The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/h/holman.eugene/2001/holman.0103


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Mar  9 11:05:08 EST 2001
Article: 872092 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Commandant Hoess on Destroying the Human Remains
Supersedes: <090320011606563403%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:17:27 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <090320011617271375%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AC12E0C@MailAndNews.com> <3AA805F1.D76FDCA4@ihr.org> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984147447 11550 128.214.199.213 (9 Mar 2001 14:17:27 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2001 14:17:27 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872092

In article , William Daffer > 
> 
>   I learned a great word from Eugene Holman today. *Synchronic*.

I'm flattered.

> 
>   It means taking a purposefully limited view of events and
>   purposefully ignoring antecedants.

Close, but not quite. The term originated in structural linguistics,
more precisely in the work of the great Swiss linguist Ferdinand de
Saussure (1857-1913). Specifically:

Source: http://online.anu.edu.au/english/jems/saussure_intro.html

Saussure suggested that language should not only be studied in terms of
its individual parts, and not only diachronically (across time), but
also in terms of the relationship between the parts synchronically (the
way it works now as a snapshot of meaning relations). In this way,
Saussure sought to recognise a language's structural properties as well
as its historic evolution. Thus Saussure showed that language functions
at each moment as a complete system at any given point in time, so he
was able to examine the language system a-historically.


The idea that Saussure developed with respect to the study of language
can be extended to the study of any complex system. It can be isolated
>from its functional and historical context and studied as an autonomous
object existing and fully functional as an entity consisting of
heterogeneous components at a specific point in time (synchronically
and holistically), or it can be studied as a specific state in an
evolutionary process involving heterogeneous elements, each of which
has its own evolutionary history (diachronically and atomistically).
The difference is essentially that of studying the properties of a
complex entity on the basis of its snapshot, as opposed to studying its
properties on the basis of a motion picture documenting how and why the
various components of the entity got together to form something which 
functions as a system at a specific point in time.

> 
>   And while this isn't specifically what you are doing here, since
>   your discussion doesn't have a sense of the flow of time in it, at
>   least not explicitly, nevertheless it captures the flavor of your
>   remarks.
> 
>   You act as if all that would be required is be to trott out 10
>   little duckies and that would be the end of the proof. And the fact
>   that someone hasn't done that to your satisfaction actually *means*
>   something about history, as opposed to interpersonal relationships.
> 
>   But history consists of more than this and I think that you presage
>   what you will no doubt soon demonstrate, that you wish to take a
>   synchronic view of history so as to avoid the contradictions which
>   occur whenever your claims are viewed in the larger context.

Correct.

> 
>   The fact that someone can't, or won't trot out the evidence to your
>   satisfaction really mean just one thing. They don't really like you
>   and don't think they should have to respond to what is, after all, a
>   somewhat adolescent way of viewing history and debate.

Actually, the reason that evidence can't be trotted out to his
satisfaction is that he is making arbitrary and unjustified
preconditions for what constitutes evidence for an historical event.
Doing history requires that we work with the evidence that is
available, interpreting it according to the various ontological,
epistemological, heuristic, and methodological principles the validity
of which has been established by the community of people that are
regarded as legitimate historians. 

You can't say "The only proof that I will accept that structure X was a
gas chamber is a document that can be validly certified to be a copy
its instruction manual". Indeed, once such a document, if it ever
existed, was presented, the sceptic could say "The only proof that I
will acept that document X is a certified copy of the instruction
manual is proof that the certifier was really a legitimate Nazi era
certifier". This type of argumentation can be continued ad infinitum
and it is not aimed at establishing the historicity of an event. It is
a puerile attempt to impose on historical research the standards of
proof that are used within axiomatic systems of argumentation such as
geometry.

A historian works with the evidence at hand to reconstruct contexts and
cuasal chains: the fact that a murder weapon is never found does not
invalidate the historicity of a murder. If it did, every murderer could
escape punishment by destroying his or her murder wepaon. Criminology,
like history, uses methods that enable it to construct hypotheses,
contexts, and causal connections on the basis of the evidence that is
available to determine whether or not a murder has taken place, and if
so, how, why, and by whom it was committed. Just observing a murder -
relating to it from a purely synchronic perspective - can give us
certain forensic details, but without the diachronic investigation
which connects the murdered person to a larger context, hypotheses,
theories, and proofs of the guilt beyond reasonable doubt of one as
opposed to another suspect cannot be constructed.

This is something that many of the revisionists posting to this forum
seem incapable of understanding or appreciating.

Regards,
Eugene Holman






> 
>   If you have some criticisms to make of historical knowledge, please
>   make them. Otherwise, there's little reason to doubt the knowledge
>   that history has developed.


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Mar  9 16:07:45 EST 2001
Article: 872133 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fu-berlin.de!opentransit.net!kinglear.mobilixnet.dk!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Deniers - where is the evidence?
Supersedes: <090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:09:09 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <090320012009090259%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984161349 24954 128.214.199.213 (9 Mar 2001 18:09:09 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:09:09 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872133 soc.culture.usa:606473 soc.culture.canada:259370

In article <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com>, Dakota Boy
 wrote:

> It seems to me that it is you Holocaust believers who had better come
> up with some evidence.  Some real physical evidence would be nice.
> The lack of physical evidence is a sore spot with you believers, and
> when it is pointed out to you guys, you scream like raped apes and
> start the namecalling. 

There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
include:
1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
2. The abundant traces of human remains found during the geological
examination of the Auschwitz camp.
3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventilation
systems of the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek.
4. The still standing and partially functional gas chambers at Majdanek
and Mauthausen, as well as the partial restoration of a premise that
once served as a gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager.
5. The Jeckeln-type graves which have been partially exhumed at Serniki
and Ustanovka in Ukraine.
6. The bone fragments and other human remains found on the site of the 
Jeckeln-type mass grave in Riga, Latvia.
7. The clandestinely taken photographs of people being run into and
dragged out of Auschwitz gas chambers, as well as of dead and healthy
looking bodies being thrown into Auschwitz burning pits.
8. The photographs of people being death-marched through the German
countryside during the winter of 1945.
9. The stacks, traincarsfuls, and warehousefuls of dead bodies found at
so many of the camps when they were liberated.
10. The traces of cyanide found in hair and on bracelets, hair clasps
and other articles removed from gassed bodies that were forensically
examined by Polish forensic scientists in 1945.
11. Nazi photographs and newsreels of Einsatzkommando death squads
shooting women and children taken in several locations in Eastern
Europe, particularly in Leipaja, Latvia, and Ukraine.
12. The thousands of mass graves of people mass-murdered by the Nazis
known to the local authorities responsible for groundwater and
sanitation in Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, western Russia, and
Ukraine.

> Why don't you believers provide some evidence
> to back up your crazy claims.  After all ... it is you guys who are
> writing all the books, making all the docudramas, building all the
> memorials, and running around Europe and the U.S. trying to extort
> Holocaust reparations out of anybody and everybody.  Seems to me
> the burden of proof is on you.

The books and legal claims are not being pulled out of the air. The
facts that the books are carefully researched and often supported by
photographs taken by the Nazis themselves (such as Goldhagen's
_Hitler's willing Executioners_), and that almost all of the legal
claims made have been upheld in American, Argentinian, Australian,
Belgian, Brazilian, Canadian, Czech, Czechoslovak, Dutch, Estonian,
French, German, Hungarian, Israeli, Latvian, Lithuanian, Slovak,
Soviet, Swiss, and Ukrainian courts because the evidence on which they
are based is unambiguous and uncontestable, such as the unclaimed
Holocaust-era bank accounts and insurance policies of Nazi-murdered
Jews found in Switzerland a few years back, demonstrate that there is
abundant physical and documentary evidence to back up the allegations.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Mar  9 16:07:45 EST 2001
Article: 872134 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here's what George Washington REALLY had to say
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:18:26 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <090320012018263716%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3AA83991.EB72F041@nizkor.org> <3AA85092.1ADD24AF@verizon.net>  <3AA8EBE5.3F779DAF@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984161905 24954 128.214.199.213 (9 Mar 2001 18:18:25 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:18:25 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872134

In article <3AA8EBE5.3F779DAF@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>

> > And how exactly do you know that to be true, Dick? Vampires from
> > atlantis tell you?
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> NOt sure but I think it came from one of my anti-Semitic hate sheets.
> 
> ========================================

You collect anti-Semitic hate sheets?

Curiously,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Mar  9 16:07:45 EST 2001
Article: 872144 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Incredible outburst of nonsense
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:51:27 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 272
Message-ID: <090320012151272932%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3ad628e8.583497757@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984167488 1092 128.214.199.213 (9 Mar 2001 19:51:28 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2001 19:51:28 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872144

In article <3ad628e8.583497757@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Mr.Holman responding to:
> >> It seems to me that it is you Holocaust believers who had better come
> >> up with some evidence.  Some real physical evidence would be nice.
> >> The lack of physical evidence is a sore spot with you believers, and
> >> when it is pointed out to you guys, you scream like raped apes and
> >> start the namecalling. 
> 
> Lists this abomination:
> >There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
> >include:
> 
> >1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
> 
> There was no investigation at Belzec. There is nothing on the
> Holocaust circuit to show it ever took place.
> 

Source: http://www.holocaust-info.dk/operation_reinhard/belzec_1998.htm


Polish Prime Minister Jerzy Buzek meets with President Clinton at the
White House Friday. 
(Reuters) 

Buzek Thursday toured the U.S. Holocaust Museum and said a new memorial
would be built on the site of a Nazi extermination camp in Poland which
was crumbling and neglected. 

Buzek handed two silver spoons as a symbolic gift to museum chairman
Miles Lerman. The spoons were found this year at the site of the Belzec
extermination camp during part of an unprecedented archeological
survey. 

Belzec, in eastern Poland near the Ukrainian border, was the first camp
in which the Nazis erected permanent gas chambers. At least 600,000
Jews were murdered there. 

The Polish government and the Holocaust Museum quietly signed an
agreement last year to build a new memorial there to replace a
sculpture that was erected in the 1960s by the former Communist
authorities of Poland. 

Jewish visitors to the site had complained that it was badly neglected,
overgrown with weeds and strewn with garbage. They also said the
existing memorial was inappropriate and was falling apart. 

``Construction will begin in the near future. Archeological work is
going on at that site and new discoveries are being made
systematically,'' Buzek told reporters.

Lerman said Belzec was a place of great personal significance to him. 

``My entire family, my mother, perished in Belzec,'' he said. ``We are
underway ... I am convinced in the near future practical work (on a new
memorial) will begin.'' 

A Polish team recently carried out the most comprehensive archeological
survey ever conducted on a major Holocaust site and located 33
previously unknown mass graves. 

``This was the first archeological survey on this scale done
systematically on a grid system and we have learned many new things,''
said Jacek Nowakowski, associate director of the Holocaust Museum,
coordinating the project from the U.S. side. 

According to a report by Robin O'Neill, a British scholar who took part
in the survey, the team bored holes to a depth of some 18 feet at
15-yard intervals throughout the site. 

``The largest mass graves ... contained unburned human remains (parts
and pieces of skulls with hair and skin attached). The bottom layer of
the graves consisted of several inches thick of black human fat. One
grave contained uncrushed human bones so closely packed that the drill
could not penetrate,'' O'Neill wrote. 

Belzec was one of six extermination camps erected by the Nazis. The
other five were Treblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Auschwitz-Birkenau and
Chelmno. 

The camp began operating in March 1942. Victims were packed tightly
into four gas chambers and killed by carbon monoxide generated from a
huge aircraft engine, with some taking as long as 35 minutes to die.
Their naked bodies were dumped in trenches. There were only five
recorded survivors, none of whom is still alive. 

The Nazis had built Belzec to destroy the centuries-old Jewish
communities of southern and eastern Poland. In 1942, that job done,
they closed the camp. They later tried to hide their crime, burning the
bodies and grinding up the bones. 

Nowakowski said the unburned bodies that had been discovered this year
numbered in the thousands and were probably the remains of Jews brought
to the site to burn the remains of victims of the gas chambers. 

``The fact that there were many more people employed in burning the
bodies than we thought suggests they had many more bodies to burn. We
may have to revise upward the estimate of the number who died at Belzec
and that only increases the huge significance of the site,'' he said. 




See also:
http://www.holocaust-info.dk/today/belzec/image5.htm
http://www.holocaust-info.dk/today/belzec/image0.htm


http://history1900s.about.com/homework/history1900s/gi/dynamic/offsite.h
tm?site



Shofar FTP Archive File:
camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/archaelogical-dig-description


------------------------------------------------------------------------


     I have recently returned from Belzec where I was part of an
archaelogical team led by Professor Mieczslaw Gora of the Torun
University, Warsaw.  We carried out an extensive survey of the camp
area drilling over 1700 bore-holes and examining soil samples to a
depth of 6m. 33 mass graves were found of various dimensions, the
largest measuring 70m x 20m x 6m deep. 
   
In the south east part of the camp five mass graves were found, the
largest measuring 36m x 18m x 6m deep.  Two of the graves contained
unburnt, naked human corpses below a layer of water at 3-4m  below
ground.
     
At varying depths was found burnt human ash, burnt wood, crushed pieces
of bone etc.  At the extrermity of drilling in grave marked No,1, there
were several c.m. of burnt human fat.  Three graves contained a mixture
of ash, carbonised wood and crushed bone.      

Near to the East boundary fence a grave measuring 5m x 5m x 2m deep was
located, spent and live rounds of German and Russian ammunition was
found.  This may have been the site of the `lazerat` (bogus Red Cross
location)  where the old, and sick were taken for execution.     

With metal detectors  and excavations over  600 items of property were
found and logged.

Four building structures were were exposed.    Three of the sites were
excavated to a depth of 3m, and revealed burnt structures, possibly
the location of the death brigade barracks.  These building sites
contained concrete cellars.   A number of human bones, skulls etc were
found in one of these sites and probably the remains of of several
people shot  on site and dumped.   

A fourth building was exposed near the West corner of the camp which
may have been the camp generator building.   We found no traces of the
gassing barracks.

The ramp and stopping place for the transports was located.
(The team: Prof. A. Kola, Prof M. Gora, R.Kazmierczak, W. Azulta, Z.
Wieczorkowski, M. Tregenza and 12 local workers from Belzec village).

I have 9 x 90min. film cassettes of the whole operation over the
period 28.4. - 4.6.98.  (in need of some professional editing?)

We are due to re-commence work at Belzec this October and extend our
investigation outside the present camp wire.

     Robin O`Neil
     Hebrew and Jewish Department,
     University College London (currently engaged PhD research Jews of
     Galicia/Rabka SD School/transports to Belzec).

From: Peter Witte 

I would like to add a tiny detail to Robin O'Neil's exciting report on 
Belzec. I was told that by metal detecting operations a silver 
cigarette case was found in the camp site bearing the engraved name  
of M a x  M u n k from Vienna. Here we have a first piece of evidence 
that people from Vienna have been transported to
Belzec. Has anybody ever heard about Max Munk? I have been doing a lot
of research on deportations into the district of Lublin and would very
much appreciate any further information.
You can privately contact me off the list. Thank you
Peter Witte
p.witte@t-online.de




> >2. The abundant traces of human remains found during the geological
> >examination of the Auschwitz camp.
> 
> There was no geological study done at Auschwitz. Holman will not be
> able to refer the reader to any place they can find the alleged report
> lest they go to Poland.  

Auschwitz happens to be in Poland, so anyone wanting first-hand
information ought to be ready to go there. As for myself, been there,
done that.

See:
http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits.html


 In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow,
 was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry
 out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the
 locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of
 Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes,
 bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the
 holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in
 the Conservation Department of the Museum
    --(Franciszek Piper, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death
         Camp_, p. 179n).




> >3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventilation
> >systems of the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek.
> 
> There was no ventilation systems at Auschwitz or Majdanek. 

Source: http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/plan01.html


The plan of the gas chamber of Krema II in Auschwitz. The air
extraction system (which the Holocaust deniers claim didn't exist) is
clearly shown: Entlüftungskanal means air extraction duct, and
Belüftung means ventilation. Remains of the air-extraction system can
still be seen in the ruins. 

Auschwitz : Technique and operation of the gas chambers, J.C. Pressac,
the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p.322. 


> There was no study to any ventilation systems that proves cyanide was used.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/


>From shortly after the war to the present there have been a number of
forensic analyses conducted on facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau
including legitimate investigations as well as those conducted by
Holocaust deniers. This section will give a brief history of those
reports. Section V. will address in more detail the chemistry involved.
In 1945 the Cracow Forensic Institute did a forensic analysis of the
criminal traces left by the murderers. Pressac summarizes some of their
findings: 


Toxicological analysis were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic
Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2 damaged
ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II. After
scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the
metal, 7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two
qualitative analysis, which established the presence of cyanide
compounds. The report, signed by Dr. Jan Z. Robel, was written on 15th
December, 1945 and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn. 24 

Footnote:
24. Jean-Claude Pressac, Technique, op. cit., p. 233, emphasis
Pressac's.



Are you ready to cry "Uncle!", or do you want me to post the URL's that
debunk the rest of your mendacious claims as well?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Mar  9 16:07:45 EST 2001
Article: 872150 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here's what George Washington REALLY had to say
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 22:34:25 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 67
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <090320012234257934%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3AA83991.EB72F041@nizkor.org> <3AA85092.1ADD24AF@verizon.net>  <3AA8EBE5.3F779DAF@verizon.net> <090320012018263716%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA92B7F.673CFB1B@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984170064 3697 128.214.199.213 (9 Mar 2001 20:34:24 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2001 20:34:24 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872150

In article <3AA92B7F.673CFB1B@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3AA8EBE5.3F779DAF@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > And how exactly do you know that to be true, Dick? Vampires from
> > > > atlantis tell you?
> > >
> > > ===========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > NOt sure but I think it came from one of my anti-Semitic hate sheets.
> > >
> > > ========================================
> >
> > You collect anti-Semitic hate sheets?
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> They seem to find me like
> 
> --Sure-fire investment strategies
> 
> --Ads for on-line porn
> 
> --Pleas for Bangladesh relief
> 
> --Memory enhancement courses
> 
> --Systems for penis enlargement
> 
> --Solicitations to help support the Institute for Destitute Prostitutes.
> 
> --Long-distance telephone carriers. If I sign on with Sprint, then MCI and
> AT&T plead with me to switch. If I sign on with MCI, then Sprint and AT&T
> plead with me to switch. If I sign on with AT&T then Sprint and MCi plead
> with me to switch.
> 
> It is unbelievable, Eugene --unbelievable, I tell you-- the number of
> people who want some money from Dick Phillips. Needless to say, under
> National Socialism they'll be put to work doing something socially useful.
> 
> ======================================

Are you arguing that under National SocialismŠ
- Men would not prefer to get rich by investing rather than working?
- Men would not be willing to pay cold cash to oogle good-looking women?
- People would not feel some sympathy for people in countries much
poorer or more disaster-prone than their own, and that they would not
be willing to part with some cold cash to keep them in their homelands
rather than have them come knocking, hat in hand, on the doors of their
National Socialist paradise?
- People would not like to improve their memory using any method
possible?
- Men, and some of their women, would be willing to pay cold cash for
more "hungness" and less "erectile dysfunction"?
- Has-been professional female sex workers might never be in need of
some support from the people who once enjoyed their services?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri Mar  9 16:10:15 EST 2001
Article: 259370 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fu-berlin.de!opentransit.net!kinglear.mobilixnet.dk!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Deniers - where is the evidence?
Supersedes: <090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:09:09 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <090320012009090259%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984161349 24954 128.214.199.213 (9 Mar 2001 18:09:09 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:09:09 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872133 soc.culture.usa:606473 soc.culture.canada:259370

In article <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com>, Dakota Boy
 wrote:

> It seems to me that it is you Holocaust believers who had better come
> up with some evidence.  Some real physical evidence would be nice.
> The lack of physical evidence is a sore spot with you believers, and
> when it is pointed out to you guys, you scream like raped apes and
> start the namecalling. 

There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
include:
1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
2. The abundant traces of human remains found during the geological
examination of the Auschwitz camp.
3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventilation
systems of the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek.
4. The still standing and partially functional gas chambers at Majdanek
and Mauthausen, as well as the partial restoration of a premise that
once served as a gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager.
5. The Jeckeln-type graves which have been partially exhumed at Serniki
and Ustanovka in Ukraine.
6. The bone fragments and other human remains found on the site of the 
Jeckeln-type mass grave in Riga, Latvia.
7. The clandestinely taken photographs of people being run into and
dragged out of Auschwitz gas chambers, as well as of dead and healthy
looking bodies being thrown into Auschwitz burning pits.
8. The photographs of people being death-marched through the German
countryside during the winter of 1945.
9. The stacks, traincarsfuls, and warehousefuls of dead bodies found at
so many of the camps when they were liberated.
10. The traces of cyanide found in hair and on bracelets, hair clasps
and other articles removed from gassed bodies that were forensically
examined by Polish forensic scientists in 1945.
11. Nazi photographs and newsreels of Einsatzkommando death squads
shooting women and children taken in several locations in Eastern
Europe, particularly in Leipaja, Latvia, and Ukraine.
12. The thousands of mass graves of people mass-murdered by the Nazis
known to the local authorities responsible for groundwater and
sanitation in Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, western Russia, and
Ukraine.

> Why don't you believers provide some evidence
> to back up your crazy claims.  After all ... it is you guys who are
> writing all the books, making all the docudramas, building all the
> memorials, and running around Europe and the U.S. trying to extort
> Holocaust reparations out of anybody and everybody.  Seems to me
> the burden of proof is on you.

The books and legal claims are not being pulled out of the air. The
facts that the books are carefully researched and often supported by
photographs taken by the Nazis themselves (such as Goldhagen's
_Hitler's willing Executioners_), and that almost all of the legal
claims made have been upheld in American, Argentinian, Australian,
Belgian, Brazilian, Canadian, Czech, Czechoslovak, Dutch, Estonian,
French, German, Hungarian, Israeli, Latvian, Lithuanian, Slovak,
Soviet, Swiss, and Ukrainian courts because the evidence on which they
are based is unambiguous and uncontestable, such as the unclaimed
Holocaust-era bank accounts and insurance policies of Nazi-murdered
Jews found in Switzerland a few years back, demonstrate that there is
abundant physical and documentary evidence to back up the allegations.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Mar 10 13:52:23 EST 2001
Article: 872364 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-5.pc.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Repeating request for information about pitburning in Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:43:04 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-5.pc.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984228183 23469 128.214.79.6 (10 Mar 2001 12:43:03 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 12:43:03 GMT
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872364

In article ,
runevi@termvakt.uio.no (Rune Kristian Viken) wrote:

> Hmm, nobody seemed to answer my question, so I'll repost it.
> 
> 
> I'm as previously stated discussing revisionism in the no.* hiarchy, 
> and I just ran across an argument I didn't see immediately answered
> at nizkor.
> 
> There is a claim that the "ground-water" (I don't know if that's the
> correct english term) in Auschwitz area is a few meter below ground,
> and thus that the pit-burnings were impossible because the graves 
> would have been filled with water.

Here is a photograph of pit-burning at Auschwitz during 1944:
http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/summer44.htm


> I see a reference in the qar-complete at nizkor to airial photographs
> of the pits, but no link to it.  Are these available online?  Also,
> could someone please referr me to a place where a more thourough
> explanation is given?  (Or preferrably, just write it as an answer
> to me here. :-)

The water table, which determines the level of the ground water, varies
with the seasons and can be radically altered by human intervention. The
technology, which the Dutch had mastered during the Middle Ages, is not
complex.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Mar 10 13:52:23 EST 2001
Article: 872365 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-5.pc.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:35:35 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 332
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-5.pc.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984227736 23469 128.214.79.6 (10 Mar 2001 12:35:36 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 12:35:36 GMT
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872365

In article <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:
> 
> > In article <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>, "Liar Philllips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> > > [...deletia...]
> >
> > > > You claim to be disgusted and outraged by Bill Clinton. What evidence
> > > > do you have that his alleged peckerdillos with Monica in the
> > > > Oral...excuse me Oval Office actually took place? There is far more
> > > > evidence pf the existence of Auschwitz gas chambers than there is of
> > > > Clinton ever having had his knob polished by Monica Lewinsky.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Eugene Holman
> > >
> > > =========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Regarding the last statement: horseshit.
> >
> > > [...deletia: evasion...]
> >
> > Answer the question, idiot:
> >
> > What evidence do you have that Bill Clinton had sex with Monica
Lewinski in the
> > Oval Office?
> >
> > JGB
> 
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> So far as I am aware, no one ever videotaped the sessions.  However,
there is such
> a thing as inference and there is also such a thing as overwhelming
inference, and
> there is even such a thing as crushing inference.
> ===================================================

There are no known pictures or videos of Clinton getting his knob polished
by Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office.

There are:

1. Pictures and films made by the Germans for research purposes of them
gassing people within the framework of the T-4 euthanasia program.

2. Pictures and films made by the Germans for propaganda and documentary
purposes of them shooting Jewish civilians in Eastern Europe during the
first six months of the war.

3. Reliable and uncontested historical records showing that personnel such
as Christian Wirth and Franz Stangl who had been trained to commit mass
murder within the euthanasia program later wound up directing and
upgrading the extermination facilities at Belzec and Sobibor.

We also know that the Nazis made wide use of Zyklon-B as a disinfectant
for delousing clothing, etc. Mastery of the difficult and dangerous use of
Zyklon-B to disinfect clothing logically includes mastery of the simpler
and less dangerous use of Zyklon-B to kill people. Structures designed for
the disinfectation of clothing can, with minimal and trivial modification,
be used for killing people. 

There is historical evidence from a variety of sources that the Nazis were
killing people at dedicated killing centers in Poland. This includes:

1. Testimony of captured camp directors, such as Rudolf Höss. It has been
pointed out several times here that he was tortured when he was captured.
This is evidently true. Nevertheless, after having been tortured he
appeared as a witness for the defence at Nuremberg, was tried on the basis
of other evidence at Cracow, and wrote his extensive and detailed memoirs
in a jail cell in Poland after having been tried and sentenced to death.
The information included in his memoirs is corroborated by information
>from other sources, nor did Höss have anything to lose or gain any more by
fabricating stories. The obvious errors and inconsistencies in his memoirs
can be attributed to the book's lack of editing and Höss's overall low
level of education.

2. The testimony of escapees such as Rudolf Vrba. Although he never
witnessed an actual gassing - understandable since they took place behind
closed doors in gas chambers - he knew what buildings at
Auschwitz-Birkenau were being used for gassing and had, according to his
testimony, witnessed the human input to the gassing facilities as well as
the medical orderlies responsible for adminstering the gas pouring it into
the chimney-like structures on the roof. Vrba made the world aware of what
was going on at Auschwitz during the war.

3. The testimony of surviving members of the Sonderkommando such as David
Olére (http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/k3_side.htm
http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/k3_olere.htm) which accords with both
surviving architectural documents and the information given independently
by Höss, Vrba, Münch. and others.

4. The testimony of Nazi officials such as Dr. Hans Münch working at the
camps in various functions giving details abaout the exterminaton
procedures whch are consistent with evidence given by Höss, Vrba, Olére,
and others.

5. Photographs of various phases of the extermination process which are
consitent with evidence about the extermination procedure given by others.
These include:
a. photographs of the selection process, e.g.
http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/selection.htm
b. photographs of people selected for gassing unknowingly awaiting their
fate, e.g. http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/waiting.htm
c. at least one clandestinely taken photograph of people being run into a
gas chamber, http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/aktion.htm
d. at least one picture of freshly gassed bodies being pit-burned,
http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/summer44.htm

6. Worksheets and inventory lists giving detailed information about the
people responsible for burning the bodies, oven run times, and the objects
such as false shower heads that were supposed to be in the gas chambers.

7. Construction plans such as the one at 
http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/plan01.html  showing the high
capacity air-input and air-expulsion systems in gas chambers.

8. The fact that by the summer of 1944 when the action against Hungarian
Jews was being started the Jews, the diplomats of neutral countries who
had had access to concentration camps, and the general public knew that
the Nazis were performing mass gassings. This was the reason for the
competition between Adolf Eichmann and Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg
to gain access to and control over as many Jews as possible during the
summer of 1944.

9. The fact that the forensic examinations of gas chambers and gas chamber
remains conducted by the Polish authorities in 1945 and later, as well as
by people such as Fred Leuchter, all of which produced information
consistent with the other historical evidence indicating that the
structures in question had been exposed to lethal concentrations of
cyanide gas.

10. The fact that the people charged with having been accessories to mass
gassings at postwar trials in Germany, Austria, and Poland did not base
their defence on an attempt to deny the historical factuality of gassing,
but rather on their having been forced to obey orders to implement or
participate in gassings.


These could be claimed to be isolated facts, but we also have a good
understanding of the ideological precepts and objectives of the Nazi
state. By 1941 it had been established that:

1. Nazism was based on the idea of the strong taking advantage of the
weak. This was demonstrated for all the world by the euthanasia program,
within the fraework of which invalids, mental patients, deformed children,
terminally ill people, and Jews occupying hospital beds that were needed
for injured German soldiers were earmarked for extermination and killed by
gassing, lethal injections, or poisoning at dedicated edxtermination
centers such as Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim Castle, and
Sonnenstein.

2. Nazism had as one of its goals the "cleansing" of the European
continent of Jews, Gypsies, mulattos, and others deemed racially inferior.
Initially, the methods used were harassment, sterlization, denial of civil
rights, and confiscation of property. When the opportunity offered itself
harsher methods, including internment, enslavement, and mass murder were
used. The protocol of the Wannsee Conference, held after half a wear of
brutal and public mass killings of Jews and others in Eastern Europe
states clearly:

Source: http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html


Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to
be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews,
separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these
areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large
portion will be eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the
most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the
product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of
a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

In the course of the practical execution of the final solution, Europe
will be combed through from west to east. Germany proper, including the
Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, will have to be handled first due to
the housing problem and additional social and political necessities.

The evacuated Jews will first be sent, group by group, to so-called
transit ghettos, from which they will be transported to the East.


The Jews are to be indentified, rounded up, and sent Eastwards to function
as save labor so arduous that mnay of them "will be eliminated by natural
causes". Those that survive will "have to be treated accordingly", lest
they function as "as a the seed of a new Jewish revival". Since the
occupation of its neighbors and the assault on the USSR had allowed
Germany's anti-Jewish program to transcend its national borders, the scope
of the Final Solution was correspondingly widened:

"In the course of the practical execution of the final solution, Europe
will be combed through from west to east."

The scope of the final solution was given in the statistics included in
the protocol:



Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of
the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual
countries:

          Country                             Number

A.   Germany proper                          131,800
     Austria                                  43,700
     Eastern territories                     420,000
     General Government                    2,284,000
     Bialystok                               400,000
     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200
     Estonia         - free of Jews -
     Latvia                                    3,500
     Lithuania                                34,000
     Belgium                                  43,000
     Denmark                                   5,600
     France /  occupied territory            165,000
               unoccupied territory          700,000
     Greece                                   69,600
     Netherlands                             160,800
     Norway                                    1,300

B.   Bulgaria                                 48,000
     England                                 330,000
     Finland                                   2,300
     Ireland                                   4,000
     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000
     Albania                                     200
     Croatia                                  40,000
     Portugal                                  3,000
     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000
     Sweden                                    8,000
     Switzerland                              18,000
     Serbia                                   10,000
     Slovakia                                 88,000
     Spain                                     6,000
     Turkey (European portion)                55,500
     Hungary                                 742,800
     USSR                                  5,000,000
          Ukraine                          2,994,684
          White Russia
          excluding Bialystok                446,484


                         Total    over    11,000,000




The legal basis for the final solution would be the imposition of the
Nuremberg Laws which defined Jewishness on racial grounds in the countries
that were under Nazi control:

"In the course of the final solution plans, the Nuremberg Laws should
provide a certain foundation, in which a prerequisite for the absolute
solution of the problem is also the solution to the problem of mixed
marriages and persons of mixed blood."

*************************************************************

Established, then is the existence of:
a. methodology for mass murder by gassing;
b. personnel trained to commit mass murder by gassing;
c. a history of having used mass murder by gassing;
d. a history of having been caught red-handed and being the object of
universal scorn for having had mass-murder by gassing as a part of state
policy;
e. establishments, the planning and design for which must have dated from
no later than mid 1941, built with facilities suitable for mass murder by
gassing and staffed by personnel trained to commit mass murder by gassing;
f. several groups of special action forces, Einatzkommandos, functioning
according to an orally issued Führer Command and committing public
executions of Jews and others over the previous six months;
g. feedback from the field that these mass executions are logistical
nightmares, a public relations disaster, and leave too much incriminating
evidence;
h. a window of opportunity opening as a consequence of Germany's military
successes to determine the fate of all the Jews in Europe.
i. the protocol to a conference called by top Nazi leaders to co-ordinate
their efforts to rid the European continent of what the Germans consider
to be the Jewish race, using a combination of resettlement, brutal forced,
labor and approprate treatment for the elements strong enough to survive
the forced labor regime to achieve these ends.

*************************************************************

Summing up, we have:
a. material evidence in the form of structures claimed to have been and
shown to have been able to function as gas chambers;
b. independent testimonial evidence in the form of people who planned,
witnessed, supervised, or participated in various stages of the gassing
process;
c. forensic evidence showing that the structures and ventilation systems
of structures clamed to have functioned as gas chambers were exposed to
lethal concentrations of HCN;
d. forensic evidence in the form of large amounts of human remains found
in the vicinity of places such as Belzec which was an extermination center
and nothing else;
e. material evidence in the form of millions of people known to have been
arrested by the Nazis, sent to various camps according to train schedules
which are well known and have been preserved, and never seen or heard from
again once they boarded the train for the camp;
d. a motive: the Nazi clearly stated their objective of clearing the
European continent of Jews;
e. a previous history of criminal behavior: the Nazis were caught red
handed gassing and mass murdering their own citizens within the euthansia
program, and they had generated some unpleasant vibes with six months of
public mass killing and other exterminational activity against Jews in
occupied Eastern Europe.
f. public mass shootings suddenly stop in early 1942, this being
concurrent with the opening of extermination centers (Chelmo, Belzec,
Treblinka, Sobibor) and the construction of extermination divisions at
already existing camps 8Auschwitz, Majdanek). 
g. ghettoization, which previously ended with the inhabitants of the
ghetto being publicly marched to a nearby forest and shot, with stragglers
and attempted escapees shot on site during the public march, ended with
the ghetto inhabitants transported to some unspecified locality in the
East where some were selected to do forced labor, and others were last
seen waiting patiently outside buildings such as Krema II at
Auschwitz-Birkenau (http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/waiting.htm).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Mar 10 13:52:23 EST 2001
Article: 872441 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Repeating request for information about pitburning in Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:13:28 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <100320011913281214%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984244409 8686 128.214.199.213 (10 Mar 2001 17:13:29 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 17:13:29 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872441

In article , Rune Kristian
Viken  wrote:


> 
> Hmm.. Interesting.  Never heard about that.  What is this called, so that
> I can search for it on the web .. or mayhaps you've got a site to referr
> me to? 
> 

Du bruger kun vite om Hollands historie, min gode venn. Søk informasjon
om "afsluitsdijk" på Interneten.

Med de beste helsninger,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Mar 10 13:52:24 EST 2001
Article: 872442 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Incredible outburst of nonsense
Supersedes: <100320011856460963%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:06:06 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <100320011906064588%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3ad628e8.583497757@news.pacificnet.net> <20010310033445.11733.00000278@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3adb3d91.654333053@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984243966 7721 128.214.199.213 (10 Mar 2001 17:06:06 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 17:06:06 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872442

In article <3adb3d91.654333053@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:



> Moran began saying over two years ago, when the first reports of the
> alleged study were first released that we would be seeing nothing to
> prove any studies ever took place and that nothing was found and
> that's the way is today, and, that's the way it'll be tomorrow, next
> week, next month unto the years ahead.
> 
> There was no study and nothing was found.

There was a study and several thousand cubic meters of human remains
were found. Studies of this type are performed by making grid of the
area to be investigated and then taking so-called core samples. Markers
are put in the ground to indicate where the different core samples were
taken.

> Only an utter idiot would offer up two photos of two sticks in the
> ground as proof the alleged awesome study took place.

Only a moranic, blithering idiot would make a statement such as the
above which indicates a total ignorance of the manner in which forensic
archeologial investigations are conducted. Numerous esthetic, hygienic,
and cultural reasons preclude digging up every mass grave that we have
information about. Cobclusions about them can be made by analysis of
the core samples.

Even CODOH has no difficulty dealing with the fact that a forensic
archeological study was recently conducted at Belzec, cf.
http://codoh.com/newrevoices/ncrowell/nrvscbelzecdig.html

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:45 EST 2001
Article: 872537 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:52:57 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <100320012252573011%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>  <3AAA5D8C.1C008D70@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984257577 20528 128.214.199.213 (10 Mar 2001 20:52:57 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 20:52:57 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872537

In article <3AAA5D8C.1C008D70@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene: it is to be hoped that someday you will learn that there is a human
> limitation called the span of attention.
> 
> =====================

Richard, I was dealing with extant information. This is not an issue of
human cognitive capacities, but rather one of how one is to interact
with extant information. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:46 EST 2001
Article: 872543 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Incredible outburst of nonsense
Supersedes: <100320012324246482%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:26:19 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 211
Message-ID: <100320012326193445%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3adb3d91.654333053@news.pacificnet.net> <20010310141734.20568.00000632@ng-cn1.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984259579 22231 128.214.199.213 (10 Mar 2001 21:26:19 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 21:26:19 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872543

In article <20010310141734.20568.00000632@ng-cn1.aol.com>, Popeyesays
 wrote:

> Dear Mr. Moran
> 
> If you run the name  "Andrzej Kola" through your search engines you will find
> many hits - unfortunately, I do not read Polish and cannot interpret them for
> you. But if you trying to find any published scholarly work on the Belzec
> excavations, you will have to find someone to read the Polish for you.

Thanks. Scott. I am able to read Polish and I will slosh through the
references to Mr. Kola for anything relevant. But knowledge of Polish
is not a "sine qua non". Here is another article in English referring to
the Belzec digs, which Mr. Moran, in his typical denier modality,
claims never took place.

Source:
http://www.business-server.com/newsroom/ntn/world/072198/world14_13025_n
oframes.html


Archeologists unearth new secrets of Holocaust

Copyright © 1998 Nando.net
Copyright © 1998 Reuters News Service 

WASHINGTON (July 21, 1998 10:52 a.m. EDT http://www.nandotimes.com) - A
team of archeologists excavating the neglected site of a Nazi
extermination camp in Poland are uncovering new secrets from the
Holocaust.

They are conducting an unprecedented survey of the Belzec camp in
eastern Poland where at least 600,000 Jews were murdered in 1942 and
1943.

Under an agreement between the Polish government and the United States
Holocaust Museum in Washington, a new memorial is due to be erected at
the site next year to replace a crumbling sculpture placed there by the
former Polish Communist authorities that Jewish visitors found
objectionable.

The archeological survey conducted last October and between April and
June of this year was headed by Andrzej Kola, director of the
Underwater Archeological Department at the University of Torun, and
Mieczyslaw Gora, senior curator of the Museum of Archeology and
Ethnology in Lodz.

Holocaust scholars have hailed it as an important step forward in the
study of the Nazis' murder of 6 million Jews during the Second World
War.

"This was the first archeological survey on this scale done
systematically on a grid system and we have learned many new things,"
said Jacek Nowakowski, associate director of the Holocaust Museum,
coordinating the project from the U.S. side.

Michael Tregenza, a British historian assisting the survey, said the
team drilled 1,600 bore holes at 15-foot intervals, collected soil
samples for laboratory analysis and excavated selected sites to a depth
of up to 18 feet .


One of six Nazi extermination camps

Belzec was one of six extermination camps erected by the Nazis and the
first to use gas chambers. The other five were Treblinka, Sobibor,
Majdanek, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Chelmno.

Relatively little is known about Belzec because only five Jews who
passed through survived, none of whom is alive today. Some testimony
emerged from a trial of Nazi guards in Germany in the early 1960s but
most of those responsible for the horrors there were never identified
or brought to justice.

But one of the most vivid testimonies from the Holocaust relates to
Belzec. It was left by SS Lt. Kurt Gerstein who visited the camp in
August 1942 and witnessed the arrival of a transport of 6,700 Jews, of
whom 1,450 were already dead after several days crammed in cattle cars
without food or water.

Gerstein saw the Jews pushed into two gas chambers by SS men wielding
whips. A 5-year-old girl dropped a necklace and a 3-year-old boy picked
it up as they passed into the chamber, where victims were crammed in so
tightly they could not move. Then the door swung shut.

He later told how he stood outside with a stopwatch and timed how long
it took for people to die. He described how for three hours the diesel
engine that was supposed to pump deadly carbon monoxide into the
chamber would not work. Finally, it stuttered to life.

"Up till then people were still alive in the chamber. Another 25
minutes went by. True, many were now dead. After 28 minutes only a few
were still alive. At least, after 32 minutes, everyone was dead like
pillars of basalt, still erect, not having any place to fall," Gerstein
testified.


Families still holding hands in death

"One could tell families even in death. They were still holding hands,
stiffened in death so that it was difficult to tear them apart to clear
the chamber for the next load."

On his way back to Germany, Gerstein met a Swedish diplomat on a train
and poured out the whole story, crying and smoking incessantly. The
diplomat filed a report for his embassy but it was never acted on.

Gerstein also told a Protestant bishop and the papal nuncio in Berlin
what he had seen. Both ignored him. After the war he was captured by
the French and, after giving them an account of what he had seen,
committed suicide in July 1945.

There were no crematories at Belzec so victims were dumped in anti-tank
ditches. Toward the end of the war, when it was clear Germany was
headed for defeat, the Nazis brought in squads of Jewish prisoners to
destroy the evidence. Bodies were crushed and burned and camp
structures were torn down.

But the archeological survey shows that the evidence of the genocide
still lies buries just below the surface. According to a report by
Robin O'Neill, a British scholar who took part in the survey, the team
located 33 mass graves.

"The largest mass graves ... contained unburned human remains (parts
and pieces of skulls with hair and skin attached). The bottom layer of
the graves consisted of several inches thick of black human fat. One
grave contained uncrushed human bones so closely packed that the drill
could not penetrate," O'Neill wrote.

Tregenza estimated that some 15,000 unburned corpses still lie in the
earth of Belzec. Nowakowski believes some of the unburned bodies
discovered this year were probably the remains of the Jews brought to
the site to burn the victims' corpses.


Many Jews employed in burning bodies

"The fact that there were many more people employed in burning the
bodies than we thought suggests they had many more bodies to burn. We
may have to revise upward the estimate of the number who died at Belzec
and that only increases the huge significance of the site," he said.

One of the graves resembles the execution pit described by death camp
staff at their trial where old and sick victims who were too infirm to
go through the extermination process unaided were dispatched with a
bullet to the back of the neck.

The team also unearthed various other items including the lid of a
silver cigarette case bearing the inscription "Max Munk" and an address
in Vienna.

Tregenza said the excavations have confirmed that two railway sidings
existed within the camp. The team was able to date the different-sized
graves tentatively by matching them to information about the arrival of
different transports.

The largest, 210 by 60 feet, apparently were dug to accommodate the
victims of the large transports, carrying between 150,000 and 180,000
people, which arrived almost daily during the peak period of the
gassing operation in August and September of 1942.

The remains of barracks, foundations of the camp generator and living
quarters of the Ukrainian guard unit were also found but many questions
remain, including the exact location of the main gate and the precise
dimensions of the camp.


Communists built pathways atop mass graves

"The most disturbing fact, confirmed by the recent investigations, is
that in the early 1960s, the Communist authorities laid out the area of
remembrance and erected monuments without any regard for the original
layout of the death camp," Tregenza wrote in his report.

"The monuments and pathways were built on top of mass graves. The area
of the present fenced-in site was also considerably reduced in size.
Belzec is a prime example of the Communist falsification of history,"
he wrote.

Jewish visitors had complained for years that the site was neglected,
overgrown with weeds and strewn with garbage. They also said the
memorial was inappropriate and falling apart.

The Polish government and the Holocaust Museum quietly signed an
agreement last year to build a new memorial and Polish Prime Minister
Jerzy Buzek confirmed during a recent visit to Washington that
construction would begin next year.

"Construction will begin in the near future. Archeological work is
going on at that site and new discoveries are being made
systematically," Buzek told reporters.

But building a new memorial may not solve the problem. Tregenza
reported that what he called "anti-Semitic elements" in the village of
Belzec had disrupted the survey by scattering human remains around and
partially demolishing the exposed brick and concrete cellar that had
been uncovered.

"Certain anti-Semitic members of the local population have already
informed me that 'a Jewish museum in Belzec will not last long,"'
Tregenza said in his report. 

By ALAN ELSNER, Reuters



The world moves on. Mr. Moran remains stuck in his little personal
morass.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:46 EST 2001
Article: 872544 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Incredible outburst of nonsense
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:42:21 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <100320012342211238%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3ad628e8.583497757@news.pacificnet.net> <20010310033445.11733.00000278@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3adb3d91.654333053@news.pacificnet.net> <100320011856460963%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3add7ba4.670226847@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984260540 23213 128.214.199.213 (10 Mar 2001 21:42:20 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2001 21:42:20 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872544

In article <3add7ba4.670226847@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> 
> Okay we see Holman has said it wouldn't be practical to dig up "every
> mass grave" as if to make seem like it would be too much. But then
> again no one said anything about digging up "every" mass grave. The
> fact is, no Holocaust mass graves have ever been excavated. We see
> Holman would have "esthetic, hygienic and cultural reasons" that
> "preclude" doing a recognized procedure. What Holman really means they
> shouldn't do one at all. What's Holman's problem anyway. What about
> the alleged digs at Serinki which Holman himself will post as proof
> that investigations have taken place. What are the "cultural"
> considerations? That it's not okay to expose a grave of Jews but for
> any others okay? What about "esthetics"? What will Holman return with
> to explain that? And what about "health" reasons? Are we to suppose
> there is a significant health risk? What a bunch of baby logic.
> 
> The alleged studies at Belzec are supposed to have revealed there are
> tens of thousands of uncremated bodies there. Initiate a full blown
> forensic archaeological study, open to outsiders to witness, expose
> the proof and issue a full report with ever detail including
> photographs and the Holocaust is shown to be true. It's that simple.
> What makes it not so simple for those that claim the study took place
> is there was no study, there is nothing below the ground except the
> exact same regolith that has been there since the Ice Age, that there
> is nothing there but proof the study never took place and if one was
> nothing would be found.  
> 
> Holman tries to say "CODOH" believes it:
> >Even CODOH has no difficulty with the fact that a forensic
> >archeological study was recently conducted at Belzec, cf.
> >http://codoh.com/newrevoices/ncrowell/nrvscbelzecdig.html
> 
> The fact is it's Crowell's belief which happens to be on CODOH.

The fact is that it is CODOH which happens to have decided that what
Crowell has to write about the Belzec archeological study is consistent
with its own agenda.

> 
> I stepped on the rat's face the very first time it stuck its head out
> of the hole over two years ago. I said it was phony. I said we would
> never see any credible documentation there was a study and something
> was found, and that's the way it is today, over two years later, and
> that's the way it's going to be next year and the year after unto
> ever.

 Portrait of a man drowning.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:47 EST 2001
Article: 872727 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer1.nac.net!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Repeating request for information about pitburning in Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:50:29 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <110320011750296954%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:   <3aaa69e3$0$194@news.impulse.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984325828 19565 128.214.199.213 (11 Mar 2001 15:50:28 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2001 15:50:28 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872727

In article , Rune Kristian
Viken  wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:53:26 -0800, Waldo  wrote:
> 
> >> The water table, which determines the level of the ground water, varies
> >> with the seasons and can be radically altered by human intervention. The
> >> technology, which the Dutch had mastered during the Middle Ages, is not
> >> complex.
> > I can see it now, the latest Spielberg holocaust movie: "THE WINDMILLS OF
> > AUSCHWITZ"
> > I'll wait till it's released on video.
> 
> Please explain.  What does windmills have with Auschwitz to do?  Or with
> the watertable to do?  I really don't see any connection, but please -
> correct me if i'm wrong.

Windmills provide a source of continuous energy needed to power the
pumps that transfer water from one place to another, thus ensuring that
the water table at a given place will be lower than it otherwise would
be. That is why the landscape of the Netherlands, a considerable
portion of whose land was gained by human manipulation of the water
table, is dotted with windmills. For example, the former Zuiderzee,
several meters below the North Sea, was pumped and is kept dry by the
energy provided to the necessary pumps by windmills.

Med vennlige hilsninger,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:47 EST 2001
Article: 872730 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You Want Holocaust Evidence?
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:12:31 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <110320011812316455%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <98bbbk$al6$1@news.netmar.com> <3aa95616$0$198@news.impulse.net> <893jatst254c9ul1esljou9c4b4hupu4t3@4ax.com> <3aaadefd$0$192@news.impulse.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984327151 20804 128.214.199.213 (11 Mar 2001 16:12:31 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2001 16:12:31 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:872730

In article <3aaadefd$0$192@news.impulse.net>, Waldo
 wrote:



> 
> On the other hand, the Nanjing Massacre and the Rape of Nanking (which were
> in many ways far more brutal that the "Holocaust") are regarded by most as
> just another wartime occurrence that is every bit as forgettable as it is
> regrettable.
> 
> In fact, I'd wager that nine out of ten people who are somewhat familiar
> with the "Holocaust" stories have never even heard of Nanking, the Khmer
> Rouge, or the Soviet's slaughter of somewhere near 60 million people.
> 
> There is something wrong with this picture: Either we are paying far too
> little attention to all of the other heinous, barbaric slaughters of
> humanity that occurred in the 20th century, or we are paying far too much
> homage to the Jewish "Holocaust".
> 

Japanese behavior in China, the Khmer Rouge slaughter of urban
intellectuals, the Soviet Union's policy of forced hunger and gulags,
not to mention the Turkish genocide of the Armenians and the Hutu/Tutsi
massacres are known, too well known, to most of the participants in
this newsgroup. 

Still, the Jewish Holocaust is qualitatively and quantitatively
something different. Qualitatively because the goal was not just to
kill Jews, but rather, after an initial orgy of universal mass murder, 
to enslave as many healthy Jews as possible, forcing them to
participate in both the killing of fellow Jews as well as in the
production of the materiel needed by the German army to get its hands
on more Jews to kill and enslave. Quantitatively because the perceived
problems of one country with its local Jews were extended to an entire
continent - no more than 5% of the Holocaust victims were German
nationals. Not even the Japanese attempted to find and kill every
possible Chinese or Korean in Asia, none of the other genocides were
implemented in such a cynical manner that the group to be liquidated
was forced to work running the machinery of genocide. The Jewish
Holocaust is not just a genocide, it is an instructive, unique, and
prophylactic example of the depths of human hate, cynicism, and
depravity.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:48 EST 2001
Article: 872736 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:37:29 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <110320011837296525%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984328648 22108 128.214.199.213 (11 Mar 2001 16:37:28 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2001 16:37:28 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521625 alt.politics.nationalism.white:506892 alt.revisionism:872736

In article <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Andy Walton wrote:
> 
> > In article <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > [intimidation]
> >
> >   :HItler saw no need to do this. The ordinary Aryan German never felt
> >   :threatened.
> >
> > That would depend on your definitions of "ordinary" "Aryan" and "German."
> > Millions of Germans fled the Third Reich. Most of them were not Jews.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Millions fled; most of them not Jews?
> All this is news to me. Could you elaborate?
> 
> ===========================

For starters, have you never heard of Willy Brandt?

Source: http://www.geocities.com/~KashaLinka/brandt_bio.html

Politically active as a young person, Brandt became a member of the
socialist labour party (SAP) in 1931. In 1933 he fled the Nazi regime
and went to Scandinavia (Oslo, Norway) where he worked as a journalist
(under the pen name Willy B.). The Nazis revoked his German citizenship
and he took Norwegian nationality in 1938. 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:48 EST 2001
Article: 873111 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Supersedes: <120320011718256136%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:34:16 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 152
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <120320011734163340%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AAB08FE.235C5702@verizon.net>  <3AAC5D61.AEB419F5@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984411253 7980 128.214.199.213 (12 Mar 2001 15:34:13 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:34:13 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521729 alt.politics.nationalism.white:506974 alt.revisionism:873111

In article <3AAC5D61.AEB419F5@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Orac wrote:
> 

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I would say that the ball is in your court to prove that the ordinary Aryan
> German WAS in constant fear of the Gestapo. Burden of proof on the
> affirmative: remember?
> 
> ===================================================


Many ordinary Aryan Germans were in constant fear of the Nazi
government.

Non-communist political activists of a leftist persuasion such as Willy
Brandt and Herbert Wehner were forced into exile, outspoken clergyman
with strong Christian principles such as Martin Niemöller and Dietrich
Bonhoeffer were arrested, put in concentration camps, and, as was
Bonhoeffer, often executed there. People with non-confomist religious
views, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and activist pacifists were
terrorized, arrested, and killed as warning examples. Tens of thousands
of people with what were considered to be racial defects could expect
to be sterilized, often without their knowledge or consent. Worst of
all, the relatives of people with incurable diseases, mental illness,
or physical deformities knew that at any moment they could expect a
letter telling how their loved one had died at a facilitiy such as
Grafeneck or Hadamar. By the time Archbishop von Galen spoke out about
euthanasia during the summer of 1941, more than a hundred thousand
ordinary Germans had been informed of the untimely death of a loved
one, a person who had actually been gassed, starved, or administered a
lethal injection by a euthanasia specialist, and hundreds of thousands
more were aware that they could expect such a letter at any time.

Many ordinary Aryan Germans were in constant fear of the Nazi
government. As the virulence of Nazism spread beyond Germany's borders
many people who had been German citizens, whether Aryans or non-Aryans,
but had feared or despised Nazism enough to have the good sense to take
up residence in the Netherlands, France, Austria, or some country
further afield in Europe such as Greece or Latvia, found themselves
caught up in its web. There are, for example, cases of Germans married
to Jews who wanted to save themselves the humiliation that the
Nuremberg Laws would have meant for their marriage by moving abroad,
only to be arrested, tried, and severly punished for racial violations
once the Nazis invaded their new homeland and sought them out. German
blood was deemed by the Nazi government to be the property of the
German "Volk", not of the individual, and laws were passed depriving
the individual of the right to determine who could or could not be his
or her spouse or lover.

You might not know this well-known poem:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out ‹ because I was not a Jew. 

Then they came for the communists 
and I did not speak out ‹ because I was not a communist. 

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out ‹ because I was not a trade unionist. 

Then they came for me ‹
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me. 

- attributed to anti-Hitler activist Martin Niemöller

***********************************************
Source: http://serendipity.nofadz.com/cda/niemoll.html

According to Harry W. Mazal, the exact text of what Martin Niemöller
said, and which appears in the Congressional Record, 14, October 1968,
page 31636, is: 


When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not
concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a
Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked
the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and
I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church
‹ and there was nobody left to be concerned. 
***********************************************
>From the website of the Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Museum.

Source:
http://www.cc-memorial-site-dachau.org/gedenkstaette/english/frame/idx_g
ese.htm

The Prisoners

The first prisoners were political opponents of the regime: communists,
social democrats, members of the trade unions and a few members of the
conservative and the liberal parties. Also, the first Jewish prisoners
were imprisoned in Dachau because of their political beliefs. In the
following years new groups of prisoners were deported to Dachau: Jews,
Homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovahs' Witnesses, Clergymen and others. After
the November pogroms in 1938, the so-called "Crystal Night," more than
10,000 Jews were brought to Dachau.

>From 1938 on, the prisoners' society in the concentration camp in
Dachau reflected the National Socialist aggression. After the annexion
of Austria in the spring of 1938, Austrian prisoners were brought to
Dachau and subsequently, in the same year, prisoners from the
"Sudeten"-area. In March 1939 Czech prisoners were brought to Dachau,
and after the beginning of the war prisoners from Poland, Norway,
Belgium, the Netherlands, France and so on.

Finally, the German prisoners were a minority; the Polish prisoners
were the largest national group, followed by the prisoners from the
Soviet Union. Altogether, there were more than 200,000 prisoners from
more than 30 countries imprisoned in Dachau.

*********************

Surce:
http://www.cc-memorial-site-dachau.org/gedenkstaette/english/frame/idx_g
ese.htm

During the war Dachau concentration camp became a place of mass murder.
Beginning in October 1941, thousands of Soviet prisoners of war were
brought to Dachau and shot. Also, others who the Gestapo, the Secret
Police ordered to be executed, were transported to Dachau and killed.

A large number of prisoners were misused by SS doctors for medical
experiments. There were high altitude experiments, cooling and freezing
experiments, a series of malaria experiments and others. An unknown
number of prisoners died excruciating deaths.

So-called invalid transports began in January 1942. More than 3000
prisoners were taken to the former sanatorium at Hartheim castle near
Linz, and murdered there with Carbon monoxide.

There were 30,000 registered deaths in the Dachau concentration camp.
Additional, thousands who were not registered were murdered in Dachau.
The prisoners died of starvation, sickness, exhaustion, degradation,
beating, and torture. They were shot, hanged and killed with
injections.

In 1942 a gas chamber was also built in the Dachau concentration camp,
but inexplicably, it was not used. It was located within the new
crematorium, a larger building whose construction with four ovens
became necessary when the first crematorium, which had only one oven,
proved inadequate.


*********************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:48 EST 2001
Article: 873128 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!peer.news.opaltelecom.net!londen1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Supersedes: <120320011835143328%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:45:28 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 162
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984415525 12185 128.214.199.213 (12 Mar 2001 16:45:25 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:45:25 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521736 alt.politics.nationalism.white:506983 alt.revisionism:873128

In article <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> 
> ===========================================
> phillips
> 
> YOur numbers --if they are true-- are certainly impressive, more than I had
> suspected, BUT they do not constitute "millions."
> 
> ===================================

That's only those who entered the United States. Many more, such as the
Frank family, sought refuge from Nazism in neighboring countries, only
to be caught up in the vortex of Nazism when their new homeland was
invaded and occupied by the Nazis.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> America has a 200 year old tradition of peacefuly-elected governments. This
> is not
> the world's norm; it is a very rare exception. European politics can be
> lethal.
> Nazi Germany just did not believe in the free marketplace of ideas.
> 
> ===================================

Nazi Germany believed that it is the obligation of the strong to crush
the weak, that the individual is the property of the state, and that
the state is the embodiment of the collective will of the nation.

Hence
- the undeclared, unprovoked invasion of smaller, weaker countries
(Luxembourg, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, and Norway were a threat
to Germany?);
- programs of mass sterilization and euthanasia;
- strict laws outlawing marriage and sexual congress between people
of different ethnicities;
- the application of laws legislated in Germany to deal with German
problems in the countries which the Nazis invaded, thus, for example,
the Nuremberg Laws and amendments which effectively criminalized both
Jewish/Aryan marriages as well as Jewishness itself were applied in
Nazi-occupied  countries such as the Netherlands, Estonia, Latvia, and
Hungary.
- the intolerance for dissent, hence the concentration camps such as
Ravensbrück and Dachau, many of the inmates at which were political
opponents of the Nazi regime or individuals whose public or private
behavior or beliefs were regarded as "asocial" by the Nazis'
provincial understanding of the parameters within which a member of the
German "Volk" could vary.

> 
> > Let 'em
> > rant, and answer them in public. It's been an effective tactic for the
> > United States.
> 
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Has it? Among other things it has brought us are:
> 
> (1) Niggers mobbing white people in Seattle and, in the same breath, demanding
> 'reparations' for the great 'wrongs' done them.

First of all, it was not only black people that were rioting in
Seattle. Blacks, whites, and others behaved churlishly. Secondly, the
number of blacks that behaved churlishly was at most a few dozen. There
is no collective racial responsibility for a handful of punks. The vast
majority of the people of all races behaved properly at Seattle; it was
baby riot compared to the much more violent and much more white-fueled
WTO rioting, for which I don't see you making any collective racial
charges, in the same city recently. Thirdly, the behavior of a few
dozen punks in one city on one evening has nothing whatsoever to do
with the historical legacy of slavery.

> ===================================================
> Phillips
>
> (2) A congress so corrupt they have more than once been called a Parliament of
> Whores.

Sticks and stones...

> ===================================================
> Phillips 
>
> (3) POliticianss so utterly corrupt that, for the past 50 years, they have
> been
> seeling out the American people in the name of their turdbrained notion of
> free
> trade.

Free trade has greatly contributed to making the United States the
richest and most powerful nation in human history. It has allowed the
US to concentrating on doing best what it does best, while farming out
many less demanding and less profitable jobs to those who can do them
best. One important spinoff of free trade is that it has allowed
countries like Mexico to join the ranks of relatively wealthy and
technologically sophisticated nations, thus giving many Mexicans a
greater incentive to stay at home rather than try to enter the United
States legally or illegally. Without free trade the living standards
gap between the US and Mexico would be much greater than it is today,
with all of the attendant problems that would generate.
 
> ===================================================
> Phillips 
>
> Give me a dictatorship any day.
> 
> ================================

Tell me about the grand things accomplished by the likes of Ceausesu,
Honecker, Brezhnev, Franco, Salazar, Stroessner. Tell me of the great
accomplishments of Adolf Hitler and his gang of thugs during their
twelve years at the helm in Germany, about how Germany was a better
place in 1945 than it had been in 1933.


> >
> >   :They had had 15 years of "democracy" and wanted no more of it.
> >
> > The Nazis never got more than 43% of the vote in a contested election.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> At the beginning the working classes were mainly anti-Nazi. Gradually they
> were
> won over when they saw and enjoyed the great benefits of National Socialism.
> 
> ===========================================

Benefits like Gestapo informers on every block, like having your family
history checked for Jewish ancestry, and, after 1941, like living in
fear that your home would be bombed, or that the males in the family
could be called up for military service in the East. Nazi family values
discouraged women from learning how to earn a livelihood, while
producing extraordinary numbers of young widows.


> >   :It was a common saying among
> >   :them that: "We have won freedom from freedom." Does that mystify you?
> >
> > Not in the slightest. "Hail Ceaucescu" was a common saying in Romania.
> > Repressive regimes seldom want for people to shout their slogans.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> As I have mentioned before, other peoples do not always and necessarily value
> the
> things we feel they ought to value. The Vietnamese are a case in point.
> 
> ===================================

Gee, I always thought that the Vietnamese valued a homeland at peace
and free of people fighting colonial wars against them.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:49 EST 2001
Article: 873152 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:27:32 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <120320012127325007%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net> <3aacf13a.236040646@news.greynet.net> <3AACFE08.75A1276A@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984425253 21795 128.214.199.213 (12 Mar 2001 19:27:33 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:27:33 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521749 alt.politics.nationalism.white:506990 alt.revisionism:873152

In article <3AACFE08.75A1276A@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> The devastating Allied air raids changed not only the German landscape but
> undoubtedly the German character as well. After what they had been through,
> it is
> hardly surprising that they wanted no more of glory and conquest. To that
> extent I
> certainly agree that their collective decision was a wise one.

What glory does a country gain from invading and occupying countries
with the size or population of Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands,
Denmark, or Norway? If nations interact with one another solely on the
basis of brute force applied when the other least expects it, we revert
to a world in which life is nasty, brutish, and short

> 
> As for the "legislative measures that ensure your sort never again achieve
> power
> there", while this seems to be the will of their Bundstag, I am far from
> convincved that, in its severity, it also represents the will of the German
> people. The two are not necessarily congruent.
> 
> ==========================================================

Germany is too diversified a nation for it to be possible to speak of
any collective "will of the German people". Nevertheless, the duly
elected members of the Bundestag represent a more accurate reflection
of how the Germans think as a nation than do the few hundred skinheads
who have been making life misreable for many residents of and visitors
to Germany.



> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is one thing to come to hard on active attempts to reinstitute a regime
> bent on
> foreign military adventures.
> It is quite another to imprison people for doing nothing more than publicly
> questioning accepted versions of recent historical events. Perhaps you are in
> favour of this; I am not.
> 
> ==============================================================

Accepted norms of behavior in some countries have zero tolerance for
public exhibitions of idiocy. Any German can discuss the Holocaust or
take a revisionist view in a forum such as this, or in a scholarly
journal. Going out into the street and drumming "The Nazis did not use
gas chambers" is regarded with as much sympathy as publicly proclaiming
that Germany only lost WW II because it got some bad breaks.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:49 EST 2001
Article: 873159 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:59:49 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 87
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <120320012159491500%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>  <3AAC5AF1.FC164EA5@verizon.net>  <3AACE6E2.3ABC2BA4@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984427189 23839 128.214.199.213 (12 Mar 2001 19:59:49 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:59:49 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:873159

In article <3AACE6E2.3ABC2BA4@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:
> 
> > In article <3AAC5AF1.FC164EA5@verizon.net>, "Liar Philllips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > It is either the case that Monica did or did not give Clinton several blow
> > > jobs.
> > > Which do you believe is the case. I simply take the position that, of
> > > these
> > > two alternatives, the affirmtive is by far the more lilkely.
> >
> > On the basis of what evidence do you take the position that the affirmative
> > is
> > far more likely?
> >
> > JGB
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) Clinton was certainly a fancier of blow jobs

The Nazis had a track record of liking to kill people by gassing them,
cf. the euthanasia program. Clinton, if he is lucky, has had 1,000 blow
jobs in his life. The Nazis gassed tens of thousands of invalids,
mental patients, and deformed children within the space of a year. On a
more general level, Bill Clinton is a fancier of sexual activity just
as the Nazis, with their concentration camps, death camps,
Einstazkommandos, unannounced early morning sneak attacks, death
marches, pseudo-medical experiments, euthanasia programs, work-to-the
death regimes, typhus-ridden detention camps, inhuman transportstion
conditions, Buna diets, and gas chambers were fanciers of
exterminationist mass murder.

> (2) All the newspaper articles

There are more carefully edited academic publications, carefully
presented court trials, and physical evidence indicating that the Nazis
gassed both institutionalized patients and concentration camp inmates
than there are academic and popular publications demonstrating Bill
Clinton to have received oral sex from Monica Lewinsky.

> (3) Clinton's weaseling on the witness stand - trying to make out that a blow
> job
> did not constitute sex

Accused Nazis such as Rudolf Höß, Hans Münch, and Adolf Eichmann not
only never denied the use of gassing, but also gave details when on
trial that only an insider could know. Various aspects of their
testimony were independently corroborated by surviving members of the
Sonderkommando, escaped concentration camp inmates, the suppliers of
Zyklon-B, and other evidence. In other words, there was so little hard
evidence for Clinton's having been serviced by Monica that he saw fit
to risk his reputation by going into denial, while there is so much
overwhelming evidence for the Nazi use of gassing as extermiantionist
policy that none of the persons involved thought it possible to deny it
when on trial.

> 
> (4) The fact that the American presidency (indeed America itself) became a
> joke.There was this German wag who referred to "The Oral Office."

The fact that the term "Nazi" has become a symbol for extermination as
state policy, and that the reputation of Nazism, if not necessarily of
Germany, was destroyed for more than two generations because of it.
Several years ago a Frenchman who had murdered his wife in a fit of
rage pleaded to the court for mercy, and was accorded some sympathy,
because "she served him roast beef cooked like a Nazi would".

 
> (5) The fact of children asking their parents: "Daddy, what's oral sex."

The fact that the children living in the vicinities of Auschwitz and
Hadamar knew what lay in store for the people being transported there.


The type of evidence you are using to decide that Bill Clinton had his
knob polished by Monica in the Oral Office is precisely the same kind,
although qualitatively and quantitatively much weaker, as what you are
rejecting as support for allegations that the Nazis were
exterminationist gassers.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:49 EST 2001
Article: 873456 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Supersedes: <130320010814533876%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:47:25 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 140
Message-ID: <130320010847251230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net> <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984466040 28723 128.214.199.213 (13 Mar 2001 06:47:20 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 06:47:20 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521846 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507085 alt.revisionism:873456

In article , the
 wrote:

> Oh my god you are ignorant!
> 
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
>

> >
> > First of all, it was not only black people that were rioting in
> > Seattle. Blacks, whites, and others behaved churlishly. Secondly, the
> > number of blacks that behaved churlishly was at most a few dozen. There
> > is no collective racial responsibility for a handful of punks. The vast
> > majority of the people of all races behaved properly at Seattle; it was
> > baby riot compared to the much more violent and much more white-fueled
> > WTO rioting, for which I don't see you making any collective racial
> 
> ............................................................................
> .................................................
> Really? I don't remember hearing about anyone getting beat to death trying
> to help a woman who was being beaten by a gang of thugs.
> ............................................................................
> .................................................

But you do remember hearing about days and nights of rioting, and
millions of dollars in property damage. The Mardi Gras rioting was much
tamer, much more contained, much less violent, despite the unfortunate
death.



> ............................................................................
> .....................
> America quickly became a wealthy country just like Japan and Germany did
> after WW2 by imposing tarriffs on imports to force the country to develop
> business and industry to provide for its own needs. Ever since we have gone
> down the free trade route, wages have continued to slide while warm-body
> jobs like cashier take the place of production jobs which were able to
> sustain an entire faminly. 

It's the same development in all of the developed world. I'm writing
>from Finland, a highly developed industrial country, and we have
precisely the same development: production jobs and the high wages they
once generated are disappearing, service jobs are increasing.

Production jobs could only generate high wages when the pool of skilled
workers was small enough to justify such wages. Now that production has
become so computer intensive, the number of people needed is smaller,
while the pool of people competing for the continually decreasing
number of production jobs is larger. In the US, a lot of
labor-intensive production is farmed out to low wage countries such as
Mexico, or to low-wage states such as South Carolina or Mississippi.
Here in Finland, a high-wage country, labor intensive work is farmed
out to the low-wage Baltic countries, Poland, or Russia.

> The consumer price index has quadrupled since the
> free trade era began. We are becoming dependent on the rest of the world for
> everything; up to 15% now from 2% during WW2. You remember what happened
> when we only a little dependent on oil in the 70's and the supply got cut.
> What do you think might happen today if the supply got cut? Corporate
> profits have gone through the roof while the gap between rich and poor grows
> every year. 

So, you are admitting that it's not a problem of free trade, but rather
one of who has a claim on the profits thus generated. Those are two
very different issues.


> The problem with free trade is that it is not free. We have a
> several hundred million dollar yearly trade deficit to prove that. 

The deficit shows that it's free. The alternative is what Finland and
the USSR used to have: bilateral trade. Every five years an agreement
was drawn up: umpteen kazillion baggy men's suits for so and so many
billion barrels of oil. No money was involved, neither was there any
incentive to improve the quality or quantity of goods traded. As soon
as the USSR collapsed, bilateral trade was tossed out of the window.


> It gets
> even more expensive when you factor in things like Gulf Wars to keep the oil
> flowing. Free trade also assumes that everyone plays by the rules. We are
> one of the few countries dumb enought to try playing by the rules of free
> trade. 

The US, with one of the highest standards of living in the world, seem
to be doing pretty well playing by the riules.

> If you think free trade is so good, tell Harley Davidson and the
> politicians that supported a special import tax to protect them from dumping
> on the US market. Man you need to read some stuff that Smith, Lincoln and
> Washington said, instead Ferris Bueller. It was just as true then as it is
> now. The English have already sold their asses on the free trade market, I
> don't see why we should follow. Mexico has made that much progress already?
> I don't see them gaining anymore than what we gave them for free. Mexicans
> have a greater incentive to stay home? Maybe you should go tell them that.
> ............................................................................
> ...................

The UK had to go the free trade route because small, isolated economies
are unsustainable in Europe. They will be doing so rethinking, though,
when they clear up the hoof-and-mouth disease problem. The
industrialization of food production in the name of free trade has made
food cheaper, but also created the kinds of conditions which allow
diseases to spread among cattle in ways that would have been impossible
when agriculture was more isolated. 

As to Mexico, my inderstanding is that the North American free trade
agreement has seen moderately high-tech factories employing hundreds of
thousands of mexicans spring up in the areas along the Mexicon border
and allowing Mexico to produced fairly sophisticated, labor-intensive
products for the American and Canadian market. The Americans and
Canadians gain, because the products can be produced at a more
favorable price using low-priced Mexican labor than they would
if-higher priced American or Canadian laor were used, while the
Mexicans earn wages which motivate them to stay at their jobs in Mexico
rather than seek to compete with Americans for the decreasing number of
industrial jobs in the US. The industrial jobs requiring the highest
degree of skills and generating the best wages and profits, such as
manufacturing jet aircraft, remain in the US and are lucrative enough
to justify the desire of corporations to want to specialize in this
area, where American know-how and labor efficiency remains supreme,
while allowing the simpler and less efficient jobs that require only an
eighth-grade education, simple skills, and a low level of technical
sophistication to be done by those who cannot do any better at the
going world-market wage.

In short, it's a matter of what economists call added value. If there
is a demand for washing machines and jet aircraft and you have access
to supplies of glass, steel, rubber, and plastic, should you use your
labor force to build washing machines, jet aircraft, or both? It is so
much more profitable (that is to say, so much more value is added to
your raw material) to convert your raw materials into jet aircraft that
it is better to seel them and buy washing machines elsewhere than it is
to use your resources to satisfy the market for both products.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:49 EST 2001
Article: 873477 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:26:31 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <130320011226312163%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net> <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>  <130320010847251230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AADD2CD.3E6589DF@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984479187 11391 128.214.199.213 (13 Mar 2001 10:26:27 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 10:26:27 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521860 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507103 alt.revisionism:873477

In article <3AADD2CD.3E6589DF@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 

> (11) It will be utterly useless for you to speak to us of efficiency, of
> comparative advantage, of cost effectiveness or to make any other silly noises.
> YOu will not be heard.
> 
> =======================================================


It is economic folly to use your raw materials and human resources to
produce low-value-added washing machines that are produced in abundance
and more cheaply elsewhere, if they can be used to produced high-value
added products such as jet aircraft, which are above all possible
competition.

The amount of money and energy that will be needed to keep the market
closed to imports will add further to the price of the expensive and
already non-competitive domestic products. The only real economic
weapon available as a defence against the price differential is
currency devaluation which, of course, would bring the price of the
domestic product closer to that of the competition, while also lowering
domestic living standards across the line.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:50 EST 2001
Article: 873573 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:40:36 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 117
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <130320011940368511%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net> <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>  <130320010847251230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AADD2CD.3E6589DF@verizon.net> <130320011226312163%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AAE27B5.53367A24@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984505236 6146 128.214.199.213 (13 Mar 2001 17:40:36 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 17:40:36 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521890 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507139 alt.revisionism:873573

In article <3AAE27B5.53367A24@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> > > =======================================================
> >
> > It is economic folly to use your raw materials and human resources to
> > produce low-value-added washing machines that are produced in abundance
> > and more cheaply elsewhere, if they can be used to produced high-value
> > added products such as jet aircraft, which are above all possible
> > competition.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Your mistake here is to assume a condition of full employment, to assume taht
> the
> means of production are utillitzed to the fullest and that they must be
> regarded as a
> scarce resource to be husbanded and allocated with the greatest of care.
> 
> This is the opposite of the truth. The world today has a huge overcapacity of
> productive resources. For America, the proobme is not to husband and consume
> such
> resources but to USE them. OUr goal is full employment; we have no other.
> 
> ================================================

The Soviet Union worked on the same principle. An artificially high
standard of living (everybody had virtually free housing and utlities,
enough for three meals a day, as well as free medical, dental, and
child care, in addition to heavily subsidized public transportation,
books, newspapers, magazines, and cultural events). This was achieved
by isolating the economy, conducting minimal foreign trade on a
strictly bilateral basis ("You send us so and so many million liters of
Pepsi-Cola, we send you so and so many million liters of Stolichnaya
vodka"), closing the borders to foreign-made and more competitive
products, trying to be as self-sufficient in everything as possible,
providing economically unjustified employment by dividing jobs that
could be done efficiently by one worker into smaller jobs that could be
done less efficiently by several workers, and preventing the import of
more competitive foreign-made products by making the currency
non-convertible and forcing the people to buy over-priced, increasingly 
uncompetitive locally made products, automobiles being the best-known
example. A large number of Soviets were employed guarding the country's
vast borders to keep foreign goods out and to keep Soviet citizens in,
adding vastly to the overhead of keeping the economy running.

This policy did untold economic damage, damage that Russia and the
other post-Soviet states have not been able to rectify, despite ten
years of economic freedom and billions in foreign aid. You do not seem
to understand that what you are recommending is a variant of the Soviet
system - that's the "socialist" part. The Soviet system worked fairly
well - and might have worked even better if the USSR had not allowed
itself to get bogged down in expensive space races, arms races, and
influence races - as long as the world economy was production oriented.
As you say yourself, there is a huge overcapacity of productive
resources, and, as I emphasize, technologies that were the property of
only the most advanced countries a generation ago have now been
mastered by all but the least developed third world countries. The
economically most successful countries nowadays are the ones that have
oriented their primary production towards high value-added specialized
sectors, and then filled out the economy with service jobs, some of
which are, as you point out, dull and low paying (but somebody has to
swab the floors, clean the toilets, flip the burgers, and collect the
tickets), but many of which demand special skills and are thus better
paid - as long as those skills remain the monopoly of a small group
(witness the drop in salary for C++ programmers once it became clear
that twelve year-olds in Guatamala, India, and Ghana could learn it
quickly and expertly). 

In our Scandinavian brand of socialism we have dealt with the paradox
of high corporate profits and an increasing number of low-paying
service jobs that you mention by using a draconic income redistribution
scheme. Millionaires are taxed to the hilt, while people in low-paying
jobs pay low taxes and are the beneficiaries of numerous social
services. Thus there are very few people here who are fabulously rich -
and they are in the 67% tax bracket - while there are virtually no
people unable to afford a relatively comfortable middle-class
lifestyle. This has guaranteed years of high living standards in all
five scandinavian countries, while exposing the market to healthy
foreign competition and encouraging the import of goods and services
that cannot be produced here efficiently in exchange for those that can
be.

Regards,
Eugene Holman





> 
> >
> >
> > The amount of money and energy that will be needed to keep the market
> > closed to imports will add further to the price of the expensive and
> > already non-competitive domestic products. The only real economic
> > weapon available as a defence against the price differential is
> > currency devaluation which, of course, would bring the price of the
> > domestic product closer to that of the competition, while also lowering
> > domestic living standards across the line.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> OUr goal is maximum people gainfully employed; not minimum price for VCRs,
> etc. We
> are far more concerned with tomorrow's America than we are with today's bargain.
> 
> =================================================
> 
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:50 EST 2001
Article: 873617 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:14:47 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <130320012114478362%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net> <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>  <130320010847251230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AADD2CD.3E6589DF@verizon.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984510883 11408 128.214.199.213 (13 Mar 2001 19:14:43 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 19:14:43 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521906 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507157 alt.revisionism:873617

In article , Patrick Keenan
 wrote:



> > =======================================================
> >
> Well, well.   Let me ask you something, since you seem to be thinking of
> this for what is now the United States.
> 
> You're proposing a form of government that will intrude in most aspects of
> virtually every citizen's life.   A very, very, big and very expensive form
> of government, where individual rights and freedoms are limited.
> 
> I've heard many U.S. citizens express the view that they own guns to protect
> themselves.   To protect themselves, not just from individuals who would do
> them harm or rob them, but from *governments* that intrude on their rights.
> 
> I've probably heard more express that 2nd amendment view than I've ever
> heard express National Socialist views.    IOW, I think you're outnumbered
> and outgunned.
> 
> As you might have noticed, there are rather a lot of guns in the US.   To
> achieve what you are proposing, you're going to have to either take all the
> guns, or kill everyone who has one, before they kill you.
> 
> I'm very curious as how you're going to do that.
> 

Richard Phillips seems to think that a small, determined, and
leaderless coterie of dedicated white male, anti-female, anti-minority,
anti-Jewish "National Socialists" can pull off an overnight "palace
revolution" with surgical precision à la _Turner Diaries_. He thinks
that when push comes to shove, the government and armed forces will
split and defend what they perceive to be their racial interests, with
whites, specifically white men, suddenly becoming so united that they
will inevitably previal, rather than continue to be loyal to the
country they have traditionally served. He also thinks that people will
be eager to support a government that will voodoo the economy so that
that it can pay $25/h wages to people doing jobs worth $5/h so that
they can produce and buy domestic products at $25 a shot which cost $5
on the world market.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:50 EST 2001
Article: 873633 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.algonet.se!news000.worldonline.se!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips' wallet
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:01:44 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <130320012201447792%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9BD2BC.8D2BD05B@verizon.net>   <3A9E6AEC.41951CCC@verizon.net> <010320011826310339%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9EA37B.71BB0610@verizon.net> <010320012307268403%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9EEA85.8BFFBB8E@verizon.net> <020320011634523357%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FD42D.7B100FA8@verizon.net> <3A9FE579.47A0208A@verizon.net>  <3AABE87B.DEFDF120@verizon.net> <98jh2v$2phs$1@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> <3AAD9DA3.C4A26A64@verizon.net> <98lg5e$475$1@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> <3AAE4C9C.BB6E16A9@verizon.net> <3AAE549D.D7ADFCAC@home.com> <3AAE6687.C1126DDB@verizon.net> <3AAE763E.A2865767@home.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984513699 14244 128.214.199.213 (13 Mar 2001 20:01:39 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 20:01:39 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521914 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507167 alt.revisionism:873633

In article <3AAE763E.A2865767@home.com>, steve wolk 
wrote:

> "Richard G. Phillips" wrote:


> 
> Please post evidence that Mr. Holman saw it that way.  And why did you
> reiterate your 'humorous fantasy' so many times?  And why did you wait
> so long to tell us it was just a 'humorous fantasy'?  No, Little
> Richard, best keep that bridge handy for some other sucker who is dumb
> enough to believe your totally contrived explanation.
> 

Correct. I've often been more sympathetic to Richard than many in this
group (I like his archaic and bombastic style), but I disassociate
myself with this claim. I have never commented on his debts or lack
thereof because they have not been germane to the topics we have been
discussing. Richard Phillips does have a sense of humor, one that I am
able to appreciate, but I would not regard accounts of bankruptcy and
escapes ion Greek tramp steamers with bilked creditors waving their
fists in the shadow of the Statue of Libery as examples of such.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Tue Mar 13 20:04:51 EST 2001
Article: 873634 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:54:38 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 174
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <130320012154382171%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net> <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>  <130320010847251230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AADD2CD.3E6589DF@verizon.net> <130320011226312163%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AAE27B5.53367A24@verizon.net> <130320011940368511%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AAE6EE3.4EADB955@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984513274 13904 128.214.199.213 (13 Mar 2001 19:54:34 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 19:54:34 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521915 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507168 alt.revisionism:873634

In article <3AAE6EE3.4EADB955@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Soviet living standard was not kept artificially high; it was kept
> artifically low
> to provide sufficient capital for a very rapid industrial expansion. Waht do
> you
> suppose those Five-year plans were all about.
> Ordinary people were permitted enough to maintain life but that was about it.
> 
> ======================================================

I visted the USSR more than 20 times between 1966 and 1991, and lived
there, in Moscow, for a month during 1983. This was no longer wartime,
but rather a period of restructuring, reform, rethinking, and if not
"goulash communism" at least "borscht communism". The USSR of the late
Brezhnev years, Chernenko, and Gorbachev was not a country of low
living standards, this applies particularly to the USSR of Brezhnev
prior to the idiotic invasion of Afghanistan. Living standards were not
high, but neither were they low. One serious problem was that there was
too much money chasing too few goods. The Soviet authorities were
paying relatively high wages (about $150 - $200/month at official
exchange rates), but they had enough sense to realize the economic
folly of adding minimal value to their raw materials by producing
washing machines that sold for 100 rubles but would be worth a third as
much of foreign-produced washing machines were allowed access to the
Soviet market. There was a surplus of funny money that could not be
used outside the USSR and a deficit of goods to spend it on.


> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> You tell me that Stalinist policies inflicted "-severe damage" on th Russian
> economy.
> Apparently it is of little account with you that those same policies enabled
> Russia to
> inflict a crushing defeat on an extremely powerful invading army that was, at
> least
> qualitatively, the best in the world. And apparently it is of little accouont
> with you
> that Russian industry continued to produce a plenitude of war materiel even
> though, at
> one time, half of Russia's population was in German-controlled territory.
> 

I'm not talking about Stalinist policies, but rather about the policies
of the 1970s and 80s when the USSR could make a half-serious claim to
be a major player in the world economy.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> But you would have had them open their borders to foreign (which is say,
> mostly
> German) capital,  goods, and expertise. And what would have been the result?
> I'll tell
> you. Her industries would have been largely German-owned, production would
> have been
> "rationalized" to slim down the work force to include only the most young and
> energetic (leaving the remainder as objects of official charity), important
> technical
> and managerial skills would have remained in foreign hands. Industries would
> have been
> located with a view of minimizing transportation costs, not to keeping them
> out of the
> hands of an invading army.  OK. NOW tell me how well Russia would have stood
> up to a
> German invasion.

That's what's happening now. Germany is by far the biggest investor in
Russia. The Japanese would like a fair whack at it, but they have
hard-headedly refused to play ball until Russians start negotiations
concerning the return of four humiliatingly occupied islets in the
Kurile chain.


> ============================================
> Phillips
>
> You criticise Stalinist policies becasue, under them, Russia never achieved
> anything
> approximating to a Western standard of life. Well, I msut ask: was such a
> thing ever
> in reach for Russia. Every country has a certain culture, a certain history,
> a certain
> national character, a certain climate; every country has all of thsoe things
> and no
> policy choices will ever allow an escape from them.
> 
> --The Russian character has been shaped by centuries of serfdom. The Russian
> is, by
> nature, slothful and perverse. He viewed his Communist masters in pretty much
> the same
> light as his serf ancestors had viewed their feudal lords: as enemies to be
> outwitted.
> The Protestant work ethic never took hold there.
> 
> --Many have remarked that the severe climate of that country places great
> demands on
> human energy merely to stay warm.
> 
> You imply they should have opened their borders to foreign capital  and
> goods.  I have
> stated above exactly wht I think would have been the result of such
> foolishness.
> 
> =============================

You have evidently never been to modern glitzy, brash, vulgar Moscow, a
swinging city that makes Giuliani-governed New York City look like a
one-horse town. The Russians have demonstarted themselves to be a
people capable of doing all kinds of things, everything from mounting a
credible space progream (with some crucial help from captured Nazi
scientists and scientists in non-Russian republics), to producing
world-class literature (Pushkin, Dostoyevski, Tolstoy) and music
(Tchaikovski, Moussorgsky, Borodin, Glinka, Glazunov; Prokofiev,
Shostokovich; Ashkenazi, Richter, Mullova).


> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> NOt true.  Japan did not become a huge success by specializing what it could
> do best,
> a policy whih we urged on them. It kept all production at home and learned
> how to be
> best at EVERYTHING.
> 
> ==============================================

What you claim is true for the japan of the 1950s and early 60s that
was still recovering from defeat. By the late 1960s the Japanese had
figured out what they could do best and mist efficiently, and what they
would prefer to buy from others. By the 1970s those Sony and Hitachi
products were "Made in Japan, Assembled in South Korea", by the 1980s
they didn't even try to maintain the illusion: Made in South Korea,
Malaysia, Indonesia, now China.

Only after making more economically rational decisions concerning what
was best done at home, and what abroad, did Japan rise to become a
super-rich member of the industrial nations club: japanese captains of
industry understood that resource-poor Japan was not using its economic
power and resources wisely if it insisted on importing the raw
materials to Japan and exporting them as value-added products if the
alternative was establishing and managing plants closer to the markets
and/or sources of raw materials. That's why nominally Japanese
automobiles are manufactured in the UK and the US today.


> ==============================
> Phillips
> 
> I'm all for their "soak the rich" policies.
> 
> =======================

I'm for taxing them heftily, but not soaking them. There has to be some
incentive for them to work to amass riches. On the other hand, they
have some obligation to the society that has given them the
prerequisites and opportunities to become rich. This is understood here
in Finland, in the US, with  amore individualistic way of thinking, I
get the impression that fewer people think hat their economic success
is as much a function of their hard work as it is of the society which
provides the frmaework within which they become rich.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:58 EST 2001
Article: 873844 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:51:51 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 393
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <140320010951510211%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AAE518B.9FE5B62E@verizon.net> <20010313173725.11824.00000673@ng-xc1.aol.com> <3AAF12FB.CD3F7F82@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984556306 20191 128.214.199.213 (14 Mar 2001 07:51:46 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 07:51:46 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:873844

In article <3AAF12FB.CD3F7F82@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> When you speak of Japan integrating herself into the world economy, if you are
> taking about exports, the answer: yes, they did that. If you are talking about
> imorts, the answer is no, they most emphatically did not.  Their policies were
> what is known as mercantilism.
> 
> Time after time we sent negotiators over there pleading with them to exchange
> a
> system that was working brilliantly for them  for a system that had already
> proven
> a failure for us.
> 
> Oddly, they demurred. They're funny that way.
> 
> ========================

It's somewhat more complex. Resources-poor Japan was importing and
exporting, but the Japanese were masters at adding value to the raw
materials they were importing from the world and selling back to the
world as top-of-the line industrial products. For a long time they were
artifically protecting their economy so that they could offer lifetime
employment and keep unnecessarily large numbers of people employed in
agriculture. The yen was a seriously undervalued currency
internationally during the generation after the war. Thinking started
to change during the late 1970s: pressure from trading partners as well
as consumer protest against outrageous Japanese food prices opened the
economy to food exports, causing a drastic shake-out in Japanese
agriculture. Considerations of efficiency and profitability resulted in
the simpler industrial jobs being farmed out to lower wage countries.
The overall long-term interests of the country were thus met by
allowing greater exposure of the economy to the world market, while the
desire to preserve certain Japanese customs and traditions showed
itself weaker than the yen to make a profit.

Regards,
Eugene Holman



> 
> >
> > >
> > >So you see, Mr. Fragno Ledgister, the winners are the ones who DON'T play
> > >by
> > >the
> > >rules.
> > >
> >
> > *Sigh* You've no idea how trade works, do you?
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'm quite familiar with how it works in theory. I am also familiar with how it
> works in practice.
> 
> ==============================================
> 
> >
> >
> > >====================================
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(4) If a company or a whole industry wishes to move to Mexico we will
> > >> >say
> > >to
> > >> >them:
> > >> >perfectly OK. MOve to Mexico but know one thing: you will SELL in
> > >> >Mexico,
> > >at
> > >> >least
> > >> >you will not sell it here. We will further take the position that the
> > >> >managers and
> > >> >directors of the emigrating company have forfeited their right to
> > >> >American
> > >> >citizenship. Which will it be: citizen of the world or citizen of
> > >> >America.
> > >> >You
> > >> >can't have it both ways.
> > >>
> > >> Given that the policies you advocate will  produce a depression, which do
> > >you
> > >> think?
> > >
> > >===============================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >"Given that the policies you advocate will  produce a depression..."
> > >
> > >Excuse me, but who "gave" this to us.
> > >
> >
> > You did.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> You're not making sense.
> 
> =======================
> 
> >
> >
> > >=========================
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(5) Our goal will be self-sufficiency in as many things as possible, in
> > >> >energy
> > >> >above all.
> > >>
> > >> And the environment?
> > >
> > >======================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >OUr position will be ttht the environmentalists are, at least for the most
> > >part,
> > >right. National Socialism recognizes that earth's bounty is not unlimited.
> > >OUr goal
> > >will be a decent standard of life, not an indefinitely increasing one which
> > >we know
> > >to be an impossibility.
> >
> > And how will this be achieved, given your advocacy of autarky, without
> > serious
> > environmental damage? If, for example, the  US ceases to import petroleum,
> > where is it going to obtain the petroleum necessary to maintain an
> > industrial
> > economy?
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> In the first place we will spend a lot of money seeking alternative sources.
> IN
> the second place, environmental damage depends on the total amount of
> petroleum
> used, not where it is drilled for.
> 
> ==============================
> 
> >
> >
> > >
> > >===================================
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(6) Almost certainly we will restrict the mobility of capital by means
> > >> >of
> > >> >exchange
> > >> >control, though this will need careful study.
> > >>
> > >> Undoubtedly. Of course, as capital slowly bleeds away you'll be able to
> > >produce
> > >> more?
> > >
> > >============================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >Capital comes from production. The more production, IN THIS COUNTRY, the
> > >more
> > >capital is available.
> > >
> >
> > I suggest you find out what has happened in those countries which have
> > attempted to prevent capital from moving.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> I don't doubt it was tough on speculators.
> 
> ===========================
> 
> >
> >
> > >============================================
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(7) Almost certainly we will do away with the Federal Reserve and the
> > >entire
> > >> >system of debt money. That also needs careful study.
> > >>
> > >> Especially when you see what that'll do to prices.
> > >
> > >============================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >OH, and what will it do?
> > >
> >
> > Currency based on a scarce resource (gold), plus jacked up wages = ?
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Who said anything about basing the currency on gold? I am merely against the
> rotten system whereby, when the US Government wants bucks, it goes to the
> Federal
> Reserve (a private institution, as not many people know)  who create it
> --literally-- out of thin air and make the governmetn PAY INTEREST on it.
> 
> Have you ever in your life heard such nonsense?
> 
> ==============================
> 
> ===========================================================
> 
> >
> >
> > >=======================
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(8) Our posture regarding agribusiness will be one of war. It will be
> > >> >destroyed.
> > >>
> > >> Your policy regarding starvation will be?
> > >
> > >======================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >I do not see the connection.
> > >
> >
> > You're the one who wants to get rid of agribusiness. You're the one who
> > ought
> > to work out the implications of jacking up farmgate prices.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> If you read a bit of economic history (which you exhort me to do) you will
> discover that not only has America never had the slightest problem feeding
> itself
> but that we have always been a food-exporting nation. And we managed this
> quite
> well without agribusiness, thank you.
> 
> So it is quite useless for you to invoke your bogeyman of national starvation.
> 
> =========================================================
> 
> ===============================================
> 
> >
> >
> > >=====================
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(9) American industries which wish to sell abroad are permitted to do so
> > >but
> > >> >will
> > >> >not receive the slightest encouragement. Your market is here.
> > >>
> > >> I'm certain that farmers will like this not at all.
> > >
> > >====================================
> > >PHillips
> > >
> > >The reason why American farmers have become dependent on foreign mrkets is
> > >becasue
> > >of the impossible competition from agribusiness who now have compelte
> > >control
> > >over
> > >both their inputs and their outputs.
> >
> > In other words, agribusiness has completely seized the domestic market?
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Very largely, yes.
> 
> ===============
> 
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Moreover, given that the existing system has been destroying family farms
> > >at
> > >an
> > >alarming rate, you are hardly in a posiiton to pose as the friend of family
> > >farming.
> > >
> >
> > How am I posing as the 'friend of family farming', I'm pointing out that
> > farmers produce both for the export and the domestic market. In any case,
> > I'd
> > guess that I've far more knowledge of family farming than you do.
> >
> > >===================================
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> I am well aware that currently American farmers depend very much on exports.
> But I
> claim it is the impossible competition with agribusiness that forces this
> dependence on them.
> 
> ===================================
> 
> >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(10) All genetic patents will be declared invalid and no new
> > >> >applications
> > >of
> > >> >that
> > >> >sort will be accepted. The creation of Life is a prerogative of God. He
> > >does
> > >> >not
> > >> >like to see it usurped.
> > >>
> > >> Who's proposing this, the Europeans or the Japanese?
> > >
> > >=======================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >Question not clear.  Who is proposing WHAT?      Genetic engineering or its
> > >abolition.
> > >
> >
> > Its abolition in the US.
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> National Socialism will not merely propose its abolition; it will DO it.
> 
> ======================================
> 
> >
> >
> > >=========================
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >(11) It will be utterly useless for you to speak to us of efficiency, of
> > >> >comparative advantage, of cost effectiveness or to make any other silly
> > >> >noises.
> > >> >YOu will not be heard.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Thanks to the Gestapo.
> > >
> > >====================================
> > >Phillips
> > >
> > >OUr course is set straight. Protests will be allowed. It's just that they
> > >will not
> > >be listened to. We've heard it all before.
> > >
> > >
> > Ah, the people must do as they're told. How civilised.
> > Fragano Ledgister
> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> If you so wish, you will be allowed to constitute yourself as the Independent
> Republic of Fragano Ledgister and import to your heart's delight --IF you can get
> the stuff past our hawk-eyed customs, which I promise you will never happen..
> 
> ================================================================
> 
> >
> > (Fledgist@aol.com)
> > I had no nation now but the imagination.
> > (Derek Walcott)


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:58 EST 2001
Article: 873860 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Supersedes: <120320011621522080%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:18:25 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 119
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <120320011718256136%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AAB08FE.235C5702@verizon.net>  <3AAC5D61.AEB419F5@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984410302 6919 128.214.199.213 (12 Mar 2001 15:18:22 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:18:22 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:521995 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507257 alt.revisionism:873860

In article <3AAC5D61.AEB419F5@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Orac wrote:
> 

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I would say that the ball is in your court to prove that the ordinary Aryan
> German WAS in constant fear of the Gestapo. Burden of proof on the
> affirmative: remember?
> 
> ===================================================


Many ordinary Aryan Germans were in constant fear of the Nazi
government.

Non-communist political activists of a leftist persuasion such as Willy
Brandt and Herbert Wehner were forced into exile, outspoken clergyman
with strong Christian principles such as Martin Niemöller and Dietrich
Bonhoeffer were arrested, put in concentration camps, and, as was
Bonhoeffer, often executed there. People with non-confomist religious
views, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and activist pacifists were
terrorized, arrested, and killed as warning examples. Tens of thousands
of people with what were considered to be racial defects could expect
to be sterilized, often without their knowledge or consent. Worst of
all, the relatives of people with incurable diseases, mental illness,
or physical deformities knew that at any moment they could expect a
letter telling how their loved one had died at a facilitiy such as
Grafeneck or Hadamar. By the time Archbishop von Galen spoke out about
euthanasia during the summer of 1941, more than a hundred thousand
ordinary Germans had been informed of the untimely death of a loved
one, a person who had actually been gassed, starved, or administered a
lethal injection by a euthanasia specialist, and hundreds of thousands
more were aware that they could expect such a letter at any time.

Many ordinary Aryan Germans were in constant fear of the Nazi
government. As the virulence of Nazism spread beyond Germany's borders
many people who had been German citizens, whether Aryans or non-Aryans,
but had feared or despised Nazism enough to have the good sense to take
up residence in the Netherlands, France, Austria, or some country
further afield in Europe such as Greece or Latvia, found themselves
caught up in its web. There are, for example, cases of Germans married
to Jews who wanted to save themselves the humiliation that the
Nuremberg Laws would have meant for their marriage by moving abroad,
only to be arrested, tried, and severly punished for racial violations
once the Nazis invaded their new homeland and sought them out. German
blood was deemed by the Nazi government to be the property of the
German "Volk", not of the individual, and laws were passed depriving
the individual of the right to determine who could or could not be his
or her spouse or lover.

You might not know this well-known poem:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out ‹ because I was not a Jew. 

Then they came for the communists 
and I did not speak out ‹ because I was not a communist. 

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out ‹ because I was not a trade unionist. 

Then they came for me ‹
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me. 

- attributed to anti-Hitler activist Martin Niemöller

***********************************************
Source: http://serendipity.nofadz.com/cda/niemoll.html

According to Harry W. Mazal, the exact text of what Martin Niemöller
said, and which appears in the Congressional Record, 14, October 1968,
page 31636, is: 


When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not
concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a
Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked
the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and
I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church
‹ and there was nobody left to be concerned. 
***********************************************
On the prisoners at Dachau, from their own website.

Source:
http://www.cc-memorial-site-dachau.org/gedenkstaette/english/frame/idx_g
ese.htm

The Prisoners

The first prisoners were political opponents of the regime: communists,
social democrats, members of the trade unions and a few members of the
conservative and the liberal parties. Also, the first Jewish prisoners
were imprisoned in Dachau because of their political beliefs. In the
following years new groups of prisoners were deported to Dachau: Jews,
Homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovahs' Witnesses, Clergymen and others. After
the November pogroms in 1938, the so-called "Crystal Night," more than
10,000 Jews were brought to Dachau.

>From 1938 on, the prisoners' society in the concentration camp in
Dachau reflected the National Socialist aggression. After the annexion
of Austria in the spring of 1938, Austrian prisoners were brought to
Dachau and subsequently, in the same year, prisoners from the
"Sudeten"-area. In March 1939 Czech prisoners were brought to Dachau,
and after the beginning of the war prisoners from Poland, Norway,
Belgium, the Netherlands, France and so on.

Finally, the German prisoners were a minority; the Polish prisoners
were the largest national group, followed by the prisoners from the
Soviet Union. Altogether, there were more than 200,000 prisoners from
more than 30 countries imprisoned in Dachau.

*********************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:58 EST 2001
Article: 873890 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:31:00 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <140320011531004479%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>  <3AAC5AF1.FC164EA5@verizon.net>  <3AAD239E.549277D6@verizon.net>  <3AAD64BC.83F6C37@verizon.net>  <3AAF18E9.95E2FD22@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984576660 8955 128.214.199.213 (14 Mar 2001 13:31:00 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 13:31:00 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:873890

In article <3AAF18E9.95E2FD22@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is either the case that Monica did or that she did not give Clinton one or
> more
> blow jobs. ON the basis of what you know, which  do you consider the more
> probable?
> 
> --If you answer that you believe she did not, I will supply what I can.
> --If you answer that you believe she did, then the issue is settled.
> 
> ============================================

Richard, this is not a question of belief, but rather one of drawing
conclusions "beyond reasonable doubt" on the basis of evidence
available.

I originally brought up the subject of Bill and Monica because there
exists, both qualitatively and quantitatively, far less evidence for
their having had a sexual encounter in the Oval Office or anywhere
else, despite the existence of the stained dress, than there does for
the Nazis having had a systematic plan to exterminate the Jews of
Europe, using, among other methodologies, CO and HCN gas in structures
and facilities specially designed and constructed for the purpose of
homicidal gassing.

Of course if you regard these issues as matters of belief, then there
is no argument. If, on the other hand, you regard them as issues the
factuality of which can be demonstrated or refuted, then you are
glaringly inconsistent and illogical in your interpretation of data.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:58 EST 2001
Article: 873895 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: "Separation: Good for Government, Good for Religion"  -- ADL
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:53:23 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <140320011553235282%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:   <3AAE7707.3AF103FA@home.com>  <98mid1$jv7$1@bob.news.rcn.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984578004 9632 128.214.199.213 (14 Mar 2001 13:53:24 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 13:53:24 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:873895 alt.politics.white-power:522005 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507268 alt.flame.niggers:433871

In article , Flame of truth
 wrote:



> 
> And when he prays they send him to the principals office for doing it
> on school grounds.
> 

Then he ought to change his style. He'll get sent to the principal's
office if his hormones are raging and he jacks off in class, too. That
doesn't mean that he cannot take care of such problems more discretely
in the man's room.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:59 EST 2001
Article: 873991 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:57:20 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 76
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <140320012157201236%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AABC746.AACD0E50@verizon.net>    <3AAC5F34.127150A@verizon.net> <3AAEDBB3.8050102@sympatico.ca>  <3AAFB6D5.B971EEA3@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984599841 29826 128.214.199.213 (14 Mar 2001 19:57:21 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 19:57:21 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:873991

In article <3AAFB6D5.B971EEA3@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) The high figure for the amount of that emigration has been put at around
> 300K,
> about one-half of one percent of the population; hardly a mass exodus, as I'm
> sure
> you will agree.

That was the number cited for German citizens and subjects that managed
to emigrate to the USA. Many more emigrated to neighboring countries,
many of which eventually fell to the Nazis. Those Aryan Germans who
emigrated to countries that eventually fell to the Nazi because they
were offended by the Nuremberg Laws or were in a mixed marriage that
they did not want the state to annul often wound up being charged with,
and convicted of, violating those laws.


> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> (2) The fact that these people were ALLOWED to leave rather suggests that Nazi
> Germany may not have been the chamber of horrors it is reputed to have beern.
> 
> ========================================

Towards the end of the 1930s, the Nazis put increasingly heavy
impositions on Jews desiring to emigrate. Already deprived of their
livelihood or forced to sell their businesses to Aryans at a fraction
of their market value, prospective Jewish emigrants from Nazi Germany
were forced to pay extorionate prices for exit visas and forfeit
virtually all of their property and assets to the state in order to
leave the Reich. Adolf Eichmann fattened the Reich's coffers with the
money and assests he was able to extort from Jews, many of whom were
originally German citizens who had sought refuge Czechoslovakia before
the Nazis invaded and partitioned that country, seeking to leave the
Reich at the Office of Jewish Emigration which he headed starting July
21, 1939. 

On Oct. 23, 1941 all Jewish emigration from the Reich was forbidden. By
this time the systematic extermination of Jews in areas conquered by
the Nazis in Eastern Europe had been underway for several months, and
extermination centers were either under construction or in the final
phases of being designed. Thus, Chelmno extermination center opened for
business on Dec. 8, 1941, mass killings of Jews using Zyklon-B began at
Auschwitz-Birkenau in January, 1942, and Belzec extermination center
opened its doors in March, 1942. Majdanek, which had been operating
since July 1941 primarily as a facility for detaining and exterminating
members of the Polish middle and upper classes, began to receive Jews
for extermination in April, 1942. Indicative of a change in policy is
also the fact that 1,000 Berlin Jews were sent to Riga, arriving at the
Rumbula train station early in the morning of November 30, 1941 just in
time to be the first victims of a massacre which resulted in the
systematic mass shooting of approximately 24,000 inhabitants of the
Riga ghetto inaddition to these 1,000 Berlin Jews (see
http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/ezergailis.htm for details).

The Wannsee Conference, at which Nazi leaders met to coordinate the
Final Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe, convened on January 20,
1942. Its notorious protocol
(http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-wannsee.htm) noted
that the Final Solution would affect the more than 11,000,000 racial
Jews still living in Europe as of that date, and that it would involve
both resettlement and a regime of forced labor that would result in the
"elimination by natural causes" of a large portion of the Jews
involved, with the survivors to be dealt with using "appropriate
measures" to ensure that a new generation of Jews would not arise to
avenge the deaths of their ancestors.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:59 EST 2001
Article: 874005 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:48:38 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <140320012248386325%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3A9F509C.7EE09353@verizon.net> <020320011414005074%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FB85D.7B1207F8@verizon.net> <020320011920129956%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3A9FEB92.E9E8A6DD@verizon.net> <020320012150525841%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA00280.A0D549B0@verizon.net>  <3AAAD218.840C0533@verizon.net>  <3AABA2EE.F44B9EC9@verizon.net>  <3AACEB98.606AF388@verizon.net> <120320011845280219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>  <130320010847251230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AADD2CD.3E6589DF@verizon.net>  <130320012114478362%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AAF1A59.B0173BDC@verizon.net>  <3AAFB916.8C843638@verizon.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984602920 2571 128.214.199.213 (14 Mar 2001 20:48:40 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 20:48:40 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.politics.white-power:522018 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507288 alt.revisionism:874005

In article <3AAFB916.8C843638@verizon.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is only minorities and liberals who demand that Americans give up their guns.

Rot! There is enough majority-on-minority violence in the US that many
members of minorities are quite attached to their guns.

My general impression - admittedly based on my perception of events
taking place several thousand miles away from where I am - is that the
largest group opposed to guns in the USA is American Womenhood, surely
no minority.

> =================================
> Phillips

> A national socialist government woud never demand such a thing.
> 
> ===========================
>

If the agenda of a national socialist government is anything like what
you say it will be, the citizenry will certainly want to retain the
possibility of interacting with it using means more effective than
peashooters if it is forced to buy $5,000 washing machines and $2,500
VCRs, and eat $25/lb. beef with $5/lb. potatoes when it knows that
similar products are available for a fraction of the cost in Mexico or
Canada.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Mar 15 23:24:59 EST 2001
Article: 874202 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Fuehrer Euthanasia Authorization
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:17:57 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <150320011217574178%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <8g+vOg9orqTq+6NDilivDazpfks=@4ax.com> <3AB08489.6106FB0D@softhome.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984651481 12265 128.214.199.213 (15 Mar 2001 10:18:01 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Mar 2001 10:18:01 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874202 alt.politics.white-power:522072 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507358 alt.flame.niggers:434106

In article <3AB08489.6106FB0D@softhome.net>, Ron Williams
 wrote:

> Why don't you produce the Furhrer "Holocaust" authorization. I'll tell you
> why...because it never existed. Prove me wrong if you can. Of course you
> can't, because no matter how much propaganda you spread, you can never
> defeat the truth!

Hitler's ruling style involved oral orders given to his closest
associates with no written records:


  It has been widely denied in Germany since the war that any but a
handful of Germans at the head of the S.S. knew of the scope or
savagery of these measures against the Jews. One man certainly knew.
For one man they were the logical realization of views which he had
held since his twenties, the necesary preliminary to the plans he had
formed for the resettlement of Europe on solid racial foundations. That
man was Adolf Hitler.
  Himmler organized the extermination of the Jews, but the man in whose
mind so grotesque a plan had been conceived was Hitler. Without
Hitler's authority, Himmler, a man solely of subordinate virtues, would
never have dared to act on his own. This was the subject of those
secret talks 'unter vier Augen' between the Führer and the Reichsführer
S.S. at which no one else (save occasionally Bormann) was allowed to be
present and of which no records survive. There are few more ghastly
pages in history than this attempt to eliminate a whole race, the
consequence of the 'discovery' made by a young down-and-out in a Vienna
slum in the 1900s that the Jews were the authors of everything that he
most hated in the world.
  At a meeting of the entire party leadership at Berlin in May 1943,
Goebbels records, Hitler declared that 'the anti-Semitism which
formerly animated the Party must again become the focal point of our
spiritual struggle.'
  At the same time he added: 'All the rubbish of small States still
existing in Europe must be liquidated as fast as possible. The aim of
our struggle must be to create a unified Europe: the Germans alone can
really organize Europe.'[1]

[1] _The Goebbels Diaries_, 1942-1943. London. 1949. p. 279.


A. Bullock. _Hitler: a study in tyranny_. London. 1962. pg. 702 ff.

*****************************************************************

You cannot find a written authorization to build a network of
concentration camps all across Europe and become, essentially, Europe's
largest prisonmaster, nor can you find one to invade the USSR, Denmark,
Norway, France, Greece, Luxembourg, Hungary, Belgium, or France.  

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:29:39 EST 2001
Article: 260002 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Deniers - where is the evidence?
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:20:11 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 793
Message-ID: <170320011020116065%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com> <090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <1nxs6.4$Jp4.195905@news1.i1.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984817213 545 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 08:20:13 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 08:20:13 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874774 soc.culture.usa:609268 soc.culture.canada:260002

In article <1nxs6.4$Jp4.195905@news1.i1.net>, Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > In article <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com>, Dakota Boy
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
> > include:
> > 1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
> > 2. The traces of human remains found during the geological exaination
> > of the Auschwitz camp.
> > 3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventialtion
> > systems of the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek.
> 
>   Here is part of the Leuchter Report:

The Leuchter Report has been thoroughly debunked as pseudo-scientific
hogwash produced by an incompetent fool.

Here is some information about the methodological errors in Leuchter's
pseudo-scientific hogwash:

Methodological error 1:
>      "Thirty-one samples 

Leuchter took core samples, when he should have taken scraping samples.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 2:
> were selectively removed from the alleged gas
> chambers at Kremas I, II, III, IV and V.

Krema I is a partial restoration and has undegone extensive
modification since it served as a gas chamber. Kremas II and III have
been exposed to the elements for the past 56 years, including extended
times partially submerged in water. Kremas IV and V exist only as
building foundations. Leuchter did not contact the Auschwitz Museum
officials and thus did not have access to the blueprints showing
precisely where the gas chambers, relatively small, were located in
these relatively large structures. His use of the word "selectively" is
thus a cover word for "from places that I was able to gain access to",
since the sample collection (in this case vandalism) was done illegally
and without the proper architectural and historical documents.

******************************************************************

Methodological error 3:
> A control sample was taken from delousing facility #1 at Birkenau.

His control sample is biased. If his objective was to detect and
measure cyanide compounds, his control sample should have been as free
as possible from such compounds and have been taken from a place that,
as far as is known, was never exposed to cyanide.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 4:
> The control sample was removed from a
> delousing chamber in a location where cyanide was known to have been used
> and was apparently present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the control
> sample #32  showed a cyanide content of 1050 mg/kg, a very heavy
> concentration.

Leuchter, who revealed at the Zündel trial that he has no understanding
of the different manners in which cyanide affects insects as opposed to
humans, did not understand that it takes higher concentrations of HCN
(approx. 16,000 ppm vs. 300 ppm) maintained over a much longer period
of time (20 hours vs. 15 minutes) to kill vermin than it does to kill
people (for details cf.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#iii).
******************************************************************

Methodological error 5:
> The conditions at areas from which these samples were taken
> are identical with those of the control sample, cold, dark, and wet.

The delousing chamber had not been exposed to the elements since 1944,
while Kremas II through V had been, this meaning that the conditions
for the decomposiiton of possible cyanide compounds were radically
different for the control sample as opposed to those taken from the gas
chamber sites.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 6:
> Only
> Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect  that these locations had sunlight
> (the buildings have been torn down) and sunlight may hasten the destruction
> of uncomplexed cyanide. 

Kremas II, III, IV, and V, each in their own way, had been exposed to
the elements. The cindiitons in them were thus radically diferent from
those of either the delousing chambers or Krema I.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 7:

> The cyanide combines with the iron in the mortar and
> brick and becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide or prussian blue pigmentation, a very
> stable iron-cyanide complex.

Stable, but soluble in connection with continued contact with water.
The ruins of Kremas II and III, as well as the foundations of Kremas IV
and V have all been in contact with water, sometimes being submerged
weeks at a time, since 1944. The delousing chamber and Krema I have not
been subjected to water.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 8:

>      "The locations from which the analyzed samples were removed are set out
> in Table III.
>      "It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that the
> few that were positive were very close to the detection level (1mg/kg); 6.7
> mg/kg at Krema III; 7.9 mg/kg at Krerma I. 

Leuchter, not understanding that the concentrations of HCN needed to
kill people need be no higher than 300 ppm does not understand that,
his methodological errors notwithstanding, these figures are consistent
with the structures in question having been used as homicidal gas
chambers.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 9:

> The absense of any consequential
> readings at any of the tested locations as compared to the control sample
> reading 1050 mg/kg supports the evidence that these facilities were not
> execution gas chambers. The small quantities detected would indicate that at
> some point these buildings were deloused with Zyklon B - as were all the
> buildings at all these facilities"

One would expect the delousing chamber to have a much higher reading
than the former gas chamber on the basis of both the concentration and
timeframe needed to kill vermin as opposed to insects, as well as on
the basis of the different histories of the structures in question
since 1944. The claim about the traces of Zyklon B at the Kremas
resulting from all the buildings having been deloused at one time with
Zyklon B is also in contradiction with the conclusion that many of the
readings were negative. If all the buildings had been deloused, we
would expect more consistent minimal readings. If, on the other hand,
portions of Kremas II and III had been used as gas chambers, while
others had not, we would expect readings more in accordance with what
Leuchter found.

******************************************************************

Here is a section from Richard J. Green's critique of the Leuchter
report (source:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#v) showing that
it is pseudo-scientific hogwash:


V. A Critique of the Forensic Reports 

This section will examine the validity of claims made by the deniers as
well as further elucidating the significance of the findings of the
IFRC researchers. Some of the claims made in the reports of the deniers
are not directly relevant to the chemistry of Auschwitz- Birkenau.
Nevertheless, a few of these arguments are so pervasive and so easily
exposed as specious that they merit a brief discussion. The claims that
do involve the chemistry of Auschwitz-Birkenau are divided into two
categories: 1) claims of the impossibility of gassing, 2) claims that
chemical analyses of forensic samples prove that no gassings could have
taken place. For the most part, I will not address claims involving
other camps at this time; I will also not address claims concerning the
cremation furnaces and the cremation in ditches. These issues deserve a
more complete treatment on their own. 

The deniers like to play the numbers game. They state that it is
impossible for 6 million people to have been killed in gas chambers at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. They are quite right: the death toll at Auschwitz
is closer to 1 million. The others murdered in the Final Solution were
killed in other camps, ghettos, as a result of the Einsatzgruppen
mobile killing squads, by death marches and other means. 59 

Nevertheless, Leuchter underestimates the capacity of
Auschwitz-Birkenau. Leuchter's assumptions about the capacity for
murder of the gas chambers assume that the people could occupy the gas
chambers at a density of maximum 1 person per 9 square feet (!!) and
that it would take a week (!!) to ventilate the gas chambers before
they could be used for another mass execution. These assumptions are
absurd. 60 

Deniers also like to take credit for debunking the incorrect claims of
the Soviets that 4 million were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Unfortunately for them, it was the respectable historians who provided
the evidence for more accurate numbers. They also make the false claim
that this change in the death toll of Auschwitz-Birkenau should
drastically reduce the death toll of the final solution. This argument
has been thoroughly discredited elsewhere. 61 

Another claim is to echo Faurisson's notorious statement, "No vents, no
holocaust." Air photos are supposed to show that vents in Krema II that
were used, according to eyewitness testimony, to introduce Zyklon B in
the gas chamber, were forged by the CIA or other unspecified
conspirators. Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic Magazine, writes: 

Thanks to Dr. Nevin Bryant, supervisor of cartographic applications and
image processing applications at Caltech/NASA's Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in Pasadena, California, I was able to get the CIA
photographs properly analyzed by people who know what they are looking
at from the air. Nevin and I analyzed the photographs using digital
enhancement techniques not available to the CIA in 1979. We were able
to prove that the photographs had not been tampered with, and we indeed
found evidence of extermination activity. 62 


Shermer reproduces a 1944 aerial photo of Krema II (figure 23) and a
1942 picture taken from the ground (figure 24). 


The aerial photograph in figure 23 shows the distinctive features of
Krema II. Note the long shadow from the crematorium chimney and, on the
roof of the adjacent gas chamber at right angles to the crematorium
building, note the four staggered shadows. [Holocaust denier, John C.]
Ball claims these shadows were drawn in, but four small structures that
match the shadows are visible on the roof of the gas chamber in figure
24, a picture taken by an SS photographer of the back of Krema II... 63



John Ball, at least, seems to be aware that his claims do not stand up.
He offered on his web page a $100,000 for anyone who could get three
air photo experts to disagree with the accuracy of his claims. When
John Morris inquired about accepting Ball's offer, Ball did not respond
even though Morris made every effort to communicate his interest.
Details are available on the Nizkor website. 64 

The primary claims made by the deniers concerning the supposed
impossibility of gassing with Zyklon B center on the rate of
evaporation of HCN from Zyklon B. It evaporates too slowly, they claim,
so that either it will not kill as fast as is claimed, or alternatively
it will be too dangerous to the operators of the gas chambers. Lüftl
writes: 


Hydrocyanic acid vapors are not released immediately after the cans are
opened. The evaporation of Zyklon B requires as many as 32 hours or as
few as six hours, depending on whether the ambient temperature ranges
>from five to 30 degrees Celsius. The evaporation rate is not exactly
proportional to time. 65 


Jamie McCarthy has addressed this claim: 


[Lüftl] ripped those figures from their context and cited them
dishonestly. The "six to 32 hours" figure comes from the Degesch
manual, but it refers only to the total exposure time required for
lice. Since the metabolism of lice, like all cold-blooded creatures, is
much slower at 5 C than at 30 C, the exposure time is necessarily
longer. 66 


In other words, Lüftl is mixing apples and oranges. The times he quotes
have nothing to do with the release time from Zyklon B. They have to do
with the necessary fumigation times to kill lice. In answer to a
criticism of the Leuchter Report that human body heat would be
sufficient to raise the temperature to the "temperature of evaporation"
of HCN Lüftl responds: 


Like so many Holocaust writers, Auerbach is mistaken. An experiment was
carried out by this writer to simulate the heating of a chamber by
human beings... 

The chamber took an hour to heat using an 1.8 Kw electric convection
heater, after which the room was "ventilated" for 30 minutes... 

Even [in a room] with people "tightly packed crushed together," an air
temperature in excess of 30-32 degrees Celsius would not be attained.
In addition, the gassings are supposed to have taken place quickly and
on a quasi- industrial basis. 67 


This simulation would be a comedy of errors were it not in the service
of denying a tragedy of barely imaginable proportions. First of all,
1.8 kW is roughly equivalent to the heat output of 18 people, far fewer
than would have been in the 5.43 square meters of floor space in the
simulation. Secondly, and more importantly, it is not at all necessary
to come near (or over!) the boiling point of HCN for it to evaporate
rapidly. The boiling point of a liquid is the temperature at which its
equilibrium vapor pressure is equal to the pressure of the atmosphere.
Below the boiling point the vapor pressure of a liquid can be quite
large. HCN has an extremely high vapor pressure even at very cold
temperatures. Anyone who doubts this fact should obtain some diethyl
ether, open a small amount, and observe it evaporating. Ether boils at
34.6 Celsius; in other words its boiling point is greater than HCN. 68 

This discussion is worthwhile because it shows how the deniers play on
the public's relative ignorance on such technical details. The
argument, however, is moot because Gerhard Peters, who was the general
director of Degesch, the company that sold Zyklon B has written a book
on the topic, in which he gives the evaporation times of Zyklon B. 69
Ulrich Roessler translates: 


The development of the gas from the Zyklon sets in with great vehemence
immediately following the pouring out of it. The thinner the layer of
the disseminated support material the faster will be the development of
the gas. Depending on the species of the pests to be controlled, and on
the characteristic of the rooms to be gassed, one may choose to reach
the maximum of the gas concentration to arise very quickly or more
slowly by the thickness of the disseminated layer. Usually, the
material will be disseminated in a layer of 1/2 to 1cm thickness, then
the greatest part [der gröste Teil] of the HCN will have developed
already after half an hour at normal temperature. [i.e. 20 degree C].
70 


Roessler comments further: 


Now, der gröste Teil der Blausäure is by no means only 50% - it means
rather nearly all of the HCN. 71 


Even at -10 C Peters states that the evaporation is essentially
complete in 1 hour with an upper bound for complete evaporation of 2
hours. 72 

These facts should not be taken to mean that gassing with Zyklon B was
100% safe. Kremas II and III were equipped with ventilation systems;
the gas chambers in Kremas IV and V were built above ground to allow
natural ventilation. Pressac in the quote near the beginning of this
article states: 


the Sonderkommandos wore gas masks as a precaution. 73 


If the Nazis and their accomplices were smart enough to handle the
hazards of Zyklon B for delousing purposes, it is reasonable to suppose
that they were smart enough to handle those hazards when committing
murder. In Nizkor's Leuchter FAQ, another spurious objection is
answered swiftly and accurately: 


2.09 If the gas chambers were ventilated, the gas would kill people
outside. 

Nonsense; it is all a question of concentration. Once the gas is
released into the atmosphere, its concentration drops and it is no
longer dangerous. Also, HCN dissipates quickly. The execution gas
chambers in US prisons are also ventilated directly into the
atmosphere. Furthermore, if this argument would hold for the
extermination chambers, it would hold for the delousing chambers as
well, and one would have to conclude that no delousing chambers existed
either. 74 


Another claim is refuted merely by reference to the Merck Index. In
order to be explosive HCN requires a concentration of 6% (60,000 ppm).
75 There is simply no reason to add enough Zyklon B to allow such a
concentration to build up. 

In considering the forensic measurements, I will make the not
necessarily warranted assumptions that Rudolf and Leuchter can be
trusted to have handled their samples carefully and honestly. What they
claim to measure is a large discrepancy between the levels of cyanide
in the blue-stained delousing chambers compared to the homicidal gas
chambers that do not have obvious staining in Auschwitz-Birkenau (the
Majdanek chamber is an interesting exception that deserves some comment
below). 

These measurements are essentially meaningless. The information content
is not more than the fact that some of the delousing chambers have
blue-staining and the homicidal chambers do not. 

There are three conceivable explanations for this difference. 


1. The presence of Prussian-blue staining is a necessary consequence of
exposure to HCN and the fact that it is not present in the homicidal
chambers proves they were not used for homicidal gassing. 
2. The Prussian-blue staining is present for reasons having nothing to
do with the exposure to HCN. For example Bailer has suggested it may be
a pigment from paint. 76 

3. The Prussian-blue staining indeed owes its presence to exposure to
HCN, but the conditions under which it formed were not universally
present in all facilities exposed to HCN. The rate of Prussian-blue
formation may be very different under the conditions used in homicidal
chamber versus the conditions in delousing chambers. 
Answer number one is, of course, untenable. We know that homicidal
gassings occurred from historical evidence independently of the
chemistry involved. Nevertheless, I will suspend my disbelief for a
moment. If the lack of Prussian blue is supposed to prove that no
gassing took place, possibilities 2 and 3 must be disproven. If it is
not possible to do so, then the impossibility of gassings at the Kremas
has not been shown. 

My article on Prussian blue discusses some of the issues involved in
its possible formation. 77 The iron in Prussian blue exists in two
oxidation states Fe(II) and Fe(III) (the Roman numeral in parenthesis
denotes the formal positive charge on iron). The significant question
is how the Fe(III) present in construction materials forms Fe(II). Such
a process is called reduction and requires a reducing agent, viz.,
something that gets oxidized when Fe(III) gets reduced. (Oxidation
means the formal loss of electrons, i.e., negative charge, whereas
reduction means the gain of electrons.) 

Bailer could not think of a possible reducing agent and looked
elsewhere for a reason for the Prussian blue stains. 78 I consider his
explanation unlikely but not disproven. 

Rudolf has suggested HCN acts as the reducing agent, 79 and that
suggestion is possible. I have shown that if Rudolf's explanation for
the presence of Prussian blue in the delousing chambers is correct that
its formation in the gas chambers would have been unlikely at best. 80
Alich et al. have shown that this method of Prussian blue formation is
extremely sensitive to concentrations, pH, presence of water, and the
presence of Fe (III) that is already complexed with cyanide.81 It
should be mentioned that Rudolf tried and failed to produce Prussian
blue. 82 

The difficult part comes into play in understanding the kinetics of how
Prussian blue forms. How fast does it form and under what conditions?
The exposure conditions of the delousing chambers and the homicidal gas
chambers were quite different, if the Degesch directions for delousing
were followed. The walls in the delousing chambers may have been
exposed to HCN for over 20 hours at a time at levels up to 16,000 ppm.
Additionally, the amount of water present, the amount of carbon dioxide
present (from humans exhaling) and the temperature are crucial to
understanding the differences. I suspect that the kinetics are too
difficult to model without resort to experiment. In order to prove his
thesis, Rudolf must demonstrate that it is necessary for Prussian blue
to form under the conditions employed in the homicidal gas chambers. 

The control used in the measurements of Leuchter and Rudolf is biased.
They contain Prussian blue as the major form of cyanide and the
kinetics of Prussian blue formation are far from obvious. Cyanide
residues, not in the form of Prussian blue are far more susceptible to
weathering away. The IFRC researchers experimented with exposing
building materials to HCN and found that the cyanides were easily
removed with exposure to water. 83 The samples that they found
containing cyanides from the Kremas were carefully taken from places in
the chambers that were as sheltered from the elements as possible. 84
Leuchter and Rudolf, collecting their samples illegally could not
afford that luxury. 

The IFRC being aware of the problems using a biased control containing
Prussian blue used a method that discriminated against such compounds
that only measure other cyanides present. The IFRC found traces of
cyanide at levels significantly above background in all 5 Kremas as
well as bunker 11. They also measure concentrations in bath-house B1-A
in Birkenau, which was used for delousing prisoners' clothing. Samples
>from the bath house did indeed have higher concentrations of cyanides,
but it is not the case that every sample from the bath-house had higher
concentrations than every sample in the Kremas. For example, sample
number 25 from Krema II had measurements of 640,592, and 620 ug/kg.
Sample 46 from Krema V had measurements of 244, 248, and 232 ug/kg. In
contrast sample 53 from the bath-house camp B1-A in Birkenau had
measurements of 24, 20, and 24 ug/kg. Overall concentrations for the
fumigation chambers ranged from 0-900 ug/kg. In the Kremas they ranged
>from 0-640 ug/kg. So it is true that the highest measurements were
higher in fumigation chambers (discriminating against iron blues), but
not by much. There is another important fact. Concentrations in control
samples from dwelling accommodations were 0 +/- 1 ug/kg. In other
words, there is no doubt that the Kremas were exposed to a source of
HCN. If the intent is to prove that the Kremas could not have been
homicidal gas chambers, it has failed. 85 

Before concluding it is worth mentioning the case of the gas chamber at
Majdanek. This chamber has Prussian blue staining. Pressac has
interpreted this fact to mean that delousing must have taken place in
this chamber. 


The red-ochre bricks stained with dark blue were for him [Maître
Jouanneau] material and visible proof of the existence of homicidal gas
chambers. The problem , for there is one, is that the gas chamber
presented all the characteristics of a DELOUSING installation. I am not
saying that it was never used to kill people, for that is still
possible, but the traces of Prussian blue are an absolutely certain
indication of use for delousing purposes.... 86 


Pressac believes that the presence of Prussian blue proves that the
chamber was used for delousing. Whereas he does not view Prussian blue
as proof that the chamber was not used for homicidal purposes, he
implies that homicidal purposes alone would not produce Prussian blue. 

Happy to be logically inconsistent as long as they can spread a bit of
confusion to obfuscate the truth, at least one denier has claimed on
the basis of Pressac's statement that the chamber in question was only
a delousing chamber. 

I am not yet convinced of Pressac's reasoning. I do not think it is
obvious that homicidal gassing can never produce Prussian blue stains,
and I would suggest that a counterassertion demands the same kinetic
arguments that the deniers are unable to produce. 


FOOTNOTES:
Hilberg, op. cit. 

60.   McVay, op. cit. 

61.   Harmon, "Four million," op. cit. 

62.   Michael Shermer, Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience,
Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time, New York: W.H. Freeman
and Company, 1997, p. 233. 

63.   Ibid. 

64.   John Morris, "The Ball Challenge. Where is John Ball?",
http://www.nizkor.org/features/ball-challenge/ 

65.   Lüftl op. cit. 

66.   Jamie McCarthy, alt.revisionism, Subject: Lueftl's dishonesty and
cross-linking Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:13:01 -0400 Message-ID:
Available at
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/luftl.walter/evaporation-measurem
ent-lie 

67.   Lüftl op. cit. 

68.   Pitch Block, appendix, "Zyklon B" in Pierre Vidal-Naquet,
Assasins of Memory, Essays on the Denial of the Holocaust, New York,
Columbia University Press, 1992 p. 61. 

69.   Gerhard Peters: Blausäure zur Schädlingsbekämpfung (=Sammlung
chem. und chem.-techn. Vorträge; N.F. 20) Verlag von Ferdinand Enke,
Stuttgart 1933, p. 64f. Available on the web at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/peters-1933/ 

70.   Ulrich Roessler, alt.revisionism, Sat Dec 9 17:35:51 PST 1995
Subject: Re: Luftl's 'Report' Again (Re: Comments and Questions to Ulri
Message-ID: <4aclps$9cr@gwdu19.gwdg.de> Available at
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/rudolf.germar/rudolf-report.001 

71.   Ibid. 

72.   G. Peters and W. Rasch, Die Einsatzfähigkeit der
Blausäure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen.Zeitschrift f"ur
hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung, 11 (1941) pp. 133ff.
Available on the web at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/peters-rasch-1941/. 

73.   Pressac, Anatomy op. cit. 

74.   McVay, op. cit. 

75.   Budavari, op. cit. 

76.   J. Bailer, Amoklauf gegen die Wirklichkeit. Praca zbiorowa (B.
Gallanda, J. Bailer, F. Freund, T. Geisler, W. Lasek, N. Neugebauer, G.
Spenn, W. Wegner). Bundesministerium fuer Unterricht und Kultur Wien
1991. 

77.   Green, op. cit. 

78.   Bailer, op. cit. 

79.   Rudolf, op. cit. 

80.   Green, op. cit. 

81.   M.A. Alich, D.T. Howarth, M.F. Johnson, J. Inorg. Nucl.Chem.
1967, 29, pp. 1637-1642.. 

82.   Rudolf, op. cit. 

83.   Markiewicz, op. cit. 

84.   Ibid. 

85.   Ibid. 

86.   Pressac, Technique, op. cit., p. 555. 

*********************************************************

Here is some information on Leuchter's incompetence and foolishness:

Lipstadt Takes On Leuchter
via Nizkor

The Denier crowd often claims they've presented some "irrefutable"
answer to mainstream historians or that the same historians refuse to
answer their "analysis." These claims are false. 

Lipstadt discusses the demolition of Fred Leuchter's qualifications as
an
"expert" at the trial of Zündel: 

"With the jury out of the room, the court began to determine Leuchter's
qualifications as an expert witness. When the Crown Counsel questioned
him about his training in math, chemistry, physics, and toxicology, he
acknowledged that his only training in chemistry was "basic ...on the
college level." The only physics he had studied likewise consisted of
two courses taken when he was sutdying for a bachelor of arts (not
sciences) degree at Boston University. Admitting that he was not a
toxicologist and had no degree in engineering, he rather cavalierly
dismissed the need for it.<36> To this the judge responded sharply: 

THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don't have an
engineering degree? 

THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering
degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required
background training both on the college level and in the field to
perform my function as an engineer. 

THE COURT: Who determines that? You?<37> 

Throughout the trial [the judge] made it clear that he was appalled by
Leuchter's lack of training as an engineer as well as his depreciation
of the need for such training. The judge was particularly taken aback
by
Leuchter's repeated assertions that anyone who went to college had "the
necessary math and science" to be an electrical engineer and to conduct
the tests that he conducted at Auschwitz.<38> The judge ruled that
Leuchter could not serve as an expert witness on the construction and
functioning of the gas chambers. The judge's findings as to Leuchter's
suitability to comment on questions of engineering was unequivocal: 

THE COURT: I'm not going to have him get into the question of what's in
a brick, what's in iron, what is in - he has no expertise in this area.
He is an engineer because he has made himself an engineer in a very
limited area.<39> 

Unknown to the court, Leuchter, who admitted under oath that he had
only a bachelor of arts degree, was not being entirely candid regarding
his education. Implying that an engineering degree had been unavailable
to him, he told the court that when he was a student at Boston
University, the school did not offer a degree in engineering. In fact
it did, three different kinds.<40> Later in the trial, when the jury
returned to the room, Zündel's lawyer and Leuchter obfuscated the
paucity of his training: 

Q. And you are, I understand, a graduate of Boston University, with a
B.A. in a field that entitles you to function as an engineer. Is that
right? 

A. Yes, sir.<41> 

That field was history. 

Leuchter was also less than candid about his methodology. He repeatedly
asserted that he obtained the "bulk" of his research material on the
camps
- including maps, floor plans and "original blueprints" for the
crematoria
- from the official archives at Auschwitz/Birkenau and Majdanek. He
testified that these drawings and blueprints played a far more important
role in shaping his conclusions than the samples he collected at the
camp.<42> After the trial Kazimierz Smolen, the director of the
Auschwitz museum, unequivocally denied that Leuchter had received any
plans or blueprints from the museum.<43> He may have procured tourist
materials sold in the official souvenir kiosks in the camps.... 

... 

As citations from Leuchter's report were read, the judge's impatience
intensified. He characterized Leuchter's methodology as 'ridiculous' and
'preposterous.'<46> Ruling that 'this report is not going to be filed,'
the judge dismissed many of his conclusions as based on 'second-hand
information.' He refused to allow Leuchter to testify about the impact
of Zyklon-B on humans because he was neither a toxicologist nor a
chemist and had never worked with the gas.<47> Again and again the
judge kept coming back to Leuchter's capabilities and credibility: 

THE COURT: His opinion on this report is that there were never any
gassings or there was never any extermination carried on in this
facility. As far as I am concerned, from what I have heard, he is not
capable of giving that opinion.... He is not in a position to say, as
he said so sweepingly in this report, what could not have been carried
on in these facilities.<48> 

On the question of the functioning of the crematoria, despite the
defense attorney's opposition, the judge's decision was unequivocal. He
could not testify on this topic for a simple reason. 

THE COURT: He hasn't any expertise.<49> 

The judge might have been even more irritated had he known that Leuchter
misrepresented the extent of his familiarity with the operation of
hydrogen cyanide. He told the court that he had discussed matters
relating to the gas with the largest U.S. manufacturer of sodium
cyanide and hydrogen cyanide, Du Pont, and that such consultation was
'an on-going thing.' Leuchter was again being less than accurate. He
may have obtained Du Pont's published guidelines about the care needed
in using hydrogen cyanide or any other of the myriad of substances the
company manufactured. But Du Pont, denying Leuchter's claims of ongoing
consultations, stated that it had 'never provided any information on
cyanides to persons representing themselves as Holocaust deniers,
including Fred Leuchter. Specifically, Du Pont has never provided any
information regarding the use of cyanide at Auschwitz, Birkenau, or
Majdanek. <50> 

But it was not only Leuchter's scientific expertise, or lack thereof,
which was questioned by the court. The judge also expressed serious
doubts about Leuchter's historical knowledge, which, as it emerged at
the trial, was limited and often flawed. Leuchter was unaware of a host
of documents pertaining to the installation and construction of the gas
chambers and crematoria. He did not know of a report filed in June 1943
by the Waffen-SS commandant of construction at Auschwitz on the
completion of the crematoria. The report indicated that the five
crematoria had a total twenty-four-hour capacity of 4,756 bodies.<51>
Leuchter had stated that the crematoria had a total capacity of 156
bodies in the same period of time.
<52> Even if the SS's calculation was overly 'optimistic,' the
difference between it and Leuchter's was staggering. He also had to
admit that he did not know that there existed correspondence and
documentation regarding powerful ventilators installed in the gas
chambers to extract the gas that remained after the killings. After
hearing these and other admissions by Leuchter, Judge Thomas expressed
his dismay that Leuchter had reached his conclusions despite the fact
that he had only a 'nodding acquaintance' with the history of the gas
chambers. To suggest that he had any more than that,
the judge declared, would be an insult.<53>" (Lipstadt, 164-167) 

Even in history, the field in which Fred Leuchter gained his degree, it
seems he lacks expertise. As an engineer, he is clearly unqualified to
submit opinions to the court or anyone else. 

... and regarding Leuchter's shakedown scam: 

"On July 20,1990, Alabama Assistant Attorney General Ed Carnes sent a
memo to all capital-punishment states questioning Leuchter's
credentials and credibility. Carnes stated that not only were
Leuchter's views on the gas-chamber process "unorthodox" but that he
was running a shakedown scheme. If a state refused to use his services,
Leuchter would testify at the last minute on behalf of the inmate,
claiming that the state's gas chamber might malfunction <68>. According
to Carnes, Leuchter made 'money on both sides of the fence' <69>.
Describing Leuchter's behavior in Virginia, Florida, and Alabama,
Carnes observed that in less than thirty days Leuchter had testified in
three states that their electric-chair technology was too old and
unreliable to be used. In Florida and Virginia the federal courts had
rejected Leuchter's testimony as unreliable. In Florida the court had
found that Leuchter had 'misquoted the statements' contained in an
important affidavit and had 'inaccurately surmised' a crucial premise
of his conclusion <70>. In Virginia, Leuchter provided a death-row
inmate's attorney with an affidavit claiming the electric chair
would fail. The Virginia court decided the credibility of Leuchter's
affidavit was limited because Leuchter was 'the refused contractor who
bid to replace the electrodes in the Virginia chair'<71>." (Lipstadt,
170) 

Lipstadt's Footnotes: 

<36> Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario,
1988 (hereafter referred to as Zundel), pp.8962, 8969, 8972, 8978 
<37> Ibid., p. 8973 
<38> See testimony of Raul Hilberg at the first Zundel trial. Her
Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zundel, District Court of Ontario, 1985, p.
1112; Zundel, 1988, pp. 9010, 9011, 9013. 
<39> Zundel, p. 9048 
<40> Shelly Shapiro, "An Investigation," in _Truth Prevails: Demolishing
Holocaust Denial: The End of "The Leuchter Report"_ ed. Shelly Shapiro
(New York, 1990), p. 14; Arthur Goodman, "Leuchter: Exposed and
Discredited by the Court," in Shapiro, "Truth Prevails," p. 78 
<41> Zundel, p. 9056 
<42> Ibid., pp. 8984, 9017, 9061, 9097, 9125, 9154, 9210, 9223 
<43> Shapiro, "Truth Prevails," p. 56 
<44> Zundel, pp. 8894-95 
<45> Ibid., p. 8983 
<46> Ibid., pp. 9052-53 
<47> Ibid., pp. 9034-9038 
<48> Ibid., pp. 9049-50 
<49> Ibid., pp. 8976, 9052 
<50> Ibid., p. 8951; Statement by E.I. DuPont de Nemours & Company,
Oct. 2,
1990, cited in Shapiro, p. 28 
<51> Zundel, pp. 9028-9034 
<52> Leuchter Report, p. 10 
<53> Zundel, pp. 9028, 9034 
<68> Memorandum from Ed Carnes, Alabama Assistant Attorney General, to
all Capital Punishment States July 20,1990 (hereafter cited as Carnes);
Shapiro "Truth Prevails" pp. 17 and 21; Newsweek, Oct. 22, 1990, p. 64;
Swampscott Journal, Nov. 1, 1990. 
<69> Associated Press, Oct. 24, 1990. 
<70> Carnes, Op.Cit., 2 
<71> Shapiro, "Truth Prevails", p.22. 

Work Cited 

Lipstadt, Deborah. Denying The Holocaust. New York: Macmillan, 1993.
Toronto: Maxwell MacMillan Canada. ISBN: 0-02-919235-8 


********************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:29:39 EST 2001
Article: 260046 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes2.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!scrappy.visi.com.MISMATCH!newsreader.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Deniers - where is the evidence?
Supersedes: <170320011914027815%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:32:41 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 281
Message-ID: <170320012032411610%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com> <090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <1nxs6.4$Jp4.195905@news1.i1.net> <170320011020116065%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984853960 29025 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 18:32:40 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 18:32:40 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874860 soc.culture.usa:609407 soc.culture.canada:260046

In article , Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:170320011020116065%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> >
> > The Leuchter Report has been thoroughly debunked as pseudo-scientific
> > hogwash produced by an incompetent fool.
> 
>     Naturally that is what the  Jews and other leftists say.

First, Alex, I want to thank you for having been courteous enough to
comment in a reasonable manner on my posting and not just post some
quotes from _Mein Kampf_. I know we disagree on just about everything,
but I appreciate the effort you took to express your viewpoints.

Criticism of the Leuchter report has been raised by the Canadian court
system, the British court system, chemists such as Mr. Green, author of
"The Chemistry of Auschwitz", the Cracow Forensic Institute, and, last
but not least, David Irving himself.


> >
> > Here is some information about the methodological errors in Leuchter's
> > pseudo-scientific hogwash:
> >
> > Methodological error 1:
> > >      "Thirty-one samples
> >
> > Leuchter took core samples, when he should have taken scraping samples.
> 
>     He took the same kind of sample from the delousing chamber. Yet the
> delousing chamber sample had a lot of cyanide while the "gas chamber"
> samples did not.

Nevertheless, some of them had some cyanide, while others did not.
Finding cyanide in some places but not others is inconsistent with
Leuchter's unfounded claim that the cyanide is the result having once
been deloused. Instead, it indicates that cyanide was used in some
parts of the building, but not in others.

> >
> > Methodological error 2:
> > > were selectively removed from the alleged gas
> > > chambers at Kremas I, II, III, IV and V.
> >
> > Krema I is a partial restoration and has undegone extensive
> > modification since it served as a gas chamber.
> 
>    In other words it is a fake.

It is not a fake at all. The building has a complex history. It was
once a morgue, then a gas chamber, then an air-raid shelter, now a
museum with many of the modifications that were made when it was
transformed from a gas chamber to an air-raid shelter removed, and many
of the gas chamber features that had been removed and placed in storage
restored. If it's a "fake", then any object or place which has been
museumified in good faith is a fake. I hope you appreciate the
absurdity of your claim. The bottom line is that gassings did take
place in Krema I, and even Leuchter found traces of HCN compunds there
which are consistent with this claim.


> > Kremas II and III have
> > been exposed to the elements for the past 56 years, including extended
> > times partially submerged in water. Kremas IV and V exist only as
> > building foundations. Leuchter did not contact the Auschwitz Museum
> > officials and thus did not have access to the blueprints showing
> > precisely where the gas chambers, relatively small, were located in
> > these relatively large structures. His use of the word "selectively" is
> > thus a cover word for "from places that I was able to gain access to",
> > since the sample collection (in this case vandalism) was done illegally
> > and without the proper architectural and historical documents.
> >
>      So now the "gas chambers" were "relatively small". At first the
> holocaust believers said there wasn't much cyanide in these rooms because it
> took more cyanide to kill the lice in the delousing chamber than the humans
> in the alledged gas chambers. To this I said that if the Germans were
> gassing the number of Jews they are charged with, then the gas chambers must
> of been operating almost 24/7.

No. We have deportation records and train transport records of the
number of people (not just Jews) being sent to Auschwitz, as well as of
the number of people actually being signed into the camp. Until the
action against Hungarian Jews started in early 1944, the gas chambers
were being used on a regular basis, but nothing close to 24/7. A few
trainlaods of a few thousand a day at most, sometimes fewer, sometiems
more; a few gassings per day in some of the chamber at II and III, and
then later IV and V as well.

> Almost all the time for years and there
> should of been more cyanide on the walls. To this the holo believers said
> that the gas chambers were huge and all those Jews could of been gassed
> without 24/7 and without a heavy concentration of cyanide left on the walls.
> But now we are assured that the "gas chambers" were "relatively small".
> There seems to be a lot of hot air in what the believers are saying.

They were "huge" in the sense that they could accommodate hundreds of
people; they were "relatively small" compared to the entire building of
which they were only a component. A Boeing 747 is a huge airplane, but
it is relatively small compared to the airport at which it lands.


> > Methodological error 3:
> > > A control sample was taken from delousing facility #1 at Birkenau.
> >
> > His control sample is biased. If his objective was to detect and
> > measure cyanide compounds, his control sample should have been as free
> > as possible from such compounds and have been taken from a place that,
> > as far as is known, was never exposed to cyanide.
> 
>      This appears to be nonsense. Is there a reason I should not think so of
> it?

If you have ever done any chemistry you know that when doing
qualitative analysis you select a control that is as free as possible
>from the substance you are looking for.


> > Methodological error 4:
> > > The control sample was removed from a
> > > delousing chamber in a location where cyanide was known to have been
> used
> > > and was apparently present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the
> control
> > > sample #32  showed a cyanide content of 1050 mg/kg, a very heavy
> > > concentration.
> >
> > Leuchter, who revealed at the Zündel trial that he has no understanding
> > of the different manners in which cyanide affects insects as opposed to
> > humans, did not understand that it takes higher concentrations of HCN
> > (approx. 16,000 ppm vs. 300 ppm) maintained over a much longer period
> > of time (20 hours vs. 15 minutes) to kill vermin than it does to kill
> 
>     But if the Germans were gassing as many Jews as we are told then the
> "gas chambers" must have been running almost 24/7 for years. If this was the
> case there would be a lot of cyanide on the walls.

No.

The "as we are told" is not an argument. There are records of the times
when the gas chambers were and were not being used. A gassing involved
the doors being closed for 30 minutes, after which the premises were
ventilated, cleared of bodies, and hosed down to rid the room of the
body fluids that necessarily accompanied an operation of this type. A
delousing involved the doors being closed for 20 hours, after which the
premises were ventilated, but not hosed down. The physiochemistry of
cyanide compound formation is complex, and I am not qualified to speak
about it except for pointing out the obvious fact that: the conditions
for HCN compound formation and retention on:
a) the internal walls of intact structures that were subjected over a
four year period between 60 and 56 years ago to 20 hour periods of
exposure to 16,000 ppm concentrations of HCN followed by a a few hours
of ventilation and then a new load, and
b) the once internal but now long exposed walls that were subjected 30
minute periods of exposure to 300 ppm concentrations of HCN followed by
a brief ventilation and a hosedowm and a considerable interval between
the next load,
are necessarily going to be radically different.

As an analogy, consider the walls of a room at a bar where cigars were
smoked on a continuous basis over several years, after which the room
was sealed and forgotten, as opposed to the walls of a room where
cigarettes were occasionally smoked, after which the room was destroyed
in an earthquake and left to lie in ruins for half a century. 


> > Methodological error 5:
> > > The conditions at areas from which these samples were taken
> > > are identical with those of the control sample, cold, dark, and wet.
> >
> > The delousing chamber had not been exposed to the elements since 1944,
> > while Kremas II through V had been, this meaning that the conditions
> > for the decomposiiton of possible cyanide compounds were radically
> > different for the control sample as opposed to those taken from the gas
> > chamber sites.
> 
>      This sounds reasonable to me. But if this is the case there is
> certainly no proof that the Germans had any gas chambers. 

Neither is it proof that they didn't have. Mastery of the technique of
delousing by Zyklon-B logically includes mastery of the technique of
killing people by Zyklon-B.

> They also didn't find any bodies of people who died from being gassed.

The Germans had more than eight weeks to dispose of the evidence. Even
if they had not gone to a special effort to dispose of the evidence,
you don't think they would have had corpses from the last gassings at
Auschwitz, which took place in mid-November, 1944, still lying around
when the camp was liberated in mid January, 1945.

The recently discovered excavations at the site of the Belzec
extermination center indicate the existence many unburned human
remains. If some of these remains are dug up and examined and found to
have no signs of disease or physical violence, then the conclusion will
surely be that they were the victims of gassing, as indicated by the
historical record.


> > Methodological error 6:
> > > Only
> > > Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect  that these locations had
> sunlight
> > > (the buildings have been torn down) and sunlight may hasten the
> destruction
> > > of uncomplexed cyanide.
> >
> > Kremas II, III, IV, and V, each in their own way, had been exposed to
> > the elements. The conditions in them were thus radically diferent from
> > those of either the delousing chambers or Krema I.
> 
>     The cyanide combines with the iron in the mortar and
>  brick and becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide or prussian blue pigmentation, a
> very
>  stable iron-cyanide complex.

The delousing chambers and Krema I had not been exposed to the elements
since 1944, Kremas II, II, IV, and V had. Cyanide compounds are not
impervious to the influences of water and humidity.


> > Methodological error 7:

>     This is what you wrote and what started this thread:
> 
> "There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
> include:
> 1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
> 2. The traces of human remains found during the geological exaination
> of the Auschwitz camp.
> 3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventilation"
> 
>        Do you admit that #3 is false or at least deliberately misleading?

Not at all. Leuchter made the unsubstantiated claim that the traces of
cyanide on the walls (he didn't mention the ventilation) were
consequence of delousing of the structures carried out "once, long
ago". This conveniently neglects three important points:

1. If they were consequences of delousing, we would expect a record of
this in camp archives. No such records have been found.
2. If they were consequences of delousing, we would expect a more even
distribution in the buildings which housed the gas chambers. In some
places there are obvious traces, in others there are none.
3. Since delousing requires a far higher concentration of and a longer
exposure time to HCN, there is nothing to preclude these compounds
being the consequences of gassing.

> >
> > Methodological error 8:
> >
> > >      "The locations from which the analyzed samples were removed are set
> out
> > > in Table III.
> > >      "It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that
> the
> > > few that were positive were very close to the detection level (1mg/kg);
> 6.7
> > > mg/kg at Krema III; 7.9 mg/kg at Krerma I.
> >
> > Leuchter, not understanding that the concentrations of HCN needed to
> > kill people need be no higher than 300 ppm does not understand that,
> > his methodological errors notwithstanding, these figures are consistent
> > with the structures in question having been used as homicidal gas
> > chambers.
> 
>      Zyklon B is an insecticide. There is no doubt that it was used to kill
> the lice. If it was used to kill humans then this is the same number of ppm.

What you wrote above is nonsense.

You need 16,000 ppm sustained over 20 hours  to kill lice, but only 300
ppm sustained over 15 min. to kill people. Exposures (concentrations
maintained over a specific timeframe) that kill lice always kill
people, exposures that kill people never kill lice.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:01 EST 2001
Article: 874538 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Fuehrer Euthanasia Authorization
Supersedes: <160320011312496572%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:34:17 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <160320011534179302%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <8g+vOg9orqTq+6NDilivDazpfks=@4ax.com> <3AB08489.6106FB0D@softhome.net> <150320011217574178%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB1DFB5.3F9A86BB@richards.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984749655 6770 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 13:34:15 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 13:34:15 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874538 alt.politics.white-power:522229 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507514 alt.flame.niggers:434355

In article <3AB1DFB5.3F9A86BB@richards.net>, Carol Richards
 wrote:

> Show us the written Fuhrer authorization or shut up. You propagandists first
> make a post about Fuhrer authorizations, then when asked to provide the most
> essential one for the Holohoax, you come with smoke and mirrors instead! blah,
> blah, blah
> 

Unlike you, I am not a propagandist, but rather am working with extant
historical evidence. The historical evidence reveals that there was an
orally given "Führerbefehl" to kill Jews, and that this was announced
and discussed at the police school at Pretzsch, Saxony, where the
Einsatzkommandos were being trained in advance of the attack on the
USSR on June 22, 1941. Hitler's dictatorial style of government relied
on orally given commands, there is nothing that we can do about it.
There is no written authorization from Hitler to construct a network of
concentration camps, either, yet they are there.

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/Ezergailis_preface.html


The Nazi agencies responsible for the killing of the Jews in Latvia
started a misinformation program about the killing even before the
killings took place. Hitler's refusal to attach a signature to his
order is an early indication. Thus a vacuum of information was created
at the very top. The paper trail, as to who ordered whom, was broken,
and that has allowed for a variety of interpretations ever since. As
there were no written orders from above to the commanders of the
Einsatzgruppen, so there were no written orders from the commanders of
the Einsatzgruppen to the commanders of the Einsatzkommandos or any of
the subsidiary Sicherheitspolizei und SD (in the future referred to as
Security Police and SD or simply as SD) units: Teilkommandos,
Schiefikommandos, Rollkommandos. Nor are there any written orders from
the German commandos to the Latvian commandos or police forces. The
irony is that the rules of omerta held firm for orders and information
flowing down, but the system broke down in the flow of information from
the field to the Main Office of Security Police and SD in Berlin, the
Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA). Owing to the breakdown of secrecy, we
have inherited the Ereignismeldungen (EM) (frequently translated as
Situation Reports), summaries of the Einsatzgruppen daily activities.
In addition to the Ereignismeldungen there are also the two
Stahlecker's Consolidated Reports (15 October 1941 and 30 January 1942)
that reveal the murderous Nazi design in Latvia.


The historical record tells us that the day after the invasion of the
Soviet Union began, Stahlecker told German policemen in Tilsit that
their task was to subject nearby Lithuanian Jews and suspected
Communists to "special treatment," which they proceeded to do. On July
28, 1941 Himmler issued a written order to shoot all "racially inferior
and criminal elements" in the marsh areas. [1] The Nazis employed both
labels as standard descriptions for Jews.

[1] Justiz und NS-Verbrechen: Sammlung deutscher Strafurteile wegen
nationalsozialistischer Tötungsverbrechen, 1945-1966, 22 vols.
(Amsterdam, 1979), 20: 304-5. 


Source: http://www.quesnelbc.com/electriczen/documents/introduction.html

The Shooting Was Efficient, But Other Methods Were Tried 

Himmler was a chicken as well as a chicken farmer. In July or August,
1941, Himmler visited Einsatzgruppe B where he witnessed a mass
shooting at Minsk. An eyewitness describing what happened during
Himmler's visit to Minsk while watched the killing of a group of one
hundred Jews: 


As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each
volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was
Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed
Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes
of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are
finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers
are we training here? Either neurotics or savages." 

Arad, "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka", p. 8. 

In reaction to the experience of watching 100 human beings murdered in
this fashion, Himmler ordered that a more "humane" method of execution
be found. (Reitlinger SS 183) Otto Ohlendorf explained in his testimony
at Nuremberg "That was a special order from Himmler to the effect that
women and children were not to be exposed to the mental strain of the
executions; and thus the men of the kommandos, mostly married men,
should not be compelled to aim at women and children." 

This order was first implemented with gas vans designed by Dr. Becker.
Later the terrible extermination camps, where millions of people were
gassed and starved, were established. 

The infamous extermination camps were set up shortly after Himmler's
visit to Minsk. The first of these was Chelmo which began gassing Jews
and others on December 8, 1941. Treblinka, Sobibor, and Madjadek
followed in the spring of 1942. Additionally the most famous
extermination camp, Auschwitz, began experimenting with Zyclon-B in
September, 1941. While mass gassings were conducted at Auschwitz in the
spring of 1942, the real work of mass extermination started with the
operation of "Bunker 2" on July 4, 1942 (D-VP 305) 

There Is No Way to Rationalize and Justify These Crimes 

There are some who would try to deny or justify the murders committed
by the Einsatzgruppen. The most benign explanation for this denial was
given by Justice Michael Musmanno -- an experienced judge and hardened
combat veteran -- who presided at the trial of the Einsatzgruppen.
Shocked and sickened by the evidence which he heard, Justice Musmanno
wrote: 


One reads and reads these accounts of which here we can give only a few
excerpts and yet there remains the instinct to disbelieve, to question,
to doubt. There is less of a mental barrier in accepting the weirdest
stories of supernatural phenomena, as for instance, water running up
hill and trees with roots reaching toward the sky, than in taking at
face value these narratives which go beyond the frontiers of human
cruelty and savagery. Only the fact that the reports from which we have
quoted came from the pens of men within the accused organizations can
the human mind be assured that all this actually happened. The reports
and the statements of the defendants themselves verify what otherwise
would be dismissed as the product of a disordered imagination. 

Judgement of the Tribunal, p. 50. 
The crimes happened. No honest person can look you in the eye and state
otherwise. Why would someone deny these crimes, justify these crimes,
rationalize these crimes? 

You tell me. 

***********************************************************

Regards.
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:01 EST 2001
Article: 874550 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lipstadt is a nut
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:25:59 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <160320011725592558%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <858b697ed4ae2d25a744fd5ab2b68c36@remailer.segfault.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984756359 12965 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 15:25:59 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 15:25:59 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874550

In article <858b697ed4ae2d25a744fd5ab2b68c36@remailer.segfault.net>,
Anonymous Coredump  wrote:

> This lipstadt bitch is really stupid.

Give examples with analysis of her stupidity. She is certainly not as
stupid as the man who accused her of libel and then lost the case on
his home turf.

> Nowadays
> even an idiot can become an academic and
> that frightens people.

Demonstrate why and how Ms. Lipstadt, the author of several books and
an internationally recognized scholar, is an idiot.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:02 EST 2001
Article: 874559 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dead Jews gassed
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:11:17 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <160320011811171367%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3ab1f8ea.4793821@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984759078 15338 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 16:11:18 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 16:11:18 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874559

In article <3ab1f8ea.4793821@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> 
> If one tried to see how long they could breath with their head inside
> a box that size we can realize that with every breath and exhale there
> would be less oxygen in each subsequent breath. Seems like a person
> would be sorely stressed for air within a couple of minutes.
> 
> Standard Holocaust accounts tell us it took anywhere from 5 to 15
> minutes to gas a load of victims when it seems like they would have
> already been dead in the first couple of minutes from suffocation.
>     

This is what I've been writing for the past year now. The Nazi gas
chambers were low-tech, inefficient, minimalist installations. Even
though the gas chambers used poison gas, the victims did not all die of
poisoning. Some suffocated, others were crushed in the pandemonium that
ensued when the victims realized what was happening.

A second consideration is that many of the victims were children and
babies. Small children and babies are able to survive longer periods of
oxygen deprivation than adults. On a pure time scale, they would have
been the ones most likely to die of gas but, on the other hand, due to
their small size, they are also the ones most likely to have been
crushed or trampled.

Source: http://remember.org/camps/mauthausen/mau-gas01.html


This chamber in Mauthausen was built in the basement, below the sick
quarters. It was completed and used by the spring of 1942. On the other
hand, the sick quarters were only half completed at war's end. The SS
would cram 120 persons into this chamber, seal the doors and pump in
carbon monoxide. Inefficient as it was, the prisoners often died of
suffocation rather than the gas. ³Consequently, when the doors were
opened to remove the bodies, it was found that the dead were covered
not only with excrement and blood, but their eyes protruded from their
heads and their bodies stiffened into grotesque positions.² [1] 

[1] Evelyn Le ChÈne, Mauthausen, The History of a Death Camp, London:
Methuen, 1971 (in Konnilyn G. Feig, Hitler's Death Camps, London:
Holmes & Meyers, 1979). 
   

*********************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:02 EST 2001
Article: 874563 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lipstadt is a nut
Supersedes: <160320011828243147%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:31:17 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <160320011831173521%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <858b697ed4ae2d25a744fd5ab2b68c36@remailer.segfault.net> <160320011725592558%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984760277 16356 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 16:31:17 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 16:31:17 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874563

In article <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> >Demonstrate why and how Ms. Lipstadt, the author of several books and
> >an internationally recognized scholar, is an idiot.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Eugene Holman
> 
> 
> How about reading her books for a starter?

Been there, done that:

Author: Lipstadt Deborah E.
Title: Beyond Belief : The American Press and the Coming of the
Holocaust, 1933-1945
ISBN: 0029191610

Author: Lipstadt Deborah E.
Title: Denying the Holocaust : The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory
ISBN: 0029192358

They are readable and well-researched works of scholarship.

> Would that tell us
> something? "internationally recognized scholar"?  In what?  

History and Holocaust Studies; don't you know anything?

Source: http://www.jewishjournal.com/old/gene.1.28.0.htm



While she [= Deborah Lipstad, EH] is now a professor of Jewish and
Holocaust studies at Emory University in Atlanta, many Angelenos
remember her from the days when she was a professor of history at UCLA;
she subsequently served as director at Brandeis-Bardin Institute in
Simi Valley during the mid and late 1980s.

The charge of libel revolves around Irving's claim that Lipstadt
defamed him, ruined his reputation, and, beyond that, is leading an
international Jewish conspiracy to destroy him. The defamation
occurred, he says, in Lipstadt's 1993 book, "Denying the Holocaust: The
Growing Assault on Truth and Memory" published by Penguin Books.
According to Irving, Lipstadt charged him with "praising the internment
of Jews in Nazi concentration camps" and with skewing historical
accounts as well as misrepresenting "data in order to reach untenable
conclusions."

In essence she accused him of falsifying history in order to deny that
gas chambers existed in Auschwitz, or that Hitler and the German
government systematically murdered Europe's Jews during the Second
World War.



Need I remind you of who won the trial?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:03 EST 2001
Article: 874565 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lipstadt is a nut
Supersedes: <160320011836091091%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:38:42 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <160320011838420321%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <858b697ed4ae2d25a744fd5ab2b68c36@remailer.segfault.net> <160320011725592558%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984760722 16356 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 16:38:43 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 16:38:43 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874565

In article <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> >Demonstrate why and how Ms. Lipstadt, the author of several books and
> >an internationally recognized scholar, is an idiot.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Eugene Holman
> 
> 
> How about reading her books for a starter?

Been there, done that:

Author: Lipstadt Deborah E.
Title: Beyond Belief : The American Press and the Coming of the
Holocaust, 1933-1945
ISBN: 0029191610

Author: Lipstadt Deborah E.
Title: Denying the Holocaust : The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory
ISBN: 0029192358

They are readable and well-researched works of scholarship.

> Would that tell us
> something? "internationally recognized scholar"?  In what?  

History and Holocaust Studies; don't you know anything? The famous
Irving vs. Lipstadt trial took place in the UK, thus demonstrating the
international impact of her work. QED. 

Source: http://www.jewishjournal.com/old/gene.1.28.0.htm



While she [= Deborah Lipstadt, EH] is now a professor of Jewish and
Holocaust studies at Emory University in Atlanta, many Angelenos
remember her from the days when she was a professor of history at UCLA;
she subsequently served as director at Brandeis-Bardin Institute in
Simi Valley during the mid and late 1980s.

The charge of libel revolves around Irving's claim that Lipstadt
defamed him, ruined his reputation, and, beyond that, is leading an
international Jewish conspiracy to destroy him. The defamation
occurred, he says, in Lipstadt's 1993 book, "Denying the Holocaust: The
Growing Assault on Truth and Memory" published by Penguin Books.
According to Irving, Lipstadt charged him with "praising the internment
of Jews in Nazi concentration camps" and with skewing historical
accounts as well as misrepresenting "data in order to reach untenable
conclusions."

In essence she accused him of falsifying history in order to deny that
gas chambers existed in Auschwitz, or that Hitler and the German
government systematically murdered Europe's Jews during the Second
World War.



Need I remind you of who won the trial?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:03 EST 2001
Article: 874591 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lipstadt is a nut
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:24:47 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <160320012024473132%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <858b697ed4ae2d25a744fd5ab2b68c36@remailer.segfault.net> <160320011725592558%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net> <3AB23AA3.91831E8B@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984767088 22103 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 18:24:48 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 18:24:48 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874591

In article <3AB23AA3.91831E8B@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> tom moran wrote:
> 
> > >Demonstrate why and how Ms. Lipstadt, the author of several books and
> > >an internationally recognized scholar, is an idiot.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Eugene Holman
> >
> > How about reading her books for a starter? Would that tell us
> > something? "internationally recognized scholar"?  In what?
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> At the time of the Lipstadt/Irving Trial, one British observer commented
> that she had "about the intelligence of an ordinary housewife."
> 

A statement that can be interpreted in many ways, seeing that the
ordinary housewife has to function as an arbitrator, chemist, cook,
care-giver, designer, economist, hostess, referee, physician, and
psychologist.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> I would call her the sad result of an insufficiency of quality
> orgasms.      This is known to warp a woman's personality in strange ways.
> 
> ===================================================

You should be ashamed of yourself for revealing the warpedness of your
own personality by writing such crap.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:03 EST 2001
Article: 874593 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lipstadt is a nut
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:42:16 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 215
Message-ID: <160320012042166208%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <858b697ed4ae2d25a744fd5ab2b68c36@remailer.segfault.net> <160320011725592558%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984768137 22975 128.214.199.213 (16 Mar 2001 18:42:17 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 18:42:17 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874593

In article <3ac43a4b.140015923@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:


> 
> How about reading her books for a starter? Would that tell us
> something? "internationally recognized scholar"?  In what?  

Debunking Holocaust denial:

Lipstadt Takes On Leuchter
via Nizkor

The Denier crowd often claims they've presented some "irrefutable"
answer to mainstream historians or that the same historians refuse to
answer their "analysis." These claims are false. 

Lipstadt discusses the demolition of Fred Leuchter's qualifications as
an "expert" at the trial of Zündel: 

"With the jury out of the room, the court began to determine Leuchter's
qualifications as an expert witness. When the Crown Counsel questioned
him about his training in math, chemistry, physics, and toxicology, he
acknowledged that his only training in chemistry was "basic ...on the
college level." The only physics he had studied likewise consisted of
two courses taken when he was sutdying for a bachelor of arts (not
sciences) degree at Boston University. Admitting that he was not a
toxicologist and had no degree in engineering, he rather cavalierly
dismissed the need for it.<36> To this the judge responded sharply: 

THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don't have an
engineering degree? 

THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering
degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required
background training both on the college level and in the field to
perform my function as an engineer. 

THE COURT: Who determines that? You?<37> 

Throughout the trial [the judge] made it clear that he was appalled by
Leuchter's lack of training as an engineer as well as his depreciation
of the need for such training. The judge was particularly taken aback
by
Leuchter's repeated assertions that anyone who went to college had "the
necessary math and science" to be an electrical engineer and to conduct
the tests that he conducted at Auschwitz.<38> The judge ruled that
Leuchter could not serve as an expert witness on the construction and
functioning of the gas chambers. The judge's findings as to Leuchter's
suitability to comment on questions of engineering was unequivocal: 

THE COURT: I'm not going to have him get into the question of what's in
a brick, what's in iron, what is in - he has no expertise in this area.
He is an engineer because he has made himself an engineer in a very
limited area.<39> 

Unknown to the court, Leuchter, who admitted under oath that he had
only a bachelor of arts degree, was not being entirely candid regarding
his education. Implying that an engineering degree had been unavailable
to him, he told the court that when he was a student at Boston
University, the school did not offer a degree in engineering. In fact
it did, three different kinds.<40> Later in the trial, when the jury
returned to the room, Zündel's lawyer and Leuchter obfuscated the
paucity of his training: 

Q. And you are, I understand, a graduate of Boston University, with a
B.A. in a field that entitles you to function as an engineer. Is that
right? 

A. Yes, sir.<41> 

That field was history. 

Leuchter was also less than candid about his methodology. He repeatedly
asserted that he obtained the "bulk" of his research material on the
camps
- including maps, floor plans and "original blueprints" for the
crematoria
- from the official archives at Auschwitz/Birkenau and Majdanek. He
testified that these drawings and blueprints played a far more important
role in shaping his conclusions than the samples he collected at the
camp.<42> After the trial Kazimierz Smolen, the director of the
Auschwitz museum, unequivocally denied that Leuchter had received any
plans or blueprints from the museum.<43> He may have procured tourist
materials sold in the official souvenir kiosks in the camps.... 

... 

As citations from Leuchter's report were read, the judge's impatience
intensified. He characterized Leuchter's methodology as 'ridiculous' and
'preposterous.'<46> Ruling that 'this report is not going to be filed,'
the judge dismissed many of his conclusions as based on 'second-hand
information.' He refused to allow Leuchter to testify about the impact
of Zyklon-B on humans because he was neither a toxicologist nor a
chemist and had never worked with the gas.<47> Again and again the
judge kept coming back to Leuchter's capabilities and credibility: 

THE COURT: His opinion on this report is that there were never any
gassings or there was never any extermination carried on in this
facility. As far as I am concerned, from what I have heard, he is not
capable of giving that opinion.... He is not in a position to say, as
he said so sweepingly in this report, what could not have been carried
on in these facilities.<48> 

On the question of the functioning of the crematoria, despite the
defense attorney's opposition, the judge's decision was unequivocal. He
could not testify on this topic for a simple reason. 

THE COURT: He hasn't any expertise.<49> 

The judge might have been even more irritated had he known that Leuchter
misrepresented the extent of his familiarity with the operation of
hydrogen cyanide. He told the court that he had discussed matters
relating to the gas with the largest U.S. manufacturer of sodium
cyanide and hydrogen cyanide, Du Pont, and that such consultation was
'an on-going thing.' Leuchter was again being less than accurate. He
may have obtained Du Pont's published guidelines about the care needed
in using hydrogen cyanide or any other of the myriad of substances the
company manufactured. But Du Pont, denying Leuchter's claims of ongoing
consultations, stated that it had 'never provided any information on
cyanides to persons representing themselves as Holocaust deniers,
including Fred Leuchter. Specifically, Du Pont has never provided any
information regarding the use of cyanide at Auschwitz, Birkenau, or
Majdanek. <50> 

But it was not only Leuchter's scientific expertise, or lack thereof,
which was questioned by the court. The judge also expressed serious
doubts about Leuchter's historical knowledge, which, as it emerged at
the trial, was limited and often flawed. Leuchter was unaware of a host
of documents pertaining to the installation and construction of the gas
chambers and crematoria. He did not know of a report filed in June 1943
by the Waffen-SS commandant of construction at Auschwitz on the
completion of the crematoria. The report indicated that the five
crematoria had a total twenty-four-hour capacity of 4,756 bodies.<51>
Leuchter had stated that the crematoria had a total capacity of 156
bodies in the same period of time. <52> Even if the SS's calculation
was overly 'optimistic,' the difference between it and Leuchter's was
staggering. He also had to admit that he did not know that there
existed correspondence and documentation regarding powerful ventilators
installed in the gas chambers to extract the gas that remained after
the killings. After hearing these and other admissions by Leuchter,
Judge Thomas expressed his dismay that Leuchter had reached his
conclusions despite the fact that he had only a 'nodding acquaintance'
with the history of the gas chambers. To suggest that he had any more
than that, the judge declared, would be an insult.<53>" (Lipstadt,
164-167) 

Even in history, the field in which Fred Leuchter gained his degree, it
seems he lacks expertise. As an engineer, he is clearly unqualified to
submit opinions to the court or anyone else. 

... and regarding Leuchter's shakedown scam: 

"On July 20,1990, Alabama Assistant Attorney General Ed Carnes sent a
memo
to all capital-punishment states questioning Leuchter's credentials and
credibility. Carnes stated that not only were Leuchter's views on the
gas-chamber process "unorthodox" but that he was running a shakedown
scheme. If a state refused to use his services, Leuchter would testify
at the last minute on behalf of the inmate, claiming that the state's
gas chamber might malfunction <68>. According to Carnes, Leuchter made
'money on both sides of the fence' <69>. Describing Leuchter's behavior
in Virginia, Florida, and Alabama, Carnes observed that in less than
thirty days Leuchter had testified in three states that their
electric-chair technology was too old and unreliable to be used. In
Florida and Virginia the federal courts had rejected Leuchter's
testimony as unreliable. In Florida the court had found that Leuchter
had 'misquoted the statements' contained in an important affidavit and
had 'inaccurately surmised' a crucial premise of his conclusion <70>.
In Virginia, Leuchter provided a death-row inmate's attorney with an
affidavit claiming the electric chair would fail. The Virginia court
decided the credibility of Leuchter's affidavit was limited because
Leuchter was 'the refused contractor who bid to replace the electrodes
in the Virginia chair'<71>." (Lipstadt, 170) 

Lipstadt's Footnotes: 

<36> Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario,
1988 (hereafter referred to as Zundel), pp.8962, 8969, 8972, 8978 
<37> Ibid., p. 8973 
<38> See testimony of Raul Hilberg at the first Zundel trial. Her
Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zundel, District Court of Ontario, 1985, p.
1112;
Zundel, 1988, pp. 9010, 9011, 9013. 
<39> Zundel, p. 9048 
<40> Shelly Shapiro, "An Investigation," in _Truth Prevails: Demolishing
Holocaust Denial: The End of "The Leuchter Report"_ ed. Shelly Shapiro
(New York, 1990), p. 14; Arthur Goodman, "Leuchter: Exposed and
Discredited by the Court," in Shapiro, "Truth Prevails," p. 78 
<41> Zundel, p. 9056 
<42> Ibid., pp. 8984, 9017, 9061, 9097, 9125, 9154, 9210, 9223 
<43> Shapiro, "Truth Prevails," p. 56 
<44> Zundel, pp. 8894-95 
<45> Ibid., p. 8983 
<46> Ibid., pp. 9052-53 
<47> Ibid., pp. 9034-9038 
<48> Ibid., pp. 9049-50 
<49> Ibid., pp. 8976, 9052 
<50> Ibid., p. 8951; Statement by E.I. DuPont de Nemours & Company,
Oct. 2, 1990, cited in Shapiro, p. 28 
<51> Zundel, pp. 9028-9034 
<52> Leuchter Report, p. 10 
<53> Zundel, pp. 9028, 9034 
<68> Memorandum from Ed Carnes, Alabama Assistant Attorney General, to
all Capital Punishment States July 20,1990 (hereafter cited as Carnes);
Shapiro "Truth Prevails" pp. 17 and 21; Newsweek, Oct. 22, 1990, p. 64;
Swampscott Journal, Nov. 1, 1990. 
<69> Associated Press, Oct. 24, 1990. 
<70> Carnes, Op.Cit., 2 
<71> Shapiro, "Truth Prevails", p.22. 

Work Cited 

Lipstadt, Deborah. Denying The Holocaust. New York: Macmillan, 1993.
Toronto: Maxwell MacMillan Canada. ISBN: 0-02-919235-8


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:04 EST 2001
Article: 874774 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Deniers - where is the evidence?
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:20:11 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 793
Message-ID: <170320011020116065%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com> <090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <1nxs6.4$Jp4.195905@news1.i1.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984817213 545 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 08:20:13 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 08:20:13 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874774 soc.culture.usa:609268 soc.culture.canada:260002

In article <1nxs6.4$Jp4.195905@news1.i1.net>, Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > In article <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com>, Dakota Boy
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
> > include:
> > 1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
> > 2. The traces of human remains found during the geological exaination
> > of the Auschwitz camp.
> > 3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventialtion
> > systems of the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek.
> 
>   Here is part of the Leuchter Report:

The Leuchter Report has been thoroughly debunked as pseudo-scientific
hogwash produced by an incompetent fool.

Here is some information about the methodological errors in Leuchter's
pseudo-scientific hogwash:

Methodological error 1:
>      "Thirty-one samples 

Leuchter took core samples, when he should have taken scraping samples.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 2:
> were selectively removed from the alleged gas
> chambers at Kremas I, II, III, IV and V.

Krema I is a partial restoration and has undegone extensive
modification since it served as a gas chamber. Kremas II and III have
been exposed to the elements for the past 56 years, including extended
times partially submerged in water. Kremas IV and V exist only as
building foundations. Leuchter did not contact the Auschwitz Museum
officials and thus did not have access to the blueprints showing
precisely where the gas chambers, relatively small, were located in
these relatively large structures. His use of the word "selectively" is
thus a cover word for "from places that I was able to gain access to",
since the sample collection (in this case vandalism) was done illegally
and without the proper architectural and historical documents.

******************************************************************

Methodological error 3:
> A control sample was taken from delousing facility #1 at Birkenau.

His control sample is biased. If his objective was to detect and
measure cyanide compounds, his control sample should have been as free
as possible from such compounds and have been taken from a place that,
as far as is known, was never exposed to cyanide.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 4:
> The control sample was removed from a
> delousing chamber in a location where cyanide was known to have been used
> and was apparently present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the control
> sample #32  showed a cyanide content of 1050 mg/kg, a very heavy
> concentration.

Leuchter, who revealed at the Zündel trial that he has no understanding
of the different manners in which cyanide affects insects as opposed to
humans, did not understand that it takes higher concentrations of HCN
(approx. 16,000 ppm vs. 300 ppm) maintained over a much longer period
of time (20 hours vs. 15 minutes) to kill vermin than it does to kill
people (for details cf.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#iii).
******************************************************************

Methodological error 5:
> The conditions at areas from which these samples were taken
> are identical with those of the control sample, cold, dark, and wet.

The delousing chamber had not been exposed to the elements since 1944,
while Kremas II through V had been, this meaning that the conditions
for the decomposiiton of possible cyanide compounds were radically
different for the control sample as opposed to those taken from the gas
chamber sites.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 6:
> Only
> Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect  that these locations had sunlight
> (the buildings have been torn down) and sunlight may hasten the destruction
> of uncomplexed cyanide. 

Kremas II, III, IV, and V, each in their own way, had been exposed to
the elements. The cindiitons in them were thus radically diferent from
those of either the delousing chambers or Krema I.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 7:

> The cyanide combines with the iron in the mortar and
> brick and becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide or prussian blue pigmentation, a very
> stable iron-cyanide complex.

Stable, but soluble in connection with continued contact with water.
The ruins of Kremas II and III, as well as the foundations of Kremas IV
and V have all been in contact with water, sometimes being submerged
weeks at a time, since 1944. The delousing chamber and Krema I have not
been subjected to water.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 8:

>      "The locations from which the analyzed samples were removed are set out
> in Table III.
>      "It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that the
> few that were positive were very close to the detection level (1mg/kg); 6.7
> mg/kg at Krema III; 7.9 mg/kg at Krerma I. 

Leuchter, not understanding that the concentrations of HCN needed to
kill people need be no higher than 300 ppm does not understand that,
his methodological errors notwithstanding, these figures are consistent
with the structures in question having been used as homicidal gas
chambers.
******************************************************************

Methodological error 9:

> The absense of any consequential
> readings at any of the tested locations as compared to the control sample
> reading 1050 mg/kg supports the evidence that these facilities were not
> execution gas chambers. The small quantities detected would indicate that at
> some point these buildings were deloused with Zyklon B - as were all the
> buildings at all these facilities"

One would expect the delousing chamber to have a much higher reading
than the former gas chamber on the basis of both the concentration and
timeframe needed to kill vermin as opposed to insects, as well as on
the basis of the different histories of the structures in question
since 1944. The claim about the traces of Zyklon B at the Kremas
resulting from all the buildings having been deloused at one time with
Zyklon B is also in contradiction with the conclusion that many of the
readings were negative. If all the buildings had been deloused, we
would expect more consistent minimal readings. If, on the other hand,
portions of Kremas II and III had been used as gas chambers, while
others had not, we would expect readings more in accordance with what
Leuchter found.

******************************************************************

Here is a section from Richard J. Green's critique of the Leuchter
report (source:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#v) showing that
it is pseudo-scientific hogwash:


V. A Critique of the Forensic Reports 

This section will examine the validity of claims made by the deniers as
well as further elucidating the significance of the findings of the
IFRC researchers. Some of the claims made in the reports of the deniers
are not directly relevant to the chemistry of Auschwitz- Birkenau.
Nevertheless, a few of these arguments are so pervasive and so easily
exposed as specious that they merit a brief discussion. The claims that
do involve the chemistry of Auschwitz-Birkenau are divided into two
categories: 1) claims of the impossibility of gassing, 2) claims that
chemical analyses of forensic samples prove that no gassings could have
taken place. For the most part, I will not address claims involving
other camps at this time; I will also not address claims concerning the
cremation furnaces and the cremation in ditches. These issues deserve a
more complete treatment on their own. 

The deniers like to play the numbers game. They state that it is
impossible for 6 million people to have been killed in gas chambers at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. They are quite right: the death toll at Auschwitz
is closer to 1 million. The others murdered in the Final Solution were
killed in other camps, ghettos, as a result of the Einsatzgruppen
mobile killing squads, by death marches and other means. 59 

Nevertheless, Leuchter underestimates the capacity of
Auschwitz-Birkenau. Leuchter's assumptions about the capacity for
murder of the gas chambers assume that the people could occupy the gas
chambers at a density of maximum 1 person per 9 square feet (!!) and
that it would take a week (!!) to ventilate the gas chambers before
they could be used for another mass execution. These assumptions are
absurd. 60 

Deniers also like to take credit for debunking the incorrect claims of
the Soviets that 4 million were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Unfortunately for them, it was the respectable historians who provided
the evidence for more accurate numbers. They also make the false claim
that this change in the death toll of Auschwitz-Birkenau should
drastically reduce the death toll of the final solution. This argument
has been thoroughly discredited elsewhere. 61 

Another claim is to echo Faurisson's notorious statement, "No vents, no
holocaust." Air photos are supposed to show that vents in Krema II that
were used, according to eyewitness testimony, to introduce Zyklon B in
the gas chamber, were forged by the CIA or other unspecified
conspirators. Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic Magazine, writes: 

Thanks to Dr. Nevin Bryant, supervisor of cartographic applications and
image processing applications at Caltech/NASA's Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in Pasadena, California, I was able to get the CIA
photographs properly analyzed by people who know what they are looking
at from the air. Nevin and I analyzed the photographs using digital
enhancement techniques not available to the CIA in 1979. We were able
to prove that the photographs had not been tampered with, and we indeed
found evidence of extermination activity. 62 


Shermer reproduces a 1944 aerial photo of Krema II (figure 23) and a
1942 picture taken from the ground (figure 24). 


The aerial photograph in figure 23 shows the distinctive features of
Krema II. Note the long shadow from the crematorium chimney and, on the
roof of the adjacent gas chamber at right angles to the crematorium
building, note the four staggered shadows. [Holocaust denier, John C.]
Ball claims these shadows were drawn in, but four small structures that
match the shadows are visible on the roof of the gas chamber in figure
24, a picture taken by an SS photographer of the back of Krema II... 63



John Ball, at least, seems to be aware that his claims do not stand up.
He offered on his web page a $100,000 for anyone who could get three
air photo experts to disagree with the accuracy of his claims. When
John Morris inquired about accepting Ball's offer, Ball did not respond
even though Morris made every effort to communicate his interest.
Details are available on the Nizkor website. 64 

The primary claims made by the deniers concerning the supposed
impossibility of gassing with Zyklon B center on the rate of
evaporation of HCN from Zyklon B. It evaporates too slowly, they claim,
so that either it will not kill as fast as is claimed, or alternatively
it will be too dangerous to the operators of the gas chambers. Lüftl
writes: 


Hydrocyanic acid vapors are not released immediately after the cans are
opened. The evaporation of Zyklon B requires as many as 32 hours or as
few as six hours, depending on whether the ambient temperature ranges
>from five to 30 degrees Celsius. The evaporation rate is not exactly
proportional to time. 65 


Jamie McCarthy has addressed this claim: 


[Lüftl] ripped those figures from their context and cited them
dishonestly. The "six to 32 hours" figure comes from the Degesch
manual, but it refers only to the total exposure time required for
lice. Since the metabolism of lice, like all cold-blooded creatures, is
much slower at 5 C than at 30 C, the exposure time is necessarily
longer. 66 


In other words, Lüftl is mixing apples and oranges. The times he quotes
have nothing to do with the release time from Zyklon B. They have to do
with the necessary fumigation times to kill lice. In answer to a
criticism of the Leuchter Report that human body heat would be
sufficient to raise the temperature to the "temperature of evaporation"
of HCN Lüftl responds: 


Like so many Holocaust writers, Auerbach is mistaken. An experiment was
carried out by this writer to simulate the heating of a chamber by
human beings... 

The chamber took an hour to heat using an 1.8 Kw electric convection
heater, after which the room was "ventilated" for 30 minutes... 

Even [in a room] with people "tightly packed crushed together," an air
temperature in excess of 30-32 degrees Celsius would not be attained.
In addition, the gassings are supposed to have taken place quickly and
on a quasi- industrial basis. 67 


This simulation would be a comedy of errors were it not in the service
of denying a tragedy of barely imaginable proportions. First of all,
1.8 kW is roughly equivalent to the heat output of 18 people, far fewer
than would have been in the 5.43 square meters of floor space in the
simulation. Secondly, and more importantly, it is not at all necessary
to come near (or over!) the boiling point of HCN for it to evaporate
rapidly. The boiling point of a liquid is the temperature at which its
equilibrium vapor pressure is equal to the pressure of the atmosphere.
Below the boiling point the vapor pressure of a liquid can be quite
large. HCN has an extremely high vapor pressure even at very cold
temperatures. Anyone who doubts this fact should obtain some diethyl
ether, open a small amount, and observe it evaporating. Ether boils at
34.6 Celsius; in other words its boiling point is greater than HCN. 68 

This discussion is worthwhile because it shows how the deniers play on
the public's relative ignorance on such technical details. The
argument, however, is moot because Gerhard Peters, who was the general
director of Degesch, the company that sold Zyklon B has written a book
on the topic, in which he gives the evaporation times of Zyklon B. 69
Ulrich Roessler translates: 


The development of the gas from the Zyklon sets in with great vehemence
immediately following the pouring out of it. The thinner the layer of
the disseminated support material the faster will be the development of
the gas. Depending on the species of the pests to be controlled, and on
the characteristic of the rooms to be gassed, one may choose to reach
the maximum of the gas concentration to arise very quickly or more
slowly by the thickness of the disseminated layer. Usually, the
material will be disseminated in a layer of 1/2 to 1cm thickness, then
the greatest part [der gröste Teil] of the HCN will have developed
already after half an hour at normal temperature. [i.e. 20 degree C].
70 


Roessler comments further: 


Now, der gröste Teil der Blausäure is by no means only 50% - it means
rather nearly all of the HCN. 71 


Even at -10 C Peters states that the evaporation is essentially
complete in 1 hour with an upper bound for complete evaporation of 2
hours. 72 

These facts should not be taken to mean that gassing with Zyklon B was
100% safe. Kremas II and III were equipped with ventilation systems;
the gas chambers in Kremas IV and V were built above ground to allow
natural ventilation. Pressac in the quote near the beginning of this
article states: 


the Sonderkommandos wore gas masks as a precaution. 73 


If the Nazis and their accomplices were smart enough to handle the
hazards of Zyklon B for delousing purposes, it is reasonable to suppose
that they were smart enough to handle those hazards when committing
murder. In Nizkor's Leuchter FAQ, another spurious objection is
answered swiftly and accurately: 


2.09 If the gas chambers were ventilated, the gas would kill people
outside. 

Nonsense; it is all a question of concentration. Once the gas is
released into the atmosphere, its concentration drops and it is no
longer dangerous. Also, HCN dissipates quickly. The execution gas
chambers in US prisons are also ventilated directly into the
atmosphere. Furthermore, if this argument would hold for the
extermination chambers, it would hold for the delousing chambers as
well, and one would have to conclude that no delousing chambers existed
either. 74 


Another claim is refuted merely by reference to the Merck Index. In
order to be explosive HCN requires a concentration of 6% (60,000 ppm).
75 There is simply no reason to add enough Zyklon B to allow such a
concentration to build up. 

In considering the forensic measurements, I will make the not
necessarily warranted assumptions that Rudolf and Leuchter can be
trusted to have handled their samples carefully and honestly. What they
claim to measure is a large discrepancy between the levels of cyanide
in the blue-stained delousing chambers compared to the homicidal gas
chambers that do not have obvious staining in Auschwitz-Birkenau (the
Majdanek chamber is an interesting exception that deserves some comment
below). 

These measurements are essentially meaningless. The information content
is not more than the fact that some of the delousing chambers have
blue-staining and the homicidal chambers do not. 

There are three conceivable explanations for this difference. 


1. The presence of Prussian-blue staining is a necessary consequence of
exposure to HCN and the fact that it is not present in the homicidal
chambers proves they were not used for homicidal gassing. 
2. The Prussian-blue staining is present for reasons having nothing to
do with the exposure to HCN. For example Bailer has suggested it may be
a pigment from paint. 76 

3. The Prussian-blue staining indeed owes its presence to exposure to
HCN, but the conditions under which it formed were not universally
present in all facilities exposed to HCN. The rate of Prussian-blue
formation may be very different under the conditions used in homicidal
chamber versus the conditions in delousing chambers. 
Answer number one is, of course, untenable. We know that homicidal
gassings occurred from historical evidence independently of the
chemistry involved. Nevertheless, I will suspend my disbelief for a
moment. If the lack of Prussian blue is supposed to prove that no
gassing took place, possibilities 2 and 3 must be disproven. If it is
not possible to do so, then the impossibility of gassings at the Kremas
has not been shown. 

My article on Prussian blue discusses some of the issues involved in
its possible formation. 77 The iron in Prussian blue exists in two
oxidation states Fe(II) and Fe(III) (the Roman numeral in parenthesis
denotes the formal positive charge on iron). The significant question
is how the Fe(III) present in construction materials forms Fe(II). Such
a process is called reduction and requires a reducing agent, viz.,
something that gets oxidized when Fe(III) gets reduced. (Oxidation
means the formal loss of electrons, i.e., negative charge, whereas
reduction means the gain of electrons.) 

Bailer could not think of a possible reducing agent and looked
elsewhere for a reason for the Prussian blue stains. 78 I consider his
explanation unlikely but not disproven. 

Rudolf has suggested HCN acts as the reducing agent, 79 and that
suggestion is possible. I have shown that if Rudolf's explanation for
the presence of Prussian blue in the delousing chambers is correct that
its formation in the gas chambers would have been unlikely at best. 80
Alich et al. have shown that this method of Prussian blue formation is
extremely sensitive to concentrations, pH, presence of water, and the
presence of Fe (III) that is already complexed with cyanide.81 It
should be mentioned that Rudolf tried and failed to produce Prussian
blue. 82 

The difficult part comes into play in understanding the kinetics of how
Prussian blue forms. How fast does it form and under what conditions?
The exposure conditions of the delousing chambers and the homicidal gas
chambers were quite different, if the Degesch directions for delousing
were followed. The walls in the delousing chambers may have been
exposed to HCN for over 20 hours at a time at levels up to 16,000 ppm.
Additionally, the amount of water present, the amount of carbon dioxide
present (from humans exhaling) and the temperature are crucial to
understanding the differences. I suspect that the kinetics are too
difficult to model without resort to experiment. In order to prove his
thesis, Rudolf must demonstrate that it is necessary for Prussian blue
to form under the conditions employed in the homicidal gas chambers. 

The control used in the measurements of Leuchter and Rudolf is biased.
They contain Prussian blue as the major form of cyanide and the
kinetics of Prussian blue formation are far from obvious. Cyanide
residues, not in the form of Prussian blue are far more susceptible to
weathering away. The IFRC researchers experimented with exposing
building materials to HCN and found that the cyanides were easily
removed with exposure to water. 83 The samples that they found
containing cyanides from the Kremas were carefully taken from places in
the chambers that were as sheltered from the elements as possible. 84
Leuchter and Rudolf, collecting their samples illegally could not
afford that luxury. 

The IFRC being aware of the problems using a biased control containing
Prussian blue used a method that discriminated against such compounds
that only measure other cyanides present. The IFRC found traces of
cyanide at levels significantly above background in all 5 Kremas as
well as bunker 11. They also measure concentrations in bath-house B1-A
in Birkenau, which was used for delousing prisoners' clothing. Samples
>from the bath house did indeed have higher concentrations of cyanides,
but it is not the case that every sample from the bath-house had higher
concentrations than every sample in the Kremas. For example, sample
number 25 from Krema II had measurements of 640,592, and 620 ug/kg.
Sample 46 from Krema V had measurements of 244, 248, and 232 ug/kg. In
contrast sample 53 from the bath-house camp B1-A in Birkenau had
measurements of 24, 20, and 24 ug/kg. Overall concentrations for the
fumigation chambers ranged from 0-900 ug/kg. In the Kremas they ranged
>from 0-640 ug/kg. So it is true that the highest measurements were
higher in fumigation chambers (discriminating against iron blues), but
not by much. There is another important fact. Concentrations in control
samples from dwelling accommodations were 0 +/- 1 ug/kg. In other
words, there is no doubt that the Kremas were exposed to a source of
HCN. If the intent is to prove that the Kremas could not have been
homicidal gas chambers, it has failed. 85 

Before concluding it is worth mentioning the case of the gas chamber at
Majdanek. This chamber has Prussian blue staining. Pressac has
interpreted this fact to mean that delousing must have taken place in
this chamber. 


The red-ochre bricks stained with dark blue were for him [Maître
Jouanneau] material and visible proof of the existence of homicidal gas
chambers. The problem , for there is one, is that the gas chamber
presented all the characteristics of a DELOUSING installation. I am not
saying that it was never used to kill people, for that is still
possible, but the traces of Prussian blue are an absolutely certain
indication of use for delousing purposes.... 86 


Pressac believes that the presence of Prussian blue proves that the
chamber was used for delousing. Whereas he does not view Prussian blue
as proof that the chamber was not used for homicidal purposes, he
implies that homicidal purposes alone would not produce Prussian blue. 

Happy to be logically inconsistent as long as they can spread a bit of
confusion to obfuscate the truth, at least one denier has claimed on
the basis of Pressac's statement that the chamber in question was only
a delousing chamber. 

I am not yet convinced of Pressac's reasoning. I do not think it is
obvious that homicidal gassing can never produce Prussian blue stains,
and I would suggest that a counterassertion demands the same kinetic
arguments that the deniers are unable to produce. 


FOOTNOTES:
Hilberg, op. cit. 

60.   McVay, op. cit. 

61.   Harmon, "Four million," op. cit. 

62.   Michael Shermer, Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience,
Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time, New York: W.H. Freeman
and Company, 1997, p. 233. 

63.   Ibid. 

64.   John Morris, "The Ball Challenge. Where is John Ball?",
http://www.nizkor.org/features/ball-challenge/ 

65.   Lüftl op. cit. 

66.   Jamie McCarthy, alt.revisionism, Subject: Lueftl's dishonesty and
cross-linking Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:13:01 -0400 Message-ID:
Available at
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/luftl.walter/evaporation-measurem
ent-lie 

67.   Lüftl op. cit. 

68.   Pitch Block, appendix, "Zyklon B" in Pierre Vidal-Naquet,
Assasins of Memory, Essays on the Denial of the Holocaust, New York,
Columbia University Press, 1992 p. 61. 

69.   Gerhard Peters: Blausäure zur Schädlingsbekämpfung (=Sammlung
chem. und chem.-techn. Vorträge; N.F. 20) Verlag von Ferdinand Enke,
Stuttgart 1933, p. 64f. Available on the web at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/peters-1933/ 

70.   Ulrich Roessler, alt.revisionism, Sat Dec 9 17:35:51 PST 1995
Subject: Re: Luftl's 'Report' Again (Re: Comments and Questions to Ulri
Message-ID: <4aclps$9cr@gwdu19.gwdg.de> Available at
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/rudolf.germar/rudolf-report.001 

71.   Ibid. 

72.   G. Peters and W. Rasch, Die Einsatzfähigkeit der
Blausäure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen.Zeitschrift f"ur
hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung, 11 (1941) pp. 133ff.
Available on the web at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/peters-rasch-1941/. 

73.   Pressac, Anatomy op. cit. 

74.   McVay, op. cit. 

75.   Budavari, op. cit. 

76.   J. Bailer, Amoklauf gegen die Wirklichkeit. Praca zbiorowa (B.
Gallanda, J. Bailer, F. Freund, T. Geisler, W. Lasek, N. Neugebauer, G.
Spenn, W. Wegner). Bundesministerium fuer Unterricht und Kultur Wien
1991. 

77.   Green, op. cit. 

78.   Bailer, op. cit. 

79.   Rudolf, op. cit. 

80.   Green, op. cit. 

81.   M.A. Alich, D.T. Howarth, M.F. Johnson, J. Inorg. Nucl.Chem.
1967, 29, pp. 1637-1642.. 

82.   Rudolf, op. cit. 

83.   Markiewicz, op. cit. 

84.   Ibid. 

85.   Ibid. 

86.   Pressac, Technique, op. cit., p. 555. 

*********************************************************

Here is some information on Leuchter's incompetence and foolishness:

Lipstadt Takes On Leuchter
via Nizkor

The Denier crowd often claims they've presented some "irrefutable"
answer to mainstream historians or that the same historians refuse to
answer their "analysis." These claims are false. 

Lipstadt discusses the demolition of Fred Leuchter's qualifications as
an
"expert" at the trial of Zündel: 

"With the jury out of the room, the court began to determine Leuchter's
qualifications as an expert witness. When the Crown Counsel questioned
him about his training in math, chemistry, physics, and toxicology, he
acknowledged that his only training in chemistry was "basic ...on the
college level." The only physics he had studied likewise consisted of
two courses taken when he was sutdying for a bachelor of arts (not
sciences) degree at Boston University. Admitting that he was not a
toxicologist and had no degree in engineering, he rather cavalierly
dismissed the need for it.<36> To this the judge responded sharply: 

THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don't have an
engineering degree? 

THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering
degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required
background training both on the college level and in the field to
perform my function as an engineer. 

THE COURT: Who determines that? You?<37> 

Throughout the trial [the judge] made it clear that he was appalled by
Leuchter's lack of training as an engineer as well as his depreciation
of the need for such training. The judge was particularly taken aback
by
Leuchter's repeated assertions that anyone who went to college had "the
necessary math and science" to be an electrical engineer and to conduct
the tests that he conducted at Auschwitz.<38> The judge ruled that
Leuchter could not serve as an expert witness on the construction and
functioning of the gas chambers. The judge's findings as to Leuchter's
suitability to comment on questions of engineering was unequivocal: 

THE COURT: I'm not going to have him get into the question of what's in
a brick, what's in iron, what is in - he has no expertise in this area.
He is an engineer because he has made himself an engineer in a very
limited area.<39> 

Unknown to the court, Leuchter, who admitted under oath that he had
only a bachelor of arts degree, was not being entirely candid regarding
his education. Implying that an engineering degree had been unavailable
to him, he told the court that when he was a student at Boston
University, the school did not offer a degree in engineering. In fact
it did, three different kinds.<40> Later in the trial, when the jury
returned to the room, Zündel's lawyer and Leuchter obfuscated the
paucity of his training: 

Q. And you are, I understand, a graduate of Boston University, with a
B.A. in a field that entitles you to function as an engineer. Is that
right? 

A. Yes, sir.<41> 

That field was history. 

Leuchter was also less than candid about his methodology. He repeatedly
asserted that he obtained the "bulk" of his research material on the
camps
- including maps, floor plans and "original blueprints" for the
crematoria
- from the official archives at Auschwitz/Birkenau and Majdanek. He
testified that these drawings and blueprints played a far more important
role in shaping his conclusions than the samples he collected at the
camp.<42> After the trial Kazimierz Smolen, the director of the
Auschwitz museum, unequivocally denied that Leuchter had received any
plans or blueprints from the museum.<43> He may have procured tourist
materials sold in the official souvenir kiosks in the camps.... 

... 

As citations from Leuchter's report were read, the judge's impatience
intensified. He characterized Leuchter's methodology as 'ridiculous' and
'preposterous.'<46> Ruling that 'this report is not going to be filed,'
the judge dismissed many of his conclusions as based on 'second-hand
information.' He refused to allow Leuchter to testify about the impact
of Zyklon-B on humans because he was neither a toxicologist nor a
chemist and had never worked with the gas.<47> Again and again the
judge kept coming back to Leuchter's capabilities and credibility: 

THE COURT: His opinion on this report is that there were never any
gassings or there was never any extermination carried on in this
facility. As far as I am concerned, from what I have heard, he is not
capable of giving that opinion.... He is not in a position to say, as
he said so sweepingly in this report, what could not have been carried
on in these facilities.<48> 

On the question of the functioning of the crematoria, despite the
defense attorney's opposition, the judge's decision was unequivocal. He
could not testify on this topic for a simple reason. 

THE COURT: He hasn't any expertise.<49> 

The judge might have been even more irritated had he known that Leuchter
misrepresented the extent of his familiarity with the operation of
hydrogen cyanide. He told the court that he had discussed matters
relating to the gas with the largest U.S. manufacturer of sodium
cyanide and hydrogen cyanide, Du Pont, and that such consultation was
'an on-going thing.' Leuchter was again being less than accurate. He
may have obtained Du Pont's published guidelines about the care needed
in using hydrogen cyanide or any other of the myriad of substances the
company manufactured. But Du Pont, denying Leuchter's claims of ongoing
consultations, stated that it had 'never provided any information on
cyanides to persons representing themselves as Holocaust deniers,
including Fred Leuchter. Specifically, Du Pont has never provided any
information regarding the use of cyanide at Auschwitz, Birkenau, or
Majdanek. <50> 

But it was not only Leuchter's scientific expertise, or lack thereof,
which was questioned by the court. The judge also expressed serious
doubts about Leuchter's historical knowledge, which, as it emerged at
the trial, was limited and often flawed. Leuchter was unaware of a host
of documents pertaining to the installation and construction of the gas
chambers and crematoria. He did not know of a report filed in June 1943
by the Waffen-SS commandant of construction at Auschwitz on the
completion of the crematoria. The report indicated that the five
crematoria had a total twenty-four-hour capacity of 4,756 bodies.<51>
Leuchter had stated that the crematoria had a total capacity of 156
bodies in the same period of time.
<52> Even if the SS's calculation was overly 'optimistic,' the
difference between it and Leuchter's was staggering. He also had to
admit that he did not know that there existed correspondence and
documentation regarding powerful ventilators installed in the gas
chambers to extract the gas that remained after the killings. After
hearing these and other admissions by Leuchter, Judge Thomas expressed
his dismay that Leuchter had reached his conclusions despite the fact
that he had only a 'nodding acquaintance' with the history of the gas
chambers. To suggest that he had any more than that,
the judge declared, would be an insult.<53>" (Lipstadt, 164-167) 

Even in history, the field in which Fred Leuchter gained his degree, it
seems he lacks expertise. As an engineer, he is clearly unqualified to
submit opinions to the court or anyone else. 

... and regarding Leuchter's shakedown scam: 

"On July 20,1990, Alabama Assistant Attorney General Ed Carnes sent a
memo to all capital-punishment states questioning Leuchter's
credentials and credibility. Carnes stated that not only were
Leuchter's views on the gas-chamber process "unorthodox" but that he
was running a shakedown scheme. If a state refused to use his services,
Leuchter would testify at the last minute on behalf of the inmate,
claiming that the state's gas chamber might malfunction <68>. According
to Carnes, Leuchter made 'money on both sides of the fence' <69>.
Describing Leuchter's behavior in Virginia, Florida, and Alabama,
Carnes observed that in less than thirty days Leuchter had testified in
three states that their electric-chair technology was too old and
unreliable to be used. In Florida and Virginia the federal courts had
rejected Leuchter's testimony as unreliable. In Florida the court had
found that Leuchter had 'misquoted the statements' contained in an
important affidavit and had 'inaccurately surmised' a crucial premise
of his conclusion <70>. In Virginia, Leuchter provided a death-row
inmate's attorney with an affidavit claiming the electric chair
would fail. The Virginia court decided the credibility of Leuchter's
affidavit was limited because Leuchter was 'the refused contractor who
bid to replace the electrodes in the Virginia chair'<71>." (Lipstadt,
170) 

Lipstadt's Footnotes: 

<36> Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario,
1988 (hereafter referred to as Zundel), pp.8962, 8969, 8972, 8978 
<37> Ibid., p. 8973 
<38> See testimony of Raul Hilberg at the first Zundel trial. Her
Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zundel, District Court of Ontario, 1985, p.
1112; Zundel, 1988, pp. 9010, 9011, 9013. 
<39> Zundel, p. 9048 
<40> Shelly Shapiro, "An Investigation," in _Truth Prevails: Demolishing
Holocaust Denial: The End of "The Leuchter Report"_ ed. Shelly Shapiro
(New York, 1990), p. 14; Arthur Goodman, "Leuchter: Exposed and
Discredited by the Court," in Shapiro, "Truth Prevails," p. 78 
<41> Zundel, p. 9056 
<42> Ibid., pp. 8984, 9017, 9061, 9097, 9125, 9154, 9210, 9223 
<43> Shapiro, "Truth Prevails," p. 56 
<44> Zundel, pp. 8894-95 
<45> Ibid., p. 8983 
<46> Ibid., pp. 9052-53 
<47> Ibid., pp. 9034-9038 
<48> Ibid., pp. 9049-50 
<49> Ibid., pp. 8976, 9052 
<50> Ibid., p. 8951; Statement by E.I. DuPont de Nemours & Company,
Oct. 2,
1990, cited in Shapiro, p. 28 
<51> Zundel, pp. 9028-9034 
<52> Leuchter Report, p. 10 
<53> Zundel, pp. 9028, 9034 
<68> Memorandum from Ed Carnes, Alabama Assistant Attorney General, to
all Capital Punishment States July 20,1990 (hereafter cited as Carnes);
Shapiro "Truth Prevails" pp. 17 and 21; Newsweek, Oct. 22, 1990, p. 64;
Swampscott Journal, Nov. 1, 1990. 
<69> Associated Press, Oct. 24, 1990. 
<70> Carnes, Op.Cit., 2 
<71> Shapiro, "Truth Prevails", p.22. 

Work Cited 

Lipstadt, Deborah. Denying The Holocaust. New York: Macmillan, 1993.
Toronto: Maxwell MacMillan Canada. ISBN: 0-02-919235-8 


********************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:04 EST 2001
Article: 874777 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Fuehrer Euthanasia Authorization
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:32:57 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 267
Message-ID: <170320011132578620%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <8g+vOg9orqTq+6NDilivDazpfks=@4ax.com> <3AB08489.6106FB0D@softhome.net> <150320011217574178%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB1DFB5.3F9A86BB@richards.net> <160320011534179302%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB3167D.9CF09F31@richards.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984821577 3911 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 09:32:57 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 09:32:57 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874777 alt.politics.white-power:522341 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507653 alt.flame.niggers:434620

In article <3AB3167D.9CF09F31@richards.net>, Carol Richards
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3AB1DFB5.3F9A86BB@richards.net>, Carol Richards
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Show us the written Fuhrer authorization or shut up. You propagandists
> > > first
> > > make a post about Fuhrer authorizations, then when asked to provide the
> > > most
> > > essential one for the Holohoax, you come with smoke and mirrors instead!
> > > blah,
> > > blah, blah
> > >
> >
> > Unlike you, I am not a propagandist, but rather am working with extant
> > historical evidence.
> 
> Not a propagandist? Then why do you make the same silly post 3 times? To take
> up
> band width with your spam, that's why!

You are ignorant of history as well as of the manner in which
historical research is done. You can't just demand a certain document
as proof of the historicity a specific event or policy. You have to
work with the evidence available to conclude what, most probably, did
or did not happen. There is no written Führerbefehl to kill the Jews of
Europe even though there is ample evidence that such an order was
issued orally to Himmler and Heyrich, and through them, once again
orally, to the Einsatzgruppen. There is abundant documentation
indicating that the killing of Jews and other "racially inferior
elements" in Europe was characterized by systematicity and
goal-orientedness and cloaked in disinformation.

There is also the undeniable and damning fact that more than ten years
before Hitler gained power he had stated quite clearly, grotesquely,
and publicly that his foremost on his policy agenda was the
annihilation of the Jews:

Source: http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/annihilation.html


In 1922 Joseph Hell asked Hitler, "What do you want to do to the Jews
once you have full descretionary powers?" (1) Hitler, who until then
had spoken calmy and with measured words, underwent a total
transformation:

"His eyes no longer saw me but instead bore past me and off into empty
space; his explanation grew increasingly voluble until he fell into a
kind of paroxysm that ended with his shouting, as if to a whole public
gathering:

'Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the
annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will
have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example
- as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged
indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they
will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as
they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down
the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other
cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany
has been completely cleansed of Jews.' "


(1) Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institut für
Zeitgeschichte. The retired Major Josef Hell was a journalist in the
twenties and in the beginning of the thirties, during which time he
also collaborated with Dr. Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the weekly
newspaper Der Gerade Weg.


Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkely: University of
California Press. 1984. p. 17



Hitler had literally been caught with is pants down for having signed
the euthanasia authorization. Vaguely worded as it was, it still pinned
the ultimate responsibility for the mass murder of almost 100,000
German citizens on him. He was the object of national and international
opprobrium when Archbishop von Galen spoke out against the immorality
of the program in his famous sermon
(http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/galen.htm) of August 3, 1941:

Source: ibid.:




When I learned of the intention to transport patients from Marienthal
in order to kill them, I brought a formal charge at the State Court in
Münster and with the Police President in Münster by means of a
registered letter which read as follows: "According to information
which I have received, in the course of this week a large number of
patients from the Marienthal Provincial Asylum near Münster are to be
transported to the Eichberg asylum as so-called 'unproductive national
comrades' and will then soon be deliberately killed, as is generally
believed has occurred with such transports from other asylums. Since
such an action is not only contrary to the moral laws of God and Nature
but also is punishable with death as murder under section 211 of the
Penal Code, I hereby bring a charge in accordance with my duty under
section 139 of the Penal Code, and request you to provide immediate
protection for the national comrades threatened in this way by taking
action against those agencies who are intending their removal and
murder, and that you inform me of the steps that have been taken." 

I have received no news concerning intervention by the Prosecutor's
Office or by the police...Thus we must assume that the poor helpless
patients will soon be killed. 

For what reason? 

Not because they have committed a crime worthy of death. Not because
they attacked their nurses or orderlies so that the latter had no other
choice but to use legitimate force to defend their lives against their
attackers. Those are cases where, in addition to the killing of an
armed enemy in a just war, the use of force to the point of killing is
allowed and is often required. 

No, it is not for such reasons that these unfortunate patients must die
but rather because, in the opinion of some department, on the testimony
of some commission, they have become 'worthless life' because according
to this testimony they are 'unproductive national comrades.' The
argument goes: they can no longer produce commodities, they are like an
old machine that no longer works, they are like an old horse which has
become incurably lame, they are like a cow which no longer gives milk. 



The sermon sent a shockwave through the Nazi leadership all the way up
to Hitler. As a result, on August 23, 1941, Hitler suspended Aktion T4
which had accounted for nearly a hundred thousand deaths by this time. 

The Nazis pondered what to do about the Cardinal. They eventually
retaliated by arresting and then beheading three parish priests who had
distributed his sermon, but left the Cardinal unharmed to avoid making
him into a martyr. 

However, the Nazi euthanasia program quietly continued, but without the
widespread gassings. Drugs and starvation were used instead and doctors
were encouraged to decide in favor of death whenever euthanasia was
being considered.


Once bitten, twice shy.

The euthanasia program was a dress rehearsal and trial run for the
Final Solution. As Prof. Ezergailis pointed out in the quote in my
"silly" posting, within the Final Solution the problem of
disinformation and obscuring chains of command was dealt with by using
orally issued general orders and codewords ("special treatment",
"racially inferior elements") when information was flowing in the
top-to-bottom direction. In the opposite direction, from the field to
the command centers to Berlin, on the other hand, we have numerous
documents demonstrating the existence of an organized and systematic
policy to kill the Jews of Europe. These include police records of the
case histories of Jews arrested and ultimately executed in Nazi
occupied Europe solely for the "crime" of being Jews (cf.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ftp.py?places//estonia/usenet.9906),
 as well as detailed military reports such as Stahlecker's two
consolidated reports and the Jäger Report
(http://www.netbistro.com/electriczen/jagerimages.html). Some samples:

Source: http://shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt

----------------------------------------------------------------
                              August  September  October  November   

Prisoners executed
after interrogation            2,100    1,400     1,596     2,731    
 .
 .
Accomplices of guerrilla and
guerrilla suspects executed    1,198    3,020     6,333     3,706    
 .
 .
Jews executed                 31,246   165,282    95,735   70,948
 .
 .
Villages and localities
Burned down or destroyed        35       12         20       92


Letter from SS Major-General Stahlecker to SS General Heydrich, 
January 31, 1942
[The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 233]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The complete removal of Jewry from the eastern territories has been
substantially attained, with the exception of white Russia, as a result
of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews.


Daily situation report of the Einsatzgruppen (special task forces)
in Russia, No. 124, October 25th, 1941
[The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 133]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A second action consisted in applying special treatment to 812 
men and women, all persons without interest from the racial and
intellectual point of view.


Order by Reichskommissar Lohse to halt the killing of Jewish skilled
workers, December 2 1941
[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A.
Margaliot,
NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 396]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reichskommissar for Ostland                 Riga, December 2 1941
IIa diary No. 220/41g

The Chief Quartermaster (Chiefintendant) of the Wehrmacht Command in
Ostland has lodged a complaint that armament plants and repair
workshops have been deprived of Jewish skilled workers through
their liquidation, and that they cannot be replaced there at the
present time.

I request most emphatically that the liquidation of Jews employed
as skilled workers in armament plants and repair workshops of the
Wehrmacht who cannot be replaced by local personnel be prevented.



Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
NY, 1988, p. 67]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Einsatzgruppen C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.


Ereignismlrdung UdSSR, No. 128, November 3 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
NY, 1988, p. 68]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major action
of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were overcome
by the use of posters announcing that all Jews were to report for
resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action would
only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews reported, who
as a result of extremely efficient organization still believed they
were going to be resettled right up until the time they were executed.

Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.


Report from chief of Security Police and SD, June 17 1942
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
Off., 1946, Supplement A, p. 661]
------------------------------------------------------------
  
These are some of the many examples of field reports to headquarters.
Why would such documents be drawn up and submitted if there were not
some need for feedback from the field concerning the implementation of
specific orders?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:04 EST 2001
Article: 874796 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Fuehrer Euthanasia Authorization
Supersedes: <170320011155098738%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:00:44 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 388
Message-ID: <170320011400441925%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <8g+vOg9orqTq+6NDilivDazpfks=@4ax.com> <3AB08489.6106FB0D@softhome.net> <150320011217574178%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB1DFB5.3F9A86BB@richards.net> <160320011534179302%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB3167D.9CF09F31@richards.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984830448 11050 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 12:00:48 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 12:00:48 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874796 alt.politics.white-power:522350 alt.politics.nationalism.white:507661 alt.flame.niggers:434646

In article <3AB3167D.9CF09F31@richards.net>, Carol Richards
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3AB1DFB5.3F9A86BB@richards.net>, Carol Richards
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Show us the written Fuhrer authorization or shut up. You propagandists
> > > first
> > > make a post about Fuhrer authorizations, then when asked to provide the
> > > most
> > > essential one for the Holohoax, you come with smoke and mirrors instead!
> > > blah,
> > > blah, blah
> > >
> >
> > Unlike you, I am not a propagandist, but rather am working with extant
> > historical evidence.
> 
> Not a propagandist? Then why do you make the same silly post 3 times? To take
> up
> band width with your spam, that's why!

You are ignorant of history as well as of the manner in which
historical research is done. You also need to work on your reading
comprehension, since I most emphatically did not make "the same silly
post 3 times". An ignoramus of both facts and methodology with a
reading disability to boot is way out of his/her depth in this forum.

You can't just demand a certain document as proof of the historicity a
specific event or policy. You have to work with the evidence available
to conclude what, most probably, did or did not happen. There is no
written Führerbefehl to kill the Jews of Europe even though there is
ample evidence that such an order was issued orally by the Führer to
Reichsführer SS Himmler and SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, and
through them, once again orally, to the Einsatzgruppen at the Police
Academy in Pretz, Saxony, where they underwent training during the
weeks before June 22, 1941. There is abundant evidence indicating
that the killing of Jews and other "racially inferior elements" in
Europe was characterized by systematicity and goal-orientedness while
cloaked in disinformation:

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/ohlendorf1.htm

Document UK-81

COPY OF AFFIDAVIT B

[Affidavit of Otto Ohlendorf]

Source: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume VIII. USGPO, Washington,
1946/pp.596-603


11. I had about four weeks advance notice of the planned war against
Russia through Heydrich. The Einsatz Groups were staged in Pretz,
Saxony, and vicinity. After designated leaders of the Einsatz Groups
and Einsatz Commandos were gathered at Pretz and were informed of their
tasks on the occasion of the presence of the ,Chief of AMT I of the
RSHA, Streckenbach, by order of Heydrich. In the course of conference,
the Einsatz Groups and Commandos were given also the task of
liquidating in the Russian territories Jewish and Communist
functionaries in addition to the regular tasks of the Security Police
and the SD. According to a communication from Himmler, the Chiefs of
the Army Groups and Armies had been informed by Hitler about this
mission and ordered to aid in its accomplishment. When Himmler in the
late summer of 1941 spoke to the Commanders and men of the Einsatz
Group D and their Commandos in Nikolajev, he repeated this order and
added that neither the leaders nor the men who were to execute the
liquidation would bear responsibility of their own. Rather, he himself,
together with the Fuehrer, would bear the full responsibility for this
order and its execution. The Fuehrer was mentioned almost
parenthetically, whereas Himmler stressed his own responsibility. 

12. The Einsatz Group D marched on or about 21 June 1941 from Duebin,
Saxony, to its readiness position at Piatra Neamst, Rumania, through
Hungary. Upon arrival in Piatra Neamst orders by the 11th Army were
ready for the departure of the first Special Commandos. In northern and
eastern boundary of the Einsatz space of the Einsatz Group D is marked
by the following cities.: Tschernowitz, Mogilew-Podolsk, Jampol,
Ananjew, Niko-lajev, Melitopol, Mariopol, Taganrog, Rostov. The space
expanded to the south to Odessa over Cherson and included all of
Crimea. 

13. During the one year while I was Chief of the Einsatz Group D, the
Einsatz Commandos and Special Commandos reported to have liquidated
90,000 men, women and children. The vast majority of the liquidated
were Jews but there were also some Communist functionaries. It may be
that in connection with liquidations in Simferopol, there were also
gypsies among the liquidated or members of another tribe who were
considered as Jews. The liquidations were executed by the Commandos
within the space into which they had moved in accordance with orders
given them by the Army. For the preparation of liquidations in cities,
leading Jewish inhabitants were as a rule assigned to effect the
registration of the Jews. Upon registration the Jews were gathered at a
place under the pretext that they were to be resettled in another town.
Prior to the liquidations the Jews had to surrender their valuables to
the Commandos. Those selected for liquidation were either driven or led
to the place of execution. The graves were in general either antitank
ditches or natural crevices. In the Einsatz Group D the mass executions
took place regularly in the form of shooting by details. The shooting
by individuals was forbidden in Einsatz Group D, so that the men who
were to perform the executions were not faced with the task of making
personal decisions. The persons designated for liquidation were either
shot while kneeling or standing upright. Only the head of units or
specifically designated persons were permitted to give the coup de
grace to those persons who were not killed at once. These directives
were issued because I learned from members of Einsatz Groups from other
areas that in those areas mass executions were performed by individuals
who shot those persons designated for liquidation through the rear of
the neck while lying or standing upright. With this method emotional
apsets could not be avoided, however, either on the part of the victims
or on the part of those who performed the executions. I, therefore,
disapproved of this method. Immediately prior to the liquidation the
victims had to rid themselves of their outer clothing. The complete
undressing, which was partially customary in other areas, was likewise
forbidden in Einsatz Group D. 

14. Whereas the Army in general did not exert any influence in the
liquidations, the Army had at Simferopol requested acceleration of the
liquidations and rendered corresponding assistance in that it furnished
trucks. Also, the Army officially did not make available liquidation
commandos from its own units, however, almost everywhere individual
execution commandos, for example, of the SHD or OT, participated in the
executions. 




There is also the undeniable and damning fact that more than ten years
before Hitler gained power he had stated quite unambiguously,
grotesquely, and publicly that foremost on his policy agenda was the
annihilation of the Jews:

Source: http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/annihilation.html


In 1922 Joseph Hell asked Hitler, "What do you want to do to the Jews
once you have full descretionary powers?" (1) Hitler, who until then
had spoken calmy and with measured words, underwent a total
transformation:

"His eyes no longer saw me but instead bore past me and off into empty
space; his explanation grew increasingly voluble until he fell into a
kind of paroxysm that ended with his shouting, as if to a whole public
gathering:

'Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the
annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will
have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example
- as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged
indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they
will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as
they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down
the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other
cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany
has been completely cleansed of Jews.' "


(1) Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institut für
Zeitgeschichte. The retired Major Josef Hell was a journalist in the
twenties and in the beginning of the thirties, during which time he
also collaborated with Dr. Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the weekly
newspaper Der Gerade Weg.


Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkely: University of
California Press. 1984. p. 17



Hitler had literally been caught with is pants down for having signed
the euthanasia authorization. Vaguely worded as it was, it still pinned
the ultimate responsibility for the mass murder of almost 100,000
German citizens on him. He was the object of national and international
opprobrium when Archbishop von Galen spoke out against the immorality
of the program in his famous sermon
(http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/galen.htm) of August 3, 1941:

Source: ibid.:




When I learned of the intention to transport patients from Marienthal
in order to kill them, I brought a formal charge at the State Court in
Münster and with the Police President in Münster by means of a
registered letter which read as follows: "According to information
which I have received, in the course of this week a large number of
patients from the Marienthal Provincial Asylum near Münster are to be
transported to the Eichberg asylum as so-called 'unproductive national
comrades' and will then soon be deliberately killed, as is generally
believed has occurred with such transports from other asylums. Since
such an action is not only contrary to the moral laws of God and Nature
but also is punishable with death as murder under section 211 of the
Penal Code, I hereby bring a charge in accordance with my duty under
section 139 of the Penal Code, and request you to provide immediate
protection for the national comrades threatened in this way by taking
action against those agencies who are intending their removal and
murder, and that you inform me of the steps that have been taken." 

I have received no news concerning intervention by the Prosecutor's
Office or by the police...Thus we must assume that the poor helpless
patients will soon be killed. 

For what reason? 

Not because they have committed a crime worthy of death. Not because
they attacked their nurses or orderlies so that the latter had no other
choice but to use legitimate force to defend their lives against their
attackers. Those are cases where, in addition to the killing of an
armed enemy in a just war, the use of force to the point of killing is
allowed and is often required. 

No, it is not for such reasons that these unfortunate patients must die
but rather because, in the opinion of some department, on the testimony
of some commission, they have become 'worthless life' because according
to this testimony they are 'unproductive national comrades.' The
argument goes: they can no longer produce commodities, they are like an
old machine that no longer works, they are like an old horse which has
become incurably lame, they are like a cow which no longer gives milk. 



The sermon sent a shockwave through the Nazi leadership all the way up
to Hitler. As a result, on August 23, 1941, Hitler suspended Aktion T4
which had accounted for nearly a hundred thousand deaths by this time. 

The Nazis pondered what to do about the Cardinal. They eventually
retaliated by arresting and then beheading three parish priests who had
distributed his sermon, but left the Cardinal unharmed to avoid making
him into a martyr. 

However, the Nazi euthanasia program quietly continued, but without the
widespread gassings. Drugs and starvation were used instead and doctors
were encouraged to decide in favor of death whenever euthanasia was
being considered.


Once bitten, twice shy.

The euthanasia program was a dress rehearsal and trial run for the
Final Solution. As Prof. Ezergailis pointed out in the quote in my
"silly" posting, within the Final Solution the problem of
disinformation and obscuring chains of command was dealt with by using
orally issued general orders and codewords ("special treatment",
"racially inferior elements") when information was flowing in the
top-to-bottom direction. In the opposite direction, from the field to
the command centers to Berlin, on the other hand, we have numerous
documents demonstrating the existence of an organized and systematic
policy to kill the Jews of Europe. These include police records of the
case histories of Jews arrested and ultimately executed in Nazi
occupied Europe solely for the "crime" of being Jews (cf.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ftp.py?places//estonia/usenet.9906),



as well as detailed military reports such as Stahlecker's two
consolidated reports and the Jäger Report
(http://www.netbistro.com/electriczen/jagerimages.html). Some samples:

Source: http://shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt


Report No. 51 of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to Hitler about mass 
executions in the east, 1942
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 269-272]
----------------------------------------------------------------
                              August  September  October  November   

Prisoners executed
after interrogation            2,100    1,400     1,596     2,731    
 .
 .
Accomplices of guerrilla and
guerrilla suspects executed    1,198    3,020     6,333     3,706    
 .
 .
Jews executed                 31,246   165,282    95,735   70,948
 .
 .
Villages and localities
Burned down or destroyed        35       12         20       92

************************************************************************



Letter from SS Major-General Stahlecker to SS General Heydrich, 
January 31, 1942
[The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 233]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The complete removal of Jewry from the eastern territories has been
substantially attained, with the exception of white Russia, as a result
of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews.

************************************************************************



Daily situation report of the Einsatzgruppen (special task forces)
in Russia, No. 124, October 25th, 1941
[The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 133]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A second action consisted in applying special treatment to 812 
men and women, all persons without interest from the racial and
intellectual point of view.

************************************************************************



Order by Reichskommissar Lohse to halt the killing of Jewish skilled
workers, December 2 1941
[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A.
Margaliot,
NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 396]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reichskommissar for Ostland                 Riga, December 2 1941
IIa diary No. 220/41g

The Chief Quartermaster (Chiefintendant) of the Wehrmacht Command in
Ostland has lodged a complaint that armament plants and repair
workshops have been deprived of Jewish skilled workers through
their liquidation, and that they cannot be replaced there at the
present time.

I request most emphatically that the liquidation of Jews employed
as skilled workers in armament plants and repair workshops of the
Wehrmacht who cannot be replaced by local personnel be prevented.

************************************************************************



Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
NY, 1988, p. 67]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Einsatzgruppen C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.

************************************************************************



Ereignismlrdung UdSSR, No. 128, November 3 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
NY, 1988, p. 68]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major action
of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were overcome
by the use of posters announcing that all Jews were to report for
resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action would
only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews reported, who
as a result of extremely efficient organization still believed they
were going to be resettled right up until the time they were executed.

Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.

************************************************************************



Report from chief of Security Police and SD, June 17 1942
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
Off., 1946, Supplement A, p. 661]
------------------------------------------------------------
  
These are some of the many examples of field reports to headquarters.
Why would such documents be drawn up and submitted if there were not
some need for feedback from the field concerning the implementation of
specific orders?

************************************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:05 EST 2001
Article: 874801 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Austrian rightist leader sued over anti-Semitic wisecrack
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:46:35 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <170320011446357387%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984833195 13144 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 12:46:35 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 12:46:35 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874801 alt.politics.white-power:522352

Posted for purposes of discussion and information only.
Source:
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/03/16/Austria-Haider.02/index.ht
ml


Austrian far-right leader sued
 
Haider: Facing court case   

March 16, 2001
Web posted at: 2355 GMT

VIENNA, Austria -- A prominent Jewish leader in Austria has sued
controversial far-right politician Joerg Haider. 

Ariel Muzicant is suing after Haider made remarks -- widely seen as
anti-semitic -- at a meeting of the Freedom Party. 

Haider, who led the party into a coalition government in 1999, has
previously praised some of Adolf Hitler's policies and his SS troops. 

Haider poked fun at Muzicant, head of Vienna's Jewish Cultural
Community, in a joke about his first name, which is also the name of a
brand of detergent. 

At the Freedom party meeting Haider remarked: "I don't know how someone
called Ariel, can have so much dirt on his hands." 

Muzicant's lawyer, Gabriel Lansky said: "This lawsuit aims first, to
clear Mr Muzicant's reputation and second to achieve a verdict against
propaganda of any form of racism in Austria." 

Lansky added that an international treaty banning racism was signed by
Austria in 1972 and has the force of a constitutional decree. 

An estimated 6,000 people gathered in the centre of Vienna on Friday
night to protest against the remarks. 

"This demonstration is a very clear reaction to the breaching of taboos
by the far right," said Silvio Lehmann, one of the rally's organisers. 

In a statement read to the protesters Muzicant claimed that "racism and
anti-semitism are once again being used in politics in Austria." 

Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel, who leads the People's Party, described
Haider's comments as 'inappropriate', but did not go as far as saying
they were anti-semitic. 

The inclusion of Haider's party in the government in February 2000 led
to EU sanctions against Austria. 

Haider stepped down as party leader but the party still holds key roles
in the coalition government. The EU sanctions were lifted last
September.


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:06 EST 2001
Article: 874807 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Supersedes: <170320011257464698%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:54:09 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <170320011454094735%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>  <3AAC5AF1.FC164EA5@verizon.net>  <3AAD239E.549277D6@verizon.net>  <3AAD64BC.83F6C37@verizon.net>  <3AAF18E9.95E2FD22@verizon.net> <140320011531004479%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB0FD83.1099902C@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984833650 13604 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 12:54:10 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 12:54:10 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874807

In article <3AB0FD83.1099902C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> To judge a case accurately, one should listen to the arguments of both sides
> for a
> certain amount of time. I feel that, after switching from belief in the
> Holocaust
> to non-belief and after being a non-believer for 10 years, I have heard
> everything
> there possibly is TO hear. Today, I stand convinced that there were no
> deliberate,
> planned mass executions by gassing or by any means at Auschwitz and similar
> centres
> in Poland.

You think the gassings happened by accident, that is to say
non-deliberately?!

> I am not saying that this belief is eternal and I am not saying
> that it
> is immutable; I am saying that, on the basis of those ten years, I cannot
> conceive
> of any new piece of evidence that would shake this view.

You wrote once long ago that it was the Leuchter Report that caused you
to revise your views. Now that the Lechter report has been thoroughly
discredited even by a revisionist personality as prominent as David
Irving - who goes to pains to point out that he is not a Holocaust
Denier, but only a revisionist - what does your continued "non-belief"
in the Holocaust rest on now that basis for your original conversion
has
been shown to be as fraudulant as it is scientifically worthless?

> 
> The Jews' problem is that they are so hopelessly calcified in their own
> righteousness, so hopelessly convinced of the power of the printed word, that
> they
> have lost all sight of just what effect their antics have on ordinary people.
> The
> Jews have overplayed their hand, way way way overplayed it.

The Holocaust was not just a Jewish thing. Gypsies, African-Germans,
Poles, homosexuals, pacifists, and others were also harassed,
sterilized, interned, dispossessed, enslaved, exploited, starved, shot,
hanged, and gassed for the "crime" of being what they were. The Jews
have been the most vociferous because the Holocaust was most clearly
directed at them and they suffered the greatest losses in absolute
human as well as material terms. They are not by a long shot the only
victims.

> Ordinary people are sick of hearing about the fucking Holocaust; so am I.

Ordinary people are sick of hearing about anything which causes them to
think about anything not directly related to their present coordinates
in space and time. That does not mean that issues of morality and
responsibility do not affect them, nor does it mean that slates can be
wiped clean whenever it is convenient from the standpoint of the man
with the eraser.

> Ordinary people are sick of the Jews' moans and wails; so am I. 

And what about your rather considerable and repeated moanings and
wailings about the demise of the good ole' days? The days when men were
men, women were women, and minorities fawningly stayed "in their place"
in the hope that an occasional bone would fall their way.

> Ordinary people are sick of their political manipulations; so am I.  

Jews participate in politics more as individuals than as Jews. For
example, two of my old college chums, the liberal Clintonite William
Galston (http://www.puaf.umd.edu/faculty/facultystaff/galston.html) and
the conservative Paul Wolfowitz
(http://www.sais-jhu.edu/faculty/profiles/wolfowitz.html), an important
behind-the-scenes figure in both Bush administrations, both Jews who
are prominent in national politics, are about as far from each other on
the political spectrum as it is possible to get.

> Ordinary people are sick of their shameless extortioneering; so am I.

Ordinary people who have been wronged generally stick to their guns
until justice is achieved. No matter what your personal beliefs about
the details of the Holocaust are, you do not deny that millions of Jews
that had nothing whatsoever to do with Germany were singled out for
harassment, enslavement, deportation, confiscation of property, and
liquidation by the Nazis in the countries Germany invaded, overran, and
occupied. There is no way on earth that the Jews of Norway, or Estonia,
or Ukraine, or Greece can be blamed for the problems, real or imagined,
that Germany was having with Jews nor were these problems of such a
nature as to justify the continent-wide destruction of Jewish
communities and everyone connected with them:

Source: Source: http://shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt



Ereignismlrdung UdSSR, No. 128, November 3 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
NY, 1988, p. 68]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major action
of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were overcome
by the use of posters announcing that all Jews were to report for
resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action would
only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews reported, who
as a result of extremely efficient organization still believed they
were going to be resettled right up until the time they were executed.

Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.




Your ordinary people don't care about these things, nor do they care
about the fact that women, who do most of the housework, do a lot of
necessary work which is uncompensated for and is not counted towards
their social security, nor do they care about the fact that the
trans-Atlantic slave trade amounted in a massive and violently
implemented transfer of human resources from one continent to the
other, with most of that wealth thus produced being pocket by people
other than those who produced it.

It's nice to be an ordinary person. You can live a day-to-day existence
with the most important problem being whether "muds" are going to move
into the neighborhood, whether the factory production line is going to
be rationalized, or whether your daughter is secretly sleeping with a
moustachioed Moroccan with a ring through his nose. You don't have to
take a stand on questions concerning the demands of hundreds of
thousands of former slave laborers who spent the best years of their
lives as slaves working 100 hour/week jobs for no pay on companies that
pocketed the fruits of their labor minus expenses for minimal room and
board and are now multi-billion dollar multinational concerns.

Closing one's eyes to such problems will not make them go away, nor
will it silence those who were victimized.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:06 EST 2001
Article: 874846 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Austrian rightist leader sued over anti-Semitic wisecrack
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:04:14 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <170320011804145927%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <2184f57e48ec1f600dd785ae99db0d62@anon.xg.nu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984845054 22573 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 16:04:14 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 16:04:14 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874846 alt.politics.white-power:522370

In article <2184f57e48ec1f600dd785ae99db0d62@anon.xg.nu>, Public
 wrote:

>   a black man in a white world,

Šwhich is infinitely more honorable than being a person with a name
posting anonymously, and wasting valuable bandwidth by reposting an
article without adding a word of commentary or analysis.

No regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:06 EST 2001
Article: 874860 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes2.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!scrappy.visi.com.MISMATCH!newsreader.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Deniers - where is the evidence?
Supersedes: <170320011914027815%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:32:41 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 281
Message-ID: <170320012032411610%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AA903C3.C2D89844@yahoo.com> <090320011943498814%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <1nxs6.4$Jp4.195905@news1.i1.net> <170320011020116065%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984853960 29025 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 18:32:40 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 18:32:40 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874860 soc.culture.usa:609407 soc.culture.canada:260046

In article , Alex Vange 
wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:170320011020116065%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> >
> > The Leuchter Report has been thoroughly debunked as pseudo-scientific
> > hogwash produced by an incompetent fool.
> 
>     Naturally that is what the  Jews and other leftists say.

First, Alex, I want to thank you for having been courteous enough to
comment in a reasonable manner on my posting and not just post some
quotes from _Mein Kampf_. I know we disagree on just about everything,
but I appreciate the effort you took to express your viewpoints.

Criticism of the Leuchter report has been raised by the Canadian court
system, the British court system, chemists such as Mr. Green, author of
"The Chemistry of Auschwitz", the Cracow Forensic Institute, and, last
but not least, David Irving himself.


> >
> > Here is some information about the methodological errors in Leuchter's
> > pseudo-scientific hogwash:
> >
> > Methodological error 1:
> > >      "Thirty-one samples
> >
> > Leuchter took core samples, when he should have taken scraping samples.
> 
>     He took the same kind of sample from the delousing chamber. Yet the
> delousing chamber sample had a lot of cyanide while the "gas chamber"
> samples did not.

Nevertheless, some of them had some cyanide, while others did not.
Finding cyanide in some places but not others is inconsistent with
Leuchter's unfounded claim that the cyanide is the result having once
been deloused. Instead, it indicates that cyanide was used in some
parts of the building, but not in others.

> >
> > Methodological error 2:
> > > were selectively removed from the alleged gas
> > > chambers at Kremas I, II, III, IV and V.
> >
> > Krema I is a partial restoration and has undegone extensive
> > modification since it served as a gas chamber.
> 
>    In other words it is a fake.

It is not a fake at all. The building has a complex history. It was
once a morgue, then a gas chamber, then an air-raid shelter, now a
museum with many of the modifications that were made when it was
transformed from a gas chamber to an air-raid shelter removed, and many
of the gas chamber features that had been removed and placed in storage
restored. If it's a "fake", then any object or place which has been
museumified in good faith is a fake. I hope you appreciate the
absurdity of your claim. The bottom line is that gassings did take
place in Krema I, and even Leuchter found traces of HCN compunds there
which are consistent with this claim.


> > Kremas II and III have
> > been exposed to the elements for the past 56 years, including extended
> > times partially submerged in water. Kremas IV and V exist only as
> > building foundations. Leuchter did not contact the Auschwitz Museum
> > officials and thus did not have access to the blueprints showing
> > precisely where the gas chambers, relatively small, were located in
> > these relatively large structures. His use of the word "selectively" is
> > thus a cover word for "from places that I was able to gain access to",
> > since the sample collection (in this case vandalism) was done illegally
> > and without the proper architectural and historical documents.
> >
>      So now the "gas chambers" were "relatively small". At first the
> holocaust believers said there wasn't much cyanide in these rooms because it
> took more cyanide to kill the lice in the delousing chamber than the humans
> in the alledged gas chambers. To this I said that if the Germans were
> gassing the number of Jews they are charged with, then the gas chambers must
> of been operating almost 24/7.

No. We have deportation records and train transport records of the
number of people (not just Jews) being sent to Auschwitz, as well as of
the number of people actually being signed into the camp. Until the
action against Hungarian Jews started in early 1944, the gas chambers
were being used on a regular basis, but nothing close to 24/7. A few
trainlaods of a few thousand a day at most, sometimes fewer, sometiems
more; a few gassings per day in some of the chamber at II and III, and
then later IV and V as well.

> Almost all the time for years and there
> should of been more cyanide on the walls. To this the holo believers said
> that the gas chambers were huge and all those Jews could of been gassed
> without 24/7 and without a heavy concentration of cyanide left on the walls.
> But now we are assured that the "gas chambers" were "relatively small".
> There seems to be a lot of hot air in what the believers are saying.

They were "huge" in the sense that they could accommodate hundreds of
people; they were "relatively small" compared to the entire building of
which they were only a component. A Boeing 747 is a huge airplane, but
it is relatively small compared to the airport at which it lands.


> > Methodological error 3:
> > > A control sample was taken from delousing facility #1 at Birkenau.
> >
> > His control sample is biased. If his objective was to detect and
> > measure cyanide compounds, his control sample should have been as free
> > as possible from such compounds and have been taken from a place that,
> > as far as is known, was never exposed to cyanide.
> 
>      This appears to be nonsense. Is there a reason I should not think so of
> it?

If you have ever done any chemistry you know that when doing
qualitative analysis you select a control that is as free as possible
>from the substance you are looking for.


> > Methodological error 4:
> > > The control sample was removed from a
> > > delousing chamber in a location where cyanide was known to have been
> used
> > > and was apparently present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the
> control
> > > sample #32  showed a cyanide content of 1050 mg/kg, a very heavy
> > > concentration.
> >
> > Leuchter, who revealed at the Zündel trial that he has no understanding
> > of the different manners in which cyanide affects insects as opposed to
> > humans, did not understand that it takes higher concentrations of HCN
> > (approx. 16,000 ppm vs. 300 ppm) maintained over a much longer period
> > of time (20 hours vs. 15 minutes) to kill vermin than it does to kill
> 
>     But if the Germans were gassing as many Jews as we are told then the
> "gas chambers" must have been running almost 24/7 for years. If this was the
> case there would be a lot of cyanide on the walls.

No.

The "as we are told" is not an argument. There are records of the times
when the gas chambers were and were not being used. A gassing involved
the doors being closed for 30 minutes, after which the premises were
ventilated, cleared of bodies, and hosed down to rid the room of the
body fluids that necessarily accompanied an operation of this type. A
delousing involved the doors being closed for 20 hours, after which the
premises were ventilated, but not hosed down. The physiochemistry of
cyanide compound formation is complex, and I am not qualified to speak
about it except for pointing out the obvious fact that: the conditions
for HCN compound formation and retention on:
a) the internal walls of intact structures that were subjected over a
four year period between 60 and 56 years ago to 20 hour periods of
exposure to 16,000 ppm concentrations of HCN followed by a a few hours
of ventilation and then a new load, and
b) the once internal but now long exposed walls that were subjected 30
minute periods of exposure to 300 ppm concentrations of HCN followed by
a brief ventilation and a hosedowm and a considerable interval between
the next load,
are necessarily going to be radically different.

As an analogy, consider the walls of a room at a bar where cigars were
smoked on a continuous basis over several years, after which the room
was sealed and forgotten, as opposed to the walls of a room where
cigarettes were occasionally smoked, after which the room was destroyed
in an earthquake and left to lie in ruins for half a century. 


> > Methodological error 5:
> > > The conditions at areas from which these samples were taken
> > > are identical with those of the control sample, cold, dark, and wet.
> >
> > The delousing chamber had not been exposed to the elements since 1944,
> > while Kremas II through V had been, this meaning that the conditions
> > for the decomposiiton of possible cyanide compounds were radically
> > different for the control sample as opposed to those taken from the gas
> > chamber sites.
> 
>      This sounds reasonable to me. But if this is the case there is
> certainly no proof that the Germans had any gas chambers. 

Neither is it proof that they didn't have. Mastery of the technique of
delousing by Zyklon-B logically includes mastery of the technique of
killing people by Zyklon-B.

> They also didn't find any bodies of people who died from being gassed.

The Germans had more than eight weeks to dispose of the evidence. Even
if they had not gone to a special effort to dispose of the evidence,
you don't think they would have had corpses from the last gassings at
Auschwitz, which took place in mid-November, 1944, still lying around
when the camp was liberated in mid January, 1945.

The recently discovered excavations at the site of the Belzec
extermination center indicate the existence many unburned human
remains. If some of these remains are dug up and examined and found to
have no signs of disease or physical violence, then the conclusion will
surely be that they were the victims of gassing, as indicated by the
historical record.


> > Methodological error 6:
> > > Only
> > > Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect  that these locations had
> sunlight
> > > (the buildings have been torn down) and sunlight may hasten the
> destruction
> > > of uncomplexed cyanide.
> >
> > Kremas II, III, IV, and V, each in their own way, had been exposed to
> > the elements. The conditions in them were thus radically diferent from
> > those of either the delousing chambers or Krema I.
> 
>     The cyanide combines with the iron in the mortar and
>  brick and becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide or prussian blue pigmentation, a
> very
>  stable iron-cyanide complex.

The delousing chambers and Krema I had not been exposed to the elements
since 1944, Kremas II, II, IV, and V had. Cyanide compounds are not
impervious to the influences of water and humidity.


> > Methodological error 7:

>     This is what you wrote and what started this thread:
> 
> "There is abundant physical evidence of the Holocaust. Classical sources
> include:
> 1. The mass graves recently investigated at Belzec.
> 2. The traces of human remains found during the geological exaination
> of the Auschwitz camp.
> 3. The traces of cyanide found on the walls and in the ventilation"
> 
>        Do you admit that #3 is false or at least deliberately misleading?

Not at all. Leuchter made the unsubstantiated claim that the traces of
cyanide on the walls (he didn't mention the ventilation) were
consequence of delousing of the structures carried out "once, long
ago". This conveniently neglects three important points:

1. If they were consequences of delousing, we would expect a record of
this in camp archives. No such records have been found.
2. If they were consequences of delousing, we would expect a more even
distribution in the buildings which housed the gas chambers. In some
places there are obvious traces, in others there are none.
3. Since delousing requires a far higher concentration of and a longer
exposure time to HCN, there is nothing to preclude these compounds
being the consequences of gassing.

> >
> > Methodological error 8:
> >
> > >      "The locations from which the analyzed samples were removed are set
> out
> > > in Table III.
> > >      "It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that
> the
> > > few that were positive were very close to the detection level (1mg/kg);
> 6.7
> > > mg/kg at Krema III; 7.9 mg/kg at Krerma I.
> >
> > Leuchter, not understanding that the concentrations of HCN needed to
> > kill people need be no higher than 300 ppm does not understand that,
> > his methodological errors notwithstanding, these figures are consistent
> > with the structures in question having been used as homicidal gas
> > chambers.
> 
>      Zyklon B is an insecticide. There is no doubt that it was used to kill
> the lice. If it was used to kill humans then this is the same number of ppm.

What you wrote above is nonsense.

You need 16,000 ppm sustained over 20 hours  to kill lice, but only 300
ppm sustained over 15 min. to kill people. Exposures (concentrations
maintained over a specific timeframe) that kill lice always kill
people, exposures that kill people never kill lice.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:07 EST 2001
Article: 874868 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:40:32 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <170320012040329945%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AB2854A.AB848FF1@earthlink.net> <20010317102146.02543.00001228@ng-mg1.aol.com> <3AB39AC6.C8BE1271@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984854432 20 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 18:40:32 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 18:40:32 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874868

In article <3AB39AC6.C8BE1271@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> And THAT is the problme. the American people are offered this ludicrous
> charade
> called elections but are denied any meaningful choice.
> 
> ======================

The candidates are the result of a long and arduous system of
preliminary elections, aka primaries. At the first stage of primaries
you often get some pretty controversial characters: Pat Buchanan and
David Duke have been in the running. But the electorate eventually
figures out who is capable of winning and who isn't, thus paving the
way for electable, plain vanilla types.

Politics (of the non-dictatorial persuasion) is the art of the possible.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:07 EST 2001
Article: 874878 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Mayer
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:00:35 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <170320012000355808%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984852040 28127 128.214.199.213 (17 Mar 2001 18:00:40 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 18:00:40 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:874878

In article , Public
 wrote:

> Dr. Mayer of Princeton makes a startling 
> statement saying sources for the study of the 
> gas chambers are at once rare 
> and unreliable.

He is absolutely correct. Compared to sources for studying, say, the
mass murders carried out by the Einsatzkommandos or even the gassings
carried pout within the framework of the T-4 euhansia program, the
amount of historical evidence pertaining to the gas chambers is meagre
and unreliable in the sense that it is never of the "smoking gun"
variety.

> 
> While Mayer believes that such chambers did 
> exist at Auschwitz, he points out that most 
> of what is known is based on the depositions 
> of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials 
> and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. 
> 
> This testimony must be screened CAREFULLY, since it 
> can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.
> 
> Would someone comment?

There is far too much independent and non-contradictory evidence for
the existence of Nazi gas chambers for their historical factuality to
be a matter for serious questioning. Sizes, dates of commissioning,
operating records, lethal agents used, architectural plans, dates of
decommissioning, all exist as historical records from which a
considerable of information can be gleaned. Nevertheless, the Nazis
went to considerable efforts to obfuscate their use of gas chambers,
this being as much a prophylactic to conceal their existence from their
indended victims as a means of destroying evidence once it became clear
that the 1,000 year Reich was destined to survive but twelve tumultuous
but murderous years.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:08 EST 2001
Article: 875102 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:35:33 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <180320011335332677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AB0FF1A.3750D180@earthlink.net> <20010315173355.26268.00001226@ng-fa1.aol.com>     <3AB3EE88.538E8999@earthlink.net> <3ab3efd0$1@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com> <3AB3F3B3.7FD4E99D@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984915333 16890 128.214.199.213 (18 Mar 2001 11:35:33 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2001 11:35:33 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875102

In article <3AB3F3B3.7FD4E99D@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> My problem is not with America.  It is with the subversives, aliens, and
> multicuturalists who have taken over.
> 
> ==============================

Your problem seems to be with America. The subversives, aliens, and
multiculturalists constitute the largest set of Americans and are thus,
by default, the ordinary Americans. The more homogeneous American that
you retain in your mind and ideals as a static image from half a
century ago has gone the way of the hoola-hoop, the DeSoto, the 5¢
cigar, the high-school diploma as a ticket to lifetime employment, and
Hopalong Cassidy. It's known as historical change and cultural
evolution.

The result of change and evolution is that living standards have never
been higher, and prosperity more widely distributed in American history
than is the case today. Never before have so many Americans been able
to aspire to become what they wanted to be without having to worry
about glass ceilings or discriminatory practices based on sex,
ethnicity, religious background, or sexual preference. The America of
today is close to the America many people were dreaming about back in
the 1950s when power and influence were much more concentrated in the
hands of self-serving and cloistered elites than is the case today.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:08 EST 2001
Article: 875172 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:04:24 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <180320011804242871%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AB0FF1A.3750D180@earthlink.net> <20010315173355.26268.00001226@ng-fa1.aol.com>     <3AB3EE88.538E8999@earthlink.net> <3ab3efd0$1@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com> <3AB3F3B3.7FD4E99D@earthlink.net> <180320011335332677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB4C235.272269A7@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984931464 29512 128.214.199.213 (18 Mar 2001 16:04:24 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2001 16:04:24 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875172

In article <3AB4C235.272269A7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > > ==============================
> >
> > Your problem seems to be with America. The subversives, aliens, and
> > multiculturalists constitute the largest set of Americans and are thus,
> > by default, the ordinary Americans.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Really?   Tell me exactly what you know about ordinary white Americans.
> 
> ================================

Quite a lot, thank you. I did spend the first 20 years of my life in an
America that, more than is the case now, conformed to and was dominated
by ordinary white American values. Racial and ethnic minorities were
all but invisible in the media, and they, as well as women, were
allocated a certain, low tier in the job market. It was still somewhat
of a sensation that blacks, such as Jack Robinson, were allowed to play
major league sports. Jews, althought then already a powerful force in
New York City, Washington, and academia, enjoyed nowhere near the
amount of power, prestige, or influence that they have now.

> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is possible that there are a lot of us who don't appreciate having certain
> things sneered at by know-it-all wiseasses. The fact that you are a black,
> expatriate wiseass does not help much.
> 
> =====================================================

A tiger can't change his stripes. In any case, from my viewing post
here in the far north I've seen the America you live in today evolve
>from the simpler, Eisenhowerian republic were I spent my formative
years. The first political discussion I remember engaging in concerned
the pros and cons of the so-called liberalism of Adlai Stevenson before
the 1956 presidential elections.

In a very different way, Finland is a smaller and simpler model of the
America of the 1960s. Like the US, the Finland that I moved to during
the 1960s earned its livelihood primarily from industry - paper and
cellulose production, woodworking, shipbuilding, textiles - with a
strong, protected, and subsidized agricultural sector that kept the
countryside populated and the country not only self sufficient, but
actually swamped by overproduction of basic foodstuffs.

Now, Finland is a very different country from the US, in the absence of
large racial minorities or a history of institutionalized racism,
ethnic tensions follow linguistic (Finnish vs. Swedish vs. Sami
(Lappish)), region (east vs. west, north vs. south, capital region vs.
rest of country), and lifestyle (urban vs. rural). The political system
is based on proportional representation, so instead of having a
winner-take-all-system like you have in the states, all major interests
are always represented in accordance with the number of votes they are
able to get. This means that changes are less radical and based more on
compromise or consensus than in the US.

In any case, like the US, Finland has also evolved into a
multicultural, post-industrial society. The number of industrial and
agricultural jobs has dropped drastically during the past decade, and
Finland has become a country of immigration, with communities of
Somalis, Chileans, Vietnamese, Estonians, Gambians, Palestinians,
Russians, Chinese, Kurds, Afghanis, Albanians, yes, and ex-pat
Americans and Canadians of various types. In a population of 5,100,000,
more than 100,000 are foreign born, with the number rising rapidly.

EU membership opened the agricultural sector to competition. The family
farm became a thing of the past, but rationalized agricuture on an
industrial basis has enabled Finland to capture a few specialized
markets and even become a major agricultural exporter for the first
time in its history. Food prices have gone down in absolute terms, and
agricultural subsidies have mostly been phased out. The downside is
that the countryside is depopulating, and the country is no longer as
self-sufficient as it had once been in food.

As to industry, twenty years ago Finland's main industrial exports,
paper and cellulose, sold for $0.60 a kilogram. Today its main
industrial export, mobile telephones, sell for about $1,500 a kilogram.
Its future export, information technology know-how, has a virtually
infinite $/kilogram price because it is intangible. Living standards
are higher here than ever before, the economy is diversified enough to
provide everyone with some reasonable type of qualification with a job,
and multiculturalism has made Finland a manufacturer and exporter of
bagels, pasta, and pelmeni in addition to diversifying the cityscape.

Although a simpler story than what has happened in the US, the
transition from a homogenous industrial society to a more multicultural
post-industrial society that we have experienced here is not all that
different from what has gone on in the United States. The bottom line
is that living standards in both countries have never been higher, nor
have the members of society every faced fewer barriers on their desire
to gain an education or marketable skills and then use them in the
marketplace.


> > The result of change and evolution is that living standards have never
> > been higher, and prosperity more widely distributed in American history
> > than is the case today.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> That may be true for something like 20% of the American people. For the rest,
> there has been a steady decline in real wages since the high points of the
> late 60s and early 70s.
> 
> ====================================================

Statistics, please! I visit the US once every year or two. Even areas
that were poor slums twenty years ago have now become "gentrified";
peeople and groups that were just able to make ends meet a generation
ago are doing quite well. A clear majority of the American populaton is
living better now that it ever has in history, although I am willing to
concede that the lower-middle class white, Anglo-Saxon American male
who had a clear position of privilege two generations ago has become
more "ordinary" and has to compete on a more level playing field with
everyone else. White American Anglo-Saxon males are, however, a
numerically insignificant minority in the US population, somewhere in
the range of 10%. The number within this set that is lower-middle class
is much smaller.
 
> > Never before have so many Americans been able
> > to aspire to become what they wanted to be without having to worry
> > about glass ceilings or discriminatory practices based on sex,
> > ethnicity, religious background, or sexual preference. The America of
> > today is close to the America many people were dreaming about back in
> > the 1950s when power and influence were much more concentrated in the
> > hands of self-serving and cloistered elites than is the case today.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> You have it bass-ackwards. YOu tell me that, in the 1950s, Americans were
> dreaming about what we have today. The truth is that today, millions of people
> are dreaming about what they had in the 1950s.
> 
> =======================================================

My first bout of political activism was participation in a march on
washington for civil rights in 1958. We were demanding that all
Americans be allowed such things as the right to vote, the right of
access to public accommodations, and decent opportunities for
education. Those rights have been achieved. During the late 1960s
women, inspired by the success of the civil rights movmeent, agitated
for and eventually obtained the right of access to economic power and
other privileges that had been the monopoly of males up until then. For
me, the fact that Dr. Ruth Simmons, a woman and an African-American, is
about to assume the Presidency of an Ivy League University
(http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-091.html),
is a positiove symbol of what these developments have led to; for you
it probably symbolizes everything that is wrong since it means that a
white Anglo-Saxon male has lost an opportunity for a position that
would have been his by default two generatons ago.

Millions of Americans who now have to compete for what they could
expect by default in the 1950s complain of loss of privilege. I shed
large, salty, crocodile tears for them. Many millions more, the
demographic group to have made the most progress at the expense of the
white American Anglo male being the American woman of any race or
ethnicity, are quite happy that the America they worked hard to create,
"with freedom and justice for ALL" (emphasis added), now exists. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:08 EST 2001
Article: 875182 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Supersedes: <180320011807414739%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:11:08 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <180320011811087181%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AB0FF1A.3750D180@earthlink.net> <20010315173355.26268.00001226@ng-fa1.aol.com>     <3AB3EE88.538E8999@earthlink.net> <3ab3efd0$1@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com> <3AB3F3B3.7FD4E99D@earthlink.net> <180320011335332677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB4C235.272269A7@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984931867 29512 128.214.199.213 (18 Mar 2001 16:11:07 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2001 16:11:07 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875182

In article <3AB4C235.272269A7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > > ==============================
> >
> > Your problem seems to be with America. The subversives, aliens, and
> > multiculturalists constitute the largest set of Americans and are thus,
> > by default, the ordinary Americans.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Really?   Tell me exactly what you know about ordinary white Americans.
> 
> ================================

Quite a lot, thank you. I did spend the first 20 years of my life in an
America that, more than is the case now, conformed to and was dominated
by ordinary white American values. Racial and ethnic minorities were
all but invisible in the media, and they, as well as women, were
allocated a certain, low tier in the job market. It was still somewhat
of a sensation that blacks, such as Jackie Robinson, were allowed to
play major league sports. Jews, althought then already a powerful force
in New York City, Washington, and academia, enjoyed nowhere near the
amount of power, prestige, or influence that they have now.

> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is possible that there are a lot of us who don't appreciate having certain
> things sneered at by know-it-all wiseasses. The fact that you are a black,
> expatriate wiseass does not help much.
> 
> =====================================================

A tiger can't change his stripes. In any case, from my viewing post
here in the far north I've seen the America you live in today evolve
>from the simpler, Eisenhowerian republic where I spent my formative
years. The first political discussion I remember engaging in concerned
the pros and cons of the so-called liberalism of Adlai Stevenson before
the 1956 presidential elections.

In a very different way, Finland is a smaller and simpler model of the
America of the 1960s. Like the US, the Finland that I moved to during
the 1960s earned its livelihood primarily from industry - paper and
cellulose production, woodworking, shipbuilding, textiles - with a
strong, protected, and subsidized agricultural sector that kept the
countryside populated and the country not only self sufficient, but
actually swamped by overproduction of basic foodstuffs.

Now, Finland is a very different country from the US, in the absence of
large racial minorities or a history of institutionalized racism,
ethnic tensions follow linguistic (Finnish vs. Swedish vs. Sami
(Lappish)), region (east vs. west, north vs. south, capital region vs.
rest of country), and lifestyle (urban vs. rural). The political system
is based on proportional representation, so instead of having a
winner-take-all-system like you have in the states, all major interests
are always represented in accordance with the number of votes they are
able to get. This means that changes are less radical and based more on
compromise or consensus than in the US.

In any case, like the US, Finland has also evolved into a
multicultural, post-industrial society. The number of industrial and
agricultural jobs has dropped drastically during the past decade, and
Finland has become a country of immigration, with communities of
Somalis, Chileans, Vietnamese, Estonians, Gambians, Palestinians,
Russians, Chinese, Kurds, Afghanis, Albanians, yes, and ex-pat
Americans and Canadians of various types. In a population of 5,100,000,
more than 100,000 are foreign born, with the number rising rapidly.

EU membership opened the agricultural sector to competition. The family
farm became a thing of the past, but rationalized agricuture on an
industrial basis has enabled Finland to capture a few specialized
markets and even become a major agricultural exporter for the first
time in its history. Food prices have gone down in absolute terms, and
agricultural subsidies have mostly been phased out. The downside is
that the countryside is depopulating, and the country is no longer as
self-sufficient as it had once been in food.

As to industry, twenty years ago Finland's main industrial exports,
paper and cellulose, sold for $0.60 a kilogram. Today its main
industrial export, mobile telephones, sell for about $1,500 a kilogram.
Its future export, information technology know-how, has a virtually
infinite $/kilogram price because it is intangible. Living standards
are higher here than ever before, the economy is diversified enough to
provide everyone with some reasonable type of qualification with a job,
and multiculturalism has made Finland a manufacturer and exporter of
bagels, pasta, and pelmeni in addition to diversifying the cityscape.

Although a simpler story than what has happened in the US, the
transition from a homogenous industrial society to a more multicultural
post-industrial society that we have experienced here is not all that
different from what has gone on in the United States. The bottom line
is that living standards in both countries have never been higher, nor
have the members of society every faced fewer barriers on their desire
to gain an education or marketable skills and then use them in the
marketplace.


> > The result of change and evolution is that living standards have never
> > been higher, and prosperity more widely distributed in American history
> > than is the case today.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> That may be true for something like 20% of the American people. For the rest,
> there has been a steady decline in real wages since the high points of the
> late 60s and early 70s.
> 
> ====================================================

Statistics, please! I visit the US once every year or two. Even areas
that were poor slums twenty years ago have now become "gentrified";
peeople and groups that were just able to make ends meet a generation
ago are doing quite well. A clear majority of the American populaton is
living better now that it ever has in history, although I am willing to
concede that the lower-middle class white, Anglo-Saxon American male
who had a clear position of privilege two generations ago has become
more "ordinary" and has to compete on a more level playing field with
everyone else. White American Anglo-Saxon males are, however, a
numerically insignificant minority in the US population, somewhere in
the range of 10%. The number within this set that is lower-middle class
is much smaller.
 
> > Never before have so many Americans been able
> > to aspire to become what they wanted to be without having to worry
> > about glass ceilings or discriminatory practices based on sex,
> > ethnicity, religious background, or sexual preference. The America of
> > today is close to the America many people were dreaming about back in
> > the 1950s when power and influence were much more concentrated in the
> > hands of self-serving and cloistered elites than is the case today.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> You have it bass-ackwards. YOu tell me that, in the 1950s, Americans were
> dreaming about what we have today. The truth is that today, millions of people
> are dreaming about what they had in the 1950s.
> 
> =======================================================

My first bout of political activism was participation in a march on
washington for civil rights in 1958. We were demanding that all
Americans be allowed such things as the right to vote, the right of
access to public accommodations, and decent opportunities for
education. Those rights have been achieved. During the late 1960s
women, inspired by the success of the civil rights movmeent, agitated
for and eventually obtained the right of access to economic power and
other privileges that had been the monopoly of males up until then. For
me, the fact that Dr. Ruth Simmons, a woman and an African-American, is
about to assume the Presidency of an Ivy League University
(http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-091.html),
is a positiove symbol of what these developments have led to; for you
it probably symbolizes everything that is wrong since it means that a
white Anglo-Saxon male has lost an opportunity for a position that
would have been his by default two generatons ago.

Millions of Americans who now have to compete for what they could
expect by default in the 1950s complain of loss of privilege. I shed
large, salty, crocodile tears for them. Many millions more, the
demographic group to have made the most progress at the expense of the
white American Anglo male being the American woman of any race or
ethnicity, are quite happy that the America they worked hard to create,
"with freedom and justice for ALL" (emphasis added), now exists. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:09 EST 2001
Article: 875198 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: National Socialism. Will it be a dictatorship?
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:42:53 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 244
Message-ID: <180320011942538280%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AB0FF1A.3750D180@earthlink.net> <20010315173355.26268.00001226@ng-fa1.aol.com>     <3AB3EE88.538E8999@earthlink.net> <3ab3efd0$1@spamkiller.newsfeeds.com> <3AB3F3B3.7FD4E99D@earthlink.net> <180320011335332677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB4C235.272269A7@earthlink.net> <180320011804242871%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB4E20C.538E38B2@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984937373 4397 128.214.199.213 (18 Mar 2001 17:42:53 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2001 17:42:53 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875198

In article <3AB4E20C.538E38B2@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > > ================================
> >
> > Quite a lot, thank you. I did spend the first 20 years of my life in an
> > America that, more than is the case now, conformed to and was dominated
> > by ordinary white American values. Racial and ethnic minorities were
> > all but invisible in the media, and they, as well as women, were
> > allocated a certain, low tier in the job market. It was still somewhat
> > of a sensation that blacks, such as Jackie Robinson, were allowed to play
> > major league sports. Jews, althought then already a powerful force in
> > New York City, Washington, and academia, enjoyed nowhere near the
> > amount of power, prestige, or influence that they have now.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Then we part company on principle because, what you have described is, in my
> carboniferous-era opinion, the way things should be.
> 
> ====================================================

No, Richard. It's the way things _were_. Many people were opposed to
that state of affairs, including the largest disadvantaged group,
women. A lot of work was done, and not a few lives were sacrificed, to
change that system to something more equitible for as many people as
possible.

> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> And this, I am to take it, is a good thing. I suppose it would be useless for
> me to
> argue the ideology of Blood and Soil.
> 
> ===================================

Believe me, that has been argued here. But nothing talks like results.
Finland has never been more prosperous than it is today.

> 
> > , but rationalized agricuture on an
> > industrial basis has enabled Finland to capture a few specialized
> > markets and even become a major agricultural exporter for the first
> > time in its history. Food prices have gone down in absolute terms, and
> > agricultural subsidies have mostly been phased out. The downside is
> > that the countryside is depopulating, and the country is no longer as
> > self-sufficient as it had once been in food.
> 
> =========================================
> phillips
> 
> Generous of you to make that admission.
> 
> ========================================

Finland is still self-sufficient, it is just no longer producing
mind-boggling agricultural surpluses - mountains of butter, pork, and
wheat - that cost an arm and a leg to store, but were produced at costs
so high that they are too expensive to export and far exceed the
country's capacity to consume them.

> > As to industry, twenty years ago Finland's main industrial exports,
> > paper and cellulose, sold for $0.60 a kilogram. Today its main
> > industrial export, mobile telephones, sell for about $1,500 a kilogram.
> > Its future export, information technology know-how, has a virtually
> > infinite $/kilogram price because it is intangible.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I don't suppose it has occured to you that, by hitching their wagon to the
> star of
> hi-tech exports, they have placed themselves at the mercy of a competition
> with
> nations infinitely wealthier and more powerful than herself.
> 
> =======================================

That is a risk. Nevertheless, if you master a few critical sectors and
become the force defining the cutting edge, you have a resource that
others cannot match. With mobile telephones, the innovative high tech
comes from multinational teams working in or tied up with Finland,
while much of the actual manufacturing is done close to local markets
in Mexico, Estonia, China, etc.

High technologiy spins off new high technologies. The secret is to know
what you can do best, keep innovating, and farm out necessary work that
others can do more efficiently to those willing to do it for a
competitive price.


> > > ====================================================
> >
> > Statistics, please! I visit the US once every year or two. Even areas
> > that were poor slums twenty years ago have now become "gentrified";
> 
> ====================================================
> phillips
> 
> Gentrified. NOw I'm glad you brought that up. Do you know what gentrification
> means.
> It means that people who may have spent their entire lives in a certain area
> are
> pushed out by impossible rents to make way for Yuppies who have suddenly
> taken an
> unaccountable fancy to it. I gather you have no problem with this.
> 
> =================================

If they have rented all their lives, yes it is bad. On the other hand,
there are also property and business owners in places that become
gentrified, and they obviosuly gain. On the whole, "gentrification"
means adding value to an area, something which usually means long-term
benefits for most of those involved. When I was a kid our family lived
for some time in a housing project for WW II vets in Brooklyn, NY. The
project represented an improvement over the lower-middle class (but not
slum) neighborhood that had been there previosuy. The last time I was
in Brooklyn three years ago, I visited the area. The project is still
there, but it has been upgraded and actually looked half-way decent.
The surroundings had also been markedly improved. The area,
Gowanus/Cobble Hill, is only a fifteen minute subway ride to lower
Manhattan, and property values have developed to reflect this fact.


> > peeople and groups that were just able to make ends meet a generation
> > ago are doing quite well. A clear majority of the American population is
> > living better now that it ever has in history,
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Rubbish.
> 
> ======================================

I stand by what I wrote. Women are no longer economically dependent on
men, this opening up entirely new vistas for what had long been the
largest economically disadvantaged group. Members of minorities are
also making it to the highest levels of powers because status is based
more on competence and performance than on connections and inherited
privilege. As far as African-Americans are concerned, approximately two
thirds are solidly middle class, homeowners with children who are or
will be attending college. This was unthinkable back in the 1950s when
many were still functionally illiterate.

> > although I am willing to
> > concede that the lower-middle class white, Anglo-Saxon American male
> > who had a clear position of privilege two generations ago has become
> > more "ordinary" and has to compete on a more level playing field with
> > everyone else.
> 
> ======================================================
> Phillips
> 
> He never had any position of "privilege." It's just that America happened to
> be his country.
> 
> ============================================

That was his illusion. It was a country created where everyone was
considered to have specific inalienable rights and to be equal before
the law. Even if these ideals initially applied to white men of
Anglo-Saxon background, it was implied that they were supposed to
eventually apply to everyone. Since the territory the United States was
able to acquire for itself was far larger than the pool of white Anglo
men available to work it, other people had to be brought in to provide
assistance and the ideals on which the country was based had to be
extended to them as well. You might call it a trade-off: in exchange
for the human resources needed to develop "his" country, the white
Anglo male had to extend the pool of people to whom its ideals applied.
Without the inpout of slaves and immigrants, the United States would
probably have remained little more than a coastal strip of land from
Maine to Georgia.

Of course my account is a massive simplification, but the problem of
slavery, the historicity of the Civil war, as well as the struggles for
civil rights, Indian rights, women's suffrage, women's rights, and
immigration reform, all of these major and defining issues in American
history over the past two centuries, were all ultimately successful
challenges to claims that the United States was a "white man's"
country. If you bite off far more than you can chew, you have some
obligations to the folks who help you deal successfully with your
problem.

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Freedom and justice for all - right? So it was perfectly right and proper
> that we
> turn our society upside-down to provide unearned and undeserved opportunities
> to
> members of a minority who
> 
> (1) Have made our cities uninhabitable

That is a minority within a minority. Neither can the abandonment of
inner cities - a trend which has undergone a strong reversal during the
past decade - be laid solely at the foot of the black underclass. Lack
of opportunities in the economic mainstream, economic speculation
(including insurance fraud), as well as hypocritical and asinine
policies towards brown as opposed to white cocaine are also to blame.
For every inner city slum there are middle and upper middle class
suburban neiughborhoods which are partially or mostly black where
people go to great effort to maintain their houses and keep their
neighborhoods as clean and safe as possible. My parents have lived for
the past 40 years in the Hollis-St. Albans section of Queens (where
Colin Powell grew up), one of numerous such areas.

At different times and in different eras American Indians, Dutch
speakers, Irish, Eastern European Jews, and Italians were also accused
of making cities uninhabitable. Things were eventually worked out, as
is happening in many American cities today.
 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> (2) Have shown their gratitude by demanding (successfully) the removal of the name
> George Washington from the name of a school

This is a minority within a minority within a minority. You return to
this as if it were some conspiracy. It was a local incident by local
people. They still have to look at George Washington's countenance
every time they handle a dollar bill or a quarter.

> ======================================
> Phillips
> (3) Have proven their intrinsic brainlessness by getting themselves in an uproar
> over some official who never called anyone a 'nigger" but only used the word
> "niggardly" whose meaning has nothing to do with race - which meaning they were
> perfectly aware of.
> 
> ======================================

Here I agree with you 100 per cent. But, hey, anyone can be an ignorant
fool. Prudency and the knowledge that word "niggardly" is perniciously
close to the "n-word" might cause a discrete person to use it with
caution. If there ever was a tempest in a teapot...

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:09 EST 2001
Article: 875278 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:44:25 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <180320012344256272%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>  <3AAC5AF1.FC164EA5@verizon.net>  <3AAD239E.549277D6@verizon.net>  <3AAD64BC.83F6C37@verizon.net>  <3AAF18E9.95E2FD22@verizon.net> <140320011531004479%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB0FD83.1099902C@earthlink.net> <170320011454094735%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB37F9F.9315745A@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984951866 16103 128.214.199.213 (18 Mar 2001 21:44:26 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2001 21:44:26 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875278

In article <3AB37F9F.9315745A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Holocuast did not in any way involve Americans, either as victims...

False!

€ American citizens of Jewish ethnicity who happened to be living in
various European countries when they were invaded by Germany were put
into concentration camps, with some of them being killed. 
€ American POWs were interned in concentration camps and executed in
violation of various international conventions. Of those that survived
many had been reduced to walking skeletons, forced to perform arduous
slave labor, and mistreated in the same manner as any other
concentration camp inmates. 
€ Many people who are now Americans wound up in the USA because the
communities and culture into which they were born were uprooted and
destroyed by the Nazis and there was no place for them to return to
after they had been liberated from Nazi concentration camps or rescued
>from death marches by American forces.
€ Many prominent American citizens such as Henry Kissinger and
Madeleine Albright, as well as many American academics who were
prominent during the 1950s, 60s, and 70s such as Albert Einstein and
Hans Bethe were/are Holocaust refugees.
€ Even you, Richard, most of whose distant relatives back in Odessa
were wiped out by the Nazis during the fall of 1941, are a Holocaust
victim; most or all of your extended family was liquidated, even if
you've never bothered to check the details.

> ==============================================
> Phillips
>
or as perpetrators...

False!

Ford and Chrysler are among the American firms with German subsidiaries
that have been demonstrated to have made extensive use of Jewish slave
labor at their production plants in Germany during the Holocaust
period.

The role of IBM as a supplier of information technology which made it
easier to identify Jews after it was known that the Nazis were using
this information to intern and murder Jews in occupied Europe is
currently being investigated.

> ==============================================
> Phillips
>
> In other words, it just is not an American issue, is not a thing with which 
> Americans need concern themselves 55 years after the fact.

False!

It is a quintessentially American issue. America has provided a home
for hundreds of thousands of Holocaust victims, and it played a key
role in the continent-wide operation that was necessary to halt the
Holocaust, contributing hundreds of thousands of sacrificed American
lives to do so. America is, its problems notwithstanding, an example of
a successful multiracial and multicultural society. The Holocaust
serves as an instructive and frightening example of the depths to which
a seemingly civilized society can fall if it falls under the control of
people whose world view is based on intolerance, virulent racism,
cultural monolithicism, and misanthropy.

Millions of Americans, including yourself, lost relatives, loved ones,
and property as a result of the policies towards Jews, Gypsies, and
others followed by the Nazis between 1933 and 1945.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:09 EST 2001
Article: 875475 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips - where is the evidence?
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:14:21 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <190320010914216142%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3aa6d96a@news.internex.net.au> <3AA6F54B.9B4F8BBF@deadletter.com>  <3AA73665.95ECFFF9@verizon.net>  <3AA7ADA3.4A89231B@verizon.net> <080320011957259606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AA7DBF0.3622143F@verizon.net>  <3AA9903A.CCF63265@verizon.net>  <3AAC5AF1.FC164EA5@verizon.net>  <3AAD239E.549277D6@verizon.net>  <3AAD64BC.83F6C37@verizon.net>  <3AAF18E9.95E2FD22@verizon.net> <140320011531004479%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB0FD83.1099902C@earthlink.net> <170320011454094735%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB37F9F.9315745A@earthlink.net> <180320012344256272%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AB5471E.AC39A80E@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 984986062 11709 128.214.199.213 (19 Mar 2001 07:14:22 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 07:14:22 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875475

In article <3AB5471E.AC39A80E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > € Even you, Richard, most of whose distant relatives back in Odessa
> > were wiped out by the Nazis during the fall of 1941, are a Holocaust
> > victim; most or all of your extended family was liquidated, even if
> > you've never bothered to check the details.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I've made a note to weep copiously tonight.
> 
> Gawd, I almost forgot: where are my reparations?
> 
> ============================

You, too, might be eligible. Have you ever done any research on the
branches of your family that stayed behind? Have you ever thought how
different your life might be if you had a relationship with the
children and grandchildren of your relatives in the Odessa area who
were killed by the Nazis?

> > > ==============================================
>
> =========================================
> 
> > The Holocaust
> > serves as an instructive and frightening example of the depths to which
> > a seemingly civilized society can fall if it falls under the control of
> > people whose world view is based on intolerance, virulent racism,
> > cultural monolithicism, and misanthropy.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> POssibly. Now all you have to do is to convince me that it happened.
> 
> ====================================

If the Holocaust didn't happen how do you explain the fact that during
the fall of 1941, Einsatzgruppe C systematically disposed of more than
70,000 Jews in Ukraine. The Germans marched into Kiev, Dnepropetrovsk,
Odessa, Karkhov, Ustanovka, Serniki, Lvov, and other locations,
announced that Jewish property and homes were being confiscated by the
invaders, and that Jews were to gather at certain points for
"resettlement", after which they were taken to specific locations,
usually, ravines or pre-dug graves just outside the city, and shot.
There are literally thousands of military and other records, including
photographs, newsreels, propaganda films, and mass graves attesting to
this having happened, not to mention the fact that the Ukrainian branch
of your extended family no longer exists.


> > Millions of Americans, including yourself, lost relatives, loved ones,
> > and property as a result of the policies towards Jews, Gypsies, and
> > others followed by the Nazis between 1933 and 1945.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> I told you. I've made a note to weep copiously tonight.
> 
> ================================

You shouldn't take this lightly. You are a Holocaust victim. You were
deprived of your relatives back in the "Old Country" as a consequence
of the policy followed by the Nazis in the invaded and occupied
Ukraine. In the unlikely but not impossible event that you had been in
Ukraine visiting relatives in 1941 you would almost certainly have been
pushing up daisies for the past sixty years.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:09 EST 2001
Article: 875535 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news000.worldonline.se!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hysterical
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:23:48 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <190320011823485614%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3abb7ca2.353639718@news.pacificnet.net> <3abc8012.354519873@news.pacificnet.net>  <3abe1778.393283708@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 985019026 12328 128.214.199.213 (19 Mar 2001 16:23:46 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 16:23:46 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875535

In article <3abe1778.393283708@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Daffer squawks:
> >  Not so. At Belzec they found evidence of 33 mass graves (IIRC).
> >
> >  So, you claiming that there 'has never been one single forensic
> >  exposure [sic] carried out ...' is false.
> >
> >  Moreover, you know this since you were just discussing Belzec in the
> >  yahoo club 'Holocaust Denial', so in making this claim you are
> >  lying.
> 
> 
> Does that mean you say Moran has been discussing the alleged studies
> and that he thinks they actually took place? Or do you know that Moran
> thinks they never took place?  You see, Daffer, the record shows that
> you're the liar.

The record shows that the Polish Prime Minister, a major international
news service, and CODOH have put their reputations on the line by
claiming that the excavations did indeed take place and that they
yielded some concrete evidence, see
http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/ncrowell/nrvscbelzecdig.html  for
details.

I've posted the article dealing with the exhumation of the Jeckeln-type
graves at Ustinovska and Serniki
(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ftp.py?places//ukraine/serniki-exc
avations) by Prof. Richard Wright and his team of forensic
archeologists more than once here. You are certainly speaking in the
face of the facts if you claim that these exhumations, the evidence
produced by which was used in an Australian trial, never took place.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Mar 19 15:30:10 EST 2001
Article: 875578 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photograph authenticity
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:46:17 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <190320012146176344%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3ab58e5a$0$25489$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>  <3ab64f07$0$25508$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au> <3AB6560D.8FF91CFB@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eng-0047.eng.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 985031180 23022 128.214.199.213 (19 Mar 2001 19:46:20 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 19:46:20 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:875578

In article <3AB6560D.8FF91CFB@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I posted several reasons for believing the thing is a fraud; none, in my
> estimation, have been satisfactorily addressed. I will now add another:
> Just WHO took that photograph and why. Did the soldier want it to send back
> to his loved ones? Assuming that this unit did the things you imply they
> did, is it reasonable that they would want photographic records floating
> around?
> 
> =================================

Nazi military photographers took pictures and films gruesomely
documenting the implementation of the Final Solution when it was still
being done publicly, see e.g. http://www.shoa.de/einsatzgruppen.html.
The public relations disaster of mass shootings of Jews and Gypsies in
Nazi-occupied countries in full view of local populations unconvinced
that they would not be the next victims, as well as the gradual
realization that the war would not be over in three months, eventually
resulted in a revision of methodology as well as in a reconsideration
of what information was better left concealed or obfuscated. I have
seen dozens of pictures and films of the mass shootings committed by
the Einsaztkommandos as well as a few photographs of people being
gassed within the euthanasia program. I only remember having seen a
single picture of a gas chamber door being opened with the bodies of
people just gassed grotesquely packed against the door. I seem to
remember that there is a research archive in Koblenz open only to top
researchers where the photoraphic and filmatographic evidence of these
most concrete aspects of the Holocaust is stored.

In any case, during the summer and early fall of 1941, when most of
these pictures and films were made, the Nazis thought that winning the
war would be a cinch, and they certainly wanted to document the steps
leading to their victory. From the standpoint of the Nazi ideology of
this period, the films and pictures in question were seen as
documenting the long-awaited physical annihilation of the implacable
enemy of the Aryan race. Mass murders were something to write home
about, and the records of them were something to save for posterity.

Regards,
Eugene Holman



Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.