From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:00 EDT 2001
Article: 972981 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Waldo helps demonstrate that anti-Semitism is irrational
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In article <3BC3538E.E2DC5783@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

[reposted with corrections]

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3BC1AFB2.3C482531@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > =========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > My problem with your "evidence" is that too much of it is in the form of
> > > testimony and the value of that testimony rests on the assumption that the
> > > testifiers were telling the Truth. Revisionist research has shown that
> > > there
> > > are excellent reasons why in many cases they were not.
> >
> > Yes, a lot of the evidence for the Holocaust is in the form of
> > testimony because tens of millions of people were, in some way or
> > another, involved in the Holocaust, a process involving more than
> > fifteen countries, and which lasted for twelve years. There is, however,
> > an abundance of evidence that is _not_ in the form of testimony. This
> > includes the *forensic* evidence in the mass graves at Serniki and on
> > the walls of the gas chamber ruins at Auschwitz-Stammlager,
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Probably what you have in mind in one of the reports from the Krakow
> Institute.

I have in mind the documented exhumation of Jeckeln-type mass graves in
Serniki and Ustinovka by a forensic archeologist
(http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html) as well as the forensic
reports done in Poland, both the one compiled immediately after the war
by Dr. Jan Robel of the Cracow Forensic Institute in 1945, and the
later one conducted by the IFRC and published in 1994.


> We've been over this before. The only way you can make your case would be to
> show
> that thi HCN traces found on the walls of the (alleged) execution chamber
> approximate to what we would expect to find in a structure that had been
> subjected
> to roughly the same exposure that allegedly took place and was sufficient to
> kill
> 1M people.

Nonsense. Nobody has ever claimed that the gas chamber in Krema II, the
only one at Auschwitz which is even partially preserved, was used to
kill 1M people. Historical sources tell us that gassings were conducted
at two places at Auschwitz-Stammlager, Block 13 and Krema I, as well
as at six places at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Of the six places at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, two have been totally destroyed, three survive only
as foundations of buildings, and one survives as ruins. The one that
survives as ruins originally had one gas chamber in it, but this was
divided up into two to accommodate smaller gassings. 

The Krakow report demonstrated that concentrations of cyanide compounds
on the walls and surviving ventilation structures of Krema II contain
concentrations of cyanide compounds that are sometimes almost three
quarters as high as the *highest* concentrations of cyanide compounds
found in the fumigatioin chambers. This even after half a century of
exposure to the elements.

Since abundant other historical evidence indicates that this structure
as well as other structures at Ausvhwitz-Birkenau and elsewhere were
used as gas chambers, there is no need to conduct the type of
experiment you are suggesting. There is nothing extraordinary or
unprecedented about these structurs or their use as enclosures to kill
the people trapped within with poison gas. The presence of cyanide
compounds on the walls and in the venitlation systems is proof that
the structure in question was repeatedly exposed to concentrations
of cyanide high enough to kill people. Even Leuchter is forced,
unwittingly, to admit this. He attributes the cyanide compounds he
found at the ruins of Krema II to a fumigation. If the structures could
contain and withstand the concentrations of compound needed for
fumigation, then they could necessarily contain and withstand the far
lower concentrations of cyanide neded to kill people.
 
> This you are unable to do because no one has ever performed the experiments
> necessayr to establish what we should expect.

Nobody has ever done such experiments because ever since the first
forensic examinations were conducted back in 1945, it has been
generally known and accepted that the premises in question were gas
chambers. The results of the forensic examination were used as evidence
at the trial of Auschwitz commendant Rudolf Hoess, a person who gave
testimony as an expert witness at the Nuremberg trial of Ernst
Kaltenbrunner and then wrote in considerable detail in his memoirs
about how the structures were used as gas chambers. He never denied
allegations that the structures were gas chambers and he provided the
Nurmeberg Tribunal and the historical record with a large amount of
information about their use.

> 
> ==========================================
> 
> >
> > Auschwitz-Birkenau. and Majdanek, the documentray evidence from
> > *diplomatic correspondence* of a radically different attitude of Nazi
> > Germany towards the Jews of Hungary before, when Hungary was a
> > cobelligerent, and afterwards, when Hungary was another country invaded
> > and occuped by Nazi Germany, and voluminous *military* evidence in the
> > form of documents recording and even photographing the arrest,
> > deportation to extermination facilities
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Arrests and deportations certainly did take place. This has never been
> questioned.  The existence of so-called "extermination" facilities certanly
> HAS
> been questioned.
> 
> =====================================

Not by anyone with even a superficial knowledge of the period. Even
David Irving accepts that historical evidence indicates "that in a
period of about five weeks in 1927, 97,000 were killed at Chelmno by
the use of gas vans" (Day 2, page 242).

> > , and subsequent dissapearance
> 
> > from the historical record, of several million Jews from Norway,
> > Finland, Germany, Slovakia, the Netherlands, Poland, France,
> > Slovakia, Belgium, Italy, Luxembourg, Hungary, Greece, and several
> > other countries.
> >
> > The assumption is not so much that the testifiers were telling the
> > truth. Rather, if you want to considerthe voluminous amount of
> > testimonial evidence, it rests on the assumption that if you have
> > millions of people from radically different circumstances who have
> > never met each other, speak different and mutually incomprehensible
> > languages, and who, In an age before Internet and multinational mass
> > communications, almost certainly never met each other, but are
> > nevertheless giving essentially the same testimony, there is some
> > reason for regarding it as credible.
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Your assumptions are wrong. The inmates with whom we are primarily concerned
> were
> Eastern European Jews who DID speak a common language: Yiddish. 

Wrong. Most, by no means all, Eastern European Jews spoke Yiddish.
Eastern European Jews from Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Russia, Slovakia,
Czechia, Belorussia, Ukraine were likely to speak Yiddish, those from
Estonia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania, and Greece were more likely not
to. Yiddish was not widely spoken among German Jews, indeed they tended
to deprecate it, while it was virtually unknown amongst the younger
generation of French, Italian, Belgian, Luxembourgian, Dutch, Danish,
and Norwegian Jews, who normally rejected Yiddish and spoke only the
language of their surroundings (see Neil G. Jacobs et al. "Yiddish", in
E. König and Johan van der Auwera, _The Germanic Languages_, Routledge,
1994, pg. 388 ff. for details and a bibliography).

> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Also a great
> many
> of them were German speakers. So you see they were not only in daily contact
> with
> each other but had no difficulty in talkng to each other.
> 
> =========================================

Once again, educated Central and Eastern European Jews were likely to
know German, but the majority of them did not. Jews from the countries
speaking Latin languages were not likely to know German, those from
Flanders, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Norway, and
Denmark were.

Communication was always a problem for the Nazis: when the Riga
massacre was being implemented they had to use several interpreters,
since the Jews of Riga had no common language. Instructions were issued
in German and Latvian and then translated into Yiddish and Russian. At
Auschwitz Polish, German, English, Yiddish, Ladino (Judeo-Spanish), and
other languages were used. Sonderkommando member Henryk Tauber states
(http://www.mazel.org/archive/documents/Tauber/Tauber04.htm) concerning
the access staircase to the gas chamber in Krema II that "[o]ver the
door there was a sign with the inscription "Zum Baden und Desinfektion"
(to bath and disinfection), written in several languages. I remember the
word "banya" [Russian for steam bath] was there too."

> >
> > Of course consistent testimonial evidence of people who hardly had the
> > opportunity to meet each other is only one type of Holocaust evidence.
> > Those mass graves
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Graves prove only that people died. That is not in question.
> 
> =====================================

These were not just graves, these were _Jeckeln-type_ graves.
Jeckeln-type graves are produced using a specific methodology:

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm


In the forest adjoining the camp [Salaspils], graves had been prepared
by the inmates. After they had undressed, the victims were either shot
immediately at the edge of the graves or else they were ordered to lie
face down between the legs of those already shot, and were then killed.
The latter method saved much-needed space. It was invented by
Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckeln, who called it Sardinenpackung
(sardine packaging).


They provide physical evidence that corroborates other evidence that
the people in the graves, many of them children and infants, were mass
murdered:


An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they were
mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been herded
down a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been shot
while lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right.
The majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls. Some
of them had been clubbed. 

At the end the Soviets were working on, the bodies lay face down,
parallel and in rows. At our end the bodies were much more
disorganised. There seemed to have been panic at our end. 



Now we turn to the work in Ustinovka, a year later in 1991. Here we had
Sergeant Steve Horne in place of David Hughes. Dr Chris Griffiths, a
specialist in forensic dentistry at Westmead Hospital, joined Godfrey
Oettle on the forensic side. He was needed because of a particularly
awful allegation about the killings there. It was alleged that after a
hundred or so adults had been marched two kilometres to a grave and
shot, a fellow had asked where the children were. "We didn't think you
wanted to shoot the children," the organisers of the round up had said.
At that, some fellows returned to the village, commandeered a cart, and
drove the children back to the grave. They then, so the allegations
went, threw the children off the cart and into the grave, and shot
them. I was told that the SIU investigators had interviewed the mother
of three of those children (the father was a Jew, she wasn't). She said
she had returned from the fields for lunch one day. Her children were
not in the house. She asked the neighbours whether they had seen the
children. The neighbours told her they had been taken away to be shot. 



Remembering the story that children had been killed after the adults,
our stratigraphic evidence provided stunning support for this story. We
came down on the children's skeletons first, and then what seemed to be
the bottom of the grave. But 20 centimetres below the children lay the
adults. The witnesses did not actually mention that the grave had been
partly filled after the adults were killed, but obviously our
stratigraphic observations provide important material evidence for
their statement that children were killed later. 

p.44 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES - THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE 

There were about 20 children. The youngest one was about six months and
virtually destroyed in the soil except for the teeth. The oldest one
was about 12 or 13 years old. 

Thus we were able to get evidence that would have been missed without
attention to scientific methods of excavation. At Ustinovka, maybe even
the grave itself would have been missed. 



> 
> > , dormant bank accounts and life-insurance policies,
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> THese prove only that people were uprooted. That is not in question.
> 
> =============================

Uprooted people generally attempt to link up with their assets once they
have settled down. Why were there *hundreds of thousands* of unclaimed
life insurance policies and dormant bank accounts? Why should people go
to the effort of finding a secure haven for their assets abroad and
then abandon them?

> > traces of cyanide compounds, photographs of massacres, military
> > reports, anatomical collections, research reports of pseudomedical
> > experiments carried out mostly on Jews, statements of intent, speeches
> > of fulfillment of intent, architectural diagrams, and diplomatic
> > correspondence with the governments of countries in various types of
> > relationships with Nazi Germany also count as sources of evidence.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> We are here concerned solely with the question: Did mass extermination by
> gassing
> take place at the centres in Poland allegedly set up for that purpose. If you
> have
> evidence that bears specifically on that question, please present it. Please,
> no
> more vague pot-pouri's.
> 
> ========================================

That is _not_ the way to formulate the question. You are trying to
argue against the factuality of a whole by quibbling about a detail.
The proper formulation of the question would start by establishing the
general framework, and then putting the issue you are querying into a
context:


1. General question

Did Nazi Germany implement a systematic, continent-wide program
between 1939 and 1945 to exterminate European Jewry?

The evidence indicates that the answer is "yes".

Having established that, you would ask a more specific question:

2. More specific question

Did part of the systematic, continent-wide program to exterminate
implemented by Nazi Germany between 1939 and 1945 include the use of
gas chambers?

The evidence indicates that the answer is yes. The Nazis used mobile
and stationary gas chambers during this period at concentration camps
(e.g. Ravensbrück, Stutthof), euthanasia centers (e.g. Brandenburg,
Hadamar), and extermination centers (e.g. Chelmno, Sobibor) located in
Germany (e.g. Ravensbrück), France (Natzweiler), and occupied Poland
(e.g. Auschwitz-Stammlager, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Majdanek,
Sobibor, Treblinka).

Only after having established that would you go on to the question you
are proposing:

3. Question of detail

Did part of the use of gas chambers within the framework of this
extermination program take place at centers in Nazi-occupied Poland
allegedly set up for this purpose?

The evidence provided by analysis of the intact, partially restored, or
ruined gas chambers at Auschwitz-Stammlager (Block 13, Krema I),
Auschwitz-Birkenau (Kremas II, III, IV, and V), and Majdanek, as well
as documentary evidence concerning the mobile gas chambers at Chelmno
and the no longer extanbt stationary gas chambers at the Aktion
Reinhard gas chambers at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, indicate that
the answer is ih the affirmative.

It is interesting, and indicative, that you are sing the same specious
mode of argumentation that David Irving favors: if the structure at
Auschwitz was not a gas chamber, then there were no gas chambers at
all. If there were no gas chambers at all, then there was no Holocaust.
This is a variation of Robert Faurisson's equally absurd mantra "No
holes, no Holocaust".

> > > ===================================================
> >
> > Try lying about a continent-wide program which verifiably resulted in
> > the extinction of a major European culture.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> The statement was not aimed at you. Indeed, you are one of the very few honest
> persons here.
> 
> That the Jewish culture of Eastern Europe was destroyed is not in question. What
> is in question is HOW it was destroyed.
> 
> ========================================

Most generally, it was destroyed as the result of a continent-wide,
systematic program of extermination implemented and orchestrated by
Nazi Germany between 1939 and 1945, with the legal, attitudinal, and
methodological groundwork being laid between 1933 and 1939,
specifically by Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Adolf
Eichmann, with the encouragement, support, and experience of Adolf
Hitler, Hermnann Göring, Friedrich Jeckeln, Rudolf Hoess, Heinrich
Müller, Oswald Pohl, Walter Stahlecker, Christian Wirth, Walther
Stangl, Richard Glücks, the SS, the T-4 euthanasia program, and
assistance rendered by local fascist, anti-Semitic, and paramilitary
groupings

Regards,
Eugene Holman.


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:00 EDT 2001
Article: 973039 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Waldo helps demonstrate that anti-Semitism is irrational
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:37:10 +0300
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In article <3BC3538E.E2DC5783@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Your assumptions are wrong. The inmates with whom we are primarily concerned
> were
> Eastern European Jews who DID speak a common language: Yiddish. Also a great
> many
> of them were German speakers. So you see they were not only in daily contact
> with
> each other but had no difficulty in talkng to each other.
> 
> =========================================

The issue of their not having a common langauge has already been
addressed. 

What support can you give for your claim that they were in daily
contact with one another?

The historical record shows that Jews were transported on a
country-by-country, county-by-county, city-by-city,
distirct-by-district basis either to transit camps, where a preliminary
classification was made to determine whether they would be interned in
concentration camps, sent to extermination centers, or sent to
multifunctional camps such as Auschwitz and Majdanek. Sometimes the
transit camp phase was omitted and entire shipments were sent to one
camp or another. This activity involved more than fifteen countries, it
extended over a course of more than four years, and it involved the
more than 10,000 concentration camps, extermination centers, and
subcamps operated by the Nazis.

How on earth can you calim that they were in daily contact with one
another? How could a French Jew, deported to Auschwitz in 1942, be in
daily contact with an Hungarian Jew, sent to Majdanek in 1944? Wat
basis do you have for assuming that a Greek Jew, sent to
Auschwiz-Stammlager in 1944, would have been able to meet and talk with
a Dutch Jew interned at Auschwitz-Birkenau in late 1944 after the
gassings had been stopped? The fact that people, such as the Slovak Jew
Rudolf Vrba, the Polish Jew Henryk Tauber, and the French Jew David
Olère all testified essentially the same detailed story as Auschwitz
Kommandant Rudolf Hoess and Auschwitz physician Hans Münch testified
about the nature, place, method, and frequenct of gassings, even though
it is unlikely that they ever met or, if they had met, would have had a
common langauge, the time, and the desire to make up a yarn about gas
chambers that never existed and gassings that neve took place, and
then, perhaps, exposed walls and ventilators to lethal concentrations
of cyanide, forged documents about Zyklon-B delivieries without the
warning agent, and then had thousands of people to pass the story on,
all while spiriting Jews off to New York and Florida and convincing
them to abdon their considerable assets in Swiss banks, is as obscene
as it is absurd. We are dealing here with millions of people in
thousands of localities in a variety of rapidly changing cultural and
geopolitical circumstances. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:00 EDT 2001
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Waldo helps demonstrate that anti-Semitism is irrational
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In article <3BC45E3B.E00579E6@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

(reposting with corrections)

> ===================================================================
> 
> Phillips
>
> (1) There was among East European Jews a common language: Yiddish. If from
> them we
> go westward and talk about Jews who came from Hungary, Austria, Czechoslovakia
> (what used to be the old Austro-Hungarian empire) we find they were commonly
> speakers of German. So what we have is that most (or at least a great many)
> of the
> Jewish inmates belonged to one of two language groups: the Yiddish speakers
> and the
> German speakers.

What you say is more true than not true, but it needs considerable
qualification.
1. Not all the Jews at Auschwitz or any other concentration camp were
Eastern European Jews. Note, for example, that more than 100,000 Dutch
Jews, more than 75,000 French Jews, some 28,000 Belgian Jews, and
approximately 65,000 Greek Jews were among those exterminated by the
Nazis. The Jewish communities in these Western (or peripheral)
countries were more assimilated than the Jews in Central and Eastern
Europe (the nucelar heartland) and they were likely than not to speak
only the language of their native country.

2. For many Central European Jews, knowledge of Yiddish or German was
something acquired as part of growing up or as a consequence of
education. The first language of many Polish Jews was Polish, of many
Hungarian Jews, Hungarian, of many Romanian Jews, Romanian. Yiddish was
spoken by more men than by women, and by more adults than by children.
German in countries like Romania and Greece was rarely spoken by people
who did not have a university education or regular contacts with
Germans. So, what you claim is certainly true for Jews from the
countryside or from the shtetl, particularly if they were from Russia,
the Ukraine, Lithuania, or Belorussia. The further west you go, the
rarer Yiddish becomes, with German become more common among the
educated, but not the uneducated, except, of course, In Germany. In the
countries to the west r north of Germany, if they were Germanic,
Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium (Flanders), Luxembourg, educated
adult Jewish men were as alikely as not to know German, but the same
cannot be said for women or children. In countries such as Belgium
(Wallonia), France, and Italy, Yiddish and German were rare among the
Jewish populations who were a few generations ahead of their Eastern
European counterparts with respect to linguistic and cultural
assimilation.

3. Entire Jewish communities were uprooted and deported, this meaning
that adult, multilingual men were in the minority. Women, children,
and babies, made up the majority, and they were the least likely to be
multilingual or fluent in German or Yiddish.

4. Mass communications in the form of radio and sound movies were still
quite a novelty back then, and the type of language standardization and
leveling of dialectal differences we take for granted today ("network
English") was not yet a fact with respect to Yiddish, German, or many
of the other languages spoken by the people at concentration camps
during the early 1940s. Yiddish, which has never had a standard form
and exists in numerous dialects, is not uniform and has a habit of
taking words, phrases, and pronunciation habits from local languages.
'Polish', 'Lithuanian', and 'Ukrainian' Yiddish differ from one another
phonetically, grammatically, and lexically, sometimes to the degree of
being almost mutually incomprehensible, very much like Swiss German or
Bavarian compared to northern German. Germans speaking dialectally had
a standard, Hochdeutsch, that they could turn to, Jews speaking Yiddish
lacked such a standard.

So, easy communication was not a given, and interpretation,
translation, and multilingualism were a central part of life at
concentration camps.

> ===================================================================
> 
> Phillips
> 
>  And was there any insuperable communication barrier between
> those
> two? No. Yiddish and German speakers can talk to each other. (I've seen them
> do it
> in Israel.)

They can, as long as they stick to basics and have some idea of what in
their language is not likely to be understood by someone speaking the
other. An example:

Yiddish:
A balagole hot gehat a sheyn ferdl. Er hot gevelt gevöynen dos ferdl,
es zol kenen lebn nit essndik.

For a person who knows German the structure and other grammatical
features of the sentences above are understandable, but most of the
lexical words are not. Even words with German cognates such as ferdl
(cf. Pferdl/Pferedel/Pferdele, a dialectal diminutive of Pferd 'horse')
appear in a form not immediately transparent. 

As long as you are dealing with basics and speak slowly, there is
considerable similarity between Yiddish and German, but they are not
mutually comnprehensible as are, say Norwegian and Swedish or even
German and Dutch. Much of the basic vocabulary of Yiddish is from
Hebrew, Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish, and would be incomprehensible to
a speaker of German without some competence in those languages.

> ===================================================================
> 
> Phillips
>  
> (2) Auschwitz was a major industrial centre where the Jews laboured for the
> German
> war machine. 

Doesn't that strike you as, well, ironic? Why should the Jews be
working to enable the Wehrmacht to catch and enslave more Jews unless
the alternative was... That's a clear clue that something was terribly
amiss, that disobedience was not just a simple matter of solitary
confinement and bread and water for a week.

> ===================================================================
> 
> Phillips
>  
> The life they lived was a largely communal life. They worked
> together,
> ate together, and slept in barracks-type housing. So, not only COULD they
> talk to
> each other, but had ample opportunities for doing so. THis helps to explain
> why
> rumours were so rife in the camps and why so much so-called "survivor"
> testimony
> arose largely from such rumours.

Average life expectancy at Auschwitz, even in the best of times, was a
few months, so people were constantly coming and going, with those who
survived longest noticing that one month it was French Jews who spoke
nothing but French, the next month Norwegian Jews who spoke Norwegian
and more English than German, the next month Greek Jews who spoke only
Greek, the next month German Jews, who spoke German and a little
improvised Yiddish, the next month Czech Jews who spoke some Polish
Yiddish and German in addition to Czech...

Certainly there were rumors. However some of the survivors were in
positions of trust (Kapos, Sonderkommando members), and they had access
to more and better information. Not all survivor testimony is to be
discounted. Particularly not when it corroborates evidence obtained
>from totally independent sources. For example, Tauber's testimony,
Olère's drawings, and the architectural plans for Krema II mutually
confirm many minute details, such as the spiral staircase, replaced in
the architectural drawings at the last minute, which provides access to
the subterranean gas chamber there.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:00 EDT 2001
Article: 973728 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Brown on the Jewishness of Kaganovitch
Supersedes: <111020012123310162%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:27:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 44
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In article , "Jeffrey G.
Brown"  wrote:

> In article <3BC51E1E.33DA165@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. 'Thank God for those 
> murders' Phillips"  wrote:
> 
> > [...deletia...]
> 
> Phillips never presented evidence that Kaganovitch was Jewish.
> 
> Every time I challenge it to provide evidence of its claims, it obligingly 
> demonstrates that it cannot.
> 

There are definition problems here.

As far as Russia is concerned, there is no questioning the obvious and
easily verified fact that Kaganovich belonged to the Jewish ethnicity.
In other words, he was born into a family of people who were regarded
by Russians as being members of a non-Russian ethnicity, that is to say
Jews, and his documents in czarist Russia and the USSR would have borne
the word "yevrey" [= Jew] in the section for nationality
("nacionalnost'").

This ethnic dimension has little, if anything, to do with Jews or
Judaism as understood in the West, where being a Jew is a matter of
lifestyle choices, not an ethnicity.

All available evidence indicates that Kaganovich was, from the Rusian
perspective, an ethnic Jew. All available evidence indicates that he,
like our friend Mr. Phillips, was a virulently anti-Semitc individual
who had a strong aversion to practicing Jews and would have sold
himself to the Devil for the chance to do anything harmful or
dysfunctional to Jews.

Kaganovich was an ethnic Jew because one cannot choose one's parents.
When it came to free will, Kaganovich chose to be a virulent
anti-Semite who was interested in stomping out all manifesttaions of
Judaism as a religion and lifestyle choice.

Kaganovich was a Jew, just as Phillips is a Jew.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:01 EDT 2001
Article: 974024 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO SAYS AN INCH AIN'T ENOUGH? DO IT AGAIN, TAVISH!!!
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:18:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 50
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In article <3BC321C9.1FE7672F@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> "Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:
> 
> > Grosvenor: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/grosvenor-william
> >
> > --
> >  "Irving's conclusions were completely untenable. I thought his
> > scholarship was sloppy and unreliable and did not meet even the
> > most basic requirements of honest and competent historical
> > research."             (Richard Evans, Lying About Hitler, p.70)
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Typical sour grapes from an indifferently-successful academic getting
> his revenge for the fact that Irving is a widely-known and
> widely-published author author while he (Evans) is not.
> 
> =================================================

Richard Evans happens to be the Professor of Modern History at
Cambridge University, a much more prestigious and important position
than David Irving's status as a sensation-mongering, ignorant, and now
thoroughly discredited popularizer of history who has to give his books
away free over the Internet. Irving is widely known and - prior to his
having been exposed for all the world to see - widely published in the
sense that, when it comes to publications about mice, Mickey Mouse
comicbooks are more widely read and known than learnèd tomes about the
physiology and evolution of mice and their relationship to other
rodents are.

Richard Evans does not turn out sloppily researched, unbalanced, and
provably mendacious work of the type David Irving does. He has written
several well-acclaimed books on modern German history, including _In
Defense of History_ and _In Hilter's Shadow_. Consequent to his having
been called upon to serve as the principal expert witness in the David
Irving trial, he has published a book, _Lying about Hitler_, an exposé
of David Irving's way of fabricating history. 

Richard Evans carefully researched publications will be in major
reference libraries long after David Irving's lies, distortions, and
instantiations of ignorance ("it takes colossally higher concentrations
to kill people than it does to kill lice") have been consigned to the
shredder. When evaluating publications one has to be able to
distinguish between quality and quantity.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:01 EDT 2001
Article: 974771 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Werner Knoll": Just another liar
Supersedes: <141020011355330631%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:20:02 +0300
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In article <3BC93A3B.BBC6C7FE@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Ilya Ehrenburg ("German women are your lawful prey ..."), Elie Wiesel ("Every
> Jew must
> hold in his heart ..."), Theodore Kaufmann (Germany Must Perish), Daniel
> Goldhagen,
> Henry Morgenthau (of the Morgenthau Plan).
> 
> ===================================================

Ilya Ehrenburg was a citizen of a country which was perfidiously
sneak-attacked by its putative ally (remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop
pact) on June 22, 1941. More than 25,000,000 of his compatriots were
killed in this war. Even if his words deserve contempt, the feelings
that generated them do not.

Elie Wiesel was a person who spent a good part of his youth as a forced
laborer in Nazi concentration camps because he happened to be a Jew
born in a country that Germany invaded. He experienced and witnessed
unspeakable brutality at the hands of his Nazi captors, including the
summary hanging of a 14-year old fellow inmate for a minor infraction
of the rules. Witnessing something like that at a tender age can
traumatize a person for life.

Theodore Kaufman [sic] (see http://www.h-ref.de/ar/krer/peri.shtml) was
a Jewish propagandist during WW II who became aware of what the Nazis
were doing to the Jews early in the war. Note that Kaufman merely
suggested sterilizing the Germans to ensure that they would not put
Europe through the wringer yet again, while the Nazis actually did
sterilize mulattos, the mentally retarded, and others deemed racially
unfit.

Daniel Goldhagen wrote a controversial but meticulously researched book
about the role of ordinary Germans in implementing the Holocaust and,
in a wider sense, the anti-Semitism which has long been a component of
German culture. He did history the service of attaching names to, and
giving background information about, the good German Kleinbürger who
shot women, children, and babies, and then sent postcards to their
friends bragging about it, or arbitrarily brutalized and deathmarched
concentration camps inmates.

Henry Morgenthau, the grandson of German Jewish immigrants, became
aware of the systematic Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe
during the summer of 1942. He agitated to have the US government do
something about it, eventually influencing president Roosevelt to
establish the War Refugee Board in January, 1944. His Morgenthau Plan,
which was primarily aimed at dismantling German heavy industry and
making Germany an agricultural country, and, secondarily, at
de-Nazifying young Germans by making them wards of the state and having
them taught by allied soldiers, wasessentially a pre-emptive suggestion
to ensure that the events of the mid-1930s, when Germany violated the
Versailles Peace Treaty and rearmed, would not be repeated. It was, as
you surely know, never taken seriously by the US government.
Morgenthau's plan as such was never implemented. On the other hand, in
a similar vein the Nazis did slaughter the intellectual and leadership
level of Polish society, attempting to make it a nation of peons who
would work for their German masters, and they did kidnap Aryan-looking
children from Poland and Czechoslovakia, "reprogramming" them and
placing them in German foster families to be raised as Germans within
the framework of Project Lebensborn.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:01 EDT 2001
Article: 974873 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:27:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 160
Message-ID: <141020012127436592%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3BC9C581.8344F50C@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> >
> >
> > l. The circumstantial evidence that personnel involved in developing mass
> > gassing techniques within the framework of the T-4 euthanasia program such
> > as Franz Stangle and Christian Wirth later wound up as commandants of
> > extermiantion centers where mass gassing methods representing evolutionary
> > more sophisticated variants of those developed at the T-4 centers were
> > used.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Although statements have been made that the T4 killings were done by gassing,
> no
> evidence to that effect has been presented that I know of. 

The Nazis photographed and filmed people being gassed, and some of this
material is discussed in specialist books dealing with the T-4 program
such as M. Burleigh's _Death and Deliverance: 'Euthanasia' in Germany
1900-1945_. New York, New York, Cambridge University Press, 1994.
Evidence of gassing was also presented as evidence at the post-war
Doctors' trial:

Source: http://www.haciendapub.com/article21.html




Within Germany itself, camouflage organizations were set up to cover
the financing of the operation and the transport of mental patients to
the killing centers. The entire operation was named Aktion T4 after
Tiergarten 4 --- the address of a confiscated Jewish home in Berlin
which housed the administrative offices of the project. Forty-eight
doctors were recruited to review nearly 300,000 applications for
euthanasia from the psychiatric centers; of these about 75,000 patients
were selected for death. In January of 1940, Dr. Karl Brandt, Dr.
Leonardo Conti (the successor to Dr. Gerhard Wagner) and others tested
a novel means of mass killing --- the administration of carbon monoxide
in a gas chamber disguised as a shower. This "experiment" was conducted
at the psychiatric hospital at Brandenburg much to the satisfaction of
Viktor Brack who insisted that future gassings be carried out under
physician supervision, according to the motto: "Syringes are a matter
for doctors." The experience at Brandenburg was replicated at five
other psychiatric hospitals throughout Germany each of which was
outfitted with a gas chamber. At the Hadamar facility, the
extermination of the 10,000th patient was celebrated with a small
ceremony and a bottle of beer for each of the hospital staff.(21)



Euthanasia found its way to the concentration camps under the program
code-named 14f13. 14f referred to the code number for the Inspectorate
of Concentration Camps, and 13 referred to the "special treatment of
sick and frail prisoners." The program was devised by Himmler and
Philip Bouhler and was designed to rid the camps of sick prisoners.
Prisoners were selected for "special treatment" by roving T4 doctors,
who then transferred those selected to the remaining gassing centers at
the psychiatric hospitals. The euthanasia program thus perfected the
means and methods for mass murder; its personnel and techniques were
soon to be used for the killing of millions in "the final solution of
the Jewish question."(26)

The links between the 14f13 operation and the Holocaust are obvious.
Both were designed to rid German society of the unwanted, and the
euthanasia program had demonstrated the feasibility of mass killing to
accomplish this goal. It is not surprising then, that when the decision
was made to murder all European Jews and other unwanted ethnic
minorities, the gas chambers at the psychiatric institutions were
disassembled and reconstructed at Treblinka, Auschwitz, and the other
death camps. The personnel including the doctors and nurses who ran the
killing apparatus at the psychiatric hospitals were transferred to the
death camps in the East. The first commandant of Treblinka was Dr.
Imfried Eberl who had demonstrated the feasibility of mass killing with
carbon monoxide at the psychiatric institution at Brandenburg.(27_

The euthanasia program was finally halted with the capitulation of Nazi
Germany in May 1945. In 1946, 26 doctors and public health officials
were prosecuted in Nuremberg in what has been termed the "Doctor's
Trial." While the murder of German civilians and other nationals under
the guise of euthanasia was part of the indictment, the prosecution
focused on the doctors' role in human experimentation. This tactic was
chosen because survivors of the medical experiments were available to
give testimony. In charging the physicians with euthanasia, the
Nuremberg prosecutors argued that the doctors had violated the
international rules of warfare, the Hague Convention and the German
Criminal Code. In the prosecution's view, the Hitler decree of
September 1, 1939 did not have the force of law, and violated the
German Criminal Code. Furthermore, the prosecutors argued that Dr.
Brandt et al had violated even the Binding-Hoche criteria for
euthanasia which held that the "mentally dead person" in lacking a will
to live could be put to death for the good of the state. According to
the prosecution, the coercion and deception that permeated every phase
of the euthanasia program would have been unnecessary had the victims
or their families desired a "mercy death."(28)

The doctor-defendants never expressed any regret, nor did they deny
their actions. They argued that they were following lawful orders and
that in the euthanasia program they were motivated by the desire "to
solve an old medical problem." In addition, the physicians argued that
in a time of struggle for national survival, exceptions to ordinary
moral standards were justified. The doctors argued that it was
justifiable to call upon individuals to forfeit their lives for the
sake of national preservation. The Nuremberg tribunal did not respond
to each argument set forth by the defendants but rather responded with
the Nuremberg Code which emphasized the primacy of the informed,
voluntary consent of the patient in governing physician behavior. The
Code rejected the utilitarian argument that the few may be
involuntarily sacrificed for the benefit of the many.(29)

**********

Footnotes:
[15. Noakes J. and Pridham G. (editors). Documents on Nazism,
1919-1945. New York, New York, Viking Press, 1975, p. 1002.
16. Proctor R. Racial Hygiene: Medicine under the Nazis. Cambridge,
Harvard University Press, 1988, pp. 95-117.
19. Lifton R. The Nazi Doctors. New York, New York, Basic Books, 1986,
pp. 51-62.]

*************

21. Ibid., pp. 1018-1021.
22. Proctor, op. cit., pp. 191-194.
23. Noakes and Pridham, op. cit., pp. 1034-1035.
24. Ibid., p. 1038.
25. Ibid., p. 1039.
26. Ibid., pp. 1043-1046.
27. Lifton, op. cit., pp. 123-124.
28. Trials of War Criminals before the Nuremburg Military Tribunals
Under Control Law No. 10. Vol. 1. Washington, D.C., U.S. Government
Printing Office, 1949, pp. 804-818.
29. Caplan A. The Doctor's Trial and Analogies to the Holocaust in
Contemporary Bioethical Debates. in Annas G. and Grodin M. (editors).
The Nazi Doctors and the Nuremberg Code. New York, Oxford University
Press, 1992, pp. 265-270.



Regards,
Eugene Holman
> =================================================
> Phillips
> Mark Weber claims
> it was
> done by lethal injection and, pending convincing evidence to the contrary,
> I'll
> continue to go along with that.
> 
> ====================================

Like most Holocaust deniers, he is telling you a half truth. As you
read above, euthanasia was done by a variety of means. Lethal
injections were just one of several means, which included gassing and
starvation.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:01 EDT 2001
Article: 974874 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Supersedes: <141020012112291599%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:31:40 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3BC9C581.8344F50C@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:



>> > b. The methodical program of combing the towns and smaller cities
of Latvia
> > and Lithuania for, and summary mass shootings of, Jews by Einsatzgruppe A,
> > documented in the Jager Report, during the latter half of 1941.
> >
> > c. The well-planned shootings of Jews in larger cities such as Riga
> > (25,000), Daugavpils (13,000), Rezekne (1,700), Liepaja (5,000), Ventspils
> > (1,000), Shiauliai (3,000), Kaunas (3,600), Kiev (33,000), Serniki (600),
> > Kamanets-Podolski (23,600), Dnepropetrovsk (1,000+), Karkhov (10,000 !=
> > 20,000), Odessa (23,000), Pinsk (16,200), and Minsk (19,000 + 9,000),
> > Brest-Litovsk (6,000 - 10,000), Zhitomir (18,000), Poniatowa (14,000),
> > Mogivel (3,700), Kostopol (5,000), Bialystok (3,000), Trawniki (12,000),
> > Janow Podlaski (2,500), among others, often involving a process lasting
> > several weeks during which Jews were declared a criminal element,
> > identified, sought out and arrested, dispossessed of all property and
> > assets, ghettoized, exploited locally for slave labor, and ultimately
> > marched to a specially chosen killing site which had been supplied with
> > sufficiant ammunition, ready dug graves, and the requisite number of
> > sharpshooters, and killed, with the immovable property and assets seized
> > from them catalogued and then sold or auctioned off, and te movable
> > property shipped to Germany.
> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> We are here talking about one thing and one thing only: were there mass
> executions by
> gassing at Auschwitz and similar centres in Poland. Please confine yourself
> to facts
> that bear specifically an that question.
> 
> ==========================================

You are out of order here, Richard. In normal debate and intellectual
discourse one proceeds from the general to the specific, from the
causes to the consequences. The public shootings, only a small number
of which are mentioned above, were done in broad daylight with little
or no effort made to conceal them. They were carried out systematically
enough for the conclusion to be drawn that they were part of a plan,
not random events. They demonstrate that the Nazis were systematically
killing Jews. Thus, calling attention to these systematic and public
shootings of Jews bears specifically on the question. You don't have a
consequence without a cause, and the gas chambers and extermination
centers were a direct methodological and public-relations consequence
of these mass-shootings. 

It is of the utmost importance to emphasize that mass shootings carried
out by the Einsatzkommandos, which were occurring on the eastern front
on a daily basis from the day Germany invaded the USSR, abruptly stop
during December 1941 and January 1942 when the first gas
chamber-equipped extermination center, Chelmno, is opened for business
on December 6, 1941, and Jews begin to be deported to Auschwitz and
gassed in facilities built there in January, 1942. Before this, in
September, 1941, Soviet POWs had been gassed at Auschwitz-Stammlager.
Traces of cyanide compounds were found by the Cracow team on the walls
of Block 13 where the first such gassing occurred. The existence of
extermination centers is a direct consequence of the logistical
difficulties and public relations disasters the Nazis experienced with
mass shootings.

> > f. The evidence in the form of two standing and fully operational gas
> > chambers at Majdanek, one with clear evidence of thousands of desperate
> > fingernail scratchings on the wall.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Fully operational TODAY? Can you produce any disinherested scientific reports
> on
> them?
> 
> =========================================

The CO gas chamber at Majdanek has a large oven and a pipe next to it (
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/hol-pix/majd-lib2.jpg
). It doesn't take a battery of scientific tests to see that anyone
trapped in there when the oven was on would die of CO poisoning. 

The HCN gas chamber at Majdanek looks harmless enough (
http://www.rudyfoto.com/hol/maj-gaschamber.html ), but, once again,
anyone trapped in this place and forced to breathe the gas in
concentrations that caused the visible blue stainings on the walls
would surely die. Some of the details of the Majdanek gas chambers,
including the a photograph of the pipe used to introduce the lethal
agent, are in the series of photographs at
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/maidanek/1998-keren-images.html.

According to the website of the Majdanek concentration camp museum:

Source: http://www.majdanek.pl/en/oboz.htm


    The concentration camp in Lublin, commonly referred to as Majdanek,
was the second largest Nazi camp of this type in Europe after
Auschwitz. During his visit in Lublin in the second half of 1941,
Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer-SS (Reich SS Leader) and Chief of the
German Police, decided that a camp should be established here. Himmler
issued the order in which we read: "Reichsführer's SS proxy shall
organize a concentration camp for 25-50 thousand prisoners with the
purpose of employing them in SS and police construction workshops".

The Enclosure of the prisoners fields    Himmler entrusted Odil
Globocnik, Head of SS and Chief of Police for the Lublin District, with
the task of carrying out this order. At first the official name of the
camp was Kriegsgefangenenlager der Waffen SS in Lublin /Camp for
Prisoners of War in Lublin/, then the camp's name was changed to
Konzentrationslager der Waffen SS in Lublin /Concentration Camp in
Lublin/. In reality, the camp was also used for many other purposes,
serving at the same time as a concentration camp and a camp for
prisoners of war, but also as a death camp, labor camp, penal camp, and
transitory camp.
Majdanek was located on the southeastern suburbs of Lublin, near the
route from Lublin to ZamoÊç and Lvov. The location of the site was
strictly connected with political and economic plans of the Nazis for
the Lublin region. According to these plans camp prisoners were to be
used as free labor force. In their long-term plans Majdanek was
supposed to occupy the area of over 500 ha and house 250 000 people at
the same time. Military defeats caused that the Nazis had to restrict
their plans in a considerable way. Ultimately, 280 different objects
were built on the area of 270 ha: prisoners' barracks, production and
administrative buildings, workshops, devices and equipment used for
extermination: gas chambers, crematoria, security equipment: fencing,
watch towers and watch rooms. The central part of the camp consisted of
barracks for prisoners which were situated in five prisoner areas. The
barracks could house 25 000 people at the same time. The Lublin camp
was operational from October 1941 to July 1944 and was under the
supervision of chief SS authorities, their local counterparts, and the
Concentration Camp Inspectorate which was a part of the Chief SS Office
for Economy and Administration, headed by Oswald Pohl. Management of
the camp was entrusted to Commandant who was chosen out of senior SS
officers. The scarcity of source materials does not allow to establish
the exact number of camp prisoners and its victims. It is estimated
that over 300 000 people of 50 different nationalities "passed through"
Majdanek. The majority of prisoners were Jews /over 40%/ and Poles
/about 35%/. Other major nationalities included: Belorussians,
Ukrainians, Russians, Germans, Austrians, French, Italians and Dutch.
The composition of prisoners with regard to age was very diverse.
The majority /about 70%/ of prisoners were young men and women in their
prime, aged 20-25. As compared to other concentration camps, Majdanek
had the highest percentage of children up to 15 years old /about 6%/,
out of which infants constituted 1.1%. Prisoners in Majdanek
represented different religions, political ideas, professions, and
social statuses. Beside people imprisoned because of racial reasons,
the second largest group was composed of participants of resistance
movements. The other characteristic feature of the camp in Lublin was
that many of its prisoners were peasants. It is estimated that over 230
000 human lives were lost in Majdanek, including about 100 000 Jews.
Over 50% out of the above number died because of primitive living
conditions, hunger, diseases and overstrenuous labor. The others died
in executions and gas chambers. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:02 EDT 2001
Article: 975126 of alt.revisionism
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:45:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3BCA242F.920A746@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Unfortunately, so far as I am aware, your "conclusive" evidence does not
> include
> any of the following:
> 
> 1) Credible forensic examinations proving that the victims did indeed die of
> gassing
> 
> 2) Construction drawings of the chambers in sufficient detail (with
> accompanying
> manuals) that conclusively prove the purpose of the structures.
> 
> 3) Scientific reports by experts from Allied countries.
> 
> If you have any of these things, please let me know.
> 
> Pending such enlightenment, I will continue to assume that Mark Weber is no
> more
> "full of shit" than any human organism prior to defecation.
> 
> ===================================================================

Mark Weber makes the same mistake in thinking that you do: arguing from
specifics to general. Yes, Weber is quite correct in claimiong that
some euthanasia victims were killed by lethal injection. He is
incorrect and mendacious when he omits that other methods, including
gassing and starvation, were also used. The fact that injections were
used does not exclude the fact that it was only one of several
modalities of mass murder.


Source: http://www.ippnw.org/MGS/V2N3Seidelman.html


The third major step toward racial purification after the sterilization
and racial laws was the program of medical murder known as the Aktion
T-4 "euthanasia" campaign, which began in 1940 and continued until late
1941. Under the T-4 program, which included a number of professors, an
itinerant team of "euthanasia experts" traveled to mental institutions
to select patients for killing. The ill fated patients were transported
to one of six designated killing centers where they were killed in gas
chambers disguised as showers [15]. The turning on of the gas was a
designated medical act assigned to a physician [16]. Disposal of the
remains usually took place in coal-fired cremation ovens [17]. 

The T-4 program was but one of a number of medical killing programs
that both preceded and succeeded that operation [16,18]. At
Eglfing-Haar, in Bavaria, children were killed by starvation and/or the
purposeful overdose of medication such as barbiturates and opiates as
part of the so-called "wild" euthanasia program. SS members were
provided with educational sessions by the staff of Eglfing-Haar where
the killing continued until virtually the end of the war. In other
institutions patients were killed by injection as well as by starvation
or overdose of medication. The T-4 apparatus was used for killing
inmates of concentration camps before those camps had acquired their
own gas chambers and crematoria. 


Footnotes:
...
15. Burleigh M, Wippermann W. The racial state: Germany 1933-1945.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1991.
16. Burleigh M. Death and deliverance: "Euthanasia" in Germany
1900-1945.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1994.
17. "Verlegt nach Hadamar." Die geschichte einer
NS-"euthanasie"-anstalt. Eine Ausstellung des Landeswohlfahrtsverbandes
Hessen Historische Schriftenreihe des Landeswohlfahrtsverbande Hessen,
Kataloge Band 2. Kassel: Eigenverlag des LWV Hessen. 1991.
...




Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergDoct
orTrial.html


9. Between September 1939 and April 1945 the defendants Karl Brandt,
Blome, Brack, and Hoven unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed
war crimes, as defined by Article II of Control Council Law No. 10, in
that they were principals in, accessories to, ordered, abetted, took a
consenting part in, and were connected with plans and enterprises
involving the execution of the so-called "euthanasia" program of the
German Reich in the course of which the defendants herein murdered
hundreds of thousands of human beings, including nationals of
German-occupied countries. This program involved the systematic and
secret execution of the aged, insane, incurably ill, of deformed
children, and other persons, by gas, lethal injections, and diverse
other means in nursing homes, hospitals, and asylums. Such persons were
regarded as "useless eaters" and a burden to the German war machine.
The relatives of these victims were informed that they died from
natural causes, such as heart failure. German doctors involved in the
"euthanasia" program were also sent to Eastern occupied countries to
assist in the mass extermination of Jews.



Source: http://www.doew.at/projekte/holocaust/shoahengl/euth/euth.html

Jews as victims of Nazi euthanasia

*  Aktion "T4" 1940/41
*  The "14 f 13" programme
*  Deportations 1942
*  Child euthanasia 1940-1945
*  From euthanasia to Holocaust


Aktion "T4" 1940/41

Before the decision made in the second half of 1941 about the "Final
solution of the Jewish question", mental patients of Jewish origin -
like the majority of mentally and physically disabled people in the
German Reich - had become the victims of the first big systematic
program of mass murder carried out by the Nazi regime. In the course of
the Aktion "T4" (named after the address of the Berlin Euthanasia
Headquarters at Tiergartenstraße 4) carried out in 1940/41, Jewish
hospital patients were registered, selected, and deported to
extermination institutions, and gassed to death with carbon monoxide.
In Austria, where Jews at that time were already ghettoized in special
mass housing in Vienna, the Wagner von Jauregg Mental Hospital "Am
Steinhof" functioned as a collection place. In the summer of 1940
patients were brought to the Hartheim extermination institution; some
of them were brought there via the Niedernhart sanatorium. The monthly
report of the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde Vienna dated July 1940
states that 400 Jews had been deported from "Steinhof." In the course
of the year 1940 some reports of deaths and some urns of ashes reached
Vienna. Inquiries about the fate of these people were dryly answered
with the words "transferred by ministerial order to a hospital that has
not been identified." The cause and the place of death were
systematically forged in documents relating to the patients deaths and
in explanations given to relatives or authorities. Many death
certificates relating to deported Jewish psychiatric patients were
issued by "the registry office, Chelm, Lublin district", but in
actuality they had been fabricated in the Berlin "T4" headquarters,
brought to Lublin by a messenger, and mailed from there.



The "14 f 13" programme

>From the spring of 1941 the "euthanasia" programme was extended to the
concentration camps and executed under the name "Special Treatment 14 f
13", whereby the file mark "f 14" in the camp administration stood for
death, and the following number indicated the circumstances of the
inmate's death. On the orders of Heinrich Himmler experts of the "T
4"-programme were sent to the concentration camps, to select prisoners
incapable of work, who were then murdered in the "euthanasia"
institutions (Hartheim, Bernburg, Sonnenstein). These experts often
based their decisions on political and racial, rather than "medical"
criteria. It was mainly Jewish inmates that were affected by this
programme, without consideration being paid to the state of their
health. Thus for example, the social scientist Dr. Käthe Leichter was
murdered with poison gas in the Bernburg/Saale murder institution.


Deportations 1942

After Hitler had broken off the Aktion "T4" on August 24, 1941, Jewish
patients who were still in hospital were included in the deportation
transports of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA.) The transport of
the remaining Jewish patients from "Steinhof" by the Zentralstelle für
jüdische Auswanderung in Vienna took place on August 30 and 31, 1942.
The transports in September and October 1942 went to Theresienstadt or
Maly Trostinec, where almost all deportees died.


Child euthanasia 1940-1945

In the course of the Nazi child euthanasia from 1940 to 1945 "deformed"
children up to three years of age and later up to 17 years of age were
murdered in "Kinderfachabteilungen" (special child units), and were
also subjected to "medical" research. The murder of at least four
Jewish children and youths (between two and fifteen years of age) has
been proven to have taken place within the "Am Spiegelgrund" clinic set
up within the system of the mental institution "Am Steinhof." 


>From euthanasia to Holocaust

Euthanasia affected Jews not only as murder of mentally and physically
handicapped Jewish people. Euthanasia paved the way to the Holocaust in
an organisational, personal and technical ways. After the
discontinuation of the Aktion "T4" on August 24, 1941, the staff of the
extermination institutions were transferred to the "Aktion Reinhard",
the murder of the Jews in the "Generalgouvernment", run by Odilo
Globocnik. The methods of killing, particularly the use of poison gas,
the construction of fixed gas chambers and the deportation transports
to just a few places of extermination, were taken over in a modified
fashion. Staff from the Hartheim extermination institution were given
important functions in the extermination camps on Polish territory:
Like this the head of the Hartheim administration, Captain Christian
Wirth became camp commander of Belzec, his deputy Franz Stangl became
commander of Sobibor and Treblinka, Franz Reichleitner became commander
of Sobibor, and Gustav Wagner the deputy commander of Sobibor. Finally,
Dr. Irmfried Eberl, an Austrian doctor who was promoted from director
of the euthanasia institutions in Brandenburg/Havel and Bernburg/Saale
to be the first commander of Treblinka extermination camp also deserves
to be mentioned in this context. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:02 EDT 2001
Article: 975187 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raising Cain
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:31:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3BC9C091.C60B9CDF@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> You have neither "been there" nor have you "done that."
> 
> (1) You have never convincingly refuted the claims of several competent
> authorities
> that the alleged gas chambers could not possibly have been used for such a
> purpose.

Those "competent authorities" were incompetent. Zyklon B was invented
to enable cyanide to be used in normal rooms without "gas chamber
safety features", and hundreds of people die of CO poisoning in normal
rooms, once again without "gas chamber safety features" every year. The
normal use of Zyklon B as well as the fact that lethal CO accidents
occur in normal rooms serves as proof that the structures that other
evidence clearly indicates were used as gas chambers could have been
used as such.


> (2) You have tried to tell us --with absolutely no supporting experimental
> data--
> that the miniscule concentrations found on the walls of you alleged execution
> chamber are consistent with their having been subjected to exposure
> sufficient to
> have killed 1M persons.

Nobody has ever said that 1M persons were ever executed in a single gas
chamber. What has been said is that tens and hundreds of thousands of
people were gassed in gas chambers at several extermination centers and
euthanasia centers in France, Germany and occupied Poland using CO,
which leaves no residue, as well as low concentrations of HCN, which
leaves concentrations which, after half a century's exposure to the
elements, are low but clearly detectable. This was the case in 1945
when the first forensic examinations were made, in 1988, when
Leuchter's examination was made, and in 1994, when the Cracow research
was published.

> 
> Your complaints about "senile lying bigots" may afford you some emotional
> satisfaction but do not in the slightest degree support your claim.
> 
> =============================================

They do: they show that you are incapable of understanding the
evidence. Your restatement of the case as a claim that the exposure was
"sufficient to kill 1M people" shows that you do not understand what
you are talking about. Gassing took place at several places over a
course of four years. Even at Auschwitz gassings took place at two
locations at Auschwitz-Stammlager, as well as at six locations, only
one of which survives in a form that it can be studied properly, at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:02 EDT 2001
Article: 975216 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Supersedes: <151020011455475323%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:07:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3BCA82AA.E5B4D8B3@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" <

[Concerning the use of mass execution gas chambers within the framework
of the T-4 euthanasia program as the first widely attested instiation
of Nazi extermination by poison gas.]

> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Which sources and how do they prove this?
> 
> ======================================
>

That Nazi physicians filmed and photographed some of the people they
were gassing, and they wrote the experiments up as medical reports. The
photographs and films they made was presented as evidence at the
post-war Doctors' Trial.

Sources going into this aspect of the euthanasia program include:


1. Götz, Aly, Peter Chroust, and Christian Pross. Cleansing the
Fatherland: Nazi Medicine and Racial Hygiene. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins
University Press, 1994. (R 853 .H8 A42 1994)
 
A collection of essays by medical historians. Includes seldom published
information from primary sources, such as diary entries and letters
>from doctors involved in Nazi medical experiments.



2. Bernadac, Christian. Devil's Doctors: Medical Experiments on Human
Subjects in the Concentration Camps. Geneva: Ferni Publishing House,
1978. (D 804 .G4 B3913 1978)
 
Based upon testimonies of survivors of Nazi medical experimentation.
Describes in detail the activities of a handful of the most notorious
SS-physicians. Includes several photographs and a bibliography.  



3. International Auschwitz Committee. Nazi Medicine: Doctors, Victims,
and Medicine in Auschwitz. New York: Howard Fertig, 1986. (DD 256.8
.M45 N285 1986)
 
A report featuring eyewitness accounts and primary source materials
regarding experimentation on inmates at Auschwitz-Birkenau.



4. Klee, Ernst. Auschwitz, die NS-Medizin und ihre Opfer. Frankfurt am
Main: S. Fischer, 1997. (D 805.5 .A96 K54 1997)
 
A thorough account of Nazi experimentation on inmates at various
concentration camps. Includes several photographs.



5. Koch, Peter-Ferdinand. Menschenversuche: die tödlichen Experimente
deutscher Ärzte. München: Piper, 1996. (R 853 .H8 K64 1996)
 
Documents medical experimentation and euthanasia in Germany and Austria
>from the late nineteenth century to modern times, with a special
emphasis on the period 1933 to 1945. Tracks the post-War careers and
activities of doctors who participated in experimentation on human
beings during the Third Reich. Includes numerous illustrations and
photographs.



If you ever want to do some _serious_ reading on this topic, I suggest
that you get a hold of two of the standard books on the subject in
English, Henry Friedlander's _The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From
Euthanasia to the Final Solution_, and Michael Burleigh's _Death and
Deliverance: "Euthanasia" in Germany, c.1900-1945_. 

Here is a review of both of them:

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsh3.htm



Henry Friedlander. The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the
Final Solution. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1995.
xxiii + 421 pp. Bibliographical references and index. $34.95 (cloth),
ISBN 0-8078-2208-6. 

Michael Burleigh. Death and Deliverance: "Euthanasia" in Germany,
c.1900-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994. xvii + 382
pp. Illustrations, bibliographical references, index. $59.95 (cloth),
ISBN 0-521-41613-2; $19.95 (paper), ISBN 0-521-47769-7. 

Reviewed by Alan E. Steinweis, University of Nebraska, Lincoln.
Published by H-German (September, 1996) 


One of the salient features of Holocaust historiography in recent years
has been a divergence between an essentially Judeocentric approach that
pays relatively little attention to the non-Jewish victims of Nazi
Germany, and an approach that endeavors to contextualize the
persecution and murder of the Jews as a part of a broader Nazi program
of racial purification and territorial aggrandizement. The two studies
under review fall into the latter category. Both posit a close
connection, ideologically and even organizationally, between the
notorious Nazi "euthanasia" policy and the "Final Solution" of the
"Jewish Question." But, even more significantly, both works place their
primary focus on Nazi eugenics measures targeted at the disabled,
emphasizing the point that Nazi "euthanasia" can no longer be
understood as a mere preface to the Final Solution. The murder of the
disabled was, according to these books, an integral part of the
Holocaust. Nazi "euthanasia" was a human tragedy of immense proportions
and terrifying cruelty, one that ought to prove instructive to a
society such as ours in which efficiency is often placed before human
compassion, and in which hereditarian notions of human worth and
achievement are enjoying renewed legitimacy. 

The attention focused on Daniel J. Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing
Executioners in recent months has generated what we can only hope will
prove to be a productive debate about the ideological and social
origins of the Holocaust. One very unfortunate result of the Goldhagen
debate, however, has been the relative neglect of another highly
consequential book that deals with the same fundamental question of
Holocaust origins, although from a much different perspective, and in a
far more sober, balanced, and intellectually responsible manner. Henry
Friedlander's Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final
Solution is not only the most formidable study to date of the Nazi
regime's murder of the disabled; it also is one of the most compelling
statements in favor of an expansive conceptualization of the Holocaust.


Most Holocaust historiography treats the Nazi "euthanasia" program as a
step along the path to the Final Solution, or in Friedlander's
formulation, as a prologue to the Holocaust rather than as an actual
chapter of that event. Friedlander, himself a survivor of Auschwitz who
is a professor of Judaic Studies at Brooklyn College, maintains that
Nazi policy aimed at the physical destruction of three groups: Jews,
Gypsies, and the disabled. The genocide of all three grew out of the
same racist biomedical vision, although the timetables, modalities, and
dimensions of the murder of each group differed significantly. The
contrast between this view and that of Goldhagen could not be more
stark. Goldhagen, whose concern is almost exclusively on the war
against the Jews, radically disassociates the murder of the disabled
>from that of the Jews in order to buttress his argument about the
universality and intensity of German anti-Semitism; he repeatedly
points out that the "euthanasia," based on a cold, calculated
biomedical vision, generated protests from the German population,
whereas the killing of the Jews, based on anti-Semitism, produced no
such reaction. 

Instead of emphasizing the role of anti-Semitism as the engine of
official Nazi policy, and as the personal motive of those individuals
who carried out genocidal policy on a daily basis, Friedlander does
indeed underscore the centrality of eugenics and a biomedical
sensibility. But it would be unfair to suggest that Friedlander
discounts the importance of anti-Semitism. This point must be
emphasized in view of the accusation, which can be heard nowadays at
Holocaust and German studies conferences, that anti-Semitism has been
written out of the Holocaust by scholars who seek to interpret the
genocide in a more universal framework. Friedlander makes clear early
in the book that racial anti-Semitism was an integral component of the
eugenicism that had come to hold sway in Germany by 1933. Throughout
his study, Friedlander traces how the evolution of Nazi anti-Jewish
policy was intertwined with eugenicist measures targeted at "Aryan"
Germans, at Poles, and at Gypsies (evidence entirely ignored by
Goldhagen). He also discusses the fate of individual Jews who fell
victim to the "euthanasia" program, an often overlooked dimension of
the Jewish experience under Nazi rule. 

In one short opening chapter Friedlander recapitulates the development
of eugenicist and racist thinking before 1933, a subject that has
already been adequately examined by several scholars. Friedlander moves
quickly through the 1933-1939 period in a second chapter, devoting the
remaining twelve chapters to an extremely thorough account of events
during the war. Some readers might be disappointed that the
sterilization measures of the 1930s are not examined in greater depth,
but a detailed analysis of this earlier phase is not Friedlander's
intention. 

Readers who have kept up with the field will be familiar with the key
events of the story Friedlander tells: the initiation of the
"children's euthanasia" program, the expansion of that program to
encompass adults, Hitler's personal role in making key decisions, the
structure and procedures of T-4, the killing "pause" of 1941, the
subsequent continuation of the systematic murder outside the notorious
killing centers, the transfer of personnel and know-how from the
"euthanasia" operation to the Final Solution, and so forth. In several
respects, however, the book does present heretofore unfamiliar
material. The book's analysis of the "pause" of 1941 stands as the most
authoritative explanation of how the killing was continued under
altered circumstances rather than halted. The chapter on "Killing
Handicapped Jews" should prove most illuminating even to erudite
students of the Jewish dimension of the Holocaust. Friedlander's
account of how the killing centers functioned conveys a great deal of
new, often gut-wrenching detail, gleaned from judicial records. We
should be particularly grateful to the author for his effort to convey
the humanity and individuality of the victims themselves, qualities
that most often tend to become lost in academic studies of Nazis and
their crimes. 

This is a remarkably well-researched book. Friedlander has examined
materials from over two dozen archives and has made extensive use of
judicial records from roughly three dozen courts and state prosecutors.
This massive original research has been synthesized into a work that
also makes very effective use of previous studies of the subject by
Ernst Klee, Benno Mueller-Hill, Goetz Aly, and many others. Its
original contributions notwithstanding, the brilliance of the book lies
not in the disclosure of shocking revelations or dramatic new evidence,
but rather in the combination of rich detail and moral force. The
latter quality is especially worthy of note, for here is an example of
a compelling, at times gripping, work of scholarship that does not
sacrifice precision or intellectual rigor. As it assumes its rightful
place as a standard work, let us hope that The Origins of Nazi Genocide
attains the wide audience it deserves. 

Michael Burleigh's Death and Deliverance is a less polished, although
altogether worthwhile study that covers much of the same ground.
Burleigh's account of the years before 1939, and especially of the
period 1933-1939, is fuller than Friedlander's. Burleigh also deals
more extensively with developments after 1945. Burleigh's primary
source research base, though considerably narrower than Friedlander's,
is impressive in its own right. 

Burleigh is less successful than Friedlander in his attempts to move
back and forth between the levels of policy formulation and
implementation. This is particularly problematic when Burleigh neglects
to undertake a patient, careful analysis of an interpretive issue that
is central to Friedlander's study, namely the connection between
"euthanasia" and the broader program of Nazi genocide. "On the ground"
is where Burleigh places his emphasis, and it must be said that he does
excel at evoking the mood of the time and at reconstructing the rich
texture of specific events. Numerous photographs and extended
quotations from primary sources endow many sections of the book with a
documentary quality, which students especially might appreciate,
although scholars who are better versed in the material might consider
such passages insufficiently digested. 

Burleigh gives considerably more attention than does Friedlander to the
Nazi regime's efforts to legitimize eugenics measures within German
society. Particularly useful is a long chapter called "Selling Murder:
The Killing Films of the Third Reich," a title identical to that of a
fine documentary film produced by Burleigh on this very subject. This
chapter analyzes at length the notorious Ich klage an, as one might
expect, but also describes a host of other films that have remained
obscure. I have found this chapter quite useful in my own teaching. I
tend to devote considerable class time to German propaganda efforts of
this sort, which students find compelling, deeply troubling, and
frighteningly relevant in our own age of mass manipulation. 





Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:03 EDT 2001
Article: 975255 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:12:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 42
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In article <3BCAEDC9.906272F4@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Steve Wolk is clearly a man who esteems certainty and abhors uncertainty. He
> seems to be accusing me of not pretending to certainty when I do not have a
> basis for doing so. I plead guilty to the charge. But do we LIVE in a word of
> certainty, a world of hard facts. Well there are things like the speed of
> light
> and the Pythagorean Theorem; but, apart from them, we live for the most part
> in
> a world of uncertainty, of guess, of inference, of hypothesis, of controversy,
> of confusion, of doubt, of likelihood and unlikelihood, of mendacity, and of
> passion. THAT is the world we live in. And that is why, with the rarest of
> possible exceptions, no one on this NG ever has his views changed.
> 
> ====================================================================

Do you believe the story, propagated by the US and other governments,
which you think are all a bunch of liars, and the media, which you
think is controlled by mendacious Jews, that the four airliners that
crashed on September 11 were hijacked by terrorists of Middle Eastern
origin?

There is far less evidence that that account of the events of September
11 is so, than there is for Nazi gas chambers. There is, for example,
no physical evidence whatsoever that these Middle Eastern gentlemen
ever even sat in the cockpits - everything is based on circumstantial
evidence and reports of alleged calls from cellular phones, which
everyone knows you are not allowed to use on airplanes - and there
never will be. Yet you are willing to take the word of a government and
media that you mistrust and hate, and call for measures to check and
follow the movements of all people in the US who are of Middle Eastern
or "Islamic" origin, whatever that means. On the other hand, all the
forensic, demographic, testimonial, documentary, photographic,
cinematographic, and architectural evidence to the contrary, you remain
a skeptic with respect to Nazi gas chambers. Should I laugh or cry?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:03 EDT 2001
Article: 975266 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Catholics
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:59:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 84
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In article <3BCAF33D.7B0E09A4@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

>  (2)When did the residents of Rome switch from Latin to Italian? The
> > two are related but not identical.
> >
> > Joe Bruno
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have myself been very curious about (2). Is Spain, Latin got mixed with
> Arabic to become
> Spanish. In France (I suspect) it got mixed with Gaelic to become French. Yet
> what did it get
> "mixed with" to become Italian.
> 
> One guess I might make is that the written language may have gradually
> transitioned over to the
> way ordinary people pronounced words.
> =========================================
>
Italian is the modern form of Latin, its linear and unbroken
descendant. havinbg studied Latin, Italian, and the other major Romance
languages I can state that only Italian gives the impression of being
"bad Latin" (cf. plural formation: Spanish el año > los años. French
l'anne /lan/, les annes /lezan/ 'the year', based on the Latin
accusative plural, but Latin annus > anni; Italian anno > anni, based
on the Latin nominative plural. The others are different languages. The
Ebonics controversy serves as a good example. Latin became fossilized
during the early Middle Ages as a medium for written communication.
Even during the classical period there was a split between the spoken
("vulgar") Latin of everyday life, and the written language used by teh
small but slowly increasing group of people who were literate. If you
can imagine a society which writes and learns standard English but
speaks an increasingly Ebonicized English, the technical name for such
a situation is diglossia and it is reality in Greece, the
German-speaking parts of Switzerland, much of the Arabic speaking
world, Papua New Guinea (Tok Pisin vs. English) , and Haiti (Haitian
Creole vs. French), you can understand that a time will eventually come
when they will chuck the fossilized inherited code for something closer
to what average folks actually speak.

Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese, and Galician are the modern versions of
Vulgar Latin imposed on, and influenced by, people who spoke
non-Indo-European Basques, were conquered by the Germanic-speaking
Gotths, and then by Arabic-speaking Moors. French and Provençal, in
turn, are the products of vVulgar Latin being imposed on a population
which was first Celtic (with a slight Basque admixture), and then
received linguistic and cultural influences from three Germanic waves
of invasion: the East Germanic Wisigoths, the West Germanic Franks, and
the North Germnaic Danes (= Normans). Italy was invaded by various
Germanic tribes, including the Visigoths and the Longobardians, and
traces of Germanic influence are still evident, particularly in
Northern Italian dialects. Romanian, the odd-man out among the Romance
languages. Romanian has more in common with Italian than with the the
other Romance languages, although there are some interesting parallels
between Romanian and Portuguese as outliers. There was a continuum in
Europe between northern Italy, where ithe indigenous language is
Friulian, the Romantsch-speaking parts of Switzerland, and the
Romance-speaking popualtion of Pannonia until the Magyars arrived and
cut the Vallachians (> Romanians) off from the rest of the
Romance-speaking world. Romanian retains the grammatical structure of
Latin better than any other Romance language, but its vocabulary has
numerous borrowings from the languages of its neighbors, Slavic and
Hungarian.
 
> =========================================
Phillips
> 
> If anyone can give me a more definitive answer to this I'd like to hear it.
> 
> =========================================

Dante Alighieri (1265-1321) is generally regarded as the first one to
write works in Latin "Ebonics", Medieval Italian, which were taken
seriously enough for influential people to suggest abandoning the
fossilized writen standard, Latin, for something closer to the language
of the people. the first inscriptions in a transitional language
between what we consider to be Latin and what we would consider to be
Old or Nascent Italian date from a few centuries before.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:03 EDT 2001
Article: 975282 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Catholics
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:47:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
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In article <4bc3e2e1.0110151029.24632c02@posting.google.com>,
joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:

> I know that Spanish, Italian and French are all derivatives of Latin.
> FYI, the Slavic languages such as Russian, Serbo-croatian, Ukranian
> and Polish are all derivatives of an archaic tongue known as Old
> Church Slavonic. 

Wrong!

Old Church Slavonic, also known as Old Bulgarian, was the liturgical
language of the early Eastern orthodox church. 

The Slavic languages,including Old Bulgarian, are the linear
descendants of a reconstructed language called Proto-Slavic. This was
one of the last indo-European langauges to break with the original
speech community, and the languages that resulted from it have
strikingly different histories. Czech and Slovak, for example, are the
result of various waves of imposition of Slavic speech on ancient
Celtic, Romance, and Germanic speakers, Russian has a clear Finno-Ugric
substratum, Ukrainian and particularly Bulgariana nd Macedonian have
clear Turkic substrata. The Eastern (Russian, Belarussian, Ukrainian),
Western (Polish, Kashubian, Pomorianian, Sorbian, Czech, Slovak), and
southern (Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Macednian, Bulgarian) Slavic
languages are far closer to each other than their counterparts in the
Grmanic and Romance languages, but the differences between them, too,
are consequences of an ancient (relatively) unified language having
spread to areas and being accepted by or imposed upon people who were
quite different linguistically and culturally from the bearers of the
older language.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:04 EDT 2001
Article: 975284 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:58:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <151020012158103106%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3BCB2B89.55F1CF11@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> The hi-jacking was obviously done by SOMEBODY. If you have an alternative
> theory (ie
> not done by Middle Eastern Muslims), by all means let's hear it and we will
> then
> compare the respective likelihoods.
> 
> ======================================

I'm looking at this from a purely epistemological standpoint.

There is absolutely no physical or other forensic evidence that the
hijackings were done by Middle Eastern Muslims. The claim that they
were the work Middle Eastern Muslims is a hypothesis, one spread by
agents and media which you have stated many times that you detest,
based solely on circumstantial evidence.

There is far more evidence for Nazi mass execution gas chambers,
including physical evidence found by supporters and would-be deniers of
such facilities. Additionally, people representing the perpetrators,
the suppliers of the lethal agent, and the victims have all
independently testified that such facilities existed. Additionally,
photographs and films taken by the Nazis as parts of their medical
"experiments" have been presented and accepted by courts of law as
evidence of thee deeds. You have photoraphic evience of the airplanes
crashing or havign crashed. You have no evidence, except circumstantial
evidence, that Middle Eastern Muslims were at the controls when they
crashed.

If you accept a circumstantial evidence-based story spread by media
that you detest and lacking all physical evidence, why do you reject a
story supported by physical evidence, corroberated by several
independent sources, and accepted by courts of law in several
countries, some of which you detest more than others?

Epistemologically yours,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:04 EDT 2001
Article: 975468 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Catholics
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:45:06 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 97
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In article <4bc3e2e1.0110151401.529fa102@posting.google.com>,
joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:

>

> 
>  OK. The person who told me this was a translator for a public agency
> in San Diego and fluent in several  languages. I assumed she knew what
> she was talking about. You speak of slavic languages being "imposed"
> on the Russians and Ukranians. Who imposed this language and how did
> they do this? 

Scratch a Russian and underneath you are likely to find a Chuvash (e.g.
Yuri Gagarin), a Mari, a Mordvin, a Komi, a Tartar, a Karelian, any one
of dozens of the pre-Slavic nationalities that inhabited the great
expanses of European Russia and northern Eurasia before the Slavs
expanded northwards and westwards. The Russification of indigenous
peoples is still very much an issue in Karelia, among the peoples of
the Baltic countries, and among the Vepsians, to name but a few well
known cases.

> Was it a result of conquest(by the Mongols-Genghis
> Khan's mob) What were the Russians speaking before this new language
> was imposed on them?

A good case study is St. Petersburg. The city was built on territory
conquered from Sweden at the beginning of the 18th century by Peter the
Great and inhabited mostly by Finns. Historically, the area to the
immediate south east of St. Peteresburg is known historically as
Ingermanland. Its indigenous Finnish population was not expelled or
exterminated, but rather they were gradually Russified. During the
period of Stalinism, and especially after the 1939-40 conflict between
Finland and the USSR, speaking Finnish in public became a punishable
offense. Now the language has come out of the closet, but it is a
dialectal, archaic, illiterate form of Finnish. Most Ingrian Finns have
Russian as their first language and tend to self-identify as Russians.


> (Was it the Viking language-Danish perhaps-the
> Vikings did give Russia it's name(Rus).

Correct. The same word is found in the Swedish placename Roslagen, the
province in which Stockholm is located, and in the Finnish word for
Sweden, Ruotsi (from earlier *Rootsi, cf. Estonian Rootsi).

> 
> One last question(s): Why did the Poles give up the Cyrillic alphabet?

They never had it, except among some groups in the borderlands who were
converted to the Orthodox faith. Whether Slavic languages use the
Cyrillic or the Roman alphabet depends on whether the Orthodox or the
Catholic church Christianized them. Thus the former principal language
of Yugoslavia, Serbo-Croat, is written in Cyrillic in Serbia, but in
Latin in Croatia. Since the country split, Serbian and Croation have
been following distinct paths of development, but they are not much
more different than British and American English, except for the
alphabet, of course.

> Don't most Slavic languages use Cyrillic like the Russians do?

No. The west Slavic languages, Czech, Polish, Slovak, Sorbian,
Kashubian, and Pomoranian, the latter two virtually extinct, all use
Latin, as do the two south Slavic languages Slovene and Croatian. The
other three south Slavic languages, Serbian, Macedonian, and Bulgarian,
use Cyrillic, as do the three east Slavic languages, Russian,
Ukrainian, and Belarussian.

> Why is
> the Greek alphabet so similar to the Russian alphabet?

The Cyrillic (not Russian) alphabet was invented for the language
called Old Bulgarian or Old Church Slavic during the ninth century by
two Greek missionaries, St. Cyril and St. Methodius. Interestingly, the
Bulgarians still celebrate a national holiday on May 24 called the 'The
Day of Bulgarian education, culture anbd Slavic script'
(http://www.icos.bas.bg/press.holidays.html) in honor of this. Using
the normal principle for alphabet construction, they mapped Slavic
sounds onto the Greek alphabet as it was pronounced then, e.g. the
letters for /z/, /l/, /m/, /s/, /p/, and /r/ are clearly Greek. When
that didn't work they used the Hebrew alphabet, e.g. the letters for
/sh/, /shch/, /ts/, and /ch/. When that didn't work they modified
letters, e.g. /b/ (the Greek beta at that time was pronounced /v/, so
they modified to get a letter for the /b/ sound), /zh/, which is
obviously a modified /sh/, and /ya/, the backwards 'R', is really a
modified /A/. The alphabet was subsequently reformed during the 18th
century to make it more angular and similar to the Latin alphabet.

Many non-Slavic indigenous languages of Russia, such as Finno-Ugric
Mordvin and Komi, Altaic Tartar, etc., use the Cyrillic alphabet. The
Romance langauge Moldavian was also written in Cyrillic letters until
1991 when they decided to Latinize. Outside of Russia Cyrillic is used
to write the languages of most of the languages of the former Soviet
republics, including Turkic Uzbek and Turkmenian, and Indo-Aryan
Tadzkik. Mongolian is also written in Cyrillic.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:04 EDT 2001
Article: 975616 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Doom on Bin Laden
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:04:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4bc3e2e1.0110160837.51242e8@posting.google.com>,
joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:

> President Bush has already included the SEALS in his anti-terrorist
> planning. Since SEAL operations are clandestine and top-secret, it is
> entirely possible they are already in Afghanistan looking for the
> Bearded Psycho. The SEALS went into Iraq during the Gulf War and no
> one but the President, Defense Secretary, and Joint Chiefs of staff
> knew about it until the war was over. The British special forces are
> known as SAS(Special Air Service). The USA also has other special
> forces available to fight a clandestine war-Army Rangers and Green
> Berets. Rangers are specially trained for mountain
> fighting-Afghanistan would be just their cup of tea and their ops are
> also kept a secret until their mission is complete.

Did they take out Sadaam Hussein? No.

If they take out bin Laden will it make any difference+ Yes. It will
make him a martyr.

Addressing the issues that led to the *retaliatory attack* on the USA
on September will do a lot more good in the longer term than wasting
time and effort trophy hunting. Bin Laden reputedly has 47 children.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:05 EDT 2001
Article: 975631 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Catholics
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:51:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 55
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In article <4bc3e2e1.0110160750.71722176@posting.google.com>,
joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:

> 
>  I have two more questions about Viking history. I once heard of a
> language called Old Norse, which is supposed to be what the Vikings
> spoke before they separated into Danes, Norwegians and Swedes.Have you
> ever heard of it?

Of course I've heard of it. Old Norse played a very important role in
the history of English. Everyday words such as sky, skin, husband,
sister, little, knife, skirt, skull, they, their, there, are are some
of the Old Norse words that were borrowed into English after the
Vikings invaded the island and conquered the northen part of England
during the 8th century ( see e.g.
http://www.cusd.claremont.edu/~ccandy/methods.html ). The speakers of
Old Norse gradually assimilated into the English nation, but not
without leaving a remarkable trace on the language. 

A good case study is the problem of West Germanic singular feminine and
pluran personal pronouns. For reasons that we do not understand, the
singular feminine and universal plural perosnal pronouns are fully or
almost identical in West Germanic langauges:  Old English, a West
Germanic language, 'she is' was hêo is, and 'they are' was hîe
sindon/bêon, cf. modern Dutch zij is 'she is', zij zijn 'they are',
Modern German sie ist 'she is', sie sind 'they are', Modern (West)
Frisian hja is 'she is', hja binne 'they are', Yiddish zi iz 'she is',
zey zaynen 'they are'. In Old Norse it was their (M)/thaer (F)/thau (N)
eru. The Old English 3pl personal pronoun hîe and 1sg F pronoun hêo
were thus quite similar, cf. German sie ist 'she is', sie sind 'they
are', Dutch zij is 'she is', zij zijn 'they are', (West) Frisian hja is
'she is', hja binne 'they are', Yiddish zi 'she', zey 'they', and old
Norse provided English with a crutch to correct this lingusitic
anomaly.

> 
> When did the Vikings convert from their worship of Odin to
> Christianity? Who brought Christianity to Scandinavia?

That's too complex a question to answer off the cuff. Mnay observers of
Scandinavia, yours truly included, would say that paganism is still
alive and strong in Scandinavia. In any case, by the year 1100 the
Swedes were actively engaged in crusades in both Finland (where I am
now) and the Baltics. This was not so much a matter of spreading
serious religion as it was of creating a pretext for exacting tribute
in the form of church taxes. The Scandianvian countries have always
been large and sparsely populated. There is little social control, and
as long as a man paid his tribute (taxes to the church and the
government supporting it) nobody gave a double damn what he believed.
The social history of religion here is thus quite different from that
in far more densely populated Central Europe, where the church demanded
both minds and money. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Oct 16 21:02:05 EDT 2001
Article: 975632 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Supersedes: <161020011855485877%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:05:49 +0300
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In article <3BCB44F6.81CB450C@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> You weary me.
> 
> You would like to phrase the hijacking question in the terms: Eithet the
> Middle
> eastern Muslims (hereafter MEMs) did it or they didn't do it and you demand I
> produce evidence that they did. But that is NOT the question. The question is:
> either MEMs did it or some other persons did it, because SOMEBODY did it

How do you even know that? It could have been a case of malfunctioning
or simultaneous heart attacks, which was interpreted by the passengers
as a hijacking. After all, several of the alleged hijackers were
trained pilots, and they could have been called to the cockpit ("Is
there a pilot on the plane?") to help, with their running to the rescue
being misinterpreted as a hijacking by the passengers. When the
stewardess spilled the bottle of catsup she was holding already
hysterical passengers thought that her throat had been slit. And
boxcovers, do you realize that it takes a far higher amount of strength
than the average 5" 5' MEM can muster to kill people than it does
to open boxes with a box-cutter. Do you really think that eyewitnesses,
their lives threatened, are going to be reliable? Do you really think
that five puny MEM could overpower an airplane with 60 people, most of
them burly, corn-fed Americanos, on it with a few boxcutters as their
only weapons? It is to laugh.

You realize that I'm joshing. The quality newspapers, though, are
careful to continue to write 'the alleged hijackers', so there is more
than a grain of reason in what I just wrote: you are believing a story
that is based on what you would normally regard as tainted or
unreliable evidence and related by media or agents that you have always
mistrusted.

As other people have already written, what I'm really protesting
against, to the point of wearying you, for which I offer my apologies,
is your different standards of evidence.

You are willing to take the word of a few dozen hysterical
eyewitnesses, relayed second-hand by people who received the calls and
were obviously in a state of emotional turmoil (injecting two levels of
unreliability), as well as information spread by the government and
media (both of which you despise and distrust) without a shred of
corroborrating forensic evidence, as the basis for your knowledge (or
belief) that the airplabnes were indeed hijacked and that MEMs are
behind the hijackings and consequent attack.

On the other hand, you are _unwilling_ to accept, even given a mountain
of much more varied and objective forensic, photographic, documentary,
judicial, military, demographic, cultural, political, architectural,
diplomatic, and testimonial evidence that the Holocaust did occur;
evidence provided by governments you like and dislike, even in speeches
made by Hitler and Himmler, stating in no uncertain terms that the Jews
were being 'liquidated' (liquidiert), executed ('exekutiert'), and
exterminated ('ausgerottet'), that the Holocaust occurred. Not only
that, your rejection of this mound of evidence is based primarily upon
a botched report by an unqualified and provably incompetent (Leuchter,
whose only field of expertise is history, claimed erroneously to have
carried out the first forensic examination of the Auschwitz gas
chambers, when in truth the first ones were carried out in 1945, with
the results being used as evidence at the trial of Rudolf Höss in 1947)
engineer wannabe who thinks that it takes far higher concentrations of
cyanide to kill people than it does to kill vermin, that gas chambers
must have safety features even though he admits that rooms without such
features show traces of having been fumigated with lethal
concentrations of HCN, and attributes the indisputable presence of HCN
compounds on the walls of said rooms to an undocumented putative
fumigation which took place a year before they were built. Note that
this report has never been accepted by any court in the world or
historian (not even by the likes of David Irving, who once, much to his
later regret, bit it hook, line, and sinker, any more) as having any
evidentiary value.

I find your different standards totally astounding.


> As for your gassing theory, you certainly have a case; indeed, you have a
> strong
> case. Its only probsem is that it does not stand up under close and careful
> scrutiny.
> 
> =========================================

Yes it does, and it stands head and shoulders above any alternative
theory.

Forensic, testimonial, historical, photographic, cinematographic, and
architectural evidence all indicate that the Nazis were experts in the
use of poison gas, and that they used it as an instrument of mass
murder within the T-4 euthanasia program as well as within the
Holocaust.

In particular, pphotographs and movies of gassings were taken by
physicians working within the euthanasia program as well as at the
'trial' gassing camp, Chelmno, and these were used as evidence at
post-war trials. None of the people tried at the Doctors' Trial denied
their having participated in T-4, or that they had killed people by
several modalities, including gassing.

With respect to the ruins of gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau and at
Auschwitz-Stammlager, anyone trying to deny the historicity of these
structures once having once been gas chambers has to offer an
alternative explanation for the presence of cyanide residues, half a
century later, on their walls and ventilation systems, as well as for
all the evidence that indicates that they were used in this manner. 
The fact that cyanide was used in the premises indicates that the
people who used it there knew how to contain it. Knowing how to use and
contain it in a given structure is necessary and sufficient for that
structure to have served as a gas trap, a simple, low-tech gas chamber,
for anyone the users were able to entice into and lock up in it. Given
that the testimony of those who were there as eyewitness, perpetrators,
staff, and administrators all agree independently that they were ndeed
used as gas chambers, not once, not twice, but over a period from 1941
(when Holocaust gassings were begun Chelmno) until 1945 (when the last
gassings of babies and children were conducted Ravensbrück in
conjunction with camp liquidation), I cannot see how "close and careful
scrutiny" can refute such a torrent of evidence.

Fred Leuchter's alternative explanation is quinquepartite:
a. it takes higher concentrations of cyanide to kill people than it
does to kill lice;
b. using cyanide in concentrations lethal to humans requires elaborate
architectural safety precautions;
c. the formation and retention of cyanide compounds is not affected in
the short or long term by exposure to water or the presence of carbon
dioxide during the formation process;
d. the fumigation chambers and the ruins of the gas chambers were
environments that can be directly compared;
e. the cyanide compounds found on the walls and in the ventilation
systems in the ruins of former gas chambers in 1945, in 1988, and in
1994 are the consequences of an undocumented gassing during the 1942
typhus epidemic.

Claim (a) is demonstrably false, as anyone with even a smattering of
chemistry would know; claim (b) is demonstrably false, since Zyklon-B
was expressly designed to make it possible to use the high
concentrations of cyanide required to kill vermin in normal dwellings
lacking such features; claims (c) and (d) are demonstrably false, as
demonstrated by the experiments run by the Cracow group and published
in their 1994 report; claim (e) is demonstrably false because the
construction of Krema II did not begin until early 1943.

Leuchter's façade comes crashing down like a WTC tower when subjected
even to cursory and superficial scrutiny. He has no alternative
explanation for the presence of cyanide compounds on the walls and in
the ventilation systems of structures that other evidence uniquivocally
indicates were once used as mass execution gas chambers.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:44 EDT 2001
Article: 975849 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Doom on Bin Laden
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:06:15 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <171020010906150928%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3BCB7DBD.B846562F@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> I hear that top US industrialists, bankers, etc have put together a "war
> chest" of $1B to hire "hit" squads to "take out" Mr. Bin Laden: Navy
> SEALS,  British SOS, Israeli Mossad, the best and the brightest, the
> leanest and the meanest, the world's greatest experts in turning
> sentient beings into Men of Extinction.
> 
> If I were Mr. Bin Laden, the thought of the US Army stumbling in the
> mountains wouldn't worry me over much, but the thought of having those
> crazies after me would. Most especially when they have all the money in
> the world to buy informers with.
> 
> Doom on you, BL.

A signed order from Usama bin Laden to implement the attacks is yet to
be produced.  He is only linked to them by innuendo, rumor, and
circumstantial evidence, kind of like Hitler to the Holocaust.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:44 EDT 2001
Article: 975853 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
Supersedes: <171020010923272979%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:29:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 51
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In article <3BCCC662.1FACBF43@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I imagine that human remains of some sort were taken from the crashed planes.
> 
> =======================

You imagine, but you don't know. You have no evidence to back up what
you imagine. As a matter of fact as seen in the videos of the WTC
impacts and photograph's of the Pentagon and PA crashes, the crashed
planes were partially or full pulverized on impact and then incinerated
by the jet fuel, so there is a possibility that there are no
recognizable human remains from them.

> > > Do you REALLY believe that "thousands" of "victims" exist?
> > > Where are the BODIES? ProDUCE them, Mr. Phillips.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> We have seen photos of firemen carting away body bags.
> 
> ============================================

Just wait a minute here. Rudolf Vrba claimed that he had "witnessed"
gassings because he had been at Auschwitz long enough to have an
informed idea of what was going on at Auschwitz-Birkenau, had witnessed
the lines of people, mostly women, children, and elderly who had not
been not selected to enter the camp as slave workers waiting their turn
to be 'deloused', never to be seen again, had seen the medical
orderlies pour the tins of Zyklon-B into the flues, and had seen and
smelled the smoke coming from the crematorium chimney. When cross
examined at the Zundel trial in 1985 he had to admit that he had never
actually "eyewitnessed" a gassing, but that he had used his common
sense and knowledge of the camp and its routines to conclude that on
the basis of what he had seen of the the input to and output from the
"black boxes" that were the crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the
conclusion that mass gassings were taking place inside was the best
logical conclusion consistent with the evidence. You are in the same
situation. You have seen what you claim to be body bags, but you have
no idea what is actually in them. If we stick to the stringent
standards of evidence that you normally require, your conclusions about
the contents of the body bags have precisely the same evidentiary value
as Rudolf Vrba's eyewitness testimony: none.

Epistemologically yours,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:45 EDT 2001
Article: 975914 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Doom on Bin Laden
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:56:06 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4bc3e2e1.0110170154.265926e8@posting.google.com>,
joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:

> You are assuming that terrorists put their communications in writing
> like military bureaucrats do. Terrorists are criminals and murderers
> just like the figures of organized crime are. The people involved in
> organized crime, like Al Capone and Lucky Luciano, do everything
> possible to conceal their tracks. They do all their transactions in
> cash(no checks that leave a paper trail). Most of their orders to kill
> are given verbally-one on one in secrecy to minimize the number of
> witnesses. They hide the bodies in many cases to frustrate the
> authorities' attempts to bring them to justice. Jimmy Hoffa's body has
> never been found.

As I wrote, kind of like Hitler's links to the Holocaust.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:45 EDT 2001
Article: 976001 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance
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In article <3BCD8CD0.61C25528@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
>

> =====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) I'm taking the not-unreasonable position that photos that ape.ared in
> every
> major American newspaper bearing the caption: firemen carrying body bags are
> better
> evidence than the "testimony" of a proven liar.
> 
> (2) I'm  further taking the posotion that the events of Sept 11 did indeed
> happen
> as described. The only other possibility is that the whole thing is a gigantic
> hoax. I rule that out because it could be demolished in a second by any
> reporter
> going to the scene and reporting: "Nonsense. The WTC towers are still standing as
> before."
> 
> ==========================================
> 
> ======================================================

There is no denying the factuality of the attacks on the WTC and the
Pentagon, and the crash of an airplane, allegedly hijacked, in
Pennsylvania.

What is problematic is:
a. the evidence that the airplanes were hijacked;
b. the fact that some 6,500 people are missing, but the remains of only
some 500 have been found.
c. the connection to Usama bin Laden

The evidence that the airplanes were hijacked is based largely on
conjecture and eyewitness accounts made and received, allegedly, under
exceptionally dire emotional stress. The conjectural part includes
strong documentary and eyewitness evidence that some of the MEM's on
the airplanes had attended flight school, and weaker evidence that they
were able to overcome the crew and the passengers, who outnumbered them
more than 10 to 1, with weapons alleged to be boxcutters. MEM's who
would commit suicide in a hijacked airplane are ruthless to the
extreme. A boxcutter, having metal components and thus likely to set
off metal detectors at security clearance, is not the kind of concealed
weapon you would expect such a ruthless person to be carrying. Broken
glass, or plastic bags, would have stood a much better chance of being
introduced to the aircraft undetected; even the in-flight earphones
could have been easily used as an effective weapon. face it: boxcutters
is dumb just like diesel motors, alleged to have been used at Belzec,
is dumb. As far as I have been able to ascertain, no boxcutters have
been found in the debris of any of the crashes, so the only evidence we
have on this is unreliable eyewitness testimony filtered through two
layers of emotionalism. This eyewitness testimony is unreliable: it was
allegedly relayed to loved-ones, informing them that they were on
hijacked airplanes that were about to be crashed. As far as I know, no
recordings of such conversations have been recorded or presented, so
we are forced to rely on the testimony of emotionally distraught and
possibly self-aggrandizing ("my dead son, the judo champ and hero, beat
up a hijacker single-handed and prevented the aircraft from crashing
into the White House") eyewitnesses.

Photographs have been shown in major newspapers of grim-faced firemen
carrying bodybags contining what is alleged to be human remains from
the WTC site. The contents of the bags have never been shown, nor has
any forensic examination conducted by a disinterest outside source been
published showing that the contents of these bags are indeed human
remains rather than, say, organic waste from one of the many
restaurants in the WTC buildings. Admittedly, human remains have been
found that have allowed for the identification of some 500 people, but
that is a far cry from 6,500. It is unlikely that autopsies to
ascertain the cause of death have been or could be performed on these
remains.

Finally, blame for this attack has been placed at the foot of Usama bin
Laden and his organization, al Qaera. Nevertheless, the evidence is all
circumstantial. Orders to commit what appears to have been a complex
and well-coordinated action were allegedly passed on by secret codes
embedded in computer graphics, or by the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink"
method. No written orders signed by bin Laden to hijack the airplanes 
and commit the atrocities of September 11 have come to light as of yet.

As you should recognize from some of the expressions I have been using,
evidence for the events of September 11 is quite similar to much of the
evidence for the Holocaust, the difference being, with respect to the
latter, more in quantity than in quality. The events of September
11 evidently involved at most a few dozen dedicated men, and they
appear to have developed over a five-year timeframe,  involving
operatives in Saudi Arabia, Afghnistan, Iraq, German, the UK,
and the USA. There is a paper trail, and the investigative agencies
were able to use hindsight to reconstruct it. It is much the same with
the Holocaust. It stretched over six years, involved more than fifteen
countries, and generated an immense and reconstructable paper trail.
Unlike the events of September 11, not all Holocaust perpetrators died
or disappeared. Several were found, arrested, tried, and sentenced. In
conjunction with these trials, forensic, documentary, and testimonial
evidence was presented which could corroborate some of the evidence
generated by the reconstruction of the paper trail. With respect to the
Holocaust and the events of September 11, we are forced to draw
conclusions based upon the available evidence, much of which is
circumstantial, but almost all of which points in the same direction
and justifies the same conclusions. There is no rational reason to deny
the Holocaust but believe that 19 MEM's hijacked for airplanes and
crashed them on September 11. The evidence for the historical
factuality of each is of the same caliber.

Rudolf Vrba was less a "proven liar" than Fred Leuchter was. Vrba
escaped from Auschwitz in 1944 and helped alert the world, including
the US War Department and the Vatican, to what was going on there. What
he claimed in the Auschwitz Protocols is consistent with evidence
gathered from other sources. In the 1988 Zundel trial in Toronto he was
aggressively cross examined about a book he had subsequently published
concerning his "eyewitness account" of gassing at Auschwitz. Pressed,
he admitted that he had never witnessed an actual gassing, but rather
that his account was based on conversations with Auschwitz inmates, his
observation that people entered the 'bathhouses', but were never seen
again, that smoke, soot, and an umpleasant odor constantly billowed
>from the chimney, as well as on his having seen a medical orderly in a
gas mask dump tins of Zyklon-B into a flue. He never witnessed a
gassing because the only people to witness one were the medical
personnel supervising it who had access to the peephole. If Rudolf Vrba
is a liar for having claimed to have witnessed gassings, then anybody
who claims to have seen thousands of people killed when the airplanes
hit the WTC is also a liar. We can draw an informed conclusion, as Vrba
did concerning gassing, that the people above the floor where the
airplanes hit were incinerated. Since nobody actually observed this,
but can only infer it, such people must also be regarded as liars if we
follow your logic.

Vrba is thus guilty of having claimed as reality something which he
could really only have inferred on the basis of expert knowledge: he
obtained information by talking to members of the Sonderkommando, he
detected a pattern that the women, children and elderly folks lined up
in front of the bathhouses were never seen again, he saw gas-masked
personnel pouring Zyklon-B into a flue, and he smelled the smoke. Being
an eyewitness to an airplane crash into the WTC would, I would claim,
also allow a person to claim in good faith that he had just witnessed
the death of thousands of people even if, in actual fact, he had only
witnessed a situation which would allow anyone with general knowledge
to understand that the impact and the fireball would have killed all
the people on the airplane, since one would assume that there were
people on the airplane, as well as all of the people on the floor and
floors above of the impact and fireball. 


Such use of common sense is quite different from Fred Leuchter's
claims, which are based on stupidity or misinformation. Leuchter claims
that the undeniable presence of cyanide on the walls and in the
ventilators of the gas chamber at Krema II is the result of a single
fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic, even though camp records
indicate that construction of Krema II was begun only in early 1943. He
claims that the structures alleged to have been used as gas chambers
could not have been so used because they did not have engineering
safety features, nevertheless he claims that they could have been
fumigaged with Zyklon B, which means that they must have beeb capable
of containing gas in the concentrations needed fumigate a room to kill
lice. He also claims that it takes a far higher concentration of HCN to
kill lice than it does to kill people, when the reverse is true: people
will die in 5 minutes with a concentration of 300 ppm, while Zyklon-B
was designed to generate the 15,000 ppm and sustain it over the 15
hours needed to kill vermin. Leuchter also ignores the fact that
Zyklon-B was a commercial product specifically designed to be used by
specially trained personnel in normal rooms and premises lacking
engineering safety features, this lack being taken care of by the
functionally equivalent olfactory warning agent, an agent which the SS,
in violation of German legislation, had the manufacturers remove from
some of the consignments of the stuff being sent to Auschwitz for
"Jewish resettlement".

If your analysis of reality allows you to believe the stories, spread
by the Jewish-owned media that you hate and upheld by the government
which you despise, of a coordinated multiple hijacking carried out by
MEM armed with boxcutters that killed almost 7,000 people on orders
>from Usuma bin Laden, then it should allow you to believe the much
better attested stories, spread by the governments of several
countries, eyewitnesses, perpetrators, and a mountain of historical
documents, photographs, films, and other records, of a coordinated
attack on the Jews of Europe carried out by men armed with rifles, CO,
and HCN generated by Zyklon-B in specially built trenches outside of
many of the cities in Eastern Europe, as well as at forced labor camps
and specially-built extermination facilities in the parts of Europe
controlled by the Nazis between 1939 and 1945 on orders from Adolf
Hitler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Neinrich Himmler. If it does not, then
your lack of belief is not based on careful scrutiny of the facts. If
you are rational, you either believe both or reject both.

Epistemically yours,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:45 EDT 2001
Article: 976228 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Catholics
Supersedes: <171020011133025050%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:55:28 +0300
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In article <4bc3e2e1.0110161357.1abe813e@posting.google.com>,
joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:<161020012051232966%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>...
> > In article <4bc3e2e1.0110160750.71722176@posting.google.com>,
> > joebruno@indystart.com (Joe Bruno) wrote:
>
> 
>   Really! Are there any people who still practice the old Viking
> religion by worshipping the warrior god Odin? Do they still believe in
> Valhalla and the old Viking traditions like dying with sword in
> hand?(or is that just Hollywood stuff?)

Religion is pretty much a dead issue in the Nordic countries, which are
possibly the most secular societies in the world. Insofar as people
worship anything, it's the sun and the sky, the religion of
blue-domeism. The three biggest holidays are May Day, a start of spring
booze-up, Midsummer, a middle-of-summer booze-up, and the Night of the
Arts, an end-of summer booze-up. Most people go to church only a few
times in their lives, and once shortly afterwards: to get christened
(social pressure), to get confirmed (ditto), to get married (although
marriage is going out of style in this country where single women have
won the legal right to be artificially inseminated), and for their
funeral. here in Finland about 85% of the population belongs nominally
to the Lutheran church and pays a church tax, but churches are usually
all but empty on Sundays, with the exception of Christmas and Easter,
when they might be half full.

We also believe in hi-tech, social planning, and competitiveness:

Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1605000/1605273.stm



Finland has knocked the United States off its perch as the world's most
competitive economy, according to an annual ranking from the World
Economic Forum (WEF). 

"This country's remarkable turnaround over the past decade serves as
evidence of how quickly an economy's prospects can be transformed by
strong political institutions, a focus on technology, and sound
macroeconomic management," the report said. 

Over the past 10 years, Finland has not only become one of the world's
most efficient, tech-driven economies, but has invested effort and
money into social policy. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:46 EDT 2001
Article: 976287 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Iraq behind anthrax attacks
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:28:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <9qmhqv$8nf$1@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com>, "P2®" <0@0.com>
wrote:

> "tom moran"  wrote in message
> news:3bfcc4d4.168055717@newsproxy.pacificnet.net...
> >
> > Editorial in the New York Times, Oct. 18, 2001
> >
> > Who Made the Anthrax?
> >
> > By Richard Butler
> >
> > "Who Made the Anthrax" according to Butler?  Iraq, the enemy of the
> > Jews.
> 
> I think it is simply some anonymous nut out there doing it. If a country
> were behind it, it would seem to me they would expose Anthrax in a subway or
> stadium event to have maximum effect. 

They're playing a game, like the Sept. 11 terrorists did. If they had
delayed impacting the WTC by fifteen minutes, instead of hitting first
at 8:48, when people were still coming to work and other people stayed
away or were evacuated from tower 2 after the first bombing, they could
have killed three times as many people. Their purpose was to show that
they had the ability to strike, and that they could come on in force.
Showing strength rather than coming on full force is precisely what the
US is doing in Afghanistan right now. 

> Unless I am mistaken, dispite all
> these anthrax letters, only one person has died.

Wishful thinking. According to Richard Butler the anthrax sent to
senator Tom Daschle was a "highly potent strain" produced using
"sophisticated equipment" and the high degree of expertise that only a
well trained scientist with access to a well-equipped laboratory could
have produced ( http:TTedition.cnn.com/2001/US/10/17/butler.cnna ). It
is evidently not the same strain as earlier ones, but the anthrax sent
to Tom Brokaw and to the mailroom of the AM company in Florida check is
the same idiosyncracies (
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/18/anthrax/ ). The results
of further analyses are not yet conclusive, but we are obviously
dealing with someone or some individuals that are demonstrating that
they are in place and have attack capability. Only one person has died
so far only due to increased vigilance. The stuff sent to senator Tom
Daschle has resulted in several members of his staff testing positive
and . without the increased vigilance, it would have had catastrophic
consequences.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:46 EDT 2001
Article: 976861 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Phillips' system of epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Supersedes: <201020011429332798%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:50:51 +0300
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In article <171020012150303891%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
 wrote:

To Richard Phillips' claim that Auschwitz escapee Rudolf Vrba was "a
proven liar" because he claimed to have witnessed gassings at Auschwitz
when he actually only _inferred_ that he had witnessed gassings at
Auschwitz.

> Rudolf Vrba was less a "proven liar" than Fred Leuchter was. Vrba
> escaped from Auschwitz in 1944 and helped alert the world, including
> the US War Department and the Vatican, to what was going on there. What
> he claimed in the Auschwitz Protocols is consistent with evidence
> gathered from other sources. In the 1988 Zundel trial in Toronto he was
> aggressively cross examined about a book he had subsequently published
> concerning his "eyewitness account" of gassing at Auschwitz. Pressed,
> he admitted that he had never witnessed an actual gassing, but rather
> that his account was based on conversations with Auschwitz inmates, his
> observation that people entered the 'bathhouses', but were never seen
> again, that smoke, soot, and an umpleasant odor constantly billowed
> from the chimney, as well as on his having seen a medical orderly in a
> gas mask dump tins of Zyklon-B into a flue. He never witnessed a
> gassing because the only people to witness one were the medical
> personnel supervising it who had access to the peephole. If Rudolf Vrba
> is a liar for having claimed to have witnessed gassings, then anybody
> who claims to have seen thousands of people killed when the airplanes
> hit the WTC is also a liar. We can draw an informed conclusion, as Vrba
> did concerning gassing, that the people above the floor where the
> airplanes hit were incinerated. Since nobody actually observed this,
> but can only infer it, such people must also be regarded as liars if we
> follow your logic.
> 
> Vrba is thus guilty of having claimed as reality something which he
> could really only have inferred on the basis of expert knowledge: he
> obtained information by talking to members of the Sonderkommando, he
> detected a pattern that the women, children and elderly folks lined up
> in front of the bathhouses were never seen again, he saw gas-masked
> personnel pouring Zyklon-B into a flue, and he smelled the smoke. Being
> an eyewitness to an airplane crash into the WTC would, I would claim,
> also allow a person to claim in good faith that he had just witnessed
> the death of thousands of people even if, in actual fact, he had only
> witnessed a situation which would allow anyone with general knowledge
> to understand that the impact and the fireball would have killed all
> the people on the airplane, since one would assume that there were
> people on the airplane, as well as all of the people on the floor and
> floors above of the impact and fireball. 
> 
> 
> Such use of common sense is quite different from Fred Leuchter's
> claims, which are based on stupidity or misinformation. Leuchter claims
> that the undeniable presence of cyanide on the walls and in the
> ventilators of the gas chamber at Krema II is the result of a single
> fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic, even though camp records
> indicate that construction of Krema II was begun only in early 1943. He
> claims that the structures alleged to have been used as gas chambers
> could not have been so used because they did not have engineering
> safety features, nevertheless he claims that they could have been
> fumigated with Zyklon B, which means that they must have been capable
> of containing gas in the concentrations needed fumigate a room to kill
> lice. He also claims that it takes a far higher concentration of HCN to
> kill lice than it does to kill people, when the reverse is true: people
> will die in 5 minutes with a concentration of 300 ppm, while Zyklon-B
> was designed to generate the 15,000 ppm and sustain it over the 15
> hours needed to kill vermin. Leuchter also ignores the fact that
> Zyklon-B was a commercial product specifically designed to be used by
> specially trained personnel in normal rooms and premises lacking
> engineering safety features, this lack being taken care of by the
> functionally equivalent olfactory warning agent, an agent which the SS,
> in violation of German legislation, had the manufacturers remove from
> some of the consignments of the stuff being sent to Auschwitz for
> "Jewish resettlement".
> 
> If your analysis of reality allows you to believe the stories, spread
> by the Jewish-owned media that you hate and upheld by the government
> which you despise, of a coordinated multiple hijacking carried out by
> MEM armed with boxcutters that killed almost 7,000 people on orders
> from Usuma bin Laden, then it should allow you to believe the much
> better attested stories, spread by the governments of several
> countries, eyewitnesses, perpetrators, and a mountain of historical
> documents, photographs, films, and other records, of a coordinated
> attack on the Jews of Europe carried out by men armed with rifles, CO,
> and HCN generated by Zyklon-B in specially built trenches outside of
> many of the cities in Eastern Europe, as well as at forced labor camps
> and specially-built extermination facilities in the parts of Europe
> controlled by the Nazis between 1939 and 1945 on orders from Adolf
> Hitler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Neinrich Himmler. If it does not, then
> your lack of belief is not based on careful scrutiny of the facts. If
> you are rational, you either believe both or reject both.

Richard has refused to divulge how he can believe Fred Leuchter, a
proven liar, ignoramus, and charlatan, but call Rudolf Vrba a "proven
liar" on the basis of his having claimed to have "seen" something that
he witnessed and interpreted on the basis of available and reliable
evidence, or how he can believe that 19 MEM's hijacked for airplanes
and killed more than 5,000 people on September 11, when there are no
bodies and mostly eye-witness reports (nobody saw the people in the WTC
in the floors above the crash get incinerated or crushed, and the
number of bodies found after a month of searching is off by an order of
magnitude), but not that several thousand Nazis, often  assisted by
local accomplices requested or forced to participate, murdered
approximately six million Jewish civilians in more than fifteen
European countries between 1939 and 1945.

Epistemologically,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:46 EDT 2001
Article: 976932 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On racial profiling: Is Richard Phillips a MEM in drag?
Supersedes: <201020012037287922%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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On the basis of the virulently anti-free trade statements Richard
Phillips has repeatedly made in this forum, President Bush's statements
indicate that he would consider him to be a prime suspect with respect
to the events of September 11:

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/20/homepage/20CND-PREX.html


October 20, 2001

Bush Suggests Sept. 11 Attacks Were Aimed at World Markets

By DAVID E. SANGER

SHANGHAI, Oct. 20 ‹ President Bush declared today that the two American
soldiers killed in an accident on Friday ‹ the first major casualties
in South Asia ‹ "died in a cause that was just and was right," and he
told leaders of the 21 nations assembled here for an annual summit
meeting that the terrorists who struck the World Trade Center were
trying to bring about a collapse of world markets.

It is the first time he has suggested that the terrorist network Al
Qaeda was seeking to "shatter confidence in the world economic system."
He called on businesses around the world to join the fight against
terrorism, while acknowledging that new security measures and limits on
border crossings ran the risk of undermining world commerce. 

"Terrorists want to turn the openness of the global economy against
itself," he said today during a speech to chief executives, who hold
their own meetings in parallel with those of the government leaders.
"We must not let them."

The news of the accident in Pakistan that killed two soldiers came just
hours before the opening of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum
here, and it underscored how Mr. Bush was mixing coalition building
with long-distance management of the war. 

Mr. Bush slid past questions about the exact mission of American
Special Forces who were sent in and then taken out of Afghanistan
yesterday. The deaths occurred within a search and rescue team on call
in case the Afghanistan mission ran into trouble. "There will be
moments of sacrifice," Mr. Bush said late this morning, as he was about
to begin a meeting with Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan.
"We've seen two such examples today."

The White House announced today that Mr. Bush would leave Shanghai
about half a day earlier than scheduled, departing as soon as a meeting
with Russia's president, Vladimir V. Putin, ends on Sunday. That
meeting is designed to make diplomatic headway in the negotiations over
creating a new strategic relationship with Russia, which the war has
elevated to a new level of cooperation and intelligence sharing.

Though he got no specific endorsement for military strikes in
Afghanistan, including none from Mr. Putin, Mr. Bush could claim a
measure of diplomatic success here simply because he prevented any
major defections from his informal coalition. His goal was to win
general support for counterterrorism, and to make sure that no Asian
countries ‹ especially Indonesia and Malaysia with their large Muslim
populations ‹ peeled away from the West.

But there were several close calls, as country after country in the
region repeated that they wanted to keep civilian casualties to a
minimum and the military action in Afghanistan as short as possible.
After a meeting today between President Jiang Zemin of China and Mr.
Putin, the Russian president's spokesman, Aleksei Gromov, said, "The
leaders want an end to the military phase and to move to a political
settlement as soon as possible."

That is a near echo of what American officials often say to Russian
leaders about their military campaign in Chechnya. Mr. Bush, however,
warned that the war against terrorism may take years.

As several leaders express their reservations over civilian casualties,
Mr. Bush and his advisers have steadily escalated their verbal attacks
on Afghanistan's ruling Taliban. Today Mr. Bush said that "this
conflict is a fight to save the civilized world," from an evil regime
that starves its people and supports terrorists who live "on the hunted
margin of mankind." 

"By their hatred they have divorced themselves from the values that
define civilization itself." 

But while Mr. Bush talked almost exclusively about terrorism and its
state sponsors, the countries here had other matters in mind. Several
focused on the region's fast declining economy, a subject Mr. Bush
touched upon briefly today but, to the disappointment of several
countries here, had no strategy to reverse. 

In an interview on Friday, the president of the Philippines, Gloria
Macapagal Arroyo, said that in many ways Asia was in worse shape now
than it was in 1997 and 1998, at the height of the Asian economic
crisis. "At that time Washington was in a position to be big brother,"
she said. "Now Washington has its own problems." 

Mr. Bush's aides say he also came here to hear about economic concerns,
but it is clear that it is not his priority. None of his most
influential economic aides are here. Nor did he speak in any detail
about economics, even though there has been widespread discussion that
the world may require a coordinated response to a global economic
downturn.

In the interview, Mrs. Arroyo said that she has been involved in
discussions with Indonesia and Malaysia ‹ two overwhelmingly Islamic
states ‹ about creating a Southeast Asian subgroup of the antiterrorism
coalition that would "make us stronger in fighting terrorism in our
part of the world."

The three countries, and perhaps others, would share intelligence and
help identify terrorist cells. But the proposal appears designed in
part to create a group not under American domination, something that
the leaders of Malaysia and Indonesia worry about. That would allow
them to have an antiterror organization of their own at a time each is
fighting extremist groups.

Today Malaysia's prickly, outspoken president, Mahathir bin Mohamad,
met with Mr. Bush at his hotel in the center of Shanghai, and the
Malaysian leader used the occasion to complain that the war in
Afghanistan was taking innocent Afghan lives. Interestingly, the White
House allowed photographers to record the meeting, but banned the
reporters who usually ask a few questions at the outset of such of a
meeting. 

When Mr. Mahathir emerged to give a speech to business executives, the
same group Mr. Bush addressed earlier in the day, he did not mention
terrorism. But he did level a strong blast at the forces of economic
globalization that Mr. Bush had just hailed. 

"If I had a billion U.S. dollars, I suspect I too would be very
committed to a fully globalized world without any barriers and without
any constraints on what I can do with my money and how I can make even
more money," he said, mocking the group's commitment to free trade. 

Mr. Bush argued the opposite point ‹ that more globalization, more
openness, will help fight terrorism. "I'm here in Shanghai to assure
our friends and to inform our our foes that the progress of trade and
freedom will continue. The ties of culture and commerce will grow
stronger." 



Thinking about this causes me to laugh myself to sleep with all of the
unflagging enthusiasm of a Nebraska Sunday school superintendent on his
first trip to Europe who happens upon the Reeberbahn.


-- 
Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:46 EDT 2001
Article: 977426 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips's epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:28:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3BD36E95.EED1D8D9@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:
> 
> > In article <201020011429332798%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Richard has refused to divulge how he can believe Fred Leuchter, but
> > > call Rudolf Vrba a "proven liar",
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> THis might help:

Thanks. This was a very interesting and thought-provoking article. I'd
like to address only one issue in it for now, being pressed for time.



> A Sensational Turn of Events: The Leuchter Report
> 


> Would people one day remember the skepticism I had encountered, even from
> other Revisionists? Just before Fred Leuchter, Bill Armontrout had been on
> the witness stand, where he confirmed, in every detail, what I had said to
> the jury about the extreme difficulties of a homicidal gassing (not to be
> confused with a suicidal or accidental gassing).

This is where the logial difficulty enters the picture. Faurisson,
Leuchter, and Armontrout were all thinking in terms of American
execution practices and norms. From what is written above, it appears
that they admit that the conditions in the former gas chambers were
such that they could sustain "a suicidal or accidental gassing", and
that is the point I have been arguing all along. Execution gassings in
the USA use concentrations of HCN _ore than an rder of magnitude higher
than the minimum concentration necessary to kill people_. There is no
questioning the fact that the structures at Auschwitz-Birkenau would
have been able to contain the concentrations of HCN needed to replicate
"a suicidal or accidental gassing", indeed, Leuchter argues in his
report and Faurisson below that they would have been able to sustain
the much higher concentrations needed for fumigation, so this remark
about not confusing the two is a red herring: the structures at
Auschwitz-Birkenau were sufficient to withstand the low concentrations
of HCN that will kill people forced to breathe it.

In actual fact, they were capable of withstanding considerably higher
concentrations since, as we know, Zyklon-B, which had its own in-built
safety features and was only allowed to be used by specially trained
personnel, was designed to be used in normal premises lacking
engineering saftey features.



> 
> James Roth, director of a laboratory in Massachusetts, then testified on
> the analysis of the 32 samples, the origin of which he was unaware of: all
> the samples taken in the homicidal "gas chambers" contained a quantity of
> cyanide which was either unmeasurable or infinitesimal, while the sample
> from the disinfection gas chamber, taken for comparison's sake, contained
> an enormous amount of cyanide (the infinitesimal quantity detected in the
> former case can be explained by the fact that the supposed homicidal gas
> chambers were in fact morgues for preserving bodies; such morgues could
> have been occasionally disinfected with Zyklon B).

If they could withstand the high concentration of Zyklon B over the
long timeframe needed for fumigation, then they could withstand the
much lower concentrations of Zyklon B over the far shorter timeframe
needed to kill people in conditions similar to those of an accidental
or suicidal gassing. That's all I have been arguing, and Leuchter,
Faurisson, and evidently Bill Armontrout all agree. The ability to be
fumigated with HCN logically entails the ability to contain the much
lower concentrations of HCN needed to kill people. To express it in
Farisson's inimitable manner: If fumigations, then executions, that is
to say, no fumigation capability without execution capability.




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:47 EDT 2001
Article: 977465 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips's epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Supersedes: <221020011404500529%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:46:35 +0300
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In article <3BD36E95.EED1D8D9@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Phillips
> 
> It is a fact that on September 11, there were three crashes of airliners into
> buildings:
> 
> --One into WTC 1
> --Another into WTC 2
> --A third into the Pentagon
> 
> If you are disputing this please let us know.

Nolo contendere. I would just add that there was a fourth one that
crashed into a field in Pennsylvania which you are neglecting, but
which must be taken into account.

> 
> Now it is either the case that the planes were GUIDED into those buildings by
> human agency or that they were out of human control. (eg pilot, dead, drunk,
> or
> otherwise incapacitated). This would be a possibility worth considering  if
> there
> had been only one crash; if ceases to be a possibility when there were THREE
> crashes, all in the same day, and in every case into a structure of
> considerable
> political significance.

Once again, the fourth crash is significant. There is evidence that it
crashed in a field rather than into the White House, Camp David, or the
Capitol because the passengers had been made aware of the WTC bombings
and revolted.


> 
> Now IF I have succeeded in establishing that the planes were guided by some
> sort
> of human agency, there remains the question of whether the miscreants were on
> board the planes or whether evilly disposed persons on the ground had the
> special
> equipment and know-how that enabled them to remotely take over the aircrafts'
> guidance despite anything the pilots could do. THat is ruled out by two
> considerations:
> 
> (1) If a remote takeover of the planes' guidance systems had taken place,
> there
> would have been frantic radio messages from the pilots.

Not necessarily. The radios and transponders could have simply been
switched off. And the pilots could have had their throats slit early in
the game with those alleged box cutters. Some evidence indicates that
the hijackers of the fourth airplane were invited into the cockpit by
the pilots after having indicated that they were colleagues from
another airline.

> 
> (2) We know that, in the case of one of the planes, there was a struggle
> between
> passengers and terrorists.

Now you are 'lying' in the way that Vrba was 'lying'. The plane in
which there was alleged to have been a struggle did not crash into a
building, but went out of control and crashed in a field in
Pennsylvania. Indeed, it would be absurd to argue that a plane flying
out of control due to a fight between the passengers and terrorists
could have crashed into a target wuch as the WTC towers or the Pentagon
if it was flying without a pilot. A person who made a slip-up of the
type you just did would be thrown out of the courtroom pronto as an
unreliable witness giving testimony that was provably absurd.

As to the alleged struggle, we have some evidence in that direction. We
"know" that in the same way that Rudolf Vrba "knew" about gassings at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. It is the best and most probably possible
conclusion based on the available evidence. In Vrba's case in addition
to information given verbally by the Sonderkommando members, he had the
lines of children, the begasmasked medical orderly emptying cans of
Zyklon-B into the flue, the smoke, and the foul smelling odor on which
to base his judgements. In the case of the struggle we have reports of
conversations on cell phones that have not been recorded and cannot be
verified, given by distraught loved-ones. The airplane was destroyed to
such a degree that there is no physical evidence of a struggle. Thus,
all conclusions about a struggle aboard the plane that crashed in
Pennsylvania are based upon a reconstruction of events related to the
authorities from the people called by alleged eyewitnesses. This is
thus two testimonial layers removed from the event and has virtually
no evidentiary value.

> 
> I submit, therefore, that I have established beyond reasonable doubt that, in
> three of the four cases, the planes WERE taken over by on-board terrorists.

Your "proof" is no better and no worse than Rudolf Vrba's proof beyond
reasonable doubt that the regular lines of women, children, and elderly
people outside of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoria were, unknownst to
the people queuing up, waiting to enter a room, the door of which would
be locked and the ambient air of which would be altered so that it
contained a lethal concentration of HCN.

> 
> As for the deaths, let me say that both the number of offices in the
> buildings and
> the staffing levels for those offices are accurately known. I submit therefore
> that one of two things is the case:

The first crash took place at 8:48, twelve minutes before what would
have been the beginning of the working day for a substantial number of
the workers. Efforts to evacuate the second tower began immediately. It
is extremely difficult to say how many people were at work, how many in
the men's or ladies' room or the elevators preparing for or going to
work, and how many never entered the building. Nor should one forget
the possibility that more than a few people with heavy debts, a nagging
or abusive spouse, or some other personal problem could have used the
opportunity to "disappear".

> 
> (1) That the number of deaths is pretty close to what has been estimated ...
> or
> (2) That there was on that day --FOR those office buildings but  for no
> others-- a
> mass absenteeism of a sort never experienced before. Did we have any advance
> reason to suppose such a thing was going to take place. If it HAD taken place,
> then would there not have been dozens of people who afterwords reported that
> they
> had phoned or visited such and such office but were unable to transact their
> intended business because no one was there.
> 
> ====================================================

How much business in the WTC is transacted between 8:00 and 8:48 in the
morning? Although the building worked round the clock, most people
started work there between 8:00 and 10:00, with 9:00 and 9:30 being the
most common times to start work afaik. Tales of mass absenteeism appear
to be an urban legend. The attacks took place during the slack initial
hour of the business day when many people were still on their way to
work. Had it been the terrorists objective to kill as many people as
possible, they could have delayed their attack by a mere fifteen
minutes and surely killed at least twice as many people.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Oct 22 14:48:47 EDT 2001
Article: 977502 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips's epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:24:44 +0300
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In article <3BD445A5.455C26B7@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
>

> >
> > Not necessarily. The radios and transponders could have simply been
> > switched off. And the pilots could have had their throats slit early in
> > the game with those alleged box cutters.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I considered two possibilities:  (a) that there were hi-jackers on board
> (something
> you seem determined to disprove)

I'm not trying to disprove it. I'm merely stating that the evidence for
it is third hand (eyewitness to loved one, loved one to authorities)
and evidently contains two strata of emotional noise. If you do not
regard as proof based solely on eyewitness reports, documents, and
piles of ashes, then you have to be even more critical of proof based
on second-hand eyewitness reports and piles of ashes. My point is that
there is more and better evidence in favor of the Holocaust than there
is of the ailiners having been hijacked. I', not "dermined" to prove
other, rather I'm trying to make you understand that you are basing
your "knowledge" that the airplanes were hijacked on less and lower
quality evidence than you are basing your scepticism with regard to the
Holocaust.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> or (b) that the guidance was somehow taken
> over by
> remote ground-based equipment. If you wish to deny (b) and insist on (a)
> --hijackers
> on board-- that ssuits me very well.
> 
> =================================================

No. I don't want to deny anything. I'm with you all the way, except for
the factual mixup you had about there being three rather than four
planes, and that one of the three planes had a struggle in which the
pasengers overcame the pilots. The evidence is strongly supports that
*not* having happened. Airplanes don't crash broadside into buildings
when flying out of control.

> 
> > Some evidence indicates that
> > the hijackers of the fourth airplane were invited into the cockpit by
> > the pilots after having indicated that they were colleagues from
> > another airline.
> >
> > >
> > > (2) We know that, in the case of one of the planes, there was a struggle
> > > between
> > > passengers and terrorists.
> >
> > Now you are 'lying' in the way that Vrba was 'lying'.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The scene was described by passengers over their cell phones. That's good
> enough for
> me. Are you  perhaps arguing that it was all part of an anti-Muslim
> "conspiracy?"
> One the passengers were willing to sacrifice their lives for.
> 
> ===================================

The scene was described to Vrba by Sonderkommando members, in addition
to which he claims to have seen medical orderlies dumping tins of
Zyklon B into the flues which the Sonderkommandos had told him led into
the gas chambers. That was good enough for the US War Department and
the Vatican. 


> > The plane in
> > which there was alleged to have been a struggle did not crash into a
> > building, but went out of control and crashed in a field in
> > Pennsylvania. Indeed, it would be absurd to argue that a plane flying
> > out of control due to a fight between the passengers and terrorists
> > could have crashed into a target wuch as the WTC towers or the Pentagon
> > if it was flying without a pilot.
> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> How can I argue that when we know it is not true.
> 
> =============================
> 
> > A person who made a slip-up of the
> > type you just did would be thrown out of the courtroom pronto as an
> > unreliable witness giving testimony that was provably absurd.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What "slip-up?"
> 
> =====================

You don't remember what you wrote. Let me remind you:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
>
> > It is a fact that on September 11, there were three crashes of airliners into
> > buildings:
> >
> > --One into WTC 1
> > --Another into WTC 2
> > --A third into the Pentagon



> >
> > (2) We know that, in the case of one of the planes, there was a struggle
> > between passengers and terrorists.

Since you never mention the fourth plane, but talk about the three
planes more than once, what you write storngly implies that there is
evidence of a struggle having taken place on one of the three hijacked
planes that crashed into a building. There is no such evidence. There
is second-hand eyewitness testimony, and precious little else, of a
struggle having taken place abord the fourth plane, the one you don't
mention, that crashed into a field and disintegrated.

> >
> > As to the alleged struggle, we have some evidence in that direction. We
> > "know" that in the same way that Rudolf Vrba "knew" about gassings at
> > Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Vrba had nothing to go on but rumours that were going around the camp. He lied
> through his teeth in claiming to have witnessed those things first hand.

Vrba spoke with mebers of the Sonderkommando, he saw medical orderlies
in gas-masks emptying tins of Zyklon-B into the flues, he saw lines of
women, children, and elderly people, folks that obviosuly could not
stand up to the rigors of camp life, standing in fron of the Kremas on
a regular basis, only to disappear inside them, he saw and smelled the
smoke and the stench of burning flesh on a regular basis. Vrba was
clever enough at gathering information about the camp that he was able
to escape.



> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> In the case of the fourth plane we have
> 
> (a) On-the-spot accounts from passengers given over their cell phanes

Why do you give so much credence to this eye-witness testimony, which
was relayed second hand by distraught loved-ones, while you give little
credence to the first-hand eyewitness testimony of dozens of people,
victims, forced accomplices, and personnel, that there was a systemic
Nazi program of killing Jews, using several modalities, in the
territories they occupied between 1939 and 1945?

> ========================================
> Phillips
>  
> (b) The fact that the plane crashed into a field of some sort rather into a
> politically-significant target as had the other three.
> 
> ===================================================

Your old pal David Irbing seems to disagree. He's claiming that it was
shot down by the US Air Force.


Going through this is a very good exercise in determining what you and
I believe is factual knowledge, and why.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:46 EDT 2001
Article: 976861 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!10.0.4.23.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Phillips' system of epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Supersedes: <201020011429332798%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:50:51 +0300
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In article <171020012150303891%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
 wrote:

To Richard Phillips' claim that Auschwitz escapee Rudolf Vrba was "a
proven liar" because he claimed to have witnessed gassings at Auschwitz
when he actually only _inferred_ that he had witnessed gassings at
Auschwitz.

> Rudolf Vrba was less a "proven liar" than Fred Leuchter was. Vrba
> escaped from Auschwitz in 1944 and helped alert the world, including
> the US War Department and the Vatican, to what was going on there. What
> he claimed in the Auschwitz Protocols is consistent with evidence
> gathered from other sources. In the 1988 Zundel trial in Toronto he was
> aggressively cross examined about a book he had subsequently published
> concerning his "eyewitness account" of gassing at Auschwitz. Pressed,
> he admitted that he had never witnessed an actual gassing, but rather
> that his account was based on conversations with Auschwitz inmates, his
> observation that people entered the 'bathhouses', but were never seen
> again, that smoke, soot, and an umpleasant odor constantly billowed
> from the chimney, as well as on his having seen a medical orderly in a
> gas mask dump tins of Zyklon-B into a flue. He never witnessed a
> gassing because the only people to witness one were the medical
> personnel supervising it who had access to the peephole. If Rudolf Vrba
> is a liar for having claimed to have witnessed gassings, then anybody
> who claims to have seen thousands of people killed when the airplanes
> hit the WTC is also a liar. We can draw an informed conclusion, as Vrba
> did concerning gassing, that the people above the floor where the
> airplanes hit were incinerated. Since nobody actually observed this,
> but can only infer it, such people must also be regarded as liars if we
> follow your logic.
> 
> Vrba is thus guilty of having claimed as reality something which he
> could really only have inferred on the basis of expert knowledge: he
> obtained information by talking to members of the Sonderkommando, he
> detected a pattern that the women, children and elderly folks lined up
> in front of the bathhouses were never seen again, he saw gas-masked
> personnel pouring Zyklon-B into a flue, and he smelled the smoke. Being
> an eyewitness to an airplane crash into the WTC would, I would claim,
> also allow a person to claim in good faith that he had just witnessed
> the death of thousands of people even if, in actual fact, he had only
> witnessed a situation which would allow anyone with general knowledge
> to understand that the impact and the fireball would have killed all
> the people on the airplane, since one would assume that there were
> people on the airplane, as well as all of the people on the floor and
> floors above of the impact and fireball. 
> 
> 
> Such use of common sense is quite different from Fred Leuchter's
> claims, which are based on stupidity or misinformation. Leuchter claims
> that the undeniable presence of cyanide on the walls and in the
> ventilators of the gas chamber at Krema II is the result of a single
> fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic, even though camp records
> indicate that construction of Krema II was begun only in early 1943. He
> claims that the structures alleged to have been used as gas chambers
> could not have been so used because they did not have engineering
> safety features, nevertheless he claims that they could have been
> fumigated with Zyklon B, which means that they must have been capable
> of containing gas in the concentrations needed fumigate a room to kill
> lice. He also claims that it takes a far higher concentration of HCN to
> kill lice than it does to kill people, when the reverse is true: people
> will die in 5 minutes with a concentration of 300 ppm, while Zyklon-B
> was designed to generate the 15,000 ppm and sustain it over the 15
> hours needed to kill vermin. Leuchter also ignores the fact that
> Zyklon-B was a commercial product specifically designed to be used by
> specially trained personnel in normal rooms and premises lacking
> engineering safety features, this lack being taken care of by the
> functionally equivalent olfactory warning agent, an agent which the SS,
> in violation of German legislation, had the manufacturers remove from
> some of the consignments of the stuff being sent to Auschwitz for
> "Jewish resettlement".
> 
> If your analysis of reality allows you to believe the stories, spread
> by the Jewish-owned media that you hate and upheld by the government
> which you despise, of a coordinated multiple hijacking carried out by
> MEM armed with boxcutters that killed almost 7,000 people on orders
> from Usuma bin Laden, then it should allow you to believe the much
> better attested stories, spread by the governments of several
> countries, eyewitnesses, perpetrators, and a mountain of historical
> documents, photographs, films, and other records, of a coordinated
> attack on the Jews of Europe carried out by men armed with rifles, CO,
> and HCN generated by Zyklon-B in specially built trenches outside of
> many of the cities in Eastern Europe, as well as at forced labor camps
> and specially-built extermination facilities in the parts of Europe
> controlled by the Nazis between 1939 and 1945 on orders from Adolf
> Hitler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Neinrich Himmler. If it does not, then
> your lack of belief is not based on careful scrutiny of the facts. If
> you are rational, you either believe both or reject both.

Richard has refused to divulge how he can believe Fred Leuchter, a
proven liar, ignoramus, and charlatan, but call Rudolf Vrba a "proven
liar" on the basis of his having claimed to have "seen" something that
he witnessed and interpreted on the basis of available and reliable
evidence, or how he can believe that 19 MEM's hijacked for airplanes
and killed more than 5,000 people on September 11, when there are no
bodies and mostly eye-witness reports (nobody saw the people in the WTC
in the floors above the crash get incinerated or crushed, and the
number of bodies found after a month of searching is off by an order of
magnitude), but not that several thousand Nazis, often  assisted by
local accomplices requested or forced to participate, murdered
approximately six million Jewish civilians in more than fifteen
European countries between 1939 and 1945.

Epistemologically,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:46 EDT 2001
Article: 976932 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On racial profiling: Is Richard Phillips a MEM in drag?
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On the basis of the virulently anti-free trade statements Richard
Phillips has repeatedly made in this forum, President Bush's statements
indicate that he would consider him to be a prime suspect with respect
to the events of September 11:

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/20/homepage/20CND-PREX.html


October 20, 2001

Bush Suggests Sept. 11 Attacks Were Aimed at World Markets

By DAVID E. SANGER

SHANGHAI, Oct. 20 ‹ President Bush declared today that the two American
soldiers killed in an accident on Friday ‹ the first major casualties
in South Asia ‹ "died in a cause that was just and was right," and he
told leaders of the 21 nations assembled here for an annual summit
meeting that the terrorists who struck the World Trade Center were
trying to bring about a collapse of world markets.

It is the first time he has suggested that the terrorist network Al
Qaeda was seeking to "shatter confidence in the world economic system."
He called on businesses around the world to join the fight against
terrorism, while acknowledging that new security measures and limits on
border crossings ran the risk of undermining world commerce. 

"Terrorists want to turn the openness of the global economy against
itself," he said today during a speech to chief executives, who hold
their own meetings in parallel with those of the government leaders.
"We must not let them."

The news of the accident in Pakistan that killed two soldiers came just
hours before the opening of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum
here, and it underscored how Mr. Bush was mixing coalition building
with long-distance management of the war. 

Mr. Bush slid past questions about the exact mission of American
Special Forces who were sent in and then taken out of Afghanistan
yesterday. The deaths occurred within a search and rescue team on call
in case the Afghanistan mission ran into trouble. "There will be
moments of sacrifice," Mr. Bush said late this morning, as he was about
to begin a meeting with Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan.
"We've seen two such examples today."

The White House announced today that Mr. Bush would leave Shanghai
about half a day earlier than scheduled, departing as soon as a meeting
with Russia's president, Vladimir V. Putin, ends on Sunday. That
meeting is designed to make diplomatic headway in the negotiations over
creating a new strategic relationship with Russia, which the war has
elevated to a new level of cooperation and intelligence sharing.

Though he got no specific endorsement for military strikes in
Afghanistan, including none from Mr. Putin, Mr. Bush could claim a
measure of diplomatic success here simply because he prevented any
major defections from his informal coalition. His goal was to win
general support for counterterrorism, and to make sure that no Asian
countries ‹ especially Indonesia and Malaysia with their large Muslim
populations ‹ peeled away from the West.

But there were several close calls, as country after country in the
region repeated that they wanted to keep civilian casualties to a
minimum and the military action in Afghanistan as short as possible.
After a meeting today between President Jiang Zemin of China and Mr.
Putin, the Russian president's spokesman, Aleksei Gromov, said, "The
leaders want an end to the military phase and to move to a political
settlement as soon as possible."

That is a near echo of what American officials often say to Russian
leaders about their military campaign in Chechnya. Mr. Bush, however,
warned that the war against terrorism may take years.

As several leaders express their reservations over civilian casualties,
Mr. Bush and his advisers have steadily escalated their verbal attacks
on Afghanistan's ruling Taliban. Today Mr. Bush said that "this
conflict is a fight to save the civilized world," from an evil regime
that starves its people and supports terrorists who live "on the hunted
margin of mankind." 

"By their hatred they have divorced themselves from the values that
define civilization itself." 

But while Mr. Bush talked almost exclusively about terrorism and its
state sponsors, the countries here had other matters in mind. Several
focused on the region's fast declining economy, a subject Mr. Bush
touched upon briefly today but, to the disappointment of several
countries here, had no strategy to reverse. 

In an interview on Friday, the president of the Philippines, Gloria
Macapagal Arroyo, said that in many ways Asia was in worse shape now
than it was in 1997 and 1998, at the height of the Asian economic
crisis. "At that time Washington was in a position to be big brother,"
she said. "Now Washington has its own problems." 

Mr. Bush's aides say he also came here to hear about economic concerns,
but it is clear that it is not his priority. None of his most
influential economic aides are here. Nor did he speak in any detail
about economics, even though there has been widespread discussion that
the world may require a coordinated response to a global economic
downturn.

In the interview, Mrs. Arroyo said that she has been involved in
discussions with Indonesia and Malaysia ‹ two overwhelmingly Islamic
states ‹ about creating a Southeast Asian subgroup of the antiterrorism
coalition that would "make us stronger in fighting terrorism in our
part of the world."

The three countries, and perhaps others, would share intelligence and
help identify terrorist cells. But the proposal appears designed in
part to create a group not under American domination, something that
the leaders of Malaysia and Indonesia worry about. That would allow
them to have an antiterror organization of their own at a time each is
fighting extremist groups.

Today Malaysia's prickly, outspoken president, Mahathir bin Mohamad,
met with Mr. Bush at his hotel in the center of Shanghai, and the
Malaysian leader used the occasion to complain that the war in
Afghanistan was taking innocent Afghan lives. Interestingly, the White
House allowed photographers to record the meeting, but banned the
reporters who usually ask a few questions at the outset of such of a
meeting. 

When Mr. Mahathir emerged to give a speech to business executives, the
same group Mr. Bush addressed earlier in the day, he did not mention
terrorism. But he did level a strong blast at the forces of economic
globalization that Mr. Bush had just hailed. 

"If I had a billion U.S. dollars, I suspect I too would be very
committed to a fully globalized world without any barriers and without
any constraints on what I can do with my money and how I can make even
more money," he said, mocking the group's commitment to free trade. 

Mr. Bush argued the opposite point ‹ that more globalization, more
openness, will help fight terrorism. "I'm here in Shanghai to assure
our friends and to inform our our foes that the progress of trade and
freedom will continue. The ties of culture and commerce will grow
stronger." 



Thinking about this causes me to laugh myself to sleep with all of the
unflagging enthusiasm of a Nebraska Sunday school superintendent on his
first trip to Europe who happens upon the Reeberbahn.


-- 
Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:46 EDT 2001
Article: 977426 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips's epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:28:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3BD36E95.EED1D8D9@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:
> 
> > In article <201020011429332798%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Richard has refused to divulge how he can believe Fred Leuchter, but
> > > call Rudolf Vrba a "proven liar",
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> THis might help:

Thanks. This was a very interesting and thought-provoking article. I'd
like to address only one issue in it for now, being pressed for time.



> A Sensational Turn of Events: The Leuchter Report
> 


> Would people one day remember the skepticism I had encountered, even from
> other Revisionists? Just before Fred Leuchter, Bill Armontrout had been on
> the witness stand, where he confirmed, in every detail, what I had said to
> the jury about the extreme difficulties of a homicidal gassing (not to be
> confused with a suicidal or accidental gassing).

This is where the logial difficulty enters the picture. Faurisson,
Leuchter, and Armontrout were all thinking in terms of American
execution practices and norms. From what is written above, it appears
that they admit that the conditions in the former gas chambers were
such that they could sustain "a suicidal or accidental gassing", and
that is the point I have been arguing all along. Execution gassings in
the USA use concentrations of HCN _ore than an rder of magnitude higher
than the minimum concentration necessary to kill people_. There is no
questioning the fact that the structures at Auschwitz-Birkenau would
have been able to contain the concentrations of HCN needed to replicate
"a suicidal or accidental gassing", indeed, Leuchter argues in his
report and Faurisson below that they would have been able to sustain
the much higher concentrations needed for fumigation, so this remark
about not confusing the two is a red herring: the structures at
Auschwitz-Birkenau were sufficient to withstand the low concentrations
of HCN that will kill people forced to breathe it.

In actual fact, they were capable of withstanding considerably higher
concentrations since, as we know, Zyklon-B, which had its own in-built
safety features and was only allowed to be used by specially trained
personnel, was designed to be used in normal premises lacking
engineering saftey features.



> 
> James Roth, director of a laboratory in Massachusetts, then testified on
> the analysis of the 32 samples, the origin of which he was unaware of: all
> the samples taken in the homicidal "gas chambers" contained a quantity of
> cyanide which was either unmeasurable or infinitesimal, while the sample
> from the disinfection gas chamber, taken for comparison's sake, contained
> an enormous amount of cyanide (the infinitesimal quantity detected in the
> former case can be explained by the fact that the supposed homicidal gas
> chambers were in fact morgues for preserving bodies; such morgues could
> have been occasionally disinfected with Zyklon B).

If they could withstand the high concentration of Zyklon B over the
long timeframe needed for fumigation, then they could withstand the
much lower concentrations of Zyklon B over the far shorter timeframe
needed to kill people in conditions similar to those of an accidental
or suicidal gassing. That's all I have been arguing, and Leuchter,
Faurisson, and evidently Bill Armontrout all agree. The ability to be
fumigated with HCN logically entails the ability to contain the much
lower concentrations of HCN needed to kill people. To express it in
Farisson's inimitable manner: If fumigations, then executions, that is
to say, no fumigation capability without execution capability.




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:46 EDT 2001
Article: 977465 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips's epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Supersedes: <221020011404500529%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:46:35 +0300
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In article <3BD36E95.EED1D8D9@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Phillips
> 
> It is a fact that on September 11, there were three crashes of airliners into
> buildings:
> 
> --One into WTC 1
> --Another into WTC 2
> --A third into the Pentagon
> 
> If you are disputing this please let us know.

Nolo contendere. I would just add that there was a fourth one that
crashed into a field in Pennsylvania which you are neglecting, but
which must be taken into account.

> 
> Now it is either the case that the planes were GUIDED into those buildings by
> human agency or that they were out of human control. (eg pilot, dead, drunk,
> or
> otherwise incapacitated). This would be a possibility worth considering  if
> there
> had been only one crash; if ceases to be a possibility when there were THREE
> crashes, all in the same day, and in every case into a structure of
> considerable
> political significance.

Once again, the fourth crash is significant. There is evidence that it
crashed in a field rather than into the White House, Camp David, or the
Capitol because the passengers had been made aware of the WTC bombings
and revolted.


> 
> Now IF I have succeeded in establishing that the planes were guided by some
> sort
> of human agency, there remains the question of whether the miscreants were on
> board the planes or whether evilly disposed persons on the ground had the
> special
> equipment and know-how that enabled them to remotely take over the aircrafts'
> guidance despite anything the pilots could do. THat is ruled out by two
> considerations:
> 
> (1) If a remote takeover of the planes' guidance systems had taken place,
> there
> would have been frantic radio messages from the pilots.

Not necessarily. The radios and transponders could have simply been
switched off. And the pilots could have had their throats slit early in
the game with those alleged box cutters. Some evidence indicates that
the hijackers of the fourth airplane were invited into the cockpit by
the pilots after having indicated that they were colleagues from
another airline.

> 
> (2) We know that, in the case of one of the planes, there was a struggle
> between
> passengers and terrorists.

Now you are 'lying' in the way that Vrba was 'lying'. The plane in
which there was alleged to have been a struggle did not crash into a
building, but went out of control and crashed in a field in
Pennsylvania. Indeed, it would be absurd to argue that a plane flying
out of control due to a fight between the passengers and terrorists
could have crashed into a target wuch as the WTC towers or the Pentagon
if it was flying without a pilot. A person who made a slip-up of the
type you just did would be thrown out of the courtroom pronto as an
unreliable witness giving testimony that was provably absurd.

As to the alleged struggle, we have some evidence in that direction. We
"know" that in the same way that Rudolf Vrba "knew" about gassings at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. It is the best and most probably possible
conclusion based on the available evidence. In Vrba's case in addition
to information given verbally by the Sonderkommando members, he had the
lines of children, the begasmasked medical orderly emptying cans of
Zyklon-B into the flue, the smoke, and the foul smelling odor on which
to base his judgements. In the case of the struggle we have reports of
conversations on cell phones that have not been recorded and cannot be
verified, given by distraught loved-ones. The airplane was destroyed to
such a degree that there is no physical evidence of a struggle. Thus,
all conclusions about a struggle aboard the plane that crashed in
Pennsylvania are based upon a reconstruction of events related to the
authorities from the people called by alleged eyewitnesses. This is
thus two testimonial layers removed from the event and has virtually
no evidentiary value.

> 
> I submit, therefore, that I have established beyond reasonable doubt that, in
> three of the four cases, the planes WERE taken over by on-board terrorists.

Your "proof" is no better and no worse than Rudolf Vrba's proof beyond
reasonable doubt that the regular lines of women, children, and elderly
people outside of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoria were, unknownst to
the people queuing up, waiting to enter a room, the door of which would
be locked and the ambient air of which would be altered so that it
contained a lethal concentration of HCN.

> 
> As for the deaths, let me say that both the number of offices in the
> buildings and
> the staffing levels for those offices are accurately known. I submit therefore
> that one of two things is the case:

The first crash took place at 8:48, twelve minutes before what would
have been the beginning of the working day for a substantial number of
the workers. Efforts to evacuate the second tower began immediately. It
is extremely difficult to say how many people were at work, how many in
the men's or ladies' room or the elevators preparing for or going to
work, and how many never entered the building. Nor should one forget
the possibility that more than a few people with heavy debts, a nagging
or abusive spouse, or some other personal problem could have used the
opportunity to "disappear".

> 
> (1) That the number of deaths is pretty close to what has been estimated ...
> or
> (2) That there was on that day --FOR those office buildings but  for no
> others-- a
> mass absenteeism of a sort never experienced before. Did we have any advance
> reason to suppose such a thing was going to take place. If it HAD taken place,
> then would there not have been dozens of people who afterwords reported that
> they
> had phoned or visited such and such office but were unable to transact their
> intended business because no one was there.
> 
> ====================================================

How much business in the WTC is transacted between 8:00 and 8:48 in the
morning? Although the building worked round the clock, most people
started work there between 8:00 and 10:00, with 9:00 and 9:30 being the
most common times to start work afaik. Tales of mass absenteeism appear
to be an urban legend. The attacks took place during the slack initial
hour of the business day when many people were still on their way to
work. Had it been the terrorists objective to kill as many people as
possible, they could have delayed their attack by a mere fifteen
minutes and surely killed at least twice as many people.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:46 EDT 2001
Article: 977521 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips's epistemology (was Re: Phillips' deliberate ignorance)
Supersedes: <221020012024448630%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:06:39 +0300
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In article <3BD445A5.455C26B7@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
>

> >
> > Not necessarily. The radios and transponders could have simply been
> > switched off. And the pilots could have had their throats slit early in
> > the game with those alleged box cutters.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I considered two possibilities:  (a) that there were hi-jackers on board
> (something
> you seem determined to disprove)

I'm not trying to disprove it. I'm merely stating that the evidence for
it is third hand (eyewitness to loved one, loved one to authorities)
and evidently contains two strata of emotional noise. If you do not
regard as proof conclusions based on eyewitness reports, documents, and
piles of ashes, then you should, if you are rational in your sifting of
data to obtain information from which th glean knowledge, be even more
critical of proof based on second-hand eyewitness reports and piles of
ashes. My point is that there is more and better evidence supporting
the Holocaust than there is of the airliners having been hijacked. I'm,
not "dermined" to prove anything elser, rather I'm trying to make you
understand that you are basing your "knowledge" that the airplanes were
hijacked on less and lower-quality evidence than you are basing your
scepticism with regard to the Holocaust.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> or (b) that the guidance was somehow taken
> over by
> remote ground-based equipment. If you wish to deny (b) and insist on (a)
> --hijackers
> on board-- that ssuits me very well.
> 
> =================================================

No. I don't want to deny anything. I'm with you all the way, except for
the factual mixup you had about there being three rather than four
planes, and that one of the three planes that crashed into a building
had a struggle in which the passengers overcame the hijacker pilots.
The evidence strongly supports that *not* having happened. Airplanes
don't crash broadside into buildings when flying out of control. The
evidence we have suggest strongly that only in the airplane that
crashed in Pennsylvania did such a struggle take place. Since it is
"earwitness testimony" based on eyewiness testimony, it has little if
any probative value. There is absolutely no physical evidence, other
than a crashed airplane, that such a struggle took place, not even one
box cutter.

> 
> > Some evidence indicates that
> > the hijackers of the fourth airplane were invited into the cockpit by
> > the pilots after having indicated that they were colleagues from
> > another airline.
> >
> > >
> > > (2) We know that, in the case of one of the planes, there was a struggle
> > > between
> > > passengers and terrorists.
> >
> > Now you are 'lying' in the way that Vrba was 'lying'.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The scene was described by passengers over their cell phones. That's good
> enough for
> me. Are you  perhaps arguing that it was all part of an anti-Muslim
> "conspiracy?"
> One the passengers were willing to sacrifice their lives for.
> 
> ===================================

The scene was described to Vrba by Sonderkommando members, in addition
to which he claims to have seen medical orderlies dumping tins of
Zyklon B into the flues which the Sonderkommandos had told him led into
the gas chambers. That was good enough for the US War Department and
the Vatican. After the war, people such as the physician Dr. Hans Münch
and surviving Sonderkommando member Henryk Tauber gave testimony about
the details of the gassing procedure that were consistent with what
Vrba had testified.


> > The plane in
> > which there was alleged to have been a struggle did not crash into a
> > building, but went out of control and crashed in a field in
> > Pennsylvania. Indeed, it would be absurd to argue that a plane flying
> > out of control due to a fight between the passengers and terrorists
> > could have crashed into a target wuch as the WTC towers or the Pentagon
> > if it was flying without a pilot.
> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> How can I argue that when we know it is not true.
> 
> =============================
> 
> > A person who made a slip-up of the
> > type you just did would be thrown out of the courtroom pronto as an
> > unreliable witness giving testimony that was provably absurd.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What "slip-up?"
> 
> =====================

You don't remember what you wrote. Let me remind you:


> ===========================================
> Phillips
>
> > It is a fact that on September 11, there were three crashes of airliners into
> > buildings:
> >
> > --One into WTC 1
> > --Another into WTC 2
> > --A third into the Pentagon



> >
> > (2) We know that, in the case of one of the planes, there was a struggle
> > between passengers and terrorists.


Since you never mention the fourth plane, but talk about the three
planes more than once, what you write strongly implies that there is
evidence of a struggle having taken place on one of the three hijacked
planes that crashed into a building. There is no such evidence. There
is second-hand eyewitness testimony, and precious little else, of a
struggle having taken place aboard the fourth plane, the one you don't
mention, that crashed into a field in Pennsylvania and disintegrated.

> >
> > As to the alleged struggle, we have some evidence in that direction. We
> > "know" that in the same way that Rudolf Vrba "knew" about gassings at
> > Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Vrba had nothing to go on but rumours that were going around the camp. He lied
> through his teeth in claiming to have witnessed those things first hand.

Vrba spoke with mebers of the Sonderkommando, he saw medical orderlies
in gas-masks emptying tins of Zyklon-B into the flues, he saw lines of
women, children, and elderly people, folks that obviously could not
stand up to the rigors of camp life, standing in fron of the Kremas on
a regular basis, only to disappear inside them, he saw and smelled the
smoke and the stench of burning flesh on a regular basis. Vrba was
clever enough at gathering information about the camp that he was able
to escape. You have to give him credit for knowing the camp and its
routines if he could manage that.

> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> In the case of the fourth plane we have
> 
> (a) On-the-spot accounts from passengers given over their cell phanes

Why do you give so much credence to this eye-witness testimony, which
was relayed second hand by distraught loved-ones, while you give little
credence to the first-hand eyewitness testimony of dozens of people,
victims, forced accomplices, and personnel, that there was a systemic
Nazi program of killing Jews, using several modalities, in the
territories they occupied between 1939 and 1945?

> ========================================
> Phillips
>  
> (b) The fact that the plane crashed into a field of some sort rather into a
> politically-significant target as had the other three.
> 
> ===================================================

Your old pal David Irving seems to disagree. He's claiming that the
aircraft was shot down by the US Air Force.

Going through this is a very good exercise in determining what you and
I believe is factual knowledge, and why.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:47 EDT 2001
Article: 977990 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.current-events.wtc-explosion
Subject: Re: The Weekly Treason
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:55:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <241020011055574856%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3bd49e37.168316231@news.mindspring.com>, jim917@juno.com 
(Gentleman Jim ) wrote:

>  Europe has been open to all kinds of incursions. Chiefly the Vikings,
> Visigoths, 

Šwho were Europeans, and rather barbaric ones at that. The Vikings were
>from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, the Visigoths originated in southern
Sweden and migrated southwards, splitting once on the continent into
Ostrogoths (> Romania > Ukraine > Crimean Peninsula) and Visigoths
(Bulgaria > Serbia > Slovenia > Northern Italy > Southern France
Northern Spain > Catalonia).

> maraudering Mongol hordes, and the Islamic Moors and Arabs.
> Islam thrived in Spain for over 800 years.

They also cultivated learning and scholarship. Many English words such
as alcohol, algebra, alchemy, alfalfa, almanac, all beginning with al-,
the definite article in Arabic, testify to the intellectual pursuits of
the Moors during an age when European civilization was shackled by the
triple curse of church micromanagement, dogmatism, and feudalism.
Anyone who has visited Andalusia and seen the magnificent achievements
of Moorish architecture such as the Alhambra in Grenada, the Giralda in
Sevilla, and the Alcazaba in Malaga appreciates the technological and
intellectual achievements of the Islamic Moors and Arabs who preserved
and contributed to, rather than destroyed, what they inherited of
Western civilization.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:47 EDT 2001
Article: 977991 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.current-events.wtc-explosion
Subject: Re: The Weekly Treason
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:13:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <241020011113318260%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3BD5F5D6.2515F15@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ========================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Because Islam is, and has been from its beginnings, a
> "Death-to-the-Unbelievers"
> religion.
> 
> ===================================================

It would be more correct to say that Islam has often been in the hands
of people who thought like that. Jewish and, to a lesser extent,
Christian culture flourished for centuries in many centers where Islam
dominated, such as Moorish Spain, Baghdad, Samarkand, Bukhara, and
Jerusalem under Ottoman rule. Hindus and Muslims lived side by side in
India until the British, realizing that they were going to be forced
out, did everything they could to whip up tension between the two
groups, resulting in the partition of the subcontinent into India,
Pakistan, and, as consequence of later developments, Bangladesh.

The history of Europe shows that "death-to-unbelievers" has also
frequently been a feature of Christianity (the various bloody conflicts
characterizing various heresies, the Crusades, the Reformation, the
counter-Reformation, and the brutal Thirty Years war being the most
notable). If we define nazism and communism as secular religions, we
are forced to conclude that the mindset "death-to-unbelievers" was
aften a feature of them as well, as exemplified by Stalin's purges and
Hitler's concentration camps, originally built for the internment of
political opponents, i.e. people who did not believe in Nazism or in
Hitler as the savior of Germany.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Oct 26 12:42:47 EDT 2001
Article: 978052 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Did Hitler Know About The Concentration Camps?
Supersedes: <241020011945215869%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:09:48 +0300
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In article , Anonymous
 wrote:

> I was just checking out the Hal Turner website, and I was wondering about a
> few things.
> 
> Is it true that NO Evidence exist to show that Hitler knew about the
> concentration camps? No written documents etc, etc.

Nazi Germany was a dictatorship, and Hitler learned early in the game
to give orders orally to those in his closest circle and not sign
anything. Hitler got burned when he signed a general order authorizing
a atete-sponsored euthanasia program in late 1939, and after the public
outcry, he was careful not to commit his name to anything as
controversial again.

The Nazis ran more than 10,000 concentration camps, and feeding,
accommodating, and guarding the more than 14,000,000 people that passed
through them ate up a substantial part of the state budget. Hitler
would have been a fool if he did not know about the camps. Hitler's
style was not to be associated with unhappy things. He never visited a
concentration camp, just as he never visited any of the bombed citie,
except, of course, Berlin.

> (Is there any kind of written proof with his signature authorizing the
> extermination of Jews?)

No. There is written proof referring to an orally given Führer order,
but no written order itself. With respect to the Holocaust, it is very
difficult to trace the flow of information from orders issued at the
top down to their implementation in the field. It is,, however, easy to
trace the flow of information from the field back up to the offices of
the SS in Berlin that were implementing the Holocaust.

There is, however, a document from Hermann Göring dated July 31, 1941
(a translation is available at
http:www,historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-order1.htm ), ordering
Reinhard Heydrich to "carry out preparations as regards organizational,
financial, and material matters for a total solution (Gesamtlöung) of
the Jewish question in all the territories of Europe under German
occupation." It mentions that these measures are to _supplement_ the
measures taken to "solve the Jewish problem by means of emigration and
evacuation", and they are to lead to "the desired final solution
(Endlösung) of the Jewish question.

Additionally, several documents making reference to Hitler's order as
justification for an exterminational policy in places where local
authorities would have preferred to use the Jews under their control
for forced labor. Here is a summary of the types of evidence which have
come to light with regard to the implementation of the Holocaust in
Latvia, occupied by Nazi Germany between 1941 and 1944 and
administered, along with Estonia and Latvia, as the Ostland or Eastern
Territory.

Andrew Ezergailis's recently published detailed case study of the
implementation of the Holocaust in Latvia (Andrew Ezergailis, 1996, *The
Holocaust in Latvia, 1941 - 1944: the missing center*, The Historical
Institute of Latvia, Riga), mentions the following three types of
indirect evidence for the existence of an orally given order from
Hitler to implement the Holocaust. 
1. Trial records of various war-crime trials, 
2. Captured German documents,
3. Records of anti-Semitic legislation issued by the Nazis in Latvian
archives.

Let's consider each in turn.

1. Trial records of various war-crime trials

SS-Obersturtmbannführer Dr. Martin Sandberger, commander of EK 1a:

"I myself was present during the discussions in the Palais Prinz
Albrecht in Berlin and during the speech by Streckenbach when the
well-known Führer  order was announced."

"Streckenbach personally informed me about the Führer order, which said
that, in order to secure the Eastern territory permanently, all Jews,
Gypsies, and communist functionaries were to be eliminated, together
with all other elements who might endanger society."

According to Sandberger, the work of an EK commander consisted of four
elements:

[Establishing] a good relationship with the army as far as possible;
second a strict and energetic leadership of the commandos under his
command; third, as quick and thorough an execution of an order as
possible, in particular concerning the Jews; and fourth, as part of this
Führer order, a bitter fight against communism.

Q. What orders did [Brigadeführer Walter] Stahlecker give you before you
left Riga?

A. he gave me two orders particularly, the first order was to have as
good a relationship as possible with the army and, second, as i have
said, according to the Führerbefehl to have Estonian Jews eliminated.

(From the testimany delivered for the Einsatztruppen Case, 1947-1948,
vol. 6, pp. 2143-2176, quoted in Ezergailis op. cit., pps. 204 - 205.)


2. Captured German documents

Stahlecker's Memorandum of August 6, 1941. This memorandum was written
in response to Hinrich Lohse's guidelines on the treatment of Jews in
Ostland (July 27, 1941). Up until the beginning of the war against the
Soviet Union, policy towards Jews in Nazi-occupied territory had
primarily been to ghettoize them and exploit them for labor. Lohse had
recommended that the same policy be continued. In response to this
Stahlecker wrote:

"The projected measures concerning the settling of the Jewish problem
are not in harmony with those orders concerning Jews in the Ostland
given by Einsatzgruppe A of the Security Police and the SD. Nor does
the project take into consideration the new possibilities of cleaning
up the Jewish question in the Eastern regions.

"In the Generalgouvernement there was no serious danger to in leaving
the Jews in their living quarters and work places. But in the Ostland,
the resident Jews or those brought in by the Red powers became the
leading supporters of the Bolshevik idea. Numerous Jews are openly
communist activists. The experience so far allows us to expect that,
even a long time after the military occupation of the Ost territory,
disorders will arise. Sabotage and acts of terror can be expected not
only from communists not caught in previous actions, but precisely from
Jews who will use every possibility to create disorder. The pressing
need to pacify the Ost area quickly makes it necessary to eliminate all
likely sources of disorder.
 
"The project apparently does not foresee the resettlement of the Jews as
an immediate measure provided under paragraph V, but rather sees that
as a slower, later development.

"In closing, let me sum up by saying that the Jewish question shall be
solved by 1) a complete and 100 percent clearing of the Jews from the
Ost territory; 2) preventing the Jews from increasing their numbers; 3)
using the Jews to the fullest as a work force; 4) a considerable
facilitation for the later collective transport to a reservation
outside Europe.

"This definite measure can be carried out only by the forces of the
Security and the Order Police.

A post script to the letter reads:

"Consider it desirable, before issuing any basic statement, once more to
discuss these questions by word of mouth, especially since it is safer
that way, and since it concerns Fundamental orders from higher authority
to the Security Police, ones that should not be discussed in writing."

(The full text of the memorandum is given in Ezergailis, op. cit., pps.
378 - 380.)

According to Ezergailis, Stahlecker made three further rerefences to the
fundamental orders - on October 15, 1941, and on January 31, 1942.

Stahlecker's Consolidated Report, October 15, 1941:

"From the very beginning it was to be expected that pogroms alone would
not solve the Jewish problem in the ostland. The goal of the cleansing
operation of the Sicherheitspolizei, in accordance with the fundamental
orders, was the most comprehensive elimination of the Jews possible."

The same report continues:

"It is appropriate to mention in this connection the considerable
resistance by officers of the Civil Administration against the
implementation of large-scale executions. This resistance was countered
in all cases by pointing out that the implementation of executions was
the result of a fundamental order."

Stahlecker's Consolidated Report, January 31, 1942:

"According to the orders of establishing basic principles to be
followed, the systematic purge operations in the Ostland, including the
elimination, as completely as possible of Jewry."

(Ezergailis, op. cit., pg. 232.)


The killing of Jews in Latvia had fallen behind the pace of killing in
the southern part of the Soviet Union, partially as a consequence of
delays resulting from the transition from Lohse's exculsionist to
Stahlecker's eliminationist guidelines. According the Ezergailis,
approximately 30,000 Latvian Jews, primarily in small towns, had been
killed by the end of September, 1941. Neverteheless, the Jewish
population of the main urban centers, Riga, Liepaja, and Daugavpils,
was still alive. The failure to maintain the 'normal' rate of slaughter
was blamed on resident HSSPF Ostland commander Hans Prützmann, who was
replaced on Himmler's orders by general Friedrich Jeckeln:

"In the South, Jeckeln, Rasch, Ohlendorf, and subordinates like Blobel
had made giant strides towards resolving the Jewish question. [In
Ukraine] Jeckeln had managed to get the military to cooperate, civil
authorities were not yet a problem, and the execution totals were far
higher. So·Himmler decided to have Jeckeln replace Prützemann in the
Ostland."

(R. Breitman, 1991, *The Architect of Genocide*, New York, pg. 214.,
quoted in Ezergailis, op. cit., pg. 208.)

According to Ezergailis:
"Himmler had picked General Jeckeln for the assignment in the North
because he had excelled in numerous killing operations in Ukraine. In
1946 Jeckeln told the Soviet judges in Riga that he had received
reconfirmation of the higher orders from Himmler directly. Before
taking the post in Riga, Jeckeln was summoned to Berlin, where Himmler
specifically ordered him to empty the Riga and other Ostland ghettos.
"Tell Lohse that is my order," Himmler told Jeckeln, "and that it also
expresses the Führer's wish." "

According to Breitman, op. cit, 216 - 217 Himmler's order to Jeckeln was
the result of prodding from Hitler. The rush to kill the Jews of Ostland
was associated with Hitler's desire to clear Germany of its Jews by the
end of 1941.


3. Records of anti-Semitic legislation issued by the Nazis in Latvian
archives

The entry of Nazi forces into Latvia was accompanied by the passing of
anti-Semitic legislation, the first of its type in latvia, some of
issued within hours of the Germans' arrival. (The Soviets had passed
some anti-Jewish laws certain restricting religious practices in 1940,
but these were not anti-Semitic in the strict sense).

The first anti-Semitic law was proclaimed by Wehrmacht Colonel
Ullersberger, the commandant of Riga, on July 2:
"All Jews, until otherwise notified, are forbidden to stand in lines.
They can shop only in those stores that have no queues."

On Jul5, Korvettenkapitän Brückner issues the following anti-Semitic
laws:
1) All Jews must wear an easily recognized yellow marking on the back
and chest not smaller than 10 x 10 cm.
2) All men from 16 to 60 must appear at 7:00 a.m. for work duty.
3) The shopping time for all Jews is 10 to 12 a.m.
4) Jews are only allowed to leave their quarters from 10:00 to 12:00
a.m. and 3:00 to 5:00 p.m.
5) Jews are forbidden to attend public events or to walk on the
seashore.
6) When meeting a uniformed German, Jews must leave the sidewalk.
7) Jews are forbidden to use public transportation.
8) All Jewish shops must have a sign 'Jewish business' in the window.
9) All Jews must turn in all radios, all means of transportation, all
uniforms, all weapons, and all typewriters.

These were followed by ghettoization laws, night actions of vandalism
and plundering against Jewish enterprises (following the model of
*Kristallnacht*), the burning of the Synagogues in Riga (the large
choral synagogue on Gogola St., another one on Stabu St., and a
Hassidic prayer house in the Masavas suburb, all on the evening of
Friday, July 4, 1941), and eventually, by the massacre of the Jewish
population (the two actions in Rumbula outside Riga on Nov. 30 and Dec.
8, 1941 resulted in the death of approximately 25,000 Jews).

(Ezergailis, op. cit. pps. 208 - 238 passim.)

These measures, and the order and manner in which they were implemented
were so similar to the measures taken in other Nazi-occupied countries
in Europe that it would be unreasonable to attribute the analogous
features to chance. They were part of an overall plan, frequently
referred to by the Germans as 'the Führer Order', perhaps never issued
in written form but nevertheless explicit enough to serve as a
behavioral model for the humiliation, harassment, and eventual
genocidal elimination of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe.

All of these events and measures are meticulously documented in numerous
printed sources and archives, as well as in the protocols of trials, in
the testimony of those involved as perpetrators, victims, and in the
accounts of  third parties, such as journalists. They prove without the
shadow of a doubt that a part of the the Holocaust, as generally
defined, took place in Latvia during the years of Nazi rule.


As to information flowing upwards, you might want to have a look at the
Jaeger Report (
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/jaeger-report/ ),
which gives a bureaucratic chronology of the the murderous activities
of Einsatzkommando 3 in Nazi-occupied Lithuania in late 1941.

The Report (in translation, the photocopies of the original can be
accessed at the above site) begins:


Secret Reich Business! 5 copies 
Complete list of executions carried out in the
EK 3 area up to 1 December 1941." 


It goes on to give a dated listing of the victims. Some typical
entries, taken ranomly from page 6:


20.9.41 in Nemencing 
128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99 Jewish children 

22.9.41 in Novo-Wilejka 
468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196 Jewish children 
24.9.41 in Riess 
512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511 Jewish children 
25.9.41 in Jahiunai 
215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131 Jewish children 
27.9.41 in Eysisky 
989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821 Jewish children

 
> I found this to be most disturbing:
> From what I just heard, did the Jewish Bolsheviks slaughter some 58-million
> people? 

1. It is as incorrect to speak about the Jewish Bolsheviks as it is to
speak about the Christian Nazis. Ethnic but secular Jews were well
represented among the leading ranks of those that implemented the
Bolshevik Revolution that toppled the czarist government in Russia, but
they were pushed aside and often executed by the leaders, Lenin and,
later, Stalin. Even before the founding of the Soviet Union on December
30, 1922 after five years of bloody civil war, the Bolshevik leaders
had passed legislation calling for a sharp curtailent of religious
activity in Soviet Russia, closing and desecrating churches,
synagogues, and mosques, and arresting or even executing clergy of all
three religions for parasitism. Jews were not given any special
treatment, and, after Stalin beat Leon Trotsky, a Jew, for the position
of successor to Lenin, ethnic Jews were virtually excluded from the
Soviet leadership. 

The communist country in which the overwhelming majority of the
50,000,000 victims of communism (most authorities place the estimate
even higher, at about 65,000,000) you are referring to died was Mao
Tse-Tung's China. The most murderous communists were thus people of
Chinese and Russian ethnicity. Religious Jews suffered under Eastern
European communism in the same manner as people confessing other
religions did. Not even a single Communist Party leader in the USSR or
elsewhere was a Jew in any meaningful sense of the word, even though
one or two such as János Kádár in Hungary might have had some Jewish
ancestry. Lenin was a Russian, Stalin was a Georgian who had once
studied for the Christian ministry, Khrushchev and Brezhnev were
Russified Ukrainians who were born to Christian Russian Orthodox
families. Neither were other major figures in the international
communist movement such as Kim Il Sung, Mao Tze-Tung, Chao En-Lai, Ho
Chih Min, Gustav Husak, Eduard Gierek, Antonin Novotny, Enver Hoxha,
Fidel Castro, Walter Ulbricht, Ernst Honecker, Egon Krenz, Nicolae
Ceaucescu, Aleksandr Dubc^ek, Aleksei Kosygin, Anastas Mikoyan, or
Todor Zhivkov Jews in any way, shape, or form.

On the other hand, many of the people persecuted by communists, such as
Nathan and Avital Sharansky, were believing Jews, who were hounded for
their outspokenness about their Jewish religion and world view.

> If this is true, why are their no museums or monuments to honor these
> people, are the life's of 6-million worth more than 58-million?

Communism did its foul work over a course of more than 70 years in many
countries on four continents. Although it was an international movement
which set up police states which dealt ruthlessly with its opponents,
it was not systematically exterminationist, like Nazism. A cynic might
even say that communist killed people in the way that international
corporate capitalism kills many people in the Third World today. It
would not be difficult to prove that multinational calitalism and
exploitation are responsible for millions of deaths and widespread
poverty in countries where people make sneakers that sell in New York
at $100 a pair, but are paid only $1 a day. The communists deported
entire nations to Siberia and built concentration camps where many
people were executed and others were brutalized. As bad as that was,
they did not embark upon a program irected at exterminating entire
races and ethnicities from the planet.

> 
> Why are children being taught about the Holocaust, and not the Bolshevik
> revolution?

At good schools they are taught about both. And about the takeover of
China by communists as well.

> 
> I'm just wondering, about all of this, so do not call me an anti-Semite for asking.

No problem. They only way to find out it to ask.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

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