The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/h/holman.eugene/2001/holman.0109


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Sep  2 14:50:29 EDT 2001
Article: 954316 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ku Klux Klan has these kinda rules don't they?
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:29:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <310820011929071536%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B8F98AE.840BD260@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ======================================================
> Phillips
> 
> What you have told us is that the Jews who run Israel will have none of the
> crap
> preached by the Jews who run America and which they have managed to foist on
> America.
> 
> I respect and admire their plain, horse sense. Does this make Israel a closed
> society? Good. Societies SHOULD be closed.
> 
> ============================================================

Yet you are the product of an open society one hundred per cent! Had
there not been a society open and willing to take in your persecuted
grandparents, a society with which they had little in common
religiously, culturally, or racially, they would have been killed in
pogroms, or, alternatively, your parents, if your grandparents had
survived long enough to have them, would almost certainly have fallen
victims to Stalinist or Nazi anti-Semitism.

Why do ypu argue for closed societies when you are so much the product
of one society trying to close itself by persecuting a group it felt
did not belong, and of another one that was open enough to take in just
about everyone that came knocking on its door?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Sep  2 14:50:29 EDT 2001
Article: 954327 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ku Klux Klan has these kinda rules don't they?
Supersedes: <310820011956240031%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:16:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 67
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In article <3B8FB98F.BEFB4@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B8F98AE.840BD260@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > ======================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > What you have told us is that the Jews who run Israel will have none of
> > > the
> > > crap
> > > preached by the Jews who run America and which they have managed to foist
> > > on
> > > America.
> > >
> > > I respect and admire their plain, horse sense. Does this make Israel a
> > > closed
> > > society? Good. Societies SHOULD be closed.
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> >
> > Yet you are the product of an open society one hundred per cent! Had
> > there not been a society open and willing to take in your persecuted
> > grandparents, a society with which they had little in common
> > religiously, culturally, or racially, they would have been killed in
> > pogroms, or, alternatively, your parents, if your grandparents had
> > survived long enough to have them, would almost certainly have fallen
> > victims to Stalinist or Nazi anti-Semitism.
> >
> > Why do ypu argue for closed societies when you are so much the product
> > of one society trying to close itself by persecuting a group it felt
> > did not belong, and of another one that was open enough to take in just
> > about everyone that came knocking on its door?

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> By opening its doors to East European Jews, America made a decision that was
> lucky
> for Dick Phillips but extremely UNlucky for America. Now that I'm happily on-board,
> I insist that the doors be closed.
> 
> ====================================

It is indeed refreshing to see how frank you are about your hypocrisy.

The logical problem in your standpoint is somewhat more subtle and
should also be addressed. East European Jews were first admitted to the
United States at a time when they had no political power or advocates
among the American public. My readings in the history of American
immigration indicate that one of the groups which extended them the
most lukewarm welcome was the already existing Jewish community. Mostly
of urban and urbane German origin and assimilated to a considerable
degree, they feared the prospect of being associated with their rural,
unwashed, Yiddish-speaking coreligionists from Eastern Europe. How can
you say that an open door immigration policy was foisted on America by
Jews when Jews got to America because of the prior existence of such a
policy? That's as illogical as explaining the presence of cyanide
compounds in samples taken from the ruins of a gas chamber, the
contruction of which began in early 1943, as the result of a fumigation
consequent to a mid-1942 typhus epidemic.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Sep  2 14:50:29 EDT 2001
Article: 954353 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ku Klux Klan has these kinda rules don't they?
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:22:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <310820012122572341%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b8f8e09_2@corp.newsgroups.com> <3B8F98AE.840BD260@earthlink.net> <310820011929071536%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B8FB98F.BEFB4@earthlink.net> <310820012016493677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B8FCDA9.CFDC8E0D@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B8FCDA9.CFDC8E0D@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> > That's as illogical as explaining the presence of cyanide
> > compounds in samples taken from the ruins of a gas chamber, the
> > contruction of which began in early 1943, as the result of a fumigation
> > consequent to a mid-1942 typhus epidemic.

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Are you talking about samples taken from the walls of the fumigation chamber
> or from the
> walls of the (alleged) execution chamber?
> 
> =================================

We, or at least I, are/am talking about samples taken from the wals of 
the alleged execution chamber in Krema II. Fred Leuchter saw fit to
attribute the indisputable presence of cyanide ions there to an
undocumented fumigation against the mid-1942 typhus epidemic, even
though the construction of Krema II was not begun until early 1943,
with the first gassing having taken place on March 15, 1943.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Sep  2 14:50:29 EDT 2001
Article: 954370 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ku Klux Klan has these kinda rules don't they?
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:19:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <310820012219266205%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b8f8e09_2@corp.newsgroups.com> <3B8F98AE.840BD260@earthlink.net> <310820011929071536%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B8FB98F.BEFB4@earthlink.net> <310820012016493677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B8FCDA9.CFDC8E0D@earthlink.net> <310820012122572341%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B8FDBAA.E3966C85@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B8FDBAA.E3966C85@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> "indisputable" presence? From what I recall of your own postings, it wasn't
> really
> MUCH of a presence. As Roth himself ticked off the results, in sample after
> sample, it was "no detection."
> 
> ====================================

Yes, indisputable presence. Both Leuchter and the Krakow team
demonstrated that there were places in both the fumgation chambers and
the gas chambers where _no_ traces of cyanide compounds were to be
found, while there were other places in both environmetns where they
were indisputably found.

This is the reason that Leuchter attributed the indisputable presence
of the cyanates detected in the former gas chamber to an anachronistic
and undocumented gassing during the mid-1942 typhus epidemic.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Sep  2 14:50:30 EDT 2001
Article: 954863 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sara Salzman Married a Nigger
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:55:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 11
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In article <1bbd7166e7678a13133613eeaca4fc36@freedom.gmsociety.org>, An
Metet  wrote:

> Jews are always promoting race mixing for everyone else
> but you will never see them doing such for themselves.

Your claim here and the claim made in the title of this thread are
contradictory. Just thought you might like to know.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Sep  2 14:50:30 EDT 2001
Article: 954898 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Kiev Massacre
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 21:26:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 41
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In article , Albrecht Kolthoff
 wrote:

> I the same book there are several testimonies of SS men participating at
> the Babi Yar mass killings. Here is an excerpt of the testimony of Kurt
> Werner, member of the SK 4a:
> 
>         Gleich nach meiner Ankunft im Exekutionsgelände mußte ich mich
>         zusammen mit anderen Kameraden nach unten in diese Mulde begeben.
>         Es dauerte nicht lange, und es wurden uns schon die ersten Juden
>         über die Schluchtabhänge zugeführt. Die Juden mußten sich mit dem
>         Gesicht zur Erde an die Muldenwände hinlegen. In der Mulde
>         befanden sich drei Gruppen mit Schützen, mit insgesamt etwa 12
>         Schützen. Gleichzeitig sind diesen Erschießungsgruppen von oben
>         her laufend Juden zugeführt worden. Die nachfolgenden Juden mußten
>         sich auf die Leichen der zuvor erschossenen Juden legen. Die
>         Schützen standen jeweils hinter den Juden und haben diese mit
>         Genickschüssen getötet.
>         (Schöne Zeiten, p. 69)
> 
> Now there's a job for you. Please translate these words:
> 
> Exekutionsgelände
> Schützen
> Erschießungsgruppen
> Leichen
> erschossenen
> Genickschüssen
> getötet

Morghus, we are still awaiting your translation of the above passage;
particularly of the three key sentences:

>         Gleichzeitig sind diesen Erschießungsgruppen von oben
>         her laufend Juden zugeführt worden. Die nachfolgenden Juden mußten
>         sich auf die Leichen der zuvor erschossenen Juden legen. Die
>         Schützen standen jeweils hinter den Juden und haben diese mit
>         Genickschüssen getötet.

Impatiently,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:40 EDT 2001
Article: 955094 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Kiev Massacre
Supersedes: <030920010728160837%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 07:33:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 41
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In article <73fedc95.0109021447.2a4b4587@posting.google.com>,
morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:



> > 
> > >         Gleichzeitig sind diesen Erschießungsgruppen von oben
> > >         her laufend Juden zugeführt worden. Die nachfolgenden Juden mußten
> > >         sich auf die Leichen der zuvor erschossenen Juden legen. Die
> > >         Schützen standen jeweils hinter den Juden und haben diese mit
> > >         Genickschüssen getötet.
> > 

> 
>      OK, here's my rather inept translation:
> 
>         "At the same time,  Jews were continuously brought from above
> to the shooters. The subsequent Jews were forced to lay down on the
> corpses of the previously shot Jews. The shooters stood behind and
> killed each Jew with a shot in the neck."
> 
>      Now, my question is: who wrote this obvious fabrication? 
> Certainly not any German who participated in any mass killing.  Babi
> Yar was supposed to involve many thousands of victims.  Are we
> supposed to believe about a dozen Germans shot each of the thousands
> of Jews individually by a neck shot?  This bogus "testimony" is just
> another one of the thousand-or-so fabrications trumped up by the
> victorious Allies, especially the Russian Bolsheviks, as evidence of
> German atrocities. There was no massacre at Babi Yar, at least not by
> the Germans, and the relentless posting of such clumsy claptrap
> strengthens the position of those of us who reject the Holocaust
> stories as nothing but vicious antiGerman propaganda.

Let's get to first things first. Your translation, while not perfect,
captured the essence of the original. The first sentence of the entire
text says that the events in question are taking place at an
"Exekutionsgelände". The activities being described are "Exekutionen".
They certainly don't sound like impoundments to me.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:40 EDT 2001
Article: 955159 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:30:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 30
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In article <3B939C96.48E8A53F@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> I am not about to offer arguments that the Holocaust did happen or did
> not happen - for the question has ceased to be of any interest to me.
> What I WOULD like to know is why America in the year 2001 should
> continue to be roiled by questions of what did or did not happen to
> Europe's Jews during the early 1940s, nearly 60 years ago.
> 
> If the Jews wish to keep up their perpetual moans and wails, let them.
> But it has to be made clear that these are the Jews' moans and wails;
> they are not America's.

The fact that you asked that question provides the answer. Study of the
Holocaust teaches us that even a seemingly civilized and cerebral
nation as the Germans can easily sink into a savagery as murderous and
primitive as anything on this earth. It shows us how thin the veneer of
"civilization" separating modern, supposedly cultivated men from
"barbarians" really is. Studying the antics of people such as David
Irving, Robert Faurisson, and Fred Leuchter show us how easily
historical facts can be denied, misrepresented, or misunderstood to
achieve devious ends.

The Holocaust is not just about Euroepan Jews nearly 60 years ago. The
Holocaust is about humanity, its strengths and its weaknesses. We learn
a lot about ourselves, including many things we would rather not know,
when study the details of the best documented genocide in history.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:40 EDT 2001
Article: 955174 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:42:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <030920011942325957%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <20010903113011.01564.00003454@mb-cf.aol.com>,
corneliusschaub@aol.com (CorneliusSchaub) wrote:

> The reason that the Holocaust is still discussed is because 
> it is the justification for Jewish power in America.  I think 
> the average American truly believes that the Jews have a right
> control America because they are a sacred people.  They 
> further believe that the Jews deserve to control America
> because of what they suffered in the Holocaust. 

Jewish "power" in America? America is a market economy and people vote
with their pocketbooks. If Jews occupy certain positions of power in
the US, it is because the overwhelmingly non-Jewish stockholders of the
companies they are heading, and the equally overwhelmingly non-Jewish
people who are consumers of the political or scholarly information they
are producing, are satisfied with the product.

In this forum Dr. William Pierce periodically calls for another kind of
America: one in which white Aryan men would reign supreme, "their"
women would be disenfranchized house slaves and baby-making machines,
Jews, blacks, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans as well other
undesirables and putative racial inferiors would be unmercifully
subjected to Holocaustial treatment Babi Yar style. Music and dance, I
remember reading in one of his tracts, would be limited to military
music, Wagner, square dancing, and variations on the reel. His world of
aggressive white supremacy is not limited to the United States. In a
recent commentary on the events in Zimbabwe he suggested that the
beleaguered white farmers should solve their problem by expelling or
extrerminating the black population of the country, and he accused the
Afrikaaners in South Africa of "softness" for not having used this
solution against the non-white majority in South Africa.

With such an alternative "product" to what the Jews are offering, it is
hardly surprising that Dr. Pierce's few followers usually wind up dead,
either through a self-inflected wound or consequent to justice meted
out by a highly unamused state.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:41 EDT 2001
Article: 955342 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:25:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article ,
cdhall_remove_this@and_this_pobox.com (Charles Don Hall) wrote:



> I finally worked out that Mr. Manilow is Jewish, so that's why Pierce hates 
> him so much. But I'm still not sure why he singled him out...Bob Dylan is 
> usually Jewish, and he's a much more obvious target... 
> 
> (Or maybe his point is that all "Jewish" music should be banned, even music 
> as white-bread and innocuous as Manilow's?)

Under the Nazis even music by childhood converts to Christianity such as
Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy was banned and burned for its alleged Jewish
sentimentality.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:41 EDT 2001
Article: 955343 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:48:17 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <73fedc95.0109031959.18a32106@posting.google.com>,
morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:

> xganon  wrote in message
news:...
>  
> > Mr. Phillips. You do not understand the traintrack of history.
> > 
> The holocaust happened, but it did not achieve anything close to the
> desired  results. The traintrack of history is the story of our (not
> your) White Aryan races killing off their racial inferiors and
> grabbing more of this planet, our  planet, for ourselves. In
> retrospect the Nazi holocaust of Jews was a dismal failure. We were
> supposed to kill off 12,000,000 European Jews and make Europe into a
> Jew-free pro-Aryan continent. We only succeeded in killing 6,000,000,
> and the Jews rule Europe as much as they rule the United States,
> Russia, Japan, and Australia. We were supposed to rule four
> continents, but the Jews called our bluff, as they say.
> > 
> >
> 
> 
>       Man, you really fell for it, didn't you?  You bought the whole
> Holocaust package.  You actually believe cultured and Christian
> Germans suddenly became crazed killers of innocent women and children
> almost overnight. You actually believe that Germans, who led the world
> in science and industry, who set the standards for music and the arts,
> the cultural leaders of the world, suddenly reverted to barbarism and
> bestiality.  You know nothing of the characteristics and spirit of the
> Germanic people.
>  
>      So you actually believe in the Holocaust.  We shouldn't be
> surprised: people like you, brimming over with blind and senseless
> hatred, are just the sort who can be manipulated into believing almost
> anything, no matter how nonsensical.  You are the type we can find on
> some roof waiting for spaceships to arrive, you are the sort who would
> follow Manson, or Moon, or one of those maharashi cult leaders.
> 
>      You claim to be a member of a unique and advanced white European
> ethnic group, yet you display the morals and sensitivity of a savage.
> You claim some sort of union with a superior race, but you expound the
> sentiments of an uncultured, uncouth, undeveloped cave dweller.  
> Here's a little piece of advice: go out into a quiet moonlit night and
> sit somewhere and look at the stars, relax, shed your stupid hatred,
> and think.

Statement of intent:
Source: http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

Wannsee Protocol
 
January 20, 1942; Translation



Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of
the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual
countries:



          Country                             Number

A.   Germany proper                          131,800
     Austria                                  43,700
     Eastern territories                     420,000
     General Government                    2,284,000
     Bialystok                               400,000
     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200
     Estonia         - free of Jews -
     Latvia                                    3,500
     Lithuania                                34,000
     Belgium                                  43,000
     Denmark                                   5,600
     France /  occupied territory            165,000
               unoccupied territory          700,000
     Greece                                   69,600
     Netherlands                             160,800
     Norway                                    1,300

B.   Bulgaria                                 48,000
     England                                 330,000
     Finland                                   2,300
     Ireland                                   4,000
     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000
     Albania                                     200
     Croatia                                  40,000
     Portugal                                  3,000
     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000
     Sweden                                    8,000
     Switzerland                              18,000
     Serbia                                   10,000
     Slovakia                                 88,000
     Spain                                     6,000
     Turkey (European portion)                55,500
     Hungary                                 742,800
     USSR                                  5,000,000
          Ukraine                   2,994,684
          White Russia
          excluding Bialystok                446,484


                         Total    over    11,000,000


Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to
be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews,
separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these
areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large
portion will be eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the
most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the
product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of
a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)



Source: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm
Statistics of The Holocaust


Country  Initial Jewish Pop. Est. % Killed   Est. no. Killed  No. of Survivors
POLAND            3,300,000  91%             3,000,000          300,000
USSR              3,020,000  36%             1,100,000        1,920,000
HUNGARY             800,000  74%               596,000          204,000
GERMANY             566,000  36%               200,000          366,000
FRANCE              350,000  22%                77,320          272,680
ROMANIA             342,000  84%               287,000           55,000
AUSTRIA             185,000  35%                65,000          120,000
LITHUANIA           168,000  85%               143,000           25,000
NETHERLANDS         140,000  71%               100,000           40,000
BOHEMIA & MORAVIA   118,310  60%                71,150           47,160
LATVIA               95,000  84%                80,000           15,000
SLOVAKIA             88,950  80%                71,000           17,950
YUGOSLAVIA           78,000  81%                63,300           14,700
GREECE               77,380  87%                67,000           10,380
BELGIUM              65,700  45%                28,900           36,800
ITALY                44,500  17%                 7,680           36,820
BULGARIA             50,000   0%                     0           50,000
DENMARK               7,800   0.8%                  60            7,740
ESTONIA               4,500  44%                 2,000            2,500
LUXEMBOURG            3,500  55%                 1,950            1,550
FINLAND               2,000    .03%                  7            1,993
NORWAY                1,700  45%                   762              938
TOTAL             9,508,340  63%             5,962,129        3,546,211



Now, if what you claim is correct, how do you account for the Nazis' clear
statement of purpose and for the statistics for the 22 countries affected
by the Holocaust. If this were all fabrication and lies, surely the
government of at least one of these countries, the Netherlands, for
example, would have come forth and stated that claims being made about the
decimation of its Jewish population during the war are incorrect and
unfounded. Instead, what we get for the Netherlands is _The Diary of Anne
Frank_, a day-by-day account of the fate of eight Dutch Jews hiding from
the Nazis. All eight are arrested and seven are either killed outright by
the Nazis or die of disease and poor treatment in the camps before the end
of the war. Only Otto Frank, Anne's father, survives, reduced to a walking
skeleton. The Holocaust mortality rate on the inhabitants of het
achterhuis, the secret annex, is thus 87.5% compared to an average of 70%
for Dutch Jews.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:41 EDT 2001
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:12:19 +0300
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In article <3B93C7D6.7EBBEFE4@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > Jewish "power" in America? America is a market economy and people vote
> > with their pocketbooks. If Jews occupy certain positions of power in
> > the US, it is because the overwhelmingly non-Jewish stockholders of the
> > companies they are heading, and the equally overwhelmingly non-Jewish
> > people who are consumers of the political or scholarly information they
> > are producing, are satisfied with the product.
> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> HOW the Jews acquired their overweening power over the media is immaterial.
> The operative fact is that they HAVE that power, that they are using to
> poisonous effect on our culture, our traditions, and our sense of
> ourselves. It MUST be taken from them,  market economy be damned and
> property rights be damned. It MUST be taken from them.
> 
> ===========================================

The only way it can be aken away from them is by providing a superior
product. A culture is redefined by each generation of people livign within
it, and contemporary American culture appears to satisfy the neads of
contemporary Americans. Every generation reviews the trditions it has
inherited from its ancestros, and many aspects of American tradition,
including the leading positiobn given to white Aryan males, seem to be
irrelevant in today's radically different conditions. Sense of self is
also a problem. Two generations ago American media and entertainment dealt
almost exclusively with the lives and problems of middle-class white,
Anglo-Saxon, Protestant heterosexuals, e.g. the Nelson family. That might
have been a reflection of the self some people might have wanted to
believe was America, but it excluded quite a lot of what was America. Let
us say that contemporary American entertainment reflects a much truer
picture of the diversity that makes up contemporary America, and people
who preferred a fictionalized and "sanitized" picture of what is out there
are disturbed.

Once again, if you think you have a superior product, find investors and
start up a company. Since you claim the majority thinks as you do, you
should make a killing. As far as I know, Dr. Pierce, who like to rant on
and on about these things, is debt ridden and a laughing stock. His
alternative would be rejectd by 99.9% of Americans.

> >
> > In this forum Dr. William Pierce periodically calls for another kind of
> > America: one in which white Aryan men would reign supreme
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> And rightly so.
> 
> ============================

Why should white Aryan men, less than 10% of the American population,
reign supreme?

> > , "their"
> > women would be disenfranchized house slaves and baby-making machines,
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I do not know exactly what Pierce has in mind but I don't think it would
> amount to that. Under National Socialism women will have esteem,
> protection, and security; they will NOT have power. That's out.
> 
> Career girls will be viewed very much askance. "Glass ceilings" will not be
> eliminated; they will be greatly reinforced. THe individual's career
> aspirations wil be regarded as secondary to the perceived long-term good of
> Society.
> 

As I said, women, the majority of the population, would be relegated to
the status of homemakers and baby-makers. It's no wonder that your movment
has so few followers.

> ===============================================
> 
> >
> > Jews, blacks, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans as well other
> > undesirables and putative racial inferiors would be unmercifully
> > subjected to Holocaustial treatment Babi Yar style.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I am unaware of Pierce having called for any such thing.

Then you've never read his most notorious work: _The Turner Diaries_:

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/hi/themadmoose/tdch22.html

Coming through the mountains just north of Los Angeles we encountered a
long column of marchers, heavily guarded by GI's and Organization
personnel. As we drove slowly past, I observed the prisoners closely,
trying to decide what they were. They didn't seem to be Blacks or
Chicanos, and yet only a few of them appeared to be Whites. Many of the
faces were distinctly Jewish, while others had features or hair suggesting
a Negroid taint. The head of the column turned off the main roadway into a
little-used ranger trail which disappeared into a boulder-strewn canyon,
while the tail stretched for several miles back toward the city. There may
have been as many as 50,000 marchers, representing all ages and both
sexes, just in the portion of the column we passed.
  Back at HQ I inquired about the strange column. No one was sure,
although the consensus was that they were the Jews and the mixedbreeds of
too light a hue to be included with the evacuees who were sent east. I
remember now something which puzzled me a few days ago: the separation of
the very light Blacks-the almost Whites, the octoroons and quadroons, the
unclassifiable mongrels from various Asian and southern climes-from the
others during the concentration and evacuation operations.
  And I think I now understand. The clearly distinguishable nonwhite are
the ones we want to increase the racial pressure on the Whites outside
California. The presence of more almost-White mongrels would merely
confuse the issue-and there is always the danger that they will later
"pass" as White. Better to deal with them now, as soon as we get our hands
on them. I have a suspicion their trip into that canyon north of here will
be a one-way affair!


Or,
Source. http://www.angelfire.com/hi/themadmoose/tdch23.html


August 1, 1993. Today has been the Day of the Rope-a grim and bloody day,
but an unavoidable one. Tonight, for the first time in weeks, it is quiet
and totally peaceful throughout all of southern California. But the night
is filled with silent horrors; from tens of thousands of lampposts, power
poles, and trees throughout this vast metropolitan area the grisly forms
hang.
  In the lighted areas one sees them everywhere. Even the street signs at
intersections have been pressed into service, and at practically every
street corner I passed this evening on my way to HQ there was a dangling
corpse, four at every intersection. Hanging from a single overpass only
about a mile from here is a group of about 30, each with an identical
placard around its neck bearing the printed legend, "I betrayed my race."
Two or three of that group had been decked out in academic robes before
they were strung up, and the whole batch are apparently faculty members
>from the nearby UCLA campus.
  In the areas to which we have not yet restored electrical power the
corpses are less visible, but the feeling of horror in the air there is
even worse than in the lighted areas. I had to walk through a
two-block-long, unlighted residential section between HQ and my living
quarters after our unit meeting tonight. In the middle of one of the
unlighted blocks I saw what appeared to be a person standing on the
sidewalk directly in front of me. As I approached the silent figure, whose
features were hidden in the shadow of a large tree overhanging the
sidewalk, it remained motionless, blocking my way.
  Feeling some apprehension, I slipped my pistol out of its holster. Then,
when I was within a dozen feet of the figure, which had been facing away
>from me, it began turning slowly toward me. There was something
indescribably eerie about the movement, and I stopped in my tracks as the
figure continued to turn. A slight breeze rustled the foliage overhead,
and suddenly a beam of moonlight broke through the leaves and fell
directly on the silently turning shape before me.
  The first thing I saw in the moonlight was the placard with its legend
in large, block letters: "I defiled my race." Above the placard leered the
horribly bloated, purplish face of a young woman, her eyes wide open and
bulging, her mouth agape. Finally I could make out the thin, vertical line
of rope disappearing into the branches above. Apparently the rope had
slipped a bit or the branch to which it was tied had sagged, until the
woman's feet were resting on the pavement, giving the uncanny appearance
of a corpse standing upright of its own volition.
  I shuddered and quickly went on my way. There are many thousands of
hanging female corpses like that in this city tonight, all wearing
identical placards around their necks. They are the White women who were
married to or living with Blacks, with Jews, or with other non-White
males.
  There are also a number of men wearing the l-defiled-my-race placard,
but the women easily outnumber them seven or eight to one. On the other
hand, about ninety per cent of the corpses with the I-betrayed-my-race
placards are men, and overall the sexesseem to be roughly balanced.
  

Moving into the realm of fact, in a recent broadcast Pierce offered his
own simple solution to the problems in Southern Africa:

Source: http://www.natvan.com/pub/081801.txt


I used to tell my South African visitors, "It may be that the Black
terrorists are no real military threat to you, but the only viable
long-range solution for you is to get rid of all the Blacks and other
non-Whites in your country. Do whatever you must do -- force them out,
sterilize them, kill them -- otherwise
you will lose your country."


> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> However it will be
> proclaimed loud and clear that America is a White Man's country and other
> races will have no "rights" beyond those that white people choose to allow
> them.
> 
> =============================================

How does a minority of some ten per cent and falling get the right to have
such a say? Why does anyone have to take the seriously? And since this
program is strongly anti-femininst, women can always moderate things by
using the ancient and always effective Lysistrata weapon. Your cause is
lost, and it becomes a greater laughing stock every day.

> 
> > Music and dance, I
> > remember reading in one of his tracts, would be limited to military
> > music, Wagner, square dancing, and variations on the reel.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I don't believe Pierce has proposed anything that extreme. However I
> consider it imperative that much so-called "music" of Negro origin be
> extirpated from the culture.
> 
> ==========================================

A poster has found the quote I had in mind. He wants to ensure that white
young people no longer dance in "negroid gyrations", and wants their
dancing to be limited to white dances such as the reel, the jig, the
polka, and the waltz.


> > His world of
> > aggressive white supremacy is not limited to the United States. In a
> > recent commentary on the events in Zimbabwe he suggested that the
> > beleaguered white farmers should solve their problem by expelling or
> > extrerminating the black population of the country,
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Are you demanding that the white farmers permit property they have spent
> decades building be plundered and despoiled, that they should permit their
> women to be raped, permit themselves to be murdered. That is what we have
> seen it to amount to.

In a country with 300,000 whites and 13,000,000 blacks the whites have
taken over 70% of the land, incluing almost all of the most fertile land.
You object to the "alien" Jews "taking over" the media and power
structures. Why should not the 13,000,000 blacks in Zimbabwe tale equal
umbrage at a situation where a group of aliens cam in, plowed under the
villages, farm, and culture, and reduced them to the status of landless
itinerant labor in their own country? You express concern at the twenty or
so white farmers that have been murdered so far, yet you don't understand
that nobody gives up their land and culture without a fight. The hundreds
of thousands of Africans killed when the Europeans moved in and started
colonizing the place don't seem to count in your mind.


> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> There is no posibility that white people and black people can live together
> peacably on a basis of equality.
> 
> =========================================

Of course there is. In Namibia, for example, the transition from white to
black rule has gone without a hitch. Despite all the bad press it has been
getting, South Africa has also emerged from apartheid more intact than
most people predicted it would.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:42 EDT 2001
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Kiev Massacre
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:52:25 +0300
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In article <73fedc95.0109031352.5f239806@posting.google.com>,
morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:


> 
>       First, as I have alread said, I believe the "testimony" is
> fraudulent. It was written by someone other than a true native German,
> probably one of the many sleazy translators carefully chosen by the
> Allied prosecutorial staff. 

You do not have the competence in German to make such a judgement.
Moreover, this particular testimony was made by a German testifying bfore
German court in 1964, long after the military tribunals had been
disbanded.

> Those intrepid interpreters were very
> fond of telling everyone at the hearings who didn't speak the language
> that the German word exekutieren really meant to kill. Every time they
> found the word in a document they inserted the English word execute
> giving a homicidal meaning to an otherwise innocuous message.

Now you are improvising on the basis of your false attribution of the
testimony to something presented before the Allied Military Tribunal.

If what you are saying is true, please account for the use of the verb
"exekutieren" in the following brief excerpt:

Source: http://www.infolinks.de/an/1999/09/016.htm


»1. Alle Nicht-Weißen zurück nach Afrika, Asien, Arabien zu verschiffen 2.
Die IRA und alle zu zerschlagen, die britische Soldaten und Zivilisten
töten. 3. Alle Schwulen zu exekutieren. 4. Alle weißen Rassenvermischer zu
exekutieren. 5. Alle Juden in der Regierung, den Medien, den Künsten, den
Berufsgruppen auszumerzen. Alle Juden zu exekutieren, die aktiv dazu
beigetragen haben, die weiße Rasse zu schädigen und den Rest in Lager zu
sperren, bis wir eine Endlösung für den ewigen Juden gefunden haben.« 


The last sentence, "Alle Juden zu exekutieren, die aktiv dazu beigetragen
haben, die weiße Rasse zu schädigen und den Rest in Lager zu sperren, bis
wir eine Endlösung für den ewigen Juden gefunden haben." is a very strong
argument against your thesis about the meaning of "exekutieren", because
it gives "exekutieren" as an alternative to "in Lager zu sperren".

> 
>     They even did it during the live testimony.  Thus we read the
> testimony of a German soldier telling the court that all Jews were
> impounded, and the interpreter telling the court that all Jews were
> murdered.  Judge Musmano even commented on the number of times the
> Germans used the terms "exekutieren" and "liquidieren" in their
> messages about Jews. He was appalled; he couldn't understand how the
> Germans could speak so coldly of mass murder in their correspondence
> and their testimony.  What is hard to understand is how a sitting
> judge could be so easily duped.  But then, millions of people have
> been duped just as easily all these years.

You are flying on automatic, unrestrained automatic pilot and improvising
shamelessly. The German soldiers spoke so coldly about mass murder in
their correspondence and testimony because they were cold mass-murderers
who had been brainwashed by Nazi propaganda that the Jews they were
killing were not really human beings, but some sub-humanoid life form.


>     One thing is certain: many language "experts" who promote the
> Holocaust have access to German dictionaries from the 1930's which
> should show that "exekutieren" and "liquidieren" did not mean kill, or
> murder, or shoot, or gas. They deliberately ignore those definitions,
> instead reciting modern definitions which have been altered by time
> and usage to include homicide as part of the meanings of those words.

This claim is manifestly false.

> 
>    There is an easy way to settle this issue.  I'm sure Mr. Holman has
> access to one of those old German dictionaries published in the 1930's
> at his University. They are devilishly hard to read since they are
> printed in that old style print, but that should be no great obstacle
> for someone familiar with the language. Perhaps he would be kind
> enough to post the complete entries under "exekutieren" and
> "liquidieren" from those old dictionaries so we can all learn exactly
> what those words meant at that time and how they were used.  What
> about it, Mr. Holman, are you willing to do us all that favor?

I couldn't find a dictionary from the 1930s, but I managed to dig up one
>from the 1920s which, I hope, will suffice. The dictionary is:

Dr. Joh. Christ. Aug. Heyses allgemeines verdeutschendes and erklärendes
Frendwörterbuch, 21e Original-Ausgabe. Hannover, Hahnsche Buchhandlung,
1922.

In other words, this is a dictionary devoted to expainingnthe usage of
words felt by German soeakers to be of foreign origin.

For _exekutieren_ it states (pg. 256):

exekutieren (fr. exécuter), ausführen, verrichten; vortragen (ein
Musikstück); einen Befehl vollziehen, vollstrecken; durch gerichtliche
Zwangsmassregeln beitreiben; einen Missetäter hinrichten.

For _liquidieren_ it states (pg. 499):

liquidieren, nl (liquidare) auseinandersetzen (eine Forderung); in
Richtigkeit bringen, abzahlen; das zu Bezahlende einzeln verzeichnen,
Gebühren berechnen; Geschäft auflösen, bei Auflösung einer
Handelsgesellschaft die Geschäfte ordnen.


The meaning "einen Missetäter hinrichten" for _exekutieren_, the only
example given with a [+human] direct object, is as clear and explicit as
can be. 

For the verb _liquidieren_ the situation is mnore complex. As I have
written before, the verb was originally a financial term and financial and
commercial meanings are the only ones given here. However, in Russian, the
cognate verb _likvidirovat'_, which also originally had only financial
meanings began to be members of the capitalist class consequent to the
Bolshevik revolution. This metaphorical usage entered the languages of
Europe following the Russian example during the 1920s. By the late 1930s
it was well known and common:

Source:
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00133955?query_type=word&queryword=liquidate&edition=2e&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=bdsv-0eRzIK-4014


liquidate, vb.



    7. [after Russ. likvidírovat´ to liquidate, wind up.] To put an end
to, abolish; to stamp out, wipe out; to kill. 

1924  1924 Yale Rev. XIII. 477 In this way the ŒLabor Opposition¹, the
ŒWorkers Pravda¹, and a few other recalcitrant groups were all
Œliquidated¹. 1926 C. SHERIDAN Turkish Kaleidoscope xvi. 125 The evening
paper, L'Akcham, came out with large headlines: ŒHow to Liquidate a
Strike¹. 1930 Economist 1 Nov. (Russ. Suppl.) 2/2 Only in 1929, when the
growth of the Socialist section of agriculture was enabling the State to
become independent of the supplies of the Kulaks, could the Government
begin to Œliquidate¹ them. 1939 V. A. DEMANT Relig. Prospect iv. 90 The
Trotskyists..are Œliquidated¹ as being insufficiently dialectical to see
that the policy of the Russian State at any moment has absolute finality.
1943 C. S. LEWIS Abolition of Man iii. 37 Once we killed bad men: now we
liquidate unsocial elements. 1957 PARTRIDGE English gone Wrong ii. 31
Liquidate, therefore, is an erudite synonym of Œto wind up¹, hence, in its
euphemistic transferred sense, it means Œto eradicate in a thoroughly
ruthless manner¹, Œto destroy, especially by mass murder¹. 1970 Nature 26
Dec. 1248/2 All existing sources of industrial pollution are to be
Œliquidated¹. 1971 Sunday Times 13 June 12/6 When the army units fanned
out in Dacca on the evening of March 25..many of them carried lists of
people to be liquidated.



Note the examples from 1943 and 1957:

1943 C. S. LEWIS Abolition of Man iii. 37 Once we killed bad men: now we
liquidate unsocial elements. 

1957 PARTRIDGE English gone Wrong ii. 31 Liquidate, therefore, is an
erudite synonym of Œto wind up¹, hence, in its euphemistic transferred
sense, it means Œto eradicate in a thoroughly ruthless manner¹, Œto
destroy, especially by mass murder¹.

Hope that helped.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep  5 08:32:42 EDT 2001
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Kiev Massacre
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:26:59 +0300
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In article <73fedc95.0109041442.5b19a60f@posting.google.com>,
morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:

> holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote in message
news:...
> 
> I couldn't find a dictionary from the 1930s, but I managed to dig up
> one
> from the 1920s which, I hope, will suffice. The dictionary is:
> Dr. Joh. Christ. Aug. Heyses allgemeines verdeutschendes and
> erklärendes
> Frendwörterbuch, 21e Original-Ausgabe. Hannover, Hahnsche
> Buchhandlung,
> 1922.
> In other words, this is a dictionary devoted to expainingnthe usage of
> words felt by German soeakers to be of foreign origin.
> For _exekutieren_ it states (pg. 256):
> exekutieren (fr. exécuter), ausführen, verrichten; vortragen (ein
> Musikstück); einen Befehl vollziehen, vollstrecken; durch gerichtliche
> Zwangsmassregeln beitreiben; einen Missetäter hinrichten.
> _________________________________________________
> 
> 
>    Let's look at the first suggested usage from this work:
> "ausführen."  That means "to drive out," or "to export."  That is what
> the Germans meant by the use of the word "exekutieren": the Jews were
> being driven out, exported, forced out--not murdered.
> 
> _________________________________________________

No. The verb _ausführen_ has both abstract and concrete meanings:

Source. http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/

Deutsch  English
24 Ergebnisse  24 results
Ausführen {n}  performing
ausführen                   to accomplish
ausführen                   to achieve
ausführen                   to expedite
ausführen                   to obey
ausführen                   to export
Auftrag ausführen           to execute an order
in die Praxis umsetzen; verwirklichen; ausführen   to put into practice
ausführen; durchführen; ablaufen       to execute
ausführen; tun                         to do
ausführen; vollbringen; funktionieren  to perform
jemanden ausführen                     to take someone out
einen Plan ausführen                   to carry out a plan
einen Hund ausführen; Gassi gehen      to take a dog for a walk
benutzen; ausführen                    to use
beschleunigen; ausführen; fördern      to expedite
darlegen; ausführen; auseinander setzen; auseinandersetzen [alt]  to expose
durchführen; ausführen; bewirken       to effect
erläutern; erklären; darlegen; ausführen  to explain
erreichen; leisten; ausführen; vollenden; erhalten       to achieve
realisieren; einführen; ausführen; durchführen           to implement
verrichten; leisten; machen; tun; ausführen; durchführen to perform
verwirklichen; realisieren; ausführen; durchführen to realize; to realise [Br.]
wieder ausführen; wieder exportieren                     to re-enter
************************************************************************

The verb _ausführen_ is given as the most general sense and should be
understood here as 'implement' or 'put into practice'

> For _liquidieren_ it states (pg. 499):
> liquidieren, nl (liquidare) auseinandersetzen (eine Forderung); in
> Richtigkeit bringen, abzahlen; das zu Bezahlende einzeln verzeichnen,
> Gebühren berechnen; Geschäft auflösen, bei Auflösung einer
> Handelsgesellschaft die Geschäfte ordnen.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> 
> 
>     As we can see from the above explanation, the German word
> "liquidieren" did not suggest murder, or killing, or violence.  The
> word was used to describe the winding up of affairs, the dissolution
> of an entity such as the Jewish community.  When considering the use
> of the word in combination with the term "exekutieren" we can see the
> Germans were describing the total expulsion of the Jewish people from
> the German sphere of influence.

As I wrote earlier, the word had acquired the metaphorical meaning of
'kill' in the 1920s. The same holds for Swedish likvidera, Finnish
likvidoida, etc. All acquired this homicidal meaning following Russian
usage.



>   By the way, Mr. Holman, thanks for the effort. I couldn't find a
> 1930's dictionary either.  The only works I could find from that era
> were old German/English dictionaries which gave only single word
> synonyms. They more or less supported my contention that "exekutieren"
> as used by the Germans in 1940 meant "seize," or "export," but there
> was nothing about "liquidieren."  I didn't think the information
> contained in them was clear or convincing enough to make a copies. I
> notice David Irving couldn't produce such a dictionary at his trial in
> the Lipstadt case, so maybe such works are rare.

Thanks for the thanks. But you really need to do some work on your
comprehension of German.

Here are a few more examples of the two verbs and their nominal derivatives:


exekutieren:

Und genau das war beim Nürnberger Tribunal für die USA der Anlass, die
Naziführer zu verurteilen und zu exekutieren

Texas ist seit 1992, mit Ausnahme des Jahres 1996, (nur 3) 'Spitzenreiter'
(im Jahr 2000, 37 Exekutionen). 

Helfen Sie Daniel Hauser in Florida Jeb Bush (Bruder von George Bush in
Texas) will ihn exekutieren. 

Was würde die USA tun, wenn das Volk der Gegner der Todesstrafe für jede
Exekution an beliebigen Orten der usa einen Richter oder Polizisten
exekutieren würde? 


liquidieren:

Wie sie einen Rivalen liquidieren. 

Die "Liquidierung" hatte das MfS den Dissidenten zugedacht, also Personen
mit einer "verfestigten feindlichnegativen Grundhaltung gegenüber der
sozialistischen Staats- und Gesellschaftsordnung". 

In der kalten Sprache des Geheimdienstes wird erläutert, was für den Tag X
mit den Internierten geplant war: "ihre Liquidierung/Ausschaltung auf
besonderen Befehl ... wenn es die Lage erfordert". 

«Es war ein Mordkommando der PKK, das mich liquidieren wollte», sagt er,
der heute versteckt in Frankreich lebt.

Und die Vernichtung solcher Kritiker erfolgt nach einem immer gleichen
Rezept, das schon Hitler gegen seine Gegner und die Juden angewendet hat:
zuerst eine verleumderische Hetzkampagne der regimetreuen Medien solange,
bis die systematisch indoktrinierte Öffentlichkeit tatsächlich glaubt, es
handle sich um gefährliche Feinde des Staates, die dringend liquidiert
werden müssten.

*********************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:21 EDT 2001
Article: 955582 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:11:09 +0300
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In article <3B941D01.92083D76@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I cannot speak for Pierce. While a National Socialist govt would probably ban
> any public performances of such stuff it would probably not overconcern itself
> with what people listen to in the privacy of their homes.
> 
> =============================

That would amount to hiding the corrupt influences behind closed doors,
sweeping the problem under the rug, so to speak, rather than
extirpating them completely. Even 1930s dictatorships knew how to
ensure that people didn't listen to foreign radio broadcasts, read
foreign or forbidden publications, or discuss forbidden ideas even in
private. Ray Bradbury's _Fahrenheit 451_ tells of a future dystopia in
which the fire department spends most of its time searching out and
burning libraries. Your National Socialist government would really be a
milquetoast if it couldn't devise a final solution to rid society of
what it considered to be the plague of forbidden thoughts.

Of course I don't understand how a government so concerned with
censoring ideas and forms of expression could lay claim to being
American in any way, shape, or form.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:21 EDT 2001
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Richard Phillips should be shot
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Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:33:39 +0300
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In article <3B961DD0.50A40C9@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> =============================================
> Phillips



> 

What we DO need are people who can argue for our cause in language that > does NOT have that effect on people. > ========================= You really don't understand, Richard. Like it or not, "Racemaster" is accusing you of Jewish media domination. You are arguing that you, a Jew as far as "Racemaster" is concerned, can best contribute to the cause by dominating the media. Why should the cause have a Jew dominate the media in order to combat Jewish media domination? You've used some pretty wild reasoning and argumentation in the past, but this takes the cake. > ============================================= > Phillips > > I believe I can do this and that is my value to the cause. > ========================= "Racemaster" seems to think that you would be of most value to the cause by not involving yourself in something that by definition excludes you, shutting up, and going away. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:22 EDT 2001 Article: 956674 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!xmission!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Why Richard Phillips is correctly referred to as a liar Supersedes: <070920011855394891%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:39:37 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 113 Message-ID: <070920012039370030%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <9b318d905df4dbc3092634a57a611a03@xganon.com> <3B9674F7.CA02C5D0@earthlink.net> <9n8m4n$lfh$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B97E313.84C35DD7@earthlink.net> <3B97F9BB.8AA8EE74@earthlink.net> <3B985DF2.17DB99BF@earthlink.net> <3B98D7D2.E4634593@earthlink.net> <3B98DE26.EE76273B@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 999884376 26253 128.214.199.213 (7 Sep 2001 17:39:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 2001 17:39:36 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:538750 alt.revisionism:956674 In article <3B98DE26.EE76273B@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > ====================================================== > Phillips > > Jeffrey has, for the past two or three years been chanting his mantra: > 'Phillips is > a liar." He will continue doing this for at least another ten years, possibly > more. > But after he makes his final chant, the fact will still remain: he has never > in all > this time presented one scrap of convincing physical evidence for the > existence and > operation of mass execution gas chambers. > > ==================================== Wrong. Jeffrey, I, and many others have presented and discussed in detail lots of convincing physical evidence, including the evidence presented and discussed in the botched Leuchter Report and the more competently conducted Cracow Report. You have rejected what we have presented as non-convincing, regularly without offering any plausible alternative explanation. Mainstream historians as well as courts of law in Germany, Poland, the United Kingdom, and other countries have, ever since 1945, when the first forensic examinations were performed at the ruins of the Auschwitz gas chambers, regarded this physical evidence as corroborating and supporting other architectural, testimonial, and documentary evidence that the structures in question were indeed designed and used for the mass gassing of human beings. You, in turn, have not been able to account for the undeniable physical evidence that cyanide compounds were found on the structures in question which are consistent with their having been repeatedly exposed to lethal levels of cyanide. Fred Leuchter, in a report which has never been accepted as having any evidentiary value by any court of law in any country, had to explain this undeniable evidence as the result of a single hypothetical undocumented gassing which allegedly took place about a year before the building was constructed and first used. You have explained the courts refusal to accept the Leuchter Report as well as the judgement handed down by a British court based partially on expert testimony presented by some of the leading authorities in 20th century German history as the work of the Jews. In any discipline that uses the scientific method the principle of Occam's Razor applies: if there is a choice between two alternative explanations of a situation or phenomenon, the one which is less complex and more internally consistent is to be favored. The explanation that we have given is that the Auschwitz gas chambers are the final evolutionary stage of Nazi gassing policies that date back to the T-4 euthanasia program and the Action Reinhard extermination centers, and that architectural documents, testimony by perpetrators and eyewitnesses, and correspondence between concentration camp directors as well as with the manufacterers of Zyklon-B all consistently support this claim. We have presented physical evidence that the structures of former gas chambers still retain discernable traces of cyanide compounds after half a century of exposure to the elements, as well as extremely detailed descriptions of the manner in which the gas chambers were used by people such as Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, and Tauber and Olère, Sonderkommando members, who were at opposite ends of the chain of command. Even minute details of what Hoess, Tauber, and Olère testified or wrote are internally consistent and receive further support in the testimony of other people who were there. Your side, in turn, claims that the diagrams are not detailed enough, that the structures were used for absurd purposes such as fumigating corpses before they were burned, that the testimony of Hoess, Tauber, and Olère, among others, was either extracted through torture or threats, or that they were all lying. You have explained the presence of cyanide by referring to undocumented gassings that would have taken place while the buildings were still on the drawing board. You have refused to recognize the clear administrative and historical links between T-4 and the Action Reinhard camps, the vast amount of documentary evidence notwithstanding, nor have you even been willing to admit that the Germans would have had no reservations about using poison gas to kill Jews since they are on record, with photographs and films, as having used it to kill tens of thousands of their own citizens in structures which can be shown to be functional predecessors of the large gas chambers used at Auschwitz. You have been reduced to explaining the presence of higher concentrations of cyanide compounds in fumigation chambers than in gas chambers as a consequence of the "fact" that it takes far more cyanide to kill people than it does to kill lice, something that David Irving trumpeted at the press conference introducing the Leuchter Report, when the opposite is provably true. In actual fact, your side has not been able to come up with _any_ credible explanation for the considerable concentrations of cyanides found in some of the ruins of the walls and ventilation systems of Krema II, despite their having been exposed to the elements for half a century. Once again your singular lack of consistency and your inability to put forward a cogent explanatory model accounting for the empirical facts is interpreted as somehow being the consequence of Jewish control of the courts, media, and universities. So, the question is not one of producing convincing physical evidence, that we have done in abundance, and this evidence has convinced historians, including one-time denier David Irving of late, as well as courts of law in several countries. The question, if you remain unconvinced, is to give an alternative account which could explain the empirical facts in a better and more logical way than the explanation that we present: the Germans of the late 1930s were acknowledged world leaders in the use of poison gas to kill people, and they exploited this knowledge to develop techniques and facilities, documenting their use in photographs and films, to kill their own citizens as well as, later and using the experience gained gassing their own people, Jews, Gypsies, and Soviet POWs, at places specially designed and built for exterminating the human beings sent to them as undesirables. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:22 EDT 2001 Article: 957136 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Why Richard Phillips isn't able to comprehend evidence Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 13:51:26 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 155 Message-ID: <080920011351266044%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <9b318d905df4dbc3092634a57a611a03@xganon.com> <3B9674F7.CA02C5D0@earthlink.net> <9n8m4n$lfh$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B97E313.84C35DD7@earthlink.net> <3B97F9BB.8AA8EE74@earthlink.net> <3B985DF2.17DB99BF@earthlink.net> <9naqta$88c$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <9nba8o$3jc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B9932D9.6C19C232@earthlink.net> <3B995159.3DFE46F2@earthlink.net> <3B9962D0.E219AD7D@earthlink.net> <3B99844E.5CFDBD2C@earthlink.net> <3B99ABAC.6528F141@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 999946287 2453 128.214.199.213 (8 Sep 2001 10:51:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 2001 10:51:27 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:538889 alt.revisionism:957136 In article <3B99ABAC.6528F141@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > ================================================ > Phillips > > Uh uh. Your Krakow Report HAS TO STAND BY ITSELF as a solid piece of > evidence. When you conjoin > one half-assed piece of evidence with another half-assed piece of evidence, > you don't get a > whole ass. You get two half-asses. Two half-asses, if one is a left cheek and one a right one, gives you a fully functional ass. History and forensic science rarely have the luxury of finding smoking guns or windfall pieces of evidence such as a surveillance video documenting a crime or historical event from start to finish. Even when there is a smoking gun, indisputable such as Lee Harvey Oswald's mail-order rifle and the Zupruder film documenting the Kennedy assassination, there can be room for interpretation and alternative theories. > > Your eyewitnesses were either self-inflating fantasts, professional > "witnesses" available for a > price, Jewish sonderkommandos who'd testify to anything to save their > worthless hides, or Nazis > forced into it by either torture or threats to turn thein wives and children > over to the > Russkies. But there's no need to take my word. Yad Vashem itself has admitted > that half of them > cannot be relied on. That is a blanket statement, which, of course, implies that half of them _can_ be relied on. Why do you insist on implying that Jewish Sonderkommandos were in a position which necessitated their saving their "worthless hides"? They were people who were _forced_ to do the things that they did, they had no reason to testify falsely to save themselves. Quite the opposite: they understood that, having survived against all the odds, they had the responsibility to hand down their experiences to posterity. Hoess, who was mishandled when he was captured after several months of evading arrest and lying about his identity even after capture, testified at Nuremberg in the capacity of an expert witness for his superier, Ernst Kaltenbrunner. This was hadly a situation in which it would have been to his disadvantage to tell the truth: his purpose was not to deny what had happened but rather to show that he and Kaltenbrunner were merely functionaries carrying out orders coming from far higher along the chain of command. At Hoess's own 1947 trial in Cracow the results of a forensic examination conducted on the Auschwitz gas chambers by DSr. Jan Robel of the Cracow Forensic Institute were used as part of the evidence which convicted him. After he was convicted and sentenced to death, Hoess, who by this point had nothing to lose, unburdened his conscience and wrote a detailed account of what had been going on at Auschwitz and other extermination centers as his memoirs. So what you have just written boils down to foolishness: 1. Even if half the witnesses are unreliable, half of them are. The job of the courts and of the historians is to use the testimony of witnesses and other evidence to determine who is reliable and who is not. 2. The surviving members of the Sonderkommandos were not in danger of being punished for what they had been forced to do, so they had no reason to "testify to anything to save their worthless hides". They were not testifying to defend themselves, but rather to document what had been done to them. 3. People in a position to know, such as Hoess, Kaltenbrunner, and of course Adolf Eichmann, later, all consistently testified in minute detail that mass gassings were taking place at Auschwitz and other places. You cannot simply dismiss every word of the testimony of people who were key figures in the actual implementation of processes, the existence of which is strongly supported by other evidence, including physical evidence, from other independent sources. > > As for your Nazi documentation, of what possible use is it when the two sides > cannot even agree > on what the words meant. That is a red herring. David Irving purposely mistranslates words, as was demonstrated during his trial. There is no serious dispute among people with expertise in German about the meaning of words such as Ausrotten, which were used in their normal meaning, nor does anyone but obfuscators argue that the Nazis used code words such as Sonderbehandlung and Judenumsiedlung as crude euphemisms for the operation against European Jewry. > > Now as for you Krakow Report vintage 1994, just exactly what dose it convey > to us that the > thoroughly-demolished 1990 report does not. > > =========================== The 1994 Krakow Report, as you should know very well by now, indicates that: 1. Cyanide compounds do not form on all surfaces subjected to lethal concentrations of HCN. Both the fumigation chambers and the former gas chambers have places where cyanide compounds are found in abundance, as well as places where they are not found at all. Thus, the presence or absence of cyanide compounds in a given sample is not in itself a totally reliable index of whether the sample was exposed to a lethal concentration of cyanide. 2. The formation and retention of cyanide compounds depends on numerous factors. A simple comparision of the amount of cyanide compounds found in places where CO2 was present as opposed to absent during the formation process, which were exposed to high concentrations for long intervals of time, as opposed to lower concentrastions for much shorter intervals of time, and which were protected from or exposed to the elements since 1944, is of little value when trying to determine their past history with respect to exposure to the gas. 3. Places known never to have been exposed to cyanide, show no traces of cyanide compound, while places exposed to it only once, in conjunction with either a single fumigation during the mid-1942 typhus epidemic or the first experimental gassing of Soviet POWs with Zykon-B in September, 1941, show zero or barely detectable trace amounts of cyanide compounds. 4. Some of the samples taken from the walls of the former gas chambers ahow traces of cyanide compounds approximately 75 per cent as high as the highest readings found for samples taken from the fumigatiuon chambers. 5. The results of this 1994 analysis are generally consistent with the results achieved by all previous analyses, including the one carried out in 1945 by Dr. Jan Robel of the Cracow Forensic Institute which was part of the evidence presented at the trial of Auschwitz commander Hoess in 1947. 6. Fred Leuchter's flawed report has several egregious errors: a. his false assumption that it takes more cyanide to kill people than it does to kill lice; b. his incorrect sampling technique, which led to a dilution of the samples when they were being taken and which did not indicate which surface of the samples was the exposed wall; c. his attribution of the indisputable presence of cyanide compounbds in samples taken from Krema II to an unattested gassing which, according to him, would have taken place months before the construction of the building began; d. his assumption that a simple comparison of the two enviornments would be enough for scientifically valid conclusions, even if the conditions for cyanide compound formation and retion were radically diffeerent; e. his having regarded the fumigation chambers as a control, when he should have selected samples from aplace never exposed to cyanide as a control. f. his not having acquainted himself with documents in the camp archives which would have provided him with important historical and architectural information about the structures he was investigating and, in the case of the gas chambers, more precise information on the location of the parts of the ruined buildings and structures he studied which were once likely to have been exposed to cyanide. ********************************** Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:22 EDT 2001 Article: 957137 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Kiev Massacre Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:09:56 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 53 Message-ID: <080920011409562810%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <73fedc95.0109011502.23f2b8d6@posting.google.com> <020920012126493154%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0109021447.2a4b4587@posting.google.com> <030920010733339875%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B93B6C4.1040206@sympatico.ca> <73fedc95.0109031352.5f239806@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0109041442.5b19a60f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 999947396 3068 128.214.199.213 (8 Sep 2001 11:09:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 2001 11:09:56 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:957137 In article <73fedc95.0109041442.5b19a60f@posting.google.com>, morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote: > _________________________________________________ > > > For _liquidieren_ it states (pg. 499): > liquidieren, nl (liquidare) auseinandersetzen (eine Forderung); in > Richtigkeit bringen, abzahlen; das zu Bezahlende einzeln verzeichnen, > Gebühren berechnen; Geschäft auflösen, bei Auflösung einer > Handelsgesellschaft die Geschäfte ordnen. > > > __________________________________________________ > > > As we can see from the above explanation, the German word > "liquidieren" did not suggest murder, or killing, or violence. The > word was used to describe the winding up of affairs, the dissolution > of an entity such as the Jewish community. When considering the use > of the word in combination with the term "exekutieren" we can see the > Germans were describing the total expulsion of the Jewish people from > the German sphere of influence. More on documented changes in the meaning of the verb liquidate (liquidieren): Source: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-03-46.htm Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 4 TWENTY-SIXTH DAY Thursday 3 January 1946 Morning Session COL. AMEN: What were their instructions with respect to the Jews and the Communist functionaries? OHLENDORF: The instructions were that in the Russian operational areas of the Einsatzgruppen the Jews, as well as the Soviet political commissars, were to be liquidated. COL. AMEN: And when you say "liquidated" do you mean "killed?" OHLENDORF: Yes, I mean "killed." Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:23 EDT 2001 Article: 957239 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Richard Phillips' blatant hypocrisy Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:42:43 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 25 Message-ID: <080920012142436650%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <20010907234135.04728.00000459@mb-co.aol.com> <3B99B35D.ACF0B30B@earthlink.net> <3B9A4FFF.9EDA1E18@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 999974563 28365 128.214.199.213 (8 Sep 2001 18:42:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 2001 18:42:43 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:957239 In article <3B9A4FFF.9EDA1E18@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > Now, in the case of H, there is certainly enough evidence to claim it might > have > happened; I know of no one who would deny THAT. Where I differ from the > Holocaustniks is that I am not convinced there is enough of the kind of > evidence to > state incontestably that it DID happen. For this sort of question that > involves > industrial-scale murder by a means never before employed, physical evidence > is a > sine qua non. These are not Dick Phillips' standards; they are the standards > that > have been used by Anglo-Saxon courts for centuries. How do you get "a means never before employed"? The mass execution gas chambers used at Auschwitz were, according to then testimony of Rudolf Hoess and other, independent evidence, merely larger and improved versions of the mass execution gas chambers that had been used, photographed, and filmed within the T-4 euthanasia program. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:23 EDT 2001 Article: 957489 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Kiev Massacre Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:35:22 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 83 Message-ID: <090920011435228024%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <73fedc95.0109011502.23f2b8d6@posting.google.com> <020920012126493154%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0109021447.2a4b4587@posting.google.com> <030920010733339875%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B93B6C4.1040206@sympatico.ca> <73fedc95.0109031352.5f239806@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0109041442.5b19a60f@posting.google.com> <080920011409562810%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0109080909.1ea97b03@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000035321 25997 128.214.199.213 (9 Sep 2001 11:35:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2001 11:35:21 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:957489 In article <73fedc95.0109080909.1ea97b03@posting.google.com>, morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote: > Eugene Holman wrote in message > news:<080920011409562810%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>... > > Why would the English speaking prosecutor ask a question like > that if "liquidieren" could mean only one thing? The prosecution was conducted in German. And "liquidieren" could mean several things. I posted the official English language version of the testimony. In German it was: Source: [Der Nürnberger Prozeß: Sechsundzwanzigster Tag. Donnerstag, 3. Januar 1946, S. 20. Digitale Bibliothek Band 20: Der Nürnberger Prozeß, S. 4105 (vgl. NP Bd. 4, S. 350)] OBERST AMEN: Welches waren ihre Weisungen im Hinblick auf die Juden und die kommunistischen Funktionäre? OHLENDORF: Es war die Weisung erteilt, daß in dem Arbeitsraum der Einsatzgruppen im russischen Territorium die Juden zu liquidieren seien, ebenso wie die politischen Kommissare der Sowjets. OBERST AMEN: Wenn Sie das Wort »liquidieren« verwenden, meinen Sie »töten«? OHLENDORF: Damit meine ich »töten«. > If the witness had > said he "murdered" them, would the prosecutor ask whether he meant > "killed" them? Additionally, all the interrogation and court records > were in English. We still don't know what German words were used by > those Allied translators in putting the questions to the witnesses. Yes we do. The IMT was a mutlilingual process. > For example, the court interpreters could have asked in German whether > by "liquidieren" he meant "exekutieren." Neither word meant to kill > in 1930 German, The excerpt from a 1920s-era German dictionary that I posted shows that "exekutieren" did indeed have the meaning "kill". > but both were invariably translated to mean > "liquidate" and "execute" or mass murder by the treacherous > translators. We can read one bewildered German soldier testifying > that "of course" the Jews were "exekutiert," that is impounded or > expelled, while the court members were aghast as the interpreter > translated his words to mean "of course" the Jews had been killed. Give a more specific reference or admit that you are writing nonsense. > > Besides, testimony from Germans held by the Allies after the war > has been repeatedly shown to contain "facts" that are impossible or > demonstrably untrue. Hoess, for example, is supposed to have claimed > three times as many victims as actually died at Auschwitz and is > supposed to have visited Treblinka before the camp was even in > existence. The number was given by Eichmann and Hoess admitted that he doubted it. Otherwise we cannot expect Hoess, an uneducated man, to remember every detail. > Other Germans under prosecution are supposed to have seen > gassings by diesel exhaust when diesel exhaust is not lethal. It is if the motor is tweaked. > Post > war German "confessions," whether obtained by torture, psychological > pressure, or just made up from scratch, have been repeatedly shown to > be completely unreliable or just plain untrue. Not true. As is the case with any complex legal process, some witnesses are more trustworthy than others. You can't dismiss all testimony because a small subset of it seems to be unreliable. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Sep 12 13:27:23 EDT 2001 Article: 958912 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.jg-brown-bot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.atheism Subject: Re: "Separation: Good for Government, Good for Religion" -- Also Good For Races Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:37:40 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 13 Message-ID: <120920011737401716%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3B9F5CC2.F12B097E@revilo-oliver.com> <3B9F6A96.F5C94715@revilo-oliver.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000305460 18457 128.214.199.213 (12 Sep 2001 14:37:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2001 14:37:40 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:958912 alt.politics.white-power:539463 alt.politics.nationalism.white:530666 alt.atheism:1753275 In article <3B9F6A96.F5C94715@revilo-oliver.com>, Kevin Alfred Strom wrote: > > I never said that I did. However, such individuals are certainly > capable of such acts, have committed such acts in the past, and may > well be involved in the present attacks. Your plan still leaves us with the Tim Mcvays, Unibombers, and Ben Smiths of the world. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:00 EDT 2001 Article: 963293 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.niggers Subject: Re: Here is a pisser of a scenario Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:04:00 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 22 Message-ID: <180920010804000587%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <9o5u45$eon$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <3ba68f34.2475391@news.thenewsgroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000789444 3315 128.214.199.213 (18 Sep 2001 05:04:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 05:04:04 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:963293 alt.politics.white-power:540387 alt.flame.niggers:498820 In article <3ba68f34.2475391@news.thenewsgroups.com>, Victory@any.cost (Nemesis) wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:41:36 -0700, "The Middle Man" > <3patblakely@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Would America feel satisified that justice was served? or would we bomb the > >Arab world anyhow and bring worldwide opinion against us? > > > That's already been answered by Colin Powell. Getting UBL is just step > one. ALL nations who have harboured terrorists in the past will taste > their own blood. All training camps will be destroyed where ever they > are. No Islamic terrorist organisation will go untouched. Since a technical university in Germany as well as flight schools, including a taxpayer-supported military flight training school, in the US evidently served as training camps for the hijackers, I guess we can expect attacks on Germany as well as a few self-inflicted kicks in the chops. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:00 EDT 2001 Article: 963341 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.niggers Subject: Re: Here is a pisser of a scenario Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:22:54 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 76 Message-ID: <180920011222542588%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <9o5u45$eon$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <3ba68f34.2475391@news.thenewsgroups.com> <180920010804000587%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000804977 18478 128.214.199.213 (18 Sep 2001 09:22:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 09:22:57 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:963341 alt.politics.white-power:540406 alt.flame.niggers:498835 In article , Joel Rosenberg wrote: > Eugene Holman writes: > > > In article <3ba68f34.2475391@news.thenewsgroups.com>, Victory@any.cost > > (Nemesis) wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:41:36 -0700, "The Middle Man" > > > <3patblakely@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >Would America feel satisified that justice was served? or would we bomb > > > >the > > > >Arab world anyhow and bring worldwide opinion against us? > > > > > > > That's already been answered by Colin Powell. Getting UBL is just step > > > one. ALL nations who have harboured terrorists in the past will taste > > > their own blood. All training camps will be destroyed where ever they > > > are. No Islamic terrorist organisation will go untouched. > > > > Since a technical university in Germany as well as flight schools, > > including a taxpayer-supported military flight training school, in the > > US evidently served as training camps for the hijackers, I guess we can > > expect attacks on Germany as well as a few self-inflicted kicks in the > > chops. > > > > Regards, > > Eugene Holman > > I think many people will be able to distinguish between "countries > that despite their sincere if not always competent efforts do have > terrorists operating in them" and "countries whose actual and > sometimes overtly stated policy is to support, arm, and/or train > terrorists", although I'm sure that many people will try to blur the > distinction. > > That said, I think we're heading for Desert Storm Lite, with a better > ad campaign, and I think that's going to be unfortunate, in the long > run, and probably in the medium run. I'm not so sure how valid the distinction is. First of all, terrorism is a very relative concept. From the standpoint of certain countries in the Middle East the United States is as much a rogue state practicing terrorism and solving problems with violence as any one of them. Secondly, the entire state structure of Afghanistan has fallen apart: there is effectively no government in large parts of its territory, for which reason the Afghani people, whose oppressive Taliban government was originally sponsored by the US as a proxy against the USSR, whose bin Laden is a CIA product, and whose massive amounts of weapons were largely supplied by American arms dealers, have no control over who is using their territory for what. If they, innocent, helpless, terrorized people, are bombed by the US for something which they have no control over, they will feel as embittered and vengeful as Americans do today. I would expect a military strike against Afghanistan to provoke a new terrorist attack even worse than what we saw last Tuesday. If whoever was responsible for last Tuesday's attack is as professional as they seem to be, it should be obvious that they are prepared for the next round and that everything is already in place - inside the United States. Thirdly, terrorists of the type we saw are not carrying out a government agenda - no government would be stupid or suicidal enough to provoke and humiliate the USA the way the terrorists did last Tuesday ­ but rather are implementing a personal or organizational vendetta. An important but neglected aspect of this tragic affair has been the complete _humiliation_ of the United States, the demonstration that its internal security has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese, and the attacks on the symbols of its commercial and military superiority. What better way to add insult to injury than to have the terrorists trained at American taxpayers' expense? Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:01 EDT 2001 Article: 963468 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.niggers Subject: Re: Here is a pisser of a scenario Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:06:36 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 10 Message-ID: <180920011806364472%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <9o5u45$eon$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <3ba68f34.2475391@news.thenewsgroups.com> <180920010804000587%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <180920011222542588%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3ba71a0d.38290016@news.uncensored-news.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000825599 9606 128.214.199.213 (18 Sep 2001 15:06:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 15:06:39 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:963468 alt.politics.white-power:540476 alt.flame.niggers:499016 In article <3ba71a0d.38290016@news.uncensored-news.com>, 1st Mississippi/Where have all the niggers gone wrote: > Or why do terrorists > on TV all look like niggers. These are questions tha go unanswered! You mean like Tim McVeigh? Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:01 EDT 2001 Article: 963607 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Supersedes: <190920010913433093%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:55:24 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 47 Message-ID: <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000889727 15041 128.214.199.213 (19 Sep 2001 08:55:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 2001 08:55:27 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540509 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531583 alt.revisionism:963607 In article <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote: > > > > > > ================================================= > > > Phillips > > > > > > I see, and do you claim the two are mutually exclusive? You can discern > > > who > > > is Islamic > > > > Phillips will not be able to explain how one can "discern", at a glance, > > whether > > an individual is "Islamic" or not. > > > > JGB > > =================================================== > Phillips > > Dark-complected plus moustache, wrong kind of name, wrong kind of speech, > wrong kind > of facial features, documents don't fully check out. There are ways, my son, there > are ways. > > ============================================== That might work for recent immigrants and people of conservative belief, although many people, such a Sikhs, who wear turbans and sport moustaches, but are not Moslems, will be targeted. Remember that the Islamic world starts in Europe. Albanians, many Bosnians, and Macedonians, total several millions and are of Islamic faith, but they are often clean shaven, light complected, and wear business suits or jeans and sweaters. They may have the "wrong" kind of name, but not wrong in the Arab-type direction. Some might speak perfect, accent-free English and carry perfect and legitimate documents. More than 50% of them are women. Intuiting that someone is "Islamic", which is a faith shared by people in a belt stretching from Mauritania and Albania to Malaysia and Indonesia, and enconmpassing people of all racial types, including Nordics, is as futile an exercise as intuiting that someone is a Jew. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:01 EDT 2001 Article: 963900 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:32:54 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000967579 4747 128.214.79.10 (20 Sep 2001 06:32:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:32:59 GMT Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540607 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531725 alt.revisionism:963900 In article <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > Eugene Holman wrote: > ============================================== > Phillips > > As I have said many times, there are those who do and those who carp. There is no way > whatosever we can cope with this sort of situation WITHOUT committing frequent and many > "injustices." > > Do you think we have seen the last of this sort of thing. What happened on 9/11 could > happen again today. If you are willing to see another 5000 or 10000 Americans die in > order to avoid an "injustice", I am not. > > We do not have the luxury of taking a long term view. The problem has to be dealt with > today. The best we can do is, going on the basis of recent experience, refuse boarding > to any and all persons who by one criterion or another fit the profile. Yes. it's racial > profiling or religious profiling. And if this sticks in your craw; too bad. > > =========================================== The point I was making is that being a person of Islamic faith does not correlate even closely with racial type. The most populous Islamic country is Indonesia, with over 228,000,000 people, about 90% of them Moslems and almost all of them of the sme racial type as Vietnamese, Laotians, Philippinos, etc. Half of Nigeria's 127,000,000 are Muslims and they are racially among the darkest and most "typical" negroids, while 70% of Albania's 3.5 million, 30% of Macedonia's 2 million, and 40% of Bosnia-Herzegovina's 4 million are Alpine or Mediterranean europoids. Racial profiling would target just about everyone who was not a north-western European, even though there are tens of thousands of people of that racial stock who are also Moslems. For example, Finnish Moslems, who number in the thousands are mostly blond haired and blue eyed, the descendants of Tatars and Russians from Tataristan who moved to Finland during the early 19th century, intermarried with the locals, but retained their Moslem faith. The most "typical" person of Islamic faith, then, is going to be an Indonesian and look something like the proprietor of your local Chinese restaurant. Some of the Moslems closest to the United States are in the African countries Mauritania and Nigeria and will be medium brown to pitch black negroids, while the Moslems who would get through your racial profiling system would be some of the more than 5 million white Europeans who profess the Moslem faith. Only _one_ fanatical Moslem with a bomb or box cutter is enough to destroy an aircraft. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:02 EDT 2001 Article: 963906 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Another reason for Phillips to bow his head in thanks Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:39:37 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <3BA8D15D.C8E3B0A0@earthlink.net> <3BA914E5.80725223@earthlink.net> <3BA915C9.75C20EAB@earthlink.net> <3BA96CE5.2B912A7B@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000967982 4747 128.214.79.10 (20 Sep 2001 06:39:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:39:42 GMT Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540608 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531726 alt.revisionism:963906 In article <3BA96CE5.2B912A7B@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > > ====================================== > Phillips > > Our priorities are different. Mine is that we must do everything we possibly can > do to prevent a recurrence. Yours is that on no account should we do anything that > smacks of "racism." > > Well it was your Jew-inspired multi-fucking-culturalism that brough this calamity > upon us. For just what possible reason do we need Islamics living in this country? > > ======================================================= The terrorist attack was hardly about Islamics living in the US, but rather was revenge for America's involvement in the cauldron if Middle Eastern politics. Since being Islamic is a conviction rather than a race or ethnicity, even if the United States were to have a racially 100% European population, white Moslems, of whome there are more than 5,000,000 in countries like Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Germany, Finland, Russia, and other countries could easily infiltrate the country and pull off precisely the same kind of attack that you saw on Sept. 11. Timothy McVeigh, raised a Roman Catholic, proved to all sceptics that terrorism correlates with a certain mindset, not with race or religion. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:02 EDT 2001 Article: 963927 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:19:34 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> <3ba99504_2@corp.newsgroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000973979 8288 128.214.79.10 (20 Sep 2001 08:19:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:19:39 GMT Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540612 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531734 alt.revisionism:963927 In article <3ba99504_2@corp.newsgroups.com>, "Pontiff Maximus" wrote: > Being a PERSON is like saying I TAKE IT UP THE ASS! That was one of the most profound sentiments I have ever read. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:03 EDT 2001 Article: 963928 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.non.racism Subject: Re: What caused this day? Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:08:33 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <9ns51o$93dh7$2@ID-74999.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000973318 8288 128.214.79.10 (20 Sep 2001 08:08:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:08:38 GMT Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:963928 alt.non.racism:21415 In article , "Glytche" wrote: > Boy, you got that right. Tomorrow it may well be nuclear weapons. And once > the atoms of war are unleashed we may well live just long enough to learn of > the extinction of mankind. > All because an enemy who lives 6000 miles away is attacking with terrorist > tactics. But one wonders WHY would these puny ragheads risk attacking us? > Until you have bothered to do the research and find out why we are being > attacked, your opinions are simple minded spoutings with no base in reality. We are not yet sure who is ultimately behind the attacks, but the friend of my enemy is my enemy. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:03 EDT 2001 Article: 963931 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.niggers,alt.politics.nationalism.white Subject: Re: Here is a pisser of a scenario Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:30:20 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <9o5u45$eon$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <3ba68f34.2475391@news.thenewsgroups.com> <180920010804000587%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <180920011222542588%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <9o7qlj$pdm$3@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000974625 12577 128.214.79.10 (20 Sep 2001 08:30:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:30:25 GMT Xref: hub.org soc.culture.african.american:489458 soc.culture.usa:700226 alt.revisionism:963931 alt.politics.white-power:540613 alt.flame.niggers:499535 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531735 In article <9o7qlj$pdm$3@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "Byker" wrote: > Eugene Holman wrote in message > news:180920011222542588%holman@elo.helsinki.fi... > > > I would expect a military strike against Afghanistan to provoke a new > > terrorist attack even worse than what we saw last Tuesday. If whoever > > was responsible for last Tuesday's attack is as professional as they > > seem to be, it should be obvious that they are prepared for the next > > round and that everything is already in place - inside the United > > States. > > Of course Eugene can breathe easy, having renounced his American citizenship > to be a pet negro to his Finn friends.... Unh, no, Byker. This was not only an attack on the US - close to a thousand of the people that died in the WTC were citizens of whgat is estimated to have been 40 different foreign countries - this was an attack on the Western World and Western values, of which Finland is very much a part. We are all in this together. We are going through the same trauma and beefing up of security as you are there. As to changing citizenship, if you live permanently in a foreign country, paying taxes and the like, you are not being responsible if you don't acquire and exercise political rights, including the right to vote, to give input concerning how your taxes are going to be used. I live, work, and and have the obligation to pay taxes here, and I have correspondingly earned the right to vote. When I left the USA back in the mid 60s, I would have had the obligation to pay taxes, but until the Civil Rights legislation was passed and effectively enforced, I did not have the unchallenged right to vote. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:04 EDT 2001 Article: 963940 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What is to be done? Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:00:23 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1000980030 18441 128.214.79.10 (20 Sep 2001 10:00:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:00:30 GMT Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540617 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531738 alt.revisionism:963940 In article <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > > =============================================== > Phillips > > Please list for us all of the non-Islamic persons who have sky-jacked > > airliners with some political end in view. > > ================================ I can't give names (although they could be found if I had the time slosh through newspaper archives), but the entire hijacking craze started in the 1960s with people of various non-Middle Eastern nationalities hijacking airplanes to Cuba, usually for the political purpose of protesting against American policy towards the Castro regime but also to escape the American justice system. Numerous hijackings took place within and from the Soviet Union by Soviet citizens trying to defect or by Soviet criminals trying to escape the justice system, also a political statement. We got at least one such airplane here in Helsinki, but Turkey was the country they most frequently flew to. During the 1970s urban terrorists in Germany and Italy were also involved in some hijacking episodes. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:04 EDT 2001 Article: 964053 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.rosnet.ru!news.RUNNet.ru!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Supersedes: <200920012044191370%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:49:48 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 61 Message-ID: <200920012049481161%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> <3BAA204C.DF902864@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001008191 19354 128.214.199.213 (20 Sep 2001 17:49:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 17:49:51 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540658 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531795 alt.revisionism:964053 In article <3BAA204C.DF902864@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > Eugene Holman wrote: > > The most "typical" person of Islamic faith, then, is going to be an > > Indonesian and look something like the proprietor of your local Chinese > > restaurant. Some of the Moslems closest to the United States are in the > > African countries Mauritania and Nigeria and will be medium brown to pitch > > black negroids, while the Moslems who would get through your racial > > profiling system would be some of the more than 5 million white Europeans > > who profess the Moslem faith. > > > > Only _one_ fanatical Moslem with a bomb or box cutter is enough to destroy > > an aircraft. > ================================================= > Phillips > > I shit on your damned professorizing. . THere is only one problem and only one > objective: to prevent any repetition of what happened Sept 11. This is what > has > to be done and I don't give a damn HOW it is done. I do not give a damn about > how > many injustices it causes and I don't even give a damn if we are accused of > racism. My point is that being Moslem is not a race. There is no way that you can filter out the Moslems in a given group of people by racial profiling. To believe that it is possible is to commit racist injustices while doing nothing to prevent a repitition of the events of September 11, if you think they are a function of being a Moslem. If you saw the surveillance videos of the hijackers who boarded the commuter flight at Portland, MA, you should have noticed that they were quite normal looking fellows dressed in typically American casual clothing. > ================================================= > Phillips > > Fuck multucuralism, fuck pluralism, fuck sensitivity, and fuck fine > distinctions. THere never was the slightest need nor justfication for allowing > these Abdul Kabibbles into the country. But now that they are here, they can ride > the greyhound buses. > > ==================================================== A tactical nuke, soda-sized bottle of compressed samarin, or an aerosol can full of anthrax or smallpox bacteria can be hidden and detonated or released in a Greyhound bus by a Moslem, a Christian, a Jew, a Native American, a Black, an Hispanic, or an Aryan like Tim McVeigh. There is no physical defense against terrorism, especially if your enemy is undefined, invisible, and has already infiltrated and established himself in your territory. It's psychologically reasurring to blame everything on Osama bin Laden, half a world away, but this is only a façade. You don't really know who perpetrated the attacks, where the perpetrators are, or what or when their next move will be. That's why they call it terrorism rather than warfare. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:05 EDT 2001 Article: 964066 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What is to be done? Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:05:13 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 55 Message-ID: <200920012105136773%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BAA1D98.17A1BBF4@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001009115 20605 128.214.199.213 (20 Sep 2001 18:05:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 18:05:15 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540664 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531801 alt.revisionism:964066 In article <3BAA1D98.17A1BBF4@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > Eugene Holman wrote: > > > ================================ > > > > I can't give names (although they could be found if I had the time slosh > > through newspaper archives), but the entire hijacking craze started in the > > 1960s with people of various non-Middle Eastern nationalities hijacking > > airplanes to Cuba, usually for the political purpose of protesting against > > American policy towards the Castro regime but also to escape the American > > justice system. > > > > Numerous hijackings took place within and from the Soviet Union by Soviet > > citizens trying to defect or by Soviet criminals trying to escape the > > justice system, also a political statement. We got at least one such > > airplane here in Helsinki, but Turkey was the country they most frequently > > flew to. > > > > During the 1970s urban terrorists in Germany and Italy were also involved > > in some hijacking episodes. > > > > Regards, > > Eugene Holman > > ====================== > Phillips > > I am arguing the case for common sense over pedantry. I have not the slightest > interest in an exhaustive compendium of every skyjacking that has ever taken > place. I am asking the question: on the basis of recent experience, is there > any particular ethnic/religious group that, in this respect, poses the > greatest danger to us. And if pointing a finger at such a group constitutes > "racism" then so be it. > > ================================================= I am responding by saying that no race or religious group has a monopoly on the ability to hijack airliners. In the Western media more attention has been focused on hijacks by Moslems, who can represent any race, since Islam is a religion and not a race or ethnicity. If you were to study the history of skyjacking you would find that the high-profile crimes connected with the Middle East are just the tip of a very large iceberg. Urban guerillas, defectors, common criminals, people trying to get cheap whisky, as well as people trying to attract attention to their personal tragedies have all skyjacked airliners during the past 25 years. The most sensational (and still the only remaining totally unsolved) skyjacking was perpetrated by one D. B. Cooper, a plain-vanilla white man who extorted a large amount of cash and then parachuted from the airplane he had hijacked over Oregon and, never to be seen or heard from since. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:05 EDT 2001 Article: 964217 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Supersedes: <210920010950274570%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:45:55 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 94 Message-ID: <210920011145556379%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> <3BAA204C.DF902864@earthlink.net> <200920012049481161%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BAA4E77.4B7A1D83@earthlink.net> <3BAA95C6.2272A4E3@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001061962 13711 128.214.199.213 (21 Sep 2001 08:46:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 2001 08:46:02 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540710 alt.politics.nationalism.white:531887 alt.revisionism:964217 In article <3BAA95C6.2272A4E3@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > > Bullshit. As Mr. Holman has demonstrated, Islam is a religion, not a race. > > Phillips' mumblings are a smokescreen to cover his utter inability to > > describe > > how his racial profiling program could be implemented. > > =================================================== > Phillips > > Holman has "demonstrated" nothing that we didn't already know: that he is a > multuculturalist perfectly aware that, as from Sept 11, multiculturalism has > suddenly > lost much of its vogue. How so? The United States is gathering a world-wide coalition behind it to fight terrorism. Even the Russians, Iranians, Libyans, and Cubans are currying favor with Bush. Although the strike is thought of primarily in terms of 'foreign terrorists' vs. Americans, closer analysis is indicating that this is not the case. The 'foreign terrorists' evidently had access to the information transmitted by FAA, FBI, White House, and CIA secret codes. Hence George Bush's hopping around the country instead of returning directly to the White House and making himself a sitting duck. This indicates either an unprecedented ability of the 'foreigners' to crack US codes and securtiy systems or, more likely, several confederates or moles rather high up in the American power structure. As to the victims, you might want to check out http://www.thetimes.co.uk/picture/0,,2001320130,00.jpg to see the numbers and more than 40 nations of the approximately 1,000 non-American victims of the WTC explosions and airplane crashes,. News that broke a few days ago indicated that three of the four skyjacking pilots were trained at American military flight schools at the American taxpayer's expense, and news breaking today indicates that remarkably large and untraceable amounts of money were made on the stock exchange in anticipation of sharp drops of the stock prices for companies sharply affected by the attack such as UAL, Morgan Securities, and insurance companies on Tuesday, Sept. 11. Even though there is a great increase in flag waving and 'God Bless America' singing, sugar-frosted patriotism, the diplomatic efforts of the United States during the past ten days mave been multicultural to the extreme. Their purpose has been to show that everyone, no matter what their race, creed, or ethnicity, is threatened by this new kind of warfare, and that they should make a concerted effort now to eliminate it root and branch. > =================================================== > Phillips > > So, to save his ideology and the self-definition that > is > based upon it,. he indulges in a load of sterile, irrelevant, and useless > professorizing in an attempt to bolster his pathetic case that harsh > racially-based > measures won't work. Ironic that you should write this on the day that the leader of the world's most populous (230,000,000, of which 90% Moslems) Islamic country, Indonesian president Megawati Sukarnoputri, a person racially similar to a Vietnamese, Malaysian, or Phillipino rather than to an 'Arab', is in Washington negotiating with President Bush about maintaining good relations with the Islamic world. This demonstrates the sterility, irrelevancy, and futlity of your arguments that Moslems can be identified by harsh, racially-based methods. > =================================================== > Phillips > > I see no reason to take the slightest notice of him. > > ================================= That's how you are about so many things that are obvious to anyone with a semblance of a critical mind, so nobody misses your notice. White, Aryan, Roman Catholic-raised, corn-fed middle American, US military veteran Timothy McVeigh made my point with explosive effectiveness when he implemented an act of terrorism inspired by the writings of White, Aryan, Dr. William Pierce. Have a nice day. Regards, Eugene Holman -- Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:05 EDT 2001 Article: 964252 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Terrorists won't listen to reason, but we must Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:37:07 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 73 Message-ID: <210920011737078934%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001083033 7438 128.214.199.213 (21 Sep 2001 14:37:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 2001 14:37:13 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540725 alt.revisionism:964252 Forwarded from another news group. Regards, Eugene Holman This is a great article written by Rory Bremner. -------------------------------------------------------------- Let's start with what we know. Last week, thousands of innocent civilians lost their lives in the worst terrorist massacre the world has seen. The scale of the atrocity is impossible to believe, the grief impossible to bear. We are told we are at war, and we understand that the list of potential targets has now been narrowed down to an area approximately the size of the Middle East. More than that we cannot say. If truth is the first casualty of war, then satire must be about the fourteenth, somewhere between irony and reason. To be sure, the ironies are there: the George Bush who seeks to hunt down the world's most wanted man is the same George Bush who refuses to sign up to the establishment of an international criminal court. The administration that fears further attacks - including biological ones - is the same administration that wants to undo years of progress towards a treaty banning the use of biological weapons. Is the declaration of war against terrorism any less facile than the declarations of war against drugs or war against crime, neither of which has been conspicuously successful so far? And where does all this leave the daddy of them all, Star Wars? But somehow, such observations seem like hollow point-scoring, faced with the loss suffered by so many. Yet doubts remain, and in the natural urge to hit back hard we lose sight of first principles. In the first place, last week's attack was not an act of war. It was an act of mass murder: a terrorist massacre carried out without warning on a civilian target. To call this war glorifies and mythologises the crime. It was also an attack on America. Not on democracy, not on civilisation, but on a country hated by the terrorists for its Middle East policy, for its war against Iraq, for its perceived support of Israel, for walking away from the peace process. This is not an excuse, for nothing can ever excuse such an act. But it is a reality. Do those who are calling for a new war not realise that this was a vicious retaliation for the last one? Vengeance may be swift, but justice is slow, and it is justice that we need. Justice for the victims in the United States, justice in the Middle East, too. Any feel-good factor resulting from a revenge strike would last as long as it took the next suicide bomber to retaliate. The terrorists' message from New York is a chilling parody of the old song: if they can make it there, they can make it anywhere. Nonetheless, the consequences of last week affect us all. More than 40 countries lost citizens in the attack and our common humanity binds us together. Terrorists may not listen to reason, but the rest of us can and should. It's what distinguishes civilised societies from the fanatics who would destroy us. If last week's attack showed the worst that human nature is capable of, let the response show the best we are capable of. We already see that in the recovery work carried out heroically in New York. What we need now is intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. Those who planned the attack must be found and punished, but if we are tough on crime, let us also be tough on the causes of crime. And where have we heard that before?         From rigor@mortis52.fsnet.co.uk Thu Sep 27 10:52:06 EDT 2001 Article: 964254 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Did American rightwingers facilitate US bombings? Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:03:49 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 42 Message-ID: <210920011803495267%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> Reply-To: rigor@mortis52.fsnet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001084634 9445 128.214.199.213 (21 Sep 2001 15:03:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 2001 15:03:54 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540727 alt.revisionism:964254 Reposted from another newsgroup. Regards, Eugene Holman ******************************************************** The FBI and CIA are looking to the possibility that US anti-government right wing racists and "white power" extremists acted as facilitators of the recent bombings in the US. The bombings have all the hallmarks of the Oklahoma City bombing (which were originally thought to be down to Arab terrorism but later shown to be home- grown). The targets are the same sort of government buildings. Neither is it likely that US racist terrorists lack the ruthless disregard for fellow Americans' lives, or indeed their own lives, to be involved. E.g: "Timothy McVeigh said he was willing to become a suicide bomber and drive his van into the Alfred P. Murrah federal building, according to a new book on the murderous militiaman. He also referred to the children killed in the Oklahoma City bombing as 'collateral damage' and expressed remorse only that their deaths damaged his cause. McVeigh's comments, and the book itself, didn't sit well with some relatives of bombing victims." http://www.courttv.com/casefiles/oklahoma/ The Arab/Muslim perpetrators of the US bombings seemed to be remarkably well organised especially considering that they carried out the attacks in what was for them a foreign country. It is like they had local facilitators to help out. Remember that Timothy McVeigh is thought to have had accomplices in the Oklahoma City bombing who have never yet been caught. The above arrangement would be ideal from the point of view of a rightwing racist organisation. They could strike at the government they hate. With any luck, the USA would be so consumed with the fact that Arabs were the visible perpetrators that McVeigh's buddies would stay out of sight. With luck it might even kick off the apocalyptic "world race war" these madmen dream of and hope for. From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:06 EDT 2001 Article: 964262 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Did American rightwingers facilitate US bombings? Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:15:02 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 70 Message-ID: <210920011915022253%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <210920011803495267%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <9ofmh2$5rc$1@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001088908 14069 128.214.199.213 (21 Sep 2001 16:15:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 2001 16:15:08 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540732 alt.revisionism:964262 In article <9ofmh2$5rc$1@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com>, "The Middle Man" wrote: > "Eugene Holman" wrote in message > news:210920011803495267%holman@elo.helsinki.fi... > > Reposted from another newsgroup. > > (deletions) > > But he didn't become a suicide bomber. Not quite. He was so stupid that he drove a car without plates and got picked up almost immediately after the bombing, perhaps realizing an unconscious suicide desire. > > > He also referred to the children killed in the > > Oklahoma City bombing as 'collateral damage' and expressed > > remorse only that their deaths damaged his cause. McVeigh's > > comments, and the book itself, didn't sit well with some > > relatives of bombing victims." > > http://www.courttv.com/casefiles/oklahoma/ > > > > The Arab/Muslim perpetrators of the US bombings seemed to > > be remarkably well organised especially considering that they > > carried out the attacks in what was for them a foreign country. > > It is like they had local facilitators to help out. Remember > > that Timothy McVeigh is thought to have had accomplices in > > the Oklahoma City bombing who have never yet been caught. > > And zero proof of this or the Feds would be searching in mass for them. Given that the only concrete evidince that we have is that the alleged perps were of Middle Eastern origin, but with what seems to be at least one layer of false identities, it would be silly on the part of the Feds not to consider other hypotheses. > > The above arrangement would be ideal from the point of view > > of a rightwing racist organisation. They could strike at the > > government they hate. With any luck, the USA would be so > > consumed with the fact that Arabs were the visible perpetrators > > that McVeigh's buddies would stay out of sight. With luck it > > might even kick off the apocalyptic "world race war" these > > madmen dream of and hope for. > > This article is full of shit. I really hope Holman doesn't agree with this. I posted it to stimulate discussion. Presdient Bush is taking a great risk blaming everything on an elusive man living in a cave half-way around the world with very little concrete proof. I have to admit that I agree with a statement made by the Taliban: submit concrete evidence that bin Laden is behind this or risk the chance of the real culprit never being discovered. The attacks were executed so brilliantly and showed so perfect an understanding of what would enrage, humiliate, and frighten Americans that it is difficult to consider them solely the work of foreigners doing their dirty work in a foreign country and culture. One affect of the attacks will be an intense debate in the United States on its Middle East policy and its unconditional support of Israel. You cannot deny that there are frustrated elements on the right-win fringe in America that would be willing to sacrifice a few thousands of their fellow citizens to initiate such a debate. If you've every read the very evil weekly propaganda churned out by Dr. Pierce, you know what I mean. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:06 EDT 2001 Article: 964635 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:41:28 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 19 Message-ID: <220920011241284212%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> <3BAA204C.DF902864@earthlink.net> <200920012049481161%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BAA4E77.4B7A1D83@earthlink.net> <3BAA95C6.2272A4E3@earthlink.net> <210920011145556379%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001151692 14590 128.214.199.213 (22 Sep 2001 09:41:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 2001 09:41:32 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540880 alt.politics.nationalism.white:532031 alt.revisionism:964635 In article , Andy Walton wrote: > In article <210920011145556379%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, > Eugene Holman wrote: > > :The 'foreign terrorists' evidently had access to the information > :transmitted by FAA, FBI, White House, and CIA secret codes. > > Why is that evident? The President's daily itinerary is hardly a state > secret -- the Associated Press publishes a "DC Daybook" every morning, > to name but one press organ. I've seen nothing to indicate that the > terrorists had more information than is publically available. Have a look at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24594 Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:07 EDT 2001 Article: 964639 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!HSNX.atgi.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:47:57 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 25 Message-ID: <220920011347574130%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> <3BAA204C.DF902864@earthlink.net> <200920012049481161%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BAA4F34.A2783CD4@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001155681 18575 128.214.199.213 (22 Sep 2001 10:48:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 2001 10:48:01 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:540884 alt.politics.nationalism.white:532034 alt.revisionism:964639 In article <3BAA4F34.A2783CD4@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > > ======================================================== > Phillips > > THank you. You have just supplied an excellent reason why should collar the > lot and > ship them to hell back where ther, or their fathers, or their grandfathers > came from. > Who needs them. > > ======================== You'll just love this: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010921/us/attacks_passengers_removed _1.html People won't accept this crap lying down. Expect million-dollar lawsuits. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:07 EDT 2001 Article: 965383 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Phillips continues to run from its original claim Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:04:48 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 39 Message-ID: <230920012104488102%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3BA59584.C6DBCE9F@earthlink.net> <3BA5FEF5.F3F8867C@earthlink.net> <3BA64037.F7D7D5C2@earthlink.net> <3BA695DA.40C21F87@earthlink.net> <3BA7A210.51788CBA@earthlink.net> <3BA7D7D3.1650B860@earthlink.net> <3BA7F77F.BEC76C08@earthlink.net> <3BA824D2.B4E9C960@earthlink.net> <190920011155246901%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BA8D598.35A4369F@earthlink.net> <3BAA204C.DF902864@earthlink.net> <200920012049481161%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3BAA4E77.4B7A1D83@earthlink.net> <3BAA95C6.2272A4E3@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001268290 23534 128.214.199.213 (23 Sep 2001 18:04:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2001 18:04:50 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:541259 alt.politics.nationalism.white:532343 alt.revisionism:965383 In article <3BAA95C6.2272A4E3@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" wrote: > > =================================================== > Phillips > > Holman has "demonstrated" nothing that we didn't already know: that he is a > multuculturalist perfectly aware that, as from Sept 11, multiculturalism has > suddenly > lost much of its vogue. So, to save his ideology and the self-definition that > is > based upon it,. he indulges in a load of sterile, irrelevant, and useless > professorizing in an attempt to bolster his pathetic case that harsh > racially-based > measures won't work. I see no reason to take the slightest notice of him. > > ================================= Professorizing, indeed! Fact: Most Arab Americans are Chistians. Fact: Most Muslim Americans are non-Arabs. Fact: 12% of world Muslims are Arabs. Fact: 88% of world Muslims are _not_ Arabs. Fact: Indonesia, a non-Arab country, has the world's largest Muslim Population, 207,000,000 out of 230,000,000. Fact: Arab Muslims worldwide are far outnumbered by Muslims in Indonesia. Fact: Racial profiling for Arabs will not filter out Muslims. Regards, Eugene Holman From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Sep 27 10:52:07 EDT 2001 Article: 967541 of alt.revisionism Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman From: Eugene Holman Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: WTC attack not about U.S. Mideast policy or military might Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:22:29 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 54 Message-ID: <270920011522299163%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> References: <3bb34baf.40077407@newsproxy.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1001593359 3967 128.214.199.213 (27 Sep 2001 12:22:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2001 12:22:39 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:967541 In article , William Daffer wrote: > trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: > > > Today, as he has said in the past Bush said the attack on the World > > Trade Center and Pentagon was an attack "against freedom". > > > > Almost as if the attack was on the Liberty Bell or Statue of Liberty. > > Anything but the real reason, U.S. Mideast policy. > > I doubt the desire of these terrorists to kill thousands of > Americans would have been satisfied by bombing the Liberty Bell or > the Statue of Liberty. Does the fact that in addition to wanting to > attack symbols uniquely American, they wanted to kill lots of > people, make it less an attack on our liberty, our way of life? > > When the Palestinians and the Israelis finally solve their > disagreements, what pretext will you have then to justify the deaths > of thousands of Americans, Tom? Actually, these terrorists were _much_ more interested in symbolism than in killing lots of people. If they had just wanted to kill lots of people they could have delayed and coordinated their double strike into the WTC by a mere twelve to fifteen minutes. Since the working day in the USA begins at 9:00 AM for most white collar workers, they would have killed a lot of people who were not yet in the building. By slamming them at about the same time, say 9:10, they would have made it all the more difficult for anyone to be evacuated. The first aircraft crashed into the building at 8:48, but it could have idled away fifteen or so minutes by flying over the NYC area: nobody knew what their plans were and it is unlikely that the military would have considered the option of shooting down a hijacked airplane that had not announced or shown any evil intentions over a densely populated urban area. Alternatively, they could have plowed the airplanes into midtown Manhattan. The same holds, muatis mutandis, for the Pentagon and Washington DC. The guys who crashed in Pennsylvania might have been able to crash the aircraft in central Pittsburgh or Cleveland. Had such multiple crashes into the centers of cities taken place, there would be an argument raging as to whether they were intentional or accidents, as, indeed, many people initially considered the first WTC crash to be. As it happened, the message that this was a massive and coordinated terrorist attack was clear and not open to interpretation. The point is that the terrorists could easily have killed tens of thousands of people rather than just the thousands that they did kill. Although mass murder was obviously on their agenda, humiliating America by attacking the symbols of its financial and military might, in addition to showing how vulnerable the country is to a terrorist attack >from within, was their primary objective. Regards, Eugene Holman

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