The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1996/giwer.0796


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:07 PDT 1996
Article: 47237 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Whines Again
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:59:02 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In <4qd875$n56@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>	Holohugger is a legitimate acronym  [...]

>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) corrected him:

>	One wonders when we are due to be enlightened as to the
>	expansion of each letter of the word "holohugger".  Then again,
>	I suppose if one were to find the mythical dictionary containing
>	the definition of "paupacy", one would no doubt find that the
>	word "acronym" has a completely different meaning to that which
>	all reasonable people understand.

>In article <4qgdge$b62@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com shows exactly what happens when anyone corrects
>his mistakes:

>	If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
>	fatbroad.  

>	The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know
>	it.  You have no other qualifications.  

>	You contribute nothing.

>	You accept only sperm from a thing.

>And he has the nerve to claim that he only indulges in name-calling
>because he has been called names himself!

	Fact is that I did not start it.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:08 PDT 1996
Article: 47242 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:38:29 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>M. Giwer wrote:

>> Unfortunately, it is in the too hard category.  The right way to do it
>>is to measure it.  It isn't the kind of thing I would do at home.

>Some time ago there was extended discussion of how hard it would be to do
>an experiment to determine HCN evaporation rates.  There are three
>difficulties in doing this, none of them really major:

>(1)  Obtain some pure HCN (or stabilized, with 1% or so additive to
>prevent polymerization explosions).

>(2)  Conduct the experiment safely.

>(3)  Monitor diffusion accurately if done in a known volume chamber.

>As a starting point, I would suggest placing a measured amount of HCN
>liquid in a shallow dish whose area has been measured, doing so in some
>remote location where the fumes will dissipate harmlessly (downwind!). 
>Then simply stand upwind and measure the time it takes to evaporate,
>noting of course the ambient temperature, and perhaps measuring the
>temperature of the HCN with a simple Fluke thermocouple sensor since it
>will tend to cool as evaporation takes place.

	This part can be calculated.  

>The next phase would consist of making ersatz Zyklon with readily
>available diatomaceous earth pellets and repeating the experiment with the
> container placed on top of a digital scale in order to monitor weight
>loss and thereby evaporation.  You would put a known amount of HCN in the
>pellets, and it wouldn't matter whether or not the HCN content was
>maximized since the intent is to measure rate.

>It gets harder to do this in a known volume (to include diffusion),
>primarily because of the need to use some moderately expensive
>concentration monitoring instruments and sensors at several locations
>within the chamber.  And to construct a chamber, for that matter.  Quite
>doable though, and for less than $5,000 according to my calculations. 
>Which could be the biggest problem of all.  Anybody got 5 grand laying
>around they want to donate? :-)

	Perhaps rather hiring a lab to do it?  They would have the equipment and
the safety procedures in place plus access to the HCN.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:09 PDT 1996
Article: 47246 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel's crocodile tears
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:41:24 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:19:48 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>[re: the Zuendel trials

>>>>	It reads to me like the issue is the finding of the jury not the death
>>>>penalty.

>>>That is precisely right. Two juries found that he knowingly published
>>>lies - in my book, that makes him a liar :-)

>>	You need to learn something, unless Canadian juries are different.

>>	The state of mind can not be determined by a jury.  

>O, fer sure! That's why juries can never find anyone not guilty by
>reason of insanity. That's why murder prosecutions only ever have to
>establish means and opportunity and never motive.

	One, not too many states have that plea.  Two, they judge what the
experts say about the person, not the person. Three, if the jury did
they would not need the experts.  

>>	They judged self avowed experts not the evidence.  

>Empty assertion.

	You appear to have  never paid attention to such a trial.  

>>	No primary evidence was presented.  

>Ignorant assertion. Evidence was presented which convinced the jury
>that Zuendel was a liar.

	Had violated that law because the experts convinced them of something.
Certainly there is no way said experts could have demonstrated
"knowingly" published false news without introducing evidence of his
prior knowledge of that truth.  That was not done.  

>>	Of course no one accused Canada of having justice.  

>Flame bait.

	So?  It is only Canada.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:10 PDT 1996
Article: 47255 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:15:23 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>>  	What about the ADL rabbi who said,  "Especially after the
>>  Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>>  Jews". Some of these Christians are just little kids. 
>>  
>>  	Evil little Christian Children.

>	The answer is a simple one although a hate filled bigot like you might not 
>understand it.  Anti-Semitism is taught.  

	Is?  You do have some present tense examples, do you not?  Of course
not.  

One of the institutions that taught is has 
>been the Christian churches.  One of the prime teachers over the years has been 
>the Catholic church.  This is not my opinion, it is the result of debates within the 
>Catholic church initiated by Pope John XXIII and accepted by subsequent pontiffs 
>including the present one.

	And that was SOLEY over the common teaching of a distortion of dogma.
The details of it would be beyond you.  The closest you might be able to
grasp is, is there guilt for doing what is required?  

>	In the United States, the teaching of anti-Semitism was largely a function 
>of religion (ever hear of Father Coughlin?).  

	Ranks right up there with Cotton Mather and just as dead.  So much for
"is" taught.  

I realize that a jerk like you might find 
>this hard to understand, but Jews don't particularly appreciate a lying, cowardly 
>hate-monger like you wholesaling your garbage.

	Then you folks should have chosen another country to come to.  But then
we do have a tradition of taking in starving, huddled masses.  

>	It is not all religion or even all religious people.  To be blunt L'il Tommy I 
>grew up in neighborhood that was half-Catholic and went to a Catholic university 
>(they gave me a full scholarship).  

	Now that is very solid proof of present day anti-semitism being taught
by the RC church.  What did they do?  Make you wear a tag saying TOKEN
on it?  

In all that time I can never recall meeting as 
>blatent a Jew-hater as you.

	But I am certain you met many at the university that gave you a full
scholarship.  

>	So there is a real question, L'il Tommy:  where did you learn your hate?

	Are you suggesting he should become a Catholic in order to lose it?  

>	And, you gutless chunk of putrid malice, please don't even entertain 
>doubts for a nanosecond.  You are an anti-Semite.  Period.

	But then I fail to see how pointing out that a Rebbe equates Christians
with Nazis is a matter of hate.  There can be no other basis for his pea
brained statement than that assumption.  

	Can you say, bigot?  Can you say, hatemonger?  Can you say, Jewish,
bigotted hatemonger?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:11 PDT 1996
Article: 47257 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:11:38 GMT
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>[A user somewhere had rudely interrupted]

>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele) wrote:

>>>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts with
>>>quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie to forbid
>>>him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the point that I do not
>>>open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure that it is again one
>>>of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing so, I was quite interested
>>>in his contributions. But now... I wonder whether other people have come too
>>>to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make everybody ignore him?

>[snip]

>Carry on folks.


>ZOGBOT

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

FATBOT



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:11 PDT 1996
Article: 47264 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Sobran - Israel's "Amen Corner" OWNS Press, White House, Congress
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:49:47 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>I wrote:
>>
>>	William F. Buckley himself openly identified Mr. Sobran as an 
>>	anti-Semite after years of friendship and collaboration. 
>>
>>In article <4qhq7f$d4i@byatt.alaska.net>,
>>Henry Ayre (henri@alaska.net) whines:
>>
>>	Yes, one's affiliations and loyalties are fragile and up for
>>	instant review when one hobnobs with the emotionally unstable.
>>
>>So, Mr. Ayre thinks that William F. Buckley is "emotionally unstable!"
>>It is easy for him to make such a claim as he is just as ignorant of
>>psychology as he is of history.
>>
>>
>>	Joseph Sobran's most enduring and enlightening statement will
>>	certainly be, "An anti-Semite is a person hated by the Jews." 
>>
>>I think that when a person hates Jews, it is only fair if Jews are
>>allowed to hate him back!
>>
>>But that does not explain why non-Jews like William Buckley agree that
>>Sobran hates Jews.
>>
>>
>>	And we always thought it was the reverse!  H. Ayre.
>>
>>"...we have always thought..."  Mr. Ayre's posts have always
>>demonstrated that he cannot think at all!
>>
>>--
>>Harry Katz

>	William F. Buckley (Billy the Buckler) once wrote nasty things
>that Pat Buchanan was "anti-Semitic". Buchanan being the one who
>applied the "Amen corner" to the subject of Israel. 

	As a matter of interest in preserving the facts, the folks who try to
use that against him convert it to a declarative sentence when he was
asking a question as in "Who but Israel and then amen corner is calling
for war against Iraq?"  

	But then we know from Sobran's recounting of statements that can be made
in Israel about Israeli control of the US media can not be made here
without being called antisemitic at best.  

As far as I know
>Buckley never offered any proof. Does he offer any proof Sobrans is?
>Can you Mr.Katz, make a case that either is "anti-Semitic"? Barring
>this, we have to assume that anyone whosoever dubs someone as
>"anti-Semitic" finds that to be sufficient in itself and would expect
>anyone else to follow. 

	A statement that is true by inspection.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:12 PDT 1996
Article: 47268 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:37:35 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>>  	Poor me.  I just don't have the access to a mess of psyrinks to poll on
>>  the subject.  Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>>  people you folks can get to in an instant?  

>	Consider using a better brand of deodorant.

	Consider reviewing the Pennsylvania Bar ethical standards.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:13 PDT 1996
Article: 47269 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'You see, they are bringing children now'
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:07:07 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article ,
>Marty Kelley  wrote:

>[snip]

>> What is unexplainable about heat being given off when a room full of 
>> just-killed people is opened?  Note that Boeck does _not_ say that the 
>> heat was given off by the HCN gass; rather, it's reasonable to infer that 
>> the heat was from the victims' bodies.

>According to Tauber, in L.Keller 1 of Krema II:

>"...We found heaps of naked bodies, doubled up. They were pinkish, and in
>places red. Some were covered with greenish marks and saliva ran from
>their mouths. Others were bleeding from the nose. There was excrement on
>many of them I remember that a great many had their eyes open and were
>hanging on to one another The bodies were most crushed around the door. By
>contrast, there were less around the wire mesh columns. ^The location of
>the bodies indicated that people had tried to get away from the columns
>and get to the door. It was very hot in the gas chamber and so suffocating
>as to be unbearable..." (_Technique_. p.489.)

>This gassing of 1,526 (out of 2,000) Jews probably took place on March 14,
>1943 (Ibid.). L.Keller 1 had an area of 210 sq m (504 cu m). I would
>imagine packing 1,526 victims into this space (~7.3 victims/sq m [~3 cu
>m/victim]) 

	0.33 M^3/fantasy

could cause the gas chamber to get hot and stuffy. Especially
>if the SS waited a bit before they gassed them. 

	Rather your "math" indicates the absudity of the story.  Ignoring for
the moment that 7.3/M^2 is close enough to impossible to be impossible,
we note the story requires them to have moved to try to get away from
the columns.  Even though packed so closely they could not have moved
they did move.  

	Even though packed so closely it is unclear how they knew what to move
away from or how, they did.  

	You would think no one had ever been in a packed elevator in their
lives.  

150 lbs /2.2 = 68 kg = 68 liters = 68,000 cc = 
(68,000 cm^3)^ 1/3 = 40 cm cube (excluding 2 liters of lung volume)  
=15.7 inch cube

504 M^3 /1526 = 0.33 M^3 = 69 cm cube

	0.58 ratio

	Quite a packing factor there even as a liquid.  Of course if everyone
assumes fetal position while they are stacked up ...

	I am certainly the good Dr. Keren can make a few comments upon such a
packing factor ... without handwaving even if he chooses to.  But he
will not do so with standing people.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:14 PDT 1996
Article: 47273 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Gas Chamber at Dachau
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:38:34 GMT
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <31d3dfce.467741@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
>aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:


>>	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>>older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
>>accounts that are currently written in stone.

>>	Richard Widmann is this weeks choice for the 'Tom Moran
>>Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithificationer Award'.

>

	It can be treated.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:14 PDT 1996
Article: 47274 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:35:44 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>>
>>>>>Matt, the holocaust is historical fact; just because it gives your
>>>>>political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>>>>>happened will make it so. 
>>
>>There is no such thing as historical 'fact'.

>Andrew Johnson was the 17th president of the United States is an
>historical fact.

	And Andrew Jackson was the 7th president.  Have you ever considered the
coincidence?  









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:15 PDT 1996
Article: 47280 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Monty Python strikes again
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:51:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <31C88353.27E4@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> 
>> >Wouldnm't it scan better as "I'm a Giwer troll and I'm a jerk..."
>> >
>> >Otherwise, ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!!!!! A real keeper!
>> >
>> >Hugs,
>> >Sara
>> 
>> >--
>> >The only power available to you lies in your submission.
>> >    Pete Townshend
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: When I said it

>blah blah blah

>Now now, Matt.  No need to be jealous.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:16 PDT 1996
Article: 47291 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:07:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4r5c5v$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes...
>>>>In article <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>>>>McFee) writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>And I will add, for the 5th time, and I will note that Giwer has *never*
>>>>>denied it, even back where he had the courage to respond to my posts
>>>>other
>>>>>than by stupid sigs, that the so-called harassment of Giwer's family and
>>>>>son, was a concoction on *his* part.  In other words, he lied through his
>>>>>teeth.  (Oh yes--I still have the proof.)
>>>> 
>>>>Sorry to disappoint you Gord, but I have received e-mails from individuals
>>>>other than Giwer confirming that his son was harrassed by Marduk.  Since I
>>>>keep the source and verbatim content of e-mails private, I cannot say
>>>>more.
>> 
>>>    1. Did we ever figure out who Marduk is?
>> 
>>	You in particular encouraged the holohugging pig.  

>    Provide the post, please.

>>>    2. Did you notice that it was *one* letter than Giwer Jr. received
>>>    (assuming it was not forged in house as has been suggested but no
>>>    evidence has been presented for) and that every poster in this
>>>    newsgroup sans Giwer who commented on the mailing immediately denounced
>>>    it.
>> 
>>	Who said "ONE" and how did you know that?  I never posted that.  It is
>>very curious that you would claim knowledge of details that I did not
>>post.  May I ask how you know these details?  

>    OK, I admit it.  I'm Gord McFee...

>>	Of course I can not ask that question.  It is improper or some such.  
>> 
>>>    So, if you consider one letter to Giwer Jr. to be harassment, 
>> 
>>	Just how did you know there was only one without being a participant in
>>it?  What is your point in making this all up?  BTW:  As we all know he
>>is not a Jr.  So why do you make this up?

>    Matt Giwer the father
>    Matt Giwer the son

>    It is a reasonable shorthand to call him Junior.  I have no idea what
>    either's middle names are (nor do I really care.)  

>>then
>>>    maybe he was harassed.  If you agree with Giwer's assertion that that
>>>    letter stains all of the "holohuggers" in this newsgroup then you would
>>>    be as looney as he is.
>> 
>>	Someone just might be suspicious with your knowledge of what was never
>>posted but then that would be antisemitic or some such, would it not?  

>    Evidence that "he" is looney.  So Ehrlich, what do you think?

>>>    I suspect that you are not looney and are open to reason.
>> 
>>	I know your intimate knowledge of the exact events makes you complicite
>>in it.  

>    Giwer went this route with McFee once.  All it did was make Giwer look
>    stupid.  One has to wonder why he is going this route again...

>    /re-enter killfile mode  {sheesh}

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:17 PDT 1996
Article: 47292 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:31:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qsq14$8m3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>
>>In article <31d0ab6c.11914697@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
>>Curtis) writes:

>>>>family harrassed through this board.  It is a disgrace.
>>>
>>>There is NO ONE I'm aware of who has harrassed your family on this
>>>board. Oh! You learned this game from Giwer, eh, Ehrlich606?
>>>
>>>

>>Giwer's family _was_ harrassed.

>Indeed.  By Giwer himself.

>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                          
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47295 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:13:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:
>> 
>> >I have one final question for the revisionists and frankly one which was
>> >prompted by something which I came accross on the Zundelsite.  It was an
>> >explanation of "What is National Socialism".  A similar explanation
>> >appears in the Stromfront Website.  Mr Zundel, for example,  claims to be
>> >a National Socialist and many revisionists on this page have espoused
>> >admiration for Hitler.
>> 
>> >Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>> >it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>> >Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle.  In
>> >this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>> >Socialist philosophy, is the highest
>> >embodiment of the human form, and at the other end is the Jewish race.  A
>> >number of lesser races are in between.
>> 
>>         You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>> further.
>> 
>>         I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>> everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.

>I AM RIGHT!  I AM GIWER!  Proof is irrelevant.  Documentation is irrelevant.
>Reasons are irrelevant.  You will be a-spam-inated.

	What you have attempted to do is set up a link between me and Stormfront
and then attack what Stormfront says as though I were saying it.  

	As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
work.  It is race neutral.  

	Now just what is it you think you are doing save attacking your own
strawman?   





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47299 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:50:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qm8u1$9c6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:


>>      "Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish 
>>      reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus 
>>      implying that we is observant?" (Matt Giwer)

>Mr. McVay, I am shocked.  Here you are posting "raw" Giwerian without the
>obligatory translation.  Shame!  Do you really think everyone in this
>newsgroup understands Giwerian-Trollish as well as you do?  Have a heart,
>sir!



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                                    
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:19 PDT 1996
Article: 47301 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:29:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>  mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>  >I don't understand what "physical evidence" means to "revisionists".
>>  
>>  	It does not mean testimony.  It that any better?  

>	But, given your own statements that does not cover the territory.  You 
>have told us that some poor German soldier that just happened to murder American 
>soldiers in cold blood was beaten with rifle butts (note plural), pistol butts (note 
>plural), and pistol barrels (note plural).  Reports of he medical examinations of the 
>person (which most people I know consider fairly convincing evidence) showed 
>that the person sustained no injuries,

>	`All you have posted is the unsworn statement of that nazi.  What 
>"physical evidence"  please be specific.  Demonstrate what the reliable evidence 
>was for your assertion.

	I will completely agree that my source of this is valueless and that
your sources for the gassing are valueless.  

	What do you think you are accomplishing with this line of attack?


	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47302 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:22:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) wrote:

>In article <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
>>To be more precise, what I meant here was this: because of its arguable
>>roots in neo_Nazism, the attitude of people towards revisionism is that to
>>pursue it is to pursue a neo_Nazi agenda.  Obviously, I don't think that
>>is so.  When I reference *death* or *fear* in that regard, I mean the
>>attitude, which I feel lies under the surface among many, that to endorse
>>a revisionist stance is to set _all_ of us up for a fascist, racist,
>>dictatorship.  I do not believe that.  I cannot accept that.
> 
>Whatever the roots of the revisionist poistion, a revisionist stance must
>make some account of the persistence of belief in the Holocaust (or one
>of its component parts).  It's simply a necessary part of the discourse.  That
>their solution must be in a gigantic conspiracy, or taking the Holocaust on
>as a part of the fundamental ideology of the West, but more specifically, of
>Jews, is an index of their motives.  So when you say:
> 
>>Nor do I think that studying the Holocaust has a whole lot to do with a
>>sense of victimhood, persecution, of someone's Jewishness.  Look at me:
>>[ . . . . ] It is a fascinating area in modern history, period.
> 
>I can't help but feel as if I didn't explain myself well the first time.
>Revisionists, many here on a.r., describe the Holocaust as a psychological
>condition that Jews (or guilt-ridden liberals) have been afflicted themselves
>with.  (And by the way, this masterpiece of slander is implicit in every
>mention of "holohugger"--  no matter what the neologism's etymological root
>is.)

	The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
guilt to explain.  All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.  

	It is not permitted to publically express any questions about the
current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media.  In some
countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.  

	I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
inspection.  

	The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be.  The
"explanations" the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
happening again, are obviously transparent and false.  

	What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done.  Blood
money for Israel is another suggestion.  However at this point the
reasons suggested are speculation.  

	Consider the difference in Russia.  They trot out their war heroes in
November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
year.  But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
war.  

	However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war.  It
is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
the loss of Texas and California.  

	This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature.  As I
have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
day he died.  

	There is something very, very wrong with this behavior.  It needs help,
not encouragement.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47303 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The professor and his eyewitnesses
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:00:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4qpnnd$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31ceacd9.227609@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:

>> tokrse@aol.com (TokRse) wrote:
>> 
>> >I know what the truth-bashers have to say.  They DENY that they ever
>> >claimed that 4,000,000 died at Auschwitz.  Don't you know, they ALWAYS
>> >claimed the number was 3,500,000 - 4,500,000 - Kogon
>> >or was it 1.2 million to 2.5 million- Weiss
>> >or was it 1 to 2.5 million -Encyclopedia Judaica
>> >or was it 2.5 million - yes it must have been 2.5 million - Bauer
>> >no no it was 2 million - Poliakoff, Dawidowicz, Gilbert and Billing 
>> >or was it 1 million, Hilberg and Crankshaw
>> >
>> >no no it is 1,095,190 (surprising no decimals) - Piper
>> >and what of Pressac?
>> 
>>         There are a lot more. Check out "BEHOLD THE LIE" the next time it
>> is posted for a more complete listing, but not the entire account by
>> any means.

>And be sure to check out my follow up repsonse to it as well. (You know,
>the one  where I write: "Behold the Liar - Read a Moranic(tm) re-post by
>Moran!") 

	Another example of the reasoned debate the exterminationists claim they
want to conduct.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 07:19:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>: Considering my years I feel the fields are rather minor accomplishment.

>That's not the issue, in case you hadn't noticed.  This all started when
>you said that Raul Hilberg (who, by the way, is older than you are) was
>unqualified to write a history of the Holocaust because his Ph. D. is in
>Government, not History.   If he's not qualified in history, what makes
>you qualified in chemistry, physiology, law, history, or how to walk and
>chew gum at the same time?

	I said nothing about his qualifications to write history.  I stated that
he was not a historian.  Therefore he does not count on a list of
"historians" who agree on the holocaust gassing.  I also noted that the
chair was a reward for his political astuteness in upholding the legend.
And political astuteness is what one would expect from a person with his
credentials.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:22 PDT 1996
Article: 47307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:08:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
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	Mt. Grynspan, sir. 

	You have read a 10 to 1 ratio saying that I have gotten control of
alt.revisionism and you have read their declaration of defeat.
	
	Now you are the only person I would consider one on one who is here.

	You have also stated you know how to deal with me.

	The following is a challenge.

	DO SO.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:13:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
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Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:




>> [A user somewhere had rudely interrupted]
>>
>> >abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele) wrote:
>>
>> >>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts with
>> >>quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie to forbid
>> >>him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the point that I do not
>> >>open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure that it is again one
>> >>of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing so, I was quite interested
>> >>in his contributions. But now... I wonder whether other people have come too
>> >>to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make everybody ignore him?
>>
>> [snip]
>>


>He does that, and more.  When I first began participating in this NG I
>approached Mr. Giwer with an honest curiosity toward his views, informing
>him fully about my natural bias against those unorthodox.  He responded by
>attacking my character, his only position being that if I did not agree
>with him that I was then decietful, ignorant and unworthy of his attention.

	That of course is a lie that belies your intention in the approach,
dumbbroad.    

>If there are any of you left out there who still cling to the idea that
>Giwer HIMSELF believes that his efforts are intended to correct and redirect
>historical scholarship of the Nazi era, then let me see if this will put
>that notion to rest once and for all (in his own words, of course:)

>>
>> And I have never pretended to participate in the discussion of
>> revising the orthodox view of the holocaust in the manner of a
>> research scholar.
>>

>-Posted by Matt Giwer to alt.revisionism on May 23rd, 1996



>His only intention is to irritate and annoy.  Consider yourself one of his
>many successes.  You're in good company ;-)

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish - Read it and weep.
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:32:25 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qt3vq$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>In article <4qnjt3$e4h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>>>	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story...

>>>As this repetitious nonsense in no way addresses my previous posts,
>>>I take it that Mr. Giwer cannot defend himself from my charges that
>>>he lies and tries to conceal it with name-calling.

>>	The following is no namecalling.  And, as I noted, when I am attacked I
>>will attack your precious holocaust.  If you have  a problem with that,
>>the answer is in your hands.  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>[typical gutless Giwer evasion deleted]


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                               
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:24 PDT 1996
Article: 47319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:46:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4qng0m$mqi@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>writes:

>>e:	Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:36:59 GMT
>>
>>	Revisited shall we say.
>>
>>	I was given the explanation for her being alive to leave Auschwitz
>was
>>that she was 15 and that everyone under that age was exterminated
>>immediately.  Any record of anyone younger than that available?  

>The film of the Auschwitz liberation has a clip showing some babies in
>prams as well as an adorable little boy about two feet tall in prison
>garb.  I saw a TV interview of the guy. He cried a lot.

	I thought the story was nonsense.  Thanks for the backup.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lies and Damn Lies
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:20:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Alexander Baron  writes:

># I have now done further research on this and there were definitely
># human skin artifacts. 

>There you go. Now Giwer has to call Baron a holohugger.

>BTW, Koch went to prison for murdering German inmates, didn't 
>she? Her husband, as I recall, was executed by the SS for theft.


>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:26 PDT 1996
Article: 47336 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:25:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4qr3bh$ig3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:

># It would be interesting to know the source of the "blue cubes" 
># (Erco?). Degesch literature describes only pellets and discs, 
># no cubes, no blue.

>The book often quoted here (by Dr. Gerhard Peters, General Manager
>of Degesch) mentions the Erco carrier (the small cubes), and shows
>a photograph of a Degesch manufactured can with the Erco cubes
>in it (as well as cans with the two other carriers you mentioned).

>What, exactly, do you mean by "Degesch literature"? Are we to
>understand you have studied everything they ever published?

	Degesh publication means exactly that, the publications of Degesh and
nothing else.
	
	Grow up, Danny boy, you have a long way to go.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:26 PDT 1996
Article: 47338 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denier's True Colours
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:30:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qn1kv$r2e@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  said:


>>  I've search 'spam' in my dictionnary, not there... However the best I
>>can unders-
>>  tand his statement, he claim that he will continue to defend himsel as
>>far
>>  as people attack him, and that he can 'get down to cases on his terms',
>>  something I think I understand as 'driving the conference the way he
>>want'.
>>  I never eared this expression before, however isn't Jamie McCarthy who
>>was
>>  refering to alt.revisionism as 'our' conference? (yours)
>>  Yes, he's 'controlling' this newsgroup in a certain sense, due to his
>>large
>>  output. What do you think, that alt.revisionism is your exclusive baby?

>The word "spam" means to flood a newsgroup with dozens of off-topic and
>irrelevant posts each and every day.  That is what Giwer has been doing
>lately, since the idiocy of his arguments has been exposed for all to see. 
>What he of course doesn't realize is that he is a third-string spammer at
>best, many much better ones having occupied this newsgroup in the past,
>until they ran away and hid.

>This has nothing to do with censorship.  It has everything to do with common
>decency, and respecting a Usenet News tradition that has been around for a
>long time.  Neither of these, especially common decency, is known to Giwer.

>[rest deleted]


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                                                                        
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:27 PDT 1996
Article: 47343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:18:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r1ago$g6a@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
>said:

>>>Name one Jewish group attempting to silence Mr. Giwer.  You can't
>>>because no one is trying to silence him.  I suggest you learn the facts
>>>before making knee-jerk PC anti-PC statements.  The new PC seems to be
>>>to accuse anyone who expresses their opposition to bigotry and ignorance
>>>of being PC.  I suggest reading alt.revisionism before jumping to
>>>conclusions.

>>Rich, I suggest adding Ricardo "Autocyberretromoderationbot" Gonzalez to
>>your killfile. 

>Yeah, he's a loon.

>> http://www.paranoia.com/~ricardo/faq.html

>>As for Giwer, he is so obviously an asshole that I encourage him to speak
>>out. Gord controls him, you know.

>I know, I know, but keep it quiet.  :-)


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                       
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47347 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Program
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:21:04 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4r43q6$iqp@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) writes...
>> 
>>McFee = McVay
>>McVay = Finstein
>>Green != Graves
>>Ehrlich != Sommer
>>Ehrlich != Thomas
>>Thomas = Hunt
>>Hunt = Agathist
>>Hunt ?= Smith
>>Ostrov = McCarthy
>>Gannon = Maynard
>>Les's RH = Sylvie
>>Widmann = ?
>>Huber != Huber
>>Morrison = Morriglu_the_Crook_smoking marijuana in Microsoft Basement
>>Morrison != Morris
>>Lewis != McVay
>>Curtis != Stein
>>WASPnot = HistoryNOT
>>WASPnot = Kaus
>>Kaus = WACKYWATCH
>>Greenley != Green

>    You missed a few:

>    McFee ?= Marduk
>    Kelley != Mittleman
>    Kelley != Kelly
>    Moran = Moron
>    Huber = Huber = Huber = Huber = Huber
>    Mortie = Miltie
>    J. McCarthy != T. McCarthy
>    Giwer != genius
>    Al Gentile != fictional
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47348 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Gerstein and reliability of sources
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:25:28 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30  3:28:34 AM CDT 1996
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>Responding to <4ql6m7$cgm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> from 
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com:

>Matt, I'm touched that you went to the trouble of using a new
>user ID to get past my killfile, 

	I am also touched that you are a lying asshole but let us get down to
cases despite you inability to master the killfile like YEF.  

but you're still boring, still
>dishonest, and still stupid, so this one goes into the killfile
>as well.

>Most of your points are pointless and clueless, so dumb that you
>are obviously staying in your customary troll mode, arguing 
>nonsense even you can't believe yourself. No doubt Ehrlich606 
>will find your post incisive and enlightening. I will, however, 
>confine myself to addressing one item.

	You are not bright enough to do so.   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47349 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who controls the troll?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:49:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4qp7b9$pic@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) wrote:

>>In article <4qmt2i$q85@atlas.uniserve.com>, 
>>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>>Amazing isn't it?!  Well, not really.  You see, McFeestein thinks *he*
>>>controls the troll - but the truth is *I* have the supreme power.  Did

>>Oh for Pete's sake! Finstenov controls the troll this week -
>>McFeestein can't get his decoder ring working, so he _can't_
>>control _both_ the troll and Leslie at the same time... I
>>thought we had this straight, Hilary - this week, Finstenov
>>gets the troll, next week Stein gets him, and YOU can have him
>>the following week, and not a moment sooner.

>Aw, gee, Chief you always spoil all my fun!  And it's really not fair
>that I _always_ have to change _my_ schedule just because McFeestein
>can't get his decoder ring working.  He's the one who blows the money
>you send him for lessons!  Why should I have to pay?!  I think this is
>a clearcut case of harrassment. Once or twice, I could overlook - but
>this has been going on for months now.  And I am going to bring this
>up at the next meeting of ZOGWESCAN.  I've read the Riot Act, and I
>have rights, too, you know.

>P.S. pls. fwd to abmg. - I can't get there from here :>)

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

	Another example of the kind of debate the holohuggers want to conduct.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. "
IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47355 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudenko:  Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:29:42 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>
>>In article <4qkvse$rsg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Rudenko is examining Alfred Rosenberg]
>>> 
>>> Rudenko: *Do you admit that Nazi Germany, having prepared and pursued
>war
>>> against the Soviet Union, aimed at plundering the economic riches of
>the
>>> Soviet Union, the extermination and enslavement of her people, and the
>>> disarmament of the country? Answer briefly.*
>>> 
>>> Rosenberg: *No.*
>>> 
>>> Rudenko: *You deny it? All right.  Let us turn to a new document.*
>>> 
>>> source: American Heritage, August 1962, p. 69 (precis of Francis
>Biddle's
>>> memoirs)
>>
>>And? Are you suggesting that the Hitlerites _didn't_ invade the Soviet
>>Union  for the expressed purpose of disarming and plundering the country
>>and killing and enslaving its people? Answer briefly. 
>>
>>
>There are times when the density of your mind is simply amazing.  The
>above exchange is not about giving you an excuse to show off your scanner.
> The above exchange demonstrates (1) Rudenko's incompetence as a
>prosecutor, (2) Rudenko's laughable inability to adjust to something other
>than a show trial, and (3) an example of a stupid question (hint: note how
>it is structured).

>As far as answering briefly is concerned, you might want to take your own
>advice.  Brevity is the soul of wit.

	Not wit, lingerie.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:31 PDT 1996
Article: 47372 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:07:01 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qsqa8$90l@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>
>>In article <4qqen5$4iqe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>>McFee) writes:

>>>All alone in the world.  Despised by all.  No one to bully around. 
>>Bitter
>>>at the past and terrified of the future.  So jealous of "normal" people. 
>>>Knowing that the only ones who accept him are the anonymous Nazi denier
>>>scum.  Hating the real world, where people have at least a shred of
>>humanity
>>>and loathing the fact that he has none.  
>>>
>>>Pathetic beyond words.

>>Get a grip, Gord.

>I *have* a grip, Mr. Ehrlich, a very good grip.  Perhaps you should examine
>the mirror.

>Why have you taken so to defending Giwer?  Surely a man of your wisdom does
>not align himself in Giwer's camp?  Or was Mr. Curtis right about you?


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                              
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47374 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:05:19 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qta1s$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>Nothing, proving my point that I control him and he has lost.

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>said:

>>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>> 
>>>># Relevant, def. supports holohugger PNE fixation.
>>>> 
>>>>No, relevant with regard to the rate of evaporation
>>>>of HCN from Zyklon. Seems your estimate was off by a
>>>>factor of 16 or so.

>>>About the same factor by which he has over-estimated his IQ, wouldn't you
>>>say?

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                          
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists...
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:14:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >This 
>> >message indicates that you believe Mr. McCarthy has personally harrassed 
>> >your family.  Please post proof or retract this claim.
>>
>> Everything was posted at the time it happened.

>In other words, he has no proof.

>If he did, he'd post DejaNews URLs.

	It happened, child.  It was discussed here at the time.  The harrassment
was encouraged by the holohuggers.  You encouraged it.  

>> There were also numerous
>> posts on the order of "it couldn't happen to a nicer guy" in
>> alt.revisionism.   There is no question of that.  

>In other words, failing to sympathize with Giwer (awwwww, poor baby,
>someone flamed his son in e-mail) makes us "complicite" in the crime
>(to use his word: <4r5c5v$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>).

	I state what happened only to point out what kind of people holohuggers
really are.  They are very petty and vindictive people.  

>> It is what holohuggers are like.  Wannabe JDL terrorists.

>This quote seems apropos:

>   [Matt Giwer's] terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not
>   personalities.  I'd support that aim regardless of who was
>   promoting it.
>   
>   What [Giwer] and others are demanding, not asking for, is a forum
>   where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.
>   
>      - DvdThomas@aol.com, June 23rd, 1996

>But then, I'm a wannabe JDL terrorist, so what do I know.

	At least you agree the JDL is a terrorist organization.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:01:28 GMT
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alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg] [Sat 29 Jun 96
>16:48][Sun 30 Jun 96 11:32][0]*>

> mnc> claim that their existence was challenged.  Of course, if people
> mnc> at that level had been interested in the "only following orders"
> mnc> defense they would have claimed an order from Hitler himself,
> mnc> that very curious by its absense order.

> mnc>     I am surprised to see you playing the game of trying to
> mnc> cover the issue with a holohugger type post.

>I'd like to pay more than passing attention to your posting but I
>really *AM* up to my yin-yan in work! 4th quarter is coming up fast
>and there's nobody else qualified to do the work. In the meantime,
>I've just had a quadrupling of inbound message volumes and 2 main
>distribution nodes down.

>So - I'll put it simply:

>The defendants did what any defendant does - deny, deny, deny.

>Taking their word for it is equivalent to letting Ted Bundy walk
>because he says "I didn't do it and my mommy believes me."

>This doesn't take rocket science.

>No more needs to be said on this nonsensical claim of disbelief.

	Would not the innocent say the same thing?  Particularly when there was
no physical or forensic evidence of gassing introduced.  

>Now - a quick query to you (no sidestepping).

>If the defendants were contesting the gassings in 1946, why are you
>claiming that the gassing story came out in the 50's and 60's?

	I am not making that claim.  I have said it was codified in those years
with the elimination of steaming, electrocution and vacuum chambers and
with the elimination of gas chambers in Germany.  All of those and more
had to be done AFTER all those things were established as true in 1946.


>In fact, why were you willing (other than for the obvious troll
>value) to use Al Gentile's claim that the gassing business came out
>in the mid-forties?

	The value of the AG messages was to point out what people are saying now
was also known then, that there were no gas chambers in Germany despite
the IMT charges that there were, and that all of the claims of them came
>from  Russia which not not permit anyone else to investigate.  It
supports what is known now, that the entire gassing story came from
Russia.  

>Please try to be consistent.

	You need to follow the conference more closely than you can with the
work load you have now.  

>And remember the story of the Local Champion.

	You need to remind me of more than that.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:34 PDT 1996
Article: 47388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 06:34:59 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01  1:38:15 AM CDT 1996
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sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:

>Mr. Giwer:

>Have you absolutely no intellectual honesty.  Of course, the revisionist
>position is grounded upon a belief in an all powerful conspiracy and hoax
>perpetrated by the Jews and Zionists.  I can read.

	You started with a false pretense of asking an honest question and
immediately closed the loop with the presentation of dogma.  

	Please, do not lecture me on intellectual honesty.  You are hardly the
source of same.  
	
	And obviously you can not read, nor can you master quoting in your
responses.  There is no cause for any conspiracy, which means in secret,
as everything that happens is in public.  

>  Mr. Zundel's postings and website make that entirely clear.  According
>to Mr. Zundel, the German people and nation are being blood libeled by
>Jews.  Mr. Zundel refers to this as extortion, plain and simple.  The gas
>chamber story according to Mr. Zundel, was created by a group of money
>grubbing Jews to  keep the German people in eternal guilt and to extort
>money.   Even Mr. Smith, with his smooth rhetoric and calming demeanor
>always comes back to this basic theme, and like you,  tries to minimize
>the actions of the Hitler regime.

	Here is a real news flash for you.  Pay real close attention and read
real careful now.

	I am not Zundel.  I am not Smith.  

	Repeat that several times.  

	If that registers on your pea brain lets move on.  

	They are speculating on the cause for the cause of the entire contrary
to human nature celebration of defeat and loss.  

>And I cannot understand why, your complete dodging of my "How would Hitler
>view Revisionism" question notwithstanding.  

	Excuse me.  This time I will take it seriously.  I don't have the
slighest idea.  It that a good enough answer?  

Naziism is an
>exterminationalist philosophy.   

	That only indicates you are completely ignorant of it.  That is also not
surprising.  

The Aryan is the gem of the earth, the
>Jew is Lucifer incarnate and must be destroyed.  

	As another example of ignorance there were Darwinian overtones but no
religious overtones to any of the publically known speeches.  

You act like there is
>something to be ashamed of in wanting to kill Jews and wipe them off the
>face of the earth.  Hitler referred to the Jews as a maggot on the body of
>the world.  I've read Mein Kampf.

	Congratulations for reading the entire friggin book.  More likely your
read selected excerpts but let that pass.  I find no religious overtones
in maggot.  Your god may disagree.  

> What do you do with maggots, lice, rats and other vermin, Mr Giwer.  You
>exterminate them.  It's them or you.  Kill 'em all I say.       

	Your hyperbole is ruling your lack of rationality on this subject.  

	But of course you celebrate the successful genocide of all the peoples
who dared to stand in the way of the Israelite genocidal maniacs who
stole the Promised Land carrying total extermination by the Ark before
them.  

	Genocide is a powerful religious theme.  It was created by the
Hebrews/Israelites/Jews.  And no one else.  

>The Final Solution was the pinnacle of National Socialism.  It was carried
>out by true believers, men and women of zeal, men and women of  courage. 
>Mr. Giwer, it takes incredible courage and self discipline to machine gun
>or gas a small child.  It is not a fun assignment.  Could you do it.  I
>know I couldn't, no matter how strong my beliefs.  These people acted out
>of a sense of duty for their children and future generations.    

	Genocide by the sword was the creation of the Jews in any previous
incarnation you wish to address.  They slaughtered the men, women, male
children and saved the female children who had not known man for their
own sex slaves which is perhaps the only thing that differentiates them
>from  the Nazis in the popular view of Nazis.  The Jews saved the little
girls for their own pederasty.  

>Mr Giwer, these people weren't animals or sickos or sadists.  Most of them
>were normal, decent people.  Some of them were the cream of German
>society. 

	That is nothing you can say about the genocidal Israelites.  

>These people understood that the Final Solution would be a thankless job
>but they took it on in order to protect future generations from the
>eternal threat and to spare the need by future generations to undertake
>this obviously unpleasant task.  And it was an unpleasant task.  Many of
>these people had nervous breakdowns or became alcoholics.  And nobody gave
>them a medal or any official recognition.

>And now you and your people come along, and further besmirch their work
>and great accomplishment for the greater good of mankind.     

	I only point out that the only known successful genocidal maniacs in
recorded history are the Jews.  

	If you have a problem with that, I suggest you read up on the history of
these people some day.  You should start with the book of Joshua and
work forward.  You will learn the people who you claim suffered did far
worse than happened to them.  

=====
	
	You opened this discussion with a loaded question and had a prepared
response.  You ignored the first answer in order to give that prepared
resonse.  

	Now I invite you to frame a response in light of this post rather than
in terms of what you have prepared in your mind before you read this.  

	You will note that I have specifically avoided responding as you would
have me respond.  

	Please do not give me a canned response.  

	This is not a HS debaing club.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:44:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56934 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!news.PBI.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:18:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4r6r4b$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56934 alt.revisionism:47402

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r1dan$25q@d31rz3.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz3.Stanford.EDU
>(Richard J. Green) said:

>>
>>In article <4r1ago$g6a@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
>>Rich Graves  wrote:

>>>Rich, I suggest adding Ricardo "Autocyberretromoderationbot" Gonzalez to
>>>your killfile. 

>>Thanks.

>>>As for Giwer, he is so obviously an asshole that I encourage him to speak
>>>out. Gord controls him, you know.

>>But, I'm Gordon McFeee...

>You may be Gordon McFeee, but I'm Gord McFee and *I* control Giwer.  He is
>my obedient little puppy.



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:44:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56935 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:17:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <4qv45s$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> >> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >>         When the message I respond to me contains an attack against me thus
>> >> >> deviating the from the serious debate that the holohuggers claim they
>> >> >> want then I will continue to respond in that manner.
>> >>
>> >> >Attacks such as calling a woman "fatbroad"?
>> >> >
>> >> >Hmmm... looks like a bit of Pot. Kettle. Black here, Mr. Giwer.
>> >>
>> >>         That worked to instantly shut off her silly on me.  So why not?
>> 
>> >Well, if it works I guess it's okay...you slimesucking piece of
>> >diatom excrement.
>> 
>>         Another example of the kind of debate the holohuggers claim they want to
>> conduct on alt.revisionism.  Thank you.  You are expressing your cause
>> for what is it worth.

>And anyone who read the entirety of the post would quickly realize
>in what context the comments were made.

>*sigh*  No sense of humour, either.  What a truly sad individual.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:44:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56969 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!academ!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:27:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47415 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56969

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 



gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qo4e0$m12@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>[referring to gutless Giwer]

>>>He's just lying as usual.

>Oops--away he runs again.

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Another gas chamber
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

>>	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
>>powdered cyanide.  

>>"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
>>dummy shower heads. In
>>the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control
>>inflow and outtake of
>>gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
>>generate the lethal smoke.
>>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. " IMT XXX
>>- p.470. 

>>	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

>>	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>                 

>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:44:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56970 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:27:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4r79o4$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47416 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56970

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 



gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qo4f1$m12@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>Giwer is afraid to receive e-mail from you.  He can't cope with it.

>Runs away again.  I have, as usual, defeated him.

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Another gas chamber
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

>>	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
>>powdered cyanide.  

>>"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
>>dummy shower heads. In
>>the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control
>>inflow and outtake of
>>gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
>>generate the lethal smoke.
>>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. " IMT XXX
>>- p.470. 

>>	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

>>	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                     




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:57:32 PDT 1996
Article: 11420 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Have democratic nations ever fought one another?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:12:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4qqh0a$qcq@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qfmv1$blf@parlor.hiwaay.net> <31cd6f00.5663316@sophie.noc.lexmark.com> <4qkffb$78d@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qpju2$8hq@news.sei.cmu.edu>
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firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) wrote:

>In article <4qkffb$78d@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>	And then some hothead started shooting over Ft. Sumter.  Lincoln
>>responded with a Naval blockade of the Confederacy and the battle lines
>>were drawn.  

>I beg your pardon.  The Union had promised not to resupply
>Fort Sumter.  The Confederacy had this promise in writing
>from Seward and, later, in a telegram from Lincoln.  Only
>when it was clear that this promise would be broken did the
>Confederacy demand that Fort Sumter surrender or be bombarded.

	Thank you very much.  I missed that detail although I would still
conclude it was a hothead.  They had plenty of support in the North and
could have negotiated a better resolution.  Simply publicizing the
broken promises would have strengthened the hand of Lincoln's
opposition.  

>As FDR did later to the Japanese, the Lincoln administration
>had managed to lie, cheat, and manipulate their intended
>adversary into firing the first shot.  If Lincoln did not
>intend war, why had he started mobilisation three months
>before the shots at Fort Sumter?

	Another good point but I was unaware that raising an army had been
authorized.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47393 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Poor team" KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:13:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26  4:16:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> 
># I would agree that it was wrong to hang Streicher, 
> 
>While that may be debatable, it is clear that Streicher was
>one of the most revolting swines to walk the face of the Earth.

	Strangely I would have taken you as the type who is against the death
penalty.  Was I mistaken?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47411 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:48:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4r1d4a$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4qui33$sh3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>DvdThomas  wrote:
>>>>(3)  Monitor diffusion accurately if done in a known volume chamber.
>>>
>>>How big is your chamber?  How will you evacuate it. 
>>
>>There would be no evacuation.  

>What do you intend to do with a chamber full of toxic concentrations of
>HCN?  What is your design for the chamber?

>>The intent is to determine the evaporation
>>and diffusion rates in a normal atmosphere.  Chamber size depends on what
>>resources you have available.  Larger is better, but results can be scaled
>>if care is taken. 

>Tell me how you intend to scale the calculation; if you assume you know
>the functional form (presumably a linear combination of error
>functions), there is no point in doing the experiment.

>Your evaporation experiments might actually be feasible (however, Dr.
>Keren has already posted the results for experiments on actual Zyklon),
>your diffusion proposal is less convincing.  What degreee of error are
>you willing to accept a factor of 10, 100?  Do you have any idea what
>the systematic errors in such an experiment might be?  (Hint: turbulence
>is not a closed problem).  After you spend your $5000 [sic], will you
>have results that mean anything?

	Perhaps the money would include hiring a REAL chemist who understands
physical chemistry to answer the questions you raise?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47430 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:52:04 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4qq0rk$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>writes:

>>
>>>The main challenge to the revisionist position is Occam's Razor.  I have
>>>yet to see a coherent answer to this challenge.
>>
>>>Perhaps you'd like to provide one.
>>
>>	Occam's razor, you mean the least number of hypothesis that will
>explain
>>events?  Death from disease and towards the end starvation and probably
>>lack of water in most cases can adequately explain all the deaths without
>>the superfluous gas chambers being added.  
>>
>>

>I mentioned Occam's Razor a couple of months ago.  I also mentioned the
>analogy of the perturbations of the Ptolemaic astronomy.  The explanation
>that is the simplest, accords best with the documentation, demands the
>least special pleading, the least *interpretation*, will be the one the
>future will follow.  I am not sure which one it will be, or perhaps it
>will be a hybrid, but I am sure that the future will regard our inability
>to achieve detachment in this area with some consternation.

	It will seem first will have to come a realization that there really can
not be more than one story about what and how things happened.  It has
to be realized that the explanations for so many occurances can not be
mutually exclusive.  We can not have Birkenau carried out in secret and
right in front of thousands of people at the same time.  

	It is clearly not only that were are talking about the simplest
explanation but also that the present way to preserve the story piles
complexity on top of complexity as did the Ptolemaic solar system.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47431 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Do you know how stupid holohuggers are?
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:31:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	How stupid?

	The Marduk, holohugging would-be telephone harrasser, has not stopped
making his pig noises during this holohugger's harassing phone calls.
The latest was last night at 8:31 EDT.  

	That's not the really stupid part.  The really stupid part is that this
holohugger is harrassing the GTE Personal Secretary answering service.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47439 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

># Where are the captured vehicles?

>I don't know. Possibly, they were destroyed; there were not
>many of them. Like the gas chambers in some of the camps,
>the SS may have destroyed them  - a pretty easy thing to do.

>As to the vehicles used in the Mogilev gassing, the photographs
>show their serial numbers. I don't know if they survived the war;
>the German Army lost a huge amount of equipment in the USSR.

	Again a total lack of physical evidence.  The pictures I have found on
Nizkor could be anything.  There is nothing distinguishing them from any
truck.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47440 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: why would anyone care?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:40 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4qletb$2jo@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>	May I suggest that Hitler was a victim of early onset Altheimer's and
>>was a secret drooler since 1932.  The only talent he had was making
>>speeches.
>>
>>	Therefore he was completely innocent of anything he is charged with.
>>
>>	Now tell me, what would be the difference were this true?  
>>
>>	Not a damn thing.

>    Let's turn the question around.  Let's assume you are correct, and
>every death was the result of mistreatment rather than active murder. 
>Hitler and the rest of the Third Reich are dead.  You can't do them any
>good by providing evidence for an appeal.  So tell me: why would you care
>if they were innocent or not?  By the argument you seem to be suggesting
>here, you too are spending a lot of time on this for no constructive
>purpose.

	I have told you many times.  It is the people here that interest me.
They are like liberals, perhaps a variant of clintonhuggers.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47443 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:12:48 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
> 
># You do not even know how to play the game.  The documents
># all clearly state the purpose.  It is not like the one in 100,000
># documents that implies gassing.  
> 
>You still get an F. "Revisionists" say that documents don't
>count. We have documents about the construction of the gas
>chambers and the gassings. "Revisionists" say they don't count.
> 
>You can't say documents count for event X and not for event Y. No go.

	You have documents of the construction of morgues and nothing else.  
 
># Sorry but the pictures are of the  bombings themselves.  It
># is not you pictures of bodies dead from disease and starvation
># from the end of the war that are palmed off as proof of gassing 
># during the war.  The films are of the bombings themselves.  You 
># have no films of the gassings themselves.
> 
>First, according to "revisionists", films mean nothing; they
>can be fakes, and they say all photographic evidence to the
>Holocaust is a fake, so what gives?
> 
>Second, there was a film I am aware of, taken during a gassing
>in Mogilev. I've seen some (unfortunately low-quality xerox
>copies) of stills from it.
> 
>The rest of your article is meaningless; you provide no evidence
>stronger than what "revisionists" automatically dismiss when
>it is presented as evidence to the Holocaust.

	Precisely, you dumb fuck, should you folks find the smoking gun tomorrow
you are laying the groundwork for dismissing it out of hand with this
line of reasoning. 
 
># There are no gas chambers there.  
> 
>Shrug. Keep repeating that, like a lame-brained parrot. You're bound
>to convince everybody if you repeat it enough times.

	Get out of the institution and see what the real world is like some day.








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47445 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Giwer!
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:02:25 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4qmv49$bu0@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com whines:
>>
>>>	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies"
>>>	not getting close this time?  
>>
>>>	...After being filled up to capacity the chambers were
>>>	hermetically closed and steam was let in...
>>
>>>After Mr. Giwer tells us the Polish word that was mistranslated here
>>>as "steam!"
>>
>>	You are the one who appears to know.  So tell me.  And while you are at
>>it tell me what word was mistranslated as boiler room and boilers.
>>While you are at it, the mistranslation of heremetically sealed also.  

>Don't forget "terracotta."

>Hmm. I gave up too soon it seems. You might also note that the
>[snipped] excerpt from the IMT Blue Series, vol. XXXII is not
>eyewitness testimony. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the
>Blue Series would know that a volume number that high would not
>contain testimony of any kind.

>So how close was the author of the statement standing? At a rough
>guess, about 300 miles away.

>Got a clue yet?

	First we had someone who was going to claim the correct translation was
exhaust while ignoring the rest of the words clearly pointing to
steaming.

	Now we have you trying to start a different game.  

	Why do you folks never come out and plainly say what you want to say
instead of trying to start some kind of multimessage game?  

	Ans:  In hopes the original subject will be so confused you can claim
anything you want to claim about it.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47446 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:14:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:

># But don't blame _me_ that there were no gas chambers in Belarus, 
># Ukraine, or the Baltics. 

>The "Einsatzgruppen" did use "gaswagons" in the occupied USSR. There
>was also the gassing in Mogilev, supervised by Nebe and Dr. Widmann.

	Where are the captured vehicles?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47462 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 03:24:28 GMT
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>Alexander Baron  writes:

>>Because there are plenty of survivors who didn't witness gassings or who
>>passed through the camps totally unaware of them. 

>"The camps"? Which camps? There were plenty of camps where no gassings
>took place; there may be others where they took place on a small scale
>if at all (Dachau). One would expect most survivors of such camps to be
>"totally unaware" of gassings.

	Actually it is quite the opposite.  When people are living in close
proximity and when some of them are involved in anything there are no
secrets.  In addition under such conditions there are dozens of
variations upon everything that occurs.  

	You have a very strange idea of human nature.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47464 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer finally realized this?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:18:21 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qmemf$9sd@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael
>P. Stein) said:

>>
>>In article <4qkcj2$7qn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,  
>>>
>>>	It was quite enough to crack this conference wide open.  
>>>
>>>	Or have you not noticed all the new and old names that are back?  

>>    Well, Roberts came and went for a while and then came again before you
>>arrived.  Baron comes and goes according to his legal schedule.  (And both
>>of them are at the mercy of their ISP.)

>>    As for the rest, they were too stupid to figure out they could post
>>anytime they pleased?  They needed a 163 IQ genius to show them how to
>>post articles?

>>    Why, one would almost think that you are implying you have entered
>>into some sort of conspiracy with them.  You know, how to deal with the
>>Nizkorites.

>It is hard to believe that anyone would enter into a conspiracy with someone
>as loathsome as Giwer.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  




>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                                                                        




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 15:10:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47472 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hope we all notice
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:18:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qlkul$e8c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>>
>>	
>>	The folks complaining about appropriate posts and spamming and the like
>>are engaging in a debate on operating systems right here and completely
>>off topic. 

>>	But then, the holohuggers never manage to notice their own failings.

>It is very diffocult for normal people to notice their mistakes when they
>are assaulted on a daily basis by hundreds of Giwer mistakes.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  




>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>                                                                                          




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 16:21:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47486 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists...
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 20:41:34 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57072 alt.revisionism:47486

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r5657$hve@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>	
>>	It is what holohuggers are like.  Wannabe JDL terrorists.  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                       
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 18:44:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47521 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL CHRISTIAN CHILDREN
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:21:19 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	ADL rabbi said,

>	 "Especially after the Holocaust, Christians have no right to
>talk about a mission to the Jews".

>therefore, evil little Christian children also.

	Or, more succinctly, all Christians are Nazis according to this idiot.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 20:42:58 PDT 1996
Article: 47541 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:32:59 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>: >	What about the ADL rabbi who said,  "Especially after the
>: >Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>: >Jews". Some of these Christians are just little kids. 
>: 
>: >	Evil little Christian Children.
>: 
>: 	In the minds of the non-goy all Christians are Nazis.  There is no other
>: assumption that could lead to the statement.  

>Would somebody like to file this away against the next time Giwer asks
>for proof that he's an antisemite?

	Be certain to file away the rabbi's statement also rather than the usual
censorship job that is done here and at Nizkor.  It is clear that he is
putting the responsibility for his personal holocaust upon the shoulders
of Christians in the US.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 20:42:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47542 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>"Afternoon Session: Goering, Ribbontropm and Hess had a great laugh over
>the reading of Goering's telephone conversation with Ribbontrop on the day
>of Hitler's triumphant entry into Vienna, describing the whole thing as a
>lark., with birds twittering, etc. Then the hilarity in the dock suddenly
>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

	We note here by AMERICAN troops, therefore we do not expect to find any
mention of gas chambers or human skin as we now know those things did
not exist.  

....

>Streicher: "...keeps watching, immobile ecept for an occaisinal
>squint...as human skin lampshade is shown, Streicher says, 'I don't
>believe that'...

	And of course he was correct in not believing it.  

....

>"After the showing of the film, Hess remarks, 'I don't believe it.'
>Goering whispers to him to keep quiet, his own cockiness quite gone.
>Streicher says something about 'perhaps in the last days.' Fritzsche
>retorts scornfully. 'Millions? In the last days? -No.' Otherwise there is
>a gloomy silence as the prisoners file out of the courtroom.

	Who would have implied millions in the camps the Americans liberated?
It appears there is a false allegation that has been left out here.  

>"We immediately went down to the cell block to talk to them individually.
>The first one was Fritzsche. As soon as we closed the door and started
>talking to him, he burst into tears and sobbed bitterely, 'No power in
>heaven or earth - will erase this shame from my country! -not in
>generations - not in centuries! -' He shook with sobs and clenched his
>fists against his forehead, catching his breath only long enough to say,
>'Excuse me for losing control - but I to sit there and take it for a whole
>hour!' We asked if he needed any sleeping pills and he answered, 'No,
>what's the use?  It would only be cowardice to drug this thing out of my
>consciousness.'

>"Von Schirach seemed fairly well composed, but said, 'I don't know how
>Germans could do such things.'

>"Frick made some feeble attempts at rationalizations - 'I suppose the
>disruption of communications in the last few months - the bombing and
>confusion - I don't know.' Then he dismissed the subject and asked whether
>they weren't going to get their walk today.

>"Funk was depressed, and burst into tears as soon as we asked him how he
>was affected by the film. 'Horrible! Horrible!' he repeated in a choking
>voice. When asked whether he would need a sleeping pill, he sobbed,
>'What's the use? - What's the use?'

>"Streicher admitted the film was 'Terrible' -without any apparant feeling,
>then asked whether the guards couldn't be more quite at night so that he
>could sleep.

>"Speer showed no outward emotional effects, but said that he was all the
>more resolved to acknowledge a collective responsibility of the Party
>leadership and absolve the German people of the guilt.

>"Frank was extremey depressed and agitated. As soon as wee mentioned the
>film, he began to cry in abject shame and rage. 'To think that we lived
>like kings and believed in that beast! -Don't let anybody tell you that
>they had no idea! Everybody sensed that there was something horribly wrong
>with this system, even if we didn't know all the details. They didn't want
>to know! It was too comfortabe to live on the system, to support our
>families in royal style, and to believe that it was all right. You treat
>us too well,' he said, pointing to the food on the table, which he hadn't
>touched. 'Your prisoners and our own people starved to death in our
>camps.-May God have mercy on our souls! -Yes, Herr Doktor, what I told you
>was absolutely right. - This trial has been willed by God. _I was trying
>to be understanding with the others when we came together - but that's
>over - I know what I have to do...' He became more solemn with the last
>sentance. We asked if he needed anything to sleep. He shook his head. 'No,
>thank you. -If I don't sleep , I can pray...' (There was no doubting his
>sincerity.)

>"Seyss-Inquart admitted: 'It gets you. -But I can hold out.'

>"Still trembling with emotion, Doenitz said hald in English and half in
>German, 'How can they accuse me of knowing of such things? They ask why I
>didn't go to Himmler to check on the concentration camps. Why that's
>preposterous! He would have kicked me out just as I would have kicked him
>out if he came to investigate the navy! What in God's name did I have to
>do with these things? It was only by chance that I rose to such a high
>position and I never had a thing to do with the Party.'*

>["* Doenitz was not indicted on Count 4" p.48fn.]

>"We asked von Papen why he didn't watch the picture. 'I didn't want to see
>Germany's shame,' he admitted.

>"Sauckel was completely unnerved. His face twitched and he trembled from
>head to foot. He stretched out his fingers and cried, wild-eyed, 'I'd
>choke myself with these hands if I thought I had the slightest thing to do
>with those murders! Its a shame! Its a disgrace for us and for our
>children -and for our children's children's children!'

>Schacht was burning with indignation. 'How dare they make me sit there
>with thse criminals and watch a film on concentration camp atrocities!
>They know that I ws an enemy of Hitler and ended up in a concentration
>camp myself! It is unforgiveable!'

>"Von Neurath was rather bewildered, didn't have much to say. Simply
>pointed out that he wasn't in power when all this went on.

>"Raeder said that he had hardly even heard of concentration camps before.
>Just heard of three of them, when he made efforts to get some friends out.

>"Jodl was calm, but evidently moved. 'It is shocking. Believe me -the
>shame of it all is that so many of the youth joined the Party out of
>idealistic motives.'

>Keital was eating, having just returned from a conference with his defense
>attorney. He appeared to have forgotten the film until we mentioned it. He
>stopped eating and said with his mouth half full, 'It is terrible. When I
>see such things, I'm ashamed of being a German! -It was those dirty SS
>swine! -If I had known it I would have told my son, 'I'd rather shoot you
>than let you join the SS.' But I didn't know. I'll never be able to look
>people in the face again."

>"Hess seemd confused, kept mumbling, 'I don't understand- I don't understand.'

>"Ribbentrop had a visibale tremor of the hands, and looked utterly
>bewildered. 'Hitler couldn't even have looked at such a film himself. -I
>don't understand. - I don't even think Himmler could have ordered suchs
>things. -I don't understand.

>"Rosenberg was even more nervous than usual. 'Its an awful thing, even if
>the Russians did do the same thing -terrible-terrible-terrible -.' I
>pointed out his responsibility in formulting Nazi Rassenpolitik (racial
>policy). 'Oh, you can't explain it on the basis of Rassenpolitik,' he
>answered defensively, 'becuse so many Germans were killed. -This just
>weakens our whole defense.'

>"As for Goering, he was apparantly disturbed because it had spoiled his
>show. 'It was such a good afternoon too, until they showed that film.
>-They were reading my telephone conversations on the Austrian affair, and
>everbody was laughing with me. -And then they showed that awful film, and
>it just spoiled everything.' (_Nuremberg Diary_, pp.45-49.)

	Which is quite interesting in that all of these would be exculpatory
evidence in a real trial.  Failure of the chain of command, probably a
courts martial offense worthy of execution, but certainly not for direct
participation in these matters no matter how exaggerated.  

>> In January, there was evidence of mass shootings. No one questioned it then,
>> and no one does now.  When the Russians presented their case, 2/8/46, there 
>> was a change in mood. Namely, skepticism. (p.135ff)

>Janauary "evidence of mass shootings:"

>"Morning Session [January 3, 1946]: Colonel Amen called former SD Chief
>Ohlendorf to the stand. Ohlendorf described hw orders for mass murder were
>given and executed, and how he was given command of an action group to
>exterminate 90,000 Jews. He gave the gruesome details of mass shootings
>for men and gas-wagon extermination for women and children. It was all
>directly ordered by Himmler on behalf of the Fu"hrer, so he had to obey.
>[The effect on the defendants was generally depressing, as the inescapable
>reality and shame of mass urder was driven home by the unquestionable
>reliability of a German official who admitted participating in it.] (Ibid.
>p.101.)

>Hardly suprising that "no one questioned it then, and no one does now,"
>considering the "unquestionable reliability" of former SD Chief Ohlendorf
>testifying to his _admitted participation_ in murdering 90,000 Jews in
>mass shootings and "gas-wagons."

>February 8, 1946, opening address of the Russian prosecution: 

>"Goering looked rather depressed as I pointed out that the courtroom was
>full for the first time in weeks, to hear the Russian chief prosecutor,
>General Rudenko, make his opening address. 'Yes, they all want to see the
>show,' he said scornfully. '-You will see- this trial will be a disgrace
>in 15 years.'

>"Morning Session: General Rudenko began the prosecution by the Russian
>delegation with an impassioned condemnation of the fascist invaders.
>'...The defendants knew that cynical mockery at the laws and customs of
>war constituted the gravest crime. They knew it, but they hoped that the
>total war, by brigning victory, would also secure there immunity. But
>victory did not arrive on the heels of their crimes. Instead came complete
>and unconditional surrender of Germany, and with it came the hour of grim
>reckoning for all the outrages they committed... (Ibid. p.135.)

>[Rest of Rudenko's monologue omitted.]

>"Lunch Hour: (During the address Goering and Hess took off their
>headphones as a gesture that the address was not worth listening to.) When
>I asked Goering why he hadn't been listening, he said that he knew in
>advance what the Russians were going to say, but he was amazed to hear
>them talking about Poland -he had caught word that word when General
>Rudenko mentioned aggression against varius countries. 'I did not think
>they would be so shameless as to mention Poland,' he said. 

>"'Why do you consider it shameless?' I asked.

>"'Because they attacked at the same time we did. -It was all a prearranged
>affair.' 

	Which appears to be something the holohuggers do not wish to recognize
in addressing Britain's selective declaration of war on Germany only.  

>(Ibid. p.136.)

>[Rest of Febraury 8 omitted.]

>It is equally unsuprising that the defenadants (i.e. Goering) became
>"skeptical" when the Russian presented their opening arguments. The
>defendants has _already_, apriori, concluded that they were false. BFD. 

	Most likely a wise decision.  

>> At one point, Gilbert, conversing with Goering said, *You can't shrug off
>> 6 million murders!* -- To which Goering responded, *Well, I doubt if it
>> was 6 million, but as I have always said, it is sufficient if only 5 per
>> cent of it is true ...* 

>"Morning Session [Febraury 15, 1946]: The Russins continued with German
>atrocities, and mentioned excerpts from Frank's diary and other utternces
>which show that he directly tied up with atocities in Poland. (Ibid. 151.)

>"Lunch Hour: [...] I mentioned that the Russians were expected to show an
>atrocity film on Monday. 

>"Ach, what the Russians show!' Goering scoffed uneasily.

>"Ribbentrop promptly parroted the Rosenberg line of attack: 'Haven't you
>heard about how the Americans slaughtered the Indians? Were they an
>inferior race too? -Do you know who started the concentration camps in the
>first place? -The British. And do you know why? To force the Boers to give
>up their arms.'

>"'Those atrocity films!' Giering continued. 'Anybody can make an atrocity
>film if they take corpses out of their graves and then show a tractor
>shoving them back in again.'

>"'You can't brush it off that easily,' I replied. 'We did find your
>concentration camps fairly littered with corpses and mass graves- I saw
>them myself in Dachau! -and Hadamar!'

>"'Oh, but not piled up by the thousands like that-'

>"'Don't tell me what I didn't see! I saw corpses literally by the carload-'

>"'Oh, that one train-'

>"'-And piled up like cordwood in the crematorium- and half starved and
>mutilated prisoners, who told me how the butchery had been going on for
>years -and Dachau was not the worst by far! You can't shrug off 6,000,000
>murders!'

>"'Well, I doubt if it was 6,000,000,' he said despondantly, apparantly
>sorry he had started the argument, '-but as I've always said, it is
>sufficient if only 5 per cent of it is true-.' A glum silence followed.
>(Ibid. p.152.)

>Given the context of the discussion, it is quite clear that Goering's "5
>percent" comment was simply him blowing smoke out his butt in a lame
>attempt to downplay the murder of 6 million Jews. 

	What may be clear to you makes it clear to me you see this as a Jews
only affair.  This has been noted many, many times.  

>> The reaction to the _Soviet_ atrocity film was markedly different. 
>> Goering, for one, considered it phony, with the parts of the corpses
>> probably played by German soldiers. (p. 162.)

>"Afternoon Session [February 19, 1946]: The Russians presented their
>atrocity film, a horrifying document of mass murder even more terrible
>than the one presented by the Americans. [I stood at Goering's end of the
>dock and watched the prisoners in the semidarkness during the showing of
>the film.

>"Goering is tickled at the false start, as the film starts upside down and
>has to be readjusted; he covers his laugh with his hand, but looks around
>to see if the audience is laughing ... The film starts again] ... It shows
>the acres of corpses of Russian PW's murdered or left to starve in the
>fields where they had been captured; the torture instruments, nutilated
>bodies, guillotines and baskets of heads; bodies hanging from lamp-posts,
>found upon recapture of towns were the Gestapo had been active; the ruins
>of Lidice; women weeping over their dead -mass burial services; raped and
>murdred women, children with heads bashed in; the crematoria and the gas
>chambers; the piles of clothes, the bales of women's hair at Auschwitz and
>Maidanek ... [Goering keeps pretending to read a book through all of this,
>yawining in boredom, occaisonally making a sarcastic remark to Hess and
>Ribbentrop.] 

>"Goering's Cell: I went down to the cell block with Major Goldensohn to
>get a sampling of reactions. Goering readily gace 'reasons' why he did not
>consider the Russian atrocity film worth looking at: 'First of all, a film
>that they made is no proof, just looking at it from a legal point of view.
>They could just as easily have killed a few hundred German PW's and put
>them in Russian uniforms for the atrocity picture- you don't know the
>Russians the way I do. Secondly, lots of those pictures were probably
>taken during their own revolution, like the basketts of heads. Thirdly,
>those fields covered with bodies. -Why, such pictures are easy to get any
>time in a war. I've seen thoudands of bodies myself. And where did they
>get fresh corpses to photograph? They couldn't have come right in ready to
>take pictures. They must have shot those people themselves.' He was eager
>to appear perfectly satisfied in dismissing the whole thing with this
>preposterous propaganda line but threw a sop to our moral sensitivity. 'Of
>course, as I've always told you, it is enough if only 5 per cent of all
>the atrocity stories are true, from all that has already been presented
>before -but I do not put any stock in what the Russians bring. They are
>blaming there own atrocities on us.' (Ibid. pp.161-162.)

>Again, given the context of the, it is quite clear that Goering's comments
>were simply more smoke blowing out of his butt in another lame attempt to
>downplay the murder of 6 million Jews with puerile appeals to authority
>like "you don't know the Russians the way I do" and "I've seen thoudands
>of bodies myself." 

	And of course you accept the story of the guillotines and the basketsful
of heads that have vanished from history as this Jewish holocaust thing
of yours has become codified.  

>Goering, ss Gilbert noted, "was eager to appear perfectly satisfied in
>dismissing the whole thing with this preposterous propaganda line but
>threw a sop to our moral sensitivity" with his puerile "5 percent
>solution." BFD.

	But of course the Russians were telling the truth about the heads were
they not?  Or do you agree that at least this part was falsified?  

>> February 27 and 28 gave the balance of Soviet testimony, namely, on
>> Auschwitz and Treblinka.  (p. 174ff)  There is a revealing episode here. 
>> During a break, Dr. Kranzbuhler, Doenitz' attorney, asked him, *Didn't
>> _anybody_ know _anything_ about _any_ of these things?*  Doentiz
>> shook his head and shrugged sadly.  Goering turned around, *Of course not
>> ...*

>"Morning Session [Febraury 27, 1946]: A surviving Jewish resident of Vilna
>told how all but 600 of the 80,000 Jewish residents of Vilna were
>exterminated by special commandos, and babies, including his own, were
>killed at birth. Colonel Smirnov then continued to describe from
>documents, experiments on concentration camp inmates, the whlesale murder
>of sick people in hospitals, etc.

	It is interesting that 79,400 Jews were exterminated by Jews.  Or is
this suddenly not a completely Jewish affair?  

>"The a women prisoner from Auschwitz, Severina Shmaglevskaya, described
>the treatment of women and children there. Babies born in camp were taken
>away immediately and never seen again. She demanded with suppressed
>bitterness, 'In the name of all the women of Europe who became mothers,
>'Where are our children now?'' [Several of the defense attorneys bit their
>lis.] As she went on to describe how Jewish children were thrown alive
>into the crematorium furnaces during the rush season of 1944, most of the
>defendants lowered their heads. Funk turned his back on Streicher and
>leaned sickly on the back of the bench. Frank flushed; Rosenberg fidgeted.
>Goering solved the problem as usual by taking his earphones off. Hess
>hadn't even been listening.

	It is interesting to note that she worked in a crematoria while pregnant
or perhaps the pregnant part is an unwarranted inference.  

>"Lunch Hour: At the end of the session, before going to lunch, Doenitz'
>naval attorney, Dr. Kranzbuhler,asked him, 'Didn't _anybody_ know
>_anything_ about _any_ of these things?' Doenitz shook his head and
>shrugged sadly.

>Goering turned around. 'Of course not. -You know how it is even in a
>battalion -a battalion commander doesn't know anything that goes on in the
>line. The higher you stand, the less 7you see of what is going on below."
>I could hardly have thought of a more damning argument against the
>military hiearchy, but Goering, in his militeristic perversion, thought he
>had given a reasonable explination.

>"...I went over to Jodl and asked him whether he thought it was possible
>that nobody knew anything about any of the things mentioned today.
>Kaltenbrunner was sitting in the next corner. 

>"'Of course, somebody knew all about it,' Jodl said quietly. 'There was a
>whole chain-of-command from the Chief of the RSHA down to the people who
>executed those commands.'

>"I then walked over to Kaltenbrunner. 'I suppose you didn't know anything
>about these things either.'

>"Of course not,' he whispered. 'The peole who did are all dead. -Hitler,
>Himmler, Boremann, Heydrich, Eichmann-'

>"'Did those few people have the sole knowledge and responsibility for the
>murder of millions of people and the burning of the children alive?'

>"'Well, no- the peole who actually participated in it did-. But I had
>nothing to do with it.'

>"'Even as Chief of the RSHA?'

>"'Concentration camps were not my responsibility. I never found out
>anything about any of this." (Ibid. pp.173-175.)

>Hmmm. A little lie of ommision here, on Erlich's part, it seems. What was
>the _purpose_ of mentioning only _part_ of Goering's lame-ass
>"militeristic perversion" while _omitting_ Jodl's and  Kaltenbrunner's
>comments that contradicted Goering? 

	And again we have more exculpatory statements were this a real trial.  

>> On April 15 there was a climax of sorts when Rudolf Hoess testified. (p.
>> 264ff) There was initial disbelief, but no one seems to have thought that
>> he might not be telling the truth.  Of course, at that time, Hoess
>> testified to the gassing of 2.5 million.

>[April 15, 1946]

>"Morning Session: In the morning session, Colonel Hoess testified to the
>murders of 2 1/2 million Jews under his direction at Auschwitz. It was all

	2 1/2 million while he was commandant.  

>done at Himmler's direct orders as a Fu"hrerbefhl [Fu"hrer's order] for
>the final solutiono of the Jewish problem. [He gave his testimony in the
>same matter-of-fact, apathetic manner as he had related it to me in his
>cell.] The Jews arrived in large train transports from all countries.
>Those capable of working were sent to the labor details, and the rest,
>including most women and all young children, were sent to the
>extermination chambers immediately. Children who were hidden under the
>dresses of their mothers to escape notice were torn from their mothers and
>sent to the gas chambers. Gold teeth and gold rings were extracted from
>the corpses after gassing and the melted gold was sent to the Economics
>Ministry. The women's hair was packed in bales for commercial use.

>"[The defendants all listened to this in gloomy silence. 

	Which is not surprising in that we know Hoess's primary claim was false.


Frank, in spite
>of the revival of remorse which he professed to me yesterday, was
>overheard using some of the stock Nazi defensive rationalizations in a
>conversation with Rosenberg, within hearing of Kaltenbrunner, during the
>morning recess. 'They are trying to pin the murder of 2,000 Jews a day in
>Auschwitz on Kaltenbrunner- but what about the 30,000 people who were
>killed in the bombing attacks on Hamburg in a few hours? -They were also
>mostly women and children. -And how about the 80,000 deaths from atomic
>bombing in Japan? -Is that justice too?' Rosenberg laughed. 'Yes, of
>course- because we lost the war.']

>"Lunch Hour: [...] Frank said to me with some feeling: 'That was the low
>point of the entire trial- to hear a man say out of his own mouth that he
>exterminated 2 1/2 million people in cold blood-. That is something that
>people will talk about for a thousand years.' (Ibid. pp.264-266.)

>Now, there's a keeper! "That was the low point of the entire trial" and
>"that is something that people will talk about for a thousand years." And
>why _wouldn't_ Ho"ss be believed? I mean , it's not as if Ho"ss were the
>_only_ SS officer to admit to participating in the genocide of the Jews!
>Remember Ohlendorf, for instance? Or how about Franks' diary? You know,
>the parts that said in December 1941, there were 2,500,000 Jews in Poland
>and later in January, 1994, that perhaps 100,000 remained? Gee, were did
>all those Jews go? 

	To the east, into the Red Army, out of Poland, lots of places.  

>> To sum up, the defendants generally believed the testimony.  But there was
>> no point in cross examining because no one at Nuremberg was convicted on
>> the basis of atrocity stories alone.  No one hanged because of Auschwitz. 
>> As a matter of fact, Hoess was only at Nuremberg to testify in
>> Kaltenbrunner's defense.  Bad move.

>"KALTENBRUNNER: '...When he became Chief of the Securoty Police and SD and
>head of the RSHA on January 30, 1943, Kaltenbrunner took charge of an
>organization which included the main offices of the Gestapo, the SD and
>the Criminal Police ... During the period on which Kaltenbrunner was head
>of the RSHA, it was engaed in a widespread rogram of War Crimes and Crimes
>Against Humanity. These crimes included the mistreatment and murders of
>prisoners of war. Jews, commissars, and others who were thought to be
>ideologically hostile to the Nazi regime were reported to the RSHA, which
>had them transferred to a concentration camp and murdered ... The order
>for execution of commando troops was extended by the Gestapo to include
>parachutists while Kaltenbrunner was Chief of the RSHA. An order signed by
>Kaltenbrunner instructed the police not to interfere with attacks on
>bailed out Allied fliers...

>"The RSHA played a leading part in the 'final solution' of the Jewish
>question by the extermination of the Jews. A special section under Amt IV
>of the RSHA was established to supervise this program. Under its direction
>approximately 6 million Jews were murdered, of which 2 million were killed
>by the Einsatzgruppen and other units of the Security Police.
>Kaltenbrunner had been informed of the activities of these Einsatzgruppen
>when he was a Higher SS and Police leader, and they continued to function
>after he became Chief of the RSHA. The murder of approximately 4 million
>Jews in concentration camps ... was also under the supervision of the RSHA
>when Kaltenbrunner was head of that organization ...'

	Now that the EG are down to 1 million and A-B is down from 4 to 1
million ...  It looks like 6 is at least down to 2 million.  

>"Verdict: Guilty on counts 3 and 4. [War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.]
>"Sentance: Death by hanging. (Ibid. p.440.)

>No one was hanged because of Auschwitz? Wasn't Auschwitz a camp in the
>Nazi concentration camp system? Yes. Didn't Jews die there? Yes. Wouldn't
>that be covered under: "The murder of approximately 4 million Jews in
>concentration camps ... was also under the supervision of the RSHA when
>Kaltenbrunner was head of that organization?" Yes.

>To claim that no defendant at the IMT was "hanged because of Auschwitz" is
>egregious hair-splitting. Kramer, for instance, was hanged because of
>Bergen-Belsen (and I believe for his participation in homicidal gassings
>at Auscwhitz. See Nuremburg Doctors Trial.). Not to mention that Ho"ss, as
>a result of his trial in Poland, _was_ "hanged because of Auschwitz." 

	Because of WHAT particular crime at Auschwitz?  

>> The defendants were shown the same film of inmates dead of disease and
>> malnutrition, and then accepted the rest without question.  As have most
>> of us, most of the time.  Because, in the final analysis, Goering was
>> right.  Even if only 5% were true....

>Bullshit. In the "final analysis" they were tried, convicted, and executed
>(or imprisoned) for the deaths of 6 million Jews. Not to mention 6 million
>non-Jews in addition to other war crimes and crimes against humanity. 

	Then don't mention the other 6 million.  It is a touch late for you to
remember to bring them into it.  

>> As Bradley F. Smith points out, *Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg*, the
>> German lawyers seemed content on focussing on rebutting the accusation of
>> the Katyn Forest massacre. (p. 107)

>Perhaps. Not much else could be rubutted. The evidence against the Nazis
>was overwhelming and compelling. 

>> One final point.  The defendants in all of these trials were out to save
>> their lives. They were subject to a number of discovery restrictions which
>> would not apply in a normal case.  They could cross examine witnesses, but
>> they could not dispute every affidavit.

>And? Are you suggesting something here? That the Nazis were railroaded perhaps? 

	Given all the evidence you have presented that these people did not know
about what was going on, it is difficult to come to any other
conclusion.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 20:43:00 PDT 1996
Article: 47546 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:00:41 GMT
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BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) wrote:

>In article <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
> 
>>
>>BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) wrote:
>>
>>>Whatever the roots of the revisionist position, a revisionist stance must
>>>make some account of the persistence of belief in the Holocaust (or one
>>>of its component parts).  It's simply a necessary part of the discourse.
>>>   [ . . . . ]
>>>Revisionists, many here on a.r., describe the Holocaust as a psychological
>>>condition that Jews (or guilt-ridden liberals) have been afflicted themselves
>>>with.  (And by the way, this masterpiece of slander is implicit in every
>>>mention of "holohugger"--  no matter what the neologism's etymological root
>>>is.)
>>
>>        The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
>>guilt to explain.  All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
>>on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.
> 
>Though you don't permit others to put you with Bradley Smith, Ernst Zundel
>&tc.  Not a substantial double standard, but a double standard nonetheless.

	I have never met them.  I do not particularly remember having read
anything that any of them may have written.  I have certainly not
formulated any of my ideas based upon anything they have written.  

	So why should I be connected with them?  
 
>>[It is not possible to challenge the media's (?-accidental deletion, sorry)]
>>current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media.  In some
>>countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.
> 
>I'll reserve my doubts about this and get more to the point:
> 
>Isn't your view that the media represses revisionism evidence that any
>Holocaust `cult' must be guided by some ideology--  that is, a viewpoint
>that not everyone understands or is allowed to understand, that is maintained
>by physical force or cultural restraint?  As an athiest, surely you must
>cite religion as one of the institutions that enforce very powerful
>ideologies.  Nu?

	I have observed a fact.  I have not directly ascribed a cause to it in
this post.  

>>        I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
>>inspection.
> 
>So, there is a reason.  Indeed, you feel free to explain yourself:
> 
>>The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
>>would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
>>vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be.  The
>>"explanations" the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
>>happening again, are obviously transparent and false.
> 
>Really, why?  The Holocaust is put to all kinds of uses, yes-- but why are
>Nizkor and others hiding?

	Hiding what?  

>>        What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done.  Blood
>>money for Israel is another suggestion.  However at this point the
>>reasons suggested are speculation.
> 
>But why would you be permitted to speculate on the Holocaust story's origins
>and rise to power when a moment ago you said that any such arguments were
>virtually forbidden?  Why risk it?

	This is the United States.  Freedom of speech.  Use it or lose it.  
 
>>        Consider the difference in Russia.  They trot out their war heroes in
>>November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
>>year.
> 
>The memorial day for the Holocaust is once a year.

	It is difficult to find a week where there is not something about it on
the cable.  And I have never seen a skeptical or critical investigation
of the story, not once.  
 
>>       But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
>>war.
>>
>>        However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
>>and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war.  It
>>is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
>>As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
>>the loss of Texas and California.
 
>You should read Ehrlich's longer post, "Three Holocausts".  I am unable to
>summarize the whole of it, but he pointed out, that unlike other atrocities,
>an entire culture, specifically the culture of Eastern Europeans, was
>annihilated.  The Yiddish language being only one loss.  Neither the peoples
>of Russia nor Mexico nor Germany faced near-total eradication; nor were
>they forced to begin again with such radically discontinuity.

	As I have pointed out, it was no particular loss any more than the loss
of the Hun culture was a loss.  Things change.  BUT if Eastern European
cultures wish to bemoan the loss, that is their business.  But if that
is your context, perhaps the celebration should be for avoiding 45 years
of communism.  

	As for the German dialect, it is my understanding it is doing quite well
in NYC.  

	But I still do not see any particular cause of remembering such a loss
regardless of degree.  

>>        This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature. As  I
>>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>>day he died.
> 
>So you have diagnosed it;  one and the same with giving an account for it.
>It's similiar to the way homophobes deal with gays.  They simply repeat to
>themselves the following:

	I have given an analogy and nothing more.  You comparison is not of
interest.  
 
>>There is something very, very wrong with these people.  It needs help,
>>not encouragement.
> 
>So you do have an explanation for it-- almost identical to the one I offered
>above:  you believe that some people have too much emotional investment
>(& you hint political investment too, but this is conspiracy & you said. ..)
>in the Holocaust to listen to your version of events.  You've been saying it
>for a while now (& it was inevitable that you did).  

	I have given an analogy.  Do you consider it to be fallacious in same
manner?  

This has been the implicit
>critique you have been making;  otherwise, what point would there be in
>degrading people with `hologhugger'?

	I am open to the use of another name.  What would you suggest?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 20:43:01 PDT 1996
Article: 47550 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:17:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	You are doing well.  You know that the Jewish organizations gave 
>their
>>  statements in a very political, shall I say legalistic, manner that
>>  separated but did not condemn.

>	That's a lie.  Produce those "legalistic" statements.  You've made the 
>assertion, Matty poo, now prove it.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 


>>  And now of course you demand evidence of
>>  approval.

>	L'il Tommy, whose outright lies and blantent anti-Semitism, you defend 
>has claimed he can produce "hunreds" of examples of support.  I challenge him 
>to do so.

	He will take care of his statements and I will take care of mine.  
  
>>  	You sound like Bernie Nussbaum, noted Irish Catholic, saying "I didn't
>>  sign the requests" while failing to note that he never objected at any
>>  time to the use of the stamp of his name on the FBI file requests.  It
>>  happened on his watch, did it not?  Where does the buck stop?  I know,
>>  it never got here.  

>	You sound like Julius Streicher.

	A friend of yours?  	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 20:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47551 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:22:19 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> 	Plausible deniability was not invented by Nixon.  It goes back millenia.
>> 
>> 	As an early example -- "Yahweh ordered the genocide.  It's all his
>> fault."  And it continues to be amazing that the most self-aggrandizing
>> genocidal maniacs in recorded history complain when it may or may not
>> have happened to them.
>> 
>> 	It is difficult to imagine them complaining about Hitler who failed when
>> these genocidal maniacs write of complete success.  
>> 
>> 	And the worst of it is that they will not acknowledge their barbaric
>> history but rather elevate it to the sanctity that justifies the
>> continuing slaughter of the Arabs by the Israelies.  
>> 
>> 	There really are not too many ways you can recast genocide and say it is
>> not genocide.  
>> 	
>> 	The Jews are the descendants of the most genocidal people in recorded
>> history, period.  And it is their own history.  And that genocide is the
>> sole basis for their claim upon Israel today.  
>> 
>> 	They have no basis for objecting to failed genocidals attempts against
>> them.  

>Errrr... not that Matt giwer is an antisemite or anything, of course.

	Did I refer to something that is not documented in Israelite writings?  

	Or perhaps you really believe the "Yahweh made me do it" cop out.

	Which is it?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 20:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47555 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Matt Giwer fan club?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:19:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Keith Morrison (t08o@unb.ca) wrote:

>: Matt Giwer's favourite Rodgers and Hammerstein musical is clearly
>: "Annie Get Your Gun".  After all he does seem to have this odd
>: fixation on the song lyric "Anything you can do I can do better".

>It stands to reason that Myshkin's 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

favorite Rodgers and Hammerstein 
>musical would be "Annie Get Your Gun" -- because "Annie Get Your Gun"
>was written by Irving Berlin (well, the songs were; the book was by
>Herbert and Dorothy Fields).  But this raises an interesting question.

>At the web site http://www.mtix.com/sym/south.htm, there is an advertisement
>for the St. Louis Symphony which will be performing highlights of "Annie
>Get Your Gun" -- and the ad says that it's by Rodgers and Hammerstein.

>At the web site http://www.libertynet.org/area/calendar/events/august.html,
>there is a notice for a performance of "Annie Get Your Gun" -- and it
>says that the musical is by Irving Berlin.

>Now we have two pieces of mutually contradictory eyewitness evidence. 
>Does that prove that the musical "Annie Get Your Gun" doesn't exist?


>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 22:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47575 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:37:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> >> >Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>> >> >it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>> >> >Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle.  In
>> >> >this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>> >> >Socialist philosophy, is the highest
>> >> >embodiment of the human form, and at the other end is the Jewish race.  A
>> >> >number of lesser races are in between.
>> >>
>> >>         You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>> >> further.
>> >>
>> >>         I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>> >> everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.
>> 
>> >I AM RIGHT!  I AM GIWER!  Proof is irrelevant.  Documentation is irrelevant.
>> >Reasons are irrelevant.  You will be a-spam-inated.
>> 
>>         What you have attempted to do is set up a link between me and Stormfront
>> and then attack what Stormfront says as though I were saying it.
>> 
>>         As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>> Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>> democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>> work.  It is race neutral.

>Race neutral?  I'm sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>anything about National Socialism and its history.

	On one hand you talk about national socialism and then you say that
those who call themselves nazis would be surprised.  You need to learn
to think more precisely than that.  You may as well include
anti-semitism as part and parcel of communism is you are going to
indulge in such sloppy thinking.  
 
>>         Now just what is it you think you are doing save attacking your own
>> strawman?

>Stating facts.  What the hell do you think you're doing save trolling again?

	You need to learn much more than you know now.  

>I am Giwer of Borg.  Facts are irrelevant.  Prepare to be a-spam-inated.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

	At least you were prepared.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  1 22:00:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47576 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:39:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4qhp3b$ohv@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ruthsommer@aol.com
>(RuthSommer) wrote:


>> I think you are right on the button.  Believe as I do, or be censored! 
>> Agree with me,
>> or be driven off the newsgroup through harassment and vicious hate!
>> 
>> My impression, from reading so many of these kinds of vicious
>> anti-revisionist posts,
>> are that the LAST thing these people want is a free and open, rational
>> exchange of
>> opinions on the Holocaust.
>> 
>> Your 'Holoterrorist' expression is perfect.  Other lurkers here ought to
>> take this very
>> seriously.  What kind of a society are we living in, where freedom of
>> speech is so
>> scantily protected?  And why are Jewish people so apparently determined to
>> smash it?
> 
>BBZZZZZZTTTTTT! Wrong, but thanks for playing.
> 
>As a consolation prize, we're sending you a second working brain cell.
>Keep it up, and you might eventually end up with a full set.

	This does appear to be an excellant example of what she is talking
about.  Thank you for providing it so quickly.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47584 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Matt Giwer fan club?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:19:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
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References: <31b3860b.59f7@worldnet.att.net>  <4pteen$gds@news1.pa <4qj2f6$bvf@tribune.concentric.net> <4qjoo4$866@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qmc8h$o3c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4qo9kp$q5e@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4qrgt4$h9n@grivel.une.edu.au> <4qse8v$cjr@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <31D313FC.5870@unb.ca> <4qvs0b$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31D46E08.60F6@unb.ca> <4r434s$l3h@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31D6B503.7B63@unb.ca> <4r7322$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31D7FB8D.7160@unb.ca>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> >> >Why do you ask?  Anyone who takes a basic physics course that mentions
>> >> >Relativity is usually asked to calculate the effects using the
>> >> >transformation equations.
>> >>
>> >>         In the context in which you used it, it is meaningless.  Now that you
>> >> claim to have actually done the calculation at least once, it is clear
>> >> you knew it was meaningless.
>> 
>> >No, it was a joke, a play on the word "relative".  Comprende?
>> 
>>         The Lorentz-Fitzgerald transformations preceded the special theory of
>> relativity.

>No kidding, Sherlock.  However they are commonly associated with Special
>Relativity by people who have used them to calculate the various effects
>Einstein discovered.


>> >> >Didn't you have to do it when you took your BS?
>> >>
>> >>         Actually I learned of them and did my first calculations in high school.
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer's favourite Rodgers and Hammerstein musical is clearly
>> >"Annie Get Your Gun".  After all he does seem to have this odd
>> >fixation on the song lyric "Anything you can do I can do better".

>That should be, of course, the Irving Berlin musical.  (Thanks, Rich)
>Of course, this means that since two different versions now exist of who
>wrote it, the musical never actually existed.  Right, Matt?


>>         Did  better.


>Ah-one and ah-two (gesundheit!) and ah-three...

>Anything you can do I can do better
>I can do anything better than you
>  No you can't
>Yes I can
>  No you can't
>Yes I can
>  Bo you can't
>Yes I can yes I can yes I can!

>Any degree you've earned I earned it sooner
>I earned everything sooner than you
>  No you didn't
>Yes I did
>  No you didn't
>Yes I did
>  No you didn't
>Yes I did yes I did yes I did!

>Any field you're an expert, I know it better
>I know everything better than you
>  No you don't
>Yes I do
>  No you don't
>Yes I do
>  No you don't
>Yes I do yes I do yes I do!

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
	As noted, it was in the past tense for a proper statement of what I did.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47587 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 06:51:22 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Rumplestiltskin (ehrlich606@aol.com) wrote:

>: And yet he [Myshkin] still scores points. . . .

>Name one.

>: His lack of accuracy is more than compensated by his refusal to accept
>: counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>: authority.  

>His "lack of accuracy"?  That's an understatement if I've ever seen one.
>He has yet to be accurate on anything that I've seen.  You also have a
>serious misunderstanding of what an "appeal to authority" is.  If Myshkin
>says that CO2 is not an acid, my quoting a chemistry textbook to him 
>is not "an appeal to authority" -- it is a refutation of his claim.  If
>he says that HCN is from "coke flue gases" and therefore the crematoria
>would have put out significant amounts of HCN, and I point out that HCN
>is produced in the production, not the combustion, of coke, that is not
>an "appeal to authority" -- that is a refutation of his claim.  If Myshkin
>says that the number of deaths at Auschwitz has been revised downward
>from 4 million to 1 million and thus the total number of Holocaust deaths
>must be lowered by that amount, and I point out that Hilberg arrived at
>a total number of Holocaust deaths of at least 5.1 million of which
>1 million were from Auschwitz, I am not using Hilberg as an "appeal to
>authority" -- I am refuting Myshkin's claim.  If Myshkin claims that
>Israel has a written constitution and someone quotes to him the legal
>definition of a constitution and explains how Israel's Basic Laws do not
>meet that definition, that is not an "appeal to authority" -- that is
>a refutation of his claim.  If Myshkin claims that the term "United
>Nations" was not used prior to the founding of the current UN organization,
>and someone quotes a document from 1944 that uses the term "United 
>Nations", that is not an "appeal to authority" -- that is a refutation
>of his claim.  I could go on all day like this, but either you have my
>point or you probably never will.

>So I will repeat my request from above:  name a single valid point that
>Myshkin has made; name a single claim that he has made that was only
>rebutted by an appeal to authority.  Good luck, Jim.


	Sergeant Schutz!

	You are supposed to see nothing, know nothing and hear nothing.  

	You have only fulfilled the second of the three requirements.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47601 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At The Auschwitz Black Wall
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 03:15:47 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>The testimony of former Auschwitz prisoner Fabian
>[Quoted in "Auschwitz: the Proceedings Against Mulka and Others" by 
>Bernd Nauman, p. 292-3]:
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>The Pole Stachik rode into Block 28 on a bicycle and called out: 
>"Stretcher bearers! Two stretchers! One box! Two boxes!". If he said
>"one box", we knew it would be a small execution: one family with
>child. If he said "stretcher", then there was a big execution.
>Sometimes when we got there they had already been shot; but that
>only happened in small executions. When there were big executions
>we lined up in a corner of Block 11. Those who were selected were
>chased into the washroom and had to undress. The window was covered
>over with a blanket. In the yard under the window stood the staff
>of the SS. Everything went in double time. A certain Jakob took two
>prisoners by their arms and marched them over to the Black Wall. 
>Then we had to come running with the stretcher and stand behind the
>SS men who were doing the firing. When the prisoners were shot -
>they were shot in the head with a fairly silent Flobert gun - they
>fell over. I grabbed their hands or legs and put them on the
>stretcher. Then we ran to the canal in Block 10 and the stretcher
>as tilted so the bodies could fall off. While this was going on
>the two next ones were already being shot. Everything went very 
>quickly. The shooting of 100 prisoners did not take very long. Once
>the following happened: I was carrying the front end of the
>stretcher. Suddenly I heard a voice behind me: "Mr.
>Oberscharfuehrer, you didn't shoot well". Stiewitz had done the
>shooting, and he said: "Shut up, or you'll get it". We had to put
>down the stretcher, and Stiewitz once more shot him in the head.

	And the holy saint put his hand in the boiling oil and complained that
it was too cool.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47605 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JDL, Terrorists
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 02:29:33 GMT
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	From their own website...

BARZEL -- IRON 

     JDL upholds the principle of Barzel -- iron -- the need to both
move to help Jews everywhere and to change the Jewish image through
sacrifice and all necessary means -- even strength, force and violence.
The Galut image of the Jew as a weakling, as one who is easily stepped
upon and who does not fight back is an image that must be changed. Not
only does that image cause immediate harm to Jews but it is a
self-perpetuating thing. Because a Jew runs away or because a Jew allows
himself to be stepped upon, he guarantees that another Jew in the future
will be attacked because of the image that he has perpetuated. JDL wants
to create a physically strong, fearless and courageous Jew who fights
back. We are changing an image, an image born of 2,000 years in the
Galut, an image that must be buried because it has buried us. We train
ourselves for the defense of Jewish lives and Jewish rights. We learn
how to fight physically, for it is better to know how and not have to,
than have to and not know how. 

	To which is added...

The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
are Jewish sources. 

	Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>from  their own site.  We all know that it what it is.  

	It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.

Although this poem was written over 20 years ago, it is just as relevant
today.
              In fact, JDL leaders have chosen it as our official
response
                  to the recent convention of the Southern Baptists!

                                 Never Again

                              By Shmuel Ben Stern

                         The time has come for battle,
                            Our lips must not be still,
                            Jews together marching
                             With one gigantic will.

                          No longer do we sit and wait
                           And turn the other cheek,
                          The strength we find in unity
                           Will help protect our weak.

                           The greatest sin is silence,
                         Our brethren's pain we share,
                          To them we send a message
                          That we are Jews who care.

                        When Moses, our great teacher,
                              Saw a Jew who bled,
                           He didn't petition pharaoh,
                          He smote the Egyptian dead.

                          The order that G-d gave him
                             Was to the tyrant show
                          The message to deliver was
                               Let My People Go!

                             Maccabees and zealots
                              Did what we must do,
                         There are no fears of violence
                              To save another Jew.

                         And now some people caution
                          That we must slow our pace
                        For the goodwill of the Christian
                           And the image of our race.

                          Well, we care not for image
                            Nor for the velvet glove,
                         Our history has been bloodied
                            By acts of Christian love.

                           Crusades and inquisitions,
                            Accept the cross or die,
                           If we reject non-violence,
                          Our enemies will know why.

                            Our past is full of heroes
                          Who died that we might live,
                        Their image that you read about
                            Is the image that we give

                        Let Jews the whole world over
                            Raise their sons to men
                              Certain of their future
                         When we say "Never Again!"


   Shmuel Ben Stern is a charter member of the Los Angeles Chapter of
the Jewish
                                 Defense League.



     Return to JDL in America Table of Contents

     Return to JDL Home Page 

	It also appears they want this man dead.

JDL in America

                         David Cole: Monstrous Traitor


By Robert J. Newman

He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
deception. Just like a
low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
his venom to
innocent victims.

This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
denier of
the Six Million Jews.

Cole is a young Jewish man with an evil plan: To alter history and to
deny
documented facts.
A revolting and horrible monster is this so-called Jew.

He rubs shoulders with the neo-nazi criminals who do their evil deeds
for Adolf Hitler
and who, to this day, continue to spread anti-Semitism through the guise
of Holocaust
revisionist denial.

What is a David Cole? Is it a sickness? Is it a mental disease? Is Cole
merely a human
parasite who clings to his ardent Nazi supporters and friends who back
his ideas
whole-heartedly? After all, this Cole mania that the media have played
on, don't you
think it's time that we flush this rotten, sick individual down the
toilet, where the rest of
the waste lies? One less David Cole in the world will certainly not end
Jew-hatred, but
it will have removed a dangerous parasitic, disease-ridden bacteria from
infecting
society.

David Cole laughs in the face of his own people. He takes pride in
seeing Jewish
Holocaust survivors suffer. He laughs and snickers when someone mentions
the
words Auschwitz, gas chambers and crematoriums.

Cole's denial is really a denial toward his own people. He hates the
very fact that he
was born into this world a Jew. But more than anything else, his denial
is an
enormous crime against humanity.

This despicable low-life beast is worse than the Julius Streichers and
Joseph
Goebbels. He is more evil than they were-because he is a Jew! This
pathetic excuse
for a human being is a neo-Nazi traitorous sell-out to his own Jewish
people.

An evil monster like this does not deserve to live on this earth. All
the news stories
about his life only encourage Cole to feed his sick ego even more,
bringing attention
to his depraved lifestyle. Cole is an abominable psychopath who must be
stopped.

The word revisionist is a direct insult to the Jewish community, to
Holocaust survivors
and to the memory of the millions murdered. It is especially insulting
to us Jews who
are out to crush these vicious Holocaust-denying Nazis.

Just as we must get rid of this monster, Cole, we must also get rid of
the word
"revisionism" from our vocabulary. This awful word and Cole, too, must
be eliminated
altogether. There is no argument. There needs to be no more debates,
only the
elimination of the Holocaust deniers.

Cole is a sickness, a horrible aberration that is spreading like a
cancerous sore. David
Cole is being used by and manipulated by the neo-Nazis to further
promote their
agendas of hate.

He is a Jewish puppet for the Ernst Zundels, Bradley Smiths, Willis
Cartos and all the
white supremacist, Nazi-loving, murderous gangster thugs. They would
love to see all
the Jews of the world gassed and incinerated again in the burning
furnaces of
Treblinka, leaving smoldering ashes in its wake.

This world would be a happier place, indeed, when all the Jew-baiters
and Jew-haters
have disappeared, especially the most vicious hater of them all, David
Cole. 




     Return to JDL in America Table of Contents

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	And an interesting report that is not denied.

Around The World

                             The Yellow Journalist


When Village Voice reporter Robert I. Friedman went to Israel earlier
this year to gather
information to discredit the settlement movement, he couldn't wait to
step foot in
Tapuah, a settlement founded and populated by the followers of Rabbi
Meir Kahane,
of blessed memory. Friedman was there to "get the goods" on those
Zionist
hoodlums; and if he couldn't get the goods, he would make them up - as
he has been
known to do in his writings about politically incorrect Jews, which
include Rabbi
Kahane, Orthodox Jews, pro-Israel organizations and, of course, JDL.

Friedman, who is not Jewish but who makes a living off the last name of
his father by
writing stories with a Jewish connection, says that while he was leaving
the
settlement, an armed group of settlers poured out of a yeshiva and
confronted him. He
says one member of the group then asked him his name. When he answered
"Robert," the group allegedly knocked him to the ground and proceeded to
beat and
kick him. Friedman says during the beating, the settlers "were
practically yelling out
quotations from my book [about Rabbi Kahane] - 'You wrote this! You
wrote that!'"

Friedman, who didn't fight back, is said to have staggered into a local
police station
and attempted to have his attackers arrested. When he told the desk
sergeant his
sorrowful tale about the terrible Kahane boys, the officer looked at him
and said,
"Rabbi Kahane was a great man." No charges were filed. 

     Return to Around the World

     Return to JDL Home Page 

	And perhaps another side to the assassination.

JDL Around The World

                            Memories of a year ago:
                JDL Presents "Ig-noble" Prize to Rabin & Peres

By Irv Rubin, JDL National Chairman

On the seventh night of Chanukah early last December, I sat at the
kitchen counter
finishing my second helping of my wife's delicious latkes and watching
my sons as
they opened their gifts when the phone rang.

"Hey, Irv, Happy Chanukah," chimed the familiar voice with the New York
accent. It
was one of my best friends -- Fern Sidman -- calling from her home three
thousand
miles away. She wanted to let me know that our New York chapter had
decided to
send 10 of its best Jewish activists to Oslo, Norway, to protest the
Nobel Peace Prize
ceremony in which Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, Foreign
Minister Shimon
Peres and PLO chief terrorist Yassir Arafat were to receive this coveted
honor.

Fern asked me if I was going to join them. (I had been doing some heavy
mental
wrestling since I found out about the plans a couple days earlier.) On
one hand, I felt
that as JDL's national chairman I had the obligation to accompany them.
On the other
hand, I was hesitant about embarking on this mammoth journey just to
make a point in
lieu of the deafening silence of organized Jewry. Then again, how could
I miss a
chance to confront Peres (as I did at the recent Israel Film Festival in
L.A.) and Rabin.
There was no doubt in my mind that in response to the insane and
suicidal "peace
process" that each day was taking the lives of Israelis at the hands of
Arabs - -
Hamas? Islamic Jihad? Who cares what they call themselves? They're all
Jew-hating
murderers - - we had to stand up and cry out, STOP THIS INSANITY!

At this point I realized there was only one answer: Yes! I would travel
to Norway and
join my fellow activists in protest. Fern said from the start she knew I
would decide to
go. (It's a truism that friends know us better than we know ourselves.)
When I informed
close JDL associates in L.A. of my plans, one of them said he had
accrued enough
frequent flyer miles to make the trip with me at his own expense. I only
had a couple of
days to make travel arrangements, borrow winter clothes (My coats and
long
underwear stayed in Montreal when my parents moved the family to
Southern
California 30 years ago.), and confer with New York leader Mike
Guzofsky.

Mike informed me that Rabbi Avi Weiss of the Bronx's Hebrew Institute of
Riverdale
would be in Oslo with two of his cohorts. My first reaction was "great,
the more the
better." However, Mike said Weiss had a different agenda; his plans were
to lambaste
Norway, the Nobel Prize committee and the master terrorist Arafat. Sure,
Norway
shouldn't welcome the Peace Prize triad and the Nobel committee made an
egregious
error in its selection and Arafat is lower than a sewer rat. What person
of normal
intelligence could disagree? But that's Avi Weiss's style: Always play
it safe. Get as
much press as you can, but don't upset or alienate the broad spectrum of
Jewry. 

On the other hand, JDL feels the obligation to save Jewish lives. The
pain of one Jew
is our pain, too. JDL speaks only the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth,
even though we don't win popularity contests. The JDL faction would base
its
protests on the teachings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory. Rabbi
Kahane
often spoke of the Talmudic admonition, "He who is merciful unto the
cruel is destined
to be cruel unto the merciful." We were going to Norway - not to
demonstrate against
Arafat, but to loudly declare the authentic truth: Rabin is a traitor.
His unholy alliance
with the enemies of the Jewish people is directly responsible for more
Jewish deaths
and the abnegation of the Land of Israel as God promised it to us. 




Subsequent to discussing our angle on the upcoming demonstrations with
Mike, it
was time to leave. Twelve JDL activists got together in New York to
catch a KLM flight.
During the flight JDL members held a strategy session and carefully
planned the
agenda for the next three days.

Our plane arrived in Oslo on Friday, Dec. 9, an especially cold winter
afternoon. We
were immediately greeted by throngs of international media who had
gathered there to
cover this historic event. Also on the welcoming committee were the
Norwegian
Federal Police, who ushered us into an investigation room. Their curious
greeting was
Welcomen to Norway, Ya, followed by we know why you are here and we hope
your
protest will be peaceful.

We assured the politi (police) that we are "violently opposed to
violence" and, like Avi
Weiss, we were in Oslo to make our point. Sort of. Of course we
neglected to disclose
the contents of a press release faxed to all media that said we were
planning to stage
loud and raucous demonstrations against the Israeli traitors who, since
the infamous
handshake with Arafat on the White House lawn, have caused the death of
hundreds
of Jews. The hands of Rabin and Peres, we proclaimed, are drenched with
Jewish
blood. After our press release was circulated, no media representative
ever got us
confused with any other group.

After we left the airport, we checked into our modest hotel and began
preparations for
the coming Shabbat. It was decided that Yaakov Ben-Shlomo and Moshe
Cohen
would be dispatched to the Great Synagogue of Oslo, where, according to
reliable
sources, leftist/socialist Rabin would be putting in an appearance at
Friday night
services.

Our articulate warriors were preparing to tell Rabin what we thought of
him and his
so-called "peace process" as the rest of us discussed the propriety of
employing this
confrontational tactic. For Torah-observant Jews, the decision to
sanction such
behavior at a synagogue, a house of worship to the Almighty, especially
on the holy
Sabbath, was excruciatingly difficult. After much deliberation, we
concluded that such
behavior was morally justified, given the brutal fact that Jewish lives
are being
compromised by the policies of Rabin and the Torah precept, "Thou shalt
not stand
idly by thy brother's blood" (Leviticus 19:16). And so Yaakov and Moshe
departed on
their mission.

As soon as they spotted Rabin the Rat, our brave warriors brazenly told
him -
face-to-face inside the shul - that he was committing treason against
the Jewish
people and that he was no better than a Nazi. Angered at the outburst in
his
synagogue, the Chief Rabbi of Oslo ordered the Norwegian police to
arrest the two.
Shame, shame on this so-called rabbi who disgraced himself in front of
the Torah and
behaved in a most reprehensible manner. He handed over two Torah-true
Jews to the
gentile authorities, who detained them in a prison cell for most of the
Sabbath. Upon
their release, we reveled in their heroism. Yaakov and Moshe are true
Jewish activists.
They acted from their hearts and not for the cameras.

On Saturday, we were busy making preparations for our major
demonstration during
the actual awards ceremony just hours away. In the meantime, Avi Weiss
held a lovely,
well-choreographed demonstration for the press.

Stand back, boys, and watch a real demonstration. During the ceremony,
in front of
thousands of onlookers, the 12 audacious JDLers burned a larger than
life-size effigy
of the Israeli prime minister. Our placards and banner told the world
that the Nobel
Peace Prize was actually the Ignoble Prize given to Rabin and Peres for
high treason
and to Arafat for ruthless, heinous acts of murder.

Although Norwegian police summarily arrested three of us (including me),
our militant
display provoked a far greater reaction from the usually restrained Avi
Weiss. Not only
did he try to block the many cameras covering the historic event from
turning their
attention to us, but also he attempted to tear down our banner, signs
and burning
effigy. Silly Avi. The spectacle he made of himself only attracted more
attention to our
protest. CNN and the worldwide media gave extensive coverage to the
burning effigy.
Israel TV broadcast the whole demonstration without comment. Ironically,
Weiss was
swept along on our coattails and got credit for our controversial and
brazen efforts to
spotlight the sham and hypocrisy of Israel's top leaders.

(For any reader who is sitting there in shock and disbelief, he or she
can obtain a
video of our demonstration and Weiss's blatantly anti-Jewish behavior
for $39.00. It
will be noted that JDL members conducted themselves on a higher moral
level by
refusing to physically respond to Weiss.)

I spent five hours in a jail cell in Oslo. If my count is correct, this
was the 37th arrest of
my JDL career; I must admit it was the most pleasant and comfortable
incarceration
that I've ever experienced. The jails in Oslo were clean and void of the
normal riffraff
we normally associate with the American penal system. Anyway, we were
released
without the filing of charges.

Soon it was Sunday. The awards had been presented. JDL successfully made
our
voices be heard. It was now time to board the plane for our flight home.
While on the
plane, my mind could not help thinking about the whirlwind of the
previous days'
events.

Twelve dedicated JDL activists returned to the United States, secure in
the knowledge
that we tried our best to inform the world that the treasonous
government of Israel is
taking a course that will annihilate Israel - its land and its people.
Our last resort is to
beseech the Almighty for guidance and mercy, and be comforted by the
fact that
Rabbi Kahane is smiling down at his loyal followers and students from
the Gates of
Heaven. 

     Return to Around the World

     Return to JDL Home Page









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The New Ball Game (Was: Clarification Requested)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:12:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 109
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:15:47 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4r7nd9$kfq@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard
>Schultz) wrote:

>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>: >People die from carelessness with HF check out sci.chem, if you don't
>>: >believe me.  HCN is very dangerous; it would be irresponsible of me to
>>: >advocate that you handle pure HCN in the manner you suggest.

>>: 	At this point it would be irresponsible for anyone to listen to you
>>: without independent verification.  

>>Could someone please explain to me in what sense the last sentence above
>>is not a "personal attack"?  If it is a personal attack, could someone
>>please explain to me on what basis Myshkin feels that it's okay to respond
>>to personal attacks on him with hundred-line junk posts, but objects to
>>a procmail shell that sends back his email unread?  Just curious.

>Hmmm... this is indeed a very puzzling question, Mr. Schultz.  I have
>observed, however, that Messrs Ehrlich and Thomas seem have become the
>self-appointed arbiters of the new, improved, revisionist netiquette. 

>And I am confident that one of them will enlighten us as to how  we
>have erred by daring to:

>a) characterize these words as a personal attack (as all reasonable
>people would) and/or 

>b) question the propriety of any behaviour in which Myshkin sees fit
>to engage (as all reasonable people would)

>I had heard rumours to the effect that there was reform afoot in the
>"revisionist" ranks.  Talk of civilized discourse, intellectual
>honesty, personal responsibility, proper citations of text,
>presentation of evidence to support claims, retractions and apologies
>when called for - all that good stuff, you know.

>Alas, it seems they found that Myshkin and Moran were ... hmmm....
>shall we say "resistant" to reform.  M&M - as we all know - have been
>the fearless frontline footsoldiers recycling revisionist rhetoric for
>longer than many of us would care to remember.

>As you can well imagine, this presented a quandary at RHQ, because
>they are committed to presenting a united front.  They could brook no
>division in the ranks.  Then one of their bright lights stumbled
>across the strategy used by the Z-factory.  You've probably noticed it
>in the Z-grams.  They take truth to the cleaners by running it through
>their own special language laundry. You know how Ingrid talks when
>she's in one of her loquacious expository moods - she just winds
>herself up and abracadbra! black is white and white is black!

>It didn't take long to work out a strategy using this technique. They
>developed a buddy system:  M&M could carry on as usual; when a post of
>theirs is given the treatment it so richly deserves, the buddy
>(usually one of the arbiters) rushes in, waves his magic wand over the
>words and abracadabra "demeaning language" becomes "skepticism" and
>"moranic neologisms" become "legitimate terms" - and to further
>bolster the new reality, we get blamed for their indiscretions, i.e.
>it is pointed out that whoever dared to give the post the treatment it
>deserves is in fact guilty of one MorM sin or another.  Neat, huh?!

>You are probably asking yourself, "How can they say such things when
>there is a virtual mountain of documented evidence proving
>indisputably that Moran is twit and Myshkin's a troll?"

>Well, we all know the answer to that:  "Evidence, what evidence? It's
>all very questionable.  There was never a twit and never a troll.  M&M
>are outstanding paragons of virtue.  Because! We! Say! So!." 

>Well, Mr. Ehrlich did invite us to "Play Ball!"  And after all, this
>_is _ "revisionism." 

>Hope this helps, Mr. Schultz

>Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Schultz
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:54:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>Mr. Giwer is to be commended for conducting himself  throughout this
>post without the use of unwarranted childish, disrespectful
>namecalling and/or gratuitous profanities and invective.  

	Do you really think I give a damn about your opinion?  

>His civilized tone was appreciated.  Today he was wearing the colours
>of the  

>In <4r9lh8$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, you are off to a poor start.  Your friend, Mr.
>Ehrlich has on a few occasions commented that it is "difficult to know
>the players without a program."  USENET posting tradition has
>developed a way of addressing this problem.  That method is to include
>the names of _all_ the "speakers".  This is known as providing
>"attributions"

>In this instance you have deleted the name of one of the speakers,
>i.e. Mr. Ehrlich, whose words can be found within the text of your
>post    [Ball 1]

>Oh, and not only have you failed to note that Mr./Ms SF924 - who -
>after all _is_ hosting this game -  is one of the players, you have
>deleted SF924's text which provides the context for this game.  Very
>bad move, Mr. Giwer.   Sorry.   [Strike 1]

	Suddenly editting is not a good idea?  If I edit holohuggers complain.
If I do not edit holohuggers complain.  Which way do you folks want it?


>>>"Afternoon Session: Goering, Ribbontropm and Hess had a great laugh over
>>>the reading of Goering's telephone conversation with Ribbontrop on the day
>>>of Hitler's triumphant entry into Vienna, describing the whole thing as a
>>>lark., with birds twittering, etc. Then the hilarity in the dock suddenly
>>>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>>>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

>>	We note here by AMERICAN troops, therefore we do not expect to find any
>>mention of gas chambers or human skin as we now know those things did
>>not exist.  

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, your point has no relevance to the text you are
>purporting to address.     [Strike 2]

	What do these words mean to you.  

>>>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>>>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

	As they were found by American troops.  Tbey found none in territories
they did not liberate.  

>>>Streicher: "...keeps watching, immobile ecept for an occaisinal
>>>squint...as human skin lampshade is shown, Streicher says, 'I don't
>>>believe that'...

>>	And of course he was correct in not believing it.  

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, your assertion is unfounded.   [Strike 3]

	As you know, there was never a human skin lampshade found by anyone.  It
was only claimed at the IMT for professional reasons.  In other words
you are ignorant of the subject.  

>We are "Playing Ball!" are we not, Mr. Ehrlich?  Well, the umpire has
>just called it, Mr. Giwer. Sorry, you know the rules: 3 Strikes and
>you're out.  

	As you are ignorant of the subject at hand, how can you know?  

>[tsk tsk tsk many more Strikes deleted]

	Rather you merely declare victory based upon what you do not know.  	

>>>And? Are you suggesting something here? That the Nazis were railroaded perhaps? 

>>	Given all the evidence you have presented that these people did not know
>>about what was going on, it is difficult to come to any other
>>conclusion.  

>Ah, I see that it is just as well, because Mr. Giwer has reached a
>highly erroneous and totally unsupported conclusion.

>Better luck, next inning, Mr. Giwer.   But then again perhaps you were
>only "pitch hitting" for the cobbler.   And who knows, maybe _he_ will
>decide to return to the game.  But thanks for playing.  And for being
>so civil.  I'm sure we shall meet again.  Maybe you'd like to brush up
>on the rules while you are sitting on the bench.

>Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Van Alstine and Mr/Ms SF924 to let them
>know that the pitch-hitter struck out.  And to Mr. McFee who is also
>waiting for Mr. Ehrlich to return on an adjacent field.

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

	Yes, fatbroad, you have done it again, demonstrated that you are as
ignorant of the current version of the holocaust myth as you are of HTML
or anything else that would in fact earn the co-webmaster title.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:14:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4r9mac$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4qibuj$o2h@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:


>>         So one of the stories goes, there were SS men detailed to fake all the
>> mail. 
>> 
>>         I actually heard that one on a PBS production.  
>> 
>>         Obviously they had complete dossiers on these people from which to
>> create personal details and samples of handwriting for their expert
>> forgeries.

>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>How much of a dossier do you need to write, "Everything is fine here.
>We're working hard, and eating well." (Or something like that.)

	How about the names and addresses of who to mail them to at least?  And
then the handwriting samples.  Or would you think nothing amiss if you
received such a letter in the wrong handwriting calling you by the wrong
name and arriving at an address a few houses down the street?  

	One would certainly expect to find such files some place.
 
>As I stated before, I have SEEN letters like that. I have held them in my
>hand, seen the stamps and the dates on them.

	Ah, good to know that you have seen letters recieved by JEWISH family
members who were not taken.  Can you explain this?  
 
>Why is that so difficult to believe? The SS (and the Nazis in general) had
>a vested interest in keeping the general populace calm. These letters were
>an attempt to do so.

	Why would you not realize the problems that I have pointed out?  Why do
you insist upon believing a story that is patently false?  

	If it was the result of a mass round up of Jews, who were the family
members receiving the letters?  If they were immediately gassed who had
all the information to continue these forgeries for months to years?  

	You have a fine story but it does not stand up to even the minimal
scrutiny.  

 




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:15:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>  
>>  	Beyond that, stop reaching.  What in fact happened in the US was
>>  correctly described here, Jewish leaders "distanced themselves" which
>>  means they did not want to be associated with but refused to condemn the
>>  terrorism of Kahane and the JDL.  Or are you really such a novice that
>>  you have no idea what "distance" means in political terms?  Or do you
>>  think there are people here so inexperienced that they will buy your cop
>>  out for the terrorist organization, the JDL?  

>	Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts.  What were the 
>statements and who made them.  You have made the assertions, now prove 
>them.  Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L'il Tommy that the 
>Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a "Jewish organization."

>	Let's see where you stand, Matty poo.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:53:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rah6o$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57247 alt.revisionism:47623

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r7t85$r2l@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>>>>>Rich, I suggest adding Ricardo "Autocyberretromoderationbot" Gonzalez to
>>>>>your killfile. 

>>>>Thanks.

>>>>>As for Giwer, he is so obviously an asshole that I encourage him to
>speak
>>>>>out. Gord controls him, you know.

>>>>But, I'm Gordon McFeee...

>>>You may be Gordon McFeee, but I'm Gord McFee and *I* control Giwer.  He is
>>>my obedient little puppy.

>>Yeah, but just remember McFeestein, this is only temporary contratroll
>>that you have been granted.  (Just wait till it's my turn, folks.) And
>>btw, McFeestein, what colour is your (parachute and) decoder ring finger
>>today, eh?

>Excuse me, that's Sir McFeestein, I'll have you know (me and Richard Gere). 
>I know it is only temporary contratroll (great word by the way) that I have
>been granted, but I fear it may be permanent.  See, the troll's unrequited
>love may yet do him in.  'Tis a pity to see.

>As to the ring, it's a lovely shade of mauve.


>--
>Gord McFee


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 




>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:56:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57248 alt.revisionism:47624

pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 28 Jun 1996 06:48:05 GMT, ricardo@paranoia.com (Ricardo Hector
>Gonzales) wrote:

>>Unfortunately, most Jewish groups that started from noble and honest
>>roots have degenerated into PC organizations that only care about 
>>promoting propaganda and silencing ideas that disagree with their
>>position.
>>
>>-Ric
>>
>>P.S. I am a Jew

>Mr. Gonzales, would you like to tell me which ideas is it that Jewish
>Organizations are trying to silence?? Hmm, I would really like to
>know, and while you are at it could you tell us the positions of the
>different Jewish Organizations positions and how they differ from
>those ideas they are trying to silence. Oh, and please tell me just
>what propaganda is being promoted.

>Pat.
>P.S. who cares.

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47626 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:40:31 GMT
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system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:

>In article <4r53qh$kl1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, 
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com quotes:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>[Ken's well done satire deleted]

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: When I said it
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>
>>	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

>When you said what?  The quote that Ken et al were making fun of required
>no legal expertise and as far as I could see had nothing to do with the 
>below quote.

	When I said the Nuremberg trials were kangaroo courts that did not pass
muster in any civilized country.  What did you think I was talking
about?  

>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
>>had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
>>our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
>>international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
>>post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>
>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 

>>	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  

>In other words you think that Goering et al were guilty as hell
>even though there was little to no legal justification for the 
>Nurenburg trials and punishments.

	I KNOW they were not given fair trials by US or British standards.  

	I KNOW the convictions would be overturned in a heartbeat on appeal in
the US.  

	Guilt was determined by a method unacceptable in any civilized country.


	Do you have a problem with those statements?  If so, what?  

	Unlike the Nuremberg "court" they were innocent until proven guilty.
They were never proven guilty by any civilized standard of law.
Therefore, they are legally innocent.  

	Next question.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47627 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:40:52 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47627 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57269

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r3jvb$a9e@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>[deleted]

>>Quite simple, really; it's part of a Giwerundian Self-Examination Mantra.
>>The speaker may have recently attended a Giwerundian Encounter Session,
>>and the phrase may have stuck in his
>>consciousness (in the G. sense) as being particularly
>>helpful.

>You mean he has a problem with his G. spot?  Is that why he seeks to pillory
>Hilary?

>>>Of course, I have no idea what the "Gang of Six" is.

>>An invention. At the time your sample initiated the phrase,
>>there were Seven in the Gang of Eight, not Six.

>Whew.  I thought there were eight in the Gang of Six.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                                              
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47628 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:42:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4qqgbq$7fk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>> Mark Van Alstine wrote on18 Jun 1996 
>> 
>> > My question to you, Mr. Allen, was did YOU actually carry out a
>> >thourough examination of the ENTIRE floor where the introduction columns
>> would have been  anchored? 
>> 
>>     No.  I posted the following before:
>> 
>> >> I do not know if there are any bolt holes anywhere on >>the floor. 
>> >>You do not know if there are any bolt holes on the floor.
>> >> I doubt that there are. 
>> >>You assert that there are. 
>>  
>>      and the following
>> 
>> >> At this point all you and I should be able to agree upon is that
>> >> if you are right about your columns and the floor is in place, 
>> >> we should find your bolt holes.  
>> >> That is, either the bolt holes are there or the 
>> >>floor  isn't.
>>   
>> >How did you copme to your "understanding" of the state of the 
>> >floor, Mr. Allen? Idle speculation or research? 
>>
>> I discussed the state of the floor with several individuals
>> who had the interest and integrity to actually visit the
>> site.  

>And _you_ accuse _me_ of making specious claims, Mr. Allen? Tsk tsk. Who,
>extactly, are these "several individuals" who actually visited the ruins
>of Krema II's L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen? 

>> Those who had checked stated that the floor exists.

>Are you confirming, Mr. Allen, that _you_ have no personal knowledge about
>the state of the floor of Krema II's L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen? That you are
>relying on annoymous and unpublished accounts to base your assumptions on?
>You do realize, Mr. Allen, how suspect this all appears? 

>> Furthermore, I believe that the drainage system works and I
>> known that the inside walls are generally intact. 

>And your basis for such assumptions, Mr. Allen? 
> 
>> This would indicate that the original floor is still there waiting for
>> somebody to find bolt holes in it.

>Given that you are relying previous unclear assumptions, Mr. Allen, one
>might be pardoned for being skeptical of your assumption, yes?  Perhaps
>you would care to  walk through _all_ your assumption, citing all
>corrobarating evidence,  step-by-step for us? 

>> >> Of course, the amazing point of all this is that neither remains
>> >> of little chimneys or bolt holes on the floor have ever been 
>> >> found.  
>> 
>> >Considering that the "little chimneys" were probably brick, 
>> >do you find this suprising Mr. Allen? How can you tell the 
>> >bricks from a little chimney apart from bricks in rubble? Or from >bricks
>> in a pile of other bricks elsewhere? 

>> Yes, it is suprising.  The bricks, (if that is what you want
>> to claim the chimneys were made of) would have been
>> cemented to the roof both to hold them in place and to
>> create a water tight seal to keep rain and snow from
>> going into the room below. 

>And. Mr. Allen? Are you asserting that no indications that these "little
>chimneys" now exist on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. And that because
>of this said "little chimneys _never_ existed? Is _that_ what your trying
>to say, Mr. Allen? 

>Then please explain the photo of Krema II, taken by the Bauleitung, that
>_clearly_ shows three "little chimneys" on the roof of L.Keller 1
>(_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a). I await what must be a very
>illuminating answer....

>> >But let us not forget, Mr. Allen, that there is a photograph of three 
>> >of the "little chinmeys" on the roof of L.Keller 1 taken by the SS; th 
>> >ere are Allied aerial photos of four "little chimneys" on the roof of
>> > L.Keller 1; that the inventory receipt for Krema II shows four 
>> >"Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrivhtung" (wire mesh introduction devices) and
>> >four "Holzblenden" (wooden covers); and the multiople eyewitness 
>> >testimonies confirming their existance and installation. Given all this, 
>> >Mr. Allen, your bickering over bolt holes and such appears rather 
>> > anti-climatic. To say the least.  
>>
>> We have gone over this before, ie. the issue of the relative value 
>> of physical evidence vs. other types of evidence.  

>And you have avoided giving an acceptable answer, Mr. Allen. In fact, it
>appears that you have _avoided_ given a straight answer _whenever_ you
>paint yourself into a corner....

>Would you please address my origional questions, Mr. Allen? Or will you
>now go into G*wer-Troll mode and suck your head back into your shell,
>spouting sophmoric drivel and insults, instead? That _would_ be
>dissapointing, Mr. Allen. (Not particularly unexpected, but dissapointing
>nonetheless.) 

>> I have asked you this question once before; If you have a picture of a
>wall with a hole showing in it but you can inspect the wall and there is
>NO hole, 
>> what do you believe, hole or no hole? 

>I _believe_, Mr. Allen, that you are substituing sophistry for honest and
>straightforward answers in support of your assertions. In short, Mr.
>Allen, you are dodging the questions put to you. 

>> That is, I believe, the basis of the debate between Revisionists and 
>> Exterminationists. Of course there are several pictures of the roof of 
>> Leichenkeller where NO vent holes can be seen and
>> where they would have shown if they were there

>Perhaps you would care to comment further on this Mr. Allen? After, of
>course, you have addressed the numerable questions _already_ put to you
>that you have so artlessly tried to evade....

>Mark

>posted/e-mailed

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47631 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:04:56 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r7648$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>In article <4qt9ve$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>>said:

>>>>
>>>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>>>[about the alleged harassment of Gutless Giwer]

>>>>>>And I have never seen you identify any of the people, besides Marduk,
>who
>>>>>>you are accusing of harrassing your family (and Marduk's "harassment"
>>>>>>seems to consist of one or two e-mail messages sent to your son). 
>Please
>>>>>>provide evidence that any of the other regular participants have
>harassed
>>>>>>your family, or withdraw your claim.

>>>>>That's because there was no harassment and no e-mail to his son.  But
>>>Giwer
>>>>>knows that.

>>>Note that for the seventh time, Giwer does not deny that the harassment
>was
>>>a lie on his part.


>>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>>>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>>>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and
>post
>>>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>>>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of
>this
>>>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>>>possible, it is feared by him.  

>>>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt


>Note that once again, the gutless liar Giwer does not deny that he harassed
>himself and tried to blame others.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                       
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47634 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for "battle" against evil Christians
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:01:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>> Then there is the clickable from the Nizkor site, "The Jewish
>>> Defense League".
>>
>>The Zuendelsite, IHR web site, and CODOH web site are also clickable
>>from the Nizkor site.  Do you also assume that we support them as
>>well?  I think you must be confused, Mr. Moran, as to the meaning of
>>an "other sites" page.  Let me try to explain:  it provides links to
>>other sites.
>>
>>Hope this helps.

>	Jamie, I notice you avoided comment on the solicited
>clarification in the intro to the JDL declaration. The one about your
>referrence to a photograph of Marc Lemire and your tacit disclaimer
>against violence. What I think, is, Nizkor is trying to be cute by
>employing an inverted suggestion. 

	Perhaps Nizkor is "distancing" itself from the JDL.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47644 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and "asshole"
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:46:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:

>  
>>  First, differentiate between goals and methods.  Some people resort to
>>  force to
>>  stop same from coming at them.  That's not my usual style (I have the
>>  occasional
>>  lapse) but it's an easy one to understand without endorsing it. 
>>  Unprovoked
>>  personal attacks are objectionable to me no matter what their source or
>>  target.


>	But, to date, you have said nothing about Giwer, L'il Tommy, and the 
>Hubers who deal in such attacks regularly.

>>  Giwer catches more crap than anyone else I've ever seen on this newsgroup.
>>  In my observation, he has not initiated the hard talk.  When a new contact
>>  is civil with him, he remains so to them.

>	That is simply untrue.  Please note his reaction to Kimberly Alf and the 
>lawyer posting under an anonymus number for two recent examples of his 
>technique.  Giwer began as a trash talkig bigot and then complains that those on 
>the receiving end of his lies and malice take offense.  It has been my opinion for a 
>long time that Giwer has often deliberately attempted to provoke a lawsuit so that 
>he can depict himself as a martyr.

>>  work.  Go ahead and take a free swing, label me whatever you want.  I
>>  won't
>>  take offense, and then maybe we can get on to something else.  :-)

>	I think that you are apologizing for a malicious jerk -- in fact a bunch of 
>malicious jerks.

>	--YFE
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47658 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:10:34 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>: 	They are appended to posts which contain personal attacks on me.  
>: 
>: 	Do you have a problem with that?
>: 
>: 	Or do you, like the holohuggers, consider personal attacks to be
>: examples of the kind of debate they claim they want?  

>Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.  
>That's why he refers to his ideological opponents as  "holohuggers,"

	What name would you prefer?  

>litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to 
>calling several of the female regulars on a.r. "fat broad".

	Only Ostrov.  And of course did not read any of here posts about me to
which that was a response.  Too busy I guess.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47659 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!oronet!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:36:12 GMT
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning
>> the holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  

>I see -- so your spam will increase n-fold.  Thanks for warning us.

	I told you what would happen BEFORE I started it.  You were forewarned.
Perhaps you have a newsfeed problem...  

>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?

	Lots of things.  Shut up McFly for one thing.  

	Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.

	Cease ALL "troll" references.  

	Good enough for openers?  

>It's clear that you already consider an "attack" to be anything which
>you do not like -- for example, a lighthearted tangential reference to
>you as a "troll" is enough to set you off.  Or a pun ("Giwerdly Lion").
>Or a mention of the fact that you are abusing the net.

	Precisely.  Simply stop it all.  It is that simple.  

	And that means not just what is directed towards me but everything that
is directed towards everyone who happens to disagree with any past or
present version of the holocaust description.  

	Is that clear enough?  

>Even a simple mention of the fact that you engage in ad hominem attacks,
>Mr. Giwer, is enough to trigger your spam finger.  

	Actually it takes three fingers but only two keystrokes.  

Apparently saying
>that someone else engages in ad hominem is itself ad hominem.  I guess
>you're allowed to call my colleague a "simpering bitch," 

	Did I say that?  That really isn't my style.  It is too subtle.  I
usually do better.  

as you did
>earlier today, and I'm forbidden from even pointing that out.  That
>hardly seems fair, Mr. Giwer.

	Fuck fair.  Neither was calling me a nazi and an antisemite without
cause which is what started all of this.  

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch

>So, since you've decreed that every form of expression is off-limits
>except that of your friends -- what could we do to stop you?

>Posted;  not emailed, for reasons explained previously.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

	Just stop it all and get this back to a discussion of revisionism
without all the crap you exterminationists have introduced over the
years.  This is not your conference.  It is for revisionist discussion.


	You do not have to leave.  You can contribute by critiquing the
revisionist proposals.  You folks will be doing a service in that
regard.  

	The choice is yours.  When it all stops there will be nothing for me to
respond to.  Therefore it stops.  It is all that simple.  

	And you better get that word to everyone here and to all the newcomers
as quickly as possible.  

	I accept no excuses.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47660 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gibberish...
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:04:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>Johan Carlson  wrote:

>>>First of all I would like to say that I'm new in this newsgroup. I spent 
>>>yesterday reading through some of the articles and I must say that it 
>>>was an astonnishing experience. It really doesn't take a genius to 
>>>realize that Mr. Giwer is an idiot. Furthermore it takes no, or at least 
>>>very little knowledge of history to realize that his so called proof 
>>>that the gassings never took place is a work of an ignorant.

>>	You are obviously not very bright as I have never claimed to
>>prove the gassings did not occur.  That is up to those making the
>>claim that there were gassings.  

>Can you be more clear ? Do you believe that the gassings occured, or
>not ? without subterfuge or evading ?

	My "belief" is contingent upon physical evidence.  There is no physical
evidence of gassing.  

	What can be more clear than that?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47663 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:48:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <4qvge0$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>(mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) quoted my entire article exposing the lies which
>he used to try to defend his outrageous abuse of Usenet.

>He then replied:

>> Nice tantrum but nothing I have posting is outrageous.  What is
>> outrageous is that they are all true of Nizkor.  

>He then threw on a 15-line sig, just for spam's sake (see
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty
>for 300 KB of more examples of this).

>That was the total of his reply.

>In short, Mr. Giwer's response is "I know you are but what am I."

>OK.

>This thread has been archived as:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/giwer-defends-himself

>Posted;  not emailed, because Giwer does not want email from me.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.
	Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
how to stop it all?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47664 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, Caught in Anoter Lie, Weasels
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:11:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>  
>>  >	Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts.  What were the 
>>  >statements and who made them.  You have made the assertions, now 
>prove 
>>  >them.  Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L'il Tommy that 
>the 
>>  >Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a "Jewish organization."
>>  
>>  >	Let's see where you stand, Matty poo.

>	So Matty poo told us where he stands:
>  
>>  ========
>>  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>  Subject: One man's opinion
>>  From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>  Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT
>>  
>>  "The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
>>  particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>>  already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>>  was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>>  political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>>  pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>>  It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>>  [Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>>  those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

>	In other words, Matty poo, refuses to back up his statements.  Matty 
>poo is a liar.

>	--YFE

>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

>Rudenko?!  Man, he gets around.  I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can be
>steamed at.  I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>paragraph.

        From the late 30s to 1981, a 40+ year career and a General in
1946.  Myself I would be looking for a father and son operation or
coincidence.  

        But it is correct that the KGB and its many predecessor
organization were heavily into forgery sometimes to the point where you
can get the impression that when there was to particular objective they
kept their hands in it just for practice.  Another section was into
bribery for disinformation and started the infamous AIDS was a US germ
warfare story.  

        Given that the Soviets generally copied the Tzarist government
bureaucracies I would not be surprised to find this a centuries old
specialization.  
        At times the clumsiness of the forgeries is laughable but
usually good enough for people who expect to read what they say.  The
serious work generally requires other sources to indicate it is forged,
that being the reference to a lack of archival history.  It is also why
I occasionally point out the lack of a chain of custody of the evidence
being presented at the IMT.  

        Even actively trying to avoid watching the OJ trial everyone
should have noticed how important the chain of custody is in any trial.
Of course I have never seen the raw IMT records but neither have I heard
any reference to anyone who actually recovered any record or any other
link in the chain of custody.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 47666 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:30:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer?  How about this: 
>> 
>> >1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly 
>> >identified, documented sources to support your claims.  
>> 
>> 	That depends upon whether or not the "documentation game" is going to be
>> played.  For example, "Hilberg wrote" does not count nor does "a
>> pharmacist concluded."    

>I think there's room for some leeway on documentation, depending upon the 
>nature of the claim being made.  The general "Hilberg discusses..." is OK 
>for some points (i.e., a general discussion of Hilberg's approach), but 
>insufficient for specifics (for instance, his estimates of the numbers of 
>victims at particular camps).  I would also note that most participants 
>are fairly scrupulous about citing authors, titles, and page numbers for 
>their information.  

>THE KEY THING:  If someone asks someone else to 
>provide specifics on a documentable point, then it's good form to post 
>the specifics.  Case in point: I made a general comment about Red Cross 
>inspections at Auschwitz, and then, to get the specifics down, I hit the 
>books and posted a followup.  I am also looking for detailed information on 
>the orders to shut down the gas chambers at Auschwitz; I expect to post 
>that in the next day or two.   

	A possible position.  However as you have seen the game played here some
derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source be
disproven as though it were graven in stone.  

	That is unacceptable.  
 
>> >2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging 
>> >in insults against others.  
>> 
>> 	I will not ignore it.  I would have thought that is clear by now.  

>It was a suggestion.  As mothers everywhere say, why descend to the level 
>of a bully?

	Mothers are not fathers.  
 
>> >Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the 
>> >level of discourse in this group.  
>> 
>> 	All by my self?  

>Quite frankly, yes.  It would be a start; at the very least, it would cut 
>down on the number of new-content-free posts emanating from your 
>address.  Needless to say, I encourage everybody else to play nice as well.  

	The posts coming from me are in response to other posts to me or about
me as you know.  As you know I will not ignore them, I do not see what
point you are trying to make.  
 
>> >I'll gladly take this "pledge" myself.
>> 
>> 	Or just the two of us?  	

>Is that an offer to engage in reasonable arguments with me, Mr. Giwer?  I 
>gladly accept.  Perhaps others would like to make similar joint 
>agreements with you as well--I'd certainly encourage and welcome it.

	There was never a problem with that as you have seen with this exchange.
So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
posting to me and about me?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:57 PDT 1996
Article: 47667 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:17:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4r9q0p$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01  7:20:41 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article <31d31a33.1226300@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
>> Curtis) writes:
>> 
>> >>If you think the Giwer-Troll has _opinions_ worth spit, considering the
>> >>absolute bullshit and lies he blows from his lips, whatever benifit of
>> the
>> >>doubt I had about your idoeological bent just went right out the window.
>> >>
>> >>PUBLIC APOLOGY ALERT: I, Mark Van Alstine, do publicly and humbly
>> >>apologize to Mr. Curtis for doubting his obviously warranted warnings
>> >>about Ehrlich606. He was right and I was wrong. I humbly beg Mr.
>> Curtis's
>> >>forgiveness. 
>> >>
>> >
>> >Accepted. Now it is time to start a real discussion here. It does seem
>> >that Ehrlich might be the best game in town at the moment so let's
>> >keep him honest. :-)
>> 
>> Matt Giwer deserves a lot of respect.  He is not trained in history, he
>> does not have a large historical library, a scanner, or access to primary
>> materials.  And yet he still scores points, gives as good as he gets, and
>> takes the heat, mostly alone.

>The G*wer-Troll 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 


hardly deserves respect. The fact that he is apparantly
>not a trained _anything_ should give him pause to reflect on his
>propensity to be a self-proclaimed "authority" on everything under the
>sun- yet the opposite seems true. Hardly a personality trait that endears
>respect. 

>Then there is the fact that he seems to enjoy wallowing in his
>self-imposed ignorance about various issues regarding the Holcaust, while
>cocncoting lies off the top of his head in rationalization of his
>prejudices.  That too is hardly a personality trait that endears respect.


>> His lack of accuracy is more than compensated by his refusal to accept
>> counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>> authority.  

>His "lack of accuracy" is nothing more than you, Ehrlich606, rationalizing
>the G*wer-Troll's 
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 


lying in his defense. Why is that? And " his refusal to
>accept counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>authority?" Oh boy! That's a fresh one! Why don't we all stand back while
>the air clears! Ehrlich606, the G*wer-Troll's

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 


 "lack of accuracy" (i.e. his
>lies and ignorance) is far from "compensated" by _anything_ he does or
>does not do. As for "appeals to authority, both _you_ and the G*wer-Troll

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

>seem to have a taste for that! Namely you both seem to enjoy appealing to
>your _own_ authority! Neither of you seem much concerned about addressing
>the historical works of others. Too constraining, I suppose....  

>> I don't always agree with the language he uses, but his
>> general dynamism, and skepticism, are eminently praiseworthy.  

>Really? You mean being an lying, decietful, and insulting S.O.B. is
>praiseworthy? My, I must say, Ehrlich606, you have a weird idea of moral
>fiber! 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

>> If I had to endorse an approach to life, I would much rather endorse an 
>> approach that was skeptical and questioning, than one which was defensive and 
>> harrassing.

>How odd then that ypu choose to defend a bigot 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

>and a liar 
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

who's repetoire
>ofargumentative techniques consists of mainly appealing to his own bogus
>authority, refusing to debate the issues on the facts, and running away
>from the issues hurling invective at those who have exposed him as a liar

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 


>and a fraud. 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 


>Hmmm. Maybe not so odd after all.... 

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:05:03 PDT 1996
Article: 57284 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: The GiwerOlympics: Speed-Posting and UDP consideration
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:06:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <4rap14$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r9q65$f59@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  2:09:56 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>How long does it take, in Free Agent, to send a post, read another in
>another group, change the From: line in preferences, and send another
>post? Can it be done in four seconds? 

>Remember that this is _Free_ Agent, which does not have any of the
>automation features of the full version.

>Anyone agree that it's more likely that we're looking at more than one
>person using multiple machines? 

>I'm analyzing the GiwerTroll's spewage for the month of June now. It's
>quite interesting, when you take a step back. I'll be issuing about 300
>EMP spam-cancels soon. Of course, the effect is largely symbolic, unless
>and until I write a script to autocancel messages matching a certain
>pattern.

>- -rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/

>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:03:45 GMT
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> <4qsqki$98f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4quuhj$q9h@atlas.uniserve.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
>X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  6:06:31 PM CDT 1996
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:03:49 GMT
>Organization: images incarnate
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <4qv45s$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
>References: 
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> <4qre95$cld@hp01.redwood.nl> <4qse89$cjr@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
> <4qtvk8$qnk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
>X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  6:06:36 PM CDT 1996
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2

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========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47672 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:16:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <4rapk3$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ljq$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r8ij0$3i5@news.enter.net> <4r9mcm$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <1JUL199623450715@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4r9mcm$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> 
>>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>  	Beyond that, stop reaching.  What in fact happened in the US was
>>>>  correctly described here, Jewish leaders "distanced themselves" which
>>>>  means they did not want to be associated with but refused to condemn the
>>>>  terrorism of Kahane and the JDL.  Or are you really such a novice that
>>>>  you have no idea what "distance" means in political terms?  Or do you
>>>>  think there are people here so inexperienced that they will buy your cop
>>>>  out for the terrorist organization, the JDL?  
>> 
>>>	Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts.  What were the 
>>>statements and who made them.  You have made the assertions, now prove 
>>>them.  Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L'il Tommy that the 
>>>Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a "Jewish organization."
>> 
>>>	Let's see where you stand, Matty poo.
>> 
>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: One man's opinion
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT
>> 
>>"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
>>particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>>already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>>was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>>political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>>pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>>It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>>[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>>those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 
>> 
>>-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
>>John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
>>p.189-190. 

>    Given that he responded with a completely off topic cite, I'd say he is
>    standing in the middle of the room with his pants down on this one.  He
>    apparantly has no real response to your challange that he provide
>    grounding for his assertion.

>    Typical. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"

>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

>Rudenko?!  Man, he gets around.  I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can be
>steamed at.  I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>paragraph.

        From the late 30s to 1981, a 40+ year career and a General in
1946.  Myself I would be looking for a father and son operation or
coincidence.  

        But it is correct that the KGB and its many predecessor
organization were heavily into forgery sometimes to the point where you
can get the impression that when there was to particular objective they
kept their hands in it just for practice.  Another section was into
bribery for disinformation and started the infamous AIDS was a US germ
warfare story.  

        Given that the Soviets generally copied the Tzarist government
bureaucracies I would not be surprised to find this a centuries old
specialization.  
        At times the clumsiness of the forgeries is laughable but
usually good enough for people who expect to read what they say.  The
serious work generally requires other sources to indicate it is forged,
that being the reference to a lack of archival history.  It is also why
I occasionally point out the lack of a chain of custody of the evidence
being presented at the IMT.  

        Even actively trying to avoid watching the OJ trial everyone
should have noticed how important the chain of custody is in any trial.
Of course I have never seen the raw IMT records but neither have I heard
any reference to anyone who actually recovered any record or any other
link in the chain of custody.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for "battle" against evil Christians
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 01:20:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01  8:23:46 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>The JDL is no ally of mine.
>>What does this thread have to do with the historicity of the holocaust?
>>Oh, I get it: it's another way to bash Jews.  Some Jews are terrorists,
>>therefore all Jews are terrorists.
>>Regards,
>>Rich Green

>	The JDL is plugged on Nizkor, accomodated a link, under
>"anti-racist resources". Nizkor is a Holocasut promotional page. The
>rest of your raving gets nothing. And I don't believe you have a
>problem with the JDL. Its obvious your ethnocentrically insane. Thats
>why you ask what the post had to do with the Holocaust, without
>recognizing it yourself, which was obvious.

	And as for claims the JDL is not a terrorist organization ...  

	One of their founding five principles ...

	From their own web site ...

BARZEL -- IRON 

     JDL upholds the principle of Barzel -- iron -- the need to both
move to help Jews
     everywhere and to change the Jewish image through sacrifice and all
necessary
     means -- even strength, force and violence. The Galut image of the
Jew as a
     weakling, as one who is easily stepped upon and who does not fight
back is an
     image that must be changed. Not only does that image cause
immediate harm to
     Jews but it is a self-perpetuating thing. Because a Jew runs away
or because a
     Jew allows himself to be stepped upon, he guarantees that another
Jew in the
     future will be attacked because of the image that he has
perpetuated. JDL wants
     to create a physically strong, fearless and courageous Jew who
fights back. We
     are changing an image, an image born of 2,000 years in the Galut,
an image that
     must be buried because it has buried us. We train ourselves for the
defense of
     Jewish lives and Jewish rights. We learn how to fight physically,
for it is better to
     know how and not have to, than have to and not know how. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:06:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4ra3u0$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>>         I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>> 
>>         Do you folks really want to continue this?

>What's the matter?  Your "secret techniques" not working as well
>as you had hoped?

	What secret?  Bad news feed?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 47686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:05:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4ra3sm$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:09:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>         I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>> 
>>         Do you folks really want to continue this?  
> 
>Mr. Giwer shows his true colors. He has the tactics of a 4-year-old.
> 
>So much for the famous 163 IQ.
> 
>Sara

>-- 
>You can't stand still on freedom's track,
>if you don't go forward, you go back.
>You can't "Giddy-up" by saying "Whoa"
>and sitting on your status quo.
>        Pins & Needles

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and "asshole"
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:15:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:18:48 PM PDT 1996
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <4qlceo$fi4@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>> I did.  You deleted them, asshole.  What kind of stupid game do you
>> think you are playing?  

>In article <31ceadfb.1427859@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) replied, in full:

>> Please stick to topics, and do not resort to unprovoked name calling.

>In article <4qmv49$bu0@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) "responded":

>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
>> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT
>> 
>> Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
>> close this time?  

>I've deleted the remainder of Giwer's recycled crap -- this particular
>snippet has been posted 43 times in the last two weeks, and there's no
>need for me to waste _more_ bandwidth by quoting it.  Giwer's article
>consisted, incidentally, of nothing _but_ this waste of bandwidth.

	Bandwidth wasting?  That is called the WWW.  a decent graphic is worth
literally 10,000 words.  

>Now, I thought John Morris' comment was polite and to-the-point;  he
>disapproved of Giwer's calling someone an "asshole" and wanted to see
>fewer personal attacks on the newsgroup.  Yet Giwer responded scornfully
>by reprinting an old, totally unrelated article of his.  He has said
>that he reserves the right to waste bandwidth in this way, whenever
>someone insults him or even mentions him.

>Given that, perhaps DvdThomas could explain why he wrote this, about Mr.
>Giwer:

>   [Matt Giwer's] terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not
>   personalities.  I'd support that aim regardless of who was
>   promoting it.
>   
>   What [Giwer] and others are demanding, not asking for, is a forum
>   where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/dthomas/dthomas-on-giwer

>Posted;  not emailed to DvdThomas or Matt Giwer, because they have both
>explained, in no uncertain terms, that they don't want email from me.

>The number 43 is the result given by grepping Giwer's June 1996 Usenet
>article for '^close this time' -- no warranty, express or implied.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:16:15 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:19:38 PM CDT 1996
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>>
>>	Do you folks really want to continue this?  

>    I don't attack anyone for questioning the holocaust dogma.  I attack
>people for lies and intellectual dishonesty.  Occasionally that includes my
>supposed allies.

>    Why don't you attack the many errors in my response to Friedrich Berg now
>that I have posted the whole thing?  It's on topic.  What are you waiting for?
>Don't you want to continue this on-topic discussion of a particular
>revisionist theory?

	Berg who?  Do you have a thread name?  

	But then are you not the person who discovered a kind of fat with more
than 900 calories per gram?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 11:14:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Lets get this straight (Python, forgive me...)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:11:42 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47708 alt.politics.white-power:34837

Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4qo3o7$2c8@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> >said:
>> 
>> >>>Giwer doesn't find answers.  He runs away.
>> 
>> >>>--
>> >>>Gord McFee
>> 
>> >>>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>> >>>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>> 
>> >And here is the proof that he runs away.  Good little doggie, that Giwer.

>Bravely bold Matt Giwer
>Brought forth from Netcom.com
>He was not afraid to lie
>Oh Brave Matt Giwer!
>He was not at all afraid to post in various nasty ways
>Brave, brave, brave Matt Giwer

>He was not in the least bit scared to be lying through his teeth
>Or to have his facts all wrong, and his quotes mis-spoken!
>To have his information bad, trolling all who come along
>And his lies all bold and loud, brave Matt Giwer.

>His lies all caught and his true truths all wrong
>And his science knowledge long gone
>And his rationality in doubt
>And his brai...

>    Stop!  Looks like there's trolling afoot.

>Brave Matt Giwer ran away               No!
>Bravely ran away...                     I didn't!
>When truth reared up its noble head
>He bravely turned his tail and fled     No!
>Yes brave Matt Giwer turned about       I didn't!
>And gallantly chickened out...

>Bravely taking to his feet              I never did!
>He beat a very troll retreat            All lies!
>Brave as a rabid dog in heat            I never!
>Brave Matt Giwer!

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 11:14:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47709 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:25:34 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47709 alt.censorship:87265 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:98 alt.usenet.kooks:26249

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <4qv45n$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>wrote about Hilary Ostrov, my co-webmaster at Nizkor:

>> Fatbroad speaks again.  A spokesrat for a site that censors what it
>> does not like.  Quite amusing to be talking about integrity.

>(That was his response in toto;  I deleted only previous, quoted,
>material.)

>Matt Giwer has consistently repeated the lie that Nizkor censors things.
>What things we censor, he has been pretty vague about.  Apparently he
>thinks that we deliberately remove relevant material from our archives
>that would not be censorship, of course, but even if it were, we don't
>do it and he's welcome to try to show when we have done so.

>But more importantly, he should try to provide a single scrap of
>evidence for his claim:  that Nizkor has actually _censored_ anyone
>or anything.

>Note that Giwer has previously made this claim, and retracted it, and
>now he's making it again.  I wrote back on June 11th:

>   More importantly -- the "Nizkor leaders" and the "holohuggers" had
>   nothing to do with this "voice and email harrassment," this
>   "censorship," this "shut[ting] up some of the guys they don't like,"
>   this "pressures," this "harrassment of a service provider."
>   
>   All fabrications from Giwer and Beaulieu.

>   If he would like to prove me wrong, all he has to do is post,
>   publicly, his proof that the "Nizkor leaders" and/or the
>   "holohuggers" have done anything like what he has claimed.

>Giwer replied:

>   I have made no such claim.  So you could never read such a claim you
>   brainless fool.
>   
>   You are truly an idiot to accuse me of something I did not say.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-and-backpedal-nizkor-censor

>Of course, he _had_ made the claim;  someone else had asked whether such
>things were going on and he replied "Certainly."  But he said he never
>said it.  Now he's saying it again.

>So, I repeat my original question:  does he have a single scrap of
>evidence?

>Or will he revert to saying that he never said it?

>Posted;  not emailed to Mr. Giwer, because he has said he doesn't want
>to see any email from me.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

	There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.


	Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
this?  All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
time you folks are unable to find those mentions.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 11:14:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47716 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who's Fat and Who ain't
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:05:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Laura Finsten  wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:


>>>What's the grand prize, anyway, Gord?                                                             

>>A rather thin tome entitled _The Wit and Witticism of Matthias Gottfried
>>Giwer and Saint Thomas Moronicus_.

>Eeeewwww YUK!  I withdraw my application!!!!                                                                       


>"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
>          Emma Goldman


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 11:14:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47719 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: >: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: 
>: >: >	What about the ADL rabbi who said,  "Especially after the
>: >: >Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>: >: >Jews". Some of these Christians are just little kids. 
>: >: 
>: >: >	Evil little Christian Children.
>: >: 
>: >: 	In the minds of the non-goy all Christians are Nazis.  There is no other
>: >: assumption that could lead to the statement.  
>: 
>: >Would somebody like to file this away against the next time Giwer asks
>: >for proof that he's an antisemite?
>: 
>: 	Be certain to file away the rabbi's statement also rather than the usual
>: censorship job that is done here and at Nizkor.  It is clear that he is
>: putting the responsibility for his personal holocaust upon the shoulders
>: of Christians in the US.  

>In the first place, the Rabbi appears merely to have been commenting on
>the offensive nature of the presumption that Jews need to be "converted",
>especially in light of the fact that the culture wishing to convert them
>has engaged in two thousand years of persecution against them, culminating
>in the holocaust.  

	You, too, make the direct connection between Christians and the
holocaust.  

	As you should be aware, Christians have been much worse upon their
fellow Christians than they ever were on Jews.  Or have you met an
Albagensian lately?  The last I heard they were all murdered in a single
night.  Quite an accomplishment for a mere conspiracy.  There were many
others that no longer exist including the original gnostic wing.  

	As for the need for conversion, that was a teaching of the Christian
sect of Jews long before it was differentiated by Paul.  The original
teaching as ascribed to that Jew, Yeshua.  It is repeated by his
faithful sidekick, the Jew Simon Peter who, although he approved Paul's
variation, was not a part of it.  

In the second place, Giwer did not say "in the mind of
>the Rabbi in question"--he said "in the minds of the non-goy".  In other
>words, the Rabbi speaks for all Jews, because all Jews think alike.  
>Classic antisemitism. Fodder for the ZOG files, if ever I saw it.

	When I read of other Jews and in particular Rabbis condemning this
statement you will have grounds for saying they think differently.
Until then, you are the only one making the claim that all Jews think
alike.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47725 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists...
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:40:09 GMT
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:33:12 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>>Cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc;  emailed "FYI" to various
>>>people whom Giwer calls "hijackers" and several pro-free-speech
>>>acquaintances of mine, as well as Mr. Giwer himself of course.
>>
>>>Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
>>>alt.revisionism and "make it useless" to everyone with whom he disagrees.
>>>He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
>>>volume.  Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!
>>
>>	Jamie boy, the lies of you holohuggers and this lie in particular have
>>been pointed out many times as has been your harrassment of my family.
>>Your repetition of this particular lie is not going to make it true.
>>
>Mr. Giwer, is there is a lie and thus a liar, then it would be you,
>Matt Giwer, for it you indeed did say that your goal is to take alt.
>revisionims and "make it useless" that is a fact, one you cannot deny,
>but you will try, and try. Bringing your family into this your lie,
>thus further compounding your lie, is something only you do so well.
>One need to repeat something to make it so, one only needs to look
>into Dejanews and see for themselves.

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 47726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:04:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4raldb$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r7e3a$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>>
>>alec@gryn.org@   (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>>>In <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>	Mt. Grynspan, sir. 
>>>>
>>>>	You have read a 10 to 1 ratio saying that I have gotten control of
>>>>alt.revisionism and you have read their declaration of defeat.

>>>You fool yourself. Several people here could demonstrate their ability to
>take you 
>>>on, Matt - with little difficulty. Their problem is not that they lack the
>ability - 
>>>merely the experience.

>Mr. Grynspan is wrong.  Perhaps not all of them lack the experience and
>perhaps some of them are taking on, and defeating, and controlling, the
>Giwer-bot.  All it takes is a little logic and a little Fidonet experience,
>a little research.  Hmmm...... does the name Lester ring a bell?  Any
>military medical types out there.  It's all so easy.

>Let's see.  Giwer-bot is reduced to reproducing denier spam fed to him
>by....well *we* know, don't we Matty-bot?  He is reduced to dodging articles
>and simply posting his sig-bot.  He is obeying orders.  He is copying.  He
>is being led around by the nose.  Why, the Giwer-bot is almost toast.

>>	You hope I fool myself.  You hope you are not fooling yourself. 
>>	
>>>>	Now you are the only person I would consider one on one who is here.
>>>>
>>>>	You have also stated you know how to deal with me.
>>>>
>>>>	The following is a challenge.
>>>>
>>>>	DO SO.

>Why should Alec cost himself all that money when the job can be done so
>easily?

>>>>

>>>When I've completed other tasks. This area is *NOT* one of high priority
>for me 
>>>now and, I'm sorry to tell you, such a battle is not worth the time -
>unless you're
>>>willing to pay what my clients pay me.

>>	In the mean time, please cease with the bragging claims that you can do
>>what you will not demonstrate you can do. 

>>	It does get annoying after a while.  

>Ooohhhh!  I think the Giwer-bot is MAD!  

>>	After all, how can you have time for one without the other?  

>Stay tuned, sweetie-bot.


>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                                             
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47731 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:43:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4ragkk$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:

>>  Of course, it follows that it would be something guarded with great
>>  solemnity by those most severely affected by it.  Respect the Jewish
>>  interpretation of their own history!  But, unfortunately, in the past 20
>>  years, and I don't know how much revisionism has had to do with this, the
>>  history of the Holocaust has been, in my opinion, marginalized to some
>>  extent to the Judaica shelves of libraries and bookstores.  I am not sure
>>  that that is a good idea, but the dilemma is that if we try to integrate
>>  the Jewish perspective into the general secular picture, what happens to
>>  the Jewish perspective, the Jewish people, and Judaism in the process?  At
>>  least we can note that this problem, which I see as a continuation of
>>  problems of assimilation _per se_ is over 200 years old.

>	Have you read Dawidowicz's attacks on the teaching of the 
>Holocaust?  They can be found in a collection of her essays, "What is the Use 
>of Jewish History?"

>>  Time out!  *Holohugger* isn't degrading.  It's teasing.  Although I would
>>  tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
>>  _sensitive_.  But you know what?  On this board, the more sensitive you
>>  are, the easier it is to get your head cut off.  It is called, I believe,
>>  the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.

>	"Even a dog distinguishes between being stumbled over and being 
>kicked." -- O.W. Holmes (the Younger)

>	Giwer kicks.

	You wear the sign on your back.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 47732 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:46:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r3ujs$92i@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>, Nele Abels
> said:

>>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele) wrote:
>>>>Schwächlich... Früher hat er sich mehr Mühe gegeben mit seinen
>Antworten...

>>>	I am certain that is something intelligent.  Looks like I need to
>>>collect some taglines in German.  

>>Try a dictionary. You should find one in your extensive library. Or did
>>you throw it away after you had read it? Oh, I forgot, before you could
>>translate your sentence you would have to change your moral system...

>You don't seriously think the Giwer-bot makes up his own taglines and sigs,
>do you Nele?  He ha slost that ability--he's being fed.



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                   
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 47733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Matt Giwer fan club?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:20:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>ibokor (ibokor@metz.une.edu.au) wrote:
>: Richard Schultz (schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il) wrote:

>: : Shows what a 163 IQ can do for you.

>: You keep repeating he same typo. You keep
>: omitting the decimal point that comes before the 1.

>Well, in the interest of saving bandwidth, I decided to leave out all of
>the zeros between the decimal point and the 1.  Actually, I think the
>appropriate math problem here is not (a la Morrison) what is the 
>Lorentz-contracted value of Myshkin's IQ in the Normal Earth People
>reference frame.  Rather, we should be asking, "if it were possible to
>make a zero the size of a hydrogen atom, would there be enough room in 
>the universe to write down the number of zeros between the decimal point
>and the first non-zero digit of Myskin's IQ"?

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>Look outside the window, there's a woman being grabbed.
>They've dragged her to the bushes, and now she's being stabbed.
>Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain.
>But Monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow the game.
>                    -Phil Ochs
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47734 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:27:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4r9n2f$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r76sc$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 


>>         There is clearly no difference between the JDL and the church burners
>> and they are much, much worse than the citizen milias.  
> 
>Really? What destructive measures have the JDL taken here in America that
>equal or surpass the henious church-burners?

	Now why would you care to limit it to America?  Is not the JDL active in
Canada also?   
 
>How many places are the JDL holed up, in armed defiance of the US Government?

	Never heard of any militia group doing that.  
 
>I am NOT defending the JDL, by the way, merely wondering about your rather
>bizarre assertions.

	Read about what they did to Zundel in Canada.  Or is that made up?  
 
>> >Please provide evidence that "many Jews" defended him. Pleae provide the
>> >names of those "many" Jews.
>> 
>>         You have tried to play this game before.  No, I will not research the
>> papers to show you what you should have read at the time and would not
>> read if I found gave you references.    

>Simple translation, "Because! I! Say! So! I made all this up and have no
>way to verify it, so I'll turn and accuse YOU!"

	Rather it is like you demanding references to the Waco massacre.  
 
>There ARE no references, Mr. Giwer. If there were, you would plaster them
>all ober here.
> 
>He who asserts must prove.

	That never appears to apply to your favorite gas chambers.  Why start
now?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47735 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:08:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:

>: >He does that, and more.  When I first began participating in this NG I
>: >approached Mr. Giwer with an honest curiosity toward his views, informing
>: >him fully about my natural bias against those unorthodox.  He responded by
>: >attacking my character, his only position being that if I did not agree
>: >with him that I was then decietful, ignorant and unworthy of his attention.
>: 
>: 	That of course is a lie that belies your intention in the approach,
>: dumbbroad.    

>...and herewith Giwer demonstrates both his honesty and his courageous
>refusal to engage in argument by personal attack.  Thanks, Matt--you're
>an example to us all.

	You are welcome.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47736 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:42:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4ragj3$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
>(borowsky) writes:

>>>        This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human
>nature.
>>As  I
>>>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>>>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>>>day he died.
>> 

>I can understand what Matt is saying to an extent here.  But you have to
>allow people to sublimate their grief when they feel it is appropriate. 
>It is an individual and personal thing.  For those of us who don't feel it
>anymore, or as strongly, or never as strongly as others, we really should
>not judge.  

	In keeping with your analogy of sublimating grief, even at that level,
given a 75 year average life span, at least 2/3s of the people
sublimating in public were not even born until after 1945.  It is not
clear why there is any grief to sublimate for them.  
 
>>So you do have an explanation for it-- almost identical to the one I
>offered
>>above:  you believe that some people have too much emotional investment
>>(& you hint political investment too, but this is conspiracy & you said.
>..)
>>in the Holocaust to listen to your version of events.  You've been saying
>it
>>for a while now (& it was inevitable that you did).  This has been the
>>implicit
>>critique you have been making;  otherwise, what point would there be in
>>degrading people with `hologhugger'?
>> 

>Time out!  *Holohugger* isn't degrading.  It's teasing.  

	Actually, the genesis of holohugger is much more mundane.  Early on I
made the mistake of saying that Jews were supporting the holocaust.  The
immediate response was to trot out the token Goy, Ken McVay, OBE.
Therefore I came up with a more inclusive term.  

Although I would
>tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
>_sensitive_.  But you know what?  On this board, the more sensitive you
>are, the easier it is to get your head cut off.  It is called, I believe,
>the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.

	And "sensitive" is in fact another appeal to "shut up."  

	"If you were more sensitive, you would not hurt people's feelings by
saying such things."  It is reminiscent of the "tears" argument.  The
absurdity is that this is applied by the 2/3 that were not even born
before it was all over, whatever it really was.  

	And if one refuses to be silenced by that argument then one is
"insenstive" or some other hippy touchy-feely condemnation.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47738 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WAR TIME ATROCITY PHOTOS
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:05:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4raed2$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:08:34 PM PDT 1996
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:59:21, Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:


>>Institute for Historical Review
>>PO Box 2719
>>NewPort Beach CA 92659
>>$18.00 plus 10% for shipping
>>
>>You have nothing to lose but your chains!
>>
>Mr. Widmann is that the same IHR that had to pay Mel Marmelstein a
>large sum of money??? Hmm, is that the organization once headed by
>willis carto?? The willis carto that was legally found to be an
>ANTISEMITE, is that the one??? Is that the organization that peddles
>the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion?? Is that the same IHR
>that is currently involved in litigation that is depleting the large
>bequest it received??

>Are you a shill for the IHR??

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:34:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rajkt$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
>Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <4r0308$k74@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>> In article <4qtvct$mt7@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>>> Ostrov) writes:
>>> 
>>> >
>>> >Oh, how disappointing.  I found Mr. Van Alstine's post quite
>>> >informative.  And I was looking forward to the "reasoned response"
>>> >that Mr. Ehrlich prides himself on. But I see that in his reply, 
>>> >Mr. Ehrlich deleted all but one paragraph of Mr. Van Alstine's
>>> >reasoned and factual discussion, without indicating that he had done
>>> >so.  And cobbles a very flimsy excuse not to respond to the substance.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> 
>>>   What is there to respond to? 

>>More to the point, what is Mr. E _capable_ of repsonding to? 

>>Why nothing, obviously! 

>It does occur to me (since I notice that there are an awful lot of
>EIOU's hanging about in the ether) that perhaps Mr. E.  is too busy at
>the moment dressing the troll to whom he sold his soul.  And I do
>wonder how long it will take him to learn - as we have known for quite
>some time - that you can dress up a troll, but you just can't take him
>anywhere.

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47747 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:14:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4ra4d2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> 	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>> 
>> 	Do you folks really want to continue this?  

>May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer?  How about this: 

>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly 
>identified, documented sources to support your claims.  

	That depends upon whether or not the "documentation game" is going to be
played.  For example, "Hilberg wrote" does not count nor does "a
pharmacist concluded."    

>2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging 
>in insults against others.  

	I will not ignore it.  I would have thought that is clear by now.  

>Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the 
>level of discourse in this group.  

	All by my self?  

>I'll gladly take this "pledge" myself.

	Or just the two of us?  	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47748 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:20:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>I think this would be a valuable idea (no irony intended), because then you would
>actually present _texts_ and not only cut-and-paste quotations of other people's posts.
>I prefer having something to base a reply on, as you probably know.

	Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated Keren
spams would it not?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:52:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.  
>: >That's why he refers to his ideological opponents as  "holohuggers,"
>: 
>: 	What name would you prefer?  

>I would prefer "Lord High Mayor of the Realm of the Musk Ox", but
>that's just me.

>: >litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to 
>: >calling several of the female regulars on a.r. "fat broad".
>: 
>: 	Only Ostrov.  

>No, not only Ostrov--McFinVayStein, too.  Giwer also refered to a 
>relative newcomer to the group, who had engaged in no invective 
>whatsever, as "dumb broad".  

	Dumb broad is the other one.  Finstin.  

>: And of course did not read any of here posts about me to
>: which that was a response.  Too busy I guess.  

>Much.  I'm plotting the overthrow of Western Society, you know.

>Doesn't matter, anyway.  Neither Hillary, Laura nor Kimberly has ever,
>to my knowledge, held herself up as a fearless crusader against the
>evils of argument by personal invective.  You talk the talk, Matt,
>you gotta walk the walk.

	Thank you, Jesse Jackson.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47750 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:50:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4r0d05$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4r3mrj$7tu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r97s9$8ht@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4r9jrs$5al@atlas.uniserve.com>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4r97s9$8ht@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william
>c anderson) wrote:

>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>: 	They are appended to posts which contain personal attacks on me.  
>>: 
>>: 	Do you have a problem with that?
>>: 
>>: 	Or do you, like the holohuggers, consider personal attacks to be
>>: examples of the kind of debate they claim they want?  

>>Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.  
>>That's why he refers to his ideological opponents as  "holohuggers,"
>>litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to 
>>calling several of the female regulars on a.r. "fat broad".

>Indeed, Mr. Anderson, he is responding just as we have programmed him
>to.  He's incapable of doing anything different.  But he was getting
>bored with that particular boorish invective.  So we let him use his
>imagination to come up with another one.  Took him about 48.75 hours
>of deep thought, according to our records.  I'm certain you will be
>able to spot the result when you see it.

>hro

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47751 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for "battle" against evil Christians
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:10:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4ralne$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d678b9.254137@news.pacificnet.net>  <31d6baab.17135776@news.pacificnet.net> 
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>> Any links provided by Nizkor to any revisionist pages is one of
>> mutual accomodation.

>Please rewrite this for clarity so that we can understand exactly
>what you are lying about, and then either try to prove it, or
>retract it.  Thanks.

>> Revisionists are the adversaries of Nizkor, and the JDL is
>> Nizkor's ally.

>Prove or retract.

>> Nizkor does not include a link to any revisionist page
>> out of pure voluntary will

>Prove or retract.

>> nor would I say do any of the above that
>> Jamie cites.

>Rewrite for clarity.

>> It is a sort of forced mutual agreement.

>Prove or retract.

>> I take Jamie's reply as a 'no comment' as to what was posted.  

>I suspect that few people care whether Mr. Moran understands what
>I write.  I know that I have better ways to spend my time than
>trying to explain with words he can understand.

>Nizkor is opposed to violence, and whether hypocritical antisemites
>like Mr. Moran are capable of understanding that is really
>immaterial to me.

>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

	By your "title" you are at best a flunky how just recently learned how
to do a background.  

	What business do you have speaking for Nizkor unless you are more than a
flunky?  

	Get Overtaken By Events out here to speak for the site.  He is the only
one with any authority to do so.  

	You. get back in your bunker.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:09:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4r9phf$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r0d05$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4r3mrj$7tu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r4tge$hq0@atlas.uniserve.com> <4r5d1k$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4r778n$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31D7FE5F.CF2@unb.ca>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4r5d1k$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> >> FATBOT
>> >
>> >This from the man who complains about name-calling.
>> >
>> >Pot. Kettle. Fat.
>> >
>> >Sara
>> 
>>         Cute.  You must feel like you are an internet old timer now.  Response
>> to insult is insult.  You may continue if you wish.

>Or, in Giwer's case (which I can prove) response to serious
>questions, inquiries and comments is insult.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47753 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:03:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>  	Poor me.  I just don't have the access to a mess of psyrinks to poll on
>>  the subject.  Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>>  people you folks can get to in an instant?  

>As I have some difficulties with your slang, I didn't first understood
>what you told with "mess of psyrinks". All the psychiatrists that I
>can poll are among the firsts classified in the contests for the
>hospitals (for example, 5, 8 or 11 among 260). The most part of the
>French psychiatrists pass this examination. These that I know are
>always classified in the first quarter.

>But this pedigree has nothing to do with your claim: that men can't
>scream only in fear of death. It is ridiculous, and it remains
>ridiculous. I don't find you very likeable, but since I had my own
>experience, I hope that you will never try it yourself.

	I have serious problems with your restatement also.  I did not say can
not anything.  I said do not.  I have no idea what you are trying to say
with "only in fear of".  

	It would appear whatever you asked had no relationship to what I said.  

	But primarily, I was questioning that you "polled" anyone and implying
that you made it up.  

	Is that clear enough?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:03:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4rahq6$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <834772507snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <31c16705.50fb@rio.com> <4psulr$h56@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>   <4qutqq$1pc8@mule1.mindspring.com> <4qvvni$398g@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <4r9s8t$12u4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qvvni$398g@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
>Huber) said:

>>

>>>>>Matt, the holocaust is historical fact; just because it gives your
>>>>>political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>>>>>happened will make it so. 

>>There is no such thing as historical 'fact'.

>Well, that just about sums it up for the H*ber spawn.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                          
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47755 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars, The Series begins [Preface]
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:37:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4rana1$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r8k59$5ce6@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <4r9s9b$35ek@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4ra649$ct2@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
>: In article <4r8k59$5ce6@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
>: Huber) said:
>: 
>: >
>: >Ride with us as we lower ourselves into the slime at the bottom of life
>: >where the V*rmin wriggle , those who have stolen YOUR names and laid
>: >claim to the 5,000 year heritage of the brave Semites of the House of
>: >Judea. They are the GRAVES, the McVEYs and the McFEEs of the world,
>: >bringing havoc out of  order,  and ruin out of 10,000 years of White
>: >Heritage.
>: 
>: Yeehah!  Those fanatical Jews Graves, McVay and McFee.  Oyvey!  On we go, to
>: capture and torture the H*ber spawn.
>: 
>: Glad to make the list, H*ber spawn.

>Damn!  I never make these lists.  Can't I help to bring ruin our of 10,000
>years of White Heritage too, Gord?  Huh?  Can't I?  Please?

>Bill
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47756 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars, The Series begins [Preface]
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:37:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4ranag$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r8k59$5ce6@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <4r9s9b$35ek@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  1:40:48 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r8k59$5ce6@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
>Huber) said:

>>
>>Ride with us as we lower ourselves into the slime at the bottom of life
>>where the V*rmin wriggle , those who have stolen YOUR names and laid
>>claim to the 5,000 year heritage of the brave Semites of the House of
>>Judea. They are the GRAVES, the McVEYs and the McFEEs of the world,
>>bringing havoc out of  order,  and ruin out of 10,000 years of White
>>Heritage.

>Yeehah!  Those fanatical Jews Graves, McVay and McFee.  Oyvey!  On we go, to
>capture and torture the H*ber spawn.

>Glad to make the list, H*ber spawn.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                             
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47757 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kinds of holocausts
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:43:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4rak5c$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r4dsj$ki6@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31D6B7DC.5043@unb.ca> <4r79vt$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4r9s9h$1fem@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:46:52 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r79vt$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:


>>	You are not good at imitation.  You should come up with your own from
>>scratch.  The exercise would not hurt you either.  

>Gads!  Look who's talkin'!  The guy that does whatever I will.  The guy who
>copied my mantra.  The guy who can't even write his own posts.  And *he*
>talks of imitation?  It is to laugh.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                                      
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

0



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first "denier" was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:01:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4ral7n$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <861081576wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>  <31D0A263.60D6@kaiwan.com> <31d0ae18.12598500@news.eden.com> <31d5b5f9.111299086@nntp.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  1:05:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31d5b5f9.111299086@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ursus_m@ix.netcom.com
>(Ursus Major) wrote:

>> mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 

>[snip]

>> >Raven, we won't decide who is stupid here but what is written below
>> >might help some other people decide who is really the stupid one.
>> >
>> >"Hoess had a different system to number the gas chambers, which he
>> >labeled crematories. Hoess counts the four gas chambers in Birkenau as
>> >numbers I to IV. The Auschwitz Museum counts all the gas chambers as
>> >follows: number 1 was the building across from the SS hospital in
>> >Auschwitz itself; numbers II through V were in Birkenau; the red farm
>> >house and the white farmhouse were called Bunkers I and II by Hoess
>> >respectively. Altogether there were seven buildings used for the Final
>> >Solution. The numbering used by Hoess has been changed in the text to
>> >facilitate the reader's understanding."
>> >
>> >This should tell the untutored that historians have renamed the items
>> >for ease of discussion and have since settled on a numbering system.
>> >Hoess couldn't have known how historians would treat the gas chambers
>> >and their numbering in 1946. Historians do this so that everyone can
>> >write and speak about the same thing without confusion. I realize that
>> >your goal is to confuse.
>> >
>> >Mike Curtis
>> >Mike Curtis
>> 
>> An honest mistake! People being tortured sometimes get their facts
>> mixed up: like whether the flew to the witches' sabboth on a broom
>> or rode there on the back of a goat.

>And who said Ho"ss made a "mistake" when numbering the Kremas? You? Uh huh.  

>As to Ho"ss getting his "facts mixed up" perhaps you'd be suprised to find
>out that his coerced testimony taken by the British, on his capture, was
>nearly _identical_ to his later testimony given before the IMT at
>Kaltenbrunner's trial? Amazing, eh?  Ho"ss wasn't tortured or coerced for
>his testimony before the IMT (or later in Poland). In fact, Ho"ss, in his
>memoirs talks about this (and his imprisonment in Poland).

>Even more amazing, later, when Ho"ss wrote his memoirs while in custody in
>Poland, he _retracted_ the number he gave the IMT for the death toll at
>Auschwitz (2.5 million) and gave a _lower_ death toll (1.3 million). Some
>coercion! Yessiree, "forcing" Ho"ss to recant and give a _lower_ death
>toll.... 

	Do you not find it a touch interesting that he wrote those "memoirs" in
one month while conducting his own defense?  Do you not find it
interesting that that "memoirs" were in fact his own death warrant but
were not introduced by the prosecutions?  

	Have you never asked why he was not accused at Nuremberg?  Can you
explain that?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:02:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4ral8l$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r5akg$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r5sft$180@news1.io.org> <4r7dre$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r9job$378c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  1:05:41 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r7dre$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>>
>>alec@gryn.org@   (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>>>>	Alec, old buddy, please respond if you are ready.
>>>>

>>>Sorry, Matt, I'm busy with important things. Taking you on is merely a 
>>>demonstration of greater ability and that I have already proven elsewhere.

>>>When I have time, I'll demonstrate it again. Your technique and skills
>have 
>>>deteriorated, so it shouldn't take long.

>>	Whenever you are ready.  

>Gads!  I sense a twosome of trolls is in the offing.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                      




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 13:07:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:42:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net> <1JUL199620463025@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>		Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>> 
>>	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>>Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>>sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>>comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>>is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
>> 
>>	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
>>After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
>>those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
>>had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
>>previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
>>exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
>>1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction.

>    BEHOLD THE LIE: Historians have never claimed that 4,000m000 people
>    were exterminated at Auschwitz.  Note that Tommy does not provide
>    historical citations for his claim - he never does when he reposts this
>    drivel.

	It is an amazing position that historians know better than an impartial
court with an army of investigators determined just after the war.  

	That individual historians without a fraction of the resources can find
differently is a monument to weaseling out of the findings of the
kangaroo trials at Nuremberg and nothing less.  

>     >Among those dedicated to
>>keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
>>so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
>>process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
>>bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
>>style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 
>> 
>>	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>>Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>>give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>> 
>>                            --------
>>	
>>       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>>at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>>former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>>Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>>are much lower than previously thought?"
>>*("well over" meaning 4 million)

>    BEHOLD THE LIE: Tommy is presenting this paragraph out of context.  In
>    context at SWC it clearly is among a list of questions posed by
>    deniers.  What Tommy prints here is the denier question verbatim.  
>    What Tommy does not print is the response to the question which
>    explains that the count of deaths at Auschwitz has always be estimated
>    by historians to be in the range of one million or so (actually 800,000
>    to 1,500,000 in different studies.)

>    You get the point.  The rest of Tommy's lies are deleted.

	In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 14:57:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:17:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4ram58$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31D8064F.7536@unb.ca> <4r9soi$d8o@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <31D8064F.7536@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>         I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>>>         Do you folks really want to continue this?

>>What's the matter?  Your "secret techniques" not working as well
>>as you had hoped?

>Is he still here, Keith? Oh, yes! I do recall seeing a G*WER
>REPORT earlier today... looks like he's still here, but
>running out of steam. Perhaps his alterposters tired of the
>game, and left the Giwerdly Lion to his own manure pile.

	Good only Overtaken By Events shows up only to post the slurs while his
dumbass flunkies he has permitted to call themselves "co-webmasters"
pretend to speak for Nizkor when in fact they are only self-aggrandizing
flunkies.  

>(Actually, it's sort of pathetic... "do you folks really
>want to continue this" means he's getting weary - he's the
>only one playing - with himself, so to speak.)

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | Shofar FTP Archives
>-----------------------| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network      | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 14:57:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4raprr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qnp57$rri@news.enter.net> <4r25vq$f0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31d53007.3320765@news.pacificnet.net> <4r425c$ijf@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  2:24:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <31d53007.3320765@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:

>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>	Holocaust eyewitness testimonies are like Holocaust photographs,
>>they do more to undo the story than to support it.

>Mr. Moran is incorrect here.  While I have noted some parts of this
>testimony that I find inconsistent, one should not expect every witness
>to be omniscient.  Witnesses make factual errors on details that does
>not mean the overall picture is wrong.

>Mr. Moran, have you ever witnessed a speech by President Clinton?  
>What color tie was he wearing?

	I have witnessed via TV speeches by Clinton.  Never have I seen him
levitate nor any other impossible in reality event, although I am
certain liberals will swear to levitation or some such impossible thing.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 14:57:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47776 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:32:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r8r6h$p9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com compared himself to Dr. Keren:

>> Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated
>> Keren spams would it not?

>Mr. Giwer, you have sent almost half a megabyte worth of articles to
>the net in less than two weeks, none of which contain a single byte
>of text which has not been posted previously.

>Almost 500,000 bytes, and not a single one of them is new:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty

>In two weeks.

>The figures speak for themselves.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

	But as you know they were all in response to mindless attacks on me.  

	So why do you complain about my response rather than the attacks?

	Could it be you are biased in some manner?  
	



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 14:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: happens all the time
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:31:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4ra5bv$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4qhpue$86v@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> UNKNOWING VICTIM. Eva Langto, a San Francisco housewife, went to the
>> >>    Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. recently, and, as all visitors,
>> >> was handed a folded card with the name and birthday of a holocaust
>> >> victim.  When Mrs. Langton opened her card, she was astonished to read:
>> >> "Eva Heyman, February 13." Mrs. Langton was born Eva Heyman on February
>> >> 13 in Berlin
>> 
>> >The point being...?
>> 
>>         How many others?  
>> 
>>         Again it brings up back to how the numbers were established.  
> 
>Uh, excuse me, folks, but the entire premise of this is WRONG. Not unusual
>for Mr. Giwer, who has never been to the Museum, and therefore does not
>know that MANY of the cards handed out are NOT of victims.
> 
>Some are victims. Some are survivors. Some are soldiers.
> 
>Yet another example of Mr. Giwer's inability to understand or bother to
>learn basic facts.
> 
>And he says *we're* unbelievable?!

	Looks like she was rather surprised also.  

	She must not have been briefed either.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 14:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:39:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4raj2e$ae6@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  2:43:05 AM PDT 1996
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>	From their own website...
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>are Jewish sources. 
>>
>>	Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>from their own site.  We all know that it what it is.

>    Yes.  Off-topic.  I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>track?

	It has been clearly pointed out that Nizkor is clearly a subject here.
I have even used their files to deal with the current form of the myth.


>>	It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.

>[Poem snipped]

>    Mr. Giwer, the posting of Vogon poetry is a violation of the Geneva
>Convention.

	A death threat however disguised is still a death threat.   

>>	It also appears they want this man dead.
>>
>>JDL in America
>>
>>                         David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
>>
>>
>>By Robert J. Newman
>>
>>He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
>>deception. Just like a
>>low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
>>his venom to
>>innocent victims.
>>
>>This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
>>denier of
>>the Six Million Jews.

>    Of course, the revisionists haven't liked him too much since he
>announced that he is satisfied that there was a homicidal gas chamber
>built and used at Natzweiler.

>    I wonder if he has any friends left at all.

	I could care less.  They clearly appear to want him dead.  

>[remainder deleted]

>    Aside from the part about Cole, how is this on-topic for this
>newsgroup?  I thought you wanted to stick to the topic?

	The Gang of Six is clearly on topic here until the coordinated effort
stops.  

>    Any cremation computations yet?  Or any reaction to my article in
>rebuttal to Berg's paper?

	What is your problem here?  Still can't reconcile that pure jewish fat
in the Hebrew Union sausage?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 17:20:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:56:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4ra6r2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d7d8ff.1703608@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:59:30 PM CDT 1996
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>                       BEHOLD THE ABSURD



>>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>>trying to escape and killed them.
>> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
>> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
>> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

>Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
>will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
>years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
>any other "years" the witness testified to.

	Every three hours, three minutes per boxcar load.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 17:20:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:56:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r7t87$r2l@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>[deleted]

>>>    Giwer went this route with McFee once.  All it did was make Giwer look
>>>    stupid.  One has to wonder why he is going this route again...

>>I rather think the answer is quite simple, Mr. Mittleman.  Giwer seems to
>>excel at perpetual recycling  - of himself, his modes and his lies. The
>>very best efforts of cobblers and ghost-writers cannot succeed in helping
>>him overcome this handicap.  Perhaps they'll eventually realize that, as
>>we have known for quite some time:  You can dress a troll up, but you just
>>can't take him anywhere.

>I am not so sure if Giwer excels at this trait, but there is no doubt that
>he is unable to control it.  Part of the reason why it is so easy to
>manipulate him.

>You are, of course, aware of the following?

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                           
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 17:20:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47807 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:03:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4ralbt$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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alec@gryn.org@   (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <4r9job$378c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>>In article <4r7dre$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>said:
>>
>>>	Whenever you are ready.  
>>
>>Gads!  I sense a twosome of trolls is in the offing.

>Hardly. 

>When I have time, just watch. 

>Matt is easy - if you know how. 

>And I do.

>The only thing is that I'm busy and can only type the occasional message for a 
>while.

>Matt's self-opinion to the contrary, he really isn't high on my list of priorities.

	As I have noted your constant statements of this without demonstration
become very annoying.  It is like McFly claiming he can use a keyboard
and chew gum at the same time.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 17:20:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47810 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:31:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rajfc$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Keith Morrison (t08o@unb.ca) wrote:
>: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: 
>: >         As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>: > Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>: > democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>: > work.  It is race neutral.
>: 
>: Race neutral?  I'm sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>: who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>: anything about National Socialism and its history.

>Giwer doesn't have to know anything about National Socialism in order to
>pronounce upon it, just as he doesn't have to know anything about history,
>law, chemistry or magnetic recording technology in order to give the
>definitive accounts of them.  He is Giwer.  Resistance is futile.

	And you, on the other hand, are an expert in all such matters so that
you can judge.  Or am I mistaken in the position you are taking?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 18:31:22 PDT 1996
Article: 47814 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:57:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4rahfj$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31CEAE22.7F94@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>> Chuck Ferree writes:
>> 
>> Ehrlich606, come on, fella, what the hell are you doing? You like 
>> banging your noggin against trees? Don't it ring your chimes a lot? 
>> Chuck
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ehrlich606 wrote:
>> > 
>> > In article <31cecba3.250758108@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
>> > Curtis) writes:
>> 
>> 
>> > 
>> > >>
>> > >>Why don't we start with the level of honor shown by people who
>refuse to play fair and openly, like everyone else. (Except a few
>chickens)
>> clips
>> 
>> Talk about pointless statements. Jeez!!


>Indeed. Mr. E seems to be excelling at pointless statements lately. Must
>be the "new" image he's trying to cultivate. Making pointless statements
>must be helpfull in sucking-up to the G*wer-Troll.... 

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 18:31:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:26:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <4raj4l$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Keith Morrison  writes:

>> ...assuming that revisionist/deniers actually have a point, how can
>> you reasonably come to the conclusion that [the Holocaust] was
>> greatly exaggerated *without* invoking some kind of conspiracy to
>> alter the truth?

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> As to a *conspiracy* let's keep in mind that the Soviet Union was
>> until very recently a closed society, and whatever the apparatus came
>> up with was the truth.  We know that they faked materials to get John
>> Demjanjuk.  We know that they faked materials about Katyn Forest.  We
>> also know that they faked materials that were used at Nuremberg, at
>> the very least, the solemn declarations that a lot more people died
>> at the exterminations than we hold today.  Are we all done with
>> revising the truths of the past, of the Holocaust?  I don't _think_
>> so.  That's all.

>Let me give some background to the question, if I may, so that we all
>understand the full impact what's being asked.  Keep in mind that the
>denier "theory" is as follows:

>   1. No plan or policy to exterminate European Jews.
>   2. No gas chambers used in said alleged extermination effort.
>   3. The number murdered was far less than six million
>      (usually given as 0.6 to 1.0 million at the most).

	And why is it you never state it correctly?  That there is no physical
evidence for your gas chambers is much more correct.  

>To even consider the possibility that these things are true, without
>supposing a massive conspiracy to forge, plant and distort evidence, and
>to coerce testimony from hundreds of inmates and SS, is preposterous.

	What physical evidence?  

>I spent a little while talking about this in QAR 1, which I'll throw out
>for public discussion.  I've ellipsised out the parts that digress from
>the main thrust, which concerns the conspiracy theory.

>   ...consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the
>   testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is
>   automatically dismissed as unconvincing. 

	Which of course falsely assumes that every single inmate reported
gassing.  

This total dismissal of
>   inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the
>   Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of
>   Holocaust-denial.

	Testimony produced by the Russians is not considered legimate outside of
Russia save since they figured out what democracy was all about.  Why
would you accept it from earlier?  
   
>   This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the
>   attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a
>   secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and
>   forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war,
>   they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.

	There you go again, making up the conspiracy charge when it is clearly
made in Russia by folks expert in show trials and falsified evidence.  
  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 18:31:24 PDT 1996
Article: 47819 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:05:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4raouf$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  2:08:31 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:


>>	Poor me.  I just don't have the access to a mess of psyrinks to poll on
>>the subject.  Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>>people you folks can get to in an instant?  

>Dear me.  I do hope Mr. McVay is out there somewhere, able to translate this
>latest contribution.  A "psyrink".



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                       
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 18:31:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47825 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:59:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>: 	You, too, make the direct connection between Christians and the
>: holocaust.  

>No, not direct--but it's hard to deny that the pervasive antisemitism
>which, over hundreds of years, had built up throughout Western society
>was often nourished and encouraged by the church.  Christians are not
>to blame for the holocaust, but the church as an institution bears some
>responsibility for the climate that allowed it to happen.

	Which is of course nonsense.  The Church was merely a part of the feudal
system just as everything else was.  The same religion was simply one of
many requirements of fealty to the next guy up the pecking order.  

>: 	As you should be aware, Christians have been much worse upon their
>: fellow Christians than they ever were on Jews.  Or have you met an
>: Albagensian lately?  The last I heard they were all murdered in a single
>: night.  Quite an accomplishment for a mere conspiracy.  There were many
>: others that no longer exist including the original gnostic wing.  

>The Cathari, or Albigensians, were gradually suppressed over a period
>of about two hundred years--not "murdered in a single night," as Giwer
>asserts.  

	Who were the one's in France that were gotten in a single night?  

Regardless, it's difficult to see why the fact that the church
>has persecuted heretics and schismatics in any way palliates the 
>persecution of Jews.  If there were any Cathari around, I'd be surprised
>if they didn't find proselytism distasteful.

	One has to wonder how you think they spread in the first place.  Without
proselytism?  	

>: 	As for the need for conversion, that was a teaching of the Christian
>: sect of Jews long before it was differentiated by Paul.  The original
>: teaching as ascribed to that Jew, Yeshua.  It is repeated by his
>: faithful sidekick, the Jew Simon Peter who, although he approved Paul's
>: variation, was not a part of it.  

>In what way does this make it less distasteful?

	It gives you its origin from within the Jewish religion.  Perhaps if
Saul had not fallen off his horse and finished the job he started ...  

>: >In the second place, Giwer did not say "in the mind of
>: >the Rabbi in question"--he said "in the minds of the non-goy".  In other
>: >words, the Rabbi speaks for all Jews, because all Jews think alike.  
>: >Classic antisemitism. Fodder for the ZOG files, if ever I saw it.
>: 
>: 	When I read of other Jews and in particular Rabbis condemning this
>: statement you will have grounds for saying they think differently.

>In other words, every time a Jew says something, every other Jew has
>to weigh in at once with a denial or be forever associated with the 
>words of his coreligionist.  Giwer, do you really not understand why
>this sort of statement appears antisemitic?

	Where have you been?  I have seen the game played too many times to miss
it.  It also expresses itself in tempering any criticism of fellow Jews
or "our enemies will use it against us."  You may never have heard such
remarks but I will be surprised if you make that claim.  

	It is rather similar to Reagan's Rule, do not speak ill of a fellow
Republican.  That is hardly an "anti-Republican" observation.  But when
it comes to making the same sort of observation about Jews, it suddenly
becomes antisemitic. 

	Of course, the ball is still in your court to show that the equivalent
of Reagan's Rule has been violated by Jews.  However, you have chosen
the standard response, rather than address the message, you attack the
messenger.  

>: Until then, you are the only one making the claim that all Jews think
>: alike.  

>I am?  Were did I make such a claim?  

	You are the one who introduced the idea that the rabbi speaks for all
Jews, not me.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 22:15:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47831 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:02:35 GMT
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dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?
>>	Lots of things.  Shut up McFly for one thing.  

>	You place Ken's postings in the same category as the below?
>I know Ken flames, but he has also posted some very relevant material.

>>	Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.
>>	Cease ALL "troll" references.  
>>	Good enough for openers?  

>	How's about calling Ken by his proper name?

	What do you think his name is?


>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>           Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
>                    George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
>                       _The Rejected Statement_




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 22:15:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47843 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He was Blowing Smoke
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:08:32 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>  
>>  >	That's a lie.  Produce those "legalistic" statements.  You've made the 
>>  >assertion, Matty poo, now prove it.

>	To which Matty poo responrded:


>>  
>>  "The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
>>  particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>>  already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>>  was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>>  political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>>  pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>>  It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>>  [Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>>  those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

>	We are now agreed that Giwer knew of no such statements.  He lied 
>again.

>>  >	L'il Tommy, whose outright lies and blantent anti-Semitism, you defend 
>>  >has claimed he can produce "hunreds" of examples of support.  I challenge him 
>>  >to do so.
>>  
>>  	He will take care of his statements and I will take care of mine.  


>	Since Giwer did not "take care' of his statements, we are all agreed that 
>Matty poo lied.,  He's very good at that.

>	--YFE
>	
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
close this time?  

" The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet ... All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking...Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over."

IMT XXXII - pp. 156-157. 

	
 	This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945.  It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert's
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69.  To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  2 22:15:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47845 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forging Ahead
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:11:43 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

>Rudenko?!  Man, he gets around.  I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can be
>steamed at.  I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>paragraph.

        From the late 30s to 1981, a 40+ year career and a General in
1946.  Myself I would be looking for a father and son operation or
coincidence.  

        But it is correct that the KGB and its many predecessor
organization were heavily into forgery sometimes to the point where you
can get the impression that when there was to particular objective they
kept their hands in it just for practice.  Another section was into
bribery for disinformation and started the infamous AIDS was a US germ
warfare story.  

        Given that the Soviets generally copied the Tzarist government
bureaucracies I would not be surprised to find this a centuries old
specialization.  
        At times the clumsiness of the forgeries is laughable but
usually good enough for people who expect to read what they say.  The
serious work generally requires other sources to indicate it is forged,
that being the reference to a lack of archival history.  It is also why
I occasionally point out the lack of a chain of custody of the evidence
being presented at the IMT.  

        Even actively trying to avoid watching the OJ trial everyone
should have noticed how important the chain of custody is in any trial.
Of course I have never seen the raw IMT records but neither have I heard
any reference to anyone who actually recovered any record or any other
link in the chain of custody.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47850 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:07:02 GMT
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>"My opinions, the
>only opinions
>worth having."
>	M. Giwer

>"Loquientiae multum,
>sapientiae parum."
>	Sallust


>   		A question of appropriatness


>   Is it fitting to introduce contributions to this newsgroup which
>base on the essays published at Mr. Giwer's web-site? Would the
>open use of these often senselessly polemic texts mean in itself
>an unjustified attack on an author who would be exposed and ridiculed
>out of context? Or would pointing at these texts lead the discussion
>away from the topic "holocaust-revisionism" and to different matters
>who certainly would need correction, but are irrelevant anyway?
>These questions need careful consideration.

>   It would be tempting and easy to take over the ductus of the
>"revisionists" and to demolish Mr. Giwer's texts in a highly
>effective but polemic way. Indeed, some "traditionalists" try to
>fight fire with fire and to meet the holocaust-deniers with their
>own weapons. Often enough, such confrontations mutate to an exchange
>of vulgar outbursts beyond every decency. This has to be avoided by
>all means. I myself am not completely free of guild on that account.
>For the sake of unnecessary sarcasm, in my contribution dealing with
>Mr. Giwer's feeble attempts as an student of literature, I did not
>deal sufficiently with the point I wished to make. I did not
>elaborate sufficiently on Mr. Giwer's false conception of the
>academic discussion and on his discoursive autism. Now, I think the
>tone of my essay was inappropiate, yet I still think its intention
>is justified.

>   Is it therefore possible to find a general criterium which helps
>to discern in what boundaries text like those by Mr. Giwer may be
>taken into the discussion of this newsgroup? To answer this, the
>present discussion itself has to be regarded. The topic of this
>newsgroup, "Holocaust-revisionism", is a historical topic. I could
>be expected that the discussion would be done following the methods
>of the historian: use of printed or photographical sources with
>complete annotations, their interpretation following a rational and
>comprehensible argumentation, leading to a comprehensive thesis
>which is offered the public for further discussion. Already a short
>glance at the articles posted here shows that there is nothing like
>that. From the side of the "traditionalists" a multitude of
>sources and commentaries is given frequently, but unfortunately not
>always. The untiring work of Dr. Keren is especially important here.
>The answer from the "revisionist" side, overwhelmingly often by
>Mr. Giwer himself, exhaust themselves most times in denying with
>one or two lines of own text isolated points, often of minor impor-
>tance. Own quotations of sources can nearly never be found with
>"revisionists", if this is the rare case, they are often enough
>torn out of their context or (knowingly?) misunderstood. Often,
>the discussion is pushed on scientific grounds by the "revisionists",
>in the wrong assumption that historiographic methods are identical
>to scientific methods, and that therefore induction and assumption
>are valid to the same extent as in science. Many times, the
>"revisionist" discourse gets completely lost in the playing grounds
>of sophistic speculations. The reason for this is of course that
>there is no supporting material for holocaust-deniers because there
>can be no doubt that holocaust has happened. But another reason is
>a special "revisionist" concept of history.

>   The discussion over the last two weeks has been symptomatic for
>this particular view on history. One utterance by Mr. Giwer was
>especially memorable for me. He depicted Dr. Keren's posts quoting
>the testimonies of witnesses of the SS crimes as completely
>irrelevant. On the first sight, such a remark is extremely
>astonishing. Such testimonies are historical sources, even if they
>are subjective and therefore have to be qualified carefully by
>the historian. Such sources serve the purpose of "finding the
>historical truth", the cause which is always given by the deniers
>as an apology for their acting. On the second sight, this remark
>shows that for the "revisionists" the discussion of a historical
>problem, in this case the Holocaust, is not lead for the sake of
>illuminating a past reality and therefore is on principle neutral,
>but that the discourse gains it reason out of itself and only for them.
>Mr. Giwer wants to sustain the meaning, which the discussion presents to
>him, by trying to manipulate it following his own set of rules. He
>wants to decide what kind of sources may be used, which topics may
>be discussed, which contributions are in context and which are out.
>This way, he tries to construct a personal possessionship of the
>discussion. By this ownership, his discussing of a historical past
>becomes the expression for an entirely subjective concept of history.
>Because a source has per se no value as a statement on the past, but
>gains its meaning only through the positive appreciation of the
>"revisionist", every objective talk on history ends. "History" in
>the eyes of the "revisionist" therefore finds its existence only
>as an affirmative instrument of their own weltanschauung. Thus Mr.
>Giwer's recent threats and "spams" can only be understood in the way
>that the discussion has started to threaten his "opinions", therefore
>he was forced to intercept as a regulator. From my point of view, this
>is of course a highly appreciable result. "Der getroffene Hund bellt,"
>as a German proverb says.

>   On the other hand, this concept of history makes it impossible to
>convince a holocaust-denier in any point. Every attempt to meet them
>on the level of reason must be vain and will probably be followed by
>an emotional response - as this would be the case with an attack on a
>religious belief. Indeed, Mr. Giwer's frequent accusations of the
>"holohuggers" being "religios follower of the cult of holocaust" is
>betraying. His attacks, as the attacks of a "believer in true reason"
>against the "emotional errants" reminds of the attacks of a heretic
>on orthodox. Not that the holocaust research would be connected in any
>way with such connotations, but that Mr. Giwer uses such metaphors,
>hints at him thinking in such categories, at least subconciously.

>   Lipstadt draws in "Denying the Holocaust" the conclusion, that every
>conversation with holocaust-deniers is contra-productive and therefore
>to be avoided. I do not follow Lipstadt here. I mean that one has to
>take the stand against deniers' claims by all means and that one has to
>take into account their special concept of history. That does not at all
>mean that we have to let ourselves be drawn into their weird dialectics.
>On contrary, this means that the discussion of historical facts using
>sources must only be a part of the discourse. The other, and as I think
>more important, part must be analysing "revisionist" argumentation and
>their travesty of history. And here the true motives of the holocaust
>deniers must be brought in the open. As long as we accept their claim of
>just defending their position "for the sake of truth", we will not be
>able to doubt the justification of their acting. The search for truth is
>the most important and the purest motive of the historian.

>   To disprove the "revisionist" claim of searching for the truth, we may
>also use material which is connected only indirectly with this newsgroup.
>It is appropriate to quote an essay in which Mr. Giwer proposes to intern
>those dependent on the social services in concentration camps. This allows
>conclusions on his motives of trying to improve the image of German
>fascism. It is possible to present Mr. Giwer's opinion that Socialism,
>Fascism and Liberalism are synonymous because it illustrates his inability
>to use historical terms in their precise meaning and therefore his
>incompetence of judging historical sources. It is fitting to demonstrate
>Mr. Giwers stubborn habit of searching only for cues in source texts and
>to connect them in his mind to the meaning he wants them to have. This
>shows sufficiently his attitude that history may be manipulated for the
>ends of appologizing his opinions.

>   The utterances of the "revisionists" must themselves be taken into
>account as a source of historical studies. As long as this does not take
>the forms of a polemic, we do not need to show any consideration. Remarks
>like Mr. Giwer's protestations he wouldn't need to prove the theses put
>forward in his essays because these are "opinion-pieces" and therefore
>above critique in a public discussion, are in this context amusing, if
>anything. Nethertheless they should be documented because they are telling.

>  To these ends I will (when I have time to do so) then and there
>dissect some of Mr. Giwer's more interesting essays. I hope he will not
>withstand the temptation to answer and thus to expose himself even more.
>I will collect his contributions to the discussion and to condense them
>as a criticism of "revisionist" techniques of discussion shown on a
>grateful object. This is in my opinion the only way to defend speaking
>with holocaust-deniers.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47866 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:05:46 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>> 
>>>>		Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>>>> 
>>>>	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>>>>Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>>>>sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>>>>comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>>>>is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
>>>> 
>>>>	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
>>>>After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
>>>>those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
>>>>had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
>>>>previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
>>>>exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
>>>>1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction.
>> 
>>>    BEHOLD THE LIE: Historians have never claimed that 4,000m000 people
>>>    were exterminated at Auschwitz.  Note that Tommy does not provide
>>>    historical citations for his claim - he never does when he reposts this
>>>    drivel.
>> 
>>	It is an amazing position that historians know better than an impartial
>>court with an army of investigators determined just after the war.  
>> 
>>	That individual historians without a fraction of the resources can find
>>differently is a monument to weaseling out of the findings of the
>>kangaroo trials at Nuremberg and nothing less.  
>> 
>>>     >Among those dedicated to
>>>>keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
>>>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
>>>>so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
>>>>process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
>>>>bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
>>>>style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 
>>>> 
>>>>	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>>>>Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>>>>give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>>>> 
>>>>                            --------
>>>>	
>>>>       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>>>>at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>>>>former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>>>>Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>>>>are much lower than previously thought?"
>>>>*("well over" meaning 4 million)
>> 
>>>    BEHOLD THE LIE: Tommy is presenting this paragraph out of context.  In
>>>    context at SWC it clearly is among a list of questions posed by
>>>    deniers.  What Tommy prints here is the denier question verbatim.  
>>>    What Tommy does not print is the response to the question which
>>>    explains that the count of deaths at Auschwitz has always be estimated
>>>    by historians to be in the range of one million or so (actually 800,000
>>>    to 1,500,000 in different studies.)
>> 
>>>    You get the point.  The rest of Tommy's lies are deleted.
>> 
>>	In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.  

>    I wouldn't use terms that strong, but yes.  Well before you arrived at
>    alt.revisionism both Gord McFee and I posted doubts and qualms about
>    the propriety of the trials at Nuremburg.

	And your objections to the findings were?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47868 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazis NOT racist NOR antisemitic!
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:33:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4rcira$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ravql$o2t@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  8:36:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>---------------------------------------------------
>Extra, extra! Nazis NOT racist, as Famous holocaust
>researcher tells. Read all about it!
>---------------------------------------------------

>[Masterhistorian Matt "I've read'em all" Giwer claims:]

>>>sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:
>[...]
>>>Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>>>it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>>>Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle.  In
>>>this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>>>Socialist philosophy, is the highest embodiment of the human form, and at
>>>the other end is the Jewish race.  A number of lesser races are in between.

>>	You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>>further.
>>	I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>>everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.

>   If I interpret the strange English of the second sentence correctly, Mr.
>Giwer is flatly denying that national socialism had the concept of competing
>races and anti-semitism. A daring point of view, indeed! Please compare
>another of Mr. Giwer's many opinions, which he wrote a couple of weeks ago
>in a response to me:

>>[Giwer answered]
>>> The superior race gimmick was an idea of Nazism. It was not part of
>>> Fascism. The closest Mussolini got to it was waxing eloquent on the
>         (Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms, 17 Jun 1996)

>   He seems to have changed his point of view a bit, doesn't he? Well, it
>doesn't really matter, since it's only op-ed format anyway, and therfore:

>**********************************************************************
>Mr. Giwer's contributions are purely subjective and entirely emotional
>**********************************************************************

>   Needless to say that Mr. Giwer neither sees the necessity to support this
>inane claim by any evidence, nor to point out, _why_ the above description
>should be wrong. Never mind, nobody would have expected something different.

>   This is not the first time Mr. Giwer lands on his belly when messing
>around with historical terms. I would not go so far, as to say that the idea of
>racial competition is the main defining point of national socialism, but it
>is without doubt one of the most important points. Apart from that, this
>aspect has been depicted very accurately by the first writer. Indeed, the
>Nazis saw "the Jew" was seen as an antithesis to the idealized "Aryan".
>While the first was the negative principle of cultural destruction, the
>second was the positive principle of cultural construction. "The Jew" may
>not be fitted easily in the qualitative hierarchy of race. Although he
>was regarded as inferior by the Nazis, he was also attributed with quasi
>diabolical powers which made him incredibly dangerous. The Nazis did regard
>no other race per se as nearly as dangerous, but only by the infiltration by
>"the Jew". Therefore, the symmetric picture laid out by the first author
>is entirely correct. I really would like to support this point by quotations
>from "Mein Kampf", but due to censorship, it is nearly impossible to
>obtain a copy here in Germany. But I can say that, when I read the German
>1934 edition in Britain, I found numerous passages exactly stating the
>above view. Jäckel has argued in "Hitler's Weltanschauung" that the
>extreme anti-semitism was the extreme anti-semitism was the only consisting
>doctrine in an entirely fuzzy and ungraspable amalgam of irrational and
>unsystematic ideas. Thus it had a predominant position in the NS "philosophy",
>but more important was the lack of consistency itself which made the
>national socialism an ideal instrument for grasping power. Yet in the
>insanity of racism lay also the source of the destruction of the nazis
>because it drove Hitler into the catastrophe of war against the Soviet
>Union.

>  The question remains, why Mr. Giwer tries to falsify the identity of
>fascist ideology. Could it be that he tries to make this ideology
>representable because he sympathizes with many of of its aspects, as e.g.
>the leading role of a minority elite?

>Nele

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 02:42:12 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  9:45:42 PM CDT 1996
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alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg] [Sun 30 Jun 96
>19:01][Tue 02 Jul 96 18:08][0]*>

> >> No more needs to be said on this nonsensical claim of
> >> disbelief.

> mnc>     Would not the innocent say the same thing?  Particularly
> mnc> when there was no physical or forensic evidence of gassing
> mnc> introduced.

>(*SIGH*) Matt - you really need to study up on a few modern cases as
>samples of sufficiency of evidence. I won't ask you to go too far
>into the past, so your library will have *SOMETHING* on the subject.

	You mean the rules have changed on the need to have a body and a murder
weapon and to establish that the cause of death was the murder weapon?
Was I asleep when that change went through?  

	As to sufficiency, it is referred to as beyond a reasonable doubt down
this way.  

	One indirect method of establishing the gassing would have been simply
collecting the entrance records, subtracting the cause of death and
survivor numbers and then introducing gassing to explain the difference.
Save of course that the gassing requires all the gassed to be
undocumented upon entering.  

> >> If the defendants were contesting the gassings in 1946, why are
> >> you claiming that the gassing story came out in the 50's and
> >> 60's?

> mnc>     I am not making that claim.  I have said it was codified in
> mnc> those years with the elimination of steaming, electrocution and
> mnc> vacuum chambers and with the elimination of gas chambers in

>Matt, your memory is like a sieve. No, a very coarse colander.

>BTW - yes there were vacuum chambers used. The problem is not that
>they were used to kill innocent victims - it was that they weren't
>used as mass execution instruments, like the gas chambers. They were
>used in experiments.

	Although I have yet to come up with the original description of using
vacuum chambers for mass murder I have come up with the originals
describing steaming and electrocution for mass murder.  I even have a
description of the boiler room and the control system for the steaming.


	If you would like more, I have a description of bodies being burned
without fuel.  

>Please, Matt, surely you remember the basic rules about eye-witness
>testimony!

	Yes, when they testify to something physically impossible they were not
a witness.  

> mnc> vacuum chambers and with the elimination of gas chambers in
> mnc> Germany.  All of those and more had to be done AFTER all those

>Here we go again. There *was* a gas chamber in Dachau! It was not a
>major extermination tool, it didn't have the size or capacity of the
>Birkenau models - but it existed!

>Must we repeat this yet again?

>Try to remember that your claims were already refuted, debunked and
>disposed of years ago - in Debate, Opinion, everywhere.

>Good grief, Matt - it just isn't worth all of this time to argue
>facts with you if you simply restart an argument that you've lost
>repeatedly!

	All I have received in response is mindless reiteration and declaration
of victory as you are doing.  

>Surely you can come up with an argument that actually requires
>effort to answer! You haven't lost it all, have you?

>Where and with whom have you been arguing?!? AOL? Tzippy the Lippy?
>DKimmel? Dahlman? With arguments like your latest here, I'd put my
>kid up against you and it still wouldn't be fair to you!

>Shape up! Show some rational behavior! Argue to the point! Stop
>trying for the spurious thrill of the troll!

	Did you miss the posts regarding the large scale delousing chambers for
mattresses and the like as well as the standard Degesh models?  I even
posted a picture and a diagram of the standard model.  At least those
did such fundamental things as 

> >> out in the mid-forties?

> mnc>     The value of the AG messages was to point out what people
> mnc> are saying now was also known then, that there were no gas
> mnc> chambers in Germany despite the IMT charges that there were, and
> mnc> that all of the claims of them came from Russia which not not

>Except that Al was a blatant liar!

	Other than an opinion from one side of family feud, there still were no
gas chambers in Germany despite the story of the US Army.  He says, he
always said that.  Thus a point of congruency.  

> mnc> that all of the claims of them came from Russia which not not
> mnc> permit anyone else to investigate.  It supports what is known
> mnc> now, that the entire gassing story came from Russia.

>(*SIGH AGAIN*) Matt, m'boy! That is so inane that it won't even get
>a rise in alt.conspiracy!

	It is not a conspiracy in the least.  It is a statement of fact.  Even
the French presented Russian generated information including
documentation that people were infected with cancer, something we can
not do even today.  

> >> Please try to be consistent.

> mnc>     You need to follow the conference more closely than you can
> mnc> with the work load you have now.

>Reading takes little effort. I scan at better than 9000 wpm and have
>full comprehension at 4500+. Answering takes more effort.

	Type faster?  

>When the value content is high, I slow down. When it's low, I speed
>up.

>Sorry, Matt, but lately I've gone thru your stuff at full speed.
>Just repetition. No sharpness of mind there at all!

>Whups! My timer went off! End of letter.

	Saw something with huge snaggly teeth?  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47891 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:32:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4r9qtd$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:

>Mr Giwer:

>It is quite clear that you are incapable of  engaing in a cogent
>discussion.  We're discussing the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews and you start
>to talk about "ancient Israelites".  It boggles the mind to see your
>logic.  

	We were talking about genocide were we not?  There are not that many
examples of it.  

>You obviously have a serious problem with Jews.  

	Not that I am aware of.  I read the bible once.  It is all in there.  

I don't know
>whether this arose from your upbringing or like Hitler, you kept losing
>out to Jews in school or in the workplace and built up a resentment and
>hatred.  I don't really care.

	Obviously one of those very strange people who enjoys casting aspersions
upon people who simply talk about what is written.  Or are you denying
that it what is written?  

>Over the last several weeks, I have attempted to gain an understanding of
>the Revisionist viewpoint.  If you must know, my curiosity in this subject
>was motivated by an editorial which George F. Will had written discussing
>a lunch he had with Mr. Mark Weber of the IHR.  I wanted to learn for
>myself whther there was any basis in your position, or as Will concluded,
>you were just a bunch of zanies on the lunatic fringe, a sort of "flat
>earth society".

	I have not found much use for Will myself.  He is much too politically
correct.  

>It seems pretty clear to me that your arguments are delusional.  

	Which ones are you talking about?  

However,
>like you, I am a strong believer in the First Amendment.  

	It is wise of you to believe in what you can do nothing about.  

I believe that
>the best way to combat your "arguments" is to put them up to scrutiny and
>to refute them.  I am left with one question, and one which Will posed
>which I paraphrase:  What kind of person would spend his or her life
>engaging in this type of activity?   

	The kind of person who also debunks UFO believers and creationists.  It
is an honored avocation with a long tradition.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 05:54:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r0d05$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele) said:

>>
>>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts
>>with quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie
>>to forbid him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the
>>point that I do not open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure
>>that it is again one of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing
>>so, I was quite interested in his contributions. But now... I wonder
>>whether other people have come too to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make
>>everybody ignore him?

>No, Mr. Giwer tries to make people *respond* to him.  Every time someone
>does, he wins.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                          
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47895 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 05:53:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4r7par$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote:

>In article <4r53i0$g69@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:

>>I will extend the concept now to this board.  It is likely that there is a
>>full routine, but I don't know what it is: having been here for only two
>>months.  I don't know the structure well enough.  If there is a
>>predictability to what goes here, and that this is just a shadow game,
>>which I sometimes suspect, then I will log on somewhere else.

>Very good.  Mr. Ehrlich is learning.  Matt Giwer has not introduced
>anything into this discussion that was not brought up by Bob Hunt a year
>ago.  Before Bob Hunt there were others.  Bob Hunt is a lot smarter than
>Matt Giwer and if there had been a credible case he would have done a
>lot better with it.  The supposed objections to the use of Zyklon-B were
>based on ignorance then and they're based on ignorance now.  No quantity
>of insults from Matt Giwer can change that.

	You obviously have not read what I have written.  I have never said that
Zyklon B could not have been used.  But you know that.  

	So why do you create that straw man?  

>>If he is not in a position to prove something, that's one thing.  If he is
>>simply validating his skepticism, that's another.

>Yes, but his skepticism is based on distorting science that he doesn't

	You have a record of distorting science when it comes to this subject so
what is your point in making this statement?  

>>Relax.  I make no claim to scientific expertise.  I don't even think
>>Matt's comments need to be permanently confuted.  It is enough that he has
>>articulated reasons for his skepticism.  

>His understanding of the issues involved has proved to be nonexistent.
>The man doesn't even understand what an equilibrium vapor pressure is.

	On the contrary, I do.  What I do not do is imply that technical details
in the terms of correct statement of principles negates the conclusion
as you have done.  

>>I don't think this is an adversarial process, I mean in the sense of
>>hating and bearing grudges.  At least I don't want it to be.  I am
>>interested in this subject, I am convinced that revision and clarity are
>>needed, and I am following it right now.  That's all.

>Then you are naive about the motivations of many of your compatriots.

>Mr. Ehrlich,

>Do you think that Greg Raven cares about the truth?
>Do you think that the Hubers care about the truth?
>Do you think Matt Giwer or Tom Moran care about the truth?
>Do you care about it?
>Why are you here?

>Regards,

>Rich Green

	I know that Richard Green will unquestionably violate all ethical
standards to distort science to his desired conclusions.

	I know he has a guaranteed career as an "expert witness" with the
approach he has towards science.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47906 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:47:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ra4d2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rbcts$hfr@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: Marty Kelley  wrote:

>: >May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer?  How about this: 
>: 
>: >1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly 
>: >identified, documented sources to support your claims.  
>: 
>: 	That depends upon whether or not the "documentation game" is going to be
>: played.  For example, "Hilberg wrote" does not count nor does "a
>: pharmacist concluded."    
>: 
>: >2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging 
>: >in insults against others.  
>: 
>: 	I will not ignore it.  I would have thought that is clear by now.  
>: 
>: >Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the 
>: >level of discourse in this group.  
>: 
>: 	All by my self?  
>: 
>: >I'll gladly take this "pledge" myself.
>: 
>: 	Or just the two of us?  	


>Count me in, too.

	The method is very simple.  Do not engage in it and there is nothing for
me to respond to.  I would think that is very clear.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47917 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:35:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
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References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31D8064F.7536@unb.ca> <4r9soi$d8o@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4ram58$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbm74$q0g@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>	Good only Overtaken By Events shows up only to post the slurs while his
>>dumbass flunkies he has permitted to call themselves "co-webmasters"
>>pretend to speak for Nizkor when in fact they are only self-aggrandizing
>>flunkies.  

>	Giwer calling *other people* "self-aggrandizing flunkies????

	Just who do you think I work for?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47918 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:46:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ra4d2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4raqek$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbmos$r62@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  6:50:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>	A possible position.  However as you have seen the game played here
>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.  
>>	That is unacceptable.  

>	The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>side demolishes your arguments.

	The point is that similar methods are used by both sides and there is in
fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.  

	What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
their sources are unimpeachable.  

>>	Mothers are not fathers.  

>	No shit, Sherlock????!!!!!!!!!!
	
>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>posting to me and about me?  

>	Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>"simpering bitch". Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?

	HRO's posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
insults.  What makes you think she should be immune from response?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!BellSouth!newsrelay.iastate.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:20:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4r7udf$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <30JUN199607365001@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>[text deleted for brevity]
> 
>>>	Someone just might be suspicious with your knowledge of what was never
>>>posted but then that would be antisemitic or some such, would it not?  

>>    Evidence that "he" is looney.  So Ehrlich, what do you think?

>I wonder if this will be another question that causes the "honest"
>honourable gentleman to break into yet another round of what seems to
>be one of his favourite songs:  "Hello darkness, my old friend ....../
>... the sound of silence" 

>>>>    I suspect that you are not looney and are open to reason.
>>> 
>>>	I know your intimate knowledge of the exact events makes you complicite
>>>in it.  

>>    Giwer went this route with McFee once.  All it did was make Giwer look
>>    stupid.  One has to wonder why he is going this route again...

>I rather think the answer is quite simple, Mr. Mittleman.  Giwer seems
>to excel at perpetual recycling  - of himself, his modes and his lies.
>The very best efforts of cobblers and ghost-writers cannot succeed in
>helping him overcome this handicap.  Perhaps they'll eventually
>realize that, as we have known for quite some time:  You can dress a
>troll up, but you just can't take him anywhere.

>>    /re-enter killfile mode  {sheesh}

>Yes, I _do_ understand:>)

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47926 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!BellSouth!newsrelay.iastate.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a new approach
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:23:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01  2:26:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  

	Do you folks really want to continue this?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47927 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:02:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4r6to5$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qm4bv$u7u@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qnbfc$47k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4r0bgr$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4r6hk6$12nm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30  5:05:57 PM CDT 1996
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r0bgr$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele) said:

>>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>>Imagine.  Free access to the source documents, with no bowdlerism and no
>>>>censorship.
>>>
>>>	Who ever gave you the idea there was no censorship?
>>>	There is you know.

>>Schwächlich... Früher hat er sich mehr Mühe gegeben mit seinen Antworten...

>Ich glaube, dass der arme kleine Maettchen sehr muede ist.  :-)



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                       
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  

"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 


	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!BellSouth!newsrelay.iastate.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:23:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <4r7ujv$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <31d6894c.4496929@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>
>>>    I am not an expert on Kahane, but I am under the impression that most
>>>    of the Jewish community distanced themselves from him and that in the
>>>    end his political party was declared illegal in Israel?  Am I correct
>>>    in my recollections?  Isn't this - or actions like this - very
>>>    different than Giwer's suggestion that Kahane was defended or supported
>>>    by the Jewish community?
>>>
>>>    And, Tommy, isn't the fact that there was a split over Kahane's views
>>>    evidence that the Jewish community is not monolithic?

>>	I have seen very little condemnation of the JDL. In fact I can
>>only remember one from about 10 years ago.
>>	And Mr.Mittleman, one example, if it was true, would not be
>>evidence to support any "Jews are divided" (common vernacular) theme.
>>	For every example you could present, there would be hundreds to
>>show otherwise.
>>	The Jew says one thing, but does the other, more so than anyone I
>>have seen. They do more talking and advertising their divisions and
>>benevolence than the reality shows.

>And to think that L'il Tommy has the chutzpah to turn around and ask
>for "proof" that he is a hate-filled and fact-bereft anti-Semitic
>twit.

>Amazing!  Simply amazing!

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man's opinion
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47929 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:12:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r9mac$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> >As I stated before, I have SEEN letters like that. I have held them in my
>> >hand, seen the stamps and the dates on them.
 
>>         Ah, good to know that you have seen letters recieved by JEWISH family
>> members who were not taken.  Can you explain this?  
 
>If you had paid the slightest bit of attention the LAST time I posted this
>information (which was less than a week ago), you would know that the
>letters were received by family members IN AMERICA who had already
>emigrated.

	There are also reports of people in Germany receiving them.  
 
>Again: Why is that so difficult to understand?

	Where is the part about retaining the addresses and the handwriting
samples and detailed family information so that the "forgers" would not
refer to non-existant relatives or events?  
  
>> >Why is that so difficult to believe? The SS (and the Nazis in general) had
>> >a vested interest in keeping the general populace calm. These letters were
>> >an attempt to do so.
>> 
>>         Why would you not realize the problems that I have pointed out? 
>Why do
>> you insist upon believing a story that is patently false?  

>Because it's not patently false. I have evidence that it is true: the
>letters. You have NO evidence that it is false, except of course,
>"Because! I! Say! So!"

>Why are YOU so determined to insist it is false, even when faced with the truth?

	How were the letters forged?  
 
>>         If it was the result of a mass round up of Jews, who were the family
>> members receiving the letters?  If they were immediately gassed who had
>> all the information to continue these forgeries for months to years?  

>Oh, Mr. Giwer. You know NOTHING of Europe, do you? Do you think Germany
>was a backward country? You must, since you don't believe in the most
>minimal record-keeping.
 
>Let me try and explain it in modern terms: When I moved to the
>Netherlands, I had to register at the local town hall. I had to give my
>name, local address, RELIGION, next of kin, addresses of relatives, etc.
>EVERYONE who lives in a given town MUST register with the local
>authorities. IT IS THE LAW. And it is the SAME LAW that was in effect
>during the war. In Holland. In Germany. In MOST European countries, I
>believe.

	And of course handwriting samples, the personal names you called family
members, the names of friends, significant family events, personal
preferences, all the host of things that would make up a personal
letter.  

	And then of course we need to find these records missing from where they
were filled out and found  where the "forgers" would have access to
them.  

	We would also find a small army of people who would tell about forging
letters as what they did during the war.  

	In place of everything that is plainly needed to accomplish all of this
letter writing we find only reiteration that it really and truly did
happen.  
 
>Second, letters sent to family within the sphere of Nazi control did NOT
>need to be sent "for months to years." They only needed to be sent until
>the other family members were rounded up themselves. Use a little common
>sense, Mr. Giwer, if you are at all capable of doing so.
 
>Ah, I ask too much.

	But there are stories of such letters being sent for months to years.
There is a complimentary story 




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:29:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: When I said it
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

>>        When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>wrong.   
>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
>>        I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  

>I fail to see why. 

>I have asked before and I'll ask again (please note, these are not 
>rhetorical questions and I would welcome the views of any readers) :-

>A.
>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute 
>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?

	They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.  

>B.
>Would it matter if the Nuremberg defendants were tried on the basis of 
>ex post facto laws ? If so, why ?

	It would have the same effect if next year it were made a capitol
offense to post under the name Angus McClellan and you were executed for
doing so in 1996.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:30:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rcf60$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qsqki$98f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4quuhj$q9h@atlas.uniserve.com> <4qv45n$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47936 alt.censorship:87340 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:105 alt.usenet.kooks:26309

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer has consistently repeated the lie that Nizkor censors things.
>> >What things we censor, he has been pretty vague about.

>Case in point is Giwer's catch-me-if-you-can reply:

>> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>> mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>> Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>> and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.
>> 
>> Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>> this?  All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>> time you folks are unable to find those mentions.

>Mr. Giwer, please post the names and email address of, say, three of
>these "at least a dozen people."  I will contact them and have them
>explain to me where they think they saw these mentions of Hoess' trials.
>I think that no one knows the layout of Nizkor better than Ken McVay and
>myself;  if I cannot clear this up, I will ask Mr. McVay and we will
>figure out what is going on.

>My prediction of what is going on:  Giwer is flat-out lying, as he has
>done many times in the past

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>and as he will continue to do in the future.  Giwer is claiming that
>Nizkor "censors" by editing its own files (!) -- he hopes that he can
>make this charge stick, and thus obscure the fact that he is a net
>abuser himself. Giwer will fail to provide even a single name of someone
>who can confirm what he's saying.  Giwer will fail to provide the URLs
>himself.  Giwer will hope this whole matter is forgotten, but meanwhile,
>he will continue to claim that Nizkor and "holohuggers" are censors.

>Posted;  not emailed, because this net abuser Cc'd my root last time I
>dared to send him email.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47940 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Studies XVI:  Operation Reinhard (4/11)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:05:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4rch78$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ravfn$j00@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  8:08:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs16.04
>Last-modified: 1993/03/27 
>XRef: yad_vashem index

>                       YAD VASHEM STUDIES
>                              XVI
>                     Edited by Aharon Weiss

>                          YAD VASHEM
>           MARTYR'S AND HEROES' REMEMBRANCE AUTHORITY
>                        JERUSALEM 1984

>                    "Operation Reinhard": 
>       Extermination Camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka

>                         Yitzhak Arad 

>        The Construction of the Sobibor Extermination Camp 

	And here we have the same old rather incomprensible story told in
greater detail.  This is a specialized camp and a major cash outlay no
matter how you look at it.  

	In addition to the three buildings described below there were two other
building complexes including complete living and messing quarters for
the staff and their servants.  

	This place was designed from start to finish solely for the efficient
gassing of people.  Lessons were learned from Belzec camp layout and
gassings that were incorporated into this one.  There is even what
appears to be a small train-like operation to move the bodies.  This was
the farthest thing you can imagine from a makeshift operation.  

	In the midst of this new construction project ... 

>   The first gas chambers in Sobibor were housed in a strong brick
>   building with concrete foundations, in the northeastern part of the
>   camp.  Inside were three gas chambers; each measured 4 x 4 m.  and
>   could hold 150-200 people at a time.  Each chamber had a separate
>   entrance door leading off from a platform on the long side of the
>   terrain.  Opposite the entrance was another door through which the
>   corpses were removed.  As in Belzec, the exhaust fumes were conducted
>   through pipes from a nearby shed into the gas chambers.

>   Upon completion of the construction work, extermination tests were
>   conducted in mid-April 1942.  Wirth came to Sobibor in order to
>   follow the experiments.  He was accompanied by a chemist whose
>   pseudonym was Dr.  Blaurock (or Blaubacke).  SS-Unterscharfu"hrer
>   Erich Fuchs, who served in Belzec, described the preparations for the
>   first gassing trials: On Wirth's instructions I travel led by truck
>   to Lvov and collected a gassing engine there, which I transported to
>   Sobibor.  In Sobibor...  [we] unloaded the engine.  It was a heavy
>   Russian gasoline engine [probably a tank or train engine] with at
>   least 200 h.p.  [V-enginel 8 cylinders, water cooled].  We stood the
>   engine on a concrete base and connected the exhaust to the pipe
>   conduit.  Then I tried out the engine.  To begin with, it did not
>   function.  I managed to repair the ignition and the ventils so that
>   the motor finally started.  

	... we have a broken down Russian engine at the heart of the entire
operation.  

	What is wrong with this picture?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47952 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 05:02:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4rcv30$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r5snv$180@news1.io.org> <4r99kd$8ks@access5.digex.net> <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org> <4rc2hm$quk@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 



kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>>Michael P. Stein wrote:

>>>     Well, while Mr. Giwer is waiting for Alec to get unbusy, perhaps he would
>>> like to occupy himself with a computation of the number of calories required
>>> to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse.  Or perhaps he will point

>>Inconsequential. You challenge Matt on something that he will ignore.

>Precisely Mr. Stein's point, I would think. The longer troll
>ignores the issue, the more obvious it will become - with
>regard to the public record - that the troll is either
>unwilling or unable to address issues of substance -
>particularly issues of substance that he, himself has
>previously raised and then avoided, when things got too sticky
>for him.

>This will, in the long run, prove damaging to whatever shred
>of credibility remains to the fellow. It matters not one whit
>whether or not he answers - it matters only that he was asked.
>It is the public record which counts, and only the public record.
>It is, after all, the public who will determine the merit, or
>lack of same, of any participant here.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | Shofar FTP Archives
>-----------------------| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network      | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 05:03:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4rcv5e$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) writes:
>>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>
>>>        When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>wrong.   
>>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
>>>        I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  
>>
>>I fail to see why. 

>I'd add to your list of questions:

>C. What is on pages 189 and 191?

>D. Did either Douglas or Kennedy ever deny that the Holocaust happened?

>E. Is the GiwerTroll ever going to stop spamming?

>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47954 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!tahiti.netreach.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:26:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4r79le$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qo5dn$pvn@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:


>>	What a juvenile.  When you learn something get back to me.  


>>	What people have to realize is that we are faced with posts like this.
>>They seem to believe that there was no history before they were born and
>>that landfills were always the way things were done.

>>	No matter how stupid that is, incineration was the preferred method up
>>until the EPA got the power to ban it.  There were no landfills prior to
>>then.  Incineration is cheaper.  (speaking of bodies ...)  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                     
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47955 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:15:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4rcsat$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r5snv$180@news1.io.org> <4r7e3a$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r9sa2$2578@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4rbqi4$p35@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4r9sa2$2578@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:

>>Let's see.  Giwer-bot is reduced to reproducing denier spam fed to him
>>by....well *we* know, don't we Matty-bot?  He is reduced to dodging articles
>>and simply posting his sig-bot.  He is obeying orders.  He is copying.  He
>>is being led around by the nose.  Why, the Giwer-bot is almost toast.

>The most interesting questions regarding the Giwer-bot, of course, are
>these: "Who is behind the effort, and do they represent specific 
>organizations?"

>In due course, I suspect we will come to discover the answer
>to both of those questions.

>In the meantime, Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller 
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | Shofar FTP Archives
>-----------------------| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network      | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 10:05:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 03:13:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rconp$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9p1k$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) wrote:
>> > 
>> >Though you don't permit others to put you with Bradley Smith, Ernst Zundel
>> >&tc.  Not a substantial double standard, but a double standard nonetheless.
>> 
>> 	I have never met them.  I do not particularly remember having read
>> anything that any of them may have written.  I have certainly not
>> formulated any of my ideas based upon anything they have written.  
>> 
>> 	So why should I be connected with them?  

>I have never met Marduk. Jamie McCarthy has never met Marduk.  Danny 
>Mittleman has never met Marduk.  Keith Morrison has never met Marduk.  

	How do you know?  

>(Add names as appropriate; these are just a few I know of...)
>Nor have we encouraged or applauded Marduk.  Yet, because Marduk sent 
>your son a rude e-mail message, and because one or two people said, "big 
>deal!", you continue to claim that "holohuggers" as a class, and Mssrs 
>Mittleman and McCarthy in particular, have harassed (and encouraged 
>harrassment of) your family.  Why should we be connected with Marduk?

	Why not?  

>> >otherwise, what point would there be in
>> >degrading people with `hologhugger'?
>> 
>> 	I am open to the use of another name.  What would you suggest?  

>While I have some qualms about the connotations of Ehrlich's 
>"conventionalist" coinage, it would be less derisive and disrespectful.
>"Anti-revisionist" would be another possibility; although both terms 
>assume a position of intellectual integrity for Holocaust denial (a 
>position which is easily demonstrated to be fallacious), both terms would 
>be acceptible to me.  "Anti-revisionist" also seems a fair descriptor of 
>people here who accept the established history of the Holocaust, since 
>they are for the most part engaging in the discussion with the express 
>goal of showing Holocaust denial to be a distortion of historical reality.

>So take your pick: "anti-revisionist" or "conventionalist" would both be 
>acceptable replacements for "holohugger."

	Those do not have a ring to them.  	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 10:06:01 PDT 1996
Article: 47975 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:32:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
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References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ragj3$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4ragj3$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> 
>>         In keeping with your analogy of sublimating grief, even at that level,
>> given a 75 year average life span, at least 2/3s of the people
>> sublimating in public were not even born until after 1945.  It is not
>> clear why there is any grief to sublimate for them.  
>>  

>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>I was born after 1945. 12 years after, to be precise. (Birth certificate
>can be produced if you need evidence.)
> 
>My mother (deceased last year) was born in Poland. She, her father,
>mother, and brother emigrated to Canada in the 1920s. (In case you're
>wondering how they survived.) One aunt and one uncle followed a bit later.
>Everyone else was "disappeared."
> 
>The fact that I was born after the end of the war does not mean I do not
>mourn those relatives and landsmen I never met. 
> 
>Your callousness is only matched by your ignorance.

	Normal people do not mourn even their own deceased parents for years.  

	You appear to have succomb to some kind of cultural admonishmion to do
so.  

	If in fact you are not twisting the meaning of mourning, your behavior
is very abnormal.  You are the kind of person I have talked about.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 10:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47980 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!tomato.dussco.com!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:08:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4rc3bg$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r9n2f$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 

>> >He who asserts must prove.
>> 
>>         That never appears to apply to your favorite gas chambers.  Why start
>> now?  


>Mr. Giwer is once again being provocative without reason or meaning. I
>have *never* discussed gas chambers with Mr. Giwer, yet he drags this into
>a discussion regarding the JDL because he cannot intelligently debate this
>subject.
> 
>"He who asserts must prove" is a valid, reasonable request. Mr. Giwer is
>obviously incapable of reasonable debate, since he is without reason.
> 
>Oh, before I forget:
> 
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

> 
>Sara

>-- 
>"A perfect writer would make words sing, dance, kiss, do the male and female act, bear children, weep, bleed, rage, steal, stab, fire cannon, steer ships, sack cities, charge with cavalry or infantry, or do any thing, that man or woman or the natural powers can do."
>     Walt Whitman
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 10:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 47983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:19:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  6:22:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >Giwer doesn't have to know anything about National Socialism in order to
>: >pronounce upon it, just as he doesn't have to know anything about history,
>: >law, chemistry or magnetic recording technology in order to give the
>: >definitive accounts of them.  He is Giwer.  Resistance is futile.
>: 
>: 	And you, on the other hand, are an expert in all such matters so that
>: you can judge.  Or am I mistaken in the position you are taking?  

>Yes, you are mistaken.  I know a great deal about history, so I often
>comment upon it.  I also have access to a very good reference library,
>so I'm often able to look up specific facts and use them to refute 
>foolish assertions--such as the one that magnetic tape wasn't invented
>until the 50s.  I know very little about chemistry and only a middling
>amount about the intricacies of the law, so I rarely have anything to 
>say about them; I do, however, know a little something about the structure
>of argument, about logic, and about the tactics used by the foolish to
>make themselves appear wise to other fools--and that's what I generally
>catch you out on, Matt.

	You should point them out some time so everyone will know that you are
actually finding what you claim you are finding.  I hope you will not
mind my considering it an empty claim until then.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 10:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 47984 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:23:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4rcb76$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  6:26:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>ANGUS MCLELLAN wrote:
>> 
>> How do we know that ? Grynspan (always assuming he/she/it is a real
>> person and not a construct) could be sending you half a dozen emails a
>> day for all I know (or care).

>None - to him. Few to others. I've got other things on my mind. Why must
>Matt have any priority?

	To keep the record straight as these folks will jump on anything, there
was one email to your first post when I drew a blank on neuromancer.  If
I remember correctly, your response was something like five words
regarding my memory.  
 
>> Giwer's "secret techniques" ? That'll be lying, ignoring questions,
>> misquoting postings, cut-and-paste extraordinaire and so on. Golly gosh.

>No secret techniques. He has his own agenda, but that's obvious - if you
>know what really drives him.

	Again please demonstrate rather than talking about it.  It does get
annoying.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 15:06:20 PDT 1996
Article: 48022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 02:12:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rcl4l$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31d924ea.67697726@news.zilker.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  9:15:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:


>>Time out!  *Holohugger* isn't degrading.  It's teasing.  Although I would
>>tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
>>_sensitive_.  But you know what?  On this board, the more sensitive you
>>are, the easier it is to get your head cut off.  It is called, I believe,
>>the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.

>No, it is rather insultingly stupid. Not one of of us that I know of
>takes great joy in having to deal with those who would deny the
>Holocaust. In order to do this one has to deal with the poisons of
>reading about those events and those horrors. One must spend enormous
>amounts of time refuting the most trivial lie. Lies are cheap. I also
>find it fascinating that the Jewish aspect of it gets the most comment
>while the other 6 million do not get so much. The reason for this is
>that the Jews seem to be the agenda of the deniers. I find the whole
>racial aspect of the Nazis reprehensible. I find the Spenserian
>philosophy that was used flawed to the extreme. It would be nice NOT
>to have to do this. Think if none of us did.

	You are certainly a newcomer to this.  I went through the exercise of
pointing out the "jews only" holocaust attitude promoted by Jews.  I
backed this up with extensive crossposts from the primary holocaust web
sites.  Among them were the SWC, the USHMM and of course our favorite,
Nizkor.  You clearly have it backwards.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 16:42:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48025 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:07:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4regkm$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:11:18 PM PDT 1996
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gtaylor@msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:

>  wrote:
>>>Are you now claiming that you believe Anne Frank's diary to be a hoax?  
>>>In the past, I believe you had stated that you didn't know.  Please 
>>>clarify your position on the authenticity of the _Diary_; I would also 
>>>like to know why you think it's a hoax (if you do).
>>
>>	I said exactly what I said.  That there was a plagarism settlement.  
>>	What would be of interest is finding the book the plagarism was claimed
>>       to  be from and which parts were involved.  

>I expect that the reason for the question [which you didn't adress, to my
>*shock and surprise*] was that we'd all be very interested to know about
>this settlement. Are those the chemicals talking, 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 




or can you actually
>come up with something resembling verifiable information? 

>I'll be very surprised to discover that you confabulated this one, too....


>-- 
>The arts are the field on which we place our own dreams, thoughts, and desires
>alongside those of others, so that solitudes can meet, to their joy sometimes,
>or to their surprise, and sometimes to their disgust.(R. Hughes) Gregory Taylor
>WORT-FM 89.9 Madison, Wisconsin http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/RTQE.html




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 16:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:08:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4regld$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <29JUN199618380247@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <30JUN199607365001@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <30JUN199612551408@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4rcohe$1bfq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:11:41 PM PDT 1996
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <30JUN199612551408@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) said:

>[much deleted--the attributions were screwed up to the point that I was
>saying things that Mr. Ehrlich said]

>>    This doesn't have to do with his son; it was Marduk harassment
>>    pertaining to his wives.  Looks like both Jeremy and I called it
>>    "juvenile and tasteless."  Looks like I did little to encourage the
>>    behavior here.  Looks like Giwer - again - owes me an apology.  I
>>    suspect, however, instead of an apology I will get killfile insults
>>and
>>    a repost from Profiles in Courage.  That Giwer, what a guy.

>I have said this ten times now and I will say it again.  And I will note
>that Giwer *still* has not denied it, because he knows I am right and he
>knows how I know.  The alleged Giwer family persecution did not happen--it
>was a Giwer invention, and a pretty feeble one at that.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                            
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 16:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48029 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 02:49:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4rcnb2$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qdi3c$sa3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4qg67h$qu9@news.enter.net> <31CD8162.34CA@unb.ca> <4qm8u1$9c6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qpak4$25qg@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qpm1b$6uc@atlas.uniserve.com> <4qq1m8$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  9:53:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article ,
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> In article <4qq1m8$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >         Wanna lick my steps, fatbroad?
>> > 
>> 
>>  
>> A classic example of Mr. Giwer's debating technique. And a delightful
>> example of his famous 163 IQ.


>Indeed. The G*wer-Troll seems to think that gutters[nipes] have steps!
>Such ignorance is understandable as the G*wer-Trol _also_ thought the
>"ramp" at Birkenau had steps as well....

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 18:48:48 PDT 1996
Article: 48046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:48:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4rccmg$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  6:51:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>Marty Kelley  writes:
>>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly 
>>identified, documented sources to support your claims.  

>	Ooooo!!! That is asking a lot of Giwer!

>>2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging 
>>in insults against others.  

>	I'm afraid I have to plead guilty to insulting deniers myself.

	Which keeps it all going does not it?  

>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>           Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
>                    George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
>                       _The Rejected Statement_




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 18:48:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:50:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4rccq6$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  6:53:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes about Matt Giwer:
>>The figures speak for themselves.

>	Judging by his replies to this thread, the figures will increase.
>Now I can think of three reasons why he does this:

>	1. He wants to render the newsgroup useless. (My bet.)

>	2. He doesn't know how to use his posting software. (Unlikely, as he
>has shown ability to use it before.

>	3. It it the only thing he can do that brings him any form of pleasure
>after severely spraining his wrists whilst playing the skin flute.

>	He has too much time on his hands, but that was obvious.

>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>           Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
>                    George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
>                       _The Rejected Statement_

	See if you can find the personal insult in what you posted.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 18:48:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists...
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 17:57:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4recgv$t4l@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4qc18t$gh2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31c991e2.567155@news.pacificnet.net> <4qcq70$4uk@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4r1c76$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>   <4rcohk$1bfs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57627 alt.revisionism:48053

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article ,
>Marty Kelley  said:


>>The only proof of "harassment" I recall seeing posted by you here was one
>>rude e-mail message from "Marduk" to your son. You never posted any other
>> evidence that your son had received rude e-mail from any other regular
>>posters in this group.  Please provide concrete evidence that any other
>>participants have ever harrassed your family in any way, or withdraw your
>> unsubstantiated claim.

>I would add to this that Giwer never posted one iota of proof that the
>alleged e-mail from Marduk was *really* from Marduk.  I would also add that
>that happened at about the time he was arguing with Mike Stein that he could
>forge an e-mail and no one would be the wiser.  I would further add that,
>not long after this, he posted an alleged post from Marduk that was so
>obviously a forgery, that even *I* could smell it out.

>The only harassment of Giwer's family was carried out by Giwer himself.

>>As several other posters have noted, a number of anti-revisionist
>>participants condemned Marduk's actions at the time you re-posted the
>>rude e-mail to your son.

>Yes, several of them fell for the troll.



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                                  
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 18:48:50 PDT 1996
Article: 48056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:07:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <4rer5t$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ra4d2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rcoi7$1pg4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03  3:11:09 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4ra4d2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>>>> 	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>>>> 
>>>> 	Do you folks really want to continue this?  

>The Giwer-bot is scared now, big time, exactly as I predicted and willed. 
>He is almost gone.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

>>>May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer?  How about this: 

>>>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly 
>>>identified, documented sources to support your claims.  

>>	That depends upon whether or not the "documentation game" is going to be
>>played.  For example, "Hilberg wrote" does not count nor does "a
>>pharmacist concluded."    

>How about playing the "post what the anonymous feeders give you" game that
>the Giwer-bot is now playing?  He is reduced to this little game that would
>be exciting to a six-year old, but not to anyone remotely approaching
>adulthood.  What a pathetic little pawn he has become.  

>Are they paying the Giwer-bot?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



>>>2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging 
>>>in insults against others.  

>>	I will not ignore it.  I would have thought that is clear by now.  

>Very clear, since the Giwer-bot's only purpose here is to troll and start
>fights and insulting people is a sure-fired way to do it.

>>>Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the 
>>>level of discourse in this group.  

>>	All by my self?  

>It would be a start, since the Giwer-bot lowered the level of discourse all
>by himself.

>And now the mighty Giwer, magnificent in his "victory", is reduced to
>threatening to spam the group anytime anyone dares disagree with any of his
>"revisionist" cobblers and cutters, doers and doubters.  What a pathetic
>creature, completely and utterly decimated, left with nothing but games
>played by school children.

>The bot lost, like they always do, and soon he will go the way of the dodo
>bird, the Gannon-goof and Craven Raven.  Bye-bye Mattie-bot.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>              






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 19:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48069 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revising the data, save the total
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:02:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4regb6$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ql5bs$mj5@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4r5215$gpe@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4r59vl$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4rcvej$etk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 



>: 	To hell with a 16 years after the fact purging of IMT nonsense.  The
>: number was 6M at the time and 6M it remains from 1945 regardless of the
>: juggling.

>: 	I can not change that and neither can you.  

>Except, of course, that Hilberg (whom I cited, and whose book I suggested
>you read) does not cite a number of 6 million.  In any case, you have
>with your usual expertise, changed the issue once your original claim
>was shown to be in error.  You claimed that the number of deaths for
>each extermination camp was "revised downward."  I have pointed out
>that no historian ever took the higher numbers seriously -- and you
>yourself gave the reason why.

>In any case, were you to read Hilberg's book (something that you haven't
>and probably can't do), you would find out that he began his research
>in 1947.

>Furthermore, you still haven't given your answer to the question of where
>the original 6 million figure came from, and how it was determined.

>BTW, you can probably guess into which of the four categories of people
>mentioned in my .sig file you fit.

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"It is absurd to divide people into good and bad.  People are either
>charming or tedious."




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 19:42:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48071 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:04:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4regei$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31cffa2b.5860058@news.pacificnet.net> <31d3df98.414189@news.pacificnet.net>  <4r41gd$l3h@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4r76sc$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4r9n2f$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4rc3bg$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4rc3bg$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 

>> >"He who asserts must prove" is a valid, reasonable request. Mr. Giwer is
>> >obviously incapable of reasonable debate, since he is without reason.
>> > 


>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: Those Polish spies again
>> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT
>> 
>>         Anyone want to explain this one?  
>> 
>> " It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>> people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>> then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>> way; there they were killed. "
>> 
>> IMT VII - p.576-577. 
> 
>In other words, Mr. Giwer refuses to accept that he must prove his own
>assertions. 
> 

	Editting out the insult

Oh, before I forget:
 
Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only

	does not change the nature of the response.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 19:42:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48074 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:51:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4rej7n$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31d924ea.67697726@news.zilker.net> <4rcl4l$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <2JUL199621585062@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4rcl4l$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 
>>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>>Time out!  *Holohugger* isn't degrading.  It's teasing.  Although I would
>>>>tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
>>>>_sensitive_.  But you know what?  On this board, the more sensitive you
>>>>are, the easier it is to get your head cut off.  It is called, I believe,
>>>>the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.
>> 
>>>No, it is rather insultingly stupid. Not one of of us that I know of
>>>takes great joy in having to deal with those who would deny the
>>>Holocaust. In order to do this one has to deal with the poisons of
>>>reading about those events and those horrors. One must spend enormous
>>>amounts of time refuting the most trivial lie. Lies are cheap. I also
>>>find it fascinating that the Jewish aspect of it gets the most comment
>>>while the other 6 million do not get so much. The reason for this is
>>>that the Jews seem to be the agenda of the deniers. I find the whole
>>>racial aspect of the Nazis reprehensible. I find the Spenserian
>>>philosophy that was used flawed to the extreme. It would be nice NOT
>>>to have to do this. Think if none of us did.
>> 
>>	You are certainly a newcomer to this.  I went through the exercise of
>>pointing out the "jews only" holocaust attitude promoted by Jews.  I
>>backed this up with extensive crossposts from the primary holocaust web
>>sites.  Among them were the SWC, the USHMM and of course our favorite,
>>Nizkor.  You clearly have it backwards.  

>    Actually, when Giwer first made these assertions I posted excepts from
>    both the USHMM home page and the Nizkor home page which clearly showed
>    them both to primarily note there were circa 12,000,000 victims of the
>    Holocaust - both Jewish and non-Jewish (take a look at these pages for
>    confirmation.)

>    Giwer may be right about SWC and if he is, they ought to adjust their
>    page.

>    However, the assertion Giwer makes above runs counter to the historical
>    reality of this newsgroup.

	Glossary of the Holocaust, SWC

HOLOCAUST 
     The destruction of some 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their
followers in Europe
     between the years 1933-1945. Other individuals and groups were
persecuted and
     suffered grievously during this period, but only the Jews were
marked for complete and
     utter annihilation. The term "Holocaust" - literally meaning "a
completely burned sacrifice"
     - tends to suggest a sacrificial connotation to what occurred. The
word Shoah, originally
     a Biblical term meaning widespread disaster, is the modern Hebrew
equivalent. 





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 21:00:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48082 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:56:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qv45n$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4re5ou$och@access5.digex.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48082 alt.censorship:87400

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>>	There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>>Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>>and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.

>    That is a very bizarre definition of censored.  Nizkor does not contain
>all material related to the Holocaust and makes no claim that it does.  There
>are financial, logistical and legal problems with doing that.
>Material cannot be put on Nizkor until someone has read it.

>    Except in the psychological definition, censorship carries the
>connotation of a conscious intent to conceal information.  And even on the
>psychological definition, there has to be some opportunity for awareness
>before the censorship can truly be said to exist.

>    Hilberg is unfamiliar with many books about the Holocaust just as I am
>confident that Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with books about physics - _nobody_
>has the time to read everything that is published on a topic.  Ken McVay is
>certainly no exception, nor am I.

>    If a library is unaware of a book, it is not censoring the book by not
>carrying it.  If it would like to buy it but ran out of funds before it could
>be purchased, that is not censorship either by any reasonable use of the
>word.

>    Why is Altavista unable to find the information on a revisionist site? 
>Would Mr. Giwer agree that Zundel's site and Bradley Smith's site and Greg
>Raven's site are also censored, then?  One would certainly think they would
>play the information up for all it's worth - yet they don't seem to have it
>either, not if "Rudenko" should yield a match.


>>	Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>>this?  All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>>time you folks are unable to find those mentions.

>This is what Mr. Giwer wrote originally:

>

>        You really should search off of the "guess the filename"
>possibilities to discover that General Rudenko lost the case
>against the infamous Rudolph Hoess on charges of gassing for lack
>of evidence of gassing from the people who were there at the
>time.
> 
>        You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
>Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
>investigator of war crimes.  

>

>(Source:
>    http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1879190&server=dnserver.dbapr)
> 
>    The original wording of the claim certainly conveyed the impression he
>had read the original information on Nizkor.  

	That is your assumption.  

	The following is a riddle.  

	I did not originally read it there but I know it is there.  How do I
know?  

If he means that there is a
>book cited by Nizkor which contains the information, but the material quoted
>from the book which appears on Nizkor does not include that information, that
>is not the meaning of "you will find the supporting evidence ... on the
>Nizkor site."  He should have said, "You will find a reference to the
>supporting evidence...."  Mr. Giwer has previously reminded us that the name
>of the song is different from what the name of the song is called. 

>    But even in that case he has presented no evidence that the information
>was seen and consciously omitted.  "Nizkor is incomplete" is a statement for
>which there is ample evidence, starting with the "under construction -
>permanently!" part of Ken McVay's .sig.  Censored is another matter.

>    I can make a much better case that the revisionists have provided
>censored material - e.g., citations of Arno Mayer, Gitta Sereny, Pressac, and
>Himmler in ways that seriously distort the meaning of their words and might
>deceive a naive reader into thinking that these people advocated a position
>which they did not in fact advocate by any honest reading of their full
>words.

>    In any event, all we have from Mr. Giwer is still unsupported assertion -
>he has given no reference.  

	The URLs have been posted here many times.  

	That is a riddle without a question.  

In serious debate, unsupported assertion is
>worthless.  The reader will note that per my usual habit, I gave a DejaNews
>URL to allow verification of the accuracy of my quote of Mr. Giwer's words.
>Mr. Giwer is not in the habit of providing references to allow someone to
>verify his assertions without exhaustive search.  Is Mr. Giwer interested in
>serious debate or isn't he?  This "I'm right but I'm not going to tell you
>how I know" game doesn't look like it to me.

>    It should be noted that Mr. Giwer appears to have misread text on
>multiple occasions.  For that reason alone it would be irresponsible to
>accept what he says here as true without independent confirmation.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 21:31:05 PDT 1996
Article: 48086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:08:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <4rer7k$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r8r6h$p9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rapru$9he@atlas.uniserve.com> <4rcoij$mog@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03  3:12:04 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4rapru$9he@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>>
>>In <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>>>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>>>>I think this would be a valuable idea (no irony intended), because then
>you would
>>>>actually present _texts_ and not only cut-and-paste quotations of other
>people's posts.
>>>>I prefer having something to base a reply on, as you probably know.

>>>	Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated Keren
>>>spams would it not?  

>>Oh, I must have dropped in to the wrong topic.  I thought the header read
>>"a new approach"  

>>But I see it is still "business as usual" for Mr. Giwer.  I seem to recall
>>that he actually had demonstrated his ability to post without any
>>unwarranted childish outbursts and gratuitous insults etc.  Then again, I
>>did see a very informative post from Mr. Graves a few hours ago.  So
>>perhaps that was the other Mr. Giwer.

>The Giwer-bot is on the way out.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 22:42:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:32:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4rei41$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r0d05$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4r3mrj$7tu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r97s9$8ht@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4r9pk3$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rdb51$hrq@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 




>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >[Giwer] litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to 
>: >calling several of the female regulars on a.r. "fat broad".

>: Only Ostrov.  And of course did not read any of here posts about me to
>: which that was a response.  Too busy I guess.  

>How clever!  Sara Schwartz isn't "fat broad" but "fatbroad", eh?  If I 
>didn't know better, I'd say you were engaging in a level of hairsplitting
>that is, shall we say, Talmudic?


>> Subject:      Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
>> From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>> Message-Id:   <4nj9se$6ai@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
>> 
>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4n4841$ct0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>>>> Since I posted this, all of references to her (REGEX search under
>>>> anne) result in an error message, that the files do not exist.
>> 
>> >A JOOOOISH plot perhaps? Try looking under Anne Frank, idiot.
>> 
>>         Read the instructions and learn how regex works, fatbroad.


>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
> "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 22:42:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48100 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:39:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4reifm$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> 
>>         Normal people do not mourn even their own deceased parents for years.

>I am *so* glad we have Mr. Giwer to tell us what "normal" people do. 
>  
>> 
>>         You appear to have succomb to some kind of cultural admonishmion to do
>> so.  
> 
>Giwerese. I don't know what "to have succomb" means, nor do i know what
>the word "admonishmion" is. I suspect (Ken, help?) it's some
>bastardization of the Yiddish word "mish-mosh," meaning a conglomeration.
> 
>If, in fact, he means the word "admonision," what is this "cultural
>admonision" forcing me to mourn deceased relatives?

	When all else fails, attack the typos.  

	BTW:  I have it on the best authority that Yiddish died with the
holocaust.  Please stop referring to it.  
 
>>         If in fact you are not twisting the meaning of mourning, your behavior
>> is very abnormal.  You are the kind of person I have talked about.  
> 
>Gee, Mr. Giwer. Thanks for identifying "abnormal" for me. I've always wondered.
>Of course, there's always the slight possibility that you *could* be wrong.

	Not in this case.  Mourning a dead husband for years is abnormal.
Mourning people you have never met is even stranger.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul  3 22:42:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48106 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:49:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48106 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57659

system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4r53qh$kl1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com quotes:
>>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>[Ken's well done satire deleted]
>>
>>>>========
>>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>>>
>>>>	When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.  
>>
>>>When you said what?  The quote that Ken et al were making fun of required
>>>no legal expertise and as far as I could see had nothing to do with the 
>>>below quote.
>>
>>	When I said the Nuremberg trials were kangaroo courts that did not pass
>>muster in any civilized country.  What did you think I was talking
>>about?  

>Well, gosh and golly, I am a newbie (only having been on USENET for
>4 or 5 years) and I thought that followups were supposed to have some
>relevence to what they were "following up".

	Is that all?  

>>>>"the crime for which the Nazis were tried [...]
>>>>Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their guilt [...]
>>>>[Douglas argues that the Nurenburg trials had serious flaws
>>>> since nobody had bothered to make genocide a capital punishment
>>>> before the fact]
>>>>
>>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
>>
>>>>	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  
>>
>>>In other words you think that Goering et al were guilty as hell
>>>even though there was little to no legal justification for the 
>>>Nurenburg trials and punishments.

>>[Nazi's who murdered 8-10* million people because of their religion
>> or ethnic group weren't treated in perfect accord with American or UK
>> jurisprudence. * I am generously assuming the 2 million were killed
>> because of demonstrated actions against the Reich]

>>	Do you have a problem with those statements?  If so, what?  

>no, my reply is "tough shit".  When you step _way_ outside civilized
>behaviour and furthermore are stupid enough to involve other countries
>(thus losing the "This is an internal affair" defense) you should expect
>to get smacked down so you should take your punishment, yea, even to death, 
>like a mensch.  And your apologists shouldn't whine about it either.

	Then you take them out back and shoot them.  You do not pretend they
were given a fair trial or treated to anything any civilized country
would consider justice.  

	However, it is the contention of the holohuggers that they were in fact
given a fair trial.  There is no whining about anything.  There is
merely correcting the false statements by the holohuggers.  

>>Therefore, they are legally innocent.  

>Since they have not yet had those convictions overturned, no they are not.
> Therefore they are the moral equivalent of legally innocent while
>being morally guilty.

	Would you care to direct someone to the appeals process for the courts
that made the convictions?  As there is none, we are left with judging
the court itself.  Which of course is another count against there having
been justice, the lack of an appeals process.  

>>	Next question.  

>Do you agree that this is a perfect example of revisionists taking what
>they agree with (There were legal problems with the Nurenburg trials)
>while ignoring what they don't (The Nazis were guilty and deserved
>severe punishment)?

	One does not sully the concept of justice just to make oneself feel less
like a murderer.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48111 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!terra.net!news.bitstream.com!tristram.edc.org!news3.near.net!paperboy.wellfleet.com!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:09:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <2JUL199606581251@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4rcoid$1pga@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <2JUL199606581251@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) said:

>>
>>In article <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>writes... >jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning
>>>>> the holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>>> 
>>>>I see -- so your spam will increase n-fold.  Thanks for warning us.
>>> 
>>>	I told you what would happen BEFORE I started it.  You were forewarned.
>>>Perhaps you have a newsfeed problem...  

>Pretty pathetic to see Giwer reduced to this juvenile level.  How far the
>mighty have fallen.  };->

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

>>> 
>>>>> Do you folks really want to continue this?
>>> 
>>>>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?
>>> 
>>>	Lots of things.  Shut up McFly for one thing.  

>Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it?  Pretty clear admission that I have
>the Giwer-bot by the ass.  He is reduced to this feeble attempt to regain
>control--try and get the other posters here to shut *me* up.  He forgets. 
>*I* control him, not the other way around.  Why should I "shut up", when I
>will be the demise of the Giwer-bot?  Not now folks.  He had his chance and
>he blew it.  He can either killfile me, or he can--to put it a bit
>inelegantly--fuck off.  Maybe I'll follow him, maybe I won't.  *I* will
>decide.  One thing for sure; Giwer-bot can spam until the cows come home. 
>He will never ruin this group; it's survived better than he.  If he doesn't
>like it, he can leave.  If he chooses to stay, I could also care less.  He
>has destroyed the nanoatom of credibility he had with the lurkers.  Thus, I
>have won and he has lost, as I warned him some time ago.  He can either
>"stay in Berlin" and perish like his beloved Fuehrer, or he can run away.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



>>> 
>>>	Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.

>Look who's talkin'.
>>> 
>>>	Cease ALL "troll" references.  

>Why?  When speaking of the troll-master?  Really pisses the Giwer-bot to be
>out-trolled, and in public.  Too bad.

>>> 
>>>	Good enough for openers?  

>Bye-bye Giwer-bot.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



>>> 
>>>>It's clear that you already consider an "attack" to be anything which
>>>>you do not like -- for example, a lighthearted tangential reference to
>>>>you as a "troll" is enough to set you off.  Or a pun ("Giwerdly Lion").
>>>>Or a mention of the fact that you are abusing the net.
>>> 
>>>	Precisely.  Simply stop it all.  It is that simple.  

>No it ain't.
>>> 
>>>	And that means not just what is directed towards me but everything that
>>>is directed towards everyone who happens to disagree with any past or
>>>present version of the holocaust description.  
>>> 
>>>	Is that clear enough?  
>>> 
>>>>Even a simple mention of the fact that you engage in ad hominem attacks,
>>>>Mr. Giwer, is enough to trigger your spam finger.  
>>> 
>>>	Actually it takes three fingers but only two keystrokes.  

>Makes a good drink, those three fingers.  Who wrote the macro for him?
>>> 
>>>Apparently saying
>>>>that someone else engages in ad hominem is itself ad hominem.  I guess
>>>>you're allowed to call my colleague a "simpering bitch," 
>>> 
>>>	Did I say that?  That really isn't my style.  It is too subtle.  I
>>>usually do better.  
>>> 
>>>as you did
>>>>earlier today, and I'm forbidden from even pointing that out.  That
>>>>hardly seems fair, Mr. Giwer.
>>> 
>>>	Fuck fair.  Neither was calling me a nazi and an antisemite without
>>>cause which is what started all of this.  

>Oh boo-hoo-hoo.  Poor wittle Giwer-bot.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>    




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:53 PDT 1996
Article: 48126 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:31:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Waiting time. Meeting at 11 AM and we've got a gating issue, so I'll
>take a quick stab at this one.


>> 
>>         Anyone want to explain this one?
>> 
>> " It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>> people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>> then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>> way; there they were killed. "

>Explain what?

>That a witness saw live people carted in, saw dead bodies come out and
>didn't see the cause of death? He speculates on the cause, convinces
>himself and that is written down in a book.

	What words in that statement indicates speculation to you?  

	What kind of "mass extermination" was supposed to have been going on at
Belsen in 1942 or ever for that matter?  

>You're belaboring the obvious, Matt.

>It's a given that all sorts of stories will be written up, made up, what
>have you, about any major event. This one was *VERY* major.

>It's a given that witnesses will add, subtract and multiply anything
>that they've seen if they are not trained in the act of observation.

	I also have one describing the boiler room and the push button
controlled valves for the steam at Treblinka.  It is difficult to
ascribe a lack of training in observation with such details included.  

>It's a given that if enough witnesses tell *EXACTLY* the same story,
>then that story is suspect - while divergences from a central point are
>to be expected.

>Mass execution reports were coming out of Europe while the war was still
>on. 

>Gassings were reported and representatives were begging the American
>military to bomb the chambers during the war.

	The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines cut so that
no more people could be sent there and so the food would be cut off so
those already there would starve.  

>See "Abandonment of The Jews". The reason that the Russians exposed the
>gas chambers becomes obvious if we take into account that 2 bombs would
>have put the chambers out of commission, 

	Four for Birkenau alone according to discussions in this NG but then
laser guidance was not available in those days.  

the American military said it
>was a strategically poor move and there are bombsight photos of the
>planes passing over the gas chambers on their way to other targets.

	You are the only person who has ever made such a claim.  The ones that
Nizkor carries of Birkenau show no such activity when such activity
should have been at its peak -- depending upon which "pharmacist" you
choose to believe.  

>Really, Matt, none of this is news! We've already been over that in
>other places and even here!

>Your memory is patently bad, but this is getting ridiculous. It goes
>beyond memory! 

>How can I argue with you?  It would be like fighting an unarmed man!

>Get yourself together, Matt! I don't want to shoot fish in a barrel!

	Again you make claims but they are patently contrary to what is
available to everyone here, and then you declare victory.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:54 PDT 1996
Article: 48147 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:51:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4retnr$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net> <1JUL199620463025@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rcdna$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3JUL199607155235@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03  3:54:51 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4rcdna$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>In article <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...

>>>>	In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.  
>> 
>>>    I wouldn't use terms that strong, but yes.  Well before you arrived at
>>>    alt.revisionism both Gord McFee and I posted doubts and qualms about
>>>    the propriety of the trials at Nuremburg.
>> 
>>	And your objections to the findings were?  

>    I didn't say I objected to the findings.

	How about your "doubts and qualms" then?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:55 PDT 1996
Article: 48148 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: flags banned by Olympic committee
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 21:26:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:45:33 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>(Moran and Graves snipped)
>>
>Mr. Moran sez;
>This "peace" you talk about, is this one that was voted on by the
>>people of Israel and their amen corner here in the U.S., the one where
>>the new elected Prime Minister was voted in who ran on the platform of
>>defying U.N. Resolutions, no Palestinian State, no compromise on
>>Jeruselem, no compromise on the Golan Heights, the one that caused the
>>full Arab world to meet in Cairo to discuss the intransience of Israel
>>- is this the "peace" your talking about?
>Oh, you mean the Arab summit, in which it was discussed that Israel
>had better turn over half of Jerusalem, allow a Palestinian state to
>be declared and in general agree to any two bit demand that comes from
>the mind of Arafat. Well to bad for you that, that isn't going to
>happen. Instead Arafat will have to follow the Oslo accords that he
>signed and agreed to but has yet to follow, then he will have to reign
>in terrorists that are coming from his area, and lastly he will have
>to out live his fellow thugs who are busy trying to retire him, or
>haven't you read the latest Fatah threats??
>>>Related story about a runner on the Palestinian team at
>>>http://www.usatoday.com/olympics/odxg011.htm
>>>
>>>-rich
>>> http://www.c2.org/~rich/
>>

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:55 PDT 1996
Article: 48155 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:25:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4qt9ve$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>[about the alleged harassment of Gutless Giwer]

>>>>And I have never seen you identify any of the people, besides Marduk, who
>>>>you are accusing of harrassing your family (and Marduk's "harassment"
>>>>seems to consist of one or two e-mail messages sent to your son).  Please
>>>>provide evidence that any of the other regular participants have harassed
>>>>your family, or withdraw your claim.

>>>That's because there was no harassment and no e-mail to his son.  But
>Giwer
>>>knows that.

>Note that for the seventh time, Giwer does not deny that the harassment was
>a lie on his part.

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


>>" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>>entrances to the four-story
>>house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased, the
>>same people were
>>forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>>had to be transferred to one
>>place in the courtyard. "
>>IMT VII - p.491. 

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                     
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48162 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:08:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4rer8h$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r8r6h$p9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rcoi1$p82@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r8r6h$p9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) said:

>>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>>I think this would be a valuable idea (no irony intended), because then
>>you would actually present _texts_ and not only cut-and-paste quotations
>>of other people's posts. I prefer having something to base a reply on, as
>>you probably know.

>Nele, when he says "holocaust truths", he does not mean texts; he means the
>same cut-and-paste garbage that some so-called "neutral" participants have
>been spoon-feeding him.


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48187 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:38:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4r76sc$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r41gd$l3h@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>         One of the most prominently know racists in modern times, Meier Kanahe
>> was defended by many Jews simply because he was Jewish.  He even
>> organized a terrorist organization, the JDL, without receiving public
>> condemnation for doing so or condemnation of the organization save by
>> the US Defense Department which plays by its own rules not political
>> rules.  (Morris Dees never heard of those organized terrorists.)  
>> 
>>         The closest thing to condemnation was that his statements were
>"unwise"
>> which is probably a "code word" (like final solution) for "unquestioned
>> agreement but not in public."  
> 
>Most Jews condemned Kahane's methods. (His name, by the way, was NOT Kanahe.)

	The more correct term was "distanced themselves" as has been used here.
You would certainly remember it if people had taken after Kahane and the
JDL the way they are presently taking after the church burners or as
they did after the citizen militia groups last year.  
 
	There is clearly no difference between the JDL and the church burners
and they are much, much worse than the citizen milias.  

>Please provide evidence that "many Jews" defended him. Pleae provide the
>names of those "many" Jews.

	You have tried to play this game before.  No, I will not research the
papers to show you what you should have read at the time and would not
read if I found gave you references.  	
 
>And please, please, explain why Morris Dees should be involved?

	Morris Dees makes a living identifying violent terrorist organizations,
of which the JDL is one.  Dees has never named them.  He only goes after
ones he can label as white and christian.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48188 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:43:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
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Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:

>[snip]


>>
>> >He does that, and more.  When I first began participating in this NG I
>> >approached Mr. Giwer with an honest curiosity toward his views,
>> >informing him fully about my natural bias against those unorthodox.  He
>> >responded by attacking my character, his only position being that if I
>> >did not agree with him that I was then decietful, ignorant and unworthy
>> >of his attention.
>>
>>       That of course is a lie that belies your intention in the
>> approach, dumbbroad.
>>


>Matt, I'm curious to know by what reasoning your calling me a "dumbbroad"
>is intended to disprove my statement that your only response to me has
>been by offering character attacks?

	It was intended to respond in kind to your posts.  That is my choice.
At other times I simply post discarded true truths about the holocaust
such as this one.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. "

IMT VII - p.491. 

	How I deal with the personal attacks on me by holohuggers is my choice
as you can see.  You and everyone here knows just how simple it is to
get me to stop responding, stop the personal attacks.  

	If you wish to continue, then I continue.  Appending a standard longer
true truth takes two keystrokes.  

	Want to continue?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48189 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:45:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r5d1k$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:


>> FATBOT
> 
>This from the man who complains about name-calling.
> 
>Pot. Kettle. Fat.
> 
>Sara

	Cute.  You must feel like you are an internet old timer now.  Response
to insult is insult.  You may continue if you wish.   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:59 PDT 1996
Article: 48192 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first "denier" was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:40:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:


>>  	Do you not find it a touch interesting that he wrote those "memoirs" in
>>  one month while conducting his own defense?  Do you not find it
>>  interesting that that "memoirs" were in fact his own death warrant but
>>  were not introduced by the prosecutions?  

>	Do you have some reference for this?  I have always understood that 
>Hoess wrote his "Memoirs" *after* his conviction and while he was awaiting 
>execution.

	That is about 30 days.  Rather prolific wouldn't you say?  Considering
he would be expected to be somewhat preoccupied with putting his affairs
in order, saying goodbye to his family and the like.  
  
>>  	Have you never asked why he was not accused at Nuremberg?  Can 
>you
>>  explain that?  

>	He was not a big enough fish for Nuremberg.  

	I hope this is the last time anyone makes an issue of someone not taking
2.5-3.5 million murders lightly.  By his own confessions this guy was
about as big as they come.  

Despite the popular 
>conception, the actual trial was more about the first three counts of the 
>indictment.  The actual actors who performed the murders were tried in a series of 
>trials after the main event at Nuremberg.  Many were tried in the areas in which 
>their crimes were committed.  Hoess was among them.

	And since Rudenko was the prosecutor in Poland it means there was no one
to stop him from introducing forged material.  	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 48193 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question about the Holocaust - I need an answer
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 17:57:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4rech3$t4l@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 

>: schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>: >Could you please post your evidence that Hilberg is a pharmacist?

>: 	Thank you for pointing out the minor error there.  He is a professor of
>: political science and public law who was awarded the chair in history
>: for his politically correct publications on the holocaust.

>Yes, and had you actually read his book (which you haven't and probably
>can't), you would find out that he discusses his methodology and sources.
>And you would find out that his publications on the holocaust are hardly
>"politically correct" -- for example, he took a functionalist line long
>before it was popular to do so, and his analysis of the Jewish response
>comes very close to blaming the victim for being murdered.  Which, as I
>recall, was one of the lines of argument used by our very own Prince
>Myshkin ("if each Jew had taken one gun from an SS officer. . ." -- 
>sound familiar?).

>I hope you will be as gracious in acknowledging the major error you made
>in your characterization of Hilberg as you were in acknowledging the
>"minor" one.

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards
>with very high IQs."
>					--J. Bronowski




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 07:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 48200 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first "denier" was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:44:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4rf0sj$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ral7n$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rcoi2$12r@news.enter.net> 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4rcoi2$12r@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> >  The G*wer-Troll insinuates:
>> 
>> >  Do you not find it a touch interesting that he wrote those "memoirs" in
>> >  one month while conducting his own defense?  Do you not find it
>> >  interesting that that "memoirs" were in fact his own death warrant but
>> >  were not introduced by the prosecutions?  
>> 
>> Do you have some reference for this?  I have always understood that 
>> Hoess wrote his "Memoirs" *after* his conviction and while he was awaiting 
>> execution.

>Ho"ss's memoirs were written betwen October 1946 and April 1947 while
>imprisoned and during his trial. 

	Which makes it even more interesting as to why it was not introduced at
his trial.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 11:53:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48251 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:05:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4rer19$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ra4d2$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4raqek$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rcoj0$mom@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4raqek$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com said:


>>>Is that an offer to engage in reasonable arguments with me, Mr. Giwer?  I 
>>>gladly accept.  Perhaps others would like to make similar joint 
>>>agreements with you as well--I'd certainly encourage and welcome it.

>>	There was never a problem with that as you have seen with this exchange.
>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>posting to me and about me?  

>No way.  Great attempt to crawl away with one's tail between one's legs and
>pretend that one didn't get shown the fool in front of the world, but it
>won't work.  Little Mattie-bot cried "wolf" one time too many.

>See, this is just another troll.  Play sweetness and reason, after having
>been a decrepit and vulgar ass up to now, and suck 'em in all over again. 
>Then spin them around and around.  So obvious.  So transparent.  So doomed
>to failure.

>Nope, the Giwer-bot blew it.  He's gotta go, and he's going to go.




>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                                                            
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT


"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. "

IMT VII - p. 377. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 15:30:41 PDT 1996
Article: 57803 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: The GiwerOlympics: Speed-Posting and UDP consideration
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4rhbca$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qsqki$98f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4quuhj$q9h@atlas.uniserve.com> <4r9q65$f59@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rcojh$1o94@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48284 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57803

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4r9q65$f59@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
>said:

>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>How long does it take, in Free Agent, to send a post, read another in
>>another group, change the From: line in preferences, and send another
>>post? Can it be done in four seconds? 

>>Remember that this is _Free_ Agent, which does not have any of the
>>automation features of the full version.

>>Anyone agree that it's more likely that we're looking at more than one
>>person using multiple machines? 

>>I'm analyzing the GiwerTroll's spewage for the month of June now. It's
>>quite interesting, when you take a step back. I'll be issuing about 300
>>EMP spam-cancels soon. Of course, the effect is largely symbolic, unless
>>and until I write a script to autocancel messages matching a certain
>>pattern.

>There is no doubt that he is being fed and mutiple posters are at play.  His
>ass is grass and he knows it.  I am aware of the source of his spam
>material, as well as the other posters, and may just reveal it in a day or
>so.  Giwer is gonzo.


>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                                     
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 15:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 48293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4raj2e$ae6@access1.digex.net> <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4rcvl0$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>> mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> >In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> >>      From their own website...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>[snip]
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>>> >>are Jewish sources. 
>>>> >>
>>>> >>      Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>>> >>from their own site.  We all know that it what it is.
>>>> 
>>>> >    Yes.  Off-topic.  I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>>>> >track?


>	"Off topic". Thats the new thing Stein is trying. Green is on to
>this "off topic" topic also. It so rediculous. Typical. The usual. 
>	The facts are Nizkor and all the rest of their amen corner, or
>vice versa are obsessed with "hate" groups.
>	These persons would like to play a game. 

	There is clearly no consistency in their position.  They feel they can
introduce Stormfront yet not let the JDL be introduced.  This is truly a
Jewish thing.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 15:33:19 PDT 1996
Article: 48294 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Categories (was Re: Holocaust final exam)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4rhbcm$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>  <2JUL199616330545@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31da7d36.155851515@news.zilker.net>
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>posted/emailed this one

>>In article , Marty Kelley  writes...
>>>While I have some qualms about the connotations of Ehrlich's 
>>>"conventionalist" coinage, it would be less derisive and disrespectful.
>>>"Anti-revisionist" would be another possibility; although both terms 
>>>assume a position of intellectual integrity for Holocaust denial (a 
>>>position which is easily demonstrated to be fallacious), both terms would 
>>>be acceptible to me.  "Anti-revisionist" also seems a fair descriptor of 
>>>people here who accept the established history of the Holocaust, since 
>>>they are for the most part engaging in the discussion with the express 
>>>goal of showing Holocaust denial to be a distortion of historical reality.
>>> 
>>>So take your pick: "anti-revisionist" or "conventionalist" would both be 
>>>acceptable replacements for "holohugger."
>>> 
>>>Other opinions?
>>
>>    I use the term "historian" to described those trained in historiography
>>    who do primary source research on the Holocaust.

>Just the Holocuast? You mean all those hard working folks studying the
>French Revolution or the Magna Carta aren't historians? :-) Don't
>forget us lowly average folks. You do use the term "Holocaust
>Historian" at the end of your article. :-)

>>
>>    I use the term "archivist" to describe those here on the web who
>>    catalog and synthesize primary and secondary source material into
>>    on-line archives to make Holocaust material more readily available to
>>    the masses.
>>
>>    I use the term "revisionist" to describe historians who take a contra
>>    point of view regarding the Holocaust and support their point of view
>>    with legitimate historiography.

>Again, the deniers are not historical revisionists. I agree. But don't
>put quotes around those who do real revisionism no matter what the
>time or event in history happens to be. A prime example is Davy
>Crockett and the Alamo. Did he die fighting or did he really get shot
>by firing squad? This is revisionism. Revisionism isn't making a case
>the the Alamo didn't happen, but rather that it didn't happen in the
>generally accepted manner. Were there really 5,000 Mexicans or really
>only 1,500?

	Again, another rather insane confusion between all of the events and the
gassing.  

	BTW:  The latest is not whether anyone died fighting or was executed
rather that they died begging for their lives.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 19:55:02 PDT 1996
Article: 48312 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Studies XVI:  Operation Reinhard (5/11)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <4rhbd7$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 04  2:00:23 PM PDT 1996
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs16.05
>Last-modified: 1993/05/19
>XRef: yad_vashem index

>                       YAD VASHEM STUDIES
>                              XVI
>                     Edited by Aharon Weiss

>                          YAD VASHEM
>           MARTYR'S AND HEROES' REMEMBRANCE AUTHORITY
>                        JERUSALEM 1984

>                    "Operation Reinhard": 
>       Extermination Camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka

>                         Yitzhak Arad 

>      The Construction of the Treblinka Extermination Camp 

	Another of the non-spams because it comes from a holohugger.  

>   Construction of Treblinka began after Belzec and Sobibor were in
>   operation.  The experience gained from the installation and the
>   extermination procedures in those two camps was taken into
>   consideration in the planning and building of Treblinka.  Thus, it
>   became the most "perfect" extermination camp of Operation Reinhard.

>   The camp was situated in the northeastern part of the General
>   Government, not far from Malkinia, a town with a railroad station on
>   the main Warsaw-Bialystok line and close to the Malkinia-Siedlce
>   line.

>   The camp was erected in a sparsely populated region, 4 km. from the
>   village of Treblinka and the railroad station. The site chosen for
>   the camp was wooded and thus naturally concealed. Since the spring
>   of 1941 a punishment camp had been located a few kilometers away,
>   where Polish and Jewish prisoners were made to process raw material
>   from a gravel pit for frontier fortifications.

>   At the end of April or the beginning of May 1942, an SS-unit decided
>   on the location.  The size and master plan of Treblinka were
>   identical to those of Sobibor.  

	Got this?  Identical.  That is the word used.  

The construction of the extermination
>   camp began at the end of May or beginning of June 1942.  Richard
>   Thomalla was in charge; he had completed his construction job in
>   Sobibor and had been relieved by Stangl in April 1942.  In building
>   the gas chambers he was assisted by SS-Unterscharfu"hrer Erwin
>   Lambert, a chief-of-construction for technical matters from the
>   "Euthanasia" program. The extermination sector was located in the
>   southwest, in an area measuring 200 x 250 m., totally separated from
>   the rest of the camp by barbed wire. As on the outside, branches
>   were intertwined with the barbed wire to hide it from view.  

	And apparently the leaves never fell off.  

For the
>   same reason, the entrances were placed behind a special partition.
>   The gas chambers were housed in a massive brick building in the
>   center.  

	Fascinating that 4 (or 6 or 10) chambers were in one building.  This is
new information.  

The access paths, including the "tube," in Treblinka named
>   "Street to Heaven" by the SS-men, were model led on those in Belzec
>   and Sobibor; the same applied to the "reception camp" and
>   "accommodation camp."

>   During the first stage, three gas chambers were in operation, each of
>   them,much like those in Sobibor,4 x 4 m. in size and 2.6 m. high.
>   A diesel engine producing poisonous carbon monoxide, as well as a
>   generator which supplied the whole camp with electricity, were housed
>   in a built-on room.

	This is a touch more credible than the Sobibor nonfunctional Russian
engine that was used there but it is diesel rather than gasoline.  

>   The entrance doors of the gas chambers opened into a passage in front
>   of the building; each door was 1.8 m. high and 90 cm. wide. They
>   could be hermetically closed and bolted from the outside. Inside
>   each gas chamber, opposite the entrance door, was a thick door made
>   of wooden beams, 2.5 m. high and 1.8 m. wide, which could also be
>   hermetically closed.  

	And again the ubiqutious and totally unnecessary "hermetically" sealed
door shows up.  It is only diesel exhaust.  

The walls in the gas chambers were covered with
>   white tiles up to a certain height, shower heads had been installed,
>   and water pipes ran along the ceiling--all this so as to maintain the
>   "showers" fiction. In reality the pipes conducted the poisonous gas
>   into the chambers. When the doors were shut, it was compeltely dark
>   inside.

	"Identical" but no showerheads at Sobibor.  

>   To the east of the gas chambers were huge ditches into which the
>   corpses were thrown. They had been dug with an excavator from the
>   gravel pit in Treblinka. Prisoners had to participate in this work.
>   The ditches were 50 m. long, 25 m. wide,

	80+ feet wide.  Just who was doing the body tossing?  

and 10 m. deep. A
>   narrow-gauge track had been laid from the gas chambers to transport
>   the corpses to the ditches.  Prisoners had to push the trolleys.

>   The main extermination installations were completed by mid-June 1942.
>   The murder operations began on July 23, 1942. 

	Another fascinating description leaving out the close up description of
the steaming operations including the boiler room and the push button
operated valving system.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 19:55:03 PDT 1996
Article: 48315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and "asshole"
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:48:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4rf144$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4r9n27$44e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rdbln$hrq@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03  4:52:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>DvdThomas (dvdthomas@aol.com) wrote:

>: When a new contact is civil with him [Giwer], he remains so to them.  

>Would you be so kind as to explain what incivility "SF924" performed 
>to deserve this comment from Myshkin?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?


>> Message-ID: <4r5237$kl1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
>	
>> Very good holohugger style.  You asked your question
>> under false pretenses and now you expect to continue it.  Good luck.  


>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"Life is a blur of Republicans and meat."   -- Zippy




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 19:55:04 PDT 1996
Article: 48323 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now I'm *really* confused. . .
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 139
Message-ID: <4rhbct$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d31a33.1226300@news.eden.com> <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4r9q0p$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rcusf$etk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 04  2:00:13 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

>: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>:: The G*wer-Troll 

>: [280 lines of beabling deleted]

>Now I really don't get it.  Myshkin 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

originally came to this newsfroup
>and explicitly told us that he was here merely to troll, or, as he put
>it at the time, "push people's hot buttons."

>Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to why he now considers being called
>a troll 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

a personal attack?  The only thing I can guess is that he really
>does want everyone to think that he's a liar, 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



so telling the truth would
>then be a personal attack against him by definition.

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards
>with very high IQs."
>					--J. Bronowski






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul  4 19:55:05 PDT 1996
Article: 48324 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: H*ber and Ma**ik* will lie for food
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4rhbd2$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 1 Jul 1996 13:37:55 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>>04/29/96
>>New York
>>
>>Sen. Alfonse D'Amato today called for the federal govt' to extradite the 
>>mastermind of the Achille Lauro hijacking to face trial in the U.S.
>>
>>He called Abul Abbas's recent apology for the accidental death of the 
>>cruise ship passenger leon KLINGHOFFER an "outrage", and said the Justice 
>>Department should seek to punish Abbas.
>>**********************************************
>Yes I can see how H*ber, Ma**ik*, could possibly think that it would
>have been an accident. I see it now, brave Abul Abbas, and at least
>two of his buddies bravely lift Mr. Klinghoffer off the deck of the
>ship, then in a single deft move, they heave Mr. Klinghoffer over the
>side Wheelchair and all.  Was there an accident, not by me, but the
>accident theory is one that H*ber and Ma**ik* believe, why?? Because
>how could a brave freedom fighter like Abul Abbas have done that to
>one sick, disabled Jew??  You see, H*ber, Ma**ik* , and what ever nut
>of the week is using the H*ber account on prodigy, enjoy posting
>material like the above and worse, why?? Simple, they aren't getting
>the attention that they so want from those around them, and this is
>their way of trying to gain the attention that they think they need to
>live. 
>I realize that their's is a sad world, pathetic, would be more
>appropriate, and bizzare and sick closer to reality, but hey give them
>a break, life is tough, when you hate Jews. 
>Just ask Mr. Kleim just how tough his world was, Jew hating and all,
>or maybe Ron Schoedel, who having resigned from some "movement" that
>he claimed never to have  belonged to, and yet seemed to work so hard
>at.  Why Mr. Schoedel even apologized for his misbegotten statements
>and hoped that would end that, and promptly returned, renewed with
>vigor and vim, new hope, and insights into, gasp, dare I say it,
>Jew-Hatred, disguised as religion. 
> 

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48372 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Physical evidence
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>  
>>  	My "belief" is contingent upon physical evidence.  There is no 
>physical
>>  evidence of gassing.  
>  
>>  	What can be more clear than that?  

>	A definition of what you consider "physical evidence" for starters.  You 
>have been asked several times and the sole response that I can remember is 
>that it is not eyewitness testimony.  You have yet to explain, for example, why 
>documentary evidence does not meet your standard.  Nor have you explained 
>why you reject out of hand evidence that there was a deliberate effort to destroy 
>such evidence.

>	Please note that I am not requesting an argument that convinces 
>anyone of the accuracy of you opinion but merely a clear statement of what it is.

	A smoking gun is usually considered physical evidence.

	How about one picture of bodies inside a gas chamber after gassing as
soon as the doors are opened?  How about about a long line of people
carrying bodies out of a building?  How about a picture of someone
pouring a can of something into a building from a hole in the roof?  

	How about any photographs of the actual gassing process that corresponds
to the "testimony" but excluding people in lines upon arrival and bodies
that do not indicate a cause of death?  How a significant fraction of
those 2000-3000 tons of bone fragments around A-B?  

	And if one wishes to invoke secrecy as a reason for no pictures then one
needs to produce specific orders against taking the kinds of pictures
that I describe.  There appears to have been no orders against taking
the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are excludable as
being nonspecific to the gassing issue.  

	Now you could go one step further and produce first the design
specifications for a large scale gas chamber, that means technical
specs, not simple drawings for inference, and then show the building you
folks have found in fact matches those specifications.  

	At one point I suggested physical descriptions that matched the layout
and construction of the building complexes that match the designated
buildings.  The best that were posted in response produced more
mismatches than they produced matches.  

	I have no idea what more to tell you folks about what constitutes
physical evidence.  It appears quite obvious to me.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48373 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) writes:

>>
>>I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>>whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and
>post
>>irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the
>gutters
>>
>>of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational
>discourse 
>>with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.  
>>
>>
>>
>>

>It sounds like those Maoist discussion circles with the Little Red Book
>are starting to pay off.

	This is the best the holohuggers can do, falsify confessions.  They are
all the same.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:26 PDT 1996
Article: 48374 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:55:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>> whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>> being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>> irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters
>> of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational discourse
>> with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.

>Remember, acceptance is only the first step...

	Remember that this is another example of you holohuggers supporting
Marduk and will not be forgotten.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48375 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:55:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
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References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 04  3:59:30 PM CDT 1996
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters 
>of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational discourse 
>with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.  


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48378 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 03:57:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>>	I said exactly what I said.  That there was a plagarism settlement.  

>>	What would be of interest is finding the book the plagarism was claimed
>>to  be from and which parts were involved.  

>Very interesting, since there was no such book. Getting misinformation
>from neonazi web excrement again, I see.

	As I said, my information came from the news coverage regarding the
settlement of the Roots plagarism settlement.  If you can not read that
is one thing.  To insert your own strawman is the kind of lie I have
come to expect from holohuggers.  

>There were some legal problems around a dramatic adaptation of the
>diaries by one Meyer Levin. Levin himself wrote a book about the matter;
>another appeared recently. Otto Frank didn't like the adaptation (for
>reasons about which one could argue) and more or less commissioned 
>another play, the one which won the Pulitzer Prize and has since been
>adapted to cinema and television. Levin claimed that the authors of
>this play had plagiarized his earlier adaptation; a court found that 
>Levin could not demonstrate this, since both plays were admittedly
>drawing on a common source (Anne Frank's diaries, the authorship of
>which was not in doubt).

>Anne Frank is in some small part responsible for some of the confusion
>which has grown up around her diaries, in that she rewrote the earlier
>entries when she began to consider the possibility of publication
>seriously. The original published version was an amalgam of the
>original and the revised entries, neither of which survived completely.

	I see, a 14 year old was considering publication and knew how to make
publication worthy changes.  The more you folks defend this, the more is
smells.  

>BTW, I now see that my nn reader sometimes (not always!) ignores my 
>killfile when I ask for all messages, as I do occasionally. Apologies
>for suggesting that you were making up new user IDs in a recent
>message.

	Not interested.  You folks start enough deliberate lies it is impossible
to tell one from the other.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48392 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 04:50:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 11:53:14 PM CDT 1996

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>
>>  
>>  but I am under the impression that most
>>  >    of the Jewish community distanced themselves from him 
>>  
>>  	Bullshit.  Where were the open and public condemnations?  There were
>>  none.  
>>  

>	You're a liar.  Kanhane was regularly and openly contemned to the point 
>where his political party was outlawed.
	
	That was in Israel where it is not considered anti-semitic to condemn a
terrorist Jew.  I was speaking of the US where it is considered
anti-semitic to condemn a terrorist leader when he is  a Jew.  

	As it can be spoken in Israel but not in the US, the media in the US is
in the control of the Jewish lobby.  There is no secret about that.  And
there is no secret that to say it is considered by the media to be
antisemitic and therefore it is not said.  

	The situation we had was of a terrorist leader who could not be touched
because of the media driven immunity from his being arrested for
conspiracy in terrorist actions.  Screwie Louie Farakhan has the same
media driven immunity.  

	Beyond that, stop reaching.  What in fact happened in the US was
correctly described here, Jewish leaders "distanced themselves" which
means they did not want to be associated with but refused to condemn the
terrorism of Kahane and the JDL.  Or are you really such a novice that
you have no idea what "distance" means in political terms?  Or do you
think there are people here so inexperienced that they will buy your cop
out for the terrorist organization, the JDL?  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48398 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acronym or paupacy?  You decide.  (Or:  how to beat Giwer)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>I suppose by now everyone has noticed that if anyone posts an article that
>contains a "personal attack" on Giwer, he responds with a content-free
>post that consists solely of a 50 to 300 line beable (excuse me, .sig)
>file.

>That being the case, the way to beat him on his own terms is absurdly
>simple.  All one has to do is make sure that any article in response
>to something he posts contains either the term "Giwer Troll" or the 
>term "Prince Myshkin," 

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



both of which he has decided are "personal attacks."
>Since he claims that he responds to *every* personal attack with such
>a post, that effectively kills the thread.  So pretty soon, every thread
>in which he is involved will be killed, and since the last post with
>content will be a refutation of Myshkin,
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT


"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel."

IMT XX - p. 494. 

	More Nazi physics at work. 

	I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

	On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?



 he loses the argument by default.

>I think that beta for that relativistic IQ must be somewhere above 0.999.

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards
>with very high IQs."
>					--J. Bronowski

	If YOU wish to make the NG useless for everyone, go right ahead.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48403 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 05:03:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4r7mdf$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> 
>>  
>>  	Wow such venom. Look I'm the one who's supposed to be getting
>>  mad. Remember? Chutzpah, 'Say something so outrageous that it gets
>>  your opponent mad and he can't think straight.
>>
>	That would be useless in your case.  You never could think straight.



>  	Anyway the answer to your, whatever, is, if theres a Jew worth
>>  recognizing, Einstein say, I'll recognize him or her.

>	You're a liar.

	The Great Wizard of Oz has spoken!

	Don't mind that zionist behind the curtain.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48415 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 21:10:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rhc7q$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31cffa2b.5860058@news.pacificnet.net>  <4rc3bg$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4rf8va$fs9@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>>> " It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>>> people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>>> then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>>> way; there they were killed. "
>>> 
>>> IMT VII - p.576-577. 
> 
>>In other words, Mr. Giwer refuses to accept that he must prove his own
>>assertions. 

>It's more likely that he is trying to pawn off an indictment
>statement as "evidence" again... let us see.. nope... it isn't
>evidence... let's keep looking... is it judgement?  ....no, it
>isn't judgement.... hmmmm... what could it be?

	As you know I have not claimed it as evidence.  

	It is one more thing in the league as your gassing stories.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48418 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Christians 'take it like a man'
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:56:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
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References: <31d9d63d.9319838@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>		
>	Over the last two years or so there have been a number of
>articles in the N.Y. and L.A. Times about Biblical revisionism. There
>also has been a couple sizable aticles in TIME Magazine, given front
>cover attention.
>	The articles have been basically reports on conferences and such,
>attended by scholars, and the dogmas challenged have ranged from did
>Christ do this , or did he do that, was he really the son of god.

>	Now if there has been any wailing and snarling of terms like
>'anti-Christianism' I don't recall seeing any reports. Nor do I recall
>seeing anyone out to have any conferences banned.
> 
>	Now theres something noticably different with all this.

>	Here we have challenges to the very heart of a global religion
>and nary a uproar, but when it comes to challenging the Holocaust
>story - "ANTI-SEMITISM - NEO NAZI - BIGOT - RACIST" - and other
>naughty accusations. 

	And excellant analogy of course, no less than I have come to expect of
you.

	But in comparison you will not the difference between my articles on the
homosexual encounter of Jesus and the multiple idols of the Israelites
you will see the same thing.  The former gets zero response.  The latter
garners all kinds of accusations.  	 

	The responses to the latter are as though I posted in in
alt.fundie.christian.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul  5 16:52:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48476 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 21:15:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4rafiv$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com whines:

>	As you should be aware, Christians have been much worse upon
>	their fellow Christians than they ever were on Jews.  Or have
>	you met an Albagensian lately?  The last I heard they were all
>	murdered in a single night.  Quite an accomplishment for a mere
>	conspiracy.  There were many others that no longer exist
>	including the original gnostic wing.  

>So, in Mr. Giwer's twisted mind, Jews should not protest against
>Christian violence as Christians are victims of thier own violence,
>too!  For my part, I will continue to protest as it may save innocent
>Christians of a minority sect from the majority, as well as saving
>innocent Jews.

	So in context of the thread you are going to continue to call people
nazis and antisemites at the slightest provocation and continue to make
enemies.  And you will continue to equate what happened to Jews during
WW II with Christians.  

	Try to keep in mind that if Jews were not prohibited from joining the
Nazi Party there would have been Jewish war criminals.  You folks keep
assuming there is some kind of inherent difference to Jews.  

>On the other hand, the author of this sanguine analysis claims to be
>defending Christians from unfair criticism.  With friends like Mr.
>Giwer, Christianity needs no enemies.  The irony is that Mr. Moran
>will defend Mr. Giwer even after this attack on his precious fellow
>Christians, even as he continues to concoct vile slanders against
>Jews who mildly remind Christians of their own history.

	Rather I am pointing out the false and malicious equation of Christians
with Nazis, in particular the SS.  

>Mr. Giwer continues:

>	As for the need for conversion, that was a teaching of the
>	Christian sect of Jews long before it was differentiated by
>	Paul.  The original teaching as ascribed to that Jew, Yeshua.
>	It is repeated by his faithful sidekick, the Jew Simon Peter
>	who, although he approved Paul's variation, was not a part
>	of it.  

>Both Peter and Paul were immediately disowned by the Jewish community
>of their own time, so their missionary activity cannot be described
>as a Jewish custom.  

	If you can document that happening you will have gone a long way towards
establishing the historicity of the event.  

	But that will have nothing to do with Yeshua.  

>But, at least, when they were preaching their
>adherents had not yet gotten state power nor engaged in violence
>against the Jewish community.

	The only report we have is of Paul who was apparently originally engaged
in such violence against those who would later call themselves
Christians.  So, unless we discount the entire Paul story, we know who
initiated the violence.  

>Mr. Giwer continues:

>	When I read of other Jews and in particular Rabbis condemning
>	this statement you will have grounds for saying they think
>	differently.  Until then, you are the only one making the claim
>	that all Jews think alike.  

>Which is like saying that until we see Mr. Giwer condemning the
>H*b*rs, we must assume that he thinks just like them.  

	I haven't seen him post any support for his statements although some
interpretations appear as legitimate as any other.  

In fact, how
>would Mr. Giwer know that there has not been condemnation of the
>statements?  

	Because "they would be used by our enemies against us" is the prevalent
attitude.  

He assumes, as all good anti-Semites do, that all Jewish
>opinions and events end up in the mainstream media because Jews
>control the media.  In fact, the mainstream media consistently
>ignores Jewish opinion and events, unless it can be sensationalized
>in some vulgar way, the same as the media do with everyone.

	The US media didn't publicize the evidence that the IDF deliberagely
bombed the refugee camp.  That is because Jews have falsely but
successfully linked criticism of Israel with antisemitism.  

	After that shelling there were some comments by the IDF to the effect
that "they were only Arabs."  I did hear the US media cover the
denouncement of the words by whoever was running the country at the
time.  It took me a bit of looking until I found some of the sample
statements that were being denounced on the Electronic [London]
Telegraph.  

	Who controls the media is in the eyes of the beholder.  

	As I think I have rather adequately demonstrated, at least a third of
the staffs of the news media outlets originating in NYC are likely
Jewish (given that NYC is about 1/3 Jewish) and if there is any truth to
The Bell Curve closer to half.  And we have Marlon Brando who has said
"what our enemies have used against us" about Hollywood.  

	That sort of leaves the Washington Post, the LA Times and CNN as sort of
major news outlets without such an expected preponderance of their
staffs being Jewish.  	

	I, for one, would not try to make the case that the staff of an
organization does not shape the organiztion.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48516 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 01:11:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 141
Message-ID: <4rkeml$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article ,
>schwartz@infinet.com said:

>>
>>In article <4rc3bg$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>> 

>>> >"He who asserts must prove" is a valid, reasonable request. Mr. Giwer is
>>> >obviously incapable of reasonable debate, since he is without reason.
>>> > 


>>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>> Subject: Those Polish spies again
>>> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT
>>> 
>>>         Anyone want to explain this one?  
>>> 
>>> " It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>>> people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>>> then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>>> way; there they were killed. "
>>> 
>>> IMT VII - p.576-577. 
>> 
>>In other words, Mr. Giwer refuses to accept that he must prove his own
>>assertions. 

>It's called being a gutless, trolling, spamming piece of pond-scum, Sara. 
>Giwer will soon be gone.  He has totally lost, and is reduced to behaving
>like a six-year old.



>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                                                         
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	id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee 
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer 
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03 

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you.  There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I.  Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick.  Ergo, this message.  If you don't want to
correspond with me, a simple "fuck off McFee" bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months.  And
something
doesn't add up.  I have difficulty believing you are really a
"revisionist",
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent.  Most
"revisionists" are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not.  What
you do
seem to like to do is argue.  Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out.  And you do this well.  Your
techniques are very effective.  You know how to push buttons.  If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that's what you do.  If insult will elicit a response, you
insult. 
If obscenity, you swear.  If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in.  And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator.  You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan.  You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant.  In other words, you troll.  You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them.  Put another way, it's all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune.  No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair.  You played me like a trout during that
one.  Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone.  You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would "push my buttons" and you were right.

So, is that it?  Is that what makes you tick?


--
Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net)
I'll write no line before its time







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48527 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 22:16:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
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References: <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qsjd2$5ho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4r9lh8$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ra76l$7n3@atlas.uniserve.com> <4radpv$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ri0in$3bca@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4radpv$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com said:

>>
>>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>>Mr. Giwer is to be commended for conducting himself  throughout this
>>>post without the use of unwarranted childish, disrespectful
>>>namecalling and/or gratuitous profanities and invective.  

>>	Do you really think I give a damn about your opinion?  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes.
Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve to
regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory."

IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  


>[deleted]

>>	Yes, fatbroad, you have done it again, demonstrated that you are as
>>ignorant of the current version of the holocaust myth as you are of HTML
>>or anything else that would in fact earn the co-webmaster title.  

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both.  The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.  

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to 

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes.
Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve to
regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory."

IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  

>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>                                               




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48539 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 03:47:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4r471c$691@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606 (ehrlich606@aol.com) wrote:

>	Matt has had a lot of personal things said about him over time:
>	if he gives it back, I am not going to say he hasn't earned the
>	right.  But I do believe that he has indicated that he won't get
>	personal if people don't get personal with him.

>I responded:

>	That is 100% incorrect.  Mr. Giwer is pleased to start the
>	insults and then whine about the resulting barrage directed back
>	at him.

>	I can personally testify that Mr. Giwer has gotten personal with
>	me without the slightest provocation, and I have returned the
>	sentiments tenfold.

>In article <4rcs50$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com whines:

>	Given that I have not "whined"

>Mr. Giwer whines even louder when his whining is pointed out!

>But I only started pointing it out after reading the vile insults
>that Mr. Giwer peppers his posts with.  As I wrote above -- which Mr.
>Giwer has not and cannot refute -- he has gotten personal with me
>without the slightest provocation.

	Only a holohugger would take what I post as a "vile insult."  

	Only a Nazi would take a permanent worldwide economic boycott of Germany
at the depths of the Depression as a threat.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48544 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now I'm *really* confused. . .
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:13:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I see that the mentally retarded Matt Giwer has now created
>a new kind of spam: he posts the same article not only dozens
>of times a day, but also a few times per article.

>This does prove that mentally retarded people can spam 
>newsgroups and, possibly, destroy them. Score one for the
>great electronic democracy. He may be too stupid to find a 
>job, but he can destroy a newsgroup.

	I respond to personal attacks against me with attacks against your
precious gassing.  

	What problem do you have with that?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:59 PDT 1996
Article: 48561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 05:41:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

># Looks like theres going to be a celebration party at
># Nizkor. 

>I will not party. Smith is a truly repulsive person, but he
>should be allowed to have his web site. To the best of my
>knowledge, and from reading this group, everybody in "Nizkor"
>disagrees with this kind of action. But one can expect Moran
>to lie about this - we know who we're dealing with here: a liar
>and forger.

>Unlike "leading revisionist" Ernst Zundel, I do not believe
>in silencing those who do not agree with me. As many people
>have said - let the "revisionist" neo-Nazi scum be out here 
>in the open, for all the world to see.

	How many from Nizkor have protested the shutdown?  

	You may all raise your hands.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 48565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!netrover2!news2.interlog.com!n2tor.istar!tor.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:53:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4r41pt$l3h@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31cffa2b.5860058@news.pacificnet.net> <31d3dfb0.437697@news.pacificnet.net> <28JUN199621160930@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31d3dfb0.437697@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>>	Under alt.rev. post "Evil Christians" it was reported how the
>>>Southern Baptist Conference made a resolution to convert Jews and
>>>"Rabbi Leon Klenicki, ...Anti-Defamation League, ...said he was
>>>'very sad' about the resolution, 'Especially after the Holocaust,
>>>Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the Jews'".
>>> 
>>>Again, here is what the rabbi said:  "Especially after the Holocaust,
>>>Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the Jews".
>>>
>>>Now in a letter to the editor, N.Y.Times, 6/25/96 this is what he says
>>>he said, under the word "clarification":
>>>
>>>     "Baptists Are Invited To Holocaust Reckoning"
>>>
>>>"Writing on the Southern Baptists' planned outreach to the Jewish
>>>community, Paul P. Baard (letter, June 18) addresses a statement I
>>>made as reported in a June 14 news article that requires
>>>clarification. I did not say Christians were guilty of the Holocaust.
>>>What I noted is that Christianity, until modern times, presented
>>>Judaism in a negative manner."
>>>
>>>Again the rabbi's statement:
>>>
>>>"Especially after the Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk
>>>about a mission to the Jews".

>    Looks like his initial wording was unintentionally ambiguous and he
>    wrote a letter to the Times to clarify what he meant.  Pretty
>    straightforward, me thinks.

	And in what manner have you divined that it was unintentional?  

>>	Could this be the end of the "Southern Baptist Law Center" or
>>whatever they call that Jewish liaison organization that is always
>>trying to undo the 1st Amendment?

>    I doubt it.  They will all get things patched up.  Only the hateful
>    bigots will keep fanning the flames.

	Defined as though who point out the facts as they are.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 48580 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Seven Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 4)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 05:19:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48580 soc.history:6761 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:132

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-10q
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/27

>"He who makes a claim bears the responsibility 
>                                   of supporting it." (Matt Giwer)

>Question 1 [February 1996]
>--------------------------

	When I do it, it is span.  When the Nizkor itself does it, it is not ...


Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)

>   Mr. Giwer, during the course of discussions in February, 1996,
>   in which you performed some truly amazing mental gymnastics in
>   a futile attempt to confuse everyone, you made the following
>   statement:

>      Perhaps he is in league with the revisionists at Yad Vashem
>      who reduced the official number from 6 million to a bit over 
>      3 million. (Giwer, The 4-Million)

>   In subsequent follow-up articles on the same general topic,
>   that is, the number of Jewish victims to the Holocaust, you
>   were repeatedly asked to support this claim with
>   documentation. You have not, and will not, do this, since 
>   the statement you made is an outright lie; however, for the
>   record, Mr. Giwer, when will you produce documentation,
>   from Yad Vashem, in support of your assertion?

>Question 2 [February 1996]
>--------------------------

>   Also, in February of 1996, you claimed that since the United Nations
>   did not come into existence until 1945 that reference to the United
>   Nations could not have occured in 1944:

>	In August 1944 (fourty FOUR) how could the United Nations have
>	regarded him as anything when it would not even come into existence
>	until 15 months later? (Giwer, Re: Jewish Census)

>   Are you now prepared to retract that question in light of the fact
>   that you have been presented evidence that term "United Nations" was 
>   used as early as 1942? 

>Question 3 [February 1996]
>--------------------------

>   On February 7, 1996 you made the following comment in reference to
>   the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge:

>        I was paying attention at the time and not once did I notice any
>	Jewish group protesting ouside of the Cambodian Embassy and I was
>	living in the DC area at the time, Fairfax County, Virginia to be
>	specific.  (Giwer, Re: INTERNET FREE SPEECH WEB SITE ! (this
>	one's not a troll))

>   Could you please specify the location of the Cambodian embassy to the
>   United States at the time of the Khmer Rouge. After you discover that 
>   you are unable to do this, will you instead explain why you lied?

>Question 4 [February 1996]
>--------------------------

>   On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the
>   production of "HCN" from burning atmospheric nitrogen:

>        It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
>	combustion.  You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
>	contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
>	at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
>	as well as CO and a mess of other things.  With enough oxygen and
>	good design you will get all CO2 as the result.  And of course if
>	you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
>	of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases.  Do you think there is
>	some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
>        Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
>	lets wait for his commentary.

>	...

>	Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
>	it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door -
>	throw the rest away)

>   Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how
>   burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
>   Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
>   NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
>   smog.  Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
>   coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
>   The part that's really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
>   enters into the production of cyanides.  Please be so kind as to
>   explain.

>Question 5
>----------

>   You have asserted that eyewitnesses to gassings have noted that
>   the victims took "tens of minutes" to die, and you claim that
>   this assertion contradicts your other assertion that Zyklon B
>   would have killed them more quickly.
>    
>   Here is the relevant excerpt from what you wrote:

>      For a moment there I thought had a way to salvage those stories
>      that talk about the screaming going on for tens of minutes.
>       
>          After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had
>          passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas
>          chamber was opened.
>       
>      Note the ten to fifteen minutes. (Giwer, Re: the mechanism of
>      hydrogen cyanide inhalation poisoning)
>    
>   Mr. Giwer, does the "ten to fifteen minutes" in the text you
>   quoted (See URL 
>   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html) 
>   refer to the time that the screaming went on -- i.e. before
>   the silence -- or does it refer to something else?
>    
>   If it refers to something else, do you still stand by your
>   statement that:

>      ...I am the only one who has read what people keep saying I
>      should read. (Ibid.)

>Question Six [June 1996]
>------------------------

>   You have written, of late, the following comments regarding
>   the number of Holocaust victims:

>      6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>    and ...

>      To the Holocaust museum folks the other 6 million are 
>      the footnote.

>   Daniel Mittleman responded to these comments with the 
>   following:

>   "Below ... is the Mission Statement of the Holocaust Museum.
>   (http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/mission.html)
>   Please note in particular the second paragraph.  The reader can 
>   determine for himself whether or not Mr. Giwer's charge that 
>   'the other six million are a footnote' is accurate:

>      "Mission Statement

>      The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's 
>      national institution for the documentation, study, and 
>      interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this 
>      country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during 
>      the Holocaust.

>      The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution 
>      and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its 
>      collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary 
>      victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, 
>      and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for 
>      racial, ethnic, or national reasons.  Millions more, including 
>      homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and 
>      political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and 
>      death under Nazi tyranny." (Mittleman, Both Sides)

>   Mr. Giwer, please explain why you lied about the United States 
>   Holocaust Memorial Museum's purpose and viewpoint.

>Question Seven
>--------------

>   On June 15, 1996, you stated that:

>      "In the process of burning the two bones most likely 
>      to be left are the pelvis and the skull. (Giwer, Dem bones, 
>      dem bones, dem dry bones)

>   In response to subsequent questioning about the truth of this 
>   statement, you have made some claims about the human skeleton 
>   which, if true, would set the science of human skeletal biology 
>   on its ear, bones and all.  

>   In reply to a poster who asked you how many bones there are in 
>   the human skull and pelvis, you wrote:

>      "The skull, two in an adult, counting the jaw, discounting 
>      the six small bones in the ear.  The pelvis, one.  (Giwer; 
>      Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones;  June 16, 1996)

>   When questioned about the accuracy of your answer by a poster 
>   who pointed out that the skull consists of several bones, 
>   you replied:

>      "You are talking about the skull of a child before the 
>      skull is fused.  (Giwer; Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry 
>      bones; June 18, 1996)

>   In response to this, another poster repeatedly asked you what 
>   degree of closure (or fusion, if you prefer) there is in the 
>   lambdoidal, sagittal and coronal sutures of the human cranium, 
>   on average, by age 35.  She pointed out that these are the major 
>   sutures of the cranial vault (skull), and cited human skeletal 
>   anatomy texts in which the answer could be found.

>   Your final statement related to this matter was reiteration of 
>   your original claim:

>      "The fact remains that the pelvis and the skull are the bones 
>      most likely to survive any form of cremation and the skull is 
>      never mentioned by those so-called eyewitnesses. (Giwer; Re: 
>      Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones; June 22, 1996)

>   As a qualified scientist perhaps you would answer the question 
>   about when and how completely the different bones of the skull 
>   fuse together.  We know that in normal burial, the adult skull 
>   remains intact.  But we also know that the skull consists of a 
>   number of bones, and that fusion of these different bones into 
>   a single mass remains incomplete well into adulthood.  Please 
>   address the question related to closure and then explain why you 
>   think that after cremation, intact skulls should have been 
>   recovered and easily identified among the ashes removed from 
>   crematoria.

>For Work Cited, see
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-10q-citations

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>-----------------------| Prince Myshkin's Giwer Bait Sold Here
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:02 PDT 1996
Article: 48582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MoreHolocaust Almanac BS - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 05:35:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <4rku75$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4risjp$6o2@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05 10:39:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/german/farben.ig farben.001
>Last-modified: 1995/06/21
>XRef: holocaust hilberg.02

>   Borkin discusses the Wannsee Conference, at which the "Final Solution
>   of the Jewish Question" was adopted, and then notes that the SS
>   began to increase their purchases of Zyklon B substantially. This
>   citation was the first I have seen that mentions the indicator
>   irritant added to the gas under compulsion of law. (Much like the
>   odor added to propane.)

>      In the past the S.S. had bought moderate amounts of Zyklon B from
>      Degesch as a vermin control in its concentration camps. When the
>      Final Solution added Jews to the S.S. extermination plans, Degesch
>      profits reflected the new prosperity. I.G.'s dividends on its
>      Degesch investment for the years 1942, 1943, and 1944 were double
>      those of 1940 and 1941.      European Jews. Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961. 568; NG-2586-E.>

	So the usage doubled.  But then others claim there was no substantial
increase in usage so as to explain the lack of increase in orders for
it.  It was just a small amount that would not stand out from the normal
usage.  

>      At least one top official of Degesch, Gerhard Peters, the managing
>      director, definitely knew about the new use of Zyklon B. He had
>      been specifically informed of the details of the Final Solution by
>      Kurt Gerstein, the chief disinfection officer of the S.S., who did
>      the purchasing of Zyklon B. 

	Kurt "he'll confes to anything" Gerstein appears again.  

>      There was still another episode that gave the officials of Degesch
>      more than a hint of the dread purpose to which their Zyklon B was
>      being put by the S.S. When manufactured as a pesticide Zyklon B
>      contained a special odor, or 'indicator,' to warn human beings of
>      its lethal presence. The inclusion of such a warning odor was
>      required by German law. When the S.S. demanded that the new,
>      large order of Zyklon B omit the 'indicator,' no one familiar with
>      the workings of the S.S. could have failed to realize the purpose
>      behind the strange request. The Degesch executives at first were
>      unwilling to comply.  But compassion was not behind their refusal.
>      What troubled them was the fact that the S.S. request endangered
>      Degesch's monopoly position. The patent on Zyklon B had long
>      since expired.  However, Degesch retained its monopoly by a patent
>      on the warning odor.  To remove the 'indicator' was bad business,
>      opening up the possibility of unwelcome competition.        memorandum from Dr. Heinrich to Mr. Amend, dated 06/21/1944> The
>      S.S. made short shrift of this objection and the company removed
>      the warning odor. Now the doomed would not even know it was
>      Degesch's Zyklon B. (Borkin, 122-123)

>   Note that the "special odor" to which Borkin refers was not merely
>   an offensive odor, but an irritant.  When used for delousing, this
>   served two purposes.  The first was to ensure that anyone
>   accidentally exposed to the gas, even if they did not know what was
>   happening, would leave the area immediately to relieve the symptoms
>   of burning eyes and throat.
>   
>   The second purpose was to increase the respiration of insects and
>   thus to cause them to die more quickly.

	And third more people using it to "exterminate" people started to die
>from  the lack of it.  

>   This is clear upon examination of document number NI-9912, commonly
>   known as the "Degesch manual" for the use of Zyklon.  On page one,
>   the manual states explicitly:

>      ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an
>      irritant by a carrier.  Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown
>      granular mass (Diagriess - Dia gravel) or small blue cubes
>      (Erco) are used as carriers.  Apart from serving its purpose as
>      indicator, this irritant also had the advantage of stimulating
>      the respiration of insects. Prussic acid and the irritant are
>      generated through simple evaporation.

>   If, as the denial set maintains, the S.S. had only wanted Zyklon B
>   for insect control, they would most certainly not have wished to
>   remove not only the warning device, but also the chemical that made
>   the prussic acid more effective.  That would have been not only
>   counterproductive but also quite dangerous.

>   It also seems clear that the only conceivable reason to remove the
>   indicator odor would be to disguise the killing agent from the
>   victims - hydrocyanic acid has only a weak odor described sometimes
>   as like "bitter almonds," or, as in the Degesch manual, "peculiar,
>   repulsively sweet." In short, it shows clear intent, thus refuting
>   yet another denial myth - that there was no organized plan to
>   exterminate anyone.

>                            Work Cited

>   Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York:
>   The Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company.

	But of course we know that NO ONE was EVER deceived by the lack of the
irritant.  We know in fac that they saw clouds of poison gas arise and
the ran from it, screaming so to speak.  

	We know there is no basis in any "testimony" for any claim of the lack
on an "irritant" making the slightest difference.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:03 PDT 1996
Article: 48585 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach, same old troll
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 21:15:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4rk0s9$qh0@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbn4p$rsi@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4rc6h1$s20@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  4:19:05 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

	Anyone want to explain this one?  

" It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. "

IMT VII - p.576-577. 



kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4rbn4p$rsi@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, 
>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>>	Giwer's at it again - he followed-up an article, just to paste a quote
>>in at the end - an irrelevant one too. Does he just fall asleep at the
>>keyboard or is he using a spambot?

>Which Giwer?

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | Shofar FTP Archives
>-----------------------| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network      | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:04 PDT 1996
Article: 48592 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They probably thought they were being inoculated'
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:28:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4rl1a5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05 11:32:37 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>(Four Polish witnesses, three of them doctors, and two SS men, testify
>about murder with phenol injections in Auschwitz. Among the murdered
>were 120 children from the village of Zamosc).

>All the following testimonies are excerpted from "Auschwitz: the
>Proceedings Against Mulka and Others" by Bernd Nauman. The SS men
>who usually did the killing were Hantl, Scherpe, and Klehr (who also
>participated in the gassing operations).

>Testimony of Professor Fejkiel from Cracow (Poland) who was arrested by 
>the Nazis and imprisoned in Auschwitz between October 1940 and January
>1945 (p. 153-4):
>----------------------------------------------------------------------                                       
>The witness reports that the experiments to kill prisoners with 
>injections were begun in 1942.

>"First they tried benzine, but that turned out to be impractical. I
>know of a case where death did not occur for forty-five minutes. They
>looked for a quicker method. The second medium was hydrogen; then came
>phenolic acid".

>First it was administered intravenously, then directly into the heart:
>"I assume that the intravenous method took too long".

>"Do you know who killed, where the murders took place, and how many
>people were the victims of such injections?"

>"I will begin with the number killed: I assume that about 30,000 people
>were killed in this fashion".

>First came infirm Jews, then other hospital patients, then people not
>hospitalized, including prisoners "which the Gestapo sent in a round-
>about way".

>"Who did the killing?"

>"At first Dr. Entress himself, then Klehr, and then - in this order - 
>Scherpe and Hantl. Hantl did it rarely. We thought of Hantl as a decent
>man and were surprised that he did it".


>Testimony of SS men Klehr (p. 71):
>------------------------------------------
>"How did you kill these prisoners?"
>"Well, like before. With a shot of phenol into the heart".


>SS men Scherpe is asked about the murder of the Zamosc children (p. 79):
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>According to testimony by numerous witnesses during the pretrial
>hearing, at least 119 children were murdered with phenol injections
>in the closing days of February, 1943. Force was used to get them into
>the executioner's chair, and Scherpe himself gave them the lethal
>injection into their hearts. It was so horrible that the "medic" ran
>away in desperation. The next day his colleague Hantl, a co-defendant,
>murdered the remaining 80 children.

>"You broke down and couldn't go on?" the judge asks.
>"That is exaggerated. It isn't true".

>Scherpe no longer wants to admit what he himself said earlier, that the
>children, panic-stricken, had screamed.

>"That is not so. I didn't say that. It is also not true. They suspected
>nothing. They probably thought they were being inoculated".

>The last boy waiting outside began to cry and called for his companions
>who didn't return. And that was the only indication the defendant had
>that the children may have feared death.


>Polish physician, Dr. Klodzinski, testifies about the murder of the 
>Zamosc children (p. 152):
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>"In the afternoon came the order to kill the children. They were led
>into the washroom, and told to undress and line up. And then Scherpe
>came; I still remember that".

>Klodzinski speaks of the dead silence in Block 20 at that moment; 
>nothing was heard except thumps "- it was a muffled sound" - as the
>heads and bodies of the slain children fell to the floor of the 
>washroom.

>"Suddenly Scherpe came out of the room and said 'I can't anymore', and
>left. After a while Hantl took his place and and murdered the remaining
>children".


>Warsaw physician Dr. Glowacki testifies (p. 137-8):
>---------------------------------------------------
>"How many in your opinion were selected by the defendant [Klehr] on his
>own authority?"

>"He certainly selected and killed more than 10,000".

>[...]

>But the witness saw how Scherpe "personally administered injections in
>Block 20. It happened during the murder of children from the vicinity
>of Zamosc. There were so many of them that they had to line them up
>between the barracks. Some of the children wee led into the area of
>Block 20, where Scherpe killed them while the others were still playing
>outside. There were more than 100".

>He remembers this case so well because Scherpe had suddenly paused. "We
>thought he was conscience-stricken and that was the reason he broke off
>in the middle of murdering the children. I clearly remember him 
>stopping. He left, and we never saw him again after that. Hantl took 
>over. Hantl finished the murder of the children".

>Stanislaus Glowa testifies (p. 183-186):
>----------------------------------------
>Glowa, like many of the witnesses who preceded him, tells of the 
>"experimental gassing" at the end of 1941 in Block 11, of the slayings
>with phenol, first at Block 28 and then in Block 20 of the prisoner
>hospital.

>"Klehr, Scherpe and Hantl regularly took part in the killings with 
>phenol. But I would like to point out at this time, for the sake of
>justice, if I had to set up a scale of responsibility, that the last-
>named behaved like saints compared to Klehr".

>[...]

>The court also hears this witness tell of the fate of 120 boys from the
>Polish village of Zamosc. Their parents had been killed, and the
>children were brought to Auschwitz, where, after a few weeks, it was
>decided to kill them as well. Work-detail leader Palitzch brought them
>into the courtyard of the hospital on a February morning in 1943, where
>the played and were given food by older prisoners. 

>"They were hungry and frightened and told of having been beaten. All of
>us felt sorry for them. Again and again they asked: 'Will we be killed?
>Why?'. They had to wait a few hours to the end".

>Prisoner-clerk Glowa sat in the aisle of hospital building 20, where
>almost daily he crossed of the names of patients "injected" by Klehr
>from the list of inmates. Not far from where he sat was the curtain 
>behind which the victims had to stand in the corridor until a prisoner 
>took them into the "examination room" where Klehr was waiting for them 
>with his phenol injection.

>"Scherpe and Hantl came in that afternoon, and they worked for a long
>time. In order to shorten the terrible torment of the children, I would
>take them to the curtain and tell them they are going to be bathed. The
>first ones had screamed with terror in the room".

>"Do you have children"? Glowa asks in a breaking voice, and then 
>continues: "It was horrible. Why did they kill us? That is why I 
>helped, to shorten the torment. After it was over I saw Hantl in a 
>state of complete collapse". 


>

>The court at Frankfurt sentenced Klehr to life in prison, Scherpe to
>4 years and 6 months, Hantl to 3 years and 6 months. Since Hantl had
>served his sentence in confinement awaiting trial, he left the court a
>free man.

>-Danny Keren.

Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:05 PDT 1996
Article: 48593 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Construction in Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:29:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <4rl1as$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05 11:33:00 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Bischoff, of the Auschwitz construction
>department, to SS General Kammler, January 29, 1943
>[The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
>1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 158-159]
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Crematorium No. 2. The completed furnaces have been started up in
>the presence of Engineer Prufer from Messers. Topf (of Erfurt). The
>planks cannot yet be moved from the ceiling of the mortuary cellar
>on account of frost, but this is not important, as the gassing
>cellar can be used for that purpose. The ventilation plant has
>been held up by restrictions on rail transport, but the installation
>should be ready by February 20th.


>Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Bischoff, March 6 1943
>[Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac,
>the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 434]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> ... order of 6/3/1943 concerning the delivery of a gas tight door
>100 x 192 cm for cellar I of Krematorium III, to be produced to
>the identical pattern and dimensions as the cellar door of
>Krematorium II which is situated opposite, with peephole of
>double 8 mm glass, with rubber sealing strip and frame.


>Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to SS-General Kammler 
>estimating the number of corpses that can be disposed off in 24 hours 
>in the Auschwitz crematoriums, June 25 1943
>[Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac,
>the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247]
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1.) Crematorium I
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  3 x 2 muffles             340 persons

> 2.) Crematorium II
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  5 x 3 muffles             1440 persons

> 3.) Crematorium III
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  5 x 3 muffles             1440 persons 

> 4.) Crematorium IV
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  8 muffles                  768 persons

> 5.) Crematorium V
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  8 muffles                  768 persons


>(See 

>ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/pub/nizkor/camps/auschwitz/images/Furn_cap.jpg

>for a photo of this document).


>-Danny Keren.


Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:06 PDT 1996
Article: 48594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 23:43:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4rk9hs$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d7d889.1586508@news.pacificnet.net> <1JUL199620395531@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31d913fe.2249453@news.pacificnet.net> <31dd2578.359978@news.pacificnet.net> <5JUL199610152261@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  4:47:08 PM PDT 1996

dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31dd2578.359978@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <31d7d889.1586508@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>>>	
>>>>>	"Remember the Children" is the most prevalant motto found posted
>>>>>around the premises of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. It
>>>>>is displayed on the inside and on the outside.
>> 
>>Mittleman:
>>>>    When did you visit the Museum?
>> 
>> 
>>Moran:
>>>	August '93. On a Thursday I visited it at about 4:00 PM and had
>>>to leave around 5:00 when it closed. The next day around 10:00 AM I
>>>returned and left around 1:00 PM. I spent about 1/2 an hour
>>>interviewing the staff. This was when I found out that the trash bins
>>>were emptied about every twenty minutes or so, to make sure no one saw
>>>how many of the little card bios of alleged victims were thrown away,
>>>on the spot. Check them out next time you go there.
>> 
>> 
>>Moran:
>>>	Do you have anything to say about the post directly?
>> 
>> 
>>Moran:
>>	Since he didn't come back, I guess Mittleman couldn't do it.

>    No, in fact I didn't have anything to say about this post directly.  I
>    didn't think you stated anything worth commenting on.  I thank you for
>    responding to my question about whether you had visited the museum.

>    Now, you might consider offering some support for your assertion that
>    historians have changed their interpretation of whether both Buchenwald
>    and Bergen-Belson were extermination camps or not.  it has been awhile
>    now that you have been avoiding this and some of your precious lurkers
>    might begin to sense you are being less than fully forthcoming with
>    them, zeyde.

	You folks keep trying to substitute historians for the war crimes trials
themselves.  It is clear these historians have only served the function
of eliminating the most bizarre aspects.

	They are only individuals.  For the trials, there were investigators
>from  four countries, a veritable army of investigators which found all
kinds of incredible things including mass execution be gassing.  

	All these historians have done is "conclude" that it must have all
happened in Russian liberated lands as such things could not be found in
places where there was access.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:07 PDT 1996
Article: 48597 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 07:19:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 240
Message-ID: <4rl49u$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 06 12:23:42 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:

>Once more Moran breaks wind in alt.revisionism with yet another decietful
>and worthless exposition in intellectual dishonesty:

>>         
>>                          Partial Repost
>>                     from "Holocaust of Mind"
>>                                     
>> 
>> V.                         Raul Hilberg,
>>              "The Destruction of European Jews"
>> 
>> "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
>> Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
>> Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
>> Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
>> postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
>> laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
>> to speak, nonexistent'".

>"On October30, 1941, Gebeitskommisar Carl of Sluzk, WHite Russia, reported
>to Kube that the 11th Lithuanian Police battalion had arrived in his city
>and had come suddenly in order to wipe out the Jewish community. He had
>pleaded with the battalion commander for a postponement, pointing out that
>the Jews were working as skilled laborers and specialists and that White
>Russian mechanics were, 'so to speak, nonexistant.' Certainly the skilled
>men would have to be sifted out. The battalion commander did not
>contradict him, and the interview ended upon a note of complete
>understanding. The police battalion then encircled the Jewish quarter and
>dragged out everybody. White Russians in the area tried desperately to get
>out. Factories and workshops stopped fucntioning. The _Geibietskommissar_
>hurried to the scene; he was shocked by what he saw. 'There was no
>question of an action against the Jews anymore. It looked rather like a
>revolution.' Shots were fired. Lithuanian police hit Jews with rifle butts
>and rubber truncheons. Shops were turned inside out. Peasant carts
>(_Panjewagen_) which had been ordered by the army to move ammunition stood
>abandoned with their horses in the streets. Outside the town the mass
>shootings were carried out hurredly. Some of the Jews, wounded but not
>killed, worked themselves out of the graves. When the police battalion
>departed, Gebeitskommisar Carl had a handful of Jewish workers left. In
>every shop there were a few survivors, some of them with bloddy and
>bruised faces, their wives and children dead." (Ibid. p.246.)

>And what of such actions? What did they accomplish, besides brutal and
>wanton mass murder? According to Hilberg a report dated December 2, 1941,
>by an expert in the Armament Inspectorate, Oberkreigsverwaltungsrat
>Professor Seraphim, to the chief of the Economy-Armaments Office in the
>OKW summarized it thus:

>"Serophim wrote that, obviously, 'the kind of solution of the Jewish
>problem applied in the Ukraine' was based on ideological theories, not on
>economic considerations. So far, 150,000 to 200,000 Jews had been
>'executed' in the _Reichkommissariat_. One result of this operation was
>that considerable numbers of 'superflous eaters' had been eliminated.
>Undoubtably, the dead had also been a hostile element 'which hated us.' On
>the other hand, the Jews had been 'anxious' and 'obliging' from the start.
>They had tried to avoid everything that might have displeased the German
>administration; they had played no significant part in sabotage; they had
>constituted no danger to the armed forces. Although driven only by fear,
>they had been producing goods in satisfactory quantities.

>"Moreover the killing of the Jews could not be looked upon as an isolated
>phenomenon. The city population and farm laborers were already starving.
>'It must be realized,' concluded Seraphim, 'that in the Ukraine only
>Ukranians can produce economic values. If we shoot the Jews, let the
>prisoners of war perish, condemn considerable parts of the urban
>population to death by starvation, and lose also part of the farming
>population by hunger during the next year, the question remains
>unanswered: Who in all the world is then supposed to produce something
>valuable here?' The answer to this rhetorical question was soon to be
>provided by Himmler's men.

>"The sweep through the _Ostland_ in the fall of 1941 was only a warmup,
>but it settled a decisive issue. The Jews were at the disposal of the
>civil and military authorities only at the sufference of the SS and
>Police. The killers had first claim. (Ibid. p.247.)


>>         Stupid Russians.

>Hardly. Stupid Nazis. And stupid Moran for taken Hilberg, who can easily
>be verified, out of context.

>>                             =================
>> 
>> 
>> VI.          "The Destruction of the European Jewery"
>>                         Raul Hilberg    
>> 
>>         "On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
>> the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
>> in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent... 

>"...Across from the border of the incorporated territories, in the
>_Generalgouvernement_, Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw District proposed,
>as early as November 7, 1939, that the Warsaw Jews (who's number he
>estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated in a ghetto. Frank gave his
>immediate consent to the proposal, but the plan was premature. The
>administrative obsticles were formidable; the emigration policy was still
>in force; and the military offices in the city - to whom, in the meantime,
>the Jews were appealing for intervention - were apparently opposed to the
>whole idea. In February, 1940, the proposal was renewed by the SS and
>Police, only to be opposed on administrative grounds by the civilian
>offices in Warsaw. But the project was far from dead." (_Destruction_,
>p.150.)

>> ...During the winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under 
>> Waldermar Schon, who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning...

>I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it is not.)
>The only mention of Scho"n in the index occurs on page 151 and reads:

>"...However, as an excuse for the establishment of of the [Warsaw] ghetto,
>the Jewish typhus cases were more important even than Jewish criminality
>and the Jewish drive for world power. In February, 1941, the chief of the
>Migration Section, in the Interior Division of the office of the Warsaw
>_Gouverneur_, Reichsamtsleiter Scho"n, listed three reasons for the
>ghettoization. His reasons, in order of importance, were the epidemics,
>Jewish black-market activity and price gouging, and 'political and moral'
>reasons. In March the Medical Division in the office of the Warsaw
>_Gouverneur_, in co-operation with the Propaganda Division of the
>district, launched a propaganda campaing directed at the Polish
>population. The two divisions had devised a slogan which they circulated
>on posters, in newspapers, in movies, and in schools. the slogan was
>'Jews-Lice-Typhus' (Juden-La"use-Fleckfieber)." (Ibid. p.151.)

>> ...The first idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank 
>> of the Vistula River, was turned down ... 

>I cannot find this text in _Destruction_. However, what Hilberg has to say
>on the formation of the Warsaw ghetto is instructive:

>"We need not discuss the details of the ghetto formation in Warsaw,
>because they are quite similar to the administrative measures which had
>been taken in Lodz..." (Ibid. p.151.)

>> ...on the ground that 80 percent of Warsaw's artisans were Jews
>>... and were indispensible ..."

>Again, I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it
>does not exist.) The only mention of arists (no mention of artisans) in
>the index occurs on page 58:

>"...When Goebbels, the party's propaganda chief, formed his Propaganda
>Ministry, he began to issue decrees. One of the first measures was the
>decree of October 4, 1933, which directed the newspapers to remove all
>non-Aryan editors. Other regulations which followed assured ouster of
>Jewish musicians, artists, writers, and so, by exluding them from the
>guilds ('chambers'). No artist could practice unless he was a member of
>one of the Goebbels-controlled guilds." (Ibid. p.58.)

>One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
>to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
>artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?

>> Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
>> Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistant"
>> in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
>> Either way - stupid Poles.

>Not at all. Hilberg makes no such claims. Moran, twisting and distorting
>Hilberg- not to mention fabricating quotes attributed to Hilberg out of
>whole cloth -does. 

>Case in point is this stupid innuendo about the White Russians.
>Gebietskommissar Carl was quoted as saying that: "White Russian mechanics
>were, 'so to speak, nonexistant." In other words, there weren't any
>around. Probably because the Nazis either killed them all, or they were in
>hiding, or they fled with the retreating Red Army. 

>> One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
>> Jews have in America. 

>Hardly. One _can_, however, wonder at the depths of intellectual depravity
>that Moran will plumb in his Jew-bashing. So far the abyss of his
>anti-Semitism and hatred appears bottomless. 

>[Given the above pack of lies, deciet and distortions on Moran's part the
>rest of his mental sewage is mercifully snipped]

>Mark


>posted/e-mailed

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:08 PDT 1996
Article: 48605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 22:17:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4rk4gs$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r8r6h$p9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbn4p$rsi@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4ri0hv$11je@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  3:21:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4rbn4p$rsi@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell)
>said:

>>
>>	Giwer's at it again - he followed-up an article, just to paste a quote in
>>at the end - an irrelevant one too. Does he just fall asleep at the
>>keyboard or is he using a spambot?

>Spambot, and accomplices, almost as putrid as he.  Fear not, he will soon be
>gone.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

	Guess what?  I found a gas chamber in the old Reich.  I have also found
powdered cyanide.  

"Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes.
Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve to
regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal smoke.
>From  the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory."

IMT XXX - p.470. 

	Amazing what you can find if you look around.  

	And holohuggers are going to believe it.  





>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

>  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:09 PDT 1996
Article: 48615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 22:53:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4rk6jj$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rcvl0$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net> <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4rjd51$phn@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  3:56:51 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>	"Off topic". Thats the new thing Stein is trying. Green is on to
>>>this "off topic" topic also. It so rediculous. Typical. The usual. 
>>>	The facts are Nizkor and all the rest of their amen corner, or
>>>vice versa are obsessed with "hate" groups.
>>>	These persons would like to play a game. 
>>
>>	There is clearly no consistency in their position.

>    No, there is no consistency in your position.  If you want to get the
>newsgroup back on track as you define the track, I will point out that you
>are being inconsistent and hypocritical when you post articles off what
>you have declared is the track.

>    "Hypocrisy is not a nice thing to see." - Matt Giwer

	I have noticed little progress, particularly in McFly's continuing
effort to keep the conference at the personal insult level.  

>>They feel they can introduce Stormfront yet not let the JDL be
>>introduced.  This is truly a Jewish thing.

>    Mr. Giwer feels he can call for the newsgroup to get back on track yet
>not stay on track himself.  This is truly a trollish thing.  Though as I
>showed yesterday, Mr. Giwer is a very incompetent troll - he thought he
>was showing how much smarter he was than the rest of us with the Rudenko
>thing, but he botched his wording so as to make it false, and lied about
>my statements, which were true.  All he managed to show was what a truly
>brainless fish he is.

	Nor have I seen much contribution on the part of you folks when there
are constant references to neo-nazis.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:10 PDT 1996
Article: 48619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 01:09:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4rkej7$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31cffa2b.5860058@news.pacificnet.net>  <4rc3bg$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4rf8va$fs9@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rhc7q$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  6:13:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>We are discussing this quote, which Giwer posted after cut'n'pasting
>it from a denier web page in mid-June:

>   " It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>   built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>   people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>   then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>   way; there they were killed. "
>   
>   IMT VII - p.576-577. 

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>> It's more likely that he is trying to pawn off an indictment
>> statement as "evidence" again... let us see.. nope... it isn't
>> evidence... let's keep looking... is it judgement?  ....no, it
>> isn't judgement.... hmmmm... what could it be?

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com replied:

>>  As you know I have not claimed it as evidence.  

>That's essentially true, if one assumes that Giwer uses the curious
>revisionist definition of "evidence" which excludes eyewitness
>testimony.  Because he did refer to it as precisely that, back in
>mid-June, in <4pvtta$cph@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>:

	I may have referred to is as evidence of the type of testimony that was
provided.  If otherwise, I was in error.  It is not evidence.  

>> Here I PROVE by eyewitness
>> testimony that people were electrocute by those mean old Nazis...

>It was not, of course, eyewitness testimony.  But John Morris has
>already pointed that out in <31c4d24b.22688970@news.srv.ualberta.ca>.
>Mr. Giwer has shown a strange reluctance to actually discuss this
>"eyewitness testimony" which he has posted, or to answer any of the
>questions which have been posted to him about it.  All he does it
>repeat that he has "proved" something and that "It is one more thing
>in the league as your gassing stories."

>If Mr. Giwer is truly interested in discussion, I presume he will
>now enter into this discussion by explaining why he thinks it is "in
>the same league" -- after all, evidence for gassing includes
>eyewitness testimony, which this is not.  (And confessions, and
>physical evidence as well, but that's beside the point here.)

>Well, Mr. Giwer?  I'd like to discuss this with you.  Are you game?

	Begin.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48622 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 01:54:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4rkh8o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4qn3en$l70@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  6:58:48 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>> 
>> >Oh, my. Such bitterness....
>[etc.]

>> Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
>> verifying my identity

>Um, "mistress"?

>That's awfully damn insulting, 

	Would you prefer to both be called Webcritters or Webrats?  

as I expect you know, since Giwer has
>stated repeatedly that the woman in question only has her job by virtue
>of bedding a couple of other people (me, for one).  

	Only McVay, only one, not you.  

	I made that inference from neither of you and particularly her knowing
next to nothing about the HTML.  It was reinforced when Stein was the
one who had to do the content based file search when neither of the
Webrats were able to do so.  

You've managed to
>pointedly and, perhaps you think cleverly, underscore that insult.
>I'm afraid I'm not amused.

>I expect crap like that from Giwer -- he's only trolling after all --
>but I didn't expect it from you, Ehrlich.

>> You can go ahead and
>> pat yourself on the back that she is on your side.
>> 
>> Oh, you think I left because she called me _names_?  Do you think I have
>> any doubts about the rigid humorlessness of the conventionalists herein,
>[etc.]

>If you thought this was a joke, it's not very funny.  If this reveals
>me to be "humorless" and "rigid," so be it.

	Rather, very silly.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:12 PDT 1996
Article: 48623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 02:00:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4rkhjq$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  7:04:42 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article ,
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>> 
>> >[etc.]
>> >
>> >> Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
>> >> verifying my identity
>> >
>> >Um, "mistress"?
>> >
>> >That's awfully damn insulting, as I expect you know, since Giwer has
>> >stated repeatedly that the woman in question only has her job by virtue
>> >of bedding a couple of other people (me, for one).  You've managed to
>> >pointedly and, perhaps you think cleverly, underscore that insult.
>> >I'm afraid I'm not amused.
>> >
>> >I expect crap like that from Giwer -- he's only trolling after all --
>> >but I didn't expect it from you, Ehrlich.
>> 
>> Jamie, this is totally ridiculous.  I am insinuating nothing of the kind,
>> in this by now week old post.  

>Bullshit. You were acting like a petulant six year-old. 

>> The fact is:  you, a male, are a *Co-webmaster*.  Hilary, a female, is the 
>> same thing.  To _me_ to call a female a *Co-webmaster* violates common
>sense gender titles.  That is why I called her *Co-webmistress.*  Nothing
>more.

>Bullshit. Your sexist innuendo in quite clear. Obviously a by-product of
>too much kibbitzing with the Troll. 

>> I think we are getting pretty bad if we start suggesting things about each
>> other's private lives.  

>Indeed. You, sir, by your own words then, are "getting pretty bad."

>>I agree that it should stop.  Therefore, Matt should stop making remarks
>about >Hilary's private life, and all the rest of you can stop making
>cracks about >Matt's.

>And you should apologize to Ms. Ostrov for being a sexist cad. 

	Cad?  Fascinating that you should use a word that goes back to a time
when the terms master and mistress (as in of the house) were in everyday
use.  

	Also it is unclear what form of the word in current use you are
objecting to.  There are two uses of the word that may apply to the
McVay-Ostrov relationship.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:13 PDT 1996
Article: 48624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 02:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4r1kv7$bq8@news.enter.net> <4r4lun$p77@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4r9fai$ckh@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4rahpi$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rhol0$h7s@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  7:29:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>>As I have some difficulties with your slang, I didn't first understood
>>>what you told with "mess of psyrinks". All the psychiatrists that I
>>>can poll are among the firsts classified in the contests for the
>>>hospitals (for example, 5, 8 or 11 among 260). The most part of the
>>>French psychiatrists pass this examination. These that I know are
>>>always classified in the first quarter.

>>>But this pedigree has nothing to do with your claim: that men can't
>>>scream only in fear of death. It is ridiculous, and it remains
>>>ridiculous. I don't find you very likeable, but since I had my own
>>>experience, I hope that you will never try it yourself.

>>	I have serious problems with your restatement also.  I did not say can
>>not anything.  I said do not.  I have no idea what you are trying to say
>>with "only in fear of".

>Try "only when afraid of dying" instead of "only in fear of death". Is
>it clearer?

>>But primarily, I was questioning that you "polled" anyone and implying
>>that you made it up.  

>>Is that clear enough?

>Yes. I had my own experience of a such situation, but I'm lying. I
>told you to read the book from the French headsman in 1792, and
>another books from this time, but you wan't. I told you to see the TV
>reports 1/4h after the Manchester's bombing, but you didn't see what I
>saw. The testimonies from the WWII are more recent, but faked. I can
>ask a dozen of psychiatrists if it is likely (that a man will scream
>when afraid of dying), but what I will report will be made up.

>It's very clear. You don't have even the beginning of an argument. You
>have only an opinion and use it to tell that all the testimonies of
>the gassings (of men) are faked. On the top, you don't know if a
>gassing was painful after some seconds for the victims.

	And all of this simply because I noted the ready accessability of a
dozen psychologists to poll?  

	You don't even realize that little girls practice screaming.  

	You don't even realize that most men know as much about how to scream as
how to yodel.  

	Conduct an experiment.  Scream.  Do you think you are suddenly going to
learn the technique?  Or perhaps you has several sisters and learned
young.  

	



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:14 PDT 1996
Article: 48627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 03:10:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4rklms$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4rak3r$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rhdq3$b2m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 05  8:14:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>: It appears that you are agreeing with me that I am right about there
>: being no bolt holes on the roof.

>: What is amazing is that no one has ever found the bolt holes in the
>: floor necessary to sustain your story that there was a porous
>: column.  No bolt holes equals no columns.  Find some bolt holes and
>: you will have the pleasure of seeing me eat my words!

>Let's see -- we all agree that, if there are bolt holes there, the bolt
>holes would be on the floor, directly underneath the four evenly-spaced
>insertion holes on the roof.

>We may disagree about whether those four holes are there, but we can
>all point to those four evenly-spaced locations, without much problem.

>The question before you, Ceacaa, is:

>Is there any way we could observe those four places on the floor?

	He may or may not have an answer but I have been directed to at least
one picture of the collapsed roof on Nizkor.  It all appears to have
fallen into the room; no expulsion from the area.  From that give me a
crane, a crew of ten and two weeks and I will have the roof
reconstructed on the ground like a jigsaw puzzle along side the walls
and floor.

	Then you can have the pros go in to collect the unaccounted for debris.
Given the holes in the roof they will know within a few feet of where to
look for bolts in the floor.  

	I have read of much greater effort expended on matters of far less
interest than this.  Given the current state of the Polish economy I
would not be suprised to be able to do the part I describe for under
$20,000.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:15 PDT 1996
Article: 48628 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 03:13:59 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>>how to stop it all?  

>    If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
>lying and stop trolling.  That is _my_ description of how to stop it all. 
>It is that simple.

>    Especially since you are not even competent at trolling.  Words have
>meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
>Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess.  And you misread and lied about my
>statements.  Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
>seriously think it will help.

	Care do name his book that I am referring to?  

>    Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well. 
>Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
>what features.  You obviously haven't got it right yet.  Were you in the
>"slow readers" group as a child?  When you get your facts straight, even
>as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
>buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
>subject.

	I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
hear as part of my posts on the subject.  If you disagree with those on
Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.  

	It would be a first.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:16 PDT 1996
Article: 48630 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 03:26:43 GMT
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>> >> whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>> >> being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>> >> irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters
>> >> of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational discourse
>> >> with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.
>> 
>> >Remember, acceptance is only the first step...
>> 
>>         Remember that this is another example of you holohuggers supporting
>> Marduk and will not be forgotten.

>Remeber that this is yet another example of Giwer not having a sense
>of humor...or even unreasonable facsimile thereof.

	You folks didn't seem to exhibit much sense of humor on several that I
have posted.  So what is the difference?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 08:01:17 PDT 1996
Article: 48631 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 03:43:43 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

># Anyone want to explain this one? 

>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]

>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing? 
>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange" 
>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?

	Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.  

>If the fact that there are erroneous reports about the
>Holocaust implies it never took place, so, by the same logic,
>Dresden was never bombed, and WW2 never took place.

>There are erroneous reports about the death camps; they were
>authored by Poles who spied on them. As opposed to what Giwer
>claims, these reports were indeed written by members of the 
>Polish underground who spied on the camps. Some of these
>reports contain errors about the methods used to kill the
>victims. After all, these Polish spies were not given a guided 
>tour of the camps and the gas chambers.

>Giwer can only keep posting these reports, dozens of time a
>day. Usually, he simply appends them to the end of an article
>he is "responding" to, his only "response" being the report.
>He cannot do anything else (save for calling people "pig",
>"dumb fuck", "fat broad", "piece of shit", etc).

	Rather you folks do know the difference between physical evidence and
testimony yet you refuse to make the distinction regarding your precious
gassings.  

>A rational person would realize that the more accurate testimony
>on these camps is from the SS-men who built them and who ran
>the death machinery with their own hands, as well as from the
>surviving "sonderkommando" members. 

	Who at Belsen claim it was a mass extermination camp by any means?  Not
your historians of course.  They clearly reject the findings of
thousands of people involved in the war crimes trials in their efforts
to sanitize the findings of the thousands of people involved in those
trials.

	And then as Anne Frank and her father were in the infirmary at Belsec,
why was there an infirmary for the inmates in the first place?  

>Giwer will keep posting the erroneous reports, dozens of times 
>a day; this is all a person of his intelligence can do. But he
>must realize that his position is equivalent to the position of
>someone who claims that, because of such erroneous testimonies
>about Dresden as mentioned above, the city was never bombed. 

	There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.

	There is no physical evidence of mass extermination by any means at
Belsen.  

	You know the difference.  It is simply inconvenient for you to admit to
the difference.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 11:40:15 PDT 1996
Article: 64772 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: A TRICKY VIPER...
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:12:27 GMT
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Michael  Perin  wrote:

>Dear Luke,

>I saw a segment of C-SPAN around the middle of June when a caller from  
>Georgia reported a strange incident that she had seen in her local paper 
>relative to the Militia issue. She said that it was reported in her paper 
>that two supposed Militia members who had been arrested a few months 
>earlier because they had been planning to blow up federal buildings, were 
>in fact, BATF/FBI agents, and that the whole thing was a set up hoax!
>Although the arrests of these hoaxsters made the headlines all accross the 
>country, the fact that they were federal agents posing as Militia members 
>in order to discredit the Militia movement was completely ignored by the 
>national media. 

	And what has come out about this "Viper Militia" so far does not make
much sense.  

	First off to have a conspiracy in criminal law there must also be an
overt act.  There was no overt act and it is unclear how they are going
to make a case that they act to prevent an immediate overt act.

	Second, there is a serious question as to whether this was an a
pro-active plan or a reactive plan for a different future.  What is
unclear is why there would be plans to deal with certain buildings
without a plan as to what to demand for the return of the buildings.  It
is reminiscent of Goldfinger, the movie, take all the buildings you
want, it is a matter of time before the Army, Navy, Marines and Air
Force make you give them back.  

	If course there is also the "insanity" explanation but at the moment a
well organized conspiracy and what we are hearing do not match in the
least.  	






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 11:46:25 PDT 1996
Article: 87751 of alt.censorship
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, for the last time
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:54:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:


>    Oh, hell with it, let's end the game.

>In article <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>> wrote:
>>>>	There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>>>>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>>>>Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>>>>and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.

>    Now I will point out the fact that Matt lied here.

>    I never said that I found no _mention_.  My precise words (and my
>words are almost always _precise_) were:


>Date:         1996/06/12

>    Not even Altavista can find what does not exist.  But you know that.
>I searched for all files mentioning "Rudenko" to look for verification of
>the story that Rudenko lost the first case against Hoess, which you said
>you found on Nizkor.  No such file.


>Date:         1996/06/20

>    However, I have an account on Nizkor, and I _can_ search the files by
>content.  When Giwer claimed that there was a file on Nizkor saying that
>Rudenko lost one case against Hoess for lack of evidence, I did a
>case-insensitive search on "Ruden" and "enko" (to catch any line breaks in
>the middle of the word).  No file which turned up in that search matched
>Giwer's description of what he had read.

>    Please keep the precise words I used in mind.  They are important,
>because (as Mr. Giwer has told us) words have meanings.

	There are several regular participants here who know exactly where those
reports have to be on Nizkor if Nizkor is not censored.  There are
irregular participants here who know the exact same thing.  

	How many more riddles do you folks need?

	How about this one.

	When I first posted on the claim, I said it was there once.  The second
time I posted the claim, I said it was there twice.  How do I know?  

	Think about it.  

>>	That is your assumption.  
>>
>>	The following is a riddle.  
>>
>>	I did not originally read it there but I know it is there.  How do I
>>know?  

>    Because it is in your own reposts of Al Gentile's articles, of course,
>and it was archived.  I knew that before I wrote my previous article.
>But I know something else you don't know.

	But it was not found there in a content based search--as you said.  So
where is it really?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48647 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acronym or paupacy?  You decide.  (Or:  how to beat Giwer)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:18:04 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>[Quote from Morgen's testimony]

># By means of a special procedure... they were burned in the 
># open air without the use of fuel."

>Has it ever occurred to you that he meant "fuel", as in
>"gasoline", and that he actually meant that wood was used
>for the burning process?

	I am unaware of anyone in this reality who would refer to wood as a
"special procedure."  Apparently you are.  

>Doesn't part of the original excerpt, which you seem to have 
>intentionally deleted, credit Wirth with the method of burning, 
>and therefore this supports the assumption that he really meant 
>that wood was being used - because that's how corpses were burned
>in the camps of which Wirth was in charge?

	Why do you not post then ENTIRE excerpt since you have it in front of
you?  You don't?  Why am I not surprised?  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:50 PDT 1996
Article: 48649 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:48:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

># There appears to have been no orders against taking
># the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are
># excludable as being nonspecific to the gassing issue.

>There were orders against taking photographs in the "Operation
>Reinhard" camps. There were also orders against taking 
>photographs during the mass shootings by the "Einsatzgruppen". 

>Now, the 163-IQ'ed Giwer will claim to a contradiction, because
>there are actually some such photographs. That's true. At least
>a few were taken in secrecy or in violation of the order, and
>at least one SS-man (Max Taubner) stood trial for taking such
>photographs.

	Nice try but It is quite clear that I am talking about your mass
extermination by gassing facilities within the camps.

># I have no idea what more to tell you folks about what
># constitutes physical evidence.  It appears quite obvious to me.  

>The 163-IQ man has yet failed to provide any physical evidence
>for WW2 of the type he demands for the Holocaust. Using his
>"methods", one can "prove" that WW2 never took place.

	I have limited my statements to Dresden and have in fact demonstrated
the chain of physical evidence.  But you know that.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:51 PDT 1996
Article: 48664 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TRANSIT CAMPS
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 05:13:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References:  
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jeffrey  wrote:

># Sobibor was also designated a transit camp [cf Hilberg] and
># [IMHO] so were Treblinka, Belzec, and Chelmno.

>Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka
>[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

		BUT, when a holohugger does it, it is NOT  


Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:51 PDT 1996
Article: 48670 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:33:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4resu3$dpn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>> In article , 
>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>> >"...I have cotrol of control..."?
>> >Sounds like Mr. Giwer is a bit more confused than usual.
>> 
>> Don't you believe it! The troll is as confused as he normally
>> is.
>> 
>> I think you should apologize.

>Sure, Ken, whatever you say.
> 
>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>I hereby apologize for stating you were more confused than usual. You
>were, I assume, just your basic-confused self.
> 
>Gee. And they say we never admit our mistakes!
> 
>Sara

	It is unclear what a schwarte is doing pointing here.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48671 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What are your views of Jews?
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:34:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4rg61m$p7h@news.ios.com>, Mary Kravits 
>wrote:

>>  A Jew is Gods choosen one. 
> 
>Possessive. God's.
> 
>Chosen, not choosen.

	Self-annointed.  There was no Moses.  

>> Irsael is the God's choosen country and

>I believe the country you are referring to is Israel.

	Taken by genocidal warfare.  
 
>Again, it is chosen, not choosen.

>> Jeruslam will be the capital of the world.
> 
>I believe the city you are referring to is Jerusalem.
> 
>Whether you're sincere or a troller, your grammar and spelling are atrocious.
> 
>Sara

>-- 
>"A perfect writer would make words sing, dance, kiss, do the male and female act, bear children, weep, bleed, rage, steal, stab, fire cannon, steer ships, sack cities, charge with cavalry or infantry, or do any thing, that man or woman or the natural powers can do."
>     Walt Whitman




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:53 PDT 1996
Article: 48672 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What in the world are Jews doing bowing to white christian trash ?
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 04:43:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
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References: <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com> 
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com>, Mary Kravits 
>wrote:

>>  I though we all understood, NO DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST ! We are Jews not 
>> goyem,so stop going down to their level. Don't beg them for 
>> understanding. They are nothing more than anti Semetic animals. The 
>> germans scum are the lowest of the bunch. Tell them to take their filthy 
>> bible,the cross and jesus(the bastard) and shove them up their aryan 
>> asses.
> 
>Mary:
> 
>This group is called alt. revisionism. It is for the discussion of
>revisionism. If you do not wish to participate in this discussion, don't
>read it. Or post here.
> 
>If you have something constructive to say about the Holocaust, please post it.
> 
>Many more people participate in this discussion besides Jews and Germans.
>And personally, I believe calling Jesus a bastard is a stain on OUR
>religion, not theirs.
 
>respectfully,
>Sara
> 
>P.S. Hey, Giwer & Moran! Here are two jews DISAGREEING!!!

	About time

>-- 
>"A perfect writer would make words sing, dance, kiss, do the male and female act, bear children, weep, bleed, rage, steal, stab, fire cannon, steer ships, sack cities, charge with cavalry or infantry, or do any thing, that man or woman or the natural powers can do."
>     Walt Whitman




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:54 PDT 1996
Article: 48674 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:25:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>Krema I in Auschwitz
>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>-------------------------------------------------------------
> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.

	What an asshole.  We know that one "whiff" causes immediate
unconsciousness.

	Why are you introducing this nonsense?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:54 PDT 1996
Article: 48676 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Muench Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:27:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench 
>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>VIII, p. 313-321]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

>A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
>   extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
>   that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
>   considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
>   time, because the facts that were being described seemed too 
>   terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
>   convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated, 
>   I was very much shaken emotionally.



Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:55 PDT 1996
Article: 48677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:28:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:



>Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler  
>[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
>and Company, 1949, p. 714-715]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, but at 
>no time did I take part in the selection of prisoners who were to go to
>the gas chambers and then be cremated. Whilst I was there selection of
>prisoners for the gas chambers was done by Dr. Klein, Dr. Mengele and
>other young doctors whose names I do not know. I have attended these
>parades, but my job was merely to keep order. Often women were paraded
>naked in front of the doctors and persons selected by the doctors were
>sent to the gas chamber.

> .
> .
> .

>I made many complaints to Hoess about the way people were being sent to
>the gas chamber, but I was told it was not my business.

>


>-Danny Keren.

Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48683 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 05:40:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com>
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Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-

>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96

>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>____________________________________________________________________

>	As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley 
>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) 
>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web.  The Bradley R. Smith 
>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially 
>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.

	It was an appropriate time for the site to be censored.  It demonstrates
the intentions of the owners are contrary to the founding principles of
the United States.  

	Of course individuals have a right to do what they want.  It is their
choice.  It is simply an example of the degradation of constitutional
principles upon which the country was founded.  

	May they rot in hell.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48685 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:48:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
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References: <31a31339.3502127@news.pacificnet.net> <4nvrmj$5if@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4rk32d$6js@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) and Moran wrote:

>>>	As far as Treblinka is concerned, there is nothing to the story
>>>than "eyewitness testimony". No photographs or anything. The Treblinka
>>>chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp was built
>>>one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the next year
>>>demolished by the Germans the next year, and was nothing more than a
>>>tree farm the next year.

>No photographs ? Shit. I have some photos from the Kurt Frantz Album,
>an excavator at work, aso. It is worth to trash ? Frantz was sentenced
>to life emprisonment (Dusseldorf) in 64.

	Sorry about that.  It does not satisfy the criteria.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48687 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CODOH shut down
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 07:05:46 GMT
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	No organization can both claim to desire common carrier status as an ISP
and censor what they carry.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48692 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 07:16:33 GMT
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Equinox  wrote:

>X-Mozilla-Status: 0801
>X-Mozilla-News-Host: news
>Message-ID: <31DCDA7C.170C@buffnet.net>
>Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 02:03:56 -0700
>From: Equinox 
>Organization: @Home
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>CC: equinox@buffnet.net
>Subject: NO nerve gas?
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Hi There,
>When I was in the Army I remember them teaching us about Nerve Gas and
>one Sargeant told me that our VX was based on Nazi nerve gases 
>developed from insecticides before WWII. I also remember reading about
>chemical warfare in the library. Anyway,
>the book mentioned that Hitler did NOT use the Reich's stores of
>Nerve Gas on advancing Communist and Allied soldiers (nor on England
>with the V2) because he feared for the German people and what the
>Allies would do in retaliation. As a side note, maybe this was the
>'secret weapon' that Geobbles (?) kept yelling about near the end. 
>My question is this; how can anyone doubt the extensive stocks of
>nerve gas in the Nazi inventory? I know that the U.S. Army took alot
>of advanced (for the time) technology out of Germany after they
>conquered the Nazis, in fact our entire space program was based on
>their Rocket technology and personnel. It makes sense that the U.S.
>also got a hold of this nerve gas and in the early days of the Cold
>War developed it further to counter a perceived Communist threat of 
>the same. There seems to be just too much evidence that the Nazi's
>developed or took over development of chemicals that can kill with
>one drop. How can this be explained away?

	It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.

	But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
likely agent.  

	When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
collapsed.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48695 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Horrible Racist Comic At WWW.RESIST.COM
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 07:08:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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patrickc@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote:

>In article <4retct$dog@news.campus.mci.net>, daniel11@appstate.campus.mci.net (Daniel Clinton) wrote:

>>See, the US has this thing called the First Amendment. It says that
>>anybody who has a viewpoint is entitled to express it any damn way
>>they choose.

>The First Amendment prohibited destructive lying from its very beginning. That 
>makes any racist propaganda calling for violence illegal.

	The 1st Amendment prohibits no such thing.

>Libel and slander are in the criminal code. You could take racists to court 
>for slandering you.

	Unlike England and other backward countries, the truth is an absolute
defense in the US.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 20:52:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48765 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:15:43 GMT
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On 06 Jul 96 15:07:12, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[To Alec Grynspan] [Wed 03 Jul 96 15:31][Sat 06 Jul 96 05:36][0]*>

> >> That a witness saw live people carted in, saw dead bodies come
> >> out and didn't see the cause of death? He speculates on the
> >> cause, convinces himself and that is written down in a book.

> mnc>     What words in that statement indicates speculation to you?

>Oh good grief! Reread and try again.

>>         Anyone want to explain this one?
>> 
>> " It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>> people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>> then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>> way; there they were killed. "

	There it is again.  What words indicate speculation to you?  Those are
declarative sentences.  

> mnc>     What kind of "mass extermination" was supposed to have been
> mnc> going on at Belsen in 1942 or ever for that matter?

>Must we repeat everything, Matt? Don't waste time on
>ground-shifting. Leave that for the deniers.

	Sorry but there is no longer a claim of any mass extermination at
Belsen.  It is the holohuggers who have shifted on this one.  

> >> Gassings were reported and representatives were begging the
> >> American military to bomb the chambers during the war.

> mnc>     The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines
> mnc> cut so that no more people could be sent there and so the food
> mnc> would be cut off so those already there would starve.

>Utter nonsense. Go read "Abandonment of the Jews" and follow up on
>the references. I'm still BUSY (today is my son's birthday - the big
>ONE-OH) so you have time.

	Sorry about that but that is what I heard the last time this was brought
up.  	

> >> account that 2 bombs would have put the chambers out of
> >> commission,

> mnc>     Four for Birkenau alone according to discussions in this NG
> mnc> but then laser guidance was not available in those days.

>Two of the biggies or half a dozen smaller ones. They flew right
>over the chambers on the way to making craters of some plants
>nearby. The films show an illusion of the bomb falling on the
>chambers but that was due to the fact that the bomb was moving
>forward at the same speed as the bomber. They were that close!

	Alec, you have a lot to learn about iron bombs and their rather minimal
accuracy.  What you suggest is clearly impossible.  I have no idea who
told you otherwise.  I would suggest you look into the reason for the
development of smart bombs in the first place.  

> >> was a strategically poor move and there are bombsight photos of
> >> the planes passing over the gas chambers on their way to other
> >> targets.

> mnc>     You are the only person who has ever made such a claim.  The
> mnc> ones that Nizkor carries of Birkenau show no such activity when
> mnc> such activity should have been at its peak -- depending upon

>Matt, the films were actually shown on TV in prime time! I've seen
>them there several times, as well as elsewhere. Pay attention!

	Which prime time news could that have been?  From 10,000 feet or so you
are actually seeing people and activity?  It is a shame Nizkor has not
come across those pictures.  They have none of them.  

> >> How can I argue with you?  It would be like fighting an unarmed
> >> man!

> >> Get yourself together, Matt! I don't want to shoot fish in a
> >> barrel!

> mnc>     Again you make claims but they are patently contrary to what
> mnc> is available to everyone here, and then you declare victory.

>No pouting! Act like an adult. Look it up! You have the clues.

	I have looked into it.  Your claims are rather unique in the matter.  No
one else here has made them either.  I find this quite surprising.  	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 22:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:30:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Thu, 04 Jul 1996 09:25:12 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>         The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines cut so that
>> no more people could be sent there and so the food would be cut off so
>> those already there would starve.

>Non-sequitur, Matt. please do try to stay with the argument this time. I
>really don't want to wte time on zig-zags.

	I am telling you what has been posted here.  The source was supposed to
be The Abandonment of the Jews.  According to the previous posts the
targets they wanted to be hit were the rail lines.  

>>         Four for Birkenau alone according to discussions in this NG but then
>> laser guidance was not available in those days.

>More non-sequiturs. Wake up, Matt! You can do better.

	The claim here is that there were four gas chambers at Birkenau.  There
have been long discussions even as to the numbering of them and their
design features.  You are the first person to claim there were only two.
The rest agree there were four.  And, by your assumption, all the smart
bomb technology was a tax payer rip off as dumb iron bombs could do the
same thing.  

>> the American military said it
>> >was a strategically poor move and there are bombsight photos of the
>> >planes passing over the gas chambers on their way to other targets.
>> 
>>         You are the only person who has ever made such a claim.  The ones that
>> Nizkor carries of Birkenau show no such activity when such activity
>> should have been at its peak -- depending upon which "pharmacist" you
>> choose to believe.

>I'm not talking about Nizkor, Matt. If you don't do any research on a
>subject, other than browse web pages, how can we possibly debate or
>discuss? Please do some intensive upgrading at your library.

	Actually you are making claims contrary to those of the
exterminationists here.  Sorry about that.  Perhaps you should have
researched the position of those you appear to be supporting before you
started supporting them.  

	Talking about shifting grounds, I have often suggested they get together
and come up with a single, consistent story for me to address.  You are
now doing that to me in that you have a story that is different from
what anything the rest of them have been saying.  So may I make the same
suggestion to you, that you get together with them and settle upon a
single story.  

>> >Really, Matt, none of this is news! We've already been over that in
>> >other places and even here!
>> 
>> >Your memory is patently bad, but this is getting ridiculous. It goes
>> >beyond memory!
>> 
>> >How can I argue with you?  It would be like fighting an unarmed man!
>> 
>> >Get yourself together, Matt! I don't want to shoot fish in a barrel!
>> 
>>         Again you make claims but they are patently contrary to what is
>> available to everyone here, and then you declare victory.

>(*SIGH*) They argue the same subset of data repeatedly, because that is
>what their opponents argue. Do you just want to be a more voluble Huber,
>or do you want to do some research!

>I could declare victory based on your patently poor grasp of the topic
>but you can use the time to get the info together for a better
>challenge.

>You are just being repetitive - a sign of a lack of information, Matt.

	You also disagree with the documents on Nizkor.  

	You are simply reciting another version of the stories that have been
told here over and over.  But it is a markedly different version.  

>I'm still too busy to focus more than a minute fraction of my time on
>you. Surely you can take advantage of that to get rebuttal material
>together.

>Be the first revisionist with *NEW* material, Matt! Don't just rehash
>what others have done. For pete's sake! My mother-in-law can parrot
>reams of data but can't come up with an independent conclusion because
>she has the intelligence of a brick!

>Now hi thyself to a library and return to argue with knowledge and
>reason!

	I can't say you are the first holohugger with new material but you
present so much of it at once.  For example only two gas chambers at
Birkenau.  And I would be interested in you pointing out what I have
said that is a simple rehash.  It does not appear you have read enough
of what has been posted in this conference to know what anyone on any
side has said.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:45 PDT 1996
Article: 48784 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:08:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4rguel$auj@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4rmbft$2be@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rmevt$5qm@elaine41.Stanford.EDU>
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On 6 Jul 1996 12:32:13 -0700, redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard
James Green) wrote:

>Mr. Ehrlich,

>Your defense of Matt Giwer is simply appalling.  I find it hard to
>believe that any reasonable person of goodwill could make the statements
>that you've made about Matt Giwer. Luckily, your statements about Matt
>Giwer are on file at Nizkor.

	What is "lucky" about that?  Please explain.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:46 PDT 1996
Article: 48785 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben's Auschwitz Diet...
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:22:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
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On 6 Jul 1996 04:00:08 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/german/farben.ig farben.002
>Last-modified: 1993/10/24
>See Also: holocaust diet.01

>   I.G. Auschwitz: I.G. Farben's Buna (synthetic rubber) division, built
>   near the site of the Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II concentration
>   camps. (Farben eventually built their own corporate concentration
>   camp at the site, to eliminate the need to march prisoners several
>   miles to and from the Buna plant every day, as had been the practice.
>   It was known as Monowitz, and had a sign over the gate which read
>   "Arbeit Macht Frei.")

>[Editor's note: I understand that the "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign can be seen
>today over the gate at Auschwitz I - this raises the question of whether or
>not there were more than one, or if the one the author mentions was moved to
>Auschwitz I at a later date, or if the author was simply incorrect. knm]

>   "Starvation was a permanent guest at Auschwitz.  The diet fed to I.G.
>   Auschwitz inmates, which included the famous 'Buna Soup' - a
>   nutritional aid not available to other prisoners - resulted in an
>   average weight loss for each individual of about six and a half to
>   nine pounds a week.  At the end of a month, the change in the
>   prisoner's appearance was marked; at the end of two months, the
>   inmates were not recognizable except as caricatures formed of skin,
>   bones, and practically no flesh; after three months, they were either
>   dead or so unfit for work that they were marked for release to the
>   gas chambers at Birkenau.  Two physicians who studied the effect of
>   the I.G.  diet on the inmates noticed that 'the normally nourished
>   prisoner at Buna could make up the deficiency by his own body for a
>   period of three months....The prisoners were condemned to burn up
>   their own body weight while working and, providing no infections
>   occurred, finally died of exhaustion.'"   others - typical SS Auschwitz punishment reports> (Borkin, 125)


>                            Work Cited

>   Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York: 
>   The Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company. 

	It is rather laughable that anyone would believe this kind of story.  

	It is like some innocent child hearing his Marine father using a
nickname for some dish from the slop chute at Quantico and concocting a
horror story around it.  "They  make my Daddy eat plastic pizza and then
he got sick and died."  

	But then there were secret synthetic foods made by the plant that did
nothing more than simply not feeding people would do.  

	Even more innocently naive the people who believe such stories with such
great fervor.  Yad Vashem needs to grow up and smell the Sugar Puffs.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:46 PDT 1996
Article: 48797 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They probably thought they were being inoculated'
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:08:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 14:00:57 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>(Four Polish witnesses, three of them doctors, and two SS men, testify
>>about murder with phenol injections in Auschwitz. Among the murdered
>>were 120 children from the village of Zamosc).
>>
>>All the following testimonies are excerpted from "Auschwitz: the
>>Proceedings Against Mulka and Others" by Bernd Nauman. The SS men
>>who usually did the killing were Hantl, Scherpe, and Klehr (who also
>>participated in the gassing operations).
>>
>>Testimony of Professor Fejkiel from Cracow (Poland) who was arrested by 
>>the Nazis and imprisoned in Auschwitz between October 1940 and January
>>1945 (p. 153-4):
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------                                       
>>The witness reports that the experiments to kill prisoners with 
>>injections were begun in 1942.
>>
>>"First they tried benzine, but that turned out to be impractical. I
>>know of a case where death did not occur for forty-five minutes. They
>>looked for a quicker method. The second medium was hydrogen; then came
>>phenolic acid".
>	These Germans always seem to have to experiment with the most
>basic of procedures and substances, like when they were trying to
>figure out how much Zyklon B would have to used.

	And all the while never thinking of a simple air bubble to cause an
embolism and heart failure, death in five minutes.  Stupid Germans.  

	Nah, rather, "go out and get me some hydrogen gas.  Let's try that
first."    

	"So what did he come back with?  A 5 kilo cylinder of the stuff.  Blew
the plunger out of five hypos before I got the trick of filling it
right."  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:47 PDT 1996
Article: 48798 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Collective Guilt
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:08:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 05:38:05 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4qvapu$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:


>>         In fact his policy grew from his experience commanding the garrison at
>> Vicksberg.  There he became appalled by the civilian response to his
>> good treatment of civilians in return for their pledge of peacefulness.
>> His troops were being attacked whenever they were found alone or in
>> small groups.  He also found they were being shot in the stomach when
>> possible to cause a lingering and painful death.  
>> 
>>         It was with that experience that he decided on a policy of
>bringing the
>> actual horrors of war to civilians.  Of course since the North wrote
>> most of the history of the war, his policy was told in a better light.  

>Interesting statements. Where did you get the idea that "scorched earth"
>came from Vicksburg? (Note spelling.) 

	When all else fails ...  

It just so happens that I'm reading
>a few books on the very subject right now, and NONE of them cone to the
>same conclusion that you do.
> 
>Grant's decision to "wage war upon the population" was made long before
>the seige at Vicksburg.
> 
>He who asserts must prove, Mr. Giwer. Where did the above information come from?

	The idea of "waging war on the population" came from you.  What I am
talking about came from his own writings, mainly in letters.  They are
as I have recounted.  Get better books and ignore the coincidence.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:48 PDT 1996
Article: 48799 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Studies XVI:  Operation Reinhard (8/11)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:08:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Jul 1996 04:00:08 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs16.02
>Last-modified: 1993/03/29
>XRef: yad_vashem index

>                       YAD VASHEM STUDIES
>                              XVI
>                     Edited by Aharon Weiss

>                          YAD VASHEM
>           MARTYR'S AND HEROES' REMEMBRANCE AUTHORITY
>                        JERUSALEM 1984

>                    "Operation Reinhard": 
>       Extermination Camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka

>                         Yitzhak Arad 

>        Treblinka -- from July 23 until August 28, 1942 

	Spam at its most creatively gruesome.  

>   The procedure adopted upon the arrival of the trains was the same as
>   that in Sobibor: two German railroad workers, classified as being
>   reliable, took over the transport from the Treblinka station to the
>   extermination camp, a distance of 4 km.  The Pole Franciszek Zabecki
>   described the arrival of the deportation train from the Warsaw
>   ghetto: 

>      A small locomotive stood ready in the railroad station to
>      transport the first section of freight cars into the carnp.
>      Everything had been planned and prepared in advance.  The train
>      consisted of 60 closed freight cars fully loaded with people:

	One wonders at the size of a large locomotive.  

>      young ones, old ones, men and women, children and babies.  The car
>      doors were locked from the outside and the air holes covered with
>      barbed wire.  On the running boards on both sidej and on the roof
>      about a dozen SS-soldiers stood or lay with machine guns at the
>      ready.  

	Running boards on freight cars.  People moving with cars that had been
unguarded for hundreds of miles.  Fascinating.  

It was hot and most of the people in the freight cars were
>      deadly exhausted...  As the train came nearer it seemed as if an
>      evil spirit had taken hold of the waiting SS-men.  

	Nice touch.  

They drew their
>      pistols, returned them to their holsters, pulled them out agian,
>      as if they wanted to shoot and kill.  They approached the freight
>      cars and tried to reduce the noise and the weeping; but then they
>      screamed at the Jews and cursed them, all the while urging the
>      railroad workers to hurry: "Quick, faster!" After that they
>      returned to the camp in order to receive the deportees.
>      (Franciszek Zabecki, 'Wspomnienia dawne i nowe', Warsaw, 1977 pp.
>      39 f)

>      As the train approached the extermination camp, the engine blew a
>   prolonged whistle which was the signal for the Ukrainians to man
>   their position in the reception sector and on the roofs of the
>   buildings.  One group of SS-men and Ukrainians took up positions on
>   the station platform.  As soon as the train was moving along the
>   tracks inside the camp, the gates behind it were closed.  The
>   deportees were taken out of the freight cars and conducted through a
>   gate to a fenced-in square inside the camp.  At the gate they were
>   separated: men to the right, women and children to the left.  A large
>   placard announced in Polish and German: 

>       Attention Warsaw Jews!  You are in a transit camp from which the
>       transport will continue to labor camps.  To prevent epidemics,
>       clothing as well as pieces of baggage are to be handed over for
>       disinfection.  Gold, money, foreign currency, and jewellery are to
>       be deposited at the "Cash Office" against a receipt.  They will be
>       returned later on presentation of the receipt.  For physical
>       cleanliness, all arrivals must have a bath before travelling on.
>       (Verdict of LG Dusseldorf AZ 81 Ks 2/64, p. 81.) 

>   The undressing procedure and the manner in which the victims were led
>   to the gas chambers were almost identical to those described for the
>   Sobibor camp.

>   During this first phase, from the beginning to the middle of August,
>   5,000 - 7,000 Jews arrived every day in Treblinka.  Then the pace of
>   the transports increased; there were days on which 10,000 - 12,000
>   deportees reached the camp, together with thousands who were already
>   dead and others who were utterly exhausted.

	Again these amazing numbers and again all of these bodies being burned
in open pits and again no mention of the smell as it is not appropriate
to this story.  

>   Abraham Goldfarb, who arrived there on August 25, described the
>   scene:

>      When we arrived in Treblinka and the Germans opened the
>      freight cars we beheld a horrible sight. The car was full of
>      corpses.  The bodies were partly decomposed by chlorine. The
>      stench in the cars made those still alive choke.  The Germans
>      ordered everyone to get out; those still able to do so were half
>      dead.  Waiting SS and Ukrainians beat us and shot at us...

	Looks like someone smuggled a huge cylinder of chlorine on board with
him in order to commit a grotesque form of mass suicide.  But it beats
the story of the cars that were filled with lime to kill and decompose
the bodies before they arrived.  

>      On the way to the gas chambers Germans with dogs stood along the
>      fence on both sides.  The dogs had been trained to attack people;
>      they bit the men's genitals and the women's breasts, ripping off
>      pieces of flesh.  The Germans hit the people with whips and iron
>      bars to spur them on so that they pressed forward into the
>      "showers" as quickly as possible.  The screams of the women could
>      be heard far away, even in the other parts of the camp. The
>      Germans drove the running victims on with shouts of: "Faster,
>      faster, the water will get cold, others still have to go under the
>      showers!" To escape from the blows, the victims ran to the gas
>      chambers as quickly as they could, the stronger ones pushing the
>      weaker aside.  At the entrance to the gas chambers stood the two
>      Ukrainians, Ivan Demaniuk and Nikolai, one of them armed with an
>      iron bar, the other with a sword.  They drove the people inside
>      with blows...  As soon as the gas chambers were full, the
>      Ukrainians closed the doors and started the engine.  Some 20-25
>      minutes later an SS-man or a Ukrainian looked through a window in
>      the door.  When they had ascertained that everyone had been
>      asphyxiated, the Jewish prisoners had to open the doors and remove
>      the corpses.  Since the chambers were overcrowded and the victims
>      held on to one another, they all stood upright and were like one
>      single block of flesh.  (Yad Vashem Archives 0-3/2140) 

	It is rather amazing that all of these people's legs locked frozen at
death.  But the SS engine exhaust kills differently from other engine
exhaust.  A nice touch also.  Worthy of a horror story writer.  

>   Breakdowns and interruptions occurred in the operation of the gas
>   chambers.  During the initial phase the personnel did not know how
>   long it would take to asphyxiate the victims.  On occasion the doors
>   were opened too early and the victims were still alive, so that the
>   doors had to be closed again.  

	And stood up again real neat so they would all remain standing.  

The engines which produced the gas
>   occasionally failed.  If such mishaps occurred when the victims were
>   already inside the gas chambers, they were left standing there until
>   the engines had been repaired.  Some 268,000 Jews met their deaths in
>   the first extermination wave in Treblinka, which lasted five
>   weeks--from July 23 to August 28.

	7000 a day.  Quite an amazing figure.  

>    The gas chambers with their technical breakdowns were unable to cope
>   with such enormous numbers.  Those who could not be pressed inside
>   were shot in the reception camp.  Many prisoners and additional
>   ditches were needed in order to bury all those who had been shot, in
>   addition to the thousands who had died during the transports.  An
>   excavator from the gravel pit in the nearby Treblinka punishment camp
>   was used for digging additional mass graves.

	No burning pits in this story so we must expect to find hundreds of
thousands of corpses in mass graves some day when someone gets around to
looking for them.  

>   But this did not solve the problem and at the end of August chaos
>   still reigned in Treblinka.  Reports of what went on in the camp
>   reached headquarters.  Globocnik and Wirth arrived, assessed the
>   situation, and dismissed Eberl, the camp commandant.  Stangl, from
>   Sobibor, who was without work because of repairs on the tracks, was
>   appointed commandant of Treblinka.








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars, The Series [Preface]
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4rnhvj$i03@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4rlpoj$32hc@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 07 12:29:23 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 6 Jul 1996 13:29:55 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>Ride with us as we lower ourselves into the slime at the bottom of life 
>where the V*rmin wriggle , those who have stolen YOUR names and laid 
>claim to the 5,000 year heritage of the brave Semites of the House of 
>Judea. They are the GRAVES, the McVEYs and the McFEEs of the world, 
>bringing havoc out of  order,  and ruin out of 10,000 years of White 
>Heritage.

>By: Jim Floyd: (jimfloyd@cneti.com)

>Subject: Sint ut sunt aut non sint.

>JAMES FLOYD on the impossibilities of Anti-Semitism, or ( how can Elie 
>Weasel call Jesus his cousin and keep a semi-straight face ) 

>It is the fervent hope of this humble writer that one of our slime-ball, 

>self-appointed, commissars of 'political correctness' such as Mo Dees, 
>Gut 
>Abe Foxman, Congressman Schumer et al. will find this series of articles 
>so
>repugnant and dangerous to this cozy 'chosen' status crap that they will 

>immediately seek recourse in a court of law.

>Equally fervid is the hope that after you read this material NEVER AGAIN 

>will you allow  a Khazar to denigrate anyone with the vile term
>'Anti-Semite'.

>"The story of the Khazar Empire, as it slowly emerges from the past, 
>begins
>to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated."
>                     Arthur Koestler, 'The Thirteenth Tribe'
>                         (found dead with his wife - ruled suicide)

	If you are into SF there is an old story, On Venus have we got a Rabbi,
(William Tenn?) that recounts this story in a future setting.  

	It seems they discover this alien race that claims to be Jewish ...  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48814 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 07:02:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4rnnle$g8o@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4rm7pm$ot@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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On 6 Jul 1996 13:29:26 -0400, sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:

>I never have had a problem with Nazis being Nazis and publicly espousing
>their vile hatred.  It's only this revisionist b.s. I find offensive.

	As there is no recorded Israelite migration into the areas that were
beyond the influence of the Roman Empire where the Eastern European Jews
appear to have come from, it is unclear what objection you might have.  

	If there were an answer, it would be easy to produce.  

	Cite the migration.  

	There would be more than sufficient documentation of Israelite (Judean?)
settlements as was the custom in those times.  There would certainly be
records of continuity on the fringes of the Eastern Roman Empire.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:50 PDT 1996
Article: 48817 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who would be Gannon?
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:50:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Jul 1996 09:17:05 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <31DDD98A.3518@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>Daniel Keren wrote:

>>> What do you hope to accomplish, by reposting your lies over and
>>> over again?

>>He wants to be the new Dan Gannon?

>Fat chance! He's got the whiney part down pretty fine, but he
>hasn't yet learned to:

>1. Call everyone who disagrees a VILE LITTLE LIAR!
>2. Post the same article, (we recommend a 50K IHR tract), to 80
>   newsgroups at the same time, 
>3. Irritate ISPs to the point where none of them will provide
>   you with an account, then
>4. Claim you have been censored and "banished" from the 
>   Internet. (Use the Internet to make this claim.)
>5. Provide sexually explicit material on your bbs and
>   run it as a commercial operation when you discover it is
>   less taxing intellectually than "Holocaust scholarship"
>6. Use at least three pseudonyms at the same time, but
>   make each one say VILE LITTLE LIAR at least once a day
>7. Threaten local gay businessmen/women, post their names
>   and addresses on the Internet at least twice, and
>   suggest that people "call them up and tell them what
>   you think of..." them, in the hope they will go out
>   of business. Do this in the name of free speech and
>   democracy and hope no one will notice the contradiction.
>8. Have your very own "alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum"
>   newsgroup created. If others won't do it for you, 
>   scream "I am not a NAZI you VILE LITTLE LIAR!" and
>   do it yourself.
>9. Explain that Negroes have smaller brains than everyone
>   else.
>10. Show photographs of dead bodies hanging from nails,
>   claim they are doctored because you can't see any rope.

>Tommy hasn't even begun to score points yet on the Gannon
>Scale of InterNet Abuse. Neither has Giwer, although Giwer has
>managed to achieve something Gannon did not.

>The real key to "being Gannon" is to accept the fact that
>"revisionism" is a lost cause, and flog sex instead.... all,
>of course, in the name of free speech.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

	Ken McVay believes he can buy his way into the tribe and has yet to
realize there is no way to do so.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:51 PDT 1996
Article: 48819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.comm.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:08:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4rnh0i$8tf@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 10:38:27 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
wrote:

>In <31dd2d66.2390610@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>[Moran's recycled distortion deleted.  It has been corrected and
>placed in context several times in the past.]

>>	
>>	Actually, it is a childish ploy for evasion. Hilary has never, as
>>far as I know, posted anything of substance.	Of course she could come
>>back and post some of her stuff to rebuke this claim. Okay Hillary, go
>>for it.

>Indeed, and we are getting very tired of your tedious childish evasive
>ploys, Mr. Moran. 

	Who is this "we" are you are speaking for?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news-relay.us.dell.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet Another $$$$$$/Holocaust Connection
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:48:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
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References: <31de7b84.3629938@news.pacificnet.net>
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 14:53:55 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>"Ctitics Decry Order That Jews Pay Themselves War Reparations"
>                L.A.Times, July 6, 1996

>"Rome --Italy has ordered reparations to Jews who suffered under the
>anti-Semitic laws of facism--but insists the money must come from the
>country's own Jewish community.
>	Some Parliment members, saying the Treasury Ministry's demand is
>'repugnant' called on the gavernment this week to stop it.
>	The Ministry issued injunctions in September and Janurary for the
>Union of Irtalian Jewish Communities to pay up to 327,000
>inreparations, ...."

>	The article cites only one member of the Parliment by name as
>having a beef with the order.

	Poetic justice?  

	These folks keep banging on the Catholic Church and every allied
government in sight for failure instantly stop the holocaust.

	But they never notice that those organizations such as the World Jewish
Congress never at any time bought any shortwave air time and broadcast
anything like, "Fight, you are going to be steamed" or "Kill them before
they electrocute you" whatever was popular at the time.  The only radio
reports documented of anything even close come out of Switzerland.  

	Who in fact was most personally derelict when there is supposedly clear,
believable and almost unquestionable that such information was passed by
Jewish leaders to the US and British governments who declined to do
anything.  

	It appears they threw up their hands and declined to do anything
further.  It is like the Pope doing nothing and blaming everyone else
for doing nothing.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:53 PDT 1996
Article: 48828 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 09:58:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <4ro1uv$5ja@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4rkr13$gam@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 19:30:03 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <4rkr13$gam@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>[snip]

>> >In article <4r25vq$f0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>> >(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> >
>> >> The Memoirs of Dr. Nyiszli *Auschwitz* (Arcade, 1993)
>> >
>> >> THE SHOOTING (Chapter 9, pp. 66-68)
>> >> 
>> >> One night Dr. Nyiszli wakes up to hear shooting.  He goes into a room
>> >> and finds 70 naked women, not all of them dead, aprawled in a bloody 
>> >> mess on the floor. Each of whom has been shot in the back of the head.  
>> >> A sonderkommando assures him that every night trucks bring 70 more to 
>> >> be murdered the same way.
>> >
>> >Tauber describes something similar when he was working in Krema I. 
>> >Some 30 to 40 people were brought into the morgue of Krema I a couple 
>> >times a week and shot there. Braod aslo wrote about a mass shooting of 
>> >over 200 people that took place at Krema I. Ho"ss wrote that small 
>> >transports of Russians were constantly being shot in the gravel pits at 
>> >the Monopol factory or in Block 11. 
>> 
>> There were shootings no doubt.  But again I consider the above seriously
>> exaggerated.

>Why? What evidence do you have that would indicate such atrocities were
>"exagerated?" Do please be specific. 

>> >> THE MASS BURNING (Chapter 13, pp. 84-89)
>> >> 
>> >> 5,000 people are waiting to be burned in open pits.  They are led into
>> >> a house in groups of 400, forced to strip while beaten, and then are
>> >> chased along a gauntlet of SS to a pit.  The pit is 50 yards long, six 
>> >> yards wide, and three yards deep.  SS men line the pit.  There were two 
>> >> such *pyres.*
>> >
>> >Tauber describes something similar (though in less detail) happening
>> >during Akyion Ho"ss. He claimed that there were so many people at times
>> >that the deportees that could not be immediately gassed were shot by the
>> >incineration pits instead. According to Tauber, Hauptscharfu"hrer Otto
>> >Moll (Molle according to Nyizli) threw people in the incineration pits
>> >alive to burn to death. 
>> 
>> According to USSR-8, the Soviet State Commission on Auschwitz, introduced
>> at the IMT, the pits were of the dimension cited by Nyiszli.  The same
>> document specifies that a channel was cut in the bottom of the pit for air
>> supply. [Not for fat fuel]  USSR-8 also calculates a death toll at
>> Auschwitz Birkenau in excess of 4 million, clearly calculated on the basis
>> on the assumed incineration capacities of the crematoria.  So, that is the
>> source of that particular error.  Tauber testified for the Soviet State
>> Commission.  His subsequent testimony or testimonies is unknown to me.

>Aside from the fact that you are now changing the subject from the fact
>that the pits existed and peole were taken to them, shot and tossed (alive
>sometimes) into them to be incinerated; to the questioning of the
>plausability of using rendered human fat as a fuel- yet another typical
>tactic of the deniers -it seems we have a differrence of opinions here,
>yes? Do you know _how_ it was determined the channel was used for "air
>supply?" Was it from eyewitness testimony? Or was it supposition on the
>part of the Soviets? I'm curious as to how the Soviets came to their
>conclusions. 

	You will continue to be curious as there was never any physical evidence
of it.  There was never anything more than the fanciful tales of
gosh-aweful-for real eyewitnesses.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:53 PDT 1996
Article: 48832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:01:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4ro24u$5ja@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qsjd2$5ho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4r9lh8$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ra76l$7n3@atlas.uniserve.com> <4radpv$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ri0in$3bca@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4rk4fi$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31DE84F5.7AED@rio.com>
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 15:23:33 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree gives Matt his daily dose of bashing:
>Deleting all but the relivant point.


>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >>      Do you really think I give a damn about your opinion?

>To which I must ask the key question of Mr. Giwer!

>Mr. Giwer, sir, in all due respect, do you really think anybody gives 
>a damn about your opinions?
>Luv ya'
>Chuck

>PS: Consider this a threat if you so desire! Lay off Hilary, or your 
>wrinkled old ass belongs to me, pal!

	You kinky old ass keeps imagining it can get it up.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:54 PDT 1996
Article: 48835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 06:32:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4rnlsv$8d6@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 13:03:21 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >If Mr. Giwer is truly interested in discussion, I presume he will
>> >now enter into this discussion by explaining why he thinks it is "in
>> >the same league" -- after all, evidence for gassing includes
>> >eyewitness testimony, which this is not.  (And confessions, and
>> >physical evidence as well, but that's beside the point here.)
>> 
>> >Well, Mr. Giwer?  I'd like to discuss this with you.  Are you game?
>> 
>> Begin.

>I'm not sure why you can't respond to what I've already said, but
>perhaps I was not clear enough, so I'll try again.

	Because you have a tendency to imply things you have not said.  Please
do not change the thread name again as you have with this change
obliterated the trace to what you originally said.  

>Please explain why you think the quote in question is "in the same
>league" as the homicidal gassings.  It has been demonstrated that
>evidence for gassing includes eyewitness testimony, which this is not,
>along with confessions of the perpetrators, and corroborating physical
>evidence.

	Even if you insist upon confounding testimony with evidence these are
both testimony and therefore in the same league, category or whatever
you may wish to call it.

	You are, however, lacking physical evidence of gassing for the testimony
to corroborate (note the correct order not vice versa) as we have been
over many times.  

>Note that whether you believe in homicidal gassings is irrelevant.
>The question at hand is why you think this quote is evidence "in the
>same league" as the evidence for homicidal gassings, which, prima
>facie, is clearly is not.

	It is only if you insist you have physical evidence which is not where
these stories got started can you think you have a case.  But we have
been over that.  

	And going further, there was zero physical evidence introduced at the
time these stories were accepted as true.  That includes the steaming,
electrocution, gassing and vacuuming stories.  So in fact you have no
foundation in the origination of these stories.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:55 PDT 1996
Article: 48837 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:30:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article ,
>Marty Kelley  said:

>[about the alleged harassment of Gutless Giwer]

>>And I have never seen you identify any of the people, besides Marduk, who
>>you are accusing of harrassing your family (and Marduk's "harassment"
>>seems to consist of one or two e-mail messages sent to your son).  Please
>>provide evidence that any of the other regular participants have harassed
>>your family, or withdraw your claim.

>That's because there was no harassment and no e-mail to his son.  But Giwer
>knows that.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48843 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Collective FlimFlam
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:58:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
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On 6 Jul 1996 10:00:41 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote, citing a troll:

>>> In fact his policy grew from his experience commanding the garrison at
>>> Vicksberg.  There he became appalled by the civilian response to his

>>Interesting statements. Where did you get the idea that "scorched earth"
>>came from Vicksburg? (Note spelling.) It just so happens that I'm reading
>>a few books on the very subject right now, and NONE of them cone to the
>>same conclusion that you do.

>That is because _you_ are talking about Vicksburg, while the
>troll is not. _It_ is talking about Vicksberg, as it clearly
>indicated. Vicksburg is off topic - Vicksberg is, as the troll
>will no doubt later illustrate, somewhere in Poland, and
>therefore _on_ topic, as the troll would never post an
>off-topic article here, nosiree h*ber.

>(I recommend you point your rigii at
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/sorry-charlie.html
>or 
>http://www.nizkor.eye.net/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/sorry-charlie.html
>in order to better understand what you are dealing with here.)

>>He who asserts must prove, Mr. Giwer. 

>The troll did indeed say that, but the troll most certainly
>did not mean that. It routinely says things that it does not mean. 
>It is called "lying," or "duplicity." See URL
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/mantra-chanting-fool.html
>for a pristine example.

>>Where did the above information come from?

>Interesting question, particularly when asked of this
>particular troll, which often spouts off without even a remote
>basis or foundation for its blather.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/email-96-06.html

>(I don't think you were supposed to ask that question, Sara.)

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-30000-kcal.html

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>Emailed and posted. Followups redirected to the appropriate
>newsgroup, as noted.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>-----------------------| Prince Myshkin's Giwer Bait Sold Here
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

Man: Morning.
Waitress: Morning.
M: Well, what you got?
W: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam;
    egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon,
    sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam,
    sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam,
    spam, egg and spam; (vikings start singing in background) spam,
spam,
    spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
Vikings: Spam, spam , spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.
W (cont): or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served
    in the purple salm manor with chalots and overshies, garnashed with
    truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam.  That's not got
much spam in it.
Wi: I don't want any spam!
M: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wi: That's got spam in it.
M: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has
it?
Wi: (over vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and
    sausage without the spam then?
Wa: Ech!
Wi: What do you mean ech!  I don't like spam!
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc
Wa: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!  Bloody vikings.  You can't have egg,
bacon
    spam and sausage without the spam.
Wi: I don't like spam!
M: Sh dear, don't cause a fuss.  I'll have your spam.  I love it.  I'm
having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam,
spam, spam and spam. (starts vikings off again)
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc
Wa: Shut up!  Baked beans are off.
M: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?
Wa: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam, spam, and spam?
V: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48844 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:10:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4ro2mq$1v9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:30:54 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>> had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>> 
>>         But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>> likely agent.
>> 
>>         When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>> collapsed.

>Tabun was the first dedicated nerve agent, the second, Sarin, only 
>having been produced in test quantities and the third, Soman, was in 
>developement when the material was seized by the Soviets who were the first 
>to actually produce it.  Tabun, Sarin and Soman have the NATO codenames
>GA, GB and GD.  Sarin was NATO's standard nerve agent until the developement 
>of the V series nerve gasses.

>They were developed from insecticides and work by blocking 
>neurotransmitters, essentially causing the nervous system to simply shut 
>down and the body to die.  Field antidote is usually atropine which causes 
>neurotransmitter release to increase, hopefully more than the nerve agent 
>can block.

	You fail to make any points here.  

>Sarin has a very low natural detoxification level, thus can build up in the 
>body to fatal levels.  It is persistant in enclosed structures and the 
>recommended method of decontamination is by chemical treatment or live steam 
>to accelerate the natural breakdown.  Left by itself it may last in 
>significant concentrations for several days and also is denser than air, 
>thus may tend to concentrate in low places (like cellars).

>Field use requires full protective gear (gas mask and enclosed sealed suit).

>Reasons Sarin might be used in a gas chamber: 

>    Deadly as all hell (faster than Zyklon B, less concentration required) 

>    Exposure to skin and inhalation both possibly fatal (Zyklon B usually 
>     only fatal after inhalation)


>Reasons Sarin would be impractical in a gas chamber:

>    Full protective gear required by operators of chamber

>        -Zyklon B requires gas mask and gloves

	Save that the reported times to death are on the same order as those
reported for HCN.  I have read reports of everything from instantaneous
to two days.  They accumulate around 10-20 minutes.  That is nerve gas.


	I can not change that.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48845 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:31:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
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On 06 Jul 96 15:07:12, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

> >> Gassings were reported and representatives were begging the
> >> American military to bomb the chambers during the war.

> mnc>     The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines
> mnc> cut so that no more people could be sent there and so the food
> mnc> would be cut off so those already there would starve.

>Utter nonsense. Go read "Abandonment of the Jews" and follow up on
>the references. I'm still BUSY (today is my son's birthday - the big
>ONE-OH) so you have time.

	For example,

>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>  	The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines cut so that
>  no more people could be sent there and so the food would be cut off so
>  those already there would starve.  

	"In 1944 a new proposalemerged which, it was hoped, might save 
Jews from the gas chambers.  At first the proposal entailed bombing the
railway 
lines leading to Auschwitz.  Later it was extended to include bombing
also the 
gas chambers and the crematoria."  Dawidowicz; "What is the Use of
Jewish 
History?"; page 169

	--YFE





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 12:22:20 PDT 1996
Article: 35407 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: You may wish to ask a h*ber......
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 07:11:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4rno5r$r4s@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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On 6 Jul 1996 11:52:30 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <4rlrsk$1ss0@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, 
>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (evil h*ber liar) wrote:

>>     The New York Times of August 7, 1933, published the Talmudists'
>>declaration of their "holy war" against Germany in a three-column report 

>REALITY CHECK #1: This is from a proven forger. Check the NYT
>archives before accepting anything from this source.

>REALITY CHECK #2: August 7, 1933, eh? Let's give the forger
>the benefit of the doubt, and consider the question "Why would
>a Jewish community feel the need for a "holy war" against the
>Germans?

>Jewish immigrants were denaturalized
>Jews were denied the right to hold public office
>Jews were denied civil service jobs

	Precisely the point.  Were Jews not denied those opportunities there
would have been Jews hung for waging agressive war and crimes against
humanity and the like.  

>Jews were denied employment in the press
>Jews were denied employment in the broadcasting business
>Jews were denied the right to farm

>From the Nazi Party program of February, 1920 (Which may be
>prior to August 7, 1933...but you may wish to ask a h*ber):

>"Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the
>race can only be one who is of German blood without
>consideration of confession."

>"The right to determine matters concerning administration and
>law belongs only to the citizen; therefore, we demand that
>every public office of any sort whatsover, whether in the
>Reich, the country or municipality, be filled only by
>citizens." (1708-PS)

	And all this time I have been told these were all Hitler's ideas.  How
could I have been so mislead?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:54 PDT 1996
Article: 48849 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:32:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rn4at$7rh@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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On 4 Jul 1996 01:14:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>>  	The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines cut so that
>>  no more people could be sent there and so the food would be cut off so
>>  those already there would starve.  

>	"In 1944 a new proposalemerged which, it was hoped, might save 
>Jews from the gas chambers.  At first the proposal entailed bombing the railway 
>lines leading to Auschwitz.  Later it was extended to include bombing also the 
>gas chambers and the crematoria."  Dawidowicz; "What is the Use of Jewish 
>History?"; page 169

	Explain it to Alec, not me.  He is the one who does not understand what
he is supporting.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 48851 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:39:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4rn4nj$7rh@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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On 4 Jul 1996 01:14:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>>  	The last time I heard this story they wanted the rail lines cut so that
>>  no more people could be sent there and so the food would be cut off so
>>  those already there would starve.  

>	"In 1944 a new proposalemerged which, it was hoped, might save 
>Jews from the gas chambers.  At first the proposal entailed bombing the railway 
>lines leading to Auschwitz.  Later it was extended to include bombing also the 
>gas chambers and the crematoria."  Dawidowicz; "What is the Use of Jewish 
>History?"; page 169

	BTW:  It still doesn't work for the same reasons.  Cut off the rail
lines and you cut off food and medicine for everyone.  Iron bombs are
not good enough to hit a single building with a single bomb with any
degree of success.  It would have required a major strike to get them
all and in the process the crematoria would also be taken out, thus
doing wonders for the general sanitation.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48852 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:44:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4rn51t$7rh@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ragsd$ink@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rcha9$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rlnu9$lt0@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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On 6 Jul 1996 12:58:49 GMT, Nele Abels
 wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:
>>
>>>"My opinions, the
>>>only opinions
>>>worth having."
>>>	M. Giwer
>>
>>>"Loquientiae multum,
>>>sapientiae parum."
>>>	Sallust

>[...]


>>>I will collect his contributions to the discussion and to condense them
>>>as a criticism of "revisionist" techniques of discussion shown on a
>>>grateful object. This is in my opinion the only way to defend speaking
>>>with holocaust-deniers.
>>

>>	Anyone want to explain this one?  

>[Weakminded drivel cleared]

>I don't think that you have any say in a discussion on how to react
>on your spams, Mr. Giwer. Apart from that, out of sheer curiosity,
>did you understand anything of my essay? If you want to hold up
>your "IQ163" in front of those you call "lurkers", you should at
>least try to produce a coherent answer...

	You are too new to this conference to know but I was specifically asked
my IQ and I answered the question.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:57 PDT 1996
Article: 48877 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben's Auschwitz Diet...
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 19:51:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
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On Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:45:04 -0700, Marty Kelley 
wrote:

>On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> On 6 Jul 1996 04:00:08 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
>> OBC) wrote:

>> >   "Starvation was a permanent guest at Auschwitz.  The diet fed to I.G.
>> >   Auschwitz inmates, which included the famous 'Buna Soup' - a
>> >   nutritional aid not available to other prisoners - resulted in an
>> >   average weight loss for each individual of about six and a half to
>> >   nine pounds a week. 

>> 	It is rather laughable that anyone would believe this kind of story.  
>> 
>> 	It is like some innocent child hearing his Marine father using a
>> nickname for some dish from the slop chute at Quantico and concocting a
>> horror story around it.  "They  make my Daddy eat plastic pizza and then
>> he got sick and died."  
>> 
>> 	But then there were secret synthetic foods made by the plant that did
>> nothing more than simply not feeding people would do.  

>Gee, Mr. Giwer, looks like _you're_ the one who's mistaken in reading the
>ironic commentary on the food served to the prisoners.  Nowhere is the
>claim made that the "Buna Soup" made people starve _more_ quickly than not
>being fed; the article simply says that the stuff wasn't worth eating.
>(If the soup caused diarrhea, of course, it could result in quicker-than-
>usual weight loss and dehydration).

	The very fact that people believe the story is what is laughable.  It is
quite in the league with my "plastic pizza" suggestion.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 08:22:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4rnsbl$s63@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4raqek$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbmos$r62@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rnqcc$glk@access4.digex.net>
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On 7 Jul 1996 03:52:44 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>	A possible position.  However as you have seen the game played here
>>>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.  
>>>>	That is unacceptable.  
>>
>>>	The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>>>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>>>side demolishes your arguments.
>>
>>The point is that similar methods are used by both sides

>    False.


>>and there is in
>>fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.  

>    False.



>>	What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
>>their sources are unimpeachable.  

>    False.

	Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point.  

>>>>	Mothers are not fathers.  
>>
>>>	No shit, Sherlock????!!!!!!!!!!
>>	
>>>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>>>posting to me and about me?  
>>
>>>	Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>>>"simpering bitch". Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>>>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>>>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?
>>
>>HRO's posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
>>insults.  What makes you think she should be immune from response?  

>    It is not a personal attack to call Mr. Giwer a liar.  He lies.  That
>is a statement of fact which can be proved to courtroom standards.  I have
>offered a wager that I can prove this to a neutral arbiter from the
>American Arbitration Association.  Mr. Giwer has not responded to this
>wager.

	Mere assertion is always the best resopnse.  

	I have seen the "wager game" played out for 19 years in the public
forums and I am not interested in it in the least.  It is only newbies
who still engage in it.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:58 PDT 1996
Article: 48926 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vistachrome.com!news.supernet.net!news.bconnex.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:22:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4ro3c8$7hf@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <2b4_9607062322@tor250.org>
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On 06 Jul 96 23:05:52, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz] [Sat 06 Jul 96 02:25][Sat 06 Jul 96
>21:36][0]*>

> >> a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
> >> started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
> >> death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to
> >> death.

> mnc>     What an asshole.  We know that one "whiff" causes immediate
> mnc> unconsciousness.

>Only if the cyanide release was fast enough - which you've been
>arguing against.

>Good lord, Matt - have you really burned yourself out already?!? The
>others, Moran the moron and Huber the hopeless ect, aren't worth
>trying to match wits with. I thought thta *YOU* might give me a
>little bit of a fight, but not with this kind of nonsense!

>You did a much more creditable job, albeit still failing, in Debate,
>Politics, Controv, Soapbox and even the Ilink conferences!

>This is pathetic!

	You are trying a fool's game and not answering the mail.

	We KNOW that "one whiff" does not cause recoverable unconsciousness and
we know that the completion of the story requires the flesh and clothing
to fuse into gelatinous masses.  If you believe one you believe them
both.  

	You are showing yourself no better than a holohugger, yet you pretending
rationality in your phone calls.   






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:59 PDT 1996
Article: 48931 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phenol or Gas
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 19:48:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 19:54:38 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <4rl3ln$ilv@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

>> No offense intended, but why were the nazis experimenting with phenol
>shots in 
>>1942, after they  already supposedly knew how quickly zyklon could kill?  It's 
>>somewhat of a non sequitor, isn't it?

>Well, because the Nazis weren't "experimenting" with phenol shots. The
>Nazis used phenol shots as a method of execution for the sick and
>invalided in the infirmaries. As to the time it took to kill- a phenol
>shot to the heart killed in a matter of seconds. 

	But where did they get the six inch needles to reach the heart?  Or the
hollow two inch nails to get between the ribs?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 19:56:58 PDT 1996
Article: 49067 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 20:37:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 201
Message-ID: <4rp7e3$s01@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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On 7 Jul 1996 14:25:21 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>	The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
>>guilt to explain.  All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
>>on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.  

>    The failure of "revisionists" to shake this "myth" does not need any
>repression to explain.  All you have to do is to read the lies,
>distortions, false logic, and other intellectual shortcomings in the works
>of revisionists - including Mr. Giwer himself - and it becomes quite clear
>that the "real world" is something they are hardly qualified to talk
>about.

	And the more honest note the mere assertion of such things rather than a
demonstration of them at the time is all the holohuggers have going for
them.  

>>	It is not permitted to publically express any questions about the
>>current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media.  In some
>>countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.  

>    This was not always the case even in Germany (and I do wish they would
>repeal the laws, as it gives people like Mr. Giwer a wonderful red herring
>to wave about).  It is certainly not the case in this country. 

>    Mr. Giwer has complained of conspiracies to censor him and harrass him
>and his family due to his posts here.  

	At no time have I made any claim to any conspiracy.  But you know that.
So what would have brought to you mind?  

He can, of course, supply no
>evidence other than his own word, which has been proved false on many
>occasions - and he can, of course, provide no evidence that any genuine
>harrassment has come as a result of his questioning of the Holocaust,
>rather than his provable lies and libel.  But he pretends to be unaware
>that one can avoid that in this forum through the use of anonymous
>remailers such as anon.penet.fi. 

	It is testimony.  Suddenly testimony is not good enough for you?  

>    Revisionists have come into this forum and left after they were unable
>to reply to rebuttals of their logic and falsification of their evidence.
>Mr. Giwer's lies to the contrary, Greg Raven was presented with cogent
>critiques of his methodology and of the distortions and dishonest
>omissions contained in the sources he cited for his own arguments.  Like
>Mr. Giwer, he now refers to reminders of his own proven dishonesty as
>"personal attacks."

	If he was presented with what you claim why has that not been done in
the last six months or so?  

>    Friedrich Berg was presented with technical references on toxicology
>and gaping holes in his own reasoning, plus evidence that he distorted
>material he cited in his own work.  Mr. Giwer has been presented with my
>material addressing Berg on more than one occasion.  Despite Mr. Giwer's
>professed scientific and engineering background, Mr. Giwer has not been
>able to offer any substantive response to it.

	I have no idea who this Berg person is.  However any responses I have
supplied have been based upon science and engineering.  That you may not
have realized that is merely an example of your lack of knowledge.  

>    Michael Hoffman got similar treatment; his references were checked
>(the affidavits of Morgen and Mittelstadt) and it was shown how he was
>reading them in a completely invalid manner.  He too provably lied - not
>about the Holocaust, but about his justification for denigrating my
>knowledge of Hebrew.  (His claimed justification was a comment I made
>nearly three weeks _after_ his insult was delivered.  I don't _think_ he
>owns a time machine.) 

	Again, never heard of him.  

>>	I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
>>inspection.

>    Mr. Giwer has shown some deficiencies in the thinking department
>before.  Not to mention the reading comprehension and memory departments.

	Again, mere assertion.  

>>	The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
>>would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
>>vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be.  The
>>"explanations" the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
>>happening again, are obviously transparent and false.  

>    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

	Because it HAS HAPPENED again.  

>    I wonder if Mr. Giwer would like to turn a similar skeptical eye on
>the explanations of the IHR "revisionists" as to the motives for their
>vigorous efforts to disprove any Nazi policy of mass murder, using
>doctored "evidence" if need be.

	I have not seen examples of that.  Perhaps you have some.  

>>	What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done.  Blood
>>money for Israel is another suggestion.  However at this point the
>>reasons suggested are speculation.  
>>
>>	Consider the difference in Russia.  They trot out their war heroes in
>>November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
>>year.  But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
>>war.  
>>
>>	However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
>>and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war.  It
>>is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
>>As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
>>the loss of Texas and California.  
>>
>>	This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature.

>    So too is the complete lack of recantation of those supposedly coerced
>false confessions.  

	It is difficult to recant from the grave.  

One or two might be explainable as the kind of
>brainwashing of the witchcraft trial kind, as some "revisionists" feebly
>try to pretend, but the number of testimonies contrary to self-interest
>is, in my view, too large - and too unbalanced by later retraction - to be
>convincing.  Mr. Giwer is welcome to address this point, which I have
>raised before and which no "revisionist" has dared to touch. 

	Which also explains why the witches did not recant.  

	But you have also read here many exculpatory statements by those at the
top of the chain clearly indicating they knew nothing about any such
thing and were quite surprised to hear the testimony.  

>>As I
>>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>>day he died.  
>>
>>There is something very, very wrong with this behavior.  It needs help,
>>not encouragement.  

>    The same can be said of Mr. Giwer's behavior.  He claims that he is
>just trying to get this newsgroup back on track, without personal attacks. 
>However, he has run away from discussions of cremation and of diesel
>exhaust gassing which he initiated.  Clearly he doesn't have the capacity
>to debate the material with someone who has some familiarity with it. 

	What do you think I have run away from?  I have must have posted at
least a hundred messages on each of those two subjects alone.  Perhaps
you have simply not following very closely.  

	Or perhaps you are and are merely trying to address the lurkers with
assertion knowing they will not check for themselves.  

>    And he has also said he is here to debunk.  (But what kind of
>debunking is it that needs to lie, as Mr. Giwer has provably done, time
>and again?)  Earlier said that his purpose here was to amuse himself
>dealing with the type of people he found here - in other words, to troll. 

	You assertions of lies are again merely that.  The closest thing that I
can remember to that is someone without a scientific background claiming
something I say about science is a lie.  I have found several
"refutations" of my statements by nonscientists who have not the
slightest idea what they are talking about.  

>    It is hard to see how all of Mr. Giwer's statements here can be true. 
>Many are provably false.  This is not a personal attack; it is a statement
>of fact which I have backed up with self-contradictory quotes from Mr. 
>Giwer's own posts as well as comparison of the words of others (including
>my own) with Mr. Giwer's blatant misrepresentations of those words, and
>his dishonest editing. 

	Do you really think the lurkers are swallowing this?  

>    Anytime Mr. Giwer wishes to engage in serious debate about the
>Holocaust he is free to do so and I am here for him.  But he cannot read
>with comprehension, cannot remember what he has read (or, sometimes,
>written!) and has run away from substantive discussion of issues where he
>claims to have a solid grounding, technical and scientific issues.  It is
>clear that he cannot cope with the material, so he must lie and spam and
>troll and hope to distract people from the intellectual failures which are
>well-documented in his own posts.

>    I have given him every opportunity to respond with serious debate, but
>he has run away time and again, one time lying that I have deleted his
>work (which I have not done, and he of course never offers documentation
>of his own claims).  It is clear that he is just a lying troll who has no
>real interest or ability to discuss these issues (or even understand them,
>as he demonstrates repeated failures of reading comprehension).

>    If he wants people to stop referring to him as a lying troll, all he
>has to do is stop lying and stop trolling.  It is that simple.  But so far
>he has shown no mental capacity to do anything better.  Too bad.

	Nice try but no cigar.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 21:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49072 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mauving right along
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	A most amazing thing has occurred.  

	After months of insisting upon blue coloring, after hundreds of messages
on the subject, testimony as to a different color is presented.

	Lo and Behold!  The color is easily misidentified!  

	Can this misidentification be applied to the original blue?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul  8 21:34:58 PDT 1996
Article: 49074 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Whacko Jew posting alert!
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References:  <4qb2tk$9qa@taurus.adnc.com>  <01bb63ae.3b4a3940$fd5132cc@utopia.odyssee.net> <31D277D2.1C38@rio.com> <31DCB5E6.4C13@azstarnet.com>  
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 07:25:06 -0500, ladybugs@snailhole.com (Wonderful
Lady) wrote:

>I might mention that Jews have more intelligence than other whites--about
>10-15 IQ points higher. In addition, jews have given whites far more than
>they have taken. Science, medicine, democracy, military methods,
>agriculture, religion, philosophy, psychology, ethics, finance,
>journalism, tolerance--these are the things which jews have given all
>mankind.

	You read like a Jewish white supremacist or Nation of Islam type.  

>If the jews had not been born, the world would not be as advanced as it is
>today. I believe there should be a single day every year in which jews
>should be honored. I honor jews every day, period. If all races were this
>productive and this responsible for their actions and for the rights of
>others, we would not have racial hatred, high crime, or irresponsibility
>by members of certain groups. Racial conflict would be at a new all time
>low. There would be no reason to hate, only to love.

	From the people who gave genocide to the world.  

>Wonderful Lady
>Repect all races equally ... Demand the best from them ... Do whatever you want as long as you don't harm someone else...

	Very wierd person.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:02 PDT 1996
Article: 49098 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31DF2F6E.2DDF@unb.ca> <4ro2mq$1v9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31DFFE86.492F@unb.ca>
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:14:30 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:30:54 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >>         It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>> >> had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>> >>
>> >>         But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>> >> likely agent.
>> >>
>> >>         When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>> >> collapsed.
>> 
>> >Tabun was the first dedicated nerve agent, the second, Sarin, only
>> >having been produced in test quantities and the third, Soman, was in
>> >developement when the material was seized by the Soviets who were the first
>> >to actually produce it.  Tabun, Sarin and Soman have the NATO codenames
>> >GA, GB and GD.  Sarin was NATO's standard nerve agent until the developement
>> >of the V series nerve gasses.
>> 
>> >They were developed from insecticides and work by blocking
>> >neurotransmitters, essentially causing the nervous system to simply shut
>> >down and the body to die.  Field antidote is usually atropine which causes
>> >neurotransmitter release to increase, hopefully more than the nerve agent
>> >can block.
>> 
>>         You fail to make any points here.

>I am providing background information so that the reader may render
>a somewhat informed judgement on the topic.  I'm well aware that putting
>things in context and providing information is a foreign concept to
>you, but I have no hope of ever making you acknowledge anything.


>> >Sarin has a very low natural detoxification level, thus can build up in the
>> >body to fatal levels.  It is persistant in enclosed structures and the
>> >recommended method of decontamination is by chemical treatment or live steam
>> >to accelerate the natural breakdown.  Left by itself it may last in
>> >significant concentrations for several days and also is denser than air,
>> >thus may tend to concentrate in low places (like cellars).
>> 
>> >Field use requires full protective gear (gas mask and enclosed sealed suit).
>> 
>> >Reasons Sarin might be used in a gas chamber:
>> 
>> >    Deadly as all hell (faster than Zyklon B, less concentration required)
>> 
>> >    Exposure to skin and inhalation both possibly fatal (Zyklon B usually
>> >     only fatal after inhalation)
>> 
>> >Reasons Sarin would be impractical in a gas chamber:
>> 
>> >    Full protective gear required by operators of chamber
>> 
>> >        -Zyklon B requires gas mask and gloves
>> 
>>         Save that the reported times to death are on the same order as those
>> reported for HCN.  I have read reports of everything from instantaneous
>> to two days.  They accumulate around 10-20 minutes.  That is nerve gas.
>> 
>>         I can not change that.

>Nor can I change the fact that you so blatently omitted the subsequent reasons
>I posted as to why Zyklon B would be a technically and operationally better
>agent than a nerve agent such as Sarin.  Why don't you puzzle those reasons
>out for a while and then get back to me when you actually have something
>interesting to say other than insipid comments and non-sequitors?

	I made one point, that the time frame for HCN deaths were on the same
order as nerve gas.  You went on to repeat a canned answer to something
I did not address.  At no time did I state that nerve gas would have
been a better choice.  

	So how much did you want left in?  The point is very simple.  The time
frame for death from breathing cyanide and from nerve gas (and from
carbon monoxide for that matter) are all reported to be approximately
the same by the eyewitnesses.  

	The point I was making, which has NOTHING whatever to do with "why
didn't they use nerve gas?," is that finding HCN in the same time frame
as nerve gas was my first serious indication that there was something
wrong with the stories based upon my assumption that that it had been
nerve gas.

	To go further, it was later finding CO deaths on the same order as HCN
and nerve gas that indicated there was something seriously wrong with
the stories.  

	Now if you would like to address the point I am making, please do so.  

	If you want to run off on why nerve gas was a poor choice, do not imply
you are addressing anything I posted.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:03 PDT 1996
Article: 49111 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:46:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4rt2r3$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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On 8 Jul 1996 08:36:43 -0700, mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4rmu49$qa9@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
>Rich Graves  wrote:
>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>>As always, your organization is welcome on the web, and encouraged to
>>participate in substantive discussions rather than spamming a la Giwer. I
>>challenge you to point out a single message in this forum supporting the
>>censorship of liars on the basis of content. 

>    Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.

	That, as expected, is false.

	I supported ONLY stopping a website from violating copyright.  
	
	But then of course, holohuggers always lie.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:03 PDT 1996
Article: 49126 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What are your views of Jews?
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:30:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4rt1ta$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 20:33:08 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree says:
>In response to the baron's words of wisdom: 
>As usual the baoron resumes to speak for too many, while not realizing 
>that he only possessess one opinion; HIS OWN!


>Richard Schultz wrote:
>> 
>> Alexander Baron (A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> 
>> : This is typical Exterminationist sophistry; most people (including
>> : Revisionists) don't hate "the Jews" but they are utterly sick to death of
>> : their whining and wailing.

>Yeah, baron, and we are also sick and tired of you. 

	Another "we" heard from.  An old fart imagining he has membership in
some group that approves of his posts.  

Why don't you get 
>a job taking care of the Queen's horses?

	You took a great fall?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:30:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
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On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:06:36 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:


>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden 

>We are still waiting to see it. You have yet to provide such
>"physical evidence" which would pass the "revisionist" standards
>applied when evidence to the Holocaust is given.

>Provide it, or shut up.

>As long as you don't provide it, you are also "proving" (by
>an extension of your "revisionist arguments") that Dresden was
>not bombed.

	I have pointed to the available physical evidence that does not need one
word of testimony to support the event.  Apparently you can not read it.


># of mass extermination at Belsen.

>I think you're confusing Belsen and Belzec. Please check this
>before you're making further claims about Belsen (which are, of
>course, irrelevant to Belzec).
	
	You are attempting to SUBSTITUTE Belzec for Belsen, Belsen being what
has been under discussion.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:05 PDT 1996
Article: 49128 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:30:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 07 Jul 96 19:38:40, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[To Alec Grynspan] [Sat 06 Jul 96 21:32][Sun 07 Jul 96 19:12][0]*>

> >> entailed bombing the railway lines leading to Auschwitz.  Later
> >> it was extended to include bombing also the gas chambers and
> >> the crematoria."  Dawidowicz; "What is the Use of Jewish
> >> History?"; page 169

> mnc>     Explain it to Alec, not me.  He is the one who does not
> mnc> understand what he is supporting.

>Ahhh, but I *DO* understand, Matt.

>There you have others supporting my statements - that the allies
>were asked to bomb the gas chambers before the end of the war.

	As I said, "The LAST time I heard this," which is quite unrelated to
more recent posts.  

>Now - why would somebody refuse to do so, knowing the microscopic
>cost and the magnitude of the Nazi hysteria for exterminating the
>Jews?

	Because iron bombs would have had to destroy everything in sight in
order to get those four buildings.  

>Look up the State Department's reasoning as to why it should
>continue.

>Simple research, Matt! After you've done some research, I'll have
>the free time to defeat you - errr - debate you.

	Why do you not post the "reasoning" since you know it?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:06 PDT 1996
Article: 49129 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:48:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 13:21:05 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein) wrote:

>> Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>> lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>> the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.

>And, as you indicated in another thread, Mr. Stein, Matt Giwer's
>intention was to get the complete site taken down, not just the libel in
>question.

>Matt Giwer also posted messages indicating that he was going to try to
>get another site taken down for violation of copyright.  I note for the
>record that, in commenting on this copyright terrorism at the time, I
>explicitly refused to go tit-for-tat by notifying Disney's lawyers about
>the appropriated images on _his_ web pages.  (I think it was Disney;
>it might have been a Bloom County gif or something like that.)

>But perhaps DvdThomas will claim that Matt Giwer's _goal_ was to
>_eliminate_ censorship, and he was simply choosing an unorthodox
>_means_, to wit:  _encouraging_ it...

	But as with all holohuggers are you are liar.

	My complaint was legally with copyright violation.

	As to the libel, Alec Grynspan has "testified" to that and Davey-girl
has been too busy selling machine tools to participated lately.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:06 PDT 1996
Article: 49134 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:34:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Jul 1996 03:24:18 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>  wrote:
>>angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>
>>>>        When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>>wrong.   
>>>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
>>>>        I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  

>    Last time I looked appeal to authority was still a fallacy.

	This is not an appeal, it it clearly a reference to good company to be
in as is stated.  Douglas may or may not be (have been) correct.  Your
lack fo substantive refutation is another volume in the ongoing
discussion.  

>>>I fail to see why. 
>>
>>>I have asked before and I'll ask again (please note, these are not 
>>>rhetorical questions and I would welcome the views of any readers) :-
>>
>>>A.
>>>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute 
>>>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?
>>
>>	They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
>>civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.

>    Although it is not permitted in the US, ex post facto establishment of
>penalties for acts which were criminal before the act is a more debatable
>matter.  Perhaps Mr. Giwer would care to cite the code which defines
>"civilized" other than his "Because!  I!  Say!  So!" 

	Civilized means, among other things, countries that do not permit ex
post facto laws to be enacted.  Of course you, being neutral on the
matter, would agree with any US law retroactively making brain sucking
abortions equal to murder and mandating execution of the doctors who
performed it and the women who paid for these murders.  

	But of course you would support such a law because you have no problem
with brain-sucking and the like.

	You would also have no problem wtih executing those who let blacks die
of syphillis without treatment because they wanted to study the progress
of the disease.  We have a Surgeon General nominee in need of execution
under that law.  

	These are clearly two different examples and politically opposed.  I can
give you more if you would like.  (How about using the FBI against
political enemies as a capital offense?)   But then you will go to any
effort you can to exonorate the idiots you pretend to support in public
but will question in private.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:07 PDT 1996
Article: 49135 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben's Auschwitz Diet...
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:00:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:20 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
wrote:

>In <4rnhq4$i03@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>>On 6 Jul 1996 04:00:08 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
>>OBC) wrote:

>>>Archive/File: orgs/german/farben.ig farben.002
>>>Last-modified: 1993/10/24
>>>See Also: holocaust diet.01

>>>   I.G. Auschwitz: I.G. Farben's Buna (synthetic rubber) division, built
>>>   near the site of the Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II concentration
>>>   camps. (Farben eventually built their own corporate concentration
>>>   camp at the site, to eliminate the need to march prisoners several
>>>   miles to and from the Buna plant every day, as had been the practice.
>>>   It was known as Monowitz, and had a sign over the gate which read
>>>   "Arbeit Macht Frei.")

>>>[Editor's note: I understand that the "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign can be seen
>>>today over the gate at Auschwitz I - this raises the question of whether or
>>>not there were more than one, or if the one the author mentions was moved to
>>>Auschwitz I at a later date, or if the author was simply incorrect. knm]

>>>   "Starvation was a permanent guest at Auschwitz.  The diet fed to I.G.
>>>   Auschwitz inmates, which included the famous 'Buna Soup' - a
>>>   nutritional aid not available to other prisoners - resulted in an
>>>   average weight loss for each individual of about six and a half to
>>>   nine pounds a week.  At the end of a month, the change in the
>>>   prisoner's appearance was marked; at the end of two months, the
>>>   inmates were not recognizable except as caricatures formed of skin,
>>>   bones, and practically no flesh; after three months, they were either
>>>   dead or so unfit for work that they were marked for release to the
>>>   gas chambers at Birkenau.  Two physicians who studied the effect of
>>>   the I.G.  diet on the inmates noticed that 'the normally nourished
>>>   prisoner at Buna could make up the deficiency by his own body for a
>>>   period of three months....The prisoners were condemned to burn up
>>>   their own body weight while working and, providing no infections
>>>   occurred, finally died of exhaustion.'">>   others - typical SS Auschwitz punishment reports> (Borkin, 125)


>>>                            Work Cited

>>>   Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York: 
>>>   The Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company. 

>>	It is rather laughable that anyone would believe this kind of story.  

>The Giwer-troll provides further corroboration of Mike Stein's
>assessment in another thread that he (the troll)  lacks the intellect,
>intelligence or comprehension skills to be able to contribute in any
>meaningful way in a discussion of the history of the Holocaust.  

>If anything is laughable it is that the troll deludes himself by
>thinking that he is capable of participating in any debate.

>[balance snipped]

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT

1/12/85 
     According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had seen "fourteen foot flames" shooting out of the
chimneys of crematorium at Auschwitz, and that he was able to tell
whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish Hungarians or skinnyJewish
Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr.
Friedman reversed himself upon being presented with details of
crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings.
Mr. Friedman then made the startling confession that his entire
testimony was based on what he had been told by others. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:08 PDT 1996
Article: 49136 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:01:44 GMT
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On Mon, 08 Jul 96 12:31:32 GMT, @stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: wrote:
>:>[Weakminded drivel cleared]

>:>I don't think that you have any say in a discussion on how to react
>:>on your spams, Mr. Giwer. Apart from that, out of sheer curiosity,
>:>did you understand anything of my essay? If you want to hold up
>:>your "IQ163" in front of those you call "lurkers", you should at
>:>least try to produce a coherent answer...

>:You are too new to this conference to know but I was specifically asked
>:my IQ and I answered the question.

>If your mind really were so well-oiled as you claim, you would have noticed that
>I didn't ask "Where do the IQ163 come from?" but "Would you please
>answer in a way that your claim of IQ163 looks to be more than an involuntary
>self-satire?" You prove over and over again, that you are not able to read
>thoroughly, and therefore you are not qualified to comment upon historical
>subjects. Apart from that, trying to imply that I am less qualified to contribute
>to alt.revisionism because I'm "to new to this conference" his amusing.
>Assuming that the Old is better per se is an early modern concept...

>Nele

	IF you had a measurable IQ, son of Jew hating murders, you would not be
posting this nonsense.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:08 PDT 1996
Article: 49137 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:05:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 09:42:30 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         Cite the migration.
>> 

>Casimir the Great of Poland invited the Jews to come to Poland to form a
>middle class. 

	Buzzer there.
	
	That was nearly 1000 years after there was anyone to invite.  They were
not invited from "palestine" but from other countries long after (400
years) after the Judeans were supposed to have migrated.  

>They spread to Russia from there, since Poland virtually controlled
>Russia and Eastern Europe.

>To learn the date, look up Casimir the Great of Poland.

	Yes, the book is titled POLAND.   I read it.  

>Matt - your brain cells are getting flabby. Too much Dahlman-baiting and
>trolling gets to you after a while. You need some solid debating
>exercise.

	You are pretending to what you do not know and are becoming a holohugger
with each succeeding post.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:09 PDT 1996
Article: 49158 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Seven Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 4)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:46 GMT
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On 6 Jul 1996 19:24:58 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>	Not only did Matt Giwer refuse to answer the questions Ken asked, he
>seems to have posted a copyright violation (i.e. the Monty Python spam sketch).

>	Actually, if Giwer posted an answer to even one of Ken's questions, I
>would be amazed. If he answered two or more... naah, that's asking too much of
>Giwer.

	As he could not read the answer what would be the point?  

>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>           Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
>                    George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
>                       _The Rejected Statement_




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:10 PDT 1996
Article: 49164 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for Matt Giwer
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:58:22 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>Once again, I ask this question. You said:

>In article <4rnjtq$r8t@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> >>> In fact his policy grew from his experience commanding the garrison at
>> >>> Vicksberg.  There he became appalled by the civilian response to his


>I responded with:
>> >In article , 
>> >schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> >>Interesting statements. Where did you get the idea that "scorched earth"
>> >>came from Vicksburg? (Note spelling.) It just so happens that I'm reading
>> >>a few books on the very subject right now, and NONE of them come to the
>> >>same conclusion that you do.
> 
>For one thing, the scorched earth policy came from SHERMAN, not Grant.
> 
>So are you going to respond to my direct question? It is NOT insulting, it
>is NOT a personal attack. It is a simple question.

	I am talking about Sherman also.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:11 PDT 1996
Article: 49165 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:20 GMT
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On 6 Jul 1996 19:29:30 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>	It is unclear what a schwarte is doing pointing here.  

>	I think Mattie Giwer needs to lie down, as he is even *more* confused
>than ever.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 




>	Derek

>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>           Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
>                    George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
>                       _The Rejected Statement_




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:11 PDT 1996
Article: 49167 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
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On 7 Jul 1996 05:38:39 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>Equinox  wrote:

>[nerve gas question of unclear intent deleted]

	There was no nerve gas question.  

>>	It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>>had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>>
>>	But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>>likely agent.

>    Mr. Giwer has demonstrably misunderstood the descriptions.

	What is there about death in any time frame from instantaneous to 20
minutes have I not understood?  

>>	When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>>collapsed.  

>    Mr. Giwer has misread so many things that it is not clear how he can
>be capable of forming any valid opinion about any of this.  He neither
>understands nor remembers what he reads.

	When lacking in substance ... 





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49169 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
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On Sun, 07 Jul 96 19:18:00 +0100, angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS
MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes

>>Equinox  wrote:
>
>>>My question is this; how can anyone doubt the extensive stocks of
>>>nerve gas in the Nazi inventory? ... How can this be explained away?

>>It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I 
>>had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>>But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the 
>>likely agent.  
>>When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards 
>>collapsed.  

>It is indubitably the case that Nazi Germany disposed of stocks of the 
>nerve agent GA (Tabun). The much-improved GB (Sarin) was available in 
>only limited quantities, while the further improved GD (Soman) was never
>produced on any scale. VX, mentioned by the original poster, was a 
>British post-war development derived from insecticides and vastly 
>improved in lethality and especially persistence over the primitive GA.

	What is with you folks?  You reply to a post of mine with an answer that
has no relationship to anything I posted.  You are the second.  Are you
unable to answer the mail?   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 07:37:13 PDT 1996
Article: 49171 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:16:43 GMT
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On 8 Jul 1996 17:50:03 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4rkns4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Only a holohugger would take what I post as a "vile insult."  

>Only Mr. Giwer would defend his vile insults with more insults, but
>he is not even fooling himself.


>	Only a Nazi would take a permanent worldwide economic boycott of
>	Germany at the depths of the Depression as a threat.  

>Only an ignoramus would characterize the attempted boycott as
>unprovoked.  Only an ignoramus would characterize the failed boycott
>as a real threat.

>And only Mr. Giwer would imply that I have ever labeled him a "Nazi"
>when all I have ever done is point out his enormous ignorance.

	You are of course invited to post the provocation and the dates or to
admit you are fantasizing and in need of professional care.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:24 PDT 1996
Article: 49172 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They probably thought they were being inoculated'
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:21:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Jul 1996 23:26:58 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>  
>>  	And all the while never thinking of a simple air bubble to cause an
>>  embolism and heart failure, death in five minutes.  Stupid Germans.  

>	You have a medical reference for this?  A pulmonary embolism would 
>take more than five minutes to form.  If it is not of sufficient size it could take 
>days to kill.  I am currently dealing with a case of a man who died of 
>undiagnosed embolisms.  He lived for at least ten days after the p.e began.

Dear jerkoff,

	The injections are reported to be directly to the heart.  Therefore they
form immediately.  Kapisch?

	Of course not.  

	You are a lying holohugger.  
	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:24 PDT 1996
Article: 49174 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!nntp2.backbone.olemiss.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:39:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
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ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) wrote:

>DvdThomas (dvdthomas@aol.com) wrote:
>: 
>: That's DIESEL.  Very few cars have diesel engines.  Was this the case in
>: this unreferenced citation?

>A great many cars in continental Europe have diesel engines.
>Diesel engines are available as options on cars manufactured by:
>Renault,
>Peugeot,
>Citroen,
>Fiat,
>Volkswagen,
>Mercedes,
>Volvo,
>Opel,
>Ford.

>There are millions of diesel powered passenger cars on the roads of
>Europe.

	The story was supposed to have happened in the US.  Diesel passenger
cars have a very bad reputation over here.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49176 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:09:52 GMT
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On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:32:36 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:


>CODOH@msn.com (Bradley Smith) writes:

># Even little Danny Keren 

>Hmm. "Little"? In terms of body weight? Compared to you? Sure.

>Hope I'm still "fit for work", nontheless? Can still do 'bout
>50 push-ups and 15 pull-ups, on a good day.

	I am, as are we all, so impressed.  

	A strong back is a terrible thing to waste.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49177 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: A TRICKY VIPER...
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:30:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 18:50:07 EDT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4rkpam$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>>Michael  Perin  wrote:

>>>Dear Luke,

>>>I saw a segment of C-SPAN around the middle of June when a caller from  
>>>Georgia reported a strange incident that she had seen in her local paper 
>>>relative to the Militia issue. She said that it was reported in her paper 
>>>that two supposed Militia members who had been arrested a few months 
>>>earlier because they had been planning to blow up federal buildings, were 
>>>in fact, BATF/FBI agents, and that the whole thing was a set up hoax!
>>>Although the arrests of these hoaxsters made the headlines all accross the

>>>country, the fact that they were federal agents posing as Militia members 
>>>in order to discredit the Militia movement was completely ignored by the 
>>>national media. 

>>	And what has come out about this "Viper Militia" so far does not make
>>much sense.  

>I see!  Getting wiped out and humiliated in the Holocaust discussion, so the
>Giwer-bot decides to troll the militia issue.  What an unmitigated defeat
>the Giwer-loser has suffered.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT

1/12/85 
     According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had seen "fourteen foot flames" shooting out of the
chimneys of crematorium at Auschwitz, and that he was able to tell
whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish Hungarians or skinnyJewish
Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr.
Friedman reversed himself upon being presented with details of
crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings.
Mr. Friedman then made the startling confession that his entire
testimony was based on what he had been told by others. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49180 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:31:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 14:45:23 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <4rrrir$nu3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>> Jamie McCarthy wrote on July 7
>> 
>> > Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the
>> > Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys"
>> 
>> >Ceacaa then went on to write a lot of verbiage about the >photograph:
>> words without any apparent point or conclusion.  

>[Mr. Allen's denier drivel snipped]

>> In short, the three boxes are just that, three boxes of
>> roofing material laid out at the job site. 

>Well, this pretty much confirms that Mr. Allen is simply grasping at
>straws now.  What _evidence_ does he have that the "little chimneys" are
>"boxes of roofing material?" None. How does Mr. Allen explain that these
>"boxes of roofing material" can be seen on the roof of L.Keller 1 in the
>USAAF aerial photo of August 1944- a _year and a half_ later? He can't.
>Given that there is a plethora of photgraphic, documentary, and eyewitness
>evidence that descibes these "little chimneys" as part of the Zyklon B
>introduction column system. 

	On the aerial photo on Nizkor that is in this time frame there are FOUR
patches that are much too LARGE to be the THREE LITTLE chimneys beyond
the fact that they are neither on the center line nor in a straight
line.  

	It would behoove you to post the aerial photo you are talking about as
it is not that one.  

>Occam's Razor would have us opt for the _simplest_ explination for their
>existance: they were part of the Zyklon B introduction column and NOT
>"boxes ofroofing material" that just happened to be left on the roof for
>18 months. 

	The simplest explanation is that the marks on the aerial photos have
nothing whatsoever to do with what is being discussed in this thread.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:28 PDT 1996
Article: 49181 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:31:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Jul 1996 04:00:42 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>As I have some difficulties with your slang, I didn't first understood
>>>>>what you told with "mess of psyrinks". All the psychiatrists that I
>>>>>can poll are among the firsts classified in the contests for the
>>>>>hospitals (for example, 5, 8 or 11 among 260). The most part of the
>>>>>French psychiatrists pass this examination. These that I know are
>>>>>always classified in the first quarter.
>>
>>>>>But this pedigree has nothing to do with your claim: that men can't
>>>>>scream only in fear of death. It is ridiculous, and it remains
>>>>>ridiculous. I don't find you very likeable, but since I had my own
>>>>>experience, I hope that you will never try it yourself.
>>
>>>>	I have serious problems with your restatement also.  I did not say can
>>>>not anything.  I said do not.  I have no idea what you are trying to say
>>>>with "only in fear of".
>>
>>>Try "only when afraid of dying" instead of "only in fear of death". Is
>>>it clearer?
>>
>>>>But primarily, I was questioning that you "polled" anyone and implying
>>>>that you made it up.  
>>
>>>>Is that clear enough?
>>
>>>Yes. I had my own experience of a such situation, but I'm lying. I
>>>told you to read the book from the French headsman in 1792, and
>>>another books from this time, but you wan't. I told you to see the TV
>>>reports 1/4h after the Manchester's bombing, but you didn't see what I
>>>saw. The testimonies from the WWII are more recent, but faked. I can
>>>ask a dozen of psychiatrists if it is likely (that a man will scream
>>>when afraid of dying), but what I will report will be made up.
>>
>>>It's very clear. You don't have even the beginning of an argument. You
>>>have only an opinion and use it to tell that all the testimonies of
>>>the gassings (of men) are faked. On the top, you don't know if a
>>>gassing was painful after some seconds for the victims.
>>
>>	And all of this simply because I noted the ready accessability of a
>>dozen psychologists to poll?  
>>
>>	You don't even realize that little girls practice screaming.  

>    Nothing in Dr. Bilik's post allows this as a valid logical conclusion.


>>You don't even realize that most men know as much about how to scream as
>>how to yodel.

>    I was able to yodel the first time I tried it though I admit that I
>might be unusual.  Screaming is much easier. 

>    Mr. Giwer is clearly projecting his own handicaps upon other people. 
>Unless he thinks the pitch is significant, and that what men do ought to
>be called "yelling?"  Well, Mr. Giwer has already amply demonstrated the
>"paupacy" of his skills in the English language.  What's one more example?

	You are still playing the fool on this one in your pretension that you
actually know women whose speaking voice is in the frequency range of a
scream.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:31:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4rt1ug$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-05.ix.netcom.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:59:48 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:


>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  
># I had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>#
># But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
># likely agent.  

>What "times involved"? What on earth are you talking about?

	Stop the heart and five to ten minutes is the time to death, with five
minutes being most certainly the onset of irreversable brain damage.
But you know that.  

>Back to your rubbish of the HCN "taking too long to evaporate"?

	Evidence of that was posted here in the "greater part of" technical
report on it, noting that "greater part of" is a technical term for
"half of" in english indicating an exponentially decaying release.  That
post lead to 6-12 hours as the 99% release time.

	But you know that.  

># When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of
># cards collapsed.  

>So, no gassings in US prisons also? They also use cyanide, right?

	No Zykon B used there.  

>Get a grip, Giwer.

	Repeat after me, A computer scientist is an applied mathematician not a
scientist save in title.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:30 PDT 1996
Article: 49184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:31:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4rt1uj$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 17:06:17 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>ANGUS MCLELLAN wrote:

>> So, why not "plain old cyanide" ?

>The information has been posted many times before, including,
>among other things, a direct comparison between Sarin as a
>representative nerve gas and HCN in the Zyklon B form as well
>as a list of most of the chemical agents available at the
>time and why HCN would still be a good choice.

>However Matt Giwer, in a fit of Raven's Myopia (tm) has seen
>fit to not have seen these and when he does, responds to only
>a single point with a non-sequitor.

	You are still addressing your own straw man that has nothing to do with
what I posted.  

	Continue and you might appear self-aware some day.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:31 PDT 1996
Article: 49185 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rampant Irony Deficiency Alert
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:13:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-05.ix.netcom.com
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 06:58:59 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4qo11m$kob@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>>         Nice try, fatbroad.

>Mr. Giwer continues to show respect for those with differing opinions.
> 
>Sara

	What is your problem, Schwartze?  

	Are you as fat as she is?   
	
	Whatever you would like.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:32 PDT 1996
Article: 49188 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:49188 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:152 alt.usenet.kooks:26688

On 7 Jul 1996 06:24:16 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>	Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>>>>how to stop it all?  
>>
>>>    If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
>>>lying and stop trolling.  That is _my_ description of how to stop it all. 
>>>It is that simple.
>>
>>>    Especially since you are not even competent at trolling.  Words have
>>>meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
>>>Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess.  And you misread and lied about my
>>>statements.  Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
>>>seriously think it will help.
>>
>>	Care do name his book that I am referring to?  

>    If you cannot remember the name of the book, which was given here
>within the past few weeks, it is only more evidence that your mind is not
>capable of dealing with the material presented here.

	The title was given only by me.  It is doubtful any of you folks even
heard of the man before I mentioned him.  And I haven't seen a one of
you post a word indicating you understand its relevence.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:40 PDT 1996
Article: 49193 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:30:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:27:08 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree, can't keep his trap shut about lil tommy numbnuts:
>What is the Moron up to now? Is he doing Gywer's thing? Spamming all 
>over the internet? Is this his way of discussing the Holocaust? Must 
>be, he hasn't been able to come up with anything except shoes made in 
>China by Jooos for The Holocaust Museums.
>This takes real Moron, brain-power. Yuk-Yuk-cackle!  :-)
>your pal,
>Chuck
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT

1/12/85 
     According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had seen "fourteen foot flames" shooting out of the
chimneys of crematorium at Auschwitz, and that he was able to tell
whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish Hungarians or skinnyJewish
Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr.
Friedman reversed himself upon being presented with details of
crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings.
Mr. Friedman then made the startling confession that his entire
testimony was based on what he had been told by others. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 17:13:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49278 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:02:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4rt3or$avn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4rknub$m1q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rlmc8$oeu@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rq01t$1nda@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-05.ix.netcom.com
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On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 18:55:49 EDT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4rlmc8$oeu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>said:

>>
>>Rich Graves continues his one-note song of lying:

>>>Oh, as soon as they get media attention, they'll be back. Only problem
>>is,
>>>it's all a lie. The valleynet.net/valleynet.com trademark dispute had
>>>nothing to do with the content of the CODOH site.

>>The trademark dispute led to a name change that went into effect on July
>>1st, and was advertised at the top of CODOH's home page.  That is one
>>issue.

>>The CODOH web site was unplugged by the server at about midnight on July
>>3rd, for reasons that have not been provided.  That is the second issue.

>Bullshit.  It was unplugged because Smith, like the craven little liar he
>is, failed to live up to the terms of his agreement.  And it wasn't done
>without warning.  And it had nothing to do with censorship.  And you know
>that Mr. Thomas.

	McFly, as with all holohuggers, lies, imagines, creates, any and every
reality he can to support not only this incredible and unfounded story
but also all the stories of his favorite holocaust.  

	And to think this man claims a half century of life on this planet.  

	It is people like this who vote Democrate.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 17:13:28 PDT 1996
Article: 49285 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.stealth.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What are your views of Jews?
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4rs71s$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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On 7 Jul 1996 13:15:50 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
wrote:

>Alexander Baron (A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk) wrote:

>: This is typical Exterminationist sophistry; most people (including 
>: Revisionists) don't hate "the Jews" but they are utterly sick to death of 
>: their whining and wailing.

>Are most people sick of the wailing of all Jews, some Jews, most Jews, or
>just the Organised [tm] ones?  Is there a special Organised Jewry whining
>and wailing squadron?

	Try www.wiesenthal.com for openers.  It appears to be organized.  Then
there is the USHMM which also appears organized.  Then the ADL, JDL, you
get the idea.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:50 PDT 1996
Article: 49303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:05:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 11:22:06 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:

>> Bullshit. It was unplugged because Smith, like the craven little liar
>> he is, failed to live up to the terms of his agreement. And it wasn't
>> done without warning. And it had nothing to do with censorship. And
>> you know that Mr. Thomas.

>Gord, do you know this?

>If so, you know more than anyone else on this newsgroup seems to know,
>and I'd like to know where your information is from.

>If not -- you're trolling, and I don't understand why.

	Because he is a holohugger and all holohugger posts are trolls.  

	Is that so hard to understand?  

	The holohugger crap like "buna soup" inspires one to laugh at all jokes
about institutional food that are elevated from jokes to true faith.  

	He is someone you should condemn as a troll ... but you never will save
for once or twice just to show you are objective.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:52 PDT 1996
Article: 49307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960708: Bombardment
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:22:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1639 alt.revisionism:49307

On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 13:40:23 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>I love the Zgrams that concern the net, because Ms. Rimland always
>manages to demonstrate her ignorance about the very medium she works in,
>to the amusement of all.

>zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

>> - and knowing that, in all likelihood, every word we write
>> gets stashed away somewhere in good old KGB style to be used in attempts
>> to hurt us later.

>Indeed -- the good old KGB-style DejaNews can call up dozens of your
>Zuendelgrams to anyone who simply types in "E Zundel Repost" into the
>query box on their home page:  http://www.dejanews.com/

>And in America!  A supposedly free country!  Who would have thought!

>> Additionally, last night the Zundelsite received some rather unpleasant
>> electronic bombardment.  Somebody put us on some 70+ automatic listserves

>It's pretty annoying, isn't it, Ms. Rimland?  Nizkor knows -- we got hit
>by the same attack over six months ago, except we got 200 listservs
>instead of just 70:

	It sounds like you are claiming responsibility for the retaliation.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:54 PDT 1996
Article: 49318 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.megalink.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Construction in Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:21:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:07:29 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>The Gywer turkey is spreading his nonsense about breakfast again. It's 
>spamming which isn't ethical, but then it's Gywer
>Chuck

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT

1/12/85 
     According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had seen "fourteen foot flames" shooting out of the
chimneys of crematorium at Auschwitz, and that he was able to tell
whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish Hungarians or skinnyJewish
Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr.
Friedman reversed himself upon being presented with details of
crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings.
Mr. Friedman then made the startling confession that his entire
testimony was based on what he had been told by others. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:55 PDT 1996
Article: 49319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:09:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4rt470$avn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-05.ix.netcom.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:06:37, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>Different strokes for different folks.  I don't have any problem with a 
>specific ISP deciding they don't care to be associated with the likes of 
>Bradley Smith, as I'm sure he'll be able to find one who will.  As long as he 
>can -- and from the number of bigoted websites out there, it's clear that 
>there are many, many ISPs who are not so fastidious -- he's not censored, but 
>merely inconvenienced.  Perhaps the folks who provide serviced for Stormfront, 
>or Ronald Schoedel's (former?) Christian Identity Online can serve his needs.  

>The convenience of Bradley Smith and the whole CODOH gang isn't very high on 
>my list of important things in life.   

	Wherever the hell you come from, hopefully not the USA, your interest in
freedom of speech is not welcome in the USA.  Go somewhere else.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49320 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:15:01 GMT
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On Mon, 08 Jul 96 20:22:22 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele
Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>	I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
>>hear as part of my posts on the subject.  If you disagree with those on
>>Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.

>How about working on some real historical sources and presenting any support
>for the following idiotic claim:

	It is good to see someone on the holohugger side trashing Nizkor and the
Gang of Six for a change.
	
	I do agree with you, they are a worthless source.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:58 PDT 1996
Article: 49322 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:24:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:30:32 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Nele Abels wrote:
>> 
>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> >       Anyone want to explain this one?
>> 
>> No, no. How about explaining this:
>> 
>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> [...]
>> >>Race neutral?  I'm sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>> >>who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>> >>anything about National Socialism and its history.
>> 
>> Your silence is telling, Mr. Giwertroll. Come on, were is your evidence? I will consider
>> any silence as your admitting that you have been babbling on things you don't know
>> anything about and will react accordingly.

>I believe a great deal of things are being admitted right now...

>Looks like Matt decamped.  Pity.  I was ready to reel him in yet again.

	Your mother hated Jews and your father killed them with his one hands.

	So what more do you want?  
	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49360 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUL 3-4: 11.1% / 20%
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:16:42 GMT
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Lines: 20
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 11:47:12 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca wrote:

>>          Articles from Matt Giwer: 49 (11.1%)

>Well, it looks like the Giwer is getting back to tolerable levels:
>twenty-five a day, or so.

>Is it time to declare the crisis over and try to get on with the
>discussions on this group as normal?

	I apologize for my inadequacy.  
	
	The holohugging spamming has not abated. 

	I shall have to work harder.   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:28 PDT 1996
Article: 49362 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:53:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 9 Jul 1996 13:12:08 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>On 7 Jul 1996 06:36:15 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>># Anyone want to explain this one? 
>>>>
>>>>>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]
>>>>
>>>>>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing? 
>>>>>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>>>>>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>>>>>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange" 
>>>>>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?
>>>>
>>>>	Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
>>>>evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.
>>
>>>    Gosh, there is physical evidence of a burned Chicago.  Guess it was
>>>firebombed.
>>
>>	I have been over this territory before.  You have not been paying
>>attention.  There are records of the mission planning, the mission
>>briefings, 

>    Writing down testimony does not make it a document, remember?  That
>was your response about the letter to Rauff.

>    Perhaps you would like to quote from them where they say that the city
>would be firebombed, not just bombed?  Got a reference?  I thought not.

	Sorry about that but it was announced in all the newspapers at the time
that the intention was to cause a firestorm and the announcement was
that it was successful.  Made all the headlines.  What have you missed?


>    But even then, we would have to ask if this could not have been just a
>morbid sense of humor?  Got a chain of custody for those mission records? 

	Yes.  

>It is only one bombing mission out of many.  It is an anomaly just as you
>say the Vergasungskeller memo was an anomaly.  Are we not required to look
>for alternative explanations of anomalies like this?  Have you done so?

	You would attempt to compare literally thousands of mission records and
many press releases to one anomaly.  You are playing a fools game.  

>number reels of bomb site films associated with the mission,
>>before and after reconnaisance pictures with associated reel numbers
>>related to the mission.  There are inventory records of the bombs
>>assigned to the mission.  
>>
>>	All of it points to the smoking gun, physical evidence of aerial
>>bombardment.  
>>
>>	Now where were you when I recited the above last time?  Bad news feed?  

>    Whee, there was aerial bombardment of many cities.  If mission records
>of bombings are sufficient evidence of firebombing, then every city in
>Europe had a Dresden-style barbecue, obviously. 

>    Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow is looking guiltier all the time.

	You are playing a fool's game which you should not have started.

	You have cider in your eye.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49367 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Christians 'take it like a man'
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:35:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 09 Jul 96 12:36:13 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele
Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>	But in comparison you will not the difference between my articles on the
>>homosexual encounter of Jesus and the multiple idols of the Israelites
>>you will see the same thing.  The former gets zero response.  The latter
>>garners all kinds of accusations.

>Bah, beides alte Hüte...but know that you talk about "zero response":

>>: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>:
>>: >         As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>>: > Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>>: > democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>>: > work.  It is race neutral.

>I've been waiting for days now. When will Mr. Giwer cough up some evidence for this
>ridiculous and ignorant claim. Or has he _again_ been babbling about things he doesn't
>know anything about?

	You are a self proclaimed German.

	You and / or your parents were responsible for murdering Jews.  

	Why do you not admit your guilt and get it over with?

	Perhaps you could kill yourself in atonement for the evils of your
parents.  It would be the least you could do.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:30 PDT 1996
Article: 49375 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:59:36 GMT
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On Tue, 09 Jul 96 17:04:11 GMT, @stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>	You are trying a fool's game and not answering the mail.

>Funny that you mention it. Would you mind stopping your fool's game and answer this
>teeny-weeny question:

>Where in national socialist writings did you find the basis for your claim that the Nazis
>were not racist?

	As a German whose parents wanted to murder all Jews you have little room
to ask such questions.

	Your parents were murders as were your grandparents and you have no room
to talk until you apologize for their murders before this group and to
tell us all that you have accused them of being murderers to their
faces.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:31 PDT 1996
Article: 49376 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:25:04 GMT
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On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:34:10 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>What
>> the hell, even if they did, the Jews don't want 250,000 individual acts
>> of life saving heroism even remembered.  So much for your family of
>> fools.

>So a major movie producer makes Schindler's List? Hint - he wasn't
>Buddhist.

	No, he is a Jew.  What is your point?  And he need an Academy Award
where the politics of Hollywood will not give an AW to who simplly
pander to us rabble and make the most successful movies in history.  

	Beyond that, what is your question?   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:32 PDT 1996
Article: 49377 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:12:00 GMT
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On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:15:02 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># I have pointed to the available physical evidence that
># does not need one word of testimony to support the event.  

>Such physical evidence exists for the Holocaust as well.
>But you must know that.

	You know it does not.  

	There is not one picture of anyone on the roof of any building much less
pouring in anything.  But you know that.  

	There is not one picture of any result from any "gas chamber" when
opened but you know that.

	There is sworn testimony of flesh and clothing forming gelatinous masses
after exposure to HCN but you know that.  

	Your fucking mass gassing is a sham and you DO know that.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:33 PDT 1996
Article: 49381 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who would be Gannon?
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:08:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 8 Jul 1996 23:16:57 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4rnjea$2ko@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Ken McVay believes he can buy his way into the tribe and has yet
>	to realize there is no way to do so.  

>Mr. Giwer believes he can provoke Mr. McVay with his vile insults and
>has yet to realize there is no way to do so.

	McVay is a self aggrandizing fool who permits hired underlings to speak
for him while he refuses to speak for himself.  

	I can not change that.  You can not change that.

	Only he can change that.   

	Get used to it.  

	He is a hind tit on the belly of the internet.  His flunkies defend him
while he pretends to hide behind a killfile.  

	Get used to the asshole you are defending some day.  

	He is an asshole and he has to "co" flunkies who pretend to speak out of
his ass.   

	Get over it.  

	And get used to it.

	He is not a clone, he is a clown.  

	He gets all the respect a clown is due.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:34 PDT 1996
Article: 49383 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:42:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 9 Jul 1996 02:12:32 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>  
>>  	Nice try but It is quite clear that I am talking about your mass
>>  extermination by gassing facilities within the camps.

>	Unfortunately that is exactly what the evidence you demand cannot 
>demonstrate.  It simply has little relevance to what you are disputing.

>	--YFE	

	This is amazing.

	An attorney admitting that the fundamental standards of evidence
required in a capital crime can not be produced because it never
existed.  

	It is amazing because he is a holohugger and knows that his beliefs do
not match the standards of his profession.  

	This is truly amazing.  
	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:34 PDT 1996
Article: 49385 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:21:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 14:33:12 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         You are pretending to what you do not know and are becoming a holohugger
>> with each succeeding post.

>Please try to debate, Matt. Remember - if you succeed in getting me mad,
>all you'll accomplish is getting me mad - and losing the war. Believe
>it! When I get mad, I *REALLY* go after somebody. I just got annoyed at
>Dahlman and see what I did.

	Please assume that I have gotten you really mad and 

	1) pulicize what you are going to do

	and
	
	2) do it.

	and as a minor third
	
	Please tell me why I should give a damn.  


	And I know how to finger NIC.  
	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:35 PDT 1996
Article: 49390 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Msgic ERCO
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:15:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	Is it not good?

	The holohuggers can invoke the term ERCO and claim that it was both a
dessicant and blue at the same time?

	And in all of that, the holohuggers can NOT produce one document as to
what ERCO is or what its color might be.

	Sounds very much like ERCO is Erkel some inane network sitcom.

	The holohuggers are all idiots.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:36 PDT 1996
Article: 49392 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Whacko Jew posting alert!
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:03:48 GMT
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 21:09:17 -0600, walt@walt.com (Walt the Wonder Boy)
wrote:

>In article <4rs726$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> >If the jews had not been born, the world would not be as advanced as it is
>> >today. I believe there should be a single day every year in which jews
>> >should be honored. I honor jews every day, period. If all races were this
>> >productive and this responsible for their actions and for the rights of
>> >others, we would not have racial hatred, high crime, or irresponsibility
>> >by members of certain groups. Racial conflict would be at a new all time
>> >low. There would be no reason to hate, only to love.
>> 
>>         From the people who gave genocide to the world.  

>Could you prove that, please?

>Thank you.

>Walt.

	Read your fucking bible, idiot.  

	It is all recorded there.

	What in the hell are you doing here without the slightest grouding in
the subject under discussion?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:37 PDT 1996
Article: 49395 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:53:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 118
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On 8 Jul 1996 23:34:51 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:14:30 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:30:54 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> >>         It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>>>> >> had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>         But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>>>> >> likely agent.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>         When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>>>> >> collapsed.
>>>> 
>>>> >Tabun was the first dedicated nerve agent, the second, Sarin, only
>>>> >having been produced in test quantities and the third, Soman, was in
>>>> >developement when the material was seized by the Soviets who were the first
>>>> >to actually produce it.  Tabun, Sarin and Soman have the NATO codenames
>>>> >GA, GB and GD.  Sarin was NATO's standard nerve agent until the developement
>>>> >of the V series nerve gasses.
>>>> 
>>>> >They were developed from insecticides and work by blocking
>>>> >neurotransmitters, essentially causing the nervous system to simply shut
>>>> >down and the body to die.  Field antidote is usually atropine which causes
>>>> >neurotransmitter release to increase, hopefully more than the nerve agent
>>>> >can block.
>>>> 
>>>>         You fail to make any points here.
>>
>>>I am providing background information so that the reader may render
>>>a somewhat informed judgement on the topic.  I'm well aware that putting
>>>things in context and providing information is a foreign concept to
>>>you, but I have no hope of ever making you acknowledge anything.
>>
>>
>>>> >Sarin has a very low natural detoxification level, thus can build up in the
>>>> >body to fatal levels.  It is persistant in enclosed structures and the
>>>> >recommended method of decontamination is by chemical treatment or live steam
>>>> >to accelerate the natural breakdown.  Left by itself it may last in
>>>> >significant concentrations for several days and also is denser than air,
>>>> >thus may tend to concentrate in low places (like cellars).
>>>> 
>>>> >Field use requires full protective gear (gas mask and enclosed sealed suit).
>>>> 
>>>> >Reasons Sarin might be used in a gas chamber:
>>>> 
>>>> >    Deadly as all hell (faster than Zyklon B, less concentration required)
>>>> 
>>>> >    Exposure to skin and inhalation both possibly fatal (Zyklon B usually
>>>> >     only fatal after inhalation)
>>>> 
>>>> >Reasons Sarin would be impractical in a gas chamber:
>>>> 
>>>> >    Full protective gear required by operators of chamber
>>>> 
>>>> >        -Zyklon B requires gas mask and gloves
>>>> 
>>>>         Save that the reported times to death are on the same order as those
>>>> reported for HCN.  I have read reports of everything from instantaneous
>>>> to two days.  They accumulate around 10-20 minutes.  That is nerve gas.
>>>> 
>>>>         I can not change that.
>>
>>>Nor can I change the fact that you so blatently omitted the subsequent reasons
>>>I posted as to why Zyklon B would be a technically and operationally better
>>>agent than a nerve agent such as Sarin.  Why don't you puzzle those reasons
>>>out for a while and then get back to me when you actually have something
>>>interesting to say other than insipid comments and non-sequitors?
>>
>>	I made one point, that the time frame for HCN deaths were on the same
>>order as nerve gas.  You went on to repeat a canned answer to something
>>I did not address.  At no time did I state that nerve gas would have
>>been a better choice.  
>>
>>	So how much did you want left in?  The point is very simple.  The time
>>frame for death from breathing cyanide and from nerve gas (and from
>>carbon monoxide for that matter) are all reported to be approximately
>>the same by the eyewitnesses.  
>>
>>	The point I was making, which has NOTHING whatever to do with "why
>>didn't they use nerve gas?," is that finding HCN in the same time frame
>>as nerve gas was my first serious indication that there was something
>>wrong with the stories based upon my assumption that that it had been
>>nerve gas.
>>
>>	To go further, it was later finding CO deaths on the same order as HCN
>>and nerve gas that indicated there was something seriously wrong with
>>the stories.  
>>
>>	Now if you would like to address the point I am making, please do so.  

>    The only thing I see wrong here is with your ability to read,
>understand, and evaluate what you read.  Zyklon will vary depending on
>room size, concentration, and temperature.  Witnesses will vary in their
>estimates of times.  Only a very stupid person would not take into
>consideration these very simple points.  You are not taking these very
>simple points into consideration.  The conclusion is left as exercise to
>the reader. 


	Sorry but the variations are from instantanious to two days with a
second application and you know that.  You have read all the crap about
the kill times here.

	You also know that the time to death in the majority of the "eyewitness"
testimonies vary from 10 to 20 minutes for both HCN and CO period, no
questions asked.  

	That makes them both equally lethal and you know that.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:37 PDT 1996
Article: 49400 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:28:48 GMT
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On 9 Jul 1996 02:31:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>  	As there is no recorded Israelite migration into the areas that were
>>  beyond the influence of the Roman Empire where the Eastern European Jews
>>  appear to have come from, it is unclear what objection you might have. 

>	That is incorrect.  In fact, one of the problems of Roman politics in the 
>east was the influence of Jews in the Parthian Empire.

	Self-aggrandizement was the worst problem the Romans faced.  

	Babylon had stomped them into the earth.  The Alexander came along and
did it again. 

	And then Rome came along and did it again and again and again.   

	Israel has never been more than a genocidal territory in the middle east
and of no concern for any rational person.

	Sorry about that but I read your "bible" which alternately exists and
does not exist.  

	Jews have the earliest recorded tradition of genocide.

	Fuck you too and the horse you rode in one.

	I am sick of the whining.  


 



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:38 PDT 1996
Article: 49402 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:58:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:16:28 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
># under oath that he had seen "fourteen foot flames" shooting out
># of the chimneys of crematorium at Auschwitz,

>Mike Stein had a long talk with a crematory operator. The guy
>said that this is a known phenomena, which even has a name 
>("candle").

	He admitted he lied under oath.  

	What more do you want?   

># and that he was able to tell whether the Nazis were burning fat
># Jewish Hungarians or skinny Jewish Poles by looking at the different
># colors of the smoke and flames coming out of the crematorium. 

>Yes. Can you prove to us, or convince us, that this is indeed 
>impossible? Namely, that burning fat may result in a different
>type of smoke and smell compared to burning flesh? I admit that
>I don't know. But how do you know it's impossible?

	He admitted he lied under oath.  

	What more do you want?   


># On cross-examination, however, Mr. Friedman reversed himself upon
># being presented with details of crematorium operation, and was
># forced to agree that perhaps Jews were not being burned in
># crematoria buildings.

>This, my 163-IQ-man, is a *revisionist interpretation*. Quote the
>whole, accurate text of his testimony. 

>What do you think the crematoria was built for? Heck, even you
>crazed "revisionists" don't deny Jews were cremated in the
>crematorium furnaces.

	He admitted he lied under oath.  

	What more do you want?   


># Mr. Friedman then made the startling confession that
># his entire testimony was based on what he had been told
># by others. 

>Again, bring the *exact and complete* text of what he said.

	He admitted he lied under oath.  

	What more do you want?   



>-Danny Keren.


>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.


	He admitted he lied under oath.  

	What more do you want?   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:39 PDT 1996
Article: 49403 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:43:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>
>>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>
>>>> >       There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>>> 
>>>>     There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>>> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>>> of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>>> course.
>>
>>>On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>>by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>>
>>	Did god provide the bomb sight films?  

>    Who put the caption on the films?  How do you know what town is down
>there?  Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood, saying
>"Dresden?"

	You are playing games.  Official records of reel nunbers assigned to
particular operations exist.  

>    And of course we would also have to ask if the films show the
>firestorm allegedly caused by that bombing, or whether even if they do it
>indicates a true causal connection rather than a coincidence involving
>Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow.

>    Then of course we must ask if there is a documented chain of custody
>on those films.

>    And what _were_ Steven Spielberg and the KGB doing on the day those
>films were made, hmn?

>    So when are you going to get around to providing physical evidence of
>this alleged allied firebombing of Dresden?  I see none.

	Sorry, Stone, you have made a terrible case.  Were there the slightest
fraction of the documentation of mass extermination gassing as there is
for Dresden, you folks would trot it out and make it squeal.  

	But you folks have no such trail of physical evidence.  

	I have outlined exactly what is equivalent but you folks can not find
even one picture of anyone on a roof much less pouring anything into a
hole.   You folks can not find a single picture of the results of
gassing while people are inside the "chamber" much less anything more
seriously incriminating.  And despite all of this the best you can
provide is what you consider "equally damning" pictures of people in
separate lines.  

	Give it up.  You don't have jack.  

	You are trying to play a game without a full deck.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:39 PDT 1996
Article: 49404 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:40:21 GMT
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On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:35:22 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:


>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

># It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
># professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever 
># the case may be, 

>Ah, that old inferiority complex kicks in. Perhaps you'll
>clarify your statement about me being an "impersonating professor"?

	Of course, attack the messenger, not the message.  

	It is so much easier.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:40 PDT 1996
Article: 49406 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rampant Irony Deficiency Alert
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:56:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 9 Jul 1996 16:41:49 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 06:58:59 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>: >In article <4qo11m$kob@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: >> 
>: >>         Nice try, fatbroad.
>: 
>: >Mr. Giwer continues to show respect for those with differing opinions.
>: 
>: 	What is your problem, Schwartze?  
>: 
>: 	Are you as fat as she is?   

>Mr. Giwer continues to demonstrate his devotion to rational, invective-
>free argument.

	That is the way it goes.

	You have a bitch hiding behind female immunity and men like you trying
to earn points to screw her should you be in her part of the world.

	This is really very transparent.

	We live in a sex neutral world.

	Sorry about that.

	Grow up and learn what is going on.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:41 PDT 1996
Article: 49407 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:01:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 20:25:00 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4r7ihe$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:


>>         I see, a 14 year old was considering publication and knew how to make
>> publication worthy changes.  The more you folks defend this, the more is
>> smells.  

>Why is this difficult to believe? Anne Frank wrote a stirring account of
>life in hiding during a terrible time. Her father encouraged her to edit
>it for possible publication after the War.

	You brain dead idiot.  This is a 14 year old you are extoling.  
 
>I see absolutely no reason why any thinking human being would not believe this.
> Oh, that's right.

	Of course, such literary talent from a 14 year oid.  Love it.

	Yuo are truly a fool.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:42 PDT 1996
Article: 49409 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:23:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:58:51 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> Um, pardon my skepticism, but I don't trust the Troll's word as far as I
>> can spit. He has, in the past, claimed a many great number of things. Most
>> (if not nearly all) inevevitably were exposed as lies and/or stupidities
>> on the Troll's part. He has no credibility whatsoever in my book.

>I assume you're talking about Giwer.

>> I do not
>> except anything from him as submissible for discussion. 

>Hm, that would parse either as "accept" or "except," depending on what
>you mean by "submissible for discussion."  Did you mean "accept"?

>> Here is the quote from the Nizkor archive, which references the
>> Breitweiser story.  I don't know whether in context the quote comes from
>> Conot or Naumann,

>Are we talking about Giwer's submission, the one immortalized by
>Greg Raven at ?

>If so -- the discrepancies are mostly due to Conot giving a "liberal"
>reading of Naumann which misinterprets him on several points.  Giwer
>contrasts the Naumann-through-Conot description with the various other
>descriptions given in the Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ, and (no surprise) finds
>several minor discrepancies, which he trumpets loudly.

>If one goes back to Naumann and reads the original, all the major
>discrepancies disappear, which is a serious defeat for the Giwer/Raven
>team of course -- hey, the disparate stories _do_ match up, I wonder
>why that is?  I'm going to do them a favor and Cc Raven a copy of this
>posting in email and let him stew about what to do about that page for
>a few days before I post what I have of Naumann.

	If nothing else, this post of yours has motivated me to produce a
version with the three different rather the two different presented in
that web page.  I will certainly find a was to cleanly present the
version where Hoess is watching it happen wearing a gas mask and death
is instantaneous.  

	You are a fucking fool to play this game with me.  

	And you holohuggers give me all the information I need.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:42 PDT 1996
Article: 49410 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:32:45 GMT
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On 9 Jul 1996 01:18:46 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>>  	Inspite of the Jews trying to imply prominence in the American
>>  Revolution (Cal.Gov. Pete Wilson as a Senator tried to introduce a
>>  bill to erect a statue to some remote Revolutionary character said to
>>  have been Jewish, boastings that some guy named Solomon from Philly
>>  financed the war, and machinations of Paul Reveres commanding officer
>>  being Jewish) the Jews role in the American Revolution was of such an
>>  extent it doesn't merit mention.

>	Jews served in and supported the American Revolution.  In fact a far 
>larger proportion of Jews served in the Continental Line than non-Jews (about 
>10% of the total Jewish population).  Had there been more in the United States, 
>Washington would have most grateful.  Haym Salomen's contribution to the 
>financing of the American Revolution is well-known.  While his financial 
>contribution may be over-stated to compensate for other contributions that polite 
>people did not mention in that era, he is hardly a remote figure.  But since you use 
>the name "Solomon" and refer to Philadelphia you are, no doubt referring to Lt. 
>Col. Solomon Bush, commander of the Thrid Regiment of Philadelphia 
>Associators.  This fine patriot received a disabling wound -- that later caused his 
>death -- protecting the rear guard of the Continental army at the battle of 
>Brandywine.   

>>  	The two little books mentioned are the "O.T." including the Torah
>>  and the wicked Talmud.

>	Your bigotry is showing again, you lousy Jew-hating chucnk of bovine 
>defecation.

	Minor question, which of the signers of the DOI was Jewish?  

	Another minor question, what are the names of the "jews" who were
against the revolution and what did they do?  

	Excuse me but that second question must have been too hard a question.
Would you like to try to rephrase it and answer in your own clever way?




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:43 PDT 1996
Article: 49416 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:32:48 GMT
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On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:50:41 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	Heres an interesting situation. Mr.Mittleman says the Jews would
>have made up 80 or more of the American artisans if it wasn't for them
>being barred from trade unions. 

>>As to the statement, 'One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he
>>(Hilberg) would profess the Jews have in America.' 
>>
>>	Danny Mittleman, staunch defender of anything Holocaust story responed:
>>    "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
>>reasons: 
>>    One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
>>unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
>>fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
>>College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
>>education levels."

>	And Yehuda Bauer says the Jews were responsible for the trade
>unions. 

>>VIII (a).  According to Jewish author Yehuda Bauer, in his book, "A
>>History of the Holocaust":
>>	"The growth of the American trade-union movement is due in large
>>measure to the leadership of it's many Jewish members."

>	One should expect a 'creative' excuse should be forth coming.

	All truths are true when it comes to jewish mythology.  

	It is antisemitic to compare truths and ask which is lying.

	You are being most unpleasant.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 08:10:59 PDT 1996
Article: 49418 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:51:49 GMT
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On 9 Jul 1996 02:09:57 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:

>>  	A smoking gun is usually considered physical evidence.

>	I take it that you are actively campaigning for the release of Mumia.

	Never heard of the person but I have no particular interest in the
notion LHO acted alone either.  
  
>>  	How about one picture of bodies inside a gas chamber after gassing as
>>  soon as the doors are opened?  How about about a long line of people
>>  carrying bodies out of a building?  How about a picture of someone
>>  pouring a can of something into a building from a hole in the roof?  

>>  	How about any photographs of the actual gassing process that 
>corresponds
>>  to the "testimony" but excluding people in lines upon arrival and bodies
>>  that do not indicate a cause of death?  How a significant fraction of
>>  those 2000-3000 tons of bone fragments around A-B?  

>	To what end?  The presence of bones would not prove gassing -- and 
>that is what you claim to be disputing.

	Purposeful mis-reading will get you nowhere.  

	I was referring to hundreds of bodies in a room immediately after the
gassing as you well know.  

	You may be a settlement attorney but you are not that bright outside you
field.  
  
>>  	And if one wishes to invoke secrecy as a reason for no pictures then one
>>  needs to produce specific orders against taking the kinds of pictures
>>  that I describe.  There appears to have been no orders against taking
>>  the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are excludable as
>>  being nonspecific to the gassing issue.  

>	I believe that such orders do exist.  Most of the extant pictures that I 
>know of were taken in contravention to specific orders.

	Your belief is not the issue.  The lack of such orders is the issue.  

	And any claim that the existing pictures are "damning" has to explain
why they were not prohibited.  

	But of course you have no such explanation.  You are a holohugger and
only have your beliefs to sustain you through life.  It must be pitiful,
the way you live.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 08:11:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49419 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:53:33 GMT
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On 9 Jul 1996 02:09:57 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>  	I have no idea what more to tell you folks about what constitutes
>>  physical evidence.  It appears quite obvious to me.


>	What you are asking for is a shooting gallery for any competent defense 
>lawyer.  You have indicated that you were a watcher of the O.J. trial. 

	Actually I indicated that I avoided it as much as possible.  But then
you holohuggers have no interest in the truth in any venue.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 08:11:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49422 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Genocide
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:06:11 GMT
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	There have been any objections to genocide on this newsgroup.

	It is amusing to note that so few have read their bibles to realize that
the Israelites have the first written record of genocide in human
history.  

	Do not believe me.

	Read your fine bible.

	Then get back to me.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 08:11:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49423 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:07:48 GMT
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On Tue, 09 Jul 96 12:32:13 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele
Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>	It is unclear what a schwarte is doing pointing here.

>It is unclear what you are doing at your computer. You should be in a library
>trying to finde some prove for this:

>>: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>:
>>: >         As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>>: > Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>>: > democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>>: > work.  It is race neutral.

>I've been waiting for days now. When will Mr. Giwer cough up some evidence for this
>ridiculous and ignorant claim. Or has he _again_ been babbling about things he doesn't
>know anything about?

	Considering your parents murdered Jews it is unclear what you are doing
in this NG.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 08:11:02 PDT 1996
Article: 49424 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:18:08 GMT
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On 8 Jul 1996 21:07:09 -0400, sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:

>Mr Hagen:

>Your remarks during this string have been very thoughtful.  I don't
>believe in burning heretics either.  I will defend with my life your right
>to believe anything you want.  You have no obligation to accept anything
>as true or false.

>But you have to come to grips with a very serious fact: no historian or 
>academic, who is not also pushing a neo-Nazi or similar agenda, seems to
>support your position.  The only people who seem to support your position
>are those persons with a strong political or personal bias either to
>rehabilitate Nazism, Hitler or facism or denounce its victims, i.e. Jews
>and other lesser races.  Much of the recvisionist thinking plays on
>earlier Nazi-style propoganda: i.e.  the Jews control the world.  

>Until serious mainstream academics come to support your position, your
>position will be viewed as part of the lunatic fringe, and justifiably so.

	Excuse me sir.  Mainstreme Acedemisians put their pants on one leg at a
time just like the rest of us and have to achieve the same standards as
anyone else in what they say.
	
	Anyone in the least familiar with academic politics (as in any other
power structure) knows that any position/title/chair is a bureaucratic
piece if shit.  

	I really (do not) hate to bust your bubble here but your blind
acceptance of such nonsense is almost embarraissing.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 10 08:11:03 PDT 1