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From dexter@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Fri Aug 23 10:58:02 PDT 1996
Article: 83574 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!dexter
From: dexter@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Frosch)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: About That Goldhagen Book....
Date: 23 Aug 1996 00:07:42 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4visoe$6ej@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <9608221901.AA32258@fitz.eng.intercon.com>
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sharon@intercon.com (Sharon Henderson) writes:

>Greetings, my friends:

	i am pleased not to consider myself a friend of yours.

>	I got to thinking about the posting the other day about Mr. Goldhagen's 
>book, and realized that there were some major misconceptions in it, and some 
>deep injustices.  To say that no one stepped out of the firing squad when told 
>they could, if they didn't want to kill people, is not to say the Germans were 
>willing executioners; it is simply to say they were scared for themselves and 
>their families.  

	let me get your argument straight: if, after being told that 
they would not be punished if they did not shoot jews, germans such
as the members of police battalian 101, did nevertheless shoot jews, 
their behaviour should be explained by saying that they believed they
would, in fact, be punished?  so the original offer not to take part
was a lie?  on what evidence do you base this claim?  and how then do 
you explain the behaviour of those (below) who, after seeing that non-
participation in murder was not a cause for punishment, still murdered 
jews? 

>Do we realistically think no one would have been there to 
>take names, had anyone stepped out for moral reasons?  

	people not only _did_ step out of the firing squads, but they 
were _not_ punished for refusing to murder jews.  it is against this
behaviour that the rest of their fellow soldiers or policemen can be
measured.

>Do we, relatively safe 
>in the waning years of the century in places like the US, many parts of 
>Europe, the UK, and Canada, honestly have the right to criticize those who had 
>to live through such an horrific thing as the Nazi years?

	you, as a neo-nazi propagandist, have an obvious interest in
confusing the murderers (those who chose to shoot) with the victims
(those who were shot, with no choice).  those who died during the nazi
years, and those who survived attempts to kill them, are the objects
of my sympathy.  not those who killed, or who -- like you -- attempt 
to justify the killing.  i do not include myself in your "we", or in 
your twisted thinking that justifies the killers and at the same time 
makes demands for a "forgiveness" you don't mean.  what you mean is 
obliteration of the record, not the recognition of responsibility that
would precede any possibility of forgiveness.

> [...]

	annette



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