The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/h/holman.eugene/2001/holman.0106


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:42 EDT 2001
Article: 905776 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Denial = Hate Speech
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 09:25:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B1C6440@MailAndNews.com>, Philip Mathews
 wrote:

> 
> No, you deny the evidence. There is no possible interpretation of the 
> Einsaztgruppen reports about Jews other than that they record the murder of 
> Jews. There is likewise only one interpretation of the following report to 
> Hitler from Himmler on the Einsatzgruppen's progress.
> 
> (quote)
> 
> Report No. 51 of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to Hitler about mass 
> executions in the east, 1942
> [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
> Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 269-272]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>                               August  September  October  November
> 
> Prisoners executed
> after interrogation            2,100    1,400     1,596     2,731
>  .
>  .
> Accomplices of guerrilla and
> guerrilla suspects executed    1,198    3,020     6,333     3,706
>  .
>  .
> Jews executed                 31,246   165,282    95,735   70,948
>  .
>  .
> Villages and localities
> Burned down or destroyed        35       12         20       92
> 
> 
> (end quote)

Morghus works on the ridiculous and unjustified assumption that
"executed" [= exekutiert"] means "impounded". His deliberate
misinterpretation of the evidence for the Holocaust is partially a
consequence of his inhabiting what could only be called a different
semantic world, a semantic world in which a man unable to construct a
properly premodified German noun phrase, let alone a sentence, claims
to native speakers and trained experts alike that words have meanings
which they don't in specific contexts.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:43 EDT 2001
Article: 905786 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Denial  Hate Speech
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 11:59:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 52
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In article <73fedc95.0106011956.73f2aff@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

>     You are right, there is only one reasonable interpretation of Himmler's
> report, and that is he used the German word "exekutieren" in its
> official meaning "to seize and impound."  The English word "execute" in
> your translation below should read "impound."
> 

That is _not_ the meaning of _exekutieren_ when applied to human
beings. The only meaning of _exekutieren_ with a human direct object,
except in Austrian bureaucratic usage, which the Nazis were not using,
is "hinrichten" = (1a) an jmdm das Todesurteil vollstrecken [= to
implement the death penalty on someone]. That is why German has such a
compound as _Exekutionskommando_ = Kommando, das eine Exekution (1a)
durchzuführen hat. [_Duden. Deutsches Universalwörterbuch_,
Dudenverlag, 1983].

Himmler himself is quite explicit as to what was being done to the Jews:

"Es trat an uns die Frage heran: Wie ist es mit den Frauen
und Kindern? - Ich habe mich entschlossen, auch hier eine
ganz klare Lösung zu finden. Ich hielt mich nämlich nicht
für berechtigt, die Männer auszurotten - sprich also,
umzubringen oder umbringen zu lassen - und die Rächer
in Gestalt der Kinder für unsere Söhne und Enkel
groß werden zu lassen. Es mußte der schwere Entschluß
gefaßt werden, dieses Volk von der Erde verschwinden zu
lassen."
 
- Heinrich Himmler am 6.10.1943 vor
Reichs- und Gauleitern in Posen.
 
Quoted from:
 
Hermann Graml,
Reichskristallnacht ["National Crystal Night"]
DTV 4519, pg. 264


"We came to the question: what to with the women and children? I
decided to find a clear solution here as well. I did not consider
myself justified to exterminate the men - in other words, to kill them
or have them killed - and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons
in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to
be made to make this people disappear from the earth."
 
- Heinrich Himmler on October 6, 1943 in a speech to national and local
administrators in Poznan.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:43 EDT 2001
Article: 905787 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers,alt.flame.jews
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 12:26:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 82
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In article <3B183DEC.5ABE8843@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I grew up during the 1930s and early 40s and I can tell you --from personal
> experience-- that it was NOT a good time to be Jewish.  I can also tell you
> that
> there was nothing the least bit isolated or idiosyncratic about the
> expressing of
> such sympathies. You got it everywhere. Many congressmen were anti-Jewish and
> were
> at no pains to hide the fact.
> 
> Yet never ONCE did  I feel that there ought to be any legal or civil
> restriction on
> such conduct; indeed, I was not even able to imagine there BEING any.
> 
> I  felt then exactly the way  I feel today: that being made uncomfortable or
> having
> one's feelings hurt are nothing more and nothing less than the hazards of
> living in
> a free society.


You must have very thick skin and nerves of steel.

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The law protects me against being assaulted or robbed or swindled or libeled.

Unfortunately, some of the people that consider it their right to
address racial and ethnic epithets to perfect strangers also consider
it their right to physically assault them and maybe even kill them. I
like to think that society and civility have evolved somewhat since the
1930s and 40s. Assaulting an individual's feelings can have as
devastating effects as assaulting an individual's phydical person. 


> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> That
> protection I am entitled to and that is ALL the protection I am entitled to.
> 
> For me, the 200+ year old tradition of an  American having the freedom to
> speak his
> mind trumps the demands of noisy minorities with their super-sensitive
> nerve-endings --annoying nuisances without whom we could do very well.
> 
> =====================================================

There's another side to the coin. An establishment offering its
services to the general public should not be employing people whose job
it is to serve customers who insult perfect strangers for being what
they are as part of a commercial transaction. The establishment has
every right to discipline to the point of firing employees -
representatives of the establishement - who do not understand this.

I'm willing to live in a society where the occasional perfect stranger
can insult me verbally, or raise an ominous looking fist, give me a
"hate stare", or spit in front of me, as unpleasant as each such
occurrance is. I will not patronize establishments whose employees do
not accord me the normal respect they should accord a paying customer,
and I will report and follow up any instances of behavior that demeans
both the individual concerned and the establishment he or she works
for. Even in a perfectly homogeneous society, the sales clerk who
addresses a busty female customer as "melon-tits", an overweight as
"fatso", or an elderly one as "grave bait" is working against the best
interests of his employer. Nor, I think, would people with
extraordinary physical characteristics or handicaps always be able to
swallow their pride and ignore the insults hurled at them in public
places by perfect strangers. You always have minorities, and they will
always make noise about mistreatment, as hurling slurs and epithets,
and making threatening or insulting gestures to perfect starngers
certainly instantiate.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:43 EDT 2001
Article: 905796 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers,alt.flame.jews
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:35:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 25
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In article <3B18CE7B.BEF6A96A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 


> > I
> > like to think that society and civility have evolved somewhat since the
> > 1930s and 40s. Assaulting an individual's feelings can have as
> > devastating effects as assaulting an individual's physical person.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> That is the individual's problem, not society's.
> 
> ===================

It becomes society's problem when people are assaulted psychologically
so much and so regularly that they begin to become sociopathical. Loud,
noisy, and restive minorities are made, not born.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:44 EDT 2001
Article: 905800 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.australian,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jewish Conspiracy.
Supersedes: <020620011531448019%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 16:17:28 +0300
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In article , Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:310520012139246397%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > In article , Mack
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Jews supported? Don't make me laugh! For most of its existence the
> > Soviet Union was an actively anti-Semitic state where Jews were
> > harassed as a matter of state policy.
> 
>       It was an atheistic state. Maybe some Jews were harrassed. Christians
> were put in death camps by the millions.

Happy to see you admit that. Jews and Christians were harassed, as were
people who too openly professed belief in any other religion. I
attended services at synagogues, as well as at Russian Orthodox and
Lutheran churches in the USSR. They were allowed to function, but just
barely tolerated. Christians and Jews were sent to the camps, but not,
as a rule, for being Christians or Jews. It was more commonly for
speaking out too publicly against the government, for economic crimes,
such as private enterprise and profiteering, or for trying to
proselytize.


> > Only one language was ever
> > criminalized in the Soviet Union: Ivrit (Modern Hebrew). You must be
> > too young to remember the petty anti-Semitism revealed by the Doctors
> > Plot or Nathan Sharansky's efforts to emigrate.
> 
>      Of course the efforts of millions of Christians who wanted to leave
> were not in the news.

Yes they were. Anybody who followed the news knew about the stacks of
emigration applications and embarrassing defections of some of their
greatest artists such as Rudolf Nureyev and Viktoria Mullova, or their
top man in the UN, Arkhady Shevchenko.

>  The Soviet Union was
> > just another manifestation of Russian imperialism and chauvinism. It
> > was as viscerally Russian as vodka and borscht.
> >
>      It was started by Jews.

No it wasn't. It was started by one faction of the Communist Party,
many, but by no means all of the members of which were of Jewish
heritage, but not by belief or identity. The salient features of the
Bolsheviks were their belief in communism, their antipathy towards all
religions and nationalisms, and the fact that they represented a
variety of backgrounds, but spoke Russian. The fact that about half of
the first Blosheviks were of Jewish heritage, but anti-Zionist and
anti-clerical, has no bearing at all on the type of political structure
they set up in Russia.



>       The communists took over Hungary in 1919. Their leader was the Jew,
> Bela Kun (Cohen).

That revolutionary government lasted for less than a year.

> 
>      In Hungary, IIRC, the head of their VERY bloody communist secret
> police, Farkas (Wulf) was a  Jew. In fact, nearly all the highest ranking
> communist officials in post-war Hungary were Jews.

Such as Party Secretaries Rákosi and Kádar? Rákosi was of Jewish
origin, but he was ousted in 1956. Kádar, a non-Jew, was Party
Secretary from 1956 until 1988.

>       The leaders of communist Poland were the Jews Minc, Skryeszewski,
> Modzelewski, and Berman.

No. The big leaders of Comunist Poland were Party Secretaries Wladyslaw
Gomulka and Eduard Gierek.

> 
>      The leader of communist Roumania was the Jewess Anna Pauker

Nonsense. She served briefly in a late 1948 government, but was later
purged. The big names in Romanian communism were Party Secretaries
Gheorgiu-Dei and Nicolae Ceasescu.
 
>       The leader of communist Chechoslovakia was the Jew Rudolf Slansky.

Try again. Antonin Novotny, Alexander Dubcek, and Gustav Husak were the
leaders of communist Czechoslovakia.

> 
>        The leader of communist Yogoslavia was not a Jew. He was Tito,
> however he was tutored by a Jewish mentor named Mosa Pljade.

The leaders of no post-war Eastern European comunist governments were
Jews.


>     Communism in America was also Jewish.

Even though its presidential ticket consisted of Gus Hall, a Minnesota
Finn, and Angela Davis, an African-American.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:44 EDT 2001
Article: 905822 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers,alt.flame.jews
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:07:17 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <020620011807179379%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B18ED8E.E5733AB0@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 

> > > =====================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > That is the individual's problem, not society's.
> > >
> > > ===================
> >
> > It becomes society's problem when people are assaulted psychologically
> > so much and so regularly that they begin to become sociopathical. Loud,
> > noisy, and restive minorities are made, not born.
>
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I will concede one point and one point only. I would not allow a govvernment
> clerk serving the public to say: "Go to the end of the line, Nigger" --

How respectful of you to capitalize the "n-word".

> =======================================
> Phillips
>
> leastways without there having been considerable provocation. That's it.
> 
> For the rest, the rule will have to be that minorities adjust to the majority
> and not the other way around.
> 

My point, Richard, is that there will always be minorities: green-eyed
people, redheads, long-skulled people, broad-faced people, bald people,
buxom women, overweight people, elderly and slightly senile people,
blind people, deaf people, and, last but not least, males. If you have
a civil culture where it is acceptable for people to refer to and
address minorities using epithets and slurs focusing on the parameter
differentitaing them from Ms. Plain Vanilla, then you are going to have
friction between minorities and majorities. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:44 EDT 2001
Article: 906017 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers,alt.flame.jews
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:59:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <030620011559455014%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3B178A4D.8468D852@earthlink.net> <010620011643202911%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B183DEC.5ABE8843@earthlink.net> <020620011226218983%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B18CE7B.BEF6A96A@earthlink.net> <020620011535593351%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B18ED8E.E5733AB0@earthlink.net> <020620011807179379%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B1919D3.A43E8432@earthlink.net>  <3B1A2498.A2F2F560@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B1A2498.A2F2F560@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Andy Walton wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B1919D3.A43E8432@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >   :I never myself fling epithets at minorities and have very little respect
> >   for
> >   :people who do. My position is that it is only one of the many frictions
> >   of
> >   :a still very imperfect world and for any government to attempt to "fix"
> >   it
> >   :will only make theproblem worse.
> >
> > Then I have to wonder why you support a government that can and will use
> > any means, however unjust or brutal, to "fix" it.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I believe that the thing the ordinary black person needs above all is a place
> that
> is HIS, a place where he can say: "Here I'm as good as anybody."
> 
> ====================

That implies that ordinary black persons somehow feel that they are not
as good as anybody in the present-day United States. Your ghetto black,
pathetic as he is, represents a decreasing minority among black
Americans, some two thirds of whom are now comfortably in the middle
class. Numerically, if not percentually, poverty in the United States
is a "white" thing, something affecting the poor unemployable white
slobs you like to defend who never bothered to acquire marketable
skills and thought that middle class status was theirs as a matter of
birthright. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:45 EDT 2001
Article: 906052 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers,alt.flame.jews
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
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In article <3B1A398C.171F4447@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:


> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Overwhelmingly and deep down, they do not.
> 
> (1) How are we to account for the very lively sales of hair-straightener?

In the same manner as we account for the lively sales of hair curling
and frizzing agents, lip enhancement, and skin darkeners.


>==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> (2) As you yourself have pointed out, a considerable mixing of the races has
> already taken place in  America. You are aware, I am certain, that amongst
> coloured
> peoples, there is a considerable hierarchy based on lightness: to wit,
> lighter is
> better.

That is not as important now as it was a generation ago. One reason for
this is that the US now has immigration from Africa and Nigerians in
particular have shown that they are as good as anyone else. The color
hierarchy was a relict of an older form of racism. Nowadays there is no
doubt that coal-black people are capable of earning PhD's, doing
research, piloting jet airliners, etc., as there still was generally a
generation or two ago.

> (3) First they demanded equal employment opportunities. We gave them that,
> but it
> didn't make much difference. They then demanded MORE than equal
> opportunities. They
> called it affirmative action.

One of the best investments America ever made. And remember, the group
that benefitted most from affirmative action was white women.

> We gave them that but it still didn't make much
> difference. Now they are demanding  "reparations." Even when we have given
> them
> that (which we probably will) they STILL won't be satisfied because you cannot
> possibly have enough of what you don't realy want. The thing they really want
> is to
> be turrned white and that is something we cannot do for them.

Nonsense. The only thing minorities, be they black, handicapped, women,
Spanish-speaking, Vietnam veterans, want is a fair chance.

> 
> And this is why  I am  convinced that black people need a country of their
> own.

American blacks are a consequence of the American experience, many are
genetically more white than black. It is much easier to recognize this
and draw the necessary consequences than to work for fragmentation and
separation, which would not stop at whites and blacks having their own
countries.

> =============================================
> 
> 
> > Your ghetto black,
> > pathetic as he is, represents a decreasing minority among black
> > Americans, some two thirds of whom are now comfortably in the middle
> > class.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Whatever "gains" black people have made have been politically-commanded gains
> at
> the expense of whites. In any event I am no more disposed to believe your
> claims of
> how comfortably off black people are today than I am your preposterous claims
> that
> ordinary white people are better off today than they were in the mid-70s - a
> claim
> thoroughly refuted by Pat Buchanan.
> 
> =============================================

A black is Secretary of State, another, one of the leading American
experts on Russia, is National Security Advisor. My first cousin,
Willene A. Johnson
(http://www.ny.frb.org/pihome/orgchart/johnson.html), has long been a
senior official at the Federal Reserve Bank, once having had the
ultimate responsiblity for determining the international value of the
dollar,  and is now head of the World Bank's African operations. These
are just isolated examples, but they show that these gains are not just
"politically-commanded".

They are only "at the expense of whites" in the sense that black and
other minority group representatives have shown themselves to be more
competent than the whites who competed for the same jobs.

> > Numerically, if not percentually, poverty in the United States
> > is a "white" thing, something affecting the poor unemployable white
> > slobs you like to defend who never bothered to acquire marketable
> > skills and thought that middle class status was theirs as a matter of
> > birthright.
> 
> =====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Let .us talk about these "poor unemployable white slobs you like to defend who
> never bothered to acquire marketable skills"
> 
> Never bothered to obtain marketable skills, huh?
> 
> Does this include highly-skilled machinists who have spent their working lives
> becoming expert at their trade and who now, all of a sudden and with no
> warning,
> find themselves tossed on the scrapheap. You will say they should have seen
> what
> was coming and   "prepared" themselves for it. WHY should they have seen it.
> Their
> company bosses told them they had a golden future, their political leaders
> told
> them they had a golden future, and the economists (IF the machinists ever
> bothered
> to read them) told them they had a  golden future.
> 
> Does it include degreed engineers who got their "marketable skills" at
> university,
> went to work, did what they could do to "keep up" but now  find themselves
> tossed
> on the scrapheap by a number of factors:
> 
> (1) The nation's criminal folly of having not merely allowed manufacturing
> industry
> to leave this country but to have actualy ENCOURAGED the process. Naturally
> this
> has greatly narrowed opporunities for enginers.

Every country with a high standard of living has followed this same
pattern. Fifty years ago a Nigerian, Pakistani, or Mexican could hardly
hope to be an engineer, nowadays it is normal. Industry is no longer
the monopoly of the "First World": people in India, Bolivia, and Angola
have now mastered the skills necessary to produce a state-of-the-art
television, automobile, or pair of sneakers.

I live in Finland, and maintaining our relatively high standard of
living has led to the same choices. A generation ago Finland was a
highly industrialized country producing paper, wood pulp, and other
forest industry products. Now we are post-industrial, focusing on
Information technology (Nokia) and the export of the know-how to make
the world's best paper-making machines. Our "Mexico" is Estonia, where
the products once made by Finnish industrial workers are now
manufactured.

> =====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> (2) Their inexorable displacement by younger engineers who have the advantage
> of
> having acquired the latest technology at university during four years when
> they had
> nothing to do BUT study.
> 
> It is by statements about "poor unemployable white slobs" that you reveal
> your true
> colours (no pun intended). You hate,   fear, and despise the ordinary white people
> of   America and no veneer of erudition and verbosity can cover that up.
> 
> ======================================================

Living in Finland, I have no reason to hate, fear, or despise any
segment of the American population. My gripe was that a certain portion
of this American "Lumpenproletariat" had been used to thinking that
jobs and status were their privilege due to birthright. I really don't
care about the race, sex, or ethnicity of a person who has an important
job. I do care about the process that led to the decision to hire
him/her and not someone else. Whites, particularly White males, who
have not bothered to tailor or upgrade their skills to current
realities of supply and demand in the job market have, as I see it, no
right to claim special privileges.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:45 EDT 2001
Article: 906319 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:17:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 97
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In article <3B1B0E30.87CB821A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Because, you Mother's mistake, as I went to some length to point out, if the
> Germans HAD
> committed deliberate mass executions, they  would never have brought back
> survivors who
> would certainly have ended up in the hands of Allied interrogators to whom
> they would
> certainly have poured out . their tales of horror. Didn't anyone ever point
> out to you
> that dead men tell no tales?
> 
> In another post I opined that you have a high IQ. Do try not to let me down.
> 
> ==========================================

It's not that simple. As I have gone to some length to point out,
shooting more than 10,000 people at a time requires a considerable
amount of time and preparation, all the more so if your intended
victims know what your intentions are. The last weeks of Auscwitz were
a chaos, with the Red Army approaching from the east and chaos and
disease rampant in the camp. The gas chambers had been dismantled and
demolished. There were more than 6,000 people in the camp hospital.
Since extermination operation on women, children, and old people had
been stopped in November 1944, but transports had continued to bring
more people, the camp had, for the first time in its existence, large
numbers of such people who had to be fed and housed, but which were in
the way. Given that society was collapsing outside the camp, that mass
murdering 65,000 people was logistically impossible, and that if left
unsupervised, they would break out and terrorize the neighborhood in
their efforts to survive, the Auschwitz authorities had little choice
but arrange some kind of an organized march westwards.

Hoess tells us that planning for the evacuation of the camp was made
even more difficult by the fact that the Red Army was advancing more
rapidly than anticipated, The original plans to evacuate the 65,000
people who could be evacuated - the population of a small city - to the
Gross-Rosen concentration camp had to be scrapped because of Soviet
advances. Even as they left, the military situation was changing
rapidly, and it was not always possible to keep in contact with Pohl in
Berlin and Baer in the field, who were supposed to be coordinating camp
liquidations:

"  On all the roads and tracks in Upper Silesia west of the oder I now
met columns of prisoners, struggling through the deep snow. They had no
food. Most of the non-commissioned officers in charge of these
stumbling columns of corpses had no idea where they were supposed to be
going. They oly knew that their final destination was Gross-Rosen. But
how to get there was a mystery. On their own authority they
requisitioned food from the villages through which they passed, rested
for a few hours, then trudged on again. There was no question of
spending the night in barns or schools, because these were all crammed
with refugees. The route taken by these miserable columns was easy to
follow, since every few hundred yards lay the bodies of prisoners who
had collapsed or been shot. I directed all the columns I could reach to
go westawards, into the Sudetenland, so as to avoid the incredibly
chaotic bottle-neck near Neisse. I gave strict orders to the men in
charge of all these columns that they were not to shoot prisoners
incapable of further marching. They were to hand them over in the
villages to the _Volkssturm_. During the first night, on the road near
Leobschütz, I constantly came upon the bodies of prisoners who had just
been shot, and which were therefore still bleeding. On one occasion, as
I stopped my car by a dead body, I heard revolver shots quite near. I
ran towards the sound, and saw a soldier in the act of stopping his
motor cycle and shooting a prisoner leaning against a tree. I shouted
at him, asking him what he thought he was doing, and what harm the
prisoner had done him. He laughed impertinently in my face, and asked
me what I proposed to do about it. I drew my pistol and shot him
forthwith. He was a sergeant-major in the Air Force.
  Every now and then I also met officers from Auschwitz, who had
managed somehow or other to get hold of a vehicle, I posted them at
cross-roads, to collect these wandering columns of prisoners, and move
them westwards, eventually perhaps by train. I saw open coal trucks,
loaded with fresh corpses, whole trainloads of prisoners who had been
shunted on to open sidings and left there without food or shelter. Then
again there wre groups of prisoners, often without guards, who had
escaped or whose guards had simply vanished. They too were making their
way peacefully westwards. I also met unaccompanied British
prisoners-of-war doing the same: they were determined on no account to
fall into the hands of the Russians. I saw SS-men and prisoners huddled
together in the refugees' vehicles. I came upon columns of building
workers and agricultural labourers. No one knew where he was trying to
go. Gross-Rosen was the final destination of them all. There was deep
snow at the tima and it was very cold. The roads were blocked by Army
and Air Force columns, and by crowds of refugees. The slippery surface
caused innumerable car accidents."
Rudolf Hoess. _Commandant of Auschwitz_. London: Phoenix 1959 [2000],
pg. 169 ff.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:45 EDT 2001
Article: 906323 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
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In article <3B1B0245.F5A53647@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Really, now?  How "well-researched" was his statement that ordinary Americans
> are
> better of today than they were in the mid-1970s?
> I was able to quote from not one, not two, not three but NINE books all of
> which said
> he was wrong.

I am able to quote statistics giving figures for GNP or GDP growth as
well as comparisons of the living standard in the US with that of other
countries over the past 30 years to show that I am right. For starters:

Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Econ


Economy - overview: The US has the most technologically powerful,
diverse, advanced, and largest economy in the world, with a per capita
GDP of $33,900. In this market-oriented economy, private individuals
and business firms make most of the decisions, and government buys
needed goods and services predominantly in the private marketplace. US
business firms enjoy considerably greater flexibility than their
counterparts in Western Europe and Japan in decisions to expand capital
plant, lay off surplus workers, and develop new products. At the same
time, they face higher barriers to entry in their rivals' home markets
than the barriers to entry of foreign firms in US markets. US firms are
at or near the forefront in technological advances, especially in
computers and in medical, aerospace, and military equipment, although
their advantage has narrowed since the end of World War II. The onrush
of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier
labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the
professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more,
fail to get pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits.
Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to
the top 20% of households. The years 1994-99 witnessed solid increases
in real output, low inflation rates, and a drop in unemployment to
below 5%. Long-term problems include inadequate investment in economic
infrastructure, rapidly rising medical costs of an aging population,
sizable trade deficits, and stagnation of family income in the lower
economic groups. The outlook for 2000 is clouded by the continued
economic problems of Japan, Russia, Indonesia, Brazil, and many other
countries. Domestically, the potentially most serious problem is the
exuberant level of stock prices in relation to corporate earnings. 


In a way, this excerpt supports your contention, since it says that
practically all of the benefits of the past 25 years have gone to the
top 20%. On the other hand, the top 25% 25 years ago largely excluded
women and minorities, unlike the case today. Thus, that top 20% is more
ordinary now in that it more truly reflects the demographic makeup of
the country than it did a quarter of a century ago: there are fewer
WASP
males, who were disproportionately represented then, and
correspondingly more women, Asians, blacks, and Hispanics in that top
20%.

Notice, however, that it also emphasizes that American prosperity is
partially the result that American firms have more freedom to downsize,
lay off, and relocate than their competitors in Western Europe and
Japan, and that the economy is booming despite the fact that its
markets are more open - less protected - than those in Western Europe
and Japan.



> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> How well researched was his claim that in America today, poverty is largely a
> white
> thing?

I stated specifically that the largest number of poor people in white.
That's not the same as saying that percentually more blacks and Spanish
speakers are poor than is the case for whites. There are more poor
white people than poor prople of other races for the simple reason that
there are far more white people than people of other races in the USA.
It's the same with crime: blacks are convicted, percentually, of more
crimes than whites are. Nevertheless, from a purely numerical
standpoint whites are convicted of absolutely more crimes than blacks
are for the simple reason that there are far more whites than blacks.

> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> How well researched was his attempt to rationalise the decision of the
> Auschwitz camp
> authorities to allow (or compel) the surviving inmates to return West with
> them -
> sure, so they could spill their guts to Allied interrogators.

We have photographs, reports by the American military, and other
evidence that this was the case.


> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Now it may be
> the case
> that there were deliberate mass executions at Auschwitz and may be the case
> that the
> Germans allowed the survivors to return with them. Either one. or the other
> of these
> things could be true but it is not possible that both are.

> ========================================================

No, Richard, they are both true. 

Standing orders were to liquidate concentration camps by killing all
but the most able-bodied inamtes. We have detailed accounts of the
killings and forced evacuations that marked the liquidation of the
Auschwitz, Salaspils, and other camps in the face of the advancing red
Army.

In January 1945 the Auschwitz camp had more than 80,000 inmates. There
was just not enough time to shoot them all, and the gas chambers had
been destroyed. An unknown number were shot, some 6,000 were left
behind, and some 65,000 were deathmarched westwards.

This was done quite publicly and, as I said, it was documented in such
sources as the military reports compiled by the US Army when they came
upon groups of people being death marched.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:46 EDT 2001
Article: 906332 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:04:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B1B0E30.87CB821A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have learned that he is exceptionally skilled at collecting and storing the
> sort of
> information that supports his belief system. How skilled he is at getting the
> other kind,
> I could not say.
> 
> ========================================

When it comes to the question of whether the Germans death-marched tens
of thousands of concentration camp inmates as part of concentration
camp liquidation, there does not seem to be any evidence to the
contrary. On the other hand we have photographs, testimony, the
detailed description of the chaos in the countryside by Hoess as he
tried to maintain some semblance of order, the field reports and
medical records, including photographs, from the US Army of abandoned
groups of prisoners which they encountered, photographs and other
records of their mass graves, as well as several post-war court trials
devoted to the death marches. I can see no reason for a rational person
to deny the historical factuality of the Auschwitz death march,
particularly when we have additional evidence of evacuations from other
outlying camps such as Salaspils, Kaiserwald, and Strazdu Muiz^a, being
conducted in the same chaotic and homicidal manner.

When it comes to the question of homicidal gas chambers at
Auschwitz-Stammlager and Auschwitz-Birkenau, even the best denier
arguments admit that there is no denying the fact that the premices
alleged to have been gas chambers were repeatedly exposed to cyanide in
lethal concentrations high enough to allow for the formation of cyanide
compounds wich are still detectable half a century later, despite
exposure to weathering. They get around this awkward physical evidence
by claiming: 
1) it takes "colossally higher concentrations of cyanide to kill people
than it does to kill lice"; 
2) cyanide could not have been used in the premises, because it would
explode or poison the camp;
3) cyanide is too dangerous and difficult to handle;
4) the Germans had developed much more efficient nerve gasses and they
would not be working to maximum efficiency if they had used cyanide;
5) it would have been easier to shoot the people than gas them;
6) the compounds result from a non-recorded fumigation of the buildings
"once long ago" during the 1942 typhus epidemic.

We've been through these and many other claims before. They are
outright lies, such as 1), 2), and 3), silliness, such as 4) and 5), or
examplars of speculation supported by historical ignorance, such as 6),
which, on sloser examination, turn out to be lies of omission. The
buildings in question were not built until 1943, information available
in any history of the Auschwitz camp and something which someone
claiming to be an expert witness should have checked.

I always try to consider all sides of an issue before entering a fray.
But when I see people support their viewpoint with a whopper like 1), a
quote from David Irving at the Leuchter Press Conference, I know that
one side is arguing either from ignorance, or, more likely, the hope
that people will be too lazy or ignorant to check the facts. My belief
system is based upon the assumption that something approaching
historical truth may be obtained by examining the evidence which an
historical event necessarly generates, and interpreting it using the
tools of the historian's craft:  rational thought processes and modes
of argumentation in the light of other general and specific knowledge
we have about the event and specific type of evidence. People
presenting their case with statements easily verified to be either
untrue, such as 1), 2), 3), 6), or idle speculation, such as  4) and
5), do not have a "side" to defend.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:46 EDT 2001
Article: 906378 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
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In article <040620011524110355%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
 wrote:

> In article <3B1B0245.F5A53647@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> > ========================================
> > Phillips
> > 
> > Really, now?  How "well-researched" was his statement that ordinary
> > Americans
> > are
> > better of today than they were in the mid-1970s?
> > I was able to quote from not one, not two, not three but NINE books all of
> > which said
> > he was wrong.

This is the trend:

Source:
http://cnn.countrywatch.com/files/182/cnn_topic.asp?vCOUNTRY=182&TP=ECO

United States
Macroeconomic Activity
Real GDP Per Capita

 
                1995       1996        1997        1998        1999

Real GDP
(Mill. 1995$US) 7,423,159  7,688,166   8,014,913   8,360,355   8,707,310

Total Population
(Mill.-Mid Year Average)
                  263.044    265.463     268.008     270.561     273.131

Real GDP Per Capita
(1995$US Per Capita)
                   28,220     28,961      29,905      30,900      31,880


Sources:
US CIA World Factbook, IMF World Outlook,
US Census Bureau International Data Base,
UN Statistical Yearbook, CountryWatch.com Calculations

********************************************************
>From the same source:

The beneficiaries of rapid asset growth during the latter half of the
last decade were almost exclusively (98 percent) households with income
levels of US$50,000 or greater. This same group also generated
two-thirds of the increase in consumer consumption over the same
period. Thus, the current period of prosperity has increased income
disparity in the U.S. and poverty, despite high labor utilization
rates, has not declined during the last two decades.


As I understand it, and I don't think we disagree too much on this
issue, is that 25 years ago, a WASP male with a high school diploma had
a relatively easy time finding a job which would enable him to purchase
a house and start a family. This was much more difficult for a black,
and Hispanic, or a female of any ethnicity, even if they possessed a
college degree. Now a high school diploma is virtually worthless, but a
college degree is more important than the sex or ethnicity of the
person who has earned it.

On the one hand, the WASP male has to face tougher competition.
Affirmative Action, now mostly phased out, put him in a disadvantageous
position with respect to women and minorities. Now there is a tradition
of women and minorities in the better paying jobs, and the WASP male
has to live with the fact that he will always have to compete with
them, that his ethnicity and Anglo surname are no longer door-openers.
This means that there is more poverty among WASP males than there was
25 years ago; that poverty has been democratized, to the disadvantage
of the WASP male. On the other hand, there are more women, including
WASP women, and minorities in the better positions where skill,
educational background, and proven competence, rather than supposed
birthright and tradition, are the criteria that secure a person a
well-paying job. The job market is being redefined along strictly
results-oriented lines, with access to elite status being democratized,
once again in a manner disadvantageous to the WASP male. In the US
there are, proportionately, more whites living in poverty than ever
before, and since whites make up the largest demographic group,
American poverty is now an essentially white thing, as recently
exemplified so clearly with that semi-wild family in Idaho. On the
other hand, whites have had a tradition of defining and being in the
mainstream, for which reason a greater proportion of blacks and
Hispanics still live and have lived in poverty than is the case for
whites.

Despite everything, what counts as poverty in the US in the year 2001
would not have counted as poverty in 1975 or today in much of the
industrialized world. Back then, the GDP was about half what it is
today. Many poor Americans own their own houses and have one or even
two cars, as well as many of the latest electronic gadgets at home.
Neither are they poorly fed. Many of them are stuck in dead-end jobs
which bring them little pleasure and offer no opportunities for
advancement. For many, however, the possibility of becoming
entrepreneurs still exists. In no country in the world is it easier to
turn a good business idea into a company which can lift its founder out
of poverty.

The main difference between the United States and Western Europe is
that since the war we in Europe have seen poverty as a structural
problem that can be reduced or virtually eliminated, even in a
capitalist, free-market economy, by centrally planned structural
changes, redistribution of income through high taxes, and national
health insurance. Even though statistics say that out GDP here in
Finland at about $20,000 is two thirds what you have in the USA, our
cities look more affluent and society gives the impression of being
more prosperous because we have no poverty traps, no slums, no
oppressed minorities. The greatest effort is given to ensure that all
children start on a level playing field, and that the next generation
does not have to suffer because of the mistakes made by its parents.
Our multiparty system ensures that all groups have a say in decisions
affecting society. There is a strong feeling here of collective
responsibility, and that everyone gains by assisting those who are
unable or even unwilling to help themselves. In the US you have more
money, but it is distributed in such a way that some people earn
millions of dollars for playing ball a few months a year, while
millions of others work hard but can only afford to live in quite
modest and uncertain circumstances, with the added indignity of knowing
that the birthright which entitled their parents to preferable
treatment is no longer valid. There is little sense of overall social
responsibility - indeed I get the impression that there is more "me"
vs. the rest of the world-ism than ever before - and insofar as there
is any feeling of community, it still goes along racial, ethnic, or
religious lines, even if this seems to be gradually changing into class
lines: the 20% who live extremely well vs, the 80% that are just making
it. This type of adversarial society has given the US just about the
highest living standard in the world from a statistical standpoint, so
you must be doing something right. It has also resulted in the tensions
which the statistics hide, such as racial fanaticism, opportunistic
violent crime, and, in my view, a rather unpleasant country to live in
if you belong to whichever visible minority is the current whipping
boy.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:47 EDT 2001
Article: 906714 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:22:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B1C6FFA.26D1D84F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:

> > Did anyone ever point out to you that the Germans did *not* bring the
> > "survivors" back with them so they would fall into Allied hands?  That
> > such was not their intention?  Could they have brought them back so they
> > wouldn't spill their guts to the Russians, who were much closer?  The
> > German strategy in 1945 was to try and split the Allies, and join wity
> > the west against the Russians.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Your claim would be believable IF there had been no mass exterminations.
> However, given your
> insistance that there HAD been mass exterminations, it is not believable.
> 
> ===============================

Do you deny:
1. That prisoners were death-marched from several outlying camps during
the last months of WW II, despite the existence of US Army military and
medical reports, mass graves, court testimony, photgraphs, and other
evidence?
2. That death-marching prisoners was a rational solution in the sense
that just abandoning them would have resulted in the healthiest and
most ruthless among them roaming the countryside and engaging in
violent confrontations with the German population over such praxctical
issues as food and accommodation, as well as more abstract ones such as
revenge?
3. That abandoning the 6,000 prisoners who were accutely in need of
medical assistance as well as the several thousand shot but unburied
prisoners was a strategically better move than killing them all would
have been because it would necessarily slow down the westward advance
of the Red Army and force them to devote precious manpower and
resources to dealing with the human disaster that they found there?

The issue of mass exterminations was hardly important in January 1945.
The camp authorities had to deal with the fact that they had 80,000
people on their hands, communications with Pohl in Berlin and Baer in
the field were not working, the Red Army was approaching from several
directions, there was little food, and society outside the camps had
degenerated into an every-man-for-himself state of chaos. The question
of maintaining some kind of order and saving their own necks on a
day-to-day basis - they were vastly outnumbered by the prisoners - was
more important to those in charge of keeping things under control than
the prospect of their being tried some day in the distant future. As we
know, many of the camp guards and SS-men were faceless, and they were
able to vanish into the woodwork as, indeed, Hoess himself successfully
did for more than a year until his arrest on March 11, 1946.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:47 EDT 2001
Article: 906861 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Supersedes: <050620012127250700%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:11:19 +0300
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In article <3B1CEF8C.ECBA74D5@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B1C6FFA.26D1D84F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Gord McFee wrote:
> >
> > > > Did anyone ever point out to you that the Germans did *not* bring the
> > > > "survivors" back with them so they would fall into Allied hands?  That
> > > > such was not their intention?  Could they have brought them back so they
> > > > wouldn't spill their guts to the Russians, who were much closer?  The
> > > > German strategy in 1945 was to try and split the Allies, and join wity
> > > > the west against the Russians.
> > >
> > > ============================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Your claim would be believable IF there had been no mass exterminations.
> > > However, given your
> > > insistance that there HAD been mass exterminations, it is not believable.
> > >
> > > ===============================
> >
> > Do you deny:
> > 1. That prisoners were death-marched from several outlying camps during
> > the last months of WW II, despite the existence of US Army military and
> > medical reports, mass graves, court testimony, photgraphs, and other
> > evidence?
> 
> =====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Death-marched? In view of this "death-marching" I find it strange that there
> have been SO many "survivors."
> 
> ========================================================

Thousands of people died by the roadside, as photographs, reports by
the US Army, and the Germans all confer, others died of exhaustion,
starvation, and exposure shortly after having been abandoned by their
guards. The survivors of the Helmbrecht's death march were more dead
than living when found abandoned:

"At the barn I met Capt. Wa. and asked him what he had. He replied that
it was the most horrible sight he ever laid eyes on...My first glance
at these individuals was one of extreme shock not ever believing that a
human being can be so degraded, can be starved, can be so skinny and
even live under such circumstances."

Oral testiomony given at StA Hof 2 Js 1325/62 by a captain of the 5th
Medical Battalion, 5th Infantry Division of the US Army on May 9, 1945,
concerning a group of 118 female survivors of the Helmsbrecht's death
march at Volary. Czechoslovakia. Quoted in Goldhagen, _HWE_, pgs. 330
ff.

If you are marching some 65,000 people of various ages and in various
states of health through the winter snow, barefoot and with only their
thin prison uniforms on for several days at a time with no food and
water obtained only by eating snow, it should be obvious that some are
going to live but most are not.


> > 2. That death-marching prisoners was a rational solution in the sense
> > that just abandoning them would have resulted in the healthiest and
> > most ruthless among them roaming the countryside and engaging in
> > violent confrontations with the German population over such praxctical
> > issues as food and accommodation, as well as more abstract ones such as
> > revenge?
> 
> =======================================================
> Phillips
> 
> "healthiest and most ruthless among them"
> 
> I find it strange that, in view of the regime of overwork and starvation you
> claim was imposed on them, there were any healthy and ruthless people
> remaining.
> 
> ============================================

Fresh transports of prisoners were being delivered to Auschwitz right
up until the first weeks of January, 1945. Thousands of people there
were quite healthy, many thousands more, no matter what their state of
health, were itching for revenge. And, most importantly, the Nazis
had the weapons, but they were outmanned by at least an order of
magnitude by the prisoners. Having survived until what was obviously
the final phase of the war, both the prisoners and the Nazis were
thinking about how they could best save their own skins, as is only
natural. It was a very explosive situation, one in which the instinct
to survive must have been tuned up to its highest amperage for all
parties concerned. 

I'd be curious to hear how you think it could have been dealt with more
effectively: you've got 72,000 prisoners on your hands, 6,000 of them
bedridden, perhaps 8,000 guards, SS-men, administrators, and other
personnel, thousands of freshly shot bodies of men, women, and children
lying all over the place, and the Red Army is within hearing distance.
Berlin has given a general order to evacuate the camp, but hasn't
given more specific inctructions. Hitler assures - dunh - that Germany
will still pull the war out of the fire with the super weapons that are
presently in their final stages of development.

> =================================================
> PHillips
>
> > 3. That abandoning the 6,000 prisoners who were accutely in need of
> > medical assistance as well as the several thousand shot but unburied
> > prisoners was a strategically better move than killing them all would
> > have been because it would necessarily slow down the westward advance
> > of the Red Army and force them to devote precious manpower and
> > resources to dealing with the human disaster that they found there?
> 
> =================================================
> PHillips
> 
> You're improvising.

No I'm not. I'm using what is known about the last days of Auschwitz
(see e.g
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Zeittafel%28Tab%29.htm
l).

> 
> (1) You tell us that abamdoning the inmates would have been a better strategy
> than killing them but you do not tell us why taking them along (which they
> did)
> was a better strategy than abandoning them.

They used three strategies:
1) Mass shootings. This was the standard method of liquidating a camp,
but they had about 80,000 people on their hands. There just wasn't time
to organize a mass killing of so many people, particularly if they were
outmanned 10 to 1. Several thousand inmates were mass shot before the
SS decided that they didn't have the resouces, most importantly the
time, to finish the job.
2) Abandon the weakest. The Soviets found the camp with some 6,000
people in various states of illness and disability, most of them
bedridden, but with no medical staff in sight, when they entered the
camp.
3) Death-march the strongest. The weakest of the strongest would die of
exposure and abuse, the strongest of the strongest would arrive at the
Gross-Rosen camp to continue a life of brutalization as concentration
camp inmates, useful for more slave labor, as human shields - not even
the Red Army would be likely to attack a line of 100 prisoners with 10
SS men interspersed among them - or as bargaining chips. The war was
practically speaking over, society had collapsed, millions of refugees,
concentration camp inmates, and fleeing German soldiers were all rushing
their way westwards, the monetary system had collapsed, women were
exchanging their virtue for a piece of bread. A live, relatively
healthy Jew would certainly have been worth at least as much as a
hostage or bargaining chip.

> 
> (2) Neither you nor   I are well qualified to conjecture about what the Red
> Army
> would have "had" to do. 

We don't have to resort to conjecture when there is abundant historical
evidence available.

> It was not a British nor an American army. It was an
> utterly ruthless semi-Asiatic army ruled by iron discipline, not overly
> concerned with tidiness, and driven by one thought and one thought only: to 
> get
> to Berlin and wreak the vengeance they were lusting to wreak.

The Soviets were not monsters and they did slow down their advance on
Berlin and take care of the people abandoned Auschwitz to the degree
possible. There were also thousands of bodies lying around and this
necessitated their devoting some of their resources to the paractical
necessity of body disposal and others to documentation of obvious
exterminational activity. The Soviets were the ones, after all, that
produced the notorious 4M figure a few weeks after the camp was taken
on the basis of their preliminary analysis of the camp throughput,
their interviews with inmates, and their overall assessment of the
situation. Otto Frank, one of the bedridden people at the camp when the
Soviets arrived, was given the requisite medical treatment by his
Soviet
liberators and eventually wound up at a DP camp in Odessa from which he
was repatriated, minus his Nazi-murdered family, to the Netherlands
several months later.

All extant evidence indicates that the Soviets treated the survivors
they found at Auschwitz in a humane and decent manner, and that they
considered the catastrophic state the camp was in to justify diverting
resources from the march on Berlin to take care of the people and
situation they found there. Neither do we have to think of their
motives as being entirely altruistic: Auschwitz was a propaganda plum,
a smoking gun, massive evidence of deliberate exterminational activity 
even with the gas chambers demolished.


> (3)  "Precious" manpower. To the Red Army there was nothing the least bit
> "precious" about manpower. They had it in great abundance and used it
> profligately to achieve tactical goals. In the Red Army of that day there was
> no
> "overhead" period. EVERY soldier was a combat soldier.   Did you know that
> they
> did not even deliver MAIL to soldiers, because doing so would have meant
> taking
> men from combat duties.
> 
> ================================================

Living in Finland and having heard hundreds of stories about the
Finnish Winter and Continuation Wars with the Soviets, as the 1939-40
and 1941-44 campaigns against the USSR are called here, I am fully
aware of the manner in which the USSR used its manpower.

Nevertheless, in January 1944 approaching Auschwitz, which is several
hundred kilometers from Berlin, the Soviets were still an invading army
fighting on extremely well defended hostile territory. The assault on
Berlin did not even begin until April 16, 1945, two and a half months
after Auschwitz fell. In these conditions, the resources and manpower
the Soviets had to devote to assessing and dealing with situation at
Auschwitz were indeed "precious". In the excerpt from the Höss memoirs
that I posted yesterday he noted that the British POWs he met were
rushing westwards as fast as they could to avoid falling into the hands
of the Soviets. Why? Because everyone knew how ruthless the Soviet Army
was, and how desperate they were to get to Berlin. Nobody could bet
that they would indeed divert "precious" resources to the Auschwitz
camp, and few were willing to wait and find out for themselves.

> >
> > The issue of mass exterminations was hardly important in January 1945.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Not important? I'd say it was very much on the minds of the Western powers.
> And
> IF the Germans had actually been committing it, they would have known that
> they
> were    going to have to answer for it.
> 
> ================================================

Not important in the sense that niceties such as trials, war crimes,
and guilt were not as foremost on people's minds as surving the next
hour.


> > The camp authorities had to deal with the fact that they had 80,000
> > people on their hands, communications with Pohl in Berlin and Baer in
> > the field were not working, the Red Army was approaching from several
> > directions, there was little food,
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> So they chose to bring along on their march an additional 80,000 useless
> mouths
> that would hav to be fed.
> 
> ====================================================

Hate to break this to you Richard, but they didn't feed them. This was
one of several hundred _death marches_. You don't feed people on a
death march: the object is to exhaust and starve them so that they fall
dead, using them as human shields while they are alive to prevent air
and sniper attacks:

"After several days without food or drink ­ we spent the nights
outdooors in the snow, the conditions were extremely bad ­ many died
>from exhaustion. Every morning when we got up, many remained lifeless
on the ground." 
- ZStL 410 AR 1750/61, p. 401, quoted in _HWE_, pg. 334.

"A few women from Sangerberg tried to pass the prisoners [being
death-marched through the town, EH] some bread. At once, however, the
nearby SS women prevented it. A male guard threatened one of the women
who wanted to distribute food that he would shoot her if she should try
again to pass food to the prisoners. In two cases, one guard struck
with his rifle butt prisoners who wanted to accept foodstuffs. A female
guard cast bread, which had been intended for the prisoners, to
chickens."
- StA Hof 2 Js 1325/62, Judgment, Dörr, pg. 57 quoted in _HWE_, pg. 348.
 
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is hardly as if they were suddenly faced with a "crisis," as if they woke
> up
> one day and realized: "Yipe, the Red Army is practically here." They had been
> following and were fully aware of the Red Army's advances day by day. They
> knew
> that it would soon be at the camp and they had had months to prepare for this
> eventuality, months in which to carry out the most "rational" response of
> killing the survivors.

Things didn't work like that. The Germans, seem to have been caught by
surprise.

Up until late November, 1944, they had been gassing spent workers and
useless mouths to feed on arrival. After that Himmler issued orders
that the gas chambers be demolished, and that Jews be taken care of.
The purpose was obviously to create an atmosphere which would have made
a possible separate peace with the Western Allies possible. This meant
that Auschwitz, with small children, mothers with babies, and elderly
peoples, began to rsemble a normal city with its spectrum of stronger
and weaker people, than it had prevously. In any case, Hoess writes
that defeatism was expressly forbidden, new super weapons were
constantly being promised, and the flow of news even along official
channels, was spotty. He was not always able to contact the two people
in charge of concentration camps at the time, and the order to evacuate
the camp came unexpectedly in less than optimal circumstances.

> 
> One of the things that most arouses my suspicions about your Holocaust is that
> your story smells too much of  improvisation, of inventing "facts" as needed
> to
> meet the tactical needs of debate.

The Holocaust lasted for twelve years and unfolded in more than fifteen
countries. There is a vast amount of facts out there for those willing
to look for anmd investigate them. The Holocaust as it unfolded in
Denmark, where the Jews were "allowed" to escape to Sweden is quite
different from the Holocaust in Estonia, where almost every Jew was
killed on a case-by-case basis, in Poland, where nine out of ten Jews
were killed, in Hungary, where Jews were allowed to live in relative
peace until 1944 when they were rounded up and killed with a vengeance,
or in Bulgaria and Finland, whose governments were able to use
diplomacy to such an extent that not a single Bulgarian or Finnish Jew
was a Holocaust victim. Finland, however, gave into German diplomatic
pressure and handed over seven Jews who had sought refuge in Finland to
the German authorities, who were subsequently killed at Auschwitz.
Similarly, the Bulgarian army, following German orders, killed several
thousand Jews in occupied Macedonia.

You suffer from the delusion that the Holocaust was a monolithic
process. In actual fact its implementation was strongly defined by
local conditions. What happened in Norway, whose tiny Jewish population
was picked up, deported, and exterminated in two sudden raids in 1943
and 1944, is quite different from what happened in Greece and the
Netherlands, whose ancient and much larger Jewish populations were
picked up in accordance with detailed and closely coordinated
schedules.


> Eugene you have regaled us and regaled us
> with post after post after post designed to prove one thing: that the Germans

Not the Germans, the Nazis. Vive la difference!

> of
> that day were ruthless and murderous people, that they massacred at  
> Auschwitz,
> that they massacred at Kiev, that they massacred at Riga, etc etc.

They did. The "facts" come from such sources as post-war trials, the
many peer-reviewed academic books and articles in academic journals
written about the Holocaust and the concentration camps, and the
depositions of witnesses such as Hoess, Tauber, and Münch. The
admissions made by the one-time king of Holocaust revisionism, David
Irving, the expert witness reports drawn up by van Pel and Evens, and
the various articles dealing with the travesty of science known as the
_Leuchter Report_ hava also provided much interesting material. I've
also visited the museums of municipal history in Kiev and Riga and have
a very clear idea of what went on at Babi Yar and Rumbula.

> Well now
> your chickens have come home to roost. Now you are under the necessity of
> coming
> up with  "reasons"why the Germans, surely the killingest people on the face of
> the earth,, did NOT similarly dispatch the relatively modest number of
> remaining
> survivors when it would clearly been in their best interest to do exactly
> that.
> 
> ===============================================================

Simple. The answer is the same as the one to the question of why they
lost the war: they didn't have the resources. They were outnumbered 10
to 1, the Red Army was approaching rapidly. Death-marching people for
days or even weeks through a winter landscape barefoot and in flimsy
prison uniforms providing them with no food or water was, all options
considered, the best way to kill as many people as possible and yet
still derive some strategic value from the inmates that were still
alive. Dead men tell no tales, but neither do they protect you from
Allied air attacks, snipers, or retribution.

The same strategy that caused the Soviets to divert valuable resources
to the 6,000 people they found at Auschwitz would also afford German
SS-men and guards found with prisoners with a chance to divert Allied
attention and possibly vanish into the woodwork. It worked for Rudolf
Hoess. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:48 EDT 2001
Article: 906867 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:36:24 +0300
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In article <3B1D2184.564FCCAD@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Hmmm. Elie Wiesel seemed to have endd up none the worse for it. Has he
> memtioned
> this in any of his books? Or possibly he felt that the less said about his
> decisoin
> to return with the Germans, the better.
> 
> ================================

There was a lot of negative propaganda about the Red Army,
capisce/ponimayete? It was the choice between the Devil you know and
the Devil you don't.

> > "After several days without food or drink ­ we spent the nights
> > outdooors in the snow, the conditions were extremely bad ­ many died
> > from exhaustion. Every morning when we got up, many remained lifeless
> > on the ground."
> > - ZStL 410 AR 1750/61, p. 401, quoted in _HWE_, pg. 334.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Possibly so but you are telling this to someone who has seen "survivor"
> testimony
> before -- seen lots of it.
> 
> =========================================

The bag-of-bones photographs and medical reports are completely
consistent with their testimony.

> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Caught by surprise? If I am permitted to assume that they had some interest
> in their
> own survival, I'd have thought that they would have followed the progress of
> the Red
> Army with the CLOSEST of attention.
> 
> ==================================================

In a dictatorship which only disseminates good news, this would have
been impossible.

> > You suffer from the delusion that the Holocaust was a monolithic
> > process. In actual fact its implementation was strongly defined by
> > local conditions.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> On the contrary, I have been all along saying very much the same. thing -
> without
> of course using the word Holocaust.
> 
> ========================================

Touché!

> 
> > What happened in Norway, whose tiny Jewish population
> > was picked up, deported, and exterminated in two sudden raids in 1943
> > and 1944, is quite different from what happened in Greece and the
> > Netherlands, whose ancient and much larger Jewish populations were
> > picked up in accordance with detailed and closely coordinated
> > schedules.
> >
> > > Eugene you have regaled us and regaled us
> > > with post after post after post designed to prove one thing: that the
> > > Germans
> >
> > Not the Germans, the Nazis. Vive la difference!
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Do you go along with Mr  Gold hagen who maintaino that the difference was
> negligible
> assuming it existed at all.
> 
> ============================

That is a _very difficult question_, one that I would, prefer not to
answer in this context. I do not share Goldhagen's view that
anti-Semitism is an inseparable component of German culture, although,
conversant with the history of Yiddish, the views of Martin Luther,
Richard Wagner, and Friedrich Nietzsche, as well as with the works of
Heinrich Heine, Felix Mendelssohn, Franz Kafka, and Sigmond Freud,
among others, I am ready to admit that it has played a significant role
in defining German culture.


> > > ===============================================================
> >
> > Simple. The answer is the same as the one to the question of why they
> > lost the war: they didn't have the resources.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Indeed? They didn't have enough rifle/machine gun bullets? And there is no
> way they
> could possibly have requisitioned them. Now if my name were Jeffrey Brown and
> if
> THIS Jeffrey Brown were a revisionist, then I would plague with a
> pestiferating
> question like:
> 
> "Oh, can you tell us exactly what were their stocks of ammunition at the time.
> Didn't think you could, oh Gutless One."
> 
> ==================================================
>

It's not a question of having or requisitioning the ammo, it's a
question of killing some 70,000 people within a brief timespan when you
are outnumbered 10 to 1 and the Soviets are breathing on your heels.

Mass-shooting was hardly the optimal choice in those circumstances.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:48 EDT 2001
Article: 907179 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:55:55 +0300
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In article <3B1D9442.A7758268@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 quoted:

> Hitler could already go into factories, something no man of the
> so-called Right before him would have risked doing, and hold forth to
> the mob of workers, tens of thousands of them at a time, as in the
> Siemens works. In contrast to the von Papens and other country
> gentlemen, he might tell them, "In my youth I was a worker like you.
> And in my heart of hearts, I have remained what I was then."

Hitler was lying. He was never a worker. In his youth he was a vagrant,
often without a fixed address, who occasionally was able to scrounge up
enough money to paint pictures. The products of his artistic efforts
were so awful that he could only sell them to picture frame merchants
as neutral backgrounds to draw attention to the frames. After
volunteering for the army and serving on the front, he was employed as
a spy by the German security service to infiltrate and keep track of a
tiny grouping of anti-Semitic right-wing extremists: the National
Socialist Workers' Party. The rest is history.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:48 EDT 2001
Article: 907194 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
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In article <3B1D9834.144AA760@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
>  I have to say that these innumerable flip-flops are bewildering to my
> ponderous thought
> processes.


Why? What was possible in 1940 was not possible in 1945? Leaders
change, situations change, objectives change.

> (1) The original goal was just to get the Jews out of Europe, Madagascar
> being among the possibilties.

A very remote possibility given that:
1. Madagascar was a French colony to which the Germans had no rights
whatsoever.
2. Madagascar already had a population.
3. Moving some 12,000,000 people from more than 25 countries against
their will, their rights as citizens of the countries concerned, and
the express desire of the requisite governments, to another continent
is an unprecedented operation which would have caused enormous
bloodshed and required vast resources.

 
> (2) Then, sometime 1n 1940 or 41 (if I have it right) the decisoin was mae.
> to exterminate them  -
> principally by the instprmentality of lapi. gas chambers - which policy you
> claim was carried out.

Not quite. The decision was made to ghettoize them, dispossess them,
and then exterminate them in the type of mass public shooting
operations conducted by the Einsatskommandos, the Security Police, and
local fascistic groupings such as the Arâjs Kommando in Latvia that
took place at Tartu, Riga, Kiev, Odessa, Minsk, S^iauliai, Kaunas,
Dnepropetrovsk, Starokamensk, and many other places.

These operations proved themselves to be logistically difficult and
psychologically taxing, in addition to which they were public relations
disasters for the Germans. Even if locals were initially active in
killing Jews in Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine, their enthusiasm soon
waned when they understood that the Germans really meant business and
were not just killing off a few thousand Jews as "punishment" for
communism, but were intent on killing every last one. Many locals in
Eastern Europe quickly realized that they did not stand much higher
than Jews in the Nazi racial heirarchy, and that what the Nazis were
really practicing was the initial phase of the ethnic cleansing of
their projected "Lebensraum".

At this time, the summer of 1941, two different currents enter the
picture:
1) the idea to use gas chambers, as had already been successfully used
within the T4 program;
2) the idea to give up the economically wasteful idea of killing
everybody, for killing only those who could not contribute to the war
effort.

As to 1) it is important to understand that the administration,
personnel, and know-how of the T4 program was handed over completely to
Aktion Reinhard death camps, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. They were
all planned, budgeted, and administered from the same bureaucracy that
ran the T4 euthanasia program. The death camps were thus a modification
of methodologies and practices that had already been successfully used
to systematically kill more than 100,000 Germans. The planning for the
death camps must have begun no later than the latter half of 1941,
since the first one, the pilot death camp at Chelmno, opened for
business as early as December 8, 1941 when mass shootings were still
taking place. The others, using more efficient means of killing,
were opened during the first half of 1942. Correspondingly, public mass
killings organized by the Einsatzkommandos began to become a rarity
after the first months of 1942.

As to 2) as early as the summer of 1941 there were conflicts between
those such as Hinrich Lohse, the civilian governer of Ostland, who
wanted to exploit the Jews for slave labor, and dedicated
exterminationists, such as Walter Stahlecker, head of Einsatzgruppe A,
who wanted to kill every Jew he could get his hands on as quickly as
possible (cf. e.g. Stahlecker's answer to Lohse's Guidelines on
Treatment of Jews in the Ostland, of August 6, 1941, in A. Ezergailis's
_ the Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 - 1944_ Riga 1996, pg. 378 ff.). This
was at a time when the Germans still thought that the war against the
USSR would be over in a few weeks. 

As it became clear that the USSR was not going to be a pushover, plans
had to be reassessed. We see as we go into 1942, an economically more
rational approach evolving. Jews were, for the most part, an urban
population and they were often better educated or had better
professional skills than the population at large. 

Here are some comments, taken from David Irving's website, where it is
called " A genuine eye-witness account of shootings of Jews on the
Eastern Front", highlighting the conflict between economic
considerations, which favor exploiting Jewish labor for the war effort,
and ideological aspects, which favor killing all Jews as quickly as
possible, taken from a conversation between German POWs secretly
recorded by British Military Intelligence on April 8, 1945. The only
identifiable speaker is Major General Walter Bruns.

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/documents/BrunsCSDICb.html#Bruns



BRUNS: As soon as I heard those Jews were to be shot on Friday I went
to a 21-year old boy and said that they had made themselves very useful
in the area under my command, besides which the Army MT park had
employed 1500 and the 'Heeresgruppe' 800 women to make underclothes of
the stores we captured in RIGA; besides which about 1200 women in the
neighbourhood of RIGA were turning millions of captured sheepskins into
articles we urgently required: ear-protectors, fur caps, fur
waistcoats, etc. Nothing had been provided, as of course the Russian
campaign was known to have come to a victorious end in October 1941! In
short, all those women were employed in a useful capacity. I tried to
save them. I told that fellow ALTENMEYER(?) whose name I shall always
remember and who will be added to the list of war criminals: "Listen to
me, they represent valuable man-power!" 'Do you call Jews valuable
human beings, sir?" I said: "Listen to me properly, I said valuable
man-power'. I didn't mention their value as human beings." He said:
"Well, they're to be shot in accordance with the FÜHRER's orders! I
said: "FÜHRER's orders?" "Yes", whereupon he showed me his orders. This
happened at SKIOTAWA(?), 8 km. from RIGA, between SIAULAI and JELGAVA,
where 5000 BERLIN Jews were suddenly taken off the train and shot.




Briefly put, economically useful Jews were made slave workers,
economically useless Jews were killed, often by gassing but also by
hangings, arbitrary shootings, pseudo-scientific experiments,
brutality, and other ill treatment. Since the Germans were going through
Europe country by country searching for, picking up, and deporting Jews
to slave labor camps and killing centers, there was always a fresh
supply of Jews. This means that they had little interest in preserving
the health and well being of the Jews initially selected as slave
laborers. Working them to death was part of the extermination process.
When they were no longer worth their keep, they were also selected for
extermination. Jews were still being rounded up and transported to
Auschwitz as late as early January 1945, and other camps were still
functioning and receiving Jews as late as the first days of May, 1945.
And when the war was over, only about 50% of Europe's Jews had been
killed, so a lot of the job of ridding Europe of Jews remained to be
done.

> 
> (3) Then in 1944 Mr. Reichsfuhrer orders the gassings stopped.

Correct. He ordered the gassings stopped and as much evidence as
possible of exterminations to be destroyed. At this time, November
1944, Germany had no hope of winning the war but, in its own view,
there was a slight chance of concluding a separate peace with the
Western Allies and continuing, with them, the war against international
communism and the USSR. This obviously meant taking a different policy
towards Jews and destroying any evidence of extermination. In an empire
of 10,000 concentration camps and with millions of Jews already killed,
this was obviously an impossible objective. On their own, Himmler and
Eichmann were wheeling and dealing, trying to trade Jews for trucks,
fuel, or, in the very end, safe passage for leading Nazis. Jews became
more valuable alive than dead.

> 
> (4) So they begin evacuating them westward until along comes Mr.
> Kaltenbrunner with his order:
> "Zap the Kikes."
> I must say, it's  all very bewildering.

No it's not. Evacuating the Jews that could be evacuated was the only
real option available. Otherwise the already chaotic countryside would
have been overrun with hundreds of thousands of hungry and
revenge-seeking Jews. Allied airplanes and snipers were not likely to
shoot at what was obviously a line of concentration camp prisoners with
guards among them. When it eventually became obvious that the war was
lost, that no deals could be made, that the Jews had no value as a
medium of exchange or as human shields, the order came to kill them,
just as orders were issued to dynamite bridges and buildings, and burn
records. It was part of the Götterdämmerung mentality which made Hitler
kill himself, his wife, and his dog. Why the Jews, you ask? Why the
dog?!


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Now I am going to say one final thing about the German hope to  form some
> sort of a marriage de
> convvience with the West.
> 
> --If we go on the assumption that there were no delberate exterminations, the idea is entirely
> believable.
> 
> --If we go on the assumption that there WERE deliberate mass exterminations, then the idea becomes
> ludicrous. The Germans could not possibly have beem THAT stupid.
> 
> ===================

What could be stupider than killing the dog? Perhaps attacking the USSR
at midsummer with no provisions for winter warfare.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:48 EDT 2001
Article: 907234 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!news-in-austin.nuthinbutnews.com!isdnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,uk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM AFTER IRVING v LIPSTADT: Hot off the presses
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:14:04 +0300
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In article , Paris
 wrote:

> philnancy@aol.com (Philip Mathews) wrote in message
> news:<20010605190723.09778.00002663@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
> 
> > >> First of all, no historian outside of deniers claims all those
> > >> murdered in the Holocaust were gassed; many were murdered by militias
> > >> called "Einsatzgruppen" and many were worked to death while being
> > >> deliberately underfed.
> > >
> > >Deliberately underfeeding slaves?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> Don't you think that it's a little counter productive?

No. It was an intergal part of the extermination process. Slaves were
trapped in the no-win situation of having to work in order to help the
German war machine capture more territory and enslave more people, or
slacking and being exterminated as a useless mouth to feed.

Source:
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/auschwitz/html/Ernaehrung.html


NUTRITION
   
Menues were developed officially, which included all necessary
processed foodstuff, how the meals should be prepared, how many
calories they had. But this food was never distributed to the
prisoners. 

A heavy worker for example got 1.700 calories or less, instead of those
2.150 calories intended. Three dishes a day were intended:
   

The food 
In the
morning:
   
*  1/2 liter of unsweeted coffee substitute or tea


At noon:
   
*  3/4 liter tasteless soup from potatoes or potatoe peelings, rutabaga
and other ingredients. (350 to 400 calories, that corresponds with 100
g ham-sausage).


In the
evening:
   
*  About 300 g bread with either 25 g sausage or 35 g margarine, one
spoon of jam or cheese. 



*  The bread was also meant as part of the next breakfast. 


*  The calories of a dinner amounted between 900 and 1000 calories.
Heavyworkers sometimes got a "Schwerarbeiterzulage" (heavy worker's
bonus) The food often was old or spoilt.
   

After a few weeks, the prisoners reached a condition of total
exhaustion because of the hunger rations and the neverending food
distribution. Only a single prominent inmate was in charge of the
handing out of the portions, he had to take care of hundreds of
prisoners. The last, weakest people did receive nothing to eat anymore.
On the other side were all these inmates who arranged themselves with
the prominent inmates or SS-guards and were thus given preferential
treatment. Shortenings or withdrawals of food were a further method of
punishment.

The average life expectation of a "normal" prisoner was very low
because of the hunger connected to the hard work. 



> Don't you think if all the slaves were obviously on the point of death
> that more German civilians would have been aware of the attrocity?

Very little of this was happening in Germany, and what was, was taking
place in institutions not accessible to the public under conditions of
sworn secrecy.
  
> > >Where is the pie chart of death by Nazi attocity then?

Source:
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/auschwitz/html/Entwicklung.html
  
THE DEVELOPMENT OF
DESTRUCTION METHODS

In the first years of Auschwitz' existence, the main strategy of
destruction was hunger and work. The average life expectation was
between six and nine months only because of hard labour assignments and
unsufficient nutrition. In order to maintain discipline and to
terrorize the prisoners, singular inmates were killed everyday. The
high costs for munition, the noise which was heard all over, the
psychic stress of SS-guards made the SS decide to use poison which was
injected to prisoners [or] gas.

In August and September 1941, commander Rudolf Höß ordered first test
to kill people with gas in Auschwitz I, the main camp. In the first
half of 1942, two evacuated farmhouses in Birkenau were put in
operation as gas chambers. These installations killed between 800 and
1200 people per day.

Until September 1942, the gassed people were buried in mass graves or
burnt in the open air.

In addition, medical experiments aimed at mass-sterilisations,
twin-research or testing of medicaments on inmates. 



> > Go find it yourself, it will be good for you.
> 
> There isn't one, that was my point.
> Nobody knows how many people were killed because there is no evidence.

Nonsense.

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ukraine/serniki-excavations

As Franciszek Piper notes in his article in Gutman and
Berebaum's _Auschwitz: Anatomy of a Death Camp, p. 179n.:

   In 1965 the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum commisioned Hydrokop,
   a chemical mining company, to carry out geological tests to find
   the location of the incineration pits and pyres. Hydrokop bored 303
   holes up to 3 metere deep at Auschwitz II-Birkenau  and found
   traces of human ashes, bones, and hair at 42 sites. Documentation
   and diagrams of all the holes and their distribution are at the
   Conservation Department of the [Auschwitz State] Museum.

The mass graves are where they are supposed to be: in various
locations from the northwest corner of the camp to Kremas IV and V and
behind the gas chambers known as the Bunkers. As Mark Van Alstine
previously posted, "One can see, on page 5 of the  _Auschwitz
Chronicle_, the locations of the mass grave and incineration pits,
which are clearly marked."



> When challenged about the inconsistency of the gassing theory, it emmerges
> that most were killed by militia. When challenged as to where are the
> graves of those killed by the militia we have silence.

Nonsense.

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ukraine/serniki-excavations

A lecture by professor Richard Wright, an Australian professor of
archaeology.


In this evening's talk I shall introduce you to archaeological
investigations of mass killings in Ukraine. The people were murdered
in 1942 and we excavated the graves 50 years later. Our work was done
to support three prosecutions made in Adelaide under the War Crimes
Legislation. I am an archaeologist. Why was an archaeologist needed at
all?

Well, the Special Investigations Unit of the Attorney-General's
Department was determined to forestall two styles of defence
customarily offered in such cases - that the wrong person has been
charged (mistaken identification), and that the events alleged are
imagined or (if not wholly imagined) so polluted in people's memories
by the lapse of time, and by self-reinforcing narration, as to be
worthlessly distorted evidence. Being an archaeologist, I had nothing
to do with the first strategy - identification of the alleged
perpetrators; but I had much to do with investigating material
evidence for the alleged events.

So, I shall talk to you this evening about how we found the graves,
how we worked out details of the killings, and how we dated events
both by old fashion stratigraphic methods and modern chronometric
techniques.

The events we investigated are shocking and I must warn you that some
of the pictures I am going to show you of the events are themselves
shocking. Those of you in this evening' audience who have perhaps only
thought of the war crimes prosecutions as a political issue, may well
be disturbed by the sight of the events uncovered. I hope these
introductory remarks can also serve as an apology for concentrating on
particulars, and not presuming to give a summary of the holocaust in
Ukraine. My profession is that of archaeologist, not historian. In
Ukraine I did archaeology. Other people (for example, Professor Konrad
Kwiet, Deputy Director of the Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies,
Macquarie University) did the history.

I have one final introductory remark. The events of the holocaust have
never impinged on me personally except for one childhood event which
has become more symbolically important for me since we did our work in
Ukraine. Let me take you through this briefly. 

Just before the Second World War, my father (who was a clergyman in
the evangelical wing of the Anglican church in England) befriended an
Austrian neurologist and his family. The family of Jews had been
thrown out of Austria after the Nazis took over. I suspect that what
was to become a close friendship, gave my father a profoundly new, and
more secular, view of the world. He had taken as a friend, a person
who had not only a foreign nationality, but also a foreign profession
and (what would have been to my father) a foreign religion.

I used to play with Hans, the son of the neurologist. One day we were
playing a game of soldiers in the garden. Hans suddenly broke off the
game and told me how his family was herded to the Vienna railway
station. He was having trouble keeping up with the column. Just before
it reached the station, an old man picked Hans up in his arms. A
soldier shouted and then used his rifle butt to club the head of the
old man who was carrying Hans. He fell to the ground as the old man's
arms opened.

I never found myself dwelling on this story told to me in my
childhood. Indeed I had virtually forgotten it - until we found
ourselves excavating in the grave at Serniki.

Let's talk about Serniki first. Our party consisted of myself as
archaeologist. In charge of the forensic side (for assessing age, sex,
manner of death - that sort of thing) we had Dr Godfrey Oettle who was
then head of the division of forensic medicine in Glebe. Responsible
for collecting details in a form acceptable for a court of law was
Detective Sergeant David Hughes of the NSW police. David had recently
been a member of the taskforce that solved the so-called granny
murders in Sydney. My wife Sonia, who is an experienced field
archaeologist, came as my assistant. She is presently writing up her
experiences at Serniki, using facilities at the Centre for Comparative
Genocide Studies at Macquarie University.

Now even with glasnost (well underway in 1990) you could not just turn
up in Moscow and announce you were going to do amass exhumation in
Ukraine. No, our efforts had been arranged with officials within the
Soviet government. The Soviet officials had already experienced the
professionalism of the Sydney based Special Investigations Unit,
because (apart from what we were to do) the Australian team had
virtually wound up its investigations at the village of Serniki. When
we turned up, we inherited much of the goodwill that the SIU had built
up with both the Soviet and Ukrainian authorities. Responsibility for
ensuring we had what we wanted was given to the procurator for the
whole western half of the Soviet Union, Madam Kalashnikova - a person
who we found at times lived up to the Western metaphor of a
Kalashnikov, but who could at other times be immensely helpful.

Serniki is on the southern margins of the Pripet marshes, which Hitler
in his table talk said he would, after the war, retain as an area for
Wehrmacht manoeuvres. The area we were working in was well within
German lines in this area of Ukraine. When we turned up it was high
summer and a fantastic growing time of the year in fields and gardens.
The locals were not used to tourists and we were stared at a lot.
The area of the grave is now in an ominous-looking dark pine forest,
but feelings of that sort are illusory. At the time of the killings
this was open country. At the site in the forest, the Soviet
authorities has set us up with a telephone, tents, electricity,
bulldozers, and a contingent of Red Army soldiers. Only the telephone
didn't work.The local officials wanted to find bodies as soon as
possible, and did so at what turned out to be the end of the grave.
However my interest, as an archaeologist, was first to remove the soil
feature that might be interpreted as a grave and only then look for
bodies. In this way damage to contextual evidence would be minimised.

We were fortunate in finding a marked contrast in colour and texture
between the natural soil and the filling of the grave. This contrast
came right to the base of the existing humic zone at the surface, so
we were able to delimit one whole half of the grave before disturbing
anything. To do our work, we divided the grave into two halves. The
Australian team took charge of the end located by archaeological
methods, and the Soviets took the other.

Our first job, having delimited the boundaries of the grave as some 40
metres long and 5 metres wide, was to bulldoze down two metres to
within 20 centimetres of the bodies. Then, together with the soldiers,
we used shovels to remove the sand until the tops of the bodies were
exposed.
 
We then used paint brushes to do the final exposure. At the end of
five weeks of gruesome work, our count of skulls indicated about 550
bodies in the grave. There may have been a few more skulls where
bodies lay more than two deep, but the torsos had too much surviving
soft tissue to make feasible the task of any further exposure.

An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they were
mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been herded
down a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been shot
while lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right.
The majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls.
Some of them had been clubbed.

At the end the Soviets were working on, the bodies lay face down,
parallel and in rows. At our end the bodies were much more
disorganised. There seemed to have been panic at our end.
 
In a generally empty area at the middle of the grave we found bodies
that had fewer bullets to the head. Some had been clubbed.
 
These people had surviving bits of clothing, whereas the main mass of
people at each end had been stripped before being shot. We found items
of clothing right through the filling of the grave, suggesting that
people had picked through a pile of clothing, throwing in what was
unwanted while the grave was being filled in. One boot contained a
pocket watch secreted in the heel.

We felt a grim satisfaction in revealing that the massive grave was
much too large for the number of people in it. The Nazis had obviously
hoped for many more victims.

One of my duties was to concentrate on dating the event. After
cleaning up some of the corroded machine pistol cartridge cases, and
examining them with a lens, my colleagues found that the killers had
used German ammunition stamped with the place and date of manufacture.
The cases dated from the years of 1939, 1940 and 1941. These cases
were like coins found in conventional excavations. We thereby had a
date of 1941, later than which the killings must have taken place.

It proved more of a problem to get a date earlier than which the
killings took place. The fir trees grew in parallel rows and were
clearly a plantation. Some fir trees grew in the filling of the grave.
We examined the growth rings of the trees. The greatest number of
rings we could find was 29, indicating that the killing had taken
place before 1961.

We were able to narrow dating down significantly once we got back to
Sydney. Radiocarbon dating of hair showed that the individuals showed
no trace of the so-called hydrogen bomb effect in their proportion of
carbon isotopes, so the killing took place before hydrogen bombs
started to be let off in 1952.

Now we turn to the work in Ustinovska, a year later in 1991. Here we
had Sergeant Steve Horne in place of David Hughes. Dr Chris Griffiths,
a specialist in forensic dentistry at Westmead Hospital, joined
Godfrey Oettle on the forensic side. He was needed because of a
particularly awful allegation about the killings there. It was alleged
that after a hundred or so adults had been marched two kilometres to a
grave and shot, a fellow had asked where the children were. "We didn't
think you wanted to shoot the children", the organisers of the
round-up had said.  At that, some fellows returned to the village,
commandeered a cart, and drove the children back to the grave. They
then, so the allegations went, threw the children off the cart and
into the grave, and shot them. I was told that the SIU investigators
had interviewed the mother of three of those children (the father was
a Jew, she wasn't). She said she had returned home from the fields for
lunch one day. Her children were not in the house. She asked her
neighbors whether they had seen the children. The neighbors told her
they had been taken away to be shot.

Dr. Griffith's services were required because of the need to work out
the ages of the children, if indeed we found them, from the stages of
eruption of the milk teeth and permanent teeth.

Ustinovka is 500 ESE of Serniki, in the fertile black soil loess belt.
Unlike at Serniki, the locals had only a vague idea of where the grave
might be.  There was no sign on the surface.

Standing in a vast paddock of 10cm tall peas and maize, I felt
helpless. How were we to start looking? Where were we to start
looking?  The rest of the team looked confident, expecting Sonia and
myself to perform some sort of archaeological divination.

I remembered back to my textbooks. Young crops like disturbed ground,
trenches showing up from the air as greener features. This gave us an
idea. Back in town we had seen an ancient biplane on an airstrip. We
asked if we could use it.

Permission to use the biplane was readily granted, but - NO PHOTOS. As
it turned out photos would have been impossible out of the scratched
perspex windows of this crop-dusting biplane, stinking of chemicals.
Even looking for cropmarks was impossible. So we asked for a better
plane.

Next morning we returned to the site. In the middle of the peas and
maize stood a Soviet army helicopter, rocket pods protruding. What
about photos? The crew seemed annoyed with the question. There were no
problems with photos from the helicopter, of the helicopter, of the
crew (in particular there was no problem with colour Polaroids of the
crew).

The flight was to no avail. Nothing showed up. So we had to use
mundane methods.

We put a shallow trench with backhoe across a likely area, examining
the scraped walls for lateral discontinuities in colour and texture.
In this way we found the sides of a deep cutting, which turned out to
be the grave. At Ustinovka, unlike at Serniki, we succeeded in
defining the whole area of the grave before we disturbed any of its
contents. When you are looking for a buried body your archaeological
objective should be first to find the grave and only then bother with
the body. This is a fundamental principle of conserving evidence that
Australian police should pay more attention to. Archaeologists too
rarely get called in to assist police in their investigations.

Remembering the story that children had been killed after the adults,
our stratigraphic evidence provided stunning support for this story.
We came down on the children's skeletons first, and then what seemed
to be the bottom of the grave. But 20 centimetres below the children
lay the adults. The witnesses did not actually mention that the grave
had been partly filled after the adults were killed, but obviously our
strategraphic observations provide important material evidence for
their statement that children were killed later.

Their were about 20 children. The youngest one was about six months
and virtually destroyed in the soil except for teeth. The oldest one
was about 12 or 13 years old.

Thus we were able to get evidence that would have been missed without
paying attention to scientific methods of excavation. At Ustinovka,
maybe even the grave itself would have been missed.

I want to finish this evening by looking more widely than at Ukraine.
As you might expect, I am not alone in thinking that archaeological
methodology has a role in the investigation of killings. The
University of Bradford has a postgraduate diploma that majors in
forensic archaeology. I hope to visit John Hunter there when I go over
to the United Kingdom later this year.

Closer in topic to what we have spoken about tonight (mass killings)
is the Argentine Forensic Anthropology Team. They got themselves
together in the mid-1980s, when it became politically possible to
investigate the fate of the so-called "Disappeared" of the 1970s.
Horrified at the shambles the police were making of exhumations, they
formed themselves into a group of archaeologists and forensic
anthropologists. They impressed on the authorities that their methods
would allow better opportunities for identifying specific individuals,
by proving the association between artifacts and particular skeletons.
It wasn't enough to merely dig up the skeletons and take them to a
morgue for identification. This dedicated team has lent its services
to authorities elsewhere in South America and elsewhere in the world.

The Boston based Physicians for Human Rights has been approached by
the United Nations to assist with prosecutions relating to atrocities
in both the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. As their title indicates,
they are primarily a forensic team of volunteers. But they routinely
incorporate the services of archaeologists. I am privileged to have
last month been invited to join their group of experts, though I can't
say it is an invitation that I accepted with relish.
 
The primary archaeological interests of my career have been twofold -
environmental changes at the end of the Ice Age and models for
computer aided multivariate analysis of archaeological data. These
remain my two chief archaeological interests. But as you can see, the
invitation to work in Ukraine dragged me away from those worthwhile,
but relatively arcane pursuits, to a nasty awakening in the
archaeology of the 20th Century. Nasty it may have been, but I have
not regretted it. Even though no Australian has been found guilty by
the courts of the atrocities investigated, we have brought forward new
material evidence of three particular episodes in the holocaust that
no persons, even those labouring on behalf of Holocaust denial, have
sought to contradict. material evidence is harder to contradict than
memories.

Courtesy of the HOLOCAUST listserv


> When asked how we know how many died we have a range of anwers from, people
> in germany before - after - soldiers dead.
> 
> It's a disgrace.

Nonsense again. The Holocaust took place in more than a dozen
countries, and Germany, where 50% of the local Jews survived the war,
was hardly the country worst affected.

The accuracy of statistics varies from country to country, but some
countries, such as Hungary and Norway, kept very accurate statistics of
their populations, while in other countries, such as Poland and
Lithuania, war and disorder make it necessary to use various kinds of
information to make informed extimates.

Source: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm

Statistics of The Holocaust


Country      Initial Jewish Pop. Est. % Killed  Est. Killed   Survivors
POLAND               3,300,000   91%            3,000,000       300,000
USSR                 3,020,000   36%            1,100,000     1,920,000
HUNGARY                800,000   74%              596,000       204,000
GERMANY                566,000   36%              200,000       366,000
FRANCE                 350,000   22%               77,320       272,680
ROMANIA                342,000   84%              287,000        55,000
AUSTRIA                185,000   35%               65,000       120,000
LITHUANIA              168,000   85%              143,000        25,000
NETHERLANDS            140,000   71%              100,000        40,000
BOHEMIA & MORAVIA      118,310   60%               71,150        47,160
LATVIA                  95,000   84%               80,000        15,000
SLOVAKIA                88,950   80%               71,000        17,950
YUGOSLAVIA              78,000   81%               63,300        14,700
GREECE                  77,380   87%               67,000        10,380
BELGIUM                 65,700   45%               28,900        36,800
ITALY                   44,500   17%                7,680        36,820
BULGARIA                50,000    0%                    0        50,000
DENMARK                  7,800    0.8%                 60         7,740
ESTONIA                  4,500   44%                2,000         2,500
LUXEMBOURG               3,500   55%                1,950         1,550
FINLAND                  2,000    0.03%                 7         1,993
NORWAY                   1,700   45%                  762           938

TOTAL                9,508,340   63%            5,962,129     3,546,211


Since I'm writing from Finland, I'd like to add some interesting
information on the rather curious figure 7.

Finland joined in a limited alliance with Germany in its 1941 attack on
the USSR to try and regain the territory it had lost to the USSR when
attacked in 1939. The German's exerted considerable diplomatic and
other pressure to expell its Jewish and hand them over for
extermination. Finland refused to do this, and eventually Finnish Jews
wound up fighting alongside the Germans against the Soviets. Since many
of them spoke German due to their knowledge of Yiddish, they were
highly valued by the Germans in a country where few people spoke any
other lanuages than Finnish or Swedish. A few Finnish Jews were
actually awarded, but refused to accept, the German Iron Cross.

Although Finland refused to expell any of its Jewish citizens, eight
Central European Jews, including two children, who were among the
hundreds of foreign Jews who had sought refuge in Finland, were handed
over to the Germans due to a bureaucratic foul-up and sent first to
Nazi-occupied Estonia, and from there to Auschwitz, where all but one
of them died or were killed. See Rautkallio, H. _Finland and the
Holocaust. The Rescue of Finland's Jews_. New York: Holocaust Library.
1987, for details.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:49 EDT 2001
Article: 907267 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
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In article <3B1E3217.7F8969A7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:



> >
> > What could be stupider than killing the dog? Perhaps attacking the USSR
> > at midsummer with no provisions for winter warfare.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Hitler was not stupid but he was a man who didn't have his feet firmly
> planted on the ground.

Hitler had the soul of an artist and a dreamer, not of a soldier or a
thinker.

In retrospect I think we can safely say that Hitler _was_ stupid. Not
stupid in a stupid way, but rather stupid in an arrogant and unthinking
way. With neither the training nor the inclination for strategic
thinking, he insisted on having the ultimate say in determining the
manner in which the campaign against the USSR was to be waged. Four
points will suffice to demonstrate the depths of Hitler's special
strain of stupidity.

1) Stupid planning. The attack on the USSR began on June 22, 1941. That
is midsummer in this part of the world, and the first night-frosts come
in mid August. September and particularly October are extremely rainy,
while spending time outdoors in November without the proper clothing
poses a severe risk to health and life. 

2) Stupid intelligence.  The planning for the attack did not take the
poor condition of the Soviet infrastructure and other realities of
Russian culture into consideration. When the autumn rains started in
September, the German forces were battling mud as much as they were the
Soviet army. When they sought shelter in the private homes they had
captured, they were ignorant of and had extreme difficulty adjusting to
the fact that rural Russians don't sleep in beds, but rather on top of
the oven. They thus slept in extreme discomfort, and coldly, on floors
and tables, thus reducing their battle-readiness.

3) Stupid mphasis on form rather than content. Hitler overrode his
general's decision to go for the jugular and put everything they had
into capturing Moscow as soon as possible, insisting instead that the
Soviets be dealt an insult on top of the injury already sustained by
splitting his resources and going for the militarily less important
objectives of the two cities named after Soviet heroes, Leningrad and
Stalingrad, _in addition to_ trying to take Moscow. The only objective
of the three that they reached was the least important one, Stalingrad,
and what happened to them once they got there is history. If they had
put everything they had into taking Moscow, as the generals with years
of strategic training had recommended, they just might have been able
to knock the Soviets out before the autumn rains and the snow.

4) Stupid ideological blindness. Hitler, once again overriding his
generals, insisted that the army be sent into Russia without winter
clothing and untrained for winter battle. As I, or rather POW Major
General Walter Bruns, noted in my previous posting, this colossal
mistake was compounded by the systematic policy of shooting the skilled
Jewish slave laborers who had been manufacturing the winter gear that
it was obvious would be necessary by late 1941.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Attacking
> Russia now seems folly in retrospect; it did not seem so at the time.
> Consider:
> 
> (1) The German Army DID bring  Russia to her knees in 1918.
> (2) The German   Army had known nothing but successes from 1939 to 1941.
> (3)  By contrast the Russian  Army had performed miserably in Finland and its
> higher command levels had
> been eviscerated by the purges of the 1930s.
> (4) Many think the Germans should have invaded earlier than July so as to get in the most campaigning
> before winter. I   suspect they had so planned but their schedule was thrown off because Mussolini got
> himself into a muddle in the Balkans and Hitler  felt it necessary to bail him out.
> (5) German intelligence on Russia was miserable. They just had not grasped that the Russia of Stalin was
> a very different propositoin from the Russia of Nick   #2.
> 
> ==================================

Point 1) is hardly relevant. 

Point 2) is certainly true, but they had been attacking countries far
smaller and less militaristic than they were. Being able to invade
Luxembourg, Denmark, or even Poland does not mean that you can take on
a country many times the size of your own - and still have to devote
resources to keeping Denmark, Luxembourg, Poland, and the others
occupied.

Point 3) is certainly true, but not only Hitler, but also Stalin noted
this. The Soviets made the same mistake with Finland in 1939 that the
Germans made with the Soviets in 1941. They thought Finland would be a
pushover, and they sent in third class troops, often from southern
climates like Ukraine, who were not expecting serious resistance and
were both untrained and unequipped for winter warfare. Soviet operative
Otto Kuusinen had proclaimed a communist republic in conjunction with
the invasion, and some of the Soviets appear to have seriously believed
that a civil war would break out in Finland which would facilitate
their advance to Helsinki. Hitler drew the necessary conclusions foirm
their miserable performance, but so did Stalin. The ragtag Soviet army
of 1939 that invaded Finland was not the crack Soviet army that
defended Mother Russia against Nazi invaders in 1941. Another, less
obvious conclusion, was that even when opposing a better equipped,
better trained army, the USSR could always afford to play for time and
wait until their opponent ran out of soldiers.

Point 4) might have some truth to it. Nevertheless, the date June 22,
1941 for the attack on the USSR was fixed several months in advance,
probably more than half a year in advance. It was postponed intil June
22 at the last moment.

Point 5) is certainly true. 

And you left out point 6): If the Germans had, initially at least,
pursued a divide and conquer policy and tried to channel the strength
of Ukrainian nationalism to serve their own objectives, they would have
had a far easier military situation to deal with. Even though there
were many Ukrainian collaborators, for the most part the Germans
considered the Rusisans and Ukrainians to be Untermenschen of the same
rank and treated both peoples accordingly.


Still, what could be stupider than killing the dog?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:49 EDT 2001
Article: 907274 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ariana E. Cha, "Asian Americans Fight Slurs Via E-Mail Mercury News
Supersedes: <060620011925214932%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B1E3217.7F8969A7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:



> >
> > What could be stupider than killing the dog? Perhaps attacking the USSR
> > at midsummer with no provisions for winter warfare.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Hitler was not stupid but he was a man who didn't have his feet firmly
> planted on the ground.

Hitler had the soul of an artist and a dreamer, not of a soldier or a
thinker.

In retrospect I think we can safely say that Hitler _was_ stupid. Not
stupid in a stupid way, but rather stupid in an arrogant and unthinking
way. With neither the training nor the inclination for strategic
thinking, he insisted on having the ultimate say in determining the
manner in which the campaign against the USSR was to be waged. Four
points will suffice to demonstrate the depths of Hitler's special
strain of stupidity.

1) Stupid planning. The attack on the USSR began on June 22, 1941. That
is midsummer in this part of the world, and the first night-frosts come
in mid August. September and particularly October are extremely rainy,
while spending time outdoors in November without the proper clothing
poses a severe risk to health and life. 

2) Stupid intelligence.  The planning for the attack did not take the
poor condition of the Soviet infrastructure and other realities of
Russian culture into consideration. When the autumn rains started in
September, the German forces were battling mud as much as they were the
Soviet army. When they sought shelter in the private homes they had
captured, they were ignorant of and had extreme difficulty adjusting to
the fact that rural Russians don't sleep in beds, but rather on top of
the oven. They thus slept in extreme discomfort, and coldly, on floors
and tables, thus reducing their battle-readiness.

3) Stupid emphasis on form rather than content. Hitler overrode his
generals' decision to go for the jugular and put everything they had
into capturing Moscow as soon as possible, insisting instead that the
Soviets be dealt an insult on top of the injury already sustained by
splitting his resources and going for the militarily less important
objectives of the two cities named after Soviet heroes, Leningrad and
Stalingrad, _in addition to_ trying to take Moscow. The only objective
of the three that they reached was the least important one, Stalingrad,
and what happened to them once they got there is history. If they had
put everything they had into taking Moscow, as the generals with years
of strategic training had recommended, they just might have been able
to knock the Soviets out before the autumn rains and the snow.

4) Stupid ideological blindness. Hitler, once again overriding his
generals, insisted that the army be sent into Russia without winter
clothing and untrained for winter battle. As I, or rather POW Major
General Walter Bruns, noted in my previous posting, this colossal
mistake was compounded by the systematic policy of shooting the skilled
Jewish slave laborers who had been manufacturing the winter gear that
it was obvious would be necessary by late 1941.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Attacking
> Russia now seems folly in retrospect; it did not seem so at the time.
> Consider:
> 
> (1) The German Army DID bring  Russia to her knees in 1918.
> (2) The German   Army had known nothing but successes from 1939 to 1941.
> (3)  By contrast the Russian  Army had performed miserably in Finland and its
> higher command levels had
> been eviscerated by the purges of the 1930s.
> (4) Many think the Germans should have invaded earlier than July so as to get in the most campaigning
> before winter. I   suspect they had so planned but their schedule was thrown off because Mussolini got
> himself into a muddle in the Balkans and Hitler  felt it necessary to bail him out.
> (5) German intelligence on Russia was miserable. They just had not grasped that the Russia of Stalin was
> a very different propositoin from the Russia of Nick   #2.
> 
> ==================================

Point 1) is hardly relevant. 

Point 2) is certainly true, but they had been attacking countries far
smaller and less militaristic than they were. Being able to invade
Luxembourg, Denmark, or even Poland does not mean that you can take on
a country many times the size of your own - and still have to devote
resources to keeping Denmark, Luxembourg, Poland, and the others
occupied.

Point 3) is certainly true, but not only Hitler, but also Stalin noted
this. The Soviets made the same mistake with Finland in 1939 that the
Germans made with the Soviets in 1941. They thought Finland would be a
pushover, and they sent in third class troops, often from southern
climates like Ukraine, who were not expecting serious resistance and
were both untrained and unequipped for winter warfare. Soviet operative
Otto Kuusinen had proclaimed a communist republic in conjunction with
the invasion, and some of the Soviets appear to have seriously believed
that a civil war would break out in Finland which would facilitate
their advance to Helsinki. Hitler drew the necessary conclusions from
their miserable performance, but so did Stalin. The ragtag Soviet army
of 1939 that invaded Finland was not the crack Soviet army that
defended Mother Russia against Nazi invaders in 1941. Another, less
obvious conclusion, was that even when opposing a better equipped,
better trained army, the USSR could always afford to play for time and
wait until their opponent ran out of soldiers.

Point 4) might have some truth to it. Nevertheless, the date June 22,
1941 for the attack on the USSR was fixed several months in advance,
probably more than half a year in advance. There is no evidence
suggesting that it was postponed until June 22 anytime near the last
moment.

Point 5) is certainly true. 

And you left out point 6): If the Germans had, initially at least,
pursued a divide and conquer policy and tried to channel the strength
of Ukrainian nationalism to serve their own objectives, they would have
had a far easier military situation to deal with. Even though there
were many Ukrainian collaborators, for the most part the Germans
considered the Rusisans and Ukrainians to be Untermenschen of the same
rank and treated both peoples accordingly.


Still, what could be stupider than killing the dog?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:49 EDT 2001
Article: 907314 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:36:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <060620012136016447%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b1e08e0.1894605@news.supernews.com> <9fl33c$aaf$1@panix6.panix.com> <36fd8c48.0106061015.3c12106b@posting.google.com>
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In article <36fd8c48.0106061015.3c12106b@posting.google.com>,
Mimereader  wrote:

> gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n) wrote in message
> news:<9fl33c$aaf$1@panix6.panix.com>...
> > brojack@qis.net:
> > | Just as today's white Americans benefitted from whatever oppression
> > | drove their ancestors to America, today's black Americans benefitted
> > | from slavery.
> > | ...
> > 
> > But this is irrelevant.  The reparations issue is about work
> > performed and not paid for, not directly about who's better off,
> > although the latter is related to the former.
> 
> You would be right If White people today were going to put up with
> being further humiliated by paying for the racial ignorance of the
> greedy. A Capitalist elite of many races brought Blacks into our
> ethnic living space.

Nonsense. Blacks were brought to the new world because the whites did
not have the numbers or the physical stamina to do what it took to
wrest the living space form its earlier inhabitants and "owners". Being
that the blacks did much of the essential work, but were not paid for
it, we have a legitimate claim on co-ownership.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:50 EDT 2001
Article: 907678 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,uk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM AFTER IRVING v LIPSTADT: Hot off the presses
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:58:56 +0300
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In article <991868594.25137.0.nnrp-12.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:060620011814047703%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> 
> > http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/auschwitz/html/Ernaehrung.html
> > 
> 
> You have provided a source, but the article has not.
> Where is the bibliography and the reference to nazi documents outlining the
> menus etc

It was published under the name of the Department of History of the
University of Linz, Austria. They could be approached for further
information, but one expect some credibility from an institution of
this type.



> > Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ukraine/serniki-excavations
> 
> Article alludes to practice of exhuming and burning evidence for ritual
> humilition. This is plain demonisation, but it
> circumvents habius corpus quite neatly, but this document goes on to speak
> of the The Polish Hydrokop tests.
> Nobody denies that people were buried at Auschwitz-Birkenau, these people
> were mainly victims of the
> raging typhoid fever which swept the camp in the second half of 42.

Auschwitz continued to generate bodies up until its liberation in
January, 1945.

> In fact
> the reason that the tests were carried out in these
> places is because it was known where to drill the holes to find the remains
> of the typhus victims!
> 
> Then we move graves in the ukraine... See below.
> 
> 
> 
> > > When challenged about the inconsistency of the gassing theory, it
> emmerges
> > > that most were killed by militia. When challenged as to where are the
> > > graves of those killed by the militia we have silence.
> >
> > Nonsense.
> >
> > Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ukraine/serniki-excavations
> 
> I'm sorry, I genuinely couldn't get that page up..
> But I'm aware of the content..
> 
> 
> 
> Famously unscientific excavation, no records kept, now documentation.
> No mention of Jews. Possibly attributed to Soviets, not Nazis.

Videos and photographs were made of the exhumation. And the grave, in
which German, not Soviet, ammunition was found is a Jeckeln-method
grave. The Soviets did not use the Jeckeln method. You also neglect
that what was found in the grave correlates with eyewitness reports.

Let's consider the Jeckeln method.

When planning the massacre of the Jews at Riga in November 1941,
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln drove around the environs of the
city looking for a suitable site.

The water table around Riga is near the surface, and therefore an
elevated location had to be found. On the way to the Salspils camp,
which was being built at the time, he came upon the Rumbula pines
between the road and the railroad [Landgericht Hamburg: Urteil gegen
Jahnke, pp. 55 and 99]. This location met Jeckeln's criteria: the
distance from Riga, the proximity to the railroad (at first, railroad
transport was considered), the sandy soil for easy digging of pits, and
its situation above the water table. The drawback was that the site was
relatively exposed less than a hundred meters from a major highway.
  
In planning the massacre, Jeckeln adapted the system he had devised in
Ukraine [cf. the Serniki and Ustinovska graves] for the specific
conditions in Riga. The system involved detailed planning, subdividing
the assignment into manageable parts, and then selecting a specialist
in each area. As Jeckeln's aide Paul Degenhart testified, there were
nine aspects to the system: 

1) SD (=Sicherheitsdienst) men inside the ghetto drove the people out of
their houses; 

2) the Jews were organized in 500-person columns and brought by train to
the killing grounds (actually they were driven on foot in 1,000-person
columns); 

3) the Order Police led the column to Rumbula; 

4) the killing was done simultanously in three pits; 

5) the victims were undressed and their valuables collected on the way
to the pits; 

6) an inner and outer gauntlet were formed to drive the people to the
pit; 

7) the victims were to be driven directly into the pits, saving the
labor of moving the bodies; 

8) Russian submachine guns were used because the clip held fifty bullets
and the weapons could be set to fire single shots [Landsgericht Hamburg:
Jahnke's Trial Records, depositions of Paul Degenhart; Deposition of
Zingler, p. 6. Arajs Trial Records, p. 2133 a.], 

9) the victims lay face down in layers, after which the marksman would
kill them with a bullet in the back of the head [[Arajs Trial records,
Deposition of Degenhart in the Arajs files, Hamburg, pp. 11952-6;
Landgericht Hamburg; Indictment (1971) of Oberwinder, Jahnke, Tuchel,
Memicker; Neumann, and Draeger, p. 22).]. 

This method has been referred to as *Sardinenpackung* (sardine-packing),
and even some of the EG (= Einsatzgruppen) operatives were horrified by
its cruelty [(Otto) Ohlendorf, commander of Einsatzgruppe D, thought
that Jeckeln's was an unacceptable method, for it would brutalize the
killers, since this kind of operation did not allow for the slightest
deniability
(Nürnberg: Einsatzgruppen Case, p. 311)].

Here is an account of the method in SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln's own
words:


Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm
[The website of the Museum at the Salaspils Concentration Camp outside
Riga]



The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln [1]
  
  
The  shootings  were  carried out  under  the  direction  of Colonel 
Dr.  Lange,  Commander of the  SD  and  Gestapo  in Latvia.  Knecht was
in charge of security at the liquidation sites.[2]  I, Jeckeln, took
part in the shootings  on  three occasions;  the  same holds for
Lange,  Knecht,  Lohse,  and Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the
traffic police  in Riga. 

  
Q: Who did the shooting? 

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers. 

Q: What was the procedure? 

A:  All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga  to the 
liquidation site. Near the pits, they  had  to  deposit 
their  overclothes, which were washed, sorted,  and  shipped back  to 
Germany.  Jews - men, women,  and  children - passed  through police
cordons on their way to the pits, where  they were shot by German
soldiers. 

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in  Riga 
had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,  East  Prussia,  in 
December 1941,  I  reported  in  person, too.[3] Himmler was satisfied
with the results. He said that  more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive
in Latvia, and these| were to be liquidated by me also. 

Q: Go into more detail. 

A:  At  the  end  of  January  1942,[4]  I  was  at  Himmler's
headquarters   in   Loetzen,  East   Prussia,   to   discuss 
organizational  matters regarding the  Latvian  SS  legions. There 
Himmler  informed me that additional  Jewish  convoys 
were  due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries.The 
destination point would be the Salaspils  concentration 
camp,  which  lay one and a quarter miles from Riga  in  the direction 
of Duenaburg. Himmler said that he  had  not  yet  determined  how he
would have them exterminated: whether  to have  them  shot on board
their convoys or in Salaspils,  or  whether to chase them into the
swamp somewhere. 

Q: How was the matter resolved? 

A:  It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker
death. Himmler said he would think it over and  then give orders later
through Heydrich. 

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the 
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the Salaspils
camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews  from  this camp
were exterminated. But I would like to  make an additional statement
while we are on this topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in  the 
guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that  arrived  from
other countries. In the first half of February 1942  I  received a
letter from Heydrich. In this letter  he  wrote that Reich Marshal
Goering had gotten himself involved in the Jewish question, and that
Jews were now being shipped  to the East for annihilation only with
Goering's approval. 

Q:  This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils. 

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews  in
Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes  me  an accessory
to this crime. Beyond that, Jews were  shot in  the  Salaspils camp by
forces recruited from my  SD  and  Security  Police units. The
commander of the SD and  Gestapo in  Latvia,  Lieutenant Colonel Dr.
Lange, was  directly  in  charge of the shootings. Other officers who
reported  to  me on  the shootings of Jews in the camp were the
commander  of  the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States, Major General
Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police Fuchs. 

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you? 

A:  They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were  to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation. 

Q:  Then  the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought  to  be known too,
isn't that correct? 

A:  Yes,  of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The 
first  Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in  November 
1941.  Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys  arrived  at regular
intervals. I  believe  that  in November 1941, no more than three 
convoys arrived  in  all,  but during the next  seven  months,  from 
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys  arrived each
month. 

    Overall,  in  eight months, no less than fifty-five  and  no more 
than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the  camp.  Given that each
convoy carried a thousand men, that makes  a total of 55,000 to 87,000
Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp. 

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth? 

A:  I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however,
that before my arrival in  Riga,  a  significant number of Jews in the
Ostland  and  in White  Ruthenia  were exterminated. I was informed 
of  this fact.[5] 

Q: By whom, specifically? 

A:  Stahlecker;  Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General  Schroder, the SS and
Police Leader in Latvia;  Major  General Moeller the SS and Police
Leader in  Estonia; and  Major  General  Wysocki the SS  and  Police 
Leader in Lithuania. 

Q: Be specific. What did they report? 

A:  Schroeder reported to me that over and above those  Jews who  had 
been  exterminated  in  the  ghetto  in  Riga   an  additional  70,000 
to  100,000 Jews  were  exterminated  in Latvia.  Dr. Lange directly
oversaw these shootings. Moeller reported that in Estonia everything
was in order as  far  as the Jewish question was concerned. 

The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all about 
3,000  to  5,000 and this was  reduced  to  nil.  The greater  part 
were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki  reported that  100,000  to 
200,000  Jews  were  exterminated-shot-in Lithuania, on Stahlecker's
orders. In Lithuania, the  Jewish exterminations were overseen by the
commander of the SD  and  Gestapo,  Lieutenant Colonel of Police
Jaeger. Later  Jaeger told  me  that he had become neurotic as a
result  of  these shootings.  Jaeger was pensioned off and left his 
post  for treatment. All told, the number of Jews exterminated in  the 
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500
to 253,500.[6] 

Notes: 

1. Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator;  Sergeant Suur, interpreter), 
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga. 

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in Latvia. 

3. I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Loetzen. 

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

On  the  same  day  Himmler made the  following  handwritten entry, re:
his telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 
17  [i.e., 5:00 EM.] SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the
concentration camps" NS 19/neu 1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police
Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln,  personnel file,
Berlin Document Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the
SS Upper Section, "Ostland," occurred on 11 December 1941
(Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19 neu/2846]). 

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: 

"Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A:
Jews: 136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children:
34,464" 
(Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]). 




> > Since I'm writing from Finland, I'd like to add some interesting
> > information on the rather curious figure 7.
> 
> > Finland joined in a limited alliance with Germany in its 1941 attack on
> > the USSR to try and regain the territory it had lost to the USSR when
> > attacked in 1939. The German's exerted considerable diplomatic and
> > other pressure to expell its Jewish and hand them over....
> 
> >for extermination.
> 
> Who's words?

Martin Sandberger, head of the Einsatzkommando 1a, had visited Finland
at the end of 1941. In his report on the operations of Einsatzgruppe A,
dated October 15, 1941, a short time after meeting with Arno Anthoni,
the Finnish official in charge of maintaining relationships between the
Gestapo and Valpo, the Finnish State Police, Brigadeführer Walter
Stahlecker stated "The Jewish Question will be settled by all available
means". (IMT, Bd. XXXVII, pp. 672). When Anthoni visited Estonia a few
weeks later he was taken to a gravesite of Jews shot in Tallinn by his
German hosts, and the issue of filling it with more Jews from Finland
was discussed [Supplentary Record of Inquiry 1, Sotavankileirien
tutkimuskeskus [= Research Centre for Prisoner of War Camps]. 1388.II,
pp 1-4. Military Archives, quoted in Rautkallio 1987, pg. 147.

SS-Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler made a trip to Finland in July 1942.
The problem of solving the Jewish Question was one of the issues
discussed with Finnish officials. Himmler had mentioned "Hitler's
planŠto have the Jews removed from Finland to Poland" [Finnish Minister
of the Interior Kivimäki's statement, Dce. 5, 1948]. The Finnish State
Police, Valpo, produced a report in conjunction with which it was
stated:

"The Reichsführer wished to discuss the question of the Jews in Finland
with Prime Minister Rangell. He considered it shameful that Finland was
at one tome forced to receive Jewish refugees from Austria. He promised
to arrange matters so that the said refugees could be transported back
to Germany."
Rautkallio, pg. 166.

According to Prime Minister Rangell:

"I concluded my statement with the words, Wir haben keine Judenfrage,"
and I said it with such clarity that the discussion of the matter ended
there. The Jewish question was not discussed with Himmler at any other
time."
J. W. Rangell's interveiew, Sept. 3, 1961, quoted in Rautkallio, pg.
168.

 
> > Finland refused to do this, and eventually Finnish Jews
> > wound up fighting alongside the Germans against the Soviets. Since many
> > of them spoke German due to their knowledge of Yiddish, they were
> > highly valued by the Germans in a country where few people spoke any
> > other lanuages than Finnish or Swedish. A few Finnish Jews were
> > actually awarded, but refused to accept, the German Iron Cross.
> 
> > Although Finland refused to expell any of its Jewish citizens, eight
> > Central European Jews, including two children, who were among the
> > hundreds of foreign Jews who had sought refuge in Finland, were handed
> > over to the Germans due to a bureaucratic foul-up and sent first to
> > Nazi-occupied Estonia, and from there to Auschwitz, where all but one
> > of them died or were killed. See Rautkallio, H. _Finland and the
> > Holocaust. The Rescue of Finland's Jews_. New York: Holocaust Library.
> > 1987, for details.
> 
> This is a very interesting story.
> We have 2 parts.. Germans not behaving stereotypically towards Jews, and
> Jews dying at Aus..
> I aren't denying that people died at Aus. That is well documented!
> I'm denying that there was a deliberate attempt to exterminate Jews.

The Germans did not behave "stereotypically" towards the Jews in the
three countries which were allied with them to various degrees:
Bulgaria, Finland, and Hungary. None of these countries wanted to
deport its Jewish citizens, although both Bulgaria and Hungary treated
them harshly, with various Hungarian anti-Semtiic policies resulting in
the death of several tens of thousands of Jews without German
assistance during the alliance. The seriousness of Germany's
"stereotypical" desire to exterminate Jews is, however, revealed by the
fury and brutality with which the Nazis began deporting and
exterminating Hungarian Jews in early 1944, Germany having attacked
Hungary after a new government had broken the alliance and attempted to
extricate Hungary from the war. The competition between Swedish
diplomat Raoul Wallenberg to issue Swedish passports to Budapest Jews,
and Adolf Eichmann to ship them off to Auschwitz or Mauthausen for
extermination, during the summer of 1944, is one of the best documented
chapters of the Holocaust.

Note that the figure given in the statistics I posted yesterday for
Jewish deaths in Bulgaria is 0. On the other hand, the Bulgarian
officials were constantly being subjected to diplomatic pressure and
other intrigues to hand over their Jewish citizens to the Germans. 

On Bulgaria (http://www.heritagefilms.com/BULGARIA.html):


In World War II

Comprehensive anti-Jewish legislation in Bulgaria was introduced after
the outbreak of World War II. The regime's main motivation in its
anti-Semitic pursuits could be explained by its determination to
conform to the orientation of Nazi Germany, with which Bulgaria was
allied. The turning point in events came on Feb. 15, 1940, with the
appointment of Bogdan Filov, a noted scientist and a determined
Germanophile, to the premiership. In July 1940 the government announced
its decision to curb the freedom of the Jewish minority. In August of
the same year the cabinet approved the anti-Jewish "Law for the
Protection of the Nation," patterned after Nazi regulations. On Dec.
24, 1940, Parliament approved the proposed legislation, which was
officially promulgated on Jan. 23, 1941. On March 1, Bulgaria joined
the Tripartite Pact and the German Army entered the country. A
declaration of war on the western Allies followed; yet Bulgaria did not
enter the war against the Soviet Union, mainly because of Slavophile
sentiments. In June 1942 Minister of Interior Gabrovski, the architect
of the anti-Jewish legislation, demanded and received from Parliament a
blank authorization empowering the government with absolute
prerogatives on all questions pertaining to the Jews. Protests against
this measure, coming from such well-known democrats as Nikola Mushanov,
were of no avail. At the end of August the government promulgated new
restrictive regulations and provided for the establishment of a
Commissariat for Jewish Affairs. On Sept. 3, 1942, the lawyer Alexander
Belev, a German-trained anti-Semite, became the head of this
Commissariat.


The Deportations Program

In January 1943 Adolf Beckerle, the German minister to Sofia, was
joined by SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Theodor Dannecker, an associate of
Eichmann, who came to Bulgaria in order to arrange for the deportation
of Bulgarian Jews to the eastern territories. By the summer of 1942,
the Bulgarian government had already surrendered into German hands
Bulgarian Jews residing in countries occupied by Germany. On Feb. 2,
1943, Gabrovski and Dannecker agreed that all Jews living in Greek and
Yugoslav Macedonia and in Thrace, administered by Bulgaria since the
spring of 1941, would also be surrendered to the Germans for
deportation. On Feb. 22, Belev and Dannecker signed a formal agreement
to deport 20,000 Jews. As the total number of Jews living in
Bulgarian-held Thrace and Macedonia was only slightly over 10,000,
Dannecker informed Eichmann that Jews from Bulgaria proper, mainly from
the capital and other large towns, would also be deported. On March 2,
the government approved the surrender of 20,000 Jews into German hands,
but the fiction that only Jews from Macedonia and Thrace were to be
deported continued to be maintained. The collection of Macedonian and
Thracian Jews into special transit camps began immediately.
Preparations were also begun for the concentration of those Jews from
Bulgaria proper who were to make up the agreed figure of 20,000.


Opposition to the Deportations

Rumors of the forthcoming deportations aroused unexpected opposition.
An action group headed by the vice-president of the Bulgarian
Parliament, Dimiter Peshev, was organized in the town of Kustendil.
Peshev appeared before the minister of interior on March 9, and
insisted that the deportation orders be altered forthwith. Both
humanitarian and political considerations motivated the protest
movement. In the aftermath of the German debacle at Stalingrad, it was
thought that Bulgaria should not endanger her chances of an eventual
disengagement from the German alliance by giving her hand to so
monstrous an act. The initiative of Dimiter Peshev developed into a
minor revolt within the government's own majority in Parliament. On
March 17 Peshev presented the prime minister with a petition against
the deportations signed by 42 deputies. Political figures outside
Parliament and prominent figures from the Greek Orthodox Church
hierarchy joined in the effort. Under the pressure, the government of
Bogdan Filov decided on a compromise. It ordered all deportations of
Bulgarian Jews to be stopped. The surrender of Macedonian and Thracian
Jews, however, was carried out. Transported in part by railroad and in
part by river boats on the Danube, a total of 11,384 Jews from the "new
territories" were taken to the death camps in the east (Poland), where
the overwhelming majority perished. Unlike the Italians, the Bulgarians
treated the Jews with exceptional cruelty and strictly applied the
racial restrictions: the Jews were prohibited the free use of the main
thoroughfares, were not allowed to move from one town to another or to
engage in commerce, had to wear the yellow badge, and were issued
special yellow identity cards. Jewish houses were identified as such by
a special sign. In the summer of 1942, several hundred young Jews were
sent to forced labor, and in January 1943 young conscripts were sent to
Bulgaria to work on road construction. Every town with a Jewish
population had its commissioner for Jewish affairs, whose task it was
to ensure that the anti-Jewish orders were properly carried out. Any
jewelry and gold currency in the possession of Jews was confiscated and
handed over to the Bulgarian national bank. Later, the government
justified its action by contending that since Macedonia and Thrace were
never formally annexed to Bulgaria, and since Thracian and Macedonian
Jews were not given Bulgarian citizenship, the regime could not
effectively withstand German pressures. 

On March 26, Dimiter Peshev was reprimanded by Parliament and removed
>from the vice-presidency. His bold intervention on behalf of the Jews
of Bulgaria later helped save his life at the People's Trials held in
the winter of 1945. The Nazi representatives in Sofia continued to
press for the deportation of the Bulgarian Jewish community during
April and May of 1943. In the light of the parliamentary upheavals of
March, the government showed signs of vacillation. At the end of May it
ordered the resettlement of the Jews of Sofia in the provinces as a
first step toward their eventual dispatch to the death camps in the
east. Neither an abortive mass demonstration attempted by the Jews of
Sofia on May 24, nor several protestations by pro-Jewish public figures
prevented the execution of the order. Furthermore, several hundred
prominent Jewish families were sent to the Somovit concentration camp
established on the banks of the Danube. Throughout the war male Jews
continued to work in forced labor camps, employed in various public
construction projects. With these programs, the summit of anti-Jewish
persecution was reached, and the gravest danger of deportation to the
German-occupied eastern territories passed. On Aug. 28, 1943, King
Boris III died under somewhat mysterious circumstances. According to N.
Oren, Boris showed no special affection for the Jews of his country,
nor did he exhibit any particular humanitarian inclinations. The
contention that Boris' own act of benevolence had prevented the
deportation of the Jews from Bulgaria proper is without firm
foundation, but, in common with his government, Boris responded to the
pressures from below generated by Peshev and his friends. According to
Nuremberg Document No. NG-062, although Boris had agreed to the
deportation of Jews from Macedonia and Thrace, he was unwilling to
deport Jews from Bulgaria proper, with the exception of
"Bolshevist-Communist elements." The other Bulgarian Jews were to be
sent to forced-labor camps to work on road construction.


**********************************************

On Hungary: 
Source:http://www.heritagefilms.com/HUNGARY.html

Holocaust Period

The history of the destruction of Hungarian Jewry encompasses the
Jewish population of the enlarged state of Hungary. In 1930, 444,567
Jews had lived in Hungary within the boundaries fixed in 1920. An
additional 78,000 Jews came under Hungarian rule when southern Slovakia
was annexed by Hungary (Nov. 2, 1938). The 72,000 Jews who lived in the
Czechoslovak province of Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia came under Hungarian
jurisdiction when Hungary moved in on March 15­16, 1939. The Jewish
population of the formerly Rumanian northern Transylvania (awarded to
Hungary on Aug. 30, 1940) numbered 149,000. According to the Jan. 31,
1941, census out of a total population of 14,683,323 the Jews numbered
725,007 (184,453 of them in Budapest). In April 1941 there were about
20,000 Jews in the former Yugoslav territory, occupied in the course of
joint German-Hungarian military operations.

In conformity with the "Third Jewish Law" (1941), which defined the
term "Jew" on more radical racial principles, 58,320 persons not
belonging to the Jewish faith were considered Jewish. Thus the total
number of persons officially registered as Jews in mid-1941 was over
803,000. According to a generally accepted estimate, the actual number
of Christians of Jewish origin exceeded by far the officially recorded
58,320. Consequently, the total number of persons liable to racial
discrimination in mid-1941 may be put at a minimum of 850,000.

The Third Jewish Law, based on the Nuremberg laws, prohibited
intermarriage. By mid-1941 the anti-Jewish measures had placed
Hungarian Jewry in a most disadvantageous position in every sphere of
political, economic, cultural, and social life. The government Party of
Hungarian Life pursued a pro-Nazi, antisemitic policy, while various
national-socialist groupings and the Arrow-Cross Party exerted
increasing pressure upon the government to stiffen radically its
anti-Jewish policy.

The decimation of the Jewish population began in the fall of 1940,
shortly after the incorporation of northern Transylvania, from where
thousands of Jews whose citizenship was in question were forcibly
expelled, mainly to Rumania. The first large-scale loss of life among
Hungarian Jewry occurred in July 1941, when the Office for Aliens'
Control expelled to German-held Galicia about 20,000 Jews, whose
Hungarian citizenship was in doubt (mostly inhabitants of the areas
annexed from Czechoslovakia), as well as refugees from neighboring
countries. They were mostly concentrated in Kamenets-Podolski and
murdered in the autumn of 1941 by S.S. men, assisted by Hungarian
troops. The second great loss occurred in January 1942, when 1,000 Jews
were massacred by gendarmes and soldiers in Becska, mainly in Novi-Sad.
In May 1940, special forced labor units had already been set up for
enlisting Jews, who were excluded from army service. When Hungary
joined the war against the Soviet Union, the labor units were sent with
the troops. At that time there were 10 to 12 labor battalions
comprising about 14,000 men, but later the number of Jews on the
eastern front reached 50,000. After the great breakthrough of the
advancing Soviet army near the River Don (January 1943) the Second
Hungarian Army disintegrated and fled in panic. It is estimated that of
the 50,000 Jews, 40,000­43,000 died during the retreat.

The position of the labor units which remained in Hungary was much
better, especially when on March 10, 1942, the extreme antisemitic
prime minister was succeeded by the moderate, conservative Miklus
Kellay. Nevertheless, that month Kellay announced the draft law for
expropriation of Jewish property and envisaged clearing the countryside
of Jews. He successively announced measures to be taken to eliminate
Jews from economic and cultural life. In April 1942 Kellay pledged the
"resettlement" of 800,000 Jews‹as a "final solution of the Jewish
question," pointing out, however, that this could be implemented only
after the war. Presumably, these extreme anti-Jewish plans were meant
to curry favor with the Germans, but in fact Kellay, in an agreement
with the regent Nicolas Horthy, refrained from drastic steps and
resisted pressure from the German government. Dissatisfied with
Kellay's halfhearted measures, Germany exerted greater pressure upon
Hungary from October 1942 for legislation for the complete elimination
of the Jews from economic and cultural life, for compulsory wearing of
the yellow badge, and finally, their evacuation to the east. Similar
interventions went on early in 1943. The Kellay government rejected the
German requests for deportation mainly on economic grounds, arguing
that deportation would ruin Hungary's economy and would harm Germany as
well.

In April 1943 Hitler conferred with Horthy and condemned Hungary's
handling of the "Jewish question" as irresolute and ineffective. Again
the Hungarians rejected the German demands for the deportations,
pointing out the necessity of waiting for favorable circumstances. By
1943 the Kellay government completed the program of eliminating the
Jews from public and cultural life, while a numerous clauses was
applied in economic life to restrict the position of the Jews according
to their percentage in the total population (about 6%). The Jewish
agricultural holdings were almost entirely liquidated, while the
"race-protective" legislation segregated Jews from Hungarian society.
However, in the course of 1943 and beginning of 1944 the Kellay
government secretly conferred with the Western Allies in preparation
for Hungary's extrication from the war. Under these circumstances the
Nazi-style handling of the "Jewish question" hardly suited the
country's interests. In December 1943, military court procedure was
initiated against the criminals involved in the anti-Serbian and
anti-Jewish massacres in Becska (January 1942). The Germans regarded
the prosecution of the murderers of Jews as an attempt to gain footing
with the Jews and the Allies, and the incident contributed to aggravate
the tension between Berlin and Budapest.

top

German Occupation

By the beginning of March 1944 the occupation of Hungary was decided
upon in Berlin. One of the German arguments for this step was the
alleged sabotage committed by the Hungarian government against the
"final solution of the Jewish question." Kellay's rejection of the
German demands for deportation was considered as evidence of Hungary's
determination to join forces with the Western Allies. Operation
Margaret, that is, the occupation of Hungary, took place on March 19,
1944. By the time of the German occupation, close to 63,000 Jews (8% of
the Jewish population) had already fallen victim to the persecution.
Prior to the occupation, on March 12, 1944, Adolf Eichmann, at the head
of S.S. officers of the R.S.H.A. (Reich Security Main Office) began
preparations in Mauthausen, Austria, for setting up the
Sondereinsatzkommando (Special Task Force) destined to direct the
liquidation of Hungarian Jewry. Most of the Sonderkommando members,
among them Hermann Krumey and Dieter Wisliceny, arrived in Budapest on
the day of the occupation, while Eichmann arrived on March 21. On the
German side special responsibility for Jewish affairs was assigned to
Edmund Veesenmayer, the newly appointed minister and Reich
plenipotentiary, and to Otto Winkelmann, higher S.S. and police leader
and Himmler's representative in Hungary.

On March 22 a new government was set up under the premiership of the
former Hungarian minister in Berlin. The government consisted of
extreme pro-Nazi elements, willing collaborators with Germany in the
accomplishment of the "Final Solution." The new regime's minister of
the interior Andor Jaross was in charge of Jewish affairs; however,
actual execution of the anti-Jewish measures was directed by Laszlo
Endre and Laszlo Baky, state secretaries of the Ministry of the
Interior. Immediately after the entry of German troops into Hungary,
hundreds of prominent Jews were arrested in Budapest and several other
cities. Over 3,000 were detained by the end of March, increasing to
8,000 by mid-April. A great number of provincial Jews were rounded up,
mainly at the Budapest railway stations, on the very evening of the
occupation. They were interned at Kistarcsa and other concentration
camps.

The Jewish organizations were dissolved throughout the country, and on
March 20 a Jewish council with eight members was set up in Budapest
upon orders from the Germans, to act as the head of the Jewish
communities. The Germans aimed at manipulating this authorized Jewish
body to execute their measures without resistance and avoid an
atmosphere of panic. By the end of March, similar Jewish councils were
constituted in several larger provincial towns. However, unlike the
Budapest Jewish Council, their activity was minimal and their existence
short-lived. From the first days of the occupation, Eichmann and his
collaborators endeavored to persuade the members of the central Jewish
council that deportations were not intended and that Hungarian Jewry
would not undergo brutal treatment. They assured them that no harm
would befall the Jews, on condition that they obediently carry out the
directives regarding their segregation and their new economic status.

The "Provisional Executive Committee of the Jewish Federation of
Hungary," appointed by the Hungarian government on May 6, likewise
aimed at ensuring complete observance of the anti-Jewish directives. By
the time this body was set up, the Jews of the provinces had already
been concentrated in ghettos, and Jewish community life had ceased to
exist, so that the "Executive Committee" was a mere fiction, devised
with the additional aim of lending a semblance of legality to the
government's measures. Another task imposed on the Jewish bodies
established after the occupation was to assure the complete and
unhindered transfer of Jewish assets and valuables. Simultaneously with
the German actions, the government enacted intensive anti-Jewish
legislation. Numerous anti-Jewish decrees aimed at the total exclusion
of Jews from economic, cultural, and public life. Jews were dismissed
>from all public services and excluded from the professions; their
businesses were closed down and any assets over 3,000 penge (about
$300) confiscated, as well as their cars, bicycles, radios, and
telephones.

On March 31, 1944, Jews were ordered to wear the yellow badge.
Actually, in a few places (e.g., Munkacs), the local authorities issued
this order earlier. On April 7, the decision was taken to concentrate
the Jews in ghettos and afterwards to deport them. The ghettoization
process was entrusted to the Hungarian gendarmerie in collaboration
with the local administration. By mid-April an agreement was reached
between the Hungarian government and the Germans stipulating the
delivery of 100,000 able-bodied Jews to German factories in the course
of April and May. By the end of April the Germans modified this plan by
dismissing any criteria on ability to work and demanded the deportation
of the entire Jewish population to concentration camps in the eastern
territories. However, at the end of April, several groups of
able-bodied Jews were transported from the outskirts of Budapest to
Germany (1,800 persons on April 28, and a smaller group from the
Topolya concentration camp on April 30).


Ghettoization and Deportation

The ghettoization was started in the provinces. The Jews of
Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia were evacuated to ghettos on April 16­19; up to
April 23, about 150,000 Jews were concentrated on the northeastern
areas of Hungary, pendingtheir deportation to Auschwitz, which started
on May 15, with daily transports of 2,000­3,000. At the same time as
the Carpatho-Ruthenian action, some ghettos were set up sporadically in
different parts of the country, arbitrarily initiated by local
authorities (e.g., the Nagykanizsa Jews were forced into a ghetto on
April 19; a number of the Jews of the Veszprem county were crammed into
improvised concentration camps as early as the last days of March).
North Transylvanian Jewry was evacuated to ghettos in the first days of
May, when the process of ghettoization had already been concluded in
northeastern Hungary. The ghettoization in the rest of the country,
except for the capital, was completed simultaneously. The Jews were
driven out of their homes in the night, allowed to pack only a minimal
supply of food and some strictly necessary personal belongings, and
then assembled at temporary collection points. The provisional ghettos
were set up in school buildings, synagogues, or factories outside the
towns. In the large Jewish population centers, ghettos were established
in the vicinity of the towns, mainly in brickyards, barracks, or out in
the open.

Ghettoization was immediately followed by an inventory of the movable
property and the sealing of the houses that had belonged to Jews. The
Jews were permitted to add a few items of food and clothing to their
scanty baggage during the inventory, which in most cases was
accompanied by gendarme brutality and looting by the civilian auxiliary
personnel. In this first phase of the ghettoization, the Jews in the
villages were evacuated to temporary ghettos (collection points) set up
exclusively in, or outside towns (from two to four collection ghettos
per county). The second phase consisted of the evacuation from the
collection ghettos to the larger, central ghettos. 

About 8,000 detainees were interned in a number of concentration camps
(e.g., Kistarcsa, Sarvar). The inmates were partly political prisoners
and partly Jews from the provinces rounded up in Budapest. They also
faced deportation along with the Jews of the ghettos. The living
conditions of over 400,000 Jews forced into makeshift ghettos were
characterized by overcrowding and lack of elementary hygienic
facilities. Some of the inmates had no roof over their heads, and some
ghettos were erected entirely outdoors. During the short period that
ghettos existed in the provinces, inhuman conditions and torture
claimed a number of victims and there were also numerous cases of
suicide. When the next phase of the deportation began, the majority of
the Jewish population was already in a state of physical and mental
exhaustion.

The deportations, which started on May 14, were jointly organized by
the Hungarian and the German authorities; but the Hungarian government
was solely in charge of the Jews' transportation up to the northern
border. Between May 14­15 and June 7, about 290,000 persons were
evacuated from Zone I (Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia) and Zone II (northern
Transylvania). More than 50,000 Jews of northwestern Hungary and those
north of Budapest constituting Zone III were deported by June 30. Zone
IV (southern Hungary, east of the Danube), with about 41,000 persons,
was also evacuated by the end of June. The last phase was concluded by
July 9 with the deportation of more that 55,000 Jews from Zone V,
comprising Transdanubia and the outskirts of Budapest. According to
Veesenmayer's reports, a total of 437,402 Jews were deported from the
five zones. (There appears a slight difference, within a few thousand,
between Veesenmayer's figures and other sources.) The bulk of the
transports reached Auschwitz via central Slovakia by freight train.
Each freight car was to carry about 45 persons, but actually in most
cases 80­100 persons were crammed in under hardly bearable conditions.
Thousands of sick, elderly people, and babies died in the trains during
the three to five days of the journey, due to lack of water and
ventilation.

The ghettoization and deportation were not condemned by Hungarian
public opinion; instances of overt sympathy and willingness to help and
rescue were an exception to the rule. Noteworthy among the few protests
was the outspoken plea of Aron Marton, the Catholic bishop of
Alba-Iulia. Hungarian authorities expelled him from Kolozsvar (now
Cluj) in May 1944 for preaching in defense of the Jews. Attempts were
made throughout the country to evade deportation, but only in northern
Transylvania were most of them successful, due to its common border
with Rumania. The number of Jews who managed to cross the south
Transylvanian border and escape to Rumania in April­June may be put at
about 2,000­2,500. In addition, a few hundred Jews went into hiding in
the countryside, especially in northern Transylvania. Likewise some
hundreds of Jews were spared deportation, when exempted by the
authorities on grounds of military or other merit. A few thousand
provincial Jews managed to evade deportation by either hiding in
Budapest, or living in the Budapest ghettos alongside the bulk of the
capital's Jewish population. About 95% of the deportees were directed
to Auschwitz, where, under camp commander Rudolf Hoess, large-scale
preparations had been made for their mass murder. The able-bodied were
dispersed to 386 camps throughout the German-held Eastern territories
and in the Reich. A small percentage of provincial Jewry managed to
evade deportation to Auschwitz. In the framework of a deal made by
Kasztner with Eichmann, some transports totaling several thousand
(mostly from Debrecen, Szeged, and Szolnok) were directed to Austria.
This group was spared selections, families remained united, and the
majority survived.

In January 1943 a Zionist relief and rescue committee was formed in
Budapest to help Jews in the neighboring countries. Otto Komoly was
president of the committee, Kasztner its vice-president, and Joel Brand
was responsible for the underground rescue from Poland. Shortly after
the German occupation, Kasztner and Brand established contact with
Eichmann. Their names, especially that of Kasztner, became linked with
the transaction known as Blut fuer Ware ("Blood for Goods"). Brand was
sent to Istanbul to mediate between the Allies and the Germans for war
materials, particularly trucks, in exchange for Hungarian Jewish lives,
a mission doomed to failure. Kasztner went to Switzerland several times
to meet with representatives of the American Jewish Joint Distribution
Committee, Jewish Agency, and War Refugee Board in order to work out a
rescue plan and arrange its financing by Jewish organizations. Kasztner
succeeded in concluding a deal with Eichmann, which resulted in the
transport on June 30, 1944, of 1,658 Jews from Hungary to Switzerland
at the fixed price of $1,000 per head and two further transports on
August 18 and December 6, consisting of 318 and 1,368 Jews
respectively, most of whom were of Hungarian and Transylvanian origin.
The first group was first detained at Bergen-Belsen, but, as a result
of Himmler's intervention, finally reached Switzerland by the end of
December.

After deportations from the provinces were completed, preparations went
under way for the deportation of Budapest Jews. The timing of the
Budapest deportation to follow the completion of the "Entjudung"
("ridding of Jews") of the provinces, was set for technical, economic,
and tactical reasons. On June 15, 1944, the Ministry of the Interior
ordered the concentration of the Budapest Jews in some 2,000 houses
marked with a yellow star and designated to enclose about 220,000 Jews.
On June 25 a curfew was ordered for the capital's Jews, who from this
date led the life of prisoners in utter destitution. The series of
foreign interventions in May increased in June, taking on a more
organized form and exerting a favorable influence upon the fate of
Budapest Jewry.

In June the Swiss press, and subsequently the press in other neutral
states and in the Allied countries, published details about the fate of
Hungarian Jewry. The press campaign and the activity of Jewish leaders
in Switzerland brought about a series of interventions with Horthy.
Among others, the king of Sweden, the Vatican, and the International
Red Cross intervened. Among the Hungarian personalities who interceded
with Horthy for the cessation of the deportations were Protestant
bishops and Prince-Primate Justinianus Seradi. These interventions,
along with the concealed intention of the Hungarian government to
create favorable conditions in case of a separate armistice treaty with
the Allies, brought a halt to further deportations on July 8. At the
same time Baky and Endre, the chief Hungarian organizers of the
"Entjudung," were dismissed. At the end of July, Himmler also gave his
approval to the suspension of the deportations. Meanwhile, as many Jews
as possible were successfully placed under the protection of some
neutral states (e.g., Sweden, Switzerland, Portugal).

In August a turning point was reached when Horthy and his supporters
dismissed the Sztjay government. A new government less servile to the
Germans was formed under General Geza Lakatos, with the aim of
preparing the armistice with the Allies. Throughout July and August the
situation of the Budapest Jews and of the labor conscripts appeared
more hopeful. However, on September 4, the Lakatos government declared
war against Rumania, which had joined the Allies (August 23). Hungarian
units crossed the south Transylvanian border and perpetrated acts of
savagery against the Jewish residents in the strip occupied up to the
beginning of October. They committed murders at Ludus and Arad, and
made preparations for the introduction of anti-Jewish measures in the
temporarily occupied territories.

On October 15, the fate of the Budapest Jews took a dramatic turn for
the worse. After Horthy's unsuccessful attempt to extricate Hungary
>from the war, the Germans activated the Arrow-Cross Party of Ferenc
Szalasi, which immediately initiated an unprecedented reign of
anti-Jewish terror. Eichmann, who had been obliged to leave Hungary on
August 24 (after succeeding in deporting the inmates of the Kistarcsa
and Sarvar camps, against Horthy's orders), returned to Budapest on
October 17 and resumed his activity for deporting the capital's Jews.
After October 15, the Budapest Jews were divided into two groups: the
majority were enclosed in a central ghetto, while the smaller segment
lived in the blocks and quarters "protected" by various neutral states
(e.g., by Switzerland and Sweden). As a preliminary step in the
deportations, the Jewish male population aged 16 to 60 was ordered out
to work in fortifications. In accordance with the deportation plans,
two transports of about 50,000 each were to leave in November for
Austria and the Reich. However, these plans were thwarted by the
military situation on the Eastern front. On November 2, Soviet troops
reached the outskirts of Budapest. Under these circumstances the labor
battalions were driven toward western Hungary, and on November 8, a
group of about 25,000 Budapest Jews were directed on foot toward
Hegyeshalom at the Austrian border. They were later followed by other
contingents of up to 60,000. A high percentage of persons on this
"death march" perished on the way. From the Arrow-Cross seizure of
power until the Soviet occupation of Budapest (Jan. 18, 1945), about
98,000 of the capital's Jews lost their lives in further marches and in
train transports, as well as through Arrow-Cross extermination squads,
starvation, disease, and cases of suicide. Some of the victims were
shot and thrown into the Danube.


Resistance and Rescue

Organized resistance among Budapest Jews made itself felt only in the
autumn months, but it failed to develop on a large scale. A few small,
armed groups were active in Budapest, attacking Arrow-Cross men and
performing rescueoperations. In several cases, armed Jewish youths,
disguised as Arrow-Cross men or as soldiers, prevented executions and
killed Szalasi's men. One form of resistance was the Zionist halutz
movement rescue activities, which consisted in forging identity cards,
supplying money, food, and clothing, and facilitating escape or hiding.
An attempt by the Haganah to activate the rescue work by sending
Hungarian-born Jews from Palestine failed in the summer of 1944. A few
members of the Haganah were parachuted by the British into Yugoslav
territory, from where they crossed into Hungary, but were captured. Two
of them were executed (Perez Goldstein and Hannah Szenes). The rescue
operation by some neutral states proved to be efficient. Up to the end
of October 1944, more than 1,600 Jews in Budapest were provided with
San Salvador documents. By the end of the year, the number of Jews
enjoying the protection of neutral states and of the International Red
Cross in the "protected houses" rose to 33,000. The Arrow-Cross
authorities recognized, among others, 7,800 Swiss and 4,500 Swedish
safe-conduct passes. Prominent figures in this rescue work were Charles
Lutz, a Swiss diplomat, and Raoul Wallenberg, secretary of the Swedish
Legation in Budapest.

By September-October 1944, northern Transylvania was occupied by the
Soviet armies, followed by Hungary's eastern, southern, and
northeastern strip. The Soviet forces occupied Budapest on Jan. 18,
1945, and by early April all "Trianon" Hungary. The Soviet occupation
of Hungary brought freedom to the Budapest ghettos and to those labor
conscripts who were within the borders.


Demographic Total

Statistical data on the destruction of Hungarian Jewry show that about
69,000 Jews were saved in Budapest's Central Ghetto and 25,000 in the
"Protected Ghetto." In addition to these two categories, which also
include persons safeguarded in the buildings of some neutral diplomatic
missions, about 25,000 Jews came out of hiding in Budapest. A few
thousand survived in Red Cross children's homes. An exact assessment of
the number of Jews who returned to Hungary is rendered difficult by the
fact that northern Transylvania, Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia, Felvidek, and
Bacska were once again detached from it.

Throughout the first postwar months there was a large-scale fluctuation
of population between "Trianon" Hungary and the so-called "succession
states." The number of Jewish forced laborers who returned to Hungary
or were liberated there, including those who later returned from Soviet
captivity, may be estimated at 20,000. By the end of 1945 some 70,000
deportees had returned. The number of Jews saved in all these
categories in postwar Hungary totaled 200,000. The losses of Hungarian
Jewry from the Trianon territories was 300,000. A relatively high
proportion of the survivors were non-Jews, who were, however,
considered Jews according to the racial laws. 

A total number of about 25,000­40,000 Jews who were saved returned to
northern Transylvania; some 15,000 to Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia and about
10,000 to Felvidek, reattached to Czechoslovakia. The number of Jews
who returned to Bacska is estimated at a few thousand. The relatively
small number of survivors outside Hungary, who failed to return in 1945
to their former homes, cannot be assessed.

Of the 825,000 persons considered Jews in the 1941­45 period in greater
Hungary, about 565,000 perished, and about 260,000 survived the
Holocaust.



> In summary:
> Massive post of copied text.

That's how you start to do research. The coipied text posted above
gives names and dates that can be followed up in specialist books and
journals devoted to the WW II history of Finland, Bulgaria, and
Hungary. You can dismiss everything above as fairy tales, or you can
hit the books and check out the veracity - or lack thereof - of the
information given above. In any case, the abundance of information
given scotches your claim that there is "no evidence" for the
Holocaust.

> 4 Uncorroborated documents, One anecdote (Interesting though it was) and one
> grave uncovered in the Ukraine along with a million questions.
> 
> I'm sorry to be harsh... 15 million did you say?

No I didn't. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:50 EDT 2001
Article: 907682 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 13:45:36 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <070620011345364561%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b1e08e0.1894605@news.supernews.com> <9fl33c$aaf$1@panix6.panix.com> <36fd8c48.0106061015.3c12106b@posting.google.com> <060620012136016447%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <36fd8c48.0106061858.31cd972@posting.google.com>
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In article <36fd8c48.0106061858.31cd972@posting.google.com>, Mimereader
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:<060620012136016447%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>...

> > 
> > Nonsense. Blacks were brought to the new world because the whites did
> > not have the numbers or the physical stamina to do what it took to
> > wrest the living space form its earlier inhabitants and "owners". Being
> > that the blacks did much of the essential work, but were not paid for
> > it, we have a legitimate claim on co-ownership.

> You're just repeating the same thing again, hearing only yourself go
> on about some imagined racial debt. 

This has nothing to do with race, this is about hundreds millions of
man-hours of forced work performed with no pay other than room and
board. There were also white slaves and black slave owners, and the
same problem of uncompensated labor applies to them as well. 

The institution of slavery forced millions of people to work heir
entire lives, with the usufructs of their labor being expropriated,
minus the cost of room and board, in total by their owners.

> But the reason there couldn't
> possiblly be a racial debt is that Whites are not allowed a socially
> acceptable ethnic identity in this era of Zionist fed values.

There is no racial debt and the issue has nothing whatsoever to do with
Zionism.

> 
> There's no Yin without the Yang. That of course is reserved only for
> Blacks and Jewish people. Perhaps you don't see the injustice of this
> one sided game because, as you clarified before, you're not a Gentile.

Neither am I a Jew. I am a free agent in matters theological.

> Your people are so strong in this country that they built a Holocaust
> Museum with our taxpayer's money in Washington DC, and it's bigger
> than many of the memorials to more deserving Americans. Would I be
> surprised at your people again digging into our pockets for slavery,
> taking money even from the foreign born Whites? Not at all.

I'm not even writing from the USA. What your country does with its
taxpayer's money is none of my business, even if my personal opinion is
that a Holocaust Museum is a far wiser and cost-effective investment
than $600 toilet seats in jet bombers.

Regards,
Eugene Holman
Posting from Helsinki, Finland


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:50 EDT 2001
Article: 907683 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 13:35:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <070620011335147178%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b1e08e0.1894605@news.supernews.com> <9fl33c$aaf$1@panix6.panix.com> <36fd8c48.0106061015.3c12106b@posting.google.com> <060620012136016447%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b1f3ef1$0$205@news.impulse.net>
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In article <3b1f3ef1$0$205@news.impulse.net>, Waldo
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:060620012136016447%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
>
> >
> > Nonsense. Blacks were brought to the new world because the whites did
> > not have the numbers or the physical stamina to do what it took to
> > wrest the living space form its earlier inhabitants and "owners". Being
> > that the blacks did much of the essential work, but were not paid for
> > it, we have a legitimate claim on co-ownership.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> Hmmmm. . .  did much of the essential work, but were not paid for it . . .
> Do horses, mules and oxen then have a "legitimate claim" to co-ownership as
> well?

They do not bear the privileges and obligations of citizenship (which
the slaves didn't, either, but which their descendants do), nor are
they covered by contitutional guarantees and other legal protection
(which the slaves were).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:51 EDT 2001
Article: 907695 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,uk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM AFTER IRVING v LIPSTADT: Hot off the presses
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:29:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <070620011529510969%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <991781985.16344.0.nnrp-14.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <20010605190723.09778.00002663@ng-cs1.aol.com>  <060620011814047703%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <991868594.25137.0.nnrp-12.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <070620011258566140%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <070620011258566140%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
 wrote:

> In article <991868594.25137.0.nnrp-12.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
>  wrote:
> 
> > Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> > news:060620011814047703%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > 
> > > http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/auschwitz/html/Ernaehrung.html
> > > 
> > 
> > You have provided a source, but the article has not.
> > Where is the bibliography and the reference to nazi documents outlining the
> > menus etc

Source: http://www.remember.org/fact.fin.diet.html

I.G. Farben's Auschwitz Diet

I.G. Auschwitz: I.G. Farben's Buna (synthetic rubber) division, built
near the site of the Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II concentration camps.
(Farben eventually built their own corporate concentration camp at the
site, to eliminate the need to march prisoners several miles to and
>from the Buna plant every day, as had been the practice. It was known
as Monowitz, and had a sign over the gate which read "Arbeit Macht
Frei.")

"Starvation was a permanent guest at Auschwitz. The diet fed to I.G.
Auschwitz inmates, which included the famous `Buna Soup' - a
nutritional aid not available to other prisoners - resulted in an
average weight loss for each individual of about six and a half to nine
pounds a week. At the end of a month, the change in the prisoner's
appearance was marked; at the end of two months, the inmates were not
recognizable except as caricatures formed of skin, bones, and
practically no flesh; after three months, they were either dead or so
unfit for work that they were marked for release to the gas chambers at
Birkenau. Two physicians who studied the effect of the I.G. diet on the
inmates noticed that `the normally nourished prisoner at Buna could
make up the deficiency by his own body for a period of three
months....The prisoners were condemned to burn up their own body weight
while working and, providing no infections occurred, finally died of
exhaustion.'" (Borkin, 125) 

Work Cited 
Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York: The
Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company. 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:51 EDT 2001
Article: 907701 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Afroamericans in Ancient Egypt!
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:10:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <070620011610378075%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <070620010831390282%thestinger@hotmail.com>
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In article <070620010831390282%thestinger@hotmail.com>, smiley
 wrote:

> Egyptian wannabes!!! What logic! What intelligence!

The notion of there being Afroamericans in Ancient Egypt is as absurd
as Bill Clinton's introduction of Nelson Mandela as a great
"African-American". The fact that the roots of Ancient Egyptian culture
are in the post-neolithic black African Tasa and Badari cultures of
Saharan and sub-Saharan Africa is not.

Ancient Egyptian culture evolved northwards along the Nile Valley from
the sources of the Nile in what are now Sudan and Ethiopia. Its
originally African culture and language became more Mediterranean,
cosmopolitan, and racially mixed as a consequence of increased contacts
with the Arabian Peninsula and the Mediterranean world, particularly
during the last millennium of the high culture which lasted for more
than 3300 years.

If a plain vanilla American white can feel "racial pride" in the
achievements of the European Greeks and Romans, a plain chocolate
African-American is certainly justified in feeling "racial pride" in
the achievements of the African Egyptians and Nubians.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:52 EDT 2001
Article: 907745 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:31:08 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <070620011931081686%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b1e08e0.1894605@news.supernews.com> <9fl33c$aaf$1@panix6.panix.com> <36fd8c48.0106061015.3c12106b@posting.google.com> <060620012136016447%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b1f3ef1$0$205@news.impulse.net> <070620011335147178%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B1F9799.A390D687@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B1F9799.A390D687@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Many an argument is sound --- just sound. If America's black people feel that
> a
> horrible injustice was wreaked upon them by tearing them from their homelands,
> I believe America would be willing to set matters to rights by a grant of
> ---say--- $20,000 to every black family willing to renounce their citizenship
> and
> leave the country.
> 
> I decline to discus the matter any further.
> 
> ========================================================

1. It's not a matter of having been wrested from their homelands, it's
a matter of never having been paid for work performed by them or their
descendants once enslaved or born into slavery, and of the usufructs of
the lifetimes of labor performed by several generations of slaves being
completely appropriated by their owners.

2. It's not a matter of black people, but rather a matter of the
descendants of victims of slavery. A certain number of slaves were
white, a certain number of slave owners were black.

3. Given that slave owners were not averse to quenching their carnal
lust with their female slaves, and that, with respect to black people,
the institution of slavery went to great lengths to erase any trace or
memory of African ancestry, the only "homeland" many black people in
America know today is the England, Scotland, or Ireland of their
slave-owning European male lines.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:52 EDT 2001
Article: 907761 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations Fails
Supersedes: <070620012107279281%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:11:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <070620012111454830%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <4d338ce1.0106070825.26eba877@posting.google.com>, Andrew
 wrote:

> Daedra Morrighan  wrote in message
> news:...

> > 
> > White Jews receive billions a year in "reparations"...
> 
> Could you direct me to a source where I could find out exactly how
> much is paid in these reparations?

Here's a URL with links that will give you information about the nature
of the problem, http://www.dwelle.de/english/topstory/19991007.html

I would like your input on the following scenario.

Imagine that you are a 16-year old, with two younger siblings, living
with your parents in a middle class home.

One day your country is invaded, and your family is declared criminals
on the basis of your ethnicity by the invading power.

Authorities of the invading power come to your home, declare it and all
property in it to be confiscated to them, and arrest you and your
family. You are all sent in sealed cattle cars to a concentration camp
in a third country, a week-long trip during which you are given neither
food nor water and within the course of several people in your boxcar,
including one of your sisters, die. Your parents and surving sister are
selected for extermination upon arrival, and you never see them again.
You are made the member of a labor brigade. Your job is to work 14
hours a day, seven days a week, packing and carrying dangerous
chemicals at a chemical factory run by a major German chemical concern.
There is no worker protection. You see many of your co-workers die of
the noxious fumes, of exhaustion, or beaten and denied food for not
fulfilling norms. Your body needs 2200 calories a day to do this work,
you receive 1800. You survive six months of this regime, but lose 60
lbs. and are almost a walking skeleton. One day the camp commandant
announces the liquidation of the camp: you are given the choice - be
shot or march westwards. You take the latter choice and are marched
through the snowy landscape, barefoot, in nothing more than your prison
uniform and with no food but melted snow and any edible garbage you can
find by the road for three weeks. You contract pneumonia and are a
miserable sack of skin and bones, hardly able to continue marching,
when a squadron of American troops meets up with your group, arrests
the guards, and sends you and your surviving fellow prisoners to a
military hospital, where you are gradually nursed back to something
resembling a human being. All of your toes and half of your right foot,
and three of your fingers have to be amputated. Inhaling the chemicals
in the factory has left you with a chronic and debilitating cough.
Having seen so many of your co-workers killed in cold blood, you have
also developed a nervous condition.

You spend the next three years convalescing at a hospital at a DP camp,
eventually being told that your body has suffered so much that you will
never regain your full health. You are without family or assets. Your
native country has become a communist state to which you cannot return.
You eventually grab at the opportunity offered to emigrate to the USA
and start a new life there. And you are only 20 years old.


If this had happened to you and assuming that all records of your
arrest, of the confiscation of your family home and property, and of
the killing of your family had been preserved and uncontested:

1. Would you feel entitled to some compensation?
2. If so, how much, from whom, and under what terms?
3. Would you bear a long-standing grudge for the country that had
ruined your life?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jun  7 17:26:52 EDT 2001
Article: 907765 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:57:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
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In article , jgarbuz
 wrote:

> Computing would be the easy part. At today's costs figure minimum wage times
> 3 million
> slaves times 100 years to round it off.  

Why should it be minimum wage? Field slaves arguably did minimum wage
work, but not cooks, butlers, drivers (= chauffeurs), or child minders.
They all had to have a degree of professional competence and
responsibility that would, in a market economy, have guaranteed them
somewhat more than the minimum wage. Slaves also worked overtime, as
well as during weekends and holidays.

And why start at 1776? American chattel slavery began in 1621, and it
was well established as an institution by 1650. Why should the
uncompensated labor done in Colonial America during the more than 120
years preceding American independence be written off? The independent
United States inherited the assets and purloined slave-produced
usufructs of the thirteen colonies, why not the encumberances as well?
The year 1776 did not signify any change in the master-slave
relationship that had consolidated over the previous six generations.

To simplify things and show that a compromise can be reached, I suggest
minimum wage plus ten percent, ten million slaves, white and black, and
200 years. The figure would be in the rance of $10,000,000,000,000,000,
not exactly pocket change, but certainly within reason.
.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:36 EDT 2001
Article: 907999 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations Fails
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 08:44:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <080620010844196555%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b1e08e0.1894605@news.supernews.com> <3B1E669A.6002CD7@hers.com>  <4d338ce1.0106070825.26eba877@posting.google.com> <070620012111454830%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> 
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In article , Daedra Morrighan
 wrote:

> In article <070620012111454830%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman says...
> >
> >In article <4d338ce1.0106070825.26eba877@posting.google.com>, Andrew
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Daedra Morrighan  wrote in message
> >> news:...
> >
> >> > 
> >> > White Jews receive billions a year in "reparations"...
> >> 
> >> Could you direct me to a source where I could find out exactly how
> >> much is paid in these reparations?
> >
> >Here's a URL with links that will give you information about the nature
> >of the problem, http://www.dwelle.de/english/topstory/19991007.html
> >
> >I would like your input on the following scenario.
> >
> >Imagine that you are a 16-year old, with two younger siblings, living
> >with your parents in a middle class home.
> >
> >One day your country is invaded, and your family is declared criminals
> >on the basis of your ethnicity by the invading power.
> 
> Actually most Jewish leaders of the time supported the Nazis.

You are not answering the question. The issue of the Nazis and the
Jewish population in Germany is one thing. I was talking about the 95%
of the victims of the Holocaust that were not Germans, had nothing to
do with Germany, and couldn't have cared less about the Nazis. The Jews
of Greece, Hungary, Estonia, Poland, the USSR, Lithuania, Norway, the
Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Slovakia, etc. whose fates were similar to
those in the scenario I described.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:37 EDT 2001
Article: 908011 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,uk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM AFTER IRVING v LIPSTADT: Hot off the presses
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:54:07 +0300
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In article <991948408.17282.0.nnrp-01.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:070620011258566140%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> 
> 
> > It was published under the name of the Department of History of the
> > University of Linz, Austria. They could be approached for further
> > information, but one expect some credibility from an institution of
> > this type.
> 
> I'm sorry but this is argument from authority whichever way one cuts it!

Such a website is not intended to be a substitute for serious research.
On the other hand, a University department of history, particularly the
one in Hitler's hometown, would hardly post fairytales about this
sensitive issue on the net. All of the points made at the website can
be verified in the scholarly literature. The photographs are familiar
to those who know the standard literature on Auschwitz and the
Holocaust.

> >
> > Auschwitz continued to generate bodies up until its liberation in
> > January, 1945.
> 
> It certainly did. Not helped by the allied bombing of all necessary
> provisions and supplies.
> According to Sedley L J when denying Irving appeal rights:
> "..The controversy about methods and numbers may legitimately remain.."
> How then would one begin investigating the controversy?

By assembling and assessing the known evidence. One notorious
assessment of the known evidence, the Leuchter Report, turns out to be
more an argument for than an argument against the existence of
homocidal gas chambers at Auschwitz. If you think about it, he claims
on the one hand that the structures in question would have made
gassings of the type described "scientifically impossible"; on the
other hand, he claims that the cyanide compounds he detected are the
result of a fumigation "once, long ago". 

Now, in order to fumigate, which means kill vermin, you need a
concentration of cyanide of 15,000 ppm maintained over a period ranging
between 20 and 72 hours. In order to kill people you need a
concentration of 300 ppm maintained over a mere 15 minutes. If the
alleged gas chambers were able to withstand the concentrations needed
for fumigation, and the camp staff was able to ventilate them without
gassing everyone in the camp, then the same facilities could certainly
have been used for the far lower concentrations and times of exposures
needed to gas people. When Leuchter announced his report to the public,
it was accompanied by David Irving's absurd claim that it takes
"colossally higher" concentrations of cyanide to kill people than it
does lice, and by Robert Faurisson's equally absurd workjing assumption
that when searching for and investigating structures alleged to have
been Nazi gas chambers, we should assume an American execution gas
chamber as an archetype. Leuchter's report and these totally unfounded
claims are the source of the gas chamber controversy. They should be
laid to rest. Mastery of the use of cyanide to kill lice properly
includes mastery of the use of cyanide to kill people. The high-tech,
overkill methodology of killing used in an American gas chamber is not
a prerequisite for a chamber in which the people trapped inside are
killed by manipulating the content of the ambient atmosphere.

> > > Famously unscientific excavation, no records kept, now documentation.
> > > No mention of Jews. Possibly attributed to Soviets, not Nazis.
> 
> 
> According to my sources, no such videos or photographs exist.

At the beginning of the talk he tells his audience:

Source: 
Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ukraine/serniki-excavations

"The events we investigated are shocking and I must warn you that some
of the pictures I am going to show you of the events are themselves
shocking."

The photographic evidence generated by the investigation was part of
the evidence presented at a trial in Australia.


> Much of the 'Riga' evidence is under debate at the moment from
> the exact nature of the camps to Wilkomirski's tales and Eichmann's
> recollections.

I have an extremely detailed and meticulously done study of the Riga
massacre, A. Ezergailis' _The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944_. I myself
have visited the mass grave site in the old Jewish graveyard in central
Riga, where the mnore than 5,000 people shot along the road to Rumbala
are buried. Nobody has, as far as I know, disturbed the grave since it
was closed around December 10, 1941, although fresh flowers are brought
there every day. The Riga massacre is extremely well documented, as is
the much smaller massacre at Liepâja, which took place a week later.

> > > Who's words?
> 
> 
> Actually I meant the 'extermination' part. I wasn't questioning whether they
> had been shipped or not.

Himmler, Stahlecker, and co. spoke of effcting a "Final Solution" to
the Jewish problem in Finland, just as they had effected a "Final
Solution" to the Jewish problem in neighboring Estonia. Remember that
at the Wannsee Conference of January 20, 1942, Estonia had been noted
to be "judenfrei" - free of Jews. I don't know how long you've been
following this newsgroup, but I'll repost here some of the material in
Estonian archives documenting the fate of Jews in Estonia between
September 1941 and April 1942:

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ftp.py?places//estonia/usenet.9906
Shofar FTP Archive File: places//estonia/usenet.9906



In article ,
holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:

> David Irving quoting Eichmann's memoirs:
> (http://www.codoh.com/irving/irveichgoebb.html):

> [Adolf Eichmann wrote:] "I was a
> parent too, and I instinctively stepped forward as though to take the
> child. But at that very moment the salvo of shots rang out. Both were
> killed only a few feet away from me. The child's brains were spattered over
> my leather greatcoat, and my driver had to clean the mess off." 

Now, how did that woman and child come to be in a situation where the
German Einsatzkommandos, the paramilitary forces of a country which had
invaded their homeland, the Byelorussian S.S.R., thought it necessary to
kill them and hundreds of other people, many of them women, children,
and infants, in a mass shooting operation?

I do not have documents concerning the operation in Minsk, but I do have
facsimiles of documents from the Tallinn Police Archives, held in the
Estonian State Archives (ERA) which can give us some idea of what
happened and which have value as evidence. These documents are mostly
in German, although some are in Estonian, showing the division of labor
between the Germans making the decisions and the Estonians implementing
them. I give the German documents in the original language and the
Estonian documents in either a summary or translation into English.
They are relevant to the events in Minsk insofar as they represent an
implementation of precisely the same policies and actions with local
variations. There were so few Jews in Estonia that the mass shootings
conducted there by the Nazis were relatively small, involving at most a
few hundred victims. Many Jews were dealt with like the Pliner
children, whose case is reviewed below.

BACKGROUND
Estonia had a small Jewish population that was protected by some of the
most liberal and tolerant legislation in Europe guaranteeing cultural
autonomy dating back to 1925. The country's 3000+ Jewish population had
its own cultural organizations, maintained a few synagogues, and was
never regarded as constituting anything of problem.

The country was violently incorporated into the USSR during the summer
of 1940. Jewish cultural autonomy was ended, synagogues were closed,
and
prominent members of the Jewish religious community were shot,
deported, or arrested. Many Jewish-owned businesses were nationalized
in conjunction with the imposition of a communist economy. Some of the
Soviet officials that supervised the imposition of a communist system
were Jewish by 'ethnicity' but not by religion or culture. Most
Estonian Jews were professionals or businessmen, middle class people
whose livelihood and social class were directly threatened by the
imposition of a communist system. Some looked to Germany as the
country's only salvation from the communists. A smaller segment of
Estonian Jews had supported or sympathized with the communists to some
degree, as, indeed, had some Estonians.

The German army attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941, and they soon
entered Estonia. The Soviet government there was liquidated, and a
German occupation government replaced it. Estonia thus became not a
German ally, but, together with its two Baltic neighbors Latvia and
Lithuania, a protectorate called 'Ostland' ruled directly by the German
authorities and their local henchmen: German money, stamps, and state
symbols were introduced.


GRMAN POLICY TOWARDS JEWS IN ESTONIA

Jews began to be arrested and executed immediately after the German army
entered Estonia. The Estonian state archives contain death certificatess
and lists of Jews shot dated July, August, and early September 1941. For
example the official death certificate of Ruvin Teitelbaum, born in
Tapa on January 17, 1907, states laconically in a form with item 7
already printed with only the date left blank: "7. By a decision of the
German Security Police on September 4, 1941, condemned to death, with
the decision being carried out the same day in Tallinn." Teitelbaum's
crime was "being a Jew" and thus constituting a "threat to the public
order".

On September 11, 1941 an article entitled *Juuditäht seljal" - "A Jewish
Star on the Back" appeared in the Estonian mass-circulation newspaper
"Postimees". It stated that Dr. Drechsler, the High Commissioner of
Ostland, had proclaimed ordinances in accordance with which all Jewish
residents of Ostland from that day onward had to wear visible yellow
six-pointed Stars of David at least 10 cm. in diameter on the left side
of their chest and back. On the same day Regulations
[ERA.F.R-89.N.1.S.1.L.2] issued by the German Security Police were
delivered to all local police departments proclaiming that the
Nuremberg Laws were in force in Ostland, defining who was a Jew, and
what Jews could and could not do. Jews were prohibited from changing
their place of residence, walking along the sidewalk, using any means
of transporation, going to theaters, museums, cinema, or school. The
professions of lawyer, physician, notary, banker, or real estate agent
were declared closed to Jews, as was the occupation of street hawker. 
The regulations also declared that the property and homes of Jewish
residents were to be confiscated. The regulations emphasized
that work to this ends was to be begun as soon as possible, and that
lists of Jews, their addresses, and their property were to be completed
by the police by September 20, 1941. These regulations also provided
for the establishment of a concentration camp near the south-eastern
Estonian city of Tartu. A later decision provided for the construction
of a Jewish ghetto near the town of Harku, but this was never built, a
small concentration camp being built there instead.

The Estonian State Archives contain material pertinent to the cases of
about 450 Estonian Jews. They were typically arrested either at home or
in the street, taken to the local police station, and charged with the
'crime' of being Jews. They were either shot outright or sent to
concentration camp and shot later.

An Estonian woman, E.S. describes the arrest of her Jewish husband as
follows:
[Quoted in Eugenia Gurin-Loov, *Holocaust of Estonian Jews 1941*, Eesti
Juudi Kogukond, Tallinn 1994: pg. 224.

[BEGIN QUOTE}
As my husband did not go out of the house, I was the one to go to town
every day to see what was going on. I was very frightened when I saw a
poster at the corner of Vabaduse Square and Harju Street calling for
people to show where the apartments of Jews were located. On that fatal
day of September 13, I went out again because the weather was fine but
I remember being very worried. I rushed home and when I got there and
heard some voices in our apartment I had a foreboding that something
bad had happened.

There were two men in our apartment from the Self Defence Forces who
said they were taking my husband to the police station. I ran after
them and went to the chief officer and asked for permission to see my
husband. The chief officer said that he could not give me permission
but added, in a low voice, that I should come the next morning when the
prisoners would be taken to prison and perhaps I could see my husband
in the corridor. I returned the next morning as I had been advised, and
it was the last time I saw my husband. On September 15 I went to the
German Security Police on Tõnismägi in an attempt to get information
about my husband. I was told he had been shot. I asked the reason since
he had not been a communist but a businessman, The answer was: "Aber er
war doch ein Jude." [But he was a Jew.].
[END QUOTE]

Archive records make it possible to trace the fates of several Estonian
Jews through the stages from arrest to execution.

THE PLINER FAMILY

Mr. Jüri Pliner (born May 23, 1898) was arrested and executed by the
Germans on September, 16, 1941. His three children, Mirjam (born August
15, 1927) and David and Sima (twins born on Nov. 11, 1934), remained in
Tallinn with Elisabet Lizenko (Letinkov), their stepmother, in Nõmme, a
fashionable suburb to the south of Tallinn, living at 39 Nurme Street,
apartment 7. The Estonian State Archives contains correspondence
between the German authorities covering the months between the death of
their father and disappearance of their mother, and the excution of the
children in late March, 1942. I reproduce some of the documents here,
the ones in Estonian translated, and the ones in German in the original
language (Note that Litzenko is the Ukrainian, and Letinkov the
Russian, form of the same name).

************************************************
1. A report to the head of the Political Police of Tallinn-Harju
Prefecture that three Jewish children are living in Nõmme at 39 Nurme
St., apartment
7.
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.1] 

Tallinn-Harju Perfecture       To the Director of the Political       
                               Police Division, agent J. Pinka

                      Report

Pliner, Jüri, married to Sofie Pliner, both Jews by nationality. Their
three children - David, born 1934, Mirjam 1927, Siima, 1934. Parents'
whereabouts unknown, children now living at Nurme St. 39-7, Nõmme.
    Information: Elisabet Litzenko, Nurme 39-7, Nõmme.
Nõmme, 20 Dec. 1941
                               R. Pinka

************************************************
2. Correspondence in the investigating file of the three Pliner children
between the Political Police of Tallinn-Harju Prefecture and the
inspector
of police at Nômme.
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.4p.] 

a. A request to clarify the ethnicity and religion of the children:

[STAMP: Delivered Tallinn 9th division Police Inspectorate chancellery,
2 January, 1942 Nr. 2063]

To the Police Inspectorate of Nõmme

I request that you clarify the ethnicity and religion of the suspects
Taavet, Siima and Miljam Pliner, as well as the ethnicity and religion
of their parents.
Tallinn 30 December, 1941, Nr. 5880

[Signed. EsM]
Tallinn-Harju Prefecture
Director of the Poilitical Police

-----------------------------------------------
b. The answer to the above:
                                    Senior assistant E. Ott
Accoding to information taken from our files the childrenn of Jüri
Pliner, Taavet, Siima, and Mirjam (not Miljan) are Jews by ethnicity
and Jews by religion. Their parents are also Jews and of Jewish
religion.

15 I, 1942
                                    [signed: A. Hane]
                                   Nõmme police division
                                   3rd district office

-----------------------------------------------
c. The response to the above:

                          Tallinn-Harju Political Police
                                Implemented
                          In Nömme, 17 Jan. 1942, case nr. 2063
                                  [signed: illegible]  
                          Nõmme Div. Police inspectorate
                                  [signed: J. Laanest]
                          Secretary

URGENT III M

To the Nômme Police Inspectorate
I request that you verify the ethnicity and religion of the
already-mentioned suspects Taavet, Siima, and Miljam Pliner, as well as
those of their parents with documentary evidence so that it can be
proven.

Tallinn, 21 January, 1942, Nr. 5880
[Signed. EsM]
Tallinn-Harju Prefecture
Director of the Poilitical Police

Senior assistant E. Ott

************************************************
3. A lengthy report dated March 8, 1942 in Estonian by agent L. Ranne on
the Pliner family proving their Jewish origin
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.13,13p,14,14p,15].

The report goes through the date and circumstances of birth of Jüri
Pliner and concludes that: "Jüri PLINER as well as his spouse SOPHIE
are of Jewish ethnicity according to various documents at the Ministry
of Internal Affairs." It also notes that the children are from his
first marriage, which dates from July 31, 1923. That marriage ended on
January 31, 1941, and on August 20, 1941 he remarried, this time to
Elisabeth Letnikov, born in Poland and ethnically a Russian. The
children are determined to be Jews, but Elisabeth Letnikov is not.
              
************************************************
4.  A request from E. Viks, chief of the political police at
Tallinn-Harju Perfecture to SS-Hauptscharführer Dörsam concerning
actions to be taken with respect to the Pliner children.            
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.18] 

Die Politische Polizei
der Präfektur Tallinn-Harju
29 Dezember 1941.

Nr.   5880          An den 
                    SS-Hauptscharführer Dörsam,
                                          Reval

   Mit u/Heutigen teilen wir Ihnen mit, dass 3 Kinder des Juden  P i l
n e r, Jüri (exekutiert) und seiner Ehefrau Sofie (Befinden unbekannt):

          David geb. 1934
          Siima   "  1934
          Mirjam  "  1927

   gegenwärtig sich bei Elisabeth Litzenko, Nõmme, Nurme 39-7, befinden.
   Wir bitten Sie um Ihre Stellungnahme in dieser Abgelegenheit.

                                      [signed: E. Viks]
                                Chef der politischen Polizei
                                der Präfektus Tallinn-Harju


********************************************
5. SS-Sturmbahnführer Seyler's decision of March 21, 1942 concerning the
fate of the Pliner children.
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.16] 
                                             Reval, den 21.3.1942
Der SS- und Polizeiführer
Der Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD.
Tgb. IV - Pä/A. Nr. 9/42.


An die
Politische Abteilung
z Hd. von Herrn W i c k s .
R e v a l

Betrifft: Kinder des Juden  P l i n e r .
Vorgang;  Dort. Schr. v. 10.3.42/Nr. 5880.
Anlagen: Ohne.

Die Kinder des Obengenannten mit Namen David, Siima und Mirjam sind zu
exekutieren.

Frau E. Letinkov ist unter Polizei-Aufsicht zu stellen.

                                               I. V.
                                                S e y l e r

********************************************
6. A letter in Estonian to assistant Leopold Jügensson of the
Directorate of the Tallinn-Harju Perecture dated 27.03.1942 announcing
that the property of the children has been registered and confiscated
by the German occupation government, and that the children have been
brought to the Political Police of Tallinn-Harju Prefecture.
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.17.17p].

*********************************************
7. An extract from the dossier on the Pliner children reporting that
they have been executed. [ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.18].

Politische Abteiling                          Reval, den 28.3.1942
der Pol. Präfejtur Reval-Harrien.
Nr......

An den 
Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD
beim SS- und Polizeiführer,
R e v a l .

Betrifft:    Kinder des Juden  P l i n e r
Vorgang:     I/Schr.v. 21.3.1942, Tgb.Nr. 9.
Anlagen:     1

In Erledigung Ihres obigen Schreibens berichte ich:
                 P.1 - Ist befolgt
                 P.2 - Frau E. L e t i n k o v, ist unter polit.
Polizei-Aufsicht gestellt.

                                       Leiter der Politschen Abteiling
                                      der Polizei Präfektur
Reval-Harrien

******************************************
8. An extract in Estonian containing an inventory of the the personal
property confiscated from the three Pilner children in conjunction with
their arrest and delivery to the Political Police on March 27, 1942. The
list notes that the children's property was in two cardboard suitcases,
one beige and one brown, and that, including the suitcases, it consists
of 43 items, including [8] 12 pairs of childrens socks, [17] nine
skirts of various colors, [23] 5 pairs of white gloves, and [35] a dark
blue winter coat with a gray fur collar. It is signed by constable
Artur Braun and dated May 5, 1942. [ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.22,22p.]

******************************************
9. The Pilner children disappear from history with this final document
>from the Estonian Security Police to the inspector of police in Nõmme.
[ERA.F.R-64.N.4.S.615.L.25]

Estonian Security Police
IV Division
14 May, 1942

               To the Police Inspector at Nõmme

Concerns:   Mirjam, Siima and David  P l i n e r's moveable property.
Reference:  German Security Police, correspondence April 20, 1942 Tgb.
IV Bu/A
                                                  Nr. 9/42 2592

Appendices: 1 page

I request the property of Mirjam, Siima, and David  P l i n e r which is
located in Tallin-Nõmme, Nurm St. 39-7 in Elisabeth Letinkov's apartment
and which was  inventoried by constable Artur Braun on March 28, 1942,
in accordance with the list in the dossier of the German Security
Police April 20, 1942, Tgb. IV - Bu/nr. 9/42, 2592, of which a copy is
included.

                                            [signed: EsM]
                                          Director of the Division

                                                            Fa. M
                                                       Senior assistant
**********************************

Another thing that we learn from these documents is that the
characterization of Estonia as 'judenfrei' at the Wannsee Conference
(January 20, 1942) was overoptimistic.



Here is a partial list some of the 929 registered deaths of Estonian
Jews killed by the Nazis in 1941 and 1942 whose dossiers are stored at
the Estonian State Archives:

Source: Eugenia Gurin-Loov 1994, _Eest juutide katastroof 1941_, pg.
178 ff.

001. Abel, Lina
002. Abel, Maks
003. Abeshaus, Schliom
004. Abraham, Peeter
005. Abraham, Movsche...
...
100. Braschansky, Amnon
101. Brauns, Reisa
102. Brauns, Villi
103. Brekel, Geile
104. Brenner, Lea
105. Brenner, Rochele-Riva...
...
111. Brodsky, Heinrich
...
200. Frischer, Abram
201. Fukchs, Itshok
202. Fukchs, Ovsei-Leo
203. Fukchs, Eta
204. Gadovsky. Berhard-Benzion
205. Gassmann, Sonja...
...
222. Ginsberg, Joseph
...
300. Haitov, Isaak
301. Haitov, Jetti
302. Haitov, Jossel
303. Haitos, Lea
304. Haitov, Leopold
305. Haitov, Moische...
...
333. Hirschborn, Dora
...
400. Judelovitsch, Boris
401. Judelovitsch, Hirsch
402. Judelovitsch, Jette
403. Judelovitsch, Rebekka
404. Judelovitsch, Sara
405. Judelovitsch, Scheine...
...
444. Klein, Etel...
...
500. Kurtmann Ester
501. Kurtmann Hersch
502. Kurtmann Mirjam
503. Kurtmann Anna
504. Kurtmann Dvoira
505. Kurtmann Feige-Zira...
...
555. Lipelis, Leib...
...
600. Michalovsky, Fanny
601. Michelson, Dina
602. Michelson, Dorit
603. Michelson, Hasche
604. Michalovsky, Meier
605. Michalovsky, Adolf...
...
666. Pavlovski, Sara...
...
688. Pliner, David      M     27.11.1934     Tallinn
689. Pliner, Mirjam     F     15.08.1927     Tallinn
690. Pliner, Sima       F     27.11.1934     Tallinn
691. Pliner, Jüri       M     23.05.1898     Tallinn
...
700. Rattenberg, Hanna
701. Rattenberg, Lea
702. Rattenberg, Leiser
703. Rattenberg, Rachil
704. Ratut, Salmen
705. Ratut, Haim...
...
777. Schats, Isak...
...
800. Schuras, Ida
801. Schuras, Moses
802. Schuras, Wulf
803. Schürer von, Waldheim
804. Seberstein, Joseph
805. Seligson, Gite...
...
888. Vald, Movscha...
...
900. Vilenski, Michel
901. Vilenski, Rachil
902. Vilenski, Stüsia
903. Vollman, Lia
904. Vollman, Ruvim
905. Vseviov, David...
...
928. Zlatkin, Rohhe-Leja
929. Zlatkin, Vulf

Of these, 101 were, like the Pliner children (688-690), children born
between 1923 and 1941.

> 
> 
> 
> > That's how you start to do research. The copied text posted above
> > gives names and dates that can be followed up in specialist books and
> > journals devoted to the WW II history of Finland, Bulgaria, and
> > Hungary. You can dismiss everything above as fairy tales, or you can
> > hit the books and check out the veracity - or lack thereof - of the
> > information given above. In any case, the abundance of information
> > given scotches your claim that there is "no evidence" for the
> > Holocaust.
> 
> This is all movements of people etc. It is very interesting and certainly
> prooves that the Nazis were
> engaged in deportations and general 'harsh treatment'.

Certainly the information on Hungary shows that treatment of Jews was
being used by the Nazis as an instrument of policy, and that there, as
alswhere, a conflict arose between the exterminationists (Hitler
complaining personally to the Hungarian authorities that they weren't
doing enough to "solve" the Jewish problem in their country, and the
economists, the Hungarian officials that argued that liquidating 6% of
the population would be economic insanity and detrimental to the German
war effort. Neither was Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg risking his
life to spare Hungarian Jews mere "harsh treatment".


> But I'm really interested in actual habius corpus stuff. Forensics etc. If
> you can find me anything more like the Ukraine stuff I'd be obliged.

You've read about the Belzec excavations?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:37 EDT 2001
Article: 908013 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:18:09 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 14
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In article <59b8bc96.0106071249.55f23859@posting.google.com>,
ShrikeBack  wrote:

> Otherwise you are condoning a new
> injustice, and the new injustice will not be forgotten by its
> sufferers any sooner than the old one was.

Okay. It seems that you are admitting that an injustice was done, and
that claims for some type of compensation are justified. What do you
suggest be done? You imply that white males would not forget such an
injustice, why should anybody else?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:37 EDT 2001
Article: 908014 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Afroamericans in Ancient Egypt!
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:14:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
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In article , efkent 
wrote:

> Nonsense, African Americans are from Central West Africa and had little
> contact with Upper Egypt, or Middle Egypt. Upper Egypt being Nubians or
> Kush. In fact the first animal of Central West Africa that was first
> encountered in Greek or Roman annals was the elephant and this is connected
> with Hannibal's expeditions against the Romans around 410 BC. So look to
> present day Libya for contact between Central West African peoples and North
> African peoples. Ethiopians are more connected with what we call Arabia, and
> Pakistan-India.

Most African Americans are indeed from Central West Africa, but the
peoples of Central West Africa are the product of a long history, which
included migrations from East Africa, mosty clearly evidenced by study
of the spread of the Bantu-speaking peoples (see e.g. L. Luca
Cavalli-Sforza. _The History and Geography of Human Genes_. Princeton
NJ. 1994. pg. 158 ff, particularly sections 3.3.b. and  3.4). More
central to the issue is the fact that all people with visible African
ancestry are generally regarded as "black" or "African American" in the
United States, and this includes the considerable number of African
Americans with Ethiopian bankground.

Most white Americans are of English, Irish, Scoth-Irish, German, or
Scandinavian origin. That does not stop them from claiming Ancient
Greece and Rome as part of their collective "racial heritage". If such
a claim is justified, than African-Americans certainly have as much
justification to claim the ancient civilizations of Egypt and Nubia,
which evolved out of African stone-age cultures and used languages of
African origin to be part of their collective "racial heritage".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:38 EDT 2001
Article: 908030 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations Fails
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:50:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4d338ce1.0106071955.5a272a8d@posting.google.com>, Andrew
 wrote:


> > If this had happened to you and assuming that all records of your
> > arrest, of the confiscation of your family home and property, and of
> > the killing of your family had been preserved and uncontested:
> > 
> > 1. Would you feel entitled to some compensation?
> > 2. If so, how much, from whom, and under what terms?
> > 3. Would you bear a long-standing grudge for the country that had
> > ruined your life?

> 
> For the record, I'm on your side on this one.  I suppose, in hindsight
> that I was a little blunt when I posed the question, because it sounds
> like I put you on the defensive.  Sorry about that.
> 
> Indeed, those who suffered through the Holocaust are entitled to some
> kind of compensation (how exactly you'd put a dollar value on that is
> a different matter, and one that I am ill-equipped to debate).  My
> question was one of curiosity, not of accusation.  As you probably
> know, I'm new to this ng, and am trying to obtain as much information
> as I possibly can about this "phenomenon" of Holocaust revisionism.
> 
> Now, to answer your questions, at least to the best of my abilities:
> 
> 1.  Absolutely.
> 
> 2.  As I mentioned before, I'm not well equipped to answer that.  I
> have no training in law, and indeed, considering the breadth of the
> tragedy we're dealing with, it may well be impossible to put a dollar
> value to it.
> 
> 3.  A simple analogy: let's assume, for the sake of argument that I am
> married with a young child (in reality, I have neither).  Now suppose
> one day my neighbour comes over to my home brutally murders my wife
> and child and then kills himself.  Let's suppose, also that the
> evidence is pretty clear that he acted alone and that he's responsible
> for the three dead people in my living room (it's an open and shut
> case).  Now let's suppose that he has a son.  I could not morally hold
> his son responsible for the actions of the father.  The Holocaust was
> by a large margin the most horrible crime ever comitted against
> humanity, but it was not comitted by Germany today, it was comitted by
> the Nazis five decades ago.  Don't misinterpret this.  I'm not trying
> to trivialize the Holocaust here.  Indeed it is a period of our
> history that we should endeavour never to forget, lest we suffer a
> repetition thereof.  However, to hold a grudge against a country now
> because of crimes comitted by those who ruled before them goes against
> everything I believe in.  That being said, it is also the job of the
> government to take responsibility for crimes which it, or another
> administration comitted in the past.  So summing up my (somewhat
> verbose) answer, yes it is the responsibility of the German Government
> today to pay out reparations to those persecuted during the Holocaust,
> but Germany today has no moral responsibility for those actions.

Thanks for your thoughtful answers.

I have some problems with your answer 3. Hitler committed suicide and
the Nazi government was tried and convicted of crimes against humanity.
The tens of millions of Germans (and Austrians) who blindly followed
the orders issued by the Nazi government and trashed an entire
continent were, for the most part, allowed to live in peace and go on
with their lives. German companies who profitted from slave labor
during WW II were, until recently, not approached by the hundreds of
thousands of surviving former slave laborers in Eastern Europe
concerning the issue of possible compensation due to the political
division of Europe which only ended in 1991.

What moral responsibility do the children and grandchildren of the
Nazis bear for the tragic events of 1933 to 1945, particularly those of
1939 to 1945? What kind of a debt do the people of a country inherit
that, two generations ago, attacked or occupied more than a dozen
countries, and took upon itself the task of killing all of the people
of certain ethnicities and confiscating all of their property and
assets for itself? These are difficult questions and I have no ready
answers. But I don't buy the argument that the children and
grandchildren of people who were involved in such crimes escape all
*moral* responsibility to make amends. Germany had to start from
scratch in 1945, but it was the recipient of generous Marshall Aid to
help it emerge from the ashes. It now has one of the best production
plants, an excellent and state-of-the-art infrastructure, and one of
the highest living standards in Europe. It has the collective
responsibility to compensate the surviving victims of its
continent-wide campaign of ethnic cleansing, enslavement, and pillage.

What is so easily forgotten about the Holocaust is that 95% of the
victims were non-Germans who had nothing whatsoever to do with Germany
and Germany's problems, real or imaginary, with Jews, Gypsies, people
of mixed or "inferior" race, Jehovah's Witnesses, Social-Democrats, and
Communists. If you go on a rampage, killing and stealing, and then kill
yourself, why should all responsibility for what you have done rest
with your victims if your children and grandchildren have inherited
much of the loot which you stole?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:38 EDT 2001
Article: 908032 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:14:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , JRWolf
 wrote:

> Eugene,
> 
> Your words might be given more credence if they weren't tinged by such
> ridiculous statements as "because the whites did not have the ...physical
> stamina to do what it took..". 

Slavery only became a big business in the American South, and one
reason for this is that the muscular, dark skinned West Africans were
physically better suited for working long hours in the hot sun than
more slightly built, paler skinned Europeans who were not used to such
a climate.

> There were far more whites doing extremely
> strenuous physical labor than there were persons who owned slaves.  Your
> revisionist rhetoric seems to attempt to convince people that all whites who
> came to this country were privileged, rich, lazy, and slave owners.

Not at all. I think I have a realistic idea of the amount of work
people of all ethnicites and races had to put in to claim, keep, and
clear the land.


> Guess again.  All of my white ancestors came here with nothing.  They never
> owned slaves.  The German and Norwegian ancestors (step-family actually)
> became farmers in Wisconsin (and they still are).  Some of the Scots were
> farmers (Missouri), others were doctors (Utah).  The Dutch became farmers in
> Western Canada (they still are).  There was no privileged class in my family
> and they have always honored the value of a hard days work.  "Lack of
> physical stamina"?  ROFL!  Worked overtime, weekends, and holidays?  Sounds
> exactly like the farm life I knew so well.

This is not the point. Wisconsin and parts of Missouri have climates
not unlike what your European ancestors were coming from. Louisiana,
Alabama, Mississiippi, etc. are semi-tropical and present working
conditions which are more tolerable and allow more work to be done by a
person from a semi-tropical environment with skin that is not damaged
by long exposure to sunlight than would be the case for a person from a
more northerly climate, pale skin, and a thick covering of hair on his
head. It is well known that white smallholders were not particularly
successful in the southern states, one reason for this was the simple
fact that they had physical difficulty coping with the non-European
type climate. For the same reasons European colonialists in Kenya,
Ghana, Zimbabwe, etc. preferred to have African hired labor do the
field work rather than themselves do back-breaking work in the hot,
tropical, and, for them, dangerous sun. 

Europeans living in tropical climates often need sun block lotions,
air-conditioners, and protective clothing before they can function to
full capacity. The locals do not need them because their bodies are
physically better adapted to the climate. Differences in the physical
ability to deal with different climactic conditions is one of the
consequences of natural selection and it is the most obvious source of
the human variation underlying popular groupings into "races". The long
limbs, relatively short trunk, melanin-rich skin, abundant sweat
glands, and frizzy hair of the "typical" Saharan African are all part
of a system enabling the body to dissipate heat, in the same manner as
the short limbs, longer, rounder, and fattier trunk, light skin, and
thick hair of the "typical" Eskimo all work together to retain it.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:38 EDT 2001
Article: 908042 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.native,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Ludicrous Case For White Reparations
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:47:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B207E51.9331578C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Floyd Davidson wrote:

> > >
> > >Of course it's asinine, because the black family, whatever THAT is,
> > >would take the money, leave the country ...  then return to the US.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> That will not be possible. You will recall my saying that any black persons
> accepting the
> sum would be obliged to renounce their American citizenship.
> 
> =====================================================

That's only one of many models. Your national socialist friends m,ight
support a scheme like this, but most Americans of whatever ethnicity
would understand the payments as rightful compensation for generations
of unpaid work performed by the ancestors of the recipients.

As Hitler learned, you can't just revoke the citizenship of a segment
of your population, kick them out, and assume that some other country
will take them. Consider how Americans reacted when Cuba opened its
jails and mental institutions a few years ago and dumped their problems
on Florida.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:39 EDT 2001
Article: 908058 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:19:53 +0300
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In article ,
waybackjack  wrote:

> vanguard@antisocial.com (Daedra Morrighan) wrote in message 
>  
> > You point out a too-often neglected fact, Jenn. 
> 
> Instead of taking gullible whites on a guilt trip, and encouraging
> black self-pity, you would better serve the black community by
> teaching black youth the meaning of "morality" and "personal
> responsibility" and convincing them that they can succeed via
> traditional routes, e.g., the classroom.
> 

Good point, but not without problems. 

a. Blacks were not the only chattel slaves, nor do all American blacks
have a slave background. Not all black youths lack an understanding of
"morality" or "personal responsibility", neither are all of those
suffering from such lacks necessarily black.

b. All of American society, descendants of former slaves included, has
benefitted directly or indirectly from the billions of hours of
uncompensated labor put in by slaves from the time the institution was
first tolerated on North American soil during the 1620s until its
official abolition in 1863, and its practical abolition in 1865.

c. Just as all of American society has benefitted from this
unprecendented transfer of wealth, it has also suffered from not
wanting to exploit the full human potential of the descendants of
slaves, and for allowing conditions to develop which have resulted in a
certain segment of those descendants becoming sociopaths or going
through a sociopathetic stage of life.

d. There is no reason for American whites or anyone else to go on a
guilt-trip about this: anyone familiar with American history knows the
benefits and costs of slavery as a defining element of the American
experience.

e. Thus setting up a special _fund_ with voluntary contributions from
individuals and corporations of good will who would like to demonstrate
their desire to commemorate the human and financial price slaves of
whatever enthnicty were forced to make building Colonial American and
the United States by contributing to the upgrading American primary and
secondary schools, and establishing a kind of bonus system to reward
and encourage particularly effective teachers in difficult teaching
environments, would be the best way to deal with the legacy of slavery.

f. Many American corporate and family fortunes gathered their starting
capital by appropriating for themselves in full the usufructs of slave
labor, as indeed was customary and legal at the time. Making this as
spect of history better known and contributing what they consider a
fair amount to the fund in the light of today's moral climate would be
both good PR and an important lesson in one of the more unpleasant
sides of American history.

g. Responsible people, if they were to receive a legacy for the slave
labor done by their ancestors, would invest most of it in improving the
lot of the next generation, anyway, so my suggestion cuts out a
middleman.

h. Since the benefits and negative legacy of slavery have effected all
Americans, no matter what their race or ethnicity, my proposal that the
reparations fund be invested _solely_ in upgrading the prerequisites
for effective primary and secondary education nationwide would not
single out any specific group as sponsors or beficiaries. Everyone
would benefit, a serious, non-divisive attempt to deal with the legacy
of slavery would have been made, and the investment would pay dividends
over several generations.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:39 EDT 2001
Article: 908085 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations Fails
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:08:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4d338ce1.0106080656.63b03bc7@posting.google.com>, Andrew
 wrote:

>
> > What is so easily forgotten about the Holocaust is that 95% of the
> > victims were non-Germans who had nothing whatsoever to do with Germany
> > and Germany's problems, real or imaginary, with Jews, Gypsies, people
> > of mixed or "inferior" race, Jehovah's Witnesses, Social-Democrats, and
> > Communists. If you go on a rampage, killing and stealing, and then kill
> > yourself, why should all responsibility for what you have done rest
> > with your victims if your children and grandchildren have inherited
> > much of the loot which you stole?

> I admit that I hadn't thought of it from that angle, however it does
> not really change my answer.  You'll receive no argument whatsoever
> from me that Germany has a financial responsibility to those who were
> persecuted during the Holocaust.  I did not interpret the question to
> be asking this, however.  In my mind, a grudge is a question of
> morality as opposed to economics.  Should Germany pay?  Again,
> absolutely.  Would I hold the Holocaust against them?  No.  In my
> mind, the responsibility for the crime itself rests not on the
> children, grandchildren or the victims, but the perpetrators. 

Having lived in Germany for nearly a year during the time when the
first post-war generation was entering adulthood, I can assure you that
it was the moral issue, not the financial one, which was at the center
of the debate among young people back in the mid 1960s. The German word
for "reparation" is "Wiedergutmachung", literally "again-good-making",
it doesn't only imply financial compensation, and those young people
understood all too well that the legacy they had inherited was far more
than a financial debt. German tourists were still being shunned or even
spit upon from Greece to Norway because all of these countries had
literally been raped by Germany. The Nazis had invaded, set up shop,
and arrogantly assumed for themselves the right to remake their
societies along Nazi lines, killing or enslaving those people that they
didn't like. As you might know, more than half - 762 - of Norway's
small pre-war Jewish population of 1300, and almost all - 60,000 out of
69,000 of Greece's pre-war Jewish population with roots dating back
more than 2000 years, were stripped of their Norwegian or Greek
citizenship and dispossessed of all property and assets _by the Nazis_,
and then shipped off to Auschwitz, where most of them perished, either
exterminated on arrival or brutalized by slave labor. The survivors,
lost everything they had, including their families, relatives, homes,
property, and, in many cases, their physical and mental health.

The Holocaust involved between 12,000,0000 and 14,000,000 people in
more than 15 countries, all of them victims of German arrogance and
brutality. The post-war generations of Germans that I have known - I
maintain close contacts with Germany and work regularly with German
young people - did not and do not find the financial responsibility of
paying reparations to Holocaust victims anything nearly as difficult a
buden to bear as trying to come to terms with what was done in the name
of Germany, on the one hand, and with their understandable pride in
being Germans, on the other. 

Even if it is no longer difficult to be proud of being German, this
pride still exacts a psychological toll, since it means knowing that
you are and probably always will be associated with the horrible deeds
committed by the preceding two or three generations of Germans, people
that you have to love and respect, because they are your parents,
grandparents, relatives, teachers, and compatriots, but also people
that you have to psychologically distance yourself from for having
committed such barbaric acts against fellow human beings,
systematically and cold-bloodedly shooting, gassing, starving, and
working to death millions of men, women, children and babies in
countries near and far for the "crime" of being what they were or
thinking what they thought.

> However, as you said, Germany now has one of the highest living
> standards Europe, and I agree that one of the contributing factors to
> that high standard was the Holocaust.  As such, they have a financial
> responsibility, not a moral one.  If the children and grandchildren of
> those who profited from the Holocaust are wealthy today, that is not
> something which we should blame them for any more than we should blame
> a child who is born blind or deaf.  However, the money they inherited
> should go, at least in part to those persecuted during the Holocaust,
> simply because the money is not theirs.  That is, however the extent
> of their responsibility for those crimes.  The debt is inherited, but
> the crime is not.

As you said in a previous posting, these things cannot be given a
dollar value. I can assure you that many Germans born after the war
feel a strong _moral_ responsibility to do anything they can to enhance
the reputation of Germany in the world, to demonstrate to the world
that Germany went berserk between 1933 and 1945, and, despite what
Goldhagen argues so convincingly in _Hitler's Willing Executioners_,
the Holocaust is not the logical consequence of certain deeply
ingrained and homicidal aspects of German or even European [cf.
colonialism, communism, and chattel slavery] culture. 

What is really sad, is that many of the young people in former East
Germany have never really given the issue of the Holocaust any serious
thought, there were no de-Nazification programs there during the 1950s
and 60s, and certain elements there have started to behave towards
foreigners and Jews in precisely the same way the Nazis did. You do
know that during the past few years several foreigners in former East
Germany have been brutally attacked and even murdered by German
neo-Nazis for the "crime" of being or looking foreign, or for speaking
some language other than German in public.

These are not just issues of the pocketbook. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:39 EDT 2001
Article: 908123 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations Fails
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:25:30 +0300
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In article <4d338ce1.0106080656.63b03bc7@posting.google.com>, Andrew
 wrote:

> In my
> mind, the responsibility for the crime itself rests not on the
> children, grandchildren or the victims, but the perpetrators. 

What if the crime is exceedinglt extraordinary?

Suppose that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, had, in
addition to causing hundreds of thousands of Japanese to be born with
debilitating and severe congenital birth defects, had also had caused
more pollution in the area than projected and, in the longer term,
resulted in hundreds of thousands of Koreans, Chinese, and Russians in
the area also being born with congenital birth defects traceable to the
effects of the blasts. Even without this horror show, do you think that
Americans, now mostly born after the blast, have any moral obligation
towards Japanese people, also born after the blast, whose lives have
been severely affected as a consequence?

This is not just an idle question. The fallout from the Chernobyl
accident polluted the atmosphere of the entire Northern Hemisphere, and
there is no question that many of the birth defects in people, flora,
and fauna that have plagued Belarus and the northern part of Ukraine
are consequences of this blast. The USSR, in which country the plant
was when the blast occurs, no longer exists. What is your reading on
reponsibility and liability?

If human activities produce catastrophes of this magnitude, is all
forgiven if the perpetrators kill themselves or vanish into the
woodwork?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:39 EDT 2001
Article: 908140 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
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In article <3B20ED03.F7A23F38@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The ability to talk extremely well is no  guaratee against a penchant for
> occasionally talking nonsense. In arguing a case for white-to-black
> "reparations"  Eugene is surely talking nonsense, but he is doing it very
> well.


I think I made it explicitly clear that I was not talking about
white-to-black "reparations". Insofar as there are reparations to be
paid, it is a matter of restitution for slavery. There were white
slaves and black slave owners, and any plan to pay restitution for the
legacy of slavery must take this into account.

In the following I will be focusing on black slavery, because that is
the issue that Richard focuses on and it is, admittedly, the central
one. Slavery itself was a complex institution which has harmed and, in
a perverse, long-term way, benefitted Americans of both races. This
point will also be touched upon at the end of this posting.

> 
> The presence of the Negro in our land  for nearly 400 years has NOT been a
> "blessing" for us; it has been an absolutely pure, unmitigated curse.
> America is NOT a better country today because of that presence; it would
> have been a vastly better country without it.
> 
> (1) The case for reparations is based on the notion that America has
> "benefitted from the "unpaid" labour of slaves. I've already said it at
> least three times but sometimes unwanted notions are   gotten across only
> by continued pounding in. The fact that slaves did not receive money wages
> does not mean that their labour was without cost. Their owners had to feed,
> house, and clothe them and do so to a standard that would maintain their
> health and fitness. Slaves were an investment and a very expensive one.
> Then, when doctors had to be called, who do you think paid for them?

Your argument, which is not an argument, holds for prisoners as well. 

In a market economy you don't keep slaves if the practice is not
profitable. Feeding, clothing, and doctoring them was part of the
overhead, just as providing uniforms, subsidized meals, and medical
plans are part of the overhead a modern employer has to shoulder. The
usufructs of slave labor are what is left _after_ the overhead has been
covered, and these were appropriated _in toto_ by slave owners. It's as
though you have a police force, pay for their uniforms, subsidized
meals, and medical plans, but refuse to pay them a red cent in monetary
compensation for the work they do.

Good employees are an investment, and good employers are willing to
shoulder a considerable amount of overhead in the form of benefits and
perks such as the above to keep them. They do not, howver, refuse to
pay them a salary.

> 
> (2) The reparations thesis goes on from there to build its case by sayng
> that the excess wealth generated by "unpaid" slave labour was used in ways
> that somehow "benefitted" future  generations. To a very small degree this
> may be true;  for the most part, it is not. The plantation grandees did not
> invest their money in wage-generating and tax-generating industry. For the
> most part, they blew it on acquiring more land, building statlier mansions,
> buying fine horses and carriages, buying jewelry for their womenfolk both
> legal and clandestine.

Which means that their money changed hands and was not stored in a sock
under the bed. If they didn't invest their money in such industry, some
of the people who sold them the stuff they blew their money on did. The
various forms of taxation that worked back then also ensured that the
government got its cut as well. The proceeds of slavery might not have
directly benefitted the slave ownber, but insofar as they were spent on
goods and services, they benefitted the American (or CSA) economy as a
hole.

> 
> (3) The strongest argument against slavery was not its effect on black
> people but its effect in impoverishing large classes of white people,
> consigning them to the status of "po' white trash." Lincoln's family were
> an instance of this, and that is why he couldn't wait to distance himself
> from them and their legacy. 

Lincoln was the product Illinois, a state which, if memory serves me
correctly, was incorporated in 1818 as a state where slavery was
forbidden. The yong Lincoln, then all of 9 years old, would have had to
live with the rectifications caused by the recent abolition of slavery,
if it ever was widespread in frontier Illinois, but hardly with the
institution itself.

The "po' white trash" phenomenon is, as I see it, only partially a
function of slavery. Some of the wilder elements in the hills of
western Arkansas and Missouri, the "Hillbillies", owe their
impoverished state to having "gone ape" and liked it, with a long
history of inbreeding to perpetuate the genes and the lifestyle. The
first generations of Europeans to settle in the subtropical forests and
swamps of Georgia, Alabama, Missippi, Arkansas, and Louisiana, on the
other hand, simply lacked the physical stamina and resistance to
diseases such as malaria to work these semi-tropical lands effectively.
West African slave labor was the short-term solution. Those who bought
slaves used to working in such climates thrived and could built up
assets, those who didn't became subsistence farmers who were unable to
compete with Africans until they had built up a tolerance to the heat
and diseases, and modified their lifestyle and diet accordingly.

> Tell me: just how has the present generation of
> America  "benefitted" from this legacy of the marginalization  of  large
> classes of white people?

The most obvious answer, which will blow your stack, is by
demonstrating that even the grandchild of "po' white trash" can be a
two-term president :-)

> 
> (4) Tell me: just how has the present generation "benefitted" fram the
> legacy  of a  4-year civil war that resulted in 600,000 deaths (or
> casualties) and created a legacy of sectional hatred that has not died to
> this day.

Tell me a large country that has not had such periods of instability in
its past. On  a grassroots level Bavarians have a visceral antipathy
towards Prussians, which is reciprocated in kind, for much the same
reasons, and we all know about the resentments between the Ossis and
Wessis in reunited Germany. The Civil War was a much about slavery as
it was about the conflicting economic interests of the industrializing,
protectionist North and the agricultural, free-trading South.

 
> (5) Eugene would have us believe that, in the black collective, lies an
> enormous pool of untapped talent just crying for a chanc to shower its
> "benefits" on America. There are several replies to that, any single one
> sufficient.
> 
> (a)  The amounts we have invested in precisely that purpose already run
> into trillions.  With what result?

Two thirds of black Americans are now in the middle class.

> 
> (b) The WASPS, Jews, Germans, and Irish who benefitted America with their
> talents did not do so because they were GIVEN a chance; they did so because
> they MADE their chance.

Black Americans were systematically denied the opportunity to make that
chance from 1865 until the enactment of civil rights legislation in
1965. When the black Americans, unable to obtain bank loans or capital,
tried to create their own stock market in Tulsa in 1921, it was burned
down and a massive pogrom-like race riot ensued. When a black
scientist, G. W. Carver, was invited to the White House to receive an
award, he had to use the back door and the freight elevator. When a
world-acclaimed black contralto, Marion Anderson, "the voice of the
century", wanted to give a concert at Constitution Hall after a
triumphal tour of Europe, the DAR refused to allow such a desecration
and she had to sing on the White House steps, kindly provided by
Eleanor Roosevelt. Black people registering to vote and thus acquire
some local political power in areas in which they were the majority
were given humiliating literacy tests which not even a university
professor could pass [Sample: "Write an interpretation of section XX of
the Alabama State Constitution". No matter what the applicant wrote, the
registrar claimed that he/she had "misunderstood" the section and was
thus illiterate"] or turned away, often with physical violence. A man
who chased prospective black customers out of his diner wielding an ax
in violation of local and federal laws, Lester Maddox, was elected
governor of Georgia. When a black stundent tried to take the place he
had been rightfully admitted to at the University of Alabama, the
governer stood at the door and called out the national guard to say it
wasn't going to happen. When black workers in Montgomery Alabama in
1956 who had refused to ride on buses that charged them the same fare
as whites, but forced them to stand so that whites could sit protested
by walking to work, they were fined by the local police for
"loitering". If they had a car and drove their neighbors to work, they
were fined for "operating illegal taxis". Dozens of blacks, trying to
"make their chance" were systematically harassed, shot at, lynched, and
killed during the Civil Rights struggle of the late 1950s and 60s,
etc., etc., etc. No other ethnic group in America except the Indians,
now reduced to a pathetic shadow of their former selves, has had to put
up with indignities of this type for so long except black Americans,
yet, despite it all, they have still managed to achieve the "American
dream". So don't talk to me about not having made an honest effort to
MAKE a chance.
 
> (c) America is NOT hurting from a "shortage" of engineers, software people,
> lawyers, invesment bankers, MBAs, etc. If anything, we have far too many of
> all of them. Do their efforts "benefit" the ordinary people of the country?
> THose efforts generate comfortable salaries for themselves and profits for
> their employers, but that's about it.

If they are receiving comfortable salaries for themselves and profits
for their employers, it is still a seller's market, unlike the market
for radio comedians, cotton gin operators, botleggers, genuine Whigs,
bagpipe players, or Etruscanists.

> 
> (d) What enables a relatively few to rise to positions of comfort and
> importance? The evidence we have suggests that certain qualities innate to
> the individual are necessary. Available. evidence also makes clear that no
> amount of "head-start" programmes an impart this.

What enables people of modest gifts and capablities, such as the
present American president, to rise to positions of comfort and
importance? The evidence we have suggests that certain qualities innate
to the individual are necessary. These include connections, a WASPy
name, connections, a family with "old money", connections, and a staff
that keeps him from putting his foot in his mouth too often. Having a
brother who is governor of Florida, where the presidency was decided by
a few hundred votes doesn't hurt, either. Neither does it matter that
his grades were at the "gentleman's C" level in college, that he has
but five years of political experience, before which his previous
administrative experience required daddy to bail out the oil company he
was managing, or that he has at least one known conviction for DIU
behind him. Available evidence also makes clear that no amount of
"head-start" programmes can impart these qualities.

P.S. I worked the summer of 1965 as a Project Headstart teacher in
Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. We opened up kids' eyes and really made a
difference.

> 
> (6) When Eugene claims that America has "benefitted" from unpaid black
> slave labour, has he factored in the enormous social costs of the aditional
> law enforcement and custodial facilities which the presence of the Negro
> has forced on us?
> 

Yes. The surly, aggressive American black is a creation of American
culture, specifically of the century of thwarted ambitions, crushed
hopes, public humiliation, and general lawless that followed slavery,
and as such, American culture has to assume responsibility for what it
has created. 

On the brighter side, slavery allowed for the amassment of corporate
and family fortunes that otherwise would not have been amassed, and in
the long run these have contributed to American prosperity, which
benefits everyone. On a different level, the best known, most
distinctive, and certainly most profit-generating products of
specifially American culture are rock music, jazz, and blues, all of
them direct offshoots of the subculture generated by slavery and the
descendants of slaves. The amount of income generated by the American
music industry worldwide is orders of magnitude larger than the social
and custodial costs of locking up Negro punks, for which law-abiding
American blacks, the overwhelming majority, also shoulder a tax burden.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:40 EDT 2001
Article: 908147 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: 36 Questions About the Holocaust -- Wiesenthal 19-29
Supersedes: <080620011927357344%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:18:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <73fedc95.0106080718.26c4961b@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

> Johann Sebastian Bot  wrote in message
> news:...
> > 36 Questions About the Holocaust
> > Simon Wiesenthal Center
> > 
> > 36 Questions About the Holocaust
> > 
> > 
> > 19. Did the people of occupied Europe know about Nazi plans for the Jews?
> > What was their attitude? Did they cooperate with the Nazis against the
> > Jews? 
>  
> 
>      Yes.  The Germans made it clear from the beginning Jews were to be 
> evacuated from the territories and sent farther east.  Most of the local 
> population in the occupied territories resented the preferential treatment
> Jews received under the Bolsheviks and hoped the Germans would free them
> from the yoke of communism.

Tell me, how did the people of Poland, Bohemia and Moravia, Slovakia,
Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Italy, France, Belgium,
the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, or Denmark, all of which were
occupied by or in deep cooperation with the Nazis, think that they were
under the yoke of communism? Communist governments in Eastern Europe
were only established _after_ the war, and the people in the Western
countries mentioned above were never seriously threatened by communism.

The only countries for which you say bears even an inkling of truth are
Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, which were under Soviet occupation
effectively dating back to June, 1940 when Germany attacked on June 22,
1941. The other peoples of the USSR, such as the Russians, Ukrainians,
and Belarussians were indeed under the yoke of communism, but Jews had
long before been purged from positions of authority within the
communist governments, led by a Georgian, Josif Stalin (né
Dzhugashvili) which ruled over them.

> > 20. Did the Allies and the people in the Free World know about the events
> > going on in Europe? 
> 
> 
>      Yes and no.  The Allied leaders knew of the German plans to expel all 
> Jews from German held territory, but the common people of the world were told
> the Jews were being killed. The propaganda was designed to generate hatred
> of Germans throughout the general population and gain support for Allied
> intentions to invade and take over Germany. The false propaganda was 
> very effective and continues to be repeated even today.

Crap. The BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow reported on the very real
massacre by the Nazis of 12,000 Jews in Riga in the evening that it
occurred, November 30, 1941. Escapees from concentration camps and
death camps such as Rudolf Vrba had informed the world of what was
goping on by the spring of 1944. Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg
would not have risked, and eventually sacrificed his life to issue safe
passage permits to Hungarian Jews if, by the summer of 1944, diplomatic
channels and the world at large would have been aware of what was going
on at Auschwitz-Birkenau.




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:40 EDT 2001
Article: 908175 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:35:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B212545.D8427359@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> 
> > Feeding, clothing, and doctoring them was part of the
> > overhead, just as providing uniforms, subsidized meals, and medical
> > plans are part of the overhead a modern employer has to shoulder. The
> > usufructs of slave labor are what is left _after_ the overhead has been
> > covered, and these were appropriated _in toto_ by slave owners. It's as
> > though you have a police force, pay for their uniforms, subsidized
> > meals, and medical plans, but refuse to pay them a red cent in monetary
> > compensation for the work they do.
> 
> ==============================
> Phillips
> 
> I cannot see what bearing, if any, this has on the specious claim that slave
> labour was without cost.
> 
> ================================

I did not claim that it was without cost. I said that the services
provided to slaves - food, clothing, accommodation, medical care - fell
within the penumbra of overhead. Slave owners paid the overhead, as any
employer of a specialist work force has to do, but they did not pay any
compensation. The fact that they had money to spend on jewelry for
their public and priavte lady friends, sending their sons to England
for an education, expanding their estates, gambling, and purchasing
more slaves indicates that they were dividing the usufructs of the
labor done by the slaves _after overhead had been paid_ on a "0% for
you, 100% for me" basis. This is wrong, and you know it.


> > Good employees are an investment, and good employers are willing to
> > shoulder a considerable amount of overhead in the form of benefits and
> > perks such as the above to keep them. They do not, howver, refuse to
> > pay them a salary.
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> But they are more than wiling to pack up and move to Mexico where the pay is
> one-tenth as much and benefits are nil.
> 
> =============================================

More realistically one fourth and some; Mexico has a GDP of approx.
$8,000, that of the US is approx. $32,000. If the legal possibility of
moving the production process to a low-wage area and then importing the
products there produced to a high wage area exists, any company engaged
in commerce, as opposed to charity, would be foolish not to see how it
could rationalize its operations by exploiting th opportunity.

> >
> > Which means that their money changed hands and was not stored in a sock
> > under the bed. If they didn't invest their money in such industry, some
> > of the people who sold them the stuff they blew their money on did. The
> > various forms of taxation that worked back then also ensured that the
> > government got its cut as well.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Which means that instead of 25% or 50% of the money got invested for
> socially-useful purposes, maybe 3% did. Not a good tradeoff. I oppso the
> system
> of grandeeism  of the ante-bellum South for the same reason I am against the
> system of latifundia of Mexico, southern Itaaly and Francoist Spain.
> 
> =======================================

We agree in spirit, but not on the figures. Money squandered by person
A, is a windfall for person B which he, if wise, will _not_ squander.
If, however, he does, it will be a windfall for person C which he, if
wise, will _not_squander,...

> >
> > Lincoln was the product Illinois, a state where, if memory serves me
> > correctly, incorporated in 1818 as a state where slavery was forbidden.
> > the yong Lincoln, then all of 9 years old, would have had to live with
> > the rectifications caused by the recent abolition of slavery, but
> > hardly with the institution itself.
> 
> ===============================
> Phillips
> 
> Had your memory served you better, you would have known that, at the time of
> Lincoln's birth, the family was living in Kentucky.
> 
> =====================================

Thanks. My "Life of Lincoln" lore dates back almost 50 years. Since I
really don't remember, and am not in the mood to delve into the issue,
would you be kind enough briefly to give your input on the manner in
which slavery impacted the life of the young Lincoln. Thank you.

> > The "po' white trash" phenomenon is, as I see it, only partially a
> > function of slavery. Some of the wilder elements in the hills of
> > western Arkansas and Missouri, the "Hillbillies", owe their
> > impoverished state to having "gone ape" and liked it, with a long
> > history of inbreeding to perpetuate the genes and the lifestyle. The
> > first generations of Europeans to settle in the subtropical forests of
> > Georgia, Alabama, Missippi, Arkansas, and Lousisiana, on the other
> > hand, simply lacked the physical stamina to work these semi-tropical
> > lands effectively.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Tell me about it.
> 
> It seems to me that they had both the stamina and hardihood to carve a nation
> out
> of a hostile wilderness. Would you have cared to try it.
> =========================================

No argument there. The problem is that these people were from a totally
different climactic area, and they had a diet and lifestyle appropriate
for a different climate, nor were they immune to malaria. I'm not
saying that they couldn't and didn't eventually learn to adapt, but the
brawny the West Africans brought over as slaves were used to the
climate, immune to malaria (= the tradeoff for having the gene for
sickle cell anemia), and thus had a decided physical advantage that was
hard to match. Back in those days people didn't travel much, and they
didn't understand the relationship between lifestyle and the ability to
function effectively in different climates. The person who had his
agricultural work done by slaves of African origin always had an
advantage over the person of northern European origin who did his own
agriculture work in the sub-tropical parts of the American south.


> >
> > The most obvious answer, which will blow your stack, is by
> > demonstrating that even the grandchild of "po' white trash" can be a
> > two-term president :-)
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> Say something that has a hope in hell of impressing me. You don't HAVE to come
> from a poor home to become a great prsident.
> 
> ============================

Bill "BJ" Clinton demonstrated that it is really true that any American
can become president. No, I jest. Bill Clinton, Rhodes Scholar, Yale
graduate with honors, etc. was known to be a political genius and a
truly dedicated political animal. GWB does not have anything
approaching such an impressive track record, and history may refer to
him as "the accidental president".

>
> > Tell me a large country that has not had such periods in its past. On
> > a grassroots level Bavarians have a visceral antipathy towards
> > Prussians, which is reciprocated in kind, for much the same reasons.
> > The Civil War was a much about slavery as it was about the conflicting
> > economic interests of the industrializing, protectionist North and the
> > agricultural, free-trading South.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> There is no magic formula that   guarantees the non-occurrence  of major
> internal
> conflicts. I maintain, however, that a nation should never admit to itself
> anything with the potential to generate such a conflict. Absent blacks, there
> would not have been a  civil war of the type we had.

Perhaps. That does not mean it could have been spared as destructive a
conflict as the Russian Civil war which claimed millions of victims,
the civil-war-like conflict that is still simmering in former
Yugoslavia, or the decades-long low level conflicts in Northern Ireland
or the Basque country. Race, difference in appearance, is easy to latch
onto when people want to advance their interests violently. If there
are no racial differences, religious, linguistic, political, or ethnic
differences will suffice. Lacking those, there is always the old
warhorse of exacerbating different economic interests.

> 
> Since you wish to put this thing on a profit-and-loss basis and since you are
> convinced that the American nation  "gained" from slavery (something I utterly
> deny) then consistency demands that you factor in the staggering loss to the
> nation from the civil war.
> 
> ========================================================

Like many "revisionist historians", I tend to think that slavery was
not as central a factor in the American Civil War as the more
fundamental clash of economic interests was. The North needed the South
in order to industrialize and have a captive market for its overpriced
and less than state-of-the-art industrial products. The South, on the
other hand, did not need the North in order to continue its lifestyle,
which enabled a privileged minority to live exceptionally opulently,
consuming the best industrial and other imports that money could buy,
and not afraid to tell the North where to go. The American Civil war
was essentially a _colonial war_ in which regulated and protected
markets were pitted against lassaiz-faire and free trade. It resulted
in the destruction of slavery as an economic institution and made the
South into an economic colony of the North, a victory for regulated and
protected markets, for more than a century.

The economic conflict was so acute that even without slavery, it would
have led to a military conflict resulting almost certainly in the North
making an economic colony out of the South.


> > > (5) Eugene would have us believe that, in the black collective, lies an
> > > enormous pool of untapped talent just crying for a chanc to shower its
> > > "benefits" on America. There are several replies to that, any single one
> > > sufficient.
> > >
> > > (a)  The amounts we have invested in precisely that purpose already run
> > > into trillions.  With what result?
> >
> > Two thirds of black Americans are now in the middle class.
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have remarked before that, while you have an enormous ability to collect
> materials that support your belief systems, you are much less diligent in
> doing
> the same for materials that may challenge it.
> 
> About your claim about black Americans in the middle class, I am going to
> dismiss
> it on the dual grounds that you are both too partisan and too remote  from the
> scene.
> 
> =============================================

Let's start with some obvious facts. There are three black Americans in
top positions of reponsibility in a _Republican_ administration. This
seems to indicate that black Americans are no longer tokens, no longer
automatic Democrats and, Condoleezza Rice being one of America's
leading Russia experts, no longer automatically assumed to be
representing black American issues. What other ethnic minority can
claim this status? Whenwas an American Indian, an Asian American, or a
Polynesian last in an administration or, more importantly, viewed as
anything but a person whose job it was to represent the interests of
his/her ethnic group. None of the black Americans in the Bush
adminstration is a "professional black". They are just Americans who
happen to be both competent and black. 

 
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Whatever subterfuges have been used to keep black people from having political
> power have been well justified by subsequent events.
> 
> For the rest, they do nothing more than support my position that the two races
> cannot liev together on a basis of equality. Many of our great men have said as
> much.
> 
> =====================================================

The Bush adminsitration proves otherwise. The black members of the
adminstration represent all Americans, not just black Americans. As a
matter of fact, many black Americans have an aversion to all three.
Others, though, are quite proud of the fact that their Americanness not
their blackness defines them.

>
> > If they are receiving comfortable salaries for themselves and profits
> > for their employers, it is still a seller's market. Unlike the market
> > for radio comedians, cotton gin operators, bagpipe players, or
> > Etruscanists.
> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) The fact that a system rewards certain activities does not make those
> activities socially useful; indeed, they may well be socially destructive.
> 
> (2) You tell me there is a "seller's market" for certain professions -  yes?
> Tell
> me: when was the last time you were in San Jose, California?
> 
> =====================================.

I was last in San José back in 1991. I wasn't job hunting, so I don't
know about the niceties of local buyers' and sellers' markets. A
Finnish-Sri Lankan couple I know found high-paying jobs as systems
analysts there at about that time, and they have been there ever since,
both of them pulling handsome salaries, even by local standards.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:40 EDT 2001
Article: 908526 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: mass murderers
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 18:41:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <7545f97a88bac837b9a054f660d23284@anonymous.poster>, Chicago
 wrote:

> Kikes are the biggest mass murderers in history.
> 
> Don't forget the 80 million Christians killed
> by jewish communists in the Soviet Union.

Stalin, who studied for the Orthodox priesthood, was a kike? A country,
all of whose top communist leaders, from Lenin to Gorbachev, were the
products of nominally Christian families, was Jewish?

No regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:41 EDT 2001
Article: 908546 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Supersedes: <090620011436202704%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B215585.FFFF5F88@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > I did not claim that it was without cost. I said that the services
> > provided to slaves - food, clothing, accommodation, medical care - fell
> > within the penumbra of overhead. Slave owners paid the overhead, as any
> > employer of a specialist work force has to do, but they did not pay any
> > compensation. The fact that they had money to spend on jewelry for
> > their public and priavte lady friends, sending their sons to England
> > for an education, expanding their estates, gambling, and purchasing
> > more slaves indicates that they were dividing the usufructs of the
> > labor done by the slaves _after overhead had been paid_ on a "0% for
> > you, 100% for me" basis. This is wrong, and you know it.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Of course it was but we stray form the point. You are claming that I, Dick
> Phillips,
> am some.how "better off" today .because we had a slave system than I would be
> if
> Southern agricultur had been on the basis of thousands of independent white
> proprietors as it was in the North.

In the above you have admitted that the usufructs of the labor done by
the slaves was appropriated 100% (after all overhead and running
expenses had been met) by the slave owning classes, and that this was
wrong. It's impossible to put a dollar price on the amount of money
that was thus purloined, but given that the lifetime labor of several
million people was involved over, let us say, the 90 odd years betwen
American independence and the abolition of slavery, we are not dealing
with pocket change. If we go back to the beginnings of American slavery
to the colonial period the timeframe is extended by more than a
century. This is a vast amount of money, an amount which in today's
dollars would be in the trillions.

Now, I'm no econometrician, but let's consider the following model. You
have a society in which 20% of the labor force works and produces, but
the entire usufruct of its labor for more than two centuries, a few
trillions of dollars, is appropriated by a small segment within the
other other 80%. This gives them the usufruct of its own work plus the
windfall of the usufruct produced by the 20% from whom it is
confiscated. If you are already making a comfortable living, but also
have a guaranteed a hefty supplementary cashline, you can realize
dreams that you would not have been able to. This is in every way
analogous to the types of guaranteed cashflows which enable British
royalty to build their palaces, buy their crown jewels, and engage in
so many of the other extravagant forms of behavior that royalty love,
and which makes their lives a constant source of curiosity and
amusement on the part of the commoner.

My contention is that the windfall that the confiscated usufructs of
slavery provided the slave masters had a function similar to the
windfall the land ownership rights in the UK provide the British Royal
Family. They invest much of the money in things, many of them
frivolous, they could elsewise never afford - subsidizing museums and
orchestras, foxhunting, maintaining musty castles, and providing the
masses with a sufficent amount of pomp and circumstances to keep them
amused - that the UK is arguably a better and more interesting place to
live than if such a confiscation and one-sided redistribution of
usufructs were not to take place.

Similarly, as it stands now, the usufructs of labor appropriated form
millions of slaves over the more than two centuries that American
chattel slavery existed also provided the people who had access to this
surplus flow of cash with the funds needed to beautify places, build
estates which are now museums, support charity, drink the finest
double-mash Bourbon whisky, refine the mint julep, and amass the
capital needed to establish commercial enterprises, provide jobs, and
generate taxes. Most of the money remained within the boundaries of the
United States, and no matter how it was spent, much of it contributed
to the overall prosperity and civility of the country.

> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> I am telling you to your face that the claim is preposterous and I am
> challenginc you
> to prove otherwise - if you can.
> 
> ========================================

The money earned by slavery was spent on things that would probably not
have been bought if the slaves had not been allowed to keep their
earnings. Making the slaves penniless means making the slave-owning
class richer by the same degree. Surplus money is either spent on
luxuries, some of which the public can enjoy, or invested, generating
further prosperity. The financial losses suffered by the slaves were a
financial windfall for those who had access to the uncut usufructs of
their labor.

> > More realistically one fourth and some; Mexico has a GDP of approx.
> > $8,000, that of the US is approx. $32,000.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> No. More realistically one-tenth for that is a common spread of wage levels.
> 
> ==========================


Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html#Econ

MEXICO

GDP: purchasing power parity - $865.5 billion (1999 est.) 

GDP - real growth rate: 3.7% (1999 est.) 

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $8,500 (1999 est.) 

GDP - composition by sector: 
agriculture: 5% 
industry: 29% 
services: 66% (1999) 

***********************************************

Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Econ

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

GDP: purchasing power parity - $9.255 trillion (1999 est.) 

GDP - real growth rate: 4.1% (1999 est.) 

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $33,900 (1999 est.) 

GDP - composition by sector: 
agriculture: 2% 
industry: 18% 
services: 80% (1999) 


***********************************************

One important source of the USA's relative prosperity compared to
Mexicos' is the relative size of the industrial sectors. The industrial
sector in Mexico is substantially larger, while in the USA the services
sector dominates. One service offered by the service sector is the
information needed by a firm that wants something manufactured to
ensure that it gets the best value for money. Mexican industry, which
has to provide work for a percentually larger army of industrial
workers, is forced to take any jobs that it is offered to keep the
plants running, often at the sellers' price.


"Elephants. I enjoy looking at them, but I wouldn't want to own one."

- W. C. Fields

> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> True. And any American government officialt that allowed a thing like that to
> happen
> to America,s  people do not deserve to be hurled bodily from office, they
> deserve to
> be shot.And if an NS regime ever comes to power there is a better than even
> chance
> they will be. THis will of course raise from the legalists the cry: You can't
> do
> that. It's ex-post-facto legislation. To that our answer will be:
> Facto/schmacto.
> They die at dawn.
> 
> ========================================================

Issues like this cannot be resolved on the basis of emotions or gut
feelings. Industrialists have to decide whether they are running
commercial establishments or charities. The solution that seems right
on the basis of common sense might not be the optimal one in terms of
common cents.


> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> We stray from the issue.
> 
> You are claming that I, Dick Phillips, am some.how "better off" today
> .because we had
> a slave system than I would be if Southern agricultur had been on the basis of
> thousands of independent white proprietors as it was in the North.
> I am telling you to your face that the claim is preposterous and I am
> challenginc you
> to prove otherwise - if you can.
> 
> ===============================================

I already suggested that the total appropriation of the usufructs of
slave labor enabled many cultural monuments, charitable organizations,
and family fortunes to be established which otherwise would not have
been. The other side of the coin, the misery and hopelessness of the
slave, has also contributed to making America a better, or at least
more interesting place. From a purely intellectual standpoint, the
issue of slavery engaged some of America's greatest thinkers in a
debate over the purpose of the country, the nature of freedom, and the
brotherhood of mankind during the pre Civil War years. It provided the
thematic material for some of the icons of American culture, such as
_Uncle Tom's Cabin_, _Uncle Remus_, _Huckleberry Finn_, _Porgie and
Bess_, and _Gone with the Wind_. The sub-culture of slavery produced
many of the things that are regarded as distinguishing American from
British culture. These include Southern-style and Creole cooking, and
southern hospitality, as well as blackface comedy, Negro spirituals,
jazz, blues, and rock music.

All of these, and many other things, are direct or indirect
consequences of American chattel slavery, the two cultures which
developed within it, and their combined input into American cultural
identity as a whole. You might not personally like them all, but they
are inescapable if you are resident in the United States and recognized
around the world as identifying and defining positive attributes of
American culture. Without them, America would be just a warmer version
of Canada.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:41 EDT 2001
Article: 908555 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.skeptic,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Racist Jews and the Politics of Pretense
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:23:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <090620011923570648%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <9fm7lq$1l06$1@news.hal-pc.org>   <9frum7$5jm4$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>  <9ft5p6$6v5k$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>
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In article <9ft5p6$6v5k$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>, Mao-The-Dung
 wrote:

> The Nazis (who were mostly German) murdered a lot of Jews, same as the
> Bolsheviks (who were mostly Jews) who murdered a lot of Gentiles.  Murder is
> wrong, no matter who does it.  

The Bolsheviks were mostly Russians. All of the leaders of the USSR,
except Stalin, a Georgian who once studied for the Orthodox priesthood,
were ethnic Russians or Russified Ukrainians born into nominally
Christian homes. The USSR, which evolved from the chaos of the
Bolshevik revolution of 1917, was an organ of Russian chauvinism and
imperialism disguised as internationalist communism. It was an
anti-clericalist state hence, by default, anti-Jewish.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:41 EDT 2001
Article: 908918 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Front Cover of TV Guide
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:18:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <100620011218214754%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <20010608223123.11820.00002578@ng-fo1.aol.com>   <3b240712.38565448@news.mindspring.com>
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In article <3b240712.38565448@news.mindspring.com>, Gentleman Jim
 wrote:

>    Is the miscegenation of two different peoples, from the opposite
> ends of the racial spectrum,caucasian and negro, for the common good
> of mankind? 

Opposite ends of the racial spectrum? Not even _The Bell Curve_ argues
that.

> To what end does it serve to promote miscegenation of any
> kind? 

To what end does it serve to promote "racial purity", being that we all
derive from the same source?

> For every Tiger Woods, there are at least thousand Whites who
> have  accomplished much more outside the field of sports, and have
> benefited humanity immeasurably. 

For every Tiger Woods, there are thousands of people of _all races_ who
have accomplished much in other fields.

> How does a lousy, snobbish game such as  golf benefit anybody?  

It generates taxable income and brings people "happiness", the pursuit
of which is an alienable right.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:42 EDT 2001
Article: 908919 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:30:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 21
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In article <3B22A98D.F3DFF152@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Do you claim to be unuware of what I am talking about. You are a currently
> active
> participant on thi NG. Are you claming never to have seen any posts on the
> matter.
> Are you claiming never to have seen the exchange between Holman and myself.
> 
> ====================================================

In which I specifically maintained that the question of reparations for
slavery is an _economic_ issue concerning the purloining of usufructs
of labor, not a racial issue. There were white slaves, there were black
slave owners.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:42 EDT 2001
Article: 908937 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Supersedes: <100620011245041215%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:58:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
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In article <3B22B424.C7EE879A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> And he is SO right. Any idea how many descendants of white slaves we have
> now, particularly
> among Anglo-Saxon folk in humble circumstances? Well I'd say it would have to
> be in the
> millions. Oh, the history books do what they can to play it down: says they
> were
> "indentured servants."  Nope, they were slaves.

"Indentured servants" were not slaves. The word "indenture" refers to a
formal contract. Indentured servitude enabled Englishmen of modest
means to finance their journey to the American Colonies in rteturn for
a specific period of servitude. The contract was concluded on the basis
of free will and an understanding of the obligations, and the
indentured servant was a free man once he had fulfilled the terms of
the contract. It was not the same as chattel slavery, which was
involuntary and involved a lifetime of servitude with no hope of
release or access to the usufructs of one's labor.

> ==========================================
> Phillips
>
> So when payoff day comes and the black boys
> line up at the counter to get their share of the swag, they might just
> possibly find Whitey
> there too. And I don't think Al Sharpton's gonna like that one little bit.
> 
> ===================================

Some American Indians were also made chattel slaves, so their
descendants will also be there. If payday ever comes, which I seriously
doubt, people of many ethnicities will have claims on the swag. Chattel
slavery was a shameful stain on American history. Showing that whites,
blacks, and American Indians were all victimized will be an important
part of coming to terms with the darker side of America's past,
something which, I am sure, will please Monsieur Sharpton and many
others.

Regards,
Eugnee Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:44 EDT 2001
Article: 908938 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Mexico
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:03:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <100620011603146307%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b1e08e0.1894605@news.supernews.com> <9fme4k$ub$1@panix3.panix.com>  <87n17lawda.fld@barrow.com> <9fmtlb$o5$1@panix3.panix.com> <9fmtub$429$1@slb5.atl.mindspring.net> <3B1F7A5B.BAD524C7@bigfoot.com>   <080620011719536522%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B20ED03.F7A23F38@earthlink.net> <080620012146328767%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B212545.D8427359@earthlink.net> <090620010035378973%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B215585.FFFF5F88@earthlink.net> <090620011436202704%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> 
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In article , Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:090620011436202704%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > One important source of the USA's relative prosperity compared to
> > Mexicos' is the relative size of the industrial sectors. The industrial
> > sector in Mexico is substantially larger,
> .
>     This is because manual labor is a lot cheaper in Mexico. The real reason
> things for the difference in prosperity is all about race.
> 
>     The former White nations and Japan are the first world. The Black
> nations and India are the third world. In the middle, or the second world
> are the Arabs and China. It is just as racialists would predict.  It is
> because the White race is on average much more intelligent than the Black
> race. The people in Japan are much lighter in color than the people in
> India.

Quite a theory. How do you explain tht Albania, Ukraine (50,000,000
inhabitants) and Moldava have GDP/capita in the range of $2,000, while
black Bahamas is $20,000?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:44 EDT 2001
Article: 908958 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:46:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B236B83.EC1F8B0B@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> True, there is no word for volk in the English language, but the concept is
> NOT
> alien to the American psyche -- much as the Jews would like in to be so, to
> which
> end they have spared no effort. The Jew will never feel safe in any country
> that
> maintains its sense of nation and race.
> 
> ==============================================

Which, dear Richard, excludes you.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:44 EDT 2001
Article: 908959 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Supersedes: <100620011644576827%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:49:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
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In article <3B236B83.EC1F8B0B@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> For more than three centuries? You are telling me, then, that in the year
> 1700, the
> sight of mixed-race couples was a common sight?
> 
> ==================================================

It was not a common sight. But the products of their having groused in
the goodie were. Sally Hemmings, the paramour of Thomas Jefferson, was
herself the product of sexual congress between Jefferson's
father-in-law and a mulatta slave, herself the product of a liaison
between a slave woman and an English sailor.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:45 EDT 2001
Article: 908968 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:01:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <100620011701517834%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B2363AB.CDEBD9D1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Hav. you ever seen the movie Captain Blood with Errel Flynn. transportation
> to a
> colony AS a slave(though the word was never used) was part and parcel of the
> English penal system. It was to  Australia that they shipped a great number of
> recalcitrant Southern   Irish.
> 
> ==================================================

They were not made chattel slaves, nor were there children born into
slavery.


> >
> > Some American Indians were also made chattel slaves, so their
> > descendants will also be there
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> An attempt was made to enslave   Indians but it just wouldn't work. The 
> Indians
> just plain wouldn't BE slaves.
> 
> =======================================================

That is a conclusion based on experience, aka empirical evidence. The
conclusion that Indians "just plain wouldn't BE slaves" coukd not have
been drawn without experience enslaving Indians.


> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Just exactly do you mean when you speak of  "coming to terms" with "the
> darker side
> of America's past?" If you mean we will have to bow our collective heads and beg
> forgiveness, for get it.
> 
> =======================================

You, Richard, the second-generation descendant of Ukrainian Jewish
immigrants, don't really count in this exercise. We Americans with a
longer history in the country, black, red, and white, have a lot of
work coming to terms with the past.

No hard feelings,
Eugene Holman, descendant of African slaves, English, Dutch, and
Portuguese Sephardic Jewish colonists, and Seminole and Chuckatuck
Indians.


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:45 EDT 2001
Article: 908974 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:10:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B2370A2.C740665@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > > ==============================================
> >
> > Which, dear Richard, excludes you.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Not really. I cannot change the fact of what my grandparents were and would
> not
> do so if I could. However, I have chosen to identify with the white, Aryan
> majority.
> 
> ============================================

In a racialist state you would not have the freedom to pick and choose
your racial, confessionalist, or ethnic identity. In Hungary, for
example, tens of thousands of Catholics wound up being classified as
Jews, and suffering the often lethal consequences, on the basis of some
of their grandparents' beliefs once the Nazis were in charge of things.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun Jun 10 20:38:46 EDT 2001
Article: 908975 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips puking up lies again
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:18:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B2371BA.3CF3E7F8@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What took place in the seclusion of a Monticello bedroom and what was visible
> on city streets were two entirely different matters.
> 
> Jefferson's aversion to blacks in principal was a product of his
> left-hemisphere brain; his lust for Sally came from his balls.
> 
> =====================================

ROTFLMAO!

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jun 11 20:12:55 EDT 2001
Article: 909502 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Supersedes: <110620011750507546%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:15:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B24C961.C828E81D@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> G*rd*n wrote:
> 
> > | ...
> >
> > "Richard G. Phillips" :
> > | Of course it was but we stray form the point. You are claming that I,
> > Dick Phillips,
> > | am some.how "better off" today .because we had a slave system than I
> > would be if
> > | Southern agricultur had been on the basis of thousands of independent
> > white
> > | proprietors as it was in the North.
> > | I am telling you to your face that the claim is preposterous and I am
> > challenginc you
> > | to prove otherwise - if you can.
> > | ....
> >
> > I think it's impossible to say whether you, personally, are
> > better off today because of slavery.  Blacks per capita have
> > about one-tenth the net worth of Whites, but many Whites of
> > course do not have much if any net worth -- wealth tends to
> > become concentrated.   However, the disparity in net worth
> > may well be due more to post-Civil War racist practice than
> > to anything else.  (Some theories of reparations include
> > compensation for this injury, but it is much harder to caculate.)
> > I don't think anyone's personal fate or financial position is
> > relevant to the reparations issue, which is usually about labor
> > performed and not paid for, and what to do about it.
> >
> > However, I don't think there's any doubt that the wealth
> > stolen from slave labor contributed substantially to the
> > general wealth of the United States.
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> It did no such thing.
> 
> Slaves had to be fed, clothed, and housed to a standard that would maintain
> health and
> fitness. 

It's called operating overhead. Baseball players are also fed, clothed,
transported, and housed to a standard that will maintain their health
and fitness because, when properly taken care of [= a sufficient amount
is invested in covering the expenses needed to keep a team in playing
condition], they produce a cash stream which covers the overhead and
yields exceptionally good profits per dollar invested. Unlike the case
with a baseball team, the slave owners appropriated the entire profit
for themselves, building mansions, sending their sons off to England,
buying their legal and illegal womenfolk jewelry, and sipping mint
juleps made with bourbon whisky. 


> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> All this was a bite out of the national economy no less than would
> have been the
> case had money wages been paid to white persons who, out of that pittance,
> had to provide
> all of those things for themselves.
> 
> ========================================

You miss the point. Slaves performed the work for a lifetime but
received no real compensation: work clothes, food, and housing, all
provided not by real need, but rather as need was assessed by the slave
owners, are not _compensation_ for work but only the _necessary
prerequisites_ for work. The entire usufruct of slave labor was
appropriated by the owners, and at least some of this was plowed into
the national economy by allowing people who would otherwise not have
been able to, to indulge in luxuries, extravagances, business ventures,
and charity, thus, in the longer term, increasing the prosperity and
raising the cultural level of the country as a whole.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jun 11 20:12:55 EDT 2001
Article: 909608 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.mexican.american,soc.culture.jewish,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Case For White Reparations
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:22:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 82
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In article <3B24F6DA.B966C77A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> > You miss the point. Slaves performed the work for a lifetime but
> > received no real compensation: work clothes, food, and housing, all
> > provided not by real need, but rather as need was assessed by the slave
> > owners, are not _compensation_ for work but only the _necessary
> > prerequisites_ for work. The entire usufruct of slave labor was
> > appropriated by the owners, and at least some of this was plowed into
> > the national economy by allowing people who would otherwise not have
> > been able to, to indulge in luxuries, extravagances, business ventures,
> > and charity, thus, in the longer term, increasing the prosperity and
> > raising the cultural level of the country as a whole.
>
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I do not "miss" the point; I have hit on it precisely. You have not made you
> case
> until you can present a convincing argument that the slave system resulted in
> more socially useful long-term investment than would an alternative system
> many,
> many, many small to medium white proprietors such as we had in th North (or DID
> have until they invented   "agribusiness.")
> 
> =====================================================

Subsistance farming feeds the family but leave precious little left
over for investment, savings, or luxuries. For people of European
origin in the early 19th century subsistance farming was also
physically arduous: it took them one or two generations to learn to
adjust their habits and lifestyle to subtropical climates. Many of them
were constantly in debt and lived from hand to mouth, with most of the
crop sold to money lenders before it was even harvested.

If there had not been slavery in the South, the climactic problems
would still have assured the southern smallholder a smaller income,
despite better growing conditions, than that available to farmers in
the North who could continue European framing practices growing the
same strains of agricultural products and keeping the same breeds of
cattle that thrived in North-Wesern Europe.

Southern slavery allowed for a polarization of society, with
significant concentrations of surplus wealth among the wealthiest of
the planters. That's why they could build mansions and enjoy a
lifestyle inaccessible for people in the North. They could buy jewelry
for their women, much of it now in museums and the property of the
entire nation. They could build mansions, some of which still survive
as museums or monuments of American culture. They could send their sons
off to study at Oxford and Cambridge, which raised the general level of
culture, they could experiment with various exotic foodstuffs, thus
contributing to the development of a distinctive American cuisine with
semit-tropical elements. Since the slaves had no income, they had to
develop a culture which did not require money or property, thus the
development of blues, jazz, and folklore (e.g the tales collected by
Joel Chandler Harris). The complex symbiotic relationship between the
slaveholders and the slaves resulted in philosophical issues, reflected
in the Dred Scott Decision, the Lincoln-Douglas debates, and the
consequent century long dominance of issues concerning civil and human
rights in American political dialogue, as well as in works of art that
define the American experience, such as _Uncle Tom's Cabin_,
_Huckleberry Finn_, and _Gone with the Wind_.

America would be just a warmer version of Canada if slavery had never
existed. The fact that America is a more vibrant and dynamic culture
than any of the other Anglo-Saxon-founded colonial cultures is very
much due to two centuries of chattel slavery and the significant
economic dislocations that it caused. The confiscated usufruct of the
labor of several million slaves over the course of two centuries, an
amount of money equal to trillions of today's dollars, necessarily had,
in the shorter term, an important impact on the personal economies of
those who lost out as well as on those of the people who acquired the
usufruct. A significant number of the features that set America off
>from other Anglo-Saxon cultures can be traced back in one way or
another to the usufruct confiscated by slave owners during these two
centuries of chattel slavery, and this economic windfall, whether
invested on finer mansions or wasted on silk dresses and mint juleps,
ultimately benefitted the entire country in the longer term.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:03 EDT 2001
Article: 915615 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: White Sex
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:51:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
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In article , Andy
 wrote:

> The fact is, anyone who looks at me, knows I'm white. Course I am, my
> parents were white, so the chances of me being any other colour are
> very slim. I am not ashamed of my colour, and I do not consider my
> colour to be better than someone else's.

This is not quite true. The notion "white" is a cultural construct and
restricted to a part of the English-speaking world and the cultures
influenced by it. 

The Nazis, for example, did not consider Jews or Gypsies to be white (=
Aryans). My own experience from American university life and fraternity
rushing is that a person with blond hair, blue, eyes, and a name like
John Leach, Charles Branch, or Wilhelm Schneidermann, will be regarded
as "white", while a person with darker hair, brown eyes, and a name
like Joe diSapio, Michael O'Connell, Abraham Shlupsky, Enver Sqipitar,
or Wladislaw Krzeczscewicz will not be. I'm, writing from Finland, a
country whose inhabitants are mostly blond haired and blue or
gray-eyed, but speak a non-Indo-European language and often have a hint
of Asiaticness in their eye shape, somewhat falt faces, and high
cheekbones (go to http://www.vn.fi/ and, under "Ministers", check out
the face of Suvi-Anne Siimes), something which has resulted in many
Swedes historically regarding them as not white, but rather as a kind
of bleached Mongolians. And why in American society are "Hispanics"
regarded as a race distinct from whites?


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:03 EDT 2001
Article: 915620 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Free trade versus Tariffs
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:12:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B325C43.1FD9FC5F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =============================================
> Philliips
> 
> What you say would be true  if the foreign market for American goods were the
> ONLY market for those goods. Bit it is
> not. There is another market for those goods, the AMERICAN market is not only
> an alternative but by far the most
> important market for American goods. The strength and vigour of that market
> depends on the domestic income available t
> support it and this, in turn, depends on the number of high-paying jobs here.

The strength and vigor of that market also depends on decision-makers
not paying Americans $25/hour to do jobs which the rest of the world
does for $5/hour. A market can only justify high-paying jobs if its
workers have unique skills which no other market can provide. No
economically knowledgeable person is going to pay $300 for a television
set comporable to sets selling for $80 elsewhere in the world.


> =============================================
> Philliips
> 
> Would tariff barriers result in a loss American jobs. In the short run they
> might because the economy will need time to
> readjust. But in the long run - NO.
> The erecting of high tariff barriers would result in a massive shift of
> wealth from the haves to the have-nots. And that
> is precisely what I want.
> 
> ================================

More likely it would result in a massive external devaluation of the
American dollar with consequent internal inflation as the economy
adapts to the realities of the global marketplace.

The "haves" are not going to give up their hard-won wealth without a
fight. Nor, I'm afraid, would most "have-nots" be willing to change
their present status for that of a worker in the former Soviet Union.
Industrial wages were relatively high, but, with no foreign competition
or incentive to improve products, Soviet industry manufactured goods
that were actually worth _less_ than the raw materials of which they
had been made; Soviet manufacturing actually meant subtracting rather
than adding value to raw materials. High tariffs enabled the USSR to
keep this economic circus running for a while, consumers had few
alternatives, but the system eventually collapsed, a victim of its own
economic impossibility.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:03 EDT 2001
Article: 915636 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: White Sex
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:54:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 78
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In article <1ld6jtc7vtsi0tmpjtt6a6vvpphme348ot@4ax.com>, Andy
 wrote:


[DELETIONS]

> Is Bjork Finnish?

No. Bjork, actually Björk [pronounced "byerk"], is Swedish. Swedish is
a first cousin of English, and the name/word is a cognate meaning
"birch". The Finnish word for "birch" is "koivu".

[DELETIONS]

> Now, we've covered white. Can someone explain why it is different, to
> black? Is black a "cultural construct" or not?

I myself happen to be black, and I would say that as far as Amerixa is
concerned "black" is indeed a "cultural construct".

In the US a person is regarded as "black" if he/she has any visible
traces of African ancestry. Until 1965 some states had statutes,
referred to as "one drop rules", according to which anybody with evena 
single known black ancestor was legally black. Thus people with seven
"white" and one "black" great grandparent were regarded as "black".
Both Queen Elizabeth, one of whose ancestors was the mulatto Queen
Charlotte, and Prince Philip, a direcvt descendant of Russian poet
Alexander Pushkin, whose great grandfather was an Ethipian princeling,
would be regarded as "black" in such states if the laws were applied
consistently.

Since these matters are now judged on an "I know one when I see one"
basis, the siblings of the same "mixed-race" family can be regarded as
belonging to different races depending on subtle differences in skin
color, nose shape, and hair texture. In the American context most
blacks have some European ancestry due to the peccidollos of slave
owners who had unlimited sexual access to their human property. Many,
like myself, also have some American Indian ancestry because until
Indian Removal in the 1830s, escaped slaves were frequently taken in by
and lived the rest of their lives with Indians.

Within the so-called American black community there are many subgroups
which often resent being thrown together into the same racial grab-bag
of "black", just as many Americans of North-eastern European origin,
Aryans if you will, known generally as WASPs [= White, Anglos-Saxon
Protestant], resent being thrown into the same group with Irish, Poles,
Italians, Albanians, Serbs, Ukrainians, Turks, and - heaven forbid -
[Ashkenazic] Jews. There are people like myself, the "mixed race"
descendant of African slaves, English and Portuguese-Jewish slave
owners, and American Indians. Among us, the fact that we are the
descendants of people whose presence in the United States antedates
American independence, makes us take extreme umbrage at those racists,
many of whom are the descendants of 19th century immigrants, who say
that we are not really Americans and that we should be deported or,
preferably, exterminated. There are people who are descendants of
immigrants to the United States from former British colonies such as
Bermuda, Jamaica, or Guyana during the great immigration wave between
1880 and 1914; and there are people from Haiti, Africa, and the West
Indies whose presence in the United States is a consequence of the
liberalization of immigration laws and the introduction of a
merit-based system in the mid 1960s. Interestingly enough, the
immigrant group in the United States with the highest level of
educational accomplishment (= most PhD's per capita) is the Nigerians.
In any case these groups have very different racial and social
histories which are hardly served by lumping them all together on the
basis of a few attributes of appearance.

We still have the social construct known as "Asian": Iranians, Iraqis,
Azeris, Turkmenians, Uzbekis, Tadzhiks, Georgians, Armenians, Kurds,
Afghanis, Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalis, Bhutanese, Bangladeshis, Sri
Lankans; Thais, Burmese, Malaysians, Laotians, Indonesians,
Singaporeans, Cambodians, Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese, Koreans,
Philippinos, Papua New Guineans [who tend to look "black", but are not
Africans], and Vietnamese typically resent being lumped into the racial
category "Asian".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:04 EDT 2001
Article: 915668 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:50:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 29
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In article <3B3356ED.D5425162@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Dobrai55@webtv.net wrote:
> 
> > I heard of this poll and wish to record my vote.
> > I am a Lieutenant with the Chicago Police Department. Joe Bruno has been
> > arrested on the following charges in the last 40 years:
> >
> > Burglary, Robbery, Assault, Embezzlement, Grand Theft Auto, Extortion,
> > Inciting to Riot, Arson, Fraud, Battery, Murder, Perjury, Obstruction of
> > justice, Jury tampering, forgery, Counterfeiting,Bribery,Income tax
> > evasion, Racketeering, Resisting arrest, and Indecent Exposure.
> >
> >  Other than that, we all think he's terrific.
> >
> > Lt.  Joe Schmo
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> You forgot Piracy on the High Seas.
> 
> ==========================

If it's Chicago, Piracy on the Great Lakes would be more appropriate.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:04 EDT 2001
Article: 915701 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Free trade versus Tariffs
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:37:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 213
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In article <3B33547F.C740ACB9@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> National Socialism cares nothing for abstractions such as the "market." It
> care for
> one thing and one thing only: a congenial and abundant life   of ordinary
> white
> Americans.
> 
> ====================================================

There exist such things as economic realities which preclude such a
life if ordinary white Americans are doing precisely the same jobs at
precisely the same level of efficiency as ordinary brown Mexicans. With
computerization, automatization, and global marketplaces this is
increasingly the case.

> > also depends on decision-makers
> > not paying Americans $25/hour to do jobs which the rest of the world
> > does for $5/hour.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Just change the numbers a bit and you have precisely what was going on during
> much
> of the 19th century. American wages were consistently higher than those of
> Europe.
> Why do you suppose there was such a large stream of immigration here.
> 
> ================================================

During the years of mass immigration - 1880 to 1914 - the American
standard of living was higher than that of the countries of Continental
Europe, but not as high as that of Great Britain, which was the
undisputed world leader: exploiting those colonies brought in a lot of
booty. Primitive communications, slow transport, and other factors made
it possible for American to be isolationist and otherwise a special
case economically. This is 2001, and no country can isolate itself from
the world marketplace the way America was able to in the early years of
the last century.
 
> > A market can only justify high-paying jobs if its
> > workers have unique skills which no other market can provide.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> National Socialism cares nothing about what the market can or cannot justify.
> The
> conditions of life for American workers will NOT be decided by blind market
> forces.
> Under National Socialism the Bottom Line does NOT rule.
> 
> ================================================

Where would the money going to come from to finance such a scheme?
Could it not be put to better use?

> > No
> > economically knowledgeable person is going to pay $300 for a television
> > set comporable to sets selling for $80 elsewhere in the world.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> He will if there is no possible way he can get the $80 one. National
> Socialism will
> make certain that there will be no way.
> 
> ====================================================

There is if they are made in adjacent countries that have land borders.

> > > ================================
> >
> > More likely it would result in a massive external devaluation of the
> > American dollar with consequent internal inflation as the economy
> > adapts to the realities of the global marketplace.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I would expect some international devaluation of the dollar but it would be of
> small concern because we would hav a place a system of strict exchange
> control.

It doesn't help. If your currency is overvalued internally, but worth
anly a fraction of its internal value internationally, market forces
(read black marketeers, often working in collusion with the official
banking sector) will eventially correct things.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Taking dollars out of the country will require  government permission and
> will be
> allowed only undr special circumstances.
> 
> =============================

A measure which will further devalue the dollar. Part of the dollar's
attractiveness (and thus value) has been its universality. Pull that
out from under it and it becomes just another soft currency.

> > The "haves" are not going to give up their hard-won wealth without a
> > fight.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Oh and just what do you think is going to happen? Will the techies and CEOs of
> Silicon Valley form themselves into guerilla bands. Good Lord, very few of
> them
> have the nerve to kill a wasp.
> ===================================================

If the Wasps [pun intended] embark upon a program such as the one you
envision, the result of which would be making the dollar a "soft"
currency with only local value, I think we would see some high-power
economic warfare to thwart the program. A substantial component of
American prosperity rests on the trustworthiness of the dollar as a
unversally accepted medium of exchange. Change that radically and the
trillions of dollars floating around the world will suddenly begin to
be repatriated, and the US govenment will be hard pressed to exchange
them for gold or some other more reliable currency. If you say "fuck
the international dollar holders", that will result in a world in which
you have the USA vs. everyone else, hardly an attractive scenario.

 
> > Nor, I'm afraid, would most "have-nots" be willing to change
> > their present status for that of a worker in the former Soviet Union.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You've managed to turn Stalinist Russia into a favourite bogeyman. ("Stick
> strictly
> to a market ecenomy or we will become another Stalinist Russia.") Ye Gods,
> what
> crap. Stalinist Russia was the outcome of centuries of a history utterly
> utterly
> different from our own and an accumulated culture utterly uterly different
> from our
> own. If you are looking for a model of what life for ordinary people would be
> like,
> Nazi Germany might come closer.
> ========================================

I'm not talking about Stalinist Russia, but rather about the USSR
during its lat thirty years. The ruble/dollar exchange rate was fixed
at SUR 1 = USD 1.62 ion conjunction with a currency reform and major
devaluation back in the early 1960s. This unrealistic rate was
maintained by exchange controls and prohibitions on capital export
until 1989, when there was a 90%(!) devaluation followed by
huperinflation not unlike that experienced by Germany during the early
1920s.

Fixing the ruble/dollar exchange rate was the result of great power
aspirations and stupid economics; the ruble had to be "stronger" than
the dollar for prestige reasons. Since such an exchange rate could only
be maintained by various kinds of economic fiddling, the USSR had to do
its foreign trade either in dollars or by bartering: the ruble was
virtually worthless outside of the USSR. The economy, protected from
foreign or domestic competition, became increasingly inefficient, and
the black market ruble/dollar exchange rate reacted accordingly. In
November 1989 the Soviet Central Bank had to acknowledge the economic
realities: the official international exchange rate of the ruble fell
>from $1.62 to $0.16, the then current black-market rate. The
artificially high wage of a Soviet industrial worker, about SUR
150/month, dropped, in international terms, from $243/month to $24.30 a
month, and this happened just at a time when the Soviet economy began
to open up and close down those sectors that were so monstrously
inefficient that they could not justify their existence or compete with
imports. The rest, including hyperinflation which resulted in two
zeroes being dropped from the "new ruble" and a further 75% devaluation
in 1998, is history.
 
> > Industrial wages were relatively high, but, with no foreign competition
> > or incentive to improve products, Soviet industry manufactured goods
> > that were actually worth _less_ than the raw materials of which they
> > had been made; Soviet manufacturing actually meant subtracting rather
> > than adding value to raw materials. High tariffs enabled the USSR to
> > keep this economic circus running for a while, consumers had few
> > alternatives, but the system eventually collapsed, a victim of its own
> > economic impossibility.
> 
> ====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Before you make outlandish claims of this sort, you really ought to pay some
> attention to our own experience. You claim that, absent foreign competition, a
> country is bound to stagnate technically and industrially. But what happened in
> America during the 19th century? SHELTERED BEHIND A HIGH TARIFF WALL, America did
> not stagnate behind the rest of the world, it LED the world.
> 
> ===========================================================

My claims are not outlandish. As a frequent visitor to the USSR during
the 1980s and a person who learned a lot about theoretical and applied
economics by following the experience of the USSR, I know quite well
what shelter behind a high tariff wall can lead to in a world of rapid
transportation and instant communications. I would not wish such a fate
on my worst enemy. This is the 21st, not the 19th century.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:04 EDT 2001
Article: 916659 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Free trade versus Tariffs
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:48:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
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In article <3B34DE6A.B50B4A30@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> KCOM wrote:
> 

> >
> > Not if I have a say in the matter, and thank God 99.99% of the country
> > is with me on this one.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> They may feel dfferently when they come to a point of realizing that the
present system just is not working
> for them - something they should have realized back in '33.
> 
> =========================

But the present system _is_ working for them. The United States has a
living standard 50% higher that of countries like France, Germany, or the
UK. The only places with a living standard comparable to it are capitalist
and multinational Switzerland and Luxembourg, both of which, by the way,
have large immigrant populations.

Why should any rational person want to exchange the present system, which
offers more people a higher standard of living than any other one, want to
change it for a system that would mean a devalued dollar, a severely
restricted choice of overpriced, non-competitive industrial goods, and
strict exchange controls?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:04 EDT 2001
Article: 916690 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:46:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 170
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In article <3B34E914.19A14B02@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Orac wrote:
> 
> >
> > Even under a national socialist state, you would still have to go to
> > work every day, submit to constraints on clothing and grooming, and turn
> > out a certain amount of work per day. If your state would change that,
> > then your industries would collapse.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> What you say is certainly true: even under National Socialism factories must
> continue to run and must continue to be productive. This will not be
posible if
> the working day is spent either in Zen meditation, contemplating our
navels, or in
> free-for-all mass fornicating.
> 
> A good national socialist understands this and is perfectly prepared to
give his
> full cooperation so long as that cooperation is enlisted rather than
compelled.
> 
> Free market capitalism says: You people had better shape up or this
factory gets
> moved to Mexico. (More often than not, it gets moved to Mexico in any event.)
> 
> National Socialism says: You are not expendable; you are NOT just a cog in the
> wheel; you are part of the Volk community. You have rights and you have
duties.
> Render you duties to the best of your strength and ability and you will
be taken
> care of.
> 
> ===========================================

Industrial processes necessarily develop and become more efficient, people
knowing that they have a secure job and that they will be "taken care of"
are not necessarily going to be willing to continue to upgrade their
skills to match current standards. What would your brand of national
socialism do with redundant workers?


> >
> > Oh, please. And those crude men who choose to sexually harass women at
> > work are NOT troublemakers?
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> For much of the 19th century, middle and upper-class women were
sheltered from the
> world, were kept under the firm control of a father prior to marriage
and under
> the firm control of a husband aftr marriage. They demanded --and got--
liberation
> from this, demanded and got the right to go out in the world and make
their own
> way. But no one ever pointed out to them that this has its perils. Man
is a sexual
> predator. It has always been this way, always will be this way, and (for
reasons
> not readily discernible) HAS to be this way. It is not going to change
to fit the
> needs of capitalism and it is not going to change because it does not suit the
> career aspirations of articulate and ambitious females.
> 
> If women want to go out any enter our workplaces,


..."_our_ workplaces"...?


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I say to them this: if you
> appear to be at least passably fuckable, men will try to "score" on you;
that is
> their nature. If such importunities are unwelcome, I say to you this: you are
> being paid the wages of an adult; handl your situation in an adult way
by facing
> your "harasser" and telling him his attentions are unwelcome. To go bawling to
> your supervisor is the same as a child running home and crying to his mommy.
> 
> ===================================================


You certainly have a crude view of male/female relationships and
appropriate behavior in the workplace. It most certainly is not the nature
of males to make sexual advances at the workplace, and the victim of such
advances, whether female or male, is certainly behaving properly if he/she
informs her/his supervisor of such inappropriate behavior. 


> > > --You MUST, in your demeanour toward your boss, not only be at all
> > > times civil and respectful; but must never by word, gesture, or
> > > nuance appear to be challenging him.
> >
> > Again, how would this be different in a nationalist state? Oh, that's
> > right. In addition to not being able to challenge your boss by word,
> > gesture, or nuance, you'd have to worry about not challenging the state
> > in any way by word, gesture, or nuance, lest you be thrown in a
> > concentration camp.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Hitler regime, remembered today as the instituter of a system of political
> tyranny, actually gave workers the first pretection thy had ever had
against the
> unchecked power of the bosses - a sort of protection American working
people would
> very much like to have today but are not going to have under what we call
> "democracy" which means the rule of big money.
> 
> =====================================================

You are exaggerating. First of all, the social improvements made by the
Nazi regime were, in spirit, a continuation of a tradition of German
social security instituted in the 1870s by Otto von Bismarck. Secondly,
Marxism, syndicatalism, and the Social Democratic Movement had all been
agitating for the type of reforms in the employer/employee relationship
since the growth of labor unions and the threat of social revolutions in
the 1880s. Hitler was on very good terms with German industrialists, and
the workplace reforms the Nazi regime instituted were not contrary to
their interests.

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> >
> >
> > > --You MUST never, respecting a minority group member, do or say
> > > anything suggesting the slightest degree of aversion. Indeed, even
> > > when a company switches bosses on you and puts an African nigger over
> > > you (just to prove how "tolerant" they are) you must never -by either
> > > word, gesture, or facial expression-- indicate that it makes the
> > > slightest difference to you.
> >
> > Why SHOULD it make any difference to you?
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You ask me why I , an American, inheritor of a unique and centuries-old
> civilization, should have the slightest objection to having an African
nigger (
> man but two generations out of the Stone Age) as my work supervisor. If
the reason
> for that is not obvious then no words would ever explain it to you.
> 
> ====================================

I guess I'm stupid because I can't see any greater objection to having
such a supervisor, providing that she/he was competent in his/her job,
than to having one who was the grandson of penniless immigrants from the
Ukrainian shtetl, providing, once again, that he/she were competent. There
are many, many cases of people whose grandparents or even parents lived in
Stone Age conditions, not to mention people born themselves into such
conditions, who have received a Western education and advanced university
degrees. Having an origin in primitive conditions or extreme poverty does
not prevent a person from being a competent worker or a decent human
being.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:05 EDT 2001
Article: 916696 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Holocaust
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:11:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 63
Message-ID: 
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:916696 alt.politics.nationalism.white:519719 alt.politics.nationalism.black:41596 sci.skeptic:507391

In article <73fedc95.0106190407.6adf7918@posting.google.com>,
morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:

> "tim gueguen"  wrote in message
news:<4ksX6.9459$F7.23511@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com>...
> > Holocaust deniers deserve to be ridiculed because of their belief in a
> > massive conspiracy to convince everyone that millions were murdered when
> > they were not,  a conspiracy of impossible proportions.
> > 
> > tim gueguen 101867
> 
> 
>      Maybe some "deniers" are simply nonbelievers.  They don't believe in
> a vast conspiracy--they just don't believe in the Holocaust.  They don't
> believe the Germans could have mass murdered millions with machine-like
> efficiency without leaving tons of paperwork. 

They did. In the form of the systematic deportation schedules in the
archives of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. Other papers were systematically
burned after each operation as standard procedure. Still others document
the homes and property seized by the Nazi authorities from the millions of
people whose last documentary evidence of their existence is an entry on a
German deportation list stating that they were sent to Auschwitz or some
other death camp and who have never been seen or heard from since.

> They don't believe deadly
> Zyklon B could have been used to kill thousands at a time in converted
> shower rooms and morgues.  

Why? Can you think of an easier, cheaper, and more easily controlled
methodology for killing large numbers of people? Windowless hower rooms
fitted with gas-tght doors and powerful ventilation systems offer simple
and easily concealed premises for an undertaking of this type.


> The don't believe bodies could have been
> burned in deep pits in low lying swampy areas with a shallow water table.  

You are obviously unaware of the fact that people have been draining
swamps and keeping the land thus obtained dry by various means of drainage
for more than 4,000 years.

> They don't believe tons of bones left over from cremation can just
> disappear. 

You are obviously unaware of the fact that massive amounts of human
remains, including bits of human bone, have been found at the Auschwitz
complex and its immediate vicinity. 

> Nonbelievers read the testimony and the reports with a healthy 
> dose of skepticism. They don't necessarily have to believe there is some sort 
> of evil conspiracy.  After all, people don't have to conspire to be gullible.

But people do have to be overly, let us say, critical, not to give
credence to the massive confluence of evidence, including photographs,
films, statements of intent, political speeches, architectural diagrams,
forensic analyses, and military orders, correspondence, and reports, that
the Nazis were systematically arresting, dispossessing, deporting, and
then either killing or enslaving the Jews and Gypsies of Europe on a
country-by-country, region-by-region, town-by-town basis.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:05 EDT 2001
Article: 916701 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Free trade versus Tariffs
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:25:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 149
Message-ID: 
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In article <3B357807.FAF44298@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

(Reposting with minor corrections)

> 
> > In article <3B34DE6A.B50B4A30@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > KCOM wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Not if I have a say in the matter, and thank God 99.99% of the country
> > > > is with me on this one.
> > >
> > > ========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > They may feel dfferently when they come to a point of realizing that the
> > present system just is not working
> > > for them - something they should have realized back in '33.
> > >
> > > =========================
> >
> > But the present system _is_ working for them. The United States has a
> > living standard 50% higher that of countries like France, Germany, or the
> > UK. The only places with a living standard comparable to it are capitalist
> > and multinational Switzerland and Luxembourg, both of which, by the way,
> > have large immigrant populations.
> 
> ======================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Mr Holman: you talk about our   "standard of living." Just what do you take as
> the measure of it.
> 
> =================================

Not necessarily in order of importance:

1. GNP/capita
2. High employment level
3. Decent wages
4. Affordable housing
5. Quality public services
6. A tolerable crime rate
7. Virtually universal literacy
8. Stable currency
9. Equal opportunity based on proven competence and qualifications
10. A high level of public health, negligible infant mortality, high life
expectancy

Some comments:
(All statistical data from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook)

The US GNP, $33,900 (1999 est.), is second only to Luxembourg's ($34,200
(1999 est.).  The country has the most diverse, advanced, and largest
economy in the world, and has successfully made the transition from an
industrial to a post-industrial, information and services oriented
economy. Only 18% of its people are employed in industry, while 80% are
employed in services. Its industrial profile is so technologically
advanced, that its mean and lean industrial sector is able to produce many
products not produced anywhere else in the world, thus assuring
exceptionally high value added. Its annual growth rate of about 4% means
that it is constantly providing jobs to those entering the job market.
Unemployment is at an enviable 4.2% (1999). Compare this to the four large
prosperous European economies such
as France, the UK, Germany, and Italy: 

(All figures for 1999)

                         France         Germany      United Kingdom   Italy
GNP/capita               $23,300        $22,700      $21,800          $21,400
Unemployment rate            11%            11%           6%              12%
Industrial employment        26%            30%          25%              32%
Services employment          71%            68%          73%              66%

All four of these countries have standards of living lower by almost all
of the important indicators than that of the United States. The crime rate
in all of them is lower, primarily because of strict gun control. All four
problems have serious problems with violent crime, particularly theft and
robbery, the consequences of narcotics addiction and the existence of
various criminal underworld groupings.

Let's look at the three richest economies in Europe:

                         Luxembourg       Norway       Switzerland
GNP/capita               $34,200          $25,100      $27,100
Unemployment rate             3%               3%           3%
Industrial employment        23%              26%          31%
Services employment          76%              72%          66%

Switzerland, a world leader in the manufacture of timekeeping equipment
and precision machinery is the odd man out, with a whopping 31% of its
workers employed in industry. Nevertheless, it as well as the other two
rich countries have both been following the same type of trend as the
United States: phasing
out their less efficient [= low value added] branches of industry and
developing sophisticated service sectors.

Now, let's consider some countries that have low standards of living:

                        Russia     Ukraine   Mexico  Brazil    Botswana
GNP/capita              $4,200     $2,200    $8,500  $6,150    $3,900
Unemployment rate          12%         4%*       3%**    8%    20-40%
Industrial employment      39%        26%       29%     36%    46%***
Services employment        53%        62%       66%     50%    50%

Notes:
* Registered unemployed, the number of unemployed and underemployed people
is much higher
** Urban unemployed only
*** includes the 36% employed in extractive industries


All five of these countries have strong undustrial sectors but low
standards of living. With the exception of Mexico, which has recently
developed a highly efficient exports-oriented industry largely based on
American and Japanese technology, the industrial products of the other
four countries have a low degree of added value resulting from their
having a high degree of inefficiency inherited from "state capitalism"
(Russia and Ukraine), from their being aimed at duplicating at home what
could be done more cheaply and efficiently by importing inustrial products
(Brazil), or from their industrial activity being primarily oriented
towards
producing primarily raw materials which are exported and then imported
again as industrial products, with the value added elsewhere.

Technological sophistication making it possible to add maximum value to
raw materials, a work force well educated, disciplined, and healthy enough
to learn and improve these techniques, and a strong services sector
supporting industry and marketing its products worldwide appear to be the
elements that ensure a high standard of living. On the other hand a level
of technological sophistication enabling only the production of industrial
products that are neither better nor cheaper than those produced elsewhere
coupled with a services sector that is unable to upgrade the degree of
sophistication of industrial products leads to stagnation, low living
standards, and an economy whose ability to earn the money needed to import
necessary raw materials and the industrial products it is itself incapable
of producing, is largely restricted to exporting raw materials with little
or no value added and then importing them in the form of industrial goods,
or simply put, exporting logs and then using the money thus earned to
import cut lumber, toothpicks, and paper.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:05 EDT 2001
Article: 916740 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:22:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B35B6B1.93F79285@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You are not stupid but you are unable to see such a thing through through a
> whit
> man's eyes.
> You want a "rational" explanation for my objection. I am not going to giv you
> on
> bcaus I cannot. The difficulty does not come from the left-hemisphere brain;
> it
> comes from the gut.
> 
> ================

I don't think "seeing things through a white man's eyes" has anything
to do with the matter. You would be just as pissed off if your superior
were a white woman one generation your junior.

Funny how you and the kind you claim to represent are so strongly under
the control of your gut and the tickle in your balls. I'm happy that
the more civilized among us have evolved beyound that stage.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:06 EDT 2001
Article: 916815 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Nazi Doenitz -- Guilty!
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:36:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 41
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In article <3B35CECF.D9491D80@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Ladeez and Gentlemen:
> 
> Step right up this way and see the one. the only, the original Johann
> Sebastian
> Bot. He preaches, he pontificates, he expostulates -- but he never replies.
> 
> So overwhelmed am I that I have composed a Limerick in his honour.
> 
> A versatile drummer named Bloch
> Could beat the bass drum with his cockh
>    With a special erection
>    He could play a selection
> From Johann Sebastian Bach
> 
> ====================================


It doesn't work, since our prolific poster is Bot, not Bach.

Here's an attempt, admittedly not as formally elegant, but, with respct
to its content, more apposite, than yours:

A prolific young poster, Johann Bot,
Spammed newsgroups about Jewry shot,  
     Starved, tortured, and gassed
     By iniquitous Nazis long passed,
Whose heinous deeds we want to forget - Not!!!!!


Regards,
Eugene Holman


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:06 EDT 2001
Article: 916906 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Free trade versus Tariffs
Supersedes: <240620011920437374%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:43:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B35C859.23D74EB3@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

(Reposting, with slight additions and corrections)


> > > =================================
> >
> > Not necessarily in order of importance:
> >
> > 1. GNP/capita
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You use of this figure as a measure of overall economic well-being puts me in
> mind
> of the statistician who came upon a man with his head in a furnace and his
> feet in a
> bucket of ice-water.  The statistician thereupon estimated that, on average,
> the man
> ought to be reasonably comfortable.
> 
> THe notion of our being able to take ANY  single number as a measure of
> overall
> well-being is at best a silly one. Your use of per capita GNP informs me
> that, while
> you are a man of a certain length and of a certain width, you remain a man of
> very
> little depth. That per capita GNP is not a reliable measure is commonly known
> -- or
> at least I have always supposed it is commonly kmown. It becomes less
> reliable the
> more skewed income dintribution is.  THus while it serves as a tolerable
> first-guess
> measure for an egalitarian country like Japan, it is completely meabingless
> when
> applied to an America where the bosses make several hundred times what the
> ordinary
> worker makes.
> 
> Much better is the median figure which divides the country in two: half make
> more;
> half make less.
> 
> ==============================================

Your point you raise is cogent; America is known to be more
economically polarized - skewed - than most other western societies,
this being due to the fact that, compared to European countries,
America has astonishingly low taxation rates, but also a sytem of
government and structure of society that allow individuals to make
decisions concerning, and pay for, basic services such as education,
health care, and transportation which European governments provide as
public [= tax-paid] services. You pay $1.50 for a gallon of gas and a
few dollars for using tunnels, crossing bridges, using the better
highways. Most European countries have no road tolls (France and Italy
being exceptions), but we pay $4 to $5 for a gallon of gas as well as
high annual user fees for cars.

Even when a median figure is used, Americans come out with more
disposable income and raw buying power than Europeans have. On the
other hand, America has far more structural poverty and unsolved social
problems than Western European societies have due to a tradition of
racism, a tendency to throw money at social problems rather than making
long-term efforts to solve them, and a strong cultural preference for
individual rather than collective decision-making and responsibility.

> > 2. High employment level
> 
> ===============================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Well, certainly the unemployment level is nothing like it was during the
> early 30s
> but many suspect it is heading in that direction. But can we trust the
> government's
> numbers? All governments strive to make themselves look good. Did you know for
> example that. in compiling unmployment statistics, the govt does not even
> COUNT
> those who, in despair, have simply ceased looking.
> 
> =================================

In a large country like the US some unemployment is going to be
localized, as in West Virginia where it remains at the 15 to 20% level.
On the other hand, Americans are more mobile than Europeans and thus
not averse to pulling up stakes and moving to where the jobs are. The
want-ad section of any metropolitan newspaper is full of job offers.


> > 3. Decent wages
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Rubbish.
> 
> (1) The real wages of non-supervisory employees have DECLINED about 20% since
> th
> early 70s.

How do you calculate this?

> (2) Many believe that the real wages of retail help are roughly what they were
> during the Great Depression.

During the Great Depression those people were living from hand to
mouth. Now people in the same social class own their houses, drive late
model cars, have not one but usually several color televisions as well
as a washing machine, dishwasher, microwave oven and numerous other
modern, labor-saving gadgets. There is no comparison.

> (3) What is it that has forced wives by the millions into the job market but
> their
> husbands' loss of income. 

1. The quite justified desire on the part of women to have a
considerable degree of economic independence so that they will not be
socially marginalized or be thrust into poverty consequent to possible
marital breakdown, widowhood, or spinsterhood.
2. The fact that women tend to be better educated than men nowadays,
and they do not want to devote the best years of their lives solely to
homemaking.
3. The fact that in a more services-oriented economy, women's natural
skills and proclivities are an economic asset that it would be foolish
to waste.
4. Rising expectations that make many things that were regarded as
luxuries a generation or two ago standard attributes of lower
middle-class life nowadays: two cars, a home computer, several color
televisions and videos per family, stereo systems, CD-players,
walkmans, pocket calculators, home delivered food, microwave ovens,
electric toothbrushes, at least a few items of designer clothing,
expensive free-time activities for school-age children, etc., etc.

> And what kind of adults are their children likely
> to grow
> into under such conditions? A small detail th economists never think about.

European societies have survived and remained healthy for generations
with both parents working. In post-war Germany, Finland, and the USSR,
due to the substantial losses of young men, women succeeded quite well
on their own in combining careers and raising children. The willingness
of society to support women with children is reflected in social
policies such as generous child allowances and subsidized daycare. 

Americans were particularly privileged in the 1950s for families to be
able to maintain a middle-class lifestyle on the salary of a husband
with no particular qualifications, and of course one reason for this
was the virtual exclusion of certain groups (= women and visible
minorities) in society from these relatively high-paying,
low-qualification jobs, coupled with the fact that much of the
industrial capacity outside of the United States was in
ruins or oriented towards rebuilding war-battered societies and thus
not offering America much serious competition. This was an unusual
economic situation. Now America is much more similar to other developed
countries: the pool of people seeking the entry-level jobs is larger.
Women much more than visible minorities have been at the vanguard of
this development, thus, by their sheer numbers, forcing wages down to
some degree. More importantly, what is currently regarded as a lower
middle-class living standard and lifestyle requires two incomes. On the
other hand, jobs higher up inthe hierarchy provide handsome salaries
theoretically allowing for one-income families, even though there the
woman has an even greater incentive to secure her backside [no pun or
sexual harassment intended] so that her livestyle will not be
threatened by the possible loss of her husband. In short, breadwinner
no longer means husband. Welcome to the rest of the developed world!


> > 4. Affordable housing
> 
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Worse rubbish.
> 
> In the 1950s it was the usual thing for a man without higher education to
> marry, buy
> a house, and raise a family os his wages alone. Try that today.
> ===================================

Now you need a mortgage, as you did then. New housing for all income
groups is constantly being built in the US and little of it goes
abegging.

> >
> > 5. Quality public services
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> Yeah, sure. Like they have in Washington DC. Tell me about it.
> 
> =================================

A clean, modern subway... Efficient police and fire-fighting, fewer
potholes in the streets than some other cities I could mention. Crumby
public schools, though.

> > 6. A tolerable crime rate
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> The crime rate is NOT tolerable; it is INtolerable.
> 
> ==================================

That all depends on who's doing the tolerating. The American crime rate
has been going down during the past few years. As is the case in
Western Europe, a substantial and increasing proportion of the crimes
being committed is due to narcotics users and their willingness to do
just about anything to obtain the money for their next fix. Unlike
Western Europe, American crime rates are aggravated by a combination of
the ubiquitousness of firearms and lax gun control. That's a choice
that American society has made, and you are stuck with it.


> > 7. Virtually universal literacy
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Thanks to the stranglehold exercised by the dingle-dongs cranked by the
> schools of
> "education" we now have
> 
> a) Children who can't read or write their own language
> b) Children in whom basic arithmetic skills hav atrophied
> c) Employers who complain bitterly of these appalling deficiencies and, in
> many
> cases, have had no alternative to assuming th education function themselves.
> d) If public education is the roaring success you imply it is, then why the
> sudden
> popularity of home schooling?
> 
> =================================

Every generation seems to claim that their children and grandchildren
are dolts. Still we see them driving cars with complex and
sophisticated electronics, as well as using computers and other
recondite devices both as tools and as means of entertainment and
recreation. Although I appreciate and share your concern about what
appears to be a lowering of educational standards, I also accpet that
the knowledge and skills needed to secure a good job and income fifty
years ago are not necessarily those needed today or twenty years from
now. In elementary school my generation spent an inordinate amount of
time learning elementary arithmetic skills, particularly how to
multiply, divide, and decimalize fractions, skills important in a
country using the non-decimal based English system of measurements but
a decimal coinage. In a world of computers, pocket calulators built
into watches and mobile telephones, increased decimalization, credit
cards, and cash registers programmed to indicate the change due, these
skills are not as important as they used to be. 

Language also changes, and finer points of usage for which you and I
were severely castigated are now generally accepted in speech as well as
writing, e.g. "with you or I", "Everyone should remove their hats",
"That's me!".

> >
> > 8. Stable currency
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Kike Greenspan 

Tsk, tsk, tsk, such language, and from a Jew like yourself.

> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> is very watchful of the interests of the moneyed classes
> who look
> upon any inflation as entry into the pit of hell.
> 
> =============================================

Ask a Russian, a Ukrainian, or a Serb, all of which nations have seen
their life savings wiped out by hyperinflation during the past decade,
if it isn't.

> > 9. Equal opportunity based on proven competence and qualifications
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Pardon me, sir, but what you mean is MORE-than-equal opportunity based upon
> membership in one of the politically-favoured minorities.
> 
> =============================

Pardon me, sir, but only as partial compensation for decades of the
reverse practice. Nor should I remind you that the
"politically-favoured minority" to have benefited most from such
practices is _women_ of all races and ethnicities, who are, of course,
actually the majority.

> > 10. A high level of public health, negligible infant mortality, high life
> > expectancy
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> A major illness is, for any family not in the affluent catgory, certain
> financial
> disaster and remains their No.1 fear today.
> 
> =============================================================

Once again, that is your own choice. All developed countries except the
United States provide health insurance for their entire populations as
a public service. When Hillary Clinton took measures to initiate
development of a similar system for the US, the medical lobby and other
interests profiting from the current system - or lack thereof - made
disturbing rumblings about "socialized medicine" in the media,
scotching her plans. As is the case with guns, the problem of not
having tax-financed, universal health care is an onus the American
people has chosen to bear against sound advice and in spite of the
collected positive experience of other countries.

All in all, America, even if in some ways not the most pleasant or
easiest country in the world to live in, still has far and away the
highest overall living standards any large country has ever been able to
offer its populace.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:06 EDT 2001
Article: 917070 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Free trade versus Tariffs
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:00:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 717
Message-ID: <250620010000488122%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B3625A9.9635F85C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B35C859.23D74EB3@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Eugene Holman wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > > > =================================
> > > >
> > > > Not necessarily in order of importance:
> > > >
> > > > 1. GNP/capita
> > >
> > > =========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > You use of this figure as a measure of overall economic well-being puts
> > > me in
> > > mind
> > > of the statistician who came upon a man with his head in a furnace and his
> > > feet in a
> > > bucket of ice-water.  The statistician thereupon estimated that, on
> > > average,
> > > the man
> > > ought to be reasonably comfortable.
> > >
> > > THe notion of our being able to take ANY  single number as a measure of
> > > overall
> > > well-being is at best a silly one. Your use of per capita GNP informs me
> > > that, while
> > > you are a man of a certain length and of a certain width, you remain a
> > > man of
> > > very
> > > little depth. That per capita GNP is not a reliable measure is commonly
> > > known
> > > -- or
> > > at least I have always supposed it is commonly kmown. It becomes less
> > > reliable the
> > > more skewed income dintribution is.  THus while it serves as a tolerable
> > > first-guess
> > > measure for an egalitarian country like Japan, it is completely
> > > meabingless
> > > when
> > > applied to an America where the bosses make several hundred times what the
> > > ordinary
> > > worker makes.
> > >
> > > Much better is the median figure which divides the country in two: half
> > > make
> > > more;
> > > half make less.
> > >
> > > ==============================================
> >
> > Your point you raise is cogent; America is known to be more
> > economically polarized - skewed - than most other western societies,
> > this being due to the fact that, compared to European countries,
> > America has astonishingly low taxation rates, but also a sytem of
> > government and structure of society that allow individuals to make
> > decisions concerning, and pay for, basic services such as education,
> > health care, and transportation which European governments provide as
> > public [= tax-paid] services. You pay $1.50 for a gallon of gas and a
> > few dollars for using tunnels, crossing bridges, using the better
> > highways. Most European countries have no road tolls (France and Italy
> > being exceptions), but we pay $4 to $5 for a gollon of gas as well as
> > high annual user fees for cars.
> >
> > Even when a median figure is used, Americans come out with more
> > disposable income and raw buying power than Europeans have.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Care to show me those median figures? I have read that, for example, the
> wages of
> German industrial workers are higher than our own.
> 
> ===================

They are, however they are *much* more heavily taxed. Germans shoulder
one of the heaviest tax burdens in Europe, due to the extensive welfare
state, the crushing cost of reunification, and still ongoing pensions,
reparations, and compensation for the damage and mayhem caused by
Germany during WW II. According to the Federal Statistical Office
Germany (http://www.statistik-bund.de/basis/d/logh/loghtxt.htm), when
discussing German wages and salaries it is necessary to differentiate
between those earned in former West Germany and those earned in former
East Germany. In October 2000, for example, average monthly industrial
wages in former West Germany were DM 5,496 (= $2,363), and DM 3,892 (=
$1,678) in former East Germany (the exchange rate is DM 1 = $0.43).

1. The German employer pays more per hour to hire an industrial worker
than his American counterpart does, but a substantial part of this goes
for various employers' taxes and so-called social expenses;
2. The German employer receives less in his hand after taxes than his
American counterpart does. Of that after-tax income, a 16% value-added
tax is levied for all non-food purchases, food purchases having a
somewhat lower rate.
3. The cost of living in Germany is somewhat higher than in the United
States, owing, among other things, to the facts that houses are more
sturdily built, the country is far more urbanized, and the market is
substantially smaller than the American market, thus ensuring higher
prices for industrial products, but after-tax income is substantially
lower.
4. Germans get long paid annual vacations, usually 4 to 6 weeks.
5. German employers pay the health insurance of their employees
(Krankenkasse).
6. Germany provides free education (sadly to say, often of mediocre
quality; universities are scandalously overcrowded and the authorities
admit all qualified students, but do everything they can to ensure a
high dropout rate), free roads, and high quality, subsidized public
transportation.
7. Middle-class Germans still seem to be able to afford to buy
expensive foreign cars like Mercedes-Benz's and BMW's ;-)

> 
> > On the
> > other hand, America has far more structural poverty and unsolved social
> > problems than Western European societies have due to a tradition of
> > racism, a tendency to throw money at social problems rather than making
> > long-term efforts to solve them, and a strong cultural preference for
> > individual rather than collective decision making and responsibility.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> And you sitll maintain that our standard in the world's highest. Do those
> losers
> enter your calculations?
> 
> ======================================

Yes, they do. They are averaged out by the far larger number of
winners. No society is perfect. Germany has the problem of
re-integrating the former East Germany, where unemployment in some
places is as high as 40%. Russia is writhing in poverty. Living
standards in Spain, Portugal, and Greece are about 75% as high as those
in the UK or Italy and less than half of US living standards. Poland,
Hungary, and the Czech Republic are all recovering from communism but
still far behind Portugal and Greece. Latvia and Lithuania are not much
better off than Third World Romania or Bulgaria. Ukraine, Serbia, and
Moldava have living standards lower than those of some sub-Saharan
African countries, with Albania having a living standard about equal to
that of Haiti. Small (population wise) countries like the Netherlands,
Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden seem to have the most problem-free
societies in Europe, but we pay extremely high taxes to maintain a
society with few losers and living standards which, in terms of
GDP/capita, are about 2/3 of what you enjoy in America.


> >
> > In a large country like the US some unemployment is going to be
> > localized, as in West Virginia where it remains at the 15 to 20% level.
> > On the other hand, Americans are more mobile than Europeans and thus
> > not averse to pulling up stakes and moving to where the jobs are. The
> > want-ad section of any metropolitan newspaper is full of job offers.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Oh, and no doubt you think that "mobility" is a fine thing, yes? Factory just
> closed
> down? No great problem. Pick another city, another factory, pull up stakes,
> say
> goodbye to all friends and neighbors, sell the house, buy one in the next
> city and
> settle down there. Then THAT factory closes. Pull up stakes, say goodbye,
> sell the
> house etc, etc, etc. Is THAT the kind of society you want us to have, is that
> the
> kind of life you want people to have to lead. Perpetual change, perpetual
> turmoil,
> perpetual uprooting - all becaus your precious market economy says it has to
> be this
> way. Just what do you suppose makes for the basic strength and cohesiveness
> of a
> society? Suppose we had another major war. How much incentive will our young
> men
> have to defend that sort of society. What is going to motivate them:
> abstractions
> like "democracy?" Give me a break.
> 
> =====================================

You have a point, but mobility has always been a deeply ingrained,
indeed a defining feature of American culture. What kinds of people
formed the basis of the American people? Economic and political
refugees and migrants, and slaves forcibly removed from their
environments. What kinds of people provided the dynamics eventually
defined the country? People who were willing to uproot and move to the
ever westward-moving frontier. Did this internal mobility prevent the
country from having the cohesiveness to define and maintain a nation?
No.


> > > > 3. Decent wages
> > >
> > > ===================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Rubbish.
> > >
> > > (1) The real wages of non-supervisory employees have DECLINED about 20%
> > > since
> > > th
> > > early 70s.
> >
> > How do you calculate this?
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have read it from several different sources. I should think it is
> calculated from
> gross incomes , cost-of living indices, taxes. Allowances may be made for
> changes in
> paterns of consumption.
> 
> =================================
> 
> >
> >
> > > (2) Many believe that the real wages of retail help are roughly what they
> > > were
> > > during the Great Depression.
> >
> > During the Great Depression those people were living from hand to
> > mouth. Now people in the same social class own their houses, drive late
> > model cars, have not one but usually several color televisions as well
> > as other modern luxuries.
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> And nobody lives from hand-to-mouth today? You-re just too glib and
> superficial for
> my taste.
> 
> ======================

Hey, I've seen the face of poverty in places like Harlem today, and
I've seen it in the 1960s. Of course there are people still living from
hand to mouth, but the face of poverty of today has become gentrified.
There is certainly no comparison of the American poverty of the 1930's,
or even that of the 1960's, with the poverty of 2001.


> > 4. Rising expectations that make many things that were regarded as
> > luxuries a generation or two ago standard attributes of lower
> > middle-class life nowadays: two cars, a home computer, several color
> > televisions and videos per family, stereo systems, CD-players,
> > walkmans, pocket calculators, home delivered food, microwave ovens,
> > electric toothbrushes, at least a few items of designer clothing,
> > expensive free-time activities for school-age children, etc., etc.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> It i true that a great many women hav entered the job market for these
> reasons and
> it is no less true that a great many from mid to low strata have entered it
> only so
> the family can continue to enjoy the very modest scale they had before the
> husband
> eith was forced into a lower-paying job or even has ceased hoping for another.
> 
> =====================================================
> 
> >
> >
> > > And what kind of adults are their children likely
> > > to grow
> > > into under such conditions? A small detail th economists never think
> > > about.
> >
> > European societies have survived and remained healthy for generations
> > with both parents working. In post-war Germany, Finland, and the USSR,
> > due to the substantial losses of young men, women succeeded quite well
> > on their own in combining careers and raising children. The willingness
> > of society to support women with children is reflected in social
> > policies such as generous child allowances and subsidized daycare.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> As to the extent of working Moms in europe and its effect on children, I
> prefer to
> withhold judgment until I get the poop from a source less determined to win an
> argument.

Fine with me. Note that I was talking specifically about European
countries which suffered extremely heavy losses among the male
population due to the war. There was no other choice but for women to
work: there was a severe shortage of men, any men.

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> In any event, a woman's place is with her children.  If a woman enters the job
> markeh because the system forces her to, then the ssem will have to be
> changed. If
> she enters it bcause she chooses to. then her attituds will hav to b changed.
> 
> ==============================================
> 
> >
> >
> > Americans were particularly privileged in the 1950s for families to be
> > able to maintain a middle-class lifestyle on the salary of a husband
> > with no particular qualifications, and of course one reason for this
> > was the virtual exclusion of certain groups (= women and visible
> > minorities)
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You sure love to call forth tears for past "injustices." By now you ought to
> know
> just how smpathetir I am to pleas of that sort.
> 
> =============================
> 
> > in society from these relatively high-paying,
> > low-qualification jobs, coupled with the fact that much of the
> > industrial capacity outside of outside of the United States was in
> > ruins or oriented towards rebuilding war-battered societies and thus
> > not offering America much serious competition. This was an unusual
> > economic situation. Now America is much more similar to other developed
> > countries: the pool of people seeking the entry-level jobs is larger.
> > Women much more than visible minorities having been at the vanguard of
> > this development, thus forcing wages down to some degree, and what is
> > currently regarded as a lower middle-class living standard and
> > lifestyle requires two incomes. On the other hand, jobs higher up in
> > the hierarchy provide handsome salaries theoretically allowing for
> > one-income families, even though there the woman has an even greater
> > incentive to secure her backside [no pun or sexual harassment intended]
> > so that her livestyle will not be threatened by the possible loss of
> > her husband. In short, breadwinner no longer means husband. Welcome to
> > the rest of the developed world!
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene I was only making the point that the ordinary white man was in many
> ways much
> btter off in the 50s than he is today. I was not asking for an in-depth
> analyis of
> the sociological factors involved.
> 
> ==============================

It's important to realize that those fat days of yore were the result
of extraordinary and probably unique cicumstances: America was the only
industrial power whose production capacity remained intact. It could
demand anything it wanted on the international market for its products
and, by artificially restricting access to the work force, it could pay
extraordinarily high wages to people with no special qualifications.
These factors have been rectified. To some degree the advantages it had
in the 1950s have been cancelled out by the state-of-the art factories
Germany and Japan acquired by necessity. America now has competition,
and the barriers restricting access to the workforce have been removed.

Ordinary white men are one of many minorities in American society. They
have no first claim on the goodies.

> > > > 4. Affordable housing
> > >
> > > ===================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Worse rubbish.
> > >
> > > In the 1950s it was the usual thing for a man without higher education to
> > > marry, buy
> > > a house, and raise a family os his wages alone. Try that today.
> > > ===================================
> >
> > Now you need a mortgage, as you did then. New housing for all income
> > groups is constantly being built in the US and little of it goes
> > abegging.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Possibly so but the fact remains that 50 years ago an ordinary white man with
> no
> specialized traning could, on his pay alone, buy a house and raise a family.
> Let him
> try it today. We call it 'Progress.'
> 
> ========================

Nowadays even a single mother can find a way to house her family in a
manner that does not force her child/ren to suffer for her mistake or
misfortune. I call that progress.


> > > =================================
> >
> > A clean, modern subway... Efficient police and fire-fighting, fewer
> > potholes in the streets than some other cities I could mention. Crumby
> > public schools, though.
> 
> ===============================
> Phillips
> 
> Ain't the way I heard it. To wit: that under Hizzoner Marion Barry, public
> services
> had become a disaster. Yes i know. These are not things you want to hear
> about.
> 
> ==============

I have friends in the Finnish diplomatic service who travel to
Washington DC regularly. Although they are generally not impressed by
the city as a whole, they regularly praise the subway (far better than
the one in New York) and the general aspect of the central part of the
city. That's right, not all people in the diplomatic service have
access to chauffeured limosines or unlimited taxi service.


> > > > 6. A tolerable crime rate
> > >
> > > =======================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > The crime rate is NOT tolerable; it is INtolerable.
> > >
> > > ==================================
> >
> > That all depends on who's doing the tolerating. The American crime rate
> > has been going down during the past few years. As is the case in
> > Western Europe, a substantial and increasing amount of the crime is due
> > to narcotics users and their willingness to do just about anything to
> > obtain the money for their next fix. Unlike Western Europe, American
> > crime rates are aggravated by a combination of the ubiquitousness of
> > firearms and lax gun control. That's a choice that American society has
> > made, and you are stuck with it.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene, will you ever cease going to such outlandish lengths to make simple
> things
> complicated. The crime rate is intolerable.
> 
> ==========================================

So, when's the last time you were the victim of a crime? And why do all
indices show a marked reduction in crime over the past few years?


> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> No? What could POSSIBLY be more important in the computer age than the
> ability to
> read a manual - moreover a manual, like as not, poorly wrtten.

The ability to navigate through the hypertext instructions which
replaced many printed manuals.

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What could possibly be more important than sufficient literacy to write a
> trouble
> report.
> 
> And you tell me that with calculators we no longer need basic arithmetic
> skils -
> right?
> Well suppose you make a gross keystroking error. Without basic numeracy
> skills how
> are you going to have a clue whether the answer makes any sense. Or suppose
> you left
> your calculator at home and you need an answer. What then?
> ========================================

I didn't say you don't need these skills. I said they are not as
central as they once were because they are being replaced by other
sklills which are increasing in importance.


> > > > 8. Stable currency
> > >
> > > ===================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > The Kike Greenspan is very watchful of the interests of the moneyed
> > > classes
> > > who look
> > > upon any inflation as entry into the pit of hell.
> > >
> > > =============================================
> >
> > Ask a Russian, a Ukrainian, or a Serb, all of which nations have seen
> > their life savings wiped out by hyperinflation during the past decade,
> > if it isn't.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Federal Reserve has vast leverage to pursue either a tight money policy
> or an
> expansionist, neither of which ential the slightest risk of hyperinflation.
> 
> Serbia has gone through a series of bitter civil wars and was broken up in the
> process. Also,  it has had its infrastructure wrecked by "our boys" in the US
> Air
> Force. We, mercifully, have been spared that, so why drag in a bogeyman.
> 
> Both Russia and the Ukraine have been going through wrenching transitions
> involving
> a revolutionary change of system ending up in vrtually heir ntire countries
> endng up
> in the hands of criminal gangs. S what in you point in dragging in THIS
> bogeyman?
> 
> You tell me to ask a Serb, a Russian, or a Ukrainian. I prefer to ask an
> unemployed
> American worker whose expectations have been blighted by Kike Greenspan's
> tight
> money policy.
> 
> ======================================
>
> > > > 9. Equal opportunity based on proven competence and qualifications
> > >
> > > ================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Pardon me, sir, but what you mean is MORE-than-equal opportunity based
> > > upon
> > > membership in one of the politically-favoured minorities.
> > >
> > > =============================
> >
> > Pardon me, sir, but only as partial compensation for decades of the
> > reverse practice.
> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Save your historic grievances for a more sympathetic ear. White people don't
> owe a
> damn thing to anybody.
> 
> ========================================
> 
> > Nor should I remind you that the
> > "politically-favoured minority" to have benefited most from such
> > practices is _women_ of all races and ethnicities, who are, of course,
> > actually the majority.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> A woman's place is in the home. The fewer fast-track career girls we have th
> better.
> 
> ==================================

All over the world, including the so-called Third World, women are
surpassing men in educational attainments. That's one of the reasons
that men with no particular educational achievements have a difficult
time finding a job.


> >
> > Once again, that is your own choice. All developed countries except the
> > United States provide health insurance for their entire populations as
> > a public service. When Hillary Clinton took measures to initiate
> > development of a similar system for the US, the medical lobby and other
> > interests profiting from the current system - or lack thereof - made
> > disturbing rumblings about "socialized medicine" in the media,
> > scotching her plans. As is the case with guns, the problem of not
> > having tax-financed, universal health care is an onus the American
> > people has chosen to bear against sound advice and in spite of the
> > collected positive experience of other countries.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I was never a fan of the Clintons' but on that isue they were right.
> 
> In any case, horse me no horsehit about our high level of public health.
> Americans
> are close to being the most disease-ridden of all industrialized countries.
> 
> Why else are uppies and downies swallowed by the ton?
> 
> =============================

Because they are the legalized side of a culture that is heavily into
mind-altering substances.

> > All in all, America, even if in some ways not the most pleasant or
> > easiest country in the world to live in, still has far and away the
> > highest overall living standards a large country has ever been able to
> > offer its populace.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Victory by self-proclamation is a fairly common thing here.
> 
> Your claim that we have the highest standard of living falls apart on tow
> separate
> counts.
> 
> (1) The notion that per capita GNP can be taken as a measure of general
> well-being.
> I would have expected that you, wth your claim to being an individual of
> discernment, would have known better. The fallacy was succintly and
> beautifully
> illustrated by the report of an (I think) State Department official who was
> assigned
> to visit Brazil and report on conditions there. The gist of his report was: "
> Brazil
> is doing very well but Brazilians aren't."
> 
> (2) A far worse mistake is to imagine that the thing can even BE denominated
> in
> terms purely of present income. Just exactly how high a standard of living is
> enjoyed by a man with --say-- a 60K or 70K income when he can never permit
> himself
> to forget that it could disappear tomorrow. It doesn't take much: a computer
> keystroke in Tokyo or Brussels (welcome to the Global economy), a board of
> directors
> keen to move to sunny Mexico far from pesky labour unions and health and
> safety
> regulations, or an inspiration of some eager-beaver MBA keen to earn brownie
> points
> by turning in  "good quarterly numbers" - never mind the human AND
> organizational
> disaster that results. You see, a life lived in an American type market
> economy is a
> life lived in fear.And a man who must live his life in fear does not enjoy the
> world's highest standard of living; he doesn't even enjoy a high one. A small detail
> your economists never think about.
> 
> (3) The notion of standard of living necessarily includes other factors that are not
> strictly material ones. A sense of pride, of dignity, of a position of respect in
> one's comunity. A highly-skilled machinist in the 50s or 60s had all of these
> things. A hamburger flipper or supermarket checkout clerk does not.
> 
> (4) The notion of standard of living must also include things like the sort of city

***********************

Having lived and worked in several countries, including one which was
definitely third world (Ukraine in 1994, average wages $20 to $30 a
month, when they were paid at all), I appreciate what you are saying.
Nevertheless, money means the power to make choices, and that's in area
in which America and its market economy have no equals.

What country, in your opinion, has a higher or more desirable standard
of living than the US has today? For my own personal reasons, I myself
chose a country like Finland or Sweden for being more desirable, not
for having a higher standard of living than the US has, which neither
does. They both have material standards of living only about 2/3 of
what you have in the US, wages being lower and taxes (e.g. 22%
value-added tax on non-food, 8% on food) and living costs being higher.
With much smaller, less diversified, and export driven economies we are
more vulnerable to hiccoughs in the global economy than you are. The
economic stability you crave certainly does not exist here - Finland
had an 18% unemployment rate for several years as a consequence of the
collapse of the USSR and of the industries which manufactured for the
Soviet market, and the shakeout of family farmers and rationalization
of agriculture which accompanied accession to the European Community.
The main difference between living here and in the United States is
that the welfare state is committed to ensuring that everyone has at
least a lower-middle class living standard: being unemployed is not the
kind of catatrophe it would be in the United States because of a more
highly developed concept of societal responsibility. This is not a
consequence of any "National Socialism" but a simple consequence of the
realization that people will die in this severe climate if they are
temporarily in a situation where they are incapable of helping
themselves. All the more so if they are dependent on adults for their
welfare.

Regards,
Eugene Holman












> a man lives in. Are the buildings built to a human scale and are they agreeable to
> the human eye (as they generally are in  Europe) or are they glass and concrete
> high-rises designed with no ends in view other than those of maximizing return on
> investment and tax revenue per square foot of ground space.
> 
> (5) The notion of standard of living also has much to do with the sort of people
> with whom we must rub shoulders with in our public spaces. Are the facial types
> familiar to us; are the sounds in our own language.
> 
> =======================================
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:07 EDT 2001
Article: 917080 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:18:46 +0300
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In article <3B362B76.4C07D595@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Have you now? It is a fact that a substantial number of young white girls (by
> no means all of them social rejects) acutally prefer a black feller for a
> roll in the hay. If we lay aside the factors of superior physiques and
> superior artillery (both of which I believe to be operative)
> there would still remain the fact that black fellers have refused to allow
> themselves to be psychically castrated by the forces of democracy,
> capitalism, and feminism. All these forces (and they are extremely powerful)
> combine to demand of the white male that he be "nice." Black men will have
> none of this.
> 
> =====================================

My God, where do you dredge up such crap? Some young white girls would
like to have a roll in the hay with a black "feller" because premarital
sex is now the norm, interracial relationships are now socially
acceptable although recently still forbidden fruit, and they are now
allowed to be sexual predators - the PC term being "explore their
sexuality" - just as men have always been [mutatis mutandis, that
little itch]. Others do it for the even simpler and more universal
reason that they find a person attractive and congenial, with race not
being a factor. 

As to physiques and artillery, well every black isn't a football
player, and the artillary ranges from the sawed off shotgun to the
bazooka, just as with other group of men. The class of black "fellers"
you are talking about, mean, macho, and untamed, are a small minority
among American black males as a group, and they are the least likely to
be in a position to establish any kind of relationship with young white
girls. The places where such relationships are typically established
are universities, art museums, and the type of drinking and
entertainment establishment your stereotypical ghetto "feller" is
hardly going to be spending time in. Black men, more than white men,
are constrained to be "nice" more than white men are if they want to be
accepted into mainstream American middle class society. A single slip
up and both white and black middle class society will escort you to the
exit. This is one thing I know from personal experience, having grown
up in the United States and understanding from an early age what the
stakes were.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:07 EDT 2001
Article: 917087 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:27:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B362BEA.3234BAED@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> > Because workers in nations competing with yours will be continually
> > upgrading their skills and productivity. If your workers fail to do the
> > same, they will soon find that there is no work for them to do.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Why will they find this?
> 
> ===============

Ask any of the make-work, inefficient industrial workers laid off in
the former USSR and East Germany what happened when economic reality
hit their factories. Six people were doping jobs that one person could
do, and the products they were producing were often worth less than the
raw materials that went into making them. Why do you think Aeroflot
dumped so many of its Ilyushin and Tupolev aircrafts for Boeings as
soon as purchasing them became possible? It was because Soviet-made
aircraft were several technological generations behind American
aircraft, making them more difficult to fly, and notorious fuel
guzzlers, making their operating costs unjustifiably high.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:08 EDT 2001
Article: 917319 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:58:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 139
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In article <3B365E5C.DE01B398@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The American TV industry, VCR industry, motorcycle industry, earth-moving
> equipment industry plus a dozen others that could be mentioned --these
> industries were not destroyed by our CLOSING our doors to foreign products but
> by our OPENING them.
> 
> There are two questions here: labour costs and technology. We'll take them in
> that order.
> 
> Suppose Japan or Mexico or some other country figure out a way to make TVs
> with
> only half the hours of labour. So what? All it will mean is that THEY will
> have
> the problem of finding alternative work for the displaced TV workers. it will
> be their problem, not ours. We will just go on being content with the 100%
> American sets.

In the real world things haven't worked out that way. Forgetting Japan,
let's consider Mexico. Mexico did figure out a way to produce
state-of-the-art television sets with labor costs and input
considerably lower than anything American manufacturers could compete
with. Instead of this development making the Mexican workforce
redundant, American manufacturers quit making televisions, an admission
that the Mexicans were more efficient producers, and bought their
televisons from Mexico ensuring that the Mexican television workers
would have jobs _for as long as they could maintain the competitive
edge_. Mexico's television workers thus kept their jobs, but the
television workers in America them suffered one of two fates: 1.
redundancy, 2. retraining so that they could make the more
sophisticated products such as computer displays and diagnostic imaging
equipment which the more savvy former television factories began to
make.

The secret of success in a capitalist market is _adding value to raw
materials_. Given a certain amount of plastic, glass, and metal, I can
use it to manufacture televisions, with added value of X%, computer
displays, with added value of 10X%, or diagnosting imaging equipment (=
DIE) with added value of 50X%. If all of my competitors are able to
manufacture TVs, and need, but are unable to produce the more
sophisticated displays and DIE, it makes more economic sense for me to
leave manufacturing the TVs to them and purchase them in exchange for
my displays and DIE. When the Mexicans figure out how to make dispalys
and DIEs, American manufacturers, if they have kept on the ball, will
have figured out how to add still more value to their glass, plastic,
and metal, thus maintaining the technological edge.

Finland's most famous company, Nokia, is a good example of this
development. Twenty years ago its main product was rubber boots, which
represented something like $1,000/ton in added value [the difference
between the purchase price of the rubber and the wholesale price for
the boots]. Now Finland imports rubber boots from Estonia and other
countries, and Nokia has gone on to producing extremely sophisticated
mobile telephones, with added value in the range of $15,000/ton. Why
manufacture boots, which anybody can do, if you can manufacture
state-of-the-art mobile phones, which only a few manufacturers can do?


> =========================================
> Phillips
>
> Libertarians will demand their "right" to the cheaper foreign
> TVs. And we will say to them: fine; you want a cheaper Jap TV. No problem:
> just
> hand in your citizenship and emigrate there. We can get along fine without
> you.

It's not a matter of cheapness. It's a matter of rationalizing the
marketplace. Concentrate on doing what you can do best, and use the
profits thus earned to purchase stuff that mid-income countries with a
relatively low grade of technological sophistication are producing.

> =========================================
> Phillips
>  
> Technology. Oh, Eugene, once again you are trying to scare Dick Phillips with
> your Russian bogeyman. You should have learned better by now. The  backward
> state of Russian technology is the accumulated consequence of centuries of
> tradition, culture, and character. The deadening hand of Stalinist Communism
> is
> one of those factors but only one.
> 
> America has ITS traditions, ITS culture, ITS character and all of them are
> utterly different from those of Russia. You conjure up black visions of all of
> this suddenly going by the board merely because an American government decides
> to pursue a very different coarse in its rlations with industry. I promise you
> solemnly it will not -- PROVIDED  we stop doing damn fool things like allowing
> domestic industries to be destroyed by imports which result in factories
> shutting down and skills accumulated over centuries  being thrown to the
> winds.
> 
> I once more remind you that, during the 19th century, when foreign competition
> was negligible, American induntry did not stagnate technlogically; it led the
> world.
> 
> =======================================

You really don't understand, Richard. The problem with Soviet industry
was _not_ your Russian technology thing, but rather a consequence of
the way work is organized under communism. East Germany and
Czechoslovakia, the latter with most of her industrial infrastructure
surviving the war, surely not the heirs of a backward industrial
culture, suffered from the same problems.

The communist organization of industry strove to achieve the same
objectives that interest you: a protected economy, high wages, job
stability, stagnant technology. Protection from foreign and domestic
competition by onerous import tariffs and internal monopolization meant
that there was no incentive to upgrade industrial products or
processes, for which reason the amount of value added constantly
diminished as the world prices for the imported raw materials needed
for manufacturing rose. For many factories the products manufactured
were fit only to be delivered to the local dump: they had a market
value lower than the price of the raw materials and labor that had been
used to make them. Industrial wages were maintained artificially high
by the government's monopoloy over both the internal value of the
currency and of wage scales, which had no relationship to the value of
labor input. Worker morale was low ("Sit or stand, you make two
grand.") Of course there was little worth buying, and the currency was
worth about a tenth of its "official" value on the black market, the
real marketplace ("We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us").
Job stability was excellent: workers didn't have to upgrade their
talents, and industrial tasks were divided up into subcomponents, so
that several workers were performing tasks that could have been done
more efficiently by a single one.

This is not a "Russian bogeyman". This is the way workers were being
"protected" and jobs were being "maintained" under an economic system
where the state, rather than market forces, controls the economy. The
benefits of this economic model, to use a rather crude bit of Finnish
folk wisdom, are similar to those of peeing in your pants to keep warm
on a cold winter's day.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:08 EDT 2001
Article: 917346 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian (Was: Are monarchies - thrash?)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:17:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 161
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In article <9h6rcb$cbfnb$1@ID-2529.news.dfncis.de>, Peter Z. Zsombolyay
 wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:37:31 +0200, serse@diku.dk (Per Erik Ronne)
> wrote:
> 
> >Lots of people outside the Nordic countries simply don't understand the
> >difference between the Nordic countries [which includes Finland] and the
> >Scandinavian countries [which excludes Finland].
> 
> It seems to me, you are not simply able to understand the difference
> among the political, geografical and linguistical grouping of the
> Scandinavian countries.
> 
> The Nordic countries are: Russia, the Baltic Countries (Estonia,
> Lithuania and Latvia) and the Scandinavian countries (which INcludes
> Finland).

In a geographical sense perhaps. In a geopolitical sense they are
Iceland, Norway,. Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, all of which are
interlinked by various cultural, historical, linguistic, and legal
ties.

> 
> The Scandinavian languages (common known as well: nordic german
> languages) include: Norwegian, Swedish, Icelandic and 
> Danish.

In a genealogical sense, yes (and you should have included Faroese).
Finnish, although neither Germanic nor Indo-European, has evolved in a
symbiotic relationshsip with the Scandinavian languages and their
Germanic predecessors for more than 3,000 years. Its sound system,
sentence structure, vocabulary, and phraseology have all been
profoundly influenced by Scadnianvain, particularly Swedish. You can't
really understand the big picture if you do not consider the importance
of areal and contact relationships, which make Finnish and Swedish,
particularly Finland-Swedish, the variety of Swedish spoken in the
traditionally Swedish-speakin areas of Finland, far closer to one
another than one would suspect upon superficial inspection.

 
> BTW: just because we are talking about this in the Hungarian (magyar)
> soc.culture.magyar NewsGroup, the Finish language is related to the
> Hungarian: both of them belong to the Finno-Ugric [some people say in
> Hungary: "fingo-ugro" :-)> ] language-family.

But the relationship is distant, and of little practical value:

Finnish         Hungarian
puu             fa            'tree'
talvi           tél           'winter'
käsi            kéz           'hand, arm'
kala            hal           'fish'
veri            vér           'blood'
silmä           szem          'eye'
mene-           men-          'go'
neljä           négy          'four'


Scandinavian has given Finnish a substantial part of its basic
vocabulary:

Finnish         Germanic       Swedish
kaunis          *kauniz        skön             'beautiful'
rikas           *rikaz         rik              'rich'
viisas          *vîsaz         vis              'wise'
lasi            *glas-         glas             'glass'
ranta           *strandaz      strand           'shore, cf. strand'
sairas          *sairas        sår              'sick, cf. sore'
äiti            *ethi          (Gothic aithei)  'mother'
patja           *badja(n)      bädd             'mattress, cf. bed'
ja              *jah           (Gothic jah)     'and'
kallio          *hallja        häll             'boulder'
rauta           *rauda         röd              'F iron, S red'
nauta           *nauda         nöd              'cattle, cf. neat'
miekka          *mêka          (Gothic meki)    'sword'
tarvi-          *darb-         tarv             'need'
katu            *gata          gata             'street, cf. gate
olut            *oluth-        öl               'beer, cf. ale'
laukka          *lauka         lök              'onion, cf. leak'
haukka          *hauka         hök              'hawk'
kuva            *skuwa         skugga           'picture, shadow'

Additionally, it has served as the bridge through Finnish has borrwed
words from other languages:

Finnish         Swedish
kirahvi         giraff      'giraffe'
tiikeri         tiger       'tiger'
appelsiini      appelsin    'orange'
suklaa          chokolad    'choclate'
sokeri          socker      'sugar'
kahvi           kaffe       'coffee'
paperi          papper      'paper'
kuvernööri      guvernör    'governer'
musiikki        musik       'music'
matematiikka    matematik   'mathematics'
tohteri         dokter      'docter'
tomaatti        tomat       'tomato'
peruna          päron       'F potato, F pear'
päärynä         päron       'pear'
kahveli         gaffel      'fork'
hunsvotti       hundsfott   'rascal, cf. Germ. Hundsfott 'dog's cunt'
viina           (bränn)vin  'liquor'
viini           vin         'wine'
parleerata      parlera     'to speak (slang or humorous)
fraseerata      frasera     'to phrase'
paseerata       passera     'to pass time'
lanseerta       lansera     'to introduce'

It has been the primary lexical source for informal Finnish:

Finnish         Swedish
fyrkka          fyrk        'money'
huusi           hus         'ouhouse'
fönari          fönster     'window'
tsiigata        kika        'to look'
tsitata         sitta       'to sit'
renki           dräng       'farmhand'
piika           piga        'servant girl'
vittu           fitta       'cunt'
puoti           bod         'shop'
faija           far         'dad'
muori           mor         'mother'
systeri         syster      'sister'
broidi          bror/broder 'brother
famu            farmor      'paternal grandmother'
döftis          döft        'stink'
handu           hand        'hand'


And it has influenced the semantic development of Finnish words and
phrases, e.g. lehti 'leaf', now has a secondary meaning 'periodical',
cf. Swedish blad 'leaf, periodical'. The adjective selvä, originally
meaning 'clear', has acquired the meaning 'finished, ready' under
influence of Swedish klar 'clear, finished', cf. Är du klar? 'Have you
finished [e.g. using the copying machine], Oletko selvä?

> 
> On the Scandinavian peninsula you can find only Sweden and Norway, but
> NOT Danemark and Finland.

Culture does not respect geography. 

> 
> >Just as lots of English-speaking people don't know the difference
> >between a kayak [the Eskimoic one] and a canoe [the Indian one].
> 
> This is offtopic here.
> 
> The widespread, common known Scandinavian countries are (politically):
> Sweden, Norway, Danemark and Finland.
> ====================================

Hey, don't forget Iceland!

All five belong to the Nordic Council which works to consolidate and
reinforce Scandinavian identity and cooperation.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:08 EDT 2001
Article: 917352 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sara Salzman Licks Her Dog's Cock After He Fucks Her In The Twat
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:21:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 7
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In article <20010625112004.9822.qmail@nym.alias.net>, lcs Mixmaster
Remailer  wrote:

Nothing. But his thread title was really a pretty foul thing to write.

No regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:09 EDT 2001
Article: 917414 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:15:17 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <250620011815172861%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B39D9AC@MailAndNews.com> <3B31A38B.79313590@pop.mindspring.com> <4bc3e2e1.0106211024.dd684da@posting.google.com>  <3B323280.619A655F@earthlink.net>  <3B32C9CF.6EEB978E@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0106221139.4ee2fa4b@posting.google.com>  <3B34343F.A8AEF1D2@earthlink.net>  <3B34A318.195D4530@earthlink.net>  <3B34C267.C6AC85CE@earthlink.net>  <3B34E914.19A14B02@earthlink.net>  <3B35B6B1.93F79285@earthlink.net>  <3B362BEA.3234BAED@earthlink.net> <250620010027425195%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B365E5C.DE01B398@earthlink.net> <250620010958516256%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B37286B.85B75649@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B37286B.85B75649@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Well OF COURSE things didn't work out "that way." We were stupid enough to
> perlmit
> the sale of Mexican made TVs in our own country.
> 
> I might add that I've had my bellyfull of unworldly academics who, from the
> protected cocoon of their tenured positions, not only think it's entirely
> right and
> proper that white Americans should be obliged to compete for jobs with
> Mexicans
> willing to work for a tenth the wage, but also have the bloody gall to
> criticize the
> Americans for being 'inefficient."

If, given the same raw materials, the Mexicans can make a television of
comparable quality to the one produced by Americans without using child
labor, sweatshops, or other unfair practices, for one tenth the price
of what it costs to make them in the United States, then who is being
inefficient?

> ====================================
> Phillips
>  
> Well I've got your number, mister. All this  gives you a big hard-on because
> deep,
> deep down you hate Whitey and feel it's a fine thing if he is brought down a
> peg or
> two. You'll deny it of course but it's useless. Phillips is not to be fooled.
> 
> ===================================================================

Sorry, I don't see it in racial terms. America has a much greater
industrial potential and a far better educated population than Mexico
has - for the time being. The only way for it to prosper and maintain
an edge is by ensuring that it can make the DIEs, jet fighters, and
cutting-edge computers that no-one can duplicate, while leaving the kid
stuff like making television sets to those incapable of making anything
more sophisticated. 

The fastest way to bring anybody done "a peg or to" is to allow workers
to bask in the glory of their "superiority" and to pay them far more
than they are worth. That was the mistake communist industry with its
make work, funny money, monopolies, and protected markets made, and we
all know the consequences.

You want to regard the advantages that American and other highly
advanced countries have over a middle income country such as Mexico as
a genetically determined right. Well, it ain't so. Mexicans can learn
just like the next guy, and if America doesn't keep trailblazing,
somebody else is going to take over that function. Colonialism and some
rather nasty episodes of genocide have given people of North-European
origin, and those who have come under their penumbra like you and
myself,  same cushy advantages over the rest of the world. We are now
living in a post colonial world where the second generation of
Mexicans, Chinese, Africans, and others have learned the ropes and are
tuning up to give the West a real run for their money. No more José 
the sombreroed, siestaing Mexican who sells you logs to buy them back
mañana as paper.

If new and difficult-to-replicate-ways of adding value to raw materials
are not found, the Mexicans will be making DIEs, jet fighters and many
other things, while your folks will still be competing with the
Kenyans, the Bhutanese, and the Albanians making overpriced television
sets.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:10 EDT 2001
Article: 917486 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:36:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <250620012136057493%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B39D9AC@MailAndNews.com>  <3B323280.619A655F@earthlink.net>  <3B32C9CF.6EEB978E@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0106221139.4ee2fa4b@posting.google.com>  <3B34343F.A8AEF1D2@earthlink.net>  <3B34A318.195D4530@earthlink.net>  <3B34C267.C6AC85CE@earthlink.net>  <3B34E914.19A14B02@earthlink.net>  <3B35B6B1.93F79285@earthlink.net>  <3B362BEA.3234BAED@earthlink.net> <250620010027425195%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B365E5C.DE01B398@earthlink.net> <250620010958516256%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B37286B.85B75649@earthlink.net> <250620011815172861%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B375B29.EE0363D8@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B375B29.EE0363D8@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===============================
> Phillips
> 
> It is not my intention that we compete with anybody. I say again that you
> have lost
> sight of th reason why we HAVE industries.
> 
> ===========================================

We have industries for at least the following seven reasons:
1. To provide a certain, diminishing, proportion the citizenry with
jobs;
2. To provide the agricultural sector with a market for its products;
3. To provide a certain, increasing, sector with the opportunity to
develop new industrial techniques, train the industrial force how to
implement them, and distribute, market, publicize, design, finance, and
otherwise support the efficient and profit-generating manufacture of
industrial products;
4. To manufacture products fit for sale on the domestic market;
5. To manufacture products fit for sale on the international market in
order to earn the money needed to pay for the raw materials that are
needed by domestic industry but are unavailable at home
6. To manufacture products that we can manufacture more efficiently
than other countries fit to sell on the international market to earn
the money needed to pay for products that other countries can
manufacture more efficiently or to superior quality standards than we
can.
7. To manufacture as many products as possible that have a high enough
degree of added value between the cost of the raw materials and the
cost of the finished product to justify paying good wages to the
workers possessing the skills necessary to produce them.

You refuse to recognize 7, but 7 is the key reason that a country has
industries. You would artificially close the market, and have the
economy focus mostly on 4, manufacturing products with a low degree of
added value. You refuse to acknowledge that this was precisely the
economic strategy followed by the communist governments of Eastern
Europe, all of which, including such once formidable economic
powerhouses as the eastern part of Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Latvia,
which produced dirigibles, state-of-the-art cameras, optical equipment,
and airplanes before the war, all became economic basketcases.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:10 EDT 2001
Article: 917558 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Supersedes: <250620012330189665%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:53:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <250620012353444247%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B377B8B.D130E5DE@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Fair challenge. I'll try to do the best I can, which may not be good enough.
> 
> Eugene does carry a very large racial chip on his shoulder, though he does a
> fair job of concealing it behind a facade of erudition and civility. He does
> not express his hostility by shouting "Motherfucker." That is not his style.
> He DOES express it by
> 
> a) Losing no opportunity to remind us of past "injustices"

The injustices are a fact, they were not a simple matter of one race
vs. another, and there is reason to discuss those that are discussible
and rectify those that are rectifiable. When I started discussion of
this issue long ago I made it clear that I am dead against the idea of
cash transfers, and that this issue is far too complex to be seen in
the white vs. black shades in which you like to simplistically paint
them and attribute to me, conveniently forgetting that I am the
verified descendant of both slaves and slave-owners. 

Neither should we forget that this is a essentially a Holocaust
discussion group. Strange how on the point of Hitlerite Germany's
having verifiably invaded and trashed fifteen-odd countries, killing
millions of their citizens to assuage its own neuroses and plundering
billions of dollars worth of assets from these unfortunates in the
process, you, once again, prefer to deny or deprecate past
"injustices".


> ==========================================
> Phillips
>
> b) Losing no opportunity to say in effect: "Whitey, you've had your day."
> 
> ===================================================

Neither have I said that, even if I have said, and will say it again,
that ordinary white males with no special qualifications should not
have any special privileges in American society when it comes to hiring
and firing. White males (not the same as "Whitey", by the way), are one
of the many minorities making up American society. I am always pleased
to note that the greatest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action (which I
capitalized just to be ornery), have been _white women_, so I am
obviously not anti-"Whitey". I'm pleased to see white men with no
qualifications other than their Anglo-Saxon surname and WASPy demeanor,
brought down a peg or two if this benefits white women and other
groups, including white men with surnames like Bdzgoszczicz, Paradescu,
Papadantonakis, Srskic, Avromowitz, yes, and even Fillipenko, PLUS
qualifications, in their search for jobs.

You are the grandson of four Ukrainian Jews and thus a person with no
blood ties to the core population of America (although you like to
feign them). I am the descendant of British and Dutch slaveowners, a
Sephardic Jewish prisonmaster, American Indians, and African slaves; I
have Whitey ancesters and Whitey heritage, which you lack, so there is
no rational reason for me to be anti-Whitey, although you sometimes
like to make a case that I should be. Unlike certain people in this
group, both hemispheres of my brain are still interactively functional,
and I try not to be influence by the occasional testicular tickle or
exuberant demonstration of spontaneous erectile functionality [this was
an in-joke for those who may be puzzled or offended].

You and I both share the good fortune that the mayhem, genocide,
usurpation of usufructs, wholesale extermination of peoples, and the
destruction of entire cultures which the colonial system has wrought
upon this planet for the past 500-odd years has allowed us to benefit
>from some of the good things this intrinsically evil and misanthropic
system has produced. If you think of things in terms of statistics, you
should be rotting in an unmarked grave in a forest outside of Odessa; I
should be rotting in a penitentiary because a piece of lint from a
jacket similar to the one I was wearing when the police stopped me on
the street to do a racial profile check was found at the scene of some
place three states away where crack-cocaine is alleged to have changed
owners. In both theory and practice I am more a poduct of American
culture and certainly have stronger genealogical and cultural
links to "Whiteydom" than you do, Richard. Please remember that the
next time you accuse me of having a racial chip on my shoulder.

Thus, my message is not anti-Whitey, since I will not and do not deny
or denounce  my heritage (despite the fact that many would like me to)
or the fact that I feel somewhat uncomfortable - guilty - with some of
the benefits it has given to me. I do not lose any opportunity, though,
to call attention to the fact that the world is changing rapidly, and
that peoples once thought by certain groups within "Whiteydom" to be
intrinsically inferior are not. Dealing with this reality - that
Mexican workers can presently manufacture television sets more
efficiently than American workers can, and that the Chinese can launch
earth satellites, and that the Gabonese can maintain a European-level
standard of living, while the Russians and Ukrainians can't,  - is
going to be one of the challenges of the recently begun century,
although, barring some humdinger breakthroughs in the medicine you so
despise, neither you nor I will live to see how things work out.
Actually, judging from your views on economics, rather than be curious
to see what happens, you would, I am sure, prefer to dig a hole in the
ground and bury your head in it, ostrich-like.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:11 EDT 2001
Article: 917965 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Submarine engine for fools to believe in
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:29:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <260620010829317345%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b521237.133966113@news.pacificnet.net> <20010626004642.29972.00001008@ng-fx1.aol.com>
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In article <20010626004642.29972.00001008@ng-fx1.aol.com>, Debunks2000
 wrote:

> How about the one I posted the other day where it was claimed that railroad
> boxcars were transformed into lethal homicidal gas chambers?

Are you insinuating that if people were locked into a railroad boxcar
and a lethal agent such as Zyklon B were introduced to it that they
wouldn't die?

The freightcars that were used to transport Jews and others to
deathcamps were periodically disinfected with Zyklon B. Mastery of the
technique of producing and maintaining the concentration of Zyklon B in
a freight car necessary to kill lice (15,000 ppm/20 hours), properly
includes mastery of the technique of prducing and maintaining the much
lower concentrations of Zyklon B in a freight car necessary to kill
people (300 ppm/15 minutes).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:11 EDT 2001
Article: 917996 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joe Bruno...
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:23:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <260620010923523441%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <1be524ace68e8b8f1ce5d94e92fa0301@public.webmail.cotse.com> <6137-3B354670-59@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <3B3553C7.4E9123C9@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0106250759.10a07bdf@posting.google.com> <3B3756E5.2EBAEE44@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0106251329.315de750@posting.google.com> <3B37A96E.4CE649F2@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B37A96E.4CE649F2@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> So you "like" GW Bush - right?
> 
> Joe: be a Republican or be a Democrat; be a liberal or a conservative or a
> national socailist, be anything you
> like, politically. But I hope that, as an American, you join me in disliking
> the fact that we are represented
> before the world as having elected a nincompoop as our First Magitrate.
> 
> =======================================

For which do you have more contempt: a nincompoop or a perjuring
misuser of cigars? Will three and a half more years of continued
nincompoopery spiced with malapropisms all and sundry make you judge GW
to be a better or a worse First Magistrate than the previous one.

Curiously,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:11 EDT 2001
Article: 918119 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Submarine engine for fools to believe in
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:56:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 212
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In article <3b598d99.165556508@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Really, "clearly state" you say?  The fact is Gauss, it's said in
> Holocaust narration that the reason the Germans got into gassing was
> as give the victims a quick and merciful death because the German
> personnel were suffering from having to shoot the victims and having
> it so they would suffocate ain't merciful.

You greatly simplify something about which a lot is known. Let's walk
through the reasons that justified replacing mass shootings with mass
gassings.


1. Mass shootings, such as the ones at Riga, Minsk, Odessa, Khakov,
S^iauliai, and Babi Yar, were logistically complex to arrange and
monpower-intensive to implement. For example, shooting 25,000 Jews at
Riga required more than two weeks of preliminary work on the part of
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln and his staff, involved so many
people that it had to be broken down into two sub-shootings which took
place on two different days (Nov. 30 and Dec 8, 1941), and required
more than 6,000 people to keep order and clean up afterwards. Finding
and preparing a suitable killing site involves numerous variables, many
of them unpredictable. Try to march into a country where you don't
speak the language, the population is hostile, and the forest is full
of partisans, and then find and prepare a suitable place within
reasonaable marching distance from the town center for a mass grave
which will hold 25,000 people.

2. Mass shootings were necessarily public. They generated bad vibes
among the population in the occupied countries where the Nazis were
killing the elements that they, the Nazis, didn't like. "When will it
be our turn?," many people thought as they watched what was going on in
marketplaces, squares, and as Jews, Gypsies, and communist officials
were being marched to killing sites in forests just outside the city.

3. Mass shootings were not fool proof. An unknown but small number of
people did manage to escape from the line of Jews being marched to the
killing site outside Riga, others were able to use deception and avoid
being shot, while still others were shot, but not killed, and
eventually were able to crawl out of the pits, evade the guards, and
escape.

4. Mass shootings took a heavy psychological tool on the shooters. Few
people with a Western ethical background, no matter how much they have
been taught to hate Jews, are going to stand a daily diet of shooting
defenseless men, women, children, and babies in the head. Even Nazi
officials as cold-blooded as Adolf Eichmann and Heinrich Himmler, who
vomited in disgust after witnessing a mass shooting, understood that
mass shooting was an psychologically unacceptable method of achieving
their ends.

5. When it became clear in late 1941 that the war against the USSR
would not be over in four months as had originally been planned, the
Nazis, reassessing optimal use of their resources, realized that mass
shootings as specific operations that had to be planned and budgeted,
became militarily more expensive in terms of time, ammunition, and
efficient use of manpower.

6. An alternative plan that would resolve these problems began to
evolve: replace mass shootings implemented in public with mass gassings
implemented behind closed doors in special facilities designed
specifically for the purpose.

7. The methodology, trained personnel, and necessary administrative
structures to use mass gassing already existed, because the Germans had
been using this techniques to kill their own unwanted citizens within
the framework of the Tiergarten-4 Euthanasia program since late 1940.

8. A preliminary camp for conducting mass gassings using the CO
generated by exhaust fumes in mobile gas chambers, Chelmo, was
commissioned in the early autumn of 1941, and it opened for business on
December 8, 1941. Its chief technical executive was Cristian Wirth, the
man who had designed the gas chamber 'shower room' type gas camber used
in the T4 program, and had subsequently worked as the Kommandant of the
Hartheim Castle euthanasia center and as Inspector of Euthanasia
Killing Centers (cf. P. Padfield, _Himmler. Reichsführer-SS_, London:
Cassell & Co. 2000 [1990], pg. 371 ff. and the primary sources cited
there).

9. An experimental gassing of Soviet POWs using Zyklon B had been
conducted on September 3, 1941 at block 13 at Auschwitz-Stammlager by
Hauptstormführer Fritsch. Kommandant R. Hoess informed Adolf Eichmann
of the successful experiment, and they decided to use Zyklon B,
abundantly available and cheaper than ammunition, as the lethal agent
for extermination operations [R. Hoess, _Commandant of Auschwitz_,
London: Phoenix 2000 [1959], pg. 185.]. Forensic examinations conducted
by the Cracow Institute for Forensic Research as well as by Fred
Leuchter of the  sites of these first gassings still show dectable
traces of cyanide compounds generated by the interactiion of the
cyanide gas released by Zyklon B pellets and the structures in which it
was used [See http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/ for
details and references].

10. At the same time extermination centers using permanent gas chambers
and the exhaust from various kinds of internal combustion engines as
the lethal agent were being designed and built within the framework of
the Aktion Reinhard program. The first of these, Belzec, opened for
business in March, 1941, Sobibor followed in May, and, on July 22,
1942, Treblinka opened. All three of these camps were equipped with
stationary gas chambers which were originally planned to use exhaust
gasses, but were subsequently converted to enable the killing to be
done by Zyklon B. 

11. As these extermination camps become operational, there is a sharp
drop in public mass shootings. When mass shootings were used, the Jews
and, when relevant, Gypsies were systematically arrested, dispossessed,
ghettoized, and then, under the pretext that they were to be resettled
in the East, marched to killing sites and shot. After the introduction
of gassing, they were systematically arrested, dispossessed,
ghettoized, and then, under the pretext that they were to be resettled
in the East, transported either to dedicated extermination centers
where they were killed shortly after arrival, or to dual-function camps
such as Auschwitz and Majdanek, where those capable of work were
admitted to the camps as slave labor, while those incapable of work
were killed shortly after arrival.

11. In the meantime, during the period between September 1941 and April
1942 Zyklon B was used for the mass gassings of Soviet POWs in a
converted morgue at Auschwitz-Stammlager (Krema-I), as well as for the
mass gassings of Jews at the two gas chambers constructed at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, Bunker I and Bunker II, and at the dual-modality
(compressed CO or Zyklon B) gas chamber at Majdanek. All Auschwitz
gassing operations are moved to Auschwitz-Burkenau. During this period
Heydrich, Eichmann, and other top Nazi officials meet at Wannsee
outside of Berlin on January 20, 1942. Despite the fact that seven
months of warfare against the USSR has provided them with the
opportunity to kill several hundred thousand Jews, the dimensions of
the Final Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe are still seen to
involve more than 11,000,000 potential victims [see the Wannsee
Conference Protocol:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-wannsee.htm].

12. Between March 22 and June 25, 1943, the state-of-the-art 
crematoria/Zyklon B gas chambers Kremas II, III, IV, and V, open for
business at Auschwitz-Birkenau.


***************************************************

Let's try to extract the essentials by comparing the main attributes of
shooting vs. gassing as a modality of extermination:


                        mass-shooting                 mass-gassing
                        =============                 ============

Psychological effects  
on perpetrators:        sickening and brutalizing     minimal

Degree of concealment:  done publicly                 done privately

Degree of deception:    victims know early            victims can be 
                        on what will happen to them   kept in the dark
                        and will try to escape        as to what will
                                                      happen to them
                                                      until there is no
                                                      chance of escape  

Crowd control:          difficult, people know what   easy, people are
                        is going to happen, panic,    tired and hungry,
                        and try to escape             and have been 
                                                      promised a warm
                                                      meal after their
                                                      "shower"
                
PR value:               bad, brutality evident to     good, done behind
                        the public, messy             closed doors in
                                                      institutions,
                                                      sanitized

Logistics:              complex                       simple

Manpower-needs:         high, requires soldiers       can be done mostly
                        and policemen                 by Jewish inmates

Investment:             ammunition, location and      uses gas, which is
                        preparation of killing        cheaper than
                        sites, ties up large          ammunition and
                        amounts of manpower           readily available
                                                      because it has 
                                                      uses, requires
                                                      large initial 
                                                      investment

Economic cost/benefit:  cost, everyone is killed      benefit, those who
                        indiscriminately              can be exploited
                                                      economically are 
                                                      worked to death;
                                                      those who are of 
                                                      no economic value
                                                      are killed on 
                                                      arrival         
                                                      

Deniability:            no, because done so           yes, because done
                        publicly                      privately, with
                                                      evidence destroyed
                                                      cyanide traces can
                                                      be claimed to be
                                                      the result of
                                                      innocent delousing

Main long-term
strategic disadvantage: ties up manpower              ties up railways



****************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:12 EDT 2001
Article: 918123 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joe Bruno...
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:15:22 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <260620011915228321%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <1be524ace68e8b8f1ce5d94e92fa0301@public.webmail.cotse.com> <6137-3B354670-59@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <3B3553C7.4E9123C9@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0106250759.10a07bdf@posting.google.com> <3B3756E5.2EBAEE44@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0106251329.315de750@posting.google.com> <3B37A96E.4CE649F2@earthlink.net> <260620010923523441%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B38867D.79BE8B2C@earthlink.net> <3b389e3b$1@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>
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In article <3b389e3b$1@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>, KCOM
<1KCOM@MailandNews.com> wrote:

> As if National Socialism is a valid replacement.  No thank you.

Indeed, Hitler, the only other real National Socialist ever to have
been in power long enough to implement his program, leaves no
historical record of having been "cunt-happy", even if the OSS
psychological profile of him drawn up on the basis of evidence obtained
>from his close associates called attention to his fascination with
another nether orifice. As to nincompoopery, I've always said that a
national leader who takes on the British and French Empires, as well as
the USSR and the USA simultaneously, with allies no more substantial
than Italy, Romania, or distant Japan, insisting on microdirecting the
most crucial battlefield himself even though he has no serious military
training, and then fritters away valuable time and energy killing off
or imprisoning a substantial part of his scientific and professionally
trained communities, jamming his railway system with millions of Jew
transports, and throwing a good part of his budget into running the
most extensive network of "hotels" and "restaurants" Europe has ever
seen, wins every nincompoopery prize there is.

Hitler was such a nincompoop that members of his own inner circle tried
to kill him. GWB, despite his shortcomings, appears to be a person with
his feet on the ground, fully aware of his limitations, and not afraid
to admit it. I couldn't amigine a member of his staff placing a bomb
under his table or arsenic in his coffee. At least not yet.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:12 EDT 2001
Article: 918138 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Supersedes: <260620011924411941%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:10:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <260620012010387762%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B389D12.FC24831E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ======================================================
> Phillips
> Things are imported when and only when it is to the country's best advantage
> to
> do so. If it acts to destroy American jobs, then it is not even to be
> considered.

You forget that in practical terms importing only what it is in a
country's "best advantage to do so" often means that the country _has_
to import. No country, not even raw-materials-rich Russia, is self
sufficient. Industry and society do not produce everything they need in
order to function. Raw materials and industrial products totally
unavailable or available locally only at a prohibitive high price are
imported, and the money needed to pay for these imports comes from
exporting. The more added value an economy can add to its exports, the
higher their international market value. That's why countries that can
export nothing more sophisticated than lumber or, nowadays,
televisions, are relatively poor, while those countries that can export
hi-tech products such as jet fighters and mobile telephones are
markedly richer.

> ======================================================
> Phillips
>
> If it acts to destroy American jobs, then it is not even to be
> considered.

You are taking too short-range a view of things. If a Mexican and an
American worker start with the same pile of raw materials, which tend
to have a world market price, and they both produce television sets
comparable in every way with respect to quality and design, but the
wholesale price of the American television set is five times more
because the Americans who made it are paid wages ten times higher than
the Mexicans get, you are not "protecting" American jobs by favoring
the American product. The American product should either be upgraded in
a way the Mexicans are unable to replicate, the American factory should
rationalize the production process, or it should get out of television
making altogether, as usually happens, and go on to bigger and better
things. There is no economic sense in paying Americans ten times more
than Mexicans to add precisely the same amount of value to raw
materials and, in the longer term, doing so does not protect American
jobs.

Regards,
Eugene Holman





Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:13 EDT 2001
Article: 918145 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Submarine engine for fools to believe in
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:24:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <260620012024378208%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b4bbcaf.112066713@news.pacificnet.net> <4d338ce1.0106260510.11f1cdf9@posting.google.com> <3b598d99.165556508@news.pacificnet.net> <260620011856209640%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b5fb915.176689718@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3b5fb915.176689718@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Holman selected that little aside to reply with 200 lines of cut and
> paste and circumventing the real gist of the topic:
> >You greatly simplify something about which a lot is known. Let's walk
> >through the reasons that justified replacing mass shootings with mass
> >gassings.
> 
> Holamn thinks that the more he cuts and pastes the more convincing it
> will look. Holman thinks by cutting and pasting 200 lines of Holocaust
> narration is proof when in fact the narration is what revisionist find
> to be total trash. 

Gee, umh, that most famous of all revisionists, David Irving, was
forced to come to essentially the same conclusions at his famous trial
last year. He admits that the mass killings were brutal and
impractical, that Nazi officials such as Eichmann and Himmler were
revolted by them, that mobile gas vans, also impractical were used at
Chelmno, that Soviet POWs were gassed at Auschwitz-Stammlager, and that
there is overwhelming evidence that various lethal gases were used by
the Nazis to kill their victims within the euthanasia and extermination
programs on more than an "experimental basis". Or haven't you read the
transcript?

> Thus Holmans cut and paste is nothing. In fact it
> doesn't do anything to discredit Moran's commentary on the exact
> topic. 

I did not cut and paste, but rather wrote it spontaneously. You had, as
you so often do, made a patently erroneous and superficial claim, one
lacking a factual basis, and I countered it by calling attention to the
factors, dates, and considerations, supporting my statements with
copious references to people, events, scientific facts, and dates,
which the historical record tells us resulted in the Nazis going over
>from mass shootings to mass gassings as their preferred methodology for
exterminationist mass murder.

You are too dense to grasp that you were demolished.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:13 EDT 2001
Article: 918146 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Submarine engine for fools to believe in
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:33:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <260620012033058774%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3b4bbcaf.112066713@news.pacificnet.net> <3b5ab487.175523438@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3b5ab487.175523438@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Thus real facts tell us one person in a 3420 cubic foot enclosure
> killed in 30 minutes by the exhaust from a 11 horsepower engine and
> yet Holocaust 'facts' tell us the Germans used monster engines to
> deliver exhaust to a chamber of 864 cubic feet. 

Are you implying that such a setup would not kill the people forced to
inhale the exhaust fumes?

You are trying to claim that the Nazis would have been silly to use a
large engine to kill a lot of people in a space with a small volume,
but admit that a tiny engine can emit fumes sufficient to kill one
person in a space with a humongous volume.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:14 EDT 2001
Article: 918184 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:26:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <260620012126241189%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B39D9AC@MailAndNews.com> <4bc3e2e1.0106221139.4ee2fa4b@posting.google.com>  <3B34343F.A8AEF1D2@earthlink.net>  <3B34A318.195D4530@earthlink.net>  <3B34C267.C6AC85CE@earthlink.net>  <3B34E914.19A14B02@earthlink.net>  <3B35B6B1.93F79285@earthlink.net>  <3B362BEA.3234BAED@earthlink.net> <250620010027425195%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B365E5C.DE01B398@earthlink.net> <250620010958516256%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B37286B.85B75649@earthlink.net> <250620011815172861%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B375B29.EE0363D8@earthlink.net> <250620012136057493%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B389D12.FC24831E@earthlink.net> <260620012010387762%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B38BDA2.1CB08C88@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B38BDA2.1CB08C88@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> We've been all over exactly these same points, I feel I have disposed of them
> conclusively.
> Your bringing them up again leads me to believe that you hope to prevail by
> virtue
> of superior endurance.
> 
> I am NOT -repeat NOT- willing to see American work people exposed to an
> imposible
> competition with the third world peon labour of Mexico. You don't mind a bit
> seeing Whitey dragged down; I mind very much.
> 
> =================================

We see this entire thing from a totally different perspective. You see
it as "whitey" deserving by birthright to receive more than a Mexican
"peon". I see it as American workers, no matter what their race,
ethnicity, gender, creed, or sexual preference maintaining their
competitive advantages with respecty to emerging economies such as
Mexico by concentrating on producing what no one alse can, rather than
receiving higher wages for doing nothing more extraordinary than anyone
with an eighth-grade education can do in any second-world country. Now,
which of us is talking about dragging people down? It seems to me that
I'm saying "noblesse oblige", a gentille way of saying "Take the money
and run", while you're saying that certain people have the intrinsic
right to special privileges by virtue of birthright, no matter how
mediocre their performance measured in absolute terms, a gentille way
of saying "You'll get by, with a twinkle in your eye". Your economic
ideas are similar to those of the "Great and Beloved leader", Kim Il
Sung as implementedin the Juché ideology. if implemented, they would
produce a large North Korea, another country that tries to do eveything
itself.

The past half century shows us that in a world of instant
communications and rapid, trans-global transportation, the countries
best integrated into the international marketplace and consistently on
the vanguard with respect to increasing the value they are able to add
to raw materials have consistently been the most prosperous ones. Those
that have sheltered their economies with funny money, make-work
schemes, monopolies, and high tariff walls, in turn, have been flops.
Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine, still with relatively protected
state-interventionist economies, remain mired in third world-level
poverty, while Estonia, the Czech Republic, former East Germany, and
Slovenia, which have opened their economies and shaken out most of the
dead-wood, have, relatively speaking, prospered.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:14 EDT 2001
Article: 918503 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian (Was: Are monarchies - thrash?)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:21:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <270620010921515651%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <1evgxyi.15gc9poxv57q8N%serse@diku.dk>  <1evhq6j.op0d8xgatn6N%serse@diku.dk> <9h3u4g$c0bq8$1@ID-2529.news.dfncis.de> <1evi4h6.14z9n6629ukx8N%serse@diku.dk> <9h49qm$blnes$1@ID-2529.news.dfncis.de> <1evif1s.171nmmc2v649lN%serse@diku.dk>  <1evix79.1cmqrdy1u0isifN%serse@diku.dk> <9h5jf3$c6m5d$1@ID-2529.news.dfncis.de> <1evjtsk.1poaywm1hoh7scN%serse@diku.dk> <9h6rcb$cbfnb$1@ID-2529.news.dfncis.de> <250620011517442160%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> 
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In article , Usurpator
 wrote:

> Op Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:17:44 +0300 slaagde Eugene Holman erin 
> om dit te potsen:
> >Additionally, it has served as the bridge through Finnish has borrwed
> >words from other languages:
> >Finnish         Swedish
> >kirahvi         giraff      'giraffe'
> >tiikeri         tiger       'tiger'
> >appelsiini      appelsin    'orange'
> >suklaa          chokolad    'choclate'
> >sokeri          socker      'sugar'
> 
> The Japanese word for beer is "biiru", but you don't say Japanese is
> became a Germanic language.

I didn't claim that Finnish has become a Germanic language, I said that
due to more than 3,000 years of an uninterrupted symbiosis with
Germanic languages, its sound system, sentence structure, vocabulary,
and phraseology have become strongly Germanicized or, more precisely,
Suedicized. Japanese, in turn, has borrowed thousands of words from
English, but has been little influenced in pronunciation or grammar by
English: airabayuu 'Valentine card' (< 'I love you').

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:15 EDT 2001
Article: 918512 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joe Bruno...
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:50:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 220
Message-ID: <270620010950520415%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <260620011915228321%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <20010626194513.19510.00001233@ng-ff1.aol.com>
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In article <20010626194513.19510.00001233@ng-ff1.aol.com>, Philip
Mathews  wrote:

> I agree with this statement, and it is not diminished in the least by my
> pointing out that the German railways were not jammed with Jews. 

I beg to differ. I wrote:

> jamming his railway system with millions of Jew
> transports,

By "his [= Hitler's, EH] railway system" I mean all of the railways
under the control of the Third Reich at any given time. As territory in
the east was conquered, administration of their railways became the
responsibility of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. Trainloads of Jews were
being deported from Germany and the areas Germany occupied for"
resettlement in the East", actually to be killed in mass shootings,
starting from as early as July, 1941. Systematic, regular transports
began in December, 1941, with the opening of the first extermination
camp, Chelmno, and the stream became a torrent with the beginning of
extermination activities at Auschwitz, Majdanek, Belzec, and Sobibor
during the first half of 1942. As Germany gained access to more and
more territory Jews were being transported to the extermination camps
>from as far away as France, Norway, and Greece. When the war started to
go in the other direction, Germany devoted considerable resources to
evacuating camps in areas that were being overrun by the Soviets. Once
again, vast resources were used to evacuate Jewish slave laborers from
camps as distant as Salaspils in Latvia and, eventually, from Auschwitz
itself, from which Anne Frank and her sister Margot were evacuate to
Bergen Belsen, where they died.

Deutsche Reichsbahn records indicate that the Germans transported more
than 10,000,000 Jews in one direction or another between 1941 and 1945.
They didn't do it for free: the SS paid for the transportation and, in
many cases, they charged the deportees or confiscated their valuables
to cover the price of deportation.

As to the wisdom of using scarce rolling stock for this purpose when
you are fighting an all-fronts war, the testimony given by
Obergruppenführer-SS Friedrich Jeckeln at his interrogation in Riga in
December, 1945, makes the point more pertinently than I ever could:

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm
(The website of the former Salaspils Concentration Camp in Latvia)


The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln[1]
  
  
The  shootings  were  carried out  under  the  direction  of Colonel 
Dr.  Lange,  Commander of the  SD  and  Gestapo  in Latvia.  Knecht was
in charge of security at the liquidation sites.[2]  I, Jeckeln, took
part in the shootings  on  three occasions;  the  same holds for
Lange,  Knecht,  Lohse,  and Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the
traffic police  in Riga. 

  
Q: Who did the shooting? 

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers. 

Q: What was the procedure? 

A:  All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga  to the 
liquidation site. Near the pits, they  had  to  deposit  their 
overclothes, which were washed, sorted,  and  shipped back  to 
Germany.  Jews-men, women,  and  children-  passed  through police
cordons on their way to the pits, where  they were shot by German
soldiers. 

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in  Riga 
had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,  East  Prussia,  in 
December 1941,  I  reported  in  person, too.[3] Himmler was satisfied
with the results. He said that  more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive
in Latvia, and these were to be liquidated by me also. 

Q: Go into more detail. 

A:  At  the  end  of  January  1942,[4]  I  was  at  Himmler's
headquarters   in   Loetzen,  East   Prussia,   to   discuss 
organizational  matters regarding the  Latvian  SS  legions. There 
Himmler  informed me that additional  Jewish  convoys  were  due to
arrive from the Reich and from other countries. The  destination point
would be the Salaspils  concentration  camp,  which  lay one and a
quarter miles from Riga  in  the direction  of Duenaburg. Himmler said
that he  had  not  yet  determined  how he would have them
exterminated: whether  to have  them  shot on board their convoys or in
Salaspils,  or whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere. 

Q: How was the matter resolved? 

A:  It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker
death. Himmler said he would think it over and  then  give orders later
through Heydrich. 

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the 
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the Salaspils
camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews  from  this camp
were exterminated. But I would like to  make an additional statement
while we are on this topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in  the 
guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that  arrived  from
other countries. In the first half of February 1942  I  received a
letter from Heydrich. In this letter  he  wrote that Reich Marshal
Goering had gotten himself involved in the Jewish question, and that
Jews were now being shipped to the East for annihilation only with
Goering's approval. 

Q:  This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils. 

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews  in
Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes  me  an accessory
to this crime. Beyond that, Jews were  shot in  the  Salaspils camp by
forces recruited from my  SD  and  Security  Police units. The
commander of the SD and  Gestapo in  Latvia,  Lieutenant Colonel Dr.
Lange, was  directly  in  charge of the shootings. Other officers who
reported  to  me on  the shootings of Jews in the camp were the
commander  of  the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States, Major General
Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police Fuchs. 

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you? 

A:  They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were  to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation. 

Q:  Then  the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought  to  be known too,
isn't that correct? 

A:  Yes,  of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The 
first  Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in  November 
1941.  Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys  arrived  at regular
intervals. I  believe  that  in November 1941, no more than three 
convoys arrived  in  all,  but during the next  seven  months,  from 
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys  arrived each
month. 
    Overall,  in  eight months, no less than fifty-five  and  no more 
than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the  camp.  Given that each
convoy carried a thousand men, that makes  a total of 55,000 to 87,000
Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp. 

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth? 

A:  I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however,
that before my arrival in  Riga,  a  significant number of Jews in the
Ostland  and  in White  Ruthenia  were exterminated. I was informed 
of  this fact.[5] 

Q: By whom, specifically? 

A:  Stahlecker;  Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General  Schroder, the SS and
Police Leader in Latvia;  Major  General Moeller the SS and Police
Leader in  Estonia; and  Major  General  Wysocki the SS  and  Police 
Leader  in Lithuania. 

Q: Be specific. What did they report? 

A:  Schroeder reported to me that over and above those  Jews who  had 
been  exterminated  in  the  ghetto  in  Riga   an  additional  70,000 
to  100,000 Jews  were  exterminated  in Latvia.  Dr. Lange directly
oversaw these shootings. Moeller reported that in Estonia everything
was in order as  far  as the Jewish question was concerned. 
  
The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all about 
3,000  to  5,000 and this was  reduced  to  nil.  The  greater  part 
were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki  reported that  100,000  to 
200,000  Jews  were  exterminated-shot-in Lithuania, on Stahlecker's
orders. In Lithuania, the  Jewish exterminations were overseen by the
commander of the SD  and Gestapo,  Lieutenant Colonel of Police Jaeger.
Later  Jaeger told  me  that he had become neurotic as a result  of 
these shootings.  Jaeger was pensioned off and left his  post  for
treatment. All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the 
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500
to 253,500.[6] 

Notes: 

1. Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator;  Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8-13,
Historical State Archives, Riga. 

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police inLatvia. 

3. I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Loetzen. 

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

On  the  same  day  Himmler made the  following  handwritten entry, re:
his telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 17  [i.e., 5:00 EM.]
SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the concentration camps" NS 19/neu
1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police
Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln, personnel file, Berlin
Document Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the SS
Upper Section, "Ostland," occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv,
Koblenz [NS 19 neu/2846]). 

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: 

"Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A:
Jews: 136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children:
34,464" (Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]). 
  



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:16 EDT 2001
Article: 918585 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:04:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Paul Hammond"  wrote in message
> news:9hb9ht$vm8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > The fact that you say your belief in this Jewish conspiracy to subvert
> > British justice is unsurmountable suggests that there is no piece of
> > evidence that could convince you that British justice was fair, and
> > there is no Jewish conspiracy.
> >
> > This seems like an irrational belief to me.
> >
>     It is not. What things seem like to you is caused by the fact that the
> Jews control the media.

Even if we were, for the sake of argument, to accept this claim, it
applies to the United States, not to the entire world. The Irving trial
took place in the UK, where the Jews have far less influence than they
do in the USA. The British media is controlled by a veddy, veddy
British group of publishers and news agncies on Fleet Street.

>          There was a book in ordinary bookstores called "An Empire of Their
> Own". It was a pro-Jewish book but it showed that the Jews ran Hollywood.

Hollywwood, Schmollywood! The Irving vs. Lipstadt/Penhuine Books trial
took place at a British court in the United Kingdom. The charges and
place of trial were specifically chosen by David Irving. The fact of
the matter is that David Irving lost his trial because he had a fool
for a lawyer and was outclassed by Lipstadt's team.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jun 27 12:33:16 EDT 2001
Article: 918640 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
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In article <73fedc95.0106261906.1ea2b75c@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

> Hitler did not know about a plan of extermination of the
> Jews because his plan was expulsion, not mass murder. 

Hitler, always a dreamer, didn't have any more specific plans for the
Jews, other than to "get rid" of them. This is a theme that can be seen
consistently in his earliest speeches, and it was an objective that has
party had been publicizing as central to their program ever since the
1920s. As soon as the Nazis came to power they began to implement their
plans to marginalize Jews in German society and force them out of the
country. This eventually ran into practical difficulties: the Nazis
confiscated all of the personal assets of Jews desiring to emigrate,
and very few countries were interested in receiving hundreds of
thousands of penniless immigrants. At the same time the Reich was
acquiring more territory with more Jews, thus increasing rather than
decreasing the scope of the Jewish problem: the Anschluss of Austria
and the incorporation of the Sudetenland increased the Jewish
population of the Reich by some 50,000.

The Nazis' publicly adevrtised plan for dealing with the Jews was, as
late as 1939, expulsion, emigration no longer being an option. At this
time the area from which Jews, German Jews, were to be expelled were
the Old Reich as well as the Western parts of Poland, the Bialystok
District, which the Germans conquered in 1939 and intended to
ethnically cleanse for German colonization. Jewish resettlement between
late 1939 and June 1941 means expulsion from homes and ghettoization or
internment in concentration camps in awaitance of a suitable
destination in the East for final resettlement.

Historical records indicate that some time during the summer of 1941
Hitler issued vague orders to his underlings, Heydrich and Himmler, to
solve the Jewish Problem 'once and for all', by effecting the 'physical
destruction of Jewry'. Nevertheless, as was so typical of Hitler's
style of government, he left the responsibility for coming up with an
interpretation of his words and a practical solution to them.

June 22 1941 meant a total redefinition of both the "Jewish problem"
and of "Resettlement in the East". The number of Jews that the Nazis
had access to more than doubled, and their possibility to dominate the
entire continent meant yet another potential doubling of the figure. In
early 1939 the number of Jews under Nazi control was on the order of
200,000. After the incorporation of Western Poland and the occupation
of the Low Countries, Norway, and Denmark and the capitulation of
France, the number increased by more than 1,000,000, a factor of 5. The
attack on the USSR created a situation in which another 8,000,000 Jews
>from Finland all the way to Bulgaria and Greece were potential victims
of the Final Solution, while the prospect of Germany dominating all of
Europe mean yet another 4,000,000.

It should be obvious that Germany was not going to resettle 12,000,000,
8,000,000 or even 1,000,000 Jews in territory which it had conquered at
great risk and expense with blood and iron.

Hitler was not particularly interested in the practical day-to-day
responsibilities of leadership. He was more fascinated by the symbolism
and power aspects: making speeches, being the center of attention at
ceremonies, and micromanaging battlefield strategy. Once he had
delegated the job of finding a Solution to the Jewish Problem to his
underlings, he was no longer particularly concerned about it. The fact
that he was briefed about what was going on is evident in his
occasional references in speeches to the uprooting, annihilation, and
destruction of the Jews in Europe. 

In assessing changes in Nazi policy towards Jews it is important to
remember that the scope of the problem expanded rapidly during the
short interval between early 1939, when the object of policy was to be
the 200,000 Jews living in the Reich, and January 1942, when the Nazis
understood that they might have to potential to have access to all of
the 12,000,000 Jews living in Europe.

Heydrich and his crew had originally made plans to concentrate Jews and
prepare them for evacuation to the East. However, the unexpected
expansion in the number of Jews to be dealt with generated practical
problems: 

a. The East, as defined after June 22, 1941, was already full of Jews
b. The Germans wanted the East for their own colonists

The only solution was to divide the notion of evacuation to the East
into two subcomponents:

a. Evacuate Jews to points in the East
b. Kill them when they arrive, either immediately or through a strict
regime of slave labor

Redefining the Final Solution in these terms was quite clearly the
purpose of the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942. Its protocol
notes that practical experience and a radically changed military
situation had resulted in a situation where, even after half a year of
systematically shooting Jews, more than 11,000,000 Jews were within
potential reach of whatever means the Nazis were to devise to implement
the Final Solution. The document notes ominously that resettlement of
the Jews to the East will be done in such a manner that only the
strongest and most resistant will survive the evacuation, the
resettlement process, and the regime of hard labor under which the Jews
will be forced to live in resettlement. These survivors, it says, will
have to be dealt with "accordingly", following the lessons of history,
lest they form the nucleus for a "Jewish revival"; a new generation of
Jews who will grow up and exact revenge on the Germans for what was
done to their parents and grandparents.

Neither was the issue of state-implemented systematic mass-murder a
problem: by January 1942 the Nazis had already killed more than 100,000
of their own citizens within the framework of the T4 euthansia program.
They had no moral compunctions about systematic mass murder, and they
had developed methodologies and trained the personnel necessary to
commit it. As history shows us, the euthanasia program and the final
solution of the Jewish program eventually merged administratively, with
personal and experience developed within the former being transferred
to the latter.

After Heydrich's assassination in 1942, responsibility for
impelementing the final solution of the Jewish problem shifted to
Himmler, Göring, and Eichmann. As the excerpts from the interrogation of
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln indicate, they, not Hitler, were
micromanaging 'Extermination to the East' and its aftermath. There is
no questioning the fact that the term 'liquidation' is being used by
Jeckeln as a synonym for 'shooting to death':

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm
(The website of the former Salaspils Concentration Camp in Latvia)


The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln[1]
  
The  shootings  were  carried out  under  the  direction  of Colonel 
Dr.  Lange,  Commander of the  SD  and  Gestapo  in Latvia.  Knecht was
in charge of security at the liquidation sites.[2]  I, Jeckeln, took
part in the shootings  on  three occasions;  the  same holds for
Lange,  Knecht,  Lohse,  and Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the
traffic police  in Riga. 

  
Q: Who did the shooting? 

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers. 

Q: What was the procedure? 

A:  All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga  to the 
liquidation site. Near the pits, they  had  to  deposit  their 
overclothes, which were washed, sorted,  and  shipped back  to 
Germany.  Jews - men, women,  and  children -  passed  through police
cordons on their way to the pits, where  they were shot by German
soldiers. 

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in  Riga 
had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,  East  Prussia,  in 
December 1941,  I  reported  in  person, too.[3] Himmler was satisfied
with the results. He said that  more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive
in Latvia, and these were to be liquidated by me also. 

Q: Go into more detail. 

A:  At  the  end  of  January  1942,[4]  I  was  at  Himmler's
headquarters   in   Loetzen,  East   Prussia,   to   discuss 
organizational  matters regarding the  Latvian  SS  legions. There 
Himmler  informed me that additional  Jewish  convoys  were  due to
arrive from the Reich and from other countries. The  destination point
would be the Salaspils  concentration  camp,  which  lay one and a
quarter miles from Riga  in  the direction  of Duenaburg. Himmler said
that he  had  not  yet  determined  how he would have them
exterminated: whether  to have  them  shot on board their convoys or in
Salaspils,  or whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere. 

Q: How was the matter resolved? 

A:  It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker
death. Himmler said he would think it over and  then  give orders later
through Heydrich. 

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the 
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the Salaspils
camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews  from  this camp
were exterminated. But I would like to  make an additional statement
while we are on this topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in  the 
guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that  arrived  from
other countries. In the first half of February 1942  I  received a
letter from Heydrich. In this letter  he  wrote that Reich Marshal
Goering had gotten himself involved in the Jewish question, and that
Jews were now being shipped to the East for annihilation only with
Goering's approval. 

Q:  This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils. 

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews  in
Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes  me  an accessory
to this crime. Beyond that, Jews were  shot in  the  Salaspils camp by
forces recruited from my  SD  and  Security  Police units. The
commander of the SD and  Gestapo in  Latvia,  Lieutenant Colonel Dr.
Lange, was  directly  in  charge of the shootings. Other officers who
reported  to  me on  the shootings of Jews in the camp were the
commander  of  the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States, Major General
Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police Fuchs. 

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you? 

A:  They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were  to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation. 

Q:  Then  the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought  to  be known too,
isn't that correct? 

A:  Yes,  of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The 
first  Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in  November 
1941.  Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys  arrived  at regular
intervals. I  believe  that  in November 1941, no more than three 
convoys arrived  in  all,  but during the next  seven  months,  from 
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys  arrived each
month. 
    Overall,  in  eight months, no less than fifty-five  and  no more 
than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the  camp.  Given that each
convoy carried a thousand men, that makes  a total of 55,000 to 87,000
Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp. 

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth? 

A:  I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however,
that before my arrival in  Riga,  a  significant number of Jews in the
Ostland  and  in White  Ruthenia  were exterminated. I was informed 
of  this fact.[5] 

Q: By whom, specifically? 

A:  Stahlecker;  Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General  Schroder, the SS and
Police Leader in Latvia;  Major  General Moeller the SS and Police
Leader in  Estonia; and  Major  General  Wysocki the SS  and  Police 
Leader  in Lithuania. 

Q: Be specific. What did they report? 

A:  Schroeder reported to me that over and above those  Jews who  had 
been  exterminated  in  the  ghetto  in  Riga   an  additional  70,000 
to  100,000 Jews  were  exterminated  in Latvia.  Dr. Lange directly
oversaw these shootings. Moeller reported that in Estonia everything
was in order as  far  as the Jewish question was concerned. 
  
The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all about 
3,000  to  5,000 and this was  reduced  to  nil.  The  greater  part 
were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki  reported that  100,000  to 
200,000  Jews  were  exterminated - shot - in Lithuania, on Stahlecker's
orders. In Lithuania, the  Jewish exterminations were overseen by the
commander of the SD  and Gestapo,  Lieutenant Colonel of Police Jaeger.
Later  Jaeger told  me  that he had become neurotic as a result  of 
these shootings.  Jaeger was pensioned off and left his  post  for
treatment. All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the 
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500
to 253,500.[6] 

Notes: 

1. Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator;  Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8-13,
Historical State Archives, Riga. 

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police inLatvia. 

3. I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Loetzen. 

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

On  the  same  day  Himmler made the  following  handwritten entry, re:
his telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 17  [i.e., 5:00 EM.]
SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the concentration camps" NS 19/neu
1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police
Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln, personnel file, Berlin
Document Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the SS
Upper Section, "Ostland," occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv,
Koblenz [NS 19 neu/2846]). 

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: 

"Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A:
Jews: 136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children:
34,464" (Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]). 
  


Although no serious historian would buy Irving's argument that Hitler
was totally ignorant of the Holocaust, or yours that it never took
place, I do accept that Hitler had delegated it to his underlings and,
having done that, showed little interest in following up its day-to-day
implementation. Nevertheless, rounding up, transporting, accommodating,
and killing millions of people ate up a substantial part of the annual
state budget, for which reason I cannot accept that Hitler was so
irresponsible or incompetent a leader that he would not have at least
insisted that he be regularly briefed on how effectively the billions
of Reichsmarks and other resources, including two government
departments, allocated to implementing the Final Solution were being
used. He referred to the ongoing process of the destruction of European
Jewry frequently enough in his speeches and spent enough time
discussing the conduct of the war with his closest underlings, both
formally and informally, that he had to have a general idea of what was
going on. For reasons of political face-saving Hitler did not want to
be regarded as being too closely associated with the practical
implementation of the Final Solution. He had already suffered a severe
political embarrassment for having been found to be more closely
associated than was politically wise with the euthansia program.

Regards,
Eugene Holman



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