742645@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie> <5qvvhb$5rd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33d3c346.8590782@news.iol.ie> 
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

>In article <33d3c346.8590782@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) wrote:
>
>
>> You'd be surprised Jill, my beginnings in politics was with the lefties.
>
>Which group?

Well, Tom, I'd rather not go into it on an open newsgroup.  Suffice to
say it was a militant leftist group.  I was not a member, but I
attended their meetings and other stuff.

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:43 EDT 1997
Article: 78671 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:08:11 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <33d4c7cd.2844141@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie> <5qvvhb$5rd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <5r1i44$5fc$6@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Jill Baker (postmaster@localhost) wrote:
>
>: Sinn Fein would totally and unequivocably disown you in these circumstances. I
>: guarantee Sinn Fein would not print regular contributions from a Nazi in any
>: newsletter. Sinn Fein are totally opposed to fascism and racism.
>
>: You will not find many friends in the republican community.
>
>
>     Ray has at least never endorsed killing anybody or defended the
>necessity for murder (afaik), which puts him a notch above some of the SF
>people around here (e.g. Russ).
>     

Thanks you!!

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:44 EDT 1997
Article: 78672 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:08:16 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <33d4c88c.3035421@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie> <5r1hu6$5fc$5@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>: Greetings,
>
>: It's been some months now since I joined this newsgroup.  Over those
>: months, I've endured much more criticism than I did over all the time
>: I was involved with the "movement".
>
>: I thought I was making progress at breaking the stereotype some of you
>: tried to cast me as, that is until I visited Gerard Cunningham's homepage
>: and read the piece he has about "fingal" posted there, right under a pic of
>: old Adolf himself.
>
>
>     If you're not a Nazi then you shouldn't post neo-Nazi material (esp.
>"the voice of St. Patrick").

Yup, I was attacked by friends and foes alike for posting the first one,
and so this brought the "disclamier" on the second one.  I posted the whole
thing, warts and all, because it was aimed at a adult readership who could
make their own minds up about the source and the message.  I will not be
posting a vosp3.

>But I am willing to agree that you have become a bit of a safe whipping-boy
>on this newsgroup, which is a pity.

Well, Neil, you said it!  Now you can read the replies from the PC goons who
will no doubt pull you up the last piece asking why it's a pity, and before
you know it, they'll be accusing you of being a "fascist" for daring to
think for yourself and form your own opinion on this group.  

I am trying to rid myself of my past, but it's not easy when each and
almost every article I read mentions it.  I think a child molester would get
a better chance around these parts, and that's saying something.

But I won't be deterred, I intend to stay here, and counter the PC crap posted
by many (you reading this Ger and Tom) and the flames posted by Bill, and
the trolls by well almost everyone.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:44 EDT 1997
Article: 78673 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!supernews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:08:13 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <33d4c803.2898800@news.iol.ie>
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tallpaul@nyct.net (Paul Kneisel) wrote:

Snip

>His post deserves a detailed response rather than a quick joke or two
>here (and I intend to provide one.)

I CAN wait.

>But I am reminded of the movie _Dr. Strangelove_ where the good
>doctor's hand keeps jumping up in a "Sieg Heil" salute as the doctor
>has to keep pulling it down. Similarly, in his article, Hourigan
>writes:

Indicated the level of serious thought you're going to put into your
reply to my post doesn't it.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:45 EDT 1997
Article: 78675 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news.theriver.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!europa.clark.net!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:07:34 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <33d4c029.887844@news.iol.ie>
References: <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <521bd5ab47@fano.demon.co.uk> <33d2da7e.54983473@news.wwa.com> <33d3417a.37735603@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <33d259f9.720810@news.wwa.com>  <33d6bdb5.12986799@betanews.compulink.co.uk>
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nospam@here.com wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:30:22 -0800, tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com
>(tom mcvey) wrote:
>
>
>>As I remarked in another thread, I'd rather be worried about arrivals of
>>Eastern European refugees than Eastern European missiles. 
>
>Well, given the choice, so would I.  But it should not be up to the
>west to take the dregs that result from their 40 years of fucked-up
>economics.

Missiles kill us quickly, illegal immigration, and culture destruction that
it brings kills us slowly, but it still kills us just as dead.

>
>>Well, Ray said it was costing 25 million pounds per year, which is almost
>>enough to buy you 20 taoiseachs. :)
>
>20 taoiseachs?  1 is more than enough :-)
>
>>Still, it's small change in a national budget. If the Germans were as
>>stingy with their cash to the EU as Noel wants us to be with refugees, then
>>we'd be in big trouble.
>
>They are not refugees.  They are economic migrants.

Exactly!

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:46 EDT 1997
Article: 78689 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!europa.clark.net!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:07:52 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <33d4c32a.1657750@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie>  <33d25a70.2313885@news.iol.ie> <33d3446e.9865173@bhars12c>
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See@my.signature (Stephen Littley) wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:35:41 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
>wrote:
>
>>Ozymandias  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Ray Hourigan wrote:
>>>
>>>What a good idea!
>>>
>>>I mean, I'm sure none of us are sad enough to spend an hour or two
>>>clicking the "reload" button and voting again and again...
>>>
>>>Ozy
>>
>>Ah, poor Ozy is jealous 'cause I thought of the idea first. 
>>UCC 0 Ray 1 :-)
>
>
>Ozy has a valid point.  It's not a fair and accurate method of
>measuring opinion given the ease with which you can register
>additional votes simply by reloading.

As I've said already the poll isn't anonymous, I will see who the vote
if from, and can eliminate multiple votes that way.  So far I've had
two people enter multiple votes, but that was probably down to the
form I've used on the opinionpoll page than deliberate attempt to
vote more than once.  I've changed the style of form for the next
poll, that will make it less likely that this will happen.

>It sounded like a nice idea to start with though.

It will work out.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:48 EDT 1997
Article: 78727 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: The famine
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:50:57 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <33ca7024.2114621@news.iol.ie>
References: <33ccec23.3976848@news.xs4all.nl>
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pmoorer@xs4all.nl (Pieter) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>My name is Pieter.
>In soc.culturel.netherlands I'm having a discussion about the famine.
>Whe are talking about the inflleunce  that the English had on
>distributing food-help-supply. 
>
>Can anyone give me some good info about it.
>And also about the influence the landlords had on it.
>
>I'dd apppriciate it,
>
>Pieter

Hi Pieter,

I have a section on my webpage dedicated to the "famine" more correctly named
the Irish Genocide or Irish Holocaust.  The address is:

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652

If you have any questions, you can email me, and I'll try to answer them
for you.

Regards,

Ray.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's discouraging to think how many people are shocked by
honesty and how few by deceit. - Coward, Noel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
 I.N.N.  homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:49 EDT 1997
Article: 78743 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:54 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <33d1f275.9519674@news.iol.ie>
References: <5pohka$rug$1@ccnet2.ccnet.com>  <33ca3547.4575063@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <5pt71l$8ka$4@News.Dal.Ca> <33c25f64.62698@news.iol.ie>  <33c61ffd.3881689@news.iol.ie>  <33c8a5b7.1977547@news.iol.ie>  <33ccd3b5.425462@news.iol.ie>  <33cdfa22.140328 
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tallpaul@nyct.net (Paul Kneisel) wrote:

Nothing of importance whatsoever, a complete waste of cyberspace, a complete
waste of time, rather like weasel, er... kneisel him/herself. Hi paula!
 
Listen Paula, I can give as good as I get and more, until you address me with
more respect, you can expect to have your venom turned right back at you!!!

If you can evolve from the infantile intelligence of an amoeba, I'll be glad
to debate with you on this group.  So if you have some INTELLIGENT things to
say to me, I'll listen.  Your flames are burning you a lot than they are me.
 
The ball's in your court!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
- Wilde, Oscar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
 I.N.N.  homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:53 EDT 1997
Article: 78873 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.theriver.com!news-xfer.mccc.edu!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!feed1.news.erols.com!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:43:47 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <33d5e6bc.1126897@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d4bd06.85010@news.iol.ie> <19970722210400.RAA29255@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:78873

waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d4bd06.85010@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
>writes:
> 
>snip
>
>>
>>And how many Africans can point to a village they came from?  
>
>Have you stopped for a moment to consider the absurdity (and bad taste) of
>that statement?
>
>snip
>
>>
>>
>>Like Iraq, there was no strategic reason for America to attack Iraq. 
>That
>>was an Arab conflict and should have remained so.
>
>If ignorance is bliss then you are the happiest guy in the world. It's
>called oil, Ray. It's black, smelly and it makes the industrialized world
>go around. 

And what of Texas, Iran and other oil producing countries?  

And Iraq has been only able to sell a fraction of it's oil to buy much
needed humanitarian aid and food.  Well, then, how come America hasn't
ground to a halt with this lack of oil?

We both know why American lives were sacrificed.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:53 EDT 1997
Article: 78876 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:43:51 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <33d5e741.1260141@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:78876

*gb@*scms.rgu.ac.uk* (Gavin Bailey) wrote:

>rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>
>>No they are not, they are in occupied Ireland.
>
>Just what exactly makes your view legitimate and theirs illegitimate?
>NI was set up by agreement in the 1921 Anglo-Irish treaty and if you
>are advancing the view that NI is an "illegitimate" state, "occupying"
>territory rightfully owned by another nation, then the Irish Republic
>is equally illegal and illegitimate.  As would be 99% of the states
>across the world.

Another anglophile responds to me.  In the Republic, order is NOT maintained
at the barrel of a gun.  Can the same be said of the occupied areas of
Irealand?

Both Ireland and England lay claim on Ulster, but one of these countries
forces it's viewpoint by threat of arms and troops on streets to supress
protest, can you guess which one?

Snip

>>Look, sooner or later Ireland will be reunited!
>
>Why?  Mystical nationalist divine force?  Does the agency of man
>figure in this vision at all?

It's obvious.  Have you ever watched a waterdrop appear on a tap, it grows
bigger and bigger, and you just know it's going to fall.

>>  better it's sooner. 
>
>Why?

It will save more lives this way.  If it's allowed another 50 years, then
that is 50 more years of terror on boths sides of the community of Ulster.

>> BOTH
>>British and Irish Governments are not doing enough, 
>
>To satisfy my mystical nationalist demands at the expense of the
>majority in NI....

No, to look for solutions, solutions that could marginalise the terror groups
out of the vacuum government inaction has created.

>>The Catholics, be they nationalistic or not have had to put up with an imposed
>>British Presence in the Occupied zone.  Why is it alright for them to put up
>>with that but not allright when the possibility is that the Unionists and
>>Loyalists, as opposed to Protestants (glad you made that distinction) have
>>the possibility of having Irish troops in Ulster?
>
>Unionists and Loyalists after 1922 had to put up with an Irish
>presence in the Southern Occupied Zone.

One of these zones is not like the other, one of these zones just
isn't the same, can you guess which one?

>>> - I don't think they will, and if
>>>the UK, with its greater resources, couldn't militarily stop the IRA, what
>>>makes you think the RoI would be able to stop the Loyalists?
>
>>Let's face it Tom, the loyalist terrorists are not in the same league as
>>the Nationalist ones.  They have fewer numerically, are less "advanced"
>>technically, have less "support" amongst protestants, and so forth.
>
>This is your vaunted desire to look for a "positive solution"?
>Nationalist violence in response to perceived territorial coercion is
>justified, but the threat of mass loyalist violence is both
>unjustified and exaggerated?  Take a look at the sectarian murder rate
>after Westminster imposed direct rule, you blithering idiot.

I think, with all due respect, that you are the blitering idiot here, not I!
I have never once EVER advocated violence, I do not support violence to
achieve political aims.  History has shown that the pen is mightier than
the sword.  I simply said that if Ulster was returned to Ireland by the
British Government, the threat from Ulster terrorists is not as great as
it appears.

>Your views are both hypocritical in theory and ignorant in practice.

And your views that the Irish Republic is the "sothern occupied zone"
isn't?

>>Well, Tom, if we want our great grandchildren to be still fighting about
>>the situation in Ulster, then we can simply follow your plan, if however
>>we ever want peace, we must reunify Ireland, sooner the better - for
>>everyone, on all sides of the divide.
>
>Unless people like you can grasp "A Just Peace" does not equal
>"Everybody Must Obey My Wishes!" there will never be any kind of
>peace.

You must take some of that medicine yourself Gavin,

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:54 EDT 1997
Article: 78895 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news1.netusa.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!Ireland.EU.net!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:38:09 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <33c9f6be.4637869@news.iol.ie>
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tallpaul@nyct.net (Paul Kneisel) wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:40:13 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray "whitewolf"
>Hourigan)  <33c8a5b7.1977547@news.iol.ie> wrote on a variety of
>topics.
>
>His continued attempts to rewrite his history go on, and therefore so
>do my responses.

Oh, I did'nt think you cared.  I'd been advised to ignore your trolling,
but the lies you spew need to be addressed.

>>Those two guys that that I was originally responding to annoyed me with talk
>>of killing without trial, and they are the ones who point the finger at me
>>and my friends as fascists.  
>>
>>I'm a non violent person, and I believe in non violent solutions to problems,
>>with a sword you draw blood, with a pen you write history.
>>
>
>I've never figured out what a "non-violent" fascist was. Do they use
>Pine-Scented ZYKLON-B? Rubber treads on the Panzers?

 troll, you are boring the ass of me, why don't you go back under
that rock that someone moved and let you out.

Snip - attack on my friends, not worthy of response.

>>I don't see myself as part of the "movement" anymore.  I've cut all ties,
>>and even cut links with people I had as political friends, none of my current
>>friends are "movement" people, and if they were, I would not befriend them,
>>My aims are purely for Ireland, the protection of the race of Irish, the
>>culture and it's future.  Unlike Pierce I do not make money from this, I do
>>not publish books, I work for what I believe, not for money profit.
>>
>
>Despite his pronouncement of cutting "all" ties, if you check his web
>page at Geocities under "Friends" you find that only hasn't he "cut
>all times" to his previous Internet Aryan Corp Fuehrer Milton Kleim.
>He lists Kleim as a "a good friend of mine for a long time now" and
>even includes a link to Kleim's new web site.
>
>Oops!

Whats that "oops!" for, your brain slip out your hole again!  As you
know full well, my friends have NOW nothing to do with the "movement".
And Milton's resignation was well knows about, as you know well.

What you neglected to say, probably due to that heavy chip you're
carrying, is that I have a "disclamier" in that I said that none of
my friends share my views, and I made that clear right at the top
of the page.

Snip - some chatter about the INN

I'm not going to discuss this with the likes of a troll like you.

Go back under the rock!

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:56:55 EDT 1997
Article: 78896 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: The sash my father wore!
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:38:11 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <33c9f5fe.4446249@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:78896

waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <5q9t0f$bei@portal.gmu.edu>, gdavis2@osf1.gmu.edu (Gareth G
>Davis) writes:
>
>>: Has anyone else noticed the fey profusion of exclamation points
>exercised
>>: by the kookier elements on either side (not to pick on Ray alone....I
>was
>>: also thinking of Conrad, Seamus, Nancy, et alia)?? There's a psyche
>>: doctorate in there somewhere.....
>>: Bill
>>
>>Maybe "Ray's" posts and Conrad's procession could meet in cyberspace
>>somewhere and beat each other to death before reach to SCI?
>
>I have a theory that they are splits off of the same personality. Did you
>ever notice that they never....and I mean never....exchange posts on the
>ng? Makes one wonder.....
>Bill

As usual, you are wrong.  No, Conrad and I are indeed different people, 
it is by sheer chance that we have not crossed swords on this group.

Ray.

 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:01 EDT 1997
Article: 79063 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:00:01 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <33d3c711.9561183@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>>rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>>
>>>I am not a NAZI!  If I was a Nazi, this is what I would be doing right
>>>now:
>
>ROTFLMAO
>
>What are you going to do now, Ray? Tell Mom? Stamp your jack-booted little
>feet? I bet no-one in the movement told you it wuold be this bad, did
>they..... 
>Bill

Oh well, I suppose I was asking too much expecting an INTELLIGENT response
to my post.  You know there are some serious points in there, it's a shame
people can't stop throwing mud for a moment, and read it properly and have
a think about things before they hit the reply key to fire another salvo
of ignorance in my direction.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:04 EDT 1997
Article: 79072 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:18:58 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 30
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tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

>In article <33d33015.4677270@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) wrote:
>
>> Tom, you're falling into the Gerard Cunningham style of posting, and just
>> ahead of Bill Boyle.  
>
>You've just associated me with my two heroes in s.c.i. The zealous anger of
>Bill...the cutting wit of Ger...to combine the two is my goal. Thanks for
>the compliment, Ray.

Well, Tom, you've certainly downgraded your level of debate to bill boyle's
level, although somethimes he says some interesting things too.

I think the problem both you and Bill share is that of inconsistancy,
one minute your able to argue quiet reasonable, then you fall
into mud-slinging sort of posts,  I had you earmarked as someone I could
debate because of your adult approach to debate, but unfortunately your
postings recently have been far below your usual standard as far as I
can tell.

Ray.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:07 EDT 1997
Article: 79075 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:19:10 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 163
Message-ID: <33d3c0e2.7978513@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:79075

"Keith Mills"  wrote:

>
>Ray Hourigan  wrote in article
><33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie>...
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> It's been some months now since I joined this newsgroup.  Over those
>> months, I've endured much more criticism than I did over all the time
>> I was involved with the "movement".
>
>Pray tell what "movement" was that?

The racist "movement".

>> I thought I was making progress at breaking the stereotype some of you
>> tried to cast me as, that is until I visited Gerard Cunningham's homepage
>> and read the piece he has about "fingal" posted there, right under a pic
>of
>> old Adolf himself.
>
>Well you should supply Old Gerry with a pic. I can turn it into a nice
>poster type picture like mine, if you so desire. (Not a swastika in
>sight!).

I would prefer if I was removed from his page altogether, but thanks for
the offer, I don't think I'll accept at this time.


>> 
>> I am not a NAZI!  If I was a Nazi, this is what I would be doing right
>> now:
>> 
>> 1. I would be on to Don Black, about restoring the Aryan Corps homepage
>>    he hosted for me.
>Quite an admission.

Not really, the AC page was there before I became the AC organizer, when
I quit the "movement" I requested he take it down and he did.

>> 2. I would be a regular contributer to the SF-Newsletter. 
>I think they already have enough fascists in S.F., don't you?

I meant I would be there, as opposed to posting here.

>> 3. I would be using an alias that can be obtained at stormfront to post.
>> 4. I would be promoting the National Alliance, and Stormfront webpages,
>>    not my own, and the INN page.
>> 5. I would be posting to "racist" newsgroups, not here.
>> 6. My webpage would contain blatent racist pro-hitler material.
>Instead of just containing Anti British propaganda you mean.

There is little material on my page that you could call anti-british.
The famine/holocaust story just happens to mention Britain, but Britain
of long ago.  

>> 7. I would never have insulted the people that the "movement" hold
>>    as sacred "leaders" unless I never intended going back to the
>>    "movement"
>> 8. Tallpaula posted my "resignation statement" here like it was some
>>    dark secret he dug up, but that same statement was posted to Usenet
>>    when I left.
>> 
>> Visit my webpage, and what do you find?  Many articles and graphics
>> aimed at an exclusively Irish readership.  Not a single reference to
>> Hitler, no pictures of the swastika adorn my website.  There are no
>> links to "movement" sites from my webpage.
>> 
>> Why is this?  Because I LEFT the "movement", I burned my bridges, I cut
>> all links, I quit!
>
>Can I buy your black shinny boots then. (My Emma Peel fetish is back!).

This was a serious post, I do wish people would treat it as such.

>> 
>> When I quit, I had several choices:
>> 
>> I could have based my webpage on a different interest, like my liking for
>> classical music, or my interest in astronomy. 
>
>Have you discovered what planet you're on yet?

I make serious points, and you make jokes of them. 

>> But I chose Irish politics,
>> because I like the challange of debate.  I set up my webpage to reflect
>> my new ideals, and began posting here.
>
>"My new ideals"... O.K. folks let's not have Aryan spremency, let's have a
>"united Ireland" instead, eh?

It's a shame you see it that way.

>> My core view is that Ireland's future must be secured, culturally, and 
>> ethnically, that's all.  Tell me I'm wrong?
>> 
>> Ok, so at the start, before I had my feet on the cyberground here, I
>posted
>> some articles that were wholly inappropriate, and for these I apologise.
>> I regret posting them, especially the "horst wessel" song lyrics on 
>> April 20.
>> 
>> Many months have now passed, but still the same old "nazi" mud is thrown
>> from time to time...
>
>Would "nazi mud" show on your nice brown short?

I don't wear a brown shirt, nor a blue one for that matter.


>> 
>> I already proved I'm no nazi.  I stand for many things that naziism does
>not:
>> 
>> 1. I'm a democrat, I will accept the majority vote, not impose my views
>on the
>>    majority.
>..yeah, right!!

You sound like you don't believe me, but read my posts, and see the truth.
I think your disbelief is rooted in your opposition to my view on a
United Ireland.

>
>
>> So I ask you give me a break on this nazi shit, I am an Irish
>Nationalist,
>> like many of you are, and that is all, what was in the past, is exactly
>> that, in the past, I made the mistake of joining the "movement", and when
>> I got out I gave my reasons for doing so.  It is a hate filled
>organization
>> with members that fantasize about bringing a nuclear holocaust about to
>stop
>> the "evil jews" from imposing the "Jew World order", I could never agree
>> with that because I do not support violence.
>>  
>> Anyway, I will end this article by requesting publically to Gerard
>Cunningham
>> that he remove the hitler picture from above my "profile" on his webpage.
>> He is misrepresenting what I stand for, as is obvious to anyone reading
>> my posts.  

>....and can someone give him back his crayons, while they're at it.

Is this addressed to me or Gerry?

>Gerry..I propose Ray's posting as the "posting of the year". Laugh...my
>knickers won't be dry for a week.
>
>Keith

I make an honest attempt to put the past behind me, and you mock it,
I'm not angry with you, I pity you.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:13 EDT 1997
Article: 79132 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:58:45 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <33d36e97.1135742@news.iol.ie>
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See@my.signature (Stephen Littley) wrote:

Snip
>>>What a good idea!
>>>
>>>I mean, I'm sure none of us are sad enough to spend an hour or two
>>>clicking the "reload" button and voting again and again...
>>>
>>>Ozy
>>
>>Ah, poor Ozy is jealous 'cause I thought of the idea first. 
>>UCC 0 Ray 1 :-)
>
>
>Ozy has a valid point.  It's not a fair and accurate method of
>measuring opinion given the ease with which you can register
>additional votes simply by reloading.
>
>It sounded like a nice idea to start with though.
>
>Steve

The votes are not anonymous, they arrive to me with full headers,
as if the person had sent an email.  I can easily spot repeated
voting attempts.   This is why I cannot accept votes from anonymous
remailers or such, unless I know the person behind it.

If I got 20 votes from anonymous@anonymous.com, I wouldn't know
if they were tactical voting, several different posters using
the same remailer, or what.

Already, one guy posted 7 votes to me at once.  I know he didn't mean
it because he told me so, and I had guessed as much anyway.  The
interface does not tell you if your vote is sent.  I'm looking
into another way of setting up the opinion poll page so as to allow
comments as well, and for the sender to be more sure that his vote has
been sent.

It's been only two days, I will imporve the system, hopefully it will
be better intime for the next opinion poll posting.

I'm glad you like the idea, I just hope I can make it workable.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:16 EDT 1997
Article: 79133 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!news.agtac.net!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Drumcree III = IRA Recruiting Tool
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:58:40 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <33d36d96.878967@news.iol.ie>
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John Rogers  wrote:

Snip - discussion about the Koran.

>> I'm a Christian, I've read material about the Koran from "movement" sites
>> and CI preachers.  I thought they were perhaps a little biast because of
>> their backgrounds, but now I've read some replies to the thread about
>> that book, from people who know about it, and who have no axe to grind
>> against it, but yet they condemn it.  They are confirming for me that
>> what I read before is valid, and I will not subject myself to reading
>> a load of Unchristian pagan crap.
>> 
>> Ray.
>> 
>
>Absolutely. You don't like it because you haven't tried it.

Well, John, I have't tried a lot things, and still don't like them.
I've never been to prison, taken drugs, to name but two.  I don't think
you have to try everything before deciding if it's for you.  People
that step infront of trains, can probably write lovely poetry about
the experience before they do it, but I still wouldn't do it.

Do you get me?

Ray.
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:19 EDT 1997
Article: 79137 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!news.agtac.net!crash.videotron.ab.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:58:53 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <33d33072.4770368@news.iol.ie>
References: <01bc8ff7$9778c620$afccedcc@ibm-compatible> <01bc9033$302cb760$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ca6fd0.2030643@news.iol.ie> <01bc90f9$bbe2f140$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cba3f1.2726694@news.iol.ie> <01bc91c6$eb17f820$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ccd963.1879590@news.iol.ie> <01bc9291$5aa04f60$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie> <5qmfos$o5a$9@News.Dal.Ca> <33cf5539.3696028@news.iol.ie> <5qroao$dvo$4@News.Dal.Ca> <33d1eb6d.7719674@news.iol.ie> <5qunol$nlq$4@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>
>: Yes, but when have we ever heard the so called English-Americans, if they
>: exist at all, ever condemn the Loyalist terrorist groups?
>
>
>     Have you spotted any on this newsgroup cheering on the UVF?  If not,
>there's your answer -- generally they don't give a damn about NI either
>way.
>
No, I can't say that I've ever seen a post in support of the UVF.

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:22 EDT 1997
Article: 79149 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:08:01 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 130
Message-ID: <33d4c3d2.1825243@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie> <01bc95de$66235080$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33d41707.11392674@news.wwa.com>
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re@d.my.sig (Gerard Cunningham) wrote:

>Did anyone else read the title of this thread and think of Nixon
>saying "I am not a crook"?
>

Well, Ger, that is how you start this, it's doesn't bode well for
the rest of this article.

For the sake of spacesaving, I've snipped this a lot, including the
"slagging" bits, I respond to the serious bits.

Snip

>>> I thought I was making progress at breaking the stereotype some of you
>>> tried to cast me as, that is until I visited Gerard Cunningham's homepage
>>> and read the piece he has about "fingal" posted there, right under a pic
>>of
>>> old Adolf himself.
>
>Still available for your viewing pleasure at
>http://shoga.wwa.com/~abardubh/troll.html#fingal 

Yes, so it is.  Says more about your character than mine though.

>>
>>Well you should supply Old Gerry with a pic. I can turn it into a nice
>>poster type picture like mine, if you so desire. (Not a swastika in
>>sight!).
>
>Maybe we should start a competition for an alternative 'fingal icon'
>in case Ray refuses your kind offer.  I can think of a few
>possibilities myself.  
>Anyone know where I can get a picture of Kenneth Mars from 'The
>Producers'?  Sums up Ray, I think, as he's more of a joke in these
>parts than a hitler..
>Or maybe a gif of Donald Duck? Quack Quack Quack.

How about you try someting really radical and get rid of it completely!
That section of your webpage is very fascist in it's own way, but I
bet you're too stupid to see this.

>I take it Ray would have had no objection if I said he *was* a nazi,
>rather than is a nazi?  BTW, I called him a fascist, not a nazi.
>Maybe I should have said racist ...oops, I mean racialist, after all,
>he admitted, or rather, declared quite proudly, that he was a one
>fairly recently.  Or is that 'all behind me now' as well?

How about you write nothing, and let other people come to their own
conclusions about my viewpoint.


>>
>>> 2. I would be a regular contributer to the SF-Newsletter. 
>>I think they already have enough fascists in S.F., don't you?
>
>I knew Norn Iron would work it's way in here somehow. :)

That should be StormFront, not Sinn Fein as some people wrongly assumed.

>>
>>> 3. I would be using an alias that can be obtained at stormfront to post.
>
>You mean, like you did a few months ago with fingal@alias.nym.net ?

Nym.alias.net has nothing to do with StormFront.

>>> 8. Tallpaula posted my "resignation statement" here like it was some
>>>    dark secret he dug up, but that same statement was posted to Usenet
>>>    when I left.
>
>And can be viewed at Nizkor by clicking on the word "Fingal" above the
>by now infamous hitler pic on my page.  :)

Yeah, you're a real lackey for Nizkor aren't you?  What are you after a
merit badge from the Polticially Correct Moron society?

>>> But I chose Irish politics,
>>> because I like the challange of debate. 
>
>Pity you're so poor at it.

No, I'm not poor at it at all, for one reason, that everytime I make a good
point that people like you can't counter, the old "nazi" mud starts to fly
again to distract people from the issue at hand.

>>> My core view is that Ireland's future must be secured, culturally, and 
>>> ethnically, that's all.  Tell me I'm wrong?

I noticed that everybody that responded has ignored the above sentence.
Why don't you address this one Ger?


>>> Many months have now passed, but still the same old "nazi" mud is thrown
>>> from time to time...
>
>Keeps sticking too.  Curious, that...

Yeah, if you fire enough mud, some is bound to stick, shame that it's your
only tactic that works against my arguments.  


>>> Anyway, I will end this article by requesting publically to Gerard
>>Cunningham
>>> that he remove the hitler picture from above my "profile" on his webpage.
>
>I will consider it, but I have to say, no-one has responded in support
>of you in this post.  It would seem that those who are familiar with
>your views agree with my characterization.

Hmmm... those words could have been spoken by Hitler about the jews. 
Are you so blind that you cannot see your own fascist actions?


>>> He is misrepresenting what I stand for, as is obvious to anyone reading
>>> my posts.  
>
>As I said, no-one else on this thread seems to agree...

So what's next, extermination?  Herr Cunningham?

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:25 EDT 1997
Article: 79163 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!news.agtac.net!dragon.sk.sympatico.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!europa.clark.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:54:24 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <33d4f433.249292@news.iol.ie>
References: <01bc8ff7$9778c620$afccedcc@ibm-compatible> <01bc9033$302cb760$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ca6fd0.2030643@news.iol.ie> <01bc90f9$bbe2f140$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cba3f1.2726694@news.iol.ie> <01bc91c6$eb17f820$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ccd963.1879590@news.iol.ie> <01bc9291$5aa04f60$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie>  <33cf5430.3431685@news.iol.ie>  <33d0a57f.5024724@news.iol.ie> <33D4C1EB.5534@tcd.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:79163

Alexander Simpson  wrote:

>Ray Hourigan wrote:
>>
>  
> 
>> What the loyalist's achived through strikes and such is not really 
>> that important when we're talking abour re-uniting Ireland. 
>
>  Why? Surely if Loyalism has created civil unrest in the past 
>  to register their disatisfaction, a policy which undeniably
>  succeeded, then it would appear to be a definite factor when 
>  considering the probability of a fully cohesive United Ireland
>  being realised. 

Sure, they'll try it, but it will fail.  
  
>> Their ability to create and sustain a terror campaign is whats at 
>> issue here.  Even though they have been able to launch attacks in 
>> the past, they do not have the infastructure or determination or 
>> numbers or weapons to launch a sustainted campaign.
>
>  Ahem, you're wrong on several counts here. Loyalism possesses a
>  cohesive command structure similar to the IRA's, but frequently 
>  is subject to more infighting. Concerning determination, they 
>  certainly would appear to have that in spades. Prior to the 
>  original IRA's "complete cessation" in 1994, between '93 - '94 
>  Loyalist paramillitaries were responsible for more murders than 
>  the IRA or INLA.

All agreed.  However, the murders they committed were almost exclusively
with small arms, in cowardly attacks on innocent civilians.  Their attempts
to attack the Irish army, who are amongst the best trained in the world
despite their size, would be a different prospect.

>  The combined size of Loyalist paramillitaries 
>  whether in the UDA, UVF or UFF outnumber Republican paramillitaries
>  significantly in terms of numerical manpower.

Probably true, seeing as there are more groups.  But the quality of
leadership is not there.

> As a consequence
>  of the "sustained" Loyalist ceasfire, Loyalist paramillitaries 
>  have attained a veritable arsenal of weaponry, including, rather 
>  worryingly, semtex. That's what really worries me.

They have not had success with this before, their "tech" level is
below that of the IRA without doubt.  although recently, they have
had some success with under car bombs.

>  Despite the 
>  continuous bomb attacks on London and other British cities by the
>  IRA which resulted in carnage, Britain has developed tight security
>  procedures and expertise in defusing and preventing terrorist
>  attacks. Ireland has absolutely nothing like that on the same 
>  scale; Dublin is wide open.

I think the Irish troops do a good job up and around the border.  Despite
several threats, no major attack have occurred.  However, security can
never be strong enough, and we must be watchfull.
 
>>Didn't HMG recently hand over the destiny of around 6 million people
>>to a extreme communist state with a terrible human rights record.  
>>Alright so Britain had no choice, it's lease was up, but it still 
>>sacrificed the people there.
>
> You're comparing Northern Ireland with Hong Kong? I fail to see
> a connection between the two on a political, economic, social
> or legal level. They are totally different. Any talk of Britain 
> "sacrificing" the Chinese back to China seems a little harsh 
> given that it was a fait accompli; Britain had no choice. 

About 2 years ago, there were hints that the British Govt. were
preparing to take in up to 2 million Chinese from Hong Kong.
Considering they held British passports, this was not a surprise,
the surprise was they did not, they let them stay.

Anyway, my point is that if they can do this to the "British
Chinese" the Unionist and Orange order guys are not sitting as
safe as they were.

> Whereas Britain desperately wants rid of Northern Ireland in its
> present form. The reason why the current ceasefire is 90% due to 
> the British Government is because they can play an active role 
> in the North; they are not subject to a fait accompli, and are
> engaging themselves fully in attempting to realise an inclusive
> settlement.

Let's hope that the Unionists, Nationalists and the rest finally
get down to peace talks, and actually find out from each other
what their actual aims are - from the horses mouth, not from the
media or propaganda.  I think it is very childish of the Unionists
to walk out, when the Sinn Fein people walk in, there can never be
progress that way.  And if SF and the Govt get to talking, the
Unionists will waffle on about deals done behind their backs!
 
Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:28 EDT 1997
Article: 79173 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:35 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <33d76ece.2333257@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d32a01.3121035@news.iol.ie> <33d3c346.8590782@news.iol.ie>  <33d4c767.2742645@news.iol.ie> <5r64go$5sn$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
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ama25@namaste.cc.columbia.edu (Anthony M Annett) wrote:

>In article <33d4c767.2742645@news.iol.ie>,
>Ray Hourigan  wrote:
>>tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <33d3c346.8590782@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>>>Hourigan) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> You'd be surprised Jill, my beginnings in politics was with the lefties.
>>>
>>>Which group?
>>
>>Well, Tom, I'd rather not go into it on an open newsgroup.  Suffice to
>>say it was a militant leftist group.  I was not a member, but I
>>attended their meetings and other stuff.
>>
>Mussolini also began life as a hard-core socialist.
>There's nothing surprising about it: socialists and fascists tend to
>meet up with each other along the ideological circle.

My point is that my political ideals are not constricted to one ideology.
I draw on socalism, fascism and humanism, etc.  I blend these ideas into
what I think is the best goal that I can aim for.

For instance, I believe in a "classless Society", something alien to many
fascists.

I believe in wiping third world death off the slate, and giving the countries
a chance to build up it's economy with the money it saves from not paying#
back these monies.  Again fascist ideals would be against this.

I believe in making a strong police force, with greater powers of arrest,
harsher jail sentences in jails that are geared towards punishment not
rehabilitation, a fascist idea?  Communist?

I believe in the preservation of the Ireland and the Irish as a race, a 
culture, does this make me a fascist?  Communist?  

I am not going to allow people to label me this or that....

To paraphrase a certain lawyer, "if the label don't fit, you must acquit!"


Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:36 EDT 1997
Article: 79272 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:33 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <33d76d39.1928333@news.iol.ie>
References: <33c22f8a.17547937@news.axion.bt.co.uk> <5pvdl7$q5s@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <33c392f1.22021963@news.axion.bt.co.uk>  <5q4s9j$4js@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <33C90098.986318E8@btinternet.com> <5qcmld$ar3@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <5qfaj7$dnd@madge2.dev.madge.com> <33ccaa52.96409954@bhars12c> <33CFDC4D.25E7@glass.com> <521bd5ab47@fano.demon.co.uk> <33d2da7e.54983473@news.wwa.com> <33d3417a.37735603@betanews.compulink.co.uk> <33d259f9.720810@news.wwa.com> <33d3343f.5743387@news.iol.ie> <33D6648A.46E3@tcd.ie>
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Alexander Simpson  wrote:

>Ray Hourigan wrote:
>> 
>> The Irish already pay enough tax, why should they subsidise spongers
>> from foreign countries who have come here for no good reason only
>> to live off us like leaches?
>
>  Presumably because the majority of immigrants are genuine 
>  refugees, and the last time we classified as refugees was over
>  seventy years ago. Still in that time we have been able to 
>  live off America, Britain, Australia, Germany and myriad other
>  developed countries like leeches, sponging off the benevolent
>  welfare systems in those countries instead of being deported 
>  back to Ireland, like some draconian facists in certain Nationalist
>  Networks demand.

My My, hold on there! They are NOT genuine refugees! they simply arrive,
ask for asylum, and are allowed to stay here at the taxpayers expense
while their case is reviewed.

We're not talking about the last 70 years, we're talking about now.
The Irish that have left our shores in recent years, have been for
the most part well educated, and hardworking people.  

If the Immigrants are proved to be political refugees, who's life in
endangered, then they must be allowed to stay, if they are proved
to be spongers, they must be sent home.

>  Ireland is mature enough, sophisticated enough and growing fast 
>  enough to offer succour to refugees. It would be immoral and 
>  hypocritical to turn such refugees away, especially given 
>  our devout Christianity. 

It's one thing offering assistance to a genuine refugee, it's another
allowing people to suck the country dry.  These spongers that come
here for the good life don't care about Christian values, they
care abour finding a country stupid enough to put they up when
others will see through their schemes and send them back where they
belong.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:39 EDT 1997
Article: 79275 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!gmv.es!btnet-feed3!unlisys!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:03:25 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <33d88d01.4647535@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d4bd06.85010@news.iol.ie> <19970722210400.RAA29255@ladder01.news.aol.com> <33d5e6bc.1126897@news.iol.ie> <5r6hkr$ntl$2@News.Dal.Ca> <33d765ed.59404@news.iol.ie> <5r9vlv$8a3$4@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>
>: >     Were the Jews behind this one too?     
>: >
>: Jaysus Niel, you're starting to see jews behind everything! Better be careful
>: before you get labeled a jew hating nazi by some less than tolerant people
>: here in this newsgroup. :-)
>
>
>     Please answer my question, Ray -- you said "we both know why American
>lives were sacrificed."  Well, I for one don't know this mysterious hidden
>reason.  So why were they sacrificed?
>

Well, Neil, since you won't let it lie, I'll answer your question.

It was to show the world that America still has the military power to
attack any country it suddenly takes a dislike to.  This is when it's
not busy attacking it's own citizens (Waco).

And I bet you thought I'd say "Jews" in ther answer, wrong!  Deduct a point
for losing the game!

BTW, I'm not anti-American, but the Government and System sure suck! - as they
say.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:42 EDT 1997
Article: 79276 of soc.culture.irish
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:04:05 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <33d89153.5754067@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:79276

tedodono@ix.netcom.com (Ted O'Donovan) wrote:

Big snip - discussion about loyalist bombs.

>>>I doubt if they'd try it.
>>
>>They threathened to if the silly boys in orange didn't get to march where
>>they liked.  It was reported that they (LVF I think) had planted 10 bombs
>>in Dublin, Cork and Galway.  when the march was pushed through the said that
>>6 of the devices had been taken away or words to that effect, meaning that
>>4 of them were still in place.  All this may have been a bluff, but security
>>was tightened on the border over it.
>
>This would be the most stupid thing for the LVF or any other
>"Loyalist" organization to pull.  If Loyalist bombs went off in the
>ROI, it would bring in support(financial or otherwise) for the IRA,
>that doesn't exist today in the ROI.

Agreed.  It would be a propaganda victory for the IRA, it would do them
no harm, and the world of good.

>In fact, if some bombs did go
>off, the ROI should verify that it was indeed the Loyalists who
>committed the act(s).  It could be the IRA pretending that it was a
>Loyalist act, in order to drum up support and engage the ROI
>population more actively in the NI situation.  On the other hand, the
>LVF might be dumb enough to do it - extremists rarely anticipate the
>long term consequences of their actions. 
>
>Ted.  
>
Ted, you're second guessing yourself, but you do reflect the sort of
confusion that would prevail if a bombs does explode here.

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:48 EDT 1997
Article: 79342 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:28 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 241
Message-ID: <33d765f0.62995@news.iol.ie>
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Alexander Simpson  wrote:

>Ray Hourigan wrote:
>> 
>> Alexander Simpson  wrote:
>> >
>> >  Why? Surely if Loyalism has created civil unrest in the past
>> >  to register their disatisfaction, a policy which undeniably
>> >  succeeded, then it would appear to be a definite factor when
>> >  considering the probability of a fully cohesive United Ireland
>> >  being realised.
>> 
>> Sure, they'll try it, but it will fail.
>
>	 I wish I shared your confidence. Their is no reason to suggest
>     that were Loyalists to use such tactics they would fail in 
>     fulfilling a political objective.

They are as likely to fail as succeed.


> Given that it is extremely 
>     unlikely that a United Ireland would be achieved without 
>     considerable concessions, or sweeteners, being granted to
>     the British fringe in the six counties, it is impossible to
>     conceive that such concessions would not be employed by 
>     Loyalists to attain political demands.

Yeah, I suppose there will be sweeteners, but it must be remembered
that these sweeteners will have to be agreeable to the Irish Government
as well the the Nationalist community.

>> All agreed.  However, the murders they committed were almost exclusively
>> with small arms, in cowardly attacks on innocent civilians.  Their attempts
>> to attack the Irish army, who are amongst the best trained in the world
>> despite their size, would be a different prospect.
>
>	 I agree on everything in the above paragraph with the exception
>     of the last sentence. The Irish Army, apart from fulfilling
>     an important peacekeeping role and other vital millitary 
>     duties, such as performing as extras in Braveheart, is very
>     poorly trained in terms of anti-terrorism.

Ok, so most of their training is geared around fighting a proper
military army, using conventional warfare.  But I think they could
quickly adapt.  

> The bomb-squad 
>     is outdated and small and relatively inexperienced.

I don't think they are outdated, perhaps small.  However in the few
instances that they have had to be called, they seemed confident
enough to handle the situation themselves without calling in outside
assistance.

> I don't 
>     think that it is the Irish Army that foils the objectives
>     of Loyalist paramillitaries, but the political disagreement
>     between Loyalist factions.

So long as any murderous plans are foiled, does it matter so much anyway.

> In many ways modern day Loyalist
>     paramillitary structure closely resembles the IRA in the 
>     late 1960s and early 1970s. It was internment and the 
>     experience of the British Army that formed the dynamo for the
>     IRA current level of terrorist expertise. As the Loyalists
>     don't face that in the Irish Army, there is little incentive
>     to develop technically.

That's a lame excuse for loyalist terror.

>> 
>> Probably true, seeing as there are more groups.  But the quality of
>> leadership is not there.
>
>	 I would agree that it is less focused, but the leadership 
>     strategy is different between the IRA and Loyalist 
>     paramillitaries. The IRA are commited to ending British rule
>     in Ireland by terrorist activity, and bomb London and other
>     British cities to force the agenda in British politics. 
>     Loyalists are commited to preserving the British Union, which
>     is already in existence. Apart from retaliating against any
>     Republican atrocity in a Protestant or Loyalist area, it is 
>     difficult to see what political gain would be achieved by 
>     planting bombs in the Republic.

The old they're not terrorists, they are reactionaries, well I don't
swallow that.  The loyalists target civilians, more interested in
their religion than politics.  Recently, we've seen the brave
loyalist terrorists bravely sneak into a house and shoot a woman
while she slept!  I mean they didn't even think of their own
safety, she could have screamed, and hurted their little ears,
turned on a light and hurted their little eyes, god bless 'em.

They don't plant bombs because they don't have the brain power,
another recent incident proves this yet again, when a loyalist
terrorist blew himself up with a pipe bomb.

> The leadership strategy
>     is different, and is debatable whether one is of any greater
>     "quality" than the other.

I'm not talking "quality", I'm talking competence.

>     Loyalists suffer from greater 
>     factions and in-fighting, but that is understandable given 
>     the number of Loyalist terrorist groups. Republican violence
>     does not suffer anything like the same problem.

But it has in the past.  At any rate, for whatever reason, the loyalists
cannot terrorise us with bombs, and for that we should be thankful.

>> They have not had success with this before, their "tech" level is
>> below that of the IRA without doubt.  although recently, they have
>> had some success with under car bombs.
>
>     Unfortunately, Loyalist "tech" levels are considerably higher
>     than they were at the end of '94. It is still below the IRA,
>     but when considering the capacity to kill and maim innocent
>     civilians, Loyalism presents a dangerous threat.

This all started because I said that loyalism didn't pose a great threath
when a United Ireland is created.  I still beleive this.  In South Africa,
the AFP, a white group opposed to the handover of power to the Blacks,
threatened to set off a thousand bombs in the event of such a handover.
The election came and went, the blacks were voted in, and we are still
waiting for the civil war and the 1000 bombs.  Their threats were empty,
so, I believe are loyalist threats.

>> I think the Irish troops do a good job up and around the border.  Despite
>> several threats, no major attack have occurred. 
>
>	 I don't know which border crossings you're familiar with.
>     The border checkpoint on the Irish side at Enniskillen is
>     unbelievably easy. We've been waved through unchecked each 
>     time. I think it owes more to the suspicion and thoroughness
>     on the British side that very little gets out, than the 
>     expertise of the Irish Army.

Was this recently?  I understand that security was stepped up when the
loyalists said they'd set off bombs if the parade wasn't forced through.

BTW, on a side note, they call themselves "loyalists", yet there is more
support for a United Ireland and "bring our troops home" in Britain.
Secondly, who are they loyal to?  The queen?  Do they think for a moment
that when they kill an innocent woman in a bed, that they queen of England
jumps for joy?

>> However, security can
>> never be strong enough, and we must be watchfull.
>
>	I couldn't agree with you more.

:-)
 
>> About 2 years ago, there were hints that the British Govt. were
>> preparing to take in up to 2 million Chinese from Hong Kong.
>> Considering they held British passports, this was not a surprise,
>> the surprise was they did not, they let them stay.
>
>	This is true, and it is also an absolute disgrace. But the 
>    legislation did not effect Chinese citizens already issued 
>    with British passports, those were irrevocable. The legislation
>    concerned whether all Chinese inhabitants of Hong Kong should
>    be issued full British passports and granted the right to 
>    reside in the United Kingdom. This was rejected and British
>    visitors passports were issued to those who applied for them 
>    in the former colony. These fell short of guaranteeing their
>    status as British passport holders, only permitting them to 
>    reside in Britain for a few months, and travel within the 
>    Commonwealth without formal visa requirements being necessary.
>    Personally, I disagree with the British action, principally
>    on moral grounds. However, I would hesitate before arguing 
>    that the British were guilty of "sacrificing" the Chinese
>    of Hong Kong to China.

Wait until the crackdown against democracy happens there, and it
will.  When the people are being killed for holding beliefs that
are not shared by the military, then we'll hear of the sacrifice
made by Britain.

>> Anyway, my point is that if they can do this to the "British
>> Chinese" the Unionist and Orange order guys are not sitting as
>> safe as they were.
>
>    Well, the Unionists are a little safer, considering that they
>    enjoy participation in Westminster, something never enjoyed 
>    in Hong Kong. Unionists are also a considerable force in the 
>    House of Lords, but that could change given current Labour 
>    plans for the position of hereditary peers in the Upper House.

If there is a Upper House, Looney Labour want to scrap it, don't know
if Blair will though, he's abondened every socialist principle there
is in his grab for power, when you compare him and Major, Blair looks
and acts the more right-wing radical!

The Unionists however, have nothing like the danger of a United Ireland
that the Hong Kong people have with China.

>> Let's hope that the Unionists, Nationalists and the rest finally
>> get down to peace talks, and actually find out from each other
>> what their actual aims are - from the horses mouth, not from the
>> media or propaganda.  I think it is very childish of the Unionists
>> to walk out, when the Sinn Fein people walk in, there can never be
>> progress that way.  And if SF and the Govt get to talking, the
>> Unionists will waffle on about deals done behind their backs!
>
>	Sadly, you're analysis is very accurate but I'm extremely
>    pessimistic that Unionists will engage in open frank discussion.
>    They are unbelievably childish, as you say, but it is a tactic
>    that works for them. The Union cannot be altered if the 
>    Unionists refuse to play ball, and they would apparently rather
>    appear childish than enter any possible discussions that would
>    lead to an alteration in the North's constitutional position 
>    within the UK. Trimble would never want to go down in posterity
>    as the leader who "sold out" his own electorate. Dismally 
>    pathetic really, especially coming from apparently intelligent
>    individuals.

I agree with you completely.  I think they are adopting the wrong tactic
though, it's much easier to influence the discussion from the inside
than outside shouting in.  If the Unionists feel that their position
is defensible, and that the status of NI will only change if the majority
of people in Ulster want it, then there is no reason for the Unionists
not to take part. 

Now that the Unionists have defeated the plan put forward by the British
and Irish Governments, there will have to be a new plan drawn up soon.

Perhaps it's time the Irish and British Governments had talks without
worrying abour the Unionists protests.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:51 EDT 1997
Article: 79348 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:54:37 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 63
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"JC"  wrote:

>Alexander Simpson  wrote in article
><33D6648A.46E3@tcd.ie>...
>> Ray Hourigan wrote:
>> > 
>> > The Irish already pay enough tax, why should they subsidise spongers
>> > from foreign countries who have come here for no good reason only
>> > to live off us like leaches?
>> 
>>   Presumably because the majority of immigrants are genuine 
>>   refugees, and the last time we classified as refugees was over
>>   seventy years ago. Still in that time we have been able to 
>>   live off America, Britain, Australia, Germany and myriad other
>>   developed countries like leeches, sponging off the benevolent
>>   welfare systems in those countries
>
>Ireland is dealing with a problem that it's never experienced before, the
>cost of prosperity is responsibility to those less fortunate than
>ourselves.

Ha! That is a sick joke!  Ireland has absolutely no responsibility
towards these scroungers.  England, has some because many of the scroungers
come from countries they used to own, as does France.  Ireland owes these
scroungers nothing but directions to the boat home!

>Ireland better learn this fast because it's already damaging their
>international reputation.

Do you suppose that we'll get international acclaim when we are so overrun
with immigrants, that the taxpayer can't affort anymore, and our country
goes into recession again!  Do you think they'll say "Ireland is shit poor
now, but god bless, em, the've been blessed with immigrants!"

>If all other countries of the world adopted this argument then deported
>their Irish immigrants

We're not talking about legal immigrants, we're talking abour ILLEGAL
immigrants, BIG difference.

>the population of the ROI would double overnight.
>The extra taxes required to set up the infrastructure to support such a
>sudden and massive increase in population would be something to complain
>about.

And you don't think the "sudden and massive increase in population" from
illegal immigrants here is something to complain about?  You must
realise that Ireland is a small country, a small economy, it may be
strong now, thanks to funding from the EU, but this does not mean that
it's okay to leave in illegal immigrants to sponge off us just to please
some international reptuation.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's discouraging to think how many people are shocked by
honesty and how few by deceit. - Coward, Noel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
 I.N.N.  homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:57:55 EDT 1997
Article: 79361 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:03:22 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <33d88c05.4395322@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>>>     However, you forget that they did regain their access to Kuwaiti
>oil.
>>
>>
>>What little there was of it.  Of course they did reinstall the
>dictatorial
>>royal family too.
>
>Rather then continuing to acquaint us with your breathtaking lack of
>knowledge, why don't you consult a decent library. You will find that
>Kuwait has some of the largest reserves in the world.
>Bill

Oh, right, and why don't you check about the fact Kuwait was being liberated
and restored to Iraq.  This was a totally internal Arab problem, other Arab
countries could see this, but no, America had to stick it's nose where it
wasn't wanted.

Notice too the difference between the US Somalia relief effort and the
massed invasion of Iraq soil.  The US sure has it's priorities mixed up.
For oil it will risk tens of thousands of US troops, for people, it will
risk a few, and when one or two gets killed, - GET 'EM OUT!

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
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From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:01 EDT 1997
Article: 79408 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Row sparks off RACE RIOT!
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:00:20 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 43
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Well, well, well,

They said it would never happen here, when I suggested otherwise
I was mocked and jeered, but just like I predicted, Ireland
has had it's first major race riot - and there wasn't an Irish
man involved!

According to Thrusday's Irish Mirror:

A RIOT broke out yesterday between African and Romanian refugees
waiting to collect social welfare payments.

More than 30 youths fought in a row over queue jumpers.  Other yobs
threw bricks and stones.

Gardai from south Dublin were called in to break up the trouble in
the grounds of St. James Hospital.

A passer-by said: "All hell broke loose.  They were fighthing and hopping
all over my car."

Five thousand asylum seekers flood into Ireland each year - a 5,000 per
cent increase since 1993.

-Irish Mirror, Thrusday 24 July 1997, page 9.

Rather than comment, I'll just quote a famous speech:

With foreboding, like the Roman, I seem to see the 'River Tiber foaming
with blood' -  Enoch Powell 20 April 1968

Is this the first of many such riots, and how long will it be before the
Government pull a finger out and take action to prevent this, or, like
everthing else, do we have to see somebody killed first?

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:03 EDT 1997
Article: 79416 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Brendan Smith (12 years in jail).
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:16:56 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 105
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"Keith Mills"  wrote:

>Latest news from aertel
>
> Paedophile Brendan Smyth has been      
> sentenced to 12 years in jail at the   
> Circuit Criminal Court after pleading  
> guilty this week to 74 charges of      
> indecent & sexual assaults on children.
>                                        
Snip

>BARNARDOS WELCOMES 
>SMYTH SENTENCE 
>
>
> Fr Smyth's sentence has been welcomed  
> by Barnardos, the child care agency,   
> who say it reflects the seriousness of 
> his offences.                          
>                                        
> The Editor of the Irish Social Worker, 
> Kieran McGrath, also said he feels that
> Brendan Smyth's punishment fits the    
> crime.                                 
>                                        
> He described this trial as a watershed 
> case.    
>
>
>
>
>My thoughts:
>Having read some of the court reports on this case during the past week, I
>have to say that I hope that this man is NEVER allowed to walk the streets
>of Ireland again.

Yup, he should be executed for his crime.  12 years for what he's done
is a sick joke.  

>I note with interest a similar case in the U.S. (Texas),
>where the Catholic Church has had to pay out millions of dollars to the
>victims of child abuse. In Ireland hardly a week goes by with some member
>of the Catholic church being brought before the counts on abuse charges.

Seems that way.

>There is a litany of abuse of minors by priests, brothers and nuns. Surely
>we should follow the American example and award damages to the victims.

I think execution for child abuse is what's needed. There is no knowing to
the damage he (Smith) has infliced upon the young children in his 'care'.
no anount of money would compensate for that.  Knowing that the abuser was
dead and that there was no possibility of his ever touching another child
would go half way towards the healing process.

> The
>Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest organisations in the World, and
>could well afford to pay. In Ireland, they are one of the largest property
>owners in the state, and their continued dominance of education is mainly
>the result of them owning so much school property and land. If they were
>forced to sell this to pay the fines, then we could finally have the proper
>independence our educational system needs,

The problem with the Church as I see it is, that once a priest is discovered
as an abuser, he's moved to a new place to go on abusing, there is an attempt
to cover the priest up.  If the Catholic Church is to regain it's
respectability, it must immediately, upon discovery of an abuser in it's ranks,
call in the police, disown him as a priest and seek to ensure he never preaches
or has contact in his capacity as a priest ever again.  

When the Church covers up these sick crimes against the innocent, it makes
the whole church look bad.

I don't think though that we can blame the whole church for the few (one is
too many) abusers within it.  There are probably thousands of priests who
are sickened to the stomach with the actics of this Smith, and how he has
cast the "whole lot of 'em" in a bad light.

>Finally, there is a lot of talk about the influence that internet has on
>corrupting the World's youth. It would have to do a lot of damage to ever
>approach the damage done by the Catholic church.

You mean by the small number of bad apples in the church.

>If governments are
>interested in protecting their youth, may the acces they should be denying
>them is to priests and not the internet. A ban on all minors entering any
>church etc. might be a start. 

Keith, I must disagree, that would be punishing the innocent many for the
crime of the few.  

The Chruch need to rethink it's policy of hiding these perverted sickos,
no doubt about that, and convicted child molesters should be executed to
prevent any possibility of future abuse by that man/woman.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:07 EDT 1997
Article: 79441 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:25:49 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 43
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stockton@ohsu.edu (Tanya White Cloud) wrote:

>
>
>Ray -
>
>I am always interested in "Christians" who denigrate the works/beliefs of 
>other faiths.  My only question is "How did you form your opinion of Islam 
>and its many intricacies?  Have you read the Quran?  Have you 
>studied with Islamic teachers?  Did you know that certain Muslim sects believe 
>that Moses and Jesus were prophets and that Jews and Christians 
>are people "of the Book" and believe that they are the foundation 
>of their faith?
>     I was raised as a Jew and had alot of anti-Islam stuff thrown at me too, 
>until I worked for a devout Islamic doctor and learned their 
>truths from he and his family.  Maybe you should study more before 
>you go blasting peoples faiths.  Just because they are different 
>than yours, doesn't make them wrong.  There are many paths to the 
>Creator!
>
>TWC

This whole article sounds suspiciously like a troll.  First the name,
sounds like an American Indian.  Second you say you were raised as
a jew, and had lots of anti-islam stuff thrown at you, yet soon you
admit accepting the Koran "learned their truths".  

I assume from this that you rejected the Torah?  And what did you
find in the Koran that wasn't in the Torah?

I think you are mixed up enough already without my adding to it.

Regards,

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:10 EDT 1997
Article: 79446 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:03:43 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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g.griffin@no.spam.btinternet.com (George Griffin) wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:28 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>
>}Alexander Simpson  wrote:
>}
>}>Ray Hourigan wrote:
>}>> 
>}>> Alexander Simpson  wrote:
>}>> >
>
>}>	 I agree on everything in the above paragraph with the exception
>}>     of the last sentence. The Irish Army, apart from fulfilling
>}>     an important peacekeeping role and other vital millitary 
>}>     duties, such as performing as extras in Braveheart, is very
>}>     poorly trained in terms of anti-terrorism.
>}
>}Ok, so most of their training is geared around fighting a proper
>}military army, using conventional warfare.  But I think they could
>}quickly adapt.  
>}
>It took the BA about 10 years to fully adapt. Of cours teh Irish Army might
>learn from them and so become proficient more quickly. But you miss the point
>that the BA can only contain the IRA (albeit because of political constraints),
>so it is likely the Irish Army would be in a similar postion. 

There is one distinction, the IRA can and do operate in the South, they are
free to run across the border to escape capture, and the British army can't
(officially, but I did hear some disturbing stories) follow them south.

Now, in a United Ireland, there will be no border, for the Unionists to
run to, our troops will be on their streets maintaining order for a change.
This will limit extremely their ability to gather the necessary equipment
and manpower to launch anything like a big attack.  Of course they will
probably go for small fire bombs, and a campaign of interruption by hoaxing
bombs and so forth, but their ability to actually do something major is
very limited.

>}> The bomb-squad 
>}>     is outdated and small and relatively inexperienced.
>}
>}I don't think they are outdated, perhaps small.  However in the few
>}instances that they have had to be called, they seemed confident
>}enough to handle the situation themselves without calling in outside
>}assistance.
>}
>Again you make the mistake of allowing the bomb squad time to do its work. THe
>IRA does not give much warning for its bombs, loyalists are likely to follow
>that path.

But they didn't call on the British Bomb Disposal Experts for assistance
did they?  NO, they felt confident enough to handle the situation themselves.


>}> I don't 
>}>     think that it is the Irish Army that foils the objectives
>}>     of Loyalist paramillitaries, but the political disagreement
>}>     between Loyalist factions.
>}
>}So long as any murderous plans are foiled, does it matter so much anyway.
>}
>snip
>
>}The old they're not terrorists, they are reactionaries, well I don't
>}swallow that.  The loyalists target civilians, more interested in
>}their religion than politics. 
>
>To a large extent that has been true, though they've also targetted SF members.

SF members do distance themselves from the IRA, but being nationalist, are at
least more of a legit target then a woman asleep in her bed.

>The IRA targets members of the RUC, army etc. You have to expect the loyalists
>to start doing the same to the equivalent RoI groupings, which gives them easier
>identified targets (just as the IRA has). 

There will be trouble, no doubt, there are people in loyalism and Orangism that
would rather die than see a United Ireland come to be.  However, my claim is
that they neither have the manpower, the training or tactical training or
infastructure to carry out a *sustained* campaign.  I suspect that their
campaign would be contained within a month.

>snip
>
>}They don't plant bombs because they don't have the brain power,
>}another recent incident proves this yet again, when a loyalist
>}terrorist blew himself up with a pipe bomb.
>}
>Some news reports had it as an anti handling device. Which, if it was the case
>does not indicate they have no brain power. You are making a basic mistake of
>underestimating you opponent.

BUT it was *their own bomb*, if anybody knew about the the anti-handling device
then it should be the handler.  Even if the maker wasn't the man killed, since
makers are rarely planters, the handler would surely have been warned on the
best way to make the device safe to carry away or store.

>}> The leadership strategy
>}>     is different, and is debatable whether one is of any greater
>}>     "quality" than the other.
>}
>}I'm not talking "quality", I'm talking competence.
>}
>}>     Loyalists suffer from greater 
>}>     factions and in-fighting, but that is understandable given 
>}>     the number of Loyalist terrorist groups. Republican violence
>}>     does not suffer anything like the same problem.
>}
>}But it has in the past.  At any rate, for whatever reason, the loyalists
>}cannot terrorise us with bombs, and for that we should be thankful.
>}
>Do, because Dublin etc. are wide open to attacks.

Not since '74 was it, did the Loyalists manage to detonate a number big bombs
here, and then they had the help of the British Intelligence/ army to aid
the construction.  I dont' think they have progressed even to that point
since without aid, they are not inclined to to take any personal risks,
hense the soft targets they pick.  It's one thing sneaking into a room
to shoot a sleeping woman, it's quiet another to drive a bomb from Belfast
to Dublin, past security.  

>}>> They have not had success with this before, their "tech" level is
>}>> below that of the IRA without doubt.  although recently, they have
>}>> had some success with under car bombs.
>}>
>}>     Unfortunately, Loyalist "tech" levels are considerably higher
>}>     than they were at the end of '94. It is still below the IRA,
>}>     but when considering the capacity to kill and maim innocent
>}>     civilians, Loyalism presents a dangerous threat.
>}
>}This all started because I said that loyalism didn't pose a great threath
>}when a United Ireland is created.  I still beleive this.  In South Africa,
>}the AFP, a white group opposed to the handover of power to the Blacks,
>}threatened to set off a thousand bombs in the event of such a handover.
>}The election came and went, the blacks were voted in, and we are still
>}waiting for the civil war and the 1000 bombs.  Their threats were empty,
>}so, I believe are loyalist threats.
>}
>Hopefully the LVF does not prove you wrong.

I agree to that, I don't want to be proved wrong, I hope I'm right, I get
no joy from this hope, I just hope we never find out if I'm wrong or right.


>
>
>}>> I think the Irish troops do a good job up and around the border.  Despite
>}>> several threats, no major attack have occurred. 
>}>
>}>	 I don't know which border crossings you're familiar with.
>}>     The border checkpoint on the Irish side at Enniskillen is
>}>     unbelievably easy. We've been waved through unchecked each 
>}>     time. I think it owes more to the suspicion and thoroughness
>}>     on the British side that very little gets out, than the 
>}>     expertise of the Irish Army.
>}
>}Was this recently?  I understand that security was stepped up when the
>}loyalists said they'd set off bombs if the parade wasn't forced through.
>}
>By which point the explosives were alrady (alledgedly) in the RoI. 

As you said alledgedly, we haven't found any of them, and none were detonated,
so we don't know, let's hope it was a bluff.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:13 EDT 1997
Article: 79450 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Soc Culture Irish Opinion Poll - Results.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:44:59 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 72
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References: <33d0afd9.7675239@news.iol.ie>  <33d25a70.2313885@news.iol.ie> <33d3446e.9865173@bhars12c> <33d4c32a.1657750@news.iol.ie>
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Greetings,

As you may or may not know, each week I plan on posing a question on my
webpage aimed at the people on this newsgroup.  It is an attempt to try
and find out what the majority view on this group is.  I incourage you
all to take part in this (unofficial) soc.culture.irish opinion poll.

The more that vote, the more accurate the result will reflect the overall
opinion of people on this newsgroup.

The first Soc.Culture.Irish Opinion poll is closed and the results are as
follows:

Poll #1 posted (20/7/97) the question asked was "There has been a lot of
discussion abour Northern Ireland's future status. What's your view on
the future of NI?," and the result was as follows:

Total votes received:                                32                 (100%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Option                                            Votes.            Percentage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 NI should be returned to the Republic now.           4               (12.5%)
 NI should eventually be returned to the Republic.   18               (56.25%)
 NI should never be returned to the Republic.         4               (12.5%)
 NI should become a country in it's own right.        0                (0%)
 Don't know.                                          6               (18.75%)
 Don't care.                                          0                (0%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly a majority in favour of eventually returning NI to the Republic.

Thanks to all those who took part to make this vote possible, and to those
who offered questions for the future, they are on file.

Thanks also to those who pointed out changes that needed to be made to the
voting form, I have now re-written the guidelines to make it clearer how to
vote and included a section you can use if none of the options presented
are to you liking, but you still would like to vote in the poll.
When you visit the site, whether it be your first or second time, take a
moment to read the new guidelines.

Ok, now onto this weeks question:  There has been much discussion in the media
over the content of the Irish National Anthem. Some say it's perfect, others say
should be dropped as it's no longer appropriate for Ireland of today.
How do you feel about the Anthem?  If you would like to contribute to the poll,
the web address is:

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652/opinionpoll.html

There is no hurry, the poll will not close until next friday (around 9pm Irish),
with the results being posted the following morning both to my webpage and
to this newsgroup.

I hope all those who took part will continue to contribute their voices to
make the result representative of their viewpoint, and I encourage those of
you who have not voted before to do so, it takes less than a minute to vote,
and it can make the difference between your viewpoint being in a majority
or minority placing in the overall poll.

Results will be posted next weekend as usual, I'm looking forward to receiving
your votes.

Regards,

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:16 EDT 1997
Article: 79461 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:16:38 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <33d8f60a.1804767@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>>waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:
>>
>>>> My only question is "How did you form your opinion of Islam 
>>>>and its many intricacies?  
>>>
>>>Ray recieved his information from his fellow bigots in the Christian
>>>Identity movement. 
>>>Bill
>>
>>Listen up good Bill!
>>
>>When I want to appoint you as my mouthpiece, I'll do so, until then
>>I will answer questions asked of my at my own discression.
>>
>>Ray.
>
>Wow, look at Ray flex those net muscles! >LOL< I'll answer any post I feel
>like, tough guy. If you don't like it you can tell my Mom, I suppose.....
>Bill

Bill, I'm not trying to interfere with what articles you reply to, BUT it's
good manners to allow a specific question to a specific individual to be
answered by that individual, not jump in with a lame smart assed comment!

It's called netiquette!

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:19 EDT 1997
Article: 79462 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:16:26 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 52
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>>>Rather then continuing to acquaint us with your breathtaking lack of
>>>knowledge, why don't you consult a decent library. You will find that
>>>Kuwait has some of the largest reserves in the world.
>>>Bill
>>
>>Oh, right, and why don't you check about the fact Kuwait was being
>liberated
>>and restored to Iraq.  This was a totally internal Arab problem, other
>Arab
>>countries could see this, but no, America had to stick it's nose where it
>>wasn't wanted.
>
>Interesting.....you defending Saddam Hussein, Ray?
>
What's the next question, you defending Iraq's scud missile attack on
Israel?  I bet you'll deny it, but it was obvious you were leading to
this.
 
>>Notice too the difference between the US Somalia relief effort and the
>>massed invasion of Iraq soil.  The US sure has it's priorities mixed up.
>>For oil it will risk tens of thousands of US troops, for people, it will
>>risk a few, and when one or two gets killed, - GET 'EM OUT!
>>
>>Ray.
>
>Where would this be catalogued in the library, Ray? Under "Ill-Informed
>and Silly Theories of Your Local S.C.I Neo-Nazi"? I can just imagine what
>*that* bibliography will look like.....
>Bill

Did they or did they not run from Somalia when things got hot?

Here a sick joke I've heard, but it's meaning makes it worth repeating.

Two somalias, half starved are under attack from black marketeers who want
to kill and take their food and supplies.  One notices the other digging
a hole, and says "what are you digging for, it's no use hiding in there"
the reply was "Who's hiding, I'm digging for oil!"

I bet even Bill can understand the message behind this 'joke'.

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:22 EDT 1997
Article: 79469 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:43:53 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 31
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d3c711.9561183@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>Oh well, I suppose I was asking too much expecting an INTELLIGENT
>response
>>to my post.  You know there are some serious points in there, it's a
>shame
>>people can't stop throwing mud for a moment, and read it properly and
>have
>>a think about things before they hit the reply key to fire another salvo
>>of ignorance in my direction.
>>
>>Ray.
>
>Speaking of salvoes of ignorance...you're dismissal of the Q'uran and
>Islam as 'pagan, Un-Christian crap' stands as a shining example
>thereof.....

Sure it does Bill, sure it does, how could I have said such things
about a satanically inspired book...  

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:27 EDT 1997
Article: 79491 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:17:31 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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g.griffin@no.spam.btinternet.com (George Griffin) wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:03:43 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>
>}g.griffin@no.spam.btinternet.com (George Griffin) wrote:
>}
>}>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:28 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan) wrote:
>}>
>}>}Alexander Simpson  wrote:
>}>}
>}>}>Ray Hourigan wrote:
>}>}>> 
>}>}>> Alexander Simpson  wrote:
>}>}>> >
>}>
>}>}>	 I agree on everything in the above paragraph with the exception
>}>}>     of the last sentence. The Irish Army, apart from fulfilling
>}>}>     an important peacekeeping role and other vital millitary 
>}>}>     duties, such as performing as extras in Braveheart, is very
>}>}>     poorly trained in terms of anti-terrorism.
>}>}
>}>}Ok, so most of their training is geared around fighting a proper
>}>}military army, using conventional warfare.  But I think they could
>}>}quickly adapt.  
>}>}
>}>It took the BA about 10 years to fully adapt. Of cours teh Irish Army might
>}>learn from them and so become proficient more quickly. But you miss the point
>}>that the BA can only contain the IRA (albeit because of political constraints),
>}>so it is likely the Irish Army would be in a similar postion. 
>}
>}There is one distinction, the IRA can and do operate in the South, they are
>}free to run across the border to escape capture, and the British army can't
>}(officially, but I did hear some disturbing stories) follow them south.
>}
>But they also operate in NI, and plan, prepare the attacks etc. All teh border
>does is make it easier to escape. In most cases there is no "hot chase" going
>on. The bomb is left when there are no police/army around. The Police do pick up
>suspects after attacks, and it a lot of cases "know" who did what. They just
>don't have the evidence to prove it. Unless you intend to suspend the normal
>laws then the same will apply in your scenario.

My point was that in a UI, there will be no border for the Unionists to run
North of, if they tried to disrupt life in the Capital.

It's no use knowing who did what, unless it can be proved.

>}Now, in a United Ireland, there will be no border, for the Unionists to
>}run to, our troops will be on their streets maintaining order for a change.
>
>Do you envision check points at each street corner? If so you'd better start
>recruiting. You'd also be increasing the number of targets for attack.

Not at each street corner no, but in big towns and cities.  Also I would
see several mobile "armies" who' travel about waiting for a call that
there has been a gun attack and this "army" (probably 30+troops) would flood
the area, search everyone and every car to find the culprets.

>}This will limit extremely their ability to gather the necessary equipment
>}and manpower to launch anything like a big attack. 
>
>Ray, have you been in NI at any time? The BA have not been able to clamp down on
>the IRA, the RoI will be in a similar situation in you scenario.

The loyalist terrorists are cowardly dogs, they attack innocent civilians for
the most part, occassionally the "rise" to attacking Sinn Fein, again these
are elected people, to put it bluntly the loyalists don't have the balls for
a sustained attack where they are likely to get involved in firefights
with better armed and better trained military.  Their bomb making and handling
skills are laughable.  You know it actually surprises me, since the loyalists
membership often includes soldiers, how they can be so far behind the IRA
on this count.

>} Of course they will
>}probably go for small fire bombs, and a campaign of interruption by hoaxing
>}bombs and so forth, but their ability to actually do something major is
>}very limited.
>}
>Considering the damage a firebomb attack causes you have a strange view of what
>is major.

Major is a 1000lbs bomb exploding in the city centre, destroying many shops
and such.  single firebombs, even destroying single businesses, while is
disruptive, is not major.

If loyalists decide to set off car bombs to kill people, they will comit
the biggest blunder they could ever do, becasue it will be a total probaganda
victory for nationalism.  It will have the effect of driving many into the IRA
that would not have joined before, it will encourage the military and police
to shoot them rather than capture them.  It would bring huge international
condemnation of unionism and loyalism.

YOu must realise that their ability to launch a sustained attack is minimal,
their options  are minimal, and infastructure is minimal.  They are not
nearly as well developed as the IRA, they do not have the safe house network
they don't invest in training as such, they are little more than men with
guns who when faced by an equal opponent who can attack back will run like
hell.

>}>}> The bomb-squad 
>}>}>     is outdated and small and relatively inexperienced.
>}>}
>}>}I don't think they are outdated, perhaps small.  However in the few
>}>}instances that they have had to be called, they seemed confident
>}>}enough to handle the situation themselves without calling in outside
>}>}assistance.
>}>}
>}>Again you make the mistake of allowing the bomb squad time to do its work. THe
>}>IRA does not give much warning for its bombs, loyalists are likely to follow
>}>that path.
>}
>}But they didn't call on the British Bomb Disposal Experts for assistance
>}did they?  NO, they felt confident enough to handle the situation themselves.
>}
>Good, but if they have 20 minutes warning, no firm idea of where the bomb is,
>and whether there are others (ie is this a come on designed to kill them), being
>good won't be enough.
>
>I suggest you read some of the factual accounts of ex bomb squad members.

And what apart from clearing the area do you suggest the British Army BD experts
could do with a 20 minute warning?

>}>}> I don't 
>}>}>     think that it is the Irish Army that foils the objectives
>}>}>     of Loyalist paramillitaries, but the political disagreement
>}>}>     between Loyalist factions.
>}>}
>}>}So long as any murderous plans are foiled, does it matter so much anyway.
>}>}
>}>snip
>}>
>}>}The old they're not terrorists, they are reactionaries, well I don't
>}>}swallow that.  The loyalists target civilians, more interested in
>}>}their religion than politics. 
>}>
>}>To a large extent that has been true, though they've also targetted SF members.
>}
>}SF members do distance themselves from the IRA, but being nationalist, are at
>}least more of a legit target then a woman asleep in her bed.
>}
>I don't regard anyone a legit target for terrorists.

I meant legit in the terrotists eyes, not mine.  

>}>The IRA targets members of the RUC, army etc. You have to expect the loyalists
>}>to start doing the same to the equivalent RoI groupings, which gives them easier
>}>identified targets (just as the IRA has). 
>}
>}There will be trouble, no doubt, there are people in loyalism and Orangism that
>}would rather die than see a United Ireland come to be.  However, my claim is
>}that they neither have the manpower, the training or tactical training or
>}infastructure to carry out a *sustained* campaign.  I suspect that their
>}campaign would be contained within a month.
>}
>Ray, with all respect, you have a very naive view of the ability of terrorists
>to cause distruption.

Terrorists covers a multitude, we are talking about a specific grouping, the
loyalist terror groups, not the IRA.  A bunch of guys running round the
road with guns for the media to film (recently we saw this on the news, as
loyalists said they were guarding their areas) is not the same as a dedicated
terror group who plan attacks very carefully, pour massive amounts of money
into their campaign.

>}>snip
>}>
>}>}They don't plant bombs because they don't have the brain power,
>}>}another recent incident proves this yet again, when a loyalist
>}>}terrorist blew himself up with a pipe bomb.
>}>}
>}>Some news reports had it as an anti handling device. Which, if it was the case
>}>does not indicate they have no brain power. You are making a basic mistake of
>}>underestimating you opponent.
>}
>}BUT it was *their own bomb*, if anybody knew about the the anti-handling device
>}then it should be the handler. 
>
>Not from what I heard from people on the estate. He was not apparently aware of
>the booby trap.

But the bomb was created by loyalists, this is beyond question, the fact that
they didn't warn their comrade about the anti-handling device, shows their
choatic attitude towards their "mission".  It's my suspicion that he may have
been drunk and just dropped the bomb.  I can't see the loyalists putting
a anti-handling device on a pipe bomb.

>} Even if the maker wasn't the man killed, since
>}makers are rarely planters, the handler would surely have been warned on the
>}best way to make the device safe to carry away or store.
>}
>From rumours I heard it was the one used to protect the "store".

Well, he's dead now, did the loyalist group he was attached to apologise
to the man's family?  I doubt it.


>}>}> The leadership strategy
>}>}>     is different, and is debatable whether one is of any greater
>}>}>     "quality" than the other.
>}>}
>}>}I'm not talking "quality", I'm talking competence.
>}>}
>}>}>     Loyalists suffer from greater 
>}>}>     factions and in-fighting, but that is understandable given 
>}>}>     the number of Loyalist terrorist groups. Republican violence
>}>}>     does not suffer anything like the same problem.
>}>}
>}>}But it has in the past.  At any rate, for whatever reason, the loyalists
>}>}cannot terrorise us with bombs, and for that we should be thankful.
>}>}
>}>Do, because Dublin etc. are wide open to attacks.
>}
>}Not since '74 was it, did the Loyalists manage to detonate a number big bombs
>}here, and then they had the help of the British Intelligence/ army to aid
>}the construction.  I dont' think they have progressed even to that point
>}since without aid, they are not inclined to to take any personal risks,
>}hense the soft targets they pick.  It's one thing sneaking into a room
>}to shoot a sleeping woman, it's quiet another to drive a bomb from Belfast
>}to Dublin, past security.  
>}
>What security? I've been down many times in the 80's & 90's. I got stopped once
>(on the RoI side). Take a route which is not a main one and its even less
>likely. 

We have been talking that in the event of a United Ireland being granted, that
certain loyalists would attempt to bomb Dublin.  In the event of a UI, that
possibility would be high on the security forces minds and security would
be stepped up bigtime.

Snip

>}>}>> I think the Irish troops do a good job up and around the border.  Despite
>}>}>> several threats, no major attack have occurred. 
>}>}>
>}>}>	 I don't know which border crossings you're familiar with.
>}>}>     The border checkpoint on the Irish side at Enniskillen is
>}>}>     unbelievably easy. We've been waved through unchecked each 
>}>}>     time. I think it owes more to the suspicion and thoroughness
>}>}>     on the British side that very little gets out, than the 
>}>}>     expertise of the Irish Army.
>}>}
>}>}Was this recently?  I understand that security was stepped up when the
>}>}loyalists said they'd set off bombs if the parade wasn't forced through.
>}>}
>}>By which point the explosives were alrady (alledgedly) in the RoI. 
>}
>}As you said alledgedly, we haven't found any of them, and none were detonated,
>}so we don't know, let's hope it was a bluff.
>}
>I hope so, having been close to ones in Belfast I don't wish it on anyone.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:30 EDT 1997
Article: 79496 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:26:32 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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nospam@here.com wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:54:24 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
>wrote:
>>>  The combined size of Loyalist paramillitaries 
>>>  whether in the UDA, UVF or UFF outnumber Republican paramillitaries
>>>  significantly in terms of numerical manpower.
>>
>>Probably true, seeing as there are more groups.  But the quality of
>>leadership is not there.
>
>How are you measuring quality in this instance?

Quality as in determination, resources, that sort of thing.

>>They have not had success with this before, their "tech" level is
>>below that of the IRA without doubt.  although recently, they have
>>had some success with under car bombs.
>
>The PIRA tech level is sufficiently low as to result in civilian
>casualties when the are supposedly attempting to hit economic targets.
>That's hardly 'tech'.

True, but they still have the ability to construct major bombs, whereas
the Loyalist terrorists cannot.

>>I think the Irish troops do a good job up and around the border.  Despite
>>several threats, no major attack have occurred.  However, security can
>>never be strong enough, and we must be watchfull.
>
>I doubt if they'd try it.

They threathened to if the silly boys in orange didn't get to march where
they liked.  It was reported that they (LVF I think) had planted 10 bombs
in Dublin, Cork and Galway.  when the march was pushed through the said that
6 of the devices had been taken away or words to that effect, meaning that
4 of them were still in place.  All this may have been a bluff, but security
was tightened on the border over it.

>I know that, despite my disagreement with
>the concept of a united Ireland, I would be furious if loyalists
>threatened, injured or killed any of my fellow countrymen (that is,
>those from the Republic who are not engaged in terrorist activities). 

Yup, I think the same!  besides the human cost, it wouldn't win the
loyalists any friends.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:33 EDT 1997
Article: 79508 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:03:01 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d64c16.1464719@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>Big Brother is certainly proud of you and Ger and Tom and... well I
>>won't list the others I had in mind, they are on probation as it were,
>>but you three are certainly high rankers in the Thought Control Police.
>>
>>Tell me how do you say "free thinker" in Newspeak anyhow?
>>
>>Ray.
>>
>>
>
>Funny how you movement types all like to rail against what you claim is an
>orchestrated attack against you....particularly amusing in light of
>Milton's little piece I just read on how to orchestrate an attack on the
>"Jewsmedia" through the Internet.

There you go again, dodging the issue and trying to cloud it with nonsense.
You can't even admit to yourself what is obvious to others.  Remember that
file "Bladerunner", you are like one of those replicants, your opinions come
right out of the guidebook on "how to think the politically correct way".
Sure it may be safe, but it's a hollow feeling isn't it?  Not standing up
for anything that does not fully assimilate with the Politically Correct
thought processes that you have for a mind.

>From what I have seen of you in the last
>several months it seems like you are marching in lock step with his
>recommendations.  
>Bill

I've no idea what you're talking about in the above sentence.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:40 EDT 1997
Article: 79547 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:37 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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tallpaul@nyct.net (Paul Kneisel) wrote:

I was planning on ignoring all mail by this guy, but this one is so
absurd that I simply must put the record straight.

Snip

>>I thought I was making progress at breaking the stereotype some of you
>>tried to cast me as, that is until I visited Gerard Cunningham's homepage
>>and read the piece he has about "fingal" posted there, right under a pic of
>>old Adolf himself.
>>
>>I am not a NAZI!  If I was a Nazi, this is what I would be doing right
>>now:
>>
>>1. I would be on to Don Black, about restoring the Aryan Corps homepage
>>   he hosted for me.
>
>Not when Hourigan, Kleim & Friends compete with people like Don Black.

I only speak for myself.  I represent neither group nor friends.  I was
*never* in competation with Don Black.

>>2. I would be a regular contributer to the SF-Newsletter. 
>
>Not if Hourigan, Kleim & Friends want their own newsletter that they,
>not NA leaders, control.

What the hell are you talking about now?

>>3. I would be using an alias that can be obtained at stormfront to post.
>
>Not if STORMFRONT won't provide one to factional opponents.

You don't seem to realise I was talking that IF I was STILL a nazi, these
are the things I would be involved in.  Obviously now I hold different
views.  During my time in the "movement", I supported people like
Don, I was never his opponent in any form.

>>4. I would be promoting the National Alliance, and Stormfront webpages,
>>   not my own, and the INN page.
>
>Why should Hourigan who now competes with the NA want to advertise
>that group? Certainly the National Socialist White People's Party
>doesn't carry the NA web page instead of their own. Nor do groups like
>the White Aryan Resistance.

 the statement shoots right over pauls head again.

>>5. I would be posting to "racist" newsgroups, not here.
>
>Not if you think that posting to such groups is "too hot" because of
>anti-fascists there and you're looking for "fresh meat" the way that
>the old CyberNaziGroup targeted .

I have not posted here looking for new recruits (fresh meat) as you suggest,
infact I am probably the #1 anti-hero on this group.

>>6. My webpage would contain blatent racist pro-hitler material.
>
>A number of fascist groups have web pages that do not contain such
>material.

Such as?

>>7. I would never have insulted the people that the "movement" hold
>>   as sacred "leaders" unless I never intended going back to the
>>   "movement"
>
>Thieves fall out. So do generic fascists. So do Nazis.

This wasn't a falling out, this was a cutting free! and sailing
far away!

Snip

>Nazis fall out and have their own bloody political battles within the
>ranks of their own party. So do today's fascist groups. Check other
>news groups and see today's battles between the NA and NSSWP.

The battle between these groups is more battle of personalities than
idealogy.  

>>8. Tallpaula posted my "resignation statement" here like it was some
>>   dark secret he dug up, but that same statement was posted to Usenet
>>   when I left.
>>
>
>Posted long ago with political views that Hourigan seeks either to
>hide, deny, or explain away today, e.g. Hourigan's attack on NA leader
>William Pierce for selling the _Turner Diaries_ to "a Jew."

 Paul, are you really that shallow a person that this
is how you read the resignation statement?  I attacked Pierce for selling
the book to a jew becasue he had spend so many years attacking jews.  He
betrayed his principles, and his friends, and NA members alike in this
single move.  I don't want to get into a battle about Pearce, but I
lost faith in him for his actions.

>>Visit my webpage, and what do you find?  Many articles and graphics
>>aimed at an exclusively Irish readership.  Not a single reference to
>>Hitler, no pictures of the swastika adorn my website.  There are no
>>links to "movement" sites from my webpage.
>>
>A lot of non-German fascist groups don't have pictures of Hitler. So
>what?

I have no pics of Hitler, no swastikas, no history of the third reich, no
links to "movement" groups.  I would totally discourage anyone from going
to racist groups with a view to joining such a group. 

>A lot of fascist groups don't put the swastika on their web pages.
>They have their own swastika-substitutes.

Ok, paul, you caught me, I'm using the image of Ireland and a Harp as a
substitute for a swastika, if you believe this, Paul there is no hope
for you.

>No, the links to "movement" sites are listed in Hourigan's posts,
>particularly to the Irish National Network web that *does* contain
>such links.
>
>>Why is this?  Because I LEFT the "movement", I burned my bridges, I cut
>>all links, I quit!
>>
>
>Hourigan left one fascist group -- the NA.

I was never in the NA! I was a strong supporter of it.  I also cut links with
all my friends who made up the membership of the Aryan Corps.  Today I am
not in contact with a single person that still supports the "movement".

>Did he cut his links? He still has Milton Kleim as a "friend" and,
>until recently, both were publishing on .

Why don't you try talking with your mouth, instead of your arse!
Milton, left the "movement" months before I did.  His departure, and
the reaction was a major factor in my leaving.  When he left, there
was a veiled death threat posted, none of the so-called "leaders"
condemned it.  I did!  And I encouraged others to do so, they didn't.
I got disgusted with them. 

>>When I quit, I had several choices:
>>
>>I could have based my webpage on a different interest, like my liking for
>>classical music, or my interest in astronomy.  But I chose Irish politics,
>>because I like the challange of debate.  I set up my webpage to reflect
>>my new ideals, and began posting here.
>>
>
>None of these points save one is at all relevant to the issue of
>specific NA-membership versus a broader fascism.

You avoided the point.  And I am not now, and never was a member of the Comm...
er National Alliance.  Forgive the mistake, It's just that Paul sounds more
fascist than I do... ;-)

>The one point is Hourigan's "new ideals" that led him to post the Nazi
>"Horst Wessel Lied" to the news group. Of course Hourigan now
>apologizes for this. So we have his new "new ideals." In the future we
>will probably see his "really new 'new ideals'," and his "This time I
>really mean it really new 'new ideals'."

It's called progression of thought!  Unlike youself Paul, I am not stuck
in a rutt.  I see mistakes I made, and I'm man enought to admit them.

>>My core view is that Ireland's future must be secured, culturally, and 
>>ethnically, that's all.  Tell me I'm wrong?
>>
>
>The dispute is not about this at all. It is about Hourigan's politics
>in defining these things and getting them.

It IS *exactly* about this!  I've made it clear that I persue all political
goals through entirely peaceful means. 

>BTW, didn't Hitler at one time maintain that his "core view is that
>Germany's future must be secured, culturally, and ethnically, that's
>all. Tell me I'm wrong?"

Maybe he did, maybe not, I don't know.  I leave that to fascists like Paul to
decide.  But so what?  Nationalism by it's very nature demands that one attempts
to protect the culture, heritage and ethnicity of his country, be a communist,
Muslem, Jew, Chinese, American, Irish, British or any other nationality.
  
>>Ok, so at the start, before I had my feet on the cyberground here, I posted
>>some articles that were wholly inappropriate, and for these I apologise.
>>I regret posting them, especially the "horst wessel" song lyrics on 
>>April 20.
>>
>>Many months have now passed, but still the same old "nazi" mud is thrown
>>from time to time...
>>
>
>Not the old specific "Nazi" mud; the old generic "fascist" analysis.

By the same old generic anti-fascist fascist Paula!

>>I already proved I'm no nazi.  I stand for many things that naziism does not:
>>
>>1. I'm a democrat, I will accept the majority vote, not impose my views on the
>>   majority.
>
>Meaningless when fascists can:
>
>define who the voters are -- "no Jews!", "no Gypsies!" etc.
>appoint the votetakers -- only loyal members of the group!
>appoint those counting the votes
>ban opposition political parties
>ban the opposition press

Oh, boy defeating you is like taking candy from a baby.  When have I ever
said any of the above?  What evidence do you have that any of this is any
part of my agenda?  Paul, when you are digging yourself into a hole, you
really dig yourself into a hole.

>>2. I am against all violence to achieve my goals, and see the pen as being
>>   a better weapon than the sword.  With a sword you kill a man, with a pen
>>   you sign a deal to keep both sides happy.
>
>Which is why his "friend" and former Aryan Corp Fuehrer Milton Kleim
>calls for themonuclear destruction of Asian people.

Guilt by association, another fascist idea.  Listen up Paul, I'll say this
slowly so even a person with a limited intellect like yours can understand

I   d o   N O T   r u l e   o v e r   A N Y B O D Y !!!!

What Milton, says or does not say is none of my business, unless he is
addressing me.  He does not confer with me before posting, nor I with
him.  This Paula is whats freedom of expression is all about, as alien
to you as it may seem.

>With a sword you kill *a* man; with the pen you can initiate a policy
>of genocide that kills *millions* of men, women, and children.

Or sign peace deals that spare lives of millions of men, women, and children.


>>3. I do not think a dictatorship should be set up in Ireland, I've no desire
>>   to chance the leader's title to Fuhrer, and create a new Reichstag in
>>   Dublin.
>
>Meaningless, particularly when non-fascists can be removed from
>Parliament and Parliament then votes to give extraordinary power to
>the national equivalent for "Fuehrer."

I just said I do NOT think a dictator ship should be set up in Ireland,
Paul read what I wrote before you reply, it will make your answers look
almost reasonable.

>Does Hourigan really thank that his disavowal of changing the title
>"Prime Minister" to "Fuehrer" means he can't be a fascist?

Ha ha Ha!!!!!  Forgive me, Paul, but the desperation in your article got
to me!! :-)

>>4. I've no desire to see a Forth Reich in Germany either, or anywhere else
>>   for that matter.
>
>I'm sure that French fascists don't call for a Fourth Reich in Germany
>either. They're still fascists.

Possibly true.  but "no desire to see" and "not calling" for a forth reich
are different, as you know, or should, if you used your brain sometime.

>>5. I do not believe in exterminating people I do not like.
>
>Neither did the Nazis in the beginning.

Stalin killed more people than Hitler, your point?

>They just wanted them to go away, with a little help from Nazi
>Stormtroops, Nazi Prosecutors, and Nazi Judges.

>The extermination camps came *after* the Nazis were in power, not
>before.

I suppose I better halt the planned extermination camp in Kildare then! 
Oh Christ, I can't believe this guy sometimes! :-(

>>6. I have no desire to see a greater Ireland, ie, invade Britain.
>
>ROTFLMAO.

You may laugh, but isn't the basic principle of Nazi rule the call for
"living space".  I would like to see a United Ireland, but not by military
means, like I said the pen is mightier thant he sword.  

>>I am no NAZI! I stand for Ireland, and for Ireland only! Ireland first,
>>Ireland Last, Ireland over all!
>
Snip
>     -- Milton Kleim
>     -- "On Tactics and Strategies For Usenet"

I did not write any of that, you've got the wrong guy Paula.

>>So I ask you give me a break on this nazi shit, I am an Irish Nationalist,
>>like many of you are, and that is all, what was in the past, is exactly
>>that, in the past, I made the mistake of joining the "movement", and when
>>I got out I gave my reasons for doing so.  It is a hate filled organization
>>with members that fantasize about bringing a nuclear holocaust about to stop
>>the "evil jews" from imposing the "Jew World order", I could never agree
>>with that because I do not support violence.
>> 
>
>Which is why Hourigan was Number 2 uebermensch to Milton Kleim when
>Kleim was calling for people to "nuke the gooks"?

 sorry, I fell asleep there for a moment.  Ah, paula dear, do
try and get your facts straight.  I am no longer involved with Mr Kleim
as a member of the AC, the "movemment" or anything else.  What he does
and says is his own business.  Do you advocate supression of speech,
and guilt by association now as well?  Paula, remember you're supposed
to trying to prove *I'm* a nazi, not *proving* you're one!!!!

>And then:

More nonsense, again posting articles that I had no part in creating, no part
in posting.  Guilt by association.  This article was written a LONG time ago,
when times were different.

Paul, everytime you post, you do me a favour, because your posts are so over
the top, I've got people emailing me, the same people that attack me on SCI
telling me to ignore you!  Yes Paula, you are doing a wonderful job at making
yourself look desperate, foolish, while at the same time giving me the
chance to exorcise the past.

Now crawl under the rock you emerged from, and do yourself, me, and everybody
else a favour, I've got to get to more important issues here like Ireland
and the Irish!!

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:43 EDT 1997
Article: 79548 of soc.culture.irish
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Row sparks off RACE RIOT!
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:17:38 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 131
Message-ID: <33d9f354.10127210@news.iol.ie>
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Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:79548

tommcvey@qm2.delete.this.sri.com (tom mcvey) wrote:

>In article <33d883f9.2335340@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) wrote:
>
>> Well, well, well,
>> 
>> They said it would never happen here, when I suggested otherwise
>> I was mocked and jeered, but just like I predicted, Ireland
>> has had it's first major race riot - and there wasn't an Irish
>> man involved!
>> 
>> According to Thrusday's Irish Mirror:
>> 
>> A RIOT broke out yesterday between African and Romanian refugees
>> waiting to collect social welfare payments.
>> 
>> More than 30 youths fought in a row over queue jumpers.  Other yobs
>> threw bricks and stones.
>> 
>> Gardai from south Dublin were called in to break up the trouble in
>> the grounds of St. James Hospital.
>> 
>> A passer-by said: "All hell broke loose.  They were fighthing and hopping
>> all over my car."
>> 
>> Five thousand asylum seekers flood into Ireland each year - a 5,000 per
>> cent increase since 1993.
>> 
>> -Irish Mirror, Thrusday 24 July 1997, page 9.
>> 
>> Rather than comment, I'll just quote a famous speech:
>> 
>> With foreboding, like the Roman, I seem to see the 'River Tiber foaming
>> with blood' -  Enoch Powell 20 April 1968
>
>And I seem to see you foaming at the mouth.
>
>You will be wrong, just as Enoch was wrong.

People here dismissed my posts about race riots, I wanted to bring their
attention to the first major race riot in Ireland, and there wasn't an
Irish man amongst them.

I've been criticised by email for posting it as an "I told you so" post,
and I realise I should have just posted the article as it appeared and
not commented.

>I quoted earlier from a study by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation (reviewed
>in the New Statesman, umm, I think dated July 18 or thereabouts), which
>surveyed riots and disturbances in the UK, which is a *much* more diverse
>society than the RoI.

I didn't see this, but you quote below anyway, so I'll read it now.

>The study found that the riots and disturbances surveyed were
>overwhelmingly white (95% in 12 out of the 13 riots surveyed). Common
>elements included large numbers of young men with few job prospects, low
>education, too much time on their hands, and little chance of being able to
>get married. (hmmm...who do we know like this?) 

There is a difference between a riot of drunken youths and a racial riot.
I doubt this study made the distinction.  

>So the solution to the problem posed by the above disturbance between
>refugees is...give 'em work permits, so they're out working or looking for
>work, (and coincidentially raising tax revenues at the same time). Lest you
>retort that this would increase our unemployment, I'd reply that this is
>the "lump of labor" fallacy in economics. I forget the theoretical reasons
>behind the fallacy (maybe Anthony can fill you in), but would point you to
>a study of the impact of a large influx of Cuban refugees on the Miami
>economy, discussed in a recent New Yorker article. The study found that
>despite an increase in the working population of Miami of 7% from the
>sudden influx of Cuban refugees around 1981, the effect on unemployment and
>wage rates was minimal.

Keep 'em out in the first place is better still.  I'd settle for letting them
in for a week or even a month, and then either deporting or allowing them to
stay.  If they are deported, they should be deported for life, and not allowed
to apply repeatedly for asylum here.

I can't see how ti can take up to 3 years to decide if a refugee is running
for his life because of his politics, or is simply a sponger.  Perhaps the
onus of proof of these things should be on the "refugee" him/herself.

Depriving Irish people of jobs so that immigrants can work will lead to
further riots as resentment will be fuelled.  

Nope, processing their application quickly is the answer.  Those that
get in, will have proved that their lives are under threat if they
return, and those that are sent back will be free to try elswhere
where spongers and illegal immigration is tolerated.

>So Enoch was *way off* when he predicted that Britain could not become a
>multiethnic society. But presumably Ray believes that the British are
>superior in their tolerence of difference than us bog-Irish. 

There is a difference here that you are skimming over, we are talking
about ILLEGAL immigrants, not legal immigration.  Enoch Powell said
that he saw much trouble ahead for England if immigration wasn't
stopped, and by some standards he was totally correct.

In England now it's considered offensive to minorities to wave the UnionFlag,
or to show any pride in England's past!  Parts of England are like parts of
India or china, with all the street names and signs in foreign languages.
some schools have English as a second language, and Christinaity is though
alongside Islam and other "religions".

Oh, Britain has a lot to be proud of today alright.

>BTW, the influx of refugees you quote (5,000 p.a.) is around 0.1% of
>Ireland's population. At that rate, it would take 50 years for us to reach
>the same level of ethnic minorities as are in Britain (5-7%).

But it also said that there has been a 5,000% increase since 1994, you are
forgetting to take this into account.

>I know the news of this caused you much pleasure Ray, but one swallow does
>not a summer make.

I didn't mean to wallow, but when I was proved right, I couldn't resist,
even though I should have and just posted the article uncommented.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:47 EDT 1997
Article: 79561 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:46:25 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <33d765ed.59404@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d4bd06.85010@news.iol.ie> <19970722210400.RAA29255@ladder01.news.aol.com> <33d5e6bc.1126897@news.iol.ie> <5r6hkr$ntl$2@News.Dal.Ca>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>
>: And what of Texas, Iran and other oil producing countries?  
>
>: And Iraq has been only able to sell a fraction of it's oil to buy much
>: needed humanitarian aid and food.  Well, then, how come America hasn't
>: ground to a halt with this lack of oil?
>
>
>     However, you forget that they did regain their access to Kuwaiti oil.   

What little there was of it.  Of course they did reinstall the dictatorial
royal family too.

>
>: We both know why American lives were sacrificed.
>
>
>     Were the Jews behind this one too?     
>
Jaysus Niel, you're starting to see jews behind everything! Better be careful
before you get labeled a jew hating nazi by some less than tolerant people
here in this newsgroup. :-)

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:50 EDT 1997
Article: 79566 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:26:58 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <33d7a9db.4198097@news.iol.ie>
References: <01bc8ff7$9778c620$afccedcc@ibm-compatible> <01bc9033$302cb760$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ca6fd0.2030643@news.iol.ie> <01bc90f9$bbe2f140$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cba3f1.2726694@news.iol.ie> <01bc91c6$eb17f820$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33ccd963.1879590@news.iol.ie> <01bc9291$5aa04f60$7f0998a4@mills_k.ie.stratus.com> <33cdff98.2802144@news.iol.ie>  <33cf5430.3431685@news.iol.ie>  <33d0a57f.5024724@news.iol.ie> <33D4C1EB.5534@tcd.ie> <33d4f433.249292@news.iol.ie> <33D65B5E.5C87@tcd.ie> 
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taig@btinternet.com (Greig Carlin) wrote:

>In article <33D65B5E.5C87@tcd.ie>,
>Alexander Simpson  wrote:
>
>> They have not had success with this before, their "tech" level is
>>> below that of the IRA without doubt.  although recently, they have
>>> had some success with under car bombs.
>
>
>
>Loyalists have very little access to explosives, in the past their
>activities have been assisted by members of the British Security forces -
>loyalists still associate openly with members of the RIR. Bomb making is a
>key area of activity that requires exposure of the "thinking loyalist" to
>the possibility of arrest. Unlike murders of wee girls or catholics on the
>way home from a pub - bombings require diverse supplies from diverse
>sources with material and human resources being brought together. It is an
>activity that places the very best loyalism can produce in some danger -
>they are incapable of resourcing a bombing campaign unaided.

I never thought I'd do this, but I'm writing a reply just to add "I agree".

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Sun Jul 27 13:58:53 EDT 1997
Article: 79572 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:14:15 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <33db298a.3977811@news.iol.ie>
References: <33d8f500.1539532@news.iol.ie> <19970726232101.TAA20774@ladder02.news.aol.com>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33d8f500.1539532@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>>>and restored to Iraq.  This was a totally internal Arab problem, other
>>>Arab
>>>>countries could see this, but no, America had to stick it's nose where
>it
>>>>wasn't wanted.
>>>
>>>Interesting.....you defending Saddam Hussein, Ray?
>>>
>>What's the next question, you defending Iraq's scud missile attack on
>>Israel?  I bet you'll deny it, but it was obvious you were leading to
>>this.
>> 
>
>Up the dosage or re-read the post again...
>
Was that or was that not the point you were leading towards?

Snip

>>Did they or did they not run from Somalia when things got hot?
>>
> We shouldn't have been there in the first place

A bit like Iraq really...

>chasing Mohammed Aideed
>around Mogadishu.

Actually, I think the aims of the force were good, if somalia was to be
helped the warlords there did need to be taken out or "neutralised".
The problem was lack of focus, and determination.  

Before they wen't there at all, they should have thought the whole
operation out better, so that the soldier on the ground wasn't
filled with "what if" quesitons, with nobody supplying the answers.

>We got what we deserved for intervening when we had no
>compelling interest to do so. You still haven't answered my question, btw
>(not that anyone will be surprised by that, I am sure).

I've asked many questions that have been not answered Bill, like:

.For instance, I believe in a "classless Society", something alien to many
.fascists, but you and others still call me fascist.

.I believe in wiping third world death off the slate, and giving the countries
.a chance to build up it's economy with the money it saves from not paying#
.back these monies.  Again fascist ideals would be against this.

.I believe in making a strong police force, with greater powers of arrest,
.harsher jail sentences in jails that are geared towards punishment not
.rehabilitation, a fascist idea?  Communist?

.I believe in the preservation of the Ireland and the Irish as a race, a 
.culture, does this make me a fascist?  Communist?  

.To paraphrase a certain lawyer, "if the label don't fit, you must acquit!"

I guess some people just can't face the truth, and realise that I'm not
a nazi monster, but a guy just like you, just trying to look for answers
and offer ideas for the future of Ireland's culture.

Well, Bill, are you going to play dodge the question, or are you going
to try and answer these questions/comments.  But not just you, others
who have been so quick to lable and attack me, I would also like to hear
>from  them on the above questions/views, it's time we laid that fascist
ghost to rest.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Mon Jul 28 10:58:51 EDT 1997
Article: 79629 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!news.agtac.net!dragon.sk.sympatico.ca!news.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!Ireland.EU.net!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: I am not a NASTY NAZI!
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:04:35 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <33d8922c.5970918@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>> My only question is "How did you form your opinion of Islam 
>>and its many intricacies?  
>
>Ray recieved his information from his fellow bigots in the Christian
>Identity movement. 
>Bill

Listen up good Bill!

When I want to appoint you as my mouthpiece, I'll do so, until then
I will answer questions asked of my at my own discression.

Ray.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Tue Jul 29 11:11:59 EDT 1997
Article: 79713 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.microtec.net!News1.Ottawa.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:57:33 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <33dc6969.1834390@news.iol.ie>
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>
>: Well, Neil, since you won't let it lie, I'll answer your question.
>
>: It was to show the world that America still has the military power to
>: attack any country it suddenly takes a dislike to.  This is when it's
>: not busy attacking it's own citizens (Waco).
>
>
>     I think this is an extremely cartoonish view of the matter.  Real
>money and lives, as well as votes, were at stake.  Bush took a gamble of
>sorts on the Gulf War, probably because he thought that the alternative
>was worse for America.  He's lucky that it turned out so well for him
>(shame about all those charred Iraqi civilians tho').

It didn't turn out so well for him did it:

Bombing hospitals, factories, bridges that had no strategic value other than
look good when shown on TV.

100,000 troops poisioned from gas.

The Patriot missile system killing more than the scuds they were supposed
to stop.

He almost managed to bring us all into a nuclear holocaust, had Israel
attacked Iraq, the Arab world would have been engulfed in a war that
would/could have destroyed all of us.

>     Please don't misrepresent the Waco business -- that the cops are
>heavy-handed in America no-one can deny, but there's no question in my
>mind that a bunch of holed-up and heavily-armed religious fanatics who had
>already murdered four policemen were not exactly innocent bystanders.
>Many of the victims were already dead before the fire, shot by Koresh and
>his henchmen.

There is too much differences of opinion on that one to debate it here.
Did you hear of Ruby Ridge?  

>: And I bet you thought I'd say "Jews" in ther answer, wrong!  Deduct a point
>: for losing the game!
>
>
>     Ray, do you honestly imagine that people are picking on you here for
>no reason in particular, or can you bring yourself to admit that posting
>stuff about Hitler's mother and how the Jews are ruining Ireland may have
>something to do with it?

There are some, who consider me a "whipping boy" of this group, and do pick
on me for no good reason.  Both of these were quotes, the first, a misquote
I thought was from Mein Kampfe, it wasn't the second was from the VOSP, and
I quoted the lot, letting you make up your own mind about it.

>: BTW, I'm not anti-American, but the Government and System sure suck! - as they
>: say.
>
>     Well as the official critic of America on this group I must point out
>that slagging the U.S. comes with responsibilities -- for one you should
>be prepared to suggest a better alternative to the current problems that
>they're experiencing, and for another thing you shouldn't blame the U.S.
>without cause, which is what you're doing here.

I am not blaming the US for anything, attacking the political system of a
country is NOT the same as attacking the people.  For instance a few years
ago Russia was Communist, attacks on russia were based on their political
system, not because they were Russian.  Some of my best friends are Americans,
and America has a lot to be proud of.

Ray.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Tue Jul 29 11:12:04 EDT 1997
Article: 79744 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:36:32 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>>>>>Interesting.....you defending Saddam Hussein, Ray?
>>>>>
>>>>What's the next question, you defending Iraq's scud missile attack on
>>>>Israel?  I bet you'll deny it, but it was obvious you were leading to
>>>>this.
>>>> 
>>>
>>>Up the dosage or re-read the post again...
>>>
>>Was that or was that not the point you were leading towards?
>>
>
>It was not. The point I was leading towards was the question I asked. Do
>you think Saddam Hussein was right to do what he did?
>

No, probably not, but don't believe that world oil was Saddam's goal either.

>>Snip
>>
>>>>Did they or did they not run from Somalia when things got hot?
>>>>
>>> We shouldn't have been there in the first place
>>
>>A bit like Iraq really...
>>
>>>chasing Mohammed Aideed
>>>around Mogadishu.
>>
>>Actually, I think the aims of the force were good, if somalia was to be
>>helped the warlords there did need to be taken out or "neutralised".
>>The problem was lack of focus, and determination.  
>
>Good intentions are often the road to hell. That said, I agree with the
>above opinion.

Good, for a change we agree, is the moon blue or something? ;-)

>>Before they wen't there at all, they should have thought the whole
>>operation out better, so that the soldier on the ground wasn't
>>filled with "what if" quesitons, with nobody supplying the answers.
>>
>>>We got what we deserved for intervening when we had no
>>>compelling interest to do so. You still haven't answered my question,
>btw
>>>(not that anyone will be surprised by that, I am sure).
>>
>>I've asked many questions that have been not answered Bill, like:
>>
>>.For instance, I believe in a "classless Society", something alien to
>many
>>.fascists, but you and others still call me fascist.
>
>A classless society is not anethma to most fascist societies....in fact,
>fascist parties have a tendency to squash class distinctions as one's
>relationship to the State has far more relevance than one's birth, wealth,
>et cetera....

This is true in theory, but in practice, there is always an "elite" formed,
and the rest are considered less equal in some respect.  Communism works
in theory but not in practice.  To create this "classless socitey", I would
redistribute the wealth, with the rich being hit, how many fascists do you
know that would do this then?

>>.I believe in wiping third world death off the slate, and giving the
>>countries
>>.a chance to build up it's economy with the money it saves from not
>paying#
>>.back these monies.  Again fascist ideals would be against this.
>
>Ah, fascism with a human face...how sweet.

No Bill, it proves that I an not the label "fascist" you believed be to be,
I will admit I made many mistakes that could lead you to believe otherwise,
especailly the "horst wessel" song, but I made a basic mistake in quoteing
"Mein Kampfe" as well which, to me anyway, showed that I wasn't a nazi,
since no self respecting nazi would misquote that book above all books.

>>.I believe in making a strong police force, with greater powers of
>arrest,
>>.harsher jail sentences in jails that are geared towards punishment not
>>.rehabilitation, a fascist idea?  Communist?
>
>Both

And you can see the fascist label is slipping again, I could be as easily
called a communist now as a fascist, which proves in a way that I'm neither.

>>.I believe in the preservation of the Ireland and the Irish as a race, a 
>>.culture, does this make me a fascist?  Communist?  
>
>It makes you a fool. Your basic premises are faulty, hence your
>conclusions don't correspond with reality.

Then everyman that ever fought for Ireland is, in your eyes, a fool. 
Those who wanted Irish self determination are, in your eyes, fools.
Those that died in the various rebellions are, in your eyes, fools.

.The Irish Proclamation states in part: 
.We declare the right of the People of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland
.and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and
.indefeasible.

Were, these fools as well Bill?  I'm not trying to hammer you Bill, but
when you call me a fool for standing up for Ireland and the Irish, it
makes me damn angry.

.The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has
.not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the
.destruction of the Irish People. In every generation the Irish People have
.asserted that right to national freedom and sovereignty

Is this piece of writing foolish too Bill?

It's a simple FACT that you cannot be a nationalist without being concerned
for the future of the nation, the ethnicity of the nation, and it's culture.
Culture, race, heritage, all go hand in hand, and cannot be divided.

>>.To paraphrase a certain lawyer, "if the label don't fit, you must
>acquit!"
>>
>>I guess some people just can't face the truth, and realise that I'm not
>>a nazi monster, but a guy just like you, just trying to look for answers
>>and offer ideas for the future of Ireland's culture.
>
>Nazi monster? No. Whiney wannabe Goebbels? Absolutely.

Bill, I left the "movement" where the swastika flew, if I was a wannabe
Goebbels, I'd still be there.  By leaving and making such a public attack
on the "movement" and the leadership, I've cut any hope of ever being
involved again.  I'm not a wannabe anything, I'm an Irish Nationalist.

Irish nationalism that does not take the ethnicity of the people of
Ireland is a sham, a joke, for securing Ireland's culture, and future,
must mean by defination securing the race of people called the Irish
as well.

>>Well, Bill, are you going to play dodge the question, or are you going
>>to try and answer these questions/comments.

Well, thank you for making the effort to answer them, and I answered yours
above.  It will be interesting to see if anyone else, who are so quick
to attack me, will be willing to discuss my views like adults.
  
>>But not just you, others
>>who have been so quick to lable and attack me, I would also like to hear
>>from them on the above questions/views, it's time we laid that fascist
>>ghost to rest.
>>
>>Ray.
>>
>>
>
>Change your ways and you will find that the label fades away.
>Bill

But Bill, I have already changed my ways.  Think back to when I first
came here, did I ever advertise racist newsgroups, racist websites,
anything like this connected to the "movement", I did not.  And infact
had it not been for the treachery of Derek Bell and Rich Graves, I would
have happily continued with Fingal, and whitewolf would never have been
mentioned at all.

Even if you look at the old whitewolf articles using Dejanews, you can
see that there is a big difference between what I posted then and what
I posted now.

I hope you remain serious about this issue in your replies, as I will
try to do in mine,

Regards,

Ray aka fingal.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Tue Jul 29 11:12:08 EDT 1997
Article: 79752 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:57:52 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 221
Message-ID: <33dc6c47.2568882@news.iol.ie>
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waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article <33dba7d2.3266870@news.iol.ie>, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray
>Hourigan) writes:
>
>>>A classless society is not anethma to most fascist societies....in fact,
>>>fascist parties have a tendency to squash class distinctions as one's
>>>relationship to the State has far more relevance than one's birth,
>wealth,
>>>et cetera....
>>
>>This is true in theory, but in practice, there is always an "elite"
>formed,
>>and the rest are considered less equal in some respect.  Communism works
>>in theory but not in practice.  To create this "classless socitey", I
>would
>>redistribute the wealth, with the rich being hit, how many fascists do
>you
>>know that would do this then?
>>
>
>But the elites in a fascist society did not owe their status to class or
>birth. Their status was relative to their worth to the goals and issues
>that the regime concerned itself with...In practice, fascism created
>societies that were less class bound than any other.

In theory yes, but not in practice.  What about my second point, the
redistribution of wealth.  This is not a fascist policy by any stardard.


>>>>.I believe in wiping third world death off the slate, and giving the
>>>>countries
>>>>.a chance to build up it's economy with the money it saves from not
>>>paying#
>>>>.back these monies.  Again fascist ideals would be against this.
>>>
>>>Ah, fascism with a human face...how sweet.
>>
>>No Bill, it proves that I an not the label "fascist" you believed be to
>be,
>
>What flavor of fascist your are doesn't concern me. Hitler loved children,
>Stalin had a soft spot for certain artists....that doesn't excuse the
> downside of their personalities.

There is a big difference between loving children and artists and wiping
third world death clean, and redistributing wealth so that everyone has
an opertunity to contribute something positive to society, not be limited
because of resources.  

>>I will admit I made many mistakes that could lead you to believe
>otherwise,
>>especailly the "horst wessel" song, but I made a basic mistake in
>quoteing
>>"Mein Kampfe" as well which, to me anyway, showed that I wasn't a nazi,
>>since no self respecting nazi would misquote that book above all books.
>
>I wasn't aware that such thing as a 'self respecting nazi' existed.

Look in the "movement", You'll find many that think themselves respectful.
Even if they are "leading" people out of pocket, by selling them a dream
that they can make a difference, while selling them books and things,
ie, making themselves rich at the idealists expense.

My point was that if I was a Nazi, I would not misquote such an important
book as Mein Kampfe, and in an open newsgroup too.

> That
>being said,  you show a pattern of posting extremist material, then
>denying that it's your responsibility and then belatedly admitting that it
>may have been wrong. The VSOP is a perfect example of quite a recent date.
>Tactical retreats aren't pauline conversions....

Hey, everyone makes mistakes.  The VOSP wasn't written by me, I don't
know the authors, I assume they are Irish since their material is aimed
at an Irish readership.  I posted the whole thing, and let you make up
your own minds about how relevant to Ireland it was.

What are "pauline conversions"?

>>>>.I believe in making a strong police force, with greater powers of
>>>arrest,
>>>>.harsher jail sentences in jails that are geared towards punishment not
>>>>.rehabilitation, a fascist idea?  Communist?
>>>
>>>Both
>>
>>And you can see the fascist label is slipping again, I could be as easily
>>called a communist now as a fascist, which proves in a way that I'm
>neither.
>
>On the contrary.....there is very little distinction between fascism and
>communism.  I could care less if you ranted about the 'dictatorship of the
>proletariot' or Irish 'lebenraum'.....you're still an enemy of the common
>man as far as I am concerned.

I'm not your enemy, I'm your friend who is offering an alternative route
to follow to the one that we are on.  What's so wrong about that?

>>
>>>>.I believe in the preservation of the Ireland and the Irish as a race,
>a 
>>>>.culture, does this make me a fascist?  Communist?  
>>>
>>>It makes you a fool. Your basic premises are faulty, hence your
>>>conclusions don't correspond with reality.
>>
>>Then everyman that ever fought for Ireland is, in your eyes, a fool. 
>>Those who wanted Irish self determination are, in your eyes, fools.
>>Those that died in the various rebellions are, in your eyes, fools.
>
>>.The Irish Proclamation states in part: 
>>.We declare the right of the People of Ireland to the ownership of
>Ireland
>>.and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and
>>.indefeasible.
>>
>>Were, these fools as well Bill?  I'm not trying to hammer you Bill, but
>>when you call me a fool for standing up for Ireland and the Irish, it
>>makes me damn angry.
>>
>>.The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has
>>.not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by
>the
>>.destruction of the Irish People. In every generation the Irish People
>have
>>.asserted that right to national freedom and sovereignty
>>
>>Is this piece of writing foolish too Bill?
>>
>>It's a simple FACT that you cannot be a nationalist without being
>concerned
>>for the future of the nation, the ethnicity of the nation, and it's
>culture.
>>Culture, race, heritage, all go hand in hand, and cannot be divided.
>
>The above mentioned rebellers did so for a variety of reasons. Some would
>agree with you....the large majority would not. Almost all, however,
>rebelled to secure some form of self determination for Ireland that did
>not depend on the strong psuedo-racialist component that is such an
>over-riding element of your thinking. 

I think you are wrong.  They fought for an Ireland for the Irish,
the Irish are geneticly white.  They did not fight for a homeland
for people they fought for a homeland for Irish people.

I think you skimmed over the above too easily, you should reread
it and have a think about it.

>>
>>>>.To paraphrase a certain lawyer, "if the label don't fit, you must
>>>acquit!"
>>>>
>>>>I guess some people just can't face the truth, and realise that I'm not
>>>>a nazi monster, but a guy just like you, just trying to look for
>answers
>>>>and offer ideas for the future of Ireland's culture.
>>>
>>>Nazi monster? No. Whiney wannabe Goebbels? Absolutely.
>>
>>Bill, I left the "movement" where the swastika flew, if I was a wannabe
>>Goebbels, I'd still be there.  By leaving and making such a public attack
>>on the "movement" and the leadership, I've cut any hope of ever being
>>involved again.  I'm not a wannabe anything, I'm an Irish Nationalist.
>
>And yet you still dip into the Storm Front web site for support for your
>theories.... 

You're talking about the piece I sent you about the origin of the white
race, I'm still waiting for a comment on that BTW.  You are free to attack
the source of the material, but you must do better if you are to counter the
message the material relays.

>and your buddy An Laochra still gets all shirty when your white power
>buddies have the effrontery to suggest that Celts are the 'weak link' in
>the Aryan chain......

If he did, he had a damn right to! We are not the "weak link"! I already
had this out with that "white power" fool, and I don't want to get into
it again here.  It was just one guy, not "buddies" and he claimed to
be part Irish himself.
 
>You have funny habits for somebody who is entirely cut off from the
>racists on the extreme fringe.....

I will still defend my people when they are attacked with nonsense, tell
me you wouldn't do the same?  

>>Irish nationalism that does not take the ethnicity of the people of
>>Ireland is a sham, a joke, for securing Ireland's culture, and future,
>>must mean by defination securing the race of people called the Irish
>>as well.
>
>Did you know, Ray, that according to the latest scientific data *all* of
>us are the descendants of Homo sapiens that left Africa less than 100,000
>years ago? This is not an opinion with the provenance of your cooked up
>history of the Aryans from your pals at Odin Press...it's real science.
>Allow me to quote at length (from today's NYT)...

Well, I've read your quote and it's snipped here.  At one time 
"real science" believed the earth was flat, and that the universe moved
around the earth.  You can stick to your theories and I to mine.

>As the articles ends...so will I...
>
>
>"Though modern humans may not look exactly alike, we are all indeed
>Africans under the skin."

This bit is nonsence, there are huge differences in the different races.
>From  brain to bone structure, to intelligence to logic, it goes much
deeper than skin colour, which is only the outward sign of difference.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Tue Jul 29 11:12:12 EDT 1997
Article: 79761 of soc.culture.irish
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From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:10:54 GMT
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ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:

>Ray Hourigan (rayh@nospam.iol.ie) wrote:
>: ap435@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair McEwan) wrote:
>
>: >     I think this is an extremely cartoonish view of the matter.  Real
>: >money and lives, as well as votes, were at stake.  Bush took a gamble of
>: >sorts on the Gulf War, probably because he thought that the alternative
>: >was worse for America.  He's lucky that it turned out so well for him
>: >(shame about all those charred Iraqi civilians tho').
>
>: It didn't turn out so well for him did it:
>
>: Bombing hospitals, factories, bridges that had no strategic value other than
>: look good when shown on TV.
>
>
>     I think "look good when shown on TV" about sums up why it *was* so
>valuable for him.  The public managed to forget about the innocent
>civilians killed during the war, to the extent of viewing the War as some
>kind of rehabilitation for the U.S. military since Vietnam and to the
>extent of giving a ticker-tape parade to the returning heroes.

Oh, I agree it looked great on TV, like some kind of high tec wargame played
out on the screen, people (targets) were reduced to little bright pixels on
the screen, and then we had the countdown to the bomb hitting, like some kind
of game.

>
>: 100,000 troops poisioned from gas.
>
>
>    ... by the time any higher-up actually admitted this had happened,
>Bush was safely on the golf course.

Do you think he'll be made pay now?

>
>: The Patriot missile system killing more than the scuds they were supposed
>: to stop.
>
>
>    Eh?  The Patriot missile system was extremely successful during the
>war.  
>

Thats what I heard 'during' the war, but about a year afterwards, there
was a program on channel 4 (I think) that suggested that the patriots
had a hit rate of about 75% and that of those it hit, it generally
didn't destroy the warhead, which fell to earth and exploded.  If you
consider the scud not reaching the target it was aimed for as successful
well it was, there were also stories mentioned of the patriot missiles
themselves falling back having missed the scuds and exploding.

>: He almost managed to bring us all into a nuclear holocaust, had Israel
>: attacked Iraq, the Arab world would have been engulfed in a war that
>: would/could have destroyed all of us.
>
>
>    How?  Who among the Middle Eastern states has nuclear weaponry
>sufficient to cause a "holocaust"?

Israel for one.  At that time, Russia may or may not have retaliated against
Israel, which would have meant that the USA would retaliate, and we would
all have met our maker a lot sooner than planned.  Now I've no evidence
to support that Russia might have retaliated, just guesswork.  I'm glad
my guess wasn't correct.

>: >     Please don't misrepresent the Waco business -- that the cops are
>: >heavy-handed in America no-one can deny, but there's no question in my
>: >mind that a bunch of holed-up and heavily-armed religious fanatics who had
>: >already murdered four policemen were not exactly innocent bystanders.
>: >Many of the victims were already dead before the fire, shot by Koresh and
>: >his henchmen.
>
>: There is too much differences of opinion on that one to debate it here.
>: Did you hear of Ruby Ridge?  
>
>
>     Yes, but that was a different case, with different circumstances.  
>You should judge each case on its merits, rather than making a blanket
>condemnation of the authorities for all time.

These cases are similar in that both the victims of the system were trying
to isolate themselves from the rest of the people.  The Federal building
bombing was a direct result of Waco, and Ruby ridge, since both these
incidents have caused great concern amongst the people.

I wonder how long it will be before we see the National Alliance building
surrounded and torched and the occupants shot, it seems that any group
that decide to set up home in isolation is going to be hammered into the
ground by the system.

>: >     Ray, do you honestly imagine that people are picking on you here for
>: >no reason in particular, or can you bring yourself to admit that posting
>: >stuff about Hitler's mother and how the Jews are ruining Ireland may have
>: >something to do with it?
>
>: There are some, who consider me a "whipping boy" of this group, and do pick
>: on me for no good reason.  Both of these were quotes, the first, a misquote
>: I thought was from Mein Kampfe, it wasn't the second was from the VOSP, and
>: I quoted the lot, letting you make up your own mind about it.
>
>
>    Regarding the first quotation (Hitler's mummy): whether it was from
>Mein Kampf or not, you *thought* it was, and it is a curious authority for
>a non-Nazi to cite, isn't it?

It's some time ago, but the point I was trying to make in that was that
people stick labels on people too easily.  For instance, when that quote
(which turned out not to be what I thought it was) was read, it probably
created a sympathetic view in the reader, and when he/she read it was
by Hitler (as I thought at the time) the sympathy evaporated rapidly.

Although I had the source wrong, I think the point was made.  It's still
happening here, no matter what point I make, or how much I portest that
I am not a nazi, people still ignore it, labels and cliques at work,
rather than intelligence.

>As for the second quotation (VOSP), if you
>had been in any way repulsed by the contents of that newsletter you would
>never have posted them, or you would at least have said something like
>"look what kind of crap comes into my mailbox"; that you posted it with
>only the weakest of disclaimers amounts to a kind of complicity with the
>fools who wrote it.  Ray, if I were to post slanderous material about you
>and your family allegedly written by a third party, would you accept any
>disclaimer I attached to it?  Wouldn't you naturally hold me responsible
>for disseminating it?  Of course you would.  And until you issue a sincere
>apology for having posted the VOSP thing, we have every right to see you
>as on a par with the authors themselves.

Ok, Neil,  you make a strong argument.  I didn't comment on the content
of the VOSP because I didn't want to influence the reader one way or the
other.  I actually posted 2 VOSP newsletters.  I think they raised good
points for discussion, there was some I agreed with, some I disagreed
strongly with, but I left the reader to make up his own mind.

I think one basic mistake the authors made was their use of language,
they could have got the same messages across in a less inflamatory way,
and probably drew less hostility as well.

As for the future, I've got VOSP 3 but I won't be posting it.  Your point
about responsibility is valid.  I do not know the authors, and if I lost
my ISP for posting that material, they would not lose anything, and I
would be the fool for risking that for an article by authors unknown.

There will be no more VOSP from me.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Tue Jul 29 11:12:15 EDT 1997
Article: 79768 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: A Peaceful Strategy For A United Ireland?
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:08:37 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <33dcb5a9.3284765@news.iol.ie>
References: <33db298a.3977811@news.iol.ie> <19970727144601.KAA00261@ladder02.news.aol.com> <33dba7d2.3266870@news.iol.ie> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-024.limerick.iol.ie
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235
Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:79768

tallpaul@nyct.net (Paul Kneisel) wrote:

Paula, you have an awful record for following up on my responses,
can't face debate eh?  Oh, well, even if you are cowardly, let's
see what you have to troll about today.

>On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:36:32 GMT, rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray "whitewolf"
>Hourigan)  <33dba7d2.3266870@news.iol.ie> wrote that "to create this
>'classless socitey,' [he] would redistribute the wealth, with the rich
>being hit...." and then went on to ask "how many fascists do you known
>that would do this then?"
>
>Lots of fascists.
>
>In fact, before the last day of June 1934 it was a standard Nazi Party
>promise.
>
>The Nazi "class society" was the "People's" or "Volkish" state.
>
>And the Nazis also had another word for the "rich" that whitewolf
>would "hit."
>
>They were called Jews.
>

Ha Ha Ha!!! that is good sophistory,  I'm not going to argue the
pro's and cons of Nazi Germany.  I never even mentioned the jews.
I'm talking about Ireland's future.

Let's see what else TrollPaul troll has to say for himself....

....

Nothing, Jeez Paula you quoted the entire article to make a tiny point at
the start, ah but wait, you did add:

Huge snip - absolutely no need for Trollpaul to include it..
>-- tallpaul
>
>Fascism: We have no ethical right to forgive. We have no historical right to forget.

I asked you already to defind your version of Fascism, perhaps you forgot,
perhaps you ignored it, come to that, why are you ignoring all my replies
to your trolls?

Don't you have the guts to engage me in debate, or is it the fascist
in you that won't allow you to engage in debate incase you lose, never
fond of freespeech are you, which is another thing I believe strongly
in, and yet another thing fascists like to curtail.

Look Paul, on a serious note, if you really want to discuss this, let's
do so, in an adult and non-abusive manner.  I admit that I've poked fun
at you, but I've only been responding in kind.  Now I asked you to
retract things before, I replied to your articles ( I was going to
write trolls, but let's start this on a good footing), but you failed
to respond.  If you've got a bone to chew, let's hear it, because there
is only so much more effort I'm going to put into responding to you
articles if they continue to be abusive and full of half-truths,
either debate wiht me and show some backbone, or leave this newsgroup
quietly by the backdoor.  At present you are getting no support from
people here that would normally attack my views, they see you as
a troll as I do, either stand up and debate properly and be ready
to back up your accusations or go away.

I've thrown down the gauntlet, are you going to pick it up or
go away?

I've still nothing personal against you, but you're getting harder
to like by your actions.  Even Bill Boyle, who is my nemesis here
when you're not about has the guts to back up his views, and that
is why I still answer his articles, much as I don't like what he
has to say, I respect him a lot more than I do you.

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From rayh@nospam.iol.ie Tue Jul 29 11:12:19 EDT 1997
Article: 79800 of soc.culture.irish
Path: trends.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!not-for-mail
From: rayh@nospam.iol.ie (Ray Hourigan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
Subject: Re: Immigration
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:36:37 GMT
Organization: Irish Nationalist Network
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <33dbaf43.5172886@news.iol.ie>
References:  <19970727145001.KAA16677@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-047.limerick.iol.ie
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235
Xref: trends.ca soc.culture.irish:79800

waboyle@aol.com (WABoyle) wrote:

>In article , dalt@loop.com (O/
>Do/naill ) writes:
>
>>May it always be so,
>>
>>
>>Sworn to protect my Gaelic kin, blood, and heritage,
>>Thereby following in the footsteps of my great ancestors,
>>
>>
>>Ciaran O/ Do/naill
>>
>>*who has seen the Irish Nationalist Network's website, and will indeed
>>join its ranks!  Thank-you, and be whole.*
>>
>>PS.  Emails to me will be trashed unread.  To contact me in support, join
>>the Irish Nationalists Network!
>
>Soon to be followed by frantic hemming and hawwing by Fingal and An
>Laochra as they do their best to avoid admitting that they are in the same
>boat as the above example of ignorant bigotry. 

Ah, Bill, I've seen this article too, and it's as much a surprise to me
to see the INN mentioned as it probably was to you.  I've no idea who
this guy is, but I'll look into it.

As for the content of the article, I won't comment yet, if at all,
But I will be contacting Al Laochra about this post, and he may shed
some light on it.

I think this guy has now posted the same article several times into
different threads.   

>When reading this kind of stuff  I am often reminded of the statement that
>the less excellence a man is capable of in himself, the more he attempts
>to imbue in his race, his state, his fanatacism, et cetera....
>Bill

Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of, but not representing, the Irish Nationalist Network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7652
     INN page: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4496
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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