From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:20 EST 2005
Article: 1073114 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-quince!easynet.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:04:20 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <1132195425.172921.3100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132391065 27284 128.214.90.198 (19 Nov 2005 09:04:25 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2005 09:04:25 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073114

In article , Al Smith
 wrote:

> >>Well, for one thing, the problems he's gotten into for having the 
> >>>courage to state those beliefs. If Irving did not believe in what 
> >>>he wrote, he would not have caused himself all these difficulties 
> >>>by standing by it, he would have apologized and licked a few boots 
> >>>and kissed a few buttocks, and thus extracted himself from under 
> >>>the microscope of the authorities. You don't stand by and watch 
> >>>your life being destroyed by governments and police forces and the 
> >>>popular media unless you believe passionately in what you wrote.
> > 
> > 
> > Oh, puhLEASE. It's how he earns his LIVING.  What he believes
passionately in is MONEY,
> > and there are folks out there - morons all - who believe his whining
claptrap enough to
> > give it to him, as long as he can continue getting their attention.
> 
> This isn't the case. Before Irving was singled out for censure by 
> the establishment, he was a best-selling author. 

You've got it wrong. David Irving singled *himself* out for censure by
initiating a lawsuit about his work that he could not possibly win and
deciding to rely on a proven fool and incompetent to defend him in court.
David Irving, the self-taught historian brought a case against the
scholarly community of historians using the services of David Irving, the
self-taught lawyer, as his primary advocate. The man is clearly suffering
>from delusions of grandeur.

> After the 
> firestorm of criticism heaped upon him, he could not find a 
> mainstream publisher willing to publish his books. 

After demonstrating to the entire world that he was an arrogant,
mendacious twit, too stupid to hire a professional barrister to defend him
in court, no mainstream publisher would risk its reputation by publishing
material written by a man demonstrated in a court of law in a high-profile
case to be a holocaust denier, falsifier of history, and racist, a
self-taught amateur who thinks he has what it takes to challenge the
entire scholarly community of historians, and an egoist so convinced of
his legal acumen that he does not consider it necessary to use the
services provided by legal professionals.

> He was 
> prevented from doing his primary research in Germany. 

Because he misused research privileges.

> Irving has 
> lost a fortune because of his refusal to be silent about his beliefs.

Many of his beliefs have been demonstrated to be deliberate lies. He has
not been silent about them, but rather has done everything that he can to
draw attention to himself and the easily debunked lies that he
propagandizes.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:20 EST 2005
Article: 1073140 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:58:38 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <1132195425.172921.3100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132408724 1815 128.214.90.198 (19 Nov 2005 13:58:44 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2005 13:58:44 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073140

In article , "Ben Cramer"
<[REMOVE]bencramer7@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-1911051104200001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> >
> > You've got it wrong. David Irving singled *himself* out for censure by
> > initiating a lawsuit about his work that he could not possibly win and
> > deciding to rely on a proven fool and incompetent to defend him in court.
> > David Irving, the self-taught historian brought a case against the
> > scholarly community of historians using the services of David Irving, the
> > self-taught lawyer, as his primary advocate. The man is clearly suffering
> > from delusions of grandeur.
> 
> 
> And the yids provided lipstadt's publishers with over 10million dollars to 
> defend the case. 

So what? Irving has rich friends and supporters, but they were not so
stupid as to throw money at a lost cause. His downfall was completely
self-inflicted. It was his idea to pursue the matter in court, although he
surely knew that he had systematically lied about and mistranslated
historical sources, as Prof. Lipstadt claimed. He surely also knew that a
person, even if he has legal training, which Irving lacks, who defends
himself in court has a fool for a lawyer.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:20 EST 2005
Article: 1073431 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-quince!easynet.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.germany.com!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:22:08 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: <1132195425.172921.3100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132431735 8254 128.214.90.198 (19 Nov 2005 20:22:15 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2005 20:22:15 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073431

In article , "Emil
Müller"  wrote:


> >
> > You've got it wrong. David Irving singled *himself* out for censure by
> > initiating a lawsuit
> 
> Irving did not single himself out.
> 
> Irving was by Lipstadt publicly called a Holocaust denier, because he did 
> not believe in the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz nor that 
> Hitler gave the order to exterminate all Jews under German control.

At the trial it was shown that Irving had been informed that the Leuchter
Report was unreliable, and that he distanced himself from it in his
private correspondence while continuing to support its findings in public.
At the trial Irving was forced to concede that the Nazis killed people
with poison gas at Chelmno and Auschwitz. Whether Hitler ever produced a
written order to kill all Jews under German control can be argued, but to
argue that he never knew that Jews were being killed is an absurdity,
given the vast amount of resources that Nazi Germany committed to
identifying, arresting, dispossessing, concentrating, deporting,
interning, enslaving, and killing Jews. More than 10,000 concentration
camps, sub-camps, and extermination camps were designed, built, staffed,
and maintained by a gigantic bureauracy, the RSHA, and an estimated
14,000,000 people passed through them. Even a leader as slothful as Hitler
would have had to know what was demanding such a large portion of the
state budget of a country waging an all-fronts war.

> This caused Irving financial losses, so he sued Lipstadt. A very normal 
> reaction by the man in my opinion.

Not really. Irving was quite aware that he had been making a living lying
about the Holocaust, and that professor Lipstadt had nailed him. Being
nailed did indeed cause him financial losses, but he should have
understood that bringing the case to court would result in experts
revealing the dimensions of his mendaciousness. As it turned out, his
reputation as a historian was totally and publicly destroyed, since
Professor Lipstadt's defense team was able to prove to the satisfaction of
the court that Irving was an ever bigger liar and more systematic
falsifier of history than Professor Lipstadt had orginally claimed.

> [..]
> > After demonstrating to the entire world that he was an arrogant,
> > mendacious twit, too stupid to hire a professional barrister to defend him
> > in court, no mainstream publisher would risk its reputation by publishing
> > material written by a man demonstrated in a court of law in a high-profile
> > case to be a holocaust denier, falsifier of history, and racist, a
> > self-taught amateur who thinks he has what it takes to challenge the
> > entire scholarly community of historians,
> 
> Do away with the suppressive "Holocaust laws" and the "entire scholarly 
> community of historians" may change their views on the Holocaust 
> drastically.

Hardly. Even David Irving was forced to concede in court that the
Holocaust took place in essentially the same manner as mainstream
historians reconstruct it as having taken place.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:20 EST 2005
Article: 1073484 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:03:22 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 11
Message-ID: 
References: <1132195425.172921.3100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>            <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com>             <1132436000.765646.57560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132445010 11875 128.214.90.198 (20 Nov 2005 00:03:30 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2005 00:03:30 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073484

In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> He will never point you there it would be un Jewish to tell the truth.



Wie oft muß ich Dir noch sagen, daß ich kein Jude bin,  war, oder sein werde?

Mit freunddlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:21 EST 2005
Article: 1073486 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!mtu.ru!image.surnet.ru!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.osn.de!diablo1-ffm.news.osn.de!news.germany.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:04:12 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 11
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132445060 12028 128.214.90.198 (20 Nov 2005 00:04:20 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2005 00:04:20 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073486

In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> He will never point you there it would be un Jewish to tell the truth.



Wie oft muß ich Dir noch sagen, daß ich kein Jude bin,  war, oder sein werde?

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:21 EST 2005
Article: 1073529 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cw.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.de!uio.no!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:51:35 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <1132195425.172921.3100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com>     
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132458703 15535 128.214.90.198 (20 Nov 2005 03:51:43 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2005 03:51:43 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073529

In article , "Ben Cramer"
<[REMOVE]bencramer7@gmail.com> wrote:


> >
> >  He sued the publisher. Did you think they weren't going to defend
> >  themselves? (I shouldn't even ask, of course you do. That's just how
> >  twisted your belief system is.)
> 
> And the yids provided the publisher with the financial backing to make, what 
> should have been a very simple 2 day case, into a case blown out of all 
> proportion.
> 
> If it had been "Joe Bloggs" making the claim, the publishers would have paid 
> up and that would have been an end to it.

The publishers?

€ David Irving manipulated and lied about historical sources.
€ Professor Deborah Lipstadt pointed this out in a book published by
Penguin Books, calling him a liar and falsifier of history.
€ David Irving took umbrage at Professor Lipstadt's claims, and brought
suit against her.
€ The court not only determined that Professor Lipstadt's claims were
valid, but was also presented with evidence that David Irving was a far
greater liar and falsifier of history than even Professor Lipstadt had
claimed.

So, why, in your opinion, should the *publishers* have paid up when it was
made abundantly clear that the book that they had published had
*understated* the case against David Irving?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:21 EST 2005
Article: 1073592 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!63.218.45.10.MISMATCH!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:51:31 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References:    <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com>     <1132436000.765646.57560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <3m8vn19aeqo9n259i3jtmuvm6fnatd6bap@4ax.com> <1132449524.147705.147490@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132480293 20852 128.214.90.198 (20 Nov 2005 09:51:33 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2005 09:51:33 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073592

In article <1132449524.147705.147490@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
david_michael@onetel.net.uk wrote:


> > >> At the trial Irving was forced to concede that the Nazis killed people
> > >> with poison gas at Chelmno and Auschwitz.
> >
> > >I would love to see the argument that 'forced him' to 'concede' this.
> >
> > But not enough, apparently, to actually look at the trial transcripts,
> > freely available on the web
> >
> > >Could you perhaps point me to it please?

The trabscripts are at http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/ieindex.html,
but they are quite prolix. The relevant points are summarized in the
judgment.

Source: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/judgmentsfiles/j22/queen_irving.htm



6.71 The experimental use of the gas vans continued. In November 1941 30
prisoners were killed by exhaust fumes from a van at Sachsenhausen. There
was debate in the course of the evidence about the number of vans employed
and their killing capacity. Longerich maintained that a minimum of six
vans were used. Irving suggested only three were ever built. The
Defendants adduced in evidence a report from a sergeant in the motor pool
dated 5 June 1942, which records that 97,000 had been killed by means of
the use of three vans over the preceding six months. Irving made a number
of observations about the document designed, as he put it, to plant
suspicion about it. For instance he queried how 97,000 could have been
killed over that period, when according to court records only 700 were
killed in gas vans in an action "lasting several days" at the end of
November 1991. The figure of 97,000 struck Browning as perfectly feasible.
He testified that the carrying capacity of the vans ranged from 30 to 80
people and that the arithmetic indicates that the three vans would have
been capable of putting 97,000 to death in a period of 172 days. As to the
700 killed over several days at the end of November 1941, Longerich
explained that after a period of experimentation, the Nazis improved their
technique. In the end Irving accepted the authenticity of the sergeant's
report.

7.11 In the course of the trial Irving modified his position: he was
prepared to concede that gassing of human beings had taken place at
Auschwitz but on a limited scale. However, he continued to assert that it
was not a death factory (totesfabrik). He maintained that there is
certainly no question of 500,000 Jews having perished in morgue 1 of
crematorium 2 as the Defendants contend.




> 
> Oh well, I suppose that nonsense post was intended to give Holman a
> chance to avoid answering the points I raised. Pity.

If you want Irving's precise words, read the transcripts for days 17 and
20, at http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/ieindex.html.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:21 EST 2005
Article: 1073593 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's a Jerk
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:59:35 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 117
Message-ID: 
References:    <11nst64drede751@corp.supernews.com>     <1132436000.765646.57560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <3m8vn19aeqo9n259i3jtmuvm6fnatd6bap@4ax.com> <1132449524.147705.147490@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132480777 20853 128.214.90.198 (20 Nov 2005 09:59:37 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2005 09:59:37 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1073593

In article <1132449524.147705.147490@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
david_michael@onetel.net.uk wrote:

> Roger wrote:
> > In one age, called the Second Age by some,
> >    (an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
> >       someone claiming to be david_michael@onetel.net.uk wrote
> >          in message
> > <1132436000.765646.57560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
> >
> > >Eugene Holman wrote:



> > >> Hardly. Even David Irving was forced to concede in court that the
> > >> Holocaust took place in essentially the same manner as mainstream
> > >> historians reconstruct it as having taken place.
> >
> > >I must have missed that bit too. Do you perchance have a reference for
> > >this 'concession'?
> >
> > Same as before.
> 
> Oh well, I suppose that nonsense post was intended to give Holman a
> chance to avoid answering the points I raised. Pity.

Here are David Irving's concessions, as understood by the court.

Source: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/judgmentsfiles/j22/queen_irving.htm



Irving's concessions

13.152 It was a striking feature of the case that in the course of it
Irving made, or appeared to make, concessions about major issues. In doing
so he resiled from the stance adopted by him in relation to those issues
before trial. Such concessions were made by Irving in relation to the
shooting of Jews in the East; the use of gas vans at Chelmno and in
Yugoslavia; the gassing of Jews at the Action Reinhard camps; the
existence and genocidal use of gas chambers at Auschwitz and the Leuchter
report.

13.153 Thus the Defendants contend that, having previously asserted that
the shooting of Jews in the East was generally unauthorised and carried
out by small bands of criminals with Hitler's partial knowledge but
without any order from him, Irving accepted at trial that perhaps as many
as 1.5 million Jews were killed on the authority of Heydrich and on a
systematic basis. He conceded also that Hitler not only knew of the
shooting of the Jews in the East but also sanctioned their murder. He
agreed that Hitler had taken the initiative in ridding the Altreich of
Jews. Irving's concessions on these issues were in stark contrast to his
case as it stood before trial.

13. 154 At a later stage in the trial, however, Irving retracted, as least
in part, the concessions he had made. He partially withdrew his acceptance
of Hitler's responsibility for the shooting. In a written submission
Irving argued that the treatment of deported Jews suggested a lack of
system and co-ordination and that there was no clear and unambiguous
evidence of Hitler's awareness of the mass murder in the East of European
Jews. Irving claimed that he had adopted the position before trial that
the killing of the Jews in the East had been largely systematic and much
of it had been carried out under orders. He claimed that there was no
significant shift of position on his part. But it appears to me that
Irving did shift his ground in a significant way in the course of the
trial, especially in regard to Hitler's authorisation of the killing.

13.155 In regard to the use of gas vans, Irving was prepared before trial
to accept no more than that there had been an "alleged liquidation" of
152,000 Jews at Chelmno and that gas vans had been used on an experimental
basis and on very limited scale. At trial he accepted that there had been
a systematic use of gas vans at the camp; that in one relatively short
period 97,000 Jews had been murdered there and that he had been wrong to
say that the use of the vans was experimental. He also accepted that the
Nazis used gas vans to kill Jews in Yugoslavia instead of shooting them.
Irving's explanation for these changes in his case was that he was making
admissions in order to deal with the issues expeditiously.

13.156 In relation to the Reinhard camps, having claimed before the trial
that there were no gas chambers at Treblinka, Sobibor or Belzec, Irving
accepted at trial that he could not challenge the accepted figures for the
numbers of Jews killed at those camps which were 700-950,000,200,000 and
550,000 respectively. He again later explained his concessions as having
been made "formally" in order to speed the trial along, adding later that
he had seen no documentary evidence to support the figures for those
killed. I have already given my reaction to that response.

13.157 I have earlier summarised the manner in which Irving altered his
position in relation to the number of Jews killed there by gas but also to
the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz. On both these issues
there was in my view a radical shift of ground. Irving says that he has
always accepted that many Jews were killed at Auschwitz. So he has, but
not by gassing.

13.158 I have also described Irving's concessions in relation to the
Leuchter report: see paragraph 7.89. Irving had previously expressed the
view that the conclusions of the report were irrefutable. At trial, as has
been seen, he agreed without any great protest that the vast majority of
Leuchter's findings were wrong and the report was fundamentally flawed.

13.159 What is the significance of these alterations in Irving's stance in
relation to the issue with which I am at present concerned with, namely
Irving's motivation? It seems to me that the Defendants are justified in
their contention that Irving's readiness to resile from positions he had
adopted in what he has written and said about important aspects of the
Holocaust demonstrates his willingness to make assertions about the Nazi
era which, as he must appreciate, are irreconcilable with the available
evidence. I also consider that there is force in the Defendants'
contention that Irving's retraction of some of his concessions, made when
he was confronted with the evidence relied on by the Defendants, manifests
a determination to adhere to his preferred version of history, even if the
evidence does not support it.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:22 EST 2005
Article: 1074338 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news3.google.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: David Irving ­ in tiefster Scheiße
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:06:13 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132689980 28432 128.214.90.198 (22 Nov 2005 20:06:20 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 2005 20:06:20 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1074338

Source:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/22/austria.irving.ap/index.html


 
Historian charged over Holocaust


VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- British historian David Irving was charged Tuesday
with violating an Austrian law that makes Holocaust denial in this
formerly Nazi-ruled nation a crime.

Irving, a controversial Third Reich scholar who has claimed that Adolf
Hitler knew nothing about the systematic slaughter of 6 million Jews, is
accused of giving two speeches in 1989 in which he denied the existence of
Nazi gas chambers during World War II, prosecutor Otto Schneider said.
He was arrested November 11 in the southern province of Styria on a
warrant issued in 1989. If convicted, he faces up to 10 years in prison.
Irving, 67, remains in custody in Vienna. His attorney, Elmar Kresbach,
said he would decide how to proceed after discussing the charges with his
client Wednesday.

A detention hearing will be held Friday to determine whether Irving should
be held for up to four more weeks, Schneider said.

After his arrest, Irving supporters posted a statement on his Web site
saying he was detained while on a one-day visit to Vienna, where they said
he had been invited "by courageous students to address an ancient
university association."
Irving in the past has faced allegations of spreading anti-Semitic and
racist ideas. He is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's
War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

Besides his assertion that Hitler knew nothing about the Holocaust, he
also has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" that
the Nazis carried out their "Final Solution" to exterminate the Jewish
population on such a massive scale.

The right-wing historian has said he does not deny Jews were killed by the
Nazis, but challenges the number and manner of Jewish concentration camp
deaths.
He has questioned the use of large-scale gas chambers to exterminate the
Jews and has claimed that the numbers of those who perished are far lower
than those generally accepted. He also contends that most Jews who died at
Auschwitz did so from diseases like typhus, not gas poisoning.

Irving has had numerous run-ins with the law over the years. In 1992, a
judge in Germany fined him the equivalent of $6,000 for publicly insisting
the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.

In March, more than 200 historians from around the world petitioned the
C-SPAN television network to cancel a project that would have included a
speech by Irving as a counterpoint to a lecture by Deborah Lipstadt, a
Holocaust expert.
Irving once sued Lipstadt for libel for calling him a Holocaust denier.
The British court handling the case in 2000 declared that Irving could be
labeled as such, and that he was anti-Semitic, racist and misrepresented
historical information.




From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:22 EST 2005
Article: 1074343 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.cw.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.de!news.germany.com!newsfeed3.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_David_Irving_=AD_in_tiefster_Schei=DFe?=
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:14:57 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 13
Message-ID: 
References:  <1132690250.051240.98510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1132690504 28581 128.214.90.198 (22 Nov 2005 20:15:04 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 2005 20:15:04 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1074343

In article <1132690250.051240.98510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Joe
Bruno"  wrote:


> 
> One of my favorite pieces was written by one of your countrymen.
> Finlandia.(Sibelius)

Kiva kuulla!
(Pun: nice to hear/listen to).

Terveisiä Suomesta/Greetings from Finland,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:22 EST 2005
Article: 1075953 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!bowmore.utu.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ping Kenneth McVey
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:24:59 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 238
Message-ID: 
References: <1132596479.191532.47560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1132683717.255702.17940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   <11o7bhmh52jqfd2@corp.supernews.com> <1132704365.085034.284150@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6pt7o1d0e5tm5c4kh1n8rnca8es5rp9iqa@4ax.com> <6uKdndcwJb00nBnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1132781945.886371.37530@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132795653.960877.199430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132871095.228919.70490@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1133126888.136859.11360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133162702 15312 128.214.90.198 (28 Nov 2005 07:25:02 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2005 07:25:02 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1075953

In article <1133126888.136859.11360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "The
most dangerous snake on the Internet" 
wrote:

> Kenneth, any chance of that archival reference for those tattooed
> pieces of skin you said are in NARA or were you just hate-mongering
> again.


A reposting from June 24, 2000.

Source:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/1af5851d533ca50a?dmode=source


From: hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Subject: Re: Heyward on Soap
Date: 2000/06/24
Message-ID: 
X-Deja-AN: 638453388
References: <3954ad0e.67224893@netnews.att.net>
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961858934 22766 128.214.79.7 (24 Jun 2000
15:02:14 GMT)
Organization: University of Helsinki
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 15:02:14 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism

In article <3954ad0e.67224...@netnews.att.net>,
c.r.carpen...@worldnet.att.net (Chris Carpenter) wrote:
> For example, for almost
>              fifty years it was claimed (and is still claimed by many
> non-specialists) that the skin of
>              murdered Jews was tanned by certain Nazis and used to
> make book covers and lamp
>              shades.

It was more than a 'claim'.

The allegation was focused on precisely one Nazi-run concentration camp,
Buchenwald, and the items in question were found in the possession of Ilse
Koch, the wife of the commendant. And the claim was not made about the
skin of 'murdered Jews', it was made about the skin of dead concentration
camp inmates who happened to have interesting tattoos. You have set up a
straw man based on sensationalization and popularization which is easily
knocked down by a half hour of serious research

The allegation that Nazis made objects out of the tattooed skin of dead
inmates derives primarily from two sources:

1. A statement submitted by a Canadian diplomat in conjunction with the
liberation of the camp:

Source: National Archives of Canada, File 1426-P-40
Websource:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/buchenwald/diplomatic/georges-vanier.042745
 
AMBASSADE DU CANADA                      CANADIAN EMBASSY
    PARIS    [Seal]              PARIS
 
 
            27th April, 1945.
 
No. 548
 
Sir,
 
Will you please refer to my telegram No. 299, dated 24th
April, which relates to my visit to Buchenwald camp.
 
2. In company with eight members of the United States
Congress, I left London for Weimar on Sunday morning, the
22nd. April. The names of the Congressmen, and of the States
for which they sit, follow:
 
  Marion T. BENNETT, Springfield, Illinois
  Gordon CANFIELD, Peterson, New Jersey
  Henry M. JACKSON, Everett, Washington
  Carter MANASCO, Jasper, Alabama
  Albert RAINS, 5th District Alabama, Gadsden, Alabama
  Francis E. WALTER, Easton, Pennsylvania
  Earl WILSON, Huron, Indiana
  Eugene WORLEY, Shannock, Texas
 
Half were Democrats, the others Republicans, but whatever
their political differences may have been, they were of one
mind and one will after the visit, about the necessity for
taking any measures, however drastic, which might be required
to prevent a recurrence of crimes against humanity.

[OMISSIONS]
7. In the improvised hospitals were hundreds of men, some with
running sores, their bodies so devoid of flesh that they could
not lie for long in one position. Some who were able to stand
were little more than skin and bones. One marvelled how the
knee and ankle joints held together.
 
8. We say several hundred children, most of them Polish Jews;
some had been in prison camps for years. Those of ten and over
worked as slave labourers on munitions. Not one, so far as I
know, had any idea of where his parents were; in view of the
barbarous treatment inflicted on Poles and Jews by the
Germans, it is probable that all have been done to death.
 
9. A lampshade was found - and this I saw - made from tattooed
human skin.

 [OMISSIONS]
        I have the honour to be,
            Sir,
        Your obedient servant,
        [s/ Georges Vanier]
        CANADIAN AMBASSADOR
 
**************************************************************

2. Evidence presented at the trial of Ilse Koch determined by a US Army
pathologist to be human skin:

[BEGIN QUOTE]
Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/nca/nca-06/nca-06-3423-ps
Archive/File: imt/nca/nca-06 nca-06-3423-ps
Last-Modified:  1997/01/03
 
          Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6
 
                                        [Page 123]
 
                          COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS
 
                SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
              APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.
 
Section of Pathology
25 May 1945
 
SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides
 
TO:  COMMANDING GENERAL,  Third U.S. Army)
 
              (ATTN:  JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)
 
1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for
  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
  81 T.J.A.
 
                                        [Page 124]
 
2.  The description follows:
 
GROSS:  Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.
 
PIECE A:  Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.
 
PIECE B:  Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass.  To the right of this mass
is a man's head.
 
PIECE C:  Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base.  The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm.  The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area.  These are 16
cm. Apart.  From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part.  A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin.  To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.
 
MICROSCOPIC:  The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants.  Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.
 
3.  Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
  specimens are tattooed human skin.
 
For the Commanding Officer,
 
                            [signed]  REUBEN CARES
                                      Ruben Cares
                    Major M.C., Chief of pathology
[END QUOTE]

Frau Koch never denied that they were made of human skin at her trial. As
I wrote in a recent posting, three of the objects made of human skin which
were exhibited as evidence at the Ilse Koch trial remain stored as holding
RG 153, Entry 321-B, FRG Box 1089
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/humanskin/IlseKoch1.html]
at the The National Archives in College Park, Maryland, as "a human
skin lampshade, or part of one," from the Nazi concentration camp at
Buchenwald. Another is in the holdings of the National Museum of Health
and Medicine in Washington D.C.

The existence of such objects and the fact that they were in the
possession of Ilse Koch was thus demonstrated to the satisfaction of an
American court of law.

*********************************************************

> Physical samples of these human-skin products
> were even produced at the
>              International military tribunal, and eyewitnesses came
> forward to testify that they had
>              seen these atrocities occurring. It is now known,
> however, that the samples produced as
>              evidence were made of goat skin and the testimonies of
> the eyewitnesses were
>              fraudulent.

Please produce evidence to this effect. The human skin artefacts remain in
the holdings of the National Archives and the National Museum of Health
and Medicine. General Lucius Clay is known to have stated in an interview
given many years after the trial that the objects were goat skin, but
there is no corroberation of this, and the interview in which he made this
statement abounds in factual errors, perhaps resulting from incipient
senility. Frau Koch never denied the human proveance of the objects in
question.

The most important point to be made here is that you uncritically confuse
'popular' and uninformed views on the Holocaust with serious research. The
artefacts made of human skin atest to the low value placed by certain
Nazis at one specific camp on human life or the dignity of a person's
remains, but they otherwise have nothing to do with the systematic process
by which the Nazis identified, rounded up, interned, and then eslaved or
killed outright millions of European Jews.

Regards,
Eugene Holman



From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:23 EST 2005
Article: 1076246 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!green.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ping Kenneth McVey
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:51:58 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 118
Message-ID: 
References: <1132596479.191532.47560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1132683717.255702.17940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   <11o7bhmh52jqfd2@corp.supernews.com> <1132704365.085034.284150@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6pt7o1d0e5tm5c4kh1n8rnca8es5rp9iqa@4ax.com> <6uKdndcwJb00nBnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1132781945.886371.37530@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132795653.960877.199430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132871095.228919.70490@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1133126888.136859.11360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>  <1133208726.567752.174970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133261521 15162 128.214.90.198 (29 Nov 2005 10:52:01 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:52:01 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076246

In article <1133208726.567752.174970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "The
most dangerous snake on the Internet" 
wrote:

> "Please produce evidence to this effect. The human skin artefacts
> remain in
> the holdings of the National Archives and the National Museum of Health
> 
> and Medicine. General Lucius Clay is known to have stated in an
> interview
> given many years after the trial that the objects were goat skin, but
> there is no corroberation of this"
> 
> Please produce evidence to the effect that human skin artefacts remain
> in the holdings of the National Archives, Eugene.  This is the exact
> question I am asking Kennie and now I can ask you.  Waffling on for
> paragraphs does not hide the fact that you are evading the central
> issue.

I was not evading the central issue at all, but rather providing necessary
context:

1. George Vanier's diplomatic message of 27th April, 1945 to the Canadian
embassy in France about the presence of human skin artefacts at the
Buchenwald Camp is the first mention of alleged human skin artefacts by an
independent source.

2. Reuben Care's May 25, 1945 report of a pathological investigation of
these artefacts, which were used as evidence at the trial of Ilse Koch,
states under the name of the US Army's Seventh Medical Laboratory thatr
the objects ibn question were "tattooed human skin".

3. Ilse Koch's defense never denied that the objects in question were
tattooed human skin.

4. As is the case with important physical evidence, the artefacts are now
in the possession of The National Archives in College Park, Maryland RG
153, Entry 321-B, FRG Box 1089, as well as in the holdings of the the
National Museum of
Health and Medicine.                        

> You say the human skin artefacts are in the archives - what is your
> proof for this statement, eg. an accession number.

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec67.html

                       
Secrecy & Government Bulletin
                       
Issue Number 67
May 1997
                       
Rethinking Intelligence
                       
More bizarre things are turning up as researchers begin to wade through
declassified files. Lately, archivists have discovered human body parts
maintained as "federal records" in government storage facilities, as reported in
the Jewish newspaper Forward (4/4/97, p. 5). The National Archives in
College Park, Maryland, has identified "a human skin lampshade, or part of
one," from the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald. The National Museum of
Health and Medicine holds three pieces of tattooed human skin, also from
Buchenwald. 


> 
> Or should I just rock up to NARA and tell them its next to where they
> keep the shrunken heads, the lampshades and the bars of soap?

No claim was made about bars of soap. Objects initially alleged to be
human skin artefacts from Buchenwald that were then proven to be so by a
US Army pathologist were presented as evidence in the trial of Ilse Koch
and have since been archived and used as a museum exhibit. 



If you are not satisfied with my account of the provenance and nature of
the artefacts, please contact The National Archives
(http://www.archives.gov/dc-metro/college-park/) and The National Museum
of Health and Medicine (http://nmhm.washingtondc.museum/) for further
details.


According to the website of the latter museum:

Source: http://nmhm.washingtondc.museum/about/faq/


6. Does the museum have remains from World War II concentration camps?

Yes. The museum holds five pieces of tattooed human skin that were
obtained from the pathology laboratory at the Buchenwald concentration
camp when it was liberated. The records concerning the specimens are
thorough, and testing of three specimens confirms they are human, although
we cannot say with certainty if they were obtained from prisoners or if
they existed before the war. (Because of religious restrictions on
tattooing, we believe it is unlikely that the specimens were taken from
Jewish prisoners.) A memorandum of May 18, 1945 from the Office of the
Chief Surgeon, U.S. Army, to the War Crimes Commission, expresses the
interest of the Army Medical Museum/Army Institute of Pathology (today's
National Museum of Health and Medicine of the Armed Forces Institute of
Pathology) to receive "dried human skin" from Buchenwald after it is no
longer needed by the commission in the Nazi war crimes trials. Also in the
museum's collection is a wax-impregnated half-head preparation. The
provenance information on this specimen is less certain, but it may have
come from Dachau. There has been extensive media coverage of the
specimens; most notably when The Washington Post printed an 80-paragraph
story with five photos on June 24, 2001 and when FOX 5 TV station WTTG in
Washington, D.C. broadcast a 9-minute program on Nov. 18, 2003 called
"Remains of the Holocaust" that included footage of the museum's
specimens. A transcript of the Fox 5 program can be seen online at
www.fox5dc.com/_ezpost/data/1675.shtml.


If you think that the museum is mistaken or deliberately spreading false
information, take it up with them.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:23 EST 2005
Article: 1076249 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.glorb.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ping Kenneth McVey
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:57:22 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 119
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133261845 15162 128.214.90.198 (29 Nov 2005 10:57:25 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:57:25 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076249

In article <1133208726.567752.174970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "The
most dangerous snake on the Internet" 
wrote:

> "Please produce evidence to this effect. The human skin artefacts
> remain in
> the holdings of the National Archives and the National Museum of Health
> 
> and Medicine. General Lucius Clay is known to have stated in an
> interview
> given many years after the trial that the objects were goat skin, but
> there is no corroberation of this"
> 
> Please produce evidence to the effect that human skin artefacts remain
> in the holdings of the National Archives, Eugene.  This is the exact
> question I am asking Kennie and now I can ask you.  Waffling on for
> paragraphs does not hide the fact that you are evading the central
> issue.

I was not evading the central issue at all, but rather providing necessary
context:

1. George Vanier's diplomatic message of 27th April, 1945 to the Canadian
embassy in France about the presence of human skin artefacts at the
Buchenwald Camp is the first mention of alleged human skin artefacts by an
independent source.

2. Reuben Care's May 25, 1945 report of a pathological investigation of
these artefacts, which were used as evidence at the trial of Ilse Koch,
states under the name of the US Army's Seventh Medical Laboratory that
the objects in question were "tattooed human skin".

3. Ilse Koch's defense never denied that or even questioned whether the
objects in question were tattooed human skin.

4. As is the case with important physical evidence, the artefacts are now
in the possession of The National Archives in College Park, Maryland RG
153, Entry 321-B, FRG Box 1089, as well as in the holdings of the the
National Museum of Health and Medicine.                        

> You say the human skin artefacts are in the archives - what is your
> proof for this statement, eg. an accession number.

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec67.html

                       
Secrecy & Government Bulletin
                       
Issue Number 67
May 1997
                       
Rethinking Intelligence
                       
More bizarre things are turning up as researchers begin to wade through
declassified files. Lately, archivists have discovered human body parts
maintained as "federal records" in government storage facilities, as reported in
the Jewish newspaper Forward (4/4/97, p. 5). The National Archives in
College Park, Maryland, has identified "a human skin lampshade, or part of
one," from the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald. The National Museum of
Health and Medicine holds three pieces of tattooed human skin, also from
Buchenwald. 


> 
> Or should I just rock up to NARA and tell them its next to where they
> keep the shrunken heads, the lampshades and the bars of soap?

No claim was made about bars of soap. Objects initially alleged to be
human skin artefacts from Buchenwald that were then proven to be so by a
US Army pathologist were presented as evidence in the trial of Ilse Koch
and have since been archived at The National Archives and used as a museum
exhibit at the National Museum of Health and Medicine (see below for their
own statement). 



If you are not satisfied with my account of the provenance and nature of
the artefacts, please contact The National Archives
(http://www.archives.gov/dc-metro/college-park/) and The National Museum
of Health and Medicine (http://nmhm.washingtondc.museum/) for further
details.


According to the website of the latter museum:

Source: http://nmhm.washingtondc.museum/about/faq/


6. Does the museum have remains from World War II concentration camps?

Yes. The museum holds five pieces of tattooed human skin that were
obtained from the pathology laboratory at the Buchenwald concentration
camp when it was liberated. The records concerning the specimens are
thorough, and testing of three specimens confirms they are human, although
we cannot say with certainty if they were obtained from prisoners or if
they existed before the war. (Because of religious restrictions on
tattooing, we believe it is unlikely that the specimens were taken from
Jewish prisoners.) A memorandum of May 18, 1945 from the Office of the
Chief Surgeon, U.S. Army, to the War Crimes Commission, expresses the
interest of the Army Medical Museum/Army Institute of Pathology (today's
National Museum of Health and Medicine of the Armed Forces Institute of
Pathology) to receive "dried human skin" from Buchenwald after it is no
longer needed by the commission in the Nazi war crimes trials. Also in the
museum's collection is a wax-impregnated half-head preparation. The
provenance information on this specimen is less certain, but it may have
come from Dachau. There has been extensive media coverage of the
specimens; most notably when The Washington Post printed an 80-paragraph
story with five photos on June 24, 2001 and when FOX 5 TV station WTTG in
Washington, D.C. broadcast a 9-minute program on Nov. 18, 2003 called
"Remains of the Holocaust" that included footage of the museum's
specimens. A transcript of the Fox 5 program can be seen online at
www.fox5dc.com/_ezpost/data/1675.shtml.


If you think that the museum is mistaken or deliberately spreading false
information, take it up with them.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:24 EST 2005
Article: 1076321 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news4.google.com!news2.volia.net!news.germany.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:26:18 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133281582 21600 128.214.90.198 (29 Nov 2005 16:26:22 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 2005 16:26:22 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076321


Source: http://nmhm.washingtondc.museum/about/faq/


6. Does the museum have remains from World War II concentration camps?

Yes. The museum holds five pieces of tattooed human skin that were
obtained from the pathology laboratory at the Buchenwald concentration
camp when it was liberated. The records concerning the specimens are
thorough, and testing of three specimens confirms they are human, although
we cannot say with certainty if they were obtained from prisoners or if
they existed before the war. (Because of religious restrictions on
tattooing, we believe it is unlikely that the specimens were taken from
Jewish prisoners.) A memorandum of May 18, 1945 from the Office of the
Chief Surgeon, U.S. Army, to the War Crimes Commission, expresses the
interest of the Army Medical Museum/Army Institute of Pathology (today's
National Museum of Health and Medicine of the Armed Forces Institute of
Pathology) to receive "dried human skin" from Buchenwald after it is no
longer needed by the commission in the Nazi war crimes trials. Also in the
museum's collection is a wax-impregnated half-head preparation. The
provenance information on this specimen is less certain, but it may have
come from Dachau. There has been extensive media coverage of the
specimens; most notably when The Washington Post printed an 80-paragraph
story with five photos on June 24, 2001 and when FOX 5 TV station WTTG in
Washington, D.C. broadcast a 9-minute program on Nov. 18, 2003 called
"Remains of the Holocaust" that included footage of the museum's
specimens. A transcript of the Fox 5 program can be seen online at
www.fox5dc.com/_ezpost/data/1675.shtml.


If you think that the museum is mistaken or deliberately spreading false
information, take it up with them.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:24 EST 2005
Article: 1076428 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:28:57 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 86
Message-ID: 
References:  <1133284709.377342.117690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1133295684.859907.310050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133310543 526 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 00:29:03 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 00:29:03 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076428

In article <1133295684.859907.310050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Gassen Burnham"  wrote:

> You old wet blanket, Gus.
> 
> Eugene has this belief system, his fragile and hate filled view of the
> world is based entirely on it.

There is no belief system here, but rather the ability to draw conclusions
>from empirical evidence.
 
> Every serving of corn bread and chitlins he had as a kid, came with a
> lecture on how 'Da whitey has kicked yo peoples ass'.

I never had corn bread or chitlins as a kid, nor was I subjected to
lectures of the type you depict. Rather, I grew up in New York during the
1950s and 60s, a time when a substantial portion of the city's population
was Holocaust survivors or relatives of Holocaust victims. The trial of
Adolf Eichmann in 1961 was one of the defining moments of my youth.
 
> This is why he is fundamentaly susceptable to jewish folk law and sees
> it as more than just a collection of tall legends.

Unh, no. I am old enough to have knoiwn people who were there when it happened.
 
> Now you come along and tear his nest down!!!
> 
> Shame on you.
> 
> Never mind Eugene, I believe the Tibetan Yeti is in need of supporters
> and it's existence is easier proved than the mythelogical six million.

Source: http://www.ww4report.com/node/1319


Is David Irving recanting his Holocaust denial? 

Submitted by David Bloom on Sat, 11/26/2005 - 00:30.

David Irving, the self-trained British "historian" currently cooling his
heels in an Austrian jail cell, appears to have recanted his denial of the
Nazi Judeocide. The Nov.5 UK Guardian reports that a "repented" Irving
plans to plead guilty to charges he lied about the Holocaust during
speeches in Austria 16 years ago, violating a 1947 Austrian law banning
Nazi revivalism and criminalising belittling or justifying the crimes of
the Third Reich. Irving claimed at the time there were no gas chambers at
the Auschwitz death camp, something he first said publicly at the 1988
trial of his friend Ernst Zundel, currently on trial as well in Germany
for Holocaust denial. According to his lawyer Elmar Kresbach, Irving said,
"I fully accept this, it's a fact. The discussion on Auschwitz, the gas
chambers and the Holocaust is finished ... it's useless to dispute it."
Kresbach added:

"Irving told me that he has changed his views after researching in the
Russian archives in the 1990s. He said, 'I've repented. I've no intention
of repeating these views. That would be historically stupid and I'm not a
stupid man'."
If Irving indeed changed his views during the 1990's, he's taken a long
time to say so publicly. In fact he has been a leading force behind
organizing Holocaust revisionist conferences in recent years. Doubtless
many of his revisionist colleagues will be thrown into a tizzy by his
jailhouse confession.
In concluding remarks during Irving's spectacularly unsuccessful libel
suit against historian Deborah Lipstadt, which ended in 2000, Justice
Charles Gray found that:

Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately
misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same
reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light,
principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the
treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is
anti-Semitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists
who promote neo-Nazism.
Let the last word go to Irving. The following ditty was sung by Irving
while pushing his baby in a stroller in the park, according to his
diaries:

I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:24 EST 2005
Article: 1076429 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!216.196.98.141!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:32:13 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 89
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133310739 526 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 00:32:19 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 00:32:19 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076429

In article <1133295684.859907.310050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Gassen Burnham"  wrote:

> You old wet blanket, Gus.
> 
> Eugene has this belief system, his fragile and hate filled view of the
> world is based entirely on it.

There is no belief system here, but rather the ability to draw conclusions
>from empirical evidence.
 
> Every serving of corn bread and chitlins he had as a kid, came with a
> lecture on how 'Da whitey has kicked yo peoples ass'.

I never had corn bread or chitlins as a kid, nor was I subjected to
lectures of the type you depict. Rather, I grew up in New York during the
1950s and 60s, a time when a substantial portion of the city's population
was Holocaust survivors or relatives of Holocaust victims. The trial of
Adolf Eichmann in 1961 was one of the defining moments of my youth.
 
> This is why he is fundamentaly susceptable to jewish folk law and sees
> it as more than just a collection of tall legends.

Unh, no. I am old enough to have known and grown up among people who were
there when it happened.
 
> Now you come along and tear his nest down!!!
> 
> Shame on you.
> 
> Never mind Eugene, I believe the Tibetan Yeti is in need of supporters
> and it's existence is easier proved than the mythelogical six million.

That's *mythological*, pal.

Source: http://www.ww4report.com/node/1319


Is David Irving recanting his Holocaust denial? 

Submitted by David Bloom on Sat, 11/26/2005 - 00:30.

David Irving, the self-trained British "historian" currently cooling his
heels in an Austrian jail cell, appears to have recanted his denial of the
Nazi Judeocide. The Nov.5 UK Guardian reports that a "repented" Irving
plans to plead guilty to charges he lied about the Holocaust during
speeches in Austria 16 years ago, violating a 1947 Austrian law banning
Nazi revivalism and criminalising belittling or justifying the crimes of
the Third Reich. Irving claimed at the time there were no gas chambers at
the Auschwitz death camp, something he first said publicly at the 1988
trial of his friend Ernst Zundel, currently on trial as well in Germany
for Holocaust denial. According to his lawyer Elmar Kresbach, Irving said,
"I fully accept this, it's a fact. The discussion on Auschwitz, the gas
chambers and the Holocaust is finished ... it's useless to dispute it."
Kresbach added:

"Irving told me that he has changed his views after researching in the
Russian archives in the 1990s. He said, 'I've repented. I've no intention
of repeating these views. That would be historically stupid and I'm not a
stupid man'."
If Irving indeed changed his views during the 1990's, he's taken a long
time to say so publicly. In fact he has been a leading force behind
organizing Holocaust revisionist conferences in recent years. Doubtless
many of his revisionist colleagues will be thrown into a tizzy by his
jailhouse confession.
In concluding remarks during Irving's spectacularly unsuccessful libel
suit against historian Deborah Lipstadt, which ended in 2000, Justice
Charles Gray found that:

Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately
misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same
reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light,
principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the
treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is
anti-Semitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists
who promote neo-Nazism.
Let the last word go to Irving. The following ditty was sung by Irving
while pushing his baby in a stroller in the park, according to his
diaries:

I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:24 EST 2005
Article: 1076478 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news3.google.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:06:09 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 203
Message-ID: 
References:  <1133284709.377342.117690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1133295684.859907.310050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  <1133318502.616863.173780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133334376 6798 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 07:06:16 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 07:06:16 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076478

In article <1133318502.616863.173780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:



> So let's look at the evidence.  The only existing hard evidence is a
> small number (I think five) of assorted irregular sections of tattooed
> human skin of unknown origin.  That's all the hard evidence that
> exists, all the hard evidence that ever existed.  There are no existing
> lampshades, or handbags, or gloves, or book covers made of human skin
> anywhere, and none were ever presented in evidence at any court or
> hearing.  

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec67.html

                       
Secrecy & Government Bulletin
                       
Issue Number 67
May 1997
                       
Rethinking Intelligence
                       
More bizarre things are turning up as researchers begin to wade through
declassified files. Lately, archivists have discovered human body parts
maintained as "federal records" in government storage facilities, as reported in
the Jewish newspaper Forward (4/4/97, p. 5). The National Archives in
College Park, Maryland, has identified "a human skin lampshade, or part of
one," from the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald. The National Museum of
Health and Medicine holds three pieces of tattooed human skin, also from
Buchenwald. 



Three of the objects made of human skin which were exhibited as evidence
at the Ilse Koch trial remain stored as holding RG 153, Entry 321-B, FRG
Box 1089
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/humanskin/IlseKoch1.html]
at the The National Archives in College Park, Maryland, as "a human
skin lampshade, or part of one," from the Nazi concentration camp at
Buchenwald.

The first claim of their existence is contained in Canadian diplomatic
correspondence:

Source: National Archives of Canada, File 1426-P-40
Websource:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/buchenwald/diplomatic/georges-vanier.042745
 

AMBASSADE DU CANADA                      CANADIAN EMBASSY
    PARIS    [Seal]              PARIS
 
 
            27th April, 1945.
 
No. 548
 
Sir,
 
Will you please refer to my telegram No. 299, dated 24th
April, which relates to my visit to Buchenwald camp.
 
2. In company with eight members of the United States
Congress, I left London for Weimar on Sunday morning, the
22nd. April. The names of the Congressmen, and of the States
for which they sit, follow:
 
  Marion T. BENNETT, Springfield, Illinois
  Gordon CANFIELD, Peterson, New Jersey
  Henry M. JACKSON, Everett, Washington
  Carter MANASCO, Jasper, Alabama
  Albert RAINS, 5th District Alabama, Gadsden, Alabama
  Francis E. WALTER, Easton, Pennsylvania
  Earl WILSON, Huron, Indiana
  Eugene WORLEY, Shannock, Texas
 
Half were Democrats, the others Republicans, but whatever
their political differences may have been, they were of one
mind and one will after the visit, about the necessity for
taking any measures, however drastic, which might be required
to prevent a recurrence of crimes against humanity.

[OMISSIONS]
7. In the improvised hospitals were hundreds of men, some with
running sores, their bodies so devoid of flesh that they could
not lie for long in one position. Some who were able to stand
were little more than skin and bones. One marvelled how the
knee and ankle joints held together.
 
8. We say several hundred children, most of them Polish Jews;
some had been in prison camps for years. Those of ten and over
worked as slave labourers on munitions. Not one, so far as I
know, had any idea of where his parents were; in view of the
barbarous treatment inflicted on Poles and Jews by the
Germans, it is probable that all have been done to death.
 
9. A lampshade was found - and this I saw - made from tattooed
human skin.

 [OMISSIONS]
        I have the honour to be,
            Sir,
        Your obedient servant,
        [s/ Georges Vanier]
        CANADIAN AMBASSADOR



> No such "artifacts" were examined or tested by any
> pathologist at any laboratory. The only evidence to support those
> gruesome holocaust tales are those small irregularly shaped sections of
> tattooed human skin.

Evidence presented at the trial of Ilse Koch determined by a US Army
pathologist to be human skin:


Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/nca/nca-06/nca-06-3423-ps
Archive/File: imt/nca/nca-06 nca-06-3423-ps
Last-Modified:  1997/01/03
 
          Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6
 
                                        [Page 123]
 
                          COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS
 
                SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
              APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.
 
Section of Pathology
25 May 1945
 
SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides
 
TO:  COMMANDING GENERAL,  Third U.S. Army)
 
              (ATTN:  JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)
 
1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for
  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
  81 T.J.A.
 
                                        [Page 124]
 
2.  The description follows:
 
GROSS:  Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.
 
PIECE A:  Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.
 
PIECE B:  Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass.  To the right of this mass
is a man's head.
 
PIECE C:  Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base.  The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm.  The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area.  These are 16
cm. Apart.  From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part.  A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin.  To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.
 
MICROSCOPIC:  The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants.  Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.
 
3.  Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
  specimens are tattooed human skin.
 
For the Commanding Officer,
 
                            [signed]  REUBEN CARES
                                      Ruben Cares
                    Major M.C., Chief of pathology




Claims this strong cannot be merely dismissed; you have to deal with the facts.

Nevertheless, I do not directly connect the human skin artefacts with the
the Holocaust. They only stand as monuments to the depravity of a small
group of people at a single concentration camp.

The Holocaust took place, but the human skin artefacts and soap rendered
>from human fat are, as I understand it, not part of it.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:25 EST 2005
Article: 1076496 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:35:20 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 116
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133336127 7408 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 07:35:27 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 07:35:27 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076496

In article , "Emil
Müller"  wrote:

> I think that Irving's arrest by the Austrian authorities was a mistake.

The Austrians had an outstanding warrant for his arrest on sight, he knew
of the existence of the warrant but took the risk of entering Austria
anyway. It is allowing him to traipse around Austria without arresting him
that would have been a mistake.
 
> If the man recants as explained by his lawyer, then we all will know how the 
> German Holocaust perpetrators were brought to confessed in all those trials: 
> "You either confess or else will receive a long prison sentence".

Through his lawyer ­ he has decided to have one this time ­ David Irving
has stated that he had drawn incorrect conclusions in the past:


Source: http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051124/w112444.html


Lawyer says David Irving now acknowledges existence of Nazi gas chambers 
14:38:52 EST Nov 24, 2005
SUSANNA LOOF

VIENNA, Austria (AP) - A lawyer for British historian David Irving said
Thursday that Irving admitted past statements could be interpreted as
denying the existence of Nazi gas chambers, but now acknowledges they
existed.

Prosecutors earlier this week charged Irving under an Austrian law that
makes denying the Holocaust a crime. The charges arise from two 1989
speeches Irving delivered in Austria in which he allegedly denied the
existence of gas chambers. If convicted, he faces up to 10 years in
prison.

Irving's arrest - in a country still coming to grips with its Nazi-ruled
past - won praise worldwide.

But Irving's lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, said Thursday the historian has told
him he now acknowledges that Nazi gas chambers existed.

"He changed some of the views he is so famous for," Kresbach told The
Associated Press. "He told me: 'Look, there was a certain period when I
drew conclusions from individual sources which are maybe provocative or
could be misinterpreted or could be even wrong.' "

He said additional research Irving carried out after formerly Soviet
archives were opened to scholars persuaded him that his former beliefs
were "not really worthwhile to hold up," Kresbach said.

Irving is "correcting himself," Kresbach said, adding that the historian
now "sees himself as somebody who can influence marginal groups who have
difficulty believing in the Third Reich."

Austrian law does not allow Irving to be interviewed while in custody.
Irving, 67, has the right to appeal the charges but probably will not do
so, Kresbach said. "There are transcripts from the speeches. We don't have
to deny that he said that."

Instead, Kresbach said he would focus on showing how Irving's views have
changed. He said he will argue at a custody hearing Friday that Irving
should be released on bail.

"There is no actual relevance whatsoever for Austria. He is not dangerous
in any way," he said. "Why do they need him here in jail around Christmas
time? . . . Custody is for dangerous people."

No trial date has been announced. In Austria, suspected violations of the
law that bans attempts to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust
are heard by an eight-person layman jury and three judges. 


 
> If Irving does not recant and will be sentenced to a couple of years in 
> jail, he will be considered a martyr for the right of freedom of speech. 
> With worldwide attention.

He has acknowledged that he was mistaken, not quite the same thing as
recanting. 

There is a difference between freedom of speech and deliberately spreading
false informationm. The legal action that David Irving initiated against
Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books resulted in the court determining that
Irving's methodology involved the systematic manipulation of historical
documents and thus the deliberately spreading false information. Having
been thus shown to be a liar, Irving's current predicament has nothing to
do with free speech.

> The way out is to let the man go home now and forget about the whole mess.

No. The man took a stupid risk, not the first time he has done so, and he
got nailed. As was the case with the risks he took when initiating the
trial against Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books, and then deciding to
defend himself in court rather than use the service of a lawyer, he must
deal with the consequences.

> Was not Galilei 500 years ago also convicted to a lifetime in jail because 
> he proved mathematically that the sun was in the center with the earth 
> circulating around it and not the other way around? 

The comparison is obscene. David Irving has been proven to be a liar about
history (http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/mjud.html), and he has
admitted that much of what he has claimed in the past is wrong.
Nevertheless, he continues to spread his lies to groups thirsting for
them.

> So the man recanted in 
> order to avoid the jail sentence.

David Irving has recanted because he was found additional evidence showing
that he was wrong, in addition to which other evidence has shown that he
was either deliberately lying or hopelessly misinformed in the past.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:26 EST 2005
Article: 1076509 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news4.google.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:16:42 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 117
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133342209 9477 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 09:16:49 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 09:16:49 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076509

In article , "Emil
Müller"  wrote:

> I think that Irving's arrest by the Austrian authorities was a mistake.

The Austrians had an outstanding warrant for his arrest on sight, he knew
of the existence of the warrant but took the risk of entering Austria
anyway. It is allowing him to traipse around Austria without arresting him
that would have been a mistake.
 
> If the man recants as explained by his lawyer, then we all will know how the 
> German Holocaust perpetrators were brought to confessed in all those trials: 
> "You either confess or else will receive a long prison sentence".

Through his lawyer ­ he has decided to have one this time ­ David Irving
has stated that he had drawn incorrect conclusions in the past:


Source: http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051124/w112444.html


Lawyer says David Irving now acknowledges existence of Nazi gas chambers 
14:38:52 EST Nov 24, 2005
SUSANNA LOOF

VIENNA, Austria (AP) - A lawyer for British historian David Irving said
Thursday that Irving admitted past statements could be interpreted as
denying the existence of Nazi gas chambers, but now acknowledges they
existed.

Prosecutors earlier this week charged Irving under an Austrian law that
makes denying the Holocaust a crime. The charges arise from two 1989
speeches Irving delivered in Austria in which he allegedly denied the
existence of gas chambers. If convicted, he faces up to 10 years in
prison.

Irving's arrest - in a country still coming to grips with its Nazi-ruled
past - won praise worldwide.

But Irving's lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, said Thursday the historian has told
him he now acknowledges that Nazi gas chambers existed.

"He changed some of the views he is so famous for," Kresbach told The
Associated Press. "He told me: 'Look, there was a certain period when I
drew conclusions from individual sources which are maybe provocative or
could be misinterpreted or could be even wrong.' "

He said additional research Irving carried out after formerly Soviet
archives were opened to scholars persuaded him that his former beliefs
were "not really worthwhile to hold up," Kresbach said.

Irving is "correcting himself," Kresbach said, adding that the historian
now "sees himself as somebody who can influence marginal groups who have
difficulty believing in the Third Reich."

Austrian law does not allow Irving to be interviewed while in custody.
Irving, 67, has the right to appeal the charges but probably will not do
so, Kresbach said. "There are transcripts from the speeches. We don't have
to deny that he said that."

Instead, Kresbach said he would focus on showing how Irving's views have
changed. He said he will argue at a custody hearing Friday that Irving
should be released on bail.

"There is no actual relevance whatsoever for Austria. He is not dangerous
in any way," he said. "Why do they need him here in jail around Christmas
time? . . . Custody is for dangerous people."

No trial date has been announced. In Austria, suspected violations of the
law that bans attempts to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust
are heard by an eight-person layman jury and three judges. 


 
> If Irving does not recant and will be sentenced to a couple of years in 
> jail, he will be considered a martyr for the right of freedom of speech. 
> With worldwide attention.

He has acknowledged that he was mistaken, not quite the same thing as
recanting. 

There is a difference between freedom of speech and deliberately spreading
false informationm. The legal action that David Irving initiated against
Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books resulted in the court determining that
Irving's methodology involved the systematic manipulation of historical
documents and thus the deliberately spreading false information. Having
been thus shown to be a liar, Irving's current predicament has nothing to
do with free speech.

> The way out is to let the man go home now and forget about the whole mess.

No. The man took a stupid risk, not the first time he has done so, and he
got nailed. As was the case with the risks he took when initiating the
trial against Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books, and then deciding to
defend himself in court rather than use the service of a lawyer, he must
deal with the consequences.

> Was not Galilei 500 years ago also convicted to a lifetime in jail because 
> he proved mathematically that the sun was in the center with the earth 
> circulating around it and not the other way around? 

The comparison is obscene. David Irving has been proven to be a liar about
history (http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/mjud.html), and he has
admitted that much of what he has claimed in the past is wrong.
Nevertheless, he continues to spread his lies to groups thirsting for
them.

> So the man recanted in 
> order to avoid the jail sentence.

David Irving has "recanted" because he was found additional evidence
showing that he was wrong, in addition to which other evidence has shown
that he was either deliberately lying or hopelessly misinformed in the
past.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:27 EST 2005
Article: 1076526 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-quince!easynet.net!feed1.news.be.easynet.net!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:01:30 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 224
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133352098 12979 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 12:01:38 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 12:01:38 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076526

In article <1133318502.616863.173780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:



> So let's look at the evidence.  The only existing hard evidence is a
> small number (I think five) of assorted irregular sections of tattooed
> human skin of unknown origin.  

€ Their origin is the Buchenwald concentration camp. Whether that is their
ultimate origin is a different issue.

> That's all the hard evidence that
> exists, all the hard evidence that ever existed.  There are no existing
> lampshades, or handbags, or gloves, or book covers made of human skin
> anywhere,...

€ What you wrote above flies in the face of the facts:

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec67.html

                       
Secrecy & Government Bulletin
                       
Issue Number 67
May 1997
                       
Rethinking Intelligence
                       
More bizarre things are turning up as researchers begin to wade through
declassified files. Lately, archivists have discovered human body parts
maintained as "federal records" in government storage facilities, as reported in
the Jewish newspaper Forward (4/4/97, p. 5). The National Archives in
College Park, Maryland, has identified "a human skin lampshade, or part of
one," from the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald. The National Museum of
Health and Medicine holds three pieces of tattooed human skin, also from
Buchenwald. 



> ...and none were ever presented in evidence at any court or
> hearing. 
 
€ Three of the objects made of human skin which were exhibited as evidence
at the Ilse Koch trial remain stored as holding RG 153, Entry 321-B, FRG
Box 1089
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/humanskin/IlseKoch1.html]
at the The National Archives in College Park, Maryland, as "a human
skin lampshade, or part of one," from the Nazi concentration camp at
Buchenwald.

€ The first claim of their existence is contained in Canadian diplomatic
correspondence:

Source: National Archives of Canada, File 1426-P-40
Websource:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/buchenwald/diplomatic/georges-vanier.042745
 

AMBASSADE DU CANADA                      CANADIAN EMBASSY
    PARIS    [Seal]              PARIS
 
 
            27th April, 1945.
 
No. 548
 
Sir,
 
Will you please refer to my telegram No. 299, dated 24th
April, which relates to my visit to Buchenwald camp.
 
2. In company with eight members of the United States
Congress, I left London for Weimar on Sunday morning, the
22nd. April. The names of the Congressmen, and of the States
for which they sit, follow:
 
  Marion T. BENNETT, Springfield, Illinois
  Gordon CANFIELD, Peterson, New Jersey
  Henry M. JACKSON, Everett, Washington
  Carter MANASCO, Jasper, Alabama
  Albert RAINS, 5th District Alabama, Gadsden, Alabama
  Francis E. WALTER, Easton, Pennsylvania
  Earl WILSON, Huron, Indiana
  Eugene WORLEY, Shannock, Texas
 
Half were Democrats, the others Republicans, but whatever
their political differences may have been, they were of one
mind and one will after the visit, about the necessity for
taking any measures, however drastic, which might be required
to prevent a recurrence of crimes against humanity.

[OMISSIONS]
7. In the improvised hospitals were hundreds of men, some with
running sores, their bodies so devoid of flesh that they could
not lie for long in one position. Some who were able to stand
were little more than skin and bones. One marvelled how the
knee and ankle joints held together.
 
8. We say several hundred children, most of them Polish Jews;
some had been in prison camps for years. Those of ten and over
worked as slave labourers on munitions. Not one, so far as I
know, had any idea of where his parents were; in view of the
barbarous treatment inflicted on Poles and Jews by the
Germans, it is probable that all have been done to death.
 
9. A lampshade was found - and this I saw - made from tattooed
human skin.

 [OMISSIONS]
        I have the honour to be,
            Sir,
        Your obedient servant,
        [s/ Georges Vanier]
        CANADIAN AMBASSADOR



> No such "artifacts" were examined or tested by any
> pathologist at any laboratory. 

€ Wrong again. Evidence presented at the trial of Ilse Koch determined by
a US Army pathologist to be human skin:


Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/nca/nca-06/nca-06-3423-ps
Archive/File: imt/nca/nca-06 nca-06-3423-ps
Last-Modified:  1997/01/03
 
          Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6
 
                                        [Page 123]
 
                          COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS
 
                SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
              APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.
 
Section of Pathology
25 May 1945
 
SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides
 
TO:  COMMANDING GENERAL,  Third U.S. Army)
 
              (ATTN:  JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)
 
1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for
  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
  81 T.J.A.
 
                                        [Page 124]
 
2.  The description follows:
 
GROSS:  Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.
 
PIECE A:  Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.
 
PIECE B:  Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass.  To the right of this mass
is a man's head.
 
PIECE C:  Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base.  The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm.  The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area.  These are 16
cm. Apart.  From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part.  A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin.  To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.
 
MICROSCOPIC:  The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants.  Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.
 
3.  Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
  specimens are tattooed human skin.
 
For the Commanding Officer,
 
                            [signed]  REUBEN CARES
                                      Ruben Cares
                    Major M.C., Chief of pathology




> The only evidence to support those
> gruesome holocaust tales are those small irregularly shaped sections of
> tattooed human skin.

As you can see, your claims are wrong. The report of a team that visited
the recently liberated Buchenwald camp contains a mention of a human skin
lampshade, an American military pathologist confirmed that the material in
question was of human origin, the material was presented as evidence at
the trial of Ilse Koch, who never challenged the pathologists analysis,
but rather based her defense on the argument that there is nothing illegal
about possessing artefacts made from human skin, and both The National
Archives and The National Museum of Health and Medicine claim to have
human skin artefacts from the Ilse Koch trial in their holdings.

Nevertheless, I do not directly connect the existence of human skin
artefacts with the the Holocaust. They stand as monuments to the depravity
of a small
group of people at a single concentration camp. They are relevant to the
Holocaust in the same manner as the destruction of Lidice and the
experimental rendering of soap from cadavers are relevant to the
Holocaust: both demonstrate the low degree of respect that the Nazis had
for human life and accepted European norms of respect towards the dead.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:27 EST 2005
Article: 1076536 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:33:15 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 224
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133357603 14702 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 13:33:23 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 13:33:23 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076536

In article <1133318502.616863.173780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:



> So let's look at the evidence.  The only existing hard evidence is a
> small number (I think five) of assorted irregular sections of tattooed
> human skin of unknown origin.  

€ Their origin is the Buchenwald concentration camp. Whether that is their
ultimate origin is a different issue.

> That's all the hard evidence that
> exists, all the hard evidence that ever existed.  There are no existing
> lampshades, or handbags, or gloves, or book covers made of human skin
> anywhere,...

€ What you wrote above flies in the face of the facts:

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec67.html

                       
Secrecy & Government Bulletin
                       
Issue Number 67
May 1997
                       
Rethinking Intelligence
                       
More bizarre things are turning up as researchers begin to wade through
declassified files. Lately, archivists have discovered human body parts
maintained as "federal records" in government storage facilities, as reported in
the Jewish newspaper Forward (4/4/97, p. 5). The National Archives in
College Park, Maryland, has identified "a human skin lampshade, or part of
one," from the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald. The National Museum of
Health and Medicine holds three pieces of tattooed human skin, also from
Buchenwald. 



> ...and none were ever presented in evidence at any court or
> hearing. 
 
€ Three of the objects made of human skin which were exhibited as evidence
at the Ilse Koch trial remain stored as holding RG 153, Entry 321-B, FRG
Box 1089
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/humanskin/IlseKoch1.html]
at the The National Archives in College Park, Maryland, as "a human
skin lampshade, or part of one," from the Nazi concentration camp at
Buchenwald.

€ The first claim of their existence is contained in Canadian diplomatic
correspondence:

Source: National Archives of Canada, File 1426-P-40
Websource:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/buchenwald/diplomatic/georges-vanier.042745
 

AMBASSADE DU CANADA                      CANADIAN EMBASSY
    PARIS    [Seal]              PARIS
 
 
            27th April, 1945.
 
No. 548
 
Sir,
 
Will you please refer to my telegram No. 299, dated 24th
April, which relates to my visit to Buchenwald camp.
 
2. In company with eight members of the United States
Congress, I left London for Weimar on Sunday morning, the
22nd. April. The names of the Congressmen, and of the States
for which they sit, follow:
 
  Marion T. BENNETT, Springfield, Illinois
  Gordon CANFIELD, Peterson, New Jersey
  Henry M. JACKSON, Everett, Washington
  Carter MANASCO, Jasper, Alabama
  Albert RAINS, 5th District Alabama, Gadsden, Alabama
  Francis E. WALTER, Easton, Pennsylvania
  Earl WILSON, Huron, Indiana
  Eugene WORLEY, Shannock, Texas
 
Half were Democrats, the others Republicans, but whatever
their political differences may have been, they were of one
mind and one will after the visit, about the necessity for
taking any measures, however drastic, which might be required
to prevent a recurrence of crimes against humanity.

[OMISSIONS]
7. In the improvised hospitals were hundreds of men, some with
running sores, their bodies so devoid of flesh that they could
not lie for long in one position. Some who were able to stand
were little more than skin and bones. One marvelled how the
knee and ankle joints held together.
 
8. We say several hundred children, most of them Polish Jews;
some had been in prison camps for years. Those of ten and over
worked as slave labourers on munitions. Not one, so far as I
know, had any idea of where his parents were; in view of the
barbarous treatment inflicted on Poles and Jews by the
Germans, it is probable that all have been done to death.
 
9. A lampshade was found - and this I saw - made from tattooed
human skin.

 [OMISSIONS]
        I have the honour to be,
            Sir,
        Your obedient servant,
        [s/ Georges Vanier]
        CANADIAN AMBASSADOR



> No such "artifacts" were examined or tested by any
> pathologist at any laboratory. 

€ Wrong again. Evidence presented at the trial of Ilse Koch was determined
by a US Army pathologist to be human skin:


Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/nca/nca-06/nca-06-3423-ps
Archive/File: imt/nca/nca-06 nca-06-3423-ps
Last-Modified:  1997/01/03
 
          Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6
 
                                        [Page 123]
 
                          COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS
 
                SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
              APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.
 
Section of Pathology
25 May 1945
 
SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides
 
TO:  COMMANDING GENERAL,  Third U.S. Army)
 
              (ATTN:  JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)
 
1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for
  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
  81 T.J.A.
 
                                        [Page 124]
 
2.  The description follows:
 
GROSS:  Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.
 
PIECE A:  Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.
 
PIECE B:  Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass.  To the right of this mass
is a man's head.
 
PIECE C:  Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base.  The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm.  The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area.  These are 16
cm. Apart.  From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part.  A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin.  To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.
 
MICROSCOPIC:  The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants.  Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.
 
3.  Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
  specimens are tattooed human skin.
 
For the Commanding Officer,
 
                            [signed]  REUBEN CARES
                                      Ruben Cares
                    Major M.C., Chief of pathology




> The only evidence to support those
> gruesome holocaust tales are those small irregularly shaped sections of
> tattooed human skin.

As you can see, your claims are factually incorrect. The report of the
team that visited the recently liberated Buchenwald camp contains a
mention of a human skin lampshade, an American military pathologist
confirmed a month later that the material in question was of human origin,
the material was presented as evidence at the trial of Ilse Koch, who
never challenged the pathologists analysis, but rather based her defense
on the argument that there is nothing illegal about possessing artefacts
made from human skin, and both The National Archives and The National
Museum of Health and Medicine state that they have human skin artefacts
>from the Ilse Koch trial in their holdings.

Nevertheless, I do not directly connect the existence of human skin
artefacts with the the Holocaust. They stand as monuments to the depravity
of a small group of people at a single concentration camp. They are
relevant to the Holocaust in the same manner as the destruction of Lidice
and the experimental rendering of soap from cadavers are relevant to the
Holocaust: both demonstrate the low degree of respect that the Nazis had
for human life and accepted European norms of respect towards the dead.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:28 EST 2005
Article: 1076577 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:09:14 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <8ojjf.666027$tl2.350356@pd7tw3no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133370562 18938 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 17:09:22 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 17:09:22 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076577

In article <8ojjf.666027$tl2.350356@pd7tw3no>, "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Outstanding warrant Eugene a warrant for what 

For making public statements denying, belittling, or trivializing the
Holocaust in Austria when it was a crime to do so.

> could it be Irving did express 
> his view of the holocaust and this I legal in most countries of the world.
> 


That is not the point. Publicly denying, trivializing, or belittling the
Holocaust is *not* legal in Austria, Germany, France, or any of the other
countries that have similar legislation. David Irving knows that, but he
continues to try to enter these countries anyway, even when he knows that
there are outstanding warrants for his arrest for having violated these
laws within the jurisdiction concerned.

Completely free speech does not exist in any country. In the United States
public statements urging people to assassinate the president, overthrow
the government, or hijack an airliner will result in criminal action, as
will provably false and defamatory public statements that damage a
person's reputation. Many Western democracies have legislation prohibiting
the public display of material that is pornographgic or blasphemous.
Freedom of speech is a relative concept the nature of which in any
specific jurisdiction is determined by its history, hangups, and
predilections.

In Austria and Germany, the countries whose leaders bear the primary
responsibility for planning and implementing the Holocaust, a systematic
program of extermination, more than 95% of the victims of which were
citizens other countries, publicly denying, trivializing, or belittling
the Holocaust has, understandably, been criminalized.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:28 EST 2005
Article: 1076584 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-quince!easynet.net!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!news.germany.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:44:05 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 164
Message-ID: 
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133372654 19646 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 17:44:14 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 17:44:14 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076584

In article , "Emil
Müller"  wrote:


> >
> >> Was not Galilei 500 years ago also convicted to a lifetime in jail 
> >> because
> >> he proved mathematically that the sun was in the center with the earth
> >> circulating around it and not the other way around?
> >
> > The comparison is obscene.
> 
> The comparison is not between Galilei and Irving, but rather between the 
> laws then and now.

I know. The comparison is still obscene. In Galilei's time the conflict
was between religious belief and science. With Irving it is a matter of
him publicly lying about things that he knows to be true.

> The law which demanded 500 years ago the acceptance to believe that the sun 
> circulates around the earth is as stupid as present day laws which demand 
> the religious belief in the Jewish gas chambers. Believe this or else!

There is no law on the books that says that people must believe in Nazi
gas chambers. Indeed, gassing was only one aspect of the Holocaust. The
laws on the books in Austria, Germany, France, and other countries
stipulate that you are not to make public statements belittling,
trivializing, or denying the Holocaust as a whole; there is no mention of
specific aspects, such as gas chambers, Einsatzkommandos, summary
executions, ghetto clearings, or slave labor.

> David Irving has been proven to be a liar about
> > history (http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/mjud.html), and he has
> > admitted that much of what he has claimed in the past is wrong.
> > Nevertheless, he continues to spread his lies to groups thirsting for
> > them.
> >
> >> So the man recanted in
> >> order to avoid the jail sentence.
> >
> > David Irving has recanted because he was found additional evidence showing
> > that he was wrong, in addition to which other evidence has shown that he
> > was either deliberately lying or hopelessly misinformed in the past.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> The existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz/Birkenau has never been 
> proven criminologically.

It doesn't have to be proven criminologically, indeed there is no reason
for it to have to be proven criminologically. It has been proven to the
satisfaction of mainstream history and the legal systems of virtually all
countries. As has been said here many times, Zyklon-B was designed to
enable any sturdily built room to functin as a gas chamber provided that
the proper precautions were taken. Any room that can be fumigated using
the cyanide generated by Zyklon-B can be used as a functional gas chamber
to kill people. The problem of dealing expelling the gas after a
fumigation is essentially the same as that of expelling it after a
homicidal gassing.

> There is no hard matial evidence for these gas chambers, no documentary 
> evidence (except if documents are interpreted as saying something other than 
> what they actually say).

This is not true. The Germans forgot to destroy many of the documents
pertaining to the evolution of the Auschwitz concentration camp, including
its gas chambers.

Source: D. Dwórk and Robert Jan van Pelt, *Auschwitz. 1260 to the
Present*, W. W. Norton & Company. New York and London, 1996, pg. 321:



The evolution of th Auschwitz concentratation camp is captured in the
hundreds of architectural plans the Germans forgot to destroy and the
Poles and the Soviets preserved in archives in Oswiecim and Moscow. A
unique historical source, these materials are part of the archive of the
Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei, Auschwitz O/S (Central
Building Authority of the Waffen SS and the Police in Upper Silesia). For
a while the Germans burned the archives of the camp Kommandantur prior to
their evacuation from Auschwitz in January 1945, and Allied bombs
inadvertantly helped them accomplish the same task at SS headquarters in
Berlin, the archive of the construction office, some three hundred yards
away from the Kommandantur, was overlooked and remained intact. There is
no similarly complete archive from any other concentration camp, and none
of the administratively less complex Operation Reinhard camps under the
control of Odilo Globocnik (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka) generated such
documents.

Building at Auschwitz both in the concentration camp and in the town was
subject to normal civilian procedures as well as to the wartime
superstructure of special permissions. Multiple copies of many documents
survive with the comments and signatures of the individual bureaucrats or
business men to whom they were sent. The Building Office generated a wide
paper trail: plans, budgets, letters, telegrams, contractors' bids,
financial negotiations, work site labor reports, requests for material
allocations, and the minutes of meetings held in the Building Office among
the architects themselves, with camp officials, and with high-ranking
dignitaries from Berlin.


The chapter goes on to present blueprints of buildings that appear to have
been designed as mortuaries, but were modified at the last moment to
enable them to serve as gas chambers. A shute for sending bodies to the
cellar, for example, is replaced by a circular stairway allowing access to
the cellar, and a storage room suddenly acquired rows of pegs to hang
clothes on.

> Not a single body was ever discovered, which was forensically proven to be 
> killed with hydrocyanic acid (CN).

So what? To my knowledge, not a single louse or rat has ever been
discovered that was forensically proven to have been killed with
hydrocyanic acid (CN), yet Zyklon-B was widely used for fumigation.

> Pressac in a feeble effort to prove the existence of these homicidal gas 
> chambers came up with some 30 or so criminal traces in Auschwitz/Birkenau, 
> which was thoroughly refuted by Mattogno et al in "Auschwitz: Plain Facts"
> 
> http://vho.org/GB/Books/anf/
> 
> 
> The walls and ceiling of the morgue 1/II, the homicidal gas chamber where 
> 500,000 Jews were allegedly gassed, show no blue staining of prussian blue, 
> a ferro cyanide, similar to the delousing gas chambers.

Prussian blue is not always formed upon contact with cyanide, something
vividly demonstrated by the irregular, splotched patterns on the walls of
gas chambers that have been preserved (e.g.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Majdanek/Majdanek02.jpg). And tests
for cyanide ions rather than Prussian blue have demonstrated that many of
the structures alleged to have been used as gas chambers demonstrate a
history of having been exposed to cyanide, even afte more than sixty years
opf exposure to the elements.

> And the rectangular opening in the ceiling, which were observed by eye 
> witnesses for the insertion of the poisonous Zyklon B, were never found 
> either.

The structures are nevertheloess visible on arial photographs, for
details, see
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/holocaust_and_genocide_studies/v018/18.1keren.html
.

> I have no intention to change your quasi  religious believe in these gas 
> chambers and the evilness of the Germans in general, Mr. Holman. I have 
> better things to do with my time.

> But I resent the fact that certain countrties have laws which have people, 
> gas chamber skeptics, arrested and placed in prison.

There vare no such laws. There are laws in countries that were
particularly involved in the Holocaust that put Holocaust deniers into
prison. The Holocuast ‚ gas chambers. The Holocaust > gas chambers.
 
> 
> And I would be curious to know, what Irving found in the Moscow archives 
> that convinced him of the homicidal gas chambers. Maybe it convinces me too.

He'll eventually tell.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:28 EST 2005
Article: 1076614 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.wiretrip.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On human skin artefacts at the The National Museum of Health and Medicine
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:40:09 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 167
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1133383218 22543 128.214.90.198 (30 Nov 2005 20:40:18 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2005 20:40:18 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1076614

In article , "Emil
Müller"  wrote:


> >
> >> Was not Galilei 500 years ago also convicted to a lifetime in jail 
> >> because
> >> he proved mathematically that the sun was in the center with the earth
> >> circulating around it and not the other way around?
> >
> > The comparison is obscene.
> 
> The comparison is not between Galilei and Irving, but rather between the 
> laws then and now.

I know. The comparison is still obscene. In Galilei's time the conflict
was between religious belief and science. With Irving it is a matter of
him publicly lying about things that he knows to be true.

> The law which demanded 500 years ago the acceptance to believe that the sun 
> circulates around the earth is as stupid as present day laws which demand 
> the religious belief in the Jewish gas chambers. Believe this or else!

There is no law on the books that says that people must believe in Nazi
gas chambers. Indeed, gassing was only one aspect of the Holocaust. The
laws on the books in Austria, Germany, France, and other countries
stipulate that you are not to make public statements belittling,
trivializing, or denying the Holocaust as a whole; there is no mention of
specific aspects, such as gas chambers, Einsatzkommandos, euthanasia
killings, summary executions, ghetto clearings, slave labor, or death
marches.

> David Irving has been proven to be a liar about
> > history (http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/mjud.html), and he has
> > admitted that much of what he has claimed in the past is wrong.
> > Nevertheless, he continues to spread his lies to groups thirsting for
> > them.
> >
> >> So the man recanted in
> >> order to avoid the jail sentence.
> >
> > David Irving has recanted because he was found additional evidence showing
> > that he was wrong, in addition to which other evidence has shown that he
> > was either deliberately lying or hopelessly misinformed in the past.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> The existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz/Birkenau has never been 
> proven criminologically.

It doesn't have to be proven criminologically, indeed there is no reason
for it to have to be proven criminologically. It has been proven to the
satisfaction of mainstream history and the legal systems of virtually all
countries. As has been said here many times, Zyklon-B was designed to
enable any sturdily built room to function as a gas chamber provided that
the proper precautions were taken. Any room that can be fumigated using
the cyanide generated by Zyklon-B can be used as a functional gas chamber
to kill people. The problem of expelling the gas after a fumigation is
essentially the same as that of expelling it after a homicidal gassing.

> There is no hard matial evidence for these gas chambers, no documentary 
> evidence (except if documents are interpreted as saying something other than 
> what they actually say).

This is not true. The Germans forgot to destroy many of the documents
pertaining to the evolution of the Auschwitz concentration camp, including
its gas chambers.

Source: D. Dwórk and Robert Jan van Pelt, *Auschwitz. 1260 to the
Present*, W. W. Norton & Company. New York and London, 1996, pg. 321:



The evolution of th Auschwitz concentratation camp is captured in the
hundreds of architectural plans the Germans forgot to destroy and the
Poles and the Soviets preserved in archives in Oswiecim and Moscow. A
unique historical source, these materials are part of the archive of the
Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei, Auschwitz O/S (Central
Building Authority of the Waffen SS and the Police in Upper Silesia). For
a while the Germans burned the archives of the camp Kommandantur prior to
their evacuation from Auschwitz in January 1945, and Allied bombs
inadvertantly helped them accomplish the same task at SS headquarters in
Berlin, the archive of the construction office, some three hundred yards
away from the Kommandantur, was overlooked and remained intact. There is
no similarly complete archive from any other concentration camp, and none
of the administratively less complex Operation Reinhard camps under the
control of Odilo Globocnik (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka) generated such
documents.

Building at Auschwitz both in the concentration camp and in the town was
subject to normal civilian procedures as well as to the wartime
superstructure of special permissions. Multiple copies of many documents
survive with the comments and signatures of the individual bureaucrats or
business men to whom they were sent. The Building Office generated a wide
paper trail: plans, budgets, letters, telegrams, contractors' bids,
financial negotiations, work site labor reports, requests for material
allocations, and the minutes of meetings held in the Building Office among
the architects themselves, with camp officials, and with high-ranking
dignitaries from Berlin.


The chapter goes on to present blueprints of buildings that appear to have
been designed as mortuaries, but were modified at the last moment to
enable them to serve as gas chambers. A shute for sending bodies to the
cellar, for example, is replaced by a circular stairway allowing access to
the cellar, and a storage room suddenly acquired rows of pegs to hang
clothes on.

> Not a single body was ever discovered, which was forensically proven to be 
> killed with hydrocyanic acid (CN).

So what? To my knowledge, not a single louse or rat has ever been
discovered that was forensically proven to have been killed with
hydrocyanic acid (CN), yet Zyklon-B was widely used for fumigation.

> Pressac in a feeble effort to prove the existence of these homicidal gas 
> chambers came up with some 30 or so criminal traces in Auschwitz/Birkenau, 
> which was thoroughly refuted by Mattogno et al in "Auschwitz: Plain Facts"
> 
> http://vho.org/GB/Books/anf/
> 
> 
> The walls and ceiling of the morgue 1/II, the homicidal gas chamber where 
> 500,000 Jews were allegedly gassed, show no blue staining of prussian blue, 
> a ferro cyanide, similar to the delousing gas chambers.

Prussian blue is not always formed upon contact with cyanide, something
vividly demonstrated by the irregular, splotched patterns on the walls of
gas chambers that have been preserved (e.g.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Majdanek/Majdanek02.jpg). And tests
for cyanide ions rather than Prussian blue have demonstrated that many of
the structures alleged to have been used as gas chambers demonstrate a
history of having been exposed to cyanide, even after more than sixty years
of exposure to the elements.

> And the rectangular opening in the ceiling, which were observed by eye 
> witnesses for the insertion of the poisonous Zyklon B, were never found 
> either.

The structures are nevertheloess visible on aerial photographs, for
details, see
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/holocaust_and_genocide_studies/v018/18.1keren.html
.

> I have no intention to change your quasi  religious believe in these gas 
> chambers and the evilness of the Germans in general, Mr. Holman. I have 
> better things to do with my time.

> But I resent the fact that certain countrties have laws which have people, 
> gas chamber skeptics, arrested and placed in prison.

There are no such laws. There are laws in countries that were
particularly involved in the Holocaust that put Holocaust deniers into
prison. The Holocaust ‚ gas chambers. The Holocaust > gas chambers.

Und Du weißt wohl, daß ich nichts gegen die Deutschen oder Deutschland
bzw. Österreich habe.
 
> 
> And I would be curious to know, what Irving found in the Moscow archives 
> that convinced him of the homicidal gas chambers. Maybe it convinces me too.

He'll eventually tell.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor