The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-report/giwer-report.0696


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From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 19 Jun 1996 01:31:41 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
X-Nizkor-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and his success in monopolizing discussion.

Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:

  Total number of articles posted: 1832
         Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
from Giwer;  each "M" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

 Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
 Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
 Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM



It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl




Path: news.voyager.net!aanews.merit.net!pub1.tln.lib.mi.us!news2.acs.oakland.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!ulowell.uml.edu!wang!news.kei.com!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 19 Jun 1996 09:44:27 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
X-Nizkor-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Xref: news.voyager.net alt.revisionism:48899 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:54666

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and his success in monopolizing discussion.

Here are the statistics for June 10th through 13th:

  Total number of articles posted: 816

         Articles from Matt Giwer: 172 (21.1%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 213 (26.1%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 43
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 53.3

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
from Giwer;  each "M" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM

For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl





From jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 19 17:11:19 PDT 1996
Article: 44653 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 19 Jun 1996 15:09:10 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
X-Nizkor-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and his success in monopolizing discussion.

Here are the statistics for June 14th through 16th:

  Total number of articles posted: 834

         Articles from Matt Giwer: 185 (22.2%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 220 (26.4%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 61.7
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 73.3

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
>from  Giwer;  each "M" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

Jun 16: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM


It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl



Article 44816 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:18:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 115
Message-ID: <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-48.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 12:19:49 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
>and his success in monopolizing discussion.

>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:

>  Total number of articles posted: 1832
>         Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
>        Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)

>      Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2

>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
>from Giwer;  each "M" represents one additional article with the
>string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM



>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>http://www.cm.org/

>alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl

	What an idiot. 

	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  

	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
	
	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
doing and am going to do.

	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
the NG back on track.  

	You folks can not say you were not warned.  I told you what I would do
and then I did it.  Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.  

	Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies.  And now you are running
away with the "I can't hear you" gradeschool method.  Fine with me.  I
know exactly how to use that with a vengence.  

	Alec will verify that one if he remembers.  
	
	So here is another little hint for you not to believe.  You can not
simple isolate me.  You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
answering.  And this is for the lurkers, is it not?  We are all self
aggrandizing in that manner.

	But do not believe me this time.  I can and will come in under another
name that is not killfiled.  You folks have proven yourselves so
freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.

	It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.






Article 44883 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:29:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4qc8tq$nkc@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20  2:31:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
>and his success in monopolizing discussion.

>Here are the statistics for June 14th through 16th:

>  Total number of articles posted: 834

>         Articles from Matt Giwer: 185 (22.2%)
>        Articles mentioning Giwer: 220 (26.4%)

>      Articles per day from Giwer: 61.7
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 73.3

>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
>from Giwer;  each "M" represents one additional article with the
>string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

>Jun 16: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

>Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
>Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM


>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>However, it would not be morally proper, 

	That has never stopped a holohugger before.  

since he is not conducting
>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

	Why just lie about as you do about everything else?  
	




Article 44892 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:38:03 GMT
Lines: 31

dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:

# Ah, statistics!
# 
# It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number
# of incidents of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same
# archival quotes, and how many of these produced no thread, not even
# one response.

I never posted dozens of copies of the same article in the same day,
as Giwer did and continues to do. I never replied to numerous 
articles on the same day, simply by quoting them and appending
the same article over and over again, dozens of times.

# Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
# material over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
# consciousness by default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

It is typical of "revisionists" to confuse third-rate "cynicism"
for intelligence. You're no exception. BTW, it's Grabner, not Graber,
which may prove that for small minds all the repetition in the
world is not enough. 


-Danny Keren.

-- 
In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.


Article 44903 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newton.hlthsrc.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!unixhub!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:03:43 -0700
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 29
Sender: llurch@Networking.Stanford.EDU
Message-ID: <4qcaqv$5j4@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44903 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55090

jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca writes:
>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.

I don't believe this is true. Posts "from Matt Giwer" have come from more
than one machine at once. They've got at least two Windows boxes, one
configured with a WinGate proxy server and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer)", the other a WinGate client and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com" 
[no GCOS name]. Because of the proxy server setup, articles show up with
the same NNTP-Posting-Host, but the From: line and other differences
distinguish which articles were posted from which machine.

Here are some more long-term stats culled from DejaNews over the period
96/04/15 - 96/06/15. The number of articles is inflated somewhat because
DejaNews breaks up long articles and counts the pieces, but this shouldn't
skew the percentages much.

Articles in alt.revisionism: 18,327
Articles from mgiwer@*: 2,862 or 15.6%
Articles matching "giwer* | myshkin | mgiwer*": 7,256 or 39.6%

(Prince Myshkin, the lead character in Dostoievsky's "The Idiot," is a
common synonym for Giwer.)

The last statistic includes articles by Giwer. DejaNews doesn't (seem to)
have a way to filter all articles EXCEPT those from a specific author. The
logical ! only seems to work with & or |, i.e., you need to do a positive 
search.

-rich


Article 44936 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:53:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4qcru6$cq3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20  7:55:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:

># Ah, statistics!
># 
># It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number
># of incidents of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same
># archival quotes, and how many of these produced no thread, not even
># one response.

>I never posted dozens of copies of the same article in the same day,
>as Giwer did and continues to do. I never replied to numerous 
>articles on the same day, simply by quoting them and appending
>the same article over and over again, dozens of times.

	I use the articles as sigs.  Is that a crime now?  Note that most of
them are shorter than the mantra you folks delight in using.  

	I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
using as sigs.  

	Now where were you when the mantra was being repeated a hundred times a
day?   Where are you now when there are dozens of threads that consist
of nothing but attacks upon me?  

	And just what is it that you are objecting to really?  

	Don't tell me.  I know.  I do not believe as you do.  

># Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
># material over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
># consciousness by default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

>It is typical of "revisionists" to confuse third-rate "cynicism"
>for intelligence. You're no exception. BTW, it's Grabner, not Graber,
>which may prove that for small minds all the repetition in the
>world is not enough. 

	Someone must be making you do it.  To do so on your own would mean you
have to believe it is contributing something to the discussion.  

>-Danny Keren.

	Now you see, here is an example of an attack.

>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.

	And my response is 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 

	See how it goes?




Article 44973 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:02:20 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Ah, statistics!

It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response. 
Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
default.  (Graber made me do it!!)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


Article 44979 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:43:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4qcgoq$e9l@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20  4:44:58 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Ah, statistics!

>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response. 
>Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
>and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

	It is only "spamming" when others do it in "their" conference.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 








Article 45046 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 17-18: 32.1% / 37.4%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Date: 21 Jun 1996 05:09:14 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4qe3da$7dv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
X-Nizkor-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

   "As long at you folks continue to post about me I will respond.
    The longer the post the long[er] my tagline will be."
                                      - Matt Giwer, June 20, 1996

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried the signal
under an avalanche of noise.

Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront "revisionist"
claims.  Giwer's tactics make that essentially impossible.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and his success in monopolizing the group.

Here are the statistics for June 17th and 18th:

  Total number of articles posted: 546

         Articles from Matt Giwer: 175 (32.1%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 204 (37.4%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 87.5
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 102

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
from Giwer;  each "m" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

Jun 18: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 17: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

Jun 16: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmm
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmm
Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmm


It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl



Article 45082 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cftnet.com!ns2.mainstreet.net!viper.inow.com!newshub.internex.net!newshub1.internex.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 20 Jun 1996 12:27:36 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31sg0.stanford.edu

I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
Giwer:

1. Rich Green
2.
3.
4.
.
.
.


Regards,

Rich Green

PS  If Mr. Giwer repeatedly sends the same text to the newsgroup,
however, I will e-mail it back to him and root@ix.netcom.com.



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


Article 45089 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:52 -0500
Organization: -----
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on4-27.netcom.ca
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21  1:20:03 AM EDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1085



> jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
<4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...

> NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
> 
> To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don't
Nizkorians kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.



Article 45104 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 21 Jun 1996 08:20:37 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca

In article <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, 
rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>Giwer:

Giwer's still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

-- 
Nizkor Canada - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


Article 45106 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 06:16:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4qdeo8$nqj@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0126.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons"
<104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:



>> jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
><4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...

>> NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>> 
>> To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don't
>Nizkorians kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
>Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
>reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
>newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

Well, Mr. Coons your suggestion would seem to indicate that you have
read very few of Giwer's posts.  As for deniers "killing" Nizkor
posts, perhaps you have read few of theirs as well.  For all the
relevance of many of their responses to the points raised in Nizkor
posts, one might well infer that they are already ignoring them.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



Article 45147 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!aanews.merit.net!news.voyager.net!clmx51.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:15:57 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 106
Message-ID: 
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45147 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55255

dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

> Ah, statistics!
> 
> It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
> of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
> and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response. 
> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
> and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
> default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

You've missed the point.  Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
declared their intentions to be:

      making this a "spam conference" [1];
      responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];
      posting under fake names to dodge peoples' killfiles [3];

         or, my favorite:

      "making it" (this newsgroup) "useless" to anyone who would
      challenge revisionist dogma [4].

They do not proudly refer to their postings as "barrages" [5].  They do
not brag about being able to "make this conference do anything they
want" [6].

But I guess that must have slipped your mind.

In short, the difference is that McVay and Keren are not flagrant
net abusers.  The statistics are not about whether Mr. Giwer _is_ a
flagrant net abuser;  they are only reports on how _successful_ he is.

1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/the-longer-my-tagline
3. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02
4. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless
5. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/five-day-barrage
6. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.01

Just for kicks, I ran the script on them anyway, for June 1st - 15th.

Mr. McVay is certainly the most prolific anti-denier poster to this
newsgroup (or he was last time I checked).  He maintains the official
FAQ and his crontab regularly posts files selected from his archives. 
He's frequently insulted by the Nazi-types who cross-post from
alt.politics.nationalism.white, so his "mention" rating should be fairly
high.  (Though, to be fair, their misspellings of his name -- "McOyVay"
-- wouldn't have been picked up by the script.  :-)

You'll recall that Giwer's statistics have been rising steadily this
month, reaching about 21% of the articles posted in alt.revisionism,
with mentions of him hitting about 26%.

Mr. McVay:  4.8% / 6.0%.  He's the most prolific, remember.

Dr. Keren:  2.8% / 3.0%.  That includes an uncharacteristically large
number of posts on the 14th, a collection of SS testimonies which had
been posted separately over the last few years but never collected
together in one series.

To put it graphically, here would be the bar charts for the last week:

MCVAY

Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFM
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
Jun 13: FFMM
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFMMM
Jun 11: FFFFFFFMMMM
Jun 10: FFFFFFFMMM
 Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFMM

KEREN

Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFMM
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMM
Jun 13: M
Jun 12: FF
Jun 11: FFFFFFF
Jun 10: 
 Jun 9: 

GIWER

Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
 Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Do you see the difference, "DvdThomas"?

Posted;  cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  Please redirect
followups to whichever group is most appropriate.

Not emailed to "DvdThomas," because he has said he doesn't care to
receive email from me.  Not emailed to Matt Giwer, because he has
said he doesn't care to receive email from me.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.


Article 45153 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!aanews.merit.net!news.voyager.net!clmx46.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:39:12 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default> <4qdeo8$nqj@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons"
<104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Why don't Nizkorians
> kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
> Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
> reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
> newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

If you were paying attention, Mr. Coons, you would know that I most
certainly do not ignore revisionists/deniers.  I pay them quite a
bit of attention.  I've carried on discussions with (to name a few)
Jack Wikoff, Bradley Smith, David Cole, David Irving, Andrew Allen,
Alexander Baron, and I'm trying to discuss something with
Jean-Francois Beaulieu but technical difficulties are making it hard...

Anyway, the point is that none of those people has announced that
their goal is to take over the newsgroup and make it a place where
discussion is next to impossible.  None of those people is flagrant
net abusers who troll just to stir up trouble.  And all of those
people at least had some interest in discussing matters with me.

Giwer is just a troll, and he's out to destroy discussion.  There's
nothing wrong with ignoring someone who has those goals.

Posted/emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.


Article 45171 of alt.revisionism:
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 15:39:12 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4qdqpl$1mc@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.
>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>doing and am going to do.

I was right. This man is emotionally disturbed. We are obviously witnessing the
symptoms of an approaching megalomania.

>	You folks can not say you were not warned.  I told you what I would do
>and then I did it.  Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.
>	Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
>Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies.  And now you are running
>away with the "I can't hear you" gradeschool method.  Fine with me.  I
>know exactly how to use that with a vengence.

Power fantasies. Taking refuge to the tactics of "cut and paste", Mr. Giwer manages
to fool himself into believing that his sheer quantitiy of posts does in any way
disprove us.

>	So here is another little hint for you not to believe.  You can not
>simple isolate me.  You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
>else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
>answering.  And this is for the lurkers, is it not?  We are all self
>aggrandizing in that manner.

In the computerized existence of Mr. Giwer, this could be understood as the
equivalent of immortality...

Nele


Article 45198 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:18:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21  6:20:50 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.
>>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>doing and am going to do.

>I was right. This man is emotionally disturbed. We are obviously witnessing the
>symptoms of an approaching megalomania.

	That is what was posted by others.  Now they are trying to make some
kind of issue out of it in net abuse.  

>>	You folks can not say you were not warned.  I told you what I would do
>>and then I did it.  Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.
>>	Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
>>Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies.  And now you are running
>>away with the "I can't hear you" gradeschool method.  Fine with me.  I
>>know exactly how to use that with a vengence.

>Power fantasies. Taking refuge to the tactics of "cut and paste", Mr. Giwer manages
>to fool himself into believing that his sheer quantitiy of posts does in any way
>disprove us.

	The holohuggers were under the delusion that shear volume and name
calling disproved revisionism.  What do you see as the difference?  

>>	So here is another little hint for you not to believe.  You can not
>>simple isolate me.  You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
>>else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
>>answering.  And this is for the lurkers, is it not?  We are all self
>>aggrandizing in that manner.

>In the computerized existence of Mr. Giwer, this could be understood as the
>equivalent of immortality...

	Nizkor did that with there Nazi files on me.   




Article 45211 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:12:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <4qfof8$2o6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:14:48 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45211 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55321

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>> Ah, statistics!
>> 
>> It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>> of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>> and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response. 
>> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
>> and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>> default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

>You've missed the point.  Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
>declared their intentions to be:

>      making this a "spam conference" [1];

	I use them as rotating sigs, they are not the message.  But of course
you would rather misrepresent it as otherwise.   

>      responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];

	Not in the least.  

>      posting under fake names to dodge peoples' killfiles [3];

	Excuse me, but what fake names have I used?  You mean it would improper
to use Marduk?  Where were you then?  

>         or, my favorite:

>      "making it" (this newsgroup) "useless" to anyone who would
>      challenge revisionist dogma [4].

	But that is what you folks have deliberately done for years and have
bragged about doing it.  So what can you possibly be complaining about?


	You folks have been the thought control freaks and you folks are quite
proud of it.  

>They do not proudly refer to their postings as "barrages" [5].  They do
>not brag about being able to "make this conference do anything they
>want" [6].

>But I guess that must have slipped your mind.

>In short, the difference is that McVay and Keren are not flagrant
>net abusers.  The statistics are not about whether Mr. Giwer _is_ a
>flagrant net abuser;  they are only reports on how _successful_ he is.

	I have read more of Keren's repetative crap than I have ever posted.

	The malicious little mantra has been posted thousands of times.  

	Where were you then?

	Why are you only doing your stuck pig impression now?  

>1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
>2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/the-longer-my-tagline
>3. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02
>4. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless
>5. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/five-day-barrage
>6. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.01

>Just for kicks, I ran the script on them anyway, for June 1st - 15th.

>Mr. McVay is certainly the most prolific anti-denier poster to this
>newsgroup (or he was last time I checked).  He maintains the official
>FAQ and his crontab regularly posts files selected from his archives. 
>He's frequently insulted by the Nazi-types who cross-post from
>alt.politics.nationalism.white, so his "mention" rating should be fairly
>high.  (Though, to be fair, their misspellings of his name -- "McOyVay"
>-- wouldn't have been picked up by the script.  :-)

>You'll recall that Giwer's statistics have been rising steadily this
>month, reaching about 21% of the articles posted in alt.revisionism,
>with mentions of him hitting about 26%.

>Mr. McVay:  4.8% / 6.0%.  He's the most prolific, remember.

>Dr. Keren:  2.8% / 3.0%.  That includes an uncharacteristically large
>number of posts on the 14th, a collection of SS testimonies which had
>been posted separately over the last few years but never collected
>together in one series.

	Perhaps they are not as dedicated to permitting alternative ideas to be
published as they are.  

>To put it graphically, here would be the bar charts for the last week:

>MCVAY

>Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFM
>Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>Jun 13: FFMM
>Jun 12: FFFFFFFFMMM
>Jun 11: FFFFFFFMMMM
>Jun 10: FFFFFFFMMM
> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFMM

>KEREN

>Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFMM
>Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMM
>Jun 13: M
>Jun 12: FF
>Jun 11: FFFFFFF
>Jun 10: 
> Jun 9: 

>GIWER

>Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
>Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>Do you see the difference, "DvdThomas"?

	Dedication to freedom of speech without permitting people who disagree
to be run out of the conference.  

>Posted;  cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  Please redirect
>followups to whichever group is most appropriate.

>Not emailed to "DvdThomas," because he has said he doesn't care to
>receive email from me.  Not emailed to Matt Giwer, because he has
>said he doesn't care to receive email from me.

	Quite correct.  That is one of the earliest forms of harrassment you
folks used.  And after I explained what the problem was you folks chose
to spam the conference with messages about that.  

	Speaking of spamming, why is it OK when you folks do it?  





Article 45229 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Johan Carlson 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:57:14 +0200
Organization: Luleň University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31CA71FA.170F@sm.luth.se>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
Reply-To: d93-jcn@sm.luth.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: nairobi.campus.luth.se
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win95; I)

Richard J. Green wrote:
> 
> I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
> Giwer:
> 
> 1. Rich Green
> 2. Johan Carlson
> 3.
> 4.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rich Green
> 
> PS  If Mr. Giwer repeatedly sends the same text to the newsgroup,
> however, I will e-mail it back to him and root@ix.netcom.com.
> 

Good idea Mr. Green. Maybe the Nizkor people could include (or mention)
this list in their Giwer Report.


Article 45249 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qdeo8$nqj@atlas.uniserve.com>  <4qfprh$398@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:31:29 GMT
Lines: 14

For God's sake, now this retard is starting to spam with
articles about his spamming!!

There's no escape...


-Danny Keren.


-- 
In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.


Article 45266 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 17-18: 32.1% / 37.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:17:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4qghbv$goh@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qe3da$7dv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22  5:19:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:68 alt.revisionism:45266

jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>   "As long at you folks continue to post about me I will respond.
>    The longer the post the long[er] my tagline will be."
>                                      - Matt Giwer, June 20, 1996

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  

	Keep that singlehandedly firmly in mind.  

	You folks called me an anti-semite and a nazi without cause.  You
harrassed my service provider.  You harrassed my family.  You did
anything you could to silence me.

	Consider it righteous Jewish revenge.  

	I never did tell you that, did I.  





Article 45290 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:00:07 EDT
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4qh5ao$4ahu@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qcaqv$5j4@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Reply-To: gmcfee@ibm.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip129-37-167-114.pq.ca.ibm.net
X-Newsreader: MR/2 Classic v2.26 - An OS/2 QWK reader
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45290 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55401

In article <4qcaqv$5j4@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
said:

>
>jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca writes:
>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.

>I don't believe this is true. Posts "from Matt Giwer" have come from more
>than one machine at once. They've got at least two Windows boxes, one
>configured with a WinGate proxy server and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer)", the other a WinGate client and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com"
> [no GCOS name]. Because of the proxy server setup, articles show up with
>the same NNTP-Posting-Host, but the From: line and other differences
>distinguish which articles were posted from which machine.

What is your suggestion, Rich?  That there is more than one Giwer?  That
more than one person is posting as Giwer?


--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                 


Article 10952 of soc.history.what-if:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Don't disagree with Giwer I  (was Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%)
Followup-To: soc.history.what-if
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:52:51 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 142
Message-ID: <31cb32c6.23249809@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: async6-6.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227

Posted as a courtesy and a warning to soc.history.what-if

Whatever you do, do not disagree with Matt Giwer. Mr. Giwer has
announced his intention to (continue to) flood alt.revisionism with
spam posts until the discussion and the subject matter suits his
opinions.

Please read Mr. Giwer's response at the bottom of this long quoted
message with care. This is what will happen to your newsgroup if you
disagree with him.

My apologies to readers of soc.history.what-if for taking up the
bandwidth. Only one more post will follow on this topic.



On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:18:02 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  Like the
>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>until our newsgroup became almost unusable.  With trolls, with insults,
>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
>and his success in monopolizing discussion.

>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:

>  Total number of articles posted: 1832
>         Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
>        Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)

>      Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2

>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
>from Giwer;  each "M" represents one additional article with the
>string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM



>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>http://www.cm.org/

>alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl

	What an idiot. 

	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered"
months later. Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore
it.  

	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I
can do you propose a course of action that is rather counter
productive.
	
	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more
quickly if people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe
me.  I love a fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling
you what I am doing and am going to do.

	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a
discussion of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it
over.  I put the NG back on track.  

	You folks can not say you were not warned.  I told you what I
would do and then I did it.  Alec told you what I would do and then I
did it.  

	Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me
bested the Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies.  And now you
are running away with the "I can't hear you" gradeschool method.  Fine
with me.  I know exactly how to use that with a vengence.  

	Alec will verify that one if he remembers.  
	
	So here is another little hint for you not to believe.  You
can not simple isolate me.  You have to isolate everyone who as not
killfiled me else there will be leaks which you will look like fools
for not answering.  And this is for the lurkers, is it not?  We are
all self aggrandizing in that manner.

	But do not believe me this time.  I can and will come in under
another name that is not killfiled.  You folks have proven yourselves
so freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you
are.

	It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.


--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 45302 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!usenet
From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:02:19 -0300
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31CC271B.48A1@unb.ca>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4c)

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>         Please ignore me.  That makes it easier and all the manufactured
> complaints about what I post will go away.  It will be greatly
> appreciated.

Yeah, then you might be able to get those ridiculous statements out
without anyone checking.  Why, if I'd never spend the eight to ten
seconds a day in the library to prove you wrong if you were not
around.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


Article 45339 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4qcp6p$793@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:16:36 GMT
Lines: 42
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55451 alt.revisionism:45339

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

# The situation is that some years ago there was an organized
# effort by at least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order
# to prevent revisionism to be discussed.

And outright lie from a pathological liar.

# They brag about having driven off everyone who tries to discuss 
revisionism.

Example?

# They use any method open to them.  They start with simple verbal abuse
# which one has to expect in an alt conference.  But then it goes to
# harrassing people ISP, the person personally, and even their families.
# All of this happened in my case.

I suggest you watch it, nazi-boy. You are making a strong accusation
here. I certainly did not harass your family, neither your ISP. I
pity your family, actually.

# These people are the real scum of the earth.

Now tell us more about Belsen camp which you claimed was in Poland,
and about your claim that Zyklon does not release HCN in a temperature
of 20 degrees.

the future of "revisionism" depends on your reply.

Get dem famous 163 IQ points you brag about to work and get some
answers, quick.

We also want to hear more about your claim that the mention of "gas
chamber" and "gassing cellar" in SS documents is due to a "morbid
sense of humor" of the people writing the documents.

Explain this to us poor folks who don't have 163 IQ.


-Danny Keren.



Article 45364 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45364 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55465

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>> Ah, statistics!
>> 
>> It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>> of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>> and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response. 
>> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
>> and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>> default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

>You've missed the point.  Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
>declared their intentions to be:

>      making this a "spam conference" [1];

	This was a comment of mine in response to specific threat of theirs to
duplicate everything I post in the conference.  Thus they were the ones
making the threat.  I merely put a name to the consequences of such a
threat.  

>      responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];

	I do not do that, as you know.  

>      posting under fake names to dodge peoples' killfiles [3];

	This appears to be an issue with the outgoing news servers at Netcom not
all using the same user name, sometime the name I use, sometimes my
addr.  However, there appear to be only three.  You would think these
mavens could master three different names.   

>         or, my favorite:

>      "making it" (this newsgroup) "useless" to anyone who would
>      challenge revisionist dogma [4].

	That is not what is said.  

	What I did say is that it could be made useless to the mind control
freaks who have been intent upon making a conference on revisionism
useless to people who want to talk about revisionism.  

	You folks have  not only been doing that for years with personal insults
and harrassment including harrassment of people's families but you have
bragged about doing so.  You have bragged about driving people out of
the conference.  

	You folks have publically posted about email planning as to the best way
to get people to leave the conference.  

	I would say you folks should be the last stuck pigs to complain.  

>They do not proudly refer to their postings as "barrages" [5].  They do
>not brag about being able to "make this conference do anything they
>want" [6].

>But I guess that must have slipped your mind.

>In short, the difference is that McVay and Keren are not flagrant
>net abusers.  The statistics are not about whether Mr. Giwer _is_ a
>flagrant net abuser;  they are only reports on how _successful_ he is.

>1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
>2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/the-longer-my-tagline
>3. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02
>4. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless
>5. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/five-day-barrage
>6. >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.01

	You fail to note in public that the files on Nizkor are heavily censored
and altered to conceal the original intent and meaning of the posts.  

	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

	You fail to note the years of spamming the exact same messages on the
conference by members of Nizkor.  

	You fail to note that the posts to this conference are in fact one more
attempt to prevent discussion of revisionism as an attempt to silence
me.  

	Beyond that, you have told the full and complete truth.  

>Just for kicks, I ran the script on them anyway, for June 1st - 15th.

	You fail to note that you needed a lot of help to do this.  

	You fail to note that these were in response to what was posted on the
conference.  Which of course is your objective, to stop responses to
what you folks post.  You brag so much about stopping others from doing
so.  

	Jamie, me boy, you folks are simply getting a dose of what you have been
doing to others and bragging about for years.  

	Now that it has happened to you, you squeal like the stuck pigs you
really are.  You folks on alt.revisionism is notorious for doing what I
describe.  It will come as a surprise to no one.  

	You folks have bluntly referred to it as "our conference" but no one
owns an alt conference.  Now you have learned that.  

	You are a liar, Jamie.  I can not change that.  You can change that.  






Article 45388 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:34:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22  5:36:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
> wrote:
>>	What an idiot. 
>>
>>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  
>>
>>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>	
>>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>doing and am going to do.
>>
>>	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
>>the NG back on track.  

>    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

	And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off.  That is what
you are missing.  

>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.

	It is not my definition.  You certainly read McCarthy's message.  I got
a similar one from McFly by email.  They obvious had talked it over.  

>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>kind of scientist is that? 

	I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions.  When are you going
to get around to do so?  




Article 45394 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:12:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qcaqv$5j4@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4qcp6p$793@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22  3:14:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55491 alt.revisionism:45394

rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:
>>
>>> >singlehandedly
>>> 
>>> I don't believe this is true. Posts "from Matt Giwer" have come from more
>>> than one machine at once. They've got at least two Windows boxes, one
>>> configured with a WinGate proxy server and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>> (Matt Giwer)", the other a WinGate client and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com" 
>>> [no GCOS name].
>>
>>Rich, for those of us who don't know what WinGate is, could you explain
>>what this means?
>>
>>Is it logical to conclude that Giwer has a friend, or multiple friends,
>>using his account?  Are the client and server necessarily on the same LAN,
>>or could a client anywhere on the internet access his server?

>The easiest tool for what he seems to be doing, and a likely suspect given
>his son's job, is Adrien de Croy's WinGate, a proxy server for Windows
>95/NT (some people improperly call it a router). Basically, it lets you
>connect multiple computers to the Internet through one SLIP/PPP
>connection.  See http://www.windows95.com/connect/lansing.html

	I have noticed this myself.  In fact all that it is, is that netcom has
multiple outgoing news servers and they are not set the same.  There
appear to be only three variants.  

	What these people are trying to do is create, out of whole cloth, a case
that I am abusing the net.  

	The situation is that some years ago there was an organized effort by at
least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order to prevent
revisionism to be discussed.  They brag about having driven off everyone
who tries to discuss revisionism.

	They use any method open to them.  They start with simple verbal abuse
which one has to expect in an alt conference.  But then it goes to
harrassing people ISP, the person personally, and even their families.
All of this happened in my case.  

	These people are the real scum of the earth.

	This thread in this newsgoup is merely one more attempt to get me to
stop posting.  

	There is no truth to it.  They are merely presenting information in a
false light so as to make it appear that I am doing something improper.






Article 45398 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:09:23 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qh5aa$4agk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0128.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4qh5aa$4agk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>said:

>>
>>Ah, statistics!

>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.

Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike "revisionist" quotes,
the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
are intended to be.  Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
discussion.

>>Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
>>over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>>default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

>The point being?

The point being, perhaps, that Mr. Thomas acknowledges that
"revisionists" choose to engage in "propagandizing of a base sort" -
as opposed to legitimate presentation of verifiable documentation to
support their "arguments".

>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                                                

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



Article 45415 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:15:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4qhuv7$mks@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22  6:17:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>For God's sake, now this retard is starting to spam with
>articles about his spamming!!

>There's no escape...

	Now what are you talking about?  Nothing again?  But of course there is
another campaign starting to harrass my new service provider.  

	Holohuggers are so firmly into thought control that they will do
anything they can to try to silence those they disagree with.  

	A strong back must be a terrible thing to waste.  

>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. "
IMT VII - p. 377. 







Article 45428 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 21 Jun 1996 16:39:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
 wrote:
>	What an idiot. 
>
>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  
>
>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>	
>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>doing and am going to do.
>
>	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
>the NG back on track.  


    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.

    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
kind of scientist is that? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45435 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:32:33 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31cce4e0.50399456@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:12:15 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
wrote:


>
>	The situation is that some years ago there was an organized effort by at
>least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order to prevent
>revisionism to be discussed.  They brag about having driven off everyone
>who tries to discuss revisionism.

Names?

Thought not.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 45439 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:42:49 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

[snip]

>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
member of this so-called "Gang of Six."

I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 45465 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 05:19:46 GMT
Organization: Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4qik5i$f8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: 	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
: people follow your suggestion. 

What a card this Myshkin guy is.  As it happens, other revisionist types
(most notably Milton Kleim) have made this sort of claim before, and 
this claim is invariably shown to be untrue.  The lurkers on this 
newsfroup almost certainly see you for what you are -- a pathetic liar
with the inability to keep his own lies straight, let alone deal with
the refutations of those lies.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight


Article 45474 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 01:13:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <4qijq2$kft@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>	What an idiot. 
>>>
>>>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>>>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  
>>>
>>>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>>	
>>>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>>>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>>doing and am going to do.
>>>
>>>	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
>>>the NG back on track.  
>
>>    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>>posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>>given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>
>	And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off.  That is 
>what you are missing. 

    No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.

    Greg Raven was exposed as a liar.  It was repeatedly shown that he
posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.

    Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
that refuted his own theory.

    Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.

    Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
enough.

    Ross Vicksell simply wasn't capable of debating anything.  Every time
you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.

    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
as good as he got from the word go.

    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.

    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
problem, not mine.



>>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.
>
>	It is not my definition.  You certainly read McCarthy's message.  I got
>a similar one from McFly by email.  They obvious had talked it over.  

    Yes, I read his message.  I am privy to the discussions that go on.

    Did you know that I was the one who wrote the mantra, as you call it? 
(The original, not Mark Van Alstine's mutated version.)  Yet I do not use
it.  Because, you see, there really was no conspiracy.  Other people
simply read it, liked it, and decided to use it.  There was no advance
agreement. I never suggested that it be used.  I never intended to use it. 
I have not killfiled you.  I respond to you just the same as I respond to
anyone else, on my own terms, if and when I choose.

    I find it uproariously funny that you think it is such a revelation
that you are now dealing with Nizkor on your own terms.  If you have
ever been doing anything but, then you are very, very, very stupid.

    I have not tried to silence you.  I merely point out when you are
lying or hypocritical.  I have said that if my goal were to defend the
orthodox holocaust story at any cost, I would want you posting forever,
because you are a liar and easily shown to be such.  But if my goal were
to defend the orthodox history at any cost, then I have done some very
strange things.  Ask Jeff Roberts who it was who reported survivor
testimony that they were held in Auschwitz unregistered, then sent off to
other camps without any records being made.

    So you have not beaten me, because I have never played any game other
than the one I have always played.  You can only beat me at it if and when
you start playing it.  But you are not capable of playing that game, 163
IQ or no.

    If and when I decide to deal with you, you will be dealt with, and on
my own terms.  Because just as you can get this newsgroup to do whatever
you want, I can summon spirits from the vasty deep, and invoke daemons by
name.  (And I do not even need a pentagram.)  I'm sure you are suitably
impressed.



>>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>>kind of scientist is that? 
>
>	I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions.  When are you going
>to get around to do so?  

    Excuse me.  You were the one claiming a physics degree and the ability
to do the calculations.  You were the one claiming there was not enough
coke.

    Your claims.  Therefore your burden of proof, as you do not hestitate
to point out to other people who make claims.  Yes, I know you hare not in
the least embarrassed when I point out your hypocrisy.  Nevertheless, you
are once again being hypocritical.

    Your claims, your burden of proof.  Start calculating.

    I think you are actually bluffing and cannot do the computations -
that you do not even know the correct equations.  You are hoping to get
someone else to do them so that you can sit back and say, "You're wrong!" 
without actually having to back up your claims or make any claim which can
then be shown wrong by someone who really _does_ know what they're doing.

    You could, of course, prove me wrong by doing the calculations and
showing your work as you claimed you could do and were challenged to do. 
But I predict you will not, because you are a lying fraud.  That is not an
insult, that is simply a fact, which I cannot change.  Only you can change
it.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45482 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45482 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55547

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>[snip]

>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."

>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
complain to me.  




Article 45505 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:03:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 148
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  5:06:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>	What an idiot. 
>>>>
>>>>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>>>>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  
>>>>
>>>>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>>>	
>>>>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>>>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>>>>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>>>doing and am going to do.
>>>>
>>>>	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
>>>>the NG back on track.  
>>
>>>    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>>>posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>>Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>>>given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>>
>>	And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off.  That is 
>>what you are missing. 

>    No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.

>    Greg Raven was exposed as a liar.  It was repeatedly shown that he
>posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
>paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.

>    Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
>document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
>that refuted his own theory.

>    Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
>of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.

>    Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
>introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
>yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
>enough.

>    Ross Vicksell simply wasn't capable of debating anything.  Every time
>you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.

>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>as good as he got from the word go.

>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.

>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>problem, not mine.

	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
declaration of victory.  
	
	You have shot down your own side's position.  Thank you again.  


>>>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>>>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>>>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.
>>
>>	It is not my definition.  You certainly read McCarthy's message.  I got
>>a similar one from McFly by email.  They obvious had talked it over.  

>    Yes, I read his message.  I am privy to the discussions that go on.

	Conspiracy admitted.  Thank you again.  It is only a matter of time
before you folks contradict those who deny these things are going on.  

>    Did you know that I was the one who wrote the mantra, as you call it? 

	And you were a conspirator.  Thank you again. 

>(The original, not Mark Van Alstine's mutated version.)  Yet I do not use
>it.  Because, you see, there really was no conspiracy.  Other people
>simply read it, liked it, and decided to use it.  There was no advance
>agreement. I never suggested that it be used.  I never intended to use it. 
>I have not killfiled you.  I respond to you just the same as I respond to
>anyone else, on my own terms, if and when I choose.

	The agreement was posted.   It is on Dejanews.  

>    I find it uproariously funny that you think it is such a revelation
>that you are now dealing with Nizkor on your own terms.  If you have
>ever been doing anything but, then you are very, very, very stupid.

	Agreed in that.  I am certainly not capable of singlehandedly hijacking
this conference as I have been accused of doing.  

>    I have not tried to silence you.  I merely point out when you are
>lying or hypocritical.  I have said that if my goal were to defend the
>orthodox holocaust story at any cost, I would want you posting forever,
>because you are a liar and easily shown to be such.  But if my goal were
>to defend the orthodox history at any cost, then I have done some very
>strange things.  Ask Jeff Roberts who it was who reported survivor
>testimony that they were held in Auschwitz unregistered, then sent off to
>other camps without any records being made.

>    So you have not beaten me, because I have never played any game other
>than the one I have always played.  You can only beat me at it if and when
>you start playing it.  But you are not capable of playing that game, 163
>IQ or no.

	Right, just one more stupid holohugger among many, right up there with
Ferree and Dahlman.  

>    If and when I decide to deal with you, you will be dealt with, and on
>my own terms.  Because just as you can get this newsgroup to do whatever
>you want, I can summon spirits from the vasty deep, and invoke daemons by
>name.  (And I do not even need a pentagram.)  I'm sure you are suitably
>impressed.

	Sounds serious.  Why am I not concerned in the least?

>>>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>>>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>>>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>>>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>>>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>>>kind of scientist is that? 
>>
>>	I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions.  When are you going
>>to get around to do so?  

>    Excuse me.  You were the one claiming a physics degree and the ability
>to do the calculations.  You were the one claiming there was not enough
>coke.

	You can not disagree with me without having first run your own
calculations to establish your position.  When do we all see them?
NEver?  That is what I knew all along.  




Article 45519 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.flame
Date: 21 Jun 1996 10:58:31 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4qens7$3fb@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31sg0.stanford.edu

In article <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken McVay OBC  wrote:

>G*wer's still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

Agreed.  I just turned mine on.  I intend to login from another account
occasionally to send his service provider copies of clear examples of
net abuse, however.  I've already sent them a couple.

*name edited for the sake of Jamie's perl script.  I bet we can do
better.

Regards,

Rich Green



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


Article 45428 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 21 Jun 1996 16:39:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
 wrote:
>	What an idiot. 
>
>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  
>
>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>	
>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>doing and am going to do.
>
>	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
>the NG back on track.  


    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.

    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
kind of scientist is that? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45435 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:32:33 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31cce4e0.50399456@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:12:15 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
wrote:


>
>	The situation is that some years ago there was an organized effort by at
>least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order to prevent
>revisionism to be discussed.  They brag about having driven off everyone
>who tries to discuss revisionism.

Names?

Thought not.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 45465 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 05:19:46 GMT
Organization: Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel.
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: 	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
: people follow your suggestion. 

What a card this Myshkin guy is.  As it happens, other revisionist types
(most notably Milton Kleim) have made this sort of claim before, and 
this claim is invariably shown to be untrue.  The lurkers on this 
newsfroup almost certainly see you for what you are -- a pathetic liar
with the inability to keep his own lies straight, let alone deal with
the refutations of those lies.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight


Article 45474 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 01:13:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4qijq2$kft@access4.digex.net>
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In article <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>	What an idiot. 
>>>
>>>	I told you folks I would do what you have now "discovered" months later.
>>>Alec told you what I would do.  And you choose to ignore it.  
>>>
>>>	Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>>	
>>>	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>>people follow your suggestion.  But PLEASE do not believe me.  I love a
>>>fair fight.  That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>>doing and am going to do.
>>>
>>>	To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over.  I put
>>>the NG back on track.  
>
>>    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>>posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>>given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>
>	And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off.  That is 
>what you are missing. 

    No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.

    Greg Raven was exposed as a liar.  It was repeatedly shown that he
posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.

    Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
that refuted his own theory.

    Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.

    Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
enough.

    Ross Vicksell simply wasn't capable of debating anything.  Every time
you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.

    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
as good as he got from the word go.

    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.

    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
problem, not mine.



>>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.
>
>	It is not my definition.  You certainly read McCarthy's message.  I got
>a similar one from McFly by email.  They obvious had talked it over.  

    Yes, I read his message.  I am privy to the discussions that go on.

    Did you know that I was the one who wrote the mantra, as you call it? 
(The original, not Mark Van Alstine's mutated version.)  Yet I do not use
it.  Because, you see, there really was no conspiracy.  Other people
simply read it, liked it, and decided to use it.  There was no advance
agreement. I never suggested that it be used.  I never intended to use it. 
I have not killfiled you.  I respond to you just the same as I respond to
anyone else, on my own terms, if and when I choose.

    I find it uproariously funny that you think it is such a revelation
that you are now dealing with Nizkor on your own terms.  If you have
ever been doing anything but, then you are very, very, very stupid.

    I have not tried to silence you.  I merely point out when you are
lying or hypocritical.  I have said that if my goal were to defend the
orthodox holocaust story at any cost, I would want you posting forever,
because you are a liar and easily shown to be such.  But if my goal were
to defend the orthodox history at any cost, then I have done some very
strange things.  Ask Jeff Roberts who it was who reported survivor
testimony that they were held in Auschwitz unregistered, then sent off to
other camps without any records being made.

    So you have not beaten me, because I have never played any game other
than the one I have always played.  You can only beat me at it if and when
you start playing it.  But you are not capable of playing that game, 163
IQ or no.

    If and when I decide to deal with you, you will be dealt with, and on
my own terms.  Because just as you can get this newsgroup to do whatever
you want, I can summon spirits from the vasty deep, and invoke daemons by
name.  (And I do not even need a pentagram.)  I'm sure you are suitably
impressed.



>>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>>kind of scientist is that? 
>
>	I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions.  When are you going
>to get around to do so?  

    Excuse me.  You were the one claiming a physics degree and the ability
to do the calculations.  You were the one claiming there was not enough
coke.

    Your claims.  Therefore your burden of proof, as you do not hestitate
to point out to other people who make claims.  Yes, I know you hare not in
the least embarrassed when I point out your hypocrisy.  Nevertheless, you
are once again being hypocritical.

    Your claims, your burden of proof.  Start calculating.

    I think you are actually bluffing and cannot do the computations -
that you do not even know the correct equations.  You are hoping to get
someone else to do them so that you can sit back and say, "You're wrong!" 
without actually having to back up your claims or make any claim which can
then be shown wrong by someone who really _does_ know what they're doing.

    You could, of course, prove me wrong by doing the calculations and
showing your work as you claimed you could do and were challenged to do. 
But I predict you will not, because you are a lying fraud.  That is not an
insult, that is simply a fact, which I cannot change.  Only you can change
it.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45519 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.flame
Date: 21 Jun 1996 10:58:31 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: d31sg0.stanford.edu

In article <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken McVay OBC  wrote:

>G*wer's still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

Agreed.  I just turned mine on.  I intend to login from another account
occasionally to send his service provider copies of clear examples of
net abuse, however.  I've already sent them a couple.

*name edited for the sake of Jamie's perl script.  I bet we can do
better.

Regards,

Rich Green



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


Article 45543 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:28:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4qfpbv$398@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:30:07 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Johan Carlson  wrote:

>Richard J. Green wrote:
>> 
>> I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>> Giwer:
>> 
>> 1. Rich Green
>> 2. Johan Carlson
>> 3.
>> 4.
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Rich Green
>> 
>> PS  If Mr. Giwer repeatedly sends the same text to the newsgroup,
>> however, I will e-mail it back to him and root@ix.netcom.com.
>> 

>Good idea Mr. Green. Maybe the Nizkor people could include (or mention)
>this list in their Giwer Report.

	More threats of harrassment for by choice of sigs.  

	Only holohuggers would even think of such a thing.  

	What is it you folks think you are complaining about?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
.... When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure...
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. "
IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?






Article 45544 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:36:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons"
><104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:

>> Why don't Nizkorians
>> kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
>> Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
>> reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
>> newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

>If you were paying attention, Mr. Coons, you would know that I most
>certainly do not ignore revisionists/deniers.  I pay them quite a
>bit of attention.  I've carried on discussions with (to name a few)
>Jack Wikoff, Bradley Smith, David Cole, David Irving, Andrew Allen,
>Alexander Baron, and I'm trying to discuss something with
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu but technical difficulties are making it hard...

>Anyway, the point is that none of those people has announced that
>their goal is to take over the newsgroup and make it a place where
>discussion is next to impossible.  None of those people is flagrant
>net abusers who troll just to stir up trouble.  And all of those
>people at least had some interest in discussing matters with me.

>Giwer is just a troll, and he's out to destroy discussion.  There's
>nothing wrong with ignoring someone who has those goals.

	Please ignore me.  That makes it easier and all the manufactured
complaints about what I post will go away.  It will be greatly
appreciated.  





Article 45545 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:34:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:36:56 PM CDT 1996
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons"
><104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:



>>> jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
>><4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...

>>> NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>>> 
>>> To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>>An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don't
>>Nizkorians kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
>>Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
>>reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
>>newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

>Well, Mr. Coons your suggestion would seem to indicate that you have
>read very few of Giwer's posts.  As for deniers "killing" Nizkor
>posts, perhaps you have read few of theirs as well.  For all the
>relevance of many of their responses to the points raised in Nizkor
>posts, one might well infer that they are already ignoring them.

	When the fat broads of the conference exemplify the propensity of the
holohuggers to post nothing but personal attacks and abuse in hopes of
running those who refuse to believe as they do there is nothing to
contribute to save to return the abuse.  

	But you know that.  






Article 45548 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 05:20:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
>with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
>closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
>actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
>better.
>
>You make me sick.
>
>

You are such a birdbrain.  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 
I have stated many times where I stand.  I am not going to repeat what
_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
possible advertisement for the revisionist position.

Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
tribunals.  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.  You
have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
you get it back, see? 

Meanwhile, my main sticking point with Giwer, namely, what I would
consider gratuitous slurs against Jews, have been largely absent. So I
will compliment him on that one.  And since the conventionalists have now
started another campaign to either ignore him, or destroy him, I am going
to defend him. Here. Now.

You are so blind that you have no conception of what a good Nazi or NKVD
boy you would be.  On second thought, you do make me sick.

Meanwhile, jump to whatever silly conclusions you like, just don't hurt
yourself in the process.  I will call things as I see them, giving credit
where credit is due on both sides, and slinging garbage to garbage slung. 
What?  Did you think it requires some special _skill_ to kick out your
vociferous, angry, frustrated trash?

Maybe some day you will find some other way to get off in life other than
by engaging in stupid ad hominems on the Usenet.  But I doubt it.



Article 45557 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 23 Jun 1996 11:37:07 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45557 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55590

In article <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>, 
mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.

Actually, this is not the first time we've seen this sort of
long-term, all out assault. As to the numbers, our present
troll is a piker, hardly worth our time.

Consider the fact that Dan Gannon, a man who now finds it more
comfortable - and perhaps more profitable - to offer his users
sexually explicit adult images than Holocaust denial, once
appeared on the UseNet "Top 50 Posters By Volume" on the
entire net. He was consistantly within the top 25 for month
after month. Unlike our present pretender, Mr. Gannon
sometimes spammed as many as 80+ newsgroups at a shot.

Mr. Giwer is a piker, and not even as smart - or as obnoxious
- as Dan Gannon, the master of abuse... a man second only to
the Argic 'bot.

>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>kind of scientist is that? 

Be patient with Mr. Giwer. He has not yet learned those things
which Dan Gannon learned, but he is trying, even if weakly, to
emulate him. Matt Giwer, The Man Who Would Be King: not even a
ranking spammer. It's sad, really. Giwer can't even get net
abuse down pat.

Perhaps Gannon will tire of collecting gifs, and come out of
retirement to show this upstart what it takes to get the job
done.

-- 
Nizkor Canada - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


Article 45563 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 14:16:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4qk1lg$37q@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qcru6$cq3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>
>># Ah, statistics!
>># 
>># It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number
>># of incidents of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same
>># archival quotes, and how many of these produced no thread, not even
>># one response.
>
>>I never posted dozens of copies of the same article in the same day,
>>as Giwer did and continues to do. I never replied to numerous 
>>articles on the same day, simply by quoting them and appending
>>the same article over and over again, dozens of times.
>
>	I use the articles as sigs.  Is that a crime now?  Note that most of
>them are shorter than the mantra you folks delight in using.  
>
>	I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
>be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
>The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
>using as sigs.  

    I note that Mr. Giwer has used these alleged sigs in followups to
articles which could not in any way be called attacks on him.


>	Now where were you when the mantra was being repeated a hundred times a
>day?   Where are you now when there are dozens of threads that consist
>of nothing but attacks upon me?

    Is it an attack on you to point out what can be demonstrated to
courtroom standards?



>	And just what is it that you are objecting to really?  
>
>	Don't tell me.  I know.  I do not believe as you do.

    I have no objection to your believing what you wish.  But you make
provably false statements which you know or have reason to know are false
when you make them.  You dishonestly edit.  Etc. 


>># Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
>># material over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
>># consciousness by default.  (Graber made me do it!!)
>
>>It is typical of "revisionists" to confuse third-rate "cynicism"
>>for intelligence. You're no exception. BTW, it's Grabner, not Graber,
>>which may prove that for small minds all the repetition in the
>>world is not enough. 
>
>	Someone must be making you do it.  To do so on your own would mean you
>have to believe it is contributing something to the discussion.  
>
>>-Danny Keren.
>
>	Now you see, here is an example of an attack.

    Do you deny making those statements?


>>-- 
>>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.
>
>	And my response is 
>
>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
>
>
>" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>entrances to the four-story
>house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
>the same people were
>forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>had to be transferred to one
>place in the courtyard. "
>IMT VII - p.491. 
>
>	See how it goes?

    Yes.  How does this address the alleged attack?  Do you deny making
those statements?  If not, how can they be an attack?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45575 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:30:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, 
>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>>Giwer:

>Giwer's still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

	Quite interesting that you would occasionly post to me if in fact you
have such a thing in effect.  You will have to be more consistent than
you are to think this one is going to fly.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
.... When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure...
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. "
IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?





Article 45579 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:37:18 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4qhuv7$mks@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>writes:
>
>>	Holohuggers are so firmly into thought control that they will do
>>anything they can to try to silence those they disagree with.  
>>
>>
>
>It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
>they pretend to hate.

I see, Alan. You have decided to come out into your true colors. I
thought as much. What happened to your martyred exit. didn't work for
you, eh?



He who laughs last thinks slowest.


Article 45583 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:13:23 -0300
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <31CD7B33.8AB@unb.ca>
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Ehrlich606 wrote:
> 
> In article <4qhuv7$mks@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> writes:
> 
> >       Holohuggers are so firmly into thought control that they will do
> >anything they can to try to silence those they disagree with.
> >
> >
> 
> It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
> they pretend to hate.

Glad to see you came out of the closet.  It's so much easier
when you don't have to pretend to be an objective and impationate
observer and commentator, is it not?

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


Article 45593 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 10:14:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 231
Message-ID: <4qjjft$r1f@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>>    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>>>>posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>>>Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>>>>given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>>>
>>>	And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off.  That is 
>>>what you are missing. 
>
>>    No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.
>
>>    Greg Raven was exposed as a liar.  It was repeatedly shown that he
>>posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
>>paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.
>
>>    Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
>>document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
>>that refuted his own theory.
>
>>    Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
>>of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.
>
>>    Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
>>introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
>>yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
>>enough.
>
>>    Ross Vicksell simply wasn't capable of debating anything.  Every time
>>you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.
>
>>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>as good as he got from the word go.
>
>>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>
>>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>>problem, not mine.
>
>	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
>declaration of victory.  

    It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat.  Contrary to
what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
yes, there was some - but you provide your share).  They were presented
with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).

    Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate.  That game was
agreed to.  Debate is a game with well-understood rules.  One of them is,
you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.

    Who agreed to play your game?  That is a relevant distinction.


>	You have shot down your own side's position.  Thank you again.  

    Many of them falsified evidence and were caught at it. They were not
able to play the game according to the standard rules.  And please, spare
me the irrelevant digression about the Soviets.  You are free to post any
evidence you have that any particular document is forged.  "It could be" 
and "they did it elsewhere" doesn't count.  And we could also discuss a
few documents which either did not come from Soviet sources, or which have
had corroborations of authenticity.  But that would expose your lie that
there is nothing but eyewitness testimony.

    Nobody agreed to play your game, which seems to have rules you make up
as you go along.



>>>>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>>>>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>>>>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.
>>>
>>>	It is not my definition.  You certainly read McCarthy's message.  I got
>>>a similar one from McFly by email.  They obvious had talked it over.  
>
>>    Yes, I read his message.  I am privy to the discussions that go on.
>
>	Conspiracy admitted.  Thank you again.  It is only a matter of time
>before you folks contradict those who deny these things are going on.

    By that definition you conspired with Combase to censor Rack Jite. 
Let's leave aside for now the fact that no court ruled on this alleged
libel.  As you know, you did not simply say that the libelous statements
would go away from the page.  You said the whole page would go away.  So
you can predict the future now?

    It is only a conspiracy when people agree to do something to achieve a
common devious purpose.  Much of the discussion consists of stupefaction
at your latest stupidity. 

    Yes, we are all conspiring to have a good laugh at you.  Call the
police, that is clearly illegal.


>>    Did you know that I was the one who wrote the mantra, as you call it? 
>
>	And you were a conspirator.  Thank you again. 

    I never agreed to do anything nor urged anyone else to take their
courses of action.  I wrote something and others picked it up and used it
at their own decision for their own purposes.  And what was so nefarious
about those purposes?

    You have conspired with Greg Raven by that definition.  His website
carries text you wrote.  He has used it for his own purposes which are at
least as nefarious as those for which the "mantra" was used.

    You are a conspirator as well.


>>(The original, not Mark Van Alstine's mutated version.)  Yet I do not use
>>it.  Because, you see, there really was no conspiracy.  Other people
>>simply read it, liked it, and decided to use it.  There was no advance
>>agreement. I never suggested that it be used.  I never intended to use it. 
>>I have not killfiled you.  I respond to you just the same as I respond to
>>anyone else, on my own terms, if and when I choose.
>
>	The agreement was posted.   It is on Dejanews.

    Got a URL to go with that?  Your claim, your burden of proof.  I post
the URLs with my claims or will do so if challenged.  I am now challenging
you.

    I will not be holding my breath.



>>    I find it uproariously funny that you think it is such a revelation
>>that you are now dealing with Nizkor on your own terms.  If you have
>>ever been doing anything but, then you are very, very, very stupid.
>
>	Agreed in that.  I am certainly not capable of singlehandedly hijacking
>this conference as I have been accused of doing.
>
>>    I have not tried to silence you.  I merely point out when you are
>>lying or hypocritical.  I have said that if my goal were to defend the
>>orthodox holocaust story at any cost, I would want you posting forever,
>>because you are a liar and easily shown to be such.  But if my goal were
>>to defend the orthodox history at any cost, then I have done some very
>>strange things.  Ask Jeff Roberts who it was who reported survivor
>>testimony that they were held in Auschwitz unregistered, then sent off to
>>other camps without any records being made.
>
>>    So you have not beaten me, because I have never played any game other
>>than the one I have always played.  You can only beat me at it if and when
>>you start playing it.  But you are not capable of playing that game, 163
>>IQ or no.
>
>	Right, just one more stupid holohugger among many, right up there with
>Ferree and Dahlman.

    Any time you wish to play the debate game you can find out how stupid
I am.  Right now you are just engaging in empty insult.


>>    If and when I decide to deal with you, you will be dealt with, and on
>>my own terms.  Because just as you can get this newsgroup to do whatever
>>you want, I can summon spirits from the vasty deep, and invoke daemons by
>>name.  (And I do not even need a pentagram.)  I'm sure you are suitably
>>impressed.
>
>	Sounds serious.  Why am I not concerned in the least?

    Did you know the daemons come when I call them?  Now are you
concerned?


>>>>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>>>>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>>>>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>>>>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>>>>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>>>>kind of scientist is that? 
>>>
>>>	I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions.  When are you going
>>>to get around to do so?  
>
>>    Excuse me.  You were the one claiming a physics degree and the ability
>>to do the calculations.  You were the one claiming there was not enough
>>coke.
>
>	You can not disagree with me without having first run your own
>calculations to establish your position.

    That is true.  But I do not need to run them now.  And even if I have
run them, I do not need to post them now.  They will be as true or as
false now as they would be later.

    Your claim, your burden of proof.  Therefore you first.

    That is how the debate game is played.

    But lying frauds are not capable of playing that game according to the
well-established rules.


>When do we all see them?  NEver?

    Your claim, your burden of proof.  Therefore you first.  And remember,
you cannot merely pick a number out of the air and say, "prove me wrong." 
You must show support for it.  You must present your formula and justify
it.  You must provide evidence, not assertion.

    Once you have done that, and only then, the burden shifts to me to
show where you are wrong.

    That is how the debate game works.

    But lying frauds are not capable of playing that game.  163 IQ or no.


>That is what I knew all along.  

    Lying frauds are not capable of playing the debate game according to
the well-defined rules, 163 IQ or no.  That is what I knew all along.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45595 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:52:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>[snip]

>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."

>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>complain to me.  

>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.

	There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to plan
how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the Nizkor
gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day, the
posts have been confirmed.

	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  





Article 45604 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:58:51 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <31cb2bbe.2930003@news.eden.com>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>Giwer:

1. Rich Green
2. Mike Curtis
3.
4.

>.
>.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>PS  If Mr. Giwer repeatedly sends the same text to the newsgroup,
>however, I will e-mail it back to him and root@ix.netcom.com.
>
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>	"Remember the days of yore,
>	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>		-Deuteronomy 32:7



Article 45608 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:58:53 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31cb2bf6.2986461@news.eden.com>
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"Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:

>
>
>> jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
><4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...
>
>> NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>> 
>> To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile
>
>An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don't
>Nizkorians kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
>Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
>reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
>newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

Who are these Nizkorians?

Mike Curtis


Article 45621 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4qidps$jna@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:09:20 GMT
Lines: 34

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
# dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
## mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
 
### The situation is that some years ago there was an organized
### effort by at least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order
### to prevent revisionism to be discussed.
 
## And outright lie from a pathological liar.
 
### They brag about having driven off everyone who tries to discuss 
### revisionism.
 
## Example?
 
# You must be blind. 

Example?

# I gave only the short list.  I left out the phone calls, the
# mail bombs and a couple other things. 

Yeh, yeh, sure. The folks in Zundel's UFO's calling you
in the midst of the night, huh?

Your inability to explain your lies about Belsen, Zyklon-B,
etc, with nothing but "Holohuggers are still scum", is duly
noted; it reflects well on your frustration and your zero 
intellectual capacity.


-Danny Keren.




Article 45647 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:48:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qcru6$cq3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>>
>>># Ah, statistics!
>>># 
>>># It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number
>>># of incidents of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same
>>># archival quotes, and how many of these produced no thread, not even
>>># one response.
>>
>>>I never posted dozens of copies of the same article in the same day,
>>>as Giwer did and continues to do. I never replied to numerous 
>>>articles on the same day, simply by quoting them and appending
>>>the same article over and over again, dozens of times.
>>
>>	I use the articles as sigs.  Is that a crime now?  Note that most of
>>them are shorter than the mantra you folks delight in using.  
>>
>>	I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
>>be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
>>The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
>>using as sigs.  

>    I note that Mr. Giwer has used these alleged sigs in followups to
>articles which could not in any way be called attacks on him.

	Or I can simply use them as sigs for no reason other than to have a sig.
Do you have a problem with that?  

>>	Now where were you when the mantra was being repeated a hundred times a
>>day?   Where are you now when there are dozens of threads that consist
>>of nothing but attacks upon me?

>    Is it an attack on you to point out what can be demonstrated to
>courtroom standards?

	I consider it to be one.  I am the one deciding what I append to my
messages.  It is not up to you to decide for me.  

>>	And just what is it that you are objecting to really?  
>>
>>	Don't tell me.  I know.  I do not believe as you do.

>    I have no objection to your believing what you wish.  But you make
>provably false statements which you know or have reason to know are false
>when you make them.  You dishonestly edit.  Etc. 

	It is only if I say what I do not believe that you folks will start into
your standard personal and family harrassment routine.  

>>># Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
>>># material over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
>>># consciousness by default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

>>>It is typical of "revisionists" to confuse third-rate "cynicism"
>>>for intelligence. You're no exception. BTW, it's Grabner, not Graber,
>>>which may prove that for small minds all the repetition in the
>>>world is not enough. 

>>	Someone must be making you do it.  To do so on your own would mean you
>>have to believe it is contributing something to the discussion.  

>>>-Danny Keren.

>>	Now you see, here is an example of an attack.

>    Do you deny making those statements?

	Do I deny making anything more than a guess?  Yes.  It is one document
compared to thousands that make no such reference.  The unique is what
needs to be explained with other then PNE.  I suggested a morbid sense
of humor.  And as you know, there has been absolutely no other
possibility considered by the holohuggers.  

	And you have missed that upon more careful reading I have suggested that
it is more likely a reference to two different rooms.  

>>>-- 
>>>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>>>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>>>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>>>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.
>>
>>	And my response is 
>>
>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
>>
>>
>>" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>>entrances to the four-story
>>house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
>>the same people were
>>forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>>had to be transferred to one
>>place in the courtyard. "
>>IMT VII - p.491. 
>>
>>	See how it goes?

>    Yes.  How does this address the alleged attack?  Do you deny making
>those statements?  If not, how can they be an attack?

	As I said, when I am attacked, I will attack your precious holocaust.
The choice of the means of response is mine.  






Article 45652 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:55:08 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov) writes:
>
>>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of
>incidents
>>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>>
>>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike "revisionist" quotes,
>>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>>are intended to be.  Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>>discussion
>
>Let me get this straight: Someone did a poll of the readership of alt.rev.
>and found that they prefer to read the informative documents of Mssrs.
>McVay and Keren, while the informative documents of Mssrs. Giwer et al.
>are not appreciated.  I doubt this.  I suspect that someone comes to
>alt.rev. to find out what is here.  

And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
better.

You make me sick.


>They do not come here to be told one
>side of the story.   If only one side of the story was _allowed_ this news
>group would not even exist.  Furthermore, Mr. Giwer's series of exposes
>are the foolishness that went on at Nuremberg has clearly convinced the
>lurkers.
>

He who laughs last thinks slowest.


Article 45675 of alt.revisionism:
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From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 24 Jun 1996 00:58:02 -0400
Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless
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In article <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:

>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

Since I find it impossible to believe that they copy you on their
email, you're claiming to have read other people's email without their
permission.  That's a felony in the US.

Or are you just lying (as usual)?

Seth


Article 45678 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:57:24 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
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Message-ID: <31ce55a6.50636911@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45678 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55727

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:52:58 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>>[snip]

>>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."

>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

>>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>>complain to me.  

>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.

>	There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to plan
>how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the Nizkor
>gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day, the
>posts have been confirmed.

>	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  

In other words, you are accusing me personally of conspiring to
prevent discussion on alt.revisionism 

1) on the basis of inferences about the posts of other people
2) about unspecified posting practices which I may or may
   not have adopted
3) and through guilt by association

For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
withdraw the allegation.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 45691 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jhahn@crl.com (John Hahn)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:20:04 GMT
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>
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On 22 Jun 1996 22:00:11 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>  Furthermore, Mr. Giwer's series of exposes
>are the foolishness that went on at Nuremberg has clearly convinced the
>lurkers.
>
What planet are you from? (I assume that's ' ... of the foolishness
..'

	A lurker



Article 45702 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:59:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>The point being, perhaps, that Mr. Thomas acknowledges that
>"revisionists" choose to engage in "propagandizing of a base sort" -
>as opposed to legitimate presentation of verifiable documentation to
>support their "arguments".
>
>

All of the supremely apt quotes that Giwer has posted have been
verifiable, indeed, most of them have the imprimatur of Nuremberg on them,
which is more than can be said for many of the others.


Article 45704 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:00:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of
incidents
>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>
>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike "revisionist" quotes,
>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>are intended to be.  Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>discussion

Let me get this straight: Someone did a poll of the readership of alt.rev.
and found that they prefer to read the informative documents of Mssrs.
McVay and Keren, while the informative documents of Mssrs. Giwer et al.
are not appreciated.  I doubt this.  I suspect that someone comes to
alt.rev. to find out what is here.  They do not come here to be told one
side of the story.   If only one side of the story was _allowed_ this news
group would not even exist.  Furthermore, Mr. Giwer's series of exposes
are the foolishness that went on at Nuremberg has clearly convinced the
lurkers.



Article 45711 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 19-20: 25.1% / 32.5%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 24 Jun 1996 05:07:48 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4qm0ek$7gl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
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X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45711 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55748

   "...we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
    revisionism.  That is, make it useless to the hijackers."
                                      - Matt Giwer, June 21, 1996

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly taken over alt.revisionism.  With trolls,
with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word
responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point,
he has buried the signal under an avalanche of noise.

Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront "revisionist"
claims.  Giwer's aim is to make that impossible.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and thus his success in monopolizing the group.

Here are the statistics for June 19th and 20th:

  Total number of articles posted: 495

         Articles from Matt Giwer: 124 (25.1%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 161 (32.5%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 62
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 80.5

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
from Giwer;  each "m" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

Jun 20: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 19: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm

For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

Jun 18: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 17: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 16: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmm
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmm


It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl



Article 45715 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:37:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4qijq2$kft@access4.digex.net> <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4qjjft$r1f@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  6:39:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4qhshh$ci8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>  wrote:
>>>>>    Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>>>>>posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>>>>Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>>>>>given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>>>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>>>>
>>>>	And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off.  That is 
>>>>what you are missing. 
>>
>>>    No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.
>>
>>>    Greg Raven was exposed as a liar.  It was repeatedly shown that he
>>>posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
>>>paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.
>>
>>>    Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
>>>document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
>>>that refuted his own theory.
>>
>>>    Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
>>>of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.
>>
>>>    Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
>>>introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
>>>yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
>>>enough.
>>
>>>    Ross Vicksell simply wasn't capable of debating anything.  Every time
>>>you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.
>>
>>>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>
>>>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>
>>>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>>>problem, not mine.
>>
>>	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
>>declaration of victory.  

>    It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat.  Contrary to
>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>yes, there was some - but you provide your share).  They were presented
>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).

>    Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate.  That game was
>agreed to.  Debate is a game with well-understood rules.  One of them is,
>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.

>    Who agreed to play your game?  That is a relevant distinction.

	Debate was not the method here.  Personal and family harrassment was the
name of the method here.  

	In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.  




Article 45769 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:17:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com> <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qk3ns$5fd@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  4:20:07 PM PDT 1996
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:

>>You are such a birdbrain.  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 
>>I have stated many times where I stand.  I am not going to repeat what
>>_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
>>whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
>>possible advertisement for the revisionist position.

>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.

>>Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
>>tribunals.  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
>>*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>>balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.  You
>>have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
>>you get it back, see? 

>Mr. Ehrlich, Mr. Giwer seems to leave a lot of loose ends in his posts.
>It seems that every post he makes contain scientific and historical
>errors.  Certainly, you can't be blind to the caliber of his responses
>to being challenged on such facts.  I'm certain, however, that you can
>do better.  Perhaps, you can make up for the intellectual paucity of Mr.
>Giwer's posts by providing evidence where he refuses.

	You flat out misrepresent posts here.  

>For instance, eyewitness testimony, in many cases, refers to Zyklon-B
>as being blue.  Mr. Giwer claims that Zyklon-B cannot be blue.  When
>pressed, he changes the topic or engages in argumentum ad hominem.  Mr.
>Ehrlich, what is your opinion?  Is ERCO one of the supports for
>Zyklon-B?  Is ERCO blue?

	At this point I FOUND AND POSTED the Degesh Publication regarding the
use of Zyklon B for pest control.  This is the same document some
holohugger claimed to have but would not post.  I pointed out that this
publication mentions only wood pulp.  

	That is what I did.  That is what YOU DESCRIBE as changing the subject
and ad hominem attack.

	I also found and posted another document that it NOT limited to pest
control and which mentions two other carriers, one of which is described
as blue.  THEN you folks started claiming that this proves blue is
correct, even insisting it was in fact the Degesh pub when it clearly
was not.  

	That is what I did.  That is what YOU DESCRIBE as changing the subject
and ad hominem attack.

	And what you are clearly doing now is misrepresenting what happened.  

	Why do you do that?  

>When you resolve this question perhaps we can address the exothermicity
>of combusting the human body.  In your opinion, Mr. Ehrlich, is
>combustion of the human body an exothermic or an endothermic process?

	Weren't you the one who was using Hebrew Union sausage which has fat
with more than 900 calories per gram?  What do they use in it?  Pure
Jewish Fat?  

>I hope that we can finally address many more of Mr. Giwer's assertions
>with someone who is more reasonable than Mr. Giwer.  I await your
>response.

	How many more of them do you plan to misrepresent?  

>Regards,

>Rich Green

>PS I'm sure that Mr. Giwer will respond to this post, but I've abandoned
>any hope of getting a rational response from him.   I hope that Mr.
>Ehrlich will do me the courtesy of replying.

	Yes, you were quite correct that I would.  I corrected your
misrepresentation.  




Article 45774 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 11:51:40 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4qk3ns$5fd@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
References: <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com> <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:

>You are such a birdbrain.  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 
>I have stated many times where I stand.  I am not going to repeat what
>_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
>whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
>possible advertisement for the revisionist position.

Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.

>Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
>tribunals.  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
>*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.  You
>have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
>you get it back, see? 

Mr. Ehrlich, Mr. Giwer seems to leave a lot of loose ends in his posts.
It seems that every post he makes contain scientific and historical
errors.  Certainly, you can't be blind to the caliber of his responses
to being challenged on such facts.  I'm certain, however, that you can
do better.  Perhaps, you can make up for the intellectual paucity of Mr.
Giwer's posts by providing evidence where he refuses.

For instance, eyewitness testimony, in many cases, refers to Zyklon-B
as being blue.  Mr. Giwer claims that Zyklon-B cannot be blue.  When
pressed, he changes the topic or engages in argumentum ad hominem.  Mr.
Ehrlich, what is your opinion?  Is ERCO one of the supports for
Zyklon-B?  Is ERCO blue?

When you resolve this question perhaps we can address the exothermicity
of combusting the human body.  In your opinion, Mr. Ehrlich, is
combustion of the human body an exothermic or an endothermic process?

I hope that we can finally address many more of Mr. Giwer's assertions
with someone who is more reasonable than Mr. Giwer.  I await your
response.

Regards,

Rich Green

PS I'm sure that Mr. Giwer will respond to this post, but I've abandoned
any hope of getting a rational response from him.   I hope that Mr.
Ehrlich will do me the courtesy of replying.

>
>Meanwhile, my main sticking point with Giwer, namely, what I would
>consider gratuitous slurs against Jews, have been largely absent. So I
>will compliment him on that one.  And since the conventionalists have now
>started another campaign to either ignore him, or destroy him, I am going
>to defend him. Here. Now.
>
>You are so blind that you have no conception of what a good Nazi or NKVD
>boy you would be.  On second thought, you do make me sick.
>
>Meanwhile, jump to whatever silly conclusions you like, just don't hurt
>yourself in the process.  I will call things as I see them, giving credit
>where credit is due on both sides, and slinging garbage to garbage slung. 
>What?  Did you think it requires some special _skill_ to kick out your
>vociferous, angry, frustrated trash?
>
>Maybe some day you will find some other way to get off in life other than
>by engaging in stupid ad hominems on the Usenet.  But I doubt it.
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


Article 45791 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:55:09 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <31cf8d4b.58604310@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31ce55a6.50636911@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qmv1d$bu0@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45791 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55826

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

[snip]

>>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>>withdraw the allegation.

>	Guilt by association will go just fine.  

I asked three times for evidence of his allegations; three times Mr.
Giwer failed to produce it.

Well, this is as close as anyone ever gets to getting an admission
from Mr. Giwer that his allegations are groundless, so I guess I'll
just have to be satisified.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 45794 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4qo4e0$m12@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ql78q$fqv@panix3.panix.com> <4qno0k$iac@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45794 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55827

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4ql78q$fqv@panix3.panix.com>, sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
>said:

>>
>>In article <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:

>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>Since I find it impossible to believe that they copy you on their email,
>>you're claiming to have read other people's email without their
>>permission.  That's a felony in the US.

>>Or are you just lying (as usual)?

>He's just lying as usual.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  





>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                       




Article 45795 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:25:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4qo4f1$m12@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qnnvj$qpg@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45795 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55828

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article ,
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) said:

>[snip]

>>Posted;  cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  Please redirect
>>followups to whichever group is most appropriate.

>>Not emailed to "DvdThomas," because he has said he doesn't care to receive
>>email from me.  Not emailed to Matt Giwer, because he has said he doesn't
>>care to receive email from me.

>Giwer is afraid to receive e-mail from you.  He can't cope with it.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  




>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                      




Article 45801 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:10:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4qo724$ik1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45801 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55831

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>[snip]

>>>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>>>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>>>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>>>withdraw the allegation.

>>	Guilt by association will go just fine.  

>I asked three times for evidence of his allegations; three times Mr.
>Giwer failed to produce it.

>Well, this is as close as anyone ever gets to getting an admission
>from Mr. Giwer that his allegations are groundless, so I guess I'll
>just have to be satisified.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


	Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
with the conspirators.  

	It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
himself with the conspirators. 



Article 45836 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:38:30 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net> <835481149snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan085.kaiwan.com

> In article <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
>            mstein@access5.digex.net "Michael P. Stein" writes:
> >     Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
> > posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
> > Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
> > given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
> > J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

My claims were addressed? This is news to me. I have repeatedly posted a
couple of simple questions to this newsgroup, and virtually all the
responses were personal attacks and long digressions on matters almost
totally unrelated to my question. The one or two "substantive" responses
were laughably silly.

Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas chamber when I
wasn't looking?

-- 
Greg Raver (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
P.O. Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627 USA
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


Article 45842 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:29:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4qj2v3$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>>Ostrov) writes:
>>
>>>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of
>>incidents
>>>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>>>
>>>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike "revisionist" quotes,
>>>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>>>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>>>are intended to be.  Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>>>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>>>discussion
>>
>>Let me get this straight: Someone did a poll of the readership of alt.rev.
>>and found that they prefer to read the informative documents of Mssrs.
>>McVay and Keren, while the informative documents of Mssrs. Giwer et al.
>>are not appreciated.  I doubt this.  I suspect that someone comes to
>>alt.rev. to find out what is here.  

>And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
>with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
>closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
>actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
>better.

>You make me sick.

	You were already.  

>>They do not come here to be told one
>>side of the story.   If only one side of the story was _allowed_ this news
>>group would not even exist.  Furthermore, Mr. Giwer's series of exposes
>>are the foolishness that went on at Nuremberg has clearly convinced the
>>lurkers.
>>

>He who laughs last thinks slowest.

	That is why you have still not gotten the joke of the holocaust.  




Article 45844 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:57:35 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
>Curtis) writes:
>
>>
>>And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
>>with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
>>closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
>>actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
>>better.
>>
>>You make me sick.
>>
>>
>
>You are such a birdbrain.

Ew, that hurts. :-) Note the ad hominem.

>  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 

You may already be. I know you don't have time. You can't substantiate
your claims when asked because you get bored or don't have time.

>I have stated many times where I stand.

Yes, you have. Why don't you start substantiating some of it by doing
your own work.


>  I am not going to repeat what
>_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
>whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
>possible advertisement for the revisionist position.
>

Ad hominem. Cute though, but it does show that you need help.

>Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
>tribunals.  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.

As long as there discussed and not just presented without comment on
them.

>  It is up to
>*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.

Which testimony and how is it false or doubtful? Make a case, the ball
is in your court.

>  You
>have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
>you get it back, see? 

Poor dear Alan.

>
>Meanwhile, my main sticking point with Giwer, namely, what I would
>consider gratuitous slurs against Jews, have been largely absent. So I
>will compliment him on that one.  And since the conventionalists have now
>started another campaign to either ignore him, or destroy him, I am going
>to defend him. Here. Now.

Defend him if you like. Why don't you take the higher road and make
better aergument than he does. So this is wy your back, to denfend a
troll. I think you need to learn more about Giwer before you dive into
this one.

>
>You are so blind that you have no conception of what a good Nazi or NKVD
>boy you would be.  On second thought, you do make me sick.

Ew, another ad hominem. Cool. Keep it up Alan, your starting to sound
like Baron and the rest of the distortionists.
>

>Meanwhile, jump to whatever silly conclusions you like, just don't hurt
>yourself in the process.  I will call things as I see them, giving credit
>where credit is due on both sides, and slinging garbage to garbage slung. 

Why are you back?

>What?  Did you think it requires some special _skill_ to kick out your
>vociferous, angry, frustrated trash?

Hehe.

>
>Maybe some day you will find some other way to get off in life other than
>by engaging in stupid ad hominems on the Usenet.  But I doubt it.
>
You are my special case. I want you to present something of value with
some meat behind it. But when asked you tend to resort to the stuff
above or ignore the request. 

Carry on, Alan.


He who laughs last thinks slowest.


Article 45858 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:25:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31CDDA53.72D2@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  said:

>>Mr Giwer apparently defines the word "attack" to indicate those posts that
>>prove him wrong.  For example,

>That would explain why he posts so much, since virtually every post proves
>the idiot wrong about something.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  




>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                             




Article 45866 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 24 Jun 1996 14:09:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <4qmlk8$ete@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>
>>>You are such a birdbrain.  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 
>>>I have stated many times where I stand.  I am not going to repeat what
>>>_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
>>>whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
>>>possible advertisement for the revisionist position.
>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.
>
>>>Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
>>>tribunals.  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
>>>*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>>>balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.  You
>>>have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
>>>you get it back, see? 
>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, Mr. Giwer seems to leave a lot of loose ends in his posts.
>>It seems that every post he makes contain scientific and historical
>>errors.  Certainly, you can't be blind to the caliber of his responses
>>to being challenged on such facts.  I'm certain, however, that you can
>>do better.  Perhaps, you can make up for the intellectual paucity of Mr.
>>Giwer's posts by providing evidence where he refuses.
>
>	You flat out misrepresent posts here.

    That is false.



>>For instance, eyewitness testimony, in many cases, refers to Zyklon-B
>>as being blue.  Mr. Giwer claims that Zyklon-B cannot be blue.  When
>>pressed, he changes the topic or engages in argumentum ad hominem.  Mr.
>>Ehrlich, what is your opinion?  Is ERCO one of the supports for
>>Zyklon-B?  Is ERCO blue?
>
>	At this point I FOUND AND POSTED the Degesh Publication regarding the
>use of Zyklon B for pest control.

    Did anyone ever see a date and source for this?


>This is the same document some
>holohugger claimed to have but would not post.  I pointed out that this
>publication mentions only wood pulp.  
>
>	That is what I did.  That is what YOU DESCRIBE as changing the subject
>and ad hominem attack.
>
>	I also found and posted another document that it NOT limited to pest
>control and which mentions two other carriers, one of which is described
>as blue.  THEN you folks started claiming that this proves blue is
>correct, even insisting it was in fact the Degesh pub when it clearly
>was not.
>
>	That is what I did.  That is what YOU DESCRIBE as changing the subject
>and ad hominem attack.
>
>	And what you are clearly doing now is misrepresenting what happened.  
>
>	Why do you do that?  
>
>>When you resolve this question perhaps we can address the exothermicity
>>of combusting the human body.  In your opinion, Mr. Ehrlich, is
>>combustion of the human body an exothermic or an endothermic process?
>
>	Weren't you the one who was using Hebrew Union sausage which has fat
>with more than 900 calories per gram?  What do they use in it?  Pure
>Jewish Fat?  

    No, I was the one introducing a Hebrew National Polish sausage with
190 fat calories in 22 grams of fat.  Anyone can visit the grocery store
and look at the nutrition label themselves.  But a dietary calorie is
actually what a physicist would call a kilocalorie.  So we have 190,000
small calories over 22g.  That works out to 8,636 small calories per gram.
Rich Green had rounded it to 9,000, it appears.  But that is 9 dietary
calories per gram.

    Mr. Giwer a) could not remember who said what, b) could not remember
the number which was cited, and c) appears to be trying to deceive people
over the difference between a dietary calorie and a calorie in physics.
And remember, Mr. Giwer claims a degree in physics.

    Mr. Giwer is the one misrepresenting here.


>>I hope that we can finally address many more of Mr. Giwer's assertions
>>with someone who is more reasonable than Mr. Giwer.  I await your
>>response.
>
>	How many more of them do you plan to misrepresent?  

    Mr. Giwer cannot keep anything straight, it would seem.  He has also
denied writing words DejaNews records him as writing.


>>Regards,
>
>>Rich Green
>
>>PS I'm sure that Mr. Giwer will respond to this post, but I've abandoned
>>any hope of getting a rational response from him.   I hope that Mr.
>>Ehrlich will do me the courtesy of replying.
>
>	Yes, you were quite correct that I would.  I corrected your
>misrepresentation.  

    Mr. Giwer lied again.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 45873 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:55:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <4qmkql$ebc@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
>Curtis) writes:
>
>>
>>And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
>>with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
>>closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
>>actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
>>better.
>>
>>You make me sick.
>>
>>
>
>You are such a birdbrain.  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 
>I have stated many times where I stand.  I am not going to repeat what
>_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
>whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
>possible advertisement for the revisionist position.
>
>Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
>tribunals.

    If you don't count the lies, refusals to post documentation, etc.


>  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
>*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.

    Much of it is doubtful.  I want to go back and check the full context
to see if some of it is not really testimony.  Carlos Porter pulled things
out of prosecutors' statements and presented it as if it had been actual
evidence.  But prosecutors' statements (which can include rumors) are not
evidence.  And I know much of what Mr. Giwer has posted has come from
Porter.  But Giwer also plagiarizes, sometimes (not always) taking text
from web sites without giving the source so that it can be seen in
context, footnotes checked, etc.

    If _you_ want to discuss something without the intellectually
dishonest tactics Matt Giwer uses when issues are discussed with him, I'll
be happy to talk to you.  But Mr. Giwer does not engage in fair debate
according to the rules.


>You
>have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
>you get it back, see? 
>
>Meanwhile, my main sticking point with Giwer, namely, what I would
>consider gratuitous slurs against Jews, have been largely absent.  So I
>will compliment him on that one.  And since the conventionalists have now
>started another campaign to either ignore him, or destroy him, I am going
>to defend him. Here. Now.

    You have no problem with his provable lies?  You have no problem with
the fact that he kept insisting I should do the computations to back up
his claim (for which he bears burden of proof)?  You have no problem with
the fact that when I steadfastly refused, saying he should go first, he
lied and accused me of deleting his computations - which he had not posted
in any article to which I had responded?  You have no problem with his
denying words DejaNews records him as having written?  You have no problem
with the fact that he writes in a way as to insinuate that _anyone_ who
opposes him is complicit in attempts to harrass his family, shut him up,
etc.?

    If you have no problem with any of that, I think you have a problem,
sir.



>You are so blind that you have no conception of what a good Nazi or NKVD
>boy you would be.  On second thought, you do make me sick.
>
>Meanwhile, jump to whatever silly conclusions you like, just don't hurt
>yourself in the process.  I will call things as I see them, giving credit
>where credit is due on both sides, and slinging garbage to garbage slung. 

    I must have missed your response to Mr. Giwer's garbage-slinging as I
have described above.  Whatever your opinion of Mr. Curtis, I defy you to
find evidence that I have engaged in any of the things Mr. Giwer has
accused me of.

    I have "conspired" to build the most effective documented case to
prove that Mr. Giwer has told the lies he has told and made the errors he
has made.  If coordinating and consulting to document the truth is an evil
conspiracy, then I guess I am guilty.  But shut him up?  I have not even
complained to Mr. Giwer's service provider about his provable libel,
complaints Mr. Giwer implies are OK to make.  Yet he has called me a
member of the "conspiracy."

    The conspiracy is not to destroy him.  Mr. Giwer has destroyed himself
by lying.  If he doesn't like people using their free speech rights to
point this out, that's tough.


>What?  Did you think it requires some special _skill_ to kick out your
>vociferous, angry, frustrated trash?
>
>Maybe some day you will find some other way to get off in life other than
>by engaging in stupid ad hominems on the Usenet.  But I doubt it.

    Perhaps you should check more carefully the people you are defending. 
Matt Giwer has lied, and lied repeatedly, both about evidence regarding
the Holocaust and about persons posting in this newsgroup, including me.
You are defending a liar.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 55029 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: bud.jamison@thekat.esnet.com (Bud Jamison)
Date: 19 Jun 96 21:35:46 
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Message-ID: <9c4_9606200200@thekat.esnet.com>
X-FTN-To: Jamie McCarthy
Organization: Alien Biker Kat BBS
Lines: 12


JM> activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.

The right to 'free speech' is a guarantee that the _GOVERNMENT_` can't stop 
you (technically, they can't prevent you from speaking AGAINST the 
Government).

Nothing says that any individual can't do whatever they want to stop it (THAT 
has become known as free speech also), and no one has to LISTEN to someone 
else's speech.

... As King Arthur said: Some days it all seems so feudal.


Article 55033 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: dbromage@metz.une.edu.au (David Bromage)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 20 Jun 1996 10:49:06 GMT
Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
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Bud Jamison (bud.jamison@thekat.esnet.com) wrote:
>
>JM> activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>
>The right to 'free speech' is a guarantee that the _GOVERNMENT_` can't stop 
>you (technically, they can't prevent you from speaking AGAINST the 
>Government).
>
>Nothing says that any individual can't do whatever they want to stop it (THAT 
>has become known as free speech also), and no one has to LISTEN to someone 
>else's speech.

Certainly you have the right to speak. You do NOT have the right to blare
your speech at me through a bullhorn over and over again. :)

Cheers
David

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bromage                                        dbromage@metz.une.edu.au 
Department of Chemistry                      http://metz.une.edu.au/~dbromage
University of New England           "On the Internet people who are normally
Armidale, NSW 2351                   under rocks are out there and in your
Australia                            face" - Douglas Adams



Article 55144 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:28:17 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qcaqv$5j4@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

> >singlehandedly
> 
> I don't believe this is true. Posts "from Matt Giwer" have come from more
> than one machine at once. They've got at least two Windows boxes, one
> configured with a WinGate proxy server and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> (Matt Giwer)", the other a WinGate client and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com" 
> [no GCOS name].

Rich, for those of us who don't know what WinGate is, could you explain
what this means?

Is it logical to conclude that Giwer has a friend, or multiple friends,
using his account?  Are the client and server necessarily on the same LAN,
or could a client anywhere on the internet access his server?

Do we know for sure that WinGate is the culprit?

And what possible advantage could there be in his using WinGate?

Thanks.

Posted/emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.


Article 55152 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:49:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca writes:
>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.

>I don't believe this is true. 

	You should believe it.  The holohuggers got together by email and
decided it is true.  

Posts "from Matt Giwer" have come from more
>than one machine at once. They've got at least two Windows boxes, one
>configured with a WinGate proxy server and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer)", the other a WinGate client and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com" 
>[no GCOS name]. Because of the proxy server setup, articles show up with
>the same NNTP-Posting-Host, but the From: line and other differences
>distinguish which articles were posted from which machine.

	Gee, you mean a company the size of Netcom has only one outgoing mail
server?  I wonder how they can handle their 400,000+ users that way.





Article 55163 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 20 Jun 1996 17:08:57 -0700
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 41
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NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:
>
>> >singlehandedly
>> 
>> I don't believe this is true. Posts "from Matt Giwer" have come from more
>> than one machine at once. They've got at least two Windows boxes, one
>> configured with a WinGate proxy server and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> (Matt Giwer)", the other a WinGate client and "From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com" 
>> [no GCOS name].
>
>Rich, for those of us who don't know what WinGate is, could you explain
>what this means?
>
>Is it logical to conclude that Giwer has a friend, or multiple friends,
>using his account?  Are the client and server necessarily on the same LAN,
>or could a client anywhere on the internet access his server?

The easiest tool for what he seems to be doing, and a likely suspect given
his son's job, is Adrien de Croy's WinGate, a proxy server for Windows
95/NT (some people improperly call it a router). Basically, it lets you
connect multiple computers to the Internet through one SLIP/PPP
connection.  See http://www.windows95.com/connect/lansing.html

Whether it's WinGate or not, I think it has to be multiple machines,
probably operated by more than one person. Either that, or he's going into
Agent Preferences after every other post to add and remove his name from
the From: line. It isn't multiple people logged on to multiple Netcom PPP
ports, because the NNTP-Posting-Host remains the same.

For confirmation, someone would need to do a port scan of his machine
while he's logged on. But that wouldn't be nice.

Sorry this is a bit garbled, but I've still got a lot of work to do... the
fact that he's posting simultaneously with the same software under
different From: lines should be suggestive enough for most people.

posted/emailed back.

-rich
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/


Article 55492 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:59:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>	These people are the real scum of the earth.
>
>	This thread in this newsgoup is merely one more attempt to get me
to
>stop posting.  
>
>	There is no truth to it.  They are merely presenting information
in a
>false light so as to make it appear that I am doing something improper.
>
>

I for one agree with Matt Giwer, and I am willing to defend him on this. 
The Friends of Nizkor, as far as I can determine,  will stop at nothing to
destroy those with whom they disagree.  Mr. Giwer's actions in retaliation
are completely justified.


Article 55503 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 20:33:01 -0700
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 49
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References: <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4qi8de$ah@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu

For the peanut gallery and archives:

Ehlich606, allegedly also known as ruthsommer@aol.com, is a pseudonym
denoting a treatment for syphilis (really). But he's been one of the most
reasonable and rational of the Hitler-wasn't-such-a-bad-guy crowd, and I
for one always appreciated his involvement in the group, so I'm a bit
disappointed that he's throwing his weight behind the GiwerTrolls, who
have never said or done anything remotely reasonable in their 20 years of
getting kicked off online service after online service for abuse.

Btw, I'm only killfiling posts From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com exactly, the a.r
spammer(s) that has failed the turing test rather horribly. Posts From:
mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) [note addition of "real name"], on the
other hand, are apparently actually written by Matt Giwer, and are
occasionally worth reading (to better understand the pathology).

I think this dispute is sufficiently political that it doesn't belong in
a content-netral net-abuse discussion anymore. Giwer needs a kind of help
that we cannot provide. He now knows all about the official spam
thresholds now, and I doubt he'll violate them.

OTOH, was "vertical spam" ever defined mathematically?

-rich
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/

ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>In article <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>
>>	These people are the real scum of the earth.
>>
>>	This thread in this newsgoup is merely one more attempt to get me
>to
>>stop posting.  
>>
>>	There is no truth to it.  They are merely presenting information
>in a
>>false light so as to make it appear that I am doing something improper.
>>
>>
>
>I for one agree with Matt Giwer, and I am willing to defend him on this. 
>The Friends of Nizkor, as far as I can determine,  will stop at nothing to
>destroy those with whom they disagree.  Mr. Giwer's actions in retaliation
>are completely justified.




Article 55590 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 23 Jun 1996 11:37:07 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4qk2sj$9fq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45557 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55590

In article <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>, 
mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    So now the posting volume has increased.  If that is your definition
>of "winning," then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago. 
>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.

Actually, this is not the first time we've seen this sort of
long-term, all out assault. As to the numbers, our present
troll is a piker, hardly worth our time.

Consider the fact that Dan Gannon, a man who now finds it more
comfortable - and perhaps more profitable - to offer his users
sexually explicit adult images than Holocaust denial, once
appeared on the UseNet "Top 50 Posters By Volume" on the
entire net. He was consistantly within the top 25 for month
after month. Unlike our present pretender, Mr. Gannon
sometimes spammed as many as 80+ newsgroups at a shot.

Mr. Giwer is a piker, and not even as smart - or as obnoxious
- as Dan Gannon, the master of abuse... a man second only to
the Argic 'bot.

>    But "discussion" of revision?  You have made an assertion about the
>amount of coke needed for cremation.  And several people have tried to sit
>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>hard numbers.  You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>getting down to calculations.  What kind of a discussion is that?  What
>kind of scientist is that? 

Be patient with Mr. Giwer. He has not yet learned those things
which Dan Gannon learned, but he is trying, even if weakly, to
emulate him. Matt Giwer, The Man Who Would Be King: not even a
ranking spammer. It's sad, really. Giwer can't even get net
abuse down pat.

Perhaps Gannon will tire of collecting gifs, and come out of
retirement to show this upstart what it takes to get the job
done.

-- 
Nizkor Canada - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


Article 55650 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: "Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" 
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Vertical spam definition? / Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:22:58 -0400
Organization: Boston College
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
Reply-To: fekete@bc.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: chi3.bc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <4qidtd$ia0@Networking.Stanford.EDU> 
X-Alternate-Addresses: fekete@c2.org magyar@world.std.com
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On 22 Jun 1996, Rich Graves wrote:
> OTOH, was "vertical spam" ever defined mathematically?

 I thought BI would apply, ie. 21 copies of essentially identical pieces 
in one group would be over the threshold just as it would be in separate 
groups.
 Of course the problem is defining 'essentially', but we have the same for
non-vertical spam too (I notice that Chris merely sidestepped the issue by
only saying "same" in his FAQ, but of course this is not quite what he
means ;-))... 

- --
 Zoli fekete@bc.edu, keeper of 
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Vertical spam definition? / Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 17:09:31 -0700
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 40
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

fekete@bc.edu writes:
>On 22 Jun 1996, Rich Graves wrote:
>> OTOH, was "vertical spam" ever defined mathematically?
>
> I thought BI would apply, ie. 21 copies of essentially identical pieces 
>in one group would be over the threshold just as it would be in separate 
>groups.
> Of course the problem is defining 'essentially', but we have the same for
>non-vertical spam too (I notice that Chris merely sidestepped the issue by
>only saying "same" in his FAQ, but of course this is not quite what he
>means ;-))... 

How about 451 postings in a week consisting of the full text of previous
articles in the group, 1-10 lines of "original content" that occasionally
has something to do with the quoted text, and one of ten "signatures" that
range from 10 to 300 lines? 

The problem is that you usually have to skip through 100 lines of unedited
quoted text to determine what the Giwertroller(s) are posting. One article
in twenty is at least somewhat substantive and should not be canceled. 

To date, nobody has done anything. The Giwertroller(s) are only about 1/2
as prolific as the CoS spambot, and discussion is continuing regardless. 
We've just had to educate a lot of people about killfiles, that's all. The
Giwertroller(s) are doing an excellent job of discrediting themselves, and
this is, after all, a highly sensitive political issue where bogus charges
of "ZOG censorship" are constantly heard.

- -rich
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/

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Article 55910 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:01:20 EDT
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4qno0k$iac@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <4ql78q$fqv@panix3.panix.com>, sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
said:

>
>In article <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:

>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>Since I find it impossible to believe that they copy you on their email,
>you're claiming to have read other people's email without their
>permission.  That's a felony in the US.

>Or are you just lying (as usual)?

He's just lying as usual.


--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                       


Article 45938 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:55:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4qpgcn$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.
>>
>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."
>>
>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.
>>
>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.
>>
>>>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>>>complain to me.  
>>
>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.
>>
>>    There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to
>>plan how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the
>>Nizkor gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day,
>>the posts have been confirmed.

>    Except that I have elsewhere been named as one of the "Gang of Six," 
>yet my approach has not changed.  It appears we have a very unreliable
>eyewitness once again. 


>>	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  

>    Then Matt Giwer must now admit it was reasonable and acceptable to
>call him an Nazi and antisemite.  For a good many of the revisionist crowd
>are antisemites and neo-Nazi types.  He was just tarred with the same
>brush. 

	Then you have no gripe, do you?  All you have to do now is support your
claim about the "revisionist" crowd.  

	Of course all that you have to point to are the self-avowed nazi types
and then to claim the reverse is true in an amazing exercise of a known
fallacy.  



Article 45962 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:42:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4qq16o$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31ce55a6.50636911@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qmv1d$bu0@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cf8d4b.58604310@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qo724$ik1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31D05270.13D0@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25  5:45:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45962 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55945

Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>         Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
>> with the conspirators.
>> 
>>         It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
>> himself with the conspirators.

>So what does that say about you, who is associated by his position 
>with liars, frauds, criminals, and other assorted lowlife?

	This is not about the Clintons.  I have no such associations.  Or has
someone been spreading that rumor behind my back?  





Article 45964 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 03:50:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qit0b$85q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccbba4.219848@news.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <31ccbba4.219848@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
writes:

>>
>>It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
>>they pretend to hate.
>
>I see, Alan. You have decided to come out into your true colors. I
>thought as much. What happened to your martyred exit. didn't work for
>you, eh?
>
>
Thank you for proving my point.  I know you better, now.


Article 46003 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:52:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvtg$rt3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.
>
>

Sniff, sniff.  And I thought you were above such juvenilia as refusing to
read Giwer's posts, and then posting it no less.  That reminds me of
people who call up radio talk shows and announce that they aren't going to
listen anymore.  Huh?

The fact is I foolishly believed the tone could be changed here. I was
wrong.  If I do not respond in kind to personal attacks, I acquire the
negative energy of the attacker.  Not good.  And I will respond to _your_
post when I have it posted.  To the extent that I am able, I should add,
because unlike others I make no claim to technological expertise.  Nor do
I make claims to final answers.


Article 46004 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:56:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4qp5n9$ebv@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>> Mike Stein wrote:
[snip]
>>>>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>>
>>>>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>>
>>>>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>>>>problem, not mine.
>>>
>>>	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>>You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
>>>declaration of victory.  
>
>>    It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat.  Contrary to
>>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>>yes, there was some - but you provide your share).  They were presented
>>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).
>
>>    Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate.  That game was
>>agreed to.  Debate is a game with well-understood rules.  One of them is,
>>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.
>
>>    Who agreed to play your game?  That is a relevant distinction.
>
> Debate was not the method here.  Personal and family harrassment was the
>name of the method here.  

    Please post your evidence that any of the other people who left were
victims of personal and family harrassment.


>	In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.  

    Of course you dishonestly insinuate all are complicit in the actions
of one or two.  Who besides Marduk emailed your son?  By your standard you
are complicit in the mailbombing directed against Ken McVay before you
ever appeared here.  It was someone who agreed with you, ergo by your
standards I am entitled to call that the "revisionist" method of debate,
not just the methods of the one perpetrator. 

    I am prepared to debate you.  But you would have to start providing
evidence and meeting the burden of proof for your claims.  You seem to
have some trouble with that.  Would you care to finally produce your
calculations for the number of calories needed to deal with the water in a
corpse for cremation?  Or show how you arrived at the 30,000 kcal figure
you gave without any mention of the assumptions or formula used?

    (Cue up the theme music from "Jeopardy....")
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 46011 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:42:52 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <31d06900.17239925@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: async7-2.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:03:53 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

[snip]

>Mr. Raven, your "simple questions" have certainly been addressed. However,
>that you seem to think otherwise, considering that you seem to have a
>nebulous "standard" of "proof," is hardly suprising! Perhaps if you'd be
>so kind to establish an _explicit_ criteria as to what establishes "proof"
>such "confusion"  can be avoided in the future? Or would that be a bit too
>restricting on your ability to dissimulate, obfuscate, and evade such
>issues? 

Oh come now, Mr. Van Alstine. Mr. Raven has stated many times what he
would consider to be proof of the existence of gas chambers: a picture
of a gas chamber. What is missing from Mr. Raven's definition of proof
is the means by which we would be able to tell that a picture was
indeed a picture of a gas chamber.

I would have thought that the memo from Bischoff that describes one of
two cellars in Krema II as a "gassing cellar" which will be used in
place of the morgue (the other cellar) until the concrete in the
morgue cieling dries AND a memo on the same day from Topf saying that
the cieling of number 2 morgue is not yet dry would be proof enough
for anyone that cellar number 1 was a "gassing cellar." These memos
coupled with the numerous statements of the people who actually
carried out the gassing ought to be more than enough to show that a
picture of the gassing cellar was a gas chamber. But, according, to
Mr. Raven, correlation of various data is simply not part of the
historical method.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 46034 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:26:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qiv2s$8q9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>, jhahn@crl.com (John Hahn)
writes:

>>
>What planet are you from? (I assume that's ' ... of the foolishness
>..'
>
>	A lurker
>
>
>
>

Thank you for the grammar correction. OTOH, if _you_ believed all that
stuff you are not only atypical you are not even of this galaxy. 


Article 46073 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 21-23: 27% / 34.9%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Date: 26 Jun 1996 05:09:24 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <4qr99k$73l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
X-Nizkor-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

   "...we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
    revisionism.  That is, make it useless to the hijackers."
                                      - Matt Giwer, June 21, 1996

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly taken over alt.revisionism.  With trolls,
with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word
responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point,
he has buried the signal under an avalanche of noise.

Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront "revisionist"
claims.  Giwer's aim is to make that impossible.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and thus his success in monopolizing the group.

Here are the statistics for June 21st through 23rd:

  Total number of articles posted: 708

         Articles from Matt Giwer: 191 (27%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 247 (34.9%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 63.7
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 82.3

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
from Giwer;  each "m" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

Jun 23: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 22: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 21: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

Jun 20: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 19: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 18: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 17: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 16: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmm
Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl



Article 46003 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:52:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvtg$rt3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.
>
>

Sniff, sniff.  And I thought you were above such juvenilia as refusing to
read Giwer's posts, and then posting it no less.  That reminds me of
people who call up radio talk shows and announce that they aren't going to
listen anymore.  Huh?

The fact is I foolishly believed the tone could be changed here. I was
wrong.  If I do not respond in kind to personal attacks, I acquire the
negative energy of the attacker.  Not good.  And I will respond to _your_
post when I have it posted.  To the extent that I am able, I should add,
because unlike others I make no claim to technological expertise.  Nor do
I make claims to final answers.


Article 46004 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:56:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4qp5n9$ebv@access5.digex.net>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4qjjft$r1f@access1.digex.net> <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>> Mike Stein wrote:
[snip]
>>>>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>>
>>>>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>>
>>>>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>>>>problem, not mine.
>>>
>>>	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>>You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
>>>declaration of victory.  
>
>>    It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat.  Contrary to
>>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>>yes, there was some - but you provide your share).  They were presented
>>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).
>
>>    Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate.  That game was
>>agreed to.  Debate is a game with well-understood rules.  One of them is,
>>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.
>
>>    Who agreed to play your game?  That is a relevant distinction.
>
> Debate was not the method here.  Personal and family harrassment was the
>name of the method here.  

    Please post your evidence that any of the other people who left were
victims of personal and family harrassment.


>	In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.  

    Of course you dishonestly insinuate all are complicit in the actions
of one or two.  Who besides Marduk emailed your son?  By your standard you
are complicit in the mailbombing directed against Ken McVay before you
ever appeared here.  It was someone who agreed with you, ergo by your
standards I am entitled to call that the "revisionist" method of debate,
not just the methods of the one perpetrator. 

    I am prepared to debate you.  But you would have to start providing
evidence and meeting the burden of proof for your claims.  You seem to
have some trouble with that.  Would you care to finally produce your
calculations for the number of calories needed to deal with the water in a
corpse for cremation?  Or show how you arrived at the 30,000 kcal figure
you gave without any mention of the assumptions or formula used?

    (Cue up the theme music from "Jeopardy....")
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 46011 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:42:52 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <31d06900.17239925@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:03:53 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

[snip]

>Mr. Raven, your "simple questions" have certainly been addressed. However,
>that you seem to think otherwise, considering that you seem to have a
>nebulous "standard" of "proof," is hardly suprising! Perhaps if you'd be
>so kind to establish an _explicit_ criteria as to what establishes "proof"
>such "confusion"  can be avoided in the future? Or would that be a bit too
>restricting on your ability to dissimulate, obfuscate, and evade such
>issues? 

Oh come now, Mr. Van Alstine. Mr. Raven has stated many times what he
would consider to be proof of the existence of gas chambers: a picture
of a gas chamber. What is missing from Mr. Raven's definition of proof
is the means by which we would be able to tell that a picture was
indeed a picture of a gas chamber.

I would have thought that the memo from Bischoff that describes one of
two cellars in Krema II as a "gassing cellar" which will be used in
place of the morgue (the other cellar) until the concrete in the
morgue cieling dries AND a memo on the same day from Topf saying that
the cieling of number 2 morgue is not yet dry would be proof enough
for anyone that cellar number 1 was a "gassing cellar." These memos
coupled with the numerous statements of the people who actually
carried out the gassing ought to be more than enough to show that a
picture of the gassing cellar was a gas chamber. But, according, to
Mr. Raven, correlation of various data is simply not part of the
historical method.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 46034 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:26:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
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In article <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>, jhahn@crl.com (John Hahn)
writes:

>>
>What planet are you from? (I assume that's ' ... of the foolishness
>..'
>
>	A lurker
>
>
>
>

Thank you for the grammar correction. OTOH, if _you_ believed all that
stuff you are not only atypical you are not even of this galaxy. 


Article 46112 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:58:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <4qhuv7$mks@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>	Holohuggers are so firmly into thought control that they will do
>anything they can to try to silence those they disagree with.  
>
>

It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
they pretend to hate.


Article 46132 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:52:58 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>>>[snip]

>>>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."

>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

>>>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>>>complain to me.  

>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.

>>	There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to plan
>>how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the Nizkor
>>gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day, the
>>posts have been confirmed.

>>	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  

>In other words, you are accusing me personally of conspiring to
>prevent discussion on alt.revisionism 

>1) on the basis of inferences about the posts of other people
>2) about unspecified posting practices which I may or may
>   not have adopted
>3) and through guilt by association

>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>withdraw the allegation.

	Guilt by association will go just fine.  





Article 46151 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:02:35 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>[snip]

>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."

>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>complain to me.  

Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca


Article 46159 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:28:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># The situation is that some years ago there was an organized
># effort by at least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order
># to prevent revisionism to be discussed.

>And outright lie from a pathological liar.

># They brag about having driven off everyone who tries to discuss 
>revisionism.

>Example?

	You must be blind.  

># They use any method open to them.  They start with simple verbal abuse
># which one has to expect in an alt conference.  But then it goes to
># harrassing people ISP, the person personally, and even their families.
># All of this happened in my case.

>I suggest you watch it, nazi-boy. You are making a strong accusation
>here. I certainly did not harass your family, neither your ISP. I
>pity your family, actually.

	I gave only the short list.  I left out the phone calls, the mail bombs
and a couple other things.  

># These people are the real scum of the earth.

>Now tell us more about Belsen camp which you claimed was in Poland,
>and about your claim that Zyklon does not release HCN in a temperature
>of 20 degrees.

	Holohuggers are still scum.  

>the future of "revisionism" depends on your reply.

	And remain scum.

>Get dem famous 163 IQ points you brag about to work and get some
>answers, quick.

	And will never be any better.  

>We also want to hear more about your claim that the mention of "gas
>chamber" and "gassing cellar" in SS documents is due to a "morbid
>sense of humor" of the people writing the documents.

>Explain this to us poor folks who don't have 163 IQ.

	You mean how I singlehandedly hijacked this conference?  Weren't you
taking notes?  





Article 46163 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:53:03 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov) writes:
>
>>
>>The point being, perhaps, that Mr. Thomas acknowledges that
>>"revisionists" choose to engage in "propagandizing of a base sort" -
>>as opposed to legitimate presentation of verifiable documentation to
>>support their "arguments".
>>
>>
>
>All of the supremely apt quotes that Giwer has posted have been
>verifiable, indeed, most of them have the imprimatur of Nuremberg on them,
>which is more than can be said for many of the others.

What others, Alan? What about white washing the Nazi leadership, Alan?
How about coming out of this stupid game your playing, Alan?\


He who laughs last thinks slowest.


Article 46178 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:26:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> >>         Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
>> >> with the conspirators.
>> >>
>> >>         It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
>> >> himself with the conspirators.
>> 
>> >So what does that say about you, who is associated by his position
>> >with liars, frauds, criminals, and other assorted lowlife?
>> 
>>         This is not about the Clintons.  I have no such associations.  Or has
>> someone been spreading that rumor behind my back?

>Let's see, you use the same language and hold the same position
>as the following group of luminaries:

>Ernst Zundel, censorship hypocrite and the author of a well-researched
>  document on Nazi UFOs from the South Pole.

>David Irving, convicted of libel.

>George Burdi, assault.

>Tom Metzger, convicted of inciting a murder.

>Tom Moran, proven liar.

>Need I continue?  Remember, "guilt by association is just fine".
>You said it.

	The above connections being first made by holohuggers are where I got
the idea that guilt by association was acceptable in this NG.  Do you
have some problem with it being used about holohuggers?  

>Oh, I assume that this means that *all* Germans were responsible
>for crimes committed by Nazis in WW2?  Guilt by association, no?

	That is a popular wisdom on the holohuggers.  
	





Article 46203 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:57:43 EDT
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4qh5aa$4agk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Reply-To: gmcfee@ibm.net
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X-Newsreader: MR/2 Classic v2.26 - An OS/2 QWK reader

In article <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
said:

>
>Ah, statistics!

>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
>over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

The point being?


--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                                                                


Article 46217 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:38:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <4qpis2$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>  wrote:
>>>> Mike Stein wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>>>
>>>>>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>>>
>>>>>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>>>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>>>>>problem, not mine.
>>>>
>>>>	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>>>You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
>>>>declaration of victory.  
>>
>>>    It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat.  Contrary to
>>>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>>>yes, there was some - but you provide your share).  They were presented
>>>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>>>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>>>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).
>>
>>>    Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate.  That game was
>>>agreed to.  Debate is a game with well-understood rules.  One of them is,
>>>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.
>>
>>>    Who agreed to play your game?  That is a relevant distinction.
>>
>> Debate was not the method here.  Personal and family harrassment was the
>>name of the method here.  

>    Please post your evidence that any of the other people who left were
>victims of personal and family harrassment.


>>	In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.  

>    Of course you dishonestly insinuate all are complicit in the actions
>of one or two.  Who besides Marduk emailed your son?  By your standard you
>are complicit in the mailbombing directed against Ken McVay before you
>ever appeared here.  It was someone who agreed with you, ergo by your
>standards I am entitled to call that the "revisionist" method of debate,
>not just the methods of the one perpetrator. 

	In case you folks have missed it, it would be a trivial matter to shut
down Nizkor.  

	Beyond that, the only thing I read from the Nizkor types on the matter
were "denials" and "couldn't happen to a nicer guy" kind of comments.
But you know that.  So the Nizkorites were publically approving to the
point of encouraging that clown who idirect told combase, had root
access at idirect.  

	So have no complicity in any mailbombing of McVay as I neither condoned
more encouraged the person who did it.  You holohuggers did both.  That
makes you folks complicite.  

>    I am prepared to debate you.  But you would have to start providing
>evidence and meeting the burden of proof for your claims.  You seem to
>have some trouble with that.  Would you care to finally produce your
>calculations for the number of calories needed to deal with the water in a
>corpse for cremation?  Or show how you arrived at the 30,000 kcal figure
>you gave without any mention of the assumptions or formula used?

	I made no claim of 30,000 kcal, but you know that.  Obviously you are
not prepared to debate honestly as yet.  





Article 46218 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:10:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 120
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46218 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56142

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31cf8d4b.58604310@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) said:

>>
>>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>[snip]

>>>>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>>>>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>>>>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>>>>withdraw the allegation.

>>>	Guilt by association will go just fine.  

>>I asked three times for evidence of his allegations; three times Mr. Giwer
>>failed to produce it.

>>Well, this is as close as anyone ever gets to getting an admission from
>>Mr. Giwer that his allegations are groundless, so I guess I'll just have
>>to be satisified.

>Be satisfied that in your most terrified moment, you are not half as afraid
>as Giwer in his most courageous.


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	id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee 
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer 
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03 

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you.  There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I.  Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick.  Ergo, this message.  If you don't want to
correspond with me, a simple "fuck off McFee" bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months.  And
something
doesn't add up.  I have difficulty believing you are really a
"revisionist",
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent.  Most
"revisionists" are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not.  What
you do
seem to like to do is argue.  Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out.  And you do this well.  Your
techniques are very effective.  You know how to push buttons.  If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that's what you do.  If insult will elicit a response, you
insult. 
If obscenity, you swear.  If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in.  And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator.  You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan.  You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant.  In other words, you troll.  You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them.  Put another way, it's all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune.  No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair.  You played me like a trout during that
one.  Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone.  You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would "push my buttons" and you were right.

So, is that it?  Is that what makes you tick?


--
Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net)
I'll write no line before its time







Article 46258 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:39:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4ql9q8$pn8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 12:41:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Michael P. Stein wrote:

>> >       I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
>> >be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
>> >The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
>> >using as sigs.
>> 
>>     I note that Mr. Giwer has used these alleged sigs in followups to
>> articles which could not in any way be called attacks on him.

>Mr Giwer apparently defines the word "attack" to indicate those
>posts that prove him wrong.  For example,

>http://xp3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10860794&server=dnserver.dbapr&CONTEXT=835574075.22908&hitnum=3

>I suppose one could label this sort of thing an attack as it
>demonstrates the fact that Mr Giwer tends to make statements
>that he cannot support.

	My tagline, my choice.

	Do you have a problem with that?




Article 46318 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:57:23 GMT
Organization: Adhesive Media, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31cdb719.355806@news.eden.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: net-6-172.austin.eden.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227

ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <31ccbba4.219848@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
>writes:
>
>>>
>>>It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
>>>they pretend to hate.
>>
>>I see, Alan. You have decided to come out into your true colors. I
>>thought as much. What happened to your martyred exit. didn't work for
>>you, eh?
>>
>>
>Thank you for proving my point.  I know you better, now.

HeHe. You don't know me at all. 



He who laughs last thinks slowest.


Article 46342 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 17-18: 32.1% / 37.4%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Date: 25 Jun 1996 00:32:19 GMT
Organization: Large
Lines: 35
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <4qnc2j$7hd@shiva.usa.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:82 alt.revisionism:46342

In article <4qghbv$goh@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

	You folks called me an anti-semite and a nazi without cause.

Mr. Giwer resorts to the vilest insults and name calling whenever he
is exposed as a liar and a fraud.  In his mind, a little name calling
is not enough "cause" to turn the tables and start calling him names.

Also note the phrase, "you folks..."  It is Mr. Giwer's way of
assigning guilt by association.  In fact, Mr. Giwer has done his best
to insult me with vile names when I never have called him a Nazi
or anti-Semite.


	You harrassed my service provider.  You harrassed my family.
	You did anything you could to silence me.

Mr. Giwer cannot prove that anyone did any of these things to him,
much less everyone that disagrees with him.  Mr. Giwer greatly
overestimates his importance to those who expose his lies.


	Consider it righteous Jewish revenge.  

Consider that many Jews have not done anything to Mr. Giwer, whereas
many non-Jews have certainly called him on his lies.  It becomes
obvious that this statement is exactly the kind that a Nazi or an
anti-Semite would make.

--
Harry Katz

Hospitality is as important as divine worship.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


Article 46363 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:50:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4qibig$sm3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qh5aa$4agk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22  9:53:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4qh5aa$4agk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>wrote:

>>In article <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>>said:

>>>
>>>Ah, statistics!

>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.

>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike "revisionist" quotes,
>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>are intended to be.  Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>discussion.

	Perhaps fat broad has not gotten the word to stop implying that this is
a holocaust conferce and should cease implying that only holohuggers
consititute the conference.  

	But to refresh your fat little head, mindless repetition of any thing is
unappreciated by the people who are here to talk revisionism as is the
purpose of this conference.  

>>>Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
>>>over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>>>default.  (Graber made me do it!!)

>>The point being?

>The point being, perhaps, that Mr. Thomas acknowledges that
>"revisionists" choose to engage in "propagandizing of a base sort" -
>as opposed to legitimate presentation of verifiable documentation to
>support their "arguments".

	And mindless repetition, i.e. telling the big lie loud enough and often
enough, is not propaganda to the holohuggers even though it is off
topic.





Article 46375 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 22:05:49 GMT
Organization: InFoText Manuscripts
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <835481149snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
Reply-To: A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: abaron.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30
X-Mail2News-Path: abaron.demon.co.uk

In article <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
           mstein@access5.digex.net "Michael P. Stein" writes:
>     Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
> posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
> Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
> given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
> J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

Much as Al Baron would like to spend hours a day replying to the twaddle in this
newsgroup he has other, more important things to do. Although I don't comment
so much now I often find important leads here for research. From both sides.

-- 
Alexander Baron


Article 46397 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 15:09:05 -0700
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 16
Sender: llurch@Networking.Stanford.EDU
Message-ID: <4qkfa1$l4k@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qik5i$f8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu

schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes:
>Prince Myshkin wrote:
>
>: 	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>: people follow your suggestion. 
>
>What a card this Myshkin guy is.  As it happens, other revisionist types
>(most notably Milton Kleim) have made this sort of claim before, and 

Note that Milton kleim has departed, calling his former skinhead
colleagues a bunch of morons. Myshkin's commitment to the case of
stupidity is extraordinary. Not quite up to the level of a Gannon or a
H*ber, but extraordinary nonetheless. 

-rich
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/


Article 56226 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Vertical spam definition? / Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9:
 12.7% / 18.3%
Message-ID: 
From: grabiner@sunset.ma.huji.ac.il (David Joseph Grabiner)
Date: 27 Jun 1996 21:13:46 +0300
Sender: grabiner@sunset.ma.huji.ac.il
References: <4qidtd$ia0@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunset.ma.huji.ac.il
In-reply-to: "Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq"'s message of Sun, 23
 Jun	1996 17:22:58 -0400
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1
Lines: 24

In article , "Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> On 22 Jun 1996, Rich Graves wrote:
>> OTOH, was "vertical spam" ever defined mathematically?

>  I thought BI would apply, ie. 21 copies of essentially identical pieces 
> in one group would be over the threshold just as it would be in separate 
> groups.

The only reason for the name is for discussion purposes; vertical spam
is likely to be a problem in a particular group, often either a
deliberate attempt to flood or software in an infinite loop.  But
whether spam is vertical, horizontal, or rectangular (five identical
articles in eacch of five different groups), it should be dealt with
appropriately.



-- 
David Grabiner, grabiner@math.huji.ac.il, http://www.ma.huji.ac.il/~grabiner
I speak at the Hebrew University, but not for it.
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.


Article 46441 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net> <835481149snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:55:04 GMT
Lines: 21

ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

Greg Raven, who admires Hitler and writes that he was a "great
man", and "the best thing that could have happened to Germany",
says:

# Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas
# chamber when I wasn't looking?

There's a new game now. You have to prove that Dresden was
bombed, or that WW2 happened. And we are allowed to use
"revisionist" type arguments used to question the gas chambers,
to question your proofs.

Go ahead.


-Danny Keren.





Article 46454 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 24-25: 22.7% / 29.9%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:08:06 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4r0hv6$667@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
X-Nizkor-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
X-Giwer-URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

   "...we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
    revisionism.  That is, make it useless to the hijackers."
                                      - Matt Giwer, June 21, 1996

Matt Giwer has singlehandedly taken over alt.revisionism.  With trolls,
with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word
responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point,
he has buried the signal under an avalanche of noise.

Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront "revisionist"
claims.  Giwer's aim is to make that impossible.

This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
and thus his success in monopolizing the group.

Here are the statistics for June 24th and 25th:

  Total number of articles posted: 331

         Articles from Matt Giwer: 75 (22.7%)
        Articles mentioning Giwer: 99 (29.9%)

      Articles per day from Giwer: 37.5
Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 49.5

Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
mentioning Giwer for these days.  Each "F" represents one article
from Giwer;  each "m" represents one additional article with the
string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

Jun 25: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmm
Jun 24: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

Jun 23: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 22: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 21: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 20: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 19: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 18: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jun 17: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

The Net Abuse FAQ:
http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
http://www.cm.org/

alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
Jamie McCarthy;  feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
them to jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca.  It posts three times a week.
Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl



Article 46492 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:59:15 -0300
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <31CDDA53.72D2@unb.ca>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qcru6$cq3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4qk1lg$37q@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4c)

Michael P. Stein wrote:

> >       I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
> >be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
> >The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
> >using as sigs.
> 
>     I note that Mr. Giwer has used these alleged sigs in followups to
> articles which could not in any way be called attacks on him.

Mr Giwer apparently defines the word "attack" to indicate those
posts that prove him wrong.  For example,

http://xp3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10860794&server=dnserver.dbapr&CONTEXT=835574075.22908&hitnum=3

I suppose one could label this sort of thing an attack as it
demonstrates the fact that Mr Giwer tends to make statements
that he cannot support.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca

I *love* DejaNews.  Makes life more interesting, no?


Article 46502 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 27 Jun 1996 01:36:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <4qt6kf$ft5@access1.digex.net>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4qp7ia$fn8@access5.digex.net> <4qpgcn$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qpgcn$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.
>>>
>>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."
>>>
>>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.
>>>
>>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.
>>>
>>>>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>>>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>>>>complain to me.  
>>>
>>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.
>>>
>>>    There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to
>>>plan how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the
>>>Nizkor gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day,
>>>the posts have been confirmed.
>
>>    Except that I have elsewhere been named as one of the "Gang of Six," 
>>yet my approach has not changed.  It appears we have a very unreliable
>>eyewitness once again. 
>
>
>>>	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>>brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  
>
>>    Then Matt Giwer must now admit it was reasonable and acceptable to
>>call him an Nazi and antisemite.  For a good many of the revisionist crowd
>>are antisemites and neo-Nazi types.  He was just tarred with the same
>>brush. 
>
>	Then you have no gripe, do you?

    I have not used that brush.


>All you have to do now is support your
>claim about the "revisionist" crowd.  

    Milton Kleim, Jr. will tell you himself that he is a National
Socialist.

    Friedrich Berg, when he graced us with his presence, spoke of "filthy
Talmudic logic" and all the Jews in Poland, spottable by the fact that
they were ugly and they answered questions with questions.

    Michael Hoffman II gave the standard dishonestly edited and distorted
list of out-of-context quotes from the Talmud.  He said Paul Shrader, the
screenwriter for "The Last Temptation of Christ" (which Hoffman considered
anti-Christian) was Jewish (Shrader is not).

    There is a start.  And they all posted here.

    But I have not used the broad brush.  I have never claimed that they
were all in that category.  Quite the opposite.


>	Of course all that you have to point to are the self-avowed nazi types
>and then to claim the reverse is true in an amazing exercise of a known
>fallacy. 

    I have not exercised the fallacy, however.  You are cordially invited
to document any occasion where I have asserted guilt by association,
either against you or any other person.  I am quite confident that you
cannot.  Yet you have done it to me.  You exercised the fallacy, not I.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 46504 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:32:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <4qta3g$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net> <4qk2sj$9fq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qt0pp$4hsi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  1:35:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46504 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56366

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qk2sj$9fq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>>Actually, this is not the first time we've seen this sort of
>>long-term, all out assault. As to the numbers, our present
>>troll is a piker, hardly worth our time.

>Perhaps "pike" would be a better word?  :-)

>>Consider the fact that Dan Gannon, a man who now finds it more comfortable
>>- and perhaps more profitable - to offer his users sexually explicit adult
>>images than Holocaust denial, once
>>appeared on the UseNet "Top 50 Posters By Volume" on the
>>entire net. He was consistantly within the top 25 for month
>>after month. Unlike our present pretender, Mr. Gannon
>>sometimes spammed as many as 80+ newsgroups at a shot.

>Now Mr. McVay, don't reveal to Mr. Giwer how badly he trolls.  And how badly
>he spams.  Hell, he'll probably start spamming the whole Usenet.


>>Be patient with Mr. Giwer. He has not yet learned those things which Dan
>>Gannon learned, but he is trying, even if weakly, to emulate him. Matt
>>Giwer, The Man Who Would Be King: not even a ranking spammer. It's sad,
>>really. Giwer can't even get net abuse down pat.

>A third-rate spammer, not worthy to be even mentioned in the same breath
>with Gannon.


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	id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee 
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer 
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03 

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you.  There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I.  Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick.  Ergo, this message.  If you don't want to
correspond with me, a simple "fuck off McFee" bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months.  And
something
doesn't add up.  I have difficulty believing you are really a
"revisionist",
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent.  Most
"revisionists" are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not.  What
you do
seem to like to do is argue.  Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out.  And you do this well.  Your
techniques are very effective.  You know how to push buttons.  If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that's what you do.  If insult will elicit a response, you
insult. 
If obscenity, you swear.  If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in.  And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator.  You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan.  You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant.  In other words, you troll.  You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them.  Put another way, it's all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune.  No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair.  You played me like a trout during that
one.  Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone.  You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would "push my buttons" and you were right.

So, is that it?  Is that what makes you tick?


--
Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net)
I'll write no line before its time







Article 46507 of alt.revisionism:
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 27 Jun 1996 03:03:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <4qtbo8$gu6@access1.digex.net>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4qp5n9$ebv@access5.digex.net> <4qpis2$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qpis2$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qkkk0$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4qj4ug$9g@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> Mike Stein wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>>>>    The were not driven out by namecalling.  Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>>>>
>>>>>>    They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>>>>
>>>>>>    The only difference between you and them is, you don't seem to mind be
>>>>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie.  That is your
>>>>>>problem, not mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>	Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>>>>You folks declared victory.  You are now repeating the one sided
>>>>>declaration of victory.  
>>>
>>>>    It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat.  Contrary to
>>>>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>>>>yes, there was some - but you provide your share).  They were presented
>>>>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>>>>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>>>>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).
>>>
>>>>    Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate.  That game was
>>>>agreed to.  Debate is a game with well-understood rules.  One of them is,
>>>>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.
>>>
>>>>    Who agreed to play your game?  That is a relevant distinction.
>>>
>>> Debate was not the method here.  Personal and family harrassment was the
>>>name of the method here.  
>
>>    Please post your evidence that any of the other people who left were
>>victims of personal and family harrassment.
>
>
>>>	In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.  
>
>>    Of course you dishonestly insinuate all are complicit in the actions
>>of one or two.  Who besides Marduk emailed your son?  By your standard you
>>are complicit in the mailbombing directed against Ken McVay before you
>>ever appeared here.  It was someone who agreed with you, ergo by your
>>standards I am entitled to call that the "revisionist" method of debate,
>>not just the methods of the one perpetrator. 
>
>	In case you folks have missed it, it would be a trivial matter to shut
>down Nizkor.  
>
>	Beyond that, the only thing I read from the Nizkor types on the matter
>were "denials" and "couldn't happen to a nicer guy" kind of comments.
>But you know that.  So the Nizkorites were publically approving to the
>point of encouraging that clown who idirect told combase, had root
>access at idirect.  
>
>	So have no complicity in any mailbombing of McVay as I neither condoned
>more encouraged the person who did it.  You holohuggers did both.  That
>makes you folks complicite.  
>
>>    I am prepared to debate you.  But you would have to start providing
>>evidence and meeting the burden of proof for your claims.  You seem to
>>have some trouble with that.  Would you care to finally produce your
>>calculations for the number of calories needed to deal with the water in a
>>corpse for cremation?  Or show how you arrived at the 30,000 kcal figure
>>you gave without any mention of the assumptions or formula used?
>
>	I made no claim of 30,000 kcal, but you know that.  Obviously you are
>not prepared to debate honestly as yet.  

    Obviously you are prepared to lie and deceive.  DejaNews has a long
memory.


   Linkname: Deja News Retrieved Document
        URL:
          http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c4pvr85$t4r@dfw-ixne
          ws8.ix.netcom.com%3e&server=dnserver.dbapr
          
Subject:      Re: Dresden?
From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date:         1996/06/16
Message-Id:   <4pvr85$t4r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References:    <4ppguv$ibm@newsbf02.n
ews.aol.com> <4pq95k$slh@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> <4psh8e$9im@dfw-Ixnews8.ix.netcom
.com> 
Organization: images incarnate
X-Netcom-Date: Sat Jun 15  9:24:05 PM CDT 1996
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4psh8e$9im@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:


[much deleted - refer to the URL above to see the full text - mstein]

>> You are the one supporting 2 kg of coke for each body after the first.

>According the Walter Mu"ller, of the engineering firm Allach, in regards
>to the fuel consumption of incineration furnaces:

>"Mu"ller claimed that there was a direct relation between increased use
>and increased economy. If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of
>coke to start up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg. if it had been
>used the day before; a second and third incineration on the same day would
>not require any extra fuel thanks to the compressed air; and those that
>followed would call for only small amounts of extra energy..." (_Anatomy_,
>pp.185-186.)

>How small is "amounts of extra energy?" Two kg of coke's worth?

        As you will need on the order of 30,000 kcal you are not going to get
that out of 2 kg of coke.  That is only a ballpark on boiling out the
water while maintaining the same temperature.


[end excerpt]

    Perhaps you would like to explain how you reconcile your denial with
the above text.  You threw out the line "30,000 kcal" as a "ballpark" on
"boiling out the water."  There certainly seems by any ordinarly reading
of the text to be some association between "30,000 kcal" and boiling out
the water in a corpse (of unspecified weight).  Or did you mean the pot of
water the SS men were using to boil their wienerschnitzel?

    Now perhaps you could add just a leetle scientific precision to your
work.  Remember, your claim, your burden of proof.  You have failed to
meet it.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 46512 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:21:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <4qtcuv$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4qp7ia$fn8@access5.digex.net> <4qpgcn$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4qt6kf$ft5@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  2:24:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qpgcn$no1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>  wrote:
>>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."
>>>>
>>>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.
>>>>
>>>>>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>>>>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>>>>>complain to me.  
>>>>
>>>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.
>>>>
>>>>    There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to
>>>>plan how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the
>>>>Nizkor gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day,
>>>>the posts have been confirmed.
>>
>>>    Except that I have elsewhere been named as one of the "Gang of Six," 
>>>yet my approach has not changed.  It appears we have a very unreliable
>>>eyewitness once again. 
>>
>>
>>>>	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>>>brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  
>>
>>>    Then Matt Giwer must now admit it was reasonable and acceptable to
>>>call him an Nazi and antisemite.  For a good many of the revisionist crowd
>>>are antisemites and neo-Nazi types.  He was just tarred with the same
>>>brush. 
>>
>>	Then you have no gripe, do you?

>    I have not used that brush.

	Are you unaware of what you are posting?  

>>All you have to do now is support your
>>claim about the "revisionist" crowd.  

>    Milton Kleim, Jr. will tell you himself that he is a National
>Socialist.

	Why would I care about a defunct political group in another country?  

	If you have ever read my website you know what I think of government in
general much less that type.  

>    Friedrich Berg, when he graced us with his presence, spoke of "filthy
>Talmudic logic" and all the Jews in Poland, spottable by the fact that
>they were ugly and they answered questions with questions.

	I have no idea of that but it sounds more like they were all lawyers.  

>    Michael Hoffman II gave the standard dishonestly edited and distorted
>list of out-of-context quotes from the Talmud.  He said Paul Shrader, the
>screenwriter for "The Last Temptation of Christ" (which Hoffman considered
>anti-Christian) was Jewish (Shrader is not).

	Good sir, I will consider Hollywood honest when there is equal treatment
of Yeshua and Moses and not before.  The only difference is that there
is a slightly greater chance that Yeshua existed than Moses.  

>    There is a start.  And they all posted here.

	That is your problem, not mine.  

>    But I have not used the broad brush.  I have never claimed that they
>were all in that category.  Quite the opposite.

	You are a holohugger.  Sorry about that.  

>>	Of course all that you have to point to are the self-avowed nazi types
>>and then to claim the reverse is true in an amazing exercise of a known
>>fallacy. 

>    I have not exercised the fallacy, however.  You are cordially invited
>to document any occasion where I have asserted guilt by association,
>either against you or any other person.  I am quite confident that you
>cannot.  Yet you have done it to me.  You exercised the fallacy, not I.

	You are playing a very old game.  You pass the duck test for being a
duck but you have avoided specific statements.  I have seen it done for
over 15 years now.  

	Why do you think you invented this technique?  




Article 46522 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:51:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4qll3t$e8c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net> <835481149snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  3:54:21 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>> In article <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
>>            mstein@access5.digex.net "Michael P. Stein" writes:
>> >     Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
>> > posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>> > Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
>> > given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>> > J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

>My claims were addressed? This is news to me. I have repeatedly posted a
>couple of simple questions to this newsgroup, and virtually all the
>responses were personal attacks and long digressions on matters almost
>totally unrelated to my question. The one or two "substantive" responses
>were laughably silly.

>Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas chamber when I
>wasn't looking?

	I saw very clear posts that there is not one connection between the LK
and the testimony.  But then, your mileage may vary.  
	



Article 46538 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:40:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46538 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56399

sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:

>In article <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:

>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>Since I find it impossible to believe that they copy you on their
>email, you're claiming to have read other people's email without their
>permission.  That's a felony in the US.

	It is not a felony in the US or any place in the world that I am aware
of.  

>Or are you just lying (as usual)?

	Is that the best you can do?  

	They have publically posted about the discussions.  
	
	Read the damned NG is you want to know what is going on.






Article 46550 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 24 Jun 1996 00:38:26 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4qlgli$8rr@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>writes:
>
>>
>>>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>>>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.
>>
>>
>
>Sniff, sniff.  And I thought you were above such juvenilia as refusing to
>read Giwer's posts, and then posting it no less.  That reminds me of
>people who call up radio talk shows and announce that they aren't going to
>listen anymore.  Huh?

I have Mr. Giwer kill-filed because he has demonstrated a lack of integrity.
I am not interested in his position, but I am interested in Mr.
Ehrlich's.  Mr. Ehrlich seems to be claiming that there is some
substance to Mr. Giwer's claims.  If that is his claim, I would like to
see him discuss the issues substantively.  Mr. Giwer has proven himself
unable to do so, but I am sure that Mr. Ehrlich is capable of a higher
level of discussion.
>
>The fact is I foolishly believed the tone could be changed here. I was
>wrong.  If I do not respond in kind to personal attacks, I acquire the
>negative energy of the attacker.  Not good.  And I will respond to _your_
>post when I have it posted.  To the extent that I am able, I should add,
>because unlike others I make no claim to technological expertise.  Nor do
>I make claims to final answers.

If Mr. Ehrlich claims that there are technological or scientific problems with 
major parts of Holocaust history I sincerely hope he will discuss the
issues rather than personalities.

Regards,

Rich Green
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


Article 46562 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:30:41 EDT
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4qm4eu$1qji@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qik5i$f8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
Reply-To: gmcfee@ibm.net
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X-Newsreader: MR/2 Classic v2.26 - An OS/2 QWK reader

In article <4qik5i$f8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
(Richard Schultz) said:

>
>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: 	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if :
>people follow your suggestion. 

>What a card this Myshkin guy is.  As it happens, other revisionist types
>(most notably Milton Kleim) have made this sort of claim before, and this
>claim is invariably shown to be untrue.  The lurkers on this newsfroup
>almost certainly see you for what you are -- a pathetic liar with the
>inability to keep his own lies straight, let alone deal with the
>refutations of those lies.

More than that.  Now that I have him under my control, his days in this
newsgroup are numbered.


--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                                                                          


Article 46726 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:36:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4qmudq$bci@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q8dtd$3i7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qau2l$lmo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qik5i$f8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4qm4eu$1qji@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  3:39:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qik5i$f8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>(Richard Schultz) said:

>>
>>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>>: 	To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if :
>>people follow your suggestion. 

>>What a card this Myshkin guy is.  As it happens, other revisionist types
>>(most notably Milton Kleim) have made this sort of claim before, and this
>>claim is invariably shown to be untrue.  The lurkers on this newsfroup
>>almost certainly see you for what you are -- a pathetic liar with the
>>inability to keep his own lies straight, let alone deal with the
>>refutations of those lies.

>More than that.  Now that I have him under my control, his days in this
>newsgroup are numbered.


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet ... All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. "
IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	





Article 46732 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Alec Grynspan 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:18:20 -0400
Organization: Bell Northern Research
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <31CEF80C.2D3A@gryn.org>
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Michael P. Stein wrote:
> 
> 
>     If you don't count the lies, refusals to post documentation, etc.
> 
> >  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
> >*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
> >balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.
> 
>     Much of it is doubtful.  I want to go back and check the full context
> to see if some of it is not really testimony.  Carlos Porter pulled things

I kept telling you, and still do: MATT GIWER IS A TROLL.

Facts have nothing to do with the situation, intellectual integrity has
nothing to do with the situation, NADA!

Even his crowing about being a troll is a troll!!!

There is a way to nuke him, but not this way!


Article 46764 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 24 Jun 1996 09:21:38 -0700
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4qmfai$ahc@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz0.stanford.edu

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
>Greg Raven, who admires Hitler and writes that he was a "great
>man", and "the best thing that could have happened to Germany",
>says:
>
># Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas
># chamber when I wasn't looking?
>
>There's a new game now. You have to prove that Dresden was
>bombed, or that WW2 happened. And we are allowed to use
>"revisionist" type arguments used to question the gas chambers,
>to question your proofs.
>
>Go ahead.

But to answer Mr. Raven's question: Krema I at Auschwitz, although
reconstructed, was a gas chamber.  Kremas II-V at Birkenau were gas
chambers.

When Mr. Raven can tell us what he would consider evidence to support
these claims by proving that WWII happened, he will find plenty of
support for our claims.

Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
	"Remember the days of yore,
	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
		-Deuteronomy 32:7


Article 46806 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 19-20: 25.1% / 32.5%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:23:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4qnf7s$d36@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qm0ek$7gl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>   "...we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
>    revisionism.  That is, make it useless to the hijackers."
>                                      - Matt Giwer, June 21, 1996

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly taken over alt.revisionism.  With trolls,
>with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word
>responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point,
>he has buried the signal under an avalanche of noise.

>Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront "revisionist"
>claims.  Giwer's aim is to make that impossible.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
>and thus his success in monopolizing the group.

>Here are the statistics for June 19th and 20th:

>  Total number of articles posted: 495

>         Articles from Matt Giwer: 124 (25.1%)
>        Articles mentioning Giwer: 161 (32.5%)

	I missed a few.  Sorry about that.  I'll try to do better.  

>      Articles per day from Giwer: 62
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 80.5




Article 46828 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 17-18: 32.1% / 37.4%
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 24 Jun 1996 20:50:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4qnd55$9ri@access4.digex.net>
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In article <4qghbv$goh@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>   "As long at you folks continue to post about me I will respond.
>>    The longer the post the long[er] my tagline will be."
>>                                      - Matt Giwer, June 20, 1996
>
>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.  
>
>	Keep that singlehandedly firmly in mind.  
>
>	You folks called me an anti-semite and a nazi without cause.  You
>harrassed my service provider.  You harrassed my family.  You did
>anything you could to silence me.

    Except, of course, issue forged cancels.  Interesting how those who
scream that Nizkor is out to silence people "at all costs" never notice
that the simplest way to do so has not been employed.


>	Consider it righteous Jewish revenge.

    Libeling those who did not wrong you in those ways is not righteous.


>	I never did tell you that, did I.  

    You identify yourself as a member of what you previously called an
unidentifiable group? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 46845 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:55:24 EDT
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4qnnvj$qpg@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46845 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56634

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) said:

[snip]

>Posted;  cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  Please redirect
>followups to whichever group is most appropriate.

>Not emailed to "DvdThomas," because he has said he doesn't care to receive
>email from me.  Not emailed to Matt Giwer, because he has said he doesn't
>care to receive email from me.

Giwer is afraid to receive e-mail from you.  He can't cope with it.

--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                      


Article 46874 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:10:37 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4qnead$aln@Vir.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com

"Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
> <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...
> 
> > NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
> > 
> > To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
> > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile
> 
> An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don't
> Nizkorians kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
> Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
> reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
> newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.
> 

   Wonderfull!
   The only problem is that I would miss Daniel Keren and Mark Van Alstine
   postings, and this I don't know if I'll support it.  I'm reading	
   _each one_ 5 times a day,  and enjoy the style and the originality,
   what's a lost.

    Someone may have put something in my coffee.
    


Article 46875 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:18:19 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
> In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons"
> <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
> 
> > Why don't Nizkorians
> > kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
> > Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
> > reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
> > newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.
> 
> If you were paying attention, Mr. Coons, you would know that I most
> certainly do not ignore revisionists/deniers.  I pay them quite a
> bit of attention.  I've carried on discussions with (to name a few)
> Jack Wikoff, Bradley Smith, David Cole, David Irving, Andrew Allen,
> Alexander Baron, and I'm trying to discuss something with
> Jean-Francois Beaulieu but technical difficulties are making it hard...
> 

  I'm sure that they will improve crematorie's performance before
   the 22 th century Jamie, don't turn desespair, with a bit of tenacity...

> Anyway, the point is that none of those people has announced that
> their goal is to take over the newsgroup and make it a place where
> discussion is next to impossible.  None of those people is flagrant
> net abusers who troll just to stir up trouble.  And all of those
> people at least had some interest in discussing matters with me.
> 
> Giwer is just a troll, and he's out to destroy discussion.  There's
> nothing wrong with ignoring someone who has those goals.


  A small question: in your statistics about articles from Giwer
  but especially 'about Giwer'
  that monopolized this newsgroup, did you include several of your

  statistic reports and R. Green 'following list' or do you count
  them apart?



Article 46894 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:58:19 EDT
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In article <31CDDA53.72D2@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  said:

>Mr Giwer apparently defines the word "attack" to indicate those posts that
>prove him wrong.  For example,

That would explain why he posts so much, since virtually every post proves
the idiot wrong about something.


--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                                             


Article 46913 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:43:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren  wrote:
>>ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>>
>>Greg Raven, who admires Hitler and writes that he was a "great
>>man", and "the best thing that could have happened to Germany",
>>says:
>>
>># Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas
>># chamber when I wasn't looking?
>>
>>There's a new game now. You have to prove that Dresden was
>>bombed, or that WW2 happened. And we are allowed to use
>>"revisionist" type arguments used to question the gas chambers,
>>to question your proofs.
>>
>>Go ahead.

>But to answer Mr. Raven's question: Krema I at Auschwitz, although
>reconstructed, was a gas chamber.  Kremas II-V at Birkenau were gas
>chambers.

	If these were in fact gas chambers why was there no provision for
preheating the incoming air to exhaust the gas?  Without that any
outside air below its condensation point (lots of it in Poland) causes
it to condense out of the air and onto the walls and bodies.  

	Or is one of our favorite chemists going to play games again?  





Article 46914 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:44:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>     If you don't count the lies, refusals to post documentation, etc.
>> 
>> >  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
>> >*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>> >balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.
>> 
>>     Much of it is doubtful.  I want to go back and check the full context
>> to see if some of it is not really testimony.  Carlos Porter pulled things

>I kept telling you, and still do: MATT GIWER IS A TROLL.

>Facts have nothing to do with the situation, intellectual integrity has
>nothing to do with the situation, NADA!

>Even his crowing about being a troll is a troll!!!

>There is a way to nuke him, but not this way!

	Why do you not explain the method?  Or better yet, demonstrate it?  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet ... All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. "
IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	





Article 46932 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 19-20: 25.1% / 32.5%
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 24 Jun 1996 20:42:06 -0700
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
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Prince Myshkin writes:
>jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>   "...we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
>>    revisionism.  That is, make it useless to the hijackers."
>>                                      - Prince Myshkin, June 21, 1996
>
>>Prince Myshkin has singlehandedly taken over alt.revisionism.  With trolls,
>>with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word
>>responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point,
>>he has buried the signal under an avalanche of noise.
>
>>Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront "revisionist"
>>claims.  Myshkin's aim is to make that impossible.
>
>>This automated posting script keeps track of Myshkin's posting volume
>>and thus his success in monopolizing the group.
>
>>Here are the statistics for June 19th and 20th:
>
>>  Total number of articles posted: 495
>
>>       Articles from Prince Myshkin: 124 (25.1%)
>>        Articles mentioning Myshkin: 161 (32.5%)
>
>	I missed a few.  Sorry about that.  I'll try to do better.

LOL. I do believe he means it. Content be damned, the bonehead troll
intends to "win." 

-rich
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/


Article 46989 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:02:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>>
>>In article <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, 
>>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>>>Giwer:

>>Giwer's still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

>Giwer who?



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                                            
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  








Article 47051 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:53:48 EDT
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In article <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>
>In article <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, 
>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>>Giwer:

>Giwer's still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

Giwer who?



--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331

                                                                                            


Article 47066 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 04:50:19 GMT
Organization: Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel.
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Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: My claims were addressed? This is news to me. 

As I recall, your big bete noire is lack of "proof" for a Nazi gas chamber.
When asked for what you consider to be "proof," you have this tendency
to disappear.  For example, I once asked you to "prove"  that World War
II occurred using the same standards of proof you would require from
someone who was trying to prove that there were Nazi gas chambers.  I
am still waiting for a response to that one.

: Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas chamber when I
: wasn't looking?

Yes, someone did.  And you even responded to the beginning of the proof --
and ran away as soon as it became apparent that you couldn't refute the
proof that was presented.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."


Article 47098 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Marty Kelley 
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 17-18: 32.1% / 37.4%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:08:04 -0700
Organization: The University of Arizona
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:89 alt.revisionism:47098

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

> 	You folks called me an anti-semite and a nazi without cause.  You
> harrassed my service provider.  You harrassed my family.  You did
> anything you could to silence me.

Who do you mean by "you folks?"  To date, you have identified only one 
person who supposedly harrassed your family--Marduk--and that 
"harrassment" consisted of a couple of rude e-mails to your son.  I 
certainly think Marduk was wrong to have done that.  But who are the 
others who you are accusing of harassing your family?  What did they do, 
and when did they do it?

> 	Consider it righteous Jewish revenge.  

Explain this comment, please?
> 
> 	I never did tell you that, did I.  

Explain this comment, please?


----------------------
Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

"All that I care to know is that a man is a human being--
that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."
					--Mark Twain


Article 47106 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:03:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
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In article ,
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> > In article <4qf1a2$h4d@access5.digex.net>
> >            mstein@access5.digex.net "Michael P. Stein" writes:
> > >     Excuse me, but I must be missing something.  Other "revisionists" have
> > > posted here - Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
> > > Vicksell, et al.  And their claims have been addressed.  They seem to have
> > > given it up.  The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
> > > J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
> 
> My claims were addressed? This is news to me. I have repeatedly posted a
> couple of simple questions to this newsgroup, and virtually all the
> responses were personal attacks and long digressions on matters almost
> totally unrelated to my question. The one or two "substantive" responses
> were laughably silly.
> 
> Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas chamber when I
> wasn't looking?

Mr. Raven, your "simple questions" have certainly been addressed. However,
that you seem to think otherwise, considering that you seem to have a
nebulous "standard" of "proof," is hardly suprising! Perhaps if you'd be
so kind to establish an _explicit_ criteria as to what establishes "proof"
such "confusion"  can be avoided in the future? Or would that be a bit too
restricting on your ability to dissimulate, obfuscate, and evade such
issues? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Article 56780 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:56:16 -0300
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31D05270.13D0@unb.ca>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31ce55a6.50636911@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qmv1d$bu0@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cf8d4b.58604310@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qo724$ik1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>         Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
> with the conspirators.
> 
>         It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
> himself with the conspirators.

So what does that say about you, who is associated by his position 
with liars, frauds, criminals, and other assorted lowlife?

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


Article 47126 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:27:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4qp7ia$fn8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>>>[snip]
>
>>>>>	You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.
>
>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>member of this so-called "Gang of Six."
>
>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.
>
>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.
>
>>>	I got the contributor's list from Nizkor.  Tell them to take you off of
>>>it if you do not want the honor.  Until they take you off, don't
>>>complain to me.  
>
>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.
>
>    There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to
>plan how to deal with people.  It is clearly implied that it is the
>Nizkor gang.  As they appear to all have the new approach the next day,
>the posts have been confirmed.

    Except that I have elsewhere been named as one of the "Gang of Six," 
yet my approach has not changed.  It appears we have a very unreliable
eyewitness once again. 


>	When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>brush.  Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.  

    Then Matt Giwer must now admit it was reasonable and acceptable to
call him an Nazi and antisemite.  For a good many of the revisionist crowd
are antisemites and neo-Nazi types.  He was just tarred with the same
brush. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 47143 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:56:16 -0300
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31D05270.13D0@unb.ca>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qhjhi$21r@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cce631.50736571@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qj2nn$rc9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31cda0a4.4292426@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qki0q$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31ce55a6.50636911@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qmv1d$bu0@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31cf8d4b.58604310@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4qo724$ik1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47143 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56780

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>         Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
> with the conspirators.
> 
>         It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
> himself with the conspirators.

So what does that say about you, who is associated by his position 
with liars, frauds, criminals, and other assorted lowlife?

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


Article 47160 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:14:19 EDT
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4r6hgd$1ujg@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qc8n8$1r7@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4qeek5$95i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qnnva$qpa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qo33o$76u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4qo33o$76u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com said:

>
>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>Giwer who?



>>--
>>Gord McFee

And now Giwer runs away again.
                                                                                    

>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Another gas chamber
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

>	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
>powdered cyanide.  

>"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
>dummy shower heads. In
>the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control
>inflow and outtake of
>gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
>generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. " IMT XXX
>- p.470. 

>	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

>	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  

Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
possible, it is feared by him.  

For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt



--
Gord McFee



.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.27 #331

                                                                  



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