The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1996/giwer.0696


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40523 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:54:38 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># It was noted you have no short hairs as the conviction was upon
># claiming to be close enough to determine the composition of
># doormats.

>Numerous amounts of human hair *were* taken from the victims and
>shipped to Germany. One document mentions 3 tons of hair. What
>do you suppose was done with it? All the hair that was found
>in Auschwitz - tons of it - which the SS didn't have time
>to take. What do you think was done with the hair?

	We are talking about Treblinka here.  NOTHING but trees were
found there.  But we do have a fraudlent statement of both
steaming and human hair doormats.  

>I recall that Yad-Vashem in Jerusalem has a mat, or small rug,
>made of human hair. Maybe a hot-shot 163-IQ former engineer
>and Holocaust expert like yourself wants to drop them a note
>and ask them about it?

	You recall something on the spur of the moment for this purpose
only.  

	THe larger point is that anyone close enough to see the dormat
could see it was not steam as you claimed in your other INVENTED
story.  

># I presumed he was hung.

>Pohl? Indeed he was. He was a very high-ranking SS officer.
>Mostly, he was guilty of the slave labor program in the camps.

	He was found GUILTY of STEAMING people to death and for making
doormats of human hair, as you know.  You are not going to change
this no matter how hard you try.  You "confusion" invention to
explain steam is bull.

	Would you like to move on to electrocution and vacuum chambers?

># And perhaps better explains why you do not
># wish to mail me a copy of what you claim to have.

>There are other reasons. Anyway, it's irrelevant to the
>discussion.

	The clear indication is that it contradicts what you are saying
about.

>I repeat my question: what are *all* the crimes Pohl was
>convicted of? Do you know, or don't you know?

	They are listed above and I have posted the references to the
Nuremberg records which support it.  ALL does not matter.  As
long as they include steaming and doormats in the same conviction
your fantasy is exposed.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40525 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:44:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31ac4eea.187349@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:

>	Okay, it's not a forgery. Giwer says no, Mittleman says no.

>	In that case we can point out that if the Jewish population of
>	Europe is said to have been 6,900,000 in 1919, then it increased
>	by an incredible rate that ended up at 11,000,000 by 1939, just
>	twenty years later.

>As usual, Mr. Moran does not know what he is talking about!  The
>article in question, if Mr. Moran had bothered to read it before
>shooting off his mouth, refers to the post-war threat of starvation
>to six million Ukrainian Jews.

	There is no mention of that in the original article, 

	They must have starved to death as there is no mention of any
geographic area with that many Jews in the Wannsee Protocol 23
years later which included only 5,000,000 in all of Russia.  

>That is why I always point out that Mr. Moran never lets facts or
>evidence interfere with his favorite pastime of Jew-bashing!

	But then it is very simple for you to do better.  Post the
evidence for your Ukaraine claim as at the moment it appears to
have been a very spur of the moment creation without thought.
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40527 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:17:44 GMT
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 
>> >It could well be said that Andersonville was a death camp in that many
>> >soldiers neadlessly died there, but Matt Giwer wants to insinuate (on
>> >the basis of a TV-movie)
>> 
>>         If fact, you lying asshole, I suggested that if the books were
>> too hard for you that you watch Gone with the Wind to see the
>> conditions civilians were living under.  

>Facinating concept.  Why bother studying for years in Egyptology when
>you can just go see "Cleopatra" and see what it was *really* like?

	If books were too hard for me, I might not know any better.  But
then it is only people interested in deliberate character
assassination who will consistently misrepresent what is said.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:16 PDT 1996
Article: 40530 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile existed, and therefore???
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:36:05 GMT
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         I have not said that I have excepted it in the least.  I have
>> presented it for what it is worth, one more eyewitness.  I think
>> you have read my opinion of eyewitnesses.

>Ummm! Not quite. Your memory is truly worse than a coarse sieve. You
>could not have gotten that material anywhere else and the timing is too
>good for your other trolls.

	You really need to do yourself a service and compare what I have
posted here with what was in those messages.  They bear zero
relationship.  Nothing I have said depends upon anything that was
in either message much less that I used him as a reference or
authority.  
 
>>         However, I did volunteer to me a voucher for his Righteious
>> Gentile status which lent greater weight to his messages than
>> otherwise.  I have no particular reason to run the actual

>Ummm - if you mean *I* volunteered such a status to you - not correct. I
>have made it clear here that he did not have such a status personally
>and might not have it at all.

	I heard the information from no one else.  HE never said such a
thing to me.  In fact at the time you mentioned it to me, I had
never heard of it.  To the best of my knowledge there were no
qualifications upon your statement.  

>> messages passed you as at no time did you represent yourself as
>> an expert on the subject.  And in fact you were the one who told
>> me the story of the mechanical fat collection system so I had no
>> reason to suspect you were one.

>Hunh?!?! What are you talking about? I don't rmember anything about
>describing any mechanical fat collection system to you - at least not as
>an actual mechanism that I would know about first-hand!

	Truly amazing.  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40534 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:28:34 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># But if it was that Mueller then Eichmann is exonerated and
># was murdered by Israel.

>Can you explain the brilliant reasoning in "since Eichmann
>reported to Head of the Gestapo Mueller, this means
>Eichmann was innocent"?

	Certainly.  The rank difference to make a direct report makes him
a staff officer, not a line officer.  As such he had no
independent authority to order anything.

	Not only that, it comes quite close to exonerating the Mueller
you claim it is as he says this Mueller LEARNED from this report
what Eichmann told this Mueller.  Certainly that suggests it was
as suprising to this Mueller as it was to Eichmann.  Otherwise we
have to posit an Eichmann who knew all about what was going on
yet still told the story as one of discovery.  

	It all clearly indicates that Eichmann had no idea what to expect
and unless we assume that he told his boss what his boss already
knew his boss did not know it either else there was no reason to
report it.  Otherwise it would have been a simple report that
people were following orders, not of what he had seen.  

	What is missing is the follow up to this report, that is, what
was done about it.  As we have a clearly shocked to the core
Eichmann and a Mueller who, by what was posted, he reported what
was happening (with the clear implication of a fact-finding
mission in those few words posted) it was a clearly shocking
discovery.  

	Further, in line with the first, as he clearly discovered
something he did not expect, he gave no orders to stop it.  Had
he line authority, he could have done that.  So in another case
we have evidence of a staff officer without command authority.  
 
===

	As to specifics of what you posted, it started wtih an answer,
not a question.  So we do not have that anwer in context.  If
your source omitted the question, there was a reason.  But it
does start off with "But I just know the following" indicating he
knew nothing more than what he saw in this one business trip
before that trip.

	He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could tell
religion is beyond me) that was four to five times the size of
the presumed courtroom where he was giving testimony yet they all
fit into a single van.

	He says he could not bring himself to look closely, even once,
which indicates no mental preparation for what he was seeing.
That is a very, very strange thing for a Lt. Col. NOT to do in
front of the grunts and the civilians he is visiting.  

	As to my suspicions that it was the wrong Mueller, "I just got
the hell out of there" is not, repeat NOT the response of anyone
with command authority.  In fact it is not the response of even a
staff officer who could bluff his way through enlisted and
civilian types on the Lt. Col. insignia alone.  

	Wbat in the hell was he running away from save a scene that he
was thoroughly unprepared for?  One for which he was all of this
time reporting to, that is, working for the Mueller you claim it
was without knowing what to expect?  How is that possible?  

	

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40535 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Part of an interesting document
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:15:44 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> 	The numbers refer document pages from the Nuremberg trials.

>>>>===

>>>>MARTIN BORMANN 

>>>>	Bormann was accused of "persecution of religion" and many other
>>>>crimes. Bormann's attorney, Dr. Bergold, pointed out that many
>>>>modern countries (meaning the Soviet Union) are avowedly atheist,
>>>>and that orders forbidding priests from holding high Party
>>>>offices (that is, offices in the Nazi Party) could not be called
>>>>"persecution".

>>>>	 In Dr. Bergold's words: "The party is described as criminal - as
>>>>a conspiracy. Is it a crime to exclude certain people from
>>>>membership in a criminal conspiracy? Is that considered a crime?"
>>>>(V 312 <<353>>). 

>>>Who'se work are you stealing now, Mr. Giwer?

>>	Does that impact the material?

>Give credit where credit is due. That's the honest thing to do.

	It is advertized by Nizkor.  I would have thought everyone would
have seen it by now.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40536 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:23:55 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <4ohvsm$g3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>>>Actually, this is not what I am getting at all.  I am granting that Jews
>>>>were in many cases killed just because they were Jews.  I many be wrong on
>>>>this, but I don't think that can be said about any other group in WW2. 

>>>    Huh?  Gypsies were killed just because they were Gypsies, and due to
>>>the same racial ideology.

>>	The lack of an equalivalent to a Wannsee Protocal on Gypsies is
>>notable by its absense.  Any evidence?  How about some Hitler
>>speeches about gypsies?  

>See Himmler's Fight against the Gypsy Menace Circular.
>See the scant minutes of a conference in Berlin on 21 September 1939.
>Note also the Gypsy camp at Auschwitz. 

>I quoted some of both for Ehrlich. 


>Note the ordinace of the Reich Minister of Finance for 26 March 1942
>which made the Gypsies pay the same taxes as the Jews. Then note the
>Reich Citizenship Law of 25 April 1943 which deprived the Jews and the
>"Gypsies" of their already much curtailed rights as German Citizens.

>"At the instigation of the Reich Main Security Office of the SS, the
>Reich Minister of Labour has decreed, by the order of 13.3.1942 IIIb
>4656/42, that full Gypsies, and part-Gypsies with predominant or equal
>parts of Gypsy blood, are to be equated with Jews with regard to
>labour legislation.
>   Dependants of full or part-Gypsies with predominant or equal parts
>of German blood can therefore no longer be cared for by the NSV. Only
>part-Gypsies with predominantly German elements in their blood are
>still to be included in the welfare schemes."
>(From _The Racial State_ page 126-127)

>>	Or shall we go into the "prove it" routine again?  

>See the post to Ehrlich and above.

	It is good to see you have something but I did ask for a Wannsee
Protocol equivalent.  

>>	Some day you are going to have to face it.  There is no evidence
>>of any war time activity save against those who were considered a
>>security risk in time of war.

>How were the Jews and the Gypsies a security risk.

	How were Japanese-Americans considered a security risk?  They did
not have to be in fact to be considered a risk.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 19:53:21 PDT 1996
Article: 40545 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:51:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4obib8$oc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) uses this sig:

>	It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather 
>	the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) whined:

>	Nice add-on. Giwer, with so many eyewitnesses and survivors,
>	one HAS to wonder, "Where are the victims?"

>As if Mr. Huber has bothered to find out exactly how many
>eyewitnesses and survivors are out there.  He is too busy counting
>the receipts from pimping his own mother.

	You mean to say that all those stories about the gassing being
done out of sight in Birkenau are all lies and that there were
witnesses?

>In article <4obib8$oc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) explains:

>	Actually the point is that if the conditions in the camps were
>	as bad as portrayed none should have survived.  Therefore either
>	the gassing or the conditions needs to be revised.

>And no criminal has ever escaped from a maximum security prison!  If
>even one criminal managed to escape from a maximum security prison
>then we must revise our definition of prison or security.

	Not in the least.  You are very stupid.

>	Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>	that he was not an eyewitness.

>Expert testimony that denies the truth only proves that he was
>never an expert to begin with.

	But you are incapable of judging as you are a scientific
illiterate.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 19:53:22 PDT 1996
Article: 40546 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 05:42:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4om6mh$4bm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:

>>	If the best reference anyone can find is OSHA then one has to
>>suspect that more relevent and established sources do not agree
>>with OSHA.

>Perhaps Mr. Giwer would kind enough to post one of these "more relevent
>and established sources."

>Does Mr. Giwer assert that OSHA is wrong?  Yes or No?

	I have no idea.  Nor would I expect you to be doing anything but
playing another game intended to deceive people as you lack
integrity.  

	If you knew what you were doing you would certainly have cited
the organization OSHA contracted to produce the information you
are going to pretend to cite.  I hope you are not under the
impression OSHA creates this stuff on their own.  

	But if you are then you will need to cite the credentials of the
individuals responsible.  

	Anyone stupid enough to believe a faceless bureaucracy has a lot
to learn about the real world.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 19:53:23 PDT 1996
Article: 40548 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:37:50 GMT
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:


>>>From the _Enclyclopedia of the Holocaust_ vol 1, pp.534-535:

>>>FUNK, WALTHER (1890-1960), Nazi economist and politician. Funk was born in
>>>East Prussia and studied law and economics at the Universities of Berlin
>>>and Leipzig. From 1922 to 1930 he was editor in chief of the _Berliner
>>>Bo"rsenzeitung (Berlin Stock Exchange Journal). An early member of the
>>>Nazi Party, he joined in 1924 and became one of its leading figures. In
>>>1931 Adolf HITLER appointed Funk to be his personal adviser on economic
>>>affairs. Funk was the party's liaison with top figures in German industry,
>>>among them Emil Kirdorf, Fritz Thyssen, Albert Voegler, and Friedrich
>>>Flick.

>>>Owing to Funk's initiative and influence, leading companies in the Reich,
>>>such as the chemical conglomerate I.G. FARBEN, made large contributions to
>>>the Nazi party treasury. It was also Funk who impressed upon Hitler the
>>>importance for the Nazi cause of German heavy industry and private
>>>enterprise.

>>	Your source fails to give the Nuremberg references, without whidh
>>there is no source material.

>Now Nuremburg is the only valid source for you? Who died and appointed
>you God?

	Who else claims to have interviewed Walther Funk and received the
truth from him?  Who claims to have independently gone over the
archived captured documents and arrived at an independent
conclusion?  Or are you suggesting that someone at Farben said,
"it was all the war criminals fault" and it was accepted without
verification?  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  1 19:53:24 PDT 1996
Article: 40549 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:13:33 GMT
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4ombho$2vn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>> 
>>>I'm sorry, but you said first that Ca in bones will burn. I lost these
>>>posts, but as you're recorded in Nizkor, if you will argue with this,
>>>we could retrieve your posts. OK ? Or perhaps the Nizkor recording is
>>>faked too ? In the middle-time, I will increase the time for deleting
>>>my records. It seems to be sometime useful.
>> 
>>	Of course you will continue to lie and Nizkor will continue to
>>keep out of context information to support the lies they want to
>>perpetrate.  That is the way Jews and pro-Jews work as Nizkor is
>>demonstrating.   

>    My understanding is that Nizkor keeps a complete record of all of your
>    posts - and the complete posts of most all other regular a.r posters. 
>    In what way is this "out of context"?

	Taking out of context of the thread is taking them out of
context.  What is it you have so great a difficulty in
understanding about that? 

	And why, since you know better than that, would you claim they
are not context?  

	You are clearly not that ignorant.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:49 PDT 1996
Article: 40553 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Affliction
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:52:45 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4onf0u$kov@shiva.usa.net>, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
>writes:

>>
>>There is a bit more that needs to be said to understand Mr. Giwer's
>>aberrant behavior.
>>
>>
>At this point Mr. Katz launches into an actually pretty good anecdote
>about a friend whose car was smashed by someone full of pentup resentment
>and rage.  He then extends the concept and concludes that Giwer is full of
>resentment and rage, and therefore acts out on this board.

>But even if this is so, is Giwer the only one who is "acting out"?  I
>wouldn't make presumptions about my fellow board members, but people can
>act out in a variety of ways.  Nor do I exclude myself!

	Relax.  They are happy to claim I am projecting when this is a
clear statement of projection.  They simply are not bright enough
to know what they are doing.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:50 PDT 1996
Article: 40557 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chkdsk Weirdness
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:47:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4oe0vv$53h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Historical revision is changing Andersonville from a death
>	camp to a POW camp run as best as possible due to the
>	fortunes of war.

>I have not encountered this particular piece of historical revision,
>but I sincerely doubt that every historian conversant with the issue
>is in total agreement on this point, as Mr. Giwer's statement implies.
>I am sure that there are those who believe the Confederacy ought to
>have freed their prisoners and given them a chance to live, and not
>confined them to a hell-hole that spelled certain death whether or
>not the Confederacy was doing the best it possibly could by them.

	Freed them to do what?  Pillage civilians on their way back
North?  You have no comprehension of war.

>	Revision is beginning to admit that people really are the same
>	all over and do not become demons simply because the were on the
>	losing side of a war.  

>Yes, indeed, "people really are the same all over!"  And, as an
>atheist like Mr. Giwer ought to know, people have evolved slowly
>over the millenia, 

	What does atheism have to do with evolution save in the mind of a
creationist idiot?

and still retain within their psyches the brutal
>impulses of nature that do manage to erupt from time to time and
>place to place.  When this darker spirit emerges from the depths of
>the human psyche, people do seem to act like "demons," but they are
>not truly demons -- they are really just people.  This has been
>stressed time and again by Holocaust publicists to counter the
>natural tendency to see the Nazis as somehow not human, because those
>who see the Nazis as something exceptional will not be alert to
>similar impulses in themselves or their friends and neighbors.

	You must read a lot of Psychology Today.  What is more clear is
the ability to demonize, as in Jews, Niggers and Nazis being
equally demonized.  The mutual hatred between the Hymies and
Schwartzes and the Jews and Nazis differ only in that there are
no more Nazis.  Jews are creating their own shibboleths to fight,
windmills if you will.

>	Revision in this particular case is realizing that the evidence
>	for death camps is slim to none.

>Mr. Giwer has already acknowledged that "revisionism here" is nothing
>more than the spreading of lies!  This is yet another one, which is
>why we refer to it as Holocaust denial, not historical revisionism.

	Only idiot attornies who claim testimony is evidence claim there
is evidence.  But in one respect said attorney is correct.  Typed
and unsigned statements were introduced into evidence, but it was
not testimony, it was not sworn, it was not crossexamined.  It
was inadmissable save under the victor's justice rules of
Nuremberg.

>	Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>	evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>Experts who claim the truth is "physically impossible" only prove
>they were never experts to begin with!

	But then you are incapable of judging as you have no knowledge.
Therefore you implication is a lie.
	


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:51 PDT 1996
Article: 40559 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson?
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:35:28 GMT
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>Can any of the intelligent folks around here help me?

>Ms. Thompson recently alleged to me that she was a "recognized authority
>on Constitutional law."  I asked her for some documentation of this --
>perhaps a c.v. listing her recent articles in peer-review journals and
>recent papers given at ABA-sanctioned conferences.  At this point she
>became quite huffy and defensive and was unwilling to cooperate with my
>request for a c.v.  I can't quite put my finger on it, but it almost made
>me think that maybe she was not being totally honest about her status as a
>legal expert.  

>Can anyone give me some pointers on the publications issuing forth from
>this great mind?  I'm not talking about videos about UFOs ... those hardly
>pertain to Con. law.  No; perhaps Mess'rs Litt et al can mention where I
>might find the abstracts of important articles by Ms. Thompson.

>Anyone?

	I have not heard her make that claim.  Although she did scare the
shit out of Janet Reno, so far as I am aware she is criminal
defense attorney and an all round rabble rouser.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40560 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 04:07:48 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4oj569$lgk@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> > 
>> >Hardly surprising to see Giwer defending Hitler on all
>> >fronts. In response to Mr. Ferre's statement:
>> 
>>         A hundred years ago, saying what is now common knowledge about
>> the US Civil War was considered defending the slavery.  It is
>> nothing new.  
>>  
>> >## and set about to conquer the whole world. 
>> > 
>> >Giwer comes up with
>> > 
>> ># Then perhaps you could explain why Germany was not prepared 
>> ># for war when England declared war.
>> > 
>> >This is typical Nazi trash, which our Hitler-lovers spew out
>> >continuously. Hitler began an aggressive war during which Nazi
>> >Germany occupied nearly all of Europe, and a large portion
>> >of the USSR. It seems that the scum here is trying to deny not 
>> >only the Holocaust, but all of Nazi Germany's acts of aggression 
>> >and war.
>> 
>>         Then perhaps you can explain why the only recorded and official
>> act of aggression committed by Germany in all of WW II was
>> against Poland?  Please post any other act of aggression in which
>> a single life was lost. 

>Try for starts the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia,
>Rumania, and of course, the Soviet Union. 

>And don't forget the U.S. and Canada. 

	Put them in time sequence, look at the violations of neutrality
(particularlly the US), and look at who was getting ready to
attack whom (particularly Russia.)  What is it you missed about
history in public school?  I find it amazing you missed all of
the circumstances of that war.  

>They were all countries against which Nazi Germany initiated military
>action against, or declared war against, first. They all suffered loss of
>lives at the hands of the Nazis. 

	A violation of neutrality is an act of war.  But you know that. 

>The ONLY exception is Britain and France, which mutually declared war,
>after warning Hitler that they would, againsty Germany for Hitler's
>unprovoked invasion of Poland, to which they had mutual defense treaties
>with. 

	As I have noted that was very selective as if the issue was
Poland then they would have declared war upon Russia also.  You
are aware that Russia invaded Poland are you not?  Why do you
suppose it was OK for Russia to invade but not for Germany?  

	You appear to be suggesting the England and France were
complicite with Russia in that invasion.  And if not, how would
you explain it?  You would not be saying they would violate their
mutual defense treaties with Poland just to let Russia have half
of Poland are you?  And if they would, what value the treaty?

>Even then it was Hitler's Germany that intiated hostilities against
>Britian and France by invading the Low Countries and then France in the
>Blitzkrieg of 1940.

	Excuse me sir, a declaration of war is an act of war.  A naval
blockade is an act of war.  You public school education did not
serve you very well.

>> PROVE your contention that it was a war
>> of agression for control of Europe.  (Throw in the world if you
>> are up to it.)

>Gee, I dunno, Giwer- maybe because Hitler actually CONTROLLED most of
>Europe at one point? Duh! What a boob. 

	He controlled the countries that had declared war upon Germany
and the countries that had allied with them or violated their
neutrality in the war.  

>>         But of course you can not post any such evidence.  

>But of course you cannot pose a rational argument. Just whiney drivel and
>Nazi apologia. Figures.

	Why would you want to igore war time events that were in the
gradeschool history books 40 years ago when I was first learning
them?  You appear to think I am saying something new here.  What
is it you did not learn?

>>         You folks will continue to pretend that the attitude in Europe at
>> the time was just like it is in our modern and happy times of the
>> European Union.  It was not.  Poland was prepared for war with
>> Germany and expected to win.  England was prepared to use any
>> pretext to conquer Germany and took the attack upon Poland as the
>> excuse.

>Cite the historical evidence. In detail. What? You can't? Figures. All
>mouth and no brains.

	Are you saying you never heard the stories of Polish spies
leading them to believe Germany tanks were cardboard?  Spying on
military exercises for what purpose?  If England did not use
Poland as an excuse, why no declaration of war on Russia?  You
really missed all of this?  

	I can understand you missing Poland expelling Polish citizens of
the German "race" and Jews and the German refugee camps for them
but you certainly can not have missed the selective declaration
of war.  

>>         Of course if England had really cared about an attack upon Poland
>> England would have declared war against both Germany and Russia
>> but chose not to.  The immediate British blockade of Germany was
>> expected to result in an easy conquest.  England didn't give a
>> rat's ass about Poland.  It was a simple pretext for conquering
>> Germany.
>>  

>Cite the historical evidence. In detail. What? You can't? Figures. All
>mouth and no brains.

	You are claiming you did not even learn gradeschool history.  You
can not be that ignorant.  

>[drivel snipped]

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

	And the best you can do after claiming ignorance of gradeschool
history is recite the mantra.  Is this something like, I can't
hear you?  

	Is there any fact I have recited you did not learn by the time
you finished high school?  Is there anything you are basing your
claim upon other than WW II propaganda?  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40570 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:24:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4nrmec$kn4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>
>>>: 	It is understandable why you have never posted the P Chem
>>>: equations [sic] after this statement.
>>
>>>Does this mean that you plan to give a source for you claim that HCN is
>>>a byproduct of coke combustion, or retract that claim in light of the
>>>evidence to the contrary posted here?
>>
>>	That was NEVER my claim.  I simply said that more HCN would
>>PROBABLY be produced by the Kremas than was ever used in any
>>extermination program.

>    Excuse me good sir but either it would or it would not.  If all you
>can say is "PROBABLY" then you are now admitting that you have just been
>handwaving all along here.

	That has been what this crap has all been about, boy.

>>I added later that it was a normal pollutant produced by the combustion
>>process.  

>    In what quantity?  And what is the source of your data?  Excuse me,
>but I cannot believe that you have personally burnt coke and measured HCN
>output. 

	Excuse me but what does a "probably" have to do with your
question?  Or are you trying to keep it going?

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:53 PDT 1996
Article: 40571 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:28:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	Behold the Nizkor.  

	Neither does it sow nor does it reap. 

	But as the Father in heaven sees each sparrow that falls, he sees
Nizkor, as does his consort, Astarte.
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:54 PDT 1996
Article: 40574 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated witho
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:07:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4ob7a9$4q0@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	On the other hand, let us assume for the moment it is true.
>	Look at the heat directed at me for not giving an "it was
>	so terrible" response.

>Any heat directed at Mr. Giwer over his treatment of Anne Frank is
>entirely due to his vicious attacks and innuendo against her
>character and circumstances.  Mr. Giwer is pleased to define
>a vicious insult as "not giving the proper response!"

	What in the fuck does anyone know about her character?  For all
anyone knows she could have played child prostitute for the
protection.  Did you ever meet her?

>	Ah, but you can't tell tear jerking stories about nameless,
>	faceless people.

>They are nameless and faceless to the rest of the world, but not to
>the survivors.  To those, like Mr. Giwer, who cannot possibly
>understand the enormity of the horror, a person with a name and a
>face serves to make the experience more intelligible, which is why
>the world seized on Anne Frank's story and took it to heart.

	I hear more reference to the Tropic of Cancer than I do to that
book.  You greatly over-rate its significance.

>Mr. Giwer and Mr. Huber seem to think that Anne Frank was a
>propaganda invention, as if anyone could predict that she would
>capture the hearts of the world in advance!

	What in the world makes you think it has?  It is not even good
enough for Hollywood to have bought the movie rights.  Or did I
miss the movie?  How about the TV docudrama?  The HBO special?  

	What fantasy world are you living in that leads you to believe
the world gives a shit about it?  It is only the holohuggers who
care about it.  The comparatively obscure Schindler's List did a
much better job of it.

>	And where is the compassion of all those who were trying to get
>	to me for all of those who died without a name?  

>What makes Mr. Giwer think that the rest of the victims are forgotten
>or that the rest of us have no compassion for them?  The answer is
>that he knows he is wrong, but he also knows that a lie like this
>will generate lots more heat directed against him.  And, despite his
>feeble protests, generating heat is his primary reason for posting to
>this newsgroup.

	Of one thing you can be certain of in this world, billions have
died and are unremembered.  And another thing you can be certain
of, billions more will die in the future and be unremembered.
You can be certain this will continue until the human race
becomes extinct.  

	Billions to one, with any luck, trillions or more to the
compasion you want for the one simply because it furthers your
idiot cause.

>The real question is:  After demonstrating such callous disregard for
>Anne Frank, what makes Mr. Giwer think that anyone believes that he
>has any compassion for the millions of other victims who remain
>nameless to the rest of the world.

	I should care about one?  Why?  A holohugger says she only
survived because she was 15 and all younger were killed
immediately.  Why do you not give greater regard for the more who
died sooner?  What is your priority other than notoriety?

>	You are quite correct, she is too useful, as has been
>	demonstrated here.

>Mr. Giwer is only fooling himself if he thinks he has "demonstrated"
>anything here.

	Not me, you folks who demand compassion for one out of billions.
Sort of like worshipping one particular Big Mac.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40589 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cosmic Slop
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:55:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>CHUCK FERREE WRITES:

>GIWER, I RESENT THIS KIND OF SICK SO-CALLED HUMOR. KNOCK IT OFF!

>You are not only a dumb troll, you are even a dumber story teller. 
>If you'd stay sober long enough, perhaps your mind would clear up long 
>enough for you to go have your liver checked. And I'd suggest you tell 
>your shrink about all those weird dreams too. They can fix you, Mr. 
>Giwer, but you have to want to be fixed.
>Chuck


>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> From the first episode:
>> 
>>         A black barber speaks to a black customer.
>> 
>>         Did I ever tell you about the American dream?  Every nigger
>> swimming back to Africa ... with a Jew under each arm.
>> 
>> =====
>> 
>>         But of course merely posting this will be called antisemitic by
>> the idiots.
>> 
>> ----
>> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.


	Excuse me but if you do not like one of the best series HBO has
ever produced then tak it up with them, not me.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!marlin.ucsf.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:32:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Now you are claiming white with both lean and rich mixture.

>This is what the paper says.

># There is something very wrong with what you are saying.

>What "revisionist" axiom have I contradicted?

># I will mail you my address if you will run a copy at the
># office and mail it to me.  

>For various reasons, I prefer not to send you mail. Do not
>mail me your address. Anyway, I quoted the relevant part:

>[Regarding low fuel-air ratio]
> 
> "Under these conditions the exhaust was acrid (causing lachrymation
>in under 10 seconds). At times it was almost clear, but sometimes
>white fumes were produced".

>[Regarding high fuel-air ratio]

> "Under these conditions the engine produced a dense white smoke,
>apparently consisting mainly of unburnt oil; very little carbon
>was present. The fumes were very acrid, causing intense pain to
>the eye in 4 to 7 seconds. The visibility in the chamber was only
>a few inches, and the lethal quality of the fumes was greater
>than than under conditions A,B, and C".

	Even though it has been overtaken by events in that the witness
was clearly close enough not to have been confused and made up
the steaming story, this is what I have been saying.  It is only
at the high ratio, a rich mixture, where there is this "smoke"
droplets of unburned oil, AS IT SAYS.  Note the very little
carbon comment.  You appeared to want to go back and have white
smoke under both conditions.  

	This is exactly what I have said about it.  You are the person
who still has an oil soaked building and one that has to deal
with the explosion hazard while in operation.

># And I have no problem digging into more about diesel engine
># design to get to the bottom of this.  As I believe you will
># agree as will I and everyone else here, they have not seen
># white exhaust coming out of a diesel even idling.  

>I cannot speak for everyone. I do not have any problem with
>studying this further. But the Pattle et. al. team did
>study this matter. One difference is that they used more
>modern and much smaller engines than in the death camps.

	OBE now.  The statement is that the white smoke is unburned oil.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:48:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:


>>>>>From the _Enclyclopedia of the Holocaust_ vol 1, pp.534-535:

>>>>>FUNK, WALTHER (1890-1960), Nazi economist and politician. Funk was born in
>>>>>East Prussia and studied law and economics at the Universities of Berlin
>>>>>and Leipzig. From 1922 to 1930 he was editor in chief of the _Berliner
>>>>>Bo"rsenzeitung (Berlin Stock Exchange Journal). An early member of the
>>>>>Nazi Party, he joined in 1924 and became one of its leading figures. In
>>>>>1931 Adolf HITLER appointed Funk to be his personal adviser on economic
>>>>>affairs. Funk was the party's liaison with top figures in German industry,
>>>>>among them Emil Kirdorf, Fritz Thyssen, Albert Voegler, and Friedrich
>>>>>Flick.

>>>>>Owing to Funk's initiative and influence, leading companies in the Reich,
>>>>>such as the chemical conglomerate I.G. FARBEN, made large contributions to
>>>>>the Nazi party treasury. It was also Funk who impressed upon Hitler the
>>>>>importance for the Nazi cause of German heavy industry and private
>>>>>enterprise.

>>>>	Your source fails to give the Nuremberg references, without whidh
>>>>there is no source material.

>>>Now Nuremburg is the only valid source for you? Who died and appointed
>>>you God?

>>	Who else claims to have interviewed Walther Funk and received the
>>truth from him?  Who claims to have independently gone over the
>>archived captured documents and arrived at an independent
>>conclusion?  Or are you suggesting that someone at Farben said,
>>"it was all the war criminals fault" and it was accepted without
>>verification?  

>You tell me the complete sourcing on Walter Funk. I'm no expert like
>you.

	What I posted had the Tribunal page references.  Did you miss
that?  



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:57 PDT 1996
Article: 40609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!inquo!bofh.dot!vyzynz!bofh.dot!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 09:20:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  	If books were too hard for me, I might not know any better.  But
>>  then it is only people interested in deliberate character
>>  assassination who will consistently misrepresent what is said.
>>  
>	We are agreed then.  You are interested in deliberate character 
>assassination.

	Then we are agreed you misrepresented the oath taken by witnesses
in Pennsylvania.  
	
	You next response should be to demand a repost of when you said
it.   

	We are also agreed you lied when you claimed you spoke to a
patent attorney regarding what I said about patents IF you showed
him my messages.  But if you gave him your personal lie about
what I said you may be correct that he laughed.  But you should
realize that it was at you rather than at me.

	But then what can one expect from someone so terminally stupid,
so abysmally ignorant, so worthless a human being that they can
not master a killfile?  

	You have proven yourself so stupid, ignorant and worthless by
that inability that it is a wonder anyone can continue to take
you seriously any longer.  



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 40620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cultured McVay
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 09:11:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4op1hf$gd2@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01  4:12:15 AM CDT 1996
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31ab0ee0.2029753@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:

>	Under Webcrawler > Revisionism > "Green Eggs Report" we are
>	given a brief bio on McVay, and his photo, for any one who wants
>	to see the face of the collaborator himself.

>"The collaborator!"  Apparently, Mr. Moran subscribes to the secret
>Jewish conspiracy theory.

	What conspiracy?  What secret?  Whatever there is, is hiding
right out here in the open as it is on this conference.  Mutual
support.  "I will explain what he really meant" when he says
something tottally stupid.  "I will speak for him" when he can
not speak for himself.  The regular use of "we" and "us" which
only stops and is never rebutted when when it is pointed out.

	Give up the pretensions and the attempts to get someone to claim
there is a secret conspiracy.  It is no secret and it is no
conspiracy (save for the publically announced email agreement to
append the "troll" mantra about me, none dare call it conspiracy)
it is all out here in the open.  No secrets.  No conspiracy.

>I guess Mr. Moran is just too ugly to post a photo of himself!

	Now that is a mature post.  





----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 40623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That lovely bomb morgue/bomb shelter
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:17:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <4oogau$o9@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4ojbs4$hon@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>REALITY CHECK: How about Giwer instead telling us why semi-buried morgues
>>>that are bermed and covered with topsoil _shouldn't_ have concrete roofs?
>>>(Note that said berming and covering would have an insulative effect,
>>>helping to regulate the temperature to keep the morgues at a constant
>>>temperature- just like it does in root cellars. Not to mention that the
>>>topsoil and snow during the winter is rather heavy- thus requiring a
>>>sturdy roof for such an expanse. Or that such a flat roof, being exposed
>>>to seepage from rain and snow, would also need to be water resistant-
>>>hence the use of a concrete and water-proof felt composite.) 
>>
>>	Obviously you will not answer the question.  As you know there is
>>no indication of covered from the artist's conception with
>>topsoil

>    When and where did you see this artist's conception?

	It has been posted here.  How did you miss all the uuencoding?

>>else your gas introduction holes could not exist.

>    Our superscientist now declares that one cannot put any sort of tube
>through topsoil.  Very good.

	The point is that topsoil was an invention of the writer.  

>>Further you know that a gas chamber would need to be as warm as
>>possible for the speed of the outgassing of the pellets

>    No, only as warm as necessary.  20 degrees C would be a perfectly fine
>temperature.  Of course if the first intent was to make the room a morgue
>(as it seems to be) then it would be good to regulate the temperature. The
>aim would not be to kill as fast as possible, simply to kill fast enough.
>They could already gas them faster than they could burn them.

	Regardless of the aim, the times reported are in the same time
range.  But then there are no records of any such calculations.
And of course room temperature is quite high for a morgue.  

>>so that
>>insulation would be counter productive.  The huge expanse of an
>>uninsulated roof would be counterproductive to a morgue yet those
>>are the only drawings known to exist.
>>
>>	But the question is, why was there a more expensive flat roof in
>>the first place?  Why will you not answer that question?  Why not
>>the much cheaper peaked wood roof as with the other two
>>structures?  A common exhaust fan in that would have kept it
>>cooler.

>    Indeed, there is an even bigger mystery here.  Since the Giwer-troll
>appears to be suggesting that the reinforced roof, the ventilation system,
>and the gas-tight door (which he tried to call an air-tight door, although
>that is not the word the SS used) were for use as a bomb shelter.  

	I have of course gone through all of that before.  

	In fact I even pointed out the ridiculous idea of a "gastight"
door for a room with four holes in the roof, although the size
and number of the holes varies with which story the holohuggers
want to be true at any particular time.  

	So tell me.  With four (or three or two) holes in the roof of
what value a gastight door?  Were they trying to make certain it
all came out the roof?  I am certain a clever person like you can
explain the need for a gastight door with those holes in the
roof.  

But
>only one of the two underground rooms were so equipped.  The other room
>had neither the door nor the ventilation system, though a ventilation
>system was originally planned for it.  If they decided not to make it a
>bomb shelter, then they should have left it a morgue.  Yet they did not
>put the corpse chute back into the design, which would make it easier to
>use as a morgue, which is what it was called on the drawings.  So it would
>appear to have been neither a bomb shelter, nor a morgue, nor a gas
>chamber.  Yet it still had the expensive reinforced flat roof.

	What happened to those design changes to the LK as IV and V that
proved your case?

>    I await the explanation of our 163 IQ critical thinking type.  Maybe
>the design engineers were simply incompetent.  But if that is the case,
>then there is no valid conclusion that can be reached from the roof type,
>and all of Mr. Giwer's finger-flapping about what engineers do and don't
>do is worthless since of course it would only apply to competent
>engineers. 

	You still refuse to answer the question as to why a more
expensive type of roof was used and yet you want me to answer
more questions based upon what you making up.  Why will you not
answer that simple question instead of inventing a covering of
topsoil?  

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:59 PDT 1996
Article: 40639 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:40:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4oos7r$b0j@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <26MAY199612551595@cmi.arizona.edu> <4ogesb$aev@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4oguk1$2cj@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4ol6u2$q8s@shiva.usa.net> <4omeep$4su@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 12:41:47 AM PDT 1996

schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4omeep$4su@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:


>>         Tell me where the other 6.8 million were exteriminated.  Please
>> tall the screens you need.
>> 

> 
>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>What is "exteriminated"? 
> 
>By asking "where," are you making some sort of accusation that all the
>victims of the Holocaust were "exteriminated"? Maybe some were killed on
>the BATTLEFIELDS.

	I regret you are unaware that said "holocaust" refers to 12M
total people of which only 5.2M were Jewish.  If you are claiming
battlefield deaths then we can assume the Jews were Red Army
conscripts (they took women) who died on the battlefield.  

	Battlefield deaths are largely accounted for.  There are a total
of 32 million unaccounted for civilians from that war.  But you
know this.
 
>Please explain "Please tall the screens you need."

	Many more than you have taken.
 
>Oh, before I forget:

	When all else fails the mantra of the brain dead holohuggers who
can not think for themselves but who conspire to post this bit of
stupidity.  But then who ever denied that holohuggers were
clannish?
 
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Sara

	Ah, yes, the female Jew who would reel at being called a Jewess.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cosmic Slop
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:45:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4oosh6$b0j@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 12:46:46 AM PDT 1996

>From  the first episode:

	A black barber speaks to a black customer.

	Did I ever tell you about the American dream?  Every nigger
swimming back to Africa ... with a Jew under each arm.  

=====

	But of course merely posting this will be called antisemitic by
the idiots.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40641 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust without Gas Chambers
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 20:11:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 31  3:12:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>>>>>The suffering of the Jewish people in WW2 deserves respect.  It is not
>>>>>>respected by pretending that it hinges on whether there were or were not
>>>>>>gas chambers.  Nor is it respected by pretending that it hinges on how
>>>>>>many CAN be crammed into gas chambers.

>>>>>In a way I can agree. It is a silly nit-pick on the part of the
>>>>>deniers here. To actually think that whether the Germans could burn x
>>>>>number of bodies or that Zyklon-B behaved in a particular fashion is a
>>>>>suggestion that the Holocaust didn't happen IS self-delusional. It is
>>>>>true that all bodies were not burned. It is true that not all people
>>>>>were gassed. It is ture that other methods were used. Some were more
>>>>>efficient than others. Still, in the end, 12,000,000 non-combantants
>>>>>during war were murdered. They were not murdered because they were
>>>>>enemies of the state, but because they were viewed as inferior.

>>>>	How do you separate 12M as murdered from the 32M unaccounted for?
>>>>Please be specific in your response.

>>>Who is unnaccounted for and what are the references for this. You
>>>start bringing in stuff outside of this thread I get confused.

>>	I don't know who is unacconted for.  The same estimating methods
>>were used.  If you question 32M you equally question 12M.

>You made a positive statement above. Don't make claims you can't back
>up. For one thing I'm not questioning the 12M. 

>You are nothing more than a waste of valuable time ind space. This is
>what a troll does. It comments on things it doesn't know ("I don't
>know who is unacconted for.") anything about. what respond at all,
>Giwer?

	Valuable time and space?  As compared to what?  You mean in
comparison to the entire usenet feed?  Or are you referring to
simply the time you choose to spend in this conference?

	But then you confuse easily.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:21:01 PDT 1996
Article: 40642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:35:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4ooods$c78@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Then perhaps you can explain why the only recorded and official
># act of aggression committed by Germany in all of WW II was
># against Poland?

>Er, ah, didn't they also occupied, say, Holland?

	Not until AFTER England selectively declared war upon Germany and
not upon Russia for exactly the same act of aggression upon
Poland and not until AFTER Holland gave port access to England,
the clear belligerant in that war.  

># Please post any other act of aggression in which
># a single life was lost.  PROVE your contention that it was a war
># of agression for control of Europe.

>How else would you call it, when Germany ran over Poland, Greece,
>Holland, France...

>have you lost your mind completely? Don't bother to answer.

	But those only occurred AFTER the selective declaration of war by
England and after those countries sided with England in that
declarartion.  

	But of course you are invited to post evidence to the contrary.
Given that there is none, you will be over-taxed in your creative
skills.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 40656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Zyklon B packing label (0/1) Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 08:56:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <4orl22$p20@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4ome7d$4su@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 

>[snip]

>> >But that really isn't what is at issue here. What IS at issue is your
>> >blatant and purposefull misreprsentation that the Dessau plant was
>> >DESTROYED and that that by implication that it would not have been
>> >possible to ship five tons of Zyklon B to Auschwitz when, in fact, it was
>> >not destroyed and that the five tons of Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz.
>> 
>> >And also, of course, that when called to account on this you tried to
>> >weasel out by saying that I wrote that the planrt was destroyed, which I
>> >most certainly did not. Even then you could not get your excuses straight,
>> >as you also included my origional statement that "the Dessau Zyklon plant
>> >was bombed and heavily damaged."               
>> > 
>> >Note the heavily DAMAGED, which clearly contradicted your claim that the
>> >plant was DESTROYED. 
>> 
>>         I claim only that if there was no impact upon the Zyklon-B
>> production that there was no point in mentioning the damage as it
>> was an irrelevant point.

>Bullshit. You lied, plain and simple. Now you again lie and squirm to try
>and talk your way out of the untenable position you put yourself into. 

	You are very strange on this subject.  It was posted here.  You
did not read it.  You could at least claim you had a newsfeed
problem.  Most interestingly is that none of your fellow
holohuggers will correct you.  But that is expected.

>> >> As you know it was stated that what killed insects lasted for six
>> >> months but what killed people only lasted for six weeks.
>> 
>> >I know nothing of the sort! It has been clerly stated by others, as well
>> >as by myself in citing Hillberg, that the shelf life of Zyklon B was three
>> >months. I would suggest you re-post the article, verbatim, where you
>> >alledge it was calimed otherwise or retract you assertion. 
>> 
>> Excuse me, but citing Hilberg has nothing to do with physical
>> reality.  He has no credentials to evaluate technical claims.

>More bullshit. You were asked to repost the article, verbatim, to support
>your assertion that the shelf life of Zyklon B was claimed to be six
>months. You have failed to do so, which just proves that you lied and were
>simply spouting bullshit to start an argument. You're pathetic. 

	It only means

	1)	you to not read everything

	2)	you have a faulty newsfeed

	3)	your fellow holohuggers will not tell you that is what was
posted

>Furthermore, you have no qualifications whatsoever, not to mention your
>complete ignorance of Hilberg's work, to even begin to make such comments.
>If you had bothered to check my origional cite to Hillberg mentioning the
>3 month limit, you would have seen that he wrote "The Zyklon had only one
>drawback: within three months it deteriorated in the container and thus
>could not be stockpiled" (_Destruction_, p.567) and referenced it with
>footnote 55 which said:

>"55.  Characteristics of Zyklon described in the undated report by Health 
>Institute of Protektorat: 'Directive for Utilization of Zyklon for
>Extermination of Vermin' (Ungeziefervertilgung), NI-9912." (Ibid.) 

>Obviously, you haven't the integrity (or intelligence) to check what
>people actually write before you maliciously slander them and their work
>simply to puff up your sick ego in your attacks on the Holocaust.

>But if  you think Hilberg and NI-9912 are incorrect, then I would point
>out that the label on a packing case of Zyklon B sent to Auschwitz on
>April 24th, 1944, stated a guaranteed shelf life of three months from date
>of dispatch. (_Technique_, p.18.). The image file of the packing label is
>attached.

>Do you also claim that not only Hillberg and NI-9912 are wrong, but that
>DEGESCH, the manufacturer of Zyklon B was wrong as well? Your evidence for
>this is? Oh, right. You don't have any evidence. You just blow shit out
>your lips and expect people to believe you. Uh huh. Why don't you grab a
>copy of one of Baron's "manuscripts" and wipe your chin. You're
>disgusting.

	Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about to be quoting
unqualified sources.  

>[snip]

	Something more you could not deal with deleted.

>>         The way this is going, I am the largest single subject at Nizkor.

>Indeed. You is the largest single subject of riducule I've seen in a long
>while. You're an asshole par excellence all right! And to think you crow
>about such "distictions." Tsk tsk. Poor Giwer, so misunderstood... you
>can't help but be what you are: A misanthropic dickhead. You give new
>meaning to "self-stroking" with your twaddle!

	It is good to see you children are practicing your ridicule and
your mantra.  

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

	But then, talk about conspiracies, the use of this one was
publically announced as a conspiracy of the holohuggers.  So what
is your point in all of this other than to prove that holohuggers
conspire against those whom they do not want to post?  



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:21:03 PDT 1996
Article: 40660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:27:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4orms5$ndh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4oni78$1u4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4oolv4$jtv@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4oq8pv$1ba@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4oqia8$nb1@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02  4:28:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4oq8pv$1ba@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4oni78$1u4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>>>I assumed correctly that Mr. Giwer would only be familiar with the
>>>>>Bronsted-Lowry definition of acidity.  Rather than confuse him, I'm
>>>>>willing to concede that CO2 itself is not a Brosted-Lowry acid.  CO2
>>>>>solvated in water, however (most gases are soluble to some extent in
>>>>>water), in in fact a Bronsted-Lowry acid.  The average tropospheric
>>>>>pressure of CO2 is about 330 ppm.  As a result of the solvation of this
>>>>>CO2 in water, ambient water is not pH 7 but pH 5.6.
>>>>
>>>>	I am certain Bilik is able to speak for himself without you
>>>>attempting to speak for him.
>>
>>>Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with how usenet works perhaps.  When I see Mr.
>>>Giwerr willfully misinterpreting others, I will certainly feel free to
>>>jump in.
>>
>>	I fail to see how saying CO2 is CO2 in a misinterpretation.
>>Perhaps you can explain that WITHOUT telling me what he "really"
>>meant.

>Mr. Giwer claimed without qualification that CO2 is not an acid.  
>Dr. Bilik's reference to the acidity of CO2 was understandable to
>anyone having the least bit of education in chemistry.

	There was never any question that you are unethical, unprincipled
and a deceitful person.  

	You are convicted by your own words.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 10:21:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:24:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4ormmv$ndh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02  4:25:51 AM CDT 1996
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4oqlkd$2b@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>>Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>> 
>>>>         Certainly.  The rank difference to make a direct report makes
>him
>>>> a staff officer, not a line officer.  As such he had no
>>>> independent authority to order anything.
>>
>>>As a former member of the military this idea causes some amusement,
>>>as I'm sure it will to anyone else who has served under arms.
>>
>>	Enlisted or officer?  How did you avoid having a chain of
>>command?
>>
>>>>         He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could
>tell
>>>> religion is beyond me) 
>>
>>>"And this, sir, is the room where the operations take place.  Currently
>>>it is full of Jews."
>>
>>>"I see.  Carry on."
>>
>>>That's one way he might have known.  Next silly question?
>>
>I tend to avoid eponymous threads but the answer to the alleged Jewishness
>of these naked victims is simply obvious.  Circumcision!  

	Where in the hell have you been in your short life?  Circumcision
has not the slighest thing to do with being Jewish and never has.


	Ritual sexual mutilation is not limited to Jews.  It is a very
primative custom that many people follow.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 16:19:33 PDT 1996
Article: 40678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:02:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4ot330$jke@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02  3:03:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	As there was one time some question about this matter.

http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~ld9d/arch.html for more
information.  

James Ingo Freed's initial reluctance to take on the planning of
the museum dissipated after
visiting the shtetls and the death camps in Europe. He began to
incorporate elements of both the
Jews' lives before the Holocaust and architectural details from
the camps themselves into his
planning. Freed said, "There are certain methodologies of
construction, certain tectonics that
begin to be very powerful in the memory of the place." His only
fast architectural requirement from
the commission concerned the hexagonal shape of the Hall of
Remembrance. This has been
taken to symbolize both the Star of David and the six million
Jews who died in the Holocaust. His
other design decisions were concerned with the abstraction of
form to evoke meaning, saying, "I
wanted to make it abstractly symbolic. I was not interested in
resuscitating the forms of the
Holocaust." With these loose parameters in mind, as well as an
avoidance of any neo-classical
alignment with Albert Speer's architecture of the Third Reich,
Freed began drawing specific
proposals.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 19:34:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 03:12:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <4or0t2$c2m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4o8psp$ni3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4okq55$6qu@shiva.usa.net> <4omb7c$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4ondls$3d9@access5.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01  8:13:38 PM PDT 1996
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4ondls$3d9@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
>(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>> In article <4omb7c$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>> Matt Giwer  wrote:
>> >hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <4o8psp$ni3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>> >
>> >>      Actually it was you who attempted in mid stream to change the
>> >>      criteria for bodies self combusting and failed to continue the
>> >>      discussion.  It was also you who got me called a liar for
>> >>      claiming that bones burn.  
>> >
>> >>      I have dropped no such claim as you are well aware.  All you
>> >>      were doing was using the formal meaning of the term burning to
>> >>      make it appear I was lying and those you deceived claimed I was
>> >>      lying for saying that HCN was a "burn" byproduct.  
>> >
>> >>That is not the way that most readers will remember this controversy.
>> >
>> >>Mr. Giwer continually claims to be the only person qualified to
>> >>discuss matters of chemistry, going so far as to blast anyone else
>> >>who contributes to the discussion as totally unfit (usually after they
>> >>prove him to be dead wrong).
>> >
>> >       After the usual example of a religious fanatic who has accepted
>> >the holocaust as an article of faith has shown himself to be a
>> >liar for Yahweh AND admits it, no person with integrity woud side
>> >with such a person.
>> 
>>     So are you claiming the DejaNews system is a liar for Yahweh and has
>> no integrity?  Because it remembers your words the same way Mr. Katz and I
>> do.
>> 
>>     Or do you believe that computers can suffer from false memory
>> syndrome?  Inquiring minds want to know.


>I think yet another quick review of Giwer's original claim is in order:

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>In article <4g1eho$a70@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com 
>> (Mark Van Alstine) says:

>[snip]

>> >Because, Tommy, if you _can't_ show that it didn't pose a hazard then it
>> >certainly can't be it was "illogical" for the Nazis to have carried out
>> >homicidal gassings at Krema I because HCN posed a hazard, now would it? 
>> 
>> The fire would of course probably produce more HCN than was used in
>> any gassing unless there was quite some care in producing complete combustion.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>An interestng choice of words. Very prevaricating. On one hand it can be
>construed as "without a doubt" and on the other as "reasonably but not
>certainly expected." Or if taken together: "almost certainly expected." 
>As in: almost certainly expected "unless there was quite some care in
>producing complete combustion."

	As you appear to need the help.  The "almost certainly expected"
refers to at least trace production of HCN.  The "probably"
refers to the quantity produced.  In case you have missed the
good old days completely one banks a fire by shutting down the
air supply.  

>The meaning becomes more clear when the context of Giwer's assertion in
>taken into account with my immediately previous comment. In essence, I
>refuted Moran's assertion that carring out homicidal gassing in Krema I
>was hazardous (and therefore did not take place) because the hazard from
>the HCN gas vented from the chamber was unproven. (Dr. Keren has also
>succintly pointed out that since homicidal gassings _did_ take place,
>there was obviously no hazard to the Nazis in the surrounding buildings.)
>Giwer's prevarication aside, his challenge to this clearly intimates that
>there _would_ have been such a hazard from HCN, as the furnaces of Krema I
>would _almost certainly have been expected_ to produce more HCN that the
>homicidal gas chamber. 

	You are obviously unaware of the direction in which hot gases
travel.  That means you are uneducated.  

>Obviously, Giwer intended for his claim to be imprecise in exactly such a
>way as to give him an out when he was called on it. (That 163 IQ has to be
>good for _something_!) He _was_ called on it (several times, in fact) and
>he _did_ take his out. He's been backpedaling ever since.

	You are obviously confuse easily.  

>As confirmation of Giwer's backpedaling he has been asked to support his
>claim that the combustion of coal would produce a higher concentration of
>HCN gas than would have been present when the gas chamber in Krema I was
>ventilated. To date he has refused to supply this evidence to support his
>claim. 

	What claim did I make about coal?  But if I did, why should
evidence for common knowledge be required?

>Given Giwer's continued refusal to substantiate his origional claim that
>"[t]he fire would of course probably produce more HCN than was used in any
>gassing unless there was quite some care in producing complete
>combustion," I would suggest to those concerned here in alt.revisionism
>that this particular issue be put aside until Giwer develops the personal
>integerity and intellectual honesty required address this issue
>responsibly. Further discourse is pointless and detracts from the general
>discussion regarding Holocaust denialism and the more pertinent
>discussions of other participants. 

	It is you folks who claim ignorance of common knowledge, not me.


>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

	But you think the mindless recitation of a mantra is going to
have some effect.  I do find you folks quite foolish.  

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 19:34:42 PDT 1996
Article: 40696 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 03:12:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4or0so$c2m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4om45h$5us@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Who else claims to have interviewed Walther Funk and received the
>> truth from him? 

>Certainly not Giwer!

>>Who claims to have independently gone over the
>> archived captured documents and arrived at an independent
>> conclusion?  

>Certainly not Giwer!

>> Or are you suggesting that someone at Farben said,
>> "it was all the war criminals fault" and it was accepted without
>> verification?  

>Giwer certainly is, hence his apologetic drivel about the Nazi war
>criminal Funk!

	The reason you do not like is it is that he was convicted of
steaming people to death and making doormats of their hair, both
of which are considered to have never happened today and
therefore he was innocent of those crimes.  

	You holohuggers are like Christian Scientists with appendicitis
when confronted with a war criminal convicted of crimes you admit
never occurred.  

	Here we have a man tried, convicted and executed of crimes that
you agree never occurred.  

	And you, when faced with that, call pointing it out "apologetic
drivel" because you are not willing to face what happened.  

	And you do that because it is the best you can do in the face of
what really happened.  It is incidental that it shoots the shit
out of one more Treblinka story.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 19:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 40701 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:51:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4ot9fc$4lb@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4orlra$5oj@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>	Thank you for demonstrating the color claims are lies made up by
>>some unknown person or persons.  
>>
>>	You folks really do not realize what you have been doing in the
>>least.   Do you remember the "useful in the future" routine?
>>Guess what?  The future is now.  Go review the few color
>>references and explain why the few color mentions of cyanide
>>poisoning are pink rather than cyanotic.  
>>
>>	It is up to you.  Salvage the color claims.  Do so.  It is all in
>>your hands.

>I have no interest in salvaging any claims.  If Mr. Giwer suggests that
>some claim is untrue, perhaps he could post the claim along with
>evidence that it cannot be true.  Thus far he has done neither.

	Why is it no longer surprising that when people paint themselves
into a corner with one position to address one ad hoc issue that
they never want to even think about the implications of their
clever story being applied to all cases?  

	And of course, when the other cases come up again, why they never
said a word on the subject.  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 20:11:31 PDT 1996
Article: 40722 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:09:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4orlra$5oj@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4ool93$3s0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4om6mh$4bm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>
>>>>	If the best reference anyone can find is OSHA then one has to
>>>>suspect that more relevent and established sources do not agree
>>>>with OSHA.
>>
>>>Perhaps Mr. Giwer would kind enough to post one of these "more relevent
>>>and established sources."
>>
>>>Does Mr. Giwer assert that OSHA is wrong?  Yes or No?
>>
>>	I have no idea.  Nor would I expect you to be doing anything but
>>playing another game intended to deceive people as you lack
>>integrity.  
>>
>>	If you knew what you were doing you would certainly have cited
>>the organization OSHA contracted to produce the information you
>>are going to pretend to cite.  I hope you are not under the
>>impression OSHA creates this stuff on their own.  
>>
>>	But if you are then you will need to cite the credentials of the
>>individuals responsible.  
>>
>>	Anyone stupid enough to believe a faceless bureaucracy has a lot
>>to learn about the real world.

>Mr. Giwer admits that he had absolutely no basis for claiming that
>cyanosis was not a symptom of CO poisoning and that all victims of CO
>poisoning would look pinkish.  Thanks for playing.

	Thank you for demonstrating the color claims are lies made up by
some unknown person or persons.  

	You folks really do not realize what you have been doing in the
least.   Do you remember the "useful in the future" routine?
Guess what?  The future is now.  Go review the few color
references and explain why the few color mentions of cyanide
poisoning are pink rather than cyanotic.  

	It is up to you.  Salvage the color claims.  Do so.  It is all in
your hands.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  2 20:11:32 PDT 1996
Article: 40724 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 05:34:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4ookqm$jd8@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net> <4o5f88$64b@shiva.usa.net> <31a709cf.1089876@news.pacificnet.net> <4ofm1g$3ph@shiva.usa.net> <4oia0c$c73@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31ada0b5.295551@news.pacificnet.net> <31af431a.14275588@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 30 May 1996 13:29:55 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>[snip]
>>	The story basically has it the ashes were further reduced to
>>smaller units by a pounding machine.

>No. The large fragments of remaining bones were reduced by pounding
>them in a mortar--just like they are still reduced today in modern
>funeral homes.

	Why am I not surprised?  One holohugger says the law requires
modern crematoria to reduce everything to a fine ash.  Another
holohugger says in modern times the remains of bones are ground
up.

	Why don't you two get together and agree upon a single story
before you two post these conflicting stories?  

>>	Lets finish off with the particulars:
>>
>>	The Holocaust story has it that up to three people every twenty
>>minutes could be cremated.

>Nice try, but the "Holocaust story" you describe is a fiction of your
>own making. *No one* has put forward a serious claim that three bodies
>could be destroyed in a crematory muffle in twenty minutes.

	Only because they have never done the math on their claims.  But
whether or not they have done the math, they have made the claim.

>Do the math. The Jahrling memo claimed that Krema II could burn 1440
>bodies per day in fifteen muffles.  If Krema II went flat out, twenty
>four hours a day the equation would be 1440 / 24 / 15 = 4 bodies /
>hour / muffle and not three every twenty minutes. 

	As it is a direct function of body weight, you are claim one per
15 minutes, not 20 minutes.  Nice math.  Or have you really
missed the claim has been 20 minutes per body?

If three or four
>small bodies (equivalent to one large adult male) were placed in a
>muffle and burned, the rate of burning is only slightly higher than
>what can be achieved in an ordinary funeral home crematorium today.

	That is a completely false statement.  The modern time of
cremation in on the order of two hours as a minimum, period, no
buts, no exceptions.  AND you claim is that it was faster as a
significantly lower temperature.  

>But again, I know of only one claim that this maximum, rated capacity
>could be maintained indefinitely or that it was ever in fact achieved.
>If it had been maintained indefinitely, then the total Krema capacity
>claimed by Jahrling would have burned 4 million bodies in the time
>allowed as the Russians claimed.

	But as you have noticed, no one claims 4,000,000 any more.
Rather only 1,000,000 over five years.   That doesn't strain any
capacity using the real rates.  Nor does it strain the registered
internees.  Nor does it strain normal death rates under such
conditions.

>There is a world of difference between maximum rated capacity and what
>can be achived in ordinary day-to-day operations. For example, in my
>youth I operated a commercial paper shredding machine that was rated
>at one tonne of paper per hour. But given the myriad of distractions
>in an ordinary working day, I considered 400 kg a very good *day*:
>had to stop and tie off the bales by hand; I had to separate out
>non-recyclable contaminants, and so on.

>Similarly for the Sonderkommando they had to stop and load the bodies,
>clear the ash grates, stoke the burners, clear out the unburned bone
>fragments, and so on. 

>> You say the ashes didn't have to be turned
>>over to relatives and there was no coffin.

>Yes. Such niceties extend the cremation time considerably. The law
>says that the relatives can get the ashes back but that they must get
>back only the ashes of the deceased and not someone else's ashes. That
>means that only one body can be cremated at a time. The SS did not
>feel so constrained, and they saved time by burning more than one body
>at a time.

	But it makes no change whatsoever in the time required for
cremation.

>> You say they weren't
>>reduced to as fine ashe as other conditions.

>Yes. Last year I cremated the remains of two friends, both of whom
>left provision for cremation in their estates. The first friend left
>provision for an ordinary funeral, and his ashes were a fine, clean,
>white powder. The second friend went for a "budget" funeral, and his
>ashes were grey, oily, and contained black bone chips milled to the
>size of kitty litter. I know all this because it was their wish that
>their ashes be mixed and scattered.

>Now, the first friend took a lot longer to cremate than the second
>friend and his funeral cost a good deal more.

	And the times were?  You have not answered the mail.  

>> You also mention a
>>cooling time between firings.

>Yes. A modern funeral home does not run flat out, and the muffle has
>to be cleaned between cremations.

	You are not providing any original information in answer to the
questions being raised.  

>> Now why don't you put all the pieces
>>together into a sweeping conclusion.
>> 	What you have here is 1+1+1+1 = 0.

>No. That is Moran Math(tm), the same math that says that, since forty
>people showed up to my friend's funeral, the deceased must have
>numbered in the thousands.

>But by way of a conclusion: the legal constraints placed on modern
>funeral homes did not apply in the death camps. There are no technical
>reasons why the SS could not have disposed of as many corpses as
>historians have claimed.

	So provide the time differences between the two examples you
claim personal knowledge of so we can get on with this.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40756 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Picture this
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:35:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4orcp2$jsf@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31aef4ed.2343759@news.pacificnet.net>  
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Another source for the first gassings in Block 11 is the
>book "Mutzen Ab!" (Caps Off!), by Polish officer Zenon
>Rozansky, who was an inmate in Auschwitz. Rozansky was
>among the inmates who had to carry the corpses of the
>victims of these first gassings to Krema I.

>The book is in German; I have xeroxed some of it, and can
>send a copy to interested posters.

	But you can not do a text scan and post it here.  Why is that?



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:31:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <4oq9c8$1oa@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>Dr. Bilik made no error.  He assumed that you would be familiar enough
>>>with what he was talking about when he referred to CO2 as an acid.

>>	I have no idea of any degrees this person might have.  He said
>>CO2 is an acid.  CO2 is not an acid.  Unless you are capable of
>>mind reading, you have no idea what he meant.  And he can speak
>>for himself.  He does not need you to speak for him.

>>	As noted, one more example of holohuggers coming to the defense
>>of other holohuggers.

>So, I have to defend myself and a chemist is unskilled ? 

	I have no idea if he is skilled or not.  I do know he will say
anything to mislead people into believing something about his
cherished holocaust is true even though it is a clear deception.

In any case,
>R. Green resumed very well what I was saying. 

	Now that you know what you were talking about, that is.  

It isn't a matter of
>'holohuggers', that's only what a reasonable reader could understand
>from my post (at your opposite, always avoiding the core of the
>problem).

>The start of this thread is your claim that HCN was produced by the
>furnacies, and that's could explain what it's some CN- on the walls of
>the so-called Leichenkeller.

	I have NEVER connected that production with ANYTHING about the
traces in the LK.  You have just made up how this thread started.
Why did you do that?  It appears to me that you can not address
what I am saying so you try to claim it is about something you
feel you can address.  

	Therefore you also are among the ranks of the deliberately
deceptive.  

>I answered that coke didn't produce HCN, but a lot of CO2, what is an
>acid stronger that HCN, ant that moreover, the L-Keller was above the
>ground, one floor beneath; and that this would suppose too that the
>furnacies were not airtight.

	Which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that was ever
said by me.  

>The revisionists claim that HCN 'sticks' to the walls (it's quaint, I
>know - ask another risers of deathes to find a better word), and that
>the water from breathing, washing aso in the L-Keller was hazardous
>for the Sonderkommandos, since HCN dissolved in water could be
>released when they were at work. I agree you didn't deal with this
>point. But if you have a reason to think that the walls of the
>L-Keller weren't wet, give it, it will be useful.

>Anyway, the furnacies produced not only CO2, but H2O too, or the
>bodies didn't contain any water. If HCN could go down one step in the
>L-Keller, then H2O could. The mix is an acid in the classical
>Bronsted-Lewis acception, and this acid is stronger than the prussic
>acid. It will be of no use to argue about the modern acidity
>definitions from Lewis, Isanovich,.. as H2O was necessarily present
>too.

	So now you have run on for three paragraphs talking about
something that has nothing to do with anything I said just
because it is the only thing you are capable of addressing.  

	Why would you do that unless it were you intention to deceive
people?

>>	NOR did I at any time say anything about sticking to any walls.
>>I mentioned simply that the chimneys would PROBABLY have put out
>>more HCN than was used in any gassing.

>Yes. Chimneys. Could you please recall me what was the heigth of the
>chimneys ? Then I could tell you what was the distance between the top
>of the chimney and the Vergassungkeller.

	Why would anyone care?  You are aware of the direction hot gases
take when exiting chimneys are you not?  



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 40764 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:20:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <4odja6$c4u@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>    Ok, we have two levels of discussion going here.  Lets separate them.
>>>>>>>    First, the regular archivists on this group (with maybe one or two
>>>>>>>    exceptions) are not professional historians.  
>>>>
>>>>>>	But who insist upon mindlessly posting out of context quotations
>>>>>>from out of context books and who want to keep the discussion to
>>>>>>stories about the holocaust rather than the holocaust itself.
>>>>
>>>>>I think this works both ways. There are several different methods
>>>>>going on here. If you are so concerned with out-of-context quotes,
>>>>>then prove they are out of context. 
>>>>
>>>>	By inspection.  Is that not obvious to you?  

>>>    Fine.  You claim that something is taken out of context somewhere,
>>>present the actual text or a pointer to it so that people can inspect your
>>>evidence and decide if they agree with your judgement.  That's what I do -
>>>I have posted specific DejaNews URLs so that people can see exactly what I
>>>am claiming is evidence of your lying. 

>>	What in the hell is your problem?  Anything not presented as a
>>complete document is taken out of context.  I do not see the
>>problem you are laboring under.  Is this too hard for you?

>Nope, that is how it works. The setting for any out-take can be
>accurately presented or summarized. The out-take may follow. Please
>stop proving to everyone here that you are an idiot by posting idiotic
>replies.

	It is good to see you agree Keren is not doing what you describe.
It is also good to see you agree he is taking his mindless posts
out of context.  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 40765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:21:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4oni78$1u4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>

>>>I assumed correctly that Mr. Giwer would only be familiar with the
>>>Bronsted-Lowry definition of acidity.  Rather than confuse him, I'm
>>>willing to concede that CO2 itself is not a Brosted-Lowry acid.  CO2
>>>solvated in water, however (most gases are soluble to some extent in
>>>water), in in fact a Bronsted-Lowry acid.  The average tropospheric
>>>pressure of CO2 is about 330 ppm.  As a result of the solvation of this
>>>CO2 in water, ambient water is not pH 7 but pH 5.6.
>>
>>	I am certain Bilik is able to speak for himself without you
>>attempting to speak for him.

>Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with how usenet works perhaps.  When I see Mr.
>Giwerr willfully misinterpreting others, I will certainly feel free to
>jump in.

	I fail to see how saying CO2 is CO2 in a misinterpretation.
Perhaps you can explain that WITHOUT telling me what he "really"
meant.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 40772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:34:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>>In article <4oji7q$34m@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:

>Ken McVay posted the following excerpt from Goldhagen:

>>>>>The Austrians' hearty celebrations included immediate symbolic
>>>>>acts of revenge upon the Jews, who in Austria, no less than in
>>>>>Germany, were believed to have exploited and injured the
>>>>>larger society. As seen here, again and again, the circus of
>>>>>Jewish men, women, and children -- commanded to don their
>>>>>finest clothes, being forced to wash streets, sidewalks, and
>>>>>buildings of Vienna (frequently with small brushes and water
>>>>>mixed with burning acid) -- was met by the cheers and jeers of
>>>>>crowds of Austrian onlookers. 'In Waehring, one of Vienna's
>>>>>wealthier sections, Nazis, after ordering Jewish women to
>>>>>scrub streets in their fur coats, then stood over them and
>>>>>urinated on their heads,'<18> This was the purest form of
>>>>>'non-instrumental' labor, and the purest expression of its
>>>>>ideational and psychological sources." (Goldhagen, 286-7)

>>>>>                         Work Cited

>>>>>Goldhagen, Daniel Jonah. Hitler's Willing Executioners. New
>>>>>York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996

>The Giwer-Troll had this brilliant comment to make about it:

>>>>	War propaganda is wonderful is it not?

>The mysterious Ehrlich606 countered Giwer with the following:

>>>No, Matt, you are wrong.  This sort of thing did happen in Austria and
>>>Germany, and indeed there was worse than this.

>The Giwer-Troll jumps back with the following repartee:

>>	Excuse me, but if it did happen then there were contemporary news
>>accounts in this and other countries from correspondants in
>>Austria who witnessed it.  Do you happen to have any of those as
>>evdience?

>William Shirer, who was a newsperson for some media outlet or
>other at the time of the Anschluss (or however it is spelled),
>was in Vienna at the time, and describes precisely the sort of
>thing that Goldhagen discusses in his book "The Nightmare Years".
>Giwer could, of course, refer to Goldhagen's book himself and 
>look up the sources that are cited for this excerpt, but he prefers 
>to demand that others do his research for him.

	I asked after the contemporary news accounts and you provide a
book.  Are you saying that it was not news?  Or that they all
missed it at the time?  I have a better one for you, the world
didn't think Jews were important enough to report it.  Try the
last.  It fits in so well with the mythology.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 19:51:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>We are in front of a typical "reasoning" (I don't know if it is the
>>>proper word) of a denier.

>>>The question to know if a cyanosis is really more often (and from far)
>>>seen instead of a pink color of the skin in these case, is never
>>>approached. Mr Giwer preferred to contest the value of the works of
>>>the OSHA.

>>	If the best reference anyone can find is OSHA then one has to
>>suspect that more relevent and established sources do not agree
>>with OSHA.

>I didn't say it is the best reference. I said that the OSHA is
>reliable, 

	Upon what basis do you say that?  Its reputation in the medical
community?  Its scholarly research?  

	Don't you find it the least bit strange that a government
regulatory agency is being offered as a authority?  Given the
reputation of OSHA in the US I find it laughable.  

but I said above all that virtually all the sources give
>cyanosis as a sign of CO acute poisonig, even rudimentary medical
>manuals.

	Which is another subject.  Also is the description of the color
of cyanide poisonning.   Also is the difference between skin and
lips.

>The easier way to make your mind is to go to a bookshop and to read
>any recent manual of toxicology. If you were a scholar, but you said
>that you're not, you could too read more detailed issues about this
>point.

	You confuse reading the opinion of others with reading the
knowledge of others as do most here.  They believe both are the
same thing.  Unfortunately they are clearly different.  

>Actually, we have these points:

>1/ the cyanosis is seen very often with the victims of CO. Some other
>specific signs are present too (but involving to be visible that the
>victims were nude and died slowly), and in some rare cases a pink
>colorness of the skin. Then the witnesses who saw this sign on some
>victims are well-founded to say that the CO poisoning is the more
>likely cause of the death for these victims.

>2/ with diesel's exhausts, it is uncertain that the CO was always the
>main cause of the death. It is depending on the settings of the
>engine, and asphyxia or NOx is equally likely, in my mind even more
>likely. In Kulmhof, the gass vans' drivers had to go at 40-50 km/h to
>kill all the victims in the distance to the graves. With asphyxia or
>NOx, the cyanosis is always present. It's obviously the same problem
>with static chambers as in Belzec or Treblinka: the 'Heckenholt
>foundation' certainly learned quickly the better settings.

>3/ your claim that cyanosis located on the lips and the tip of the
>nose is specific, related to prussian blue, and proves that HCN was
>used is still ridiculous.

	I was not talking about proof in any manner, as you well know.  I
was talking about creative details thrown into a creative story.
The more you post about it the more you demonstrate the story was
created.  

>Let me know if any linguistic barrier is still remaining. I will
>explain as I can anything you don't understand.

	I am still waiting for someone to recognize where the blue lips
detail comes from.  You have already established that it would
not happen and thus, despite this "true eyewitness" relating it,
the story is false.  

	Where do you think this incorrect detail came from?




----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 00:00:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> ># But if it was that Mueller then Eichmann is exonerated and
>> ># was murdered by Israel.
>> 
>> >Can you explain the brilliant reasoning in "since Eichmann
>> >reported to Head of the Gestapo Mueller, this means
>> >Eichmann was innocent"?
>> 
>>         Certainly.  The rank difference to make a direct report makes him
>> a staff officer, not a line officer.  As such he had no
>> independent authority to order anything.

>As a former member of the military this idea causes some amusement,
>as I'm sure it will to anyone else who has served under arms.

	Enlisted or officer?  How did you avoid having a chain of
command?

>>         He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could tell
>> religion is beyond me) 

>"And this, sir, is the room where the operations take place.  Currently
>it is full of Jews."

>"I see.  Carry on."

>That's one way he might have known.  Next silly question?

	That is not idicated in any manner by what is said.  But then
they might have been wearing stars too.  But mights do not make
for an explanation.  

>>         He says he could not bring himself to look closely, even once,
>> which indicates no mental preparation for what he was seeing.
>> That is a very, very strange thing for a Lt. Col. NOT to do in
>> front of the grunts and the civilians he is visiting.

>I take you've often seen officers who are present at the scenes
>of mass murder being carried out by their troops?

	That is my.  It was something he did not expect to find.  If it
had been policy he would have known about it.

>>         As to my suspicions that it was the wrong Mueller, "I just got
>> the hell out of there" is not, repeat NOT the response of anyone
>> with command authority.  In fact it is not the response of even a
>> staff officer who could bluff his way through enlisted and
>> civilian types on the Lt. Col. insignia alone.
>> 
>>         Wbat in the hell was he running away from save a scene that he
>> was thoroughly unprepared for?  One for which he was all of this
>> time reporting to, that is, working for the Mueller you claim it
>> was without knowing what to expect?  How is that possible?

>You ever see a person die in a car accident, Giwer?  I don't mean seeing
>them carry away those nice plastic bags, I mean arriving when they were
>breathing and not being able to to a damn thing in time so you can only
>watch them die?

>You ever go into a burning building and pull out a child who won't see
>their third birthday or an old man who collapsed three feet from the door
>and never moved again?

>I've met the people who've had to do these things and the one thing they
>always say is that nothing can prepare you for it until you are there
>staring it in the face.  Every police officer and firefighter and doctor
>knows that they will eventually, probably, have someone die but nothing
>can prepare them for it until it happens.

	Let us put this is perspective.  He is an Lt. Col. reporting to
the two star Mueller.  What is this "can't stop it" crap?  He
issues an order to stop it on the spot.  
	
	Then he heads for the office of the officer in charge of the
operation and orders him to stop and if it is a senior officer he
invokes the authority of the two star, gets a message off to
Berlin, and the two star issues a blanket order to stop such
activities under penalty of time in Auschwitz camp 13.  

	And then at liesure they find out who started this sort of thing
and hang him and anyone else involved in ordering it.

	Is that so hard?

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 40786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor:  Proof is for Goyim
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 00:01:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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smajew@netten.net (Su Majewski) wrote:

>>You claims that Al Gentile is a
>>Righteous Gentile have so far not been validated. His claims to have
>>worked in the Nuremburg trials has not been substantiated and we can't
>>yet place him where he says he was. Until we can do this, we can move
>>on to the specifics of his "testimony." It appears that Su doesn't
>>give his "testimony" much credence. Do you, Su?

>Absolutely not. If he had ever been at Nuremburg, I would have known
>about it years before he ever BBS'd. 

>In fact, he would not have shut up about it.

	Nor in the posts were they any claims of having been at
Nuremberg. 


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 40797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:14:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <4oqbtr$raa@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4oj569$lgk@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>>This is typical Nazi trash, which our Hitler-lovers spew out
>>>continuously. Hitler began an aggressive war during which Nazi
>>>Germany occupied nearly all of Europe, and a large portion
>>>of the USSR. It seems that the scum here is trying to deny not 
>>>only the Holocaust, but all of Nazi Germany's acts of aggression 
>>>and war.

>>	Then perhaps you can explain why the only recorded and official act of
>>aggression committed by Germany in all of WW II was against Poland? 
>>Please post any other act of aggression in which a single life was lost. 
>>PROVE your contention that it was a war of agression for control of
>>Europe.  (Throw in the world if you are up to it.)

>Merciful God, the Giwer-troll has completely lost his mind.  I would think
>the attack on France, the attack on Russia and the violation of Belgian
>neutrality in 1940, not to mention the invasion of Denmark, just might be
>considered acts of aggression.

	France was moving to take back the Ruur militarily or do you
suppose those French troops were moved to the border just as a
training exercise?  

	Russia had moved into a position to attack German troops and
received nothing more than a pre-emptive strike.  

	Belgium and Denmark were giving port access to the British in
violation of neutrality.  And all of this started when Britain
selectively declared war on Gemany and not on Russia.  And they
were supporting the British with war materiel in violation of
their supposed neutrality just like the US, rather FDR, was
violating its supposed neutrality.  

	Germany had every right to attack those countries.  

>The Giwer-troll, after sober second thought (assuming that is possible)
>might learn for the first time, that the German aggression against Poland
>did *NOT* occur in WWII.

	And when did the German AND Russian conquest of Poland occur,
pray tell?  

>>	But of course you can not post any such evidence.  

>Just posted, dimwit.

	Why did you leave out the circumstances to which Germany
responded?  Would you like to take a shot at explaining why
Britain did not declare war on Russia for exactly the same reason
as against Germany?

>>	You folks will continue to pretend that the attitude in Europe at the
>>time was just like it is in our modern and happy times of the European
>>Union.  It was not.  Poland was prepared for war with Germany and expected
>>to win.  England was prepared to use any pretext to conquer Germany and
>>took the attack upon Poland as the excuse.

>Absolute rubbish, not surprisingly not supported by a single quote from
>anyone.

	Why would I need to provide a quote from anyone?  Are you unaware
that BOTH Germany and Russia conquered Poland?  Are you unaware
the Britain did not declare war on Russia also?  

>Perhaps the Giwer-troll could enlighten us on who declared war against whom
>between Germany and the United States?

	After some two years of the US violating its neutrality by
selling war materiel to Britain Germany exercised its right in
international law to declare war upon the US.  Or do you feel
that countries that violate their neutrality should be considered
untouchable?

>>	Of course if England had really cared about an attack upon Poland England
>>would have declared war against both Germany and Russia but chose not to. 
>>The immediate British blockade of Germany was expected to result in an
>>easy conquest.  England didn't give a rat's ass about Poland.  It was a
>>simple pretext for conquering Germany.

>Interesting how England was going to conquer anyone by *NOT* fighting. 
>Methinks the Giwer-troll is really into the sauce this time.

	What is this "not fighting" you are talking about?  What do you
consider a naval blockade but an act of war?  You also appear to
have missed that expeditionary force of Brits that got their
asses kicked off the continent and had to be rescued by fisherman
and the like.

	Did you go to a public school?
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:03 PDT 1996
Article: 40802 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 04:29:39 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:


>>	Where in the hell have you been in your short life?  Circumcision
>>has not the slighest thing to do with being Jewish and never has.

>Giwer, I throw up my hands.

>"This is my Covenant which you shall keep . . . every male among you
>shall be circumcised . . . that shall be the sign of the Covenant
>between Me and you. At the age of eight days every male among you
>shall be circumcised throughout the generations . . . And the
>uncircumcised male . . . shall be cut off from his people; he has
>broken My Covenant." (Genesis 17: 10-14)

>From _To Be a Jew_ by Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin, Basic Books, 1972,
>paperback edition.

>"It is encumbant upon every father to fulfill the Biblical precept to
>circumcise his son on the eight day, or to designate a qualified
>representative to do so on his behalf.

>This ritual is known as the *bris* or *brit* (in Sephardic
>pronounciation). The word itself means *covenant*. The word for
>circumcision is is *milah*. *Brit milah is, therefore, the full name,
>meaning "the Covenant of Circumcision.

	Very good.  Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
common among many people.  It runs something like 25% in the US.


	It is not unique to Jews.  It is not a discriminant between Jews
and non-Jews as you were trying to make it out to be.  Later we
can go into their all standing in a single row facing him so he
can make an inspection to form this opinion.  





----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40806 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An all Jewish holocaust
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:09 GMT
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	If anyone does not recognize this they can read the complete text
http://www.ushmm.org/education/guidelines.html

GUIDELINES FOR TEACHING ABOUT THE
HOLOCAUST 

Methodological Considerations 

1. Define what you mean by "Holocaust". 
     The Holocaust refers to a specific event in 20th century
history: The systematic,
     bureaucratic annihilation of six million Jews by the Nazi
regime and their collaborators as a
     central act of state during World War II. 

===

	Note the definition

	So the question is, what is the name of the event that included
all of the people mentioned below?  Or is it to remain nameless?


===

In 1933 approximately nine million Jews lived in the
     21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany
during the war. By 1945 two out
     of every three European Jews had been killed. Although Jews
were the primary victims, up
     to one half million Gypsies and at least 250,000 mentally or
physically disabled persons
     were also victims of genocide. As Nazi tyranny spread across
Europe from 1933 to 1945,
     millions of other innocent people were persecuted and
murdered. More than three million
     Soviet prisoners of war were killed because of their
nationality. Poles, as well as other
     Slavs, were targeted for slave labor, and as a result tens
of thousands perished.
     Homosexuals and others deemed "anti-social" were also
persecuted and often murdered.
     In addition, thousands of political and religious dissidents
such as communists, socialists,
     trade unionists, and Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted for
their beliefs and behavior
     and many of these individuals died as a result of
maltreatment. 


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40807 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More interesting information
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:40:55 GMT
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	Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the
holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private
holocaust by country and by percentage in that country.  This of
course permits us to calculate the total number of in those
countries, presumably at the end of the war.  That gives us 9.6
million.

	We can also look at the numbers in the Wannsee Protocol and find
in January 1942, excluding Britain and Ireland from the total,
11M Jews in these same countries.  

	Thus we have about 1.4 million unaccounted for.  

	One wonders how these unaccounted for were separated from those
who died without records -- if we are talking about the "no
records kept" version of the story.




----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:05 PDT 1996
Article: 40808 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 08:23:47 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>>>In article <4ohvsm$g3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>>>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>>>>>Actually, this is not what I am getting at all.  I am granting that Jews
>>>>>>were in many cases killed just because they were Jews.  I many be wrong on
>>>>>>this, but I don't think that can be said about any other group in WW2. 

>>>>>    Huh?  Gypsies were killed just because they were Gypsies, and due to
>>>>>the same racial ideology.

>>>>	The lack of an equalivalent to a Wannsee Protocal on Gypsies is
>>>>notable by its absense.  Any evidence?  How about some Hitler
>>>>speeches about gypsies?  

>>>See Himmler's Fight against the Gypsy Menace Circular.
>>>See the scant minutes of a conference in Berlin on 21 September 1939.
>>>Note also the Gypsy camp at Auschwitz. 

>>>I quoted some of both for Ehrlich. 


>>>Note the ordinace of the Reich Minister of Finance for 26 March 1942
>>>which made the Gypsies pay the same taxes as the Jews. Then note the
>>>Reich Citizenship Law of 25 April 1943 which deprived the Jews and the
>>>"Gypsies" of their already much curtailed rights as German Citizens.

>>>"At the instigation of the Reich Main Security Office of the SS, the
>>>Reich Minister of Labour has decreed, by the order of 13.3.1942 IIIb
>>>4656/42, that full Gypsies, and part-Gypsies with predominant or equal
>>>parts of Gypsy blood, are to be equated with Jews with regard to
>>>labour legislation.
>>>   Dependants of full or part-Gypsies with predominant or equal parts
>>>of German blood can therefore no longer be cared for by the NSV. Only
>>>part-Gypsies with predominantly German elements in their blood are
>>>still to be included in the welfare schemes."
>>>(From _The Racial State_ page 126-127)

>>>>	Or shall we go into the "prove it" routine again?  

>>>See the post to Ehrlich and above.

>>	It is good to see you have something but I did ask for a Wannsee
>>Protocol equivalent.  

>I did. But you can't read or understand English. Giwer, you disgust
>me. 

	Do you really think I care in the least about what you pretend to
emote?

>>>>	Some day you are going to have to face it.  There is no evidence
>>>>of any war time activity save against those who were considered a
>>>>security risk in time of war.

>>>How were the Jews and the Gypsies a security risk.

>>	How were Japanese-Americans considered a security risk?

>Americans were paranoid enough to consider them a risk. They were also
>easily identifiable. These Japanese-Americans may not have been a risk
>in reality, but the actions of the government can point you to the way
>the human mind works when racial paranoia is involved. Te major aspect
>to this is that we were at war with Japan.

	The news in the 30s discussed the war of some worldwide Jewish
organization against Germany.  Or have you missed those posts?

>>  They did
>>not have to be in fact to be considered a risk.

>No they did not. Good hind-sight, Giwer.

	In hindsight Elie Wiesel and his father were very foolish to have
chosen to retreat to Germany with the SS rather than await
liberation by the Russians also.  But then, you can explain that.
You would almost think that Wiesel and his father did not know
what was happening.  But the Elie was unable to work and in the
infirmary at the time so perhaps he did not believe the "gassing
those unable to work" stories either.  

	Or do you really want to continue this game?



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:06 PDT 1996
Article: 40817 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:05:42 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4oark5$dml@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) said:


>>>What I said was that it is for the discussion of "revisionism", which
>>>implies that some readers will not agree with that approach and will
>inject
>>>the truth into the discussion.  How can one discuss the "revision of the
>>>orthodox holocaust stories" (Mr. Giwer's words) without discussing the
>>>"orthodox holocaust stories" themselves?  The mind boggles.

>>	That was an unfortunate phrasing.  In this case I meant to
>>attempt to piece together the evidence to determine what in fact happened
>>rather than to merely change stories or create new
>>stories.

>Every once in a while, you say something that I find quite reasonable, even
>if I don't agree with its totality, that makes me wish you were here for
>reasonable discussion instead of trolling.  This group started off, as far
>as I remember, as a haven for "revisionists": Gannon, Raven and some others. 
>A bunch of us smelled them out and leaped in with the truth of the
>Holocaust.  The battle was on.  Eventually, Gannon, and some of the other
>"revisionists" had had enough and left (Raven does make the occasional
>appearance).  As to your statement about piecing "together the evidence to
>determine what in fact happened", I wish that were what happened here.  It
>would be most interesting and might even approach *real* revisionism.  But
>that is not what happens here.

	You greatly over-rate yourself.  And if what was done then is
what is being done now I can see how people can get tired of
people of the company of creationists.  




----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:07 PDT 1996
Article: 40828 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:27:20 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>It could well be said that Andersonville was a death camp in that many
>>>soldiers neadlessly died there, but Matt Giwer wants to insinuate (on
>>>the basis of a TV-movie) 

>>	If fact, you lying asshole,

>This guy is over 50?!

>> I suggested that if the books were
>>too hard for you that you watch Gone with the Wind to see the
>>conditions civilians were living under.

>Actually, you were talking about the TNT movie. 

	I have no idea what TNT movie you are talking about.  I only
mentioned Gone with the Wind.  

>>  You then immediately
>>claimed my information came from that movie and retreated from
>>your claim of an extensive collection on POW materials that
>>included the War between the States. 

>If I really thought you were worth the time, I would go through all my
>old files and bring up the conversation, but I think your insinuations
>have been exposed for what they are.

	I said this same thing the FIRST time you made the claim and you
did not respond then when it would have been easy for you to do
so.  Now of course you will claim otherwise.

>>	Other than that, you are compounding your lie with this post.

>And you usually resort to name calling when you are caught with your
>pants down. Thanks for the laugh. I didn't think you would troll on by
>this one. You *have* to comment on *everything.*

	An accurate description is not name calling.






----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 40832 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lions and tiger and bears and screaming and moaning, oh my!
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 07:59:15 GMT
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	What strange behavior those being gassed.  Whether by HCN or CO
it is painless.  

	Yet those are the only reports.  No threats, to "let me out of
here", no attempts to break down the door, nothing tub the least
likely things for a painless form of death are reported.  

	Were I the suspicious type I would think that the person creating
these stories believed that such deaths were painful.  
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 08:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 40833 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 08:02:40 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of Hauptschrfuehrer Gustav Labs
>[Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
>Use of Poison gas, edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
>A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 87]
>----------------------------------------------------------
>Then Burstinger, who had reappeared from the cellar passage,
>came up to me. He ordered me to start the engine and to leave
>it running for about twelve minutes. I did what I was told, 
>and a minute later I heard terrible screams and groans coming
>from the interior. I got frightened and jumped out of the
>driver's cab. I realized that the exhaust had been directed 
>to the interior of the van to kill the people inside. Bothmann*
>yelled at me, "Have you gone mad?". He told me to get back
>behind the wheel. I did so and waited. I didn't dare to do
>anything, because I was afraid of Bothmann. Gradually, after 
>some minutes, the screams and groans of the people died away.

>* SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Hans Bothmann.

	Have you ever noticed that is it always screams and groans from a
painless gassing?  Have you ever noticed the lack of "let me out
of here" demands?  Have you never noticed the lack of notice of
pounding on the doors or walls even?  Have you never noticed the
lack of even empty threats?  

	Am I the only one who has noticed this not only inhuman behavior
but contrary to natural law behavior?  

	Of course some idiot wag will ask if I have ever been gassed to
death and thus how do I know.  Beyond being very silly, that
would pretend to ignorance of all CO suicides and all reports of
HCN executions in the US for murder.  

	But then, there is nothing beneath holohuggers.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 11:09:29 PDT 1996
Article: 40841 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Israel, in the beginning
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:47:32 GMT
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ZIONIST MASSACRES IN 1948: New evidence 

The following article (3160 words!) was published in the Hebrew
daily Ha'ir on 6 May 1992. It
contains new revelations about war crimes committed by the
Zionist forces in 1948 against
Palestinian Arabs. 

There are a number of reasons why the publication of this
information is important:

1. It shows once more and through the pen of Israeli historians
what motivated the Palestinian
Arabs to flee in 1948.

2. It shows how the Zionist establishment has attempted and still
attempts to hide the truth about
the massacres of Palestinians in the 1948 War.

3. It exposes the fallacy according to which it was mainly
right-wing Zionists (the terrorist groups
IZL and LEHI led by Menahem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir) who
committed atrocities against
Palestinian Arabs in 1948. In fact, most atrocities and massacres
were committed by 'nice
Jewish boys and girls', from the Labour movement, may of whom
grew up in kibbutzim in a
humanist environment.

4. It exposes the myth, entertained in the West, according to
which Israel's practices towards
Palestinians worsened when the right-wing Likud came to power.

5. It documents the development of a growing awareness among
Israeli intellectuals of the need
to face the past with honesty. This is a rather recent and
salutary phenomenon.

An appendix to the article includes summary descriptions of some
other massacres (published
along the article in Ha'ir). 

Elias Davidsson translated from Hebrew and added some explanatory
notes . 



                         NOT ONLY DEIR YASSIN

                           By Guy Erlich, Ha'ir, 6 May 1992

After Lydda (1) gave up the fight, a group of stubborn Arab
fighters barricated themselves in the
small mosque. The commander of the Palmach's(2) 3d Battalion,
Moshe Kalman, gave an order
to fire a number of blasts towards the mosque. The soldiers who
forced their way into the mosque
were surprised to find no resistance. On the walls of the mosque
they found the remains of the
Arab fighters. A group of between twenty to fifty Arab
inhabitants was brought to clean up the
mosque and bury the remains. After they finished their work, they
were also shot into the graves
they dug. 

The Jewish American journalist Dan Kurtzman, heard this testimony
>from  Moshe Kalman, who
has meanwhile died, while he was writing his book 'In the
Beginning 1948 (Bereshit 1948)' about
the War of Independence. As Kurtzman did not want to hurt the
State of Israel, he did not include
this testimony, but told this story to Israeli historian Aryeh
Yitzhaki, when they met in the IDF
archives, when Kurtzman was there working on his book. Kurtzman,
who is now visiting Israel in
connection with his new book (incidentally, these days a new
edition of his older book is coming
out), confirmed - after some hesitation - that he heard this
testimony from Moshe Kalman.

Since its establishment, the State of Israel keeps a conspiracy
of silence concerning massacres
committed in the War of Independence (4). The only massacre
acknowledged in official
publications is that of Deir Yassin, perhaps because it was
perpetrated by the IZL (Irgun). Books
and press reports have referred to dozens of cases, but only
partially and incompletely. Yitzhaki
corroborates this impression: 'I read all the documents in the
IDF archives written about the War
of Independence. In the course of years I became especially alert
to anything concerning the
massacres.' Yitzhaki is a lecturer in the Bar Ilan University
[Tel Aviv] in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael
Studies (5) and is also senior lecturer in the field of military
history in IDF courses for officers. In
the sixties he served as director of the IDF archives within the
framework of his IDF service in his
capacity as historian.

Yitzhaki assembled all the testimonies and documents concerning
the subject matter and waited
for the right time to publish. 'The time has come' he says, 'for
a generation has passed, and it is
now possible to face the ocean of lies (6) in which we were
brought up. In almost every conquered
village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which
are defined as war crimes, such
as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes. I believe that
such things end by surfacing. The
only question is how to face such evidence.'

According to Yitzhaki, about ten major massacres were committed
in the course of the War of
Independence (i.e. more than fifty victims in each massacre) and
about hundred smaller
massacres (of individuals or small groups). According to him,
these massacres had an enormous
impact on the Arab population, by inducing their from the
country. 

Yitzhaki: 'For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in
the lie, that the Arabs left the
country under orders from their leaders. This is an absolute
fabrication. The fundamental cause of
their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this
fear was not at all imaginary. From almost
each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab
villages between May and July
1948 - when clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest - a
smell of massacre emanates.
Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were
committed after the battle,
sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and
while the villages are
"cleansed". Some of my colleagues, such as Me'ir Pa'il, don't
consider such acts as massacres.
In my opinion there is no other term for such acts than
massacres. This was at the time the rule of
the game. It was a dirty war on both sides. This phenomenon
spread out in the field; there were no
explicite orders to exterminate. In the first phase a village was
usually subjected to heavy artillery
>from  distance. Then soldiers would assault the village. After
giving up resistance, the Arab
fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the
advancing forces. Some would not flee
and would remain in the village, mainly women and old people. In
the course of cleansing we used
to hit them. One was 'tailing the fugitives', as it used to be
called ('mezanvim baborchim'). There
was no established battle procedure as today, namely that when
blowing up a house, one has first
to check whether civilians are still inside. In a typical battle
report about the conquest of a village
we find: 'We cleansed a village, shot in any direction where
resistance was noticed. After the
resistance ended, we also had to shoot people so that they would
leave or who looked
dangerous'. 

The historian Uri Milstein, a myth-shatterer, corroborates
Yitzhaki's assessment regarding the
massacres' extent and goes even further. 'If Yitzhaki claims that
almost in every village there were
murders, then I maintain that even before the establishment of
the State, each battle ended with a
massacre. In all Israel's wars massacres were committed but I
have no doubt that the War of
Independence was the dirtiest of them all. All over the world,
massacres constitute an integral part
of the norm of war and it is in fact the fundamental basis of
human conduct in a situation of battle.
The idea behind a massacre is to inflict a shock on the enemy, to
paralyze the enemy. In the War
of Independence everybody massacred everybody, but most of the
action happened between
Jews and Palestinians.'

Milstein adds: 'In my opinion, the regular armies of Arab states
were less barbaric than the Jews
and the Palestinians. Until the entry into the battle of the Arab
armies, the concept of taking
prisoners was unknown. The regular armies, especially that of
Jordan and Egypt, were the first in
the region who did not kill prisoners, as a matter of principle.
Not that they were exceptional, but
they killed the least of all, relatively speaking. The Jordanian
Legion even succeeded to stop
Palestinians of massacring Jews in Gush Etzion, at least in a
part of this area. The education in
the Yishuv (7) at that time had it that the Arabs would do
anything to kill us and therefore we had to
massacre them. A substantial part of the Jewish public was
convinced that the most cherished
wish of say, a nine-year old Arab child, was to exterminate us.
This belief bordered on paranoia.'

A careful study reveals that until today over twenty massacres
were publicly reported. The
testimonies were not published in one collection, a fact which
adds to this phenomenon another
dimension. At least eight massacres were described by Benny
Morris in his book 'The Birth of the
Palestine Refugee Problem'. Two cases were reported in Milstein's
books. Two cases are
reported in the book of Palestinian historian Arif al-Arif. The
rest were reported in novels,
memories and the press. But it appears that at least eight more
massacres were committed
which are reported here for the first time. Two of them were
discovered by Yitzhaki, three by
Milstein, one case was revealed by Kurtzman and was presented in
the introduction to this
reportage. One case was brought to our knowledge by a kibbutz
member who wishes to remain
anonymous and one more case was revealed by Dov Yirmiya.

The testimonies concerning the massacres, revealed here for the
first time by Yitzhaki, are kept in
the IDF archives. Those who wish to study the documents in
question confront a blank refusal. The
director, Miki Kaufman: 'If you are looking for what I believe
you are looking for, then you can
forget it. In any case, just keep in mind that we are reading
over any documents before you are
allowed to see them and we cull out material that you should not
see'. 

A person who already had to face this barrage is Benny Morris. He
addressed himself to the
State Archivist to get a report by the government-nominated
Shapira Committee, on killings in the
War of Independence, but his request was denied. 

'The Archivist refused to let me see the report and I went then
to the Supreme Court. According to
the [State] Archives Law (1953), access is open to documents
concerning [government] policies
and political matters after 30 years and documents related to
security matters after 50 years. As
the report by the Shapira committee is a political document
issued by the Ministry of Justice, it
was to be accessible by the public. But after I entered my
request to the State Archivist and to the
courts, the State Prosecutor and the Archivist made me a trick.
It appeared that by convening a
special meeting of at least two Cabinet members - in this case
Arens and Sharir - it was possible
to extend indefinitely the classified status of any archived
document by arguing that disclosure
might endanger state security. The meeting was duly convened and
the document was
reclassified (...)'

But Yitzhaki kept the testimonies. The first case he presents
happened in Tel Gezer. A soldier of
the the Kiryati Brigade (...) testifies that his colleagues got
hold of ten Arab men and two Arab
women, a young one and and an old one. All the men were murdered.
The young woman was
raped and her destiny was unknown. The old woman was murdered.
Yitzhaki tells that he
discovered the testimony in a specific folder containing
testimonies from Guard Units (Kheil
Mishmar) in the IDF archives. Later he also obtained an oral
testimony about this event from a
person who wished to remain anonymous.

Another case happened in Ashdod. Towards the end of August 1948,
the Giv'ati Brigade
executed the 'Cleansing Campaign' (Mivtza Nikayon) in Ashdod's
dunes. This happened after the
forced landing of an Israeli plane in the area and the killing of
his eight passengers by locals. A
company of mounted cavalry, jeeps and Giv'ati fighters went to
comb the area. In the course of
this action, and according to a conservative estimate, ten
farmers ('fellahin') were murdered.
Yitzahki says that evidence about that can be found in the
campaign chronicle of Giv'ati in the IDF
archives and in the second chapter of the book on the Giv'ati
Brigade.

'Apart from these cases', says Yitzhaki, 'there are more cases
described in IDF's archives, but I
don't want to disclose them at this stage. I will yet write a
book.'

The historian Uri Milstein presented in his book series 'The
History of the War of Independence' a
number of massacres. Three more cases came to his knowledge after
he finished writing. One
case happened in Ayn Zaytoon. According to Milstein two massacres
happened there in addition
to the case described by Netiva Ben Yehuda in her book 'Within
the Bounds' (mibe'ad la'avutot).
Milstein possesses a testimony from a soldier named Aharon
Yo'eli: 'Three men from Safad
came to Ayn Zaytoon, they took 23 Arabs, told them they were
murderers and gangsters, took
>from  them their watches and put them in their pockets, led them
over the hills and killed them. This
was the revenge of the Jews of Safad. I understood that our
commanders were looking for
additional killers to execute such jobs. Not everybody in Safad
was a hassid [strictly observing
Jew]. In my opinion this was not the execution of prisoners but
the killing of Arab murderers. The
rest were expelled in the direction of the Germak that same
evening and to make them go fast,
we shot at them.' The second case was reported to Milstein by a
soldier named Yitzhak Golan, as
he referred to thirty prisoners who were brought to interrogation
in Har Kna'an: 'The men of the
Intelligence Unit interrogated them and after the interrogation
the question came up what to do
with them. We were told to take them down to the Rosh Pina police
station. On the way they
attempted to escape so we shot at them. There was no alternative.
The danger was that they
might reach Safad and would tell there how few weapons and
manpower we had. It is possible
that they were killed chained. Next morning a plattoon was sent
to bury them'.

Another case happened in Caesarea. In February 1948 the Fourth
Batallion of the Palmach
forces, under the command of Josef Tabenkin (8), conquered
Caesarea. According to Milstein,
all those who did not escape from the village were killed.
Milstein gleaned testimonies about this
fact from fighters who participated in the conquest.

A member of Kibbutz Be'eri, who was assigned to the the Guard
Milices for a short time, reveals
another unpublished case about the murder of an Arab soldier: 'We
were in the strong point in the
Wadi Ara area, near Giv'at Ada. Not far away was a post of
Palestinians who fired from time to
time at us. One night we raided their post and brought back a
prisoner for interrogation. One of
the soldiers of the Guard Milices took the prisoner after
interrogation, beheaded him and with a
knife scalped the head. No one present tried to stop him. He then
tied the skin to a high pole
facing the Palestinian post to inspire a deadly fear among the
Palestinians. This soldier was later
brought to the batallion commander for trial.'

On 20 May 1948 the Karmeli Brigade conquered the village Kabri.
Dov Yirmiya, who was a
company commander in the 21th batallion, tells: 'Kabri was
conquered without a fight. Almost all
inhabitants fled. One of the soldiers, Yehuda Reshef, who was
together with his brother among the
few rescapees from the Yehi'am convoy, got hold of a few
youngsters who did not escape,
probably seven, ordered them to fill up some ditches digged as an
obstacle and then lined them
up and fired at them with a machine gun. A few died but some of
the wounded succeeded to
escape. The batallion commander did not react. Reshef was a brave
fighter and as a rescapee
>from  the Yehi'am convoy, enjoyed special status in the batallion.
He advanced later to the grade of
Brigadier General. He justified his action as an act of revenge.'

'When the action ended, we left, namely the batallion commander
Dov Tschitchiss, Education
Officer Tzadok Eshel, the driver and myself. We drove over fields
to Nahariya. While driving we
saw refugees escaping to the North. The batallion commander
ordered the driver to stop and
went with the driver and the Education Officer to chase an Arab
who was escaping with a girl
eight or nine years old. I heard shots and had scarcely the time
to understand what happened.
When they returned, the batallion commander declared: We killed
them. I asked: The girl too?
And he answered to me: No, no, we did not kill the girl'.

The Education Officer, Tzadok Eshel, has already forgotten about
the episode. 'In our Carmeli
Brigade', he said, 'we did not commit massacres. I can tell you
about the massacre that the IZL
people did in Haifa. It was typical for the IZL and the LEHI, not
to us. It was totally outside our way
of thinking. There was the case of an officer who wanted to loot
a village but they did not allow
him.' After hearing the testimony of Yermiya, Eshel changed his
version: 'Did I tell you about this
case, no?...Probably I forgot...Yes, there was in fact one case
where we drove in a jeep and an
officer, I don't remember who, but I don't think it was the
batallion commander, wanted to shoot
down an Arab with a girl. I told him that if he will fire at
them, I will shoot at him. When we returned
to the jeep I felt good that I succeeded to stop such a thing.' -
Yirmiya, in his testomony mentions
[however] shots', -'I don't at all remember that I was in the
jeep. I was in the area. I tell you, you
better leave these things. There were no such things.' 



Notes by Elias Davidsson

     (1) Lydda: An Arabic town between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
Most of its inhabitants
     were expelled in 1948 under written orders by Yitzhak Rabin.

     (2) Palmach: Shock troups of the Labour-controlled Hagana
forces. 

     (3) IDF: Israel Defense Forces.

     (4) The War of Independence is the name given by Zionists.
The Palestinian Arab call
     this war the Naqba (The Tragedy). Less loaded names might be
The First
     Zionist-Palestinian War, or the War of 1947-1948. 

     (5) Eretz Yisrael: The Hebrew name for the area of Mandatory
Palestine (from the
     Jordan to the Mediterranean sea). 

     (6) One of the most potent lies, disseminated in the whole
world, was that the
     Palestinian Arabs left their homes under explicite orders by
Arab leaders outside
     Palestine. There is no evidence for this claim, but it has
served Israel very well for at
     least 15 years after its establishment, especially in the
West.

     (7) Yishuv: Jewish society in Mandatory Palestine.

     (8) One of the leadesr of the leftist Zionist Ahdut Avoda
movement.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 11:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 40854 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Amazing events in history
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:51:24 GMT
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The Jewish Agency Murders Jewish Refugees

If there is any doubt that Zionists were prepared to collaborate
with Nazism, and that they always
put their aim for a Jewish state before the survival of the Jews,
let us remember that it is on the
public record that the Zionist 'Haganah', the Jewish defence
force in Palestine, not only joined the
Gestapo in organising forced emigration of Jews from Germany to
Palestine, but also did its
share of directly murdering Jews, when this proved unsuccessful.

Let us examine the case of the S.S. Patria, full of Jewish
refugees from Hitler, which was blown up
on November 25, 1940 [off the coast of Palestine] supposedly in a
mass suicide protest against
the British decision to transfer them to Mauritius instead of
admitting them to Palestine.

On the 18th anniversary of their deaths, the Zionist leader
Sharett together with Ben Gurion
declared that they were martyrs to the cause and admitted
complicity saying 'It is sometimes
necessary to sacrifice a few in order to save the many'
(Shonfeld, Holocaust Victims Accuse,
p.62) 

Later the memoirs of Herzl Rosenblum, a member of the Central
Zionist leadership, the so-called
'Small Action Committee', were published:

A session of the Small Actions Committee, of which I was a
member, met in Jerusalem. At the
table opposite me sat the commander of the Patria project, A.
Golamb, Haganah spokesman
in the Zionist shadow cabinet. When my turn came to speak, I rose
and told the meeting openly
everything I thought about this act; namely, that this was not a
blow against England, but an
irresponsible, aimless mass-murder of Jews who had been saved
>from  the European
catastrophe. I added that if any of us believed that we had to
fight the British by committing
hara-kiri, let him commit hara-kiri, for hara-kiri is suicide and
not an act of murder. I stated
plainly that this road was open to Mr. Golamb, but that he could
not sacrifice other Jews for his
policy without first asking them, and particularly the children
among them - a crime which I
openly protested. At this point Mr. Golamb jumped up and attacked
me with his fists. But the
people next to him at the table held him back. I must add that
Mr. Golamb's fists, which I will
never forget, did not annoy me as much as the servility of all
the committee members, none of
whom supported. me." (ibid., p.62)

As Rabbi Shonfeld comments, this incident:

Served on a small scale as a tragic symbol of what the Zionists
did to tens of thousands, in
accordance with their rule that says: the merit to be saved
belongs to a Jew only when in Eretz
Yisroel, and if that is impossible, it is better that his death
and great suffering be joined to the
building of the future state." (ibid., p. 63)

(excerpted from Nazi-Zionist Collaboration, pamphlet issued by
BAZO-PS - British Anti-Zionist
Organisation/Palestine Solidarity, London, 1981)


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 11:09:31 PDT 1996
Article: 40855 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
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Subject: And a little more
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:58:09 GMT
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ZIONIST ANTI-SEMITISM

                By Les Levidow, publ. in RETURN (London), Dec.
1990

Zionism has always purported to be the prime or ultimate
protector of Jews from anti-Semitism.
The proposed solution has been mass emigration to what the
Zionist's term Eretz Israel, ('the
Land of Israel'), a term which means possession of the region for
the Jews; this territorial notion
corresponds to Biblical myths rather than to any clear
geographical boundaries. The emigration
itself has been termed aliyah ('ascent'). The term originally
described Jews' pilgrimage to
Palestine as a duty of Orthodox Judaism. Zionism appropriated the
term for secular-settler
purposes: through Aliyah, Diaspora Jews, regarded as mere 'human
dust' elevate themselves to
the status of human beings. As Israeli citizens, the Jews claim
their rightful place as 'nation among
(European) nations'. 

Many critics have shown how advocacy of this solution has
undermined any struggle against
anti-Semitism. Some critics have even shown how Zionist leaders
have collaborated with
anti-Semitic persecutors for the sake of that aliyah (as in Nazi
Germany), or for the sake of Israel's
arms sales (as during the Argentinean junta).

This essay takes the argument further, to the cultural field, by
arguing that the Zionist mission
involved suppressing or denying all Jewish identities other than
the 'New Jew' who conquers
Palestine.

In practice, this has meant that:

* Zionist culture 'assimilated' European anti-Semitism from the
very start;

* the State of Israel eventually extended that discrimination to
Oriental Jews, seen as a
Jewish-Arab (or 'Levantine') threat, within a wider framework of
Western colonial racism;

* the anti-Arab racism endemic to Zionism incorporates aspects of
European anti-Semitism; and

* Zionist paranoia towards Palestinians expresses internal
anxieties about the disintegration of
Jewish identities which Zionism itself has helped to destroy.

                             'Assimilating' anti-Semitism

As largely or potentially assimilated Jews, the early Zionists of
Western Europe came to doubt the
possibility - or even desirability - of their full assimilation,
as they encountered prejudice and
barriers. They came to accept anti-Semitic racial concepts of the
Jews as inherently incapable of
integrating into the Western nations as full citizens. This
fatalism was expressed by doctor Leo
Pinsker, with a suitable medical metaphor, when he declared that
'Judeo-phobia is a disease;
and, as a congenital disease, it is incurable' (in Hertzberg,
1966).

Early Zionists also accepted - implicitly or explicitly -
prevalent stereotypes of backwards and/or
subversive East European Jews, whose migration to Western Europe
(or the USA) they regarded
as a threat to their own hard-won social status. This perceived
threat acted as a motive for affluent
Jews in Western Europe to channel the migration of East European
Jews elsewhere. Moreover,
many Zionists perceived their own interests as coinciding with
the domestic interests of Europe's
imperial rulers. When Theodor Herzl lobbied the Tsar's Minister
of Interior, who had been
responsible for anti-Semitic pogroms, Herzl argued that Zionism
would weaken the revolutionary
movement in Russia.

At the same time, Zionists justified themselves in terms of
uplifting the backward East European
Jews. Moses Hess, describing the economic structure of East
European Jewry as 'parasitic',
described the future Jewish state as 'the basis on which European
Jewry will be able to climb out
of the dustbins' (quoted in Halevi, p.153). The alliance which
Zionism sought with European
imperialism arose from the cultural chasm which they perceived
between Western and Eastern
Jews.

Indeed, locating their solution in a Jewish state based on
European models, Zionist leaders
regarded the Eastern European Jews' culture as an obstacle. David
Ben-Gurion referred
disparagingly to their 'Diaspora mentality' and 'Jewish
cosmopolitanism'. With the rise of fascism
in the 1930s, the term 'cruel Zionism' described those who
justified sacrificing the many -
especially East European Jews - for the sake of the few who would
establish a Jewish state.
Chaim Weizmann (1937) promoted such a mentality with his poetic
flair:

The old ones will pass; they will bear their fate, or they will
not. They were dust, economic and
moral dust in a cruel world...

Thus, although Zionism arose in response to anti-Semitism, it did
so by assimilating crucial
elements of anti-Semitism, while appropriating the religious
connotations of 'human dust' in racist
terms.

Zionism defined a secular Jewishness negatively, in terms of the
Jews' eternal
persecution by anti-Semitism, seen as the world's main evil, and
eventually epitomised
by the Arabs. Just as this ideology saw anti-Semitism as a
normal, expected reaction to
the presence of Jews out of place in the Diaspora, so it saw the
Jewish state as fulfilling
the normal division of the world's territorial spaces according
to ethnically defined
national groups. [Emphasis - E.D.] Moreover, it incorporated
anti-Semitic myths of the Jews as
defined by race or language, and turned these into counter-myths
defining the Jewish nation that
needed to be built (see Halevi, chapters 5-6).

Within this framework, racist distinctions among Jews were
extended into Palestine itself, where
the Zionist movement sought to replace immigrants' Yiddish
culture with a literally fabricated one.
As Amos Oz [Israeli author] describes the state's acculturation
mission:

Even new lullabies and new 'ancient legends' which were
synthesised by eager writers...Folk
song and dances that require the officially trained guides
who.... are teaching the folk how to
sing and dance properly! (translated in Bresheeth, p.130

                                 Jewish Arab threat

Shortly after the state of Israel was created, the task of
Zionising European immigrants became
overshadowed by the 'problem' of the Oriental Jews. Nearly two
million Israelis, who now
constitute a majority of the country's population, were
culturally Arabs in all but religion; indeed,
they were Arab Jews in all but name. The Zionist project
necessarily fractured that reality into two
opposed identities - Arab versus Jew. It likewise identified Jew
with Zionist, in turn meaning the
assimilated Ashkenazi European type of Jew.

When the Israeli government realised in the early 1950s that few
Jews would emigrate from
Western countries, it resorted to inducing Oriental Jews to do
so. It then used them to populate
dangerous settlements along cease-fire lines to consolidate
Israel's claims to the disputed
territory, and it assigned them to the low-paid, menial jobs
otherwise done by Palestinians. By
engineering this physical and economic conflict between Oriental
Jews and Palestinians, Israel
manufactured the former's anti-Arab feeling, which Zionism
officially attributed to the persecution
that most Oriental Jews had supposedly suffered in Arab
countries.

Although the mass emigration of Oriental Jews served several
Zionist purposes, the Ashkenazi
establishment saw it as a potential cultural threat. Israeli
publications have abounded with racist
language - animal metaphors, 'savages', 'superstitious',
'diseased', etc. - describing the Oriental
Jews. Official Israeli language bans the Yiddish term 'Schwartze'
commonly used in conversation
to disparage Oriental Jews as 'blacks'. Yet the official
euphemism for them, Jewish 'people of
African and Asian origin', excludes South African Jews, who are
instead categorised along with
Jewish 'people of European and American origin' (Halevi, p.207).
That anomaly reveals the racial,
rather than geographical, basis for the Zionist categorisation of
Jews. Halevi further notes the
irony that Israel denounces its Jewish critics as 'self-hating'
yet attempts to integrate the Arab
Jews through a 'system of ideological control and cultural
domination wholly built on the self-denial
of Arab Judaism, and on a colonial-style mass psychology'
(p.220).

The Ashkenazi perception of internal threat has been insightfully
analysed by Ella Shohat (1988).
She quotes Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, whose 1964 book
described the Oriental Jews as
lacking 'the most elementary knowledge', 'without a trace of
Jewish or human education'.
Similarly, Abba Eban warned that Israel must infuse them 'with an
Occidental spirit, rather than
allow them to drag us into an unnatural Orientalism'. 

Shohat describes the Zionist project of turning the Oriental Jews
into true Ashkenazi Israelis: By
distinguishing the 'evil East' (the Moslem Arab) from the 'good'
East (the Jewish Arab), Israel has
taken it upon itself to 'cleanse' the Orientals of their
Arab-ness and redeem them from the 'primal
sin' of belonging to the Orient. (pp.7-8). Despite official
proclamations about Jews as 'one
people', the Orientals' different culture "threatens the European
ideal-ego which phantasises
Israel as a prolongation of Europe 'in' the Middle East but not
'of' it. (p.23).

The grand project of assimilation has succeeded in constructing a
putatively eternal antagonism
between Arab versus Jew, particularly erasing the memory of the
original Palestinian Jews.
Likewise it has generated a syndrome of self-hating Oriental
Jews, who can win acceptance only
by disavowing their previous cultural identity. For them, Shohat
argues, "existence under Zionism
has meant a profound and visceral schizophrenia, mingling
stubborn self-pride with an imposed
self-rejection, typical products of a situation of colonial
ambivalence...In fact, Arab-hatred, when it
occurs among Oriental Jews, is almost always a disguised form of
self-hatred." (p.25)

Thus their resentment against Palestinians expresses an
internalised Western racism. When
some Orientals formed the Black Panthers in 1970-1 and declared
their solidarity with the PLO,
the Israeli government attacked the movement as an expression of
'neurosis' or 'maladjustment'.
That is, precisely when Oriental Jews attempted to overcome the
psychopathology induced by
Zionist anti-Semitism, their attempt was labelled pathological
and suppressed.

Eventually their resentment became decisive in Israeli politics.
Having been treated as
second-class citizens by the Histadrut (Israel's second largest
employer doubling as a 'labour
movement'), Oriental Jews directed their hatred against
'socialism' and the Labour Party in
particular, to the point of largely voting for Likud alignment in
the 1977 election. Although Oriental
Jews apparently support harsher measures against the
Palestinians, the repressive vanguard
among the army and settlers has always had an Ashkenazi
leadership. While colluding with the
latter, the Labour Party (and others) conveniently blame the
'backward' Oriental Jews as a major
obstacle to peace.

As Shohat argues, this blaming "has the advantage of placing the
elite protesters in the
narcissistic posture of perpetual seekers after peace", who must
bear the hostility of the
government, the right wing, the Oriental Jews and recalcitrant
Palestinians. In that way, even the
most enlightened Ashkenazi Zionism can absolve itself by blaming
less civilised Semitic peoples
for perpetuating irrational conflicts. At the same time, Zionism
conceals the institutional racism
which engendered that conflict.

                             Palestinians as persecutors

Zionism often portrays the Palestinians as agents of an
international Arab conspiracy dedicated
to destroying Israel. This mentality can be understood by analogy
to other colonial episodes in
which the colonisers experienced the colonised as persecutors. In
the case of Zionism, Haim
Bresheeth (1989) describes how the social identity of the 'New
Jew' was created in the image of
the European neo-colonialist model, except that Palestine's
original inhabitants (if acknowledged
to exist at all) were to be expelled rather than merely
exploited.

Moreover, Zionist paranoia bears parallels to European
anti-Semitism, in two senses.
Palestinians are almost racially defined as anti-Jewish, as
persecuted German Jews were
labelled 'anti-German'. And their anticipated attacks on Jews
help displace subconscious guilt
about Israeli pogroms committed against Palestinians.

This displacement or projection of persecution can be seen in the
portrayal of Arabs in
Hebrew-language children's literature, as analysed by Fouzi
al-Asmar (1986). In these stories
Israelis face a mortal threat from Arabs who vent a racial hatred
for the Jews, as a result of being
incited by agitators sent by Arab governments. Of course such
fictional Arab characters make no
distinction between Jews and Israelis. Somehow the State of
Israel always escapes imminent
annihilation because the irrational Arabs lack effective
organisation, and because Israeli
supermen-soldiers (or even children) heroically protect the
country from the threat. Despite such
reassurance, the threat should be considered paranoid by virtue
of projecting aggression and
potential guilt upon the Arabs, as well as containing anxieties
about the Israelis' national identity.

El-Asmar observes a change in demonological terminology according
to the period being
described. In these stories, pre-1948 Arabs are portrayed as
mainly nomadic Bedouins with no
particular attachment to Palestine; other Arabs, likewise
primitive, diseased and dirty, are often
thieves and murderers. The Arab-Israeli conflict arises only
because Arabs refused to live in
peace with Jews; given their refusal and subsequent (unexplained)
'flight', they lack grounds for
claiming Palestine as a homeland.

After the 1948 war and the establishment of the state of Israel,
Arabs are portrayed as fedayin
'infiltrators' - in a period when many of the million expelled
Palestinians attempted to harvest their
crops or reclaim other abandoned property. After the 1967 war,
Arabs are portrayed as
'saboteurs' - in a period when Israel sabotaged Palestinian
agriculture in the Occupied Territories
through an array of legal restrictions. After the 1973 war,
Palestinian characters became
'terrorists' operating world-wide.

In all cases, this children's literature portrays Arab attacks as
seeking only to raid, steal and kill.
Apparently they are motivated by jealousy against Jews who have
brought 'human standards' and
modern prosperity to the Land of Israel. A 'good Arab' character
is portrayed as lamenting that
"these Jews came to a desert and they made out of it a paradise,
and here we come and convert
that paradise into a desert" (p.70). This portrayal lends
legitimation to any Israeli measures taken
against Palestinians. Thus systematic Zionist expropriation and
killing is concealed or justified by
attributing the real barbarity to its victims.

While the Israeli characters ultimately triumph in these
children's stories, the omnipotence fantasy
becomes somewhat dented by the 1973 war. In one story a child is
taking cover from a MIG
bombing. He hears a terrible noise "as if I were a loyal grain
ground between huge millstones, as
if the land is trembling under me and I will soon fall into a
deep and black pit" (p.119).

In that fantasy of being reduced to nothingness, the child
expresses a widespread 'victim
complex', whereby Israelis imagine themselves as facing a
perpetual threat of annihilation, from
which they are saved by superior moral character and/or military
defence. The fantasy serves at
least two crucial functions. It displaces subconscious guilt
about the persecution of Palestinians;
and it externalises the internal threat to Jewish identity by the
Zionist project itself. The
displacement involves a psychic continuum, in which anxiety over
social identity is experienced as
a threat to one's physical existence - "falling into a deep and
black pit". The unavoidable anxiety
arises in turn from Israel's failed attempt to replace a
religious Jewish identity with a secular
Jewish culture (as analysed by Akiva Orr in The unJewish State).

Having constructed the 'New Jew' as the born-again goy,
Hebrew-speaking gentile, Zionist has
further constructed the Palestinian Arab on the stereotypical
model of the European Jew. Even a
humanist, left-Zionist writer like Amos Oz (1983, pp.157, 164)
found himself likening the office of
Al-Fajr [a Palestinian East-Jerusalem newspaper - E.D.] to that
of an Eastern European Yiddish
newspaper. And in all seriousness he saw the paper as a sinister
front for an anti-Zionist, Islamic,
Soviet Communist conspiracy. Thus Arabs are despised not simply
as the enemy 'other', but as a
reminder of a hated and abandoned Jewish identity, 'the suffering
Jew'. Moreover, European
anti-Semitic conspiracy theories find their counterpart in
Israeli fears of Palestinians: the
persecuted are experienced as the persecutors.

                           Projecting Zionist anti-Semitism

A Jewish Israeli academic, educationalist Dr. Adit Cohen
(Ha'aretz, 30.6.76) once warned about
this racist portrayal of Arabs as "it was in this way that the
image of the Jew was presented in
anti-Semitic Christian literature" (quoted in El-Asmar, p.125).
Certainly an historical parallel can
been drawn between Zionist paranoia and its anti-Semitic
antecedents. As capitalist market
relations destroy autonomous cultural identities, "people begin
not to know who they are" (Kovel,
p.238). As a psychic defence against this threat, modern racism
must go further than to project
onto the victim; to protect the self from annihilation, this
racism tends towards physically removing
or destroying the victim.

Given that the Holocaust and then Israel served to destroy
'Diaspora' Jewish identities, in favour
of the New Jew, the Palestinians came to represent a psychic
threat to the very existence of
Jews. "We were better off in the ghetto, where we knew who we
were" laments a semi-fictional
character of novelist Simon Louvish (1985, p.144). That wistful
nostalgia, apparently innocuous,
provides a way into understanding the persistent demonising of
Palestinians as an external threat
to Jewish existence, whose Jewish cultural basis has been
suppressed by Zionist nationalism
itself.

In conclusion, then, Zionism attempted to substitute a European
nationalism for the traditional
religious basis of Jewish identity, as well as for the diverse
'Diaspora' cultures which European
racism denigrated. While claiming to protect Jews from
anti-Semitism, Zionism actually
undermined the basis for any coherent Jewish identity, while
attributing the threat entirely to
external enemies of the Jews. Thus, through a self-perpetuating
illogic, Zionism presents itself as
the only saviour from a malaise which it brought about and
sustains.

                                     References

     * Bresheeth, H. (1989). Self and Other in Zionism. Palestine
and Israel in recent
     Hebrew literature, in Khamsin, 14/15. Palestine: Profile of
an Occupation,
     London, Zed Books, pp. 120-52

     * El-Asmar, F. (1986). Through the Hebrew Looking-Glass:
Arab Stereotypes in
     Children's Literature, London, Zed Books

     * Halevi, I. (1987): A History of the Jews, London, Zed
Books

     * Hertzberg, A. (1966). The Zionist Idea: A Historical
Analysis and Reader. New
     York, Atheneum; includes a reprint of Leo Pinsker,
Auto-emancipation

     * Kovel, J. (1983). Marx on the Jewish Question. Dialectical
Anthropology 8: 31-46;
     reprinted in Joel Kovel, The Radical Spirit: Essays on
Psychoanalysis and
     Society, London, Free Association Books, 1988, pp.226-50

     * Louvish, S. (1985) The Therapy of Avram Blok. London,
Heinemann.

     * Orr, A. (1983). The unJewish State: The Politics of Jewish
Identity in Israel.
     London, Ithaca Press

     * Oz, A. (1983). The Dawn. In the Land of Israel. London,
Fontana

     * Shohat, E. (1988). Sephardim in Israel: Zionism from the
standpoint of its
     Jewish victims. Social Text 19/20: 1-36; available from P.O.
Box 1474, Old
     Chelsea Station, New York, NY 10011.

     * Weizmann, C. (1937) Dr. Weizmann's Political Address -
20th Zionist
     Congress, New Judea, August, p.215


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 11:09:32 PDT 1996
Article: 40858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cosmic Slop
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 08:44:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> 
>> >CHUCK FERREE WRITES:
>> 
>> >GIWER, I RESENT THIS KIND OF SICK SO-CALLED HUMOR. KNOCK IT OFF!

>>         Excuse me but if you do not like one of the best series HBO has
>> ever produced then tak it up with them, not me.

>What series? 

	Cosmic Slop of course.   Take it up with HBO.

And so what. TV is one thing, posting this shit as you 
>intended...to start another pissing contest is in bad taste, and you 
>proved to me what all the others have been saying all along. You are 
>nothing but a dumbshit troller. I didn't say that before, but I 
>believe it now. Stick with the fucking subject, or change channels!

	Did you ever ask yourself why Nizkor is NOT logging your posts as
a great defender of the Holocaust?  



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 12:17:22 PDT 1996
Article: 40862 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Civil Defense Engineer (was Re: Ehrlich)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:25:18 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4omeo1$4su@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4oje2s$9cq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> >>>> > Now that
>> >>>> >too is interesting in that since when did bomb shelters have doors that
>> >>>> >could be opened (and closed) _only_ from the OUTSIDE? That this was the
>> >>>> >case becomes quite apparrant from Henryk Tauber's accoutn of Krema II,
>> >>>> >where he describes the door to L.Keller 1:
>> >>>> 
>> >>>>         Overpressure would blow the door inward.  Thus the entire
>> >>>> perimeter of the door prevents it from being blown into the room.
>> >>>> If closed from the inside only the hinges and the latch would
>> >>>> prevent that.

>Indeed it would. One would then expect a bomb shelter to be desinged with
>a stout door capable of withstanding such overpressures, yes? Seems like a
>pretty fundemental thing to take into accord, yes? A common practise to
>bomb shelter designers, yes? 

>Interesting then that the Bauleitung drawing 932 shows L.Keller 1 equipped
>with DOUBLE doors opening INTO the L.Keller (_Technique_, pp.284-85).
>This, of course would mean that the doors, according Giwer, could hardly
>be for a bomb shelter as they would be structurally weak. Oc course, doors
>that opened inwards would also be a problem because of the bodies of the
>victims that would have inevitably piled up against them, thus blocking
>them from opening. 

	Fascinating.  Now I have to deal with both double doors opening
into and a single door opening outward held closed with two iron
bars and screws at the same time.  But they are both truly true
at the same time.  

	Read the fucking newsgroup and correct the person who posted the
iron bar story first.  Then get back to me.

	When in the hell are you folks going to get together and come up
with one single truth?  

	Do you folks not realize these conflicting truths only contribute
your to claims being viewed as bullshit?  

>Evidently, Dejaco recognized this problem with the bodies blocking the
>doors, and in Bauleitung drawing 2003 he drew the DOUBLE doors opening
>OUTWARDS from L.Keller 1. (_Technique_, pp.302-303.). One problem with
>this was the doors were still DOUBLE doors, which if they were for a bomb
>shelter, would still be structurally weak. Double doors are also harder to
>make gas-tight than a single door. Recognizing this the single gas-tight
>door was then later substituted.

	Even more interesting.  First a single outward door, then a
double inward and now a double outward door.  But finally we get
the kind of door that was always the case from the beginning
until the truth started changing.  This is good to read.

	So here we have extensive documentation on changes in the kind of
door(s) and yet only a couple of ott the wall references to any
gassing.  

	In light of this kind of documentation it is most amazing folks
can not come up with elaborate directions as to the quantity of
Zyklon-B to use by room size and number of people and death time
desired.  You folks seem to have everything but that.

>Now, if Giwer is still squawking about overpressure protection, I suggest
>he focus his meager attention on the fact that the roof of his "bomb
>shelter" had four 70 cm x 70 cm holes in it that opened directly into
>L.Keller 1. 

	I would focus your attention on the size being different for
everyone who posts.  The one I was responding to claimed some 30
cm square.  Yours are much larger.  But in this regard you are
still insisting upon gastight doors with four holes this size.
You appear to think you have no problem with a gas chamber with
the large holes you are claiming existed.

	We can also go back to the pictures that have been posted here
and find the dark patches are at least 10 feet on the smallest
side.

>[snip]

	Must have been something you can't deal with there.

>> I have only stated that there is ZERO evidence for this iron bar
>> and screws claim and nothing other.  

>On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence, as the gas-tight door of the
>Kanada I delousing chamber was nearly identical in design (_Technique_, p.
>46). 

	You have only a secondary reference.  It is unclear why anyone
would use such a cumbersome method when it is completely
unnecessary.  You want a "gas tight" delousing chamber door?  You
use the simple things that were used at the time to keep drafts
out in winter.  That is a strip of springy sheet metal (it was
copper colored) around the sides of the door and the outer edge
of that covered in felt.  It was very old hat in the 40s.  

	But no, your author wants iron bars and screws for simple
delousing chambers and KNOWS that would not produce an air tight
seal.  And you believe him.

>The only difference was that the doors to the homicidal gas chambers
>were equiped with a wire grid "basket" on the gas-chamber side of the
>peep-hole to prevent the victims from shattering the glass in the
>peep-hole with their hands. The delousing gas chamber doors didn't have
>this handy little feature. 

>Obviously then the door was functional gas-tight door for a gas chamber.
>The wire grid on the inside indicates it was for a homicidal gas chamber. 

	Of course gas tight was required with the four huge hole for gas
to escape.  But you continue to appear to think you have a point
here.
	
>> As you know, the claim is that the door was found in a trash dump 200 feet 
>> away.

>Of course, Giwer, as usual, is wrong. The gas-tight door which belonged to
>one of the homicidal gas chambers was found in the Auschwitz Bauhof
>(builder's yard) for new and refurbished materials. (_Technique_, p.486.)

	Excuse me.  You are claiming the building was dynamited and the
door was returned to the manufacturer before dynamiting it?  You
and your author are very strange people.

>Given Giwer's absolute ignorance regarding the construction of the Kremas
>and L.Kellers, and his intentional provocations committed based on his
>ignorance in spite of the fact that he has been repeatedly informed about
>his ignorance and refuses to rectify it, I cannot but conclude that:

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

	What you can't deal with, you use your good luck mantra against.
Wards off evil thoughts so to speak.
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 14:54:26 PDT 1996
Article: 40883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor:  Proof is for Goyim
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:29:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>smajew@netten.net (Su Majewski) wrote:

>>>>You claims that Al Gentile is a
>>>>Righteous Gentile have so far not been validated. His claims to have
>>>>worked in the Nuremburg trials has not been substantiated and we can't
>>>>yet place him where he says he was. Until we can do this, we can move
>>>>on to the specifics of his "testimony." It appears that Su doesn't
>>>>give his "testimony" much credence. Do you, Su?

>>>Absolutely not. If he had ever been at Nuremburg, I would have known
>>>about it years before he ever BBS'd. 

>>>In fact, he would not have shut up about it.

>>	Nor in the posts were they any claims of having been at
>>Nuremberg. 

>He claimed to be part of the investigative team. He claimed to be in
>England investigating. His wording was such that one was never sure
>where he was. Stop the promotion of other people's lies Giwer and
>admit you have been used and used badly. You don't have to admit to
>tried this gambit three years ago or so on Compuserve. It didn't work
>then and it really doesn't wash any more. It's dead. Drop the damn
>thing.

	Your conclusions in absense of support for them are duly noted.
Or were you claiming to have been on CI$ three years ago?  Name
the forum while you are at it.  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 19:04:16 PDT 1996
Article: 40902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 20:49:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>  
>>  	Then we are agreed you misrepresented the oath taken by witnesses
>>  in Pennsylvania.

>	I didn't.  Your basis for so stating seems to be that you watched the 
>O.J. trial.  

	Not me.  However, you have stated that in Pennsylvania a witness
swears, "The evidence I am about to give ... etc."  Or was that
someone else trying to make the claim the testimony is evidence?

  
>>  	We are also agreed you lied when you claimed you spoke to a
>>  patent attorney regarding what I said about patents IF you showed
>>  him my messages.  But if you gave him your personal lie about
>>  what I said you may be correct that he laughed.  But you should
>>  realize that it was at you rather than at me.

>	I have his name.  Give him a call.  I "read" him your statement.  He 
>laughed at it.

	Obviously not much of a patent attorney.  

>	You are, and, remain a basically dishonest person who by your outright 
>lies in this post proves your basic thesis.  It is heartwarming to note that your latest 
>post was apaprently designed as an effort to demonstrate your agreement that all 
>you are interested in is mindless character assassination.

	Just what did you say the witness oath was?




----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 19:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40908 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:56:22 GMT
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4ooqko$4hn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4ombho$2vn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>I'm sorry, but you said first that Ca in bones will burn. I lost these
>>>>>posts, but as you're recorded in Nizkor, if you will argue with this,
>>>>>we could retrieve your posts. OK ? Or perhaps the Nizkor recording is
>>>>>faked too ? In the middle-time, I will increase the time for deleting
>>>>>my records. It seems to be sometime useful.
>>>> 
>>>>	Of course you will continue to lie and Nizkor will continue to
>>>>keep out of context information to support the lies they want to
>>>>perpetrate.  That is the way Jews and pro-Jews work as Nizkor is
>>>>demonstrating.   
>> 
>>>    My understanding is that Nizkor keeps a complete record of all of your
>>>    posts - and the complete posts of most all other regular a.r posters. 
>>>    In what way is this "out of context"?
>> 
>>	Taking out of context of the thread is taking them out of
>>context.  What is it you have so great a difficulty in
>>understanding about that? 
>> 
>>	And why, since you know better than that, would you claim they
>>are not context?  
>> 
>>	You are clearly not that ignorant.

>    Thank you, I think.  OK, well you may have a point that it would be
>    better if the original newsgroup were available at Nizkor with no
>    article expiration ever set.

>    To that end I will make you a deal Giwer.  I will match you $2 for
>    every dollar you contribute to Nizkor towards disk capacity which we
>    will direct be used only for in context alt.revisionism feed.

>    And think, you contribution just may be tax deductable too  :>

	You are in the excessively begging mode.  You ONLY have 100 Megs
of files.  A 1 Gig drive goes for under $US250.  Why not use some
of the other 900Megs for the storage before you "contributors"
need to come up with $US40 each for another gig. 

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 19:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40912 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:39:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4oq9c8$1oa@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:

>>>So, I have to defend myself and a chemist is unskilled ? 
>>
>>	I have no idea if he is skilled or not.  I do know he will say
>>anything to mislead people into believing something about his
>>cherished holocaust is true even though it is a clear deception.

>Mr. Giwer can present no evidence of deception on my part.

	Those who cited you as the authority to claim that I was lying
know it.  But of course holohuggers stick together and lie for
each other.  

	You know it happened.  You know you read it happening without
correcting anyone.  You know what you did.

	You can not be an observant Jew as no observant Jew would do such
a thing.  You are an atheist and therefore do not feel bound by
any of the principles that that have kept Jews together for
centuries.

	You are trading off of birth to claim something you do no
deserve.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 19:04:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40914 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!bofh.dot!usenet.seri.re.kr!bofh.dot!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 07:33:16 GMT
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Lissa Valerian  wrote:

>> >Mr. Giwer and Mr. Huber seem to think that Anne Frank was a
>> >propaganda invention, as if anyone could predict that she would
>> >capture the hearts of the world in advance!
>> 
>> 	What in the world makes you think it has?  It is not even good
>> enough for Hollywood to have bought the movie rights.  Or did I
>> miss the movie?  How about the TV docudrama?  The HBO special?  

>Matt, you apparantly missed the show.  The Diary of Anne Frank was part 
>of our reading list in high school, and was shown in movie form in 
>class.  I'm sorry you missed out on it. 

	I will never argue that the story is of interest to high school
students.  I was talking about adults.  

	But then, if you remember, who produced this docudrama?  When and
on what network was the US showing of it?  To be frank (little
pun there) I have never heard of it.  Of course that means
nothing to you but it means quite a bit to me.  I would certainly
like to add it to my collection if it is available.  

>> 	Of one thing you can be certain of in this world, billions have
>> died and are unremembered.  And another thing you can be certain
>> of, billions more will die in the future and be unremembered.
>> You can be certain this will continue until the human race
>> becomes extinct.  
>> 
>> 	Billions to one, with any luck, trillions or more to the
>> compasion you want for the one simply because it furthers your
>> idiot cause.

>Matt, if you think remembering the holocaust for what it was, the cruel 
>and inhumane attempt to exterminate a people, is an "idiotic cause", what 
>does that say for your efforts to argue against it.

	The cause on my side is truth, what really happened.  Distortions
of history are far from uncommon.  Witness Napoleonic "cults"
being outlawed in Europe in the last century as are now nazi
"cults" in this century.  

	I consider myself only a generation ahead of my time.  

	In another 20-30 years it is going to be in the noise.  There is
going to be serious discussion of all of WW II including this
small part of it.  It took until after WW II for a clear
admission that the Zimmerman Note was false.  

	It is going to take an equally long time to opening discuss that
England started WW II also.  

	And after that we can get around to the relatively minor matter
of the fate of internees under circumstances of losing a war and
being in full retreat.  

	You folks seem to have a problem with being a tail end of WW II
and want to be its primary focus.

	It is quite like those who want slavery to be the primary matter
of the US War between the States rather than what it was,
Lincoln's private war which was a matter of open discussion in
the North while it was in progress.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun  3 19:04:19 PDT 1996
Article: 40915 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is trolling?
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:33:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4omf59$53p@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <31ada2d8.842604@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>>				
>>>>	I see a lot of dubbing of "troller" or "trolling" out here. What
>>>>does that mean? 
>>>>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>>>>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.
>> 
>>>I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>>>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>>>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>>>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.
>> 
>>>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>>>(Somehow, I doubt it.)
>> 
>>	The claim of "trolling" is well understood to be a perjorative
>>and nothing more.

>    Not really.  Notice that it is directed in a.r for the most part only
>    at Matt Giwer.  Other denier and anti-semitic correspondents have
>    rarely been called trolls.  This is because Giwer's MO differs from
>    that of the other deniers and anti-semites.

>    Trolling on usenet derives from the sense of trolling while fishing. 
>    It takes the form of putting one's written "line" in the water using
>    inflamatory material as "bait" and seeing what bites.

>    There is discussion of trolling in appropriate FAQs available in
>    news.announce.newusers.  It is a matter of observation and
>    extrapolation to conclude that Giwer's behavior here amounts to
>    trolling.

	If you do not mind my pointing it out ...

	There can be no trolling if there are not brainless fish.

	If I am a troller then holohuggers are fish.  

	You can not have one without the other.


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun  4 19:08:40 PDT 1996
Article: 40959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:01:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4p2bq8$dgp@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) gives more anti-Semitc drivel:
>>  	Mr. Morris, where did you get this information? Was it some
>>  Jewish source? They have an extensive history of degrading Catholics.

>	Try Newsweek magazine, Moron.

	It is good to hear that anything Newsweek publishes is completely
true. 

	I hope you will not mind my remembering this for later.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun  4 19:08:42 PDT 1996
Article: 40963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keeping files on Jews
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 19:56:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4o5ki0$dgo@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	My preoccupation?  When it is included with every recitation of
>>the mantra it would appear others are in fact obsessed with them.
>>I merely mention it as nazi-like on occasion.  But then perhaps I
>>can start a site that keeps track of Jews just to test what it
>>will be called.

>    I already know of a computerized data repository keeping track of
>Jews.  I call it a synagogue office.

	You mean they make a permanent record of everything they say for
public consumption?


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun  4 19:08:43 PDT 1996
Article: 40966 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Did the Ashes Go?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:04:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4omc92$3er@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) once again demonstrates his
>inability to read:

>	Pious means believing the Talmud is "theologically correct" like
>	a brain dead idiot.

>I never said the Talmud was "theologically correct!"  I merely
>pointed out that a particualr anti-Jewish bigot of the "Christian
>Identity" persuasion has found the Talmud not to be "theologically
>correct."  I coined the phrase "theologically correct" myself to
>point up the absurdity of the Christian Identity claims.

>So, it turns out that the "brain-dead idiot" is no other than
>Mr. Giwer himself, who cannot understand a simple English sentence
>when he reads one.  He must have been trying to chew gum while he
>was reading!

	Of course.  

>	There is no god, fool.  Not even any of the seven
>	gods of Israel.

>"The seven gods of Israel!"  What metaphysical mumbo-jumbo is
>Mr. Giwer quoting now?  

	Archaeology of course.  That is a science.  Therefore you are
expected to know nothing about it.  

Next, he will claim that the ignorance that
>spawned this last statement makes him a better authority on Judaism
>than Moses.

	There is no evidence there ever was a Moses, or that the Hebrews
were ever in Egypt.  But you know that.  And you also know that
single idols containing all seven gods have been found all over
the old Israel.  These idols include Yahweh God and his consort,
Astarte Goddess.  

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun  4 20:25:24 PDT 1996
Article: 40977 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: World conquest revisitied
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:12:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
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	It appears the SWC does not believe the "world conquest"
nonsense.


28. What was Hitler's ultimate goal in launching World War II? 

     Answer: Hitler's ultimate goal in launching World War II was
the establishment of an Aryan
     empire from Germany to the Urals. He considered this area
the natural territory of the
     German people, an area to which they were entitled by right,
the Lebensraum (living space)
     that Germany needed so badly for its farmers to have enough
soil. Hitler maintained that
     these areas were needed for the Aryan race to preserve
itself and assure its dominance. 

     There is no question that Hitler knew that, by launching the
war in the East, the Nazis would
     be forced to deal with serious racial problems in view of
the composition of the population
     in the Eastern areas. Thus, the Nazis had detailed plans for
the subjugation of the Slavs,
     who would be reduced to serfdom status and whose primary
function would be to serve as
     a source of cheap labor for Aryan farmers. Those elements of
the local population, who
     were of higher racial stock, would be taken to Germany where
they would be raised as
     Aryans. 

     In Hitler's mind, the solution of the Jewish problem was
also linked to the conquest of the
     eastern territories. These areas had large Jewish
populations and they would have to be
     dealt with accordingly. While at this point there was still
no operative plan for mass
     annihilation, it was clear to Hitler that some sort of
comprehensive solution would have to be
     found. There was also talk of establishing a Jewish
reservation either in Madagascar or
     near Lublin, Poland. When he made the decisive decision to
invade the Soviet Union, Hitler
     also gave instructions to embark upon the "Final Solution,"
the systematic murder of
     European Jewry. 


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 01:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40991 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ghettos?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:26:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4p2d9f$1o8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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	This is one of many references to ghettos under German control in
these answers. 

33. How did Germany's allies, the Japanese and the Italians,
treat the Jews in the lands
they occupied? 

     Answer: Neither the Italians nor the Japanese, both of whom
were Germany's allies during
     World War II, cooperated regarding the "Final Solution."
Although the Italians did, upon
     German urging, institute discriminatory legislation against
Italian Jews, Mussolini's
     government refused to participate in the "Final Solution"
and consistently refused to deport
     its Jewish residents. Moreover, in their occupied areas of
France, Greece, and Yugoslavia,
     the Italians protected the Jews and did not allow them to be
deported. However, when the
     Germans overthrew the Badoglio government in 1943, the Jews
of Italy, as well as those
     under Italian protection in occupied areas, were subject to
the "Final Solution." 

     The Japanese were also relatively tolerant toward the Jews
in their country as well as in the
     areas which they occupied. Despite pressure by their German
allies urging them to take
     stringent measures against Jews, the Japanese refused to do
so. Refugees were allowed
     to enter Japan until the spring of 1941, and Jews in
Japanese-occupied China were treated
     well. In the summer and fall of 1941, refugees in Japan were
transferred to Shanghai but no
     measures were taken against them until early 1943, when they
were forced to move into the
     Hongkew Ghetto. While conditions were hardly satisfactory,
they were far superior to those
     in the ghettos under German control. 

=====

	Now here was have a policy of mass extermination on one hand and
the economic burden of maintaining these ghettos on the other.  

	Does anyone else get the feeling there is something inconsistent
about this?
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 02:25:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41019 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fuchs Testifies About a Gassing in Sobibor
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:32:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4p2h58$2n2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04  6:34:00 PM CDT 1996
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial, 
>Dusseldorf 
>[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard 
>Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 31-32]. 
>--------------------------------------------------------------
> ....We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at 
>least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation 
>and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.

	What is a benzine engine?  Trade name or was it supposed to
operate on benzene?  

>I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the
>ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The
>chemist, who I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with
>measuring instruments to test the concentration of the gas.

	I also find it interesting that a carefully worked out plan with
all the money needed to lay tracks and construct all the
buildings needed for this enterprise but has to use a Russian
engine in need of repairs.  

	You would think they could have shipped them a Germany engine.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 02:25:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:48:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4p2lj1$mtr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04  7:49:37 PM CDT 1996
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4oqbtr$raa@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Russia had moved into a position to attack German troops and
>	received nothing more than a pre-emptive strike.  

>Mr. Giwer is invited to present some evidence in support of this
>contention, but, of course, he cannot.

	Actually I had expected you folks would have done that for me by
now as the widest distrubtion for it was contained in an
editorial by Pat Buchanan from the then recently published
memoirs of the Russian General in charge of preparing for the
offfense.  He was called a Nazi apologist for doing that.  No, I
do not remember the general's name.	

>The reason is that Stalin had the bulk of Soviet troops poised for a
>defense against Japan in the far eastern portion of Russia.  That is
>why Hitler scored so many early victories.  Given Russia's
>underdeveloped infrastructure, it took some time to get the troops
>from the far east to the western front, but once they got there they
>pushed Hitler's army all the way back to Berlin, and then waited
>there patiently for the other allies to arrive from the west.

>One of the main Russian criticisms of Stalin in this period was that
>he had placed too much trust in Hitler and was caught with his pants
>down.

>Of course, Mr. Giwer will disagree.  Of course, Mr. Giwer will label
>me some kind of dimwit for reporting the truth.  Of course, Mr. Giwer
>will not provide a single, solitary shred of evidence to refute me.

	When you get around to dealing with the facts that you learned
even in gradeschool without the war time propaganda you will be
able to understand history much better.

	First we have the selective declaration of war by France and
England upon Germany but not on Russia for the invasion of
Poland.  Then when it is clear England is getting crap beat out
of it, Russia opens up the second front diverting German
resources.  It is only a matter of time before the agreement
between England and Russia to do this comes to light.  

	Until then, look at the obvious, and explain the selective
declarations of war.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:23:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More interesting information
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:54:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <4p20r9$okb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ot8sk$3i@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3JUN199617442529@cmi.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 11:55:37 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4ot8sk$3i@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>	Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the
>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the
>>holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private
>>holocaust by country and by percentage in that country.  This of
>>course permits us to calculate the total number of in those
>>countries, presumably at the end of the war.  That gives us 9.6
>>million.
>    > 
>>	We can also look at the numbers in the Wannsee Protocol and find
>>in January 1942, excluding Britain and Ireland from the total,
>>11M Jews in these same countries.  
>> 
>>	Thus we have about 1.4 million unaccounted for.  
>> 
>>	One wonders how these unaccounted for were separated from those
>>who died without records -- if we are talking about the "no
>>records kept" version of the story.

>    If you do the math correctly (from the SWC page) you actually get about
>    9,077,000 rather than 9.4 million.  

	I'm going to have to report that to the folks who own Quattro Pro
these days.

But that merely creates a larger
>    number for the question asked.  It is a reasonable question to ask.  I
>    don't know the answer, but can posit several possibilities.  Maybe
>    another reader here has read some research which will shed light on
>    which of these possibilities is most likely valid:

>    1. Possibly the numbers used at the SWC are not completely accurate. 
>    Possibly more than 5.86 million Jews (the number they are using) is a
>    low estimate.  As historians' estimates range from 4.8 million to
>    about 6l5 million depending upon the method used - and assumptions used
>    - to generate the estimate, it is possible that this accounts for
>    something.

>    2. Possibly the Nazi's were incorrect in their estimate of eleven
>    million European Jews in 1942.  Tom Moran has already shown us that the
>    Nazi's estimate of Jews in France was flawed.  It is possible that
>    other estimates of theirs were flawed and that the eleven million count
>    is off.  (Does anyone here know how that estimate was arrived at and
>    the liklihood of its accuracy?)

>    3. Possibly - even likely - some Jews emigrated from Europe after 1942. 
>    While emigration was strongly curtailed due to war (and we have several
>    stories of Jews trying to emigrate and being denied), it is possible
>    that some Jews did manage to either formally emigrate or simply managed
>    to sneak out of Europe (or to Britain or Ireland) to account for some
>    of the discrepency.  (Does anyone here know what the Jewish emigration
>    numbers were during WWII?)

>    4. It is possible (actually it is known fact) that some Jews left
>    Europe immediately (or shortly) after the end of the war.  It is
>    possible that their emigration was timed in such a manner that it was
>    not caught in post war censuses.  That is, all of these estimates are
>    very rough estimates - post war movement of peoples may not accurately
>    be captured.

>    5. It is possible that some of those people were still in Europe but
>    kept a low profile after the war and were not accounted for in post war
>    census data.  Given the treatment of the Jews just hence, it seems a
>    reasonable move not to announce one's self to a census taker.

>    In all likelihood most or all of these hypotheses had some effect on
>    the discrepencies which might have existed in the counting of Jews
>    after the war.  My personal guess - and this is only a guess - is that
>    #2 accounts for most of this discrepency.  I suspect that the Nazi's
>    count of Jews was based on the best data available to them, but that
>    Jews were leaving Europe prior to the war - when they could and the
>    total count of Jews likely was less than official numbers would
>    indicate.  Again, this is only a guess - I have no data to back this
>    up.

>    Anyone else have thoughts on this?

	Interesting suggestions.  Now can you answer why NONE of the
suggestions apply to the "undocumented" people who were supposed
to have been immediately gassed?  

	I know that they did not apply when I made several of those
suggestions when the undocumented version of the story came up.
When I did it, it was denying the holocaust.  

	So why are you not "denying the holocaust" by making suggestions
like these?  
 


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:23:06 PDT 1996
Article: 41048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20:50:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4p27m6$ejn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4otppv$cq3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1qil$2hf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>M. Giwer wrote:

>>Very good.  Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>>common among many people.  It runs something like 25% in the US.

>Perhaps the word is "did" run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years.  The
>rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced the
>incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer.  Subsequent
>investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>effective in this regard.

	Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
until studies were conducted some 30 years ago.  You have a long
way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
grounds.  

	It was no more than a sexual mutilation custom started by some
primitive peoples.  It was continued with a religious
justification.  It originated independently several different
places around the world.  It is not unique to the Hebrews.  

	It is difficult to accept that in one place it is a "covenant
with god" and in other places it is merely sexual mutilation.
Unless of course this god was going around making a lot of
covenants.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:23:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41049 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:15:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4p295b$51h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <26MAY199612551595@cmi.arizona.edu> <4ogesb$aev@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4oguk1$2cj@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4ol6u2$q8s@shiva.usa.net> <4omeep$4su@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p1u0j$jeb@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4omeep$4su@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Tell me where the other 6.8 million were exteriminated.

>As with the Jewish victims, they were not all killed in the same
>place at the same time, but Mr. Giwer already knows that.

>Some were worked to death in concentration camps, others were killed
>indiscriminately by German troops during their many invasions, 
>others were killed in retaliation for local partisan activity,  and
>some were killed for trying to save others who were on the Nazis'
>hit list.

	But then when people picked up the pieces after those events the
places where they were marked.  Even the remains from Katyn (sp?)
Woods were found.  

	But when it comes to the remains of hundreds of thousands of
bodies all in one place, the best we have are a few fragments
here and there.  

>	Please tall the screens you need.

>Why bother?  Mr. Giwer has no intention of reading what I post anyway.
>If he does bother to read any of it, he will not understand most of
>it anyway.  

	I didn't think you would.

All he really wants to do is use my post as a vehicle for
>trying to provoke me to anger, because in his twisted little psyche,
>provoking someone means winning whatever mind game he is playing.

	Gee, I didn't realize you figured it all out.  

>	Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>	evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
>an expert to begin with.

	What is truth?
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:23:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, lying Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 02:26:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4p2rb5$t68@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4nj9gr$bm6@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4or6o6$nov@access1.digex.net> <4ov1os$f5r@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p24ol$oin@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4p2ech$cuk@access5.digex.net>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p24ol$oin@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>[email from Colin McGregor, administrator of idirect.com, deleted]
>>
>>	But you have to remember that 87 of those messages were those he
>>requested to receive from me which constituted a mail bomb from
>>Marduk of Internet Direct which is within the "acceptable use
>>policy" of his organization.  

>    I will remember that.  I will also remember the fact that you do not
>deny lying about having information from Mr. McGregor identifying Gordon
>McFee as Marduk.

	I have not claimed that.  Why do you say I did?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:23:09 PDT 1996
Article: 41073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:28:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <4p32g9$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ot330$jke@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
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hkatz@usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4ot330$jke@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) whines:

>        As there was one time some question about this matter.
>        
>        http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~ld9d/arch.html for more
>        information.  
>        
>        His only fast architectural requirement from
>        the commission concerned the hexagonal shape of the Hall of
>        Remembrance. This has been
>        taken to symbolize both the Star of David and the six million
>        Jews who died in the Holocaust.

>This only proves that Mr. Giwer cannot read with comprehension.  The text
>says, "This has been taken to symbolize..."  It does not say, "The
>architect said this is to symbolize..."

>The architect insisted on a hexagonal building for no reason, except that
>it fit his artisitic sensibilities.  The interpretation was contributed by
>the art critics, who, as everyone knows, are failed artists themselves.

	Save that the full statement in context is ...

James Ingo Freed's initial reluctance to take on the planning of
the museum dissipated after
visiting the shtetls and the death camps in Europe. He began to
incorporate elements of both the
Jews' lives before the Holocaust and architectural details from
the camps themselves into his
planning. Freed said, "There are certain methodologies of
construction, certain tectonics that
begin to be very powerful in the memory of the place." His only
fast architectural requirement from
the commission concerned the hexagonal shape of the Hall of
Remembrance. This has been
taken to symbolize both the Star of David and the six million
Jews who died in the Holocaust. His
other design decisions were concerned with the abstraction of
form to evoke meaning, saying, "I
wanted to make it abstractly symbolic. I was not interested in
resuscitating the forms of the
Holocaust." With these loose parameters in mind, as well as an
avoidance of any neo-classical
alignment with Albert Speer's architecture of the Third Reich,
Freed began drawing specific
proposals.

	Of course, context is everything.  

>Mr. Giwer's post also says:

>        With these loose parameters in mind, as well as an
>        avoidance of any neo-classical alignment...

>I assume that normal square buildings were too "neo-classical" for the
>architect, and Washington already has a Pentagon, so the only way for him
>to be original and creative was to make his building a hexagon.  

	The building is NOT a hexagon.  ONLY the Hall of Rememberance is.
Given the number dead it should be 12 sided or 5 sided.  The
lower figure has always been known to reputable historians.  Have
you not bee reading?  But then this is more memorial than museum
as it preserves the 6 million myth in place of the currently true
5 million (rounded off of course.)  

And the
>nutty art critics fell all over themselves to find some sort of symbolic
>interpretation just toprove to themselves that they have some spark of
>creativity too.

	They are not all Elthsworth Tooheys.  (You figure it out.)

>And Mr. Giwer bought into it like a rube at a carnival side show.

	First off SIX sides for this hall is a requirement from the
commission, as you can read without the heavy editting.  It is
NOT his idea.  He has no choice in that matter.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:23:10 PDT 1996
Article: 41097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Image documentation standards
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 05:08:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4p34r2$gi6@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p2jkj$60h@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: holocaust/gifs/README
>	      incoming/README
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/04

>Effective June 1, 1996, Nizkor will no longer accept image files
>without sufficient documentation. Those images without
>documentation as to their source will be removed from the
>system on July 1, 1996.

>Image files are to be documented in an accomplanying text
>file, using the same file name and the extension ".ref," for
>"reference."

>If you upload a file called IMAGE.GIF, you must also upload
>IMAGE.REF at the same time, or IMAGE.GIF will be deleted. Your
>name and email address must be included in the REF file.

>Bibliographic documention must be to academic standards, and
>include the author, title of book or article, city of
>publication, publisher, year of publication and the page
>number from which the image was taken.

>Additional information, i.e. image captions, detail
>information, may be included within the REF file.

>Ken McVay
>The Nizkor Project

	About time you introduced some discipline into the site.  

	Now all you have to do is find the references and personally
verify their existance.  

	Don't bother to thank me.  

	Are you going to do the same thing with your text files some day
also?  It would make a vast improvement, as would some semblance
of organization.  

	Were you to move the site to WEBCOM (no connection) they have a
utility that would generate a real index rather than the REGEX
guess the file name game.  

	It really is a shame to see such a site be so wasted in so many
ways.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 10:04:13 PDT 1996
Article: 41102 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 06:58:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4p3b9h$3sd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p27m6$ejn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p32n2$gqk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4p27m6$ejn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>>>M. Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>Very good.  Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>>>>common among many people.  It runs something like 25% in the US.
>>
>>>Perhaps the word is "did" run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>>>newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years.  The
>>>rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced
>the
>>>incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer.  Subsequent
>>>investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>>>effective in this regard.
>>
>>	Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
>>until studies were conducted some 30 years ago.  You have a long
>>way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
>>grounds.  
>>
>>	It was no more than a sexual mutilation custom started by some
>>primitive peoples.  It was continued with a religious
>>justification.  It originated independently several different
>>places around the world.  It is not unique to the Hebrews.  
>>
>>	It is difficult to accept that in one place it is a "covenant
>>with god" and in other places it is merely sexual mutilation.
>>Unless of course this god was going around making a lot of
>>covenants.
>>
>>

>You are just flaming on this one, Matt.  Circumcision among non-Jews in
>Europe is and always has been _rare_.  It was rare in the US, too, until
>the 1920's, and the development of the practice coincided (a) with the
>hospitalization of birth, (b) leftover American prudery about
>masturbation, and it was thought that circumcision would discourage that
>practice.  Obviously, _nothing_ discourages you.

>You are just flaming here, enough already.

	Excuse me but you have a lot to learn about the wordwide
prevalence of this tradition among people who never claimed to
make any covenant with any god.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 10:04:14 PDT 1996
Article: 41108 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Don't mention the heroes
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 09:48:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4p3l8g$br8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p2bpo$dgp@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>For once, I tend to agree with Giwer. If there's indeed such
>a guideline - not to mention heroic efforts of some Germans
>to help Jews during the Holocaust - I think this is wrong.

>The question is what "not to dwell" means. It is true that,
>unfortunately, there were not many such efforts, and they
>hardly change the course of the Nazi genocide.

>I was surprised, BTW, that the name of Dr. Lingens-Reiner
>was not mentioned.

	Of course you still hold that a minimum of 250,000 is "there were
not many such efforts."  

	Excuse me good sir, but is 1 a hero and a million a statistic?   





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 15:47:56 PDT 1996
Article: 41189 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 07:54:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <4oqbtr$raa@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
>           mgiwer@ix.netcom.com "Matt Giwer" writes:

>> gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4oj569$lgk@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>> >Giwer) said:
>> 
>> >>>This is typical Nazi trash, which our Hitler-lovers spew out
>> >>>continuously. Hitler began an aggressive war during which Nazi
>> >>>Germany occupied nearly all of Europe, and a large portion
>> >>>of the USSR. It seems that the scum here is trying to deny not 
>> >>>only the Holocaust, but all of Nazi Germany's acts of aggression 
>> >>>and war.

>Hitler offered to make peace with Britain in July 1940. The British told him
>to shove it.

	I find it difficult to believe that any aculturated person would
not know this.  

	Let me rephrase that.  Obiously they know it.   It is in all the
history books from elementary education on up.  It is only that
they can not think for themselves about what they are reading
that permits then to impose WW II propaganda upon facts they
clearly know are contrary to the facts.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 18:06:01 PDT 1996
Article: 41207 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka:some coincidences...
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:48:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4p0tc6$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4oo46l$r37@Vir.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04  3:50:14 AM CDT 1996
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:


>  The biggest part of this post was revised by Al, not because
>  it could become a FAQ (it's a one shot) but because we have some
>  projects in the mind for the whole original stuff that I wrote. Don't
> know if I'll become millionaire like him:

>  It is a certanty that Jews who were deported in Treblinka were not send
>there for vacancy. The Reinhardt action was depriving them from all their
>goods to the profit of the german state. A report from the SS officer Glo-
>bocnick written the 5 January 1944 describe in a list all the possessions
>taken from them in the camp under his control. We can find there 2910 kilos
>of gold bar, 18,734 kilos of silver,  16,000 carats of diamonds, money from
>forty-height countries and gold coins from thirthy four for a total value of
>7 million $ in 1944 prices. (1). Simon Wiesenthal claim to have seen in the
>german files a document signed by Stangl where he talks about 25 wagonloads
>of women's hair, 248 wagonloads of clothing, 100 wagonloads of shoes, 400,000
>gold watches and 145,000 kilograms of gold wedding-rings.(2)

	Just as a quick ckeck, the largest man's wedding band runs 16
grams at most.  That means 9 million or so of the largest wedding
bands.  And of course, even in the metric world, gold is NOT
measured in grams but in troy ounces.  

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 18:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 41209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:36:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4p0ska$9p7@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> Sometimes testimonies are so absurd that you can't help but laugh out
>> loud.  But then, you never know when, described just a little bit
>> differently, you will find yourself nodding grimly in agreement.

>That, Ehrlich, is _very_ true.

>For example, Bradley Smith delights in presenting Elie Wiesel's
>testimony about how mass graves would erupt, months later, with "geysers
>of blood."  Smith refers to Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace
>Prize laureate, as "not wrapped too tight" -- an insult, by the way,
>which fellow revisionist David Cole has expressed concern over.

>Here's how that was reported in _The Holocaust On Trial_ (Lenski, Robert,
>1989, p. 174):

>   As an example of blatant Holocaust fraud, Smith cited the fantasies
>   of Elie Wiesel, who "claims that when some Jews were executed in the
>   Ukraine, that for months after the shootings...their cadavers
>   continued to spurt geysers of blood from their graves into the air. 
>   Now, I have two ways to look at this.  I can either look at it as if
>   Mr. Wiesel believes it, then of course he's not wrapped too tight,
>   or I can look at it that he's passing along fraudulent information. 
>   You don't have to have a doctorate in hydrology to understand in
>   this day and age that even Jewish cadavers cannot spurt geysers of
>   blood from their graves for months after they have been buried. 
>   [...]  This is one example."

>(First ellipsis is in Lenski;  bracketed ellipsis is added by me.)

>An actual geyser, of course, would be impossible, but it is well-known
>that the decomposition in mass graves in warm weather produces a great
>deal of gas, which can expel ichor, rotting flesh, and mud up through
>the surface of the ground.  While, strictly speaking, that's neither
>blood nor a geyser, it is almost certainly what Elie Wiesel's source was
>talking about.  That's a third way to look at it, which Mr. Smith
>apparently did not consider, and I assume that, upon consideration, the
>typical reader will be nodding grimly in agreement with me when I say
>that if Mr. Wiesel is crazy for believing this is possible, then I must
>be crazy as well.

	Which takes less than one week, the abdomen ruptures and that is
the end of if.  

	But do not forget that Wiesel and his father chose to retreat
with the Germans rather than be liberated so you have to admit
neither was "wrapped too tight."

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 18:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 41215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:11:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>## So, if someone is convicted of crime A and crime B, does
>## this mean that crimes A and B necessarily took place at
>## the same location?
> 
># Now just how would the witnesses know about both?  Or are you
># saying he was accused of both operating Treblinka in Poland AND a
># doormat factory some place else?  
> 
>He was in charge of the utilization of what was plundered from
>the victims; not only the victims of Treblinka.
> 
># You think he was in charge of a doormat factory?  
> 
>You think your IQ is 163?

	I thought it was clear from the beginning that the doormat story
was also a lie.  It appears you believe it.  After all, there had
to be a lot left after it was used to stuff mattresses and make
socks for submariners and all the other really important uses
that were made of it.  

	The steam story was fabricated too.  Get over it.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 20:36:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41227 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:42:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4p4ki8$1i6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <2JUN199618085139@cmi.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
>>(Danny) writes:
>>
>>but first Tom Moran writes:
>>> 
>>>>	I would invite anyone to become aware of those old Holocaust
>>>>accounts which have been deleted from the story and check out Nizkor
>>>>and see if any are there still being stated directly or implied as
>>>>still true. The soap story, numbers at Auschwitz and a few others. 
>>>>	The reason for Nizkor is as stated. To have someone out posting
>>>>absurd things that the likes of the Wiesenthal Center wants to avoid
>>>>responsiblilty for, yet to have it said.
>>>
>>>    You did lots of dancing and asking of other people to do your work
>>for
>>>    you, but I note that you did not clearly name even *one* fact that
>>>    Nizkor and SWC differ on.  I don't feel obligated to "check out
>>Nizkor
>>>    and see if any are there...."  You made the assertion; you present
>>the
>>>    facts.
>>>
>>>    So far, you are just hot air.
>>>
>>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>>
>>Actually, Dan, he did name some: the soap story, numbers at Auschwitz, and
>>a few others.  I don't know what the "few others" are, and I don't know
>>exactly what he means by the numbers at Auschwitz, but there is an
>>extensive "soap" file under Stutthof, which, among other things, contains
>>descriptions handbags and such made from skin that was tanned under the
>>supervision of the same Dr. Spanner who allegedly oversaw the human soap
>>production.  BTW, Dr. Spanner was never prosecuted in West Germany for
>>these alleged activities.
>>
>>I think Tom misunderstands Nizkor's purpose.  It is an all-purpose
>>archive.  As such, it is invaluable (the only thing it lacks is a cross
>>link to the other side, _they_ always cross link Nizkor.)  By going
>>through its files you can call up all kinds of stuff, which, although it
>>may not be in the current consensus of historians, is still useful.  Hell,
>>I have even found revisionist stuff in there.  When they get the entire
>>IMT and NMT transcripts on line that will also be a tremendous boon, even
>>though those transcripts will also contain their share of falsehoods,
>>like, for example, the Soviet generated testimony on Katyn!

>	The problem with the 'all purpose proposal' as to Nizkor files is
>they include obsolete, debunked, deleted past facts without informing
>the reader they are in fact no longer a position of the story. 

	Credit where credit is due.  At least it does not do a 1984 on
history like some other sites.  

	In that regard there is probably enough material there to do
"History of the Holocaust:  The Evolution of Truth."  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 20:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41231 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:48:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Chuck  wrote:

>Troll ?  This kind of thing belongs in the 1st grade. Name calling 
>is the mark of an immature mind. As for the book,it's pure bigotry.

	You mean like "nazi-boy"?  "neo-nazi"?  "anti-semite"?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 20:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:50:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4p3nom$m1@news.ios.com>, Chuck  wrote:

>>Troll ?  This kind of thing belongs in the 1st grade. Name calling 
>>is the mark of an immature mind. As for the book,it's pure bigotry.

>Oh goody, another net.newbie determined to demonstrate his
>abject ignorance. Perhaps he should speak to Mr. Moran :-)

	nazi-boy, neo-nazi, anti-semite  

	The three most common defamatories used here.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 20:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 41247 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I only had orders to pour in the gas'
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:57:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05  3:59:24 PM CDT 1996
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>So, Giwer, what does "Prussic acid" mean?

	Hydrocyanic acid, hydrogen cyanide, HCN.  What did you think it
meant, Zyklon B?  

	But I do understand your position though.  Soap means Brillo pad.
Orange juice means an orange.  Anything to salvage a story
talking about something else.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 21:12:36 PDT 1996
Article: 41259 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:03:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>Marty Kelley  wrote:

>>On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Bud wrote:
>>
>>> Moran is winning.
>>
>>Winning what?  And how?
>>
>>> Very often (not always) his point is completely ignored and the only=20
>>> reply he receives is rhetorical name-calling, or some =93personal quip or=
>>=20
>>> accusation and such, without a shred of it having to do with his point. =
>>=20
>>> Now to any reasonable man, one who is willing to learn about and=20
>>> understand the basis of debate, this type of response show a weakness of=
>>=20
>>> either evidence or control by the opposition...
>>
>>I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, "Bud" (why the pseudonym?), and=20
>>assume you've been here only a short while.  When Mr. Moran first began=20
>>posting here (September 1995, I believe), most respondents to his posts gav=
>>e=20
>>careful, detailed replies to his questions and corrected his errors of=20
>>fact.  For the past few months, however, he has largely been re-posting=20
>>material which has already been discussed and refuted.  Danny Mittleman=20
>>has posted elsewhere the URL's of several DejaNews articles where you=20
>>can see Mr. Moran's arguments taken apart piece by piece.

>	The problem here is Mr.Kelley thinks I post things for him. The
>post are not even intended for him or any of the others who have
>already responded. Any repost are intended for any new vistors to
>alt.rev. Mr.Kelley says they have all been refuted. He has posted the
>the URL of Moran's dossier in Nizkor. What more is there to say. Next
>time I repost all he or any allies have to do is post a URL.
>	I trust all the contents of the dossier are in order. No
>intenetioanl deletions, no special selections, everything in order as
>it happened. I haven't checked the dossier myself except twice, the
>last time about a month ago. At one time they had a number of my posts
>that I thought they were crazy for putting in there. Evidentally
>someone must have wised them up and they disappeared. I was motivated
>to post an article "What Nizkor Omits From Moran's Dossier" with a
>list of all that I have posted. Anyway, I'll take your word for it,
>Mr.Kelley, that it is all there.  

	You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
did you?  They are, after all, on a mission from god.  

>	Having my stuff in Nizkor is like having my own web page. 

>	Anyway. I post and repost.

	Which is what makes it valuable to have all of your posts canned
files.  That way it only takes a few seconds for you to get
something into the record and minutes for them to censor the
record.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 21:12:37 PDT 1996
Article: 41263 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:46:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05  1:47:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>
>>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>>Germany, March 5, 1946
>>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]

>>Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
>> 
>>A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>>   the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

>	He was there in the direct capacity of the crematoriums, five
>times, during the peak extermination years and all he can attest to is
>"Yes, I did see one ...".

	I notice also that although he is asked in the plural, he answers
in the singular.  This being contrary to the one krema one gas
chamber dogma.
 



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:28 PDT 1996
Article: 41271 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:48:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4p4od4$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p32j2$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>	Nobody is "suggesting" anything.  We are informing you that the 
>>>Wannsee Minutes included *all* the Jews in the Soviet Union which includes 
>>>areas that were never controlled by the nazis.  You will note that in the 
>>>figures you post there is a significant difference in the number of
>>>Jews listed for the Soviet Union:
>>
>>>>  Simon Wiesenthal Center
>>>>       Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4%			1,100,000
>>>36.40%
>>>>  3,021,978
>>
>>
>>>>  Wannsee Protocol
>>>>  USSR                                  5,000,000		5,000,000
>>>>    Ukraine            		   2,994,684
>>>>    White Russia
>>>>    excluding Bialystok                   446,484			0
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>                      Total    over    11,000,000			
>>>11,291,300
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>This difference clearly explains your "discrepancy" (not to mention the 
>>>700,000 Jew listed in "unoccupied France."  Thank you for posting the 
>>>evidence that, once more, you were incorrect.
>>
>>	Sorry, but the SWC does NOT say "occupied Russia" so it is not
>>clear what point you think you are making

>    Sorry, but the Wannsee Protocol does NOT say "occupied USSR" so it is
>not clear what point you think you are making.

	Correct.  One says Soviet Union, the other says USSR, different
terms for the same thing.  There are no limitations on either
term.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:29 PDT 1996
Article: 41276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, lying Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:54:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4p4oos$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p2rb5$t68@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4p24ol$oin@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>[email from Colin McGregor, administrator of idirect.com, deleted]
>>>>
>>>>	But you have to remember that 87 of those messages were those he
>>>>requested to receive from me which constituted a mail bomb from
>>>>Marduk of Internet Direct which is within the "acceptable use
>>>>policy" of his organization.  
>>
>>>    I will remember that.  I will also remember the fact that you do not
>>>deny lying about having information from Mr. McGregor identifying Gordon
>>>McFee as Marduk.
>>
>>	I have not claimed that.  Why do you say I did?  

>        "Were it not for MacGregor admitting you are Marduk there might
>have been a problem with identifying you."

>Matt Giwer, "Re: Giwer-troll is not droll", 26th April 1996,
>article ID <4lq1hv$4k4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>.  See

>    http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1309722&server=dnserver.dbapr


>    Oh.  You're right.  You said it was MacGregor, not McGregor.  Sorry
>for correcting your spelling error. 

>    Any more lies you want to tell while DejaNews is online?

	Now where does it say I had information?  

	Of course, almanac being hosted on idirect does increase the
connection more than a little.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:30 PDT 1996
Article: 41278 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:01:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4p2bq5$dgp@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4op0g7$igv@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4oj0fq$hl2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>	Holohuggers have posted the source, Pressac if I remember
>>>>>>>	^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>correctly.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>I'm outa here.
>>>> 
>>>>>>	If you can' take the heat, get out of the oven.
>>>> 
>>>>>Nope. You offer very little in the way of heat, Mr. Giwer. You provide
>>>>>insults 98% of the time. This makes your replies useless.
>>>> 
>>>>	I do not insult, I describe correctly.  If the correct
>>>>description offends you folks, stop reading.
>> 
>>>    Anyone reading this thread (as quoted *in context* above) can see:
>> 
>>>    1. You described one camp in this discussion as "holohuggers"
>>>    (correct or not);
>> 
>>	You describe anyone who does not believe the current version (and
>>in the past all prior versions) as an antisemite and a neonazi,
>>right?  Yes, AFTER and only after I was called the above, did I
>>create the perjorative holohugger[s].  

>    I don't believe I have called you a neo-nazi.  If so, I apologize - I
>    don't think that you are one.  I think you are a troll.  My
>    non-professional judgment is that you are mentally ill.  But I don't
>    see you as a neo-nazi.

	Whether you did or did not you did not correct any of the other
"WE"s in here nor did you object to the plural.  Beyond that,
professionals agree that mental illness can not be assessed
without personal contact.  Therefore you are simply engaged in a
holohugger smear campaign.  And that is nothing new.

>    There are several points where I have disagreed with posters without
>    thinking they were antisemites *or* neo-nazis.  I disagree with some of
>    Goldhagen's analysis.  I have disagreed at times with Gord McFee and
>    Ehrlich.  I disagreed strongly with Ken McVay in e-mail yesterday.  I
>    don't think any of those people are antisemites or neo-nazis.

	Total bullshit.   But then of course, you will insist upon the
same rules apply to all will you not?   And in doing so you will
insist that you post the original messages of your own claims
will not you?  

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:31 PDT 1996
Article: 41280 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!uw-coco!nwnews.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:24:33 GMT
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Lines: 179
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4om694$4u2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	It is only your lack of knowledge...

>As usual, Mr. Giwer begins with an insult!  That is because he is
>more interested in trying to provoke me, than to get at the truth.

	A statement of fact is not an insult.   

>	...of present day conditions and political systems that that
>	lets you believe anyone espousing any variation of the NSDAP
>	form of Marxism could arise today.  

>Mr. Giwer is playing semantic games again.  

	You really do need to know what sematics is all about.  When you
are finished with Science and Sanity, get back to me.  

I never wrote that an
>exact copy of NSDAP could arise today, especially not in America,
>where very few people can understand the German language.
>Nevertheless, anti-Semitism is on the upswing all across Europe and
>America, and all it would take is a prolonged economic crisis for
>some advocates to gain political support.

	Who gives a rat's ass and why?  

	Listen VERY, VERY carefully.  It is you folks who pretend to
antisemitism being the litmus test who are preparing a ground for
it happening again.   

	In you definition, a Jew coming to power to send foreigners could
not possibly be a statist.  

	Yet you clowns defend the power of state at every turn and
particularly the power of state to make criminal the expression
of thought.  

	You folks are the Nazis.  May you all die soon.  

>	Your statements are so devoid of aculturation...

>Mr. Giwer's statements are routinely devoid of literacy, as the above
>misuse of the word "aculturation" demonstrates.  But then again, Mr.
>Giwer has enough difficulty with simple words.  He ought to avoid the
>complex words!

	There is a book on the subject.  Read it.

>	...that I find it difficult to believe anyone could write them
>	without reciting an article of indoctrination.  

>Mr. Giwer may also find this difficult to believe:  His opinion and
>four bits will buy a cup of coffee at the local diner, but it won't
>prevent me from exposing his ignorance.

	You have no idea of the cost of a cup of coffee these days
either.   

>	The closest any political party can get to marxism in a western
>	European democracy is a welfare state and that inspires strong
>	opposition.  

>Mr. Giwer believes that Nazism is a form of Marxism!  Yet he has the
>chutzpah to question my political sophistication.

	That is what Hitler said.  But what the hell, you statists are
all alike.  You can not tell the difference.  But then I have
posted this more than once in this NG.  You pretend you have
never read it.

  --Hitler to Rauschning

  The party is all-embracing.  It rules our lives in all their  
breadth and depth.  We must therefore develop branches of  the 
party in which the whole of individual life will be reflected.  
Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be 
regulated by the party as the representative of the general good.

There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual 
belongs to himself.  This is Socialism--not such trifles as the 
private possession of the means of production.

   "Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a 
discipline they cannot escape?  Let them then own land or 
factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the

State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless 
whether they are owners or workers.  All that, you see, is 
unessential.  Our Socialism goes far deeper...."

  "Private property" as conceived under the liberalistic economic

order was a reversal of the true concept of property.  This 
"private property" represented the right of the individual to 
manage and to speculate with inherited or acquired property as he

pleased, without regard for the

  "I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate

to admit.  The difference between them and myself is that I have 
really put into practice what these peddlers and pen-pushers have

timidly begun.... I had only to develop logically what Social 
Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize 
its evolution within the framework of democracy. National 
Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken

its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order."


>	Just who convinced you that the NSDAP party platform would
>	attract voters regardless of the holocaust?

>Once again, Mr. Giwer demonstrates his legendary inability to
>comprehend what he reads!  My last post clearly states that denying
>the Holocaust is essential to smoothing the way for a political
>takeover by racist political party.  Somehow, Mr. Giwer read that (if
>he does indeed read what he responds to) and got "regardless of the
>Holocaust" out of it.

	You are a frigging idiot to actually believe such nonsense.  A
multi-billionaire with credible access to the media in 1992 tried
it and failed.  But you believe that a bunch of screaming
shaveheads are going to get votes.

	What a tool!

>	If Jews had never existed, why would the party attract votes?  

>If Jews had never existed, who would Mr. Giwer have to provoke?  

	Whoever provokes me with patent lies as your kinf of Jews are
doing with your holocaust bullshit.

Why
>in the world would someone supposedly as intelligent as Mr. Giwer
>always claims to be, introduce the hypothetical non-exitence of Jews
>into a discussion of anti-Semitic politics?

	As a mere genius, you are not expected to understand unless you
work very hard to understand.

>Obviously, Mr. Giwer does not have the necessary brains to discuss
>even this issue intelligently.

	I was thinking of a mere genius such as yourself.

>	What you are suggesting is on the order superstition, as in
>	breaking a mirror means seven years bad luck.

>Whereas postulating a world without Jews in order to prove that Nazis
>could not possibly gain political power again, is the height of
>analytical thought!

	Gendanken Experiment.  Ever heard of it?  If not, sue the college
that shortchanged you on an undergraduate degree.

>	There in no more Nazism nor any Nazi ideology.

>That is exactly what a Nazi would say!

	Excuse me.  Why would a non-existant group say they do not exist?
Every self proclaimed neo-Nazi group I have heard of in fact
proudly announces it.  

	You appear to believe in secret Nazis hiding while the
"neo-nazis" are not hiding.  

	You are paranoid.

----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:32 PDT 1996
Article: 41286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, threat to Canada's national security? No,the real threat is Soviate style McVay Justice.
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:32:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <4p5214$blt@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4nus3o$flg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996May29.190720.6645@wpg.ramp.net> <4okht8$nep@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996May31.223855.24833@wpg.ramp.net> <4ood7g$ffp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p3t13$5em@news.ios.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31112 can.politics:49614 talk.politics.misc:384820 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1347 alt.revisionism:41286 alt.censorship:83980 comp.org.eff.talk:65627

Chuck  wrote:


> Anyone who fears free speach must have something to hide. Mr.McVay is 
>working hard to stiffle free speech in Canada and is in support of a 
>Soviate style hearing. This is a real threat to Canada and her citizens.
> Today it's Zundel for debate on the holocaust,tommorow its others for 
>tax protest and practicing Christianity. Don't think so ? There is a 
>major drive in the Jewish community to equate the Bible with hate and 
>there for out law it in some countries. This movemant is hell bent 
>because Jesus in John 8:41-45 calls jews the devils people. 

> Wake up  !

>P.S. So much for the choosen people myth that Billy Grahm and Pat 
>Robertson preach. I wonder how the can explain John 8:41-45 ?

	You don't think he would go in for book burning do you?  

	Or would you put anything beneath him to silence what he does not
want to hear?






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:32 PDT 1996
Article: 41289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:30:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4p32j2$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>  
>>  	So what is the difference in how the groupings are presented?
>>  Are you really suggesting that the Wannsee Conference simply
>>  "forgot" to mention Poland?  If so that puts them down to only 8
>>  Million Jews they were interested in.  

>	Nobody is "suggesting" anything.  We are informing you that the 
>Wannsee Minutes included *all* the Jews in the Soviet Union which includes 
>areas that were never controlled by the nazis.  You will note that in the figures you 
>post there is a significant difference in the number of Jews listed for the Soviet 
>Union:

>>  Simon Wiesenthal Center
>>       Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4%			1,100,000	
>36.40%
>>  3,021,978


>>  	Wannsee Protocol
>>       USSR                                  5,000,000			5,000,000
>>            Ukraine            		   2,994,684			
>>            White Russia
>>            excluding Bialystok                446,484			0
>>  
>>  
>>                           Total    over    11,000,000			
>11,291,300
>>


>	This difference clearly explains your "discrepancy" (not to mention the 
>700,000 Jew listed in "unoccupied France."  Thank you for posting the evidence 
>that, once more, you were incorrect.

	Sorry, but the SWC does NOT say "occupied Russia" so it is not
clear what point you think you are making




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:33 PDT 1996
Article: 41292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!news.uky.edu!news.campus.mci.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keeping files on Jews
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:31:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4p32m7$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4nlbi9$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4o5ki0$dgo@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ov1if$28e@access5.digex.net> <4p24gh$oin@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4p2hpa$eue@access5.digex.net>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p24gh$oin@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4o5ki0$dgo@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>	My preoccupation?  When it is included with every recitation of
>>>>the mantra it would appear others are in fact obsessed with them.
>>>>I merely mention it as nazi-like on occasion.  But then perhaps I
>>>>can start a site that keeps track of Jews just to test what it
>>>>will be called.
>>
>>>    I already know of a computerized data repository keeping track of
>>>Jews.  I call it a synagogue office.
>>
>>	You mean they make a permanent record of everything they say for
>>public consumption?

>    Yes.  We call that the minutes of the board and executive committee
>meetings and the minutes of the semiannual general membership meeting.  In
>theory they are available to the membership for inspection, though I have
>yet to see anyone make such a request other than an officer or board
>member trying to remember just what was decided on a particular issue. 
>Also the Rabbi's column and the President's Message in the newsletter.  It
>is all on disk.  Very Nazi-like of us, I'm sure you'll agree.

	Bullshit.
	



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:34 PDT 1996
Article: 41293 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !READ THIS ONE - ITS KINDA FUNNY
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:19:41 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) writes:
> 
># WHO DO YOU WISH TO FIND A LIFE PARTNER FOR?
>#
># Enter: Matt Giwer
> 
>[...]

># Matt Giwer Life Partner match:
>#
># State: Ohio
># City: Cincinatti
># Org: Reds
># Name: Marjorie Schott
> 
>Only because Juana Bormann is already dead. She would have been
>perfect for him.

	Were you not the person objecting to personal attacks?  Or is
that another one way street?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:35 PDT 1996
Article: 41295 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: How to Spot a aryan
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:15:14 GMT
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Chuck  wrote:

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>In article <4p085n$7g5@peru.it.earthlink.net>, 
>>Blackman  wrote:
>>
>>>Could you please expand on the term Aryan.  Could you share with everyone 
>>>what it means to you?
>>
>>Perhaps I can assist....
>>
>>	Low self-esteem
>>	Lack of achievement
>>	Poor education
>>	Little ambition
>>	Refusal to pay own dues
>>	Tendency to blame others for own lack of
>>	accomplishment in life -- i.e. serious problem
>>	accepting responsibility for themselves

> That is pure hate Mr.McVay. I would bet you would never say that about 
>Black poeple,Jewish people or any other politically correct group.

	The folks live for hate.  Or hadn't you noticed yet.  You can not
have missed that they use the slightest excuse to wallow in it.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:35 PDT 1996
Article: 41303 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Don't mention the heroes
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:07:43 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4p2bpo$dgp@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> A few days ago, I posted the USHMM guidelines for concentrating
>> upon the Jewish Holocaust.  You will recall it advised teachers
>> not to dwell upon the individual acts by ordinary Germans to save
>> Jews and that it was no more than 1/2 of 1%.  

>Indeed. Giwer, of course, tells a half-truth. The United States Holocaust
>Memorial Museum's GUIDELINES FOR TEACHING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST states the
>following:

>"8. Do not romanticize history to engage students' interest. One of the
>great risks of Holocaust education is the danger of fostering cynicism in
>our students by exposing them to the worst of human nature. Regardless,
>accuracy of fact
>must be a teacher's priority. People who risked their lives to rescue
>victims of Nazi oppression provide useful and important role models for
>students, yet an overemphasis on heroic tales in a unit on the Holocaust
>results in an inaccurate and unbalanced account of the history. It is
>important to bear in mind that "at best, less than one-half of one percent
>of the total population [of non-Jews] under Nazi occupation helped to
>rescue Jews." [Oliner and Oliner, 1991, p. 363]"

	It is good to see you kept a copy of it.  

>Clearly, the USHMM guidlines did not state nor imply that "teachers
>[should] not to dwell upon the individual acts by ordinary Germans" but in
>fact to "not romanticize history to engage students' interest." Quite a
>different thing. Note that the USHMM guidlines also stated that rescuers
>"provide useful and important role models for students" but warns that
>_overemphasizing_  "heroic tales... results in an inaccurate and
>unbalanced account of the history."

	Of course 250,000 people would give an "inaccurate" account of
events particularly in a repressive, "would you like to join
them?" environment.  If it was as you folks would have it then
help was a capital offense.  Just how many heroes would you
expect under such circumstances?  

	I know, however many there were, there were not enough.  

>The simple and undisputable fact is that most Germans did NOT aid the
>victims of the Holocaust- whether they be Jewish OR gentile. No pretenses
>should be made that they did. No inflating of the role that these _very_
>few brave and extraordinary people had in the overall course of the
>Holocaust should be made. It would not be the truth. It would not be the
>history of what happened. 

	1 is a hero, a quarter million is only a statistic.  

>That, however, does not mean we shouldn't honor these wonderful people for
>their bravery and sacrfices and learn from what they did. We most
>certainly should. But it must be done in the proper perspective. 

	250,000 people risking their own lives to help who knows how many
people but at least one has to be put into perspective.  

>See: http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/education/guidelines.html

>[snip]

>>         We also note that there were 50 million Germans. 

>It is also worth noting that there were 12 million acts of murder
>committed against non-combatants during WWII under the authority of,
>and/or by, the German government. 

>> It is rare in this world that people would discourage teachers
>> from teaching about the 250,000 people who performed these acts
>> of heroism at what is presumed to have been great personal risk.

>Here Giwer lies outright. This can be seen by the position of the USHMM in
>stating that "[p]eople who risked their lives to rescue victims of Nazi
>oppression provide useful and important role models for students." What
>Giwer intentionally fails to acknowledge is that the USHMM is cautioning
>against the perils of romanticizing history by overemphasizing the role of
>a comparitively minute segment of the German population, not discouraging
>teachers to teach about those Germans who helped the victims of the
>Holocust. 

>Giwer, being a loathesome coward and bigot, has intentionally given a
>false context of his invention to the USHMM guidline, in this particular
>example of his, so that he may slander The United States Holocaust
>Memorial Museum by feigning  concern for those who bravely risked much to
>help victims of the Holocaust.  

>Giwer's crocodile tears fool nobody. They do, however, attempt to diminish
>both the victims  of the Holocaust and those that risked all to aid them.
>This, of course, was Giwer's intention all along. 

	Rather than address the 250,000 who risked their lives you would
rather engage in a personal attack upon me in hopes of diverting
attention to the image the USHMM wants to project for the by
invitation only Jewish holocaust.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:36 PDT 1996
Article: 41304 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:14:10 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>While reading what Keith Morrison  wrote, see if you can
>find the phrase, "can't stop it":

>	You ever see a person die in a car accident, Giwer?  I don't
>	mean seeing them carry away those nice plastic bags, I mean
>	arriving when they were breathing and not being able to to a
>	damn thing in time so you can only watch them die?

>	You ever go into a burning building and pull out a child who
>	won't see their third birthday or an old man who collapsed three
>	feet from the door and never moved again?

>	I've met the people who've had to do these things and the one
>	thing they always say is that nothing can prepare you for it
>	until you are there staring it in the face.  Every police
>	officer and firefighter and doctor knows that they will
>	eventually, probably, have someone die but nothing can prepare
>	them for it until it happens.

>Note the phrase, "can't stop it," appears nowhere in this section of
>Mr. Morrison's post.  Yet this is the answer he gets in article
><4oqlkd$2b@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, where Matt Giwer
>(mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Let us put this is perspective.  He is an Lt. Col. reporting to
>	the two star Mueller.  What is this "can't stop it" crap?  He
>	issues an order to stop it on the spot.  

>Obviously, Mr. Giwer is not even responding to Mr. Morrison's post.
>Possibly, he did not even bother to read it.

	There is nothing to respond to that has anything to do with the
subject under discussion.

>Anyone this impaired in his reading abilities has no business
>discussing these complex issues.

	But of course you do see something on topic.  Point it out.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:37 PDT 1996
Article: 41307 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:06:57 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On 29 May 1996 05:52:37 -0400, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>>Reply to Morris continued
>>Since a row of 4 spots appear on one or two of several aerial 
>>photographs of Crema II Van Pelt has gone for a down the
>>center North/South axis of the building arrangment.
>>Since there is a central beam running the lenght of the
>>room he has to fudge a little and put the holes to the side.

>My what an interesting characterization! There is a support beam down
>the middle and Van Pelt "fudges" by taking account of it. What would
>you rather he did, Mr. Allen? Say that the holes were right down the
>middle so that you could complain that he *didn't* take account of the
>beam?

	Actually they are off to the east of the centerline and not in a
straight line and they are about 10 feet on a side.  You should
look at the pictures of them some time before they vanish forever
>from  Nizkor.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:38 PDT 1996
Article: 41348 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 01:17:10 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4om694$4u2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>	Just who convinced you that the NSDAP party platform would
>	attract voters regardless of the holocaust?

>I responded:

>	Once again, Mr. Giwer demonstrates his legendary inability to
>	comprehend what he reads!  My last post clearly states that
>	denying the Holocaust is essential to smoothing the way for
>	a political takeover by racist political party.  Somehow,
>	Mr. Giwer read that (if he does indeed read what he responds
>	to) and got "regardless of the Holocaust" out of it.

>In article <4p0rus$9hh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) responds, and his response bers no
>relation to my comments, proving once again that Mr. Giwer has
>reading difficulties that he will not admit even to himself:

>	You are a frigging idiot to actually believe such nonsense.
>	A multi-billionaire with credible access to the media in 1992
>	tried it and failed.

>Assuming that Mr. Giwer is referring to Ross Perot, that was not a
>racist political party, did not deny the Holocaust, and did rather
>well considering that economic conditions were not very bad.  Which
>all goes to show that this is not an appropriate analogy.

	Ahhh, I see.  You want more than just no gassing of Jews as
conditions.  Right up front you want to bring in economic
conditions.  

>	But you believe that a bunch of screaming shaveheads are going
>	to get votes.

>My post clearly stated that my analogy was to former Alabama Governor
>George Wallace's political machinations in the seventies, which was
>only stopped by a would-be assassin's bullet.  

	He was a DEMOCRAT for god's sake.  He was using the Democratic
political machine that had been in power since the end of the
reconstruction period to get to be Governor.  

	He ran for President on a third party ticket.  If I remember
right he got about 14% of the vote.  Some threat.  

The "screaming
>shaveheads" may not be able to lead such a movement, but they
>certainly can volunteer to staff it and vote it in.  When Eugene
>McCarthy mounted his failed bid for the presidency, plenty of hippies
>volunteered to help.  Their slogan was "Keep clean for Gene."  I
>don't see why America's skinheads could not clean up ther image for a
>George Wallace type of populist racist campaign.

>Of course, Mr. Giwer read that, but it did not strike him as an easy
>position to attack, so he substituted a position I did not take for
>it, and attacked this strawman.

	You, on the other hand, want a NEW political party to win the
presidency and a majority in both houses of Congress.  This is no
fool parliamentary system here.  You can't pull a "form a
government" takeover here.  Maybe in Canada but not here.  

>	What a tool!

	At least you learned a new term.  

>This proves that Mr. Giwer's affliction is psycho-sexual in nature!
>Right in the middle of the discussion, Mr. Giwer is distracted by his
>private parts.  He must be skilled at typing with one hand.

	But you should have picked it up at least from Animal House.  I
am quite surprised this is your first exosure to it.  

>	Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>	evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
>an expert to begin with.

	You refuse to tell what truth is.  Why is that?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:38 PDT 1996
Article: 41360 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Don't mention the heroes
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:00:58 GMT
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18. Did all Germans support Hitler's plan for the persecution of
the Jews? 

     Answer: Although the entire German population was not in
agreement with Hitler's
     persecution of the Jews, there is no evidence of any large
scale protest regarding their
     treatment. There were Germans who defied the April 1, 1933
boycott and purposely bought
     in Jewish stores, and there were those who aided Jews to
escape and to hide, but their
     number was very small. Even some of those who opposed Hitler
were in agreement with his
     anti-Jewish policies. Among the clergy, Dompropst Bernhard
Lichtenberg of Berlin publicly
     prayed for the Jews daily and was, therefore, sent to a
concentration camp by the Nazis.
     Other priests were deported for their failure to cooperate
with Nazi antisemitic policies, but
     the majority of the clergy complied with the directives
against German Jewry and did not
     openly protest. 

=====

	A few days ago, I posted the USHMM guidelines for concentrating
upon the Jewish Holocaust.  You will recall it advised teachers
not to dwell upon the individual acts by ordinary Germans to save
Jews and that it was no more than 1/2 of 1%.  

	We note here that the SWC appears to agree with this position.

	We also note that there were 50 million Germans.  

	It is rare in this world that people would discourage teachers
>from  teaching about the 250,000 people who performed these acts
of heroism at what is presumed to have been great personal risk.


	At least one quarter of one million individual acts of courage
are supposed to be left unmentioned.  

	Simply because it does not fit in with the official way the
Jewish holocaust is required to be viewed.  



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:39 PDT 1996
Article: 41361 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:16:36 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4otppv$cq3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Very good.

>What Mr. Giwer describes as "very good" was proof that his first
>contention was absolutely and positively wrong!  Note the cunning way
>he side-steps having ot admit that he is wrong!


>	Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>	common among many people.  It runs something like 25% in the US.

>But how common was it in pre-war Eastern Europe?  Don't ask Mr. Giwer.
>He does not even know.  He would rather base his opinions of pre-war
>Eastern Europe on conditions in modern America.  then he has the
>chutzpah to claim that everyone else is applying modern conditions to
>Europe of half-a-century ago.


>	It is not unique to Jews.  It is not a discriminant between Jews
>	and non-Jews as you were trying to make it out to be.

>Not in modern America, but what about pre-war Poland?  Don't hold
>your breath waiting for Mr. Giwer to answer the question!  Being Mr.
>Giwer means never having to answer a straightforward question and
>never having to provide evidence for any outrageous and erroneous
>statement.

	So you are saying that it was a uniquely Jewish form of sexual
mutilation in Poland.  But then, that is what the person who
suggested circumcision was a discriminant said also.  

	Apparently there are experts on the matter in this very
conference.  Hopefully they will speak up.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:40 PDT 1996
Article: 41362 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McMartin Trial
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20:13:02 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4oebnb$iur@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	I happen to have an HBO rerun of it going on in the background
>	while playing with this group.  It is of the McMartin trial.  

>And what did Mr. Giwer learn from this made-for-television movie?

>	The holocaust is worse than this.  Zero evidence and forged at
>	best testimony.

>So, an old HBO rerun proves the Holocaust is fake!

	Not in the least.  It is simply an example of what passes for a
fair trial when there is an emotional subject involved.  

>Seems that Mr. Giwer has finally provided us with a citation for one
>of his assertions, and it turns out to be way off-the-wall, as
>anticipated.

>We cannot trust tenured professors of history, but we can trust a
>Hollywood movie on some other subject entirely.

	It was not made in Hollywood.  

>It's an interesting thought process, but all it proves is that Mr.
>Giwer is not mentally fit to discuss topics of such a serious and
>complex nature.

	You thought the McMartin's should have been convicted?  Or did
you miss all of the news coverage of the trial?  

>	Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>	evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
>an expert to begin with.

	What is truth?


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:41 PDT 1996
Article: 41363 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:11:11 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## 1) Where does it say that the actual manufacturing of items
>##    from human hair took place in Treblinka?

># The SAME person was convicted of BOTH crimes.  What further
># connection do you insist upon?

>So, if someone is convicted of crime A and crime B, does
>this mean that crimes A and B necessarily took place at
>the same location?

	Now just how would the witnesses know about both?  Or are you
saying he was accused of both operating Treblinka in Poland AND a
doormat factory some place else?  

>Or, are you really so dumb so as to think that Pohl - an SS
>Lt. General, no less - was convicted of *personally* killing
>people in Trablinka and of *personally* using the hair of the
>victims for various purposes? Is this what's confusing you?

	You think he was in charge of a doormat factory?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 06:56:42 PDT 1996
Article: 41367 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Scherpe came out of the room and said: I can't anymore'
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:54:41 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>(Four Polish witnesses, three of them doctors, and two SS men, testify
>about murder with phenol injections in Auschwitz. Among the murdered
>were 120 children from the village of Zamosc).

>All the following testimonies are excerpted from "Auschwitz: the
>Proceedings Against Mulka and Others" by Bernd Nauman. The SS men
>who usually did the killing were Hantl, Scherpe, and Klehr (who also
>participated in the gassing operations).

>Testimony of Professor Fejkiel from Cracow (Poland) who was arrested by 
>the Nazis and imprisoned in Auschwitz between October 1940 and January
>1945 (p. 153-4):  
>----------------------------------------------------------------------                                       
>The witness reports that the experiments to kill prisoners with 
>injections were begun in 1942.

>"First they tried benzine, but that turned out to be impractical. I
>know of a case where death did not occur for forty-five minutes. They
>looked for a quicker method. The second medium was hydrogen; then came
>phenolic acid".

	Hydrogen?  Amazing that three doctors never heard of the effect
of air being injected into the bloodstream.  

	But then were have a "professor/inmate" here who witnessed the
development of the procedure so he must know.  Professor of what?


>First it was administered intravenously, then directly into the heart:
>"I assume that the intravenous method took too long".

	Lets see, a 7-8 inch needle ...  

	Perhaps they were strong enough to be shoved between the ribs...


	Through the half inch of muscle into the heart ...  

	Never heard of arteries ...  

>"Do you know who killed, where the murders took place, and how many
>people were the victims of such injections?"

>"I will begin with the number killed: I assume that about 30,000 people
>were killed in this fashion".

	30,000 people individually strapped down while this needle was
being shoved into their bodies.  

>First came infirm Jews, then other hospital patients, then people not
>hospitalized, including prisoners "which the Gestapo sent in a round-
>about way".

>"Who did the killing?"

>"At first Dr. Entress himself, then Klehr, and then - in this order - 
>Scherpe and Hantl. Hantl did it rarely. We thought of Hantl as a decent
>man and were surprised that he did it".

>Testimony of SS men Klehr (p. 71):
>------------------------------------------
>"How did you kill these prisoners?"
>"Well, like before. With a shot of phenol into the heart".


>SS men Scherpe is asked about the murder of the Zamosc children (p. 79):
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>According to testimony by numerous witnesses during the pretrial
>hearing, at least 119 children were murdered with phenol injections
>in the closing days of February, 1943. Force was used to get them into
>the executioner's chair, and Scherpe himself gave them the lethal
>injection into their hearts. It was so horrible that the "medic" ran
>away in desperation. The next day his colleague Hantl, a co-defendant,
>murdered the remaining 80 children.

	Shorter needles.  

>"You broke down and couldn't go on?" the judge asks.
>"That is exaggerated. It isn't true".

>Scherpe no longer wants to admit what he himself said earlier, that the
>children, panic-stricken, had screamed.

>"That is not so. I didn't say that. It is also not true. They suspected
>nothing. They probably thought they were being inoculated".

	A 5-6 inch needle going in from above or below the rib cage leads
them to suspect nothing.  

>The last boy waiting outside began to cry and called for his companions
>who didn't return. And that was the only indication the defendant had
>that the children may have feared death.


>Polish physician, Dr. Klodzinski, testifies about the murder of the 
>Zamosc children (p. 152):
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>"In the afternoon came the order to kill the children. They were led
>into the washroom, and told to undress and line up. And then Scherpe
>came; I still remember that".

>Klodzinski speaks of the dead silence in Block 20 at that moment; 
>nothing was heard except thumps "- it was a muffled sound" - as the
>heads and bodies of the slain children fell to the floor of the 
>washroom.

>"Suddenly Scherpe came out of the room and said 'I can't anymore', and
>left. After a while Hantl took his place and and murdered the remaining
>children".


>Warsaw physician Dr. Glowacki testifies (p. 137-8):
>---------------------------------------------------
>"How many in your opinion were selected by the defendant [Klehr] on his
>own authority?"

>"He certainly selected and killed more than 10,000".

>[...]

>But the witness saw how Scherpe "personally administered injections in
>Block 20. It happened during the murder of children from the vicinity
>of Zamosc. There were so many of them that they had to line them up
>between the barracks. Some of the children wee led into the area of
>Block 20, where Scherpe killed them while the others were still playing
>outside. There were more than 100".

>He remembers this case so well because Scherpe had suddenly paused. "We
>thought he was conscience-stricken and that was the reason he broke off
>in the middle of murdering the children. I clearly remember him 
>stopping. He left, and we never saw him again after that. Hantl took 
>over. Hantl finished the murder of the children".

>Stanislaus Glowa testifies (p. 183-186):
>----------------------------------------
>Glowa, like many of the witnesses who preceded him, tells of the 
>"experimental gassing" at the end of 1941 in Block 11, of the slayings
>with phenol, first at Block 28 and then in Block 20 of the prisoner
>hospital.

>"Klehr, Scherpe and Hantl regularly took part in the killings with 
>phenol. But I would like to point out at this time, for the sake of
>justice, if I had to set up a scale of responsibility, that the last-
>named behaved like saints compared to Klehr".

>[...]

>The court also hears this witness tell of the fate of 120 boys from the
>Polish village of Zamosc. Their parents had been killed, and the
>children were brought to Auschwitz, where, after a few weeks, it was
>decided to kill them as well. Work-detail leader Palitzch brought them
>into the courtyard of the hospital on a February morning in 1943, where
>the played and were given food by older prisoners. 

>"They were hungry and frightened and told of having been beaten. All of
>us felt sorry for them. Again and again they asked: 'Will we be killed?
>Why?'. They had to wait a few hours to the end".

>Prisoner-clerk Glowa sat in the aisle of hospital building 20, where
>almost daily he crossed of the names of patients "injected" by Klehr
>from the list of inmates. Not far from where he sat was the curtain 
>behind which the victims had to stand in the corridor until a prisoner 
>took them into the "examination room" where Klehr was waiting for them 
>with his phenol injection.

>"Scherpe and Hantl came in that afternoon, and they worked for a long
>time. In order to shorten the terrible torment of the children, I would
>take them to the curtain and tell them they are going to be bathed. The
>first ones had screamed with terror in the room".

	Just above they were no screaming and suspected nothing.  

>"Do you have children"? Glowa asks in a breaking voice, and then 
>continues: "It was horrible. Why did they kill us? That is why I 
>helped, to shorten the torment. After it was over I saw Hantl in a 
>state of complete collapse". 

>

>The court at Frankfurt sentenced Klehr to life in prison, Scherpe to
>4 years and 6 months, Hantl to 3 years and 6 months. Since Hantl had
>served his sentence in confinement awaiting trial, he left the court a
>free man.

	What was the reason?  Perhaps if you posted the complete
transcript we would all know.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 07:59:27 PDT 1996
Article: 21641 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a White Power Ranger
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:56:55 GMT
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luriete@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Joshua Lurie-Turrell) wrote:

>Chuck (weller@wrg.2jq.uk.com) wrote:

>:  Keith,how old are you ? This post is childish and in and of its self
>:  bigoted.

>I thought it was pretty funny, you annoying little nazi fuck.

	It is better to lead by example than to engage in undergraduate
name calling.  

	Or are you an example?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 07:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 21644 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jews = Communism. Read it and weep from U.S. Archives
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:17:51 GMT
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"D. Braun"  wrote:

>So what?  Its also common knoledge that there have been anti-semites in
>the US from its inception, and in Europe for a thousand years.  Idiot.
>Hey listen to this!!! Did you know Ian, that the KKK marched on washington
>in the 1920's and had thousands of marchers??!! Wow! Was this country
>great or what, back in the good old days!! And then the Jews wrecked
>everything!!

	It appears you are claiming the Jews had something to do with the
slow demise of the KKK.  If that is your position, could you be
more specific?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 08:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 31127 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a White Power Ranger
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:56:55 GMT
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luriete@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Joshua Lurie-Turrell) wrote:

>Chuck (weller@wrg.2jq.uk.com) wrote:

>:  Keith,how old are you ? This post is childish and in and of its self
>:  bigoted.

>I thought it was pretty funny, you annoying little nazi fuck.

	It is better to lead by example than to engage in undergraduate
name calling.  

	Or are you an example?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 08:14:31 PDT 1996
Article: 31129 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jews = Communism. Read it and weep from U.S. Archives
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:17:51 GMT
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"D. Braun"  wrote:

>So what?  Its also common knoledge that there have been anti-semites in
>the US from its inception, and in Europe for a thousand years.  Idiot.
>Hey listen to this!!! Did you know Ian, that the KKK marched on washington
>in the 1920's and had thousands of marchers??!! Wow! Was this country
>great or what, back in the good old days!! And then the Jews wrecked
>everything!!

	It appears you are claiming the Jews had something to do with the
slow demise of the KKK.  If that is your position, could you be
more specific?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 09:45:09 PDT 1996
Article: 55343 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the BIG LIE exposed
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:49:46 GMT
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Membari  wrote:

>Who is this Huber freak? This monster has posted God knows how many 
>articles of lies against the Jewish people and he doesn't seem to stop. 
>Dear friends, do any of you know who he is? Is a war criminal or 
>something? Membari would like to look into this matter further.

	A B5 freak should be able to spell better.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:43 PDT 1996
Article: 41376 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:23:10 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4p27m6$ejn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>> 
>> >M. Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >>Very good.  Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>> >>common among many people.  It runs something like 25% in the US.
>> 
>> >Perhaps the word is "did" run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>> >newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years.  The
>> >rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced the
>> >incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer.  Subsequent
>> >investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>> >effective in this regard.
>> 
>> Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
>> until studies were conducted some 30 years ago.  You have a long
>> way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
>> grounds.  

	More religious fantasy invoked regarding tribal superstitions.  

>Giwer makes the false assumption that the hygenic effects of circumcision
>are dependant on medical studies being performed. While this may be a fine
>assumption in regards to the observer effecting the outcome of quantum
>mechanical experiments, it holds no water in the macroscopic world.

>Giwer's claim regarding circumcision 

	If you would ever take a look at the rarity of the associated
diseases in comparison to childbirth fever

is akin to saying that childbirth
>fever could not be prevented by the washing of the doctor's (or widwife's)
>hands etc. prior to delivering the baby, 

	and then realize how rare this practice was you might be willing
to admit just how foolish the superstitions were and still are.  

until the Microbe Theory was
>accepted by the medical establishment. It also ignores the fact that some
>Jewish religious strictures, such as not eating pork, did have
>preventative health benifits. In the case of the stricture against eating
>pork, it helped prevent trichinosis even though Moses hadn't the slightest
>idea what _Trichinella spiralis_ was or looked like.

	Beyond there having been no Moses and the clean and unclean rules
existing some 700 years (bible counting) prior to his supposed
existance, pro and anti pork traditions track with the type of
food that grows in the area.  There is a book with a chapter
focussing on that aspect of it but I don't remember the name at
the moment.  

	However that has nothing to do with any of the other food taboos
that are followed by primitive peoples or are you holding there
is a medical problem with putting cheese on a hamburger?  

>Similarly, the Jewish religious convention of circumcision had a
>preventive-care health benifit (a reduced incidence of infections) without
>the need for modern medical studies to confirm it.  

	What is most fascinating about claims like this is that much more
advanced and civilized societies including those much more
advanced in rational health care and cleanliness standards,
Japanese and Romans for example, never noticed this connection.  

	Which is not suprising in that they lacked the tools of
statistics and formal procedures for diagnonsis that would
separate one disease from another.  

	It is also of note that if there was such an awareness of disease
human waste would not have been dumped in the streets, Japan
being one of the few cultures that did not do such things.  	

	Sorry, but there is no way to put a better face upon ritual
sexual mutilation.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41386 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the BIG LIE exposed
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:49:46 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41386 soc.culture.jewish:55343

Membari  wrote:

>Who is this Huber freak? This monster has posted God knows how many 
>articles of lies against the Jewish people and he doesn't seem to stop. 
>Dear friends, do any of you know who he is? Is a war criminal or 
>something? Membari would like to look into this matter further.

	A B5 freak should be able to spell better.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41387 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 21:14:57 GMT
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Lines: 22
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>	It has been said that the Talmud encourages lying to non-Jews.
>>This appears to be a perfect example of it.  I would not have
>>believed it were true.  After these three people doing it, there
>>may be some truth in it.

>Tri Tra Trullalala... who again said, that it is not possible to define Jews as a group?

	Perhaps people here convinced me it was possible.  After all,
they did insist that it was possible.

>Who again said, he was no anti-semite?

	Who was it who first said I was an why?

	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:45 PDT 1996
Article: 41388 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 21:19:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Richard J. Green (rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU) wrote:

>: Richard Schultz did indeed refer to CO2 as an acid, and he is not wrong,
>: but I suspect he is being a bit to subtle for Mr. Giwer.  

>Well, since I got the example of CO2 gas as an acid from a freshman
>chemistry textbook (_Chemical Principles, 4th ed._, by Dickerson, Gray,
>Darensbourg, and Darensbourg), you are undoubtedly right in your suspicion
>that I was being too subtle for Prince Myshkin (the guy who tried to
>"prove" that CO2 wasn't an acid by asking for its pH).  On the other hand,
>we could be *really* subtle and point out that the answer to the question
>"Is Z an acid?" is "It depends," no matter what Z is.

	Even our California chemist has agreed it is not an acid.  Now
you come back and claim it is an acid.  One of you two is unaware
that carbon dioxide and carbonic acid are different molecules.  

	Again it appears something encourages a certain unidentifiable
group of people to lie to goyim.  
	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41390 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I only had orders to pour in the gas'
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:14:05 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

> From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr:
>[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].

	Testimony?  In front of which tribunal?  Certainly the book says.
Or does it even say testimony?

>-------------------------------------------------------------------

>Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?

>A: Yes, on orders.

>Q: Where did you do that?

>A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].

>Q: On whose order?

>A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.

>Q: With what gas?

>A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].

	No, it is not.  Too bad this guy hadn't heard the pellet story as
yet.  This would all look a lot better if they had a single story
they wanted to get before they started these "interogations."





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41393 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:19:39 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4ormmv$ndh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) proves once again that he has no
>interest in the truth:

>	Where in the hell have you been in your short life?
>	Circumcision has not the slighest thing to do with being
>	Jewish and never has.

>It is common knowledge even among non-Jews that circumcision is
>central to being Jewish.  Mr. Giwer could hardly be this ignorant.

	That form of sexual mutilation is central to membership in many
tribes not just Jewish tribes.  

>He is just trying to provoke people to satisfy an inner compulsion.
>He knows that insisting on the correctness of something that is
>obviously false is very infuriating, especially when coupled with
>insults directed at the intelligence of those who are absolutely
>correct.  He knows this very well, which is why he always insists on
>defending totally erroneous propositions.

	Are Hutus Jewish?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41394 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:26:45 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
> 
># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning.  "Ignore all
># those bodies lying around.  You are going to get a lovely
># shower."  
> 
>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

	Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.  
 
----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41395 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lions and tiger and bears and screaming and moaning, oh my!
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:40:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Are you claiming that there are no reports of victims trying
>## to break down the doors?

># Post what you have as to these reports.

> From the memoirs of Rudolph Hoess, describing one of the
>first gassings in Krema I:

>"...there were cries of 'gas!', then a great bellowing, and the
>trapped prisoners hurled themselves against both the doors. But
>the doors held."

>Since you claimed no such testimonies existed, we have
>to conclude that you lied again.

	Actually you have found one person among all the rest that have
been posted who has some idea of human nature.  But you are
correct, there is only one report of normal human behavior.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41396 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:25:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4oos7r$b0j@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:


>>         Ah, yes, the female Jew who would reel at being called a Jewess.
>> 

>I assume Mr. Giwer believes he is insulting me.

	Why would you believe that?  


----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41409 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fritz Haber:  Chemist, Nobel Prize Winner, Jew
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:53:36 GMT
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> He also suggests that Dr. Peters received a secret order for Zyklon
>> "_without the irritant_" in 1943 (emphasis by Dr. Perutz), implying a)
>> that before then the Zyklon had it, and b) that the absence of the
>> irritant is significant.  Experts might want to comment on this.

>Yes, Zyklon came with an irritant, a lachrymogen.  It was part of why
>Zyklon was patentable -- without it, the product was just a porous
>substance soaked in hydrocyanic acid (HCN).

	Nonsense.  A novel combination is certainly patentable.  The
irritant was because HCN has a mild smell and a good fraction of
people can not smell it at all in dangerous concentrations.  It
has already been adequately demonstrated that holohuggers have no
conception of what a patent is.  You are only putting another
nail in the coffin.  

>Orders were placed for Zyklon without the irritant.  Several of the
>bills of lading were captured after the war and entered as exhibits at
>the IMT.  It's been reported that memos were also captured indicating
>Degesch's displeasure with having to deliver an irritant-free product,
>because they were concerned over their patent;  

	I was unaware that the callous nature of the Nazis extended to
all Germans.  All this man is worried about is his patent, which
would NOT in any manner be affected by a special customer order,
while not caring that a leaking can could kill or injure anyone
who entered the room where it was stored.

I have that on reliable
>authority but I have not seen those documents myself.  Also, there were
>cans of Zyklon found with the warning label stuck on "Achtung, ohne
>Warnstoff" -- "caution, no warning substance."

	If it as realiable as your patent information you should never
has posted this message.  

>Neither does Pressac, by the way -- it's not mentioned as one of his 39
>"criminal traces."

	I thought he was a pharmacist.  Now he is a forensic chemist?
That puts him in the same category you folks put Leuchter.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:50 PDT 1996
Article: 41412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:11:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># But do not forget that Wiesel and his father chose to
># retreat with the Germans rather than be liberated so you
># have to admit neither was "wrapped too tight."

>A very common "revisionist" trick. Wiesel writes in his book
>that the only reason some of the inmates chose to retreat
>with the SS was that they were afraid that the SS-men would
>kill those who wanted to stay, or mine the camp and blow
>it up after they left.

	They were given the choice were they not?  So in the choice they
were evacuated even though one was unable to work and required
medical resources.  So why was he even being kept alive much less
being given this choice?

>This is a fine example to what kind of lying scum we're
>dealing with here. By quoting only the part about the decision
>to join the SS - and deleting the explanation as to *why*
>this decision was adopted - the "revisionists" are trying
>to create the impression that the inmates were not afraid
>of the SS.

	No one has ever claimed they were not afraid of the SS that I am
aware of.  

	But then those sneaky SS were going to cull the loyal Jews from
the disloyal Jews by giving them this false choice to make.  It
was very clever of them.  

>The problem with such lies is that they are very transparent
>and easy to expose. A little trip to the library was all it
>took. But then, that is the case with every "revisionist" claim,
>I guess.

	Just as easy as the steaming and electrocution and suffocation
claims.  

>I will give Giwer the benefit of doubt that he didn't know
>this, and was just obediently posting material sent to him
>by his fuherers. This time, it may not have been an intentional
>lie on his part. But, with an IQ of 163, one would expect him
>to start questioning the accuracy of the "revisionist" material
>he receives.

	It is so good of you to do that.  I don't know what I would have
done without it.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41421 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:29:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>I wrote:

>	Mr. Giwer believes that Nazism is a form of Marxism!  Yet he has
>	the chutzpah to question my political sophistication.

 	And then you go on to demontrate you have none.  You have
merely swallowed what you have been told or imagine of you have
been told.  

>In article <4p0rus$9hh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	That is what Hitler said.  But what the hell, you statists are
>	all alike.  You can not tell the difference.  But then I have
>	posted this more than once in this NG.  You pretend you have
>	never read it.

>	--Hitler to Rauschning...

>I do not ever pretend to anything.  I leave those kind of shenanigans
>to Mr. Giwer.

>Nor have I read Mr. Giwer's quaint little excerpt from Hitler.  But
>Mr. Giwer demonstrates his naivete if he believes that a maniac like
>Hitler ever told the truth even to himself.  Hitler, like Mr. Giwer
>himself, suffered from a mental condition that made him incapable of
>discerning the truth.

	Excuse me.  Are you saying that Hitler was not guilty by reason
of insanity?  Of course you would not be saying that.  

	But you are being quite transparent here. Unless of course you
are going to say he was lying about everything such as those
three speech excerpts of his you folks are so fond of quoting.
Or is he only lyingn when you read something you do not want to
read?

>The only way to prove that Nazism is a form of Marxism is to tally
>all of the essential industries that the Nazis nationalized.  But
>Mr. Giwer cannot do it, because the Nazis never nationalized a single
>industry during their entire reign of terror.

	Nationalization is not a requirement of Marxism.  You should know
that.  

	And as Hitler points out as long as there is complete control
what does it matter who holds the title?  He says his policies
have made the concept of private property meaningless so why
would he care who holds a piece of paper showing ownership?  

	You see what I mean about your narrow definition or, as you say,
your lack of political sophistication?  He clearly explains that
he has put into practice, at the time quite successfully, what
the theoreticians had never been able to do.  

	In fact his success with this method can be attributed to leaving
people with title and thus he had people who knew how to make
industry run.  Otherwise he would have had to put party
funcionaries in charge as was the downfall of the Russian
implementation of Marxism.  

	Your problem is that if you face total government control of
business is marxist then you will have to face that any
government control of business differs in only degree from
Nazism.  

	Or do you hold that government has some intrinsic right to
control what its citizens do just because they are employers?
Where is it written that people give up intrinsic liberties as a
precondition for employing others or being self employed?





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41423 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's misrepresent to make a story
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:54:19 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p2aov$lu@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Two questions from the Wisenthal Center's 36 questions about the
>>Holocaust.
>>
>>7. What does the term "Final Solution" mean and what is its
>>origin? 
>>
>>     Answer: The term "Final Solution" (Endl"sung) refers to Germany's
>>plan to murder all the Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee
>>Conference (Berlin; January 20,1942) where German officials discussed its
>>implementation. 
>>
>>===
>>
>>	Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is
>>in support of previous "answers" of mass gassings.  But we all
>>know that mass gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee
>>Protocol.

>    And we all know that mass _gassing_ is not mentioned in the Wiesenthal
>Center text above, either.  So it is not clear what point you are trying
>to make here.

	I originally simply made the point that there were about 1.5
million unaccounted for people.  I was simply pointing out how
many others have apparently vanished without a trace.  

>    So please show us where in the Wannsee Protocol a final resolution of
>the differing opinions was reached.  I can find no mention in the document
>as to whether the sterilization that Stuckart PROPOSED was actually
>ADOPTED or not.  With tentative language like "proposed," "possible
>solutions," "should be," "possibilities," "advocates the opinion," all
>they seem to be doing is CONSIDERING it, just as the Wiesenthal Center
>said.  Please show us where the sterilization plan was formally adopted
>and implemented.  Quote the words, whether from the Wannsee Protocol or
>any other source you can find, that show a clear adoption of a
>sterilization plan even vaguely resembling what is discussed in the
>Wannsee Protocol, let alone an implementation of it.  I would be most
>interested to see it.

     "Persons of mixed blood of the first degree who are exempted

>from  evacuation ^b will be^b sterilized in order to prevent any 
offspring and to eliminate the problem of persons of mixed blood 
once and for all.  Such sterilization will be voluntary.  But it 
is required to remain in the Reich.  The sterilized "person of 
mixed blood" is thereafter free of all restrictions to which he 
was previously subjected."

	What does WILL BE mean in holospeak?  Yet we know there were many
such exemptions and there were no sterilizations.  Or at least
those exempted have kept silence about it.  

>>	It is unclear why there would be such clear misrepresentation
>>unless there is a need for it.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 13:02:23 PDT 1996
Article: 21696 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a aryan
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:17:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <31B3860B.59F7@worldnet.att.net> <4p085n$7g5@peru.it.earthlink.net> <4p2ra1$6se@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p3qeo$23i@news.ios.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.california:25756 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21696 alt.politics.white-power:31190

"D. Braun"  wrote:



>On 5 Jun 1996, Chuck wrote:

>> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> >In article <4p085n$7g5@peru.it.earthlink.net>,
>> >Blackman  wrote:
>> >
>> >>Could you please expand on the term Aryan.  Could you share with everyone
>> >>what it means to you?
>> >
>> >Perhaps I can assist....
>> >
>> >	Low self-esteem
>> >	Lack of achievement
>> >	Poor education
>> >	Little ambition
>> >	Refusal to pay own dues
>> >	Tendency to blame others for own lack of
>> >	accomplishment in life -- i.e. serious problem
>> >	accepting responsibility for themselves
>> >
>> >--
>> >The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>> >            [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>> >            [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>> >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>>
>>  That is pure hate Mr.McVay. I would bet you would never say that about
>> Black poeple,Jewish people or any other politically correct group.

>May I ask if this "Nizkor Project" is interested in education about the
>Hollocaust, or revisionism?  BTW, in my book, the only response white
>supremacists need to hear is derision.  Education should be used for
>people who are ignorant, but not avowed haters.

	Without revisionists who would they have to hate?







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 14:02:58 PDT 1996
Article: 41438 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !READ THIS ONE - ITS KINDA FUNNY
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 05:19:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>WELCOME TO THE INTERNET DATING SERVICE

>Name:  Rack Jite
>password: jackwright

>WHO DO YOU WISH TO FIND A LIFE PARTNER FOR?

>Enter: Matt Giwer

>IS THIS PERSON MALE OR FEMALE?

>Enter: Male

>WHAT ARE YOU SUBMITTING AS BIOGRAPHY OF PERSON?

>Enter: Six months of USENET messages

>WHAT ARE YOU SUBMITTING AS PERSONALITY, LIKES, DISLIKES AND POLITICS?

>Enter: Six months of USENET messages

>SIZE AND FORMAT OF SUBMITTED ARCHIVE?

>Enter: Five megs/mime/zip

>WHAT FORMAT IS THE GRAPHIC OF THE PERSON?

>Enter: JPEG/drivers license photo

>SHOULD PHOTO BE USED IN ATTRACTIVE-INDEX FOR PARTNER CHOICE?

>Enter: Yes

>PLEASE TYPE "SUBMIT" WHEN READY.

>Enter:  Submit

>WORKING.... Searching IDS Database... Searching all net engines...
>Wait....

>MATCH FOUND!

>Greetings from IDS, your life partner had been chosen. The computer
>found a perfect match in all respects, in fact no search of these
>engines has ever before found perfect matches in all categories.

>Matt Giwer Life Partner match:

>Contact:

>State: Ohio
>City: Cincinatti
>Org: Reds
>Name: Marjorie Schott

	Beats Daniel Mittleman who said essentially the same thing.    




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 14:02:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41444 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Klein Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:32:37 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4o8itu$jjj@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein 
>>>[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and
>>>Company, 1949.p. 717]
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>When transports arrived at Auschwitz it was the doctor's job to pick
>>>out those who were unfit or unable to work. These included children, 
>>>old people and the sick. I have seen the gas chambers and crematoria 
>>>at Auschwitz, and I knew that those I selected were to go to the gas
>>>chamber. But I only acted on orders given to me by Dr. Wirtz.
>>
>>	This is an old one.  He should have seen them at Birkenau where
>>the gas chambers migrated to a few years ago.

>    The Giwer-troll does not know, or pretends not to know, that Birkenau
>was a subcamp (albeit a very large one) of the Auschwitz complex and is
>sometimes referred to as Auschwitz II.  The two camps together are often
>called Auschwitz-Birkenau, but in colloquial discussion are simply both
>referred to as Auschwitz.  Dishonest trolls who are more interested in
>playing childish word games by seizing on any point of ambiguity and
>pretending there is not another legitimate way to read the text can, of
>course, have a field day with this one.  Wait until he hears about
>Monowitz, sometimes also called Auschwitz III.

>    Or wait until he hears about the stories as to where my grandfather
>come from.  Some people say he came from Lemberg, while others insist that
>the city he came from is Lvov.  I wonder if the 163 IQ type can tell me
>how to resolve these conflicting true truths.

	But you see this is where the IQ comes in handy.  We have several
people here who have sworn, particularly in the "direction
headed" picture exchange, that Birkenau was for those to
exterminated immediately without selection.  So it can not be a
reference to Birkenau but rather has to be a reference to
Auschwitz proper.

>>>I never protested against people being sent to the gas chambers, 
>>>although I never agreed. One cannot protest when in the army.
>>
>>	And another bird colonel who is completely ineffectual

>    You may have noticed he was a medical doctor, and doctors get officer
>rank.  What you did not notice was that Klein was an Obersturmfuhrer,
>while Eichmann was an ObersturmBANNfuhrer.  I would have expected someone
>who can authoritatively criticize my translation of "Gaswagen" to know the
>difference.  Please make up your mind which of these conflicting true
>truths is true: that Obersturmbannfuhrer was the equivalent of bird
>colonel, or Obersturmfuhrer was the equivalent rank.

	The higher the rank the less effective apparently.  

>    You probably would have demoted a wimp like Klein to a mere
>Gruppenfuhrer.  Maybe all the way down to Reichsfuhrer SS.  Almost nothing
>lower than that, right?

>    By the way, who _was_ the head of the Gestapo?

	Who did Eichmann report to?  

>>	BTW:  Don't stop.  Your mindless postings of orthodoxy are a gold
>>mine of information.  I am thinking of creating side by side
>>presentations of the conflicting nonsense parts.

>    If my aim were to discredit any and all challenges to Holocaust dogma,
>I would also tell you not to stop.  Your displays of illiteracy and
>ignorance are astounding.

	I do not intend to until I get bored with this nonsense of the
campaign gets serious.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 14:57:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41448 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Britain offered "peace" by Hitler?
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 03:23:28 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <833734378snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, 
>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

>   "Hitler offered to make peace with Britain in July 1940. 
>   The British told him to shove it."

>Archive/File: imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-09-aggression-08
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/05

>Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume One, Chapter Nine

>[snip]

>Those negotiations, on the last days of August, to which the
>Pope referred as "pending negotiations", were unhappily,
>completely bogus negotiations insofar as Germany was
>concerned. They were put forward simply as an endeavor to
>dissuade England, either by threat or by bribe, from meeting
>her obligations to Poland. The final German "offers" were no
>offers in the accepted sense of the word. There was never
>any intention behind them of entering into discussions,
>negotiation, arbitration, or any other form of peaceful
>settlement with Poland. They were merely an attempt to make
>it easier to seize and conquer Poland than it would likely
>be if England and France were to observe the obligations
>they had undertaken.

	Strangely one more "respected historian" fails to explain why
England and France did not declare war on Russia in response to
these obligations to Poland.  One more example of selective
obligations.  

>                                                  [Page 711]
>                                                            
>(6) Events of the Last Week in August, 1939. This was the
>progress of those last negotiations: On 22 August the German-
>Soviet Pact was signed. On 24 August, orders were given to
>the German armies to march the following morning. After
>those orders had been given, the news apparently reached the
>German Government that the British and Polish Governments
>had signed a formal pact of non-aggression and of mutual
>assistance. Up until that time, the position was that the
>British Prime Minister had made a statement in the House of
>Commons and a joint communique had been issued, on 6 April,
>that the two nations would in fact assist one another if
>either were attacked; but no formal agreement had been
>signed.

>Now, on 24 August, after the orders to march had been given
>by Hitler, the news came that such a formal document had
>been signed. The invasion was thereupon postponed for the
>sole purpose of making one last effort to keep England and
>France out of the war -- not to cancel the war, but solely
>to keep England and France out of it. On 25 August, having
>postponed the invasion, Hitler issued a verbal communique to
>Sir Neville Henderson, the British ambassador in Berlin,
>which was a mixture of bribe and threat, and with which he
>hoped to persuade England to keep out.

>On 28 August, Sir Neville Henderson handed the British
>Government's reply to that communique to Hitler. That reply
>stressed that the differences ought to be settled by
>agreement. The British Government put forward the view that
>Danzig should be guaranteed, and that any agreement reached
>should be guaranteed by other powers. Whether or not these
>proposals would have been acceptable or unacceptable to
>Germany are of no great matter. For once it had been made
>clearas it was in the British Government's reply of 28
>Augustthat England would not be put off assisting Poland in
>the event of German aggression, the German Government had no
>concern with further negotiation but was concerned only to
>afford itself some kind of justification and to prevent
>itself from appearing too blatantly to turn down all the
>appeals to reason that were being put forward.

>On 29 August, at 7:15 p. m. in the evening, Hitler handed to
>Sir Neville Henderson the German Government's answer to the
>British Government's reply of the 28th. It seems quite clear
>that the whole object of this letter was to put forward
>something which was quite unacceptable. Hitler agreed to
>enter into direct conversatiOns as suggested by the British
>Government, but he demanded that those conversations must be
>based upon the return to the Reich, of Danzig and also of
>the whole of the Corridor.

>                                                  [Page 712]

	Note here it is return to the Reich.  
                                                            
>It will be recalled that hitherto, even when he had alleged
>that Poland had renounced the 1934 agreement, Hitler had put
>forward as his demands the return of Danzig alone, plus the
>arrangement for an extra-territorial Autobahn and railroad
>running through the Corridor to East Prussia. That demand
>was unacceptable at that time. To make quite certain of
>refusal, Hitler now demanded the whole of the Corridor.
>There was no question of an Autobahn or railway. The whole
>territory must become German.

	And here it is "become German" which it had been for centuries
prior to WW I.  

>Even so, to make doubly certain that the offer would not be
>accepted, Hitler stated: "On those terms I am prepared to
>enter into discussion, but to do so, as the matter is
>urgent, I expect a plenipotentiary with full powers from the
>Polish Government to be here in Berlin by midnight tomorrow
>night, the 30th of August."

>This offer was made at 7:15 p. m. on the evening of the
>29th. That offer had to be transmitted, first, to London;
>and from London to Warsaw; and from Warsaw the Polish
>Government had to give authority to their Ambassador in
>Berlin. So that the timing made it quite impossible, if
>indeed it were possible, to get authority to the Polish
>Ambassador in Berlin by midnight the following night. It
>allowed Poland no opportunity for discussing the matters at
>all. As Sir Neville Henderson described it, the offer
>amounted to an ultimatum.

	What impossible?  Never heard of telephone?  Radio?  

>At midnight on 30 August, at the time by which the Polish
>Plenipotentiary was expected to arrive, Sir Neville
>Henderson handed a further message to Ribbentrop in reply to
>the message that had been handed to him the previous
>evening. Ribbentrop read out in German a two- or three-page
>document which purported to be the German proposal to be
>discussed at the discussions between them and the Polish
>Government. He read it out quickly in German. He refused to
>hand a copy of it to the British Ambassador. He passed no
>copy of it at all to the Polish Ambassador. So that there
>was no kind of possible chance of the Poles ever having
>before them the proposals which Germany was so graciously
>and magnanimously offering to discuss.

>On the following day, 31 August, Mr. Lipski, the Polish
>Ambassador, saw Ribbentrop, and could get no further than to
>be asked whether he came with full powers. When he replied
>that he did not, Ribbentrop said that he would put the
>position before the Fuehrer. But, in actual fact, it was
>much too late to put any position to the Fuehrer by that
>time, because on 31 August Hitler had already issued his
>Directive No. 1 for the conduct of war, in which he laid
>down H-Hour as being a quarter to five the fol-

>                                                  [Page 713]
>                                                            
>lowing morning, 1 September. And on the evening of 31
>August, at 9 o'clock, the German radio broadcast the
>proposals which Ribbentrop had read out to Sir Neville
>Henderson the night before, saying that these were the
>proposals which had been made for discussion, but that as no
>Polish Plenipotentiary had arrived to discuss them, the
>German Government assumed that they were turned down. That
>broadcast at 9 o'clock on the evening of 31 August was the
>first that the Poles had ever heard of the proposal, and it
>was the first that the British Government or its
>representatives in Berlin knew about them, other than what
>had been heard when Ribbentrop had read them out and refused
>to give a written copy on the evening of the 30th.

>After that broadcast, at 9:15 -- perhaps while the broadcast was
>still in its course -- a copy of those proposals was handed to
>Sir Neville Henderson for the first time.

>This summary of events during that last week of August 1939
>is based upon the contents of several documents which will now
>be alluded to.

>[snip]

>Hitler's verbal communique, as it is called in the British
>Blue Book, which he handed to Sir Neville Henderson on 25
>August, after he had heard of the signing of the Anglo-
>Polish agreement, in an endeavor to keep England from aiding
>Poland, commences by stating Hitler's desire to make one
>more effort to prevent war. In the second paragraph he
>asserts again that Poland's provocations were unbearable:

>     "Germany was in all circumstances determined to abolish
>     these Macedonian conditions on her eastern frontier
>     and, what is more, to do so in the interests of quiet
>     and order, but also in the interests of European peace.
>     
>     "The problem of Danzig and the Corridor must be solved.
>     The British Prime Minister had made a speech which was
>     not in the least calculated to induce any change in the
>     German attitude. At the most, the result of this speech
>     could be a bloody and incalculable war between Germany
>     and England. Such a war would be bloodier than that of
>     1914
>     
>                                                  [Page 715]
>                                                            
>     to 1918. In contrast to the last war, Germany would no
>     longer have to fight on two fronts. Agreement with
>     Russia was unconditional and signified a change in
>     foreign policy of the Reich which would last a very
>     long time. Russia and Germany would never again take up
>     arms against each other. Apart from this, the
>     agreements reached with Russia would also render
>     Germany secure economically for the longest period of
>     war." (TC-72 No. 68)

	Little did he realize that England would not declare war on
Russia for an identical action.  

>Then comes the bribe.

	There is no bribe in anything that follows.

>     "The Fuehrer declared the German-Polish problem must be
>     solved and will be solved. 

	I note that your historian does not describe that problem in any
manner.  Read carefully.  "German-Polish" refers to Polish
citizens of German descent as in Italian-American.  What was that
problem?  

He is however prepared and
>     determined after the solution of this problem to
>     approach England once more with a large, comprehensive
>     offer. He is a man of great decisions, and in this case
>     also he will be capable of being great in his action.
>     And then magnanimously he accepts the British Empire
>     and is ready to pledge himself personally for its
>     continued existence and to place the power of the
>     German Reich at its disposal on condition that his
>     colonial demands, which are limited, should be
>     negotiated by peaceful means. ***" (TC- 72 No. 68)

>Again Hitler stressed irrevocable determination never to
>enter into war with Russia. He concluded as follows:

>     "If the British Government would consider these ideas a
>     blessing for Germany and also for the British empire, a
>     peace might result. If it rejects these ideas there
>     will be war. In no case will Great Britain emerge
>     stronger; the last war proved it. The Fuehrer repeats
>     that he himself is a man of ad infinitum decisions by
>     which he is bound, and that this is his last offer."
>     (TC-72 No. 68)

	He says nothing about Russia here.  

>The British Government was not of course aware of the real
>object that lay behind that message, and, taking it at its
>face value, wrote back on 28 August saying that they were
>prepared to enter into discussions. They agreed with Hitler
>that the differences must be settled, as follows:

>     "In the opinion of His Majesty's Government a
>     reasonable solution of the differences between Germany
>     and Poland could and should be effected by agreement
>     between the two countries on lines which would include
>     the safeguarding of Poland's essential interests, and
>     they recall that in his speech of the 28th of April the
>     German Chancellor recognized the importance of these
>     interests to Poland.
>     
>     "But as was stated by the Prime Minister in his letter
>     to the German Chancellor of the 22nd of August, His
>     Majesty's Government consider it essential for the
>     success of the discussions which would precede the
>     agreement that it should be
>     
>                                                  [Page 716]
>                                                            
>     understood beforehand that any settlement arrived at
>     would be guaranteed by other powers. His Majesty's
>     Government would be ready if desired to make their
>     contribution to the effective operation of such a
>     guarantee."
>     
>                          "*******
>     
>     "His Majesty's Government have said enough to make
>     their own attitude plain in the particular matters at
>     issue between Germany and Poland. They trust that the
>     German Chancellor will not think that, because His
>     Majesty's Government are scrupulous concerning their
>     obligations to Poland, they are not anxious to use all
>     their influence to assist the achievement of a solution
>     which may command itself both to Germany and to
>     Poland." (TC-72 No. 74)

>That reply knocked the German hopes on the head. The Nazis
>had failed despite their tricks and their bribes to dissuade
>England from observing her obligations to Poland, and it was
>now only a matter of getting out of their embarrassment as
>quickly as possible and saving face as much as possible.

	There were no tricks and there were no bribes.  This is nothing
more than a formal diplomatic exchange.  What it does not address
is the clear supposition by Germany that in the partitioning of
Poland with Russia, England would be put in the bind of only
being able to honor its "obligations to Poland" by declaring war
upon both or neither.  

	England however was able to control the propaganda in the English
speaking world including the US and able to get away with this
double think in the court of public opinion.  

	Some day, probably long after we are all dead, the agreement
between England and Russia will be made public showing they were
partners in setting up Germany; that it was a classic diplomatic
doublecross.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 14:57:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brit rabbi admits 6,000,000 is fraud
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:48:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:76404 alt.revisionism:41458

Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>More Giwer trash. Out it goes. 

>Welcome to the "other" Chuck. 

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> Chuck  wrote:
>> 
>> >Nothing in Ernists or Ingrids writings disagree with the horror of ww II.
>> >No hate what so ever. They are combating anti German bigotry and
>> >Talmudist supremicy.

>Spell-checker needed here. Matt, other than that, your logic is faulty 
>as per normal

>Trash material, no disrespect for anyone just trash!..Chuck Ferree

	Once more, you senile old fart, you have addressed me for
something I did not write AND right from the message.  I can now
see why Ike got all the credit that should have been yours.  You
claimed to have liberated a Japanese POW camp.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 16:46:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41461 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:45:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> 
>>># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning.  "Ignore all
>>># those bodies lying around.  You are going to get a lovely
>>># shower."  
>>> 
>>>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>>>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

>>	Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.  

>Huh?

	Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
than they could be cremated?  The stories have all three
buildings in use in the process.  The aerial photos show open
land with not place to hide bodies.  

	So what have you missed?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 16:46:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:38:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>  >>
>>  >>>>  Simon Wiesenthal Center
>>  >>>>       Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4%			
>1,100,000
>>  >>>36.40%
>>  >>>>  3,021,978
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>>>  Wannsee Protocol
>>  >>>>  USSR                                  5,000,000		5,000,000
>>  >>>>    Ukraine            		   2,994,684
>>  >>>>    White Russia
>>  >>>>    excluding Bialystok                   446,484			0
>>  >>>>  
>>  >>>>  
>>  >>>>                      Total    over    11,000,000			
>>  >>>11,291,300

>>  >>>This difference clearly explains your "discrepancy" (not to mention the 
>>  >>>700,000 Jew listed in "unoccupied France."  Thank you for posting the 
>>  >>>evidence that, once more, you were incorrect.

>  
>>  	Correct.  One says Soviet Union, the other says USSR, different
>>  terms for the same thing.  There are no limitations on either
>>  term.  

>	The word is "context" Matty-poo.   You use it.  You claim to knmow 
>what it means.  Give us a demonstration of that.  The Wannsee Minutes are, in 
>the context in which they are written, listing *all* of the Jews in Europe.  The 
>SWC listing clearly is a listing of those under the control of the nazis.  

	There is no such statement or limitation or context in the SWC
statement.  If you find what you are talking about, post it.  

They are 
>talking about different numbers and, with your usual lack of intergrity are willfully 
>attempting to deceive others by pretending otherwise.  It's too bad you haven't 
>the technical training or ability to understand the science of biostatistics.  

	We are talking demographics here.  But then I would not expect a
holohugger to know that.  

You 
>are making the kind of basic mistake one would expect from a college freshman.

	When you find the qualifier you claim exists, post it.  Otherwise
please stop making things up which do not exist in the SWC
answer.  

	The least you could do would be to contact them for their answer
instead of inventing any old story just to pretend to know what
you are talking about.  

	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 16:46:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41470 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!news.belnet.be!swsbe6.switch.ch!swidir.switch.ch!in2p3.fr!oleane!jussieu.fr!esiee.fr!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the BIG LIE exposed
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 02:48:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41470 soc.culture.jewish:55410

Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> Membari  wrote:
>> 
>> >Who is this Huber freak? This monster has posted God knows how many
>> >articles of lies against the Jewish people and he doesn't seem to stop.
>> >Dear friends, do any of you know who he is? Is a war criminal or
>> >something? Membari would like to look into this matter further.
>> 
>>         A B5 freak should be able to spell better.

>Someone who claims to have a BS should show some correct knowledge
>about science.

	I do.  It is you who are being deceived by your fellow
holohuggers.  Witness the latest thing you believe is true, that
CO2 is an acid and that CO2 and carbonic acid have identical
molecular structure.  

	But then you do not know enough to judge for yourself so you may
be dismissed from the discussion.  

>BTW, Mr Giwer, how is it that *you* know the correct spelling
>of "Minbari"?  I thought science fiction was beneath you?

	What ever gave you that idea?  I am quite familiar with the
suspension of disbelief.  It is very like the alternate universe
of SS physical law where the holocaust is physically possible.
You appear to be quite a fan of it yourself.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 16:53:16 PDT 1996
Article: 21724 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a aryan
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:17:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4p4f19$kg5@motss.newpaltz.edu>, 
>carrol52@matrix.newpaltz.edu (kevin s. carroll) wrote:

>>	If you consider yourself Aryan, then please speak for yourself.  If
>>you are describing what you think Aryans are, then stop showing your
>>ignorance. 

>Quoth the Giwer:

>      "Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish 
>      reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus 
>      implying that we is observant?"

>I rest my case.

	You appear to be saying Jews have no reputation for integrity.
It that your considered opinion?  Or are you saying that atheist
Jews feel bound the traditions of the Hebrew religion?  Or are we
back to goyim don't have the faith to believe the dogma routine?


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 19:03:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41472 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:35:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:


>>	Though the names are different it is only in the grouping.

>    Wrong.  There is a time frame difference as well.  Note that contrary
>to the Giwer-troll's throwaway line that the SWC percentages allowed one
>to compute the "presumably" post-war populations,the SWC percentages are
>based on _prewar_ populations, for which (unfortunately) they do not give
>the year they were using as a baseline.  For Germany and Austria in
>particular this is critical, as there was some "voluntary"  emigration
>before the war.  The Wannsee figures were developed _during_ the war.  The
>discrepancy between the Wannsee figures and the SWC prewar figures would
>include any leakage to areas not covered by the Wannsee document - e.g.,
>the US or North Africa.  But without looking at migration figures from the
>prewar period I would agree that this is very unlikely to be as much as
>1.4 million.

	Very good.  So Jews were increasing their population by much more
than 14% per four years as they were also making up for the
emigrations.  

	But you appear to have it backwards.  The SWC numbers are LOWER
than the Wannsee numbers.  So we actually are in need of
immigration figurers to explain this great population increase in
so short a period of time.  

	What you should realize is that if the SWC numbers are correct
then we have 1.4 million that are removed from the "unregistered,
gassed immediately" category taking the 5.2M down to 3.8M Jews
which is less than the registered and death recorded category.  

	In other words we have a problem of finding all of the registered
dead Jews.  

	You really should contact the SWC and get an answer before you
continue.  

>    The biggest discrepancy I see is for the Soviet Union.  Due to the
>closed nature of the Soviet regime, its official atheist stance, and the
>soft squishy roundness of that 5,000,000 figure, I would imagine that
>population statistics are softest for that country and a good part of the
>1.4 million difference (and perhaps nearly all) is that the Nazis and the
>SWC simply had different population sources which did not agree.

	But as you know EITHER religion or birth counts for Jews so
atheist is meaningless.  

	And as you have read the "true" SWC number for the SU is LOWER
than the Wannsee number.  So we are still presented with the same
problem.  You would have the SU number higher because of atheism
while SWC puts them much lower.

>    So we compare the numbers.  Whee.  So there is a disagreement, by ca. 
>1.4 million, as to how many Jews were in Europe "prewar" (whatever year it
>is that the SWC is figuring from) and what the Nazis thought were in
>Europe in whatever also-unstated baseline year they were figuring from in
>areas where they had not already made their own accounts and population
>"adjustments."  (Note that Estonia is listed as free of Jews in the
>Wannsee document.)  Very good. Now, what is this supposed to prove except
>that the population figures were estimates, something I already knew? 

	The only problem is that your argument is completely revisionist
in that you are making corrections in the wrong direction.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 19:03:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41474 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dees loses this battle
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:41:36 GMT
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Wed, 29 May 1996 07:25:09 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!At the moment we are still in the control of the second
>!generation with enough first generation types still around to
>!have "saved the world for democracy" to make serious changes
>!difficult.  Consider at this point it is not a problem to
>!demonstrate (save to those who "know" it was all about slavery)
>!that the US war between the states was either caused by some
>!hotheads in Charleston, South Carolina or President Lincoln.  But
>!try to tell the German side of WW II these days.

>Yeah, racist slave owning wasnt so bad... Hey Giwer...
>Revise all things pointing to the intolerance, bigotry and racism
>endemic to the Right...

>THE ISSUE THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER, WAS THE ECONOMIC, MORAL AND
>STATES RIGHT REGARDING SLAVERY. PERIOD.
>Perhaps in YOUR circles the issue was not one of slavery, but your
>circle of admirers, all seem to be anti-Semites, bigots, racists,
>neo-Nazis and one WHACKED OUT JEW! :)

	You should sue the public school system that educated you for
failure to perform.  You learned nothing of interest about the
civil war.  Or perhaps they watered it down to black and white
for the feebleminded such as yourself.







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 19:03:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41479 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:50:12 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>  
>>  >Who again said, he was no anti-semite?
>>  
>>  	Who was it who first said I was an why?

>	1.  A person of obvious perception and honesty.

>	2.  Because you are.

	The evidence I am about to give shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth so help me hyphenated god.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 19:03:09 PDT 1996
Article: 41488 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Consequences
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:12:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Thu, 30 May 1996 01:46:30 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Rather they are people with a mission, to promote a particular
>!brand of holocaust orthodoxy.  

>And *your* mission? A Right-wing anti-Semite, 

	You could make an antisemite out of a Rebbe.  

all around bigot and
>gunloon from Hell revising the Holocaust and attacking Jews to defend
>your like minded politics with the Nazis by inferring they were just a
>benign entity doing their thing. Turned out swell hey?
>And thats your whole ball a wax Giwer...
>The Nazis didnt gas anyone, they werent so bad... 

>I guess its just up to each individual to decide which side has the most
>credibility. 

	I would rather have a real Jew at my back than anyone else but a
SEAL and possibly a US Marine.  

	What I do not like in the least are the wimpy, apologetic, poor
us trying to dignify their self pitying wallowing in the
holocaust as some kind of noble cause of saving the world from
another Hitler.  

	I have less interest in you for trying to make personal use of
the wallowers to support your mindless paranoia.  You are trying
to be the most suffering of the suffering.  You are a very sick
little animal.
 




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 19:03:10 PDT 1996
Article: 41489 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:23:54 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>Cheez, I'm getting pooped, but this has to be done by someone. Trash, 
>more trash from Giwer. No sense at all, just tail chasing! Out with 
>it.

>Chuck Ferree

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> ># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >
>> >## So, if someone is convicted of crime A and crime B, does
>> >## this mean that crimes A and B necessarily took place at
>> >## the same location?

	It is good to see a senile old fart quoting Keren and calling it
trash.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 07:12:14 PDT 1996
Article: 41507 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:55:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4om9fu$a8e@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>	If you want more on semantics itself, look for the works of S.I.
>>	Hiyakawa, perhaps the best introductory works around.  Later you
>>	can try Science and Sanity by Alfred Korzybski if you are up to
>>	it.  


>      "Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish 
>      reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus 
>      implying that we is observant?"

	Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 07:12:15 PDT 1996
Article: 41509 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:47:17 GMT
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4p22h8$ce2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>> 
>>>    Um, Matt.  This is rather transparent of you.  Yale produces a clearly
>>>    logical argument to show your whole thesis was flawed.  The two "adult"
>>>    repsonses to this are [1] admit you were mistaken, or [2] provide some
>>>    documentation to back up your point of view.  I see, however, you chose
>>>    the "juvenile" response of simply insulting him for no constructive
>>>    reason.
>> 
>>>    Pretty pitiful.
>> 
>>	Save you are loathe to review anything a fellow holohugger says
>>and will never criticize them.  

>    Actually, you might recall that I incurred Gord McFee's wrath last week
>    for criticizing Harry Mazal's comments about your drinking problems and
>    business failures.

	You name two certified idiots?  Tell me you criticized Dave
Dahlman and Chuckles Ferree and I will be equally impressed.  

>    So, we can conclude your statement above is a gross error (if not an
>    intentional misrepresentation.)

	Rather you are fully aware of the intentional deception by two
chemists and you have remained silent.  You can not claim to be
both reading and believing their games.  

	Rather you comment only upon those who are clearly damaging your
cause rather than those who are getting away with their
deceptions.  

>>	Though the names are different it is only in the grouping.  As
>>always the objective was to deal with Jews in Europe exclusive of
>>Spain.  That why you never hear of anyone from North Africa being
>>shipped off to any place else.  

>    If this is what you assert, go ahead and present the numbers in a
>    format which demonstrates your point.  Short of that, given your
>    continual errors and prevarification, I will choose to accept Yale
>    Edeiken's analysis.

	I already have posted that.  Do you need it again?  I guess so.

	But in return post YE's analysis if you can find it.  What is
posted below is the ENTIRE Q&A without deletion.  

	Switch to a fixed pitch font.  the first numbers are DIRECT from
SWC.  The next three columns are simply those moved into their
own columns in a spread sheet.  

Simon Wiesenthal Center

5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what
percentage of the pre-war
Jewish population did they constitute?

     Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
     Austria 50,000 -- 27.0%			50,000	27.00%	185,185
     Italy 7,680 -- 17.3%			7,680	17.30%	44,393
     Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0%			28,900	44.00%	65,682
     Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1%			71,500	78.10%	91,549
     Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1%			78,150	66.10%
118,230
     Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1%			143,000	85.10%	168,038
     Bulgaria 0 -- 0.0%			0		
     Luxembourg 1,950 -- 55.7%			1,950	55.70%	3,501
     Denmark 60 -- 0.7%			60	0.70%	8,571
     Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4%			100,000	71.40%	140,056
     Estonia 2,000 -- 44.4%			2,000	44.40%	4,505
     Norway 762 -- 44.8%			762	44.80%	1,701
     Finland 7 -- 0.3%			7	0.30%	2,333
     Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9%			3,000,000	90.90%	3,300,330
     France 77,320 -- 22.1%			77,320	22.10%	349,864
     Romania 287,000 -- 47.1%			287,000	57.10%	502,627
     Germany 141,500 -- 25.0%			141,500	25.00%	566,000
     Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8%			71,000	78.90%	89,987
     Greece 67,000 -- 86.6%			67,000	86.60%	77,367
     Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4%			1,100,000	36.40%
3,021,978
     Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0%			569,000	69.00%	824,638
     Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2%			63,300	81.20%	77,956

			5,860,129	49.19%	9,644,491


	Wannsee Protocol

A.   Germany proper                          131,800			131,800
     Austria                                  43,700			43,700
     Eastern territories                     420,000			420,000
     General Government                    2,284,000			2,284,000
     Bialystok                               400,000			400,000
     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200			74,200
     Estonia         - free of Jews -
     Latvia                                    3,500			3,500
     Lithuania                                34,000			34,000
     Belgium                                  43,000			43,000
     Denmark                                   5,600			5,600
     France /  occupied territory            165,000			165,000
               unoccupied territory          700,000			700,000
     Greece                                   69,600			68,600
     Netherlands                             160,800			160,800
     Norway                                    1,300			1,300

B.   Bulgaria                                 48,000			48,000
     England                                 330,000			330,000
     Finland                                   2,300			2,300
     Ireland                                   4,000			4,000
     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000			58,000
     Albania                                     200			200
     Croatia                                  40,000			40,000
     Portugal                                  3,000			3,000
     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000			342,000
     Sweden                                    8,000			8,000
     Switzerland                              18,000			18,000
     Serbia                                   10,000			10,000
     Slovakia                                 88,000			88,000
     Spain                                     6,000			6,000
     Turkey (European portion)                55,500			55,500
     Hungary                                 742,800			742,800
     USSR                                  5,000,000			5,000,000
          Ukraine            		   2,994,684			0
          White Russia
          excluding Bialystok                446,484			0


                         Total    over    11,000,000			11,291,300

	Good enough?  

>    I see no reason to accept your assertions if you don't do the work to
>    back them up.   And you never seem to do such work when you are
>    backpedeling from your errors.

	Should I post the equation form of the spreadsheet?  Or would you
prefere the WB1 in UUE form?  

	Is there anything else I can do for you?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 07:12:16 PDT 1996
Article: 41519 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:58:36 GMT
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>> Chuck 
>> wrote from an obviously forged email address:
>> 
>> >The Jewish congress declairing war on Germany in 1933 did not help 
>> >matters.
>> 
>> Do tell us, Sir/Madam, all about this "declaration of war." I
>> have a photocopy of an interesting newspaper from 1933 here,
>> so try to be precise, won't you?

>Not to spoil your fun, Mr. McVay, but in the interest of educating
>the reader I might suggest he or she stop by:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar11.html

>However, I _would_ be interested to hear about this supposed "Jewish
>congress" that "Chuck" is talking about.  Does he perhaps mean the
>World Jewish Congress?  Because they had nothing to do with the
>newspaper article.  If you're reading this, "Chuck," do please tell
>us all about this "Jewish congress."

>For everyone else reading, here were the first paragraphs in that
>article to which "Chuck" refers:

>   A strange and unfortunate sequel has emerged from the stories of
>   German Jew-baiting.
>   
>   The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare an
>   economic and financial war on Germany.
>   
>   Hirtherto the cry has gone up: "Germany is persecuting the Jews." If
>   the present plans are carried out, the Hitlerite cry will be: "The
>   Jews are persecuting Germany."

>Ironic, isn't it, that the same "Hitlerite cry" is heard on Usenet,
>over sixty years after the fact?

	It is even more ironic that it supports so many of the claims of
the wide ranging influence of Jews in the economic community of
the time that are either denied or downplayed or call neo-nazi
today.  

	And of course one notices that this is at the worst part of the
Depression.  And of course there is no mention of a one day
German boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany as a response.
That had not happened yet.

	BUT the SWC mentions ONLY the Germany boycott as though it was
out of no where and does not mention that it was only a one day
boycott.  The story does have to be slanted to instill the
"correct" view of the holocaust.  


Daily Express. London, March 24, 1933, pp. 1-2.


  J U D E A   D E C L A R E S   W A R   O N   G E R M A N Y 


  [A composite photo with Hitler before a presumably Jewish
court] 


  JEWS OF ALL THE WORLD UNITE 

  BOYCOTT OF GERMAN GOODS

  MASS DEMONSTRATIONS 


  "Daily Express" Special Political Correspondent. 

  A strange and unforeseen sequel has emerged from the stories of

  German Jew-baiting.

  The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare
  an economic and financial war on Germany.

  Hitherto the cry has gone up: "Germany is persecuting the
Jews."
  If the present plans are carried out, the Hitlerite cry will
be: 
  "The Jews are persecuting Germany." 

    All Israel is rising in wrath against the Nazi onslaught on 
    the Jews. Adolf Hitler, swept into power by an appeal of 
    elemental patriotism, is making history of a kind he least 
    expected. Thinking to unite only the German nation to race 
    consciousness, he has roused the whole Jewish people to 
    national renascence.

	[This is quite an interesting contemporary assessment without the
benefit of war propaganda.]  

  The appearance of the Swastika symbol of a new Germany has 
  called forth the Lion of Judah, the old battle symbol of 
  Jewish defiance. 

  Fourteen million Jews, dispersed throughout the world, have 
  banded together as one man to declare war on the German 
  persecutors of their co-religionists. Sectional differences 
  and antagonisms 

  [strip-shaped drawing with alternating swastikas and lions] 

  have been submerged in one common aim - to stand by the 
  600,000 Jews of Germany who are terrorised by Hitlerite 
  anti-Semitism and to compel Fascist Germany to end its 
  campaign of violence and suppression directed against its 
  Jewish minority. 

	[As opposed to journalism today there is no rehash of events in
Germany that they are responding to.]  

--------------------------------------------------------------------
  P l a n s   F o r   A c t i o n   M a t u r i n g 

                      I n   E u r o p e   A n d   A m e r i c a
--------------------------------------------------------------------

  World Jewry has made up its mind not to rest quiescent in 
  face of this revival of medieval Jew-baiting. 

	[Unless of course this is the sum and substance of it.]  

  Germany may be called on to pay a heavy price for Hitler's 
  antagonism to the Jews. She is faced with an international 
  boycott in commerce, finance, and industry. 

	[Simple antagonism?]  

  The Jewish merchant prince is leaving his counting-house, 
  the banker his board-room, the shopkeeper his store, and 
  the pedlar his humble barrow, to join together in what has 
  become a holy war to combat the Hitlerite enemies of the Jew. 

  Plans for concerted Jewish action are being matured in Europe 
  and America to strike back in reprisal at Hitlerite Germany. 

  In London, New York, Paris, and Warsaw Jewish merchants are 
  waiting for a commercial crusade. 

  Resolutions are being taken throughout the Jewish business 

	[Apparently a rather powerful group, at least according to this
article.]  
  
--------------------------------------------------------------------
  B R I T I S H   J E W S   P R O T E S T   
        A T   N A Z I   T A C T I C S 

  MERCHANTS AND FINANCIERS RALLY TO MOVEMENT 

  GERMAN LINERS AFFECTED? 
--------------------------------------------------------------------

  world to sever trade relations with Germany. 

  Large numbers of merchants in London have resolved to stop 
  buying German goods, even at the cost of suffering heavy loss. 

  A meeting of the Jewish textile trade in London has been called

  for Monday to consider the situation and to determine what
steps 
  should be taken. 

  Germany is a heavy borrower in foreign money markets, where 
  Jewish influence is considerable. Continued anti-Semitism in 
  Germany is likely to react seriously against her. A move is on 
  foot on the part of Jewish financiers to exert pressure to
force 
  anti-Jewish action to stop. 

	[Gee, Jewish bankers.  Didn't think there were any of those.  Or
that only Nazis believed in their existence.]

  The Organisation of Jewish Youth in Britain are organizing 
  demonstrations in London and the provinces during the weekend. 

  The Board of Deputies of British Jews, representing the entire 
  Jewish community of Great Britain, are meeting in special 
  session on Sunday to discuss the German situation, and to
decide 
  on what action should be taken to counteract the attacks on 
  their German fellow-Jews. 

  World-wide preparations are being made to organise
demonstrations 
  of protest. 


  EMBARGO IN POLAND 

  A concerted boycott by Jewish buyers is likely to involve grave

  damage to the German export trade. Jewish merchants all over
the 
  world are large buyers of German manufactured goods, chiefly 
  cotton goods, silks, toys, electrical fittings, and furniture. 

	["grave damage" is the term used.  But we are always assured that
Jews were economically powerless and that all claims to the
contrary were no more than Nazi propaganda.]

  In Poland, the trade embargo on Germany is already in
operation. 
  In France, a proposed ban on German imports is being widely 
  canvassed in Jewish circles. 

  German Transatlantic shipping traffic is likewise threatened. 
  The Bremen and the Europa, the German crack liners, may suffer 
  heavily from a Jewish anti-German boycott. Jewish trans-ocean 
  travellers form an important part of the patrons of these
liners 
  because of their extensive part in international trade. The
loss 
  of their patronage would be a heavy blow to Germany's Atlantic 
  trade. 

	[And it goes on and on.]  

  In New York yesterday 10,000 Jewish ex-soldiers marched to the 
  City Hall to hold a protest demonstration. 

  Large crowds watched the men, some of whom wore old British 
  uniforms, petition the mayor to support them in a boycott of 
  German goods. 

  Another petition was handed in at the British Consulate-General

  requesting that Palestine should receive refugees from Germany 
  without restriction. 

  Members of the American House of Representatives are
introducing 
  resolutions protesting against the anti-Jewish excesses in 
  Germany. The American trade unions, representing 3,000,000 
  workers, have also decided to join in the protest. 

  A rabbinical decree in New York has made the next Monday a day 
  of fasting and prayer over the Hitler campaign. 

  Fasting will begin on Sunday at sunset and finish at sunset on 
  Monday. 

  All Jewish shops in New York will be closed on Monday during a 
  parade. 

  Apart from a monster meeting in Madison-square Garden, meetings

  are to be held in 300 American cities. 

  Madison-square Garden will see the remarkable sight of Bishop
  Manning speaking from a Jewish platform appealing for an end of

  the Hitler "terror." 


  DAY OF SERMONS 

  It had been arranged to charge a shilling admission and 5 s. 
  for box seats, but a public-spirited Jew, Frank Cohen, an 
  insurance broker, gove [sic] a personal cheque for L 1,000 to 
  cover all expenses, so admission will be free. 

  Every rabbi in the city of New York has been placed under a 
  sacred obligation by rabbinical decree to devote Saturday's 
  sermon to the plight of Jews in Germany. 

  Representative Jewish organisations in the European capitals 
  are understood to be making representations to their various 
  Governments to use influence with the Hitler Cabinet to induce 
  it to call a halt in the oppression of the German Jews. 

  The old and reunited people of Israel are rising with new 
  and modern weapons to fight their age-old battle with their 
  persecutors. 

=====

>From  the SWC Q&A  

11. What were the first measures taken by the Nazis against the
Jews? 

     Answer: The first measures against the Jews included: 

     April 1, 1933: A boycott of Jewish shops and businesses by
the Nazis. 

     April 7, 1933: The law for the Re-establishment of the Civil
Service expelled all non-Aryans
     (defined on April 11, 1933 as anyone with a Jewish parent or
grandparent) from the civil
     service. Initially, exceptions were made for those working
since August 1914; German
     veterans of World War I; and, those who had lost a father or
son fighting for Germany or her
     allies in World War I. 

	[It is rarely mentioned that being a member of the NSDAP was a
requirement for members of the civil service.  And of course
members were required to pay a fraction of their income as party
dues; this being a major source of party income.]  

	[This distinction was not lost at Nuremberg where it was declared
to crime to exclude Jews from NSDAP membership.  Of course the
NSDAP was declared a criminal organization also.  It is unclear
how it can be a crime to bar people from membership is a criminal
organization.]

     April 7, 1933: The law regarding admission to the legal
profession prohibited the admission
     of lawyers of non-Aryan descent to the Bar. It also denied
non-Aryan members of the Bar
     the right to practice law. (Exceptions were made in the
cases noted above in the law
     regarding the civil service.) Similar laws were passed
regarding Jewish law assessors,
     jurors, and commercial judges. 

     April 22, 1933: The decree regarding physicians' services
with the national health plan
     denied reimbursement of expenses to those patients who
consulted non-Aryan doctors.
     Jewish doctors who were war veterans or had suffered from
the war were excluded. 

	[It is rarely noted that these war veteran exceptions support the
position that Jews were considered a security threat to Germany
and that the veteran status was considered evidence of loyalty.
This also supports the internment of Jews just as
Japanese-Americans were interned in the US.]  

     April 25, 1933: The law against the overcrowding of German
schools restricted Jewish
     enrollment in German high schools to 1.5% of the student
body. In communities where they
     constituted more than 5% of the population, Jews were
allowed to constitute up to 5% of the
     student body. Initially, exceptions were made in the case of
children of Jewish war veterans,
     who were not considered part of the quota. In the framework
of this law, a Jewish student
     was a child with two non-Aryan parents. 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 07:12:16 PDT 1996
Article: 41568 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:00:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning.  "Ignore all
>>>>># those bodies lying around.  You are going to get a lovely
>>>>># shower."  
>>>>> 
>>>>>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>>>>>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

>>>>	Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.  

>>>Huh?

>>	Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
>>than they could be cremated?  The stories have all three
>>buildings in use in the process.  The aerial photos show open
>>land with not place to hide bodies.  

>>	So what have you missed? 

>I think you missed the piles of bodies laying about. 

	That is where I came in.  

"Ignore all
>>>>># those bodies lying around.  You are going to get a lovely
>>>>># shower."  

	But as you have read, one of your fellow holohuggers has just
said your claim of piles of bodies lying around is false.  That
there were no more gassed at any one time than could be burned.  
	
	You folks need to get together and come up with a single,
consistent story some day.  

I think you
>missed references to burning bodies in pits. 

	We have aerial pictures of two on them from the summer of 1944.
Those two show no such thing.  We have been over this.  

But then you miss a lot
>of stuff. I can't figure out if it is stupidity or if there is some
>other problem.

	Which story is true?  Your piles of bodies or the other without
piles of bodies?  Or do I have to continue to deal with both of
them being true truths at the same time?  

	Or would you prefer I quote you to him and him to you as evidence
you are both wrong?  	





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:17 PDT 1996
Article: 41607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4p7em6$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41607 alt.usenet.kooks:24790 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:30

mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p0u1v$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4orht7$39v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>>
>>>	Have you ever noticed that is it always screams and groans from
>>>	a painless gassing?
>>
>>>I have noticed that it is always some petty quibbling from Mr. Giwer,
>>>who now decides to lecture victims on the proper way to die!
>>
>>>When the victims realized that they were being gassed to death they
>>>screamed in terror, not in pain, and they groaned from the sudden
>>>realization that death was at hand, not from pain.  But Mr. Giwer seems
>>>to think they ought to have just relaxed and enjoyed their cruel
>>>deaths because, after all, it was painless!
>>
>>	A scream does always introduce a dramatic interlude to a work of
>>fiction.

>    Mr. Giwer must scream in the middle of each post he writes, then.


>>Are you really saying that YOU would in fact SCREAM IN
>>TERROR of death?

>    Are you really saying that no person on the planet, not even a child,
>would scream in terror?

	You mean you would scream in terror.  In case you have never
noticed it, the scream reaction is a female trait.  Where have
you been all your life?  

>>That you would GROAN when your nervous system was paralysized?  

>    Our superscientist now claims that engine exhaust paralyzes the
>nervous system instantly.  It is a wonder he does not collapse when
>crossing the street near cars.

	It is reported in cyanide also.  

>>	You are a very strange person.  

>    Just keep repeating that over and over.  If you can repeat it a
>trillion times it will become true.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:18 PDT 1996
Article: 41616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!psinntp!psinntp!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I only had orders to pour in the gas'
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:24:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>## So, Giwer, what does "Prussic acid" mean?
> 
># Hydrocyanic acid, hydrogen cyanide, HCN.
> 
>So, when Wilhelm Bahr was asked with what gas did he kill
>the group of Soviet POW's in Neuengamme, he replied "Prussic
>acid".
> 
>So, what's your problem with this testimony? has your 163-IQ
>brain come up with a new theory, say, that HCN doesn't kill
>people? Why don't you tell us about it?

># Did you think it meant Zyklon B?

	Apparently you do.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:19 PDT 1996
Article: 41618 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:51:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4p7k0n$95a@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>	You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
>>did you?  They are, after all, on a mission from god.  

>    Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating
>    lack of honesty or integrity.  I am confident that you are full of hot
>    air and are unable to do so.

	Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not
provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture.  But
you read that.  It isn't in the message any longer because you
read the explicite example.  BTW, that demonstrates a lack of
both honesty and integrity.  

	It is the sort of thing your buddy Dahlman does.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:20 PDT 1996
Article: 41623 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Did the Ashes Go?
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:22:46 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[cut]

>>>	There is no god, fool.  Not even any of the seven
>>>	gods of Israel.

>>>"The seven gods of Israel!"  What metaphysical mumbo-jumbo is
>>>Mr. Giwer quoting now?  

>>	Archaeology of course.  That is a science.  Therefore you are
>>expected to know nothing about it.

>But you know all about it, Mr. Giwer?  

	I have never claimed that.  I have merely stated the holohuggers
here are woefully ignorant of science.  

>>Next, he will claim that the ignorance that
>>>spawned this last statement makes him a better authority on Judaism
>>>than Moses.

>>	There is no evidence there ever was a Moses, or that the Hebrews
>>were ever in Egypt.  But you know that.

>And in two or three thousand years, there will be no evidence that
>you ever lived.  So what?  

	Words in the Hebrew language would contain all the evidence
needed for their being in Egypt.  There are no such words.  The
written language would show it but it does not.  

	You seriously need to consider the effect on illiterate goat
herders of living in civilization for 400 years.  What we find
with the Hebrews is as though African-Americans showed no
indication whatsoever of ever having been in America.  

>>And you also know that
>>single idols containing all seven gods have been found all over
>>the old Israel.  These idols include Yahweh God and his consort,
>>Astarte Goddess.

>How old are those idols, Mr.Giwer?  

	They date from 600 to 1000 BC that I have heard of.  They are
found in close proximity to horned altars of Yahweh from
Jerusalem to the boonies.  

	Were you hoping to find them pre-Moses?  What would the locals
know of Yahweh pre-Moses? 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:21 PDT 1996
Article: 41625 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:14:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> > 
>> >"The Diary of Anne Frank" was a film, based on Anne Frank's diary.
>> > 
>> >"Anne Frank Remembered" is a documentary, perhaps a minor one, but an
>> >Academy Award winner this year. It contains interviews with the people who
>> >knew Anne Frank, mostly in Amsterdam.
>> 
>> 	I am confusing nothing.  I  am asking you for the info the movie
>> which you have failed to provide.  Which movie studio made it.
>> At least, who starred in it as a minimum.

>The film _The Diary of Anne Frank_ was made in 1959, and starred Millie 
>Perkins and Josph Schildkraut, with Shelley Winters in a supporting 
>role.  Don't know the studio offhand, but the movie is frequently run on 
>TV; Bravo and the Disney Channel had it on this week, and I'm sure it's 
>available in your local video store.

>The documentary is in current release, and you should have no trouble 
>finding information on it by checking the movie ads for large cities (it 
>only played 2 weeks in Tucson, so I'm waiting for the video release).  

>Why don't you do your own blasted research?

	Isn't that what the internet is for?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:22 PDT 1996
Article: 41626 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:18:14 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4p32g9$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) writes:

>	The building is NOT a hexagon.  ONLY the Hall of
>	Rememberance is.

>So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that
>proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish
>victims.  I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not count
>for anything.

	And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and it
purpose.  While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six remind
you of?  Which six are you remembering?  Or does it have no
meaning at all?  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:19:22 PDT 1996
Article: 41627 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:17:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
> 
>Giwer dropped his extremely idiotic line of argument (which
>was that the court said that Pohl was *himself* in Treblinka and 
>that he made items from human hair *in Treblinka*), and now he
>goes on to babble:

	Your steam story is dead.  Personal attacks will not resurrect
it.  
 
># I thought it was clear from the beginning that the doormat story
># was also a lie. 
> 
>Giwer's problem is that there is no connection between what
>he thinks and reality. He also thought that Zyklon-B
>doesn't release HCN in a temperature of 20 C. He can test
>his hypothesis by standing in a room which is 20 C hot,
>and dropping Zyklon-B on the floor.

	I said no such thing.  So why the diversionary falsification?  
 
># It appears you believe it.  
> 
>I already said - and Giwer read it - that, as I recall, Yad-Vashem
>(Holocaust memorial center in Israel) has a small rug made
>of human hair. I suggested to him to send them a letter and
>ask about this. 

	Sure.  That is why they have a picture of it on their site.  But
some day you might ask yourself just what other products are made
of any other natural fur or fiber like human hair.  (The answer
is none)  Then you need to ask yourself where to find the
machines that processed this human hair to do something with it.
(The answer is the same, none.)  Or were these machines, designed
and proven and then blown up?  
 
># After all, there had to be a lot left after it was used to stuff
># mattresses and make socks for submariners and all the other really
># important uses that were made of it.  
> 
>Hair was used for various purposes. Tons of it were shipped from
>the camps; tons were found in Auschwitz. There is no a-priori
>reason to assume it wasn't used for other purposes as well.
 
	You mean, no reason other than the lack of ability to do more
than use it for stuffing.  Don't tell me you believe the socks
story too.  

	You get off on the soap story too?  

># The steam story was fabricated too.  Get over it.  
> 
>Your IQ is not really 163 as you claim. It's more like 75. Get 
>over it.

	More diversion.  
 
>What exactly does Giwer mean by "the steam story"? 

	The claim that it was because they were not close enough that
they confused oil vapor with steam.  Your story.  Remember?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:52:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41633 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:29:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>>I have already quoted the testimony of Rudolf Hoess who described that
>>>remaining bones fell constantly through a grating into a special mill and were
>>>crushed...

>>	Another amazing description.  Human ash constantly fell through
>>BUT the burning coke did not fall through the same grate.  How do
>>you explain that?  Why is it no one has found any bone crushing
>>equipment below the ovens?   Perhaps Hoess was describing the
>>installation at Wolzek.

>Who told you the coke was in the same place where the corpses were
>disposed ? Who told you the remains were crushed below the ovens ?

	If you look at the message you will see a name and email address
for the person.  Take it up with him.  

>>>In the same testimony Hoess describes how the ashes were put on lorries and transported
>>>to the nearby river where they dissolved quickly...

>>	Dissolved?  Is this special nazi chemistry?  Sorry but all those
>>tons are still on the banks of the river but no one has ever
>>found them.

>Rivers use to flow toward the ocean.

	Ashes don't float, they sink.  You drop in a few tons of them and
they sink right there on the banks where you dumped them.  Of if
they found a way to get them further out (love to read a
description of that) they are on the bottom right there.  The
best you get is some degree of downstream spreading.  

	You want to go into a discussion of water flow in rivers next?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 10:52:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41634 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:57:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>>>Deception alert!  If we have 1 gram of hamburger and 18% of it is fat,
>>>>>then it releases .18 * (9000) = 1620 calories.  Mr. Giwer has no
>>>>>justification to multiply this number by .1. 

>>>>	Therefore after the 90% of water is gone you can only use 18% of
>>>>the remaining 10% as fat.  Thus the justification.  

>And with 75% of water, what would you say ? Some justification to 90%
>instead of 75% (65% is more often admitted) ? Do you even have a clue,
>somewhat that the fat is concerned with the water's rate ?

>>	The floor is yours, Dr. Green.

>No, yours. Give **one** reference for 90% and that the fat is mixed
>with water (your mix seems to be all wrong).

	It was an AGREED upon place to start from when WE started this
some months ago.  Would you like to start over with different
agree upon assumptions?  If you, you first.  

	The purpose of this exercise is to prove that the human body is
exothermic.  

	Eventually this will lead to a requirement to demonstrate that
after the first body is burned in a oven only a few pounds of
additional fuel is needed for each of the following cremations.  

	Want to go through the exercise?  Even if you win the first, you
will lose the second.  Green must have finally realized that and
stopped the exchange.  Or he is just laying in wait to continue
the diversionary issue of bodies burning while trying to keep
attention from the problem of not enough coke for the bodies
claimed.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 12:45:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41639 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:33:11 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Richard Schultz wrote:

>>Every time I think "he can't possibly produce something that will better
>>prove his complete stupidity," I am proven wrong.  Asking "what is the
>>pH of CO2

>Come on now, be fair about it.  The question obviously intended to point
>out that CO2 in the gaseous state has no pH (puissance hydrogen) value. 
>Since acid concentrations are commonly related to pH values, the
>interpretation is that CO2 is not a Bronsted acid, nor would it typically
>be called an acid in common useage.  That's all.

	They only know how to attack the messenger.  The message is too
clear.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 12:45:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41641 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:16:07 GMT
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>Green never said that CO2 is only a Bronsted-Lewis acid. It is obvious
>>>that the pH will be modified with the liquid. In our case the liquid
>>>is indoubtly H2O.

>>	As the expert you are you know you never at any time specified
>>dissociation in water.

>In French, to be 'politically correct', we name 'hard of hearing' the
>deafs. Then I will say that you are 'hard of understanding'.

>Green said that CO2 was a Bronstedt acid when solved in water, 

	So you agree with him that CO2 is the same as H2CO3?  It is NOT
disolved.  It is a chemical reaction.   It becomes something
else.  

but
>never said that CO2 wasn't an acid with another definitions; he said
>too that another definitions were too subtle for you. Schultz said
>that CO2 was always an acid, ever in the gazeous form. I said that it
>doesn't matter, while in Kremas CO2 was solved in H2O, but I said too
>that CO2 was an acid in another definitions that the one of Bronsted.

	It does appear these chemists will say just about anything,
doesn't it?  

>In fact, we all three said the same thing. You answered only that Jews
>were allowed to lye to goyes. I don't take it as an insult, but as an
>honour from your antisemitic part.

>Since you don't admit that any water was present, your question about
>the pKa in water is irrelevant. But if you say that water was present,
>the carbonic acid (I don't say CO2) is stronger that HCN in this
>solvant. You get the pKa in former posts.

	There was NO water mentioned in the original post.  Any water
present would already have been saturated by atmospheric CO2 in
any event.  

	So you see what we have is one more attempt to divert the
discussion away from the point of it in the first place which is
that the Krakow Forensic report is worthless to this discussion
as it failed to distinguish between never and once in one class
of its samples.  

	There is quite a bit of effort to make an issue of this report
but unfortunately it has only one data point, making it
worthless.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 12:45:54 PDT 1996
Article: 41646 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:27:31 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Mike Curtis wrote:

>>>>> But since it is an acid, it has nothing to do with quantity.
>>>>>Whatever would react would "stick" as you so quaintly put it.--M.
>Giwer
>>
>>>>With a strong acid, certainly. Prussic acid is weaker than CO2. --M.
>Bilik
>>
>>> CO2 is not an acid.--M. Giwer
>>
>>He didn't say it was, idiot.--M. Curtis

>Sure seems like he did.  He's saying the CO2 is weaker than a strong acid
>but stronger than Prussic acid.  What other conclusion could be drawn?

	That they do not want any more discussion of the worthlessness of
the Krakow Forensic report.  If people stop talking about it
being worthless they can pretend it means something even though
the results were far less significant and had much lower levels
than found by Leuchter.

	And of course Leuchter's collection and analysis methods have
never been questioned.  They do not want to discuss that either.


	You see, if they understood science they would have attacked the
methods.  Or perhaps they tried and found they only way to deal
with it was to attack the messenger.  They fail to realize that
his background is irrelevent to his methods.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 12:45:55 PDT 1996
Article: 41648 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:31:38 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Rich Green wrote:

>>I agree with
>>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid.  It is, however, a Lewis
>>acide, but that's beside the point.

>OK, I'll buy that.  And after reading this far in the thread I agree with
>you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is
>about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is,
>but.....

	Anything to prevent discussion that the Polish report is
worthless.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 12:45:56 PDT 1996
Article: 41649 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:24:45 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## This proves that, in general, no more people were gassed in
>## 24 hours than the number that could be incinerated during
>## 24 hours.

># Which is a maximum of 12 per oven no matter how many are stuffed
># in at one time.  We have been here.

>But we were also there when you said that diesels can't produce
>white fumes, or that Zyklon won't release any HCN in a temperature
>of 20 C, or whatever.

	First I said nothing of the kind about HCN but you will continue
with that claim.  AND I said that it would not produce a white
exhaust when you were claiming CO poisoning as the cause of
death.  You did not realize that what you were claiming was death
by suffocation.  

	But then you will continue these false claims in the hopes that
repetition will make them acceptable.  

>The number per oven was far higher; the Jahrling letter to SS
>General Kammler gave a figure of 4,756 for all the crematoriums
>combined, in 24 working hours. Now, you will say it's physically
>impossible. 

	The is correct.  It is physically impossible.

	The letter is bullshit or forged or whatever you would like.  A
letter can not make things burn faster at a lower temperature
than they burn today.  Physics doesn't work that way.  

>But you are not the authority on what's possible
>and what's not possible, 

	But, as you know, the matter has been researched as to the time
it does take at a far higher temperature.  The people asked were
those in the business.  

although you have an alleged IQ of
>163, and although you've been working in the "real world" for,
>what was that, 95 years or whatever.

	That makes it simple.  They had 396 ovens.  It is commonly called
division.  Divide the total number per day by the individual oven
capacity and you get the number of ovens.  I would have thought 

	It is rather amusing to see you can not find a way to reconcile
your fantasy world with the real world.  The letter could say a
million a day for all I care.  It would not change what is
possible.  

># We have aerial photos of two of them from August 1944 with no
># sign of either the Kremas being in operation or any open pit
># burning.  Those are the only two methods reported.  We have been
># over this.                                                           

>We have one such photo as I recall, taken towards the end of
>August (I think; wasn't it August 25?). However, we do have a
>photo taken in Birkenau itself, showing the open pit burning;
>and, as I recall, Mr. Van-Alstine posted the results of excavations
>held in the location of the "burning pits", which discovered
>human remains in them.

	There have been two such pictures.  Both have been posted here.
They are not in operation.  The open pit picture is undated.  

># Now that you have the maximum numbers, multiply.

>Er, ah, 163 Giwerian IQ points times 0.02 (for 50 articles
>per day), gives 3.26 IQ points in average per article?

	In other words, when you can not make your fantasy world fit into
the real world, refuse to think.  

             






>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

>-Lu Xun.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 13:43:18 PDT 1996
Article: 41659 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:50:35 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine wrote:

>>It also ignores the fact that some
>>Jewish religious strictures, such as not eating pork, did have
>>preventative health benifits. In the case of the stricture against eating
>>pork, it helped prevent trichinosis even though Moses hadn't the
>slightest
>>idea what _Trichinella spiralis_ was or looked like.

>Read an interesting article about the pork taboo in which another
>possibility was put forth (the writer didn't buy the trichinosis theory, I
>think because of a lesser incidence of the problem in the Middle East, but
>don't recall all his reasons).  At any rate, he pointed out that pork is a
>very tasty meat, highly prized by many cultures.  However, raising pigs is
>a water intensive affair and they eat, well, like hogs.  

	And they are omniverous like people and have to have the same
kinds of foods that people can eat.  That makes them direct
competitors in places where food is scarce.  

Unless penned up,
>they are also clever and voracious raiders who would likely invade food
>supplies (and, given the chance, consume small children).   It would have
>been a considerable strain on stores and human resources for desert nomads
>to operate a piggery in their harsh environment, constantly on the move,
>thus the elders received a timely and convenient message from on high that
>pigs were piggona non grata in the camp.  Sounds reasonable, probably even
>to the pigs if they thought about it.

	You will also note that pigs are not herd or flock animals.  If
they are allowed to run loose they scatter.  

	They do not develop any dependence upon people for care.  They
are only marginally domesticated.  

	They would also be predators to young sheep and goats.  

	And despite the movie, almost never develop any affinity for
people.  That is what makes the pot bellied pig so extraordinary
but even that is not reliable.  Many of them start showing feral
characteristics at sexual maturity and have to be gotten rid of.







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 13:43:19 PDT 1996
Article: 41662 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWER - ANTI-SEMITE
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:38:07 GMT
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 28 May 1996 05:13:20 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!You may continue to support your unsubstantiated gassing nonsense
>!and your judeaification of the work camps all you wish.  

>What shit you are...

>!No rational person is going to accept that if the gassing story
>!goes away Nazis will come to political power.  No rational person
>!is going to accept what if the Judeocentrism of the work camps
>!goes away that Nazis will come to political power.  

>What shit you are...

>!More specifically, no rational person thinks Jews are that
>!important, period.  

>What shit you are...

	To the best of my knowledge there is no one who has ever said
that you were rational.  

	Are you still hearing me on the radio?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 13:43:19 PDT 1996
Article: 41664 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:25:18 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity?  


>	Why don't you ask Al Baron?

	He is not the one who found a problem with what I said.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 13:43:20 PDT 1996
Article: 41666 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:40:59 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Richard Schultz wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>: >Would Mr. Giwer consider CO2 dissolved in water an acid?  Yes or no?

>:  That is not under discussion, deceitful one.  The discussion is
>: CO2, a gas, as you can plainly see.  

>It doesn't matter whether it's in the gas phase or in solution:
>CO2 is an acid.  Sorry Charlie.  

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il

>******

>How does CO2 achieve this status without a proton to donate?

	Deficite spending.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 18:43:05 PDT 1996
Article: 267162 of talk.politics.guns
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Anti-NRA comment in movie  "Arrival"
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:14:24 GMT
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Jeff Doar  wrote:

>Aspivens wrote:
># 
># During the movie Arrival Charlie Sheen made the comment " f-----g NRA it's
># so easy to get one (hand gun )".  If you deceide to skip the movie you
># won't be missing much. The least of which is Sheen"s poor performance.

>A friend of mine who saw the movie over the weekend echoed these two comments. 
>Perhaps a letter to:
>a) Sheen's "talent" agency
>and/or
>b) the producers of the film

>is in order.

>Just a thought...

	I have not seen it.  My son has.  We are both into SF.  He
stronly advised me not to waste my money.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 20:18:33 PDT 1996
Article: 21849 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
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sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) wrote:

>If I remember my scanner data, a 'heavy user' of peanuts (household,
>not individual) buys about 50 ounces PER YEAR. (This is a problem. The
>category is declining as Frito et al have taken over salty snacks.) I
>don't have a calculator handy, but you can see the order of magnitude.

>Of course, most kosher issues settle on prepared meat and dairy
>products, so you'd have to put them in a market basket. But many other
>products either can never be kosher, or their producers don't bother.
>Regional and family-run businesses often don't do certification so
>they'd be excluded from the basket. Even so, if the typical cost of
>the basket  is more than $.25/household/year I'd be surprised. 

	I would have thought that, unless one adds to Mosaic law as in
the cheeseburger, it is rather difficult to make most food
non-kosher, peanuts for example.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:43:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41708 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:46:05 GMT
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4p7k0n$95a@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>	You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
>>>>did you?  They are, after all, on a mission from god.  
>> 
>>>    Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating
>>>    lack of honesty or integrity.  I am confident that you are full of hot
>>>    air and are unable to do so.
>> 
>>	Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not
>>provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture.  But
>>you read that.  It isn't in the message any longer because you
>>read the explicite example.  BTW, that demonstrates a lack of
>>both honesty and integrity.  
>> 
>>	It is the sort of thing your buddy Dahlman does.  

>    This last line is a pointless troll.

	It is a statement of fact.  That is why he fits in so well with
the holohuggers.  

>    Regarding the thrust of your post:

>    1. I posted the above to you before Moran's post about URLs made it to
>    my site.  Ergo, I didn't lie by omission.

>    2. Moran is wrong.  John Morris's response to his tirade included the
>    following URLs:

>    

>Along with the subcollections he mentions, Tom Moran's complete posts
>for May and June 1996 are at

>     http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom

>Previous archives of his posts may be viewed at

>  http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/1995

>    moran.1195                           111.8K     2 Dec 95
>    moran.1295                           275.3K    31 Dec 95

>and at

>  http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/1996

>    moran.0196                           425.0K    31 Jan 96
>    moran.0296                           613.3K    29 Feb 96
>    moran.0396                           279.6K    31 Mar 96
>    moran.0496                           536.1K    30 Apr 96

>    

>    Ergo, you didn't check any of this out.  You simply took Moran's word
>    for the lack of archives even though he has a history of impompetence
>    dealing with web sites (as a web site expert you should have been aware
>    of his incompetence.)

>    You owe me an apology.

	Not at all.  Anything found to be incomplete as he stated they
were is a lack of both honesty and integrity.  Simply failing to
post the entire thread to which a message is a part is taking a
post out of context and also indicates a lack of honesty and
integrity.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:43:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41723 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 07:00:31 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># The "eyewitness" was close enough to know the composition of
># doormats and that was a lie and therefore the steaming was a lie.

>1) Where does it say that the actual manufacturing of items
>   from human hair took place in Treblinka?

	The SAME person was convicted of BOTH crimes.  What further
connection do you insist upon?

>2) If so, who says it took place in the same area of the camp in
>   which the gas chambers were?

	The same conviction.

>Let's start with these two.

	Your "too far away to tell" BS is shot to shit.



----
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:43:50 PDT 1996
Article: 41765 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:37:36 GMT
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>But we were also there when you said that diesels can't produce
>>>white fumes, or that Zyklon won't release any HCN in a temperature
>>>of 20 C, or whatever.

>>	First I said nothing of the kind about HCN but you will continue
>>with that claim.  AND I said that it would not produce a white
>>exhaust when you were claiming CO poisoning as the cause of
>>death.  You did not realize that what you were claiming was death
>>by suffocation.  

>In fact the more likely is both CO and lack of O2, with NOx added. A
>low rate of O2 is lethal. An high rate of CO is lethal. NOx is lethal
>even at low rates (400ppm). The mix is lethal, and it is difficult to
>say what was the principal cause. The lack of O2 could be sufficient
>by itself (or NOx, aso). The pink color of the bodies in some cases
>could only be an indication that the CO was the principal cause, but
>the CO is far more toxic when the rate of O2 is low, then O2 is
>involved too.

	You are not following the thread.

	It started as an observation that there were four causes of death
at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution
and vacuum chambers.  It also turns out there was a conviction
for steaming so they were not merely mistaken reports they were
rather clear lies.  

	He jumped onto the steaming one by quoting from a report showing
that diesels could exhaust oil vapor when run extremely rich and
thus would produce a white exhaust that could be confused with
steam from a distance.  

	At that level the cause of death would be suffocation from oil
covered lungs.  

	However, even the original explanation had major problems
primarily due to the flammability of oil vapors and it condensing
inside the building making it highly flammable.  

	He has yet to attempt to "explain away" electrocution and vacuum
chambers but he sure does love his gas story even though the
conviction was for steaming.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:43:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41778 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:07:28 GMT
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mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p22h8$ce2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4oudd2$d1u@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>>>  	Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the
>>>>>>  Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the
>>>>>>  holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private
>>>>>>  holocaust by country and by percentage in that country.  This of
>>>>>>  course permits us to calculate the total number of in those
>>>>>>  countries, presumably at the end of the war.  That gives us 9.6
>>>>>>  million.
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>    Oh, gee, I missed this one before.  No wonder I couldn't figure out
>for the life of me what Giwer was going on about.  The SWC percentages
>were of _prewar_ population, not _end of the war_ population.  There is no
>"presumably" about it.  The SWC question quite clearly and explicitly
>reads

>>5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what
>>percentage of the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?
>                   ^^^^^^^

>    It would be so nice if Matt Giwer would learn to read, really it
>would.

	Gee you are correct.  They did have enough births to increase
their population by 14% in only four years.  At that rate the
Jewish population doubled ever seven years.  

	Are you really sure you want to stick with this position in
defending the SWC nonsense?  Or would you like to fall back to
claiming like McVay that it was some unstated difference between
occupied and unoccupied?  

	Anything else you would like to make up? 




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 41782 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:23:11 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:


But isn't the Nizkor leaders
>  like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
>  shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
>  pressures? 

	Certainly.  There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
Combase until I was dropped.  They even posted a bit on it here.
That is called censorship the last time I heard.  It is also
called a conspiracy.  
	
	Who else would do it be a holohugger?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 41791 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18:52:31 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
> 
># Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
># than they could be cremated?  
> 
>This is obvious. It's very easy to kill people; it takes longer
>to get rid of the corpses. 
> 
>This proves that, in general, no more people were gassed in
>24 hours than the number that could be incinerated during
>24 hours. 

	Which is a maximum of 12 per oven no matter how many are stuffed
in at one time.  We have been here.  

But this was obvious. In the summer of 1944, when
>the largest numbers of people were being murdered, new cremation
>facilities were used.

	We have aerial photos of two of them from August 1944 with no
sign of either the Kremas being in operation or any open pit
burning.  Those are the only two methods reported.  We have been
over this.  	
 
># So what have you missed?  
> 
>Frankly, what I miss the most is an indication of your alleged
>163 IQ. I have really seen no such indication. Nor an indication
>that you can understand third grade arithmetic.

	Now that you have the maximum numbers, multiply.  And please, no
smoke blowing about coffins and pure, white ashes.  We have been
over that also.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:56 PDT 1996
Article: 41803 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Relevant Quote About Nuremberg
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:04:50 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:


>From  by Bradley F. Smith (no, not _that_
>Bradley Smith!), New York: 1977.  page 66

>... The British wanted to simplify the evidence, take stock of what
>existed, pick the defendants, and go to trial immediately.  The Americans,
>OTOH, contended that what they wanted was not merely to convict a handful
>of defendants but the spread the net as widely as possible and even
>suggested preparing an indictment of a hundred or so co-conspirators.  The
>French and the Russians bounced back and forth ...

>On August 13, the Soviets suggested a plan that offered a way out. 
>Instead of collectively haggling about the case as a whole, the Soviets
>recommended that it be divided into four parts.  They would handle the war
>crimes and crimes against humanity that had occurred in Eastern Europe,
>and the French would cover similar crimes that had taken place in the
>West.  The British would prepare the case for crimes against peace, and
>the Americans would deal with conspiracy and criminal organizations. ...
>In fact, the four prosecutions seized on the idea with great enthusiasm,
>and it not only served to delineate responsibility for preparing evidence,
>but became the blueprint for the actual presentations at Nuremberg. ends>

	Thank you.  That does explain the strange nature of the
interrogations and why these gas chambers were only found in
Eastern Europe, Russian justice.  Why the Nazis were even
convicted of Katyn Woods.  It would be interesting to compare the
testimony and evidence in that trial (?) to the rest of the
holocaust convictions.    





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41805 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange things on IX
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:05:04 GMT
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From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41806 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange things on IX
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:06:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Strange interrogations

     One of the more interesting aspects of questions asked of
the witnesses and those charged (from what purport to be
transcripts) is that they don't pursue what one would expect to
be of serious interest to the questioner.  For example where you
would expect the questioner to carefully lead a witness through
every step of what he knows about the case that was not the case.
     When a witness is asked, did you see any people gassed and
the answer is yes the follow up question will be for a
description of what he saw.  The answer will be something
typically morbid with contrary to science embellishments.
     Questions that are not asked are, for example, can you
identify any of the people who did the gassing?  Can you identify
the building?  Is this a picture of the building?  None of those
tedious questions that go to establishing the credibility of the
witness are asked.
     Thus we are left today with many problems such as the "guess
which building" problem.  There are similar problems with
witnesses to cremation, people, most everything else.  Every time
the questioner gets a response that would ordinarily be explored
to establish credibility and develop further information it does
not happen.
     The problem becomes that this is like no other prosecutorial
questioning we are familiar with.  It is clearly not to establish
the facts of the case.  It is not to gather information for other
cases.  It is not clear what the purpose is other than to create
a record that is convincing only to those unfamiliar with the way
direct examinations of witnesses are conducted.

Who was in charge of these investigations?

     Prior to the end of the war, the rumors had it that every
camp had a gas chamber.  After the war they were only found in
territories controlled by the Russians.  And of course the
Russians were solely responsible for investigation of what had
occurred in Russia.
     And only the Russians found gas chambers.  This was of
course the Soviet system of justice, world renown for it
fairness, honesty and integrity.  Ask Alexander Solzenitzyn about
it.  He spent enough time in a Gulag because of it.
     The Soviet system has never been particularly interested in
a careful trial for those it has determined are guilty.  Consider
that they convicted several Nazis of murdering some 3200 Polish
officers when the Soviets were the ones who had killed them.  It
is not clear why anyone would have any confidence in the Soviet
justice system simply because they found so many gas chambers and
mass murders in light of their willingness to use the legal
system to murder others.
     Does one unconditional reject all Soviet evidence and
trials?  Of course not.  But knowing what they did do they must
be held to a very much higher standard of scrutiny than that
developed by the US, French and British.  And that standard of
scrutiny must be such that it would uncover the massacre of
Polish troops had that been subjected to the same standards.
     That is a high standard, certainly too high for historians
to meet but without meeting this standard Soviet evidence can be
granted no credibility.  After all, they did miss those
responsible for the massacre of the Polish officers.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:58 PDT 1996
Article: 41809 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Giwer HiLite
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:43:41 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, the
>one and only "revisionist scholar" with an (alleged) IQ of
>163, the mighty Matt Giwer, gave the following explanation
>as to why construction documents from Auschwitz-Birkenau
>mention the gassing installations:

>

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

># The construction documents do mention a "gassing cellar" and
># a "gas chamber" in the Kremas.

>One needs to ask why that one person would call it that.
>Perhaps a morbid sense of humor.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>[emphasis mine - d.k]

>

>What more can one add to this display of "revisionist"
>scholarship. There were not any gas chambers in the
>Kremas, the "leading revisionist" says, but some SS
>officer had a morbid sense of humor, so he said there
>were.

	You pull one reference out of hundreds that say otherwise and
want to make some serious issue of it it being the only "uncoded"
reference.  And given that clear lies have been introduced into
court and used as evidence to get people executed there is no
particular reason to take this one reference as anything
significant without one hell of a lot more than some holohugging
author having put it in a book.

>Heck, why not go on to claim Germany never invaded     
>Poland. They said they did, but it was only a joke.

	I would rather ask why England did not declare war on both
Germany and Russia.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41824 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Many things change
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:11:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
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 This all seems very out of place with what I have always heard
about World War II.

     Most all of the motivations and intentions of the Nazis in
WW II that you have heard are clearly war propaganda.  Now before
you get turned off, I am not going to defend Nazi Germany in the
least.  I am going primarily state facts that you should have
learned in grade school.  There is more to it than I and going to
discuss in this section.
     Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that
Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland,
declared war on Germany.  There you have the way it is always
presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight.
     But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
Poland.  But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
declared war on Germany and not Russia.  What is the explanation
for this?  If England's reason for declaring war upon Germany was
just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
     Clearly the reason for declaring war does not support the
facts of the joint Russian-German invasion of Poland.  Was this
ever pointed out to you in history class?  In fact it points to
Germany being the butt of a diplomatic doublecross between Russia
and England.
     
So what else is there to this?

     In the partition of Poland, Germany was taking back part of
Germany that had been given to Poland at the end of WW I.  That
land had been part of Germany for centuries.
     Since the end of WW I Poland had been expelling Polish
citizens of German descent and taking their land as they were
forced to emigrate.
     Poland was also expelling Polish Jews into Germany.
     Germany was operating refugee camps for these people along
the Polish border.
     If you want to go into Nazi antisemitism, there are still
problems.  Despite all the rhetoric in the Nazi speeches there
were no actions taken by the Nazis against the Jews until a week
after every major Jewish organization in the world announced a
permanent economic boycott of all German goods and services.  The
first response of the Nazis was to organize a one day boycott of
Jewish merchants in Germany.  Ordinarily holocaust sources will
tell you about the Nazi boycott and imply it was permanent rather
than tell you it was one day and not tell you about the worldwide
Jewish boycott that was permanent.
     After there was no lifting of the world wide Jewish boycott,
the Nazis introduced other measures against the Jews which were
primarily matters of national security and LESS severe than what
happened to Japanese Americans during WW II.
     If you want to go into war preparation, there is another
clear problem we have to deal with.  Germany was unprepared for
war with England.
     For this we have to go back to WW I where one of England's
greatest weapons against Germany was a naval blockade.  And in
that war Germany's greatest weapon against the naval blockade was
the submarine.  At the time England selectively declared war on
Germany, Germany had exactly 27 submarines.
     Despite what you might hear in the WW II documentaries, they
were being sunk as fast as they were being built.  There were
never more than 29 operational submarines at any one time.  The
damage you see is due to the anti-submarine warfare technology
and tactics of the day being such that a torpedo hit was the
first indication of a German submarine in the area.  The sonars
were only good enough help find them after heading in the
direction of the best guess as to where the submarine was.
     What this adds up to is that there was clearly no
expectation of a war with England as a result of the partition of
Poland with Russia.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:00 PDT 1996
Article: 41827 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:24:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41827 alt.usenet.kooks:24846 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:35

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p7em6$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>    Are you really saying that no person on the planet, not even a child,
>>>would scream in terror?
>>
>>	You mean you would scream in terror.  In case you have never
>>noticed it, the scream reaction is a female trait.  Where have
>>you been all your life?  

>    If you don't know that male children also scream, 

	That may be your experience as you were raised with a non-human
species.  

perhaps you are
>the one who needs to answer that question.  But now you admit that some
>people, at least, scream.  Very good, we are making progress.
 
	If you are really going to claim you do not remember little
(human) girls practicing screaming, you lead a very sheltered
childhood.  

>    Now please produce the testimony which explicitly identified screams
>as coming from adult male victims.  I don't recall any which identified
>the gender, but I do not claim to have read them all.

	You should as it is reported of adult males.  You don't even read
the damned NG and yet you appeal to your ignorance as evidence.  

>>>>That you would GROAN when your nervous system was paralysized?  
>>
>>>    Our superscientist now claims that engine exhaust paralyzes the
>>>nervous system instantly.  It is a wonder he does not collapse when
>>>crossing the street near cars.
>>
>>	It is reported in cyanide also.  

>    Excuse me, Mr. Superscientist, sir, but did you not tell us recently
>that cyanide is one product of incomplete combustion?  And, as you know,
>combustion is not perfect even in a well-tuned car.  Therefore by your own
>word there should be cyanide in engine exhaust.  Therefore people should
>be paralyzed right and left on the street if what you said is true.  Do
>you claim that this is the case?

	Concentration of course as any vaguely scientifically literate
person would not have to be told.  

>    It would seem that you too are using your knowledge of science to
>deceive, in other words.  Of course, perhaps the problem is just that you
>were lying about having any.

	Doesn't work, scientific illiterate.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:01 PDT 1996
Article: 41832 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:40:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4op5ht$ni@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>>That being said, however, I really think it was somewhat premature of
>>>you to comment on these "testimonies" until our resident historian par
>>>excellence (aka Al "BISS" Baron) has had an opportunity to review them
>>>with his "policeman's eye" - and offer his inimitable pronouncement to
>>>guide us all in our consideration of these "documents".  As we all
>>>know, "gruesome details" are his specialty.
>>>
>>>
>>Having read the testimony that Ingrid offers, and having not put quotation
>>marks around it, I would think that the above readers would show a little
>>more restraint and respect.

>>I would say that I have read hundreds of survivor testimonies and hundreds
>>of expellee testimonies.  There are certain things that I consider
>>plausible, and there are certain things that I consider implausible.  I do
>>not, for that reason, ridicule such testimonies, nor do I -- at the same
>>time -- make jokes about them.  I certainly _have_ expressed reservations,
>>but certainly never in such words as these.

>There is no doubt that horrific atrocities were committed against the
>Germans in the latter phases of the war, and, let's not kid ourselves, in
>large degree, but not only, by the Russians.  Without commenting on the
>specific atrocities referred to in previous posts, nothing is gained by
>trying to deny them, or make light of them.  Atrocities on either side are
>wrong.

>As horrible as they were however, they in no way diminish the guilt of the
>Nazi Germans for their attempt to exterminate the Jews, and other peoples. 

	Only collectivists (marxists, racists) see people as a group
rather than individuals.  For example, if you were to make this
case of a failed attempt then it is less culpable as a failed
attempt than a successful attempt on an individual.  But such
things are beyond the grasp of holohuggers.  

>And they in no way are relevant to the truth of that attempt.  Atrocities
>committed in war, in the heat of battle (or after it--rape and pillage), as
>abhorrent and wrong as they are, are quite another thing when compared to a
>planned and deliberate attempt--carried out methodically and
>cold-bloodedly--to exterminate an entire people.  Let us not forget that.

	Tell that to the Canaanites and the other -ites exterminated by
the Israelites.  Those folks could have given the Nazis lessons
in extermination.  At least they succeeded where the Nazis
failed.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:01 PDT 1996
Article: 41833 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's misrepresent to make a story
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 05:06:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4p2aov$lu@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>
>>	Two questions from the Wisenthal Center's 36 questions about the
>>Holocaust.

>>7. What does the term "Final Solution" mean and what is its
>>origin? 

>>     Answer: The term "Final Solution" (Endl"sung) refers to
>>Germany's plan to murder all the
>>     Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee Conference (Berlin;
>>January 20,1942)
>>     where German officials discussed its implementation. 

>>===

>>	Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is in
>>support of previous "answers" of mass gassings.  But we all know that mass
>>gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee
>>Protocol.

>The Wannsee document says nothing about mass gassings, and the only one who
>tries to make such a connection, so he can then strike down the strawman he
>has just erected, is the Giwer-troll.  Nor does the SWC make that
>connection.  Only the Giwer-troll, who never stops adding dishonesty to
>vulgarity, stupidity and simple trolling.

	From the SWC Q&A

6. What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they
located? 

     Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration
camp with special apparatus
     specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps
existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau,
     Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka. All were
located in Poland. 

7. What does the term "Final Solution" mean and what is its
origin? 

     Answer: The term "Final Solution" (Endl"sung) refers to
Germany's plan to murder all the
     Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee Conference
(Berlin; January 20,1942)
     where German officials discussed its implementation. 

8. When did the "Final Solution" actually begin? 

     Answer: While thousands of Jews were murdered by the Nazis
or died as a direct result of
     discriminatory measures instituted against Jews during the
initial years of the Third Reich,
     the systematic murder of Jews did not begin until the German
invasion of the Soviet Union
     in June 1941. 

	Only a liar for the holocaust can miss the connection between
gassings, murder and the Wannsee Conference.  

	As I noted, it is a deliberate misrepresentation by the SWC and
by all holohuggers for that matter.  

>>===

>>10. How did the Germans treat those who had some Jewish blood but were not
>>classified as Jews? 

>>     Answer: Those who were not classified as Jews but who had some Jewish
>>blood were
>>     categorized as Mischlinge (hybrids)and were divided into two groups: 

>>     Mischlinge of the first degree--those with two Jewish
>>grandparents; 
>>     Mischlinge of the second degree--those with one Jewish
>>grandparent. 

>>     The Mischlinge were officially excluded from membership in the Nazi
>>Party and all Party
>>     organizations (e.g. SA, SS, etc.). Although they were
>>drafted into the Germany Army, they
>>     could not attain the rank of officers. They were also barred from the
>>civil service and from
>>     certain professions. (Individual Mischlinge were, however, granted
>>exemptions under
>>     certain circumstances.) Nazi officials considered plans to sterilize
>>Mischlinge, but this was
>>     never done. During World War II, first-degree Mischlinge,
>>incarcerated in concentration
>>     camps, were deported to death camps. 

>>===

>>	Here we have a claim that a sterilization plan was "considered" when we
>>know it was part of the Wannsee Protocol without
>>distinction between it and work camps as part of the plan.

>>	It is unclear why there would be such clear misrepresentation unless
>>there is a need for it.

>What is unclear is why the Giwer-troll keeps spouting this nonsense when it
>has been disproved dozens of times by citing original documents.  One would
>think he would be better served concentrating his energies on apprehending
>nefarious honkers at large and hiring a lawyer.

	As you know there have been no such postings.  I would suggest
you rather find something better to do with your life than be a
liar for the holocaust.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:02 PDT 1996
Article: 41834 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 05:45:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4p7i20$i48@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4p32g9$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) writes:
>> 
>>>	The building is NOT a hexagon.  ONLY the Hall of
>>>	Rememberance is.
>> 
>>>So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that
>>>proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish
>>>victims.  I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not count
>>>for anything.
>> 
>>	And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and it
>>purpose.  While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six remind
>>you of?  Which six are you remembering?  Or does it have no
>>meaning at all?  

>    From the specifications I read here (and we all know what is written in
>    a.r is not necessarily full and accurate), it seems as though there was
>    a design requirement put forward to symbolically make use of hexagons
>    in the design of the museum.  What I did not pull from what was written
>    here was just what the hexagon was supposed to symbolize.

	But you would rather ignore what it was clearly stated that it
was to symbolize.  

>    If I were to guess, I would guess that it symbolizes the Star of David,
>    rather then the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust.

	We know that ONLY the six million [sic] Jews are to be referred
to as the holocaust and that the others are not according to the
SWC.

>    I would be interested in being pointed to the primary design documents 
>    (or secondary sources about them) if anyone here knows of where they
>    are located.

	Sorry about that.  You lose again.  HS Holocaust MM and according
to the SWC the term holocaust only refers to the 6 million Jews.


	I have the preponderance of evidence from original sources on
this one.  You ain't got jack.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:03 PDT 1996
Article: 41838 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 05:41:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote:

>In article <4p7ps5$lu0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>>>Rich Green wrote:
>>
>>>>I agree with
>>>>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid.  It is, however, a Lewis
>>>>acide, but that's beside the point.
>>
>>>OK, I'll buy that.  And after reading this far in the thread I agree with
>>>you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is
>>>about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is,
>>>but.....
>>
>>	Anything to prevent discussion that the Polish report is
>>worthless.  

>Indeed Mr. Giwer has done everything in his power to avoid such
>discussion.

	I have always raised the issue that it contains only one data
point.  What have you done to find a second data point?




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41849 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's misrepresent to make a story
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:54:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4p56qg$88a@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4p2aov$lu@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>	Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is
>>>>in support of previous "answers" of mass gassings.  But we all
>>>>know that mass gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee
>>>>Protocol.
>>
>>>    And we all know that mass _gassing_ is not mentioned in the Wiesenthal
>>>Center text above, either.  So it is not clear what point you are trying
>>>to make here.
>>
>>	I originally simply made the point that there were about 1.5
>>million unaccounted for people.  I was simply pointing out how
>>many others have apparently vanished without a trace.  

>    This in no way addresses your claim that the SWC implied the Wannsee
>minutes supported mass _gassing_.  Please explain, using commonly accepted
>meanings of English words, how the SWC's words imply that mass gassings
>are discussed in the Wannsee Protocol.

>    Your attempt to pretend you were saying something other than what you
>were clearly saying is rather pathetic.

	If you had ever bothered to read the previous answers you would
know what I am talking about.  I will be happy to post all 36 of
them to you if you can not look at them on your own.  

>>>    So please show us where in the Wannsee Protocol a final resolution of
>>>the differing opinions was reached.  I can find no mention in the document
>>>as to whether the sterilization that Stuckart PROPOSED was actually
>>>ADOPTED or not.  With tentative language like "proposed," "possible
>>>solutions," "should be," "possibilities," "advocates the opinion," all
>>>they seem to be doing is CONSIDERING it, just as the Wiesenthal Center
>>>said.  Please show us where the sterilization plan was formally adopted
>>>and implemented.  Quote the words, whether from the Wannsee Protocol or
>>>any other source you can find, that show a clear adoption of a
>>>sterilization plan even vaguely resembling what is discussed in the
>>>Wannsee Protocol, let alone an implementation of it.  I would be most
>>>interested to see it.
>>
>>     "Persons of mixed blood of the first degree who are exempted
>>
>>from evacuation ^b will be^b sterilized in order to prevent any 
>>offspring and to eliminate the problem of persons of mixed blood 
>>once and for all.  Such sterilization will be voluntary.  But it 
>>is required to remain in the Reich.  The sterilized "person of 
>>mixed blood" is thereafter free of all restrictions to which he 
>>was previously subjected."
>>
>>	What does WILL BE mean in holospeak?

>    It means just what you think it means.  However, in my text which you
>dishonestly cut out, I pointed out the reasons why I conclude that the
>only honest interpretation is that the "will be" was a proposal only, not
>an announcement of settled policy.  The "will be" text was immediately
>preceded with a tentative-sounding "theoretically," and followed by people
>talking as if the issue was still open for discussion.  Why should someone
>_propose_ implementing a policy which has already been _definitely_
>adopted for implementation?

>    Now, do you suppose you can deal with my arguments rather than
>dishonestly cutting them out and only looking at one line in the text?  AS
>YOU KNOW, you took the words "will be" out of context, carefully ignoring
>all the "proposed" and "possibilities" around it.

>    And according to Matt Giwer, only a lying holohugger would do
>something like that. 

	Right on there.  You "will be" assassinated is merely a proposal
and of no legal consequence.  Japanese-Americans will be interred
is merely a proposal.  Those who break the law will be prosecuted
is merely a proposal.  

	It is no longer a surprise to me the lengths to which the
holohuggers will go to preserve their religious beliefs.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!bofh.dot!news.postech.ac.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!vyzynz!bofh.dot!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:03:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4pa93e$p2d@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ot9a8$maj@kryten.awinc.com> <4oud8p$d1u@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4p13sf$aof@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4p4o9u$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4p7erd$9vr@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <4p7inv$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tq3$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>Rivers use to flow toward the ocean.

>>	Ashes don't float, they sink.  

>It depends. Some will sink and some not. But I agree that the most
>part should sink.

	Then the vast majority of both human and the coke ashes are still
there.  It is difficult to conceive anything short of a
wheelbarrow at a time.  

>>You drop in a few tons of them and
>>they sink right there on the banks where you dumped them.  Of if
>>they found a way to get them further out (love to read a
>>description of that) they are on the bottom right there.  The
>>best you get is some degree of downstream spreading.  

>>	You want to go into a discussion of water flow in rivers next?  

>It will be uncessary. 'Some tons' do some m^3. You willn't obstruct a
>rivier with it, even less if you put the ashes from time to time. The
>beds of riviers are moving with the flow, and a part of the ashes
>could take part in the ecosystem.

	There is no choice of "from time to time" given the quantities
that were in need of disposal.  And then were are talking
thousands of tons of ashes being dumped right there on the river
bank.  

	It is not clear that calcium oxide and carbon are biologically
active particularly with such huge quantities in one place.  At
best the biological activity could only be from the surface
inward.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41864 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:07:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4pa99o$p2d@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:24:29 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
>Bilik) wrote:

>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>>>I have already quoted the testimony of Rudolf Hoess who described that
>>>>remaining bones fell constantly through a grating into a special mill and were
>>>>crushed...

>>>	Another amazing description.  Human ash constantly fell through
>>>BUT the burning coke did not fall through the same grate.  How do
>>>you explain that?  Why is it no one has found any bone crushing
>>>equipment below the ovens?   Perhaps Hoess was describing the
>>>installation at Wolzek.

>>Who told you the coke was in the same place where the corpses were
>>disposed ? Who told you the remains were crushed below the ovens ?

>As to the coke being in the retort with the body, no one told him; he
>just made it up. That's what he does.

	Try reading this.  

>>>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>>>I have already quoted the testimony of Rudolf Hoess who described that
>>>>remaining bones fell constantly through a grating into a special mill and were
>>>>crushed...

	It is a holohugger story.  

>As a rule, the firebox is below the retort and heat is conducted into
>into the retort. This is how all crematoria are designed. It is not a
>surprise to learn that Giwer does not know this simple fact as simple
>facts seem to be beneath his supergenius capabilities.

	Obviously a mere genius such as yourself can not follow who wrote
what.  

>The Dachau crematoria were a special case having been adapted from
>oil-burning to coke-burning; their fireboxes were beside the retorts.

>Abels' description, however, does look to me like it says that the
>bones were crushed below the oven which was not the case. The larger
>bone fragments were removed and crushed by pounding them in large
>mortars.

>If Giwer replies, it is of no moment to me. He is still in my
>killfile.

	Then you will not know what idiots you and your fellow holohugger
are. 




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:06 PDT 1996
Article: 41867 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!trellis.wwnet.com!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:38:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4pab5d$qgh@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4oopan$irk@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4ou84r$88c@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4p0s2v$9hh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4p55v1$haa@boris.eden.com> <4p5rdk$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p6nk7$enn@hackberry.zilker.net> <4p79vi$nmm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4p9rhr$nst@hackberry.zilker.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07  3:40:45 PM PDT 1996
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>>>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning.  "Ignore all
>>>>>>># those bodies lying around.  You are going to get a lovely
>>>>>>># shower."  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>>>>>>>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

>>>>>>	Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.  

>>>>>Huh?

>>>>	Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
>>>>than they could be cremated?  The stories have all three
>>>>buildings in use in the process.  The aerial photos show open
>>>>land with not place to hide bodies.  

>>>>	So what have you missed? 

>>>I think you missed the piles of bodies laying about. 

>>	That is where I came in.  

>>"Ignore all
>>>>>>># those bodies lying around.  You are going to get a lovely
>>>>>>># shower."  

>>	But as you have read, one of your fellow holohuggers

>I'm outa here. threst remains unread. If you can't be civil then,
>don't post to me. thanks.

	This is about the third time you have pulled this line and yet,
see above, you continue to post to me.  

	I get the strong impression you continue to post to me just so
you can post that line.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:42:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:39:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4pa7lg$rij@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>  
>>  	I would have thought that, unless one adds to Mosaic law as in
>>  the cheeseburger, it is rather difficult to make most food
>>  non-kosher, peanuts for example.  

>	The question is usually not the food itself but the manner of preparation 
>and additives.  Peanuts deep fried in a vat also used to process pork rinds would 
>not pass kosher inspection.

	Why not?  Would you assume it not be cleaned?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 15:48:02 PDT 1996
Article: 41909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing'
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:24:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <4paab2$n95@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07  3:26:42 PM PDT 1996
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## But we were also there when you said that diesels can't produce
>## white fumes, or that Zyklon won't release any HCN in a 
>temperature
>## of 20 C, or whatever.

># First I said nothing of the kind about HCN but you will continue
># with that claim.  

>Yes you did. You're senile. Seek help quickly.

>

> From: mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:22:39 GMT
> Organization: images incarnate
> Lines: 60
> Message-ID: <4kru6f$k88@wi.combase.com>

>[...]

>## There is more information to support the faster release rates;
>## I'll post it soon.

># Contact them quickly.  It not clear how there could be any release
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
># at a 20 degrees where HCN is still a liquid.  
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	It is not clear, correct.  As you were claiming rates that were
ridiculously high and at the same time you were refusing to
acknowledge that release rate is a temperature dependent
phenomenon.  

>

	You, like Nizkor, are deliberately misrepresenting what was said
by removing messages from context.  In context anyone could read
that I had already posted the time to release as a function of
temperature starting at 0C.  It was your position that it would
all be released in five minutes.  You were wrong and you are
still wrong.  

	And you steaming explantion is still bullshit.  

># AND I said that it would not produce a white exhaust when you 
># were claiming CO poisoning as the cause of death.  

>You're senile. Seek help quickly.

>

> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: That's Incredible!
> Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 05:51:44 GMT
> Organization: images incarnate
> Lines: 123
> Message-ID: <4mer7v$89n@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>

># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## as I recall, when, in the Pattle et. al. experiment, the engine
>## was run in high fuel-air ratios, there was a lot of white
>## smoke in the chamber (and, BTW, this resulted in the quickest
>## death for the animals exposed to the exhaust).

># No there is not.  When an engine is running rich the exhaust
># comes out black. 

>

	And at a 50% rich (hardly the normal range of rich anyone would
experience) the cause of death is suffocation from oil coated
lungs.  CO would be a minor contributor.  

	Your explanation for the steaming story is still bullshit.  Like
the electrocution story and the vacuum chamber story and the
gassing story, the steam story is also a creation of a demented
mind.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 15:48:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41917 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:32:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4pae9b$rqc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41917 alt.censorship:84305

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>>   True, Ernest Zundel have ask once to banned Schindler's
>>   list because it was hate propaganda against the Germans. I agree with
>>   him: it is. But I don't believe this was a good idea, I can't deny
>>   to someone else what he deny to me.

>Thank you for admitting that Ernst Zuendel is in favor of censorship.
>You are the first Holocaust-denier to not sidestep this issue, and I
>must compliment you for your courage in tackling it head-on.

>>   But isn't the Nizkor leaders
>>   like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
>>   shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
>>   pressures? Fortunatelly there's a lot of providers.

>Giwer?

>Among others?

>Unless I'm mistaken, Giwer is still posting dozens of messages a day (at
>least it seems like that's how many I'm having to kill).  His switching
>providers had nothing to do with anyone at Nizkor.

	Several HOLOHUGGERS posted in this conference that they had
called and emailed to complain to Combase about what I was
posting and how much I was posting.  There were multiple calls
and emails on the subject.  It was so much that two people who
were fielding the mail and phone decided that it was too much and
I was told to find another provider SOLELY because of that.  

	I choose a provider too large to be harrassed.  

	And there is still a holohugger who calls me a couple times a
week to do his pig imitation.  That is the level of holohuggers.


>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.

	Almanac is hosted on idirect is it not?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 15:48:06 PDT 1996
Article: 41925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:17:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4pagv5$2vg@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p5rv0$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p7usv$m1r@news.enter.net> <4p841q$qr1@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4p8q7i$9jd@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07  5:19:49 PM PDT 1996
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4p841q$qr1@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  	Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity?  


>>>	Why don't you ask Al Baron?

>>	He is not the one who found a problem with what I said.  

>This may be another red-letter day in the annals of Giwerundia.  I
>have every reason to believe that Mr. Giwer has actually uttered one
>of his extremely rare true statements. (And not only that but he
>didn't make any typos!)

>Amazing, simply amazing!

>hro

	And of course the exchange started with an all too common false
and gratuituous allegation of anti-semitism where there was none.


	But that is SOP for holohuggers.  They are not honorable people.







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 15:48:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41931 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:19:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4pah22$2vg@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  >>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  >>
>>  >>  
>>  >>  	Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity?  
>>  
>>  
>>  >	Why don't you ask Al Baron?
>>  
>>  	He is not the one who found a problem with what I said.  

>	He is the one, however, who stated that Jews have more than their share 
>of "brazen liars" becasue of a "basic flaw" in their character.  I just thought you 
>would like to debate him on the point.  Since you and Lyin' Al are two of the most 
>brazen liars I have ever encountered, I thought it would be interesting.

	You were the one with the false and gratutuous use of
anti-semitic as is expected of holohuggers who lack the subject
integrity.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 15:48:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer goofs again
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 01:47:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 181
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>    Giwer got into a discussion with Yale Edeiken about the difference of
>    1.4 million people (or so) between the census of Jews in Europe as
>    presented at SWC and the Census of Jews presented in the Wannsee
>    protocol.  Giwer asked for explanations as to why the two numbers would
>    be different.  He was hinting that if those 1.4 million Jews could be
>    lost, maybe some of the 6 million who died might actually be lost (I
>    not certain whether he outright said this or merely intimated it.)

>    I responded with five or so hypotheses for why the two numbers might
>    vary.  Yale responded with the rather clear point that the two numbers
>    were apples and oranges as they two censuses covered different
>    territories within Europe.

>At this point I wrote to Giwer:

>    Um, Matt.  This is rather transparent of you.  Yale produces a clearly
>    logical argument to show your whole thesis was flawed.  The two "adult"
>    repsonses to this are [1] admit you were mistaken, or [2] provide some
>    documentation to back up your point of view.  I see, however, you chose
>    the "juvenile" response of simply insulting him for no constructive
>    reason.

>    Pretty pitiful.

>And Giwer responded to this with:

>    Though the names are different it is only in the grouping.  As always
>    the objective was to deal with Jews in Europe exclusive of Spain.  That
>    why you never hear of anyone from North Africa being shipped off to any
>    place else.  

>So I wrote:

>    If this is what you assert, go ahead and present the numbers in a
>    format which demonstrates your point.  Short of that, given your
>    continual errors and prevarification, I will choose to accept Yale
>    Edeiken's analysis.

>And Giwer responded:

>    I already have posted that.  Do you need it again?  I guess so.

>    [snip here - Giwer asked me to find Yale's analysis.  I will let him do
>    his own homework on this.]

>    Simon Wiesenthal Center

>    5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of
>    the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?

>     Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
>     Austria 50,000 -- 27.0%			50,000	27.00%	185,185
>     Italy 7,680 -- 17.3%			7,680	17.30%	44,393
>     Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0%			28,900	44.00%	65,682
>     Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1%			71,500	78.10%	91,549
>     Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1%		78,150	66.10%	118,230
>     Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1%			143,000	85.10%	168,038
>     Bulgaria 0 -- 0.0%			0		
>     Luxembourg 1,950 -- 55.7%			1,950	55.70%	3,501
>     Denmark 60 -- 0.7%				60	0.70%	8,571
>     Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4%		100,000	71.40%	140,056
>     Estonia 2,000 -- 44.4%			2,000	44.40%	4,505
>     Norway 762 -- 44.8%			762	44.80%	1,701
>     Finland 7 -- 0.3%				7	0.30%	2,333
>     Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9%		3,000,000	90.90%	3,300,330
>     France 77,320 -- 22.1%			77,320	22.10%	349,864
>     Romania 287,000 -- 47.1%			287,000	57.10%	502,627
>     Germany 141,500 -- 25.0%			141,500	25.00%	566,000
>     Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8%			71,000	78.90%	89,987
>     Greece 67,000 -- 86.6%			67,000	86.60%	77,367
>     Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4%	1,100,000	36.40%	3,021,978
>     Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0%			569,000	69.00%	824,638
>     Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2%			63,300	81.20%	77,956

>				5,860,129	49.19%	9,644,491

>	Wannsee Protocol
>    A.   
>     Germany proper                          131,800	131,800
>     Austria                                  43,700	43,700
>     Eastern territories                     420,000	420,000
>     General Government                    2,284,000	2,284,000
>     Bialystok                               400,000	400,000
>     Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia         74,200	74,200
>     Estonia                                   - free of Jews -
>     Latvia                                    3,500	3,500
>     Lithuania                                34,000	34,000
>     Belgium                                  43,000	43,000
>     Denmark                                   5,600	5,600
>     France /  occupied territory            165,000	165,000
>               unoccupied territory          700,000	700,000
>     Greece                                   69,600	68,600
>     Netherlands                             160,800	160,800
>     Norway                                    1,300	1,300
>    B. 
>     Bulgaria                                 48,000	48,000
>     England                                 330,000	330,000
>     Finland                                   2,300	2,300
>     Ireland                                   4,000	4,000
>     Italy including Sardinia                 58,000	58,000
>     Albania                                     200	200
>     Croatia                                  40,000	40,000     
>     Portugal                                  3,000	3,000
>     Rumania including Bessarabia            342,000	342,000
>     Sweden                                    8,000	8,000
>     Switzerland                              18,000	18,000
>     Serbia                                   10,000	10,000
>     Slovakia                                 88,000	88,000
>     Spain                                     6,000	6,000
>     Turkey (European portion)                55,500	55,500
>     Hungary                                 742,800	742,800
>     USSR                                  5,000,000	5,000,000
>          Ukraine            		   2,994,684	0
>          White Russia
>          excluding Bialystok                446,484	0

>                         Total    over    11,000,000	11,291,300

>    Good enough?  

>And my response to this now is: 

>    No.  You have done no analysis, you have merely printed out two lists. 
>    If you insist they represent the same territories, piece them together
>    and show your work.  I tried to do this and found it a mess.

	Specifically what problems did you find with both of these lists
covering Europe?  

>    Several issues remain for me:

>    1. What territories do these two lists cover?  

	Europe.

>From  my reading of the
>    lists it appears they cover two different, but largely overlapping
>    blocks of land.  I see territories on one list (eg. England on the
>    Wannsee list) that are not on the other.  

	Specifically which ones do you hold are different in other than
name?

You assert they are the same
>    territory.  You said above, "Though the names are different it is only
>    in the grouping."  Go ahead and match up the groupings to make this
>    clear, please.

	Good sir, if you are truly saying that the Wannsee Conference did
not consider applying the solution to Poland then fine with me.
Until then you should consider the groupings as applying to all
of Europe as it was clearly an solution for all of Europe.  If
you think they left out any part of Europe, what might that be?  

>    2. When were these censuses taken?  As the population was rapidly
>    changing due to emigration and deaths, censuses even a year apart might
>    be quite different.

	As has been pointed out, SWC identified them as pre-war, so
emigrations and deaths make the discrepencies worse.  

>    3. What methods were used for these censuses?  I am unfamiliar with who
>    took each census and what methods were used.  If they used very
>    different methods (say one used tax rolls but the other used a head
>    count) then this may account for differences.

	Golly gee whiz.  Did you ask these same questions when the US
pouplation was announced?  Or do you suppose that all countries
conduct censuses in a manner to give a fales number?  

>    Your assertion was that the two lists should be the same and that there
>    is something strange in the 1.4 million discrepency.  Please go ahead
>    and actually do work to show the lists are the same.  Simply cutting
>    and pasting the lists is not such work.

	It doesn't take much.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 18:32:26 PDT 1996
Article: 267275 of talk.politics.guns
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: non-lethal weaons of the light variety
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:02:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	Anyone interested in this should go to alt.books.tom-clancy.
There is a person there claiming to be the real Tom Clancy who
also claims that the description of a light weapon causing
unconsciousness for 15 minutes but not blindness of course, just
as described Debt of Honor, not only exists but that he has one.


	The description of operation is even more preposterous, that it
works by affecting the trigeminal nerve which has no optical
sensor input.  

	But be warned -- his fans there implicitely believe he is the
real Tom Clancy so if you show any skepticism it is name calling
time.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 20:32:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41941 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:10:40 GMT
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>    Are you really saying that no person on the planet, not even a child,
>>>would scream in terror?

>>	You mean you would scream in terror.  In case you have never
>>noticed it, the scream reaction is a female trait.  Where have
>>you been all your life?  

>I was once in a situation where I thought I will inevitably die. I
>firmly thought that nobody can hear or even help me (I was locked in a
>crashed burning car), but I screamed for help. Is it so strange, of a
>female trait ? In fact, could you explain what is a female trait ? Did
>you ever see some human beeing dying ?

	I am certain that if the storyteller had wanted to say "screamed
for help" they were perfectly capable of saying exactly that.  If
they had wanted to say "screaming for help" they were also
capable of that.

	But you can read.  The "for help" is not added.  It reads simply
"screaming."  I would have thought it clear to you or anyone how
to read that.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 20:32:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41962 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:02:32 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

># You mean you would scream in terror.  In case you have never
># noticed it, the scream reaction is a female trait.  Where have
># you been all your life? 

>Of course, it is also a "child trait", and there were both women
>and children among the victims. But, is it a new Giwer rule that
>men will not scream with fear when they see they are going to die?

	Female children.  

>The man's insane.

	You are just plain ignorant of what you should have learned
growing up.  

	You should also have learned the claims are regularly that men
were screaming.  Ever hear a man "scream" from anything but pain?
Outside the horror movies that is.  

>## Our superscientist now claims that engine exhaust paralyzes the
>## nervous system instantly.  It is a wonder he does not collapse
>## when crossing the street near cars.

># It is reported in cyanide also.

>And HCN immediately paralyzes the nervous system? Moreover, if
>many people are present in a room, and Zyklon is thrown into it,
>it will take some time before the HCN reaches all of the room;
>so, some of the victims will survive long enough to see the others
>affected by the gas.

	I have read reports of 2-3 minutes up to 15-20 minutes.  I note
that you have defended those short times.  

	I note now that when you want a long time you argue for slow
dispersal.  

	And does seeing others die induce screaming in men?  

>An IQ of 163, the Giwer claims to have. 163, not a point less.

	A mere genius like yourself can not even keep track of your own
positions.  And the steam story is still a deliberate fabrication
used to convict at least one Nazi.  That does not inspire any
confidence in any of the other stories.  

	It indicates there is an interesting line of research.  Compare
the charges that lead to convictions of all of them and see if
there is any present belief that those events ever occured.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:40 PDT 1996
Article: 42005 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 02:22:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4p0tr5$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>Some other SS-men have testified about this very behavior of the
>>>victims.

>>	Of course they did.  Exactly what the interrogators wanted.
>>Obviously pretending to know that such a death was painful.  

>Oh my, are we going to start this troll again?  Every time the Giwer-troll
>is shown to be a liar, he drags out the old "they were all tortured"
>routine.  *Very* tired.

	I have not said they were all tortured.  I have also suggested
simple fabrication.  After all, we know there was positive proof
of steaming at Treblinka and of Katyn Woods.  And of course you
believe that evidence implicitely as no eyewitness would ever
lie.  

	What is curious is why you do not believe in steaming and Katyn
Woods when you know there was solid enough evidence and testimony
to support executions in those cases.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:41 PDT 1996
Article: 42018 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Nose-honker still at large
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:04:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4pae9b$rqc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	And there is still a holohugger who calls me a couple times a
>>week to do his pig imitation.  That is the level of holohuggers.

>    Excuse me good sir, but if you are still getting telephone harassment
>it is entirely your fault.  As you know it is a criminal offense, and you
>have publicly named the person doing it.  Anytime you want it to stop all
>you need do is call the police with your evidence and they will take it
>from there.

>    Um ... you _do_ have evidence, right?  I mean, a 163 IQ type would not
>be so stupid as do make a public statement which could be actionable as
>libel without having ironclad evidence, right?

	It is not an international crime and they are originating in
Canada from a person with root access to idirect which also hosts
(and rips off by their prices) almanac ne Nizkor.  

	But you know that.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:41 PDT 1996
Article: 42042 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:59:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4pb45g$iql@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4p7i20$i48@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>In article <4p32g9$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>	The building is NOT a hexagon.  ONLY the Hall of
>>>>>	Rememberance is.
>>>> 
>>>>>So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that
>>>>>proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish
>>>>>victims.  I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not count
>>>>>for anything.
>>>> 
>>>>	And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and it
>>>>purpose.  While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six remind
>>>>you of?  Which six are you remembering?  Or does it have no
>>>>meaning at all?  
>> 
>>>    From the specifications I read here (and we all know what is written in
>>>    a.r is not necessarily full and accurate), it seems as though there was
>>>    a design requirement put forward to symbolically make use of hexagons
>>>    in the design of the museum.  What I did not pull from what was written
>>>    here was just what the hexagon was supposed to symbolize.
>> 
>>	But you would rather ignore what it was clearly stated that it
>>was to symbolize.  

>    I am not ignoring anything.  I wrote what I recalled, but I am open ot
>    having information presented to me.  Please show me some source
>    material to indicate I am wrong - if I am wrong.

	It has been posted.  That is what started this thread.  Were you
not paying attention?  Isn't that what Dejanews is for?

>>>    If I were to guess, I would guess that it symbolizes the Star of David,
>>>    rather then the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust.
>> 
>>	We know that ONLY the six million [sic] Jews are to be referred
>>to as the holocaust and that the others are not according to the
>>SWC.

>>[below you say:] Sorry about that.  You lose again.  HS Holocaust MM and 
>>according to the SWC the term holocaust only refers to the 6 million Jews.

>    I am aware of where you got the SWC idea from (I agree that it is poor
>    wording on their choice and that they should refer to the full
>    Holocaust in their material).  

	It is not a poor choice of wording when the specifcally state the
non-jewish part is something else.  It is a deliberate
definition.  

Where does the the USHMM insist that the
>    Holocaust was only 6 million Jews?  (We are, after all, talking about
>    the design of the USHMM here, the SWC has nothing to do with it.)  You
>    are aware, of course, that the USHMM home page makes clear that they
>    are aware the Holocaust was 'six million Jews and millions of other
>    victims' (my paraphrase - I don't have the text available to me at the
>    moment.)

	We are talking about the "fast requirement" for the shape of the
Hall of Rememberance, remember?  

>>>    I would be interested in being pointed to the primary design documents 
>>>    (or secondary sources about them) if anyone here knows of where they
>>>    are located.
>> 
>>	I have the preponderance of evidence from original sources on
>>this one.  You ain't got jack.  

>    Of course I ain't got jack.  I just asked for references to your source
>    material and you didn't offer them.

	I have posted it.  You pretend you did not read it.  What is your
point?  

>    They may teach scientific methods like this at second rate undergrad
>    physics programs, but it isn't how science is done.

	More pretension on your part.  Just what do you think was the
first message in this thread?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:42 PDT 1996
Article: 42055 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 18:53:18 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>>>In article <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>	You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
>>>>did you?  They are, after all, on a mission from god.  

>>>    Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating
>>>    lack of honesty or integrity.  I am confident that you are full of hot
>>>    air and are unable to do so.

>>	Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not
>>provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture.  But
>>you read that.  It isn't in the message any longer because you
>>read the explicite example.  BTW, that demonstrates a lack of
>>both honesty and integrity.  

>>	It is the sort of thing your buddy Dahlman does. 

>How does your answer above  "provide an explicit example (and URL)
>from Nizkor demonstrating  lack of honesty or integrity." Danny
>doesn't care about this stupid feud with Dahlman. Answer his request.

	The request is superflous.  Leaving things out of a thread is
lacking in honesty and integrity.   You both know that is done.
There is no reason to play games with the rest of it.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:43 PDT 1996
Article: 42058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 04:13:13 GMT
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Greg Raven  wrote:

>Daniel Keren wrote:
>> 
>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> ## Giwer's problem is that there is no connection between what
>> ## he thinks and reality. He also thought that Zyklon-B
>> ## doesn't release HCN in a temperature of 20 C. He can test
>> ## his hypothesis by standing in a room which is 20 C hot,
>> ## and dropping Zyklon-B on the floor.
>> 
>> # I said no such thing.  So why the diversionary falsification?
>> 
>> Oh yes you did. Getting senile are you?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  From: mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
>>  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>  Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
>>  Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:22:39 GMT
>>  Organization: images incarnate
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>>  Message-ID: <4kru6f$k88@wi.combase.com>
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> ## There is more information to support the faster release rates;
>> ## I'll post it soon.
>> 
>> # Contact them quickly.  It not clear how there could be any release
>>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> # at a 20 degrees where HCN is still a liquid.
>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Mr. Keren is either incorrect or quoting Mr. Giwer out of context. According to the 
>quote of Mr. Giwer provided by Mr. Keren, Mr. Giwer says nothing about the 20 degree 
>figure being in Celsius. Perhaps in his statement he was hoping to imply that he was 
>writing of a temperature of 20 degrees Fahrenheit. 

>20 degrees C is hot. 20 degrees F is cold. Big difference.

	In fact, many months ago I posted some points on the outgassing
time required as a function of temperature.  Of course this is
out of context.  What else did you expect from a holohugger?  It
is the only way they can pretend among themselves to make points.

 






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:44 PDT 1996
Article: 42073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Do you trust your memory?
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 02:00:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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	For those who believe implicitely in the testimony of witnesses
consider this comparison of testimony to tapes of what the
testimony was regarding.  

	It only leaves the most diehard true believer defending holocaust
"eyewitness" testimony even if there is evidence they were in
fact eyewitnesses.  

      Something has recently been brought to my attention. The book Remembering and Forgetting; inquiries into the nature of memory by Edmund Blair Bolles, 1988, Walker Publishing Company. In particular Chapter 17, The Emotional Memory of John Dean. (For those who want to claim this is politics, this book is apolitical and this is simply an interesting test case.)
      For those who do not remember, John Dean was the most believed and most quoted witness at the Watergate hearings. Most of the impressions people have today of Watergate come from his testimony. It was clear, direct and compelling.
      Years later when transcripts of the Nixon tapes were made public it was taken as an opportunity to compare Dean's memories (which were down to which conversation on what day along with nearly verbatim recounting of the discussions) with the transcripts.
      The interesting thing is that not only was his testimony clear, direct and compelling, it was nearly 90% wrong. In comparing the two on one meeting we have on page 250 of the paperback edition...
      "Of the twenty-six separate assertions in Dean's testimony, fourteen have no historical basis, seven are badly distorted, and two are completely false. That leaves three correct assertions..."
      Perhaps some of us just might have a false impression of what happened in absense of those tapes. More interestingly, everyone who testified was dealing from memory (when they could "remember" anything) and that is what formed public opinion. There is no reason to believe the others were any different
From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:44 PDT 1996 Article: 42074 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer goofs again Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 19:20:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 182 Message-ID: <4pcjtr$9j1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <7JUN199611280821@cmi.arizona.edu> <4pam6h$5af@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <8JUN199610381488@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 2:22:35 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4pam6h$5af@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: > [history and context of this thread snipped. check out this thread in > DejaNews or reread previous posts in alt.revisionism for such context] >>> Simon Wiesenthal Center >> >>> 5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of >>> the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute? >> >>> Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust) >>> Austria 50,000 -- 27.0% 50,000 27.00% 185,185 >>> Italy 7,680 -- 17.3% 7,680 17.30% 44,393 >>> Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0% 28,900 44.00% 65,682 >>> Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1% 71,500 78.10% 91,549 >>> Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1% 78,150 66.10% 118,230 >>> Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1% 143,000 85.10% 168,038 >>> Bulgaria 0 -- 0.0% 0 >>> Luxembourg 1,950 -- 55.7% 1,950 55.70% 3,501 >>> Denmark 60 -- 0.7% 60 0.70% 8,571 >>> Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4% 100,000 71.40% 140,056 >>> Estonia 2,000 -- 44.4% 2,000 44.40% 4,505 >>> Norway 762 -- 44.8% 762 44.80% 1,701 >>> Finland 7 -- 0.3% 7 0.30% 2,333 >>> Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9% 3,000,000 90.90% 3,300,330 >>> France 77,320 -- 22.1% 77,320 22.10% 349,864 >>> Romania 287,000 -- 47.1% 287,000 57.10% 502,627 >>> Germany 141,500 -- 25.0% 141,500 25.00% 566,000 >>> Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8% 71,000 78.90% 89,987 >>> Greece 67,000 -- 86.6% 67,000 86.60% 77,367 >>> Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4% 1,100,000 36.40% 3,021,978 >>> Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0% 569,000 69.00% 824,638 >>> Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2% 63,300 81.20% 77,956 >> >>> 5,860,129 49.19% 9,644,491 >> >>> Wannsee Protocol >>> A. >>> Germany proper 131,800 131,800 >>> Austria 43,700 43,700 >>> Eastern territories 420,000 420,000 >>> General Government 2,284,000 2,284,000 >>> Bialystok 400,000 400,000 >>> Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200 74,200 >>> Estonia - free of Jews - >>> Latvia 3,500 3,500 >>> Lithuania 34,000 34,000 >>> Belgium 43,000 43,000 >>> Denmark 5,600 5,600 >>> France / occupied territory 165,000 165,000 >>> unoccupied territory 700,000 700,000 >>> Greece 69,600 68,600 >>> Netherlands 160,800 160,800 >>> Norway 1,300 1,300 >>> B. >>> Bulgaria 48,000 48,000 >>> England 330,000 330,000 >>> Finland 2,300 2,300 >>> Ireland 4,000 4,000 >>> Italy including Sardinia 58,000 58,000 >>> Albania 200 200 >>> Croatia 40,000 40,000 >>> Portugal 3,000 3,000 >>> Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000 342,000 >>> Sweden 8,000 8,000 >>> Switzerland 18,000 18,000 >>> Serbia 10,000 10,000 >>> Slovakia 88,000 88,000 >>> Spain 6,000 6,000 >>> Turkey (European portion) 55,500 55,500 >>> Hungary 742,800 742,800 >>> USSR 5,000,000 5,000,000 >>> Ukraine 2,994,684 0 >>> White Russia >>> excluding Bialystok 446,484 0 >> >>> Total over 11,000,000 11,291,300 >> >>> Good enough? >> >>>And my response to this now is: >> >>> No. You have done no analysis, you have merely printed out two lists. >>> If you insist they represent the same territories, piece them together >>> and show your work. I tried to do this and found it a mess. >> >> Specifically what problems did you find with both of these lists >>covering Europe? > The SWC list dos not cover all of Europe. It covers parts of Europe > and totals to about 9.6 million people (it may cover parts of Europe > not on the Wannsee list - Luxomberg, for example, is missing from > Wannsee). The Wannsee list includes several countries not on the SWC > list -- such as England, Ireland, Sweeden, Portugal, Switzerland, > Turkey, Croatia, and Albania, for example -- and totals about 11.3 > million. > Those extra countries may account for the difference. Different > borders may account for the difference. Different counting methods may > account for the difference. Different time periods for the counting > may account for the difference. Single gross errors (such as Wannsee > saying 700,000 Jews in France) may account for the difference. > You brought up this topic to support YOUR thesis. I want you to do the > work to address all of these issues. You haven't; and it appears you > won't. >>> Several issues remain for me: >> >>> 1. What territories do these two lists cover? >> >> Europe. > No, I just showed above that Wannsee includes portions of Europe not > included on SWC. And I showed one example of a country on SWC that is > not on Wannsee. Your one word answer above is insufficient to address > these anomolies. >>From my reading of the >>> lists it appears they cover two different, but largely overlapping >>> blocks of land. I see territories on one list (eg. England on the >>> Wannsee list) that are not on the other. >> >> Specifically which ones do you hold are different in other than >>name? > Specifically, you do the work. It is your thesis in question. > Generally, I have given you several examples above. >>You assert they are the same >>> territory. You said above, "Though the names are different it is only >>> in the grouping." Go ahead and match up the groupings to make this >>> clear, please. >> >> Good sir, if you are truly saying that the Wannsee Conference did >>not consider applying the solution to Poland then fine with me. > I have said no such thing. Thank you for you feeble strawman attempt. > It is evidence that you see your case crumbling around you. >>Until then you should consider the groupings as applying to all >>of Europe as it was clearly an solution for all of Europe. If >>you think they left out any part of Europe, what might that be? > Specifically, you do the work. It is your thesis in question. > Generally, I have given you several examples above. >>> 2. When were these censuses taken? As the population was rapidly >>> changing due to emigration and deaths, censuses even a year apart might >>> be quite different. >> >> As has been pointed out, SWC identified them as pre-war, so >>emigrations and deaths make the discrepencies worse. > Emigrations out of Europe would make them worse. Emigrations within > Europe would simply confuse matters. All the more reason for a more > thorough analysis than you have offered us. > And, you have failed to asnwer for us: where did the Nazis get their > numbers for Wannsee? Were these contemporary numbers, or did they > eminate from pre-war censuses? Is suspect that you have no idea the > answer to this question. >>> 3. What methods were used for these censuses? I am unfamiliar with who >>> took each census and what methods were used. If they used very >>> different methods (say one used tax rolls but the other used a head >>> count) then this may account for differences. >> >> Golly gee whiz. Did you ask these same questions when the US >>pouplation was announced? Or do you suppose that all countries >>conduct censuses in a manner to give a fales number? > This is a strawman; US census methods are not under discussion here. Nor are census figures under discussion here. If you are not willing to accept the prima facia validity of BOTH the SWC and the Wannsee number then we have nothing to discuss. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:45 PDT 1996 Article: 42078 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: RODEO CLOWNS Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 19:31:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <4pckhk$4lh@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31b9a722.1115526@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 2:33:08 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote: >In article <31b9a722.1115526@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom >moran) wrote: >> >> Most often than not, some revisionist will post something, a >> anti-revisionist will respond, the revisionist responds to the >> response, and another anti-revisionist will jump in to respond for the >> other. >> Like rodeo clowns, who run out to distract the bucking steer from >> the fallen rider, the brethren anti-deniers come out to respond for >> each other. >Nice stupid analogy. Perhaps a less strained one would be this: >An individual on trial makes a claim that is counter to the position of >the opposing side. The opposing side then produces a large number of >credible witnesses who refute this first individual. The issue is not one >of attempting to distract from the issue, but of attempting to establish >the truth or defend it from unsupported assault. Were they to provide evidence and witnesses you claim might be correct. The best that is given are quotes taken out of context of some book which were prior to that taken out of context by the author of the book. The problem with this approach is that anything can be asserted to be true. Fact: At Treblinka people were killed by steaming them alive. Proof: Pohl was convicted of it. Therefore there was steaming and got gassing at Treblinka. >Or how about this: a batter for one team steps up to the plate and tries >to score, while nine other people try to stop him from scoring. Are they >trying to distract him? No...that's just the way the game is played. A "team" effort? Every time I point that out I am told everyone here is acting as individual. So which is true? >Shalom (wink -- get it this time?) A pun on the english? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:46 PDT 1996 Article: 42081 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 02:06:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 62 Message-ID: <4pdbmn$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4p0otr$4ug@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p7h84$ci8@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4p7ov1$clv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4paakj$fma@adelbert10.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 9:08:23 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote: >In article <4p7ov1$clv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >> >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >>>>miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >> >>>>>Green never said that CO2 is only a Bronsted-Lewis acid. It is obvious >>>>>that the pH will be modified with the liquid. In our case the liquid >>>>>is indoubtly H2O. >> >>>> As the expert you are you know you never at any time specified >>>>dissociation in water. >> >>>In French, to be 'politically correct', we name 'hard of hearing' the >>>deafs. Then I will say that you are 'hard of understanding'. >> >>>Green said that CO2 was a Bronstedt acid when solved in water, >> >> So you agree with him that CO2 is the same as H2CO3? It is NOT >>disolved. It is a chemical reaction. It becomes something >>else. >As I feared my position was a bit too subtle for Mr. Giwer's >understanding. Too deceptive to be accepted. >> There was NO water mentioned in the original post. Any water >>present would already have been saturated by atmospheric CO2 in >>any event. >Does someone have the time to explain Henry's Law to this rather >ill-informed person? Why don't you? Or does not CO2 disolve in rain water and condensed humidity? Is there any other assertion you would like to pretend to make but not really make to deceive people? >> So you see what we have is one more attempt to divert the >>discussion away from the point of it in the first place which is >>that the Krakow Forensic report is worthless to this discussion >>as it failed to distinguish between never and once in one class >>of its samples. >> >> There is quite a bit of effort to make an issue of this report >>but unfortunately it has only one data point, making it >>worthless. >Mr. Giwer errs (intentionally?): the report contains numerous data >points. But only one, after any kind of number crunching you wish to apply, for places where the assumption is made that gas was used numerous times. You certainly need to learn something about analysis. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:47 PDT 1996 Article: 42083 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go? Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 01:46:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 191 Message-ID: <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot9a8$maj@kryten.awinc.com> <4oud8p$d1u@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4p13sf$aof@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4p4o9u$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 8:48:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4p4o9u$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >[snip] >> Another amazing description. Human ash constantly fell through >> BUT the burning coke did not fall through the same grate. How do >> you explain that? Why is it no one has found any bone crushing >> equipment below the ovens? Perhaps Hoess was describing the >> installation at Wolzek. >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, continuing to wallow in his self-imposed ignorance, >fails to realize that the furnaces used at Auschwitz did not burn coke in >the muffles, but in the "generators" which were located at the back of the >furnace and below the muffles. They were entirely seperate from the >muffle, only venting hot combustion gases into the muffle. The coke ash >was removed entirely seperate from the human remains. Then you should go to Nizkor and did up the picture of the ovens. You will see the backs of them are against the wall and the fireboxs to stoke them are in the front. And of from these pictures the source of air for combustion is in the front and there are no apparent chimney exhaust in the front, it is not clear how the heat from your supposed buring in the rear would have gotten to the oven rather than going directly up the flue. Perhaps you could explain that? Do you have a picture different from theirs and if so, why have you not sent it to them? You description is contrary to the Nizkor picture. You appear to be making this up as you go along. But then we still have the problem of finding the coke ashes which also appear to have vanished without a trace. As to why nobody has >found bone crushing equipment at the base of the furnaces is simple: there >were none there. You fellow holohugger claimed there were. Take it up with him, not me. >Ho"ss, in his memoirs, stated that: >"During the period when the fires were kept continiously burning without a >break, the ashes fell through the grates and were constantly removed and >crushed to powder. The ashes were taken to the Vistula [River], where they >immediately dissolved and drifted away. The ashes taken from the burning >pits near Bunker II and Crematory V were handled in the same way." (_Death >Dealer_, p.45.) Ashes are not soluable. They do not disolve in water. It has already been agreed that they will sink. You keep believing the fool who created these memoirs and you are going to continue to believe all kinds of impossible things. You will also note, this has nothing to do with the vanished bone crushing equipment. So both the coke ashes and the bone crushing equipment have vanished. >In addition: >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >June 7 [1944] >The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from >the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped >with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch >in size.** >** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon, >states during the H"oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are >taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars, >and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127). >Source: "Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945 / Danuta Czech. - 1st American ed. >(ISBN 0-8050-0938-8); p. 642. (Ref: APMO, IZ-13/89, Various Documents of >the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping (origional in BA >Koblenz). Evidence collected by the Soviet Union which proved the Nazis responsible for Katyn Woods. You will believe most anything. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Clearly, the bones were pulverized outside of the Kremas, and thus not in >or at the bottom of the furnaces. Tell that to your fellow holohugger. I thought it was ridiculous also. My only problem is separating the stories into degrees of ridiculousness. For example, are his grates and bone grinders more ridiculous than your disolving bone fragments that pass thour a 1 cm mesh? The former could have existed. The latter is clearly impossible. You know, that physical law stuff you have such a problem with. >> >>>Nevertheless, they often were employed for several purposes: as fill for >> >>>swamp lands, as thermal insulation between the walls of wooden buildings, >> >> >> >> Which would still be there to be founf but never has been. >> >> >In the same testimony Hoess describes how the ashes were put on lorries and >> >transported to the nearby river where they dissolved quickly... >> >> Dissolved? Is this special nazi chemistry? Sorry but all those >> tons are still on the banks of the river but no one has ever >> found them. >REALITY CHECK: Obviously, Giwer has forgotten that water naturally flows >from a location of higher gravitational potential energy to one of lower >gravitational potential energy. Giwer has also apparantly forgotton that >rivers consist of large amounts of water flowing from one potential energy >state to another. In the case of the Vistula River that meant it, ands the >ashes, eventually ended up in the Baltic Sea. You are neglecting to note that it was dumped in by the tons if there is any truth to the claims of the cremation rate. You are also failing to note that they were dumped on the banks by hand (unless you can back a truck into river mud and are using dump trucks and get it out a few feet.) The banks are where the water flow is slowest. >Giwer also seems to have chosen to interpet the ashes "dissolving" as >implying some kind of gross chemical reaction between Ca3(PO4)2 and H20 >rather than colloidal or coarse suspension. In fact, Ca3(PO4)2 itself >appears to not be very miscable in water. But then neither are silicates >and they, in the form of silt, suspend quite well in water, as can be seem >by the alluvial plains at the mouths of rivers. Obviously the word disolving means disolving. You have also giving the maxium size with the sieve size. And of course one can say it is over 50 years later. But at the time our Soviet allies did not think this bit of evidence worth collecting, any more than they collected any other evidence, as a nada, zilch. All they collect was Katyn Woods type testimony. >[snip] >> You are the one claiming bone ash is phosphate fertilizer, not >> me. Anyone with an education should know better than that. >REALITY CHECK: In truth, any person WITH an education knows how to find >out that bone ash is basically calcium phosphate and that calcium >phosphate has been used as a fertilizer. It is called looking in a >dictionary. Obviously, Giwer sorely lacks an education. To whit: >_The Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_: >bone ash - A white or creamy powder obtained by calcining bones. >Essentially tricalcium phospate with some calcium carbonate. It is a >characteristic constituent of English chinaware, mostly of bone china. >_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_: >bone ash - A white ash consisting primarily of tribasic calcium phosphate >obtained by burning bones in air; used in cleaning jewelry and in some >pottery. >calcium phosphate - 1. Any phosphate of calcium. 2. Any of the following >three calcium orthophosphates, all of which are white or colorless in pure >form: Ca(H2PO4)2 is used as a fertilizer, as a plastics stabilizer, and in >baking powder, and is also know as acid calcium phosphate, calcium >dihydrogen phosphate, monobasic calcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate; >CaHPO4 is uded in pharmaceuticals, animal feeds, and toothpastes, and is >also known as calcium hydrogen phosphate, dibasic calcium phosphate, >dicalcium orthophosphate, dicalcium phosphate; Ca3(PO4)2 is used as a >fertilizer, and is also known as tribasic calcium phosphate, tricalcium >phosphate. All very interesting but you will remember that our California chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. If you want it to be something else I would suggest you take it up with him, develop a consistent story, and get back to me. It is impossible for me to deal with multiple true truths at the same time. Apparently you holohuggers are able to believe many mutually exclusive things are true at the same time. I do not find that an enviable ability. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:47 PDT 1996 Article: 42084 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 02:10:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4pdbun$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4orht7$39v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p0jab$opp@shiva.usa.net> <4p0u1v$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4pd0va$u06@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 9:12:39 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article <4p0u1v$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) said: >> A scream does always introduce a dramatic interlude to a work of fiction. >>Are you really saying that YOU would in fact SCREAM IN TERROR of death? >>That you would GROAN when your nervous system was paralysized? >> You are a very strange person. >People scream when faced with death all the time. What planet is the >Giwer-troll inhabiting these days? Strangely that is not reported. For help, yes. In pain, yes. Not pure screaming. That is unreported for men. Of course, if you wish to post examples of it, I am certain we will all be interested. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:48 PDT 1996 Article: 42085 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Moran is winning Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 02:08:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4pdbra$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4pcian$2h7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8JUN199615031577@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 9:10:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4pcian$2h7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >> >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >>>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >> >>>>>In article <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor >>>>>>did you? They are, after all, on a mission from god. >> >>>>> Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating >>>>> lack of honesty or integrity. I am confident that you are full of hot >>>>> air and are unable to do so. >> >>>> Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not >>>>provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture. But >>>>you read that. It isn't in the message any longer because you >>>>read the explicite example. BTW, that demonstrates a lack of >>>>both honesty and integrity. >> >>>> It is the sort of thing your buddy Dahlman does. >> >>>How does your answer above "provide an explicit example (and URL) >>>from Nizkor demonstrating lack of honesty or integrity." Danny >>>doesn't care about this stupid feud with Dahlman. Answer his request. >> >> The request is superflous. Leaving things out of a thread is >>lacking in honesty and integrity. You both know that is done. >>There is no reason to play games with the rest of it. > I take it then that you are either unable to or simply refuse to back > up your assertion that Nizkor is dishonest and lacks integrity. > At least we understand the house of cards this assertion of yours is > built upon. So be it. There is no need to prove common knowledge. The saved files are selected by the name of the sender. They do not save by the thread. They lack honesty and integrity. That is fact. All the holohugger word games in the world are not going to give either honesty or integrity to Nizkor or any of its participants. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:49 PDT 1996 Article: 42096 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:45:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4pdhhg$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdbun$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdfm2$e7d@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 10:48:00 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> Strangely that is not reported. For help, yes. In pain, yes. >> Not pure screaming. That is unreported for men. >> >> Of course, if you wish to post examples of it, I am certain we >> will all be interested. > I already have. It happens. You are wrong. You have posted only from Katyn Woods and steaming to death quality sources. No rational person considers such sources credible. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:50 PDT 1996 Article: 42101 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 22:15:42 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4pcu6a$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4oolv4$jtv@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4p7ps5$lu0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pa970$fdk@adelbert10.Stanford.EDU> <4pb3td$iql@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pccbd$a4g@elaine16.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 5:17:46 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote: >In article <4pb3td$iql@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote: >> >>>In article <4p7ps5$lu0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >>>> >>>>>Rich Green wrote: >>>> >>>>>>I agree with >>>>>>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid. It is, however, a Lewis >>>>>>acide, but that's beside the point. >>>> >>>>>OK, I'll buy that. And after reading this far in the thread I agree with >>>>>you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is >>>>>about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is, >>>>>but..... >>>> >>>> Anything to prevent discussion that the Polish report is >>>>worthless. >> >>>Indeed Mr. Giwer has done everything in his power to avoid such >>>discussion. >> >> I have always raised the issue that it contains only one data >>point. What have you done to find a second data point? >Perhaps Mr. Giwer can state the value of this supposed one data point. >If there is only one data point he ought to be able to state what it >is. None. Of no value whatsoever. There is nothing to compare it to. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:51 PDT 1996 Article: 42111 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!uhog.mit.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Moran is winning Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:43:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4pdhdq$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <6JUN199611105022@cmi.arizona.edu> <4p7k0n$95a@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdgl9$72n@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 10:46:02 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4p7k0n$95a@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >>> Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating >>> lack of honesty or integrity. I am confident that you are full of hot >>> air and are unable to do so. >> >> Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not >>provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture. But >>you read that. It isn't in the message any longer because you >>read the explicite example. BTW, that demonstrates a lack of >>both honesty and integrity. > Excuse me, good sir, but how do you know that Moran is telling the >truth? I have looked at his and looked at mine. Why have you not done so? > You cannot know this, of course. Therefore you have, once again, >failed to support your claim. Sorry but entire thread are not in the links. Therefore it is dishonest and has no integrity nor do any of its contributors. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:51 PDT 1996 Article: 42112 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Let's misrepresent to make a story Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:12:40 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 79 Message-ID: <4pdfj7$p28@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p2aov$lu@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4p56qg$88a@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pabc7$rkq@access5.digex.net> <4pb15u$d64@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pde78$nbg@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 10:14:47 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4pb15u$d64@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >> >>>In article <4p56qg$88a@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article <4p2aov$lu@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, >>>>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>>>> Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is >>>>>>in support of previous "answers" of mass gassings. But we all >>>>>>know that mass gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee >>>>>>Protocol. >>>> >>>>> And we all know that mass _gassing_ is not mentioned in the Wiesenthal >>>>>Center text above, either. So it is not clear what point you are trying >>>>>to make here. >>>> >>>> I originally simply made the point that there were about 1.5 >>>>million unaccounted for people. I was simply pointing out how >>>>many others have apparently vanished without a trace. >> >>> This in no way addresses your claim that the SWC implied the Wannsee >>>minutes supported mass _gassing_. Please explain, using commonly accepted >>>meanings of English words, how the SWC's words imply that mass gassings >>>are discussed in the Wannsee Protocol. >> >>> Your attempt to pretend you were saying something other than what you >>>were clearly saying is rather pathetic. >> >> If you had ever bothered to read the previous answers you would >>know what I am talking about. I will be happy to post all 36 of >>them to you if you can not look at them on your own. > So proximity of text always implies that a logical connection is being >asserted? Of course not. Coherency of the message does. There is no deviation for the message. That is today's true truth about how to interpret text? Of >cousre you seem to get upset when people apply it to your text. Just >another one of your contradictory true truths, I guess. Of course you have never read them and you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about but don't let that stop you. >>>> What does WILL BE mean in holospeak? >> >>> It means just what you think it means. However, in my text which you >>>dishonestly cut out, I pointed out the reasons why I conclude that the >>>only honest interpretation is that the "will be" was a proposal only, not >>>an announcement of settled policy. The "will be" text was immediately >>>preceded with a tentative-sounding "theoretically," and followed by people >>>talking as if the issue was still open for discussion. Why should someone >>>_propose_ implementing a policy which has already been _definitely_ >>>adopted for implementation? >> >>> Now, do you suppose you can deal with my arguments rather than >>>dishonestly cutting them out and only looking at one line in the text? AS >>>YOU KNOW, you took the words "will be" out of context, carefully ignoring >>>all the "proposed" and "possibilities" around it. >> >>> And according to Matt Giwer, only a lying holohugger would do >>>something like that. >> >> Right on there. You "will be" assassinated is merely a proposal >>and of no legal consequence. > Indeed, it can be, in the right context. As I said, you took the text >in the Wannsee Protocol out of context. Thank you for proving my point >for me. Yes, you are very foolish. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:52 PDT 1996 Article: 42113 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!uhog.mit.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer is not only a censor but a hypocritical one Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:40:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 130 Message-ID: <4pdh80$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pcll8$5te@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pdbbm$7ne@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 10:42:56 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4pcll8$5te@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >> >>>In article <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >>>Giwer) wrote: >> >>>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> But isn't the Nizkor leaders >>>> > like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to >>>> > shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with >>>> > pressures? >>>> >>>> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of >>>> Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here. >>>> That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also >>>> called a conspiracy. >> >>>Oh, my. Giwer is whining again. Tsk tsk. [queue itty-bitty violins.] Take >>>it to alt.whine.whine.whine, Giwer. >> >> Statement of fact, little one. There was in fact harrassment of >>a service provider by the holohuggers. > One could also make a case that there was harrassment of two service >providers by the Giwer: Internet Direct and Volant Turnpike. Giwer had >Rack Jite's web pages censored _before_ he was bounced from Combase. Just >thought I'd point that out. I did not harrass idirect in any manner. Anything that happened to Dahlman's page had only peripherally to do with me in that I pointed it out to Combase. I prefer to leave Davy-girl in the dark as to where he screwed up. >>It is good to see that >>you do not deny it. It is another example of the lack of >>integrity of holohuggers. They are quite dispicable, you >>realize. > And what shall we say of Matt Giwer's censorship efforts? There were none whatsoever. But you know that. >>>Giwer, I think if he wishes to be taken as somrthing else besides the >>>whiney asshole he is, needs to _prove_ there was "harrassment" intended to >>>get Combase to drop him. Giwer can't because there wasn't. >> >> Prove intentions? What a strange person you are. You >>holohuggers did it and you know what you did. >> >>In fact, as I >>>understand it, Combase had ALREADY decided to give Giwer the boot BEFORE >>>people here started complaining about his spamming a.r. with the Wannsee >>>protocol. >> >> Your understanding is completely false. Who would have lied to >>you like that? Or is this your own personally created lie? > This should be easy to settle. Please provide the article or email >you have with the earliest date complaining about your spamming a.r. We >can then compare it with the date on the email indicating that you would >soon be an ex-user of Combase. The burden of proof is yours. Sorry about that. > Why did Combase give Mr. Giwer the boot, I wonder? Did it have >anything to do with a mailbombing of users at Internet Direct? There was no mailbombing in any manner whatsoever by any accepted definition of the term. But you know that. >>>That's not called censorship, it called Combase exercising it rights to >>>get rid of an asshole who is detrimental to their business goals. Neither >>>was complaining to Combase about Giwer being an asshole a conspiracy. It >>>was merely people exercising _their_ rights in expressing their >>>dissatisfaction with Combase in allowing an asshole like Giwer to abuse >>>the Internet. >> >> That is what is called harrassment. As you folks were making up >>the complaint just like Chuckles Feree. > What were you doing with Volant Turnpike, Mr. Giwer? I posted that here. You do remember but you will lie about it. >> So tell me, just how many holohuggers were involved in this >>harrassment campaign? > You tell me. You are the one painting with a very broad brush. As broad as I wish since there were several messages in the "couldn't happen to a niced guy" category from self-identified holohuggers and ZERO condemnations. But you know that. >>>But of course Giwer, being a misanthropic asshole, would probably not >>>understand such a normal perspective on netiquette. >> >> Save of course that holohuggers still do harrass anyone related >>to people they do not want to hear from. In this case that >>includes service providers and family. > But let us not forget that Rack Jite was the first person here >censored. And it was Matt Giwer who conducted the harrassment campaign >against Volant Turnpike to kill his web pages. No he was not censored. You are believing him. If you are not believing him, you are lying. The latter is expected. There was no campaign. I made a simple request based upon the law. In the end that had nothing to do with their decision. As usual Dahlman misrepresented what happened. But you know he does that. >> Holohuggers are truly dispicable people. >> >>>> Who else would do it be a holohugger? > Matt Giwer. Ask Rack Jite and Volant Turnpike. Or retrieve Giwer's >own posts from DejaNews where he even boasted of his successful >censorship. It seems once more Mr. Giwer, contrary to his claim, plays a >game that applies to only one person. There are no such posts. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:53 PDT 1996 Article: 42119 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer goofs again Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 02:25:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 221 Message-ID: <4pdcrk$r2s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <7JUN199611280821@cmi.arizona.edu> <4pam6h$5af@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <8JUN199610381488@cmi.arizona.edu> <4pcjtr$9j1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <8JUN199615182662@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 9:28:04 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4pcjtr$9j1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >> >>>In article <4pam6h$5af@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >> >>> [history and context of this thread snipped. check out this thread in >>> DejaNews or reread previous posts in alt.revisionism for such context] >> >>>>> Simon Wiesenthal Center >>>> >>>>> 5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of >>>>> the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute? >>>> >>>>> Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust) >>>>> Austria 50,000 -- 27.0% 50,000 27.00% 185,185 >>>>> Italy 7,680 -- 17.3% 7,680 17.30% 44,393 >>>>> Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0% 28,900 44.00% 65,682 >>>>> Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1% 71,500 78.10% 91,549 >>>>> Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1% 78,150 66.10% 118,230 >>>>> Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1% 143,000 85.10% 168,038 >>>>> Bulgaria 0 -- 0.0% 0 >>>>> Luxembourg 1,950 -- 55.7% 1,950 55.70% 3,501 >>>>> Denmark 60 -- 0.7% 60 0.70% 8,571 >>>>> Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4% 100,000 71.40% 140,056 >>>>> Estonia 2,000 -- 44.4% 2,000 44.40% 4,505 >>>>> Norway 762 -- 44.8% 762 44.80% 1,701 >>>>> Finland 7 -- 0.3% 7 0.30% 2,333 >>>>> Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9% 3,000,000 90.90% 3,300,330 >>>>> France 77,320 -- 22.1% 77,320 22.10% 349,864 >>>>> Romania 287,000 -- 47.1% 287,000 57.10% 502,627 >>>>> Germany 141,500 -- 25.0% 141,500 25.00% 566,000 >>>>> Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8% 71,000 78.90% 89,987 >>>>> Greece 67,000 -- 86.6% 67,000 86.60% 77,367 >>>>> Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4% 1,100,000 36.40% 3,021,978 >>>>> Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0% 569,000 69.00% 824,638 >>>>> Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2% 63,300 81.20% 77,956 >>>> >>>>> 5,860,129 49.19% 9,644,491 >>>> >>>>> Wannsee Protocol >>>>> A. >>>>> Germany proper 131,800 131,800 >>>>> Austria 43,700 43,700 >>>>> Eastern territories 420,000 420,000 >>>>> General Government 2,284,000 2,284,000 >>>>> Bialystok 400,000 400,000 >>>>> Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200 74,200 >>>>> Estonia - free of Jews - >>>>> Latvia 3,500 3,500 >>>>> Lithuania 34,000 34,000 >>>>> Belgium 43,000 43,000 >>>>> Denmark 5,600 5,600 >>>>> France / occupied territory 165,000 165,000 >>>>> unoccupied territory 700,000 700,000 >>>>> Greece 69,600 68,600 >>>>> Netherlands 160,800 160,800 >>>>> Norway 1,300 1,300 >>>>> B. >>>>> Bulgaria 48,000 48,000 >>>>> England 330,000 330,000 >>>>> Finland 2,300 2,300 >>>>> Ireland 4,000 4,000 >>>>> Italy including Sardinia 58,000 58,000 >>>>> Albania 200 200 >>>>> Croatia 40,000 40,000 >>>>> Portugal 3,000 3,000 >>>>> Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000 342,000 >>>>> Sweden 8,000 8,000 >>>>> Switzerland 18,000 18,000 >>>>> Serbia 10,000 10,000 >>>>> Slovakia 88,000 88,000 >>>>> Spain 6,000 6,000 >>>>> Turkey (European portion) 55,500 55,500 >>>>> Hungary 742,800 742,800 >>>>> USSR 5,000,000 5,000,000 >>>>> Ukraine 2,994,684 0 >>>>> White Russia >>>>> excluding Bialystok 446,484 0 >>>> >>>>> Total over 11,000,000 11,291,300 >>>> >>>>> Good enough? >>>> >>>>>And my response to this now is: >>>> >>>>> No. You have done no analysis, you have merely printed out two lists. >>>>> If you insist they represent the same territories, piece them together >>>>> and show your work. I tried to do this and found it a mess. >>>> >>>> Specifically what problems did you find with both of these lists >>>>covering Europe? >> >>> The SWC list dos not cover all of Europe. It covers parts of Europe >>> and totals to about 9.6 million people (it may cover parts of Europe >>> not on the Wannsee list - Luxomberg, for example, is missing from >>> Wannsee). The Wannsee list includes several countries not on the SWC >>> list -- such as England, Ireland, Sweeden, Portugal, Switzerland, >>> Turkey, Croatia, and Albania, for example -- and totals about 11.3 >>> million. >> >>> Those extra countries may account for the difference. Different >>> borders may account for the difference. Different counting methods may >>> account for the difference. Different time periods for the counting >>> may account for the difference. Single gross errors (such as Wannsee >>> saying 700,000 Jews in France) may account for the difference. >> >>> You brought up this topic to support YOUR thesis. I want you to do the >>> work to address all of these issues. You haven't; and it appears you >>> won't. >> >>>>> Several issues remain for me: >>>> >>>>> 1. What territories do these two lists cover? >>>> >>>> Europe. >> >>> No, I just showed above that Wannsee includes portions of Europe not >>> included on SWC. And I showed one example of a country on SWC that is >>> not on Wannsee. Your one word answer above is insufficient to address >>> these anomolies. >> >>>>From my reading of the >>>>> lists it appears they cover two different, but largely overlapping >>>>> blocks of land. I see territories on one list (eg. England on the >>>>> Wannsee list) that are not on the other. >>>> >>>> Specifically which ones do you hold are different in other than >>>>name? >> >>> Specifically, you do the work. It is your thesis in question. >>> Generally, I have given you several examples above. >> >>>>You assert they are the same >>>>> territory. You said above, "Though the names are different it is only >>>>> in the grouping." Go ahead and match up the groupings to make this >>>>> clear, please. >>>> >>>> Good sir, if you are truly saying that the Wannsee Conference did >>>>not consider applying the solution to Poland then fine with me. >> >>> I have said no such thing. Thank you for you feeble strawman attempt. >>> It is evidence that you see your case crumbling around you. >> >>>>Until then you should consider the groupings as applying to all >>>>of Europe as it was clearly an solution for all of Europe. If >>>>you think they left out any part of Europe, what might that be? >> >>> Specifically, you do the work. It is your thesis in question. >>> Generally, I have given you several examples above. >> >>>>> 2. When were these censuses taken? As the population was rapidly >>>>> changing due to emigration and deaths, censuses even a year apart might >>>>> be quite different. >>>> >>>> As has been pointed out, SWC identified them as pre-war, so >>>>emigrations and deaths make the discrepencies worse. >> >>> Emigrations out of Europe would make them worse. Emigrations within >>> Europe would simply confuse matters. All the more reason for a more >>> thorough analysis than you have offered us. >> >>> And, you have failed to answer for us: where did the Nazis get their >>> numbers for Wannsee? Were these contemporary numbers, or did they >>> eminate from pre-war censuses? I suspect that you have no idea the >>> answer to this question. >> >>>>> 3. What methods were used for these censuses? I am unfamiliar with who >>>>> took each census and what methods were used. If they used very >>>>> different methods (say one used tax rolls but the other used a head >>>>> count) then this may account for differences. >>>> >>>> Golly gee whiz. Did you ask these same questions when the US >>>>pouplation was announced? Or do you suppose that all countries >>>>conduct censuses in a manner to give a fales number? >> >>> This is a strawman; US census methods are not under discussion here. >> >> Nor are census figures under discussion here. If you are not >>willing to accept the prima facia validity of BOTH the SWC and >>the Wannsee number then we have nothing to discuss. > Your original post on the subject stated thus: > "Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the > Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the > holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private > holocaust by country and by percentage in that country. This of > course permits us to calculate the total number of in those > countries, presumably at the end of the war. That gives us 9.6 > million. > "We can also look at the numbers in the Wannsee Protocol and find > in January 1942, excluding Britain and Ireland from the total, 11M > Jews in these same countries. > "Thus we have about 1.4 million unaccounted for. > "One wonders how these unaccounted for were separated from those > who died without records -- if we are talking about the "no > records kept" version of the story." > Yale and I have both demonstrated and suggested to you several problems > in the derivation of these numbers which may account for some or all of > the discrepency. If you are to now state that "If you are not willing > to accept the prima facia validity of BOTH the SWC and the Wannsee > number then we have nothing to discuss" then we have nothing to > discuss. You are indulging in asking questions only about the Wannsee without even being curious about the source of the SWC numbers. You are engaging in selective questioning. That is why we have nothing to discuss. It is clear both are in question or neither is in question. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:54 PDT 1996 Article: 42125 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent False Witness Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:00:42 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 97 Message-ID: <4pdesq$p66@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pd7b1$ccu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 10:02:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >>The gassing lie was spread by the Americans. (note 3) The lie that Jews >Mr. Faurisson neglects SS testimony about the gas chambers. >Mr. Faurisson neglects Nazi bureaucratic memos about "special >treatment," which, according to Mr. Faurisson, meant "feed >them champaign." Sure it did. And of course there was such testimony about Katyn Woods. And you believe that too. >>were killed by boiling water or steam (specifically at Treblinka) was >>spread by the Poles. (note 4) The electrocution lie was spread by the >>Soviets.n (note 5) >The steam stories came from members of the Polish resistance, >who could not get close enough to the Aktion Reinhard >(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/reinhard/) to see exactly what >it was they observed coming out of the buildings. They >assumed, incorrectly, that it was steam. Mr. Faurisson does >not want you to know that. You folks keep repeating this story but you know that none but a kangaroo court would convict a man of steaming people based upon the statements of people who could not get close enough. And we know that Pohl was convicted of steaming. When are you folks going to deal with this? >>The fire lie is of undetermined origin. It is in a sense as old as war >>propaganda or hate propaganda. In his memoir, Night, which is a version of >>his earlier Yiddish testimony, Wiesel reports that at Auschwitz there was >>one flaming ditch for the adults and another one for babies. He writes: >>(note 6) >[snip] >Mr. Wiesel's observations were quite correct. During the time >that Hungarian Jews were being gassed, the crematoria were >broken down from the strain, and open pits were utilized to >dispose of the bodies. >Mr. Faurisson knows this, of course. Excuse me, but how would Wiesel, a man being shipped from camp to camp ever know about these details? Not that they were under a strain but that there were separate "flaming ditches" for adults and babies. Or is it that you really believe there was such a separation? But then you also wish to ignore his claim that people were thrown in while alive without any indication of any preliminary gassing that failed (after all those years of experience.) It is quite amazing that you would continue to defend these stories but quite understandable that you would want to overlook the wholely incredible details of his stories. >>Later, I learn from a witness that, for month after month, the ground >>never stopped trembling; and that, from time to time, geysers of blood >>spurted from it. >>These words did not slip from their author in a moment of frenzy: first, >>he wrote them, then some unspecified number of times (but at least once) >>he had to reread them in the proofs; finally, his words were translated >>into various languages, as is everything this author writes. >Why does Mr. Faurisson find this description so surprising? >Has Mr. Faurisson ever killed 30,000 Jews, and covered 30,000 >bodies with earth, and then sat around and observed the result >as they began to decompose? >No, he has not. Geysers of BLOOD, boy. Jewish blood does not coagulate? After death, blood coagulates. That is a known fact. 30,000 buried bodies do not have to be witnessed to know that there were no geysers fo blood. Think!!! Reality does not change just to make Wiesel an honest reporter. >Mr. Faurisson should be ashamed of himself, and Mr. Slepokura >as well, for this weak attempt at defaming someone fortunate >enough to survive Auschwitz. Over a million did not. Mr. >Slepokura should return to Jew-baiting, which is his usual >practice here on the net, and leave the Holocaust to those who >wish to learn about it, rather than mock its victims. The geysers of blood is a clear lie. He also has a unique claim of separte flaming pits and that people were thrown into them alive. But he was the first to formally apply the word holocaust to this live burning. Try giving it up. Wiesel could have had a career as a writer of horror stories had it not been for that war. You are selectively rejecting that "testimony" of an "eyewitness." That is not kosher. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:55 PDT 1996 Article: 42129 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing' Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 01:05:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 98 Message-ID: <4pd85c$lqk@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p5rdk$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p79gm$32g@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p840p$qr1@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tpi$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4pab30$qgh@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pctrb$23e@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 8:07:56 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>In fact the more likely is both CO and lack of O2, with NOx added. A >>>low rate of O2 is lethal. An high rate of CO is lethal. NOx is lethal >>>even at low rates (400ppm). The mix is lethal, and it is difficult to >>>say what was the principal cause. The lack of O2 could be sufficient >>>by itself (or NOx, aso). The pink color of the bodies in some cases >>>could only be an indication that the CO was the principal cause, but >>>the CO is far more toxic when the rate of O2 is low, then O2 is >>>involved too. >> You are not following the thread. >In the opposite, I'm closely folllowing it. >> It started as an observation that there were four causes of death >>at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution >>and vacuum chambers. It also turns out there was a conviction >>for steaming so they were not merely mistaken reports they were >>rather clear lies. >Your statements are from the former testimonies, from several hundred >meters aways whithout any way to be more accurate. That is either clear nonsense OR it was possible to get a conviction based upon witnesses hundreds of yards away. Either way, it does not pass any muster in any court but a kangaroo one. Once there has been a conviction on the steaming nonsense then it is either a rejection of the "evidence" or a rejection of the court. There is nothing in between. The facts remains >that several thousands of victims (often 12000 in one day) were going >to Treblinka with Polish drivers, and never return; we have the >testimonies of the Polish, of the escaped inmates, and of the SS. And we have such evidence, also gathered by the Soviets, that proved the Germans massacred Polish officers in Katyn Woods. You are not making a credible case pointing to such a source of evidence. If >you want a more accurate description of the gass chambers, take >Gerstein and Pfannenstiel testimonies. Or more oviously Stangl, >Suchomel aso. Gerstein said that Pfannenstiel was with him in >Treblinka, but Pfannenstiel denied it as the testimony of Gerstein >involved him. It is amazing that a denier like Rassinier can't get >anything other than '15 mn at most' from Pfannenstiel (since judged) >for the gassing time, in a private interview. >Obviuously, the method is always a diesel exhaust. OBVIOUSLY there was conviction on steaming. And then you folks still need to address electrocution and suffocation. >> He jumped onto the steaming one by quoting from a report showing >>that diesels could exhaust oil vapor when run extremely rich and >>thus would produce a white exhaust that could be confused with >>steam from a distance. >> At that level the cause of death would be suffocation from oil >>covered lungs. >I don't remain about any post about suffocation caused by oil. Can you >quote this post ? Go to dejanews and find it. That is the latest mantra. That is what I posted. >> However, even the original explanation had major problems >>primarily due to the flammability of oil vapors and it condensing >>inside the building making it highly flammable. >It's a fanciful claim. Can you give the flamming heat for these oils ? You missed all of that also? It is called an open flame. It is called an engine backfire. Do you have some sort of problem with a match setting fire to oil? Do you have a problem with the existence of engine backfires? You have not been following very closely. And we still have to get to the electrocution and vacuum chamber stories. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:55 PDT 1996 Article: 42130 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars... Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 22:14:44 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 83 Message-ID: <4pcu4g$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p9ihh$656@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 5:16:48 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4p9ihh$656@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote: >[snip] >> Claim 1: >> >> In article <4ev93t$cv1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) >> wrote: >> "I have been into the so-called gaschambers of Crema II and III. There are >> no remains of any porous pillars. The structure's roof is built of >> poured-in-place concrete. The pattern of the woodforms is visible in the >> concrete, as are holes for fitings and conduit. Anything which was >> attached to the ceiling would have left holes or fittings. There are none >> around the 3 "vents" through which the pellets were poured and the porous >> pillars attached." >> >> >Response to Claim 1: >> >> >As to the alleged lack of any retaining fixtures in the ceiling >> >for the Zyklon B introduction columns, this would be in accordance >> >with the fact that the columns passed _through_ the roof of the >> >L.Keller and was likley surrounded by a "chimney," much like that >> >found in the reconstruction ofthe Zyklon B vents of Krema I >> >(_Technique_, p.150), which would firmly hold the top of the column >> >in place. >> >> >The fixed portion of the introduction column was approximately 3 meters >> >in length. If you were to study the Huta drawings 109/13A and 109/14A of >> >21/9/43 (_Technique_, pp.322-325), you would see the inside >dimension >> >for the floor to ceiling height of L.Keller 1 to be 2.40 meters and that >> >the roof of L.Keller 1 is about 26 cm thick. This would imply that the >> >fixed portion of the introduction columns protruded about 40 cm above the >> >concrete roof of L.Keller 1. This is in general accord with Piper's >> >description that says: "...they passed through openenings in the >> >ceiling, ending outside as little chimneys closed with a concrete cover >> >equipped with two handles." (_Anatomy_, p.167.) >> >> Response to the response. >> >> So your response is that the "little chimneys" were not attached >> to the roof in a manner that would leave any trace? >And where did I say that, Mr. Allen? >> Nor was the pillar attached to the roof and/or ceiling in any manner which >> would leave a mark? >Yes, this is very likely, as the Zyklon B introduction columns passed >through the ceiling and would not have needed to have been anchored to the >ceiling with bolts as you have claimed. Do you disagree, Mr. Allen? Do you >have evidence that the Zyklon B introduction columns were indeed anchored >to the ceiling as you have claimed they must have been? >> This does not seem likely to me. Remember the pillar was >> supposed to withstand the pressure of hundreds of stampeding >> persons. >Mr. Allen, the top of the Zyklon B introduction columns passing through >the ceiling would have been held in place, and denied any lateral >movement, BY THE CONCRETE CEILING. Do you have a problem visualizing this >simple spatial relationship? Would more drawings help you to correctly >understand why a column passing through a hole in the roof would be >constrained in lateral movements? One begins to wonder at the reasons for >your obtuseness, Mr. Allen.... You know when you folks were talking about these things being an insert into hollow concret pillars (February's truely true description) you had marginally fewer problems. Now with these free standing and removal columns all people had to do was reach up and keep them from being put in. Or if they were already inside, all the had to do was raise them and push them back out. Not much more than a stopgap measure of course but it certainly could have been used as a scene in a comedic version of Schindlers' list. Sort of a Charlie Chaplin putting it in and it pops right back out. Of course it will be hard to get facial expression through the gas mask. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:56 PDT 1996 Article: 42136 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: For Giwer How Zyclon B Kills Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 19:59:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4pcm7f$lqj@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31B967E6.15ED@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 1:01:51 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Chuck Ferree wrote: >After almost a year of wasted time reading all the reasons Giwer can >come up with, as to why Zyclon B couldn't possibly have been used by >the Nazis to gas people. I went to our university and inquired. This >is what they told me. The professor is a Phd. So listen up, Giwer, and >let's cut out all the nonsense you've been spounting. >"Zyclone B was used to gas humans all over Europe." The professor >said. Here's how it works: In quantum gravity, the spacetime manifold >ceases to exist as an objective physical reality; and the foundational >conceptual catigories of prior science discovered that due to the >highly corrosive nature of the material, direct contact reaction with >ferrous-based, zinc-protected aqueous transportation vessels, the >intended action is contraindicted. Therefore, death comes rather >quickly unless the intent is otherwise. >O.K. Giwer, this from a man who studied and teaches at one of the >finest universities in the world, with the possible exception of >University of Arizona at Tucson. At least you have learned how to parody the idea of Zyklon B in that time. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:57 PDT 1996 Article: 42137 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 19:50:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4pcll8$5te@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 12:52:08 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >> >> >> But isn't the Nizkor leaders >> > like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to >> > shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with >> > pressures? >> >> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of >> Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here. >> That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also >> called a conspiracy. >Oh, my. Giwer is whining again. Tsk tsk. [queue itty-bitty violins.] Take >it to alt.whine.whine.whine, Giwer. Statement of fact, little one. There was in fact harrassment of a service provider by the holohuggers. It is good to see that you do not deny it. It is another example of the lack of integrity of holohuggers. They are quite dispicable, you realize. >Giwer, I think if he wishes to be taken as somrthing else besides the >whiney asshole he is, needs to _prove_ there was "harrassment" intended to >get Combase to drop him. Giwer can't because there wasn't. Prove intentions? What a strange person you are. You holohuggers did it and you know what you did. In fact, as I >understand it, Combase had ALREADY decided to give Giwer the boot BEFORE >people here started complaining about his spamming a.r. with the Wannsee >protocol. Your understanding is completely false. Who would have lied to you like that? Or is this your own personally created lie? >That's not called censorship, it called Combase exercising it rights to >get rid of an asshole who is detrimental to their business goals. Neither >was complaining to Combase about Giwer being an asshole a conspiracy. It >was merely people exercising _their_ rights in expressing their >dissatisfaction with Combase in allowing an asshole like Giwer to abuse >the Internet. That is what is called harrassment. As you folks were making up the complaint just like Chuckles Feree. So tell me, just how many holohuggers were involved in this harrassment campaign? >But of course Giwer, being a misanthropic asshole, would probably not >understand such a normal perspective on netiquette. Save of course that holohuggers still do harrass anyone related to people they do not want to hear from. In this case that includes service providers and family. Holohuggers are truly dispicable people. >> Who else would do it be a holohugger? >Why Giwer's hero, Ernst (UFO) Zundel, of course. He has called for, among >other things, the banning of _Schindler's List_. What a guy, a Nazi to the >core. What does he have to do with the subject of holohugger harrassment? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:58 PDT 1996 Article: 42156 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book? Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 04:31:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 73 Message-ID: <4pdk7i$eta@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pd85c$lqk@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4pdg3v$e7d@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 9:33:54 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> That is either clear nonsense OR it was possible to get a >> conviction based upon witnesses hundreds of yards away. Either >> way, it does not pass any muster in any court but a kangaroo one. >> > Please tell us about this conviction. You seem tobe the only person >who has ever heard of it. I think you you made it up. Excuse me but when I first posted regarding the grounds for Pohl's conviction there was no disagreement with my statement. It was posted with the Nuremberg referenences. But now the traditional Gang of Six approach to denying reality shows up yet again. But the best you folks ever do is third hand quotes from your favorite horror novels. BTW: I have just come across a major (far beyond copyright violation) section from a CD-ROM on the holocaust. I do not have enough on it yet to deal with it. What strikes me about so far is that its 270k on Pohl and codefendents direct from Nuremberg do not mention gassing or steaming once or any variation thereof. Nor does it mention the grounds for conviction so it is very incomplete. When I get more I will post it. >> Once there has been a conviction on the steaming nonsense then it >> is either a rejection of the "evidence" or a rejection of the >> court. There is nothing in between. > Unless, of course, the conviction is in your imagination. "I say so" is >not, by the way, a sufficient answer. Please quote from the information >or indictment and judgment of the court conviciting him. Excuse me. Would PLEASE post the charges under which he was convicted? You have the access to all the information. It is certainly something you know about to be challenging me. From the CD-ROM file I am more than willing to accept he was convicted of running concentration camps under inhumane conditions but they fail to mention gassing. In fact the details of the inhumane conditions (of course all Soviet generated) again beg the question of how so many survived with gassing. It is clearly a miracle so many survived without it. >> And we have such evidence, also gathered by the Soviets, that >> proved the Germans massacred Polish officers in Katyn Woods. You >> are not making a credible case pointing to such a source of >> evidence. > Which ws rejected by the IMT. Apparently your argument is that >because the IMT rejected evidence that was not credible the IMT cannot be >trusted. Only an idiot like you would make such an argument. Not even Moran >will buy that crap. But it was not rejected, rather accepted. >> OBVIOUSLY there was conviction on steaming. > That nobody knows about but you. Please tell us where the IMT came >to that conclusion in its judgment. It should not be hard. I have already posted it. Go take a look at Dejanews. That is where all the never existed posts are supposed to be located these days. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:58 PDT 1996 Article: 42157 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!philabs!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer goofs again Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 04:36:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4pdkgo$eta@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdcrk$r2s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pdhqf$e7d@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 9:38:48 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> You are engaging in selective questioning. > You are engaging in gross stupidity. A person who can not master a killfile has very little room to talk. >> That is why we have nothing to discuss. It is clear both are in >> question or neither is in question. > It is clear that they were referring to different defined populations at a >different defined period of time in a different defined geographic area. They are >independent calculations. Only Matt Giwer would try to compare them as >absolute numbers describing the same circumstances. As there is no questioning of holocaust numbers in the depth that what I have posted is questioned (are historians demographers?) then all we are seeing is clearly unquestioning acceptance of pro-gassing numbers by those who love the idea of their being the only survivor of a gassed family. But you know that. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:24:59 PDT 1996 Article: 42166 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 03:48:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4pdhmu$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdcl4$r2s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pdfi3$e7d@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 10:50:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> What is curious is why you do not believe in steaming and Katyn >> Woods when you know there was solid enough evidence and testimony >> to support executions in those cases. > No one was ever convicted or executed for Katyn Woods. Of course not. But you believed for many years the Nazis did it based upon the integrity and honesty of the Soviet Union as did most all of the world that gave a damn. ALL of the testimony from the Soviet liberated territories comes >from the same Soviets that brought us both Katyn Woods and STEAMING. The source has no credibility, period. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:00 PDT 1996 Article: 42221 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Moran is winning Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:03:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 48 Message-ID: <4pesou$aaa@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4pdbra$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <8JUN199622193747@cmi.arizona.edu> <4pdps3$t7h@atlas.uniserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:05:50 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote: >In <8JUN199622193747@cmi.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu >(Danny) wrote: >In an attempt to show the Giwer-troll the error of his Moranic ways: >>In article <4pdbra$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >[snip] >>> >>> That is fact. All the holohugger word games in the world are not >>>going to give either honesty or integrity to Nizkor or any of its >>>participants. >> No, it is not fact. It is conjecture on your part. Now, if you assert >> that they lack an effective cataloging system and search engine, I will >> agree with that (and risk the wratch of Nizkor in doing so.) >So you agree with that, do you Mr. Mittleman? That you should choose >to publicly court the "wratch" of Nizkor could well be construed as >the height of "inpompetence" (if I might be so bold as to borrow your >wonderful word) :>) It is not the worst website around. The sites that are made with the providers software are worse. But those are the only ones that are worse. >But to >> presume that this particular shortcoming has anything to do with lack >> of integrity or honesty is a logical leap which you have not adequately >> defended (if you have defended it at all.) >> But, methinks you are merely trolling at this point. >And methinks you are quite correct about that! You know you have a piece of shit site. You even claimed that regex was a search engine. If you folks would simply stop being ripped off by idirect you could do much better. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:01 PDT 1996 Article: 42222 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Moran is winning Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:06:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4pesus$aaa@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4p4pa2$34e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <6JUN199611105022@cmi.arizona.edu> <4p7k0n$95a@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdgl9$72n@access1.digex.net> <4pdhdq$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4pdq82$t88@atlas.uniserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:09:00 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote: >In <4pdhdq$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >[snip] >>> Excuse me, good sir, but how do you know that Moran is telling the >>>truth? >> I have looked at his and looked at mine. Why have you not done >>so? >Then it is obvious that the Giwer-troll _only_ looked, he did not >read. Lets us cut to the chase. Entire threads are not carried. That is your deliberate decision. That makes you folks no better than Dahlman. No honesty and no integrity. >>> You cannot know this, of course. Therefore you have, once again, >>>failed to support your claim. >> >> Sorry but entire thread are not in the links. Therefore it is >>dishonest and has no integrity nor do any of its contributors. >Such outstanding articulation and awesome application of reason and >logic. Tortably devoid of truth, but then we have come to expect no >less from the Giwer-troll. >Amazing, simply amazing! Post a link with contains all of the entire threads and you will have a basis for saying you are better than Dahlman. Failing to do that, you are no better than him. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:02 PDT 1996 Article: 42227 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Warning to FBI Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:10:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4pet5r$aaa@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p1lm0$bvc@news2.texas.net> <92ozq6ink1i.fsf@krusty.eecs.umich.edu> <4pdjg3$q3p@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:12:43 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.activism:52638 alt.conspiracy:57086 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22161 alt.politics.white-power:31705 alt.radio.talk:11164 alt.revisionism:42227 alt.skinheads:27394 Henry Ayre wrote: >>And I'm sure they'll get it when they're tried for check forgery and fraud. >> >>Patriots, my ass. Criminal check forging scum. >> >> >I have read a very interesting account of what you call "check forging" >and it appears that the checks are at least as valid as the Federal >Reserve notes we use every day. Valid and uncontested liens have been >levied against individuals and corporations for various offenses (whether >imaginary or real, it doesn't matter if the lien is uncontested), and >these liens are pledged as collateral for the drafts issued. There is a >certain amount of learned opinion that all this has been done according >to the laws of the land and that the drafts are as legal as any other >hypothecated money. They cannot be any more risky than the billions of >dollars of derivatives sold by Wall Street to all and sundry, including >Orange County, California. H. Ayre. And if they in fact did exactly and only what you have said and have a decent lawyer who sticks to exactly that, it would appear they will walk. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:02 PDT 1996 Article: 42228 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:15:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4peteh$aaa@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4oj8nj$frs@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4ol045$agn@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4p3vmj$kge@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4p4to4$aq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pdl1r$a5i@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:17:21 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Even our California chemist has agreed it is not an acid. Now >: you come back and claim it is an acid. One of you two is unaware >: that carbon dioxide and carbonic acid are different molecules. >Once again, Myshkin is suffering either from an inability to read or >from an inability to tell the truth. What Richard Green said was that >if you limit yourself to the Bronsted-Lowry definition of acids, then >CO2 [obviously] can only be an acid in aqueous (or other protic) solution. >He agreed that using a more general definition of acid -- which, indeed, >has proven too subtle for you -- CO2 gas is an acid too. I gave an >example of a chemical reaction (CaO + CO2 -> CaCO3) in which CO2 *gas* >acts as an acid, And you actually expect people to believe that reaction will occur at STP without an intermediary. Of course, given the level of scientific knowledge here, it will sell. You two are running a great con game here but you are taking advantage of the rubes. and no one, neither Richard Green nor you, has given >any indication that I was wrong to call CO2 gas an acid in the above >equation. In fact, if you actually read what Green said (something beyond >your IQ capacity, I see), he agrees with me that CO2 gas is an acid. Again you misuse purported credentials in an attempt to preserve holoworship. >BTW, when are you going to give us your translation of that Hitler quote? Who ever said that I would? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:03 PDT 1996 Article: 42231 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:37:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4peuoh$cbn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31b1c798.13508858@news.pacificnet.net> <4oue52$n4q@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31b2ee9b.6549861@news.pacificnet.net> <4pem2u$3lka@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 11:39:45 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article <31b2ee9b.6549861@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom >moran) said: >> There aren't going to be any "next several decades" to the >>Holocaust discussion. The time is drawing nigh. You say, admit, you tend >>to "downplay" controversial elements of the story and are accused of >>focusing on irrelevance. Could be, I don't read all your stuff. As far as >>I can tell, 99% of the story chapters are controversial, open to great >>doubts. You may like to divert from these to mundane points, I don't know >>for sure, but it is a tactic people use to avoid the gist of a debate. >>Barring this, they usually resort to something like your next paragraph. >Let me tell you a secret, Moron. You scum are never going to win any >debate. Want to know why? It's so damned simple that maybe even you can >understand it. (1) You are wrong. The Holocaust did happen. (2) The likes >of you couldn't convince a bitch in heat to get laid. You are the dregs >left behind when Danny-boy Gannon, Craven Raven and the other losers ran >away--ran away from the free and open debate they claim to want. Subs like >you and the Giwer-troll are the replacements. See--you guys are the >second-rate losers. You are the runnerup losers. As we all know, the SWC definition of the purely Jewish holocaust has nothing whatsoever to do with gassing. You are attempting to piss up a rope and getting a mouthful. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:04 PDT 1996 Article: 42233 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go? Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:41:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 58 Message-ID: <4pev0g$cbn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot9a8$maj@kryten.awinc.com> <4p4o9u$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdirg$hp8@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 11:44:00 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>>bone ash - A white ash consisting primarily of tribasic calcium phosphate >>>obtained by burning bones in air; used in cleaning jewelry and in some >>>pottery. >> >>>calcium phosphate - 1. Any phosphate of calcium. 2. Any of the following >>>three calcium orthophosphates, all of which are white or colorless in pure >>>form: Ca(H2PO4)2 is used as a fertilizer, as a plastics stabilizer, and in >>>baking powder, and is also know as acid calcium phosphate, calcium >>>dihydrogen phosphate, monobasic calcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate; >>>CaHPO4 is uded in pharmaceuticals, animal feeds, and toothpastes, and is >>>also known as calcium hydrogen phosphate, dibasic calcium phosphate, >>>dicalcium orthophosphate, dicalcium phosphate; Ca3(PO4)2 is used as a >>>fertilizer, and is also known as tribasic calcium phosphate, tricalcium >>>phosphate. >> >> All very interesting but you will remember that our California >>chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the >>bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. >Mr. Giwer cannot provide an example of me stating that bone ash is a >"trioxide" (Perhaps IUPAC should be replaced with IGIWPAC). Nor did I claim I could. It is clearly not a positive statement. >He can certainly find evidence of me stating that the calcium in bones >is in its second oxidation state and therefore does not burn. Mr. Giwer >was not aware of that fact; he should thank me for educating him. >Rather, he will predictably engage in argument ad hominem. Which of course confirms that you did state it was all CaOx or whatever and by implication there was no phosphate involved and therefore it is not a fertilizer. Thank you for applying your professional credentials to shooting down that story. The exercise is good for you. >Perhaps that's because... >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt Sorry but you are one of the holoworshippers lacking integrity and honesty. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 10:25:05 PDT 1996 Article: 42234 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Brit rabbi admits 6,000,000 is fraud Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:47:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4pevb8$4kc@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ouoeg$1lji@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4p1arc$ubi@sol.caps.maine.edu> <4p3opo$m1@news.ios.com> <4p4r07$2v8@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pem1t$1i3e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:49:44 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:76716 alt.revisionism:42234 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article <4p4r07$2v8@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) said: >> Conspiracy? How dare you? Who would conspire ... save those who at >>Nizkor who edit the records they keep on people here. Save for those here >>who conspired to use that mindless mantra about me. >Looks the Giwer-troll is annoyed again because Nizkor has archived his >rubbish, and it is there for all to see, demonstarting what a pathetic lying >scumbag he is. The only thing that annoys me is that they are denying that their method of archiving is dishonest and unethical. It is clearly done for the sole purpose of deception. Which of course is all that can be expected of holoworhippers. >> Too bad the email conspiracy was mentioned by one of them in a post else >>they would be claiming it is spontanious. >Ain't life a bitch? Another Giwer-troll invention. But of course it occurred and certainly Nizkor deleted all mention of it as is the wont of the dishonest. >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, You were unable to determine this on your own, little one. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 13:23:40 PDT 1996 Article: 22170 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 18:35:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4pf5mh$gjt@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pf13g$rh5@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 1:38:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31719 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22170 alt.discrimination:48245 alt.revisionism:42259 alt.skinheads:27409 rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote: >In article <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, >Les Griswold wrote: >>>>(snip - about Eldridge Cleaver's _Soul on Ice_, wherein he expounds about >>>>the virtues of raping White women, as a means of "getting back at" the >>>>White man) >>> >>> So what? You can read considerably more white supremacist pamphlets which >>> expound upon the virtues of murdering nonwhites, Catholics, homosexuals and >>> Jews. >> >>Really? Name one. >> >>Les > _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald. Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction. Why not name one next time around? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 13:25:59 PDT 1996 Article: 31719 of alt.politics.white-power Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 18:35:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4pf5mh$gjt@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pf13g$rh5@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 1:38:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31719 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22170 alt.discrimination:48245 alt.revisionism:42259 alt.skinheads:27409 rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote: >In article <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, >Les Griswold wrote: >>>>(snip - about Eldridge Cleaver's _Soul on Ice_, wherein he expounds about >>>>the virtues of raping White women, as a means of "getting back at" the >>>>White man) >>> >>> So what? You can read considerably more white supremacist pamphlets which >>> expound upon the virtues of murdering nonwhites, Catholics, homosexuals and >>> Jews. >> >>Really? Name one. >> >>Les > _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald. Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction. Why not name one next time around? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:42 PDT 1996 Article: 42237 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:51:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 66 Message-ID: <4pevia$4kc@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4p7ov1$clv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4paakj$fma@adelbert10.Stanford.EDU> <4pdbmn$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pe1c6$i8b@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:53:30 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4pdbmn$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>>>>Green said that CO2 was a Bronstedt acid when solved in water, >>>> >>>> So you agree with him that CO2 is the same as H2CO3? It is NOT >>>>disolved. It is a chemical reaction. It becomes something >>>>else. >> >>>As I feared my position was a bit too subtle for Mr. Giwer's >>>understanding. >> >> Too deceptive to be accepted. >Mr. Giwer can present no evidence of deception on my part. You have given enough evidence on your own. There is nothing I can add to it. >>>> There was NO water mentioned in the original post. Any water >>>>present would already have been saturated by atmospheric CO2 in >>>>any event. >> >>>Does someone have the time to explain Henry's Law to this rather >>>ill-informed person? >> >> Why don't you? Or does not CO2 disolve in rain water and >>condensed humidity? Is there any other assertion you would like >>to pretend to make but not really make to deceive people? >Perhaps Mr. giwer can show us his scientific literacy by answering a >simple question. If I increase the partial pressure of CO2, will the >amount of CO2 dissolved in water increase, decrease, or stay the same? No, we will stick to the subject at hand. You attempts at diversion are not of interest, holohugger. >>>> So you see what we have is one more attempt to divert the >>>>discussion away from the point of it in the first place which is >>>>that the Krakow Forensic report is worthless to this discussion >>>>as it failed to distinguish between never and once in one class >>>>of its samples. >>>> >>>> There is quite a bit of effort to make an issue of this report >>>>but unfortunately it has only one data point, making it >>>>worthless. >> >>>Mr. Giwer errs (intentionally?): the report contains numerous data >>>points. >> >> But only one, after any kind of number crunching you wish to >>apply, for places where the assumption is made that gas was used >>numerous times. You certainly need to learn something about >>analysis. >Perhaps Mr. giwer can teach me about analysis by providing the one >value. If you need to be taught that, you are lying about your credentials. Of course your statement will play to the scientific rubes here. They will not know how fundamental such knowledge is in scientific fields. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:43 PDT 1996 Article: 42238 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:52:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4pevka$4kc@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4oolv4$jtv@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4pb3td$iql@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pccbd$a4g@elaine16.Stanford.EDU> <4pcu6a$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4pdjqj$hqj@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:54:34 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4pcu6a$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote: >> >>>In article <4pb3td$iql@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>>redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article <4p7ps5$lu0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >>>>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>>>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Rich Green wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>I agree with >>>>>>>>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid. It is, however, a Lewis >>>>>>>>acide, but that's beside the point. >>>>>> >>>>>>>OK, I'll buy that. And after reading this far in the thread I agree with >>>>>>>you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is >>>>>>>about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is, >>>>>>>but..... >>>>>> >>>>>> Anything to prevent discussion that the Polish report is >>>>>>worthless. >>>> >>>>>Indeed Mr. Giwer has done everything in his power to avoid such >>>>>discussion. >>>> >>>> I have always raised the issue that it contains only one data >>>>point. What have you done to find a second data point? >> >>>Perhaps Mr. Giwer can state the value of this supposed one data point. >>>If there is only one data point he ought to be able to state what it >>>is. >> >> None. Of no value whatsoever. There is nothing to compare it >>to. >Mr. Giwer deliberately misinterprets the meaning of the word value. >That's because Mr. Giwer cannot come up with what this one data point >is. The reason he cannot do so is that he knows that there are many >more than one data point. If he responds to this message in any other >way than by writing the numerical value of the supposed one data point, >it should be understood as an admission that he was not being >completely straightforward. You are playing to the ignorant rubes, as always. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:44 PDT 1996 Article: 42243 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 17:11:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 59 Message-ID: <4pf0o6$d3n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4nlrc2$agn@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4p7egc$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31BA59CC.1A03@kaiwan.com> <4pe105$i75@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 10:13:42 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <31BA59CC.1A03@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven wrote: >>Daniel Keren wrote: >>> >>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>> >>> ## Giwer's problem is that there is no connection between what >>> ## he thinks and reality. He also thought that Zyklon-B >>> ## doesn't release HCN in a temperature of 20 C. He can test >>> ## his hypothesis by standing in a room which is 20 C hot, >>> ## and dropping Zyklon-B on the floor. >>> >>> # I said no such thing. So why the diversionary falsification? >>> >>> Oh yes you did. Getting senile are you? >>> >>> >>> >>> From: mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) >>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism >>> Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent >>> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:22:39 GMT >>> Organization: images incarnate >>> Lines: 60 >>> Message-ID: <4kru6f$k88@wi.combase.com> >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> ## There is more information to support the faster release rates; >>> ## I'll post it soon. >>> >>> # Contact them quickly. It not clear how there could be any release >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> # at a 20 degrees where HCN is still a liquid. >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>Mr. Keren is either incorrect or quoting Mr. Giwer out of context. According to the >>quote of Mr. Giwer provided by Mr. Keren, Mr. Giwer says nothing about the 20 degree >>figure being in Celsius. Perhaps in his statement he was hoping to imply that he was >>writing of a temperature of 20 degrees Fahrenheit. >> >>20 degrees C is hot. 20 degrees F is cold. Big difference. >Unfortunately for Mr. Raven, he is wrong on both counts. It was clear >that Mr. Giwer meant 20 C because he tried to argue that the boiling >point of HCN (25.7 C) somehow prevented it form evaporating at 20 C. >Additionally, even if Mr. Giwer meant 20 F, he is still wrong. The >vapor pressure of HCN at 20 F is just less than 200 Torr, or about >260,000 ppm. HCN is toxic at 300 ppm, but Mr. Raven knew that. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that toxicity is a product of quantity and time. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:45 PDT 1996 Article: 42245 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: A real picture of a "crema" Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 17:46:41 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 6 Message-ID: <4pf2q4$dp8@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 12:48:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?holocaust/gifs/h.crema.gif or of a dog for that matter. A true rohrshach test for holoworshippers. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:45 PDT 1996 Article: 42248 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: No more skin heads from Mars Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 17:50:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4pf317$dp8@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31bade5d.3629608@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 12:52:39 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > Today, I checked out more of Nizkor. This time around I was going >to check the skinhead file. Previously Nizkor held extensive listing >of alleged skinhead groups around the world. Skin heads from the U.S., >Canada, Europe, Ukriane and maybe Mars, I don't know, I never studied >it that close. Now the whole thing seems to have disappeared, leaving >only a short little commitment. Going by what is left, skinheads in >the U.S. are a major problem. Nizkor has their membership at 3, 5 or >10 thousand, take your pick. Using the 10 thousand figure we can see >there would be 1 skinhead for every 25,000 people in the U.S. >ATTENTION; Beware of the skinhead menace. They are everywhere. The reason we don't see them is that they spend most of their time under the beds of Nizkorites. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:46 PDT 1996 Article: 42259 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 18:35:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4pf5mh$gjt@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pf13g$rh5@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 1:38:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31719 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22170 alt.discrimination:48245 alt.revisionism:42259 alt.skinheads:27409 rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote: >In article <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, >Les Griswold wrote: >>>>(snip - about Eldridge Cleaver's _Soul on Ice_, wherein he expounds about >>>>the virtues of raping White women, as a means of "getting back at" the >>>>White man) >>> >>> So what? You can read considerably more white supremacist pamphlets which >>> expound upon the virtues of murdering nonwhites, Catholics, homosexuals and >>> Jews. >> >>Really? Name one. >> >>Les > _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald. Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction. Why not name one next time around? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 14:57:47 PDT 1996 Article: 42269 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Stein fantasized again Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 19:33:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 131 Message-ID: <4pf92k$s8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot8sk$3i@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4p22h8$ce2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p5nvc$bsq@access4.digex.net> <4p61qi$s63@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pf3jq$k99@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 2:35:48 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4p61qi$s63@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >> You really should contact the SWC and get an answer before you >>continue. > Did you contact them before you claimed that they were trying to say >the Wannsee Document was evidence for _gassing_? Why should I? I made no such claim. But you know that. Did you contact them and >ask if they were using the same sources as the Wannsee Protocol? Of >course not. You pretend that nobody but you is allowed to interpret the >words of others, and that anyone who offers an interpretation different >from yours is lying or ignorant. > Sorry, you are being dishonest. How can this show I am dishonest when you have based your statement upon something I did not say? >>> The biggest discrepancy I see is for the Soviet Union. Due to the >>>closed nature of the Soviet regime, its official atheist stance, and the >>>soft squishy roundness of that 5,000,000 figure, I would imagine that >>>population statistics are softest for that country and a good part of the >>>1.4 million difference (and perhaps nearly all) is that the Nazis and the >>>SWC simply had different population sources which did not agree. >> >> But as you know EITHER religion or birth counts for Jews so >>atheist is meaningless. > Although it is true that the Nazi definition of Jewish was slightly >broader than normal, I do not think that this explains all or even most of >the 1.4 million. (By the way, it really should be 1.3 million. The SWC >does not cover Turkey, and you apparently are so innumerate that you think >that you can divide by zero. Look at Bulgaria again.) Just where did I divide by zero? > Not every country keeps statistics on religion. Therefore it is >necessary to estimate. When there are marches in DC, the Park Police and >the DC police sometimes come up with different estimates. Always come up with different estimates. > When you become intelligent and honest enough to be capable of dealing >with the idea that many of the figures were estimates, and that different >people can produce different estimates, let me know. Then of course there are only estimates for Birkenau which can be equally erronious, sort of like the million man march numbers of Farrakhan. Your Birkenau numbers come from reputed historians who were neither demographers or census takers. Until then, stop >trying to misrepresent my argument. It is dishonest. I am misrepresenting you? When the first thing you post in this message is something I did not say? >> And as you have read the "true" SWC number for the SU is LOWER >>than the Wannsee number. So we are still presented with the same >>problem. You would have the SU number higher because of atheism >>while SWC puts them much lower. > I did not offer that as the explanation. Is your problem illiteracy >or dishonesty? Inquiring minds want to know. > However, even if I were offering such an explanation, you have it >backwards. The Nazis would have counted more people as Jews due to their >racial definition which is not shared by any Jews except the Reform >movement. Therefore the SWC number _would_ be lower than the Wannsee >number if the definition of "Jew" were a reason for the discrepancy. But they were in no position to do any counting at the time. > Maybe I had better type this very slowly. The Nazis defined Jews by >race. If the SWC defined them by religion, that would indeed be a lower >number. If you do not understand that, you are not qualified to deliver >any comments about critical thinking or statistical analysis. I was referring to the Russian numbers. I would presume the SWC knows what it takes to be a Jew or that you folks don't. >>> So we compare the numbers. Whee. So there is a disagreement, by ca. >>>1.4 million, as to how many Jews were in Europe "prewar" (whatever year it >>>is that the SWC is figuring from) and what the Nazis thought were in >>>Europe in whatever also-unstated baseline year they were figuring from in >>>areas where they had not already made their own accounts and population >>>"adjustments." (Note that Estonia is listed as free of Jews in the >>>Wannsee document.) Very good. Now, what is this supposed to prove except >>>that the population figures were estimates, something I already knew? >> >> The only problem is that your argument is completely revisionist >>in that you are making corrections in the wrong direction. > Please answer the question. What is this supposed to prove except >that the population figures were estimates, something I already knew? >Nothing, of course. I have never claimed there were any reasonable numbers for Birkenau. So what is your problem? I am simply making that point obvious, even to you. > There is no problem with my argument. I was merely pointing out the >problem with your argument. Remember, you originally said the SWC figures >were "presumably" after the war. This proves you are an illiterate, >because the SWC explicitly said "prewar." There was no need to presume >anything. Very good, they are pre-war. Emigration and natural death accounts for the gassing claims. > But clearly due to your illiterate misreading, you were offering the >SWC 9.6 million figure as a _postwar_ figure. Thus you clearly believed >that the difference between the 11 million Wannsee figure and the >(supposedly) postwar SWC figure was evidence that only 1.4 million Jews >were killed. Not in the least. I was simply pointing out the difference in the numbers and such errors could account for all the gassing. > No doubt you will lie some more and deny this. Holoworshippers should be the last to make an issue of that. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 16:59:22 PDT 1996 Article: 42274 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 15:38:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4per92$9cv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4o8psp$ni3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4okq55$6qu@shiva.usa.net> <4omb7c$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4ondls$3d9@access5.digex.net> <4or0t2$c2m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pdn26$a5i@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 10:40:18 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Mark Van Alstine (mvanalst@rbi.com) wrote: >: > As you appear to need the help. The "almost certainly expected" >: > refers to at least trace production of HCN. The "probably" >: > refers to the quantity produced. In case you have missed the >: > good old days completely one banks a fire by shutting down the >: > air supply. >: Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.... >Backpedal? That's a polite way of putting it. I think it might be more >accurate to say "outright lie." Myshkin's original contention was that >the crematoria would be putting out significant amounts of HCN, and as >"evidence" he cited the "fact" that HCN was commercially obtained as >a component of coke oven flue gases. Now, if these coke ovens were >putting out "trace" quantities of HCN, it seems extremely unlikely that >they would be a particularly economical commercial source of HCN. In >any case, now that he is cornered on the issue of where HCN comes from, >he really has no choice except to lie about what he said originally. >Admitting his mistake is not something of which Myshkin is normally >capable. Get this straight once and for all Sgt. Schultz. You have no idea what I originally said. However, I have recounted it accurately. One of your fellow holocaust worshippers has even posted the original. You read it and you would know I recounted it accurately. It is unclear why someone would pervert professional credentials in the manner you are doing. You should contribute to Nizkor. You fit right in. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:54 PDT 1996 Article: 42307 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news.mathworks.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:03:41 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 79 Message-ID: <4pfot6$ikl@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot9a8$maj@kryten.awinc.com> <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdirg$hp8@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> <4pev0g$cbn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4pffse$jdk@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 7:05:58 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42307 sci.chem:37069 rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4pev0g$cbn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >> >>>In article <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >> >>>>>bone ash - A white ash consisting primarily of tribasic calcium phosphate >>>>>obtained by burning bones in air; used in cleaning jewelry and in some >>>>>pottery. >>>> >>>>>calcium phosphate - 1. Any phosphate of calcium. 2. Any of the following >>>>>three calcium orthophosphates, all of which are white or colorless in pure >>>>>form: Ca(H2PO4)2 is used as a fertilizer, as a plastics stabilizer, and in >>>>>baking powder, and is also know as acid calcium phosphate, calcium >>>>>dihydrogen phosphate, monobasic calcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate; >>>>>CaHPO4 is uded in pharmaceuticals, animal feeds, and toothpastes, and is >>>>>also known as calcium hydrogen phosphate, dibasic calcium phosphate, >>>>>dicalcium orthophosphate, dicalcium phosphate; Ca3(PO4)2 is used as a >>>>>fertilizer, and is also known as tribasic calcium phosphate, tricalcium >>>>>phosphate. >>>> >>>> All very interesting but you will remember that our California >>>>chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the >>>>bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. >> >>>Mr. Giwer cannot provide an example of me stating that bone ash is a >>>"trioxide" (Perhaps IUPAC should be replaced with IGIWPAC). >> >> Nor did I claim I could. It is clearly not a positive statement. >Fair enough, but Mr. giwer was in error; I made no such claim. >>>He can certainly find evidence of me stating that the calcium in bones >>>is in its second oxidation state and therefore does not burn. Mr. Giwer >>>was not aware of that fact; he should thank me for educating him. >>>Rather, he will predictably engage in argument ad hominem. >> >> Which of course confirms that you did state it was all CaOx or >>whatever and by implication there was no phosphate involved and >>therefore it is not a fertilizer. Thank you for applying your >>professional credentials to shooting down that story. The >>exercise is good for you. >Mr. Giwer's ignorance of freshman level oxidation-reduction chemisty has >already been noted. The calcium in Ca3(PO4)2 is clearly in its second >oxidation state, or does Mr. Giwer disagree? Perhaps he can tell us the >oxidation state of such calcium if he does disagree. I would not disagree with that but I would then state that this molecule would burn. So we are back where we started with you playing another game. >>>Perhaps that's because... >> >>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >>>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >>>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >>>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >>>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >>>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >>>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >>>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >>>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >> >>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt >> >> Sorry but you are one of the holoworshippers lacking integrity >>and honesty. >As I predicted Mr. Giwer engages in ad hominem attacks rather than >address the issue. And your games, most of all. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:56 PDT 1996 Article: 42320 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 23:37:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4pfnbo$nn8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4orht7$39v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p0jab$opp@shiva.usa.net> <4p0u1v$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p627v$egq@access4.digex.net> <4p7em6$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tpq$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4pad10$4cu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pfk97$495@dub-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 4:39:36 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >>>I was once in a situation where I thought I will inevitably die. I >>>firmly thought that nobody can hear or even help me (I was locked in a >>>crashed burning car), but I screamed for help. Is it so strange, of a >>>female trait ? In fact, could you explain what is a female trait ? Did >>>you ever see some human beeing dying ? >> I am certain that if the storyteller had wanted to say "screamed >>for help" they were perfectly capable of saying exactly that. If >>they had wanted to say "screaming for help" they were also >>capable of that. >Well, I became one 'storyteller'. In French we scream 'Au secours' (In >English 'Help'). Salva me is also popular in some circles. >> But you can read. The "for help" is not added. It reads simply >>"screaming." I would have thought it clear to you or anyone how >>to read that. >I you doubt, I said Help. Then, please answer, what is a female trait' >? For help is not unique. Screaming is. But you know that. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:57 PDT 1996 Article: 42330 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: How missing Jews do we have to account for? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:21:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 12 Message-ID: <4pfpug$bn3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 7:23:44 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 It appears we only need to come up with some 1.5 million or so Jews or at least an explanation of where they went to wrap up most of this Soviet created gassing and steaming stories. Is that about the right number or would someone like to propose another number? This is not a total number but rather the gassing and steaming only number. Anyone who wishes can throw electrocution, shooting and vacuum chambers into the mix if they want. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:58 PDT 1996 Article: 42332 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Amazing nonsense if you look for it. Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 01:06:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 198 Message-ID: <4pfsje$pkv@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 8:09:02 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Nizkor really does keep some amazing materials on file. It is a treasure trove of "curious" material. Take for example the following. ===== "The thrust of the Russian case on the concentration camps ===== Bingo. the RUSSIAN (read Soviet) case. ===== came from witnesses. Severina Shmaglerskaya who had spent three years in Auschwitz told of seeing women sent to work within minutes of giving birth, of babies taken away, of children driven to gas chambers. No defense counsel wanted to cross-examine her. ===== That in itself is curious as the more damaging a witness is, the more important the crossexamination. Whoever was accused certainly was not provided with competent counsel. ===== Samuel Rajzman, had been taken from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka. He survived because he could speak Hebrew, French, Russian, Polish and German; he was needed to act as an interpreter. He described the arrival at Treblinka station. It looked like a station. There were signs saying 'restaurant,' 'ticket office.' There was even an arrivals and departures board but all departing trains left Treblinka empty. For on the platform prisoners were stripped, women were shaved so that their hair could be used for mattresses. ===== Damn. And we just learned it was doormats. But no one has turned up a human hair stuffed mattress either. ===== Then they walked up Himmelfahrt Street, the 'Journey to Heaven', to the gas chambers. The whole procedure up to then had taken ten minutes. ===== A trainload of people's heads shaved in ten minutes. That is even better than the cremation times. ===== Rajzman believed they killed between 10,000 and 12,000 people every day at Treblinka. There were plans to increase the number of ovens from ten to tenty-five to keep up with the output of the gas chambers. ===== Ovens. Damn. Where are all of those open pit BBQs we have been hearing about? Rather where are the ovens? Just another case of can't see the ovens for the trees so to speak. ===== He had seen the arrival at the station of his mother, his sister and two brothers. Friends, sorting the piles of clothes on the platform, found a photograph of his wife and child. 'That is all I have left of my family. Only a photograph,' he said. None of the defense counsel wanted to cross-examine Samuel Rajzman either. ===== Again, very inadequate defense counsel. Certainly grounds for a mistrial. ===== Besides such witnesses, the Russians could produce documents of suffering too - documents on tortures, beatings, castrations, injections with poison, infections with cancer, typhus, malaria. ===== It is amazing the documents the Soviets could produce. Or perhaps we should add to the Nazi physics the Nazi biology that cancer is an infectuous disease. Or rather we should certainly learn how they did it as we can only do it these days with rats specially bred to be susceptable to cancer. This is certainly very important to cancer research. Of course it is interesting to note that even if they did manage it the course of most cancers is years, not months. Treblinka was not around long enough. It is also of interest that the Nazis not only had samples of malaria but were willing to risk all of their own people by deliberately creating malaria infected food for mosquitoes. And, of course, typhus. Every place else they are doing their damnedest to keep it under control for their own protection yet here they deliberately start cases of it. ===== They had too many documents. ===== A master of understatement. ===== But how could the court refuse to accept in evidence the statement which Jacob Vernik, a Warsaw carpenter, had given his government? It described the year he had spent at Treblinka. The judges knew all too much by now about camps like Treblinka. But Vernik said that writing his statement had given him the only reason to continue his life. 'Awake or asleep I see the terrible visions of thousands of people calling for help, begging for life and mercy. I have lost all my family, I have myself led them to death. I have myself built the death chambers in which they were murdered. I am afraid of everything. I fear that everything I have seen is written on my face. An old and broken life is a very heavy burden, but I must carry on and live to tell the world what German crimes and barbarism I saw.' ===== FWIW, he is a carpenter so those claimed gas chambers were made of wood so they were completely oil soaked. ===== At the end of a morning session, where the massacre of the Jews at Vilna was described and Severina Shmaglerskaya gave her evidence, Doenitz's counsel Dr. Kranzbuehler asked him 'Didn't anybody know anything about any of these things?' Doenitz shook his head and shrugged his shoulders sadly. Goering turned round. 'Of course not ... The higher you stand the less you see of what is going on below.' They all ate their lunches in silence that day.<59>" ===== Fascinating that this recounting makes Goering appear innocent. ===== (Tusa, 200-201) <59> Gilbert (G.M. Gilbert, "Nuremberg Diary," Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1948) Work Cited Tusa, Ann & John. The Nuremberg Trial. Birmingham, Alabama: The Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc., 1990 From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:59 PDT 1996 Article: 42333 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:01:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4pfoou$ikl@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot9a8$maj@kryten.awinc.com> <4oud8p$d1u@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4p13sf$aof@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4p4o9u$ouk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4p7erd$9vr@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <4p7inv$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tq3$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4pa93e$p2d@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4pfk9j$495@dub-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 7:03:42 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >>>> You want to go into a discussion of water flow in rivers next? >>>It will be uncessary. 'Some tons' do some m^3. You willn't obstruct a >>>rivier with it, even less if you put the ashes from time to time. The >>>beds of riviers are moving with the flow, and a part of the ashes >>>could take part in the ecosystem. >> There is no choice of "from time to time" given the quantities >>that were in need of disposal. And then were are talking >>thousands of tons of ashes being dumped right there on the river >>bank. >I reperat: some tons do some m^3. Thousands of tons do millions of >victims: from 0.9M (gassed) to 2.5 M (summarized). At the most, 5m^3. >It is a cubic meter of 1.7m. You are not making a lick of sense here. You appear to be saying millions of cremations would only result in five cubic meters of material. Perhaps you should start off with the holohugger claim of 2 lbs of ash per body and start multiplying. >> It is not clear that calcium oxide and carbon are biologically >>active particularly with such huge quantities in one place. At >>best the biological activity could only be from the surface >>inward. >Yes. The reverse is unclear too. We have a chemist who claims that CaO2 is so inert that it will not even burn at 800C. You may also let either lay out wet or dry exposed either to every organism you can find and you will not be able to get anything to grow on either. Have you ever seen mold growing on a diamond? graphite? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:00 PDT 1996 Article: 42336 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:07:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 145 Message-ID: <4pfp4c$ikl@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com> <4pccde$3sf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pekls$s1q@boris.eden.com> <4pf04k$cnd@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pfgs5$3nh@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 7:09:48 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: >>>>In article <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary >>>>Ostrov) writes: >>>>Hilary, this is altogether just the sleaziest thing I have ever read. You >>>>have misrepresented my claims both as to vocation and attainments, you >>>>have lied about my claiming authorship, and you have misstated the extent >>>>of my ghost work. >>>Clue: When you come on a board with a psuedo-name people will be >>>curious. Compuserve is a little more honest as a service in that you >>>are required to let the sysops know your real name when you come into >>>a forum with a fake one. >> CI$ is completely dishonest in regard to forums. >Another sweeping pronouncement based on complete ignorance of how >forums are run. Sad. Trolling trolling over the bounty main. . . It is not a matter of how they are run but that they do not exist as advertised. CI$ doth also suckle
Compuserve Information $ervices doth also suckle

Contractors and Responsibility
and co-conspiracy
      This is the old, I'm only doing my job, gambit. First you get a big name with a large following, such as Rush Limbaugh, to say, "in addition you get access to forums." That brings in people who want access to those forums.
      Then one discovers that one does not have the contracted access to those forums save at the sufferance of people who are not employed by CI$. Say for example I take your money and in return I promise to give you some service. After taking your money (CI$ is prepay) you discover that one of my independent subcontractors can tell you that you will not be given what you paid for.
      Now in the ad there is never a mention of "other terms and conditions may apply." Nor is there a 300 word per minute mumbled statement at the end of the commercial. But once you have paid for something you discover that someone else will decide if you get it.
      In my book that is plain and simple theft and in this case as a result of fraudulent representations. These independent, accessories to the fact contractors have two stock lines, I am responsible for my area and I am prohibited by contract from explaining my relationship with CI$ further. A more appropriate answer might be, "I refuse to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me."
      Now this is not an accusation of multiple criminal acts. Rather it this is a description of acts that may or may not be in law, criminal. Were it not for the prepayment, token or otherwise, it might be otherwise.
      To give the devil his due CI$ knows the likely criminal situation it is in. They will not pursue a refusal to pay the amount over the $10 a month if denial of service is cited as the reason. If anyone has had a contrary experience or has one in the future, report any attempt to collect to your local prosecutor's office.
      Your report is simple. You were offered X, you paid for X, you were denied X, they are trying to collect for X. It is not different from people trying to collect for that building lot they sold you after you discover it is a swamp, or after you discover the odometer has rolled over a couple times.
      Complaints are dealt with a certain degree of sanctimony, an appeal to the necessity of keeping order. However, appeals to "where is it written" in the rules are rejected, the arbitrary powers of the moderators are not to be limited by rules that apply to mere mortals.
      The other bit of sanctimony is "you agreed to the rules." No, I did not. I accepted the contract as advertised which was without any further terms or conditions or notification of their existence. I am not bound by any additional terms or conditions, noting the moderators are not bound by them.
      It is a matter of time before CI$ and its co-conspirators in false and misleading advertising are called to account for their actions. Join the crowd before it becomes a stampede. Besides, if you subscribe to any major service, you are paying too much to read this on the web. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:01 PDT 1996 Article: 42337 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I Witnessed a Gassing' Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 23:35:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 245 Message-ID: <4pfn8l$nn8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p5rdk$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p79gm$32g@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p840p$qr1@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tpi$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4pab30$qgh@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pctrb$23e@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> <4pd85c$lqk@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4pfk8v$495@dub-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 4:37:57 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>>>In fact the more likely is both CO and lack of O2, with NOx added. A >>>>>low rate of O2 is lethal. An high rate of CO is lethal. NOx is lethal >>>>>even at low rates (400ppm). The mix is lethal, and it is difficult to >>>>>say what was the principal cause. The lack of O2 could be sufficient >>>>>by itself (or NOx, aso). The pink color of the bodies in some cases >>>>>could only be an indication that the CO was the principal cause, but >>>>>the CO is far more toxic when the rate of O2 is low, then O2 is >>>>>involved too. >>>> You are not following the thread. >>>In the opposite, I'm closely folllowing it. >>>> It started as an observation that there were four causes of death >>>>at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution >>>>and vacuum chambers. It also turns out there was a conviction >>>>for steaming so they were not merely mistaken reports they were >>>>rather clear lies. >>>Your statements are from the former testimonies, from several hundred >>>meters aways whithout any way to be more accurate. >> That is either clear nonsense OR it was possible to get a >>conviction based upon witnesses hundreds of yards away. Either >>way, it does not pass any muster in any court but a kangaroo one. >In the first time, as nobody can escape AND witnessing the murdering >process, it sounds natural. In an second time, when escaped inmates >and SS can testimony it was easier. Why do you mind Stangl was >sentenced to a life emprisonment ? Perhaps because because the >Dusseldorf judges were harsh ? The subject is Pohl, convicted of a crime that never occurred. >>The facts remains >>>that several thousands of victims (often 12000 in one day) were going >>>to Treblinka with Polish drivers, and never return; we have the >>>testimonies of the Polish, of the escaped inmates, and of the SS. >> And we have such evidence, also gathered by the Soviets, that >>proved the Germans massacred Polish officers in Katyn Woods. You >>are not making a credible case pointing to such a source of >>evidence. >I have to recall you that ever the Katyn's massacre wasn't considered >in the Nuremberg trial. Precislesy because the German's defense was >too strong. The Russians were clearly willing to make such a false accusation. General Rudenko surfaces again you will note. ===== "As if there had not been problems enough in drawing up an indictment, the Russians at the last moment demanded that the massacre of 925 Polish officers at Katyn be added. It was breathtaking. They had never mentioned it before. Everyone else was pretty certain that the Russians themselves had murdered the Poles. All those anxieties about protecting the Russians in particular against embarrassing evidence, all that concern about avoiding accusations of _tu quoque_, and here were the Russians wanting to deliver as large a collection of skeletons as could have bene found. The others tried to argue the Russians out of their folly. They pointed out that there were no witnesses to the Katyn murders who 'would meet the high standards of credibility required in a criminal trial'; they pleaded that all the other prosecution evidence was from German sources whereas this charge was backed only by a Soviet government report. The Russians were adament. So on their heads be it. The charge went into the indictment; the other prosecutors made it quite clear they would play no part at all in this section of the case. In a final twist, which only made matters worse, twelve days after the indictment was signed the Russians insisted on changing the number of Polish officers killed to 11,000." (Tusa, 113) Work Cited Tusa, Ann & John. The Nuremberg Trial. Birmingham, Alabama: The Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc., 1990 === "But first, the judges had to clear a problem which had occasionally surfaced from the time the indictment was drawn up - the Russian allegation that the German army had murdered up to 11,000 Polish officers in Katyn wood near Smolensk. The Russians had embarrassed their colleagues by insisting on including this charge; most people suspected that the Russians themselves had been responsible for the killings. Their subsequent handling of the matter had increased that embarrassment, incensed the defence, and irritated the judges. When first raised in court in February during the Russian prosecution case, Pokrovsky had called the Katyn murders 'one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible.'[1] Yet in spite of such a large verbal claim he had considered it adequate to summarize briefly a report on the atrocity by the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission and then to submit that report as the sole evidence for his allegation. The defence clamoured for a fuller hearing of the charge. Had they merely called for a chance to prove Russian guilt in order to establish a damaging case of _tu quoque_, they would undoubtedly have been overruled by the Tribunal. As it was the judges themselves were far from satisfied with Pokrovsky's perfunctory presentation of such a grave matter. On 12 March they summoned the Russian chief prosecutor, Rudenko, and insisted he call witnesses to substantiate the charge and to face cross-examination. [2] Rudenko's high-handed response increased their determination to hold a more thorough examination - he not only protested against their ruling on witnesses, he made the indefensible claim that the report of the Extraordinary State Commission must be treated as irrefutable evidence. On 6 April Biddle expressed to him in no uncertain terms the judges' view that the report would only be given as much weight as any other official report - that is to say, just as much as the Tribunal deemed appropriate. And, furthermore, they had now decided they wished to hear three witnesses each for the defence as well as the prosecution in this matter [3]. When the hearing on the Katyn massacre finally took place on 1 and 2 July, scepticism about the Russian charge can only have been increased by their evidence, and doubts about the desirability of raising it at all deepened by the particularly inept way in which the Russians did it.[4] Both the Russian and the defence cases turned on establishing the date when the Polish officers died. The Russians claimed that the shootings had taken place in the autumn of 1941 when German troops occupied the area. They brought as witness a Bulgarian pathologist who had been a member of an international investigation team set up by the Germans in 1943 which had fixed the date of the massacre as early 1940 - when the Russians were still in control of the district. He now, however, denounced that report, stating that its medical arguments were faulty, that the experts had only been allowed to examine a few bodies chosen for them by the Germans and had signed a prepared summary of their findings while waiting to leave from a military airport (more or less, he implied, as a condition of take-off). The Bulgarian now declared that forensic evidence clearly pointed to autumn 1941 as the date of the murders, as did a Russian pathologist who had taken part in the State Commission's examination of 925 corpses at Katyn in 1944. The Russians added that papers, letters, diaries found on the bodies supported this dating, and that the calibre of bullet and method of execution (shooting in the back of the head or the back of the neck) were exclusively German. The Russian case became even more specific. They named as the culprits a unit 'camouflaged' under the title 'Staff Engineer Battalion 537' commanded by a 'Lieutenant Colonel Arnes.' This attempt at precision rebounded on them. The defence produced in court not 'Lieutenant Colonel Arnes' but Colonel Ahrens, the former commander of the Signals Regiment 537, units of which had moved into the Katyn area from the late summer lf 1941. Ahrens said he had seen the mound containing the Polish bodies soon after he arrived in November, that he had ordered an ivestigation in 1943 after wolves had disinterred bones and when local people told him they had always feared that bodies had been buried there since hearing shots and screams in the wood in 1940. He, too, claimed to have seen written evidence on the bodies, but that it was never dated later than 1940. Ahrens and the two other German witnesses, both from his regiment, emphasized that a Signals Regiment would never have been considered suitable for carrying out executions, let alone on such a scale, when they were already overstretched by the tasks of moving into Smolensk; and that they were never equipped with automatic weaponsof the calibre used to kill the Polish officers (though some Russian units were). The Tribunal did not investigate the facts of the Katyn murders extensively during this two day hearing. Its duty was not to act as a commission of inquiry into the atrocity. Rather it was to open the Russian allegation to defence challenge, a challenge the Russians had not withstood. As their case was exposed, they veered away from their confident accusation against the 'Staff Engineer Batallion' and replaced it in court with the sudden allegation that an Einsatzgruppe was present in the district in autumn 1941 - but without producing any evidence to connect it with the crime. The Russians were perhaps fortunate that the judges chose to make no mention of the Katyn massacre in their judgement. Conclusions very different from those they desired might well have been drawn from the evidence they presented; a tacit hint that they had merely failed to prove their case let them off lightly. (Tusa, 410-412) End Notes: 1. IMT Vol. VII 2. Tribunal minutes, 12 March 3. Tribunal minutes, 6 April 4. IMT Vol. XVII Work Cited Tusa, Ann & John. The Nuremberg Trial. Birmingham, Alabama: The Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc., 1990 ===== So we have clearly a willingness for the Soviet's head prosecutor to lie in an attempt to get a conviction. And he was not even disbarred much less courts martialed for doing so. >>If >>>you want a more accurate description of the gass chambers, take >>>Gerstein and Pfannenstiel testimonies. Or more oviously Stangl, >>>Suchomel aso. Gerstein said that Pfannenstiel was with him in >>>Treblinka, but Pfannenstiel denied it as the testimony of Gerstein >>>involved him. It is amazing that a denier like Rassinier can't get >>>anything other than '15 mn at most' from Pfannenstiel (since judged) >>>for the gassing time, in a private interview. >>>Obviuously, the method is always a diesel exhaust. >Gerstein, Pfannenstiel aso will be sufficient. They never said that >oil was the cause of death. They said only that in 28mn-32mn the >vitims were dead, with a stopwatch. Pfannenstiel said it too to >Rassinier, a well-known revisionist who would be glad to hear another >claims. Wasn't Gerstein the man who committed suicide immediately after his confession and who body was immediately lost? Maybe it was cremated in 20 minutes. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:02 PDT 1996 Article: 42339 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He Lies Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 18:00:44 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 72 Message-ID: <4pf3kj$jlq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdhmu$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4perin$1ek@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 1:02:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> >> >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> > >> >> What is curious is why you do not believe in steaming and Katyn >> >> Woods when you know there was solid enough evidence and testimony >> >> to support executions in those cases. >> >> > No one was ever convicted or executed for Katyn Woods. >> >> Of course not. > Please note the admission that Giwer, who has repeatedly posted >that the "evidence" presented by the Soviets was the basis for both >convictions and executions now admits that this rubric of his is not true. Right. >> But you believed for many years the Nazis did it >> based upon the integrity and honesty of the Soviet Union as did >> most all of the world that gave a damn. > Sorry. I never beleived it. Neither did any person who gave the >matter any thought. I know and you never believed 4 million at Auschwitz either. Are you really that young? Or have you spent your entire life trying to master a killfile? >> ALL of the testimony from the Soviet liberated territories comes >> from the same Soviets that brought us both Katyn Woods and >> STEAMING. > Wrong again. The reports of "steaming" came from the Polish >resistance. I can, if you wish, produce people brought up in Poland after the >war who never believed the Soviet version. They, if naybody, gave a damn. >In fact, very little of the testimony of the IMT came from the Soviets and the IMT >was apparently able to distinguish between evidence that was credible and >evidence that was not credible. This, after all, is the function of a jury or judge >sitting as a fact finder. Buzzer there. It lead to a conviction on steaming. And just who else could the testimony have come from but the Soviets (or their Polish partners)? They were the only investigators permitted in the territories they liberated. If it did not come from them, someone else made it up. >> The source has no credibility, period. > That is up to the finder of fact whether it be jury or judge or panel of >judges. Since you now admit that the panel in question was able to make a >valid determination of credibility (they rejected the evidence presented by the >Soviets on Katyn Woods) there is a prima facie case that the panel knew what >they were doing. > You have made an assertion. Please give it some support. Tell us >what evidence came from the Soviets and how the panel evaluated it. The assertion is that Pohl was convicted of steaming people. It would appear that he deserves to have his name cleared even at this late date. Who invented that story? Who but the Soviets and Poles had access to the lack of evidence? Face it. He was convicted upon false evidence. The man was no guilty of the charge. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:02 PDT 1996 Article: 42342 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ece.uc.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Sobibor & SS Sergeant Fallaster Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:22:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4petst$rrc@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ougjn$cij@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p23pr$1c6@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:25:01 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4p23pr$1c6@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >> >> >Archive/File: holocaust/poland/reinhard/sobibor sobibor.08 >[snip] >> And all of this story simply because they were not bright enough >> to cover the bodies with dirt. >REALITY CHECK: Seems like Giwer is not bright enough to read: ".. and the >Jews would cover them with dirt." >> But a minor question here. Since these pits were 15 to 20 feet >> deep and the water table was so shallow that the ground turned to >> swamp, why were not the bodies floating? >REALITY CHECK: Seems like Giwer is not bright enough to read: ".. and the >Jews would cover them with dirt." Gee, I was hoping that was a typo. Covered with dirt then no smell. Looks like the entire story is the product of the overactive imagination of a Soviet interrogator. >> Another minor question. Where did all the firewood come from? >REALITY CHECK: Seems like Giwer is not bright enough to read: "...the >sweet-scented pine forest...." >> Or does green wood burn that well under SS physics? >REALITY CHECK: Perhaps Giwer should ask the U.S. Forestry Service why >"green wood," aka "trees," burn so well in forest fires? As they spend >considerable effort at times in trying to put forest fires out, I'm sure >they could enlighten him as to the combustive properties of pine trees. Actually you make the same fool mistake that Sagan, et al. made in the damn fool nuclear winter unprofessional publication. Only 10% of the biomass and then mainly non-trees, burn in a forest fire. But you know that. One also assumes that Sagan, et al. knew that when they used 100% in order to sell the book. You have a lot to learn. You should spend the next couple decades learning. You will not look as stupid if you do. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:03 PDT 1996 Article: 42344 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ece.uc.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.netins.net!mr.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Moran is winning Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 16:00:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 59 Message-ID: <4pesj7$aaa@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4pdbra$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <8JUN199622193747@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:02:47 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4pdbra$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >> >>>In article <4pcian$2h7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >>>> >>>>>How does your answer above "provide an explicit example (and URL) >>>>>from Nizkor demonstrating lack of honesty or integrity." Danny >>>>>doesn't care about this stupid feud with Dahlman. Answer his request. >>>> >>>> The request is superflous. Leaving things out of a thread is >>>>lacking in honesty and integrity. You both know that is done. >>>>There is no reason to play games with the rest of it. >> >>> I take it then that you are either unable to or simply refuse to back >>> up your assertion that Nizkor is dishonest and lacks integrity. >> >>> At least we understand the house of cards this assertion of yours is >>> built upon. So be it. >> >> There is no need to prove common knowledge. The saved files are >>selected by the name of the sender. They do not save by the >>thread. They lack honesty and integrity. >> >> That is fact. All the holohugger word games in the world are not >>going to give either honesty or integrity to Nizkor or any of its >>participants. > No, it is not fact. It is conjecture on your part. Now, if you assert > that they lack an effective cataloging system and search engine, I will > agree with that (and risk the wratch of Nizkor in doing so.) Wrath? Risk? We all know it is a piece of shit and I have said so many times. Or will they go after you as a traitor of some sort? Mail bombs? Harrassing your ISP? Harrassing your family? But to > presume that this particular shortcoming has anything to do with lack > of integrity or honesty is a logical leap which you have not adequately > defended (if you have defended it at all.) That is not relevent. Entire threads are not kept. That is a deliberate decision. That means Nizkor is not different from David Dahlman. No honesty and no integrity. It is an open and shut case. It is exactly the method used in Soapbox Rock and just a vigorously defended. > But, methinks you are merely trolling at this point. You are defending those who have no defense. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:04 PDT 1996 Article: 42345 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 17:06:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4pf0e0$cnd@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4om9fu$a8e@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4p0n95$opp@shiva.usa.net> <4p5c0l$kc7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p5rv0$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4pekh8$c7g@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 10:08:16 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4p5rv0$8ia@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >> >>>In article <4om9fu$a8e@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >>>> If you want more on semantics itself, look for the works of S.I. >>>> Hiyakawa, perhaps the best introductory works around. Later you >>>> can try Science and Sanity by Alfred Korzybski if you are up to >>>> it. >> >> >>> "Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish >>> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus >>> implying that we is observant?" >> >> Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity? > I would say that Matt Giwer has neither a reputation for integrity nor >a reputation for being observant. > I do not see how anyone who thinks "After a few minutes there was >silence ... after some time, perhaps fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was >opened" means that screaming went on for "tens of minutes" is in any way >qualified to tackle Korzybski. Neither science nor sanity seem to be >subjects about which Mr. Giwer is qualified to deliver opinions. As you are completely ignorant of science, you are not qualified to have an opinion on the subject. But it is good to see you took notes and are even implying you are familiar with Korzybski's work. For you next questions, who were his most popular proponents and what organization was partially based upon it? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:05 PDT 1996 Article: 42346 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 17:01:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4pf04k$cnd@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com> <4pccde$3sf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pekls$s1q@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 10:03:16 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: >>In article <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary >>Ostrov) writes: >>Hilary, this is altogether just the sleaziest thing I have ever read. You >>have misrepresented my claims both as to vocation and attainments, you >>have lied about my claiming authorship, and you have misstated the extent >>of my ghost work. >Clue: When you come on a board with a psuedo-name people will be >curious. Compuserve is a little more honest as a service in that you >are required to let the sysops know your real name when you come into >a forum with a fake one. CI$ is completely dishonest in regard to forums. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 21:22:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42347 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 17:02:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 48 Message-ID: <4pf079$cnd@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4oji7q$34m@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4okkbe$rf2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4omaon$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4onikm$gk@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4oq9jg$1oa@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4ot94j$5nh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4ouci8$24m@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ov29a$t43@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4pem3i$5kq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 10:04:41 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article <4ov29a$t43@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten > said: >>> Excuse me, but in the moment of takeover they had ZERO control >>>over foreign correspondents. And they were certainly showing up >>>for the long announced and staged event of the rejoining of >>>Germany and Austria. Most likely they were invited to cover it. >>Source, please. I don't have my copy of Shirer's account at hand, but >>this does not coincide with my recollection of his description. As I >>remember, Shirer indicated that it appeared in fact to be a top priority, >>and that he and several other newsfolk were sort of put under house arrest >>briefly until the Nazis had consolidated control. Under the Nazi regime >>in Germany, before war broke out, all newsreports made from Germany were >>subject to heavy censorship and strict regulation. If you have evidence >>to the contrary, please share it. Keyword here is evidence, Mr. Giwer. >>Shirer was a newsman, was in Austria at the time of the Anschluss, and had >>direct experience with Nazi censorship of the newsmedia at the time. >>Unless you can provide some sources to contradict what he describes, I see >>no reason to doubt what he says. >If the Giwer-troll ever even once read something that he claims he has read, >he would realize how stupid his "zero control" comment is. From the very >same Shirer book: >[begin quote] >The worst has happened! Schuschnigg is out. The Nazis are in. Hitler has >broken a dozen solemn promises, pledges, treaties. And Austria is finished. >[...] Must write something. The Nazis will not let me broadcast. Here I >sit on one of the biggest stories of my life. I am the only broadcaster in >town. Max Jordan of NBC, my only competitor, has not yet arrived. Yet I >cannot talk. The Nazis have blocked me all night. I have argued, pleaded, >fought. An hour ago they ushered me out with bayonets. >[end quote] >(William L. Shirer, _Berlin Diary_, Alfred A Knopf, New York, 1941, [entry >for March 11-12, 1938, Vienna.]) In the moment of takeover. Did you read that, McFly? Hello, McFly, anyone in there? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 9 22:33:16 PDT 1996 Article: 48268 of alt.discrimination Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:31:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4pfqh8$irp@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4obuhn$bia@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4ocd3o$gq8@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4odf9t$q48@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4ofanu$6t5@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4oh5g3$s3p@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4omebv$gcj@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4ovkpo$l8r@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pfgac$c5h@aphex.direct.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 5:33:44 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31789 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22222 alt.discrimination:48268 alt.revisionism:42359 alt.skinheads:27474 patrickc@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote: >In article <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote: >> >>Cthulhu (patrickc@Direct.CA) writes: >>> In article <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA >> (Les Griswold) wrote: >>> >>>>(snip - about Eldridge Cleaver's _Soul on Ice_, wherein he expounds about >>>>the virtues of raping White women, as a means of "getting back at" the >>>>White man) >>> >>> So what? You can read considerably more white supremacist pamphlets which >>> expound upon the virtues of murdering nonwhites, Catholics, homosexuals and >>> Jews. >> >>Really? Name one. >Absolutely all of them. >Starting with Mein Kamph and The Turner Diaries. Neither are pamphlets. One is a work of fiction. The other does not have such advocacy. Got any pamphlets with such open advocacy? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42363 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Another good one Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 04:36:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <4pg8sl$28u@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 11:38:45 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Anyone seriously interested in this gassing story should first go to Nizkor and dig out the picture of one and then compare it to this description. You will of course find they do not match in the least. ===== Kiev, 16.May.1942 Reich Secret Document To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff Berlin The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been completed... I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house trailers, by having a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and on the large ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the country. The vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but the civilian population referred to them as the "Death Vans" as soon as one appeared.... I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far away as possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent damage to their health in the event of gas leaking out... The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to get the Aktion finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the accelerator as far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of suffocation and do not doze off as was planned.... Dr. Becker SS Untersturmfuehrer ===== Und hier ve haf de gut Dr. Becker not realizing that 1) the "gas leaking out" is no more dangerous than any auto exhaust 2) gas HAS TO come out as it is not pressurized and 3) a holohugger has sworn there were special vents on these trucks in the first place so it was going to come out. (One of the Dannys I believe.) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42369 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:15:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4pgelt$hfd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4o8psp$ni3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4okq55$6qu@shiva.usa.net> <4omb7c$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4ondls$3d9@access5.digex.net> <4or0t2$c2m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pdn26$a5i@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4per92$9cv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pgblv$afa@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:17:33 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >: Get this straight once and for all Sgt. Schultz. You have no >: idea what I originally said. However, I have recounted it >: accurately. One of your fellow holocaust worshippers has even >: posted the original. You read it and you would know I recounted >: it accurately. >What I know is that you are lying as usual. You claimed that combustion >of coke was a commercial source of HCN, and continued to do so after >several people presented you with the facts of the matter. >: It is unclear why someone would pervert professional credentials >: in the manner you are doing. >Yawn. Of course. Holohuggers do it in the belief that others will like them, think well of them, respect them for "defending" the politically correct side of the issue. Such courage. On the order of defending motherhood. They clothe themselves as defenders of civilization as we know it so they will not have to admit they are simply looking for peer group approval. There have been people here who have stated it much more clearly and then had to face it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:07 PDT 1996 Article: 42370 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer goofs again Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 05:29:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4pgc0b$k80@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdkgo$eta@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pfq8o$40h@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 12:31:55 AM CDT 1996 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> As there is no questioning of holocaust numbers in the depth that >> what I have posted is questioned (are historians demographers?) > Some are. In fact it's a very active field in both archeology and history. >> then all we are seeing is clearly unquestioning acceptance of >> pro-gassing numbers by those who love the idea of their being the >> only survivor of a gassed family. > No what honest and intelligent people are trying to do (I except you from >this description) is determine where the numbers came from and what they mean. >They do not do this by comparing numbers compiled from different sources, from >different periods of time, and from different geographical areas and claim that they >are identical. You are teh only one who insists that everybody should admit the >numbers are anything but estimates. If you want them all to be estimates, your gassings fall within estimation error. You really do not have enough slack to call it anything else. You have by now read the report of the French that hardly more than 10% of their deportees to work camps came back. We do not have reports of any huge number of French being gassed. So clearly we have an extraordinarily high attrition rate due to other causes. But you folks love your gassing so much that you can not see the preponderance of the evidence rather than the Soviet provided testimony. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:08 PDT 1996 Article: 42371 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 05:55:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 71 Message-ID: <4pgdhg$cg0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdk7i$eta@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pfn5d$40h@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 10:58:08 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> Excuse me but when I first posted regarding the grounds for >> Pohl's conviction there was no disagreement with my statement. >> It was posted with the Nuremberg referenences. > I checked. It wasn't. You have never given a citation to either the >indictment or the judgment of conviction. There was a bald statement that he was >"acquited" and then retried in Poland. In fact, he was convicted by the IMT. Fine. You checked. What did you check? Where is the reference? What does it say? Please be specific. As to your "where convicted" routine, what I posted was with IMT references to the conviction. So just what did you find he was convicted of? >> BTW: I have just come across a major (far beyond copyright >> violation) section from a CD-ROM on the holocaust. I do not have >> enough on it yet to deal with it. What strikes me about so far >> is that its 270k on Pohl and codefendents direct from Nuremberg >> do not mention gassing or steaming once or any variation thereof. >> Nor does it mention the grounds for conviction so it is very >> incomplete. > I.e. Giwer finally did some research, found an account of thrial and >found it did not agree with his invention. He therefore describes it as incomplete. >Most "scientists" collect their data before they announce conclusions. Giwer >pursues a different methodology and then whines when the data disagrees with >him. Unlike you, any attorney would know that the omission of the disposition of the case is an incomplete recounting of any trial. But then I would not make such a claim on your behalf. >> When I get more I will post it. > I won't hold my breath. Don't hold your breath mastering a killfile either, dummy. >> Excuse me. Would PLEASE post the charges under which he was >> convicted? You have the access to all the information. It is >> certainly something you know about to be challenging me. > Of course, I know about it; that's how I can state with confidence that >the judgment of conviction doesn't mention "steaming" people. I don't do your >research. It's easy to find. Now do the work to back up you assertion. I have already posted the IMT references to it. You are the one out in the cold. >> From the CD-ROM file I am more than willing to accept he was >> convicted of running concentration camps under inhumane >> conditions but they fail to mention gassing. In fact the details >> of the inhumane conditions (of course all Soviet generated) again >> beg the question of how so many survived with gassing. It is >> clearly a miracle so many survived without it. > No. They used his own memoranda among other items of evidence. >None was "Soviet generated." The Soviets were responsible for the prosecution of all crimes that happened in the territories they liberated. Who are you claiming generated the details? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:09 PDT 1996 Article: 42377 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: and of course Russians were canibals Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:42:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4pg5o8$3vb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 8:45:12 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 'Even on the march to the camps, the civilian population was not allowed to give the prisoners of war food. In many cases, when prisoners of war could no longer keep up on the marches because of hunger and exhaustion, they were shot before the eyes of the horrified civilian population, and the corpses were left.' (NCA, 081 PS, 'Prisoners of War,' Feb. 28, 1942.) Since the occupiers were, in fact, intent on stripping the land of everything edible, the captives were herded onto open ground fenced with barbed wire, and there, without shelter or tools, left to graze like cattle on grass, roots, and bark. Men died in layers huddling together for warmth. The living ate the dead, and cannibalism became epidemic. (Lahousen Affidavit, Lahousen Interrogation Records, Nov. 20, 1945.) Goering, his corpulence covered with a great sable coat that the Italian foreign minister, Count Ciano, described as 'something between what automobile drivers wore in 1906 and what a high-grade prostitute wears to the opera,'(Ciano, 443) chucklingly told the Italian foreign minister that the Soviet prisoners, 'after having eaten everything possible, including the soles of their boots, have begun to eat each other and, what is more serious, have eaten a German sentry.' (Ciano, 465.) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:10 PDT 1996 Article: 42378 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Another lovely story Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 116 Message-ID: <4pg5gf$3vb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 8:41:03 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed the falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point of view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly true story of the same first use. It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it. That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the URL so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site of this alternate reality true truth. ===== Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved impractical, and many were not 'selected' before they arrived in the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and 'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser ===== Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from Fritsch? ===== noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant. ===== Instantly "knocked out." One has to wonder just what it was that this person "whiffed". It is also of note that here it is used as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant. ===== To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue pellets, ===== Note the blue kitty litter. How strange. ===== which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution. ===== Even more than the impossible number the Nizkor story stuffs into the room. ===== Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.) ===== Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse into gelatinous blobs. Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is what really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised? But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it comes >from seeing a person "knocked out" from one whiff. Then we note that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to recover consciousness before dying and go through the hair pulling and finger biting routine. But this is a true story that Nizkor swears to as being gospel. Is there anyone out there who still denies that Nizkor is supporting absolute nonsense? Lying through their collective teeth that is? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:10 PDT 1996 Article: 42380 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:56:40 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:58:59 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:387898 alt.politics.libertarian:172961 alt.politics.democrats.d:85331 alt.politics.usa.republican:213168 alt.politics.usa.congress:42688 alt.politics.reform:74250 alt.activism:52832 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319158 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24486 alt.revisionism:42380 voltai29@ix.netcom.com (Jim Kennemur) wrote: >On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, awillis@ix.netcom.com (al willis) wrote: >>I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million. >>If this took place over 48 months, that's 125,000 deaths a >>month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis >Ask Pat Buchanan. >I think that if you will check a history book, Al, you will find that >the Nazis were in power for a bit more than 4 years. >Of course, if you are just some sort neo-Nazi revisionist then you >already know the answer and are just trolling. We will assume you are >just ignorant and not spiteful and full of hate, until you prove >otherwise. All of the commonly referenced Nizkor sources say the "extermination" started in the fall of 1941 at the earliest. If you disagree with four years, contact them. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:11 PDT 1996 Article: 42387 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: a curious Nizkor habit Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 02:52:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 4 Message-ID: <4pg2qh$8ol@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:55:13 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 That is mixing researched to some extent works with the off hand posts of amateur holohuggers as though there were no difference. Certianly an ego boost but of no merit. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:12 PDT 1996 Article: 42401 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: A WW I kind of war Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 01:18:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4pft8o$s65@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 6:20:24 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The facts and figures of the economic spoilation of Europe told of theft and destruction almost beyond imagining - the more so because each report warned that the scale of pillage and havoc had been so great that it was still not possible to estimate the final totals. Some of the figures were difficult to grasp and they certainly made little impact on many in court or in the Press. For instance, it needed a degree of financial knowledge and understanding of each country's economy to absorb such figures as those for financial seizures over and above what was legally permitted for occupation costs; in Denmark, the illegal seizures had been 8,000 million crowns, in Belgium 130,000 million Belgian francs. It helped when such figures were put into perspective: in France, the maximum sum which Germany could legally demand for the maintenance of her army of occupation was 74,000 million francs; yet the final French payment had come to 745,000 million, ten times larger. ===== Can anyone today imagine a legal requirement for an occupied country to pay for the occupying army? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:12 PDT 1996 Article: 42405 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: exact number from SWC Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 02:26:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 100 Message-ID: <4pg191$g72@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:28:49 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Now here we have the French speaking for the western nations affected in this time frame. ===== "The French also had a tale to tell of the horrors of forced labour which would only be surpassed in nastiness by that of the Russians. In occupied western Europe men and women were drafted into designated industires. Many of them were forced to work, contrary to all international regulations, on military projects - 248,000 labourers were constructing the Atlantic Wall by March 1943. Worse than forced labour at home was deportation to work in Germany - 1,293,000 people were taken from the West by April 1943. In Germany, they worked on average eleven hours a day (twelve hours in one Krupp factory); for this they received the same daily wage as German workers. They were heavily taxed, they were fined for minor breaches of discipline, they might be deprived of ration cards for up to four weeks as a punishment. ===== Some interesting points here. They were paid the going wages for the work. It was war time and they worked 11-12 hours a day. (My grandfather told of working those kinds of hours both when he started work and during WW II.) There is no commnet upon the taxes of the ordinary Germany citizen. And, since they had ration cards, they apparently had the freedom to go out shopping. An interesting picture. ===== The worst fate of all was deportation to concentration camps. Such was the scale, such was the official secrecy on the whereabouts of those seized that the prosecution could still provide no exact figures for those sent to the camps. It was guessed that 6,000 Luxembourgers, 5,200 Danes, 5,400 Norwegians, 12,000 Dutch, 37,000 Belgians had been sent. Of the 250,000 French deported, only 35,000 returned home; sometimes up to 25 per cent would die in the brutal transports on the way. ===== Although it is unclear where they got the 25 percent figure, the numbers themselves are interesting. 6,000 from Luxembourgh. SWC says that 1950 of them were Jews. But where Luxembourgh guessed, SWC knows. 5,200 Danes of which SWC says 60 were Jews. As above, guessing. 12,000 Dutch, SWC is unclear is saying 100,000 from the Netherlands. 37,000 Belgians, 28,900 SWC says were Jewish. But again, guessing. 250,000 French, 77,328 SWC says were Jews. But interestingly, there is no notice taken of any particularly Jewish contingent in these groups by the people who were involved at the time. ===== <36> New York Herald Tribune, 25 January ===== And of cours the unimpeachable source. ===== Work Cited Tusa, Ann & John. The Nuremberg Trial. Birmingham, Alabama: The Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc., 1990 From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:13 PDT 1996 Article: 42408 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ghettos? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:28:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <4pgff1$7r1@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p2d9f$1o8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4pg5e9$pdu@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:30:57 AM CDT 1996 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4p2d9f$1o8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >[snip of irrelevant portion of SWC answer #33 plus Giwer's introduction] >> well. In the summer and >fall of 1941, refugees in Japan were >>transferred to Shanghai but no >> measures were taken against them until early 1943, when they >>were forced to move into the >> Hongkew Ghetto. While conditions were hardly satisfactory, >>they were far superior to those >> in the ghettos under German control. >> >>===== >> >> Now here was have a policy of mass extermination on one hand and >>the economic burden of maintaining these ghettos on the other. > In the ghettos in occupied Russia, at least, the ghettos contained >laborers. In fact, one document mentions how they could not afford to >remove all the Jews from some areas because they made up such a large >proportion of the skilled craftsmen. If they needed the labor from the >ghettos it would not have been an economic burden. Strangely Nizkor carries an unassailbly true file claiming exactly the opposite, that they were all killed, the Wehrmacht would import more and they would be killed again. But there are so many true truths here it is difficult to keep them straight. >> Does anyone else get the feeling there is something inconsistent >>about this? > Yes, I do. But then, I also get a feeling of inconsistency when I >hear that they give medical care to people on death row in this country. Nazi doctors who could perform the miracle of infecting people with cancer would do that? > Say, do you suppose that California gas chamber is also a hoax? If they report tearing out hair and biting off fingers they certainly are. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:14 PDT 1996 Article: 42409 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: How missing Jews do we have to account for? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:43:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4pggaj$hdh@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfpug$bn3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <9JUN199619312353@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:45:39 AM CDT 1996 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4pfpug$bn3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >> It appears we only need to come up with some 1.5 million or so >>Jews or at least an explanation of where they went to wrap up >>most of this Soviet created gassing and steaming stories. > No. We have just had a week-long discussion spread over two or three > threads which clearly established that: > 1. The two numbers which generated the 1.5 million or so difference > were > a. from estimates > b. from different sources > c. measured at different times > d. represent different geographical boundaries > 2. We do not know how these two numbers were estimated, there is > potenial that error was introduced in either or both of them. > So your premise of "it appears we only need to come up iwth some 1.5 > million or so Jews" is not only flawed, but as you did not address the > conversation you yourself were active in, is dishonest. Flagrantly > dishonest. >> Is that about the right number or would someone like to propose >>another number? This is not a total number but rather the gassing >>and steaming only number. Anyone who wishes can throw >>electrocution, shooting and vacuum chambers into the mix if they >>want. > This is a troll. No. It is a question. How many have to be accounted for to dismess the gassing explanation. Do you have a number? A range of numbers? How many? There has to be such a number some place. I just want to establish a fixed target. You folks must have a number some place. I am looking for the total number of gassing and steaming and shooting and electrocuted and vacuum chambered and all other forms of extermination number. It has to be out there some place. What is it? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:15 PDT 1996 Article: 42415 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:36:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4pfqqh$irp@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pfam6$lqr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4pff6k$8sf@freenet-news.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 5:38:41 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31818 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22255 alt.discrimination:48275 alt.revisionism:42415 alt.skinheads:27497 bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote: >Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes: >> In article <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, >> bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote: >(snip - I challenged the meathead liberals here to name just one pro-White >work of literature that approached _Soul on Ice_ as a hate-filled screed) >> Almost anything that was printed by the Arizona Patriots, >> beginning with Oliphant's "To Alter or Abolish the >> Government." >> >> From there, you may wish to move to William Potter Gale, and >> the writings of the "Committee of the States." >> >> That's two. >> >> When you've done that, get back to us, Mr. Griswold, and we'll >> provide you with more. >Geez, Ken, never heard of either of those particular tracts. Funny, you >seem VERY well read on "Natsee" literature. How long did it take you to >find either of them? Would you suggest that EITHER of them is as popular >as _Soul on Ice_? _SOI_ is available in any largish library. Where would >one find either of the tracts you mention? And how unanimously do they >represent the feelings of Whites? While you're at it, perhaps you can >tell us when the NAACP made a formal refutation of _Soul on Ice_? >BTW, are either of those books banned in Canada? If so, how'd you get >your shithooks on them? Even more curious is why something that does what they claim would have such titles. It appears to be on the same level of stupidity as Morris Dees. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:16 PDT 1996 Article: 42416 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:03:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4pgdvr$cg0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4opkhs$onf@pine.netten.net> <31bb76ad.72251@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pg3ed$6b@news1.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 11:05:47 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 alec@gryn.org@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote: >In <31bb76ad.72251@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) writes: >>I dont think I ever saw people so enthralled with squealing. >>The pride in it passes me by... >You take pride in the fact that your purported "friends" verified who you were?!? >Since no one else is "enthralled with squealing", you surely must be pointing at >yourself. >To be expected, of course - from someone who would try to feed phony information to >Ann Onstad and pump her for information. I had almost forgotten about Annie. Nice kid. Didn't deserve the Dahlman treatment. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:17 PDT 1996 Article: 42418 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:35:09 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 46 Message-ID: <4pgfr7$i79@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pf13g$rh5@panix2.panix.com> <4pf5mh$gjt@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:37:27 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31823 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22265 alt.discrimination:48277 alt.revisionism:42418 alt.skinheads:27502 paul@mustang.mv.com (Whitey) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote: >>>In article <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, >>>Les Griswold wrote: >>>>>>(snip - about Eldridge Cleaver's _Soul on Ice_, wherein he expounds about >>>>>>the virtues of raping White women, as a means of "getting back at" the >>>>>>White man) >>>>> >>>>> So what? You can read considerably more white supremacist pamphlets which >>>>> expound upon the virtues of murdering nonwhites, Catholics, homosexuals and >>>>> Jews. >>>> >>>>Really? Name one. >>>> >>>>Les >>> _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald. >> Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction. >> Why not name one next time around? >A work of fiction which is used by thousands of individuals and >hundreds of white supremacists or religious groups as a blueprint for >what they see as an inevitable assault on the government and their >subsequent rise in power over non-whites. You discount it, but your >compatriots contradict your feigned disdain for it. Pure bullshit. Name the groups that use it. Please be specific in your response. No names? That makes you as bright as Morris Dees. >Byte me. What separates the human being from the animals is not the opposable thumb but the inability to lick one's genitals. You appear to have mastered that problem. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:01 PDT 1996 Article: 42502 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:27:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 47 Message-ID: <4pib4e$fk2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31b6e3af.3998155@news.pacificnet.net> <31b83e8a.3570015@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 6:29:18 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <31b83e8a.3570015@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom >moran) wrote: >> karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote: >> >> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: >> > >> >> "French Team Plunges Into Whirlpool" >> >> N.Y. Times, June 6, 1996 >> > >> >As one who appreciates sick humor, however unintentional, as much (or >> >more) than the next guy, I want to thank you from sharing this exceptional >> >inanity with us. (I am, of course, making the dangerous assumption that >> >you didn't forge the whole thing.) >> >> Do you see the quote marks? Do you notice the source and the >> date? >Indeed. One can find the article at: >http://www.cnn.com/SPORTS/OLYMPICS/9606/06/holocaust.swimmer.wir/index.html >And see just how faithful your citation is. >I especially like your "quote" that: >"The article continues to say, 'About 75,000 Jews, including 12,000 >children, were deported from France to Nazi death camps duringWorld War >II. Only about 2,500 survived.'" >When in fact it said: "About 75,000 Jews, including 12,000 children, were >deported from France to Nazi death camps during World War II. Only about >2,500 returned." >Your misrepresentation of substituting "survived" for "returned" is >telling in that you then use it to launch off into another one of your >little tirades against the Holocaust, ending in: "Thus, going by the >75,000 account, every >single Jew that lived in France was killed - and then some." The Nizkor approved file talks only about France reporting people being sent work camps with no mention of children or religion. Why do you think that is? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:02 PDT 1996 Article: 42503 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:32:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4piev9$72g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgj5k$kcj@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 5:34:49 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388421 alt.politics.libertarian:173273 alt.politics.democrats.d:85644 alt.politics.usa.republican:213717 alt.politics.usa.congress:42890 alt.politics.reform:74458 alt.activism:53011 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319587 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24559 alt.revisionism:42503 d.hart@ix.netcom.com(David A. Hart) wrote: >>> On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, awillis@ix.netcom.com (al willis) >wrote: >>> >>> >I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million. >>> >If this took place over 48 months, that's 125,000 deaths a >>> >month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis >The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such >camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per >day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per >month. Many died in concentration camps of "natural" causes such as >malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were >systematically executed "on the spot" in Poland and the Soviet Union. There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death rate. >The 6,000,000 figure applies to Jews. There were an additional >6,000,000 non-Jews killed for ethnic reasons. Actually the number includes all of those from a counterproductive approach to dealing the partisans and other clearly political and military causes. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:03 PDT 1996 Article: 42507 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:49:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4pifu9$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 5:51:21 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388435 alt.politics.libertarian:173279 alt.politics.democrats.d:85652 alt.politics.usa.republican:213732 alt.politics.usa.congress:42896 alt.politics.reform:74464 alt.activism:53018 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319599 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24560 alt.revisionism:42507 voltai29@ix.netcom.com (Jim Kennemur) wrote: >On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:56:40 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote: >>voltai29@ix.netcom.com (Jim Kennemur) wrote: >> >>>On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, awillis@ix.netcom.com (al willis) wrote: >> >>>>I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million. >>>>If this took place over 48 months, that's 125,000 deaths a >>>>month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis >> >>>Ask Pat Buchanan. >> >>>I think that if you will check a history book, Al, you will find that >>>the Nazis were in power for a bit more than 4 years. >> >>>Of course, if you are just some sort neo-Nazi revisionist then you >>>already know the answer and are just trolling. We will assume you are >>>just ignorant and not spiteful and full of hate, until you prove >>>otherwise. >> >> All of the commonly referenced Nizkor sources say the >>"extermination" started in the fall of 1941 at the earliest. >> >> If you disagree with four years, contact them. >Semantics Matt. Are you claiming that your favorite Goosesteppers >killed no Jews until 1941? >Watch his sidestep this one folks. Sidestep what? Your "favorite goosestepper" line? That would take an Arkansas two-step at least. But if you disagree with Nizkor, contact them and keep your holohugger name calling to a minimum. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:04 PDT 1996 Article: 42509 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:05:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:08:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388438 alt.politics.libertarian:173281 alt.politics.democrats.d:85655 alt.politics.usa.republican:213737 alt.politics.usa.congress:42899 alt.politics.reform:74467 alt.activism:53020 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319601 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24562 alt.revisionism:42509 ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death >camps... It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >As for how the number of 6 million came about... See, the Germans were >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be >"no longer operative," or some low level detailee in the Reichstag >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased. Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no records kept of those who were to gassed immediately. But then there are stories for all occasions and they are all equally true. >It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of >crap, questioning the Holocaust. They'd be more honest if they simply >admitted it and said they're only sorry the job wasn't finished. But >such honesty would be against their nature. Nazis are pathalogical >liars by nature.. What you appear to fail to realize is that the only thing in question are these mass exterminations and not the concentration and labor camps. If you stick with the documentation you refer to, they are still there. So is the death rate, right from the records recording the cause of death. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:05 PDT 1996 Article: 42510 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: How missing Jews do we have to account for? Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:28:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4pien8$72g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfpug$bn3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <9JUN199619312353@cmi.arizona.edu> <4pggaj$hdh@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603501126@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 5:30:32 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4pggaj$hdh@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >> >> No. It is a question. How many have to be accounted for to >>dismess the gassing explanation. > There is a tremendous amount of evidence for gassing over and above any > demographic accounting for the number of dead. Gassing can't be > dismissed without discounting all of this other evidence. How many? >> Do you have a number? A range of numbers? >> >> How many? >> >> There has to be such a number some place. I just want to >>establish a fixed target. You folks must have a number some >>place. >> >> I am looking for the total number of gassing and steaming and >>shooting and electrocuted and vacuum chambered and all other >>forms of extermination number. It has to be out there some >>place. What is it? > Historians and demographers estimate 11 to 12 million civilians died > due to the Holocaust. The SWC refers to the holocaust as only the Jewish part. I will still with that for the moment. >What number, exactly, are you looking for? As I have said, the number that are accounted for only the number of Jews who died by the various forms of direct and immediate execution even if after transportation to the place of execution. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42514 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:47:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4pifr0$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <31bc39eb.5712385@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 5:49:36 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388458 alt.politics.libertarian:173293 alt.politics.democrats.d:85668 alt.politics.usa.republican:213760 alt.politics.usa.congress:42909 alt.politics.reform:74477 alt.activism:53036 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319617 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24566 alt.revisionism:42514 Erik Marksberry wrote: > You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your >point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of >the Nazi party. Actually a quite limited bit of truth. The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put together a governing coalition of the parties which held seats in the Reichstag. Between then and March international Jewish organizations organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the middle of the Depression. They announced it in March. One week later there was a one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany organized by the Nazis. The permanent international boycott continued and at that point the rest of the permanent responses to the permanent boycott were instituted. You may also hear that the first camp, Dachau, was opened in March, 1933 but at the time it was for political enemies. ===== Keep firmly in mind, recitation of facts is not revision. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 01:37:07 PDT 1996 Article: 42523 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:16:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4pil2g$p4b@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pekls$s1q@boris.eden.com> <4pfo80$40h@news.enter.net> <177A2F6DAS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 9:18:56 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) wrote: >In article <4pfo80$40h@news.enter.net> >yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes: > >> While this is true, thought there were many people who did not give >>Ehrlich606 a chance to see what he was saying. I > >Maybe this is true. I did spend some time in Dejanews, trying to piece together >his larger picture (his own postings being more or less incidental, like much >on this newsgroup.) > >One question I had is how he treats Holocaust scholarship as a monolithic and >perfectly synchronized voting bloc, when, reading your posts for example, it >clearly isn't. That is one ot the problems with it, it is not monolithic. For example, if one points out there are records of all the people and cause of death, the true story of gassed being unrecorded is raised. When you point out there is no way to tell the "unrecored" from any ot the other 32 million that disappeared without a trace the true story that they were all registered is raised. Far from monolithic there is a true story to answer all problems. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:51 PDT 1996 Article: 42532 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Nose-honker still at large Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:07:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 72 Message-ID: <4pidgi$t78@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4pae9b$rqc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4pdbn4$7q7@access1.digex.net> <4pdf4j$p66@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31BC484C.6806@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 7:09:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42532 alt.censorship:84662 Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> It is not an international crime and they are originating in >> Canada from a person with root access to idirect which also hosts >> (and rips off by their prices) almanac ne Nizkor. >It is legally very actionable if you have proof. You can choose the >venue that is most profitable, as well. Civil actions can easily cross >boundaries. Civil of course but for what damages? Criminal? (as our resident Pennsylvania lawyer implied.) If by some miracle something that bares ranks as a misdemeanor were subject to mutual prosecution with Canada. I doubt Canada has enough surplus prosecutors to take an interest in the matter. I do know that ten years ago Fairfac County would not pursue a case of $10,000 in bad checks to NYC when it was his signature and was not hiding. >As for root access, I can send a message from "veal@parmesan.il" without >even turning off this newsreader or switching providers - and I can >definitely state that I don't have root access to this provider. And in the process you would have studied the server aliases and would have created a new server alias that was on the same theme as the other names. (Like the way the Brits name ships of the same class. I think I still have the original fingers if you would like them, also the converted email addrs.) And then you would manage to insert that into the Received: line, not the From: line, in some clever manner. And then you would include in the body of your message information that was discussed on the phone between the CEOs of the two ISPs involved only a few hours earlier and personally conveyed to me in which it was agreed by idirect that the person had root access. I am certain you would have a way to get them to call and brief you on the fonecon also. Alec, you are much more talented that I ever imagined. Would you like to tell me how you would do all of this? You can make it email if you don't want everyone to know. Since the responsiveness of idirect was so poor (zero) to my original complaints and only after I used a 2x4 did I get any response at all, it might be worthwhile to drop the mailing list in some appropriate newsgroups. They have certainly be obnoxious enough. >Further, while I am not thrilled by some of the actions of the owner of >idirect, I regret to say that his prices are very competitive for the >Canadian market. Besides the exchange rate, we also have much higher >costs for communication lines - plus a tax burden that is higher as >well. The question is rather to websites. Compare their prices to webcom or combase for example with full FTP access and local full access to locally running utilities like counters. If you have considered idirect, you will thank me. In fact there is a local ISP that throws in five megs of website for the same $20 a month unlimited. I am looking towards webcom at the moment just for its ability to index text files and if you have every seen mine you know how much that is needed. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:52 PDT 1996 Article: 42540 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: I am asking for a number, stupid Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:30:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 65 Message-ID: <4pisto$5ep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pgc0b$k80@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4pihue$mu0@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:32:56 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> If you want them all to be estimates, your gassings fall within >> estimation error. You really do not have enough slack to call it >> anything else. > This is why your arguments lack coherence. You have not the >slightest idea of how to analyse data. The initial question is not "gassing" or "not >gassing." The initial question is what happened to the Jewish communities in >Europe in the period 1939-1945. The simple answer is that, whatever, the >"estimations" of the numbers involved is that the people and the cultures >vanished. Once that question is established, the question of technique becomes >the operable question. While numbers can be debated about the first issue, it is >entirely irrelevant as to the second unless it is used to explain the accounts of >what happened. You attempt to do quite the reverse. It is, to say the elast, quite >unconvincing. Cute. If you do not have a number for those immediately executed solely because they were Jews simply say so. Just stop the game playing. What is the number? >> You have by now read the report of the French that hardly more >> than 10% of their deportees to work camps came back. We do not >> have reports of any huge number of French being gassed. So >> clearly we have an extraordinarily high attrition rate due to >> other causes. > Of a much smaller group of a different demographic make-up in >different conditions. Why do you insist on consistently comparing apples and >oranges and pretending it means something other than pure speculation? The French of course reported no particular demographic makeup either by religion or by age. I can not change that. >> But you folks love your gassing so much that you can not see the >> preponderance of the evidence rather than the Soviet provided >> testimony. > You are not only wrong in your characterization of the evidence but of >the position of every historian who has studied the subject. What I care about is >the murder of the Jews of Europe and erasure of Yiddish culture. There is no particular merit to Yiddish culture. Why would you care? The evidence >points strongly to the gassings as a final industrialization of that process. So what is the number? Nobody >but you and a few others erecting straw-men has ever claimed that gassing was >the predominent tool of those murders. You consistently use what I consider to >be a pretense as an excuse to attack the historical reality of the genocide. What is the number? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:52 PDT 1996 Article: 42541 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Many things change Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:34:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4pit4i$5ep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4paukm$66k@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4pi990$o3k@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:36:34 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that >> Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland, >> declared war on Germany. There you have the way it is always >> presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight. >> But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly >> remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded >> Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only >> declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation >> for this? If England's reason for declaring war upon Germany was >> just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia? > Never though to this one. It was under my nose for 2 decades > but I never asked myself questions about it before. Well, I > know why, but I'll keep this one in my bilological hard drive. You might as well say it. Towards the end of your life the evidence of the diplomatic doublecross in the form of an agreement between England and Russia and perhaps France will likely be released. And then you can say you said it in 1996, i.e. before the grandkids were born. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:53 PDT 1996 Article: 42545 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Gang of Six or Seven Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:55:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4piucd$5f2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31bc35fc.631967@news.pacificnet.net> <4piibq$mfg@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:57:49 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Before these wrong kind of posts stop being posted it would be of interest to collect the responses of the Gang of Six (or Seven) for future reference. After all, some day they may achieve the publicity and fame they crave. At that point there will be press interviews, talk shows, all the rest. And then there will be opportunities for confrontation. For example, "Mr. McVay, when the statement was made that crematoria do not have the capacity to accomodate the number of bodies produced, did you not say, and I quote, 'The only problem with the cremation rate is that your father did not know how to use a condom'?" A fertile mind can envision many such opportunities using the posts fo the entire Gang. Do not forget that these folks are expecting the praise of their fellow holohuggers for their activities. Nothing will shoot down public praise faster than making them unsuitable for public use. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:54 PDT 1996 Article: 42551 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:25:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4piskm$5ep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot330$jke@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4p32g9$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4p77aa$liv@shiva.usa.net> <4p7i20$i48@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pi6pc$c0@shiva.usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:28:06 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >In article <4p32g9$dhq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: > The building is NOT a hexagon. ONLY the Hall of > Rememberance is. >I responded: > So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that > proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish > victims. I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not > count for anything. >In article <4p7i20$i48@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) avoids responding to my comments, >preferring to merely reiterate his position: > And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and > it purpose. While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six > remind you of? Which six are you remembering? Or does it have > no meaning at all? >In other words, the exhibits and information count for nothing, but >the number of walls in one particular room counts for everything! Of course. It is the same with the SWC which unequivocally says that the term holocaust refers only to the Jews. It is you folks here who continue to deny that. >Apparently, whenever Mr. Giwer takes his children to a museum they >spend their time counting the walls in each exhibit area, instead of >looking at the exhibits and reading the information, because there is >so much more information packed into the number of walls, >symbolically speaking. The United States [Jews only} Holocaust Memorial Museum is what is in question here. If you have a problem with the term holocaust refering to Jews only take it up with the SWC. They say that is what it means. When I used to take my son to the Aerospace museum it was in fact about Aerospace. We we to go the USHMM it would be about what happened to Jews. It is there private holocaust. And again, if you don't like it, take it up with the SWC. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:55 PDT 1996 Article: 42556 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: The latest insanity from a gang member Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:09:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4pj2na$acr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4phvsj$6k9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pin1o$7rb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:11:54 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388603 alt.politics.libertarian:173366 alt.politics.democrats.d:85755 alt.politics.usa.republican:213905 alt.politics.usa.congress:42957 alt.politics.reform:74521 alt.activism:53096 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319752 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24597 alt.revisionism:42556 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4phvsj$6k9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, >ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >>Before you embarass yourself here, why don't you read up on the history >>of the Holocaust. It began in early 1942. Before that time Jews were >>treated quite horribly.. deported, forced into ghettos, dying of >>disease and starvation, etc... but the actual death camps did not come >>into being until '42. >An interesting issue: When, indeed, did it all begin? Did it >begin in 1922, when a young Hitler spoke of hanging Jews from >the lamp-posts of Munich? Golly gee whiz. A man that splept in the barracks every night while awaiting the time to gain German citizenship speaks out against EXACTLY what were the worldwide Jewish organiztions that later organized an economic boycott of Germany in barely four months. But how many were hung? What actions NOT RHETORIC were taken against Jews before that international boycott? Of course, none. >Did it begin with Kristallnacht? The above is where it started, in response to the international boycott. >Did >it begin when "being Jewish" was officially described as >sufficient rationale for being mentally ill, and thus eligible >for "euthanasia?" If you have a URL for this, fine. Otherwise, please stop making us such nonsense. Someone might be dumb enough to believe you. >Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia, >when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse? How many? What is the number? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:56 PDT 1996 Article: 42560 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:23:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <4pj3h3$et6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:25:39 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388635 alt.politics.libertarian:173377 alt.politics.democrats.d:85775 alt.politics.usa.republican:213934 alt.politics.usa.congress:42966 alt.politics.reform:74534 alt.activism:53113 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319779 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24603 alt.revisionism:42560 "D. Braun" wrote: >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >> >> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing >> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this >> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were >> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death >> >camps... It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won >> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >> >> >As for how the number of 6 million came about... See, the Germans were >> >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process >> >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be >> >"no longer operative," or some low level detailee in the Reichstag >> >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased. >> >> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used >> there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no >> records kept of those who were to gassed immediately. >??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly >documented: records of zyclon "B" manufacture and shipping to the camps; >the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp >survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the >architectural plan for the chambers; etc. >Say it--- are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps >died of natural causes? What? Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps. The documentation of what you claim was all generated by the Soviets who, for example, claimed that cancer was an infectuous disease, and that the Nazis were responsible for the murders of Katyn Woods. As for the gassing there is only contradictory testimony regarding gassing and ZERO physical evidence. Gassing or no, Zyklon B would have been shipped to the camps. The holohuggers hold that the "killing" amount was so low it would not have shown up on the records. There are no documented gas chambers. Descriptions of them from "witenesses" are never good enough to match the currently claimed gas chambers. The "architecutural plan" is hardly more than an artist's conception and better matches a bomb shelter as there is NO literature as to what would match a gas chamber. Other than that, there is even less substance to what remains. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:56 PDT 1996 Article: 42562 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Al Gentile I Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:42:11 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 527 Message-ID: <4pj148$7vl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:44:40 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 =============================================================================== Date: 09-13-93 Time: 11:37a Number: 341 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 177 To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: No Subject: JEWS AND GAS 2/2 250: FN-FSPEECH Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG║Yet NOT ONCE produce one shred of evidence about gas chambers AG║being situated in Dachau which was just outside of Munich "in AG║Germany" and was considered the third worse extermination camp. MK>Uh, Al? Dachau was a concentration camp, not an extermination camp. And out of what book did you get that crap from? The "official" records recorded the following. Auschwitz was the #1 extermination camp followed by Dachau (#2) and Buchenwald (#3) Or do you think that the Germans where going to transport these prisoners a distance of a thousand miles just to execute them when it could be done just as easily in their own camps? From 1943 to 1945 the allied bombers made a shambles of German railroads and major highways. EVERY vehicle and train was desperately needed to tranport Food and military equipment to their soldiers fighting on three major fronts. And I'm not including the essentials needed by the civilian population. And YOU think that the German military were going to ship prisoners all this distance just to be killed in some other camp while desperately needed military supplies remain on the loading areas? You're not stupid, you're totally ignorant". AG║It would stand to reason that if the SS had gas chambers at Auschwitz AG║The worse of all camps, wouldn't they also have had at Dachau? AG║The reason why the author never mention this about Dachau was AG║because it was in allied occupied land and WE could prove that AG║they Never existed in this camp. So he reached out into the AG║unknown with all this crap. because he knew that in civilized AG║society there are moronic idiots such as Kennedy who will AG║believe anything. AG║Matt, the most asinine statement kennedy had posted was were he AG║quoted a section of Auschwitz's SS Commandant Rudolph Hoess Memoirs. MK>Uh, Al? I didn't quote anything from "Death Dealer", the title of the MK>book you are referring to. Have you read it? I have. AG║When I spotted that little gem, I went into hysterical laughter. AG║Hoess, surrender to American forces in early 1946. He was AG║immediately arrested and imprisoned and wasn't released until AG║After the Nuremberg trial where he was exonerated of the charges AG║of gassing camp prisoners. In late 1946 he returned to his AG║hometown which was then in Russian occupied land. Was captured AG║and tried by a Russian People's court, convicted of mass AG║execution of Russian civilians, and in 1947 was publicly hanged at AG║Auschwitz. Now YOU tell me. when was he able to write his memoirs? MK>While he was in prison, Al. You know, the one the Americans kept him MK>in. He was NEVER in prison. That is one of the gems I kept from you. When he surrendered to the Americans he was placed under "house Surveillance" Because he WASN"T to be tried for any crime. He appeared as the prosecutor's witness against his superior officers. After his testimony was given he was arrested under orders of the Russian Prosecutor, General R.A. Rudenko and charged with gassing Russian civilians. His trail lasted TWO days and he was found Innocent because General Rudenko failed to produce any official documentation that these gas chambers existed other then signed statements from a group of Russian officiers. He NEVER wrote anything. And even if he did, who would publish it? The German people didn't want to be reminded of what happen at these camps. and it wasn't until 1949 that the book publishing business reopened, and he was executed in early 1947. The ONLY German who became the "first" Nazi to publish his memoirs was Albert Speer, German Reichs Armaments Minister. And his book was published in "England" in 1966 after being released from prison. from a Twenty years sentence. So if you intend to inject these names, At least know what the hell you're talking about before making a damn fool of yourself. BTW I "STILL" retain all my original notes I took during this period so if you intend on mentioning these names make sure you get all the facts before posting anything about them. MK>I'm going to check that book out from the library again and this time I MK>will be MORE than happy to quote some passages from it for you. Unless, MK>of course, you'd like to drive over to your little library and read it MK>yourself. Your question about "when was he able to write his memoirs?" MK>is your undoing. It shows that you know little about Rudolf Höss. I responded to this in the above. But don't let that stop you. You go right ahead and check in the library. And produce the section where he was "Originally" arrested and how he wrote his memiors (according to you) while in prison. And when you find this book post the year it was written I think you'll find that information on back of the front cover. and also the year it was published and by what "book publishing company". (Continued in the next message) --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-17-93 Time: 10:03a Number: 356 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 180 To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: No Subject: Your "Reputation" 3/3 250: FN-FSPEECH Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MK>you went through thousands of documents. How could you go through MK>documents which didn't exist, according to you? You've stated time and MK>time again that all documentation concerning the camps was destroyed. MK>Yet here you are, stating that you and an unstated number of other MK>soldiers went through THOUSANDS of documents. What documents? Or are MK>you contradicting yourself again? You choose. But choose carefully. Back to your old crap of distorting what I had posted. I had stated "Categorically" that we had found ALL records pertaining to the names of inmates in these camps had been destroyed. I NEVER stated that other official records NOT related to prisoners had been destroyed. YOU injected that part into your message. In fact that's ALL you've been doing, trying to distort my original messages. And the "thousands" of documents we went through were those records we needed to prove who were the HIGH ranking SS officers responsible for issuing orders that caused the death of all these prisoners. Our task was in assisting the Nuremberg Court by accumulating documentation needed in trying these officials for war crimes. And for your information the court NEVER took up the issue of how many prisoners met their death but ONLY who was "responsible". MK>Yep. You accept EVERYTHING (your own word, Al) that "Moses" said, yet MK>now you are calling him a Neo-Nazi. If this is the case, shouldn't you MK>make a retraction, stating that you were wrong and that you do NOT MK>accept as the truth what "Moses" posted? But if you do, then you HAVE MK>to accept as the truth what I've said about the Holocaust. Damn. What MK>a dilemma! But I'm sure you'll either find a way to weasel out of it, MK>or you'll just denounce me again with some more of your rather boring MK>obscenities. That's right he is a Neo-Nazi because he wasn't as much concern in discrediting the claims of the gas chambers as he was in trying to prove that If the Jews lied about this issue then they also lied about the Jews being singled out. And if you failed to recognize that, then I suggest you re-read his message. especially that section about "Anne Frank" what the hell do you think he was doing with that, other then trying to discredit the Jewish claims about this teenager. When you come out with all this unsubstantiated crap about gas chambers, you're giving him the fuel he needed. Because he could produce enough evidence to prove that gas chambers NEVER existed. And if he can do that, (and he did) then he's proving that it was a lie. And all you're doing is helping him Prove that lie by insisting that these gas chambers existed. If Neo-Nazi's can prove that Gas chambers and Anne Frank story are lies, they can now question the holocaust. Not that it never existed, they know better then that, but rather that the Jews are lying when they claim that it was ONLY them who had been marked for extermination. MK>Face it, Al. You've tripped yourself up yet again. And this time, I MK>have the ASCII which shows it. I think the next thing you'll get from MK>me is a repost of one of your April messages. Yes. That should be MK>rather embarrassing for you. You mean the same way you did when you challenged my statement that the records from these camps had been destroyed, then later posted the message that the SS destroyed these records. Or the Memoirs that Auschwitz Commandant Hoess wrote that you READ. Yet DON'T exist, because he NEVER wrote them. Or eye witness reports that were published 20 odd years After the war. Or witnesses the author claimed were found in warsaw. When history has proven that Hitler had EVERY single Jew, Man, woman, and child driven OUT of warsaw. Is this what you call tripping me up? The only reason I even responded to you was because I realized that in your stupidity you were assisting Neo-Nazi's undermine the holocaust. And the reason I responded in the vile manner that I did was because that's all your brain can understand. I ignored you for over two months because It's a waste of time trying to converse with a moronic idiot. But if you noticed I have NOT responded in the same way towards Jimmy Pearson, and that's because unlike you he has a brain in his head, I NEVER under estimated his intelligence only his discretion in the manner in which he responded. The difference between the two of you is that Pearson didn't act out of viciousness. He was trying to be humorous and was more concern laughing with me then AT me. Jimmy Pearson doesn't have to prove anything to anybody, Skip over his F... words and you'll find the major portion of his messages quite interesting and intelligent. He doesn't rely on distortions, Lies, and exaggerations like you do. And I respect him for that. In contrast I hold you in contempt. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-13-93 Time: 02:36p Number: 557 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 335 To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: No Subject: On Mr. Gentile... 2/2 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG║MK>program several months ago. However, I did experience them. Are you AG║MK>going to question the validity of my experiences? AG║Question it??? *I* challenge it. I stated constantly that we AG║interviewed eye witnesses because ALL the records at these camps AG║had been destroyed. And YOU called me a liar. Yet in your AG║previous message you had posted. You quoted a section of that AG║bullshit historical book you had read that the SS had destroyed AG║ALL records prior to allied forces over running these camps. Now AG║whose the fucking ass sucking pussy licking liar? You low life AG║scum bag. you can't even get you own story straight, let alone AG║challenge mine. MK>And you stated that those witnesses were too mentally shattered to give MK>you coherent answers. Or do you deny ever saying this? Answer MK>carefully, because I DO have a set of your messages from back in April MK>archived. I'll be more than happy to drag them out. You're still back to that bullshit again aren't you? I NEVER said they were mentally "SHATTERED" I said their testimony was unreliable. They had been tortured, beaten, and starved. and if you go to any library and look up a book that contains only photographs of these inmates you can still see the fear in their eyes. Even when we liberated the camps. they knew we were friends but they still "cringed" with terror at the sight of our uniforms. If you took one of these inmates into a private interrogation room and closed the door they would sit in the chair shaking with fear staring at the closed door. We didn't have the same opportunity of obtaining from them a reliable account of what happen at these camps as did so many others who interviewed them years after they had been released. Our time was limited. And we dealt with what we had in the best way we could. And the question of gas chambers never came up until some smart ass American Army Major by the name of Rosenbaum came into our office all excited over what some prisoner had reported to him about inmates being gassed. He couldn't produce this alleged witness. which left us with no other alternative but to fly to Munich and make a personal examination of each and every building at Dachau. We found crematories, Tanks still filled with a gasoline oil mixture, but we found no gas or ANY equipment for the storage of gas or pumps that could be used in use of gasing prisoners. And that's where the "rumor" of gas chambers first started. I NEVER mentioned Auschwitz because I have no "personal knowledge" about that camp. Nor did anyone else outside of the Russians themselves. And I can't believe that if these gas chambers did in fact exist that the Russians would have remain silent. Why they would of had a field day with that little bit of information. One of the Major problems at the Nuremberg trials was the Russian Prosecutor General R.A.Rudenko who kept insisting that "ALL" these German war criminals be tried for acts they committed against Russian civilians. And you can bet your ass if he could have produced ONE shred of evidence that Gas chambers existed at Auschwitz he would of had a field day with that. MK>You stated that when your company entered one of the camps, you found an MK>administration building which had row upon row of books containing MK>names. Your company moved out of the camp to continue fighting. When MK>you returned to the camp a week or so later, those books were missing MK>and were never seen again. You later presumed them to have been MK>destroyed. Destroyed by whom, Al? The Allied authorities? The MK>prisoners themselves? Who did it, Al? Answer carefully. I may have MK>THAT message archived, too. And if I don't, maybe Pat Adams does. I'll MK>ask him... Well why don't you have that message archived and prove the liar that you are. I NEVER said we found rows of "Books" containing names. I had said we found many "CABINETS" in the Commandants office which contained thousands of individual files of inmates. And two days later when we came back to help out with the clean up we had discovered that these files had been destroyed. And that was reported to me by my sergeant who had been ordered to stand watch over the camp until the rear echelon officials brought in the medical and service people. He personally took me to a 50 gallon drum and showed me ashes of what remained of the files we had originally found when we entered the camp. And that's why I have always said the were destroyed instead of "they turned up missing". --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-13-93 Time: 04:55p Number: 560 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 337 To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: No Subject: On Mr. Gentile... (#2 2/2 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG║fucking slime ball. MK>I don't play games with the Holocaust, Al. I don't lie about it. I MK>don't disseminate half-truths about it. I don't spread misconceptions MK>about it. I'm serious as a heart attack about it. But I don't expect MK>you to believe me. You're so caught up in trying to hate me that if I MK>told you that your name was Al Gentile you'd go nuts trying to prove me MK>wrong. You don't play games with the Holocaust? What the hell you think you have been doing. You contradict, yourself you mention names of SS personnel which you know NOTHING about. You speak of Memoirs which have NEVER existed. You twist and distort my original messages. You make allegations based upon events that happen in a restricted zone, and then can't produce one shred of evidence other then the so called historical books of authors who investigated and wrote the stories some twenty odd years after the war ended. And you speak of eye witness who in all probability left Europe many years before these alleged historians ever came to Europe. How do you trace witnesses down whose names that originally stored in these camps where totally destroyed. How do you find a witness if you have no name or address to guide you. What do you do? walk up to every man women and child and ask them, "are you a former inmate of Auschwitz" come on big mouth. tell me how do they find these witnesses twenty years after the war ended? MK>And drop the obscenity schtick. It doesn't impress me, and it does your MK>reputation more harm than it does mine. For those who dislike me in this conference *I* couldn't care less what they think. To those whom I respect, and understand that the use of vulgarity wasn't started by me, are the only ones I care about. When you began flaming me with those F....ing this and F...ing that You wasn't too worried about your reputation was you? So why should I be worried about giving you a taste of your own medicine? Where we differ is you think the F... word is acceptable. and *I* don't. AS far as I'm concern any vulgar language is unacceptable. And I'll gladly discontinue the use of it when others stop using these words and stop this flaming and insulting other members. MK>I expected as much. You demand proof from others, but when someone asks MK>you to back up your statements you refuse. Fine. Did I mention your MK>reputation? With that kind of attitude, you don't have a reputation. You want proof of what our committee accumplished? Well how about the following. Alfred Rosenberg Death Hans Frank Death Wilhelm Frick Death Julius Streicher Death Walter Funk Life Imprisonment Eric Raeder Life Imprisonment Baldur Von Schrirach Twenty years Albert Speer Tewnty Years Constantin Von Neurath Fifteen Years. Karl Doenitz Ten Years The others who were tried were investigated by a different group and while the worked independent of our committee, we did share information that was important to cases that belonged to each individual group. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:57 PDT 1996 Article: 42563 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Al Gentile II Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:43:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 603 Message-ID: <4pj16p$7vl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:46:01 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 =============================================================================== Date: 08-14-93 Time: 01:06p Number: 4119 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 3573 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG> posts or you weren't around when they appeared. When I AG> came into this conference I introduced an isuue on the AG> Holocaust. My message contained only those events that I AG> had personally experience and observed. In spite of this I AG> recieved two answers that were loaded with F... you F.... AG> lying F...F...F... I don't like or use that word and *I* AG> don't approve of its use. And I re-laid that message to AG> these two characters. Their response? "double the amount AG> of F...words". MG> Since others were not here how about posting some messages MG>with the same original content and see if we can get a brawl MG>going. Nothing is better for an adrenalin rush than jackasses on MG>the boards. Matt, I'm sure you have read my previous posts on this subject, but I will give you a digested detail of these messages. During WWII while serving with the 84th Infantry division, my Company liberated two concentration camps. One in Krefeld, and the other outside of Hanover. And I "personally" witnessed the aftermath of the Holocaust. At wars end I was one of a few allied service men who were reassigned to England, to investigate and present our findings to the War Crime Court at Nuremberg. What we discovered were the records of all the inmates that were exterminated and those still in the camp had been destroyed. (and NOT by SS Guards) We interviewd both former prisoners and SS guards. and we were able to present a clear picture of the horrors that the SS had inflicted on these prisoners. We also visited these camps and uncovered that three foot thick concrete buildings had been constructed with sprinkling system in the inside of the building, Along side of these building there were large tanks containing a mixture of Gas and oil. These sites were used as "Crematories" for the thousands of inmates who were dying daily. (the twenty individual constructed crematories were unable to handle the amount of prisoners who were dying daily.) At NO camp did we find any building that was being used in "gassing" the inmates. And even after all the investigations that has been conducted since the war ended NO ONE has been able to present ANY evidence that these gas chambers existed. Through our efforts, a few Commandants and SS guards were tried, convicted and executed, for the crimes they had committed at these camps. The only area we were unable to examine were those camps which were situated in Russian held territory. They allowed NO allies into this area. And even to this day we still have NO information on how many camps were in the area, the amount of prisoners, or the total amount of those who died in these camps. Basically what I was trying to convey over was that fact that the holocaust did in fact "EXIST" and my only complaint was that there were more emphases made about the 6 million Jews who died, while ignoring the death of the 30 odd million non Jews who had also died. In every single message I had posted about the holocaust. I made a point to clearly establish one FACT, that I was only speaking of my "experiences and what *I* had observed". Well it seems that two members took excepting to what I had posted and began jumping all over me because, (According to them) "Who the hell was I to post my experiences and expect everyone to believe them because I was an eye witness to these events." And that there were others who also were witnesses to what happen. Yet they NEVER once produced the evidence of these witnesses, who they were or if they were indeed former inmates. But responded by the following, F...you, you F...ing this and F...ing that. and in general just a bunch of responses that began and ended with the words F..... and F....ing. I understood that for personal reasons they wanted to flame me so they resorted in using foul language. But what angered me was. if I was lying, and they proved that, wouldn't it also question my "EYE WITNESS" account of the holocaust? Matt, here in the bbs, we are beginning to see a couple of Neo-Nazi's posting anti-Semitic comments. And by what these two stupid idiots, (Mike Kennedy and Jimmy Pearson) were doing is giving these Neo-Nazi's the fuel they need in trying to discredit the existence of the holocaust. By slandering MY account of what I "personally witnessed," they are in essence stating that I'm lying and therefore these Neo-Nazi's are correct when they claim that the holocaust is a Jewish conspiracy. I don't know if they're trying to be cute or they are trying to put me down, but what ever the reason, They are ending up into the camp of these Neo-Nazi's. And I can now almost guarantee you that those two Neo-Nazi's that had previously posted their anti-Semitic messages did so because of the f...ing comment that both Kennedy and Pearson had posted in response to my messages. Because what these two jerks did was question the existence of the holocaust. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-02-93 Time: 11:45a Number: 212 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 4148 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conf: FN-RUSHL (255) Direction: FORWARD AG> subject, but I will give you a digested detail of these AG> messages. And I AG> "personally" witnessed the aftermath of the Holocaust. At AG> wars end I was one of a few allied service men who were AG> reassigned to England, to investigate and present our AG> findings to the War Crime Court at Nuremberg. What we AG> discovered were the records of all the inmates that were AG> exterminated and those still in the camp had been AG> destroyed. (and NOT by SS Guards) We interviewd both AG> former prisoners and SS guards. and we were able to present AG> a clear picture of the horrors that the SS had inflicted on AG> these prisoners. MG> Question, who did destroy them? That's a question that could be answered, but could never be proven. My Opinion? A American Army Major by the name of Rosenbaum. (I'm speaking of only one camp that we liberated) My suspicions were that while examining these records he discovered that records proved conclusively that "five" times the amount of Non-Jews had been killed, and he didn't want any information released that would indicate that the Jews had NOT been singled out. I can't speak of how the records were destroyed in those camps that were liberated in Russian occupied territory, because all the Russians ever reported to our committee was that they had been destroyed. But I don't believe that it was done by retreating SS troops. The visible horror of these camps were far worse then anything the records could disclose so why destroy them? Besides after the battle of the bulge the best of Hitler's military had been distroyed and once we crossed the Rhine river, the infantry were loaded on tanks and trucks, and we "blitzkrieged" through German so fast that the SS guards didn't have time to even excape let alone destroy records. But all of this isn't the issue Matt, My dispute with Kennedy is because he's a stupid, pea brain idiot who tried to discredit what I had posted, without any facts to substantiate his claims. When he first responded to my original post about the holocaust it consisted ONLY of..F....ing this ...F... in that....F... you etc. at NO point did he present any evidence proving I had lied. He couldn't because he had absolute no knowledge about the holocaust. It was AFTER I had ignored him for over two months that he finally went to a library to read up about the holocaust. And then he selected a book that was authored 20 odd years After the war had ended. When he finally convinced himself that he had uncovered evidence to disprove my claims. He post a message describing a number of death camps In Russian Held Territory. Matt, at wars end Russia dropped an "iron curtain" in every land they occupied, So where could this information come from except in the imagination of some idiots mind. But what infuriated me more was he Knew that NO ONE could prove these claims one way or the other so he felt secured that by the mere mention of these camps that would prove HIS investigative powers. How do you disapprove a negative? How can anyone write a book about camps that were restricted >from public view? Yet this is the information that Kennedy is calling "historical" documentation. What I find humorist is his comments that the SS First converted Barracks into gas chambers, then Bunkers, and lastly they constructed these Buildings. And what does he present as "proof" The remains of collapsed buildings. He describes in detail the equipment used in pumping the gas into these buildings yet never once disclose where this equipment is or are on display. He mentions in "Detail" the alleged gas that was used. And at the same time he admits that the Germans were experiment with this chemical in an attempt to discover a faster method for "de-lousing" these prisoners. He couldn't make up his mind on anything. Believe me Matt, the Germans still had gas that was stored away since the end of WWI. the one thing they didn't need to do was discover a NEW gas. Again, he originally "cursed" me out when I stated that the records had ALL been destroyed. And in his last post he quoted the book and stated "The SS destroy all records before escaping the on coming allied armies" Am I the liar? or is he the liar? How can he in one message claim that I lied about these records, yet TWO months later comes out with the statement that the SS had destroyed these records. He talks out of two sides of his mouth. Again I claimed that WE NEVER found any gas chambers in these camps. He responds that the Commandant of Auschwitz Admitted that camps existed. Yet this man was tried in Nuremberg for this very act. And was 'Exornarated" because WE failed to produce ONE shred of evidence proving the existence of gas chambers. The prosecutions whole case rested on the alleged testimony of so-called eye-witnesses. Which the defense ripped apart and proved it false. And this what that pea brain calls (Continued in the next message) --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-02-93 Time: 02:58p Number: 213 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 4148 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS (#2) 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Continued from the previous message) verified Proof? I ignored this shit head for over two months and I could of done it for two years. During the period I ignored him he continued posting these outrages, undocumented, exaggerated bullshit, and it still didn't bother me. What got my anger finally to a breaking point was when I read a message in this conference from a Neo-Nazi and I realized that the crap that Kennedy was shoveling out gave this anti-semitic piece of shit the excuse he needed to discredit the existence of the holocaust. These people are not stupid, they know that every death camp in Russian held territory was off limits to the western world. And that the Russians NEVER released any of this information. So All they have to do is challenge Kennedy to "Prove" these allegations. And HE CAN'T. Now, the Neo-Nazi's have the weapon they need to discredit the holocaust. All because of the moronic crap that Kennedy had posted. All they had to say was..."prove it". The book that kennedy claims he got his information from, sure as hell couldn't prove a thing. And there isn't ONE Neo-Nazi that doesn't know that. Kennedy is just being a wise ass. he's out to flame me by trying to show that my observations of the holocaust was bullshit, And he really believed that he was impressing everyone of his intelligence. When in reality he was fueling Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi's campaign in proving that the holocaust never existed. That moronic, idiotical, bastard, Kennedy got so carried away with trying to get at me that all he accomplished was giving these Neo-Nazi's an excuse to post their filth in this and probably other conferences thanks to Kennedy and that turd filled skull of his. Matt, I hate that son of a bitch. I spent my life in bringing the horrors that happened in these camps to the people. I want the world to remember and never forget what happened at these camps. I've written thousands of articles on this subject and I've giving countless of speaches describing in detail the inhuman brutality that WE had uncovered. This has been my whole life work. And now here comes a low life, scum swallowing, ass licking bastard, like Kennedy, Who tries to undermine my efforts. by posting information that is an absolute lie. For what reason? Just to flame me? There is a hundred ways he could do that. without resorting to lies about the holocaust. But I guess it's a waste of time trying to convince him of the damage he has caused. The turd that is in his skull has pushed out the little brains that he originally had. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-20-93 Time: 04:09p Number: 805 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 524 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS (#2) 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG> about the holocaust. But I guess it's a waste of time AG> trying to convince him of the damage he has caused. The AG> turd that is in his skull has pushed out the little brains AG> that he originally had. MG> I have a fair idea what it takes to earn the honor you have MG>received in Israel. I do not like the shit either. I found it MG>flat out impossible to even ask a question about the details of MG>the Holocaust without being called an anti-semite (on another MG>thread no different that questioning one word of Genesis.) I MG>found the response interesting but that was years ago. I MG>learned. It started with questioning the US support of Israel MG>== antisemitic. So the next time I did it was was loaded for MG>bear and slowed down the opposition and then someone accused me MG>of denying the holocaust because I denied Israel was a military MG>asset to the US. Matt, that happened a few years ago in another network, And If you recall *I* came to your defense after a couple of those characters tried to put the anti-Semitic brand on you. I didn't believe then, and I don't now, that you have an ounce of Anti-Semitism in your whole body. Nor do I believe you're a racist, or bigot. You are an open minded man who isn't afraid to express his views or opinions. And if more people in this conference would take a good look at many of your post they'd understand that your ONLY fault is you speak the truth as you see it. MG> The dam broke. Just by the accusations, snide remarks, and MG>other things I could describe most unpleasantly. What did it MG>inspire in me? Challenge the assertations. A couple of days ago MG>a certain AG from Canada sent me a 10 part message on the use of MG>gas which I proceeded to take apart just for the fun of it. If you're speaking of Alec. He and I also went down that same path. The only difference is that Alec. knows that I will come to the defense of the Jews much quicker then the Jews themselves. Being called an Anti-Semitic doesn't bother me. I know it's not true and nothing anyone can say to me is going bother me. I discovered years ago that those who accuse others of anti-semitism are usually one themselves. And Matt, in my time I met Jews who were anti-semitic. The debate going on between Kennedy and I was one of the issues that I introduced in that other conference, and I was accused of being anti-semitic, and the funny thing is that Alec knew better and it was HE who came to my defense. MG> I started by saying they vanished, they are gone, all the MG>evidence points culpability but that death in such camps was so MG>common it was a better trade off to give less food and let MG>disease take its course rather than pay extra for gas and special MG>facilities and all the rest. That's exactly what they were doing. They couldn't be bothered executing anyone. they didn't have to. All they had to do was stop feeding them (which they did) And if that didn't kill them off the disease from all those dead rotting bodies that were laying around for month would sure as hell do a quicker job then any gas chamber would. MG> What I am most amused with is that NO ONE can have died of MG>camp conditions, disease primarily (US civil war camps are a good MG>enough example.) Death by disease? Impossible! It was gas MG>only. The issue isn't gas Matt, it never was. A small group of jewish radicals wanted to make it look as though it was ONLY the Jews that were singled out,. So they came out with this gas garbage to show the world that ONLY the Jews were being gassed. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. MG> In the Canadian AG example I had the opportunity to point MG>out in the same post a conflict between a plainly stated reason MG>to choose that kind of gas (local experiment) and then an MG>implication that it was chosen because it was a pesticide. That MG>kind of crap is supposed to be convincing? MG> I saved the response if you are interested. I am not MG>particularly interested in defending it. It was top of the head MG>and only one reference but damn straight you don't shove ill MG>conceived garbage in my direction and call it proof I am MG>anti-semitic. Those accusations are only a sign of ignorance. Do you know how (Continued in the next message) --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-20-93 Time: 04:09p Number: 806 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 524 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS (#2) (#2) 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Continued from the previous message) this whole gas bullshit really started? Everytime a new batch of prisoners were delivered to one of these camps the guards would order them (men women and children) to strip naked, and then they moved them into a "de-Lousing" building where they sprayed barrels of this chemicals on them. Naturally the stuff is going to get into your nose and mouth and you're choke on the damn stuff. When the doors were opened everyone ran out choking like crazy. Well one day, and no one knows when, A group had come out of the building choking like crazy yelling that they were gassing them. Well their screams were picked up by others and it spread like wild flower throughout the whole camp. When we examined Dachau. they prisoners pointed out four different buildings that they believed were being used as gas chambers. BTW one of the building happened to be the camp Commandants office. MG> From my point of view, I at no time spent any time MG>questioning the holocaust (I read those questioning it, they are MG>irrational) until I was called anti-semitic. By god those folks MG>are going to pay for it in spades. I accept to higher cause to MG>accept their allegations. Matt, it may not happen in my generation, or even yours, but mark my words, they world will some day become fed up with all this finger pointing and accusations. and when that day comes (and I believe it will) It will be the Jewish people who will suffer the most. I think they better wake up and put this whole issue to sleep. People don't like being accused of things that they are innocent of, and unless it stops, your going to see more and more Neo-Nazi's groups being organized. and God help this Country when that happens because they hate every race, religion, and nationality others then their's. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== Date: 09-19-93 Time: 02:38p Number: 507 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 317 To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: No Subject: JEWS AND GAS 1/2 250: FN-FSPEECH Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG║I have stated and will continue to state is "THAT THERE WERE "NO" AG║GAS CHAMBERS AT THESE CAMPS". And you have NOT produced any AG║evidence to prove otherwise except that crap about "collapsed AG║buildings" which ironically were discovered some twenty odd AG║years "after" the war had ended. Take my suggestion instead of AG║taking those nigger cocks in your mouth, try taking it up your AG║ass maybe the scum will reach and clear up that turd filled AG║skull of yours. MK>You have never looked at one reference I have given you. You won't, MK>because you cannot face the truth. The people who have put up with your MK>obscenity-filled monologues know that you are wrong, wrong, wrong. You MK>have consistently claimed that, other than Auschwitz, there were no MK>camps in eastern Poland, and that Auschwitz never had any gas chambers. MK>You are so full of shit that it ain't funny, you old fuck. Why should I read that propaganda crap? Only moronic idiots like you would accept the comments of authors who NEVER wrote anything about the holocaust until 20 odd years AFTER the war ended. And you are the biggest bullshit artist in the BBS. I have stated CONSISTENTLY that Russia had barred us from entering or examining those camps in their territory. If WE weren't allowed in Poland to visit Auschwitz, how the fuck could we have visted any other camp in Poland. And what I find quite comical is how you keep bringing up these camps that were situated in Russian held territory, as PROOF that *I* had NEVER visited them. Of Course I hadn't visited them I've said that in EVERYONE of my post yet you keep going back to that same issue as though you are proving that I'm lying because *I* was Never at these camps. When is it going to penetrate that shit filled skull of yours that *I* personally was NEVER at ANY camp that was under Russian control. Yet, I have stated "consistently" that for over thirty years the Russians allowed No outsider into their area. This means that NO ONE had any first hand knowledge of what happened at Auschwitz or any other camp in Russian held territory. And in spite of this YOU keep bringing up the issue of THESE camps. AG║MK>IF you had the ability (which I doubt, due to the condition of your worn AG║MK>out neuron) to do the research I've done, you would never have said AG║MK>that. But you don't appear to have the ability, so I forgive you. AG║MK>Ignorance, in your case, IS forever. What research are you talking about? Auschwitz SS Commandant Rudolf Hoess, His prison term, and Memoirs. Which *I* rammed up you ass. And was found NOT GUILTY of gassing prisoners or when I produced the fact that he had NEVER served a day in prison, And that he was executed by the Russians in early 1947 And NEVER wrote his Memoirs. Or that one about the Jewish stone mason the SS went into Warsaw to find so that he could construct the Gas Chamber. A few years AFTER the Germans had moved EVERY SINGLE Jew out of Warsaw. Or After calling me a liar when I stated that the records of the inmates in these camps had been destroyed, then a few weeks later you posted the message that SS soldiers had destroyed these records prior to the allies entering these camps. Is this the research you're talking about? AG║And that's the major difference between the two of us. You're AG║reading the crap about the holocausdt from writers who were AG║never at these sites until twenty odd years After the war ended AG║While in contrast *I* was there. I assisted in the liberation of AG║two of these camps. *I* was in a group of soldiers who AG║investigated these camps. And that's the differences between AG║you and *I* you fucking misformed syphilitic fetus. MK>You never visited a single death camp, asshole. You were at two, count MK>'em TWO, concentration camps in Germany. And I could care less about MK>whether a writer visited even ONE site. They have themselves either MK>interviewed the people who lived or worked in those death camps, or MK>they've researched the interviews which others have taken. You have MK>not. I don't give a good goddam about two CONCENTRATION camps which you MK>may or may not have seen. I'm not talking about those, dickwad. I'm MK>talking about, and HAVE BEEN talking about something very much MK>different. Yet you are so fucking stupid that you have never paid one MK>bit of attention to that fact. I am talking about fucking EXTERMINATION MK>camps. Let me type that a bit more slowly for you-- Twisting my messages again aren't you? I Originally stated MY Infantry Company had "LIBERATED" Two Concentration camps. I NEVER posted which other camps I had visited because that question was NEVER asked. But for your information WE did examine the following. Dachau, outside of Munich, Buchenwald, outside of Weimar, Mauthausen, outside of Linz in Austria, And Belsen. MK>E X T E R M I N A T I O N C A M P S. Get the picture now, shitstain? MK>You have been harping on about something of which you know absolutely MK>NOTHING. And if you had even ONE working neuron, you would shut up NOW MK>and cut your losses. Because, Al, you are in well over your head, and MK>this shit is deep. (Continued in the next message) --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:58 PDT 1996 Article: 42564 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Al Gentile III Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:45:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 78 Message-ID: <4pj1ah$7vl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:48:01 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 =============================================================================== Date: 11-05-93 Time: 02:26p Number: 1275 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 831 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: Just a note... 250: FN-FSPEECH Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MK> And you really should drop this thing you have about MK> publication dates. They really aren't terribly important. MK> If they were, your notes from 1945, which were never MK> published anywhere, would be completely worthless. MK> BTW, Höss' memoirs were originally published in 1961. The MK> 1992 publication is a new translation. But you already MK> knew that. You read the foreword, didn't you? MG> And just what might be the EXACT title of this book? MG> Later we will get around to why this "confession" was MG>insufficient to result in a conviction. Matt, the man is a total idiot, Hoess NEVER wrote his memoirs, he never had the time, nor would he had stuck his neck out at Nuremberg. And the name of the commandant was Hoess NOT Hoss.. *I* looked up that book and NO WHERE in the introduction or in the book does there appear "any" comment that Commandant Rudolf Hoess ever wrote the book. And even if he had. Neither Germany nor Russain Publishers would have touched that book with a ten foot pole. This moronic asshole, never even knew that Hoess was Exonerated by the Nuremberg court until *I* had mentioned it. I proved him a liar with every comment he ever posted about the holocaust. As an example, when *I* stated that the camp "personnel" records had been destroyed, He called me a liar yet less then a month later he posted a message that the SS had "destroyed" these records. He first claimed that the Germans were experimenting with delousing chemicals in trying to find an effective gas to use against these prisoners, And after I shoved that lie down his throat, He came out with that Cyanide bullshit. But what was more remarkable he continued to inject Auschwitz in all his arguments using those "alleged" eye witnesses as proof, when it was common knowledge that the Russians "NEVER" released any information about this camp nor did they allow any inspection of this camp until many years AFTER the war ended and they had the opportunity to construct building on that site claiming they were gas chambers, because they wanted to attract the tourist trade, for those millions of American Dollars they were able to pocket. I no longer have to prove my case, the Russians did that for me. A few weeks ago they had released a KGB report about Auschwitz which coincided with what *I* had ALWAYS claimed. That the only information that the Russians ever presented to our committee were documents signed by Russians officers claiming that Hitler was gassing "Russians Civilians". And this is the exact report that they have now released to the rest of the world. So the bullshit artist has been all these so-called historians and their "alleged" eye witnesses, which that moronic idiot, Kennedy kept quoting in all his messages. BTW if you take the time to visit the library and pick up the book "death camp" by Rudolf Hoss, you'll discover that it was published in 1992 and is a "FIRST EDITION" so where does this other book allegedly authored by Commandant Rudolf Hoess in 1961 come from? It seems that the asshole Kennedy wants us to believe that Commandant Hoess wrote his memoirs on or about 1946, (before his execution) and it was stored away for 14 years before being published? By who, The Russians? This crap has come from the same bullshit artist who claimed that the Germans used "COKE" in cremating the dead prisoners. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:59 PDT 1996 Article: 42565 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Al Gentile IV Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:46:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 146 Message-ID: <4pj1co$7vl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:49:12 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 =============================================================================== Date: 08-14-93 Time: 01:06p Number: 4119 From: AL GENTILE Refer: 3573 To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL Recvd: Yes Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS 255: FN-RUSHL Status: Public ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AG> posts or you weren't around when they appeared. When I AG> came into this conference I introduced an isuue on the AG> Holocaust. My message contained only those events that I AG> had personally experience and observed. In spite of this I AG> recieved two answers that were loaded with F... you F.... AG> lying F...F...F... I don't like or use that word and *I* AG> don't approve of its use. And I re-laid that message to AG> these two characters. Their response? "double the amount AG> of F...words". MG> Since others were not here how about posting some messages MG>with the same original content and see if we can get a brawl MG>going. Nothing is better for an adrenalin rush than jackasses on MG>the boards. Matt, I'm sure you have read my previous posts on this subject, but I will give you a digested detail of these messages. During WWII while serving with the 84th Infantry division, my Company liberated two concentration camps. One in Krefeld, and the other outside of Hanover. And I "personally" witnessed the aftermath of the Holocaust. At wars end I was one of a few allied service men who were reassigned to England, to investigate and present our findings to the War Crime Court at Nuremberg. What we discovered were the records of all the inmates that were exterminated and those still in the camp had been destroyed. (and NOT by SS Guards) We interviewd both former prisoners and SS guards. and we were able to present a clear picture of the horrors that the SS had inflicted on these prisoners. We also visited these camps and uncovered that three foot thick concrete buildings had been constructed with sprinkling system in the inside of the building, Along side of these building there were large tanks containing a mixture of Gas and oil. These sites were used as "Crematories" for the thousands of inmates who were dying daily. (the twenty individual constructed crematories were unable to handle the amount of prisoners who were dying daily.) At NO camp did we find any building that was being used in "gassing" the inmates. And even after all the investigations that has been conducted since the war ended NO ONE has been able to present ANY evidence that these gas chambers existed. Through our efforts, a few Commandants and SS guards were tried, convicted and executed, for the crimes they had committed at these camps. The only area we were unable to examine were those camps which were situated in Russian held territory. They allowed NO allies into this area. And even to this day we still have NO information on how many camps were in the area, the amount of prisoners, or the total amount of those who died in these camps. Basically what I was trying to convey over was that fact that the holocaust did in fact "EXIST" and my only complaint was that there were more emphases made about the 6 million Jews who died, while ignoring the death of the 30 odd million non Jews who had also died. In every single message I had posted about the holocaust. I made a point to clearly establish one FACT, that I was only speaking of my "experiences and what *I* had observed". Well it seems that two members took excepting to what I had posted and began jumping all over me because, (According to them) "Who the hell was I to post my experiences and expect everyone to believe them because I was an eye witness to these events." And that there were others who also were witnesses to what happen. Yet they NEVER once produced the evidence of these witnesses, who they were or if they were indeed former inmates. But responded by the following, F...you, you F...ing this and F...ing that. and in general just a bunch of responses that began and ended with the words F..... and F....ing. I understood that for personal reasons they wanted to flame me so they resorted in using foul language. But what angered me was. if I was lying, and they proved that, wouldn't it also question my "EYE WITNESS" account of the holocaust? Matt, here in the bbs, we are beginning to see a couple of Neo-Nazi's posting anti-Semitic comments. And by what these two stupid idiots, (Mike Kennedy and Jimmy Pearson) were doing is giving these Neo-Nazi's the fuel they need in trying to discredit the existence of the holocaust. By slandering MY account of what I "personally witnessed," they are in essence stating that I'm lying and therefore these Neo-Nazi's are correct when they claim that the holocaust is a Jewish conspiracy. I don't know if they're trying to be cute or they are trying to put me down, but what ever the reason, They are ending up into the camp of these Neo-Nazi's. And I can now almost guarantee you that those two Neo-Nazi's that had previously posted their anti-Semitic messages did so because of the f...ing comment that both Kennedy and Pearson had posted in response to my messages. Because what these two jerks did was question the existence of the holocaust. --- ■ DeLuxeř 1.20 #190bt ■ =============================================================================== From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:00 PDT 1996 Article: 42567 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book? Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:00:44 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 97 Message-ID: <4pj26p$rs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pgdhg$cg0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pijft$mu0@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:03:05 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: > >> > I checked. It wasn't. You have never given a citation to either the >> >indictment or the judgment of conviction. There was a bald statement that he >was >> >"acquited" and then retried in Poland. In fact, he was convicted by the IMT. > >> Fine. You checked. What did you check? Where is the reference? >> What does it say? Please be specific. > The judgment of the acquittal in the published records of the IMT. They >are rather easy to find. For the umteenth time - DO YOUR OWN DAMN >RESEARCH. Excuse me, but I posted with IMT references. I am simply interested in your source. Of course you have none. That is why you do not respond, killfile challenged one. >> As to your "where convicted" routine, what I posted was with IMT >> references to the conviction. > It was not. Your citation a reference to an exhibit -- that is a document >used at the trial -- not to the judgment. Your error is your own. Sorry about that, killfile challeenged. >> > I.e. Giwer finally did some research, found an account of thrial and >> >found it did not agree with his invention. He therefore describes it as >incomplete. >> >Most "scientists" collect their data before they announce conclusions. Giwer >> >pursues a different methodology and then whines when the data disagrees with >> >him. > >> Unlike you, any attorney would know that the omission of the >> disposition of the case is an incomplete recounting of any trial. >> But then I would not make such a claim on your behalf. > I have not seen you source. Are you claiming that it did not note the >charges against him and note that he was found guilty of those charges? Are you claiming someone unable to master a killfile is bright enough to contribute to this discusion? If so, why? >> I have already posted the IMT references to it. You are the one >> out in the cold. > Keep repeating the nonsense that an evidentiary exhibit is a final >judgment. It does wonders for your credibility. That is not what I said in the least, But you know that. >> > No. They used his own memoranda among other items of evidence. >> >None was "Soviet generated." >> >> The Soviets were responsible for the prosecution of all crimes >> that happened in the territories they liberated. Who are you >> claiming generated the details? > You are changing the subject. We are talking about "details" but the >documentary evidence -- including his own memoranda -- used as evidence against >Pohl. What is the basis for your claim that those memoranda were "generated" by >the Soviets? If you have nothing more than a claim you invented, stop making the >silly claim. We are talking about Soviet evidence and we know the Soviets were capable of demanding death sentences for crimes they knew they had committed. That is, to say the least, a tainted prosecution. But then any honest attorney knows that. You, however, do not appear to know that. Any honest attorney would admit that if the SAME prosecutor who had lied in a failed attempt to indict people on a FALSE charge such as Katyn Woods were then to demand indictment on other changes any competent defense counsel would seek to have the bastard disbarred. But of course you would not do that. You would accept all of his requests for indictment equally. You are either not a criminal counsel or you are lucky you have not been sued into a job at McDs for rank incompetance. Why not just admit you are a corporate attorney (at best) and have no idea what you are talking about? It will make you look less foolish than your inability to master a killfile. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:01 PDT 1996 Article: 42569 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Some of the Giwer Troll's Lies: Initial Draft Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:02:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4pj295$rs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pinr3$1udu@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:04:21 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >said: >> >>This is a very initial draft of a file containing outright >>lies posted to alt.revisionism by Matt Giwer. >>Giwer claims to have an IQ of 163. He is also, currently, >>the most active "Holocaust revisionist" on the group. Giwer >>routinely tells other posters here "remember, to me you are like a >>certifiably retarded person to the average person". >Danny, I am surprised. You missed the first lie. Surely the claim to a 163 >IQ is one of the biggest whoppers the Giwer-troll has ever told. >[rest deleted] >One thing that is not a lie. >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt Obviously, McFly, there is still no one in there. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:01 PDT 1996 Article: 42573 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:41:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 60 Message-ID: <4pj84d$3mm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pj4j7$ej8@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:44:13 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388659 alt.politics.libertarian:173386 alt.politics.democrats.d:85784 alt.politics.usa.republican:213954 alt.politics.usa.congress:42976 alt.politics.reform:74545 alt.activism:53122 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319797 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24608 alt.revisionism:42573 ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >In <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >writes: >> >>ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >> >>>The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing >>>squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this >>>inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were >>>killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death >>>camps... It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won >>>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >> >>>As for how the number of 6 million came about... See, the Germans were >>>big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process >>>along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be >>>"no longer operative," or some low level detailee in the Reichstag >>>accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased. >> >> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used >>there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no >>records kept of those who were to gassed immediately. >> >> But then there are stories for all occasions and they are all >>equally true. >> >>>It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of >>>crap, questioning the Holocaust. They'd be more honest if they simply >>>admitted it and said they're only sorry the job wasn't finished. But >>>such honesty would be against their nature. Nazis are pathalogical >>>liars by nature.. >> >> What you appear to fail to realize is that the only thing in >>question are these mass exterminations and not the concentration >>and labor camps. If you stick with the documentation you refer >>to, they are still there. So is the death rate, right from the >>records recording the cause of death. >> >> >> >> >Been spending too much time in your leather Gestapo uniform lately? >As has been said elsewhere, your revisionist bullshit is not welcome >here. >This is alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, not >alt.homosexual.revisionist.nazi. First you ask me to take it out of your favorite conference and I decline to reply. Next you defend the lies of the holohuggers and expect no response. Will you please get yout signals straight? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:02 PDT 1996 Article: 42574 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: missing files Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:49:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4pj52c$294@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pc0ch$5gc@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:51:56 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >I've not follow all the exchange about missing files but the best >I could remember Tom was complaining that some of his post were not there. I've check >in my case also in the section people and it seems that they keep >track of only a part of the post. >Doesn't seems to be related to a 'choice' however, their system >seems to work sometimes and sometimes not, regardless of the contain. Their site does not work for shit. It is no more than a medium of self aggrandizement, expecting to be honored guests at Sedar or some such. Remember the claim that regex was a search engine to understand the technical ignorance of the people running the site. I know of one site where there grunt delights in signing his messages VP. And for Nizkor, incompetants delight in signing themselves co-webmasters. Anyone who could read the help files could do better than they are doing. Anyone knowing what they are doing would have written an indexing program long ago. What we have at Nizkor is a bunch of unqualified amateurs pretending to what they are not at the most basic level, that is, being able to maintain a website. As HTML is so simple and the level of programming needed to deal with text is so trivial one would have expected even rank amatuers to have grasped it by now. But they have not. The website itself is testimony to their level of intelligence and ability. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:03 PDT 1996 Article: 42575 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nose-honker still at large Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:50:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4pj54u$294@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pidgi$t78@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4piu4b$ppk@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:53:18 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> Civil of course but for what damages? Criminal? (as our resident >> Pennsylvania lawyer implied.) If by some miracle something that >> bares ranks as a misdemeanor were subject to mutual prosecution >> with Canada. I doubt Canada has enough surplus prosecutors to >> take an interest in the matter. > Excuses, excuses, excuses. Why don't you give them a call and find out >for sure. Those of us familiar with the law do not have to waste a quarter to be told the obvious. What is your excuse? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:04 PDT 1996 Article: 42576 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:52:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4pj58n$294@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pifu9$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31BCA2F9.A3C@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:55:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388661 alt.politics.libertarian:173387 alt.politics.democrats.d:85785 alt.politics.usa.republican:213955 alt.politics.usa.congress:42977 alt.politics.reform:74546 alt.activism:53123 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319798 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24609 alt.revisionism:42576 Chuck Ferree wrote: >CHUCK FERREE writes: >Giwer, you are so dumb! The Nazis came into power in 1934. Hitles was >a total dictator by then. He decided what happened next. Dachau the >first camp they used was all ready a death camp by 1936 or before. Man >get a little bit of your history straight. Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with the date, deal with them. Get back to me when you have straightened them out. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:45:05 PDT 1996 Article: 42578 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:30:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 48 Message-ID: <4pj7f2$al@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <31bc39eb.5712385@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pifr0$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pj4bd$64o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:32:50 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388679 alt.politics.libertarian:173393 alt.politics.democrats.d:85790 alt.politics.usa.republican:213969 alt.politics.usa.congress:42983 alt.politics.reform:74552 alt.activism:53128 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319809 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24612 alt.revisionism:42578 ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >In <4pifr0$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >writes: >> >>Erik Marksberry wrote: >> >> >>> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your >>>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of >>>the Nazi party. >> >> Actually a quite limited bit of truth. >> >> The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put >>together a governing coalition of the parties which held seats in >>the Reichstag. >> >> Between then and March international Jewish organizations >>organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the >>middle of the Depression. They announced it in March. One week >>later there was a one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany >>organized by the Nazis. >> >> The permanent international boycott continued and at that point >>the rest of the permanent responses to the permanent boycott were >>instituted. >> >> You may also hear that the first camp, Dachau, was opened in >>March, 1933 but at the time it was for political enemies. >> >>===== >> >> Keep firmly in mind, recitation of facts is not revision. >> >> >Go away. If you have a problem with facts that are sworn to by Nizkor I would suggest you take it up with them. Please remember that the Nizkor Gang told me to learn and I studied their website. In this case I point out what they are saying is true. Your gripe is with them, not with me. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:05 PDT 1996 Article: 42582 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:57:10 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4pjchj$h3n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgj5k$kcj@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4piev9$72g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjb9u$eoo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 3:59:31 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388697 alt.politics.libertarian:173402 alt.politics.democrats.d:85801 alt.politics.usa.republican:213986 alt.politics.usa.congress:42990 alt.politics.reform:74559 alt.activism:53139 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319828 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24617 alt.revisionism:42582 d.hart@ix.netcom.com(David A. Hart) wrote: >In <4piev9$72g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such >>>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per >>>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per >>>month. Many died in concentration camps of "natural" causes such as >>>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were >>>systematically executed "on the spot" in Poland and the Soviet Union. >> >> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death >>rate. >The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of the >camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without >them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation that >the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the >construction of crematoria. A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered. I have no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed. Remember it was all Soviet information and they in the person of Rudenko were willing to lie in an attempt to get a conviction. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42586 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: TELL HIS MOMMY Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:32:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4piifd$mfg@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31bc35fc.631967@news.pacificnet.net> <31BC4B3A.575@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:34:37 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Alec Grynspan wrote: >tom moran wrote: >> Now why would Nizkor (McVay, McCarthy and Hilary) afford >> accomodation for easy access to a poster's news-server? The obvious is >> obvious. They want people to e-mail objections to the news-servers of >> any listed post tagged with the highlighted link. >So that people can see for themselves. >Because they know that they're not falsifying things and are confident >that anybody following the links will see the same thing. Just what is there to see at an email address? >> Evidently they must be feeling kind of limp, insecure and >> impotent in dealing with their adversaries head on. An admission of >> inadequacy. Lack of faith in their position. A subliminal expression >> that they are corrupt. >Thank you for the admissions as to your true motives. Your transference >of your emotional state shows that you are still in denial and still in >need of extensive therapy. Alec, I thought you knew better than "I am not but you are" after all of these years on the boards. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42597 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: TELL HIS MOMMY Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:30:24 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4piibq$mfg@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31bc35fc.631967@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:32:42 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > > Inspite of any rhetoric Nizkor people or their supporters might >fiegn on supporting free speech, Nizkor carries clickable links to >news-servers for easy access to file complaints about any of their >adversaries. > Take the example of Nizkor dossiers of alt.revisionism posts that >it carries. Articles, or more correctly, threads in articles are >listed under "people" in their ftp files, complete with headers that >have highlighted links which include the news group, the posters >address and, and, and a link to his news-server. > Now why would Nizkor (McVay, McCarthy and Hilary) afford >accomodation for easy access to a poster's news-server? The obvious is >obvious. They want people to e-mail objections to the news-servers of >any listed post tagged with the highlighted link. > Evidently they must be feeling kind of limp, insecure and >impotent in dealing with their adversaries head on. An admission of >inadequacy. Lack of faith in their position. A subliminal expression >that they are corrupt. > Poor, poor Larry, Moe and Hilary. Before these wrong kind of posts stop being posted it would be of interest to collect the responses of the Gang of Six (or Seven) for future reference. After all, some day they may achieve the publicity and fame they crave. At that point there will be press interviews, talk shows, all the rest. And then there will be opportunities for confrontation. For example, "Mr. McVay, when the statement was made that crematoria do not have the capacity to accomodate the number of bodies produced, did you not say, and I quote, 'The only problem with the cremation rate is that your father did not know how to use a condom'?" A fertile mind can envision many such opportunities using the posts fo the entire Gang. Do not forget that these folks are expecting the praise of their fellow holohuggers for their activities. Nothing will shoot down public praise faster than making them unsuitable for public use. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:07 PDT 1996 Article: 42603 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:11:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4pikoc$m2j@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfo80$40h@news.enter.net> <4phmpl$ne4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 7:13:32 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >Yale Edeiken wrote (regarding Ehrlich606): >>The fact >>that someone who is basically a decent person who presents his opinions >>honestly and without bigotry cannot participate... >Thank you for the entirety of your remarks on this subject, you hit on an >important point. >I have long thought it an onerous mistake to create a tone in a newsgroup >(whose avowed purpose is to exchange information) that serves to drive >away people who are put off by the abrasiveness, without regard to their >philosophy or what they may add to the discussion. People, such as Ms. >Ostrov, who do this may have what in their minds are good motives for >using the method of personal attack, but the results of such activities >are counterproductive, antisocial, and the kinds of things generally >associated with brutes and mobs. >I've read the sarcasms about inordinate sensitivities, and the silly >rationalizations for invective. They are nothing more than excuses for >self-serving boorishness that destroys any possibility of legitimate >discussion and furtherance of understanding. What a sad state this is. >Of course, it does go right along with the phantom image of playing to a >hidden audience of gullible college-age lurkers. That characterization >would have gotten a horse-laugh and several raised middle fingers from the >many independently minded people I met in my college days. Have things >really changed that much? I don't think so. I hope not. It is unclear why you do not recognize that the objective of the Gang of Six is to prevent discussion and exchange that is contrary to what they purport to be the truths, all of them. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:08 PDT 1996 Article: 42604 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann') Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:11:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 63 Message-ID: <4pih7n$gqp@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4orht7$39v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p0jab$opp@shiva.usa.net> <4p0u1v$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p627v$egq@access4.digex.net> <4p7em6$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tpq$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4pad10$4cu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pfk97$495@dub-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> <4pfnbo$nn8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:13:27 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Marty Kelley wrote: >One of Matt Giwer's more bizarre trolls lately has been to claim that >witness accounts of gassing victims' screaming is proof that the accounts >must be false, since, as everybody knows, men do not scream in mortal >terror. Only women do. >Leaving aside the fact that I personally have, on at least three >occasions (ask my wife!) had nightmares from which I woke up screaming, >and the fact that I screamed when a I became aware that a burglar was in my >apartment (ask my ex-wife...no connection between the burglary and the >divorce, BTW), let's look at a historical even, which perhaps Mr. Giwer >will see the need to revise in light of his great knowledge of human >behavior. >I just finished James Welch's outstanding book _Killing Custer_, which >focuses on the Native Americans' viewpoint on the events surrounding the >battle of the Little Bighorn. In the afterword, filmmaker Paul Stekler >(with whom Welch co-wrote the script for a documentary that this book >grew out of) cites a letter written by Private Charles Windolph, a >survivor of Major Marcus Reno's unsuccessful first charge on the Indian >camp at the Little Bighorn. Steckler writes that Windolph described how >"Soldiers staggered aimlessly, many wounded and bleeding, while >terror-stricken stragglers fell through a disorganized skirmish line at >the top of the ridge. . . . The wounded lay screaming on the ground, many >crying for water in the oppressive heat." (P. 287) >I guess this means that the battle of the Little Bighorn never happened. >(And let's not even _start_ on the conflicting witness accounts of the >events...) >Prediction: Mr. Giwer will say that it doesn't count that these men were >screaming, since they were wounded. I believe he _does_ allow an >exception for men to scream in pain, just not in terror... How exactly he >knows what part of a scream comes from pain and what part from terror >could be an interesting question for this expert on human behavior to >explain. Any asshole can predict what he has already read me say. And you have proved you are in the any asshole category. How about a real prediction next time? >But let us explore this fascinating generalization of Mr. Giwer's more >thoroughly: Do men scream from terror? I'm pretty sure I do, Really? For help or just scream? But you are only "pretty sure." What else do you have going for your position? but then >I suppose it's possible that, all biological evidence to the contrary, I >am not really a man. How sure are you of either? Let's give Mr. Giwer's weighty objection to the >authenticity of eyewitness testimony the serious empirical investigation >it deserves. As you know, descriptions of US gas chamber executions do not include screams from pain. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 17:26:55 PDT 1996 Article: 27672 of alt.skinheads Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:41:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4pithq$od5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4o4moc$10g@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4p0472$914@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pdh4b$ecu@orb.direct.ca> <4pebk5$rrb@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pf13g$rh5@panix2.panix.com> <4pf5mh$gjt@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pi9er$17s@orb.direct.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:43:38 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:31961 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22397 alt.discrimination:48324 alt.revisionism:42633 alt.skinheads:27672 patrickc@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote: >In article <4pf5mh$gjt@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote: >>> _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald. >> >> Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction. >Are you stupid or what? The point is that it ADVOCATES MURDER. Dear Idiot, The claim was pamphlet. You have provided a work of fiction in novel form. Thank you for your time. Disrespectfully, /me/ From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 19:22:35 PDT 1996 Article: 42642 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent False Witness Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:39:24 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4pj0uo$7vl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pd7b1$ccu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4pdesq$p66@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31BC898E.34A8@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:41:44 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Chuck Ferree wrote: >CHUCK FERREE WASTES TIME" >Matt, shut the hell up. You don't know, you just guess. Your getting >onmy friend in Chicago's nerves again. Not to mention your ingnorance. >Chuck And you single handedly ended the war in Europe. >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >> >> >>The gassing lie was spread by the Americans. (note 3) The lie that Jews >and as usual he stuffs us with his line of total nonsense. You really should learn who you are calling an idiot. That is not my post. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 19:22:36 PDT 1996 Article: 42644 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: gibberish... Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:14:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4pihep$gqp@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <31BC16A1.1310@sm.luth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:17:13 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Johan Carlson wrote: >First of all I would like to say that I'm new in this newsgroup. I spent >yesterday reading through some of the articles and I must say that it >was an astonnishing experience. It really doesn't take a genius to >realize that Mr. Giwer is an idiot. Furthermore it takes no, or at least >very little knowledge of history to realize that his so called proof >that the gassings never took place is a work of an ignorant. You are obviously not very bright as I have never claimed to prove the gassings did not occur. That is up to those making the claim that there were gassings. As I not presentee the "proof" correct or not, that you claim I have, what in the hell are you talking about? >I would like to ask Mr. Giwer a question: > Did you come up with all that b.s. by your self, or do you have people > around you to help inventing all stories? What stories are you talking about? Please be specific in your response. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 19:22:37 PDT 1996 Article: 42650 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:19:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4pil7c$p4b@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com> <4phks5$mp4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 9:21:32 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >Oh, btw, Mr. Ehrlich. A friend of mine recently subscribed to AOL. >Subscribers to AOL, as you know, have the privilege of finding the >name behind the nick. He let me know what yours is. >Now, I woudn't dream of publishing it here (because I wouldn't want to >see your "cobbling" efforts diverted by those predatory net babes whom >you fear might disturb the equilibrium of your marriage). >But I do find it strange, since if I recall correctly you did tell us >that you _are_ an historian, that a cursory net search didn't turn up >anything that you've published. Then again, I recall that you did >make reference, in at least one post, to some "ghost writing" that >you've done. Are all your published works "ghosts", Mr. Ehrlich? >hro >======================= >Hilary Ostrov >*********** >Now there's a methodology to take pride in. Sweetness and light. What do you expect from a gentile young lady on a mission from god? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 20:20:04 PDT 1996 Article: 42664 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A simple question for Ken McVay Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:21:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4pj6tv$mh8@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bb57c8.c60f7c80$66ded3c6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 12:23:43 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 L.D. Coons <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote: >Does it ever occur to you that, while you are engaged in your >cyber-warrior routine, your would-be allies (viz. Bernie Farber et al) are >busily campaigning to rob you of your hobby? I don't, for what it's worth, >doubt the historicity of the holocaust, but it is hard not to notice that >the greatest present threat to our civil liberties is not a resurgent >national socialism, as some would comically have us believe, but the >activities of Canadian Jewish organizations as they attempt to suppress >heretical opinions through our notorious hate laws and Human Rights >kangaroo courts. Notice the obvious theological connotations of the term >"holocaust denial," >as though the holocaust were a doctrinal truth and its denial a kind of >blasphemy. In short, while you debate, your friends want to ensure that >the other side can't respond. Shouldn't you perhaps occasionally >acknowledge that Bernie Farber is a greater threat to our freedom than >Ernst Zundel? Well said. It is difficult to add to what you have said. But let me try. They advertise their own enemies. I have NEVER, EVER, save one exception, come across one purported "hatesite" or "hate group" save by their advertising. That one exception was David Dahlman being name Hate Site of the Week. Their entire mission in life was best expressed in Don Quixote. Cervantes was born centuries early. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:37 PDT 1996 Article: 389015 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:08:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4pkque$o8b@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgj5k$kcj@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4piev9$72g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjb9u$eoo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pjchj$h3n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4pjd54$elq@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 5:11:26 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389015 alt.politics.libertarian:173584 alt.politics.democrats.d:85986 alt.politics.usa.republican:214309 alt.politics.usa.congress:43132 alt.politics.reform:74714 alt.activism:53281 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320094 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24677 alt.revisionism:42684 d.hart@ix.netcom.com(David A. Hart) wrote: >In <4pjchj$h3n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >writes: >>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death >>>>rate. >> >>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of >the >>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without >>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation >that >>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the >>>construction of crematoria. >> >> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered. >I have >>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed. >Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp guards >and camp inmates. I'd suggest you read the transcripts of the >Nuremburg War Trials. I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones not questionable statements produced by the Soviets. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:38 PDT 1996 Article: 389086 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:04:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 109 Message-ID: <4pku6b$ka5@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pj3h3$et6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pj810$3mm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 6:06:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389086 alt.politics.libertarian:173627 alt.politics.democrats.d:86020 alt.politics.usa.republican:214386 alt.politics.usa.congress:43156 alt.politics.reform:74739 alt.activism:53306 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320155 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24692 alt.revisionism:42716 "D. Braun" wrote: >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> "D. Braun" wrote: >> >> >> >> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> "D. Braun" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> >> >> ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing >> >> >> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this >> >> >> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were >> >> >> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death >> >> >> >camps... It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won >> >> >> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >> >> >> >> >> >> >As for how the number of 6 million came about... See, the Germans were >> >> >> >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process >> >> >> >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be >> >> >> >"no longer operative," or some low level detailee in the Reichstag >> >> >> >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased. >> >> >> >> >> >> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used >> >> >> there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no >> >> >> records kept of those who were to gassed immediately. >> >> >> >> >??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly >> >> >documented: records of zyclon "B" manufacture and shipping to the camps; >> >> >the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp >> >> >survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the >> >> >architectural plan for the chambers; etc. >> >> >> >> >Say it--- are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps >> >> >died of natural causes? What? >> >> >> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest >> >> ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps. >> >> >I was referingf to the figure combining Jews and non-Jews. Your propaganda >> >is extremely weak---- of the you say its white, I say its black variety. >> >What the hell is a "holohugger", shithead!!! Maybe you could tell me >> >where a few dozen relatives on mt father;s side went---on vacation!!!!??? >> >You are a worthless piece of shit, and if you were lying in the road, I >> >would not only not swerve, I would back up and run you over again. >> >You area miserable excuse for humanity. Who the fuck are you, anyway? >> >Maybe you should post your real name and address so someone can put an end >> >to your miseravble existence!!! >> >> It is not clear how to deal with your problem. >> >> The SWC states very clearly that the "Holocaust" applies only to the >> what happened to the Jews. If you disagree, take it up with them. >> >> Holohugger is very similar to a holoworshipper. Those who will lie to >> preserve gassing because the love the idea of martyrdom. Very Christian >> actually. >> >> As to your family, perhaps they were among the 1.6 million deported to >> Siberia by the Soviets from Poland alone. Perhaps they were among the 2 >> million conscripted to be part of the human wave to charge the German >> lines. >> >> But it is clear that your love of death and gore indicated by your post >> shows you truly are infatuated with the idea of death and related >> nastiness. >> >> You are sick. You wax ecstatic just thinking about death. >I won't respond to your drivel, except to say that some of those that got >away volunteered in a Jewish brigade, and fought in North Africa with >distinction killing Germans. I would certainly hope that is who they were killing. A weird thing happened recently; my >sister married a guy whose father was captured in North Africa by the >British; my own relatives could have been shooting at each other. No one >tried to kill each other at the wedding--- they got along great. You, on >the other hand, are a disgrace to any race or nationality; Just who is stupid enough to think such a thing is possible? you wish to >erase history in order to prop up your venomous, hate-filled view of the >world, to somehow justify your exalted delusional status as a member of >the "master race". The Nazi's were defeated 51 years ago. Get a clue. >BTW, I would still not swerve around you in the road. You appear to be assuming something that is both not in evidence and not true. But I would suggest you inform the holohuggers the Nazis have been gone for 51 years. They see them everywhere. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:40 PDT 1996 Article: 389126 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:19:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 62 Message-ID: <4pkv22$4bh@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> ,<4pj3h3$et6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pjtn0$494@fnnews.fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:21:38 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389126 alt.politics.libertarian:173647 alt.politics.democrats.d:86043 alt.politics.usa.republican:214424 alt.politics.usa.congress:43170 alt.politics.reform:74749 alt.activism:53326 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320183 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24702 alt.revisionism:42731 morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV wrote: > mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>"D. Braun" wrote: >>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> >>>> ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >>>> >>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing >>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this >>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were >>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death >>>> >camps... It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won >>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly >>>documented: records of zyclon "B" manufacture and shipping to the camps; >>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp >>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the >>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc. >> >>>Say it--- are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps >>>died of natural causes? What? >> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest >>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps. >I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies >and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too. 5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is in the camps. If you add up the camps you don't find enough dead. So we have these wandering Einsatzgruppen to take up the slack to keep the number about the same no matter how many millions the camp deaths are reduced by. >[Giwar babbles on claiming there is no evidence] Why don't you post some? >For those interested in what kind of evidence there is I suggest a look >at http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ if you are into being sickly amused >try http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar01.html I have looked at a lot of it. I have posted a lot of it here pointing out the nonsense in it. You should read some of it skeptically also. Lately I have posted incontrovertable proof that Treblinka had crematoria, a witness said so. I posted incontrovertable evidence that cancer is an infectous disease, a witness said so. I have even found the really true truth about Zyklon-B was first used and how exposure to Zyklon-B causes flesh and clothing to fuse into gelatinous blobs that "some times disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them up" two days later. I find the site very useful to point out that absolute nonsense that passes for truth on Nizkor. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:41 PDT 1996 Article: 389323 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:00:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4plmif$8nt@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgj5k$kcj@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4piev9$72g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjb9u$eoo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pjchj$h3n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4pjd54$elq@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4pkque$o8b@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4plirp$80g@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 1:02:55 AM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389323 alt.politics.libertarian:173750 alt.politics.democrats.d:86150 alt.politics.usa.republican:214612 alt.politics.usa.congress:43246 alt.politics.reform:74812 alt.activism:53388 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320335 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24734 alt.revisionism:42798 d.hart@ix.netcom.com(David A. Hart) wrote: >>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp >guards >>>and camp inmates. I'd suggest you read the transcripts of the >>>Nuremburg War Trials. >> >> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones >not >>questionable statements produced by the Soviets. >Read the post carefully. I didn't mention "questionable statements >produced by the Soviets." >Some of these mass graves have been opened to confirm the testimony of >former camp guards and former prisoners. Not of the hundreds of thousands of supposed gassing deaths. Or of you claim that is true, where did this occur? >Do you honestly believe the Holocaust did not occur? I have never said that. I have focused upon the gassing claims only. Why would you confuse the two? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:41 PDT 1996 Article: 389325 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:07:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 55 Message-ID: <4plmuq$9qt@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pigtp$gjs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> ,<4pj3h3$et6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pjtn0$494@fnnews.fnal.gov> <4pkv22$4bh@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 1:09:30 AM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389325 alt.politics.libertarian:173751 alt.politics.democrats.d:86152 alt.politics.usa.republican:214614 alt.politics.usa.congress:43247 alt.politics.reform:74813 alt.activism:53389 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320336 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24736 alt.revisionism:42799 Erik Marksberry wrote: >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV wrote: >> >> > mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >>"D. Braun" wrote: >> >> >>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> >>>> ambrose@ix.netcom.com(Ambrose) wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing >> >>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this >> >>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were >> >>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death >> >>>> >camps... It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won >> >>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >> >> >>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly >> >>>documented: records of zyclon "B" manufacture and shipping to the camps; >> >>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp >> >>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the >> >>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc. >> >> >> >>>Say it--- are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps >> >>>died of natural causes? What? >> >> >> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest >> >>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps. >> >> >I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies >> >and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too. >> >> 5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is >> in the camps. If you add up the camps you don't find enough dead. >[snip] > Could you post the numbers of dead found at each camp, complete with >the appropriate references? Read the fucking NG. A holohugger claimed within the last two days that there were 1 million attributable to the roving death squads. And also learn that there were never 5.2 million dead found as that is what all of the cremation and vanishing ashes claims are all about. You really need to carefully read the claims of the holohuggers here before you continue. Nothing I have said to you so far disagrees with their position. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:42 PDT 1996 Article: 389353 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:01:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <4plmkn$8nt@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pifu9$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31BCA2F9.A3C@rio.com> <4pj58n$294@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <31bd945e.7375326@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pktrj$3j4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31BDD323.10A9@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 1:04:07 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389353 alt.politics.libertarian:173770 alt.politics.democrats.d:86167 alt.politics.usa.republican:214641 alt.politics.usa.congress:43255 alt.politics.reform:74821 alt.activism:53402 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320364 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24741 alt.revisionism:42807 Chuck Ferree wrote: >Chuck Ferree writes: >I'll repeat! The Nazis established Dachau, long before the war >started. So if you don't believe this, you are not only more stupid >that we all think you are, you're also too fucking lazy to check it >out. >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> >> Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with >> >>the date, deal with them. >So what are we talking about here, idiot? You say on the one hand >1942, than you switch to 1933 so you can call me a liar. This is >bullshit, Gwier, you know it and I know it. Facts never did mean >doodely-shit to you, and they still don't. You're just a street >brawler, looking for a fight, and let me tell ya, pal, I'd kick your >ass so quick, you'd think you were in the city of the Angels. >> >> >> >> Get back to me when you have straightened them out. >Fuck you. You get back to me when you can tell the correct time by >looking at a clock. >> >> >Don't fall for this Giwer trick. He will avoid the main topic by >> >arguing minor points. Matt is a confirmed anti-semite and Holocaust >> >revisionist. The only reason he is on here is to stir up trouble. >Thanks, but have no fear, everyone knows this turkey. He's in need of >help, AA, or some such outfit. But until he wants to hehave like a >normal human being, he's just another asshole to me. >> >> And what is the main topic you think is under discussion? Eisenhower >> steal all the credit for winning the war from Ferree? >> >> >He is a right-wing asshole of the highest magnitude. And he is proud >> >of it. >> >> >Just ignore his diversions and ask him to answer the original >> >question until he answers it. But don't hold your breath. >> >> There was no original question as you know. Why would you claim there >> was such a question? Trying to demonstrate diversion by diverting? >Say what? Try what by what? Matt, go back to running one of those >sweatshops where you make lots of money off the labor of others. >You are a total waste of time. But I'll bet you're a cute MF! The people you have stated are your friends do not quote you, do not support you, and clearly wish you would shut up. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:43 PDT 1996 Article: 389406 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 04:26:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4plh2q$sb8@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4phvsj$6k9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pin1o$7rb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4pj2na$acr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pk8f1$g6e@lal.interserv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:29:14 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389406 alt.politics.libertarian:173799 alt.politics.democrats.d:86190 alt.politics.usa.republican:214674 alt.politics.usa.congress:43269 alt.politics.reform:74837 alt.activism:53417 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320392 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24749 alt.revisionism:42818 klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote: >In article <4pj2na$acr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com says... >>>Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia, >>>when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse? >> >> How many? >> >> What is the number? >If you are literate and are able to read beyond a 5th grade level, you might >try going to the history section of your local library. I am sure they can >supply you with the information and, who knows, you might actually learn >something. >This is all a matter of record and I am sure if you write the German >authorities they will be glad to give you the approapriate information from the >trials where it is all documented in typical Nazi detail. >URL: any library on the face of the earth. So you are saying that if I find such a number and post it that no holohugger will object to it? I did not think so. I am really quite surprised you folks do not have such a number right off the top of your heads. Just for openers I can add 1.2 M + 0.8 M + 1 M from A-B, Treblinka and Einsatzgruppen respectively and have 3 M. At least those numbers I have from holohuggers. How about another million for all the rest of the death camps? Sound reasonable to you? We can deal with the remaining 1.2 M from disease, accident, age and the like later. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:30:44 PDT 1996 Article: 389433 of talk.politics.misc Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:58:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4pktrj$3j4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31bba1db.13627876@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pifu9$7ov@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31BCA2F9.A3C@rio.com> <4pj58n$294@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <31bd945e.7375326@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:01:07 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389433 alt.politics.libertarian:173818 alt.politics.democrats.d:86210 alt.politics.usa.republican:214707 alt.politics.usa.congress:43281 alt.politics.reform:74848 alt.activism:53430 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320421 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24752 alt.revisionism:42833 voltai29@ix.netcom.com (Jim Kennemur) wrote: >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:52:58 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote: >>Chuck Ferree wrote: >> >>>CHUCK FERREE writes: >> >>>Giwer, you are so dumb! The Nazis came into power in 1934. Hitles was >>>a total dictator by then. He decided what happened next. Dachau the >>>first camp they used was all ready a death camp by 1936 or before. Man >>>get a little bit of your history straight. >> >> Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with >>the date, deal with them. >> >> Get back to me when you have straightened them out. >Don't fall for this Giwer trick. He will avoid the main topic by >arguing minor points. Matt is a confirmed anti-semite and Holocaust >revisionist. The only reason he is on here is to stir up trouble. And what is the main topic you think is under discussion? Eisenhower steal all the credit for winning the war from Ferree? >He is a right-wing asshole of the highest magnitude. And he is proud >of it. >Just ignore his diversions and ask him to answer the original >question until he answers it. But don't hold your breath. There was no original question as you know. Why would you claim there was such a question? Trying to demonstrate diversion by diverting? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:06 PDT 1996 Article: 42685 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars... Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:38:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 81 Message-ID: <4pklku$t24@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p9ihh$656@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pcu4g$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:41:02 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4pcu4g$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >> >> >Mr. Allen, the top of the Zyklon B introduction columns passing through >> >the ceiling would have been held in place, and denied any lateral >> >movement, BY THE CONCRETE CEILING. Do you have a problem visualizing this >> >simple spatial relationship? Would more drawings help you to correctly >> >understand why a column passing through a hole in the roof would be >> >constrained in lateral movements? One begins to wonder at the reasons for >> >your obtuseness, Mr. Allen.... >> >> You know when you folks were talking about these things being an >> insert into hollow concret pillars (February's truely true >> description) you had marginally fewer problems. >Unfortunately for Giwer, he has discombobulated himself again. The person >who put forward the silly idea that the Zyklon B introduction columns were >" hollow concret pillars" was Mr. Beaulieu, a self-admitted Holocaust >denier. I regret to inform you that I was engaged in many exchanges with the holohuggers claiming the gas would go out those four inch long holes. You need to look it up on Nizkor. >> Now with these free standing and removal columns all people had >> to do was reach up and keep them from being put in. Or if they >> were already inside, all the had to do was raise them and push >> them back out. Not much more than a stopgap measure of course >> but it certainly could have been used as a scene in a comedic >> version of Schindlers' list. >Oh, my. Giwer The Monumentally Stupid _must_ have sprained one of his last >few functional neurons coming up with the above! Obviously, Giwer is >spatially challanged. (Perhaps I _had_ better draw some pictures!) I can >only shake my head in wonder at the amount of effort Giwer demonstrates in >ensuring that he stays impressively ignorant of such details as are being >discussed here. >The Zyklon B columns, in spite of Giwer's ignorant protests, were not >free-standing. They were anchored to the floor. This obviously would >immobilize the columns in the vertical axis and the bottom of the columns >in the horzontal plane. The top of the columns also passed through the >concrete roof, which would then act as a collar on the top of the column, >also immobilizing it in the horizontal plane. >Now, given that the Zyklon B columns were secured in both the vertical and >horizontal, on what basis does Giwer assert that all the victims had to do >"was raise them and push them back out?" Why none of course! But then >Giwer rarely lets minor details- like the fact that the Zyklon B columns >were quite secure -stand in the way of spouting drivel! http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail..jpg http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns..jpg Neither of these appear to match your description. >What about Giwer's claim that all the victims had to do was "reach up and >keep them from being put in?" What is "them?" The columns? No, the columns >were _already_ securely in the gas chanber. What, exactly, then? Perhaps >Giwer meant the Zyklon B? But no, the small _removable_ cores slipped down >into the gas chamber _inside_ the large, fixed, Zyklon B columns. So what >_is_ Giwer, babbling about? Why _nothing_ of course! He's simply >blabbering to hear his own voice. Do you, too, hear my voice like Dahlman? >BTW, I would suggest that Giwer put some ice on his neuron. He obviously >has too few to spare.... So did you make up your description or do you have some pictures of them? You do not appear to be contrained by reality at this point. After all, they are still there are them not? And no one has ever bothered to find one much less photograph one. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:07 PDT 1996 Article: 42686 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: As blue as blue can be Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:42:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4pklrb$t24@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:44:27 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in Krema I in Auschwitz [Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176] ------------------------------------------------------------- ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison! to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death. Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not see? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:08 PDT 1996 Article: 42687 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars... Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:52:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4pkmfj$kqp@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p9ihh$656@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pcu4g$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 3:55:15 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4pcu4g$47k@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >> >> >Mr. Allen, the top of the Zyklon B introduction columns passing through >> >the ceiling would have been held in place, and denied any lateral >> >movement, BY THE CONCRETE CEILING. Do you have a problem visualizing this >> >simple spatial relationship? Would more drawings help you to correctly >> >understand why a column passing through a hole in the roof would be >> >constrained in lateral movements? One begins to wonder at the reasons for >> >your obtuseness, Mr. Allen.... >> >> You know when you folks were talking about these things being an >> insert into hollow concret pillars (February's truely true >> description) you had marginally fewer problems. >Unfortunately for Giwer, he has discombobulated himself again. The person >who put forward the silly idea that the Zyklon B introduction columns were >" hollow concret pillars" was Mr. Beaulieu, a self-admitted Holocaust >denier. >> Now with these free standing and removal columns all people had >> to do was reach up and keep them from being put in. Or if they >> were already inside, all the had to do was raise them and push >> them back out. Not much more than a stopgap measure of course >> but it certainly could have been used as a scene in a comedic >> version of Schindlers' list. >Oh, my. Giwer The Monumentally Stupid _must_ have sprained one of his last >few functional neurons coming up with the above! Obviously, Giwer is >spatially challanged. (Perhaps I _had_ better draw some pictures!) I can >only shake my head in wonder at the amount of effort Giwer demonstrates in >ensuring that he stays impressively ignorant of such details as are being >discussed here. >The Zyklon B columns, in spite of Giwer's ignorant protests, were not >free-standing. They were anchored to the floor. This obviously would >immobilize the columns in the vertical axis and the bottom of the columns >in the horzontal plane. The top of the columns also passed through the >concrete roof, which would then act as a collar on the top of the column, >also immobilizing it in the horizontal plane. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming/wiremesh..jpg And for what it is worth, this French drawing has no such anchor or anchoring attachment as you very clearly state there was. Are you certain you are not making this up? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:09 PDT 1996 Article: 42697 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:24:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4pj3jf$et6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pirdb$86r@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:26:55 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas) wrote: >Ambrose wrote: >>Many believe Germany could have won >>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews. >That's a curious theory. Who are some of the many that believe this >implausible claim. It won't pencil out, won't even come close. Sounds >good though. It is called secret admiration. Sort of like going back to the good old days when Isaelites could genocide to their heart's content. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:10 PDT 1996 Article: 42723 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:41:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 69 Message-ID: <4pl7ce$rli@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4p7em6$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pacho$e6b@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 8:43:42 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42723 alt.usenet.kooks:24971 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:45 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># And does seeing others die induce screaming in men? >Are you claiming this is not possible? More so when the >men realize they're also going to die? More so as they >realize that their family members are also going to die? I am noting that it is a consistent "eyewitness" report. Too much to be just a fluke. >Does your opinion have something to do with the death of >your second wife, which you said took place? I recall you >made an odd, rather odd, comment about your reaction when >she died. Want me to post it? Why would you want to do that? What is your motivation? >Say, Giwer, has it ever occured to you that you're *really* >not a normal human being? You could be, possibly. It's just >that some ingredients were left out. I am much too intelligent to be normal like you folks. But you are great studies in pack behavior. ># And the steam story is still a deliberate fabrication ># used to convict at least one Nazi. That does not inspire any ># confidence in any of the other stories. >The "steam story" was explained. So were the rest of the erroneous >reports: these were made by members of the Polish Underground >who spied on the camps from a distance, and, although they saw >the corpses being taken out from the chambers, they failed to >understand exactly how the killing took place. Polish underground reports from a distance lead to a conviction? And this after someone was able to find a T-32 engine but not the foundations of all the buildings including the gas chambers and the crematoria? Please. You strain what little credulity you had left after you claimed it was oil vapor and oil soaked buildings and the inherent flammability and explosion dangers. >Moreover, at least one such report by the Polish Underground >I have seen does not say that steaming etc. were the methods used, >but raised the possibility that the victims were killed by >that or a different method. It's possible that someone later >misundestood these reports and thought that they made a hard >claim about the methods used. But I don't consider this to >be a very important point. Correct, you never get around to explaining electrocution and vacuum chamber deaths. Want to take a shot at them now? >As we all know, much more reliable information was supplied by >the people who were right there by the gas chambers - the SS-men >who ran the camps, and the surviving sonderkommando. But you can >trust our nazi-boy "revisionists" to keep ignoring this, and >to mention only the reports of the Polish Underground. And you refuse to deal with Pohl having been convicted of steaming people to death. But then in Holoworld people get hung on such evidence. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:10 PDT 1996 Article: 42728 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:37:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <4pl04v$50a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pfqsh$2ud@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pgh3j$7vj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31bc3b08.5997560@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4phvsj$6k9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pin1o$7rb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4pj2na$acr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pjrpj$fau@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:40:15 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: The above is where it started, in response to the international >: boycott. >Is this the same Prince Myshkin who said that the proper response to >discrimination against Blacks in the South was boycotting those >businesses that discriminated? I do not remember saying that any time recently. But at least you agree the Nazis were all talk when it came to Jews until after the boycott was organized against the entire country in the middle of the Depression. >: >Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia, >: >when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse? >: How many? >: What is the number? >The number is over a million, as reported by the Einsatzgruppen themselves. Over a million is not good enough. I want a fixed number or number range that no one will seriously disagree with. And that number needs be the total number of directly exterminated, not those that are accounted for by camp conditions. >You might try reading the transcript of the "Einsatzgruppen trial," in >which the evidence against the defendants consisted *solely* of those >reports -- no eyewitness testimony. You might also try explaining why >none of the defendants claimed that the reports were forged or exaggerated >(of course, if they were exaggerated, then it's hard to argue that there >wasn't a policy of mass extermination, but I digress). Rather, the >defendants took the position that they were "only following orders." What is the link to the transcript? >And when *are* we going to see that translation of the Hitler quote? Whenever someone gets around to translating it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:11 PDT 1996 Article: 42729 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Rack Jite Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:42:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4pl0dc$50a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31bd71a1.65433054@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:44:44 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:06:09 +0000, Ray Majewski >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!First of all let me point out that the name Jack Rite is a lie. This >!guy's very existance is a lie. >Because Su hated me so much she not only jumped in bed with you to help >her in her game of censorship and bannishments, but she married your >sorry ass because your mutual hate of THE LIBERAL was so powerful. >Not only are you one of the most intolerant right-wing censors in this >medium, but you have the intellectual capacity of a pea gravel. What's the matter, Davey-girl? Machine tool sales slow? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:12 PDT 1996 Article: 42730 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: !ALEC GRYNSPAN IS A LIAR PROOF Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:40:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4pl0aj$50a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4n7sfr$rsg@web.nmti.com> <570_9605162245@tor250.org> <4nj369$8q1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4o067h$mp0@access5.digex.net> <4o0cgc$r8j@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <31a7a0e6.29555735@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com> <31A9BD3F.D18@gryn.org> <31bd7211.65545750@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:43:15 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Mon, 27 May 1996 10:33:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote >and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!>2)Matt Giwers & Alec Grynspans *mutual friend* also maintains that >!>ISP. >!Your paranoia is showing. >!1. Matt Giwer was addressing your message when he mentioned "mutual >!friend", not me. >!2. I know no one in Combase. >!3. You can't even tell reality from BS any more. >You are so full of shit you float pal... >>In article <4nj369$8q1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, >>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote: >>>You're assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the >>>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher'bot, not a >>>web page at all! >>Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a >>mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP. >So how you going to deny this. Bad staff? Bad employees? Bad software? >Not enough header? Its a forgery? But however you worm around it, it >will be some unethical, dishonest sleazy crap which is your shit nature. You mean my son and I are not permitted to have a mutual friend? Not even one? What did we do to deserve that? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:12 PDT 1996 Article: 42734 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Boys in the Sand Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:46:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4pl0ks$50a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31bd8578.6648396@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:48:44 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > On May 7, 1996 >Moran posted: "The Official Nizkor Code of Responding" > > Hillary Ostrov > (Nizkor co-webmaster) > alt.revisionism > "No Zyklone - then DDT" > "Many of us believe that ridicule > is the most appropriate response to > one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic > questions and responses." > 'We at Nizkor will be the ultimate authority on what >constitutes "idiotic questions and responses". > > Actually, it is a childish ploy for evasion. Hilary has never, >as far as I know, posted anything of substance. Of course she could >come back and post some of her stuff to rebuke this claim. Okay >Hillary, go for it. Actually she did make the substantive contribution that regex is a search engine. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:13 PDT 1996 Article: 42735 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Nizkor, Home of Superheroes Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:29:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4pkvki$eof@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <31BC16A1.1310@sm.luth.se> <4pihep$gqp@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31BD3334.510D@sm.luth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:31:30 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Johan Carlson wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> As I not presentee the "proof" correct or not, that you claim I >> have, what in the hell are you talking about? >> >In the articles from the Nizkor people there are plenty of references to >as well historians, survivors and even testimonies from nazi officers who were >there. What more proof do you really want? Evidence. As you know so much of the testimony is clearly absurd. So absurd that we we two very different versions of the same first use of Zyklon B/ >WHAT ARE YOUR MOTIVES MR. GIWER ?? Practicing while waiting for the Pres campaign to warm up. I practice on creationists also. >The only "proof" I've seen in your articles is references to other holocaust >deniers' speculations. Where are the testimonies Mr. Giwer? You mean about Zyklon B causing flesh and clothing to fuse into gelatinous blobs after two days? You mean that kind of testimony? >No other historical event (that I know of) has been tested so hard as the Holocaust. Who told you that? Rather, where did you get that idea? >With your so called proof you could probably prove that 'operation desert storm' was >just a media trick. As I have noted, I have attempted to prove nothing about the holocaust. You can repeat it for years and that will not make it true. Or do you understand what proof is? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:14 PDT 1996 Article: 42739 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:49:44 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 169 Message-ID: <4pl7sb$iia@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdbun$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdfm2$e7d@news.enter.net> <4pdhhg$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 6:52:11 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4pdhhg$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> >> >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> >> >> Strangely that is not reported. For help, yes. In pain, yes. >> >> Not pure screaming. That is unreported for men. >> >> >> >> Of course, if you wish to post examples of it, I am certain we >> >> will all be interested. >> >> > I already have. It happens. You are wrong. >> >> You have posted only from Katyn Woods and steaming to death >> quality sources. No rational person considers such sources >> credible. >Correction: No rational person considers Giwer a credible _anything_. >As for the quality of sources, rational people who are interested in >verifying such events as took place during the Holocaust generally attempt >to research the matter using a variety of sources to achieve the widest >possible perspective in regards to them. This, of course, is how we know >that the Polish resistance reports of "steaming," etc. were incorrect. Then how was a many hung for the crime of steaming? >And, of course, it is also how we know, for example, that homicidal >gassing took place at Auschwitz, and that about 1.1 million people, 90% >being Jews, perished there. We do keep hearing that story. Do you not find it interesting that we now have two different stories of the first use of Zyklon B? Do you not find it interesting that the reputation of Nizkor is behing both stories? In case you forgot ... ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Another lovely story From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed the falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point of view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly true story of the same first use. It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it. That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the URL so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site of this alternate reality true truth. ===== Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved impractical, and many were not 'selected' before they arrived in the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and 'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser ===== Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from Fritsch? ===== noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant. ===== Instantly "knocked out." One has to wonder just what it was that this person "whiffed". It is also of note that here it is used as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant. ===== To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue pellets, ===== Note the blue kitty litter. How strange. ===== which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution. ===== Even more than the impossible number the Nizkor story stuffs into the room. ===== Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.) ===== Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse into gelatinous blobs. Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is what really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised? But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it comes >from seeing a person "knocked out" from one whiff. Then we note that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to recover consciousness before dying and go through the hair pulling and finger biting routine. But this is a true story that Nizkor swears to as being gospel. Is there anyone out there who still denies that Nizkor is supporting absolute nonsense? Lying through their collective teeth that is? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:15 PDT 1996 Article: 42740 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Many things change Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:24:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4plrgq$s9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4paukm$66k@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4pi990$o3k@Vir.com> <4plqdv$stq@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 2:27:22 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4pi990$o3k@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>> But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly >>> remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded >>> Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only >>> declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation >>> for this? If England's reason for declaring war upon Germany was >>> just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia? >>> >> >> >> Never though to this one. It was under my nose for 2 decades >> but I never asked myself questions about it before. Well, I >> know why, but I'll keep this one in my bilological hard drive. > Lack of a suicidal urge was the first idea that came to my mind. As >it turned out, England could not even handle Germany without help from >both America and Russia, let alone Germany and Russia simultaneously. >Anyone who believes that the reason a country goes to war is justice has >some decidedly peculiar ideas about the way the world works. It is good to see you agree that Britain declared selective war upon Germany and that it "treaty" with Poland was a meaningless excuse. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:15 PDT 1996 Article: 42742 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!n1ott.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:04:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4pl8o8$aoq@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ot9a8$maj@kryten.awinc.com> <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pkj5b$gkq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pkp1s$nsg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 7:07:04 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42742 sci.chem:37083 rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4pkj5b$gkq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>>> All very interesting but you will remember that our California >>>> chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the >>>> bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. If you >>>> want it to be something else I would suggest you take it up with >>>> him, develop a consistent story, and get back to me. >> >>>Notice as that Giwer has been shown to be an ignorant fool without the >>>simplest knowledge of chemistry- or how to use a dictionary -he runs away >>>from his claim that bone ash (calcium phosphate) is NOT a fertilizer? Yep, >>>he runs just like a whipped dog, tail tucked between his legs and yelping >>>all the way! >> >> Sorry but you have just pointed out that the California chemist was not >>telling the truth or perhaps you are not. He said it was one thing; you >>claim it is something else. Who am I supposed to believe? Or are you >>both lying? >Mr. Giwer cannot provide an example of Mr. Van Alstine and I making >different claims about bone ash. Perhaps, that's due to Mr. Giwer's >ignoarnce of freshman-level oxidation-reduction chemistry. Just a couple days ago you corrected me by saying that you were talking about CaO2 vice CaO3. What are you claiming you were talking about now? >> Why don't you two get together, come up with a single story, and get >>back to me. >>>> It is impossible for me to deal with multiple true truths at the >>>> same time. >> >>>Actually, it has become quite apparent that Giwer is unable to deal with >>>_any_ truth at _any_ time! >> >>>> Apparently you holohuggers are able to believe many mutually >>>> exclusive things are true at the same time. >> >>>Nooo, that Giwer's gig. He can also espouse multiple lies at the same time. >> >> Either or both of you and the chemist is lying. >Mr. Giwer can present no evidence of lying on my part or on the part of >Mr. Van Alstine. Then why did you correct my statement that you were talking about CaO3 to saying you were talking about CaO2? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:16 PDT 1996 Article: 42746 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:48:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4pkf6d$dhp@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pekls$s1q@boris.eden.com> <4pj44p$br1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pk1jh$6h5@hackberry.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:50:53 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >>Mike Curtis wrote (of Ehrlich606): >>>He can't fool some of us any longer so its time to go. >>For an example of how easily some folks are fooled, please refer to the >>thread-- Re: Dresden? >Gosh, who are you going to shil for now that he is gone. You may have >to wriggle up to Giwer for a while. That way you can get all kinds of >shill work done. >Try presenting your own views rather than being a fop for someone else >who is head over heals more honest than you appear to be. As the holohuggers do nothing but mindlessly repeat what others tell them, it would be refreshing if they were to follow your advice. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:17 PDT 1996 Article: 42748 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann' Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:05:04 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 78 Message-ID: <4pkg5i$s8e@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pdbun$9pi@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdfm2$e7d@news.enter.net> <4pdhhg$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:07:30 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4pdhhg$s7v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> >> >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> >> >> Strangely that is not reported. For help, yes. In pain, yes. >> >> Not pure screaming. That is unreported for men. >> >> >> >> Of course, if you wish to post examples of it, I am certain we >> >> will all be interested. >> >> > I already have. It happens. You are wrong. >> >> You have posted only from Katyn Woods and steaming to death >> quality sources. No rational person considers such sources >> credible. >Correction: No rational person considers Giwer a credible _anything_. >As for the quality of sources, rational people who are interested in >verifying such events as took place during the Holocaust generally attempt >to research the matter using a variety of sources to achieve the widest >possible perspective in regards to them. This, of course, is how we know >that the Polish resistance reports of "steaming," etc. were incorrect. It >is also how we know that the Germans were not responsible for mass murder >of Polish military officers in the Katyn forest. It is impossible to use this excuse for a mistake and at the same time acknowledge a man was executed for the crime of steaming. And that still does not address the oily smoke claim which would have made the buildings major fire hazards. And it does not address the further claims of electrocution and vacuum chambers. And it does not address the doormat story or the mattress story. And it does not address where all the crematoria at Treblinka disappeared to. (The mattress story and the crematoria story have the reputation of Nizkor behind them.) >And, of course, it is also how we know, for example, that homicidal >gassing took place at Auschwitz, and that about 1.1 million people, 90% of >the Jews, perished there. And if someone were to produce testimony from the dead you would believe it. >But, given that Giwer is not a rational person he would not have realized >this. Instead he bickers and whines to feed his pathetic ego, which >reminds me: >Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only >interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes >sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied >about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), >refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain >documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to >him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi >apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of >intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in >taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence >of this, please refer to >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt You are the one who believes Nazi doctors could infect people with cancer as the reputation of Nizkor supports. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:18 PDT 1996 Article: 42749 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:19:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4pl9kd$sao@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4pcll8$5te@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:22:05 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4pcll8$5te@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >> >> >In article <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >> >Giwer) wrote: >> >> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> But isn't the Nizkor leaders >> >> > like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to >> >> > shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with >> >> > pressures? >> >> >> >> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of >> >> Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here. >> >> That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also >> >> called a conspiracy. >> >> >Oh, my. Giwer is whining again. Tsk tsk. [queue itty-bitty violins.] Take >> >it to alt.whine.whine.whine, Giwer. >> >> Statement of fact, little one. There was in fact harrassment of >> a service provider by the holohuggers. It is good to see that >> you do not deny it. It is another example of the lack of >> integrity of holohuggers. They are quite dispicable, you >> realize. >Deny what, exactly, Giwer? That you are a misanthropic prick who spammed >the newsgroup over a dozen times with re-posts of the _entire_ Wannsee >protocol? I wouldn't even _think_ of denying that! Is this how you holohuggers justify harrassing my family? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:18 PDT 1996 Article: 42750 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Strange things on IX Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:23:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4pl9rg$sao@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4paqqm$fsg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:25:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >[About gas chambers] ># After the war they were only found in territories controlled by ># the Russians. >Liar. ># And only the Russians found gas chambers. >Liar. >Why do you lie so much? Is it some kind of a disease? Are you still into your Dachau delousing chamber fantasy? That is the only one you folks have left and it is agreed it was a delousing chamber these days. You cling to "it was some other building" but there never appears to be any evidence of it. All there is going for it is the fierce assertions of the holohuggers. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:19 PDT 1996 Article: 42751 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:20:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4pl9ln$sao@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31bbafb8.9262661@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:22:47 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote: >On Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:23:11 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote: >>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote: >> >> >>But isn't the Nizkor leaders >>> like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to >>> shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with >>> pressures? >> >> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of >>Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here. >>That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also >>called a conspiracy. >> >> Who else would do it be a holohugger? >> >I wouldn't believe on word of what Mr. Giwer says anyway, if there is >to be any truth to what Mr. Giwer says, then let who ever is in charge >of Combase step forward and verify this, other wise Mr. Giwer's post >is just another load in a mountain of offal that Mr. Giwer brings to >Usenet. Is this how holohuggers justify harrassing my family? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:20 PDT 1996 Article: 42755 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The case of the missing file Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:22:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4pl2oa$ia6@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <31b6f1cc.7611781@news.pacificnet.net> <31b8bf94.2305806@news.pacificnet.net>