The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Mon Sep  2 20:59:41 PDT 1996
Article: 61775 of alt.revisionism
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist final exam
Date: 2 Sep 1996 14:06:55 -0700
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In article , Dave Harman OBC  wrote:
>In <505e4c$hfu@Networking.Stanford.EDU> rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) writes:

>>analysis of the relationhip beteween racism and totalitarianism in
>>Hitler's ideology snipped]

>Fuckhead.

I see that Skippy is a man of letters.

Regards,

Rich Green
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep  3 20:10:25 PDT 1996
Article: 61971 of alt.revisionism
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,can.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DEATH TO XTIAN SLIME (WAS Re: Where have all the racists gone? Griswold, LA Times story
Date: 3 Sep 1996 11:25:41 -0700
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In article <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Ursus Major  wrote:

> First it has been proven, although I'm afraid the studies are not 
>>close at hand at the moment, that the number of deaths are not nearly as high as once 
>>expected. The number of million has been thrown in the church's faces for century's by 
>>liberals and, more recently, various commercialized Pagan groups but it turns out the 
>>number isn't even close to that. 
>
>Of course your "proof" isn't readily available. It doesn't exist. But
>there does exist an exact record of a splendid auto-de-fe given by the
>Archbishop of Tolouse, in which THOUSANDS were burned on one day,
>and this went on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

I hope that I may be able to add some facts to this discussion by
including an essay I wrote awhile ago.

Regards,

Rich Green

HOW MANY WITCHES?
(v. 4.1 )

by Richard J. Green
copyright 1996 by the author

I recently received the following comment from a correspondent:

	Some nine million women were burned at the stake as witches for
	being pagans or healers or merely wise or powerful women, with
	only occasional and timid intervention.  I am pained by that
	holocaust as well.

My suspicion was that this number was greatly exaggerated.  The
reporting of history, however, can make us myopic of the immensity of
catastrophes that have happened to other people, and I had to admit
that I did not know that this number was an exaggeration.   I asked for
some more information and this correspondent responded:

	No, historians have not settled on a figure, nor is it likely
	that they ever will be able to do so.  No systematic records
	were kept, and most records that did exist have been lost.  I
	recall estimates from 7 million to 11 million.  I indicated
	with the word "some" the approximate nature and by grabbing a
	middle number tried to make the claim moderate.  The point
	isn't the exact number, however, but the intent to wipe out the
	old religion and any women of energy and influence (as well, no
	doubt, as some who may have been merely bad-tempered).    This
	attempt succeeded and we remain under the effects of its
	chilling of women's power.

	Most recently I have seen statistics presented in a series that
	was aired on PBS.  There were three shows, one of which was
	called "Burning Times"; I think that was probably the one which
	focussed on the holocaust of women.  (Yes, some men were burned
	too, as accomplices or as pagans or as defenders of the accused
	or intervenor in the persecution of the women.).

The victims of these trials died one by one.  I sincerely believe that
each of these deaths was a great tragedy.  To the people that died it
makes little difference whether millions were killed or only
thousands.  Yet, I believe it is important to report history as
accurately as is possible in such affairs.  The exaggeration of
atrocities tends to play into the hands of those who would deny the
horror of such events.  Because this information was not enough for me,
I decided to find out what I could for myself.  My correspondent's remark
that this history is poorly documented seems to be accurate as far as I
can find.  Nevertheless, I have decided to see what I can find.  As I am
not a historian my goal is to find out from historians what they
believe to be accurate rather than doing the necessary historical
research myself.  This investigation by its very nature is not
exhaustive and should be viewed as a report of what I have found out
rather than a thesis attempting to prove how many victims there
actually were.

The narrator, Martha Henry, in _The Burning Times_ claims that 85% of the
victims of the witch hunts were women and that thousands were burned [1].  
In this same film a writer, Thea Jensen, is interviewed.
She refers to the witch trials as a "women's holocaust" and states that
the upper estimate is of 9 million deaths.  Unfortunately, I could not
locate anything written by Thea Jensen, nor did the film give any
further citation for such a number.  I was therefore left to my own
devices.

Let us first turn our attention to England because that is where my
first source, C. L'Estrange Ewen, focuses[2].  It must be emphasized
that this author's research centered on only the home circuit where
records were available.  Nevertheless, we find in the introduction a
critique of others' estimates:

	It is perhaps idle to attempt to estimate the number of
	executions for witchcraft throughout the country.  Various
	writers have made suggestions some of which are widely
	fantastical.  On the Continent, where burnings were carried out
	wholesale, Kurtz has estimated that subsequent to the bull of
	Innocent VIII (1484) 300,000 witches were brought to the
	stake[3]*.  Such figures may well be true, but what is to be
	thought of Robert Steele's statements in _Social England_ [4]
	that 70,000 witches were hanged under the Act of James I.  One
	hundredth part of such a figure would obviously be an over-
	estimate.  One must hesitate also to accept the same writer's
	suggestion that in Scotland 8,000 women were burnt between the 
	years 1560 and 1600 [2].

Another writer, George Kittredge, also criticizes Steele's figure:

	I stand aghast at these figures.  There is no sense or reason in
	them.  No records have been published or examined which would
	justify the assertion that _a seventieth part_ of this monstrous
	number met their death in the period named.  As for the time
	from the passage of the act in 1604 till the death of James in
	1625, Mr. Steele would find it hard to make out an average of
	more than two or three executions a year [5].
	
Ewen proceeds to make an estimate:

	If records of 77 _per centum_ of the Home Circuit Assizes shew
	[sic] 112 executions, it is improbable that the total could
	have exceeded 150, or for the six circuits 900, and adding an
	equal number for independent courts, 1,800.  Such a total would
	be the result of allowing for 12 times the Essex activities of
	Hopkins, and it is therefore much in excess of fact, actually
	the number of executions for witchcraft in England from
	1542-1736 may be guessed at less [sic] than 1,000 [2].

Let us now turn our attention to the continent.  Levack makes estimates
of the deaths in all of early modern Europe (ca. 1450-1750):

	Even if we make allowances for trial records that have been lost
	or destroyed, the total number of persons who were actually
	tried for witchcraft throughout Europe probably did not greatly
	exceed 100,000.  About half of these persons lived in German
	lands within the Holy Roman Empire.  A project organized by
	by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930's to obtain information
	regarding persons tried for magic and witchcraft in the past
	yielded a file containing data from some 30,000 prosecutions,
	the great majority of which took place in Germany.  Since some
	of the entries in this file contain the names of more than one
	person, and since the records of many prosecutions are for one
	reason or another not included in the file, the total number
	of German prosecutions could easily have been 50,000 [6].

Levack counts trials in the rest of Europe as follows: Poland: 15,000;
Switzerland: 9,000; Lorraine, Franche-Comte, France and "a string of
autonomous states within the Empire": 10,000; the British Isles: 5,000
(Levack remarks that more than half of these were in Scotland; note that
nevertheless his estimate exceeds Ewen.); Scandinavia: 5,000; Hungary,
Transylvania, Moldavia, Wallachia, and Russia: probably not more than
4,000; Spain and the Italian States: 10,000 [6].

Levack comes to a total of 110,000 trials and estimates that, "European
communities executed about 60,000 witches during the early modern period
[6].  Another source Kors and Peters put a range around that number:

	It is impossible to calculate accurately the total number of
	convicted witches who were burned at the stake or hanged between
	the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries, but few students begin
	guessing below the range of fifty to one hundred thousand, and
	some would double or triple that figure [7].

After initially writing this report, I discovered some of the sources
for higher numbers.  Walker does indeed refer to a larger number:

	The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea 
	was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without
	admitting that God's word was wrong , and God's servants had
	committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of
	helpless people without cause [8].

Although Walker cites references for other aspects of her study,
this passage on page 1087-8 of Walker's work gives no reference for the
number in the millions.  In the section on witches and the section on
witchcraft, I find no other reference to a total number of victims.  The
work is large and perhaps she is more specific elsewhere, but I find no
cross reference to such a passage.  

By chance, however, I have come upon the source for the nine million.
While browsing in a bookstore, I came across Ann Llewellyn Barstow's
_Witchcraze_.  Barstow writes [9]:

	Among the feminist writers claiming millions of deaths is
	Andrea Dworkin.  Working from the only estimates available
	in the 1970's, Dworkin made the claim, "In Europe, women
	were persecuted as witches for nearly four hundred years,
	burned at the stake, perhaps as many as nine million of 
	them...."[10]  The "nearly four hundred years" almost
	doubles the years of actual major persecution (1560-1760), and
	the "nine million of them" is off by about 8,900,000.  Even
	further off the mark is the claim by certain German feminists
	that ten million women were killed [11].  Faced with such
	exaggereations, the historian is forced to make an estimate 
	based on the records, no matter how incomplete they may be.

Barstow is correct that Dworkin mentions the nine million figure:

	It is hard to arrive at a figure for the whole of the
	Continent and the British Isles, but the most responsible
	estimate would seem to be 9 million.  It may well, some
	authorities contend, have been more.  Nine million seems
	almost moderate when one realizes that the Blessed Reichhelm
	of Schongan at the end of the 13th century computed a number
	of the Devil-driven to be 1,758,064,176.  A conservative,
	Jean Weir, physician to the Duke of Cleves, estimated the
	number to be 7,409,127[10].

It should be noter that the latter two numbers are estimates of how many
witches there were whereas the 9 million is an estimate of executions.
The comparison of the figure of 9 million people executed with an
impossible 1.8 billion figure for the number of witches does not make it
a more reasonable figure.  Unfortunately, Dworkin does not tell us how
she arrives at the figure of 9 million.  Barstow seems to think that it
is Dworkin's estimate.  I don't think so.  For much of her history of
the witchcraze Dworkin relies on another source: _Witchcraft_ by
Pennethorne Hughes, originally written in 1952.   In this book we find
the curious comment:

	The number who died as witches is purely problematical.
	Someone has suggested nine millions.  It may be many more [12].

I suggest that Hughes may be the source of the 9 million figure.
Perhaps, "someone" suggested it before him, but unfortunately, he
doesn't say who.  I would be most interested in earlier references to
such a number if anyone comes upon them.

Preparing us for her own estimate Barstow writes:

	Wanting to record every known victim, to ensure that the
	historical record finally acknowledges her death, I offer
	the most complete record available at this time.

She critiques Levack:

	The most careful totals made so far are those of Brian Levack,
	who estimates 110,000  accusations and 60,000 deaths [6].
	I believe that though his are reasonable figures, they are
	almost certainly too low.

Barstow claims 200,000 accusations and 100,000 executions.  Anyone
interested in her method should consult appendix B of her book. 

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot
believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can
find out how and why someone believes it to be true.  I invite
correspondance in this regard.  I am especially interested in estimates
that cannot be traced back to Hughes.  In the mean time let's look at
the other sources.  These sources suggest a figure between 60,000 [6] and 
300,000 [2] deaths in all of Europe due to the witch hunts. History is an 
evolving field; as new evidence comes to light and models change, so by 
necessity do the estimates of such tragedies.   At the moment, I must 
say that I am persuaded by Barstow.

I believe the term holocaust is the proper term for the witch hunts as
many of the victims were literally burnt alive.  It should be noted that
these events occurred at a time when there was only one city in all of
Europe with over a million people, Paris.  The events must have been
devastating. I do not wish to compare people's pain: an unjust murder is an 
unjust murder regardless of how many other people are murdered.  It should 
be noted, however, lest we think times have changed, that the efficiency of 
murder in our own time would seem to dwarf that of early modern Europe.  In 
the early 1970's the Khmer Rouge Government murdered 2-3 million people in 
the the small nation of Cambodia.  It seems that if we have changed, the 
change is only in the efficiency with which we conduct our witch hunts.

____________________________________________________________________________
[1]	M. Armstrong, M. Pettigrew, S. Trow, _The Burning Times_,
		series:   Women and spirituality series ; 2
          National Film Board of Canada. Studio D.
	  Los Angeles, Calif. : Direct Cinema Ltd., 1990.
          1 video cassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
          ISBN 1-55974-330-1

[2]  C.E. Ewen, _Witch Hunting and Witch Trials: The
	Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of 1373 Assizes held for 
	the Home Circuit A.D. 1559-1736_, The Dial Press (New York), 1929

[3]  Kurz _Church History_, (ed. Nicoll), ii, 197 [citation in 2, I was
	unable to find this one ]

[4]  R. Steele ,_Social England_, (editor H.D. Traill), 1903, iv 120
	G. P. Putnam's sons (New York).

[5]  G.L. Kittredge, _Witchcraft in Old and New England_, 
	Russell & Russel (New York), 1956

[6]  B.P. Levack, _The Witch-Hunt_, Longman (New York), 1987

[7]  A.C. Kors and E. Peters, _Witchcraft in Europe 1100-1700_,
	University of Pennsylvania Press (Philadelphia), 1972

[8]  B.G. Walker, _The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_ 
	1st ed.  San Francisco : Harper & Row, c1983.

[9]  A. L. Barstow, _Witchcraze: A New History of The European
	Witch Hunts_
	London: Pandora 1995

[10]  A. Dworkin, _Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality_
	New York: Feminist Press, 1973.

[11]  G. Heinsohn and O. Steiger, "Warum wurden Hexum verbrannt?"
	_Der Spiegel_ 43 (1984):111-28.

[12]  P. Hughes, _Witchcraft_, London: Penguin, 1970

* numbering changed to fit my citation scheme.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep  4 08:49:08 PDT 1996
Article: 28293 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,can.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DEATH TO XTIAN SLIME (WAS Re: Where have all the racists gone? Griswold, LA Times story
Date: 3 Sep 1996 11:25:41 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
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In article <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Ursus Major  wrote:

> First it has been proven, although I'm afraid the studies are not 
>>close at hand at the moment, that the number of deaths are not nearly as high as once 
>>expected. The number of million has been thrown in the church's faces for century's by 
>>liberals and, more recently, various commercialized Pagan groups but it turns out the 
>>number isn't even close to that. 
>
>Of course your "proof" isn't readily available. It doesn't exist. But
>there does exist an exact record of a splendid auto-de-fe given by the
>Archbishop of Tolouse, in which THOUSANDS were burned on one day,
>and this went on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

I hope that I may be able to add some facts to this discussion by
including an essay I wrote awhile ago.

Regards,

Rich Green

HOW MANY WITCHES?
(v. 4.1 )

by Richard J. Green
copyright 1996 by the author

I recently received the following comment from a correspondent:

	Some nine million women were burned at the stake as witches for
	being pagans or healers or merely wise or powerful women, with
	only occasional and timid intervention.  I am pained by that
	holocaust as well.

My suspicion was that this number was greatly exaggerated.  The
reporting of history, however, can make us myopic of the immensity of
catastrophes that have happened to other people, and I had to admit
that I did not know that this number was an exaggeration.   I asked for
some more information and this correspondent responded:

	No, historians have not settled on a figure, nor is it likely
	that they ever will be able to do so.  No systematic records
	were kept, and most records that did exist have been lost.  I
	recall estimates from 7 million to 11 million.  I indicated
	with the word "some" the approximate nature and by grabbing a
	middle number tried to make the claim moderate.  The point
	isn't the exact number, however, but the intent to wipe out the
	old religion and any women of energy and influence (as well, no
	doubt, as some who may have been merely bad-tempered).    This
	attempt succeeded and we remain under the effects of its
	chilling of women's power.

	Most recently I have seen statistics presented in a series that
	was aired on PBS.  There were three shows, one of which was
	called "Burning Times"; I think that was probably the one which
	focussed on the holocaust of women.  (Yes, some men were burned
	too, as accomplices or as pagans or as defenders of the accused
	or intervenor in the persecution of the women.).

The victims of these trials died one by one.  I sincerely believe that
each of these deaths was a great tragedy.  To the people that died it
makes little difference whether millions were killed or only
thousands.  Yet, I believe it is important to report history as
accurately as is possible in such affairs.  The exaggeration of
atrocities tends to play into the hands of those who would deny the
horror of such events.  Because this information was not enough for me,
I decided to find out what I could for myself.  My correspondent's remark
that this history is poorly documented seems to be accurate as far as I
can find.  Nevertheless, I have decided to see what I can find.  As I am
not a historian my goal is to find out from historians what they
believe to be accurate rather than doing the necessary historical
research myself.  This investigation by its very nature is not
exhaustive and should be viewed as a report of what I have found out
rather than a thesis attempting to prove how many victims there
actually were.

The narrator, Martha Henry, in _The Burning Times_ claims that 85% of the
victims of the witch hunts were women and that thousands were burned [1].  
In this same film a writer, Thea Jensen, is interviewed.
She refers to the witch trials as a "women's holocaust" and states that
the upper estimate is of 9 million deaths.  Unfortunately, I could not
locate anything written by Thea Jensen, nor did the film give any
further citation for such a number.  I was therefore left to my own
devices.

Let us first turn our attention to England because that is where my
first source, C. L'Estrange Ewen, focuses[2].  It must be emphasized
that this author's research centered on only the home circuit where
records were available.  Nevertheless, we find in the introduction a
critique of others' estimates:

	It is perhaps idle to attempt to estimate the number of
	executions for witchcraft throughout the country.  Various
	writers have made suggestions some of which are widely
	fantastical.  On the Continent, where burnings were carried out
	wholesale, Kurtz has estimated that subsequent to the bull of
	Innocent VIII (1484) 300,000 witches were brought to the
	stake[3]*.  Such figures may well be true, but what is to be
	thought of Robert Steele's statements in _Social England_ [4]
	that 70,000 witches were hanged under the Act of James I.  One
	hundredth part of such a figure would obviously be an over-
	estimate.  One must hesitate also to accept the same writer's
	suggestion that in Scotland 8,000 women were burnt between the 
	years 1560 and 1600 [2].

Another writer, George Kittredge, also criticizes Steele's figure:

	I stand aghast at these figures.  There is no sense or reason in
	them.  No records have been published or examined which would
	justify the assertion that _a seventieth part_ of this monstrous
	number met their death in the period named.  As for the time
	from the passage of the act in 1604 till the death of James in
	1625, Mr. Steele would find it hard to make out an average of
	more than two or three executions a year [5].
	
Ewen proceeds to make an estimate:

	If records of 77 _per centum_ of the Home Circuit Assizes shew
	[sic] 112 executions, it is improbable that the total could
	have exceeded 150, or for the six circuits 900, and adding an
	equal number for independent courts, 1,800.  Such a total would
	be the result of allowing for 12 times the Essex activities of
	Hopkins, and it is therefore much in excess of fact, actually
	the number of executions for witchcraft in England from
	1542-1736 may be guessed at less [sic] than 1,000 [2].

Let us now turn our attention to the continent.  Levack makes estimates
of the deaths in all of early modern Europe (ca. 1450-1750):

	Even if we make allowances for trial records that have been lost
	or destroyed, the total number of persons who were actually
	tried for witchcraft throughout Europe probably did not greatly
	exceed 100,000.  About half of these persons lived in German
	lands within the Holy Roman Empire.  A project organized by
	by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930's to obtain information
	regarding persons tried for magic and witchcraft in the past
	yielded a file containing data from some 30,000 prosecutions,
	the great majority of which took place in Germany.  Since some
	of the entries in this file contain the names of more than one
	person, and since the records of many prosecutions are for one
	reason or another not included in the file, the total number
	of German prosecutions could easily have been 50,000 [6].

Levack counts trials in the rest of Europe as follows: Poland: 15,000;
Switzerland: 9,000; Lorraine, Franche-Comte, France and "a string of
autonomous states within the Empire": 10,000; the British Isles: 5,000
(Levack remarks that more than half of these were in Scotland; note that
nevertheless his estimate exceeds Ewen.); Scandinavia: 5,000; Hungary,
Transylvania, Moldavia, Wallachia, and Russia: probably not more than
4,000; Spain and the Italian States: 10,000 [6].

Levack comes to a total of 110,000 trials and estimates that, "European
communities executed about 60,000 witches during the early modern period
[6].  Another source Kors and Peters put a range around that number:

	It is impossible to calculate accurately the total number of
	convicted witches who were burned at the stake or hanged between
	the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries, but few students begin
	guessing below the range of fifty to one hundred thousand, and
	some would double or triple that figure [7].

After initially writing this report, I discovered some of the sources
for higher numbers.  Walker does indeed refer to a larger number:

	The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea 
	was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without
	admitting that God's word was wrong , and God's servants had
	committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of
	helpless people without cause [8].

Although Walker cites references for other aspects of her study,
this passage on page 1087-8 of Walker's work gives no reference for the
number in the millions.  In the section on witches and the section on
witchcraft, I find no other reference to a total number of victims.  The
work is large and perhaps she is more specific elsewhere, but I find no
cross reference to such a passage.  

By chance, however, I have come upon the source for the nine million.
While browsing in a bookstore, I came across Ann Llewellyn Barstow's
_Witchcraze_.  Barstow writes [9]:

	Among the feminist writers claiming millions of deaths is
	Andrea Dworkin.  Working from the only estimates available
	in the 1970's, Dworkin made the claim, "In Europe, women
	were persecuted as witches for nearly four hundred years,
	burned at the stake, perhaps as many as nine million of 
	them...."[10]  The "nearly four hundred years" almost
	doubles the years of actual major persecution (1560-1760), and
	the "nine million of them" is off by about 8,900,000.  Even
	further off the mark is the claim by certain German feminists
	that ten million women were killed [11].  Faced with such
	exaggereations, the historian is forced to make an estimate 
	based on the records, no matter how incomplete they may be.

Barstow is correct that Dworkin mentions the nine million figure:

	It is hard to arrive at a figure for the whole of the
	Continent and the British Isles, but the most responsible
	estimate would seem to be 9 million.  It may well, some
	authorities contend, have been more.  Nine million seems
	almost moderate when one realizes that the Blessed Reichhelm
	of Schongan at the end of the 13th century computed a number
	of the Devil-driven to be 1,758,064,176.  A conservative,
	Jean Weir, physician to the Duke of Cleves, estimated the
	number to be 7,409,127[10].

It should be noter that the latter two numbers are estimates of how many
witches there were whereas the 9 million is an estimate of executions.
The comparison of the figure of 9 million people executed with an
impossible 1.8 billion figure for the number of witches does not make it
a more reasonable figure.  Unfortunately, Dworkin does not tell us how
she arrives at the figure of 9 million.  Barstow seems to think that it
is Dworkin's estimate.  I don't think so.  For much of her history of
the witchcraze Dworkin relies on another source: _Witchcraft_ by
Pennethorne Hughes, originally written in 1952.   In this book we find
the curious comment:

	The number who died as witches is purely problematical.
	Someone has suggested nine millions.  It may be many more [12].

I suggest that Hughes may be the source of the 9 million figure.
Perhaps, "someone" suggested it before him, but unfortunately, he
doesn't say who.  I would be most interested in earlier references to
such a number if anyone comes upon them.

Preparing us for her own estimate Barstow writes:

	Wanting to record every known victim, to ensure that the
	historical record finally acknowledges her death, I offer
	the most complete record available at this time.

She critiques Levack:

	The most careful totals made so far are those of Brian Levack,
	who estimates 110,000  accusations and 60,000 deaths [6].
	I believe that though his are reasonable figures, they are
	almost certainly too low.

Barstow claims 200,000 accusations and 100,000 executions.  Anyone
interested in her method should consult appendix B of her book. 

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot
believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can
find out how and why someone believes it to be true.  I invite
correspondance in this regard.  I am especially interested in estimates
that cannot be traced back to Hughes.  In the mean time let's look at
the other sources.  These sources suggest a figure between 60,000 [6] and 
300,000 [2] deaths in all of Europe due to the witch hunts. History is an 
evolving field; as new evidence comes to light and models change, so by 
necessity do the estimates of such tragedies.   At the moment, I must 
say that I am persuaded by Barstow.

I believe the term holocaust is the proper term for the witch hunts as
many of the victims were literally burnt alive.  It should be noted that
these events occurred at a time when there was only one city in all of
Europe with over a million people, Paris.  The events must have been
devastating. I do not wish to compare people's pain: an unjust murder is an 
unjust murder regardless of how many other people are murdered.  It should 
be noted, however, lest we think times have changed, that the efficiency of 
murder in our own time would seem to dwarf that of early modern Europe.  In 
the early 1970's the Khmer Rouge Government murdered 2-3 million people in 
the the small nation of Cambodia.  It seems that if we have changed, the 
change is only in the efficiency with which we conduct our witch hunts.

____________________________________________________________________________
[1]	M. Armstrong, M. Pettigrew, S. Trow, _The Burning Times_,
		series:   Women and spirituality series ; 2
          National Film Board of Canada. Studio D.
	  Los Angeles, Calif. : Direct Cinema Ltd., 1990.
          1 video cassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
          ISBN 1-55974-330-1

[2]  C.E. Ewen, _Witch Hunting and Witch Trials: The
	Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of 1373 Assizes held for 
	the Home Circuit A.D. 1559-1736_, The Dial Press (New York), 1929

[3]  Kurz _Church History_, (ed. Nicoll), ii, 197 [citation in 2, I was
	unable to find this one ]

[4]  R. Steele ,_Social England_, (editor H.D. Traill), 1903, iv 120
	G. P. Putnam's sons (New York).

[5]  G.L. Kittredge, _Witchcraft in Old and New England_, 
	Russell & Russel (New York), 1956

[6]  B.P. Levack, _The Witch-Hunt_, Longman (New York), 1987

[7]  A.C. Kors and E. Peters, _Witchcraft in Europe 1100-1700_,
	University of Pennsylvania Press (Philadelphia), 1972

[8]  B.G. Walker, _The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_ 
	1st ed.  San Francisco : Harper & Row, c1983.

[9]  A. L. Barstow, _Witchcraze: A New History of The European
	Witch Hunts_
	London: Pandora 1995

[10]  A. Dworkin, _Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality_
	New York: Feminist Press, 1973.

[11]  G. Heinsohn and O. Steiger, "Warum wurden Hexum verbrannt?"
	_Der Spiegel_ 43 (1984):111-28.

[12]  P. Hughes, _Witchcraft_, London: Penguin, 1970

* numbering changed to fit my citation scheme.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep  4 08:51:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41805 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,can.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DEATH TO XTIAN SLIME (WAS Re: Where have all the racists gone? Griswold, LA Times story
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In article <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Ursus Major  wrote:

> First it has been proven, although I'm afraid the studies are not 
>>close at hand at the moment, that the number of deaths are not nearly as high as once 
>>expected. The number of million has been thrown in the church's faces for century's by 
>>liberals and, more recently, various commercialized Pagan groups but it turns out the 
>>number isn't even close to that. 
>
>Of course your "proof" isn't readily available. It doesn't exist. But
>there does exist an exact record of a splendid auto-de-fe given by the
>Archbishop of Tolouse, in which THOUSANDS were burned on one day,
>and this went on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

I hope that I may be able to add some facts to this discussion by
including an essay I wrote awhile ago.

Regards,

Rich Green

HOW MANY WITCHES?
(v. 4.1 )

by Richard J. Green
copyright 1996 by the author

I recently received the following comment from a correspondent:

	Some nine million women were burned at the stake as witches for
	being pagans or healers or merely wise or powerful women, with
	only occasional and timid intervention.  I am pained by that
	holocaust as well.

My suspicion was that this number was greatly exaggerated.  The
reporting of history, however, can make us myopic of the immensity of
catastrophes that have happened to other people, and I had to admit
that I did not know that this number was an exaggeration.   I asked for
some more information and this correspondent responded:

	No, historians have not settled on a figure, nor is it likely
	that they ever will be able to do so.  No systematic records
	were kept, and most records that did exist have been lost.  I
	recall estimates from 7 million to 11 million.  I indicated
	with the word "some" the approximate nature and by grabbing a
	middle number tried to make the claim moderate.  The point
	isn't the exact number, however, but the intent to wipe out the
	old religion and any women of energy and influence (as well, no
	doubt, as some who may have been merely bad-tempered).    This
	attempt succeeded and we remain under the effects of its
	chilling of women's power.

	Most recently I have seen statistics presented in a series that
	was aired on PBS.  There were three shows, one of which was
	called "Burning Times"; I think that was probably the one which
	focussed on the holocaust of women.  (Yes, some men were burned
	too, as accomplices or as pagans or as defenders of the accused
	or intervenor in the persecution of the women.).

The victims of these trials died one by one.  I sincerely believe that
each of these deaths was a great tragedy.  To the people that died it
makes little difference whether millions were killed or only
thousands.  Yet, I believe it is important to report history as
accurately as is possible in such affairs.  The exaggeration of
atrocities tends to play into the hands of those who would deny the
horror of such events.  Because this information was not enough for me,
I decided to find out what I could for myself.  My correspondent's remark
that this history is poorly documented seems to be accurate as far as I
can find.  Nevertheless, I have decided to see what I can find.  As I am
not a historian my goal is to find out from historians what they
believe to be accurate rather than doing the necessary historical
research myself.  This investigation by its very nature is not
exhaustive and should be viewed as a report of what I have found out
rather than a thesis attempting to prove how many victims there
actually were.

The narrator, Martha Henry, in _The Burning Times_ claims that 85% of the
victims of the witch hunts were women and that thousands were burned [1].  
In this same film a writer, Thea Jensen, is interviewed.
She refers to the witch trials as a "women's holocaust" and states that
the upper estimate is of 9 million deaths.  Unfortunately, I could not
locate anything written by Thea Jensen, nor did the film give any
further citation for such a number.  I was therefore left to my own
devices.

Let us first turn our attention to England because that is where my
first source, C. L'Estrange Ewen, focuses[2].  It must be emphasized
that this author's research centered on only the home circuit where
records were available.  Nevertheless, we find in the introduction a
critique of others' estimates:

	It is perhaps idle to attempt to estimate the number of
	executions for witchcraft throughout the country.  Various
	writers have made suggestions some of which are widely
	fantastical.  On the Continent, where burnings were carried out
	wholesale, Kurtz has estimated that subsequent to the bull of
	Innocent VIII (1484) 300,000 witches were brought to the
	stake[3]*.  Such figures may well be true, but what is to be
	thought of Robert Steele's statements in _Social England_ [4]
	that 70,000 witches were hanged under the Act of James I.  One
	hundredth part of such a figure would obviously be an over-
	estimate.  One must hesitate also to accept the same writer's
	suggestion that in Scotland 8,000 women were burnt between the 
	years 1560 and 1600 [2].

Another writer, George Kittredge, also criticizes Steele's figure:

	I stand aghast at these figures.  There is no sense or reason in
	them.  No records have been published or examined which would
	justify the assertion that _a seventieth part_ of this monstrous
	number met their death in the period named.  As for the time
	from the passage of the act in 1604 till the death of James in
	1625, Mr. Steele would find it hard to make out an average of
	more than two or three executions a year [5].
	
Ewen proceeds to make an estimate:

	If records of 77 _per centum_ of the Home Circuit Assizes shew
	[sic] 112 executions, it is improbable that the total could
	have exceeded 150, or for the six circuits 900, and adding an
	equal number for independent courts, 1,800.  Such a total would
	be the result of allowing for 12 times the Essex activities of
	Hopkins, and it is therefore much in excess of fact, actually
	the number of executions for witchcraft in England from
	1542-1736 may be guessed at less [sic] than 1,000 [2].

Let us now turn our attention to the continent.  Levack makes estimates
of the deaths in all of early modern Europe (ca. 1450-1750):

	Even if we make allowances for trial records that have been lost
	or destroyed, the total number of persons who were actually
	tried for witchcraft throughout Europe probably did not greatly
	exceed 100,000.  About half of these persons lived in German
	lands within the Holy Roman Empire.  A project organized by
	by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930's to obtain information
	regarding persons tried for magic and witchcraft in the past
	yielded a file containing data from some 30,000 prosecutions,
	the great majority of which took place in Germany.  Since some
	of the entries in this file contain the names of more than one
	person, and since the records of many prosecutions are for one
	reason or another not included in the file, the total number
	of German prosecutions could easily have been 50,000 [6].

Levack counts trials in the rest of Europe as follows: Poland: 15,000;
Switzerland: 9,000; Lorraine, Franche-Comte, France and "a string of
autonomous states within the Empire": 10,000; the British Isles: 5,000
(Levack remarks that more than half of these were in Scotland; note that
nevertheless his estimate exceeds Ewen.); Scandinavia: 5,000; Hungary,
Transylvania, Moldavia, Wallachia, and Russia: probably not more than
4,000; Spain and the Italian States: 10,000 [6].

Levack comes to a total of 110,000 trials and estimates that, "European
communities executed about 60,000 witches during the early modern period
[6].  Another source Kors and Peters put a range around that number:

	It is impossible to calculate accurately the total number of
	convicted witches who were burned at the stake or hanged between
	the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries, but few students begin
	guessing below the range of fifty to one hundred thousand, and
	some would double or triple that figure [7].

After initially writing this report, I discovered some of the sources
for higher numbers.  Walker does indeed refer to a larger number:

	The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea 
	was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without
	admitting that God's word was wrong , and God's servants had
	committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of
	helpless people without cause [8].

Although Walker cites references for other aspects of her study,
this passage on page 1087-8 of Walker's work gives no reference for the
number in the millions.  In the section on witches and the section on
witchcraft, I find no other reference to a total number of victims.  The
work is large and perhaps she is more specific elsewhere, but I find no
cross reference to such a passage.  

By chance, however, I have come upon the source for the nine million.
While browsing in a bookstore, I came across Ann Llewellyn Barstow's
_Witchcraze_.  Barstow writes [9]:

	Among the feminist writers claiming millions of deaths is
	Andrea Dworkin.  Working from the only estimates available
	in the 1970's, Dworkin made the claim, "In Europe, women
	were persecuted as witches for nearly four hundred years,
	burned at the stake, perhaps as many as nine million of 
	them...."[10]  The "nearly four hundred years" almost
	doubles the years of actual major persecution (1560-1760), and
	the "nine million of them" is off by about 8,900,000.  Even
	further off the mark is the claim by certain German feminists
	that ten million women were killed [11].  Faced with such
	exaggereations, the historian is forced to make an estimate 
	based on the records, no matter how incomplete they may be.

Barstow is correct that Dworkin mentions the nine million figure:

	It is hard to arrive at a figure for the whole of the
	Continent and the British Isles, but the most responsible
	estimate would seem to be 9 million.  It may well, some
	authorities contend, have been more.  Nine million seems
	almost moderate when one realizes that the Blessed Reichhelm
	of Schongan at the end of the 13th century computed a number
	of the Devil-driven to be 1,758,064,176.  A conservative,
	Jean Weir, physician to the Duke of Cleves, estimated the
	number to be 7,409,127[10].

It should be noter that the latter two numbers are estimates of how many
witches there were whereas the 9 million is an estimate of executions.
The comparison of the figure of 9 million people executed with an
impossible 1.8 billion figure for the number of witches does not make it
a more reasonable figure.  Unfortunately, Dworkin does not tell us how
she arrives at the figure of 9 million.  Barstow seems to think that it
is Dworkin's estimate.  I don't think so.  For much of her history of
the witchcraze Dworkin relies on another source: _Witchcraft_ by
Pennethorne Hughes, originally written in 1952.   In this book we find
the curious comment:

	The number who died as witches is purely problematical.
	Someone has suggested nine millions.  It may be many more [12].

I suggest that Hughes may be the source of the 9 million figure.
Perhaps, "someone" suggested it before him, but unfortunately, he
doesn't say who.  I would be most interested in earlier references to
such a number if anyone comes upon them.

Preparing us for her own estimate Barstow writes:

	Wanting to record every known victim, to ensure that the
	historical record finally acknowledges her death, I offer
	the most complete record available at this time.

She critiques Levack:

	The most careful totals made so far are those of Brian Levack,
	who estimates 110,000  accusations and 60,000 deaths [6].
	I believe that though his are reasonable figures, they are
	almost certainly too low.

Barstow claims 200,000 accusations and 100,000 executions.  Anyone
interested in her method should consult appendix B of her book. 

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot
believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can
find out how and why someone believes it to be true.  I invite
correspondance in this regard.  I am especially interested in estimates
that cannot be traced back to Hughes.  In the mean time let's look at
the other sources.  These sources suggest a figure between 60,000 [6] and 
300,000 [2] deaths in all of Europe due to the witch hunts. History is an 
evolving field; as new evidence comes to light and models change, so by 
necessity do the estimates of such tragedies.   At the moment, I must 
say that I am persuaded by Barstow.

I believe the term holocaust is the proper term for the witch hunts as
many of the victims were literally burnt alive.  It should be noted that
these events occurred at a time when there was only one city in all of
Europe with over a million people, Paris.  The events must have been
devastating. I do not wish to compare people's pain: an unjust murder is an 
unjust murder regardless of how many other people are murdered.  It should 
be noted, however, lest we think times have changed, that the efficiency of 
murder in our own time would seem to dwarf that of early modern Europe.  In 
the early 1970's the Khmer Rouge Government murdered 2-3 million people in 
the the small nation of Cambodia.  It seems that if we have changed, the 
change is only in the efficiency with which we conduct our witch hunts.

____________________________________________________________________________
[1]	M. Armstrong, M. Pettigrew, S. Trow, _The Burning Times_,
		series:   Women and spirituality series ; 2
          National Film Board of Canada. Studio D.
	  Los Angeles, Calif. : Direct Cinema Ltd., 1990.
          1 video cassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
          ISBN 1-55974-330-1

[2]  C.E. Ewen, _Witch Hunting and Witch Trials: The
	Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of 1373 Assizes held for 
	the Home Circuit A.D. 1559-1736_, The Dial Press (New York), 1929

[3]  Kurz _Church History_, (ed. Nicoll), ii, 197 [citation in 2, I was
	unable to find this one ]

[4]  R. Steele ,_Social England_, (editor H.D. Traill), 1903, iv 120
	G. P. Putnam's sons (New York).

[5]  G.L. Kittredge, _Witchcraft in Old and New England_, 
	Russell & Russel (New York), 1956

[6]  B.P. Levack, _The Witch-Hunt_, Longman (New York), 1987

[7]  A.C. Kors and E. Peters, _Witchcraft in Europe 1100-1700_,
	University of Pennsylvania Press (Philadelphia), 1972

[8]  B.G. Walker, _The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_ 
	1st ed.  San Francisco : Harper & Row, c1983.

[9]  A. L. Barstow, _Witchcraze: A New History of The European
	Witch Hunts_
	London: Pandora 1995

[10]  A. Dworkin, _Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality_
	New York: Feminist Press, 1973.

[11]  G. Heinsohn and O. Steiger, "Warum wurden Hexum verbrannt?"
	_Der Spiegel_ 43 (1984):111-28.

[12]  P. Hughes, _Witchcraft_, London: Penguin, 1970

* numbering changed to fit my citation scheme.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep  4 13:59:54 PDT 1996
Article: 69064 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,can.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DEATH TO XTIAN SLIME (WAS Re: Where have all the racists gone? Griswold, LA Times story
Date: 3 Sep 1996 11:25:41 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 315
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References: <4vo52r$or2@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <3224fbb3.98233252@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3226A16F.2487@globalserve.net> <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Ursus Major  wrote:

> First it has been proven, although I'm afraid the studies are not 
>>close at hand at the moment, that the number of deaths are not nearly as high as once 
>>expected. The number of million has been thrown in the church's faces for century's by 
>>liberals and, more recently, various commercialized Pagan groups but it turns out the 
>>number isn't even close to that. 
>
>Of course your "proof" isn't readily available. It doesn't exist. But
>there does exist an exact record of a splendid auto-de-fe given by the
>Archbishop of Tolouse, in which THOUSANDS were burned on one day,
>and this went on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

I hope that I may be able to add some facts to this discussion by
including an essay I wrote awhile ago.

Regards,

Rich Green

HOW MANY WITCHES?
(v. 4.1 )

by Richard J. Green
copyright 1996 by the author

I recently received the following comment from a correspondent:

	Some nine million women were burned at the stake as witches for
	being pagans or healers or merely wise or powerful women, with
	only occasional and timid intervention.  I am pained by that
	holocaust as well.

My suspicion was that this number was greatly exaggerated.  The
reporting of history, however, can make us myopic of the immensity of
catastrophes that have happened to other people, and I had to admit
that I did not know that this number was an exaggeration.   I asked for
some more information and this correspondent responded:

	No, historians have not settled on a figure, nor is it likely
	that they ever will be able to do so.  No systematic records
	were kept, and most records that did exist have been lost.  I
	recall estimates from 7 million to 11 million.  I indicated
	with the word "some" the approximate nature and by grabbing a
	middle number tried to make the claim moderate.  The point
	isn't the exact number, however, but the intent to wipe out the
	old religion and any women of energy and influence (as well, no
	doubt, as some who may have been merely bad-tempered).    This
	attempt succeeded and we remain under the effects of its
	chilling of women's power.

	Most recently I have seen statistics presented in a series that
	was aired on PBS.  There were three shows, one of which was
	called "Burning Times"; I think that was probably the one which
	focussed on the holocaust of women.  (Yes, some men were burned
	too, as accomplices or as pagans or as defenders of the accused
	or intervenor in the persecution of the women.).

The victims of these trials died one by one.  I sincerely believe that
each of these deaths was a great tragedy.  To the people that died it
makes little difference whether millions were killed or only
thousands.  Yet, I believe it is important to report history as
accurately as is possible in such affairs.  The exaggeration of
atrocities tends to play into the hands of those who would deny the
horror of such events.  Because this information was not enough for me,
I decided to find out what I could for myself.  My correspondent's remark
that this history is poorly documented seems to be accurate as far as I
can find.  Nevertheless, I have decided to see what I can find.  As I am
not a historian my goal is to find out from historians what they
believe to be accurate rather than doing the necessary historical
research myself.  This investigation by its very nature is not
exhaustive and should be viewed as a report of what I have found out
rather than a thesis attempting to prove how many victims there
actually were.

The narrator, Martha Henry, in _The Burning Times_ claims that 85% of the
victims of the witch hunts were women and that thousands were burned [1].  
In this same film a writer, Thea Jensen, is interviewed.
She refers to the witch trials as a "women's holocaust" and states that
the upper estimate is of 9 million deaths.  Unfortunately, I could not
locate anything written by Thea Jensen, nor did the film give any
further citation for such a number.  I was therefore left to my own
devices.

Let us first turn our attention to England because that is where my
first source, C. L'Estrange Ewen, focuses[2].  It must be emphasized
that this author's research centered on only the home circuit where
records were available.  Nevertheless, we find in the introduction a
critique of others' estimates:

	It is perhaps idle to attempt to estimate the number of
	executions for witchcraft throughout the country.  Various
	writers have made suggestions some of which are widely
	fantastical.  On the Continent, where burnings were carried out
	wholesale, Kurtz has estimated that subsequent to the bull of
	Innocent VIII (1484) 300,000 witches were brought to the
	stake[3]*.  Such figures may well be true, but what is to be
	thought of Robert Steele's statements in _Social England_ [4]
	that 70,000 witches were hanged under the Act of James I.  One
	hundredth part of such a figure would obviously be an over-
	estimate.  One must hesitate also to accept the same writer's
	suggestion that in Scotland 8,000 women were burnt between the 
	years 1560 and 1600 [2].

Another writer, George Kittredge, also criticizes Steele's figure:

	I stand aghast at these figures.  There is no sense or reason in
	them.  No records have been published or examined which would
	justify the assertion that _a seventieth part_ of this monstrous
	number met their death in the period named.  As for the time
	from the passage of the act in 1604 till the death of James in
	1625, Mr. Steele would find it hard to make out an average of
	more than two or three executions a year [5].
	
Ewen proceeds to make an estimate:

	If records of 77 _per centum_ of the Home Circuit Assizes shew
	[sic] 112 executions, it is improbable that the total could
	have exceeded 150, or for the six circuits 900, and adding an
	equal number for independent courts, 1,800.  Such a total would
	be the result of allowing for 12 times the Essex activities of
	Hopkins, and it is therefore much in excess of fact, actually
	the number of executions for witchcraft in England from
	1542-1736 may be guessed at less [sic] than 1,000 [2].

Let us now turn our attention to the continent.  Levack makes estimates
of the deaths in all of early modern Europe (ca. 1450-1750):

	Even if we make allowances for trial records that have been lost
	or destroyed, the total number of persons who were actually
	tried for witchcraft throughout Europe probably did not greatly
	exceed 100,000.  About half of these persons lived in German
	lands within the Holy Roman Empire.  A project organized by
	by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930's to obtain information
	regarding persons tried for magic and witchcraft in the past
	yielded a file containing data from some 30,000 prosecutions,
	the great majority of which took place in Germany.  Since some
	of the entries in this file contain the names of more than one
	person, and since the records of many prosecutions are for one
	reason or another not included in the file, the total number
	of German prosecutions could easily have been 50,000 [6].

Levack counts trials in the rest of Europe as follows: Poland: 15,000;
Switzerland: 9,000; Lorraine, Franche-Comte, France and "a string of
autonomous states within the Empire": 10,000; the British Isles: 5,000
(Levack remarks that more than half of these were in Scotland; note that
nevertheless his estimate exceeds Ewen.); Scandinavia: 5,000; Hungary,
Transylvania, Moldavia, Wallachia, and Russia: probably not more than
4,000; Spain and the Italian States: 10,000 [6].

Levack comes to a total of 110,000 trials and estimates that, "European
communities executed about 60,000 witches during the early modern period
[6].  Another source Kors and Peters put a range around that number:

	It is impossible to calculate accurately the total number of
	convicted witches who were burned at the stake or hanged between
	the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries, but few students begin
	guessing below the range of fifty to one hundred thousand, and
	some would double or triple that figure [7].

After initially writing this report, I discovered some of the sources
for higher numbers.  Walker does indeed refer to a larger number:

	The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea 
	was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without
	admitting that God's word was wrong , and God's servants had
	committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of
	helpless people without cause [8].

Although Walker cites references for other aspects of her study,
this passage on page 1087-8 of Walker's work gives no reference for the
number in the millions.  In the section on witches and the section on
witchcraft, I find no other reference to a total number of victims.  The
work is large and perhaps she is more specific elsewhere, but I find no
cross reference to such a passage.  

By chance, however, I have come upon the source for the nine million.
While browsing in a bookstore, I came across Ann Llewellyn Barstow's
_Witchcraze_.  Barstow writes [9]:

	Among the feminist writers claiming millions of deaths is
	Andrea Dworkin.  Working from the only estimates available
	in the 1970's, Dworkin made the claim, "In Europe, women
	were persecuted as witches for nearly four hundred years,
	burned at the stake, perhaps as many as nine million of 
	them...."[10]  The "nearly four hundred years" almost
	doubles the years of actual major persecution (1560-1760), and
	the "nine million of them" is off by about 8,900,000.  Even
	further off the mark is the claim by certain German feminists
	that ten million women were killed [11].  Faced with such
	exaggereations, the historian is forced to make an estimate 
	based on the records, no matter how incomplete they may be.

Barstow is correct that Dworkin mentions the nine million figure:

	It is hard to arrive at a figure for the whole of the
	Continent and the British Isles, but the most responsible
	estimate would seem to be 9 million.  It may well, some
	authorities contend, have been more.  Nine million seems
	almost moderate when one realizes that the Blessed Reichhelm
	of Schongan at the end of the 13th century computed a number
	of the Devil-driven to be 1,758,064,176.  A conservative,
	Jean Weir, physician to the Duke of Cleves, estimated the
	number to be 7,409,127[10].

It should be noter that the latter two numbers are estimates of how many
witches there were whereas the 9 million is an estimate of executions.
The comparison of the figure of 9 million people executed with an
impossible 1.8 billion figure for the number of witches does not make it
a more reasonable figure.  Unfortunately, Dworkin does not tell us how
she arrives at the figure of 9 million.  Barstow seems to think that it
is Dworkin's estimate.  I don't think so.  For much of her history of
the witchcraze Dworkin relies on another source: _Witchcraft_ by
Pennethorne Hughes, originally written in 1952.   In this book we find
the curious comment:

	The number who died as witches is purely problematical.
	Someone has suggested nine millions.  It may be many more [12].

I suggest that Hughes may be the source of the 9 million figure.
Perhaps, "someone" suggested it before him, but unfortunately, he
doesn't say who.  I would be most interested in earlier references to
such a number if anyone comes upon them.

Preparing us for her own estimate Barstow writes:

	Wanting to record every known victim, to ensure that the
	historical record finally acknowledges her death, I offer
	the most complete record available at this time.

She critiques Levack:

	The most careful totals made so far are those of Brian Levack,
	who estimates 110,000  accusations and 60,000 deaths [6].
	I believe that though his are reasonable figures, they are
	almost certainly too low.

Barstow claims 200,000 accusations and 100,000 executions.  Anyone
interested in her method should consult appendix B of her book. 

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot
believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can
find out how and why someone believes it to be true.  I invite
correspondance in this regard.  I am especially interested in estimates
that cannot be traced back to Hughes.  In the mean time let's look at
the other sources.  These sources suggest a figure between 60,000 [6] and 
300,000 [2] deaths in all of Europe due to the witch hunts. History is an 
evolving field; as new evidence comes to light and models change, so by 
necessity do the estimates of such tragedies.   At the moment, I must 
say that I am persuaded by Barstow.

I believe the term holocaust is the proper term for the witch hunts as
many of the victims were literally burnt alive.  It should be noted that
these events occurred at a time when there was only one city in all of
Europe with over a million people, Paris.  The events must have been
devastating. I do not wish to compare people's pain: an unjust murder is an 
unjust murder regardless of how many other people are murdered.  It should 
be noted, however, lest we think times have changed, that the efficiency of 
murder in our own time would seem to dwarf that of early modern Europe.  In 
the early 1970's the Khmer Rouge Government murdered 2-3 million people in 
the the small nation of Cambodia.  It seems that if we have changed, the 
change is only in the efficiency with which we conduct our witch hunts.

____________________________________________________________________________
[1]	M. Armstrong, M. Pettigrew, S. Trow, _The Burning Times_,
		series:   Women and spirituality series ; 2
          National Film Board of Canada. Studio D.
	  Los Angeles, Calif. : Direct Cinema Ltd., 1990.
          1 video cassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
          ISBN 1-55974-330-1

[2]  C.E. Ewen, _Witch Hunting and Witch Trials: The
	Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of 1373 Assizes held for 
	the Home Circuit A.D. 1559-1736_, The Dial Press (New York), 1929

[3]  Kurz _Church History_, (ed. Nicoll), ii, 197 [citation in 2, I was
	unable to find this one ]

[4]  R. Steele ,_Social England_, (editor H.D. Traill), 1903, iv 120
	G. P. Putnam's sons (New York).

[5]  G.L. Kittredge, _Witchcraft in Old and New England_, 
	Russell & Russel (New York), 1956

[6]  B.P. Levack, _The Witch-Hunt_, Longman (New York), 1987

[7]  A.C. Kors and E. Peters, _Witchcraft in Europe 1100-1700_,
	University of Pennsylvania Press (Philadelphia), 1972

[8]  B.G. Walker, _The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_ 
	1st ed.  San Francisco : Harper & Row, c1983.

[9]  A. L. Barstow, _Witchcraze: A New History of The European
	Witch Hunts_
	London: Pandora 1995

[10]  A. Dworkin, _Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality_
	New York: Feminist Press, 1973.

[11]  G. Heinsohn and O. Steiger, "Warum wurden Hexum verbrannt?"
	_Der Spiegel_ 43 (1984):111-28.

[12]  P. Hughes, _Witchcraft_, London: Penguin, 1970

* numbering changed to fit my citation scheme.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep  4 21:10:25 PDT 1996
Article: 62428 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: 4 Sep 1996 10:52:15 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <50kfkf$vb@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199620341936@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
>>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
>>>of a website and a "director"?
>>
>>    Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so
>>    we let him call himself "the Director."
>>
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>
>	"We"?  Who is "we"?

The IJC, of course.  Don't you know that we control Nizkor?  We control
the IHR too only they don't know it.

I thought Mr. Moran was one of us; I guess not.  I need a new decoder
ring.

Regards,

ZOG#43
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep  4 21:58:45 PDT 1996
Article: 53064 of alt.discrimination
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,can.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DEATH TO XTIAN SLIME (WAS Re: Where have all the racists gone? Griswold, LA Times story
Date: 3 Sep 1996 11:25:41 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
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References: <4vo52r$or2@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <3224fbb3.98233252@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3226A16F.2487@globalserve.net> <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <3228cec1.241911724@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Ursus Major  wrote:

> First it has been proven, although I'm afraid the studies are not 
>>close at hand at the moment, that the number of deaths are not nearly as high as once 
>>expected. The number of million has been thrown in the church's faces for century's by 
>>liberals and, more recently, various commercialized Pagan groups but it turns out the 
>>number isn't even close to that. 
>
>Of course your "proof" isn't readily available. It doesn't exist. But
>there does exist an exact record of a splendid auto-de-fe given by the
>Archbishop of Tolouse, in which THOUSANDS were burned on one day,
>and this went on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

I hope that I may be able to add some facts to this discussion by
including an essay I wrote awhile ago.

Regards,

Rich Green

HOW MANY WITCHES?
(v. 4.1 )

by Richard J. Green
copyright 1996 by the author

I recently received the following comment from a correspondent:

	Some nine million women were burned at the stake as witches for
	being pagans or healers or merely wise or powerful women, with
	only occasional and timid intervention.  I am pained by that
	holocaust as well.

My suspicion was that this number was greatly exaggerated.  The
reporting of history, however, can make us myopic of the immensity of
catastrophes that have happened to other people, and I had to admit
that I did not know that this number was an exaggeration.   I asked for
some more information and this correspondent responded:

	No, historians have not settled on a figure, nor is it likely
	that they ever will be able to do so.  No systematic records
	were kept, and most records that did exist have been lost.  I
	recall estimates from 7 million to 11 million.  I indicated
	with the word "some" the approximate nature and by grabbing a
	middle number tried to make the claim moderate.  The point
	isn't the exact number, however, but the intent to wipe out the
	old religion and any women of energy and influence (as well, no
	doubt, as some who may have been merely bad-tempered).    This
	attempt succeeded and we remain under the effects of its
	chilling of women's power.

	Most recently I have seen statistics presented in a series that
	was aired on PBS.  There were three shows, one of which was
	called "Burning Times"; I think that was probably the one which
	focussed on the holocaust of women.  (Yes, some men were burned
	too, as accomplices or as pagans or as defenders of the accused
	or intervenor in the persecution of the women.).

The victims of these trials died one by one.  I sincerely believe that
each of these deaths was a great tragedy.  To the people that died it
makes little difference whether millions were killed or only
thousands.  Yet, I believe it is important to report history as
accurately as is possible in such affairs.  The exaggeration of
atrocities tends to play into the hands of those who would deny the
horror of such events.  Because this information was not enough for me,
I decided to find out what I could for myself.  My correspondent's remark
that this history is poorly documented seems to be accurate as far as I
can find.  Nevertheless, I have decided to see what I can find.  As I am
not a historian my goal is to find out from historians what they
believe to be accurate rather than doing the necessary historical
research myself.  This investigation by its very nature is not
exhaustive and should be viewed as a report of what I have found out
rather than a thesis attempting to prove how many victims there
actually were.

The narrator, Martha Henry, in _The Burning Times_ claims that 85% of the
victims of the witch hunts were women and that thousands were burned [1].  
In this same film a writer, Thea Jensen, is interviewed.
She refers to the witch trials as a "women's holocaust" and states that
the upper estimate is of 9 million deaths.  Unfortunately, I could not
locate anything written by Thea Jensen, nor did the film give any
further citation for such a number.  I was therefore left to my own
devices.

Let us first turn our attention to England because that is where my
first source, C. L'Estrange Ewen, focuses[2].  It must be emphasized
that this author's research centered on only the home circuit where
records were available.  Nevertheless, we find in the introduction a
critique of others' estimates:

	It is perhaps idle to attempt to estimate the number of
	executions for witchcraft throughout the country.  Various
	writers have made suggestions some of which are widely
	fantastical.  On the Continent, where burnings were carried out
	wholesale, Kurtz has estimated that subsequent to the bull of
	Innocent VIII (1484) 300,000 witches were brought to the
	stake[3]*.  Such figures may well be true, but what is to be
	thought of Robert Steele's statements in _Social England_ [4]
	that 70,000 witches were hanged under the Act of James I.  One
	hundredth part of such a figure would obviously be an over-
	estimate.  One must hesitate also to accept the same writer's
	suggestion that in Scotland 8,000 women were burnt between the 
	years 1560 and 1600 [2].

Another writer, George Kittredge, also criticizes Steele's figure:

	I stand aghast at these figures.  There is no sense or reason in
	them.  No records have been published or examined which would
	justify the assertion that _a seventieth part_ of this monstrous
	number met their death in the period named.  As for the time
	from the passage of the act in 1604 till the death of James in
	1625, Mr. Steele would find it hard to make out an average of
	more than two or three executions a year [5].
	
Ewen proceeds to make an estimate:

	If records of 77 _per centum_ of the Home Circuit Assizes shew
	[sic] 112 executions, it is improbable that the total could
	have exceeded 150, or for the six circuits 900, and adding an
	equal number for independent courts, 1,800.  Such a total would
	be the result of allowing for 12 times the Essex activities of
	Hopkins, and it is therefore much in excess of fact, actually
	the number of executions for witchcraft in England from
	1542-1736 may be guessed at less [sic] than 1,000 [2].

Let us now turn our attention to the continent.  Levack makes estimates
of the deaths in all of early modern Europe (ca. 1450-1750):

	Even if we make allowances for trial records that have been lost
	or destroyed, the total number of persons who were actually
	tried for witchcraft throughout Europe probably did not greatly
	exceed 100,000.  About half of these persons lived in German
	lands within the Holy Roman Empire.  A project organized by
	by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930's to obtain information
	regarding persons tried for magic and witchcraft in the past
	yielded a file containing data from some 30,000 prosecutions,
	the great majority of which took place in Germany.  Since some
	of the entries in this file contain the names of more than one
	person, and since the records of many prosecutions are for one
	reason or another not included in the file, the total number
	of German prosecutions could easily have been 50,000 [6].

Levack counts trials in the rest of Europe as follows: Poland: 15,000;
Switzerland: 9,000; Lorraine, Franche-Comte, France and "a string of
autonomous states within the Empire": 10,000; the British Isles: 5,000
(Levack remarks that more than half of these were in Scotland; note that
nevertheless his estimate exceeds Ewen.); Scandinavia: 5,000; Hungary,
Transylvania, Moldavia, Wallachia, and Russia: probably not more than
4,000; Spain and the Italian States: 10,000 [6].

Levack comes to a total of 110,000 trials and estimates that, "European
communities executed about 60,000 witches during the early modern period
[6].  Another source Kors and Peters put a range around that number:

	It is impossible to calculate accurately the total number of
	convicted witches who were burned at the stake or hanged between
	the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries, but few students begin
	guessing below the range of fifty to one hundred thousand, and
	some would double or triple that figure [7].

After initially writing this report, I discovered some of the sources
for higher numbers.  Walker does indeed refer to a larger number:

	The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea 
	was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without
	admitting that God's word was wrong , and God's servants had
	committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of
	helpless people without cause [8].

Although Walker cites references for other aspects of her study,
this passage on page 1087-8 of Walker's work gives no reference for the
number in the millions.  In the section on witches and the section on
witchcraft, I find no other reference to a total number of victims.  The
work is large and perhaps she is more specific elsewhere, but I find no
cross reference to such a passage.  

By chance, however, I have come upon the source for the nine million.
While browsing in a bookstore, I came across Ann Llewellyn Barstow's
_Witchcraze_.  Barstow writes [9]:

	Among the feminist writers claiming millions of deaths is
	Andrea Dworkin.  Working from the only estimates available
	in the 1970's, Dworkin made the claim, "In Europe, women
	were persecuted as witches for nearly four hundred years,
	burned at the stake, perhaps as many as nine million of 
	them...."[10]  The "nearly four hundred years" almost
	doubles the years of actual major persecution (1560-1760), and
	the "nine million of them" is off by about 8,900,000.  Even
	further off the mark is the claim by certain German feminists
	that ten million women were killed [11].  Faced with such
	exaggereations, the historian is forced to make an estimate 
	based on the records, no matter how incomplete they may be.

Barstow is correct that Dworkin mentions the nine million figure:

	It is hard to arrive at a figure for the whole of the
	Continent and the British Isles, but the most responsible
	estimate would seem to be 9 million.  It may well, some
	authorities contend, have been more.  Nine million seems
	almost moderate when one realizes that the Blessed Reichhelm
	of Schongan at the end of the 13th century computed a number
	of the Devil-driven to be 1,758,064,176.  A conservative,
	Jean Weir, physician to the Duke of Cleves, estimated the
	number to be 7,409,127[10].

It should be noter that the latter two numbers are estimates of how many
witches there were whereas the 9 million is an estimate of executions.
The comparison of the figure of 9 million people executed with an
impossible 1.8 billion figure for the number of witches does not make it
a more reasonable figure.  Unfortunately, Dworkin does not tell us how
she arrives at the figure of 9 million.  Barstow seems to think that it
is Dworkin's estimate.  I don't think so.  For much of her history of
the witchcraze Dworkin relies on another source: _Witchcraft_ by
Pennethorne Hughes, originally written in 1952.   In this book we find
the curious comment:

	The number who died as witches is purely problematical.
	Someone has suggested nine millions.  It may be many more [12].

I suggest that Hughes may be the source of the 9 million figure.
Perhaps, "someone" suggested it before him, but unfortunately, he
doesn't say who.  I would be most interested in earlier references to
such a number if anyone comes upon them.

Preparing us for her own estimate Barstow writes:

	Wanting to record every known victim, to ensure that the
	historical record finally acknowledges her death, I offer
	the most complete record available at this time.

She critiques Levack:

	The most careful totals made so far are those of Brian Levack,
	who estimates 110,000  accusations and 60,000 deaths [6].
	I believe that though his are reasonable figures, they are
	almost certainly too low.

Barstow claims 200,000 accusations and 100,000 executions.  Anyone
interested in her method should consult appendix B of her book. 

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot
believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can
find out how and why someone believes it to be true.  I invite
correspondance in this regard.  I am especially interested in estimates
that cannot be traced back to Hughes.  In the mean time let's look at
the other sources.  These sources suggest a figure between 60,000 [6] and 
300,000 [2] deaths in all of Europe due to the witch hunts. History is an 
evolving field; as new evidence comes to light and models change, so by 
necessity do the estimates of such tragedies.   At the moment, I must 
say that I am persuaded by Barstow.

I believe the term holocaust is the proper term for the witch hunts as
many of the victims were literally burnt alive.  It should be noted that
these events occurred at a time when there was only one city in all of
Europe with over a million people, Paris.  The events must have been
devastating. I do not wish to compare people's pain: an unjust murder is an 
unjust murder regardless of how many other people are murdered.  It should 
be noted, however, lest we think times have changed, that the efficiency of 
murder in our own time would seem to dwarf that of early modern Europe.  In 
the early 1970's the Khmer Rouge Government murdered 2-3 million people in 
the the small nation of Cambodia.  It seems that if we have changed, the 
change is only in the efficiency with which we conduct our witch hunts.

____________________________________________________________________________
[1]	M. Armstrong, M. Pettigrew, S. Trow, _The Burning Times_,
		series:   Women and spirituality series ; 2
          National Film Board of Canada. Studio D.
	  Los Angeles, Calif. : Direct Cinema Ltd., 1990.
          1 video cassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
          ISBN 1-55974-330-1

[2]  C.E. Ewen, _Witch Hunting and Witch Trials: The
	Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of 1373 Assizes held for 
	the Home Circuit A.D. 1559-1736_, The Dial Press (New York), 1929

[3]  Kurz _Church History_, (ed. Nicoll), ii, 197 [citation in 2, I was
	unable to find this one ]

[4]  R. Steele ,_Social England_, (editor H.D. Traill), 1903, iv 120
	G. P. Putnam's sons (New York).

[5]  G.L. Kittredge, _Witchcraft in Old and New England_, 
	Russell & Russel (New York), 1956

[6]  B.P. Levack, _The Witch-Hunt_, Longman (New York), 1987

[7]  A.C. Kors and E. Peters, _Witchcraft in Europe 1100-1700_,
	University of Pennsylvania Press (Philadelphia), 1972

[8]  B.G. Walker, _The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_ 
	1st ed.  San Francisco : Harper & Row, c1983.

[9]  A. L. Barstow, _Witchcraze: A New History of The European
	Witch Hunts_
	London: Pandora 1995

[10]  A. Dworkin, _Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality_
	New York: Feminist Press, 1973.

[11]  G. Heinsohn and O. Steiger, "Warum wurden Hexum verbrannt?"
	_Der Spiegel_ 43 (1984):111-28.

[12]  P. Hughes, _Witchcraft_, London: Penguin, 1970

* numbering changed to fit my citation scheme.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 10 07:19:09 PDT 1996
Article: 63987 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: 9 Sep 1996 15:42:34 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5126gq$sk@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu


The Crackow team has demonstrated that HCN was present in the homicidal
gas chambers at levels above background.  Deniers have no explanation for 
the presence of HCN in a facility built after the typhoid epidemic at
levels above background.

If the barracks in which they measured no HCN were never fumigated, why did
they measure a higher level in the homicidal gas chambers?

If the barracks were fumigated, why did they measure a higher level in the
homicidal gas chambers?

It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.

ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report  


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 10 19:07:06 PDT 1996
Article: 64275 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: "Dave Harman" Alleges Vague Threat On Milton Kleim By Anti-R
Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:11:40 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <514b0s$4v6@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>  <09SEP96.14484396.0075@IBM.UTM.EDU> <512cjl$k0l@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29121 alt.politics.white-power:42761 alt.revisionism:64275 alt.skinheads:37110

In article <512cjl$k0l@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Milton Kleim  wrote:

>I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what happens to me,
>being blinded by base hatred as they are.  But neither do I care if they
>use the matter for their own political agenda; most of what has been said
>by my former opponents is true.

Actually, Mr. Kleim, I think you are in error here.  I think that many
of us anti-racists (I see no need for quotes) are concerned about your
well-being.  I do not agree with your racist political views which
apparently have not changed, but I respect the courage it has taken to
make the changes that you have made.  I hope that one day you will
change more of your views.  I realize that you probably don't think that
will happen, but a couple of years ago you wouldn't have thought that
you'd leave the "movement" either.  I have hope for your continued
growth and sincerely hope that it is not interrupted by the the actions
of those who you once thought were friends.

Regards,

Rich Green

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Thu Sep 12 15:31:58 PDT 1996
Article: 64779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: 12 Sep 1996 10:20:50 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <519gpi$ho8@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net> <5126gq$sk@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <3238105c.2850442@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu


In article <3238105c.2850442@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:

>>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
>>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>>Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.
>
>		Prussian blue "origins not clear"? You mean when they found
>it in high concentrations outside of known fumigation facilities it
>was "not clear" as to its origin?. 

Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.

[snip]

>"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
>considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
>the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
>cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
>constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
>true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
>compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
>the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
>and persistence for such a long time."
>	
>
>	This is the statement I gave during the first exchange on it.
>
>	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
>under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
>water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
>	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
>years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
>clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
>were detected.

Mr. Moran displays his ignorance of solution equilibria for the world to
see.  Is Rudolf's knowlege of chemistry as poor as Mr. Moran's?

>	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
>relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
>capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
>be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
>constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
>processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.

Mr. Moran has posted this claim before yet he never informed us of how
many cherry trees were growing at Birkenau and why the pits only ended
up in places where cyanide was known to have been used.

>	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
>Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
>Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
>natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
>elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
>compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.

Why were they not prsent in the barracks?

>	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
>and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
>with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
>shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
>O reincorporated into something else.  	

Mr. Moran's ignorance of simple acid-base chemistry is noted.

[snip]

>	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
>found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
>fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
>II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
>11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
>and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
>occur.

Mr. Moran's evidence that these places were damper than the barracks
is...

Mr. Moran's explanation of the source of the cyanide that is
precipitously depositing itself selectively in places where there is a
historical record of the use of cyanide and not other places is...

>	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
>concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
>of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
>story. 

The Crakow report is not proof in and of itself, but it is corroborating
evidence.  When all the best evidence leads to the same conclusion it is
not unreasonable to suggest that that conclusion is the best explanation
of the facts.

Regards,

Rich Green

PS I better save this response for when Mr. Moran reposts his nonsense
1 month from now.




-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Sun Sep 22 07:52:17 PDT 1996
Article: 67608 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!viper.inow.com!newshub.internex.net!newshub1.internex.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coffee Alert!: (was: Goyim are scum)
Date: 21 Sep 1996 15:45:11 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <521r5n$e2o@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <3242af9b.3546836@news.pacificnet.net> <51uqgl$go1@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <32436929.6427927@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <32436929.6427927@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <3242af9b.3546836@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>	So sayeth the Torah and the Talmud.
>>
>>Where does the Torah say this?  Please cite a specific reference.   If
>>the Torah says such a thing, why do so many Gentile Christians believe 
>>it is the word of God?
>
>	There numerous passages were the "seed" is referred to. The
>genetic lineage of the biblical names are constantly being reviewed.
>The Bible consistently refers to god as being their god. The Bible
>states the Jews can do this or that to the gentile but not to another
>Jew.
>	Where exactly in the Bible? The Torah, the first five books.
>Where exactly in the Torah? Couldn't say at this time. My notes are
>stashed. It's repeated throughout. Anyone reading the Bible can keep
>an eye out for the themes, which are common.   

It sounds as if Mr. Moran has never read the Pentateuch himself; yet he
presumes to pontificate on what it says.  Please cite a specific
passage, Mr. Moran, or admit that you made a claim without knowing
whether or not it was true.

...


>>What is your reference for the Talmud saying that "gentiles are scum?"
>>What translation are you reading?
>
>	What "translation"? You mean what version? 

Which version and which translation.

>Whatever is posted at this time on the group and that which can be found on 
>the web. 

URL please?


>As far
>as I know, the Talmud is always undergoing rewrites. I would say that
>the older versions are more vituperative than the present ones. I
>might theorize the newer versions are for goyim eyes and the older
>ones are the ones that are actually used.

Which versions have you compared to draw this conclusion?  Could you
perhaps cite some specific passages as an example?

>	It all adds up to the present day vernacular use of the word
>scum. 

Evidence?

Regards,

Rich Green
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Mon Sep 23 07:46:05 PDT 1996
Article: 67898 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!olivea!venus.sun.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More on Zyklon B
Date: 21 Sep 1996 13:33:18 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <521jee$d85@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <51u8cm$8ou@lex.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <51u8cm$8ou@lex.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>I have a question regarding  Zyklon B.  
>On page 566 of Hilberg's 1961 edition of THE DESTRUCTION OF  
>EUROPEAN JEWRY it states:  
>	. . . . In the gas chamber the material immediately passed
>	into the gaseous state.
>
> Page 138 of THE WORLD MUST KNOW  shows a picture of a Zyklon B
>canister from A/B and pellets from Majdanek.
>I understand that Zyklon B deteriorated in the container after a
>number of months.
>Did this leave the pellets intact but in an inert condition as
>depicted in the picture?  

The pellets would certainly remain intact.  Whether they would be
completely inert after a number of months is questionable.  I wouldn't
open up a can in a small enclosed space even if it had passed its
expiration date.

>Did the pellets retain the blue color after gas release?
>This must have been covered but I don't remember reading it.

If you find the answer to this question please let me know.  Let me know
your source too, please.

Regards,

Rich Green
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 25 11:33:50 PDT 1996
Article: 68707 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: American involvement
Date: 24 Sep 1996 17:24:56 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <529u4o$st5@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <51uc1r$q5r@news.usf.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <51uc1r$q5r@news.usf.edu>,
Mary Apicella   wrote:
>Dear friends,
>   I am a student at the university of south florida.  I am interested 
>in finding out How many Jews lost their lives from the Holocaust, and 
>The American involvement or non-involvement.  A friend of mine told me 
>that America knew about the happening of the prision camps for more than 
>a year before they got involved. How can this be? Could our president at 
>the time be that ignorant as to not help out people that were in need!! 
>I've visited the Nizkor home page and am slowly trying to find out 
>information.  Please help me with my misunderstandings of the event at 
>that time.  Please E-Mail me any information you might have at 
>swanson@csee.usf.edu or go to my home page 
>http://www.eng.usf.edu/~kswanson

You may find the book _The Abandonment of the Jews_ by David Wyman (I
think) of interest.  He addresses these very questions in some depth.

Regards,

Rich Green

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 25 17:30:12 PDT 1996
Article: 68823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!olivea!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Chiral molecules: irrelevant to apw-p, but here anyway.
Date: 25 Sep 1996 16:34:56 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <52cfj0$714@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <51f7gp$cl4@lex.zippo.com> <51vt97$12b@lex.zippo.com> <324448B6.451B@unb.ca> <521m80$77d@lex.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:44677 alt.revisionism:68823 alt.politics.nationalism.white:31216 talk.origins:150026

In article <521m80$77d@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>In article <324448B6.451B@unb.ca>, Keith says...
>>
>>Ourobouros wrote:
>>
>>> >For the unitiated the absence of "other-handed" molecules does *not*
>>> >mean that evolutionary theory is wrong.  What it does suggest is that
>>> >life originated from a common ancestor that just by chance happened to
>>> >use chiral molecules of one type.
>>> >
>>> Lets make a circular argument then.  I disagree.  How is it feasible for
>>> "chance" to form the chiral molecules in only one way without outside
>>> help?
>>
>>Simple.  The first life on Earth used one type of chiral molecule, at
>>least the first life that had descendants to the present day.
>>
>Prove its feasibility.  Simply describe how chance (no design) would give
>only one form of the chiral molecule.

What makes you think a racemic mixture is more probable?  The origin of
chirality is indeed an interesting question, but an interesting question
is not a refutation of Evolution.  The possibilities of forming one
enatiomer rather than the other are endless. One possibility is that
circularly polarized light took place in a photochemical reaction.  The
universe may never have been symmetric; I don't know and you don't
either.

>Ourobouros.
>
>P.S. Arguing over evolution is not relevant to any of these newsgroups, so
>unless you have some worthwhile "thing" to contribute let this thread die.

talk.origins added.

Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 25 19:37:07 PDT 1996
Article: 68835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: 25 Sep 1996 14:00:13 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <52c6gt$5pa@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <3247f712.3725782@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <3247f712.3725782@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	HCN can come in a liquid form. If a liquid was used for any
>alleged exterminations, it would have been way more
>time/cost/efficiency efficient. But no, "It just happens that it also
>proved to be useful for other purposes" says the professor.

HCN is a high vapor pressure liquid at room temperature.  Using the
liquid would be very dangerous and cost ineffective:


>From  DuPont's MSDS CAS 74-90-8:

Instability:

	Unstable with heat, alkaline materials, and water.
	(See Polymerization below.) DO NOT STORE WET HCN.
	May react violently with strong mineral acids.
	Experience shows that mixtures with about 20%
	or more sulfuric acid will explode. Effects with 
	other acids are not quantified, but strong acids
	like hydrochloric or nitric would probably react
	similarly (emphasis DuPont's).

Polymerization:

	Can occur violently in the presence of heat, alkaline
	materials, or moisture.  Once initiated, polymerization
	becomes uncontrollable since the reaction is autocatalytic
	producing heat and alkalinity (NH3).  Confined polymerization
	can cause a violent explosion.   HCN is stabilized with small
	amounts of acid to prevent polymerization. HCN SHOULD NOT
	BE STORED FOR EXTENDED PERIODS unless routine testing confirms
	product quality (emphasis mine).



>	But then, it just so happens that it was on the premises for
>other purposes. It just so happens it was just laying around. It just
>so happens, if it wasn't just laying around, there would have been
>nothing around to identify as the agent of mass extermination by
>gassing. If the Soviet investigators had found cans of RAID, BLACK
>FLAG or boxes of moth balls, this would have been the agent of mass
>extermination.

Yes, and it just so happens that CO was lying around elsewhere and that
vans were modified at Chelmo, and it just so happens that Zyklon was
ordered with the lachrymogen removed, and it just so happens that
witnesses both SS and Sonderkommandos report that the Zyklon was used
for homicidal purposes, and it just so happens that the gas chambers
were built near massive crematoriums, and it just so happens that Jews
went into the camps alive and never returned, and it just so happens
that Hitler predicted as a "prophet" the extirmination of Jews from
Europe.


Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Thu Sep 26 07:48:02 PDT 1996
Article: 68953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!olivea!venus.sun.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: More spittle and venom for the FBI
Followup-To: misc.test,alt.test,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 25 Sep 1996 13:39:53 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 246
Message-ID: <52c5ap$5io@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net> <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <51codp$gss@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <51codp$gss@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken McVay OBC  wrote:

>I think Matty-poo's been drinking again....
>
>   "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>   "Message-ID: <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
>
>   "Of course but he will kill you and if not my brother will 
>        kill you for even coming close.
>   "You fucking jew traitor.  
>   "You murdering Jews are all alike and you are not expected 
>        to be any different.  
>   "Should lightening strike my family JEWS will be named because of you.
>   "And of course I will have you on my better dead list.  And I am good
>        at it.  
>   "You are advised to spend your time playing bodyguard to my family.
>   "That is the only way you have to save yourself.  
>   "Keep that firmly in mind.  

Oh good!  More for my collection.  Please note followups; don't put
yourself to the test.


Is Matt Giwer an antisemite?   You be the judge:

>From  mgiwer@combase.com Sat Mar 23 14:39:28 PST 1996
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Is Giwer a Troll?  Message-ID:
<4j0msh$7at@wi.combase.com>

	You pathetic, primative bastards are all alike.  

	You folks should get your sociologic parallels straight.  David and
	Montezuma were equals.  Today's Jews are adhering to a social form that
	died out in the civilized world thousands of years ago.  By any
	definition today's Jews are a living anachronism that should be
	preserved under some endangered species act.
	
	Just as we do not disturb the strange tribes of the Amazon we
	should not disturb the strange tribes of Juda or David.

In article <4i7p38$g6g@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
said:

	I don't know how to indentify jews.  Why don't you tell me?
	
	The nose, the funny hats, the names, the beards, the "I want a
	Mercedes" whine? How are they identifiable?  What identifies them?  
	Ask three jews what is a jew and you get four opinions.  Maybe you 
	can do better.

>From  mgiwer@combase.com Sun Mar 17 16:36:49 PST 1996
From: mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazi spin on upholding of Canadian "hate-speech" l
Message-ID: <4iglve$4c5@wi.combase.com>

	Right, come get me, it will make my religous fervor come true.
	
	I know it is going to happen so just say anything and I will
	know I am being persecuted.  I can be a martyr!   Please let me take a
	number for a gas chamber.

	You assholes sound just like the nuns with the glossy eyes
	talking about the Christian martyrs.

	I don't really mean to interrupt your sexual arousal but please
	stop inflicting this upon the rest of the world.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Michael is a big, fat idiot like Rush Limbaugh
Followup-To: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Date: 30 Apr 1996 00:32:30 GMT
Message-ID: <4m3n2u$ebf@news.nyu.edu>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4lup31$bsf@access5.digex.net> <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: is.nyu.edu

Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: 	You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.

From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 07:02:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4o8vnf$gcn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4o5aii$cbe@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4o7koi$jn5@dub-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> <4o88dt$8oj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4o8mmu$6ts@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>

rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4o88dt$8oj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:

>>	But of course in either case a more complete work up or pathology
>>needs be done.  And again I note references to color are rather
>>rare.  And it was striking the first place we find the right
>>indication for cyanide it is in a camp that used CO where if
>>there was any mention of color it should have been of pink.

>Does Mr. Giwer disagree with OSHA on cyanosis being a symptom of CO
>poisoning?

	You are of course a willfully deceitful, character assassinating,
atheist Jew.  Now I have no idea what game you are trying to play
at this point in the message but I have said nothing about OSHA
so why do you not post it first?  Or so you disagree with the
NAVSEA manual on turbine exhaust poisoning?  But of course, YOU
FIRST!  I made up mine. you deal with yours first.

>>	But as a bottom line we really should not make too much of the
>>color.  It was simply striking by its rarity and being in the
>>wrong place.

>Translation: Mr. Giwer recognizes he was wrong, but as usual will not
>admit it.


	A better translation is

	You are of course a willfully deceitful, character assassinating,
atheist Jew. 

	But if this is not clear enough I can and have gone further in
noting that all the Jews in this conference have condoned your
behavior by their silence and are no better than you.  And that
includes all of them and yes, that means you.

From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:41:06 GMT
Message-ID: <4ob4p1$l04@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4npn6a$1la0@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <31a07671.3260787@news.pacificnet.net> <4o2q4s$bm5@shiva.usa.net> <4oa98d$16e2@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>

	And further proof that our California Chemist has to be an
	atheist.  Or perhaps he has split a rabbinic hair and determined
	that it refers only to citizens of Israel.

From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 04:23:03 GMT
Message-ID: <4oj7sk$ra9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4ntvip$6dg@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4o2kqu$e8r@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4o2va1$rfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4o5ar2$sd8@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4o7ntr$6ae@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4ogr4k$5gq@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>

	With people like you it is becoming easier and easier to believe
the Talmud really does encourage lying to Goyim.  If the Talmud
does not say it, you should insist upon its inclusion in the next
revision.

Path: nntp.Stanford.EDU!news.Stanford.EDU!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cosmic Slop
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:45:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Message-ID: <4oosh6$b0j@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>

>From  the first episode:

	A black barber speaks to a black customer.

	Did I ever tell you about the American dream?  Every nigger
swimming back to Africa ... with a Jew under each arm.  

=====

	But of course merely posting this will be called antisemitic by
the idiots.

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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:50:12 GMT
Message-ID: <4p5rlp$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p4tfh$aq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4p5l0s$2sb@news.enter.net>

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>  
>>  >Who again said, he was no anti-semite?
>>  
>>  	Who was it who first said I was an why?

>	1.  A person of obvious perception and honesty.

>	2.  Because you are.

	The evidence I am about to give shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth so help me hyphenated god.  

From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I am asking for a number, stupid
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:30:35 GMT
Message-ID: <4pisto$5ep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pgc0b$k80@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4pihue$mu0@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:


>	This is why your arguments lack coherence.  You have not the 
>slightest idea of how to analyse data.  The initial question is not 
>"gassing" or "not gassing."  The initial question is what happened to 
>the Jewish communities in Europe in the period 1939-1945.  The simple 
>answer is that, whatever, the "estimations" of the numbers involved is 
>that the people and the cultures vanished.  

...

>	You are not only wrong in your characterization of the evidence but 
>of the position of every historian who has studied the subject.  What I care 
>about is the murder of the Jews of Europe and erasure of Yiddish culture.  

	There is no particular merit to Yiddish culture.  Why would you
care?  

"From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
   "Message-ID: <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>

   "Of course but he will kill you and if not my brother will
        kill you for even coming close.
   "You fucking jew traitor.
   "You murdering Jews are all alike and you are not expected
        to be any different.
   "Should lightening strike my family JEWS will be named because of
you.
   "And of course I will have you on my better dead list.  And I am good
       at it.
   "You are advised to spend your time playing bodyguard to my family.
   "That is the only way you have to save yourself.
   "Keep that firmly in mind.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7


From rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU Mon Sep 30 23:08:55 PDT 1996
Article: 70449 of alt.revisionism
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960929: Message to other students
Date: 30 Sep 1996 16:11:08 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <52pk2c$9jc@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2935 alt.revisionism:70449

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:

>Doesn't this letter make you feel RIGHT?  It reminds me of Nietzsche's
>Zarathustra where he writes:  "Slack and sleeping senses must be addressed
>with thunder and heavenly fireworks.  But the voice of beauty speaks
>gently;  it creeps only into the most awakened souls."

It reminds me of when Nietzsche said the following:


>From  Beyond Good and Evil

				251

	   "It must be taken into the bargain if all sorts of clouds and 
		disturbances . . . pass over the spirit of people that is
		suffering, and *wants* to suffer, of nationalistic nerve
		fever and political ambition.  Examples among the Germans
		today include now the anti-French stupidity, now the
		anti-Jewish, now the anti-Polish, now the Christian-romantic,
		now the Wagnerian . . . For example, about the Jews: only 
		listen!
	   " I have not met a German yet who was well disposed toward the
		Jews; and however unconditionally all the cautious and
		politically-minded repudiated real anti-Semitism, even this
		caution and policy are not directed against the species of 
		this feeling itself but only against its dangerous immoderation,
		especially against the insipid and shameful expression of this
		immoderate feeling-- about this, one should not deceive 
		itself.  That Germany has amply enough Jews, that the German
		stomach, the German blood has trouble (and will still have
		trouble for a long time) digesting even this quantum of "Jew"--
		as the Italians, French, and English have done, having a 
		stronger digestive system-- that is the clear testimony and
		language of a general instinct to which one must listen, 
		in accordance with which one must act. "Admit no more new
		Jews! . . . " thus commands the instinct of a people whose 
		type is still weak and indefinite... The Jews, however, are
		beyond a doubt the strongest, toughest, and purest race now
		living in Europe; they know how to prevail even under the
		worst conditions... by means of virtues that today one would
		like to mark as vices...
	   ". . . That the Jews, if they wanted it-- or if they were forced 
		into it, which seems to be what the anti-Semites want-- 
		*could* even now have preponderence, indeed quite literally 
		mastery over Europe, that is certain; that they are *not*
		working and planning for that is equally certain.
	   " . . . Meanwhile they want and wish rather, even with some
		importunity, to be absorbed and assimilated by Europe; they
		long to be fixed, permitted, respected somewhere at long 
		last, putting an end to the nomads' life, to the "Wandering
		Jew"; and this bend and impulse . . . should be noted well
		and *accomodated*: to that end it might be useful and fair
		to expel the anti-Semetic screamers from the country."	



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
       -Deuteronomy 32:7



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