The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 07:50:48 PDT 1996
Article: 70526 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,alt.flame,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goyim are scum
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:57:15 GMT
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:22:55 -0400, A Gryn  wrote:

>Talia Kalishnikov wrote:
>> 

>> Alec Grynspan wrote:
>> >
>> > <*[*] [*] [Dave Harman OBC] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>> > <+[Goyim are scum] [28 Sep 96 13:12][*][0]*>
>> >
>> >  DO> Good Question:  Should the goyim treat Jews in the same manner
>> >  DO> that the
>> >  DO>                 Torah and Talmud treat Gentiles?
>> >
>> > It would be an improvement.
>> 
>> I see you are still lying like a dog Alec.  When are you going to stop?
>> Just tell Netanyahu to close the door.

>Thank you for admitting your psychoses.

>I never lie.

>Now crawl back under your rock.

>I see that you've started putting in the no-archive flag.

>It won't help. There are several folks who now archive any message that
>has that flag. Too many slimeballs like yourself are out there trying to
>keep their messages off the archives.

>You'll still be burned by your own words.

	Now really.  Back when you were attacking Davie with such childish methods I
recommended you drop it.

	When in this conference you were accuse Dahlman of forging what I wrote you
ignored my email to stop it.  

	Why do you continue with this nonsense?  

	The only thing you hope to have on your side in longevity.

	And it has been clearly demonstrated that you can be stimulated to write ten
messages in response to one so your time is at my mercy.  


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 07:50:50 PDT 1996
Article: 70533 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Treblinka back for the fun of it
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:27:55 GMT
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Treblinka 

Wartime Aerial Photos of Treblinka Cast New Doubt on "Death Camp"
Claims 


by Mark Weber and Andrew Allen 

Treblinka is widely regarded as the second most important German wartime
extermination center. Only Auschwitz-Birkenau is supposed to have claimed more
lives. 

Treblinka became the focus of worldwide attention in 1987-1988 during the
14-month trial in Jerusalem of John (Ivan) Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian-born American
factory worker. As Treblinka's "Ivan the Terrible," Demjanjuk supposedly
operated the machinery used to gas hundreds of thousands of Jews there. Citing
testimony by Jewish survivors, the Israeli court that condemned him to death in
April 1988 declared that more than 850,000 Jews were killed at Treblinka between
July 1942 and August 1943. 

After the death sentence was handed down, Demjanjuk's family was able to
discover previously suppressed evidence -- much of it from Soviet Russian
archives -- indicating that the real "Ivan the Terrible" was another Ukrainian
named Ivan Marchenko (or Marczenko). This new evidence discredited the courtroom
testimony of five Jewish camp survivors, each of whom had "positively"
identified Demjanjuk as the sadistic mass murderer of Treblinka. (note 1) 

As historians know, and as common sense would suggest, such decades-old
testimony is far less trustworthy than contemporary records or forensic
evidence. (note 2) 

And yet, Treblinka's reputation as a mass extermination center is based almost
entirely on precisely such subjective and unprovable testimony by former
prisoners -- evidence that has proven to be notoriously unreliable in several
major trials of alleged "Nazi war criminals." (note 3) 

There is no documentary evidence that Treblinka was an extermination center. In
fact, contemporary records suggest that the camp had a very different function. 

Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka "death camp"
site -- and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives in
Washington, DC -- cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story that it was a
mass extermination center. 

Discovered in 1989, and published here for the first time in the United States,
these German reconnaissance photos corroborate other evidence indicating that
Treblinka was actually a transit camp. (note 4) 

These photographs indicate that the remarkably small camp was not isolated, or
even particularly well guarded. (They clearly show that fields where Polish
farmers planted and cultivated crops were directly adjacent to the camp
perimeter.) 

Moreover, the camp's burial area quite obviously appears too small to contain
the hundreds of thousands of bodies supposedly buried there. (Casting doubt on
the widely accepted story of hundreds of thousands of Treblinka victims, these
photos suggest instead that only those deportees who died during the sometimes
protracted rail journey to the camp were buried there.) 

'Steam Chambers' 

The generally accepted story today is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were
killed at Treblinka in gas chambers with poisonous exhaust from engines. But the
"original" Treblinka extermination story was that Jews were steamed to death
there in "steam chambers." 

According to an "eyewitness" account received in November 1942 in London from
the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, Jews were exterminated in "death
rooms" at Treblinka with "steam coming out of the numerous holes in the pipes."
(note 5) In August 1943, the New York Times reported that two million Jews had
already been killed at Treblinka by steaming them to death. (note 6) 

The Treblinka steam story is also given in detail in The Black Book of Polish
Jewry, a work published in New York in 1943 and "sponsored" by Albert Einstein,
Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, Congressman Sol Bloom, New York Mayor Fiorello
LaGuardia, and other personalities. (note 7) Another book, Lest We Forget,
published in New York in 1943 by the World Jewish Congress, describes in detail
how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of
the purported "boiler room" that produced the "live steam." (note 8) 

According to a 1944 "eyewitness" account compiled by the OSS, the principle US
intelligence agency, Jews at Treblinka "were in general killed by steam and not
by gas as had been at first suspected." (note 9) 

At the main Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, two conflicting stories were given:
steaming and gassing. Former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified that
Jews were killed there in gas chambers. (note 10) (To confuse matters still
more, a few months earlier Rajzman claimed that during the time he was in
Treblinka, Jews were "suffocated to death" there with a machine that pumped air
out of death chambers.) (note 11) 

American prosecutors at the main Nuremberg trial supported the steam story. As
proof, a Polish government report dated December 5, 1945, was submitted as
prosecution exhibit USA-293. It charged that Jews were killed at the camp "by
suffocating them in steam-filled chambers." This report, which says nothing
about poison gas killings, was published in the official Nuremberg trial record
as document PS-3311. (note 12) An American prosecutor quoted from this report
during his address to the Tribunal on December 14, 1945. (note 13) 

Although no reputable historian now supports the "steam" story, and little has
been heard of it during the last several decades, it was revived in a
widely-circulated booklet published in 1979 and 1985 by the influential
Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith. (note 14) 

There may have been a factual basis for the "steam chamber" stories. It is quite
possible that there was indeed some kind of steaming operation at Treblinka --
but one designed to kill disease-carrying lice, not people. Such disinfection
steaming was commonly used in German camps for Allied prisoners of war. (note
15) 

Shortly after the war, the World Jewish Congress published The Black Book, a
559-page volume of real and imagined wartime atrocities against Jews. At
Treblinka alone, the book alleges, three million persons were killed. Three
diabolical techniques, including poison gas and steam, were supposedly used
there to kill some 10,000 Jews daily. But "the most widespread" method
"consisted of pumping all the air out from the chambers with large special
pumps." (note 16) A former inmate testified shortly after the war that
Treblinka's victims were "poisoned by the different gasses or asphyxiated when
the chamber was turned into a vacuum and all the air sucked out." (note 17) 

In the Nuremberg trial of Oswald Pohl, U.S. Judge Michael A. Musmanno declared
that "death was inflicted here [at Treblinka] by gas and steam, as well as by
electric current." Citing Nuremberg document PS-3311, Musmanno declared: "After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was
let in." (note 18) 

Adolf Eichmann, the wartime head of the SS Jewish affairs section, said in 1961
during pre-trial interrogation in Israel that during the war he "was told" that
Jews were gassed at Treblinka "with potassium cyanide." (note 19) 

One of the strangest Treblinka extermination stories, which appeared in
September 1942 in a Polish underground periodical, claimed that Jews were killed
there with a "delayed action" gas: (note 20) 

    They enter it [the gas chamber] in groups of 300-500 people. Each group is
    immediately closed hermetically inside, and gassed. The gas does not affect
    them immediately, because the Jews still have to continue on to the pits
that
    are a few dozen meters away, and whose depth is 30 meters. There they fall
    unconscious, and a digger covers them with a thin layer of earth. Then
another group arrives. 

According to the testimony of yet another "eyewitness," a Jew named Oskar Berger
who escaped from the camp, many Jews were systematically put to death at
Treblinka by shooting them with rifle and machine-gun fire. (note 21) 

Diesel Gassing 

In recent years, the most widely-circulated story has been that Jews were gassed
at Treblinka with carbon monoxide from the exhaust of a diesel engine. (note 22)


However, as American engineer Friedrich Berg has established, this story is
improbable for technical reasons. (note 23) In spite of the obnoxious odor of
diesel exhaust, diesel engines produce much smaller quantities of toxic carbon
monoxide than ordinary gasoline motors. (note 24) It would thus be difficult
efficiently to gas large numbers of people using diesel exhaust. A normal
gasoline engine would be much more logical. (note 25) 

It is important to keep in mind that the "evidence" now usually cited for diesel
gassing at Treblinka is no more credible than the evidence that was once
presented for steaming and suffocating. Apparently the steaming and suffocating
stories have been dropped for the sake of credible consistency. 

Solid evidence for gassings at Treblinka has proven to be very elusive. For
example, it turned out that none of the witnesses in the 1951 West German
"Treblinka" court case ever actually saw anyone being gassed. "The type of gas
used to kill the people there [Treblinka] cannot be determined with certainty
because none of the witnesses was able to witness this procedure," the judges
declared in their verdict. (note 26) 

At least some former Treblinka prisoners testified in postwar West German trials
that they not only never saw a gas chamber, but did not even hear about gassings
>from  others. (note 27) 

Holocaust historians today are not able to agree about the number of homicidal
"gas chambers" at Treblinka. Raul Hilberg maintains that there were three at
first, but because they were allegedly not adequate for the job, more were built
later on. There were eventually six or perhaps ten chambers, he reports. (note
28) Others have reported the existence of 13 gas chambers at Treblinka. (note
29) 

Bomba's Testimony 

One of the most memorable testimonies about Treblinka presented in Shoah, the
nine-and-a-half-hour Holocaust film by French Jewish film maker Claude Lanzmann,
is that of Abraham Bomba. He told how he and other Jewish barbers cut the hair
of the naked Jews who were about to be gassed. They worked inside "the" gas
chamber (he always spoke of one chamber), which was "around four by four meters"
(about 12 feet by 12 feet). Bomba also reported that "140 or 150 women," with
children, as well as 16 or 17 barbers, were inside this small room. In addition,
there were benches where the women sat while their hair was cut, as well as two
or more German guards. 

The barbers had to leave the chamber for five minutes while the victims were
gassed, Bomba said, and it took just one minute to clear out the 140 or so
corpses, and clean the floor and walls, before everything was ready for the next
batch of victims. (note 30) 

Bomba's moving testimony, which conservative writer George Will called the "most
stunning in this shattering film," is simply not credible. 

Treblinka Labor Camp

About one mile (1.5 km) from the "extermination camp," which was known as
"Treblinka II," was a penal labor camp for Poles and Jews known as "Treblinka
I." It was not at all secret. The 1941 directive announcing the establishment of
the "Treblinka Labor Camp" was published in both Polish and German in widely
distributed official journals. (note 31) Poles and Jews worked in a large sand
and gravel quarry at the Treblinka labor camp. (note 32) 

As wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs clearly show, the Treblinka T-I
labor camp was located at the end of the rail spur on which the Treblinka T-II
"extermination" (transit) camp was also located. This fact strengthens the
thesis that the T-II camp was not particularly secret, since penal labor
prisoners being taken by train to and from the publicly known T-I camp passed
directly by the supposedly top secret T-II "extermination" camp. (note 33) 

Documentary Evidence

Documents found after the war confirm that large numbers of Jews were deported
to Treblinka in 1942 and 1943. German railway records report the transfer of
trainloads of "settlers" ("Umsiedler") and "workers" to Treblinka from various
places in Poland and from other countries. (note 34) 

In July 1942, a senior German railway official reported to the chief of
Himmler's personal staff that 5,000 Jews were being transported daily to
Treblinka. (note 35) An August 3, 1942, German "Ostbahn" railway directive
similarly reported that special trains would be carrying "resettlers" from
Warsaw to Treblinka daily, until further notice. (note 36) 

Interestingly, it was not until September 1, 1942, that the Treblinka train
station was closed to passenger rail travel by the general public ("to permit a
smooth handling of the special resettlement trains"), which suggests that German
officials were not particularly concerned with keeping the deportations or the
station secret. (note 37) 

Other records mention trains to Treblinka in March 1943 from Vienna, Bulgaria
and Greece. (note 38) From Vienna and Luxembourg, Jews reportedly arrived at the
camp in passenger train coaches, and the deportees were given food and medical
care during their journey. (note 39) In at least one case, a train with sleeping
cars and a dining car arrived at Treblinka. (note 40) 

German railway records have been cited as evidence that hundreds of thousands of
Jews were exterminated at Treblinka. (note 41) While there is little doubt that
these documents are genuine, and that they confirm transports of Jews to
Treblinka, they are not proof of an extermination program. (note 42) 

Transit Camp

If Treblinka was not an extermination center, what was it? As already mentioned,
the balance of evidence indicates that Treblinka II -- along with Belzec and
Sobibor -- was a transit camp, where Jewish deportees were stripped of their
property and valuables before being transferred eastwards into German-occupied
Soviet territories. (note 43) 

The generally-accepted story is that Treblinka II was a "pure" extermination
center, from which no Jew was permitted to leave alive. (note 44) However,
credible reports of deportations of Jews from Treblinka refute the allegation
that all Jews sent there were destined for extermination, and indicate instead
that the camp functioned as a transit center. 

In the aftermath of the April 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising, for example, Jews
were transported from Warsaw to Treblinka II. As some of the deportees later
confirmed, after a "selection" in the camp, trainloads of hundreds of Jews were
taken from Treblinka to Lublin (Majdanek), and possibly other camps. (note 45)
Several thousand Jews (at least) were transferred by German authorities from
Treblinka to other camps, a postwar German court determined. (note 46) 

Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who, by all
accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a transit
center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet territories. These
messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus (Byelorussia),
Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews who had
been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail and some had
arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the senders were working
hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children) were being fed. (note
47) 

Completely contrary to its supposed character as a top secret extermination
center, Treblinka was neither secret nor even closely guarded, as both former
inmates and officials have confirmed. "Secrecy? Good heavens, there was no
secrecy about Treblinka," Jewish prisoner Richard Glazer later testified. "All
the Poles between there and Warsaw must have known about it, and lived off the
proceeds. All the peasants came to barter, the Warsaw whores did business with
the Ukrainians -- it was a circus for all of them." Polish farmers worked the
fields that directly adjoined the camp. "And many others," said Jewish survivor
Berek Rojzman, "came to the fence to barter, mostly with the Ukrainians, but
with us too." (note 48) 

Even regular German concentration camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald were much
more closely guarded than Treblinka. As already mentioned, aerial reconnaissance
photographs taken in 1944 confirm that the area around Treblinka was not
cleared. The photos show that one perimeter of the camp passed through a wooded
area, and that cultivated fields where Polish farmers worked were directly
adjacent to the camp perimeter. (note 49) 

How Many Victims?

Shortly after the end of the war, the World Jewish Congress and at least one
former Treblinka prisoner alleged that more than three million Jews had been
exterminated there. (note 50) More recent estimates of the number of people
allegedly killed at Treblinka range from between 700,000 (Leon Poliakov and Uwe
Adam), 750,000 (Raul Hilberg and Encyclopaedia Judaica), 870,000 (Yitzhak Arad),
to more than 900,000 (Wolfgang Scheffler and Washington Post). (note 51) 

There is no documentary or physical evidence for any of these figures, which are
simply conjectural estimates. 

Layout and Size

Diagrams published in recent years that show Treblinka as a neatly organized,
rectangular-shaped camp are not accurate. (note 52) As already mentioned,
though, wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs confirm that the Treblinka II
camp was actually unsymmetrically four-sided and irregularly shaped. (note 53) 

One of the most remarkable features of the Treblinka "death camp" is its small
size. The entire Treblinka II camp area was only 32 or 33 acres (13 hectares),
or about onetwentieth of a square mile. (note 54) Even smaller was the alleged
"extermination" area of the camp, which was 200 by 250 meters in size (or five
hectares) according to purportedly authoritative sources. (note 55) 

Poland's "Central Commission" announced shortly after the war that the burial or
"ditches" area where the bodies of Treblinka's victims were buried (before they
were supposedly later dug up for burning) was about two hectares or five acres
(or some 20,235 square meters). (note 56) And according to a diagram in a book
about Treblinka by Jewish Holocaust historian Alexander Donat, the camp's
"ditches" area was not more than 80 or 100 meters in length and about 50 meters
wide -- that is, a maximum of 5,000 square meters or half a hectare. (note 57) 

By comparison, the mass graves area in the Katyn forest (near Smolensk), which
held the bodies of some 4,500 Polish officers who had been killed by Soviet
secret police and buried there in 1940, measured about 500 square meters. (note
58) 

In short, it is very difficult to accept that anything like 700,000 or 800,000
bodies could have been buried in the minuscule area allegedly set aside at
Treblinka for this purpose. 

Cremation Inconsistencies

Between April and July 1943, the corpses of Treblinka's hundreds of thousands of
victims were allegedly dug up from the burial pits and burned with "dry wood and
branches" on grids made of rails in batches of 2,000 or 2,500. The residual "ash
and bits of bone" were dumped back into the burial pits, and covered with a
layer of sand and dirt two meters deep. This was done, it is said, in order to
eliminate the physical evidence of mass extermination. (note 59) 

Although enormous amounts of fuel would have been needed to cremate the hundreds
of thousands of alleged corpses, there is no documentary record or witness
recollection of the great quantities of firewood that would have been required.
According to Polish-Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, fuel to burn bodies was
not needed at Treblinka because "the bodies of woman," which had more fat, "were
used to kindle, or more accurately put, to build the fires among the piles of
corpses." Even more incredible, "blood, too, was found to be first-class
combustion material," she wrote. (note 60) 

Missing Remains

A wartime Warsaw ghetto internee, Dr. Adolf Berman, testified in the 1961
Eichmann trial that he visited the Treblinka camp site shortly after the Soviet
occupation of Poland. He told the Jerusalem court that he saw "an area of
several square kilometers covered with bones and skulls, and nearby tens upon
tens of thousands of shoes, many of them children's shoes." (note 61) 

Berman's testimony, which was considered one of the most emotionally moving of
the Eichmann trial, is completely inconsistent with known facts. For one thing,
the entire Treblinka camp was much smaller than one square kilometer in size,
and no other witness has confirmed the presence of "tens of thousands" of shoes.


Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, a member of an official Polish commission that
inspected the camp site in November 1945 -- that is, a few months after the end
of the war -- reported finding large human bones, "rotted masses of corpses,"
"pieces of half-rotted corpses," and "fully dressed" corpses, at the Treblinka
camp site. (note 62) 

In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the
commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found "human remains,
partially in the process of decay," and an unspecified amount of ash. Untouched
sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. An
accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some large bones. (note 63) 

Poland's "Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes" reported that
"large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human
bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues," were found in the five
acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site shortly after
the end of the war. (note 64) 

The presence of uncremated human remains is not consistent with the
often-repeated allegation that all such remains were thoroughly destroyed.
Significantly, none of the Polish reports specifies the quantity of human
remains, the numbers of corpses, or the amount of ash found at the camp site,
which suggests that evidence of hundreds of thousands of victims was not found.
(note 65) 

In spite of its often inconsistent, contradictory and implausible character,
testimony indicating that many Jews lost their lives at Treblinka cannot easily
be dismissed. Many Jewish prisoners doubtless perished during their rail journey
to the camp site, and were almost certainly buried there. Furthermore, it is
plausible and even likely that hundreds and perhaps thousands of Jews who were
too weak or ill to continue the eastbound journey from the camp were killed
there by officials acting on their own authority. 

All the same, there is no hard or compelling evidence that Treblinka was a mass
extermination center where hundreds of thousands of Jews were systematically put
to death. To the contrary, credible reports of transfers of Jews from Treblinka
eastwards to the occupied Soviet territories, the relative lack of secrecy and
security in the camp, and the small size of the area where the bodies were
supposedly buried, all suggest instead that this was a transit center. 

Notes

  1.F. Dannen, "How Terrible is Ivan?," Vanity Fair (New York), June 1992, pp.
132 ff.;     "New Evidence: Demjanjuk a Nazi Guard, Probably Not 'Ivan'," Los
Angeles Times,     January 16, 1992.; C. Haberman, "Soviet Files Are
Presented... ," The New York     Times, June 2, 1992, p. A6. 

  2.On the unreliability of such testimony, see John Cobden's review of Witness
for the
    Defense (by E. Loftus and K. Ketcham) in The Journal of Historical Review,
Summer
    1991, pp. 238-249.; Samuel Gringauz, a Jewish historian who was himself
interned
    in the Kaunas ghetto during the war, wrote: "Most of the memoirs and reports
[of
    Holocaust survivors] are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic
exaggeration,
    dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing,
would-be
    lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies." (Jewish
Social
    Studies, New York, January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65.). 

  3.On the unreliability of such "eyewitness" testimony in the illustrative case
of Frank
    Walus, who was falsely accused of murdering Jews as a Gestapo officer in
Poland,
    see, for example, "The Nazi Who Never Was," The Washington Post, May 10,
1981,
    pp. B5, B8. 

  4.These aerial reconnaissance photos are on file in the National Archives
    (Washington, DC), Cartographic Division (Record Group 373). Several of these
    reconnaissance photos were published in Germany in 1990 by Udo Walendy in
the
    booklet "Der Fall Treblinka," Historische Tatsachen, Nr. 44, 1990. (Postfach
1643,
    D-4973 Vlotho, Germany). See especially pages 13, 31, 34, 35, 38. In this
booklet,
    Walendy cites specific archival source references from the US National
Archives for
    these photographs. Unfortunately, these specific references are not always
quite
    accurate. The specific source references cited by Walendy are: 
        GX 12225 (or 122225?), Exp. 257 (and 258, 259?). (November or May 1944) 
        GX 180 D F 934/44 SK , Exp. 246 (May 18, 1944) 
        GX 12299 B A -2249, Exp. 014 (July 10, 1944) 
        GX 72 F 933/44 SK, Exp. 139, 140 (May 13, 1944) 
        GX 1946 F 2926 /44 SK, Exp. 062 (Sept. 18, 1944) 
        GX 937 F 13 A 6099, Exp. 74 
        GX 12250 F 2795 SK, Exp. 045 (Sept. 2, 1944) 
        GX 12290 F 3086 SK r 2600, Exp. 68 (Oct. 16, 1944) 
        GX 1946 / 44 SD, Exp. 076. 
        GX 12373, Exp. 11 (Sept. 2, 1944) 
    The most important of these Treblinka aerial photographs were made public
for the
    first time in the United States in January 1991 at a meeting in Palo Alto,
California.
    (IHR Newsletter, Feb. 1991, p. 3.). We gratefully acknowledge the assistance
of the
    Polish Historical Society (Stamford, Connecticut) in compiling this essay.
Soviet
    wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs of the Treblinka camp site almost
    certainly exist, and are very probably still held in Russian archives. If
so, they should
    be made public. 

  5."Likwidacja zydowskiej Warszawy, Treblinka," Biuleytn Zydowskiego Instytutu
    Historycznego (Warsaw), Jan.-June 1951, pp. 93-100. Quoted in: Carlo
Mattogno,
    "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews," The Journal of Historical
Review, Fall
    1988, pp. 273-274, 295 (n. 16). 

  6.New York Times, Aug. 8, 1943, p. 11. Reprinted in: The Record: The Holocaust
in
    History (New York: ADL, 1985), p. 10. (The Record was also distributed as an
    advertising supplement to the New York Post, April 17, 1978.) 

  7.Jacob Apenszlak, ed., The Black Book of Polish Jewry (New York: 1943), pp.
    142-143, 145. 

  8.World Jewish Congress, Lest We Forget (New York: 1943), pp. 4, 6-7.; See
also the
    reference to killings at Treblinka by "hot steam" in Hitler's Ten-Year War
On the Jews
    (p. 149), a book published in New York in 1943 by the "Institute of Jewish
Affairs," an
    agency of the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress. 

  9.OSS document, April 13, 1944. National Archives (Washington, DC), Military
    Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records), No. 67231. 

 10.International Military Tribunal, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
    International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg: 1947-1949, ("blue series"), Vol.
8, p. 325.
    (Feb. 27, 1946) 

 11.Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p. 130.;
This
    story also appears in: Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York: 1982), p.
263. 

 12.IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military
Tribunal (IMT
    "blue series"/ 1947-1949), vol. 32, pp. 153-158; Also published in: Nazi
Conspiracy
    and Aggression (NC&A "red series"/ 1946-1948), Vol. 5, pp. 1104-1108. See
also:
    NC&A ("red series"), vol. 1, pp. 1005-1006. 

 13.IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals ("blue series"), vol. 3, p. 567-568. 

 14.The Record: The Holocaust in History. (The NYT report of Aug. 8, 1943, is
    reproduced here.) 

 15.Major S. G. Cowper, "A Note on a Disinfestation Plant Used in a Typhus
Hospital for
    Prisoners of War in Germany," Journal of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Sept.
    1946, Vol. 87, No. 3, pp. 173-176.; "Typhus," 1922 supplement to
Encyclopaedia
    Britannica. Facsimile reprint in: Carlos Porter, Made in Russia (1988), p.
364.;
    Globocnik reported in Jan. 1944 that textile goods seized in the course of
"Aktion
    Reinhardt" were disinfected. See: 4024-PS. IMT "blue series," vol. 34, p.
84. Jacob
    Seewald, a Polish Jew, spent the war years working as a forester in a German
labor
    camp. When he came down with a severe illness, he was transferred to a
hospital,
    where he recovered. After the war he emigrated to the United States. In a
1983
    interview, he recalled that the camp authorities "took us [Jewish workers]
into a
    shower for the steam to kill lice. There we got no clothes, just a bundle
with our
    names on them. Naked. Then they turn on the water for a second -- scalding
water."
    (John C. Bromely, "Stories from the Darkness," The Denver Post Magazine,
    Sunday, June 12, 1983, p. 20.) Similar events at Treblinka may perhaps have
    provided a basis for the camp's "steam" legend. 

 16.Jewish Black Book Comm., The Black Book (1946), pp. 407-408. 

 17.Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York: 1982), p. 263. 

 18.Trials of the War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals (NMT
"green
    series"/ Washington, DC: 1949-1953), vol. 5, pp. 1133-1134. 

 19.Jochen von Lang, ed., Eichmann Interrogated (New York: 1983), p. 84.; See
also: R.
    Aschenauer, ed., Ich, Adolf Eichmann (1980), pp. 179, 183. 

 20."Information Bulletin," Sept. 8, 1942, published by the command of the
Polish
    underground "Armia Krajowa." Quoted in: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor,
Treblinka
    (Bloomington: 1987), pp. 353 f. 

 21.E. Kogon, Theory and Practice of Hell (New York: Berkley, pb., 1981), pp.
183-185. 

 22.Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (New York: 1985), p.
878.;
    "Treblinka," Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), vol. 15, p. 1368.; Eugen Kogon,
et al.,
    Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen (1986), p. 163; Yitzhak Arad,
"Treblinka," in:
    I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, pp. 1483, 1484. 

 23.F. Berg, "The Diesel Gas Chambers," The Journal of Historical Review, Spring
    1984, pp. 15-46. 

 24.R. Schmidt, A. Carey, and R. Kamo, "Exhaust Characteristics of the
Automotive
    Diesel," Society of Automotive Engineers Transactions (New York), Vol. 75,
Sec. 3,
    1967, pp. 106, 107. (paper 660550). 

 25.Even more logical and efficient than a gasoline engine -- in the view of
engineer
    Friedrich Berg -- would have been the "Holzgas" generator, which were in
very
    widespread use in Europe during the war years. See: F. Berg, "The Diesel Gas
    Chambers," The Journal of Historical Review, Spring 1984, pp. 38-41. 

 26.Case against J. Hirtreiter, LG Frankfurt, 1951. Justiz und NS-Verbrechen
    (Amsterdam: 1972), Band 8, p. 264 (270 a-4). 

 27.Hans Peter Rullmann, Der Fall Demjanjuk (Sonnenbühl: 1987), p. 149. Source
cited:
    Adalbert Rückerl, NS-Vernichtungslager (1977).; An unsatisfactory
explanation has
    been offered for this remarkable testimony: these witnesses must have been
    inmates of the nearby Treblinka labor camp, or for some other reason were
never in
    the "extermination" section of the T-II camp. 

 
=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 07:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 70537 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan-howard-stern
Subject: Re: Baron Lies About the ADL Again
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 04:13:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 30 Sep 1996 09:29:32 GMT, Greg Matson  wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>   A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) writes:
>>  
>>>  Bore, bore, lie, lie, fucking bore. Mr Stein has a copy of this non-existent 
>>>  article. 
>>
>>	Which, according to Mr. Stein, makes no mention of the statements 
>>you have attributed to it.
>> 
>>>  >         By the way, I take it this is -- at long last -- an admission that you
>>>  >  cannot 
>>>  > point to a statement from the ADL stating that 20% of Americans are
>>>  >  anti-Semites.
>>  
>>>  Like I said, the lies of these hatemongers are a matter of public record;
>>>  check out Weyl the book they commissioned ANTI-SEMITISM [sic] IN 
>>AMERICA.
>>
>>	A public record which you cannot point out.  Weyl is liar.  You are a 
>>liar.
>>
>>	--YFE

> How can 20% of all Americans be anti-Semites when the Jews do not have a 
>drop of semite blood in them. As for as the ADL, it's a spy arm of the 
>Israeli.

	And the JDL is the terrorist arm of Israel.  
=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 07:50:54 PDT 1996
Article: 70540 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CLOSED FOR REPAIRS
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 05:01:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:14:01 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	How will the sun set on the Holocaust story? I've often thought
>about that. I mean, say, how will they go about shuting down all the
>Holocaust Museums? Just close the doors? Now their certainly not going
>to put up a sign saying something like, "Due to the discovery that the
>Holocaust was all a lie, this museum will be closed from here on out.'
>I would say it will be something more like, 'CLOSED FOR REPAIRS', then
>never to open again.		 

	Actually they will simply "shift their focus" as the reports of the USHMM
indicate.  

	From the reports you have to believe in gassing before you go there as it makes
so few claims related to the traditional lynchpins.

	As previously noted the St. Pete holocaust museum plans to feature things that
have absolutely no relation to any aspect of any version of the holocaust.
Rather it will be a purely ethnic jewish museum.  

=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 07:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 70549 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,alt.flame,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goyim are scum
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:52:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:05:07 -0700, Talia Kalishnikov 
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>Alec Grynspan wrote:
>> 
>> <*[*] [*] [Dave Harman OBC] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>> <+[Goyim are scum] [28 Sep 96 13:12][*][0]*>
>> 
>>  DO> Good Question:  Should the goyim treat Jews in the same manner
>>  DO> that the
>>  DO>                 Torah and Talmud treat Gentiles?
>> 
>> It would be an improvement.

>I see you are still lying like a dog Alec.  When are you going to stop?  
>Just tell Netanyahu to close the door.

	If the door is closed, how can Alec be taken for a walk?  

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 07:50:56 PDT 1996
Article: 70565 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec, the MOSSAD SUCKS
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 04:23:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
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On 30 Sep 1996 17:58:07 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	Those idiots, those incompetant assholes, were not able to tell the
>>USS Liberty was not an Egyptian ship.  What a shitass bunch of incompetants
>>you murdered on behalf of.  

>	1. Giwer assumes that Mossad identified the ship. 

	I do not.  I said the pilots of the IDF planes.  

This I'm not sure
>about, but I thought that naval radar stations would have been involved in
>indentifying ships.

	That is only because you know nothing of radar in 1967.  So stop pretending that
your "thinking" is any more than imagining.  

>	2. If the USS Liberty was attacked as the result of misidentification,
>then it would not the be the only case of that happening: USS Vincennes
>shot down an Iranian Airbus by mistake, `friendly fire' incidents in the Gulf
>War, etc.

	But of course there were so many close passes and radio identification by the
IDF planes as a US ship that we know they correctly identified the Liberty.  

	



=====
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From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 12:32:03 PDT 1996
Article: 70608 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Show Trials'? No, Just Another 'Revisionist' Lie
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:56:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:49:49 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) writes:

># As someone who has read the entire transcript - not just
># the book - I can confirm that the defence mustered by the
># British military lawyers was, up to a point, vigorous. It
># is my impression that they, especially Backhouse and 
># Winwood, did their best for their clients within certain
># parameters.

>Thank you for admitting that the "revisionist" claim about
>"show trials" is a lie.

	When the IMT took judicial notice of the fact of the crimes thus relieving the
prosecution of the burden of proving crimes had occurred, it became a show
trial.  At that point things like mass extermination by steaming became a given
and it was only necessary to determine who was in charge of the camps at the
time the mass steamings occurred to determine the guilty.  

	But you know that, jew traitor.  

=====
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From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 12:32:03 PDT 1996
Article: 70643 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the zero, no three, no four, no, um...
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:58:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <52khq3$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 28 Sep 96 13:57:43, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: the zero, no three, no four, no, um...] [27 Sep 96 16:12][*][0]*>

> MG>   This is exactly the four things I have been saying for weeks.
> MG> Are you going to pretend you have not been following the
> MG> conference again?

>Weeks?!?!

>Try seconds.

>BTW - If you want the physical evidence mailed to you, just ask.

>Then you'll get it.

	That you have not been paying attention is not my fault.  Get with the probem or
call 1-800-BEWHOLE right away.  

=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:04 PDT 1996
Article: 70602 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If the holocaust is not a fake,then why is Ken McVoy and Nizkor so chicken shit to deabet Winston Smith ?
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 04:52:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:46:50 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/dachau/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/natzweiler/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/nordhausen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/ohrdruf/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/thekla/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/maidanek/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/images

	Obvious babbling.  


=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:05 PDT 1996
Article: 70635 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Amen, Reverend, Amen.
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:06:15 GMT
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Distribution: inet
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:54:05 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Charles Don Hall wrote:

>> I think that you should apologize for giving Mr. Schloedel
>> (and his dog Megan) such potentially dangerous advice. What
>> do you think?
>> 
>> Maybe as penance, you could loan him some money to file
>> his lawsuit. You're rich, right? You retired *voluntarily*,
>> because you have so much money that you don't need to work,
>> right?

>As penance he might do time.  By counselling Schoedel to break the
>law, Giwer himself has committed a criminal offense.

	More holohugger lying.  But it does come direct from the Protocols.  
=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:06 PDT 1996
Article: 70636 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Such a sorry shame, too
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:06:21 GMT
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On 1 Oct 1996 00:58:45 -0700, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Schoedel  writes:
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote thusly:
>>>McVay will continue to steal.  But in the end
>>>someone is going to come down on him in a very big way
>>
>>Such a sorry shame, too. Under  more honest leadership and direction
>>Nizkor could be a very very valuable tool, far beyond what it is even 
>>now.

>Your following up to a sick troll like Giwer in this way shows far more
>about you than anything anyone could ever say about you. You know who he
>is, you know what he stands for, you claim to have changed, and you
>continue to pull shit like this. Sorry, "Reverend," I've given you the
>benefit of the doubt for a long time, but I'm not buying it anymore.

>References:

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/schoedel-ron/

>Followups set because your legal arguments are piffle.

	Do you holohuggers not yet realize that your approach to attacking me is going
no where?  In fact that it never has gone anywhere?  that all you are doing is
given credibility to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?  



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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:06 PDT 1996
Article: 70637 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Amen, Reverend, Amen.
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:06:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Distribution: inet
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 00:17:58 GMT, beaton1@server.uwindsor.ca (Lorne Beaton)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>	For what it is worth, McVay is one of the greatest thieves of copyrighted
>>material in the world if one goes by byte count.  

>What about compact-disc piracy? Up to 650 megabytes per unit.

	Good point, they are not even in the running.  But so proud of harming other and
taunting them with it ...  



=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:07 PDT 1996
Article: 70640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Amen, Reverend, Amen.
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:06:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 104
Distribution: inet
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 00:32:11 -0500, atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote:

>In article <52kbmv$km1@btc1.up.net>, Schoedel
> wrote:

>  :Using quotes of mine in your slide shows, Ken, could well be defined
>  :as fair use.  That is, if you're not distribuitng a book of my words
>  :at your shows.  That would be illegal.  See the difference?  Quoting a
>  :sentence of two is hardly illegal...a COMPLETE COMPILATION, if AGAINST
>  :THE WISHES OF THE COPYRIGHT OWNER, is cleary, undistputable, a violation
>  :of applicable copyright statutes.

>Not clear, nor indisputable. At least not in the U.S. The law is very much
>up in the air. If you'd like to get your name attached to a test case, by
>al means feel free; just don't delude yourself that it's open-and-shut.

	If ownership of the material were "up in the air" of what purpose to you imagine
there are copyright laws in the first place?  If there is ownership but not
control, then again, what purpose is there?  

	The only change in "fair use" in decades was to protect teachers and libraries
in the Xerox age as it was not much of an issue with mimeographs.  Fair use has
been very well defined over the years and "short excerpts as part of a larger
work" has covered footnoting and reviews for all of that time.  

	The introduction of a new technology does not cause all prior law to change.  

>For more information, you may also want to see the Berne Convention, the
>current binding international copyright agreement, at
>(http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html)

>=========== BEGIN QUOTED TEXT ==============
>From the misc.legal Copyright FAQ
>(http://www.aimnet.com/~carroll/copyright/faq-home.html) -- this is found
>in part 3.

>3.8) Are Usenet postings and email messages copyrighted?

>Almost certainly.  They meet the requirement of being original works of 
>authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression (see section 2.3).  
>They haven't been put in the public domain; generally, only an expiration 
>of copyright or an unambiguous declaration by an author is sufficient to 
>place a work into public domain.

>However, at least with Usenet postings, there are two doctrines which 
>probably allow at least some copying: fair use (see sections 2.8 and 2.9) 
>and implied license.

>[snip -- fair use clearly does not apply here]

>Proponents of the implied license idea point out that Usenet postings are 
>routinely copied and quoted, and anyone posting to Usenet is granting an 
>implied license for others to similarly copy or quote that posting, too.  
>It's not clear whether such implied license extends beyond Usenet, or 
>indeed, what "Usenet" really means (does it include, for example, 
>Internet mailing lists?  Does it include netnews on CD-ROM?).  If a 
>posting includes an express limitation on the right to copy or quote, 
>it's not at all certain whether the express limitation or the implied 
>license will control.  No doubt it depends on the specific facts.  For 
>example, was the limitation clearly visible to the person who did the 
>copying?  Was the limitation placed such that it would be visible only 
>after the person who did the copying invested time and money to get the 
>posting, believing it to be without any limitation?

>With private email messages, a copier who relies solely on the implied 
>license argument will probably lose, since it's hard to argue that by 
>sending the private message to a limited audience, the sender intended 
>for it to be copied and quoted.  For email messages to a public mailing 
>list, the implied license argument may still be sound.

>These theories are largely speculative, because there has been little 
>litigation to test them in the courts.  As a practical matter, most 
>postings, with a small number of notable exceptions, are not registered 
>with the Copyright Office.  As such, to prevail in court, the copyright 
>holder would need to show actual damages (see section 2.5).  Since most 
>of these cases will result in little or no actual damage, no cases have 
>been be brought; it's simply too expensive to sue for negligible damages.
>============ END QUOTED TEXT ===============

	All of this can be considered under the principle of "expected use."  The one
further expected use is in archives of usenet conferences.  An archive of course
is starts with the indiscriminant collection of everything in that conference.  

	This differs first in that the owner specifically granted a right to reproduce
at one point.  That is a clear indication of expectation of control of the
property.  

	Further this grant has been acknowledged by the spokesrat of the group
continuing the harm thus ownership and intent are not in question as both
parties agree to it.  Thus it has been agreed to by all parties that this
specialized collection differs from an expected use archive.  

	Here by acknowledgement of all parties involved the only issue is McVay and
company refusing to cease the harm they have acknowledged is being done.  




=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 15:19:07 PDT 1996
Article: 70652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange jewish attitudes about jews.
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:44:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 9
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Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, maintained that
anti-Semitism is not an aberration, but a natural and completely understandable
response by non-Jews to alien Jewish behavior and attitudes. 
=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 15:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 70656 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:41:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <52rsb5$8mt@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <52nipk$4ei@news.enter.net> <52pca3$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <32503948.5F1D@rio.com>
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:19:04 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>The Liar Gywar continues to beat a dead horse, along with his meat 
>about priests in Dachau. Since this turkey neither knows anything 
>about the subject matter, nor cares about how many priests or other 
>innocents were murdered at Dachau or anyplace else, he just mouths off 
>like an inmate in the nut house.


>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         Hey, dickless, when does the FBI show up?

>Don't stop peeking over your shoulder, fella. They are watching every 
>move you make, and so are "we!"

	You mean to say you folks are part of the ADL internal espionage organization?  

	You are a laugh a minute, Chuckle Fairy.  

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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:49 PDT 1996
Article: 70689 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Early Nazi/Zionist trade
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:06:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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The Transfer Agreement 

The centerpiece of German-Zionist cooperation during the Hitler era was the
Transfer Agreement, a pact that enabled tens of thousands of German Jews to
migrate to Palestine with their wealth. The Agreement, also known as the
Ha'avara (Hebrew for "transfer"), was concluded in August 1933 following talks
between German officials and Chaim Arlosoroff, Political Secretary of the Jewish
Agency, the Palestine center of the World Zionist Organization. 32 

Through this unusual arrangement, each Jew bound for Palestine deposited money
in a special account in Germany. The money was used to purchase German-made
agricultural tools, building materials, pumps, fertilizer, and so forth, which
were exported to Palestine and sold there by the Jewish-owned Ha'avara company
in Tel-Aviv. Money from the sales was given to the Jewish emigrant upon his
arrival in Palestine in an amount corresponding to his deposit in Germany.
German goods poured into Palestine through the Ha'avara, which was supplemented
a short time later with a barter agreement by which Palestine oranges were
exchanged for German timber, automobiles, agricultural machinery, and
other goods. The Agreement thus served the Zionist aim of bringing Jewish
settlers and development capital to Palestine, while simultaneously serving the
German goal of freeing the country of an unwanted alien group. 

Delegates at the 1933 Zionist Congress in Prague vigorously debated the merits
of the Agreement. Some feared that the pact would undermine the international
Jewish economic boycott against Germany. But Zionist officials reassured the
Congress. Sam Cohen, a key figure behind the Ha'avara arrangement, stressed that
the Agreement was not economically advantageous to Germany. Arthur Ruppin, a
Zionist Organization emigration specialist who had helped negotiate the pact,
pointed out that "the Transfer Agreement in no way interfered with the boycott
movement, since no new currency will flow into Germany as a result of the
agreement. . . ." 33 The 1935 Zionist Congress, meeting in Switzerland,
overwhelmingly endorsed the pact. In 1936, the Jewish Agency (the Zionist
"shadow government" in Palestine) took over direct control of the Ha'avara,
which remained in effect until the Second World War forced its abandonment. 

Some German officials opposed the arrangement. Germany's Consul General in
Jerusalem, Hans D_hle, for example, sharply criticized the Agreement on several
occasions during 1937. He pointed out that it cost Germany the foreign exchange
that the products exported to Palestine through the pact would bring if sold
elsewhere. The Ha'avara monopoly sale of German goods to Palestine through a
Jewish agency naturally angered German businessmen and Arabs there. Official
German support for Zionism could lead to a loss of German markets throughout the
Arab world. The British government also resented the arrangement.34 A June 1937
German Foreign Office internal bulletin referred to the "foreign exchange
sacrifices" that resulted from the Ha'avara. 35 

A December 1937 internal memorandum by the German Interior Ministry reviewed the
impact of the Transfer Agreement: "There is no doubt that the Ha'avara
arrangement has contributed most significantly to the very rapid development of
Palestine since 1933. The Agreement provided not only the largest source of
money (from Germany!), but also the most intelligent group of immigrants, and
finally it brought to the country the machines and industrial products essential
for development." The main advantage of the pact, the memo reported, was the
emigration of large numbers of Jews to Palestine, the most desirable target
country as far as Germany was concerned. But the paper also noted the important
drawbacks pointed out by Consul D_hle and others. The Interior Minister, it went
on, had concluded that the disadvantages of the agreement now outweighed the
advantages and that, therefore, it should be terminated. 36 

Only one man could resolve the controversy. Hitler personally reviewed the
policy in July and September 1937, and again in January 1938, and each time
decided to maintain the Ha'avara arrangement. The goal of removing Jews from
Germany, he concluded, justified the drawbacks. 37 

The Reich Economics Ministry helped to organize another transfer company, the
International Trade and Investment Agency, or Intria, through which Jews in
foreign countries could help German Jews emigrate to Palestine. Almost $900,000
was eventually channeled through the Intria to German Jews in Palestine.38 Other
European countries eager to encourage Jewish emigration concluded agreements
with the Zionists modeled after the Ha'avara. In 1937 Poland authorized the
Halifin (Hebrew for "exchange") transfer company. By late summer 1939,
Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary and Italy had signed similar arrangements. The
outbreak of war in September 1939, however, prevented large-scale implementation
of these agreements. 39 


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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:50 PDT 1996
Article: 70690 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Silly superstitious holohuggers think a curse is a death threat
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:29:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <52ro5e$s0n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <52m8ni$cnn@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52phm9$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:44:40 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># To this idiot a curse is a death threat.

> "Were you at my back in combat I would turn and kill you
>first as you can not be trusted to have loyalties to the US 
>above all others".

	Yes, a hypothetical situation you stupid little shit.  

>You posted this, Matty. In addition to being an outright
>lie and slander, it's also an explicit threat to kill me.

	The next time we are in the same combat unit, report it to the Sergeant.  

>But this is the Nazi way - when you can't win with reason,
>resort to such tactics.

	You mean collecting evidence of the stupidity of holohuggers?  Or collecting
evidence that they deliberately lie?  Which way would you like it?  


=====
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:51 PDT 1996
Article: 70691 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More jewish terrorism in France
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:32:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
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COMMUNIQUE, 960716:

 JEWISH FASCISTS SPREAD TERROR IN
                           PARIS

This morning, Tuesday 16, a group of young Betar activists has attacked a
bookshop in Paris. This bookshop, the Librairie du Savoir, is known to sell the
book of Roger Garaudy, . The book has attracted a wide controversy. The sale of
the book is perfectly legal and no restriction has been edicted by authorities.
The author may face a trial in the future but nothing has been decided so far. 

The Betar activists invaded the bookshop, beating up three persons. They
concentrated their savage assault on the shop owner, Mr. Georges Danesco, a
philosoph by training, and a political refugee from Ceaucescu Rumania. Mr.
Danesco was later taken to a hospital. He seems to suffer from a broken skull.
The Betar also spread red paint on the books displayed in the bookshop. 

The Betar has its origin in the Zionist movement initiated in the thirties by
Jabotinski who modelled his organization onto the Italian Fascist movement. For
a long time, the Betar people had close relations with the Fascist and Nazi
regimes (see L. Brenner, , 1983). In Paris, they are known to have assaulted
people or meetings they had decided to suppress. They are known to use violence
and enjoy official military training in Israel during the summer vacations. They
have attacked right in the middle of the Palace of Justice during several trials
of Prof. Faurisson. They are known to have participated in the assault of
another bookshop, la Vieille Taupe, and were severely beaten by the police. They
enjoy high level of protection and their agressions have never been condemned in
court. 

Physical attacks against persons and books combined with impunity through
political patronage, this is a fair description of street Fascism in the past.
As usual the defenders of human rights and intellectual freedom will remain
silent, out of fear, or out of agreement with these methods. 

LE TEMPS IRREPARABLE, Paris, You may wish to receive one or several of our
latest communiques. Send us the code and indicate if you wish a plain text or a
HTML version. 
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:52 PDT 1996
Article: 70692 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:42:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <52rse0$8mt@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <324d7dbe.25026795@199.0.216.204> <52ni9r$4ei@news.enter.net> <325108b8.1431620@199.0.216.204> 
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 07:42:40 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <325108b8.1431620@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:

>> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> 
>> >>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> >>  
>> >>      Looks like Giwer has done it again. He has come out and given the
>> >>  Holocaust Defense League an avenue of diversion from the real problem.
>> >>  
>> >>       What? No rabbis?
>> >>  
>> >>>>>
>> >       Since the commandants of the camps were specifically required to list 
>> >the Christian clergy in their camps (Document NS 3 425, Bundesarchiv Koblenz 
>> >issued December 31, 1943), why would expect rabbis to be listed?
>> >
>> >       Or are you just even stupider than you generally appear?
>> >
>> >       --YFE
>> 
>>          "(Document NS 3 425)" you say? 

>Yep, he says, Moran. Document NS 3 425. Whatsamatta, Moran, too
>embarrassed (and stupid) to admit you haven't a remotely credible reply? 

	Dickless suddenty can no longer speak for itself?  
	
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:53 PDT 1996
Article: 70702 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:15:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <52s5cq$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 30 Sep 1996 23:48:51 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  Matt  Giwer whines:
>>  On 30 Sep 1996 06:01:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  >	You forgot his criminal activities.  Giwer's response to those who 
>disgree 
>>  >with him has included such activities as disrupting the service of others with 
>mail 
>>  >bombs and criminal harrassment.
>  
>>  	Hey, dickless.  Your last claim is that a crime has been committed.  As 
>an
>>  officer of the court you are required to report it.  

>	Wrong, Matty poo.  A crime has been committed.  You committed it.  
>Actually it was two crimes.  Your first crime was Harassment by Communication, 
>a class three misdemeanor (18 P.S. 2710), when in response to a request 
>that you cease your harassment of me and my family you told us "I am tired 
>of your shit.  Fuck off."  Your second crime occurred two days later when, in 
>furtherance of the threat implied in your first criminal communication you 
>harassed me further with another e-mail that included your rather vile anti-Semitic 
>rantings.  This second crime was also Harassment by Communication now 
>compounded by "Ethnic Intimidation" (12 P.S. 4908) which elevates the crime to 
>a class two misdemeanor.

>	I suggest you talk to a lawyer.

	When do you report it according to your oath?  When does the FBI show up?  

	Speak up, dickless.  When is it going to happen?  I am getting tired of waiting.


	
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From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:53 PDT 1996
Article: 70705 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the four pieces of physical evidence
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:37:10 GMT
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On 1 Oct 1996 06:53:18 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Michael P. Stein (mstein@access5.digex.net) wrote:

>:     Your claim to know something about critical examination has not
>: withstood critical examination, silly person who thinks that lice can
>: scream.

>I scream, you scream, we all scream, for lice scream?

	Right from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  

	But that is what is expected from Jews.  

	

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"French bread makes very good skis" 

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 19:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 70720 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:46:52 GMT
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On 30 Sep 1996 20:16:07 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>	Yes, you are lying and you know you are lying. 

>No, Matt, you're lying, and not only do you know it, everyone on this
>newsgroup knows it.

>One thing piques my curiosity in your recent messages--all your references
>to the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION and how I and others are supposedly
>utilizing its rhetorical arsenal. Care to expand on this? To just what
>section of the PROTOCOLS are you referring? I can earn extra brownie
>points from the ZOG conspiracy if I show how faithfully I'm complying with
>the master plan, after all.

	I have made the observation.  It does not matter if it is identified.  It is a
forgery, remember?  The forger was merely very insightful into the holohugger
mentality.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 20:59:11 PDT 1996
Article: 70724 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 00:11:47 GMT
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:30:33 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>[To "rblackmore@juno.com", aka "jbelling"]

># I hate to be the one stating the obvious, but the British
># brought the water up from the river, and a river is usually
># a flowing body of water. Remove the immediate source of the
># pollution, and the water will go back to whatever it level
># of pollution was before the pollutant was introduced.

>The nazi-boy, and Giwer, are trying to pull a trick here.
>The corpses were in the water tanks in the camp, not in the
>river. The river water was fit to drink. Kramer simply didn't
>care enough to supply any water to the inmates. The Brits,
>using only equipment found in the camp, immediately set up
>a system to provide the water to the camp.


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were built
in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were
being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and then driven to the
building where the floor was electrified in a special way; there they were
killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 






=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 20:59:12 PDT 1996
Article: 70728 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer suggests cracking to suppress public archives
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On 1 Oct 1996 00:29:17 -0400, rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>In article ,
>Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>>Background:
>>
>>Ron Schoedel objects to the Nizkor website keeping public archives of
>>his public Usenet postings (circa 1994-96).  He claims that because the
>>postings are "out of context" -- which he defines to mean not having the
>>entire discussion thread in one file -- he is now taking back the
>>copyright privileges which he freely granted at the time of posting.  He
>>has no problem with Deja News's archives, he says (nor with Alta
>>Vista's, if their archives went back that far).

>As I understood it, Ron Schoedel has had a change of heart and now
>repudiates many of his earlier statements.  Perhaps both parties would
>consider this as a compromise; while the earlier statements are allowed to
>stand, Mr. Schoedel will have the right to state his _current_ opinions --
>and a link to same will be available on any web page featuring his
>earlier posts.

	He has withdrawn his original permission which was acknowledged by McVay.  

>I've e-mailed this suggestion to both Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Schoedel, in
>the hopes all involved can come to an understanding.

>>Along comes Matt Giwer, who takes the anti-Nizkor position.  His advice
>>to the beleagured Mr. Schoedel is that his "best bet is to take up
>>hacking and see if you can cease the harm being deliberately done to you
>>in that manner."
>>
>>In short, it is fitting that Mr. Giwer chose to cross-post this article
>>to alt.censorship.  When the day arrives that illegal system security
>>violations are seen as an acceptable response to the public archival of
>>public information, we're all in trouble.

>Matt Giwer is a 51-year old, alcohol-soaked love child of Ricardo Gonzales
>and Stephen Boursy.  I doubt he'd be capable of doing anything worse than
>small-scale mail bombing.

On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote:

>Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016
>Last-modified: 1993/03/22

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>             (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org)

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

>                THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
>                             Shimon Kanz


>A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors  who arrived from
>Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for
>3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to
>Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor.
>Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution
> over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of
>the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the
>prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered
>their heads.

>In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of
>Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

	Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.  

>                        SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

>"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating
>and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender
>existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which
>I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory
>throughout my life."

	It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a
meaningful crossexamination.  

>The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow
>accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly
>exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the
>bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and
>humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during
>the work in the camp Postak.

	"Stone him.  Stone him."  

	"Jehovah!  Jehovah!"

	Stoned?  Who biblical.  But maybe he really just inhaled.  

>The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the
>"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

>Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered
>automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her
>delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures?
>From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

	She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her
treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses.  

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

	Devilish laughter.  Melodrama testified to in court.  The evil always laugh as
devilishly as they can.  Ming the Merciless did it too.  

	Is any adult to take this seriously?  Of course not.  Only holohuggers believe
this sort of crap.  

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

>Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons.
>They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. 
	
	And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these
wagons, depending upon translation.  

And
>when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The
>devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing.

	Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine.
Real true holohugger fantasy life here.  And they could see the faces of pilots
>from  inside closed wagons.  This woman certainly has to be paid for this
performance.  

>On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons
>and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to
>begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

	Ah, yes, dancing.  Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt.  Very efficient these
Nazis.  

>Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her
>words shiver and only an echoe  is heard of those awful days which
>had become from day to day more terrible.

	A true whacko so far.  

>They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed
>wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the
>slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow
>took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one,
>neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers
>how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

	So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could
remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?  This person is truly
psychotic.  

>Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers
>were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the
>Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did
>not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring
>taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger
>nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon
>you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist".

	Certainly fingers were just pulled off.  

	Tell me the truth.  This was written by Stephen King, right?  

>The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and
>shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it
>will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

	But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it.  

	But here it is not a secret and they do know about it.  
	
	It is also an interesting speech.  Maybe it translates to a chant.  

	You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same
testimony.  

>                     THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS

>The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened
>from hunger and thrust  pains and agony and they started
>screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp.

>The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker"
>as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what
> to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and
>gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland,
>Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did
>not understand the meaning of their shouts.

	They did not understand the shouts.  Then where did the translation of the chant
above come from?  This witness?  

>At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel:
>"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle
>of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them
>immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other
>clothes here."

	Right, bundles of clothes.  Every found a bundle of clothes.  No one has.  
	
>Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the
>year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three
>women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his
>finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for
>profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his
>assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a
>laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and
>Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium,
>but she managed to get them out of the line.

	In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what
happened after that point.  The gassing all her fantasy.  

>The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their
>belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few
>craftsmen were allowed to survive.

	But she has no way of knowing.  

>                 SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

>We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German
>officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the
>laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were
>distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in
>her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you
>can".

	They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was
expanded.  

	Note here that the judge leads the witness.  A typical war crimes tactic.  

>The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She
>feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a
>Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while
>writing every word going out of her mouth.

>The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what
>she has seen with her own eyes. 
	
	Who is it that does not want hearsay?  

But how can she not tell about the
>shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. 
	
	That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it.  What in
the hell does the author think witness means?  

The heartbreaking
>shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning
>penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that
>they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

	But she was not raped.  Must have been real ugly.  

>Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday
>a transport arrived with thursty  people as it had been for several
>days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some
>to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was
>already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which
>served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the
>excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty  people of
>the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each
>other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was
>shot by the Germans.

	And all of this from what she did not witness.  Quite amazing  that this is
level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials.  Even more interesting
that crossexamination was not permitted.  

>                        HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

>The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor
>after the revolt are horrifying.

>They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last
>moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell
>about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven
>to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their
>own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the
>Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his
>arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and
>they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was
>supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place
>at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he
>ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks,
>called for the orchestra, gathered the  women and told them to sing and
>dance.

	Thank you, Steven Speilberg.  Jewrassic Pork lives.  

>This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered
>all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child.
	
	Eating sardines.  Are they not Kosher?  

>Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops.
>The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind  
>of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and
>guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and
>mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop  trees.
>Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and
>escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the
>heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same.

	Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news.  

>                      THE REBELLION COMMITTEE

>Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of
>the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To
>this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul
>Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided
>revenge.

	Excuse me.  It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this
and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them?  

>In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives.  How
>dangerous this was!  How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use
>in order to conceal this.  Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and
>courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the
>storehouses.  The participants of this operation were divided into
>groups.  The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group
>and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the
>guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt
>the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the
>guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the
>telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make
>passage ways.

	But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough.  

>              THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED

>The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death
>enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the
>prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well.
>Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened.
>Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood
>shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this
>day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the
>hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men
>and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves
>when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed
>now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into
>the trap looking for a hiding place.

	Sobibor gasse millions.  How can the world have missed this.  

>The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes
>and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews.
>Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans.
>Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called
>Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of
>some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew
>and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached
>the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living
>of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their
>intestines that they wished to die.

	They did not live off of them.  

>They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side
>to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission.
>It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good
>thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled
>to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall
>heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans
>flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you
>emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place."
>The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the
>question remained unanswered.

	Most likely they would have been shot for doing so.  That is the way the
holocaust works. 

=====

http://www.codoh.com/


---------------------------------------------------------------
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              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 20:59:13 PDT 1996
Article: 70734 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Schoedel states his case
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 01:32:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <52sguc$hk@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52f5vs$n5p@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <52h67d$5hm@btc1.up.net>  <52hs08$ba9@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <52kba3$km1@btc1.up.net> <324e0eb5.488338@news.awinc.com> <52lu4i$7gv@btc1.up.net>  <52mh1e$fen@btc1.up.net> <52oo9a$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52pdn1$3q2@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:70734 alt.politics.white-power:45485 alt.censorship:103516 comp.org.eff.talk:70488

On 30 Sep 1996 22:22:41 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	Do not bother playing the game.  You have made your case.
>>	What you are missing here is that they would have stolen your material
>>whether or not you ever gave permission and would have continued to do so
>>despite your objections.  

>	I think that the status of copyright of postings is still a very gray
>area.

	Even if it is, McVay has posted that he relied upon the original authorization
of Schroedel to carry them in the first place.  Thus he must honor the
withdrawal of that authorization.  

	As for the area being gray, it comes under expected use.  For example an author
may grant the right for his work to be published.  The expectation is that it
will be read and thus he can not claim those who read his book need his
permission to do so.  

	Similarly, in participation one acknowledges the expected use of the materials
posted.  That does not include one sided collection of one's materials.  

>>	They are common criminals.  Realize what you are dealing with.  

>	Are you going to sue, Matt?

	I am not a party to this action.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 20:59:14 PDT 1996
Article: 70726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer the Coward (Re: Israel provokes the end of peace)
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:33:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <52s6eu$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52f6q1$gpf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52m9dg$cnn@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52ooct$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:20:53 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I've asked Matt Giwer if he believes Ernst Zundel's claim,
>that he met German scientists who built the "secret UFO's",
>which flew into the inner earth.

>See

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/z/zundel.ernst/flying-saucers

>for some image and text files of Zundel's "research" into these
>"secret Nazi UFO's". Very funny stuff, and yet another proof
>that "Holocaust revisionists" are the craziest people on
>earth (inner and outer!). Zundel, do not forget, is the world's
>most well-known "Holocaust revisionist".

>Giwer still has not answered my question.

>There are only two possibilities:

>1) Giwer believes Zundel's claim that he met German scientists
>   who built the "secret UFO's", which flew into the inner earth
>   via a "hole in the South-Pole".

>2) Giwer doesn't believe it. In that case, he's advertising
>   the web site of a man he knows is a crazed liar.

>Which one is it, Matty?

	Since UFOs and gassing both exist upon the same sort of baseless testimony
without physical evidence, I choose door number 3, Monty.  Holohuggers are
crazed liars.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 20:59:15 PDT 1996
Article: 70732 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel provokes the end of peace
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:35:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <52s6i5$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 1 Oct 1996 01:16:02 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>:  	I was referring to the use of organized character assassination to 
>: discredit the messsenger.  

>It's not character assassination, Matt--it's character suicide.  It's
>not like we're making up this stuff about Zundel's lunatic Hollow
>Earth fantasies...

	Nor am I making up the lunatic steaming fantasies of holohuggers.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 22:43:36 PDT 1996
Article: 70743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Re Schoedel states his case
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 00:19:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Distribution: inet
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:70743 alt.politics.white-power:45489 alt.censorship:103527 comp.org.eff.talk:70491

On 30 Sep 1996 17:28:06 GMT, Schoedel  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>	What you are missing here is that they would have stolen your material whether
>>or not you ever gave permission and would have continued to do so despite your
>>objections.  
>>	
>>	They are common criminals.  Realize what you are dealing with.  

>Actually, only McVay and McCartney seem to fall into that mold, that I know of.  
>One real nice lady from Nizkor has written me a couple times.  Really surprised
>me to be honest, but this Annie is really quite a nice gal.  So, not all
>Nizkor folks are bad...just thought I should recognize somone who deserves
>recognition...

	Not Annie.  It it the woman who claims to be a co-webmaster that is
participating in this theft and deliberate harm to you.  

>>	More than that your constant protests are a source of amusement if not sexual
>>arousal for them.  You are giving them satisfaction by doing so.  

>Well, you have a good point, Mr. Giwer.  Thanks.  I will not be saying another
>word regarding my copyrights, on this or any other newsgroup, for the time
>being.  

	You might consider recounting the facts as well as McVay's posts agreeing with
your position in the net abuse groups.  Using the internet as a vehicle of harm
is certainly a form of abuse of it.  

>>Your best bet
>>is to take up hacking and see if you can cease the harm being deliberately done
>>to you in that manner.  

>Actually, even though hacking is not technically illegal, I do wish to stay on
>the ethical side of things, stand on the moral high ground,  and not stoop to
>McVayesque techniques.

	He has admitted that it is your material, you may do with it what you will but
of course only your material.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  1 22:43:37 PDT 1996
Article: 70751 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4,000,000 less 3,000,000 still leaves 6,000,000
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 23:45:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <52salv$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <3247f689.3588250@news.pacificnet.net> <3248afe3.26375621@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <52fmmd$efp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52o6nl$sqa@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <52p5h3$dnb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52p7kd$ouc@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 30 Sep 1996 19:38:53 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>:  	6 million appears to have some significance unrelated to WW II.  What 
>: that might be, I have not determined as yet.  It probably has some 
>: mystical significance. Perhaps I should be looking in the Kabbalah 
>: instead.  

>Perhaps you should double the tinfoil lining in your hat.

	Perhaps you should explain how the number winds up in a post WW I speech on the
holocaust and in an early 1944 letter by a person who had no possible way of
having any idea of any total.  

	It is clear the number has no relationship to events save by extraordinary
coincidence.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 08:16:58 PDT 1996
Article: 70761 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 00:07:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <52sbu4$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 30 Sep 1996 23:28:25 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   Matt  Giwer who illegally harasses those who prove him an idiot writes:
>>  On 30 Sep 1996 06:38:35 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  >> Mr. Giwer also
>>  >>  makes a good point when he adds that the British had to have provided 
>some 
>>  >special
>>  >>  filtering apparatus for the water to have been made drinkable.
>  
>>  >	That is, obviously, incorrect.  The British did no more than hook up the 
>>  >equipment at the camp.
>  
>>  >	Where did they get the water?
>  
>>  	Where did they get the electricity?


>	Obviously from the camp.  There are no reports that the electricity was 
>out.

	The camp was run from the generator for the region which had been shut down by
bombing.  There was no internal power generation at the camp.  

>	Now answer the question.  Where did the water come from?

	From the river by means of electric pumps.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 08:16:59 PDT 1996
Article: 70764 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ANNOUNCING THE IMPENDING ON-LINE CIRCUMCISION OF MY SON
Date: 1 Oct 1996 18:01:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <52rm8u$rdm@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on1-16.netcom.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 01  2:01:02 PM EDT 1996
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

As many of you may have noticed, I have recently become obsessed with 
penis-related events. Much of this has to do with my recent colostomy....In any 
case:
As part of my never-ending quest to complete the paupacity of my ignorance 
regarding jewish matters, I have decided to circumcise my son. Although he is 
22, I have conclusive proof that Jews may circumcise their sons up to the age 
of 56.

A full blow-by-blow pictorial report of my final descent into idiocy, including 
full colour photos of my performing the super-secret ritual sucking and 
spitting of blood, will be posted on my special website: 
http://www.babylonians.com.



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 08:17:00 PDT 1996
Article: 70765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 00:10:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <52sc3n$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 30 Sep 1996 23:34:04 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer the criminal tries to think, he botches the job:
>>  >>  mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  
>>  >>  "To restore the water supply we utilized the fire pumps and
>>  >>  hose which we found inside the camp to pump water from a river
>>  >>  to the camp itself".

>>  >>  "Did you find any reason why water should not have been provided
>>  >>  in that camp?"
>>  >>  
>>  >>  "I can think of none".
>>  >>  
>>  >>  Quoted from the testimony of Major Berney, "The Belsen Trial",
>>  >>  p. 54.

>>  	More to the point, unless the claim is that this was an old fashioned fire 
>pump
>>  that was hand operated, there was a requirement for electricity to operate it.
>>  Power stations and transformer stations are among the most important targets 
>for
>>  pilots.  

>	Matty poo's last set of lies did not work, so he tries a new one.  There 
>is no evidence that the electricity was out in the camp.

>	But we can already predict what the next set will be.  The United 
>Nations troops were trying to kill German soldiers.  Therefore, Kramer was 
>already dead when they arrived.

>	All this becasue Matty poo won't answer a simple question: where did 
>the British get the water?

>	Perhaps Matty poo should go back to what he does best: harassing 
>those who disagree with him.

	Dickless I have posted a simple question for a you many times.  When does the
FBI show up?  When are you going to file a formal complaint presenting your
evidence which will be taken in light of you being an attorney?  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 08:17:00 PDT 1996
Article: 70797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:56:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <52pftb$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 03:56:49 -0700, Brian Harmon  wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>> 
>> >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>[..]

>> >       That is nonsense.  People drank it.  They did not suffer.  Ergo it was
>> >  potable.  The British supplies the water by turning on the pumps.  Since the
>> >  "pollution" is a figment of your imagination it was a relatively easy process.
>> >
>> >       --YFE
>> >
>> >>>>
>> This is avoiding the issue.  

>It is spot on, Mr. Blackmore.

>You made the claim that Kramer could not have supplied the inmates
>with water from a nearby river as that water was polluted.
>(polluted with what, btw?)

	Back before you were born the EPA was started in the US.  Unbeknownst to
youngsters like you, rivers were full of shit, as in raw unprocessed human
waste.  Yes, Virginia, that is the way it was done in the good old days.  

	If you wish to go further in this you will find that the "polluted" status had
an annual cycle that depended upon the spring melt and a random pattern
depending upon the amount of rain.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 08:17:01 PDT 1996
Article: 70760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goyim are scum
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:33:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <52rrs8$8mt@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <3242af9b.3546836@news.pacificnet.net> <51vk0b$3uk@news.enter.net>   <32513F3E.4A3F@mail.internet.com.mx>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.flame:26886 alt.revisionism:70760

On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 08:56:46 -0700, Jordi Sod 
wrote:

>Actually, Goyim are not scum.  Revisionists are.

	Meaning you hold jewish revisionists are also?  

	

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 10:17:06 PDT 1996
Article: 103515 of alt.censorship
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Giwer suggests cracking to suppress public archives
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 01:15:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:96730 alt.censorship:103515

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:55:34 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Background:

>Ron Schoedel objects to the Nizkor website keeping public archives of
>his public Usenet postings (circa 1994-96).  He claims that because the
>postings are "out of context" -- which he defines to mean not having the
>entire discussion thread in one file -- he is now taking back the
>copyright privileges which he freely granted at the time of posting.  He
>has no problem with Deja News's archives, he says (nor with Alta
>Vista's, if their archives went back that far).

>It's pretty clear that what he objects to is really Nizkor's prominent
>display of some rather nasty things that he's said -- with links, of
>course, back to the context of at least the full article he posted.
>"God's word declares the death penalty for race traitors" -- he's a
>little put-off by being reminded that he has said such things.

>The discussion between Mr. Schoedel and Nizkor has essentially broken
>down, with the final word from Nizkor being, roughly, "either you're
>going to sue us or we're going to ignore you."

>Along comes Matt Giwer, who takes the anti-Nizkor position.  His advice
>to the beleagured Mr. Schoedel is that his "best bet is to take up
>hacking and see if you can cease the harm being deliberately done to you
>in that manner."

>In short, it is fitting that Mr. Giwer chose to cross-post this article
>to alt.censorship.  When the day arrives that illegal system security
>violations are seen as an acceptable response to the public archival of
>public information, we're all in trouble.

	There is nothing illegal here.  McVay has publically acknowledged the ownership
of the material. Schroedel would only be dealing with what McVay acknowledges
belongs to Schroedel.  

	In fact the trouble has already begun when the acknowledged owner is denied by
control of ownership by the person who acknowledges it.  It is compounded when
that person uses the refusal to comply with the rights of ownership that he has
acknowledged as a vehicle of public taunting of the owner with a clear statement
of an intention to continue harming the owner.  

	As to an archive that would come under expected use but McVay has already cited
a permission statement by the author as his authority to carry it originally.
So without even debating the meaning of an archive McVay has given that us as
his justification.  

	Debating archive, DejaNews is an archive and that is the only expected use of
material posted on usenet.  Once there has been a selection there is no longer
an archive in the internet sense.  

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 12:20:04 PDT 1996
Article: 70905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Continuing myths
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 17:18:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 266
Message-ID: <52u8ca$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 103.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	Despite appearances there is nothing unusual about myths being repeated long
after they are known false.  

	For example, every schoolboy in the US learns about the terrible winter the
revolutionary army spent at Valley Forge.  The troops died of starvation and
cold.  There was great suffering but great nobility in those suffering this for
their new country.  

	Even today you can visit Valley Forge and see a film showing the troops trying
to drill in hip deep snow drifts, huddled around small fires with even smaller
pots of food cooking, every image and most of the narration is in support of the
image of that terrible winter.  

	The only problem is that it was a mild winter and the worst of it was excessive
rain, not freezing rain.  There was not one death from starvation or cold.  The
deaths were from disease.  

	It turns out the story was created by Washington attempting to get more support
>from  the Continental Congress.  The myth is not corrected even by the curator of
Valley Forge.  The myth is still in the schoolbooks.    

	Compare this to the letter trying to get more support from the Zionists.  He
tells a horror story.  He is trying to get support.  A myth is started.  

=====

From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
To: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net
Received: from [199.70.221.119] by mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net
          (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAB2351
          for from  your safe homes? Or we who give our blood in the depths of 
Hell?

There is only one thing that may be said in your exoneration - 
that you do not know the truth. This is possible. The villain 
does his job so shrewdly that only a few guess the truth. We have 
told you the truth several times. Is it possible that you believe 
our murderers more than you believe us? May God open your eyes 
and give you heart to rescue in these last hours the remainder.

   [This is where the jew collaborator comes into another facet 
of the story.]  

Most important is that which I write about the bombing of the 
Auschwitz Crematoria and the bridges leading to them.

Such bombing can vitally delay the evil work of our slaughterers. 
And God who keeps alive the last remnant of Israel will show His 
mercy for which I pray. I pray as I write out of the sea of tears 
of the people of Israel. We wait God's help.

One from the Market who witnesses the woes of his people"

(Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandel, Exhibit of the Defence, no. 36, 
State Attorney v. M. Greenwald, District Court, Jerusalem, 
CC124/53)

During the Kastner case, Menachem Bader of the Jewish Agency was 
asked 'Did you receive this letter from Rabbi Weissmandel?" 

He answered:

"Letters like this came to us every day".

   [One can take that answer in many ways.  That such obvious 
fabrications came in every day or that Zionists ignored stories 
of the murder of jews every day.  It certainly points a rich 
source of impossible holocaust legend if we could find a 
collection those letters.  Certainly more prescient announcements 
of six million are expected.]  





=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 12:20:06 PDT 1996
Article: 70906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:30:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:53:57 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <52pi0j$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Matt  Giwer wrote:
>>
>>  You folks really are silly.  Constitutions can be changed.  Countries 
>>can withdraw from UN charters.  There is clearly no obstacle to making 
>>everything he proposes completely legal, which appears to be the only thing 
>>object to.  


> Constitutions are made by humans and can be changed by humans. No
>constitution - not even the German one - represents some immutable absolute 
>truth. And exception is those Islamic countries where the Sharia is the 
>foundation of the constitution. The Sharia is a part of Koran and is thus 
>given by God according to Islam.

	And if you read my comments on this issue about a month ago, I pointed out that
this could not happen in the US unless the "victims" agreed as we are too well
armed.  There was not one response to that.

	Even though our conservatives and liberals differ only in degree they do have
some differences.  Liberals are for elimination of private ownership of guns and
blatantly support jews as jews.  Conservatives are against gun controls and
blatantly support Israel.  

	As liberals do not understand the true basis of liberty as being the ability to
kill those who would take it, they have to pretend that what they see as "good"
is immutable.  


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 12:20:07 PDT 1996
Article: 70911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:33:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 13:08:21 -0700, Falk Heunemann 
wrote:

>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>> Only Germans can be genuine nazis.

>So how about Hitler. He was Austrian.

	Are you suggesting there is something intrinsic to the nation and the member of
that nation?  

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 12:20:08 PDT 1996
Article: 70914 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Amen, Reverend, Amen.
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:17:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 87
Distribution: inet
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On Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:11:45 -0500, atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote:

>In article <52rmpt$s0n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>  :On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 00:32:11 -0500, atticus@mindspring.com (Andy
>Walton) wrote:
> 
>  :>Not clear, nor indisputable. At least not in the U.S. The law is very much
>  :>up in the air. If you'd like to get your name attached to a test case, by
>  :>al means feel free; just don't delude yourself that it's open-and-shut.
>  :
>  :If ownership of the material were "up in the air" of what purpose to you   
>  :imagine there are copyright laws in the first place?  If there is ownership
>  :but not control, then again, what purpose is there?  

>Okay, Matt. In deference to you, I will use small words and type slowly.

	To repeat, Nizkor has stipulated not only ownership but also that the original
permission as the cause of carrying the material.  That permission has been
withdrawn.  It is quite clear that permission can be and has been withdrawn.  

	Thus the issues of ownership and control have already been stipulated by Nizkor
in favor of Schroedel.  

	In other words, this is an example of why attorneys advise clients to keep their
mouths shut.  

	It would be better if you would pay attention to the conference before you
attempt to look cute.  

>  :Further this grant has been acknowledged by the spokesrat of the group
>  :continuing the harm thus ownership and intent are not in question as both
>  :parties agree to it.  Thus it has been agreed to by all parties that this
>  :specialized collection differs from an expected use archive.  

>Whether Ron expected such use or not is beside the point. Whether it is
>within the scope of traditional Usenet practice, and is hence covered by
>the implied license widely accepted to apply to all Usenet posts, is the
>question. The courts may very well go Ron's way; the point of my posts was
>that it is not as cut-and-dried as you seem to believe. 

	However, the spokesrat did not invoke traditional usenet practice but rather the
permission of the author to carry.  If he had kept his mouth shut on the subject
that could possibly be raised.  At the moment it is too late to backtrack.  

>  :Here by acknowledgement of all parties involved the only issue is McVay and
>  :company refusing to cease the harm they have acknowledged is being done.  

>No. The issue -- legally -- is whether they are required by law to cease
>their activities, 

	McVay has already stipulated his reliance upon permission for originally
carrying it.  Thus he has bound himself by that permission.  

	Beyond that, having cited the permission ceasing to carry is the gentlemanly
thing to do, particularly for an OBC who should live to higher standards.  After
all, one would not like to think that BC is so slipshod in choosing those it
honors.  

whether any harm was in fact done, and whether Nizkor is
>in any way liable for such harm. Given the current state of the law, these
>questions are not easily answered. Certainly not by amateurs like you and
>I.

	The issue here is not harm in the least.  It is solely with regard to the
mutually agreed issue of permission.  The only court issue possible is to claim
the owner has no power to withdraw permission.  

	There are a lot of things that McVay could have posted that would have left him
a position before the law in this matter.  For example he could have claimed
that Nizkor would be harmed by its removal; he could have claimed he understood
the original permission to be irrevocable; he could have claimed it was only an
archive.

	But he did not do that.  He had to let his mean-spirited side take control and
post in effect that "I know you are right but I am going to continue to carry it
because it makes you mad."  That was a very dumb post to make.    

	

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 13:31:32 PDT 1996
Article: 70918 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goyim are scum
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:42:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <52udak$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <3242af9b.3546836@news.pacificnet.net> <51vk0b$3uk@news.enter.net>  <52kp4h$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <324FEF7F.38F1@tor250.org> <52q4k4$mdm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <997_9610011428@tor250.org>
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On 01 Oct 96 14:15:41, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: Goyim are scum] [30 Sep 96 23:50][*][0]*>


> MG>   You mean there is a problem conducting the primitive tradition
> MG> of ritual sexual mutilation on jews?

>An act that is practiced by billions, because it encourages and aids
>in cleanliness.

	So you hold they discovered the germ theory of disease 4000 years ago and shared
it will a few African tribes?  That excuse is as silly as the excuse for not
eating pork.  

>In your case, it would require microsurgery, so you were left with
>the material of no use.

	Ritual sexual mutilation is still a very primitive custom even though it appears
to have been adopted as an alternative to sacrificing the first born to Yahweh.


> MG>   You are clearly delusional.  And because of that you are
> MG> clearly jewish.

>Hmmmm! So now you claim to be Jewish?

>Is there no end to your delusions?!?

	You are the one who told the talith story.  

	Since you have such great archives, look up the wording of the jewish objection
to the nunnery at Auschwitz and get back to me about that "don't blame
chrisitans" line of yours.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 13:31:33 PDT 1996
Article: 70919 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goyim are scum
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:44:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <52ude0$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:06:09 -0600, bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva) wrote:

>In article <52rrs8$8mt@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 08:56:46 -0700, Jordi Sod 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Actually, Goyim are not scum.  Revisionists are.
>> 
>>         Meaning you hold jewish revisionists are also?  

>I'll second Jordi's statement and answer Gomer's challenge in the affirmative. 

>Remember, Matty poo.   *You're* the inconsistent one here.

	Another silly handle heard from.  

	But tell me, who revised the Treblinka story from steaming and suffocation to
gassing?  



---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 13:31:33 PDT 1996
Article: 70920 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the four pieces of physical evidence
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:45:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <52udg7$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 1 Oct 1996 19:52:13 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgwier@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>: On 1 Oct 1996 06:53:18 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>: >I scream, you scream, we all scream, for lice scream?
>: 
>: 	Right from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  

>Uh-huh.  It's right there, folks.  Right in the Protocols of the 
>Learned Elders of Zion, it says "I scream, you scream, we all scream
>for lice scream."  You could look it up.

>Actually, it's patently obvious what Matt's doing.  When he first
>started this current "Protocols" nonsense, he put in something about
>how the forgers really know how Jews think.  Now, he's racing from
>thread to thread, talking about the Protocols and waiting for 
>somebody to accuse him of asserting their reality.  Then, with
>wounded dignity, he will scrawl:  "You must be a very stupid Jew
>to think I said that."

	I have stipulated it is a forgery.  What more do you want?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 13:31:34 PDT 1996
Article: 70924 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 17:36:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <52u9e4$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 1 Oct 1996 19:53:49 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgwier@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>: >> >       Or are you just even stupider than you generally appear?
>: >> 
>: >>          "(Document NS 3 425)" you say? 
>: 
>: >Yep, he says, Moran. Document NS 3 425. Whatsamatta, Moran, too
>: >embarrassed (and stupid) to admit you haven't a remotely credible reply? 
>: 
>: 	Dickless suddenty can no longer speak for itself?  

>Moran can no longer speak for himself?

	You are so desparate to use the gradeschool technique you fail to note I am not
speaking for him.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 14:39:56 PDT 1996
Article: 70938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 19:19:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <52uffj$lqv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 2 Oct 1996 02:33:56 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 30 Sep 1996 23:48:51 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  >	Wrong, Matty poo.  A crime has been committed.  You committed it.  
>>  >Actually it was two crimes.  Your first crime was Harassment by Communication, 
>>  >a class three misdemeanor (18 P.S. 2710), when in response to a request 
>>  >that you cease your harassment of me and my family you told us "I am tired 
>>  >of your shit.  Fuck off."  Your second crime occurred two days later when, in 
>>  >furtherance of the threat implied in your first criminal communication you 
>>  >harassed me further with another e-mail that included your rather vile anti-Semitic 
>>  >rantings.  This second crime was also Harassment by Communication now 
>>  >compounded by "Ethnic Intimidation" (12 P.S. 4908) which elevates the crime to 
>>  >a class two misdemeanor.
>  
>>  >	I suggest you talk to a lawyer.
>  
>>  	When do you report it according to your oath?  When does the FBI show up?  

>	When the FBI investigates you is their concern.

>>  	Speak up, dickless.  When is it going to happen?  I am getting tired of waiting.

>	When did I state that I was going to file a criminal complaint?

	As an officer of the court you are obligated to do so.  	

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 15:02:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45557 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Giwer is wrong again.... Re: Amen, Reverend, Amen.
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 17:51:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Distribution: inet
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References: <52f5vs$n5p@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <52fakr$oea@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <52kbmv$km1@btc1.up.net>  <52rmpt$s0n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 13:31:02 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <52rmpt$s0n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> The introduction of a new technology does not cause all prior law to change.  

>As a matter of fact, the 'new' technology (which has actually been around
>since the late 60s) does raise a number of questions with respect to
>copyright law, which is why the courts are unsure as to how to apply
>current legislation. In the United States, a man who was indicted after it
>was discovered that he was operating a pirate FTP site had all charges
>dropped when it was revealed that the law could not be properly applied.
>In the United States, proposed laws to govern the so called NII (a
>misnomer because the NII is actualy a global medium) have yet to come into
>effect, but they do recognize the inadequacies of current copyright to
>deal with potential copyright infringement on the Internet.

	Excuse me but ... If the person was indicted then is was for an act considered
criminal.  That the charges were dropped did not in any manner invalidate the
copyright.  And any matter we are discussing was clarified in law around 1979.  

>In any event, your constant whining about copyright merely continues to
>demonstrate that you are little more than a self admitted troll:

>         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
>         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
>         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
>         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
>         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."

>                      - Giwer, Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>

>If you have a problem with copyright infringement that you think is
>actionable, take action (ie get yourself a lawyer and file a civil suit,
>or, if the lawyer tells you to get a life, do it yourself.) Constantly
>whining about how your copyright is being infringed, but refusing to take
>action, does not help your case (which, of course, is non-existent to
>begin with.)

	You should be paying more attention to the conference.  This discussion is about
Schroedel's copyright which has been publically acknowledged to be Schroedel's.
It is not clear what matter there might be for a court to decide as the
offenders have stipulated every point that would find them at fault.

	


=====
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http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 16:20:27 PDT 1996
Article: 70958 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B @ Belzec
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 22:09:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <52updq$pcp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52chhn$5mg@lex.zippo.com>  <52j7bg$9i2@lex.zippo.com>  <52rulu$52c@lex.zippo.com>
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 20:09:29 GMT, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <52j7bg$9i2@lex.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>>wrote:

>>> The book in question is obviously wrong when it says that Zyklon B
>>> was used at Belzec.  The book was published in 1994, so the
>>> Edelheit's have no excuse for including this wrong information in
>>> their handbook and dictionary. So I stand behind my statement:
>>"Consistency is 
>>> proving to be elusive."

>>As to the book being "obviously wrong when it says that Zyklon B was used at 
>>Belzec," I agree 100 perent. As to your selecting _one_ rather obscure
>>"handbook," authored by two rather obscure authors, and then claiming that
>>"consistency" is proven to be "elusive" is simply you being disingenous. 

>I'm glad you agree. 
>Obscure?  I go to the library, grab some books, and read them.  I look
>for consistencies and inconsistencies in relation to other books I've
>read. 
>I did not say: proven. I said: consistency is_ proving_ to be elusive,
>and it is.  Many books have _major_  inconsistencies pertaining to
>basic questions such as: the use of Zyklon B at Belzec. 
>When I find  glaring mistakes,  that book gets eliminated as a
>reference source.

	The more you go into this the fewer consistancies you will find.  The longer the
report the few consistencies you will find. 

	If you keep looking you will start to find the impossible.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 17:01:04 PDT 1996
Article: 70977 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer suggests cracking to suppress public archives
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:06:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <52uspb$227@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52f5vs$n5p@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <52oo9a$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52q6mt$hj6@panix2.panix.com> <52t4fg$gg4@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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On 2 Oct 1996 00:09:36 -0700, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Followups to alt.revisionism.

>rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) writes:
>>As I understood it, Ron Schoedel has had a change of heart and now
>>repudiates many of his earlier statements.

>With all the feeling and sincerity of a used-car salesman offering you an 
>extended warranty, yes.

	The sincerity is not relevant.  Ownership and permission are the only points
under discussion and they have been stipulated in favor of Schroedel by Nizkor.


>>Perhaps both parties would
>>consider this as a compromise; while the earlier statements are allowed to
>>stand, Mr. Schoedel will have the right to state his _current_ opinions --
>>and a link to same will be available on any web page featuring his
>>earlier posts.

>But of course. Everything Mr. Schoedel is posting is automatically
>archived. As soon as he posts a web page, Nizkor will link to it.

	An archive of only one person and out of context is not an expected use NOR did
Nizkor claim that reason.  Instead Nizkor chose to stipulate its guilt in this
matter.  

>>>In short, it is fitting that Mr. Giwer chose to cross-post this article
>>>to alt.censorship.  When the day arrives that illegal system security
>>>violations are seen as an acceptable response to the public archival of
>>>public information, we're all in trouble.
>>
>>Matt Giwer is a 51-year old, alcohol-soaked love child of Ricardo Gonzales
>>and Stephen Boursy.  I doubt he'd be capable of doing anything worse than
>>small-scale mail bombing.

>He's a bit more than that, but as a rule, any threat from a man of Giwer's
>advanced state of general incompetence is bound to be idle. 

	You mean something like the posts of dickless?  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 17:46:53 PDT 1996
Article: 70982 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Rev. Schoedel makes his case clearly...listen up
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:21:56 GMT
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Lines: 117
Distribution: inet
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:58:14 GMT, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Sep 1996 05:36:00 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:



>#But in the larger sense, why does someone funding by the US DOD use the 
>#1B Systems internet connection to host Nizkor and why does the company
>#permit it and does it deduct that charge from its billing to DOD?  And if
>#not, why is it permitted to continue?  

>#It is a matter of felony contract fraud.  

>Matt, did you stop taking your thorazine again?


>Read the idiocy of revisionists and UFO believers

>http://www.webcom.com/~zundel

	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 19:29:08 PDT 1996
Article: 70994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unsolicited email
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:48:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 1 Oct 1996 02:38:18 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 30 Sep 1996 05:45:27 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  >	Want to bet Matty poo?  The message was sent to me and my family. 
>>  > It is obscene.  It is harrassment.
>  
>>  >	You are a criminal.
> 
>>  	I am awaiting the FBI.  You have to report the crime as an officer of the 
>court.

>>  	You are looking very silly and in violation of your oath as an attorney.  

>	Says who, Matty poo?  You?

	Is you state so different that an officer of the court does not have to report
crimes?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 19:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 71001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.origins,news.admin.net.abuse
Subject: Re: The Crimes of Matthew Giwer
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:47:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <52v2n4$r64@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52pn4n$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52q1gv$ol0@news.enter.net>
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On 1 Oct 1996 03:00:47 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) gets in deeper:

>>  >	Then sue me Matty poo.  You are guilty of criminal harrassment, Matty 
>>  >poo.  I want every lurker who even thinks that that there might be an iota of 
>>  >honesty in your post what you are and how you operate.
>  
>>  	The crime has to be reported, dickless.  You license to practice law is on the
>>  line if you do not.  

>	Let us review the bidding to this point:

>	1.  on March 23, March 27, and July 23, 1996.  Matt Giwer e-mailed me.  On 
>the first two occasions I requested that he send me no more e-mail.

	In response to email exchanges that you initiated.   

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 19:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 70995 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!nntp.zit.th-darmstadt.de!fu-berlin.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: test
Date: 2 Oct 1996 17:47:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <52u9r4$rc6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on7-26.netcom.ca
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Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Oct 02  1:47:16 PM EDT 1996
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

test



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 20:22:40 PDT 1996
Article: 71009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 22:12:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <52upk6$pcp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <32500622.1212414@news.awinc.com> <52tgb8$ksr@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 2 Oct 1996 10:32:08 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>>  On 30 Sep 1996 02:09:25 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  
>>  #This is avoiding the issue.  The rivers of Europe are and have been highly
>>  #polluted for decades now.  If the British did not make the water potable,
>>  #perhaps many prisoners died as a result of drinking this water.  Please
>>  #provide the proof that the British did not use filtering equipment.
>>  
>>  Giwers rules: He who asserts must prove.
>>  
>>  The two of you have made the assertion. YOU prove it.

>Try reading an encyclopedia.

	It is rather amazing how much these people don't know.

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 20:22:40 PDT 1996
Article: 71011 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Flying Saucers
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 22:09:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <52updn$pcp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 249.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

	After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of advanced science and
technology.  It was known that the US did not have access to all of it as a good
fraction fell into Soviet hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

	Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some prototypes of saucer
shaped flying machines.  They were no more stable that US attempts to build such
a shaped flying machine.  

	To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was largely terra
incognito at the end of WW II.  

	In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in the area of Mt.
Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is almost exclusively a military
activity.  

	Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken seriously and the US
military opened an investigation to determine if such disks, quickly dubbed
flying saucers, were a military threat to the security of the US.  Further one
of the possible origins considered was that they were the perfected versions of
those found in Germany.  

	In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by the military.  They
were being reported worldwide.  Connections were made between them and the foo
fighters of WW II.  It would have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

	Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the US into WW II.  A
country considered composed of scientific geniuses had provided the primary
talent to build the bomb that had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a
perfected flying machine was trivial.  

	It took nearly ten years before the military determined they were not a threat
to US security and assigned a lieutentant the exciting duty of responding to
civilian UFO investigations.  And in those ten years the military went from "we
don't know what they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of course one of
their most telling arguments was the complete lack of physical evidence despite
Roswell.  

	Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German scientists and quite a
few political types were unaccounted for and, again, the Soviets were not
participating in the accounting process.  Nor were South American countries
volunteering information.  

	Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the secret "bases" were
in South America.  

	Clearly the US military was seriously considering the possibility they were the
devices of German scientists but more likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by
Russians solved the "secret base" problem for the military.  

	Now into all of this came people putting serious considerations together in
different ways.  German scientists, disk shaped (almost) flying machines,
reports of seeing disk shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places
were all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

	Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  What did they use
for power?  They were working on nuclear power, were they not?  And, no, it was
conclusively known that all such research had been uncovered as there was always
what was captured by the Russians.  

	A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since Jules Verne and it is
unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science could rule out a hollow earth but
not undiscovered caverns in the earth.  How big they might be was anyone's
guess.  And there was enough not known about the interior of the earth at the
time to leave a lot of possibilities.  

	In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the holocaust will
appear a few decades from now, was a serious consideration as a possible
solution to the puzzle.  It was certainly not much of a variation from a
possibility the US military was considering.  

	Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally directed towards
the US military but in either case it is only in hindsight and in complete
ignorance of the times.  



=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  2 20:22:41 PDT 1996
Article: 71014 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Details on the Treblinka gas chamber
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 17:24:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
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Bomba's Testimony 

One of the most memorable testimonies about Treblinka presented in Shoah, the
nine-and-a-half-hour Holocaust film by French Jewish film maker Claude Lanzmann,
is that of Abraham Bomba. He told how he and other Jewish barbers cut the hair
of the naked Jews who were about to be gassed. They worked inside "the" gas
chamber (he always spoke of one chamber), which was "around four by four meters"
(about 12 feet by 12 feet). Bomba also reported that "140 or 150 women," with
children, as well as 16 or 17 barbers, were inside this small room. In addition,
there were benches where the women sat while their hair was cut, as well as two
or more German guards. 

The barbers had to leave the chamber for five minutes while the victims were
gassed, Bomba said, and it took just one minute to clear out the 140 or so
corpses, and clean the floor and walls, before everything was ready for the next
batch of victims. (note 30) 

Bomba's moving testimony, which conservative writer George Will called the "most
stunning in this shattering film," is simply not credible. 



=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:36:58 PDT 1996
Article: 71019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Re Schoedel states his case
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 22:49:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Distribution: inet
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On Wed, 02 Oct 1996 09:51:21 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <52scl6$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On 30 Sep 1996 17:28:06 GMT, Schoedel  wrote:
>> 

>> >Actually, even though hacking is not technically illegal, I do wish to
>stay on
>> >the ethical side of things, stand on the moral high ground,  and not stoop to
>> >McVayesque techniques.
>> 
>>         He has admitted that it is your material, you may do with it
>what you will but
>> of course only your material.  

>Mr. Schoedel:

	You should pay attention.  You addressed it incorrectly.  
 
>Although I believe your attempts to rehabilitate your reputation may be
>admirable, please give me some supporting facts or evidence that hacking
>is a "McVayesque" technique.
> 
>Ken McVay has archived your public posts.

	That was not his justification for continuing to do harm.  Nor does what he has
done satisfy the meaning of archive on the internet under expected use.  
 
>When has he hacked your computers?

	As all parties have agreed to Schroedel's ownership and therefore control of the
material in question, hacking to exercise the control is quite reasonable.  
 
>Also, if you are serious about your reputation, I'd stay far away from a
>vile little troll like Matt Giwer, and endorse, RIGHT NOW, your disgust at
>his anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, and idiocy.

	The technique in operation again.  
 
>Do you endorse Matt and his methods?

	Do you endorse the use of the property of another contrary to permission?  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:36:58 PDT 1996
Article: 71021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Re Schoedel states his case
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:19:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Distribution: inet
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:51:08 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         More than that your constant protests are a source of amusement if not sexual
>> arousal for them.  You are giving them satisfaction by doing so.  Your best bet
>> is to take up hacking and see if you can cease the harm being deliberately done
>> to you in that manner.

>Oh oh.  Matt went and did it again.

>Section 430 of the Criminal Code of Canada states:

>(1.1) Every one who commits mischief who willfully 

>(a) destroy or alters data; 

	In this case Nizkor has stipulated that it is the property of Schroedel 

>(b) renders data meaningless, useless or ineffective; 

>(c) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use of data; or 

	Nizkor has stipulated that its use is unlawful.  

>(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful
>use 
>    of data or denies access to data to an person who is entitled to
>access thereto. 

	And Nizkor has stipulated it is not entitled to access to the data.  

	As you can see this law is inapplicable.	

>(5) Everyone who commits mischief in relation to data 

>(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a
>term not 
>    exceeding ten years; or 

>(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. 

>That would apply to anyone caught hacking Nizkor.  However, in
>Mattie-poo's case
>the applicable section is 22 of the Code, "Person Counselling Offense". 
>By telling
>someone they should commit an illegal act Matt has himself committed a
>crime 
>under Canadian law.  As the offense, if it occurred, is directed against
>a Canadian
>citizen and a computer residing in Canada, the law applies.

	If the hacker only deals with the material that Nizkor has stipulated is his and
under his control then, as you can see, there would be no crime.  

	And I suggest that some day you learn the difference between, I advise you, and,
you would be better advised.  There is a whole world of difference.  	



=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 71032 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:59:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <52uvrr$120@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <3241e9bc.4234058@news.pacificnet.net> <51vf4d$bab@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <324451a5.8164545@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3247ea8f.522336@news.pacificnet.net> <32488f84.18086610@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3251de9f.11578794@199.0.216.204> 
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:47:40 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3251de9f.11578794@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:

>> jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>> 

>[snip]

>> >I did deal with the substance of your post. I drew the conclusion that
>> >you seem to believe that because the Soviets did not ask technical
>> >questions which would have answered the lame objections of denier
>> >idiots forty years later the Holocaust must not have happened.
>> 
>> No, they should have asked them then, in order to see if they
>> were getting honest accounts, or to get a more thorough picture. It
>> had nothing to do with peoples questions forty years later. It had to
>> do with then.

>Ah, but such questions _were_ asked back then, Moran. "According to expert
>evidence by Dr. Roman Dawidowski, professor at the Academy of Mining and
>Metallurgy in Cracow, the average number of bodies cremated within
>twenty-four hours in the thirty ovens of the two largest crematoria was
>about five thousand. The figure of three thousand could be reached in
>smaller Crematories IV and V. This total allows a break of three hours in
>every twenty-four hour period to allow for deslagging the generators and
>because of other, smaller stoppages caused by constant use. Similar
>numbers wer egiven as evidence by eywitness Sonderkommando members Henryk
>Tauber and Alter Feinsilber, and also by Stanislaw Kankowski. KL-PMO,
>p.134." (_Death Dealer_, p.45fn.) 

>[Moranic(tm) drivel snipped]

	Are we going back to the impossible rates again?  Since when does one mining and
metallurgy with the ability to estimate crematoria?  But I do know of an
engineer who supports creationism.  Does that count?  




=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 71038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer outconfuses himself!!!
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:38:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <52ud23$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 1 Oct 1996 20:09:20 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:04:15 -0400, A Gryn  wrote:
>>>Matt, there are several urologists in your area that can help you with
>>>implants. The mouse-sized one may be a tight fit, but it should work.
>>	You mean there is a problem conducting the primitive tradition of
>>ritual sexual mutilation on jews?  

>	Whoa!!! Giwer's claiming to be Jewish??!??!!?!?! ;-) ;-)

	Alec was the one who told the story about my showing up in Temple wearing only a
talith.  

>>>As for blaming Christians, it was in the name of Christianity that the
>>>Holocaust was committed, but Jews don't blame Christians.

>> You are clearly delusional.  And because of that you are clearly jewish.  

>	According to GiwerLogic, anyone who is delusional is Jewish. Hmmmm....
>Giwer is clearly delusional ergo.... ;-) ;-)

	You mean you missed the wording of the jewish objection to the nunnery at
Auschwitz?  I probably have it on file some place if you missed it.  It was to
the effect that it was an affront because of all jews had suffered at the hands
of christians.  



=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 71045 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:38:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <52uukv$ifi@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:18:07 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>	Remember these were War Crimes Trials.  The War Crime of interest was losing the
>>>>>war, sort of a negative crime but certainly punishable by death.  
>>
>>>>If this particular case examined at a War Crimes Trial, surely you can
>>>>tell us which one.
>>
>>>>[cue the "Jeopardy" theme]
>>
>>>	Giwer, I think Mr.Morris may have us here. Maybe it wasn't a
>>>trial. In that case all one would have to do is maintain the intial
>>>critique and just change the references to any trial. Then maybe
>>>Mr.Morris would come back and try to deal with it more directly. 
>>
>>I did deal with the substance of your post. I drew the conclusion that
>>you seem to believe that because the Soviets did not ask technical
>>questions which would have answered the lame objections of denier
>>idiots forty years later the Holocaust must not have happened.

>	No, they should have asked them then, in order to see if they
>were getting honest accounts, or to get a more thorough picture. It
>had nothing to do with peoples questions forty years later. It had to
>do with then.
>	Well you might get the idea you can do or undo the Holocaust
>story with one account, but I wouldn't be so naive. Actually you
>probably do think you can confirm the Holocaust story with one
>account. 
>	 
>>My purpose otherwise was to demonstrate, yet once again, Matt Giwer's
>>appalling ignorance of the history he pretends to comment upon. And I
>>have succeeded yet once again.

>Now he's over to Giwer.
> 
>	He's got you Giwer. This is real relevant information for his
>point. Proclaiming himself victor is the part that really solidifies
>it all. This is empiricism at it's highest level.

	He lies, holohuggers swear to it.  It is rather amazing that in only a few
months of serious efforts I can find so many contradictory and impossible claims
about their holocaust and these life long students of history could not find
them.

	But then they do believe that reading books is reading about what really
happened rather than reading the author's opinion of what happened.  It is an
elementary fallacy and it serves them to invoke it.  

>>Apparently his handlers are content to keep him in ignorance,
>>satisfied that he sows confusion. The goal is not knowledge but the
>>sowing of doubt in order to make people hate Jews in which project he
>>is their witting and willing pawn.

>	"...sowing a doubt in order to make people hate Jews ..." 
>	Better let Giwer handle this one.

	It would appear he believes jews are not so actively disliked is because of the
holocaust.  

	It is rather the holohugger love of being disliked that leads them to the absurd
conclusion that the holocaust has anything to do with like or dislike of jews.  

	Who was it who said, "Mommy, mommy, he called me a kike.  Stop him before he
turns me into a lampshade."  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:45:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <52v2ja$r64@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <3244185d.2238743@news.pacificnet.net>  <52m7be$cnn@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52pb74$n30@bell.maths.tcd.ie> 
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:57:31 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) writes:
># mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>## And as you know, the writing does not describe what
>## is happening in the picture.

># What _does_ the writing on the blackboard say, then?

>Since unterschardummkopf Giwer obviously can't answer,
>I will. The writing on the blackboard says: "The Jew is
>our worst enemy. Beware of the Jew!".

>This is what young German children were subjected to
>in the classroom.

	Thank you for the translation.  It is now clear you were bringing up a red
herring.  It says nothing about what is happening in the picture.  

	If you want to read something into their faces, perhaps they are being
disciplined by a jewish teacher in England for writing that on the board in 1920
in their German language class.    

	There is nothing in the picture to decide between the caption you claim and the
suggestion I make.  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: dig up the bodies and burn them
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:28:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <52v1if$gvg@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52ffqe$efp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <324b843b.44396347@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <52p497$dnb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3250cd20.31293508@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 08:00:35 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:41:38 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>>	Ever wonder why the story always includes digging up the bodies and burning
>>>>them?
>>
>>>>	You see jews do not permit even autopsies as the bodies must be complete (save
>>>>for the foreskin.)  
>>
>>>>	So simply killing and burying was not evil enough for true evil.  Therefore the
>>>>bodies had to be exhumed and destroyed by fire to prevent complete bodies from
>>>>facing Yahweh at the judgement.  That made the Nazis pure, demonic evil.  
>>
>>>>	And for a superstitious lot of eastern Europeans this was enlightened thought.  
>>
>>>Nothing to do with Giwer's juvenile "pure evil" strawman at all. At
>>>Birkenau bodies were dug up and cremated simply because they stank.
>>
>>	Excuse me, but just who authorized you to add to the legends?  The only claims
>>posted from "genuine, official Nazi sources" have been in reference to getting
>>rid of the evidence.  Of that is under the false assumption that cremation would
>>leave no evidence.  
>>
>>	Sorry, but your "steenking jews" fabrication is your own invention, contrary to
>>the established stories.  On the other hand, perhaps you notice strange smells
>>in cemetaries.  And do not forget lime was added to the burial pit.  Also do not
>>forget that the pit has never been identified.  

>Pits, plural. They have been identified both at Auschwitz and
>Treblinka. As Franciszek Piper notes in his article in Gutman and
>Berebaum's _Auschwitz: Anatomy of a Death Camp, p. 179n.:

>   In 1965 the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum commisioned Hydrokop,
>   a chemical mining company, to carry out geological tests to find
>   the location of the incineration pits and pyres. Hydrokop bored 303
>   holes up to 3 metere deep at Auschwitz II-Birkenau  and found
>   traces of human ashes, bones, and hair at 42 sites. Documentation
>   and diagrams of all the holes and their distribution are at the
>   Conservation Department of the [Auschwitz State] Museum.

	If you will go back and take a look at what I wrote about you will see why this
has no relation to the original pits as there would be no human ashes where
bodies were dumped in an limed.    

	Got anything else?  

>The mass graves are where they are supposed to be: in various
>locations from the northwest corner of the camp to Kremas IV and V and
>behind the gas chambers known as the Bunkers. As Mark Van Alstine
>previously posted, "One can see, on page 5 of the  _Auschwitz
>Chronicle_, the locations of the mass grave and incineration pits,
>which are clearly marked."

	You really should pay attention to the conference.  It has already been agreed
by the holohuggers that the gas chambers and the Kremas were on the same plot of
ground.  It is unclear what you are talking about here.  

>As to the stench of the bodies behind the Bunkers, the order for their
>removal apparently came from Himmler during a visit to the camp.

>Unfortunately you will not be able to verify the reference as it is in
>a book: Pressac's article in the _Anatomy_, to be precise.

	You are completely off track.  I am referring to the story in which the first
gas and shooting "victims" were buried in a local stone quarry with lime added.
The story goes they were later dug up and burned.  THOSE pits.  

	They have never been found.  Given the likely geology of the area it is unlikely
there was even a stone quarry.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:03 PDT 1996
Article: 71139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 22:43:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <52urei$k6s@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52np4o$94u@news.enter.net> <52tfn6$ksr@juliana.sprynet.com>
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On 2 Oct 1996 10:21:26 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>  >   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  
>>  >  And I will say it again:  Kramer was a victim of circumstances.
>>  
>>  	Kramer was a murderer.
>>  
>>  	Where did the British get the water to supply the camp?
>>  
>>  	--YFE
>>  
>You're avoiding the issues.  By the way, I answered your question about the water.
>See my current posts.

	On the other hand if he thought the water was OK to drink but was not and he had
given it to them he would simply be condemned for different reason, knowingly
giving them polluted water to drink.  That would certainly prove his "evil"
nature.  

	Keep in mind that to holohuggers EVERY Nazi was pure evil.  It is a completely
mindless hatred.

	Also note that while they will deny mindless hatred any word that, as you have
done, points out the official record results in the lie being given to their
denial.  They clearly believe the Nazis were pure evil as they will not let one
statement that mitigates the slightest guilt of even one of them pass.  

=====

	Perhaps the river was not pure enough by German standards but only to British
standards.  Perhaps the instructions were to drink the water but only with
purification tablets but there were not enough of them or the instructions did
not translate well or the inmates distrusted anything in uniform.  

	(The one investigator I know did report that many of the people he interviewed
were in abject fear of the investigators because of their uniforms.  Who knows
what the rumors would have called water tablets.)

	The number was something like 40,000 died of disease after it was under British
control.  What did kill them?  The water is an obvious possibility.  

	There are a lot of possibilities but the only thing posted regarding the British
testimony in no way supports what these holohuggers are saying.  

	I am a bit reminded of Tom Daschle's statement that the Republicans met with
with industry to find ways of dirtying the air and water.  The response was
straightforward.  The Republicans and industry all drink the same water and
breath the same air. 

	One does have to ask what the camp personnel were drinking and eating for that
matter.  Neither subect has been explored save for the fat sex-for-food women.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 21:26:16 PDT 1996
Article: 71473 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.webspan.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Rosenbergs again
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 21:13:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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KGB files reveal clue that broke British
               spy ring
               By Michael Smith 

	Every so often there are people who continue to try to claim the Rosenbergs
were innocent.  

	Electronic Telegraph, 2 Oct 96

                     The name's Bond, Vladimir Bond

               THE intercepted KGB messages that detail Moscow's dealings
with
               the British spies Kim Philby, Donald Maclean and Guy Burgess
were
               released by GCHQ yesterday.

               The move was forced on the Cheltenham spy base by the
               Americans, who released on to the Internet the results of
Operation
               Venona, the top-secret project to decipher Moscow Centre's
               communications with its foreign stations.

               The files placed in the Public Record Office at Kew
yesterday include
               the vital clue that led to the collapse of the Cambridge spy
ring. They
               also name another Cambridge-based spy, Dr Theodore Hall, an
               American who worked inside the Manhattan Project, the secret
               programme to develop the atom bomb. He was never prosecuted
               and still lives in England.

               But it is Maclean, recruited by Philby while he was still a
Cambridge
               student, who emerges as the jewel in the KGB's crown. In
April 1944,
               as a rising star in the Foreign Office, he was posted to the
               Washington embassy.

               The deciphered messages show he gave the Russians a wealth
of
               information on Anglo-American relations and their secret
post-war
               agreements, including the exchanges of atomic secrets.

               Since his wife Melinda was pregnant and living with her
mother in
               New York, Maclean had the perfect excuse to go there every
               weekend to pass the information on to his KGB control, away
from
               the routine surveillance of diplomats in Washington.

                   MI5 narrowed down those names to a handful of
                   people who would have had access to the
                   top-secret exchanges between London and
                   Washington

               It was not until 1949 that the Venona team managed to break
into the
               messages from New York to Moscow containing the information
               provided by Maclean, who was identified by the cover name
Homer.
               Philby, who was posted to Washington as an intelligence
liaison
               officer shortly after the messages were deciphered,
described how
               the FBI concluded that any one of 6,000 people might have
been
               Homer.

               "It had so far occurred neither to them nor the British that
a diplomat
               was involved, let alone a fairly senior diplomat," he said.
"Instead, the
               investigation had concentrated on non-diplomatic employees
of the
               embassy."

               But slowly, MI5 narrowed down those names to a handful of
people
               who would have had access to the top-secret exchanges
between
               London and Washington.

               Then in April 1951, the Venona cryptanalysts found the vital
clue in
               one of the messages. For part of 1944, Homer had had regular
               contacts with his Soviet control in New York - using his
pregnant wife
               as an excuse. The names had been narrowed down to just one -
               Donald Maclean. Tipped off by Philby, who had access to the
               Venona material, he fled to Moscow with Burgess.

               Dr Hall is the Cambridge scientist named in the files as the
KGB's
               main spy in the Los Alamos complex in New Mexico, where the
US
               atomic bomb was developed. He refused to comment last night.
He
               came to Britain in the 1950s after US intelligence
discovered that he
               was Mlad, the man who along with his British colleague Klaus
Fuchs
               gave the Russians the technical details of the so-called
Manhattan
               Project.

                   Fuchs, a German emigré who became a naturalised
                   British citizen, became a KGB spy in 1941

               Because he never confessed, the authorities could not
prosecute him
               without giving away the extent to which the KGB messages
were
               being read. Dr Hall, who is now 70 and suffering from
terminal cancer
               and Parkinson's disease, still lives with his wife Joan in a
               semi-detached house in Cambridge.

               Within the university, where he worked until the mid-1980s,
he is
               renowned for his pioneering work on biological X-ray
microanalysis,
               which allows scientists to work out the presence of various
elements
               within living matter. Hall was a brilliant man who was
already a
               Harvard graduate when, at the age of 19, he was recruited
first by the
               Manhattan Project and then, almost immediately, by the KGB.

               As well as providing technical explanations of the atomic
processes,
               Dr Hall gave Moscow a complete list of universities doing
work on
               the Manhattan Project so the KGB could seek out other agents
within
               them.

               The files show that he and Fuchs were far more important
than the
               more famous Julius Rosenberg, cover named Liberal, and his
wife
               Ethel, who were both sent to the electric chair. Fuchs, a
German
               emigré who became a naturalised British citizen, became a
KGB
               spy in 1941.

               He confessed and in 1950 was sentenced at the Old Bailey to
14
               years' jail. In the mid-1950s he was allowed to go to East
Germany,
               where he died in 1988.

=====

 
              UK News 
                                          Electronic Telegraph 
              Monday 30 September 1996
                                        
                                                   Issue 495
            
               GCHQ to release Cold War files 
               By Michael Smith 


                     British agents gutted ditched Russian plane

               GCHQ will become the first of Britain's intelligence
services to
               release Cold War files this week after its American
counterpart
               forced its hand by placing its versions on the Internet.

               Neither MI5, the security service, nor MI6, the secret
intelligence
               service, have released any records, although MI5 is known to
be
               considering which ones it could make public. GCHQ, based in
               Cheltenham, is renowned for being more secretive than its
fellow
               British agencies, both of which have become more open in
recent
               years, even appointing officers to talk to the media.

               But last year's decision by the National Security Agency,
GCHQ's
               American counterpart, to release the top secret documents
has left it
               with little choice but to follow suit.

               The GCHQ files relate to a secret, American-led project to
decipher
               the communications of the KGB's Moscow Centre with its agent
               runners around the world. The Venona project, as it was
known, was
               instrumental in breaking the Cambridge spy ring and in
identifying
               the spies who gave Moscow details of the Manhattan project
to
               develop the atomic bomb.

               But it is not clear if the message that led to the
identification of
               Donald Maclean and sparked his flight to Moscow with fellow
traitor
               Guy Burgess is among those to be released into the Public
Records
               Office at Kew on Wednesday.

               Maclean, who had been recruited by Kim Philby while studying
at
               Trinity Hall, Cambridge, had become a rising star within the
Foreign
               Office and in 1944 was posted to Washington.

               The messages are thought to cover only the mid to late 1940s
which
               would exclude the KGB message that led to Maclean being
identified
               as the top Soviet agent Homer. Although it was sent to
Moscow
               Centre by the KGB's New York station in 1944, it was not
deciphered
               until 1951. Even then, like most of the files that will be
released, it
               could only be partially deciphered.

                   Russians know that the Americans and the British
                   were reading the KGB's ciphers

               Code-breakers at Arlington Hall, Virginia, the US equivalent
of
               Bletchley Park, began working on the KGB messages in 1943
but it
               was not until July 1946 that they succeeded in breaking a
small
               portion of one message.

               The atom spies Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were exposed by
the
               Venona code-breakers as was Theodore Hall, the Soviet spy
Mlad,
               who gave the Russians information on the atomic bomb. Mr
Hall, now
               70 and living in Cambridge, was never prosecuted for fear of
letting
               the Russians know that the Americans and the British were
reading
               the KGB's ciphers. It is this factor that is believed to be
behind
               GCHQ's reluctance to release the files.

               The KGB messages were enciphered using the allegedly
               unbreakable, one-time pad system which uses a book of keys
in
               which each is torn off and destroyed once it has been used.

               In theory, limiting usage in this way prevents any
recognisable pattern
               being built up and prevents decryption. But the NSA releases
               stressed that although their success against the one-time
pad was
               frequently put down to the recovery of a Soviet code book,
it in fact
               came purely as a result of "sweat of the brow" analysis.
"There was
               no assistance from lost, discovered, or
battlefield-recovered Soviet
               code books during the years in which the main analytic
               breakthroughs were made."

               The disclosure of the success of the Venona project showed
that
               such ciphers were more vulnerable than had previously been
thought
               and might well discourage some of GCHQ's targets from using
them.

               The affair is reminiscent of the Government's refusal until
the 1970s
               to allow disclosure of Bletchley Park's success against
Germany's
               Enigma cipher machine because it was still being used by a
number
               of GCHQ's targets.

               29 September 1996: Code-breakers come clean
               13 July 1995: CIA declassifies papers to show Rosenbergs'
guilt
               9 October 1995: Stalin's Fifth Man from Cambridge spy ring
dies


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct  3 21:26:17 PDT 1996
Article: 71474 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec, the MOSSAD SUCKS
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 21:13:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <531abv$dp8@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52l8b8$o07@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52ou6v$smi@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <52q6i1$mdm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52rs7b$3p7@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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On 1 Oct 1996 20:42:35 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>On 30 Sep 1996 17:58:07 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>>	Those idiots, those incompetant assholes, were not able to tell the
>>>>USS Liberty was not an Egyptian ship.  What a shitass bunch of incompetants
>>>>you murdered on behalf of.  
>>>	1. Giwer assumes that Mossad identified the ship. 
>>	I do not.  I said the pilots of the IDF planes.  

>	I assumed you meant Mossad, as the subject line mentions Mossad and
>you do not specify anyone else as the "incompetant assholes".

>	I think that was a reasonable assumption based on your article.

	It is not only a false assumption it was an unnecessary assumption.  

>>>	2. If the USS Liberty was attacked as the result of misidentification,
>>>then it would not the be the only case of that happening: USS Vincennes
>>>shot down an Iranian Airbus by mistake, `friendly fire' incidents in the Gulf
>>>War, etc.
>>	But of course there were so many close passes and radio identification
>>by the IDF planes as a US ship that we know they correctly identified the
>>Liberty.  

>	From what I remember of the investigation of the Vincennes incident,
>the Iranian Airbus was initially misidentified by the AEGIS system onboard.
>The crew discussed what to do, but in the meantime the AEGIS system corrected
>itself and identified the aircraft as a civilian one.

	Identifying an aircraft has nothing to do with identifying a ship.  

>	A quick check at http://www.sbexpos.com/interop/vegas/hands_on/neumann.html refers to "Human error and confusing and incomplete Aegis interface".

	And if you had looked into what that was you would have found it was
related to the IFF interface and based upon being associated with the wrong
return.  

>	Does this mean the programmers and users of the AEGIS system were
>"incompetent assholes"? After all, they did kill an awful lot of innocent
>people by mistake.

	It means you do not know enough about the subject to participate in the
discussion.  Radar classifies by behavior at best.  It does not classify by
return signature. 


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:08 PDT 1996
Article: 71562 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: for the great unwashed
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 07:01:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	Zionism is indistinguishable from the Nazi platform of 1933.  I have posted
that platform and the Zionist postion.  

	Anyone disagreeing it invited to post quotes from both and show the
difference.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:09 PDT 1996
Article: 71563 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beatles join Nizkor Project!
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 07:01:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
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References: <52f5vs$n5p@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <52s593$63q@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <5314iv$d5b@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 00:21:42 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>> >"Paul is dead" was really a ZOG conspiracy, right?
>> 
>> No - it's code.

>Actually, McCarthy is a clever misspelling of McCartney.  Originally
>my song was called "Petty Lane" and was a light-hearted tirade against
>shallow conversations in alt.revisionism:

>   Petty Lane, the Giwer spams another customer
>   We see the Moran ranting on about goyim
>   And then the Huber man rushes in
>   With a bogus name - very strange!
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical 
appliances were built in for mass extermination of people. Under 
the pretext that the people were being led to the bath-house, the 
doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the 
floor was electrified in a special way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:10 PDT 1996
Article: 71564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jack Ryan vs Alec Grynspan
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 07:10:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
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	This is an interesting juxtaposition.

	On one hand we have the James Bond/Jack Ryan intelligence officer image.

	On the other hand we have Alec Grynspan. 

	The limits of the former are only those of the fiction writer.

	The limits of the latter are only self annointed self aggrandizement to
impress the masses.  

	Consider how silly AG appears with his Mossad claims.  
=====
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http://www.codoh.com/
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 71732 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Add this one to the "Discovery Channel"
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 23:01:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 4 Oct 1996 09:41:11 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Now, I would expect that Mr. Gandhi will now do the right thing and
>inform the editor of the above magazine that their figures are HOPELESSLY
>WRONG.  Mr. Gandhi offered to do just such a thing in a previous commun-
>ication with me, when I asked him if he would inform agencies that they were
>publishing erroneous information on the Holocaust.  Let me make this easy for
>him.  Here is their address and the person to contact:

>Michael E. Haskew, Editor
>World War II Magazine
>Cowles History Group
>Cowles Magazines Inc.,
>602 S. King St. Suite 300
>Leesburg, Va. 22075

>Be sure to get back to us after you set them straight.

	I am certain they will welcome his input.  Most likely by calling him a
nazi.  After all, who but a nazi would revise history?  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:33 PDT 1996
Article: 71738 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 23:15:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 04 Oct 96 10:34:08 GMT, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander
Baron) wrote:

>In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

>>             Giwer the Liar Posts a Testimony
>>                   Which Does Not Exist
>>                   -------------------- 
>> 
>> 
>> # In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
>> # trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and
>> # Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000
>> # Jews,  representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been
>> # gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Since there was no such mass gassing in Belsen, Giwer is 
>> trying to make it appear as if a witness said there was such 
>> gassing, in order to "prove" that this witness was lying.
>> 
>> Giwer has yet to provide the name of this witness. But
>> he can't. Note that his only response to this reasonable
>> request is to spam the group by reposting something totally 
>> unrelated. 

>I have already explained this; Giwer is correct when he says such testimony
>was given at Belsen. The confusion here is that the Belsen Trial also
>covered Auschwitz as you know; this may have been an honest mistake. I suspect
>that he is referring to Dr Bendel, whose estimate although far short of 80,000
>in one night - 24,000+ - is still ridiculous. The Law Report on the Hoess trial
>says the maximum capacity for the entire camp was 60,000 a day, so if Giwer did
>lie he is in good company.

	On the other hand, if I had made up a name, Keren would not be able to tell
the difference.  But even so, I do not use holohugger tactics.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:34 PDT 1996
Article: 71764 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:49:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 104
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 13:37:49 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger Skok)
wrote:

>In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:

>[Kreiberg: "Unconstitutional, who, me? - NO way!"]

>[skok: "Ethnic cleansing is surely unconstitutional according to the Danish 
>           constitution."]

>> I have just bought a copy of the Danish constitution and can find no 
>>references to this. Furthermore even if there were something like that I 
>>have still not acted unconstitutional. I have said that I would create
>>legal foundation before I started to carry out the program. You see
>>a majority of the voters can change the constitution by a referendum.
>>If a majority want the absolute monarchy back or something else this is 
>>possible as long as you follow the prescribed rules. I have talked about
>>creating ethnic homogeneity in a legal manner. I think that even in Germany
>>it is legal to suggest changing the constitution or a specific legislation
>>by *legal* means.

>This shows several things: 

>You probably don't understand the concepts used in the constitution
>very well. Ours does not contain an explicit prohibition of ethnic
>cleansing. It just mentions "human dignity" - Die Wuerde des Menschen - 
>as the highest good that all the force of the state has to defend. It is
>from that dignity that the other articles are derived. Ethnic cleansing
>would violate that dignity and is therefore unconstitutional according
>to the German Grundgesetz. 

	1)  Change the interpretation

	2)  Change the constitution 

	What is so hard about that?  

I am quite convinced that Denmark has got
>a similar clause in its constitution or that its practical application
>at least would render ethnic cleansing unconstitutional.  

	3)  you have no idea of the constitution you are discussing.  

>Secondly, you've got obvious trouble understanding abstract concepts
>such as keeping the present and the future apart. The fact, that
>you are aiming for a legal road to oppressing the ethnically foreign
>people in Denmark, and you would therefore have the Danish constitution
>changed to allow ethnic cleansing does have no bearing at all on the
>illegality of your aims under the current Danish constitution. 

	4)  It is absurd to claim that trying to change a constitution is
unconstitutional.  

>Thirdly, our Verfassung at least, contains two articles considered 
>immutable. 

	Then it is not a constitution.  My question is which body superior to the
people prevents it from being changed?  

The first, protecting that human dignity I mentioned above,
>and the 20th, which prescribes the republican form of our government.
>There is no legal way of changing them, other than a complete dissolution
>of our state. 

	All laws flow from a constitution.  Changing the constitution is above the
law.  

>We are supposed to have the right to rising against such
>a dissolution. Of course, a rather theoretical clause, since the civility
>of our society would have to have eroded to the point where the entire
>Verfassung was not worth much anymore, before such a clause could
>be invoked. 

	In fact it is because you have let yourselves be disarmed that you folks
can not stop such a thing from happening.  

>But it has been included to stress the point that the
>power of the state is justified only inasmuch as it is used to further
>that human dignity of ours. If the state begins violating it (like the
>Third Reich did), citizens have no obligation to follow the laws and
>orders of the state any longer.

	And if you were armed you could make it stick.  Unarmed, you don't have a
chance.  

>So, your aims to legally make the Danish constitution inhumane and
>legally violate the UN charta of human rights, 

	The UN has no power to enforce the charter.  That is why it is a worthless
piece of paper.  

is and will remain
>unconstitutional and on top of that it is and will always be inhumane
>and brutal, no matter how nicely you might put it in legalese. Thanks
>for being so upfront about your aims.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:34 PDT 1996
Article: 71765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where has he gone
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 138
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On 1 Oct 1996 17:22:11 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 	Anyone seen dickless Yale lately?  

>

>That's sweet, Matt.  Before we can continue this charming conversation,
>however, we need to clear up a few things, towit:  the many, many
>statements you've made on a.r. which appear to be untrue, and for
>which you've refused to provide evidence.  There are way too many of
>them to take care of in one sitting; why not start with the handful
>I've appended below?

>Newcomers will want to watch this thread carefully; 

	Newcomers will do better to read the kind of thing holohuggers believe.  


    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:35 PDT 1996
Article: 71766 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Plunder of the Victims, I
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <534bf3$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:04:34 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>Letter from SS-Brigadefuehrer Frank to chief of administration of 
>>Auschwitz, concerning the utilization and distribution of "evacuated" 
>>Jews, 26 September 1942
>>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 256-258]
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------

>	Doesn't say anything about Jews, or the source of whatever.
>New comers to alt.revisionism will notice soon enough that things are
>always Jewish. The Holcaust story tellers say 11 to 12 million people
>were exterminated by the Germans, but you will not see accounts about
>what happened to their stuff. We don't even know about this stuff
>listed here.
>	The poster here, Mr.Keren usually, if not always posts his
>evidence for the Holocaust in part. As here. He has "e)", "f)" and so
>on, but no 'a), b)', etc.  
>	You'll be seeing lots of this sneaky stuff from Holocaust
>dependants.

	It is a sad dependency.  It would be good for us to start a support group
for recovering holohuggers.  Perhaps we could enlist Saturday Night Live to
mention it.  

	The first thing is to develop the 12 steps.  Then to get them to face their
dependency on the holocaust.  This will give them something to fill their
lives that would be so empty without a holocaust to establish identity and
self worth.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:36 PDT 1996
Article: 71767 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If the holocaust is not a fake,then why is Ken McVoy and Nizkor so chicken shit to deabet Winston Smith ?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 151
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 19:57:47 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:46:50 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/dachau/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/natzweiler/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/nordhausen/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/ohrdruf/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/thekla/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/maidanek/images
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/images
>> 
>>         Obvious babbling.

>No no no, the obvious babbling at Nizkor can be found at

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/at-the-height-of-wit.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/free-speech-0796.html
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/stein-michael/lie-30000-kcal.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/as-blue.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/email-96-06.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/dishonest-text-deletion.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/e/edeiken-yale/giwer-fraud.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca

    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:37 PDT 1996
Article: 71768 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: euthanasia murders?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <534bei$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52ooac$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325195bb.15067718@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:09:00 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>	Euthansia was NOT a war crime yet, as the jew traitor Keren points out, they
>>were considered as part of the war crimes tribunal.  

>If you believe that the Nazi euthanasia program involved only persons
>who were euthanized voluntarily, you will believe anything. And you
>do.

	It was still not a war crime.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 71769 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Plunder of the Victims, V
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:22:04 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>Report by SS-Grupenfuehrer Globocnik listing items plundered
>from the Jewish victims of "Operation Reinhard" and delivered to
>various Nazi organizations. Attached is a detailed list, prepared
>by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Wippern on February 27, 1943.
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. V, p. 704-709]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Valuation of Jewish belongings delivered up to 3 February 1943
> 
>6. Textiles
> 
>462 boxcars rags
>253 boxcars feathers for bedding

	But it does not say if the victims were plucked before or after.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 71770 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Giwer comes from
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:11 GMT
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:47:48 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
>R.L. Power) wrote:

>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>[snip -Like anybody _cares_ what the Giwer-boob writes...]
> 
>> Geez, Matt, I didn't think you could get more pathetic. Insulting war
>> veterans. I guess their existence somehow offends you. I wonder why.

>Naaaah, the Giwer-boob is offended by _everybody_ with a shred of decency.
>First because he has no decency whatsoever, and second because he's a
>Nazi-idolizing untermensch. 

>And insane, of course. That goes without saying. 

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:39 PDT 1996
Article: 71771 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Rev Bobbie Sch*ber
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:53 GMT
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On 30 Sep 1996 23:26:27 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>[non-existent h*bergroup "alt.fan.enst-zundel" removed]

>In article <52pked$ni4@daily-planet.nodak.edu>, 
>dwelch@badlands.NoDak.edu (Dwight R. Welch) wrote:

>>Bobby h*ber (NO@thank.you.e-mail.bombs) wrote:

>>:   Notice they do not catolog communists,who are the world biggest 
>>: murdering slime on earth. Notice the communist style of thinking they 
>>: have and the constent ad hominem attacts, some of them clearly on 
>>: children and young adults.

>>?? as a socialist myself, i'm curious what attacts on children have been 
>>made?

>      Matt Giwer attacked an autistic child and his mother here.

	Another example of the crude lies spread by the holohuggers, the tactics of
the forged Protocols again.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:40 PDT 1996
Article: 71772 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:23:39 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	           The Twelve Year Grace Period
>		In with the new books, away with the old.

>	              Random House Dictionary,
> "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".

>========================================================================
>		
>	According to some accounts, the reason the previous numbers of
>those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3 million higher
>than the current 1 million is because the Soviets mis-calculated the
>numbers of people that could be cremated in the ovens.

>	How the Soviets went about this ciphering that resulted in a 300
>percent over estimate is not detailed in Holocaust accounts.

	Nor is it explained why anyone would use a calculation of a potential
maximum number in place of a determination of the actual number.  

>	The other account of why the old number was so far off is because
>of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
>inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
>something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
>found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)

	Which begs the question as to why the IMT received so few non-jewish
reports.  We are also left to wonder why the jew, non-jew breakout of the
total was not in the literature prior to the change.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 71773 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a minor point
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	To accept the current holocaust story and legends means we have to accept
that four nations in complete charge of Europe and with all the resources
they needed prosecuted hundreds of capital cases based largely upon false
and incorrect information.  

	Next we have to accept that a handful of writers were able to come up with
the correct events and numbers over the following 50 years without the
access and an infinitesimal fraction of the resources.  

	It is difficult to determine whether the above or the holocaust is the
least believable.
=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 71774 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The great Krema mystery
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:32 GMT
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	Why so many Kremas? why so many ovens? if they were not intended to be
used?  

	Rather some different questions.  

	Why is a garbage disposal so over designed that it can get rid of about
1000 lbs a day?  

	Why is a dishwasher to over designed that it can process some 20-30 times
the normal usage?  

	The answers are simple, time.  People have no interest in round the clock
work of dealing with lower capacity equipment.  

	And the Kremas had a time critical problem also.  Without refrigeration
they had about two days to dispose of a body.  
=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 71775 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Giwer comes from
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 20:05:25 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Charles R.L. Power wrote:
>> 
>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> >       Get over it, Fairy.  You ain't got jack shit between your legs and it
>>  has been
>> >clear to everyone from the first time you posted here that you were lying about
>> >your war record.
>> 
>> Geez, Matt, I didn't think you could get more pathetic. Insulting war
>> veterans. I guess their existence somehow offends you. I wonder why.

>Probably due to feelings of inadequacy on his part.  After all, if
>he did graduate in 1974 that means he was eligible for the draft in
>70 or 71.

>So tell us, Matt, where'd you serve?

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca

    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 71776 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Plunder of the Victims, IV
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:21:19 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

	These jews were very meticulous people but they were smelly.  

>Report by SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl to Himmler's office, February
>6 1943, listing items plundered from Jewish victims and delivered
>to various Nazi organizations
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. V, p. 699-703]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>1. Reich ministry of economics
> 
>Men's old clothing without underwear       97,000 sets
>Women's old clothing without underwear     76,000 sets
>women's silk underwear                     89,000 sets
>                                         Total 34 cars
>Rags -           400 cars, 2,700,000 Kg
>Bed feathers -   130 cars, 270,000 Kg
>Women's hair -   1 car, 3,000 Kg
>Scrap material - 5 cars, 19,000 Kg
> 
>2. Office for Germanization
> 
>Men's clothing:
> 
>Pants -        62,000
>Shirts -       132,000
> .
> .
>Shoes -        31,000 pairs

	For each pair of shoes each man had two pairs of pants and slightly over
four shirts.  
 
>Women's clothing:
> 
>Coats -        155,000
>Dresses -      119,000

	The women had more coats than dresses ...

>Panties -      60,000
>Brassiers -    25,000
>Underwear -    22,000
>Kerchiefs -    85,000
>Shoes -        111,000

	but one pair of shoes for each dress.  But must have stunk to high heaven
in having more dresses than underwear.  But then their men would not notice
as their men had no underwear.  

>                                               211 cars
>[Many more organizations and items cited]
> 
>                                    Grand Total 825 cars
> 

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 71777 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOAH Uses ONLY Primary Sources
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:07 GMT
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On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:38:31 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern)
wrote:

>Once upon a time, in a land not too far away, a young troll by the name of
>Matt the Giwerdly Lie'n trolled upon a thread I had started about The
>Shoah Visual History Foundation.  Shoah is a project in which the main
>goal is video taping eyewitness testimony of the Holocaust.  For those of
>you with a section of brain missing, the Holocaust was the systematic
>extermination of Jews and any other groups not liked by the Nazis between
>about 1939 to 1945.  The thread was an effort to educate those not
>familiar with the project of its operations and mission statement.

>Well, this Lie'n troll stated that it was a well known fact that
>historians do not and never have relied on eyewitness testimony, as it was
>unreliable... especially testimony that was over 50 years old.  In my
>humble attempt to explain to him that in the cases of severe trauma, the
>memory actually improves with distance from the traumatic event and with
>age, a phenomenon well documented throughout the psychiatric and criminal
>justice communities, the Lie'n troll, just as a 6 year old would do,
>called me various names.

>Today, I am here to post a final refutation to the Lie'n trolls lies.  The
>particular lie is that of Lie'n's statement that historians do not rely on
>eyewitness testimony.  The Giwerdly Lie'n is, of course, 100% incorrect. 
>Eyewitness testimony is the number one primary source sought by all
>historians.  When one is taking an oral history, one must be careful that
>their subject is telling the truth, which is especially difficult is there
>is only one subject.  However, in cases like the Holocaust, there are
>hundreds of subjects on every possible side of the event (Victims and also
>nazi) whose stories all verify one anothers.  Therefore, Giwerdly Lie'n,
>you are once again wrong.  And once again I am forced to ask, "What is it
>that makes YOU able to claim expertise in the field of history?"  As a
>historian, I am quite interested in the answer.

>The End!

	Hardly.  Off hand I do not remember making any particular comment about
historians on the subject.  I observed rather that after so many years they
would be fed back the composite legends.  

	For example, although steaming and suffocation were the most common stories
of the means of extermination at Treblinka those stories are not told by
any present survivors or historians for that matter.  

	You have also missed the dozens of conflicting and impossible stories told
by these people which is contrary to your claim of corroborating stories.  

	You really should pay attention to the conference.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 71778 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOAH Uses ONLY Primary Sources
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 11:03:59 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern)
wrote:

>In article <3250a0bc.206899418@news.cris.com>, x@x.com (x) wrote:

>*Kate , *the end!* would have been enough darling....
>*No one cares about your personal problems, that's what psychologist
>*are for.
>*Try alt.sci.psychology.inner-child.wounded
>*They have many people, like yourself, with deep seated inner-childlike
>*wounds that need healing.
>*I feel your pain Kate....

>Personal problems?!?  Where in the hell are you getting THAT from?  Left
>your reading comprehension skills at the door, eh?  Here's a tip... don't
>follow-up to a post if you can't think of anything intelligent to say. 
>Obviously, my proving Giwerdly's lying has struck a raw nerve in some...

	Self congratulations is a symptom of what he is talking about.  

	You did not pay attention to what I did post.  You have not paid attention
to the conference.  

	Because of those failings you created an issue that was not under
discussion and posted false information in support of your invented issue.


	And now you are "proud" of getting it all wrong.  

	If you had disagreed with my response you would have 1) replied at the time
and 2) addressed what I posted.  Rather you let it ferment so long that you
got it all wrong.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 71779 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 15:50:35 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article ,
> wrote:

>> As a person who had at least a moderate degree of respect for the
>> professionalism that Nizkor presents on their site (though I am on the
>> other side of the debate),
>> I was shocked to see the sort of degrading (to us all) language that they
>> utilize when speaking of Matt Giwer. Why is this?
>> I just decided to take a
>> look at alt.revisionism for fun, but I think it's time to get out of the
>> sandbox. They flinging more than sand at us. 
>> 

>"Why" you ask, lpauling? Because:

>The Giwer-eunuch is, as far as I can determine, 


    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  

o
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 71780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bloated, Besotted, Toad, Troll
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:43:18 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>Yes folks that Bloated, Besotted, Toad, Troll has reappeard and how
>did the Bloated, Besotted, Toad, Troll do it?? Simple the Bloated,
>Besotted, Toad, Troll , continually is on the look out for an
>unsuspecting ISP, one unfamiliar with the reprehensible Bloated,
>Besotted, Toad,  Troll, once again though my trusty Kill file has gone
>into action, having now added that Bloated, Besotted, Toad, Troll, new
>address I now feel a new sense of satisfaction, like flushing another,
>"movement" satisfying.. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH   

	Would this not be better posted on alt.sex.anal?



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 71781 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.california,alt.christnet,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Ken, Ken...relax!
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 4 Oct 1996 02:18:29 GMT, rgstein@ios.com (Bob Goldstein) wrote:

>past postings
>> 
>> > The super hero Ken McVay will not debate Winston Smith on the fraud of 
>> >the Holocaust. Mcvay has retruned all Smith's e-mail and has run like the 
>> >communist pinko he is, with his tail behind his liberal legs.
>> 
>> Translation: another twit was entered into my mail filter, and
>> Howard Covington lacks the balls to post in public newsgroups.

>Now, Ken, you're clearly a smart fellow.  Don't get so upset.
>Why not debate Winston Smith?  

	Because McVay is a US DOD employee and Nizkor is hosted by 1B Systems.  

	The only surprising thing is that is disappeared from the milnet listing
AFTER it was found.  
 
>> > Winston Smith being an adult is too much for McVay and Nizkor, they are 
>> >used to juming on kids. Like the frauds they are, they hid behind 
>> >bullshit attacts on children.
>> 
>> "Juming?" Sounds like Giwerundean!

>See, Ken?  People come to the wrong conclusion when you won't take
>on Mr. Smith.  If you don't debate with him, people might start to
>think he is right.  They might begin to believe that there never
>was a holocaust;  and to question whether 6,000,000 Jews were
>killed.

	McVay is among the best the British Columbia can produce.  

	Enough said.  

>> > Come on Mcvey, that is if that's your real name, you scream about Enst 
>> 
>> "Enst Zundel?" Who is this Enst Zundel? Does Ernst Zundel know
>> him, h*ber?
>> 

>But, Ken, pointing out spelling errors makes the little points while
>giving up the greater issues!  One must do battle on the great field
>of ideas with vision and power, not with pointless pedantic trivia.

	It is the best that British Columbia can do.  

>Seriously, aren't you up to this challenge?  If Winston Smith wants
>to dispute the holocaust, why not discuss it with him?  All you have
>to do is show the facts.  Let him show his facts.  And that should be
>that.

	McVay is incapable of doing anything short of contract fraud in hosting
Nizkor.  And if not contract fraud, then his DOD contract permits it.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 71782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 5
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 3 Oct 1996 19:03:33 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>>little game. 

>    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.  As promised, we resume with
>Friedrich Berg of diesel exhaust fame.

>  Berg:

>     If you operate above the Normal Operating Range of fuel/air ratios,
>     you produce excessive quantities of smoke rapidly. That is why I
>     referred to the discussion by E.W. Landen at the end of the Elliott
>     and Davis paper and why I included his diagram as well. At fuel/air
>     ratios beyond about 0.055, the smoke "solid" line becomes almost
>     vertical and that means, according to Landen on page 346: "short
>     engine life."

	When are you folks going to drop this idiot charade.  People were not
gassed at Treblinka, they were steamed.  Here is the proof from the
eyewitness.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers 
and a boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by 
means of pipes to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the 
chambers which become very slippery when wet ... All victims had 
to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected 
afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first, were 
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to 
move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and 
kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward 
and stumbl ed over them. Small children were simply thrown 
inside. After being filled up to capacity the chambers were 
hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes all 
was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
    This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into 
the record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM 
Gilbert's *Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not 
eyewitness testimony is a technicality.



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 71784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:35:04 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>>  >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>>  >  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>  >  
>>>  >  # Considering how the Soviets had set up a Extraordinary Commission
>>>  >  # for the study of war crimes from day one of entering the camps, why
>>>  >  # did the Soviets not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their
>>>  >  # razed state?
>>>  >  
>>>  >  Of course they did. See Pressac's book.
>>>  >  
>>>  >  # and why didn't the Soviets take any photographs
>>>  >  
>>>  >  They did.
>>>  
>>>  	Apparently l'il tommy is unaware of the evidence presented at the 
>>>  Nuremberg trial.  They not only took photographs but made movies as well.

>	If rblackmore hadn't posted this I probably wouldn't have seen
>it, since I only click up Mr.Edeiken's stuff when I'm in the mood for
>a little sport.

>	Mr. Edeiken, I'm interested in these photos, and the movies. How
>come they are not used, referred to, in the Holocasut sales package? I
>take it your not referring to anything of Buchenwald or Dachau, but
>are referring to any taken by the Soviets, as that's what the subject
>is about. 

	I have only heard of one movie and it would be in the no longer used
category as it was made by the US Army and showed a gas chamber.  And since
the US had no access to Poland ... 

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 71785 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 152
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References:  
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:23:56 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
Gandhi) wrote:

>In article ,
> wrote:

>[snip]

>> I was shocked to see the sort of degrading (to us all) language that they
>> utilize when speaking of Matt Giwer. Why is this?

>Apparently you haven't read some of the files in Giwer's directory. The
>language is a direct quote from Giwer, the troll, himself. Giwer is not
>interested in rational and reasonable debate. Giwer engages in extortion,
>harassment (including a number of mailbombs), outright lies, and threats.
>It should be noted as well that all of this is behaviour regarded as
>criminal (including mailbombing, which is a criminal offence in the US and
>in Canada.)

>Take for example, the following:

>         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
>         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
>         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
>         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
>         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."

>                      - Giwer, Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>

>Of course it gets worse - Giwer is completely devoid of anything
>resembling decency, morality, and integrity.

>For confirmation and reference, please examine the copious documentation
>available at 

    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 71787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 137
Message-ID: <534bgn$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 02 Oct 1996 13:43:34 GMT, syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp)
wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:45:53 GMT,  wrote:

>>As a person who had at least a moderate degree of respect for the
>>professionalism that Nizkor presents on their site (though I am on the
>>other side of the debate),
>>I was shocked to see the sort of degrading (to us all) language that they
>>utilize when speaking of Matt Giwer. Why is this?

>Probably because all attempts at trying to "debate" Matt have ended
>with him sinking to one appallingly low depth after another. See
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/ for all the
>details.
>____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com                                       EFNet IRC: GinRei
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________

    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:50 PDT 1996
Article: 71788 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.flame,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Silly superstitious holohuggers think a curse is a death threat
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <534bgp$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52rtl4$9er@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:71788 alt.usenet.kooks:29724 alt.flame:27045 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:578

On 1 Oct 1996 21:07:00 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:


>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	To this idiot a curse is a death threat.  

>	The one about killing Danny Keren if you were back-to-back in combat?

>	Sounds like a death threat to me!

	I never said you had mastered english.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:50 PDT 1996
Article: 71789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: real true holocaust story
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 358
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	Sworn to by Ken McVay himself.

On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote:

>Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016
>Last-modified: 1993/03/22

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>             (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org)

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

>                THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
>                             Shimon Kanz


>A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors  who arrived from
>Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for
>3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to
>Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor.
>Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution
> over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of
>the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the
>prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered
>their heads.

>In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of
>Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

	Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.  

>                        SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

>"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating
>and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender
>existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which
>I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory
>throughout my life."

	It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a
meaningful crossexamination.  

>The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow
>accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly
>exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the
>bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and
>humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during
>the work in the camp Postak.

	"Stone him.  Stone him."  

	"Jehovah!  Jehovah!"

	Stoned?  Who biblical.  But maybe he really just inhaled.  

>The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the
>"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

>Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered
>automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her
>delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures?
>From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

	She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her
treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses.  

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

	Devilish laughter.  Melodrama testified to in court.  The evil always laugh
as devilishly as they can.  Ming the Merciless did it too.  

	Is any adult to take this seriously?  Of course not.  Only holohuggers
believe this sort of crap.  

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

>Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons.
>They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. 
	
	And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of
these wagons, depending upon translation.  

And
>when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The
>devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing.

	Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the
engine.  Real true holohugger fantasy life here.  And they could see the
faces of pilots from inside closed wagons.  This woman certainly has to be
paid for this performance.  

>On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons
>and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to
>begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

	Ah, yes, dancing.  Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt.  Very efficient
these Nazis.  

>Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her
>words shiver and only an echoe  is heard of those awful days which
>had become from day to day more terrible.

	A true whacko so far.  

>They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed
>wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the
>slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow
>took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one,
>neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers
>how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

	So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they
could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?  This person
is truly psychotic.  

>Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers
>were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the
>Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did
>not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring
>taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger
>nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon
>you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist".

	Certainly fingers were just pulled off.  

	Tell me the truth.  This was written by Stephen King, right?  

>The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and
>shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it
>will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

	But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it.  

	But here it is not a secret and they do know about it.  
	
	It is also an interesting speech.  Maybe it translates to a chant.  

	You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same
testimony.  

>                     THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS

>The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened
>from hunger and thrust  pains and agony and they started
>screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp.

>The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker"
>as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what
> to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and
>gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland,
>Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did
>not understand the meaning of their shouts.

	They did not understand the shouts.  Then where did the translation of the
chant above come from?  This witness?  

>At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel:
>"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle
>of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them
>immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other
>clothes here."

	Right, bundles of clothes.  Every found a bundle of clothes.  No one has.  
	
>Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the
>year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three
>women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his
>finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for
>profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his
>assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a
>laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and
>Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium,
>but she managed to get them out of the line.

	In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what
happened after that point.  The gassing all her fantasy.  

>The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their
>belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few
>craftsmen were allowed to survive.

	But she has no way of knowing.  

>                 SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

>We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German
>officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the
>laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were
>distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in
>her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you
>can".

	They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was
expanded.  

	Note here that the judge leads the witness.  A typical war crimes tactic.  

>The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She
>feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a
>Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while
>writing every word going out of her mouth.

>The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what
>she has seen with her own eyes. 
	
	Who is it that does not want hearsay?  

But how can she not tell about the
>shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. 
	
	That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it.
What in the hell does the author think witness means?  

The heartbreaking
>shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning
>penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that
>they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

	But she was not raped.  Must have been real ugly.  

>Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday
>a transport arrived with thursty  people as it had been for several
>days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some
>to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was
>already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which
>served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the
>excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty  people of
>the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each
>other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was
>shot by the Germans.

	And all of this from what she did not witness.  Quite amazing  that this is
level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials.  Even more
interesting that crossexamination was not permitted.  

>                        HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

>The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor
>after the revolt are horrifying.

>They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last
>moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell
>about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven
>to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their
>own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the
>Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his
>arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and
>they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was
>supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place
>at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he
>ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks,
>called for the orchestra, gathered the  women and told them to sing and
>dance.

	Thank you, Steven Speilberg.  Jewrassic Pork lives.  

>This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered
>all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child.
	
	Eating sardines.  Are they not Kosher?  

>Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops.
>The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind  
>of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and
>guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and
>mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop  trees.
>Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and
>escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the
>heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same.

	Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news.  

>                      THE REBELLION COMMITTEE

>Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of
>the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To
>this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul
>Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided
>revenge.

	Excuse me.  It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize
this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them?  

>In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives.  How
>dangerous this was!  How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use
>in order to conceal this.  Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and
>courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the
>storehouses.  The participants of this operation were divided into
>groups.  The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group
>and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the
>guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt
>the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the
>guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the
>telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make
>passage ways.

	But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough.  

>              THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED

>The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death
>enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the
>prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well.
>Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened.
>Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood
>shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this
>day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the
>hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men
>and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves
>when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed
>now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into
>the trap looking for a hiding place.

	Sobibor gasse millions.  How can the world have missed this.  

>The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes
>and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews.
>Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans.
>Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called
>Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of
>some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew
>and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached
>the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living
>of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their
>intestines that they wished to die.

	They did not live off of them.  

>They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side
>to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission.
>It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good
>thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled
>to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall
>heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans
>flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you
>emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place."
>The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the
>question remained unanswered.

	Most likely they would have been shot for doing so.  That is the way the
holocaust works. 

=====

http://www.codoh.com/



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 71790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer the Coward (Re: Israel provokes the end of peace)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
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References: <52f6q1$gpf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52m9dg$cnn@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52ooct$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52s6eu$grd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <531nt6$5du@newshub.atmnet.net>
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On Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:54:05 GMT, frice@stbbs.com (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

>mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>>I've asked Matt Giwer if he believes Ernst Zundel's claim,
>>>that he met German scientists who built the "secret UFO's",
>>>which flew into the inner earth.

>>>Which one is it, Matty?

>>Since UFOs and gassing both exist upon the same sort of baseless testimony
>>without physical evidence, I choose door number 3, Monty.  Holohuggers are
>>crazed liars.  

>That is an admission, Matt, that you are in agreement that Zundel's
>claim is "baseless testimony." (sic)  And yet for some mysterious
>reason you go ahead and accept all his other baseless claims.

>What selection attributes are you looking for when you pick and
>choose which brand of absurdity you'll believe and which you won't?

	I can not find a difference between him and the US military at the time.

	If you can, please post it.
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:52 PDT 1996
Article: 71792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
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	It has been some six to seven months since the holohuggers, after several
rounds of name calling, dropped to rather obvious point regarding the
collection of human hair, there exists nothing then or now that is made of
pure jewess hair.  

	It appears all the hair was cut off and shipped to German to be destroyed
rather than used to make anything.  Tbink of all the doormats not made, all
the mattresses not stuffed, all the submariners' socks not made. 

	But maybe the holohuggers will restart the name calling rather than admit
the jewess hair is in the same category as jewish soap.  

	Now one to indentifying the real reason for employing Bomba the Barber and
his fellow collaborators.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:53 PDT 1996
Article: 71797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where is our giwerundean entomologist?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:50:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <534bdi$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <5182q1$5as@Vir.com> <324edc5c.4276979@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <52oobn$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52rt1l$gqk@access5.digex.net> <52sbeu$7kf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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On 1 Oct 1996 17:02:38 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>In article <52rt1l$gqk@access5.digex.net>, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>    OK, let's return to revisionism.  Tell us again about those
>>hundred-pound screaming lice which were killed in the vans discussed in
>>the letter from Just to Rauff.  Remember, you proposed that the letter was
>>really about Degesch mobile delousing chambers.  Can you produce any
>>physical evidence of this unusual species of louse which nobody else has
>>ever heard of?

>Malaphagia Giweria or Anoplura Fenstermatthias? _Those_ hundred-pound 
>screaming lice that were killed in the vans discussed in the letter from 
>Just to Rauff? ...or perhaps Malaphagia Giweria Plasterdia or Anoplura 
>Giweria DT....

>Lots of them on Nebraska Avenue, according to Tampa disease and pest 
>control officers.

>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
>-----------------------| Free Giwerundean Lessons Here!
>                       |--------------------------------------
>    http://www.nizkor.org/giwerundean-lesson.cgi

    Hey folks, save this one.  It is another one sworn to by 
NIZKOR itself.  Do not miss this one.  

On 24 Sep 1996 07:24:54 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/sobibor/staff/wagner.gustav
>Last-modified: 1993/04/18

>"Oberschafuhrer Gustav Wagner

	Note that his name if WAGNER.  

>"The man who actually supervised the routine and daily life at Sobibor was
>Gustav Wagner. He was the quartermaster-sergeant of the camp. Moshe Bahir
>described him:

>     "He was a handsome man, tall and blonde -- a pure Aryan. 

    There is no such thing as Aryan but Moses recognizes it 
immediately even though blond adults were a rarity.  

In civilian
>     life he was, no doubt, a well-mannered man; at Sobibor he was a wild
>     beast. His lust to kill knew no bounds. 

    The SEX connection, a LUST to kill.  Real LUST here.  Give 
him lust and nothing but.  

I saw such terrible scenes
>     that they give me nightmares to this day. He would snatch babies from
>     their mothers' arms and tear them to pieces in his hands. 

    Who is this guy, really?  Sampson?  Tearing babies to pieces 
with his bare hands?  

    Think about it a minute.  Tearing babies apart.  Has anyone 
ever tried tearing apart and uncooked chicken without a knife?  
How about a rabbit?  You have not tried it?  

    Fine, go buy a whole chicken, much smaller than a human baby 
and tear it apart with your bare hands.  

	...

    Now that you are exhausted to no success in this tearing 
apart a many days dead carcass, what do you think of this claim?  
You still believe it?  You have to be jewish.  

I saw him
>     beat two men to death with a rifle, because they did not carry out his
>     instructions properly, since they did not understand German. I
>     remember that one night a group of youths aged fifteen or sixteen
>     arrived in the camp. The head of this group was one Abraham. After a
>     long and arduous work day, this young man collapsed on his pallet and
>     fell asleep. Suddenly Wagner came into our barrack, and Abraham did
>     not hear him call to stand up at once before him. Furious, he pulled
>     Abraham naked off his bed and began to beat him all over his body.
>     When Wagner grew weary of the blows, he took out his revolver and
>     killed him on the spot. This atrocious spectacle was carried out
>     before all of us, including Abraham's younger brother. <1>

    Is this not a wonderful description.  First he beats people 
to death with a rifle (quite a difficult proposition but simple 
to those who believe he could tear infants apart with his bare 
hands) and then he beats a man with his bear hands.  And fhen 
finally he pulls out a non-regulation revolver and shoots him. 
Not a Lugar, not a Vis, but a revolver.  And noting that earlier 
he beat a man to death with a rifle instead of simply shooting 
him with the rifle.  

	Ah well, those wild and crazy guys were at it again.  

>"Wagner's ruthless behavior toward the Jews is mentioned in some other
>testimonies of Sobibor survivors. Ada Lichtman writes that on the fast day
>of Yom Kippur, Wagner appeared at the roll call, took out some prisoners,
>gave them bread and ordered them to eat. As the prisoners ate the bread, he
>laughed loudly; he enjoyed his joke because he knew the Jews he had forced
>to eat were pious. <2>

    He forced them to violate their religion and laughed.  Does 
not every manifestation of pure demonic evil laugh?  Real evil is 
people like the murderer of Paula Klass.  Real evil is people 
like Dahlmer.  Real evil does not laugh. But melodramtic, poor 
fiction evil always laughs.  

    Is there any difference in principle from this "laughing" and 
Count Dracula, aka Bela Legosi laughing?  Why is it that evil 
only laughs in stories and not in real life?  

>"Gustav Wagner escaped after the war to Brazil, where he lived openly. The
>Brazilian Supreme Court refused to extradite him. In October 1980 his
>attorney announced that Wagner had committed suicide."

    Ah, yes, and Count Dracula escaped to England where he was 
later reported dead to Van Helsing but lived again in the 
sequals.  

><1> Publication of the Museum of the Combatants and Partisans, Tel Aviv,
>    April, 1973, p.37
><2> Ada Lichtman. Yad Vashem Archives, L-11/5, testimony of Ada Lichtman
>    pp. 36-37

>Excerpted from....----------------------------------------------
>BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps
>Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987. ISBN 0-253-3429-7

    Ah, yes, the collection of melodramatic fairy tales that 
impresses immature idiots.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:53 PDT 1996
Article: 71798 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More jewish terrorism in France
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
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On 2 Oct 1996 06:35:10 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
wrote:

>Capt. Peter Peachfuzz (mgiwer@shotehgamur.com) wrote:

>:  JEWISH FASCISTS SPREAD TERROR IN
>:                            PARIS

>Isn't this newsgroup supposed to be for discussing revisionism?  Or was
>this posted by the Giwer from the Alternate Universe where everything
>is antimatter?

	When the exterminationist posts stop I will stop.  If you folks will not
honor the revision only nature of the conference I will not.  

	You do understand, do you not?  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 71799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Palestinians
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <534bib$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <32526d55.100018@199.0.216.204>  <3254f519.247107@199.0.216.204>
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:30:35 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># The end tally was about 1100 kids dead.
>>
>>No, that was the total number of Palestinians killed in the
>>"Intifada" by Israeli forces. About 400 Israelis were also
>>killed. A further 1,000 Palestinians were killed by other
>>Palestinians (being suspected of cooperating with Israel).

>	The total of kids shot under the age of twenty was over 900.
>I don't know how many of the Israelis were killed. But it wasn't any
>400. And none of them was killed by rocks. They shot kids throwing
>rocks with their guns, from the safe distance. Bullets against rocks. 
>Pathetic.

	In another conference I had a bit of fun when I discovered the person who
defended the use of guns against rocks in Palestine condemned the use of
guns against rocks at Kent State.  You can guess his maternal persuasion.  

>	The 1000 figure you give for the killing of collaborators is way
>over what it was. The killing of collaborators was played up big by
>Jews in our medias as relevant to the guns against rocks. Just another
>element of chutzpa reasoning. I might even be able to retrieve some
>full page ads by the likes of the ADL to show how they did. Might even
>be able to recover a statement or two by Simon Wiesenthal. 
>     And, what's wrong with killing collaborators? Collaborators tell
>the Jews, the Jews use the information to kill Palestinians, the
>Palestinians kill collaborators.

	Sounds like the Zionists and the Nazis but they were elevated to heroes or
some such.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 71800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human skin LAMPSHADE STORY A CRUEL AND VULGAR HOAX
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <534bhu$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <32414E2D.728@rio.com> <51tavc$s8n@juliana.sprynet.com> <523s8h$nom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <531pvt$a1l@access5.digex.net>
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On 3 Oct 1996 21:41:17 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <523s8h$nom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On 20 Sep 1996 05:44:12 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>
>>>>   Chuck Ferree  writes:
>>>>  Chuck Ferree writes:
>>>>  
>>>>  Her husband, the commandant of Buchenwald was executed by the SS? I 
>>>>  didn't know that, and I think I still don't know that. 
>>>>  
>>>I see that you still don't know that those lamp-shades you saw were fakes.>  
>>>> 
>>
>>>>  > Of course your response was a non-response-seeing that her husband 
>>>>  > had been executed by the SS.
>>>>  
>>>>  Another fairy tale from the "scholor of the year!"
>>
>>>Really?  Ask your friends at Nizkor about it.  I think they will be 
>>>honest enough in this case to burst your bubble.
>>
>>	No, they are not that honest.  They will never disagree on any 
>>substantive issue with each other.  In nearly a year now, the most I have
>>seen is a disagreement on "how guilty were they."  

>    Given Mr. Giwer's vision problems, as proved by his uproarious
>misreading of the photograph "fndaerab.jpg," the wonder is rather that Mr.
>Giwer can see anything at all.  (Further evidence of Mr. Giwer's vision
>problems can be found on his website.  At that, it's somewhat improved
>from when he first announced it.)

	Sorry about that but gratiotois and unfounded insults are responded to in
regards to your silly little holocaust.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical 
appliances were built in for mass extermination of people. Under 
the pretext that the people were being led to the bath-house, the 
doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the 
floor was electrified in a special way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 71802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.total.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Swiss II
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <534big$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:33:11 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	The Jews have collected billions of dollars from Germany with the
>Holocaust premise. Billions to individuals, billions to Israel.
>Perhaps 100,$$$,$$$,$$$ + altogether. Billions more have been
>extracrted from the United States, totaling over 100 billion. 
>	Now where has much of this money gone? Could it be too far out to
>suggest billions have been nestled away into secret Swiss accounts?  

	They have used enough of it to pay people to spy on the US that certainly
some of that money went in another direction -- imagine a spy suing for
underpayment.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 71803 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 01:22:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:48:40 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>Recently an article in the Jerusalem Post claimed that the
>previous estimate of 2.5 million Jews presently in the Soviet Union is
>mistaken, and is now claimed to be 5 million, twice the previous
>figure.   

	Does Israel still have to clout to force them all to go to Israel?  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:57 PDT 1996
Article: 71805 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The 3,000,000 That Never Were
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:51:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 11:55:52 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>			
>	At the Yad Vashim Holocaust monument in Israel are stored
>3,000,000 names of Jews said to have been victims of the Holocaust.

>	This would be equivalent to a telephone book with 9000 pages.

>	Will the world ever have the chance to check all these names as
>to how they were come by?

>	Would the Jews be able to show how they were come by?
>	
>	Would the Jews be able to show documentation, even remotely
>convincing, to show the names are not just phony entries? Fictitious
>names?

	Will anyone be able to show they were even Jewish?  

>	Would the Jews agree to an inquiry?

>	No.

>	It is obvious that a lot of effort has gone into compiling these
>names.

>	Many Jews must be involved?

>	If only 100 Jews were involved, this would mean that each one
>would be responsible for entering 30,000 names. Maybe it is more like
>1000 Jews each entering 3000 names, or even 3000 Jews each entering
>1000 names. Either way, there must be an aweful lot of Jews involved.

>	As they enter these names, what could they be thinking? The
>Holocaust is true? The Holocaust is false? Most likely these questions
>wouldn't even cross the Jewish mental state. The only thing that
>counts is the self justifying, self righteous perpetuation of the
>Jewish cause. 

	In addition to entering names, what about the paper trail that would be
required to establish then on the list.  Each name would have to be
connected to the documentation of that trail.  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:58 PDT 1996
Article: 71806 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 01:23:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 4 Oct 1996 16:09:53 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >Recently an article in the Jerusalem Post claimed that the
>: >previous estimate of 2.5 million Jews presently in the Soviet Union is
>: >mistaken, and is now claimed to be 5 million, twice the previous
>: >figure.
>: 
>: 	Considering the usual penchant for exaggerations by the Jewish
>: community, I would say the population of Jews in Russia is more like
>: half of original figure of 2.5 million.

>Anderson, wouldn't you say that Moran's unsupported guesses are of
>limited interest to anybody other than Moran and Moran?

	What what kind of jews are they?  Religious or tribal?  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:58 PDT 1996
Article: 71807 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 01:28:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:41:40 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	The following is a response a Mr.Morrison has posted in the past.
>I am including it here myself in case Mr.Morrison for some reason
>choses not to this time around.
>=======================================================================

>From Mr.Morrison:

>	Wow!  A Holocaust book printed in *1931*, before Hitler came to
>power, before the first concentration camp was built, before
>Auschwitz.  That Ruppin guy must have been some prescient dude.

>Idiot.

>Enough of that, let us proceed to the numbers.

>Population growth is exponential and proceeds according to the formula


>                      P=PoE^(at)                     Eqn 1
>where
>    P = population after time t
>    Po= original population
>    E = exponential constant e (2.718281828...)
>    t = time in years
>    a = growth rate

	And if you add 80 years to get from 1860 to 1940 you get 12.8 million
total.  Now we have a figure from which to work backwards as to how much of
Europe was controlled by Germany, their jewish populations and so forth.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:55:59 PDT 1996
Article: 71808 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 01:41:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:28:04 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
>	
>	
>	"Deus ex machina".

>	Random House Dictionary:
>  1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
>natural forces".
>  2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
>difficulties of a plot".

>	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant hill
>phrase or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or second
>party eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of testimony,
>anonymous accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at the 'scene
>of the crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the purpose.

	Rather more generally, in answer to "How could people do such a thing?" the
answer is "Pure Nazi Evil."  
	
>                  ----------------------------

>	 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
>     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
>people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
>inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
>validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
>ignorance", (or inability to access any references cited as showing
>proof) such as most of the Holocaust evidence.

	As is "Why would Israel attack the Liberty if ..." and so forth. 
































































>                    Argumentum ad Special Exception

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:00 PDT 1996
Article: 71809 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Keren says witnesses do not lie
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 01:54:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	Dr. Keren, is this witness lying?  

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

	Devilish laughter.  Melodrama testified to in court.  The evil always laugh
as devilishly as they can.  Ming the Merciless did it too.  

	Is any adult to take this seriously?  Of course not.  Only holohuggers
believe this sort of crap.  

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

>Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons.
>They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. 
	
	And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of
these wagons, depending upon translation.  

And
>when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The
>devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing.

	Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the
engine.  Real true holohugger fantasy life here.  And they could see the
faces of pilots from inside closed wagons.  This woman certainly has to be
paid for this performance.  

>On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons
>and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to
>begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

	Ah, yes, dancing.  Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt.  Very efficient
these Nazis.  

>Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her
>words shiver and only an echoe  is heard of those awful days which
>had become from day to day more terrible.

	A true whacko so far.  

>They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed
>wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the
>slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow
>took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one,
>neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers
>how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

	So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they
could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?  This person
is truly psychotic.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:01 PDT 1996
Article: 71810 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 02:16:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 16:12:36 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>[snip]

>>First of all, the Einsatzgruppen commanders DID say that many of their
>>reports and figures were exaggerated.

>Good point. Now why do you suppose the folks back in Berlin would
>impressed by exaggerated body counts of Jews shot by the
>Einsatzgruppen?

>>                                         Secondly, German officers
>>and soldiers WERE tortured.  Uncomfortable for you to have to admit,
>>but true nonetheless.

>I am not uncomfortable admitting it. But I am uncomfortable with the
>claim that every single inconvenient confession or testimony was
>obtained by torture especially when men who were no longer in danger
>of legal sanctions failed to recant their testimony or to complain
>that they were tortured.

>I know, I know. You'll get around to posting. . . .

	I have yet to see a claim that all confessions were obtained under torture
any more than anyonc claims all confessions by witches were obtained under
torture.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:01 PDT 1996
Article: 71815 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 01:52:42 GMT
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On Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:44:20 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

	I notice our resident computer scientist fails to post the actual testimony
but expects his simple statement of same to be accepted.  On the other hand
it fails to address the 80,000 in one night at Auschwitz thinking it has
made a point with the issue of the camp.  

	It is a very common tactic, to go after an incidental and expect the
impossible to be accepted.  

	Further it attempts to imply that witnesses did not lie, including all the
very obvious examples of such lying I have posted including this one of
80,000 in a single night and the man who was gassed six times and told the
story.  

>It's been more than a month now, and Matt Giwer has not yet 
>posted the name of the person who allegedly gave the testimony 
>he mentions below.

	I could make up a name and you would not know the difference.  

>Yet, he keeps insisting he's not lying, and that such testimony
>was indeed given. Why can't he tell us who gave it?

>Giwer is a crazed liar.

	Whatever I am, it does drive the holohuggers crazy.  

>            Giwer the Liar Posts a Testimony
>	          Which Does Not Exist
>            -------------------------------- 

>Giwer posted a non-existing testimony. Period. He did it in
>order to "prove" that testimonies of survivors are a "lie".

>The tactic is simple; "revisionists" use it all the time. They 
>invent a non-existing testimony, or distort an existing one, 
>and then post it as if it was an actual testimony. Al Baron 
>did it. Tom Moran did it. And now Giwer does it.

>

># In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
># trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and
># Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000
># Jews,  representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been
># gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.

>

>Since there was no such mass gassing in Belsen, Giwer is 
>trying to make it appear as if a witness said there was such 
>gassing, in order to "prove" that this witness was lying.

	Actually I was more focussed on the 80,000 in one night and said so when
some holohugger posted the original that I first commented on back around
March.  As for who was making it up, I copied it from a holohugger post.  

>Giwer has yet to provide the name of this witness. But
>he can't. Note that his only response to this reasonable
>request is to spam the group by reposting something totally 
>unrelated. 

	The holohugger did not give a name when it was posted.  

>The truth is that a Jewish doctor did testify about the
>murder of the Lodz Jews in gas chambers, but he said it
>took place in Auschwitz, not Belsen; also, he didn't say
>they were all murdered in one night.

	Nor does the quote from the holohugger say that.  You will note there is an
OR in the statement.  

>Our pathological liar posts an "edited" version of the testimony.

	Perhaps holohuggers should not post such material in the first place.  

>But this is what you can expect from a senile, pathetic,
>miserable liar like Giwer.

	You really should pay attention to the conference so you will know where
material comes from.  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71835 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: alternate realities
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 03:59:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	Consider for a moment two extremes for Europe in WW II.  

	1)  When liberated no Jews were found.

	2)  There was no holocaust, no extermination of anyone.

	How different would the war look?  

	One answer to both is that the war would look just like it does in the
thousands of WW II documentaries.  

	The other answer to both is that the war would look just like it does in
the thousands of WW II documentaries.  

	The addition of the "holocaust" is only to add a moral dimension that has
nothing to do with WW II itself.  

	But of course the holohuggers see all of WW II as the ultimate expression
of antisemitism.  


=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:03 PDT 1996
Article: 71841 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange jewish attitudes about jews.
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 04:09:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 4 Oct 1996 14:01:13 +0100, Nele Abels  wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, maintained that
>> anti-Semitism is not an aberration, but a natural and completely understandable
>> response by non-Jews to alien Jewish behavior and attitudes. 

>Yawn! Lying again...

	Gee, and it comes from an Israeli government source.  How strange.  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 13:14:35 PDT 1996
Article: 71936 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 19:32:11 GMT
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 16:03:34 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>>   Brian Harmon  writes:
>>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>
>>, the blowers in the undressing room were more powerful than the ventilators
>>>  > in the alleged "gas chamber".  
>  
>>>  Says who?

>>It's a fact.

>It may have been a fact when the undressing room was planned for use
>as a second gas chamber, but it is also a fact that there is no
>evidence that the ventilatirs were ever installed in the undressing
>room. Read Pressac's essay in the _Anatomy_.

	There is no evidence that there was any special ventilation provided to the
one room in five rooms that was supposed to be used for gassing.  So what
is your point?  That a pharmacist is an authority in this matter?  
  
>>>  > It should have been the other way around.
>  
>>>  Why?

>>Zyklon is lighter than air.

>Get Richard Green or Brian Harmon to explain turbulent diffusion of
>gases to you. I understand the concept, but they explain it so much
>better than I do, and you are plainly ignorant of the physics of gas
>diffusion.  

	And it was also thoroughly explained that in the "induction column"
scenario that gas would diffuse upwards into the coumn instead of outward
into the room.  

>>>    Why should i have to prove TO YOU that every document 
>>>  historians use is genuine?
>>
>>You don't.

>> What are these "special actions"?
>  
>>>  Sonderaktions = Gassing.

>>Your interpretation.

>Rather, the interpretation of every historian who has studied the
>question. 

	Both of them.  

I recommend Pierre Vidal-Naquet's essay in _Assassins of
>Memory_ on the use of the term in Kremer's diary. It will give you yet
>another insight into the "revisionist def comedy jam."

	It is rather more interesting that you would hold the word never refers to
the field shootings by the EG.  
  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 13:14:36 PDT 1996
Article: 71937 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,ab.general,can.politics
Subject: Re: DON'T FORGET MCVEY'S A LIAR
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 19:35:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <536dcn$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:15:34 -0600, acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:

>Don't forget that the faggot lover Ken McVey,representing the Jewish 
>terrorist group that murders,JDL, is a proven liar, according to all the 
>reports in the newsgroup alt.revisionism,and others.

>He supports the murder of innocent Palestinian civilians in occupied 
>Palestine.

>He supports the murder of US sailors in the USS Liberty attack by Israel.

>He even supported the murder of the UN personnel by the JEWS at the Qana 
>refugee camp.

>Mind you, he refuses to explain why he was let go from the US military. 
>Could it be for conduct unbecoming????Why does it never refer to any 
>family??Again, one must wonder about its' sexual orientation, 
>particularly in view of the support of faggots.

	But do not forget that if you have not collected every reference to his
doing so and able to post them instantly they will pretend that nothing you
have said is true.  And that in spite of their having read it for
themselves.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:28 PDT 1996
Article: 71946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unsolicited email
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <536h0f$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52euum$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52ooco$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:29:19 -0600, bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva) wrote:

>In article <52ooco$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:02:31 -0600, bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <52euum$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> >>         What happens is that every month or so, out of nowhere, YFE
>> >sends me email
>> >> complaining that I have sent him unsolicited email.  (Lately he has
>taken to
>> >> claiming that is is also anti-semitic and obscene but he is getting rather
>> >> hysterical.)  He also demands that I stop sending him email.
>> >> 
>> >>         I respond by informing him that I have never initiated any email
>> >to him.  
>> >>         
>> >>         Then he complains that my response to his unsolicited and
>> >causeless email is
>> >> unsolicited email and that he uses as the basis for his libelous
>complaints.
>> 
>> >Libelous?
>> 
>> >Do you know the meaning of the term?
>> 
>> >Perhaps, then, you could explain how a private exchange can possibly be
>> >"libelous".
>> 
>> >> One would think that an attorney would know better than to do something as
>> >> obvious as that.  
>> >> 
>> >>         But then, he is from Pennsylvania.  
>> 
>> >Just like your buddies, the Christian Posse Comitatus!
>> 
>>         Idiot handles, dickless wonders too cowardly to use their own
>name, are scum.  

>Who placed you in a position from which you could pronounce upon who is
>and is not "scum"?

	I did, idiot handle.  

>Why are you so upset about the name I use?

	It is something I picked up from the holohuggers, always after a person's
real name so they can harrass them, their families and their employer.  But
you know that, idiot handle.  

>What makes you think it isn't my real name?

	That question suggests you are in your early teens.  

>Why do you refuse to answer questions, preferring instead to make silly,
>childlike remarks about another?

>Well, nanny-nanny boo-boo to you, too, Matty.

	Excuse me, pre-teen.  

>The Bodhisattva has spoken.  You may now return to your trailer.

	Wanna be pre-teen.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:29 PDT 1996
Article: 71947 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCING THE IMPENDING ON-LINE CIRCUMCISION OF MY SON
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <536h0j$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52rm8u$rdm@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <52t2c1$npm@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <32526C6F.1541@ccnis.net> <3252a8d0.166195752@news.zilker.net> <3255CC40.5F0@unb.ca>
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 23:47:28 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Mike Curtis wrote:
>> 
>> "Annie Alpert, OFB"  wrote:
>> 
>> >Richard Schultz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Marduk (mgiwer@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Give it up, buddy.  Giwer now puts "mgwier," not "mgiwer," in his
>> >> From: line.
>> >
>> >You know why he's doing that, don't you?  He's trying to bypass the
>> >killfile commands some users might have on their system.  He can't STAND
>> >to be ignored!
>> 
>> Who is Giwer? I haven't seen him in months. Anyway, what is there to
>> see?

>The intellectual equivalent of someone masturbating with a cheese
>grater.

	Rapierlike wit.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:30 PDT 1996
Article: 71948 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <536h0m$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bid$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <534hlq$dk7@news.enter.net>
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On 5 Oct 1996 02:37:46 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  	It has been some six to seven months since the holohuggers, after several
>>  rounds of name calling, dropped to rather obvious point regarding the
>>  collection of human hair, there exists nothing then or now that is made of
>>  pure jewess hair.  

>	Directive to commandants of concentration camps dated January 1, 
>1943:

>	"The prisoner's hair is to be sent to Alex Zink, Fur Manufactures, Ltd., 
>Nuremberg.  The company will pay 0.50 marks for every kilogram of hair."

>	Bubdesarchiv Koblenz; document NS 3 386.

	Now, dickless, lets stick to the subject.  There was not then nor is there
now any object ever found to have been manufactured of Pure Jewess Hair.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:31 PDT 1996
Article: 71950 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <536h0p$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bid$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <534hlq$dk7@news.enter.net> 
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 22:24:15 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <534hlq$dk7@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> >   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>> >       It has been some six to seven months since the holohuggers,
>after several
>> >  rounds of name calling, dropped to rather obvious point regarding the
>> >  collection of human hair, there exists nothing then or now that is made of
>> >  pure jewess hair.  
>> 
>>         Directive to commandants of concentration camps dated January 1, 
>> 1943:
>> 
>>         "The prisoner's hair is to be sent to Alex Zink, Fur
>Manufactures, Ltd., 
>> Nuremberg.  The company will pay 0.50 marks for every kilogram of hair."
>> 
>>         Bubdesarchiv Koblenz; document NS 3 386.
>> 
>>         --YFE


>The translation of a report from IMT, Band XX, Nurnberg 1947.

>This translation was taken from "Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945" 
>(ISBN 3-87490-528-4), p. 137; (Plate 282 with translation.) 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungshauptamt                Oranienburg,
>                                                 August 6. 1942
>Amtsgruppe D - Concentration Camps
>D II 288 Ma./Ha. Tgb. 112 geh.                   SECRET!
>                                                 Copy 13
>Re: Use of hair cuttings

>To the Commandants of the Concentration Camps
>Arb., Au., Bu., Da., Flo., Gr.Ro., Lu., Maut/Gu., Na., Nie., Neu.,
>Rav., Sahs., Stutth., Mor., SS SL Hinzert.

>SS Obergruppen fuhrer Pohl, Chief of the SS
>Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt has ordered that the hair of concentration
>camp prisoners is to be put to use. Hair is to be made into industrial
>felt or spun into yarn. Woman's hair is to be used in the manufacture of
>hair-yarn socks for 'U'-boat crews and hair-felt foot-wear for the
>Reichs-railway.

>It is therefore ordered that the hair of female prisoners be disinfected
>and stored. Men's hair can only be put to use if it is longer than 20 mm.
>SS Obergruppen fuhrer Pohl therefore agrees for an intial trial period to
>the growing of the prisoners hair to a length of 20 mm before it is cut.
>Long hair could facillitate escape and to avoid this the camp commandants
>may have a middle parting shaved in the prisoners' hair as a
>distinguishing mark, if they think it is necessary.

>It is planned to planned to set up a hair processing workshop in one of
>the concentration camps. Further details as to the delivery of the
>accumulated hair will follow.

>The total monthly amount of male and female hair is to be reported to this
>office on the 5th of every month beginning from September 5, 1942.

>                                                  signed: Glucks
>                                                  SS-Brigadefuhrer und
>                                                  Generalmajor der Waffen-SS

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Another dickless one speaks up.  The subject is that there has never been
any object ever discovered that was manufactured of Pure Jewess Hair.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:31 PDT 1996
Article: 71951 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <536h0s$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:04:32 GMT, cjsaunde@netcom.ca (Christopher Saunders)
wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>  But maybe the holohuggers will restart the name calling rather than
>> admit the jewess hair is in the same category as jewish soap.  

>I don't believe the "Jewish soap" story either.  You've probably seen
>it, but here's a quoation from Deborah Lipstadt, regarding the "Jewish
>soap":


>---[start]---
>	The fact is that the Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or
>for that matter anyone else, for the production of soap.  The soap
>rumor was prevalent both during and after the war.  It may have had
>its origin in the cadaver factory atrocity story that came out of
>World War I.  The letters "RJF" probably stood for the name of the
>factory that produced the soap.  The soap rumor was thoroughly
>investigated after the war and proved to be untrue.

>[segments snipped]

>					Deborah Lipstadt
>					Los Angeles

>	Lipstadt is on the faculty of UCLA, where she teaches modern
>Jewish history.
>---[end]---

>Now, if the "Jewish soap" is a lie, what else is a lie?

	The suds of the survivors should be all the proof needed.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:32 PDT 1996
Article: 71952 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <536h0v$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bid$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <5358b2$sqj@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325673D5.7720@ccnis.net>
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:42:29 -0400, "Annie Alpert, OFB"
 wrote:

>Christopher Saunders wrote:
>> 
>> mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> >  But maybe the holohuggers will restart the name calling rather than
>> > admit the jewess hair is in the same category as jewish soap.
>> 
>> I don't believe the "Jewish soap" story either.  You've probably seen
>> it, but here's a quoation from Deborah Lipstadt, regarding the "Jewish
>> soap":
>> 
>> ---[start]---
>>         The fact is that the Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or
>> for that matter anyone else, for the production of soap.  The soap
>> rumor was prevalent both during and after the war.  It may have had
>> its origin in the cadaver factory atrocity story that came out of
>> World War I.  The letters "RJF" probably stood for the name of the
>> factory that produced the soap.  The soap rumor was thoroughly
>> investigated after the war and proved to be untrue.
>> 
>> [segments snipped]
>> 
>>                                         Deborah Lipstadt
>>                                         Los Angeles
>> 
>>         Lipstadt is on the faculty of UCLA, where she teaches modern
>> Jewish history.
>> ---[end]---
>> 
>> Now, if the "Jewish soap" is a lie, what else is a lie?
>> 
>> {CHRIS}

>Actually, Chris, you should do a little checking before you trot out the
>party line. . . 
>There was an EXPERIMENTAL effort to make soap from human cadavers during
>WWII. From the International Military Tribunal:

	The subject here is HAIR.  However, if you want to add that no such soap
was ever found either, that is fine with me.  

	Now product of Pure Jewess Hair and no Pure Jewish Soap.  None ever found,
period.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:33 PDT 1996
Article: 71953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Made from100% pure Jewish Hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:37:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <536h12$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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	First I post this message.  And then the holohuggers on failing to provide
any such manufactured object, quickly try to shift the subject to soap.
Nice try folks.  One more myth down the tubes.  

========
Path: netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 00:52:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <534bid$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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	It has been some six to seven months since the holohuggers, after several
rounds of name calling, dropped to rather obvious point regarding the
collection of human hair, there exists nothing then or now that is made of
pure jewess hair.  

	It appears all the hair was cut off and shipped to German to be destroyed
rather than used to make anything.  Tbink of all the doormats not made, all
the mattresses not stuffed, all the submariners' socks not made. 

	But maybe the holohuggers will restart the name calling rather than admit
the jewess hair is in the same category as jewish soap.  

	Now one to indentifying the real reason for employing Bomba the Barber and
his fellow collaborators.  

=====

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:10 PDT 1996
Article: 71970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 21:51:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <536lbn$ao3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	Now that the human hair myth has fallen again, we are left with the
question of just why are there so many reports of the hair being cut from
new arrivals.  I have already posted the answer to this one but then the
holohuggers again started name calling in order to distract the topic from
the lack of of human hair and the well known reason for the hair cutting.

	That reason of course is sanitation.  It is the same reason that every
place where there is to be close living such as the military or prison,
health and sanitation are paramount.  

	Next of course, take of your clothes and shower.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:11 PDT 1996
Article: 71973 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests murdered in Dachau
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:12:08 GMT
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On 5 Oct 1996 08:49:43 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L.
Power) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>>"Left-wing extremists near Madrid giving their clenched fist salute
>>after burning of convent property:   An example of the anti-catholic
>>feeling which has inspired the burning of many churches and convents throughout
>>the country.

>Is this supposed to inspire feelings of horror? The Nazis, learning a
>lesson from Vlad Tsepesh, filled synagogues with people before burning
>them.

	You appear to be a bit incoherent here.  What does Tsepesh have to do wtih
burning synagogues?  When did the Nazis act use the tactic only against
jewish partisans?  

	What makes you think you are doing anything but saying the losing side was
innocent?  

=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:12 PDT 1996
Article: 71974 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alternate realities
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:14:30 GMT
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:38:14 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <534mgo$msa@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>         Consider for a moment two extremes for Europe in WW II.  
>> 
>>         1)  When liberated no Jews were found.
>> 
>>         2)  There was no holocaust, no extermination of anyone.
>> 
>>         How different would the war look?  

>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>This belongs in alt.history.what-if
> 
>It's fantasy.

	Gee, the topic cop has spoken.  
 
>When you're ready to talk FACTS, post them here.

	You mean like this one?

On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote:

>Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016
>Last-modified: 1993/03/22

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>             (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org)

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

>                THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
>                             Shimon Kanz

[highlights only]

>In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of
>Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

	Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.  

>                        SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

>"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating
>and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender
>existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which
>I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory
>throughout my life."

    It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was 
permitted a meaningful crossexamination.  This appears to 
contradict a latter statement.  

>The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow
>accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly
>exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the
>bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and
>humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during
>the work in the camp Postak.

	"Stone him.  Stone him."  

	"Jehovah!  Jehovah!"

	Stoned?  Who biblical.  But maybe he really just inhaled.  

>The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the
>"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

>Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered
>automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her
>delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures?
>From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

    She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding 
prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so 
many of the witnesses.  

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

    Devilish laughter.  Melodrama testified to in court.  The 
evil always laugh as devilishly as they can.  Ming the Merciless 
did it too.  

    Is any adult to take this seriously?  Of course not.  Only 
holohuggers believe this sort of crap.  

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

>Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons.
>They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. 
	
    And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the 
engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation.  

And
>when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The
>devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing.

    Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise 
of the engine.  Real true holohugger fantasy life here.  And they 
could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons.  This 
woman certainly has to be paid for this performance.  

>On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons
>and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to
>begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

    Ah, yes, dancing.  Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt.  
Very efficient these Nazis.  

>Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her
>words shiver and only an echoe  is heard of those awful days which
>had become from day to day more terrible.

	A true whacko so far.  

>They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed
>wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the
>slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow
>took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one,
>neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers
>how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

    So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons 
when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed 
wagons?  This person is truly psychotic.  

>Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers
>were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the
>Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did
>not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring
>taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger
>nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon
>you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist".

	Certainly fingers were just pulled off.  

	Tell me the truth.  This was written by Stephen King, right?  

>The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and
>shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it
>will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

	But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it.  

	But here it is not a secret and they do know about it.  
	
    It is also an interesting speech.  Maybe it translates to a 
chant.  

    You will note below that no one understood what was being 
said in the same testimony.  

>Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the
>year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three
>women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his
>finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for
>profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his
>assistants broke out in laughter: 

     Most likely Satanic laughter.

"We will teach you to be a
>laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and
>Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium,
>but she managed to get them out of the line.

    In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no 
knowledge of what happened after that point.  The gassing all her 
fantasy.  

>The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their
>belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few
>craftsmen were allowed to survive.

	But she has no way of knowing.  

>                 SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

>We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German
>officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the
>laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were
>distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in
>her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you
>can".

    They organized a non-existant laudry and then that 
non-existant laundry was expanded.  

    Note here that the judge leads the witness.  A typical war 
crimes tactic.  

>The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She
>feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a
>Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while
>writing every word going out of her mouth.

>The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what
>she has seen with her own eyes. 
	
	Who is it that does not want hearsay?  

But how can she not tell about the
>shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. 
	
    That is a question and she can not tell because she did not 
witness it.  What in the hell does the author think witness 
means?  

The heartbreaking
>shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning
>penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that
>they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

	But she was not raped.  Must have been real ugly.  

>Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday
>a transport arrived with thursty  people as it had been for several
>days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some
>to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was
>already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which
>served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the
>excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty  people of
>the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each
>other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was
>shot by the Germans.

    And all of this from what she did not witness.  Quite amazing  
that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital 
trials.  Even more interesting that crossexamination was not 
permitted.  

>                        HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

>The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor
>after the revolt are horrifying.

>They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last
>moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell
>about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven
>to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their
>own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the
>Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his
>arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and
>they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was
>supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place
>at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he
>ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks,
>called for the orchestra, gathered the  women and told them to sing and
>dance.

    Thank you, Steven Speilberg.  Jewrassic Pork lives.  Force to 
sing and dance by a personification of evil.  Right out of 
witchcraft stories.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71980 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: More WWII Revisionism from our Commie-loving friends
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 23:12:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 05 Oct 1996 08:49:33 -0500, Joel Rosenberg  wrote:

>[page 18]: "Kurt Bohme, probably the best-informed expert on the treatment
>of German POW's in American hands concludes that Eisenhower and the
>U.S. Army had to improvise for months in taking care of the masses of
>prisoners to prevent a catastrophe:  'In spite of all the misery that occurred
>behind the barbed wire, the catastrophe was prevented; the anticipated 
>mass deaths did not happen.'   ... There are examples of mass deaths among
>POW's in World War II, particularly on the eastern front and in the Pacific
>theater.  In 1941 alone, 2 million of 3.3 million Soviet POW's -- about 60
>percent -- died in the hands of the German army or were executed by the
>special SS killer commandos (Einsatzgruppen) in collusion with the
>[German] army. By 1944,  only 1.05 million of 5 million Russian POW's
>in German hands had survived. Of some 2 to 3 million German POW's in
>Russian hands, more than 1 million died -- a mortality rate that may be as
>high as 50 percent.  ...  The editors of this volume think that as many as
>56,000 German POW's -- out  [page 19] of the 5 million captured at the
>end of the war -- may have died in American captivity in the European
>theater in 1945.  This rough estimate of a mortality rate of slightly more
>than 1 percent would roughly match the mortality of American POW's
>in German hands.

	Intereesting that the only source of the information on what happened to
Russian troops is the Soviet Union.  Thus the author gives complete
credence to Soviet sources.  This being the same Soviet Union that executed
those of their own troops who had to be forceably repatriated.  And that in
addition to the execution of all of their officers who had been captured. 

	It is difficult to imagine a less credible source of information on any
subject with any form of propaganda value than the Soviet Union.  The
propaganda value of the treatment of POWs should be obvious to even the
holohuggers.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71981 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Continuing myths
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 23:26:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:23:39 GMT, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>   [There is no question in my mind that is a matter of time 
>>until I find a primary, mystical source for six million dead that 
>>even predates the post WW I speech by the governor of New York.  
>>It simply shows up in too many impossible places not to have a 
>>primary and unrelated source.]  

>Interesting assertion, Matt.
>What WW I speech?

	Speech below.  

>You have every reason to be proud of you homepage(s).
>Great job.

	Thank you.

>Chris_________________________________________ 

          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:


                    THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
                           By MARTIN H. GLYNN
                  (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)


     "From across the sea SIX MILLION men and women call to us for help,
and eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread.

     [...]  "These children, these men and women are our FELLOW-MEMBERS OF
THE HUMAN FAMILY, with the same claim on life as we, the same
susceptibility to the winter's cold, the same PROPENSITY TO DEATH before
the fangs of hunger.  Within them reside the illimitable possibilities for
the advancement of the human race as naturally would reside in SIX MILLION
human beings.  WE MAY NOT BE THEIR KEEPERS BUT WE OUGHT TO BE THEIR
HELPERS."

     [...]  "IN THE FACE OF DEATH, IN THE THROES OF STARVATION there is no
place for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical differences
of race.  In this catastrophy, when SIX MILLION HUMAN BEINGS are being
WHIRLED TOWARD THE GRAVE by a CRUEL AND RELENTLESS FATE, only the most
idealistic promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the
hand.

     "SIX MILLION MEN AND WOMEN ARE DYING from lack of the necessaries of
life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread.  And THIS FATE is upon
them through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, through no transgression of the laws of
God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a BIGOTED LUST FOR
JEWISH BLOOD.

     "In this THREATENED HOLOCAUST OF HUMAN LIFE, forgotten are the
niceties of philosophical distinction, forgotten are the differences of
historical interpretation; and the determination to help the helpless, to
shelter the homeless, to clothe the naked and to feed the hungry becomes a
religion at whose altar men of every race can worship and women of every
creed can kneel..."



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:14 PDT 1996
Article: 71982 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust $$$$$ Holocaust $$$$$ Holocaust $$$$$
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 23:33:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:26:32 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>							
>	              
>	          "U.S. to Launch Inquiry Into Nazi Loot"
>                        L.A.Times, Oct. 5, 1996

>Review: Document search
>will try to pin down U.S.
>role in what happened to 
>assets, many seized 
>from Jews.

>	Washington - The Clinton administration on Friday ordered an
>urgent search of half-century-old documents to try to determine what
>happened to Nazi gold and other wealth - much of it stolen from
>victims of the Holocaust - in the hectic days following WW II.

	And it appears lost to the world that even in the best case only half of
such gold would go to jews.  It will be difficult to find the other six
million recipients.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 71985 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 23:43:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:25:32 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) related:

>	'The strain on the furnaces was colossal' 

>	Moran ponders:
>	The strain on Mr.Keren's brain cell must be colossal.

	This entire "strain game" is amusing but ignorant.  It is an oven.  There
is nothing to strain.  It is as foolish as saying Thanksgiving dinner puts
a strain on the oven.  

	What happens is simply that the fire brick would wear out.  The wear is a
function of time and temperature and so is the cremation capacity.  In
other words an oven is good for a fixed number of bodies whether a few
hours a day or continuously.    

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:16 PDT 1996
Article: 71986 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 00:10:07 GMT
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 17:59:26 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <5345sn$fto@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> On the other hand, if I had made up a name, Keren would not be able to tell
>> the difference.  But even so, I do not use holohugger tactics.  

>You're right - you don't. You resort to harassment, extortion, uttering
>threats, mailbombs, and of course, the continual lying.

>But then, as has been pointed out to you in the past, you are little more
>than an admitted troll:

>         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
>         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
>         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
>         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
>         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."

>                      - Giwer, Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>

>Of course it gets worse - not only are you a troll, but you are a troll
>who resorts to continual lies, harassment, threats, and general
>prevarication in an attempt to deny what you know to be truth - you,
>little man, are completely devoid of anything resembling decency,
>morality, and integrity.

>For confirmation and reference, please examine the copious documentation
>available at 
          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:


                    THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
                           By MARTIN H. GLYNN
                  (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)


     "From across the sea SIX MILLION men and women call to us for help,
and
eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread.

     [...]  "These children, these men and women are our FELLOW-MEMBERS OF
THE HUMAN FAMILY, with the same claim on life as we, the same
susceptibility
to the winter's cold, the same PROPENSITY TO DEATH before the fangs of
hunger.  Within them reside the illimitable possibilities for the
advancement of the human race as naturally would reside in SIX MILLION
human
beings.  WE MAY NOT BE THEIR KEEPERS BUT WE OUGHT TO BE THEIR HELPERS."

     [...]  "IN THE FACE OF DEATH, IN THE THROES OF STARVATION there is no
place for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical differences
of
race.  In this catastrophy, when SIX MILLION HUMAN BEINGS are being WHIRLED
TOWARD THE GRAVE by a CRUEL AND RELENTLESS FATE, only the most idealistic
promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the hand.

     "SIX MILLION MEN AND WOMEN ARE DYING from lack of the necessaries of
life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread.  And THIS FATE is upon
them through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, through no transgression of the laws of
God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a BIGOTED LUST FOR
JEWISH BLOOD.

     "In this THREATENED HOLOCAUST OF HUMAN LIFE, forgotten are the
niceties
of philosophical distinction, forgotten are the differences of historical
interpretation; and the determination to help the helpless, to shelter the
homeless, to clothe the naked and to feed the hungry becomes a religion at
whose altar men of every race can worship and women of every creed can
kneel..."

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:17 PDT 1996
Article: 72012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Population growth and Jews
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:38:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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	We have on the table the growth of the jewish population of Europe up to
1860 at three times the growth rate of the rest of Europe.  We also have an
extrapolation of the population to 1940 at that same growth rate to a total
of 12 million.  

	Some months ago we were pointing out the "I lost two million relatives"
claims.  At that time we came up with a worst case 1/2 of the Jewish
population of Europe having been holocausted.  12 vice 6 million, voila!
1/2 the jewish population of Europe.  

	And there we have the confirmation of the revisionist ridicule of the "I
lost two million relatives" stories.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 72015 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What if again (despite the fat topic cop)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:44:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	What if after 12 years the Nazis had been able to find and exterminate all
of the German Jews?  

	Would that not mean that there would be no Jews in Germany in 1945?  

	Ah, but I forgot, this is the alternate reality.  There were German Jews in
Germany in 1945.  12 years of effort was wasted.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:19 PDT 1996
Article: 72016 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big Gas Chamber
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:50:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:32:07 GMT, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
wrote:


>I should have known better myself since on page 156 it says that
>Sonderkommandos dragged the victims to the SS marksmen, where they
>were shot in the head.  "Dead or still alive, the victims were then
>thrown on the burning pyre.  The majority of the victims were in fact
>burned alive.  More than six thousand victims a day were put to death
>in this fashion " (Nyiszli, Auschwitz, pp 68-71).

	Excuse me but you are apparently unaware of an official change of
terminology.  The term Sonderkommando has been officially changed to Jewish
collaborator for the purpose of accuracy.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:19 PDT 1996
Article: 72019 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Swiss II
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:51:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5376uh$5hb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 04 Oct 1996 20:04:02 -0500, Joel Rosenberg  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>> 
>> 
>> 	The Jews have collected billions of dollars from Germany with the
>> Holocaust premise. 

>Darn.  


>And I only got a few lousy thousand from them, and I had to write
>books to do it.  

>Can you, like, arrange for me to get my share, Tommy?  Thanks a bunch
>in advance...

	The money has gone to Israel and as Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandel, Zionists
do not care about Jews, only about Zionism.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:20 PDT 1996
Article: 72020 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:56:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
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On 5 Oct 1996 03:09:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>  	I have only heard of one movie and it would be in the no longer used
>>  category as it was made by the US Army and showed a gas chamber.  And 
>since
>>  the US had no access to Poland ... 

>	Then you are as ignorant as Moran.  How dare you claim that you 
>have gone over the IMT transcripts when you have no knowledge of the case 
>presented at the trial.  If you did the research that you claim to have done you 
>would not make such silly mistakes.

>	Read a book, asshole.

	Listen up, dickless,  There was only one movie.  It was fully discussed in
this conference.  It was made by the US Army.  

	Now back to your violation of your oath as an officer of the court, it
appears it is correct that on Yom Kippur Jews swear not to be bound by any
oath to a gentile.  Otherwise you would be bound by your oath to report my
"crime."  

	But you are violating your oath, dickless.  Perhaps you need a refresher
course in the responsibilities of an officer of the court.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:21 PDT 1996
Article: 72021 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 03:03:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5377l4$d4g@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52b0ff$6l5@opera.iinet.net.au> <324dcf15.45849907@199.0.216.204>  <530o4l$1i9s@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <53486o$nh6@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <325f7fb1.8507113@199.0.216.204>
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:35:14 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <53486o$nh6@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com
>>(Rich Graves) wrote:
>>
>>> ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) writes:
>>> >
>>> >>>>>IRVING TACKLES PM ON SPEECH
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>Right-Wing British historian David Irving has challenged Prime
>>> >>>>>Minister John Howard to back his claims on freedom of speech by
>>> >>>>>allowing him to visit Australia.
>>> >
>>> >For accuracy , David irving has described himself as a "mild fascist".
>>> 
>>> Do you have a reference for this? In his response to Shallit, Irving
>>> denies ever saying this. 
>>
>>"In 1981 Irving, a self-described 'moderate fascist,' established his own
>>right-wing political party, founded on his belief he was meant to be a
>>future leader of Britain." (Lipstadt, _Denying the Holocaust_, p.161.) 

>	Lipstadt said a lot of things. Does she accept the challenge for
>debate? Will she ever put herself into the position to answer for
>inquiry on accountablitiy of the contents of her book?  No.

	Re: Jewish soap.  The suds of the victims should be proof enough.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:22 PDT 1996
Article: 72022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 03:05:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
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On 05 Oct 1996 12:17:43 -0500, Joel Rosenberg  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>> 
>> 	Lipstadt said a lot of things. Does she accept the challenge for
>> debate? Will she ever put herself into the position to answer for
>> inquiry on accountablitiy of the contents of her book?  No.

>Giwerese aside, of course she is open to inquiry on her writings;
>they've been widely reviewed, as well as peer-reviewed.    

	Excuse me.  I have yet to see a post from any of her papers presented here.
They have all been from here books.  Books are not peer reviewed.  

	Do you have anything else?  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:23 PDT 1996
Article: 72043 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Giwerese from Tommy
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 05:27:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 05 Oct 1996 10:38:49 -0500, Joel Rosenberg  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>> 
>> 	Among his other books [David Irving] is a historian. 

>No, not even when he's among his other books is David Irving a
>historian.  


>He holds no academic credentials in history or anything else; he does
>not submit his work for peer review; he is not bound by nor does he
>adhere to codes of professional conduct of historians.

	Excuse me, jew traitor, but neither Pressac nor Hilberg hold academic
credentials in history.  And books are NOT subject to peer review.  And the
only quotes from Pressac and Hilberg have been from books.  

	So just what is it you are trying to say about Irving?  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:24 PDT 1996
Article: 72046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Is there a jewish political agenda?
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:09:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
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	It is often ridiculed that there is a jewish political agenda in this
country or in this world for that matter.  

	But at the same time it is taken as a given that the fundie christians (who
are by polling data 63% registered democrats) have a political agenda.  

	What is it that makes jews so strange at not to have a political agenda
when they (again by the polls) are 90% registered democrats and vote 83%
for democrat candidates as an average across elections.  Why are they no
different from every other identifiable group such as the blacks with a
similar registration and voting pattern?  

	Just what is the problem with pointing out that as a whole jews will vote
in favor of the pro-Israel part of their agenda as much a christian fundies
will vote in favor of banning abortion as part of their agenda?

	And of course both pro-Israel and anti-abortion are equally dispicable.  

	But then, this is a democracy.  If we elect leaders who will support Israel
that is no different from electing those who will prohibit abortion as both
sides have abjured an absolute moral standard.  

	It can be accepted that many unthinking American Jews have bought the idea
that supporting Israel is a good thing for the US despite the ongoing
espionage and resale of that information to folks such as the Russians
leading to the death of US operatives.  It is no different than selling
fundies on the idea that are on the side of god for trying to outlaw brain
sucking abortions.  

	So far the discourse has been civil in that no one has compared
brain-sucking abortions to lethal rubber bullets.  

	[Sidebar:  The coverup of Waco is in part due to this.  The manufacturer
stopped selling CS gas to Israel because they used it in a lethal manner
against Palestinians.  That lethal manner is the same the FBI used it
agianst the Branch Davidians.  You can not condemn one method without
condemning the other.]








=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:25 PDT 1996
Article: 72052 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zundel's material
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:36:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:15:32 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>cjsaunde@netcom.ca (Christopher Saunders) wrote:

>> Please provide me with some examples of Ernst Zundel's "outdated and
>> inaccurate...propaganda."  Everyone says that he is a liar and that
>> his material is "propaganda," but they have never proven it.  I am
>> particularly interested in Mr. Zundel's material on Nazis and UFOs.

>Yes, the UFO material is one example of something inaccurate, I suppose
>(though sadly not outdated).

>His clinging to the Leuchter Report while every other "revisionist"
>slowly and quietly turns away from it is another.

>His presentation of the testimony of Emil Lachout, which has since been
>revealed to be a fabrication out of thin air, is another.

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/flying-saucers/
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ZTU/leucha.html
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/01.ftp.kulaszka.6M/33.Leuchter http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/01.ftp.kulaszka.6M/29.Lachout
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/austrian/austrian-resistance-archives/lachout-document.html

>That should be enough reading material for a while.  Drop us a note in
>alt.revisionism (and feel free to cc me in email) when you want to
>discuss this stuff.

	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:26 PDT 1996
Article: 72053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:37:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <537k5q$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52c813$lm5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53140m$jin@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <5323so$ild@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <533ems$8ku@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <534afn$ji@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <536agi$mua@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 5 Oct 1996 19:47:46 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>:::::::::: 	No. "Ridiculous" is next door where Moran is posting.
>:::::::::It's "getting hit on the head" lessons in here. . .
>::::::::No it isn't!!
>:::::::you knew that 
>::::::No I didn't!!
>:::::did two!
>::::Did knot!!
>::::Derek "It's about this parrot..." Bell
>:::It's only pining.
>::Oh no it isn't - I tell you this parrot's dead!!
>:It is not. It is only moraning.
>What kind of Giwer do you take me for?

>	Derek "I tell you, it's popped it's clogs, climbed up the curtain and
>		joined the choir eternal!" Bell
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:27 PDT 1996
Article: 72055 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:37:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 115
Message-ID: <537k5b$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52c813$lm5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53140m$jin@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <5323so$ild@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <533ems$8ku@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <534afn$ji@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 4 Oct 1996 17:35:03 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>>:::::::: 	No. "Ridiculous" is next door where Moran is posting.
>>:::::::It's "getting hit on the head" lessons in here. . .
>>::::::No it isn't!!
>>:::::you knew that 
>>::::No I didn't!!
>>:::did two!
>>::Did knot!!
>>::Derek "It's about this parrot..." Bell
>>:It's only pining.
>>Oh no it isn't - I tell you this parrot's dead!!
>It is not. It is only moraning.
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/
	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:28 PDT 1996
Article: 72056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:36:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <537k4j$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52c813$lm5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <52u97j$nle@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <52v8t8$1i2@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <53140m$jin@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <5323so$ild@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <533ems$8ku@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 4 Oct 1996 17:41:00 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>:::::::: 	No. "Ridiculous" is next door where Moran is posting.
>:::::::It's "getting hit on the head" lessons in here. . .
>::::::No it isn't!!
>:::::you knew that 
>::::No I didn't!!
>:::did two!
>::Did knot!!
>::Derek "It's about this parrot..." Bell
>:It's only pining.
>Oh no it isn't - I tell you this parrot's dead!!

>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:30 PDT 1996
Article: 72057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:37:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <537k65$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52c813$lm5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <533ems$8ku@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <534afn$ji@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <536agi$mua@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <536fmf$cv6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 5 Oct 1996 13:16:15 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>>:::::::::: 	No. "Ridiculous" is next door where Moran is posting.
>>:::::::::It's "getting hit on the head" lessons in here. . .
>>::::::::No it isn't!!
>>:::::::you knew that 
>>::::::No I didn't!!
>>:::::did two!
>>::::Did knot!!
>>::::Derek "It's about this parrot..." Bell
>>:::It's only pining.
>>::Oh no it isn't - I tell you this parrot's dead!!
>>:It is not. It is only moraning.
>>What kind of Giwer do you take me for?
>one that is only pining.
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/
	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:31 PDT 1996
Article: 72058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:37:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <537k6j$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52c813$lm5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53140m$jin@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <5323so$ild@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <533e0u$heq@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <534aem$io@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 4 Oct 1996 17:34:30 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>>:::::::: 	No. "Ridiculous" is next door where Moran is posting.
>>:::::::It's "getting hit on the head" lessons in here. . .
>>::::::No it isn't!!
>>:::::you knew that 
>>::::No I didn't!!
>>:::did two!
>>::Did knot!!
>>:It's only pining.
>>It's nailed to the bloody perch, you fool!
>fatbroad!
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/
	Lets review the bidding on Flying Saucers.  

    After the war Germany was viewed as a treasure trove of 
advanced science and technology.  It was known that the US did 
not have access to all of it as a good fraction fell into Soviet 
hands and they were not advertising what they got.  

    Among the items that were recovered were drawings and some 
prototypes of saucer shaped flying machines.  They were no more 
stable that US attempts to build such a shaped flying machine.  

    To make this complete, let me point out that antarctica was 
largely terra incognito at the end of WW II.  

    In 1948 a formation of disk shaped objects was reported in 
the area of Mt. Shasta.  First note that flying in formation is 
almost exclusively a military activity.  

    Was the report laughed at?  On the contrary it was taken 
seriously and the US military opened an investigation to 
determine if such disks, quickly dubbed flying saucers, were a 
military threat to the security of the US.  Further one of the 
possible origins considered was that they were the perfected 
versions of those found in Germany.  

    In the following years UFO reports were taken seriously by 
the military.  They were being reported worldwide.  Connections 
were made between them and the foo fighters of WW II.  It would 
have been irresponsible to ignore such reports.  

    Take a look at the times.  A surprise attack had gotten the 
US into WW II.  A country considered composed of scientific 
geniuses had provided the primary talent to build the bomb that 
had ended the war.  Compared to the bomb a perfected flying 
machine was trivial.  

    It took nearly ten years before the military determined they 
were not a threat to US security and assigned a lieutentant the 
exciting duty of responding to civilian UFO investigations.  And 
in those ten years the military went from "we don't know what 
they are" to being able to explain almost all of the cases and 
being able to rule out the threatening possibilities.  And of 
course one of their most telling arguments was the complete lack 
of physical evidence despite Roswell.  

    Another thing, after WW II it was known that many German 
scientists and quite a few political types were unaccounted for 
and, again, the Soviets were not participating in the accounting 
process.  Nor were South American countries volunteering 
information.  

    Clearly there were germans hiding out in the world save the 
secret "bases" were in South America.  

    Clearly the US military was seriously considering the 
possibility they were the devices of German scientists but more 
likely piloted by Russians.  Piloted by Russians solved the 
"secret base" problem for the military.  

    Now into all of this came people putting serious 
considerations together in different ways.  German scientists, 
disk shaped (almost) flying machines, reports of seeing disk 
shaped flying objects and Germans hiding in secret places were 
all real.  As with any puzzle people try to solve it.  

    Antarctica was not mapped leaving plenty of places to hide.  
What did they use for power?  They were working on nuclear power, 
were they not?  And, no, it was conclusively known that all such 
research had been uncovered as there was always what was captured 
by the Russians.  

    A hollow earth?  That idea had been around at least since 
Jules Verne and it is unlikely he invented it.  Certainly science 
could rule out a hollow earth but not undiscovered caverns in the 
earth.  How big they might be was anyone's guess.  And there was 
enough not known about the interior of the earth at the time to 
leave a lot of possibilities.  

    In other words what appears strange today, as strange as the 
holocaust will appear a few decades from now, was a serious 
consideration as a possible solution to the puzzle.  It was 
certainly not much of a variation from a possibility the US 
military was considering.  

    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:32 PDT 1996
Article: 72059 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: silly touchy-feely homepage
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:41:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <537kdv$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:32 PDT 1996
Article: 72060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: silly touchy-feely home page of an idiot
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:53:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

http://www.winternet.com/~joelr

	It continues.  A fat, bearded, ex-hippie jew trying to attract a jewess as
nothing else would be attracted to this silling shit.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:33 PDT 1996
Article: 72061 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust / Zionism connection
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:55:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <537l74$g4g@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <325550d8.20311814@199.0.216.204> <5344l6$atj@news.enter.net>
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On 4 Oct 1996 22:55:34 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>  
>>  	Right here we have the Simon Wiesenthal telling Clinton, in the
>>  open limelight of our medias,  "No Arafat Invitation until PLO Charter
>>  Revoked", and Clinton obeying.

>	Hey, Moron do you know what the PLO Charter states?

	Do you know that Zionism put buying land over helping jews in the
holocaust, dickless?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:34 PDT 1996
Article: 72062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Sliders
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 07:05:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
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	So how do we get to a reality where holocaust witness testimony is
possible? 

	What kind of reality would that be like?  

	Trust me, I would not let a contract to the Nazis to eliminate all the jews
in Germany if after 12 years they can not get the job done.  

	What an incompetent operation.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:34 PDT 1996
Article: 72063 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is there no revisionist version of Nizkor?
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 07:12:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <537m7n$o1p@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <5206v6$b2q@orion.cybercom.net>  <526v4e$pqg@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <533qnr$50j@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 23:06:20 GMT, cjsaunde@netcom.ca (Christopher Saunders)
wrote:

>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>>	The fact that Zundel has been refuted.

>I disagree.  The only way Zundel can be CONCLUSIVELY refuted is in a
>face-to-face debate.  

	There is the ever present holohugger fantasy that s aimple response is a
refutation.  And then a presumption that a refutation is a negation.  In
any event, these nerfbrained holohuggers believe that anything, even a
DUHHH, is a valid response.  No one, no even they, have ever said they were
very bright.  






=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:35 PDT 1996
Article: 72064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zundel and UFOs - naziufo.uue (00/13)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 07:29:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <537n70$15a@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <533rkl$5ie@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 23:21:42 GMT, cjsaunde@netcom.ca (Christopher Saunders)
wrote:

>I recently discovered Ernst Zundel's theory about "Hitler's Antarctic
>U.F.O. bases," and other similar topics.  I have made a package of
>information that I captured from the Nizkor WWW page.  I would
>appreciate a response from a revisionist who can give me an
>intelligent response to Mr. Zundel's claims.

	The year must also be taken into account.  For nearly a decade the US
military took it seriously.  

>Let me say that I support Mr. Zundel's right to free speech.  I
>believe that he should never have been dragged through court for
>publishing a book.  If he wants to question the "Holocaust," then it
>is his right.  However, if Mr. Zundel DID publish information on "Nazi
>UFOs" and such things, then I do believe that his credibility as an
>authority on the "Holocaust' has been damaged.  I can't remember the
>exact words, but there is a Roman legal principal that says something
>to the effect of "false in one thing, false in everything."  

	The principle only applied to the case before the court.  Not to every
matter in the life of the person.  The principle is that if there is one
clear case of perjury in the testimony then all of the testimony can be
disregarded.  

>The "Holocaust" is a serious issue, and anyone who seeks to refute it
>MUST have credibility, or he damages the integrity of revisionism.  I
>am not suggesting that Ernst Zundel does not have good information on
>the "Holocaust."  I'm just saying that if he published erroneous
>information about "Nazi UFOs," one has to scrutinize his claims about
>the "Holocaust," to make sure that they too are not erroneous.

	In what year?  Stop worrying about ti.  If it were continued today that
would be an issue.  If it were only seeing them, Jimmy Carter said he did
without qualification.  

	I have seen UFOs but with qualification it means nothing other than I have
not identified what I say.  Is there anyone who can say they have
identified EVERYTHING they have seen in the sky?  If so, they lie.  

>For the record, I question the official version of the "Holocaust."
>The main reason why I question the "Holocaust" is because of the
>world-wide attempts by various parties to stifle honest, fair debate
>on this subject.  I believe in intellectual freedom, and I believe
>that NOTHING in history is too sacred to be immune fron questioning or
>scrutinzation.

	For the record this UFO association is a knowing a deliberate attempt,
right out of the PROTOCOLS, to discredit the person on all subjects based
upon one subject.

	Do not forget, Ernst Zundel is, all by his antarctic Nazi UFO base self, a
threat to the security of Canada.  

	That says more about Canada than it does about Zundel.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:36 PDT 1996
Article: 72067 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Rev Bobbie Sch*ber
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 07:54:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <537omj$akg@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52p15r$49f@news.ios.com> <52pked$ni4@daily-planet.nodak.edu> <52qdij$o7o@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:72067 alt.christnet:111908

On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:26:10 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <52qdij$o7o@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>> [non-existent h*bergroup "alt.fan.enst-zundel" removed]
>> 
>> In article <52pked$ni4@daily-planet.nodak.edu>, 
>> dwelch@badlands.NoDak.edu (Dwight R. Welch) wrote:
>> 
>> >Bobby h*ber (NO@thank.you.e-mail.bombs) wrote:
>> 
>> >:   Notice they do not catolog communists,who are the world biggest 
>> >: murdering slime on earth. Notice the communist style of thinking they 
>> >: have and the constent ad hominem attacts, some of them clearly on 
>> >: children and young adults.
>> 
>> >?? as a socialist myself, i'm curious what attacts on children have been 
>> >made?
>> 
>>       Matt Giwer attacked an autistic child and his mother here.

>And I'm the mother.
> 
>And Matt Giwer attacked me and my son, because he is too stupid to
>understand what autism is.

	You tried to use your son as the filthy slut you are.  

	You pretend you are unique.  One of the women I courted had a truly
autistic son and we hugged and I know what autism is despite your use of
your son in this revisionist discussion.  

	He and I hugged.  I saw his inner being.  He would never have been upset
but forgiven or forgotten or never felt it was important or whatever he did
inside.  But there would never have been any reponse. 

	He was too good for that.  

	On the other hand, you are a lying bitch.  YOU made a claim about your son.
I pointed out only that your claim was impossible.  I did not attack your
son, I attacked you as a liar about your son.  

	To repeat the first, you are a silly slut who attempted to use your son and
that is the Jewish way as you are demonstrating.  
	
	You are a lying bitch and unfit to live but you will continue to live only
to suffer with what you have done.  

	You have used your own flesh.  That which grew in you and suckled from you,
you have reduced to a debating point.  Your "love" for him is only as far
as you can use him.  

	He is a tool for your disgrace in producing him.  You pretend he can do
what he can not.  You even guide his hand over the keyboard in the
discredited practice.  He types what you want him to type.  

	Sorry about that, little fool.  You son is autistic and the only thing you
can do is lie to yourself that you can get communication from him.  You are
very desperate and you are very shallow.  

	Your son is not communicating with you.  You are guiding him and salving
your own ego.  Your son is no better than a loving puppy.  Whatever mind is
there is incapable of dealing with reality even you as reality.  

	You have asked for this, you have now gotten it.  Keep it up and I will be
even more blunt about autism in general and your son in particular.  It is
your choice.  

	I can get very blunt about the abberant automata nature of the authistic.  
 
>He accused me of "using" my child by mentioning him in this forum, then
>accused me of "making him up."

	Which did do and continue to do in this post.  

>Those were the most minor comments he made. The rest were substantially
>worse. And they're all archived in DejaNews.

	It is difficult to conceive (mentally) of anything worse than you have
done.  Physically you have conceived a pawn in your game.  The least you
could have done was get the father's permission if you could remember his
name and find him.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:37 PDT 1996
Article: 72069 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: in case you have forgetten
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 08:02:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	The littel jew animal Marduk continues his telephone harrassing calls to me
and my son's empolyer.  He continues to forge email and netcon.ca continues
to permit the email harrassment. 

	Marduk, being the quintessenial holohugger, continues in the activity they
all know best.  This was best stated by Alec Grynspan when he acknowledged
his mail bombing but claimed it was other than mailbombing.  

	BTW holohuggers, expect real soon now an entire website devoted to
hologugger attempts to censor the internet.  I have enough information now
to support jewish as the thread of the most common internet abuse.  But I
will be patient to get enough information to make clear even to the
holohuggers that they can not simply say it is unproven.  

	The one common thread will be holocaust resisionism 
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct  6 08:49:37 PDT 1996
Article: 72073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: the inventor
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 08:11:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <537pl4$gb1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	There is some confusion as to the score.  In 1985, I invented "fundie" to
describe Christian Fundamentalists.   Despite the claims that it was
perjorative, the name stuck.

	So too have I invented holohugger to describe anyone who subscribes to all
the conflicting testimony regarding the holocaust, if any more than the
holocauset of WW I.  

	Hey, holohuggers, you have been labeled and I did it.  Do not forget me.  I
did it to you.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:17 PDT 1996
Article: 72202 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kramer on the half-shell
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:03:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
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	It appears that all of the "guilt" of Kramer at Bergen-Belsen rests totally
and completely upon the British claim that the Brits were able to do
something in five days that Kramer did not try to do in the last thirty
days.  

	Is there some other point upon which his "guilt" lies?  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 72203 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:03:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <539vge$mds@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sun, 06 Oct 96 07:39:34 GMT, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander
Baron) wrote:

>In article <536tf1$dki@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>           mgiwer@worldnet.att.net "Matt  Giwer" writes:

>>                     THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
>>                            By MARTIN H. GLYNN
>>                   (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)

>It's a right this article, I got a copy of the original from the Newspaper
>Library. Does anyone know who dug it out? I think it appeared in The Barnes
>Review a while back. I did have a comp subscription to this but I'm persona
>non grata with Willis Carto now.

	I have only this.  I post them as I find them and then watch the holohugger
response to determine authenticity.  Given the response, this one is so
authentic it must be carved in stone some place in New York.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:19 PDT 1996
Article: 72204 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:03:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <539vgj$mds@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 6 Oct 1996 04:27:07 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 5 Oct 1996 03:09:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>  
>>  >	Then you are as ignorant as Moran.  How dare you claim that you 
>>  >have gone over the IMT transcripts when you have no knowledge of the 
>case 
>>  >presented at the trial.  If you did the research that you claim to have done 
>you 
>>  >would not make such silly mistakes.
>>  
>>  >	Read a book, asshole.
>>  
>>  	Listen up, dickless,  There was only one movie.  It was fully discussed 
>in
>>  this conference.  It was made by the US Army.  

>	You are incorrect -- as usual.  I suggest you read a book or two on the 
>trial.  I suggest you find out what happened in the court-room on February 19, 
>1946.  Perhaps you will also explain why Gilbert in "Nuremberg Diary" devotes 
>four pages to the reactions of the defendants to the showing of a film that does 
>not exist.

>  
>>  	Now back to your violation of your oath as an officer of the court, it
>>  appears it is correct that on Yom Kippur Jews swear not to be bound by any
>>  oath to a gentile.  Otherwise you would be bound by your oath to report my
>>  "crime."  

>	As haas been pointed out, you criminal,  you are incorrect.
>  
>>  	But you are violating your oath, dickless.  Perhaps you need a 
>refresher
>>  course in the responsibilities of an officer of the court.  

>	Please give us one.  We need a good laugh.

	I was unaware that an officer of the court in Pennsylvania can have
knowledge of a crime and refuse to report it.  Please confirm this,
dickless.  

	Or at least have the honesty to admit that your claim that I have committed
a crime is your contrived libel.  

	You constructed your own rock and hard place and put yourself in the
middle.  You have just repeated it.  

	You are either libeling me or violating your oath as an officer of the
court.  Or you are not an officer of the court as I have always maintained.


	As long as you fail to report my "crime" you are affirming that you are not
an officer of the court, that you are not an attorney.  You are admitting
you are another in the long list of lying holohuggers and a dickless one at
that.  

	Come on, dickless, report my crime.  You cowardly little dickless jew, pick
up the phone and report my crime.  

	Hey, dickless, you are giving all jews a bad name.  You claim a crime,
report it, dickless, jew coward.  Be a German Mensch and pick up the
telephone you little dickless jew shit.  

	What is the matter?  Katz got your lying Jew tongue?  

	Come on, lying jewboy, report my crime.  Follow your oath as an officer of
the court and prove that jews fulfill their oaths to gentiles for the first
time.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:20 PDT 1996
Article: 72205 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: YFE and oaths
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:05:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	Now Yale F. Ediken is a self proclaimed attorney practicing before the
courts in Pennsylvania.  

	He has also publically stated that I have committed a crime.

	He has also reported this "crime" to my service proivider, Worldnet, with
the claim that he is an attorney.  

	However, as an officer of the court under his oath before the bar, he has
REFUSED to report my "crime" even after a week of my publically demanding
that he report me.  

	Mr. Ediken has promoted his lies to both NETCOM and AT&T and still refuses
to report this crime to law enforcement authorities as is his SWORN duty as
an officer of the court.  
	
	It is clear that Mr. Ediken is either 

	1) not an attorney

	or 

	2) is lying.

	If 1) is try then we have no issue here

	if 2) is true then he is harrassing my ISPs for a personal agenda.

	On the other hand, if 1) and 2) are wrong and he is an attorney and is
telling the truth then he is in violation of his oath and gives not one wit
about violating his oath.  Perhaps both god and his conscience give him
special dispensation from oaths he swears but does not wish to honor.

	Good, old YFE has constructed his own rock and hard place in claiming to be
an attorney and in refusing to report a crime his oath requires him to
report.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:20 PDT 1996
Article: 72206 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!gatech!nntp0.mindspring.com!news.mindspring.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: what we find...
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:24:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	The holocaust has no common meaning or definition any more than pointing to
a number of movies and claiming they refer to demonic possession.  And
everything from Dracula to Rosemary's Baby to Pet Semetary refers to
demonic possession.  

	Said holocuast is all things to all people.  It is everything to everyone.

	Were it possible to set the believers loose among themselves they would
devour each other with the ferocity of wolves.  

	But that is not possible as they recognize their own and will not attack
the believes of others in the pack.  

	The beliefs of the pack are superior to the beliefs of in members of the
pack.
	
	The wolves are not at the gate.  They control the gate.   

	We are taking back the gate back from the wolves.  

	In the 30s when the wolves claim to have dressed in sheeps clothing to as
to volunteer for the slaughter but now they claim to defend their sheep
brothers.  

	It is interesting.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:21 PDT 1996
Article: 72207 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.icix.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Giwerese from Tommy
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:39:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <53a1kq$i8d@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:45894 alt.revisionism:72207

On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 21:55:50 GMT, frice@stbbs.com (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>>> Among his other books [David Irving] is a historian. 

>>>No, not even when he's among his other books is David Irving a
>>>historian.  He holds no academic credentials in history or 
>>>anything else; he does not submit his work for peer review; he 
>>>is not bound by nor does he adhere to codes of professional 
>>>conduct of historians.

>>"He holds no academic credentials ..." 
>>Argumantum ad vericundium: availing the validity of ones 
>>argument by citing it as coming from an accredited authority. 

>A valid argument when it comes to scientific method, Mr. Moran.  
>Henry Morris of the Institute (sic) for Creation Research (sic)
>also pontificates outside of his field (hydrolic engineering)
>and, like Irving, doesn't submit his religious beliefs for review
>among peers.  Ergo what Irving does is no different than any
>other religious zealot incapable of scholarship and seeking to
>justify their own predicposistions under the air of scholarship.

	Excuse me, good sir, but where were you when Pressac the Pharmacist was hot
shit on this conference?  Where were you when Hilberg the Political
Scientist was hot shit on this conference?  

	Why is it that you only jump in when it is on the other side of the
discussion?  

>Now you may pretend it's all part of the conspiracy if you wish.
>The fact is that ___real___ history is as much a science as
>biology is...  there is a preponderance of data which reaches a
>conclusion convergent with the closest approximation of certainty
>that can be obtained with scientific method.  

	Excuse me but historians are not involved with the scientific method.  If
they were, it would be even more boring that it is now.  

>Irving and other religious zealot bigots don't even bother trying 
>to attain real scholarship because their intended audience are 
>fellow religionist bigots, not academics.  They settle for whatever
>absurdity they can get their sheep to champion.

	Excuse me but what religion is Irving and where does it show up in his
published works?  I would really like an answer to this one as you are the
first to introduce religious bigotry into the discussion and I would
certainly like to know what in the hell you are talking about.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:22 PDT 1996
Article: 72208 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:45:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <53a1us$lio@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 10:21:27 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># I notice our resident computer scientist fails to post the
># actual testimony but expects his simple statement of same to
># be accepted.  

>The testimony is in "The Belsen Trial".

># On the other hand it fails to address the 80,000 in one night
># at Auschwitz thinking it has made a point with the issue of
># the camp.  

>A) The witness didn't claim that 80,000 were murdered in one night.

>B) Matt Giwer lied, claiming the testimony was given about Belsen,
>   when in fact it was given about Auschwitz.

># I could make up a name and you would not know the difference.  

>Giwer is a liar. He posts fake testimony. That is that.

	Once more, little jerkoff jew, you fail to address the OR in his statement.
Murdered OR burned in a single night is the issue and you will not touch it
with a ten foot Pollack.  

	Give it up, little jew shit.  You are dealing with your betters here.  

	And to do not forget to quote that out of context.  I keep records of the
deliberate out of context quotes of holohuggers.  The records expose their
tactics.  
	
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:23 PDT 1996
Article: 72209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:50:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53a287$lio@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <32551ab0.5690027@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <5331mh$sfh@juliana.sprynet.com> <32563618.78252689@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <534gfe$kju@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <92o4tk7ycxd.fsf@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
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On 06 Oct 1996 17:56:30 -0400, Karl Kluge 
wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>> 	I have yet to see a claim that all confessions were obtained under
>> torture any more than anyonc claims all confessions by witches were obtained
>> under torture.

>Name 3 witch confessions which were not obtained under torture or the threat
>of torture. Be sure to take into account that repentent confessed witches
>received the "mercy" of being strangled before being burned at the stake in
>some countries.

	Now that is a cute one.  I could make up fifty names and you would now know
the difference.  Shall I do that?  And then I will make up a town in France
that no longer exists as to when it happened.  

	Do you really think that was a bright response?  

	Look into it.  Do some reading.  Even watch the cable documentaries.  

	When you have done so, get back to me without your tail between your legs.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:24 PDT 1996
Article: 72210 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 04:51:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <32551ab0.5690027@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <5331mh$sfh@juliana.sprynet.com> <537g4b$10o8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 119.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 11:26:43 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

># First of all, the Einsatzgruppen commanders DID say that
># many of their reports and figures were exaggerated. 

>That's a true pearl of "Holocaust revisionism". He's
>telling us that the commanders tried to make it look as if
>they killed *more* Jewish women and children than they
>really did! Why would they do that? Only, of course, if
>killing more Jewish women and children would have made them
>look better in the eyes of their superiors. 

	Where are the other six million of which there are no record either?  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:25 PDT 1996
Article: 72212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DON'T FORGET MCVEY'S A LIAR
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:00:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53a2re$102@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <531bf5$f2b@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <536dcn$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 11:01:26 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># Read the information holohuggers fear [...]

>Giwer is still posting the address of Ernst Zundel's web 
>site as a reliable source on the history of WW2. Another
>web site offered by Giwer is Greg Raven's; Raven wrote
>on the net that Hitler was a "great man, and the best
>thing that could have happened to Germany".

	Keren still pretends that his obvious bloodlust hatred of everyting German
is a rational position in the world.  It actually believes that nothing
German can have any value whatsoever.  

	He believes that no one ever connected with the NSDAP can ever have been
anything other than a foaming at the mouth exterminator of jews.  

	It gets its rocks off on the thought, I guess.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:26 PDT 1996
Article: 72214 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:11:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <53a3gd$6q9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <3255085f.47673@news.demon.co.uk> 
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:52:05 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:

># On the one side we have people reporting IMT eyewitness
># claims which are impossible, 

>Such as?

	Please.  I have posted dozens of them.  Playing coy does not become you.  

	You have responded in only one weak way to one of the dozens.  

># cremation rates which are impossible, 

>Such as?

	Already posted.  We do not start from scratch.  The cremation rates claimed
are impossible.  We all know that.  

	There is no backing up.  

># disposal rates of ash which are impossible.

>What?

	Already posted and ended here.  The game is over.  

># Think of the logistics of such figures. It's awesome.
># In Britain, we have a supposed danger from BSE infected 
># cattle. It is proposed to kill and incinerate 180,000 of 
># the animals. Guess what? There is a logistical problem.

>There was no problem in burning about 250,000 cows during the
>hoof-and-mouth epidemic in Britain in the 1960's. Not to
>mention that a cow weighs much more than a human.

	Times four and it was a problem and the sites are still in view unlike the
burning pits claimed by the holohuggers.  

># The reality is bad. The Myth is disgusting.

>Yes, indeed, the myth spread by a tiny number of crazed Nazis - 
>namely, that the Holocaust never took place - is disgusting.

	We have been over all of this.  You are trying to back up.  Every response
of yours has been examined and discounted.  

	Pay attention to the conference so you are not so far behind the times.

	We no longer back up for you laggards.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:27 PDT 1996
Article: 72215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zundel's material
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:16:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <53a3p7$6q9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52updn$pcp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325c4e42.28305539@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <530qs7$9u3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <532056$3d1@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <537k35$8d0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325b8fdf.61317692@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Sun, 06 Oct 1996 10:58:39 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[that Ernst Zuendel's UFO scam of the mid-1980s is defensible because
>the US military investigated UFO reports in the 1940s and 1950s]

>>    Whatever ridicule there might be for Zundel should be equally 
>>directed towards the US military but in either case it is only in 
>>hindsight and in complete ignorance of the times.  

>Thank you for indicating once again that Zuendel should be held up to
>ridicule.

	Only for you younglings who were not there at the time or are such flaming
liberals that you would accuse the US military of anything negative.  

>I think I may have to killfile you after all: I am not qualified to be
>your therapist and responding to you may be doing you more harm than
>good.

	Please killfile me.  Please do it.  That gives me a more open field with
fewer rejoinders.  

	I really wish all of you Israel loving holohuggers would killfile me.  That
would give me the entire conference.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:28 PDT 1996
Article: 72216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Details on the Treblinka gas chamber
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:24:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53a48v$d8u@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52u8ns$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:28:23 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <52u8ns$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>> 
>> Bomba's moving testimony, which conservative writer George Will called
>the "most
>> stunning in this shattering film," is simply not credible. 

>Of course not. Because Matt Giwer Says! So!
> 
>Of course, we all know that George Will is an idiot incapable of realizing
>reality. So is Claude Lanzmann. So is everyone else in the entire universe
>except for Matt Giwer.
> 
>Aren't we LUCKY to have Matt Giwer here? Otherwise we might all be forced
>to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions.

	Yes, you are, but so far I have had little success in saving holohuggers
>from  themselves.

	And of course you son takes offense at that statement.  You using piece of
shit.   
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:28 PDT 1996
Article: 72218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: Zundelsite on Zundel's UFO Investigations
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:28:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <53a4f8$d8u@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <5346mb$nan@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <535802$sqj@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:72218 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2975

On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:58:41 GMT, cjsaunde@netcom.ca (Christopher Saunders)
wrote:

>rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>>Incredibly, there are still some people out there who believe that the
>>stuff at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/flying-saucers/
>>is forged. 

>Can Nizkor produce the original documents?  Perhaps they should offer
>to send people a copy of the documents if they send in a dollar or two
>to cover photocopying & postage.  I would love to have a copy of those
>documents!

	The only thing Nizkor can possibly produce are the documents from which
they pirated the material.  

	Nizkor will steal from anyone and harm anyone the three of them choose to
do.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:29 PDT 1996
Article: 72219 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR and McVay are afraid to debate Winston Smith !!!!!!
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:33:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <53a4qb$d8u@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52ivn1$ija@news.ios.com>  <52kovd$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:30:50 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <52kovd$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:59:08 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >Greg Matson  wrote:
>> 
>> >> The super hero Ken McVay will not debate Winston Smith on the fraud of 
>> >> the Holocaust. Mcvay has retruned all Smith's e-mail and has run like the 
>> >> communist pinko he is, with his tail behind his liberal legs.
>> 
>> >Ken McVay, I'm sure, would be happy to discuss anything about the Holocaust
>> >here in public, on alt.revisionism.
>> 
>>         No he will not. 

>Yes he will.

	Excuse me but he or it HAS NOT.  
 
>And he has said so publicly on a number of occasions.
> 
>Here, in public.

	Yes, he has  and he lied.  He is a dickless coward like YFE.  

>But of course, Mr. Giwer knows better than anyone else, right?
>We're so lucky to have him here, telling us that everything we know (and
>say) is wrong.
> 
>What a guy!

	He has not.  He will not.  Yes, this man has no dick.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:30 PDT 1996
Article: 72220 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR and McVay are afraid to debate Winston Smith !!!!!!
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 05:36:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <53a4v3$d8u@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52ivn1$ija@news.ios.com>  <52ma76$1vp@newshub.atmnet.net> <52oo9s$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:29:05 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <52oo9s$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>>         You are completely in error.  McVay will start off "debating" a
>newcomer but at
>> the first sign of losing he name calls and activates his killfile while
>> declaring victory.  He is a diskless as YFE.  

>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>You've called all of us many names over the years, but to call Mr. McVay
>"diskless" is really the final straw.
> 
>I bet Mr. MrVay has LOTS of disks.

	Whatever you were sucking, it was not a dick.  Can't you tell latex even
when it is in your mouth?  
	
	
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:31 PDT 1996
Article: 72222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gwier, why?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 06:02:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <53a6fd$sf5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:   <539aie$d87@newshub.atmnet.net> <539fdg$5c@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 6 Oct 1996 16:29:52 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:



>             "Of course I ahve [sic] not been to the museum, dumbtwat.... 
>             It is only a lying idiot dumbtwat who would suggest that 
>             visiting a particular museum is a sine que non for belief." 
>                                              (Matt Giwer, Sept. 4, 1996)

>In article <539aie$d87@newshub.atmnet.net>, 
>frice@stbbs.com (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>>Spend half an hour or so surfing in this directory:

>>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>>Would you do me a favor and email all this material to me?  Matt was
>>once a FidoNet personality and I think that many FidoNetters in the
>>HolySmoke forum might be interested to see what he's up to these days.

>Surely you jest :-)

>Mr. Gwier's propensity for passing wind is exceeded only by
>his vulgarity. I sincerely hope that no-one mailed you the
>contents of his archives here, which certainly exceed 10 megs,
>if not 20...

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/

	Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
   CA
   1-604-382-0615

   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996
and 19 August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still
worked.  It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It disppeared just
prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false
information.  The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about
having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli intelligence.  

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
   1B Systems Management Limited
   5-1601 Bowen Road
   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
   CA

   (604) 758-2499

   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA


   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:32 PDT 1996
Article: 72223 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 06:00:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <53a6cr$sf5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: 119.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:27:39 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

> wrote:

>> As a person who had at least a moderate degree of respect for the
>> professionalism that Nizkor presents on their site (though I am on the
>> other side of the debate),

>Thanks!

	You are easily flattered, taking credit for hear laughter of fighter pilots
over their engines and seeing their faces from inside closed trucks and ...
You silly shit.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:33 PDT 1996
Article: 72224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 06:06:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
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On 6 Oct 1996 03:51:30 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>>   wrote:

>  
>>  > I was shocked to see the sort of degrading (to us all) language that they
>>  > utilize when speaking of Matt Giwer. Why is this?

>>  When you've finished slogging through the man's cheap shots, insanity,
>>  spamming, ridicule, hatred, bizarre hypocrisy, trolling, Jew-bashing,
>>  and insult after insult after insult after insult after disgusting
>>  insult -- nonsense which has continued for almost nine months -- then
>>  perhaps you'll understand that intemperate language is quite normal in
>>  this instance.  Matt Giwer would try the patience of a saint, and we
>>  don't claim to be saints.

>	Please note as well, his activities off the newsgroup.  After sending me 
>abusive e-mail Giwer was asked to stop.  His reply was the single line "I am tired 
>of your shit.  Fuck off."  To emphasize his disregard of the rights of other he 
>followed that communication with an e-mail of his anti-Semitic rants.  Giwer' 
>account at Netcom was suspended for this (among other reasons).

>	Sorry.  To call Giwer pond scum is an insult to pond scum.

	Please note that Ediken is in violation of his oath in failing to report my
crime.  

	Please not that his kind of jew does not hold any oath as valid and he is
proving the claim that jews do not honor oaths to gentiles.

	I want dickless to report my "crimes" as his oath as an officer of the
court requires him to do. 

	But Dickless will not do so. 

	Dickless is a jew stereotype.	


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:34 PDT 1996
Article: 72225 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 06:03:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <53a6hi$sf5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 21:55:27 GMT, frice@stbbs.com (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>> I was shocked to see the sort of degrading (to us all) language that they
>>> utilize when speaking of Matt Giwer. Why is this?

>>Spend half an hour or so surfing in this directory:

>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Would you do me a favor and email all this material to me?  Matt was
>once a FidoNet personality and I think that many FidoNetters in the
>HolySmoke forum might be interested to see what he's up to these days.

>Thanks in advance.

	I am saying nothing new.  Only now I have so many impossible eyewitness
tesimonies to deal with.   And all courtesy of the holohuggers.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:35 PDT 1996
Article: 72232 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, why?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:01:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
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On 6 Oct 1996 03:51:30 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>>   wrote:

>  
>>  > I was shocked to see the sort of degrading (to us all) language that they
>>  > utilize when speaking of Matt Giwer. Why is this?

>>  When you've finished slogging through the man's cheap shots, insanity,
>>  spamming, ridicule, hatred, bizarre hypocrisy, trolling, Jew-bashing,
>>  and insult after insult after insult after insult after disgusting
>>  insult -- nonsense which has continued for almost nine months -- then
>>  perhaps you'll understand that intemperate language is quite normal in
>>  this instance.  Matt Giwer would try the patience of a saint, and we
>>  don't claim to be saints.

>	Please note as well, his activities off the newsgroup.  After sending me 
>abusive e-mail Giwer was asked to stop.  His reply was the single line "I am tired 
>of your shit.  Fuck off."  To emphasize his disregard of the rights of other he 
>followed that communication with an e-mail of his anti-Semitic rants.  Giwer' 
>account at Netcom was suspended for this (among other reasons).

>	Sorry.  To call Giwer pond scum is an insult to pond scum.

	Let us keep this straight, you are in violation of your oath as an officer
of the court or you are lying.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:35 PDT 1996
Article: 72233 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: euthanasia murders?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:12:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53aaiv$osc@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sat, 05 Oct 96 08:02:15 GMT, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander
Baron) wrote:

>In article <534bei$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>           mgiwer@worldnet.att.net "Matt  Giwer" writes:

>> >>      Euthansia was NOT a war crime yet, as the jew traitor Keren points out,

>I really don't think this sort of personal abuse is condusive to anything useful.
>Dan isn't a traitor, he is simply a dogmatist, something that is sadly rather 
>common to both sides of all debates.

	I did not think we were debating Keren here but it is clear that he
promotes as true the obvious lies of Israel regarding the murder of the
crew of the USS Liberty.  He pretends to be both a US citizen and a Jew
which makes him a jew traitor by his own words.  

	There may be larger issues here but there is no reason not to indentify him
for what he has professed to be by his own words.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:36 PDT 1996
Article: 72237 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:28:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <53abh7$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 5 Oct 1996 04:27:49 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>  	Which begs the question as to why the IMT received so few 
>non-jewish
>>  reports.  We are also left to wonder why the jew, non-jew breakout of the
>>  total was not in the literature prior to the change.  

>	It was.  But then, you have now admitted that you are unaware of 
>the evidence presented at the IMT.

	No need to listen to a dickless oath violater such as yourself.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:37 PDT 1996
Article: 72238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More jewish terrorism in France
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:33:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <53abr9$3v9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 5 Oct 1996 04:17:37 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>  
>>  	When the exterminationist posts stop I will stop.  If you folks will not
>>  honor the revision only nature of the conference I will not.  
>  
>>  	You do understand, do you not?  

>	Yes.  We understand perfectly.  If t\your opponents don't stop proving 
>that you are a fraud and a liar, yu will continue to violate the law by such 
>unsavory activities as:

>	1.  extortion

>	2.  mail-bombing

>	3.  spamming

>	4.  harassing people with obscene e-mail.

	Yes, JEW, we know you are in violation of your oath as an officer of the
court and we know that all jews swear to oaths with their fingers crossed
as you have done.  

	You are a Jew demonstrating that Jews have no respect for their oaths and
are religiously removed from them.

	You are clearly perjurous jew scum by your own inaction.  


	
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:38 PDT 1996
Article: 72239 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Self-annointed Jews as atheist jews know
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:40:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <53ac8g$640@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 5 Oct 1996 20:36:39 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	When the exterminationist posts stop I will stop.  If you folks will
>>not honor the revision only nature of the conference I will not.  

>	Holocaust "revisionism" (denial in fact) does get discussed on this
>newsgroup - mainly why denial is a load of radioactive horseshit.

>	If you expect non-deniers to stop posting here then I think you
>misunderstand the nature of unmoderated newsgroups.

>>	You do understand, do you not?  

>	Yep, I do. You have a brass neck asking people who regularly
>contributed to this newsgroup for years* to cease, just because they aren't
>deniers.

	Gee, another ignorant asshole to enlighten.

	There is nothing to deny as simply promoting one truth of the holocaust
denies another.  I have posted many proven truths from eyewitnesses that
DENY the holocaust.  What can I do that is more than that?  

	But you know that. 

	And of cours remember, there is no god.  Atheist jews know that.  And they
know that all jews, believing or not are self-annointed chosen people. 

	Every atheist jew knows that jews are self-annointed and self righteous
assholes just like the Christian Coalition.  They are all worthless and
meaningless slime of the earth.




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:38 PDT 1996
Article: 72240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer the Coward (Re: Israel provokes the end of peace)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:46:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 21:55:31 GMT, frice@stbbs.com (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>>>Since UFOs and gassing both exist upon the same sort of baseless testimony
>>>>without physical evidence, I choose door number 3, Monty.  Holohuggers are
>>>>crazed liars.  

>>>That is an admission, Matt, that you are in agreement that Zundel's
>>>claim is "baseless testimony." (sic)  And yet for some mysterious
>>>reason you go ahead and accept all his other baseless claims.

>>>What selection attributes are you looking for when you pick and
>>>choose which brand of absurdity you'll believe and which you won't?

>>I can not find a difference between him and the US 
>>military at the time. If you can, please post it.

>I asked you a specific question, Mr. Giwer, and you didn't even
>attempt to answer it.  Now why is that?  You accept Zundel's lunacy
>when it matches your religious convictions, it seems, and disreguard
>his other lunacies when they are inconvienient.  Is _that_ a fair
>and accurate assessment of the Giwer phenomena?

>If not, what selection attributes do you look for when you pick and
>choose absurdities to believe and champion?  Please answer the
>question honestly since it was asked honestly.

>Thanks.

	You are welcome, jerkoff.
	
	I stated very clearly that the pretentions here about Zundel were no
different from official lines of investigation at the time.  I certainly
accept that, at the time, both Zundel and the US military were
investigating the same or similary hypothesis.  
	
	If you have a problem with both of them, so do I but only in hindsight.  

	As you were not even born at the time, how in the hell would you pretend to
have an opinion on the subject?  	




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72241 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:50:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <53acpr$7sb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bid$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <534hlq$dk7@news.enter.net>  <536h0p$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 11:10:56 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># Another dickless one speaks up.  

>And Matt Giwer, another vulgar, jobless fool, who can't 
>find a job although he declares his IQ to be 163, vomits 
>trash into the net.

	Yes but Yaley is dickless.  He has not the balls to report the crime his
position as an officer of the court requires of him.  He is a dickless
coward.  Get over it.  
	
># The subject is that there has never been any object ever 
># discovered that was manufactured of Pure Jewess Hair. 

>A small rug, or doormat, made of human hair, was found and 
>is now in Yad-Vashem. But more than that: huge amounts of
>human hair were found in Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they are
>still there. Perhaps Giwer will explain why the Nazis had
>all this hair collected and stored, if they didn't plan
>to use it for something? Have a go at it Matty; show us dem
>163 IQ points in action.

	A nice collection of lies, oh dickless one.  There are no such things but I
am certain dickless Jews have given what the did find a proper Jewish
burial and even prayed over horse hair as being jewish horses.

	I never said that jews were very bright.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 72242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:52:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <53acu8$7sb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <536lbn$ao3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 11:15:48 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># Now that the human hair myth has fallen again, 

>But Giwer also apparently believes the Nazis escaped into
>the inner earth with "secret UFO's". At any rate, he is a
>fan of Ernst Zundel, who claims this.

>Why is there such a huge amount of human hair in Auschwitz?
>Why did the SS collect and store it, if they didn't plan to
>use it?

>You poor fool. Get a job already. At this rate, not even
>the IHR will hire you.

	Keep it up, dickless -- an impossible task, I know.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72243 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:51:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Oct 1996 02:19:00 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  	Now that the human hair myth has fallen again, we are left with the
>>  question of just why are there so many reports of the hair being cut from
>>  new arrivals.  I have already posted the answer to this one but then the
>>  holohuggers again started name calling in order to distract the topic from
>>  the lack of of human hair and the well known reason for the hair cutting.

>	That is an outright lie.  Two posts were made which refuted your silly 
>assertions.  Both quoted from the orders sent to the concentration camps without 
>other comment.

>	One was: "The prisoner's hair is to be sent to Alex Zink, Fur 
>Manufactures, Ltd. Nuremberg.  The company will pay 0.50 marks for every 
>kilogram of hair."  Bundesarchiv Koblenz document NS 3 386

>	Deal with it, criminal type person.

	Get over it, dickless.  Not one example of it every happening.  You are
really very stupid but that comes with having no dick.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72244 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: consider the opposition
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:02:58 GMT
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The Chuckle Fairy
Gord McFly
Alec Grynspan

	World class intellectual giants on the holohugger side of the issue. 

	Long may they continue to post.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:42 PDT 1996
Article: 72245 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:04:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Oct 1996 17:26:26 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  > 	They most certainly did not.  "This [Simpson] commission and my own 
>>  > Administration od Justice Review Board found that improper methods had been 
>>  > used to obtain evidence in the Malmedy case.  Members of the prosecution 
>staff 
>>  > testified to the use of stage settings, stool pigeons, and similar measures to 
>extract 
>>  > evidece.  Extreme brutalities claimed by the prisoners, in manifest self-interest, 
>>  > were denied by the prosecution staff and not borne out by other evidence."  
>>  > (Lucius Clay)

>>  > 	The Simpson Report was made public in the early 1950's.  You quote 
>>  > not a word of its findings.  There is a simple reason for that.  It found that not 
>>  > torture or physical brutality was used.

>	
>>    So? What you have here is a man (Clay) who decided to deny the charge
>>   because they were embarassing.

>	You're an ignorant idiot.  When he made that statement Clay was under 
>attack for commuting the sentences.  Confirming the alleged brutalities would not 
>have been an "embarassment" but the cornerstone of his defense.

> It's like to say that if I complain about
>>   a physical agression by someone a week ago my claim is disproved as soon
>>   you decide to call me a liar. Obviously most of the prosecution staff
>>   wasn't interest to back the charges maden by defendants or defense
>>  lawyers months or years after. But there's an exception, a military:
>>  (about Dachau)


>	Another idiotic statement.  The charges were not made years after.  They 
>were made at the trial.  Further the prosecution staff admitted to the improper 
>methods of interrogation.

>  
>>   "When the chief of the Dachau War Crimes Administration branch, Colonel
>>    A.H. Rosenfeld, quit his post in 1948 he was asked by newspapermen
>>   if there was any truth to the stories about the mock trials, at which
>>   sham death sentences had been passed. He replied: "Yes, of course. We 
>>   couldn't have made those birds talk otherwise...It was a trick, and it worked
>>   like a charm."

>	Whish is exactly what the Simpson Commission, Clay, and the Justice 
>Review Board stated.  I'm glad you finally agree with the conclusion of everybody 
>who investigated the matter.  Improper tricks were used and the convictions of 
>those who were subject to those procedures had their sentences commuted.  
>Sounds like a fairly good procedure.

>	On the other hand, there is no support in your quotation for physical 
>torture.

>	You are still at zero and sinking fast.

	And still the oath denying Jew refuses to make his case.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:43 PDT 1996
Article: 72246 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: all jews deny their oaths because YFE does
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:10:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	We have been over this.  YFE refuses to comply with his oath because he is
a Jew and does not have to honor his oaths.  That is clear from his posts
in claiming I have committed a crime yet refusing to report me crime as his
oath as an officer of court requires.

	If there was ever any question that Jews do not honor oaths YFE is proof of
it.  

	This is only one claimed stereotype that is now proven to be true.

	Jews do not honor oaths.  

	YFE is the living proof of that.  

	YFE is a jew.

	Enough said.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:44 PDT 1996
Article: 72247 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:13:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 10:48:34 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:

># 33 years before he testified as an eye witness who saw people
># being gassed. But Muench didn't even bothered himself to build
># a coherent story by picking up officials informations before to
># testify. He placed the crematoria and the gas chamber building
># one or 1 1/2 kilometer on the sout west of Birkenau camouflaged
># in a small woods. It can't be even a misunderstanding with the
># 1942 farmhouse:

>He's probably referring to Krema IV or V, which were surrounded
>by trees. Moreover, one of the "bunkers" was used again during
>the summer of 1944.

	I have posted the overall picture of Birkenau which included IV and V and
they are as close to the barracks as the barracks are to each other.  There
are no trees any where in sight.  Grow up and get a life beyond the
holocaust.  

	You are lying.  And you konw you are lying.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:45 PDT 1996
Article: 72248 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: innumerate Re: Population growth and Jews
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:40:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Oct 1996 00:55:44 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L.
Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>	We have on the table the growth of the jewish population of Europe up to
>>1860 at three times the growth rate of the rest of Europe.  We also have an
>>extrapolation of the population to 1940 at that same growth rate to a total
>>of 12 million.  

>>	Some months ago we were pointing out the "I lost two million relatives"
>>claims.  At that time we came up with a worst case 1/2 of the Jewish
>>population of Europe having been holocausted.  12 vice 6 million, voila!
>>1/2 the jewish population of Europe.  

>>	And there we have the confirmation of the revisionist ridicule of the "I
>>lost two million relatives" stories.  

>Matt, I'm sure you think you're making a point here, but I'll
>be damned if I can figure out what you're trying to say. Don't
>you think it's time for a remedial class in English composition?
>Your posts are the most incoherent on this conference. Even a
>proven mental case like Grosvenor is at least more intelligible.
>Is this some sort of reverse dyslexia, where the sufferer can
>read but not write? But I forgot--from what messages we are able
>to understand, you're generally incapable of reading with
>comprehension, either.

	But you missed the entire point did you not?

	This was simply an exercise in demonstrating innumeracy among the masses
such as yourself.  If you were numerate you would understand the
significance of only half.

	Here is a real big hint, "I lost 167 relatives."

	Got it now?  

	Think real hard, ponder over it, connect the two points.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:45 PDT 1996
Article: 72249 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: you may have wondered
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:17:06 GMT
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	The reason I occasionally provoke McFly and the Chuckle Fairy and Grynspan
is to make them keep the noise leve up in this conference.  

	Not a one of them has posted anything substantive and they all serve to
make holohuggers look like idiots.  They do work so hard at it.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:46 PDT 1996
Article: 72250 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from100% pure Jewish Hair
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:22:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Oct 1996 02:23:55 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  	First I post this message.  And then the holohuggers on failing to provide
>>  any such manufactured object, quickly try to shift the subject to soap.
>>  Nice try folks.  One more myth down the tubes.  

>	. . . . .

>>  	It appears all the hair was cut off and shipped to German to be 
>destroyed
>>  rather than used to make anything.  Tbink of all the doormats not made, all
>>  the mattresses not stuffed, all the submariners' socks not made. 

>	"The prisoners' hair is to be sent to Alex Zink, Fur Manufacturers, Ltd., 
>Nuremberg.  The company will pay 0.50 marks for every kilogram of hair."  
>Bundesarchiv Koblenz document NS 3 386

>	Why have you not tried to explain this,  criminal type person?

	As dickless knows not ONE Pure Jewess Hair product has ever been found in
over fifty years.  Not ONE. 

	But then, dickless is truly dickless.  And in violation of his oath as an
officer of the court as no jew has any respect for an oath.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:47 PDT 1996
Article: 72251 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Chuckle Fairy
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:26:01 GMT
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	In case I need to remind anyone, the Chuckle Fairy has claimed to have been
one of the people who murdered the guards at Dachau.

	We can see why he is so desparate to find them at faulst.

	Because he is a murderer who has been living with his murders all of his
life and can not deal with it.

	The Fairy is a murderer and he knows it.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:48 PDT 1996
Article: 72255 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: remember this
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:31:34 GMT
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	The Chuckle Fairy is a self confessed murderer.
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:49 PDT 1996
Article: 72256 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: mountains of shoes and hair
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:48:29 GMT
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	They were always discovered but then why were they never shipped out?  
	
	Tons of hair a jewish soap discovered and never used.
	
	How strange.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:50 PDT 1996
Article: 72257 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What if again (despite the fat topic cop)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:41:31 GMT
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On 6 Oct 1996 01:03:34 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L.
Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>	What if after 12 years the Nazis had been able to find and exterminate all
>>of the German Jews?  

>>	Would that not mean that there would be no Jews in Germany in 1945?  

>>	Ah, but I forgot, this is the alternate reality.  There were German Jews in
>>Germany in 1945.  12 years of effort was wasted.  

>Indeed there were. The Nazis actually tended to bridle their brutality
>within the confines of the Altreich, and on one occasion a protest by
>"Aryan" wives of Jews who were about to be deported resulted in those
>Jews' release, and subsequently their survival. Just goes to show that
>if "ordinary Germans", as Browning or Goldhagen would put it, had
>reacted more forcibly to the genocide, it may never have reached the
>proportions it did. (Bulgaria, a nominal Axis ally, did resist, and 
>virtually none of its Jews were deported or murdered--the Jewish
>population actually grew during the war.)

	Excuse me good sir, but you fantasy explanation is not supported in the
literature.  Please provide citations for your imaginations in the future.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:50 PDT 1996
Article: 72258 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: We Three-Bergen Belsen, Brian Harmon, and Me
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:43:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <53afu1$mf3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <537fgd$p23@juliana.sprynet.com> 
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On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 11:36:42 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>It's true: most of the victims in Belsen camp died from 
>starvation and from typhus. Since no one cared enough to 
>feed them, or to give them water, or to make any effort 
>whatsoever to save them, they died.

>This is murder just as shooting or gassing someone is murder; 
>it only takes more time and is more painful.

	Pure Nazi Evil explains everything.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in case you have forgetten
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:58:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <53akaq$ppv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <537p5u$dfu@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <538nh0$1h0u@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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On 6 Oct 1996 16:42:08 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
wrote:

>Rajiv K. Gandhi (rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca) wrote:
>: In article <537p5u$dfu@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>: > The littel jew animal Marduk continues his telephone harrassing calls 
>: > to me and my son's empolyer.  

>: If your son is being harassed, he should do the same. 

>Of course, he could stop a second and consider the irony of what he
>posted about Sara Schwartz's son in the context of the harassment that
>he claims his own son is receiving.  But I doubt he'd be up to that.

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----

	Except there is a big difference, Shultzie.  Sara claimed her son was
autistic and took offense at my posts.  My son has no interest in this
conference but is ready to apply his considerable talents to hacking the
host of Marduk -- netcom.ca.  

	There is a very big difference between the two sons.  For example, mine can
speak rather than make noises.  Beyond that, mine can speak his own name.
Beyond that mine ... but I belabor the point.  

	Mine is one of the new generation that has not the sligtest interest in
this holocaust interest as is her son who is not capable of caring less as
autistic is incapable of caring, period.  

	I have known autistic and have personal experience with same.  '

	Using a child is despicable.

	Nothing you can say is going to make this bitch feel whole again.  She is a
user as are all holohuggers.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72261 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in case you have forgetten
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:58:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <53akav$ppv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <537p5u$dfu@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On 6 Oct 1996 10:20:31 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L.
Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>	The one common thread will be holocaust resisionism 

>Does that mean that you'll soon start up a new newsgroup, alt.resisionism?

	It means a.r is a conference for revisionism as it has always been and
holohuggers are not invited.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72262 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Criminal Speaks
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:58:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <53akb1$ppv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 6 Oct 1996 15:11:12 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  	The littel jew animal Marduk continues his telephone harrassing calls 
>to me
>>  and my son's empolyer.  He continues to forge email and netcon.ca 
>continues
>>  to permit the email harrassment. 

>	The person who criminally harassed me and my family with obscene 
>e-mail -- and was suspended from his provider for the abuse -- now accuses 
>without evidence another person of committing the crimes he perpetrates 
>crimes.

	Report the crime or resign as an officer of the court.  

	You can not ethically continue as an officer of the court unless you are a
jew ... which is redundtant.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72263 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in case you have forgetten
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:58:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <53akb4$ppv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 6 Oct 1996 17:04:35 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	The littel jew animal Marduk continues his telephone harrassing calls
>>to me and my son's empolyer.  He continues to forge email and netcon.ca
>>continues to permit the email harrassment. 

>	1. What evidence is there that Marduk is Jewish?

	What evidence is needed other than his existance?  

>	2. Even if Marduk is Jewish, what would it matter?

	Yes,  

>>	Marduk, being the quintessenial holohugger, continues in the activity
>>they all know best.  This was best stated by Alec Grynspan when he
>>acknowledged his mail bombing but claimed it was other than mailbombing.  

>	Can your ISP confirm that you were mailbombed?

	Can 1B systems confirm that it was mailbombed?   

>>	BTW holohuggers, expect real soon now an entire website devoted to
>>hologugger attempts to censor the internet.  I have enough information now
>>to support jewish as the thread of the most common internet abuse.  But I
>>will be patient to get enough information to make clear even to the
>>holohuggers that they can not simply say it is unproven.  

>	This should be a very small site, then.

	Over 30k without graphics so far.  But it is still in preparation. 

>	Didn't Rich Graves set up the Zundelmirrors? And him a holohugger?
>Ah well, must be the ZOG conspiracy again - they're so fiendishly clever!

	I have no  idea.  What is it all about?   But if you think you made a point
there, the documentation will be available WITHOUT your present ability to
respond, very like Nizkor.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 07:33:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72264 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in case you have forgetten
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:58:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53akb7$ppv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <537p5u$dfu@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <98f_9610061302@tor250.org>
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On 06 Oct 96 12:42:38, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[in case you have forgetten] [06 Oct 96 04:02][*][0]*>

> MG>   The littel jew animal Marduk continues his telephone
> MG> harrassing calls to me and my son's empolyer.  He continues to
> MG> forge email and netcon.ca continues to permit the email
> MG> harrassment.

>As delusional as ever, Matt. Netcon blew you away when you tried
>your stunts. The reason that they don't touch "Marduk" is because he
>doesn't. He taunts you, and is silly enough to use your ID in his
>parodies - silly because you're not worth the effort - but
>otherwise, it's all in your imagination.

	It appears you are claiming you are Marduk.

	I do agree you are both equally juvenile but otherwise I find you are no
different.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer2@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 08:25:36 PDT 1996
Article: 72234 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer2@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOAH Uses ONLY Primary Sources
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:22:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <53ab5p$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <3250a0bc.206899418@news.cris.com>  <534bfk$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:96457 alt.revisionism:72234

On Sun, 06 Oct 1996 01:27:43 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern)
wrote:

>In article <534bfk$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>*        Self congratulations is a symptom of what he is talking about.  

>Please document what you are talking about, as I have no idea.  You're
>making tjings up.  Again.

>*        You did not pay attention to what I did post.  You have not paid
>attention
>*to the conference.

>I most certainly did pay attention to what you posted, hence the response.  
> 
>*        Because of those failings you created an issue that was not under
>*discussion and posted false information in support of your invented issue.

>I did not post false information.  Take a history class.  You'll see that
>I'm 100% correct, and you, again, are 100% incorrect.

>*        And now you are "proud" of getting it all wrong.

>Not proud.  In fact, quite embarrassed that you call yourself a member of
>the human race, being such a lying, ignorant, fearful fool.

>*        If you had disagreed with my response you would have 1) replied
>at the time
>*and 2) addressed what I posted.  Rather you let it ferment so long that you
>*got it all wrong.  

>1) Had better things to do at the time, like study and b) did address
>exactly what you posted.  Didn't get anything wrong.  

	Everything wrong but how would you know as you were too busy?

How do you look
>yourself in the mirror?  How do you sleep at night, knowing you're a
>cowerdly, ignorant, self-indulgent fool?  

	I sleep very well, thank you.  I do not have to live with the fantasy of
mass extermination as you do.  

This will be my last direct post
>to you, as you don't deserve my time, nor my intellect.  

	Of course it will lbe your last as you have no intellect to speak of,
thinking that acceptance in college is of some merit in these affirmative
action days, patitcularly for minorities like blacks and majorities like
women.  

I encourage
>others to ignore this crazed, genetic misfit called Matt Giwer, as he
>thrives from follw-ups.  He represents the absolute sick and twisted and
>sompletely wrong minority in this world and no longer deserves our time,
>nor our effort.  He will slowley wither away to nothingness without our
>encouragement.  I say... we let him.  The facts are on our side... not on
>his.

	The silly little bitch thinks she has said something important.  She is in
fact a fatbroad going to college for no other purpose than to find a
husband.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer2@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 08:25:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72235 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer2@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOAH Uses ONLY Primary Sources
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:26:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <53abdd$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <534bfg$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:96460 alt.revisionism:72235

On Sun, 06 Oct 1996 01:33:22 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern)
wrote:

>In article <534bfg$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>*        Hardly.  Off hand I do not remember making any particular comment about
>*historians on the subject.  I observed rather that after so many years they
>*would be fed back the composite legends.  
>*
>*        For example, although steaming and suffocation were the most
>common stories
>*of the means of extermination at Treblinka those stories are not told by
>*any present survivors or historians for that matter.  
>*
>*        You have also missed the dozens of conflicting and impossible
>stories told
>*by these people which is contrary to your claim of corroborating stories.  
>*
>*        You really should pay attention to the conference.  

>Read a book or two, and take a class or two.  Perhaps visting the
>Holocaust Museum, either in Washington, D.C. or Israel, would be
>beneficial.  Stop posting lies and actually research what you are talking
>about.  Back up some of your ignorant and wrong claims.  YOU ARE WRONG, 
>IT HAS BEEN PROVEN.  Hitler proved it.  Weisel proved it.  Countless
>others proved it, and you know it, you bigoted ass.  Now shoo.  You're
>rantings will no longer be indulged.

	Listen up, child, I have read and I have learned and I have learned what
the word "proven" means and you have not.  

	Wiesel is a known liar.  Hitler is condemned solely because he was clever
enough not to leave any evidence that he was involved, AS YOU KNOW.  

	You have no knowledge whatsoever what proof means.  

	You need to learn and come back when you have ceased playing the emotional
an lying female.  Dumb broads are not invited.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 12:34:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72354 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: You folks still have time
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 17:27:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <53beju$iku@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82


Thank you for your inquiry about the conference.  The call for papers 
is included in this message, and the conference announcement will be 
sent via e-mail to you in November.  The deadline for the call for 
papers has been extended to October 22 for those learning about the 
conference late.   If you prefer to receive a conference brochure, 
please send your name, complete mailing address and fax number to me 
at my e-mail address. 
Laura Ellenburg

===

Presentation proposals are being accepted for the 27th Annual 
Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches to be held 
March 2-4, 1997 in Tampa, Florida.  The conference is sponsored by the 
University of South Florida in cooperation with the Tampa Bay 
Holocaust Memorial Museum and Educational Center and Eckerd 
College. 
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 13:47:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Sobran again
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:52:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 229
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              Politically Incorrect - September, 1996

                Joseph Sobran 


Return to September Politically Incorrect Home Page


         "The Jewish Establishment"

                        by Joseph Sobran

The Jewish Establishment

In the early 1930s, Walter Duranty of the New York Times was in 
Moscow, covering Joe Stalin the way Joe Stalin wanted to be 
covered. To maintain favor and access, he expressly denied that 
there was famine in the Ukraine even while millions of Ukrainian 
Christians were being starved into submission. For his work 
Duranty won the Pulitzer Prize for journalism. To this day, the 
Times remains the most magisterial and respectable of American 
newspapers.

Now imagine that a major newspaper had had a correspondent in 
Berlin during roughly the same period who hobnobbed with Hitler, 
portrayed him in a flattering light, and denied that Jews were 
being mistreated - thereby not only concealing, but materially 
assisting the regime's persecution. Would that paper's 
respectability have been unimpaired several decades later?

There you have an epitome of what is lamely called "media bias." 
The Western supporters of Stalin haven't just been excused; they 
have received the halo of victim hood for the campaign, in what 
liberals call the "McCarthy era," to get them out of the 
government, the education system, and respectable society itself.

Not only persecution of Jews but any critical mention of Jewish 
power in the media and politics is roundly condemned as 
"anti-semitism." But there isn't even a term of opprobrium for 
participation in the mass murder of Christians. Liberals still 
don't censure the Communist attempt to extirpate Christianity 
>from  Soviet Russia and its empire, and for good reason - liberals 
themselves, particularly Jewish liberals, are still trying to 
uproot Christianity from America.

It's permissible to discuss the power of every other group, from 
the Black Muslims to the Christian Right, but the much greater 
power of the Jewish Establishment is off-limits. That, in fact, 
is the chief measure of its power: its ability to impose its own 
taboos while tearing down the taboos of others - you might almost 
say its prerogative of offending. You can read articles in 
Jewish-controlled publications from the Times to Commentary 
blaming Christianity for the Holocaust or accusing Pope Pius XII 
of indifference to it, but don't look for articles in any major 
publication that wants to stay in business examining the Jewish 
role in Communism and liberalism, however temperately.

Power openly acquired, openly exercised, and openly discussed is 
one thing. You may think organized labor or the Social Security 
lobby abuses its power, but you don't jeopardize your career by 
saying so. But a kind of power that forbids its own public 
mention, like the Holy Name in the Old Testament, is another 
matter entirely.

There is an important anomaly here. The word "Jewish," in this 
context, doesn't include Orthodox or otherwise religious Jews. 
The Jews who still maintain the Hebraic tradition of millennia 
are marginal, if they are included at all, in the Jewish 
establishment that wields journalistic, political, and cultural 
power. Morally and culturally, the Orthodox might be classed as 
virtual Christians, much like the descendants of Christians who 
still uphold the basic morality, if not the faith, of their 
ancestors. Many of these Jews are friendly to Christians and 
eager to make common cause against the moral decadence they see 
promoted by their apostate cousins. Above all, the Orthodox 
understand, better than almost anyone else in America today, the 
virtues - the necessity - of tribalism, patriarchal authority, 
the moral bonds of kinship.

The Jewish establishment, it hardly needs saying, is 
predominantly secularist and systematically anti-Christian. In 
fact, it is unified far more by its hostility to Christianity 
than by its support of Israel, on which it is somewhat divided. 
The more left-wing Jews are faintly critical of Israel, though 
never questioning its "right to exist" - that is, its right to 
exist on terms forbidden to any Christian country; that is, its 
right to deny rights to non-Jews. A state that treated Jews as 
Israel treats gentiles would be condemned outright as Nazi-like. 
But Israel is called "democratic," even "pluralistic."

Explicitly "Jewish" organizations like the American Jewish 
Committee and the Anti-Defamation League enforce a dual standard. 
What is permitted to Israel is forbidden to America. This is not 
just thoughtless inconsistency. These organizations consciously 
support one set of principles here - equal rights for all, ethnic 
neutrality, separation of church and state - and their precise 
opposites in Israel, where Jewish ancestry and religion enjoy 
privilege. They "pass" as Jeffersonians when it serves their 
purpose, espousing rules that win the assent of most Americans. 
At the same time, they are bent on sacrificing the national 
interest of the United States to the interests of Israel, under 
the pretense that both countries' interests are identical. (There 
is, of course, no countervailing American lobby in Israel.)

The single most powerful Jewish lobbying group is the American 
Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), which, as its former 
director Thomas Dine openly boasted, controls Congress. At a time 
when even Medicare may face budget cuts, aid to Israel remains 
untouchable. If the Israelis were to begin "ethnic cleansing" 
against Arabs in Israel and the occupied lands, it is 
inconceivable that any American political figure would demand the 
kind of military strike now being urged against the Serbs in 
ex-Yugoslavia.

Jewish-owned publications like The Wall Street Journal, The New 
Republic, The Atlantic Monthly, U.S. News & World Report, the New 
York Post, and New York's Daily News emit relentless pro-Israel 
propaganda; so do such pundits as William Safire, A.M. Rosenthal, 
Charles Krauthammer, Jeane Kirkpatrick, and George Will, to name 
a few. That Israel's journalistic partisans include so many 
gentiles - lapsed goyim, you might say - is one more sign of the 
Jewish establishment's power. So is the fact that this fact isn't 
mentioned in public (though it is hardly unnoticed in private.)

So is the fear of being called "anti-Semitic." Nobody worries 
about being called "anti-Italian" or "anti-French" or 
"anti-Christian"; these aren't words that launch avalanches of 
vituperation and make people afraid to do business with you.

It's pointless to ask what "anti-Semitic" means. It means 
trouble. It's an attack signal. The practical function of the 
word is not to define or distinguish things, but to conflate them 
indiscriminately - to equate the soberest criticism of Israel or 
Jewish power with the murderous hatred of Jews. And it works. Oh, 
how it works.

When Joe McCarthy accused people of being Communists, the charge 
was relatively precise. You knew what he meant. The accusation 
could be falsified. In fact the burden of proof was on the 
accuser: when McCarthy couldn't make his loose charges stick, he 
was ruined. (Of course, McCarthy was hated less for his "loose" 
charges than for his accurate ones. His real offense was 
stigmatizing the Left.)

The opposite applies to charges of "anti-Semitism." The word has 
no precise definition. An "anti-Semite" may or may not hate Jews. 
But he is certainly hated by Jews. There is no penalty for making 
the charge loosely; the accused has no way of falsifying the 
charge, since it isn't defined.

A famous example. When Abe Rosenthal accused Pat Buchanan of 
"anti-Semitism," everyone on both sides understood the ground 
rules. There was a chance that Buchanan would be ruined, even if 
the charge was baseless. And there was no chance that Rosenthal 
would be ruined - even if the charge was baseless. Such are the 
rules. I violate them, in a way, even by spelling them out.

"Anti-Semitism" is therefore less a charge than a curse, an 
imprecation that must be uttered formulaically. Being a "bogus 
predicate," to use Gilbert Ryle's phrase, it has no real content, 
no functional equivalent in plain nouns and verbs. Its power 
comes from the knowledge of its potential targets, the gentiles, 
that powerful people are willing to back it up with material 
penalties.

In other words, journalists are as afraid of Jewish power as 
politicians are. This means that public discussion is cramped and 
warped by unspoken fear - a fear journalists won't acknowledge, 
because it embarrasses their pretense of being fearless critics 
of power. When there are incentives to accuse but no penalties 
for slander, the result is predictable.

What is true of "anti-Semitism" is also true to a lesser degree 
of other bogus predicates like "racism," "sexism," and 
"homophobia." Other minorities have seen and adopted the 
successful model of the Jewish establishment. And so our public 
tongue has become not only Jewish-oriented but more generally 
minority-oriented in its inhibitions.

The illusion that we enjoy free speech has been fostered by the 
breaking of Christian taboos, which has become not only safe but 
profitable. To violate minority taboos is "offensive" and 
"insensitive"; to violate Christian taboos - many of them shared 
by religious Jews - is to be "daring" and "irreverent." 
("Irreverence," of course, has become good.)

Jewry, like Gaul, may be divided into three parts, each defined 
by its borders vis-a-vis the gentile world. There are the 
Orthodox, who not only insist on borders but wear them. They 
often dress in attire that sets them apart; they are even willing 
to look outlandish to gentiles in order to affirm their identity 
and their distinctive way of life. At the other extreme are Jews 
who have no borders, who may (or may not) assimilate and 
intermarry, whose politics may range from left to right, but who 
in any case accept the same set of rules for everyone. I respect 
both types.

But the third type presents problems. These are the Jews who 
maintain their borders furtively and deal disingenuously with 
gentiles. Raymond Chandler once observed of them that they want 
to be Jews among themselves but resent being seen as Jews by 
gentiles. They want to pursue their own distinct interests while 
pretending that they have not such interests, using the charge of 
"anti-Semitism" as sword and shield. As Chandler put it, they are 
like a man who refuses to give his real name and address but 
insists on being invited to all the best parties. Unfortunately, 
it's this third type that wields most of the power and skews the 
rules for gentiles. The columnist Richard Cohen cites an old 
maxim: "Dress British, think Yiddish."

Americans ought to be free to discuss Jewish power and Jewish 
interests frankly, without being accused of denying the rights of 
Jews. That should go without saying. The truth is both otherwise 
and unmentionable. ( Return to top of page )

[The preceding article was reprinted from the September, 1995, 
issue of Sobran's. For subscription information, call 
1-800-493-4401, or write P.O. Box 1383, Vienna, VA 22183.]



=====
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http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 14:40:24 PDT 1996
Article: 72394 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bill Harmon's Question
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:38:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <53bma1$eom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 17:28:39 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Try this on for size:

>"Besides the cases of arbitrary flogging to deat and direct mudering
>of individual prisoners by brutal SS-men, camp-seniors, block-seniors
>and apartment-seniors and even by the Capos of the infirmary, general
>massacres and individual executions took place at the oder of the
>Gestapo and the high Nazi leaders. General massacres took place above
>all in the so-called *Invalids-transports* which had no other purpose
>than *death by gassing.* As already mentioned, Dachau had, in the last
>year, also its own gas chamber. But it's "showers" were never used.
>Instead, the inmates of the Dachau camp were sent to Linz in Austria
>to be gassed. Domagala gives us some details of this for the years
>1942-1944:

>	January	    2nd   1942 	120
>	January	    6th    1942 	120
>	January	    9th    1942 	120
>	January	    12th  1942 	120
>	January	    15th  1942   	  98
>	January	    16th  1942 	100
>	January	    19th  1942 	100
>	January	    20th  1942 	  99
>	January	    22th  1942 	100
>	January	    26th  1942 	100
>	January	    27th  1942 	100
>	February    16th  1942 	  60
>	February    17th  1942 	100
>	February    19th  1942 	  90
>	February    23rd  1942 	100
>	February    24th  1942 	100
>	February    26th  1942 	  99

>[ . . . the list goes on]

>Altogether 3166 prsoners were sent to the gas chamber, among them
>about 700 poles."

>(_What was it like in the Concentration Camp at Dachau?_ by Dr.
>Johannes Neuhäusler, 1973, Auxiliary Bishop of Munich, Translated from
>the German, 17th edition, Trustees for te Monument of Antonement in
>the Concentration Camp at Dachau, c/o Karmel Hl. Blut. D-8060 Dachau,
>Alte Römerstrasse 91, Postscheckkonto München 2031 49-807, pages
>29-30.)

	One has to wonder if there is truly anyone dumb enough to believe such
obviously contrived numbers like these.  
=====
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http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 15:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 72403 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:07:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
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On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:06:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I am asking our "revisionist scholars" yet again: if there was
>nothing criminal taking place in the Birkenau crematoriums, why
>didn't the SS take the Red Cross visitors into them?

	You will have to ask them.  Your ignorance of the reason indicates nothing
but your ignorance.  

>Heck, that's what I would do if I was running a camp with
>innocent crematoriums, used only to cremate corpses, and
>there were accusations that they had homicidal gas chambers
>in them. I'd take the Red Cross visitors right inside the
>kremas, and show them that these accusations are groundless.

>I would also invite journalists, whatever, to prove this.

	Perhaps they should have hired you to handle their public relations
efforts.  

>But we all know why this was not done, don't we?

	Again, your ignorance of the reason indicates nothing but your ignorance.  


=====
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http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 17:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 72412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: They instill terror
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:58:33 GMT
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	Literally hundreds of men, women and children newly arrived at Auschwitz.
They are standing along side the tracks.  They are being kept under
complete control by two unarmed SS men with their backs turned to the
crowd.  
=====
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http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 17:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 72421 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:26:21 GMT
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On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:32:24 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># Once more, little jerkoff jew, you fail to address the OR in his
># statement. Murdered OR burned in a single night is the issue and
># you will not touch it with a ten foot Pollack.  

>He said nothing about 80,000 people being murdered or burned in
>one night.

>You're still a liar, who posted testimony which does not exist,
>in an attempt to discredit Holocaust survivors. You intentionally
>changed the camp from Auschwitz to Belsen. You're a disgusting liar.

	You even quoted the 80,000.  To refresh your memory, it is again.  Notice
where it says 80,000 gassed or BURNED TO DEATH in a single night.  You will
also note that it is is not specific as to where these people were gassed
OR burned to death.  Next I suppose you are going to tell me that people
were not burned to death.  

It's been more than a month now, and Matt Giwer has not yet 
posted the name of the person who allegedly gave the testimony 
he mentions below.

Yet, he keeps insisting he's not lying, and that such testimony
was indeed given. Why can't he tell us who gave it?

Giwer is a crazed liar.

            Giwer the Liar Posts a Testimony
	          Which Does Not Exist
            -------------------------------- 

Giwer posted a non-existing testimony. Period. He did it in
order to "prove" that testimonies of survivors are a "lie".

The tactic is simple; "revisionists" use it all the time. They 
invent a non-existing testimony, or distort an existing one, 
and then post it as if it was an actual testimony. Al Baron 
did it. Tom Moran did it. And now Giwer does it.



# In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
# trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and
# Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000
# Jews,  representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been
# gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.



Since there was no such mass gassing in Belsen, Giwer is 
trying to make it appear as if a witness said there was such 
gassing, in order to "prove" that this witness was lying.

Giwer has yet to provide the name of this witness. But
he can't. Note that his only response to this reasonable
request is to spam the group by reposting something totally 
unrelated. 

The truth is that a Jewish doctor did testify about the
murder of the Lodz Jews in gas chambers, but he said it
took place in Auschwitz, not Belsen; also, he didn't say
they were all murdered in one night.

Our pathological liar posts an "edited" version of the testimony.

But this is what you can expect from a senile, pathetic,
miserable liar like Giwer.

-Danny Keren.
 
># Give it up, little jew shit. 

>Find a job, you miserable fool.

	Who is it that hired to when you can not remember what you quoted just a
few days earlier?  Why is it you REFUSE to address what it plainly says and
then deny that it says was you refuse to address?  

># You are dealing with your betters here.

>The fact that you are unemployed since the age of 46, is taking
>its toll on you. It has made you frustrated, angry and hateful,
>not to mention your other mental problems.

	You quoted it and then you lied about it.  Just like you lied about the
size of the gas chamber and about the Israeli murder of Americans, little
jew traitor.  



=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 17:13:15 PDT 1996
Article: 72422 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:19:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:50:20 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>This is great.  You're not uncomfortable about referring to Nuremberg?
>>Why don't you read my posts on Soviet Def Comedy Jam 1-5, and then
>>get back to me so we can discuss this "eyewitness" testimony presented by
>>Papa Stalin and his roughhouse boys?

>Let's deal with the facts of the Holocaust and not you anticommunism
>or soviet hatreds. Let's deal with the important issues that people
>use to establish the facts behind the Holocaust.

	Nice try, that.  



=====
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 17:13:16 PDT 1996
Article: 72427 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Tries to Change the Subject
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:04:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 7 Oct 1996 13:17:11 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 6 Oct 1996 04:27:07 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  >	You are incorrect -- as usual.  I suggest you read a book or two on the 
>>  >trial.  I suggest you find out what happened in the court-room on February 19, 
>>  >1946.  Perhaps you will also explain why Gilbert in "Nuremberg Diary" 
>devotes 
>>  >four pages to the reactions of the defendants to the showing of a film that 
>does 
>>  >not exist.

>>  	I was unaware that an officer of the court in Pennsylvania can have
>>  knowledge of a crime and refuse to report it.  Please confirm this,
>>  dickless.  

>	You are unaware of many things.  Including what happened in the 
>Nuremberg courtroom on Februrary 19, 1946.

>>  
>>  	Or at least have the honesty to admit that your claim that I have 
>committed
>>  a crime is your contrived libel.  

>	After being requested not to send me e-mail the criminal Giwer sent the 
>following obscene message to me and my family "I am tired of your shit.  Fuck 
>off."  That is harassment by communication.  Several days later the criminal 
>Giwer did so again by sending me and my family and anti-Semitic rant.  This is, 
>again, harassment by communication.  The harassment was further ethnic 
>intimidation under the law of Pennsylvania.

>	In other words the criminal Giwer is a criminal.
>  
>>  	You constructed your own rock and hard place and put yourself in the
>>  middle.  You have just repeated it.  

>	The only one in a dilemma here is the criminal Giwer.


>  
>>  	You are either libeling me or violating your oath as an officer of the
>>  court.  Or you are not an officer of the court as I have always maintained.

>	Since there is no such requirement on a lawyer.  In fact, a lawyer is 
>prohibited from reporting crimes under many circumstances, the criminal Giwer is 
>blowing smoke.

>	The proof of this is that he has taken no action.

>	To date the number of "revisionists" who have told the criminal Giwer 
>that criminal harassment is not part of their program is:

>	zero.

	Keep up your lying, dickless.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
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From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 17:42:01 PDT 1996
Article: 72431 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:28:44 GMT
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On Sun, 06 Oct 1996 15:04:35 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>
>>	I have yet to see a claim that all confessions were obtained under torture
>>any more than anyonc claims all confessions by witches were obtained under
>>torture.  

>Huh? Which witches where? What particualr cases are you speaking about
>and what are the specific dates? 

	How would you know if I made up some answers?  But if you insist, try the
Salem witch trials.  Torture was not employed.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 19:04:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72435 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DON'T FORGET MCVEY'S A LIAR
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 22:05:54 GMT
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On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:54:04 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:


>>># Read the information holohuggers fear [...]

>>Giwer is still posting the address of Ernst Zundel's web 
>>site as a reliable source on the history of WW2. Another
>>web site offered by Giwer is Greg Raven's; Raven wrote
>>on the net that Hitler was a "great man, and the best
>>thing that could have happened to Germany".

># Keren still pretends that his obvious bloodlust hatred of
># everyting German is a rational position in the world.

>Quite amusing to read this, since I have no hatered for Germans;
>my favorite authors are mostly German, and I have German friends.

>I may spend a month next year in one of the Max Planck institutes,
>and I am looking forward that possibility. Wanna join me, Matty?
>Surely even Max Planck can use a 163-IQ type like you (ha) with
>so much knowledge of physics (ha-ha) and mathematics (ha-ha-ha).

	And I bet some of your best friends are jewish.  You are looking silly.  

># It actually believes that nothing German can have any value
># whatsoever.  

>No. I believe nothing Nazi has any value whatsoever. And I don't
>like Nazi scum, whether they are German, American, or British. 

	I have good news for you.  They were disbanded in 1945.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 19:04:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72436 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 22:05:51 GMT
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On Sat, 05 Oct 1996 17:28:34 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>Right.   Are ready to undertake this noble task.  Try with the
>>accusations about the gas chambers first.If you dare to question
>>their existence, watch what happens to you.....
>>>  

>It depends on where you are questioning and how.

>>>  By your line of reasoning, i should disbelieve everything you say because
>>>  other revisionists have been repeatedly exposed as liars.
>>
>>So have "Holohuggers".  I am an individual and do not align myself with any 
>>partisan group.

>Yes you do. 

>>>  
>>
>>>   These death books did _not_ contain the names or registration of people
>>>  gassed upon arrival.
>>
>>Well, then it is up to prove to us that these non-existent people existed and were gassed.

>Train passenger records and ticket sales. Try reading some of the
>transport records.

	All of those people are accounted for.  What are you referring to?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 19:04:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72440 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another fun thing to do
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 22:33:56 GMT
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	Compare the drawing of Treblinka by a survivor with the photo of it and
discover the survivor was never at Treblinka.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 19:04:55 PDT 1996
Article: 72441 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An oldie but a goodie
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 22:33:30 GMT
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 MP>> Most left voluntarily and went into Jordan to live in the
 MP>> camps until Israel was destroyed by the Arabs. Any that
 MP>> left by riflepoint were not at the riflepoint of any
 MP>> Israeli before hostilities broke out.

 JB>      To coin a phrase, "My ass."  I have seen too much evidence
 JB> to the contrary, evidence that Israel has been trying like crazy
 JB> to keep anyone from seeing.

AG> Where did you see this "evidence"?

Perhaps he's referring to stuff like the following:

*-*-* pnews conferences *-*-*
/* Written afb2@peg.apc.org in igc:p.news */
ZIONIST MASSACRES IN 1948: New evidence
----------------------------------------------
                       -1-

The following article was published in the Hebrew daily Ha'ir on 6 May
1992. It contains new revelations about war crimes committed by the
Zionist forces in 1948 against Palestinian Arabs.

There are a number of reasons why the publication of this information
is important:

1.  It shows once more and through the pen of Israeli historians  what
motivated the Palestinian Arabs to flee in 1948.

2.  It shows how the Zionist establishment has attempted and still
attempts to hide the truth about the massacres of Palestinians in the
1948 War.

3. It exposes the fallacy according to which mainly right-wing
Zionists (the terrorist groups IZL and LEHI led by Menahem Begin and
Yitzhak  Shamir) were responsible for atrocities against Palestinian
Arabs in  1948. In fact, most atrocities and massacres were committed
by 'good  Jewish boys and girls', from the Labour movement, many of
whom came from kibbutzim after receiving a humanist education.

4. It exposes the myth, entertained in the West, according to which
Israel's practices towards Palestinians changed to the worse when the
Likkud came to power.

5. It documents the development of a growing awareness among Israeli
intellectuals of the need to tackle the past in an honest manner. This
is a rather recent and salutary phenomenon.

As an appendix to the article, summary descriptions of some other
massacres follow (published along the article in Ha'ir). They are
posted  as the first subtopic.  Elias Davidsson translated from Hebrew
and added  some explanatory notes . Any remarks concerning mistakes
are welcome.

 ------------------------------------------------------------

NOT ONLY DEIR YASSIN

By Guy Erlich, Ha'ir, 6 May 1992

After Lydda (1) gave up the fight, a group of stubborn Arab fighters
barricated themselves in the small mosque. The commander of the
Palmach's(2) 3d Battalion, Moshe Kalman, gave an order to fire a
number  of blasts towards the mosque. The soldiers who forced their
way into the  mosque were surprised to find no resistance. On the
walls of the mosque  they found the remains of the Arab fighters. A
group of between twenty to  fifty Arab inhabitants was brought to
clean up the mosque and bury the remains. After they finished their
work, they were also shot into the  graves they dug.

The Jewish American journalist Dan Kurtzman, heard this testimony from
Moshe Kalman, who has meanwhile died, while he was writing his book
'In  the Beginning 1948 (Bereshit 1948)' about the War of
Independence. As  Kurtzman did not want to hurt the State of Israel,
he did not include  this testimony, but told this story to Israeli
historian Aryeh Yitzhaki,  when they met in the IDF archives, when
Kurtzman was there working on his  book. Kurtzman, who is now visiting
Israel in connection with his new book (incidentally, these days a new
edition of his older book is coming out), confirmed - after some
hesitation - that he heard this testimony from  Moshe Kalman.

Since its establishment, the State of Israel keeps a conspiracy of
silence concerning massacres  committed in the War of Independence
(4).  The only massacre acknowledged in official publications is that
of Deir  Yassin, perhaps because it was perpetrated by the IZL
(Irgun). Books and  press reports have referred to dozens of cases,
but only partially and incompletely. Yitzhaki corroborates this
impression: 'I read all the  documents in the IDF archives written
about the War of Independence.  In the course of years I became
especially alert to anything concerning  the massacres.' Yitzhaki is a
lecturer in the Bar Ilan University [Tel  Aviv] in the Faculty of
Eretz Yisrael Studies (5) and is also senior lecturer in the field of
military history in IDF courses for officers.   In the sixties he
served as director of the IDF archives within the  framework of his
IDF service in his capacity as historian.

Yitzhaki assembled all the testimonies and documents concerning the
subject matter and waited for the right time to publish. 'The time has
come' he says, 'for a generation has passed, and it is now possible to
face the ocean of lies (6) in which we were brought up. In almost
every  conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were
committed, which  are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate
killings, massacres and  rapes. I believe that such things end by
surfacing. The only question is how to face such evidence.'

According to Yitzhaki, about ten major massacres were committed in the
course of the War of Independence (i.e. more than fifty victims in
each  massacre) and about hundred smaller massacres (of individuals or
small  groups). According to him, these massacres had an enormous
impact on the  Arab population, by inducing the flight of the Arabs
>from  the country.

Yitzhaki: 'For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in the
lie,  that the Arabs left the country under orders from their leaders.
This is  an absolute fabrication. The fundamental cause of their
flight was their  fear from Israeli violence and this fear was not at
all imaginary. From  almost each report in the IDF archives concerning
the conquest of Arab  villages between May and July 1948 - when
clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest - a smell of massacre
emanates. Sometimes the report  tells about unequivocal massacres
which were committed after the battle,  sometimes the massacres are
committed in the heat of battle and while  the villages are cleansed.
Some of my colleagues, such as Me'ir Pa'il,  don't consider such acts
as massacres.  In my opinion there is no other  term for such acts
than massacres. This was at the time the rule of the  game. It was a
dirty war on both sides.  This phenomenon  spread out in the field;
there were no explicite orders to exterminate.  In the first  phase a
village was usually subjected to heavy artillery from some distance.
Then soldiers would assault the village. After giving up resistance,
the Arab fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the
advancing forces. Some would not flee and would remain in the village,
mainly women and old people. In the course of cleansing we used to hit
them. One was 'tailing the fugitives', as it used to be called
('mezanvim baborchim'). There was no established battle procedure as
today, that when blowing up a house, one has first to check whether
civilians are still inside. In a typical battle report about the
conquest  of a village we find: 'We cleansed a village, shot in any
direction  where resistance was noticed. After the resistance ended,
we also had  to shoot people so that they would leave or who looked
dangerous'.

The historian Uri Milstein, a myth-breaker, corroborates Yitzhaki's
assessment regarding the massacres' extent and goes even further. 'If
Yitzhaki claims that almost in every village there were  murders, then
I maintain that even before the establishment of the State,  each
battle ended with a massacre. In all Israel's wars massacres were
committed but I have no doubt that the War of Independence was the
dirtiest of them all. All over the world, massacres constitute an
integral part of the norm of war and it is in fact the fundamental
basis  of human conduct in a situation of battle. The idea behind a
massacre  is to inflict a shock on the enemy, to paralyze the enemy.
In the War  of Independence everybody massacred everybody, but most of
the action  happened between Jews and Palestinians.'

Milstein adds: 'In my opinion, the regular armies of Arab states were
less barbaric than the Jews and the Palestinians. Until the entry into
the battle of the Arab armies, the concept of taking prisoners was
unknown.  The regular armies, especially that of Jordan and Egypt,
were the first in the region who did not kill prisoners, as a matter
of principle. Not that they were exceptional, but they killed the
least  of all, relatively speaking. The Jordanian Legion even
succeeded to stop Palestinians of massacring Jews in Gush Etzion, at
least in a part of  this area. The education in the Yishuv (7) at that
time had it that  the Arabs would do anything to kill us and therefore
we had to massacre  them. A substantial part of the Jewish public was
convinced that the  most cherished wish of say, a nine-year old Arab
child, is to exterminate  us. This belief bordered on paranoia.'

A careful study reveals that until today over twenty massacres were
publicly reported. The testimonies were not published in one
collection,  a fact which adds to this phenomenon another dimension.
At least eight  massacres were described by Benny Morris in his book
'The Birth of the  Palestine Refugee Problem'. Two cases were reported
in Milstein's books.  Two cases are reported in the book of
Palestinian historian Arif al-Arif.  The rest were reported in novels,
memories and the press. But it appears  that at least eight more
massacres were committed and these are reported  here for the first
time. Two of them were discovered by Yitzhaki, three  by Milstein, one
case was revealed by Kurtzman and was presented in the introduction to
this reportage. One case was brought to our knowledge by  a kibbutz
member who wishes to remain anonymous and one more case was brought
forth by Dov Yirmiya.

The testimonies concerning the massacres, revealed here for the first
time by Yitzhaki, are kept in the IDF archives. Those who wish to
study  the documents in question confront a refusal. The director,
Miki Kaufman:  'If you are looking for what I believe you are looking
for, then you can  forget it. For any case, just keep in mind that we
are reading over any  documents before you are allowed to see them and
we cull out material  that you should not see'.

A person who already had to face this barrage is Benny Morris. He
addressed  himself to the State Archivist for a report by the Shapira
committee,  nominated by the state, on killings in the War of
Independence, but his  request was denied. 'The Archivist refused to
give me the report and I  went then to the Supreme Court. According to
the [State] Archives Law  (1953), it is possible to access documents
concerning [government]  policies and political matters after 30 years
and documents related to security matters after 50 years. As the
report by the Shapira committee  is a political document issued by the
Ministry of Justice, it had to be  accessible to the public. But after
my request to the State Archivist  and to the courts, the State
Prosecutor and the Archivist made me a  trick. It appeared that by
convening a special meeting of at least two  Cabinet members - in this
case Arens and Sharir - it is possible to  classify any archived
document by arguing that disclosure might endanger state security. The
meeting was duly convened and the document became  classified (...)'

But Yitzhaki kept the testimonies. The first case he presents happened
in Tel Gezer. A soldier of the the Kiryati Brigade (...) testifies
that  his colleagues got hold of ten Arab men and two Arab women, a
young one  and and an old one. All the men were murdered. The young
woman was raped  and her destiny unknown. The old woman was murdered.
Yitzhaki tells that  he discovered the testimony in a specific folder
containing testimonies  from Guard Units ('heil mishmar) in the IDF
archives. Later he also obtained an oral testimony about this event
>from  a person who wishes to  remain anonymous.

Another case happened in Ashdod. Towards the end of August 1948, the
Giv'ati Brigade executed the 'Cleansing Campaign' (Mivtza Nikayon) in
Ashdod's dunes. This happened after the forced landing of an Israeli
plane in the area and the killing of his eight passengers by locals.
A company of mounted cavalry, jeeps and Giv'ati fighters went to  comb
the area. In the course of this action, and according to a
conservative and moderate estimate, ten farmers ('fellahin') were
murdered. Yitzahki says that evidence about that can be found in the
campaign journal of Giv'ati in the IDF archives and in the second
chapter of the book on the Giv'ati Brigade.

'Apart from these cases', says Yitzhaki, 'there are more cases
described  in IDF's archives, but I don't want to disclose them at
this stage. I  will yet write a book.'

The historian Uri Milstein presented in his book series 'The History
of the War of Independence' a number of massacres. Three more cases
came to  his ears after he finished writing. One case happened in Ayn
Zaytoon.  According to Milstein two massacres happened there in
addition to the  case described by Netiva Ben Yehuda in her book
'Within the Bounds'  (mibe'ad la'avutot). Milstein possesses a
testimony from a soldier named  Aharon Yo'eli: 'Three men from Safad
came to Ayn Zaytoon, they took 23  Arabs, told them they were
murderers and gangsters, took from them their  watches and put them in
their pockets, led them over the hills and  killed them. This was the
revenge of the Jews of Safad. I understood  that our commanders were
looking for additional killers to execute such  jobs. Not everybody in
Safad was a hassid. In my opinion this was not an  execution of
prisoners but the killing of Arab murderers. The rest were expelled in
the direction of the Germak that same evening and to make them  go
fast, they we shot at them.'  The second case was reported to Milstein
by a solder named Yitzhak Golan, as he referred to thirty prisoners
who  were brought to interrogation in Har Kna'an: 'The men of the
Intelligence  Unit interrogated them and after the interrogation the
question came up  what to make with them. We were told to take them
down to the Rosh Pina  police station. On the way they attempted to
escape so we shot at them.  There was no alternative. The danger was
that they might reach Safad and would tell there how few weapons and
manpower we had. It is possible  that they were killed chained. Next
morning a plattoon was sent to bury  them'.

Another case happened in Caesarea. In February 1948 the Fourth
Batallion of the Palmach forces, under the command of Josef Tabenkin
(8), conquered  Caesarea. According to Milstein, all those who did not
escape from the  village were killed. Milstein gleaned testimonies
about this fact from  fighters who participated in the conquest.

A member of Kibbutz Be'eri, who was assigned to the the Guard Milices
for a short time, reveals another unpublished case about the murder of
an Arab soldier: 'We were in the strong point in the Wadi Ara area,
near Giv'at Ada. Not far away was a post of Palestinians who fired
>from  time to time at us. One night we raided their post and brought
back a prisoner for interrogation. One of the soldiers of the Guard
Milices took the prisoner after interrogation, beheaded him and with
a knife scalped the head. No one present tried to stop him. He then
tied the skin to a high pole facing the Palestinian post to inspire a
deadly fear in the Palestinians. This soldier was later brought to
trial to the batallion commander.'

On 20 May 1948 the Karmeli Brigade conquered the village Kabri. Dov
Yirmiya, who was a company commander in the 21th gdood, tells: 'Kabri
was conquered without a fight. Almost all inhabitants fled. One of
the soldiers, Yehuda Reshef, who was together with his brother among
the few rescapees from the Yehi'am convoy, got hold of a few
youngsters  who did not escape, probably seven of seven, ordered them
to fill up  some ditches digged as an obstacle and then lined them up
and fired at  them with a machine gun. A few died and some wounded
succeeded to escape.   The batallion commander did not react. Reshef
was a brave fighter and as  a rescapee from the Yehi'am convoy,
enjoyed a special status in the  batallion. He made it later to the
grade of Brigadier General. He  justified his action as an act of
revenge.'

'When the action ended, we left, namely the batallion commander Dov
Tschitchiss, Education Officer Tzadok Eshel, the driver and myself.
We drove over fields to Nahariya. While driving we saw refugees
escaping  to the North. The batallion commander ordered the driver to
stop and went  with the driver and the Education Officer to chase an
Arab who was  escaping with a girl eight or nine years old. I heard
shots and had  scarcely the time to understand what happened. When
they returned, the batallion commander declared: We killed them. I
asked: The girl too?  And he answered to me: No, no, we did not kill
the girl'.
 
The Education Officer, Tzadok Eshel, has already forgotten about the
episode. 'In our Carmeli Brigade', he said, 'we did not commit
massacres. I can tell you about the massacre that the IZL people did
in Haifa. It was typical for the IZL and the LEHI, not to us. It was
totally outside our way of thinking. There was the case of an officer
who wanted to loot a village but they did not allow him.' After
hearing  the testimony of Yermiya, Eshel changed his version: 'Did I
tell you  about this case, no?...Probably I forgot...Yes, there was in
fact one  case where we drove in a jeep and an officer, I don't
remember who, but  I don't think it was the batallion commander,
wanted to shoot down an  Arab with a girl. I told him that if he will
fire at them, I will shoot  at him.When we returned to the jeep I felt
good that I succeeded to stop  such a thing.'  - Yirmiya, in his
testomony mentions [however] shots', -'I don't at all remember that I
was in the jeep. I was in the area.  I tell you, you better leave
these things. There were no such things.'

NOTES:
(1) Lydda: An Arabic town between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Most of its
inhabitants were expelled in 1948 under written orders by Yitzhak
Rabin.

(2) Palmach: Elite troups of the Labour-controlled Hagana forces.

(3) IDF: Israel Defense Forces.

(4) The War of Independence is the name given by Zionists. The
Palestinian Arab call this war the Naqba (The Tragedy). Less loaded
names might be The First Zionist-Palestinian War, or the War of
1947-1948.

(5) Eretz Yisrael: The Hebrew name for the area of Mandatory Palestine
(from the Jordan to the Mediterranean sea). Eretz Yisrael Studies
might also imply the exclusive study of the Jewish community in
Mandatory Palestine.

(6) One of the most potent lies was that the Palestinian Arabs left
under orders of Arab leaders outside Palestine. There is no evidence
for this claim, but it has served Israel very well for 15-20 years.

(7) Yishuv: Jewish society in Mandatory Palestine.

(8) Leader of the Left Socialist Ahdut Avoda movement.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct  7 19:04:55 PDT 1996
Article: 72443 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another myth bites the dust
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 22:45:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Origin: MERCOPUS - 0604 - Mensa-F
  From: JAMES WILLIAMS
    To: JOHN SCHAEFER
  Date: 12/10/93
    Re: Holocaust Revisionists
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JS> His particular failing, to my mind, is that he's one of the leading
JS> proponents of the bizarre canard that the Holocaust never happened.

        In 1985 I decided to research the so-called "Holocaust
        Revisionists" in order to write an article about them.

        Leuchter was not yet on the scene. As I understand it he is not,
        in any case, a historian, but an engineer. His sole contribution
        to the dialogue has been his contribution of a professional
        opinion that the alleged gas chambers inspected at
        Auschwitz-Birkenau could not have functioned in accordance with
        the orthodox Holocaust historical account.

        Since then, the change of watch in Poland has somewhat lessened
        the anti-German sentiment, and two admissions have been made by
        the Auschwitz Museum administration:
                1. the Auschwitz mortality previously announced at 4
                million has been reduced to no more than 1.4 million;
                2. the "gas chambers" now on display are post-war
                "reconstructions" and therefore bear about as much
                relationship to the wartime Auschwitz as Disneyland's
                "Pirates of the Caribbean" bears to Jamaica.

        It is not for me to comment on Leuchter; I did not know of him
        in 1985 nor interview him. The downscaling of Auschwitz claims
        was partly done by David Cole's investigations; he is a Jewish
        American, also new on the scene since my investigations.

        The three West Coast revisionists I interviewed were:
                        1. David McCalden (since deceased)
                        2. Bradley Smith
                        3. Institute for Historical Review.

        Bluntly, NOT ONE of these would adopt the position that the
        holocaust did not occur. They ALL take positions calling for
        skepticism about many Holocaust claims.

        Some of their skepticism has been justified by abandonment of
        specific claims by orthodox Holocaust historians, such as Yad
        Vashem Museum and Deborah Lipstadt. In addition to the Auschwitz
        statistics (above), for example, the "human soap" myth has been
        identified as a recycled war story from the French Army in World
        War ONE. There WAS no "human soap." The "human skin lampshades"
        are questionable and untested. And in Buchenwald, the death rate
        was HIGHER after the war when the Russians used it as a prison
        camp, than it had been under Nazi rule. The Kommandant of one
        camp was court-martialed because TOO MANY prisoners died.

        Anyway, I decided at last there was NO story to write because
        there ARE NO deniers of the Holocaust. If they exist, they are
        not around here. Maybe Butz (Middle West) or Faurisson( France),
        but so far as I was willing to travel to interview alleged
        "deniers" of the Holocaust, I concluded THEY DID NOT EXIST. If
        ANYBODY alleges that the Holocaust never happened I would like
        to know who they are, what they said, where and when. Absent
        such evidence, I am compelled to regard "Holocaust denial" as a
        myth.

---
 þ OLX 2.1 TD þ MSI - Bringing it all together in '92

--- Mosaic v1.31
 * Origin: Mushin BBS - Join the InfoMushin Age! (1:202/604)
<*>


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:22 PDT 1996
Article: 72470 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Pollard of course
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:18:21 GMT
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From: nyt@blythe.org (NY Transfer News)
Message-Id: <8Jsegc38w165w@blythe.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 11:48:54 EST
Organization: NY Transfer News Collective

>From  uunet!igc.apc.org!nytransfer  Mon Jan 17 20:59:21 1994 remote from
nyxfer
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To: igc.apc.org!nytransfer
Subject: Will Clinton Free Israel's Spy?

/* Written  2:00 am  Jan 17, 1994 by mideastdesk@igc.apc.org in
igc:mideast.levant */
/* ---------- "Will Clinton Free Israel's Spy?" ---------- */
From: 
Subject: Will Clinton Free Israel's Spy?


This article appeared in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,
January 1994.  The Washinton Report is published monthly since 1982 by
the American Educational Trust (AET), a non-profit foundation in
Washington, DC.

Subscriptions: $19 in the U.S., $30 in Canada, and $55 overseas.
Address: P.O.Box 53062
Washington, DC 20009
Phone: (202) 939-6050
    Will Clinton Yield to Pressure and Free American Who Spied
for Israel?  By Tim Kennedy

     Five years ago, shortly before a federal judge handed
confessed spy Jonathan Jay Pollard a lifetime prison sentence
for selling classified intelligence documents to Israel,
Pollard mad an impassioned plea for mercy.  "I broke faith
and took the law into my own hands," he admitted.  "I should
have recognized the infectious nature on an ideology,
Zionism."

     Pollard, who worked as a civilian intelligence analyst
for the Navy, admitted that he was recruited by Israel in
1984 and passed along tens of thousands of pages of
classified documents until Nov. 18, 1985, when he was
arrested while attempting to seek asylum at the Israeli
Embassy in Washington.  Israel paid Pollard more than $45,000
in cash for the stolen documents, and promised to deposit at
least $300,000 more in a Swiss bank account.

     "It is likely he will never see the light of day again,"
Pollard's prosecutor, U.S. Attorney Joseph diGenova said
after Pollard's sentencing in March 1987.  According to court
records, Pollard's spy activities compromised a record number
of classified documents, and provided his Israeli handlers
with descriptions of covert intelligence programs, the
identities of undercover Mideast agents, and technical
assessments of radar and other military electronic equipment
used by Israel's Arab neighbors.

     In a court affidavit, then-Secretary of Defense Caspar
Weinberger said:  "[It is] difficult for me to conceive of a
greater harm to national security than that caused by Pollard
in view of the breadth, the critical importance to the U.S.,
and the high sensitivity of the information he sold to
Israel."

     During a November visit to the White House, Israeli
Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin--who became his country's
defense minister shortly after Pollard was recruited as a
spy--asked President Bill Clinton to commute Pollard's life
term and release him from prison.

     When a White House reporter asked Clinton and Rabin to
comment on the Pollard release proposal, the president said:
 "We discussed it and I explained that, under our procedures
here, I cannot make a decision on the Pollard case until the
Justice Department makes a recommendation to me."  Clinton
added, however, that "Under the terms of the United States
constitution, I do not have to follow the recommendation of
the Justice Department..."

     The U.S. Attorney's Office in Washington, which
prosecuted the original case, has already told the head of
the Justice Department, Attorney General Janet Reno, that it
opposes early release for Pollard.  "We have stated our
strong opposition to the possibility of Jonathan Pollard
having his sentence commuted," a source at the U.S.
Attorney's office, speaking on condition of anonymity, told
the Washington Report.  "This is based on the strong damage
that Pollard's activities inflicted on the United States."

     Law enforcement and intelligence community officials
worry that Pollard, once out of jail will reveal additional
U.S. military secrets, the source said.  There also is worry
among the officials in the American intelligence community
that the secret information collected by Israeli intelligence
"has been severely compromised by agents from the former
Soviet republics and, possibly, other foreign powers."

     "When all these considerations are taken together," says
the government source, "Pollard's release could cause
continued damage to American intelligence assets."  Insiders
at various intelligence agencies predict, however, that
Clinton will ignore the advice of the country's top law
enforcement officials, and will commute Pollard's sentence.
     "Pollard will be released before the end of the year," a
Mideast expert at the Defense Intelligence Agency predicted
flatly.  Asked why Clinton would make such a decision, the
DIA official says, "Because it's a new American
administration, and it's a new Israeli government."
     The DIA official said he was disappointed with the
situation, and added, "The Likud government never officially
asked for [Pollard's] release.  This one [the Rabin
government] has."
     George A. Carver, Jr., a former senior intelligence
officer who is now a fellow with the Washington-based Center
for Strategic and International Studies, does not conceal his
anger at the possibility of Pollard's release:  "Pollard is
precisely where he deserves to be ... in prison," Carver told
the Washington Report.  "I can't see any reason to let him
out.  When a person commits espionage for a foreign power,
it's still espionage, whether it's for Israel or anybody
else."

A ZIONIST HERO

     To many Israelis and Jewish Americans, Pollard is a
Zionist hero who has been sold short by Israeli politicians
and his former intelligence officers.  Various pro-Israel
groups in the U.S. and abroad have lobbied for Pollard's
release and routinely run full-page ads in major U.S.
newspapers.  These groups have also raised millions of
dollars to cover Pollard's legal expenses.  The fund-raising
effort is being led by the Israeli Public Committee for the
Release of Jonathan Pollard.
     The Israeli government is banking Pollard's $5,000
monthly salary, according to CNN correspondent Wolf Blitzer.
The cash is to serve as a "little nest egg," should Pollard
ever be released from prison and move to Israel.
     The $5,000 monthly stipend, Blitzer wrote in his book,
Territory of Lies, is twice what the former counter-
intelligence analyst was paid each month by the U.S. Navy.
Blitzer says there is a "tradition in the Israeli
intelligence community" that captured espionage agents have
their former salaries doubled and set aside for them.
     Soon after it was established, the Israeli Public
Committee began urging Israel to formally demand Pollard's
release.  In 1991, the committee's spokesman, Amnon Dror,
learned that Israel reportedly holds several U.S.-backed
spies.  Dror has since aggressively urged the Israeli
government to "swap" Pollard for one of these imprisoned
agents.
     Officially, the U.S. government denies that Israel is
holding any American spies.  However, Yitzhak Rabin told
Israeli journalist Yossi Melman in early 1986 that "Israel
had discovered five American spies in the late 1970s and
early 1980s in sensitive nuclear and industrial facilities."
     Thomas Powers, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times,
writes that the CIA`s "working relationship with Israeli
intelligence [the Mossad] is one of the agency's oldest and
closest, rivaled only by its ties to the British Secret
Intelligence Service."  What made the relationship between
the CIA and Mossad unique, say intelligence service insiders,
was the tacit mutual understanding that the two countries
would not spy on each other.
     According to CIA lore, of which there is plenty on this
subject, the Agency's fabled counterespionage chief, James
Jesus Angleton, considered Israel part of his ~secret
fiefdom," and reportedly had close friendships with many
Israeli leaders, including former Israeli intelligence agent
and longtime Jerusalem mayor Teddy Kollek.
     The CIA's cozy relationship with Israel turned sour in
1982, sources say, shortly after Israel's invasion of
Lebanon.  According to a speech delivered in early 1987 by
former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman David F.
Durenberger (R-MN), the CIA's then-director, William J.
Casey, "changed the rules of the game" by authorizing the
recruitment of an Israeli military officer, who, unhappy with
the invasion, offered the CIA classified information about
the U.S. government.
     Israeli spying activities in the United States were siad
to have been ongoing for "years" when John Davitt, former
head of the U.S. Justice Department's internal security
division, was interviewed by The Washington Post.
     Retired since 1980, Davitt was responsible for reviewing
all espionage cases pending at the Justice Department.  He
said Israeli intelligence services were "more active than
anyone by the KGB [former Soviet intelligence service] ...
They were targeted on the United States about half the time,
and on Arab countries about half the time."
     Pulitzer Prize-winning author Seymour M. Hersh writes in
The Sampson Option that Pollard gave Israel top-secret U.S.
intelligence on the Soviet Union, and former Isreli Prime
Minister Yitzhak Shamir approved passing on some of the most
important of that information to the Soviets.
     Hersh's book, a well-documented account of the
development of Israel's nuclear weapons program, insists
Pollard was recruited by Mossad in 1981--three years earlier
than the U.S. espionage charges against him alleged.  Hersh
claims Israel has a portion of its nuclear arsenal targeted
on the former Soviet Union, and that Pollard was recruited by
the Mossad to gain sensitive targeting data for these Israeli
nuclear weapons.
     "The nuclear targeting data supplied by Pollard included
top-secret intelligence on the location of Soviet military
targets," Hersh writes.  "Some of the most important Pollard
documents were retyped and sanitized by Israeli intelligence
officials and then made available to the Soviet Union as a
gesture of goodwill, at the specific instructions of Yitzhak
Shamir."
     According to George Carver's assessment of the documents
stolen by Pollard, "sanitization" would be difficult.  "[The
documents were in] such detail," said Carver in 1985, "that a
professional analyst could discern what U.S. collection
systems must have been used to acquire these data, the
capabilities and limitations of those systems, and even, in
some cases, likely identities of human agents."
     Confirmation of the concerns expressed by Hersh and U.S.
law enforcement officials regarding infiltration of Israeli
intelligence by foreign powers can be found by a careful
reading of the Israeli press.  Over the past six months, four
spy scandals have occurred in Israel involving secret "moles"
who infiltrated the Israeli government to supply the ex-
Soviet Union with "political and military intelligence."
Reuters reports that "two more spy cases would be revealed
shortly."
     The most highly placed of these espionage agents is
Shimon Levinson, the former head of security in the prime
minister's office.  Levinson, who was once a colonel in the
Israeli intelligence service, has been sentenced to prison
for 12 years for spying on behalf of the KGB.
_____________________________________________________________
Tim Kennedy, an analyst based in Washington, DC, writes about
defense technology and foreign affairs.

=====


The Electronic Telegraph    Wednesday 27 March 1996   World News
                                                       


By Hugh Davies in Washington

AMERICA is resisting renewed pressure from Jerusalem to release Jonathan
Pollard, a United States naval intelligence officer who spied for Israel.

Pollard, 43, passed some of America's most sensitive military secrets to
Israel in the early Eighties to help Jerusalem to combat terrorism and
threats from Iraq.

He is eligible for parole from a prison at Butner, North Carolina, where he
has spent most of the last decade.

Senior national security officials strongly oppose his release before the
statutory date of 2015. the White House chief-of-staff, Leon Panetta, said
there was no chance of clemency "at this time".

However, a powerful effort is under way to free him, from the Israeli
government and prominent American Jewish organisations.

Pollard's supporters contend that he delivered information as a matter of
conscience, although he was paid as much as $2,500 (£1,600) a month, plus
$300,000 paid into a Swiss bank account.

The Israeli consul in Atlanta, Eitan Surkis-Almog, has visited Pollard in
his cell, but the spy is said to have cut short the meeting, demanding a
visit from the Israeli ambassador to Washington, Itamar Rabinovich.

Pollard is said to have told the consul: "The Americans will never deal
seriously with my case if the Israeli government does not do so."

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:23 PDT 1996
Article: 72482 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!snunews.snu.ac.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Lies Again
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:20:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <53chc9$jv6@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <53a9uq$n31@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53b0mn$2fm@news.enter.net>
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On 7 Oct 1996 13:31:03 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 6 Oct 1996 03:51:30 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  >>   jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>>  >>  When you've finished slogging through the man's cheap shots, insanity,
>>  >>  spamming, ridicule, hatred, bizarre hypocrisy, trolling, Jew-bashing,
>>  >>  and insult after insult after insult after insult after disgusting
>>  >>  insult -- nonsense which has continued for almost nine months -- then
>>  >>  perhaps you'll understand that intemperate language is quite normal in
>>  >>  this instance.  Matt Giwer would try the patience of a saint, and we
>>  >>  don't claim to be saints.
>  
>>  >	Please note as well, his activities off the newsgroup.  After sending me 
>>  >abusive e-mail Giwer was asked to stop.  His reply was the single line "I am tired 
>>  >of your shit.  Fuck off."  To emphasize his disregard of the rights of other he 
>>  >followed that communication with an e-mail of his anti-Semitic rants.  Giwer' 
>>  >account at Netcom was suspended for this (among other reasons).
>>  
>>  >	Sorry.  To call Giwer pond scum is an insult to pond scum.
>>  
>>  	Let us keep this straight, you are in violation of your oath as an officer
>>  of the court or you are lying.  

>	What oath, criminal.  Please tell me all about it.

	The one you took, jew.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:24 PDT 1996
Article: 72497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Fat Broads of Belsen
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:16:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	And this one is just for little Danny Keren


In her book $I Was A Doctor In Auschwitz$, Gisella Perl, who ar-
rived at Belsen on March 7, 1945, reported open prostitution in 
the camp: "there were some who sold their bodies for cigarettes, 
chocolate and other small comforts." According to her account, 
liaisons between servicemen and female inmates were very common, 
though one should not of course judge people harshly for acting 
so in such terrible times. The one thing that can be said in Mrs 
Turgel's favour is that she rose far above this sort of thing and 
remained happily married for over forty years.

	Notice, oh CS major, that as late as March 7, 1945 they are prostituting
for the "small comforts" and not for food.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:24 PDT 1996
Article: 72498 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:21:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:21:36 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>>  How many times do we have to tell this individual that he owns the
>>>  burden of his own doubts? If an historian has a doubt he researches
>>>  his doubt until it is satisfied using proper historical methods. Most
>>>  good and well trained historians do not walk up to their colleagues
>>>  and proclaim that accepted history is false and that they should prove
>>>  it. What they will do is throw the works of history already done on
>>>  the subject and tell him to do his own work. Blackmore/Belling or
>>>  whoever doesn't seem to be able to grasp this concept.
>>>  
>>>>>>
>>No.  You do not set the framework for who needs to prove what to whom.

>The rules of debate do. The rules of historical research do. 

>>You are the prosecutors.

>I'm not. I simply look at the historical record. History is full of
>problematic areas that people have trouble dealing with. A small
>minority of dolts have trouble with the Jewish Holocaust for what
>seems to be only hate. I can't think of any other reason. 

>No one denies the the Salem trials and other American Puritan
>witch-hunts.

	Sakem was the only one.  

>No one denies various massacres of native Americans that were also
>based on hate.

	Only those who know nothing about the subject fail to deny it.  

>No one denies that Black's were slaves.

>No one denies that John Brown was hung.

>No one denies the horrors of the post war world.

>No one denies the Russian Revolution.

>No one denies the American Revolution.

>No one denies the inquisition. 

>No one seems to be denying the murder of gypsies, Russian POWs,
>homosexuals, the genetically ill, the retarded, and other none Jewish
>victims of the Nazis. What is so telling is the scope of the denial
>that is presented by the distortionists. This seems to zero in on the
>Jewish aspect of the Holocaust. This really topples the credibility of
>the deniers.

	What is interesting is that we can't even get passed the Jews to get around
to discussing the six million footnote.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:25 PDT 1996
Article: 72501 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:30:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
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References: <32527165.152005931@news.zilker.net> <52vkse$f8k@juliana.sprynet.com> <325f11fd.331882132@news.zilker.net>
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:26:04 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>>   m
>> I beleive it is you who are swept
>>>  away with the plethora of data and information that makes up the truth
>>>  of history in these two cases.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>>>>
>>Nice try, but it doesn't fly.  Nizkor states that Jewish people and others were
>>gassed at Dachau. 

>URL? BTW, Nizkor is a group of volunteers and amateur historians. I
>think you need to focus on what you really have to deal with here and
>that isn't Nizkor, but rather with the works of degreed historians and
>other qualified researchers on the holocaust.

	And which of the two are you referring to?  

	To which EXACT verison of the contradictory and impossible versions are you
specifically referring to?  

	Specificity is required as there are too many versions.  If one version is
dispatched some holohugger will bring up another version and swear by it.
Just like that idiot McVay and his people hearing laughter and seeing faces
of pilots from inside closed trucks.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:26 PDT 1996
Article: 72504 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:11:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:09:02 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <325a8d70.60694386@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>> schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>> 
>> >John Morris (jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >: It is rather telling that our great Holocaust researcher, rblackmore,
>> >: fails to recognize that Moran's account does not match the standard
>> >: narrative history. For instance, no one but Moran has claimed that
>> >: gassing at Auschwitz was stopped four or five months before the camp
>> >: was captured by the Soviets.
>> 
>> >I missed the beginning of this thread.  Is the difference between moran's
>> >claim and the truth significant, or is it just another example of his
>> >sloppy "research" methods?
>> 
>> I was a little sloppy, too. Moran actually said that "it is said" that
>> gassing stopped at Auschwitz-Birkenau four or five months before the
>> Soviets captured the camp. I think he was trying to suggest that the
>> Soviets have been credited with an unrealistic prescience by
>> destroying evidence (the Kremas) so long before the Soviets occupued
>> the camp.
>> 
>> The SS, however, began dismantling the Kremas after the gassing
>> stopped in November 1944, two months before the Soviets arrived.
>> 
>> I dunno. Is a difference of two or three months vs two months
>> significant? Given the rate of the Soviet advance, allowing only two
>> months to remove capital assets from Birkenau was almost cutting
>> things too fine, since the Kremas were dynamited only days before the
>> Soviets arrived.
>> 

>The "difference," I think, has more to do with the German Army than with
>the plans of the SS to erase the evidence of genocide at Birkenau. Hitler,
>after being warned by Guderian in early January that the German forces on
>the Eastern front were overextended and needed to be reinforced and
>consolidated, failed to appreciate the precarioius position the German
>Army was in -and the dire threat a new offensive by the Red Army would
>pose.  

>The result of Hitler's egotism was that when the Red Army launched its
>January 12, 1944, offensive the German positions on the Eastern Front
>promptly collapsed, sending the German forces into a pell-mell retreat.
>This, of course, immediately- and unexpectedly -exposed the entire
>Auchwitz region to capture by the Red Army. The result was that all the
>plans and execution of the methodical erasure of the killings
>installations at Birkenau went right out the window around January 14,
>1944, as it became quite evident that the German lines would not hold.
>Thus, it was decided that the Auschwitz complex would be hastily abandoned
>on January 17, 1944, and was indeed evacuated starting the next day.

>In the panic of the evacuation, and almost as an afterthought, Kremas II,
>III, V, were dyanmited and the 30 storerooms in Kanada, holding plunder
>from the murdered victims, were torched.  

	Amazing.  All of this suprise and the resultant panic were the reason the
Frank and Wiesel families were evacuated months before. 

	Do you ever look for consistancy in the things you believe?  

	The more I see you folks post, the less surprised I am that this holocaust
crap is still around.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:27 PDT 1996
Article: 72507 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is there no revisionist version of Nizkor?
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:14:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <53ch0q$jv6@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <5206v6$b2q@orion.cybercom.net>  <526v4e$pqg@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <533qnr$50j@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <537m7n$o1p@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53bdl5$9oe@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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On 7 Oct 1996 18:12:05 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	There is the ever present holohugger fantasy that s aimple response is
>>a refutation.  And then a presumption that a refutation is a negation.

>	You mean simple responses like the ones at these URLs?:
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/leuchter.fred/leuchter.faq1
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/leuchter.fred/leuchter.faq2
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/leuchter.fred/shallit.report
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/leuchter.fred/merck

>	I think you will fin========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

    You will recall from last time we had 2000 tons of bone 
fragments from Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  
That was based upon the internet cremation society's statement of 
5-7 pound of bone fragements remaining after cremation and I used 
5 pounds so as not to exaggerate the number.

2-7-96 @ 

Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has 
asked me to design and fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I 
have no idea where to start.Do you have design specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size 
adult, the urn should have a capacity of at least 205 cubic 
inches. Beyond that requirement, any shape, size and design is 
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

    This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to 
fine at Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  
This latter is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it 
would cover three acres about one foot deep.  However there a 
convenient river there that has never been probed.

    So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we 
have enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 
inches with bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at 
some point coring would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone 
fragments.  

    But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot 
deep core fragments.  So let me address that for our applied 
mathematician.  The false assumption is that 27 feet means 
anything.  He assumes that 27 feet means distributed over the 27 
foot core.  The fallacy of that assumption is that a 1000 foot 
core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


    If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or 
layers of these bone fragments.  

    For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the 
layers. It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:28 PDT 1996
Article: 72508 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Giwer... drunk yet again.... Re: Rev Bobbie Sch*ber
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:14:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:42:59 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:

>In article <537omj$akg@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On the other hand, you are a lying bitch.  YOU made a claim about your son.
>> I pointed out only that your claim was impossible.  I did not attack your
>> son, I attacked you as a liar about your son. 

>The insult dishonors only its author.

	Is that supposed to be profound or just the best you can do?


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:29 PDT 1996
Article: 72509 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:46:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <53cisd$gas@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bid$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <536h0p$4os@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <53acpr$7sb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:41:11 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># A nice collection of lies, oh dickless one.  There are no such
># things but I am certain dickless Jews have given what the did 
># find a proper Jewish burial and even prayed over horse hair 
># as being jewish horses.

>The hair is there in Auschwitz. You have posted yourself that
>large amounts of it were found. Now you're denying it?

	I posted no such thing.  I simply point out that there has never been
anything found made of pure jewess hair. 

>Get a grip... I guess "get a job" is asking way too much.

	Why do you think working for someone else is such an impressive
accomplishment?  And the answer for you is that your feelings of self worth
are contingent upon others opinions of you.  That is why you can not
deviate from holohuggery.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:29 PDT 1996
Article: 72517 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:56:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:05:34 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># I have posted the overall picture of Birkenau which included IV
># and V and they are as close to the barracks as the barracks are 
># to each other.  

>What is their location with regard to the SS HQ in Birkenau?

>What is the location of the so-called "bunkers"?

	You tell me why you are asking the questions, jew traitor.  

># There are no trees any where in sight.  

>You must be blind.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Krema4.jpg

>These are not trees? 

	That is your captioning.  I am posting the real pictures.  

># Grow up and get a life beyond the holocaust.  

>Please get a job and become a productive member of society, instead
>of a leech.

	You self worth is totally enwrapped in what someone else will pay you.
That is pitiful.
 
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:30 PDT 1996
Article: 72521 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:51:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:14:22 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: 
>: >A small rug, or doormat, made of human hair, was found and 
>: >is now in Yad-Vashem. But more than that: huge amounts of
>: >human hair were found in Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they are
>: >still there.
>: 
>: A nice collection of lies, oh dickless one.  There are no such things

>Visit Yad Vashem.

	Been there.  Done that.  Not impressed in the least.  

>See Swiebocka: _Auschwitz: A History in Photographs_, 1993, p. 211.

	Scan it in and post it.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:31 PDT 1996
Article: 72524 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:06:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:57:03 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

	Lets start this off right.  They were not in trains.  They were in a truck
convoy.  The words from the Nizkor approved post are

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

	Wagon train is a poor translation for truck convoy. 

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:

># For example, as you pretend not to know, may I refer you to the
># repeated posting of Ada Lichtmann's testimony at the Demjanjuk trial.
># In her testimony, she speaks of the sound of the laughter of fighter
># pilots who were machine-gunning the boarded up train cattle car in
># which she was travelling, amongst other things. I would venture to
># suggest that it would not be possible for her to hear their laughter,
># nor even see their faces. To expand, (as you seem to be in naive and
># stupid mode at present).
># 1. The sound of a fighter plane engine is rather louder than that
># of a person laughing.

>The sound of a strong engine is loud indeed. However, sit in
>a car with a strong engine, rev it up, and scream. Will someone
>standing by hear you scream?

	Keren, you silly shit.  You sit inside of a closed truck (it is in the
Nizkor certified true post) and you claim you can see the faces and hear
the laughter of the pilots of fighter planes passing overhead at a minimum
of 100 mile per hour and a minimum of 100 feet in the air.  

	Any rational person knows that it would be a problem hearing laughter from
a hundred feet away in an open field much less under these conditions.  

># 2. The sound of machine guns is louder than human laughter.

>Didn't she explicitly say that she heard them laugh when they
>were not shooting?

	Did you specifically BELIEVE that is possible from insitde the closed truck
under the above conditions or are you just trying to pull someone's leg?  

># 3. The cattle car in which Miss Lichtmann was travelling  was boarded
># up, reducing any chance of reception of the higher frequencies of the
># human voice.

>Eh? 

	Is that Canadian or do you want the sound of the laughter repeated?  

># 4. The dying, who were close to the witness, were screaming. This
># would tend to mask the sound of laughter from a pilot who was at least
># 50 or 60 feet away from Miss Lichtmann.

>Has it occurred to you that people can hear and identify many
>sounds at the same time, or during a very short time?

	Have you really never been near a single engine plane where you have to
shout to be heard?  And at hundred miles an hour?  And at that height?  

	And here was this dumb broad (probably in the Keren family tree) being shot
at and looking out through the slats to see their faces.  You folks are
really dumb but I can see where you got it.  

># 5. The pilot might have been wearing an oxygen mask - which would
># have further reduced any escaping sound.

>At such a low height, he would have to wear an oxygen mask? What is
>this rubbish?

	That is one point.  

># 6. The cockpit of the fighter plane would probably have been closed -
># further reducing the escape of the sound of laughter.

>And if the pilot opened it?

	Have you ever had a 100 MPH category 2 hurricane force winds hit you in the
face?  The noise the wind would make in the cockpit would be lounder than a
shouting human voice.  But then you know nothing of turbulent flow.  You
are only a CS major.  

>What you did was present testimony which may be false. I am not
>sure. 

	McVay and therefore Nizkor swears to it being true.  You know that.  

People in such a situation - being shot at - are, possibly,
>not the most accurate witnesses. 

	You miss the point.  The entire idea of Germans firing on their own
equipment and materiel during the war is what is absurd.  They would have
been shooting up their own trucks and drivers at the same time.  

	Do you not realize how stupid that sounds?  

Then, you switch to the typical
>"revisionist" rubbish of "since this testimony is false, the
>Holocaust is a hoax". So, since we have "testimony" about 
>Dresden's bombing which is obviously insane, we can, by the
>same "logic", decide that the city was never bombed.

	You are back to displaying your ignorance of what constitutes physical
evidence.  

># Later in the same testimony, we hear of people being taken off the
># train and being forced to dance. Not impossible I grant you, but so
># impractical. 

>The Nazis did practice this kind of "fun". There are some rather
>well-known photos, of German soldiers brutalizing Jews (kicking
>them, cutting their beards). 

	That is not the subject but rather forcing people to dance naked.  Any
other claims you wish to justify as true are up to you to demonstrate, they
are not assumed true simplly because you say them.  

># This gives us:
># 60 / 7.9 = 7.594936708 minutes per body.

>But a few corpses (usually 3) were cremated in the same muffle.
>No big problem; this is not standard procedure, out of obvious
>reasons (respect for the dead, the need to collect the ashes of
>each separate corpse), but these were not factors in Birkneau.
>Moreover, there was a high percentage of children and infants
>among the victims, and their corpses occupy much less space.

	Hey, silly shit.  You have been directed to the website and what it says
has been pointed out to you many times.  Three bodies takes three times
longer to burn.  You know that.  We all know that. 

>These figures are supported by Nazi documents.

	"Documents" do not change reality.  It does not matter what they say.  It
can not happen.  BUT NONE claim 7.6 minutes per body even in the wildest
imagination of the forger.  

>But perhaps the best refutation of this particular piece of
>"revisionist" rubbish is the fact that the Germans burned numerous
>corpses of people who died in Dresden, in rather the same
>method they burned corpses in some of the camps. I have
>posted to Nizkor's site a photo of corpses being burned 
>in that manner; one has to assume that, next, "revisionists"
>will claim that Jews and "Aryans" don't burn in the same way?

	Obviously they do not as Jews can be burned by a special method without
fuel.  Obviously Jews are not only different but not of this world as they
burn differently and the bodies of their infants can be torn apart by a
man's bare hands.  
	
	From the stories Nizkor is certitying as true, it is clear Jews are not of
this earth.  

># Really Mr Keren, this is getting laughable. I refer you to the amount
># of ash, 6 or 7 pound weight per body, disposed of in Treblinka, a
># small site. If there were 1000,000 people cremated there, whether in
># pits or ovens, then there would have to be at least 6000,000 pounds of
># ash. That is a lot of volume of ash to be disposed of.

>Rubbish, plain and simple. In terms of volume, relative to the
>volume of earth in which the ashes were discarded, it's tiny.

>You obviously cannot handle basic arithmetic. Reminds me of
>another "leading revisionist" in this group.

	Really?  A small volume?  You do recall this do you not?  5200 cubic yards
is "small"?  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

    You will recall from last time we had 2000 tons of bone 
fragments from Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  
That was based upon the internet cremation society's statement of 
5-7 pound of bone fragements remaining after cremation and I used 
5 pounds so as not to exaggerate the number.

2-7-96 @ 

Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has 
asked me to design and fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I 
have no idea where to start.Do you have design specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size 
adult, the urn should have a capacity of at least 205 cubic 
inches. Beyond that requirement, any shape, size and design is 
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

    This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to 
fine at Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  
This latter is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it 
would cover three acres about one foot deep.  However there a 
convenient river there that has never been probed.

    So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we 
have enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 
inches with bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at 
some point coring would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone 
fragments.  

    But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot 
deep core fragments.  So let me address that for our applied 
mathematician.  The false assumption is that 27 feet means 
anything.  He assumes that 27 feet means distributed over the 27 
foot core.  The fallacy of that assumption is that a 1000 foot 
core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


    If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or 
layers of these bone fragments.  

    For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the 
layers. It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  

>Moreover, ashes and human remains *were* found, mixed with earth,
>up to a depth of 7.5 meters in Treblinka.

	Along with finding hair and flesh after decades in the ground which is why
the story is clearly false.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:32 PDT 1996
Article: 72527 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Silly shit giwer, why?
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:21:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <53ches$jv6@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:   <53a6cr$sf5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53bdoh$9r3@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53bj86$ctc@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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On 7 Oct 1996 11:47:34 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>[An ignorant sot said "You silly shit."]

>>	Oh look, a new Giwerism!!

>Not really - Mr. Giwer's fascination with fecal matter is

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

    You will recall from last time we had 2000 tons of bone 
fragments from Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  
That was based upon the internet cremation society's statement of 
5-7 pound of bone fragements remaining after cremation and I used 
5 pounds so as not to exaggerate the number.

2-7-96 @ 

Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has 
asked me to design and fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I 
have no idea where to start.Do you have design specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size 
adult, the urn should have a capacity of at least 205 cubic 
inches. Beyond that requirement, any shape, size and design is 
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

    This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to 
fine at Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  
This latter is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it 
would cover three acres about one foot deep.  However there a 
convenient river there that has never been probed.

    So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we 
have enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 
inches with bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at 
some point coring would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone 
fragments.  

    But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot 
deep core fragments.  So let me address that for our applied 
mathematician.  The false assumption is that 27 feet means 
anything.  He assumes that 27 feet means distributed over the 27 
foot core.  The fallacy of that assumption is that a 1000 foot 
core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


    If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or 
layers of these bone fragments.  

    For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the 
layers. It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:32 PDT 1996
Article: 72529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: let us review the sucker bait
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:41:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
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	For two days I post that the character assassination tactics of the
holohuggers are from the Protocols.  After the first day, I start getting
demands that I post from the Protocols to prove it.  On the second day, I
post words not from the Protocols that support the original claim and all
the questioning stops.  

	Why is that?  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:33 PDT 1996
Article: 72530 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:39:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <53cig1$c6q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bg1$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <534o45$em1@news.enter.net> <53abh7$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53bq51$ehl@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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On 7 Oct 1996 21:45:21 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	No need to listen to a dickless oath violater such as yourself.  

>	Matt, are you going to sue Nizkor for copyright violation?

	Not at the moment.  For now I will simply continue to object and point it
out to those who I find carrying a link to Nizkor.  And let them know just
what kind of organization they are supporting with the link.  

	On the other hand, after Nizkor has answered the libel suit from another
case soon to be filed, I have been offered all the help I want and all the
discovery from that case.  That will give me a better determination as to
what Nizkor is worth and if worth the suit.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:34 PDT 1996
Article: 72531 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SciFi Channel Sightings
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:42:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	In the next episode there will be the ultimate eyewintess testimony to the
holocuast.  

	In his last life he was a Dutch Jew murdered by the Nazis.  

	Watch and believe.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:35 PDT 1996
Article: 72543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:50:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <53cml4$pk3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <3258dcd4.507850@news.demon.co.uk>  <53bvj2$49e@crl13.crl.com>
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On 7 Oct 1996 15:18:10 -0700, Don't Read wrote:

>In  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:

>> Moreover, ashes and human remains *were* found, mixed with earth,
>> up to a depth of 7.5 meters in Treblinka.

>Ashes can be good fertilizer, ask any small farmer.

>With the efficiency drive as part of the Holocaust, it'd be wasteful
>to discard the ashes, if I'm not mistaken.

	Except that cremation does not produce ashes but burned bones which are
then crushed into fragments of some size for the urn.  There is an internet
cremation society.  Search for it and read for yourself.  

	The grinding size at Auschwitz was one centimeter by the sieve size.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:36 PDT 1996
Article: 72559 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Self-annointed Jews as atheist jews know
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:55:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <53cqe0$s23@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52ro9n$s0n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52t2eu$npm@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <534bg7$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <536dc7$nir@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53ac8g$640@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <32598dfa.28692037@news.spry.com>
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 23:11:27 GMT, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 07:40:56 GMT, mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
>wrote:


>>	Every atheist jew knows that jews are self-annointed and self righteous
>>assholes just like the Christian Coalition.  They are all worthless and
>>meaningless slime of the earth.

>But you're not an antisemite, are you, little man?

	No more than I am anti-christian or anti-muslim or anti-Buddist.  They are
all terminal idiots.  There is no crime or approbrium to any of the above.


	But even more idiotic than the idiots are those who abjure the religious
belief in Jewish by matrilineal descent and claim being jewish by
matrilineal descent.  

	Those are the ones the drooling idiots are able to pity.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:37 PDT 1996
Article: 72561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE MANY-FACED ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 06:00:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <53cqof$15i@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52khfn$p0h@faith.total.net>  <52tnno$32b@news1.total.net>  <537c1g$og3@news1.total.net>  <538ltt$gao@faith.total.net> <844671292snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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On Mon, 07 Oct 96 06:54:52 GMT, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander
Baron) wrote:

>In article <538ltt$gao@faith.total.net>
>           jtoth@infobahnos.com "Judith Toth" writes:

>> 
>> >You're missing the point. Practically no one here is interested in
>> >defending the Soviet Union, or Stalin, or even Ilya Ehrenburg if he did
>> >write the anti-German tracts which have been posted. Deniers often try 
>> >to imply that to expose Nazi atrocities is to defend Soviet atrocities,
>> >but this is a twisted logic peculiar to deniers.

>No one here, maybe, obviously though you haven't made a study of the make
>up of the "anti-fascist" movement, which in Britain, the US and France at 
>least is dominated by the hard left.

	And that objection is politically motivated as the left, in the US at
least, is primarily fascist in that it passes laws to force private
enterprise to promote politicla agendas.  It also holds that everyone has
the bill of rights as a protection unless the person is an employer; making
employers second class citizens without any protections from the bill of
rights.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:37 PDT 1996
Article: 72564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!solace!news.stealth.net!news.ibm.net.il!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 06:17:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <53crp2$857@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <539qgl$bpf@Vir.com> <53buu4$b7q@juliana.sprynet.com>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:08:18 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>>   Lets just consider basical facts: if you put together 500 persons in a
>> 200 meter square room, you may expect a fantastic temperature increase,
>> such a number of people in a small room produce a lot of heat. Miloslav
>> Bilik have already done the calculus a while ago, it was about an increase
>> of 5 degrees each 20 seconds untill heat lost from the roof become too
>> much important. All those people during 20-30 minutes perspire a lot. A a
>> temperature of 35 or 40 celcius (more than 100 faranheit) especially when
>> they see people dying, they try to escape, their heart beat at an incredible
>> rate. Have you ever perspire in a sauna? 

>It's kind from your part, but my opinion was exactly in the opposite
>way. I agree obviously that a huge heating was to expect from the
>victims (in 525m^3 for 500 victims). I made this estimation to
>estimate the speedness of dissipating of Zyklon. But:

>1/ the walls and corpses were always washed after a gassing, then
>dissolved HCN was brought off the room;

	Buzzer!!!!!  There is only one eyewitness testimony to washing and the rest
of his testimony is either improbable or impossible.  Please stop creating
holohugger myth as you go along.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:38 PDT 1996
Article: 72568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust denial
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 06:53:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <53ctre$lc0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <53cd96$q9b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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On 8 Oct 1996 02:11:50 GMT, persian1@ix.netcom.com(Brooks W Angela) wrote:


>    I'd like to share a story with this group.  After reading so many
>delusioned souls who cannot accept the truth about 1033-1945, I feel
>compelled to try and enlighten them.  The story is about a man we will
>call "Jack".  Jack died in 1990, after living his entire life as a
>devout Methodist.  Jack was middle class and never enjoyed the good
>life.  Jack had been adopted in 1936 and late in life decided to
>investigate his family roots.  He knew that his mother and father had
>emigrated from England, but his mother had died on the ship and that
>was why he was given up.   Upon research, he found that the ship had
>noted only one death, that of a Polish woman - a Jew.  Through more
>genealogical work he discovered that his family was originally Prussian
>and Jewish.  His family, like many upper class Polish families, was
>integrated with both Jewish and Catholic members.  He interviewed some
>of the Catholic members of his family and found out that his parents
>had been fleeing for their lives, in fear of a Nazi takeover of East
>Prussia - namely Danzig.  I ask you, what would this man have to gain
>by lying about the facts?  He gained no money from Germany, never
>visited Israel and never even entered a synagogue.  There have been
>MANY documented cases of adult adoptees discovering their true roots
>both in Poland and abroad.  Wake up people!! Not everyone has something
>to gain by this "so-called" fabrication of the Holocaust.

>"Jack's" granddaughter


	His mother died on a ship on the high seas.  

	What is your point?  

	
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72571 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:03:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <53cueh$lc0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <53a1us$lio@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <53bsk7$56e@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 06:03:51 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># You even quoted the 80,000. To refresh your memory, it is
># again.  Notice where it says 80,000 gassed or BURNED TO DEATH
># in a single night.

>He didn't say that they were all killed in one night.
>That's one lie you posted. The other lie you posted is that
>this testimony was given about Belsen, when in fact it was
>given about Auschwitz.

	Then post the real testimony dickless jew traitor.  Until you do, dickless
jew traitor, what I have posted stands.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:40 PDT 1996
Article: 72572 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange jewish attitudes about jews.
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:07:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53cul5$lc0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52ri0o$s0n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <534n34$suj@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <538co1$rps@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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On 6 Oct 1996 13:38:09 GMT, Nele Abels-Ludwig
 wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>[I wrote]
>>>Yawn! Lying again...

>>Gee, and it comes from an Israeli government source.  How 
>>strange.  

>Yawn lying again. Else he would point triumphantly at this
>"Israeli government source" and say "You see, here it is!".

>But he isn, because there is of course no "Israeli government
>source".

>What a cheap, cheap lier.

	Learn how to do a web search, dumbshit.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:03:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <53cufb$lc0@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <32551ab0.5690027@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <5331mh$sfh@juliana.sprynet.com> <32563618.78252689@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <534gfe$kju@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3259c5f2.2388534@news.inetport.com> <53bsol$56e@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:42:38 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <53bsol$56e@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> How would you know if I made up some answers?  But if you insist, try the
>> Salem witch trials.  Torture was not employed.

>Since it is to be expected of a self-confessed liar, it is expected that
>you will fabricate a response. You could try, for once, to present a
>verifiable answer instead of your usual rhetoric. By the way, your
>statement about Salem witch trials, while it has NOTHING to do with the
>Holocaust, is still wrong.

	Yes, dickless Jew handle, you are lying.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:42 PDT 1996
Article: 72580 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE MANY-FACED ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:17:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <53cv89$jn@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52khfn$p0h@faith.total.net> <538ltt$gao@faith.total.net>  <53b28h$gn7@news1.total.net>  <53c9oj$6kt@news1.total.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:29:25 GMT, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) quoted:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) who writes:
># You friend dr. Keren IS A first rate skeptical if not downwright
>># DENIER about the atrocities,--  rape and bloody murder by the 
>># Soviet hordes, -- when he asked me for EVIDENCE.
>----------------------
>DANIEL KEREN REPLIES: <<< If you people are going to play this game,
>play it fair.
>By "revisionist" standards, you have to supply very strong
>physical and documentary evidence for this claim. For instance,
>they demand to see 6 million corpses of Jews as a proof for the
>Holocaust. - If you don't have the evidence, then, by "revisionist"
>standards,  you're a liar and hatemonger. Do you have it? Yes or no?
>Or do you reject the "method" of "Holocaust revisionism"?
>You can't have it both ways.
>Danny Keren.>>>
>=====================
>ANSWER TO D. KEREN:
>I see where you are heading with all this: you finally  realized that
>you are painting yourself into a corner - even with your comrades help
>you can't get anywhere -  therefore you keep hammering on utter
>nonsense! 
>	You ask for PHYSICAL EVIDENCE only when it is safe and  you know it is
>not possible to give, but when we document something  you shove  it
>aside  and  you and your friends reject it as "second,- and third-hand
>info."  
>	Your "method of Holo-revisionism"  already supplied  the world with
>more than enough "EVIDENCE" .... thank you very much. However, there
>are always two sides to every coin and I feel yours  has the same
>picture on both sides. You are also sitting in a one way street which
>can be annoying  if you treat it to be a two way street. - 

>Here are  some novelties for your  Holocaust-revisionism:
>	"In 1937, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of World Zionism, said of
>Europe's six million Jews, 'They are dust in a cruel world. They must
>meet their fate. Only a branch shall survive. They must accept it.'"
>(Source: PERFIDY by Ben Hecht (p.149),  Julian Messner, Inc. New York,
>1961.]

	Thank you for another source of the term six million from 1937.  It is good
to note again that an impossible number was known before it occurred.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 10:48:29 PDT 1996
Article: 80461 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Israel provokes the end of peace
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 19:34:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <52ugbf$rd6@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <52f6q1$gpf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52g5vf$git@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <52h2k4$19dn@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <1996Oct1.234322@hujicc>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:72668 soc.culture.jewish:80461 soc.culture.lebanon:26188 soc.culture.israel:45912

On 1 Oct 96 23:43:22 GMT, backon@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

>In article <52h2k4$19dn@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, Nobody  writes:
>> aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross) wrote:
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>>                Israeli provokes the end of peace
>>>>                               by
>>>>                           Matt Giwer (c) 1996 <9/26>
>>>>     I find no way out of this conclusion.  The facts are simple.
>>>>Israel opened a tunnel that has been known for decades and has
>>>>known for decades that Palestinians would not accept it being
>>>>opened.
>>>
>>>Wrong.  The Arabs had already said YES to the tunnel under Teddy
>>>Kollek's mayorship, years ago, in 1988, in return for control of 
>>>King Solomon's Stables.  Look it up.
>> 
>> I'll accept that without checking.  And eight years passed without opening 
>> the tunnel.  Time changes circumstances.  Islamic leadership in Jerusalem 
>> should have been consulted and given a stake in the opening.  Fos example, 
>> part of the receipts could have been dedicated to the Wafq (or is it Waqf?).
>> 


>Sigh .....


>The WAKF (Muslim Religious Council) not only knew about the opening
>of the tunnel, they AGREED to it since in return, they received
>permission to have Muslim prayers in the area of Solomon's Stables
>(a Jewish area) adjacent to the Temple Mount.

	I hate to ask but does that group have a place at the negotiating table?  Does
it have any political authority?  

	To be specific, just what makes that group's agreement any different from you
agreeing to it?  

>All that happened was that a DOOR (one meter wide and 2 meters high)
>was opened from the tunnel (built 2200 years ago and which is located
>640 feet from the nearest Muslim holy place) to near the Via Dolorosa.
>The tunnel is barely a meter wide and only one person at at time can
>pass through. A door was opened for tourists to be able to enter through
>one side and exit through a new second side (instead of having to walk
>back single file to the point of origin).

	That was quite enough when the political control of Jerusalem is on the
negotiating table.  Of course, Netanyahu appears to be under the impression that
he has the unilateral power to take things off the table.  And of course he
would be the first to cry foul were Arafat to take something off the table such
as all jewish settlements in occupied territory.  

	Either both sides have the power or neither side has the power.  

>>>The Palestinians simply wanted an excuse, any excuse, to test their
>>>new Labor-armed army of 30,000 "policemen" (sic).  All reports
>>>indicate that the "riots" were tightly coordinated and that the only
>>>person capable of that was Arafat.  If Bibi had sneezed at midnight
>>>near the Temple Mount and a Jew had responded "G-d bless you!" too
>>>loudly, THAT would have been taken as sufficient provocation.
 
>> There is no doubt that tensions have been high.  The withdrawls promised have not 
>> all been carried out.  Why provide the spark.

>Yup, all the YAHUD should slit their throats. After all, that JEWS should
>have any rights ??? :-)

	Of course they have rights as well as obligations to live up to their
agreements.  

>> There are two possibilities:
>> 
>> 1.  Simple insensitivity.

>How about lying and cheating on the part of the WAKF who reneged on their
>deal ?  But of COURSE, it ALWAYS has to be that the dirty Jews (tm) are
>guilty :-)

	Until to provide some evidence this group you refer to has any standing to make
a deal on behalf of all Palestinians that has no meaning.  

>>>Note that the ratio of killed Israelis versus Arabs is higher than in
>>>any of the wars.  This Palestinian success will be exploited for
>>>acquiring greater support and materiel from Syria, Iran, Libya, etc.
>>>50 martyrs, to them, will be a huge public relations coup and will
>>>solidly put Arafat back in the graces of those who said he was
>>>kowtowing to Israel.
>> 
>> So why was the spark ignited?

>Tell me, Arafat needs an excuse ????

	He has kept the peace in areas he controls until this provocation was given.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
http://www.codoh.com/
http://www.webcom.com/~zundel



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 17:17:20 PDT 1996
Article: 72733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:35:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53e6vk$egl@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <324FC740.794B@itsa.ucsf.edu> <52vhat$brf@juliana.sprynet.com> <325d7e83.4204398@news.inetport.com> <53buu9$di7@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3259e1b6.14390305@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:11:49 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>>Well, then it is up to prove to us that these non-existent people existed and were gassed.

>>>Train passenger records and ticket sales. Try reading some of the
>>>transport records.

>>	All of those people are accounted for.  What are you referring to?  

>The records of the railways show that 1.5 million people were
>transferred to Auschwitz. Records of transfers to other camps, to
>subcamps, releases, deaths from disease, and a few escapes account for
>400,000 of those people.

>Please direct me to a source that accounts for the other 1.1 million.

	I guess you are going to first have to direct me to the records of these
1.5 million.  I asked after such records earlier this year and I was
informed there were no such records.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 17:29:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72735 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:42:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <53ep0j$aqb@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <53d106$d7q@juliana.sprynet.com> 
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:38:06 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:

>## Our desperate Nazi-apologists claim that they are the only ones
>## who know what happened in the camps, although 
>##  
>## A) They were not in them during the war.

># Note:  Danny Keren claims to be an authority on what happened 
># inside and outside of the camps, yet he was never in them.

>No, Nazi-boy. Unlike you, I don't claim to know better than
>each and every one who was in them.

	So you believe all the impossible and contradictory things they report?  Of
course you do.  And anyone who does not believe the impossible or know
conflicts means all but one is lying, gets treated to a little name calling
>from  someone so fixated on the subject that he has been spamming the same
selective quotes for at least four years.  	

>##  B) There is not one single witness who was in them during the
>##     war, who supports the Nazi-apologetic version.

># Paul Rassinier was. 

>That's one. Good for you. However, I don't count Rassinier, as
>he was not in any of the camps in which the large-scale murder
>in gas chambers took place.

	Will you accept Nyszli?  That is a trick question of course but even YFE
insists he was there.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 18:37:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72740 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore: Denier (was Re: Hoess Memoirs)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 19:20:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <53e9jg$311@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 08:51:51 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>[snip]

>>Don't worry about the color....it was described by Artur
>>Breitweiser, Chief of Disinfestation at Auschwitz.  By the
>>way, he was declared Not Guilty at the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials.
>>Better start runing before the collapsing Holocaust story falls right
>>on your head.

>The collapsing Holocaust story?

>Thank you for finally clarifying that you are in fact a Holocaust
>denier.

	It is unclear how observing the collapse of the stories makes one a
"denier."  Which particular story is one considered to be denying?  The 4.5
million Auschwitz story for example?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 19:06:58 PDT 1996
Article: 72746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:08:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <53eqgg$pok@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534bg1$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <534o45$em1@news.enter.net> <53abh7$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53bq51$ehl@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53cig1$c6q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 23:34:32 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <53cig1$c6q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> > Matt, are you going to sue Nizkor for copyright violation?
>> 
>> Not at the moment.  For now I will simply continue to object and point it
>> out to those who I find carrying a link to Nizkor.  And let them know just
>> what kind of organization they are supporting with the link.  

>Your hesitation in suing, when you (erroneously) claim to suffer an
>infringement of copyright is, arguably, tantamount to an implicit consent,
>granting the right to Nizkor to maintain the very articles which you
>allegedly (and wrongly) claim to be a violation of your copyright. But
>then, that is really moot, since no violation of copyright exists, except
>perhaps within your feeble mind. 

	Another legal genius speaks.  I have objected and been refused.  They three
of them remain in violation.  After I get the disclosure from the other
suit being filed against them it will be easier to determine the most
advantageous course of action.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 19:07:00 PDT 1996
Article: 72747 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:14:49 GMT
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On 8 Oct 1996 09:20:51 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>>  >  : What is the relevance of his birth certificate?
>  
>>  Let's first prove he existed before we quote from his book.  This "witness"
>>  NEVER testified in front of an allied court.  No historian from the west
>>  ever met him or conducted an interview with him.

>	You are incorrect.  Nysli was known to other physicians at Auschwitz.  
>Further he gave a deposition in 1945.

	Ah, yes, the man of the mauve ZB.  Would you buy a used holocaust from a
man like that, dickless?  
  
>>  >  Perhaps you should produce yours, so we know you exist and are not just a
>>  >  denier bot.
>  
>>  I haven't made criminal accusations against people.


>	You most certainly have.  As one example you have, falsely, accused  
>the investigators of the Malmedy massacre of phsyically torturing German soldiers to 
>extract confessions.

	You mean you are still holding to your position that they all had their
attorneys present during all questioning?  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 20:22:00 PDT 1996
Article: 72751 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:36:30 GMT
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On 8 Oct 1996 09:20:51 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>>  >  : What is the relevance of his birth certificate?
>  
>>  Let's first prove he existed before we quote from his book.  This "witness"
>>  NEVER testified in front of an allied court.  No historian from the west
>>  ever met him or conducted an interview with him.

>	You are incorrect.  Nysli was known to other physicians at Auschwitz.  
>Further he gave a deposition in 1945.

	Mauving right along, would you care to demonstrate that others knew him?
Would you provide his signature under the oath he took in swearing that ZB
is mauve?  

	And do you realize the Chuckle Fairy claims to have a book that the good
doctor wrote in 1960 which is the source of all these claims that he in
fact gave a deposition?  

	This book is also the source of the ONLY claim that "red cross vans" were
used to transport people from "selection" to the gas chambers.  

	This is also the source of the claim that the one room in the LK was filled
with 3000 naked men, women and children -- the first co-ed gassing report.


	This is also the man who claims the single room in the LK was at least 90
feet long, something only our resident math whiz believes.  

	Do you never find it interesting that no two people ever describe the same
thing if they go into any detail at all?  

	One survivor, one holocaust.  To each his own.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Red Cross inspections of Auschwitz (was Re: Anne Frank)
From: Chuck Ferree 
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:34:52 +0000

Chuck Ferree wrote:

I've checked all my books on Auschwitz, and did find references to 
"Red Cross" vans in a book written by a Hungarian Jewish doctor who 
worked for Mengele and survived. The book was first published in 1960, 
translated into English and copyrighted in 1993. I'll select only 
items which may have a bearing on the Red Cross. 
The title is: AUSCHWITZ A Doctor's Eyewitness Account, by Dr. Miklos 
Nyiszli

Dr. Mengele, the medical "selector" made a sign. They lined up again 
in two groups. The left-hand column included the aged, the crippled, 
the feeble and women with children under fourteen. The right-hand 
column consisted entirely of able-bodied men and women: those able to 
work. In this later group I noticed my wife and fourteen year old 
daughter. We no longer had any way of speaking to each other; all we 
could do was make signs. Those too sick to walk, the aged and insane, 
were loaded into Red Cross vans. (The Dr. worked for Mengele doing 
disections and other medical work. This is after a gas chamber is 
filled with 3,000 naked men, women and children.) ...The doors swung 
shut and from without the lights were switched off. At that very 
instant the sound of a car was heard: a delux model, furnished by the 
International Red Cross. An SS officer and a SDG Deputy Health Officer 
stepped from the car. The Deputy Health Officer held four green 
sheet-iron canisters. He advanced across the grass, where every thirty 
yards short concrete pipes jutted up from the ground. Having donned 
his gas mask, he lifted the lid of the pipe, which was also made of 
concrete. He opened one of the cans and poured the contents--a mauve 
granulated material--into the opening. (The Dr. writes that within 
five minutes everyone was dead). ...For every convoy it was the same 
story. Red Cross cars brough the gas from the outside. There was never 
a stock of it in the crematorium. The precaution was scandalous, but 
still more scandalous was the fact that the gas was brought in a car 
bearing the insignia of the International Red Cross. (this book 
contains a great deal of information about what the doctor did while 
in the camp. No mention of official inspections by the International 
Red Cross. 




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 21:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72752 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A (very) rare display of candour from Matt
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 21:30:49 GMT
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On 8 Oct 1996 17:30:11 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	I am saying nothing new. Only now I have so many impossible eyewitness
>>tesimonies to deal with.   And all courtesy of the holohuggers.  

>	Derek

	Is this a contribution?

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct  8 22:50:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72769 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: God's Chosen? [from houston.general]
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:04:49 GMT
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On 8 Oct 1996 09:37:47 -0700, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:


>In other words, the neo-Nazi organization I work with, the National
>Alliance, loses every argument in every open forum, 

	You do? 

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 00:09:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72773 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:29:50 GMT
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On 7 Oct 1996 12:29:10 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>> 
>> # 33 years before he testified as an eye witness who saw people
>> # being gassed. But Muench didn't even bothered himself to build
>> # a coherent story by picking up officials informations before to
>> # testify. He placed the crematoria and the gas chamber building
>> # one or 1 1/2 kilometer on the sout west of Birkenau camouflaged
>> # in a small woods. It can't be even a misunderstanding with the
>> # 1942 farmhouse:
>> 
>> He's probably referring to Krema IV or V, which were surrounded
>> by trees. Moreover, one of the "bunkers" was used again during
>> the summer of 1944.
>> 

> page 315:

> Q- Would you describe briefly where this extermination was carried
>  out, particularly the locality?

> A-The extermination plant was located at Birkenau. The crematoria and
>   gas chambers were located one to one and a half kilometer South
>   west of the Birkenau, camouflaged in a small woods.

> Q-What purpose did the crematoria serve?


> You have it folk. He's supposed to talk about 'krema 4 and 5' ??
> 1,5 km Sout-West of Birkenau???? and he confused a small wood with
> a couple of trees???
> One of the farmhouse 'equiped with crematorias'??? 1,0-1,5 km South
> West of Birkenau???

	It often amazes me how far this clown will go in supporting what are so
obviously losing positions.  He has to work to come up with this stuff; no
one can be born that dumb.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 00:09:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72776 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 100 to 0, The Jewish Preference for Odds
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 01:12:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:33:37 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	A pathetic situation. If I, Tom Moran, was ethnocentrically
>fixated on any heritage in my history, I would be ashamed if any
>members of this heritage were engaged in what the Jews get into.

	Particularly if if involved a "gas me, don't shoot me" attitude.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 00:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72781 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: We Three-Bergen Belsen, Brian Harmon, and Me
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:44:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Oct 1996 07:55:10 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  It's true: most of the victims in Belsen camp died from 
>>  starvation and from typhus. Since no one cared enough to 
>>  feed them, or to give them water, or to make any effort 
>>  whatsoever to save them, they died.
>>  
>>  This is murder just as shooting or gassing someone is murder; 
>>  it only takes more time and is more painful.
>>  
>>  
>>  -Danny Keren.
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>After the British took over the camp they were faced
>with the same problems as Kramer, but have no fear-
>the British are here---and funny thing, in spite of food,
>water, and medicine and quality care 28,000 more died.

	And the typhus was so bad the brits burned 60 barracks in an attempt to
control it.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:06:56 PDT 1996
Article: 72795 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 06:29:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Oct 1996 22:25:43 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  the criminal  mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) liers again:
>  
>>  	I guess you are going to first have to direct me to the records of these
>>  1.5 million.  I asked after such records earlier this year and I was
>>  informed there were no such records.  

>	The criminal Giwer is lying again.  He was told where the records could 
>be found.  He was even told that enlargements of some of them are on display at 
>the Houston Holocaust Museum.  The criminal was told that the records are not 
>complete.  He now chooses to lie about what he was told.

	A dickless jew manufactures more evidence.  You should get a job at the
White House.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:06:57 PDT 1996
Article: 72797 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Mike Curtis
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 01:03:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Oct 1996 13:16:11 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>>  
>>  Transports do not equal murder.  Many German Jews were deported
>>  to Riga.

>	Where they were murdered.

	I presume you have autopsey reports for these, too?  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:06:58 PDT 1996
Article: 72803 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:22:33 GMT
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:04:42 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## He didn't say that they were all killed in one night.
>## That's one lie you posted. The other lie you posted is that
>## this testimony was given about Belsen, when in fact it was
>## given about Auschwitz.

># Then post the real testimony

>It's in "The Belsen Trial", testimony of Dr. Bendel. It's
>easy to find. I'll type some in later.

	In the mean time, the claim for the number gassed OR burned to death stands
regardless of which camp was supposed to be involved and that claim is
idiotic, stupid and a clear and deliberate lie.  It is only brain dead
holohuggers who defend such claims.  

># dickless jew traitor.

>Grow up, for God's sake. You're 51-years-old. At least that's
>what you said.

	Quite old enough to recognize a traitor when I see one.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:06:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72804 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A (very) rare display of candour from Matt
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:51:21 GMT
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:05:12 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer writes:

># Read the information holohuggers fear
># http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

>Web site of Hitler admirer, who wrote (on GEnie) that 
>"Hitler was a great man", and "the best thing that could 
>have happened to Germany"

	And just what sticks in your craw about there?  There are a lot of people
who admire otherwise dispicable creatures.  For example many terrorists are
so greatly admired by so many people that they are elected to high office.
Chaim Weitzman and Menachem Begin are examples.  Other conscienceless
terrorists have held high appointed office such a Shamir.  

># http://www.webcom.com/~zundel

>Web site of an insane person, who believes that the Nazi
>leadership fled the Reich using "secret UFO's", and are
>now hiding in the inner earth, which they entered via a
>"hole in the South-Pole". He even claims to have met some
>of the scientists who built the "UFO's"...

	At the time he was no different that the US military.  But you know that.  

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/z/zundel.ernst/flying-saucers

>Contains both text and images from Zundel's publications
>about these "UFO's".

>Quoted from one of these publications (see saucers.text):

	Did Nizkor get permission to use his material?  One more reckless disregard
of the law by Nizkor. 

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:06:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:08:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <53fml9$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <325a65d9.9981152@news.demon.co.uk> 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:36:12 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:

># First, from the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food, who
># transferred me to their Animal Health Disease Control Department.

>Thanks for posting this information. Can you post their address, so
>I can write them?

># The deaths were as follows:
>#
># Cattle   214,900
># Sheep   108,835
># Pigs    118526
># Goats          57
>#
># All the animals were slaughtered and incinerated on the
># farms where they were found and the partially burned remains
># were buried in enormous pits - again, at the same farms.

>How much time did it take to incinerate the dead animals?

>Also, can you make any comment on:

>1) The Jahrling letter to Kammler, and other sources, on the
>   cremation power of the Auschwitz-Birkenau furnaces?

>2) How many corpses do you suggest could be cremated in these
>   furnaces? They had 52 large cremation furnaces. Assuming,
>   say, that each could burn 15 corpses a day - and this is
>   most obviously a serious underestimate - we have, per year,
>   15*52*360 = 280,800 corpses.

	Why would anyone assume a number than can not be duplicated today?  

>   Can you offer any rational explanation as to why a "work
>   camp", built to hold a few tens-of-thousands of inmates,
>   needed this astounding cremation power?

	Can you explain what your absurd assumption has to do with the real
capacity? 

	Can you explain why you have a toilet that has the capacity to handle at
least fifty people?  A stove that can feed at least 100 people a day?  A
garbage disposal that can process a half ton of waste a day?  

	You must be violating the housing laws on number of occupants with
equipment of that capacity.   

>3) Re disposing of corpses by burning them on pyres: this was
>   done in Dresden, after the mass murder of German civilians
>   in that city by British bombers. I have posted a photo, which
>   shows a huge pyre of corpses being burned. Are you suggesting
>   this worked only in Dresden, and that it would not have worked
>   for burning victims in the death camps and in the sites of the
>   "Einsatzgruppen" massacres?

	The problem of course is that there are no signs of such mass burnings on
any of the aerial photos of any of the places where it was supposed to have
happened.  That means, not the slightest sign in any manner or form.
Stories of self proclaimed witnesses are one thing, the lack of
corroborating physical evidence is something else entirely.

	But the, the little jew traitor, knows that.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:00 PDT 1996
Article: 72829 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THE HOLOCAUST?
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 10:14:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <53fu02$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <325A130C.7A14@avana.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:38:36 -0400, Chris DeNeve 
wrote:

>Why should I believe the holocaust really happened.  I have seen no 
>conclusive evidence.  Just some old guy came to my school and said
>that the fact he had numbers tatooed on his hand was proof.

	According to one of the standard staries, his tatttoo is evidence that
there was no gassing.  His very existance, if he claims he is jewish, means
the intent to exterminate Jews was either not there or missed the obvious.


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:01 PDT 1996
Article: 72834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Ingorance Expands
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 10:22:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53fugk$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <325aac2f.436908833@news.zilker.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 19:53:41 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:


>I wrote:

>>URL? BTW, Nizkor is a group of volunteers and amateur historians. I
>>think you need to focus on what you really have to deal with here and
>>that isn't Nizkor, but rather with the works of degreed historians and
>>other qualified researchers on the holocaust.

>And Giwer responded.

>	"And which of the two are you referring to?  "

>Researchers (plural) or historians (plural) makes up a heck of a lot
>more people than two. People of average intelligence can read the
>English language even if they can't deal honestly with the historical
>events. I guess you are not one of those, but we know that already.

	To which two historians are you referring?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:02 PDT 1996
Article: 72838 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: We Three-Bergen Belsen, Brian Harmon, and Me
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:13:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <53fmum$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References:  <53d1cu$d7q@juliana.sprynet.com> 
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:23:28 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com writes:

># After the British took over the camp they were faced
># with the same problems as Kramer, but have no fear-
># the British are here---and funny thing, in spite of food,
># water, and medicine and quality care 28,000 more died.

>They died because they were already in a hopeless state,
>after being treated by your great hero, Joseph Kramer. Had 
>the Brits arrived a few days later, probably no inmate would
>have survived.

	If their state was "hopelss" why did the Brits bother burning 60 barracks
to control the epidemic?  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:03 PDT 1996
Article: 72845 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:59:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <53epur$kd1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <539q58$bpf@Vir.com> <325A4DC8.666C@ccnis.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 08:49:12 -0400, "Annie Alpert, OFB"
 wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
>> 
>This so-called FAQ is a total mess!  You start out with a litany of
>excuses for why you couldn't do enough research (working hard and all),
>then you expect us to accept your "reliable sources" and non-cited
>commentary as research?  Give us all a very large break, J-F!  

>>   The present FAQ was written by me in 1996 but Alexander Baron brought a
>> couple of suggestions and corrections and revised the english syntax. It
>> is modified sometimes.
>> 
>>                       CREMATORIA
>> 
>>    The first section of this FAQ deals with crematoria in Birkenau. The
>> Revisionist claim is usually supported by the affirmations of Ivan Legace,
>> a crematory operator from Calgary who has been subjected to smear attacks
>> from the Holocaust lobby in alt.revisionism. I hadn't really the time to
>> involve myself on this topic, I'm working 40 hours a week, and I've no
>> connection with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which can raise billions of
>> dollars for the construction of Holocaust Museums. However, I never heard
>> about any crematory operator who was produced in a court case by the Ho-
>> locaust lobby to support the claim that 4 bodies can be reduced to ashes
>> in 30 or 45 minutes in a crematory oven. 

>Court case?  Which court cases have had SOnderkommando as witnesses and
>what did THEY say?

	They said things that were then and still are impossible.  That it why they
are worthless as witnesses.  
 
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:04 PDT 1996
Article: 72846 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Arabs
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 10:18:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <53fu7n$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <325A7040.16F0@pop.erols.com> 
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:56:39 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Walt Hingerty  writes:

># I dont have an agenda. But I am curious about something.
># What is the legal status of Palestinians who are born
># within the borders of Israel.
>#
># Are they considered Israeli citizens?

>Yes; as a matter of fact, about 20 percent of Israel's
>citizens are not Jews, but Moslems, Christians, and Druze
>(there are some other much smaller minorities, such as
>Karaites, Samaritans, and Bahaisy).

	They used to be 80%.  What happened?  Are they really all in refugee camps?


># Are they allowed to vote

>Of course. There are also non-Jews in the Israeli Parliament
>("Knesset"). I don't know the number, though. If you post to
>talk.politics.mideast and/or soc.culture.israel, someone will
>probably tell you how many.

># or serve in the military?

>Most don't serve in the army, although many Druze and Bedouins do.

	They are not permitted to so as you know.  

># I have heard that only persons of the Hebrew faith have full civil
># rights in Israel. Is this so?

>No.

	Unfortunately, correct in regard to military service and being hired by the
Mossad.  







=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:05 PDT 1996
Article: 72847 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Arabs
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 10:19:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <53fu9o$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <325A7040.16F0@pop.erols.com> <53ep3j$6qd@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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On 8 Oct 1996 16:45:55 -0700, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
wrote:

>In article <325A7040.16F0@pop.erols.com>,
>Walt Hingerty   wrote:

>>I dont have an agenda. But I am curious about something. What is the
>>legal status of Palestinians who are born within the borders of Israel.
>>Are they considered Israeli citizens? Are they allowed to vote or serve
>>in the military? What is the status of Arabic Christians or Europaen
>>Christians who are also born and live in Israel? I have heard that only
>>persons of the Hebrew faith have full civil rights in Israel. Is this
>>so? Thanks in advance. walt

>Mr. Hingerty,

>This discussion is really not relevent to alt.revisionism.  This
>newsgroup is about the denial of the Holocaust.  To answer your question,
>however, Israeli Arabs have the right to vote; there are Arab parties in
>the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament).  Do they have full civil rights?
>That may be a harder question.  Do African-Americans have full civil
>rights in the USA?  According to the law they do, but reality is a
>different story.

	You forget yourself. 

	I determine what is appropriate to a.r.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:06 PDT 1996
Article: 72855 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pollard of course
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:26:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53eri0$77v@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <53c6mu$4d5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 08:42:59 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka
Perrrfect) wrote:

>In article <53c6mu$4d5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[long, off-topic article snipped]
> 
>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>Just because you're a Jew-hater and Pollard is a Jew, does not mean that
>this discussion belongs in alt.revisionism.
> 
>It doesn't.
> 
>Please find some other place to deposit your hatred of Israel.

		The topic cop is back.  Pollard was a spy who was bought by our friends the
Israelies.  Our Israeli friends resold some of  the information to our
other friends the Soviets.  Some of OUR people had fatal accidents because
of what he sold.  

	Israel fits this conference very well.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 08:58:33 PDT 1996
Article: 72877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 01:26:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <53ev3f$cab@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:18:16 GMT, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) wrote:

>A FREE DONATION FOR THE ENRICHMENT 
>OF THE ARCHIVES OF THE NIZKOR PROJECT
>	
>	According to the  politically correct Zionist organizations,  "the
>symbolical number of 6 million Jews  perished in WW II is a proven
>historical fact" and nobody should even dare to have any doubts or
>questions about it, ... indeed  Dr. Chaim Weizmann (president of
>Israel in 1948)  president of the World Zionist Organization  on
>November 25th, 1936 declared the "6 million" number to be symbolic of
>the Jewish destiny. [Source: Chaim Weizmann: Reden und Aufsatze
>1901-1936. jud. Bucherverlag Erwin Lowe, Berlin 1937)

	Another discovery of the magic six million number before it became famous.

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 13:25:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72901 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:30:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53fnu2$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <539qgl$bpf@Vir.com> <325ec6b9.17794107@199.0.216.204> <53e45t$jpe@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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On 8 Oct 1996 10:48:45 -0700, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
wrote:

>In article <325ec6b9.17794107@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:

>>
>>	Background levels taken properly, would be to take samples from a
>>number of places and then compare the readings from the intended
>>sample to the average of these other readings.

>That's essentially what was done Mr. Moran, although taking an average
>among several different samples rather than an average of the three
>measurements of an individual sample would be incorrect.

	"Once or never" fumigated means they can all be in the NEVER category and
thus are meaningless as a baseline for deterioration over time.  But you
know that.  But you also know that you will pervert the scientific method
to support your precious and nonexistant gas chambers.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 13:25:40 PDT 1996
Article: 72906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:34:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <53fo5p$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <539qgl$bpf@Vir.com> <53buu4$b7q@juliana.sprynet.com> <53crp2$857@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53e7vs$704@juliana.sprynet.com>
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On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 03:55:08 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:08:18 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
>>Bilik) wrote:

>>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>>>>   Lets just consider basical facts: if you put together 500 persons in a
>>>> 200 meter square room, you may expect a fantastic temperature increase,
>>>> such a number of people in a small room produce a lot of heat. Miloslav
>>>> Bilik have already done the calculus a while ago, it was about an increase
>>>> of 5 degrees each 20 seconds untill heat lost from the roof become too
>>>> much important. All those people during 20-30 minutes perspire a lot. A a
>>>> temperature of 35 or 40 celcius (more than 100 faranheit) especially when
>>>> they see people dying, they try to escape, their heart beat at an incredible
>>>> rate. Have you ever perspire in a sauna? 

>>>It's kind from your part, but my opinion was exactly in the opposite
>>>way. I agree obviously that a huge heating was to expect from the
>>>victims (in 525m^3 for 500 victims). I made this estimation to
>>>estimate the speedness of dissipating of Zyklon. But:

>>>1/ the walls and corpses were always washed after a gassing, then
>>>dissolved HCN was brought off the room;

>>	Buzzer!!!!!  There is only one eyewitness testimony to washing and the rest
>>of his testimony is either improbable or impossible.  Please stop creating
>>holohugger myth as you go along.  

>Sorry. You can get many testimonies saying where the water was fought
>and used for washing. From the "both" sides witnesses (US and URSS)
>and corroborating.

>Bzzzzz.....

	Sorry about your unfortunate attempt at creating a lie but early this year
I was pointing out the need to hose down the entire chamber as well as the
corpses for bodily function reasons (slipping on shit) and no one posted
any claim of any hosing or washing.  Nor was I referred to any.  Nor has
any such testimony been found on any of the holohuggers sites.  

	Other than that, nice try, but you rose to the bait admirably.  	


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 13:25:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72914 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SciFi Channel Sightings
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:26:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 10
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	On 11 October, don't miss it.  Holocaust witnesses are so scarce they have
to remember it by remembering their previous lifes.  He remembers being a
Dutch Jew murdered by the Nazis.  
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct  9 20:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 72945 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: HOLO-HOAX DESTROYED FROM THE AIR!!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:28:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
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On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:31:47 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Well, as expected the "major" avoided answering any questions which 
>would help his credibility. Still a shadowy figure out there some 
>place looking for garbage, and by golly this turkey seems to find some 
>good garbage.


>Ursus Major wrote:
>> 

>> 
>> *Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> *
>> *Gotta hand it to the artists. Must work for Disneyland. I've tromped
>> *all over this place twice. July 1945, September 1994, a week each
>> *time. The artist has it pretty close, but the entire layout is more
>> *fiction than fact. It's a good piece of work, but after all, someone
>> *decided to interpret what they percieved from a very poor set of
>> *aerials and practically every site is mis-named.
>> *
>> *Where, I ask Giwer, is the friggin' 18 hole golf course, which the
>> *Russians and Americans played several times under PGA rules? ( I, a
>> *poor golfer then and still am, shot an 86)

>Don't accept this satire. There was no golf course at Auschwitz. There 
>was a swimming pool, 

	And a sauna.  

which was used by the commandant and his ranking 
>friends. There were no heated barracks for inmates, 

	Then what are those chimneys on their roofs for?  

their barracks 
>were un-insolated, 

	You mean the sun didn't shine on them?  

and at the top of each and every barrack, both 
>men's and women's, it was open. In other words, the top of each 
>barrack had about a four foot open space, open for the miserable 
>winter cold, rain and snow. No way to keep warm. 

	Funny that those are not on the pictures of the barracks.  

>> *Matt Giwer wrote:
>> *>
>> *> On 8 Oct 1996 15:15:48 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>> *> wrote:
>> *>
>> *> >Ursus Major
>> *
>> *hey ursus corporal, tell me who you really are, your credentials, and
>> *maybe I'll recruit some real marines to give you a hand. :-)
>> *chuckles

>Guess you want to keep hiding..huh? Well that says a lot about people. 
>Most former marines are proud of their service to their country, and I 
>don't know of a single one out of the many former WW-II Marine 
>buddies, who would be chicken-shit and prefer to hide. But here we got 
>one, who probably was 4-F or unfit for military service, or sectioned 
>eight out, or something which is hidded in his past and he wants to 
>keep it that way. Must be a coward too. 

	Now you were a Marine too?  What was their left for Eisenhower to do in
that war?  

>> * (Ursus@sure.net) wrote:
>>clips

>> No, they're arial photographs, my SENILE observant.

>Bullshit, there are no aerial photos to look at, only good drawings, 
>which mis-label 99% of the camp. Any artist could do that, pal. It's 
>good work, but phoney.

	Considered the US pictures were first published by the CIA you are making
quite an allegation.  By any chance do you see black helicopters?  

	Given that the US pictures are some of the same ones carried by Nizkor, you
really should explain to them how they have been taken in by drawings.  

	Perhaps the easiest solution is for you to get an eye examination.  
 
>> Played golf in '45 (say, age 25) with Uncle Joe's troops?

>Hey, man, I had my 21st birthday June 30th. 1945...that would make me 
>twenty-one years old. By April 1945, I had 67 combat missions under my 
>belt, mostly in P-47 Thunderbolts. I was one day older, than the 
>youngest man in my squadron. We were men then, pal. Where were you 
>when you celebrated your 21st birthday? Common don't be shy. Tell us.
>>        

> That means our SENILE friend is pushing 80 or lying--or both!
>> Did a walk-around (or pushed around in a wheel-chair?) 50 years later
>> ... and mind's as sharp as a tack!

>You can't even do math as good as your lying pal, Giwer. I work out 
>every day. 

	But most people do not consider that passing stool should be a workout.  

>Fit as a fiddle, can still get into my pinks. 

	A TV also.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 01:08:06 PDT 1996
Article: 72959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,mtl.general,qc.general
Subject: Re: QUEBEC LEADER OPPOSES JEWS
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 23:56:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:72959 qc.general:10481

On Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:45:41 -0600, acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:

>Yes, Villeneuve was a former leader of the Quebec FLQ.

>Yes, he has called for a sensible moratorium on immigration into Quebec.
>Many sensible residents outside Quebec, also wish for immigration into 
>Canada to be curtailed.

>After all, just last week, both the federal immigration ministry, and the 
>Quebec immigration department were BOTH complaining about the illegal 
>immigrants from ISRAEL, being ex-Russian JEWS, with their false refugee 
>claims!!!In 1995 alone, Quebec had 1,700 illegal JEWS claiming refugee 
>status, even though Israel states that they are NOT refugees.

>Of course, Villeneuve and all sensible residents of Quebec do not need 
>more criminals, which is what false refugee claimants are.

	Just the other day I caught and ITN report that a British court has ordered
people claiming that status in England be put on the dole.  It did not name
country of origin.

	However, remember that Israel worked quite hard to get other countries to
agree NOT to permit Russian Jew immigration (Germany and the US are two
countries that agreed) so that they would have no significant choice of
countries other than Israel.  

	And then they claim population pressures to justify West Bank settlements
and put them in harm's way.  

	So it is no surprise that Israel would deny Russian Jews can possibly be
refugees.  They are very useful to Israel.  And being put on the
Palestinian front is something to be a refugee from.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:46 PDT 1996
Article: 72972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Made from 100% pure Jewess hair
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:11:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <53fja7$o4r@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:39:10 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>If you believe Giwer has seen Yad-Vashem as he says, I'll sell you a 
>damned good government bridge, Wholesale. 

>The hair was at Auschwitz in 1945, and I saw it again in 1994.

>Giwer claims the Nazis shipped all the human hair from Poland to 
>Germany to be destroyed. ROTFLMAO

>What a dipstick this Gwier is. Cheap wine does that to a fella.

>Chuck


>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:14:22 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> >: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >:
>> >: >A small rug, or doormat, made of human hair, was found and
>> >: >is now in Yad-Vashem. But more than that: huge amounts of
>> >: >human hair were found in Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they are
>> >: >still there.
>> >:
>> >: A nice collection of lies, oh dickless one.  There are no such things

>Prove it, you lying has been, unfit for military service in three 
>wars. What the hell do you know? Nada!!!
>Chuckles

	I do hope you realize that all of your ranting and your claims about what
you did in the war make it very difficult of anyone other than your own
grandchildren to believe you did anything but get get rich in a factory jub
during the war.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:47 PDT 1996
Article: 72973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DON'T FORGET MCVEY'S A LIAR
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:14:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Oct 1996 19:25:40 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:54:04 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>No. I believe nothing Nazi has any value whatsoever. And I don't
>>>like Nazi scum, whether they are German, American, or British. 
>>	I have good news for you.  They were disbanded in 1945.  

>	The original Nazi party has disbanded. There are, however, groups who
>want to revive it. Certainly there are groups that want to whitewash it.
>(e.g. The IHR)

	It is unclear how pointing out a minor event in the time period lacks
credible physical evidence has anything to do with whitewashing the Nazi
Party.  It is impossible to whitewash avowed marxists as they condemn
themselves by their own words.  



=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:48 PDT 1996
Article: 72977 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 21:38:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <53ehn5$4qq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 8 Oct 1996 08:38:54 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>>  In message  -
>>  schwartz@infinet.com writes:
>>  :>
>>  :>In article <52njfk$o79@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote to
>>  :>Gord McFee:
>>  :>
>>  :>> By the way, someone told me that you are using a pseudonym-is this true?
>>  :>
>>  :>HAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>  :> 
>>  :>Pot.Kettle.Black, Mr. Blackmore/Belling/whatever.
>>  
>>  You know him too Sara.  :-)
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  --
>>  Gord McFee
>>  I'll write no line before its time
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>This is hilarious.  You can't answer my arguments so you
>yap about what my name is.....keep up the good work...
>a clear admission of impending defeat.....

	Have you ever found McFly to post anything substantive?  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:48 PDT 1996
Article: 72978 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A (very) rare display of candour from Matt
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:53:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:10:52 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Those interested in studying real photos from WW2, may
>look in the Nizkor web pages, among them

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/dachau/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/natzweiler/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/nordhausen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/ohrdruf/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/thekla/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/maidanek/images

	As I said, you would recognize them when you see them.  Nizkor is a fine
place to start for pictures that contradict the claims of the supposed
witnesses.  It is simply a matter of looking at the pictures to determine
that the witnesses were not witnesses.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:49 PDT 1996
Article: 72979 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:12:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53fmr9$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <534qql$1ml@Vir.com>  <53at2m$rhs@Vir.com> 
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On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:01:40 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

># You have it folk. He's supposed to talk about 'krema 4
># and 5' ?? 1,5 km Sout-West of Birkenau????

>Yes - relative to the SS HQ of Birkenau.

># and he confused a small wood with a couple of trees???

>"A couple of trees"? Look at photos, for God's sake.

	Correct.  Take a look.  There are a couple of trees.  No woods, no forest,
nothing.  

	And do not forget that 1.5 km away puts it between the 1 and the 2 km
radius rings of guard towers the witnesses reported but which complete
eluded all aerial photography.  

=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:50 PDT 1996
Article: 72980 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:26:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Oct 1996 19:22:53 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	Then post the real testimony dickless jew traitor.  Until you do,
>>dickless jew traitor, what I have posted stands.  

>	Why don't you post the testimony you claim is real? Oh, silly me, I
>forgot, it's all in your imagination!

>	Why are you so intent on calling other men dickless?

>	Derek

>Read the information the Giwer-troll fears:

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mcvay-ken/put-up-shut-up.html
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/


>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
	

	It is not clear what you think you are accomplishing with the spam.  Every
time you do it, I post something as long or longer that ridicules your
precious holocaust.  You do nothing but get attacks upon your position
posted.  

	As you know that happens it would appear that is your intention and why a
holohugger would have that intention is not clear.

On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote:

>Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016
>Last-modified: 1993/03/22

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>             (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org)

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

>                THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
>                             Shimon Kanz


>A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors  who arrived from
>Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for
>3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to
>Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor.
>Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution
> over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of
>the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the
>prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered
>their heads.

>In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of
>Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

	Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.  

>                        SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

>"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating
>and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender
>existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which
>I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory
>throughout my life."

	It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a
meaningful crossexamination.  

>The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow
>accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly
>exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the
>bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and
>humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during
>the work in the camp Postak.

	"Stone him.  Stone him."  

	"Jehovah!  Jehovah!"

	Stoned?  Who biblical.  But maybe he really just inhaled.  

>The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the
>"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

>Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered
>automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her
>delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures?
>From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

	She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her
treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses.  

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

	Devilish laughter.  Melodrama testified to in court.  The evil always laugh
as devilishly as they can.  Ming the Merciless did it too.  

	Is any adult to take this seriously?  Of course not.  Only holohuggers
believe this sort of crap.  

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

>Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons.
>They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. 
	
	And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of
these wagons, depending upon translation.  

And
>when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The
>devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing.

	Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the
engine.  Real true holohugger fantasy life here.  And they could see the
faces of pilots from inside closed wagons.  This woman certainly has to be
paid for this performance.  

>On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons
>and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to
>begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

	Ah, yes, dancing.  Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt.  Very efficient
these Nazis.  

>Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her
>words shiver and only an echoe  is heard of those awful days which
>had become from day to day more terrible.

	A true whacko so far.  

>They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed
>wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the
>slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow
>took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one,
>neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers
>how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

	So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they
could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?  This person
is truly psychotic.  

>Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers
>were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the
>Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did
>not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring
>taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger
>nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon
>you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist".

	Certainly fingers were just pulled off.  

	Tell me the truth.  This was written by Stephen King, right?  

>The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and
>shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it
>will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

	But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it.  

	But here it is not a secret and they do know about it.  
	
	It is also an interesting speech.  Maybe it translates to a chant.  

	You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same
testimony.  

>                     THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS

>The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened
>from hunger and thrust  pains and agony and they started
>screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp.

>The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker"
>as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what
> to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and
>gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland,
>Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did
>not understand the meaning of their shouts.

	They did not understand the shouts.  Then where did the translation of the
chant above come from?  This witness?  

>At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel:
>"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle
>of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them
>immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other
>clothes here."

	Right, bundles of clothes.  Every found a bundle of clothes.  No one has.  
	
>Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the
>year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three
>women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his
>finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for
>profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his
>assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a
>laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and
>Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium,
>but she managed to get them out of the line.

	In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what
happened after that point.  The gassing all her fantasy.  

>The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their
>belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few
>craftsmen were allowed to survive.

	But she has no way of knowing.  

>                 SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

>We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German
>officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the
>laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were
>distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in
>her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you
>can".

	They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was
expanded.  

	Note here that the judge leads the witness.  A typical war crimes tactic.  

>The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She
>feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a
>Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while
>writing every word going out of her mouth.

>The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what
>she has seen with her own eyes. 
	
	Who is it that does not want hearsay?  

But how can she not tell about the
>shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. 
	
	That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it.
What in the hell does the author think witness means?  

The heartbreaking
>shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning
>penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that
>they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

	But she was not raped.  Must have been real ugly.  

>Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday
>a transport arrived with thursty  people as it had been for several
>days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some
>to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was
>already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which
>served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the
>excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty  people of
>the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each
>other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was
>shot by the Germans.

	And all of this from what she did not witness.  Quite amazing  that this is
level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials.  Even more
interesting that crossexamination was not permitted.  

>                        HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

>The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor
>after the revolt are horrifying.

>They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last
>moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell
>about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven
>to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their
>own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the
>Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his
>arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and
>they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was
>supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place
>at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he
>ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks,
>called for the orchestra, gathered the  women and told them to sing and
>dance.

	Thank you, Steven Speilberg.  Jewrassic Pork lives.  

>This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered
>all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child.
	
	Eating sardines.  Are they not Kosher?  

>Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops.
>The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind  
>of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and
>guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and
>mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop  trees.
>Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and
>escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the
>heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same.

	Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news.  

>                      THE REBELLION COMMITTEE

>Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of
>the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To
>this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul
>Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided
>revenge.

	Excuse me.  It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize
this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them?  

>In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives.  How
>dangerous this was!  How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use
>in order to conceal this.  Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and
>courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the
>storehouses.  The participants of this operation were divided into
>groups.  The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group
>and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the
>guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt
>the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the
>guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the
>telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make
>passage ways.

	But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough.  

>              THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED

>The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death
>enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the
>prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well.
>Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened.
>Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood
>shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this
>day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the
>hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men
>and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves
>when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed
>now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into
>the trap looking for a hiding place.

	Sobibor gasse millions.  How can the world have missed this.  

>The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes
>and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews.
>Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans.
>Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called
>Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of
>some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew
>and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached
>the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living
>of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their
>intestines that they wished to die.

	They did not live off of them.  

>They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side
>to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission.
>It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good
>thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled
>to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall
>heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans
>flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you
>emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place."
>The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the
>question remained unanswered.

	Most likely they would have been shot for doing so.  That is the way the
holocaust works. 

=====

http://www.codoh.com/

 
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72986 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: HOLO-HOAX DESTROYED FROM THE AIR!!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:32:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
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References: <52t8jn$bs9@infinity.c2.net> <52vcuk$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <325a38e3.1075541@news.sure.net> <32581b88.88044@news.sure.net> <53dr74$sd9@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53eat3$bm1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325AD3E4.5DAF@rio.com> <325c8606.2710274@news.sure.net> <53gpo4$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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On 9 Oct 1996 18:09:08 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Ursus Major (Ursus@sure.net) wrote:

>: *> >Uh...Ursus?  I hate to disillusion you, but most of the illustrations
>: *> >the guy who created this site claims are most damning are...
>: *> 
>: *> >Well, they're drawings, Bear-boy.
>: 
>: No, they're arial photographs, my SENILE observant.

>Uh-huh.  Photographs in bright, primary colors.

>There ARE photographs on the site, but they essentially mean 
>nothing, although the author has appended little comments about
>how the people in the pictures don't look too upset, etc.  The
>illustrations showing the rooftop bar, the sauna, the olympic
>pool and so on are drawings.

	And what does it mean that Nizkor carries the same photos and that they
were originally released by the CIA?  

	Fact of life, boy.  Get used to it.  


=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72987 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:38:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53i5of$889@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <53d6dj$ilo@news.enter.net> <53g2fr$peu@juliana.sprynet.com>
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On 9 Oct 1996 11:32:11 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>  >   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  
>>  >  >  : What is the relevance of his birth certificate?
>>    
>>  >  Let's first prove he existed before we quote from his book.  This "witness"
>>  >  NEVER testified in front of an allied court.  No historian from the west
>>  >  ever met him or conducted an interview with him.
>>  
>>  	You are incorrect.  Nysli was known to other physicians at Auschwitz.  
>>  Further he gave a deposition in 1945.

>Gave a deposition to whom?  Where did he testify?
>BTW that is not the proof I asked for.  Similarly I 
>asked for the toxicological test results from the
>alleged gassing victims at Dachau and you refer
>me to someone's "testimony".

	A point not of interest to holohuggers is that these "depositions" never
name the people to whom they were given nor the oath.  What a strange form
of deposition.  

    
=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72988 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLO-HOAX DESTROYED FROM THE AIR!!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:37:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
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References: <52t8jn$bs9@infinity.c2.net> <52vcuk$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <325a38e3.1075541@news.sure.net> <32581b88.88044@news.sure.net> <325b773c.25193987@news>
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On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 10:25:25 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Oct 1996 21:20:40 GMT, Ursus@sure.net (Ursus Major) wrote:

>>Fire up your Netscape (optimized for that browser, but will work with
>>others) and RUN--do not Walk!--to the following site:
>>
>>	http://www.air-photo.com
>>
>>This is better than a can of Raid for dealing with Tarantulas!
>How about, Bloated, besotted, troll toads?? You any good there??

>>What is it? It's entirely photographic evidence, newly released by the
>>U.S. Government, of fly-overs of Auschwitz, all three portions: the
>>>Stammlager< (main camp), Auschwitz-Birkenau (the supposed site of The
>>Holocaust [TM]) and Auschwitz-Molowitz (the industrial center to make
>>gasoline from coal, as the Germans had no access to oil).

>Ah, I tell you bear boy, better you should have looked my closely, my
>understanding is that the industrial section of Auschwitz is known as
>Monowitz. Duh, bear boy down by one, looking for spiders and troll
>toads.

	It is amusing that you folks are claiming the pictures are drawings when
they are the same photos carried by Nizkor and first released by the CIA.  

	You folks certainly lacked coordination on this one.  




=====
Read the information holohuggers fear
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side



From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72990 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Lies Again
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:44:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 801
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On 9 Oct 1996 17:57:58 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>	In other words the criminal Giwer does not know what he's talking 
>>about.  There is no such provision in any oath and, if it did it would be in
>>flat contradiction to the Code of Professional Responsibility.

>	But Matt knows nothing of professionalism or, indeed, responsibility.
>;-)

>>	That's what you can expect from a criminal confronted with his
>>criminal activity.

>	Especially one as dogmatic, impetuous and petulant as Giwer.

>	Derek

>Read the information the Giwer-troll fears:


The Trial of the Executioner of 
Sobibor



The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski

THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
Shimon Kanz

      A jury of judges, prosecutors and defenders who arrived from Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for 3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the prosecution over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered their heads.

      In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.
SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

      "Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provoking and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory throughout my life."

It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination, although it is not clear >from which side the questions are coming.

      The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horror accompanied the route >from Krakow from where the Germans had openly exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during the work in the camp Postak.

"Stone him. Stone him."

"Jehovah! Jehovah!"

Stoned? How biblical. However this does stand as the only report of death by stoning to come from the witnesses. It is a nice touch.

      The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the "Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

      Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

As we find later she was in charge of something at the camp. Those in charge of something commonly misused their position for power. Although this person is not named as one of them, it was common and can be an answer to the question. That answer being, she was making a victim of herself to avoid her own prosecution.
DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING
Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. The bad guys in all the B movies do it. Why should not these "devils" do it?

Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap.

      She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

Note in the above translations is poor. "Wagon trains" are not >from the American Wild West. The term should more correctly be "truck convoys."

      Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots.

And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the trucks themselves. This is rather strange behavior.

We will note later a description of the trucks as being covered. The more correct translation is likely closed as merely "covering" a truck bed would permit escapes whereas the doors of a closed truck could be locked.

So the second thing we notice after the pilots attacking their own people is that they were low enough to see the faces of the pilots from inside these closed (or even covered) trucks. Those of you who have WW II pictures of strafing runs will remember that the planes have to dive on the target and then pull up. You will also remember that such planes line up behind their targets and fire as they close on the targets. These are essential characteristics of a strafing run.

Next we note that these planes are fighters giving them a minimum speed of flight on the order of 100 miles per hour. But since they are diving to for the strafing run they are going significantly faster. And in noting they have to pull out of the dive the lowest safe pullout altitude would be about 100 feet at the lowest point where it would be level to the ground.

Now here we have a claim that the faces were seen from inside a close truck, at an altitude of at least a hundred feet, >from an angle where the nose of the plane would block the view, while passing overhead where the body of the plane would block the view at a speed of at least 100 miles per hour.

This kind of stuff is too impossible to put even in a B movie. But this is a story under oath that is supposedly being believed by experienced attorneys and a judge. Is it any wonder writers about the holocaust have to ignore or quote only very selectively from testimony like this?

      And when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those dying.

As if seeing the faces were not ridiculous enough, the evil one's must laugh, and not just laughter, the devilish laughter the truly befits the evil.

Thie devilish laughter is heard from pilots at least 100 feet in the air over the noise of the engine that is driving a plane at least 100 mph. Not only is it heard from that distance which is no mean feat in itself but over the engine noise from inside a closed cockpit with the body of the plane blocking the sound in addition to the view but it is so loud that it is heard over the normal truck noises and the screams of the dying.

And we are supposed to believe the attorneys are believing this when it is difficult to see how anyone over the age of ten could take one word of it seriously. It is clearly a complete fabrication from the bottom up.

If a person perjures herself in one part of her testimony then all of her testimony is to be rejected.

If she had keep the story simple, saying that planes fired on the trucks then there would not be enough details to judge the validity of the story. But in the details the story is exposed as false. That questions the other parts of the story that are kept simple, such as the stoning and shooting.

Perhaps this person is simply telling the story in the eastern european style but that requires that western europeans not for one moment to consider any of this story as literal truth. All that is does is relieve her of the charge of perjury.

      On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis.

Here we have a classic feature of witchcraft, naked dancing. And these people are devils are they not? It fits the mode of a story about the devil. The devil makes them dance, right out of Night on Bald Mountain.

This is a feature common to many of these stories, being forced to strip and dance. Sometimes an orchestra is organized and the music of someone like Wagner is played. How does one dance to Wagner? Have you ever tried to tip-toe through the Niebelungen?

There might be some credibility to the music stories if they played folks songs or popular music. But if the style of music is mentioned (a false detail thrown in) it is never music suitable for dancing. Thus again, if the stories are detailed enough they make themselves incredible rather than adding corroborating detail as would be expected.

      Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her words shiver and only an echo is heard of those awful days which had become from day to day more terrible.

Rather if there is anything this woman has suffered it is a terrifying trip into an alternate reality where things like this are in fact possible. If what she has described so far was possible in that reality many even more frightening things must have been possible.

At best she did not live a nightmare, she dreamed a nightmare.

      They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?

      Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon you will be broiled and soap will be made from you."

Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right?

The Germans are amused by their victims, what the amusement might be is unclear as they were inside closed vehicles. But they were paying so little attention that Ukranians had snuck into Poland and were permitted to break in trucks and take valuables. The valuables that could have gone to the German guards or taken at Sobibor were taken by "wild" Ukranians.

And during this breakin not one of the prisoners thought to take the opportunity to escape. Or did the wild Ukranians lock the doors while they were inside?

      The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. You will note later on that escapees had to get out the word that Polish farmers knew all about.

It was also a secret and not a secret but the wild Ukranians knew all about it.

It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. One has to wonder just how it was heard from inside the trucks.

You will note below that no one understood what was being said later in this same testimony.

THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS

      The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened from hunger and thirst pains and agony and they started screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp.

This is not a clear statement. It appears to say that the prisoners started screaming so loud from inside the trucks that it was at least noticeable over the entire camp. Perhaps more of the eastern style of storytelling.

      The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have much to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did not understand the meaning of their shouts.

They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? Then she was Polish and (in the opening to the testimony) that she had started from Kracow to the east of Sobibor. So just where did they pick up people from the west and south of Sobibor? Is she trying to say everyone was shipped to Krakow first for some reason?

      At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: "You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other clothes here."

He we have a little more of this getting naked outdoors stuff.

      Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three women survived chosen to work in the laundry.

This is clearly a statement from the narrator. If we presume that it was 7,000 men and women then it makes a bit more sense.

      With an indication of his finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, but she managed to get them out of the line.

In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened to the others after this point in the story. Except of course aerial photos of Sobibor show no signs of a crematorium. So it unclear where these people were going other than the implied showers.

      The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few craftsmen were allowed to survive.

But she has no way of knowing. But only three women survived for the laundry but some craftsmen survived but they were no selected before passing through the gate.
SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

      We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you can".

They organized a laundry where none existed before and then the laundry was expanded. It is unclear just what the expansion of the laundry was for unless a) the number of Germans increased or b) the number of inmates increased. Neither increase would make sense on the assumption this was an extermination camp. (It was, in fact, a work camp specializing in logging and lumber production.)

      The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while writing every word going out of her mouth.

      The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what she has seen with her own eyes.

Who would want to hear more of such an absurd tale? These are serious people who really have better to do than to suppress their incredulity.

      But how can she not tell about the shouts of women who arrived with the night transports.

That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means?

      The heartbreaking shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

But Ada Lichtman was not raped. Must have been real ugly. How did the SS pass up the opportunity to do the same at her arrival? Again, consider the lack of credibility of this witness.

      Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summer day a transport arrived with thirsty people as it had been for several days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharführer" Michel was already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug-up hole which served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thirsty people of the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each other to death. The last one remaining >from this terrible battle was shot by the Germans.

And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted.

But even more interesting are the other aspects that appear strangely common yet told in different ways. These SS folks for some reason get some kind of thrill out of seeing people covered in excrement. They also appear to have picked up a Romanesque interest in battles to the death.

Where such interests might have come from is unclear, either for Germans to have them or for Easterners to invent them.

HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

      The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor after the revolt are horrifying.

      They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium.

There is a minor problem with this part of the story. Aerial photos of Sobibor show no signs of a crematorium. Other than that ... the story is that the gassed were first buried and later dug up and burned in bonfires, neither of which shows up in the aerial photos either.
This massacre was supervised by the "Oberscharführer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place at the present moment. Returning from the scene of the murder he ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and dance.
Here we have another of those dancing, singing, orchestral moments that punctuate so much of the Holocaust. Perhaps she forgot to mention that they were naked but at least it has the civility of constructing a stage.

      This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child.

Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? It is unclear just what was the "crime" of eating sardines. Perhaps it was simply a more extreme response than was involved in the search for the missing strawberries.

      Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kinds of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to chop trees. Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same.

Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is nothing new.
THE REBELLION COMMITTEE

      Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided revenge.

Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to await the arrival of a Russian to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them?

But the story is now changing to the work camp it really was.

      In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use in order to conceal this. Many efforts of the spirit and mind, will and courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make passage ways.

THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED

      The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into the trap looking for a hiding place.

It appears she is saying that men were not gassed. The story does need a good editor, excuse me, an editor, a good editor would not touch the job.

      The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews.

Now wait a minute. Poland was an occupied country. The SS did not limit itself to jews. And here we have Poles helping the SS? It sounds a bit like this person from Kracow has a strong dislike of Poles in addition to Poles.
Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached the forest they wandered around day and night, living off tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their intestines that they wished to die.
This is an otherwise unknown symptom of mushroom poisoning.

      They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place?" The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the question remained unanswered.

It appears there was no presumption of innocense in this trial.
===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:55 PDT 1996 Article: 72991 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Lies Again Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:44:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 809 Message-ID: <53i63n$c4o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53a9uq$n31@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53b0mn$2fm@news.enter.net> <53chc9$jv6@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53gl9a$no2@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Oct 1996 17:52:58 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: > Matt should be familiar with the following quote, as it has been >cited several times: > "He who makes a claim bears the responsibility of supporting it." > - Matt Giwer >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >>On 7 Oct 1996 13:31:03 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >>>> mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >>>> Let us keep this straight, you are in violation of your oath as an >>>> officer of the court or you are lying. >>> What oath, criminal. Please tell me all about it. >> The one you took, jew. > Be more specific Matt - vague allegations don't make anyone's case >look good. Cite the text of the oath, specifying the oath and which part(s) >of it you claim Yale is in violation of. After all: > "He who makes a claim bears the responsibility of supporting it." > - Matt Giwer > Derek >Read the information the Giwer-troll fears: The Trial of the Executioner of Sobibor
The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski

THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
Shimon Kanz

      A jury of judges, prosecutors and defenders who arrived from Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for 3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the prosecution over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered their heads.

      In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.
SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

      "Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provoking and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory throughout my life."

It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination, although it is not clear >from which side the questions are coming.

      The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horror accompanied the route >from Krakow from where the Germans had openly exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during the work in the camp Postak.

"Stone him. Stone him."

"Jehovah! Jehovah!"

Stoned? How biblical. However this does stand as the only report of death by stoning to come from the witnesses. It is a nice touch.

      The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the "Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

      Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

As we find later she was in charge of something at the camp. Those in charge of something commonly misused their position for power. Although this person is not named as one of them, it was common and can be an answer to the question. That answer being, she was making a victim of herself to avoid her own prosecution.
DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING
Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. The bad guys in all the B movies do it. Why should not these "devils" do it?

Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap.

      She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

Note in the above translations is poor. "Wagon trains" are not >from the American Wild West. The term should more correctly be "truck convoys."

      Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots.

And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the trucks themselves. This is rather strange behavior.

We will note later a description of the trucks as being covered. The more correct translation is likely closed as merely "covering" a truck bed would permit escapes whereas the doors of a closed truck could be locked.

So the second thing we notice after the pilots attacking their own people is that they were low enough to see the faces of the pilots from inside these closed (or even covered) trucks. Those of you who have WW II pictures of strafing runs will remember that the planes have to dive on the target and then pull up. You will also remember that such planes line up behind their targets and fire as they close on the targets. These are essential characteristics of a strafing run.

Next we note that these planes are fighters giving them a minimum speed of flight on the order of 100 miles per hour. But since they are diving to for the strafing run they are going significantly faster. And in noting they have to pull out of the dive the lowest safe pullout altitude would be about 100 feet at the lowest point where it would be level to the ground.

Now here we have a claim that the faces were seen from inside a close truck, at an altitude of at least a hundred feet, >from an angle where the nose of the plane would block the view, while passing overhead where the body of the plane would block the view at a speed of at least 100 miles per hour.

This kind of stuff is too impossible to put even in a B movie. But this is a story under oath that is supposedly being believed by experienced attorneys and a judge. Is it any wonder writers about the holocaust have to ignore or quote only very selectively from testimony like this?

      And when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those dying.

As if seeing the faces were not ridiculous enough, the evil one's must laugh, and not just laughter, the devilish laughter the truly befits the evil.

Thie devilish laughter is heard from pilots at least 100 feet in the air over the noise of the engine that is driving a plane at least 100 mph. Not only is it heard from that distance which is no mean feat in itself but over the engine noise from inside a closed cockpit with the body of the plane blocking the sound in addition to the view but it is so loud that it is heard over the normal truck noises and the screams of the dying.

And we are supposed to believe the attorneys are believing this when it is difficult to see how anyone over the age of ten could take one word of it seriously. It is clearly a complete fabrication from the bottom up.

If a person perjures herself in one part of her testimony then all of her testimony is to be rejected.

If she had keep the story simple, saying that planes fired on the trucks then there would not be enough details to judge the validity of the story. But in the details the story is exposed as false. That questions the other parts of the story that are kept simple, such as the stoning and shooting.

Perhaps this person is simply telling the story in the eastern european style but that requires that western europeans not for one moment to consider any of this story as literal truth. All that is does is relieve her of the charge of perjury.

      On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis.

Here we have a classic feature of witchcraft, naked dancing. And these people are devils are they not? It fits the mode of a story about the devil. The devil makes them dance, right out of Night on Bald Mountain.

This is a feature common to many of these stories, being forced to strip and dance. Sometimes an orchestra is organized and the music of someone like Wagner is played. How does one dance to Wagner? Have you ever tried to tip-toe through the Niebelungen?

There might be some credibility to the music stories if they played folks songs or popular music. But if the style of music is mentioned (a false detail thrown in) it is never music suitable for dancing. Thus again, if the stories are detailed enough they make themselves incredible rather than adding corroborating detail as would be expected.

      Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her words shiver and only an echo is heard of those awful days which had become from day to day more terrible.

Rather if there is anything this woman has suffered it is a terrifying trip into an alternate reality where things like this are in fact possible. If what she has described so far was possible in that reality many even more frightening things must have been possible.

At best she did not live a nightmare, she dreamed a nightmare.

      They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?

      Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon you will be broiled and soap will be made from you."

Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right?

The Germans are amused by their victims, what the amusement might be is unclear as they were inside closed vehicles. But they were paying so little attention that Ukranians had snuck into Poland and were permitted to break in trucks and take valuables. The valuables that could have gone to the German guards or taken at Sobibor were taken by "wild" Ukranians.

And during this breakin not one of the prisoners thought to take the opportunity to escape. Or did the wild Ukranians lock the doors while they were inside?

      The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. You will note later on that escapees had to get out the word that Polish farmers knew all about.

It was also a secret and not a secret but the wild Ukranians knew all about it.

It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. One has to wonder just how it was heard from inside the trucks.

You will note below that no one understood what was being said later in this same testimony.

THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS

      The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened from hunger and thirst pains and agony and they started screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp.

This is not a clear statement. It appears to say that the prisoners started screaming so loud from inside the trucks that it was at least noticeable over the entire camp. Perhaps more of the eastern style of storytelling.

      The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have much to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did not understand the meaning of their shouts.

They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? Then she was Polish and (in the opening to the testimony) that she had started from Kracow to the east of Sobibor. So just where did they pick up people from the west and south of Sobibor? Is she trying to say everyone was shipped to Krakow first for some reason?

      At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: "You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other clothes here."

He we have a little more of this getting naked outdoors stuff.

      Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three women survived chosen to work in the laundry.

This is clearly a statement from the narrator. If we presume that it was 7,000 men and women then it makes a bit more sense.

      With an indication of his finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, but she managed to get them out of the line.

In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened to the others after this point in the story. Except of course aerial photos of Sobibor show no signs of a crematorium. So it unclear where these people were going other than the implied showers.

      The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few craftsmen were allowed to survive.

But she has no way of knowing. But only three women survived for the laundry but some craftsmen survived but they were no selected before passing through the gate.
SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

      We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you can".

They organized a laundry where none existed before and then the laundry was expanded. It is unclear just what the expansion of the laundry was for unless a) the number of Germans increased or b) the number of inmates increased. Neither increase would make sense on the assumption this was an extermination camp. (It was, in fact, a work camp specializing in logging and lumber production.)

      The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while writing every word going out of her mouth.

      The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what she has seen with her own eyes.

Who would want to hear more of such an absurd tale? These are serious people who really have better to do than to suppress their incredulity.

      But how can she not tell about the shouts of women who arrived with the night transports.

That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means?

      The heartbreaking shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

But Ada Lichtman was not raped. Must have been real ugly. How did the SS pass up the opportunity to do the same at her arrival? Again, consider the lack of credibility of this witness.

      Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summer day a transport arrived with thirsty people as it had been for several days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharführer" Michel was already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug-up hole which served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thirsty people of the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each other to death. The last one remaining >from this terrible battle was shot by the Germans.

And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted.

But even more interesting are the other aspects that appear strangely common yet told in different ways. These SS folks for some reason get some kind of thrill out of seeing people covered in excrement. They also appear to have picked up a Romanesque interest in battles to the death.

Where such interests might have come from is unclear, either for Germans to have them or for Easterners to invent them.

HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

      The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor after the revolt are horrifying.

      They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium.

There is a minor problem with this part of the story. Aerial photos of Sobibor show no signs of a crematorium. Other than that ... the story is that the gassed were first buried and later dug up and burned in bonfires, neither of which shows up in the aerial photos either.
This massacre was supervised by the "Oberscharführer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place at the present moment. Returning from the scene of the murder he ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and dance.
Here we have another of those dancing, singing, orchestral moments that punctuate so much of the Holocaust. Perhaps she forgot to mention that they were naked but at least it has the civility of constructing a stage.

      This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child.

Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? It is unclear just what was the "crime" of eating sardines. Perhaps it was simply a more extreme response than was involved in the search for the missing strawberries.

      Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kinds of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to chop trees. Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same.

Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is nothing new.
THE REBELLION COMMITTEE

      Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided revenge.

Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to await the arrival of a Russian to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them?

But the story is now changing to the work camp it really was.

      In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use in order to conceal this. Many efforts of the spirit and mind, will and courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make passage ways.

THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED

      The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into the trap looking for a hiding place.

It appears she is saying that men were not gassed. The story does need a good editor, excuse me, an editor, a good editor would not touch the job.

      The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews.

Now wait a minute. Poland was an occupied country. The SS did not limit itself to jews. And here we have Poles helping the SS? It sounds a bit like this person from Kracow has a strong dislike of Poles in addition to Poles.
Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached the forest they wandered around day and night, living off tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their intestines that they wished to die.
This is an otherwise unknown symptom of mushroom poisoning.

      They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place?" The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the question remained unanswered.

It appears there was no presumption of innocense in this trial.
===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:56 PDT 1996 Article: 72992 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:10:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <53i7k5$lmv@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <534qql$1ml@Vir.com> <53f5is$d2g@Vir.com> <325bb4b8.1524783@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <53gifp$fun@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Oct 1996 09:05:13 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <325bb4b8.1524783@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, >jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: >>It is quite true that the Kremas were visible from the "local" farms. >>It is also quite true that those farms had been confiscated from their >>former Polish owners and were operated entirely by the SS using inmate >>labour. >Several Polish farmers in that area are interviewed in Shoah - >they provide clear evidence that spending too much time paying >attention to Auschwitz was unhealthy. But you have posted the TRUTH that farmers taunting prisoners entering Sobibor was the common behavior of such farmers. It is SOP for holohuggers to want it both ways at the same time. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:57 PDT 1996 Article: 72994 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: conundrum Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:58:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Holohuggers claim there is no holohugger making harrassing phone calls to me and my family. If they are correct then the following is false. When I find out who is making the harrassing phone calls, I will make him wish he were dead even to the point of making him dead. But that would be an accident, a long lived blind cripple is my true objective. If holohuggers are truthful people the above has no meaning. If they are liars then they will claim the above is a death threat. But as we know holohuggers are liars and viciously violent people. We also know they do not lie and no one is conducting this harrassment campaign. Therefore I have not made a threat. And of course, any complaint about a threat will prove there is knowledge of harrassment by holohuggers. Accessories will need be questioned as to their knowledge and complicity. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:57 PDT 1996 Article: 73004 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Continuing myths Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:47:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <53id9u$k1u@mtibkc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <52u8ca$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <535ks8$nnn@lex.zippo.com> <536qsc$o43@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53h91e$g2c@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:13:47 GMT, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582: >What is this? Book, magazine, paper. >Would like to have photocopy of entire article or speech. As I am regularly advised, go to a library. >Why is six million significant in 1919? Prescience; phychic powers, whatever you would like. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:58 PDT 1996 Article: 73005 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THE HOLOCAUST? Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:55:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <53idoq$k1u@mtibkc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <325A130C.7A14@avana.net> <53fu02$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325b17c9.765489@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 03:17:13 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote: >On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 10:14:01 GMT, mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >>On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:38:36 -0400, Chris DeNeve >>wrote: >> >>>Why should I believe the holocaust really happened. I have seen no >>>conclusive evidence. Just some old guy came to my school and said >>>that the fact he had numbers tatooed on his hand was proof. >> >> According to one of the standard staries, his tatttoo is evidence that >>there was no gassing. His very existance, if he claims he is jewish, means >>the intent to exterminate Jews was either not there or missed the obvious. >Once again the imperious I.Q. of the bloated besotted troll toad is >placed in action, notice that it could have said that the Tattoo is >evidence that the nazis did indeed number Jews and others entering >death camps, though some did survive, thus they weren't gassed, thus >it doesn't prove any thing about gassing. The the nazis did miss the >obvious and didn't murder all those who were in the death camps, such >as Jews, Poles, Gypsies, and others, because they didn't have the >time. To obvious for the bloated besotted troll toad intellect, which >while claiming to have an rather bloated I.Q. is nothing but the sound >of the bloated besotted troll toad in his pond of puke. Thank you. That puts me head and shoulders above braindead holohuggers such as youselves. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:59 PDT 1996 Article: 73006 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THE HOLOCAUST? Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:57:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <53idtk$k1u@mtibkc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <325A130C.7A14@avana.net> <53fu02$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:33:58 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: ># According to one of the standard staries, his tatttoo is ># evidence that there was no gassing. His very existance, if he ># claims he is jewish, means the intent to exterminate Jews was ># either not there or missed the obvious. >What a leap of logic. Since the Nazis didn't have enough time >to kill *all* the Jews, this means they never meant to kill >Jews in the first place? >You have claimed that the IDF tried to kill every sailor on >the Liberty. Yet, the large majority of the sailors were not >killed. You have just contradicted yourself. As you know I have posted eyewtiness testimony to the serial number being branded, not tattooed, in addition to the Star of David being brnded on their chests. As you know, those eyewitnesses told the thruth even though there is not one example of it. As I have said, no physical evidence.. Reality gets in the way of holohugger fanstasy. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:00 PDT 1996 Article: 73026 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Giwer Takes the Bait!!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:18:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 58 Message-ID: <53fn81$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <3250a0bc.206899418@news.cris.com> <534bfk$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53ab5p$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:97595 alt.revisionism:73026 On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 10:47:34 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote: >In article <53ab5p$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >mgiwer2@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >* I sleep very well, thank you. I do not have to live with the >fantasy of >*mass extermination as you do. >* >*This will be my last direct post >*>to you, as you don't deserve my time, nor my intellect. >* >* Of course it will lbe your last as you have no intellect to speak of, >*thinking that acceptance in college is of some merit in these affirmative >*action days, patitcularly for minorities like blacks and majorities like >*women. >* >*>I encourage >*>others to ignore this crazed, genetic misfit called Matt Giwer, as he >*>thrives from follw-ups. He represents the absolute sick and twisted and >*>sompletely wrong minority in this world and no longer deserves our time, >*>nor our effort. He will slowley wither away to nothingness without our >*>encouragement. I say... we let him. The facts are on our side... not on >*>his. >* >* The silly little bitch thinks she has said something important. >She is in >*fact a fatbroad going to college for no other purpose than to find a >*husband. >LOOK EVERYONE!!! See the Giwer get defensive! See the Giwer hurl >unbased, silly, childish insults at people he doesn't know because he can >think of nothing better to say!! See the Giwer realizing he's wrong, >after being proven wrong for the millionth time, and get all pissy about >it! Look everyone! It's so much fun to bait a dim bulb like Giwer. >C'mon everyone!! Join in the fun! Post your own rebuttles proving >Giwer's ignorance, and watch the troll squirm! Yay! It is difficult to see how even an ill-educated type such as yourself can think you said something substantive that would support anything you are claiming. And now the great "guess the major" game begins. Literature and education are the most likely possibilities. Education with a literature minor the most likely combination. And what is certain is that she thinks both are "challenging." ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 12:41:11 PDT 1996 Article: 73039 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:13:41 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <53en9o$nmj@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <534qql$1ml@Vir.com> <53ae6e$erh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53cjfc$k22@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:45:40 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: ># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >You're posting from worldnet, Matty? Did netcom kick you >out, after your e-mail bombs? >## http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Krema4.jpg >## >## These are not trees? ># That is your captioning. I am posting the real pictures. >You're posting the real pictures? Knowing Giwer, he's probably >posting the photo of Eva Braun's bathroom, claiming it's the >crematorium. >Where is this "real picture" of yours, Matty? Where did you >get it from? I am certain you will recognize them when you see them. ># You self worth is totally enwrapped in what someone else ># will pay you. That is pitiful. >Get a job, you damned leech. You claim to have an IQ of 163. It >should not be so difficult if that is true. I have no ego interest in what others are willing to pay me. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgwier@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 12:41:12 PDT 1996 Article: 73052 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news From: mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: conundrum Date: 10 Oct 1996 16:47:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <53j9aq$qa0@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> References: <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on2-10.netcom.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 10 12:47:22 PM EDT 1996 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 In article <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@worldnet.att.net says... > > Holohuggers claim there is no holohugger making harrassing phone calls to >me and my family. If they are correct then the following is false. > > When I find out who is making the harrassing phone calls, I will make him >wish he were dead even to the point of making him dead. But that would be >an accident, a long lived blind cripple is my true objective. > EEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T SEE!!! AND I HAVE FALLEN AND CAN'T GET UP!!! READ THE PAGE THAT MAKES YOUR FORESKIN SING: http://www.babylonians.com From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 13:58:52 PDT 1996 Article: 73064 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.PBI.net!super.zippo.com!zdc!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Matt Giwer of Florida is a Nazi Sympathizer; give him a ring and tell him! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:45:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <53i654$c4o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53bdoh$9r3@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53dv2v$ru6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <53ehbr$14n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53f86b$f2n@news1.panix.com> <325BA0AB.7F02@ccnis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:32567 alt.revisionism:73064 On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:55:07 -0400, "Annie Alpert, OFB" wrote: >Andrew Mathis wrote: >> >> Matt Giwer is a Nazi, or at the very least a Nazi sympathizer. >> >> How do I know? >> >> Harold Covington, leader of the National Socialist White People's >> Party, a.k.a. the American Nazi Party, sent out a column by >> anti-Semitic (sue me) columnist Joseph Sobran on his listserve a day >> or so ago. >> >> Who sent it to Mr. Covington? >> >> Matt Giwer. >> >> How do I know this? >> >> It still had Giwer's sig file at the bottom. >> >> You're a filthy fucking Nazi, Matt. Give up trying to hide your >> partialities. >> >> Andrew Mathis >> >Now isn't THAT interesting? Matt is a Nazi sympathizer. . . Now why >doesn't that surprise me TOO much! It does not surprise you because you are not bright enough to comprehend what is being discussed here. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 13:58:53 PDT 1996 Article: 73074 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: look at what the silly jews are up to now Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:46:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <53jjtn$8cl@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Kaspu Corporation (BABYLONIANS-DOM) 2788 Bathurst St. #218 Toronto, Ontario M6B-3A3 Canada Domain Name: BABYLONIANS.COM Administrative Contact: Manny Amaral (MA13-ORG) babyblue@IDIRECT.COM (416) 233-7150 Fax: (416) 233-6970 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Herczeg, Laszlo (LH90) las@IDIRECT.COM +1 416 233-7150 Billing Contact: Bell, Howard (HB180) dns@IDIRECT.COM 416-233-7150 Record last updated on 28-Aug-96. Record created on 28-Aug-96. Domain servers in listed order: CNS1.IDIRECT.COM 207.136.66.20 CNS2.IDIRECT.COM 207.136.80.18 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 15:21:42 PDT 1996 Article: 73092 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:16:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <53jp7c$2pm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <325d7e83.4204398@news.inetport.com> <53da2h$d7q@juliana.sprynet.com> <325e6c0e.2929082@news.inetport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Behold the Keren, it createth a straw man and tearest it down. On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:26:14 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Let's look at those memoirs again, and at the "revisionist" >claim that they were dictated to Hoess by the Soviets and the >Poles. >The Soviets and Poles claimed 4 million deaths at Auschwitz, >while Hoess gives in his memoirs a rather accurate estimate >of about 1.3 million. Moreover, he mocks the higher estimates, >saying they are fruit of wild imagination, etc. >Can you see how stupid the "revisionist" claim is? Perhaps it is so stupid because you created it. >Can anyone explain how come, if they told him what to write, >they told him to give a figure for the victims so very >different from theirs? And they also told him "hey, Hoess old >chap, don't forget to write that only an idiot would support >the figures we claim are true"? >Also, can any "revisionist" explain why the Soviets and the >Poles would have told Hoess to write that the Soviet POW's >behaved like a horde of animals, killing each other for a >piece of bread, practicing cannibalism, etc? >And why they would have told him to write that the Polish >prisoners were bitterly fighting among them, even killing >each other, in battles for higher positions in the inmate >hierarchy? Can you explain WHEN he was supposed to have written it, dictated or not? Can you explain why it was not introduced into evidence against him? Can you explain why he was acquitted of the charge of gassing Polish civilians and convicted of shooting POWs? ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:18 PDT 1996 Article: 73125 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: from the new bible Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:41:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 9 Message-ID: <53k1mo$61g@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 "I looked into the name of the holocaust and it's number was six million. Count ye not to twelve but to directly to six." ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:01 PDT 1996 Article: 73141 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: HOLO-HOAX DESTROYED FROM THE AIR!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:26:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <53k7rk$a83@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <52t8jn$bs9@infinity.c2.net> <52vcuk$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <325a38e3.1075541@news.sure.net> <32581b88.88044@news.sure.net> <53dr74$sd9@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53eat3$bm1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325AD3E4.5DAF@rio.com> <325c8606.2710274@news.sure.net> <53gpo4$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53i5d1$889@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73141 alt.politics.nationalism.white:32602 alt.politics.white-power:46197 alt.skinheads:39327 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:21:51 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >In article <53i5d1$889@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> And what does it mean that Nizkor carries the same photos and that they >> were originally released by the CIA? >> >> Fact of life, boy. Get used to it. >Well obviously it means that Nizkor is run by the DOD, or specifically, the >cat of the sister of the guy who ingers 1B Systems from the Milnet >database. >By the way, you're a troll: > "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. > That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the > idiocies of the holohuggers. I will post just enough to you > folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time > wasted. I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish." > - Giwer, Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> >Of course it gets worse - not only are you a troll, but you are a troll who >resorts to continual lies, harassment, threats, and general prevarication >in an attempt to deny what you know to be truth - you, little man, are >completely devoid of anything resembling decency, morality, and integrity. >For confirmation and reference, please examine the copious documentation >available at And you support Marduk's death threats? Why would you you support those idirect folks? Just because they are jews? ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:02 PDT 1996 Article: 73142 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: euthanasia murders? Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:00:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <53fikc$luu@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <52ooac$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325195bb.15067718@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <534bei$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <844502535snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <53aaiv$osc@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <844733568snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 08 Oct 96 00:12:48 GMT, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) wrote: >In article <53aaiv$osc@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> > mgiwer@worldnet.att.net "Matt Giwer" writes: >> >> I did not think we were debating Keren here but it is clear that he >> promotes as true the obvious lies of Israel regarding the murder of the >> crew of the USS Liberty. He pretends to be both a US citizen and a Jew >> which makes him a jew traitor by his own words. >> >> There may be larger issues here but there is no reason not to indentify >> him >> for what he has professed to be by his own words. >Dan is like so many others of his kind, a victim of indoctrination. The thought >that someone can have a contrary opinion on this subject without being an >anti-Semite causes him great consternation. When a man joins the Marines, it is expected that he will be indoctrinated, in fact he has chosen it. Some years into his career, it becomes his job to indoctriante others. Although Keren is now in the stage of indoctrinating others, he was at one time desirous of becoming indoctrinated. It was a choice he freely made. Beynod attempting to discuss what really might have happened despite the noise level, a good part of the effort is provide the background fo the lurkers so that they will not choose indoctrination, to know there is information other than what they have been lead to believe. That way they may choose to think for themselves. The very least we need to do is let others know there is another side so that as a minimum they put it into the "not sure" category. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:03 PDT 1996 Article: 73170 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Continuing myths Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:00:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <53k9rb$2ii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <52u8ca$5mq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <535ks8$nnn@lex.zippo.com> <536qsc$o43@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53h91e$g2c@lex.zippo.com> <53id9u$k1u@mtibkc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325D2C38.8B1@ccnis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:02:48 -0400, "Annie Alpert, OFB" wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:13:47 GMT, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) >> wrote: >> >> >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >> _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582: >> >> >What is this? Book, magazine, paper. >> >Would like to have photocopy of entire article or speech. >> >> As I am regularly advised, go to a library. >Are you telling us YOU went into a library in Florida and found issues >of the "American Hebrew" going back to 1919? Then you read each and >every issue until you found one with the phrase "six million", and made >a note of it for future reference? I am telling you nothing other than to stop sending me email that duplicates your public posts. But of course if you think Florida is devoid of jews ... >Wow! What excellent research skills! And what a marvelous library you >have in your community. Mind telling me which library you used? I am suggesting you find it on your own. That is what holohuggers keep telling me. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:04 PDT 1996 Article: 73179 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: look as the silly jews now Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:11:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 95 Message-ID: <53kag5$997@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 And remember that Colin MacGregor lied and all of idirect lied. 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Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:05 PDT 1996 Article: 73185 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holohugger idiocy repeated again Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:13:42 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <53kajv$997@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53bdoh$9r3@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53dv2v$ru6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <53ehbr$14n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53f86b$f2n@news1.panix.com> <53gmlo$n8f@decaxp.harvard.edu> <53i6de$c4o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53jh4g$c2e@news1.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:32612 alt.revisionism:73185 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:10:32 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: It is interesting to see that you confirm you are in fact that stupid. The curious part of it is why you are proud of it. >To quote an Alaskan correspondent: Don't call neo-Nazis neo-Nazis; >call them Nazis. I don't call the dogshit on my front lawn when it >thaws out in April "neo-dogshit." >Eat that, Herr Giwer. >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 9 Oct 1996 17:16:40 GMT, stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) wrote: >>> I have heard it too from a very good source that Matt Giwer is Nazi. >>> He should admit it publicaly and not hide. >> In other words you truly believe that I am a member of a political party >>that was disbanded in 1945. >> That makes you terminally stupid but not exceptional for a holohugger. >>>-- >>>============================================================================== >>> HELL, IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW,IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE >>> THE LUXURY OF WALKING UP FROM YOUR NIGHTMARES. >>> A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR! >> SciFi Channel Sightings is going to feature (10/11/96) a person remembering >>being a victim in his past life. >> It is not amazing how far the psychotic holohuggers will go to create >>victims? >>>============================================================================== ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:05 PDT 1996 Article: 73188 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Interesting Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 03:08:42 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <53kdr8$gnd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Watching the documentary NUREMBERG on the Discovery Channel. The primary charge in the minds of those interviewed was a conspiracy to wage aggressive warfare. It was not explained what other kind of warfare there is. It was hardly anything approaching a complete record of any kind but the out-takes made some things quite clear. If those charged had defense counsel they counsel either slept through the questioning or were not permitting to object to leading questions, the prosecutions giving testimony, and a host of other things that would result in a successful appeal in a fair trial. Almost every question shown would result in a sustained objection in a fair trial. YFE holds Nuremberg was a fair trial. ===== Churchill's statement the Russia was dividing Europe with an Iron Curtain was a phrase he borrowed from Goebbels. ===== Alfred Krupp was convicted and the assets of his company were siezed. That certainly put a value upon finding his guilty of doing what the government told him to do. After serving only two years of a 12 year sentence he was released and his assets restored. ===== As a result of the first trial there were eleven death sentences. The bodies were burned in the Dachau crematorium. The film of it indicated it was an unsheltered single oven affair like the one at Belsen. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:06 PDT 1996 Article: 73190 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 03:15:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <53ke74$knm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <534qql$1ml@Vir.com> <53ae6e$erh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53f5is$d2g@Vir.com> <53hduj$5aj@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Oct 1996 23:53:55 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> >> >> # There's just few trees near this crema, and back, dozens of >> # meters away we can see trees, but what we don't see in the photo >> >> Oh yes we do. Very, very clearly. >> >> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Krema4.jpg >> >> I see a great many trees there. Maybe you should have your >> eyes examined. > Do you contest that few meters away from this crema, approximativelly > from the place where the photographer took this picture, there was > dozens of barracks according to Birkenau map? YES or NO? If you look at the aerial pictures, the tne number of trees is meaningless. The Krema is no further from the barracks than the barracks are from each other. Of course the Chuckle Fairy claims the picture is a CIA forgery, for what hat is worth. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 10 23:07:07 PDT 1996 Article: 73193 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!solace!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:07:09 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <53fj1k$o4r@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53ecq9$ov8@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53ekio$res@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Oct 1996 22:28:40 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >> On 8 Oct 1996 09:20:51 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> > You most certainly have. As one example you have, falsely, accused >> >the investigators of the Malmedy massacre of phsyically torturing German soldiers >to >> >extract confessions. > >> You mean you are still holding to your position that they all had their >> attorneys present during all questioning? > Liar. I have never stated that. I thought you stated the accused were given fair trials? What that someone else? ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 00:35:25 PDT 1996 Article: 73195 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 03:27:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <53keup$t2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <534qql$1ml@Vir.com> <53at2m$rhs@Vir.com> <53hdjn$5aj@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Oct 1996 23:48:07 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu writes: >> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> >> # You have it folk. He's supposed to talk about 'krema 4 >> # and 5' ?? 1,5 km Sout-West of Birkenau???? >> >> Yes - relative to the SS HQ of Birkenau. > An where did he say relative to the SS HQ? nowhere. He's talking > about Birkenau. He's talking about a small wood, and locate the > 'gas chamber' IN this wood, not close to a couple of trees that > are in the vicinity of Birkenau. And he said that the 'gas chamber' > was camouflated in this wood. Your explication is ridiculous. > If you have the pretention to read in the mind and transform > each of his words according to your will, that's up to you. The > words that he used mean simply: starting from the SW corner of > Birkenau, 1 to 1,5 km away in a straight line. When I'm saying > 1 km on the south of central park, this doesn't mean 'starting > from 680 meters on the north of the southern border of central park' > but 1 km on the south of the southern border. From the aerial photo, EVERYTHING in that direction from ANY place in the camp including the border is either more of the camp or worked farmland. And there is quite a network of access roads in that direction. He is making up his patch of trees. There is nothing but farmland. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 00:35:26 PDT 1996 Article: 73196 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news1.hay.mci.net!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Giwer Takes the Bait!!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:20:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 437 Message-ID: <53fnb1$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53ab5p$cq@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53eom0$4rn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.tampa-1.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Oct 1996 16:38:40 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: > "Of course I ahve [sic] not been to the museum, dumbtwat.... > It is only a lying idiot dumbtwat who would suggest that > visiting a particular museum is a sine que non for belief." > (Matt Giwer, Sept. 4, 1996) >In article , >kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote: >[a vulgar sot, desperate for attention, wrote] > "The silly little bitch thinks she has said something > important. She is in fact a fatbroad going to college for no > other purpose than to find a husband." >>LOOK EVERYONE!!! See the Giwer get defensive! See the Giwer hurl >>unbased, silly, childish insults at people he doesn't know because he can >>think of nothing better to say!! See the Giwer realizing he's wrong, >>after being proven wrong for the millionth time, and get all pissy about >>it! Look everyone! It's so much fun to bait a dim bulb like Giwer. >>C'mon everyone!! Join in the fun! Post your own rebuttles proving >>Giwer's ignorance, and watch the troll squirm! Yay! >Never mind the insults, Madam! Consider the victory, the HONOUR! >Has not the silly little sh/^H^Hgiwer himself bestowed upon you the >greatest honour he is capable of offering? >Has he not admitted defeat, and inducted you? > Are you not now a FATBROAD? > http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad/ >Rejoice! Rejoice! You've beaten the pathetic little sot. Now >you can ignore him by putting him into your KILL file... no >question it drives the little fella nuts, because he keeps >changing his userid to get around them... he knows nothing >about KILL files, of course, so it doesn't work, but it's >amusing to watch. >Fatbroad! Wow. Near immediate induction into the Sisterhood. Wow. On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ >To eliminate Mr. Giwer's vulgarity from your daily newsreading, add the >lines > /gmiwer@/f=j > /mgiwer@/f=j > /mgwier@/f=j >to your universal KILL file. If you do not enjoy the luxury of such a >filter, simply delete Mr. Giwer's articles unread. >Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and >now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the >bell is sounded. Not only does this demonstrate how readily he takes to >the halter, but how little he knows about KILL files. >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings. >-- >Nizkor Canada | http://www.nizkor.org >-----------------------| Remember John Hron > |-------------------------------------- > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/ ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:31 PDT 1996 Article: 73218 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news1.hay.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: policy statement Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:27:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 12 Message-ID: <53kpg4$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The issue is "Holohuggers can believe anything they want BUT imposing that belief on me or my children or my actions or the actions of my fellow citizens or the actions of my country makes it the imposition of tyranny and personal affair." ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:32 PDT 1996 Article: 73223 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:31:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <53kpn7$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53aup7$pmo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53c9ne$13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325A590F.48BF@ccnis.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net> <325D3305.4CD3@ccnis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:31:49 -0400, "Annie Alpert, OFB" wrote: >Judith Toth wrote: >> The Torah/Deutoronomy 14:21 - >> "You shall not eat anything that has died a natural death; give it to >> the stranger in you community to eat, or you may sell it to a >> foreigner. For you are a people consecrated to the LORD your God." >> /page352 The Torah, the Five Books of Moses, Jewish Publication >> Society of America, Phil. 1962/ >> Your interpretation on this would be appreciated!..... >> >I seems to say, "Don't eat roadkill but if someone else wants it let >them have it." Which brings up the question as to whether holohugger roadkill is clean or unclean. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:32 PDT 1996 Article: 73224 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THE HOLOCAUST? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:41:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 65 Message-ID: <53kqbd$in2@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <325A130C.7A14@avana.net> <53fu02$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325b17c9.765489@news> <53idoq$k1u@mtibkc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53jd0e$25i@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 10 Oct 1996 18:50:06 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >> Thank you. That puts me head and shoulders above braindead holohuggers >>such as youselves. > Translation: "I, Matt Giwer, am in no need of facts. They merely get in >the way of my opinions!" > Derek >Read the information the Giwer-troll fears: Whois Ken McVay? === McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA 462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8 CA 1-604-382-0615 Record last updated on 18-Jul-96. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli intelligence. === McVay, Ken (KM214) 1B Systems Management Limited 5-1601 Bowen Road Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7 CA (604) 758-2499 kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA Record last updated on 02-Apr-96. Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information. All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:33 PDT 1996 Article: 73227 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: You too can become rich in spirit Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:50:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <53kqrh$m7n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Attached are the names and stories of ten survivors of the holocaust. Remove the top name and add your name to the bottom of the list and include your story. Mail this story to ten other holocaust survivors. In time you will receive at least 50,000 survivor stories as you rise to the top of the list. You break this chain your first born shall be forfeit to Yahweh. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:34 PDT 1996 Article: 73228 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THE HOLOCAUST? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:42:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 67 Message-ID: <53kqbh$in2@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <325A130C.7A14@avana.net> <53fu02$h2o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53jcio$1vk@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 10 Oct 1996 18:42:48 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >> According to one of the standard staries, his tatttoo is evidence that >>there was no gassing. His very existance, if he claims he is jewish, means >>the intent to exterminate Jews was either not there or missed the obvious. > How about this: they were defeated before the plan could be completed. > I think Matt's missed the obvious. > Derek >Read the information the Giwer-troll fears: Whois Ken McVay? === McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA 462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8 CA 1-604-382-0615 Record last updated on 18-Jul-96. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli intelligence. === McVay, Ken (KM214) 1B Systems Management Limited 5-1601 Bowen Road Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7 CA (604) 758-2499 kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA Record last updated on 02-Apr-96. Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information. All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:35 PDT 1996 Article: 73229 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: One more lesson in statistics Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:57:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <53kr8m$p3p@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53j0tr$rsr@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 10 Oct 1996 10:23:55 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>, >Judith Toth wrote: >>ABOUT NATURAL BIRTHRATES >> Professor U.O. Schmelz - in the Jewish Year Book (1980) published by >>Hebrew University - enumerates the increase in the number of Jews in >>13 countries between 1959 and 1975. With the exception of Israel, >>where the increase is 1.7% per year, in the rest of the 12 countries >>named, not even the 1% birthrate is reached. If we consider the >>highest percentage of 1% increase, then within 17 years the number of >>Jewish population of the world is supposed to be increased by >>1,870,000 [from a base of 11 million] and not more than 4 million. > I've given Matt Giwer a good long time to correct your computation >error above, Actually I had missed it. However I did comment twice upon the more robust posting upon growth rates that, extended to 1940, resulted in 12 million European Jews. And with that ended the "I lost 137 relatives" line by noting that at most AS I HAD PREVIOUSLY POSITED noe more than half died in the strange event that it was all true. Do you have a problem with either? I did not notice you commenting upon the 12 v 6 million comments I made. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:35 PDT 1996 Article: 73231 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!newsgate.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: conundrum Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:10:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 53 Message-ID: <53ks05$bs@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:39:06 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: ># When I find out who is making the harrassing phone calls, >Were you not a proven pathological liar, I would have considered >the possibility that you're telling the truth. But frankly, I >don't believe anyone is making such calls. Too bad they have been found, the three jews who have been behind this. You have read the post, have you not? Internic does not lie. ># I will make him wish he were dead even to the point of making him ># dead. But that would be an accident, a long lived blind cripple ># is my true objective. >How about forcing him to read through your web page? That's even >worse. Folks, anyone remember that scene in "Clockwork Orange" when >they tie the guy to a chair, force his eyes open, and show him >all those films? Perhaps old Matty has such a chair in front of >his PC... the horror!! :-) How about I have their names? ># http://www.webcom.com/ezundel >You admire and support a madman who claims the Nazi leadership >fled the collapsing Reich and flew into the inner earth, via >a hole in the South-Pole, using "secret UFO's". Do you think >this may result in people doubting other claims you make? Whatever I might admire, it certainly beats admiring the murderous jews who have ruled Israel over the decades. Zundel never murder anyone. The list of murders who have rules Israel is all inclusive. Everyone of them has murdered personally and as an elected leader save the present one. At least the Germans had a weak constitution that permitted the Nazis to declare national emergency and stay in power forever. The Israelis have elected murdering terrorists from the first election. Given a nutcase or a series of murderers I will take the former any day. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:36 PDT 1996 Article: 73233 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsgate.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics Subject: Re: Who Flys, Who Doesn't - U.S. Airlines/Israel Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:45:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 60 Message-ID: <53ku1q$c5s@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <326e1af3.9691406@199.0.216.204> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73233 alt.conspiracy:97874 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:52:28 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > > A few weeks ago the "Spotlight" newspaper published an article >citing proposed security measures at U.S. airports. The article >related how a Jew from Israel flew in to act as an advisor. > His suggestion was to have a data base with a list of names of >those suspected of being terrorists or possible terrorist, and barring >them from taking flights. > Today, Oct. 10, 1996, New York Times, > "Clinton Signs Wide-Ranging Measure on Airport Security" > In addition to other measures cited, the Times says; > "The bill also authorizes augmenting existing airline computer >systems with so-called passenger profiling capacity, so that airlines >could compare information in their computers -- names, addresses, >travel histories and the like -- with existing government lists of >suspected terrorists or terrorists traits to single out passengers for >extra security." > And who should we assume is and has been feeding this government >computer base with the names of people with "terrorist traits"? > The ADL, The Simon Wiesenthal Center, The World Jewish Congress, >Mossad, and well ... all the rest. > First the special singling out for extra security checks, and >then, once that settles in, the outright banning of anyone on the list >to even travel at all. If I may beg your indulgance not to generate email ... The Flt 800 incident generated this legislation. 1) We have no idea what brought down that flight 2) We have exactly two profiles of people who have brought bombs on board to blown themselves up in flight in the history of flight 3) The profile collection proposed is not relevant to Flt 800. But, yes, you are correct in part, the politically correct wildly liberal establishment is at it again. Liberty is good for everyone as long as it is moderated liberty. We have no reason to want "jewish" moderators in control as they would bend everything to Israel and the Marxism of the Israeli mentality. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:37 PDT 1996 Article: 73234 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power Subject: Re: Giwer's syndrome - Foot *in* mouth disease Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:50:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 71 Message-ID: <53kubb$c5s@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53jg4f$3mn@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73234 alt.politics.nationalism.white:32627 alt.politics.white-power:46219 On 10 Oct 1996 19:43:27 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >> And what does it mean that Nizkor carries the same photos and that they >>were originally released by the CIA? > Let's see - the camps were liberated in 1945 and the photos were >released by an organisation that wasn't formed until 1947, when Truman signed >the National Security Act. I knew the CIA was sneaky, but I didn't realise that >they had invented time travel! >> Fact of life, boy. Get used to it. > Facts aren't your strong point, are they, Matt? > Derek >Read the information the Giwer-troll fears: Whois Ken McVay? === McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA 462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8 CA 1-604-382-0615 Record last updated on 18-Jul-96. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli intelligence. === McVay, Ken (KM214) 1B Systems Management Limited 5-1601 Bowen Road Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7 CA (604) 758-2499 kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA Record last updated on 02-Apr-96. Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information. All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:37 PDT 1996 Article: 73237 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsgate.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: conundrum Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:19:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 53 Message-ID: <53ksgm$3l5@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:23:44 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote: >In article <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Holohuggers claim there is no holohugger making harrassing phone >calls to >> me and my family. If they are correct then the following is false. >> >"You and your family"? > >Are you USING your family, Mr. Giwer? I am stating a fact. I am not stating a lie that an autistic child can be "offended" by what is posted here. An autistic does not have the wits to know what jewish is in the first place, much less the harder parts of it. On the other hand my son knows how to bring down a world of internet hurt on these three and idirect. You touch-feely sugarly belief your son really has worth is rather a testiment to the love of a parent than to any worth you son might have. And do not forget to bring up the currently popular example. After decades of every expensive help on female autistic wrote enough to lend here name to a ghost written and heavily editted book. Amazing after centuries of experience with autism, this is the only success. And that after the recent fraud of guiding the hand over the keyboard so they can type out their message. I presume you guide his hand also. You are truly an idiot. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:38 PDT 1996 Article: 73243 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: lyrical Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:19:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <53l3ho$i3b@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Where have all the ashes gone Long time passing Where have all the ashes gone Long time ago We've and eaten them Every one Long time ago ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:39 PDT 1996 Article: 73246 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: HOLO-HOAX DESTROYED FROM THE AIR!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:30:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <53l478$c3t@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <52t8jn$bs9@infinity.c2.net> <52vcuk$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <325a38e3.1075541@news.sure.net> <32581b88.88044@news.sure.net> <53dr74$sd9@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53eat3$bm1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <325AD3E4.5DAF@rio.com> <325c8606.2710274@news.sure.net> <53gpo4$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53i5d1$889@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53k7rk$a83@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53kitm$iqs@news1.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73246 alt.politics.nationalism.white:32632 alt.politics.white-power:46225 alt.skinheads:39355 On Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:47:11 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:21:51 -0700, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. >>Gandhi) wrote: >>>In article <53i5d1$889@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >>>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>> And what does it mean that Nizkor carries the same photos and that they >>>> were originally released by the CIA? >>>> >>>> Fact of life, boy. Get used to it. >>>Well obviously it means that Nizkor is run by the DOD, or specifically, the >>>cat of the sister of the guy who ingers 1B Systems from the Milnet >>>database. >>>By the way, you're a troll: >>> "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. >>> That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the >>> idiocies of the holohuggers. I will post just enough to you >>> folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time >>> wasted. I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish." >>> - Giwer, Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> >>>Of course it gets worse - not only are you a troll, but you are a troll who >>>resorts to continual lies, harassment, threats, and general prevarication >>>in an attempt to deny what you know to be truth - you, little man, are >>>completely devoid of anything resembling decency, morality, and integrity. >>>For confirmation and reference, please examine the copious documentation >>>available at >> And you support Marduk's death threats? Why would you you support those >>idirect folks? Just because they are jews? >Who is Marduk, besides a Babylonian God and the prototype for >Mordechai, from Megillat Ruth? The people I have posted. Did you miss it or should I post it again? ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:39 PDT 1996 Article: 73247 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Makes Another Unsubstantiated Charge Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:29:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 62 Message-ID: <53l45h$c3t@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53k7rk$a83@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53kavt$ab4@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 11 Oct 1996 02:21:49 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) a/k/a "The Criminal" writes: > Rajiv Ghandi hit the nail on the head when he wrote: >> >Of course it gets worse - not only are you a troll, but you are a troll who >> >resorts to continual lies, harassment, threats, and general prevarication >> >in an attempt to deny what you know to be truth - you, little man, are >> >completely devoid of anything resembling decency, morality, and integrity. >> >> >For confirmation and reference, please examine the copious documentation >> >available at > >> And you support Marduk's death threats? Why would you you support >those >> idirect folks? Just because they are jews? > To date no proof of "death threats" from "Marduk" has been posted here >nor do his posts make such statements. On the other hand, those of the Criminal >Giwer are here. Here is not what matters, little shit. The Jews who have been doing it is what matters. > Like many other lawbreakers, the Criminal Giwer is attempting to avert >attention from his own hate crimes and criminal harassment of those who disagree >with him. > And the number of "revisionists" who have publically objected to these >tactics is: > Zilch. > Draw your own conclusions. By the evidence here, jews are lying scum of the earth. They conspire, they threaten, they harrass, they hang together by virtue of being jewish. Scum like YFE defend their fellow jewish scum only because they are fellow jews. Jews here, on this conference are scum. No human jew would participate in the terrorist tactics of the holohuggers on this conference. It is the professional victim jews who hand out here. They know no law or equity or justice. They are the kind of animals who say that a thousand Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail. As is YFE. A thousand YFEs are not worth one innocent Palestinian child deliberately shelled to death by IDF artillery by Israeli Jews. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:40 PDT 1996 Article: 73248 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:34:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <53l4ee$c3t@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53fj1k$o4r@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53jv2d$7de@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 10 Oct 1996 22:58:21 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: >> On 8 Oct 1996 22:28:40 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> >> You mean you are still holding to your position that they all had their >> >> attorneys present during all questioning? > >> > Liar. I have never stated that. > >> I thought you stated the accused were given fair trials? What that >someone >> else? > Liar. In case you were too drunk to notice we are talking about the >Malmedy trials. I have posted specific statements and government investigations >that indicate that there were irregularities at those trials. Gee, and I was talking about Nuremberg, which you also swore on your oath as an honorable man was a fair trial under the rules of US law. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:41 PDT 1996 Article: 73249 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Matt Giwer of Florida is a Nazi Sympathizer; give him a ring and tell him! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:52:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 47 Message-ID: <53l5gb$hqc@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53bdoh$9r3@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53dv2v$ru6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <53ehbr$14n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53f86b$f2n@news1.panix.com> <325BA0AB.7F02@ccnis.net> <32607c75.32125138@news.sure.net> <53kags$h69@news1.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:32634 alt.revisionism:73249 On Fri, 11 Oct 1996 04:23:49 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >Is the air pollution in El Toro getting to your brain, Dipper? >A Nazi is an antisemitic fascist, simply put. >You're one. >Giwer's one. In fact. as I was attacked first, then simply by temprament, I would return the favor a thousand fold until there is an apology. I retract that, a million fold until I am begged to stop. I questioned a simple issue and I was libeled in blood by jews. They understand what they did. I return the favor. The Jew Terrorists have no idea who the libeled. The Jews at Internet Direct (idirect) have no idea who they libeled. And of course they are all correct. I am an impotent, drunken social leech in a rented trailer in Tampa as they have said just playing games with the keyboard as they have said so they have nothing to fear in any manner. I agree with them. They are safe as are all of their collaborators. There is nothing I can do to them. I faked it all. All of the above is a lie. Play with it. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:42 PDT 1996 Article: 73250 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Pathological Liar Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:05:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <53l69s$lfl@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53fnf2$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53gm5k$og0@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53ia5r$5k9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:32:24 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) writes: ># We are stlll into the 80,000 (eighty thousand) people that ># were "burned or gassed to death in a single night." Not ># 800 and not 8000 but 80,000 and all in a single night. >Your problem is that the witness never claimed that. >You are a liar, who posted distorted testimony. Distorted >intentionally in order to make the witness appear unreliable. Good sir, I have no problem other than dealing with someone who continues to lie in support of their victim status thus excusing all of their failures in life. >The witness who is misquoted here is Dr. Bendel. He testified >about Auschwitz, not Belsen (that's lie number 1 by Giwer >regarding his testimony). Also, he said that the 80,000 >Jews of the Lodz Ghetto were murdered during 45 days, not >one night (see Pressac's book, p. 471). That's lie number >2 by Giwer regarding his testimony. >Face it: you're a liar, who posted testimony which does not >exist. There's no reason for anyone to believe anything >you claim. Rather than play your game I will observe you are a professional jew victim as well as a traitor. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:43 PDT 1996 Article: 73254 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ostrow-Lubelski: To Remember and to Tell Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:51:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <53l8vk$3ek@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53l2bl$d1r@viper.txdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 11 Oct 1996 09:00:37 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: holocaust/poland Ostrow.05 >Last-modified: 1993/03/27 >Transcription: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca Two interesting things here First, despite the LYING holohuggers here, McVay again posts from oneb (1B) systems, a DOD organization and for its second feat, it pretends to be Amercican rather than Canadian. So again we have McVay lying and all of those claiming I have the wrong McVay and that is he not in the employ of the CIA as liars proven by McVay himself. It is this kind of sloppiness and failur to pay attention to detail that gets people killed in the real world. In the internet world is just demonstrates that holohuggers are liars and that their cover is really too stupid to take care of them. But then, this is the stupid McVay that has such a following. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side http://www.air-photo.com/ what was really there htte://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins/html ADELAIDE From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:44 PDT 1996 Article: 73257 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen: OSR-USSR-#24 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:04:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 67 Message-ID: <53kv4v$i3b@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53jlpi$cs@viper.txdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Thank you for the clear forgery. On 10 Oct 1996 20:20:01 GMT, klewis@veritas.nizkor.org (Ken Lewis) wrote: >The Chief of the Security Police Berlin, July 26, 1941 > and the SD > 41 copies > --------- > (29th copy) >OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No. 34 >............ >Einsatzgruppe B: >Location: Orsha >Reports: >Einsatzkommando 9 is in Vileyka and Molodencho, though a rear >Kommando is still in Vilnius. Only the Soviet Union considered Vilnius to be part of the Soviet Union at the time of this report. Einsatzkommando 8 is in Minsk, with >detachments in Borisov and Slutsk. Detachment Bonifer has taken over >the task of the security police in Baranoviche since July 24, 1941. >Sonder Kommando 7 reports from Vitebsk: >Before the occupation there was a commissar for public health at >Vitebsk; subordinated to him were the managers of the health >insurance offices, mostly Jews. The newly appointed physician, Dr. >Muraschki, states that prior to this there were 200 physicians; at >present only 40 among them are Jews. There are four hospitals, four >clinics, and a medical college. Clinics formerly did not take in >sick persons. The army took over 3 hospitals. The municipality now >has its hospital with 40 beds, a medical college with 500 beds, and >clinics. The chief of the clinics, Dr. Kuprevyev, is an optometrist. >Allegedly epidemics have not occurred recently. The most frequent >diseases are tuberculosis and typhus. For tuberculosis, one hospital >with 40 beds available is presently occupied by 12 patients. >The sewer system is still operating and relatively intact. >Waterworks are partly in operation again. Water supply locations are >installed within the city; water, however, must be boiled. So far, >about 3000 Jews are registered by the appointed Jewish Council. >Badges for Jews introduced. At present they are being employed with >clearing rubble. For deterrence 27 Jews who had not come to work >were publicly shot in the streets. (Arad, 51) > Work Cited >Arad, Yitzak, Shmuel Krakowski and Shmuel Spector, Editors. The >Einsatzgruppen Reports. New York: Holocaust Library, 1989. >-- >The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource >http://www.nizkor.org/ klewis@veritas.nizkor.org ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:44 PDT 1996 Article: 73258 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: the (snip) game Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:08:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 11 Message-ID: <53l9uk$866@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Not a problem here folks but I will consider the (snip) game the same as the repetition of any mantra. ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side http://www.air-photo.com/ what was really there htte://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins/html ADELAIDE From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:45 PDT 1996 Article: 73290 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Lies Again Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:12:04 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <53kagv$997@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <53a9uq$n31@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53b0mn$2fm@news.enter.net> <53chc9$jv6@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53gl9a$no2@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <53i63n$c4o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 7.tampa-2.fl.dial-access.att.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:22:15 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote: >In article <53i63n$c4o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >[Mr. Giwer's crap snipped] > >Once again, Mr. 163 IQ shows his inability to locate something as simple as >"HTML Markdown." And are you a mere genius who can not use a browser? ===== Read the information holohuggers fear http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side From mgiwer@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:46 PDT 1996 Article: 73297 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:43:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <53kccj$kf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> References: <3255085f.47673@news.demon.co.uk> <3258dcd4.507850@news.demon.co.uk> <326f2206.16225888@199.0.216.204> <325bdfb9.43