From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:01:59 EDT 2006
Article: 1039476 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Szaki Still as Stupid as Ever
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:12:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1113936442.325587.129070@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
EmilMll1929@yahoo.com wrote:

> There was no systematic planned extermination of Jews by the Nazis.

Yes there was. In every country invaded or allied with Germany, except
Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, and Hungary (until early 1944), the local
Jewish communities were either publicly shot outright, or ghettoized
(along the eastern front) or concentrated in deportation camps (in Western
Europe) and
then either publicly shot (along the eastern front) or deported to be
enslaved and worked to death or, as a rule, killed if they were incapable
of working (in Western Europe). There were a few apparent exceptions. As
far as the "model protectorate" Denmark is concerned, the Danes were able
to negotiate a special deal with the Nazis that Danish Jews would be
treated well, rather than given "special treatment", at the Theresienstadt
"model concentration camp" to which
those who did not succeed in escaping to Sweden were sent. In Hungary the
local Jews were left in relative peace as long as Hungary fought on
Germany's side, but were deported and either enslaved or exterminated with
a vengeance once Germany became aware of Hungary's efforts to extricate
itself from the war. In Finland the local Jews fought along side the
Germans against a common enemy, the USSR, but recently unearthed  archival
evidence indicates that the Germans had a contingency plan to arrest and
deport Finnish Jews, and that Finnish Jews, assuming this on the basis of
what they knew about what the Germans where doing to Jews elsewhere, had
contingency plans to escape to Sweden.

> Jews were deported eastward to ghettos and work camps. 

Many were. But to take one case study as an illustrative example, the
ghetto in Riga to which many Central European Jews began to be deported
starting in 1942 had first had its original inhabitants killed in the
Rumbula massacre that took place on November 30 and December 8, 1941 (for
details, see
www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf). Some Central European Jews
deported to Latvia also wound up at the Salaspils concentration camp, a
strict regime camp most of whose internees were worked to death. Although
tens of thousands of Central European Jews were deported to ghettos and
camps in Latvia, no more than 1,000 were alive when the war there ended in
the fall of 1944  (for details, see
http://www.logon.org/_domain/holocaustrevealed.org/Latvia/Latvian_Holocaust.htm).

> Many of these
> Jews, maybe most, died from diseases, malnutrition and maltreatment.

Which, of course, would in itself qualify as genocide. If a country is
going to intern people and it treats them so badly that "many...maybe
most" die, then it is guilty of mass murder. If it had interned them
solely because of their ethnicity and for no other reason, then that mass
murder is genocide. QED.
 
> As Arthur R. Butz observed:
> 'The simplest valid reason for being skeptical about the
> extermination claim is also the simplest conceivable reason; at the end
> of the war they were still there.'

The overwhelming majority of the Jews who were still alive on German
occupied territory at the end of the war were strong, able-bodied men, a
disproportionate number of them recently interned Hungarian Jews. Once
again, let's take a case study, the eight Jews who had hidden in the
Amsterdam attic immortalized in Anne Frank's diary were only discovered
and arrested on August 4, 1944. Of them, only Otto Frank, Anne's father,
survived the war. Considering that entire Jewish communities were
interned, the lack of elderly people, infants, and pre-adolescent children
as well as the disproportionate number of young and middle-aged men in the
photographs of concentration camp liberations is striking. See e.g.
http://www.webencyclo.com/dossiers/anciens/contenu/images/antisemitisme/auschwitz.jpg,
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs2/78808.gif,
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/OldPhotos/dachau01.jpg. The Protocol of the
Wannsee Conference calculates that as of January 1942 there were still
more than 11,000,000 people defined by the Nazis as Jews in Europe to be
dealt with within the framework of the Final Solution
(http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanngerm.html). Most estimates
of the number of Holocaust victims range between 5 and 6 million, so it is
obvious that millions of European Jews survived the Holocaust one way or
another. After all, in addition to killing Jews the Nazis were also trying
to win an all-fronts war and they needed all of the manpower that they
could get, including the input from Jewish concentration camp slave labor.

> 
> There was literally an exodus of Jews from eastern Europe after the
> war. 

Many Eastern European Jews who survived the war tried to emigrate,
something that is hardly surprising given the societal chaos, rampant
anti-Semitism, and the possibility open to Jews to emigrate to Israel or
North America.

> Hundreds of thousands shipped out to the US, Israel and other
> overseas countries. 

But many more stayed put. Although the number of Jews in countries such as
Poland, Bulgaria, and Lithuania, all of which once had large Jewish
minorities is quite small today, there are large and thriving Jewish
communities in Hungary and Russia.

> And they are still at it, 200,000 presently going
> to Germany, by all places!(can anyone believe it?).

Today's Germany is not Hitler's Germany. And the Holocaust did not have as
great an impact on German Jews, more than half of whom survived the war,
as it had on the Jews of countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, Poland,
Ukraine, Belarus, or Hungary, where the overwhelming majority of Jews were
killed by the Nazis, sometimes with the assistance of local collaborators.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:00 EDT 2006
Article: 1039512 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:17:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 65
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In article <42664f33$1_1@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>, "Allan Jones"
 wrote:



> Well - There's a credibile source of evidence
> There is no SCIENTIFIC evidence to support your claim. Did you miss that 
> word? Expect so. Heresay, eye witness testimony etc. do not constitute 
> SCIENTIFIC evidence. OK?

You do not seem to understand what scientific means. There are natural
sciences, such as chemistry, physics, and phonetics, but there are also
social sciences, such as demographics, history, and sociolinguistics. In
the western intellectual tradition, all of them share the same methods of
fact gathering and classification, hypothesis posing, theory construction,
and explanation. The natural sciences work with simpler and data and are
more precise than the social sciences, which have to take the
unpredictability of human behavior into account, but they share with them
the same overall heuristic and epistemological objectives: to construct
plausible explanations for the sets of facts that are their specific
object of interest.

The natural sciences, particularly chemistry and archeology, have been
used to support evidence from other sources that the Nazis killed large
numbers of people by a variety of means, including gas chambers and mass
shootings in already dug graves. Demography, also a science, analyzes
information about population gains and losses, and the reasons for them.
We know, for example, that Lithuania's Jewish population fell from a
figure on the order of magnitude of 150,000 before the war to virtually
nothing afterwards. Military history, also a science, analyzes the
documents generated by the Einsatzkommandos and local bureaucracies
concerning the identification, mass shootings, body disposal, and
subsequent confiscations of the movable and immovable property of the Jews
murdered in various killing operations.

If the term 'scientific' were to be defined as narrowly as you are
implying that it should, there would be no court decisions based on
testimonial evidence and documents, no bureaucracies, no official records,
and no history, military or otherwise. 

To take a specific example, the fate of the Jews of Budapest is documented
in diplomatic correspondence between the German and the Hungarian
authorities, records taken by Adolf Eichmann to deport, and Swedish
diplomat Raoul Wallenberg to rescue, the Jews of Hungary during the summer
of 1944, by the actions taken by diplomats of other countries to rescue
Hungarian Jews, the oral history of the tens of thousands of people
rescued by Wallenberg's actions, the testimony of tens of thousands more
who wound up being deported to Auschwitz and Mauthausen and survived, but
lost their families and relatives there, as well as by the appeal made to
the Hungarian government by the Swedish King to halt the deportations of
the Jews, and the positive response to the appeal of the Hungarian
authorities. This mass of evidence can be classified, analyzed, and used
to reconstruct many of the events that characterized the Holocaust in
Hungary. But it takes training in the discipline of history to be able to
do this. In English we do not always feel comfortable using the word
'science' to characterize history, but in most European languages the word
for science, Wissenschaft in German, vetenskap in Swedish, tiede in
Finnish, nauka in Russian, etc., are applied to disciplines such as
history that use systematic and verifiable methods to produce scientific
information. See
http://strongbrains.com/science/history/overview/default.htm  for further
discussion on this theme

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:00 EDT 2006
Article: 1039515 of alt.revisionism
Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1039515
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:33:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 11
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This interesting paper deals with the flows of information up and down the
chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision of
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically ordered
to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:

http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:00 EDT 2006
Article: 1039517 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:59:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <42664f33$1_1@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>, "Allan Jones"
 wrote:



> Well - There's a credibile source of evidence
> There is no SCIENTIFIC evidence to support your claim. Did you miss that 
> word? Expect so. Heresay, eye witness testimony etc. do not constitute 
> SCIENTIFIC evidence. OK?

You do not seem to understand what scientific means. There are natural
sciences, such as chemistry, physics, and phonetics, but there are also
social sciences, such as demographics, history, and sociolinguistics. In
the western intellectual tradition, all of them share the same methods of
fact gathering and classification, hypothesis posing, theory construction,
reasoning, and explanation. The natural sciences work with simpler and
more predictable data and are thus more precise than the social sciences,
which have to take the unpredictability of human behavior into account,
but they share with them the same overall heuristic and epistemological
objectives: to construct
plausible and logically consistent accounts of and explanations for the
sets of facts that are their specific object of interest.

The natural sciences, particularly analytical and physical chemistry and
archeology, have been used to support evidence from other sources that the
Nazis killed large numbers of people by a variety of means, including gas
chambers and mass shootings in already dug graves. Demography, also a
science, analyzes information about population gains and losses, and the
reasons for them. We know, for example, that Lithuania's Jewish population
fell from a figure on the order of magnitude of 150,000 before the war to
virtually nothing afterwards. Military history, also a science, analyzes
the documents generated by the Einsatzkommandos and local bureaucracies
concerning the identification, mass shootings, body disposal, and
subsequent confiscations of the movable and immovable property of the Jews
murdered in various killing operations.

If the term 'scientific' were to be defined as narrowly as you are
implying that it should, there would be no court decisions based on
testimonial evidence and documents, no bureaucracies, no official records,
and no history, military or otherwise. 

To take a specific example, the fate of the Jews of Budapest is documented
in diplomatic correspondence between the German and the Hungarian
authorities, records taken by Adolf Eichmann to deport, and by the Swedish
diplomat Raoul Wallenberg to rescue, the Jews of Hungary during the summer
of 1944, by the actions taken by diplomats of other countries to rescue
Hungarian Jews, the oral history of the tens of thousands of people
rescued by Wallenberg's actions, the testimony of tens of thousands more
who wound up being deported to Auschwitz and Mauthausen and survived, but
lost their families and relatives there, as well as by the appeal made to
the Hungarian government by the Swedish King to halt the deportations of
the Jews, and the positive response to this appeal of the Hungarian
authorities. This mass of evidence can be classified, analyzed, and used
to reconstruct many of the events that characterized the Holocaust in
Hungary. But it takes training in the discipline of history to be able to
do this. In English we do not always feel comfortable using the word
'science' to characterize history, but in most European languages the word
for science, Wissenschaft in German, vetenskap in Swedish, tiede in
Finnish, nauka in Russian, etc., is applied to disciplines such as
history that use systematic and verifiable methods to produce scientific
information. See
http://strongbrains.com/science/history/overview/default.htm  for further
discussion on this theme

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:01 EDT 2006
Article: 1039534 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:33:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 52
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References:  <42667712.307@wanadu.fr>
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In article <42667712.307@wanadu.fr>, Zulu  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > This interesting paper deals with the flows of information up and down the
> > chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
> > consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
> > outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision of
> > SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically ordered
> > to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:
> > 
> > http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf
> > 
> 
> So, that "extermination plan" isn't be supposed to have been SECRET anymore?

It was secret in the sense that orders for it were evidently issued orally
to a few of Hitler's most trusted officials, with no written record being
kept. There is nothing unusual about that, given how Hitler in most
uncharacteristic style, had been forced to backtrack on the basis of the
first order he had signed for mass-murder, his authorization for
euthanasia within the framework of the T-4 program.

On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
as the Arâjs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
countryside and smaller towns. The liquidations of the ghettos in the
larger cities were also done in broad daylight with many episodes of
lethal violence both within the ghetto and along the route from the ghetto
to the killing site. On both November 30 and December 8, 1941 hundreds of
corpses of the people who had tried to escape or been unable to keep up
with the others and thus been shot in cold blood by the guards or police
lined the 10 kilometer-long route along Moscow Road from central Riga to
the Rumbula forest. As the day went by, their bodies were picked up,
loaded onto carts, and dumped, once again quite publicly, into a mass
grave at the Jewish cemetery in central Riga. Since news of the massacre
was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow, it
is obvious that nothing was being done at this initial stage to keep its
implementation a secret. Similar scenes with variations due to local
circumstances took place along the eastern front all the way from Estonia
to the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine. The fact that several of the worst of
these mass murders were organized and implemented by SS-Obergruppenführer
Friedrich Jeckeln, who even devised a methodology, Sardinenpackung that
enabled him and his fifty-man staff to kill people and dispose of their
bodies at a rate of 1,500 an hour, indicates that there was a plan
coordinated and financed from Berlin and relying on the feedback from
debriefings after each successful mass-murder to fine-tune its
methodology.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:01 EDT 2006
Article: 1039710 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:00:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:  <42667712.307@wanadu.fr>  <1114031482.809420.115870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  <1114076889.208937.111190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
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In article <1114076889.208937.111190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> Is this the place where 5000 Jews were buried at the Central Jewish
> Cemetery in Riga?
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg

Yes. I've visited there twice. Fresh flowers are put on the mass grave
every day.
 
> >From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
> like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.

The first article was a conference presentation. Go to chapter 8 of the
same author's *The Holocaust in Latvia; 1941 ­ 1944*,
(http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc.), for the more meticulous
documentation.

> 
> Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
> confessions and what have you.  It was the subject of quite a splendid
> Soviet trial I believe.

Rumbula was the subject of several trials, the nmost important being the
1978 trial of Victors Arajs in Hamburg in 1978. Evidence was presented
against several participants in the Rumbula massacre, including Jahnke,
Tuchel, Neuman, and Diedrich. Rumbula is the best documented public mass
murder of Jews carried out by the Nazis.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:01 EDT 2006
Article: 1039736 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:07:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 57
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In article <1114076889.208937.111190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> Is this the place where 5000 Jews were buried at the Central Jewish
> Cemetery in Riga?
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg

Yes, although I the number of people buried there is not quite that high.
The ghetto was liquidated on two different days, first November 30, then
December 8. On both days the inhabitants of the ghetto were awakened at
six o'clock by the Germans and told to assemble in courtyards. Hundreds of
people were shot at the ghetto in cold blood for refusing to obey these
orders or for other forms of insubordination. Hundreds of other people
were shot along the ten kilometer route to the killing site for trying to
escape or failing to keep up. All of the bodies of the people shot in the
ghetto and along Moscow Road were collected on both days, carted to the
ghetto, and dumped into the pit in the old Jewish cemetery that the
Germans had created there using dynamite. The headstone was added later.
I've visited the former ghetto and old Jewish cemetery in Riga  twice.
Fresh flowers are put on the mass grave every day by people whose loved
ones were buried there more than sixty years ago. A few blocks away on
Gogol Street are the ruins of the Great Choral Synagogue, torched with 300
people inside on July 4, 1941 with the encouragement of the Nazi occupiers
(http://www.rumbula.org/VirtualTours/jewish_riga_photo9.htm).
 
> >From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
> like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.

That article was a conference presentation given on the 60th anniversary
of the Rumbula massacre and thus not heavily crossreferenced. Go to
chapter 8 of the same author's *The Holocaust in Latvia; 1941 ­ 1944*,
(http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc.), for more meticulous
documentation of the logististics  and bureaucracy required to assemble
and kill 25,000 people, and then dispose of their property and assets.
 
> Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
> confessions and what have you.  

Rumbula was the subject of several trials, the nmost important being the
1978 trial of Victors Arajs in Hamburg in 1978. Evidence was presented
against several participants in the Rumbula massacre, including Jahnke,
Tuchel, Neuman, and Diedrich. Rumbula is the best documented public mass
murder of Jews carried out by the Nazis.

> It was the subject of quite a splendid Soviet trial I believe.

It was, but far from splendid. For easily understood reasons, the Soviet
court in Riga was not sympathetic in early 1946 to captured Nazi
mass-murderer Friedrich Jeckeln and his closest associates.  He was tried
more for being a high-level Nazi leader and police head than specifically
for the horrible crimes that he organized and implemented on Soviet
territory, see http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=362. For Jeckeln's
testimony, see
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/jeckeln.html.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:02 EDT 2006
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
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Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
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In article <1114252290.072503.172320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> 
> I'm going from memory here, but I believe the storytellers claim that
> the Jewish victims at Rumbula were killed by Latvians using Russian
> weapons. 

Don't go from memory if you have better sources available:

On the weapons used:

Source: http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf



8) Russian submachine guns were used, because the clip had fifty bullets
and could be set on single shots [12];  
********************
[12]    Landgericht Hamburg: Jahnke¹s Trial Records, deposition of
Herbert, Georg, Wolfgang, Paul Degenhart. Degenhart is the main source for
the weapons used. Zingler in his testimony says that he had a Finnish
weapon, but, unless it could use the same ammunition as the Russian ones,
I think he is wrong. Deposition of Zingler,  p. 6. Also see Arâjs Trial
Records, p. 2133 a.



On the killers:


Jeckeln ordered his body guard, consisting of ten to twelve men, to do the
killing in the pits. Among them Endl, Lüschen, and Wedekind had done this
for Jeckeln before. To enlarge the killer team and obtain some reserves,
he asked the leader of his drivers' commando, Oberführer Johannes Zingler,
to participate in the executions. Jeckeln reminded Zingler of his recent
demotion and told him that he would prove himself by participating in the
killings. Zingler answered that he would prefer to go the front to prove
his worth. Jeckeln replied to Zingler that if he wanted to see his family,
he should obey the order. ³I knew what he could do to me² (Ich würde ihn
ja kennen), Zingler testified in 1961. ³He also pointed out to me that I
was not a regular soldier with him, but rather one who had something to
prove.²[19]  Zingler agreed to participate.
Hoping to find some reserves for the killing team, Jeckeln summoned his
twelve-man detail of drivers to his Rîga Ritterhaus headquarters and
revealed to them that he needed an execution commando
(Erschiessungskommando). ³He made them understand that he had some people
who had already done something like that, but he needed some additional
men to lighten the load of the others. He asked for volunteers,
immediately adding, however, that he would not think badly of them if they
did not sign up because the job was unpleasant.²[20]  None of the drivers
volunteered.[21] 

Jeckeln did not consider Latvians for the assignment. First, as an SS man
he had to confront the German innere Schweinehund, and, further, the
resident German SD men did not recommend the Latvians. Paul Botor, a
transport officer with the KdS in Rîga, remembered a rumor that circulated
among the SD, that the Latvians were killing too slowly. ³The matter,²
Botor testified, ³was communicated to SS and Police Leader Jeckeln.
Jeckeln wanted to show with his marksmen that he could do better.²[22]

********************
[19]   Arâjs Trial Records, deposition of Zingler, p. 2133 a. Also see
Landgerich Hamburg: Indictment of Oberwinder et al., p. 61. 
[20]   Landgericht Hamburg: Indictment of Oberwinder et al. pp. 62-63.
[21]   Jeckeln testified at his trial that the killing was done by ten to
twelve men. In other words, he did not find the reserves that he was
seeking.
[22]   Arâjs Trial Records, deposition of Botor, 26 October 1977, pp. 9227-28.

  



< I don't think any serious search for graves was ever made at
> Rumbula.   

You don't *think*?

Source: ibid.



Reclaiming of Rumbula

Under the second Soviet domination of Latvia, Jewish culture was
suppressed.[96]  Rumbula was not an event that the Soviets wanted to
commemorate. Up to 1960, the Rumbula grounds were completely neglected and
overgrown. Only in 1961 did young Jews of Rîga begin a search for the
location of Rumbula.[97]  They found burned bones and other remains from
the massacre.[98]   The grounds were in an especially disorderly shape
because in 1944 the Nazis had partly disinterred the victims to burn them.


******************
[96]   Leonard Schroeter, The Last Exodus  (New York: Universe Books,
1974), p. 61. This fact is corroborated by numerous other ex-Soviet
sources. Nora Levin, The Jews in the Soviet Union since 1917. Paradox of
Survival. Vol. II (New York: New York University Press, 1988), pp. 599-14;
Alla Rusinek, Like a Song. Like a Dream: A Soviet Girl's Quest for Freedom
(New York: Scribners, 1973), pp. 251-56; Vladimir Lazaris, ³The Saga of
Jewish Samizdat,² Soviet Jewish Affairs, Vol. 9, No. 1 (1979); David
Garber, ²Choir and Drama in Rîga,² Soviet Jewish Affairs, Vol. 4, No. 1
(1974), pp. 39-44; Mordecai Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli: A First Hand
Account,² Jewish Frontier, June 1971, pp. 10-19.
[97]   Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli,² gives the most detailed
description of the Rumbula episode. Schroeter, The Last Exodus, bases his
version of an interview with Leah Bliner, a Rîga Zionist activist. 
[98]   Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli.²




> Some people just started putting up monuments claiming
> thousands of Jews were killed and buried in mass graves.  It's a
> typical technique of the German-hating holocaust promoters.

That's a pretty simplistic hypothesis.

Ghettoizing the Jews of Riga was a complex task, involving public
announcements, the construction of a ghetto, moving non-Jews out of the
ghetto area and Jews into it. Since more than 20,000 people were involved,
this generated vast amounts of paper work.

Liquidating the ghetto in two stages, on November 30 and December 8, 1941,
resulted in the shooting of hundreds of people in the ghetto on each day,
as well as of hundreds more people along the road from the ghetto to the
killing site. These killings were done in public in broad daylight and are
well documented, you can even see photgrpahs of them at the Museum of the
Occupation of Latvia
[http://www.occupationmuseum.lv/eng/about_us/welcome.html].
 
> But the claims that Russian weapons were used suggests, at least to me,
> that the Jewish Bolsheviks might have massacred some Latvians at
> Rumbula, just as they mass murdered the Polish intelligentsia at Katyn.

The Soviets had recently been chased out of Latvia, but their matériel
remained. Hardly surprising. Mainstream historians, whether Latvian,
German, or Russian, agree that the Rumbula massacre was carried out by the
Nazis under the supervision of SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln.
Additional corroberation is provided by the fact that only after the
inhabitants of the Riga ghetto had been liquidated did large scale
deportations of Central European Jews to Latvia begin in january, 1942.
They were, of course, housed in the ghetto or in concentration camps such
as Salaspils.

>   One popular way the Bolsheviks used to avoid being accused of war
> crimes  was to accuse the Germans first.  An archeological search at
> Rumbula might produce some interesting results.

The problem is that the Germans were quite proud of the Rumbula massacre.
One reason that Jeckeln had been called in to do the job was to
demonstrate that Stahlecker had not been doing his best with respect to
implementing the Führerbefehl:

Source: ibid.



The Arrival of Jeckeln
By October 1941 Stahlecker had only been able to kill about 30,000 of the
66,000 Jews that the Germans had trapped in Latvia. The reasons for
Stahlecker's failure to fulfill the fundamental orders are complex, but
they certainly include his preoccupation with Leningrad,[2]  the failure
of Latvians to kill fast enough, and the early arrival of the Hinrich
Lohse's civilian government in Latvia. Lohse was not obligated to carry
out the Führer Befehl; his orders from Alfred Rosenberg were to raise the
productivity of the Ostland and to supply the army with daily necessities
and hardware. Lohse's program for the Jews was to drive them into the
ghettos, expropriate their property, and exploit their labor. Also
Hans-Adolf Prützman, the High commander of SS and the Police (HSSPF) in
the Baltic and Belarus, who, was in charge of the Jews after Stahlecker
moved east, played a passive role.[3]

***************
[2]   According to his aide Dr. Emil Finnberg, Stahlecker was after a
Ritterkreutz, which he could only earn by participation in battles (Aråjs
Trial Records, deposition, 13 January 1960, SB I, p. 43).
[3]   The role of Hans-Adolf Prützman, who died a suicide, has not been
studied or explained.



You evidently are willing to concede that there was a massacre at Rumbula,
but suspect that the Soviets carried it out.

This alternative theory raises some interesting questions:

1. The Soviets were chased out of Latvia during the summer of 1941, but
the Rumbula massacre only took place during the early winter, on November
30 and December 8.
2. The victims of the Rumbula massacre were the inhabitants of the Riga
ghetto. The laws requiring the Jews of Riga to be registered and move to
the gheto were promlugated by the Nazis during the fall of 1941, long
after the Soviets had left.
3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the man who organized the
massacre, had a fifty-man staff that worked in Riga for more than two
months organizing, and implementing the massacre, and then cleaning up,
storing, sorting, and either selling or shipping back to Germany the
personal property and assets of 25,000 people. This generated a vast
amount of paperwork, most of which is still in Latvian and German
archives.
4. The Rumbula massacre was the subject of several trials in Germany after
the war. Nobody based his defense on a claim that it never happened or
that the Soviets carried it out.

British Intelligence surreptitiously recorded a conversation in which
Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns, whose job it had been to collect valuables
in the pits, discusses Rumbula with fellow German POWs:


Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html



TRANSLATION 

BRUNS: As soon as I heard those Jews were to be shot on Friday I went to a
21-year old boy and said that they had made themselves very useful in the
area under my command, besides which the Army MT park had employed 1500
and the 'Heeresgruppe' 800 women to make underclothes of the stores we
captured in RIGA; besides which about 1200 women in the neighbourhood of
RIGA were turning millions of captured sheepskins into articles we
urgently required: ear-protectors, fur caps, fur waistcoats, etc. Nothing
had been provided, as of course the Russian campaign was known to have
come to a victorious end in October 1941! In short, all those women were
employed in a useful capacity. I tried to save them. I told that fellow
ALTENMEYER(?) whose name I shall always remember and who will be added to
the list of war criminals: "Listen to me, they represent valuable
man-power!" 'Do you call Jews valuable human beings, sir?" I said: "Listen
to me properly, I said valuable man-power'. I didn't mention their value
as human beings." He said: "Well, they're to be shot in accordance with
the FÜHRER's orders ! I said: "FÜHRER's orders?" "Yes", whereupon he
showed me his orders. This happened at SKIOTAWA(?), 8 km. from RIGA,
between SIAULAI and JELGAVA, where 5000 BERLIN Jews were suddenly taken
off the train and shot. I didn't see that myself, but what happened at
SKIOTAWA(?) - to cut a long story short, I argued with the fellow and
telephoned to the General at HQ, to JAKOBS and ABERGER (?), and to a Dr.
SCHULTZ who was attached to the Engineer General, on behalf of these
people; I told him: "Granting that the Jews have committed a crime against
the other peoples of the world, at least let them do the drudgery; send
them to throw earth on the roads to prevent our heavy lorries skidding,"
"Then I'd have to feed them!" I said: "The little amount of food they
receive, let's assume 2 million Jews - they got 125 gr. of bread a day -
if we can't even manage that, the sooner we end the war the better." Then
I telephoned, thinking it would take some time. At any rate on Sunday
morning I heard that they 

/2 

 

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- 2 - 

BRUNS:  had already started on it. The Ghetto was cleared and they were
told: "You're being transferred: take along your essential things."
Incidentally it was a happy release for those people, as their life in the
Ghetto was a martyrdom. I wouldn't believe it and drove there, to have a
look. 

  ?  : Everyone abroad knew about it; only we Germans were kept in ignorance. 

BRUNS:  I'll tell you something: some of the details may have been
correct, but it was remarkable that the firing squad detailed that morning
- six men with tommy-guns were posted at each pit; the pits were 24 m in
length and 3 m in breadth - they had to lie down like sardines in a tin,
with their heads in the centre. Above there were six men with tommy-guns
who gave them the coup de gr?ce. When I arrived those pits were so full
that the living had to lie down on top of the dead; then they were shot
and, in order to save room, they had to lie down neatly in layers. Before
this, however, they were stripped of everything at one of the stations -
here at the edge of the wood were the three pits they used that Sunday and
here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step - a
queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on.
About here they had to hand over their jewellery and suitcases. All good
stuff was put into the suit-cases and the remainder thrown on a heap. This
was to serve as clothing for our suffering population - and then a little
further on they had to undress and, 500 m in front of the wood, strip
completely; they were only permitted to keep on a chemise or knickers.
They were all women and small two year-old children. Then all those
cynical remarks! If only I had seen those tommy-gunners, who were relieved
every hour - because of over-exertion, carry out their task with distaste,
but no, nasty remarks like: "Here comes a Jewish beauty!" I can still see
it all in my memory: a pretty woman in a flame-coloured chemise. Talk
about keeping the race pure: at RIGA they first slept with them and then
shot them to prevent them from talking. Then I sent two officers out
there, one of whom is still alive, because I wanted eye-witnesses. " I
didn't tell them what was going on, but said: "Go out to the forest of
SKIOTAWA(?), see what's up there and send me a report." I added a
memorandum to their report and took it to JAKOBS myself. He said: "I have
already two complaints sent me by Engineer 'Bataillone' from the UKRAINE."
There they shot them on the brink of large crevices and let them fall down
into them; they nearly had an epidemic of plague, at any rate a
pestilential smell. They thought they could break off the edges with
picks, thus burying them. That loess there was so hard that two Engineer
'Bataillone' were required to dynamite the edges; those 'Battaillone'
complained. JAKOBS had received that complaint. He said: "We didn't quite
know how to tell the FÜHRER . We'd better do it through CANARIS." CANARIS
had the unsavoury task of waiting for the favourable moment to give the
FÜHRER certain gentle hints. A fortnight later I visited the
Oberbürgermeister or whatever he was called then, concerning some other
business. ALTENMEYER(?) triumphantly showed me: "Here is an order, just
issued, prohibiting mass-shootings on that scale from taking place in
future. They are to be carried out more discreetly." From warnings given
me recently I knew that I was receiving still more attentions from spies. 

  ?  : A wonder you're still alive. 

BRUNS: At GÖTTINGEN, I expected to be arrested every day. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:03 EDT 2006
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.british,alt.revisionism
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:47:58 +0300
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In article <161i615reg2ibit850941aj6cv9741tg07@4ax.com>, scott@free.info wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:20:48 +0300, holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene
> Holman) wrote:
>
> >Has anyone ever done conducted a scientifically controlled study of the
> >sites of the alleged San Quentin gas chamber, utilising anything like
> >acceptable scientific methodology? In any case, you are wrong.
> 
> Why should they? It was a gas chamber designed to be a gas chamber.
> There is documentation to verify its use, including autopsy reports.
> Your point is not taken.

It was a gas chamber designed to be a *penal gas chamber*, and a certain
amount of documentation to verify its use is necessary. Were that
documentation to disappear, however, how could it be proven that it was
indeed a gas chamber?

The Nazi gas chambers were *not* built as penal gas chambers, but rather
as covert, innocuous looking structures where unsuspecting people could be
gassed and which would leave a minumum of evidence. It is quite consistent
that there is little documentation, and it would be quite absurd if
autopsies had been carried out, thus generating tell-tale evidence..
 
> >Leuchter's report was neither scientifically controlled nor an
> >instantiation of acceptable scientific methodology.
> 
> Well, bubba, that's a big statement I don't think you are prepared
> (or qualified) to address.

I am both prepared and qualified, having studied analytical chemistry and
worked in the field. I reiterate: Leuchter's report was neither
scientifically controlled nor an instantiation of acceptable scientific
methodology.

> > His single "control"
> >sample was taken from a visibly blue stained area in a room where the blue
> >staining on the walls and ceiling was irregular.
> 
> Perhaps you can tell us about the location he *should have* sampled.

There is nothing wrong with taking a sample from a visibly blue stained
area, but there is something *very* wrong about selecting this as the
*only* sample. The walls of the delousing chambers are not uniformly
stained, but rather have a patterns of blue splotches and unstained areas.
If he had been honest, Leuchter would have taken samples in the delousing
chamber from places that were visibly deeply blue stained, slightly blue
stained, and unstained. By taking only a single sample from a deeply blue
stained area Leuchter "stacked the deck".
 
> > His sampling technique in
> >the field, as well as the analytical procedure used by the lab to which he
> >entrusted the samples for the final analsis, were methodologically
> >unacceptable and injected uncontrolled amounts of extraneous material into
> >his samples. 
> 
> Please comment, in your own words, on what field sampling tecniques
> "were methodologically unacceptable."

The cyanide compounds would have formed on the surface of the walls, for
which reason scraping samples should have been taken. Leuchter took bulk
samples, thus contaminating the material from the surface of the wall with
material from behind it. The laboratory was not properly informed about
the reason the analysis was to be carried out, and they thus assumed that
they were to test the  entire sample and used a procedure that involved
taking a sample from a sample and crushing it. An analogy would be trying
to analyze the grit under a fingernail by putting an entire hand into a
blender and analyzing the resulting pulp.

> I'd also like to know why you disagree with the "analytical procedure"
> used by Alpha Labs.

Source: http://www.njjewishnews.com/issues/1_27_00/cj/arts/text/story1.html 



More telling still is the interview with James Roth, the managing
chemist of the lab Leuchter used to analyze the Auschwitz samples. Roth
says that had they known the purpose of the analysis, the lab would
have used a totally different method. He says that because the gas
remains only on a very shallow surface of material-- 10 microns (100
microns is the width of a hair) -- the lab would not have ground the
material into powder, thereby obscuring whether the actual material
tested had been on the surface They were requested to analyze for the
presence (yes/no) of cyanide compounds, not for the amount (how much). The
numbers they produced to indicate presence were misused by Leuchter, who
presented them as
quantitive data, the data produced by a rigorous quantitative
analytical technique. That is why the Judge Pearson, who certainly has
seen legitimate quantitative analyses before, dismissed Leuchter's
report as "preposterous" at the Zündel trial.




> ============================================ 

> Also your string of words; "injected uncontrolled amounts of
> extraneous material into his samples" prove you are light in the
> science department.

Read the above. That is precisely what Leuchter did, and this is one of
the reasons that the results of the analysis have no quantitative
significance.
 
> >To be anything approaching scientific Leuchter would at least
> >have had to take additional control samples from places in the same room
> >that did not show blue staining, as well as samples from places known
> >never to have been exposed to cyanide. 
> 
> You need to brush up on control sampling, Eugene.  

A necessary and sufficient control sample would have been from a place
known never to have been exposed to cyanide. As it is, Leuchter took a
single control sample from a place known to have been exposed to
tremendous amounts of cyanide,  but in which the cyanide had left visibly
different kinds of results. It is dishonest to take a single sample from a
dark splotch of Prussian blue, particularly if the same environment has
places with pale splotches and even no splotches. It is Leuchter that
needs to have a brushup.

> 
> >Leuchter's procedural and
> >methodological shortcomings are addressed in the far superior report
> >produced by the IFRC accessible at the URL given above.
> 
> Which "far superior report" are you speaking of?  The first one that
> confirmed Leuchter's findings and was swept under the carpet or the
> second pathertic report that didn't even address the Prussian blue
> staining?

The second one. It did not address the Prussian blue staining because, as
it explains, the presence of Prussian blue is not a reliable indicator of
exposure to cyanide. Instad of looking for Prussian blue, which is
sometimes formed upon exposure to cyanide, the second Cracow report tested
for residual cyanide ions, a far more reliable indicator of exposure to
cyanide.
 
> NOTE to readers: watch how Eugene pontificates about things he has no
> education to pontificate on.

I have had university level courses in analytical chemistry and have work
experience in laboratories conducting qualitative and quantitative
analysis, thank you very much.

> NOTE to Eugene: I'm going to eat your lunch on this one, pal.
> The Crakow Report (1994 version) is going to bite the dust thanks to
> Philip Mathews encouragement to analyze it.

Doubtful.

 
> > Leuchter also made
> >the logically fatal blunder of claiming that places that could be
> >fumigated with cyanide could not be used to kill people with cyanide, even
> >though fumigation uses far higher concentrations of cyanide that have to
> >be maintained for far longer than killing people would require.

I note that you fail to comment on this fatal error in Leuchter's thinking.



Scientifically,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:03 EDT 2006
Article: 1040487 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hungary remembers the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:24:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Source:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113619390054


Hungary remembers the Holocaust 

Associated Press, THE JERUSALEM POST 
Apr. 16, 2005 

Hungarians held a series of memorial events on Saturday honoring the some
550,000 Hungarian Jews killed during the Holocaust. 

The occasion marked the 61st anniversary of what is considered the start
of the Holocaust in Hungary, when countryside Jews began to be rounded up
and deported to Nazi concentration camps on April 16, 1944. 

Hungary was an ally of Nazi Germany, and deportations of Jews began after
Nazi forces occupied the country. In less than two months, 437,000 Jews
were deported, all but 15,000 to Auschwitz and the nearby Birkenau camp. A
third of Auschwitz victims were Hungarian. 

Former prime minister Viktor Orban, whose center-right government
instituted Hungary's Holocaust Memorial Day in 2000, said at a morning
ceremony that Hungary must never again have dictatorial regimes in which
innocent people are killed because of their origin. 

"Everyone in Hungary, regardless of race, age or sex, has the right to
liberty, security and the respect of their human dignity," Orban said
outside the House of Terror, a museum dedicated to the atrocities
committed by the Nazis and, later, the communist regime in Hungary. 

Saturday's main memorial event will be the "March of the Living," a
candlelit walk through the Budapest neighborhood which was turned into a
Jewish ghetto near the end of World War II. 

Some 70,000 Jews - mainly women, children and the elderly - are thought to
have survived the terrible conditions in the ghetto until it was liberated
by the Soviet army in January 1945. 

Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany will inaugurate a new memorial to
Holocaust victims on an embankment of the Danube River. 

Sculptor Gyula Pauer's work consists of 60 pairs of shoes cast in iron,
representing the footwear of some of the many hundreds of victims shot on
the river banks by the Arrow Cross, the Nazis' Hungarian allies and
henchmen. 

At the same time, however, 200 Hungarian far-right supporters, including
skinheads, held a rally Saturday outside the German Embassy in support of
Ernst Zundel and others jailed in Germany for denying the Holocaust. 

Organizers - including the Blood and Honor skinhead group, the Hungarian
National Front and Conscience 88 - are hoping to deliver a petition to the
German Embassy in support of Zundel, a white supremacist jailed in
Germany. 

German prosecutors accuse Zundel, who was deported to Germany from Canada
in March, of decades of anti-Semitic activities, including repeated
denials of the Holocaust - a crime in Germany. 

Embassy officials said no one would be available there to receive the petition. 

Gusztav Zoltai, executive director of the Federation of Hungarian Jewish
Communities, said it was shameful that authorities allowed the rally to be
held on Holocaust Memorial Day. 

Since it was a Saturday, when Jews observe the Sabbath, they would not be
able to hold a counter-rally, Zoltai told the daily Magyar Hirlap. 




From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:03 EDT 2006
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:08:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4268dc37$1_1@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:

> 
> 
> Logic and the holocau$t:
> 
> 
> >Since news of the massacre
> > was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow,
> 
> 
> So we are being told that the news about the terrible massacre of jews
> reached the same day BBC, Radio Sweden and Radio Moscow - already in 
> December 1941 ! 

This is something that can be easily verified by checking archives and
newspapers from that time. Nazi-occupied Riga was a relatively open port
city with consular officials, foreign correspondents, and foreign
intelligence agents. News of the public massacre of the Jews and ruthless
liquidation of the centrally located Riga ghetto on November 30 and
December 8, 1941, was discussed in the local and international media. See 
http://www.am.gov.lv/en/news/Newsletters/History/4212/  for a link to the
speeches given by members of the Latvian government on the occasion of the
dedication of the mument at Rumbula. Legends and "stories" would hardly
generate responses of this type at such a high level of government.

> - but for some "strange" reason the news did not have 
> any effect/impact on the another cca. 4 - 5 000 000 jews - they simply 
> sat back and conveniently waited to become the holocau$t victims.

No they didn't. The Jews in Latvia were literally trapped. Some of them
had managed to escape with the withdrawing Soviet administration and
military, but many of them were anti-Soviet and could not imagine that the
Nazis could be worse than the Soviets had been. The Riga massacre was not
the first public mass murder of Latvian Jews, nor was it the last. During
the fall of 1941 the Jews of Daugavpils had been publicly massacred, and
slightly more than a week after the Rumbala massacre had been completed
the Jews of Liepâja were publicly massacred, thius massacre being
exceptionally well documented in photographs and film (see e.g.
http://www.holocaust-education.dk/holocaust/massemordetsovjetiskejoder.asp).
They did not "simply sit back", but they had few choices, since their
movements were controlled by strict curfews and prohibitions on using
public or private means of transportation.
 
> how stupid has someone to be to buy such crap ?

The Soviets arrested and deported hundreds of thousands of Balts after the
war, and the east German regime trapped its entire citizenry in August,
1961, by constructing the Berlin Wall. Trapping people and ensuring that
they will meet the fate that their oppressors have for them is something
any dictatorship worthy of the name knows how to do.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:04 EDT 2006
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:26:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4268de8a_7@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:

> 
> > On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
> > was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
> > followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
> > as the Arâjs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
> > women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
> > countryside and smaller towns.
> 
> That 's a lie. 

Sez you.

Source: http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html


Most, if not all, other killing actions in Latvia involved a much smaller
number of participants. Jews were driven from the camps to the killing
grounds in groups of twenty to thirty, depending on the size of the
trucks. Upon arrival,     the group was quickly killed. This method
required very few guards. One dozen guards would have sufficed. The
killing would be done by twenty to forty men, sometimes fewer. This was
the method used by Arajs commando in the Bikernieki murders and in most
small-town killings. The massacres in Liepaja and Daugavpils fell
somewhere in between, but in general the Bikernieki pattern was followed.
In comparison to Jeckeln's procedure and the conveyor-belt methods in the
killing camps of Poland, this was a slow process. Nevertheless, the
numbers added up: about one hundred Jews could be killed in one hour. It
would take about one day to kill 1,000 people. The Arajs team, traveling
in its infamous     blue bus, on occasion stopped in several places on the
same day. Not all of the small-town Jews were killed by Arajs' men.
Sometimes the killing in places such Madona, Nereta, and Kuldiga, was done
by local policemen. That was an exception, and in the small towns of 
Latvia the complicity of the Latvian policemen consisted of their standing
guard at the detention centers and the killing grounds. Perhaps no more
than 1,000 Latvian policemen, in addition to those in Riga, were involved
in the killings. Assigning responsibility to the local policemen is a
difficult if not impossible problem. The density of the     population of
Jews in Latvia differed greatly from district to district. In localities
of high Jewish concentration the participation of Latvians could be
expected to be higher.  But, those were also the cities most frequently
visited by the Arajs commando. Nine locations with the highest
concentration of Jews in Latvia accounted for about 85 percent of Latvian
Jews. Consequently, most of Latvia's policemen had no dealings at all with
Jews. Soviet propaganda has attempted to link the Schutzmannschaft
battalions to the killing of the Jews, but it must be noted that the first
of these battalions were organized only in late 1941 and early 1942, when
the Jews of Latvia were already dead. 




> None ever gave any orders, and none ever systematically 
> killed "jewish men, women and children".

Tell that to SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger, the author of the Jäger
Report,
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm .
 
> SS and locals killed bandits [including jewish bandits] and 
> jewish-bolsheviks and commisars. Local people were motivated because 
> they wanted to retaliate for jewish-bolshewik crimes committed during 
> the soviet occupation.

Source: http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/hiwis.html



Latvian Hiwis were organised under the command of Viktors Arajs.  By
mid-October 1941 more than 30,000 Latvian Jews had been killed by German
police and their  Latvian auxiliaries grouped in Schutzmannschaft
Battalions. One such battalion, the  21st, executed 2,749 Jews on 15 - 17
December, 1941 on a beach near Liepaja (Liebau). The operation was
photographed  and filmed by SS-Scharführer Carl Emil Strott (see * below).
In 1942, Latvian police battalions were active in the Ukraine, 
Byelorussia and the Generalgouvernement. Among them was the Arajs
Kommando,  which trained at a German SD school at Fürstenberg near Berlin.
Some members of this Kommando were  sent to Minsk and took part in mass
killings at Maly Trostinec. In Warsaw,  two battalions assisted in the
rounding-up of Jews for transport to Treblinka,  guarding the
Umschlagplatz and taking part in the suppression of the Warsaw ghetto
uprising. In time, more than 100,000 Latvians  were to wear a German
uniform. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:04 EDT 2006
Article: 1040498 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
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In article <4268da26$1_2@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:


> 
> There was no Rumbula "massacre", and there was no holocau$t - it is a fraud.

The president of Lavia disagrees with you:

Source: http://www.am.gov.lv/en/news/speeches/2002/nov/3508/


Address of the President of the Republic of Latvia, Vaira Vike-Freiberga, 
on the occasion of the dedication of the memorial 
to the victims of the Nazis at Rumbula 

29 November 2002 

Excellencies, 
Rabbi, 
Ladies and Gentlemen! 

We have gathered here to dedicate a memorial to more than 25,000 persons
who were killed here on 30 November and 8 December 1941. This is one of
the darkest dates, perhaps the very darkest date, in Latvia's history; it
is the day when this site became marked by bloodshed and lamentation.
Thousands upon thousands of innocent people were brutally murdered here
merely because for centuries and millennia they had been faithful to their
ethnic identity and religion. They had faithfully served their god and
maintained the traditions of their forefathers. 

The Holocaust, in its many forms, has painfully struck Latvia. Here in
Rumbula where the earthly remains of Latvia's Jews rest, we have come to
honour and remember them. I wish therefore to extend a special greeting to
the representatives of Latvia's Jewish community for whom this is special
day of mourning, all the more so since here lie their loved ones,
relatives, and members of their faith. 

But this is also a day of mourning and commemoration for all of Latvia,
because these events took place on Latvia's soil and our people took part
in them. We know that this collective madness was organised by Himmler in
Berlin who called Friedrich Jaeckeln to come to Riga from Kiev since he
had already finished the monstrous massacre at Babij Yar. Tasked with the
liquidation of the Riga Ghetto, Jaeckeln personally selected the
murderers, riflemen from his staff, Germans whom he trusted and who were
given the choice of taking part or not taking part in this action. But
Jaeckeln also mobilized all of the SS and SD occupation forces, as well as
members of the Riga police, to surround the ghetto, vacate it, drive the
people on an eight-kilometre march to Rumbula, and then along the path of
death, which we have also walked today, to the big trenches that had been
dug by Russian prisoners of war. 

This is an atrocious act of violence, an atrocious massacre. And it is our
duty, the duty of those of us who have survived, to pass on the
commemoration of these innocent victims to future generations, to remember
with compassion, sorrow and reverence. Our duty is to teach our children
and children's children about it, our duty is to seek out the survivors
and record their recollections, but, above all, our duty is to see that
this will never happen again. 

All of us, throughout the world, must be on guard against manifestations
of enmity between nations and religions; we must be on guard against
intolerance, signs and activities of seeking a scapegoat. We must be on
guard against people who blame their suffering, disappointment and
complications, on some other, any other easily identifiable group, and
believe that with its annihilation the world will be in order. That is not
just discrimination and hatred, but insanity. What the men of the Nazi
occupation forces did here was insane: motivated by paranoia; these people
came here with weapons and tanks to seize power. In the future every one
of us must see that in no country can power be seized by the insane,
paranoid, those who are ready for massacres. Today we have all come here
to commemorate innocent victims, to recall their names - we don't even
know all of them but we shall try to find them - to remember their
suffering, and to bend our heads in the face of their suffering. 



So does the American ambassador to Latvia:

Source: http://www.usembassy.lv/EN/archives/carlsonsp/rumbula


Remarks at Rumbula Memorial Dedication Ceremony, November 29, 2002 

Riga Jewish Community Center 
November 29, 2002 

Today is about Rumbula and what happened there. 

The eyewitnesses and the historians agree on what happened.  In the
Rumbula forest on November 30 and December 8, 1941, 1,700 executioners
murdered more than 25,000 Jews.  Of those 1,700 killers, between 1,000 and
1,500 were residents of Latvia drawn from the SD, precinct police, Riga
city police, battalion police being trained for military action in Russia,
and some 100 Latvian ghetto guards.  The execution was carried out in the
most cruel and heartless way, under the direction of the Nazi Obergruppen
fuehrer Jeckeln. 

The question of why human beings engage in such savagery is not only an
anthropological question. If we mean to safeguard civilization and
democracy, we have to examine the events and the participants, and we have
to understand its relevance to us and to our times. 

Recently in Riga there has been discussion, especially in newspapers, of
how to describe the participants in the Rumbula killings.  Some people say
that not all the Latvians were there voluntarily.  Some say nothing done
in those times under Nazi occupation was "voluntary." Some say those were
complicated times.   Some say that we should not mention the Latvian
participation, because it was not voluntary.  Some say that we should
forget about the Latvian participation. 

It is uncanny that some people are adopting the Nuremburg defense used by
the Nazis at their postwar trial.  They too denied responsibility for
their actions, saying they were "just following orders." 

How sad that anyone in todays free and democratic Latvia would excuse this
kind of crime by saying "it was a complicated time" or the executioners
were not "volunteers." 

What we have learned from 20th century history is that no man has to
follow orders.  Each of us has a moral and ethical obligation to do what
is right.  We have the duty to recognize evil and immoral acts. We have
the duty to refuse to take part in them.  We are all volunteers on this
earth. 

And, how do we teach this morality, this internal ethical standard to our
children?  We teach them the lessons of the past.  We do not pretend that
evil never happens.  We do not cover up the awful truth. 

No, we print it in big letters and we make sure everyone reads it.  We
make sure everyone knows that this was an evil that no one of us must ever
let happen again. 

That is why we are here today.  That is why a monument to the victims of
Rumbula matters.  That is why it matters what we write on that monument.  
It is the truth. 


Even SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln would have disagreed with you:

Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html


The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln 

In his interrogation on 14 December 1945, (1) Minutes the Higher SS and
Police Leader Jeckeln detailed the operations that fell within the
framework of the Final Solution in the East: 

The shootings were carried out under the direction of Colonel Dr. Lange,
Commander of the SD and Gestapo in Latvia. Knecht was in charge of
security at the liquidation sites. (2) I, Jeckeln, took part in the
shootings on three occasions; the same holds for Lange, Knecht, Lohse, and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police in Riga. 


Q: Who did the shooting? 

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers. 

Q: What was the procedure? 

A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to the liquidation
site. Near the pits, they had to deposit their overclothes, which were
washed, sorted, and shipped back to Germany. Jews - men, women, and
children - passed through police cordons on their way to the pits, where
they were shot by German soldiers. 

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in Riga had
been liquidated. And then when I was in Lötzen, East Prussia, in December
1941, I reported in person, too. (3) Himmler was satisfied with the
results. He said that more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia,
and these were to be liquidated by me also. 

Q: Go into more detail. 

A: At the end of January 1942, (4) I was at Himmler's headquarters in
Lötzen, East Prussia, to discuss organizational matters regarding the
Latvian SS legions. There Himmler informed me that additional Jewish
convoys were due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries. The
destination point would be the Salaspils concentration camp, which lay one
and a quarter miles from Riga in the direction of Dünaburg. Himmler said
that he had not yet determined how he would have them exterminated:
whether to have them shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils, or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere. 

Q: How was the matter resolved? 

A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker death.
Himmler said he would think it over and then give orders later through
Heydrich. 

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium,
Holland,Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews from the camp were exterminated. But
I would like to make an additional statement while we are on this topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A: I would like to say for the record that Göring shares in the guilt for
the liquidations of Jewish convoys that arrived from other countries. In
the first half of February 1942 I received a letter from Heydrich. In this
letter he wrote that Reich Marshall Göring had gotten himself involved in
the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped to the East for
annihilation only with Göring's approval. 

Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils. 

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews in
Salaspils with Himmler in Lötzen. That alone makes me an accessory to this
crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot in Salaspils camp by forces recruited
>from my SD and Security Police units. The commander of the SD and Gestapo
in Latvia, Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was directly in charge of the
shootings. Other officers who reported to me on the shooting of Jews in
the camp were the commander of the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States,
Major General Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police
Fuchs. 

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you? 

A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation. 

Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be known too, isn't
that correct? 

A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The first
Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November 1941. Then, in the first
half of 1942, convoys arrived at regular intervals. I believe that in
November 1941, no more than three convoys arrived in all, but during the
next seven months, from December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve
convoys arrived each month. Overall, in eight months, no less than
fifty-five and no more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived in camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a total of
55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp. 

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth? 

A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however, that
before my arrival in Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and
in White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this fact. (5) 

Q: By whom, specifically? 

Stahlecker; Prützmann; Lange; Major General Schröder, the SS and Police
Leader in Latvia; Major General Möller, the SS and Police Leader in
Estonia; and Major General Wysocki, the SS and Police Leader in Lithuania.


Q: Be specific. What did they report? 

A: Schröder reported to me that over and above those Jews who had been
exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an additional 70,000 to 100,000 Jews
were exterminated in Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings.
Möller reported that in Estonia everything was in order as far as the
Jewish question was concerned. The Estonian Jewish population was
insignificant, all in all about 3,000 to 5,000 and this was reduced to
nil. The greater part were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki reported that
100,000 to 200,000 Jews were exterminated - shot - in Lithuania, on
Stahlecker's orders. In Lithuania, the Jewish exterminations were overseen
by the commander of the SD and Gestapo, Lieutenant Colonel of Police
Jäger. Later Jäger told me that he had become neurotic as a result of
these shootings. Jäger was pensioned off and left his post for treatment.
All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the actions in the Baltic
East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500 to 253,000. (6) 



(1) Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8 - 13,
Historical State Archives, Riga. 

(2) Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in Latvia. 

(3) I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Lötzen. 

(4) I.e., 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 p.m.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

On the same day Himmler made the following handwritten entry, re: his
telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 17 [i.e., 5:00 P.M.] SS
Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into concentration camps"NS 19/neu 1439
Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

(5) Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police Leader
for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln personnel file, Berlin Document
Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section,
"Ostland," occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]). 

(6) In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: "Re: executions through 1
February 1942, by the Einsatzkommando 3A: Jews 136,421. Total: 138,272, of
these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464" (Institut für Zeitgeschichte
3253/63 Fb 76 [a]). 



Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of
California Press. 1984. pp. 95 - 98 



If you have information that proves that they are wrong, or even worse,
lying, do you not have the responsibility to make it known to the media
and the relevant authorities?

Watch Helge run, folks.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 19 12:02:05 EDT 2006
Article: 1040532 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:00:36 +0300
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In article <1114440136.398410.79820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
EmilMll1929@yahoo.com wrote:

> Holman's heavy reliance on the anti-revisionist Ezergailis is noted. As
> I posted before:
> Friedrich Jeckeln was interrogated by Major Zwetajew of the Soviet
> agency SMERSH, the same people who interrogated German Wehrmacht
> officers about the Katyn massacre, found them guilty and subsequently
> hanged them publicly in
> Leningrad.
> Jeckeln's statements are worthless.

Why? 

The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and was then
called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in German
occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact. Major Zwatajew might
have presided over some dishonest trials, but that does not automatically
make everything that Jeckeln confessed to "worthless". Jeckeln presided
over a bureaucracy that officiously produced abundant amounts of
documents, including those generated by the registration of Jews and their
property, the establishment, sealing off, and administration of the Jewish
ghetto in central Riga, the organization and implementation of the Rumbula
massacre, and the classification, evaluation, storage, and disposal of the
property and assets left behind by the more than 24,000 murdered Jews.

There is no disputing the facts that:
1. Nazi Germany invaded Latvia and, with the help of Latvian
collaborators, immediately started assembling and killing Jews in the
countryside and small towns.
2. The Germans captured Riga and declared a variant of the Nuremberg Laws
in force. Latvian Jews were deprived of their citizenship and civil
rights, forced to register, and eventually consigned to the ghetto.
3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had supervised many mass
execuions in the Ukraine, was summoned to Riga by Heinrich Himmler
[Landgericht Hamburg: Urteil gegen Jahnke, p. 54. The order to kill the
Jews of Rîga is also examined by Fleming, *Hitler and the Final Solution*,
Chapters 7 and 8.]
4. Most of the 24,000 inhabitants of the Riga ghetto were marched along
Moscow Road [Maskvas Iela] to the killing site, where trench-like graves
had been dug by Soviet POWs, on November 30 and December 8, 1941. The
march began at 6 in the morning and ended after nightfall. It was done in
full public view, and people who attempted to escape or who could not keep
up were shot in cold blood and left lying along the road until their
bodies were picked up hours later. Several hundred people in the ghetto
were shot on both days for insubordination or because they were unable or
unwilling to join the march to the killing site.
5. The property of the murdred Jews was collected, sorted, stored and
evaluated, and then sold off or shipped to Germany.
6. An operation of this complexity requires careful planning and finely
tuned logistics. Approximately 1,500 people participated as guards,
property gatherers, drivers, interpreters,  or marksmen.
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, whose fifty-man headquarters was
housed in the Riga Ritterhaus, was responsible for organizing and
implementing the massacre.
7. Jeckeln reported to Himmler by telephone, and then later in person, at
Lötzen in late December, 1941, that the job had been completed
successfully.

For a notation in Himmler's diary shortly after the first phase of the
Rumbula massacre see http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html .

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/



British codebreakers intercepted Dec 1, 1941 code messages from Himmler
ordering the SS murderer Jeckeln to report to Headquarters, to be
reprimanded for overstepping the guidelines in liquidating thousands of
German Jews at Riga on Nov 30, 1941  



Note: a trainload of approximately 1,000 Jews from Berlin had arrived at
the Rumbula station in the early morning of November 30, 1941. They were
the first to be awakened, marched to the killing site, made to lie down in
pre-dug graves, and shot. These Berlin Jews were all dead by the time the
first Jews from the ghetto had arrived at 9.00 AM. Later that day Himmler
had telephoned to Heydrich ordering that the trainload of Jews from Berlin
not be liquidated, but it was too late, they had already been shot. See
below.


> Holman: "Jeckeln left a massive paper trail behind him. Himmler's
> diaries contain
> entries dealing with the mass-shootings, "Exekutionen", in Riga"

See, e.g. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html .

There the entry for 13:30 includes a telephone call to Obergruppenführer
Heydrich in Prague, the man who at that time was macromanaging the
Holocaust, that includes "Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung."
Obviously, Himmler knew that a transport of Jews had been sent to Riga to
be liquidated, and he was trying to prevent this, although this time he
was a few hours too late. What better proof could there be of the planned
and coordinated nature of the Holocaust?
> 
> I asked: " I have a copy of Himmler's Dienstkalender. Could you
> specify the page number or the calender date?"
> 
> No answer frm Holman!

See http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note011241.html, where the entry for
13:15 includes "Exekutionen in Riga".

Regards,
Eugene Holman

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