The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:17 EST 2005
Article: 1041362 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's skewed account of the Riga "Blutsonntag" massacre
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 11:21:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 29
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In article
<4272ad51$0$249$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2904051754560001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> > In article , "Kurt Knoll"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> The holocaust industry must survive Holman is part of the Nizkor Gang and
> >> here to create confusion.
> >
> > I am not part of the "Nizkor gang", nor am I here to create confusion. I
> > have listed the references to Himmler's *Dienstkalender*.
> 
> You have listed the "convenient" references. Have you never contributed to 
> the Nizkor project? Are you not quoted on the site?

Nizkor has set up a dossier on me where some of my postings are stored. If
you post to alt.revisionism frequently enough, one will be established for
you as well if the Nizkor gatekeepers judge your input to be of more then
ephemeral value. This is done solely on their initiative, since one of
their objectives is to document dialog pertaining to the Holocaust and its
denial. I have never explicitly contributed anything to the Nizkor
project, but some of my postings are deposited there, as I knew they would
be if I continued to contribute to alt.revisionism.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:17 EST 2005
Article: 1041365 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zimbabwe: It's Time To Eat Elephants
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 12:17:36 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 243
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In article <1114915014.948169.281140@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
lorad474@cs.com wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > > > How is it that you so strongly support the efforts of the Balts

> 
> > > But I will admit that any rollback of unwanted colonialism is
> generally
> > > the most ethical course of enacting justice. Now for the major
> > > differences:
> > >
> > > The native Zimbabwans did not endure a systematic genocide as did
> the
> > > Baltic nations.
> >
> > Yes they did. Their entire culture was plowed under. They were
> consigned
> > to reservations. The Balts never underwent such an indignity.
> 
> What do you call the russian gulags and even the occupied Baltics
> themselves; 'socialist paradises'? I believe you have.

I have *never* called the occupied Baltics "socialist paradises" and I am
certainly aware of the existence of the network of Soviet gulags. In
conjunction with the first Soviet colonization of the Baltics in 1940-41,
tens of thousands of "class enemies" were killed by the Soviet
authorities. During the Nazi colonization between 1941 and 1944 a total of
more than 200,000 natives of the Baltic countries were murdered for being
Jews, Gypsies, or supporters of anti-Nazi movements and ideas.
Additionally, tens of thousands of Jews from Central Europe were sent to
the Baltics and slaughtered by the Nazis and their local collaborators at
places such as Kaunas, Rumbula, Salaspils, Jungefernhof, and Vaivara. The
return of the Soviets in 1944 meant brutal reprisals against Balts who had
cooperated with the Nazis as well as the beginning of mass deportations of
hundreds of thousands Baltic citizens to Siberia and other remote
locations ih the USSR, with a significant percentage of them dying in
transit or shortly thereafter. These mass deportations peaked during the
late 1940s and had ended by the time Stalin died in 1953. 

>From the mid fifties right up until they regained their independence in
1991 life in the Baltic republics of the Soviet Union was relatively
normal. Local cultures and languages were gradually able to re-establish
themselves, the only feature of life that could be characterized as
genocidal, more properly ethnocidal, was the uncontrolled inflow of
migrants from other Soviet republics. In Latvia and Estonia this inflow
reached such proportions that the native population was becoming diluted
and was in danger of becoming a minority in its own titular territory.
Estonia went from being 97% to 62% Estonian between 1944 and 1991;
Latvians accounted for only 52% of the population of Latvia when
independence was restored, at which time they were a minority in all of
the country's major cities. 

The communists expropriated most private property in 1940 and the Nazis
did nothing to return it. Insofar as real estate, farms, land, assets, and
factories that were once privately owned could be restored to their former
owners, a serious effort was made to do so in the Baltic countries after
independence.

The above is a chronicle of terrible events, but the Baltic peoples were
able to emerge from Soviet colonialization and continue much of what had
been interrupted in 1940. The only transition period involved the
withdrawal of Russian troops, a Soviet legacy, this was completed
according to a time schedule worked out in advance and supervised by
international organizations. Otherwise, Baltic cultures are intact and
some of the population losses of the era of colonization have been
partially compensated for by the presence of Soviet-era settlers, the
overwhelming majority of which are urban population with professional
skills and who are currently in the process of going native.

The people of what is now Zimbabwe suffered a fate that was arguably worse
and more debilitating than what the Baltic people were forced to go
through between 1940 and 1991.

Although Cecil Rhodes tends to be portrayed as a noble person, from the
standpoint of the indigenous population of what is now Zimbabwe 
he was the figurehead of an unwelcome foreign invader and a land-grabber.
Unlike the case in the baltics, when the invaders were neighbors trying to
recover land where they had had a presence in the past, Rhodes and his
followers were adventurers who sailed half way around the world to grab
land and assets in a place where Britain had never before had an
historical presence or interests. This makes his activities in southern
Africa all the more brazen.

Source: http://gbgm-umc.org/africa/zim babwe/zprofile.html 

 
Cecil Rhodes , a wealthy British South African diamond-and-gold trader, 
along with other white settlers armed with a mandate from Queen Victoria, 
invaded present-day Zimbabwe from South Africa. Lobengula, the new chief 
of the Ndebele, resisted the invasion, but his troops were defeated. The 
settlers set up the British South Africa Company, which became the basis 
for colonization of the country. In 1897, the Ndebele, led by Lobengula, 
formed an alliance with the Shona to fight the settlers, but the allies 
were defeated by the better-equipped settlers' army. The country became a 
colony of Great Britain. 


On King Lobengula and his efforts to resist the invasion of people who had
come from half way around the world to plunder his country:

Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ce5/ CE031014.html 


Lobengula 

Pronunciation: [lO"beng-gOO´lu] (key) 

c.1833?94, king of Matabeleland (now in Zimbabwe ). After succeeding his father 
(1870), he tried to turn aside the approaches of European colonizers. In 1888, 
however, under pressure from Cecil Rhodes, he ceded his mineral rights in 
exchange for small payment, and Rhodes used those concessions to form the 
British South Africa Company (1889). When British gold miners began 
appearing, Lobengula rallied his people and in 1893 attacked the British. The 
results were disastrous for the Ndebele (Matabele); Lobengula died while
fleeing 
north. 



The Ndebele were unable to resist the British, and they eventually gave up 
resisting them and became agriculturalists. The rapidly increasing 
colonialist population resulted in exacerbated pressure between the 
Ndebele and the British, and tensions were eventually resolved by the 
British confiscating the Ndebele's land, disenfranchising them, and 
forcing them to work as agricultural workers and miners. The Land Act of 
1930 (see below), forced the Ndebele off of most of the arable land and 
destroyed their traditional society. This is the root cause of the present 
dispute.
 

The inhabitants of the territory invaded by the British were civilized by
the standards of the time and area. They were pastoralists and subsistance
farmers who engaged in cottage industry and trade with the coastal cities.
They did not, however, have a tradition of land ownsership with deeds and
titles. That does not mean that the people had no attachment to the land
of their ancestors or lacked a sense of what was theirs and what was not.
This lack of a European-type system of land ownership served in southern
Africa, as it had in so many other places, as a pretext for the British to
invade and claim the land for themselves, since nobody "legally owned it".
However, if the local culture had not contained an implicit concept of
land ownership, this issue, which had been at the center of Zimbabwe
politics long before independence, would not be the problem that it is
today. 

A bloody war was fought between the British and the Ndebele over this
issue. The Africans lacked the technology to defeat the British. This is
the same story we saw in Australia, the Americas, and the Indian
subcontinent. The British-African wars are better documented, and the
people who were defeated were not, as was the case in  the Americas and
Australia, totally demoralized and exterminated. This is another parallel
with Baltic history: the colonists had a high enough regard for the people
being colonized not to target the entire group for extermination,
preferring instead to use them as pawns in the new order that they
established. 

The landgrab in Zimbabwe was  "legitimized" by the Land Act passed in
1930. Functionally this was analogous to the collectivization of land by
the Soviets in the Baltic countries, but its effects were further reaching
and more destructive for the local culture than Soviet collectivization
was. Land that had long been inhabited by people who had been working it
and had a sense of attachment to it was grabbed at gunpoint. The villages,
infrastructure, and culture were plowed under, and the inhabitants, who
had been self sufficent, were consigned to reservations. Further
legislation passed by colonists enabled them to legally acquire the
confiscated land and reduce the former inhabitants  from the status of
small freeholders to that of a landless, propertyless reserve of cheap
labor for the planatations and mines that the colonists established.

> > > The native Zimbabwans were not protected by international treaties
> as
> > > the Baltic nations were.
> >
> > International treaties are only worth the paper that they are printed
> on =AD
> > if the parties concerned are lucky.
> 
> Ok, I will keep your opinion in mind as I proceed through life.
> You do also, please.

The international treaty that underlies the United Nations is being
violated by the United States and its running dogs in Iraq this very
moment. The international treaty that allowed the USSR to esablish bases
on the territory of the Baltic countries to protect them against foreign
invasion was violated when the Soviet Union invaded them. Many other
examples spring to mind.

> > > The native Zimbabwans were not victimized by any nation with the
> > > world's largest army, but rather by a small clique of adventurers.
> >
> > They were victimized by the world's most aggressive and rapacious
> colonial
> > power, Great Britain.
> 
> Britain did not officially intervene in Zimbabwe. Cecil Rhodes (and his
> financial backers) did.

Cecil Rhodes and his band of colonists backed their claims and the
policies that they initiated in souther Africa with a mandate from Queen
Victoria.

> 
> (It is also thanks to Rhodes and all of the derivative councilar
> 'structures' that he initiated - that many of your former US socialist
> friends have had the opportunity to become major players in current
> 'international policies'.
> 
> Aren't you pleased - or does that realization cause you any discomfort?
> Do you ever feel like you might be a sucker being played as one of the
> fools?)
> 
> The bottom line is that Baltic citizens have achieved societal
> tolerance and increasing affluence by peacably rejecting foreign based
> colonialism - while the citizens of Zimbabwe are now sufferring
> societal chaos, violence, and starvation at the hands of a native
> socialist.

Despite the tragedies that they went through as a consequence of
colonialism, their societies were not as disrupted as those of colonial
Africa.

> Mugabe is Zimbabwe's sere punishment.
> Your defence of his imposed institutionalized insanity is hugely,
> enormously, monstrously ironic.  And you say you are not a racist, eh?

Zimbabwe had to agree to a twenty-year transition period before its
independence was finalized. During those twenty years some of the
colonialists have taken Zimbabwean citizenship and are thus not the object
of natvization policies. Despite the corruption and evident excesses which
have characterized the situation in Zibabwe, no country can continue to
tolerate a situation in which two thirds of the arable land is in the
hands of 0.5 of the ppulation, these people being absentee landowners and
non-citizens.
 
> The elephants are the truley innocent victims. If you can't empathize
> for the fate of native Zimbabwans, then at least, perhaps you can
> empathize for the native animals??? I do.

Elephants have to be culled, too. And I am assured by a gourmand
acquaintance that the elephant-ear sandwich is a uniquely succulent
delicacy, provided that you can find an appropriate sized bun.

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:18 EST 2005
Article: 1041366 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 12:29:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Nazi Document you say could it be it was a German document. By the way if
> you are a republican your writing here would be a republican document but if
> you are Jewish it would be a Jewish document.

Reinhard Heydrich was one of the top Nazi leaders. The document in
question concerns his explanation and justification of policies to be
implemented by the Nazi government. Thus, it is generally a German
document, because it is written in German by a German author representing
a German government about a German situation. More specifically it is a
Nazi German one due to its author, function, content, and the date that it
was written.



Mit fruendlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:18 EST 2005
Article: 1041423 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:36:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1114799095.553169.5820@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
> > On 4/27/2005 11:26 AM, EmilMll1929@yahoo.com wrote:

I would like to share this discourse between Morghus., Gord McFee, and
myself with members of alt.revisionism who read postings to the group only
selectively. Morghus's pathetic attempts to translate from German
symbolize the futility of the entire denier enterprise.


> >
> > I am also a linguist, and perhaps this will help.
> 
> 
> Sure your are a linguist; one of those holocaust linguist who strives
> to give a homicidal flavor to every German language document no matter
> what the document says.  Let's all look at your latest linguistic
> exercise in translating a message by Reinhard Heydrich:
> 
> > 
> >
> > Zur Beseitigung aller Mi=DFverst=E4ndnisse teile ich folgendes mit:
> >
> > ...ist zu unterscheiden zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher
> =FCblichen
> > Wege erledigt werden k=F6nnen, und solchen, welche einer
> Sonderbehandlung
> > zugef=FChrt werden m=FCssen.  Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um
> solche
> > Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer
> > Gef=E4hrlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet
> sind,
> > ohne Ansehung der Person durch r=FCcksichtloses Vorgehen (n=E4mlich
> durch
> > Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden.
> >
> > 
> >
> > [translation]
> >
> > To clear up all misunderstandings, I inform you of the following:
> >
> > ... a differentiation is to be made between those who can be finished
> > off in the hitherto usual way, and those to whom a special treatment
> > applies.  In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
> > because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
> > consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
> > eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).
> >
> > [/translation]
> >
> 
> That's quite a translation. The holohuckster is so anxious to give
> German words some sinister meaning he winds with Heydrich
> distinguishing between killing in the normal way and killing in a
> special way. Summarized, the claim is that Heydrich wrote that a
> distinction was to be made between those who could be "finished off" in
> the normal way, and those who would be killed by "ruthless execution."
> Obviously something's wrong with that standard holohuckster type of
> translation.
> 
> In fact, Heydrich's message says nothing about killing anyone.  The
> word "ruthless" is no where to be found in the message.
> "R=FCcksichtlos" doesn't mean "ruthless," it means "irrespective" or
> "regardless." 



"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."



In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propagandistic impact, are suitable
to be eliminated using a [rücksichtlos-es] procedure (specifically by
execution) with no regard to the person.


This procedure is "reckless", "inconsiderate", "irrespective",
"unthoughtful", or "roughshod", according to the translations offered by
the dictionary. None of them fit as such. The word "ruthless" might be too
strong, but "merciless", "uncharitable", "rash", or "cruel" all capture
nuances of the word.

> But it sounds awfully sinister when mistranslated to
> "ruthless," doesn't it? In the same way, "erledigt" doesn't mean
> "finished off" in the sense of killing; it means "managed" or "dealt
> with." 

The verb "erledigen", of which "erledigt" is the past participle, normally
means "to finish off" in the sense of "to kill" if the direct object is
[+animate]:

Source: http://www.ciao.de/Counter_Strike_Half_Life_Mod_PC__Test_2183617


Wenn man nur eine kleine Pistole hat, wird man von einem Scharfschützen
schnell erledigt. 
[If a person has only a small pistol he is quickly finished off [erledigt]
by a sharpshooter.]

Dann hat er sich mit seiner Sniper positioniert. Ein sogenannter “Camper³
also, der sich irgendwo versteckt und nicht rauskommt. Also, ich schlich
mich an und Zack!!! Eine Salve aus meiner Heckler & Koch hat ihn erledigt.
[Then he positioned himself with his Sniper. It was a so-called "Camper",
you see, who hides himself somewhere and doesn't emerge. Thus, I crept up
and Bam!!! A salvo from my Heckler & Koch finished him off [hat ihn
erledight].]



> "Ausgemerzt" does not mean "kill"; it means "weed out." 



It means "to eradicate", "obliterate", or "cull" when the direct object is
[+animate].

> And
> "exekution" doesn' mean kill; it means to "seize" or "impound," or
> both.

You keep repeating this nonsense. 'Exekution' and 'exekutieren' in
German have several meanings, just as the corresponding words 'execution'
and 'to execute' do in English. Nevertheless, the context makes it clear
which sense is meant. Consider the following:

Source: http://www.minghui.de/articles/200504/21047p.html

Als Liu Shaoqi sich dem Vorsitzenden entgegenstellte, wäre selbst sein Tod
nicht genug gewesen, um für seine Verbrechen zu büßen. Als Zhang Zhixin es
versuchte und wagte, ihr Urteil über Liu Shaoqi zu annullieren, wurde sie
eingesperrt und von den Gefängniswärtern vergewaltigt. Ihre Kehle wurde
aufgeschnitten und sie wurde exekutiert.  

[When Lie Shaoqi opposed the chairperson, even his death would have not
sufficed to atone for his crimes. When Zhang Zhixin tried and dared to
annul her sentence  for Liu Shaoqi, she was incarcerated and raped by the
prison guards. Her throat was cut open and she was executed.]

> The hucksters also like to play with the difficult German word order.
> By transposing into English without bothering to set the words in
> proper order, they can often change the meaning of German writings even
> though the words are translated literally.  In this case, Heydrich was
> saying that "special treatment" should not be afforded to undesirables.
> Here's what Heydrich actually said:
> 
> "to distinguish between those who can be managed in the up-to-now usual
> way and those who must be afforded special treatment.  In the latter
> case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
> dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
> regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
> by seizing and impounding them."

Let's walk through your translation. Here is the source text again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

1. You completely mistranslate the first two clauses. They say:

Im letzteren Falle [handelt es sich um](1) solche Sachverhalte, [die](2a)
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung [geeignet sind](2b),...



You have:

" In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,

"handelt es sich um" means "it concerns" or "it pertains to". It is the
circumstances (Sachverhalte), not the concerns ­ a noun with that meaning
does not even show up in the German text ­ that are suitable (geeignet) as
a consequence of their "their despicableness, their danger, or their
propagandistic impact". the antecedent of the relative pronoun "die" is
"solche Sachverhalte" - 'such circumstances', but your translation has no
relative clause, no equivalent of the determiner "solch", and, most
damningly, makes "suitable" the modifier of a noun "concerns", a word
for which there is no equivalent in the source text.

2. Your "regardless of their reputation standing" mean nothing in English.
The German "ohne Ansehung der Person " simply means "without regard to the
person" or "whoever the person may be".

3. The German "durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen" is a prepositional phrase
consisting of the preposition "durch", meaning "through/by means of" and a
premodified noun "rücksichtloses Vorgehen", meaning
"merciless/rash/coarse/cruel procedure". Your "regardless of their
reputation standing, to proceed" is totally off the mark. The cruel
procedure is explained using the appositive equivalent construction
(nämlich durch Exekution) in parentheses. This means (that is to
say/specifically by execution). This is a military document and written by
a German (Heydrich was born in Halle) during the first half of the 20th
century, the intended direct object of the executions would be the people
being discussed, so to translate it as "seizing and impounding them" is
far fetched, since "Exekution" would only have this meaning in archaic
Austrian bureaucratic usage.

4. Finally, "ausmerzen" has a far stronger meaning when applied to a
[+animate] direct object than "weed out". The German ..."durch Exekution
ausgemerzt zu werden" means "...to be
obliterated/culled/eliminated/eradicated by
means of execution".

Summing up, here is the source text once again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

Your [mis]translation:

"In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them."

This reduces to "...Circumstances...are suitable concerns, regardless of
their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by seizing and
impounding them." and means absolutely nothing, as I am sure you will agree.

A correct, close translation:

"In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, are suitable to
be eliminated using a cruel procedure (specifically by execution) no
matter who the person might be."

This reduces to:
 
"...[it pertains to](1) [such circumstances](2) [that...are suitable](3)
{reasons enumerated} [to be eliminated](4) [using a cruel procedure,
execution](5), [no matter who the person might be](6)." 

and reproduces the semantic and logical content of the German text: 

"...[es handelt such um](1) [solche Sachverhalte](2), [die...{reasons
enumerated}...geeignet sind](3) [ohne Ansehung der Person](6) [durch
rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution)](5) [ausgemerzt zu
werden](4)."



Compare Gord's translation, which is also accurate and relatively close:


In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).


If I were translating this text for a client, I would revise my first 
translation to be: 

"In the latter case it is a question of circumstances that justify the
elimination by a cruel procedure, execution, of the individuals concerned,
no matter who they might be, because of their despicableness, the danger
they constitute, or their propaganda impact, "

Anyone who knows German will agree that your attempt to produce a
translation indicates that you have a woefully deficient knowledge of German
grammar, semantics, stylistics, and pragmatics. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:19 EST 2005
Article: 1041426 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
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In article <1114799095.553169.5820@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
> > On 4/27/2005 11:26 AM, EmilMll1929@yahoo.com wrote:

I would like to share this discourse between Morghus, Gord McFee, and
myself with members of alt.revisionism who read postings to the group only
selectively. Morghus's pathetic attempts to translate from German
symbolize the futility of the entire denier enterprise.


> >
> > I am also a linguist, and perhaps this will help.
> 
> 
> Sure your are a linguist; one of those holocaust linguist who strives
> to give a homicidal flavor to every German language document no matter
> what the document says.  Let's all look at your latest linguistic
> exercise in translating a message by Reinhard Heydrich:
> 
> > 
> >
> > Zur Beseitigung aller Mi=DFverst=E4ndnisse teile ich folgendes mit:
> >
> > ...ist zu unterscheiden zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher
> =FCblichen
> > Wege erledigt werden k=F6nnen, und solchen, welche einer
> Sonderbehandlung
> > zugef=FChrt werden m=FCssen.  Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um
> solche
> > Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer
> > Gef=E4hrlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet
> sind,
> > ohne Ansehung der Person durch r=FCcksichtloses Vorgehen (n=E4mlich
> durch
> > Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden.
> >
> > 
> >
> > [translation]
> >
> > To clear up all misunderstandings, I inform you of the following:
> >
> > ... a differentiation is to be made between those who can be finished
> > off in the hitherto usual way, and those to whom a special treatment
> > applies.  In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
> > because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
> > consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
> > eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).
> >
> > [/translation]
> >
> 
> That's quite a translation. The holohuckster is so anxious to give
> German words some sinister meaning he winds with Heydrich
> distinguishing between killing in the normal way and killing in a
> special way. Summarized, the claim is that Heydrich wrote that a
> distinction was to be made between those who could be "finished off" in
> the normal way, and those who would be killed by "ruthless execution."
> Obviously something's wrong with that standard holohuckster type of
> translation.
> 
> In fact, Heydrich's message says nothing about killing anyone.  The
> word "ruthless" is no where to be found in the message.
> "R=FCcksichtlos" doesn't mean "ruthless," it means "irrespective" or
> "regardless." 



"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."



In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propagandistic impact, are suitable
to be eliminated using a [rücksichtlos-es] procedure (specifically by
execution) with no regard to the person.


This procedure is "reckless", "inconsiderate", "irrespective",
"unthoughtful", or "roughshod", according to the translations offered by
the dictionary. None of them fit as such. The word "ruthless" might be too
strong, but "merciless", "uncharitable", "rash", or "cruel" all capture
nuances of the word.

> But it sounds awfully sinister when mistranslated to
> "ruthless," doesn't it? In the same way, "erledigt" doesn't mean
> "finished off" in the sense of killing; it means "managed" or "dealt
> with." 

The verb "erledigen", of which "erledigt" is the past participle, normally
means "to finish off" in the sense of "to kill" if the direct object is
[+animate]:

Source: http://www.ciao.de/Counter_Strike_Half_Life_Mod_PC__Test_2183617


Wenn man nur eine kleine Pistole hat, wird man von einem Scharfschützen
schnell erledigt. 
[If a person has only a small pistol he is quickly finished off [erledigt]
by a sharpshooter.]

Dann hat er sich mit seiner Sniper positioniert. Ein sogenannter “Camper³
also, der sich irgendwo versteckt und nicht rauskommt. Also, ich schlich
mich an und Zack!!! Eine Salve aus meiner Heckler & Koch hat ihn erledigt.
[Then he positioned himself with his Sniper. It was a so-called "Camper",
you see, who hides himself somewhere and doesn't emerge. Thus, I crept up
and Bam!!! A salvo from my Heckler & Koch finished him off [hat ihn
erledight].]



> "Ausgemerzt" does not mean "kill"; it means "weed out." 



It means "to eradicate", "obliterate", or "cull" when the direct object is
[+animate].

> And
> "exekution" doesn' mean kill; it means to "seize" or "impound," or
> both.

You keep repeating this nonsense. 'Exekution' and 'exekutieren' in
German have several meanings, just as the corresponding words 'execution'
and 'to execute' do in English. Nevertheless, the context makes it clear
which sense is meant. Consider the following:

Source: http://www.minghui.de/articles/200504/21047p.html

Als Liu Shaoqi sich dem Vorsitzenden entgegenstellte, wäre selbst sein Tod
nicht genug gewesen, um für seine Verbrechen zu büßen. Als Zhang Zhixin es
versuchte und wagte, ihr Urteil über Liu Shaoqi zu annullieren, wurde sie
eingesperrt und von den Gefängniswärtern vergewaltigt. Ihre Kehle wurde
aufgeschnitten und sie wurde exekutiert.  

[When Lie Shaoqi opposed the chairperson, even his death would have not
sufficed to atone for his crimes. When Zhang Zhixin tried and dared to
annul her sentence  for Liu Shaoqi, she was incarcerated and raped by the
prison guards. Her throat was cut open and she was executed.]

> The hucksters also like to play with the difficult German word order.
> By transposing into English without bothering to set the words in
> proper order, they can often change the meaning of German writings even
> though the words are translated literally.  In this case, Heydrich was
> saying that "special treatment" should not be afforded to undesirables.
> Here's what Heydrich actually said:
> 
> "to distinguish between those who can be managed in the up-to-now usual
> way and those who must be afforded special treatment.  In the latter
> case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
> dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
> regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
> by seizing and impounding them."

Let's walk through your translation. Here is the source text again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

1. You completely mistranslate the first two clauses. They say:

Im letzteren Falle [handelt es sich um](1) solche Sachverhalte, [die](2a)
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung [geeignet sind](2b),...



You have:

" In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,

"handelt es sich um" means "it concerns" or "it pertains to". It is the
circumstances (Sachverhalte), not the concerns ­ a noun with that meaning
does not even show up in the German text ­ that are suitable (geeignet) as
a consequence of their "their despicableness, their danger, or their
propagandistic impact". the antecedent of the relative pronoun "die" is
"solche Sachverhalte" - 'such circumstances', but your translation has no
relative clause, no equivalent of the determiner "solch", and, most
damningly, makes "suitable" the modifier of a noun "concerns", a word
for which there is no equivalent in the source text.

2. Your "regardless of their reputation standing" mean nothing in English.
The German "ohne Ansehung der Person " simply means "without regard to the
person" or "whoever the person may be".

3. The German "durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen" is a prepositional phrase
consisting of the preposition "durch", meaning "through/by means of" and a
premodified noun "rücksichtloses Vorgehen", meaning
"merciless/rash/coarse/cruel procedure". Your "regardless of their
reputation standing, to proceed" is totally off the mark. The cruel
procedure is explained using the appositive equivalent construction
(nämlich durch Exekution) in parentheses. This means (that is to
say/specifically by execution). This is a military document and written by
a German (Heydrich was born in Halle) during the first half of the 20th
century, the intended direct object of the executions would be the people
being discussed, so to translate it as "seizing and impounding them" is
far fetched, since "Exekution" would only have this meaning in archaic
Austrian bureaucratic usage.

4. Finally, "ausmerzen" has a far stronger meaning when applied to a
[+animate] direct object than "weed out". The German ..."durch Exekution
ausgemerzt zu werden" means "...to be
obliterated/culled/eliminated/eradicated by
means of execution".

Summing up, here is the source text once again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

Your [mis]translation:

"In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them."

This reduces to "...Circumstances...are suitable concerns, regardless of
their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by seizing and
impounding them." and means absolutely nothing, as I am sure you will agree.

A correct, close translation:

"In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, are suitable to
be eliminated using a cruel procedure (specifically by execution) no
matter who the person might be."

This reduces to:
 
"...[it pertains to](1) [such circumstances](2) [that...are suitable](3)
{reasons enumerated} [to be eliminated](4) [using a cruel procedure,
execution](5), [no matter who the person might be](6)." 

and reproduces the semantic and logical content of the German text: 

"...[es handelt such um](1) [solche Sachverhalte](2), [die...{reasons
enumerated}...geeignet sind](3) [ohne Ansehung der Person](6) [durch
rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution)](5) [ausgemerzt zu
werden](4)."



Compare Gord's translation, which is also accurate and relatively close:


In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).


If I were translating this text for a client, I would revise my first 
translation to be: 

"In the latter case it is a question of circumstances that justify the
elimination by a cruel procedure, execution, of the individuals concerned,
no matter who they might be, because of their despicableness, the danger
they constitute, or their propaganda impact, "

Anyone who knows German will agree that your attempt to produce a
translation indicates that you have a woefully deficient knowledge of German
grammar, semantics, stylistics, and pragmatics. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:19 EST 2005
Article: 1041440 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 23:40:56 +0300
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In article <1114799095.553169.5820@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
> > On 4/27/2005 11:26 AM, EmilMll1929@yahoo.com wrote:

I would like to share this discourse between Morghus, Gord McFee, and
myself with the members of alt.revisionism who read postings to the group only
selectively. I am also crossposting this to soc.culture.german in the hope
that we might get some *unbiased* input about Morghus's translations. In
my opinion  Morghus's pathetic attempts to translate from German symbolize
the futility of the entire denier enterprise. I would appreciate hearing
whether others agree with me.


> >
> > I am also a linguist, and perhaps this will help.
> 
> 
> Sure your are a linguist; one of those holocaust linguist who strives
> to give a homicidal flavor to every German language document no matter
> what the document says.  Let's all look at your latest linguistic
> exercise in translating a message by Reinhard Heydrich:
> 
> > 
> >
> > Zur Beseitigung aller Mi=DFverst=E4ndnisse teile ich folgendes mit:
> >
> > ...ist zu unterscheiden zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher
> =FCblichen
> > Wege erledigt werden k=F6nnen, und solchen, welche einer
> Sonderbehandlung
> > zugef=FChrt werden m=FCssen.  Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um
> solche
> > Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer
> > Gef=E4hrlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet
> sind,
> > ohne Ansehung der Person durch r=FCcksichtloses Vorgehen (n=E4mlich
> durch
> > Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden.
> >
> > 
> >
> > [translation]
> >
> > To clear up all misunderstandings, I inform you of the following:
> >
> > ... a differentiation is to be made between those who can be finished
> > off in the hitherto usual way, and those to whom a special treatment
> > applies.  In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
> > because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
> > consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
> > eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).
> >
> > [/translation]
> >
> 
> That's quite a translation. The holohuckster is so anxious to give
> German words some sinister meaning he winds with Heydrich
> distinguishing between killing in the normal way and killing in a
> special way. Summarized, the claim is that Heydrich wrote that a
> distinction was to be made between those who could be "finished off" in
> the normal way, and those who would be killed by "ruthless execution."
> Obviously something's wrong with that standard holohuckster type of
> translation.
> 
> In fact, Heydrich's message says nothing about killing anyone.  The
> word "ruthless" is no where to be found in the message.
> "R=FCcksichtlos" doesn't mean "ruthless," it means "irrespective" or
> "regardless." 



"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."



In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propagandistic impact, are suitable
to be eliminated using a [rücksichtlos-es] procedure (specifically by
execution) with no regard to the person.


This procedure is "reckless", "inconsiderate", "irrespective",
"unthoughtful", or "roughshod", according to the translations offered by
the dictionary. None of them fit as such. The word "ruthless" might be too
strong, but "merciless", "uncharitable", "rash", or "cruel" all capture
nuances of the word.

> But it sounds awfully sinister when mistranslated to
> "ruthless," doesn't it? In the same way, "erledigt" doesn't mean
> "finished off" in the sense of killing; it means "managed" or "dealt
> with." 

The verb "erledigen", of which "erledigt" is the past participle, normally
means "to finish off" in the sense of "to kill" if the direct object is
[+animate]:

Source: http://www.ciao.de/Counter_Strike_Half_Life_Mod_PC__Test_2183617


Wenn man nur eine kleine Pistole hat, wird man von einem Scharfschützen
schnell erledigt. 
[If a person has only a small pistol he is quickly finished off [erledigt]
by a sharpshooter.]

Dann hat er sich mit seiner Sniper positioniert. Ein sogenannter “Camper³
also, der sich irgendwo versteckt und nicht rauskommt. Also, ich schlich
mich an und Zack!!! Eine Salve aus meiner Heckler & Koch hat ihn erledigt.
[Then he positioned himself with his Sniper. It was a so-called "Camper",
you see, who hides himself somewhere and doesn't emerge. Thus, I crept up
and Bam!!! A salvo from my Heckler & Koch finished him off [hat ihn
erledight].]



> "Ausgemerzt" does not mean "kill"; it means "weed out." 



It means "to eradicate", "obliterate", or "cull" when the direct object is
[+animate].

> And
> "exekution" doesn' mean kill; it means to "seize" or "impound," or
> both.

You keep repeating this nonsense. 'Exekution' and 'exekutieren' in
German have several meanings, just as the corresponding words 'execution'
and 'to execute' do in English. Nevertheless, the context makes it clear
which sense is meant. Consider the following:

Source: http://www.minghui.de/articles/200504/21047p.html

Als Liu Shaoqi sich dem Vorsitzenden entgegenstellte, wäre selbst sein Tod
nicht genug gewesen, um für seine Verbrechen zu büßen. Als Zhang Zhixin es
versuchte und wagte, ihr Urteil über Liu Shaoqi zu annullieren, wurde sie
eingesperrt und von den Gefängniswärtern vergewaltigt. Ihre Kehle wurde
aufgeschnitten und sie wurde exekutiert.  

[When Lie Shaoqi opposed the chairperson, even his death would have not
sufficed to atone for his crimes. When Zhang Zhixin tried and dared to
annul her sentence  for Liu Shaoqi, she was incarcerated and raped by the
prison guards. Her throat was cut open and she was executed.]

> The hucksters also like to play with the difficult German word order.
> By transposing into English without bothering to set the words in
> proper order, they can often change the meaning of German writings even
> though the words are translated literally.  In this case, Heydrich was
> saying that "special treatment" should not be afforded to undesirables.
> Here's what Heydrich actually said:
> 
> "to distinguish between those who can be managed in the up-to-now usual
> way and those who must be afforded special treatment.  In the latter
> case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
> dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
> regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
> by seizing and impounding them."

Let's walk through your translation. Here is the source text again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

1. You completely mistranslate the first two clauses. They say:

Im letzteren Falle [handelt es sich um](1) solche Sachverhalte, [die](2a)
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung [geeignet sind](2b),...



You have:

" In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,

"handelt es sich um" means "it concerns" or "it pertains to". It is the
circumstances (Sachverhalte), not the concerns ­ a noun with that meaning
does not even show up in the German text ­ that are suitable (geeignet) as
a consequence of their "their despicableness, their danger, or their
propagandistic impact". The antecedent of the relative pronoun "die" is
"solche Sachverhalte" - 'such circumstances', but your translation has no
relative clause, no equivalent of the determiner "solch", and, most
damningly, makes "suitable" the modifier of a noun "concerns", a word
for which there is no equivalent in the source text.

2. Your "regardless of their reputation standing" mean nothing in English.
The German "ohne Ansehung der Person " simply means "without regard to the
person" or "whoever the person may be".

3. The German "durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen" is a prepositional phrase
consisting of the preposition "durch", meaning "through/by means of" and a
premodified noun "rücksichtloses Vorgehen", meaning
"merciless/rash/coarse/cruel procedure". Your "regardless of their
reputation standing, to proceed" is totally off the mark. The cruel
procedure is explained using the appositive equivalent construction
(nämlich durch Exekution) in parentheses. This means (that is to
say/specifically by execution). This is a military document and written by
a German (Heydrich was born in Halle) during the first half of the 20th
century, the intended direct object of the executions would be the people
being discussed, so to translate it as "seizing and impounding them" is
far fetched, since "Exekution" would only have this meaning in archaic
Austrian bureaucratic usage.

4. Finally, "ausmerzen" has a far stronger meaning when applied to a
[+animate] direct object than "weed out". The German ..."durch Exekution
ausgemerzt zu werden" means "...to be
obliterated/culled/eliminated/eradicated by
means of execution".

Summing up, here is the source text once again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

Your [mis]translation:

"In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them."

This reduces to "...Circumstances...are suitable concerns, regardless of
their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by seizing and
impounding them." and means absolutely nothing, as I am sure you will agree.

A correct, close translation:

"In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, are suitable to
be eliminated using a cruel procedure (specifically by execution) no
matter who the person might be."

This reduces to:
 
"...[it pertains to](1) [such circumstances](2) [that...are suitable](3)
{reasons enumerated} [to be eliminated](4) [using a cruel procedure,
execution](5), [no matter who the person might be](6)." 

and reproduces the semantic and logical content of the German text: 

"...[es handelt such um](1) [solche Sachverhalte](2), [die...{reasons
enumerated}...geeignet sind](3) [ohne Ansehung der Person](6) [durch
rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution)](5) [ausgemerzt zu
werden](4)."



Compare Gord's translation, which is also accurate and relatively close:


In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).


If I were translating this text for a client, I would revise my first 
translation to be: 

"In the latter case it is a question of circumstances that justify the
elimination by a cruel procedure, execution, of the individuals concerned,
no matter who they might be, because of their despicableness, the danger
they constitute, or their propaganda impact, "

Anyone who knows German will agree that your attempt to produce a
translation indicates that you have a woefully deficient knowledge of German
grammar, semantics, stylistics, and pragmatics. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:20 EST 2005
Article: 1041474 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 06:25:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1115001974.336834.213640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:


> 
> Since you apparently feel you can simply ignore the true meaning of a
> German word, I guess you can prefer any word you choose, just like all
> the holocaust translators always do.  

Translation is about the global meaning of entire texts, not the
dictionary meaning of individual words.

> Mr. Holman even gave a list of
> the words used in the dictionary, yet chose to ignore all of them. 

That's because none of them would have made sense in English in that
specific context. The important thing is that the words in the list as
possible translations for *rücksichtslos* were negative in semantics,
something that you missed.

> The
> word means "regardless," or "irrespective," and that's all it means.

No. In the context "durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch
Exekution)" it does not and cannot mean "regardless," or "irrespective"
since it is an adjective modifying ­ that's what the -es indicates ­ the
noun "Vorgehen": *"by regardless/irrespective procedure (specifically by
execution)" is nonsense in English.

> "Reckless" means thoughtless, or without regard, so the word does not
> even suggest "ruthless."  

If you do something without regard for civility or generally accepted
norms of behavior you are being ruthless/cruel/merciless/harsh.

> As I said, "ruthless" cannot be found in the
> writing.  It was a bogus translation typical of the holocaust crowd.

It's not a bogus translation at all. In the context in question it could
be translated as "cruel", "ruthless", "harsh", or "merciless". If you want
to use "regardless" or "irrespective" you have to add information telling
the reader what it is regardless or irrespective of: "by a procedure
disregarding all civility (specifically execution)"
 
> The result of all this is that you, Holman, and McFee are now insisting
> that the document actually says that a distinction must be made between
> those who are killed the normal way and those who are killed in a
> special way.  That translation is absurd on its face.  Only a true
> holocaust believer could be stupid enough to accept that silly
> interpretation.

Any translation cis an interpretation, since languages are different. Your
translation, however, is gibberish, not English:

Here is the source text once again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

Here is your [mis]translation:

"In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them."

> > Morghus' translation is of course hilarious, especially the execution
> > part.
> 
> What's really hilarious is that I can point to German language
> authorities to support my definition of "exekutieren."  

No you can't. All of the comprehensive dictionaries of German note that
the meaning of "exekutieren" that you give is limited to Austrian
bureaucratic usage. I discussed the word with an Austrian colleague (born
1948) and he said that this usage is completely unknown to him and his
generation. He is not just anybody; he is a teacher of German langauge and
literature.

> What's more, I
> can point to German documents that use the term in ways that it could
> not possibly have meant killing.  

So can I. But they do not use the word "exekutieren" in the same clause as
"ausgemerzt zu werden".

> The best you holocaust hustlers can
> do is pointedly ignore the definitions given in dictionaries and invent
> "code words" to support your tricky translations of German documents.

In this context I was writing not as a "Holocaust hustler", but as a
professional translator. I used clear examples to demonstrate that your
translation is incompetent in many ways. It reveals that you have little
understanding of German grammar, semantics, or stylistics. It makes little
sense to discuss the meaning of specific words if your translation reveals
a total lack of understand of how German sentences are constructed. 
Translating:

"ohne Ansehung der Person durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch
Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden." 

[without regard of-the person by merciless procedure (specifically by
execution) eliminated to be]

as 

"regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by
seizing and impounding them."

reveals total incompetence in German.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:21 EST 2005
Article: 1041475 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 06:28:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1115001974.336834.213640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:


> 
> Since you apparently feel you can simply ignore the true meaning of a
> German word, I guess you can prefer any word you choose, just like all
> the holocaust translators always do.  

Translation is about the global meaning of entire texts, not the
dictionary meaning of individual words.

> Mr. Holman even gave a list of
> the words used in the dictionary, yet chose to ignore all of them. 

That's because none of them would have made sense in English in that
specific context. The important thing is that the words in the list as
possible translations for *rücksichtlos* were negative in semantics,
something that you missed.

> The
> word means "regardless," or "irrespective," and that's all it means.

No. In the context "durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch
Exekution)" it does not and cannot mean "regardless," or "irrespective"
since it is an adjective modifying ­ that's what the -es indicates ­ the
noun "Vorgehen": *"by regardless/irrespective procedure (specifically by
execution)" is nonsense in English.

> "Reckless" means thoughtless, or without regard, so the word does not
> even suggest "ruthless."  

If you do something without regard for civility or generally accepted
norms of behavior you are being ruthless/cruel/merciless/harsh.

> As I said, "ruthless" cannot be found in the
> writing.  It was a bogus translation typical of the holocaust crowd.

It's not a bogus translation at all. In the context in question it could
be translated as "cruel", "ruthless", "harsh", or "merciless". If you want
to use "regardless" or "irrespective" you have to add information telling
the reader what it is regardless or irrespective of: "by a procedure
disregarding all civility (specifically execution)"
 
> The result of all this is that you, Holman, and McFee are now insisting
> that the document actually says that a distinction must be made between
> those who are killed the normal way and those who are killed in a
> special way.  That translation is absurd on its face.  Only a true
> holocaust believer could be stupid enough to accept that silly
> interpretation.

Any translation is an interpretation, since languages are different. Your
translation, however, is gibberish, not English:

Here is the source text once again:

"Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden."

Here is your [mis]translation:

"In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them."

> > Morghus' translation is of course hilarious, especially the execution
> > part.
> 
> What's really hilarious is that I can point to German language
> authorities to support my definition of "exekutieren."  

No you can't. All of the comprehensive dictionaries of German note that
the meaning of "exekutieren" that you give is limited to Austrian
bureaucratic usage. I discussed the word with an Austrian colleague (born
1948) and he said that this usage is completely unknown to him and his
generation. He is not just anybody; he is a teacher of German langauge and
literature.

> What's more, I
> can point to German documents that use the term in ways that it could
> not possibly have meant killing.  

So can I. But they do not use the word "exekutieren" in the same clause as
"ausgemerzt zu werden".

> The best you holocaust hustlers can
> do is pointedly ignore the definitions given in dictionaries and invent
> "code words" to support your tricky translations of German documents.

In this context I was writing not as a "Holocaust hustler", but as a
professional translator. I used clear examples to demonstrate that your
translation is incompetent in many ways. It reveals that you have little
understanding of German grammar, semantics, or stylistics. It makes little
sense to discuss the meaning of specific words if your translation reveals
a total lack of understand of how German sentences are constructed. 
Translating:

"ohne Ansehung der Person durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch
Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden." 

[without regard of-the person by merciless procedure (specifically by
execution) eliminated to be]

as 

"regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by
seizing and impounding them."

reveals total incompetence in German.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:21 EST 2005
Article: 1041503 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 09:39:06 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117ava23k88cm08@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0105052340560001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> [...]
> Excuse me for butting in here.
> Suppose a German soldier was mutilated by partisans before he was killed by
> them (cutting off his genitals, his ears and puncturing out his eyes, then
> killing him). And then this partisan is caught by the SD.
> 
> In such a case the instructions are:
> "Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich
> ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen
> Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person durch rücksichtloses
> Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
> werden."
> 
> I would use Gord's translation as being the closest, except for the word
> "rücksichtslos":
> "In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that because of their
> degradation, their danger or their propaganda consequences, it is
> appropriate without regard to the person [no special privileges to anyone],
> to eliminate him through a procedure (namely by execution) without any
> consideration [for age, mental ability, etc].
> 
> Of course 'rücksichtslos" could mean "ruthless", but I don't think that this
> is the case here. I think that it stands here for "ohne Rücksicht" (no
> consideration).

Your translation fails to confront the problem that in the source text
"rücksichtlos" was used as an adjective modifying the noun "Vorgehen" in a
prespositional phrase introduced by "durch": "durch rücksichtloses
Vorgehen".

The function of the perpositional phrase is to explain how ­ "durch" ­ the
people in question are to be eliminated ­ "ausgemerzt". It is stated that
this will be by means of a procedure - "Vorgehen" that is qualified as
merciless/brutal/cruel/ruthless/harsh - "rücksichtlos" - and the specific
nature of the merciless procedure is made more precise by introducing a
synonym ­ Exekution. Your proposed translation fails to deal with the fact
that "rücksichtlos" is an adjective modifying the noun "Vorgehen", not, as
you have it, an adverb modifying the verb phrase "ausgemerzt zu werden".
Your proposed translation would be the equivalent of:

"... ohne Ansehung der Person durch ein Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution)
rücksichtlos ausgemerzt zu werden."
 
> Morghus is very skeptical of the use of ambiguous words like "exekutieren"
> or "ausmerzen", probably also "ausrotten", especially when it comes to
> descibing the brutality and lousy character of the Germans, the Huns.
> According to the German 'Duden", ausmerzen means 'radikal beseitigen', and
> that is not necessarily 'killing'. But in this case it does.

Einverstanden.

> The confusion about the German "exekutieren" stems probably from
> Kogon/Rückerl/Langbein et al in: "Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen duch
> Giftgas", Chapter II: Enttarnung der verschlüsselten Begriffe.
> The authors believe that "Umsiedlung" replaced in a text the word
> "Exekutierung", which was crossed out. Therefore "Umsiedlung" (deportation)
> was a code word for "Exekutierung" (execution).
> The authors did not include the text. It could mean in this context
> something like "Exekutierung" or "Ausführung" [einer Umsiedlung]" (
> execution of a deportation).

There is no questioning the fact that the German words
"Exekution/exekutieren" have several meanings, as indeed, do their English
equivalents "execution/to execute". Close examination of individual
instantiations of Nazi mass murder  suggests that a difference in
interpretation combined with overenthusiasm about the prospect of applying
his *Sardinenpackung* methodology to the mass murder of yet more Jews on
the part of SS-Obergruppeführer Jeckeln might have resulted in the
premature death of 1,000 Jews deported from the Reich to Riga, then in the
Nazi-occupied Ostland.

Some "Umsiedlungen" ended in the people involved being "exekutiert" on
arrival. This was the outcome of the ill-fated deportation that left
Berlin on the 27th of November, 1941 and arrived at the Rumbula station
early in the morning of November 30. They were roused from their train
cars by Jeckeln's men at 6 AM, led to the pits that had been dug for the
Jews of the Riga ghetto, and shot. Himmler tried to intervene, but by the
time he had contacted Heydrich at 1.30 PM to specify that the Jews in
question were not to be liquidated, they were already dead
("Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung." DKHH 278.). Independent
evidence of this is provided by testimony of the Rumbula stationmaster,
Alberts Baranovskis, on November 18, 1944 published in H. Krausnick and
H-H. Wilhelm *Die Truppe des Weltanchauungskrieges*, pg. 565. He testified
that already on the night before the killings a large column of Jews was
driven to Rumbula and assembled on the field near the killing site. The
reason was that the Riga Sicherheitsdienst was unable to find
accommodation for the Reich Jews, since the Latvian Jews in the ghetto had
not yet been killed and the concentration camps that eventually served the
Riga area had not yet been built. The records of the Arâjs Trial in
Hamburg contain testimony from Matîss Lutrin,s^ who at that time worked in
the garage of the Arâjs commando. He testifies to having remembered seeing
the clothes of the Reich Jews stored in the Arâjs commando's garage
buildng (Arâjs Trial Records, pg. 5679).

German policy at this time was evidently to execute the local Jews in
occupied territory and use the space thus vacated to house Jews deported
>from Germany proper in order to exploit their labor and execute them
labor. As we have discussed in another thread, Himmler was angry about
Jeckeln's manner of "executing" this particular deportation. He contacted
Heydrich the following day and discussed the "Exekutionen in Riga" [DKHH
280] He also expressed his ire to Jeckeln: "Die in das Gebiet Ostland
ausgesiedelten Juden sind nur nach dem von mir bezw. vom
Reichssicherheitshauptamt in meinem Auftrag gegebenen Richtlinien zu
behandeln. Eigenmächtigkeiten und Zuwiederhandlungen würde ich bestrafen."
[DKHH 284]. He ordered Jeckeln to his headquarters on December 4 to
discuss the "Judenfrage" once again [DKHH 284]. After that, the rest of
the Latvian Jews in the Riga ghetto were killed on December 8, thus making
space for the transports of Jews that began arriving in Riga on a regular
basis, the first of these leaving Cologne on December 7 and containing
1,000 Jews [Sources: A. Ezergailis 1996, *the Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 -
1944, pg. 355; Landgericht Hamburg: Indictment of Gerhard Kurt Maywald,
1977, pg. 105].

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:21 EST 2005
Article: 1041519 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:33:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117ava23k88cm08@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0105052340560001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> [...]
> Excuse me for butting in here.
> Suppose a German soldier was mutilated by partisans before he was killed by
> them (cutting off his genitals, his ears and puncturing out his eyes, then
> killing him). And then this partisan is caught by the SD.
> 
> In such a case the instructions are:
> "Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich
> ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen
> Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person durch rücksichtloses
> Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
> werden."
> 
> I would use Gord's translation as being the closest, except for the word
> "rücksichtslos":
> "In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that because of their
> degradation, their danger or their propaganda consequences, it is
> appropriate without regard to the person [no special privileges to anyone],
> to eliminate him through a procedure (namely by execution) without any
> consideration [for age, mental ability, etc].
> 
> Of course 'rücksichtslos" could mean "ruthless", but I don't think that this
> is the case here. I think that it stands here for "ohne Rücksicht" (no
> consideration).

Your translation fails to confront the problem that in the source text
"rücksichtlos" was used as an adjective modifying the noun "Vorgehen" in a
prespositional phrase introduced by "durch": "durch rücksichtloses
Vorgehen".

The function of the perpositional phrase is to explain how ­ "durch" ­ the
people in question are to be eliminated ­ "ausgemerzt". It is stated that
this will be by means of a procedure - "Vorgehen" that is qualified as
merciless/brutal/cruel/ruthless/harsh - "rücksichtlos" - and the specific
nature of the merciless procedure is made more precise by introducing a
synonym ­ Exekution. Your proposed translation fails to deal with the fact
that "rücksichtlos" is an adjective modifying the noun "Vorgehen", not, as
you have it, an adverb modifying the verb phrase "ausgemerzt zu werden".
Your proposed translation would be the equivalent of:

"... ohne Ansehung der Person durch ein Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution)
rücksichtlos ausgemerzt zu werden."
 
> Morghus is very skeptical of the use of ambiguous words like "exekutieren"
> or "ausmerzen", probably also "ausrotten", especially when it comes to
> descibing the brutality and lousy character of the Germans, the Huns.
> According to the German 'Duden", ausmerzen means 'radikal beseitigen', and
> that is not necessarily 'killing'. But in this case it does.

Einverstanden.

> The confusion about the German "exekutieren" stems probably from
> Kogon/Rückerl/Langbein et al in: "Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen duch
> Giftgas", Chapter II: Enttarnung der verschlüsselten Begriffe.
> The authors believe that "Umsiedlung" replaced in a text the word
> "Exekutierung", which was crossed out. Therefore "Umsiedlung" (deportation)
> was a code word for "Exekutierung" (execution).
> The authors did not include the text. It could mean in this context
> something like "Exekutierung" or "Ausführung" [einer Umsiedlung]" (
> execution of a deportation).

There is no questioning the fact that the German words
"Exekution/exekutieren" have several meanings, as indeed, do their English
equivalents "execution/to execute". Close examination of individual
instantiations of Nazi mass murder  suggests that a difference in
interpretation combined with overenthusiasm about the prospect of applying
his *Sardinenpackung* methodology to the mass murder of yet more Jews on
the part of SS-Obergruppeführer Jeckeln might have resulted in the
premature death of 1,000 Jews deported from the Reich to Riga, then in the
Nazi-occupied Ostland.

Some "Umsiedlungen" ended in the people involved being "exekutiert" on
arrival. This was the outcome of the ill-fated deportation that left
Berlin on the 27th of November, 1941 and arrived at the Rumbula station
early in the morning of November 30. They were roused from their train
cars by Jeckeln's men at 6 AM, led to the pits that had been dug for the
Jews of the Riga ghetto, and shot. Himmler tried to intervene, but by the
time he had contacted Heydrich at 1.30 PM to specify that the Jews in
question were not to be liquidated, they were already dead
("Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung." DKHH 278.). Independent
evidence of this is provided by testimony of the Rumbula stationmaster,
Alberts Baranovskis, on November 18, 1944 published in H. Krausnick and
H-H. Wilhelm *Die Truppe des Weltanchauungskrieges*, pg. 565. He testified
that already on the night before the killings a large column of Jews was
driven to Rumbula and assembled on the field near the killing site. The
reason was that the Riga Sicherheitsdienst was unable to find
accommodation for the Reich Jews, since the Latvian Jews in the ghetto had
not yet been killed and the concentration camps that eventually served the
Riga area had not yet been built. The records of the Arâjs Trial in
Hamburg contain testimony from Matîss Lutrin,s^ who at that time worked in
the garage of the Arâjs commando. He testifies to having remembered seeing
the clothes of the Reich Jews stored in the Arâjs commando's garage
buildng (Arâjs Trial Records, pg. 5679).

German policy at this time was evidently to execute the local Jews in
occupied territory and use the space thus vacated to house Jews deported
>from Germany proper in order to exploit their labor and execute them
later. As we have discussed in another thread, Himmler was angry about
Jeckeln's manner of "executing" this particular deportation. He contacted
Heydrich the following day and discussed the "Exekutionen in Riga" [DKHH
280] He also expressed his ire to Jeckeln: "Die in das Gebiet Ostland
ausgesiedelten Juden sind nur nach dem von mir bezw. vom
Reichssicherheitshauptamt in meinem Auftrag gegebenen Richtlinien zu
behandeln. Eigenmächtigkeiten und Zuwiederhandlungen würde ich bestrafen."
[DKHH 284]. He ordered Jeckeln to his headquarters on December 4 to
discuss the "Judenfrage" once again [DKHH 284]. After that, the rest of
the Latvian Jews in the Riga ghetto were killed on December 8, thus making
space for the transports of Jews that began arriving in Riga on a regular
basis, the first of these leaving Cologne on December 7 and containing
1,000 Jews [Sources: A. Ezergailis 1996, *the Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 -
1944, pg. 355; Landgericht Hamburg: Indictment of Gerhard Kurt Maywald,
1977, pg. 105].

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:22 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Beschreibung einer Exekution
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:39:28 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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The meaning of many words, in German, English, or any other language, is
partially dependent on the context in which they appear. In the following
extract from the testimony of interpreter Alfred Metzner about a
*Sardinenpackung* type of mass shooting in the Nazi-occupied Ukraine,
there is no question that "Exekution" means anything other than killing by
shooting.


Source: http://judenverfolgung.no-sa.de/index.htm?inhalt=



Schirowitz ist ein Vorort von Slonim und ca. 7-9 km entfernt. Bei dieser
Exekution wurden ca. 1200 bis 1400 Juden aus dem Ghetto vernichtet. Es
wurden bei dieser Aktion Gruppen von 500 Personen zu  Fuß an den
Vernichtungsort geführt und von den eingeteilten Vernichtungskommandos
vernichtet. Bei dieser Exekution war ich selbst dabei und habe selbst
mitgeschossen. Die Anlagen der Gruben waren diesmal 4 m breit, 5 m tief
und ca. 60-80 m lang. Der Exekutionsort war außerhalb der Ortschaft hinter
einem Wäldchen. Einige Tage vor der Exekution wurden Schießproben an dem
Exekutionsort durchgeführt, um festzustellen, ob die       Bevölkerung von
Schirowitz den Schall der Exekutionen hören könne. 

Diese Exekution verlief ungefähr folgendermaßen: die Wachleute gingen mit
den Juden in die Gruben. Dabei wurde das hintere Ende der Gruben
verschlossen und die Juden gezwungen, sich am Rand auszuziehen und sich
sofort ohne eine Untersuchung in die Gruben hineinzulegen. Als die erste
Schicht drinnen lag, gingen die Wachleute aus den Gruben hinaus unter
gleichzeitigem Einsetzen von beiderseitigem Feuer.  Durch diese Art der
Aufstellung wurde es ermöglicht, ein Kreuzfeuer auf  die Juden zu
eröffnen. Die erste Schicht betrug etwa 100-120 Mann in der Grube. 

Nach der ersten Exekution musste sich die zweite Schicht der Juden so auf
die toten Körper legen, dass der Kopf auf den Füßen der unteren Leichen zu
liegen kam. In einer Grube wurden ca. 5-6 Schichten aufeinandergeworfen
und betrug die Anzahl der Juden in  einer Grube ca. 400 bis 500 Personen.
Die Exekutionen wurden mit Schnellfeuergewehren,  Karabinern,
Maschinenpistolen, ganz nach Belieben durchgeführt. Vorher wurden viele zu
Tode geschlagen. Es war erstaunlich, wie die Juden in die Gruben
hineingingen, nur mit gegenseitigen Tröstungen, um sich dadurch
gegenseitig zu ermuntern und den Exekutionskommandos die Arbeit zu
erleichtern. 

Die Exekution selbst dauerte 3-4 Stunden. Ich war die ganze Zeit an der
Exekution beteiligt. Die einzigen Pausen, die ich machte, waren, wie mein
Karabiner leergeschossen war und ich neu laden musste. Es ist mir dadurch
nicht möglich zu sagen, wie viele Juden ich selbst während dieser 3-4
Stunden umgebracht habe, da während dieser Zeit ein anderer für mich
weiter schoss. Wir haben während dieser Zeit ziemlich viel Schnaps
getrunken, um unseren Arbeitseifer anzuregen. Die noch in den unteren
Schichten lebenden, bzw. nur angeschossenen Juden wurden durch die oberen
Schichten erstickt oder durch das Blut der oberen Schichten ertränkt.
Diesmal kamen keine angeschossenen Leute       lebend davon. Die Gräben
wurden anschließend durch die einheimische Bevölkerung zugeschaufelt. Nach
dieser Massenvernichtung wurde wiederum eine Besprechung bei dem
Gebietskommissar durchgeführt. Der Gebietskommissar lobte bei dieser
Gelegenheit meinen Fleiß und war mit der ganzen Aktion zufrieden. 

Eidestattliche Erklärung des Dolmetschers Alfred Metzner 

in Augsburg am 18. September 1947 





From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:22 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 01:18:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1115059287.500978.265530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1115001974.336834.213640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > "morghus"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > >
> > > Since you apparently feel you can simply ignore the true meaning of
> a
> > > German word, I guess you can prefer any word you choose, just like
> all
> > > the holocaust translators always do.
> >
> > Translation is about the global meaning of entire texts, not the
> > dictionary meaning of individual words.
> 
> 
> Well, what is the "global meaning of the entire text?"  

When you successfully translate a text you replicate its content and
function in the target language. Sometimes this requires a considerable
amount of work: the German sentence "Diese Berichte wurden lange in den
Wind geschlagen" literally means "These reports became long beaten into
the wind.", but that sentence means nothing in English. A person with a
good knowledge of German grammar understands that the passive in German is
formed with the verb "werden" "to become", and not with the German
equivalent of the verb "to be", as is the case in English. A person with a
good knowledge of German idioms and phraseology knows that the correct
translation of the phraseme "in den Wind schlagen" is "to ignore", thus
the sentence translates as "These reports were long ignored".

> Heydrich's 1939
> directive to the Einsatzgruppen instructed them to round up Jews and
> herd them into compounds in the cities having rail stations--in other
> words, to impound them, to place them in compounds.  

Correct. They were to be rounded up into such compounds, ghettos, so that
their labor could be exploited until the next stage of the "Final
Solution" could be implemented. But the Nazi bureaucracy did not use the
verbs "exekutieren" to designate this procedure, but rather "umsiedeln"
and "konzentrieren".

> Councils of Jewish
> Elders were to be set up to govern the compounds (or ghettoes, if you
> prefer).  That's the global context of the message.  Now where in
> Heydrich's message do you find any reference to murdering anyone other
> than in your deliberate mistranslation of the words in that lone
> excerpt?

I did not deliberately mistranslate the word. The text says quite plainly: 

"...ohne Ansehung der Person durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch
Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden."

1. The prepositional phrase "ohne Ansehung der Person" means: [without]
[regard] [of-the] [person]
2. The prepositinal phrase "durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen" means:
"[through/using/by means of] [brutal/cruel/ruthless] [procedure].
3. The appositional construction "nämlich durch Exekution" means
[namely/specifically/to be more precise/in other words] [through/using/by
means of] [execution].
4. The verb phrase "ausgemerzt zu werden" means:
[eliminated/culled/exterminated] [to] [be/become].

> And just look at the nonsense you concocted in your lame translation.

My translation is neither nonsensical nor lame. It replicates the content
of the original and is based on a careful analysis of its grammar and
syntax. Even if we forget about the semantic and contextual issues, your
alternative translation has no basis in the grammatical structure of the
source text. Specifically, it fails to deal with the fact that in the
construction "rücksichtloses Vorgehen" the word "rücksichtloses" is an
*adjective* giving information about the "Vorgehen".

> You are claiming Heydrich ordered that a distinction was to be made
> between people who would be killed "normally," and people who must be
> subjected to "ruthless procedure (namely killed) to be killed."  Is
> that the way you always translate German writing?

That is the way that one translates a German text that clearly makes that
distinction.

> > > Mr. Holman even gave a list of
> > > the words used in the dictionary, yet chose to ignore all of them.
> >
> > That's because none of them would have made sense in English in that
> > specific context.
> 
> 
> The words given by the dictionary don't make sense only if you start by
> assuming that the message must include something about killing.  

No. They do not make sense because a dictionary never contains all the
possible choices. Translating "rücksichtloses Vorgehen" as
"roughshod/inconsiderate procedure" would be unidiomatic English.

Let's examine some examples of this phrase in other German texts:

Source: http://www.auto.tuwien.ac.at/~rlieger/Firewalls/Firewalls.html
"Durch ihr *rücksichtloses Vorgehen* werden Vandalen stets rasch bemerkt,
doch der Schaden, den sie bis dahin angerichtet haben kann schon groß
sein."
[Because of their *inconsiderate actions* vandals are always quickly
noticed, however the damage that they have done up until then can already
be considerable.] 

Source: http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/kaiserreich/aussenpolitik/kamerun/
"Ein nicht weniger *rücksichtloses Vorgehen* von Gouverneur Karl Theodor
Heinrich Leist (1859-1895) in den eigenen Reihen führte 1893 zu einem
Aufstand in der Polizeitruppe, der nur mit Hilfe einer Kompanie deutscher
Marinesoldaten der vor Kamerun stationierten Kriegsschiffe
niedergeschlagen werden konnte."
[A no less important *brutal/ruthless procedure* in his own lines taken by
governor Karl Theodor Heinrich Leist (1859-1895) in 1893 led to an
insurrection in the police corps that could only be crushed with the aid
of a company of German marines of the battleships that were stationed off
the coast of Cameroon."]


Source: http://forum.tagesschau.de/printthread.php?t=4310
"Israel wird für sein *rücksichtloses Vorgehen* in Gaza von den USA
kritisiert - mit der Aussage "die USA tolerieren keine zivilen Verluste". 
["Israel is criticized by the USA for its *brutal/ruthless* actions in
Gaza with the statement "the USA does not tolerate civilian losses".]

Source:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/nindel2508/Klaus%20Nindel%20HomePage-Dateien/medien02.htm
"Berichte über seine Verbindung zu den Drogenhändlern einerseits, sein
*rücksichtloses Vorgehen* gegen die Opposition und über die Ermordung der
Gegner wie Hugo Spadafora wurden lange in den Wind geschlagen."
[Reports about his connections to drug dealers on the one hand, his
*ruthless/brutal measures* taken against the opposition and with respect
to the murder of oppponents such as Hugo Spadafora have long been
ignored.] 

> They
> all made perfect sense if you simply recognize that the message said
> nothing about killing people. The specific context of the message was
> how to handle important Jewish members who because of their personal
> qualities would not be entitled to special privileges
> (sonderbehandlung).

No it wasn't. Look at the structures used to mark cohesion between the two
sentences:

"Es ist zu unterscheiden zwischen *solchen*[a], die auf dem bisher
üblichen Wege erledigt werden können, und *solchen*[b], welche einer
Sonderbehandlung zugeführt werden müssen.  *Im letzteren Falle[b]...*"

[A distinction is to be made between *those*[a] who can be finished off in
the normal manner, and *those*[b] who must be accorded a special
treatment. *In the latter case[b]..."]

Two groups of people to be finished off are specified:
[a] those who are to be finished off/eliminated in the customary manner
[b] those who are to be accorded a special treatment.

The people who are to be accorded special treatment, indicated by "im
letzen Fall", are those who have committed reprehensible acts, constitiute
a danger, or whose elimination in the normal manner would have negative
propaganda consequences for German interests.

Forgetting about the semantic choices, your translation gets the reference
relations all wrong and in this respect means the opposite of what the
text says. It is not the important Jews who should be accorded special
treatment, but rather those who have committed atrocities, are dangerous,
or have a high enough profile for their being finished off (erledigt) in
the normal manner to have a possible negative propaganda impact. Other
Jews are to be finished off (erledigt) in the customary manner. The
special subset of Jews that is not to be finished off in the normal manner
is to be exterminated (augemerzt) using a brutal procedure (rücksichtloses
Vorgehen), execution (Exekution) because of their past or potential
behavior, or because finishing them off in the customry manner would be a
propaganda windfall and contrary to German interests.

This is the original source text:


Zur Beseitigung aller Mißverständnisse teile ich folgendes mit: Es ist zu
unterscheiden zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher üblichen Wege erledigt
werden können, und solchen, welche einer Sonderbehandlung zugeführt werden
müssen.  Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich
durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden.


And here is a reasonable translation:

To eliminate any misunderstandings I inform you of the following:
A distinction is to be made between those who can be finished off using
the method that has been in use up until now, and those who will have to
be accorded a  special treatment. In the latter case it is a matter of
such circumstances that justify exterminating the person concerned using a
brutal procedure, specifically execution, due to the reprehensibility, the
danger, or the propaganda impact that these circumstances represent.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:23 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 03:51:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117dbpcjoh9ag87@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:


> 
> Before you can translate anything from German to another language, you have
> to understand the German text fully. And I don't think you do. For example:
> "etwas zu erledigen" does not mean in English "to finish something off". 

But "jemanden erledigen", note the [+human] semantics of the direct
object, usually means to "finish off" some one, as in killing or at least
rendering harmless:

Source: http://www.sopos.org/aufsaetze/3d385517c40c1/1.phtml
"Sie haben ihn erledigt wie ein Stück Wild. Er war auf der Flucht. Und ein
Feind. Die ihn erschossen, wurden dafür befördert und dekoriert."
[Here "erledigt" obviously means killed; "erledigt" in sentence one is
paralleled with "erchossen" in sentence three.]


Source:
http://commandos.justgamers.de/komplettloesungen/tut_hfl_5/fahrer_of.html
"Sein Blickfeld streift kurz die Ecke, hinter der Du stehst. Sobald er
wieder weg schaut, rennst Du auf ihn zu und schiesst, sobald Du kannst.
Weil das schiefgehen kann, solltest Du vorher absichern.
 
Wenn Du ihn erledigt hast, versteckst Du Dich wieder hinter der Mauer.
Wenn andere Soldaten die Schüsse gehört haben, kommen Sie angerannt. Lock
sie mit Schüssen hinter die Mauer und erledige sie wie den Soldat B."
[This is from the instructions to a video game. It deals with an armed
reponse to an armed attack. The verb phrase "erledige sie" would translate
as "finish them off/kill them".

Source:
http://www.osalo.net/cat--Spielfilm-Spielfilm-Action/produktindex__site_6
"Full Metal Yakuza (DVD): Seine Kollegen glauben, sie hätten ihn erledigt,
doch in Wahrheit steht der tölpelhafte und nunmehr sogar tote Yakuza
Kensuke erst vor seinem größten Auftritt. Unterhaltsames Frühwerk von
Nippons Skandalgarant Takashi Miike.; Kategorie: Spielfilm, Genre:
Action/Thriller, Orig... "
[This is a description of a Japanese action film. Yakuza is believed to
have been "finished off/killed", and the next clause says that he is
indeed dead.]

Source: http://www.g-freaks.de/Gamecube/Tests/TestsXIIIHilfe.php
"Wenn ihr oben seid, geht ihr bis zum Gitter und tötet die drei Wachen
draußen mit der Pistole. Wechselt wieder auf Sniper und eliminiert den
Scharfschützen rechst oben und den auf dem Turm. Haltet euch links und
geht durch die zwei Türen. Tötet die Wache und geht weiter durch die
nächsten Türen. Bückt euch und geht durch den Schacht. Achtung, von rechst
schießt einer der Gefangenen auf euch. Habt ihr ihn erledigt, wendet ihr
euch nach links und springt hinunter ins Wasser, geht den einzigen Weg und
über die Leiter nach oben. Level beendet. "
[This from another instruction manual for a video game. The verb
"erledigen" indicates the response to being shot at. The introductory
subordinate clause "Habt ihr ihn erledigt,..." translates as "If you have
finished him off/killed him,..."

In the four examples above verb "erledigen" has a [+human] direct object
and means either "kill" or the slightly more vague "finish off". One could
also translate it as "take care of", but then the context would have to
make it clear that this "taking care of" is not a matter of nursing or
hosting, but rather of solving or eliminating a person or persons that
have been a problem.

Source:
http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=&noframes=1&query=erledigen&service=&optword=1&optcase=1&opterrors=0&optpro=0&dlink=self


Deutsch 
English 

17 Ergebnisse für erledigen 
17 results for erledigen 

erledigen ;fertigwerden mit to deal {dealt; dealt }with 

beenden ;erledigen ;fertigstellen ;zu Ende führen ;vollenden to finish (off) 

   beendend ;erledigen d;fertigstellend ;zu Ende führend ;vollendend 
   finishing 

   beendet ;erledigt ;fertiggestellt ;zu Ende geführt ;vollendet 
   finished 

   beendet 
   finishes 

   beendet ;vollendet 
   finishes 

besorgen ;erledigen 
to see {saw; seen }to ;to deal {dealt; dealt }with ;to manage 

   besorgend ;erledigen d
   seeing to ;dealing with ;managing 

   besorgt ;erledigt 
   seen to ;dealt with ;managed 

sorgen für ;sich kümmern um ;Acht geben auf ;erledigen 
to take care of 

   sorgend ;sich kümmernd ;Acht gebend ;erledigen d
   taking care of 

   gesorgt ;sich gekümmert ;Acht gegeben ;erledigt 
   taken care of 

teilnehmen ;erledigen ;bedienen 
to attend 

   teilnehmend ;erledigen d;bedienend 
   attending 

   teilgenommen ;erledigt ;bedient 
   attended 

außer Haus erledigen lassen (von ); vergeben (an )
to contract out (to) 

beendigen ;erledigen 
to finish 

(prompt )erledigen ;erfüllen ;abschließen 
to dispatch 

(Feind )erledigen 
to smother [Am.] 

schnell erledigen 
to hustle 

etw .endgültig erledigen 
to put the lid on sth . [Br.] 

sich um etw .kümmern ;etw .erledigen 
to deal {dealt; dealt }with sth .

sich nicht um etw .kümmern ;etw .liegen lassen ;etw .nicht erledigen 
to leave sth .unattended 

nachlässig erledigen ;hudeln [ugs.] 
to skimp 

Ich ließ es erledigen .
Ihad it done .

Hausarbeit {f}; Arbeit im Haushalt ;häusliche Pflichten 
housework ;chores {pl}; household chores {pl} 

   den Haushalt machen ;den Haushalt erledigen 
   to do the chores ;to housekeep {housekept; housekept }

Pensum {n} 
stint 

   sein tägliches Pensum erledigen 
   to do one's daily stint 


> In
> this sentence I would say "to handle", like:
> "A destinction is to be made between those who can be handled the usual way
> and those who have to be submitted a special treatment."

The verb "handle" is certainly a possibility, as is "dealt with", but
"handle" lacks the finality that "erledigen" has, the prefix er- in
Germman often giving a verb a perfectiuve aspect, cf. schiessen "to shoot"
vs. erschiessen "to shoot dead". When people have been "erledigt",
something final and irreversible has happened to them, "handle" lacks this
nuance. I had considered "to take care of", but that has two meanings, one
of which would have supported Morghus's mistranslation, according to which
the normal Jews were taken care of, that is to say, their needs were
provided for (sorgen für), while the Jews in the special group would be
given "Sonderbehandlung" - Morghus's "special privileges" - this being
"ausgemerzt" (culled/eliminated) by a "rücksichtloses Vorfahren, nämlich
Exekution" ([a] brutal procedure, specifically execution). Why people
should be accorded "special privileges" for their reprehensibility in the
past, their potential dangerousness in the future, or the possible
propaganda value that news of their being "dealt with" in the customary
manner might have, as Morghus claims, is beyond me. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:24 EST 2005
Article: 1041606 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 07:22:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 13
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In article <117dnqss8pvc4ab@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> Something personal, Mr. Holman. Your time in Helsinki must be about 10 hours
> ahead from us here in California.
> Your last message seems to have been posted early in the morning at 4 AM.
> You must be an early riser.

No, I go to bed late and wake up esrly. It is 07.23 and I am back at the
keyboard after three hours of sleep.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:25 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 08:56:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 14
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In article <9nDde.1199328$Xk.78347@pd7tw3no>, "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Yes we all know you are a desperate Nizor fan or promoter to you really work
> for a living how much do you get for keeping nizor alive.

I do indeed work for a living, as a linguist, teacher, and translator. One
aspect of my work is analyzing the arguments used here to prove or
disprove that the Holoaust took place.

I have no economic relationship with Nizkor at all. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:25 EST 2005
Article: 1041632 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 10:42:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117dbpcjoh9ag87@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:


> 
> Before you can translate anything from German to another language, you have
> to understand the German text fully. And I don't think you do. For example:
> "etwas zu erledigen" does not mean in English "to finish something off". 

But "jemanden erledigen", note the [+human] semantics of the direct
object, usually means to "finish off"/"knock off", "vernichtend besiegen"
[destructively conquer/overcome],  someone, as in killing or at least
rendering harmless:

Source: http://www.sopos.org/aufsaetze/3d385517c40c1/1.phtml
"Sie haben ihn erledigt wie ein Stück Wild. Er war auf der Flucht. Und ein
Feind. Die ihn erschossen, wurden dafür befördert und dekoriert."
[Here "erledigt" obviously means killed; "erledigt" in sentence one is
paralleled with "erchossen" in sentence three.]


Source:
http://commandos.justgamers.de/komplettloesungen/tut_hfl_5/fahrer_of.html
"Sein Blickfeld streift kurz die Ecke, hinter der Du stehst. Sobald er
wieder weg schaut, rennst Du auf ihn zu und schiesst, sobald Du kannst.
Weil das schiefgehen kann, solltest Du vorher absichern.
 
Wenn Du ihn erledigt hast, versteckst Du Dich wieder hinter der Mauer.
Wenn andere Soldaten die Schüsse gehört haben, kommen Sie angerannt. Lock
sie mit Schüssen hinter die Mauer und erledige sie wie den Soldat B."
[This is from the instructions to a video game. It deals with an armed
reponse to an armed attack. The verb phrase "erledige sie" would translate
as "finish them off/kill them/knock them off".

Source:
http://www.osalo.net/cat--Spielfilm-Spielfilm-Action/produktindex__site_6
"Full Metal Yakuza (DVD): Seine Kollegen glauben, sie hätten ihn erledigt,
doch in Wahrheit steht der tölpelhafte und nunmehr sogar tote Yakuza
Kensuke erst vor seinem größten Auftritt. Unterhaltsames Frühwerk von
Nippons Skandalgarant Takashi Miike.; Kategorie: Spielfilm, Genre:
Action/Thriller, Orig... "
[This is a description of a Japanese action film. Yakuza is believed to
have been "finished off/killed", and the next clause says that he is
indeed dead.]

Source: http://www.g-freaks.de/Gamecube/Tests/TestsXIIIHilfe.php
"Wenn ihr oben seid, geht ihr bis zum Gitter und tötet die drei Wachen
draußen mit der Pistole. Wechselt wieder auf Sniper und eliminiert den
Scharfschützen rechst oben und den auf dem Turm. Haltet euch links und
geht durch die zwei Türen. Tötet die Wache und geht weiter durch die
nächsten Türen. Bückt euch und geht durch den Schacht. Achtung, von rechst
schießt einer der Gefangenen auf euch. Habt ihr ihn erledigt, wendet ihr
euch nach links und springt hinunter ins Wasser, geht den einzigen Weg und
über die Leiter nach oben. Level beendet. "
[This from another instruction manual for a video game. The verb
"erledigen" indicates the response to being shot at. The introductory
subordinate clause "Habt ihr ihn erledigt,..." translates as "If you have
finished him off/killed him/knocked him off,..."

In the four examples above verb "erledigen" has a [+human] direct object
and means either "kill" or the slightly more vague "finish off". One could
also translate it as "take care of", but then the context would have to
make it clear that this "taking care of" is not a matter of nursing or
hosting, but rather of solving or eliminating a person or persons that
have been a problem.

Source:
http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=&noframes=1&query=erledigen&service=&optword=1&optcase=1&opterrors=0&optpro=0&dlink=self


Deutsch 
English 

17 Ergebnisse für erledigen 
17 results for erledigen 

erledigen ;fertigwerden mit to deal {dealt; dealt }with 

beenden ;erledigen ;fertigstellen ;zu Ende führen ;vollenden to finish (off) 

   beendend ;erledigen d;fertigstellend ;zu Ende führend ;vollendend 
   finishing 

   beendet ;erledigt ;fertiggestellt ;zu Ende geführt ;vollendet 
   finished 

   beendet 
   finishes 

   beendet ;vollendet 
   finishes 

besorgen ;erledigen 
to see {saw; seen }to ;to deal {dealt; dealt }with ;to manage 

   besorgend ;erledigen d
   seeing to ;dealing with ;managing 

   besorgt ;erledigt 
   seen to ;dealt with ;managed 

sorgen für ;sich kümmern um ;Acht geben auf ;erledigen 
to take care of 

   sorgend ;sich kümmernd ;Acht gebend ;erledigen d
   taking care of 

   gesorgt ;sich gekümmert ;Acht gegeben ;erledigt 
   taken care of 

teilnehmen ;erledigen ;bedienen 
to attend 

   teilnehmend ;erledigen d;bedienend 
   attending 

   teilgenommen ;erledigt ;bedient 
   attended 

außer Haus erledigen lassen (von ); vergeben (an )
to contract out (to) 

beendigen ;erledigen 
to finish 

(prompt )erledigen ;erfüllen ;abschließen 
to dispatch 

(Feind )erledigen 
to smother [Am.] 

schnell erledigen 
to hustle 

etw .endgültig erledigen 
to put the lid on sth . [Br.] 

sich um etw .kümmern ;etw .erledigen 
to deal {dealt; dealt }with sth .

sich nicht um etw .kümmern ;etw .liegen lassen ;etw .nicht erledigen 
to leave sth .unattended 

nachlässig erledigen ;hudeln [ugs.] 
to skimp 

Ich ließ es erledigen .
Ihad it done .

Hausarbeit {f}; Arbeit im Haushalt ;häusliche Pflichten 
housework ;chores {pl}; household chores {pl} 

   den Haushalt machen ;den Haushalt erledigen 
   to do the chores ;to housekeep {housekept; housekept }

Pensum {n} 
stint 

   sein tägliches Pensum erledigen 
   to do one's daily stint 


> In
> this sentence I would say "to handle", like:
> "A destinction is to be made between those who can be handled the usual way
> and those who have to be submitted a special treatment."

The verb "handle" is certainly a possibility, as is "dealt with", but
"handle" lacks the finality that "erledigen" has, the prefix er- in
Germman often giving a verb a perfectiuve aspect, cf. schiessen "to shoot"
vs. erschiessen "to shoot dead". When people have been "erledigt",
something final and irreversible has happened to them, "handle" lacks this
nuance. I had considered "to take care of", but that has two meanings, one
of which would have supported Morghus's mistranslation, according to which
the normal Jews were taken care of, that is to say, their needs were
provided for (sorgen für), while the Jews in the special group would be
given "Sonderbehandlung" - Morghus's "special privileges" - this being
"ausgemerzt" (culled/eliminated) by a "rücksichtloses Vorfahren, nämlich
Exekution" ([a] brutal procedure, specifically execution). Why people
should be accorded "special privileges" for their reprehensibility in the
past, their potential dangerousness in the future, or the possible
propaganda value that news of their being "dealt with" in the customary
manner might have, as Morghus claims, is beyond me. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:25 EST 2005
Article: 1041643 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 16:55:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , Pieter
Kuiper  wrote:

> holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>  
> > "Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
> > hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
> > propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
> > durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
> > werden."
> 
> I saw a slightly different version in
> :
> > "Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich  um solche Sachverhalte, die 
> > hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer 
> > propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
> > durch rücksichtslosestes Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt 
> > werden."
> 
> A "zu" is missing (which should be there, gramatically).
> 
> But here it says "most ruthless"!

Correct. Here is some more context:

Source: ibid



Ein halbes Jahr später, am 2. Juni 1942, wurde Jerzy Szernat in
Wolfenbüttel hingerichtet. Ein besonders dunkles Kapitel stellen die
halb-öffentlichen Hinrichtungen dar, die außerhalb von
Zwangsarbeiterlagern vollzogen wurden und an denen häufig Landsleute
zwecks Abschreckung teilnehmen mussten. Die so genannte “Sonderbehandlung³
(“SB³) war im Sprachgebrauch der SS, der Gestapo, aber auch im
Reichsjustizministerium eine Umschreibung für Mord. Der Chef der
Sipo und des SD definierte die “Sonderbehandlung³ kaum 20 Tage nach
Kriegsausbruch zum ersten Mal. In seinem Erlass hieß es, dass in den
Fällen unterschieden werden solle

“zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher üblichen Wege erledigt werden können
und solchen, welcher eine Sonderbehandlung zugeführt werden müssen. Im
letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich
ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen
Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person durch
rücksichtslosestes Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt werden.³ 

Die Gestapo konnte also ohne Gerichtsbeschluss Hinrichtungen vornehmen.
Eine öffentliche Hinrichtung unter Hinzuziehung von polnischen
Zwangsarbeitern fanden beim Schützenplatz im “Daverdener Holz³ im Dorf
Daverden, zehn Kilometer von Verden entfernt, statt.




A half year later, on June 2, 1942, Jerzy Szernat was executed
("hingerichtet") in Wolfenbüttel. The semi-official executions
("Hinrichtungen") that were implemented outside of forced labor camps and
in which locals often had to participate as a deterrent, represent a
particularly sinister chapter. In the usage of the SS, the Gestapo, and
even in the Reich Ministry of Justice, so-called "special treatment"
("Sonderbehandlung") was a euphemism for murder. The chief of the Security
Police ("Sipo") and Security Service ("SD") defined "Special treatment"
for the first time a mere twenty days after the war broke out. His edict
stated that in the cases a distinction should be made:

"between those, that can be dealt with/treated in the way that has been
normal up until now, and those which have to be submitted to special
treatment. In the latter case it is a matter of such circumstances that,
due to their reprehensiveness, their dangerousness, or their
propagandistic consequences, are suitable, with no regard to the person,
to be eliminated ("ausgemerzt") by means of the most brutal proceudre,
specifically execution."

The Gestapo could thus carry out executions ("Hinrichtungen") without a
court order. A public execution ("Hinrichtung") with the obligatory
presence of Polish forced laborers took place in the "Daverden Woods" in
the village of Daverden, situated ten kilometers from Verden.




So, with more context I concede that "erledigt" can, but does not
necessarily, mean "killed/finished off", but I also insist all the more
strongly that "Exekution" and "ausgemerzt" are euphemisms here for
officially sanctioned extrajudicial killings. As to "erledigt", the forced
laborers in question were forced to live in overcrowded ghettos, given
minimal rations, and forced to work brutal hours. So for all practical
purposes "dealing with them/finishing them off in the usual way" means
allowing them to work themselves to death in horrible conditions, that is
to say, "allowing them to die a slow and agonizing death".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:26 EST 2005
Article: 1041645 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 17:45:37 +0300
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In article <1115126011.906881.94510@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Emil M=FCller wrote:
> 
> > Before you can translate anything from German to another language,
> you have
> > to understand the German text fully. And I don't think you do. For
> example:
> > "etwas zu erledigen" does not mean in English "to finish something
> off". In
> > this sentence I would say "to handle", like:
> > "A destinction is to be made between those who can be handled the
> usual way
> > and those who have to be submitted a special treatment."
> 
> 
> Before you can understand holocaust-type translations, you have to
> understand the motives of the holocaust hucksters.  The whole purpose
> of the deliberate mistranslations of the messages from Heydrich and
> Himmler is to furtively attach some sinister meaning to the German term
> "sonderbehandlung." The trick is to induce the the unsuspecting dupes
> to believe "sonderbehandlung" is really a code word for
> murder-most-foul. Then the hucksters can quote other messages using
> "sonderbehandlung" and claim that as evidence of some holocaust.
> 
> In fact, the Germans used "sonderbehandlung" to mean favored treatment,
> extra privileges, and exemption from standard procedures.
> Kaltenbrunner testified at those postwar kangaroo trials that the word
> "sonderbehandlung" as used in a document the prosecution introduced
> meant staying at fashionable hotels, permission to correspond freely,
> and a bottle of champagne each day. The orders accompanying Jewish VIPs
> sent to the comfortable village specially built by the Germans at
> Theresienstadt carried a notation of "sonderbehandlung." The word meant
> exceptionally preferential treatment, not exceptionally cruel
> treatment, and certainly not murder.

You are only telling half of the story. At the same trial, Kaltenbrunner
also stated that *Sonderbehandlung* had another, more sinister meaning:

Source: http://www.h-ref.de/literatur/r/remer/zeit-luegt.php

KALTENBRUNNER: Der Ausdruck »Sonderbehandlung« ist von der
Voruntersuchungsbehörde täglich einige Male mir gegenüber gebraucht
worden, jawohl. 

OBERST AMEN: Wissen Sie, was er bedeutet? 

KALTENBRUNNER: Es ist nur anzunehmen, ich kann mir den Ausdruck auch nicht
näher erklären, als daß es eine Verurteilung zum Tode nicht durch ein
öffentliches Gericht, sondern durch einen Befehl Himmlers ist. 

OBERST AMEN: Nun, der Angeklagte Keitel sagte aus, glaube ich, es sei
allgemein bekannt gewesen. Haben Sie nicht schon immer gewußt, was mit
»Sonderbehandlung« gemeint war? Ja oder nein, bitte! 

KALTENBRUNNER: Ja, ich habe Ihnen schon erklärt, ein Befehl Himmlers - ich
verweise auf den Befehl Hitlers von 1941 - also auch Hitlers, ohne
Gerichtsverfahren Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen... 


Source: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/04-12-46.htm


KALTENBRUNNER: The expression "special treatment" has been used by my
interrogators several times every day, yes. 

COL. AMEN: You know what it means? 

KALTENBRUNNER: It can only be assumed, although I cannot give an accurate
explanation, that this was a death sentence, not imposed by a public court
but by an order of Himmler's. 

COLT AMEN: Well, the Defendant Keitel testified that, I think, it was a
matter of common knowledge. Have you not at all times known what was meant
by "special treatment"? "Yes" or "no," please. 

KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. I have told you; an order from Himmler-I am referring
to Hitler's order of 1941, therefore also an order from Hitler-that
executions should be carried out without legal procedure. 



> But the holocaust promoters must keep plugging "sonderbehandlung" as a
> code word for cold blooded murder. 

That is what Kaltenbrunner says above. One of its meanings is "es eine
Verurteilung zum Tode nicht durch ein öffentliches Gericht, sondern durch
einen Befehl Himmlers". 

> A large percentage of the documents
> offered a proof of the bogus holocaust are based entirely on the
> inclusion of "sonderbehandlung" somewhere in the text. If the general
> public becomes aware that "sonderbehandlung" really means preferential
> treatment, a major support for the fraudulent holocaust edifice could
> crumble. That's the real reason for those wierd translations offered by
> the holocaust crowd.

The German word *Sonderbehandlung* has more than one meaning, a literal
one "privileged treatment", and a metaphorical one "extrajudicial
execution". There is nothing strange about this. If you are in debt up to
your neck to your local mafia money-lender, and he informs you that if you
don't pay up by tomorrow afternoon, he and his buddies are going to come
and "take you for a ride", common sense would tell you that they are not
going to take you on a picnic.

The Nazi authorities evidently tired of the potential ambiguity and
diabolical humor inherent in the word *Sonderbehandlung*. A memorandum
>from Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler's office dated April 10, 1943 to Dr.
Richard Korherr, the statistician responsible for documenting the number
of Jews eliminated within the final solution
[http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/korherr/anweisung-himmler.php], states
that "Der Reichsführer SS hat Ihren statistischen Bericht über "Die
Endlösung der europäischen Judenfrage" erhalten. Er wünscht, dass an
keiner Stelle von "Sonderbehandlung der Juden" gesprochen wird." Different
phrases are mandated for discussing the deportation of Jews through
Auschwitz and the extermination camps in the General Government as part of
the "Final Solution of ther Jewish Problem". 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:26 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 19:38:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1115134259.328498.261270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> >
> > You are only telling half of the story. At the same trial,
> Kaltenbrunner
> > also stated that *Sonderbehandlung* had another, more sinister
> meaning:
> >
> > Source: http://www.h-ref.de/literatur/r/remer/zeit-luegt.php
> > 
> > KALTENBRUNNER: Der Ausdruck =BBSonderbehandlung=AB ist von der
> > Voruntersuchungsbeh=F6rde t=E4glich einige Male mir gegen=FCber
> gebraucht
> > worden, jawohl.
> >
> > OBERST AMEN: Wissen Sie, was er bedeutet?
> >
> > KALTENBRUNNER: Es ist nur anzunehmen, ich kann mir den Ausdruck auch
> nicht
> > n=E4her erkl=E4ren, als da=DF es eine Verurteilung zum Tode nicht durch
> ein
> > =F6ffentliches Gericht, sondern durch einen Befehl Himmlers ist.
> >
> > OBERST AMEN: Nun, der Angeklagte Keitel sagte aus, glaube ich, es sei
> > allgemein bekannt gewesen. Haben Sie nicht schon immer gewu=DFt, was
> mit
> > =BBSonderbehandlung=AB gemeint war? Ja oder nein, bitte!
> >
> > KALTENBRUNNER: Ja, ich habe Ihnen schon erkl=E4rt, ein Befehl Himmlers
> - ich
> > verweise auf den Befehl Hitlers von 1941 - also auch Hitlers, ohne
> > Gerichtsverfahren Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen...
> > 
> >
> > Source: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/04-12-46.htm
> >
> > 
> > KALTENBRUNNER: The expression "special treatment" has been used by my
> > interrogators several times every day, yes.
> >
> > COL. AMEN: You know what it means?
> >
> > KALTENBRUNNER: It can only be assumed, although I cannot give an
> accurate
> > explanation, that this was a death sentence, not imposed by a public
> court
> > but by an order of Himmler's.
> >
> > COLT AMEN: Well, the Defendant Keitel testified that, I think, it was
> a
> > matter of common knowledge. Have you not at all times known what was
> meant
> > by "special treatment"? "Yes" or "no," please.
> >
> > KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. I have told you; an order from Himmler-I am
> referring
> > to Hitler's order of 1941, therefore also an order from Hitler-that
> > executions should be carried out without legal procedure.
> > 
> >
> >
> > > But the holocaust promoters must keep plugging "sonderbehandlung"
> as a
> > > code word for cold blooded murder.
> >
> > That is what Kaltenbrunner says above. One of its meanings is "es
> eine
> > Verurteilung zum Tode nicht durch ein =F6ffentliches Gericht, sondern
> durch
> > einen Befehl Himmlers".
> >
> 
> No, Eugene, not at all. Kaltenbrunner simply said he "assumed" that was
> the meaning the Allied interrogators attached to the word
> "Sonderbehandlung."  Kaltenbrunner never said that was the meaning of
> the word as used in any of the German documents. 

Read the above exchange again, this time for content.

Kaltenbrunner first hedges and, when asked if he knows the expression,
says "Es ist nur anzunehmen, ich kann mir den Ausdruck auch nicht näher
erklären, als daß es eine Verurteilung zum Tode nicht durch ein
öffentliches Gericht, sondern durch einen Befehl Himmlers ist."

That is quite a lot of specific information for a mere assumption.

Pressed, when asked to respond "yes" or "no" to whether he had *always*
known what the word *Sonderbehandlung* means ["Haben Sie nicht schon immer
gewußt, was
mit *Sonderbehandlung* gemeint war? Ja oder nein, bitte!] he responds with
even more specific information: "Ja, ich habe Ihnen schon erklärt, ein
Befehl Himmlers - ich verweise auf den Befehl Hitlers von 1941 - also auch
Hitlers, ohne Gerichtsverfahren Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen..." He relates
that special meaning to an order issued by Himmler on the order of an
order issued by Hitler in 1941 to implement extrajudicial executions
["Hinrichtungen"]. He is definitely *not* speaking here about
accommodation in luxury hotels and a daily bottle of champagne.


> The Germans used the
> word to mean favorable treatment.
>
> But we can see from that exchange that the strategy of changing the
> meaning of German words in order to fabricate some kind of holocaust
> started very early in the game.

Kaltenbrunner relates this euphemistic use of the word to ordes given by
Hitler to Himmler in 1941, so it is hardly an instantiation of a
fabrication. Remember, too, that Kaltenbrunner's entire defense was based
upon his claim that he first had no idea about the mass murders that were
being committed in the giant network of concentration camps that he, as
the head of the RSHA, was the director of, and that when he did find out,
he tried to put a stop to it.



> > The German word *Sonderbehandlung* has more than one meaning, a
> literal
> > one "privileged treatment", and a metaphorical one "extrajudicial
> > execution". There is nothing strange about this. If you are in debt
> up to
> > your neck to your local mafia money-lender, and he informs you that
> if you
> > don't pay up by tomorrow afternoon, he and his buddies are going to
> come
> > and "take you for a ride", common sense would tell you that they are
> not
> > going to take you on a picnic.
> 
> 
> The Germans were not the Mafia, Eugene.  

Not the Germans, the *Nazis* set up and ran a criminal organization as the
government of Germany. They killed, stole, and destroyed on a scale that
makes the Mafia look like a bunch of incompetent pickpockets and shakedown
artists. After twelve years in power they left Germany and much of the
territory of surrounding countries in ruins. They are responsible for the
deaths of at least 20,000,000 people, as well as for pilliging and
plundering on a scale not seen in Europe since the invasion of the Huns
[see the review of the standard work on the systemtic plundering of the
Netherlands by the Nazis at e.g.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/wwii/2005-April/007587.html].

> "Sonderbehandlung" had only
> one meaning to the German leadership: "preferential treatment." All
> your tricky translations can't change that.

And I claim that the testimony of Ernst Kaltenbrunner shows that at least
since 1941 it was also in wide use among the Nazi leaders as a synonym for
the implementation of extrajudicial executions [ohne Gerichtsverfahren
Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen] as sanctioned by orders from the highest
level.

> > The Nazi authorities evidently tired of the potential ambiguity and
> > diabolical humor inherent in the word *Sonderbehandlung*.
> 
> "Diabolical humor?" So now those benign German messages take on a
> diabolical glow, right Eugene?  How devilish of those clever Germans to
> use a term that means special kindnesses to stand for merciless murder
> of a special kind.

If *Sonderbehandlung* can mean both "privileged treatment" and
"extrajudicial execution" there is certainly a kind of diabolical humor in
the metaphor. And it isnot a German monopoly to engage in such humor: in
American usage a *hot seat* can be a seat that has been standing in the
sun too long ("The child sat down in the hot seat, only to immediately
jump up, screaming in pain."), a seat the occupant of which is in a
problematic situation ("David Irving really put himself into the hot seat
when he decided to go on with the libel trial against Deborah Lipstadt and
Penguinbe Books Ltd."), or an executional device ("The murderer was
executed in the hot seat").
 
> Such is the twisted mentality of the holocaust believers and promoters.

Every language known uses metaphors, some of them quite humorous. If you
see the sentence, "The curvaceous woman strode salaciously into the room,
her melons bouncing.", the first thing that comes to mind is *not* going
to be a load of fruit."

> They see Germanic evil everywhere, in every word uttered, in every note
> written, in every move by the terrible Germans. 

I have nothing against Germans. It's the Nazis that are responsible for
this metaphor which, by the way, is now given in all recent monolingual
German dictionaries as the first meaning. Since the word carries so much
historical baggage, Germans tend to avoid it in its non-metaphorical
concrete meaning:

Source: Duden. *Das große Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache in 10 Bänden*,
3rd edition, 1999. fol. 8, pg. 3601:


Sonderbehandling, die: 1. (nationalsoz. verhüll.) (zur Zeit der
nationalsozialistischen Herrschaft) Ermordung, Tötung von Gegners des
nationalsozialistischen Regimes sowie von Angehörigen der als minderwertig
erachteten Völker und anderer nicht erwünschter Personengruppen:
Die...Richtlinien des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei vom 28 Juni 1941 waren
somit die allerersten schriftlichen Bestimmungen, einen spezifischen
jüdischen Opferkreis der »Sonderbehandlung zuzuführen« (Zeit 3.5.96, 44);
zur S. kommen (getötet werden); Auch die vollkommen wehrlosen jüdischen
Kriegsgefangenen der Roten Armee wurden problemlos an SS und Polizei zur
»Sonderbehandluntg« überstellt (Zeit 3.5.96, 44). 2. besondere [jmdn.
bevorzugende] Behandlung.


> When Germans smiled,
> they were planning murder.  When the evidence indicates the Germans
> provided ample food, the holohucksters conclude the Germans planned
> only to fatten before killing.  

It is singualrly unfortunate that you are unable to distinguish between
nazis and Germans. Austiran born Hitler and Kaltenbrunner, for example,
were Nazis, but not exactly Germans.

> A swimming pool must become a drowning
> pool. A shower room becomes a gassing room. 

If you are going to gas large numbers of people it makes good sense to
make the gas chamber look as innocuous as possible. People tend to become
unruly when they realize that they are being lined up to be slaughtered.

> The fertile mind of the
> holohucksters will easily convert a Catholic High Mass into a mass
> murder meeting if the services were held in Germany during the war.
> Special treatment? Why...it must mean special murder if the Germans
> said it.  Such is the special evidence of the special lie called the
> holocaust.

I refer you only to Kaltenrunner's own words:


OBERST AMEN: Nun, der Angeklagte Keitel sagte aus, glaube ich, es sei
allgemein bekannt gewesen. Haben Sie nicht schon immer gewußt, was
mit »Sonderbehandlung« gemeint war? Ja oder nein, bitte!

KALTENBRUNNER: Ja, ich habe Ihnen schon erklärt, ein Befehl Himmlers
- ich verweise auf den Befehl Hitlers von 1941 - also auch Hitlers, ohne
Gerichtsverfahren Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen...


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:27 EST 2005
Article: 1041656 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 21:00:36 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117fedf2c7opb98@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0305051042430001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> "erledigen" means according to the Duden Band 10, 1985 "Das Bedeutungs
> Wörterbuch":
> (etwas, was zur Ausführung ansteht, was getan werden muß) ausführen, zuende
> führen. Er wollte zuerst seine Arbeit erledigen; die Bestellung wurde sofort
> erledigt.
> 
> Sinnverwandt: abmachen, abwickeln, aufarbeiten, ausführen, besorgen,
> durchführen, verwirklichen
> 
> Beispiele:
> "Hier ist ein neuer Auftrag. Bitte erledigen Sie den!"
> "Ich habe alles zu seiner Zufriedenheit erledigt."
> "Ich muß beim Steueramt etwas erledigen." (Pay my taxes)
> 
> "erledigen" could mean in certain slang contexts "to finish":
> "Ich bin erledigt" (Lossed the trial) (Lossed all my money)
> In that sense it could mean "to kill".

The verb has many meanings, but you have avoided a sentence with a direct
object that is [+human], as in:

   Der Partisan hat zwei deutsche Soldaten erledigt.
   In Rumbula sollen die Sicherheitsdienst mehr als 25,000 Juden erledigt haben.
   Ein Sniper hat den Präsidenten erledigt.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:27 EST 2005
Article: 1041675 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 23:05:55 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117fedf2c7opb98@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0305051042430001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> "erledigen" means according to the Duden Band 10, 1985 "Das Bedeutungs
> Wörterbuch":
> (etwas, was zur Ausführung ansteht, was getan werden muß) ausführen, zuende
> führen. Er wollte zuerst seine Arbeit erledigen; die Bestellung wurde sofort
> erledigt.
> 
> Sinnverwandt: abmachen, abwickeln, aufarbeiten, ausführen, besorgen,
> durchführen, verwirklichen
> 
> Beispiele:
> "Hier ist ein neuer Auftrag. Bitte erledigen Sie den!"
> "Ich habe alles zu seiner Zufriedenheit erledigt."
> "Ich muß beim Steueramt etwas erledigen." (Pay my taxes)
> 
> "erledigen" could mean in certain slang contexts "to finish":
> "Ich bin erledigt" (Lossed the trial) (Lossed all my money)
> In that sense it could mean "to kill".

The verb has many meanings, but you have avoided a sentence with a direct
object that is [+human], as in:

   Der Partisan hat zwei deutsche Soldaten erledigt.
   In Rumbula soll die Sicherheitsdienst mehr als 25,000 Juden erledigt haben.
   Ein Sniper hat den Präsidenten erledigt.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:27 EST 2005
Article: 1041676 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 23:11:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117fedf2c7opb98@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0305051042430001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> "erledigen" means according to the Duden Band 10, 1985 "Das Bedeutungs
> Wörterbuch":
> (etwas, was zur Ausführung ansteht, was getan werden muß) ausführen, zuende
> führen. Er wollte zuerst seine Arbeit erledigen; die Bestellung wurde sofort
> erledigt.
> 
> Sinnverwandt: abmachen, abwickeln, aufarbeiten, ausführen, besorgen,
> durchführen, verwirklichen
> 
> Beispiele:
> "Hier ist ein neuer Auftrag. Bitte erledigen Sie den!"
  "Here is a new assignment. Please carry it out."

> "Ich habe alles zu seiner Zufriedenheit erledigt."
  "I've taken care of everything to his satisfaction."

> "Ich muß beim Steueramt etwas erledigen." (Pay my taxes)
  "I have to take care of something at the tax office."

 
> "erledigen" could mean in certain slang contexts "to finish":
> "Ich bin erledigt" (Lossed the trial) (Lossed all my money)
> In that sense it could mean "to kill".

The verb has many meanings, but you have avoided a sentence with a direct
object that is [+human], as in:

   Der Partisan hat zwei deutsche Soldaten erledigt.
   "The partisan finished off two German soldiers."

   In Rumbula soll die Sicherheitsdienst mehr als 25,000 Juden erledigt haben.
   "In Rumbula it is said that the Security Service did away with 25,000 Jews."

   Ein Sniper hat den Präsidenten erledigt.
   "A sniper knocked off the president."

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:27 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:47:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117fohcsdgf4u76@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0305052100360001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> 
> [...]
> 
> > The verb has many meanings, but you have avoided a sentence with a direct
> > object that is [+human], as in:
> >
> >    Der Partisan hat zwei deutsche Soldaten erledigt.
> >    In Rumbula soll die Sicherheitsdienst mehr als 25,000 Juden erledigt
> haben.
> >    Ein Sniper hat den Präsidenten erledigt.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> I quoted the Duden entry complete, without any deletions or omissions. The
> definition of "erledigen" does not include "killing" etc.
> 
> The book is the standard German dictionary.

No it isn't. It is prduce by a commercial publishing house. It is
authoritative,  but hardly standard in the sense of officially sanctioned.

> 
> If you as a foreigner have a different opinion, that is your problem.

It's not a question of being a foreigner or not. Many of the people who
translate from German to some other language are foreigners and have
German as their second language.

In this case is is simply a matter of the semantics of the direct object.
In the sentence:

   Der Partisan hat eine Aufgabe erledigt.
   "The partisan has completed his assignment."

the verb "erledigt" means, from the standpoint of English, something
differemt than it does in:

   Der Partisan hat einen Soldaten erledigt.
   "The partisan has knocked off a soldier."

Regards, 
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:28 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:28:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117fedf2c7opb98@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0305051042430001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> "erledigen" means according to the Duden Band 10, 1985 "Das Bedeutungs
> Wörterbuch":
> (etwas, was zur Ausführung ansteht, was getan werden muß) ausführen, zuende
> führen. Er wollte zuerst seine Arbeit erledigen; die Bestellung wurde sofort
> erledigt.
> 
> Sinnverwandt: abmachen, abwickeln, aufarbeiten, ausführen, besorgen,
> durchführen, verwirklichen
> 
> Beispiele:
> "Hier ist ein neuer Auftrag. Bitte erledigen Sie den!"
  "Here is a new assignment. Please carry it out."

> "Ich habe alles zu seiner Zufriedenheit erledigt."
  "I've taken care of everything to his satisfaction."

> "Ich muß beim Steueramt etwas erledigen." (Pay my taxes)
  "I have to take care of something at the tax office."

 
> "erledigen" could mean in certain slang contexts "to finish":
> "Ich bin erledigt" (Lossed the trial) (Lossed all my money)
> In that sense it could mean "to kill".

The verb has many meanings, but you have avoided a sentence with a direct
object that is [+human], as in:

   Der Partisan hat zwei deutsche Soldaten erledigt.
   "The partisan finished off two German soldiers."

   In Rumbula soll die Sicherheitsdienst mehr als 25.000 Juden erledigt haben.
   "In Rumbula it is said that the Security Service did away with 25,000 Jews."

   Ein Sniper hat den Präsidenten erledigt.
   "A sniper knocked off the president."

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:28 EST 2005
Article: 1041766 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:03:08 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 130
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In article <1115154216.017336.220320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1115134259.328498.261270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> > "morghus"  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The Germans were not the Mafia, Eugene.
> >
> > Not the Germans, the *Nazis* set up and ran a criminal organization
> as the
> > government of Germany. They killed, stole, and destroyed on a scale
> that
> > makes the Mafia look like a bunch of incompetent pickpockets and
> shakedown
> > artists. After twelve years in power they left Germany and much of
> the
> > territory of surrounding countries in ruins.
> 
> The Nazis were members of a political party, nothing more.  The Allies
> were the ones who left Germany in ruins. Before the war, the German
> economy was thriving while the rest of the world struggled under a
> great economic depression.  Germans were quite happy with the
> government provided by the National Socialists.

If that is true explain:
- why Dachau was built to accommodate Social-democrats, trade union
leaders, and the increasing number of others opposed to the Hitler regime
[http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/dachau/subindex.htm];
- why many Germans who had once supported the Hitler regime started to
have severe reservations after the excesses of the Kristallnacht pogrom in
1938
[http://www.history-of-the-holocaust.org/LIBARC/ARCHIVE/Chapters/Terror/Kristall/Reaction.html].
 
> They are responsible for the
> > deaths of at least 20,000,000 people, as well as for pilliging and
> > plundering on a scale not seen in Europe since the invasion of the
> Huns
> > [see the review of the standard work on the systemtic plundering of
> the
> > Netherlands by the Nazis at e.g.
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/wwii/2005-April/007587.html].
> 
> 
> The war was started by England, France, and Canada. 

No. It was started by German when it invaded Poland, which had recently
signed a security treaty with Britain and France, early on the morning of
September 1, 1939, using a fabricated border incident at Gleiwitz as a
fabrication. Hitler was betting that that France and Britain would not
fulfill their treaty obligations, but France, Britain, and Britain's
dominions Australia and New Zealand responded by declaring war on Germany
on September 3. Thus, Hitler started the war, but in his typical fashion,
he did not declare it. France and Britain, on the other hand, were the
first to declare war but not the first ones to engage in warfare or mount
an attack.

> They used Poland as their excuse.  

Nonsense. Hitler knew that Poland had a security guarantee with Britain
and France, but he chose to attack nevertheless.

> The West was outraged at Germany's occupation of Poland,
> but seemed rather pleased at Russia's invasion and occupation of that
> same country.

The cat had been let out of the bag, so to speak. The USSR waited two
weeks ntil it invaded Poland from the eat on September 17.

> In fact, after the war the West just gave to Stalin all
> the Polish territory Russia had occupied before the Germans chased them
> out.

The West gave Stalin a lot of things in recognition of the fact that his
country made the decisive contribution to defeating the Nazis.

> As for pillaging and plundering, oo one pillaged and plundered like the
> Americans and the British. German industry, German inventions, and
> German property were parceled off to carpetbaggers for pennies on the
> dollar while the Germans were deliberately starved and enslaved in
> their own country.

That was after the war and that kind of pillaging is generally sanctioned
as partial reparations. The Nazis did their pillaging *during* the war.


> > > "Sonderbehandlung" had only
> > > one meaning to the German leadership: "preferential treatment." All
> > > your tricky translations can't change that.
> >
> > And I claim that the testimony of Ernst Kaltenbrunner shows that at
> least
> > since 1941 it was also in wide use among the Nazi leaders as a
> synonym for
> > the implementation of extrajudicial executions [ohne
> Gerichtsverfahren
> > Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen] as sanctioned by orders from the highest
> > level.
> 
> You and the rest of the holohucksters claim a lot of things--but the
> evidence refutes virtually all of it.  No orders to kill Jews were
> issued by Hitler, or Himmler, or any other German official in 1941 or
> at any other time.  "Sonderbehandlung" meant only one thing: favorable
> treatment.

Kaltenbrunner, who was in a better position to know than you are, stated
quite clearly concerning the meaning of *Sonderbehandlung*: Kaltenbrunner
first hedges and, when asked if he knows the expression, says "Es ist nur
anzunehmen, ich kann mir den Ausdruck auch nicht näher erklären, als daß
es eine Verurteilung zum Tode nicht durch ein öffentliches Gericht,
sondern durch einen Befehl Himmlers ist."

That is quite a lot of specific information for a mere assumption.

Pressed, when asked to respond "yes" or "no" to whether he had *always*
known what the word *Sonderbehandlung* means ["Haben Sie nicht schon immer
gewußt, was mit *Sonderbehandlung* gemeint war? Ja oder nein, bitte!] he
responds with even more specific information: "Ja, ich habe Ihnen schon
erklärt, ein Befehl Himmlers - ich verweise auf den Befehl Hitlers von
1941 - also auch
Hitlers, ohne Gerichtsverfahren Hinrichtungen zu vollziehen..." He relates
that special meaning to an order issued by Himmler on the order of an
order issued by Hitler in 1941 to implement extrajudicial executions
["Hinrichtungen"]. He is definitely *not* speaking here about
accommodation in luxury hotels and a daily bottle of champagne.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:28 EST 2005
Article: 1041794 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:19:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <117fohcsdgf4u76@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-0305052100360001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> 
> [...]
> 
> > The verb has many meanings, but you have avoided a sentence with a direct
> > object that is [+human], as in:
> >
> >    Der Partisan hat zwei deutsche Soldaten erledigt.
> >    In Rumbula sollen die Sicherheitsdienst mehr als 25,000 Juden erledigt
> haben.
> >    Ein Sniper hat den Präsidenten erledigt.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> I quoted the Duden entry complete, without any deletions or omissions. The
> definition of "erledigen" does not include "killing" etc.
> 
> The book is the standard German dictionary.
> 
> If you as a foreigner have a different opinion, that is your problem.

We are using different versions of Duden. Look at definition 2 below.

*Duden »Das große Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache«: in zehn Bänden/3.,
völlig neu bearb. und erw. Aufl. ­ 1999.Band 3.


erledigen  /vgl. erledigt/
[mhd. erledigen = frei machen, in Frei-
heit setzen, zu ^ledig]: 1.a) ausführen, zu
Ende führen, vollständig durchführen,
fertig machen: einen Auftrag, die For-
malitäten e.; das muss der Chef selbst e.;
viel zu e. (zu tun) haben; erledigt! (ugs.;
fertig, abgetan ­ darüber wird nicht mehr
gesprochen); b)  zum Abschluss
kommen, sich klären: das erledigt sich al-
les von selbst; der Fall hat sich erledigt.
2 . (ugs.) vernichtend besiegen; vernich-
ten: den Gegner [mit einem Schlag] e. Ü
jmdn. moralisch e.; durch die Verleum - 
dungen wurde er erledigt (gesellschaft-
lich unmöglich gemacht); Mit rationalis-
tischem Kopfschütteln sind sie (= die
Traditionen) nicht zu e. (Thieß, Reich
170); Berger, der den Hund e. (töten)
will, wird mit einem Beckenschuss weg-
geholt (Remarque, Westen 1949. <> 3.  sich entledigen, sich von etw. be-
freien: Drum tät es gut, dass eurer etliche
...still zurate gingen, wie man das Dru-
ckes sich möcht' e. (Schiller, Teill I, 2)



Most of people who translate out of German know German as a second
language and thus are quite aware of these nuances of meaning from  the
standpoint of their first language.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:29 EST 2005
Article: 1042185 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the fuck would they do it?
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 13:51:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article
<427c8ad1$0$259$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> An interesting documentary screened on SBS last night, entitled "Hollywood 
> and the Holocaust".
> 
> It actually pointed out how the (jew) Hollywood moguls, selectively chose 
> how to package and sell the holocaust story to the world. They were very 
> selective in what they chose to highlight, and how, where and when to 
> present it.
> 
> Why the fuck they would ever make a show like that, has me completely 
> stumped.
> 
> It showed collusion at a high level, in order a standard, agreed upon story, 
> could be shoved down the world's throat.
> 
> All they succeeded in doing however, was to prove that the Hollywood version 
> of the holocaust, is as honest a portrayal of the event, as does their event 
> of the winning of the wild west.
> 
> I imagine this will get the shills going. Who will be first - McFey?

Hollywood is about entertainment and simplified, black-and-white versions
of history. Readers seriously interested in knowing what the Holocaust was
about abd how it was implemented are advised to read Christopher R.
Browning's recent and meticulously researched book *The Origins of the
Final Solution. The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy 1939-1942*. Arrow
Books. 2005
(http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/catalog/book.htm?command=Search&db=main.txt&eqisbndata=0099454823).

For discussion see: 
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050101fabook84137/christopher-r-browning-jurgen-matthaus/the-origins-of-the-final-solution.html
http://unp.unl.edu/bookinfo/4477.html
http://www.historyofmilitary.com/The_Origins_of_the_Final_Solution_The_Evolution_of_Nazi_Jewish_Policy_September_1939March_1942_Comprehensive_History_of_the_Holocaust_Series_0803213271.html
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,1222639,00.html

Regards,
Eugene Holman


Regards,
Eugene Holman'


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:29 EST 2005
Article: 1042189 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the fuck would they do it?
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 15:47:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article
<427cb106$0$257$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-0705051351270001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...


> > Hollywood is about entertainment and simplified, black-and-white versions
> > of history. Readers seriously interested in knowing what the Holocaust was
> > about abd how it was implemented are advised to read Christopher R.
> > Browning's recent and meticulously researched book *The Origins of the
> > Final Solution. The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy 1939-1942*. Arrow
> > Books. 2005
> >
(http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/catalog/book.htm?command=Search&db=main.txt&eqisbndata=0099454823).
> >
> > For discussion see:
> >
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050101fabook84137/christopher-r-browning-jurgen-matthaus/the-origins-of-the-final-solution.html
> > http://unp.unl.edu/bookinfo/4477.html
> >
http://www.historyofmilitary.com/The_Origins_of_the_Final_Solution_The_Evolution_of_Nazi_Jewish_Policy_September_1939March_1942_Comprehensive_History_of_the_Holocaust_Series_0803213271.html
> > http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,1222639,00.html
>
> 
> And the great unwashed of the world's population couldn't give a damn about 
> reading historical tomes. 

That does not diminish the fact that the job that those entrusted with
writing those tomes are entrusted with is to preserve the accumulated
experience of humankind, one reason for this exercise being to help us
avoid making the same mistake twice.

> All they care to believe is what is dished up for 
> them via movies, television etc.

No matter how unwashed, most people understand that movies and television
are media of entertainment, not serious sources of historical information.

> Truth, nor historical accuracy, did not enter the equation when these people 
> were devising the sales package of their version of events, created for no 
> other reason than to support a burgeoning industry, ...

What "sales package"? Nazi Germany was the main practitioner of
aggression, ethnic cleansing, and genocide between 1938 and 1945. This
fact is being commemorated tomorrow and the day after when the deaths of
the close to 40,000,000 people killed by the Nazis or cambatting Nazism
will be honored. An inseparable part of Nazi aggression involved the quest
for *Lebensraum* ­ territory for German colonization that was already
inhabited by "inferior" peoples. Singling out Jews for extermination, the
Holocaust, evolved to become a crucial element of Nazi colonial policy. 

> Profiting from the misfortune of those caught up in the events of WWII is an 
> obscene act.

World War II is part of the collective experience of humankind. In a 
market-based economy people have the right to use collective experience as
the basis for works of art, including literature and motion pictures. If
they are going to make a product based on this common cultural repository,
surely they have the right to make a profit on their investment of time
and effort. The Holocaust is the most meticulously documented aspect of WW
II, we have masses of evidence produced by perpetrators and victims alike,
thus it is hardly surprising that works of fact and semi-fiction continue
to be produced about it.

> based on a guilt trip of their creation.

Guilt trip? Who feels guilty about the Holocaust today? The Holocaust is a
lesson that we can all learn from. It demonstrates how a cultivated and
advanced nation can lapse into insanity if it believes and acts upon the
claim of a maniacal leader that all of its problems have a single source
and can thus be solved with a simple, quick fix. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:29 EST 2005
Article: 1042199 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Russian aide: There was no Soviet occupation of the Baltics
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:23:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 34
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Source: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050505/39917617.html


PRESIDENTIAL AIDE: THE TERM "OCCUPATION" INAPPLICABLE FOR BALTICS 

16:20 

MOSCOW, May 5 (RIA Novosti) - The term "occupation" cannot be applied to
the Baltic nations, said Sergei Yastrzhembsky, the presidential aide. 

Speaking at a press conference in Moscow in view of the upcoming Russia-EU
summit, Yastrzhembsky said Soviet troops had entered the Baltics in 1940
"in accordance with the agreements and expressed consent of the then
governments of the [Baltic] republics, regardless of how their actions can
be interpreted today." 

"The USSR was not in a state of war and was not waging any combat
activities on the territory of the three Baltic states, therefore there
can be no talk about 'occupation'," he said in view of the Russian visit
by the US president who described the end of WWII as "occupation" for
Eastern Europe and the Baltics in his letter to Latvian leader Vaira
Vike-Freiberga. 

Yastrzhembsky also said, "the national authorities of the three Baltic
states took the independent decision to withdraw from the USSR in 1990." 

The presidential aide said the statement of the European Commissioner from
Germany about the need for Russia to acknowledge Soviet occupation of the
Baltics if it is to develop relations with the EU was "surprising." 

According to him, the statement was ill-timed, "as it was made ahead of
the historic date [the V-E day celebrations in Russia are due on May 9th]
and contradicts all the other statements of the EU leadership." 



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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the fuck would they do it?
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:27:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <5N3fe.1263091$8l.1073436@pd7tw1no>, "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Do you mean they also preserve exaggeration and outright lies.



You often make claims like this, but never support them.

Why don't you post an example of an exaggeration or outright lie here in
AR along with information supporting your claim that things are as you
claim they are? 

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:30 EST 2005
Article: 1042205 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: On Morghus's "translations" from German (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:52:04 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 113
Message-ID: 
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In article <1115126011.906881.94510@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:


> 
> In fact, the Germans used "sonderbehandlung" to mean favored treatment,
> extra privileges, and exemption from standard procedures.
> Kaltenbrunner testified at those postwar kangaroo trials that the word
> "sonderbehandlung" as used in a document the prosecution introduced
> meant staying at fashionable hotels, permission to correspond freely,
> and a bottle of champagne each day. The orders accompanying Jewish VIPs
> sent to the comfortable village specially built by the Germans at
> Theresienstadt carried a notation of "sonderbehandlung." The word meant
> exceptionally preferential treatment, not exceptionally cruel
> treatment, and certainly not murder.

Source:
http://www.peachtree-online.com/Yellow_Star_no_art/Adults/theresienstat.htm





Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:30 EST 2005
Article: 1042219 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-monga!easynet.net!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!bandi.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 10 Best Things About Being a Revisionist
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:56:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
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In article <1115477792.615643.292190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Chris
Larson"  wrote:

> 1) Your entire group can fit in a Volkswagen (or even a rusted out 1971
> Ford Pinto)
> 2) You can establish a conclusion- then make up how you got there.
> 3) You can blame the Jews for everything- inability to hold a job,
> "controlling the media" (despite the fact that revisionists are the
> first ones lined up to watch the trash on Fox), etc.
> 4) You can dispute anything and everything that Jews say "because they
> always lie", then turn around and post quotes by Jews to support your
> side (a beauty pointed out by Joe Bruno).
> 5)You can also blame Jews for slavery, droughts, the Tsunami disaster
> and start discussions that events like 911 did not happen.

6) You can claim that cyanide residues found on the walls of alleged gas
chambers are the result of fumigation, and that the chambers could not
have been  used for gassing people because that could have poisoned the
entire camp.

7) You can say that all evidence for the Holocuast was forged,
mistranslated, or obtained by torture.

8) You can claim that *Sonderbehandlung* means that the people subjected
to it were accommodated by the Nazis in de luxe hotel suites and allowed a
diplomat's food rations plus a daily bottle of champagne.

9) You can claim that Great Britain and France, not Nazi Germany, started WW II.

9.3) You can claim that David Irving lost his libel suit against David
Irving because the Jews paid off Judge Gray. 

9.6) You can claim that the only proof of mass murder is bones: "No bones,
no mass murder!"

10) You can say that the Holocaust never happened, but that the Jews
deserved it anyway.

> 
> OK guys I need help here- any thoughts for the rest of the top 10?
> 
> Thanks!

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:30 EST 2005
Article: 1042369 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide residues micrograms vs milligrams: Leuchter and Rudolf vs Jan Sehn
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 11:40:40 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
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In article <1115536725.689916.231400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> You are fixated on Prussian Blue, arent you?
>
> So Leuchter and Rudolf measure differences in total cyanide.
> And the Jan Sehn institute measure differences in 0.1% of the cyanide.
> 
> Which is the more accurate approach?  Why deliberately exclude 99.9% of
> cyanide residues in your analysis?

The presence of Prussian blue is not a reliable test for exposure to cyanide:
- the presence of Prussian blue is a strong positive index of exposure to
cyanide;
- the absence of Prussian blue does not exclude exposure to cyanide.

The walls of the gas chamber at Majdanek, for example, show irregular blue
splotching (cf.
http://www.uoregon.edu/~dluebke/Holocaust410-510/BlueMajdanek.jpg).
Prussian blue forms irregularly upon exposure to cyanide according to
processes that are not yet fully understood. A more neutral test for
exposure to cyanide is to test for cyanide ions, as the IFRC team did in
the Cracow report. Cyanide ions will *always* be left behind if a surface
is exposed to cyanide. Radically different readings for Prussian blue
would be obtained from samples taken from different parts of this same
wall, but a sample taken from any part of this wall would test positive
for cyanide ions.

One of Leuchter's fatal errors was to present figures that had only
qualitative validity (yes or no) as having quantitative validity (how
much?). Due to the sloppiness of his sampling technique in the field and
the destructive nature of the analytical procedure subsequently used at
the laboratory, the figures that Leuchter presents have *no scientific
value as quantitative indices*. The only thing that they indicate is that
14 of Leuchter's 31 samples taken from places that other historical
evidence indicates were gas chambers yield positive readings for the
presence of cyanide compounds using the generous threshold of detection of
1 mg/kg. This is more than forty years after their last exposure to
cyanide, and, with the exception of the samples taken from Krema I in
Auschwitz-Stammlager, includes a period of having been exposed to the
elements between early 1945 and the time the samples were taken in late
1987.

Leuchter is blatanly dishonest in trying to pass off qualitative indices
as quantitative information. The value of his work is further diminished
by the fact that he mkes no attempt to account for the affect that his
single "control" sample was taken from a place that had been sheltered
>from the elements since 1945, while most of his samples from alleged gas
chamber ruins were taken from places that had been regularly cleaned when
being used and then exposed to the elements as ruins after demolition. The
Cracow team ran experiments that demonstrated water, sunlight, and the
nature of the construction material sampled all to play a crucial role in
the formation and short and longer-term retention of residual cyanates.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:30 EST 2005
Article: 1042429 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,de.soc.politik.misc
Subject: Re: Why the fuck would they do it?
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:07:47 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 14
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In article , "<>"  wrote:

> Professor Holman is a Jew???
> He is too intelligent to be a religious fanatic
> or of a middle eastern extraction.

Just for the record, I am an African-American of mixed African,
Amerindian, and European extraction
[http://www.eng.helsinki.fi/main/staff/holman_e.shtml]. I neither follow
nor recognize any religion. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:31 EST 2005
Article: 1042437 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!novia!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 10 Best Things About Being a Revisionist
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:32:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 68
Message-ID: 
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In article <1115495863.259432.232130@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
EmilMll1929@yahoo.com wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > 6) You can claim that cyanide residues found on the walls of alleged
> gas
> > chambers are the result of fumigation, and that the chambers could
> not
> > have been  used for gassing people because that could have poisoned
> the
> > entire camp.
> >
> And why would the morgues in Birkenau not be fumigated? 

Lice die shortly after their hosts die. What reason would there be to
fumigate a place where dead people and their equally dead parasitical lice
were stored?

> During
> epedemics with up to 500 dead per day, with a total camp population of
> only 20,000, everything was fumigated.

When did the Auschwitz complex, of which Birkenau was a part, ever have as
few as 20,000 inmates.
> 
> The Holocaust believers are not talking of an accidental killing of
> people with HCN gas, but a programmed and planned killing of thousands
> of people at a time. 

Correct. And anyone who understands how cyanide interacts with people as
opposed to lice knows that killing a few thousand of people at a time is a
far easier and less dangerous task than killing hundreds of thousands of
lice at a time. A faciltiy that could sustain the concentrations of
cyanide over the timeframe needed to kill lice without constituting a
hazard to its surroundings could certainly sustain the far lower
concentrations of cyanide over the far shorter timeframe needed to kill
people.

> Anyone who is only slightly familiar with German
> engineering and handcraft quality would expect a homicidal gas chamber
> similar to US execution gas chambers, even better, suitable for
> thousands of victims at a time.

That is an unjustifiable and absurd assumption. Anyone only slightly
familiar with the logistics of executing thousands of people at a time
would expect a facility designed for such a purpose to be as low-tech and
neutral looking as possible. People who realize that they are about to be
slaughtered tend to become unruly or worse. Given the
perpetrator-to-victim ratio at the camps with gas chambers, the only way
to ensure that the intended victims would enter the gas chambers in an
orderly fashion was to ensure that the execution facilities did not look
threatening. This deception had already been perfected within the
framework of the T-4 euthanasia program, where many of the gas chambers
were constructed to look like shower rooms.
 
> Is that what was found at the site?

Of course not. What was found at Auschwitz-Birkernau was the ruins or
foundations of buildings that are known to have been constructed in 1943.
Samples taken from them by Leuchter, the Cracow team, and others indicate
that parts of them were subjected to enough cyanide to have left clearly
detectable traces even after close to half a century of exposure to the
elements.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:31 EST 2005
Article: 1042441 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!freenix!proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!194.100.2.60.MISMATCH!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.russian
Subject: Re: 100 thousand German woman raped by the Russians in Berlin
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:41:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 13
Message-ID: 
References:  
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Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1042441 soc.culture.russian:390680

In article , "<>"  wrote:


> 
> PS. Prussia was and still is populated by Slavs before the Germanic
> invasion, why would Russians be interested in more of the same.
> Do you think German women are prettier?

The original Prussians were Balts, not Slavs.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:31 EST 2005
Article: 1042442 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What does Sonderbehandlung mean?
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:50:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <1115495716.508113.186600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1115520273.705184.241710@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
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In article <1115520273.705184.241710@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"morghus"  wrote:

>
> 
> There it is again: "Sonderbehandlung" used in a manner that can only
> mean "preferential treatment."  The little liar was sent to
> Theresienstadt, a  special camp created by the Germans where Jews had
> comfortable quarters, schools, playgrounds, synagogues, theatres, and
> meeting halls.  In fact, everyone who was sent to Theresienstadt
> carried orders bearing the notation "Sonderbehandlung."    The word
> meant special privileges or favored treatment.



Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderbehandlung


Sonderbehandlung 

"Sonderbehandlung" war eine Tarn-Bezeichnung der SS während der Zeit des
Dritten Reiches für die Ermordung von Menschen. Diese euphemistische
Bezeichnung sollte wie "Endlösung", "Umsiedlung" oder "Evakuierung" die
tatsächlichen Machenschaften verschleiern helfen. Ein Beispiel unter
vielen für die Verwendung dieses Begriffes ist dieser Text von Heinrich
Himmler:

"(4) In besonders schweren Fällen ist beim Reichssicherheitshauptamt
Sonderbehandlung unter Angabe der Personalien und des genauen Tatbestandes
zu beantragen. 

(5) Die Sonderbehandlung erfolgt durch den Strang." 

Im Laufe der Ermittlungs- und Strafverfahren wegen der NS-Verbrechen
zeigte sich, dass in den mit einschlägigen Vorgängen befaßten Kreisen
keine Zweifel darüber bestanden, was unter diesem Begriff zu verstehen
war. Der SS-Gruppenführer und höhere SS- und Polizeiführer Emil Mazuw sagt
hierzu: 
"Sonderbehandlung war mit "liquidieren" gleichzusetzen. Ich habe auch
keine Aufklärung über diesen Begriff in Neu-Sandez meinen Untergebenen
geben brauchen. Er war allgemein bekannt ..." 

Im Frühjahr 1943 war der Begriff bereits so bekannt geworden, dass er nach
Ansicht des Reichsführers-SS Himmler die Tarnfunktion nicht mehr erfüllen
konnte. 

Der Holocaustleugner Germar Rudolf hat mit äußerst zweifelhaften und
unwissenschaftlichen Methoden in seinem Buch “Grundlagen zur
Zeitgeschichte³ den untauglichen Versuch unternommen, eine andere Deutung
dieses Begriffes zu etablieren. 



You may or may not agree with the above, but I eagerly await your input on
how Himmler's statement: "Die Sonderbehandlung erfolgt durch den Strang."
cited above is to be translated and interpreted.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:31 EST 2005
Article: 1042446 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-monga!easynet.net!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 10 Best Things About Being a Revisionist
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:14:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
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Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1042446

In article <1115477792.615643.292190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Chris
Larson"  wrote:

> 1) Your entire group can fit in a Volkswagen (or even a rusted out 1971
> Ford Pinto)
> 2) You can establish a conclusion- then make up how you got there.
> 3) You can blame the Jews for everything- inability to hold a job,
> "controlling the media" (despite the fact that revisionists are the
> first ones lined up to watch the trash on Fox), etc.
> 4) You can dispute anything and everything that Jews say "because they
> always lie", then turn around and post quotes by Jews to support your
> side (a beauty pointed out by Joe Bruno).
> 5)You can also blame Jews for slavery, droughts, the Tsunami disaster
> and start discussions that events like 911 did not happen.

6) You can claim that cyanide residues found on the walls of alleged gas
chambers are the result of fumigation, and that the chambers could not
have been  used for gassing people because that could have poisoned the
entire camp.

7) You can say that all evidence for the Holocuast was forged,
mistranslated, or obtained by torture.

8) You can claim that *Sonderbehandlung* means that the people subjected
to it were accommodated by the Nazis in de luxe hotel suites and allowed a
diplomat's food rations plus a daily bottle of champagne.

9) You can claim that Great Britain and France, not Nazi Germany, started WW II.

9.3) You can claim that David Irving only lost his libel suit against
Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books Ltd. because the Jews paid off Judge
Gray. 

9.6) You can claim that the only proof of mass murder is bones: "No bones,
no mass murder! No mass murder, no Holocaust!"

10) You can say that the Holocaust never happened, but that the Jews
deserved it anyway.

> 
> OK guys I need help here- any thoughts for the rest of the top 10?
> 
> Thanks!

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:32 EST 2005
Article: 1042484 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-monga!easynet.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.russian
Subject: Re: 100 thousand German woman raped by the Russians in Berlin
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 23:14:09 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
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In article , "<>"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-0805051641530001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...



> >> PS. Prussia was and still is populated by Slavs before the Germanic
> >> invasion, why would Russians be interested in more of the same.
> >> Do you think German women are prettier?
> >
> > The original Prussians were Balts, not Slavs.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> 
> Yes but they were conquered by Slavic tribes before the Germans.

No they weren't. They were assimilated into the Germans, who then recycled
their ethnonym.

> BTW, what is Baltic by you if not Slavs.

The Balts are a completely different group. The Balts entered their
present area more than 4,000 years ago, making them one of the oldest
groups speaking Indo-European languages in Europe. The Slavs, on the other
hand, are of much later origin, first appearing on the scene at the time
of the Völkerwanderungen.

> The Eskimo genes are practically assimilated. 

What's that got to do with the price of beer in Camberra?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:32 EST 2005
Article: 1042618 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Did you know?
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 08:33:01 +0300
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In article , scott@free.info wrote:


> 
> I'll never forget the day I spent with Wernher von Braun at
> Huntsville.  America could have never done it with out him, and we
> knew it.

Lest we forget...

Source: http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/wernherv.htm


ARTIST: Tom Lehrer
TITLE: Wernher Von Braun
Lyrics and Chords


Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun

/ G7 - C - / G7 C G7 C / G7 - C A7 / Dm C G7 C / 

Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun

/ B7 - Em - / / G7 - C A7 / Dm C G7 C /

Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun

You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:32 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Did you  know?
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 09:58:04 +0300
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In article <1856889.xTzubf3RlE@FreeBSD>, Tommy  wrote:


> 
> A perfect example of the never-ending Holocaust misinformation is the oft
> repeated story how American soldiers liberated Nazi death camps; saw the
> gas chambers and the reality of the Final Solution with their own eyes.

At the time when American soldiers liberated camps such as:

- Buchenwald [http://www.remember.org/witness/herder.html], 
- Dachau
[http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/LiberationDay.html],

- Dora-Mittlebau
[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/dora.html], 
- Flossenbürg [http://berlin.usembassy.gov/germany/flossenbuerg.html], and 
- Mauthausen
|http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/mauthfilm.html];
 
with the British liberating:

-  Bergen-Belsen[http://isurvived.org/Bergen-Belsen_liberation.html] and,
-  Neunegamme
[http://www1.ushmm.org:80/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005539],

and the Soviets liberating:

- Auschwitz [http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Auschwitz/Liberation.html], 
- Majdanek [http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Majdanek/Liberation.html],
- Ravensbrück
[http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Visual___Artistic_Resources/Women_of_Ravensbruck/Liberation___Rescue/liberation___rescue.html],
- Sachsenhausen
[http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/SachsenhausenEng.html], and
-  Stutthof [http://www.stutthof.pl/en/main.htm]. 

There was no classification into concentration, detention, forced-labor,
and extermination camps of the type that we have now. The only camps in
the above list where specifically *American* soldiers are claimed to have
seen gas chambers are Dachau
[http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/] and Mauthausen
[http://www.remember.org/camps/mauthausen/mau-gas01.html].

> President Eisenhower?s granddaughter spoke of this at the Holocaust
> Memorial gathering at the U.S. Capitol the other day. Such allegations are
> often repeated in articles and documentaries.

Giving a speech at a commemorative event is not the same as delivering a
scholarly paper at a conference of historians. Manistream historians in
all countries are in agreement that there were gas chambers at two of the
camps liberated by the Americans, specifially Dachau and Mauthausen, as
well as at all five of the camps libreated  y the Sovies, specifically
Auschwitz, Majdanek, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, and Stutthof. These are
not allegations, but rather facts about the camps in question supported by
an abundance of historical evidence.

> 
> Well, what exactly did the Americans see? What did Eisenhower see in
> Buchenwald for instance? Eisenhower saw the same shocking things in life
> that we have all seen in the pervasive, heart-wrenching photos of bodies of
> skin and bone being bulldozed by the allies into mass graves. These photos
> shock and overwhelm the senses, but what do the pictures represent in
> reality?

In his own words:

Source: http://webletter.net/cybrary/Facts.aft.lib.eis.html


Dwight D. Eisenhower on the Camps 

This is what Eisenhower said on pages 408-9 of "Crusade in Europe" 

"The same day [April 12, 1945] I saw my first  horror camp. It was near
the town of  Gotha. I have  never felt able  to describe my emotional 
reactions  when  I  first  came  face  to  face  with indisputable
evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of
decency. Up to that time I had known about it only   generally or through
secondary sources. I am certain, however that I have never at any  other
time  experienced an equal sense  of shock. 

"I visited every nook and cranny of the camp because I felt it my duty to
be in a  position from then on  to testify at first  hand   about these
things in case there ever grew up at home the beliefor assumption  that
`the  stories  of Nazi  brutality  were just propaganda.' Some members of 
the visiting party  were unable to through the ordeal. I not only did so
but as soon as I returned to   Patton's headquarters that evening I sent
communications to both Washington and  London, urging the  two 
governments to  send  instantly to  Germany a random group of newspaper
editors and representative groups from the national legislatures. I felt
that the evidence should be immediately placed before the American and
British publics in a fashion that would leave no room for cynical  
doubt." 

And on page 439 

"Of all these  [Displaced Persons] the Jews  were in  the  most deplorable
condition. For years they had been beaten, starved, and tortured." 

And in "Ike the Soldier: As they knew him"  (G.P. Putnam and Sons, New
York, 1987) Merle Miller quotes Eisenhower speaking on April25th 1945 to
the members of Congress and Journalists who had beenshown Buchenwald the
day before: 

"You saw  only one  camp yesterday.  There are many others Your  
responsibilities, I  believe,  extend into  a  great  field, and informing
the people at home of  things like these atrocities is  one of them...
Nothing is covered up. We have nothing to conceal. The barbarous treatment
these people  received  in  the German concentration camps is almost
unbelievable. I want you to see for yourself and be spokesmen for the
United States." [pages 774-5] 


> 
> No serious historical alleges today that Buchenwald was an extermination
> camp or that any gas chambers operated there. The pictures of those
> emaciated bodies are the result of massive epidemics (primarily typhus)
> that swept through the crowded, underfed and under provisioned German
> camps. Typhus and other diseases cause great loss of fluids and weight. For
> instance, the International Red Cross reported that even more internees
> died under the allied administration of the Buchenwald camp than under the
> former German administration. Even the allies couldn?t get control of the
> epidemics.

Eisenhower in his statement above emphasizes that the Jews had been
singled out for beating, starvation, and torture. This does not square
with your claim that the conditions there were the results of diseases and
supply problems which, of course, would have affected everyone in the camp
equally. 

> 
> Could those camps have been better provisioned by the Germans? Perhaps. But
> remember, in the last months of World War II the allies had successfully
> bombed thousands of bridges, railroads, motorways, as well as
> pharmaceutical factories that produced medicine. The entire country was in
> terrible devastation and chaos. Disease swept through the German camps like
> an inferno.

The well-known photograph of the well-fed looking citizens of neighboring
Weimar being forced by American soldiers to view emaciated corpses at
Buchenwald
[http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/523bg.jpg]
also belies the claim that the area of Germany concerned was dysfunctional
dur to Allied bombings and breakdowns of supply lines.
 
> So what did the American liberators see? They saw terrible, shocking scenes
> of thousands of dead and dying. But, they did not see gas chambers or any
> systematic purposeful extermination of Jews. 

Source: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/Gas%20Chamber/Gas01.html


Mauthausen Gas Chamber 

When the US Third Army liberated the infamous Nazi concentration camp at
Mauthausen on May 5, 1945, they found the bodies of several fully-clothed
dead prisoners in the gas chamber. According to the Museum at Mauthausen,
the       last gassing of prisoners in the main camp was on April 28,
1945,  only a week before the liberation. On April 21, 1945, the Red Cross
began evacuating prisoners out of the camp, but the gassing operation
still continued during the time that the Red Cross representative, Louis
Haeflig, was staying in the camp. A sign in the gas chamber today says
that Ludwig Haider was gassed on April 23, 1945, the same day that a Red
Cross truck took selected prisoners out of the camp, with the permission
of the Commandant. 

An American Prisoner of War, Lt. Jack Taylor, told the liberators that he
had been scheduled to die in the gas chamber four times, but was saved by
the other inmates. His next scheduled date to be gassed was May 6, 1945,
but the       American liberators saved him in the nick of time. 

Pierre-Serge Choumoff, a "Nacht und Nebel" prisoner at the Gusen sub-camp,
wrote in one of his books that the gas chamber at Mauthausen was put into
operation in either March or May of 1942 and that 3,455 prisoners were
gassed in it. He also wrote that the SS guards had removed the gassing
equipment from the chamber on April 29, 1945 the day that Commandant Franz
Ziereis turned the camp over to the       Vienna police. A sign in the gas
chamber confirms that the gassing apparatus was removed on April 29, 1945.




> Now, that doesn?t prove those
> things didn?t exist in other areas of German control, but the fact is the
> American liberators did not see a single, working gas chamber anywhere or
> anyone murdered by poison gas. This is now admitted by the Holocaust
> industry itself, for they now say that all the so called extermination
> camps and centers are now said to be in Eastern, Russian occupied zones,
> such as the Auschwitz.

No. Gas chambers are claied to have existed at Ravensbrück, north of
Berlin
[http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/RavensbruckEng.html], at
Natzweiler in France
[http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Natzweiler/History/GasChamber.html], at
Dachau in Bavaria
[http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/Dachau-article.htm], and at
Mauthausen in Austria
[http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/Gas%20Chamber/Gas01.html].

> This fact alone should make one wonder what?s going on. For is not the
> constant impression given that Americans liberated the ?death camps? and
> Americans saw with their own eyes the ?Holocaust??

You are working with a comic-book-like travesty of history.

It was not only the Americans who liberated the various camps, but the
British and the Soviets as well. The Nazis had more than 10,000 camps and
subcamps, some run by the SP, other by the SS, some transit camps, some
detention camps, some forced labor camps, some womens' camps, some
extermination camps. None of this was clear during the latewinter and
spring of 1945 when these facilities were being liberated. Additionally,
the dedicated extermiantion camps, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka
had been dismantled and plowed under in an attempt to destroy as much
evidence as possible. Only a person ignorant of even the most basic
history of the final months of World War II would claim that the Americans
liberated the death camps. On the other hand, there is no denying the fact
that they witnessed many bits and pieces of the Holocaust. The death
marches are the best documented phase of the Holocaust. Here is an 
account written on May 7, 1945 by a captain of the 5th Medical Battalion, 
5th Infantry  Division of the U.S. Army of his encounter with 118 Jewish
women who had been  deathmarched to Volary, [now] Czech Republic, from the
Schlesiersee camp via the  Helmbrechts camp and then abandoned in a barn
during the final days of the  war: 

"I contacted Captain Wi. at Lohora and drove to Volary [Czechoslovakia] 
where I was told a group of emaciated, eacetic [sic], debili[t]ated women 
were being brought to a school house used as a hospital for treatment, 
>from an old barn, which was a short distance away...At the barn I met 
Capt. Wa. and asked him what he had. He replied that he had a group of 118 
Jewish women and said that it was the most horrible sight he ever laid his 
eyes on. He asked that I go into this barn and look the situation over and 
this I did. The barn was a one story wooden shack. The interior was 
extremely dark and filled with filth of all sorts. My first glance at 
these individuals was one of extreme shock not ever believing that a human 
being can be degraded, can be starved, can be so skinny and even live 
under such circumstances. My view at this time was very cursory in nature. 
What I ultimately did see about this small room was like mice on top of 
one another to[o] weak to as much raise an arm, In addition tio their 
clothes being dirty, worn out, ill fitting, tattered and torn they were 
covered for the most part with human stool which was spread for the most 
part all over the floor. The explanation for this was that these women had 
severe diarrhea with an evacuation about every two to five minutes. They 
were too weak to walk to evacuate their bowels. One thing that surprised 
me when I entered the barn is that I thought they we had a group of old 
men lying around and spread about and would at this time have judged that 
their ages ranged between fifty and seventy years. I was surprised and 
shocked when I asked one of these girls how old she was and she said 
seventeen, when to me she appeared to be no less than fifty. I then 
returned to the Ortslazarett [hospital] in Volary and at this time was 
given complete charge of the evacuation, housing, feeding and treatment of 
these individuals from the old barn to the Ortslazarett and during their 
stay in the Ortslazarett. 
*** 
Upon examining these patients I found that they suffered from the 
following symptoms and diseases; 1. extreme malnutrition 2. vitamin 
deficiency diseases were present in ninety percent of these 118 women 3. 
for the most part all of their feet were edemat[o]us with a four plus 
pitting edema 4. severe frostbite of the toes with dry gangerine [sic] 
present; in one patient in particular this gangrine extents [sic] to the 
legs bi-laterally which will undoubtedly necessitate a bi-lateral 
amputation in the lower one-third of the legs in the very near future. A 
good percentage of these women have severe decubitous ulcers. 
Approximately fifty percent have severe persistent productive coughs with 
underlined pulmonary pathgology. Approximately ten percent of these women 
have been wounded by shell fragments at a place near here from one to two 
weeks ago and have never receioved any treatment for these wounds. The 
wounds at the present time are angry looking, very possibly with localized 
gangerine [sic] in many cases. At the hospital it was noted that many of 
these with diarrhea were associsted with melena and high temperatures. 
During the first few hours after admit[t]ing these patients to the 
hospital two died. Within the next forty-eight hours one more died. At the 
present time many are criticslly ill and offer a poor prognosis." 

Source: A.C., Office of the State Prosecutor, Zentrale Stelle der 
Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistische Verbrechen 
in Ludwigsburg Hof 2 Js 1325/6, Beiakte J. Quoted in D. Goldhagen ,
*Hitler's Willing Executioners*, pgs. 330 - 332. 

See also http://polishjews.org/shoah/shoah1.htm.

> 
> First Lady Lara Bush, as well as Eisenhower?s granddaughter and the rest of
> the speakers promoted a tacit lie. As the American unit flags of liberation
> marched into the room we were told that America liberated the ?death
> camps.? Americans liberated no death camps (what the Holocausters refer to
> as extermination camps), they were all ?liberated? by the Soviets who
> basically provided the rest of the world with what we know (or think we
> know) about the camps. And how much can we really depend on what the
> Bolsheviks claimed about the Germans, for they themselves were the biggest
> mass murderers of all time

There were enough survivors of the camps liberated by the Soviets for it
to be possible to independently verify what the Soviets claimed.

 

> The Presidents of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania will not attend the
> celebration in Moscow in protest of the great lie of Soviet Liberation.

You cannot even process information from as simple a source as a
newspaper. The presidents of Estonia and Lithuania have declined the
invitation to participate in the comemmorative celebrations in Moscow, but
the president of Latvia, Vaira Vike-Freiberga, made it clear many months
ago that she intends to participate:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4169257.stm


Latvia to join Moscow war tribute 

By Steven Paulikas 
BBC Baltic states correspondent 

Ms Vike-Freiberga became Latvian leader after 50 years abroad 

Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga has said she will attend
celebrations in Moscow marking the 60th anniversary of the end of World
War II. 

Critics say the ceremonies legitimise the Soviet Union's occupation of
Latvia at the end of the war. 

In a country that was so often the victim of history, events from the past
still dominate the national agenda. 

Months of passionate debate preceded the president's decision to go to
Moscow on 9 May. 

There, she will join other world leaders to commemorate the Allied victory
over Nazi Germany. 

While 9 May is commemorated in the Soviet - and later Russian - popular
consciousness, in Latvia and the neighbouring Baltic states (Lithuania and
Estonia) the date evokes five decades spent under uninvited Soviet rule. 

By accepting the invitation of her Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, Ms
Vike-Freiberga has chosen to strengthen strained relations between the two
countries. 

She will also appease Latvia's large ethnic Russian minority, which has
complained of government discrimination. 

But to many Latvians, the president's act of solidarity with Russia
betrays their costly struggle for independence. 

Some MPs have already called on Ms Vike-Freiberga to use the occasion as a
platform to express Latvia's version of the past. 





Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:33 EST 2005
Article: 1042690 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 10 Best Things About Being a Revisionist
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 13:50:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 89
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In article
<427f13c3$0$271$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-0805051714410001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...



> > 6) You can claim that cyanide residues found on the walls of alleged gas
> > chambers are the result of fumigation, and that the chambers could not
> > have been  used for gassing people because that could have poisoned the
> > entire camp.
> >
> > 7) You can say that all evidence for the Holocuast was forged,
> > mistranslated, or obtained by torture.
> >
> > 8) You can claim that *Sonderbehandlung* means that the people subjected
> > to it were accommodated by the Nazis in de luxe hotel suites and allowed a
> > diplomat's food rations plus a daily bottle of champagne.
> >
> > 9) You can claim that Great Britain and France, not Nazi Germany, started 
> > WW II.
> >
> > 9.3) You can claim that David Irving only lost his libel suit against
> > Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books Ltd. because the Jews paid off Judge
> > Gray.
> >
> > 9.6) You can claim that the only proof of mass murder is bones: "No bones,
> > no mass murder! No mass murder, no Holocaust!"
> >
> > 10) You can say that the Holocaust never happened, but that the Jews
> > deserved it anyway.
> >
> >>
> >> OK guys I need help here- any thoughts for the rest of the top 10?
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> You remind me of some of the well educated clowns I have had to fire over 
> the years. 
> 
> Academic achievement does not necessarily equate to intelligence.

That's not the point.

Do you subscribe to the view that rooms that could be fumigated with HCN
without poisoning the entire camp could not also be used to kill people
with HCN without poisoning the entire camp?

Do you claim that all evidence for the Holocaust was forged,
mistranslated, or obtained by torture?

Do you claim that *Sonderbehandlung* (as in "Sonderbehandlung durch den
Strang") means de luxe accommodation, a diplomat's food rations, and a
daily bottle of champagne?

Do you claim that Great Britain and France, not Nazi Germany, started 
WW II?

Do you claim that David Irving only lost his libel suit against Deborah
Lipstadt and Penguin Books Ltd. because the Jews paid off Judge Gray?

Do you claim that the only proof of mass murder is bones: "No bones, no
mass murder! No mass murder, no Holocaust!"?

Do you claim that the Holocaust never happened, but that the Jews
deserved it anyway?

All of these claims have been made in AR, nor does it take extraordinary
academic achievement or above-average intelligence to see that they are
specious, illogical, or both.

> Turned up to work for me armed with more degrees than a fucking 
> thermometer, yet they were too stupid to wind a watch.

I don't give a hoot in hell about your problems with your employees. Being
a Holocaust denier requires a considerable amount of arrogance, ignorance,
and deliberate denial of the historical record. If you are going to
propagate denial in this forum, I am certainly going to challenge you on
each and every point.

You have been warned.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:33 EST 2005
Article: 1042699 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide residues micrograms vs milligrams: Leuchter and Rudolf vs Jan Sehn
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 14:44:18 +0300
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In article <1115620082.597383.322700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> What is so difficult to understand about that?
> 
> Are you not aware that air is a gas?
> 
> Anyway all Leuchter did was hack the bits off the wall.  

No he didn't. He gouged out finger-to-fist-sized chunks of wall and did
not mark which surface of his chunk was the surface of the wall, and which
surface was from behind the surface. Given that the cyanide compounds
would form on the wall surfaces, this constitutes a fatal error.

Leuchter took his single "control sample" from a deeply blue-stained part
of the disinfection chamber. However, the walls of the disinfection
chamber show irregular splotches of blue staining. To be fair, he should
have taken samples from parts of the disinfection chamber that were not so
obviously blue stained, since they were also exposed to cyanide. As it is,
taking a single sample from a deeply blue-stained portion of the wall
amounts to stacking the deck and is methodologically incorrect as well as
ethically dishonest.

> It was James
> Roth that did the analysis that showed - by the Krakow Forensic
> Institute's own admission -
> 1000 times the level of cyanide residues in the delousing facilities
> than the "gas chambers"

Not 1,000 times. The highest reading for gas chamber ruins was 7.9 mg/kg.
This is a factor of approximately 130 and thus of the order of magnitude
of 10E2 rather than 10E3 as you are claiming. But that is beside the
point. Leuchter's  figures have no scientific value other than as positive
or negative indices since the samples underwent arbitrary dilution duirng
the sampling procedure as well as a second time when they were being
prepared for analysis. Leuchter is guilty of one of the most flagrant
deceptions that can be made in analytical chemistry: attributing
quantitative significance to figures obtained in conjunction with a purely
qualitative analysis.
 
> We all appear to agree on that now.

The only thing that we can all agree on is that Leuchter found positive
readings for cyanates in 14 of the 31 samples that he presented for
analysis.

We should also agree on the following:

- his choice of a sample was inappropriate: the best sample would have
been from a place known never to have been exposed to cyanide.
Alternatively, he should have taken samples from dark blue-stained, light
blue-staines, and unstained parts of the fuigation chamber wall;

- his method of sampling was inappropriate: he should have taken scraping
samples from the wall surface, rather than bulk samplings including the
wall surface and material from behind it;

- his assumptions about the concentrations of cyanide needed to kill
people as opposed to lice, and about the time-frame such concentrations,
were based on the errpneous assumption that it takes more HCN to kill
people than it does to kill lice, when precisely the opposite is the case;

- his assumptions about the identity of the conditions for the formation
of cyanide compounds were incorrect: the conditions obtaining in a warm
room full of people, with the ambient air containing an increasing amount
of CO2 and water vapor from their breath, would be different from those
obtaining in a cold room full of clothing, with the ambient air being dry
and relatively free of CO2;

- his assumptions about the identity of the short-term conditions for
cyanide retention were incorrect: when humans die, their sphincter muscles
relax, allowing the body to expell feces, urine, semen, menstrual fluid,
unborn foetuses, etc.; in order to keep the gas chamber looking and
smelling innocuous, the men of the *Sonderkommando* had to scrub it down
after each gassing and whitewash the entire facilty frequently to conceal
any signs of foul play; no such considerations came into question for the
fumigation chambers;

- his assumptions about the identity of the longer term conditions for the
retention of cyanide compounds in the two environments, one exposed to the
elements for more than forty years, the other protected from the elements,
were shown to be false by the IFRC team; Leuchter did no experiments to
detrmine the effect of water or sunlight on cyanide compounds;

- his logic is faulty: Leuchter attributes the presence of cyanide in
almost half of the samples taken from gas chamber ruins to fumigations
with HCN, yet he claims that gassing people with HCN, a far less dangerous
procedure than fumigation, could have resulted in an explosion or poisoned
the entire camp; nevertheless, an enclosure that can be fumigated using
HCN can be used to kill people using HCN provided that the proper
precautions are taken;

- he carries unnecessary cultural baggage: Leuchter worked on the
unfounded asumption that a Nazi gas chamber for killing a thousand or more
people would have the same structural attributes and technological
safeguards as an American penal gas chamber; he neglected to consider the
fact that overtly gassing a single person in a penal institution is a
totally different procedure than covertly gassing hundreds of people under
the ruse of giving them a shower or delousing regimen;

- he lacks understanding of how easy it is to kill people with gas: the
recent tragedy at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow shows how easy it is to
convert, this time inadvertantly, a large, normally built room into a
facility where hundreds of people can be killed by manipulating the
content of the ambient air. Note that the agent introduced into the
ambient air was a non-lethal operating room aneasthetic, and that more
than 120 people, all weakened consequent to hunger, thirst, tension, and
sleep deprivation, died as a result of being exposed to it, without the
auditorium constituting any kind of threat to its immediate environment.
Of course, a tragedy on this scale is not necessary to make this point;
local police and fire departments have to deal with thousands of fatal gas
accidents and suicides that take place in normally built rooms,
apartemnts, and garages every year.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:34 EST 2005
Article: 1042708 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.russian
Subject: Re: 100 thousand German woman raped by the Russians in Berlin
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 15:36:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "<>"  wrote:


> 
> >> BTW, what is Baltic by you if not Slavs.
> >
> > The Balts are a completely different group. The Balts entered their
> > present area more than 4,000 years ago, making them one of the oldest
> > groups speaking Indo-European languages in Europe. The Slavs, on the other
> > hand, are of much later origin, first appearing on the scene at the time
> > of the Völkerwanderungen.
> 
> Let me guess the word Slav appears around 4-6 century AD in Byzantine 
> chronicles,
> that means they appeared out of nowhere, all of a sadden, they weren't
> known by any other names by any chance.

Of course they have an older history, but not as a distinct group. The
Scythians, Sarmatians, and other Bronze and Iron Age Indo-European
speaking groups eventually amalgamated to form the arguably first Slavic
culture, the Chernyakhov culture in the first centuries after the
Christian era.  

> 
> >> The Eskimo genes are practically assimilated.
> >
> > What's that got to do with the price of beer in Camberra?
> 
> I don't use bottled horse piss or any other Germanic
> drink.:-)
> 
> Like it or not they aren't any of the following:
> 
> a. Ugro-Altaic

There is no such thing as Ugro-Altaic.

There are Uralic languages, this phylum consisting of two families,
Finno-Ugric and Samoyed, and there are Altaic languages.

According to a now discredited theory the Uralic and Altaic languages
might be distantly related. Peopel who ascribe to this thery use the term
Ural-Altaic.

I know this family well, since I have degree studies and scholarly
publications in the field, in addition to being fluent in Finnish and
estonian, as well as a working knowledge of Sámi, Vepsian, Erzya Morvin,
and Hungarian.

Latvian, the northernmost of the two extant Baltic languages, has a strong
Finnic [= Baltic-Finnic, i.e. the linguistic subfamily to which Finnish,
Estonian, Livonian, Vepsian, Karelian, Izhorian, Vodian, and Olonetsian
belong] substratum. It is not too far from the truth to state that Latvian
is Lithuanian spoken with a strong Estonian accent. Historically, the
northern Latvians are mostly the descendants of originally Finnic speakers
who underwent a language shift to Baltic ceturies ago.

> b. Germanic

The Baltic languages are not Germanic, for they do not show the Grimm's
Law sound changes or other defining attributes of Germanic.

> c. A group of their own that has nothing with Slavs

Their language is a group of their own that shares many innovations with
Slavic while not being Slavic. Baltic is phonologically and structureally
more archaic than Slavic. On the other hand, speakers of Baltic and Slavic
languages have also been bilingual, in addition to which many communities
at the baltic-Slavic interface have been Baltic-speaking one generation
and Slavic speaking the next. Thus, Baltic and Slavic share many features
that differentiate them from the other branches of Indo-European without
necessarily making them conflatable into the same group.

> d. Plain Indo-Europeans

The Balts introduced agriculture into an area formerly inhabited by
Finnic-speaking foragers. Rather than slaughter or subjugate them they
taught them agricukture and intermarried with them. Thus, most Finnic
basic agricultural terminology, e.g. Finnish herne 'pea' (cf. Lithuanian
z^irnis), silta 'bridge' (cf. Lihtuanian tiltas), keli 'driving
conditions' (cf. Lithuanian kelias 'road'), and many words dealing with
female relatives , e.g. Finnish morsian 'bride' (cf. Lithuanian marti),
tytär 'daughter' (cf. Lithuanian dykte ~ dykter-). sisar 'sister' (cf.
Lithuanian sesuo ~ seser-) is borrowed from Baltic.
 
> They might speak a form of language that is older
> to Slavic development, but they are still Slavs
> by race.

What does "Slavs by race mean" mean? Absolutely nothing. Most Balts belong
to one of two subracial types: northern Balts tend to be anthropologically
Eastern Baltic, with a clear overlay of Nordic in the westernmost regions.
Southern Balts tend to have more in common with the so-called Phalic
subrace.

Slavs represent several racial subtypes, nor should it be forgotten that
many peoples who speak Slavic languages today can be shown to have been
speakers of Finno-Ugric or Turkic languages within the recent historical
past. Many people who self-identify as Russians have Ukrainian, Finnish,
Karelian, Mordvin, Chuvash, Udmurt, Kalmuk, or Kazakh ancestry, many
Czechs and Poles have some German ancestry, many Slovaks claim Hungarian
ancestry, many Slovenians have Visigothic ancestry, while most Macedonians
and Bulgarians have Turkic ancestry. 

> Your Germanic supremacist theory where Slavs were just a
> loose pack of tribes with nothing in common,
> noted her Holman.

That would be *Herr* Holman (or in Finnish *herra* Holman).

> Afro-Amerindian or whatever, you just can't shake
> the German out of you.

What are you talking about? So-called race and language exist on two
different planes, and I am just trying to point this out and give a
framework for talking intelligently about both of them. Lanuage is a
better defined concept than race, because anyone can learn any language
and communities have been known to undergo language shifts within the
course of two or three generations. Racial characteristics are a part of
one's genetic makeup and cannot even be changed by surgery (Michael
Jackson notwithstanding). Communities can also undergo a racial shift, but
this requires breeding on a massive scale with people of different races,
as happened, for example in post-conquest Mexico.
 
> Have a good day.

Same to you.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:34 EST 2005
Article: 1042738 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-monga!easynet.net!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide residues micrograms vs milligrams: Leuchter and Rudolf vs Jan Sehn
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:12:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 119
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In article <1115620082.597383.322700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> What is so difficult to understand about that?
> 
> Are you not aware that air is a gas?
> 
> Anyway all Leuchter did was hack the bits off the wall.  

No he didn't. He gouged out finger-to-fist-sized chunks of wall and did
not mark which surface of his chunk was the surface of the wall, and which
surface was from behind the surface. Given that the cyanide compounds
would form on the wall surfaces, this constitutes a fatal error.

Leuchter took his single "control sample" from a deeply blue-stained part
of the disinfection chamber. However, the walls of the disinfection
chamber show irregular splotches of blue staining. To be fair, he should
have taken samples from parts of the disinfection chamber that were not so
obviously blue stained, since they were also exposed to cyanide. As it is,
taking a single sample from a deeply blue-stained portion of the wall
amounts to stacking the deck and is methodologically incorrect as well as
ethically dishonest.

> It was James
> Roth that did the analysis that showed - by the Krakow Forensic
> Institute's own admission -
> 1000 times the level of cyanide residues in the delousing facilities
> than the "gas chambers"

Not 1,000 times. The highest reading for gas chamber ruins was 7.9 mg/kg.
This is a factor of approximately 130 and thus of the order of magnitude
of 10E2 rather than 10E3 as you are claiming. But that is beside the
point. Leuchter's  figures have no scientific value other than as positive
or negative indices since the samples underwent arbitrary dilution during
the sampling procedure as well as a second time when they were being
prepared for analysis. Leuchter is guilty of one of the most flagrant
deceptions that can be made in analytical chemistry: attributing
quantitative significance to figures obtained in conjunction with a purely
qualitative analysis.
 
> We all appear to agree on that now.

The only thing that we can all agree on is that Leuchter found positive
readings for cyanates in 14 of the 31 samples that he presented for
analysis.

We should also agree on the following:

- his choice of a control sample was inappropriate: the best control
sample would have been from a place known never to have been exposed to
cyanide.
Alternatively, he should have taken control samples from dark
blue-stained, light blue-stained, and unstained parts of the fumigation
chamber wall;

- his method of sampling was inappropriate: he should have taken scraping
samples from the wall surface, rather than bulk samples including the
wall surface and material from behind it;

- his assumptions about the concentrations of cyanide needed to kill
people as opposed to lice, and about the time-frame such concentrations,
were based on the erroneous assumption that it takes more HCN to kill
people than it does to kill lice, when precisely the opposite is the case;

- his assumptions about the identity of the conditions for the formation
of cyanide compounds were incorrect: the conditions obtaining in a warm
room full of people, with the ambient air containing an increasing amount
of CO2 and water vapor from their breath, would be different from those
obtaining in a cold room full of clothing, with the ambient air being dry
and relatively free of CO2;

- his assumptions about the identity of the short-term conditions for
cyanide retention were incorrect: when humans die, their sphincter muscles
relax, allowing the body to expell feces, urine, semen, menstrual fluid,
unborn foetuses, etc.; in order to keep the gas chamber looking and
smelling innocuous, the men of the *Sonderkommando* had to scrub it down
after each gassing and whitewash the entire facilty frequently to conceal
any signs of foul play; no such considerations came into question for the
fumigation chambers;

- his assumptions about the identity of the longer term conditions for the
retention of cyanide compounds in the two environments, one exposed to the
elements for more than forty years, the other protected from the elements,
were shown to be false by the IFRC team; Leuchter did no experiments to
determine the effect of water or sunlight on the cyanide compounds formed
on the various construction materials;

- his logic is faulty: Leuchter attributes the presence of cyanide in
almost half of the samples taken from gas chamber ruins to fumigations
with HCN, yet he claims that gassing people with HCN, a far less dangerous
procedure than fumigation, could have resulted in an explosion or poisoned
the entire camp; nevertheless, an enclosure that can be fumigated using
HCN can be used to kill people using HCN provided that the proper
precautions are taken;

- he carries unnecessary cultural baggage: Leuchter worked on the
unfounded asumption that a Nazi gas chamber for killing a thousand or more
people would have the same structural attributes and technological
safeguards as an American penal gas chamber; he neglected to consider the
fact that overtly gassing a single person in a penal institution is a
totally different procedure than covertly gassing hundreds of people under
the ruse of giving them a shower or delousing regimen;

- he lacks understanding of how easy it is to kill people with gas: the
recent tragedy at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow shows how easy it is to
convert, this time inadvertantly, a large, normally built room into a
facility where hundreds of people can be killed by manipulating the
content of the ambient air. Note that the agent introduced into the
ambient air was a non-lethal operating room aneasthetic, and that more
than 120 people, all weakened consequent to hunger, thirst, tension, and
sleep deprivation, died as a result of being exposed to it, without the
auditorium constituting any kind of threat to its immediate environment.
Of course, a tragedy on this scale is not necessary to make this point;
local police and fire departments have to deal with thousands of fatal gas
accidents and suicides that take place in normally built rooms,
apartments, and garages every year.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:35 EST 2005
Article: 1042827 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Did you  know?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:09:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 405
Message-ID: 
References:   <1856889.xTzubf3RlE@FreeBSD>  <427f77ff$1@quokka.wn.com.au>
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Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1042827 soc.culture.israel:1197350 alt.conspiracy:1071845

In article <427f77ff$1@quokka.wn.com.au>, Henry  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> Dear Eugene...
> 
> Sometimes I'm reading here some stories and this time you got me 
> interested in the subject of gas chambers.
> 
> I took some time to check links you have kindly supplied and I was 
> trying to find these unfamous gas chambers.
> 
> Under one link I have found a very interesting text:
> 
> "The Mauthausen gas chamber was disguised as a fully functional shower 
> room. This photo shows 3 of the 16 real showerheads on the ceiling. All 
> of the "gassing apparatus" was removed by the SS guards when they left 
> the camp before the American liberators arrived; *today there is nothing 
> in this room which indicates that it was anything more than an ordinary 
> shower room*.All four of the major Nazi concentration camps in the 
> Greater German Reich (Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald and Mauthausen) 
> had shower rooms in the crematoria buildings. Only the one at Buchenwald 
> was used as a real shower room; the other three were homicidal gas 
> chambers disguised as shower rooms."
> 
> http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/Gas%20Chamber/Photo16.html
> 
> 
> *today there is nothing in this room which indicates that it was 
> anything more than an ordinary shower room*
> 

> 
> 
> Now I have some serious doubts...

As is your right. Converting a shower room to a gas chamber and then back
to a shower room is really not all that difficult. See the pictures of the
gas chamber at the Bernburg euthanasia faciltity at
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/BERN.htm. 

As to the process of converting a shower room into a gas chamber, consider
SS-Oberführer Viktor Brack's testimony at Nuremberg:

Source: http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/01/NMT01-T880.htm



Q. Witness, I think you said yesterday afternoon that these six euthanasia
stations were located at Bernburg, Brandenburg, Hadamar, Hartheim,
Grafeneck, and Sonnenstein, is that correct? 

A. Yes. That is correct. 

Q. When were the gas chambers at these euthanasia stations built? 

A. When the institutions were set up as euthanasia institutions. 

Q. Can you remember the approximate dates? 

A. No. I cannot remember the dates. I just know the years when the
institutions became euthanasia institutions ‹ approximately. I know that
Grafeneck and Brandenburg were the first institutions to become euthanasia
institutions. It began at the end of 1939 at the earliest, the beginning
of 1940 at the latest. Sonnenstein and Hartheim were set up in the early
summer 1940. In the early summer or spring. The institution at Bernburg
was established in the fall or winter of 1940, Hadamar, in the winter or
spring of 1941. This is as accurate as I can give it. 

Q. You said the winter or spring of 1941. Do you mean the winter of 1940
or the spring of 1941? You said the winter or spring of 1941. 

A. If I say winter '41, I mean January '41, but it might have been March
too, I don't know. 

Q. And you think that Hadamar was the last one that was set up? 

A. I am quite certain that Hadamar was the last one. 

Q. Now, of what materials were these gas chambers built? Were they movable
gas chambers, very much like the low-pressure chambers that Professor Dr.
Ruff talked about, or were they something that was built permanently into
the camp or installation? 

A. No special gas chamber was built. A room suitable in the hospital was
used, a room of necessity attached to the reception ward and to the room
where the insane persons were kept. This room was made into a gas chamber.
It was sealed, given special doors and windows, and then a few meters of
gas piping were laid, or some kind of piping with holes in it. Outside
this room there was a container, a compressed gas container with the
necessary apparatus, that is a pressure gauge, etc. 

Q. Now what department had the responsibility for constructing or building
these gas chambers, what department of the Party or of the government? 

A. No office of the Party. I don't understand the question. 

Q. Somebody had to build these chambers. Who gave the orders and who had
the responsibility of building them, was that your department? 

A. I assume the orders were given by the head of the institution, but I
don't know who actually did give the orders. 

Q. In other words, were these chambers not built according to some
specifications, plans and specifications? 

A. I can't imagine that, every chamber was different. I saw several of them. 

Q. Do you know what department gave the order for having the chambers
built? Was that your department under Bouhler! 

A. No. It was Bouhler himself. 

Q. And he gave the order to the various heads of institutions to install
this chamber, is that correct? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, how would the heads of each of these institutions know how to
install a gas chamber unless there were certain plans and specifications
given to them? 

A. I never saw any such plan. I don't know of any. 

Q. Would you know how to go out and build a gas chamber unless some
engineer or planner had told you? Certainly I wouldn't. 

A. I don't know whether I would either. Presumably he called in an engineer. 

Q. That's what I'm trying to say. What engineer or group of engineers was
responsible for seeing that these gas chambers were built so that they
would do the job they were supposed to do? 

A. There was certainly no group of engineers. I presume there was somebody
at the institutions who had enough technical ability to do it. I don't
know. 

Q. Then, so far as you know, someone at one of these institutions would be
told by Bouhler to construct a gas chamber and he would call ‹ the head of
the institution then would call on someone, you don't know whom, to go out
and build the chamber? Is that correct? 

A. That is how I imagine it. 

Q. Well, wouldn't it make a considerable difference whether the chamber
was to be constructed for euthanasia by carbon monoxide or by some other
means? Wouldn't there have to be some technical information available to
the head of the institution so that he could give directions to his
mechanic to build the thing to do the thing it was supposed to do? 

A. I must say honestly I really don't know anything about that. I can't judge. 

Q. Do you know whether or not any department of the government, under
Bouhler, or under Brandt, or under anybody else, was responsible for
seeing that the gas apparatus was installed properly? 

A. I don't know, but I don't believe so because I would probably have
heard of it. 

Q. How large were these gas chambers? 

A. They were of different sizes. It was simply an adjoining room. I can't
remember whether they were 4 x 5 meters, or 5 x 6 meters. Simply normal
sized rooms, but I can't tell you the exact size. It was too long ago. I
can't remember. 

Q. Were they as large as this courtroom? 

A. No. They were just normal rooms. 

Q. Well, a man of your intelligence must have some idea about the size of
these rooms. The assertion "normal size" doesn't mean anything in
particular. 

A. By that I mean the size of the normal room in a normal house. I didn't
mean an assembly room or a cell either. I meant a room, but I can't tell
you the exact size because I really don't know it. It might have been 4 x
5 meters, or 5 x 6 meters, or 31/2 x 41/2, but I really don't know. I
didn't pay much attention to it. 

Q. Have you ever visited a concentration camp or a military camp of any kind? 

A. I visited a concentration camp, and I was once in a military camp as a
soldier. 

Q. Have you ever seen a shower room or shower bath built into a camp of
that kind where the inmates of concentration camps, or where soldiers in a
military barracks, can take showers? 

A. Yes, I have. In my own barracks. 

Q. And would you say that this euthanasia room at the various institutions
was about that dimension? 

A. I think it was much smaller. 

Q. Well, perhaps we can get at it this way. I thought perhaps you knew
something about the mechanical construction that I supposed everybody knew
something about. This room of yours that you talk about, how many people
would it accommodate? 

A. Yesterday I said that according to my estimate it might have been
twenty-five or thirty people. 

Q. And that is still your estimate today? I remember yesterday that you
said that, and that is still your estimate today, it could comfortably
take care of twenty-five or thirty people? 

A. Yes. That's my estimate. 

Q. Now, the carbon monoxide gas that was used for the purpose of
euthanasia, where did it come from? I know you said yesterday that it came
out of tubes very much like oxygen came in, but where did the tubes come
from? Do you know? 

A. I don't know. They were the normal steel containers which can be seen
everywhere. 

Q. Do you know how they reached the camp? 

A. That I don't know. 

Q. Do you know whether any department of the government was responsible
for furnishing the gas to the camp? 

A. No. They were probably bought. 

Q. You think then that perhaps the superintendent of the institution, if
he wanted some carbon monoxide gas, would just walk downtown and walk into
a store and buy a steel tube of it and put it under his arm and carry it
on back to the camp; pay for it out of his pocket? 

A. No, not out of his own pocket but through the institution. The
institutions bought them, I mean. 

Q. Do you know from what sources the institution bought it? 

A. Yes. All the funds came from the Reich Ministry of the Interior. They
were advanced by the Party treasurer. 

Q. Well, now, at that time, wasn't virtually everything in Germany of a
critical nature on some sort of priority? Do you understand what I mean? 

A. No. 

Q. Would not the diversion of this carbon monoxide in tubes to the various
institutions have to be given a priority rating and approved by someone or
by some department in the government and thus be made available to the
hospitals? Don't you understand what I mean? 

A. Yes, I understand. I have no idea, but I don't believe so. Why? 

Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths were given? 

A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were brought in
and the bodies were carried into an adjoining room. There the doctor
examined them to determine whether they were dead. 

Q. Then what happened to the bodies? 

A. When the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for cremation
and then they were cremated. 

Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were dead, they
were then cremated? Is that correct? 

A. Yes. 

Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions? 

A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions. 

Q. Do you know whether or not ‹ what department or agency, either under
the government, that is, the Reich government, or under the superintendent
of the various institutions, was responsible for this detail of cremation?


A. I don't understand. Bouhler ordered the cremation. Bouhler ordered, on
principle, that the bodies were to be cremated after death. There was no
office for that. 

Q. Was there any report made to anyone of the fact that certain people,
who had been selected for euthanasia had finally arrived at these
institutions, had actually been accorded the privilege of mercy deaths and
then had been cremated? 

A. No. I know nothing about that. 

Q. No records were kept at all? 

A. Oh, I thought you said reports. Now you mean records? 

Q. I don't care what you call it. There must have been a report or record
of some kind kept of these people. Was there? 

A. Yes, of course. Not only the case histories, but the personal data of
the individual patients were collected at the euthanasia institution and
there the death records were added and whatever else was available. In my
direct examination I pointed out that there were announcements to the
agencies concerned, for example, the guardianship court. All these files
were sent to Tiergartenstrasse 4. 

Q. They were finally sent to Tiergartenstrasse 4? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Isn't it true that only in that way could an accurate record or report
of this program be made? 

A. I didn't understand. Whether this fact created accurate records about
the people, or whether records were kept? 

Q. Records were kept, were they not, of this entire transaction of each
individual from the time he was expertized? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Until finally he was cremated? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And those records were filed with T-4? 

A. Yes. They were kept there. 

Q. Now, I believe you said that these euthanasia chambers were built to
resemble shower rooms? 

A. Yes. That's how I remember it. 

Q. And the only people that were accorded euthanasia were people who were
incurably insane, I think you said? 

A. Yes. 

Q. These were people who, as you put it, on ethical grounds did not have
the mental capacity either to consent or to resist the decision to grant
them euthanasia, and that consequently as you viewed it, it was a humane
procedure to accord them a mercy death; is that correct, did I understand
you correctly? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, were these people, the ones whom you saw, so insane as not to
understand where they were or what was going on around them? 

A. I can only say that of course I am not a doctor and therefore not in a
position to judge the condition of such patients, but when I was at such
institutions I myself saw that the patients, in as far as they were able
to walk, went into these chambers or rooms where they were told to go
without any objection and sat down on the benches or lay down and were
quite quiet. 

I don't know to what extent they realized where they were. I do know,
however, that they were not in any way worried, but perfectly calm.
Bouhler had ordered that the doctors were to arrange things so that the
patients would not realize what was being done to them. 

Q. And that was the reason that the gas chambers were constructed to
resemble shower rooms, I suppose? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower bath? 

A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they no doubt thought that. 

Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their clothes on,
or were they nude? 

A. No. They were nude. 

Q. In every case? 

A. Whenever I saw them, yes. 

Q. And you said, I believe, yesterday that you witnessed perhaps some 10
to 12, or 15, or 20 occasions when groups were accorded mercy deaths? 

A. No. I said that I visited each of the institutions, with the exception
of Hadamar, at least once, perhaps twice. 

Q. And on each occasion did you witness the according of a mercy death to
a group? 

A. Yes. 




> 
> BTW. You didn't mentioned at all victims of Stalin!

Why should I have? We are talking about the victims of Hitler. I don't
think that anybody seriously disputes the number of Stalin's victims, nor
did the USSR, murderous a state that it was, kill people in an
industrialized manner.

> Why?

Read the two articles posted to AR today "Comparing Hitler and Stalin" and
"Why Hitler is still Villain No. 1".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:36 EST 2005
Article: 1042830 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!newsfeed.yul.equant.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauthausen Survivors
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:29:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References: 
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery2/74456.htm
> 
> Look at the photo, do these survivors at Mauthausen look starved? Seems, 
> they ready for a date with that Yankee solder.
> Sex for chocolate, how nice!

Persze, hogy jó!

What's your point? Do you deny that there was a concentration camp at
Mauthausen? Do you deny that the Americans liberated it? Do you not
understand that some of the detainees at Mauthausen had been there for
months and were emaciated, while others had been there for only weeks or
days and were not emaciated?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:36 EST 2005
Article: 1042848 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tdcnorge.no!uninett.no!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide residues micrograms vs milligrams: Leuchter and Rudolf vs Jan Sehn
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:35:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <1115532108.906079.170510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <9ndt71lt5bh8lr7jqho3rjk4nruq3nreak@4ax.com> <1115619189.465890.278980@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  <1115620082.597383.322700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  <1180f6u6mf13v2b@corp.supernews.com> <1115704779.911737.156280@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
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In article <1115704779.911737.156280@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:


> 
> To pretend that the there was no other cyanide except in the form of
> ions is simply dishonest - unless James Roth is a closet Nazi and
> salted his samples.
> 
> It is simply and obviously attempting to deceive.

As obvious as Leuchter's taking a single "control" sample from a deeply
blue stained splotch in a fumigation chamber, the walls of which had
darkly stained, lightly stained, and unstained portions?

As obvious as Leuchter's referring to the 14 out of 31 samples that tested
positive for exposure to cyanide as "hardly any" and "the few"?

As obvious as Leuchter's claim that the facilities the ruins of which he
examined could be fumigated with Zyklon-B, but that using Zyklon-B to kill
people in them meant the risk of an explosion or of poisoning the entire
camp?

As obvious as Leuchter's assumption that the conditions obtaining when the
two types of environments were exposed to cyanide, as well as the
conditions to which they were exposed between 1945 and the time the
samples were taken did not have to be taken into account when evaluating
the samples?

As obvious as Leuchter's presentation of the results of a qualitative
analysis as figures with quantitative significance?

As obvious as Leuchter's unwarranted assumption that a covert facility for
gassing a thousand people at a time had to have the same technical,
engineering, and backup systems that an overt American penal execution gas
chamber has?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:36 EST 2005
Article: 1042863 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.glorb.com!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide residues micrograms vs milligrams: Leuchter and Rudolf vs Jan Sehn
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:05:58 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 87
Message-ID: 
References: <1115532108.906079.170510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <9ndt71lt5bh8lr7jqho3rjk4nruq3nreak@4ax.com> <1115619189.465890.278980@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  <1115620082.597383.322700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  <1180f6u6mf13v2b@corp.supernews.com>
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In article <1180f6u6mf13v2b@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote: in message
> news:holman-0905051444180001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...


> 
> > - he carries unnecessary cultural baggage: Leuchter worked on the
> > unfounded asumption that a Nazi gas chamber for killing a thousand or more
> > people would have the same structural attributes and technological
> > safeguards as an American penal gas chamber; he neglected to consider the
> > fact that overtly gassing a single person in a penal institution is a
> > totally different procedure than covertly gassing hundreds of people under
> > the ruse of giving them a shower or delousing regimen;
> >
> Leuchter is absolutely correct. A homicidal gas chamber for hundreds of
> thousands of people with 1000 to 2000 people at a time would look very
> similar to a US gas chamber, only larger, designed by German architects and
> engineers to accustomed quality.

Why? Such a gas chamber would have the problem of *looking* like a gas
chamber, for which reason the logistics of herding more than 1,000 people
into it would be overwhelming. Gassing large numbers of people is not
simply a matter of technology, convincing them to enter the gas chamber
and remain peaceful once inside of it is at least as important as the
actual procedure. A high-tech engineering marvel is *not* the way to go if
you are implementing covert mass gassings and are vastly outnumbered by
your intended victims.

> Insteadof a semi-underground morgue, with insertion holes nobody ever found
> and some soviet/Polish dreamed up ramshackle insertion columns

The holes are there, at least in the ruins of Krema II. And what is so
difficult about figuring out a way to introdice the contents of a few
canisters of Zyklon-B to the gas chambers. Apartments and train cars that
are fumigated with Zyklon-B lack insertion holes or columns, but nobody
denies that they can be fumigated with the stuff.

> 
> > - he lacks understanding of how easy it is to kill people with gas: the
> > recent tragedy at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow shows how easy it is to
> > convert, this time inadvertantly, a large, normally built room into a
> > facility where hundreds of people can be killed by manipulating the
> > content of the ambient air. Note that the agent introduced into the
> > ambient air was a non-lethal operating room aneasthetic, and that more
> > than 120 people, all weakened consequent to hunger, thirst, tension, and
> > sleep deprivation, died as a result of being exposed to it, without the
> > auditorium constituting any kind of threat to its immediate environment.
> > Of course, a tragedy on this scale is not necessary to make this point;
> > local police and fire departments have to deal with thousands of fatal gas
> > accidents and suicides that take place in normally built rooms,
> > apartemnts, and garages every year.
> >
> To compare an accident with an alleged government planned and organized
> homicidal gassing of a million people is rediculous.

No it isn't. A gassing accident is the consequence of a known and easily
replicable set of parameters. Consequently, the simplest methodology to
implement a mass gassing would be to replicate the conditions known to
have obtained during a mass gassing accident. Far from being ridiculous, a
comparison of the Dubrovka Theater gassing accident to the non-technical
solutions for mass gassing used by the Nazis shows that the technical
problem of killing people by the hundreds or thousands is quite simple
once you solve the logistical problem of getting them into the sturdily
built enclosure, the ambient air of which is to be manipulated.
Introducing a fast acting lethal agent to the ambient air in  such an
enclosure, waiting until it has done its work, and then allowing it to
dissipate is frightening in its simplicity. You know as well as I do that
if the contents of a few cansisters of Zyklon-B, rather than a non-lethal
operating room opiate, had been introduced to the ambient air in the
auditiorium of the Dubrovka Theater, all 800-odd people in the room would
have died within the space of a few minutes. This accident in all of its
tragic simplicity hows how easily an effective mass execution gas chamber
can be improvised. Once the parameters are known, the procedure can be
repeated as often as needed. There is nothing ridiculous in pointing this
out.

Why should a complex engineering solution be applied to a problem that can
be dealt with far more simply using a non-technical methodology? The Nazis
would have been fools to waste scarce resources on an engineering marvel
when replicating the conditions obtaining in a fatal gassing accident is
so much simpler, both logistically and procedurally. It would also leave
far less evidence of criminal intent.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:37 EST 2005
Article: 1042864 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauthausen Survivors
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:23:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References:   
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-1005050929490001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> > In article , "Szaki"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery2/74456.htm
> >>
> >> Look at the photo, do these survivors at Mauthausen look starved? Seems,
> >> they ready for a date with that Yankee solder.
> >> Sex for chocolate, how nice!
> >
> > Persze, hogy jó!
> >
> > What's your point? Do you deny that there was a concentration camp at
> > Mauthausen? Do you deny that the Americans liberated it? Do you not
> > understand that some of the detainees at Mauthausen had been there for
> > months and were emaciated, while others had been there for only weeks or
> > days and were not emaciated?

> 
> Right! They were transported to the camp by the Germans a day before the 
> yanks arrived.

Theoretically, why not? During the days before the yanks arrived it was
business as usual at the camp.

> Your brain is in your black ass Holman?

At least I *have* a brain. 



From: "Joe Bruno" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: About the Funniest thing I've Seen on this NG

Message-ID: <1115599975.050173.303430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>


Szaki trying to educate us. ROTFL.

Note the complete lack of evidence supporting any of his claims.


Neked a segged és az agyad mindegy.

/EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:37 EST 2005
Article: 1042976 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Western governments knew about the Holocaust in real time
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:59:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 14
Message-ID: 
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Richard Breitman's  book  *Official Secrets. What the Nazis planned, What
the British and Americans knew* [for an excerpt and a review, see
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/breitman-secrets.html] uses the
content of coded German police messages deciphered by British intelligence
to demonstrate clearly that London and Washington were aware of the mass
murders of the Jews that were being carried out on Germany's eastern front
in real time. The code messages were sent by the units of the order police
(Ordungspolizei) who were assisting the Einsatzgruppen. Breitman
demonstrates convincingly that all the previously prevented arguments that
the governments of the Western powers had insufficient information about
the mass destruction of the Jews are specious.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:37 EST 2005
Article: 1043064 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Jews
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:10:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <96af71ls9odq7se9v9kb52q5l7rhakhih4@4ax.com> <1115159801.496340.180840@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1115180541.528039.297590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <117hs47no8nm8ad@corp.supernews.com> <1115230899.570253.175950@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1115504392.486368.92810@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1115658335.301717.77230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
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Xref: sn-us soc.culture.jewish:1407951 soc.culture.usa:1687420 soc.culture.canada:500612 alt.revisionism:1043064

In article <1115658335.301717.77230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "Joe
Bruno"  wrote:



> >    The mean the one who disowned his father because he served
> >    in the German Army during WW2. Rather a traitor to his famiy
> >    than upsete the yids.
 
> Arnold Schwartzenegger is Austrian, not German.

So was Hitler.

Nevertheless, Austria was absorbed into Germany in 1938 and occupied by
the Allies between 1945 and 1955, when its sovereignty was regained.
Schwartzenegger is Austrian by birth and citizenship, but his father
served in the *Wehrmacht*, the army of the *Deutsches Reich*, Nazi
Germany, during WW II.

According to the Nazis, who looked at the world through an ethnic prism,
Austria was an artificial state created to weaken the German *Volk* by
dividing it. One of the primary purposes of Hitler's *Deutsches Reich* was
to unite all people of German ethnicity under one flag and further the
cause of Germanness over all other nations.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:37 EST 2005
Article: 1043072 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How one lot of photos entered into the historical canon.
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:38:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 69
Message-ID: 
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In article <1115871645.843843.89400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> "These photographs were preserved through the efforts of a Latvian Jew
> named David Zivcon, who worked as an electrician in the offices of the
> SD in Liepaja. Some weeks or months after the action in Skede, Zivcon
> was told to repair the electrical wiring in Strott's apartment. No one
> else was present while Zivcon worked. In a half-open drawer he noticed
> four rolls of film which he examined and recognized as a massacre of
> Liepajan Jews. Zivcon smuggled them out, got a friend to make copies
> and then returned the originals by faking a power outage as a pretext
> for reentering Strott's apartment. Zivcon then placed the photo prints
> in a metal box and buried them in a horse stable. After the liberation
> he retrieved the photographs and turned them over to Soviet military
> intelligence. These pictures were subsequently put into evidence at the
> Nuremberg War Crimes Trials."
> 
> What a hero!

Correct. The Nazis went to great efforts to destroy evidence of their
crimes against humanity. Nevertheless, the courage of David Zivcon ensured
that a photographic records would be preserved as a counterevidence for
those who would claim that it never happened.

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/2nd_subcomission.htm


The Progress Report of Latvia's History Commission: Crimes against
Humanity Committed in the  Territory of Latvia from 1940 to 1956 during
the Occupations of the Soviet Union and National Socialist Germany 
Second Sub-Commission: Holocaust in the Territory of Latvia during
Nazi         Occupation 1941-1945 

The total annihilation of Jews, known as the Holocaust, in
Nazi-occupied         Latvia was the worst crime committed in Latvian
territory in the         twentieth century.  It is stands out because of
the indescribable sadism with which it was committed and the huge number
of victims.  

Historical Background and Summary  

 The decision to annihilate the Jews was made by German occupation        
authorities. Latvia was not a sovereign state, and there were no Latvian
institutions in existence that could have influenced the decision of the
occupation authorities one way or another.  Latvian civil society had been
inflicted severe wounds by the brutal terror of the preceding Soviet
occupation (17 June, 1940­end of June, 1941); it  encountered German
occupation physically and morally weakened.  

The number of Holocaust victims comprises the largest single group of
people who lost their lives because of occupation regimes from June 1940,
the destruction of independence, to May 1945, the end of the war.  More
than 70,000 Latvian Jews and more than 20,000 Jews brought to Latvia from
1941 to 1944 from other occupied countries of Europe (Austria,  the
annexed parts of Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Lithuania) and Germany proper
were killed.  




The background of the Liepaja photographs and their significance for
Holocaust history is discussed at
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/month_in_holocaust/december/decenber_data_images/images_4.html.

Links to photographs and a film of the massacre taken by the Nazis can be
found at http://www.rumbula.org/liepaja_holocaust_jewish.htm .

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:37 EST 2005
Article: 1043073 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,de.soc.politik.misc
Subject: Re: Why did hitler march into holland ? Warum ist hitler in holland einmarchiert
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:45:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 11
Message-ID: 
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> What was the reason for hitler to march into holland ? Warum ist Hitler in
> Holland einmarchiert

Because he had the opportunity to do it before the British did. Weil er
die Gelegenheit dazu hatte, ehe die Briten eine solche hatten.

Regards/Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:38 EST 2005
Article: 1043090 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How one lot of photos entered into the historical canon.
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:03:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 42
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In article <1186m7d81tjg74d@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-1205051338410001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> What happened to the remains of the victims of these massacres? The
> massgraves of all these people seem to have disaapeared:
> 
> In the summer of 1996, the city of Marijampol in Latvia 

Ahem. Marijampol is in Lithuania, Latvia's southern neighbor.

> decided to erect a
> memorial in memory of the tens of thousands of Jews who were allegedly
> murdered by the Einsatzgruppen. In order to erect it at the proper place, an
> attempt was made to locate the exact position of the mass graves.
> Excavations were therefore carried out at those locations which were
> identified by witnesses, but - oh wonder - not a single trace of any mass
> graves could be found.

The Germans exhumed many mass graves and cremated their contents during
the summer of 1943 specifically for the purpose of destroyiung evidence.

> 
> - Lietuvos Rytas (Latvian newspaper), August 21, 1996

The word "Lietuvos" is Lithuanian and means "of Lithuania".

> 
> Further excavations in the vicinity of the alleged locations of mass murder
> did not result in anything else but untouched virgin soil.

So you are claiming that the Ereignismeldungen of the Einsatzkommandos and
collective memory of thousands of compatriots being slaughtered are all
products of delusion? And what about the times when collective memory of
mass murder and the contents of mass graves coincie, as at Serniki and
Ustinovka [http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/stories/s124137.htm]?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:38 EST 2005
Article: 1043097 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eugene Holman - holocau$t promotion demagogue at work
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:58:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 69
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In article <4283489e_5@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:


> 
> note how Holman creates the "storyline":
> alleged massacre at Liepaja is used as overture for "70,000 Latvian Jews 
> and more than 20,000 Jews brought to Latvia" and that in turn is used as
> evidence for holocau$t [cca. 6 000 000 killed jews].

Correct. The Liepaja massacres have to be put into context. I used *The
Progress Report of Latvia's History Commission: Crimes against Humanity
Committed in the  Territory of Latvia from 1940 to 1956 during the
Occupations of the Soviet Union and National Socialist Germany Second
Sub-Commission: Holocaust in the Territory of Latvia during Nazi
Occupation 1941-1945* to provide this necessary context. Latvia is not a
country that comes to the mind of most readers when discussing the
Holocaust, so I felt obliged to provide this background information. 
 
> 1.the fact is that even if there really was a massacre at Liepaja it 
> would be *NOT* evidence about killing of 70,000+20,000 jews, 

Almost 3,000 local Jews were massacred at Liepaja between December 15 and
17, 1941. They are part of the 70,000 Latvian Jews murdered by the Nazis
as well as of the 90,000 Jews murdered by the Nazis in Latvia between 1941
and 1944.

> and if 
> there was
> a massacre of 70,000+20,000 jews it wouldn't be a proof about killing of 
> 6 000 000 of jews [so called holocau$t].

It adds up: 3,000 Jews at Liepaja + 25,000 at Rumbula + 33,000 at Babi
Yar, + approx. 1,500,000 at Auschwitz + approx. 135,000 by Einsatzgruppe A
in Ostland and Belarussia...  Have you never heard the expression many
small streams a mighty river make?

 
> 2. what takes the naive propaganda story about some jew Zivcon who
> found by accident film material about a massacre of jews at Liepaja,
> once again [as usual in holocau$t] none ever used the film material to 
> identify the location of the massacre, exhume and forensically 
> investigate the site - and prove the number of victims.

The massacre was also recorded on film, and the photographs match the
location of the film. The police and military assignments and other
documents generated by this incident, as well as the testimony of
perpetrators, provide a detailed picture of what went on. You can't kill
3,000 people in a small city like Liepaja without news of it getting out.

> holocau$t is a fraud.

No. You are the fraud. You do not accept *anything* as evidence, whether
it is cinematographic, photographic, documental, testimonial, or forensic.
You seem to think that eliminating people by the thousands is not going to
generate a lot of evidence of various types. You probably even deny that
the Nazis occupied Latvia and the other two Baltic countries, and set up a
governmental structure that implemented the same policies that were being
impelemented elsewhere in Hitler's Reich, these including the physical
elimination of those Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables" who could not
first be exploited for slave labor. You also seem to think that if a
criminal is successful in destroying the evidence of his crimes, then it
cannot be proven that the crimes were committed. Well, you can't commit
90,000 murders within the course of slightly more than three years, as the
Nazis did in Latvia, and not leave all kinds of indirect evidence of what
you have done.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:38 EST 2005
Article: 1043101 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How one lot of photos entered into the historical canon.
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:20:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 82
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References: <1115871645.843843.89400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  <1186m7d81tjg74d@corp.supernews.com>  <428368da_5@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>
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In article <428368da_5@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> 
> all that was found were massgraves of dozens of victims - and that
> can be hardly called a proof of 1 - 1 500 000 of exterminated jews.

The mass grave at Serniki contained about 550 bodies, according to Prof.
Wright. That is hardly "dozens".


> Besides even if someone exhumed a massgrave and cremated the human 
> remains the soil at the site would still show the traces of such 
> activity - one would be able to investigate for example the volume
> of such massgrave, etc.

Not necessarily after 60 years. A mass grave can be exhumed, the contents
cremated, and the entire area plowed under. If this took place more than
sixty years a forest and undergrowth could have made the former grave
indistinguishable from its surroundings.



> > So you are claiming
> He is not claiming - he pointed to a fact that no massgraves, nor traces
> of massgraves were found at that location.
> 
> > that the Ereignismeldungen of the Einsatzkommandos and
> > collective memory of thousands of compatriots being slaughtered are all
> > products of delusion?
> 
> it is not a "products of delusion", but a product of antiGerman propaganda.

How could anti-German propaganda have been so amazingly effective over six
decades? How could the propagandists have produced so many stories and
documents from Norway in the north to Greece and former Yugoslavia in the
south, from the Netherlands in the west to Belarus and Ukraine in the
east? 
 
> > And what about the times when collective memory of
> > mass murder and the contents of mass graves coincie, as at Serniki and
> > Ustinovka [http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/stories/s124137.htm]?
> > 
> 
> That article directly contradicts and rejects your lies:
> 
> 
> RICHARD WRIGHT: First of all the fundamental thing, is there a grave? 
> That must be discovered. If there's a grave, does it contain, how many 
> bodies does it contain? What are the ratios of the sexes in the grave, 
> adults, children and so on.
> 
> 
> you keep claiming that such forensic investigation is not required
> for your fictional holocau$t.

It is desirable, since it can be regarded as direct proof. But even when
there is a grave its contents can be interpreted in more than one way.
Despite the testimony of eyewitnesses who corroborated the arrangement of
the contents of the mass grave at Serniki before it was exhumed, there are
Holocaust deniers out there who have tried to claim that the people in the
grave were killed by the Soviet NKVD to make the Nazis look bad.

There are no mass graves for the people who died consequent to the atomic
bombings of central Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and there are precious few for
the victims of the Dresden bombings. The absence of these graves does not
mean that the events in question did not take place. There is a mass grave
in the old Jewish cemetery in Riga where the more than 1,000 people who
were shot in the ghetto and along Moscow Road were dumped on November 30
and December 8, 1941. The municipality of Riga has treated it as a mass
grave since the day that it received its first bodies. Little purpose
would be served by digging it up and examining its putrid contents after
sixty years.

Historical knowledge and understanding of atrocities committed in the past
rests on a far firmer foundation than merely counting and classifying the
bones in mass graves.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:38 EST 2005
Article: 1043105 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!meganewsservers.com!feeder2.on.meganewsservers.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eugene Holman - holocau$t promotion demagogue at work
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:15:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 116
Message-ID: 
References: <1115871645.843843.89400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  <4283489e_5@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>  <428379d1_3@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>
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In article <428379d1_3@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:

> 
> > Correct. The Liepaja massacres have to be put into context.
> catch 22 Eugene. you have no "context", you simply try to support your 
> context with "Liepaja massacres", etc., and then you want to use the 
> context to explain "Liepaja massacres", etc.

Without that context many readers of alt.revisionism would have no idea
about what the well-documented Liepaja massacre was a part of.

> > I used *The
> > Progress Report of Latvia's History Commission: Crimes against Humanity
> > Committed in the  Territory of Latvia from 1940 to 1956 during the
> > Occupations 
> 
> The fact is that Latvia was occupied by Soviet Union and the Nazis 
> kicked the soviets out in 1940.

You forget that they set up an occupation government that was even more
murderous in terms of murders per year than the Soviets had been during
their year in power.

> i noticed that you call the soviet 
> occupation of Latvia "collonization".

Actually, the 1940-1941 occupation was a classical occupation following
the subversion of the legal government. The same holds true, matatis
mutandis for the 1941-1944 Nazi occupation, although the Nazis engaged in
serious ethnic cleansing and brought in Jews to replace the locsal Jews
that they had murdered. The real colonization of Latvia took place between
1944 and 1991 when Latvians were deported to Siberia and people, uusually
Russian speaking and often ethnic Russian, were brought in to replace
them.

> >of the Soviet Union and National Socialist Germany Second
> > Sub-Commission: Holocaust in the Territory of Latvia during Nazi
> > Occupation 1941-1945* to provide this necessary context. Latvia is not a
> > country that comes to the mind of most readers when discussing the
> > Holocaust, so I felt obliged to provide this background information. 
> >  
> > 
> >>1.the fact is that even if there really was a massacre at Liepaja it 
> >>would be *NOT* evidence about killing of 70,000+20,000 jews, 
> > 
> > 
> > Almost 3,000 local Jews were massacred at Liepaja between December 15 and
> > 17, 1941. They are part of the 70,000 Latvian Jews murdered by the Nazis
> > as well as of the 90,000 Jews murdered by the Nazis in Latvia between 1941
> > and 1944.
> 
> nonsense - numbers like 90 000 murdered jews are not supported by 
> evidence. you desperately look for some evidence like "3,000 local Jews 
> were massacred", only as a pretext for your exaggerations/lies that follow.
> 
> > 
> > 
> >>and if 
> >>there was
> >>a massacre of 70,000+20,000 jews it wouldn't be a proof about killing of 
> >>6 000 000 of jews [so called holocau$t].
> > 
> > 
> > It adds up: 3,000 Jews at Liepaja + 25,000 at Rumbula + 33,000 at Babi
> > Yar, + approx. 1,500,000 at Auschwitz + approx. 135,000 by Einsatzgruppe A
> > in Ostland and Belarussia...  Have you never heard the expression many
> > small streams a mighty river make?
> 
> expressions like "many small streams a mighty river make" are not 
> evidence. just look at the awfull crap you just created:
> 3,000 Jews at Liepaja + 25,000 at Rumbula + 33,000 at Babi Yar + approx. 
> 135,000 by Einsatzgruppe A in Ostland and Belarussia - come to 196 000 -

I just picked out some well-known examples. I have neither the time nor
the need to list every atrocity committed by the Nazis along the eastern
front. I do know, however, that they were committed along a line
stretching from Tallinn, were a few hundred local Jews were shot outside
the city in the fall of 1941, to Sebastopil in the Crimean Peninsula.
Every city or town along this line with a Jewish population of any size
has affected: Tartu, Daugavpils, Kaunas, Minsk, Kishinev, Odessa, Kiev,
Starokamensk, Dnepropetrovsk...

> but the holocau$t propaganda claims that 1 000 000 - 1 500 000 were
> "exterminted" in Eastern Europe ! so even if the number 196 000 was 
> genuine - it could be hardly used to prove 1 000 000 - 1 500 000 victims.
> 
> [Auschwitz is in Poland, you know] 

During the war Auschwitz was in the Reich, in the Wartheland, which was
taken from Poland, to be precise. And where in the material quoted have I
mentioned Poland or Auschwitz?


> > Well, you can't commit
> > 90,000 murders within the course of slightly more than three years, as the
> > Nazis did in Latvia, and not leave all kinds of indirect evidence of what
> > you have done.
> 
> i see - so if no direct evidence exists that 90 000 jews were killed it 
> does not mean that 90 000 were not killed - it simply means that the 
> "evidence was destroyed", did i understand you right Grand Inquisitore ?

Of course not. If you kill 90,000 people in an urbanized, undusrialized
society, you necessarily generate paper trails. This includes the one
generated by organizing the mass killing as well as the one generated by
the complex process of locating, gathering, storing, guarding, evaluating,
and disposing of their property, assets, and real estate. The Nazis were
not just murderers, they were also plunderers and thieves, and they left
clear records of their thievery. Material of this kind is sored in
archives in Latvia and Germany, and it has been used as evidence in
post-war trials of the major war criminals responsible for the Latvian
part of the Holocaust.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:39 EST 2005
Article: 1043106 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!newsread.com!newsprint.newsread.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phil Mathews Final Words on Outgassing
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:20:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References:    
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In article , rjac@TheWorld.com (Ron Jacobson) wrote:

>    (snip Chris Carpenter's idiocy)
> 
>    Chris,  here is what professional chemists have said about
> the suitability of HCN for killing:
> 
>    
> 
>    Cyanide (HCN gas) is notorious as a poison but also is ideal as a 
> chemical weapon.  It kills rapidly,  dissipates quickly,  and leaves 
> no toxic residue.
> 

Provided it is used in an enclosure. Otherwise it is worthless as a
chemical weapon because of its high volatility in open air.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:39 EST 2005
Article: 1043168 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Austria  Was: Re: An Open Letter to Jews
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:21:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu
(Herman Rubin) wrote:


> 
> Austria was considered part ot "Germany" until 1866, when the
> Prussians defeated Austria-Hungary and ousted Austria from 
> being considered one of the German states, so it could proceed
> to unite the German states into one country in 1871.

I know this. Note that even you put "Germany" in quotes, because there was
no Germany as a political entity until 1871, as you say later.

> Read your history.

Been there, done that. The principalities that united to form Bismarck's
Reich and the Austro-Hungarian dual manarchy have fundamentally different
histories,  despite the fact that German language and culture played a
dominant role in the latter entity.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:39 EST 2005
Article: 1043261 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Properties and Safe Use of Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:52:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 36
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In article <1116038230.378610.124950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> You got to love exterminationists - they love to play the slippery
> eels.
> 
> Of course, should the occasion suit they will quickly turn around and
> point just how dangerous Zyklon B was.

Zyklon-B is lethally dangerous if allowed to outgas in enclosures, but
useless if it outgasses into the open air. Matches are useful in the open
air, but useless under water. Russian is useful in Moscow, Russia, but
worthless in Moscow, Idaho. Can't you understand the importance of
context?

 
> After all didnt Hoess write a letter (presented at his show trial -
> which I am sure he authenticated there, so that just proves it is
> genuine) which described how all his SS men were getting poisoned from
> Zyklon B outgassing with low levels of irritant?

Please provide a reference.

> You cant have it both ways.

Recognizing that the same substance has different functionalities in
different contexts is not "having it both ways". You can disinfect a
building with Zyklon-B, but not a mountain (unless you can seal it off and
enclose it in a tent). Similarly, the fast-acting operating room opiate
used at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow during the recent hostage crisis is
safe when applied by a trained anesthesiologist, but it can be lethal when
introduced to the ambient air in an auditorium full of nervous, hungry,
and sleep-deprived people.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:40 EST 2005
Article: 1043262 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Properties and Safe Use of Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:03:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23
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In article <1116045660.090452.167910@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"aether"  wrote:

> Marko Jotic wrote:
> > what lie? the first is a total, the second is for Auschwitz
> 
> No, the first plaque has been removed -- and replaced by the second.
> It's now conceded that at most 1.5 million died at Auschwitz-Birkenau,
> and not the manufactured figure of 4 million.

The 4 million figure was not manufactured. It was offered to a public
eager for a figure, any figure, a few weeks after the camp was liberated
as a rough initial estimate of the number of victims. It was based upon
the unfounded assumption that the camp had been opened with the same
facilities that it had when it was liberated and had been working at full
capacity since the beginning. The figure was already challenged in 1946.
As more material became available about the architectural history of the
camp, work schedules, shutdowns, and deportation arrivals, the figure was
gradually reduced, even if the plaque was not updated to reflect this
until much later.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:40 EST 2005
Article: 1043270 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Properties and Safe Use of Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:21:56 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 215
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In article <1116048363.398343.64910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> , Idaho. Can't you understand the importance of
> > context?
> >
> >
> > > After all didnt Hoess write a letter (presented at his show trial -
> > > which I am sure he authenticated there, so that just proves it is
> > > genuine) which described how all his SS men were getting poisoned
> from
> > > Zyklon B outgassing with low levels of irritant?
> >
> > Please provide a reference.
> >
> With pleasure, Eugene (I am rather surprised you feel the need to ask
> for it, its generally considered common knowledge amongst those
> familiar with Auschwitz).
> http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0201.htm

Thanks. Nobody can remember everything :-)

> 
> You will note that:
> "that in particular on opening rooms used for gassing SS not wearing
> masks must wait at least five hours and keep at a distance of at least
> 15 meters from the chamber. In addition, particular attention should he
> paid to the wind direction. "
> 
> Is presumably the operating instructions for all times of using gas.

That is a totally unjustified assumption. Once again, you look at the
document, but do not put it into a context.

First of all, the document is dated August 12, 1942. This is a time period
when the efficient Kremas II to IV had not even been constructed at
Auschwitz-Birkenau and two converted farmhouses, bunker I and bunker II,
were being used for the gassings. According to German law Zyklon-B had to
have an irritant, but to facilitate the mass murder of people, the SS had
demanded that DEGESCH, the supplier, violate the law and supply shipments
of Zyklon-B without the required irritant. This is the variety of Zyklon-B
that resulted in the »leichte Vergiftungserscheinigung durch Blausäure«
due to the fact that »Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält wenige beigesetzte
Geruchsstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.«. When defending himself
at his trial, the general director of DEGESCH, stated that this variety of
Zyklon-B assisted the condemned people to an easy death.

The conditions that obtained when using the converted farmhouses as gas
chambers differed radically from those that obtained a year later in
August 1943 when the four specially designed gas chamber-cum-crematorium
complexes at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been taken into operation.

> It would have made the operation of the hospital rather difficult.  As
> I suspect that it is easily within 15 metres of Krema I.

By August 1942 Krema I was being used only intermittently for gassings,
most of these operations were being conducted in bunkers I and II at
Birkenau
(http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTMLd/Gaskammern.html).
> 
> Or maybe you wish to have it both ways again?

There is no two ways about it.

Your document raises several difficult issues that you must address with
regard to the properties and use of Zyklon-B:

1. Why does Höß use the singular (»Ein heute mit leichte
Gifterscheinigungen aufgetretener Krankheitsfall«), but you claimed that
his letter described how "all his SS men were getting poisoned from Zyklon
B"? It is quite a jump from »ein aufgretener Krankheitsfall« to "all of
his SS men".
2. Why there should have been a specially commissioned (and illegal)
variety of Zyklon-B lacking the warning irritant, thus rendering it
particularly dangerous?
3. Why should Höß's SS-men be participating in »Vergasungen« ­ gassings ­
at all if they only involved delousing clothes?

Quite clearly, the gassings at the bunkers during the summer of 1942 when
the incident took place were being used to develop a more efficient
methodology for mass gassing. In his memoirs Höß says that the doors to
the gas chambers, presumably meaning those in the industrially efficient
Kremas II to V at Birkenau, could be opened about half an hour after the
ventilation process had begun. The article by Richard Green and jamie
McCarthy at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/
gives a mathematical model of the dissipation of the gas after ventilation
that is consistent with Höß's statements:



Ventilation 

The Sonderkommando were slave laborers: to their SS slavemasters they 
were expendable. The SS certainly did not have to obey OSHA regulations. 
They would not be averse to exposing the Sonderkommando to concentrations
of  approximately 40 ppmv ("slight symptoms after several hours"). Even if
the full concentration of 4500 to 18,100 ppmv had released from the Zyklon
into the gas chambers, it would only be necessary to reduce that
concentration by a factor of 100-500 times to reach  this tolerable level.


It is not the case that the full concentration of Zyklon was present. At
the largest Auschwitz crematoria (II and III), the Zyklon was removed
after a lethal quantity of gas was given off, using the same devices which
inserted it . At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings
took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved,
at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon. Once the
victims were dead, the remaining carrier material could be lifted out by
SS men wearing gas masks, to continue outgassing harmlessly into the open
air until spent. 

Inspection of Irmscher's paper shows (assuming the Erco carrier) that the
concentration that would be present after 30 minutes, for example, would
have been 20 to 40% of the total, i.e., 900-7200 ppmv. So it was only
necessary to reduce the concentration in the gas chambers by a factor of
20-200 times in order for the Sonderkommando to enter even without gas
masks . The remainder of the Zyklon could outgas safely in the outside
atmosphere - without, needless to say, "poisoning the entire camp." 

The gas chambers were 30 m long by 7 m wide: 210 sq m. They were 2.4 m
high, for a volume of 504 cu m.  [39] Those same chambers had a
ventilation system with both intake and exhaust fans, capable of cycling
8000 cu m through the room each hour.  [40] This is commonly referred to
as 8000 ÷ 504 = 15.8 "air exchanges per hour." 

Note that the Holocaust-denier Carlo Mattogno has misrepresented these
figures in his essay, "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend."  [41] 

It is impossible, of course, to get an exact figure for how long it
actually took to clear the air in the gas chamber. But we can obtain
approximations through mathematical modeling. The equation used is a
simple one: the concentration in the gas chamber is cut to 1/ e, or about
37%, for each room replacement of air. Where C(t) is the concentration of
HCN at time t in hours, 

C(t) = C(0) (1/ e)15.8t 

This equation supposes that the fresh air mixes with the air in the
chamber immediately and completely. In reality it does not do so.
Ventilation systems are designed to have an air flow such that the
expelled air has a higher concentration of poison, so this equation might
seem conservative. In addition, the victims' corpses take up space which
has not been figured into any of the below calculations; this would reduce
the volume and increase the replacement rate, again indicating that this
figure is conservative. But blockages caused by the same corpses, and the
possibility of laminar airflow, might work in the other direction. All in
all, this estimate will suffice. 

Using this equation, if C(0) = 900 ppmv, the concentration is less than
20 ppmv after just 15 minutes. 

The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists produces an
Industrial Hygiene Calculator program for the Windows operating system. 
[42] When the size and ventilation rates of the gas chamber are converted
to cubic feet and minutes, it returns identical results to the above
equation. 

It should also be pointed out that, halfway through their period of use,
the size of these gas chambers was cut in half:  [43] 

Leichenkeller I proved in the end to be too large for a gas chamber. At
the end of 1943, in order to "regularize" the operation of crematoria II
and III, the camp administration divided their gas chambers in two,
allowing no more than 100 sq m for the killing of 1,000 new arrivals
(unfit for work) in 24 hours. 

If one makes the logical assumption that the intake and exhaust vents were
also blocked off in the unused portion of the gas chambers, this
modification doubled the ventilation rate of the remaining portion.
However, we will continue to use the figures from 1943; if a gassing from
1944 is referenced, ventilation times would be cut in half. 

We return to the question of how long it would take to ventilate the gas
chamber from the level used in killing to a level which the Sonderkommando
could safely tolerate without a gas mask. We have seen that this took
place in less than 15 minutes from an initial  concentration of 900 ppmv. 

If the initial concentration were more than seven times higher
(7200 ppmv), owing to the nature of exponential math, the same
concentration of under 20 ppmv would be reached in less than 23 minutes.
Even if the residual Zyklon had not been removed and the chambers had the
full concentration of 18,100 ppmv, the  concentration would be less than
20 ppmv in 26 minutes. 

In fact, since OSHA guidelines (above) give specifications not for maximum
exposure but for mean exposure over fifteen minutes, we can use these
values to understand what the Sonderkommando would experience. In the
graph below, an initial concentration of 900 ppmv is assumed for the solid
lines. The concentration is plotted in red. In blue is plotted the mean
exposure over fifteen minutes for someone entering the gas chamber at the
specified time. The dashed lines show the same information assuming an
initial concentration of 7,200 ppmv:  [44] 

After ten minutes, in the former case, the ambient concentration was 
about 65 ppmv, and someone who entered the room at that point would
receive a mean exposure to HCN, from t=10 minutes to t=25 minutes, of
about 17 ppmv. Recall that 20 ppmv is the low end of Du Pont's symptom
category: "slight symptoms after several hours." 

It is thus safe to say that, with these assumptions, the Sonderkommando
could enter the gas chamber ten minutes after ventilation began, wearing
no gas masks, and experience no significant effects from the HCN. 

If we instead assume the highest estimated initial concentration of
7,200 ppmv, the dashed lines would apply. Thus, the Sonderkommando could
enter after eighteen minutes with no serious effects. 

This conservative estimate fits with Pressac's conclusion that the doors
were typically opened after twenty minutes of ventilation.  [45] 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:41 EST 2005
Article: 1043271 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Properties and Safe Use of Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:39:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116048363.398343.64910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> , Idaho. Can't you understand the importance of
> > context?
> >
> >
> > > After all didnt Hoess write a letter (presented at his show trial -
> > > which I am sure he authenticated there, so that just proves it is
> > > genuine) which described how all his SS men were getting poisoned
> from
> > > Zyklon B outgassing with low levels of irritant?
> >
> > Please provide a reference.
> >
> With pleasure, Eugene (I am rather surprised you feel the need to ask
> for it, its generally considered common knowledge amongst those
> familiar with Auschwitz).
> http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0201.htm

Thanks. Nobody can remember everything :-)

> 
> You will note that:
> "that in particular on opening rooms used for gassing SS not wearing
> masks must wait at least five hours and keep at a distance of at least
> 15 meters from the chamber. In addition, particular attention should he
> paid to the wind direction. "
> 
> Is presumably the operating instructions for all times of using gas.

That is a totally unjustified assumption. You look at the document, but do
not put it into its context.

First of all, the document is dated August 12, 1942. This is a time period
when the efficient Kremas II to V had not even been constructed at
Auschwitz-Birkenau and two converted farmhouses, bunker I and bunker II,
were being used for the gassings. According to German law Zyklon-B had to
have an irritant, but to facilitate the mass murder of people, the SS had
demanded that DEGESCH, the supplier, violate the law and supply shipments
of Zyklon-B without the required irritant. This is the variety of Zyklon-B
that resulted in the »leichte Vergiftungserscheinigung durch Blausäure«
due to the fact that »Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält wenige beigesetzte
Geruchsstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.«. When defending himself
at his trial, Dr. Gerhard Peters, the general director of DEGESCH, stated
that this variety of Zyklon-B assisted the condemned people to an easy
death.

The conditions that obtained when using the converted farmhouses as gas
chambers differed radically from those that obtained a year later in
August 1943 when the four specially designed gas chamber-cum-crematorium
complexes at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been taken into operation.

> It would have made the operation of the hospital rather difficult.  As
> I suspect that it is easily within 15 metres of Krema I.

By August 1942 Krema I was being used only intermittently for gassings,
most of these operations were being conducted in bunkers I and II at
Birkenau
(http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTMLd/Gaskammern.html).
> 
> Or maybe you wish to have it both ways again?

There is no two ways about it.

Your document raises several difficult issues that you must address with
regard to the properties and use of Zyklon-B:

1. Why does Höß use the singular (»Ein heute mit leichte
Gifterscheinigungen aufgetretener Krankheitsfall«), but you claimed that
his letter described how "all his SS men were getting poisoned from Zyklon
B"? It is quite a jump from »ein aufgretener Krankheitsfall« to "all of
his SS men".
2. Why there should have been a specially commissioned (and illegal)
variety of Zyklon-B lacking the warning irritant, thus rendering it
particularly dangerous?
3. Why should Höß's SS-men be participating in »Vergasungen« ­ gassings ­
at all if they only involved delousing clothes?

Quite clearly, the gassings at the bunkers during the summer of 1942 when
the incident took place were being used to develop a more efficient
methodology for mass gassing. In his memoirs Höß says that the doors to
the gas chambers, presumably meaning those in the industrially efficient
Kremas II to V at Birkenau, could be opened about half an hour after the
ventilation process had begun. The article by Richard Green and jamie
McCarthy at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/
gives a mathematical model of the dissipation of the gas after ventilation
that is consistent with Höß's statements:



Ventilation 

The Sonderkommando were slave laborers: to their SS slavemasters they 
were expendable. The SS certainly did not have to obey OSHA regulations. 
They would not be averse to exposing the Sonderkommando to concentrations
of  approximately 40 ppmv ("slight symptoms after several hours"). Even if
the full concentration of 4500 to 18,100 ppmv had released from the Zyklon
into the gas chambers, it would only be necessary to reduce that
concentration by a factor of 100-500 times to reach  this tolerable level.


It is not the case that the full concentration of Zyklon was present. At
the largest Auschwitz crematoria (II and III), the Zyklon was removed
after a lethal quantity of gas was given off, using the same devices which
inserted it . At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings
took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved,
at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon. Once the
victims were dead, the remaining carrier material could be lifted out by
SS men wearing gas masks, to continue outgassing harmlessly into the open
air until spent. 

Inspection of Irmscher's paper shows (assuming the Erco carrier) that the
concentration that would be present after 30 minutes, for example, would
have been 20 to 40% of the total, i.e., 900-7200 ppmv. So it was only
necessary to reduce the concentration in the gas chambers by a factor of
20-200 times in order for the Sonderkommando to enter even without gas
masks . The remainder of the Zyklon could outgas safely in the outside
atmosphere - without, needless to say, "poisoning the entire camp." 

The gas chambers were 30 m long by 7 m wide: 210 sq m. They were 2.4 m
high, for a volume of 504 cu m.  [39] Those same chambers had a
ventilation system with both intake and exhaust fans, capable of cycling
8000 cu m through the room each hour.  [40] This is commonly referred to
as 8000 ÷ 504 = 15.8 "air exchanges per hour." 

Note that the Holocaust-denier Carlo Mattogno has misrepresented these
figures in his essay, "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend."  [41] 

It is impossible, of course, to get an exact figure for how long it
actually took to clear the air in the gas chamber. But we can obtain
approximations through mathematical modeling. The equation used is a
simple one: the concentration in the gas chamber is cut to 1/ e, or about
37%, for each room replacement of air. Where C(t) is the concentration of
HCN at time t in hours, 

C(t) = C(0) (1/ e)15.8t 

This equation supposes that the fresh air mixes with the air in the
chamber immediately and completely. In reality it does not do so.
Ventilation systems are designed to have an air flow such that the
expelled air has a higher concentration of poison, so this equation might
seem conservative. In addition, the victims' corpses take up space which
has not been figured into any of the below calculations; this would reduce
the volume and increase the replacement rate, again indicating that this
figure is conservative. But blockages caused by the same corpses, and the
possibility of laminar airflow, might work in the other direction. All in
all, this estimate will suffice. 

Using this equation, if C(0) = 900 ppmv, the concentration is less than
20 ppmv after just 15 minutes. 

The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists produces an
Industrial Hygiene Calculator program for the Windows operating system. 
[42] When the size and ventilation rates of the gas chamber are converted
to cubic feet and minutes, it returns identical results to the above
equation. 

It should also be pointed out that, halfway through their period of use,
the size of these gas chambers was cut in half:  [43] 

Leichenkeller I proved in the end to be too large for a gas chamber. At
the end of 1943, in order to "regularize" the operation of crematoria II
and III, the camp administration divided their gas chambers in two,
allowing no more than 100 sq m for the killing of 1,000 new arrivals
(unfit for work) in 24 hours. 

If one makes the logical assumption that the intake and exhaust vents were
also blocked off in the unused portion of the gas chambers, this
modification doubled the ventilation rate of the remaining portion.
However, we will continue to use the figures from 1943; if a gassing from
1944 is referenced, ventilation times would be cut in half. 

We return to the question of how long it would take to ventilate the gas
chamber from the level used in killing to a level which the Sonderkommando
could safely tolerate without a gas mask. We have seen that this took
place in less than 15 minutes from an initial  concentration of 900 ppmv. 

If the initial concentration were more than seven times higher
(7200 ppmv), owing to the nature of exponential math, the same
concentration of under 20 ppmv would be reached in less than 23 minutes.
Even if the residual Zyklon had not been removed and the chambers had the
full concentration of 18,100 ppmv, the  concentration would be less than
20 ppmv in 26 minutes. 

In fact, since OSHA guidelines (above) give specifications not for maximum
exposure but for mean exposure over fifteen minutes, we can use these
values to understand what the Sonderkommando would experience. In the
graph below, an initial concentration of 900 ppmv is assumed for the solid
lines. The concentration is plotted in red. In blue is plotted the mean
exposure over fifteen minutes for someone entering the gas chamber at the
specified time. The dashed lines show the same information assuming an
initial concentration of 7,200 ppmv:  [44] 

After ten minutes, in the former case, the ambient concentration was 
about 65 ppmv, and someone who entered the room at that point would
receive a mean exposure to HCN, from t=10 minutes to t=25 minutes, of
about 17 ppmv. Recall that 20 ppmv is the low end of Du Pont's symptom
category: "slight symptoms after several hours." 

It is thus safe to say that, with these assumptions, the Sonderkommando
could enter the gas chamber ten minutes after ventilation began, wearing
no gas masks, and experience no significant effects from the HCN. 

If we instead assume the highest estimated initial concentration of
7,200 ppmv, the dashed lines would apply. Thus, the Sonderkommando could
enter after eighteen minutes with no serious effects. 

This conservative estimate fits with Pressac's conclusion that the doors
were typically opened after twenty minutes of ventilation.  [45] 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:41 EST 2005
Article: 1043277 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Properties and Safe Use of Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 14:21:22 +0300
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In article <1116048363.398343.64910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> , Idaho. Can't you understand the importance of
> > context?
> >
> >
> > > After all didnt Hoess write a letter (presented at his show trial -
> > > which I am sure he authenticated there, so that just proves it is
> > > genuine) which described how all his SS men were getting poisoned
> from
> > > Zyklon B outgassing with low levels of irritant?
> >
> > Please provide a reference.
> >
> With pleasure, Eugene (I am rather surprised you feel the need to ask
> for it, its generally considered common knowledge amongst those
> familiar with Auschwitz).
> http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0201.htm

Thanks. Nobody can remember everything :-)

> 
> You will note that:
> "that in particular on opening rooms used for gassing SS not wearing
> masks must wait at least five hours and keep at a distance of at least
> 15 meters from the chamber. In addition, particular attention should he
> paid to the wind direction. "
> 
> Is presumably the operating instructions for all times of using gas.

That is a totally unjustified assumption. You look at the document, but do
not put it into its context.

First of all, the document is dated August 12, 1942. This is a time period
when the efficient Kremas II to V had not even been constructed at
Auschwitz-Birkenau and two converted farmhouses, bunker I and bunker II,
were being used for the gassings. According to German law Zyklon-B had to
have an irritant, but to facilitate the mass murder of people, the SS had
demanded that DEGESCH, the supplier, violate the law and supply shipments
of Zyklon-B without the required irritant. This is the variety of Zyklon-B
that resulted in the »leichte Vergiftungserscheinigung durch Blausäure«
due to the fact that »Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält wenige beigesetzte
Geruchsstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.«. When defending himself
at his trial, Dr. Gerhard Peters, the general director of DEGESCH, stated
that this variety of Zyklon-B assisted the condemned people to an easy
death.

The conditions that obtained when using the converted farmhouses as gas
chambers differed radically from those that obtained a year later in
August 1943 when the four specially designed gas chamber-cum-crematorium
complexes at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been taken into operation.

> It would have made the operation of the hospital rather difficult.  As
> I suspect that it is easily within 15 metres of Krema I.

By August 1942 Krema I was being used only intermittently for gassings,
most of these operations were being conducted in bunkers I and II at
Birkenau
(http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTMLd/Gaskammern.html).
> 
> Or maybe you wish to have it both ways again?

There is no two ways about it.

Your document raises several difficult issues that you must address with
regard to the properties and use of Zyklon-B:

1. Why does Höß use the singular (»Ein [heute mit leichten
Gifterscheinigungen aufgetretener] Krankheitsfall«), but you claimed that
his letter described how "all his SS men were getting poisoned from Zyklon
B"? It is quite a jump from »ein...aufgretener Krankheitsfall« to "all of
his SS men".
2. Why there should have been a specially commissioned (and illegal)
variety of Zyklon-B lacking the warning irritant, thus rendering it
particularly dangerous?
3. Why should Höß's SS-men be participating in »Vergasungen« ­ gassings ­
at all if the gassings only involved delousing clothes?

Quite clearly, the gassings at the bunkers during the summer of 1942 when
the incident took place were being used to develop a more efficient
methodology for mass gassing. In his memoirs Höß says that the doors to
the gas chambers, presumably meaning those in the industrially efficient
Kremas II to V at Birkenau, could be opened about half an hour after the
ventilation process had begun. The article by Richard Green and jamie
McCarthy at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/
gives a mathematical model of the dissipation of the gas after ventilation
that is consistent with Höß's statements:



Ventilation 

The Sonderkommando were slave laborers: to their SS slavemasters they 
were expendable. The SS certainly did not have to obey OSHA regulations. 
They would not be averse to exposing the Sonderkommando to concentrations
of  approximately 40 ppmv ("slight symptoms after several hours"). Even if
the full concentration of 4500 to 18,100 ppmv had released from the Zyklon
into the gas chambers, it would only be necessary to reduce that
concentration by a factor of 100-500 times to reach  this tolerable level.


It is not the case that the full concentration of Zyklon was present. At
the largest Auschwitz crematoria (II and III), the Zyklon was removed
after a lethal quantity of gas was given off, using the same devices which
inserted it . At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings
took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved,
at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon. Once the
victims were dead, the remaining carrier material could be lifted out by
SS men wearing gas masks, to continue outgassing harmlessly into the open
air until spent. 

Inspection of Irmscher's paper shows (assuming the Erco carrier) that the
concentration that would be present after 30 minutes, for example, would
have been 20 to 40% of the total, i.e., 900-7200 ppmv. So it was only
necessary to reduce the concentration in the gas chambers by a factor of
20-200 times in order for the Sonderkommando to enter even without gas
masks . The remainder of the Zyklon could outgas safely in the outside
atmosphere - without, needless to say, "poisoning the entire camp." 

The gas chambers were 30 m long by 7 m wide: 210 sq m. They were 2.4 m
high, for a volume of 504 cu m.  [39] Those same chambers had a
ventilation system with both intake and exhaust fans, capable of cycling
8000 cu m through the room each hour.  [40] This is commonly referred to
as 8000 ÷ 504 = 15.8 "air exchanges per hour." 

Note that the Holocaust-denier Carlo Mattogno has misrepresented these
figures in his essay, "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend."  [41] 

It is impossible, of course, to get an exact figure for how long it
actually took to clear the air in the gas chamber. But we can obtain
approximations through mathematical modeling. The equation used is a
simple one: the concentration in the gas chamber is cut to 1/ e, or about
37%, for each room replacement of air. Where C(t) is the concentration of
HCN at time t in hours, 

C(t) = C(0) (1/ e)15.8t 

This equation supposes that the fresh air mixes with the air in the
chamber immediately and completely. In reality it does not do so.
Ventilation systems are designed to have an air flow such that the
expelled air has a higher concentration of poison, so this equation might
seem conservative. In addition, the victims' corpses take up space which
has not been figured into any of the below calculations; this would reduce
the volume and increase the replacement rate, again indicating that this
figure is conservative. But blockages caused by the same corpses, and the
possibility of laminar airflow, might work in the other direction. All in
all, this estimate will suffice. 

Using this equation, if C(0) = 900 ppmv, the concentration is less than
20 ppmv after just 15 minutes. 

The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists produces an
Industrial Hygiene Calculator program for the Windows operating system. 
[42] When the size and ventilation rates of the gas chamber are converted
to cubic feet and minutes, it returns identical results to the above
equation. 

It should also be pointed out that, halfway through their period of use,
the size of these gas chambers was cut in half:  [43] 

Leichenkeller I proved in the end to be too large for a gas chamber. At
the end of 1943, in order to "regularize" the operation of crematoria II
and III, the camp administration divided their gas chambers in two,
allowing no more than 100 sq m for the killing of 1,000 new arrivals
(unfit for work) in 24 hours. 

If one makes the logical assumption that the intake and exhaust vents were
also blocked off in the unused portion of the gas chambers, this
modification doubled the ventilation rate of the remaining portion.
However, we will continue to use the figures from 1943; if a gassing from
1944 is referenced, ventilation times would be cut in half. 

We return to the question of how long it would take to ventilate the gas
chamber from the level used in killing to a level which the Sonderkommando
could safely tolerate without a gas mask. We have seen that this took
place in less than 15 minutes from an initial  concentration of 900 ppmv. 

If the initial concentration were more than seven times higher
(7200 ppmv), owing to the nature of exponential math, the same
concentration of under 20 ppmv would be reached in less than 23 minutes.
Even if the residual Zyklon had not been removed and the chambers had the
full concentration of 18,100 ppmv, the  concentration would be less than
20 ppmv in 26 minutes. 

In fact, since OSHA guidelines (above) give specifications not for maximum
exposure but for mean exposure over fifteen minutes, we can use these
values to understand what the Sonderkommando would experience. In the
graph below, an initial concentration of 900 ppmv is assumed for the solid
lines. The concentration is plotted in red. In blue is plotted the mean
exposure over fifteen minutes for someone entering the gas chamber at the
specified time. The dashed lines show the same information assuming an
initial concentration of 7,200 ppmv:  [44] 

After ten minutes, in the former case, the ambient concentration was 
about 65 ppmv, and someone who entered the room at that point would
receive a mean exposure to HCN, from t=10 minutes to t=25 minutes, of
about 17 ppmv. Recall that 20 ppmv is the low end of Du Pont's symptom
category: "slight symptoms after several hours." 

It is thus safe to say that, with these assumptions, the Sonderkommando
could enter the gas chamber ten minutes after ventilation began, wearing
no gas masks, and experience no significant effects from the HCN. 

If we instead assume the highest estimated initial concentration of
7,200 ppmv, the dashed lines would apply. Thus, the Sonderkommando could
enter after eighteen minutes with no serious effects. 

This conservative estimate fits with Pressac's conclusion that the doors
were typically opened after twenty minutes of ventilation.  [45] 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:42 EST 2005
Article: 1043295 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:10:00 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <130520052234406508%timcmay@removethis.got.net>, Tim May
 wrote:

> In article , Eugene
> Holman  wrote:
> 
> > In article <1116045660.090452.167910@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "aether"  wrote:
> > 
> > > Marko Jotic wrote:
> > > > what lie? the first is a total, the second is for Auschwitz
> > > 
> > > No, the first plaque has been removed -- and replaced by the second.
> > > It's now conceded that at most 1.5 million died at Auschwitz-Birkenau,
> > > and not the manufactured figure of 4 million.
> > 
> > The 4 million figure was not manufactured. It was offered to a public
> > eager for a figure, any figure, a few weeks after the camp was liberated
> > as a rough initial estimate of the number of victims.
> 
> 
> The Jew claims that  most of Jewry was wiped out. Estimates as high as
> 6 million are espoused. 

On thing at a time, please. After the war it was initially claimed that
four million people had been killed at Auschwitz, not all of them Jews by
any means. Estimates were indeed gien that close to six million Jews had
been killed, but, after having killed more than 200,000 Jews between June
22, 1941 and mid January, 1942, the Nazis still called a conference at
Wannsee at which they claimed that 11,000,000 Jews still remained to be
dealt with within the framework of the Final Solution:

Source: http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html



III. 
Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of
emigration,  i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that
the Führer gives the appropriate  approval in advance. 

These actions are, however, only to be considered provisional, but
practical experience is already being collected which is of the greatest
importance in relation to the future final solution of the Jewish
question. 

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of
the European  Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual
countries: 

Country                             Number

A.   Germany proper                          131,800
     Austria                                  43,700
     Eastern territories                     420,000
     General Government                    2,284,000
     Bialystok                               400,000
     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200
     Estonia         - free of Jews -
     Latvia                                    3,500
     Lithuania                                34,000
     Belgium                                  43,000
     Denmark                                   5,600
     France /  occupied territory            165,000
               unoccupied territory          700,000
     Greece                                   69,600
     Netherlands                             160,800
     Norway                                    1,300

B.   Bulgaria                                 48,000
     England                                 330,000
     Finland                                   2,300
     Ireland                                   4,000
     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000
     Albania                                     200
     Croatia                                  40,000
     Portugal                                  3,000
     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000
     Sweden                                    8,000
     Switzerland                              18,000
     Serbia                                   10,000
     Slovakia                                 88,000
     Spain                                     6,000
     Turkey (European portion)                55,500
     Hungary                                 742,800
     USSR                                  5,000,000
          Ukraine                          2,994,684
          White Russia
          excluding Bialystok                446,484


                         Total    over    11,000,000 

The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however,
only those  Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith, since some
countries still do not have a definition  of the term "Jew" according to
racial principles. 

The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with
difficulties due  to the attitude and outlook of the people there,
especially in Hungary and Rumania.  Thus, for example, even today the Jew
can buy documents in Rumania that will officially prove  his foreign
citizenship. 

The influence of the Jews in all walks of life in the USSR is well known. 
Approximately  five million Jews live in the European part of the USSR, in
the Asian part scarcely 1/4 million.  




> 
> And yet of the 5 million Jews before the war, two million Jews were in
> the ZOG state by 1955, a million were in LA and NY by that year, and
> another million were scattered around the globe.

The Nazis obviously dispute your figures. In many countries being a Jew
was a matter of self-identification and olifestyle, but as the above
excerpt demonstrates, the Germans regarded being Jewish as a racial
characteristic. In Hungary, for example, many people whose grandparents
were Jews but who themselves were practicing Catholics were regarded as
Jews by the Nazis. the same holds true for former US Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright, raised a Catholic in a family that had converted from
Judaism. The Nazi authorities in her native Czechoslovakia still regarded
her families as Jews. This point is made in the above excerpt, where it is
stated: 

"The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however,
only those  Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith, since some
countries still do not have a definition  of the term "Jew" according to
racial principles. 

The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with
difficulties due  to the attitude and outlook of the people there,
especially in Hungary and Rumania.  Thus, for example, even today the Jew
can buy documents in Rumania that will officially prove  his foreign
citizenship."  
 
> Somehow more Jews exited that war than entered it.

Many Jews were killed during the war, including the overwhelming majority
of the Jews in Poland, Greece, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, and
Hungary. The vibrant Yiddish-using Jewish culture that had flourished in
eastern central Europe before the war was virtually annihilated.

> Either the Jew are very fast at breeding and maturing (which
> contradicts the evidence about shlemiels and nebbishes), or some Big
> Lies were told about what happened during the war.

Or definitions differ with respect to who is and is not to be regarded as
a Jew. 
 
> And given that the Jew invented the idea of the Big Lie, guess which is
> more likely?

The "Big Lie" technique was discussed as an instrument of policy in
Hitler's *mein Kampf*.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:43 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
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In article <130520052234406508%timcmay@removethis.got.net>, Tim May
 wrote:

> In article , Eugene
> Holman  wrote:
> 
> > In article <1116045660.090452.167910@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "aether"  wrote:
> > 
> > > Marko Jotic wrote:
> > > > what lie? the first is a total, the second is for Auschwitz
> > > 
> > > No, the first plaque has been removed -- and replaced by the second.
> > > It's now conceded that at most 1.5 million died at Auschwitz-Birkenau,
> > > and not the manufactured figure of 4 million.
> > 
> > The 4 million figure was not manufactured. It was offered to a public
> > eager for a figure, any figure, a few weeks after the camp was liberated
> > as a rough initial estimate of the number of victims.
> 
> 
> The Jew claims that  most of Jewry was wiped out. Estimates as high as
> 6 million are espoused. 

One thing at a time, please. After the war it was initially claimed that
four million people had been killed at Auschwitz, not all of them Jews by
any means. Estimates were indeed given that close to six mostly eastern
European illion European Jews had been killed, but, after having murdered
more than 200,000 Jews between June 22, 1941 and mid January, 1942, the
Nazis still called a conference at Wannsee at which they claimed that
11,000,000 Jews still remained to be dealt with within the framework of
their Final Solution:

Source: http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html



III. 
Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of
emigration,  i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that
the Führer gives the appropriate  approval in advance. 

These actions are, however, only to be considered provisional, but
practical experience is already being collected which is of the greatest
importance in relation to the future final solution of the Jewish
question. 

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of
the European  Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual
countries: 

Country                             Number

A.   Germany proper                          131,800
     Austria                                  43,700
     Eastern territories                     420,000
     General Government                    2,284,000
     Bialystok                               400,000
     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200
     Estonia         - free of Jews -
     Latvia                                    3,500
     Lithuania                                34,000
     Belgium                                  43,000
     Denmark                                   5,600
     France /  occupied territory            165,000
               unoccupied territory          700,000
     Greece                                   69,600
     Netherlands                             160,800
     Norway                                    1,300

B.   Bulgaria                                 48,000
     England                                 330,000
     Finland                                   2,300
     Ireland                                   4,000
     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000
     Albania                                     200
     Croatia                                  40,000
     Portugal                                  3,000
     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000
     Sweden                                    8,000
     Switzerland                              18,000
     Serbia                                   10,000
     Slovakia                                 88,000
     Spain                                     6,000
     Turkey (European portion)                55,500
     Hungary                                 742,800
     USSR                                  5,000,000
          Ukraine                          2,994,684
          White Russia
          excluding Bialystok                446,484


                         Total    over    11,000,000 

The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however,
only those  Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith, since some
countries still do not have a definition  of the term "Jew" according to
racial principles. 

The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with
difficulties due  to the attitude and outlook of the people there,
especially in Hungary and Rumania.  Thus, for example, even today the Jew
can buy documents in Rumania that will officially prove  his foreign
citizenship. 

The influence of the Jews in all walks of life in the USSR is well known. 
Approximately  five million Jews live in the European part of the USSR, in
the Asian part scarcely 1/4 million.  




> 
> And yet of the 5 million Jews before the war, two million Jews were in
> the ZOG state by 1955, a million were in LA and NY by that year, and
> another million were scattered around the globe.

The Nazis would obviously have disputed your 5,000,000 figure. In some
countries being a Jew was a matter of self-identification and lifestyle,
but as the above excerpt demonstrates, the Germans regarded being Jewish
as a racial characteristic and they imposed this definition on the
countries that they occupied or were allied with. In Hungary, for example,
many people whose grandparents were Jews but who themselves were
practicing Catholics were regarded as Jews by the Nazis. The same holds
true for former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, raised a
Catholic in a family that had converted from Judaism. The Nazi authorities
in her native Czechoslovakia still regarded her family as Jews. This point
is made in the above excerpt, where it is
stated: 

"The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however,
only those  Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith, since some
countries still do not have a definition  of the term "Jew" according to
racial principles. 

The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with
difficulties due  to the attitude and outlook of the people there,
especially in Hungary and Rumania.  Thus, for example, even today the Jew
can buy documents in Rumania that will officially prove  his foreign
citizenship."  
 
> Somehow more Jews exited that war than entered it.

Many Jews were killed during the war, including the overwhelming majority
of the Jews in Poland, Greece, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Yugoslav
countries, and Hungary. The vibrant Yiddish-language Jewish culture that
had flourished in eastern central Europe before the war was virtually
annihilated and has never recovered.

> Either the Jew are very fast at breeding and maturing (which
> contradicts the evidence about shlemiels and nebbishes), or some Big
> Lies were told about what happened during the war.

Or definitions differ with respect to who is and is not to be regarded as
a Jew. 
 
> And given that the Jew invented the idea of the Big Lie, guess which is
> more likely?

The "Big Lie" technique was discussed as an instrument of policy in
Hitler's *Mein Kampf*.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:43 EST 2005
Article: 1043302 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:53:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Eugene here is the testimony of a person that was in the concentration cam.
> 
> Kurt Knoll


Thanks.

The first thing that we note is the nature of the punishment: more than
two years in a death trap for having had a roll in the hay with a person
that the Nazis could not accept as a suitable partner for her.


> She saw very many prisoners die in the camp from diseases and also people
> who
> 
> took their lives on the electric fence. But she never saw any prisoners
> killed
> 
> by anyone in the camp. Of 1,000 Germans who had arrived in March of 1942,
> there
> 
> were only three left when Herwaarden arrived in December. They had all died
> of
> 
> black fever. There was nothing to do against the disease, although
> Herwaarden


If the Nazis were running a facility with a death rate like that, they
were obviously guilty of mass murder by neglect.

> In the period of time she was in the camp, she
> saw
> 
> no indication of "millions" of people; 

Of course not. As an inmate her movement was restrivted. Auschwitz had
several subcamps and deportation and other records show that well over a
million people interacted with the camp in one way or another during its
existence.

> nor did she ever see any indication
> of a
> 
> mass murder or extermination of Jews.

> While gassings were talked about at
> the
> 
> camp, she personally never saw anything of the sort. 

Hardly surprising, since gassing s were conducted inside of gas chambers.
If you want to be all pedantic, nobody ever actually witnessed a gassing.
The closest to a gassing witness would be the SS-men who secured the door
when the people who were inside were still alive, and then opened it an
hour later, when they were all dead.

> There was a terrible smell
> 
> in the camp, however, 

Yes, burning human flesh is not a pleasant smell.

> and she confirmed that there was a horseshoe place on
> the
> 
> way from Birkenau to the tree plantation. Herwaarden agreed that she had
> 
> difficulty getting people to believe what she saw in Auschwitz-Birkenau:
> "Many
> 
> don't believe that." (25-6643 to 6647)
> 
> 
> 
> On cross-examination, Herwaarden agreed that it was forbidden to have sexual
> 
> intercourse with a non-Aryan and that was why she was sent to Auschwitz. She
> 
> agreed that Hitler was opposed to race mixing. (25-6647, 6648)
> 


She was a young and naive girl who had to pay an extraordinary price for a
roll in the hay with what the Nazi dictatorship thought was the wrong man.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:43 EST 2005
Article: 1043305 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:46:58 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Miss Hawarden also said she did not know or see any of the alleged gassings
> 

> 
> While gassings were talked about at the camp, she personally never saw 
> anything of the sort.
> 


Penal gassings used to be performed at San Quentin Prison outside San
Fransisco. How many inmates, even death row inmates, could claim that they
had ever actually seen a gassing? As was the case at Auschwitz, gassings
were talked about, but performed out of the sight of people who were not
legally involved with the specific case. You can't gas people with cyanide
unless you have them locked in a firmly built enclosure, so that already
precludes prying eyes. In the American penal system there is a window,
because executions have witnesses. In the Nazi system there were windows
for cross ventilation in some gas chambers, but they were firmly shut
during the execution phase of the gassing. Only a tiny peephole in the
gas-proof door allowed the SS-officer in charge of the gassing to
determine whether all signs of life in the gas chamber had ceased.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:44 EST 2005
Article: 1043316 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:06:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 29
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Eugene you are talking about a single item what Hawarden said. 

Correct. I wanted to comment specifically on what she had to say about gassing.

> Cutting the
> whole content of my posting is a typical way Jews do not want others to get
> all the facts. 

Nonsense. You are constatntly being admonished to stop top-posting and
reposting lines of material that we have already read and are no longer
cogent. People who want the content that is of secondary importance can
read the earlier postings in the thread. There is no need to waste
bandwidth by constantly reposting the same stuff like you do.

>Your cutting or manipulating is one of the Jewish deceit most
> people know about.



Newsreader programs arrange postings in threads so that people can comment
on the essentials and backtrack if necessary to retrieve earlier content.
My newsreader even has a function called *Open all references* which will
even open postings in a thread that are no longer displayed.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:44 EST 2005
Article: 1043345 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 02:11:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116107589.647868.298180@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"aether"  wrote:

> Eugene - You're not of Jewish descent, are you?

Not exactly. I am racially mixed and regarded by default as
African-American. On my mother's side, though, there are family records of
Sephardic links to a Jacob Nuñez/Nunhez, who left Spain via Portugal and
settled in Georgia during the 1770s, eventually seeing his daughter marry
into the Oglethorpe clan. These facts, although interesting from the
standpoint of my personal history, have absolutely nothing to do with the
material that we are discussing here. The Nazis were primarily interested
in exterminating Ashkenazic, not Sephardic, Jews.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:44 EST 2005
Article: 1043408 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:06:49 +0300
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> I am not so sure he is using his real name. 

Ich verwende stets meinen echten Namen.

> The reality is many of his
> sentences are about the same as the trash but out by Kenneth McVay, Jeffery
> brown and many others of this holohoax hooligans.

Die Wirklichkeit in meinen Sätzen ist die, die ich als Geschichtsforscher
gelernt habe.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:44 EST 2005
Article: 1043411 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:32:17 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article ,
Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2005 03:45:53 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
> wrote:
> 
> >DSMRD - Joseph G. Burg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Did Six Million Really Die?
> 
> Just under, but it is rounded off to 6 million.  Maybe the true figure
> is 5 million 800 thousand and some odd number of hundreds.
> 
> Your mistake is focusing on the concentration camps.  that is the FLAW
> in your entire argument.  Einsatzgruppen was never involved with
> concentration camps.  All concentration camps were in Poland.

Wrong. 

All dedicated extermination camps (Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka)
were in Poland, but there were concentration camps all over Nazi-occupied
Europe, e.g. Vaivara near Narva in Estonia, Salapspils, near Riga in
Latvia, Vugt in the Netherlands, Drancy in a suburb of Paris, France, etc.
There were over 1,000 camps and over 10,000 detention places if subcamps
and ghettos are counted (for details, see
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/camps.htm).

By the way, Auschwitz was in Germany during the war. The Nazis annexed
some territory from Poland after the 1939 invsion, and the Wartheland,
where Auschwitz was located, was inside the Reich, as opposed to being
merely on territory being occupied by it, between late 1939 and early
1945.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:45 EST 2005
Article: 1043415 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:47:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <7vjd819528tlbc1ge1crkv729qm2lt2asl@4ax.com>,
Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net wrote:



> How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of the
> pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?
> 
>     Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)



>     Finland 7 -- 0.3%



This figure is incorrect. Not a single Finnish Jew was murdered in Finland
or anywhere else by the Nazis. Indeed, the Finnish Jews found themselves
in the bizarre  situation of fighting together with the Nazis as
comrades-in-arms against a common foe, the Soviet Union.

In the fall of 1942 a small group of people who had found refuge in
Finland, eight of them Jews, were handed over to the Gestapo because they
or members of their families had committed crimes in Finland or otherwise
violated the conditions of their residence permits. They wound up in
Auschwitz, and seven of the eight Jews in the group perished there. See
http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm  for details.

Regrds,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:45 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
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In article ,
Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2005 08:47:50 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
> Holman) wrote:
> 
> >In article <7vjd819528tlbc1ge1crkv729qm2lt2asl@4ax.com>,
> >Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of the
> >> pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?
> >> 
> >>     Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
> >
> >
> >
> >>     Finland 7 -- 0.3%
> >
> >
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >This figure is incorrect. Not a single Finnish Jew was murdered in Finland
> >or anywhere else by the Nazis.
> 
> This statement here...
> 
> 
> > Indeed, the Finnish Jews found themselves
> >in the bizarre  situation of fighting together with the Nazis as
> >comrades-in-arms against a common foe, the Soviet Union.
> >
> >In the fall of 1942 a small group of people who had found refuge in
> >Finland, eight of them Jews, were handed over to the Gestapo because they
> >or members of their families had committed crimes in Finland or otherwise
> >violated the conditions of their residence permits.
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > They wound up in
> >Auschwitz, and seven of the eight Jews in the group perished there. See
> >http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm  for details.
> 
> directly contradicts this statement -here-.
> 
> IOW, by your own admission, 8 Finnish Jews were sent to Auschwitz
> where they "perished."
> 
> Yah, I know, the hour is late and it is time to go to bed.

No. Finnish Jews and Jews in Finland are not the same thing. Finnish Jews
are Jewish citizens of Finland. Not a single one of them died at the hands
of the Nazis. Jewish refugees in Finland are a different category. Finland
had granted refugee status and residence permits to several hundred
Central European Jews who were fleeing the Holocaust. In the fall of 1942
a group of about twenty people who had found refuge in Finland, along with
their family members, were deported from Finland for having committed
crimes or otherwise violating the conditions of their residence. Of these
deportees, eight were Jews, but none of them was a Finnish citizen or a
Finnish Jew. Seven of them perished at Auschwitz. Thus, on one occasion
Finland did hand over Jews to the Gestapo, and seven of them died at
Auschwitz, but none of the Jews who were handed over was a Finnish Jew.
That is the reason for the rather curious number seven as the number of
"Finnish Holocaust victims".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:45 EST 2005
Article: 1043441 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:16:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article ,
Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net wrote:

> On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:43:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>  wrote:
> 
> >On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:56:45 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
> > wrote:
> >
> >>All concentration camps were in Poland.
> >
> >Nope.  They were all over Europe.  See:
> >  http://www.porges.net/Terezin/ListOfKZCamps.html
> >for a map and:
> >  http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/MainCampsEng.html
> >for a list.
> 
> This is an eye opener.  Maybe I am specifically referring to _DEATH
> CAMPS_:
> 
> What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they located?
> 
>     Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with
> special apparatus specifically designed for systematic murder. Six
> such camps existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek,
> Sobibor, Treblinka. All were located in Poland.

Not by a long shot.

There were four dedicated extermination camps: the pilot camp Chelmno and
the three Aktion Reinhardt camps: Belzec, Sobinor, and Treblinka, all
located in Poland. Most deportees were dead within a few hours of arrival
at these camps. The strongest and healthy of them were employed to deal
with the bodies and sort, classify, dispose of or clean, and repair the
belongings of the people who had been killed.

There were two multifunctional forced labor camps with dedicated
extermination divisions: Auschwitz and Majdanek. Although both are now in
Poland, during WW II Auschwitz was in Germany due to border adjustments
made after the invasion of Poland in September 1939.

There were several camps with "special apparatus specifically designed for
systematic murder", that is to say, gas chambers. Most of them were in
Germany, e.g. Stutthof, Sachsenhausen, Ravensbrück, Neuengamme, and
Mauthausen [in Austria, but Austria had been absorbed into Germany in
1938]. One such camp. Natzweiler, was in France. In conjunction with
another camp, Salaspils in Riga, gas vans were used to murder a
deportation train full of Jews on at least one occasion. Additionally,
there is little reason to distinguish between a camp and a euthanasia
center, particularly considering that within the framework of the 14f13
euthanasia program forced laborers from camps lacking gas chambers were
sent to one of the six euthanasia centers, Bernburg, Brandenburg,
Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, and Sonnenstein, to be gassed in the gas
chambers there
[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/t4.html]. The camps
and the euthanasia centers were all designed, built, financed,
administered, and staffed by the RSHA bureaucracy, and staff and knowhow
were shared.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:45 EST 2005
Article: 1043442 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:18:06 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article ,
Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net wrote:

> On Sat, 14 May 2005 23:31:49 -0700, "Szaki" 
> wrote:
> 
> >So what Jewish web site did you copy/past this piece of crap info out of MR. 
> >*ickman?
> >JS
> 
> What's it to ya Nippy?
> Thinking of invading China again?  Don't let N Korea stand in your
> way.  I'm sure they'll build a road just for your *army* so they don't
> get their wheels dirty on the way to Nanking.

I hate to break it to you, but Szaki is Hungarian, as in magyar.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:46 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:58:36 +0300
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:


> 
> Holman stop your lies and stop making this stuff up, negro idiot!

Lófasz a nagy seggedbe! Én nem idióta vagyok, hanem te!

> >>Your source- .jewishvirtuallibrary<<
> Must be true!

Don't knock the source, rather demonstrate convincingly that what I wrote
is incorrect, disznó.

\Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:46 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:50:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 34
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In article <3epnujF4bj8dU1@individual.net>, sp_ot@b_e_er.co_m wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Lófasz a nagy seggedbe! Én nem idióta vagyok, hanem te!
> > 
> > 
> 
> Pardon me but is that Finnish?  


> No, it's Hungarian, Szaki's native language.

> The first sentence looks awfully 
> similar to my father's favorite Hungarian term of um . . . 
> aggravation.  

In Finnish it would be 'Hevosen kyrpä/suoro menköön perseesees(i)!'

> Yes, I know what it means in Hungarian, and I realize 
> that Magyar is part of the Finno-Urgic family but it's still a kick to 
> see it in print.

Hungarian (= H) and Finnish [= F] (as well as closely related Estonian [=
E] ) are distantly related, but aside from some basic vocabulary items (H
vér = F/E veri 'blood', H kèz = F/E käsi 'hand, arm', H hal = F/E kala
'fish', H három = F kolme/E kolm 'three', H kó´ ~ köve- F/E kivi 'stone',
H nyil = F nuoli/E nool), understanding the relationship requires a
considerable amount of linguistic expertise (e.g. H fa = F/E puu 'tree', H
fél = F puoli/E pool 'half', H fej = F pää/E pea 'head').

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:46 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much truth is there about gas chambers
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 00:00:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3Azhe.1357242$6l.68148@pd7tw2no>, "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:



Is this the other side of the story that you regard it as so important
that sudents of the holocaust read? Sanctissima simplicitas!

Mit freundlichen Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:46 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.russian
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism in a Nutshell
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 06:56:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 98
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In article <1116207912.953933.25580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
serwad@bellsouth.net wrote:

> The fact remains that there were less than 4 million Jews under
> Hitler's control, and it is obvious that he could not have killed six
> million, most especially since 3.25 million Jews claimed reparations
> from germany. 

Nonsense. After having killed more than 200,000 Jews between June 22, 1941
and mid January, 1942, the Nazis assessed what remained to be done at the
Wannsee Conference:

Source: http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html



Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of
the European  Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual
countries: 

Country                             Number

A.   Germany proper                          131,800
     Austria                                  43,700
     Eastern territories                     420,000
     General Government                    2,284,000
     Bialystok                               400,000
     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200
     Estonia         - free of Jews -
     Latvia                                    3,500
     Lithuania                                34,000
     Belgium                                  43,000
     Denmark                                   5,600
     France /  occupied territory            165,000
               unoccupied territory          700,000
     Greece                                   69,600
     Netherlands                             160,800
     Norway                                    1,300

B.   Bulgaria                                 48,000
     England                                 330,000
     Finland                                   2,300
     Ireland                                   4,000
     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000
     Albania                                     200
     Croatia                                  40,000
     Portugal                                  3,000
     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000
     Sweden                                    8,000
     Switzerland                              18,000
     Serbia                                   10,000
     Slovakia                                 88,000
     Spain                                     6,000
     Turkey (European portion)                55,500
     Hungary                                 742,800
     USSR                                  5,000,000
          Ukraine                          2,994,684
          White Russia
          excluding Bialystok                446,484


                         Total    over    11,000,000 



The countries in group A were under Nazi control and the number of Jews in
them amounts to more than 4,550,000. Of the countries in group B, the
Nazis eventually managed to gain control over the Jews of Croatia,
Romania, Slovakia, and Hungary, as well as a substantial number of the
Jews of Italy, Serbia, and the European part of the RSFSR, Russia Proper,
in the USSR, this being more than 5,000,000 more Jews. In countries such
as Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Croatia, Slovakia, White Russia
(Byelorussia), Ukraine, and Greece, between 80 and 90 per cent of the
Jewish populations were exterminated by the Nazis, so the 6,000,000 figure
is quite plausible, seeing that between 1939 and 1945 the Nazis by their
own statistics had control of territory where approximately 10,000,000
Jews were living.

> Most jews reject these numbers altogether. jewish
> historian, diplomat and Holocaust researcher Alfred M. Lilienthal is a
> good example, not only has he seen the camps after the war with his own
> eyes, but he was involved in postwar eradication of evil.  Majority of
> jews who claim tremendous suffering and survival, are liars, who not
> only lie about being in the camps, they also lie about being Jews, good
>  example of this is the fellow called Wiborowski from Ewitzerland who
> has never even  been to germany!

Since more than 95% of the victims of the Holocaust were from countries
that Germany had invaded or co-opted, whether or not a person has ever
been to Germany is irrelevant. One of the most outrageous things about the
Holocaust is that Germany took it upon itself to embark upan a continental
campaign of ethnic cleansing. There is no reason whatsoever that the Jews
of countries as far from Germany as Norway, Estonia and Greece should have
been scapegoated as responsible for the problems that Nazi Germany thought
that it was having with Jews.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:47 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism,scruz.general
Subject: Re: The Big Lie
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:20:52 +0300
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In article <-Y-dncTWKKGWSBrfRVn-rA@comcast.com>, "Szaki"
 wrote:

> "TDKozan"  wrote in message 
> news:3epnujF4bj8dU1@individual.net...
> > Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Lófasz a nagy seggedbe! Én nem idióta vagyok, hanem te!
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Pardon me but is that Finnish?  The first sentence looks awfully similar 
> > to my father's favorite Hungarian term of um . . . aggravation.  Yes, I 
> > know what it means in Hungarian, and I realize that Magyar is part of the 
> > Finno-Urgic family but it's still a kick to see it in print.
> >
> > T"We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate."K
> >
> > -- 
> > Cogito ergo bibo
> 
> It's in Hungarian!
> >>Lofasz a segedbe = Horse-cock up your ass <<
> Very common saying in the low class Hungarian peasants culture.
>  Mr. negro Holman practicing his Hungarian swearing language skill on me.
> Problem, his Hungarian grammatic still not that good, but close.
> I guess, this is  how my writing can look in English, so we're even.

Köszönöm, az kedves bók volt. Neked probléma, hogy fekete vagyok?

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:47 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Just how stupid is Kurt Knoll? Allow Kurt to speak for himself (was Re: Just how stupid is Kurt Knoll?  Ask the other Holocaust deniers)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:00:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , rjac@TheWorld.com (Ron Jacobson) wrote:

>    Holocaust deniers usually stick by each other no
> matter what.
> 
>    One exception to this rule is Kurt Knoll.  Kurt is
> such an awful,  deranged moron,  that even his denier
> cohorts have asserted that he's actually a "plant",
> working to make deniers look bad:
> 
>    

Kurt Knoll speaks for himself:

Source:
From: "Kurt Knoll" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
...
Subject: Re: How much truth is there about gas chambers
...
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:23:55 GMT
...




I do not deny the holocaust I just do not believe in it.

Kurt Knoll.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:47 EST 2005
Article: 1043797 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just how stupid ... are Holocaustians?
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:00:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116270474.417439.54590@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Schorsch"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:


> > >
> > >    
> 
> Is Kurt Knoll your favourite strawman to argue against?!
> 
> > Kurt Knoll speaks for himself:
> >
> > Source:
> > From: "Kurt Knoll" 
> > Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> > ...
> > Subject: Re: How much truth is there about gas chambers
> > ...
> > Message-ID: 
> > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:23:55 GMT
> > ...
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> > I do not deny the holocaust I just do not believe in it.
> >
> > Kurt Knoll.
> > 
> > 

I do not argue against or with Kurt Knoll, I actually rather like him. He
has such a way with words.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:47 EST 2005
Article: 1043799 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just how stupid is Kurt Knoll? Allow Kurt to speak for himself (was Re: Just how stupid is Kurt Knoll?  Ask the other Holocaust deniers)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:05:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <118hssdm5nm5711@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote
> [...]
> >
> > Kurt Knoll speaks for himself:
> >
> [...]
> >
> > I do not deny the holocaust I just do not believe in it.
> >
> > Kurt Knoll.
> > 
> > 
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> If Kurt would have said:
> "I do not deny [the existence of] Islamic religion I just do not believe in
> it."
> Would that have made sense to you?

It would have made far more sense, but that's not what he wrote.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:48 EST 2005
Article: 1043960 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.survivalism,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohoax in One Easy Lesson
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:29:49 +0300
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In article , jaz@samizdat.net (JaZ)
wrote:

> Holocaust Revisionism in One Easy Lesson
> By John "Birdman" Bryant
> 
> 
> The term 'historical revisionism' was first used to apply to the work
> of historian Harry Elmer Barnes and his associates, whose earliest
> historical work was motivated by the belief that the generally-
> accepted versions of events of the First World War not only harbored
> serious errors, but were heavily influenced by the biases of the
> institutions which underwrote the "Court Historians" responsible for
> these versions. 

Source: *The Oxford English Dictionary*,
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50205493?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=revisionism&first=1&max_to_show=10


Politics .

     1. A policy first put forward in the 1890s by Edward Bernstein
(1850-1932) advocating the introduction of socialism through evolution
rather than revolution, in opposition to the orthodox view of Marxists;
hence a term of abuse used within the communist world for an
interpretation of Marxism which is felt to threaten the canonical policy. 
 
   1903 Social-Democrat VII. 84 ( heading )Revisionism in Germany. 1909 E.
C. H ARVEY tr. Bernstein's Evolutionary Socialism p. xxii, Subsequently
the views put forward in the book have received the bye-name of
Revisionism. 1934 P. &I. P ETROFF Secret of Hitler's Victory iii. 40 In
the social democratic ranks extreme revisionism predominated. 1947
Partisan Rev. XIV. 396 It is permissible, is it orthodoxy or revisionism,
for a Marxist to take any significant ideas from the prevailing fashion of
the Œneo-Kantian¹ revival? 1958 Times 4 Aug. 7/2 It is not only over
Yugoslav Œrevisionism¹ that China has lately taken a distinctive and
uncompromising attitude. 1959 M. S. L EVIN tr. Lenin's Against Revisionism
122 The ideological struggle waged by revolutionary Marxism against
revisionism at the end of the nineteenth century is but the prelude to the
great revolutionary battles of the proletariat. 1962 Listener 8 Mar. 404/2
Russian Khrushchevian revisionism. 1965 New Statesman 18 June 945/2 China
was going to fight Soviet revisionism to the bitter end. 1969 A. G. F RANK
Latin Amer. (1970) xiv. 221 There exists no dual society in the world
today and all attempts to find one are attempts to justify and/or cover up
imperialism and revisionism. 1975 J. D EBRES tr. Mandel's Late Capitalism
xvi. 517 Cheprakov's revisionism is here unequivocally spelt out. 
 

     2. A term used for a revised attitude to some previously accepted
political situation, doctrine, or point of view; concr. , the name of the
policy adopted by a right-wing Zionist group, active during the formative
period of the State of Israel; mostly U.S. , a movement to revise the
accepted versions of American history, esp. those relating to foreign
affairs since the war of 1939-45. 
 
   1921 Glasgow Herald 4 Apr. 10 The British Foreign Office has got over
its momentary lapse into revisionism. 1932 Palestine Post 25 Dec. 6/2 The
leader of the Revisionism, Jabotinsky. 1939 G. F. H UDSON Turkey, Greece &
E. Mediterranean (1940) 28 Turkey, Greece, Rumania, and Jugoslavia
therefore left out Bulgaria, and concluded between themselves a pact of
mutual guarantee, the foundation of the so-called Balkan Entente (9 Feb.
1934). This was in effect an alliance against Bulgarian revisionism, just
as the Little Entente was an alliance against Hungarian revisionism. 1940
Economist 6 Apr. 606/2 The Near Eastern States offer a happy
hunting-ground to the roving ambition of predatory Great Powers. Once
again, it is a question of revisionism versus the status quo .1949
KOESTLER Promise & Fulfilment III .302 The conflict between Revisionism
and official Zionism was mainly one of character and temperament. 1953 J.
A. L UKACS Great Powers & E. Europe p. viii, The somewhat vague concept of
historical revisionism is applicable only when there is an abundance of
well-documented historical writing which, because of its unilateral
emphasis or perspective, needs to be counter~balanced. Ibid. III .282
Ribbentrop..termed the Russian attitude [over Finland] as Œreasonable¹,
stemming from an aim of Œmodest revisionism¹. 1959 Encounter Sept. 64/2 A
humanistic revisionism can be secured only by revising the claims of
science itself. 1960 S. G. E VANS Short Hist. Bulgaria v. 175 The extent
of German economic penetration and the degree of national chauvinism in
the ruling class, leading to a clamant revisionism, plus the fact that
Hitler appeared to be winning, made it certain that they would turn the
way they did. 1965 New Statesman 1 Oct. 486/2 One linguistic difference
between American and British historians lies in the frequency with which
they use the word Œrevisionism¹. It is common currency in Transatlantic
seminars and journals, but hardly ever heard in this country. Ibid.
,ŒRevisionism¹ goes on all the time because of disagreement about the
moral and political significance of what happened. 1973 in R. Staar
Yearbk. on Internat. Communist Affairs 80 The fact that the work was not
condemned or suppressed, but indeed approved..by Georgian authorities,
until Moscow intervened, indicated that historiographical Œrevisionism¹
was rife in the republic. 1977 Time 15 Aug. 26/1 Revisionism is starting
on Johnson as it has started on other Presidents. 


On "historical revisionism", particularly as the term has come to be
understood with regard to the Holocaust, see e.g.
http://www.answers.com/topic/historical-revisionism-political.

> Barnes, however, noted that historical revisionism --
> "The effort to correct the historical record in the light of a more
> complete collection of historical facts, a more calm political
> atmosphere, and a more objective attitude" in his words (Barnes Review
> Oct 94: 3) -- was itself an activity with a very long history, going
> back at least as far as the exposure of the forgery of the "Donation
> of Constantine" by Lorenzo Valla (1407-57).
> 
> The subject which has attracted the most attention in historical
> revisionism, both among scholars who contribute to the revisionist
> literature, and those who are interested in the results of revisionist
> work, is Holocaust revisionism, ie, the examination of the supposed
> genociding of Jews in the Third Reich. 

Stop right here. The Holocaust is *not* and never has been "the supposed
genociding of Jews in the Third Reich", but rather the genociding of
European Jews in the Third Reich, that is to say, Nazi Germany, as well as
in countries controlled by or allied with it. More than 95% of the victims
of the Holocaust were citizens of countries *other* than the Third Reich;
half of them were in Poland alone. The Holocaust is not merely a genocide,
but also an unprecented effort by one country to ethnically cleanse an
entire continent. Jews were not the only victims of these efforts.
Gypsies, certain Slavic populations, and mental defectives were also
victims of this misanthropic policy.

> The generally-accepted version
> of this event -- or, more properly, this NON-event -- is what I call
> the Orthodox Jewish Version of the Holocaust, or OJV for short, which
> holds in its present version that the nazis killed 'six million' Jews
> in 'gas chambers'. 

Nonsense again. Mass-gassing started seriously with the opening of the
Chelmno pilot extermiantion camp on December 7, 1941
[http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/chelmno.html]. Before that, however,
the Einsatzgruppen working with the SD, SS, and SP had followed the
advancing Wehrmacht and organized mass shootings along the eastern front,
>from Tallinn in Estonia in the extreme north, to the Crimean Peninsula in
the Ukraine in the extreme south
[http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/trials/authenticityofreports.html].
Mass gassings became the favored option for killing economically
expendable Jews only after the logistical, economic, and public relations
problems of killing all local Jews in public mass shootings became
apparent.

> As it happens, however, there are numerous problems
> with the OJV. The following is a list of the major ones.
> 
> * The 'evidence' for the OJV consists primarily of the records of the
> court proceedings of the Nuremberg trials. 

The evidence includes:
- the action reports ("Ereignismeldungen") kept in real time by the
Einsatzguppen
[http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/jaeger-report/index.shtml],

- the court records documenting the arrest, execution, and confiscstion of
property of individual Jews [e.g.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ftp.py?places//estonia/usenet.9906], 
- the expert witness testimony of perpetrators [e.g.
http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/lessons/intro/tour/sites/hoesstest.html],

- the trial records of perpetrators [e.g.
http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html], 
- the sworn statements of participants [e.g.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/muench.hans/ftp.py?people/m/muench.hans//auschwitz-declaration.950127],
- surreptitiously recorded accounts told by perpetrators [e.g.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/ ], 
- the expert witness testimony of victims [e.g.
http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/Tauber/Tauber01.htm], 
- forensic examinations of the gas chambers [e.g.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/], 
- exhumations of mass graves [e.g. http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html],
- the meticulously maintained dossiers on individual Holocaust victims
kept by the Red Cross organizations in some Holocaust countries [e.g.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar55.html  ].

> As it happens, however,
> vengeful Jews were largely in charge of these trials. 

If the Holocaust did not even happen, why should Jews be vengeful?

> General principel
> (According to
> Louis Marshalko in his book The World Conquerers, of the 3000 persons
> on the trial staff, 2400 were Jews.) Adding to the problem was the
> fact that (1) there was no historical precedent for war crimes trials
> in which only the vanquished were called to account for their actions;
> and (2) these trials violated the fundamental principle of fairness
> that no one is to be tried for violating a law that was instituted 'ex
> post facto', ie, after the crime was committed.

General principles for waging war had been agreed on after WW I and by the
League of Nations. The Soviet Union's undeclared attack on Finland in 1939
had gotten it kicked out of the League, and Nazi Germany also violated the
same rules, for which it was eventually accused of the crimes of Waging
Aggressive War and Crimes against Humanity
 
> * 'Confessions' used in the trial were highly dubious, since many were
> extracted by torture or or other unethical means, such as threatening
> the families of the accused (According to British scholar Vivian Bird,
> more than one hundred German defendants had their testicles beaten to
> a pulp by 'interrogators'.) Two confessions were particularly
> egregious: That of Rudolf Hoss, commandant of Auschwitz, which was
> (among other things) written in a language he did not even understand,

Hoess on his activities while in prison during the late 1920s: 

"During my free time I eagerly studied the English language, and had 
books of instruction in it sent to me. Later I arranged for a 
continuous supply of English books and periodicals, and consequently I 
was able, in about a year, to learn this language without any outside 
assistance. I found this a tremendous mental corrective." 

Rudolf Hoess, *Commandant of Auschwitz. The Autobiography of Rudolf 
Hoess*, translated by Constantine FitzGibbon, Phoenix Press, London, 
2000, pg. 58. 


The rest of this continues this miserable track record of sloppy
scholarship, innuendo, and mendacity, and is deleted as a waste of
bandwidth.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:48 EST 2005
Article: 1043964 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.survivalism,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohoax in One Easy Lesson
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:20:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , jaz@samizdat.net (JaZ)
wrote:

> Holocaust Revisionism in One Easy Lesson
> By John "Birdman" Bryant


> The idea of 'gas chambers' evidently arose
> from the fact that all the clothes of arriving inmates were
> disinfected in a kind of gas chamber in which Zyklon B was used to
> kill lice which were feared as disease vectors (Lousy Jews?). These
> delousing chambers, it should be noted, were far too small for killing
> people, particularly in the numbers posited by the OJV. 

Some evisionists claim that the large *Vergasungskammer* in Kremas II - V
at Auschwitz-Birkenau were delousing chambers, even though they were large
enough to easily accommodate hundreds of people, as can be seen from the
cross-section of the construction plan of the "leichenkeller" of Krema II:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k2-huta-430921-lkeller1-xsection.jpg

> It should also
> be noted that Zyklon B, the form of cyanide supposedly used to kill
> Jews, was in fact a special form of slow- release cyanide which was
> appropriate for de-lousing clothing, but inappropriate for the
> instantaneous killing that was supposedly done in the "gas chambers".

Nonsense. Concentrations of cyanide reached levels lethal for humans (>
300 ppm) within a few minutes.

> (The irony of Germans being accused of killing Jews by an instrument
> which they (Germans) used for preserving Jewish lives should not go
> unnoticed.) In addition, as revisionists have noted, such killings
> would have been impossible on the scale claimed by the OJV because
> cyanide is so dangerous that the bodies would have had to lie for
> hours before they could be safely removed, even by those wearing
> protective clothing and gas masks. 

Nonsense again. Cyanide is volatile and a competent fumigator can
dissipate the levels that were attained within the gas chambers within a
half an hour.

> Beyond this, cyanide gas is
> explosive, so that any little spark, as from the friction of shoes on
> the floor, or any flame, as from a cigaret, would have caused any 'gas
> chamber' to be transported to the place where it was supposedly
> sending Jews.

Cyanide only explodes at concentrations in execess of 60,000 ppm, far in
excess of what is needed killing either people or vermin.

> * Revisionists have proved that the rooms alleged to be 'gas chambers'
> could not possibly have served this purpose. 

No they haven't. One of the leading revisionists, Fred Leuchter, has
argued that the rooms could be fumigated with cyanide but could not be
used for killing people with cyanide, evidently not understanding that it
takes far higher concentrations of cyanide (concentrations as high as
15,000 ppm maintained for 15 hours) to kill vermin than it takes to kill
people (concentrations as low as 300 ppm maintained for 15 minutes).

> The first investigation
> of this problem was done not for the Nuremberg trials, but rather many
> years later by Fred Leuchter, an American engineer and execution
> expert, who took samples from the walls of supposed 'gas chambers' at
> several camps and found that there was essentially no cyanide residue
> -- an impossibility if the rooms had been used as alleged.

Wrong again. The first investigations of this problem were underaken
immediately after the war:

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#iv


IV. History of Forensic Reports 

>From shortly after the war to the present there have been a number of
forensic analyses conducted on facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau including
legitimate investigations as well as those conducted by Holocaust
deniers.  This section will give a brief history of those reports. 
Section V. will address in more detail the chemistry involved. In 1945 the
Cracow Forensic Institute did a forensic analysis of the criminal traces
left by the murderers.  Pressac summarizes some of their findings: 

Toxicological analysis were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow
Forensic      Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2
damaged      ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II. 
After scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the
metal, 7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two
qualitative analysis, which established the presence of cyanide compounds.
The report, signed by Dr. Jan Z. Robel, was written on 15th December, 1945
and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn. 24 

Strzelecki describes  other early forensic examinations including the
following: 

In 1945, an examination by the Institute of Judicial Expertise in Krakow
of a sample of hair found in Auschwitz revealed the presence of compounds
of prussic acid, the basic component of Zyklon B gas used in the gas
chambers of Auschwitz.  Traces of the acid were also found in metal
objects found in the hair, such as pins, clasps, and gold-plated spectacle
holders. 25 


[for the references, check the hyperlinks in the oiginal].





> (Altho
> Leuchter's work was flawed, his conclusions have been confirmed
> independently by two other experts, Walter Luftl and Germar Rudolf.)

They both found detectable residues of cyanide in the gas chamber ruins.

> Other problems posed for the OJV by the alleged 'gas chambers' involve
> such things as no air circulatory system for dispersing or ventilating
> the gas, 

Zyklon-B was designed to enable cyanide to be able to used for fumigating
normal rooms, apartments, ships, traincars, tents etc. specifically
lacking such systems.

> no means for heating the Zyklon B discs for proper dispersal,

The cyanide impregnated in Zyklon B evaporates and is emitted as gas into
the ambient air at 25° C, no heating system is needed.

> the fact that the doors of the 'gas chambers' opened from the INSIDE,

Since all but one of the gas chambers at Auschwitz survive as ruins or
foundations, this allegation is impossible to take seriously.

> and that Allied aerial photographs of Auschwitz during the war showed
> no holes in the roof of the supposed 'gas chambers' which would have
> allowed the introduction of Zyklon B -- a point made by Holocaust
> revisionists in their oft-repeated challenge, "No holes; no
> Holocaust!"

One of the most puerile slogans I have ever heard. Solving the task of
introducing Zyklon-B pellets into a sealed enclusure does not require
rocket science.




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:49 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.walmart,alt.revisionism,misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: The Stories of the Camps
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:16:21 +0300
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In article <20050517050559.A29CB170CD@mail.cypherpunks.to>, Anonymous via
the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer  wrote:



> One million dead, tops.

One million dead between 1939 and 1945 would already qualify as a
genocide. nevertheless, I would appreciate a more detailed breakdown of
your figures by country, and your sources for your breakdown.

Specifically, I would like to know how many Holocaust victims you posit
for the following countries:

- Estonia
- Latvia
- Lithuania
- Poland
- Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia
- Slovakia
- Hungary
- Romania
- Greece
- Serbia
- Croatia
- Byelorussia
- Ukraine
- Norway
- Denmark
- Belgium
- France
- Italy
- Luxembourg
- Netherlands


I would also like to know your estimate of the number of people who
succumbed to overwork, mistreatent, and disease, or were killed at the
following camps, and the basis for your estimate:

- Neuengamme and subcamps:
   Ahlem-Hannover 
   Altgarga 
   Altegarde-Elbe 
   Aumund 
   Aurich-Engerhafe 
   Bad Sassendorf 
   Barkhausen 
   Barskamp 
   Baubrigade I, II, V & XI 
   Beendorf-Helmstedt 
   Bergstedt 
   Blummenthal 
   Boizenburg 
   Braunschweig  
   Bremme-Farbe 
   Bremme- Osterort-Reisport 
   Bremme-Schutzenhof 
   Bremme- Vegesack-aumund 
   Bremme-weser 
   Brink-hannover 
   Brunswick-Busing 
   Dalum 
   Dreutte 
   Engerhafe 
   Fallersleben-Laagberg 
   Farge 
   Fidelstedt 
   Finkenwerder 
   Fludwigslust 
   Fulsbuttel 
   Geilenberg 
   Glassau-bei-Sarau 
   Goslar 
   Gross-Fullen 
   Gross- Hesepe 
   Hamburg 
   Hausberge-Porta 
   Helmstadt 
   Hidelsheim 
   Horneburg 
   Howachts-Lütjenburg 
   Kaltenkirch-Heinkaten 
   Kiel 
   Ladelund 
   Langenhagen-Hannover 
   Langenhorn-Hamburg 
   Laasberg 
   Ladelung 
   Lengerich 
   Lerbeck 
   Limmer-Hannover 
   Linden (Mülhenberg-Hannover) 
   Lübberstadt 
   Lujtenberg 
   Meppen 
   Minden 
   Misburg-Hannover 
   Mölln 
   Neesen 
   Neugraben 
   Neuhof 
   Neuland-Bremen 
   Neunkirchen 
   Neustadt 
   Nutzen 
   Ohldorf 
   Osnabruck 
   Osterort (Bremen-Riespot) 
   Poppenbüttel-Sasen 
   Porta-Westfalica - note: 2 kommandos 
   Salzwedel 
   Sandbostel 
   Sasel 
   Salzgitter 
   Schandelah 
   Schützenhof-Bremen 
   Schwessing-Husum 
   Sollstadt 
   Spaldingstrasse 
   Steinwerder 
   Stöcken-Hannover 
   Stuklenwert 
   Tiefstak 
   Uelzen 
   Veleen 
   Veerssen  
   Vegesack-Aumun - Bremen 
   Verden-Aller 
   Wandsbeck 
   Watenstedt-Drütte-Salzgitter 
   Wedel 
   Wilhemsburg-Hamburg 
   Wilhemshaven 
   Wittenberge 
   Wolfsburg 
   Wöbbelin-Ludwigslust 
- Nordhausen
- Sachsenhausen
- Sachsenburg
- Stutthof
- Ravensbrück
- Buchenwald
- Dieburg
- Bergen-Belsen
- Dachau
Dachau and subcamps:
   Allach (Org. Todt) 
   Allach/Karsfeld/Moosach (org. Todt) 
   Allach-Rothwaige (Org. Todt) 
   Allersdorf-Liebhof 
   Ampersmoching 
   Asbach-Baumenheim (Messerschmitt) 
   Aibing (NEU) 
   Aufkrich-Kaufbeuren (Dornier) 
   Augustenfeld-Pollnhof 
   Augsburg (Messerschmitt) 
   Augsburg-Haunstetten 
   Augsburg-Pfersee (Messerschmitt) 
   Bad Ischl 
   Bad Ischl Saint Wolfgang 
   Bad Tolz 
   Baubrigade XIII 
   Bayernsoien 
   Bayrishezell 
   Bichl 
   Birgsau-Oberstdorf 
   Blainach (BMW) 
   Brunigsau 
   Burgau (Messerchmitt) 
   Burghausen 
   Burgkirchen 
   Donauworth 
   Durach-Kottern (Messerschmitt) 
   Eching (Org. Todt) 
   Ellwagen 
   Emmerting-Gendorf 
   Eschelbach 
   Feistenau 
   Feldafing 
   Fischbachau 
   Fischen (Messerschmitt) 
   Fischhorn/Bruck 
   Freising 
   Friedolfing 
   Friedrischaffen 
   Fulpmes 
   Fussen-Plansee 
   Gablingen (Messerschmitt) 
   Garmisch-Partenkirchen 
   Germering-Neuaubing 
   Gmund 
   Grimolsried-Mitteneuf-Nach (Org. Todt) 
   Halfing 
   Hallein 
   Hausham-Vordereckard 
   Heidenhaim 
   Heppenhaim 
   Horgau-Pfersee (Messerschmitt) 
   Ingoldstadt 
   Innsbruck 
   Itter 
   Karlsfeld (Org. Todt) 
   Kaufbeuren (BMW) 
   Kaufering (Org Todt/Messerschmitt/Dornier) 
   Kaufering Erpfting 
   Hurlach 
   Landsberg 
   Lechfeld 
   Mittel-Neufnach 
   Riederloh 
   Schwabbeg 
   Schwabmunchen 
   Turkenfald 
   Turkheim 
   Utting 
   Kempten-Kotern 
   Konigsee 
   Krucklhalm 
   Landshut-Bayern (Org. Todt) 
   Lauingen (Messerschmitt) 
   Liebhof 
   Lind 
   Lochau 
   Lochhausen (BMW) 
   Lohof 
   Markt Schwabben 
   Moosach (Org. Todt/BMW/Messerschmitt) 
   Moschendorf-Hof 
   Muldorf (Org. Todt) 
   Muldorf Ampfing-Waldlager V et VI 
   Mettenheim 
   Obertaufkirchen 
   Munchen 
   Munchen Friedman 
   Munchen Riem (Org. Todt) 
   Munchen Schwabing 
   Munchen Sendling 
   Neuburg Donau 
   Neufahrn 
   Neustift 
   Nuremberg 
   Oberdorf 
   Oberfohring 
   Ottobrunn 
   Oetztal 
   Passau 
   Puchheim 
   Radolfzell 
   Rohrdorf-Thansau 
   Rosenheim 
   Rothschwaige-Augustenfeld (Org. Todt) 
   St. Gilden/Wolgansee 
   St. Lambrecht 
   Salzburg 
   Salzweg 
   Sandhoffen 
   Saulgau 
   Schlachters-Sigmarszell 
   Schleissheim 
   Seehausen-Uffing 
   Spitzingsee 
   Steinhoring 
   Stephanskirchen (BMW) 
   Strobl 
   Sudelfeld 
   Traustein 
   Trotsberg (BMW) 
   Trutskirch-Tutzing (Dornier) 
   Uerberlingen 
   Ulm 
   Unterschleissheim 
   Valepp 
   Vulpmes 
   Weidach 
   Weilheim 
   Weissensee 
   Wicking 
   Wolfratshausen 
   Wolfratshausen Gelting 
   Wurach-Wolhof 
   Zangberg 
 - Esterwegen
- Flossenburg
- Papenburg
- Mauthausen
- Gross-Rosen
- Ravensbrück
- Chelmno
- Treblinka
- Sobibor
- Belzec
- Auschwitz
- Plaszow
- Pustkow
- Theresienstadt
- Breendock
- Vaivara
- Lagedi
- Klooga
- Natzwiler-Struthof- Amerfoort
- Ommen
- Zakopane
- Vught
- Fossoli
- Rusuera di San Sabba
- Salaspils
- Kaiserwald
- Dundaga
- Jungfernhof
- Lenta
- Kaunas
- Palemonas
- Pravieniskes
- Volary
- Jadovni
- Kruscica
- Sajmite
- Slano

Finally, I would like to know your assessment of the veracity of reports
such as that compiled by Karl Jäger
(http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/genocide/jaegerReport.html), submitted to
Berlin documenting the killings performed along the Eastern Front by the
Einsatzgruppen.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:49 EST 2005
Article: 1043973 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: The Stories of the Camps
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:18:55 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 327
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In article <20050517050559.A29CB170CD@mail.cypherpunks.to>, Anonymous via
the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer  wrote:



> One million dead, tops.

One million dead between 1939 and 1945 would already qualify as a
genocide. nevertheless, I would appreciate a more detailed breakdown of
your figures by country, and your sources for your breakdown.

Specifically, I would like to know how many Holocaust victims you posit
for the following countries:

- Estonia
- Latvia
- Lithuania
- Poland
- Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia
- Slovakia
- Hungary
- Romania
- Greece
- Serbia
- Croatia
- Byelorussia
- Ukraine
- Norway
- Denmark
- Belgium
- France
- Italy
- Luxembourg
- Netherlands


I would also like to know your estimate of the number of people who
succumbed to overwork, mistreatent, and disease, or were killed at the
following camps, and the basis for your estimate:

- Neuengamme and subcamps:
   Ahlem-Hannover 
   Altgarga 
   Altegarde-Elbe 
   Aumund 
   Aurich-Engerhafe 
   Bad Sassendorf 
   Barkhausen 
   Barskamp 
   Baubrigade I, II, V & XI 
   Beendorf-Helmstedt 
   Bergstedt 
   Blummenthal 
   Boizenburg 
   Braunschweig  
   Bremme-Farbe 
   Bremme- Osterort-Reisport 
   Bremme-Schutzenhof 
   Bremme- Vegesack-aumund 
   Bremme-weser 
   Brink-hannover 
   Brunswick-Busing 
   Dalum 
   Dreutte 
   Engerhafe 
   Fallersleben-Laagberg 
   Farge 
   Fidelstedt 
   Finkenwerder 
   Fludwigslust 
   Fulsbuttel 
   Geilenberg 
   Glassau-bei-Sarau 
   Goslar 
   Gross-Fullen 
   Gross- Hesepe 
   Hamburg 
   Hausberge-Porta 
   Helmstadt 
   Hidelsheim 
   Horneburg 
   Howachts-Lütjenburg 
   Kaltenkirch-Heinkaten 
   Kiel 
   Ladelund 
   Langenhagen-Hannover 
   Langenhorn-Hamburg 
   Laasberg 
   Ladelung 
   Lengerich 
   Lerbeck 
   Limmer-Hannover 
   Linden (Mülhenberg-Hannover) 
   Lübberstadt 
   Lujtenberg 
   Meppen 
   Minden 
   Misburg-Hannover 
   Mölln 
   Neesen 
   Neugraben 
   Neuhof 
   Neuland-Bremen 
   Neunkirchen 
   Neustadt 
   Nutzen 
   Ohldorf 
   Osnabruck 
   Osterort (Bremen-Riespot) 
   Poppenbüttel-Sasen 
   Porta-Westfalica - note: 2 kommandos 
   Salzwedel 
   Sandbostel 
   Sasel 
   Salzgitter 
   Schandelah 
   Schützenhof-Bremen 
   Schwessing-Husum 
   Sollstadt 
   Spaldingstrasse 
   Steinwerder 
   Stöcken-Hannover 
   Stuklenwert 
   Tiefstak 
   Uelzen 
   Veleen 
   Veerssen  
   Vegesack-Aumun - Bremen 
   Verden-Aller 
   Wandsbeck 
   Watenstedt-Drütte-Salzgitter 
   Wedel 
   Wilhemsburg-Hamburg 
   Wilhemshaven 
   Wittenberge 
   Wolfsburg 
   Wöbbelin-Ludwigslust 
- Nordhausen
- Sachsenhausen
- Sachsenburg
- Stutthof
- Ravensbrück
- Buchenwald
- Dieburg
- Bergen-Belsen
- Dachau and subcamps:
   Allach (Org. Todt) 
   Allach/Karsfeld/Moosach (org. Todt) 
   Allach-Rothwaige (Org. Todt) 
   Allersdorf-Liebhof 
   Ampersmoching 
   Asbach-Baumenheim (Messerschmitt) 
   Aibing (NEU) 
   Aufkrich-Kaufbeuren (Dornier) 
   Augustenfeld-Pollnhof 
   Augsburg (Messerschmitt) 
   Augsburg-Haunstetten 
   Augsburg-Pfersee (Messerschmitt) 
   Bad Ischl 
   Bad Ischl Saint Wolfgang 
   Bad Tolz 
   Baubrigade XIII 
   Bayernsoien 
   Bayrishezell 
   Bichl 
   Birgsau-Oberstdorf 
   Blainach (BMW) 
   Brunigsau 
   Burgau (Messerchmitt) 
   Burghausen 
   Burgkirchen 
   Donauworth 
   Durach-Kottern (Messerschmitt) 
   Eching (Org. Todt) 
   Ellwagen 
   Emmerting-Gendorf 
   Eschelbach 
   Feistenau 
   Feldafing 
   Fischbachau 
   Fischen (Messerschmitt) 
   Fischhorn/Bruck 
   Freising 
   Friedolfing 
   Friedrischaffen 
   Fulpmes 
   Fussen-Plansee 
   Gablingen (Messerschmitt) 
   Garmisch-Partenkirchen 
   Germering-Neuaubing 
   Gmund 
   Grimolsried-Mitteneuf-Nach (Org. Todt) 
   Halfing 
   Hallein 
   Hausham-Vordereckard 
   Heidenhaim 
   Heppenhaim 
   Horgau-Pfersee (Messerschmitt) 
   Ingoldstadt 
   Innsbruck 
   Itter 
   Karlsfeld (Org. Todt) 
   Kaufbeuren (BMW) 
   Kaufering (Org Todt/Messerschmitt/Dornier) 
   Kaufering Erpfting 
   Hurlach 
   Landsberg 
   Lechfeld 
   Mittel-Neufnach 
   Riederloh 
   Schwabbeg 
   Schwabmunchen 
   Turkenfald 
   Turkheim 
   Utting 
   Kempten-Kotern 
   Konigsee 
   Krucklhalm 
   Landshut-Bayern (Org. Todt) 
   Lauingen (Messerschmitt) 
   Liebhof 
   Lind 
   Lochau 
   Lochhausen (BMW) 
   Lohof 
   Markt Schwabben 
   Moosach (Org. Todt/BMW/Messerschmitt) 
   Moschendorf-Hof 
   Muldorf (Org. Todt) 
   Muldorf Ampfing-Waldlager V et VI 
   Mettenheim 
   Obertaufkirchen 
   Munchen 
   Munchen Friedman 
   Munchen Riem (Org. Todt) 
   Munchen Schwabing 
   Munchen Sendling 
   Neuburg Donau 
   Neufahrn 
   Neustift 
   Nuremberg 
   Oberdorf 
   Oberfohring 
   Ottobrunn 
   Oetztal 
   Passau 
   Puchheim 
   Radolfzell 
   Rohrdorf-Thansau 
   Rosenheim 
   Rothschwaige-Augustenfeld (Org. Todt) 
   St. Gilden/Wolgansee 
   St. Lambrecht 
   Salzburg 
   Salzweg 
   Sandhoffen 
   Saulgau 
   Schlachters-Sigmarszell 
   Schleissheim 
   Seehausen-Uffing 
   Spitzingsee 
   Steinhoring 
   Stephanskirchen (BMW) 
   Strobl 
   Sudelfeld 
   Traustein 
   Trotsberg (BMW) 
   Trutskirch-Tutzing (Dornier) 
   Uerberlingen 
   Ulm 
   Unterschleissheim 
   Valepp 
   Vulpmes 
   Weidach 
   Weilheim 
   Weissensee 
   Wicking 
   Wolfratshausen 
   Wolfratshausen Gelting 
   Wurach-Wolhof 
   Zangberg 
- Esterwegen
- Flossenburg
- Papenburg
- Mauthausen
- Gross-Rosen
- Ravensbrück
- Chelmno
- Treblinka
- Sobibor
- Belzec
- Auschwitz
- Plaszow
- Pustkow
- Theresienstadt
- Breendock
- Vaivara
- Lagedi
- Klooga
- Natzwiler-Struthof- Amerfoort
- Ommen
- Zakopane
- Vught
- Fossoli
- Rusuera di San Sabba
- Salaspils
- Kaiserwald
- Dundaga
- Jungfernhof
- Lenta
- Kaunas
- Palemonas
- Pravieniskes
- Volary
- Jadovni
- Kruscica
- Sajmite
- Slano

Finally, I would like to know your assessment of the veracity of reports
such as that compiled by Karl Jäger
(http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/genocide/jaegerReport.html), submitted to
Berlin documenting the killings performed along the Eastern Front by the
Einsatzgruppen.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:50 EST 2005
Article: 1043975 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.survivalism,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohoax in One Easy Lesson
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:46:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 49
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In article <118jsdr2impv1ee@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote
> 
> [...]
> 
> >
> > Hoess on his activities while in prison during the late 1920s:
> >
> > "During my free time I eagerly studied the English language, and had
> > books of instruction in it sent to me. Later I arranged for a
> > continuous supply of English books and periodicals, and consequently I
> > was able, in about a year, to learn this language without any outside
> > assistance. I found this a tremendous mental corrective."
> >
> > Rudolf Hoess, *Commandant of Auschwitz. The Autobiography of Rudolf
> > Hoess*, translated by Constantine FitzGibbon, Phoenix Press, London,
> > 2000, pg. 58.
> > 
> >
> 
> Hoess must have been a gifted linguist, maybe almost like yourself.

Probably not. He hardly ever got Polish names right ("Turblinka",
"Wolzek"). On the other hand, he spent five years in prison for murder and
decided to learn learn English in order to keep sane. 

> It took me years to become half-way fluent in the English language, with the
> odd irregular differences between that language's spellings and
> pronounciations.

If he had good books they would have used the International Phonetic
Alphabet or its equivalent. Langenscheidt was producing quite competent
material of this type for self-tuition in foreign languages during the
1920s.

> And apparently he studied English from books only, without an instructor!
> Amazing. Extraordinary. Hut ab!

English and German are closely enough related for tmany of the differences
to be systematic. For a German learning to read and speak English is an
easier task than learning to read and speak French, Russian, Finnish,
Hungarian, Turkish, Xhosa, Georgian, Quechua, or Japanese. Learning Dutch,
Afrikaans, or Danish, on the other hand, would be even easier for most
Germans.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:50 EST 2005
Article: 1043982 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.survivalism,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohoax in One Easy Lesson
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:58:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Now lets see Eugene all other experts are not really experts unless the are
> approved by you holohoaxers. 

Not true. Different sides are able to reach agreements on whether a person
has the qualifications to be an expert. Note that even Leuchter has
admitted that he lacked the qualifications to work in the position he was
working in or to give expert opinions on engineering or execution
technology at court trials.

> Is this not a great game. Just as it goes in
> the real world with the law society where the main objective is to
> disqualify the experts from the other side. As for Leuchter opinion he is
> now a holocaust denier by your words. But then a gain is the Jewish version
> the only accepted way everyone else has to adhere to.

As we see below, the mistakes made by both Leuchter and the original
poster show ignorance and incompetence. 

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-1705051420130001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> > In article , jaz@samizdat.net (JaZ)
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Holocaust Revisionism in One Easy Lesson
> > > By John "Birdman" Bryant
> >
> > 
> > > The idea of 'gas chambers' evidently arose
> > > from the fact that all the clothes of arriving inmates were
> > > disinfected in a kind of gas chamber in which Zyklon B was used to
> > > kill lice which were feared as disease vectors (Lousy Jews?). These
> > > delousing chambers, it should be noted, were far too small for killing
> > > people, particularly in the numbers posited by the OJV.
> >
> > Some evisionists claim that the large *Vergasungskammer* in Kremas II - V
> > at Auschwitz-Birkenau were delousing chambers, even though they were large
> > enough to easily accommodate hundreds of people, as can be seen from the
> > cross-section of the construction plan of the "leichenkeller" of Krema II:
> >
>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k2-huta-430921-lkeller1-xsection.jpg

The construction diagrams and blueprints on the page indicate that the
*Leichenkeller* were of considerable area and volume.

> > > It should also
> > > be noted that Zyklon B, the form of cyanide supposedly used to kill
> > > Jews, was in fact a special form of slow- release cyanide which was
> > > appropriate for de-lousing clothing, but inappropriate for the
> > > instantaneous killing that was supposedly done in the "gas chambers".
> >
> > Nonsense. Concentrations of cyanide reached levels lethal for humans (>
> > 300 ppm) within a few minutes.

The writer of the original made an easily debunked factual error. Zyklon-B
ougassed concentrations of cyanide that would be lethal to humans within a
few minutes.

> > > (The irony of Germans being accused of killing Jews by an instrument
> > > which they (Germans) used for preserving Jewish lives should not go
> > > unnoticed.) In addition, as revisionists have noted, such killings
> > > would have been impossible on the scale claimed by the OJV because
> > > cyanide is so dangerous that the bodies would have had to lie for
> > > hours before they could be safely removed, even by those wearing
> > > protective clothing and gas masks.
> >
> > Nonsense again. Cyanide is volatile and a competent fumigator can
> > dissipate the levels that were attained within the gas chambers within a
> > half an hour.
> >
> > > Beyond this, cyanide gas is
> > > explosive, so that any little spark, as from the friction of shoes on
> > > the floor, or any flame, as from a cigaret, would have caused any 'gas
> > > chamber' to be transported to the place where it was supposedly
> > > sending Jews.
> >
> > Cyanide only explodes at concentrations in excess of 60,000 ppm, far in
> > excess of what is needed killing either people or vermin.

Another example of non-existent schlarship. If what the poster wrote were
correct, it would be impossible to use the cyanide generated by Zyklon-B
for delousinbg purposes, an obvious absurdity.

> > > * Revisionists have proved that the rooms alleged to be 'gas chambers'
> > > could not possibly have served this purpose.
> >
> > No they haven't. One of the leading revisionists, Fred Leuchter, has
> > argued that the rooms could be fumigated with cyanide but could not be
> > used for killing people with cyanide, evidently not understanding that it
> > takes far higher concentrations of cyanide (concentrations as high as
> > 15,000 ppm maintained for 15 hours) to kill vermin than it takes to kill
> > people (concentrations as low as 300 ppm maintained for 15 minutes).

Leuchter did not understand that even though using Zyklon-B to kill lice
involves far higher concentrations of cyanide than using it to kill people
would, both procedures are easily controlled by a competent exterminator
and can be safely implemented in normally constructed buiuldings, rooms,
etc. without constituting an undue hazard to the environment.

> > > The first investigation
> > > of this problem was done not for the Nuremberg trials, but rather many
> > > years later by Fred Leuchter, an American engineer and execution
> > > expert, who took samples from the walls of supposed 'gas chambers' at
> > > several camps and found that there was essentially no cyanide residue
> > > -- an impossibility if the rooms had been used as alleged.
> >
> > Wrong again. The first investigations of this problem were underaken
> > immediately after the war:
> >
> > Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#iv
> >
> > 
> > IV. History of Forensic Reports
> >
> > From shortly after the war to the present there have been a number of
> > forensic analyses conducted on facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau including
> > legitimate investigations as well as those conducted by Holocaust
> > deniers.  This section will give a brief history of those reports.
> > Section V. will address in more detail the chemistry involved. In 1945 the
> > Cracow Forensic Institute did a forensic analysis of the criminal traces
> > left by the murderers.  Pressac summarizes some of their findings:
> >
> > Toxicological analysis were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow
> > Forensic      Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2
> > damaged      ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II.
> > After scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the
> > metal, 7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two
> > qualitative analysis, which established the presence of cyanide compounds.
> > The report, signed by Dr. Jan Z. Robel, was written on 15th December, 1945
> > and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn. 24
> >
> > Strzelecki describes  other early forensic examinations including the
> > following:
> >
> > In 1945, an examination by the Institute of Judicial Expertise in Krakow
> > of a sample of hair found in Auschwitz revealed the presence of compounds
> > of prussic acid, the basic component of Zyklon B gas used in the gas
> > chambers of Auschwitz.  Traces of the acid were also found in metal
> > objects found in the hair, such as pins, clasps, and gold-plated spectacle
> > holders. 25
> >
> >
> > [for the references, check the hyperlinks in the oiginal].
> > 
> > 

The writer of the original did not bother to de even a superficial study
of the issue, once again revealing sloppy scholarship and/or intellectual
dishonesty.


> > > (Altho
> > > Leuchter's work was flawed, 

Why did the writer of the original take the time to inform us *how* it is
flawed? The main flaw is that it presents the results of a qualitative
analysis as the results of a quantitative one, something that no honest
chemist would ever do. Secondly, it explains the undeniable presence of
cyanide compounds on almost half of the samples ­ 14 out of 31 ­ as the
conseuqence of routine fumigation. It then claims that the buildings
lacked the structural attributes to serve as gas chambers, because using
gas to poison people in them would supposedly poison the entire camp.
Nevertheless, Leuchter does not see fumigation as posing an even greater
hazard. Flaws of method and logic of this type are fatal ones.

> > > his conclusions have been confirmed
> > > independently by two other experts, Walter Luftl and Germar Rudolf.)
> >
> > They both found detectable residues of cyanide in the gas chamber ruins.
> >
> > > Other problems posed for the OJV by the alleged 'gas chambers' involve
> > > such things as no air circulatory system for dispersing or ventilating
> > > the gas,
> >
> > Zyklon-B was designed to enable cyanide to be able to used for fumigating
> > normal rooms, apartments, ships, traincars, tents etc. specifically
> > lacking such systems.

The original constructed straw men here.



Whether you want to believe that the Holocaust took place or not is
irrelevant to the issue here. Leuchter was an incompetent charlatan, and
the depth of his incompetence is manifest throughout the Leuchter Report.
There is nothing "Jewish" about pointing this out.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:51 EST 2005
Article: 1044123 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.survivalism,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohoax in One Easy Lesson
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:17:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 14
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> How much convincing did it take to convince laughter 

"laughter" for "Leuchter". You really have a way with words, Kurt.

> would he be allowed to
> present hid view without endangering himself in Germany.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:51 EST 2005
Article: 1044145 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.survivalism,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohoax in One Easy Lesson
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:34:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116397403.306397.292750@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
colonel_blandish@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <118jsdr2impv1ee@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil M=FCller"
> >  wrote:

> >
> > English and German are closely enough related for many of the
> differences
> > to be systematic.
> 
> Eugene, you are being ridiculous.  No one can learn to speak English
> just from books with out some kind of language instruction.  

Wrong. Have you never heard of the Linguaphone method, in use since 1901?
People teach themselves languages all the time, and it is far easier
nowadays with video courses, CD's, and the resources available on the
internet. I have taught myself to read, write, and speak several
languages, including Swedish, Finnish, and Russian and have co-authored
courses for people working alone who need to learn to speak fluent, if
situationally limited, American English, Estonian, Finnish, Swedish,
Russian, and Latvian. In my personal library I have courses and other
material that can be used for self instruction in languages as exotic as
Vepsian, Xhosa, Slovene, Mongolian, and Somali on one's own.

> Even if
> you got some kind of basic reading comprehension you would never being
> able to express yourself verbally or in written form.

Joseph Conrad, Vladimir Nobakov, and Jerzy Kozinsky all succeeded in
learning English on their own as adults well enough to become the authors
of highly regarded literature in that language, thank you very much. Here
in Finland most thirteen-year olds can read write and speak their native
language (Finnish or Swedish), the other official language (Swedish or
Finnish), English, and one additional foreign language (German, French,
Spanish, Portuguese, or Russian). Many members of established minorities
as well as recent immigrants also receive so-called home language
instruction, so that they can also learn to speak, and often write, the
language spoken by their parents and grandparents (typically Inari Sámi,
Skolt Sámi, Roma [= Gyspy], Tatar; Russian, Estonian, Somali, Kurdish,
Arabic, Vietnamese, Farsi, or Chinese).

> I know because I have learn languages - albeit not particularly
> successfully.

Your limited of success means that you lack either an effective method or
the motivation. You are writing from Australia, a country where there is
not much motivation to study foreign languages up to the level of fluent
spoken and written competency, but Hoess lived in Germany, a country where
it is not unusual for quite normal people to have a reasonably fluent
command of two, three, or even four foreign languages. Hoess, born in
Baden-Baden, spent his earliest years in a place a few hours away from
borders behind which French, Flemish, Letzeburgesh, Schwyzertüütsch, and
Alsatian were spoken. His native Swabian dialect was also distinct enough
>from the north-eastern German of the Berlin bureaucracy for him to have
already had considerable practical experience mapping closely related
speech forms onto his own speech.

> 
> You know it because you have learnt German yourself.

No. I was taught German. I taught myself Swedish, Finnish, and Russian.

> I wonder how many years it took you and what sort of tuition was
> necessary before you felt able to write something the length and
> fluency of the confession.

We had German five periods a week for three years. We were conversing
fluently right from the beginning and writing compositions and simple
letters within a few months. We started learning German in the autumn of
1958 as 13 and 14-year olds, and many of us were  happily corresponding
with penfriends in Germany the next spring.

This was in New York City during the late 1950s. There were radio
broadcasts, newspapers, and other media in German, if you knew where to
look.

In our high school foreign language instruction was taken very seriously
and we had native speakers as teachers, so we got used to using German in
the classroom right from the start. We made extensive use of rote
memorization of dialogues (not words or paradigms) and role playing, with
grammatical analysis coming only later. In addition to memorizing and
performing dialogues and conversations from our textbooks, we also learned
dozens of German poems and songs, acted in skits and plays, and discussed
the increasingly more difficult plays, short stories, and novels that we
could read by our second year.

We were studying other subjects as well, but after a year of instruction
we could all read and write German with reasonable fluency, indeed we had
to. After three years of such teaching I had no difficulty at all
speaking, reading, and writing German with native speakers, even if they
had thick local accents, as many Germans do, and was able to work at a
summer job in Germany that involved interacting with the public.

I know from my own experience working with exchange students that a person
can acquire a fluent spoken command of most languages, even "difficult"
ones like non-Indo-European Finnish, in three months with the proper
motivation and instruction. Learning to write is easier for some people,
more difficult for others.

> Actually Hoess never said he learnt English in jail. 

Yes he did:

Hoess on his activities while in prison during the late 1920s:

"During my free time I eagerly studied the English language, and had
books of instruction in it sent to me. Later I arranged for a
continuous supply of English books and periodicals, and consequently I
was able, in about a year, to learn this language without any outside
assistance. I found this a tremendous mental corrective."

Rudolf Hoess, *Commandant of Auschwitz. The Autobiography of Rudolf
Hoess*, translated by Constantine FitzGibbon, Phoenix Press, London,
2000, pg. 58.


> It was simply
> contained in his Autobiography - written by the Polish communists.

That is an unfounded allegation. Hoess realized that he had a unique story
to tell and he was driven by this realization to commit them to paper.

Hoess also stated that he understood English when he signed the affidavit
that was read at Kaltenbrunner's trial in Nuremberg, where Hoess delivered
testimony as an expert witness, this time in German. There he agreed that
the declaration  according to which he understood English as written in
the affidavit that he had delivered and signed was true to his own
knowledge:

Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/hoesstest.html



COL. AMEN: Now, I will omit Paragraphs 8 and 9, which have to do with the
medical experiments as to which you have already testified. 
"10. Rudolf Mildner was the chief of the Gestapo at Katowice . . . from
approximately March 1941 until September 1943. As such, he frequently sent
prisoners to Auschwitz for incarceration or execution. He visited
Auschwitz on several occasions. The Gestapo court, the SS Standgericht,
which tried persons accused of various crimes, such as escaping prisoners
of war, et cetera, ?frequently met within Auschwitz, and Mildner often
attended the trial of such persons, who usually were executed in Auschwitz
following their sentence. I showed Mildner through the extermination plant
at Auschwitz and he was directly interested in it since he had to send the
Jews from his territory for execution at Auschwitz. 
"I understand English as it is written above. The above statements are
true; this declaration is made by me voluntarily and without compulsion;
after reading over the statement I have signed and executed the same at
Nuremberg, Germany, on the fifth day of April 1946." 
Now I ask you, Witness, is everything which I have read to you true to
your own knowledge? 
HOESS: Yes. 




There is nothing unusual about a native speaker of German acquiring a
command of a closely related language such as English within a year,
particularly if he has little else to do and is learning the language as
much for mental therapy as for utilitarian purposes.

Your claim about Hoess's statement that he learned English in prison being
an embellishment added by Polish communists demonstrates itself to be
untenable in the light of the historical record of events that transpired
in April, 1946.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:51 EST 2005
Article: 1044194 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.glorb.com!newspeer2.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Properties and Safe Use of Zyklon B
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:59:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
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References:       <2ep881dehto6vvv86r0gnh0vg91ej9o11n@4ax.com>            <1116038230.378610.124950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>      <1116048363.398343.64910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    <1116259786.512099.100660@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42899bed$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
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In article
<42899bed$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

>  wrote in message 
> news:1116259786.512099.100660@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
> Not according to the eyewitnesses Tauber and Kula. They testified
> specifically that the pellets were withdrawn after all HCN gas was
> discharged. Or did they lie under oath?

Or was the procedure tweaked and improved? There were two mechanically
ventilated gas chambers (Kremas II and its mirror image Krema III), and
two cross-ventilated gas chambers (Kremas IV and V) at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Already the use of different solutions for ventilating the premises
indicates constant improvement based on feedback from previous
experiences.

> There appears to be no witness, survivor or perpetrator, who testified
> that the Zyklon-B pellets were withdrawn earlier.

Nevertheless, there is absolutely no reason to assume that every gassing
in every gas chamber was implemented according to the same rigid
procedure. The considerations that were optimal when two trainloads of
candidates for extermination a week were arriving were not the ones that
would have been optimal when two or three trainloads a day were arriving.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:52 EST 2005
Article: 1044332 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:31:15 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 191
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In article <1116426171.844876.3920@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Morbid
Fungus"  wrote:


> >
> 
> An excellent example of why Revisionists must lose.  

Honest revisionists don't lose.

> Here is a case
> where a Revisionist concedes that Jews might have been killed as
> partisans, and a holocaust promoter immediately jumps in with the
> standard holocaust line: Jews were singled out for murder by the evil
> Nazzies (Gypsies and communists are thrown in as insignificant extras).

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewstr22.htm



Bereits auf den ersten Blick lässt Himmlers Dienstkalender der Jahre
1941/42 einige Akzentsetzungen klarer als bisher hervortreten.
Dokumentiert sind die häufigen Besprechungen Himmlers bei Hitler (und
seine aufschlussreichen Notizen hierzu), der Bedeutungsgewinn der
Waffen-SS mit dem Krieg gegen die Sowjetunion und die regelmässige Präsenz
Himmlers ³vor Ort², in den Brennpunkten von Krieg, Umsiedlung und Mord.
Gleichzeitig ergeben sich neue Details und Informationen zu Entscheidungen
und Planungen zur Vernichtung der europäischen Juden im Zeitraum von
Herbst 1941 bis zum Frühjahr 1942. 
Um ein konkretes Beispiel zu geben: Unter dem 18.12.1941 findet sich eine
- mittlerweile vielzitierte - handschriftliche Vortragsnotiz Himmlers,
welche er sich zum Vortrag bei Hitler im Führerhauptquartier gemacht
hatte: ³Judenfrage / als Partisanen auszurotten.²  Die Editoren deuten
diese Besprechung überzeugend       als Folgeunterredung zu Hitlers Rede
auf der Reichs- und Gauleitertagung in Berlin am 12.12.1941. Dort hatte
Hitler zur Kriegslage im Osten und zum Kriegseintritt der USA Stellung
genommen und (nach den Aufzeichnungen von Joseph Goebbels) die Ermordung
der europäischen Juden noch wäehrend des Krieges angekündigt. Zwei Tage
später führte Himmler weitere Gespräche mit Hitler selbst, mit dem Chef
der Kanzlei des Fuehrers Philipp Bouhler und mit dessen Stellvertreter
Viktor Brack. In den Verantwortungsbereich der beiden letztgenannten fiel
das Euthanasieprogramm und damit die technische Kompetenz zur Ermordung
von Menschen mit Giftgas - Fachwissen, welches man für die neuen
Vernichtungsaufgaben dringend benötigte.  In der Lesart der Herausgeber
des Kalendariums[ 4]  bedeutet Himmlers Vortragsnotiz ³Judenfrage / als
Partisanen auszurotten²  nun, dass sich Himmler hier ³Hitlers Begründung
für die Ermordung der europäischen Juden insgesamt notierte² (S. 294),
gleichsam als eine abschliessende Verständigung über den definitiven Kurs
in der Judenfrage.       Die Tage vom 12.12. bis zum 18.12.1941 erscheinen
somit als Periode der Konkretion einer längst vorhandenen Idee und der
Präzisierung bereits angelaufener Planungen: In den verschiedenen Treffen
und Unterredungen ging es erstens um Richtlinien zur (seit Herbst 1941 im
Gang befindlichen) Ermordung aller Juden in den besetzten sowjetischen
Gebieten. Zweitens wurden die Planungen, Juden mit Gas zu ermorden,
intensiviert, und drittens war die - jedoch in ersten Ansätzen bereits
begonnene -   Vernichtung der deutschen Juden ein wichtiges Thema. Dies
alles ist plausibel und wird gestützt durch die Erkenntnisse zahlreicher
Historiker, welche - allen unterschiedlichen Akzentuierungen zum Trotz -
den Monat  Dezember 1941 als wichtigen Radikalisierungsschub hin zur
planmässigen Vernichtung der europäischen Juden charakterisieren. 



The Jews were regarded as enemies of the Reich and were thus to be
eliminated as partisans ("...als partisanen auszurotten").

> Once the Revisionist concedes "Jews" were killed, it makes no
> difference why they were killed--Jews were singled out for death and
> therefore any claim that there was no holocaust rings hollow.

That is correct:

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/Excerpts/673004a.htm



In einem Befehl des Oberbefehlshabers des Heeres vom Mai 1941 ist
ausgeführt, dass ausser den sonst bekämpften Widersachern der Truppe
diesmal als besonders gefährliches und jede Ordnung zersetzendes Element
aus der Zivilbevölkerung der Träger der jüdisch-bolschewistischen
Weltanschauung entgegentrete (a.a.O., Bl.20). In einem am 4.6.1941
verteilten, vom Armeeoberkommando 17 herausgegebenen Merkblatt
"Richtlinien für das Verhalten der Truppe in Russland" ist ausgeführt,
"der Bolschewismus ist der Todfeind des nationalsozialistischen deutschen
Volkes" ... "dieser Kampf verlangt rücksichtsloses und energisches
Durchgreifen gegen bolschewistische Hetzer, Freischärler, Saboteure, Juden
und restlose Beseitigung jedes aktiven oder passiven Widerstandes."
(a.a.O., Bl.21). In einem weiteren vom AOK 17 an die ihm unterstellten
Truppenteile am 16.6.1941 hinausgegebenen Merkblatt heisst es: "Die Völker
der Sowjetunion sind teilweise Asiaten und stehen unter
bolschewistisch-jüdischer Führung." (a.a.O., Bl.22). In einem an die
Befehlshaber der rückwärtigen Heeresgebiete Nord, Mitte und Süd
gerichteten Befehl des OKH vom 25.7.1941 ist ausgeführt, dass das
hetzerische Wirken der Träger des jüdisch-bolschewistischen Systems
erwarten lasse, dass auch in bisher ruhigen Gebieten der Kleinkrieg wieder
auflebe (a.a.O., Bl.23). In einer Anordnung des Befehlshabers des
rückwärtigen Heeresgebietes vom 16.8.1941 ist ausgeführt, dass die
Mitarbeit der ukrainischen Zivilbevölkerung erstrebt werde. Sabotageakte
seien, sofern der Täter nicht ermittelt werden könne, nicht den Ukrainern,
sondern den Juden und Russen zur Last zu legen (a.a.O., Bl.24). 



Field Marshal Keitel's orders quoted above call for "ruthless and
energetic measures" ("rücksichtsloses und energisches Durchgreifen") to be
used against passive or active resistance offered by specific groups, one
of them being Jews.

> 
> As a matter of fact, the Germans did kill partisans (there was a war
> on, remember?), but not because they were Jews. 

The Germans were also aggressively invading other people's territory, so
it is natural that they were going to face aggressive resistance.
Nevertheless, the above orders singlem out "Bolshevik agitators,
partisans, saboteurs, Jews, and total elimination of all active or passive
resistance". The only group in the list to be specified on the basis of
their ethnicity rather than their anti-German activity is Jews.

> The Germans also killed
> Allied soldiers, a few of whom were Jews. People die in wars.

Irrelevant. Field Marshal Keitel's orders single out Jews as an ethnicity
to be the object of "ruthless and energetic measures" aimed at their
"total elimination". Himmler's *Dienstkalender* entry for December 18,
1941, specifies that Jews are to be equated with partisans and elminated
as such.

> The holocaust lie is that Jews were special victims, singled out for
> horrible "extermination" by the German leadership. 

How do you explain the fact that during the Nazi occupation of Estonia
Jews, including chldren and infants, were arrested and shot for the crime
of "being a Jew and thus a threat to public order". The dossiers for
hundreds of Jews arrested and shot in Estonia during the autumn of 1941
are kept in the collection of the Estonian National Archives, and I have
written about them extensively in AR in the past, e.g.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ftp.py?places//estonia/usenet.9906
Shofar FTP Archive File: places//estonia/usenet.9906 .

It is on the basis of these arrests and summary executions that Estonia
stands out in being characterized as "judenfrei" at the Wannsee Conference
of January 20, 1942
(http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/wannsee/wannsee-konferenz.php).

If you do not accept this, how do you explain this unique characterization
of Estonia and where do you think the approx, 4,400 Estonian Jews
disappeared to between June 22, 1941 and January 20, 1942?

> In fact, in
> proportion to their numbers, the Jews suffered the fewest casualties of
> all the ethnic groups in Europe during the war. The Germans did not
> murder Jews.  

The Germans singled out Jews and Gypsies as two groups to be eliminated by
"ruthless and energetic measures" not on the basis of their actions or
functions, but solely on the basis of their ethnicity. They were regarded
as innate enemies of the Reich, as threats to public order, and treated
accordingly. Even a superficial acquaintance with German policy towards
these two groups, particularly along the Eastern Front, shows that between
the invasion of the USSR and the Wannsee Conference policy towards Jews
was to kill them with no regard to age, gender, or possible economic value
in public mass shootings. Some of these, such as the one in Liepâja
between December 15 and 17, 1941 have been documented in photographs and
films. Others, such as those that took place during the fall of 1941 in
Serniki and Ustinovka left mass graves with hundreds of bodies that have
only recently been partially exhumed. 

The Nazis eventually determined that mass shootings were logistically
difficult to arrange and psychologically taxing on the men entrusted to
carry them out. They developed alternative methodologies of mass murder,
based on their experience and knowhow conducting mass killings of Germans
within the framework of the T-4 euthanasia program, that enabled them to
centralize the killing process and implement it "cleanly" behind closed
doors and, with an additional element of sadism and *Schadenfreude*, with
Jewish *Sonderkommando* members forced to participate in the mass murder
of fellow Jews. A reassessment of the economic impact of killing was also
made. Those Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of Nazism who had skills that
were of value would be made slave laborers, once again with sadism and
*Schadenfreude*, forced to work for the German war effort on a diet and
under a regime that would result in most of them working themselves to
death within a few months only to be replaced by fresh Jews that their
contribution to the German war effort had contributed to capturing. Those
who had no economic value were exterminated as "useless mouths to feed".

> The holocaust is a lie.

No. Claiming that the Holocaust is a lie is a lie.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:52 EST 2005
Article: 1044337 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:01:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Brigadier
General Y No Huy"  wrote:



> Just like Finns are Slavs, but too ashamed.

No, the converse would be closer to the truth, but even that is false.

When asking who the Finns are a distinction has to be made between the
Finnish language, and the people in icreasingly multi-ethnic,
multi-cultural who self-identify as Finns today. For an extreme but
interesting case, check out the pictures of Finnish-born,
Finnish-speaking, Finnish-educated Lola Odusoga, Miss Finland 1996
[http://images.google.fi/images?q=lola+odusoga&hl=fi&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest].

The Finnish language is evidently of northern Eurasian origin. Today it,
like its sister languges Sámi [aka Lappish], Estonian, and Hungarian, is
one of the westernmost outliers of a language family that is still
indigenous to much of northern Eurasia and represented by the minor
Finno-Ugric languages Karelian, Vepsian, Erzya, Moksha, Mari, Komi,
Udmurt, Khanty, and Mansi, as well as by the Samoyed languages Enets,
Nenets, Nganasan, and Selkup [see map at
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/images/langua1_b.jpg].  Finnish is a
Uralic language. The Uralic languages break down into two sub-families:
Finno-Ugric and Samoyed. The Finno Ugric languages are Finnish, Estonian,
Karelian, Vepsian, Livonian, Votian, and Izhorian [Baltic-Finnic or
Fennic]; Erzya and Moksha [Mordvinic]; Mari; Komi and Udmurt [Permic];
Mansi and Khanty [Ob-Ugric] and Hungarian. The Samoyed languages are
enumerated above.

Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, and Vepsian are all closely related enough to
have some mutual comprehenibility. Sámi is more distant, but the
relationship is still obvious. Hungarian is linguistically so different
>from the aforementioned languages that the relationship can only be
appreiated by a person who understands the methods of historical
linguistics (e.g. F käsi = H kéz 'hand, arm'; F silmä = H szem 'eye', F
suu = H saj 'mouth', F sydän = H szív 'heart', F kala = H hal 'fish', F
veri = H vér 'bood', F vesi = H víz 'water', F voi = H vaj 'butter', F
kolme = H három 'three', F neljä = H négy 'four', F viisi (< *viite) = H
öt 'five', F kuusi (< *kuute) = H hat 'six', F pää = H fej 'head', F puoli
= H fél, F puu = H fa, F nuoli = H nyíl 'arrow'; F hapan = H savanyú
'sour'; F mene- = H men- 'go', F ole- = H vol- 'to be', F anta- = H ad-
'to give', F elä- = H el- 'to live', F ui- = H úsz- 'to swim'; F me = H mi
'we'; F te = H ti 'you pl.'; F mi- = H mi 'what'; -F -n = H -n , F -ni = H -m <1sg possessive suffix>, F -si (* -ti) = H -d <2sg
possessive suffix>, F -i- = H -i- , F -l- = H -l ).

Many of the people in northern Russia who self-identify as Russians today
had ancestors a generation or two ago who spoke a Uralic language. So
rather than claim, falsely, that Finns are Slavs it would be more correct
to say that many north-eastern Slavs have some Finno-Ugric or Samoyed
ancestry.

The people who speak a language at any point in time are not necessarily
direct descendants of the people who introduced the language to wherever
it is spoken now. Simple reflection on the history of English as
originally a set of dialects spoken by invaders and settlers from what are
now northwestern Germany and the Netherlands, and the fact that a minority
of native speakers of English today  can claim north-western European
origin brings this point home. Finnish, Estonian, and the other
Baltic-Finnic languages are generally considered to be the westernmost
part of what was once a pre-Indo-European linguistic continuum that once
covered much of western Eurasia and north-eastern Europe. Indo-European
expansion from the south eventually resulted in language shifts to
Indo-European as well as in the disappearance of historically attested
ancient peoples such as the Meryas and the Meshchers who once formed the
bridge between Baltic-Finnic and the Morvdin dialects. 

The introduction of agriculture to north-eastern Europe by the
Indo-European-speaking Balts, the ancestors of the Lithuanians and
Latvians, as well as of the now extinct Prussians and some other peoples
that once inhabited what is now Belarus, meant a surge in population as
well as language shifts and assimilations of populations.  Later invasions
of various Germanic peoples, possibly the Goths and certainly the early
Scandinavians, resulted in more population mixing and language shifts in
what are now Finland and Estonia. To make a long and complex story as
brief as possible, the ancestor of what is now Estonian, Early
Proto-Finnic, was introduced to this area from the east thousands of years
ago by a small founder population. Later waves of Baltic and Germanic
immigration have resulted in most genetic traces of the original
population being innundated by genes from Scandinavia and Central Europe,
as well as in a later form of Proto-Finnic being introduced to what is now
Finland be migrants. In Finland some of the migrants maintained a distinct
identy, others assimilated into the older indigenous population, the
ancesters of the Sámi, whose language of uncertain origin was Fennicized
to a considerable degree. Thus, the Finnish language is from the east via
the south, but the majority of Finnish speakers today are
anthropoligically and genetically similar to eastern Scandinavians,
Estonians, and Latvians, with more Sámi influence in the north and more
Slavic influence in the south-east.

Hungarian reached Europe by a totally different route a little more than a
millennium ago. It was brought by a small group of invaders who
established a state in what had been the Roman colony of Pannonia. They
were able to impose their language on the inhabitants, most of whom spoke
dialects related either to eastern Romance, or southern Slavic. This is
the reason for the present discontinutiy between Romanian and the Romance
languages of northern Italy and, formerly, western Slovenia (Dalmatia), as
well as between western Slavic Slovak and southern Slavic Slovene and
Serbian. Like the Finns, the Hungarians are anthropologically and
genetically most similar to their neighbors. Many people who speak
Hungarian today had ancestors who spoke a Slavic, Romance, or Germanic
language, but underwent a language shift to HUngarian.

Thus, neither Finns nor Hungarians are Slavs. Finnish has been little
influenced by Slavic contacts, containing a few dozen words, mostly
resulting from contacts with Russian missionaries and traders in the past,
>from eastern Slavic: pappi 'priest', risti 'cross', vapaa 'free', tuska
'pain'; papu 'bean', määrä 'amount'. South-eastern Finnish dialects, the
speakers of which have traditionally had more contact with Russian and
Russians, have more Russian loans, as would be expected: A vot! 'Here it
is!', holotno 'cold room'. Karelian, closely related to Finnish but spoken
by a population that has been under the influence of the Rusisan Orthodox
church for almost 700 years, exhibits far more Russian influence.
Hungarians have had closer and more intimate contacts with their Slavic
neighbors to the north and south, and their language has a correspondingly
larger number and more varied collection of borrowings from Slavic, e.g.
szerda 'Wednesday', család 'family', szabad 'free', ebéd 'lunch', vacsora
'dinner', málna 'raspberry', utca 'street'.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:53 EST 2005
Article: 1044338 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:15:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 132
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Xref: sn-us soc.culture.russian:392226 soc.culture.jewish:1410964 alt.revisionism:1044338

In article , "Brigadier
General Y No Huy"  wrote:



> Just like Finns are Slavs, but too ashamed.

No, the converse would be closer to the truth, but even that is false.

When asking who the Finns are, a distinction has to be made between the
Finnish language, and the people in increasingly multi-ethnic,
multi-cultural Finland who self-identify as Finns today. For an extreme but
interesting case, check out the pictures of Finnish-born,
Finnish-speaking, Finnish-educated Lola Odusoga, Miss Finland 1996
[http://images.google.fi/images?q=lola+odusoga&hl=fi&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest].
To keep this on topic in soc.cultue.jewish and soc.culture.russian let it
be mentioned that Finnish has long established Russian and Jewish
miorities. The Russian minority consists of many groups, with the greatest
divides being between the descendants of Russians who had settled in
Finland before its independence in 1917, and those who have settled in
Finland since the collapse of the USSr in 1991. To make things even more
complex, many of the members of the old Russian minority are Jews, so the
two communities overlap to some extent.

The Finnish language is evidently of northern Eurasian origin. Today it,
like its sister languges Sámi [aka Lappish], Estonian, and Hungarian, is
one of the westernmost outliers of a language family, Uralic, that is still
indigenous to much of northern Eurasia and represented by the minor
Finno-Ugric languages Karelian, Vepsian, Erzya, Moksha, Mari, Komi,
Udmurt, Khanty, and Mansi, as well as by the Samoyed languages Enets,
Nenets, Nganasan, and Selkup [see the map of the present territory where
the Uralic languages are spoken at
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/images/langua1_b.jpg]. The Uralic
languages break down into two sub-families: Finno-Ugric and Samoyed. The
Finno Ugric languages are Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Vepsian, Livonian,
Votian, and Izhorian [Baltic-Finnic or Fennic]; Erzya and Moksha
[Mordvinic]; Mari; Komi and Udmurt [Permic]; Mansi and Khanty [Ob-Ugric]
and Hungarian. The Samoyed languages are enumerated above.

Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, and Vepsian are all so closely related as to
have  some mutual comprehensibility. Sámi is more distant, but the
relationship is still obvious. Hungarian is linguistically so different
>from the aforementioned languages that the relationship can only be
appreciated by a person who understands the methods of historical
linguistics (e.g. F käsi = H kéz 'hand, arm'; F silmä = H szem 'eye', F
suu = H saj 'mouth', F sydän = H szív 'heart', F kala = H hal 'fish', F
veri = H vér 'bood', F vesi = H víz 'water', F voi = H vaj 'butter', F
kolme = H három 'three', F neljä = H négy 'four', F viisi (< *viite) = H
öt 'five', F kuusi (< *kuute) = H hat 'six', F pää = H fej 'head', F puoli
= H fél, F puu = H fa, F nuoli = H nyíl 'arrow'; F hapan = H savanyú
'sour'; F mene- = H men- 'go', F ole- = H vol- 'to be', F anta- = H ad-
'to give', F elä- = H el- 'to live', F ui- = H úsz- 'to swim'; F me = H mi
'we'; F te = H ti 'you pl.'; F mi- = H mi 'what'; -F -n = H -n , F -ni = H -m <1sg possessive suffix>, F -si (* -ti) = H -d <2sg
possessive suffix>, F -i- = H -i- , F -l- = H -l ).

Many of the people in northern Russia who self-identify as Russians today
had ancestors a generation or two ago who spoke a Uralic language. So
rather than claim, falsely, that Finns are Slavs it would be more correct
to say that many north-eastern Slavs have some Finno-Ugric or Samoyed
ancestry.

The people who speak a language at any point in time are not necessarily
direct descendants of the people who introduced the language to wherever
it is spoken now. Simple reflection on the history of English as
originally a set of dialects spoken by invaders and settlers from what are
now northwestern Germany and the Netherlands, and the fact that only a
minority of native speakers of English today  can claim north-western
European origin brings this point home. Finnish, Estonian, and the other
Baltic-Finnic languages are generally considered to be the westernmost
part of what was once a pre-Indo-European linguistic continuum that once
covered much of western Eurasia and north-eastern Europe. Indo-European
expansion from the south eventually resulted in language shifts to
Indo-European as well as in the disappearance of historically attested
ancient peoples such as the Meryas and the Meshchers who once formed the
bridge between Baltic-Finnic and the Morvdin dialects. 

The introduction of agriculture to north-eastern Europe by the
Indo-European-speaking Balts, the ancestors of the Lithuanians and
Latvians, as well as of the now extinct Prussians and some other peoples
that once inhabited what is now Belarus, meant a surge in population as
well as language shifts and assimilations of populations.  Later invasions
of various Germanic peoples, possibly the Goths and certainly the early
Scandinavians, resulted in more population mixing and language shifts in
what are now Finland and Estonia. To make a long and complex story as
brief as possible, the ancestor of what is now Estonian, Early
Proto-Finnic, was introduced to this area from the east thousands of years
ago by a small founder population. Later waves of Baltic and Germanic
immigration have resulted in most genetic traces of the original
population being innundated by genes from Scandinavia and Central Europe,
as well as in a later form of Proto-Finnic being introduced to what is now
Finland be migrants. In Finland some of the migrants maintained a distinct
identy, others assimilated into the older indigenous population, the
ancesters of the Sámi, whose language of uncertain origin was Fennicized
to a considerable degree. Thus, the Finnish language is from the east via
the south, but the majority of Finnish speakers today are
anthropoligically and genetically similar to eastern Scandinavians,
Estonians, and Latvians, with more Sámi influence in the north and more
Slavic influence in the south-east.

Hungarian reached Europe by a totally different route a little more than a
millennium ago. It was brought by a small group of invaders who
established a state in what had been the Roman colony of Pannonia. They
were able to impose their language on the inhabitants, most of whom spoke
dialects related either to eastern Romance, or southern Slavic. This is
the reason for the present discontinutiy between Romanian and the Romance
languages of northern Italy and, formerly, western Slovenia (Dalmatia), as
well as between western Slavic Slovak and southern Slavic Slovene and
Serbian. Like the Finns, the Hungarians are anthropologically and
genetically most similar to their neighbors. Many people who speak
Hungarian today had ancestors who spoke a Slavic or Romance language, or
German, but underwent a language shift to HUngarian.

Thus, neither Finns nor Hungarians are Slavs. Finnish has been little
influenced by Slavic contacts, containing a few dozen words, mostly
resulting from contacts with Russian missionaries and traders in the past,
>from eastern Slavic: pappi 'priest', risti 'cross', vapaa 'free', tuska
'pain'; papu 'bean', määrä 'amount'. South-eastern Finnish dialects, the
speakers of which have traditionally had more contact with Russian and
Russians, have more Russian loans, as would be expected: A vot! 'Here it
is!', holotno 'cold room'. Karelian, closely related to Finnish but spoken
by a population that has been under the influence of the Rusisan Orthodox
church for almost 700 years, exhibits far more Russian influence.
Hungarians have had closer and more intimate contacts with their Slavic
neighbors to the north and south, and their language has a correspondingly
larger number and more varied collection of borrowings from Slavic, e.g.
szerda 'Wednesday', család 'family', szabad 'free', ebéd 'lunch', vacsora
'dinner', málna 'raspberry', utca 'street'.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:53 EST 2005
Article: 1044358 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:04:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 137
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-1905051601520001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> >
> > Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, and Vepsian are all closely related enough to
> > have some mutual comprehenibility. Sámi is more distant, but the
> > relationship is still obvious. Hungarian is linguistically so different
> > from the aforementioned languages that the relationship can only be
> > appreiated by a person who understands the methods of historical
> > linguistics (e.g. F käsi = H kéz 'hand, arm'; F silmä = H szem 'eye', F
> > suu = H saj 'mouth', F sydän = H szív 'heart', F kala = H hal 'fish', F
> > veri = H vér 'bood', F vesi = H víz 'water', F voi = H vaj 'butter', F
> > kolme = H három 'three', F neljä = H négy 'four', F viisi (< *viite) = H
> > öt 'five', F kuusi (< *kuute) = H hat 'six', F pää = H fej 'head', F puoli
> > = H fél, F puu = H fa, F nuoli = H nyíl 'arrow'; F hapan = H savanyú
> > 'sour'; *F mene- = H men- 'go', F ole- = H vol- 'to be', F anta- = H ad-
> > 'to give', F elä- = H el- 'to live', F ui- = H úsz- 'to swim'; F me = H mi
> > 'we'; F te = H ti 'you pl.'; F mi- = H mi 'what'; -F -n = H -n  > suffix>, F -ni = H -m <1sg possessive suffix>, F -si (* -ti) = H -d <2sg
> > possessive suffix>, F -i- = H -i- , F -l- = H -l  > locative suffix>).
> 
> Found some  mistakes  in the above text Holman, for example:

Thanks a lot./Köszönöm szépen.

> F suu = H saj 'mouth' correction -*H szaj

Köszönöm szépen.

> F mene- = H men- 'go' correction -*H menni

This is not a mistake. I listed the root, the part of the verb without the
infinitive ending -ni, as is customary in Finno-Ugric studies. In Finnish
the infitive meaning 'to go' is mennä, corresponding to Hungarian menni.
The men[e]- and men- parts are inherited from the same source, but the
infinitive endings are later innovations, for which reason they are
usually ommitted in comparisons.

> F ole- = H vol- 'to be', correction -*H volt=(past tense)  rather -lenni, 
> letezni (present)

Actually, the situation is more complex. In both Finnish and Hungarian the
paradigm of the verb meaning 'be' is syncretic: it contains roots of
various origins, just as does the English paradigm of the verb 'to be' has
'am' 'is', 'are', 'was', 'were', 'been', etc.

In Hungarian, the root len- shows up in the infinitive lenni, the same
root liene- shows up in Finnish, but is limited to the potential lienen 'I
can be' (cf. Sámi læm '[I] am'), Finnish olen 'I am', olin 'I was', olisin
'I would be', etc. The Hungarian root vol- is limited to the past tense,
its Finnish cognate ol- is used in all tenses and moods except the
potential.

> F anta- = H ad- 'to give', correction -*H adni (noun)

The inherited root is ad-, the infinitive is adni.

> F elä- = H el- 'to live', correction -*H elni (noun)  (el=living)

The inherited root is el-, the infinitive is elni.

> F ui- = H úsz- 'to swim'; correction -* H uszni (noun)

The inherited root is úsz-, the infinitive is úszni.

> F mi- = H mi 'what'; correction -* H mit  (mi=we)

No, 'Mi az a kezedben?' = 'What is that in your hand?' [nominative case,
marking the word as the grammatical subject], Mit csináls? 'What are you
doing? [accusative case, marking the word as the grammatical direct
object].

The Hungarian words mi 'what' and mi 'we' are homonyms and homographs.
 
> According to Hungarian history, Magyars and Finns use to be one tribe before 
> coming to the Karpath-valley. 

The split took place more than five thousand years ago, long before anyone
came to the Carpathian Valley. The ancestors of the Finns were living in
what is now Estonia more than 4,000 years ago when Indo-European-speaking
agriculturalists entered the area and taught the natives, who then lived
by hunting and gathering, how to use land more effectively. 

> Tribe split into two, one traveled to North to 
> todays Finn-land and Arpads tribe came west to today's Hungary.

There is no historical record of such a split and northward journey, as
dramatic as it sounds [Pekka: OK, Árpád, you go south, me and my folks are
heading NORTH. Arpad. Fine with me, Pekka. Don't forget to dress warmly.].


The Finns and Estonians are the westernmost representatives of what was
once a swath of languages spoken along a huge but sparsely populated
territory stretching northern Eurasia from modern Estonia to the Volga,
Urals, and beyond. Whereas the Finns, Estonians, Mordvins, Mari, etc.
represent pre-Indo-European populations, the Hungarians, whose language
was brought westward through the Caucasus, Turkey, Ukraine, and the
Balkans, speak a language that was introduced to already Indo-Europeanized
areas relatively recently and is thus post-Indo-European.

> Last 1000 years Magyars had  so much mixing with other nations, it is hard 
> to tell who is original Magyar.

Nem baj, hogy nehéz.

> For example the Tatars conquest, wiped out all most 2/3 of the Magyars, 
> Turkish occupation for 150 years also reduced an estimated 1/3 of the Magyar 
> nation. Every time the population reduced, settlers were brought in from 
> other nations, from Germany, Italy, Czech etc...

And they learned Hungarian and eventually self-identified as Hungarians.
Much the same thing holds for Finland, but on a smaller scale. The
original Finns were culturally Balticized Finnic-speakig colonists from
what is now Estonia who entered Finland by crossing the Gulf of Finland or
the Isthmus of Karelia and then mixed with the people already living
there, the ancestors of the Sámi [= Lapps]. After considerable mixing and
waves of eastern Germanic and Scandinavian colonization along the coast,
the following situation arose: a Swedish speaking population in the
archipelago and along the southern and western coastlines,
Finnish-speaking western and eastern Finns, the results of different paths
and periods of migration and originally speaking dialects more highly
differentiated than the modern standard language in the interior of the
country, and a Sámi-speaking population in the north. From a purely
functional standpoint one might say that those inhabitants of Finland who
chose a settled life based on agriculture or fishing, whether they speak
Finnish or Swedish, became Finns, while those inhabitants who preferred to
pursue a lifestyle as hunters, gatherers, and reindeer herders, engaging
only marginally in agriculture, became Sámis.

It is nice to be able to discuss something civilly with you for a change.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:54 EST 2005
Article: 1044362 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:07:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-1905051601520001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> >
> > Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, and Vepsian are all closely related enough to
> > have some mutual comprehenibility. Sámi is more distant, but the
> > relationship is still obvious. Hungarian is linguistically so different
> > from the aforementioned languages that the relationship can only be
> > appreiated by a person who understands the methods of historical
> > linguistics (e.g. F käsi = H kéz 'hand, arm'; F silmä = H szem 'eye', F
> > suu = H saj 'mouth', F sydän = H szív 'heart', F kala = H hal 'fish', F
> > veri = H vér 'bood', F vesi = H víz 'water', F voi = H vaj 'butter', F
> > kolme = H három 'three', F neljä = H négy 'four', F viisi (< *viite) = H
> > öt 'five', F kuusi (< *kuute) = H hat 'six', F pää = H fej 'head', F puoli
> > = H fél, F puu = H fa, F nuoli = H nyíl 'arrow'; F hapan = H savanyú
> > 'sour'; *F mene- = H men- 'go', F ole- = H vol- 'to be', F anta- = H ad-
> > 'to give', F elä- = H el- 'to live', F ui- = H úsz- 'to swim'; F me = H mi
> > 'we'; F te = H ti 'you pl.'; F mi- = H mi 'what'; -F -n = H -n  > suffix>, F -ni = H -m <1sg possessive suffix>, F -si (* -ti) = H -d <2sg
> > possessive suffix>, F -i- = H -i- , F -l- = H -l  > locative suffix>).
> 
> Found some  mistakes  in the above text Holman, for example:

Thanks a lot./Köszönöm szépen.

> F suu = H saj 'mouth' correction -*H szaj

Köszönöm szépen.

> F mene- = H men- 'go' correction -*H menni

This is not a mistake. I listed the root, the part of the verb without the
infinitive ending -ni, as is customary in Finno-Ugric studies. In Finnish
the infinitive meaning 'to go' is mennä, corresponding to Hungarian menni.
The men[e]- and men- parts are inherited from the same source, but the
infinitive endings are later innovations, for which reason they are
usually ommitted in comparisons.

> F ole- = H vol- 'to be', correction -*H volt=(past tense)  rather -lenni, 
> letezni (present)

Actually, the situation is more complex. In both Finnish and Hungarian the
paradigm of the verb meaning 'be' is syncretic: it contains roots of
various origins, just as does the English paradigm of the verb 'to be' has
'am' 'is', 'are', 'was', 'were', 'been', etc.

In Hungarian, the root len- shows up in the infinitive lenni, the same
root lie[ne]- shows up in Finnish, but is limited to the potential
lie[ne]n 'I can be' (cf. Sámi læm [Kautokeino]/leäm [Inari] '[I] am'),
Finnish olen 'I am', olin 'I was', olisin 'I would be', etc. The Hungarian
root vol- is limited to the past tense, its Finnish cognate ol- is used in
all tenses and moods except the potential.

> F anta- = H ad- 'to give', correction -*H adni (noun)

The inherited root is ad-, the infinitive is adni.

> F elä- = H el- 'to live', correction -*H elni (noun)  (el=living)

The inherited root is el-, the infinitive is elni.

> F ui- = H úsz- 'to swim'; correction -* H uszni (noun)

The inherited root is úsz-, the infinitive is úszni.

> F mi- = H mi 'what'; correction -* H mit  (mi=we)

No, 'Mi az a kezedben?' = 'What is that in your hand?' [nominative case,
marking the word as the grammatical subject], Mit csináls? 'What are you
doing? [accusative case, marking the word as the grammatical direct
object].

The Hungarian words mi 'what' and mi 'we' are homonyms and homographs.
 
> According to Hungarian history, Magyars and Finns use to be one tribe before 
> coming to the Karpath-valley. 

The split took place more than five thousand years ago, long before anyone
came to the Carpathian Valley. The ancestors of the Finns were living in
what is now Estonia more than 4,000 years ago when Indo-European-speaking
agriculturalists entered the area and taught the natives, who then lived
by hunting and gathering, how to use land more efficiently. 

> Tribe split into two, one traveled to North to 
> todays Finn-land and Arpads tribe came west to today's Hungary.

There is no historical record of such a split and northward journey, as
dramatic as it sounds:

[Scene: A fork in the road leading to the Carpathian Valley some time
around 898 AD. Väinö  and Árpád, two leading figures in what is still a
single tribe of Finno-Ugric-speaking marauders, are trying to decide what
to do next. They decide to entrust their fate to a Roman coin with
Caesar's face on the front and a coat of arms on the back.]

Árpád: Heads you go north, tails I do.

[Throws the coin, it lands on heads]

Väinö [unsure of whether he was won or lost]: OK, Árpád, you go south, me
and my folks are heading north. 
Árpád [looking at the sun and confident that he has gotten the better of
Väinö]: Fine with me, Väinö. Don't forget to dress warmly.

As good a story as it makes, that is not what history tells us happened.

The Finns and Estonians are the westernmost representatives of what was
once a swath of languages spoken along a huge but sparsely populated
territory stretching through northern Eurasia from modern Estonia to the Volga,
Urals, and beyond. Whereas the Finns, Estonians, Mordvins, Mari, etc.
represent pre-Indo-European populations, the Hungarians, whose language
was brought westward through the Caucasus, Turkey, Ukraine, and the
Balkans, speak a language that was introduced to already Indo-Europeanized
areas relatively recently and is thus post-Indo-European.

> Last 1000 years Magyars had  so much mixing with other nations, it is hard 
> to tell who is original Magyar.

Nem baj, hogy nehéz.

> For example the Tatars conquest, wiped out all most 2/3 of the Magyars, 
> Turkish occupation for 150 years also reduced an estimated 1/3 of the Magyar 
> nation. Every time the population reduced, settlers were brought in from 
> other nations, from Germany, Italy, Czech etc...

And they learned Hungarian and eventually self-identified as Hungarians.
Much the same thing holds for Finland, but on a smaller scale. The
original Finns were culturally Balticized Finnic-speakig colonists from
what is now Estonia who entered Finland by crossing the Gulf of Finland or
the Isthmus of Karelia and then mixed with the people already living
there, the ancestors of the Sámi [= Lapps]. After considerable mixing and
waves of eastern Germanic and Scandinavian colonization along the coast,
the following situation arose: a Swedish-speaking population in the
archipelago and along the southern and western coastlines,
Finnish-speaking western and eastern Finns, the results of different paths
and periods of migration and originally speaking dialects more highly
differentiated than the modern standard language, in the interior of the
country, and a Sámi-speaking population in the north. From a purely
functional standpoint one might say that those inhabitants of Finland who
chose a settled life based on agriculture or fishing, whether they spoke
Finnic or Scandinavian, became Finns, while those inhabitants who preferred to
pursue a lifestyle as hunters, gatherers, and reindeer herders, engaging
only marginally in agriculture, spoke Sámi and became Sámis.

It is nice to be able to discuss something civilly with you for a change.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:54 EST 2005
Article: 1044418 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:10:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-1905052104380001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> >> F mene- = H men- 'go' correction -*H menni
> >
> > This is not a mistake. I listed the root, the part of the verb without the
> > infinitive ending -ni, as is customary in Finno-Ugric studies. In Finnish
> > the infitive meaning 'to go' is mennä, corresponding to Hungarian menni.
> > The men[e]- and men- parts are inherited from the same source, but the
> > infinitive endings are later innovations, for which reason they are
> > usually ommitted in comparisons.
> 
> *** I see, but -men- by it self has no meaning in Magyar, may be in Finn.
> -megy- as verb or -menni- noun has meaning in Magyar. Both words are in 
> present tense.

Roots, the part of a word that refers to some entity, quality, quantity,
or activity in reality, that are originally of different origin often
combine to form a paradigm at a certain point in the existence of a
language. Such mixed paradigms are called syncretic by linguists. In
English, for example, the roots go and wen- (in went, the -t is a
fossilized past tense ending) have combined to form the paradigm of the
verb 'to go'. Similarly, in Hungarian men- and -megy-, as well as le-,
len-, van-, vol-, and vagy- have all combined to provide parts of the
paradigm of lenni 'to be'.


> >> F ole- = H vol- 'to be', correction -*H volt=(past tense)  rather -lenni,
> >> letezni (present)
> >
> > Actually, the situation is more complex. In both Finnish and Hungarian the
> > paradigm of the verb meaning 'be' is syncretic: it contains roots of
> > various origins, just as does the English paradigm of the verb 'to be' has
> > 'am' 'is', 'are', 'was', 'were', 'been', etc.
> 
> ***Some times it is hard to translate accuratly English to Hungarian or in 
> revers, because Hungarian writes exectly or very close as it pronounces, but 
> English rather plays with words around in it's sentences, often using the 
> same sounding words writen differently. That's why in English, spelling is 
> very important, had to be learned. Here in the US, spelling competitation 
> held often for kids, not in Magyar, only few exceptions found in the writen 
> Magyar gramatic.

True, but not relevant to what we are discussing.

> Often translatic English sentence, word by word to Magyar has no 
> understanding at all, the meaning of the sentence has to be translated.
> Also, Magyar has more letters in the alphabet, 32 exectly while the English 
> uses only 26, all though Magyar combines letters like -gy- -sz- -cs- -ty- 
> English don't, all though has a few words sounding  like  the 
> magyar -cs- -church- -ch- but it is not found in the English alphabeta.

English spelling is based on the principle that a morpheme should be
spelled the same way even if it undergoes changes in pronunciation,
consider the different pronunciation of the sequence {divin} in 'divine'
and 'divinity'' and of {atom} in 'atom' and 'atomic'. Although I prefer
the Hungarian way of spelling, it has its problems. You write kezben 'in
the hand', but házban 'in the house', spelling the same ending in two
different ways. In the three English words liked /laikt/, loved /l@vd/,
hated /'heit@d/ the same sequence {ed} is pronounced three different ways,
altough the different pronunciations are as predictable to a native
speaker as the Hungarian variants are to a Hungarian. If Hungarian
followed the English model, you would have something like kezbän and
házbän, with the native speaker's knowledge of the grammar of his language
determining whether {ä} was pronounced /a/ or /e/.

> Very accurate translation of  -to be- is - lenni, depends how it's been 
> used.

As in *Magyorországon akarok lenni.* 'I want to be in Hungary.' 

> > In Hungarian, the root len- shows up in the infinitive lenni, the same
> > root liene- shows up in Finnish, but is limited to the potential lienen 'I
> > can be' (cf. Sámi læm '[I] am'), Finnish olen 'I am', olin 'I was', olisin
> > 'I would be', etc. The Hungarian root vol- is limited to the past tense,
> > its Finnish cognate ol- is used in all tenses and moods except the
> > potential.
> 
> ***Same here, you can arbitrary choose -vol- as a root word, but has no 
> meaning in Magyar and I don't think ever been used that way. 

No, it is not a root *word*, just a root that provides some parts of the
paradigm of the verb *lenni*.

> Some times the 
> hole word changes, depends on what word tense it's been used.
> Like in English -child- or -children- -hold- -held-  -keep- - kept- etc... 

Note that it is not the whole word that is changing, but in the examples
that you give, it is the vowel that changes, child /tSaild/ ~ children
/tSildr@n/ having both an internal change and an ending.

Most English word-internal changes are the results of one of three very
different aspects of our linguistic heritage:

1. Ablaut. An alternation dating back to Indo-European times responsible
for the systematic vowel changes in so-called strong verbs: bite - bit -
bitten, give - gave - given, sing - sang - sung, come - came -come.

2. Umlaut. An alternation dating back to late proto-Germanic, early West
Germanic and responsible for the vowel changes in certain plural forms:
man - men, mouse - mice

3. Vowel shift. An alternation dating back to Late Middle English. The
vowels in syllables ending in a single consonant developed differently
than the vowels ending in a consonant cluster: keep - kept, dream -
dreamt, south - southern.

> in Magyar -lesz- -lenni-  - lett- or - vagy- -volt-.
> You say to a Hungarian -vol- or -len- you get a big question mark on the 
> face in returne.

If you are speaking with so-called normal people. Grammar teachers and
linguists, whose job it is to think about langauge analytically, will
undrstand what you are talking about.


> >
> >> F mi- = H mi 'what'; correction -* H mit  (mi=we)
> >
> > No, 'Mi az a kezedben?' = 'What is that in your hand?' [nominative case,
> > marking the word as the grammatical subject], Mit csinálsz? 'What are you
> > doing? [accusative case, marking the word as the grammatical direct
> > object].
> 
> ***Yes, -mi- may fit better as a root word. Used in a sentence it has 
> meaning -mi-  as -Mi van? - but not by it self - mit- is more proper.

No. The two forms *mi* and *mit* each have their own function:

"*Mit az a kezedben" would be ungrammatical in Hungarian, just as "*Mi
csinálsz?" would be. (the asterisk (*) indicates that the sentence is
ungrammatical.)

> As root word -mi- technically OK,  has no meaning though. All though I'm not 
> an expert on languages.
> > The Hungarian words mi 'what' and mi 'we' are homonyms and homographs.
> 
> 
> >> According to Hungarian history, Magyars and Finns use to be one tribe 
> >> before
> >> coming to the Karpath-valley.
> >
> > The split took place more than five thousand years ago, long before anyone
> > came to the Carpathian Valley. The ancestors of the Finns were living in
> > what is now Estonia more than 4,000 years ago when Indo-European-speaking
> > agriculturalists entered the area and taught the natives, who then lived
> > by hunting and gathering, how to use land more effectively.
> 
> ***That's too far back 5 thousand years.
> http://member.melbpc.org.au/~tmajlath/index1.html
>  >>But the general consensus according to [zb] is that sometime in the 3rd. 
> and 2nd. millenia B.C. 

Which means between four and five thousand years ago... The third
millennium B.C. lasted from 2999 B.C. until 2000 B.C. Add 2005 and you
have between 4,000 and 5000 years between the split and today.

> the Ugrians leave the Finno-Ugrian area (northern 
> Russia) and move south. A large part of this Ugrian group is thought to have 
> formed  the people who later called themselves "Magyar". In the Ist. 
> millenium B.C. the Ugrians find themselves in contact with Turkic peoples in 
> the region where Europe and Asia meet and they apparently form close ties 
> both culturally and linguistically. <<
> 
> >
> >> Tribe split into two, one traveled to North to
> >> todays Finn-land and Arpads tribe came west to today's Hungary.
> >
> > There is no historical record of such a split and northward journey, as
> > dramatic as it sounds [Pekka: OK, Árpád, you go south, me and my folks are
> > heading NORTH. Arpad. Fine with me, Pekka. Don't forget to dress warmly.].
> 
> ***There is no recorded history for the split, only speculation, because the 
> languga similraity between the two nations. I have to look into it more.

No, there is far more than speculation. One of the methods that linguists
use to investigate such matters is the study of loanword strata coupled
with the study of historical sound changes. The Hungarian vocabulary has
layers of Uralic, Finno-Ugric, Ob-Ugric, Proto-Indo-European, Alan,
Hunnish, Bashkir, Caucasian, Bulgarian Turkish, Gothic, south and west
Slavic, Romanian, medieval and modern German, and Latin vocabulary. the
Finnish vocabulary, in turn, has layers of Uralic, Finno-Ugric,
Proto-Indo-European, Old Persian, Baltic, Proto-Germanic, East-Germanic,
Old Scandinavian, Old Russian, and medieval and modern Swedish vocabulary.
During the twentieth century both languages have augmented their
vocabularies with words from English and the classical languages, often
via the intermediary of English.

> > The Finns and Estonians are the westernmost representatives of what was
> > once a swath of languages spoken along a huge but sparsely populated
> > territory stretching northern Eurasia from modern Estonia to the Volga,
> > Urals, and beyond. Whereas the Finns, Estonians, Mordvins, Mari, etc.
> > represent pre-Indo-European populations, the Hungarians, whose language
> > was brought westward through the Caucasus, Turkey, Ukraine, and the
> > Balkans, speak a language that was introduced to already Indo-Europeanized
> > areas relatively recently and is thus post-Indo-European.


> 
> > It is nice to be able to discuss something civilly with you for a change.
>
> ***Simply, I don't support the Anglo-French-American power arrangements of 
> Central-Europe, the Trianon treaty of 1920 that left Hungry crippled. The 
> Horty and Nyilas (Arrow cross, pro-Nazi) powers right-fully tried to undue 
> this shame full treaty. Translovania, the mineral rich region of Hungary, 
> was given to Romania, who were also Axis allies before. Just because 
> cowardly jumped out at the end of both wars, WW1 and 2, now given to them. 
> It will be a tension in that region for a long time to come.

With EU membership and increasd prosperity and mobility I think that
tensions will die down.

> Seems, the Anglo powers love to create such a geopolitical tensions, rather 
> it's located in the Middle-East or in Central-Europe.

Elsewhere, too. Look at a map of Africa. Gambia, cut out of the center of
Senegal, is a completely artifical state. So are Uruguay in South America,
Kuwait in the Middle East, Pakistan and Bangladesh, carved out of India, 
and Portugal, Northern Ireland, and Gibraltar in Europe. All of these
countries and  territories are the creations of the British, often with
American collusion and support.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:55 EST 2005
Article: 1044440 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Story Of 'Jewish Soap' Still Lurking In Museum Brochure
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:24:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

>   http://www.rense.com/general46/soap.html
> 
> The story of 'Jewish soap' is still not dead. 

Did a serious story of Jewish soap ever even exist? As far as I remember,
the issue was one of soap rendered from cadavers, with no standpoint being
taken as to what ethnicity the cadars represented.

> A few weeks ago, I visited 
> Bergen Belsen camp, and in the literature in the Camp Museum I found a small 
> brochure with this statement in it [Unable to display image] This soap was 
> ostensibly not made from 'Fett' but bones.

Be that as it may, not all of the internees at Bergen-Belsen were Jews.
The most credible accounts of soap being rendered from cadavers are from
Stutthof concentration camp, near Danzig:


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/soap05.html
[References are not included, but they are available via hyperlinks at the
original website.]

Claims by Richard Harwood and Ditlieb Felderer 

Harwood/Felderer's first claim: 

It would thus appear that the entire [soap] allegation is founded on
anonymous reports and speculative hearsay. No one can come up with any
locations, dates, or names. [27] 

While many of the early reports regarding human soap were anonymous,
usually regarding the RIF soap, the later ones regarding the Danzig
Anatomical Institute are not based on anonymous reports. Although they
mention the photograph of the IMT soap evidence reproduced in Butz's book,
Harwood and Felderer fail to mention USSR-197 (affidavits of Sygmund
Mazur, 28 May 1945; 11 June 1945; 12 June 1945); USSR-264 (affidavit of
John Henry Witton, 3 January 1946); or USSR-272 (affidavit of William
Anderson Neely, 7 January 1946). 

They also fail to mention anything regarding Professor Spanner, Mazur,
Witton, and Neely. All actually worked in the Danzig Institute -- not
quite "speculative hearsay." 

Harwood/Felderer's second claim: 

Many Exterminationist books make no mention at all of the "soap" story;
even outlandish books such as We Have Not Forgotten (2 & 6) which covers
every other conceivable German atrocity. The same is true of the numerous
other "Holocaustiana" which I have plowed through. Surely if there were
such factories there would be ample evidence to write book after book,
article after article, on this one subject. [28] 

This is in direct contradiction to Mark Weber who argues (see above ) that
the soap story "has been authoritatively endorsed by numerous
historians."  Yet his two fellow Holocaust-deniers are pointing out that
most "exterminationists" do not mention the soap allegations in their
books and use that fact as proof that it did not happen. That is hardly
the picture that Weber painted in his article. The "revisionists" can't
have it both ways. 

Harwood/Felderer's third claim: 

Determined to get to the bottom of the "human soap" problem, I paid a
visit to Danzig, and unsuccessfully tried to locate the site of the "human
soap factory." At the nearby Stutthof "extermination camp" I again sought
evidence, but not one of the officials or guides there could help. [29] 

Evidently, Felderer and/or Harwood did not go to the Medical Academy on
that visit to Gdansk. Other researchers have not had any such problems.
Carl Tighe discussed Mazur, Spanner, and the Institute in his book,
Gdansk: National Identity in the Polish-German Borderlands , and in a
letter to the authors, he wrote: 

I lived in the city of Gdansk in 1975-76 and was shown the recipe Spanner
used - I believe it is still in the possession of the Polytechnic.  Among
students, particularly students at the Medical Academy and Polytechnic,
and local residents, most of whom arrived in the city after Spanner had
left, Spanner's experiments were common lore. [30] 

Julian Hendy visited the Gdansk Medical Academy during the Summer of 1994.
According to Hendy, "It occupies the same building as the Anatomical
Institute, the small brick shed built by the British POWs is still there.
And there's a plaque on the wall about the soap experiments." 

Harwood/Felderer's fourth claim: 

It is certain that if the western public realized that almost all of these
atrocity allegations emanated from the communist bloc, then they would
receive about as much credence as contemporary communist propaganda about
intervening in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and now Afghanistan to "rescue the
inhabitants from foreign interference." [31] 

Although it was a Russian (L. N. Smirnov) who brought up the soap
allegations at the IMT, the Soviets had no control over the British
statements. Both Neely and Witton gave their depositions to the British
Judge Advocate General's Office -- in fact, both USSR-264 and USSR-272
clearly bear the designation MD/JAG/FS/22/609(4a) across the top. 

What about Mazur's depositions? Were they just communist propaganda, or
can his statements to the Soviets (USSR-197) be corroborated by anyone
else? Before speaking to the Soviets and giving his depositions, Mazur was
interviewed by the Glowna Komisja Badania Zbrodni Niemieckich w Polsce
("Committee for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland"). 

This Committee, which was comprised of several prominent Poles
(journalists, doctors, lawyers) as well as some representatives of the Red
Army, entered the Danzig Institute on May 5, 1945. Mazur gave his formal
deposition to the Committee on May 12, sixteen days before he gave his
first deposition to the Soviets. 

Zofia Nalkowska, a prominent novelist, was a member of the Committee and
discussed Mazur, Spanner, and the Danzig Institute in her 1946 non-fiction
book, Medaliony . The relevant portion was translated into English in
Introduction to Modern Polish Literature , Ed. Adam Gillon and Ludwik
Krzyzanowski. Nalkowksa quotes extensively from Mazur, and what he said to
the Committee was in substance exactly what he later said to the Soviets.
Nalkowska in no way can be considered a communist tool. 

Stanislaw Strabski, another member of the Committee, was a Polish
journalist and published a 1946 book called Mydlo z ludzkiego tluszczu , a
preliminary translaton of which shows that he also discusses Spanner,
Mazur, and the Institute. So it is disingenuous to merely dismiss the
testimony at the IMT regarding the soap as communist propaganda: two of
the three affidavits were provided by the British JAG, and Mazur's
statements to the Soviets are consistent with what he told the Committee
earlier in May 1945. 

[Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/soap05.html]

Conclusion 

Why should it matter whether or not human soap was made from the corpses
of Nazi Germany's victims? Whether Nazi Germany, or even one Nazi, made
human soap or attempted to make human soap does not change the fact that
Hitler attempted to exterminate European Jewry and murdered between 5 and
6 million of them. 

Compared with this monumental crime, the soap allegations can be seen as
trivial. 

Yet, the revisionists attach special importance to this question, hoping
thereby to cast doubt on the Nuremberg proceedings and on the Holocaust
itself. 

For example, Mark Weber writes: 

It is worth emphasizing here that the "evidence" presented at the
Nuremberg Tribunal for the bogus soap story was no less substantial than
the "evidence" presented for the claims of mass extermination in gas
chambers. [32] 

Bradley R. Smith: 

If Bauer and Lipstadt are right, who supplied this false evidence about
human soap to the Court? Why? Was the Court bamboozled about other
anti-German atrocity stories? Which ones? The gas chambers maybe? [33] 

Carlos Porter: 

The human soap accusation is particularly important because it was upheld
in the judgement at Nuremberg on the same page (IMT I-252) as gassing
millions of Jews and cutting their hair off to make human hair mattresses
.[34] (Emphasis in original.) 

(Actually, the statement about the killing of millions is on the first two
lines of I-253, and has nothing to do with the statement about mattresses
on I-252 -- but in any case, why would the page number be the least bit
important?) 

As has already been pointed out several times above , the IMT did not
"uphold" or "confirm" the soap allegations that these revisionists are
talking about. Nor does it really matter whether or not the Nazis actually
made human soap -- it does not affect, in any way whatsoever, the facts of
the Holocaust. 

Nor was the quantity or quality of the evidence for soap production in any
way comparable to that of mass gassings: three testimonies and a few
corroborating pieces of evidence is in no way comparable to the
overwhelming stream of physical evidence and testimonies from the
perpetrators and other witnesses of gassings and other facets of the
Holocaust. To even try to draw the comparison is ludicrous. 

But what the revisionists' writings on the soap allegations demonstrate is
their usual techniques of anti-scholarship: deceit, denial, and
misrepresentation. They misquote; they omit what contradicts their
preconceived notions; and they offer nothing substantial to refute or
disprove the statements of Mazur, Witton, and Neely. Then, they take their
distorted case and say that it is only the beginning of "revisionist"
historical successes: if the soap, why not the gas chambers? 

Nowhere is this clearer than in the words of Greg Raven :

The main front on which the revisionist battle is being fought is to
correct the Holocaust story. Here, the years since the publication of the
first Journal have seen remarkable retreats from the standard Holocaust
story, which used to include soap made from Jewish corpses, gas chambers
at Dachau, and all manner of fiendish methods of murder (including nuclear
devices). Revisionists have convincingly demonstrated virtually every
facet of the traditional Holocaust tale to be untrue, or at least wildly
exaggerated, resulting in a inexorable whittling down of the "accepted"
Holocaust story to a tiny fraction of what it once was. Even so, the "six
million" figure remains, indicating that there is yet more work to be
done. [35] (Emphasis Nizkor's.) 

We still cannot say with certainty whether or not human soap was made at
the Danzig Anatomical Institute. There are three affidavits from three
people who worked there to that effect, and corroborating physical
evidence. That is not sufficient to establish human soapmaking for
certain, but neither can it be dismissed out of hand. 

Unlike the "revisionist scholars" cited in this rebuttal, we will continue
to investigate, examining all the evidence before reaching a conclusion,
rather than adopting their practice, which is to develop their prejudices
and then look for evidence to support them. 



> If the Jews want their suffering during WW2 to be recognised and fully 
> appreciated by the rest of the world, they, too, must come out strongly 
> against such fanciful and untrue stories AND tell things the way they were.

>From the evidence at hand, there might very well have been limited
experiments conducted at Stutthof to render soap from human byproducts.
This was issue was brought up at Nuremberg and sufficient evidence was
presented in its favor for the allegations not to have been dismissed
outright. Claiming that the soap in question, if it was actually produced,
was specifically rendered from Jews is another issue. It is evidently an
exaggeration or a rumor. The fact that it is not to be taken seriously
does not mean, however, that the Nazis, crucially short of resources of
all kinds, never experimented with rendering soap from human byproducts,
or that the Jews have any monopoly over accounts of such experiments. The
museum at Bergen-Belsen [http://www.bergenbelsen.de/en/index.php], for
example, is run by a public foundation [http://www.stiftung-ng.de/] 
located in Celle that is under the auspices of the state government of
Lower Saxony. The Jews of the world have little if any influence on what
the museum decides to display to the public.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:56 EST 2005
Article: 1044455 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:04:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116554704.093672.111440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> > Field Marshal Keitel's orders quoted above call for "ruthless and
> > energetic measures" ("r=FCcksichtsloses und energisches Durchgreifen")
> to be
> > used against passive or active resistance offered by specific groups,
> one
> > of them being Jews.
> >
> 
> Eugene.  Why don't you tell all our readers just what Keitel considered
> "ruthless and energetic measures?"  Here's Keitel's order of  September
> 12, 1941:
> 
> "=2E..The struggle against Bolshevism demands ruthless and energetic
> action,  and first of all against the Jews as well, as the main bearers
> of Bolshevism. This will, therefore, be no cooperation whatever between
> the Wehrmacht and the Jewish population, whose attitude is openly or
> secretly anti-German, and no use is to be made of individual Jews, for
> any preferential auxiliary services for the Wehrmacht. Under no
> circumstances are papers to be issued by Military Offices to Jews
> confirming that they are employed for the purposes of the Wehrmacht.
> 
> "The only exception to be made is the use of Jews in specially
> organized labor columns, which are only to be employed under German
> supervision.
> 
> "It is requested to make this order known to the troops."
> 
> Wow!  Pretty ruthless, eh Eugene? Keitel forced Jews to perform manual
> labor.  That's about as "ruthless" as the Germans ever got with the
> Jews.  Notice that Keitel can't possibly think the Jews are to be
> killed.  Why would he bother to prohibit cooperating and employing Jews
> if they were going to be killed?  Instead, Keitel took away their
> greatest advantage: the ability to weasel their way to soft jobs by
> sidling up to the local military brass. It's no wonder the Jews hated
> Keitel with a passion.
> 
> There's your holocaust, Eugene: manual labor.  That and deportation.
> That's what happened to the Jews.  They weren't singled out for murder.

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Keitel2.htm



When, on 8th September 1941, OKW issued its ruthless regulations for the
treatment of Soviet POW's, Canaris wrote to Keitel that under
international law the SD should have nothing to do with this matter. On
this memorandum in Keitel's handwriting, dated 23rd September and
initialled by him, is the statement: "The objections arise from the
military concept of chivalrous warfare. This is the destruction of an
ideology. Therefore I approve and back the measures." Keitel testified
that he really agreed with Canaris and argued with Hitler, but lost. The
OKW Chief directed the military authorities to     cooperate with the
Einsatzstab Rosenberg in looting cultural property in occupied
territories. 

Lahousen testified that Keitel told him on 12th September, 1939, while
aboard Hitler's headquarters train, that the Polish intelligentsia,
nobility and Jews were to be liquidated. On 20th October, Hitler told
Keitel the intelligentsia would be prevented from forming a ruling class,
the standard of living would remain low, and Poland would be used only for
labour forces. Keitel does not remember the Lahousen conversation, but
admits there was such a policy and that he had protested without effect to
Hitler about it. 

On 16th September, 1941, Keitel ordered that attacks on soldiers in the
East     should be met by putting to death 50 to 100 Communists for one
German soldier, with the comment that human life was less than nothing in
the East. On 1st October he ordered military commanders always to have
hostages to execute when German soldiers were attacked. When Terboven, the
Reich Commissioner in Norway, wrote Hitler that Keitel's suggestion that
workmen's relatives be held responsible for sabotage, could work only if
firing squads were authorised, Keitel wrote on this memorandum in the
margin:" Yes, that is the best." 

On 12th May, 1941, five weeks before the invasion of the Soviet Union, the
OKW urged upon Hitler a directive of the OKH that political commissars be
liquidated by the Army.  Keitel admitted the directive was passed on to
field commanders. And on 13th May Keitel signed an order that civilians
suspected of offences against troops should be shot without trial, and
that prosecution of German soldiers for offences against civilians was
unnecessary. On 27th July all copies of this directive were ordered
destroyed without affecting its validity. Four days previously he signed
another order that legal punishment was inadequate and troops should use
terrorism. 



In the face of these documents Keitel does not deny his connection with
these acts.  Rather, his defence relies on the fact that he is a soldier,
and on the doctrine of "superior orders," prohibited by Article 8 of the
Charter as a defence. 

There is nothing in mitigation. Superior orders, men to a soldier cannot
be considered in mitigation where crimes as shocking and extensive have
been committed consciously,  ruthlessly and without military excuse or
justification. 

Conclusion The Tribunal finds Keitel guilty on all four counts. 



>  The Germans didn't murder the Jews.  

The Nuremberg Tribunal came to a different conclusion on the basis of the
evidence submitted. Keitel's defense was not that the charges were untrue,
but rather that policies such as the liquidation of political commissars
and the summary shooting of civilians did indeed exist, and that in
implementing them he was only following orders. It sentenced Keitel to
death for, among other things, crimes against humanity.

> The holocaust is a lie.

Keitel didn't think so, and he was there.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:56 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:37:00 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116554704.093672.111440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Morghus"  wrote:


> 
> There's your holocaust, Eugene: manual labor.  That and deportation.

Source:
http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ohlendorf/eidesstattliche-erklaerung-2.php


Eidesstattliche Erklärung (2) 


Faksimile 
EIDESSTATTLICHE ERKLÄRUNG [1] Ich, Otto OHLENDORF, erkläre hiermit an
Eidesstatt:

Ich war Chef des Sicherheitsdienstes (SD, Amt III des Büros Hauptamtes des
Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (RSHA), von 1939 bis 1945. Im Juni
1941 wurde ich von Himmler ernannt bestimmt, eine der Einsatzgruppen zu
fuehren, die damals
gebildet wurden, um den deutschen Armeen im russischen Feldzug zu folgen.
Ich war der Chef der Einsatzgruppe D. Chef der Einsatzgruppe A war
Stahlecker ,Chef des Amtes I des Bureaus des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei
und des SD (RSHA) Abteilungsleiter im Auswärtigen Amt. Der Chef der
Einsatzgruppe
B war NEBE, Chef des Amtes V (KRIPO) des Bureaus Hauptamtes
des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (RSHA). Der Chef
der Einsatzgruppe C war zuerst Rasch (oder Rasche) und später Thomas .

Himmler erklärte, dass ein wichtiger Teil unserer Aufgabe in der 
Beseitigung von Juden, Frauen, Maennern und Kindern, und 
kommunistischen Funktionären bestuende. Ich wurde etwa vier 
Wochen vorher ueber den Angriff auf Russland benachrichtigt.

Nach einem Abkommen mit dem OKW und dem OKH wurden die 
Einsatz gruppen kommandos von der Heeresgruppe oder der
Armee bestimmten Korps und Divisionen des Heeres zugeteilt. Das
Heer bestimmte, in welchem Gebiet die Einsatz gruppen kommandos
zu operieren hatten. Alle Fuehrungsweisungen und Befehle fuer
die Ausfuehrung von Hinrichtungen kamen vom über den Chef der
SIPO und des SD (RSHA) in Berlin. Regelmaessiger Kurierdienst
und Radioverbindung bestanden zwischen den Einsatzgruppen und
dem Chef der SIPO und des SD.

Die Einsatzgruppen und Einsatzkommandos wurden von Personal der 
Gestapo, des SD oder der Kriminalpolizei gefuehrt. Die Zusätzliche
Mannschaften wurde von der Ordnungspolizei und von der Waffen SS abgezogen
gestellt. Einsatzgruppe D bestand aus ungefaehr 400 bis 500 Mann und
verfuegte ueber annaehernd 170 Fahrzeuge. 

-2-

Als die deutsche Armee in Russland einmarschierte, war ich 
Fuehrer der Einsatzgruppe D im suedlichen Sektor, und im Laufe 
des Jahres, waehrend dessen ich Fuehrer der Einsatzgruppe D war, 
liquidierte sie ungefaehr 90,000 Maenner, Frauen und Kinder. Die 
Mehrzahl der Liquidierten waren Juden, aber es waren unter ihnen 
auch einige kommunistischen Funktionaere.

In der Ausfuehrung dieses Vernichtungsprogrammes wurden die 
Einsatzgruppen in Einsatzkommandos untergeteilt, und die 
Einsatzkommandos in noch kleinere Einheiten, die sogenannten 
Sonderkommandos und Teilkommandos. Gewoehnlich wurden die 
kleineren Einheiten von einem Angehörigen des SD, der GESTAPO 
oder der Kriminalpolizei gefuehrt. Die dazu ausersehene Einheit 
pflegte in ein Dorf oder in eine Stadt zu kommen und den 
fuehrenden juedischen Einwohnern den Befehl zu erteilen, alle 
Juden zwecks Umsiedlung zusammenzurufen. Sie wurden aufgefordert, alle
ihre persoenlichen Habseligkeiten Wertgegenstände den Fuehrern der Einheit
zu uebergeben, und kurz vor der Hinrichtung ihre Oberkleidung
auszuhaendigen. Die Maenner, Frauen und Kinder  wurden danach zu einem
Hinrichtungsort gefuehrt, der sich meist  neben einem vertieften
Panzerabwehrgraben befand. Dann wurden sie 
erschossen, knieend oder stehend, und die Leichen wurden in den  Graben
geworfen. Ich habe in der Gruppe D das Erschiessen durch  Einzelpersonen
nie genehmigt, sondern befohlen, dass mehrere  Leute gleichzeitig
schiessen sollten, um direkte, persoenliche  Verantwortung zu vermeiden.
Die Fuehrer der Einheiten oder  besonders bestimmte Personen mussten
jedoch den letzten Schuss 
auf solche Opfer abfeuern, die nicht sofort tot waren. Ich erfuhr 
aus Gespraechen mit anderen Gruppenfuehrern, dass manche von 
ihnen verlangten, dass die Opfer sich flach auf den Boden legten, 
um dann durch den Nacken geschossen zu werden. Ich billigte diese 
Methoden nicht. 
-3-


Im Fruehjahr 1942 wurden uns vom Chef der Sicherheitspolizei und 
des SD in Berlin Toten Gaswagen geschickt. Diese Wagen wurden
vom Amt II des RSHA beigestellt. Der Mann, der fuer die Wagen
meiner Einsatzgruppe verantwortlich war, war Becker . Wir hatten
Befehl erhalten, die Wagen fuer die Toetung von Frauen und
Kindern zu benutzen. Jedes Mal wenn eine Einheit eine genuegende
Anzahl von Opfern angesammelt hatte, wurde ein Wagen fuer die
Liquidierung gesandt. Wir hatten auch diese Toten Gaswagen
in der Naehe der Durchgangslager stationiert, in die die Opfer
gebracht wurden. Den Opfern wurde gesagt, dass sie umgesiedelt
werden wuerden und zudiesem Zwecke in die Wagen steigen muessten.
Danach wurden die Tueren geschlossen, und das Gas angedreht. durch das
Ingangsetzen der Wagen strömte das Gas ein. Die Opfer
starben in 10 bis 15 Minuten. Die Wagen wurden dann zum
Begraebnisplatz gefahren, wo die Leichen herausgenommen und
begraben wurden.

Ich habe den Bericht von STAHLECKER (Dokument L-180) ueber
Einsatzgruppe A gesehen, in welchem Stahlecker behauptet, dass
seine Gruppe 135,000 Juden und Kommunisten in den ersten vier
Monaten der Aktion getoetet hat. Ich kannte Stahlecker
persoenlich, und ich bin der Ansicht, dass das Dokument
authentisch ist. Man hat mir den Brief bezeigt, den BECKER an
RAUFF, den Leiter der Technischen Abteilung vom Amt II,
bezueglich der Verwendung dieser Toten Gaswagen geschrieben
hat. Ich kannte diesen beiden Maenner persoenlich, und ich bin
der Ansicht, dass dieser Brief ein authentisches Dokument ist.

                                       [Unterschrift: Ohlendorf]


Von mir unterschrieben und beschworen am 5. November 1945 in
Nuernberg, Deutschland. 






> That's what happened to the Jews.  They weren't singled out for murder.

What is your interpretation of the following excerpts from the above deposition:

1. Himmler erklärte, dass ein wichtiger Teil unserer Aufgabe in der 
Beseitigung von Juden, Frauen, Maennern und Kindern, und  kommunistischen
Funktionären bestuende.

2. Als die deutsche Armee in Russland einmarschierte, war ich 
Fuehrer der Einsatzgruppe D im suedlichen Sektor, und im Laufe 
des Jahres, waehrend dessen ich Fuehrer der Einsatzgruppe D war, 
liquidierte sie ungefaehr 90,000 Maenner, Frauen und Kinder. Die 
Mehrzahl der Liquidierten waren Juden, aber es waren unter ihnen 
auch einige kommunistischen Funktionaere.

3. In der Ausfuehrung dieses Vernichtungsprogrammes wurden die 
Einsatzgruppen in Einsatzkommandos untergeteilt, und die 
Einsatzkommandos in noch kleinere Einheiten, die sogenannten 
Sonderkommandos und Teilkommandos. Gewoehnlich wurden die 
kleineren Einheiten von einem Angehörigen des SD, der GESTAPO 
oder der Kriminalpolizei gefuehrt. Die dazu ausersehene Einheit 
pflegte in ein Dorf oder in eine Stadt zu kommen und den fuehrenden
juedischen Einwohnern den Befehl zu erteilen, alle  Juden zwecks
Umsiedlung zusammenzurufen. Sie wurden aufgefordert, alle ihre
persoenlichen Habseligkeiten Wertgegenstände den Fuehrern der Einheit zu
uebergeben, und kurz vor der Hinrichtung ihre Oberkleidung auszuhaendigen.
Die Maenner, Frauen und Kinder 
wurden danach zu einem Hinrichtungsort gefuehrt, der sich meist 
neben einem vertieften Panzerabwehrgraben befand. Dann wurden sie 
erschossen, knieend oder stehend, und die Leichen wurden in den 
Graben geworfen. Ich habe in der Gruppe D das Erschiessen durch 
Einzelpersonen nie genehmigt, sondern befohlen, dass mehrere 
Leute gleichzeitig schiessen sollten, um direkte, persoenliche 
Verantwortung zu vermeiden. Die Fuehrer der Einheiten oder 
besonders bestimmte Personen mussten jedoch den letzten Schuss 
auf solche Opfer abfeuern, die nicht sofort tot waren. Ich erfuhr 
aus Gespraechen mit anderen Gruppenfuehrern, dass manche von 
ihnen verlangten, dass die Opfer sich flach auf den Boden legten, 
um dann durch den Nacken geschossen zu werden. Ich billigte diese 
Methoden nicht. 

4. Alle Fuehrungsweisungen und Befehle fuer die Ausfuehrung von
Hinrichtungen kamen vom über den Chef der SIPO und des SD (RSHA) in
Berlin. 


>  The Germans didn't murder the Jews.  The holocaust is a lie.

Either that, or Ohlendorf told some whoppers under oath. I find his
statement above that he objected to the orthodox and ultra-efficient
Jeckeln *Sardinenpackung* methodology of forcing the people to be executed
to lie down in the pre-dug grave and dispatching them with a single shot
in the neck ("Ich billigte diese  Methoden nicht."), preferring instead to
have several people shoot each victim, thereby wasting bullets and having
an excess of manpower, but also making it possible to evade personal
responsibility, particularly intreresting.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:57 EST 2005
Article: 1044470 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Techniques of holocau$t propaganda deception
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:40:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <428dd32a_1@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:


> > From the evidence at hand, there might very well have been limited
> > experiments conducted at Stutthof to render soap from human byproducts.
> > This was issue was brought up at Nuremberg and sufficient evidence was
> > presented in its favor for the allegations not to have been dismissed
> > outright. Claiming that the soap in question, if it was actually produced,
> > was specifically rendered from Jews is another issue. It is evidently an
> > exaggeration or a rumor. The fact that it is not to be taken seriously
> > does not mean, however, that the Nazis, crucially short of resources of
> > all kinds, never experimented with rendering soap from human byproducts,
> > or that the Jews have any monopoly over accounts of such experiments. The
> > museum at Bergen-Belsen [http://www.bergenbelsen.de/en/index.php], for
> > example, is run by a public foundation [http://www.stiftung-ng.de/] 
> > located in Celle that is under the auspices of the state government of
> > Lower Saxony. The Jews of the world have little if any influence on what
> > the museum decides to display to the public.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> LIE: "Human soap" stories were never part of the "official" holocau$t 
> history.

Did I say it was? I wrote that the issue was taken up at the Nuremberg
trials, and enough evidence was presented for it not to be dismissed
outright. In the overall scheme of things, whether or not the Nazis
rendered soap from human byproducts was, at most, an isolated and
non-systematic issue, being thus of marginal importance if true.

> holocau$t propaganda is not restricted to what "official" holocau$t 
> historians said or wrote,

Pray tell, who are the '"official" Holocaust historians'® and who
authorizes them to serve in that capacity? What is David Irving, who has
written and spoken on the Holocaust, but denies having any expertise?

> holocau$t propaganda comprises:
> "official" holocau$t history,
What body is in charge of proclaiming it "officia"?

> holocau$t literature,
Are you claiming that all literature, scholarly, general non-fiction, and
belletristic, about the Holocaust is propaganda? Is every page of
literature about World War II, AIDS, or the December 26 tsunami disaster
propaganda as well?

> holocau$t promoting articles in magazines, newspaper, www pages,
> holocau$t documentaries,
> holocau$t movies,
> etc.

The Holocaust affected millions of people as perpetrators, victims, and
descendants of these groups. Many people such as myself find it
interesting as a cultural and historical phenomenon as well. Are you
proclaiming that we do not have right to discuss the Holocaust and its
implications as we see fit?

> Many of these were not written/created by "official" holocau$t historians,
> however they all serve the same purpose: to promote the holocau$t lies.

The Holocaust is in the public domain, like all historical events. You
have singularly failed to demonstrate that the¨main claims made about the
Holocaust are lies, so let people use the historical evidence about the
Holocaust in any way that they see fit. Any deliberate lies or
exaggerations will certsainly bounce back.

> The goal of holocau$t propaganda is to deceive people that holocau$t 
> happened,

No deception is involved. It happened. Perpetrators and victims agree on
that, and their consensus is supported by sufficient testimonial,
architectural, documentary, photographic, cinematographic, and physical
evidence to have convinced historians, governments, and courts of law in
every country involved. The evidence for the Holocaust, which took place
in at least fifteen countries over a span of six years, is far better in
terms of both quality and quantity  than the evidence for the sinking of
the Titanic, the assassination of John F. Kennedy, or the events of
September 11, 2001. If the Holocaust did not happen, then we are dealing
with what is perhaps the greatest and most massive deception ever
perpetrated in recorded history.

> and not to teach people to distinguish which holocau$t lies are 
> accepted/promoted
> by the "official" holocau$t historians.

You sound really confused. Now:
- identify these '"official" Holocaust historians'® and tell us who
qualifies them as official;
- give us some examples of "Holocaust lies" and "Holocaust truths";
- explain to use the criteria that you use to distinguish one from the other;
- tell us why we should believe you rather than the people whose
profession it is to preserve and hand down accounts of historical
experience.

It would be far more interesting to see you try to defend your position
than to just have to read more of your unfocused and puerile rants.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:57 EST 2005
Article: 1044480 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:38:02 +0300
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In article , "Big Bad Uncle
Russ"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-1905051615440001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> > In article , "Brigadier
> > General Y No Huy"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >> Just like Finns are Slavs, but too ashamed.
> >
> > No, the converse would be closer to the truth, but even that is false.
> >
> > When asking who the Finns are, a distinction has to be made between the
> > Finnish language, and the people in increasingly multi-ethnic,
> > multi-cultural Finland who self-identify as Finns today. For an extreme 
> > but
> > interesting case, check out the pictures of Finnish-born,
> > Finnish-speaking, Finnish-educated Lola Odusoga, Miss Finland 1996
> >
[http://images.google.fi/images?q=lola+odusoga&hl=fi&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest].
> 
> 
> 
> Ay, she is very beautiful, but I wasn't referring to the Lapp people
> we've got them in Russia too some assimilated others think
> white man inferior and kept their Hungarian-Finnish culture.

Lola's father is a Nigerian.
 
> Check the Mari or the Chud tribes in Russia.
>

> > Thus, neither Finns nor Hungarians are Slavs. Finnish has been little
> > influenced by Slavic contacts, containing a few dozen words, mostly
> > resulting from contacts with Russian missionaries and traders in the past,
> > from eastern Slavic: pappi 'priest', risti 'cross', vapaa 'free', tuska
> > 'pain'; papu 'bean', määrä 'amount'. South-eastern Finnish dialects, the
> > speakers of which have traditionally had more contact with Russian and
> > Russians, have more Russian loans, as would be expected: A vot! 'Here it
> > is!', holotno 'cold room'. Karelian, closely related to Finnish but spoken
> > by a population that has been under the influence of the Rusisan Orthodox
> > church for almost 700 years, exhibits far more Russian influence.
> > Hungarians have had closer and more intimate contacts with their Slavic
> > neighbors to the north and south, and their language has a correspondingly
> > larger number and more varied collection of borrowings from Slavic, e.g.
> > szerda 'Wednesday', család 'family', szabad 'free', ebéd 'lunch', vacsora
> > 'dinner', málna 'raspberry', utca 'street'.
> 
> Rubbish!
> South Finns got nothing to do with either Germans or Hungro-Finnic
> tribes,...

Anthropologically south-western Finns have a considerable amount of
Scandinavian admixture, hardly surprising, given that language shifts,
intermarriage, and assimilations have long gone in both directions.
Linguistically the Finns speak a language distantly but clearly related to
Hungarian, anthropologically the relationship is even more distant.

> ...in case you haven't noticed they look Slavik.

There is no such thing as "looking Slavic". The Slavs break down into
several distinct anthropological subgroups. Bulgarians don't look like
Czechs; Belarussians don't look like Ukrainians, Siberiaki don't usually
look like people from Krasnoyarsk.

> Their ancestors the Kvens were considered Slavs by the Germans.

The Germans got it wrong, hardly the first time. A thousand years ago the
ethnonym Kven was used in the Germanic languages to indicate the
Finnish-speaking population of northern Sweden and Finland. Nowadays it is
the ethnonym of the  small Finnish-speaking minority in Norway.

> Language got nothing to do with it Herr Holman, I know my
> people trust me!
> 
> BTW those "Indo-European-speaking Balts" are the spores
> of Slavik culture, like it or not united we stand, you
> silly Germanic supremacist.

I am most certainly not a Germanic supremicist. The Indo-European-speaking
Balts certainly provided some of the input for the eventual elaboration of
early Slavic and the culture associated with it. But, at least
linguistically, Baltic and Slavic are distinct entities, with Slavic
arising almost two millennia after Baltic.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:58 EST 2005
Article: 1044518 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 02:47:52 +0300
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In article , "Big Bad Uncle
Russ"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2005052138020001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> >>
> >> Ay, she is very beautiful, but I wasn't referring to the Lapp people
> >> we've got them in Russia too some assimilated others think
> >> white man inferior and kept their Hungarian-Finnish culture.
> >
> > Lola's father is a Nigerian.
> 
> So?
> She could have fooled me.:))

How?

> >> Check the Mari or the Chud tribes in Russia.
> >>
> >
> .
> >>
> >> Rubbish!
> >> South Finns got nothing to do with either Germans or Hungro-Finnic
> >> tribes,...
> >
> > Anthropologically south-western Finns have a considerable amount of
> > Scandinavian admixture, hardly surprising, given that language shifts,
> > intermarriage, and assimilations have long gone in both directions.
> > Linguistically the Finns speak a language distantly but clearly related to
> > Hungarian, anthropologically the relationship is even more distant.
> >
> 
> Modern Hungarians have some Slavik blood too, so they are not
> that different anthropologically.

I've never argued otherwise.
 
> >> ...in case you haven't noticed they look Slavik.
> >
> > There is no such thing as "looking Slavic". The Slavs break down into
> > several distinct anthropological subgroups. Bulgarians don't look like
> > Czechs; Belarussians don't look like Ukrainians, Siberiaki don't usually
> > look like people from Krasnoyarsk.
> 
> You betcha, if there is going to be Germanic, rest assured
> there will be Slavik looking too.
> Like it or not!

But is there "Germanic looking"? Icelanders don't look like Bavarians.
Neither do Englishmen look like Swabians.

> Take what is common to all and subtract that what is introduced and unique
> to local conditions.
> .
> BTW where did you get the idea, that Bulgarians and (I assume)
> other Balkan nations are supposed to look Slavik?

The Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Slovenes are
linguistically and culturally Slavs. They were separated from the western
and eastern Slavs as a consequence of Roman, Germanic, and Hungarian
expansions. But they have as much right to be regarded as Slavs as the
Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Pomeranians, Kashubians, Sorbs, Russians,
Belarussians, and Ukrainians do.

> 
> Do Spaniards and Northern Italians look Gothic to you?
> Read some history for Christ sake.

I have read history and even spent a year studying Wulfila's Gothic.
Nobody knows what the Goths looked like, but many Poles, Ukrainians,
Romanians, Bulgarians, Slovenes, Northern Italians, Catalonians, northern
Spanish, and southern French have some Gothic ancestry.
 
> >> Their ancestors the Kvens were considered Slavs by the Germans.
> >
> > The Germans got it wrong, hardly the first time. A thousand years ago the
> > ethnonym Kven was used in the Germanic languages to indicate the
> > Finnish-speaking population of northern Sweden and Finland. Nowadays it is
> > the ethnonym of the  small Finnish-speaking minority in Norway.
> >
> >> Language got nothing to do with it Herr Holman, I know my
> >> people trust me!
> >>
> >> BTW those "Indo-European-speaking Balts" are the spores
> >> of Slavik culture, like it or not united we stand, you
> >> silly Germanic supremacist.
> >
> > I am most certainly not a Germanic supremicist. The Indo-European-speaking
> > Balts certainly provided some of the input for the eventual elaboration of
> > early Slavic and the culture associated with it. But, at least
> > linguistically, Baltic and Slavic are distinct entities, with Slavic
> > arising almost two millennia after Baltic.
> 
> It is called evolution of culture, Holman some are less
> active and stay the same others build empires.

Agreed.

> And the French don't look like the Germans and the Poms
> don't look like the Spaniards and the Germans don't look
> like the Poms and yada yada yada.........

Nevertheless, the northeastern French, many of whose mother language is
Alsatian, and the Swabians are part of a linguistic and anthropological
continuum.
 
> Your German supremacist theory, that Slavs were nothing
> more than a loose pack of savages with nothing in common
> doesn't hold water, Holman.

I have never claimed anything so nonsensical. The Germanic and the Slavic
peoples have made major contributions to European culture and identity,
and a Slavic language, velikiy, moguchiy, pravdivïy i svobodnïy russkiy
yazïk, Russian, is the European language with the most native speakers in
Europe.

> You silly Germanic supremacist!:))

I am no Germanic supremacist. Da zdravstvuyet russkiy yazïk! Éljön a
magyar nyelv! Eläköön suomen kieli! Elagu eesti keel!

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:58 EST 2005
Article: 1044702 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Serious question for historians, revisionists and anti-revisionists
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:56:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116711383.410450.140600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
david_michael@onetel.net.uk wrote:


>
> 
> I was simply asking what the 'charges' were that were put into
> circulation and whether any documentation exists to cast light on what
> they were. Whether 'moment' can be attached to the communication, and
> indeed whether it is 'obscure', would presumably be revealed if some
> historian somewhere could find out which charges precisely were put
> into circulation by the British government, as per Hewet's memo, and
> whether they were true or false.
> 
> I again ask whether any historians, revisionists or anti-revisionists
> can cast any light on this.

Richard Breitman's book *Official Secrets. What the Nazis planned, What
the British and Americans knew*, 1998 provides information about what was
known by  Western intelligence services about the Holocaust. On the basis
of coded German police messages deciphered by British intelligence,
Breitman demonstrated that London and Washington were aware of the mass
murders of the Jews that were being carried out on Germany's eastern front
as they were taking place. The coded messages were being sent by the
groups of Order Police (Ordungspolizei), the local police units that were
assisting the SS-trained Einsatzgruppen to round up and shoot Jews. 

Breitman also uses the secret police messages that he found as a basis for
concluding  that in many cases the high Nazi authorities had to manipulate
and compel the men of the Order Police to participate in the killing of
the Jews. They were not, as Goldhagen argues, simply willing executioners.
These policemen were unaware of the degree to which the killing they were
doing was part of a systematic planb because only a small and selected
group within the Nazi leadership was aware of the ³final solution². Right
up until the end, the high Nazi authorities attempted to conceal their
final solution of the Jewish question from ordinary Germans, including
many of those carrying out the actual killings, and the rest of the world.

 
Breitman is certain that those in London who had read the deciphered
German coded messages knew that what was going on was systematic murdering
of Jews and not just the occasional pogrom. The head of British Secret
Intelligence (SIS), Sir Graham Stewart Menzies, had selectively informed
Prime Minister Winston Churchill of what the Nazis were doing, but in his
public speeches he linked the atrocities committed by the Germans on the
eastern front only to Soviet civilians. For example, in his radio speech
of August 24, 1941 Winston Churchill said ³that Germany's police forces
have executed Russian patriots who were defending their homeland in
cold-blood². Churchill never mentioned Jews separately in any of his
public appearances, even though there were precise numbers concerning the
killings of Jews on his desk.

No German police messages about the murders of Jews were used as evidence
at the Nuremberg Trials since they remained classified until 1997 when the
British Public Record office declassified them. At that time it was also
revealed that some of these documents had been handed over to the
Americans in 1982 in connection with the investigation of certain war
crimes. Not even these documents were made public until 1996.

Breitman also pointed out that British military intelligence (MI 8) handed
the decoded German police messages over to their Soviet colleagues at the
beginning of 1942 with no preconditions, evidently in the hope of
increasing other mutual exchanges of information. Obtaining archival
information about cooperation between the Western Allies and the
intelligence organs of the Soviet Union remains difficult. Breitman
remarks that the German police code messages were technically fairly
primitive, deriving from codes used during the First World War. They were
not part of the so-called ULTRA material that was concealed from the
Soviet Union for the duration of the Cold War. 

The Americans also denied the Soviet Union access to the so-called VENONA
material, ³the biggest secret of the Cold War era². This was a collection
of encoded telegrams of the NKVD, the MKGB, and GRU, Soviet military
intelligence, that had been deciphered by the Americans between 1941 and
1948. On the basis of them the MKGB (KGB) espionage network in the United
States and the American spies working within it were mapped out.
Evidently, concealing the ULTRA and VENONA information from their Soviet
wartime ally was a more important consideration for American security than
identifying and condemning those who had participated in the mass murder
of Jews. 


Source:
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_jewish_history/v088/88.1feingold.html


Book Review: America and the Holocaust 

Official Secrets: What the Nazis Planned, What the British and  Americans Knew 

Official Secrets: What the Nazis Planned, What the British and  Americans
Knew. By Richard Breitman. New York: Hill and  Wang, 1998. viii + 325 pp. 

The critical questions about the Holocaust witness role of the  United
States and Britain concerns what they knew and when they knew it. Official
Secrets takes us a long way in providing an  answer. In short, it is this:
the British government and, to a lesser  extent, the Roosevelt
administration knew almost everything, and they knew it comparatively
early. 

We learn that the British talent for cryptography allowed them, a few 
weeks after the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, to decode much 
of the communication of the Order Police (Ordnungspolizei),  those local
police units who, together with the SS-trained Einzatsgruppen, did much of
the actual killing behind German  lines. The decodes, which came into
Breitman's hands fortuitously,  shed new light on old problems, but at the
same time they raise  new questions. Why, for example, was no effort made
to inform Jews  of the fate that awaited them if they fell into Nazi
hands? Such an  information strategy was possible without compromising the
secret of  the decrypted codes. Why were the decodes shared with Moscow
but not  with the U.S.? Why was the information about the officials
involved in  the killing not used in the post-war denazification procedure
and as  evidence in the war-crimes trials? 

The task Breitman faced in filtering out the nuggets of useful 
information and grafting it on to the stock of what was already known 
must have been formidable. It required a detailed familiarity with  the
complex tapestry of the Holocaust so that the new pieces can be  fit as in
a puzzle. The previously neglected role of Kurt DaLuege,  Commander of the
Order Police, is one of the most interesting of  these. The composition of
that organization has become crucial evidence  regarding the involvement
of the average German citizen in the murder  of the Jews which so concerns
Daniel Goldhagen and others. These units  were not indoctrinated to carry
out the ideological mission of racial  purification. Ostensibly, they were
"ordinary men" and can therefore  give us an insight into the question of
whether it was "eliminationist"  anti-Semitism or peer pressure or even
desire to avoid service on the  eastern front which [End Page 133]
propelled most members to daily continue the business of mass murder and
to rarely seek to transfer out of these units. Breitman is a moderate
functionalist who is convinced that, while the idea of genocide has an old
and unchanging place in Hitler's mind, the actual strategy and plans for
mass murder were worked out operationally. The Nazi bureaucracy did not
know precisely how it would accomplish the much desired goal of making the
world Judenrein, but neither was European Jewry destroyed in a fit of
absentmindedness. In sharp contrast to Goldhagen, Breitman concludes that
"if all German police had been 'willing executioners' there would have
been less official concern and far less urgency behind the push toward the
use of gas chambers as a means of mass murder" (p. 226). 

It is in his observations regarding information or propaganda strategy 
that Breitman's analysis is most convincing. The crucial muting of  the
information available on the killing by the American Office of War 
Information and the British Ministry of Information was based as much  on
the assumption that the war should not be imaged as one to save the  Jews,
as on an unwillingness to believe the accumulating evidence of  genocide.
Surely there was some anti-Semitism involved in the assumption  that there
was exaggeration in the information provided by men like  Gerhard Riegner,
the World Jewish Congress agent in Switzerland, but  there was also a
fear, especially in Anthony Eden's Foreign Office,  that Berlin would
wield the Jewish question like a weapon of war and  use the refugee crisis
to exacerbate the critical strategic situation  in the Middle East. Eden's
personal distaste for Jews was reinforced  by what seemed to be a genuine
threat to British national interest. 

Eventually knowledge of the operation of the Final Solution could no 
longer be concealed. Though on several occasions the British leafleted 
and broadcast what was being done in Germany's name in the east, 
reluctance to speak about the genocide continued even after it was  clear
that such knowledge could have an effect in Germany and occupied  Europe.
There were five million short-wave radio sets in the hands  of German
citizens, and, although Nazi authorities were skilled at  detecting
listeners, we know from many sources that these broadcasts  were widely
listened to. The impact of news of impending deportations  from Berlin was
sufficient to trigger the Rosenstrasse Protest. In March  1943 hundreds of
Aryan partners succeeded in getting the deportations  of 17,000 of their
Jewish mates halted. Certainly, after Stalingrad and  growing certainty
that victory would go to the Allies, such information,  coupled with
threats that participators in the atrocities would be held  accountable,
would have gone far in breaking the cooperation in the  satellites. That
threat played a crucial role in halting the Hungarian [End Page 134]
deportations. There seems little doubt that had the "curtain of silence"
which surrounded the Final Solution been lifted by beaming the available
information to occupied Europe and to the German people and even informing
them that the savaging of their cities was in retribution for what was
happening in the east, more lives might have been saved. It is one of the
few "if onlies" that seems doable. 

In the final five months of 1942 alone, 10,100 messages were intercepted 
and most were decoded. The intercepts contained much more than news of 
the number of Jews killed. The sheer number of intercepted and decoded 
messages was one of the clues that an invasion of the Soviet Union was 
imminent. From the outset the fear that Berlin would discover that their 
secret codes had been compromised hung over the operation. When, after 
reading the decoded intercepts, Churchill did speak on August 21, 1941 of 
the "merciless butchery" on the eastern front, there was great fear that 
his speech would reveal the success of the code-breakers. Fortunately 
there were other information sources like the governments in exile which 
had good information about what was happening in their countries. The 
hard fact is that British and to a lesser extent American intelligence 
possessed early confirmed information about the Holocaust and did little 
to make it known. The British actually knew more and said less. That  fact
may make it necessary to modify our conventional wisdom that  places
Churchill ahead of Roosevelt in understanding the historical  significance
of the Holocaust and sympathizing with its victims. 

What Breitman does in a clear, uncluttered prose is to add detail to  the
bureaucratic process of the genocide operation in Berlin and to the 
bureaucratic viscosity and indifference that prevented a human response 
in Washington and London. Despite its subtitle, What the Nazis  Planned,
What the British and Americans Knew, this work remains a  collection of
separate episodes, each interesting in its own right. In  his focus on how
rather than why it was done, Breitman's work bears  some resemblance to
that of Raoul Hilberg who used to declare that  when we fully understand
how it was done, the "why" would take care  of itself. Thirty-eight years
later, Breitman's research gives that  notion a ring of truth. It may be
that the "why" of the Holocaust is  best left to the psychohistorians. Let
them begin with the decodes. 

Henry L. Feingold 
Baruch College of the City University of New York 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:40:59 EST 2005
Article: 1044703 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:23:07 +0300
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In article <1116642274.912545.29850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Morghus"  wrote:


> 
> My interpretation of that statement from Ohlendorf  is that it was
> written by one of the many Jews on the interrogation staff of the
> prosecution at Nuremberg.  

Just a minute, now.

Source:
http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ohlendorf/eidesstattliche-erklaerung-2.php


Eidesstattliche Erklärung (2) 


Faksimile 
EIDESSTATTLICHE ERKLÄRUNG [1] Ich, Otto OHLENDORF, erkläre hiermit an
Eidesstatt:


It was presented as a statement made under oath. You are making serious
accusations, what evidence are they based on?

> Ohlendorf's "deposition" is typical of all
> of the other statements obtained by the interrogators at Nuremberg.
> The statements were  supposedly obtained from the capured Germans in a
> private room, away from any independent witnesses, and supposedly
> signed by the hapless victims of their own free will.  But when the
> same witnesses appeared in open court, away from their gentle Jewish
> captors, the witnesses usually told a completely story.  Take, for
> example, Otto Ohlendorf.
> 
> When  Otto Ohlendorf testified at Nuremberg he swore that he never
> heard of any order to kill Jews. 

Nonsense.

When Otto Ohlendorf testified at Nuremberg he said:

Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Ohlentestimony.html


COL. AMEN: In what respects, if any, were the official duties of the
Einsatz groups concerned with Jews and Communist commissars? 

     OHLENDORF: The instructions were that in the Russian operational
areas of the Einsatzgruppen the Jews, as well as the Soviet political
commissars, were to be liquidated. 

     COL. AMEN: And when you say "liquidated" do you mean "killed"? 

     OHLENDORF: Yes, I mean "killed". 

     COL. AMEN: Prior to the opening of the Soviet campaign, did you
attend a conference at Pretz? 

     OHLENDORF: Yes, it was a conference at which the Einsatzgruppen and
the Einsatzkommandos were informed of their tasks and were given the
necessary orders. 

     COL. AMEN: Who was present at that conference? 

     OHLENDORF: The chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen and the commanders of the
Einsatzkommandos and Streckenbach of the RHSA who transmitted the orders
of Heydrich and Himmler. 

     COL. AMEN: What were those orders? 

     OHLENDORF: Those were the general orders of the normal work of the
Sipo and the SD, and in addition the liquidation order which I have
already mentioned. 

     COL. AMEN: And that conference took place on approximately what date? 

     OHLENDORF: About three or four days before the mission. 

     COL. AMEN: So that before you commenced to march into Soviet Russia
you received orders at this conference to exterminate the Jews and
Communist functionaries in addition to the regular professional work of
the Security Police and SD; is that correct? 

     OHLENDORF: Yes. 




> As chief of Amt III from 1939 to 1945,
> he certainly would have known if such an order had ever been given.

Read the end of the above testimony again:



     COL. AMEN: What were those orders? 

     OHLENDORF: Those were the general orders of the normal work of the
Sipo and the SD, and in addition the liquidation order which I have
already mentioned. 

     COL. AMEN: And that conference took place on approximately what date? 

     OHLENDORF: About three or four days before the mission.



> According to Ohlendorf, there was no Holocaust. The Germans had no
> plans to kill all Jews, or any other ethnic group, during the war.
>  Here's Ohlendorf's testimony, live, in open court:
> 
> "Q. Did you know about plans or directives which had as their goal the
> extermination on racial and religious grounds?"
> 
> "A. I expressly assure you that I neither knew of such plans nor was I
> called on to cooperate in any such plans. Lieutenant General
> [Obergruppenfuehrer] Bach-Zelewski testified during the big trial
> [before the International Military Tribunal] that the Reich Leader SS
> in a secret conference of all lieutenant generals made known that the
> goal was to exterminate thirty million Slavs. I repeat that I was
> neither given such an order nor was there even the slightest hint,
> given to me that such plans or goals existed for the Russian campaign.
> This is not only true for the Slavs but this is also true for the
> Jews. "
> 
>     His testimony is consistent with all of the official German
> documents recovered after the war.  The Jews were deported--not
> murdered.  

Testifying an Nuremberg, Ohlendorf stated quite explicitly that people of
Jewish blood were to be rounded up and shot in mass executions. He also
states that talk of "resettlement" was merely a pretext for gathering them
in ne place so that they could be executed "in a military manner, by
firing squads under command."

Source: ibid.



     COL. AMEN: Did you personally supervise mass executions of these
individuals? 

     OHLENDORF: I was present at two mass executions for purposes of
inspection. 

     COL. AMEN: Will you explain in detail to the Tribunal how an
individual mass execution was carried out? 

     OHLENDORF: A local Einsatzkommando attempted to collect all the Jews
in its area by registering them. This registration was performed by the
Jews themselves. 

     COL. AMEN: On what pretext, if any, were they rounded up? 

     OHLENDORF: On the pretext that they were to be resettled. 

     COL. AMEN: Will you continue? 

     OHLENDORF: After the registration the Jews were collected at one
place; and from there they were later transported to the place of
execution, which was, as a rule, an antitank ditch or a natural
excavation. The executions were carried out in a military manner, by
firing squads under command. 

     COL. AMEN: In what way were they transported to the place of execution? 

     OHLENDORF: They were transported to the place of execution in trucks,
always only as many as could be executed immediately. In this way it was
attempted to keep the span of time from the moment in which the victims
knew what was about to happen to them until the time of their actual
execution as short as possible. 

     COL. AMEN: Was that your idea? 

     OHLENDORF: Yes. 

     COL. AMEN: And after they were shot what was done with the bodies? 

     OHLENDORF: The bodies were buried in the antitank ditch or excavation. 

     COL. AMEN: What determination, if any, was made as to whether the
persons were actually dead? 

     OHLENDORF: The unit leaders or the firing-squad commanders had orders
to see to this and, if need be, finish them off themselves. 

     COL. AMEN: And who would do that? 

     OHLENDORF: Either the unit leader himself or somebody designated by him. 

     COL. AMEN: In what positions were the victims shot? 

     OHLENDORF: Standing or kneeling. 




> The holocaust is a lie.

No. I have demonstrated quite clearly that you have lied extensively about
Ohlendorf's testimony at Nuremberg concerning the orders for the Holocaust
as well as the manner in which he participated in it.

At the Einsatzgruppen trial Ohlendorf made reference to specific orders to
kill people of Jewish blood:

"Q. So they came absolutely under the Fuehrer Decree or the Streckenbach
Order to kill all Jews? 

A. Yes."



"Q. So the criterion and the test which you applied in your slaughter was
blood? 

A. The criteria which I used were the orders which I got, and it has not
been doubted  during the entire trial, that in this Fuehrer Order the Jews
were designated as the ones who belonged to that circle in Russia and who
were to be killed. "

For the context see below

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Einsatz2c.htm



MR. HEATH: Very well, sir. Mr. Ohlendorf, I had begun to ask you about the
Karaims [Karaites]* and the Krimchaks**, ' I think you called them. I    
understood that you were confronted in the south of Russia with the
question further to  slaughter Krimchaks. Krimchaks I understood were
human beings who had come by way of Italy to Russia, and they had Jewish
blood. The directive which you got from Berlin was to kill the Krimchaks,
is that correct? 

DEFENDANT OHLENDORF : Yes. 

Q. Now, I cannot pronounce it correctly, the Karaims were another sect
whom you     encountered in the south of Russia, and this sect had no
Jewish blood, but it did share the religious confessions of the Jews. Is
that right? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You submitted to Berlin the question whether the Karaims should be
killed, and I understood you to say that the order you got from Berlin was
you shall not kill them for they have nothing in common with the Jews
except the confession? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now during your direct examination you told this Court that you had no
idea, and that you have no cause today to think that there was any plan to
exterminate the Jewish race in existence, nor that you had any information
of putting it into effect. Is that right? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was
between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ? 

A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern Jews,
in the case  of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign. These
Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that they
were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as
endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews who
were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all of
Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my
dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all costs to
get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed showed
that the charge of the prosecution that persons were     persecuted for
their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish religion,
but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the Jewish
race. 

Q. I think, Witness, you answered exactly what I had antici- 

*Sect which refused the Talmud and adopted the Old Testament as sole
source of faith. 
**Turkish Jews of mixed Semitic and Tartaric blood. 

pated in the last sentence, "They did not belong to the Jewish Race," is
that     right? 

A. Yes, That is right. 

Q. They were found in Russia? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But they participated in the Jewish confession in Russia? 

A. The Karaims had the Jewish faith, yes. 

Q. But your race authorities in Berlin could find no trace of Jewish blood
in them? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So they came absolutely under the Fuehrer Decree or the Streckenbach
Order to kill all Jews? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Because of blood? 

A. Because they were of Jewish origin. For you must understand the Nazi
ideology, as you  call it. It was the opinion of the Fuehrer that in
Russia and in bolshevism, the representatives of this blood showed
themselves especially suitable for this idea, therefore, the carriers of
this blood became especially suitable representatives of the bolshevism.
That is not on account of their faith, or their religion, but because of
their human make-up and character. 

Q. And because of their blood, right? 

A. I cannot express it any more definitely than I stated, from their
nature and their  characteristics. Their blood, of course, has something
to do with it, according to National Socialist ideology. 

Q. Let's see, if I can understand it; we've got a lot of time, I hope.
What was the  distinction except blood? 

A. Between whom? 

B. Between the Karaims and the Krimchaks? 

A. The difference of the blood, yes. 

Q. Only the difference in blood, is that so? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So the criterion and the test which you applied in your slaughter was blood? 

A. The criteria which I used were the orders which I got, and it has not
been doubted  during the entire trial, that in this Fuehrer Order the Jews
were designated as the ones who belonged to that circle in Russia and who
were to be killed. 

Q. Very well, Witness, let's not quibble. Let's come back again. What you
followed was the Fuehrer Order. Now, I leave you out of it for a moment,
your own idea of what should be  killed and what should not be killed. 

PRESIDING JUDGE MUSMANNO: I disagree with you, Mr. Heath, that the witness
has     quibbled. I think he has stated very clearly that his orders were
to kill all Jews, that was the criterion which he followed. If he was a
Jew he was killed, if he was not a Jew then they might figure some other
reason to kill him but he wouldn't be killed because he was a Jew. 

MR. HEATH :Yes, your Honor, I am attempting to get him to say the word
blood and not the word Jews. That is the reason I was saying he is
quibbling,but I am perfectly happy to leave it where it is. 

PRESIDING JUDGE MUSMANNO: I think he has been rather forthright. 

MR. HEATH: Very well. Let's see, Mr. Ohlendorf, let's go for a moment to
this order  which you got at Pretzsch in the spring of 1941. Did you have
any knowledge whatever of the purposes of the Einsatzgruppen before you
went to Pretzsch? 

A. We merely knew that the Einsatzgruppen were to be set up. 

Q. But you did not know what they were to do? 

A. No. Apart from the fact that one has a definite idea about missions in
which people of the Security Police and the SD were assigned. That is, of
course, true. 

Q. Did you, at that time, have any idea that the mission of the security
police would  be to slaughter Jews and gypsies? 

A. I could no longer say today that I had such an idea, but I don't
believe so. In my opinion the order about the killing of the Jews was made
known to me for the first time in  Pretzsch, that is, for the Russian
campaign. 

Q. If you had known that that was going to be the purpose of the
Einsatzgruppen to kill all Jews and gypsies and certain other categories,
you would remember it today-would you not, Mr. Ohlendorf ? 

A. I can no longer say. 


Ohlendorf states that he did not know or understand that the Nazis were
exterminating the Jews of Europe. This is credible if unlikely if he
really understood the nature of Nazi ideology and could view the killings
that the men under his command were committing against a wider
perspective. Whether he was capable of thinking in such broad terms is of
marginal importance. He was far enough down the line of command to only
know that Jews, more precisely people of Jewish blood, were being
exterminated in the area of Russia that was under his command because, as
he expresses it: 

"It was the opinion of the Fuehrer that in Russia and in bolshevism, the
representatives of this blood showed themselves especially suitable for
this idea, therefore, the carriers of this blood became especially
suitable representatives of the bolshevism. That is not on account of
their faith, or their religion, but because of their human make-up and
character... I cannot express it any more definitely than I stated, from
their nature and their  characteristics. Their blood, of course, has
something to do with it, according to National Socialist ideology... The
criteria which I used were the orders which I got, and it has not been
doubted  during the entire trial, that in this Fuehrer Order the Jews were
designated as the ones who belonged to that circle in Russia and who were
to be killed." [source: ibid.]

Summa summarum. In both the deposition that he made under oath as well as
when testifying and being cross-examined in open court Otto Ohlendorf
stated explicitly that there had been a decree from Hitler as well as
orders from Streckenbach that in the parts of the Soviet Union occupied by
Nazi Germany representatives of Jewish blood, men, women, and children,
were to be singled out and killed because, according to National Socialist
ideology, representatives of this blood were especially suitable
representatives of Bolshevism. They were to be liquidated, which Ohlendorf
specifies meant shot within the framework of mass executions organized by
the men under his command, because of perceived defects in their human
make-up and character consequent to their blood.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:00 EST 2005
Article: 1044733 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Serious question for historians, revisionists and anti-revisionists
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:09:22 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Emil Müller"
 wrote:



>... like for example about the Riga/Rumbula tale he gives as
> the source Ezergailis "The Holocaust in Latvia".
> 
> The book was recommended to me as a "must read". I was disappointed.

Why? I found Ezergailis's book to be a clearly written and meticulously
researched piece of scholarship that made excellent use of a wide variety
of prmary sources.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:00 EST 2005
Article: 1044735 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Serious question for historians, revisionists and anti-revisionists
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:23:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Yes Eugene we all know all books written by pro Jewish authors are from
> excellent scholars the rest of the world does not count. 

Professor Ezergailis is not necessarily a pro-Jewish author. His specialty
is 20th century Latvian history, and anyone would agree that one of the
most traumatic periods in the history of the unfortunate country was the
years between 1940 and 1945 when the country was first occupied by the
USSR, then by Nazi Germany, and then by the USSR again. Ezergailis focuses
on the Nazi occupatoin, but he also shows how it interfaced with the
Soviet occupations that preceded and followed it.

> Have you ever taken
> into consideration how the rest of the world perceives you people.

What do you mean by "you people"? You know that I am not a Jew. And if you
want to consider perceptions, how does the rest of the world perceive
proven liars about history, such as David Irving?

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:01 EST 2005
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Serious question for historians, revisionists and anti-revisionists
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:41:04 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Kurt Knoll"
 wrote:

> Yes Eugene we all know all books written by pro Jewish authors are from
> excellent scholars the rest of the world does not count. 

Professor Ezergailis is not necessarily a pro-Jewish author. His specialty
is 20th century Latvian history, and anyone would agree that one of the
most traumatic periods in the history of that unfortunate country was the
years between 1940 and 1945 when it was first occupied by the
USSR, then by Nazi Germany, and then by the USSR again. Ezergailis focuses
on the Nazi occupation, but he also shows how it interfaced with the
Soviet occupations that preceded and followed it.

> Have you ever taken
> into consideration how the rest of the world perceives you people.

What do you mean by "you people"? You know that I am not a Jew. And if you
want to consider perceptions, how does the rest of the world perceive
proven liars about history, such as David Irving?

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:01 EST 2005
Article: 1044743 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Serious question for historians, revisionists and anti-revisionists
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:39:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 41
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References: <1116697720.185428.233210@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <428f9392@news.comindico.com.au> <1116711383.410450.140600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    <1191g6ph5oa2kdd@corp.supernews.com>
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In article <1191g6ph5oa2kdd@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-2205051809220001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> > In article , "Emil Müller"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > >... like for example about the Riga/Rumbula tale he gives as
> > > the source Ezergailis "The Holocaust in Latvia".
> > >
> > > The book was recommended to me as a "must read". I was disappointed.
> >
> > Why? I found Ezergailis's book to be a clearly written and meticulously
> > researched piece of scholarship that made excellent use of a wide variety
> > of prmary sources.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> Excuse my lousy English. I tried to refer to Breitman's book as being
> recommended as a "must read" book.

Excuse me for misunderstanding you. As I have written here previously, the
Rumbula massacre was significant because it took place in an open city, in
public, and in broad daylight. The BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow
featured it in their evening broadcsts on November 30, 1941, so not only
coded police messages, but also reporters, intelligence, and foreign
agents of various kinds and nationalities living in Riga at the time
provided British intelligence with a stream of detailed information. Some
of this was corroborated immedediately after the war when British Military
Intelligence secretly recorded participant Walter Bruns's detailed
discussion of the massacre with his fellow German POWs. Ezergailis's
chapter on the Rumbula merely puts most of what is known about the
massacre into a convenient and accessible form
[http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf]

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:01 EST 2005
Article: 1044747 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:23:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 190
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In article <1116776871.292788.196370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1116642274.912545.29850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> 
> >
> > No. I have demonstrated quite clearly that you have lied extensively
> about
> > Ohlendorf's testimony at Nuremberg concerning the orders for the
> Holocaust
> > as well as the manner in which he participated in it.
> 
> I didn't lie at all about Ohlendorf's testimony-- I QUOTED IT. 

You quoted a part of it that was consistent with your agenda. You omitted
the very important parts in which he stated that he had received *specific
orders* to kill Jews and Bolsheviks in Russia at a conference for the
leaders of the Einsatzgruppen at Pretz three or four days before the
beginning of *Barbarossa*, that these orders were based on a Hitler Decree
and instructions for their implementation given by Strelenbach, and that
when conbfronted with a semantic dilemma that could cost many innocent
lives he had contacted Berlin to make sure that 'Jew' was being
interpreted racially rather than religiously when he had to determine what
to do with the Karaims (Jews by religion, but nor by race) and the
Krimchaks (Jews by religion and race). 

> Which
> should put reasonable people on notice that there is something
> fundamentally wrong with Ohlendorf's testimony and it shouldn't be
> accepted as evidence of anything. Ohlendorf totally contradicts
> himself. 

He most certainly does not. He explains that he was unaware of any
systematic plan to kill all the Jews in Europe, but states quite
specifically that he particiapted in a conference for the leaders of the
Einsatzgruppen where orders were given to liquidate Jews and Bolsheviks in
the parts of the Soviet Union that Germany planned to capture and occupy.
He even went so far as to explain this policy as being consistent with the
ideology of National Socialism, which regarded Jewish blood as a factor
making people who have it particularly susceptible to Bolshevism. He also
states that as far as he knew, when he was commanding his Einsatzgruppe D,
Nazi policy towards the Jews in Russia was to kill them, but the policy
towards the Jews in the West was to force them to emigrate. There is
nothing inconsistent about this except for the fact that the Nazis made
Jewish emigration illegal on October 23, 1941. There is no reason that
Ohlendorf, deep in the Soviet Union supervising the mass-murder of local
Jews on a day-to-day basis at this time, should have been aware of this
policy change.

> So now, since everyone is aware of the inconsistencies in
> Ohlendorf's testimony, including you, every time you and the rest of
> the holocaust promoters offer Ohlendorf's testimony as proof of some
> holocaust you will be deliberately deceiving your readers.

No way. Ohlendorf's testimony is consistent. He only tells what every
serious student of the Holocaust knows: German policy towards the Jews of
Western Europe initially differed from its policy towards the Jews living
on Soviet territory. Only later did a more uniform policy, exploit those
capable of work or with otherise valuable skills for the German war
effort, including the ability to be used as bargaining chips, and
exterminate those who were of no immediate economic value.
 
> But there's other evidence refuting Ohlendorf's testimony about Jews
> being killed. Let's talk about Ohlendorf's description of how the Jews
> and the Krimchaks were treated. Here's what you quoted from Ohlendorf'
> testimony:
> 
> >
> > Q. Now during your direct examination you told this Court that you
> had no
> > idea, and that you have no cause today to think that there was any
> plan to
> > exterminate the Jewish race in existence, nor that you had any
> information
> > of putting it into effect. Is that right?
> >
> > A. Yes.
> >
> > Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was
> > between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ?
> >
> > A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern
> Jews,
> > in the case  of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign.
> These
> > Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that
> they
> > were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as
> > endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews
> who
> > were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all
> of
> > Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my
> > dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all
> costs to
> > get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed
> showed
> > that the charge of the prosecution that persons were     persecuted
> for
> > their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish
> religion,
> > but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the
> Jewish
> > race.
> >
> 
> 
> One of those dubious documents emanating from Ferencz's Jewish staff in
> Berlin purporting to be a translation of Operational Situation Report
> USSR No. 157, dated January 19, 1942, concerning the activities of
> Einsatzgruppe D and the situation in
> Simferopol, described what happened to the Krimchaks and the Jews--at
> the same time.
> 
> (Begin quote)
> 
> The mood was also influenced by the deportaion of Jews, Gypsies and
> Krimchacks from the Crimea during the period under report. The
> unfounded fear that the Germans would exterminate the entire population
> had subsided entirely a few weeks after the occupation of the Crimea.
> It was revived when the deportation of 12 - 13,000 Jews,
> Krimchaks and Gypsies was started in the beginning of December. It
> surfaced for the first time due to Bolshevik proaganda spread by Jewish
> refugees and [German]soldiers' gossip; the Jews were convinced that
> they would be shot and not deported, while the population was terrified
> of being deported by the Germans. ...
> 
> The deportation of the Jews, Krimchaks, and Gypsies, which is seen
> almost without exception as the last deportation, is generally
> welcomed. This again proves the general rejection of Jewry on the part
> of the population, in the countryside as well as in the towns. The
> identical treatment for Jews and Krimchaks is looked upon as natural
> because the Krimchaks are generally regarded as Jews.
> (end quote)
> 
> So it looks like Ohlendorf lied again--at least in that part of his
> testimony. The Jews were deported along with the Krimchaks.  

Ohlendorf states clearly that "deportation" was a ruse for liquidation.
With regard to the Krimchaks he says:


MR. HEATH: [deletions) I understood that you were confronted in the south
of Russia with the question further to  slaughter Krimchaks. Krimchaks I
understood were human beings who had come by way of Italy to Russia, and
they had Jewish
blood. The directive which you got from Berlin was to kill the Krimchaks,
is that correct? 

DEFENDANT OHLENDORF : Yes. 



> Of course,
> Ohlendorf might have testified to something else somewhere else. But as
> far as we can tell from existing evidence, however dubious, we
> certainly cannot rely on the testimony of Ohlendorf as proof of
> anything.

Since Ohlendorf was the commander of Einsatzgruppe D and thus partially
responsible for identifying and rounding up people for deportation, I
cannot understand why he should not be regarded as a credible witness.
Your claim that he had made statements claiming one thing in is
deposition, and somethign else when speaking freely in court, is also
shown to be false. Ohlendorf stated consistently that he had received
orders to kill Jews and Bolsheviks in his operational area of the occupied
Soviet Union. The matter-of-fact manner in which he described the
implementation of the mass murders thatwere carried out under his
supervision made a lasting impression on the courts in which he testified.

> Oh, I know that sort of stuff is the only proof you have. I'm not
> unmindful of the complete absence of evidence of any holocaust.  I
> recognize the difficulty you face in trying to prove something that
> never really happened. It's like trying to prove the existence of the
> Easter Bunny (see? Easter eggs!).  But I suggest it will save you much
> anguish if you simply accept the obvious: the holocaust is a lie.

Ohlendorf testified as an expert witness at the trial of Ernst
Kaltenbrunner Nuremburg, as well as in his own defence at the
Einsatzgruppen trial. At both trials he gave detailed information about
the orders he had received to commit mass murder as well as cold-blooded
descriptions of their implementation. What Ohlendorf testified about the
activities of the Einsatzgruppen in the Nazi-occupied parts of the Soviet
Union is consistent with large amounts of evidence from other sources.

The Holocaust happened.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:02 EST 2005
Article: 1044756 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education.sci,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:16:30 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116776871.292788.196370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1116642274.912545.29850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> 
> >
> > No. I have demonstrated quite clearly that you have lied extensively
> about
> > Ohlendorf's testimony at Nuremberg concerning the orders for the
> Holocaust
> > as well as the manner in which he participated in it.
> 
> I didn't lie at all about Ohlendorf's testimony-- I QUOTED IT. 

You quoted a part of it that was consistent with your agenda. You omitted
the very important parts in which he stated that he had received *specific
orders* to kill Jews and Bolsheviks in Russia at a conference for the
leaders of the Einsatzgruppen at Pretz three or four days before the
beginning of *Barbarossa*, that these orders were based on a Hitler Decree
and instructions for their implementation given by Strelenbach, and that
when confronted with a semantic dilemma that could cost many innocent
lives he had contacted Berlin to make sure that 'Jew' was being
interpreted racially rather than religiously when he had to determine what
to do with the Karaims (Jews by religion, but nor by race) and the
Krimchaks (Jews by religion and race). 

> Which
> should put reasonable people on notice that there is something
> fundamentally wrong with Ohlendorf's testimony and it shouldn't be
> accepted as evidence of anything. Ohlendorf totally contradicts
> himself. 

He most certainly does not. He explains that he was unaware of any
systematic plan to kill all the Jews in Europe, but states quite
specifically that he particiapted in a conference for the leaders of the
Einsatzgruppen where orders were given to liquidate Jews and Bolsheviks in
the parts of the Soviet Union that Germany planned to capture and occupy.
He even went so far as to explain this policy as being consistent with the
ideology of National Socialism, which regarded Jewish blood as a factor
making people who have it particularly susceptible to Bolshevism. He also
states that as far as he knew, when he was commanding his Einsatzgruppe D,
Nazi policy towards the Jews in Russia was to kill them, but the policy
towards the Jews in the West was to force them to emigrate. There is
nothing inconsistent about this except for the fact that the Nazis made
Jewish emigration from the Reich illegal on October 23, 1941. There is no
reason that Ohlendorf, deep in the Soviet Union supervising the
"deportation" and mass-murder of local Jews on a day-to-day basis at this
time, should have been aware of this policy change.

> So now, since everyone is aware of the inconsistencies in
> Ohlendorf's testimony, including you, every time you and the rest of
> the holocaust promoters offer Ohlendorf's testimony as proof of some
> holocaust you will be deliberately deceiving your readers.

No way. Ohlendorf's testimony is consistent. He only tells what every
serious student of the Holocaust knows: German policy towards the Jews of
Western Europe initially differed from its policy towards the Jews living
on Soviet territory. Only later did a more uniform policy evolve: exploit
those Jews capable of work or with otherise valuable skills for the German
war effort, including the ability to be used as bargaining chips, and
exterminate as useless mouths to feed those who were of no immediate
economic value.
 
> But there's other evidence refuting Ohlendorf's testimony about Jews
> being killed. Let's talk about Ohlendorf's description of how the Jews
> and the Krimchaks were treated. Here's what you quoted from Ohlendorf'
> testimony:
> 
> >
> > Q. Now during your direct examination you told this Court that you
> had no
> > idea, and that you have no cause today to think that there was any
> plan to
> > exterminate the Jewish race in existence, nor that you had any
> information
> > of putting it into effect. Is that right?
> >
> > A. Yes.
> >
> > Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was
> > between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ?
> >
> > A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern
> Jews,
> > in the case  of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign.
> These
> > Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that
> they
> > were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as
> > endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews
> who
> > were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all
> of
> > Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my
> > dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all
> costs to
> > get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed
> showed
> > that the charge of the prosecution that persons were     persecuted
> for
> > their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish
> religion,
> > but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the
> Jewish
> > race.
> >
> 
> 
> One of those dubious documents emanating from Ferencz's Jewish staff in
> Berlin purporting to be a translation of Operational Situation Report
> USSR No. 157, dated January 19, 1942, concerning the activities of
> Einsatzgruppe D and the situation in
> Simferopol, described what happened to the Krimchaks and the Jews--at
> the same time.
> 
> (Begin quote)
> 
> The mood was also influenced by the deportaion of Jews, Gypsies and
> Krimchacks from the Crimea during the period under report. The
> unfounded fear that the Germans would exterminate the entire population
> had subsided entirely a few weeks after the occupation of the Crimea.
> It was revived when the deportation of 12 - 13,000 Jews,
> Krimchaks and Gypsies was started in the beginning of December. It
> surfaced for the first time due to Bolshevik proaganda spread by Jewish
> refugees and [German]soldiers' gossip; the Jews were convinced that
> they would be shot and not deported, while the population was terrified
> of being deported by the Germans. ...
> 
> The deportation of the Jews, Krimchaks, and Gypsies, which is seen
> almost without exception as the last deportation, is generally
> welcomed. This again proves the general rejection of Jewry on the part
> of the population, in the countryside as well as in the towns. The
> identical treatment for Jews and Krimchaks is looked upon as natural
> because the Krimchaks are generally regarded as Jews.
> (end quote)
> 
> So it looks like Ohlendorf lied again--at least in that part of his
> testimony. The Jews were deported along with the Krimchaks.  

Ohlendorf states clearly that "deportation" was a ruse for liquidation.
With regard to the Krimchaks he says:


MR. HEATH: [deletions) I understood that you were confronted in the south
of Russia with the question further to  slaughter Krimchaks. Krimchaks I
understood were human beings who had come by way of Italy to Russia, and
they had Jewish blood. The directive which you got from Berlin was to kill
the Krimchaks,
is that correct? 

DEFENDANT OHLENDORF : Yes. 



> Of course,
> Ohlendorf might have testified to something else somewhere else. But as
> far as we can tell from existing evidence, however dubious, we
> certainly cannot rely on the testimony of Ohlendorf as proof of
> anything.

Since Ohlendorf was the commander of Einsatzgruppe D and thus partially
responsible for identifying and rounding up people for deportation, in a
large sector of the occupied Soviet Union, I cannot understand why he
should not be regarded as a credible witness. Your claim that he had made
statements claiming one thing in his
deposition, and somethign else when speaking freely in court, is also
shown to be false. Ohlendorf stated consistently that he had received
orders to kill Jews and Bolsheviks in his operational area of the occupied
Soviet Union. The matter-of-fact manner in which he described the
implementation of the mass murders that were carried out under his
supervision made a lasting impression on the courts in which he testified.

> Oh, I know that sort of stuff is the only proof you have. I'm not
> unmindful of the complete absence of evidence of any holocaust.  I
> recognize the difficulty you face in trying to prove something that
> never really happened. It's like trying to prove the existence of the
> Easter Bunny (see? Easter eggs!).  But I suggest it will save you much
> anguish if you simply accept the obvious: the holocaust is a lie.

Ohlendorf testified as an expert witness at the trial of Ernst
Kaltenbrunner at Nuremburg, as well as in his own defence at the
Einsatzgruppen trial. At both trials he gave detailed information about
the orders he had received to commit mass murder as well as cold-blooded
descriptions of their implementation. What Ohlendorf testified about the
activities of the Einsatzgruppen in the Nazi-occupied parts of the Soviet
Union is consistent with large amounts of evidence from other sources.

The Holocaust happened. Arguing that it did not happen means discrediting
every witness and post-war trial in every country, ignoring the fact that
in the Baltic countries, for example, there were 350,000 Jews before the
war and only 20,000 after it, with many of the mass murders, such as the
ones at Rumbula and Liepaja, exceptionally well documented, and claiming
that every document presented in support of the Holocaust was forged or
mistranslated.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:02 EST 2005
Article: 1044827 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education.sci,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:08:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 205
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In article <1116776871.292788.196370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Morghus"  wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1116642274.912545.29850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> 
> >
> > No. I have demonstrated quite clearly that you have lied extensively
> about
> > Ohlendorf's testimony at Nuremberg concerning the orders for the
> Holocaust
> > as well as the manner in which he participated in it.
> 
> I didn't lie at all about Ohlendorf's testimony-- I QUOTED IT. 

You quoted a part of it that was consistent with your agenda. You omitted
the very important parts in which he stated that he had received *specific
orders* to kill Jews and Bolsheviks in Russia at a conference for the
leaders of the Einsatzgruppen at Pretz three or four days before the
beginning of *Barbarossa*, that these orders were based on a Hitler Decree
and instructions for their implementation given by Streckenbach, and that
when confronted with a semantic dilemma that could cost many innocent
lives he had contacted Berlin to make sure that 'Jew' was being
interpreted racially rather than religiously when he had to determine what
to do with the Karaims (Jews by religion, but nor by race) and the
Krimchaks (Jews by religion and race). 

> Which
> should put reasonable people on notice that there is something
> fundamentally wrong with Ohlendorf's testimony and it shouldn't be
> accepted as evidence of anything. Ohlendorf totally contradicts
> himself. 

He most certainly does not. He explains that he was unaware of any
systematic plan to kill all the Jews in Europe, but states quite
specifically that he particiapted in a conference for the leaders of the
Einsatzgruppen where orders were given to liquidate Jews and Bolsheviks in
the parts of the Soviet Union that Germany planned to capture and occupy.
He even went so far as to explain this policy as being consistent with the
ideology of National Socialism, which regarded Jewish blood as a factor
making people who have it particularly susceptible to Bolshevism. He also
states that as far as he knew, when he was commanding his Einsatzgruppe D,
Nazi policy towards the Jews in Russia was to kill them, but the policy
towards the Jews in the West was to force them to emigrate. There is
nothing inconsistent about this except for the fact that the Nazis made
Jewish emigration from the Reich illegal on October 23, 1941. There is no
reason to assume that Ohlendorf, deep in the Soviet Union supervising the
"deportation" and mass-murder of local Jews on a day-to-day basis at this
time, should have been aware of this policy change or had reason to think
about its eventual implications.

> So now, since everyone is aware of the inconsistencies in
> Ohlendorf's testimony, including you, every time you and the rest of
> the holocaust promoters offer Ohlendorf's testimony as proof of some
> holocaust you will be deliberately deceiving your readers.

No way. Ohlendorf's testimony is consistent. He only tells what every
serious student of the Holocaust knows: German policy towards the Jews of
Western Europe initially differed from its policy towards the Jews living
on Soviet territory. Only later did a more uniform policy evolve: exploit
those Jews capable of work or with otherwise valuable skills for the
German war effort, including the ability to be used as bargaining chips,
and exterminate as useless mouths to feed those who were of no immediate
economic value.
 
> But there's other evidence refuting Ohlendorf's testimony about Jews
> being killed. Let's talk about Ohlendorf's description of how the Jews
> and the Krimchaks were treated. Here's what you quoted from Ohlendorf'
> testimony:
> 
> >
> > Q. Now during your direct examination you told this Court that you
> had no
> > idea, and that you have no cause today to think that there was any
> plan to
> > exterminate the Jewish race in existence, nor that you had any
> information
> > of putting it into effect. Is that right?
> >
> > A. Yes.
> >
> > Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was
> > between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ?
> >
> > A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern
> Jews,
> > in the case  of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign.
> These
> > Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that
> they
> > were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as
> > endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews
> who
> > were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all
> of
> > Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my
> > dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all
> costs to
> > get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed
> showed
> > that the charge of the prosecution that persons were     persecuted
> for
> > their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish
> religion,
> > but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the
> Jewish
> > race.
> >
> 
> 
> One of those dubious documents emanating from Ferencz's Jewish staff in
> Berlin purporting to be a translation of Operational Situation Report
> USSR No. 157, dated January 19, 1942, concerning the activities of
> Einsatzgruppe D and the situation in
> Simferopol, described what happened to the Krimchaks and the Jews--at
> the same time.
> 
> (Begin quote)
> 
> The mood was also influenced by the deportaion of Jews, Gypsies and
> Krimchacks from the Crimea during the period under report. The
> unfounded fear that the Germans would exterminate the entire population
> had subsided entirely a few weeks after the occupation of the Crimea.
> It was revived when the deportation of 12 - 13,000 Jews,
> Krimchaks and Gypsies was started in the beginning of December. It
> surfaced for the first time due to Bolshevik proaganda spread by Jewish
> refugees and [German]soldiers' gossip; the Jews were convinced that
> they would be shot and not deported, while the population was terrified
> of being deported by the Germans. ...
> 
> The deportation of the Jews, Krimchaks, and Gypsies, which is seen
> almost without exception as the last deportation, is generally
> welcomed. This again proves the general rejection of Jewry on the part
> of the population, in the countryside as well as in the towns. The
> identical treatment for Jews and Krimchaks is looked upon as natural
> because the Krimchaks are generally regarded as Jews.
> (end quote)
> 
> So it looks like Ohlendorf lied again--at least in that part of his
> testimony. The Jews were deported along with the Krimchaks.  

Ohlendorf states clearly that "deportation" was a ruse for liquidation.
With regard to the Krimchaks he says:


MR. HEATH: [deletions] I understood that you were confronted in the south
of Russia with the question further to  slaughter Krimchaks. Krimchaks I
understood were human beings who had come by way of Italy to Russia, and
they had Jewish blood. The directive which you got from Berlin was to kill
the Krimchaks, is that correct? 

DEFENDANT OHLENDORF : Yes. 



> Of course,
> Ohlendorf might have testified to something else somewhere else. But as
> far as we can tell from existing evidence, however dubious, we
> certainly cannot rely on the testimony of Ohlendorf as proof of
> anything.

Since Ohlendorf was the commander of Einsatzgruppe D and thus partially
responsible for identifying and rounding up people for deportation, in a
large sector of the occupied Soviet Union, I cannot understand why he
should not be regarded as a credible witness. Your claim that he had made
statements claiming one thing in his deposition, and somethign else when
speaking freely in court, is also shown to be false. Ohlendorf stated
consistently that he had received orders to kill the racial Jews and
Bolsheviks in his operational area of the occupied Soviet Union. The
matter-of-fact manner in which he described the implementation of the mass
murders that were carried out under his supervision made a lasting
impression on the courts in which he testified.

> Oh, I know that sort of stuff is the only proof you have. I'm not
> unmindful of the complete absence of evidence of any holocaust.  I
> recognize the difficulty you face in trying to prove something that
> never really happened. It's like trying to prove the existence of the
> Easter Bunny (see? Easter eggs!).  But I suggest it will save you much
> anguish if you simply accept the obvious: the holocaust is a lie.

Ohlendorf testified as an expert witness at the trial of Ernst
Kaltenbrunner at Nuremburg, as well as in his own defence at the
Einsatzgruppen trial. At both trials he provided detailed information
about the orders he had received to commit mass murder in addition to
shocking the court with detailed and cold-blooded descriptions of their
implementation. What Ohlendorf testified about the activities of his
Einsatzgruppe D in the Nazi-occupied parts of the Soviet Union that he was
in charge of "cleansing" is consistent both with large amounts of evidence
>from other sources as well as with even more evidence about the murderous
activities of Einsatzgruppen A, B, and C elsewhere on the eastern front
along a line stretching from Estonia all the way to the Crimean Peninsula
and involving a large swath of Soviet territory reaching as far east as
the suburbs of Leningrad and Moscow, and Stalingrad.

The Holocaust happened. Arguing that it did not happen means discrediting
every witness and every piece of evidence and post-war trial in every
country, ignoring the fact that in the Baltic countries, for example,
there were 350,000 Jews before the war and only 20,000 after it, with many
of the mass murders, such as the ones at Rumbula and Liepaja, being
exceptionally well documented, and claiming that each and every document
presented in support of the Holocaust was forged, obtained by torture, or
misconstrued.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:03 EST 2005
Article: 1044866 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:18:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116837140.978435.52610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "Flying
Elephant"  wrote:

> So why didn't they kill little Ann Frank and her family... 

Because they were healthy, capable of work, as well as useful as potential
bargaining chips.

> They all
> died of typhus or whatever sickness as far as i know, after being
> transferred from one camp to another.

Anne's, father, Otto, survived. Her mother died of unspecified causes.
Anne and Margot died of typhus a few weeks before the war ended. The other
four people in hiding with the Frank family died of various causes, at
least one being gassed and another pushed beyond the limits of human
endurance by a death march (for details, see
http://www.geocities.com/afdiary/after.htm).

> And why has Auschwitz death figures been brought down from 4 million to
> 1 million (including roms, commies, dissidents, jews, etc..)

The 4 million figure was a rough estimate that was already challenged in
1946 just like, indeed, the initial estimates of casualties for the WTC
attacks on Septmeber 11 were in the range of 4,000 to 5,000.
 
> And why has Auschwitz say that his "touristic" gaz chambers is only a
> reconstitution...

Krema I at Auschwitz-Stammlager is a museumification of a building that
has served as a morgue, a gas chamber, an abandoned gas chamber, and an
air-raid shelter. Insofar as has been possible, it has been museumified to
approximate the condition that it had when serving as a gas chamber. Since
the other gas chambers were partially or totally demolished, the decision
was made to museumify this, the only structure housing a gas chamber at
Auschwitz to survive the war (for details, see
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Gaskammern.html).

> Who destroyed ALL of the other gaz chambers...

Krema II was destroyed in conjunction with a revolt of the
Sonderkomamndos. Kremas III, IV, and V were destroyed by the Nazis in an
effort to destroy as much evidence of mass murder as they could. During
the last months of the war Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler was trying to
negotiate a deal with the Western Allies according to which they would
team up with Germany and attack the Soviet Union. In order to make this
offer more palatable, he orderd gassings and abuse of the Jews to be
halted. At Bernburg [http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/GALL35R/BERN09.HTM],
Majdanek [http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Majdanek/Majdanek02.html],
and Mauthausen [http://www.concentrationcampguide.com/MauthGas.html] the
gas chambers were not destroyed and may still be seen today.

> And why can't we find a real gaz chamber... The allies never bombarded the
> camps as far as i know

A functional gas chamber is any enclosure where people can be trapped long
enough for a lethal agent introduced to the ambient air to kill them. The
Nazis would have been insane if they had built a gas chamber that looks
anything like an American penal gas chamber (see e.g.
http://www.geradts.com/~anil/ij/vol_002_no_002/reviews/pb/page003a.html).
If you are going to kill a thousand or more people at a time, you want to
do this in a harmless-looking room in which you can replicate and control
something like the situation that arose in the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow
when an attempt to free hostages by introducing a fast-acting andm,in
principle, non-lethal anesthetic into the ambient air of the auditorium
resulted in the gassing deaths of more thanh 130 people. If cyanide had
been used everyone would have died. The Dubrovka Theater gassing tragedy
demonstrates how easy it is to gas people and then disperse the gas if you
know what you are doing. A  functional gas chamber does not have to be a
"real" gas chamber of the American penal variety.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:03 EST 2005
Article: 1044905 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:22:07 +0300
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In article <1116854304.496251.269570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Flying Elephant"  wrote:

> Sorry, not very convincing....

If you are going to engage in serious debate you have to justify your
claims and critique. Just saying "not very convincing.." doesn't cut the
mustard.

Exactly what is "not very convincing", why, and on what grounds?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:04 EST 2005
Article: 1044997 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:37:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116900110.568872.235900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
lorad474@cs.com wrote:


> 
> Hole-man was just recently and comprehensively corrected by a
> Hunagarian who pointed out that the linguistic realtionship between
> Hungarian and Finnish is very remote and tenuous. 

He did not correct me at all. He made some grumblings about not accepting
the methodology of historical linguistics and offered some
glottochronological nonsense in its stead. The only Finno-Ugric language
that he knows is Hungarian, and he demonstreated that he has never studied
its history. I have a fair knowledge of the structure and history of
Hungarian and a complete command of Finnish, so I was quite aware of the
remoteness of the linguistic relationship before participating in the
exchange, thank you very much. The issue was one of the tenuousness of the
relationship. The Hungarian was forced to concede that there are enough
systematic phonological and lexical correspondences between Finnish,
Hungarian, and the two Ob-Ugrian languages, Mansi and Khanty, to serve as
the basis for the claim that these languages are remotely related, nothing
more, nothing less. Let me also remind you that the Hungarian showed his
ignorance of linguistics by stating that he did not regard Persian or
Bulgarian as being related to English, a claim that aroused a few
well-earned guffaws from those who know better.

> Yet a few weeks later
> he is back at it. There is nothing to hole-man's claims because he is
> simply, a serial liar.



Says the man who repeatedly claims that Gothic was a Baltic rather than a
Germanic language.

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:04 EST 2005
Article: 1045012 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:35:13 +0300
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In article <1193ug2ed8j7v2f@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman" wrote:
> >
> [...]
> > A functional gas chamber is any enclosure where people can be trapped long
> > enough for a lethal agent introduced to the ambient air to kill them. The
> > Nazis would have been insane if they had built a gas chamber that looks
> > anything like an American penal gas chamber (see e.g.
> > http://www.geradts.com/~anil/ij/vol_002_no_002/reviews/pb/page003a.html).
> > If you are going to kill a thousand or more people at a time, you want to
> > do this in a harmless-looking room in which you can replicate and control
> > something like the situation that arose in the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow
> > when an attempt to free hostages by introducing a fast-acting andm,in
> > principle, non-lethal anesthetic into the ambient air of the auditorium
> > resulted in the gassing deaths of more thanh 130 people. If cyanide had
> > been used everyone would have died. The Dubrovka Theater gassing tragedy
> > demonstrates how easy it is to gas people and then disperse the gas if you
> > know what you are doing. A  functional gas chamber does not have to be a
> > "real" gas chamber of the American penal variety.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> To Scott's excellent contribution about the growth of Revisionism he
> received from two users a barrage of insults and from our history researcher
> the puny effort and lame explanation "A functional gas chamber is any
> enclosure where people can be trapped."

No. What I wrote was:

"A functional gas chamber is any enclosure where people can be trapped long
enough for a lethal agent introduced to the ambient air to kill them."

If you are going to quote incomplete sentences, please indicate this with
three periods:

"A functional gas chamber is any enclosure where people can be trapped..."

My full sentence makes perfectly good sense, your truncated version does not.  

>. Mr. Holman attempts to convince the
> reader (and probably himself also) that a room, which is clearly designed
> and built as a morgue attached to a crematorium, a room which has all the
> typical features of a morgue, is really a homicidal gas chamber. 

That is not what I claimed. I said that it has the attributes necessary
for it to be capable of *functioning* as a gas chamber. The Nazis were not
going to construct some engineering marvel that looked like a penal gas
chamber to the people lining up to enter it, or to the people examining
architectural plans after the war for signs of criminal intent. The rooms
were obviously designed and constructed to look like morgues, but they
were capable of being used as gas chambers, something that historical,
testimonial, architectural, and forensic evidence indicates that they
were.

> He is still
> searching for the alleged Zyklon-B insertion holes in the concrete ceiling
> of the morgue.

Did the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow have lethal gas insertion holes? Does a
room that is going to be fumigated with Zyklon-B? Getting the gas into the
room is the easy part, far more difficult is the task of getting the
intended victims to enter it.
 
> None of these contributors really responded to Scott's suggestion about the
> growth of Revisionism.

I certainly did. My point was that revisionism often focuses on many
trivial issues, of which the above is a good example. Any competent
exterminator can introduce the lethal agent to the ambient air in a place
to be fumigated, no special insertion holes or devices are needed. Even
most revisionists do not deny that both Leuchter and the Cracow group
found cyanide residues on the walls of most of the places alleged to have
been gas chambers, or that Leuchter attributes this to the places having
been routinely fumigated with cyanide. This would mean that, insertion
holes or not, lethal concentrations of cyanide were generated and then
dispersed in the rooms concerned, and that any people that happened to be
in them at the time would have been killed. The revisionist "No holes, no
Holocaust!" slogan is one of the stupidest ones I have ever heard.

> Interesting here is maybe an article by Paul Eisen of the Israel Shamir
> group: "The Holocaust Wars"
> http://www.israelshamir.net/friends/Contributor13.htm :
> [quote]He then told his audience what Zionists do fear: They fear the
> weapons of those who have nothing left to lose - the poor and the weak.
> They fear the stones and suicide bombers of the Palestinian Intifada - and
> they fear the weapons of that other intifada - the words of the
> revisionists.

If the revisionists can offer nothing better than Faurisson's "No holes,
no Holocaust!", Leuchter's botched report, and David Irving's proven lies
and distortions, true historians have nothing to be concerned about.

> Zionists truly fear the weapons of the poor (children's stones, their
> slingshots like that of David against the giant Goliath, the suicide
> attacks) and all that may endanger persons and business; they fear a
> demeaning of their brand image.  But they are above all apprehensive of "the
> poor man's atomic bomb", that is, the disintegration, by historical
> revisionism, of the lie of the gas chambers, 

It is hardly a lie. There is abundant evidence, including almost intact
gas chambers at Majdanek, Mauthausen, and Bernburg, that the Nazis killed
people in gas chambers within the framework of the T-4 euthanasia program
(Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, Sonnenstein), as
well as at the camps and extermination facilities in occupied Poland
(Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka; Majdanek), the Reich
(Auschwitz-Stammlager, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Mauthausen, Stutthof,
Neuengamme, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen), and France (Natzweiler), that the
Nazis were willing and able to use poison gas to eliminate individuals
that they regarded as "useless mouths to feed" or threats to Reich
security. There is far too much evidence for the use of different kinds of
gas chambers by the Nazis to kill people for various reasons for all of it
to be merely dismissed as "lies". 

> the genocide and the six
> million; they dread this weapon that kills no-one but that would not fail,
> if properly used to explode their big lie like a bag of hot air...to lose
> the "Holocaust" is to lose the sword and the shield of Israel as well as a
> formidable instrument of political and financial blackmail;  (21)[/quote]

The Holocaust will eventually fade from memory, like the genocide of
Armenians by the Turks, the artifical famine in the Ukraine and other
Soviet atrocities,  or the mass murder of the Herare by the Germans in
South-West Africa. That is why it is important that historians defend
historical truth against the assaults of those who would deny, distort,
and deprecate historical fact. The Holocaust involved enough people and
teaches us enough important things about human nature for it to have
earned a permanent place in our universal historical memory. 
 
> The story of the alleged homicidal gas chambers will fall, there is no doubt
> about it, regardless of the testimonies of many eyewitnesses, survivors and
> perpetrators. 

No it won't. Among the other evidence for the gas chambers are the films,
pictures, and laboratory reports that the Nazis made when they were
perfecting mass execution methodology within the T-4 program and at
Chelmno, which was a pilot extrmination center. Some of this material, now
stored in German archives, was produced as evidence at the Nuremberg
trials.

> And the German courts, who were involved in the Auschwitz
> court trial and sentenced many accused to lifetime prison terms, will then
> have to do a lot of explaining to the German people.

Certainly history will reveal that some errors were made, and that some
people suffered injustice, while some of the real villains succeeded in
escaping all responsibility. I hove no reason to doubt, for example, that
Ohlendorf was telling the truth when he testified that his orders had been
to liquidate all racial Jews in the Soviet Union as potential security
threats, but that he had no reason to suspect that these orders, criminal
as they were, were part of a larger and more comprehensive plan to rid
Europe of Jews altogether. Only a select few at the highest level of the
Nazi administration, specifically Himmler and Eichmann, as well as
murderous technocrats at the implementation level such as Jeckeln, could
have been aware of the comprehensiveness of the plan, and it was not
really underway until the spring of 1942. Indeed, in 1941 when Ohlendorf's
men were busy murdering the Jews and Gypsies in their sector of southern
Russia, the plan might not yet even have existed except in the criminal
minds of people such as Heydrich, Himmler, and Jeckeln.

Reagrds,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:05 EST 2005
Article: 1045017 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:56:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1195ah1jl0t5098@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-2405050637180001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>
> I admire greatly your knowledge on these linguistic specialties, Eugene.
> I myself am only a retired  electrical engineer, und would rather discuss
> the existence of the alleged homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau.

So would I, at least in this forum.

Now that we are on it, would you be kind enough to tell my why you object
so strenuously to my using the Dubrovka theater accident as a model for
the Auschwitz gas chambers?

If you want to commit a crime and leave as little evidence of criminal
intent behind as possible, the best strategy would be to study accidents
that produce the same result as you would like your crime to produce and
then attempt to replicate such an accident. Although I have never heard of
an indoor gassing accident that produced as many casualties as the Moscow
tragedy did, the Nazis certainly had access to investigations of lethal
mass-gassing accidents in addition to having the ability to simulate them.

At an execution in a penal establishment the victim is far outnumbered by
the staff and has no hope of using violence to escape his fate. Since he
is being punished for his crimes by having his life extinguished, the gas
chamber has to look like an instrument of retribution, It is, after all,
the last thing that the prisoner will have a memory of. At a concentration
camp, the considerations are quite different. The people to be gassed are
not being punished, rather they are being eliminated as useless eaters,
people who are of more value to the powers that be dead than alive. There
are also far more of them than there are personnel implementing the
gassing. The only way to maintain order is to keep the people to be gassed
unaware of their fate until they are securely locked inside the gassing
facility and begin to notice the faint odor of almonds in the ambient air.
Then some will scream and go into a panic, which, of course, will make
them breath harder and thus inhale even more of the lethal gas. If the gas
is really fast acting, two or three breaths will induce unconsciousness,
with death quickly following.

Why are you unable to accept that a gas chamber working on this principle
would be a better solution than one with fancy technology that would make
it look like a gas chamber or at least something threatening? If you
accept that replicating a gassing accident was all that the Nazis needed
to be able to do in order to kill large numbers of people, you will see
that the morgues under the crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau were eminently
suited to serve as functional gas chambers.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:05 EST 2005
Article: 1045029 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Russian Puppets Hiding In Mufti
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:13:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116909192.619771.261280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
lorad474@cs.com wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > lorad474@cs.com wrote:
> >
> >  Always deleting what ails ya, eh, hole-man?

I don't need to repost material that I choose not to comment on.

> > > Hole-man was just recently and comprehensively corrected

Corrected???? Hahahahahahahaha! See below.

> > > by a
> > > Hunagarian who pointed out that the linguistic realtionship between
> > > Hungarian and Finnish is very remote and tenuous.
> >
> > He did not correct me at all. He made some grumblings about not
> accepting
> > the methodology of historical linguistics and offered some
> > glottochronological nonsense in its stead. The only Finno-Ugric
> language
> > that he knows is Hungarian, and he demonstreated that he has never
> studied
> > its history. I have a fair knowledge of the structure and history of
> > Hungarian and a complete command of Finnish, so I was quite aware of
> the
> > remoteness of the linguistic relationship before participating in the
> > exchange, thank you very much.
> 
> What you claim you might know is of no consequence.

It enabled me to beat the pants off of magyar fiu.

> But the fact that your were proved incorrect, time and again, does have
> consequence; it means you are a self-deluded ignorant.

He *didn't* prove me incorrect. He made some silly statements about not
believing in the methodology of historical linguistics. That doesn't prove
anything. It only shows that he rejects the accepted methodology used in
the field to which he is trying to contribute. Unfortunately, his
alternative was glottochronology and Swadesh lists, a pseudo-scientific
methodology that was never taken seriously and was pretty much debunked by
the early 1960s.
 
> > The issue was one of the tenuousness of the
> > relationship. The Hungarian was forced to concede that there are
> enough
> > systematic phonological and lexical correspondences between Finnish,
> > Hungarian, and the two Ob-Ugrian languages, Mansi and Khanty, to
> serve as
> > the basis for the claim that these languages are remotely related,
> nothing
> > more, nothing less.
> 
> That never occurred. You are now substituting fantasy episodic delerium
> for reality, as well.

Ho hum.

Source: 
From: "transam" 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Plural in sentence in Finnish and Estonian
Date: 14 Apr 2005 00:47:08 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <1113464828.773346.257900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> 


"remote relationship" is remote relationship, nothing more or
less. 


Source:
From: "transam" 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Plural in sentence in Finnish and Estonian
Date: 23 Mar 2005 02:09:53 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <1111572593.627519.302230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> 


The relationship between Hungarian and Finnish is a very far one.
Persian is not Indo-european, it is a Hungarian one, even if the
lying promoters (like the mason Schl=F6zer) try to falsify it.
Neither is Hindi pure Indo-European. Its agglutinating roots
are clearly visible.

Regards, transam.


So, you think that Transam's unsubstantiated claims that:

1. The relationship between Hungarian and Finnish is a very far one;
2. Persian is not Indo-european, it is a Hungarian one [presumably
Hungarian-related language];
3. Some people who claim that Persian is Indo-European lie and are
associated with freemasonry;
4. Hindi not pure Indo-European because its agglutinating roots
are clearly visible;

prove me to be incorrect.

As to claim number one, I have never argued otherwise. Finnish and
Hungarian have about 5,000 years of separate history behind them. I've
stated here more than once that their relationship is so distant that it
can only be appreciated by someone who is familiar with the methodology of
historical linguistics. nevertheless, it is still clearly discernable in
systematic sound correspondences in the initial syllable of inherited
lexical items and functional morphemes: F kala = H hal 'fish', F kolme = H
három 'three', F kuusi ~ kuute- = H hat 'six', F kuole- = H hal- 'die'.

As to claim number two, anybody familiar with the history of Modern
Persian knows that it has developed from old Persian, one of the
Indo-European languages of which we have an extensive set of written
records dating back more than two thousand years. To state that Persian is
not Indo-European is as absurd as stating that English is not
Indo-European. To state that Persian is related to Hungarian shows a total
ignorance of linguistic history.

As to claim number three, more than two thousand years of uninterrupted
and well documented transmission demosntrate that Persian is
Indo-European. How freemasony has any bearing on this issue is beyond me.

As to claim number four, Hindi is one of the modern languages that have
developed from the Prakrits which, in turn, developed from very
Indo-European Sanskrit. Transom's real problem, though, is that he bases
his claim on the presence of "agglutinating roots". Firstly, there is no
such thing as "agglutinating roots"; agglutination is a morphological
technique used to construct words out of lexical roots and functional
suffixes. Secondly, use of a specific grammatical technique to construct
words cannot be used as a criterion for determining linguistic
relationship. Agglutination is one of the small set of grammatical
techniques available for constructing words, and it is found in virtually
all languages and language families: 
Chinese: wo 'I', women 'we'; ni 'thou', nimen 'ye'; ta 'he/she' tamen
'they'; zhongguo 'China', zhongguoren 'a Chinese person'; beijing
'Beijing'; beijingren 'a Beijinger'; 
Latin: amat 'he loves', amâbit 'he will love', amâbat 'he used to love',
amâbatur 'he is loved',  amäbitur 'he will be loved', amâbâtur 'he used to
be loved', etc.;
Finnish: talo 'house', talossa 'in the house', taloni 'my house',
talossani 'in my house', taloissa 'in the houses', taloissani 'in my
houses', taloissanikin 'in my houses, too'.
Hungarian: a ház 'the house', a házban 'in the house', a házam 'my house',
a házamban 'in my house', a házokban 'in the houses', a házaimban 'in my
houses'.
English: establish, disestablish, disestablishment, disestablishmentary, 
disestablsihmentarian, disestablishmentarianism,
antidisestablishmentarianism.

Agglutination can be regarded as a grammatical universal, even if some
languages, like Chinese, use it sparingly, while others, like Finnish and
Hungarian use it as the favored grammatical strategy throughout the
grammar. In some languages, such as Latin, agglutination is common in one
part of the grammar, such as the verb system, but used sparingly
elsewehere.

> 
> > Let me also remind you that the Hungarian showed his
> > ignorance of linguistics by stating that he did not regard Persian or
> > Bulgarian as being related to English, a claim that aroused a few
> > well-earned guffaws from those who know better.
> 
> I guffaw too - at you!
> In what alternate universe of yours do you imagine that Bulgarian is
> related to English in any meaningful way? Bulgarian was a Turkic
> language - not a Baltic-European one.

But the originally Turkic speaking Bulgarians moved to the Balkans and
underwent a language shift to Slavic. Modern Bulgarian is thus a Slavic
language and distantly but clearly related to English, as can be seen from
the numbers: edin, dva, tri, chetire, pet, shest, sedem, osem, devet,
deset.

> 
> > > Yet a few weeks later
> > > he is back at it. There is nothing to hole-man's claims because he
> is
> > > simply, a serial liar.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Says the man who repeatedly claims that Gothic was a Baltic rather
> than a
> > Germanic language.
> > \EH
> 
> Sure I say that, idiot. If for no other obvious reason - than that
> German did not exist as a language at the time. It was simply a Roman
> administrative term indescriminately applied to any and all nations
> north of Roman territory.

German and Germanic do not mean the same thing. A Germanic language is one
that has developed from an earlier language called Proto-Germanic. German
is one of the twenty or so Germanic languages.
 
> Hence 'germanic' has no internally referetial integrity as regards any
> language of the period in question.
> 
> The use of 'germanic' is as incorrectly chauvanistic as would the term
> 'americanic' be, for 6th century British languages.

Nonsense. Germanic is the term that is used to refer to all of the
languages that have developed from Proto-Germanic. It replaced the term
Teutonic, widely used in the 19th century. Neither is it 'chauvinistic'.
In German what English speakers call German is 'deutsch', but 'germanisch'
is the term used for the entire family: Englisch, Deutsch und Schwedisch
sind germanische Sprachen.

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:06 EST 2005
Article: 1045030 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Russian Agents Posing as Jewish People
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:21:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116913678.541188.109090@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
lorad474@cs.com wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > > I admire greatly your knowledge on these linguistic specialties,
> Eugene.
> > > I myself am only a retired  electrical engineer, und would rather
> discuss
> > > the existence of the alleged homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau.
> >
> > So would I, at least in this forum.
> 
> Wrong forum, stupid.
> Don't post this stuff to SCB.

Are you implying that discussion of the Holocaust, including revisionistic
interpretations, is of no relevance to SCB?

> > At an execution in a penal establishment the victim is far
> outnumbered by
> > the staff and has no hope of using violence to escape his fate. Since
> he
> > is being punished for his crimes by having his life extinguished, the
> gas
> > chamber has to look like an instrument of retribution, It is, after
> all,
> > the last thing that the prisoner will have a memory of. At a
> concentration
> > camp, the considerations are quite different. The people to be gassed
> are
> > not being punished, rather they are being eliminated as useless
> eaters,
> 
> Why are you using Kissinger's terminology?

The terminology was used by the Nazis during the 1930s to refer to
candidates for euthansia.

> Is there some symbolism intended?

What's you point?
 
> > people who are of more value to the powers that be dead than alive.
> There
> > are also far more of them than there are personnel implementing the
> > gassing. The only way to maintain order is to keep the people to be
> gassed
> > unaware of their fate until they are securely locked inside the
> gassing
> > facility and begin to notice the faint odor of almonds in the ambient
> air.
> > Then some will scream and go into a panic, which, of course, will
> make
> > them breath harder and thus inhale even more of the lethal gas. If
> the gas
> > is really fast acting, two or three breaths will induce
> unconsciousness,
> > with death quickly following.
> 
> Face it hole-man.. the way you meticulously describe the act of killing
> people - using your lugubriously fantasized embellishments... 

No. What is happening is that I am currently translating a book about the
Holocaust from Finnish into English. The chapter I am working on now is
called "Mitä Baltiassa tapahtui?" - "What happened in the Baltics?"

> ...- only
> indicates that there are major mental breakdowns going on in your head.

The voice of experience speaking, enh?
 
> You are one sick doggie. Mongrel.

Bow wow!

> Now, get lost and keep this crap away from decent people.

Writes the greatest purveyor of crap on the internet today.

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:06 EST 2005
Article: 1045035 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ground moved for three days at Riga Massacre
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:46:28 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 37
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> http://litek.ws/k0nsl/detox/
> Eyewitness:
> >>and they walked out a hundred at a time and they were machine gunned. For 
> >>three days...and then they covered them up with dirt. For three days, the 
> >>graves were moving up and down. They took tractors and ran over the graves 
> >>in order to squeeze out the last breath. <<
> 
>  As a rule, people die of suffocation 3 minutes after they are buried.
> If they happen to be buried adjacent to a rare pocket of air, they will last
> up to a couple of
> days, according to the rescue teams' experience in earthquake
> striken sites.
> 
> What is more important , you can not move anything , if you are buried
> even with only a couple of feet of earth over your head.
> 
> Next time you are on the beach , try burying yourself LYING in the sand
> with only your head sticking out and try to move your limps.
> 
> It is just another holocau$t myth.
> 
> Then immagine yourself buried in a pit with a couple of dead bodies over
> you, and wringling to signal the nazis above. 

You forget that after a body dies, the process of decay begins. If the
body is not chilled, noxious gasses will begin to be generated within a
few hours of death, and the belly as well as the limbs will begin to
swell. Movement detected on the surface of the ground directly above a
fresh mass grave would be far more likely due to the processes connected
with the onset of decay than to the chance survivor in an air pocket
struggling to get out.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:06 EST 2005
Article: 1045087 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Russian Agents Posing as Jewish People
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:35:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116921325.739482.193890@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
lorad474@cs.com wrote:


> 
> > Are you implying that discussion of the Holocaust, including
> revisionistic
> > interpretations, is of no relevance to SCB?
> 
> No implication; merely statement:

Are you *stating* that discussion of the Holocaust, including
revisionistic interpretations, is of no relevance to SCB?

> We don't need your slap-happy, lip-smacking, fantastical
> interpretations of anything posted to SCB. Especially your barely
> concealed eager fantasies regarding the killing of people.

I was describing a technique, not constructing a fantasy. If you read it,
it must gotten you off. What does that tell us about you, nejêga?

> > > > The people to be gassed
> > > are
> > > > not being punished, rather they are being eliminated as useless
> > > eaters,
> > >
> > > Why are you using Kissinger's terminology?
> >
> > The terminology was used by the Nazis during the 1930s to refer to
> > candidates for euthansia.
> 
> No. Much more famously and recently, the term was used by Kissinger
> just a few years ago.
> Look it up.

Kissinger lived in Germany during the 1930s, wo he might have picked it up
there. I did not have Kissinger in mind when using the term, but rather
the T-4 euthasia program, see 
http://www.regent.edu/admin/ctl/uselesseaters/  for details.

As to Kissinger using the phrase, see http://www.atsnn.com/story/116457.html:


One of the more graphic depopulation slogans is "useless eaters," a phrase
attributed to Kissinger but most likely originating from the early
Eugenics Movement. Used with increasing regularity over the past four
years, 'useless eaters' is now an accepted part of the English language,
as are its assumptions. In a nutshell, useless eaters are just that -
unnecessary, unwanted, unwelcome - designated targets for hate and
disenfranchisement, if not outright extermination. 


> 
> > > Is there some symbolism intended?
> >
> > What's you point?
> 
> The point is.. are you engaging in some ritualistic mantra regarding
> the denigration of people for some covert philosophical misanthropy?
> 
> > > Face it hole-man.. the way you meticulously describe the act of
> killing
> > > people - using your lugubriously fantasized embellishments...
> >
> > No. What is happening is that I am currently translating a book about
> the
> > Holocaust from Finnish into English. The chapter I am working on now
> is
> > called "Mit=E4 Baltiassa tapahtui?" - "What happened in the Baltics?"
> 
> Oh no! Yet more russian scripted bulllcrap.

No. It is written by the well-known, more right than left-wing Finnish
historian, Hannu Rautkallio. Right now I am translating a part dealing
with the American government's extension of protection to Latvian war
criminal Boleslavs Maikovskis, the butcher of Audrin.

Source: http://timelines.ws/countries/LATVIA.HTML


1941  Apr 18, In the village of Audrini, Latvia, Boleslavs Maikovskis,
chief of police for the second precinct of Rezekne, ordered the arrest of
all the 200-300 people in the village after Soviet partisans shot and
killed several policemen. He also ordered every house to be burned down.
200 villagers were then executed, but he claimed to have nothing to do
with the slaughter. He was charged with mass murder in Germany and his
trial began in 1988 but in Feb 1994 the court ruled that he was too frail
to continue. 
(SFC, 5/8/96, p.C-2) 


> If anyone is a "useless eater" - it is you with your NKVD editions.
> Eat your own crap.
> 
> Get lost, you creep.

Testy today, aren't we? Now, take your medication, that's a good boy.

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:06 EST 2005
Article: 1045153 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ground moved for three days at Riga Massacre
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:02:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
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References:   
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In article , "Szaki"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2405050946280001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> 
> >>>They took tractors and ran over the graves in order to squeeze out the 
> >>>last breath.<<
> So what's the tractor is good for -according to eyewitnes?

The eyewitnesses interpreted what they saw through the filter of their own
perception and understanding. The fact of the matter, though, is that body
parts swell and gas begins to be given off starting a few hours after
death. Rigor mortis also causes dead bodies to move. The eyewitnesses were
not necessarily aware of these unpleasant facts about what happens after
death, but this is at least a partial explanation.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:07 EST 2005
Article: 1045192 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!207.217.77.43.MISMATCH!elnk-pas-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:28:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References:  <1116837140.978435.52610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  <4292fd8a$0$256$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
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In article
<4292fd8a$0$256$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2305051218250001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> 
> >
> > Anne's, father, Otto, survived. Her mother died of unspecified causes.
> > Anne and Margot died of typhus a few weeks before the war ended. The other
> > four people in hiding with the Frank family died of various causes, at
> > least one being gassed and another pushed beyond the limits of human
> > endurance by a death march (for details, see
> > http://www.geocities.com/afdiary/after.htm).
> 
> Isn't he the prick who "edited" her diary?

Manuscripts are routinely edited before publication, so there is
absolutely nothing strange about Anne Frank's father having assumed this
task.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:07 EST 2005
Article: 1045194 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:11:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 103
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References:  <1116837140.978435.52610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  <1193ug2ed8j7v2f@corp.supernews.com> <4292ff27$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
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In article
<4292ff27$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:



> Professor holman attempts to do that which so many academics do so well. 
> That is to baffle the "plebs" with bullshit and to belittle anyone who does 
> not have a barrage of letters after their names.

While I cannot claim never to have engaged in such behavior ;-) , I raise
an objection here. 

My point was a valid one. Faurisson, Emil, Leuchter, and many others have
been working on the totally unjustified assumption that allegations of
gassing at Auschwitz and other German gas chambers are suspect because
nobody has been able to find a "real" gas chamber. By "real" gas chamber
they mean the kind of high-tech contraption used at some American penal
institutions to execute convicted criminals [cf.
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1999-10-31/chamber1.jpg].

My counter-argument is that nothing this elaborate is needed if your aim
is simply to kill people. Indeed, I support my contention that building a
gigantic and necessarily overt version of a device of the type pictured
would be the worst possible strategy for killing people in batches
numbering more than 1,000. Given a situation where the number of people to
be gassed outnumbers the number of personnel implementing the gassing by
as many as two orders of magnitude, the only feasible strategy is to
construct a covert gas chamber that looks like anything but a gas chamber.

Any policeman or fireman knows that thousands of people are killed every
year, either accidently or by their own hands, in perfectly normal
structures in which the ambient air has been poisoned by the introduction
of a lethal agent, usually carbon monoxide. The concentration need not be
far in excess of the lethal threshold, but the consequences will be fatal
to whomever happens to be in the room.

A person desiring to design a gas chamber in which mass murders could be
committed would be better advised to use a fatal gassing accident rather
than an American excution gas chamber as a model. All the more so if he
knows that what he is doing is a criminal act and would thus like to
conceal any evidence of criminal intent. Although the Dubrovka Theater
gassing was an accident, it demonstrates how easy it is to convert, in
this case inwittingly, a perfectly normal structure into a death trap in
which the people inside have no chance of escaping the effects of the
poisonous agent introduced to the ambient air, and how easy it is to
dispell the gas and remove the victims afterwards.

There is nothing academic about this other than understanding that the
term "gas chamber" in its most basic sense means any enclosure, the
content of the ambient air in which can be manipulated. A poorly
ventilated living room in which a group of people succumb to the carbon
monoxide given off by their fireplace is as much a gas chamber as the
high-tech contraption with all of its bells and whistles in the picture
referred to above. The key to designing a covert mass-execution gas
chamber is thus to study fatal gassing accidents and learn to replicate
them.

> What he fails to understand is, a lot of us have probably been through at 
> least one university experience, feeling little but pity for the poor fools 
> who lecture, for their poor understanding of the real world.

My description of a minimalist gas chamber is based upon real world
experience; there was a fatal gassing accident here in Finland a few
winters ago when a group of teenagers died at a country cottage because
they did not know how to tend the fireplace properly. From a purely
functional standpoint the living room in which they lost consciousness and
died was a gas chamber, since they were killed by a fateful change in the
content of the ambient air brought about by their own incompetent actions.
 
> Adademics have, on the main, spent their entire lives, since infancy, in or 
> around learning institutions, have never held a position outside those 
> institutions, yet have the audacity to lecture the world on what should be.

Academicians are also better than non-academic at recognizing patterns and
recognizing specious arguments. That's why it is so easy to see how
foolish it is to deny the presence of gas chambers just because nothing
corresponding to an American high-tech penal gas chamber can be found. I'm
not going to bother looking the precise wording up right now, but one of
the "gems" in the Leuchter Report is his explanation of why carbon
monoxide is unsuitable as an execution gas. If people were locked into a
hermetically sealed room into which carbon monoxide was pumped, he argues
(evidently with a straight face), they would die of suffocation before the
carbon monoxide could kill them. Another gem is his claim that the traces
of cyanide found in 14 of his 31 samples were the result of routine
fumigations, even though he claimed that the same rooms could not be used
to kill people because that would poison the entire camp and its water
supply and possibly cause an explosion. He evidently forgot that
fumigation requires far more cyanide maintained over a far longer period
than killing people with cyanide does, and is thus a far more dangerous
procedure.

> As a friend very succintly put it to me - They've got more degrees than a 
> thermometer, but they're too stupid to wind a watch.

In this case I am talking about very simple matters: how to design a mass
execution gas chamber that would not cause the people to fear for their
lives  when they are requested to enter it, and how a charlatan can make
statements that people who are not trained to think logically will accept
as reasonable.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:07 EST 2005
Article: 1045196 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Serious question for historians, revisionists and anti-revisionists
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:32:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 65
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In article <42933A5F.6070502@kaioe.com>, Zulu  wrote:


> 
> You forget that after the liberation of Dachau (which Eisenhower 
> visited), the propaganda sprayed that they were gas chambers there and 
> into other camps in Germany. A lot of eyewitnesses confirmed this. This 
> hoax was maintained until 1960 when Dr. Martin Broszat published his 
> work in which he proved that there weren't any gas chambers at camps on 
> German territory..

Broszat is easily proven to be wrong. One example will suffice. From 1939
until 1945 Auschwitz was in Germany. The Wartheland, where it was located,
had been annexed from Poland.

Gas chambers were also at Stutthof and Mauthausen, also in territory
annexed by the Reich. Neuengamme, Nordhausen, Sachsenhausen also had gas
chambers and they were located on German soil, as was Ravensbrück where a
gas chamber was erected a few months before the end of the war. Finally,
all six euthansia centers, Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar,
Hartheim Castle, and Sonnenstein had gas chambers. Within the framework of
the 14 f 13 euthansia program their gas chambers were used to exterminate
exhausted or unruly forced laborers from camps that lacked gas chambers
themselves.

 > The only reason that this hoax remains on air today is (not to mention 
> Holocauste industry power) that the camps under Soviet control weren't 
> investigated freely and related documents weren't open to searchers.

How was Natzweiler, a camp with a gas chamber located in France, under
Soviet control?

> We hope it won't last very much time to know the really "truth" from now.
> 
> What other reason to explain that geographical discrimination of "gas 
> chambers" installation?



The jury is still out concerning the Dachau gas chamber. It was evidently
never used systematically for exteminations, but may have been used for a
few experiments.

The real truth, though, is that this claim that there were no gas chambers
on German soil is easily debunked. All six of the euthanasia centers were
on German soil by any criterion, as were Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen,
Neuengamme, and Nordhausen. Auschwitz-Stammlager, Auschwitz-Birkenau,
Stutthof, and Mauthausen were all within the boundaries of the Reich when
they had functioning gas chambers.

What Broszak, Wiesenthal, and others who have made statements to this
effect have wanted to say was that there were no dedicated extermination
centers equipped with gas chambers on German soil. That is essentially
true, since all four of them, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka had
been specifically built in obscure partds of Poland. On the other hand,
Auschwitz was a multifunctional camp at which exterminations by gassing
were carried out, and Jews from western Hungary were being systematically
gassed at Mauthausen during 1944. Whether the six euthasia centers are to
be regarded as extermination centers or not is a matter of taste. From the
standpoint of the tens of thousands of victims who were gassed there
within the framework of the T-4 and 14 f 13 extermination programs, they
certainly were.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:08 EST 2005
Article: 1045241 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:24:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 106
Message-ID: 
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In article
<4292ff27$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:



> Professor holman attempts to do that which so many academics do so well. 
> That is to baffle the "plebs" with bullshit and to belittle anyone who does 
> not have a barrage of letters after their names.

While I cannot claim never to have engaged in such behavior ;-) , I raise
an objection here. 

My point was a valid one. Faurisson, Leuchter, Emil here, and many others
have been working on the totally unjustified assumption that allegations
of gassing at Auschwitz and other German gas chambers are suspect because
nobody has been able to find a "real" gas chamber. By "real" gas chamber
they mean the kind of high-tech contraption used at some American penal
institutions to execute convicted criminals [cf.
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1999-10-31/chamber1.jpg].

My counter-argument is that nothing this elaborate is needed if your aim
is simply to kill people. Indeed, I support my contention that building a
gigantic and necessarily overt version of a device of the type pictured
would be the worst possible strategy for killing people in batches
numbering more than 1,000. Given a situation where the number of people to
be gassed outnumbers the personnel implementing the gassing by as many as
two orders of magnitude, the only feasible strategy is to construct a
covert gas chamber that looks like anything but a gas chamber.

Any policeman or fireman knows that thousands of people are killed every
year, either accidently or by their own hands, in perfectly normal
structures in which the ambient air has been poisoned by the introduction
of a lethal agent, usually carbon monoxide. The concentration need not be
far in excess of the lethal threshold, but the consequences will be fatal
to whomever happens to be in the room.

A person desiring to design a gas chamber in which mass murders could be
committed would be better advised to use a fatal gassing accident rather
than an American excution gas chamber as a model. All the more so if he
knows that what he is doing is a criminal act and would thus like to
conceal any evidence of criminal intent. Although the Dubrovka Theater
gassing was an accident, it demonstrates how easy it is to convert, in
this case inwittingly, a perfectly normal structure into a death trap in
which the people inside have no chance of escaping the effects of the
poisonous agent introduced to the ambient air, as well as how easy it is
to dispell the gas and remove the victims afterwards.

There is nothing academic about this other than understanding that the
term "gas chamber" in its most basic sense means any enclosure, the
content of the ambient air in which can be manipulated. A poorly
ventilated living room in which a group of people succumb to the carbon
monoxide given off by their fireplace is as much a gas chamber as the
high-tech contraption with all of its bells and whistles in the picture
referred to above. The key to designing a covert mass-execution gas
chamber is thus to study fatal gassing accidents and learn to replicate
them.

> What he fails to understand is, a lot of us have probably been through at 
> least one university experience, feeling little but pity for the poor fools 
> who lecture, for their poor understanding of the real world.

My description of a minimalist gas chamber is based upon real world
experience; there was a fatal gassing accident here in Finland a few
winters ago when a group of teenagers died at a country cottage because
they did not know how to tend the fireplace properly. From a purely
functional standpoint the living room in which they lost consciousness and
died was a gas chamber, since they were killed by a fateful change in the
content of the ambient air brought about by their own incompetent actions.
 
> Adademics have, on the main, spent their entire lives, since infancy, in or 
> around learning institutions, have never held a position outside those 
> institutions, yet have the audacity to lecture the world on what should be.

Academicians are also better than non-academics at recognizing patterns
and specious arguments. That's why it is so easy for a person with an
academic background to see how foolish it is to deny the presence of gas
chambers just because nothing corresponding to an American high-tech penal
gas chamber can be found. I'm not going to bother looking the precise
wording up right now, but one of the "gems" in the Leuchter Report is his
explanation of why carbon monoxide is unsuitable as an execution gas. If
people were locked into a hermetically sealed room into which carbon
monoxide was pumped, he argues (evidently with a straight face), they
would die of suffocation before the carbon monoxide could kill them, not
realizing that he has described a gas chamber scenario. Another gem is his
claim that the traces of cyanide found in 14 of his 31 samples were the
result of routine fumigations, even though he claimed that the same rooms
could not be used to kill people because that would poison the entire camp
and its water supply and possibly cause an explosion. He evidently forgot
that fumigation requires far more cyanide maintained over a far longer
period than killing people with cyanide does, and is thus a far more
dangerous procedure, even though there is not evidence of a fumigation at
Auschwitz ever having poisoned the camp or its water supply, or caused an
explosion.

> As a friend very succintly put it to me - They've got more degrees than a 
> thermometer, but they're too stupid to wind a watch.

In this case I am talking about very simple matters: how to design a mass
execution gas chamber that would not cause the people to fear for their
lives  when they are requested to enter it, and how a charlatan can make
statements that people who are not trained to think logically will accept
as reasonable.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:08 EST 2005
Article: 1045307 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:05:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 210
Message-ID: 
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In article <1196u253fmvqhe7@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote:
> >
> > No. What I wrote was:
> >
> > "A functional gas chamber is any enclosure where people can be trapped
> long
> > enough for a lethal agent introduced to the ambient air to kill them."
> >
> 
> Sorry for the missing periods. But your full sentence does not make sense
> either. A functional gas chamber does also require the equipment to remove
> the lethal gas safely and provide the necessary safety precautions for the
> executioners and their assistants.

Zyklon-B was specifically designed to make it possible to use cyanide gas
to disinfect enclosures such as rooms, apartments houses, ships, and
railway cars that lacked such equipment. You are arguing that a place that
lacks such features can be fumigated with Zyklon-B, but cannot be used to
kill people using Zyklon-B, even though fumigation is a far more hazardous
and difficult procedure than killing people.


> >
> > That is not what I claimed. I said that it has the attributes necessary
> > for it to be capable of *functioning* as a gas chamber. The Nazis were not
> > going to construct some engineering marvel that looked like a penal gas
> > chamber to the people lining up to enter it, or to the people examining
> > architectural plans after the war for signs of criminal intent.
> 
> And how would you know this? It seems to me that to you the existence of
> these homicidal gas chambers is "offenkundig" (evident) and then you spin
> your yarn around your preconception.  

Perpetrators, Sonderkommando members, eye-witnesses, architectural
diagrams, orders for gas tight doors, forensic tests for cyanide residue
are all consistent with the claims made by the people who were there that
there were gas chambers at Auschwitz-Stammlager, Auschwitz-Birkenau, and
elsewhere.

> That is fine. But as a history
> researcher it may be advisable to drop any biases. History should be about
> truth, not about anti-German hate propaganda.

Agreed. If all the evidence is consistent with claims that there were gas
chambers, if no evidence contradicts this eveidence, then there is reason
to conclude that there were gas chambers. And there is nothing anti-German
about coming to this conclusion. Killing people by gassing them is a far
more humane method of exterminating them than using the Jeckeln
*Sardinenpackung* method, or using firebombing or nuclear weapons. German
was a world leader in the use of gasses for various purposes during the
1930s. It would be indeed surprising if they had not found ways to use gas
to deal with people that their ideology considered to be enemies of the
state by virtue of their blood.

> 
> >The rooms
> > were obviously designed and constructed to look like morgues, but they
> > were capable of being used as gas chambers, something that historical,
> > testimonial, architectural, and forensic evidence indicates that they
> > were.
> >
> That is just a lot of hot air.  There is neither "historical, testimonial,
> architectural nor forensic evidence" indicating the existence of homicidal
> gas chambers in Birkenau. But feel free to elaborate on these points.

The historical evidence includes records of hundreds of thousands of
people deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau, district by district, town by town,
community by community, block by block, and never seen or heard from
again.

The testimonial evidence includes the expert witness testimony followed by
a cross examination given by Rudolf Hoess at the trial of RSHA head Ernst
Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg. Other testimony about gas chambers was given
by former Auschwitz inmates at the trial of Rudlf Hoess in Cracow. At
other Auschwitz trials the testimony of inmates resulted in Auschwitz
physician Hans Münch being acquitted at the 1947 Auschwitz trial in
Cracow. Sonderkommando member Henryk Tauber also delivered a detailed
deposition about the duties he was forced to perform as Auschwitz gas
chambers.

The architectural evidence has been treated in minute detail by Jan van
Pelt and Jean-Claude Pressac. It includes the analysis of last-minute
changes in construction diagrams for "morgues" at Auschwitz-Birkenau that
show a body shoot being replaced by a spiral staircase to the morgue, as
well as an undressing room in the anteroom to the morgue. The well-known
forensic evidence shows cyanide residues in the ventilation systems as
well as on the ruins of the walls and floors of structures that other
evidence indicates were gas chambers.
 
> > > He is still
> > > searching for the alleged Zyklon-B insertion holes in the concrete
> ceiling
> > > of the morgue.
> >
> > Did the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow have lethal gas insertion holes? Does a
> > room that is going to be fumigated with Zyklon-B? Getting the gas into the
> > room is the easy part, far more difficult is the task of getting the
> > intended victims to enter it.
> >
> 
> Both survivor and perpetrator eyewitnesses testified, that the Zyklon-B
> pellets were inserted into the morgue through holes in the ceiling. Is this
> not true anymore? These holes seem to have disappeared.

The ruins of only ceiling, Krema II, have survived. The other three
complexes at Auschwitz-Birkenau survive only as foundations. As far as I
know, the holes in the ruins of the roof at Krema II are clearly visible.

>
> > Even
> > most revisionists do not deny that both Leuchter and the Cracow group
> > found cyanide residues on the walls of most of the places alleged to have
> > been gas chambers, or that Leuchter attributes this to the places having
> > been routinely fumigated with cyanide. This would mean that, insertion
> > holes or not, lethal concentrations of cyanide were generated and then
> > dispersed in the rooms concerned, and that any people that happened to be
> > in them at the time would have been killed. The revisionist "No holes, no
> > Holocaust!" slogan is one of the stupidest ones I have ever heard.
> >
> 
> Not so fast, doctor!
> Do I understand you correctly that in your opinion the lethal gas was
> introduced into the morgues as described in the Directives for builings
> NI-9912? Well, that is certainly a new twist to the story: The morgue filled
> with a thousand or more naked people, and an SS-man with a gas mask on
> entering in order to distribute the Zyklon-B pellets evenly on the floor.
> Is that what your history research found and what you believe? That is
> amazing!

>From what I have seen of the architectural diagrams, Kremas II and III
used a different system than Kremas IV and V. The two sets of buildings
were mirror images of one another, but Kremas II and III depended more on
technology, while Kremas IV and V were technoligically minimalist and used
cross ventilation. The Zyklon B pellets were introduced in wire induction
structures in Kremas II and III, and through an external flue in Kremas IV
and V. When killing lice the pellets have to be distributed evenly on the
floor, but when killing people far lower concentrations are needed. We
should also remember what Fred Leuchter wrote about the "unsuitability" of
carbon monoxide as an execution gas: if people are locked into a
hermetically sealed room, they are likely to suffocate before the lethal
agent can kill them. To this I might add, if they realize that they are
being gassed, they will panic and many will be crushed in the ensuing
chaos. Comsiderations like this do not rwally matter if the primary
objective is just to have them dead.
 
> > > Interesting here is maybe an article by Paul Eisen of the Israel Shamir
> > > group: "The Holocaust Wars"
> > > http://www.israelshamir.net/friends/Contributor13.htm :
> > > [quote]He then told his audience what Zionists do fear: They fear the
> > > weapons of those who have nothing left to lose - the poor and the weak.
> > > They fear the stones and suicide bombers of the Palestinian Intifada -
> and
> > > they fear the weapons of that other intifada - the words of the
> > > revisionists.
> >
> > If the revisionists can offer nothing better than Faurisson's "No holes,
> > no Holocaust!", Leuchter's botched report, and David Irving's proven lies
> > and distortions, true historians have nothing to be concerned about.
> >
> 
> Well, apparently the "true historians" as you call them are quite worried
> and concerned. Their weapons are at present repression, taboos and laws
> which make any criticism of the Holocaust narrative punishable by law with
> prison terms of up to 5 years.

 It is unfortunate but evidently necessary in some countries. No country
has absolute and total freedom of speech. In the US threatening to
assassinate the president in your e-mail or joking about hijacking an
airplane at an airport can get you into as much hot water as publicly
denying the Holocaust in Germany or France.

> > > Zionists truly fear the weapons of the poor (children's stones, their
> > > slingshots like that of David against the giant Goliath, the suicide
> > > attacks) and all that may endanger persons and business; they fear a
> > > demeaning of their brand image.  But they are above all apprehensive of
> "the
> > > poor man's atomic bomb", that is, the disintegration, by historical
> > > revisionism, of the lie of the gas chambers,
> >
> > It is hardly a lie. There is abundant evidence, including almost intact
> > gas chambers at Majdanek, Mauthausen, and Bernburg, that the Nazis killed
> > people in gas chambers within the framework of the T-4 euthanasia program
> > (Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, Sonnenstein), as
> > well as at the camps and extermination facilities in occupied Poland
> > (Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka; Majdanek), the Reich
> > (Auschwitz-Stammlager, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Mauthausen, Stutthof,
> > Neuengamme, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen), and France (Natzweiler), that the
> > Nazis were willing and able to use poison gas to eliminate individuals
> > that they regarded as "useless mouths to feed" or threats to Reich
> > security. There is far too much evidence for the use of different kinds of
> > gas chambers by the Nazis to kill people for various reasons for all of it
> > to be merely dismissed as "lies".
> >
> You are attempting to widen the scope of the present discussion on Birkenau
> gas chambers, probably in an attempt to dilute and make it difficult to
> debate. Don't do this! This is an often practiced method by the Holocaust
> .defenders.
>  Lets stay with the Birkenau gas chambers for a while.  One thing at a time.

Birkenau were just one of many places where there is evidence of various
kinds, including relatively intact gas chambers at Auschwitz-Stammlager,
Bernburg, Majdanek, and Mauthausen, that mass gassings were a matter of
state policy in Nazi Germany. The Birkenau gas chambers cannot rally be
understood removed from this context.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:09 EST 2005
Article: 1045496 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Jews hide conveniently behind Russia
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:58:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1196unrhd3pub52@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-2405050756510001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...


> >
> > Now that we are on it, would you be kind enough to tell my why you object
> > so strenuously to my using the Dubrovka theater accident as a model for
> > the Auschwitz gas chambers?
> >
> 
> Sure. You are attempting to  compare apples with pears:
> 1. As far as I know, the gas used in Dubrovka was readily bottled, which
> could instantly be released. While the HCN gas in the alleged Birkenau gas
> chamber had to gradually escape from its carrier. Only 10% were released
> after 10 minutes. Complete discharge took over 1½ hrs.
> http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/Image19.gif

Not an issue. Given that Zyklon-B was designed to generate concentration
of cyanide sufficient to kill lice - 10,000 to 15,000 ppm - a 10%
discharge would have produced a concentration of cyanide far in excess of
what is needed to kill people. 

> 2. The gas in Dubrovka was released into the forced air circulation system
> of the theater, which resulted in a quick distribution of the gas. Not so in
> Birkenau. There the gas pellets were allegedly dropped into the morgue
> through some holes which apparently disappeared, although one of the alleged
> murder weapons, morgue 1 of Krema II, is still there for inspection and
> locating of the holes.

As to the holes at Krema II, see
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic11-07-04.html, particularly
http://www.skeptic.com/images/e41hole.jpg. The issue of the holes is of
secondary importance since cyanide residues have been found on the walls
of the former gas chamber of Krema II, thus indicating that cyanide was
introduced by some means or another.
> 
> > If you want to commit a crime and leave as little evidence of criminal
> > intent behind as possible, the best strategy would be to study accidents
> > that produce the same result as you would like your crime to produce and
> > then attempt to replicate such an accident.
> 
> If I were to  commit a homicidal gassing of a million people, I would
> certainly not select for this a site in the center of a huge industrial
> complex, with hundreds of construction workers coming and going daily,
> discharging potential eyewitnesses after they terminated their prison term,
> and leave any survivors behind.

How many inmates were dischqarged from Auschwitz? And if you are going to
commit a crime covertly, why not select an improbable place to stage it.
For much of Auschwitz's existence, extermination was a sideline, with only
two or three trainfuls of deportees arriving per week. Extermination
actions got lost in the woodwork.

> > Although I have never heard of
> > an indoor gassing accident that produced as many casualties as the Moscow
> > tragedy did, the Nazis certainly had access to investigations of lethal
> > mass-gassing accidents in addition to having the ability to simulate them.
> >
> 
> They did? Which ones? 

Gassing accidents and suicides committed with gas are relatively common.
Anybody with access to police archives can retrieve detailed information
about the gassing accidents that have taken place in a particular
jurisdiction.

> The only known gas chambers at that time were US
> execution chambers. And the alleged Birkenau chambers had no similarity.

Nor should they have had, given their totally different function.

> > At an execution in a penal establishment the victim is far outnumbered by
> > the staff and has no hope of using violence to escape his fate. Since he
> > is being punished for his crimes by having his life extinguished, the gas
> > chamber has to look like an instrument of retribution, It is, after all,
> > the last thing that the prisoner will have a memory of.
> 
> I always did wonder what the memory of a deseased would be like.
> 
> > At a concentration
> > camp, the considerations are quite different. The people to be gassed are
> > not being punished, rather they are being eliminated as useless eaters,
> > people who are of more value to the powers that be dead than alive.
> 
> That is what the Holocaust establishment attempts to make the world believe

That is also what one wouild conclude using common sense. German was in an
all-fronts war, it had shortages of fuel, food, and manpower. One of its
stated goals was to capture territory from peoples regarded as inferior or
security threats, ethnically cleanse it, and then open at as new living
space - Lebensraum - for German colonization. Exploiting representative of
those people regarded as inferior or security threats by virtue of birth
for their manpower and skills, and killing those who were of no economic
value, is a ruthless but completely logical policy, all the more so if you
can get some *Schadenfreude* out of it by forcing your victims to
participate in the killing of their own families, friends, and relatives.
 
> > There
> > are also far more of them than there are personnel implementing the
> > gassing. The only way to maintain order is to keep the people to be gassed
> > unaware of their fate until they are securely locked inside the gassing
> > facility and begin to notice the faint odor of almonds in the ambient air.
> 
> Paul Eisen:
> [quote]The first reports of the mass slaughter of Jews by the Germans were
> propagated in the spring of 1942 by Jewish and Zionist agencies and
> published in the Jewish press.  

Your claim is demonstrably false. Reports of the mass slaughter of Jews
appeared in the foreign press much earlier. The pogrom at Kaunas in early
July, 1941, the burning of the Great Choral Synagogue with hundreds of
refugees trapped inside in central Riga on July 4, 1941, as well as the
Rumbula massacre on November 30 and December 8, 1941, were all reported in
the foreign press and in news broadcasts at the time.

> These entirely uncorroborated reports
> received immediate and unmatched credibility by being broadcast (on one
> occasion in Yiddish) back into Poland by the BBC[/quote]

Since gassing started at Chelmno in Decemmber, 1941, and, after some
experiments on Soviet POWs during the autumn of 1941, at Auschwitz in late
January, 1942, the reports were hardly rumors.

> With other words, the gassing of people was a well known hearsay rumored
> secret in the Birkenau camp.  This tale of keeping people unaware of the
> gassing with the help of false shower heads must therefore be considered as
> nonsense.

It was strictly forbidden to listen to foreign boradcasts, so the
relatively few people who took the risk would have been the prime sources
of any information which, as it spread, would have become embellished and
distorted and attained the status of rumors. One would suspect that women
with infants, children, and the elderly and infirm, the groups primarily
targeted for gassing, would have been among the least likely to be aware
of the rumors.

> 
> > Then some will scream and go into a panic, which, of course, will make
> > them breathe harder and thus inhale even more of the lethal gas. If the gas
> > is really fast acting, two or three breaths will induce unconsciousness,
> > with death quickly following.
> >
> > Why are you unable to accept that a gas chamber working on this principle
> > would be a better solution than one with fancy technology that would make
> > it look like a gas chamber or at least something threatening? If you
> > accept that replicating a gassing accident was all that the Nazis needed
> > to be able to do in order to kill large numbers of people, you will see
> > that the morgues under the crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau were eminently
> > suited to serve as functional gas chambers.
> >
> 
> You are missing the fact, that the homicidal gassing tale as we know it is
> based on witness testimonies, survivors and perpetrators, who alleged
> ridiculous gassing times, out gassing times and ventilation times, with the
> gas pellets inserted through openings which do not exist.
> Yes, I am unable to accept such nonsense. You got that right.

People who were there had more important things to do than measure the
precise outgassing and ventilation times. The existence of cyanide
residues on the walls demonstrates that the structures in question were
exposed to lethal concentrations of cyanide. That, not quibbling over the
precise outgassing times or the method used to introduce and expell the
gas, is the "smoking gun".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:09 EST 2005
Article: 1045555 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:26:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article
<42942898$0$273$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2405052024370001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
 
> You are entirely at liberty to believe what you will Eugene, but by the same 
> token, you must allow there are counter arguments to your theories.

Of course there are counterarguments, but they stand on legs of sand.

1. Fred Leuchter says that the structures that he examined at Auschwitz
could not have been used to gas people because they lack the attributes of
an American execution gas chamber. The cyanide traces on the wall are, in
his opinion, the result of "routine fumigations". He also says that carbon
monoxide is an unsuitable execution gas because people locked up in a
hermetically sealed room in which they were forced to breathe it would
suffocate before the gas could kill them. He, the self-appointed engineer,
examined the gas chambers at Majdanek and noticed the heavy blue staining
all over. He did not analyze it or venture an explanation for its
presence, but stated that it was his "best engineering opinion" that the
structures in question could have been used to gas people because they do
not have the structural attributes of American execution gas chambers.

2. Each and every bit of the independent testimonial, historical,
architectural, and forensic evidence that gas chambers existed at
Auschwitz-Stammlager, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Bernburg, Brandenburg,
Chelmno, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, Majdanek, Mauthausen, Natzweiler,
Neuengamme, Nordhausen, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Sobibor, Sonnenstein,
Stutthof, and Ravensbrück has to be dismissed as forgeries or
mistranslations, or elicited by perpetrators by torture, from victims for
revenge, or the results of incompetent science.

3. Abundant documentary evidence that mass-execution gas chambers were
first developed within the framework of the T4 euthansia program, and then
handed over to the people responsible for implementing Aktion Reinhardt
has to be ignored or declared forged or otherwise invalid.

4. Still more evidence that the Nazis began to use mass gassing at the end
of 1941 because of the logistical and political problems connected with
implementing public pogroms and mass murders such as the ones carried out
at Kaunas, Kiev, Odessa, Daugavpils, Rîga, Rumbula, Liepâja and numerous
other sites along the eastern front between the summer and early winter of
1941 has to be expalined away, often by claiming that there is no hard
eveidence that the incidents in question ever even took place, despite the
existence of photographs, films, and other historical evidence.

5. Ultimately, the issue of whether the Nazis even treated the Jews worse
than anyone else is raised. One contributor to this forum claims that the
*Sonderbehandlung* - "special treatment" being accorded Jews on the
eastern front was a daily bottle of champagne and a diplomat's food
rations, this despite the fact that at post-war trials those who were in a
position to know testified that *Sonderbehandlung* was a code word for
execution by shooting.

I really do not see why such a big issue is made about the gas chambers.
The Dubrovka Theater tragedy in Moscow demonstrated for any skeptics how
easy it is to gas large numbers of people in a room that was not
constructed to be a gas chamber. Surely the Nazis, world leaders in the
use of poison gas, understood this. They also understood that they could
not continue to kill people in massive public shootings using the Jeckeln
*Sardinenpackung* methodology if they were to maintain the sanity of the
people assigned the task of shooting the unfortunates and win the sympathy
of the people whose countries they were "cleansing" of Jews, Gypsies, and
other alleged riff-raff.

> To paraphrase Voltaire, "I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend 
> to the death your right to say it." 

That's how it should be.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:10 EST 2005
Article: 1045765 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Russian Puppets Hiding In Mufti
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:10:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1116962993.249713.189490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
lorad474@cs.com wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > Corrected???? Hahahahahahahaha! See below.
> 
> No need to, I saw the original discussion...
> And you certainly lost almost all points of discussion.
> Don't be delusional.

No I didn't. Transom left because he realized that he was outgunned.
Anyone who claims that Persian is not Indo-European, but related to
Hungarian, or that the use of agglutination as a grammatical technique is
a criterion for determining linguistic relationship, is as risibly off the
wall as someone who would claim that Gothic is a Baltic language (cackle,
guffaw).
 
> > > > Let me also remind you that the Hungarian showed his
> > > > ignorance of linguistics by stating that he did not regard Persian or
> > > > Bulgarian as being related to English, a claim that aroused a few
> > > > well-earned guffaws from those who know better.
> > >
> > > I guffaw too - at you!
> > > In what alternate universe of yours do you imagine that Bulgarian is
> > > related to English in any meaningful way? Bulgarian was a Turkic
> > > language - not a Baltic-European one.
> >
> > But the originally Turkic speaking Bulgarians moved to the Balkans and
> > underwent a language shift to Slavic.
> 
> That is unprovable. It is far more likely that the original Turkic
> Bulgar invaders suffered an invasion of Slavic speakers and were
> displaced. The language shift being more in the nature of typical
> Slavic over-running invasions.

It is provable and known to everybody with an interest in the history of
the balkans. Bulgarian is a Slavic language, but the Bulgarians are
primarily the descendants of the originally Turkic-speaking Bolgars whose
former homeland was along the shores of the Volga. They moved southward,
abandoning their Turkic language for Slavic along the way. They had
arrived in what is now Bulgaria by the eighth century AD. For details, see
http://www.kroraina.com/p_bulgar/.
 
> > Modern Bulgarian is thus a Slavic
> > language and distantly but clearly related to English, as can be seen from
> > the numbers: edin, dva, tri, chetire, pet, shest, sedem, osem, devet,
> > deset.
> 
> Yes, good to see you make your correction; '*Modern* Bulgarian'.

Given that the Bulgars had already settled in what is now Bulgaria for at
least two centuries before St. Cyril and St. Methodius began to convert
them to Christianity and develop an alphabet for their language in the
10th century, so was Old Bulgarian, also known as Old Church Slavic
(Altbulgarisch oder Altkirchenslawisch).

> But its distance from English is still much greater than most other
> Baltic-european languages. (and it's 'odin' - not 'edin', you fool)

No it isn't. It's edin/edna/edno in Bulgarian (cf.
http://www.hf.uio.no/east/bulg/mat/gram/401carnu.html), odin/odna/odno in
Russian, nejêga. Whadda joik!

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:10 EST 2005
Article: 1045768 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:35:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
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In article <119ahb5puj6el7d@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:


> 
> We have been through most of this before and I don't think that it makes any
> sense anymore to go into it again. It is getting tiresome.
> But one thing I would like to bring up here:
> Why on earth does Eugene not want to fumigate the morgues, where obviously
> many corpses were in temporary hold for crremation and who died from
> infectious diseases?

What makes you think that I have anything in principle against fumigating
morgues, even if the lice in corpses whose earthly owners had died of
typhus would have died shortly after the demise of their hosts and
fumigation would be futile against disease-bearing anaerobic bacteria? My
point is that fumigation with Zyklon-B is a far more hazardous procedure
than killing people with Zyklon-B and thus properly includes it. If rooms
designated as morgues could be fumigated, then they could also be used as
places where the conditions obtaining in lethal gassing accidents could be
replicated, that is to say as functional gas chambers. If the cyanide
generated by Zykon-B could be maintained at the concentration and over the
time frame needed to fumigate, and then dissipated into the atmosphere
without constituting a hazard to the environment, then the same could be
done for the far lower concentrations of cyanide needed to kill people.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:10 EST 2005
Article: 1045805 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:29:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 42
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In article
<42959b4c$0$269$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2505051426490001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> > In article
> >
<42942898$0$273$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
> > "Ben Cramer"  wrote:
> >
> >> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> >> news:holman-2405052024370001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> >  >
> >>
> >> You are entirely at liberty to believe what you will Eugene, but by the 
> >> same
> >> token, you must allow there are counter arguments to your theories.
> >
> > Of course there are counterarguments, but they stand on legs of sand.
> 
> There you go again. Absolutely convinced that your argument is the one and 
> only.

If you are convinced that it is not, please demolish it. Specifically, why
should it be possible to use cyanide to fumigate a room but, as Leuchter
argues, impossible to use it to kill people trapped in the room?

> >> To paraphrase Voltaire, "I don't agree with what you say, but I will 
> >> defend
> >> to the death your right to say it."
> >
> > That's how it should be.
> 
> Well follow the edict.

I am. If you present an illogical argument publicly, you have to be ready
to see it challenged.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:11 EST 2005
Article: 1045807 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:45:55 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 48
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In article
<42959b9e$0$264$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Emil Müller"  wrote in message 
> news:119ahb5puj6el7d@corp.supernews.com...
> 
> >
> > We have been through most of this before and I don't think that it makes 
> > any
> > sense anymore to go into it again. It is getting tiresome.
> > But one thing I would like to bring up here:
> > Why on earth does Eugene not want to fumigate the morgues, where obviously
> > many corpses were in temporary hold for crremation and who died from
> > infectious diseases?
> >
> > em
> 
> Simply because it doesn't suit the shoah industry version of events. 

This has nothing to do with any "shoah industry" and everything to do with
logic. Nobody denies that traces of exposure to lethal concentrations of
cyanide have been detected at the structures of sites that other evidence
indicates were used as gas chambers. The deniers claim that these are the
result of fumigation, and argue that the rooms in question could not have
been used to kill people because that would constitute a hazard to the
environment. Nevertheless, fumigation requires far higher concentrations
of cyanide maintained over a far longer timeframe. Thus, a room that can
be fumigated using cyanide can certainly be used to kill people using
cyanide. Another issue is whether there would be any sense fumigating
corpses in storage waiting to be cremated, since any lice on them would
already be dead due to the lack of a living host and anaerobic bacteria
are not affected by fumigation.

Nobody participating in this forum has ever said that the argument given
above is flawed. They just say that you cannot compare killing lice with
cyanide with killing people with cyanide, but do not explain why. Emil has
said that you cannot compare a single gassing accident, such as the
Dubrovka theater tragedy, with systematic gassing, without explaining why.
My position remains unchanged: 1. the ability of a room and its
environment to withstand fumigations with cyanide properly includes their
ability to withstand mass-gassings of people using cyanide;
2. if you know the parameters that obtained during an accidental fatal
gassing accident, you can replicate them as often as you like to implement
mass-gassings of people.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:11 EST 2005
Article: 1045840 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Value of Testimony and Confessions
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:40:58 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23
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In article , Roger  wrote:

> In one age, called the Second Age by some,
>    (an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
>       someone claiming to be helge wrote
>          in message <42945bc5$1_7@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>: 
> 
> >well Eugene, you should stick with your own "standards" and perhaps try 
> >to explain the worldwide "Easter Bunny" conspiracy!
> >Are you saying that millions of people in many different countries [many 
> >of them innocent! children] did invent and the Easter Bunny ?!?
> >
> >The Easter Bunny is real - according to your own "standards".
> 
> Really?  You have a diary from the Easter Bunny, detailing having left
> all those eggs at the time it was done?

Neither are the activities of the Easter Bunny planned, implemented, and
financed by a large central bureaucracy that left behind a detailed set of
documents about the when, where, and how.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:11 EST 2005
Article: 1045848 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:28:55 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 123
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In article <8vfb91tugb4h9b12v8gkbqhcno6j25p5ha@4ax.com>, Mr Revision
 wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 11:35:18 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
> Holman) wrote:
> 
> >In article <119ahb5puj6el7d@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 
> >> We have been through most of this before and I don't think that it
makes any
> >> sense anymore to go into it again. It is getting tiresome.
> >> But one thing I would like to bring up here:
> >> Why on earth does Eugene not want to fumigate the morgues, where obviously
> >> many corpses were in temporary hold for crremation and who died from
> >> infectious diseases?
> >
> >What makes you think that I have anything in principle against fumigating
> >morgues, even if the lice in corpses whose earthly owners had died of
> >typhus would have died shortly after the demise of their hosts
> 
> Nits would stick where they were [pun intended] and the adult lice
> would hop away looking for new hosts.

The adult lice would have died no more than 48 hours after the death of
their hosts. Nits can survive longer, but in the absence of a host they
grow weaker (see http://www.safe2use.com/pests/lice/history.htm). If a
morgue were to be fumigated as a safeguard against lice and nits, this
would have to be done on a regular basis. Nevertheless, the traces of
cyanide found in the alleged gas chambers were smaller than those found in
the dedicated disinfection chambers, suggesting that either lower
concentrations were invoilved, or that the fumigations took place
infrequently, an illogical regime if their purpose is to prevent the lice
and nits from finding new hosts. 

> > and
> >fumigation would be futile against disease-bearing anaerobic bacteria?
> 
> That's why they had chlorine bleach.  Typhus was decimating the
> workers and the Germans worked very hard to solve the problem.

Nevertheless, fumigation would be a futile exercise to combat them.

> > My
> >point is that fumigation with Zyklon-B is a far more hazardous procedure
> >than killing people with Zyklon-B and thus properly includes it.
> 
> Fumigation is a safe procedure when done properly as per instructions.

It follows that gassing people would be an even safer procedure if the
instructions for fumigation were followed, since far less Zyklon-B would
be needed.

> Delousing chambers were left closed for one, two or three days to
> allow all the carrier to outgass and transfer to the cloth materials.
> 
> OTOH, the alleged HGC's were said to be opened after a few minutes
> and the vehemently outgassing product was tossed on the roof.
> This does not compute.

Hoess says that all noise in the chamber stopped after fifteen minutes,
and then they turned on the exhaust ventilators and opened the door
fifteen minutes later.

Cyanide dissipates rapidly in the open air, so tossing thestill
outgassing  Zyklon-B onto the roof is a realistic option,  provided the
proper precautions are taken.

> > If rooms
> >designated as morgues could be fumigated, then they could also be used as
> >places where the conditions obtaining in lethal gassing accidents could be
> >replicated, that is to say as functional gas chambers.
> 
> Don't forget the flash point of HCN. The only safe time to delouse the
> morgues would be when the ovens were shut down.

Not so. The flashpopint of HCN is 60,000 ppm. A proper fumigation used
concentrations between 10,000 and 15,000 ppm. A mass gassing would use
even lower concentrations, considering that people die within half an hour
if exposed to as little as 300 ppm of cyanide. It must also be borne in
mind that cyanide was not the only cvause of death. The people were
stuffed into a hermetically sealed room, and they panicked when they
realized what was happening to them. A relatively low concentration would
be needed to ensure that all the people in the chamber were dead by some
means or another, poisoned, asphyxiated, or crushed, within fifteen
minutes. The function of the gas chamber was not to kill them by cyanide,
its function was to ensure that they would be dead within a certain
timeframe.

> > If the cyanide
> >generated by Zykon-B could be maintained at the concentration and over the
> >time frame needed to fumigate, and then dissipated into the atmosphere
> >without constituting a hazard to the environment, then the same could be
> >done for the far lower concentrations of cyanide needed to kill people.
> >Regards,
> >Eugene Holman
> 
> What you fail to understand or ,more appropriately, choose to ignore
> is that opening the door after a few minutes will reveal a room full
> of gas. OTOH, after a day or two the gas has dissipated.

No. You fail to appreciate the point that I made above. You don't need to
use nearly as much Zyklon-B to kill people locked in a hermetically sealed
room as you need to conduct a proper fumigation. Although concentrations
of cyanide far in excess of 300 ppm were used, nothing approaching the
10,000 to 15,000 ppm needed for fumigation would have been required to get
the job done. Once again, the minimum amount needed to ensure that all the
people trapped inside would be dead within fifteen minutes, but that the
cyanide would be largely dissipated into the atmosphere once the oversized
exhaust fans were started, or, in Kremas IV and V, the windows were opened
for cross ventilation, could easily be calculated. The fact that the Nazis
decided to dispense with the ventilation and exhaust systems used in
Kremas II and III for a competely non-technical method of dispersing the
gas by cross ventilation is indicative of relatively low concentrations of
cyanide being used.

Killing people with the cyanide generated by Zyklon-B is a far simpler and
less hazardous procedure than killing lice.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:11 EST 2005
Article: 1045862 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:10:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 51
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In article <4295DC5E.9050607@gloglo.com>, Zulu  wrote:



> The Dachau gas chambers myth was debunked in 1960.
> 
> Auschwitz GC myth survives until now.
> 
> Dr. Martin Broszat, Institute of Contemporary History in Munich, Letter
> in Die Zeit, 19 August 1960, p. 16:
> 
> 
> "Weder in Dachau noch in Bergen-Belsen noch in Buchenwald sind Juden
> oder andere Häftlinge vergast worden. Die Gaskammer in Dachau wurde nie
> ganz fertiggestellt und 'in Betrieb' genommen."
> 
> English translation: "Neither in Dachau, nor in Bergen-Belsen, nor in
> Buchenwald, were Jews or other inmates gassed. The gas chamber in Dachau
> was never completed and put 'into operation.'."

Dr. Broszat avoids question of why there should be a gas chamber there in
the first place, even if never completed and put into operation. If the
Nazis were not gassing people, why should a clearly homicidal gas chamber
have been close to completion at Dachau when it was liberated?
 
> This is the historical truth that all serious historians have admitted.

Dr. Broszat has been known to make mistakes.


> 
> "The gas chamber, about 20 feet by 20 feet, bears all the
> characteristics of an ordinary communal shower room with about fifty
> shower sprays in the roof, cement ceiling and cement floor. But there is
> not the usual ventilation, and the sprays squirted poison gas. One
> noticed that the doors, as well as the small window, were rubber-lined
> and that there was a conveniently situated glass-covered peephole  to
> enable the controller to see when the gas could be turned off. From the
> lethal chamber a door leads to the crematorium. We inspected the
> elaborate controls and gas pipes leading into the chamber. Behind the
> crematorium there was an execution place for those who had to die by
> rifle fire; and there were ample signs that this place had been in
> frequent use." From a Report on Dachau Concentration Camp, signed by
> C.S. Coetzee and R. J. Montgomery who visited the camp on or about 7 May
> 1945.

So, do you trust Dr. Broszat, who has probably not there in 1945, or Mr.
Coetzee and Mr. Montgomery, who were there in 1945.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:12 EST 2005
Article: 1046064 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:52:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 237
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In article <119c1qifpq72d1c@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-2605051135180001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> > In article <119ahb5puj6el7d@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > >
> > > We have been through most of this before and I don't think that it makes
> any
> > > sense anymore to go into it again. It is getting tiresome.
> > > But one thing I would like to bring up here:
> > > Why on earth does Eugene not want to fumigate the morgues, where
> obviously
> > > many corpses were in temporary hold for crremation and who died from
> > > infectious diseases?
> >
> > What makes you think that I have anything in principle against fumigating
> > morgues, even if the lice in corpses whose earthly owners had died of
> > typhus would have died shortly after the demise of their hosts and
> > fumigation would be futile against disease-bearing anaerobic bacteria?
> 
> This argument has been brought up many times before.
> My point is, that it is not the corpses which had to be fumigated. For them
> it was unfortunately too late.
> It is the morgue itself, which may have been or was suspected to be infested
> with vernim, possibly from the clothes of the deceased who died from
> infectious diseases

Still, lice only live a few days, and nits no more than two weeks, without
a living host, so the morgue would have to be fumigated quite frequently
if this were a factor. Nevertheless, the rooms in question show evidence
of having been exposed to far lower concentrations of cyanide than the
fumigation chambers indicate.
 
> > My
> > point is that fumigation with Zyklon-B is a far more hazardous procedure
> > than killing people with Zyklon-B and thus properly includes it. If rooms
> > designated as morgues could be fumigated, then they could also be used as
> > places where the conditions obtaining in lethal gassing accidents could be
> > replicated, that is to say as functional gas chambers. If the cyanide
> > generated by Zykon-B could be maintained at the concentration and over the
> > time frame needed to fumigate, and then dissipated into the atmosphere
> > without constituting a hazard to the environment, then the same could be
> > done for the far lower concentrations of cyanide needed to kill people.
> >
> 
> We are really talking here about different approaches:
> 
> Eugene talks about accidental deaths, which of course is not disputed, and
> happen all the time.
> 
> The Holocaust revisionist on the other hand questions the systematic,
> government organized, extermination of Jews, mostly in gas chambers.

There is no difference with respect to methodology. Death by gassing is a
matter of fulfilling specific parameters. It does not matter a fig whether
these parameters are fulfilled deliberately or accidentally. One of the
more obvious ways to conceal the criminal intent behind systematic,
government organized, exterminations of Jews in gas chambers would be to
design the gas chambers so that the minimal parameters obtaining in a
gassing accident would be fulfilled. As you yourself admit, gassing
accidents happen all the time and, I would add, in premises that are not
specifically designed to be lethal gas chambers.

> This latter point of "uniqueness" is extremely important to the Holocaust
> religionists. Without it the Holocaust would loose its uniqueness and would
> put it on the level of events, like the burning of the inner city of
> Dresden, the nuclear bombing of Japanese civilian cities, the deportation of
> 13 million Germans and subsequent death of almost 3 million women and
> children, the aerial bombing of Vietnam and Cambodia with millions of
> victims,  and at present the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraquis for
> the security of Israel.

No. The activities of the Einsatzgruppen, mobile execution squads assigned
the task of liquidating communists and Jews, the latter because their
"blood" allegedly made them particularly susceptible to communism, suffice
to make the Holocaust unique. The firebombing of Dresden, the deportation
of ethnic Germans during the last months of the war, as well as the
atrocities that were or are being committed in Vietnam, Cambodia, and
Iraq, are all part of the hell that is war. The Nazis, realizing that what
they were doing was unprecendented, did not assign the Wehrmacht the task
of committing genocide ­ killing people for what they were rather than for
what they had done. The gas chambers, which represent but one of several
modalities of killing, are of no particular importance. 

Otto Ohlendorf could not have made things clearer:

Source: Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Einsatz2c.htm



Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was
between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ? 

A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern Jews,
in the case  of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign. These
Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that they
were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as
endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews who
were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all of
Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my
dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all costs to
get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed showed
that the charge of the prosecution that persons were persecuted for
their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish religion,
but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the Jewish
race. 

Q. I think, Witness, you answered exactly what I had anticipated in the
last sentence, "They did not belong to the Jewish Race," is that right? 

A. Yes, That is right. 

Q. They were found in Russia? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But they participated in the Jewish confession in Russia? 

A. The Karaims had the Jewish faith, yes. 

Q. But your race authorities in Berlin could find no trace of Jewish blood
in them? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So they came absolutely under the Fuehrer Decree or the Streckenbach
Order to kill all Jews? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Because of blood? 

A. Because they were of Jewish origin. For you must understand the Nazi
ideology, as you  call it. It was the opinion of the Fuehrer that in
Russia and in bolshevism, the representatives of this blood showed
themselves especially suitable for this idea, therefore, the carriers of
this blood became especially suitable representatives of the bolshevism.
That is not on account of their faith, or their religion, but because of
their human make-up and character. 

Q. And because of their blood, right? 

A. I cannot express it any more definitely than I stated, from their
nature and their  characteristics. Their blood, of course, has something
to do with it, according to National Socialist ideology. 

Q. Let's see, if I can understand it; we've got a lot of time, I hope.
What was the  distinction except blood? 

A. Between whom? 

B. Between the Karaims and the Krimchaks? 

A. The difference of the blood, yes. 

Q. Only the difference in blood, is that so? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So the criterion and the test which you applied in your slaughter was blood? 

A. The criteria which I used were the orders which I got, and it has not
been doubted  during the entire trial, that in this Fuehrer Order the Jews
were designated as the ones who belonged to that circle in Russia and who
were to be killed. 

Q. Very well, Witness, let's not quibble. Let's come back again. What you
followed was the Fuehrer Order. Now, I leave you out of it for a moment,
your own idea of what should be  killed and what should not be killed. 




> And the Jews cannot have this, they are the chosen ones, and their tragedies
> have to be unique.

The above passage indicates that people deemed by the Nazis to be of
Jewish blood along the eastern front had an unpleasant fate awaiting them
because of who they were and for no other reason.

> If there was a government planned extermination of Jews, Himmler would
> hardly have turned to a Höss, who had besides some administrative skills
> nothing to show for. 
> He was a veteran soldier from WWI, and that was all.

Hoess was a convicted murderer, showing that he had the *sang froid* to
deprive a human being of his life. Although many nazis were thugs and
bullies, not many of them had a track record like Hoess's.

> A government planned homicidal gas chamber for the systematic extermination
> of Jews would have been designed and built based on the professional input
> from toxicologists, chemists, the medicals, and an architect/engineering
> firm. 

That is your speculation. I counter by saying that a government planning
to commit mass murder on a continent-wide scale would develop several
alternative modalities for killing. This is even more the case if manpower
shortages and other economic considerations have to be taken into account.
As we know, the first eruption of genocidal activity, the mass killings
committed or instigated by the Einsatzgruppen between June and December
1941, were not cost effective. they left too much evidence in the form of
mass graves and people shot along the route to the killing site, they
demoralized and brutalized the people assigned to carry them out, and they
destroyed much needed manpower resources. General Walter Bruns, for
example, complained that the Rumbula massacre deprived the German war
effort of skilled seamstresses who had been producing the winter clothing
much needed by the Wehrmacht when it became apparent that the boys would
not be coming home from Russia home by Christmas.

> And what we are shown sofar in Auschwitz/Birkenau, in documentations
> and "criminal traces" just does not do it and is is totally insufficient.

You are entitiled to your own interpretation. There is no question in my
mind that the Leichenkeller in Kremas II, III, IV, and V at
Auschwitz-Birkenau could be used to replicate the conditions obtaining
during a fatal gassing accident and could thus function as minimalist
non-technical gas chambers. Indeed, this is the best way to go if you want
to keep the gas chambers as covert as possible and leave a minimum of
evidence. How much evidence do you think there is at the Dubrovka Theater
today that auditorium once functioned as a gas chamber? If cyanide were to
be introduced through its ventilation system today, anybody sitting in the
auditorium would be killed, once again with minimal evidence. The same
situation could be repeated as much as anybody wanting to kill
theater-goers wanted until word got out. In a tightly controlled society
like Nazi Germany, word would probably never get out except in the form of
vague rumors.

Killing people with poison gas is extraordinarily easy, once you get them
into a suitable enclosure. There is no need to go for a high-tech solution
if attractive no-tech or low-tech alternatives are available.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:13 EST 2005
Article: 1046130 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newspeer2.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:54:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References:  <42942898$0$273$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>  <119ahb5puj6el7d@corp.supernews.com>  <119c1qifpq72d1c@corp.supernews.com>  <4296fbec$0$259$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
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In article
<4296fbec$0$259$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2705051052290001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> 
> >
> > Still, lice only live a few days,
> 
> You're absolutely certain of that, are you? 

I am, if you would have included the part of the sentence that makes
reference to the necessity of having a living host:

"Still, lice only live a few days, and nits no more than two weeks, without
a living host, so the morgue would have to be fumigated quite frequently
if this were a factor." 

Lice are parasites with a metabolism that requires a steady supply of
fresh blood that can only be obtained from a living host. The adult lice
would have died no more than 48 hours after the death of their hosts. Nits
can survive longer, but in the absence of a host they grow weaker and die
within two weeks (for details, see
http://www.safe2use.com/pests/lice/history.htm).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:13 EST 2005
Article: 1046171 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!24.30.200.11!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:00:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 15
Message-ID: 
References:  <42942898$0$273$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>  <119ahb5puj6el7d@corp.supernews.com>  <119c1qifpq72d1c@corp.supernews.com>  <4296fbec$0$259$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>  <119e7ajjcn5m967@corp.supernews.com>
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In article <119e7ajjcn5m967@corp.supernews.com>, "Emil Müller"
 wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:holman-2705051454110001@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...

> 
> But why then fumigate dwellings, warehouses, barracks, trains, ships etc
> with Zyklon-B, if there is no vernim to fumigate because they are already
> all dead as you tell us?

Because lice are not the only kind of vermin. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:14 EST 2005
Article: 1046888 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:45:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References:   <42976B2D.4020704@kaioe.com> <1117230571.790112.134060@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  <42996e53$0$267$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
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In article
<42996e53$0$267$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer"  wrote:

> "Ron Jacobson"  wrote in message 
> news:d7bo87$5g8$1@pcls4.std.com...
> > In article <1117230571.790112.134060@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>I always wondered how the SS-men opened and closed the various louvered
> >>openings of the air intake- and exhaust ducts, and the floor drainage
> >>gutters installed at several points in the center of the morgue floor?
> >>
> >>The duct openings should be closed during the gassing process. After
> >>this is completed a ss-man with a gas mask on has to go inside, climb
> >>over the thousand or more corpses, armed with a step ladder reach to
> >>the air louvers to open them.
> >
> >   All the aeration openings led into ducts which went outside
> > the chamber.  No one had to go inside to open them.
> >
> >   Boy,  you must also wonder how the Nazis built submarines.  Think
> > of the problems THAT must have caused.
> >
> > RJ.
> >
> 
> 
> Tum podem extulit horridulum. 

Quemadmodum eum tum podem horridulum extulisse scis?

\EH


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:14 EST 2005
Article: 1046894 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!204.127.161.7.MISMATCH!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!207.115.63.142!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!feeder.xsnews.nl!newsfeed.bit.nl!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.baltics
Subject: Re: Russian Puppets Hiding In Mufti
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:14:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 77
Message-ID: 
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In article , "Big Bad Uncle
Russ"  wrote:

> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
> news:holman-2605051010030001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...

> >
> > It is provable and known to everybody with an interest in the history of
> > the balkans. Bulgarian is a Slavic language, but the Bulgarians are
> > primarily the descendants of the originally Turkic-speaking Bolgars whose
> > former homeland was along the shores of the Volga. They moved southward,
> > abandoning their Turkic language for Slavic along the way. They had
> > arrived in what is now Bulgaria by the eighth century AD. For details, see
> > http://www.kroraina.com/p_bulgar/.
> 
> With all due respect, Holman, I think the general population
> looks a mixture of everything.
> I am not trying sell racial supremacy, but my point would be that
> people in the Balkans had a long and complex history
> and should not be taken as an etalon of looking Slavic.

Are not the people of everywhere, particularly Russia, the result of a
long and complex history?
 
> Certainly the Hellenic and pre-Hellenic characters seems
> very strong even today. So if I say that ancient Hungarians
> and Bulgarians looked Turkic, that is by no means representative
> in modern times where they are assimilated.

I don't accept the vague notion 'look Turkic'. I've worked with Kazakhs,
Turmenians, Uzbeks, and Turks, and even though they are all Turkic
peoples, they all look quite different from each other as well as from
most Bulgarians and Hungarians. Similarly, the Slavs break down into three
subgroups, and while Macedonians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Slovenes, Croats,
Czechs, Slovaks, Sorbs, Serbs, Poles, Ruthenians, Ukrainians,
Belarussians, northern Russians, Siberyaki, and southern Russians all
speak Slavic languages and consider themselves to be Slavs, I do not see
any common anthropological or cultural thread.

> 
> I think Byzantine census between fifth and tenth century
> would confirm just that.
> 
> Your closes call for "less altered" Slavic people
> would be in Russia.:))

I beg to disagree. Due to four centuries of Russian empire building,
Russian is the most widespread Slavic language, the only Slavic language
that can make any claim to being an international language with a large
body of second-language speakers. The Russians are the numerically largest
Slavic people, but being Russian is very much like being American: go two
or three generations back, and you find that many people who regard
themselves as Russians today had a Karelian, Komi, Tatar, Kalmuck,
Bashkir, Khazar, Chuvash, Ukrainian, Buriat, or who knows what as a
great-grandparent. Russia is an anthrological and linguistic melting pot,
and its Slavic culture in its present form is not only relatively recent
but also strongly influenced by the cultures upon which it has been
superimposed. Russian culture, being the Slavic culture that has
interacted with by far the widest range of exotic cultures, is strongly
Eurasian in a way that non-expansive Slavic cultures such as those of the
Slovaks and Slovenians are not and cannot be. Thus, I would hardly choose
Russia as any kind of paragon or étalon of Slavic people or culture. In
many ways, the relation of Russian culture to the other Slavic cultures
and peoples bears many similarities to the relation of English culture to
the other Germanic cultures and features. Russian has more first and
second language speakers than all of the other Slavic languages combined,
but I would hesitate to call it the most typical or default Slavic
language, just I would hesitate to call English the most typical Germanic
language.

> Thank you for your great articles.
> I follow them with great interest.

Thank you for your positive feedback.

Reagrds,
Eugene Holman


From holman@mappi.helsinki.fi Thu Dec  1 12:41:14 EST 2005
Article: 1047030 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-quince!easynet.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Growth of Revisionism
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:02:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:   <42976B2D.4020704@kaioe.com> <1117230571.790112.134060@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  <42996e53$0$267$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>  
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In article , Gord McFee
 wrote:

> On 5/30/2005 7:45 AM, Eugene Holman wrote:

> >>
> >>Tum podem extulit horridulum. 
> > 
> > 
> > Quemadmodum eum tum podem horridulum extulisse scis?
> 
> Hehehehe, you got him there.
> 
> BTW, is there any language you *don't* know?  :-)

There are more than 6,000 languages in the world, I have studied perhaps
100 of them to some degree or another, and claim some kind of active
knowledge of between 10 and 20 of them, mostly of the Germanic, Slavic,
Romance, and Finno-Ugric groups, in addition to basic Japanese, Latin, and
Ancient Greek. It is easier to learn related languages as a group rather
than separately. Thus, rather than just learn Russian, it is easier to
study Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak, Polish, and Bulgarian, for example, all
at the same time [note that I purposely excluded Czech].

That being said, Latin I am eternally grateful that the University of
Helsinki still had a rigorous Latin requirement when I was a student, and
that Finland is a country where Latin was and continues to be seriously
cultivated. Knowledge of Latin not only develops one's undertanding of the
Western European vocabulary and many of the metaphors and ways of thinking
underlying it, but it also assists in learning to organize complex
thoughts. 

If you would like to read and hear the current news in Latin, check out
Radio Finland's Nuntii Latini website at  http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/
.

Regards,
Eugene Holman



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