The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1996/giwer.0596


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 09:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34241 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:10:32 GMT
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:24:40 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!> !Something you predicted over ten days ago.  How do you explain
>!> !your stand up psychic routine?
> 
>!>Some people, UNLIKE ME,have enough MISDIRECTED respect for ComBase not
>!> to make email from them public.  Its really quite a simple matter.

>!IOW - you're lying as usual.

>I'm lying??  Gosh... ALL YOU ARE IS A LIAR, I mean there arent even
>connections to most of your lies, its just made up out of the air crap.

>But this one is a mistake on your part. You see, not only do I know
>absolutely who the liar is in the case, so does George.

>If anyone here believes anything you have to say, they're... hmmm...
>hmmm... WHACKED OUT JEWS! :)

>There you go Alec. You can use that as your spurious proof in the here
>and now that I, not Giwer is the anti-Semite around here.

>What a yuck you are.

	You and OBC have so much in common you should get together and
compare notes.  You two could coordinate your attacks better that
way.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 09:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34242 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:16:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m0r6a$pc5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
>> 
>>>> The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made 
>>>> publically available is  actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a 
>>>> gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber. 
>> 
>>>Mr. Raven, if "Baracke X," the gas chamber and crematorium that was built
>>>in 1942, was a delousing facility, why then was the gas chamber
>>>camouflaged as shower room? 
>> 
>>	Upon what basis do you say camouflaged?  That copper pipes were
>>missing?
>> 
>>>> Your account is typical of many GIs who heard rumors of how terrible the 
>>>> Germans were, and upon returning home claimed to be eyewitnesses to all kinds 
>>>> of things that simply were not there.
>> 
>>>And your infantile denial, Mr. Raven, is typical of the Nazi apologia so
>>>often demonstrated by Holocaust deniers. 
>> 
>>	So you agree with Ferree that he did in fact participate in the
>>liberation of a camp that did in fact have a gas chamber?
>> 
>>	You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while just
>>the other day someone said there was never any such claim.

>    That would have been me.  It looks like I was in error.
>    I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
>    while the camps within Germany proper were work camps.  I did not
>    realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps.  I
>    stand corrected.  Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.

	It is always my pleasure to do so but I must ask you, why would
you only accept without question or verification when they make
matters worse than what you previously believed?  Why are you not
skeptical of this claim that is new to you?  
  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 09:20:18 PDT 1996
Article: 34244 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:30:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21444 alt.revisionism:34244

jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:


>Secondly, why do you infer Mr. McVay's future or present tax-exempt status
>from the fact that he doesn't work for anybody?  Unless you know something
>I don't (and I seriously doubt that), this is neither a necessary nor
>sufficient condition for tax-exempt status.  But I wouldn't really know,
>because I am only familiar with U.S. tax code ... which brings me to my
>next point.

	A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status.  It is
unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
involved with secular history.  But if it is religious history
that makes Nizkor a religious site.  



---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 09:20:19 PDT 1996
Article: 34245 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:30:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4lsqan$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 

>[snip]

>> >Here's a somewhat interesting adendum on UFOs from Carl Sagan's new book,
>> >_The Demon-Haunted World_ (pp.69-70,72):
>> 
>> >"...Essentially all the UFO cases were anecdotes, something asserted.
>> >UFO's were described variously as rapidly moving or hovering; disc-shaped,
>> >cigar-shaped, or ball-shaped; moving silently or noisily; with a fiery
>> >exhaust, or with no exhaust at all; accompanied by flashing lights, or
>> >uniformly glowing with a silvery cast, or self-luminous. The diversity of
>> >the observations hinted that they had no common origin, and that the use
>> >of UFOs or 'flying saucers" served only to confuse the issue by grouping
>> >generically a set of unrelated phenomena. 
>> 
>> And no different from all of the gassing stories.  They are all
>> anecdotal without the least physical evidence.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer, does not alert the reader that such
>physical evidence exists. It does. There were cynanide traces found in
>L.Keller 1 (which had a gas-tight door) of Krema II. There were "corpse
>chutes" leading to the ground from from L.Keller 1 which were blocked off,
>indicating it was a gas chambers. (The "corpses" walked down into the gas
>chamber via stairs.)  Not to mention that official Nazi corrspondance
>referred to it as a "gassing cellar" and "special cellar." Then there are
>the aerial photos that shown the vent structures on the roof of L.Keller
>1, thus corroborating eyewitness testimony that Zycklon B was poured into
>four introduction columns (which were noted on the meorandum of acceptance
>for Krema II) and into the gas chamber. 

	And you are still dumb enough to keep harping on air being a gas
and therefore airtight is gastight is technically a true
statement.  

	Your four introduction columns are not supported by the pictures
or the rest of the testimony.  

	What else are you going to claim?


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 09:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 34246 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:15:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>  
>>  	Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>>  there is none.

>	You continue to make this assertion.  You have yet to explain why 
>Maloney and Frank, two men convicted on testimony without physical evidence (in 
>Frank's case the prosecutors deliberately did not produce physical evidence that 
>was in their posession) still languish in Graterford State Prison.  Nor have you gotten 
>off your fat duff to explain to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that this miscarriage of 
>justice was perpetrated. 

	Will you explain why testimony is not given a number and kept in
the property room?  Testimony is not evidence for the manyth
time.  The details of a particular case do not change testimony
into evidence.  

	And as I said in the beginning, oh killfile challenged one, there
are cases where a conviction can be obtained without evidence.
Certainly bank robbers do not need to be caught with the stolen
money as it is expected they will not have it.  It is not always
necessary to find a murder weapon or even to have a body.  

	But here we have the claim of a million+ gassings in one small
area and the best we have are a few parts per billion of cyanide
and a few traces of bone fragments as physical evidence.  Perhaps
you are impressed by that but were you on the side of the defense
I certainly would not have to suggest ways to take apart that
evidence. 

>>  >>	You are a lying little shit and you know it.  You know testimony
>>  >>is not evidence.  

>	The teaching of every law school and every judge in the United States 
>disagrees with you.  For some reason I do not find that surprising.

	That is of course testimony is numbered and kept in the property
room.  That is why the oath begins "The evidence you are about to
give."  

	You know, at one time I was told that the new entrants to law
school were given a few lectures on analytic thought and at some
time in their tour had to evidence same.  I am beginning to think
I was mislead.  

	The marks on test bullet may or may not match those of the bullet
found in the body.  The testimony of the expert may or may not
claim they match.  It is the pictures of the marks that are given
to the jury that is evidence.  The testimony about the marks is
only an opinion.

	=====

	Are you using your real name and are you in fact licensed in
Pennsylvania?  If either of these is false would you please
provide the correct information.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 10:14:40 PDT 1996
Article: 34253 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the gang of six
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:42:58 GMT
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: 	It is not hard to explain.  I find the same interest in dealing
>: with creationists, people who believe in the Flood of Noah,
>: believe in Velikovsky, UFOs, ritual satanic child abuse and what
>: the political system of the US considers liberals.  

>And yet, with the possible exception of liberals, Giwer's tactics are
>pretty damned similar to those of most of the above.  Creationists,
>for example, tend to pick some trivial aspect of evolutionary theory,
>present it as meaning something other than what it means, and draw
>conclusions from it which wouldn't follow even if it did.  Now, look
>at Giwer's twisting of an insignificant phrase in the Goldhagen book,
>or his assertion that the Nazis couldn't have had an official policy
>of genocide because gassing isn't mentioned in the Wannsee document.

	Now you are acting like a creationist as I have never made any
such assertion about the document.  Why would you, like a
creationist misrepresenting evolution, misrepresent what I have
said?  

>Note the similiarities?  Note that creationists are challenging an
>established and universally accepted scientific theory, while 
>deniers are challenging an established and universally accepted
>historical fact, but that each feel they can do so without any 
>evidence at all.  Note the glee in the voices of each when minor
>inconsistencies pop up.  

	The gassing is hardly a minor inconsistancy.  It is like finding
a dinosaur with a mammilian head.  And if you have not been
paying attention or listening only to the holohuggers, the
question has only been about these gassing claims.  

>Sorry, Matt--you're making the wrong analogy, here.  You're the
>creationist in this fight.

	When you join talk.origins you will learn what you are talking
about but you do not now.  

	In the mean time the closest creationist analogy is with
believers in the Noachian Flood.  Where did all the evidence of
the world wide flood go?  God removed it.  Where did all the
evidence of this gassing go?  The Nazis removed it.  

	But we can also see examples of it in the "he who believes in
evolution denies god" approach.  In this case it is "he who
questions gassing is an antisemite and a nazi."  

	How can you miss these parallels?  	


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 12:41:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34256 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:58:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4ls76k$ats@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>>>	It is obvious the technology mentioned was well within the
>>>>capability of the Germans, at that time in history.
>>>> 
>>>>	What with the new Goldhagen book drawing up to 500,000 Germans
>>>>into being directly involved, we should suppose the Germans had
>>>>inquired about the nation for ideas on the best way to exterminate the
>>>>Jews.
>> 
>>>Nope. Didn't happen. In fact, there was opposition to some of what was
>>>going on. Especially so to German citizens. This is why the Nazis were
>>>forced to move their killing sites either far underground or out of
>>>country. I suggest that the uninformed, such as you, Mr. Moran, ought
>>>to read a book called *Nazi Doctors* by Lipton for information about
>>>some of this opposition.
>> 
>>	As the truth has changed from gas chambers all over Germany to
>>only outside of Germany just what German citizens would have been
>>of concern?  Are you talking about tourists?  What does this
>>"underground" mean much less "far underground"?  

>    GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
>    when in fact he is just making up lies.  It has never been asserted
>    that there were "gas chambers all over Germany."  Giwer may respond to
>    this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
>    a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true.  he
>    won't respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.

	Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
Germany?  
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 12:41:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34262 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: keeping up to date
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 06:24:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:51:35 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>How do you know I never complained to the police?

>!They said so.

>Oh, you AND Grynspan call the local police of users you suspect are Jews
>and ask about them? 

	No.  Asking after the person you clearly posted that you were
when you "explained" the use of a handle by complaining about
threats you received from another of your handles. 

And you think I'm nuts for warning people they
>should not use their real names in this medium?  You make my points so
>well Giwer I couldn't plant anyone to do as well as you do. :)

	Do you need another list of your handles, MS Stern?  Forgotten
some of them?

>!The El Lago police department of course.  So which one did you
>!file a complaint with?  

>What complaint. Do you even know what your taking about? 

>!>Is ComBase still doing that finacial investigation on me as you said
>!>they were doing? BTW, what's your credibility quotient these days? 
>!>On a 1 to 10? :)

>!That is not what I said.  

>Bullshit.

	What headers?

>----begin message------
>From: mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) 
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh 
>Organization: ComBaseCommunications 
>Date: 1 Jan 1996 03:16:13 GMT 

>Did I ever tell you the one about [Rack Jite] exposing himself to a yard
>full of preschoolers?.... 

>Any rational person hates liberals. Don't forget it is liberals who
>expose themselves to schoolyards.
>That is why you were brought to the attention of the police... 

>BTW: I saw the message you have posted about the IPS I use. Seems they
>have determined that it is malicious slander. They have also determined
>that your only defense is to prove your allegations bout me are true in
>a court (in Florida) to a jury. They have further determined that
>material harm will accrue from that posting. Should you notice inquiries
>into your net work in the near future relax.
>That will only be their attorney determining if you are worth the cost
>of a libel suit. It seems youveither failed to invoke the anonymizing
>routine or it failed to function. The entire audit trail came through.
>It was an amusing read. 
>----end message-------

>And what's even more absurd is that I didnt post any message about your
>IPS at that time. You lying scumbag...
>And you didnt answer my question.
>What's your credibility quotient these days on a 1 to 10?

	Read it again.  



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 12:41:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34266 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>  >	It came from the imagination of one T. Moran.  An individual with 
>>  >obsessive anti-Semitic beliefs whose ability to do basic arithmetic (i.e. 
>computing 
>>  >how many trees will fit in one square mile -- a task he found impossible) is less 
>>  >than that of a reasonably bright second grader.
>>  
>>  	So as to not have misquoted, he should have simply said all
>>  Germans?

>	No.  If  if L'il Tommy had wished not to misqoute him, he should have 
>quoted him accurately.  Something that you, for example, have yet to do.  In fact, 
>you do not have the foggiest notion of what Goldhagen said.

	You mean everyone here has been misquoting him?

	Still trying to figure out how to use a killfile I see.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 12:41:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34267 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  	Then were did his 50,000,000 number come from or did someone here
>>>>  misquote him?
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>	It came from the imagination of one T. Moran.  An individual with 
>>>obsessive anti-Semitic beliefs whose ability to do basic arithmetic (i.e. computing 
>>>how many trees will fit in one square mile -- a task he found impossible) is less 
>>>than that of a reasonably bright second grader.

>>	So as to not have misquoted, he should have simply said all
>>Germans?

>Tell me what *his* explanation is on pp. 475-476. And after you read
>his methods on pp. 463-468 you inform this group again that he didn't
>explain his method. The explanatin of the method is also called
>Appendix 1.

	Try posting it some time.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 13:36:44 PDT 1996
Article: 34270 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 01:24:44 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>But in your case, its nothing more than a probe for Mr. Curtis' "hot
>>>button."
>>
>>>Someday you will have to explain the attraction to us lesser mortals.
>>
>>	You amuse me.

>Yes, yes. That is obvious. But why?

	I should make this a macro as no one appears to read the answer
when I post it.  

	Debunking is an old and respected avocation.  That make
holohuggers, creationists, Christian Scientists (preferably with
appendicitis,) flat earthers, liberals, etc all equal targets of
opportunity.  

	Learning to deal with all of the arguments of creationists was as
good as earning a degree in propaganda techniques and the
exploitative use of logical fallacies.

	This subject is somewhat different.  Although it is heavy on the
propaganda it relies more upon emotional defenses such as "my
family" and "how dare you" kind of thing.  As such it bears some
striking similarities to the liberal "starve our children"
approach to selling a unique version of the truth.  

	I am really quite curious how people let themselves get into such
a belief system and what I can only loosely refer to as a mode of
thinking.  However it happens, there are people like this in the
world and I am interested in learning to deal with them.  This
particular conference simply happens to have a high density of
such types.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 17:35:20 PDT 1996
Article: 34284 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>> 
>>> What outfit Grynspan? You could have supplied the name so I could
>>> check out this continuation of a lie. The more you lie the deeper you
>>> get and the redder your face becomes. Unless you are used to lying
>>> that is.

>>What lie? That I didn't verify Al's actual participation?

>>As for what outfit it was - once I checked it out I didn't bother to
>>tattoo it on my forehead. I checked on it about 5 years ago, verified
>>the outfit and then tossed the slip of paper into a drawer. 

>>Since I didn't bring this subject up, I see no reason for you to call
>>anybody that doesn't supply you with proof embossed on tablets of stone
>>a liar.

>>You want more proof? You dig it up. I just verified what I knew.

>From Giwer your pal:

><<	Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous?  You
>people
>will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear. >>

>Seems like someone should have heard of him.

>LOL!

	You folks certainly are upping the standards of evidence.  Now
even the very existance of every eyewitness has to be proven.  It
is not clear why you folks are doing this.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 17:35:22 PDT 1996
Article: 34287 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The irony of birth control (was: Four Quick Questions for Milton Kleim)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:45:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:18922 alt.politics.white-power:27451 alt.revisionism:34287

Caesar  wrote:

>In article <4m3t6f$90@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
>           bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA "Les Griswold" writes:

>> 
>> Kevin Filan (rakshasa@panix.com) writes:
>> 
>> (snip)
>> 
>> Kevin:
>> >>>     What would you consider an "activity calculated to encourage 
>> >>> abortion among high-quality Aryan women?"
>> 
>> Milton:
>> >>Some of the more pernicious "ZPG" campaigns, insisting that Aryan women
>> >>should forego children because "there are too many starving children
>> >>already" would be an example of this.
>> > 
>> >       The birthrates in Western European countries are lower than the 
>> > birthrates in "Third World" countries, true. This is due, I believe, to a 
>> > number of factors, not the least of which being the ready availability of 
>> > contraceptives and the relatively high education levels of women in those 
>> > countries.
>> 
>> Ironic, isn't it, that where birth control could do the most good, it's shunned.> 

>The biggest damage to the environment is caused by people in
>the *developed* world. Some environmentalists have claimed
>the world can only support 2 billion people, if all the people
>consumed as much energy and caused as much pollution as the
>average US resident.

	They would claim it because they are idiots.

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 22:40:15 PDT 1996
Article: 34314 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 06:44:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <318774e3.1761774@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
> 
>> If I made a deal with you where I would give you $100 for every
>> article you could produce from a major newspaper to show Jews speaking
>> out against something Jewish and you were to give me $5 for everyone I
>> could produce to show it the other way, you would owe me money. 

>Of course, this is utterly facetious.  It assumes that "Jews" do things
>that are praiseworthy and blameworthy *as a collective group* in equal
>proportions to each other.  Even if you believe that "the Jews" do as much
>or more harm than good, you're wrong.

	And the idea is a absurd as what I have been reading here about
what Arabs do as a group but those are still posted by people who
hate all Arabs even when they are not Arabs.  

	Do you have any idea why those people are so hateful?


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 22:40:16 PDT 1996
Article: 34315 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 06:35:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4m3bg5$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >Ho"ss (and Eichmann) didn't switch from anything. 
>> 
>> You need to be explaining this to JM not me.  

>No, your're the one who needs remedial (and psychiatric) help, Giwer. Not
>Mr. McCarthy.

	What does that have to do with JM being the person you are
disagreeing with?

>> >What Ho"ss (and Eichmann) _did_ do was decide _against_ mass killings by 
>> >shooting, by engine exhaust such as was used in the gas vans, and CO
>gas such > >as was used in the "euthanasia" centers of the T-4 program in
>Germany. 
>> 
>> Why did they decide against the CO program at Treblinka which was
>> equally effective and without the attendant handling problems?  

>Let's see.... In the  summer of 1941 Himmler summoned Ho"ss to Berlin and
>told him that Hitler had ordered the extermination of the Jews the but
>because the "existing extermination sites in the East" could not carry out
>such a massive operation Ho"ss was to turn Auschwitz into a large-scale
>killing center. A short time later Eichmann went to see Ho"ss at Auschwitz
>to start planning on turning Auschwitz into an extermination camp. One of
>the topics discussed was what method of mass killing should be used.
>(_Death Dealer_, p.27.)

	Excuse me but a secondary reference is not sufficient.  

	It also means the entire Wannsee conference was absolutely
unnecessary as it "changed" a policy of extermination in the East
to a policy of extermination in the east, i.e. no change at all.
Perhaps it was just one of the excuses for a "professional
conference" at a tourist attraction.  It is certainly not unknown
but today we would correctly describe Wannsee as a boondoggle.

	Someone posted a suggestion that the entire Wannsee protocol was
a forgery.  If what you are posting is true then it is a further
indication that it was in fact a forgery.

	If you folks really wanted to establish the truth of what
happened you would be comparing all of the contradictory claims.

>According to Ho"ss, in his memoirs, killing the expected "huge numbers" by
>shooting would be "absolutely impossible" and would place a "tremendous
>strain" on the SS troops. Scratch that idea. Subsequently, Eichman and
>Ho"ss decided that "only gas was suitable" as the instrument of mass
>murder. They considered using CO, which was used in the T-4 program, they
>judged that the production of the the amount of gas needed for Auschwitz
>would be a problem, as well as that too many "intricate installations"
>would be required. Scratch that idea too. Then they considered using
>engine exhaust, which was used to kill in the gas vans, but judged that
>this "was not suitable" because of the "expected mass transports to
>Auschwitz" would be too great. Nix that idea also. As a result of this,
>Ho"ss and Eichmann didn't reach a decision on the specific gas to be used.
>Eichmann, however, wanted to find a gas was "easy to produce" and that
>would not require any "special installations."(_Death Dealer_, pp.28-29.)

	"Intricate installations"? when a description of a fully
functioning system at Treblinka right along the railroad siding
has just been posted here and save for the occasional bullet in
the head would have been quite satisfactory and much less
hazardous to the orderlies and occasion senior information
officer. 

	Again, if you folks were interested in finding out what really
happened you would be comparing these claims to each other.

>In the fall of 1941, before September, Ho"ss met Eichmann in Berlin to
>discuss the extermination operations against the Jews. Eichmann, after
>searching for months, has still had not found a suitable gas. Later, in
>September of 1941, as a direct result of Fritzsch's "experiment" with
>Zyklon B in Block 11 at Auschwitz, did Ho'ss and Eichmann agree that they
>had found the "easy to produce" homicidal gas that didn't require any
>"special installations" they were looking for. 

	But we also know that he knew it would only work so effectively
in dry conditions with a large number of "vents" to introduce it,
something that does not describe the converted morgues.

>Zyklon B was definetely easy to produce, as it had been in mass commercial
>production for years as a fumigant for pest control. It was inexpensive
>too. A invoice from Degesch to Obersturmfuehrer Kurt Gerstein (Chief
>Disinfection Officer in the the Office of the Hygenic Chief of the
>Waffen-SS) on February 14, 1944, shows 195 kg of Zyklon B priced at 975
>RM, or 5 RM per kg. (_The Confessions of Kurt Gerstein_, p.93-94.) Add to
>this that Zklon B was quite lethal, killed quickly, had minimal "clean up"
>problems, and the amount needed for pest control AND homicidal gassing at
>Auschwitz have been estimated have been fairly small- about 1,700 kg per
>year; then Zyklon B fit Eichmann's requirements to a tee. (The Destruction
>of the European Jews_, p.570fn.) 

>So, if Zyklon B fit all of Eichmann's requiremnts, why would he need
>something else? Especially when he had looked fruitlessly for months
>without finding anything as good?

	In fact we know that save for the occasional failures we had
death from CO in something between 15-20 and 30 minutes with a
system using many engines that only required the occasional
bullet and one of the attendant and consequent handling hazards
of HCN.  We also know there were sonderkommandos who would do
anything to stay alive so certainly the coup de grace task could
have been assigned to them.  

	It is also unclear why one of the number two most powerful Nazis
would have been concerned about a few RM here and there when he
was obviously in charge of billions of them.  It is not clear why
he would have wasted his time on sums that he would have ignored
in far less than the round off errors.  And all of that regarding
only one camp?  

	And the clean up problems were far from minor.  What we have so
far is a total and complete absense of any mention of the cleanup
problems regarding this pellet form vice simple aireation of the
room as is all CO would require.  

	Certainly at some point one of the despicable sonderkommandos
would certainly have mentioned sweeping up and shoveling the
feces and the pellets while still wearing a gas mask.  It isn't
the type of experience one would expect to go unmentioned.  And
given the time contraints imposed by the huge throughput rates
one can not expect this to have been a trivial matter.

	"Macht schnell" could not have been the operative term in this.  

>> >For one reason or another those methods were deemed unacceptable for the 
>> >scope of the mass killings planned at Auschwitz. After Fritzcsh's successful
>> >"experiment" in Block 11 with Zyklon B, Ho"ss (and Eichmann) decided that
>> >Zyklon B would do nicely as the homicidal agent to be used at Auschwitz. 
>> 
>>         But the CO in use at Treblinka was just as good as we know.  

>Not in Ho"ss's opinion (_Death Dealer,pp.42-43):

>"I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer
>being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.

>"Treblinka was built directly near the railroad tracks and had several
>chambers capable of holding hundreds of people. The Jews went straight
>into the gas chambers without undressing by way of a platform which was
>level with the railroad cars. An engine room equipped with various types
>of engines taken from large trucks and tanks had been built next to the
>gas chambers. These were started up and the exhaust gases were fed by
>pipes into the gas chambers, thereby killing the people inside. The
>process was continued for more than a half hour until eveything was silent
>inside the rooms. In an hour's time, the gs chambers were opened and the
>bodies were taken out, undressed, and burned on  a frame made from metal
>railroad tracks.

	Been here, done this, and the best we have is an HCN 10-15 vice
this and another report of 15-20 and 30 minutes for silence.
That they might have waited longer than the 30 minutes time to
silence in this case is of interest but not much when the mention
of extra waiting time is not in the other stories.  One would
expect a good rule of thumb to be double the silence time.

	And, FWIW, the T-Shirt sucks.  Get the ball cap.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 22:40:16 PDT 1996
Article: 34318 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He is a Loser!
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 02:02:47 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>: >In article <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>: >	You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.

>: >All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer's skin!
>: >Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he resorts to these
>: >baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention from his own
>: >intellectual dishonesty.

>: 	Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority? 

>: 	Are you really saying that all Jews who believe in a god, who are
>: Jews by religion, are superior to all atheist Jews?  It certainly
>: appears that way.  But perhaps you can find a way out of that
>: clear consequence of your assertion.  

>INTELLECTUAL PAUPACY ALERT:  The Giwer's reading skills have apparently 
>atrophied to the point where he cannot see how off-the-mark his own 
>trolling is.

	So you you can say these people are definitely religion jews or
birth jews?

>Mr. Katz clearly stated that Mr. Giwer when outclassed intellectually, 
>resorted to ad hominem or irrelevant attacks, this time on the religious 
>beliefs of certain persons posting here.  That's all Mr. Katz said.  If 
>Mr. Giwer's eyesight is so bad that he cannot see that Mr. Katz nowhere 
>discusses in any way the accuracy of Mr. Giwer's religious claim, then 
>perhaps it's time for Mr. Giwer to get those cataracts corrected.

	It would be clear you are in error had you avoided the overactive
editting.

>[snip]

>: >	What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>: >The truth is fragile and always needs protection from the Giwers of
>: >the world!

>: 	The truth is in fear of me.  You view me as far more powerful
>: than I really am.  In fact I am nothing but characters on your
>: screen.  But a superman like you needs protect your truth from
>: me.

>Mr. Giwer is disingenuous here.  He is not "characters on your screen."  
>He is an immature troll of advanced years who refuses to comprehend that 
>he will be intellectually accountable for the statements he makes here.

	Accountable?  Frightening!  By who?  You children?  Or do you
mean if I should ever run or president?  Do you not understand
how stupid you sound?
 	 
>: 	If half what is said about me were true then the consequences of
>: what I am saying would support your truth, saving you the effort
>: of needing to defend it.

>CONTORTED LOGIC ALERT:  None of what Mr. Giwer just said is true.  His 
>own repugnance, true as it is, still does not in any way lessen the 
>degree or nature of the attacks by him on the truth.

	Truth!  Underattack!  And morph into superheroes to defend it!  

	Do you realize how silly you sound?



---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 22:40:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34320 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:54:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>	There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>>>>holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.  

>>>And where does this lead us. 

>>	It leads us to you being unable to show any bigotry in the
>>statement no matter which definition you attempt to twist.

>>>Gassing was the cause of death of what percentage of the 12,000
>>>non-combantants?

>>>Euthanasia programs exclusive of gassing(injections) were responsible
>>>for what percentage of the non-combantant deaths within and without
>>>Germany?

>>>Shooting was responsible for what persentage of the non-combatant
>>>deaths within and without Germany?

>>>Answer these with citations. Thanks.

>>	You first.  Show me the bigotry in the statement I made.  

>Here is the answer I gave you in an earlier post:

>There is no bigotry in the statement per se, 

	That is what I said you idiot.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  2 23:52:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34338 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Jewish Propaganda Website
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:31:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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William Grosvenor  wrote:

>The new Jewish propaganda website is at:
>http://www.jewishpost.com/jewishpost/holocaust/

>Baconlovers invited,naturally.

	Muslims are the only ones who keep Kosher these days.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 01:54:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47146 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:11:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jakel@eos.bony.com (Jake Livni) wrote:

>In article <830972166snz@augur.demon.co.uk>,
>Caesar   wrote:

>>*Hezbullah* has only killed a few Israeli civilians.
>>Israel made 500,000 people refugees.

>You are comparing apples with oranges.

>Worse yet, you are comparing the deliberate and proud policy 
>of Islamic murdereres who routinely and almost exclusively 
>target civilians ("Devil Infidels") with the Israeli policy
>of retaliation against those responsible and caught in the
>act of firing their rockets.

	How quickly the truth is a victim in these matters.  

	At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
on those caught in the act.  The claim was that they were
attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

	Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
limiting their attacks to only the militant wing.  Either that or
they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians. 



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 02:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 34359 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:36:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

	It is good to see another contradiction of one true believer by
another true believer.  It is so rare.

>In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu   wrote:
>> 
>> #   I've already say that this was wrong according to Hoess affidavit
>> #  In that case, he claimed that he visited Treblinka and that
>> #  a lot of Jews had been gased there before he decided to adopt a
>> #  new way. And you know as me that this could have happen only
>> #  after the summer of 1942 at least, or after July 1942.
>> #  One could suggest that Hoess did an error with a date, but
>> #  an error with a fictive visit?....
>> 
>> Post the whole part of Hoess' testimony, so we can see exactly
>> what he said. Possibly, he considered at some stage to shift
>> to using engine exhaust, and visited Treblinka to see if this
>> was a good idea or not. But, again, Treblinka began operating
>> only after mid-1942, and Zyklon-B was used to murder people
>> in Auschwitz since the end of 1941.

>"I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer
>being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.

>"Treblinka was built directly near the railroad tracks and had several
>chambers capable of holding hundreds of people. The JEws went straight
>into the gas chambers without undressing by way of a platform which was
>level with the railroad cars. And engine room equipped with various types
>of engines taken from large trucks and tanks had been built next to the
>gas chambers. These were started up and the exhaust gases were fed by
>pipes into the gas chambers, thereby killing the people inside. The
>process was continued for more than a half hour until eveything was silent
>inside the rooms. In an hour's time, the gs chambers were opened and the
>bodies were taken out, undressed, and burned on  frame made from mtal
>railroad tracks.

	Here we have a minor contradiction of another true truth
regarding the time to kill but it introduces a major problem with
another true truth of the 1000 per hour throughput rate for
gassing at this place.  

>"The fires were fed with wood, and the bodies were sprayed every once in a
>while with used oil. During my visit everyone who was gassed was dead. But
>I was told that performance of the engines was not always consistant, so
>that the exhaust gases were often not strong enough to kill everyone in
>the chambers. Many of them were only unconscious and had to be finished
>off by shooting them. I had heard the same story in Chelmno, and I was
>told by Eichmann that these problems had occurred in other places.

	And here we have the occasional use of a bullet being the sole
reason to switch to the much more hazardous HCN which was of
course commonly handled by orderlies and occasionally by the head
of political correctness at Auschwitz.

>"Another problem which arose in Chelmno was that the Jews sometimes broke
>the sides of the trucks and attempted to escape.

>"Experiance has shown that the prussic acid called Cyclon B caused death
>with far greater speed and certainty, especially if the rooms were kept
>dry and airtight with the people packed closely together, and provided
>they were fitted with as large a number of intake vents as possible. So
>far as Auschwitz is concerned, I have never known or heard of a single
>person being found alive when the gas chambers were opened a half an hour
>after the gas had been poured in.*

>Source: _Death Dealer: the memoirs of the SS kommandant at Auschwitz_; pp.42-43.

	This must have been a bitch of a problem at the modified morges.
One presumes the term Leichen in Leichenkeller refers to what
grew in the dampness.  Of course that would have been simply a
generic name or perhaps one of the German language experts here
find a different meaning for leichen.  

	It is also unclear what he is referring to with "large number of
intake vents" unless it is a reference to places where gas was
introduced.  Yet we consistantly read of one or two person
introductions into rather small places.  If anything is clear
here it is that whatever Hoess knew about the process, save for
the airtight feature in common with bomb shelters, was never
incoporated into the design changes to the morgues.

	Obviously they would have needed to have been kept dry and there
would need be many large place to introduce this gas.  Instead we
find an underground room chosen as opposed to an above ground
"undressing room" and a maximum of four vents each 9 inches
square.  




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 02:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 34367 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Message for Hitler's birthday - zgram960420
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:21:21 GMT
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fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>In article <4lqaco$b0h@news.ios.com>,
>>>Dave (abh@npl.com) whines:

>>>	Incase you missed it. The Soviets killed far more people than
>>>	did the Nazis.

>>>In case Mr. Dave missed it, no one disputes the murders of the Soviets!

>>	If the claim were that it had been done by many different and
>>mutually conflicting means of execution and it were a matter of
>>public debate who knows what might happen?  On the other hand
>>Russia is releasing the records about itself.

>Neat.

>Just like Germany did 51 years ago.

	You mean like steaming, electrocution and suffocation?  All of
those were methods of mass execution only 51 years ago.  Why
would you question any of them now?  

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 02:13:32 PDT 1996
Article: 34369 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:11:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
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jakel@eos.bony.com (Jake Livni) wrote:

>In article <830972166snz@augur.demon.co.uk>,
>Caesar   wrote:

>>*Hezbullah* has only killed a few Israeli civilians.
>>Israel made 500,000 people refugees.

>You are comparing apples with oranges.

>Worse yet, you are comparing the deliberate and proud policy 
>of Islamic murdereres who routinely and almost exclusively 
>target civilians ("Devil Infidels") with the Israeli policy
>of retaliation against those responsible and caught in the
>act of firing their rockets.

	How quickly the truth is a victim in these matters.  

	At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
on those caught in the act.  The claim was that they were
attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

	Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
limiting their attacks to only the militant wing.  Either that or
they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians. 



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 02:34:30 PDT 1996
Article: 34373 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:52:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4m7592$c2s@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>After reading this edifying exchange between Mssrs. Baron and Keren, I
>would like to suggest that you step outside to exchange blows.

>As a newbie to this board, I was expecting greater civility especially
>from Mr. Keren who hitherto has demonstrated at least a certain scholarly
>air.  But this kind of intemperance only invites further incivility on the
>board.

>When I chose to question a half dozen aspects of the legend, I tried to
>use restraint and respect.  Apparently Mr. Keren understands neither
>concept, and it is not to his credit.  Moreover, his attempt to push Mr.
>Baron's button by dissing only the testimony of Dresden bespeaks a
>fundamental inhumanity that IMHO has no place in a public forum.

	The "academic" claims of everyone here are certainly worth
dropping a quarter for verification.  My experience in these
public exchanges started in 1980.  My experience is also that the
grander the claim the less likely to be true.  

	Credentials are never to be taken as true as given.  Were I to
dredge up old memories I could give a long list.  But in this
case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates.  Department
members are likely the same.  (A department member sig even
vanished when I mentioned that point.)   Note the near complete
lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
the internet.

	Note here we have identification without what one would basically
expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
those claiming the credentials.  One has to accept that
accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
fact available through this medium.  

	But the few references to the FAQs find them asking more
questions than they are answering.  The talk.origins FAQs at
least has dozens of answers to the creationists and the flood
lovers and take as little guff from those who have no
comprehension of physical law.  

	For example the t.o FAQs will provide dozens of examples of
transitional species in answer to the claim there are no
transitional species.  The holocaust FAQS are silent dozens of
examples of death from CO in 15-30 minutes as well as silent on
dozens of examples of cremation times and all the rest.

	It is barely a fair comparison to equate holohuggers with
creationists.  At least the creationists have invented their own
fabulous sciences to support their claims.  The holohuggers have
not even bothered to create their own fabulous science as an
underpinning for their claims.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 02:34:32 PDT 1996
Article: 34383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:02:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4m3jlq$pl@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: 

>[snip]

>> >FLAPPING GUMS ALERT: Has Giwer seen a photo of the peephole with the wire
>> >mesh on the inside of the gas-tight door? No. If he had he would noticed
>> >the the mesh is not nearly small enough to prevent glass fragments from
>> >"flying into the room". It is, however, small enough to prevent fists from
>> >shattering the glass....
>> 
>> Sinister meaning alert.  Keep in mind that everyone is starting
>> from zero here to determine the meaning of the design features of
>> the building.  

>PAUAPACY ALERT: Giwer, in his dementia, fails to realize that everyone is
>NOT "starting from zero here to determine the meaning of the design
>features of
>the building." Only Giwer is. The historical record clearly shows, from
>the physical, documentary, and testimonial evidence that the "design
>features" of L.Keller 1 indicates it was used as a homicidal gas chamber. 

	Continuting to refuse to answer questions I see.  

>> And, yes, I have seen the picture of the one that was found
>> someplace else and then determined to have been the door for that
>> building.  If we had the thickness of the glass we could shed
>> some more light upon this interesting bit of detective work.

>REALITY CHECK: One need only to reference Dr. Piper's essay on the gas
>chambers in _Anatomy_ (pp.166-167) where he writes: 

>"...The edges of the door and the door frame were padded with felt. A
>circular peephole, made of two plates of glass 8 mm thick and air-proofed
>with rubber gaskets, was mounted in the door at eye-level. After several
>incidents in which the victims trapped inside broke the glass, the
>peephole was covered with a semi-circular grille on the gas-chamber
>side...."  

	Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>> >anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>> >give evidence of any such forgery? 
>> 
>> I merely point out that anything that has passed through Soviet
>> hands need be viewed with skepticism particularly if any of the
>> organizations that are known for creating forgeries are involved.

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>give evidence of any such forgery? 

	Continuing to refuse to anwer questions.

>[snip]

>> >REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>> >anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>> >give evidence of any such forgery? 
>> 
>> Of the HIV stories created by the KGB?  Or do you believe them?

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>give evidence of any such forgery? 

	Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: There were five Kremas with gas chambers at Auschwitz. one
>> >(Krema I) at Auschwitz I and four (Krema II-V) at Auschwitz II-Birkenau.
>> >All the Kremas at  Auschwitz II-Birkenau were demolished prior to the
>> >Nazis abandoning the camp. 
>> 
>> So?  Are you under the impression that they could not be
>> reconstructed from the ruins?  Not physically of course but from
>> observation.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems to be unaware that the Auschwitz-Birkenau State
>Museum deliberately chose not to recontruct Kremas II-V so as to preserve
>their actual states for posterity:

>"The Museum's decision not to restore the origional appearance of the gas
>chambers, crematoria, and most of the structures in Auschwitz II-Birkenau
>was undoubtably the right one. For example, the jury of the Auschwitz
>trial held in Frankfurt in the 1960's visited the site of the former
>murder camp several times, and on each visit were able to treat the site
>as constituting material evidence against the individual Nazis standing
>trial, and indeed against the entire Nazi murder apparatus. More recently,
>this approach to the conservation question was clearly a factor in the
>decision by Unesco to include the Auschwitz Museum in its World Heritage
>list." (Auschwitz: a history in photographs; p.262.)

	Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>> >Krema I was converted into am air raid shelter
>> >in 1943 and is the only surviving structure that was used as a homicidal
>> >gas chamber. Will Giwer except the reconstruction of Krema I as evidence
>> >of a homicidal gas chamber? 
>> 
>> That would depend upon the basis for the reconstruction.  That
>> would include the source of the information used for the
>> reconstruction and necessary design features that would be not be
>> found in a bomb shelter.  

>REALITY CHECK: The reconstruction of Krema I did not include the Krema
>structure, as it was intact. The reconstruction involved the recontitution
>of the incinerators, trolleys, etc. which were dismantled and stored at
>the camp. (Ibid. Caption to photo 167, p.156.)  

	Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>> But I see we are dealing with another bomb shelter here.  

>REALITY CHECK: A Polish munition bunker that was converted to a
>crematorium, which then had its morgue converted to a gas chamber, and
>then later converted to a bomb shelter. 

	as above

>> Looks like we will have to go with the design features of what are left
>> of the other buildings.  After all, it is your contention they
>> were modified for gassing.

>REALITY CHECK: The L.Keller 1s of Kremas II and III were indeed modified
>into homicidal gas chambers, during their construction, due to "the
>situation created by the 'special actions'" (_Anatomy_, p.216). Kremas IV
>and V, however, were never so modified. In fact, they were _designed_,
>specifically, with gas chambers. It is worth noting that the preliminary
>set of blueprints for Kremas IV and V were completed on August 14, 1942,
>with the definitive plans, which included the gas chambers, being
>completed on January 11, 1943,  while Kremas II and III were under
>construction. (Ibid. p.218.) The implications are quite clear: Kremas
>II-V, complete with gas chambers, where to be facilities of mass murder
>when they became operational. 

as above

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as usual, "ignores" that the Crakow report in fact
>> >establishes, by forensic examination, that HCN traces were indeed found in
>> >the remains of Krema II's L.Keller 1. This corroborates the testimonies
>> >and documentation that L.Keller 1 was indeed used for homicidal gassings. 
>> 
>> Or that it was used to kill off the rats who were eating the
>> corpses in the morgue.  

>FLAPPING GUMS ALERT: Giwer, of course, is simply flapping his gums again
>by claiming, without evidence, that rats were eating corpses in the morgue
>and this was why Zyklon B was used in them. 

	as above

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as usual, "ignores" that the Crakow report in fact 
>> >establishes, by forensic examination, that HCN traces were indeed found in
>> >the remains of Krema II's L.Keller 1. This corroborates the testimonies and 
>> >documentation that L.Keller 1 was indeed used for homicidal gassings.
>>
>>  Or used to get those rats.

>FLAPPING GUMS ALERT: Giwer, of course, is simply flapping his gums again
>by claiming, without evidence, that rats were eating corpses in the morgue
>and this was why Zyklon B was used in them.  

	as above

>[snip]
> 
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer of course "ignores" that such "necessary construction
>> >feature[s]" were either removed prior to demolition (i.e. the gas-tight
>> >door- which was found at the camp, the metal introduction colums, and the
>> >furnaces) or destroyed when the Krema was demolished (i.e the corpse
>> >chutes that were blocked off) with the possible exception of the vent
>> >holes in the roof of the gas chamber by which the Zyclon B was inserted
>> >into the introduction columns. 
>> 
>> And what of the necessary construction feature of a steel
>> reinforced concrete roof?  You can't have a gas chamber without
>> one of those.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer once more beats a dead horse only to end up
>bludgeoning himself in the process! L.Keller 1, the homicidal gas chamber,
>did indeed have a concrete roof re-inforced with re-bar. 

	as above.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 34384 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:31:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
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References: <4ldpjh$duc@Vir.com> <4m3bfc$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4m9opr$7c9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer  wrote:

># You are quite confused about IQ if you believe it has anything to
># do with guessing.  

>Does this mean that your answer to the question "why did a 'work
>camp' have so many cremation furnaces and morgue space?" - is "I
>don't know"?

	Not in the least.  Such a capital investment would have had a
design criteria that would have given a maximum expected
throughput rate plus as much more as the designers could add to
it, usually an engineering double.  If it went through two levels
of engineering a doubling at each level is common.  

	This is nothing uncommon in engineering.  Yet you are hanging one
of your hats on it.

># The undressing room is claimed to have been above ground and is
># clearly shown to be so in the K4 picture.  

>God, have mercy on us. 

	At least you did not hyphenate it.
	
>Giwer, I'm talking about KREMAS II & III. Their gas chambers
>and undressing rooms were underground. I'm NOT talking about 
>Krema IV, which was above ground level. 

	I will deal this this new assertion later.  However I note that
others have posted that the undressing room was above ground.
But hereinafter and so far as you are concerned, they were above
ground.	

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34386 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 08:11:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4lmrnn$dhm@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >>    I agree that Chuck's postings are threats and wish he would stop.  Just
>> >>    because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>> >>    reason to intimate physical threats.  There is no positive outcome that
>> >>    can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.
>> 
>> >I agree, Chuck get excited. The "Al Gentile" showed up on compuserve
>> >in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>> >McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. "Al Gentile" is just
>> >another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.
>> 
>>         Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous?  You people
>> will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.
>> 

>Its the "Avenue of the Righteous," Giwer. You know, where Oskar Schindler
>planted his tree? I'm sure once somebody contacts Yad Vashem and ask if
>this alleged Al Gentile was indeed declared a Righteous Gentile, we can
>settle the issue. 

	Thank you for the opportunity.  You are aware Schindler's wife is
still alive?

	You are aware that in early April of this year she denounced the
movie as a total fabrication of her deceased husband's motives?
That he was only interested in the money?  (As reported on the
ABC-TV news of course.  Of course I am only repeating what was
reported and there is no particular reason to believe the TV
news.)  

	When his Oskar Schindler's tree going to be "ausrotten"ed?

	But of course that would ruin one more myth so it will never
happen.   


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34397 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:28:03 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <4lmrnn$dhm@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >>    I agree that Chuck's postings are threats and wish he would stop.  Just
>>> >>    because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>>> >>    reason to intimate physical threats.  There is no positive outcome that
>>> >>    can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.
>>> 
>>> >I agree, Chuck get excited. The "Al Gentile" showed up on compuserve
>>> >in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>>> >McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. "Al Gentile" is just
>>> >another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.
>>> 
>>>         Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous?  You people
>>> will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.
>>> 

>>Its the "Avenue of the Righteous," Giwer. You know, where Oskar Schindler
>>planted his tree? I'm sure once somebody contacts Yad Vashem and ask if
>>this alleged Al Gentile was indeed declared a Righteous Gentile, we can
>>settle the issue. 

>We did, last year. No one heard of him. This was during a denier's
>braoching the same subject on compuserve so a couple of kindly sysops
>(myself and another)checked out the claim. There was nothing to it.

>Ain't that a hoot!

	You folks heard of Al Gentile a year ago on CI$?  Fascinating.
This guy gets around.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34398 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:48:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>>	As I said, you really don't understand scholarship.

>>>In article <4lu8j2$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>>>	But I do.

>>>In that case, Mr. Giwer is merely intellectually dishonest!

>>	Scholarship are those academic endevours which do not require
>>analytic thought.  History, art and literature are no different
>>in that regard.  

>>	Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.  

>Actually, Mr. Giwer, my comment stands.  The term "scholarship"
>is used broadly in university settings to describe the process
>of research in its entirety, from the conception of a research
>problem, through the collection of information (historical
>documents, experimentation, archaeological site survey or
>excavation, as just a couple of examples), the *analysis* of
>the resulting data, and its interpretation.

>And if you think archaeologists don't debate, at times very
>heatedly, the significance of what they "look at" and its
>broader interpretative meaning, you're merely blowing more
>hot air.  I'd be happy to provide you with some references
>about "scholarly debates" in archaeology if you are interested.

	Were you to compare the archaeolgist debates to the "the drawings
prove it true even though they don't say it" about the morgues
you might not be able to stop laughing at yourself.  

	Were you to seriously look at the "if you don't believe it you
are an anti-semitic neo-nazi" as one side of the "debate" you
would not be posting what you are posting.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:26:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4mcg56$3pq@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References: <199604201924.MAA05124@rio.com> <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>  <4m9gg3$317@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <2MAY199616213225@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m9gg3$317@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4m0r6a$pc5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>In article <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>> The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made 
>>>>>> publically available is  actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a 
>>>>>> gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber. 
>>>> 
>>>>>Mr. Raven, if "Baracke X," the gas chamber and crematorium that was built
>>>>>in 1942, was a delousing facility, why then was the gas chamber
>>>>>camouflaged as shower room? 
>>>> 
>>>>	Upon what basis do you say camouflaged?  That copper pipes were
>>>>missing?
>>>> 
>>>>>> Your account is typical of many GIs who heard rumors of how terrible the 
>>>>>> Germans were, and upon returning home claimed to be eyewitnesses to all kinds 
>>>>>> of things that simply were not there.
>>>> 
>>>>>And your infantile denial, Mr. Raven, is typical of the Nazi apologia so
>>>>>often demonstrated by Holocaust deniers. 
>>>> 
>>>>	So you agree with Ferree that he did in fact participate in the
>>>>liberation of a camp that did in fact have a gas chamber?
>>>> 
>>>>	You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while just
>>>>the other day someone said there was never any such claim.
>> 
>>>    That would have been me.  It looks like I was in error.
>>>    I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
>>>    while the camps within Germany proper were work camps.  I did not
>>>    realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps.  I
>>>    stand corrected.  Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.
>> 
>>	It is always my pleasure to do so but I must ask you, why would
>>you only accept without question or verification when they make
>>matters worse than what you previously believed?  Why are you not
>>skeptical of this claim that is new to you?  

>    I have not done what you accuse me of doing.  There is no information
>    from my post just above to lead a reasonable person (with adequate
>    reading comprehension) to draw such a conlusion.

>    I did not state above why I came to realize that limited gassing took
>    place within the Altreich work camps.  If you ask me, rather than
>    simply assuming why, I will provide you with an answer.


	Feeble but an adequate enough denial that your fellow holohuggers
will support you.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 34411 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:53:17 GMT
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>My question:
>>>>>How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the
>>>>>first place? Why put heros in ghettos?

>>>Giwers stupid non-answer:
>>>>	What do those questions have to do with this being the official
>>>>Nazi policy.  This is what was offered to me as proof of gassing.
>>>>It clearly documents something quite different from that.  It is
>>>>the highest level documentation that has surfaced on the subject
>>>>of official Nazi policy.  

>>>Answering questions on tests must have been hard for you, Mr. Giwer.

>>	When studying official Nazi policy I would never expect to be
>>asked a question on demographics which, given the lack of
>>censuses from the period, would be impossible to answer.

>Clue: Read(HaHa!) Sarah Gordon's book on the final solution. Within
>that book you will find demographics. You will find that Jews were
>about 1% of the total population in Germany. 

	Instead of all of this crap why did not simply post the 1942 and
1943 census figures in support of your claim?  

You will find that they
>paid the majority of the taxes despite their 1%. You will find that
>they were (it's really hard to recall and the book isn't by my side,
>but if you want to take issue  I'll look up the actual passages) 12%
>of the Landstag. They over represented their population in field of
>the arts. You also forget that the Nazis labeled people. In order to
>get state job one had to prove that Grandparents were not Jewish. The
>Loesener definition allowed things tighten up in the labeling of
>people. The information is out there, you just haven't bothered to
>look at it.

>My question still stands and you haven't bothered to answer it:

>*How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the
>first place? Why put heros in ghettos?*

	Tell me.  You obviously can post the 1942 and 1943 numbers else
you would not be pretending to make a point where you could not
without that ability.  And of course your numbers will include
the places they were moved to in to 1943 count and all the rest
to verify your implication.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 04:04:16 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m7592$c2s@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>> 
>>	The "academic" claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>>dropping a quarter for verification.  My experience in these
>>public exchanges started in 1980.  My experience is also that the
>>grander the claim the less likely to be true.  

>    Exactly.  And as your claims about the "science" of the Holocaust are
>    certainly grand in that they conflict what every Historian in the world
>    accepts to be true, your claims are "less likely to be true."  And at
>    the very least require extraordinary effort on your part to prove them
>    true.  That is, the burden of proof is most certainly on you.

	What would a historian know about science?  Certainly no more
than you and yet you believe you are capable of judging for
yourself.  

>>	Credentials are never to be taken as true as given.  Were I to
>>dredge up old memories I could give a long list.  But in this
>>case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates.  Department
>>members are likely the same.  (A department member sig even
>>vanished when I mentioned that point.)   Note the near complete
>>lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>>the internet.

>    What you "were to dredge up" carries no weight.  Do you have any
>    specific charges to level here?  I thought not.  

	A question is not a charge.

But just to save you
>    the quarter, here is what you will find about me if you check the
>    University of Arizona (my alma mater) on-line card catalog under my
>    name:

>    CALL #     Micro fiche E9791 1995 86
>    AUTHOR     Mittleman, Daniel David, 1958-
>    TITLE      Architectural programming toolbox : using group support
>               systems technology to increase the effectiveness of user
>               participation in architectural programming (PHD Dissertation)
>    PUBLISHER  Tucson, Arizona : University of Arizona, 1995.

>    I suspect that Dr. Keren's, and Judge Edeiken's credentials are also
>    available on-line.

>    All in all, you are making vague charges with no evidence to back them
>    up.  So, basically, what we have here is more Giwer hot air.  And
>    nothing more.

>    I should add here that I have spent four years posting in
>    alt.revisionism without ever discussing my background or credentials. 
>    In general, I am not too impressed by people's credentials.  What I
>    find much more important is the manner in which people present and
>    defend their arguments.  I am a bit uncomfortable about posting this
>    information about me, but I feel that Giwer's assertions merit a
>    response.

	And I would not ordinarily do so either.  Yet there were posts
made by others.  The first group were claiming I did not know
anything about science and the second group pointing to others as
authorities because of credentials.  As such matters were
introduced by others they are certainly fair game for me to
discuss.  

>>	Note here we have identification without what one would basically
>>expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>>Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>>those claiming the credentials.  One has to accept that
>>accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>>reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>>fact available through this medium.  

>    I suspect that a careful analysis of the post here over time will
>    demonstrate that the academics are careful to provide detailed
>    citations when appropriate.  I suspect that a careful analysis of
>    previous posts between the academics and you will indicate that the
>    academics began by carefully citing sources and found that you showed
>    no interest or skill in actively discussing the key points in those
>    sources LET ALONE READING ANY OF THEM.  I suspect that interviews with
>    all of the academics regularly posting here would reveal that none of
>    them has any respect for you at all and considers that you, at this
>    point in time, merit nothing more than ridicule.   

	But in this case we have people in computer science claiming to
know science.  

	And you will note that not only do I read most all of what is
posted here in support of the claims I also comment upon them
when they contain conflicting details, either with physical law
or other such posts.  Thus it is unclear why you would make the
claim that I do not read what is posted here.  

	And as for your academics posting here, which are declared
specialists upon the holocaust?  A truly multidisciplinary
approach would certainly consider all inputs as equal rather than
ridiculing that which they are unprepared to understand.

>    Case in point: why should anyone (let alone a scholar) try to debate
>    Goldhagen's thesis with you when you:

>    1. HAVEN'T EVEN READ THE BOOK
>    2. Misrepresent what is put in front of you in this conference
>    3. Focus in on miniscule unimportant points from the book and refuse to
>       drop them even when it is demonstrated you are wrong.

	I have commented upon what was posted here.  Any misreprestation
that you see is you not liking the consequences of what was
posted. According to what was posted here about the book the
"miniscule" point has been blaiming every German for the actions
of the SS.  

	You folks have cherished myths that exist independent of each
other and you will not face the consequences of those myths or of
comparing those myths to each other.  Why you have those
problems, I have no idea.

>>	But the few references to the FAQs find them asking more
>>questions than they are answering.  The talk.origins FAQs at
>>least has dozens of answers to the creationists and the flood
>>lovers and take as little guff from those who have no
>>comprehension of physical law.  

>    The Nizker FAQ does essentially the same thing.  Have you read it?

	Several of them.   And, as you know, I have posted some of the
conflicting truths and false to physical fact and law in them.
Are you saying you have not read what I have posted?  Are you
saying you have not read my many references within other messages
to the conflicts in the Nizkor FAQs as related to the point I am
addressing?  

	Why are you either a) making that claim or b) not reading what I
post here before you form an opinion?

>>	For example the t.o FAQs will provide dozens of examples of
>>transitional species in answer to the claim there are no
>>transitional species.  The holocaust FAQS are silent [on] dozens of
>>examples of death from CO in 15-30 minutes as well as silent on
>>dozens of examples of cremation times and all the rest.

>    As I look up the 66 Questions and Responses at Nizkor, I find in the
>    middle of them the questions on Zyklon-B:

	Back up and read.  The subject is CO.

>      "27.What kind of gas was used by the Nazis in concentration camps? 

>      28.For what purpose was, and is, this gas manufactured? 

>      29.Why did they use this instead of a gas more suitable for mass
>      extermination? 

>      30.How long does it take to ventilate fully an area fumigated by
>      Zyklon-B? 

>      31.Auschwitz commandant Hoss said that his men would enter the gas
>      chamber ten minutes after the Jews had died and remove them. How do
>      you explain this? 

>      32.Hoss said in his confession that his men would smoke cigarettes as
>      they pulled the dead Jews out of the gas chambers ten minutes after
>      gassing. Isn't Zyklon-B explosive?" 

>    And of course the answers to these questions are posted as well.  You
>    are right that there are no CO questions and answers, apparently
>    because the IHR had not raised this point.  Possibly the Nizkor
>    volunteers will assemble answers regarding CO (if they perceive it is
>    more than one lunatic who is asserting the matter is of importance.)

	Why would ONLY the interest of the IHR provoke such effort?  That
indicates it has chosen the IHR as its enemy and acts only in
response to what they do.  I thought the purpose was an extensive
documentation of event and available material despite its use of
the near worthless REGEX for searching.  

	But as another example, you had to throw in the "lunatic" yet the
times I gave are the shortest and longest that have been posted
here from "eyewitness" testimony.  They they must be the lunatics
you are referring to.  And yet those lunatics are the basis for
the stories.

>>	It is barely a fair comparison to equate holohuggers with
>>creationists.  At least the creationists have invented their own
>>fabulous sciences to support their claims.  The holohuggers have
>>not even bothered to create their own fabulous science as an
>>underpinning for their claims.

>    It is not necessary to.  Real science works just fine.

	Do to your ignorance of the subject, you are unaware that it does
not.  
	

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34413 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:50:54 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:

>: >An effort to lose me my job, perhaps?

>: 	Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor.  Who was it who
>: said, Jews never forget?  

>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  

>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.

	If your news feed is failing complain to your provider.

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34427 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:09:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <4lv624$b2s@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>           mgiwer@ix.netcom.com "Matt Giwer" writes:
>  That was also when the serious debunking
>> >>started lead by Paul Klass.  

>The name is Philip J. Klass; his books are a mine of information; he shoots down
>all the loonies who claim to have been abducted by aliens and all the people 
>who claim there was a government cover-up.

	I always get his first name confused.  I think I first came
across him as a columnist in the trade mag Electronics Design
talking about why seen over power stations.  That was between the
days of people being given free rides and abductions. 
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34428 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:11:47 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer  wrote:

>[To jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt)]

>In typical Giwerian fashion, he ignored Mr. Litt's response,
>and posted:

># When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
># on you parents, get back to me.  In the mean time, get back to
># your books to help your GPA.  You are going to need it in the
># real world.

>Anyone ever note that this has become Giwer's more-or-less
>standard reply?

>That old inferiority complex is really kicking.

	To whom?  People with majors only a touch above basket weaving?  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34429 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The real holocaust and the holocaust of faith
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:11:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>Alexander Baron  wrote:


>>>>Hey Dan, 

>>>>Chuckee is a great fan of yours, and a devout believer in the gassings. And
>>>>Jesus.

>>>> Heck, if you can believe that a man raised the dead, rose from the 
>>>>dead himself, walked on the water, turned water into wine, duelled with the 
>>>>Devil in the desert AND was born of a virgin, well Dan, mass gassings aren't
>>>>that much of a leap of faith, are they?

>>>This is the Jesus of faith and not the historical Jesus, btw.

>>	And there is the historical holocaust and the holocaust of faith.

>>The real holocaust is borne of truth and death and destruction of
>>millions of people.  The holocaust of faith is borne by the many
>>more millions who were born after it who continue the true faith
>>based upon war propaganda 

>These examples of War propaganda are?(fill in the blanks):


>>	It is time that those who have given up their faith in their god
>>give up their faith in their holocaust.

>What of the Historical Holocaust? Isn't that real? Where is there
>faith in reality? 

	Which historic holocaust?   The work camps in the pre-antibiotic
era where the life span was shorter than the the seven year life
span in the post-antibiotic era of the gulags or the one where
gassing is required to achieve a lesser result?
	
>People have faith that God exists or that Jesus was the Son of God.
>This is faith. Hope. I can't seem to put together a "faith" for the
>holocaust. What is this faith?

	This has nothing to do with fact and everything to do with
superstition.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Psychic Flash Alert!
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:21:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4m5pu0$ijc@access5.digex.net>,
>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>>In article <4m1o65$o0n@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	You mean you know the correct name of a company you have
>>>previously stated you know nothing about?  Not surprising for a
>>>person who can accurately predict the future.
>>>
>>>	You are very stupid.  You fall for even the most trivial tricks.
>>
>>    My hat's off to Mr. Giwer.  He successfully tricked Mr. McFee into
>>using the very same company name that Mr. Giwer had himself used in the
>>post to which Mr. McFee responded.  I am truly at a loss for words to
>>describe how impressive I find this display of cunning.
>>
>>    I have no idea why Mr. Giwer thinks this is a significant
>>accomplishment, or what it proves beyond the fact that Mr. McFee can
>>accurately read, understand, and repeat text that Mr. Giwer has written
>>(which is certainly more than Mr. Giwer is capable of).  But it obviously
>>has some profound meaning to Mr. Giwer.  Perhaps someday he might care to
>>share it with those who are not 163 IQ types. 

>    I have just received a psychic flash.

>    I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
>has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
>"Internet Indirect"  in response to Mr. Giwer's posted statement about
>"Internet Indirect." 

>    You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
>but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn't come
>true. 

	Rather I would suggest that when I posted "indirect" the
respondant post "direct" as my evidence but then you folks are so
used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
to those who care to find the truth.  

	But in doing so you folks are setting lines of battle.  May the
best man beat the lot of you liars.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:22:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


># As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
># Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
># countries in the middle east. 

>What about the Soviet Tupolev T-16 bomber?

>Egypt and Iraq had them.

>Rest assured, folks: no matter what he's talking about, Giwer
>will make a fool of himself.

>Note the pigheaded arrogance: "if you had any knowledge...".

	And the source of your information that the T-16 is a heavy
bomber in addition to the source of your information as to the
countries that have them?  And while you are reading Janes, look
up the bomb loadout configurations it can carry.  You are going
to have to learn this stuff some day.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34434 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the gang of six
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:33:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>## I'm talking about the Wetzel-Lohse letter.

>># And I am talking about what I was given as evidence.

>>It was given to you as evidence. 

>>## No. Mass murder of the Jews was the offical policy. The Wannsee
>>## Protocol does clearly state that the Jews "fit for work"
>>## will be murdered. You do not deny this.

>># Would you care to quote the lines that say that?

>>We've been through this, have we not? 

>>Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference, January 20
>>1942, regarding the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question"
>>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 210-216]
>>---------------------------------------------------------------

>>[...]

>>Under proper direction the Jews should now in the course of the
>>Final Solution be brought to the East in a suitable way for use 
>>as labor. In big labor gangs, with separation of the sexes, the
>>Jews capable of work are brought to these areas and employed in
>>road building, in which task undoubtedly a great part will fall
>>out through natural diminution.

>There it is for Giwer to ignore. Gee, Dan, what does "Final Solution"
>mean and why the word *Final*? Why should a great part fall out
>through natural diminution?

	For the same reason the life expectancy in the gulags was seven
years.

>Why just Jews? What's all this concern over rounding up Jews?

>Doesn't seem stupid to kill the labor force off through work? Why
>would they have to die because of work? Won't they be fed properly and
>housed properly enough to suit the human condition?

	Such brilliance.  "Why would they die off from work?"  A man who
has never heard of the gulags.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An SS Diary entry
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:22:54 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> 
>## A madman shot sixteen children to death. Some were wounded.
>## One of them, a five-year-old by the name of Ryan Cori if I
>## recall correctly, survived two bullets that passed through
>## his chest.
> 
># And you are saying he had three bullets in the head at 
># the same time?  
> 
>No. I'm saying that some of the SS-men either missed their
>targets, or didn't fire exactly the amount of bullets
>that was specified. They may have fired, saw the victim
>fall, and stopped firing. That 2 out of 23 survived the
>initial salvos isn't that surprising.

	That is not the description given.  

	Missed at any distance that would have prevented running away?
How?

	The "exact amount" of bullets was one per person firing.  

	But even more to the point, the description of surviving for some
time, apparently disturbing to the narrator, doesn't mention a
simple additional bullet to finish them off.  The way the story
reads is as though there were orders against more than six shots.






-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:26:28 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>In article <4lmrnn$dhm@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> >>    I agree that Chuck's postings are threats and wish he would stop.  Just
>>>> >>    because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>>>> >>    reason to intimate physical threats.  There is no positive outcome that
>>>> >>    can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.
>>>> 
>>>> >I agree, Chuck get excited. The "Al Gentile" showed up on compuserve
>>>> >in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>>>> >McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. "Al Gentile" is just
>>>> >another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.
>>>> 
>>>>         Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous?  You people
>>>> will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.
>>>> 

>>>Its the "Avenue of the Righteous," Giwer. You know, where Oskar Schindler
>>>planted his tree? I'm sure once somebody contacts Yad Vashem and ask if
>>>this alleged Al Gentile was indeed declared a Righteous Gentile, we can
>>>settle the issue. 

>>	Thank you for the opportunity.  You are aware Schindler's wife is
>>still alive?

>>	You are aware that in early April of this year she denounced the
>>movie as a total fabrication of her deceased husband's motives?
>>That he was only interested in the money?  (As reported on the
>>ABC-TV news of course.  Of course I am only repeating what was
>>reported and there is no particular reason to believe the TV
>>news.)  

>>	When his Oskar Schindler's tree going to be "ausrotten"ed?

>>	But of course that would ruin one more myth so it will never
>>happen.   

>Hey, Giwer! Hello! Hello! What does the above have to do with the Al
>Gentile claim? LOL!

	As you will notice you have offered to conduct the verification
so at this time we are simply awaiting the response.  I was sort
of suggesting that while you are in contact he find out when they
are going to get rid of his tree.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34437 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Superheroes defending the truth
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:35:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4lj9dj$74a@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4lsqa5$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <27APR199613183072@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4lvc13$2g1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m8pm8$hfk@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4lvc13$2g1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	snipped of course where it would detract from your false
>	pretention

>The nerve!  Everyone knows that only Mr. Giwer has the right to snip
>out text that undermines his arguments!

	You folks should get together on whether you are going to accuse
me of editing too much or too little.  You would look less silly.

>	6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>--Matt "I said it, but I will blame you for it!" Giwer


>	What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>All truth needs protection from the Giwers of the world.

	We do have quite a conspiracy going.  Our next target is the Cold
War.  In five more years, no one will believe it ever happened.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Message for Hitler's birthday - zgram960420
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:50:22 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:865 alt.revisionism:34442 alt.politics.nationalism.white:18965

fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>>>In article <4lqaco$b0h@news.ios.com>,
>>>>>Dave (abh@npl.com) whines:

>>>>>	Incase you missed it. The Soviets killed far more people than
>>>>>	did the Nazis.

>>>>>In case Mr. Dave missed it, no one disputes the murders of the Soviets!

>>>>	If the claim were that it had been done by many different and
>>>>mutually conflicting means of execution and it were a matter of
>>>>public debate who knows what might happen?  On the other hand
>>>>Russia is releasing the records about itself.

>>>Neat.

>>>Just like Germany did 51 years ago.

>>	You mean like steaming, electrocution and suffocation?  All of
>>those were methods of mass execution only 51 years ago.  Why
>>would you question any of them now?  

>No, idiot. you missed the point.

>Germany released the records on the extermination programs at the end
>of the war.  They played a major part in the Nurnberg trials.

	Released is hardly the word for it and there were charges of
steaming during the trials.  Yet like today the documents have to
be looked with the presumption of the conclusion to determine
what they mean.  

	The "witnesses" provide the conclusion and then the documents
have "this has to be what they were talking about, look how
cleverly they avoided using the damning words."



---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 09:00:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: 	I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>: it.  Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>: comedy of the absurd?  

>Because you apparently "did it" for twenty years without having the
>slightest idea of how "it" is done?  I dunno, just a guess...

	How would a college kid like you know?

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34450 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, a labor of hate
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:22:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>	What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>I responded:

>	What kind of slime attacks the truth?

>To which Mr. Giwer brings all of his brilliance to bear:

>	What would the "truth" care? 

>The truth does not have feelings, so it does not care, but those of
>us who cherish the truth do care.  Having failed miserably to ram his
>lies down our throats, Mr. Giwer is reduced to whining that the truth
>itself is not so harsh as its defenders!

	Unless one is a member of the League of Superhero Defendeners of
the Truth, why would one care?  

	You superheroes have such an image of your selves with an equally
strange idea of the cherishing when you will deliberately deceive
(burning bones and HCN in coke fire gases) when it suits your
purpose.  There is no commitment to the truth only hypocrisy.

>	6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>--Matt "I siad it, but I will blame you for it!" Giwer


>	What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>Any truth that Mr. Giwer can distort.

	Reading murder where there is no murder in the Wannsee protocol
is distortion.  Claiming the orginal plans prior to the document
was other than emigration is distortion.  Starting with a
conclusion is a distortion.  	


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:34:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34452 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:45:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4m15sp$2ds@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:20:19 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>wrote:

>>>[snip]

>>>>	There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>>>>holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.  

>>>It's bigotry if you know better, ignorance if you don't.

>>	It may be foolish, it may be dumb, but there is no bigotry in the
>>statement.  You many consult any dictionary in whose list of
>>defintions you find one you can twist into supporting your absurd
>>claim.

>    No twisting required.

>big.ot.ry \'big-*-tre-\ n : the state of mind of a bigot; also : behavior
>   or beliefs ensuing from such a state of mind

>big.ot \'big-*t\ n [MF, hypocrite, bigot] : one obstinately or
>intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion

>Source:
>   Linkname: Webster's Dictionary
>        URL: http://civil.colorado.edu/htbin/dictionary?bigot


>    You have been apprised of the letter from Bischoff to Kammler speaking
>of a "Vergasungskeller."  You have been apprised of the orders for a
>gas-tight door.  (You will have to take up the issue of why it said
>"Gasdichtetur" rather than "Luftdichtetur" with the SS.)  You have been
>apprised of the fact that evidence of cyanide was found in the Kremas by
>both the later Polish chemists, and (though you've probably forgotten it)
>was also mentioned as having been found on plates from the ventilation
>system shortly after the war.  You have been apprised of witnesses - both
>prisoners and SS men - who testified to gassing.  And that is just what
>has been posted here.

	Of the above only the traces of cyanide would be considered
evidence as has been noted.  Killing rats in a morgue is
certainly a desirable thing.  And on the other hand there are
contrary evidences such as a steel door on one way out and wooden
partitions (whatever those might be in detail) at another exit.
What you have is far from conclusive.

>    Therefore you are obstinately devoted to your own belief or opinion
>that there is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>Holocaust.  You may think there is not enough evidence to convince you,
>but that is not the same thing as no evidence.  (If you wish to assert
>that the evidence is forged, the burden of proof would be on you.)

	There is not enough evidence to pass the "beyond a reasonable
doubt" criteria for capital cases.  

>    I expect your problem is that you thought that "bigot" = "racist." 
>But that's simply due to the paupacy of your skill in English.  You really
>ought to learn the language sometime.

	Rather it is clear that obstinate devotion to an opinion of
gassing would also satisfy that definition.  Belief in the
absense of knowledge and believe contrary to physical law. 



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:35:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34453 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas bag
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:58:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4mbp4i$r9c@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4m2siq$m1r@access4.digex.net> <4m480k$b3t@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m8gad$1ub@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>: >In article <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>: >Matt Giwer  wrote:
>: >>	We know from eyewitness testimony

>: >    "We?"  Do you have a friend in your pocket?  I don't know some of the
>: >things claimed below, especially as no evidence is cited.

>: 	The "we" is the gang of six, the amen corner and all of Nizkor.  

>As compared to the gang of Nazis, the Nazi amen corner, and Ernst Zundl's 
>followers?  

	Whoever you may be referring to is not participating here.

Careful about those group generalizations there, Mr. Giwer -- 
>you throw a hissy fit any time someone makes one about you.

	I merely point out they are knowingly lying.  

>: >>	1)	Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20
>: >>minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment.

>: >	1a) This is one witness's estimate and much lower than most other
>: >witnesses' figures.  And it is an _estimate_, which is something to regard
>: >as less exact and accurate than observations of events, like seeing
>: >someone put on a gas mask and pour something down a hole, or seeing a
>: >large number of people enter an empty room alive and seeing that same room
>: >with a large number of dead bodies in it a short time later.

>: 	You mean that seeing a gas mask put on is a more reliable marker
>: than hearing an engine from a tank turn on?  In what manner?  

>What's amazing is that every time you start a sentence with a qualifier, 
>it always turns out that the exact opposite is true.  When you say "we 
>can all agree" it's adead giveaway that noone agrees with you; here you 
>say "You mean" when of course it's clear that's NOT what he meant.  You 
>always see "logical conclusions" that the rest of the world doesn't think 
>logical.

	You still did not answer the question.

>: 	 But if you say the estimate was too short by a significant
>: multiple then we have the problem of just how quickly how many
>: people could have been executed from other stories.  

>"Executed from other stories."  I belive that the allegation is that they 
>were exectuted from bullets and gas, not stories, although I hear TOm 
>moran is trying to change that.

	Now of course even you could see the plain meaning of what I said
and you will not address the problem with mutually conflicting
truths.

>: 	Would you rather keep the 15-20 minutes or would you rather keep
>: the murder rate?

>: 	You have a very simple choice to make but you can not have both
>: of them at the same time.

>So you say......

	Very clever but again, a refusal to address both stories at the
same time, insisting that they must be true separately.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:35:01 PDT 1996
Article: 34454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:03:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4m7qpp$epu@hackberry.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
>Curtis) wrote:

>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>> >>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post. 
>> 
>> >       I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>> >Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>> >it a gas chamber?
>> 
>> If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>> by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>I've seen both photos, and the I posted looks nearly the same, accepting
>that it was not in color of course. The one that _was_ in color clealrly
>show blue stains on the wall that the door is in. And yes, the caption to
>it commented on the stains being a by-product of HCN gas. (i.e. "Prussian
>Blue?") 

	One will hope you have the courtesy to post the color picture and
then explain the iron wall.  You will remember there was a long
holohugger post about the third valence state of iron to get this
color.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:35:02 PDT 1996
Article: 34455 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:05:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <4m3js7$pl@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>> 
>>> >Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>> >Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post. 
>>> 
>>>         I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>> Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>> it a gas chamber?

>>Perhaps if you weren't such a prick, yes. As it stands, you are more than
>>welcome to check the book yourself. You asked for a photo and I posted it.
>>Now, that you have been given the photo you bleated for, you find fault
>>with it? How typical.
>Mark,

>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>There must be more than one picture. I have a book that has the same
>shot, but the door is closed.

	And you also will remember the long holohugger post saying that
this color could only occur as the third valence state of iron
meaning the wall was made of iron.  That is quite an interesting
construction technique.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 08:35:03 PDT 1996
Article: 34456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That's Incredible!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:15:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>	According to ABC news Schlinder's wife denounced him as a profit
>>hungry no good and the movie as completely false to what she knew
>>of her husband.  Of course, your mileage is guaranteed to vary.

>No, actually, from what I've read she was about right. The amazing
>thing is that such a thoroughly unadmirable, lazy, good-for-nothing
>philandering profiteer managed to draw a moral line at participation
>in genocide. If as morally degenerate a specimen as Oskar Schindler 
>was able to do this, why couldn't others?

>This, of course, is part of what Goldhagen's book tries to explain.

	It appears you disagree with his wife.  But then I did warn you
on your mileage.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 11:20:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:36:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>>	As I said, you really don't understand scholarship.

>>>In article <4lu8j2$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>>>	But I do.

>>>In that case, Mr. Giwer is merely intellectually dishonest!

>>	Scholarship are those academic endevours which do not require
>>analytic thought.  History, art and literature are no different
>>in that regard.  

>>	Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.  

>LOL! That why historians work at Colonial Williamsburg! That's why I
>visited Fall River for a paper on Lizzie Borden. That's why I visited
>the area of the Pequot War and visited the various museums in the New
>England area in my study of that war. That's why I collect original
>source documents or facsimilie reprints of those documents for use in
>the course of my work. You sir, Are the one who doesn't look anywhere
>beyond his own nose.

	You visited and collected documents.  Rather what I said.  Now
where was the analytic thought?  At least we have someone
claiming to be a practicing historian as opposed to the rest.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 11:20:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34473 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:57:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4mc7d4$n4k@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:


>>	It also means the entire Wannsee conference was absolutely
>>unnecessary as it "changed" a policy of extermination in the East
>>to a policy of extermination in the east, i.e. no change at all.
>>Perhaps it was just one of the excuses for a "professional
>>conference" at a tourist attraction.  It is certainly not unknown
>>but today we would correctly describe Wannsee as a boondoggle.

>I realize that posting to you is like posting to a huge rock for it
>doesn't move and it doesn't take in anything and it has no feelings.
>But the purpose, as you have been told before, was to bring together
>disparate elements of the Nazi regime to coordinate the murder in a
>more systematic way.

	As you know from reading it so many times, the original policy
PRIOR to the conference was emigration to the east.  You also
know there is no evidence in the document of your claim to
coordination as there is no reference to disparate policies prior
to the conference.  

	Whatever I might have been told was a obvious confabulation that
is contrary to the contents of the document as are your claims of
coordination which are not contained in the document.  

	Now if you willing to post further documentation of the purpose
of the conference then I am willing to read it.  Until you do, it
is only your fantasy that invents what you are claiming.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 12:25:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34483 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:22:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4mc8rg$obd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4lsq94$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>>	In other words, McVay is being used. No problem for McVay. He
>>>>can be bought. A few bucks in his pocket alleviates any ethical
>>>>reservations.

>>>I am afraid that this is an argument for people who have run out of
>>>arguments. Greg Raven draws a paycheck from the IHR, and Ernst Zuendel
>>>makes a sustantial income from selling Holocaust denial materials
>>>abroad. Are they also ethically compromised by the simple fact that
>>>they are paid to do what they do?

>>	And of course the gang of six does it all out of the goodness of their
>>heart.

>A concept that is obviously unknown to the Giwer-troll.

	You fail to notice that we are talking 25 megs per person worth
of semi-organized material.  But we still have four silent
members of the Gang of Six who are responsible for that much
material.  Of course if they have no life outside of Nizkor it is
understandable.  As I have said, I know what it takes to put
together a large website as mine is a bit over 4 megs.   

	Another point of course is the "tax reciepts" issued for
contributions.  The cost of one's own server on an established
provider is about $300 a month.  It is either a very poor fund
raising activity or a lot of extra money to be spread around.
For any reasonable size congregation it is 25 cents a week per
family.  

	So they put a gig drive on their own server.  That is another
$250 (US of course) actually less but no need to quibble.  It is
a one time cost.  

	But if in the process this Nizkor dropped the $50,000 or so for a
private connection then we ask after their sale of connections to
others are an indication of their for profit status.   

	The financing questions are too obvious to be ignored in this
matter.

	And that does not begin to address the issue that entire Nizkor
site is a religious activity.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 12:25:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That's Incredible!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 03:05:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <4mbt03$1jv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
> 
># The doctor can speak for himself and you can not read his 
># mind so please stop this speaking for your fellow holohuggers.  
># The evidence in favor of the "Dr." appelation is not in comport 
># with what would be expected of a person with such credentials.
> 
>What's the matter, Giwer old boy? You want a postscript file
>of my doctoral thesis? Shoot, maybe I shouldn't take the risk?
>After all, the 163-IQ man might find an error in it (smirk).

	You have my email address if you want to take a shot at it.  But
first convert it to plain ascii as postscript is of no value to
me.  
 
>Go project your inferiority complex on someone else.

	To who?
 
># The witnesses also testified to electrocution, suffocation and
># steaming.  
> 
>Name one SS-man from Treblinka, Belzec, or Sobibor, who
>testified to murder by such methods.

	I was thinking of victim statements.  
 
>To the best of my knowledge, no such person exists. All testified
>that the victims were murdered by poison gas.
 
>The statement that "claims of steaming, electrocution etc are
>supported by eyewitness testimony just as claims of gassing
>are", is a blatant lie. But what can one expect from you? After
>you lied so much on this newsgroup, it's no surprise.

	You must have missed the post here of victim statements.  I am
certain Nizkor hasn't lost it.
 
>Re the steaming etc stories:
 
>These were misinterpretations of members of the Polish underground
>who were spying on the camps from a distance. They realized that
>numerous people were being murdered there, but couldn't see what
>was happening inside the gas chambers; they did see the corpses
>taken out and buried. 
 
>For instance, seeing the door of the gas chamber open and a cloud
>of the engin's exhaust coming out, someone spying on the camp from
>a distance could easily mistake the killing procedure to
>"steaming". The same mistake could be made by someone who was
>in the camp (and escaped), but who never saw the gas chambers from
>close range and never spoke to the sonderkommando.

	How does one confuse white condensed steam (clouds at best) with
with blue-black exhaust?  Whereas the concentration of steam
could be increased to become visible to some extent, the
concentration of exhaust could not be increased without a
pressurized building and then doubling he concentration would
double the pressure requiring a very strong metal structure and
of course shutting off the engine from the backpressure.  
 
	Thus in fact the concentration of exhaust could never have become
any greater than that which comes out of an engine itself.  

	And certainly they would at some point have noticed quantities of
fuel being pumped into the tanks and noticed the coincident sound
of the engines.  

	Clearly your explanation is not reasonable yet you will not take
kindly to even a question of this hypothetical explanation.

>You'll always have such erroneous reports, more so in a situation
>like this, in which someone had to make a conjecture about a
>technical fact, which concerned a technical operation he knew
>nothing about.

	Lets get on to the electrocution.  Did they see flashing lights
inside at night?  
 
>Descriptions of every historical event always contain a certain
>amount of inaccuracies and rumors. It's like the insane claims
>of "puddles of human flesh" and "people glowing orange and
>vanishing" during the firebombing of Dresden. Holocaust deniers
>would obviously use this to claim Dresden was never bombed, but 
>they don't, because they're interested only in denying Nazi 
>atrocities.

	And you fail to see where similar claims about gassing are as
insane also simply because you are familiar with them.  You even
go so far as to claim physical law is a lie when it detracts from
your beliefs.  






-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 12:25:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.fyionline.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Psychic Flash Alert!
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:51:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
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References: <4lh3c3$i9v@wi.combase.com> <4m16c5$1s2a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4m1o65$o0n@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m5pu0$ijc@access5.digex.net> <4m8ss0$cgr@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02  4:50:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4m5pu0$ijc@access5.digex.net>,
>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>>In article <4m1o65$o0n@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	You mean you know the correct name of a company you have
>>>previously stated you know nothing about?  Not surprising for a
>>>person who can accurately predict the future.
>>>
>>>	You are very stupid.  You fall for even the most trivial tricks.
>>
>>    My hat's off to Mr. Giwer.  He successfully tricked Mr. McFee into
>>using the very same company name that Mr. Giwer had himself used in the
>>post to which Mr. McFee responded.  I am truly at a loss for words to
>>describe how impressive I find this display of cunning.
>>
>>    I have no idea why Mr. Giwer thinks this is a significant
>>accomplishment, or what it proves beyond the fact that Mr. McFee can
>>accurately read, understand, and repeat text that Mr. Giwer has written
>>(which is certainly more than Mr. Giwer is capable of).  But it obviously
>>has some profound meaning to Mr. Giwer.  Perhaps someday he might care to
>>share it with those who are not 163 IQ types. 

>    I have just received a psychic flash.

>    I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
>has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
>"Internet Indirect"  in response to Mr. Giwer's posted statement about
>"Internet Indirect." 

>    You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
>but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn't come
>true. 

	Rather I would suggest that when I posted "indirect" the
respondant post "direct" as my evidence but then you folks are so
used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
to those who care to find the truth.  

	But in doing so you folks are setting lines of battle.  May the
best man beat the lot of you liars.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 13:31:44 PDT 1996
Article: 34489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:40:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4mc9pi$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >: du> <4l4u1c$1vdo@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> 
>: >:  
>: >: <4l6b7d$bmh@wi.combase.com> 
>: >:  
>: >: <4l9aej$t2i@wi.combase.com> Distribution: 

>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@combase.com) wrote:

>: >: 	Lets see.  There were enthusiastic crowds when Hitler drove through
>: >: the streets after annexation.  Therefore Austrians enthusiastically
>: >: embraced annexation.

>: >: 	There was an enthusiastic crowd in Tampa to greet Clinton on his last
>: >: visit.  Therefore Tampa enthusiastically embraced Clinton.  

>: >: 	It would be an awfully incompetent political party that could not turn
>: >: out an enthusiastic crowd.  

>: >: 	However, I do find it extremely common that people will assume that
>: >: such crowds are spontanious.  When Pres. Eisenhower wanted one he
>: >: would let civilians servants go home early if they showed up as a
>: >: cheering crowd first.  

>: >: 	Of course, that is revisionism.  Austrian crowds were different from
>: >: all other political crowds in the world.  I understand the dogma.

>: >Mr. Giwer is employing Denier Technique #7,218:  Don't actually say 
>: >anything which refutes the point (here, that Austria embraced Hitler 
>: >enthusiastically).  Instead, just point out why the evidence presented 
>: >doesn't meet your personal standards.  Provide no evidence for this, 
>: >either, other than your opinion of what's logical.

>: 	Some day you should publish a complete list of the techniques.
>: It will be interesting to see how agreement with the premise of
>: those crowds being different can constitute denying anything.
>: But let me remark that I find you "standard of proof" rather in
>: line with the common assumption that all crowds are spontaneous. 

>Not even necessary -- I never assumed all crowds were spontaneous, and if 
>you can find anywhere I said that, I'll send you 10 bucks.

	The lack of an explicite statement hardly negates the presumption
in your posts.

>Are crowds evidence of enthusiasm?  I would say yes.  

	Right!  And the usual trick for that was to have the cafes along
the route pouring freely.  It was not invented in Austria.

Do they prove 
>EVERYONE is enthusiastic?  of course not.  But your counter-example is 
>interesting -- if crowds of cheering people lined the streets for 
>Clinton's visit to Tampa, I would say "Tampa greeted Clinton 
>enthusiastically."  

	Then you would be knowingly lying as you would more properly be
saying that in the small part of the streets you saw on camera
that you saw a staged political rally as they all are.  Even
honest journalists would only photograph the action.  

>More to the point, nothing you have said disproves Austria greeting 
>Hitler enthusiastically.  You've given some half-assed, unsupported 
>assertions about Eisenhower, and somehow in your mind that's enough.

	Now I am supposed to prove a negative?  Very creationist of you.

>: >: >> >In fact, he uses the parallel examples of 
>"ordinary 
>: >: >> >citizens'" complicity in other atrocities--in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, 
>: >: >> >Armenia, etc.--as part of his argument that "ordinary Germans" were 
>: >: >> >similarly complicit in the Holocaust.
>: >: >> 
>: >: >> 	I can see it all now, millions of armed Germans hunting them down and
>: >: >> killing them.  When you read it did you not notice the absurdity of
>: >: >> this comparison?

>: >: >Hundreds of thousands, actually--although in Germany, millions stood 
>: >: >silently by and let it happen.  

>: >: 	So you are in the "everyone but the Jews and the homosexuals and the
>: >: slavs and the gypsies etc. knew what was happening" camp.  Very good.
>: >: I will try to remember that.

>: >Ooooh, he's a "Neo-Nizkorite" or whatever it was he called someone.  He's 
>: >keeping a "mental file" -- the difference between him and Nizkor is that 
>: >Nizkor keeps the actual statements, so as to be accurate.

>: 	But to be used selectively and out of context of an exchange with
>: the intent to deceive.

>Nope.  You've got no proof of that, because it didn't happen.  Someday 
>you'll realize that demanding proof of the holocaust while providing no 
>evidence of anything you say makes you look like an *sshole.

	Some day you will learn that a proof of negative is very
creationist.

>: >: Here's the passage from Goldhagen 
>: >: >I was thinking of:

>: >: >"No reason exists to believe that modern, western, even Christian man is 
>: >: >incapable of holding notions which devalue human life, which call for its 
>: >: >extinction, notions held by [other] peoples. . . throughout history. . . . 
>: >: >Who doubts that the Argentine or Chilean murderes of 
>: >: >people who opposed the recent authoritarian regimes thought that their 
>: >: >victims deserved to die?  Who doubts that the Tutsis who slaughtered 
>: >: >Hutus in Burundi or the Hutus who slaughtered Tutsis in Rwanda, that one 
>: >: >Lebanese militia which slaughtered the civilian supporters of another, 
>: >: >that the Serbs who have killed Croats or Bosnian Muslims, did so out of 
>: >: >conviction in the justice of their actions? Why do we not believe the 
>: >: >same for the German perpetrators?" (pp. 14-15).

>: >: >Goldhagen invokes these other examples to point out that those mass 
>: >: >murders were ideologically motivated, and to foreground his examination 
>: >: >of the ideology that led Germans to support the Nazi government's actions 
>: >: >against Jews.  He is particularly critical of the idea that German 
>: >: >soldiers and other participants in the killings of Jewish civilians 
>: >: >needed to be persuaded or compelled to participate.

>: >: 	So by mixing metaphors of actions of governments and of people he is
>: >: able to indicted 50,000,000 people.  It is not a very subtle
>: >: propaganda technique.  I would have expected you to notice it.

>: >Actually, I would have expected that you read the book before you 
>: >pronounce your decision of Goldhagen's methods.  Do you alweays decide 
>: >before seeing any actual facts?

>: 	If facts about the book are not being posted here, what is the
>: point to the discussion?

>Given that minute fragments of a long book have been posted here, I ask 
>again:  Do you always decide before seeing any actual facts?

	I have only commented upon what has been posted here, not upon
the book as a whole.  As you know that is true, what is the point
of your question?

>: >: 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>: >:    What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>: >What kind of idiot summarizes a book's methodolgy without even reading it?

>: 	You need to learn what summarizing methodology means before you
>: start talking about someone doing it.  If you knew what that
>: meant you would know I have not.  If you had been following the
>: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: book does not contain the methodology.	

>The book does not contain "the" methodology?  Interesting accusation.  

	Go back and read.  

If you had been following the
>: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: book does not contain the methodology.	

	Notice "ANOTHER PERSON" in the statement?  Another person made
the accusation, not me.  

>Sometime you will have to explain what "the" methodology is.
>But given that you have not read the book, you have no basis upon which 
>to summarize its methodology.  which makes you a troll just starved for 
>attention.

	When you learn to read what you responding to, get back to me.





-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 13:31:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34492 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:44:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4mca1o$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <317fc715.20101506@news.pacificnet.net> <4lr5he$qql@hackberry.zilker.net> <4m9j39$o87@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <2MAY199619421163@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  1:45:12 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m9j39$o87@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4ls76k$ats@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>	It is obvious the technology mentioned was well within the
>>>>>>capability of the Germans, at that time in history.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>	What with the new Goldhagen book drawing up to 500,000 Germans
>>>>>>into being directly involved, we should suppose the Germans had
>>>>>>inquired about the nation for ideas on the best way to exterminate the
>>>>>>Jews.
>>>> 
>>>>>Nope. Didn't happen. In fact, there was opposition to some of what was
>>>>>going on. Especially so to German citizens. This is why the Nazis were
>>>>>forced to move their killing sites either far underground or out of
>>>>>country. I suggest that the uninformed, such as you, Mr. Moran, ought
>>>>>to read a book called *Nazi Doctors* by Lipton for information about
>>>>>some of this opposition.
>>>> 
>>>>	As the truth has changed from gas chambers all over Germany to
>>>>only outside of Germany just what German citizens would have been
>>>>of concern?  Are you talking about tourists?  What does this
>>>>"underground" mean much less "far underground"?  
>> 
>>>    GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
>>>    when in fact he is just making up lies.  It has never been asserted
>>>    that there were "gas chambers all over Germany."  Giwer may respond to
>>>    this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
>>>    a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true.  he
>>>    won't respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.
>> 
>>	Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
>>Germany?  

>    Here is the exchange (from <4m0r6a$pc5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>). 
>    Giwer said to another poster:

> Matty> You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while
> Matty> just the other day someone said there was never any such claim.

>    I responded:

> Danny> That would have been me.  It looks like I was in error.
> Danny> I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
> Danny> while the camps within Germany proper were work camps.  I did not
> Danny> realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps. I
> Danny> stand corrected.  Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.

	I have never used dimunitives in my quoting system.  What are you
talking about? 
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 19:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 34500 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:40:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4mcdev$qr0@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4m6kq7$1r2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4m7592$c2s@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  2:43:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Wed, 1 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> 
>> 	The "academic" claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>> dropping a quarter for verification.  My experience in these
>> public exchanges started in 1980.  My experience is also that the
>> grander the claim the less likely to be true.  
>> 
>> 	Credentials are never to be taken as true as given.  Were I to
>> dredge up old memories I could give a long list.  But in this
>> case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates.  Department
>> members are likely the same.  (A department member sig even
>> vanished when I mentioned that point.)   Note the near complete
>> lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>> the internet.

>Brilliant deductive powers, Mr. Giwer!  If you want to verify that I am a 
>PhD candidate at the University of Arizona, I invite you to e-mail the 
>Rhetoric and Composition Program secretary, Jonathan Kandell, at 
>jkandell@ccit.arizona.edu (there have been some recent systems upgrades; 
>his address *may* now be jkandell@u.arizona.edu). 

	I will accept you are untrained in analytic thought as that has
been obvious from the first of your posts I have read.  What is
it you expect to gain from this save that you are not so educated
and that your field does not require such an ability?

>And for what it's worth, Keith Morrison has always been upfront about his 
>being an undergraduate--though now that he's finished his B.S. and left 
>the group, he obviously doesn't fall into that category.

	A bunch of college kids as I have said.  Children turned loose on
a network designed for professionals.

>> 	Note here we have identification without what one would basically
>> expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>> Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>> those claiming the credentials.  One has to accept that
>> accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>> reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>> fact available through this medium.  

>Oh, right--like the way we do unacademic stuff like citing titles, 
>authors, page numbers, that sort of unproffessional crap.  You perhaps 
>prefer Tom Moran's method of saying "I read it in an article in the _L.A. 
>Times_ about three years ago"?

	That is called "scholarly."  It requires no analytic thought.
Things must stand on their own regardless of who says them as the
appeal to authority fallacy applies.  

	Some day when you find yourself selling insurance you will regret
not going into a serious field.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 19:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 34505 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:55:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4mcduv$e6v@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4m4h26$jsr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m54d0$ess@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4ma05d$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <2MAY199607390723@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  2:51:59 AM CDT 1996
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4ma05d$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>> 
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>>: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>>>: >someone should explain to Matt "163 IQ, not a point less" Giwer that:
>> 
>>>: >1) The description of Hitler posted refers to the very end of
>>>: >   the war, when he was indeed in a state of collapse. He was
>>>: >   not always like this.
>> 
>>>: >2) Hitler didn't bother himself with the techniques used for
>>>: >   mass murder in the death camps, no more than the president
>>>: >   of the US involved himself in the technical side of building
>>>: >   the A-bomb. 
>> 
>>>: 	Quite the revisionist, aren't you?  What did you do, read the
>>>: galleys of Irving's book?
>> 
>>>GIWER ON THE RUN ALERT:  The GIwer, having been exposed as having made a 
>>>completely asinine assertion about Hitler, can find no answer other than 
>>>to call his opponent a "revisionist."  Anyone who thinks this changes the 
>>>fact that Old Man Giwer got it wrong, raise your hand.
>> 
>>>: >163 IQ points, indeed. Pity he's only using 10 of them...
>> 
>>>: 	How would a genius like you know?
>> 
>>>How?  Because only a moron would assert that Hitler's enfeebled state at 
>>>the end of the war means that Hitlers was unable to act earlier in the war.
>>>That's like saying that because you're a senile old fool now, you must 
>>>have been senile 30 years ago.  Q.E.D.
>> 
>>	When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
>>on you parents, get back to me.  In the mean time, get back to
>>your books to help your GPA.  You are going to need it in the
>>real world.

>    GIWER LAST STRAW ALERT: Giwer has given up all pretense of actually
>    discussing issues and is now simply accusing his discussants of being
>    - shudder the thought - undergraduates.  Mr. Litt, for example, has
>    explained that he has finished Law School and is working on his L.L.M. 
>    Mr. Giwer offers no evidence ot the contrary (and for that matter no
>    evidence regarding the point at hand up above) but continues on making
>    bald ad hominem assertions.

	Gee whiz, I have been found out.  After my ripe old age of 50 has
been made the subject of much BS I point out the college kids who
have still to learn about the real world and a Mr. Litt who has
still not be out of school for one self supporting day is brought
up as a counter example.  

	I am so impressed by these children I think I will shit in my
pants in honor of them.  

	Is this going to go on forever?  Children in college with their
repetative highschool responses?  Just try these ridicule
techniques in your first real job and see how far you are from
being invited to seek your future in the fast food industry.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 19:11:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34507 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:11:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4mcboh$ptl@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  2:14:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>>>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>>>>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post. 

>>>>	I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>>>Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>>>it a gas chamber?

>>>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>>>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>>	It is black and white so there is no evidence of any color.  It
>>is not clear that the walls are made of sheet iron so it is
>>unclear what blue would have formed from.  

>Really? Ooops. I recall it now. I have a color picture of that same
>room and the walls are blue. The caption on the pictures says what I
>said above. I believe the title of the book is _The World Must Know_.

	Get your story straight at least.  The picture shows nothing
indicative of any gassing.  There was a very long holohugger post
here demonstrating quite clearly that blue could only form as the
third valence state of iron.  

	Now post your color picture and the evidence that the walls were
iron and at least you have the first leg to stand on for your
claim.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 19:11:11 PDT 1996
Article: 34515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:25:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4mcg38$3pq@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>> # As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
>> # Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
>> # countries in the middle east. 
>> 
>> What about the Soviet Tupolev T-16 bomber?
>> 
>> Egypt and Iraq had them.
>> 
>> Rest assured, folks: no matter what he's talking about, Giwer
>> will make a fool of himself.
>> 
>> Note the pigheaded arrogance: "if you had any knowledge...".

>Indeed. As if the current crop of Sryian combat aircraft can't carry
>bombs! Or that Syrian battlefield missles couldn't reach Israel! (Syria
>ordered 150 Scud-C missles from Norh Korea in 1991, of which about 50 were
>delivered that year.) 


	College kids do need to learn they are taught nothing new in
college and that there are many other places to learn outside of
college.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 19:11:12 PDT 1996
Article: 34520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:36:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21602 alt.revisionism:34520

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m9v9k$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:
>> 
>>>Secondly, why do you infer Mr. McVay's future or present tax-exempt status
>>>from the fact that he doesn't work for anybody?  Unless you know something
>>>I don't (and I seriously doubt that), this is neither a necessary nor
>>>sufficient condition for tax-exempt status.  But I wouldn't really know,
>>>because I am only familiar with U.S. tax code ... which brings me to my
>>>next point.
>> 
>>	A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status.  It is
>>unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>>involved with secular history.  But if it is religious history
>>that makes Nizkor a religious site.  

>    I know nothing about Canadian tax laws.  If Nizkor were in the US, it
>    would be possible for it to accept tax exempt donations (which is what
>    the original assertion was until the trollers got hold of it) without
>    having any religious association.  I can, for example, offer a donation
>    to Goodwill Industries which has, to my knowledge, no religious
>    affiliation.

>    Mr. McVay has stated he does not receive renumeration from Nizkor. 
>    Given that, what possible tax implications could there be for Nizkor
>    from any other source of income Mr. McVay might have?

	It is unclear that in US law anyone can claim tax exempt status
for a website devoted to the bombing of Pearl Harbor.  If you
know an attorney who can establish this please let me know.  

	Whatever the details of the holocaust might have been it was
clearly a secular event despite religions sponsorship of it.
	
---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May  3 19:11:13 PDT 1996
Article: 34529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:52:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>: >In article <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net>,
>: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:

>: >	Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"?

>: >Yes, it can.

>: 	Enough said.

>For those who might think Giwer has responded, I pose the following 
>question to Mr. Giwer:

>If Mr. Moran says "I think Jews are the scum of the earth" -- is that 
>both true and anti-Semitic?

>Well, let's see:

>(1)It's true -- Li'l TOmmy does think Jews are the scum of the earth.  
>That doesn't make him accurate, but the statement is true.

>(2)Is it anti-Semitic? Well, duh.


	Your IF is a really shitty try.  

	It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

	If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
anti-semitic as including the truth.  

	Yes, it is truly an enemy situation where the speaker of the
truth must be attacked.  

	It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

	It has been a matter of primitive tribalists engaging in their
warfare in an unfortunate example of such tribalism surviving
into the 20th century.

	One would hope civilization would catch up to these tribalists
and they would come into the modern world and learn to forgive
their real and imagined enemies.  Instead they are enjoined to
learn to hate.  And of course we have Nizkor as a religious site.
---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!news.onramp.net!news.mind.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:14:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4mcbu0$ptl@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  2:17:20 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4lvg2g$be6@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4lp9og$fbd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <4lclpd$8tp@wi.combase.com>, 
>>>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>	You continue to fail to post the P Chem equations for HCN with the
>>>>>>constants filled in, Mr. MS Chemist.  Why is that?
>>>>
>>>>>I am assuming Mr. Giwer is referring to me although I am not an "MS
>>>>>Chemist."  What does he think "the P Chem equations for HCN with the
>>>>>constants filled in" means?  Does Mr. Giwer care to see the Schrodinger
>>>>>Equation? Perhaps, he is referring to his ignorance regarding the vapor
>>>>>pressure of HCN?  Perhaps he is referring to the solution to Fick's
>>>>>second law of diffusion?   
>>>>
>>>>	Perhaps you could simply post the equations that support your
>>>>"high vapor pressure" explains everything contention?
>>
>>>    As Mr. Giwer ought to know, the properties of compounds are actually
>>>determined experimentally.
>>
>>>    Therefore I think we can settle this matter quite easily.
>>
>>>    Obviously Mr. Giwer believes that since the boiling point of HCN is 26
>>>degrees, it will evaporate very, very slowly at low temperatures. 
>>>Therefore I am sure he will have no qualms about volunteering to spend
>>>five minutes without a gas mask in a five-degree room with a concentration
>>>of Zyklon equivalent to that used in the Birkenau gas chambers.
>>
>>	Obviously you are completely ignorant of P Chem and have no
>>business pretending to contribute to this discussion.  

>    My knowledge of P Chem or lack thereof proves nothing about your
>knowledge of P Chem.  You are the one making claims to know something
>about the subject, not I.  Therefore you are the one bearing the burden of
>proof.  But you know that.

	Then post the equations with the constants filled in as you must
have known them to make the hand waving claim about vapor
pressure.

>    Would you be in danger under the conditions described or not?  The
>possible answers are "Yes," "No," or "I don't know."  It is the state of
>your knowledge that is at issue, not mine.

	Post the equations.

>>	You have no concept of any science whatsoever or if you do you
>>are misrepresenting what little you do know.  Your credentials
>>are invited.

>    Credentials?  Now, why would a man who said, "You folks still playing
>around college seem to think credentials mean something.  Some day you
>will join the real world and learn better," ask for credentials?

	Post the equations.

>Source:
>   Subject: Re: Translation needed was: (Re: Remembering the holocaust)
>   Date: 1996/03/16
>   MessageID: <4ie722$p5o@wi.combase.com>
>   Linkname: DejaNews Document 830996164.12380:dnserver.db96q1:9597438
>        URL:
>          http://dejanews.dejanews.com/cgi-bin/dngetdoc.html?RECNUM=95974
>          38+SERVER=dnserver.db96q1+CONTEXT=830996164.12380

>    (In case you're wondering, it was a matter of but a few minutes to
>find the above text.  It appears I have a much better memory for what you
>said than you do yourself.) 

	Post the equations.

>    Obviously you are trying to evade the issue.  You pretend credentials
>mean nothing when you wish to evade debating someone who has them, but you
>suddenly decide they mean something when your statements are challenged by
>someone who you think does not have them.  But that is only what one would
>expect from a dishonest troll.

>    My ignorance is not at issue here.  Yours is.  Hurling insults at me
>proves nothing about what you do or don't know.  It is merely a juvenile
>attempt to evade accountability for your prior statements.

>    But you know that.

	Post the equations.

>    Now, do you seriously doubt the product instructions, and believe that
>Zyklon could not be used effectively at five degrees as claimed, or were
>you just trolling by _appearing_ to doubt it with language which gives you
>"plausible deniability?"

>    Psychic prediction: Mr. Giwer will never give a straight answer to the
>above question.

	Post the equations.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:19:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Thu, 02 May 1996 14:33:33 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Indeed. If this is then the case- that this "Al Gentile" was never
>!declared a Righteous Gentile-and thatthis has already been shown to Mr.
>!Grynspan, I would then ask Mr. Grynspan WHY heis abetting oneof Giwer's
>!lies? 
>!(I'm sure we all can guess as to Giwer's motives.) 

>Same mentality. They must use any means, no matter how ethically
>corrupt, to destroy anyone who takes them to task for their crap. Notice
>too, Grynspan doesnt even have an issue other than defending Giwer and
>Gentile. CONTROL FREAKS.

>I've watched both their acts for most of a decade, its the same game.
>They troll for emotionally disturbed right-wing loonies to win over and
>then lead the poor idiots into their sick games of unethical net
>behavior (netscabing). The poor morons who shine up to them end up
>getting little other than their reputations ruined, their credibility
>destroyed, tossed off systems, and made complete fools of. Then the
>GIWER/GRYNSPAN unit disappear for a while and come back and try it
>again.

>The problem is this newsgroup doesnt have the RIGHT KIND of right-wing
>morons for them to win over. Baron, Moran, Kleim, etc., consider
>themselves leaders not followers, not easily manipulated. 

>They are getting frustrated, and the more frustrated they get, the lower
>they go into the lying, forging and intimidation. The only surprise I
>have had so far is Grynspan hasn't threatend to sue anyone yet, which is
>usually how he makes an entrance... 

	Sounds like you have managed to find the radio station Alec
broadcasts on.  Or was it just a different tooth?



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:28:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>    GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
>>>    when in fact he is just making up lies.  It has never been asserted
>>>    that there were "gas chambers all over Germany."  Giwer may respond to
>>>    this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
>>>    a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true.  he
>>>    won't respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.

>>	Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
>>Germany?  

>It is very difficult to tell you the evidence and truth if you keep
>distorting what you are told. It isn't an adult thing to do and it is
>an obvious tactic to others.

	When the truth changes from not in Germany, to at Dachau, to in
camps all over Germany in only a few days it is very difficult to
determine which truth we are dealing with.  

	It is particularly difficult when I originally made the statement
that the story had changed from all over Germany to none in
Germany over the years and the first response (followed by a
pile-on by the amen corner) that there was never a claim of gas
chambers in Germany, that the story had always been that there
were none in Germany.

	What is particularly interesting now is that the same amen corner
"knew all along" that there were gas chambers in camps in
Germany.  

	The amen corner should be more skeptical of what they read here
before they claim they knew it all along.  Otherwise they wind up
knowing way too many conflicting things all along.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 20:58:24 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4mallc$19u@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten  writes...

>[deleted Giwer and part of my response]

>>>And if you think archaeologists don't debate, at times very
>>>heatedly, the significance of what they "look at" and its
>>>broader interpretative meaning, you're merely blowing more
>>>hot air.  I'd be happy to provide you with some references
>>>about "scholarly debates" in archaeology if you are interested.

>>    Or he could just go read some Stephen Jay Gould.

>Ooooooooooooooo!  What an idea!!  Read a book or two!!!  Na!!!
>*Real scientists* don't need no stinkin' books!!!

	A fascinating belief that Gould publishes anything but a
popularization in his books.  Or would you care to name the
textbooks of his you have read?


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:17:49 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  5:18:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:


>>	Except that your bosom buddy, David Dahlman knows all about him.


>DEMENTED ALERT: Giwer doesn't seem to recognize that the existance of
>a person with a name hardly qualifies the assertions attributed to
>said person. The person may exist as a being, but is still unknown to
>the SW center or to anyone else for that matter. 

	Who made them an authority?  

	But I thought the word of all "eyewitnesses" were to be accepted
without question in this group.  When did the rule change?




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34628 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:50:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4me2o3$mpt@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>>
>>>Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka death
>>>camp site -- and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives
>>>in Washington, DC -- cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story that
>>>it was a mass extermination center.
>>
>>Treblinka was erected in late May- earlier June 42; first "transport"
>>on July 23; and dismantled at the end of November 43. A former
>>Ukrainian guard named Strebel with his family became a farmer on this
>>area, planted pine woods, saw lupin,.. So in 44, a photograph would
>>hardly show anything. 

>	Only in the Holocaust story. One year there is nothing, the
>next year it was a roaring extermination camp where up to 2,000,000
>people were killed and the next year it's a tree farm, and nothing is
>left to take a picture of but trees. No rail line, no roads, no
>buildings, no fire pit(s), no gas chambers, no barracks, only trees.
>Yikes. Only the Holocaust story tellers would press something this
>rediculous - as true.

	Sounds like another Wolsek.   Even cleaned up the pits to get rid
of the calcium.  Very efficient those Germans.  

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34630 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 07:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that
>tilts ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the
>story, right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentative. 
>	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
>efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
>	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifistation of
>the child logic on alt.revisionism, all the charges of "hate" and
>"racism" can not stamp out the basic prevailant human nature to be
>suspicious of someone who professes something and then not only
>refuses to discuss it, but actually tries to stop any further
>discussion.  
>	All it does is push the suspicious mind in the direction of
>the views of those who are attacked. 

	Unlike money, good information drives out bad.  

	The dissemination of all information needs be unatttacked in any
venue other than competing information.  

	Going beyond the medium of presentation is vendetta (Kan'li to
our SF WorldCon freak here.)  

	Harrassing providers, threatening public exposure, harrassing
employers, goes beyond the medium of exchange.  

	It is an attempt to use other methods to drive out information,
good or bad, that are not related to the information itself that
is the provence of the holohuggers on the grounds that "they have
done it to" the tribal "us" that makes them an immoral activity.

	It is the initiation of violence in the form of harrassment and
intimation that separates the holohuggers and the amen corner
>from  the civilized population of the world.  They are of the
"scruples are best served with garlic butter" camp.  They would
eat them rather than have them.

	It is these animals who are eating their own case alive.  

	Serious scrutiny can not be stopped forever.  It is a matter of
time before the house of cards comes tumbling down to their own
detriment.  But they do not care.  They are pushing an advantage
beyond the strength of that advantage.  They are very foolish in
this regard.  

	
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:44:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 283
Message-ID: <4me224$c56@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4m6kq7$1r2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4m7592$c2s@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <1MAY199620332041@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mc0on$ikr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> 
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Loony@ProzacRus (mgiwer) wrote:

>In article <4mc0on$ikr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com 
>says...
>>
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4m7592$c2s@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, 
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>> 
>>>>      The "academic" claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>>>>dropping a quarter for verification.  My experience in these
>>>>public exchanges started in 1980.  My experience is also that the
>>>>grander the claim the less likely to be true.  
>>
>>>    Exactly.  And as your claims about the "science" of the Holocaust 
>are
>>>    certainly grand in that they conflict what every Historian in the 
>world
>>>    accepts to be true, your claims are "less likely to be true."  And 
>at
>>>    the very least require extraordinary effort on your part to prove 
>them
>>>    true.  That is, the burden of proof is most certainly on you.
>>
>>        What would a historian know about science?  Certainly no more
>>than you and yet you believe you are capable of judging for
>>yourself.  
>>
>>>>      Credentials are never to be taken as true as given.  Were I to
>>>>dredge up old memories I could give a long list.  But in this
>>>>case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates.  Department
>>>>members are likely the same.  (A department member sig even
>>>>vanished when I mentioned that point.)   Note the near complete
>>>>lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>>>>the internet.
>>
>>>    What you "were to dredge up" carries no weight.  Do you have any
>>>    specific charges to level here?  I thought not.  
>>
>>        A question is not a charge.
>>
>>But just to save you
>>>    the quarter, here is what you will find about me if you check the
>>>    University of Arizona (my alma mater) on-line card catalog under 
>my
>>>    name:
>>
>>>    CALL #     Micro fiche E9791 1995 86
>>>    AUTHOR     Mittleman, Daniel David, 1958-
>>>    TITLE      Architectural programming toolbox : using group support
>>>               systems technology to increase the effectiveness of 
>user
>>>               participation in architectural programming (PHD 
>Dissertation)
>>>    PUBLISHER  Tucson, Arizona : University of Arizona, 1995.
>>
>>>    I suspect that Dr. Keren's, and Judge Edeiken's credentials are 
>also
>>>    available on-line.
>>
>>>    All in all, you are making vague charges with no evidence to back 
>them
>>>    up.  So, basically, what we have here is more Giwer hot air.  And
>>>    nothing more.
>>
>>>    I should add here that I have spent four years posting in
>>>    alt.revisionism without ever discussing my background or 
>credentials. 
>>>    In general, I am not too impressed by people's credentials.  What 
>I
>>>    find much more important is the manner in which people present and
>>>    defend their arguments.  I am a bit uncomfortable about posting 
>this
>>>    information about me, but I feel that Giwer's assertions merit a
>>>    response.
>>
>>        And I would not ordinarily do so either.  Yet there were posts
>>made by others.  The first group were claiming I did not know
>>anything about science and the second group pointing to others as
>>authorities because of credentials.  As such matters were
>>introduced by others they are certainly fair game for me to
>>discuss.  
>>
>>>>      Note here we have identification without what one would 
>basically
>>>>expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>>>>Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>>>>those claiming the credentials.  One has to accept that
>>>>accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>>>>reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>>>>fact available through this medium.  
>>
>>>    I suspect that a careful analysis of the post here over time will
>>>    demonstrate that the academics are careful to provide detailed
>>>    citations when appropriate.  I suspect that a careful analysis of
>>>    previous posts between the academics and you will indicate that 
>the
>>>    academics began by carefully citing sources and found that you 
>showed
>>>    no interest or skill in actively discussing the key points in 
>those
>>>    sources LET ALONE READING ANY OF THEM.  I suspect that interviews 
>with
>>>    all of the academics regularly posting here would reveal that none 
>of
>>>    them has any respect for you at all and considers that you, at 
>this
>>>    point in time, merit nothing more than ridicule.   
>>
>>        But in this case we have people in computer science claiming to
>>know science.  
>>
>>        And you will note that not only do I read most all of what is
>>posted here in support of the claims I also comment upon them
>>when they contain conflicting details, either with physical law
>>or other such posts.  Thus it is unclear why you would make the
>>claim that I do not read what is posted here.  
>>
>>        And as for your academics posting here, which are declared
>>specialists upon the holocaust?  A truly multidisciplinary
>>approach would certainly consider all inputs as equal rather than
>>ridiculing that which they are unprepared to understand.
>>
>>>    Case in point: why should anyone (let alone a scholar) try to 
>debate
>>>    Goldhagen's thesis with you when you:
>>
>>>    1. HAVEN'T EVEN READ THE BOOK
>>>    2. Misrepresent what is put in front of you in this conference
>>>    3. Focus in on miniscule unimportant points from the book and 
>refuse to
>>>       drop them even when it is demonstrated you are wrong.
>>
>>        I have commented upon what was posted here.  Any 
>misreprestation
>>that you see is you not liking the consequences of what was
>>posted. According to what was posted here about the book the
>>"miniscule" point has been blaiming every German for the actions
>>of the SS.  
>>
>>        You folks have cherished myths that exist independent of each
>>other and you will not face the consequences of those myths or of
>>comparing those myths to each other.  Why you have those
>>problems, I have no idea.
>>
>>>>      But the few references to the FAQs find them asking more
>>>>questions than they are answering.  The talk.origins FAQs at
>>>>least has dozens of answers to the creationists and the flood
>>>>lovers and take as little guff from those who have no
>>>>comprehension of physical law.  
>>
>>>    The Nizker FAQ does essentially the same thing.  Have you read it?
>>
>>        Several of them.   And, as you know, I have posted some of the
>>conflicting truths and false to physical fact and law in them.
>>Are you saying you have not read what I have posted?  Are you
>>saying you have not read my many references within other messages
>>to the conflicts in the Nizkor FAQs as related to the point I am
>>addressing?  
>>
>>        Why are you either a) making that claim or b) not reading what 
>I
>>post here before you form an opinion?
>>
>>>>      For example the t.o FAQs will provide dozens of examples of
>>>>transitional species in answer to the claim there are no
>>>>transitional species.  The holocaust FAQS are silent [on] dozens of
>>>>examples of death from CO in 15-30 minutes as well as silent on
>>>>dozens of examples of cremation times and all the rest.
>>
>>>    As I look up the 66 Questions and Responses at Nizkor, I find in 
>the
>>>    middle of them the questions on Zyklon-B:
>>
>>        Back up and read.  The subject is CO.
>>
>>>      "27.What kind of gas was used by the Nazis in concentration 
>camps? 
>>
>>>      28.For what purpose was, and is, this gas manufactured? 
>>
>>>      29.Why did they use this instead of a gas more suitable for mass
>>>      extermination? 
>>
>>>      30.How long does it take to ventilate fully an area fumigated by
>>>      Zyklon-B? 
>>
>>>      31.Auschwitz commandant Hoss said that his men would enter the 
>gas
>>>      chamber ten minutes after the Jews had died and remove them. How 
>do
>>>      you explain this? 
>>
>>>      32.Hoss said in his confession that his men would smoke 
>cigarettes as
>>>      they pulled the dead Jews out of the gas chambers ten minutes 
>after
>>>      gassing. Isn't Zyklon-B explosive?" 
>>
>>>    And of course the answers to these questions are posted as well.  
>You
>>>    are right that there are no CO questions and answers, apparently
>>>    because the IHR had not raised this point.  Possibly the Nizkor
>>>    volunteers will assemble answers regarding CO (if they perceive it 
>is
>>>    more than one lunatic who is asserting the matter is of 
>importance.)
>>
>>        Why would ONLY the interest of the IHR provoke such effort?  
>That
>>indicates it has chosen the IHR as its enemy and acts only in
>>response to what they do.  I thought the purpose was an extensive
>>documentation of event and available material despite its use of
>>the near worthless REGEX for searching.  
>>
>>        But as another example, you had to throw in the "lunatic" yet 
>the
>>times I gave are the shortest and longest that have been posted
>>here from "eyewitness" testimony.  They they must be the lunatics
>>you are referring to.  And yet those lunatics are the basis for
>>the stories.
>>
>>>>      It is barely a fair comparison to equate holohuggers with
>>>>creationists.  At least the creationists have invented their own
>>>>fabulous sciences to support their claims.  The holohuggers have
>>>>not even bothered to create their own fabulous science as an
>>>>underpinning for their claims.
>>
>>>    It is not necessary to.  Real science works just fine.
>>
>>        Do to your ignorance of the subject, you are unaware that it 
>does
>>not.  
>>        
>>
>>-------------------
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>
>>   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>>

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:11:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colin McGregor 
To: Matt Giwer 
cc: nitefall@idirect.com
Subject: Re: mail bombing by your company
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On Fri, 3 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>         I have some 40 copies of this same message and I will be happy to
> send all of them to you.  They all arrived today.
> 
>         As mail bombing is now official idirect policy, I do not see you
> will have any objection, should you fail to respond, again requesting
> assisstance from your users.  

We will investigate this.

Colin McGregor
Internet Direct

 
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34632 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:31:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4me1hu$p0a@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21668 alt.revisionism:34632

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Thu, 2 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> It is
>> unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>> involved with secular history.  But if it is religious history
>> that makes Nizkor a religious site.  
>> 

>Damn! I guess we'd better start an investigation of what religion 
>Tucson's Pima Air Museum is affiliated with!

	If you are really interested you could write the address where
contributions are accepted and ask.  
---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!news.titan.com!news.cerf.net!proton.llumc.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!blanket.mitre.org!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:38:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4m8hte$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4l3uno$q77@news.nyu.edu> <4lbjab$jhg@wi.combase.com>  <4lrvc5$4qe@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4lrvc5$4qe@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4lbjab$jhg@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >Again, in regards to the Kellog-Briand Pact, its violation by Germany, and
>> >the bringing of charges against Nazi officials for waging aggressive
>> >warfare, has little to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany
>> >was a signatory _prior_ to the violations that were committed.
>> 
>> This is where the discussion had progressed when it was dropped
>> and you folks forgot all about it.  
>> 
>> It was at this point I noted that laws carry a penalty section
>> also.  I further noted there were no penalties to individuals for
>> violations of these treaties nor was there an enforcement
>> organization established by these treaties.  

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems blissfully unawares that the issue of ex post
>facto laws derive from the maxim _Nulla poeans sine lege_, or "No
>punishment without law." This, of course, is not the same thing as a law
>or, this particlar case, international treaty, without a specified
>punishment. 

>To reiterate, as Giwer did not care to address the specifics of my
>previous post: 

>To clarify the issue once more, it is worth noting that the issue of the
>"ex post facto problem" arose in the context of the waging of aggressive
>warfare. Telford Taylor discussed the "ex post facto problem" as follows
>(_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.50-51, p.51fn):

>   In view of the criminal charges listed in the draft executive agreement,
>   I had of course been hearing much discussion of the question of whether
>   the launching of aggressive war could legitimately be treated as an 
>   international-law crime. I wrote:

	This is an awfully long post and of course I have saved it for
reference.  

	But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
Auschwitz?  

	Now do not get me wrong.  I have no problem with a speedy trial
an a slow execution.  I do have a serious problem with a claim of
justice.  

	It is the hypocritic attempt to cloak victor's justice with the
sanctimony of an OJ sytle trial that bothers me.
	
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:20:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4lupgt$lnp@Vir.com> <4m6bo5$qra@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4mbsc3$9c3@boris.eden.com>
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <4m6bo5$qra@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >  By the way Mr Van Alstine, before to continue, I would like to know what
>>> >  was exactly your reference about those burning pits were the germans were
>>> >  suppose to burn bodies and collect fat...

>>Mr. Beaulieu can find references from which fat was collected as fuel for
>>the fire in the incineration pits in:

>>_The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.629.

>Yup:

>"Eight pits were dug, each about 4 by 60 yards in size. On the bottom
>of the pits the human fat was collected and poured back into the fire
>with buckets to hasten the cremations."

	Now we are back to people supporting the idiot fat story because
there was absolutely uncontestable eyewitness testimony.  

	Can you explain the property of human fat such that it does not
burn when first exposed to fire but burns after collection?  

	Do you think I could save a load of charcoal and simply light all
that collected fat in the bottom of the BBQ?  

	It is amazing what people can believe when they want to believe.
And we will even have one of our resident chemists coming back
with his old bone burning routine.  He didn't like fat in bone
ash last time.  It got in the way of his cherished belief.

>>_Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.463.

>Yup:

>"With the Soviet forces fast approaching Romania, time was of the
>essence. A large number of prisoners were employed to bring the
>destruction machinery up to date. Under Moll's direction, the
>crematoria were renovated: the furnaces relined, the chimenys were
>strengthened with iron bands, the loading and unloading ramps were
>completed with a three-track railway system that provided a direct
>link to the death furnaces, and large pits were dug in the immediate
>vicinity of the gas chambers for the burning of the large number of
>corpses that the crematoria could not handle. Each pit was 40 to 50
>meters long, 8 m wide, and 2 m deep. At the bottom of each pit a
>channel was dug in the center to make possible the "harvesting" of the
>fat exuding from the burning corpses for reuse as fuel in the
>cremation process. At the height of the deportations from Hungary nine
>such pits were in operation, in addition to the crematoria."

	It is not strange to find you posting such a thing.  The truly
strange thing is that you believe it.  If someone else has the
time they might go over the rest of the absurdities in this
paragraph.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 34636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:05:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>Stangl said to Sereny: "Nobody knew nothing, nothing clear, guessed
>>nothing. But hundreds of soldiers and civilian came to the entry of
>>the camp; along the barriers, trying to buy things because they knew
>>the existence of all this business. During a time, we even saw planes
>>flying low to see what happened [..]. We shot and they stopped. But we
>>were never able to stop the others. They saw corpses of Jews on the
>>terrain or carried out of the station. They photographed them. The
>>whole place stank miles away. Two weeks after a "visit", many people
>>told they could no longer eat. But no, they knew nothing clear,
>>nothing. Of course.."

>	Of course any proof always comes from eyewitnesses. Anyway
>here we have hundreds of soldiers and civilians prowling the the
>perimeter, right up against the fence on both sides buying and
>selling. Wait a minute, didn't Mr.Bilik just say "... it was strongly
>forbidden to come closer or to look inside ..."? 

	Ah, yes, they had to stay so far away that they confused engine
exhaust with steam.

>>"The women and children from the arriving transport were divided into
>>groups of 200 each and were taken to the "baths", which was located
>>closest to the digging machine. From the bath nobody returned, and
>>news groups were entering there constantly. That bath was actually a
>>house of murder. The floor in this barrack opened up and the people
>>fell into a machine. According to the opinion of some of thouse who
>>escaped, the people in the barrack were gassed. According to another
>>opinion they were killed by electrical current. From the small tower
>>over the bath, there were constant shots. [..]. The bath absorbs 200
>>people every fifteen minutes, so in twenty-four hours the capacity is
>>20000 people. That was the explanation for the incessant arrival of
>>people in the camp, from where there was no return, except a few
>>hundred who succeeded in escaping during the whole time.."

>	"Digging machine"? "The floor ...opened up and the people fell
>into a machine"?  People from a tower shot down into the bath. The
>bath "absorbs" 20,000 people a day?  

	Of course, we must ignore the ridiculous parts of the story so
that the truth is preserved for all posterity.

>>So, in September 42, indications are precise, quoting even the
>>Lazarett, and the uncertainty concerns the exact mode of execution.
>>That's logical since there is no escape once in the highest part of
>>the camp, and very few contacts between the two parts.  It is the best
>>testimony possible at this time. A lot believed that the noise of
>>Diesel was coming from the digger.

>"True also that it was quickly no secret about what happened into the
>camp."

>"... it was strongly forbidden to come closer or to look inside ..."? 

>"But hundreds of soldiers and civilian came to the entry of
>the camp; along the barriers, ..."
> 		
>You better post the eyewitnesss testimony. In its full.

	Even the truth can be anti-semitic.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34637 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That's Incredible!
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 05:51:44 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>## What's the matter, Giwer old boy? You want a postscript file
>## of my doctoral thesis? Shoot, maybe I shouldn't take the risk?
>## After all, the 163-IQ man might find an error in it (smirk).

># You have my email address if you want to take a shot at it.  But
># first convert it to plain ascii as postscript is of no value to
># me.  

>Won't work - all the formulas and figures can't be converted to ascii.

>## Name one SS-man from Treblinka, Belzec, or Sobibor, who
>## testified to murder by such methods.

># I was thinking of victim statements.  

>Name one member of the sodnerkommando at Treblinka who gave
>such testimony. As I said, these testimonies originated from
>members of the Polish underground who were spying on the
>camps from a distance.

	Have you really missed all that has been posted here on the
subject in the last couple days?   If you really have I will
happily dig some up and post them again.  	

># How does one confuse white condensed steam (clouds at best) 
># with with blue-black exhaust?

>As I recall, when, in the Pattle et. al. experiment, the engine
>was run in high fuel-air ratios, ther was a lot of white
>smoke in the chamber (and, BTW, this resulted in the quickest
>death for the animals exposed to the exhaust).

	No there is not.  When an engine is running rich the exhaust
comes out black.  If you have ever seen a car old enough not to
be EPA approved, when the pedal is put down, the exhaust is
black.  That is partially burned hydrocarbons.  On a diesel it is
worse as they are added to the black particulate carbon that is
emitted.  

>Prof. Pfannenstiel testified of the peephole being covered with steam.
>Another factor must have been the enormous heat in the chamber,
>which resulted in the victims sweating.

	Although the temperature would rise considerably, probably on the
order of 500 degrees the condensation would in no manner result
in enough to give the slighest whiteness to this black.  It is
simply a matter of the maximum throughput rate of sweat ducts.
Most of it would remain as liquid on the skin as the body
temperate would be dominant over the evaporation rate.  

	While condensation on glass could be explained by the evaporation
it is not clear how it could have lasted long given the
temperature of the gases in the room.  Glass has a very low
thermal conductivity and once the surface was heated the
condensation would go away.  Any condensation would certainly
have been quite temporary.

># And certainly they would at some point have noticed quantities of
># fuel being pumped into the tanks and noticed the coincident sound
># of the engines.  

>There were no tanks there. Only the engines. And how could they
>see the fuel being pumped into it? As for the noise, it depends
>on how far they were. 

	FUEL tanks.  These things needed fuel tank.  Certainly they would
have removed not only the engines but the fuel tanks, the
batteries, the entire ignition system and wiring in addition to
the engine mounts.  If they did not take the engine mounts, and
it is not clear how they could without taking the tank frame with
it, then all of the connections to it would have broken by
vibration.

	It would be no different from trying to take an engine out of a
car today.  That is why I have said the claim of engines only is
rather ridiculous when simply moving the tank into position would
be so much easier.  The way it is currently described they still
had to bring in the tank chassis but went through the effort of
removing all of the armor and cutting away half of the chassis
before doing so.  

	You need to think these claims through before you accept them.

># Clearly your explanation is not reasonable yet you will not take
># kindly to even a question of this hypothetical explanation.

>It's perfectly reasonable; it's just that Nazi-lovers will go to
>any length to defend their heroes and deny the atrocities they
>committed.

	You are the one who has no concept of what you are talking about.
It is not reasonable to believe that partially burned
hydrocarbons were white at Treblinka when in all other places and
times they are black.  You are the one who has massively
dissected tanks when the tanks themselves would have been
infinitely easier to use.  

	You are the one who believes instead of skeptically reviewing
your beliefs against known fact.  

># Lets get on to the electrocution.  Did they see flashing lights
># inside at night?  

>I have no idea what they saw. As noted, there were incorrect rumors, 
>as with every historical event. Like the people "glowing orange and
>vanishing" during the bombing of Dresden.

	Which is no different from claiming that a rich fuel mixture
would appear white.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:43:30 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Both Mike Curtis and Mark Van Alstine are correct. 
>Giwer and Beaulieu are wrong to question these two honest researchers.

	Curtis is an honest researcher.  At some time in your life you
probably had some experience with BBQ.  Did you ever collect the
fat from the bottom of it?  Your "honest researcher" believes fat
doesn't burn the first time it is exposed to fire but only the
second time.  Or perhaps he believes it is only human fat that is
different. 

>Giwer, doesn't know his ass from third base, that's a give. 

	Your "honest researcher" is as ignorant as you.

Beaulieu, 
>seems like a denier to me. In any case the question is about "burning 
>pits" at The Nazi Death Camp "Auschwitz." The pits were there in July 
>of 1945. I saw them, still contained bones and ashes. 

	You were now in Poland in 1945?  You did say you fought for the
Red Army, didn't you?  Did you do all of this liberation
single-handed or did you simply fail map reading and not know
where you were?

A deligation of 
>American ranking officers were flown to Krakow and taken to Auschwitz- 
>Birkenau, where we spent six days, hosted by Russian Officers. 

	Now this one is easy.  You were a ranking officer.  What rank?
We have the name.  A serial number would help.  After all, you
should be (but  no holohugger will) subject your claims to the
same scrutiny as Al Gentile's.  

They 
>escorted us to every nook and cranny of this horrible place. 10,000 or 
>so inmates were still there, very ill. The Soviet doctors did 
>everything in their power to save those people who had been left to 
>die by the departed SS, along with many thousands of inmates who were 
>forced to march toward Germany. Most of them didn't make it. They died 
>or were killed by the SS enroute. All of the baloney which the deniers 
>have posted since I joined this newsgroup 4 months ago, regarding the 
>crematoriums, gas chambers, burning pits and just about everything 
>they try to tear apart from the truth of what really happened during 
>the existance of this most notorious "Death Camp" of them all, is 
>second guessing, opinions of so-called "experts" none of whom knew 
>what to look for, and most lied in their reporst to the denier groups. 
>Claims are made that the Commandant Hoess confessed under torture, but 
>he wrote his Autobiography, after the Nuremberg trials, while in a 
>Polish prison for two years. 

	You mean the autobiography that did not appear in print until
1959 according to the Auschwitz FAQ?  You mean the man who was
not tried until March 1947 spent his time writing a detailed
confession that would constitute his death warrant?  Is this the
person you are talking about?

In his own words, Hoess tells of the 
>number of people he could gas and cremate when in full operation. He 
>claims they could gas, and burn up to six thousand people per day 
>seven days per week and they did just that. He doesn't say every day, 
>or every week, just that it could be done and was done. When twelve 
>American officers from SHAEF toured the camp, our interpreters and the 
>Russian interpreters talked to all of us and explained how the camp 
>was when they liberated it, and what changes they had made, (very few) 
>and how they had provided proper burials for any inmate who died after 
>liberation, and many did. We flew back to Frankfurt, Germany, the 
>SHAEF people made out their reports, the pilots were assigned to fly 
>Brass around Europe until we came home. In my case, Dec 1945.
>So proceed all you doubters, deniers, hairsplitters, so-called experts 
>and all the rest. Continue your silly arguments about things you know 
>nothing about except what some so-called scholor or so-called expert 
>wrote in his book. It happened just like the history books say it 
>happened, and nothing you deniers say can change one iota of the 
>truth.
>Chuck Ferree 

	It is completely unclear what your role in this was.  A high
ranking officer?  A pilot?  A translator?  A member of an
officers' staff?  

	This is all quite a ways from only a few months earlier having
been a camp liberator.  

	Or am I using up too much of the newsgroup with this post?


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34649 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 00:34:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4mbpe3$r9c@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 

>[snip]

>> >I've seen both photos, and the I posted looks nearly the same, accepting
>> >that it was not in color of course. The one that _was_ in color clealrly
>> >show blue stains on the wall that the door is in. And yes, the caption to
>> >it commented on the stains being a by-product of HCN gas. (i.e. "Prussian
>> >Blue?") 
>> 
>>  One will hope you have the courtesy to post the color picture and
>> then explain the iron wall.  You will remember there was a long
>> holohugger post about the third valence state of iron to get this
>> color.

>One would have hoped YOU would have had the courtesy to sew your lips shut
>a long time ago, Mr. "I see steps on the ramp without looking at the
>photo" Giwer. But, alas, it was not to be....

>As for posting the _color_ photo, of the Madjanek gas chamber, alas, that
>is not to be as I don't have a color scanner. Nor the inclination to
>oblige you even if I did Mr. "The furnaces made more HCN than was in the
>gas chamber- Because I Say So!" Giwer. You asked for a photo of a the gas
>chamber and I posted it. You want another? Post it yourself. 

	You could at least document the iron wall construction.  And of
course, as you now know, one of the commercial sources of HCN is
>from  the flue gases of coke fires.  

	As for the picture you did post, there is not one thing about the
picture to indicate what it might be.   And although it is of
extremely poor quality there appear to be two rectangular objects
mounted on the left wall and the door appears to be wood and
appears to have a handle on the inside.  

	You have posted nothing but a very poor quality picture and
claimed that it is a gas chamber.  I could have done that.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:01 PDT 1996
Article: 34650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Junior Holocaust Defense Leagues starts next Saturday morning
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 00:37:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) writes:
>>  In article <4lq0e2$i49@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whined about his abnormally high IQ:
>>  
>>  	I was asked what it was.  I only posted the lowest number I have
>>  	ever been told.  If you have a problem with that, it means you
>>  	are only a genius.
>>  
>>  
>>  I responded:
>>  
>>  	Which only proves that Mr. Giwer is intellectually dishonest,
>>  	as he uses his vaunted "high IQ" to construct specious arguments
>>  	-- that is, arguments that seem logical, but are really
>>  	illogical!


>	What you seem to forget is that the only evidence Giwer has posted of 
>his I.Q. is eyewitness testimony.  He has also told us that eyewitness testimony is 
>*always* unreliable.  It was all just a test to see if you can reason logically.  Those 
>who can, will readily discern that Giwer is being dishonest when he reports his 
>I.Q.

>	--YFE

	Still haven't mastered the killfile I see.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:02 PDT 1996
Article: 34652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Les Griswold: Leader
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:06:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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ka_strom@ix.netcom.com (Kevin Alfred Strom) wrote:

>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>In article <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu>, 
>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>>>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  
>>>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.

>>I wouldn't dream of getting the Griswold fired. I want him to
>>get the recognition he so richly deserves, and have taken
>>steps to initiate that recognition by mentioning his name
>>to Members of Parliament concerned with human rights issues,
>>and to members of the Fifth Estate across Canada. It is, after
>>all, the least I can do for the pathetic little fellow. 

>>I want Canadians to see his manly little physique on CPAC, our
>>Parliamentary television channel. I want them to see this
>>dark-haired, frail little "Aryan superman" in all his glory, 
>>spouting incessant inanities for anyone who will listen, his
>>words of wisdom simultaneously translated into French.

>>I want Canada's legislators to learn from the sharing of the
>>Griswold Wisdoms; hell, I want "Griswold" to become a
>>familiar name to each and every Canadian. I want Canadians to
>>thrill every time Griswold opens his little mouth.

>>I want our MP's to hear him explain that they need to contact
>>"The head office" if they want an interview. The laughter
>>should resound from ocean to ocean on that one alone,
>>parlicularly when our Mr. "I can't talk to the media because I am
>>too stupid, and Pierce won't permit it" Griswold is asked to
>>reconcile this head office directive with his clear
>>achievement: He's made a fool of himself on the internet
>>without Mr. Pierce's approval. (Anyone reading his wise and
>>timely wisdom will recognize this at once!)

>>I want Lester to become famous throughout the land; I want him
>>to be pointed to as an example of just how far Aryan
>>Superheros can rise in our country. Security guard! Imagine
>>that! Our Noble Aryan Hero, that Leader Among Men, the head of
>>the National Appliance in Canada, Grand Fuehrer and Lord
>>Grease, Lester Griswold himself, risen on the strength of his
>>wisdom and vision to the lofty position of security guard!

>>A True Canadian Hero, our cute little Griswold, perhaps about
>>to receive the recognition he so richly deserves... wait for
>>it :-)

>>As anyone who watched CPAC last Tuesday will tell you, Mr.
>>Griswold's name is even now resounding in the Centre Block of
>>Parliament, and I have only begun my quest to help him achieve
>>Fame and Recognition in Canada.

>>William Pierce should enjoy it. I know I will.
>>-- 
>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)

>Translation:

>McVay wants to use the government to intimidate, imprison, or
>otherwise ruin those with whom he disagrees. There is no other
>reasonable explanation for his statements.

>If Mr. McVay had absolute confidence in the veracity of his position,
>he would not resort to such tactics.

>Still free and still brown-haired,

	I hope you are not surprised by this.



---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 34655 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little common sense, grammar school, and chemistry
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:04:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4meakh$rq3@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References: <199605039728.ABC87127@infinity.c2.org> <4mcbrd$i0e@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4mcqhd$ou2@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  8:07:29 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:869 alt.revisionism:34655

rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4mcbrd$i0e@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
>Richard Charles Graves  wrote:
>>In article <199605039728.ABC87127@infinity.c2.org>, ezundel@alpha.c2.org

>>Mr. Green? I believe this is where you came in.

>Mr. Giwer was going to pursue this question, but has neglected to do so.
>Perhaps he has no chemistry, grammar schooling, or common sense...

	We left it the last time with you needing to demonstrate that
1/10 gm of organics can produce some 750 calories.  

	That is why I have not added this to the list along with your HCN
>from  flue gas and burning bones routines.


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 34656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:35:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4mec7e$6bb@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>Alexander Baron  wrote:

>>> Suchomel, without reason to lie, repeated what he always told in the
>>> past. That's substantially what other SS as Stangl, Horn, Munzberger
>>> said; the same what the escaped inmates said too.
>>> 
>>> How could these testimonies be so concordant ?

>>That is a thought. I should point out that I haven't ruled out the suggestion
>>that large numbers of Jews were murdered in these camps, I have made this 
>>plain before - Morgen claimed this. I am saying that the figures are absurb
>>and grotesque and that the mass gassing stories are piffle. As to whether 
>>there were any gassings at all...

>>I will say that the little I have read about Treblinka et al so far does not
>>lend much credence to the Exterminationist version.

>I don't understand your point. If you don't rule out the "suggestion"
>that large numbers of Jews were murdered in this camp (and it's wise,
>since many people saw the convoys, the burnings from several
>kilometers, and even in the station a dozen of cars at a time going to
>Treblinka and coming back emptied a few hours later), what do you
>think it could occur to these Jews ? A different method of mass
>murdering ?

	When people want to believe something they will believe it no
matter what?  

	Convoys of what?  How would they know the cars that left were
empty any more than they would know they were full when entering?


	What about burnings did they see for kilometers?  



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:04 PDT 1996
Article: 34657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:08:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 21:50:54 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>The targets were launch sites.  It's really that simple, Matt.
>!
>!An ambulance was a launch site?
>!A power station was a launch site?
>!Any vehicle attempting to cross a bridge was a launch site?
>!Just how many thousands of launch sites do you think there were?

>What crap you anti-Semites work with this issue. It was a mistake, an
>awful mistake, we all know it was a mistake because there would be no
>motive AT ALL for bombing a UN refugee hospital. A 300 meter long range
>artillery mistake. 

	After they were told on the telephone that it was a refugee camp,
it was a mistake?  After they carefully targeted the camp it was
a mistake?  

>None of the attacks on Isrealies are MISTAKES.
>Neither was the Holocaust Giwer...
>It was a PLANNED EXTERMINATION USING GAS.
>Got it? Good... 

	Been listening to me on the radio again?

>       I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
>      disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by.
>             ----------------------------------
>      Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg
>Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 06:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 34658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor, need a tax break today?
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:59:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 198
Message-ID: <4medfn$j1v@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@combase.com) wrote:
>: >: Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>: >: >Alexander Baron  wrote:
>: >: >>In article <4kkn95$rit@wi.combase.com> mgiwer@combase.com "Matt Giwer" writes:

>: >: >Chuck Ferree writes:
>: >: >>
>: >: >> 
>: >: >>>         The assertion was that the immigration laws were anti-semitic because
>: >: >>> "there was no place for them to go."  You have still failed to support
>: >: >>> that contention.

>: >: >Giwer is full of hocky-puke, as usual. There was no place for the Jews to go 
>: >: for one thing, and for another, that MF Hitler and his =
>: >: >gang of turkeys, wouldn't let them go anyplace where they couldn't get their 
>: >: hands on them, because the plan was to rid Europe of al=
>: >: >l Jews once and for all times. Hitler's words.

>: >: 	So because there was no place for them to go (so you say) imigration
>: >: laws were anti-semitic.  Save of course that those of the US were by
>: >: country of origin quotas and had nothing with religion or race or
>: >: whatever.   Both Christian and Jewish Germans faced exactly the same
>: >: US quotas and religion was not a consideration.

>: >BZZZZT!

>: >GIWER IMMIGRATION IGNORANCE ALERT:  The Giwer still has not taken the 
>: >time to pick up a book on immigration history or a book on immigration law.
>: >He still hasn't figured out the difference between asylum law and regular 
>: >immigration law.  He still hasn't bothered to check the Congrssional 
>: >Record to see what Congressmen were saying about preventing Jewish 
>: >immigration.  He can't figure out why there would be a difference under 
>: >asylum policy between Jewish and Chrisitian Germans.

>: 	In other words you can merely claim that any of that means there
>: were such laws.  There were no immigration laws based upon
>: religion and you know it.  And in knowing it you should be honest
>: enough to admit it.  

>: 	But were I to rely upon the Congressional Record I could prove
>: Blacks, Mexicans and Chinese raped white women when they used
>: their favorite drug.  

>: 	After all, it was said by a Congressman of the Newnited States so
>: it has to be true. 

>(Sigh) Well, I can see that attempting to educate Mr. Giwer as to how the 
>immigration sytem worked (and worls) is impossible.  I've stated over and 
>over again that the "laws" (statutes) do not mention religion, and the 
>Guwer knows this.  What he can't figure out is that under the laws, 
>quotas were set every year, but these quotas are not called "laws."  

	Nor did they mention the tribal membership of the person's
mother, yet you still assert the laws were antisemitic.

>Obviously I'm using words too big for Mr. Giwer.  If someone can explain 
>it in 3rd-grade language which he'll understand, give it a try.
>Also, someone should explain to him how the COngressional Record works.  
>he can't seem to distinguish the "one minutes" from the legislative 
>history or administrative concerns.

	In that case, all you might have at best is the opinion of a few
congresscritters.

>: >In other words, the Giwer still doesn't know a thing about immigration, 
>: >but that doesn't stop him from posting the following ignorant tripe:


>: >: 	You posted a clearly false statement and you try to cover it up by
>: >: calling me names.  

>: >Given the next statements, the pot.kettle.black-o-meter is registering 
>: >off the scale.

>: 	If there were honesty here, you would admit there were no such
>: immigration laws.  But you will keep repeating this article of
>: your faith because your faith is more important that the truth.
>: And don't every forget to claim that anyone who points out your
>: faith is nonsense is denying the holocaust.  

>: 	Your faith is not sacred to anyone but you.  

>Mr. Giwer, much as I enjoy your trolling, I might as well signal you now 
>that trying to burn me on immigration law is going to make you look more 
>than a little stupid.  It's already apparent that you know nothing about 
>immigration law.  but what the heck -- if you really feel up to it, go 
>ahead and start by finding where I said immigration "laws" kept the 
>Joooos out.  Then continue your education by looking up what "plenary 
>power" means.

	You did not say what you now claim.  You in fact claimed they
were antisemitic.  You claim remains false.    

>: >: 	It is not surprising from a stupid little shit who has 
>: >not the
>: >: slightest idea how the internet works and indulges in send vague email
>: >: threats which are posted hear for the amusement of the multitude.  

>: >: 	But answer the question.  Can you breath and type at the same time?

>: >Probably not -- I don't know of anyone who can "breath."  Take a deep 
>: >breath, try to breathe, and tell us where you get your immigration 
>: >information.

>: 	And again, if you were honest you would admit that your faith is
>: false.

>If you were honest, you'd stop trolling and find another way to have a life.

	You claim remains false.

>: >: >>A point you may both be missing is that the Jews in Europe and the displaced
>: >: >>persons after the war wanted to go to the Promised Land, ie the United States.

>: >: >Some did, and some want to go to Palestine, which always has 
>: >: been the Jews Promised Land. 

>: >: 	A silly superstition of a primitive religion held by a people who were
>: >: never in Egypt and there was never anything to promise it to them is
>: >: hardly worth interjecting.

>: >Now is this based on personal knowledge?  Do you talk to G-d a lot, Mr. 
>: >Giwer?  That would explain a lot.

>: 	 You get your truths from old tribal myths. I prefer to rely upon
>: archaeology myself.  It is such old news there is even a TV
>: series on it.  

>I know, I've seen your website distortion of the series with Mr. 
>Rhys-Davies.  A 
>very bizarre rendering of what was on the program, to say the least.  I'm 
>curious, though, to hear what other sources you claim besides that one 
>series.

	No evidence in any manner the Hebrews were ever in Egypt has been
known for decades.  This stuff is just the another nail in the
coffin for the stories.  It all gets back to the "eyewitness"
testimony but lack of evidence thing.  That is why the article
makes a point of the positive evidence against the stories.

>: >: >>The Zionists

>: >: >The Zionists didn't run the whole show. Any more than 
>: >: Mother Theresa ran the operation at Bergen-Belsen. Baron, you
>: >: historical ninco=
>: >: >mpoop!

>: >: 	The terrorist Zionists were in fact behind the creation of Israel.  Or
>: >: did you miss that?

>: >Sure,sure, we know how you feel, Mr. Giwer.  And it's too bad, you're 
>: >right; those terrorist FOunding Fathers creating the United States, those 
>: >terrorist Zionists founding Israel;  life sucks when viewed through the 
>: >lens of a simpleton, doesn't it?

>: 	Your ignorance of the difference between terrorist and military
>: is quite confused.  Or can you find a bombing of a civilian
>: target like the King David Hotel done by one of our Founding
>: Fathers?  

>Well, golly, Mr. Happy, strangley enough, one doesn't have to "bomb" to 
>be a terrorist.  And look up the British descriptions of the 
>unconventional tactics used during the Revolution.

	Unconventional tactics are now terrorism?  Quite a reach there.

>Second, I know this is difficult, but Ben-Gurion and Begin were not the 
>same man, and in fact hated each other.  Begin and the Irgun didn't found 
>the state, Mapai did, and the Irgun rank-and-file were out of it until 
>the late 70s.

	Do I take this as an agreement that the Irgun and the Stern Gang
were terrorists?

>: 	BTW:  I have heard the article of faith about that terrorist
>: bombing before.  I know your dogma holds it was really a military
>: target.  And it was OK to do because they were warned.  

>Well, I didn't say that, but I think I'll troll for a day and take you up 
>on it.  Are you suggesting the British Military HQ was not a legitimate 
>target?

	The target was the diplomatic headquarters, as you know.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 07:07:25 PDT 1996
Article: 19041 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:38:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4meu65$et5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>In article <4mcadj$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>>: bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
>>
>>>: >An effort to lose me my job, perhaps?
>>
>>>:      Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor.  Who was it who
>>>: said, Jews never forget?  
>>
>>>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  
>>
>>>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.
>>
>>        If your news feed is failing complain to your provider.

>You are evading, Giwer.

>Where, exactly, has Ken McVay or anyone connected with Nizkor stated that
>it is a purpose of Nizkor to get Les Griswold fired from his job?

>_You_ made the claim, Giwer. Do you have the guts to either back it up or
>admit that you were lying?

	If you have not read it, complain to your provider about your
news feed.  Is that clear enough?

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 07:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 27604 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4meifq$mcn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27604 alt.revisionism:34674 soc.culture.jewish:47499

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4mchdm$af0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Your IF is a really shitty try.  
>>
>>	It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

>    It is not the truth per se which is antisemtic, but the statement.
>Mr. Giwer's inability to understand this subtle difference is far from the
>worst of his problems with the English language.

>    Here's a far better example. 

>    There is a statement in the Talmud which is often quoted by
>antisemites, "When a man has sex with a girl less than three years and a
>day it is nothing...."

>    It is true that this text exists in the Talmud.  The truth - the
>_full_ truth - is not antisemitic.  But the statement is - it was made
>with the intent to incite hatred of Jews.

>    The statement is an antisemitic lie by omission, because the context
>of the discussion is the financial rights of such a girl when she
>eventually marries (she has the same rights as a virgin), not statutory
>rape.  In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult has
>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>the victim's father. The phrase which translates "it is nothing" is an
>idiom meaning "it has no bearing on the matter at hand" - the matter at
>hand being the rights of the girl, _not_ the acceptability of the adult's
>action.

	It doesn't sound much better in its entirety than in the first
part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
harm.  Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
still be paid.

>>	If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>anti-semitic as including the truth.

>    That is correct.  And the same is true of any prejudicial statement. 
>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>from the speaker's own group.

	This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
negative or to become a full fledged apologist.  But then, as
above, it still doesn't look very good.

>>	It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

>    Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise. 

	Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
considered honest.


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 10:32:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47499 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4meifq$mcn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4mchdm$af0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Your IF is a really shitty try.  
>>
>>	It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

>    It is not the truth per se which is antisemtic, but the statement.
>Mr. Giwer's inability to understand this subtle difference is far from the
>worst of his problems with the English language.

>    Here's a far better example. 

>    There is a statement in the Talmud which is often quoted by
>antisemites, "When a man has sex with a girl less than three years and a
>day it is nothing...."

>    It is true that this text exists in the Talmud.  The truth - the
>_full_ truth - is not antisemitic.  But the statement is - it was made
>with the intent to incite hatred of Jews.

>    The statement is an antisemitic lie by omission, because the context
>of the discussion is the financial rights of such a girl when she
>eventually marries (she has the same rights as a virgin), not statutory
>rape.  In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult has
>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>the victim's father. The phrase which translates "it is nothing" is an
>idiom meaning "it has no bearing on the matter at hand" - the matter at
>hand being the rights of the girl, _not_ the acceptability of the adult's
>action.

	It doesn't sound much better in its entirety than in the first
part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
harm.  Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
still be paid.

>>	If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>anti-semitic as including the truth.

>    That is correct.  And the same is true of any prejudicial statement. 
>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>from the speaker's own group.

	This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
negative or to become a full fledged apologist.  But then, as
above, it still doesn't look very good.

>>	It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

>    Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise. 

	Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
considered honest.


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 10:32:27 PDT 1996
Article: 47517 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:50:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>         At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
>> on those caught in the act.  The claim was that they were
>> attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

>As demonstrated on CNN and the DSS All News Channel,  Israelis were 
>utilizing an American designed computerized targeting system that 
>automatically calculated and targetted the sources of rocket fire.  If 
>that means targeting "suspected" locations of Hezbollah, fine.

	A refugee camp was a launch site?  ITN news carried the statement
of the UN man who ran the camp.  First there were ranging shots
and then they opened up on the center of the camp AFTER he had
called to tell them they were targeting a refugee camp.  Now that
is suspicious.	

>>         Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
>> limiting their attacks to only the militant wing.  Either that or
>> they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians.

>The targets were launch sites.  It's really that simple, Matt.

	An ambulance was a launch site?

	A power station was a launch site?

	Any vehicle attempting to cross a bridge was a launch site?

	Just how many thousands of launch sites do you think there were?



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:37:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  >>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  >  
>>  >>  	Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>>  >>  there is none.
>>  
>>  >	You continue to make this assertion.  You have yet to explain why 
>>  >Maloney and Frank, two men convicted on testimony without physical 
>evidence (in 
>>  >Frank's case the prosecutors deliberately did not produce physical evidence 
>that 
>>  >was in their posession) still languish in Graterford State Prison.  Nor have you 
>gotten 
>>  >off your fat duff to explain to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that this 
>miscarriage of 
>>  >justice was perpetrated. 
>>  
>>  	Will you explain why testimony is not given a number and kept in
>>  the property room?

>	This is silly.  It is taken under oath both by the person testifying and the 
>person making a record of it.  I can conceive of no reason to keep it in a 
>"propertry room."  I have never even heard of a Court maintaining a "property 
>room" for evidence.   In every court of which I am aware exhibits admitted into 
>evidence are stored by the clerk (in Pennsylvania "prothonotary") *with* the 
>pleadings and the transcript of testimony (if printed).  It is most certainly given a 
>"number" for the simple reason that it might have to be found later.

	One more time.  Even for those whose only knowledge of such
matters is the OJ trial.  Evidence is something tangible,
something that is not subject to fallable memory or fallable
statement of that memory.  

	If you have been paying attention to the Whitewater trial you
will note that previous statements of witnesses are being used to
impugn the present statements.  It is the transcript of the
previous statements that were introduced into evidence not the
present testimony.  The present testimony can be introduced, as a
transcript, into evidence in an appeal.

	Why do I have to continue to explain this to a professed
attorney?  Does this attorney get an ego boost from the adulation
of those who know less than he does?  

	Are you certain you are practicing or are you just too many years
away from being a trial attorney to remember these details?

>>Testimony is not evidence for the manyth
>>  time.  The details of a particular case do not change testimony
>>  into evidence.

>	And for the manyth time you are wrong.  Please show me a single legal 
>scholar or treatise on evidence (hint: "Wigmore' is the biggie) who says that.

	If you are claiming an appelate court as above ...
  
>>  	And as I said in the beginning, oh killfile challenged one, there
>>  are cases where a conviction can be obtained without evidence.

>	That is a lie.  You stated that eyewitness testimony could only be used 
>to confirm physical evidence.  

	I stated that there were exceptional cases such as a murder
conviction without a body.  

You gave as an example the silly statement that 
>the prosecution cannot prove rape without *physical* evidence of sexual 
>intercourse.  I gave you two example (Frank and Maloney) where there was no 
>physical evidence used and where the defendants were not only convicted but 
>are still in prison.  Further in the Frank case the prosecutor specifically *had* 
>physical evidence and refused to produce it.

	You gave me two cases where there was a serious miscarriage of
justice and most likely the result of an incompetent defense such
as a person who confuses testimony and evidence would provide.


>>  >>  >>	You are a lying little shit and you know it.  You know testimony
>>  >>  >>is not evidence.  
>>  
>>  >	The teaching of every law school and every judge in the United States 
>>  >disagrees with you.  For some reason I do not find that surprising.
>>  
>>  	That is of course testimony is numbered and kept in the property
>>  room.  That is why the oath begins "The evidence you are about to
>>  give."  

>	You have yet to demonstrate that *any* evidence is so used.  Exhibits 
>are marked with a number for identification.  There is, obviously, no reason to do 
>that with the notes of testimony.  Further both exhibits and testimony are stored 
>together by the clerk.  Finally the oath in Pennsylvania is "I swear (affirm) that the 
>*evidence* that I give here today is the truth . . . ."

	You practice in a strange strange state.  Even California says
"testimony" and that is the strangest state I know of.  I have
taken that oath in Virginia three times and it was always
testimony.  Are you certain you are practicing?

>>  	You know, at one time I was told that the new entrants to law
>>  school were given a few lectures on analytic thought and at some
>>  time in their tour had to evidence same.  I am beginning to think
>>  I was mislead.  

>	You were right.  It is you who has no concept of the words you are 
>using

>>  	The marks on test bullet may or may not match those of the bullet
>>  found in the body.  The testimony of the expert may or may not
>>  claim they match.  It is the pictures of the marks that are given
>>  to the jury that is evidence.  The testimony about the marks is
>>  only an opinion.

>	The opinion of an expert *is* evidence.  Period.  In fact, there is a 
>specific charge to the jury in Pennsylvania stating that and another specific 
>charge on how the jury is to evaluate this evidence.  In each case the opinion 
>testimony of the expert is referred to as *evidence.*  While there are literally 
>thousands of references that directly refute you let me give just a few derived 
>from opening the Federal Rules of Evidence at random:

>	Rule 412 (a):  (a/k/a "Rape Shield Law) ". . . .reputation or opinion 
>evidence of the past sexual behavior of the alleged victim . . . . "

>	Rule 412 (b):  ". . . .evidence of a victim's past sexual behavior other 
>than reputation or opinion evidence is also not admissible, unless such evidence 
>other than reputation or opinion evidence . . . ."

>	Rule 608 (a):  "The credibility of a witness may be attacked or 
>supported by evidence in the form of opinion or reputation . . . . "
> 
>	I note that, as usual, the assertions here are ipse dixit statements.  Why 
>don't you open a book ("Wigmore on Evidence" is the standard).

	But of course said "evidence" must be introduced as evidence in a
form that is not merely testimony.  As in prior convictions as
you are well aware.

>	--YFE

>	163 I.Q. points and he still moves his lips when he reads.

	He who would pervert his profession as one of our resident
chemists does is one that would advertise in the local TV guide.	


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians Agree: Goldhagen is a Schmuck
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:44:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4meu5r$199@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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Marty Kelley  wrote:


>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>in David Crosby's septum."
>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_

	Just for the record, you would do better to find a quote from
"Network" which was the first exposition of it and it certainly
started around the time Limbaugh was in diapers or high school at
best.  

	It never ceases to amaze me that skinny little idiots like
Franken think this is a new phenomenon or that people actually
think it is something new.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34666 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer finally wins an argument!
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:48:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4meufs$lfq@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <3177851d.785152@news.pacificnet.net> <21APR199607522012@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4m8psh$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3MAY199607111768@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>>>Tough.  You are still a very odd old man.
>>	What would age matter?

>    You are correct, sir!  He merely should have said, "You are still a
>    very odd man."

	As previously noted, you would have to be a chilld to consider 50
old as that line is common enough to get a laugh in a TV sitcom.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34668 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !Giwerian Scholar
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 07:38:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4l4r1f$iq8@wi.combase.com> <4l6ics$c76@news.enter.net> <4l70ek$m74@wi.combase.com> <4l83ps$j8u@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4mallc$19u@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <2MAY199616092513@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4md8rf$86t@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4mds7j$dsb@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <318aa7d0.6907191@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 20:58:24 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!A fascinating belief that Gould publishes anything but a
>!popularization in his books.  Or would you care to name the
>!textbooks of his you have read?

>Here we see the standard theme that you are some great intellectual
>history and science scholar, it runs through all your crap. In reality
>all you are is a slimey, bitter, lonely, anti-Semitic, right-wing
>gunloon. Its there to see in everything you type pal.


>       I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
>      disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by.
>             ----------------------------------
>      Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg

	Obviously your tooth told you that his popular works were indeed
profound.  

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34674 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27604 alt.revisionism:34674 soc.culture.jewish:47499

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4mchdm$af0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Your IF is a really shitty try.  
>>
>>	It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

>    It is not the truth per se which is antisemtic, but the statement.
>Mr. Giwer's inability to understand this subtle difference is far from the
>worst of his problems with the English language.

>    Here's a far better example. 

>    There is a statement in the Talmud which is often quoted by
>antisemites, "When a man has sex with a girl less than three years and a
>day it is nothing...."

>    It is true that this text exists in the Talmud.  The truth - the
>_full_ truth - is not antisemitic.  But the statement is - it was made
>with the intent to incite hatred of Jews.

>    The statement is an antisemitic lie by omission, because the context
>of the discussion is the financial rights of such a girl when she
>eventually marries (she has the same rights as a virgin), not statutory
>rape.  In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult has
>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>the victim's father. The phrase which translates "it is nothing" is an
>idiom meaning "it has no bearing on the matter at hand" - the matter at
>hand being the rights of the girl, _not_ the acceptability of the adult's
>action.

	It doesn't sound much better in its entirety than in the first
part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
harm.  Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
still be paid.

>>	If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>anti-semitic as including the truth.

>    That is correct.  And the same is true of any prejudicial statement. 
>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>from the speaker's own group.

	This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
negative or to become a full fledged apologist.  But then, as
above, it still doesn't look very good.

>>	It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

>    Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise. 

	Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
considered honest.


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:48 PDT 1996
Article: 34675 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:22:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4meifi$16i@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4m3g13$9pd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m6fkh$p94@news.nyu.edu> <4m954j$l0d@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mdc5a$ma5@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 10:21:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>: >: >Matt Giwer  wrote:

>: >: >#	We know from eyewitness testimony
>: >: >#
>: >: ># 1)	Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20
>: >: ># minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment.

>: >: >No, this is false. Again, you prove that you are, plain and simple,
>: >: >either a drunkard, senile, or simply retarded. The first gassing
>: >: >in Auschwitz took place at the end of 1941. The Treblinka gas chambers
>: >: >began operating after mid-1942.

>: >: 	Here is part of the message posted by good, old OBC with the
>: >: Nizkor reference.  Or are you merely objecting to the date?  

>: >Of course he's objecting to the date; he's objecting to the ORDER you 
>: >placed it in -- that Treblinka was before Auschwitz, your false 
>: >assertion.  He pointed out that Auschwitz was first, as it began in 1941, 
>: >and Treblinka began "after mid-1942."

>: 	It really gets hard to keep the truthes straight here.  Just
>: yesterday I read a long post on how Hoess had selected one gas
>: over the other because of Treblinka's experience with engine
>: exhaust, that it required a bullet every now and then.  What is
>: the truth of the day in this regard?

>Mr. Giwer, given your propenstiy to blame your errors on what some other 
>nameless person supposedly said in some other uncited post, I'll hold off 
>on answering until you show me where this was said.

	Read the fine newsgroup.  
	
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:06:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <4mf33g$ruc@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <316e661d.5389680@news.pacificnet.net> <14APR199607151245@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3173a37c.2359523@news.pacificnet.net> <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com>  <317a3327.790425@news.pacificnet.net>  <317b914c.2907784@news.pacificnet.net>  <4lrlqi$qet@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4m3bg5$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4m70nu$9tv@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mb5ia$g9j@hackberry.zilker.net> <4mc7d4$n4k@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  3:05:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4mc7d4$n4k@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >>      It also means the entire Wannsee conference was absolutely
>> >>unnecessary as it "changed" a policy of extermination in the East
>> >>to a policy of extermination in the east, i.e. no change at all.
>> >>Perhaps it was just one of the excuses for a "professional
>> >>conference" at a tourist attraction.  It is certainly not unknown
>> >>but today we would correctly describe Wannsee as a boondoggle.
>> 
>> >I realize that posting to you is like posting to a huge rock for it
>> >doesn't move and it doesn't take in anything and it has no feelings.
>> >But the purpose, as you have been told before, was to bring together
>> >disparate elements of the Nazi regime to coordinate the murder in a
>> >more systematic way.
>> 
>> As you know from reading it so many times, the original policy
>> PRIOR to the conference was emigration to the east.  

>GIWER HEAD-UP-ASS ALERT: What is most amazing is that Giwer, after being
>told about the killiing operations by the Einsatzgruppen in the East, the
>preparations for Aktion Reinhard, the Wetzel-Lohse letter, Ho"ss's
>memoirs, and Eichmann's interrogation- all of which indicate that either
>systematic killing took place or was in planning prior to the Wannsee
>Conference -continues to bleat that the "official" Nazi policy in regards
>to the Jewish Question prior to the Wannsee Conference was merely
>"emigration to the east." Truly it is hard to imagine a person being this
>dense. Mr. Curtis's observation that Giwer is like a huge rock is quite
>apropo, as a huge rock approaches Giwer's intellectual density. 

	You refuse to answer questions.

>> You also know there is no evidence in the document of your claim to
>> coordination as there is no reference to disparate policies prior
>> to the conference.  

>GIWER LYING-THROUGH-HIS-TEETH ALERT: Of course, Giwer has been explicity
>told, many times by different people, of the killiing operations by the
>Einsatzgruppen in the East, the preparations for Aktion Reinhard, the
>Wetzel-Lohse letter, Ho"ss's memoirs, and Eichmann's interrogation- all of
>which indicate that either systematic killing took place or was in
>planning prior to the Wannsee Conference.

	You refuse to answer questions.

>> Whatever I might have been told was a obvious confabulation that
>> is contrary to the contents of the document as are your claims of
>> coordination which are not contained in the document. 

>GIWER LYING-THROUGH-HIS-TEETH ALERT: What Giwer WAS told many times by
>different people, of the killiing operations by the Einsatzgruppen in the
>East, the preparations for Aktion Reinhard, the Wetzel-Lohse letter,
>Ho"ss's memoirs, and Eichmann's interrogation- all of which indicate that
>either systematic killing took place or was in planning prior to the
>Wannsee Conference. The only "confabulation" here is on Giwer's part in
>regards to the Wannsee Protocol. 

	You refuse to answer questions.

>> Now if you willing to post further documentation of the purpose
>> of the conference then I am willing to read it.  Until you do, it
>> is only your fantasy that invents what you are claiming.

>GIWER-TROLL ALERT: Giwer's feigned "willingness" to weigh the evidence
>belays that, in fact, he has been quite unwilling of any such thing. Many
>posts, to which Giwer has "responded," have explicity dealt with the
>killiing operations by the Einsatzgruppen in the East, the preparations
>for Aktion Reinhard, the Wetzel-Lohse letter, Ho"ss's memoirs, and
>Eichmann's interrogation. All of which indicate that either systematic
>killing took place or was in planning prior to the Wannsee Conference. All
>of which Giwer ignored soley on the basis of his dogmatic and patently
>absurd, not to mention unsupported,  "interpretation" of the Wansee
>Protocol. 

	You refuse to answer questions.

>Mark

>posted/e-mailed to Mr. Curtis and Matt "Megalith" Giwer

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	You know he said the life expectancy was seven years.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:09:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4mf384$ov1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4m9fk4$sl6@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4mbcd9$fi3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  3:07:32 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Rest assured, folks: no matter what he's talking about, Giwer
>## will make a fool of himself.

># And the source of your information that the T-16 is a heavy
># bomber in addition to the source of your information as to the
># countries that have them? 

>Are you claiming that:

>1) The Tupolev T-16 is not a heavy bomber?

>2) No Arab country in the mideast ever had T-16's?

>Please answer yes or no.

>You may consult the Egyptian and Iraqi airforce before you respond.

	Buzzer there.  

	I asked for the source of the information that is was a heavy
bomber and the source of the information on the countries that
owned them.   Obviously YOU have that information as you posted
to the contrary.  

	So what is the point to this game?  Another pretend piece of shit
like Green the Chemist?

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:18:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <4mf3s6$evg@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <4lrrd9$nu@dfw-ixne <4m0r8b$vg@news.nyu.edu> <4m1gfc$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m959p$h8k@access5.digex.net> <4mbc60$fi3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  3:18:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Thu, 2 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> 
>> >    Rauff was deposed in 1972 in Chile (which makes it hard to imagine
>> >what pressure could be brought to bear on him) and confirmed receiving
>> >correspondence from Becker about gassing vans. 
>> 
>> >        Es ist richtig, dass ich "uber den Einsatz der Gaswagen etwas von
>> >        Becker bekommen habe. Ich selbst hatte Becker  gesagt, mir einen
>> >        entsprechenden Bericht zuzusenden.
>> 
>> >   My translation:
>> 
>> >    "It is correct, that I received something from Becker about the
>> >introduction of the gassing van.  I myself had told Becker to send me a
>> >corresponding report."
>> 
>> 	Gaswagen is a noun.  Your translation is like airplane into
>> airing plane.  

>Ever hear of a participial adjective, Mr. Giwer?  

	Not in translation, Herr Idiot.

	But it is good to see that you believe Herr Stein can not defend
himself but that you, without any knowledge of the language can
defend him.

I wear running shoes, 
>the Nazis used gassing vans.  If you prefer the clumsier English 
>translation "Gas Van" (or even worse, "gastruck") that's fine, but it has no 
>bearing on the authenticity of the document Mr. Stein cites. 

>Have you ever read Mark Twain's hilarious essay, "The Awful German 
>Language"? I recommend it highhly.

	Golly cheeze whiz, Batcritter.  A parody upon English is still
believed to be about the German language.  I thought the
curricula had changed by now.
 
>> >URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rauff.walter/
>> >Walter-Rauff.1972.txt
>> 
>> >    Physical evidence corroborated by eyewitness testimony is what I
>> >believe you asked for.  Now you have it.
 
>> 	I have evidence of a very poor translation.  But I am certain our
>> resident expert in German will swear to your translation.

>What, pray tell, is the difference between "Gas Van" and "Gassing Van"?  

	I would have thought it would be in line with Volkswagen and
Volksing Wagen.  Are you really as dumb as you pretend?

>(Keep in mind, of course, that translation using the participial adjective 
>avoids a possible ambiguity in English, where "gas van" could conceivably 
>refer to a gasoline tanker.  In German, no such ambiguity is possible, since
>"gasoline" is "das Benzin")

	Are you the resident German expert or can he not speak for
himself either.  

	A peopling wagon indeed.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34690 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:35:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4mducf$jtt@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4kv5gk$1m30@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4kvb87$hpo@wi.combase.com> <4l3dvq$f2i@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4l3n28$so3@wi.combase.com> <4l5m9o$4u@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4l684p$a71@wi.combase.com> <4lb3j8$1le0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4lq1hv$4k4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m16h0$1cug@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4m1gjo$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31854e14.67384384@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <318622A8.64D@nt.com> <31883aff.9899431@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4m9u71$ags@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <318a0a3a.44775711@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  4:38:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Thu, 02 May 1996 09:10:32 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>What a yuck you are.

>!You and OBC have so much in common you should get together and
>!compare notes.  You two could coordinate your attacks better that
>!way.

>What is the OBC? 
>There is no conspiracy Giwer, its just that you are a godawful human
>being and non-godawful human beings let you have it on occasion.

>Whats so absurd about all this is that both you and Grynspan put your
>lies up against the truth, get caught over and over again, and then
>squawk like the little piggies you are about it.


>       I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
>      disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by.
>             ----------------------------------
>      Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg

	When are you going to carry the logo that will proudly display
that your site was given the "hate site of the week" award?




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34691 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas Chambers, Air Raid Shelters & Air-Tight Doors
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:01:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4mf6cl$gbf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4lre66$7j4@panix2.panix.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  4:01:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>> Hence, I will assume that we've 
>> found at least a few air raid shelters with these air-tight doors.  If 
>> you can provide some examples of this practice, I would greatly 
>> appreciate it.

>Don't forget showerheads.  I'd like to see an example of an air-raid
>shelter with seventeen showerheads, please, Mr. Raven.

>Dare I say it...?

>"Show me or draw me an air-raid shelter with..."

>Naw.  Never mind.

>Posted/emailed to Mr. Filan and Mr. Raven.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/


                         Email: jamie@voyager.net 



Hello! I'm a 25-year-old computer programmer living in Michigan. 

	  A child like you has somthing to say?

> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.

	Right.   A "do what you are told" kid like you has something to
say.


=========




Objective

I am seeking a position with a committed group doing exciting
work on the Macintosh and/or the
Internet. 



Education

Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 

    B.S., Computer Science, September 1991 
    Advisor: Richard Carpenter 
    Senior Thesis (Honors): The Making of Capek, an Interactive C
Tutorial 

        Capek is a tool that helps teach the C language: the user
writes programs
        to control robots in an integrated environment. The
framework of the
        program, including the user interface for code-management
and the
        arcadelike graphics code, was completed. The compiler and
linker, which
        translated C into a custom RPN "machine language," were
not coded, but
        were designed in great detail: all major data structures
were defined, and
        the algorithm for each pass was carefully spelled out.
The interpretor for the
        custom language was neither designed nor coded. 

        The invented machine language bears some similarity to
Java bytecode. 



Programming Experience

    Developed ten commercial Macintosh applications, written in
THINK C for Lawrence
    Productions Inc.: 

           McGee (September 1989) 
           Katie's Farm (February 1990) 
           McGee at the Fun Fair (September 1990) 
           Nigel's World (December 1991) 
           The Lost Tribe (January 1993) 
           Mind Castle: Spell of the Word Wizard (July 1993) 
           Nigel's World CD version (January 1994) 
           Discovering America (March 1994) 
           McGee School Days (October 1994) 
           English Mechanics (February 1995) 

    Developed Laconic, an in-house application for Lawrence
Productions Inc. Laconic is used
    to build animation sequences from static graphics using a
compiled animation-control
    language. Laconic uses the same graphics framework as
commercial applications; it and the
    framework were developed simultaneously in early 1992, and
continued to evolve until early
    1995. 

    Complete understanding of the C language, thanks in part to
the development of my senior
    thesis. Fifteen years of experience with Pascal (took Pascal
course in fourth grade).
    Fourteen years of experience with various assembler languages
(first assembler
    language class, PDP-11 assembler, in fifth grade). Nine years
of Mac programming. Six
    years of professional Mac programming. Five years of
object-oriented programming in
    THINK C. Familiarity with 680x0 assembler; "read-only"
knowledge of PowerPC
    assembler. Some experience with perl (see my CPAN directory).
Ability to learn any
    computer language quickly. 

    Sample code is available upon request. 



Other Experience

    Internet. I've worked extensively on the Internet since 1991.
In particular, I've volunteered
    thousands of hours toward combatting net.hatred with the
Nizkor Project -- in researching and
    writing about Holocaust-denial, and in designing and coding
perl scripts for that web site. 
    With Jason Bobier, I conducted extensive research into the
technical and financial details of
    starting own Internet Service Provider business. 

    Sound. Understanding of music theory and the physics of
sound. Eight years classical piano
    lessons; self-taught blues/jazz improvisation. Understanding
and experience with digital
    sound reproduction on several platforms, including of course
the Macintosh. 

    Theatre. Self-taught Technical Director and Stage Manager for
the Greedy Id Players, a
    small local performance art company. 



References

    Tim Knapper 
    Vice President of Marketing 
    Lawrence Productions Inc. 
    1800 S 35th St 
    Galesburg, MI 49053-9687 
    Voice: (616) 665-7075 
    email: tknapper@aol.com 

    Mr. Knapper was my supervisor at Lawrence Productions,
1991-95. 

    Richard Carpenter 
    Dept. of Computer Science 
    Kalamazoo College 
    1200 Academy 
    Kalamazoo, MI 49006 
    Voice: (616) 337-7060 
    email: carpente@kzoo.edu 

    Mr. Carpenter was my advisor for my senior thesis, Winter
1990-91. 

    Ken McVay 
    address omitted for safety reasons 
    Vancouver, B.C. 
    Canada 
    email: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 

    Mr. McVay has, more than anyone else, organized the anti-Nazi
movement on the Internet.
    I've worked with him a great deal since early 1992, though
we've only met once (in late 1995).



Jamie McCarthy 
jamie@voyager.net 

	Jamies pathetic little resume is as a hired hand to Nizkor at
best.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:50:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:34694 soc.culture.jewish:47517 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19051 soc.culture.israel:32491

Roger Froikin  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>         At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
>> on those caught in the act.  The claim was that they were
>> attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

>As demonstrated on CNN and the DSS All News Channel,  Israelis were 
>utilizing an American designed computerized targeting system that 
>automatically calculated and targetted the sources of rocket fire.  If 
>that means targeting "suspected" locations of Hezbollah, fine.

	A refugee camp was a launch site?  ITN news carried the statement
of the UN man who ran the camp.  First there were ranging shots
and then they opened up on the center of the camp AFTER he had
called to tell them they were targeting a refugee camp.  Now that
is suspicious.	

>>         Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
>> limiting their attacks to only the militant wing.  Either that or
>> they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians.

>The targets were launch sites.  It's really that simple, Matt.

	An ambulance was a launch site?

	A power station was a launch site?

	Any vehicle attempting to cross a bridge was a launch site?

	Just how many thousands of launch sites do you think there were?



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34695 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More worthless eyewitness testimony from Mr. Giwer
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:14:04 GMT
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mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4lvfqp$be6@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4lcm3v$961@wi.combase.com>, 
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote [to Ken McVay]:
>>>>	You posted the eyewitness testimony proving that engine exhaust and
>>>>cyanide are equally deadly.
>>
>>>    Actually, Mr. Giwer is misrepresenting what he has read (as usual). 
>>>In the case of the engine exhaust, the witness gave a time range and
>>>therefore was clearly estimating.  And the witness seems to be lower than
>>>any other eyewitness estimate I've seen - even Holocaust denier Friedrich
>>>Berg uses thirty minutes as the standard for engine gassing.
>>
>>	Then you are denying that old OBC himeself did not post that trut
>>truth.

>    He posted a testimony from a witness.  I do not deny that he posted
>it.  What I deny is that the witness's statement about time should be
>taken as exact, since it was given as a range.  It was clearly an
>estimate, and as such should be regarded as subject to the normal range of
>error. 

	Your claim that an eyewitness can be lying is a first.  But if
you accept the "error" you have also accepted the impossibility
of the 1000 per hour throughput.  You can not have it both ways. 

>    Of course, only deniers and trolls pretend that one must either accept
>every word of a testimony as absolutely true, or reject every bit of it as
>unreliable.  People are much better about remembering the simple fact of
>an event than the details about it.  Many people, myself included, can be
>off by a factor of two or more when estimating physical size, distance,
>time, crowd size, etc.

	You are the one with the 1000 per hour problem, not me.

>>>    Furthermore, I do not recall seeing a claim that it took fifteen
>>>minutes for anyone to _die_ from cyanide.  
>>
>>	Then you have never read the Nizkor FAQ as I read and have posted
>>here in support of what I have stated.

>    I did not write precisely enough: Mr. Giwer is technically right, the
>first experimental gassing did not use enough Zyklon for the area, and it
>did take longer.  

	I did not say it was right or wrong.  I only pointed to the
bullshit carried on Nizkor that is gospel here.

But then, I expect Mr. Giwer knows it is certainly
>possible to adjust concentrations so that, e.g., someone will die more
>quickly from a 6% CO atmosphere than from a 10ppm cyanide atmosphere.

	I did not konw that was possible.  Please explaing the mechanism
for doing so.  Please do so or admit you are lying.

>However, the normal expectation (were Mr. Giwer not a troll) is that Mr. 
>Giwer's claim should be read as referring to the _normal_ (i.e.,
>non-experimental)  gassing operations.  Please amend my statement to read
>this way, which is what I intended.

	As you know everything you are making up as you go along is what
you are making up as you go along.  	

>    With that amendment, I am still not aware of a testimony which clearly
>and unequivocally states that people survived over ten minutes after the
>dropping of Zyklon in a normal gassing operation.  

	That is only a statement that you have not read the posts here or
that you are willing to lie about them.

The closest thing to it
>is Boeck's testimony which says "about ten minutes," but even that is
>ambiguous as he does not give a clear starting point for this timing; the
>preceding sentence in his testimony cites not the pouring of the Zyklon
>but rather the SS man climbing to the roof.  What amount of time elapsed
>between the climb and the pour is not stated. 

	You are clearly not following the NG close enough to be a
participant.  

>>Mr. Giwer had previously, for
>>>example, blatantly misread a testimony about the amount of time that
>>>elapsed until the doors were _opened_ as being the amount of time to took
>>>the people to die.  
>>
>>	As you know, I have never posted one word about any door opening
>>time, AS YOU KNOW.

>    Mr. Giwer did not author the words himself, true, but then I never
>said he had.  All I said was that he misread those words as saying
>something about the length of time that screaming went on.  And he most
>certainly did _post_ someone else's words about a door opening time.
>(Technically, the quote said the _chamber_ was opened, but only a troll
>would claim that opening a gas chamber does not clearly imply the opening
>of some sort of door.)

	You clearly do not read enough of this conference to be a
participant.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34696 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:25:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>
>>>[To jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt)]

>>>In typical Giwerian fashion, he ignored Mr. Litt's response,
>>>and posted:

>>># When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
>>># on you parents, get back to me.  In the mean time, get back to
>>># your books to help your GPA.  You are going to need it in the
>>># real world.

>>>Anyone ever note that this has become Giwer's more-or-less
>>>standard reply?

>>>That old inferiority complex is really kicking.

>>	To whom?  People with majors only a touch above basket weaving?  

>STUPID TROLL ALERT:  Giwerundian translation:  People who study
>law know nothing about law.  Those who study chemistry know nothing
>about chemistry.  And only an ignorant, self-satisfied illogical
>troll who claims to have a 30 year old degree in physical sciences
>could possibly know anything about history.

	Why you amen corner folks would believe in clearly demonstrated
liars is beyond me.  

	Even you should know that you have never heard an oath saying
that the "EVIDENCE I am about to give" is what a witness swears
to.  Yet our residence dillitante has made the claim that is the
oath in Pennsylvania.  

	You know that the .sig of our resident chemist has been changed
so as not to implicate the university he claims assosiation with
AFTER his bone burning and HCN claims were dealt with.  And of
course you know his assertion 750 calories from 1/10 gram of
organics has not been answered.  

	An honest person such as your self should realize you are being
deceived. 

	But of course you want to be decieved as it supports your
beliefs.   


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34697 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:38:48 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4m13oq$6p9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:

>>>## "Cool off"? How much? 
>>
>>># Our resident chemist is going to post the equations on that real
>>># soon now.  

>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer missed this post.  I leave out only what can be done
>by someone with a reasonable high school education:

	I may have missed the equations but there are none here, in
addition to your bone burning and HCN lies.

>We know the evaporation rate of HCN is very fast.  

	We know nothing without a number readily available to any real
chemist.

Even DT has
>acknowleged this fact.  His worry seems to be that since some
>of the HCN freezes that perhaps its rate of evaporation decreases
>substantially enough that one would have to add an unrealistically
>large amount of HCN to get enough to evaporate fast enough.

	More bullshit.  The freezing point can not be acheived by
evaporation.

>(Others have pointed out that the chambers were heated, that large
>amounts were used and that the Sonderkommando wore gas mask.)

>Notwithstanding the fact that even frozen HCN has a significant vapor
>pressure I wondered about how much of the HCN could freeze.  It turns
>out that atleast 25% of the HCN added cannot possibly freeze and that
>is an underestimate because I assumed that all the heat required for
>vaporization came from liquid HCN initially at 0 C.  I leave the
>calculation as an exercise for your edification (I can post it if
>anyone has doubts).

>The heat of vaporization of HCN is 6.03 kcal/mol (at 25 C) [I assume
>	it's roughly constant over the T range of interest.]
>The heat of fusion of HCN is       1.72 kcal/mol (at -13.2 C)
>Specific Heat of HCN              16.94 cal/molC (at 16.9 C) [I assume
>	it's roughly constant.]

	Nothing here answers the mail but your fellow and equallly
ignorant holohuggers will claim that one of these numbers is
vapor pressure.   You are clearly a liar.

>So HCN evaporates rapidly.  25% cannot freeze.  Even the HCN that
>freezes has a significant vapor pressure.  The gaseous HCN diffuses
>quickly enough that toxic concentrations are reached well before
>15 minutes. The Nazis could have used well in excess of what
>was necessary without practical problems.  All of these facts
>underestimate the concentration because the chambers were heated.

>I can of course repost my diffusion post if necessary.

	I suggest that you wait until you get into your second year of
chemistry that they refrane from further posting.  But put back
your original sig of PhD candidate so I can call and verify it.

>>>## And, anyway, the vapor pressure is still
>>>## way above the lethal concentration, even at low temperatures.
>>
>>># Vapor pressure is not concentration.  It is not clear what you
>>># are trying to say nor how you might know it.

>ERROR ALERT:  vapor pressure is concentration in convenenient units.
>Now one should be careful to distinguish between equilibrium vapor
>pressure and vapor pressure.

	Yes, PhD candidate, what is the vapor pressure and what are the
equations?  Of  course not.  You never understood what I meant by
P Chem in the first place.  You are clearly a fraud.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:39:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:  

>: 	The problem on the internet is that so many undergraduates
>: receive their first exposure to public exchanges and think their
>: high school routines are clever in an adult forum.  

>I'm sorry Mr. Giwer, but I think you've stuck your foot in your mouth yet
>again.  Are there any undergraduates here?


	All the one who have said they are. 

	Read the fine newsgroup.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34699 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:44:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31865c54.3304146@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>> On 30 Apr 1996 02:35:37 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> 
>> >>   Greg Raven  writes:
>> >>
>> >>By the way, Mr. Ferree, do you know a Homer G. Richey? He visited Dachau, 
>> >too, after the way, and he wrote:
>> >  
>> >>"I was, toward the end of World War II, an army captain on the staff of 
>> >>Ambassador Robert Murphy, Political Adviser to Gen. Eisenhower. I was at 
>> >>Dachau about a month after it  has been liberated, either the end of May 
>> >>or the beginning of June, 1945. There was no gas chamber there, nor did I
>> >>see one in the process of construction."
>> >
>> >By the way, Mr. Raven, have you ever heard of Charles Larson, M.D.?  
>> >He was the forensic pathologist sent to examine conditions at Dachau.  
>> >He reported to Gen. Eisenhower that a "cyanide chamber" was used at 
>> >Dachau, principally to dispose of invalids.
>> 
>> This is not the same Charles Larson whom the revisionists claim did an
>> autopsy every fifteen minutes, 24 hours a day, and about whom they say
>> found no evidence of gassing, is it?

>Indeed it is. 

>Mr. Raven, in article ,
>posted O'Keefe's piece of denier propaganda: _The "Liberation of the
>Camps"_, where   O'Keefe, referencing Dr. Larson, claimed that there: 

>"...never was a case of poison gas uncovered [at Dachau]... Neither Dr.
>Larson nor any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any
>Holocaust historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas,
>whether Zyklon-B or any other variety."

>Source:

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/l/larson.charles.dr/liberation-of-camps


>How odd. According to Dr. Larson:

>"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another.
>However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those
>prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with
>them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however,
>they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where
>the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then
>ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped
>in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the
>bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened
>to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly
>and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles.
>But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally
>examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities
>were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was
>imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or
>function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi
>called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting
>well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination
>was the answer." (_Crime Doctor_, p.61.)

>I do believe this is called "lying through one's teeth." The fact is that
>Dr. Larson _clearly_ intimates that prisoners in Dachau _were_ killed with
>cyanide gas. In fact, by his statement: "...in my opinion, only relatively
>few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this
>manner" it is implicit that Dr. Larson, in his capacity as a U.S. Army
>_forensic_ pathologist (the only in Europe, lest we forget), _determined_
>that prisoners had died from cyanide poisoning. (Note that it would be
>unsurprising that ³relatively few of the inmates² would have been found to
>have died from gassing as one could assume they would have been cremated
>fairly soon afterwards.)

	I read only hearsay at best even if it was under oath.  

	Where do you see evidence?

	Where are his pathology reports?  They would be admissable as
evidence.   Or particular interest will be how he determined
cyanide poisoning from ashes.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 12:06:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:05:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4medr4$j7h@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: u.edu> <4m8psh$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution: 

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: >: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>: >: >: >In article <3177851d.785152@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>: >: >: >>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >: >: >> 
>: >: >: >>	Terrible thing. Moran forgot to include one other little news
>: >: >: >>bit. Reported in the N.Y. Times, was an incident in a New Hampshire
>: >: >: >>High school that happened around Christmas time two years ago.
>: >: >: >>	What happened was a group of kids were singing Christmas
>: >: >: >>carols in the hallway when a Jewish girl came up and ask them to stop.
>: >: >: >>The report didn't say on what grounds the girl based her request, but
>: >: >: >>it was probably something she learned at home or ethnically nearby.
>: >: >: >>Whatever it was, the kids didn't like it and roughed her up. The
>: >: >: >>report mentioned how many kids were enrolled in the school, citing
>: >: >: >>2500, of which 15 were Jewish.
>: >: >: >>	No doubt the whole school was abuzz with the whole affair. 
>: >: >: >>	Talk about mass alienation and a quick lesson for the 2,485.  

>: >: >: >    I am curious, Tom.  Seeing that you have - or will have - Jewish
>: >: >: >    grandkids, how will you react when they come home from school having
>: >: >: >    been roughed up?  How will you react when they come home crying after
>: >: >: >    Milt Kleim, Jr. tells them that he will make sure to get them during
>: >: >: >    the next Holocaust?  Just wondering how all this will effect you now
>: >: >: >    that you have a Jewish family yourself?

>: >: >: 	Perhaps his grandchildren will be polite and not do such things?

>: >: >You think it's polite for little kids to refrain from crying after being 
>: >: >told they're going to be gotten in the next Holocaust?  Or after being 
>: >: >roughed up?  Weird.

>: >: 	You are so old you have forgotten childhood?  Have you honestly
>: >: forgotten that any reason and no reason could result in the same
>: >: thing?

>: >Nope.  But the fact is, Mr. "I'm going to try and change the subject" 
>: >Giwer, this is no a case of being beat up for no reason. This was a 
>: >question of whether Moran would condone his grandkids being beat up for 
>: >being Jewish, and whether they would come home crying.  You stated you 
>: >didn't think it would be ppolite for them to come home crying.  You aew a 
>: >very odd old man.

>: 	Changing the subject from what children do to each other to what?

>GIWER TROLL ALERT:  I don't have the need to explain this for a second 
>time.  Mr. GIwer is just trollign especially badly today.
>Everyone can just read the above passage, where the Giwer thinks it would 
>be polite for children beat up by other kids (for their Judaism) to 
>refrain from crying.

	Without going back to check, I think I pointed out that children
would engage in such behavior for any reason or for no reason.
You do appear to have forgotten all about that.  Perhaps when you
have children of your own you will be reminded.

>: >: 	Excuse me but I can not believe your sincerity in this matter.

>: >Tough.  YOu are still a very odd old man.

>: 	What would age matter?

>Senility, old man.  Senility.

	50?  You must be very, very young to consider that old.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 15:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 34744 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!news.aimnet.com!viper.inow.com!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews subvert militias
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:19:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4mdt6k$jp9@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  4:18:12 PM CDT 1996
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4m1fkk$t3n@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) said:


>>>>	I am ready to file the complaint.  Are you and your company and your job
>>>>ready to answer for it?

>>>This is starting to get silly.  I have never called you in my life, I have
>>>never heard of Internet Direct, and I can tell you that you don't have to
>>>worry about whether I am ready to answer *your* "complaint".  You should
>be
>>>worrying about the complaint I will be filing.

>>	That is not what you posted in this conference.  And I have
>>nearly the same words from you by email.   

>Another lie.  I have never e-mailed the Giwer-troll in my life.

>>	You are very stupid.   

>>>Now, as I said in another post, you will either withdraw this rubbish, or
>>>you will suffer the consequences.

>>	I am quaking.  Another sillly threat.  Don't you folks ever learn how
>>silly you look?

>Fine, Mr. Giwer.  Just don't say you weren't warned.

	A feeling of terror arises as though I were studying in the
Miskatonic library at midnight.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 17:45:35 PDT 1996
Article: 34772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:26:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4mef4c$6fn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  	A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status.  It is
>>  unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>>  involved with secular history.  But if it is religious history
>>  that makes Nizkor a religious site. 

>	I do not know Canadian tax law.  You are dead wrong (as usual) 
>about U.S. law.  A 501(c)(3) entity -- the tax exemption you are referring to, can 
>be obtained by *any* literary or educational organization.  The last twenty Wolrd 
>Science Fiction Conventions have qualified as tax exempt organizations.  Or do 
>you consider them religious organizations?

	It appears you are confusing non-profit with tax exempt with the
ability to issue receipts that lower one's tax liability.  Or
have I forgotten to deduct my world con memberships?


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 19:54:18 PDT 1996
Article: 34780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:50:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4me69j$nh7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>in World War Two.  But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>much for me.  How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>this?

	If you had been here the last time this truth came under scrutiny
a genuine, honest, for real chemist divert attention from it with
a misleading issue of whether or not bones burn.  

	If you lived in Florida you would find a similar phenomenon, when
the Spanish community gets a rumor started, either seeing the
Virgin Mary or the currently popular goatsucker that just swam
over from Puerto Rico.

	It is an act of faith, a religious activity, to believe
everything that is said no matter how ridiculous, foolish, or
impossible.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 19:54:19 PDT 1996
Article: 34784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:14:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 132
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03  9:17:22 PM CDT 1996
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: 1@rbi142.rbi.com> <4mc983$obd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution: 

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>: >In article <4m8hte$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>: >[snip]


>: >> But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
>: >> punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
>: >> Auschwitz?  

>: >GIWER STUPIDITY ALERT: If Giwer would stop acting like an unwashed pig and
>: >instead read what was posted, he would have realized that his question was
>: >already answered in my origional post! To whit:

>: >...Taylor continues (_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.54-55, p.54fn):

>: >   The defendants would compromise "a large number of individuals and 
>: >   officials who were in authority in the government, in the military 
>: >   establishment, including the General Staff, and in the financial,
>: >   industrial, and economic life of Germany who by all civilized standards
>: >   are provable to be common criminals." The charges against them would be:
>: > 
>: >      (a) Atrocities and offenses against persons or property constituting 
>: >      violations of International Law, including the laws, rules, and customs
>: >      of land and naval warfare.....

>: >      (b) Atrocities and offenses, including atrocities and persecutions on 
>: >      racial and religious grounds, committed since 1933. This is only to
>: >      recognize the principles of criminal law as they are generally observed
>: >      in civilized states. These principles have been assimilated as a part
>: >      of the International Law at least since 1907....*

>: >...In regards to points (a) and (b) above, this was in reference to the 
>: >Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Law and Customs of War on Land
>: >(1907). Specifically, in regards to German violations of this treaty,
>: >concerning occupied territories, some of the applicable articles in the
>: >annex to the Covention (_The Laws of War_, ISBN 0-679-73712-X; pp.232-233)
>: >are:

>: >   Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed
>: >   into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all measures in his
>: >   power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety,
>: >   while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in forces in the
>: >   country.

>: >   Article 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied 
>: >   territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power.

>: >   Article 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and 
>: >   private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, 
>: >   must be respected.

>: >   Article 47. Pillage is formally forbidden.

>: >   Article 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be 
>: >   inflicted upon the population on accounts of the acts of individuals
>: >   for which they cannot be regarded s jointly and severally responsible.

>: >Said articles of the Hague Convention, their violation by Germany, and the
>: >bringing of charges against Nazi officials and individuals, have nothing
>: >to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany was a signatory
>: >_prior_ to the violations that were committed.

>: >> Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial
>: >> an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of
>: >> justice.

>: >REALITY CHECK: In truth Giwer has severe problems in dealing with reality.
>: >It also appears, given his lack of critical faculties, that he probably
>: >has problems dressing himself. Perhaps rooting around in pig-shit IS the
>: >best he can do!

>: 	You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to
>: individuals as I have noted many times.  Please be specific in
>: your response, idiot.

>Well, this has been said before, but THERE AREN'T ANY SPECIFIC PENALITIES 
>PROCSCRIBED, IDIOT!  There, I feel better now after using that 
>unemotional "writing style."  Anyhow, this is true for International 
>Criminal Law in general.

	The is "prEscribed."  It is now good to see you agree the
penalties were created after the fact of the crimes.  

>I would suggest Mr. GIwer needs to study to understand this -- the 
>sentence is not always set in the same statute that sets out the law.  In 
>fact, in internaitonal law, this is definitely the case.  The Genocide 
>OCnvention doesn't set out the specific penalties.  DOes the GIwer think 
>that this therefore doesn't criminalize Genocide?

	I have maintained all along that they were punished under laws
that were written after the fact.  So many have asserted they
were not.  

>Part of the reason for this is the varying methods of enforcement of this 
>kind of law -- int'l tribunals, national courts, etc.  
>Therefore, unless the Giwer can explain why the statute has to set out 
>the specific sanctions, I think this has been repeated enough.

	Now that we have agreement they were punished under ex post facto
laws we do not need to go any further.

>: >posted-e-mailed to Matt "I like pig-shit!" Giwer

>: 	Unsolicited email is a form of harrassment for which this
>: conference in famous.  It is based upon the ancient history that
>: commercial providers charge by the email.  Many children still
>: believe that is true.

>PLease don't start this again, Mr. GIwer.  I still have copies of the 3 
>unsolicited e-mails you sent me, and you looked like enough of an idiot 
>the first time I posted them.

	I got almost 40 identical 11k ones today from the same person at
idirect.com.  I would think you could tell the difference.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 21:01:04 PDT 1996
Article: 34815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:55:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <4mdvei$nqe@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>: >In article <4lrvc5$4qe@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>: >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: >> 
>: >> >In article <4lbjab$jhg@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
>: >wrote:
>: >> 
>: >> 
>: >> >Again, in regards to the Kellog-Briand Pact, its violation by Germany, and
>: >> >the bringing of charges against Nazi officials for waging aggressive
>: >> >warfare, has little to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany
>: >> >was a signatory _prior_ to the violations that were committed.
>: >> 
>: >> This is where the discussion had progressed when it was dropped
>: >> and you folks forgot all about it.  
>: >> 
>: >> It was at this point I noted that laws carry a penalty section
>: >> also.  I further noted there were no penalties to individuals for
>: >> violations of these treaties nor was there an enforcement
>: >> organization established by these treaties.  

>: >REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems blissfully unawares that the issue of ex post
>: >facto laws derive from the maxim _Nulla poeans sine lege_, or "No
>: >punishment without law." This, of course, is not the same thing as a law
>: >or, this particlar case, international treaty, without a specified
>: >punishment. 

>: >To reiterate, as Giwer did not care to address the specifics of my
>: >previous post: 

>: >To clarify the issue once more, it is worth noting that the issue of the
>: >"ex post facto problem" arose in the context of the waging of aggressive
>: >warfare. Telford Taylor discussed the "ex post facto problem" as follows
>: >(_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.50-51, p.51fn):

>: >   In view of the criminal charges listed in the draft executive agreement,
>: >   I had of course been hearing much discussion of the question of whether
>: >   the launching of aggressive war could legitimately be treated as an 
>: >   international-law crime. I wrote:

>: 	This is an awfully long post and of course I have saved it for
>: reference.  

>: 	But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
>: punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
>: Auschwitz?  

>Start with the Hague Regulations of 1907, Mr. Giwer.  These laws were 
>applied as customary norms at Nuremberg, _precisely_ because the IMT did 
>not wish to apply laws in violation of nulla poeans sine lege.  Can you 
>tell me which part of the Hague Regulaitons were applied in a manner that 
>was ex post facto?

>The only real issue of ex post facto at Nuremberg was one particular 
>charge -- waging of agressive war, which I think even you will agree was 
>not factually based on the holocaust, but was based on Germnay's 
>invasions of numerous nations.  The Holocaust was dealt with in the war 
>crimes and Crimes Against Humanity charges.

	To bring you back to the subject, what were the punishments
against individuals prescribed by these agreements?  Who was to
apply these penalties?  

>: 	Now do not get me wrong.  I have no problem with a speedy trial
>: an a slow execution.  I do have a serious problem with a claim of
>: justice.  

>: 	It is the hypocritic attempt to cloak victor's justice with the
>: sanctimony of an OJ sytle trial that bothers me.

>"An OJ Style trial"?  You mean with lawyers and judges and defendants 
>having rights?

	That's the kind with a jury of one's peers and an attorney
present for any questioning, that sort of thing.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 22:12:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:03:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[edit]  

>>>>	Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.  

>>>Actually, Mr. Giwer, my comment stands.  The term "scholarship"
>>>is used broadly in university settings to describe the process
>>>of research in its entirety, from the conception of a research
>>>problem, through the collection of information (historical
>>>documents, experimentation, archaeological site survey or
>>>excavation, as just a couple of examples), the *analysis* of
>>>the resulting data, and its interpretation.

>>>And if you think archaeologists don't debate, at times very
>>>heatedly, the significance of what they "look at" and its
>>>broader interpretative meaning, you're merely blowing more
>>>hot air.  I'd be happy to provide you with some references
>>>about "scholarly debates" in archaeology if you are interested.

>>	Were you to compare the archaeolgist debates to the "the drawings
>>prove it true even though they don't say it" about the morgues
>>you might not be able to stop laughing at yourself.  

>>	Were you to seriously look at the "if you don't believe it you
>>are an anti-semitic neo-nazi" as one side of the "debate" you
>>would not be posting what you are posting.

>MAJOR PAUPACY ALERT!!!  GIWERIAN EVASIVE MANOUEVRE (i.e., clumsy
>as all get out).

>It's you I can't stop laughing at.  This is such a pitifully
>obvious effort to sidestep your misinformed, pedantry about
>scholarly research, something you clearly know zippo about,
>that I can scarcely keep myself on the chair.  Not a smooth
>move, Mr. Giwer.  Not a smooth move at all.

	Do not forget, none of us are here for each other who will never
be changed.   The last report was that there were 30,000
subscribers to this group.  There are perhaps 50 regular
participants.  

	You need to post in light of the rest.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 22:13:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34820 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death Rates, Burn Rates
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:39:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4mf592$ik1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4lr48o$8us@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  3:42:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> Of course, no one claims that THAT many people died at Treblinka or
>> Auschwitz today, mainly because that would have been physically
>> impossible.  Acceptable figures for the two camps today hover between
>> 500,000 and 1 Million.

>Er, no;  the death toll for Treblinka is usually cited as 800,000 or so,
>and for Auschwitz, 1.3 to 1.5 million.

>> Although Yehuda Levin, a
>> prominent Holocaust historian, provoked some ire when he suggested a
>> downward revision in 1989.

>"Yehuda Levin"?

>Do you mean the article on Yehuda Bauer, New York Times, Nov. 1989?

>Did you say you'd been studying the Holocaust for thirty years?

>> The point is that it was back in the days when Treblinka and Auschwitz
>> were believed to have been 10 times as "efficient" as they were that all
>> of this "testimony" emerged about burning people three at a time,
>> completely consumed in 20 minutes, etc. etc.  as a RESPONSE to skepticism
>> to show that indeed this many millions could have been killed here, and so
>> forth.
>> 
>> Therefore, I would submit that the numerous postings arguing about how
>> many people could have been burned per hour, or gassed per hour, at
>> Auschwitz or other such camps are about 10 years behind the consensus
>> curve on these issues.

>Interesting theory, but, like most "revisionism," it is not supported
>by the facts.

>The facts are that the stated capacities for the Auschwitz crematoria
>are listed quite explicitly, by the Nazis themselves, in a document
>which was captured after the war.  It tells the theoretical capacities
>of each crematorium building per 24-hour period.

>Since the ovens are still there today, we can count the number of
>muffles, divide capacity by twenty-four hours, and make very good
>approximations of how many people were burned at once and how long each
>incineration took.

	And assume they were all operating 24 hours per day 7 days a week
and assume that what takes 2 hours at 1200 degrees these days
occured in these magical ovens in 1/2 hour at 800 degrees in
those days and then explain the lack of coke as a black patch in
any of the aerial photos.  

	Nice try but no cigar.

>The fact that these figures coincide with the testimony provided after
>the war by the Sonderkommando and by the Nazis themselves -- including
>the memoirs of Rudolf Hoess -- is strong corroborating evidence of
>their accuracy.

>So I'm afraid I must reject your submission.

	Of course all that we have here is "tell me a gassing story"
without evidence.  
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat May  4 22:13:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: eye witness testimony is unreliable
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:54:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Y. Edeiken wrote:

>>In other words laws that were not ex post facto.  Case closed.

>No wonder people hate lawyers.  One of the more frequently stated and
>legitimate criticisms of Nuremberg is that the charges were based on ex
>post facto laws.  Can post a few quotes if you like, but they've been up
>here many times.  Methinks you're just doing lawyer weasel words -- if you
>don't state the full facts then the case is closed.  This isn't a trial. 
>Of course, neither was Nuremberg.  As one supreme court justice put it, 
>the presiding judge, Jackson, was "off on his high grade lynching party,"
>which he allowed that he objected to not nearly as much as attempts to
>pass it off as an exercise of law.


	That was never in question with this boy.  

	Exact phrasing is required else they declare victory.  

	And of course they never impose such requirements upon themselves
(holohuggers and the amen corner.)

	They are all threatening legal action in absense of clean hands.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun May  5 23:09:09 PDT 1996
Article: 34935 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 22:35:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:

># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
># The results were next to nothing.

>I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>never said?

>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>in Treblinka. 

	You still haven't looked up the two trials of Hoess on
indictments brought by General Rudenko and discovered which one
he was acquitted of.  

	You folks won't believe it if I tell you.

># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
># results being next to nothing. 

>Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>by the chemists who did the tests. 

	The largest numbers posted were from Leuchter who you people will
not believe.  The parts per billion were from the single data
point from a recent Polish report.  However since it constitutes
only a single data point it is a useless number.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun May  5 23:09:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 04:41:24 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27793 alt.revisionism:34943 soc.culture.jewish:47809

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: 
>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>: 
>: >: >In article <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net>,
>: >: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>: 
>: >: >	Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"?
>: 
>: >: >Yes, it can.
>: 
>: >: 	Enough said.
>: 
>: >For those who might think Giwer has responded, I pose the following 
>: >question to Mr. Giwer:
>: 
>: >If Mr. Moran says "I think Jews are the scum of the earth" -- is that 
>: >both true and anti-Semitic?
>: 
>: >Well, let's see:
>: 
>: >(1)It's true -- Li'l TOmmy does think Jews are the scum of the earth.  
>: >That doesn't make him accurate, but the statement is true.
>: 
>: >(2)Is it anti-Semitic? Well, duh.
>: 
>: 
>: 	Your IF is a really shitty try.  

>Is that why you haven't refuted it, Mr. GIwer?
>You seem to think that by just calling it shitty, thta makes it so;
>unfortunately for you, Because! I! Say! So! means nothing.
>If you can refute it, go ahead.

	How in the world could I refute YOUR hypothesis?
 
>: 	It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

>: 	If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>: anti-semitic as including the truth.  

>Gee, Mr. GIwer, how do YOU define anti-Semitic?

	Stupid.
 
>: 	Yes, it is truly an enemy situation where the speaker of the
>: truth must be attacked.  

>Uh-huh.  Refute the above.  Or do you think when Mr. Moran starts in with
>"Hebrew Huggems," and H*ber comes in with j*wsbriefs, that's not
>anti-Semitic?

	What is anti-semitic about those given all the self-proclaimed
Jewish holohuggers here and their "I'm not Jewish but ..." amen
corner?  

>: 	It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.
>: 
>: 	It has been a matter of primitive tribalists engaging in their
>: warfare in an unfortunate example of such tribalism surviving
>: into the 20th century.

>Thank you Mr. Giwer; in the same post where you denounce others for
>pointing out anti-Semitism, you make an anti-Semitic statement.

	How is that anti-semitic when it applies to so many other peoples
in the world?
	
>DOn't get me wrong; you have every right under the First Amendment not to
>like Joooos, 

	You should read the 1st amendment some time.

and to consider them "primitive tribalists."  But at least be
>a man and be honest about your dislike of Joooos, otherwise known as
>"anti-Semitism." 

	It is no less primitive than the same system of membership that
survives in Saudi for example, India in the caste system and in a
large part of Africa and still today among some of the remaining
Amerinds.  That you would insist it is modern rather than
primitive is simply your failure to learn anthropology.  

	It is also your failure to admit that a tribal custom of
membership at least 3500 years old and PROUDLY preserved is in
fact primitive.  By the assertions of the Jews themselves it is
at least 3500 years old.  What word would you like in place of
primitive?  

	What is your problem with the truth being stated other than your
belief that the truth can be antisemitc?  Your membership rules
are primitive.  What conceivably is your problem with that?  When
have you folks said otherwise?

	And if you do not like tribalists, just what translation of the
"twelve tribes" would you like instead?  What difference would
you have from any Amerind tribe save that you folks are
matrilineal rather than patrilineal?  And the Iriquous
confederation was matrilineal for that matter and they are
considered civilized although their practices in warfare (POWs so
to speak) do not appear to bear that out completely.  

	So what is your point in all of this?  Do you want to claim that
your 3500 year old practices have changed?  That they are
superior?  What?

>: 	One would hope civilization would catch up to these tribalists
>: and they would come into the modern world and learn to forgive
>: their real and imagined enemies.  Instead they are enjoined to
>: learn to hate.  And of course we have Nizkor as a religious site.

>Mr. Giwer, what we have is:

>(1)Your mass negative generalizations about Joooos;

	I have not been the first to claim they follow customs greater
than 3500 years old.

>(2)Your odd conviction that Jooos should not hate their enemies; a
>standard you haven't stated regarding any other group on the face of the 
>Earth.  

	You have not been reading very carefully if you think that.  Or
have you noticed me saying the North and South should still hate?
That was the greatest loss of life in any war the US has been
involved in.  You would expect me to at least be saying that.  

>and of course:

>(3)Your repeated false assertion that Nizkor is a religious site, long
>after it was pointed out that non-religious groups are also tax-exempt.
>See seciton 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

	And you have helped be clarify my thoughts on the matter.  Thank
you.

>That last statement by you is, of course, intellectual dishonesty:
>continuing to insist as true what you know to be false.

	Rather it was the statement of the problem.  We have a synagogue
being able to either transer or determine the tax status of an
independent organization.

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 00:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 34958 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 07:57:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4mhn8o$956@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: b93f$ad5@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4mchud$3oi@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution: 

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>: 
>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 
>: >: 	I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>: >: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>: >: it.  Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>: >: comedy of the absurd?  
>: 
>: >Because you apparently "did it" for twenty years without having the
>: >slightest idea of how "it" is done?  I dunno, just a guess...
>: 
>: 	How would a college kid like you know?

>The same way a guy with a Bachelor's only, and 20 years' separation from
>academia, would know about what academics are, and what scholarship is?

>The same way a guy with not a whit of training OR experience in law would
>insist on legal points which contradict every all known legal scholarship
>and judgments?

	In case you missed it, I was referring to 30 years of real life
experience.

	Come back when you have a significant fraction of same.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 11:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34988 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 02:00:59 GMT
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>My question:
>>>>>>>How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the
>>>>>>>first place? Why put heros in ghettos?

>>>>>Giwers stupid non-answer:
>>>>>>	What do those questions have to do with this being the official
>>>>>>Nazi policy.  This is what was offered to me as proof of gassing.
>>>>>>It clearly documents something quite different from that.  It is
>>>>>>the highest level documentation that has surfaced on the subject
>>>>>>of official Nazi policy.  

>>>>>Answering questions on tests must have been hard for you, Mr. Giwer.

>>>>	When studying official Nazi policy I would never expect to be
>>>>asked a question on demographics which, given the lack of
>>>>censuses from the period, would be impossible to answer.

>>>Clue: Read(HaHa!) Sarah Gordon's book on the final solution. Within
>>>that book you will find demographics. You will find that Jews were
>>>about 1% of the total population in Germany. 

>>	Instead of all of this crap why did not simply post the 1942 and
>>1943 census figures in support of your claim?  

>I see. You can't do any work yourself. You have to have others do it
>for you while you sit in the comfort of your cave with the empty
>book-shelves. Not only that but you changed your claim from "When
>studying official Nazi policy I would never expect to be asked a
>question on demographics which, given the lack of censuses from the
>period, would be impossible to answer."

	Rather I was pointing out the stupidity of the implication that
anyone would have such information but it appears you missed it.
An "annual" census?  In context the question was in response to
my citation of the Wannsee Protocal about Theriesenstadt.	 And
the brilliantly conceived and executed response is a question
that can not be answered for lack of information.  

> My claims were that there are population figures and demographics.
>Something you claimed there were not. If there were not demographics
>how would we now that Jews made up 1% of the population in 1933 the
>year your hero Hitler took power. 

>We also now from Hilberg( _Destruction_ pp. 106) that by "taking the
>Old Riech and Austria as a whole, the percentage of Jews living in the
>cities with populations of more than 100,000 rose from 74.2 to 82.3 in
>1939. (We knoqw this from "Die Juden und juedischen Mischlinge",
>*Wirtschaft und Statistik, XX, 86.) The census [NOTE THIS GIWER THE
>WORD CENSUS] of May 17. 1939, revealed a Jewish population of 330,892.

	Note:  NOT in the ten largest cities but total.

>More than two-thirds of the number lived in ten cities, as follows:
>	Vienna...................................91,480
>	Berlin.....................................82,788
>	Frankfurt............................... 14,461
>	Breslau................................. 11,172
>	Hamburg.............................. 10,131
>	Cologne...............................  8,539
>	Munich................................  5,050
>	Leipzig................................  4,477
>	Mannheim..........................  3,024
>	Nuremburg.........................  2,688
>				--------------
>				233,810  "

>Even the stupidist of people can see that this is quite a fall on
>population from 1933. 

	What would that have to do with 1942?  If you want to compare it
to 1939 then it is not clear why the sum of only ten cities would
indicate to you that 1/3 are missing.  A percentage increase has
no meaning to this discussion without absolute numbers.

This drop can be attributed to the immigration
>of some families forced out because their jobs were taken away or
>their businesses confiscated. Of course whatever money they had was
>taken away in special income taxes that applied to jews only. By 1939
>we have the starvation policies of the Nazis. Jews weren't to qualify
>for most kinds of food. 

	You are saying there was food rationing in Germany in 1939?  What
"kinds of food" were they not qualified for?   

So with no jobs, no businesses, inadequate
>food stuffs and now forced to live in certain buildings or
>areas(Ghettos) they got to be blessed with disease. 1942 was the year
>of mass deportations. But there weren't many left in Germany by that
>time. And the ages of the remaining Jews were older people.

>There is even a chart of Births and deaths of Jews in Old Reich that
>does not include Austria and Protektorat:

>Year		Births		Deaths		Population end of Year
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>1940		396		6,199		ca. 200,000
>1941		351		6,249		ca. 150,000
>1942		239		7,657	(after deportations) 51,327

>1940-42		986		20,105

>This can be seen in _Destruction_ on page 125. And the source is
>SS-Statistician Korherr to Himmler, March 27, 1943, NO-5194. The mass
>deportations started September 1941.

	You have given a secondary source.  It is unclear that the Nazis
would have conducted such damning censuses were they in fact
covering up everything else so well.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 11:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Krema Plans
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 01:47:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4m41c2$pub@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer continues to drive nails into his own coffin by
>> >offering bizarre excuses as to why the L.Kellers were "bomb shelters." The
>> >latest is to assert that the Krema staff, a few hundred at most, needed
>> >two "bomb shelters" that cold hold 4,000 people total! Amazing. 
>> 
>> As you know, I have not claimed they were bomb shelters.  I have
>> stated very clearly that they have construction features of bomb
>> shelters and has a roof that is clearly more expensive and
>> unnecessary for either a morgue or a gas chamber.

>REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer continues to drive nails into his own coffin by
>offering bizarre excuses as to why the L.Kellers were "bomb shelters." 

	You continue to repeat what I never said.  I merely pointed to an
alternate use that would explain the design features where you
can point to no design features necessary to either a morgue or a
gas chamber.  

The
>latest is to assert that the Krema staff, a few hundred at most, needed
>two "bomb shelters" that cold hold 4,000 people total! Amazing. 

	It would also be better if you would stop editting out things
that you can not respond to.

	But of course should you wish to argue from size then of course
the size of the room should be proportional to the number of your
muffles unless you are holding they were deliberately designed
with a mismatched capacity by a factor of two.

	I am still awaiting your post of the necessary reason that either
a morgue or a gas chamber would have a steel reinforced concrete
roof when a simple peaked roof would have been cheaper.

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer asserts the the L.Kellers had "construction features"
>> >that indicate it was a bomb shelter. What, pray tell, where these
>> >"construction features?" 
>> 
>> I have listed them.  The roof, the partially underground
>> construction, bermed walls where above ground, air-tight door, a
>> dispersed ventilation system. 

>REALITY CHECK: Obviously, Giwer is struggling with his rationalizations.
>Perhaps a little "help" is order? Do bomb shelter generally have large,
>flat, above ground roofs? 

	That is what bermed means.  The walls do not extend above.  As
long as the walls are protected from the blast it does not matter
if the roof is above or below ground unless it is many feet below
ground.  They do certainly have steel reinforced concrete
conconstruction where possible as it is the closest thing to bomb
proof there is.  

	Now your question, what purpose does such a roof serve to either
a morgue or gas chamber?  

	Since you have put the roof in question and I have answered I
will expect you to answer.

Do bomb shelters usually have
>aeration/deaeration capacities sufficent to replace the air in them
>several times in a few minutes? 

	They certainly have large capacity air circulation systems
however I am unaware of any time estimate that is available on
this subject.  Perhaps you could provide a citation?  Where were
the blowers found, how were they identified, what was their rated
capacity in operation?  

	The above are your questions to answer.

Do bomb shelters have corspe chutes
>leading to the surface that are blocked off with wooden partitions? 

	Both sides have stipulated that these buildings started off as
morgues and that design changes were made.  As for these wooden
partitions it is unclear how they could have survived in place
after enough explosive to bring down the roof was used.  It is
also unclear why a larger and heavier door was removed from the
area but not equally incriminating evidence was left. Perhaps you
could provide additional reference to these partitions?  

	It is certainly unclear why an air tight metal door would be
required on one enterance when wooden door would have sufficed.

	And of course your question, is the last.  Why would a gas
chamber have an air tight metal door in one place and rely upon
wooden particitions in another?

Do
>bomb shelters have frieght elevators connecting them to furnace rooms were
>the incinerators are? 

	Again, already stipulated these started life as morgues.

Do bomb shelters have holes in their roofs _and_
>gas-tight doors (with glass peepholes)?  In short: No. But the homicidal
>gas chambers of Kremas II and III did.  

	As one of the stories goes, those holes are where the four
support columns were.  The torque in the demolishion could
possibly account for them.  But then of course the air coming in
>from  the ventilation system had to go out some where.  For a
building that size four 9 inch holes would probably not have been
enough.  And of course, yes, straight up as then a direct hit is
always a problem.  Certainly it would avoid debris being blown in
as would a side vent in addition to avoiding becoming living
space for vermin.

>> Which explains the berming.  We would need to know the soil
>> conditions related to construction to determine if there was a
>> reason for it not being completely underground.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer explains nothing but ignores much. In the ground
>photo of Krema II, as shown in _Air Photo Evidense_, we can see that at
>least portions L.Keller 2 were not bermed, as the walls of the L.Keller
>are plainly seen. 

	Only those that would be in the shadow due to the angle of the
sun.  It would necessary to know the slope of the berming before
one could unequivocally say that what is seen is not a shadow.  

	Now your question is, what is the purpose of any berming for
either a morgue or a gas chamber?  Remembering of course that
concrete is also air tight.

Furthermore, berming the walls has no effect on the roof
>of L.Keller 1 in the least. One 500 lb. would make short work of the
>L.Keller, with its vast flat roof, being above ground as it is. As for the
>soil conditions, I'm sure Giwer will have no problem figuring that one
>out. Nor the solution the Nazis used to overcome it. (If, that is, Giwer
>would stoop to actually eading something about their construction!) 

	As I have said it is quite agreed that a direct hit could take it
out.  But then a few feet of earth would make little difference.


	And your question is, of what value is a roof of this
construction to either a morgue or a gas chamber?  

>[snip]

>> But, given the careful design details found by some researchers,
>> since the Krema itself was such a "juicy" target then, once hit
>> there was certainly no further need for a morgue or a gas
>> chamber.  Hitting the Krema was a good as putting the operation
>> otu of business.  Thus there is no explanation for this different
>> form of construction.  

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer obviously does not understand why people store
>perishables in cellars. 

	After the Krema is gone, are you suggesting they were going to
store corpses in this bomb proof structure?  

>[snip]

>> You need to keep in mind that those finding evidence of it being
>> a gas chamber are in the same position I am.  They are trying to
>> develop evidence from these same design features as I am
>> discussing.  

>PAUPACY ALERT: The evidence that the L.Keller 1s were gas chamber is not
>restricted to Giwer's farsical and disingenous "evaluations" by any
>stretch of the imagination. (Except Giwers, obviously.) It, in contrast,
>includes such things as the forensic evidence showing cyanide traces in
>Krema II's L.Keller 1; of the Nazi documentation that refers to L.Keller 1
>as a gas chamber; to the documentation (such as the order for "prussic
>acid" detectors" and the Zyklon B introduction columns) that indicates
>they where gas chambers; to design changes in L.Keller 1 and the Kremas
>(such as blocking off the corspe chutes, and installing a deaeration
>system and elevators); and of course, the testimony of Nazis and prisoners
>that the L.Kellers were indeed gas chambers and that large numbers of
>people were indeed murdered in them with Zyklon B. 

	The traces found were in the parts per billion range.  Hardly
impressive.  And certainly, as noted, it would have been
subjected to Zyklon-B more than once just to control the rats.
Not out of any respect for the dead but so the orderlies do not
have to deal with them.  

	And in fact, unless PBS's Frontline got the information wrong
which is of course always possible, then the people working on
this are trying to identify these as the buildings people have
talked about, not the other way around.

	It appears to me there is still a serious problem with none of
the stories address the actual physical layout of the buildings
in such manner as supports this being the building of interest.

	And your questions are as above.  I do expect answers rather than
the evasions you are planning to give.

>[snip]

>> >INGORANCE PAUPACY ALERT: The time frame was wrong? Hardly. The raid has
>> >been well-documented. If Giwer asserts that the September 13, 1944 raid on
>> >the IG Farben plant at Dwory did not happen on September 13, 1944, I most
>> >eagerly envite him to prove otherwise! It appears that Giwer, in his
>> >desperation, will spout the most absurd lies....
>> 
>> The time frame of 13 September post dates the construction of
>> these morgues and thus would not bear upon any converted use.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer unsuccessfully attempts to use sophistry to extract
>his ass from the crack his big mouth got it wedged into. Giwer, fails to
>remember that when Kremas II and III were _completed_ (in early 1943) the
>L.Kellers were operational gas chambers. They were "converted" only in
>that during the _construction_ process they were modified from morgues
>into gas chambers. 

	Then you are going to have to go further and establish some
relevance of your air raid story to these buildings.  You have
not been clear in the least.

>[snip]

>> >MAJOR EVASION ALERT: Indeed it will. And when Giwer's pet scam that that
>> >the L.Kellers were "bomb shelters" takes a "direct hit" I can only
>> >gleefully say "have a nice day" to Giwer! The simple fact is that why, if
>> >the L.Kellers were these enourmous "bomb shelters" capable of holding
>> >thousands of people, would there be civilain workers taking shelter in a
>> >BOMB SHELTER between the tracks on the rail spur in the camp? The reason
>> >is simle: the L.Kellers WERE NOT BOMB SHELTERS! The REAL BOMB SHELTERS at
>> >Birkenau were elsewhere. Like, in one unfortunate case, between the tracks
>> >on the rail spur in the camp. 
>> 
>> Where do you get thousands of people?  Shoulder to shoulder
>> perhaps but that is not the normal design criteria but rather the
>> worst case that can happen.

>The gas chamber (L.Keller 1), by accounts, did have as many as 2,000
>people crammed into it. Certainly as many as 1,500.  L.Keller 2 (the
>undressing room) was even larger and could have held more. However, as you
>seem to think that they were bomb shelters and not gas chambers,
>undressing rooms, or morgues; what estimates of the number of people do
>you think they could have held? Please provide documentation from other
>Nazi bomb shelters of the period for your conlusions. 

	If you intend to start playing the documentation game you will
have to lead off showing these features, particularly the roof,
as common to other  morgues and gas chambers.  After all it is
the gas chamber that is the assertion.  I am merely pointing out
the similarity of design features.  I have no declared them bomb
shelters.  I still have an open mind on the matter.

>> And what you refuse to admit is that both of us are starting from
>> the same premise that the rooms were originally intended to be
>> morgues.  You however are eliminating a morgue to gain a gas
>> chamber whereas I am only suggesting a secondary purpose for a
>> morgue.  

>REALITY CHECK: And what Giwer refuses to acknowledge, in spite of the
>overwhelming evidence, is that the L.Keller 1 of both Kremas II and III
>were converted into gas chambers prior to the coletion of the Kremas.
>There origional intent was to be morgues because the mass gassings of the
>victims to be cremated in Kremas II and III were originally intended to
>take place in the bunkers. However, as the gassings in the bunkers was
>going to be shifted to the Kremas, the Kremas needed gas chambers. Ergo,
>K.Keller 1 of both Kremas II and III were ad hoc converted into gas
>chambers. 

	And again, from PBS's Frontline, it is the search for deign
features to support the idea they were converted from morgues to
gas chambers that is under study.  Agreeing I should have
recorded it, I think they even used the cliche "detective story"
in connection with the search for evidence.  

	Where I come from, starting with a conclusion and searching for
supporting information is also referring to torturing the
evidence until is confesses.  Far from your presumption that it
has been concluded these were gas chambers it is still an open
quesiton until other possibilities have been considered.  

	Part of the answer may come in your explanation for the roof and
such other features should you decide not to avoid answering your
questions.

>> For the originally suggested morgue one would expect, had it been
>> completed in that manner, a standard peaked roof.  

>> Yet we have as a result a building that shows features of a bomb shelter.  

>REALITY CHECK: Why would the semi-buried L.Keller's require peaked roofs
>if they could support the snow load? They wouldn't. Do root cellars in the
>mid-west require peaked roofs? No. 

	There is nothing to require a peaked roof but you are the one who
needs explain why a gas chamber needs a more expensive type of
roof when simple wood would have done.  

Do bomb shelters have holes in their
>roof (and introduction columns) to pour Zyklon B into? No. 

	You are the one introducing the pouring.  They certainly do have
air exhausts and yes the roof is where you put them.  

Do bomb
>shelters have aeration/deaeration systems capable of replacing the air in
>them several times in just a few minutes? No. 

	That is data you are going to have to provide before the time is
in evidence.

Do bomb shelters have
>elevators to bring the corpses to the furnace hall? No. Do bomb shelters
>have blocked off corpse chutes? No. Are bomb shelters designated
>"Vergasunkeller" (gassing cellar)? No. Do bomb shelters have HCN detectors
>in them? No. 

>But the gas chambers of Kremas II and III did. 

	All of course I have answered and I will be looking forward to
your answers.

>> The proper thing for you to do next is to demonstrate that either a
>> morgue or a gas chamber has a need for a more expensive
>> reinforced concrete roof.  

>REALITY CHECK: The "proper thing" in reality is for Giwer, as he is posing
>an alternative argument to the Null argument that accepts that the
>L.Keller 1s were homicidal gassing chambers, is to offer corroborative
>evidence, technical documentary, and testimony, that shows that they were
>indeed bomb shelters. All the while addressing the considerable evidence
>that shows them to be homicidal gas chambers. 

>And, oh, let's not forget the _real_ bomb shelter located in the rail
>spur, which would have been unnecessary if the L.Kellers were actually
>bomb shelters.

>Failure to do so are grounds for this silly idea that the L.Kellers were
>bomb shelters to be dismissed out of hand. 

	Only by true believers with closed minds who will refuse to even
attempt to support their position.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 14:11:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35023 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 04:09:19 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[edit]

>>	The "academic" claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>>dropping a quarter for verification.  My experience in these
>>public exchanges started in 1980.  My experience is also that the
>>grander the claim the less likely to be true.  

>>	Credentials are never to be taken as true as given.  Were I to
>>dredge up old memories I could give a long list.  But in this
>>case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates.  Department
>>members are likely the same.  (A department member sig even
>>vanished when I mentioned that point.)   Note the near complete
>>lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>>the internet.

>>	Note here we have identification without what one would basically
>>expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>>Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>>those claiming the credentials.  One has to accept that
>>accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>>reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>>fact available through this medium.  

>[edit]

>Pretty smooth prose, Mr. Giwer.  Did you have someone translate
>from Giwerundian into English for you just this once?

	When people are not playing the game of not being able to
understand it, considered juvenile and excessive such game
playing leading to banning on the private networks,  it is always
as understandable as you say.  

	The problem on the internet is that so many undergraduates
receive their first exposure to public exchanges and think their
high school routines are clever in an adult forum.  



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 16:54:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47909 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He is a Loser!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:12:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4lup31$bsf@access5.digex.net> <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m33qv$rua@shiva.usa.net> <4m48jr$r91@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m8rla$hfk@shiva.usa.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27829 alt.revisionism:35044 soc.culture.jewish:47909

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>	You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.


>I responded:

>	All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer's
>	skin!  Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he
>	resorts to these baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention
>	from his own intellectual dishonesty.


>In article <4m48jr$r91@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) once again demnonstrates that his
>vaunted IQ is not up to the task of reading with comprehension:

>	Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority? 

>Not at all!  Changing the subject to "belief in a hyphenated god"
>proves that Mr. Giwer is intellectually inferior to Mike Stein whose
>post started the whole controversy.

>	Are you really saying that all Jews who believe in a god, who
>	are Jews by religion, are superior to all atheist Jews?

>Of course not!  But Mr. Giwer is aware that what I actually said is
>too damning to refute, so he puts words that he can refute into
>my mouth!

>	It certainly appears that way.

>That is because Mr. Giwer has reading comprehension problems, but
>what else can be expected from someone who cannot fathom the meaning
>of simple words like "and" and "or!"

>	But perhaps you can find a way out of that clear consequence
>	of your assertion.  

>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer can find a way to salvage his claim to an
>astronomical IQ in the face of his inability to read a simple English
>sentence and understand what it means.

	Mere geniuses such as yourself often have such problems.

>Mr. Giwer's .sig read:

>	What kind of truth is it that needs protection?


>I responded:

>	The truth is fragile and always needs protection from
>	the Giwers of the world!

>To which, he replies:

>	The truth is in fear of me.

>Like a true medievalist, Mr. Giwer turns the truth into a person.
>If the truth is truly in fear of Mr. Giwer it must be because of the
>violence he does to it.

	You made it a solid object by designating it fragile.   

>	You view me as far more powerful than I really am.

>Wishful thinking!

	But I am a danger to your truth.  How can I be that powerful?

>	In fact I am nothing...

>Mr. Giwer ought to quit while he is ahead!

>	...but characters on your screen.

>Arranged in a random fashion that simulates English syntax, but with no
>actual intellectual content!

	Again, you mere geniuses have that problem.

>	But a superman like you needs protect your truth from me.

>Mr. Giwer views me as far more powerful than I really am.  I am not a
>superman and I have never had a desire to be.  Nor do I protect "my
>truth" from anyone.  I do try to protect the established truth from
>the distortions and lies that Mr. Giwer promulgates.

	Would you settle for the title, "Protector of the Truth"?  It is
a  more modern version than "Defender of the Faith."

>	If half what is said about me were true then the consequences of
>	what I am saying would support your truth, saving you the effort
>	of needing to defend it.

>Mr. Giwer demonstrates once again that someone who cannot read,
>cannot write intelligibly either!

>I have no clue what Mr. Giwer intended with this last barrage of
>meaningless verbiage, but I can say that lies and distortions can be
>seductive, especially if they play to deeply-ingrained prejudices in
>the audience.  The only way to establish the truth in the face of
>lies like Mr. Giwer's, is to repeat it and support it with facts at
>every opportunity.

	You can not help being only a genius.


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35044 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He is a Loser!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:12:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 121
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References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4lup31$bsf@access5.digex.net> <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m33qv$rua@shiva.usa.net> <4m48jr$r91@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m8rla$hfk@shiva.usa.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27829 alt.revisionism:35044 soc.culture.jewish:47909

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>	You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.


>I responded:

>	All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer's
>	skin!  Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he
>	resorts to these baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention
>	from his own intellectual dishonesty.


>In article <4m48jr$r91@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) once again demnonstrates that his
>vaunted IQ is not up to the task of reading with comprehension:

>	Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority? 

>Not at all!  Changing the subject to "belief in a hyphenated god"
>proves that Mr. Giwer is intellectually inferior to Mike Stein whose
>post started the whole controversy.

>	Are you really saying that all Jews who believe in a god, who
>	are Jews by religion, are superior to all atheist Jews?

>Of course not!  But Mr. Giwer is aware that what I actually said is
>too damning to refute, so he puts words that he can refute into
>my mouth!

>	It certainly appears that way.

>That is because Mr. Giwer has reading comprehension problems, but
>what else can be expected from someone who cannot fathom the meaning
>of simple words like "and" and "or!"

>	But perhaps you can find a way out of that clear consequence
>	of your assertion.  

>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer can find a way to salvage his claim to an
>astronomical IQ in the face of his inability to read a simple English
>sentence and understand what it means.

	Mere geniuses such as yourself often have such problems.

>Mr. Giwer's .sig read:

>	What kind of truth is it that needs protection?


>I responded:

>	The truth is fragile and always needs protection from
>	the Giwers of the world!

>To which, he replies:

>	The truth is in fear of me.

>Like a true medievalist, Mr. Giwer turns the truth into a person.
>If the truth is truly in fear of Mr. Giwer it must be because of the
>violence he does to it.

	You made it a solid object by designating it fragile.   

>	You view me as far more powerful than I really am.

>Wishful thinking!

	But I am a danger to your truth.  How can I be that powerful?

>	In fact I am nothing...

>Mr. Giwer ought to quit while he is ahead!

>	...but characters on your screen.

>Arranged in a random fashion that simulates English syntax, but with no
>actual intellectual content!

	Again, you mere geniuses have that problem.

>	But a superman like you needs protect your truth from me.

>Mr. Giwer views me as far more powerful than I really am.  I am not a
>superman and I have never had a desire to be.  Nor do I protect "my
>truth" from anyone.  I do try to protect the established truth from
>the distortions and lies that Mr. Giwer promulgates.

	Would you settle for the title, "Protector of the Truth"?  It is
a  more modern version than "Defender of the Faith."

>	If half what is said about me were true then the consequences of
>	what I am saying would support your truth, saving you the effort
>	of needing to defend it.

>Mr. Giwer demonstrates once again that someone who cannot read,
>cannot write intelligibly either!

>I have no clue what Mr. Giwer intended with this last barrage of
>meaningless verbiage, but I can say that lies and distortions can be
>seductive, especially if they play to deeply-ingrained prejudices in
>the audience.  The only way to establish the truth in the face of
>lies like Mr. Giwer's, is to repeat it and support it with facts at
>every opportunity.

	You can not help being only a genius.


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:26:50 PDT 1996
Article: 35048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer in Action: Three Lines, Three Lies (Re: Alex Baron: A Sa
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:30:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4m9ro3$83c@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <830298004snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <830471303snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <4m3glq$um@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02  3:28:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer  wrote:

>[About the testimony of SS-men and survivors from the camps]

># Were all of it to be accepted on face value as a complete record
># one would have to accept that there was never a crossexamination

>Liar. There were crossexaminations.

	I have never said there was not.  I have never pointed out that
the crossexamination is never posted nor kept at Nizkor.

># and never a defense presented 

>Liar. The SS-men did have legal defense. A pretty heavy team
>of lawyers in some trials.

	As above, the defense is not posted here nor is it carried at
Nizkor.  

># and never an acquittal.

>Liar. There were acquittals.

	As above

>#   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>You stole this line from Horst Slepokura, right, who himself
>quoted someone else?

>Now tell me: what kind of a theory is it that is sponsored by
>liars such as yourself?

	A challenge to what is presented is not a theory.  You need to
learn some science.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:26:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35050 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:37:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <4m9ojd$7c9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net> <4lprhi$frk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <26APR199618514917@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4m6i00$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <1MAY199608551352@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02  2:35:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m6i00$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>> 
>>>[To Daniel Mittleman]
>> 
>>># But we know that your background is ZERO in science as are all
>>># the gang of six and yours.
>> 
>>>You seem more drunk today than you usually are, Giwer. In such
>>>days, you make many spelling errors, you rant and rave like
>>>a deranged maniac, every second word in your articles is "shit",
>>>or "fuck", and your sentences are, how to say it, oddly
>>>structured.
>> 
>>>Rich Green is but one person who has a much stronger scientific
>>>background than you. Yours conists of a B.Sc obtained 20 years
>>>ago, am I correct?
>> 
>>	Nearly 30 actually.  
>> 
>>># You are a lying little shit and you know it.
>> 
>>>Shut your filthy trap, Giwer.
>> 
>>	Such a retort.  

>    Actually Matt, given the discussion that has taken place, no more of a
>    retort is necessary.  You have asserted you know what an undergraduate
>    Physics major know - and maybe you do.  But, though the ongoing
>    discussion, it has become clear that you do not understand:

>    1. Research Methods as they are taught to first year gradute students,
>    including:
>    	a. The concept of reliability (and threats to it)
>    	b. The concept of validity (and threats to it)
>    	c. How to do experiments outside of a physics lab setting
>    	d. Research methods outside of basic methods used for physics

>    2. The relationship of the physical sciences to the social sciences and
>    how physical science methodolgies translate to the social sciences,
>    including:
>    	a. How to apply concepts of reliability in the social sciences
>    	b. How to apply concepts of validity in the social sciences

>    3. Any idea at all how historiography works.

	In what particular field might these be taught and how do you
know?  

	And why would you put something first year grad students are
taught up against 20+ years of practical and succesful
application of several of physical sciences.  

	I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
it.  Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
comedy of the absurd?  

>    It has become clear that you deal with the entire world using the
>    limited scope of knowledge you have without considering that there is a
>    larger sphere of knowledge out there which may explain things in ways
>    you might not understand.

>    It has become clear that when anyone presents information based on
>    paradigm, theories, constructs, or information outside of your own
>    frame of knowledge you go into denial and contort the most fascinating
>    schemes to try to make your own frame work.

	All of the nonscientific fields have resulted in absolutely zero
progress.  We are "failing to communicate" based upon the results
of the real sciences.  

	Newton was able to deflect claims of his greatness by saying that
he stood upon the shoulders of giants.  No "scholar" can make
such a claim.  

	All of the non-science areas are no different than athletes.  All
of their accomplishments are based upon their individual
abilities and no success can build upon them.  

	A scientist can teach other to be scientists.  Generations of
them can raise us from the dark ages to space flight.  Beowulf is
stull up there among the great works.  Some still consider Plato
(the other guy, drawing a blank) the peak of philosophy or at
least that his ideas are still worth considering.  Aristotle's
science was discarded to begin progress in science.   Cave
painting from the Ice Age are considered great works of art.  

	If you discard the idea of progress, you may have a point.

>    It has become clear that when this fails (and it often does on this
>    newsgroup) that you resort to changing the subject, and engaging in
>    ridicule.

>    Therefore, at this point "shut your filthy trap" is a perfectly
>    reasonable response to you.
	
	Get back to me when you have grown up.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:26:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:40:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4m9opr$7c9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ldpjh$duc@Vir.com> <4lv52l$q9c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <4m3bfc$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02  2:38:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## The question is "why, *in your opinion*, did the SS design
>## 5 huge crematoriums with such an enormous morgue space, all
>## for a 'work camp'"?

># Sir, I do not know why.  

>Why don't you make a guess? Why did God bless you with "163 IQ
>points" you claim to own, if you can't make a simple conjecture?

	You are quite confused about IQ if you believe it has anything to
do with guessing.  

># Excuse me but this connection between the two is something you
># have just introduced out of whole cloth.  We have clearly had the
># aerial photos of two of them.  There is no clear manner in which
># a diagonal passagway between the two could exist 

>The gas chamber was *underground*. The short corridor that led
>to it was also, therefore, *underground*. Hint: that's why you
>don't see it in the aerial photo.

	The undressing room is claimed to have been above ground and is
clearly shown to be so in the K4 picture.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:26:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:54:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4m9tcr$3c4@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31669b42.7032542@news.pacificnet.net> <316d5081.17676042@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <316db96e.46301994@news.pacificnet.net> <3171862b.4370833@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <16APR199618074932@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>   <4lu8is$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>  <4m4hl7$gqg@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>	By the Goldhagen definition they are exactly the same as a
>>"dentention and execution" description of US prisons.  I regret
>>that you folks would prefer to have English be otherwise but it
>>is not.

>I regret that you are unable to read. Please try to follow these
>statements:

>1) The Third Reich "camps" as defined by certain Holocaust researchers
>   including D.J. Goldhagen were for detention and execution. This does
>   not mean that every single camp included formal execution facilities,
>   although my best take is that virtually all were homicidal to some
>   degree or another.

>2) It would not be correct to say that the institutions of the Federal
>   Prison System known in the relevant jargon as "camps" are for detention
>   and execution, because *no* such camp conducts executions. These are
>   minimum-security facilities. Minimum-security facilities do not 
>   conduct executions. Clear so far?

>3) Prisons in the United States are for detention and execution. This is
>   true, even if the prisons equipped to conduct executions are a tiny
>   minority, and even though executions are exceptional events as opposed
>   to the routinely homicidal character of the Third Reich "camps".

>Note that the meaning of the word "camp" in #1 is significantly different
>from that in #2.

>All clear now? I understand many community colleges offer courses in
>remedial English. Perhaps you could enroll.

	Although I continue to hear complaints about the public education
system in the US it rare to see such obvious examples of it.  

	In all of your examples the use of the word OR solves all of the
confusion and is of course the correct usage.  But here we are
with both you and Goldhagen being the product of a public school
education.  

	It is, if you do not mind, rather pathetic.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:26:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:04:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4m9tp7$aqc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com>  <317a3a07.2550332@news.pacificnet.net>   <4lgvdt$ggp@wi.combase.com>  <4lserr$7p8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02  4:03:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4lserr$7p8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Has Giwer seen the patent, with whatever supporting
>> >documentation was used to determine the vaporization rate, to determine
>> >this?  No? Then why do he make such a specious claim? 
>> 
>> I will be happy to read this supporting documentation you claim
>> exists when it is posted but what you have said does not support
>> any claim of scientific accuracy as a requirement for a patent.
>> You will also note that in previous posts several different
>> media, primarily silica gel, have been posted as the medium.

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Has Giwer seen the patent, with whatever supporting
>documentation was used to determine the vaporization rate, to determine
>this?  No? Then why do he make such a specious claim? 

	When some university is dumb enough to give you a degree, get
back to me with it's name.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 17:39:17 PDT 1996
Article: 27834 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:36:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4m9vji$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <31836d23.6796639@news.pacificnet.net> <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net> <4m8tpo$hfk@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27834 alt.revisionism:35063 soc.culture.jewish:47953

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:

>	Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"?

>Yes, it can.

	Enough said.

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 18:32:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 09:02:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4mkfd1$2ai@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4loi5c$7jp@hackberry.zilker.net> <3180CCB6.5994@nt.com> <4m01vc$sc9@boris.eden.com> <3184D28D.62E3@nt.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06  4:05:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Mike Curtis wrote:
>> 
>>
>> These are claims as a liberator. I've seen this stuff before. We
>> called the SW Center and they have no record of him. He supposed to be
>> in the Hall of the Righteous according to Giwer, but no one knows
>> where or has heard of him. He might be real, but what Giwer makes of
>> him is suspect in light of the evidence so far.
>> 

>Since his troop, platoon, what have you (I knew the name of the outfit,
>got it verified and have long since lost it) was cited as a whole, I'm
>not surprised.

>I have seen what Matt has posted and those are definitely Al's messages
>- but Al did have a tendency to, shall we say "extend the facts".

>> I have that. It's the claims that go with the name that are an issue.

>That Al said them, based on his own limited view and somewhat
>over-extended, is true.

>That doesn't mean that Al was particularly honest - he wasn't - just
>that thye satements were made.

	But of course the issue here is that we have one more eyewitness.
And as all eyewittnes are equal  his testimony must be
introduced.

	
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon May  6 18:32:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!cyberus.ca!news.magmacom.com!news2.ottawa.istar.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!torn!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: keeping up to date
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:55:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4m46ds$925@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Apr 29 11:54:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>!Rack Jite wrote:

>> How do you know I never complained to the police?

>I asked them - since you gave me permission to do so by your claims.

>> Which Police? Local, City, County, or as the threats came across state
>> lines, the guys in the black Helicopters?

>Well, there was that big to-do with the sheriff's department - that
>never happened.

>But - basically - El Lago, Texas, since you would have had to start with
>them in order to get any larger agency to look at your case.

>You're a fake, Davy-girl.

>> Did you and Alec contact all police agencies of all users you hate?

>I have never contacted the police department of anyone that I hate,
>Davy-girl. Don't give yourself so much credit.
> 
>> A little different around here than on FIDO where the three general
>> political debate areas were moderated by the NRA? :)

>Controv, Politics and Debate were not moderated by the NRA, Davy-girl.

>Just because they couldn't stand your incessant whining and libels,
>don't accuse them of political leanings that were'nt present. 

>IOW - they didn't bounce you because of politics. They just didn't like
>your "smell".

	Ah, yes but just what the reason David Bloomberg gave?  Strange
that he would get rid of such a great defender of Jews.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue May  7 05:10:04 PDT 1996
Article: 35104 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The real holocaust and the holocaust of faith
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:13:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <4mm89d$du2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <830245592snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4llinr$2r7@hackberry.zilker.net> <4lnd0h$1j1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mamem$4lm@hackberry.zilker.net> <4mcf24$9ps@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mg0g6$gkt@boris.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06  8:16:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>Alexander Baron  wrote:


>>>>>>Hey Dan, 

>>>>>>Chuckee is a great fan of yours, and a devout believer in the gassings. And
>>>>>>Jesus.

>>>>>> Heck, if you can believe that a man raised the dead, rose from the 
>>>>>>dead himself, walked on the water, turned water into wine, duelled with the 
>>>>>>Devil in the desert AND was born of a virgin, well Dan, mass gassings aren't
>>>>>>that much of a leap of faith, are they?

>>>>>This is the Jesus of faith and not the historical Jesus, btw.

>>>>	And there is the historical holocaust and the holocaust of faith.

>>>>The real holocaust is borne of truth and death and destruction of
>>>>millions of people.  The holocaust of faith is borne by the many
>>>>more millions who were born after it who continue the true faith
>>>>based upon war propaganda 

>>>These examples of War propaganda are?(fill in the blanks):


>>>>	It is time that those who have given up their faith in their god
>>>>give up their faith in their holocaust.

>>>What of the Historical Holocaust? Isn't that real? Where is there
>>>faith in reality? 

>>	Which historic holocaust?   The work camps in the pre-antibiotic
>>era where the life span was shorter than the the seven year life
>>span in the post-antibiotic era of the gulags or the one where
>>gassing is required to achieve a lesser result?

>Well, you are a rock. The Historic holocaust consists of the
>documents, testimony, photographs, the sites of the murders, the
>bodies, and the enormous amount of other evidence used to put together
>what happened during 1933 to 1945 inside Germany and in German
>occupied countries. It has nothing to do with antibiotics. 

	The bodies?  I thought they were all burned and the ashes put
into the disintegration chamber or beamed up to the Enterprise.
There are at least 2000 tons of bone ash in the 40 acre site of
Treblinka, 50 tons per acre, all no one can find a trace of it.  

	But then, given the life expectancy in the Gulags, it is unclear
why there was any need to gas anyone as one would expect
something quite close to the same number of deaths with or
without gassing.  Given what is known about the Gulags and
presuming no gassing it is rather surprising to note there were
any survivors at all.
	
>>>People have faith that God exists or that Jesus was the Son of God.
>>>This is faith. Hope. I can't seem to put together a "faith" for the
>>>holocaust. What is this faith?

>>	This has nothing to do with fact and everything to do with
>>superstition.  

>What superstition is that and what does it have to do with the
>holocaust. Is the stupidstition that Jews are an inferior race or that
>it is possible to build a superior race by killing off those who are
>deemed undesirable?

	It is only the superstitious who, when confronted with clearly
contradictory testimony (even if they do not understand science)
can accept both as true at the same time.  

	Consider yourself for example.  These camps were in operation for
at least four years.  Some expert on the suject can correct me on
that matter if they wish but I think we are in fact talking on
the order of five or six years, 1939 to 1945.  You have also
accepted without question the average life expentancy given by
Alexander S(? never can spell it) in the Gulag Archipelago (and
get that one wrong also.)  You would also accept an even shorter
life expectancy pre antibiotics.

	Yet when faced with something in the same ball park in both the
KZs and the Gulags you do not see the least problem with throwing
in millions of unnecessary gassings.  

	Any attempt to salvage the story in light of the Gulags points to
much better camp conditions for the majority of the time they
existed than were discovered upon their being liberated.  And I
presume you can see what stories are in danger if that it true.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue May  7 05:10:05 PDT 1996
Article: 35109 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Krema Plans
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 01:55:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4m17ga$3mg@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <317b9f78.6536294@news.pacificnet.net>  <4ls5gb$ps6@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>  
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4ls5gb$ps6@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> I am the only one I know of who has pointed out they bear more
>> resemblance to bomb shelters than morgues.  

>SELF-STROKING ALERT: ROTFL! And this _means_ something? Besides the fact that 
>Giwer's gaga? Or that he craves attention so bad he will bestow kudos on
>himself!   

	This time your attempt at over-reaching must have strained
something serious.

>> To answer you the bottleneck would always be the door.  The
>> larger the door the greater the total pressure on the door and
>> thus the smaller the better as on submarines.  And on the other
>> hand, people wanting to get into them would be 1) drilled in the
>> process and 2) highly motivated to get into them.

>SUPER MAJOR REALITY CHECK: Notice that Giwer has just done a back-flip off
>off the deep end. Whom, exactly, is Giwer suggesting were these "drilled"
>and "highly motivated" people? The prisoners? Hardly "drilled" but I'm
>sure they would probably be highly motivated to hide in a bomb shelter if
>they were being bombed. (Who wouldn't?) The problem is, of course, that
>they had an very tall fence, with guards in towers who shot to kill if you
>tried to leave the camp, between them and Giwer's "bomb shelters."  

	I would suggest those who were not on duty at the time of such an
air raid were the motivated ones.   Certainly the folks operating
the Krema itself were motivated.

>Or perhaps he's talking about the SS? Too bad the "bomb shelters" were
>secluded so far away from the rest of the camp! One might get bombed or
>something before they could get inside! Interesting too that the _entire_
>SS complement at Auschwitc complex usually averaged about 3,000. For ALL
>the camps. Isn't it kind of odd to have FOUR "bomb shelters" that could
>hold about 8,000 people total located at Birkenau? 

	None of this contradicts clear bomb shelter construction features
that are needlessly expesive and certainly unnecessary for either
a morgue or a gas chamber.  

>I guess when Auschwitz I was accidently bombed during the September 13,
>1944 raid on the IG Farben raid on Dwory y (several bombs hit the camp)
>those 15 SS men who were killed and the 28 others who were injured, not to
>mention the 23 prisoners killed and 65 who were critically wounded, just
>were SOL because Giwer's fabulous "bomb shelters" were in Birkenau. 

	The time frame is wrong as you are aware.

>But wait! It gets better. Also during the September 13 raid several bombs
>were also accidently dropped on Birkenau. One hit the railroad embankment
>leading to the camp and the spur leading to Kremas II and III. Another
>landed _between_ the tracks on the spur and hit - guess what - A BOMB
>SHELTER! Killed 30 civilian  workers too. (_Auschwitz and the Allies_,
>p.315.) 

	As I have previously noted, a direct hit can ruin your entire
day.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue May  7 05:10:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35125 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 01:26:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4mh022$j75@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken & Wendy Blouse) wrote:

>In article <4mc983$obd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com says...

>>        You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to
>>individuals as I have noted many times.  Please be specific in
>>your response, idiot.

>	The idiot seems to be you.  You posted that the laws were "ex post facto."  You have 
>now received evidence that they were not.  To be specific no penalties to indivuals are required to 
>make the enforcement of a law valid.  cf. Commonwealth v. Mochau 110 A.2d 788, 177 Pa. 
>Super. 454 (1955) for an example of this.  You have no training in law, legal theory, legal analysis, 
>or legal research yet you insist on continually making an idiot of yourself by pretending otherwise.  
>By the way, it took but (according to my seach program, 2 minutes 36 seconds to find and 
>shepardize a case which proves you wrong; that included changing CDs.  Next time try to make it 
>*look* good.

	You have provided evidence of the existance of international
agreements which was never in question.  Apparently you can not
tell the difference.  

	You have continued to confuse evidence with testimony about
evidence.  

	But I can see why you are confused.  Your state requires
witnesses to swear that the "evidence" they are about to give is
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth much as a
murder weapon is the truth.  And of course in your state
falsifying evidence is called perjury.  It is no wonder you are
confused.

	But have no fear, the holohuggers will pretend they have never
taken an oath in court to defend you.  

	They will also pretend they do not know the difference between a
treaty and a law simply because you have stated they are the same
thing.  And in so doing they will all be agreeing that, should
the US hold Canada has violated NAFTA, the US can send in the
troops and arrest the cabinet and jail them for such violations.
Not only the cabinet but every person who profitted from that
violation.

	You live in a very strange state.  

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 35136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWER-SLIMEY BIGOT
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:20:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4mmtqe$g38@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 22:18:14 EDT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote and
>is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!The provider responded that Giwer was about to be bounced from Combase.
>!At about the same time, John Morris, who had also complained to Giwer's
>!provider, posted that Giwer was about to get bounced.

>I understand why I am mostly ignored in here, people do not want to add
>to the flames -- though when it is they who get lied about and libeled
>they sure fall into it without much reflection about their own hypocrisy
>in the matter. :)

>I admit taking some preverted pleasure 

	No one has EVER said you were not perverted.

in watching this happen to McFee.
>It seems we all tend to judge the net flamers as EQUAL boneheads UNTIL
>we personally become the brunt of it, not realizing we have become what
>we claimed was a bonehead the day before. What Giwer and Grynspan have
>done to me is what Giwer is now doing to McFee. 

	You mean what was done was correct?

Perhaps he too, -- 10
>years from now -- will still be hearing the lies that he is a Marduk; a
>message forger, a criminal phone harasser who Giwer got fired, ect...
>On and on the lies will GO and GROW across nets and usegroups with the
>years, with others like Grynspan jumping in to help Giwer along with it.

>When I was first drawn in here because of Giwers crossposting, I
>suggested a way of dealing with him. Once again...

>First I want to be clear on the purpose of this newsgroup. It is indeed
>necessary for Nizkor and the many others here to refute the Revisionist
>and Deniers lies and corrupt facts. Its boring and hard work, but it has
>to be done, hats off to yall. I personally feel that the GIWER fight
>going on here over the past few months is not all that detremental to
>this Usegroup, and in fact, a bit of relief to the seriousness of the
>newsgroup charter.   

>But there are special cases. By this time you know what Giwer is about
>and what his game is. He is an extreme right-wing, hate the goverment
>gungoon who hates Jews and wants to show off what he presumes is his
>intellectual superiority on matters of history and science, specifically
>chemistry. You want to get to him?  Deny him that.

>Mr Morris today made his pronouncement to put Giwer in his Kill file.
>Good for him. Thats one option. The other is to not respond to any issue
>oriented message he posts, especially concerning chemistry. Either ignor
>those messages or respond with the WHYS of his revisionism and
>anti-Semitism rather than his word games and lies.

>Another point to help those not interested in reading the Giwergames.
>Change the subject to reflect that the message is about Giwer so other
>users can pass it by if they wish.

	You obviously need to get rid or your radio and have that bad
tooth extracted.

>       I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
>      disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by.
>             ----------------------------------
>      Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg
>    Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 35138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That's Incredible!
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:26:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
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References: <4lrap2$bal@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mbt03$1jv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4mer7v$89n@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I'll look in the Pattle et. al. paper about the color of the
>smoke from the diesel engine - that will be either tomorrow or
>on Monday.

	What remote part of the world do you live in that you have never
seen it for yourself?  

	



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:27 PDT 1996
Article: 35144 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Giwer-troll strikes again
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:04:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <4mm48p$a6v@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4le3jd$fvg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>  <4lrkmh$rb4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4m1k3t$7k2@access4.digex.net>
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mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4lrkmh$rb4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4le3jd$fvg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
>>>(Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>[more snip]
>>
>>	And all of this when auto engine exhaust is just as deadly.

>[snip - text below is a requote from another post]

>>A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by
>>Nebe and Dr. Widmann in Mogilev. In the local lunatic asylum, a room
>>with twenty to thirty of the insane was closed hermetically, and two
>>pipes were driven into the wall. A car was parked outside, and one of
>>the metal pipes that Dr. Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of
>>the car to the pipe in the wall. The car engine was turned on and the
>>carbon monoxide began seeping into the room. After eight minutes, the
>>people in the room were still alive. A second car was connected to the
>>other pipe in the wall. The two cars were operated simultaneously, and
>>a few minutes later all those in the room were dead.
>>
>>	[Note again the time frame is the same as Zyklon-B

>    This claim has still not been supported.  Mr. Giwer claims it is in
>the Auschwitz FAQ but he has not quoted the text which supports this
>claim, and I cannot seem to find it.  As he has posted elsewhere, it is
>the responsibility of the one making the claim to support it.

	Go to the story about the enterprising Fritsch and you will find
a time frame given, both a reasonable one or "gas 'em some more
the next day addendum.

>    In addition, the testimony above is not completely clear as to whether
>there is an untimed additional interval between the conclusion of the
>eight minutes and the start of operation of the second car.  I.e., does
>the "few minutes" start immediately after the end of the eight minutes of
>single-car operation?  Or did it start with the ignition of the second
>car, even though it might have taken some unspecified amount of time to
>get the second car and hook it up?  The text is somewhat ambiguous.

	Can't change the ambiguity.  To me it indicates the author
doesn't quite konw what he is describing, that he is responding
to a request for a story about gassing.  That is why I subject
the words as best as possible physical laws which do not change.

>>and corroborates the eyewitness statement posted here.]

>    As the Giwer-troll ought to know if he has the scientific knowledge he
>claims, concentration must be taken into account, and like must be
>compared to like.  

	At least I do not use what I know to deliberately deceive people.

In a small enough room, twelve minutes might indeed
>suffice for two autos to produce a sufficiently lethal atmosphere in the
>room.  This says nothing about how long a normal concentration of Zyklon
>would have taken in the _same_ room.  (One granule of Zyklon, of course,
>would have taken approximately forever.)

	But as you know, although anything may happen in a sufficiently
small room, we are talking about Treblinka which another
eyewitness claims had a capacity of 1000 per hour and that then
entire process took one hour.  So are left conclude a room or
rooms sufficiently large to deal with that throughput.  

	As for the concentration it can never become greater than that of
the exhaust itself thus we would have a basis for coming up with
that time if we have the volume for the building and for the
engine cylinders and assuming a reasonable RPM.  In the ideal
world it would be a simple linear increase in the amount of
exhaust.

	Or, on the other hand, we have the claim of the time from this
testimony which makes all of the time problems worse.  Consider
even in suicide cases where the engine is inside the garage and
levels can get higher than the primary exhaust itself the
attempts are quite often unsucessful and from the news reports I
can remember they are often unsuccessful after hours.  Of course
there are certainly many other factors involved.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:28 PDT 1996
Article: 35145 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:20:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4lt4hn$fb1@Vir.com>   <4m8hut$3dg@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06  7:24:01 PM CDT 1996
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4m8hut$3dg@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> It is good to see another contradiction of one true believer by
>> another true believer.  It is so rare.

>REALITY CHECK: It is also a figment of Giwer's tortured imagination. 

>> >In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>> >wrote:
>> 
>> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu   wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> #   I've already say that this was wrong according to Hoess affidavit
>> >> #  In that case, he claimed that he visited Treblinka and that
>> >> #  a lot of Jews had been gased there before he decided to adopt a
>> >> #  new way. And you know as me that this could have happen only
>> >> #  after the summer of 1942 at least, or after July 1942.
>> >> #  One could suggest that Hoess did an error with a date, but
>> >> #  an error with a fictive visit?....
>> >> 
>> >> Post the whole part of Hoess' testimony, so we can see exactly
>> >> what he said. Possibly, he considered at some stage to shift
>> >> to using engine exhaust, and visited Treblinka to see if this
>> >> was a good idea or not. But, again, Treblinka began operating
>> >> only after mid-1942, and Zyklon-B was used to murder people
>> >> in Auschwitz since the end of 1941.
>> 
>> >"I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer
>> >being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.
>> 
>> >"Treblinka was built directly near the railroad tracks and had several
>> >chambers capable of holding hundreds of people. The JEws went straight
>> >into the gas chambers without undressing by way of a platform which was
>> >level with the railroad cars. And engine room equipped with various types
>> >of engines taken from large trucks and tanks had been built next to the
>> >gas chambers. These were started up and the exhaust gases were fed by
>> >pipes into the gas chambers, thereby killing the people inside. The
>> >process was continued for more than a half hour until eveything was silent
>> >inside the rooms. In an hour's time, the gs chambers were opened and the
>> >bodies were taken out, undressed, and burned on  frame made from mtal
>> >railroad tracks.
>> 
>> Here we have a minor contradiction of another true truth
>> regarding the time to kill but it introduces a major problem with
>> another true truth of the 1000 per hour throughput rate for
>> gassing at this place.  

>IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as he is want to do, "discombulates"
>Ho"ss's memoirs to make a fallacious assertion. In September of 1942 ten
>larger new gas chambers were contructed to replace the older ones at
>Treblinka. The new gas chambers held a maximum of 2,300 people (six
>chambers) or 3,800 people (ten chambers) _simultaneously_, while the old
>ones held only 600 people. Clearly, even it took an hour to gas the
>victims, on evarage, that would have still been in excess of 1,000 people
>per hour. 

	Now you have gone and made it worse as the original post had the
buildings the size of 30 freight cars with only a 1000 per hour
capacity.  Now we have ten buildings roughly the size of eleven
freight cars each and not a sign left of them or dozens of
engines and their buildings plus normal living buildings or all
the rest that is needed.  

	And yet this contradicts another true truth by an eyewitness
which put the throughput at on 1000 per hour.  It appears that at
any time they could have gotten rid of all 3000 from that story
in one hour.

	All of that in addition to the 2000 tons or so of bone ash that
is missing.

>Source:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.gas4

>> >"The fires were fed with wood, and the bodies were sprayed every once in a
>> >while with used oil. During my visit everyone who was gassed was dead. But
>> >I was told that performance of the engines was not always consistant, so
>> >that the exhaust gases were often not strong enough to kill everyone in
>> >the chambers. Many of them were only unconscious and had to be finished
>> >off by shooting them. I had heard the same story in Chelmno, and I was
>> >told by Eichmann that these problems had occurred in other places.
>> 
>> And here we have the occasional use of a bullet being the sole
>> reason to switch to the much more hazardous HCN which was of
>> course commonly handled by orderlies and occasionally by the head
>> of political correctness at Auschwitz.

>IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as he is want to do, "discombulates"
>Ho"ss's memoirs regarding the decision to not choose shooting, which was
>decided in a meeting with Eichmann in the summer of 1941, with Ho"ss's
>visit to Treblinka, which did not enter service as an exterminatin camp
>until the summer of 1942. This well after the decision to use Zyklon B as
>the homicidal agent at Auschwitz. (_Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_. p.
>1482.) 

	We still have a problem with the existance of this place as a
exterination camp in the first place.  Now that we have so many
huge buildings and facilities that have vanished without a trace
including foundations and footings.

>In addition, Ho"ss and Eichmann decided against extermination by shooting
>at Auschwitz, as well as the use of engine exhaust, in their meeting
>apparently due to the experiences of the Einsatzgruppen, as they discussed
>killing with engine exhaust in referernce to the gas vans, and because
>Treblinka was not operating as an extermination camp at the time. (_Death
>Dealer_, p.28)

	All you have here is a paragraph that avoids any mention of
anything that could be checked against physical law.

>> >"Another problem which arose in Chelmno was that the Jews sometimes broke
>> >the sides of the trucks and attempted to escape.
>> 
>> >"Experiance has shown that the prussic acid called Cyclon B caused death
>> >with far greater speed and certainty, especially if the rooms were kept
>> >dry and airtight with the people packed closely together, and provided
>> >they were fitted with as large a number of intake vents as possible. So
>> >far as Auschwitz is concerned, I have never known or heard of a single
>> >person being found alive when the gas chambers were opened a half an hour
>> >after the gas had been poured in.*
>> 
>> >Source: _Death Dealer: the memoirs of the SS kommandant at Auschwitz_; 
>> >pp.42-43.
>> 
>> This must have been a bitch of a problem at the modified morges.
>> One presumes the term Leichen in Leichenkeller refers to what
>> grew in the dampness.  Of course that would have been simply a
>> generic name or perhaps one of the German language experts here
>> find a different meaning for leichen.  

>MAJOR LINGUISTIC STUPIDITY ALERT: Giwer, yet again demonstrates his gross
>stupidity in regards to the German language. The word "Leichen" in German
>means "corpse" and not as Giwer, in his profound ignorance, evidently
>believes means "lichen," as in the fungus/algae symbiote. 

	You refuse to answer my questions about these rooms.

>> It is also unclear what he is referring to with "large number of
>> intake vents" unless it is a reference to places where gas was
>> introduced.  Yet we consistantly read of one or two person
>> introductions into rather small places.  

>NUMERICAL/SPATIAL IGNORANCE ALERT: Giwer, eager to demonstrate his lack of
>critical thinking, blindly assumes that a "large number of intake vents"
>means the intake vents were large in _size_, and not as rational people
>would, a large enough _number_ of vents to ensure the rapid distribution
>of the HCN gas from the Zyklon B. 

>>If anything is clear here it is that whatever Hoess knew about the 
>>process, save for the airtight feature in common with bomb shelters, 
>>was never incoporated into the design changes to the morgues.

>BEATING DEAD HORSE ALERT: Giwer, always willing to beat a dead horse,
>seeks any straw to grasp so as to try and rehabilitate his defunct
>rationalization that the L.Keller 1s were "bomb shelters." In yet another
>stellar example of his amazing stupidity he makes the fallacious claim
>that Ho"ss, the commandant of Auschwitz, was not aware of the details of
>the gas chambers. In truth, Ho"ss, in his memoirs, was quite explicit in
>describing the details of the gassing process in the bunkers as well as in
>the Kremas. Furthermore, Ho"ss, by his own admission, personally witnessed
>countless gassings. 

	You refuse to answer my questions about these rooms.

>> Obviously they would have needed to have been kept dry and there
>> would need be many large place to introduce this gas.  Instead we
>> find an underground room chosen as opposed to an above ground
>> "undressing room" and a maximum of four vents each 9 inches
>> square.  

>IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, aside from again eagerly repeating his lack
>of critical thinking, by dogmatically assuming that a "large number of
>intake vents" means the intake vents were large in _size_, fails yet again
>to comprehend why the L.Kellers where converted into gas chambers. (Hint:
>it had to do with the cold winter weather and the bunkers.) He also
>ignores that Kremas IV and V, which were constructed in the same
>time-frame as Kremas II and III _did_ have above-ground gas chambers, also
>with a "large number of intake vents". 

>Giwer, also fails to grasp, in the case of L.Keller 1, that four
>introduction columns, placed along the length of the gas chamber, and with
>their small "vent" holes, was more than sufficient to ensure the rabid
>spread of the HCN gas. The size of the vent holes, as well as the size of
>the removeable core of the introduction columns was more than adequate as
>the amount of Zyklon B poured into each introduction column was small.
>Typically 1.5 kg per column ,for a total of 6 kg, was dispensed for a
>gassing that used the entire L.Keller to murder 1,500 people in about 5 to
>10 minutes. 

	You refuse to answer my questions about these rooms because you
have no answers that even you can take seriously.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:29 PDT 1996
Article: 35146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:45:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <4mm6l5$n2u@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06  7:48:37 PM CDT 1996
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>>>>>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>>>>>>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post. 

>>>>>>	I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>>>>>Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>>>>>it a gas chamber?

>>>>>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>>>>>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>>>>	It is black and white so there is no evidence of any color.  It
>>>>is not clear that the walls are made of sheet iron so it is
>>>>unclear what blue would have formed from.  

>>>Really? Ooops. I recall it now. I have a color picture of that same
>>>room and the walls are blue. The caption on the pictures says what I
>>>said above. I believe the title of the book is _The World Must Know_.

>>	Get your story straight at least.  The picture shows nothing
>>indicative of any gassing.  There was a very long holohugger post
>>here demonstrating quite clearly that blue could only form as the
>>third valence state of iron.  

>Provide us with the citations of thses claims and quotes if yo have
>them. I know you won't, but you will note that us fine holohuggers
>tend to post our evidence with our claims. You do not. I don't own a
>scanner.

	You really do have a problem with your newsfeed.  It was back
when I stated reason for the TRUE EYEWITNESS description of
Zyklon B pellets as blue was because it was HCN.  Then a
holohugger clearly proved the eyewitness was lying by posting
that the color only occurs when in combination with iron.

>>	Now post your color picture and the evidence that the walls were
>>iron and at least you have the first leg to stand on for your
>>claim.  

>Giwer I don't even own a b/w scanner. You want to buy me a color and
>I'll darn well post it. OR you can go to a book. The walls are not
>iron. This is obvious from the picture. 

	I know that.

>The door was metal 

	However the door appears to be wood due to the vertical markings
and there does appear to be a handle on the inside along with the
two rectangular objects on the left wall.

and it has
>no colorization except maybe around the edges. The walls are brick
>with plaster coating. There is more blue on one wall than on the
>other. This appears to be the wall closest to the pipe. The book is
>called _The World Must Know_ by Michael Berenbaum, Phd. The picture is
>on 138. So go to the library and look at the picture or go to the book
>store and look at the picture. You don't even have to buy the book.

	As HCN does not react with plaster to form a blue compound it is
difficult to see what looking at a difference picture would add
to this claim.  

	It is simply a room.  Nothing more.





-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:30 PDT 1996
Article: 35147 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news.jsums.edu!neonlights.uoregon.edu!platform.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Turner Diaries
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:14:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4mm8cb$du2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4m6dj7$op7@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m6muu$nlr@news1.panix.com> <4m7h0o$47s@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m8gi9$79g@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4m943o$jh2@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4me5q8$n48@news1.panix.com> < <4mipch$4ec@news.nyu.edu>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: 4mhkm1$npo@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution: 

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>: 
>: >bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) wrote:
>: 
>: >>Rich Graves replies to me:
>: 
>: >>>>I'll be happy to send you the WHOLE fare for a ONE-WAY ticket to Israel.
>: >> 
>: >>> I'll gladly accept that. You have my address. Small, unmarked bills
>: >>> please, like the ones Bobby preferred.
>: 
>: >>The offer was directed to Mathis only, I didn't say WHEN I would deliver
>: >>on the offer, and I didn't specify the means of transportation.  ;-)
>: 
>: >You did, however, say that YOU, Milton Kleim Jr., would supply me with
>: >a ticket.
>: 
>: >I have lawyers reading the statement, presently.
>: 
>: >Or perhaps not.
>: 
>: 	Is it not amazing that after a decade of children implying law
>: suits that there has been exactly one of them?  

>Isn't amazing that the Giwer has no sense of humor?

>: 
>: 	I would think you would grow up or learn where in the the hell
>: you are posting.

>Oh, that's right -- humor isn't allowed on USENET.

	You now try to give dignity to childish threats by calling them
humor?  

	You must think I discovered public debate as recently as you
have.  

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 35148 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:15:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4mmti0$g38@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m90eb$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
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dreilley@pinc.com (David Reilley) wrote:

>In article <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>>>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>>>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)


>>        Ah, yes.  Jews never forget.  At least you are one of the most
>>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life.  

>McVay -- now there's a nice Jewish name!

	You have never heard of the amen corner?  As in the mayor of New
York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus
on the same line that was bombed.  And of course by implication,
just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything
while he was riding it.  But of course is sold to the people back
home who can't think.  

	As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones
discovers a person is Jewish by what they say.  In the case I was
thinking about the person said "we were talking in temple" and
his name was Joe Nelson.  Not a particularly Jewish name.  

	But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their
pro-gassing posts with "I am not Jewish but ..." and that is the
amen corner.

---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 35149 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians Agree: Goldhagen is a Schmuck
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:17:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4mm8hi$du2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4maoeo$e2k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <3MAY199606334961@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4meu5r$199@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4MAY199607300125@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4meu5r$199@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>>>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>>>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>>>in David Crosby's septum."
>>>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>> 
>>	Just for the record, you would do better to find a quote from
>>"Network" which was the first exposition of it and it certainly
>>started around the time Limbaugh was in diapers or high school at
>>best.  

>    Giwer is once again showing a lack of understanding of history.  The
>    era of news and entertainment commingling did not stanrt with _Network_
>    in the late 70s.  Commingling can be traced back AT LEAST as far as the
>    madrigals of the middle ages.  Editorial cartoons of the 18th and 19th
>    centuries are other examples of commingling which predate _Network_. 
>    In the movies the topic was touched upon in _Citizen Kane_ among
>    others.  Modern commingling of TV News and entertainment can be traced
>    back to Edward R. Murrow in the mid-fifties.

	I was only suggesting a better source for quotable material than
this book written by a skinny little idiot.

>    Giwer, I plead ignorant when the chemistry issues are discussed.  Maybe
>    you should consider pleading ignorant when history is discussed.

	Maybe you should not take what I write as more than I write.

>>	It never ceases to amaze me that skinny little idiots like
>>Franken think this is a new phenomenon or that people actually
>>think it is something new.

>    I suspect that Franken knows he is not being original in his approach. 
>    He is simply tryig to commingle news and entertainment to make a buck.

	He always has.

-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:32 PDT 1996
Article: 35150 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:37:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4mm9lt$p2a@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>: 
>: >>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>: >>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>: >>  
>: >>  >>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>: >>  >  
>: >>  >>  	Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>: >>  >>  there is none.
>: >>  
>: >>  >	You continue to make this assertion.  You have yet to explain why 
>: >>  >Maloney and Frank, two men convicted on testimony without physical 
>: >evidence (in 
>: >>  >Frank's case the prosecutors deliberately did not produce physical evidence 
>: >that 
>: >>  >was in their posession) still languish in Graterford State Prison.  Nor have you 
>: >gotten 
>: >>  >off your fat duff to explain to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that this 
>: >miscarriage of 
>: >>  >justice was perpetrated. 
>: >>  
>: >>  	Will you explain why testimony is not given a number and kept in
>: >>  the property room?
>: 
>: >	This is silly.  It is taken under oath both by the person testifying and the 
>: >person making a record of it.  I can conceive of no reason to keep it in a 
>: >"propertry room."  I have never even heard of a Court maintaining a "property 
>: >room" for evidence.   In every court of which I am aware exhibits admitted into 
>: >evidence are stored by the clerk (in Pennsylvania "prothonotary") *with* the 
>: >pleadings and the transcript of testimony (if printed).  It is most certainly given a 
>: >"number" for the simple reason that it might have to be found later.
>: 
>: 	One more time.  Even for those whose only knowledge of such
>: matters is the OJ trial.  Evidence is something tangible,
>: something that is not subject to fallable memory or fallable
>: statement of that memory.  

>Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Evidence is that which tends to make more likely the
>conclusion that the crime was or was not committed.  Testimony is among
>that evidence.

	Now we have just had one exercise in the FRE based upon my
comment upon the touching faith in death beds confessions and
after a few go arounds, we find the FRE have no such touching
faith save in one exception that is similar to "Joe shot me."

	Are we going to have to go through this again?  Prior testimony
can certainly be used as evidence in a present trial.  That is
not in question.  And certainly a deposition from a person who
can not appear at a trial can be used as evidence as can a
videotape in currently popular case.   

	But in the case we are talking about we have evidence and what is
said about the evidence.

>: 	If you have been paying attention to the Whitewater trial you
>: will note that previous statements of witnesses are being used to
>: impugn the present statements.  It is the transcript of the
>: previous statements that were introduced into evidence not the
>: present testimony.  The present testimony can be introduced, as a
>: transcript, into evidence in an appeal.

>Mr. GIwer, the use of transcripts in prior statements is done because that
>evidence is under oath, and therefore more reliable.  Present statements
>can also be introduced, despite what you say.  In fact, present testimony
>is more desirable than prior statements under oath, which are let in as an
>*exception* to the hearsay rule.

	Since, save for some rare exceptions, the prior testimony can not
contain hearsay, how can the use of it be an exception to
hearsay?  and not be mentioned in the FRE list of exceptions that
is?

>Where did you learn law, from the pimply typhus expert?
>: 
>: 	Why do I have to continue to explain this to a professed
>: attorney?  Does this attorney get an ego boost from the adulation
>: of those who know less than he does?  
>: 
>: 	Are you certain you are practicing or are you just too many years
>: away from being a trial attorney to remember these details?

>Or maybe you just got it all wrong, Matty-o.

	Or maybe this attorney can not survive without being defended
with your expert legal opinion based upon years of practice?  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:33 PDT 1996
Article: 35151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:04:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: ras@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution: 

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: 
>: >In article <4mccn0$nq2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: 
>: >> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: >> 
>: >> >Matt Giwer  wrote:
>: >> 
>: >> ># You are quite confused about IQ if you believe it has anything to
>: >> ># do with guessing.  
>: >> 
>: >> >Does this mean that your answer to the question "why did a 'work
>: >> >camp' have so many cremation furnaces and morgue space?" - is "I
>: >> >don't know"?
>: >> 
>: >> Not in the least.  Such a capital investment would have had a
>: >> design criteria that would have given a maximum expected
>: >> throughput rate plus as much more as the designers could add to
>: >> it, usually an engineering double.  If it went through two levels
>: >> of engineering a doubling at each level is common.  
>: 
>: >BULLSHIT ALERT: Here Giwer demonstrates the "if you don't have the answer,
>: >then baffle them with bullshit" denier technique. Giwer's "engineering
>: >double" is specious bullshit in the extreme. 
>: 
>: 	You refuse to answer any question about your implication that
>: either a morgue or a gas chamber needs a more expensive type of
>: roof.  

>MAJOR DODGE ALERT:  If one just looks up, there was no "question" by Mr.
>Giwer, there was a question TO Mr. Giwer, namely "Why did a work camp have
>so many cremation furnaces and morgue spaces?"  

	And now a clear lie that the questions have been editted out or
perhaps they were in another message.  That does not change the
fact the person you are gratuitously defending refuses to answer
quesitons on this subject.  

	But if you agree that the life expectancy in a KZ was less that
then seven years in a Gulag you will hardly be surprised by this
capacity at the death rate would be about the same with or
without gassing.

	Further, as I have already addressed the design would be for the
peak, not for the average.  Typhus is often mentioned here but
unless there were drastically better living conditions than are
usually portrayed every winter would at least decimate the camp
>from  pneumonia and flu epidemics.  Unless sanitation were much
better than portrayed, regular cholera epidemics would be
expected.  

	Under conditions as portrayed in the camps, even the common cold
could have decimated the camps.

	And then drawing people from so many different places in Europe
one would expect all of the locally common diseases would be
spread around to those who were not areas where they were common
much made polio a nationwide problem in the US due to assembling
the WW II armies.  One would expect these diseases to include the
common ones we more or less ignore today but can be quite deadly
in adults.  

	Thus one would design for the waves of deaths, not for an annual
average death rate.  I would have thought that to be quite clear.

>: 	But then you know nothing of engineering so why would you be
>: making such a statement?  

>Gee, Mr. Giwer, I guess the same reason you keep posting bullsh*t about
>law, chemistry, etc.

	The chemist has already publically admitted he deceived you with
his statements.  We do not have such an admission from our
attorney as yet.
 
>: >Case in point is the morgue capacity at Auschwitz. The morgue capacity for
>: >the Kremas, prior to January of 1942 was roughly 1 per 300 prisoners.
>: >Compare this with Sachenhausen, which had a morgue capacity of 1 per 50
>: >prisoners. Then, on January 6, 1942, the planned morgue capacity
>: >(including backup incinerators) at Auschwitz was increased six-fold to
>: >bring it in line with the morgue capcacity of other concentratin camps by
>: >adding ten large corspe cellars. Yet, on Febraury 27, 1942, Kammler, after
>: >visiting Auschwitz, decided to removed six of the ten corspe cellars from
>: >the plan and moved the construction of the new Kremas to Birkenau. The end
>: >result was that when the Kremas were completed they had an enourmous
>: >incineration capacity and no proportional morgue capacity, was was
>: >indicative of their intended homicidal purpose. (_Anatomy_, p.144-145.) 
>: 
>: >So much for "engineering a doubling at each level."
>: 
>: 	This says not one word about the design process as you can
>: plainly read.  If nothing else it clearly ignores maintence time,
>: as in cooling down to clean out the clinkers and ashes and the
>: like.  This is simply some one as ignorant as you not knowing the
>: first thing about engineering.
>: 
>: 	Obviously it presumes 100% availability (that is a technical term
>: and it is impossible to acheive.)  
>: 
>: >> This is nothing uncommon in engineering.  Yet you are hanging one
>: >> of your hats on it.
>: 
>: >BULLSHIT ALERT: Here Giwer again demonstrates the "if you don't have the
>: >answer, then baffle them with bullshit" denier technique. Giwer's "nothing
>: >uncommon in engineering" is anything BUT "common engineering." One does
>: >not design cremation facilities who's capacity could exceed the camp's
>: >requirements by twenty times and call it a "common" engineering practice. 
>: 
>: 	Your ignorance of engineering does not give a basis for this
>: statement.  In other words, knowing you are completely ignorant
>: of engineering, you are contradicting me who has 20 years
>: experience in engineering.  Who but a holohugger would take you
>: seriously?  
>: 
>: 	You who refuses to answer any question asked that is.
>: 
>Uh, el Giwero, are you saying it's common engineering practice to build a
>crematory with 20 times the capacity of the expected rate?  If so, what do
>you base this on?

	As above, one designs for the peak not the average.  

>: >> ># The undressing room is claimed to have been above ground and is
>: >> ># clearly shown to be so in the K4 picture.  
>: >> 
>: >> >God, have mercy on us. 
>: >> 
>: >> At least you did not hyphenate it.
>: >>         
>: >> >Giwer, I'm talking about KREMAS II & III. Their gas chambers
>: >> >and undressing rooms were underground. I'm NOT talking about 
>: >> >Krema IV, which was above ground level. 
>: >> 
>: >> I will deal this this new assertion later.  However I note that
>: >> others have posted that the undressing room was above ground.
>: >> But hereinafter and so far as you are concerned, they were above
>: >> ground. 
>: 
>: >GIWER-PACKPEDALING ALERT: Giwer should be full aware by now that the
>: >Kremas under discussian are Kremas II and III, as he's been explicity told
>: >enough times. And of course, no knowledgeable person has posted that the
>: >undressing room of Kremas II and III were above ground. Only Giwer, the
>: >unwashed pig, has. That he feigns suprise that the discussion is about
>: >Kremas II and III simply evidences his being the wretched little coward
>: >and liar he is. 
>: 
>: Dear schoolboy,
>: 
>: 	Answer the questions you were asked and stop pretending to know
>: more than your betters.

>If any of his betters shows up and asks him a question, I'm sure he'll
>answer it.  In the meantime, this lovely little response in no way deals
>with the Krema II & III issue.  BUt what the heck:  after all
>"Leichen=Leichen," right, Mr. Giwer?

	I have had getting such a dictionary on my "to do" list for quite
some time.  Should I get around to it I do not expect to be
surprised but rather to find the assertions on the order of those
of one of our resident chemists.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:33 PDT 1996
Article: 35157 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: eye witness testimony and is value
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:15:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	Of course a defendent always has the opportunity to waive a jury
>>  and have it heard on the facts by the judge.  However, being
>>  denied the opportunity for a jury trial in the matter of a felony
>>  would certainly be grounds for overturning the conviction.  

>	Assuming your statement is correct (and it is not in most countries) you 
>would still have to show a demand for a jury trial.  Please do so.

	There are primitive countries but I await your posting of Western
European countries where this is not a true statement.

>>  	As for Europe, it will be interesting to see which countries you
>>  name outside of the ex-Soviet Union that does not mandate that as
>>  a basic right, something about it in the UN rights document also
>>  as I remember. 

>	France does not.  Germany does not.  Italy does not.  Spain does not.  
>Belgium does not.  Poland does not.  Austria does not. Monaco does not.  
>Sweden does not.  Denmark does not. The Netherlands do not.  Switzerland does 
>not.  Luxembourg does not.  Hungary does not.  Roumania does not.  Greece 
>does not.  Finland does not.  Norway does not.  In none of those countries is there 
>a mandated basic right to a jury trial in criminal matters.

	It is interesting to see your assertion of so many countries
acting contrary to the UN Declaration of Rights on the matter.
One has to wonder why there were so many signatories to the
declaration.

>	--YFE

	Yes, kilfile challenged one.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:34 PDT 1996
Article: 35158 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:06:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4lvdug$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Why did they so badly mismatch the capacity of the morgues and
>> the Kremas?  

>It's really very simple, Giwer: Because the Nazis built this enourmous
>cremation capacity, as they were intent on killing as many Jews as fast as
>they could and incinerating them as fast as they could. 

	That does not address the question of the great mismatch of
design capacity.  



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:27:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4m3bfc$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>The question is "why, *in your opinion*, did the SS design
>>>5 huge crematoriums with such an enormous morgue space, all
>>>for a 'work camp'"?
>>
>>	Sir, I do not know why.  You people have stipulated they were
>>designed as morgues.  Ask if of yourselves why you holohuggers
>>have been making that stipulation.  

>    It comes from the research of Robert Jan Van Pelt, an architect by
>training, who studied the progression of the design drawings, which had
>two underground rooms which were both labeled "morgue."  The earliest
>drawings had features consistent with a morgue and inconsistent with a gas
>chamber, such as a chute on top for sliding bodies down.  This handy
>feature was eliminated from later designs, making it much more difficult
>and time-consuming to fill the apparent morgue with bodies.  Yet the
>drawings persisted in calling both the large underground rooms morgues. 
>Yet the letter from Bischoff to Kammler at the end of construction
>referred to _one_ morgue and one "Vergasungskeller."  Yet nobody has named
>any external structure which might be this "Vergasungskeller," or any
>documents or design drawings of same. 

>    Evidently the Nazis themselves could not agree on what they were
>building.  Why don't you complain to them? 

	Perhaps you will explain the construction of the roof that is a
feature of either a morgue or a gas chamber?  Will you explain
the features is has in common with a bomb shelter?  

	But your last sentence is quite interesting as I was informed
just a couple days ago that they were at some point labled
Vergasungskeller.  
	
	Perhaps this letter is referring to some other structure as it
has no apparent connection to this structure.

	And then there was the go around on Gaswagen meaning
Vergasungswagen.  

	As noted elsewhere, when I get that German-English dictionary I
do not expect to be surprised by what I find.  


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35162 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:38:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>>in World War Two.  But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>>much for me.  How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>>this?

>    Holocaust deniers maintain that the tale grows in the telling, and I
>must admit they have a point.  A witness says that fat was collected in
>buckets, or that a trench was dug, and before you know it, someone says
>there were "rivers" of fat.

	They are also saying that human fat only burns the second time it
is exposed to fire, that it is not absorbed into the heat dried
dirt, and that the bottom of this huge pit was laid out by a
surveyor with such precision that there was in fact a downhill
slope.  

	Remember?  We were over this before when our California chemist
deceived so many of his fellow holohuggers with his implication
that bones do not burn as he did not want to hear about the fat
be absorbed, wicked and burning as in any BBQ.  

	You do remember that example of how far even a professional [sic]
chemist will go to preserve an obviously absurd story?


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35163 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:42:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4lupgt$lnp@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>>   By the way Mr Van Alstine, before to continue, I would like to know what
>>   was exactly your reference about those burning pits were the germans were
>>   suppose to burn bodies and collect fat, especially the one where it is
>say that the Germans dig up larger trench just for the sake of fat
>collection.
>>  I'll go to the library Sunday and Monday and I'd like to take a look at that
>> stuff, if it is not asking you too much.


>Mr. Beaulieu, you can find references from which fat was collected as fuel
>for the fire in the incineration pits in:

>_The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.629.

>_Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.463.

	And you can read about ancient astronauts in "Chariots of the
Gods," by Eric von Daniken.  

	You can find "eyewitnesses" to Victorian house flying through the
sky with people in the windows waving to people in the ground in
"Lo!" by Charles Fort.

	So what is your point?

	You know there was clear deception on this point the last time we
went over it.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:37 PDT 1996
Article: 35164 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:51:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 143
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References: <317b9ec0.6352405@news.pacificnet.net> <4m13oq$6p9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4me38l$1lv@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4mf8kk$42s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mgflv$730@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4mf8kk$42s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4m13oq$6p9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>
>>>>>## "Cool off"? How much? 
>>>>
>>>>># Our resident chemist is going to post the equations on that real
>>>>># soon now.  
>>
>>>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer missed this post.  I leave out only what can be done
>>>by someone with a reasonable high school education:
>>
>>	I may have missed the equations but there are none here, in
>>addition to your bone burning and HCN lies.
>>
>>>We know the evaporation rate of HCN is very fast.  
>>
>>	We know nothing without a number readily available to any real
>>chemist.
>>
>>Even DT has
>>>acknowleged this fact.  His worry seems to be that since some
>>>of the HCN freezes that perhaps its rate of evaporation decreases
>>>substantially enough that one would have to add an unrealistically
>>>large amount of HCN to get enough to evaporate fast enough.
>>
>>	More bullshit.  The freezing point can not be acheived by
>>evaporation.

>Agreed.  I have proved this by showing that at most 25% of the HCN
>present could reach its freezing point.

	You have proved nothing without equations and numbers, neither of
which you appear to know, Mr. Chemist. 

>>>(Others have pointed out that the chambers were heated, that large
>>>amounts were used and that the Sonderkommando wore gas mask.)
>>
>>>Notwithstanding the fact that even frozen HCN has a significant vapor
>>>pressure I wondered about how much of the HCN could freeze.  It turns
>>>out that atleast 25% of the HCN added cannot possibly freeze and that
>>>is an underestimate because I assumed that all the heat required for
>>>vaporization came from liquid HCN initially at 0 C.  I leave the
>>>calculation as an exercise for your edification (I can post it if
>>>anyone has doubts).
>>
>>>The heat of vaporization of HCN is 6.03 kcal/mol (at 25 C) [I assume
>>>	it's roughly constant over the T range of interest.]
>>>The heat of fusion of HCN is       1.72 kcal/mol (at -13.2 C)
>>>Specific Heat of HCN              16.94 cal/molC (at 16.9 C) [I assume
>>>	it's roughly constant.]
>>
>>	Nothing here answers the mail but your fellow and equallly
>>ignorant holohuggers will claim that one of these numbers is
>>vapor pressure.   

>I have provide these vapor pressures numerous times:

>T (C)		Torr

>-20		100
>0		260
>10		410
>20		610
>30		900

>From DuPont's "Hydrogen Cyanide: Uses, Storage, and Handling"

	More deliberate deception.  Now you are expecting the holohuggers
who do not know any better not to notice that you are postulating
that Zyklon B was used under a partial vacuum.  

>>You are clearly a liar.

>Mr. Giwer cannot document this accusation.

	Partial vacuum vapor pressures?  No equations?  "Prove I said
that bones do not burn"?

>>>So HCN evaporates rapidly.  25% cannot freeze.  Even the HCN that
>>>freezes has a significant vapor pressure.  The gaseous HCN diffuses
>>>quickly enough that toxic concentrations are reached well before
>>>15 minutes. The Nazis could have used well in excess of what
>>>was necessary without practical problems.  All of these facts
>>>underestimate the concentration because the chambers were heated.
>>
>>>I can of course repost my diffusion post if necessary.
>>
>>	I suggest that you wait until you get into your second year of
>>chemistry that they refrane from further posting.  But put back
>>your original sig of PhD candidate so I can call and verify it.

>If I waited till my second year of chemistry, I could have posted years
>ago.  My credentials are not at issue, my arguments are; you're
>inability to understand is not my problem.  I am, however, a PhD.
>candidate in the Department of Chemistry at Stanford University.

	Your deliberate deception, unethical use of credentials, is
obvious to anyone who cares to read honestly rather than blindly
support you.  You are lying one way or the other.

>>>>>## And, anyway, the vapor pressure is still
>>>>>## way above the lethal concentration, even at low temperatures.
>>>>
>>>>># Vapor pressure is not concentration.  It is not clear what you
>>>>># are trying to say nor how you might know it.
>>
>>>ERROR ALERT:  vapor pressure is concentration in convenenient units.
>>>Now one should be careful to distinguish between equilibrium vapor
>>>pressure and vapor pressure.
>>
>>	Yes, PhD candidate, what is the vapor pressure and what are the
>>equations?  Of  course not.  

>I gave you the vapor pressure at various temperatures above.

	And you are imply it was used under partial vacuum conditions.

>>You never understood what I meant by P Chem in the first place.  

>P. Chem usually refers to Physical Chemistry, the field in which I work.
>It is actually quite a vague term as there are many sub-fields.  My
>field happens to be Reaction Dynamics.

>I do not understand what you mean by "the P Chem equations" as there are
>an infinite number of equations that one could refer to in that manner.

	I did not think you would have any knowledge of that course you
took as an undergraduate.  It was in the Junior year in my time.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35165 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:57:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 10:01:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:


>After reading through Giwer's post, even as a "non-science person," I can
>understand enough to say:

>Give it up, GIwer.  You're spouting who-knows-what instead of science.
>Repeately telling Mr. Green that he doesn't know chemistry does not in any
>way answer anything he's said.

	So you missed his implication that Zyklon B was used under
condition of a partial vacuum.  Yes, you truly know nothing of
science.  You are not capable of judging.  You even missed the
complete lack of equations and his failure to have ever taken a
standard undergraduate course.   Next of course he will claim he
did not take biochem either.  
	
	But in fact he might know chemistry but he has already admitted
he was deliberately deceiving people like you with his "bones
don't burn" FALSE implication.  You did read his message where he
said "show where i said exactly that" did you not?

>Tell us again how you're only here for rational discussion, el Giwero.

	I would settle for honest discussion at this point.  
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35166 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 03:26:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4mmg4r$45s@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 10:30:35 PM CDT 1996
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Fascinating that another educated chemist does not simply use any
>>of his standard reference material to simply post the equations
>>that would give a ballpark first order approximation for the rate
>>of outgassing.  
>>
>>	But it appears that two highly educated chemists in a row appear
>>to wish to rely upon handwaving rather what for them would be
>>such a minor task.  

>    Why should they go to the trouble of doing so for a person who is not
>capable of understanding or verifying the correctness of the equations?
>What is the point?

	Quite to the contrary it would not be simply for me but also the
first time anyone has done such a think and it would be a great
contribution to the entire pro-holocaust position.  In fact there
are enough technical issues in the subject that a toxicologist
and a chemist could certainly put together a very publishable
book on the subject.  

	That such a book does not exist is quite noteworthy by its
absense.  It is certainly a gaping omission in what could
otherwise be much more complete story and one that people such as
I who have no interest in further conflicting eyewitness
testimony could be easily referred to.  

	And please do not tell me Pressac is one as what has been posted
>from  his book is patently absurd.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35167 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, uber alles
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 03:54:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 137
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >
>> >[The Giwer .sig]
>> >
>> ># What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>Anything Giwer claims to be the truth, needs protection, mainly 
>because it isn't the truth. He knows it, the whole world knows it. 
>Truth of any kind is irrelivant, according to Dr. Matt Giwer (of the 
>69 IQ) He spells better, knows more smart words, because he works with 
>a team of twenty or thirty historical exerps. Just axe him. He'll 
>always defend himself, even if should accidently be right.

	That is not quite an answer to the question.

>clips
>>         The holohuggers support each other in claiming things are lies
>> when in fact they are not.

>When has Giwer ever offered proof for any statements he makes under 
>the cloak of his 169 IQ (sorry I meant 69) He never offers proof, 
>simply because he has no proof. He also lies because he has no truths. 

	You must keep in mind that the persons making the assertion bears
the burden of proof.  In questioning and challenging, I bear no
burden of proof.
 
>>         Holohuggers are willfully deceitful about bones burning and HCN
>> being released by coke fires.

>What is a "Holohugger" according to Dr. Giwer? People who support the 
>truth regarding historical facts do not have to be deceitful. Truth 
>and history (not to mention common sense) are on our side.

	I have never made such a lofty claim as a PhD or MD.  But in fact
all you have on your side is eyewitness testimony that conflicts
with itself and with physical law.

>The Nazis could and did gas and burn to ashes up to 6,000 people per 

	Yet there is no sign of the 50 tons of ash per acre at Treblinka.
The best they found were a couple of bone fragments.  Why is
that?  There are no convient rivers as are invoked for A-B.  

>day, seven days a week, when everything was in good working order. Who 
>says so: The Commandant of Auschwitz that's who. Would he lie? 

	Why would he write what amounted to his own death warrant prior
to his trial?  That is something right out of a Perry Mason TV
show.  Of course it is also like Ted Bundy but those people are
rather rare and the SS appears to have been completely staffed by
such people.  

>He was already condemed to he hanged. So Hoess took his time, two 
>years in a Polish prison and wrote his thoughts and deeds down for 
>posterity. Then he went peacefully to his death, knowing he had made 
>peace with his God.

	You should have read Nizkor before you posted this.  He was hung
one month after being convicted for killing Russian citizens.
The trial took so long to get around to because he was testifying
against his superiors at Nuremberg.  

	It was only after he was turned over to the Russians in early
1947 that he was subjected to two trials and acquitted of the
first charges.  His two trials while being prosecuted by General
Rudenko were back to back.  
 
	I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine the charges
in the first trial where he was acquitted.

>>         Holohuggers are also deceitful when they identify any questioner
>> of the gassing stories as anti-semitic and neo-nazi.

>Barry Goldwater once said :"if it walks like a duck, quacks like a 
>duck, swims like a duck, more than likely it is a duck."
>This analogy applies to folks who act like neo-nazis, talk 
>antisemitic, and other-wise deny the Holocaust is in truth historical 
>facts. 

	He was hardly the first to say that.  But in fact, General, what
was your connection to that visit to the A-B?  But if you had
been here longer, I was first called anti-semitic for merely
questioning the details of the gassing stories.  And those
question have yet to be answered in any technical manner and as
you have noticed even a "chemist" has deliberately deceived
people.
 
>>         Holohuggers have beliefs that are fixed and find it impossible to
>> entertain an alternate explanation.

>On the other hand, anti-semitic folks, and neo-nazi folks are very 
>flexible and willing to compremise when truths appear, and their 
>hypocrites begins to surface. Their minds can be improved with a few 
>well proven historical facts.

	But any rational person knows that history is revised regularly
and that it is generally considered sevearal generations before
the emotional load of major event permits unemotional viewing of
history.  You were so effected by what you saw over 50 years ago
that you can not view it dispassionately.  My father's opinion of
the Japanese, many of whom he killed, is like yours.

	Even though it is clear there are problems with the stories as
told, problems with the lack of physical evidence, some people
still insist upon calling names rather than addess the issues.
 
>>         Holohuggers start with conclusions and study the facts until they
>> confess.

>On the other hand neo-nazis and anti-semitc scholors create their own 
>facts, and their conclusions are called forgone conclusions.
>Chuck Ferree
>Holocaust Witness & Liberator

	You participation in that trip to A-B was what?

	Figured out how the internet works yet?

	Finished with your silly threats?


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:40 PDT 1996
Article: 35193 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:19:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4mbc60$fi3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02  5:15:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4m1gfc$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	But if you folks would like to agree with me on the unreliability
>>of evidence that has passed through Soviet hands we can reject
>>both all of the Demjanjuk and all of the gassing evidence
>>equally.  

>    Excuse me good sir but I do know of one piece of gassing evidence that
>I believe meets even your tough standards: the letter from Becker to Rauff
>about gassing vans. 

>URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/chelmno/
>becker-to-rauff.051642

>    Rauff was deposed in 1972 in Chile (which makes it hard to imagine
>what pressure could be brought to bear on him) and confirmed receiving
>correspondence from Becker about gassing vans. 

>        Es ist richtig, dass ich "uber den Einsatz der Gaswagen etwas von
>        Becker bekommen habe. Ich selbst hatte Becker  gesagt, mir einen
>        entsprechenden Bericht zuzusenden.

>   My translation:

>    "It is correct, that I received something from Becker about the
>introduction of the gassing van.  I myself had told Becker to send me a
>corresponding report."

	Gaswagen is a noun.  Your translation is like airplane into
airing plane.  

>URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rauff.walter/
>Walter-Rauff.1972.txt

>    Physical evidence corroborated by eyewitness testimony is what I
>believe you asked for.  Now you have it.

	I have evidence of a very poor translation.  But I am certain our
resident expert in German will swear to your translation.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:41 PDT 1996
Article: 35198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 05:04:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 141
Message-ID: <4mmlr3$9d6@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 12:07:47 AM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:912 alt.revisionism:35198 alt.conspiracy:47537

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>What we have here is a first.

>Ingrid Rimland has previously said that she doesn't understand all this
>complicated scientific stuff, and that she leaves it up to Ernst Zuendel
>to decide whether it's all true or not.  Actually, Ernst Zuendel makes
>the same claim about not understanding scientific stuff, which leaves it
>open as to which of them is actually making up whose mind.

>In any case, Ms. Rimland has now distributed pseudoscientific
>balderdash, masquerading as real science, to 6,000 people by her count.

>I am deliberately writing this refutation of that balderdash for a lay
>audience, so that she need not tune it out.  I am sending it to her in
>email.  She owes it to herself to read it.

>And she owes it to her readers to make them aware of it.

>I fear that both debts will go uncollected, but she is welcome to prove
>me wrong by providing me with her comments, and posting the URL to this
>article in her next Zgram:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01


>Ingrid Rimland (irimland@cts.com) began by quoting one anonymous source:

>> Being an Engineering graduate, I believe that math never lies, but you
>> don't have to be to understand the following logic (if you consider)
>> that one, roughly needs the heat energy of 300 Kg of coal to combust
>> one person.  Multiply this by 6 Million (the persons in question) and
>> you get 1.8 Million Tons of coal-which is way above the capacities of
>> Germany during the war.

>This is a false conclusion based on a false premise.  It does not
>require the heat energy of 300 kg of coal to burn a corpse;  once the
>temperature is high enough, a corpse self-combusts.  This provides more
>heat, which can be used to raise the temperature of the next corpse to
>the self-combustion point.

>What is self-combustion?  Well, it takes a certain amount of heat energy
>to start a log burning, after which it burns by itself and actually
>gives off heat energy.  It works the same way with meat, including human
>corpses.  Once the temperature is high enough, flesh burns and gives off
>enough heat energy to continue the combustion process without any
>additional heat energy from a fuel source -- coal or otherwise.

	Spontanious human combustion, as it is called, is an extremely
rare phenomenon.  It is so rare and so hard to explain that it
has been the subject material for folks like Charles Fort.  And
even then, it has never been complete and has been limited to
severely obese people.  

>Calculations by Rich Green, presented on this newsgroup, clearly
>demonstrate that at the temperatures used by the Nazi crematory ovens,
>the heat energy released by the burning tissue was more than sufficient
>to maintain the incineration and to evaporate the water in the body.
>(This article is emailed to Rich Green, who is invited to provide the
>calculations in a followup article.  Since this article is for a lay
>audience, I won't get too technical.)

	You need to pay attention to what has been posted.  The only
thing he has posted is me doing some trivial multiplication and I
added the energy of evaporation and he as yet to explain how he
is going to get that amount of energy out of 1/10 gm of organics.


>In fact, this is how the Nazi ovens were designed to work, starting with
>the Dachau ovens designed in 1937.  (See Gutman, Yisrael, and Michael
>Berenbaum, Eds., _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, 1995, pp.
>183-186ff.) Once they were heated to the proper temperature, no
>additional fuel was required except the corpses themselves, and cool,
>fresh air which was blown through the oven, under pressure, to aid the
>combustion process.

	Second hand sources again being of no value as at best this is an
opinion by non-engineers about a design.  It is essential to have
the original design criteria from an original source to have
anything meaningful.

>Ms. Rimland would know this if she had been reading alt.revisionism;
>this was a topic of discussion earlier this year.  But alas, she has
>decided that there is nothing on the newsgroup but mudslinging and hate.

	Yes, as we are still awaiing Green to either eliminate it it or
add it to his potential list of three deliberate deceptions.

>> The question of time.  One needs 2 hr. today with modern ovens to burn
>> one person and need to produce thousands of BTU 's of energy.  Take
>> that 2 hr. and divide it by a day.  This works out to 12 bodies
>> without time in between, even with 100 crematories (this is more than
>> existing sites today)

>Again, a false conclusion derived from a false premise.

>One needs two hours to burn a body today if one wishes to reduce the
>corpse to a fine, white ash suitable for presentation to the grieving
>family and friends.

>The Nazis were under no such obligation.  They only needed to burn the
>body enough to reduce its mass significantly.  Whether the large bones
>were reduced to a fine ash or not, they did not care.  They pulled out
>the burnt remains and broke the largest bones into smaller pieces if
>necessary.

	At least you were not deceived by Green with his bones don't burn
routine.  But the bones are hardly the heart of the issue.
Modern ones run at 1200 C while those ran at 800 C.  Even adding
576 degrees for the absolute temperature, that is much greater
difference in heat transfer capacity than even the ratio of 1200
to 800 would represent.  

	And all of this handwaving is required to preserve a throughput
rate in support of gassing rather than of disease.

>Ms. Rimland would know this if she had been reading alt.revisionism;
>this was a topic of discussion earlier this year.  But alas, she has
>decided that there is nothing on the newsgroup but mudslinging and hate.

	You obviously have not read it.
	
>> Where would all that energy (have) come from to fuel these so-called
>> ovens?

>From the corpses themselves.

	Perhaps you can explain how you can get enough heat out of 10% of
remaining organics to boil off the previous 90% of water.  Please
feel free to do so.  


---------------------------------------------------------------
     Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:42 PDT 1996
Article: 35208 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:55:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4mmvsd$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07  2:59:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    Followups to alt.revisionism only.

>In article <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>	Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious
>>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a
>>secular event.  

>    If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard
>why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this
>possible violation of the law?  If they act to change the situation, then
>they will thank you.  If they do not act, then it will become clear that a
>religious organization can do this.
	
	This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver
beavers.  I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the
problem.  
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:42 PDT 1996
Article: 35218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ignorance of the Law (Giwer's, of course)
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:23:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4mmqel$37u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07  1:26:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>  
>>  	You might as well not waste your time.  As with the last time you
>>  posted they will deny ever having read it and go on as though
>>  nothing was said.  You should have noticed by now that these are
>>  not honest people.

>	When it is Giwer writng about the law it is best to ignore what is 
>written.  FRE 804(b)(2) makes certain statement *automatically* admissible.  
>*Any* statement is admissible under FRE 804 (b)(5).  Read the law, asshole.

	Beenj there, done that, got the quote.

(2) Statement under belief of impending death. In a prosecution
for homicide or in a
        civil action or proceeding, a statement made by a
declarant while believing that the
        declarant's death was imminent, concerning the cause or
circumstances of what the
        declarant believed to be impending death. 

	What does the declarant's statement about the cause of his
impending death have to do with the subject under discussion?  

	Are you sure you are not a paralegal?

	Anyone interested can find it at the following URL.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/804.html


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:43 PDT 1996
Article: 35219 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:26:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4mn1kg$cp8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4mdfqq$q56@dub-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <831261657snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07  3:29:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <4mdfqq$q56@dub-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>
>           100644.317@compuserve.com "Miloslav Bilik" writes:
>> I don't understand your point. If you don't rule out the "suggestion"
>> that large numbers of Jews were murdered in this camp (and it's wise,
>> since many people saw the convoys, the burnings from several
>> kilometers, and even in the station a dozen of cars at a time going to
>> Treblinka and coming back emptied a few hours later), what do you
>> think it could occur to these Jews ? A different method of mass
>> murdering ?

>I'm working on an entirely new thesis of the Final Solution. I have not believed
>the Exterminationist position since 1980, but I am becoming equally unhappy
>with the hard Revisionist position. I will say no more at this point except
>that I am continuing my researches within my limited means and will eventually
>publish, and when I do I don't give a fuck what anyone says or thinks of me.

	My lack of acceptance occurred around 1992 when I read what
Zyklon B was.  That simply undercut so many of the stories that
there was no way to stop the questioning of the stories. 

	It was really a matter of a simple fact underming all of it.  
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:44 PDT 1996
Article: 35250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:21:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <4mn1b7$cp8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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weigel@minn.net (David Weigel) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>>	Do you see FRE 804 (b)(5)?
>>
>>	You do mean this?  From the 
>>
>>(b) Hearsay exceptions. 
>>
>>(5) Other exceptions.  [...]
>>
>>	You missed these parts which precede it.
>>
>>The following are not excluded by the hearsay rule if the
>>declarant is unavailable as a witness:
>>        (1) Former testimony.  [...]
>>
>>        (2) Statement under belief of impending death.  [...]
>>
>>        (3) Statement against interest. A statement which was at
>>the time of its making so far
>>        contrary to the declarant's pecuniary or proprietary
>>interest, or so far tended to subject
>>        the declarant to civil or criminal liability, or to
>>render invalid a claim by the declarant
>>        against another, that a reasonable person in the
>>declarant's position would not have
>>        made the statement unless believing it to be true. A
>>statement tending to expose the
>>        declarant to criminal liability and offered to exculpate
>>the accused is not admissible
>>        unless corroborating circumstances clearly indicate the
>>trustworthiness of the
>>        statement. 
>>
>>        (4) Statement of personal or family history.  [...]
>>
>>	You would have done better attempting to deceive people by citing
>>(3) rather than (5) but three applies when the person is making a
>>statement such as "before he died he said that the both of us
>>killed him not the man in prison."  The both is critical here.

>Since I started this mess by citing FRE 804(b)(2) in the first place,
>let me jump in.  Jeremy Litt thought that the "dying declaration"
>exception would allow the testimony who confessed to a crime on his
>deathbed according to the FRE and the laws of most states.  I replied
>that FRE 804(b)(2) wouldn't work because the declaration didn't
>involve his own death, and I suggested that 804(b)(3) was a better
>candidate.  Mr. Litt agreed, while saying that New York's broader
>"dying declaration" exception would work, and Mr. Eideken added that
>the testimony would also be admissible under the generic test of
>trustworthiness in 804(b)(5).

	But [5] does not give a test of trustworthiness save in the
specific matter of the cause of one's own death.  It is clearly a
circumstantial exception and not a presumption of the iminency of
death.
	
>There is nothing in 804(b)(3) that limits the testimony in question.
>You are correct in that the second sentence would limit the testimony
>of a person trying to exculpate another person, but that isn't the
>type of testimony at issue here.  The testimony of someone who is
>implicating HIMSELF without exculpating another is perfectly within
>the first sentence of the rule, and the testimony would be admissible.
>(Now, the practical matter may be that you can't prosecute a dead man,
>but if the statement was, "before I die I must say that Joe and I
>killed him, not John", the testimony would be admissible against Joe,
>even if the testmony might not be usable in a retrial of John.)

	You do raise a reasonable point with [3] unlike those who are
running with foolishness on the rest of the possibilities.  (I
put in the dig as they are all going to be swearing they knew of
[3] all along and never heard of the [5] they were talking
about.)  

	Given this as a reasonable exception to hearsay under the FRE we
next need to go on to the evidence that in fact the deathbed
statement was actually made.  This is not to be picky but we have
a very common belief in a woman's declaration that she heard
Darwin recant evolution on his deathbed among the creationists.
The unfortunate problem with that is that she was in the US at
the time and his survivors denied it.  

	I salute your honesty in this discussion.  It is refreshing.



-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:45 PDT 1996
Article: 35257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, a labor of hate
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 03:58:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>clips
>> 
>> 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 are also a tragedy, murdered my the Likes Of Matt Giwer
>> 
>>    What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>Anything which comes out of the soiled half-brain of Matt Giwer. Seems 
>to me like I see these kind of guys walking around town, talking to 
>themselves. They always wear overcoats, winter and summer. Have blank 
>looks on their faces. Need to keep them from harming themselves, but 
>they don't seem to understand or care.
>Chuck Ferree
>a genuine liberal thinker and doer!

	Quite a title you have there.  What happened to the title of
Liberator and high ranking officer?

	You start with silly threats and devolve to a level of ridicule
you should have outgrown while you were in the war, if you really
were that is.




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:45 PDT 1996
Article: 35263 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas bag
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 04:30:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4mmjrp$qgk@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4m480k$b3t@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m8gad$1ub@news.nyu.edu> <4mbp4i$r9c@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mh5iq$jp0@access1.digex.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 11:34:01 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4mbp4i$r9c@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>>: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>: >In article <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>: >Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>: >>	We know from eyewitness testimony
>>
>>>: >    "We?"  Do you have a friend in your pocket?  I don't know some of the
>>>: >things claimed below, especially as no evidence is cited.
>>
>>>: 	The "we" is the gang of six, the amen corner and all of Nizkor.  

>    Then since you have named me as one of the gang of six, you are
>lying.  I still don't know it.  And you still have not provided evidence.

	Nizkor named six contributors.  If you want your name removed,
tell them about it.

>>>As compared to the gang of Nazis, the Nazi amen corner, and Ernst Zundl's 
>>>followers?  
>>
>>	Whoever you may be referring to is not participating here.
>>
>>Careful about those group generalizations there, Mr. Giwer -- 
>>>you throw a hissy fit any time someone makes one about you.
>>
>>	I merely point out they are knowingly lying.  

>    I merely point out that you say this a lot, but have quite a bit of
>trouble coming up with evidence.

	How about one of our chemists saying, "show me where I exactly
claimed that bones do not burn" or words to that effect.  Have
you forgotten how many people, yourself included if I remember
correctly, were jumping saying I was "lying" in saying that bones
burn?  And you also remember his misleading idirection about
cyanide in flue gases? 

	There is no significant difference between lying and repeating
lies as personal concurrance is implied without giving the
source.

>>>: >>	1)	Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20
>>>: >>minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment.
>>
>>>: >	1a) This is one witness's estimate and much lower than most other
>>>: >witnesses' figures.  And it is an _estimate_, which is something to regard
>>>: >as less exact and accurate than observations of events, like seeing
>>>: >someone put on a gas mask and pour something down a hole, or seeing a
>>>: >large number of people enter an empty room alive and seeing that same room
>>>: >with a large number of dead bodies in it a short time later.
>>
>>>: 	You mean that seeing a gas mask put on is a more reliable marker
>>>: than hearing an engine from a tank turn on?  In what manner?  

>    I mean no such thing.  I mean seeing a gas mask put on is a more
>reliable observation than _estimating_ elapsed time without a watch, or
>_estimating_ large crowds without actually counting them one by one, or
>_estimating_ size without a tape measure, or _estimating_ weight without a
>scale.  Perhaps you could learn to read for comprehension some day.  But
>since you have not done so in fifty years, I see little hope.

	If you are unable to make such time estimates even without a
watch then you should quietly file that under the personal
handicap section of your memory.  

>>>What's amazing is that every time you start a sentence with a qualifier, 
>>>it always turns out that the exact opposite is true.  When you say "we 
>>>can all agree" it's adead giveaway that noone agrees with you; here you 
>>>say "You mean" when of course it's clear that's NOT what he meant.  You 
>>>always see "logical conclusions" that the rest of the world doesn't think 
>>>logical.
>>
>>	You still did not answer the question.

>    The question was a blatant distortion of what I said.

	Everything appears to be that when I point out the implications
of the statements made.

>>>: 	 But if you say the estimate was too short by a significant
>>>: multiple then we have the problem of just how quickly how many
>>>: people could have been executed from other stories.
>>
>>>"Executed from other stories."  I belive that the allegation is that they 
>>>were exectuted from bullets and gas, not stories, although I hear TOm 
>>>moran is trying to change that.
>>
>>	Now of course even you could see the plain meaning of what I said

>    But you could not see the plain meaning of what I said, 163 IQ type.
>Or if you could then you are merely playing dishonest word games.

	You have taken the liberty to jump in and defend almost every
story posted here as true when I point out the problems with
them.  You have to be defending the conflicts at the same time.

>>and you will not address the problem with mutually conflicting
>>truths.

>    Who but you claimed that the 15-20 minutes must be true?  And please,
>no "look on Nizkor."  If you claim someone else said this time range must
>be true, you bear the burden of proving this by citing the article ID,
>date, and subject, or giving a DejaNews URL.

	McVay, OBC.  I reposted his original post until folks were
starting to complain about the reposts.  And just today I read
another post claiming 5 minutes of HCN from column diffusion to
silence.  It is truly amazing what you folks will believe.

>>>: 	Would you rather keep the 15-20 minutes or would you rather keep
>>>: the murder rate?
>>
>>>: 	You have a very simple choice to make but you can not have both
>>>: of them at the same time.
>>
>>>So you say......
>>
>>	Very clever but again, a refusal to address both stories at the
>>same time, insisting that they must be true separately.

>    I do not give full credence to the time estimate since it is an
>estimate.  When comparing it to other estimates it falls at the low end of
>the scale.

	There are barely any that fall on the high end of the scale.
There is nothing about such circumstances that in any human
experience would have time appear shorter than it really is.

>    And of course it is very, very dishonest to compare two things by
>selecting the extremes from the data sets rather than comparing the
>averages.  I see that "How to Lie With Statistics" was something you did
>manage to read and understand.  Very clever, indeed.

	I have read it myself and as you should know I am using the
numbers that have been in the stories posted here.  I do not have
to make them up.  The longest for CO as been 30 minutes to
silence.  

>    And of course you have still not addressed the other points.

	Lets deal with simply one point at a time.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35280 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How many deaths were there at Auschwitz?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:35:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4mmuk6$aht@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07  2:37:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Greg Raven  wrote:

>Robert Faurisson's piece, "How many deaths were there at Auschwitz?", is 
>now available on my Web site.

>The URL is:

>     http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/auschwitz_deaths.html


	It is obviously anti-semitic to document such things.
-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:30:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4mbgms$2up@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:

>: I thought you [Myshkin] disliked polls and that "soft science" stuff.

>Hey, he *loves* that "soft science" stuff.  Isn't he fond of telling us
>about his IQ of 163?  And when he does, it's the *hard science* part 
>that he can't grasp (i.e. the difference between a raw score and a 
>scaled score, and what a standard deviation is).

	Where were you during the bone burning deception by your fellow
chemist?  

	Where were you during the HCN being produced by the Krema fires
deception by your fellow chemist?

	Are you another of those undergraduates implying department
membership?




-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35291 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 23:02:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4mgnkm$dh2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4l4r1f$iq8@wi.combase.com> <4l6ics$c76@news.enter.net> <4l70ek$m74@wi.combase.com> <4l83ps$j8u@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4m8hv9$3dg@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <2MAY199613135513@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  6:01:42 PM CDT 1996
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4m8hv9$3dg@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> 
>>>Laura Finsten  wrote:
>> 
>>>	As I said, you really don't understand scholarship.
>> 
>>>In article <4lu8j2$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>> 
>>>	But I do.
>> 
>>>In that case, Mr. Giwer is merely intellectually dishonest!
>> 
>>	Scholarship are those academic endevours which do not require
>>analytic thought.  History, art and literature are no different
>>in that regard.  
>> 
>>	Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.  

>    And, apparently, a BS Physicist is one who will assert information
>    wholely independent of all evidence provided by non-physicists.

	What you folks think is evidence unfortunately is not.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May  9 07:13:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 23:03:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4mgnmg$dh2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  6:02:40 PM CDT 1996
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4m3nn4$gqa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) said:


>>>>     In addition to these age groups - of the approximately 
>>>>280,000 Jews in Germany proper and Austria on 31 October 1941, 
>>>>approximately 30% are over 65 years old - severely wounded 
>>>>veterans and Jews with war decorations (Iron Cross I) will be 
>>>>accepted in the old-age ghettos. With this expedient solution, in 
>>>>one fell swoop many interventions will be prevented.

>>>>> --Wannsee Protocol, January 20, 1942 >>>How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the >>>first place? Why put heros in ghettos? >> What do those questions have to do with this being the official Nazi >>policy. This is what was offered to me as proof of gassing. It clearly >>documents something quite different from that. It is the highest level >>documentation that has surfaced on the subject of official Nazi policy. >GIWER-TROLL LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH ALERT: The Wannsee Protocol was never >offered to the Giwer-troll as proof of gassing. It was offered as proof of >the official policy of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews. Sorry, McFly, that is what I asked for when it was provided. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:49 PDT 1996 Article: 35304 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: the gang of six Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:29:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 47 Message-ID: <4mbcsv$equ@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4l177k$hs5@wi.combase.com> <4m6ib0$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4m9i21$1cu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 5:27:43 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >[About the Wannsee Protocols] ># Yes. And there is still no statement of murder. >What about the following: > "The remnant that finally is able to survive all this - since this > is undoubtedly the part with the strongest resistance - must > be treated accordingly since these people, representing a natural > selection, are to be regarded as the germ cell of a new Jewish > development. (See the experience of history)". >Can you read, oh 163-IQ man? "The remnant that is finally able to >survive all this" (meaning the slave labor program). Sterilization is also discussed in the document which would achieve the same result. But since you are so convinced of this you will never admit there are in fact alternatives. And why not sterilize immediately? The common belief (to some extent a fact depending upon whether the many methods they were experimenting with affected testosterone production) that impotence reduces physical strength and they were slated for hard manual labor such as road construction. ># You insist upon reading murder where it is not written. >You insist upon portraying yourself as mentally retarded. Some >people may still think it's an odd game you're playing; some >others must have concluded by now that it's no game. Your mind is made up. I never expect to change it. This is for others to read. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:50 PDT 1996 Article: 35305 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor, uber alles Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 00:26:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 54 Message-ID: <4mbk1n$qjr@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <4l8j27$arm@hackberry.zilker.net> <4ls1m4$8ln@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3182d3e3.27472438@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4m9jv3$2je@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 7:29:43 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >[The Giwer .sig] > ># What kind of truth is it that needs protection? > >Oddly enough, some other "nazihugger" began using this very >line, only he gives a source: Does that invalidate the question? >## What sort of truth is it that needs protection? - Auberon Waugh >## >## The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992 > >It would be nice to see Giwer, the 163-IQ man, give credit >where credit is due. It is hardly worth the effort to determine if in fact he did use those words or was in fact the first or who he is. It is in fact quite unlikely he was the first. >It will also be interesting to hear why his "revisionist" >position needs to be "supported" by so many lies? If "revisionists" >speak the truth, why do they lie so much? The holohuggers support each other in claiming things are lies when in fact they are not. Holohuggers are willfully deceitful about bones burning and HCN being released by coke fires. Holohuggers are also deceitful when they identify any questioner of the gassing stories as anti-semitic and neo-nazi. Holohuggers have beliefs that are fixed and find it impossible to entertain an alternate explanation. Holohuggers start with conclusions and study the facts until they confess. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:51 PDT 1996 Article: 35313 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 00:57:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 63 Message-ID: <4mguef$svb@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4krjsq$ca1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4m0elf$56h@news-central.tiac.net> <4m22ql$jtj@dfw-ixnews4.ix..netcom.com> <830972166snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <4mbfgs$9ce@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <318A5E07.5B78@one.net> <4mdv27$km3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <318aa923.7246284@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4medvu$jbr@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <318b7aa1.46809984@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 7:57:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35313 soc.culture.jewish:48344 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19315 soc.culture.israel:32770 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Sat, 04 May 1996 02:08:08 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!>What crap you anti-Semites work with this issue. It was a mistake, an >!>awful mistake, we all know it was a mistake because there would be no >!>motive AT ALL for bombing a UN refugee hospital. A 300 meter long >!>range artillery mistake. >!After they were told on the telephone that it was a refugee camp, >!it was a mistake? >What crap word games you play you slimey bigot. >!After they carefully targeted the camp it was a mistake? >What crap word games you play you scummy anti-Semite. Tell it to the man in charge of the UN camp. I simply repeat what he said. >!>None of the attacks on Isrealies are MISTAKES. >!>Neither was the Holocaust Giwer... >!>It was a PLANNED EXTERMINATION USING GAS. >!>Got it? Good... >!Been listening to me on the radio again? >Look at yourself pal. You deny the Nazis had a plan to exterminate the >Jews, you deny the Nazis ever gassed any Jews, you deny that 6 million >Jews died in the Holocaust, you deny there were gas chambers, you call >those who believe those things "holohuggers" who are "all a bunch of >liars", and now you wish us to believe Isreal purposely attacked a UN >refugee field hospital. >Yer a real yuck pal... >And then you have a tizzy fit and threaten law suits when anyone calls >you an anti-Semite. A real yuck.... >BTW, why did the Jews want to blow up a UN refugee camp and kill a >hundred people for the world press? >I have my finger on the SAVE KEY here waiting for the answer Giwer. You have a save key? That was the Atari 800 wasn't it? > I suppose I can understand the selfish callous > disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by. > ---------------------------------- > Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/ >FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg > Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996 What you really need to do is have those teeth extracted and get rid of the radio. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:52 PDT 1996 Article: 35314 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 03:31:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 177 Message-ID: <4mbufn$30a@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ldpjh$duc@Vir.com> <4lsqtc$rsb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4lv52l$q9c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4m3bfc$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m736d$9i1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 10:27:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4m736d$9i1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >[snip] >> Not even a good try here. Keller = cellar. Leichen = Leichen. >> Want to apply to the local experts in German for different >> defintions of the words? >LINGUISTIC IGNORANCE ALERT: Giwer, ever ready to demonstrate his >ignorance, bungles again. The German term "leichenkeller" derives from >"Leichen" (corpse) and "Keller" (cellar), and literally means "corpse >cellar." Compare this with the conventional meaning of the German word for >"morgue" (Leichenhaus, or "corpse house") and it becomes readily apparent >that Giwer, the linguistic "schwachsinnig," once more is blowing smoke out >his "esel." >Source: _The Random House German Dictionary_. Fine with me. At least we have a holohuggers word that all labels of Leichenkeller mean morgue. >> But in any event there have been sufficient posts here that have >> claimed the original intent was modified as you are well aware. >> And the Frontline series on PBS made exactly the same claim. >> What are you trying to revise? >GIWER-TROLL ALERT #2: Giwer again acts as if he has not been told >innumerable times WHY people have stipulated the L.Kellers (hint: L.Keller = >Leichenkeller = corpse cellar = morgue) were origionally designed as >morgues is that it was the designation the Nazis used on the the plans >for them. In order to distract people from the fact that he has once more >bee caught with his pants down and playing with himself, he now accuses >the very same people who have been telling him that the L.Kellers were >oriogionally designated as morgues, and that they were ad hoc converted >into gas chambers, that they are "trying to revise" ...something. (Giwer >doesn't seem to know _what_, exactly, these people are trying to "revise." >Perhaps he didn't think his lie through far enough before blathering it? >Ready! Fire! Aim! That's our Giwer!) You are obviously unable to follow your own posts. >[snip] >> You see here "converted" that is that there was an original >> design that was modified. >GIWER-TROLL ALERT #3: Aside from the fragmented grammer and specious >reasoning, see GIWER-TROLL ALERT #2. >[snip] >> Of course you would because you will not answer the need for >> steel reinforced construction for a morgue. >REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems unable, or unwilling, to recognize that >concrete is commonly re-forced with rebar to give it structural strength. >This is quite common when the concrete must bear a load, such as a large, >flat, roof must. >GIWER-TROLL ALERT #1(b): Giwer acts as if he has not been told innumerable >time WHY people have stipulated the L.Kellers were, in fact, converted to >gas chambers prior to the Kremas becoming operational (hint: Wolter's note >to Bischoff where L.Keller 1 was designated as "Sonderkeller" [special >cellar] or Kammler's letter where L.Keller 1 was designated as >"Vergasungkeller" [gassing cellar].) Then there was the issue of Pru"fer's >letter to the Zentralbauleitung about inquiries for prussic acid gas >detectors ("Anzetgegera"te fu"r Blausau"re-Reste) for Krema II. There are >additional reasons, but it is doubtful has the mental wattage or integrity >to acknowledge them. Instead, he pursues infantile games of acting as if >he has never heard of them. Such is the character (or lack thereof) of >Giwer. And again you refuse to explain this unnecessarily expensive design feature for either a morge or a gas chamber. It appears you are unable to answer questions. >[snip] >> >MAJOR GIWER-FIB ALERT: Due to Giwer's "inability" to conprehend the issues >> >(See GIWER-TROLL ALERT #1) Therefore, he assumes that whatever people have >> >in good faith claimed (with evidence), he calls lies without a shred of >> >proof. In the case of Dr. Keren, his claim that the L.Kellers >> >> Where did this plural come from? >REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems to have "forgotten" that L.Keller 1 of BOTH >Krema II and Krema III were both gas chambers. That is the assertion but you refuse to answer the questions. >> The Leichenkellars of four separated Kremas were connected by >> underground passages? >REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems unable, or unwilling, to recognize that this >has been what Dr. Keren has been sying all along! Amazing. Then he has been truly silly. >> What revisionist history are you talking about? >GIWER-TROLL ALERT #4(a): Giwer, when faced with the brutal reality that he >is looking more and more like a pompus and ignorant ass, tries to divert >the topic. >> >In fact, to anybody who has studied the plans (and descriptions) >> >of Kremas III or III, it is readily apparant that this is so. >> >> And you are going post the evidence of the underground >> connections between them? >GIWER-TROLL ALERT #4(b): Giwer, when faced with the brutal reality that he >is looking more and more like a pompus and ignorant ass, tries to cover >his ignorance by diverting the topic. Again. The fact is, that such >information was given to him in the reply to his post! (See below). I will be interested you posting the evidence of these hundreds of yards of underground passageways. Or perhaps Keren will correct you before you stick your foot in deeper. >> In addition, Dr. Keren (and others) have made this observation >> >before. Just as obvious, Giwer has chosen to remain oblivious to this, >> >instead making purile and false accusations that Dr. Keren has fabricated >> >this easily verifed fact. This, of course, is the modus operandi of Giwer >> >to divert attention to the fact that his dingy has just been blown out of >> >the water. >> >> Such a fact. Easily verified that all four Leichenkellers were >> connnectec by underground passageways. It must be so easy that >> even you can do so. Please do so. The drawings, please. >REPEAT GIWER-TROLL ALERT #4(b): Giwer, when faced with the brutal reality >that he is looking more and more like a pompus and ignorant ass, tries to >cover his ignorance by diverting the topic. Again. The fact is, that such >information was given to him in the reply to his post! (See below). Noting you refuse to demonstrate the position you assert another has taken. >[snip] >> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer's ignorance of the fact that this has already been >> >done, and that it is rather easy for he himself to so verify, instead >> >bleats about the lack of corroborative evidence. Perhaps this is Giwer's >> >way of saying "I haven't a clue as to where to look, could you please >> >point this out to me?" >> >> >I suggest Giwer examine the plans to Krema II in _Anatomy_ (pp.202-207) or >> >the photo of the drawings used for Kremas III and III in _Auscwhitz: a >> >history in photographs_ (p.66). I also suggest he pull his head out of his >> >ass first before doing so. >> >> Photographs of underground passageways connecting them. Will the >> miracles of photography never cease. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, evidencing the lack of even the most basic reading >skills and comprehension, "misreads" what was written. Photographs of the >_drawings_ of the plans for Krema II (and III) were described- not >photographs of the interior of the L.Kellers themselves. Now, if only >Giwer would pull his head out of his ass and look at them.... But then, >evidently, that would take an even greater miracle and is probably asking >to much of Divine intervention! You underground passageways are where? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:52 PDT 1996 Article: 35319 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:29:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 91 Message-ID: <4mc983$obd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4l3uno$q77@news.nyu.edu> <4lbjab$jhg@wi.combase.com> <4lrvc5$4qe@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4m8hte$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:31:31 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4m8hte$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >[snip] >> But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and >> punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at >> Auschwitz? >GIWER STUPIDITY ALERT: If Giwer would stop acting like an unwashed pig and >instead read what was posted, he would have realized that his question was >already answered in my origional post! To whit: >...Taylor continues (_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.54-55, p.54fn): > The defendants would compromise "a large number of individuals and > officials who were in authority in the government, in the military > establishment, including the General Staff, and in the financial, > industrial, and economic life of Germany who by all civilized standards > are provable to be common criminals." The charges against them would be: > > (a) Atrocities and offenses against persons or property constituting > violations of International Law, including the laws, rules, and customs > of land and naval warfare..... > (b) Atrocities and offenses, including atrocities and persecutions on > racial and religious grounds, committed since 1933. This is only to > recognize the principles of criminal law as they are generally observed > in civilized states. These principles have been assimilated as a part > of the International Law at least since 1907....* >...In regards to points (a) and (b) above, this was in reference to the >Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Law and Customs of War on Land >(1907). Specifically, in regards to German violations of this treaty, >concerning occupied territories, some of the applicable articles in the >annex to the Covention (_The Laws of War_, ISBN 0-679-73712-X; pp.232-233) >are: > Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed > into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all measures in his > power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, > while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in forces in the > country. > Article 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied > territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power. > Article 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and > private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, > must be respected. > Article 47. Pillage is formally forbidden. > Article 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be > inflicted upon the population on accounts of the acts of individuals > for which they cannot be regarded s jointly and severally responsible. >Said articles of the Hague Convention, their violation by Germany, and the >bringing of charges against Nazi officials and individuals, have nothing >to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany was a signatory >_prior_ to the violations that were committed. >> Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial >> an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of >> justice. >REALITY CHECK: In truth Giwer has severe problems in dealing with reality. >It also appears, given his lack of critical faculties, that he probably >has problems dressing himself. Perhaps rooting around in pig-shit IS the >best he can do! You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to individuals as I have noted many times. Please be specific in your response, idiot. >posted-e-mailed to Matt "I like pig-shit!" Giwer Unsolicited email is a form of harrassment for which this conference in famous. It is based upon the ancient history that commercial providers charge by the email. Many children still believe that is true. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:53 PDT 1996 Article: 35321 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm) Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:59:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4mcaon$gra@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lemk0$gi2@tribune.concentric.net> <4lev1d$de2@wi.combase.com> <4lj8cr$gdn@shiva.usa.net> <4ljo6e$d28@wi.combase.com> <4lr0to$msk@hackberry.zilker.net> <4ls4q5$974@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4ltghl$bp7@boris.eden.com> <4ludnh$ecd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m1ok4$mku@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4m67no$77n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3189302f.17567260@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:57:27 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:26:51 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the >!holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement. >There is more than enough proof. Denying the proof for no rational >reason shows you to be a bigot and an anti-Semite. >In fact, just last week NOVA did an hour and a half on THE PROOF OF THE >GAS CHAMBERS through the architecture of the camps. But that is >sponsored by Boston University and written and archived by intelligent >people. Cant believe those kind of people can we Giwer. Rather we are to >take the word of Jew Haters like YOU, MORAN, BARON, KLIEM who have the >intellectual capicity of pea gravel... >What a hoot. I missed that show but "proof" would not be an operative word to any scientific effort as science proves nothing. You may read talk.origins to find how many times that is reiterated to the creationists but they fail to grasp it. Proof is for mathematics. And if you had any concept of PBS funding you would realize that Boston U has a subsidiary corporation doing the sponsoring. And if you have ever really watched NOVA it may win awards every now and then but it is hardly beyond the pop science level and that includes when Sagan got them off of the ground. But I would still suggest you get that tooth extracted so you do not hear me in your dreams. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:54 PDT 1996 Article: 35333 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 23:23:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 74 Message-ID: <4mgp20$f0d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <4lrrd9$nu@dfw-ixne <4m0r8b$vg@news.nyu.edu> <4m1gfc$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m959p$h8k@access5.digex.net> <4mbc60$fi3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4mfa7v$h03@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 6:25:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 100273.3352@compuserve.com (Juergen Langowski) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >>>In article <4m1gfc$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>> But if you folks would like to agree with me on the unreliability >>>>of evidence that has passed through Soviet hands we can reject >>>>both all of the Demjanjuk and all of the gassing evidence >>>>equally. >>> Excuse me good sir but I do know of one piece of gassing evidence that >>>I believe meets even your tough standards: the letter from Becker to Rauff >>>about gassing vans. >>>URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/chelmno/ >>>becker-to-rauff.051642 >>> Rauff was deposed in 1972 in Chile (which makes it hard to imagine >>>what pressure could be brought to bear on him) and confirmed receiving >>>correspondence from Becker about gassing vans. >>> Es ist richtig, dass ich "uber den Einsatz der Gaswagen etwas von >>> Becker bekommen habe. Ich selbst hatte Becker gesagt, mir einen >>> entsprechenden Bericht zuzusenden. >>> My translation: >>> "It is correct, that I received something from Becker about the >>>introduction of the gassing van. I myself had told Becker to send me a >>>corresponding report." >> Gaswagen is a noun. Your translation is like airplane into >>airing plane. >Yes, Gaswagen is a noun, and Matt Giwer is a troll. The translation is >correct. Forget it. Did you learn this driving around in your peopling Wagen? I preferred a chevie for that activity myself. Much more room. >>>URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rauff.walter/ >>>Walter-Rauff.1972.txt >>> Physical evidence corroborated by eyewitness testimony is what I >>>believe you asked for. Now you have it. >> I have evidence of a very poor translation. But I am certain our >>resident expert in German will swear to your translation. >Don't bother to ask for my credentials. I could be tempted to email >you the 80+ books I've translated. What subjects? I'll take you up on the offer if you can convert them to ascii. On the other hand, which German dictionary from the time carried this translation? What was the word used for the tens of thousands of vehicles powered by CO? (Nizkor has an article that mentions hundreds of thousands of them.) ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:55 PDT 1996 Article: 35352 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4movtq$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a0f7c.559191@news.pacificnet.net> <4mjah8$4k4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mmjd6$m7e@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:12:10 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>>tom moran wrote: >>># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just >>># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to >>># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site. >>># The results were next to nothing. >>>I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone >>>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony, >>>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they >>>never said? >>>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered >>>in Treblinka. >> You still haven't looked up the two trials of Hoess on >>indictments brought by General Rudenko and discovered which one >>he was acquitted of. >> You folks won't believe it if I tell you. >I don't know that anyone will, Mr. Giwer. You track record with the >truth is, well, awful. That is why I want a true holohugger to find and post the information as if I do so, that truth will also be denounced as a lie simply because it does not fit the legends. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:56 PDT 1996 Article: 35353 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4movu0$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m0jq1$2t1@boris.eden.com> <4m7230$kpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mb5b1$qs0@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> <4mj06c$hvj@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mm64u$sbs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mo48i$oof@shiva.usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:12:16 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35353 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19338 alt.discrimination:46586 alt.skinheads:22188 can.politics:43322 hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >Gregory Taylor (gtaylor@msn.fullfeed.com) writes: > You are either monumentally naive if you actually believe that, > or malicious beyond compare if you think that my family > "deserves" what you know they will be subjected to. >In article <4mm64u$sbs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) intrudes his ignorance: > Your family, yes, unto the seventh generation isn't it? >Yes, God, in the Scriptures, does reserve the right to punish >families "unto the seventh generation," but only God has that right. > Very Jewish. >Not in the least! This is very Giwer, to misinterpret the Scriptures >and blame it on the Jews! Perhaps you would care to explain it? > 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. >--Matt "I said it, but I will blame you for it!" Giwer > What kind of truth is it that needs protection? >When Mr. Giwer is around, all truth needs protection. Do you wear a superhero costume while you are defending the truth >from me? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:57 PDT 1996 Article: 35354 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem) Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4movss$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4mchdm$af0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4me0pi$sap@access5.digex.net> <4meifq$mcn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mibs9$64f@access1.digex.net> <4mlomp$abg@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mnn57$6ko@moe.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:40 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27983 alt.revisionism:35354 soc.culture.jewish:48400 libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >: > It is considered a personal injury under Talmudic law and treated the >: >same as any non-sexual personal injury. I have never heard of a personal >: >injury case in the US where the money was given directly into the control >: >of a minor child rather than the child's parents or legal guardian. I'll >: >bet the Giwer-troll hasn't either. >: >: Nor have I ever heard of a purely financial penalty for other >: than accidentally inflicted harm. >That's because you've never bothered to read history. Payment for >injury or death, usually in livestock, was quite common at one time. >Check out, for instance, the term "wergild" in Anglo-Saxon culture. Now three year old girls are being compared to livestock? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:57 PDT 1996 Article: 35367 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!lexis-nexis!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <4movt4$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <831298558snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4mljos$2er@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:48 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Where are the documents in which the UFO crewmen describe >their actions in great detail? >Where is the leader of the UFO crewmen, speaking to his followers, >specifying his plans for the future? Back in the 1950s and 60s when UFO were generally piloted by friendly people who gave people free rides to other planets which were also higher planes of existance. Their plans were generally on the order of raising the human race to a more spiritual level of existence, reveal the secrets of the universe in general and personal and world peace in particular. If you can find some of those books Adamski was one of the authors if I remember correctly, you can can find all the detailed and fabulous descriptions you could wish for. Many times they are quite better than the holocaust stories. One of the "details" the UFO true believers keep trying to salvage was the author's description of twinkling lights in space. The believers want to that be the "fireflies" the first astronauts reported. However upon reading the original passage he is clearly talking about stars which he incorrectly believed would appear to twinkle in space. Since you appear to have university affiliations, you might try the social psych (or whatever) section of the library and see if they have anything on the UFO phenomenon. It was at one time popular to suggest that the cold war and possibility of nuclear war was the reason for the popularity of the "some one to save us >from ourselves" aspects of the story. Getting on to the evil side of space aliens, Betty and Barney Hill gave a level of detail down to even having a reproduction of a star map that they saw on board the saucer. I generally lost interest in the phenomenon in the 70s but I would be surprised to find that the level of detail has decreased. Therefore you might try Communion or one of its sequals if you can't find the older books. Is this a sufficient answer to your questions? >And why do revisionazis have to be so dumb? That is not the way your buddy, Dahlman, spells it. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:58 PDT 1996 Article: 35368 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: what is a troll? Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:10:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 15 Message-ID: <4movtf$jjp@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <831376208snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Alexander Baron wrote: >What exactly is a troll? Somebody once told me what a spam is but I'm not sure >I understand that either. Troll is an ancient yuletide charole. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:13:59 PDT 1996 Article: 35373 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Burning pits Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:32:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4moc7b$54p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a1a42.3317524@news.pacificnet.net> <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mlmal$mus@hackberry.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:35:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >>Now, to describe the fat running down the channels at the bottom of the >>incineration pits as "rivers of fat" would be, IMO, a bit of a stretch of >>the imagination, more of the taking of "literary licence" than factual >>reporting. But the fact remains that incineration pits _did_ exist and >>that fat _did_ run down the channels in these pits and was collected to be >>reused as fuel. >It might also be that folks looking at what is happening to fellow >human beings would describe what they saw in horror-like terms: >"rivers of fat." Seeing the cooking flesh in such numbers was amazing >in itself, but to see the fat being used as fuel was probably enough >to put anyone over the edge. Over the edge with howls of laughter that anyone would be stupid enough to believe such a story. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:00 PDT 1996 Article: 35374 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:45:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <4mp22i$pft@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <318f4c27.3304288@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:48:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > Repost. > "Fears Rise Over Nazi Weapons Leaking at Bottom of the Baltic" > Los Angeles Times, July 18, 1992 > "Tons of chemical weapons dumped by > the Allies after World War II, > have nudged the sea to the brink of > catastrophe, scientists say." > "By tossing 300,000 tons of ready - to - fire weapons - enough >to to kill the entire population of Europe ... The 300,000 tons of >chemical weapons now submerged in the Baltic Sea's greenish brown >waters contain enough active gases to kill 800 million people ..." > Interesting connotations. The Germans had all these chemical >weapons, but did not use them, even when they were on the brink, and >here we have the actions of the Allies threatening to accomplish what >the Nazis refrained from doing. > One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone >B pellets to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely >had? Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid >carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there. >'Oh look Commoissar, heres a empty can of pesticide.' I get the impression it is like the search for a big enough room to gas so many people so quickly, that Zykon B was tortured into the role. Of course if I could find evidence of the publication of Hoess's purported memoirs before 1959 that might put a different light upon it. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:00 PDT 1996 Article: 35375 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: L'il Tommy: Wrong Again (nu?) Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:31:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4mofmc$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mjfdl$46a@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mmfl1$c7d@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:35:08 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> I asked months ago where the warehouses full of physical evidence >> were stored and the best I got in response was "Are you saying >> there are not warehouses full of evidence?" Would you like to >> answer the question? >> > Sure, asshole. In the record of the proceedings. Have you read them? No physical evidence then? >> > If it was not done at the time, how do you explain the report of Charles >> >Larson, M.D. a forensic pathologist. >> >> If you are referring to what was posted here, that was hearsay >> unless he was working for the SS during the war. > No it was the report of an expert. Show us your ignorance of the law >again, asshole. Tell me that an expert cannot use hearsay to form his >conclusions. He was not there to witness what he talked talked about. There was no conclusion. There was a description of what happened. It is hearsay. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:01 PDT 1996 Article: 35376 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goldhagen's thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:35:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <4moft1$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mb369$gnp@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mib4o$2p4c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <5MAY199618411165@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:38:41 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: >In article <4mib4o$2p4c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes... >> >>Real historical research requires understanding of cause and effect and >>responsibility is an essential part of that enquiry. >> >>>Historical responsibility, because of its semantic content, is even harder >>>to establish than historical causes. But establishing historical chains >>>of cause and effect are always speculative, and the best historians >>>recognize this. That is why the only historians that we remember and >>>continue to consult are those who put questions of responsibility and >>>cause and effect far enough in the background so as to make it possible >>>for the content of primary source material to shine through. >> >>You are confusing primary documentation and research with historiography. >>They are not the same thing. The historian must attempt to interpret, or >>else he has simply recited facts, and that is no help to anyone. One does >>not empirically establish cause and effect--one interprets events. > I fall somewhere between the two of you on these points. While cause > and effect research risks over simplifying complex systemic antecedents > to historical events, it seems to me that building models showing > connectivity among events is useful. It seems that it ought to be > possible to construct structured linear relationship (ie lisrel etc.) > models to show potenial causal relationships. > However, I agree that "responsibility" is a value laden term that does > little towards adding to historical understanding. And, in fact, > interjection of such values can make it difficult to objectively study > historical issues. I am convinced, for example, that it will not be > possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can > get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man. > Those values (be they right or wrong) are too much of a filter keeping > us from really understanding what happened. Do you happen to own a baseball team? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:02 PDT 1996 Article: 35378 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Les Griswold's Parliamentary appearance Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:45:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 32 Message-ID: <4mogi6$n1o@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mcdgq$qdr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mibef$srp@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5MAY199618532263@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mkq7a$3oh@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4ml5bq$fn3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:49:58 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.discrimination:46588 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19345 alt.revisionism:35378 alt.skinheads:22199 can.politics:43324 Laura Finsten wrote: >>3) M.P.s are more concerned with protecting homosexuals, winning the >>next election, and going on taxpayer funded junkets in warm locations than in >>doing any work of worth for their constituents. >By "protecting homosexuals", do you mean passing a law to ensure that their >basic rights under the human rights code are protected, just like those of >all other Canadians? Do you mean instead of sitting by idly while folks >like white supremacist Matt McKay allegedly beat the living daylights >(literally) out of gay men? If you think that ensuring that equal rights >for homosexuals is not something that MPs constituents care about, why >do you suppose that the polls taken showed that such rights were favoured >by a majority of Canadians? How many MPs do you suppose have no >homosexual constituents? Were causing death by infecting people people with a fatal disease a crime there would be an rather outrageously high murder rate among gays by gays. Certainly these rare beatings would pale in comparison. If I remember correctly, the US has had some 40,000 such murders so far this year. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:03 PDT 1996 Article: 35379 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: !Grynspan MUST keep posting the Address of Jew Children for Giwer Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:08:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4mohk4$dk1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3180D3FE.7F60@nt.com> <3184CF32.7BCF@nt.com> <318550e4.68104580@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4m6b1u$7r8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mk2b8$fr0@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 5:08:04 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4m6b1u$7r8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >> You should never have taken after Charlen. >It should be noted that any discussion of Charlen Kyle posted here will >be sent to her by me as a courtesy. And? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:03 PDT 1996 Article: 35394 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: That's Incredible! Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:38:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 110 Message-ID: <4m8htu$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lrap2$bal@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4lugkv$g5r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3183dfa9.7895618@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4m1nl4$odn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <318516f1.32721814@news.srv.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 3:35:10 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: >On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 06:31:05 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote: >>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 01:09:53 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >>>wrote: >> >>>[snip] >> >>>> Not even your fat being rendered with acid story? Would you like >>>>to describe this process further? Or do you need the help of our >>>>resident chemists? Or do you need a member of the gang of six to >>>>remain silent rather than tell you that is a recycled WW I story? >> >>>Actually, skeletons are prepared as anatomical specimens by boiling >>>away the flesh and soft tissue in a highly *alkaline* bath. The >>>process is known as "maceration." However, if you boil fat in an >>>alkaline solution, the fat saponifies and soap is produced. Were it >>>not for the affidavits of Sigmund Mazur and two British airman named >>>Witton and Neely who were imprisoned and detailed to work at the >>>Danzig Institute, I would be quite prepared to say that all of the >>>soap produced at Danzig was produced quite by accident. In fact I am >>>prepared to say that soap was produced by accident at Danzig in the >>>first instance. >> >> What does this have to do with an acid? >It is a correction of a minor detail. And also an opportunity to note >that historians have known for a very long time, and published for a >very long time, that making soap from human fat is nothing more than a >gruesome, almost insignificant footnote in a larger history of horror. >If the popular press can't ween itself off the myth, it is hardly the >fault of historians. So what was your point in reiterating a known propaganda instead of simply stating it was a propaganda item other than to give it further play? >>>Now, the charge of soapmaking at Danzig was the only charge of >>>soapmaking that was made at the IMT hearings. All other soap charges >>>are, well, recycled World War I atrocity stories. >> >> At least one person appears honest enough to contradict a >>holohugging idiot. >In Dr. Keren's defense, I know for a fact that Dr. Keren is well aware >of the nature of the soap myth as it has been the topic of some >offline discussion. The doctor can speak for himself and you can not read his mind so please stop this speaking for your fellow holohuggers. The evdidence in favor of the "Dr." appelation is not in comport with what would be expected of a person with such credentials. >>>Nevertheless, concentration camp inmates can hardly be faulted for >>>believing these stories, since that is what they were often taunted >>>with whenever there was a distribution of soap rations. >> >>>BTW, the earliest report I know of debunking the soap myth came from >>>the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich in 1960, long before >>>"revisionists" came on the scene. >> >> What does they might have believed have to do with the truth? >In the first place, it is true that camp inmates believed they were >issued soap made from human fat, and it gives a reason why they might >believe it to be true and a reason why some Holocaust survivors still >repeat it: because they believed it to be true. That does not make it true any more than the carefully guarded secret that showerheads were fake was a camp rumor. >Given that prisoners were taunted about the soap they were issued when >they were taunted in a situation of almost indescribable brutality, I >think they might be forgiven for believing it when they were told of >yet another cruelty. If we know better, it is only because we did not >have to suffer that cruelty. Upon what evidence do you claim that was a taunt? The people claimed it? The same credibility of death by steaming? suffocation? electrocution? >>Even Spielberg didn't swallow the "we are going to be gassed" >>camp rumors. His showers produced water. >Wouldn't know. I haven't seen the movie. You should some time. >But since you bring up gassing, I will note that there is a difference >between believing rumors about human fat soap and believing that >others were murdered with poison gas. The difference is that witnesses >saw the gassing process with their own eyes. The witnesses also testified to electrocution, suffocation and steaming. If you believe the gassing you also believe other three methods of mass execution. Sorry about that. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:04 PDT 1996 Article: 35407 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: Michael is a big, fat idiot like Rush Limbaugh Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 05:20:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4mepde$kdi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mavre$cqt@news.nyu.edu> <4mcjct$2kg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mdbrr$ma5@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 12:19:42 AM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28001 alt.revisionism:35407 soc.culture.jewish:48463 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >DvdThomas (dvdthomas@aol.com) wrote: >: Jeremy writes: >: >Second is that I find it hard to give the Giwer the benefit of the doubt >: >on "what any fool can see." Remember, this is the same Giwer who said >: >something about "Internet Indirect," and when Gord McFee responded by >: >saying something about not knowing "Internet Indirect," the Giwer asked >: >him how it was possible that Mr. McFee knew the correct name "Internet >: >indirect." The Giwer has a difficult time with the obvius. >: Damn, it must be late. I'm missing something obvius here. >Simply put, Giwer demanded to know how Mr. McFee knew a name that Mr. >Giwer had typed in the previous post. Master of the obvious, Mr. Giwer. I have the original message rather than the one with the changed name that is now circulating. There is no need for it save for the abuse of process countersuit should anyone be stupid enough to play the law suit game. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:05 PDT 1996 Article: 35409 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:13:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4mp79n$ebs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m90eb$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:17:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19361 alt.discrimination:46591 alt.revisionism:35409 alt.skinheads:22223 can.politics:43362 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: com> <4mmti0$g38@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> >Distribution: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: dreilley@pinc.com (David Reilley) wrote: >: >: >In article <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >: >: >>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource >: >>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? >: >>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >: >>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) >: >: >: >> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most >: >>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life. >: >: >McVay -- now there's a nice Jewish name! >: >: You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New >: York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus >: on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication, >: just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything >: while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back >: home who can't think. >Ha! Ha! Ha! You, apparently, read things into the news that no one else >does. Apparently, you're the only one who can't think. >Nice dodge, by the way. YOu didn't say Mr. McVay gives the "amen Corner" >a bad name; you said he gives "Jews" a bad name. Loser! Another error >for the Giwer book......... Does not even the Talmud comment upon the people with whom one associates? >: As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones >: discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was >: thinking about the person said "we were talking in temple" and >: his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name. >Yes, but there are names that give strong hints they aren't "Jewish." >McVay sounds awfully Irish to me, and I'm very familiar with the Jewish >population of Ireland -- not vry big, so the odds of McVay being one ar >pretty damned small. >Besides, why argue this, if you )according to the above) meant the "amen >corner," not that McVay was Jewish? >Get it straight, Mr. Happy. >: >: But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their >: pro-gassing posts with "I am not Jewish but ..." and that is the >: amen corner. >Well, then by your logic that would make you Part of the "Sig Heil" >corner. Since we agree that you are, let ,e point out that you give the >"Sig Heil" corner no worse name than they already have......... I have declined to respond to the "are you a nazi" questions precisely because that is how a denial would have been used by you folks. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:06 PDT 1996 Article: 35412 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.vancouver.istar.net!news.vancouver.istar.net!west.news.istar.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: That's Incredible! Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:48:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 62 Message-ID: <4mp99v$475@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lrap2$bal@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mbt03$1jv@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4mer7v$89n@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4mm5o5$lat@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4mnte0$tne@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:52:15 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >: >: >Matt Giwer wrote: >: >: ># No there is not. When an engine is running rich the exhaust >: ># comes out black. If you have ever seen a car old enough not to >: ># be EPA approved, when the pedal is put down, the exhaust is >: ># black. That is partially burned hydrocarbons. On a diesel it is >: ># worse as they are added to the black particulate carbon that is >: ># emitted. >: >: >: > fumes from a diesel engine, British Journal Of Industrial >: > Medicine, 1957, Vol. 14, p. 47-55> >: >: > "Under these conditions the exhaust was acrid (causing lachrymation >: >in under 10 seconds). At times it was almost clear, but sometimes >: >white fumes were produced". >: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >: >: What are the "THESE" conditions? >: >: >[...] >: >: > "Under these conditions the engine produced a dense white smoke, >: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >: >apparently consisting mainly of unburnt oil; very little carbon >: >was present. The fumes were very acrid, causing intense pain to >: >the eye in 4 to 7 seconds. The visibility in the chamber was only >: >a few inches, and the lethal quality of the fumes was greater >: >than than under conditions A,B, and C". >: >: > >: >: How long did it take you to find a reference that indicated there >: are some conditions under which a diesel engine can produce other >: than blue or black exhaust? What chamber is this talking about? >HOw long did it take you to realize that you were wrong when you said that >diesel engines never give off white exhaust? How long will it take until >you admit you were wrong, given that everyone else can see it? It did take a minute after the extremely rich mixture was posted to realize this is not a discussion of exhaust but of vaporized oil. And as you should have read by now it raises huge problems with flammability of the buildings at all times and their being highly explosive while in use. While in use they could be described as fuel-air bombs. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:06 PDT 1996 Article: 35416 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 01:52:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4m94bo$fri@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <317b1767.6029655@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4lrrd9$nu@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4lu8jg$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3js7$pl@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4m7qpp$epu@hackberry.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 8:49:44 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >>>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp >>>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post. >> I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room. >>Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made >>it a gas chamber? >If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the >by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance. It is black and white so there is no evidence of any color. It is not clear that the walls are made of sheet iron so it is unclear what blue would have formed from. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:07 PDT 1996 Article: 35417 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 02:04:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <4m954j$l0d@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lmvic$s0j@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4m3g13$9pd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m6fkh$p94@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 9:02:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >: >Matt Giwer wrote: >: ># We know from eyewitness testimony >: ># >: ># 1) Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20 >: ># minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment. >: >No, this is false. Again, you prove that you are, plain and simple, >: >either a drunkard, senile, or simply retarded. The first gassing >: >in Auschwitz took place at the end of 1941. The Treblinka gas chambers >: >began operating after mid-1942. >: Here is part of the message posted by good, old OBC with the >: Nizkor reference. Or are you merely objecting to the date? >Of course he's objecting to the date; he's objecting to the ORDER you >placed it in -- that Treblinka was before Auschwitz, your false >assertion. He pointed out that Auschwitz was first, as it began in 1941, >and Treblinka began "after mid-1942." It really gets hard to keep the truthes straight here. Just yesterday I read a long post on how Hoess had selected one gas over the other because of Treblinka's experience with engine exhaust, that it required a bullet every now and then. What is the truth of the day in this regard? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:08 PDT 1996 Article: 35420 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!newshost.lanl.gov!ncar!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: Tales of the hyphenated god and its name Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:04:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4modu7$m98@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4lup31$bsf@access5.digex.net> <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m33qv$rua@shiva.usa.net> <4m48jr$r91@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m66ki$h16@news1.panix.com> <4m6apq$7ik@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4m8r <4mdb4o$ma5@news.nyu.edu> <4mes0e$hqj@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mlhol$h4s@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:05:11 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28004 alt.revisionism:35420 soc.culture.jewish:48474 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: e2$j4d@news1.panix.com> <4m9s99$9t0@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> >: >Distribution: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >: > >: >: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >: >: >: >>fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >: >: >: >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >: >: >: >>>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >: >: >: >>>>>In article <4lve6r$8gu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, >: >: >>>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines: >: >: >: >>>>> You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up. >: >: >: >>>>>All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer's skin! >: >: >>>>>Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he resorts to these >: >: >>>>>baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention from his own >: >: >>>>>intellectual dishonesty. >: >: >: >>>> Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority? >: >: >: >>>No, hyphenating God's name is a form of reminding one's self not to >: >: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >: >: >>>use His name in vain. Personally, I write out the whole word God. I >: >: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >: >: >>>think God has more to worry about than whether or not I'm saying >: >: >>>"God." >: >: >ALERT! ALERT! ALERT: The Giwer, in a blatant demonstration of his lack >: >of reading comprehension, accuses Mr. Katz of using a capitalized "god" >: >as the reference name, which isn't the proper name, and then blasts Mr. >: >Katz for this. Of course, if the Giwer had read this following >: >paragraph, he'd realize that he's just made an idiot of himself for the >: >5,632nd time. >: >: The only Hebrew injunction I am aware of is against speaking the >: name of god. To violate that injunction, it is against the >: speaking of the name of Yahweh God. The name is not God god. >: >: Consult your favorite version of Genesis. Your mileage may vary. >: >GIWER KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT JUDAISM ALERT: Wrong again, oh fat one. There >is an injunciton against "detroying" the name of G-d. This means that one >should not burn or otherwise destroy the name of G-d. Since some people >considered G-d to be the name in English, a custom arose of "hyphenating" >the name in written form. Anything else you need to know? The named god in Geneis is Yahweh. Its name is not God. But you would continue hyphenating your god based upon the incorrect beliefs of others. That is very strange. Perhaps next you will call him George? --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:09 PDT 1996 Article: 35423 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4movso$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4lmuq9$rbr@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4lof6h$1si@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4m1k8b$jvo@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4mmjrr$iu6@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:36 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Mark Van Alstine (mvanalst@rbi.com) wrote: >: I would therefore urge Giwer to >: support his origional statement showing that the amount of HCN produced >: by the Krema furnaces used at Auschwitz would produce more HCN than was >: present in the gas chambers from the homicidal use of Zyklon B. >What's more amusing about Myshkin's HCN emissions claim is that not only >is it irrelevant, but it contradicts one of the deniers' favorite arguments. >They tend to say, as you will recall, that the vents for the gas chambers >were so close to the SS barracks that they would have poisoned all of the >SS officers. Now Myshkin argues that the crematory smokestacks would >have produced more HCN than the gas chambers even if the gas chambers >were used for homicidal gassings! And yet there are, to my knowledge, >no denier claims of massive HCN poisoning due to crematory smokestack >emissions. When I first posted I said "probably" greater as I did not think much of the "close to the barracks" argument. Coke was used to fuel the Kremas. One of the industial sources is from the flue gases of coke fires. Which of the above do you have a problem with? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:10 PDT 1996 Article: 35424 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4movsk$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net> <4lprhi$frk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <26APR199618514917@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4m6i00$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <1MAY199608551352@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4m9ojd$7c9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m <4me234$qmp@news.nyu.edu> <4mhn8o$956@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mj5ug$6q8@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:32 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: b93f$ad5@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4mchud$3oi@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> >: >Distribution: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >: >: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: >: >: >: I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about >: >: >: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done >: >: >: it. Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as >: >: >: comedy of the absurd? >: >: >: >: >Because you apparently "did it" for twenty years without having the >: >: >slightest idea of how "it" is done? I dunno, just a guess... >: >: >: >: How would a college kid like you know? >: >: >The same way a guy with a Bachelor's only, and 20 years' separation from >: >academia, would know about what academics are, and what scholarship is? >: >: >The same way a guy with not a whit of training OR experience in law would >: >insist on legal points which contradict every all known legal scholarship >: >and judgments? >: >: In case you missed it, I was referring to 30 years of real life >: experience. >I'm sorry, Mr. Giwer, I didn't realize you had 30 years of real life >experience in the law. Or in Chemistry. Or in archaeology. Or in >anthropology. Or in history. Gee, what's your "life experience" in these >again? >Or do just claim that by the mere miracle of being alive, you became an >expert in these things? When you age enough to have it you will also have it. I doubt I will be alive to discuss what you have learned at that time. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:11 PDT 1996 Article: 35425 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies) Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 00:10:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 48 Message-ID: <4mooou$hhk@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <316a61e7.2309376@news.pacificnet.net> <4mh3n1$lof@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mkan2$c15@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 7:10:06 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: ># Sorry about your stupidity, no one who has EVER seen a diesel ># powered bus is going to believe your fabrications. >Sigh. If you could only read English, we could make some progress here. >I didn't write the Pattle et. al. paper about the experiments with the >diesel fumes. They did. >The largest amount of white smoke was present under condition D, >that is, the engine running without load, and with a fuel-air ratio >intentionally set to higher than the usual ratio. This resulted >in fumes which were more lethal than under other running conditions, >and therefore it is certainly possible that the SS, for some time, >ran the engines connected to the gas chambers under conditions >similar to D. >Obviously, a bus isn't run under such conditions; there is a load, >and the fuel-air ratio is correct. >The bottom line is that diesels can produce white smoke. This >was proved in the Pattle et. al. experiments. You appear to be describing a condition in which the mixture was so rich that the oil was pumped through completely unburned and appeared out the exhaust as a hot aerosol. In that case you would have these buildings saturated with oil quite quickly, making them major fire hazards. One spark from those trains and the entire complex would be up in flames. It is unclear how the place could have survived for so long under these hazardous conditions. And in this case you would not be talking about death by poisoning but by suffocation brought about by oil coated lungs. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:11 PDT 1996 Article: 35427 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Nizkor Project: Holocaust educational resource list Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 02:53:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4m97uo$kbr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m7gd7$n7q@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 9:51:04 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >Archive/File: /pub/bibliographies/biblio.INDEX >Last-modified: 1995/09/10 >I have assembled Holocaust bibliographic reference files, which are >available to anyone requesting them. They contain well over 2500 >entries, and will prove invaluable for anyone interested in learning >more about the collective events referred to as the Holocaust. What will be truly valuable is if you ever get a real search engine on the site instead of that "guess the filename" thing you have now. If there is any interest in research it will be by topic rather than by file name. That is why books have indexes as you know. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:12 PDT 1996 Article: 35431 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:29:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4mp4hj$7sp@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kv5gk$1m30@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4kvb87$hpo@wi.combase.com> <4l3dvq$f2i@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4l3n28$so3@wi.combase.com> <4l5m9o$4u@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4l684p$a71@wi.combase.com> <4lb3j8$1le0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4lq1hv$4k4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m16h0$1cug@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4m1gjo$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31854e14.67384384@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <318622A8.64D@nt.com> <31883aff.9899431@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4m9u71$ags@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <318a0a3a.44775711@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <318E0579.A13@nt.com> <318fffd0.14009841@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:30:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Mon, 06 May 1996 09:58:17 -0400, Alec Grynspan >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!> Whats so absurd about all this is that both you and Grynspan put your >!> lies up against the truth, get caught over and over again, and then >!> squawk like the little piggies you are about it. >! >!You always do have to try to pull down those who are more intelligent >!than you, don't you? >So whats yer IQ again Alec. I forget, wasnt it off the scale or >something? Yeah, yer a real friggin genious pal... :) >How did SOAPBOX ROCK end Alec? You and your gang of creeps banned seven >people, They were all you. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:13 PDT 1996 Article: 35433 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars... Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:04:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 536 Message-ID: <4m9fk4$sl6@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31618F8D.1086@kaiwan.com> <199604092128.RAA07778@panix2.panix.com> <31767F3F.7C7@kaiwan.com> <4l7ip4$1g0@wi.combase.com> <4lb6id$cch@news.nyu.edu> <4lmf9l$6im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4lrqvj$lau@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 12:01:56 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4lrqvj$lau@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >> >[snip] >> >REALITY CHECK: The standard bomb weight dropped by USAAF bombers in the >> >European theater was 500 lbs. >> >> The most common weight would not be the design maximum for any >> engineer. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer's "objection" is specious and irrelevent. The fact >remains that 500 lbs. was standard weight of the bombs dropped. Your ignorance of engineering notwithstanding there was no such thing as a standard. There was most certainly a most common size which could be calculated in at least two ways, either as greatest number or greatest weight of explosive. However, neither would mititgate against designing for 1000 pounder which were not uncommon. Some militarian historian may better fill in the numbers. It is your task to explain why a shelter would be designed for a lower weight than the weight that was the design maximum of allied bombers. >[snip] >> And since SCUDs in Iraq were a recent development it is not >> reasonable to expect that ALL air raid shelters would be >> immeditately rebuilt. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer's "objection" is specious and irrelevent. Israel has >been under threat from both aircraft and battlefield missles from Syria >for decades. As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any countries in the middle east. Russia and the US may have played off their clients against each other but they were not stupid about it. The closest you will find are fighters that can be configured for a bombing role. The last I heard only Israel had them as AIPAC objects to their being sold to the Saudis. >>The Al-Hussein coming at 550 lbs does not meet the 1000 lb expectation >>for Europe. >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, being the dullard he his, failed to clue into the >realization that todays munitions fillers, such as used in bombs, are >several times as powerful as those used in WWII. Hence, a modern-day >warhead that weighed 550 lbs could easily be more powerful (and >destructive) than a circa WWII 1,000 lb. bomb. As you should know did you not have your head up your ass the "weights" in the equivalent explosive value of a standard explosive. It has no relation to the actual weight weight of either the bomb or the explosive even in WW II. A 1000 pounder is still a thousand pounder. And a 550 pounder is still a 550 pounder. You are truly amazing. You know that you know nothing about this subject and yet you keep on coming. You are more reminiscent of a barroom brawler than a debater. >[snip] >> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer here claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_ use >> >a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a "bomb shelter," yet >> >they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans. >> >> Try reading for comprehension this time. >REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_ >use a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a "bomb shelter," yet >they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans. No many how many times you make your false statements they will not become true. I have said the design feature are those of a bomb shelter so if the morgue had any secondary purpose it was as a bomb shelter. You are the one with a morgue with unnecessary and more expensive features. >[snip] >> >One could, according to the Nazi designations, reasonably assume that this >> >meant that the Nazis origionally intenended them to be morgues. All of >> >which makes perfect sense as they were part of the Kremas who _purpose_ >> >was to incinerate corpses, which would be temporarily held in the morgues. >> >Furthermore, the location of the Kremas away from the camp population >> >(seperated by electrified fences, guards, etc.) made quick and easy access >> >to the L.Kellers impossible for the prisoners (or SS staff) in the camp. >> >This would mean that only the Krema "staff" would have timely access to >> >the L.Kellers. Why then would the Kremas, with a "staff" of a few dozen >> >people require _two_ "bomb shelters" that could hold several thousand >> >people? Not to mention that Kremas IV and V had no such underground >> >L.Kellers for their "staff" to use as "bomb shelters?" >> >> If you would read carefully you could save much of your time. >EVASION ALERT: Giwer, unable to coherently address the issues, ducks, >dodges, and weaves in a desperate, but unsuccessful, attempt to not appear >as a complete idiot. You are making claims that I have said something that I did not. I can not evade what I did not say. >> >> Certainly there is nothing in the construction that would be >> >> necessary for either a morgue or a gas chamber. One does not >> >> worry about the dead being able to breath or being hit by bombs. >> >> Nor does one need anything in this construction method for >> >> gassing. >> >> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, of course, to argue this must simply ignore that the >> >L.Keller 1, were modified during their construction to serve as gas >> >chambers. Because of this, in addition to adding the roof vents, >> >introduction columns, gas-tight doors (with glass peep-holes), and >> >_deaeration_ system, the corpse chutes (sites 30 and 30a), which led from >> >the surface to the L.Keller 1, which were already poured, had to be be >> >walled off, and their tops demolished. (_Anatomy_,p.224.) >> >> What you fail to note is that there is no documentation that >> states they are being modified into gas chambers. >PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer being the dishonest scum he is, not will >not acknowledge the many memos, letters, and receipts that show that >indeed the L.Keller 1s were converted into gas chambers prior to Kremas II >and III becoming operational. Excuse me but if there is such evidence PBS's Frontline failed to report it as you have failed to report it. Of course, it is only a TV program so Shtetl was an equally incompetant effort. But then since you know of so much evidence, post it. And send copies to the production company also as they did clearly state that there was no such evidence. >> The modification to that purpose is what people are reading into what >> they find and do not want to find anything contrary to that. >> They are searching very hard to find sinister reasons behind >> design features while ignoring quite mundane reasons. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, in his irrational defense of his bigotry, overlooks >the simple fact that it is rather _easy_ to find sinister reasons behind >the "design features" of the L.Kellers, as the evidence of them being gas >chambers is overwhelming and accepted by historians. In contrast, it is >Giwer, and other deniers, who (unsuccessfully) grasp at all straws, such >as claiming the L.Kellers were bomb shelters and not gas chambers, that >shows the intellectual, as well as moral, bankruptcy of their position in >denying this. It is very rare that real historians can come to some sort of unanimous agreement from information that has only been available for a few short years (Russian remember?) and is barely in publication. It is hard to explain the interest in this material if it merely repeats what has always been known. You are clearly misrepresenting the material. The only question is whether or not you are doing it knowingly. >> >> But what we do have is a more expensive construction than >> >> necessary and was quite clumsy for either either a morgue or >> >> gassing but ideal for a bomb shelter. >> >> >REALITY CHECK: Except for the minor detail that due to the fact that the >> >roofs of the large L.Kellers (with lots of exposed surface area for the >> >blast/overpressure to be applied to) were _above_ ground, and quite >> >vulnerable to near or direct hits from even a 500 lb. bomb.... >> >> That is why they are reinforced concrete rather than wood. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, overlooks that conrete was (and is) a common >construction material for large structures. However the Krema itself is in the same place and does not have such a roof and is on the same order of size as is the undressing room. Yet they do not have this more expensive construction method. However, as Giwer has now >_claimed_ that the roof of the L.Kellers were contructed of re-inforced >concrete _because_ they were bomb shelters, I ask that Giwer produce his >evidence supporting his claim. As he is arguing an alternative to the Null >argument that accepts that the L.Keller 1s were gas chambers and NOT bomb >shelters, failure to support his claims will be grounds to dismiss Giwer's >claims as specious drivel. The evidence is in the design features of course. It is not a necessary design feature of either a morgue or a gas chamber. After all, everyone is guessing here. The "researchers" have noted there are no statements or labeling on any of the documents discovered to indicate any other purpose than a morgue -- your misrepresentations to the contrary. >> The U-boat pens were covered with rebar concrete and were pounded >> with (sorry) 1000 lb bombs but they continued operating until >> they were physically captured. I am not able to compare >> thickness at this time. >INTELLECTUAL DISHONSETY ALERT: Giwer, being dishonest by nature it seems, >attempts to compare U-Boat pens, whose roofs were built with re-inforced >concrete tens of feet thick, for the express purpose of withstanding >aerial bombardment, to a morgue cum gas chamber with a roof a few tens of >centimeters thick, and which was easily demolished by a few crates of >dynamite! I found a picture of what was supposed to the be remains of the roof on Nizkor. I would suggest you go there, use their powerful search engine, and take a look at it also. And while you are there find the documentation for the amount of dynamite used. After that, learn the difference between setting of an explosion inside and outside of a building. >> And on the drawings I have seen the walls appear to have been >> been bermed with earth which would 1) shield the walls 2) deflect >> the overpressure thus offering proction from a near miss. >> >> There is nothing in this construction necessary to either a >> morgue or a gas chamber. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. Is there any other kind of gas chamber? >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. We will see your addressing the issues when you respond to my quesitons on these matters in another message. >> >> The kicker in all of this is the roof being rebar construction. >> >> All the temperature benefits of underground construction can be >> >> obtained with a simple wooden roof just like in cellars today >> >> although the "roof" is the ground floor. >> >> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, of course, again chooses to ignore that the use of >> >reinforced concrete was (and is) a standard construction technique for >> >such large structures. The load factor for such roofs, especially >> >considering that they were _flat_, not to mention that unreinforced >> >concrete is structurally weak, makes, reinforcement neccesary. Especially >> >considering the snow loads that would occur during winter on such a large >> >exposed, and _flat_, roofs.... >> >> Try it again. A PEAKED wooden roor would have been quite >> satisfactory for a morgue or a gas chamber. There is no >> necessary requirement for a flat roof or a concrete roof for >> either application. >REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer, of course, again chooses to ignore that the >use of reinforced concrete was (and is) a standard construction technique for >such large structures. The load factor for such roofs, especially >considering that they were _flat_, not to mention that unreinforced >concrete is structurally weak, makes, reinforcement neccesary. Especially >considering the snow loads that would occur during winter on such a large >exposed, and _flat_, roofs.... I am obviously more aware of such construction than you are. It is up to you to answer why a more expensive construction method would have chosen when it was unnecessary. There was no requirement for it to be flat in the first place. The Krema roof is not flat. But you will continue to refuse to address why such a more expensive roof is a necessary design feature of either a morgue or a gas chamber. >> >> >And why do you think that "I can think of a better way to do it" >> >> >disproves anything? >> >> >PAUPACY ALERT: Indeed. Of course, when Giwer thinks of a "better" way to >> >do it it "proves" he was right! Typical Giwer double-standard. >> >> This is not a better way. It is simply looking at the design >> features without the preconception of a gas chamber and then >> twisting what would be found in a bomb shelter into some sinister >> use in gassing. >REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, when Giwer thinks of a "better" way to >do it it "proves" he was right! Typical Giwer double-standard. This is not better. It is cheaper. It is the use of a more expensive method on one of three buildings. Now if you want to suggest that Topf was merely padding the contract you might have something to pursue. These days it would an example of those damned defense contractors ripping off the taxpayers. >> >> It is not a matter of thnking of a better way. It is a >> >> familiarity with design and construction. >> >> >REALITY CHECK: A familiarity that Giwer obviously lacks. Or does Giwer, >> >now also claim to be an "expert" in architectural design as well? >> >> I have been over bomb shelter construction and blast effects in >> my time. >REALITY CHECK: References, please. I'd say that it's not that I didn't >believe you, but the fact is I don't believe you. I trust you and your >word, Giwer, about as far as I could hurl an elephant. But since you know that you do not have any such knowledge or experience, you have no way to judge what I am saying. Your basic ignorance of bomb rating is enough to demonstrate that. At this point I would be amazed of you could give a working descripion of why overpressure causes damage or that you could understand the one I would give. But were I to give it you would run off with your scientifically illiterate nonsense would continue. But here is a simple test, what besides overpressure does this type of construction protect against? That is about as simple I can make it for you to start your learning process. And the hint was that if you did know anything about explosive damage you would have made a point of my mentioning only one of the damage mechanisms. >> But then I will have to ask you, are the people who are >> going over these drawings and finding sinister meanings in these >> features expert in the construction of large scale gas chambers? >> I am unaware of any repository of such knowledge. >PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer ignores the simple fact that the Nazis >themselves confirmed that they were indeed gas chambers. It doesn't take >an expert to understand that.... Again you need to get your information to the production company at PBS and all the "researchers" in the program who never heard of your information either. >> In any event it is good that you brought it up before I did and >> we have an agreement the people making these sinister discoveries >> are not expert in large scale gas chambers. >GIWER LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH ALERT: Of course, Giwer realizes that no >such "agreement" exists. Yet, in his desperation, me must make such lies >as he hasn't an intellectual leg to stand-on. Then you insist they are expert in the construction of large scale gas chambers? Where were they educated in this arcane field? >"Yes, it's true, this man has no dick." -Ghostbusters College kid? >> >> Yet what we see now is people going over these drawings and the >> >> building with the preconceived notion that it was a gas chamber >> >> and twisting every design feature into something useful for >> >> gassing. They are clearly finding what they want to find. >> >> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, in looking at the contruction plans (IF he ever >> >looked at the plan!) casts a blind eye to the fact that the Nazis >> >themselves, origionally, had the notion that the L.Kellers were to be >> >morgues! And of course, when Giwer decides to twist every design feature >> >(real or imagined) into something that supports his claim that the >> >L.Kellers were bomb shelters, he doesn't consider that "clearly finding" >> >what HE wants to find, applies to himself! Yet more Giwer >> >double-standards. >> >> I simply point out that there is no necessary of a morgue or gas >> chamber but many of the design features of a bomb shelter. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. A steel door in one place and wood in another? Not very consistent of them. >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. And of course you will answer all of the questions I have posed in the other message first. You even shot down one of your own points in this one. >> In fact it was not until the PBS Frontline show this week on >> these morgues that I realized from the people's own descriptions >> of their work that they were going over the available drawings >> and discovering these things. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. You have done nothing but deliberately misrepresent what is happening with regard to this new information. >> They were going over information that "carefully avoided" any >> mention of the true purpose and they were trying to find a >> gassing purpose for the features on the drawings. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. >> Thus all of these gassing features are, by their own words, what >> they have found a gassing purpose for without knowing what the >> feature might in fact be for. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. >> Another factor to consider is that these were ad hoc >> modifications by people who also would have had not data base for >> large scale gassing facitlities. So there is no way to say >> anything more certain than, "This could have been used to >> facilitate gassing," as there are no standard features for large >> scale gas chambers. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. >> On the other hand I can point to well established features of >> bomb shelters. Consider it a side benefit of having grown up in >> the 50s when building them was a popular activity. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the >L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the >furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary "construction," >to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber. >Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No. You repetition is very silly when you have addressed nothing I have asked you as yet. >> >> It is probably like that tank engine found outside a building >> >> which was declared to be for gassing people inside the building. >> >> It is the quest for a sinister purpose for everything found. >> >> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, of course, as he prides himself in his ignorance, >> >overlooks the minor detail that the tank engine used for gassing at >> >Treblinka was loacted INSIDE a building and connected by a system of pipes >> >to the gas chambers there! >> >> I asked for a picture of that one, with all of the engine >> mounting, fuel lines and tank, starter and batteries and >> associated electrical equipment for some time ago and no one >> offered such a picture. I even mentioned the necessary building >> and still there was no response. >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, of course, must realize that Treblinka was erased by >the Nazis? And that there may be no surviving photos of what he asks for? >Only a dishonest fool, such as Giwer, would then suggest that a lack of a >photo, especially when multiple accounts confirm that the engines were >housed in a building, mean that they weren't. What does erased mean in terms of physical evidence? How does one "erase" an entire camp? Do you mean dismantled and spread around the countryside? Where could everything have gone? How many months did they have to evacuate ahead of the Russians? >> Would you care to point to either a picture or a description of >> all of that equipment mounted in an operational manner? >REALITY CHECK. Perhaps if Giwer were to READ a book or two about the >subject he wouldn't have to ask such silly questions! Books like _The >Destruction of the European Jews_ and the _Death Dealer: the memoirs of >the SS Kommandantat Auschwitz_, for starts. He might also try some books >specifically about Treblinka. That was posted here. It was not as necessary to support the position. >> >> >: ># Looking at it another way, certainly if the Nazis had been making >> >> >: ># gigantic mass murder gassing chambers, the likes of which the world >> >> >: ># has never seen, there would be more evidence as to their actions >> >> >: ># than an order for an air-tight door or two, don't you think? >> >> >: >> >> >: >But there is much more evidence. >> >> >> >> >: Which you refuse to produce. >> >> >> >> >DENIER TECHNIQUE #2: Insist, in the face of mountains that evidence, >> >> >that NONE EXISTS BECAUSE IT ISN"T RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU AT THAT SECOND. >> >> >Never admit that any evidence has been produced. Stick head in sand. >> >> >> >> I have been over every bit of evidence that has been presented, >> >> primarily the Wannsee conference, which does not contain such >> >> evidence even though it was offered in German as such evidence. >> >> The holohugger technique is to pretend such things have never >> >> been discussed and found wanting. >> >> >MAJOR PAUPACY ALERT: A typical denier rationalization to obscure the >> >simple fact that, in truth, Giwer has _rejected_ every bit of sustainable >> >evidence that does not conform to his prejudices concerning the Holocaust. >> >> Eyewitness testimony is not evidence. >GIWER LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH ALERT: Of course eyewitness testimony is >considered evidence. Giwer, after proven wrong about this, continues to >lie, thus compoubding the problem, rather than own up to his stupidity. >This, of course is the typical behavior of Giwer, the dickless wonder. People's exhibit 23, the testimony of ... Ever heard of such a line? Testimony is called testimony because it is not evidence. Evidence is that physical stuff that is numbered and kept in the property room. I find it amazing that all of the self proclaimed and wannabe attornies here have failed to note the difference. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:14 PDT 1996 Article: 35435 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:47:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4mp5ff$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m4h26$jsr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m681g$5ct@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4m8q41$3dn@news.nyu.edu> <4ma05d$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mcf1s$9ps@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mdpvh$p9r@informer1.cis.McMaster <4mgr8v$7hd@news.nyu.edu> <4mm5ek$lat@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4mo3dd$44e@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:46:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> And I am certainly Miss Laura can speak for herself without your >>help. Are you trying to pick up the women here? > Well, I can see why Giwer has such a reputation - he accuses someone >of being a "college kid" (implying immaturity and lack of experience), then >sneers at someone in a manner of an insecure teenager. I was merely highlighting again the holohugger/amen corner tendency to jump in and speaking for those with their same mindset. I happened to read two messages in a row where you were speaking for women. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:15 PDT 1996 Article: 35443 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm) Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:35:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 166 Message-ID: <4mp89m$hbc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lemk0$gi2@tribune.concentric.net> <4lev1d$de2@wi.combase.com> <4lj8cr$gdn@shiva.usa.net> <4ljo6e$d28@wi.combase.com> <4lr0to$msk@hackberry.zilker.net> <4ls4q5$974@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4ltghl$bp7@boris.eden.com> <4ludnh$ecd@dfw-ixnews4 <4m0q2b$vg@news.nyu.edu> <4mm2bn$gk8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mntq2$tne@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:35:02 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: .ix.netcom.com> >: >Distribution: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >: >: >: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >: >: >: >[snipped nonsense] >: >: >: >>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >: >: >: >>>Oh, hell, Mr. Giwer, accept yourself for what you are. At least be >: >: >>>that honest! The word bigot applies to you via what you post. I >: >: >>>understand that most of those who troll-post aren't fully aware of >: >: >>>what they post. Since this is probably your problem, I suggest you be >: >: >>>more aware of the posts your make and the impression they provide to >: >: >>>us who read them. >: >: >: >> In other words, no answer. >: >: >: >See above. >: >: >: >> Try it this way. There is no evidence the Spanish blew up the >: >: >>Maine. Show me the bigotry in that statement, fool. >: >: >: >What has the Maine to do with the Holocaust or the facts in my >: >: >explanation above? Hmmmm? >: >: >: There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the >: >: holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement. >: >: >That's an interesting analogy -- cxonsidering that you aren;t arguing the >: >Maine; you also accept that Stalin slaughted millions; you accept a lot >: >of things -- you just don't accept that he Nazis gassed the Jews. >: >: How would you know what I accept about Stalin? As for the >: gassing issue, I never bothered questioning the subject until I >: found that Zyklon B was HCN and kitty litter. That is when my >: concept of what happened started unraveling. So you can see why >: I have the most problems with the gassing. >So all of your trollign consists entirely of your demonstrated lack of >knowledge of chemsitry? that's almost disappointing, given the ignorance >you've shown in every other subject. I would have thought you would at least have said toxicology. But you miss the point, it made sense as long it was the nerve gas I was presuming it to be. It might have been OK if it had been gas in the form of a gas. But remember you are the one who relied upon the authority of a chemist to arrive at the opinion of my ignorance of chemisty and now he has agreed that coke fires produce HCN and that bones burn. Those are two out of three of the things he deceived you on and he is still stringing the exothermic combustion of the human body. >: >Take that in conjunction with your constant posting s about Israel -- >: >which have nothing to do with the Holocaust. >: >: As I have noted, I did not introduce Israel to the discussion. >: The first I saw about Israel was the post the libeled Pat >: Buchanan as being anti-semitic based upon some out of context >: quotes about Israel. None of the gang of six objected to that >: post so it would appear reasonable that Israel is a subject of >: discussion on this conference. >If relevant, yes. But once again you haven;t explained how the bombing of >Qana determines the truth or falsity of the holocaust. The Buchanan >discussion was concerning Pat's motives for denying the existence of gas >chambers. His denial was a statement on one of four or five points Nor has anyone explained what libeling Buchanan on all of those points has to do with it. You first. >: >Then throw in your statements about Jews (which are enough to establish >: >your anti-Jwe sentiments by themslves) -- "tribesmen," "goat-herding >: >fantasies" et al, and you have the evidence of your anti-Semitism right >: >there. >: >: As covered in another and more extensive post, I was silent on >: the subject of Jews out of context to the holocaust until some >: members of the gang of six and the amen corner started calling me >: antisemitic and a neo-nazi. And those were alleged solely upon >: my very on topic statements about gassing. >: >: Do you expect me to remain silent? >No, I expect you do what you just did -- lie because you're backed into a >corner. You are the one who was deceived into believing I lie. But in any event you do agree that I did not start the name calling. >: >It's interesting that you insult all Jews with epithets while >: >simultaneously denying your anti-Semitism. One conclude either that >: >you're lying in one or the other, or that you're an incompetent old >: >senile fool who can't remember what he's said from one day to the next. >: >At this point, I lean towards the former. >: >: But you do have to put things in the order they occurred. The >: charge of anti-semitism against me arose as above prior to any >: negative statements about Jews. It is experiences like that >: which could certainly make one anti-semitic. You folks appear to >: be attempting to generate self-fulfilling prophecies, attempting >: to make enemies. >HAr har. Once again, the Giwer makes vague lying representations about >what somebody else said on the group. Got any evidence of this? NO, >because it's not true. Of course. Mere repetition makes it true. >: And I have noticed this tendency to make enemies extends to many >: areas. In fact the first time I was called anti-semitic was in a >: public discussion and I rather casually noted that Israel lacked >: any strategic importance to the US. I received several responses >: which I proceeded to refute. After several exchanges the >: response was on the order of, 'you refuse to admit it so you must >: be anti-semitic.' That is something I appear to share with >: Buchanan. >Proof, please. You;ve demonstrated so much anti-Semitism, I find it hard >to believe that anyone would ever even find a time when you weren't. But of course your memory is so poor that you do not remember which side started the name calling. >: It is clearly not an honest person who equates either the >: strategic importance or lack thereof of Israel with >: anti-semitism. Nor is refusing things as evidence of gassing >: when to my mind they are not evidence of gassing for clearly >: stated reasons anti-semitic. Yet that was the charge. >: >Nope. Strategic importance, Israel's policies -- these by themselves have >nothing to do with anti-Semitism. COmments about Jewish control, Calling >all Jews names liek "tribesmen" and "primitive", -- these are >anti-Semitic. I did not start the name calling. >: Why have I been so charged for such tangient matters? >Awwww.....poor Matt. The mean ol' Jews are picking on him. That is not an answer to the quesiton ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:16 PDT 1996 Article: 35445 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research' Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:50:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4m8pq2$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <829997533snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <830092928snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <830331569snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4lr3hv$mtq@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <830694142snz@aba <4m6g5j$p94@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:49:38 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: ron.demon.co.uk> <3185569e.1306892@news.srv.ualberta.ca> >: <4m492n$3ke@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Distribution: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: >: >I suppose if I was an old man near death and had been unjustly accused >: >of participation in mass murder, I might want to clear the air before >: >I died. Suchomel did not deny his participation in mass murder, but >: >instead confirmed it. >: I find the faith in "deathbed" confessions touching but with no >: particular basis in fact even if the person can be demonstrated >: to have had an anquished conscience about the matter. >Fascinating. Why is it, do you suppose, that the "deathbed confession" >is one of the recognized exceptions to the Hearsay rule in the FRE and in >most states' laws? As I said, touching. Since when am I supposed ot explain legal traditions when there is an attorney here to answer all of your questions? Perhaps he will be able to state the tests such confessions were subjected to before whatever you are suggesting was permitted? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:17 PDT 1996 Article: 35446 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: USS LIBERTY Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4m8psc$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4krsqc$ge8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4kuptr$966@wi.combase.com> <4l08jq$e6u@news.nyu.edu> <4lqjfk$fm3@news.cc.utah.edu> <4m0qul$vg@news.nyu.edu> < <4m37kr$ah2@news.nyu.edu> <4m3o95$nrk@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m6g37$p94@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:50:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35446 alt.conspiracy:47923 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: 4m1fn7$t3n@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> >: >Distribution: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >Silly Giwer. Your discussion is for kids. Israel's location has long >: >been a strategic gateway for access to other parts of the region. >: You are the one who knows what it is. Please demonstrate it. Or >: are you talking about all of those land troop movements through >: Israel in the Gulf War? >: In other words, you have not the slightest idea of military >: strategy. All you do is parrot assertions that have heard many >: times without understanding what was being said. >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Good choice, Mr. Giwer, the Persian Gulf War, especially since it's not >contiguous to Iraq and ISrael didn't participate. >Tell you what; study the history of war in the Middle East, then come >back and talk to me. Israel's historic role as gateway for armies >stomping around the Middle East has existed since before the Egyptians and >Babylonians were snarling at each other. As I said, POST Wright Brothers. Welcome to the 20th century. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:17 PDT 1996 Article: 35447 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:10 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 65 Message-ID: <4m8psh$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <3177851d.785152@news.pacificnet.net> <21APR199607522012@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4lru3c$sl7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m09rl$v5h@news.nyu.edu> <4m4a3g$c6q@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4m6ful$p94@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:50:57 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: >: >: >In article <3177851d.785152@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >: >: >>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >: >: >> >: >: >> Terrible thing. Moran forgot to include one other little news >: >: >>bit. Reported in the N.Y. Times, was an incident in a New Hampshire >: >: >>High school that happened around Christmas time two years ago. >: >: >> What happened was a group of kids were singing Christmas >: >: >>carols in the hallway when a Jewish girl came up and ask them to stop. >: >: >>The report didn't say on what grounds the girl based her request, but >: >: >>it was probably something she learned at home or ethnically nearby. >: >: >>Whatever it was, the kids didn't like it and roughed her up. The >: >: >>report mentioned how many kids were enrolled in the school, citing >: >: >>2500, of which 15 were Jewish. >: >: >> No doubt the whole school was abuzz with the whole affair. >: >: >> Talk about mass alienation and a quick lesson for the 2,485. >: >: > I am curious, Tom. Seeing that you have - or will have - Jewish >: >: > grandkids, how will you react when they come home from school having >: >: > been roughed up? How will you react when they come home crying after >: >: > Milt Kleim, Jr. tells them that he will make sure to get them during >: >: > the next Holocaust? Just wondering how all this will effect you now >: >: > that you have a Jewish family yourself? >: >: Perhaps his grandchildren will be polite and not do such things? >: >You think it's polite for little kids to refrain from crying after being >: >told they're going to be gotten in the next Holocaust? Or after being >: >roughed up? Weird. >: You are so old you have forgotten childhood? Have you honestly >: forgotten that any reason and no reason could result in the same >: thing? >Nope. But the fact is, Mr. "I'm going to try and change the subject" >Giwer, this is no a case of being beat up for no reason. This was a >question of whether Moran would condone his grandkids being beat up for >being Jewish, and whether they would come home crying. You stated you >didn't think it would be ppolite for them to come home crying. You aew a >very odd old man. Changing the subject from what children do to each other to what? >: Excuse me but I can not believe your sincerity in this matter. >Tough. YOu are still a very odd old man. What would age matter? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:18 PDT 1996 Article: 35448 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4m8psr$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4l8u4i$ev@wave.rio.com> <4l99kb$sln@wi.combase.com> <3179f0df.6747453@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4lh55a$k3m@wave.rio.com> <4lh7eg$15f@wi.combase.com> <22APR199621565293@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4ll9li$s4m@hackberry.zilker.net> <4lmrnn$dhm@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4m7qph$epu@hackberry.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:07 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >>>> I agree that Chuck's postings are threats and wish he would stop. Just >>>> because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no >>>> reason to intimate physical threats. There is no positive outcome that >>>> can be realized from making such threats, idle or not. >>>I agree, Chuck get excited. The "Al Gentile" showed up on compuserve >>>in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken >>>McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. "Al Gentile" is just >>>another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too. >> Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous? You people >>will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear. >Then how come the Simon W. Center has never heard of this name? Yup, >the lies are still coming fast and furious. Incredible. Absolutely >incredible. Perhaps his name sounded too goy. Why should I be explaining your report of their problem? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:19 PDT 1996 Article: 35449 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A Letter to News Editors Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <4m8pt3$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <31756773.4499@gumbo.bae.lsu.edu> <4l9ik9$4ic@wi.combase.com> <4leg11$dko@news.nyu.edu> <4lnipf$fnu@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4loqh2$1jf@news.nyu.edu> <4lpton$m6h@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m6gc7$p94@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:15 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >Oh, dear. Mr. Giwer is once again blowing his never-believed-anyhow >: >: >theory that he has nothing against Joooos, but is just interested in the >: >: >truth of the Holocaust. I guess he just couldn't pass up a chance to get >: >: >in a dig (via someone else's words) at Jewish Israelis. >: >: >Be a polite person, Mr. Giwer, and take this talk.politics.middle-east, >: >: >willya? >: >: For a slanderous idiot who continues to prove selective >: >: condemnation with the use of joooos vice jews you have nothing to >: >: contribute. >: >Does this rambling, content-free, rude response mean that the Giwer >: >considers this discussion germaine to alt.revisionism? >: >And if so, one must ask: why? >: >The answer: anti-Semitic troll, looking for attention. >: When you correct the boy claiming Israel is a Jewish nation you >: will have a leg to stand on. >Much as I find your constant uncited references to what someone else said >fascinating, I see no need here. Please illuminate us, oh grand poo-bah, >as to why the discussion of Israel is germaine to a discussion of the >Holocaust. Damned if I know. I first encountered it when there was some slanders posted about Pat Buchanan and the claim was that he was talking about Jews when he was talking about Israel. I noticed no objections to that post so I naturally assumed you folks saw it fitting in some how. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:20 PDT 1996 Article: 35450 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 78 Message-ID: <4m8ptc$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4lmuq9$rbr@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4lof6h$1si@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4m1k8b$jvo@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:24 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4m1k8b$jvo@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >[snip] >> Excuse me, Mr. wannabe Stanford Dr. Chemist Sir, just where is it >> written that you can challenge my statement that there was more >> HCN produced by the Kremas than was used by in any gassing when >> you knew that flue gases from coke fires were one of the >> commercial sources of it? >REALLY MAJOR REALITY CHECK: Since when was permission required before >Giwer's stupendously absurd claims could be addressed? Never. That Giwer >thinks there is simply evidences his deteriorating mental state. Furthmore, >as Giwer (in article <4g1eho$a70@wi.combase.com>) made the origional >unsupported statement that "[t]he fire would of course probably produce >more HCN than was used in any gassing unless there was quite some care in >producing complete combustion," it is required of Giwer to offer evidence >in support of this. To date he has not. I would therefore urge Giwer to >support his origional statement showing that the amount of HCN produced >by the Krema furnaces used at Auschwitz would produce more HCN than was >present in the gas chambers from the homicidal use of Zyklon B. You should read more of what is on the conference. Three commercial sources of HCN we listed just last week. One of them was from the flue gases of a coke fire. >In other words, using Krema II as our test case, please show that 875 kg >of coke (the amount used to for the first incineration from a cold furnace), >combusted under a near-optimal fuel/air ratio, would produce more HCN than >6 kg of Zyklon B. (6 kg. of Zyklon B contains 4 kg of HCN >[_Nazi Mass Murder_, p. 206].) >Falure to do so, of course, means that Giwer's claim is specious and >therefore can be dismissed out of hand. (As if it already hasn't been!) Now you are insisting upon production rates when you appear to have stipulated it is produced and even quoted my use of the word "probably." What is your problem? >> Or did you not know that that when you started your game? And if >> you did know, as such a highly educated person should know, just >> what what the purpose of your of your month long game playing? >To demonstrate that you're a big-mouthed twit who doesn't have the balls >to back up what he says? Lets see, we got as far as the calories need to boil off the water from flesh and we are still awaiting the number of calories he is going to get from 1/10 gm of remaining flesh. But what is it that makes you think he needs you to fly to his rescue in this matter? >> Your lack of integrity is now on permanent record at Nizkor. How >> about having it brought to the attention of your thesis advisor? >REALITY CHECK: I would suggest that rather than concerning himself with >purile and baseless attacks about others' integrity, he look towards his >own tattered shreds of integrity first. He can start by substantiating his >claims regarding HCN. Read the newsgroup and keep up to speed. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:21 PDT 1996 Article: 35451 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm) Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:53:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 32 Message-ID: <4m8pu2$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lemk0$gi2@tribune.concentric.net> <4lev1d$de2@wi.combase.com> <4lj8cr$gdn@shiva.usa.net> <4ljo6e$d28@wi.combase.com> <4lr0to$msk@hackberry.zilker.net> <4ls4q5$974@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4ltghl$bp7@boris.eden.com> <4ludnh$ecd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m1ok4$mku@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4m67no$77n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m7s50$5b7@moe.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:46 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >: >Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: >: There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the >: >: holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement. >: >: >I hope everyone was paying attention and noticed that Giwer now admits >: >that he is a bigot. >: >: It was just admitted that the statement, "There is no evidence >: the Spanish blew up the Maine" was not a bigotted statement. >: >: Would you like to show me the "bigotry" in both statements or why >: there is a difference between the two statements? >The first statement is false, and the second is true. The first is, >in fact, so clearly and obviously false that bigotry is one of the >few plausible explanations for it, along with ignorance, stupidity >and trollery. Care to choose one? What does truth or falsity have to do with bigotry? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:21 PDT 1996 Article: 35452 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm) Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:53:09 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <4m8pua$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lemk0$gi2@tribune.concentric.net> <4lev1d$de2@wi.combase.com> <4lj8cr$gdn@shiva.usa.net> <4m3ff5$9g6@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m6foe$p94@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >: >In article <4lev1d$de2@wi.combase.com>, >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@combase.com) whines: >: > The problem is your ability to read. >: >Mr. Giwer has amply demonstrated that his reading skills are not up >: >to snuff! Quite ironic that the man who cannot tell the difference >: >between "and" and "or" presumes to lecture others on their reading >: >skills. >: People are Jews by religion and birth. >One hundred thousand cats and dogs were in the building. >"Boy, those sure are weird half-cat half-dogs Mr. Giwer sees, aren't they?" Again, you continue to substitute multiple subjects into the construction of the sentence. >: > 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. >: >--Matt "I said it, but I will blame you for it!" Giwer >: > What kind of truth is it that needs protection? >: >Truth that is under attack by lying bigots like Mr. Giwer! >: Feeling like Superman? Defending truth and justice? Such a >: noble calling. >Uh, life isn't a comic book, Mr. Giwer. He just talked about truth. And of course needed you to leap to his defense. Are you his sidekick? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:22 PDT 1996 Article: 35456 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: The idiocy of giwers Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:40:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4mmrgl$gav@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <4j12kg$55b@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4lhqkt$b4g@wi.co <4m3bgf$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4mgmmp$a4@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:44:37 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28036 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19380 alt.discrimination:46596 alt.revisionism:35456 alt.skinheads:22257 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote: >>phone calls. And he still thinks I work for IBM. Poor frightened >>delusional old Giwer-troll. >Moved over from Internet Direct, eh? >-- >The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource > Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? > Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) Fascinating that someone remembers the difference between direct and indirect despite the denials and changed messages posted here. But of course, someone will change your post and swear to it. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:23 PDT 1996 Article: 35457 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer continues to hog this site. Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:45:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4mmrop$gav@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <318BE2D0.639D@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:48:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Chuck Ferree wrote: >Over 450 posts, many new ones, on a great variety of topics and >subject matter. Just take a peek at Giwers number of posts. And to >make matters worse, you have to read the crap to get rid of it. He >babbles on and on about everything, contending that his superior IQ of >20-30 something gives him some kind of an edge. If the man would just >deal with the subject at hand, this could be an interesting site for >intelligent discussions. Matt Giwer prevents that from happening and >he loves every minute of it. Ever see a dog roll around in the grass >on another dogs droppings? That dog loves to rub dog shit all over his >body and this behavior reminds me of Matt Giwer. It's illogical, >stinks up the place, and the smelly dog ends up sleeping in the cold >as a result of this natural impulse to smear doggie doo doo on his own >body. Giwers sure reminds me of my dog, an ugly mutt, no brains, >useless won't even bark at burglars, just takes up space, and sheds >hair all over the carpet. Needs to be loved though, in spite of the >problems he creates. He's old, some day soon the Vet will tell us it's >time, and bye bye pooch. Then all I'll have is old Matt Giwer, rolling >around in doo doo, smelling up the place, taking up too much space, >contributing nothing to make society better. Pathetic!!! ;-) >Chuck Ferree Hey, nerfbrain (a harmless imitation of the real thing), how can I be hogging a group that will expand to fit the message traffic? Try the warez group for ibm binaries and see how bit a site can really be. But you were a ranking officer? translator? pilot? ranking officer staff? on that trip to A-B? It is no secret today that more people were in Vietnam combat than the Army has any record of. WW II heros are no less plentiful. Got a real name, rank and serial number for us? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:24 PDT 1996 Article: 35467 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:01:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4mmsld$atq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mhr94$s8n@Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:04:13 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote: >Um... Giwer? Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but Ken isn't Jewish. >Neither is Jamie, and neither am I. >-rich > http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html Called the amen corner the last I heard. I have never stated there was only one component to this phenomenon. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:24 PDT 1996 Article: 35479 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Rack Jite is Dave Dahlman of El Lago Texa anyway? Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:27:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4m9rjj$83c@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <3180D3FE.7F60@nt.com> <31819f88.29146783@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3184CF32.7BCF@nt.com> <318550e4.68104580@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <31862A5C.306E@nt.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 3:26:27 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Alec Grynspan wrote: >!Rack Jite wrote: >> >> On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:16:18 -0400, Alec Grynspan >> wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >> >> !Your real name is [NAME, ADDRESS, SUB DIVISION, STATE] >Dave Dahlman, 315 Biscayne, El Lago, Texas >> >> And becase your Jew hating friend Giwer is not supposed to post >Matt may or may not hate Jews. What has that got to do with anything. Alec, I hate you. You will never see me in only a talith again. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:26 PDT 1996 Article: 35493 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 00:40:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 764 Message-ID: <4m90c5$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net> <4las0p$170@boris.eden.com> <317918b0.14262209@news.pacificnet.net> <4lsqag$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <27APR199613080858@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4lvbf2$qq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4m09ep$v5h@news. <4m6oii$qku@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 7:41:41 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: nyu.edu> <4m4g2b$8cr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> >Distribution: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: >: >: >>> This statement is correct. I might not word it exactly like Giwer has, >: >: >>> but it is true that observation is less reliable than other forms of >: >: >>> documentation and measurement. >: >: >> >: >: >> But you will also agree that if one eyewitness is corrrect they >: >: >>war all correct. >: >: > Your statement is vague and can be interpretated in a number of ways. >: >: What is vague about, it one is correct all are correct? >: >Well, the word "war," is confusing in that context, but I'll leave that >: >aside. >: When all else fails... >: >What is vague is whether or not that statement is dealing with hwhat you >: >belive as the cause portion of the evidentiary process, or wether, as >: >stated below, you're merely asserting the xistence of a tautology. >: >The statement you made is not necessarily correct or incorrect. If you >: >had stated "whenever one eyewitness makes a correct statement, and other >: >eyewitnesses have concurring eyewitness testimony" -- that would be >: >addressable. Or if you had said "the fact that one witness is accurate >: >makes all witnesses accurate" -- that would also be addressable. But >: >what you've stated is so vague as to be right, wrong, or unprovable >: >either way, depending on the interpretaiton. >: You folks are clearly unwilling to admit the "testimony" that >: engine exhaust is nearly as equally as toxic as cyanide is false >: and yet it is the linchpin of the entire testimony to a "beyond a >: reasonable doubt" standard of proof. >You've already been corrected on this one, so I'm not even going to >bother. It' sbeen stated so often that it depends on the amounts used -- >you'd think a big scientific expert like you would know that by know. But what in fact you are correcting is an eyewitness. And you are further admitting that science is superior to eyewitness claims. And thus claims that are contrary to science can be rejected. >ANd your sentence was still vague, Mr. Giwer. Your English is not improving. Nor your reading but at least you are learning. >: >: > If one witness happens to correctly define truth, then other witnesses >: >: > who state the same thing are probably defining truth. But this is a >: >: > tautology and gets us nowhere. >: >: Truth can not be defined, only recited. >: >: > If one witness states a claim and there is no other evidence one way or >: >: > another about the claim, from a scientific point of view we don't know >: >: > very much. If one witness states a claim and many other witnesses >: >: > independently state the same claim then as scientists we can begin to >: >: > triangulate from this. >: >: You know nothing about science so please stop pretending to >: >: knowledge of it. >: >: You are complelely ignorant of any science past high school and >: >: you know it. >: >(Sigh) still doesn't address the accuracy pf his point. A weak ad >: >hominem argument, at best. >: It is a statement of fact. A person with no knowledge of science >: it pretending to refute me, who does have a knowledge of science. >: And he also confirms that his knowledge is ZERO as you did not >: edit out below. And thus I have only repeated what he has said. >And I repeat: still doesn't address the accuracy of his point. A weak ad >hominem argument at best. Then you are agreeing that someone who knows nothing about your favorite holocaust can speak as an authority upon it. Or is such knowledge only required where you say it is required? Why do the requirements change only toward your position? >: >: >>>> But then you have no scientific training and as such you have no >: >: >>>>basis from which to speak. >: >: >> >: >: >>> I have no knowledge of what Mr. Litt's vita consists of. Might you >: >: >>> tell us all, Mr. Giwer, precisely what is Mr. Litt's background? Oh, >: >: >>> you don't know? If that is the case Mr. Giwer, you are lying. >: >: >> >: >: >> But we know that your background is ZERO in science as are all >: >: >>the gang of six and yours. >: >: > My background in the physical sciences is ZERO. >: This is below. >: >: You did not have to repeat what was obvious. >: >: I took one biology and >: >: > one physics class in high school. I have never taken a chemistry >: >: > class. (You will note I never engage in the Zyklon debates). My >: >: > social science methods training consists of at least a dozen graduate >: >: > level courses in quantitative and qualitative methods. These courses >: >: > have been taken in sociology, urban studies, psychology, organizational >: >: > behavior, education, information systems, and architecture. (I have a >: >: > fairly broad background.) You will note that there is no >: >: > historiography among those classes, however, my undergraduate degree is >: >: > in history. >: >: And from all of this pretention to education you should have >: >: learned the common beliefs of demographic groups. Such as the >: >: eternal truths that whites invented AIDS to exterminate Blacks >: >: and Nazis invented gas chambers to exteriminate Jews. >: >Well, Mr. Giwer, he never made the former claim. >: Nor did I say he made such an assertion. I was merely pointing >: out the irrational beliefs that exist within demographic groups. >If he didn't say it, why do you find it OK to attribute it yo what he >should know? Such clarity. Want to try that again? >: And as to the latter, >: >he has a social science background and is qualified to examine the >: >sociologicl aspects of the Holocaust. >: It is good to read you agree he is not qualified to examime the >: physical science aspects of the holocaust. >: What are your qualifications to do >: >so, given how important you consider training? >: I have not claimed to do so else you would have read many >: sociometric studies referenced in my posts and you have read of >: none. >: So what is the point of your question? >You've constantly referred to sociological patterns, including that great >discussion of the Jews' reaction to Hitler. Now that you've admitted you >know nothing about it, I guess we can all see where your discussion came >from. Isn't this what you referred to above as an ad hominem attack? Now you are back to requiring knowledge here where you do not require any knowledge of science to speak upon it. What changed? >: >: > I can't speak one way or another about the methods training of the >: >: > contributers to Nizkor. >: >: > Again, what did you say about your background? >: >: BS, Physics, 1967, U of Cincinnati, 18 years with NAVSHIPS/NAVSEA >: >: in R&D Management. You may follow this with MAR, D. Gordon >: >: Interional, and AICON. >: >Gee, I thought your work was in computers.....Or did you, during your >: >time in R&D MANAGEMENT, actually work in chemical enginerring. All >: >scientific experience is not the same. What was it you actually did? >: After teaching myself to program in 1967, a Charles Clark (his >: father was head of NTT before it was given back to the Japanese) >: went around saying "he know computers" and he made my reputation >: although at the time it was grossly undeserved. Over the years, >: when a computer related project came along, I was first in line >: for it and usually got it. >: In the process, and as the man with the pursestrings, the real >: pros in the field educated me at every opportunity. They did a >: great job. Lots of PhDs and lesser degreed practical field types >: were involved. It is just a matter of learning from the pros and >: certainly I collected more lecture hours over the years in the >: important stuff than the average CS type. >: BTW: In the above list I left out Softech. You are familiar >: with them are you not? >: And as to the "scientific experience" issue you would know, if >: you had any, that principles are across the board. The widely >: quoted Popper is not specific to any field of science and in fact >: is so broad that what was originally intended to address the hard >: sciences is so broad that creationists use him to attack >: evolution. >: In the hard sciences the criteria is always the same. They do >: not apply to the many misnamed sciences such as computer science >: and self proclaimed soft sciences such as social science and >: medical science. >Sorry, Mr. Giwer, you just struck out a big whiff. Your knowledge is all >computer PROGRAMMING? SO in other words, beyond that old degree, you've >got no experince in "hard science" at all. So then by your own >statements, you're not qualified to talk about the chemical issues. >(or to talk to Rich Green about any of this). Actually programming is a rather minor talent. Ocean acoustics and piezoelectric ceramics, primarily PZT-4, are my major areas of expertise. I was into non-linear acoustics and oceanography many years ago but have forgotten most of that. As for Green I am at least honest about it. But he uses his claimed credentials to imply that bones do not burn and that HCN is not a burn product of coke. All you are doing in saying I was wrong about those claims is being taken in by his game playing. Most people would consider his game playing unethical. >In other words, you are what you appeared to be. An ignorant old troll. Rather than deal with the issues you indulge in what you have already described as an ad hominem attack. Is there something you are missing about what you are doing? >: >(And oooooooh. A 30-year old Bacjelor's in physics. I guess that makes >: >you an expert in physics.) >: That I have never claimed. I have at most claimed to have not >: forgotten the basics. >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could you know? (Insert ad hominem reference to you ignorance of science.) >: >: >> So >: >what is your point? >: >: > My point above is that you asserted Mr. Litt has no scientific >: >: > training. >: >: Excuse me. I did not realize you were speaking for him in the >: >: presumption that he is unable to speak for himself. And just >: >: what do you think your soft science credentials inserted in place >: >: of his lack of real ones have to do with this discussion? >: >: I asserted that you are blowing hot air out your ass as you >: >: > have no knowledge what Mr. Litt's background is. >: >: I have knowledge based upon his postings as you would know had >: >: you education in a real science. You folks ignorant of real >: >: science truly do not have a clue. >: >: As you have not since >: >: > offered any information about Mr. Litt's background I continue to >: >: > assert you are blowing hot air out your ass - and now I will assert >: >: > that the air smells foul. >: >: You may read his mind and do a second hand defense to your >: >: heart's content but that does not make him the least bit more >: >: credible or knowledgeable than he was before you spoke up. >: >: But I am certain he is grateful for you defense of his scientific >: >: ignorance. He is obviously unable to defend himself without your >: >: help. >: >Well, here's where I jump in. I have never, and never will, assert a >: >training in science. I have not stated wither way to this point, so Mr. >: >Giwer is blowing smoke abut any previous knowledge. He is right that i >: >have no scientific traing, although I personally don't consider a (nyuk >: >nyuk nyuk) 30-year-old Bachelor's degree to be any great shakes in the >: >training department. >: Excuse me, but just what would you consider 60 hours on the job >: experience for 20+ years in addition to that 30 year old degree >: to be? >Enough to enable you to make a Website. No hard science at all. No >knowledge at all. >What did you think I thought it was? What would you suggest was the result of having tech cog on the AN/SQS-53C? That's the sonar on the bow of the Arleigh Burke class. They were running around $60 million a copy when I left the project. Connect to your favorite search engine and look for the ships of the Burke class. And of course HTML is not much of an accomplishment. It only took about a month to get the first version up. >: >I'll state it here and now: >: >Bachelor's in Political Science >: >Juris Doctor >: >LL.M. (current program) in International Legal Studies. >: Let me add political sciense to the self proclaimed non-science >: list. >Never said it was, but they don't have "Internaytinal Relaitons" at Michigan. >: And in regard to the previous, regardless of the year of your LLD >: you would hold that it is as dated as it seems and that all of >: the intervening years of experience have detracted from your LLD. >What the hell is an LL.D.? There's never been any such degree. Even >before it became the J.D., the basic law degree was an LL.B. Do you mean >that, or the LL.M.? And no -- years of *relevant* experience don't detract. You have no degree at all? I was under the impression you did. I can see why you did not bother. >: >My areas of experience are in (gasp) Public International Law and >: >Immigration Law. >: >Perhaps this is why I also stayed out of the Chemistry debates, something >: >Mr. Giwer should have also done, given his "experience." I note that his >: >ignorance never kept out of debates about international law or >: >immigration law, despite his complete ignorance on the subject. >: Does this mean that >: a) You were the person who was going to post the US immigration >: law that mentioned Jews as excludable? >Nope. And I'm not repeating this again. The *law* did not do so. The >quotas set during those years did so. Congress did not need to amend the >immigration laws to keep Jews out. I know that this is hard for you, >even after 4 repetitions, so try this time to get it straight. Then you agree they were not anti-semitic. It took you a hell of a long time to get around to admitting that. >: or >: b) You are the person who remained silent when the claim was >: made? >No, I've tried 4 times to explain it to you, but apparently I'm using >words that are too big, once again. Then you would now hold they continue to anti-semitic and in fact always have been. Some one as intellectually deceitful as yourself could add a lot to the creationist arguments. You could probably turn over a rock and find both creation and anti-semitism. (BTW: That is a free straight line. You folks appear to be running of juvenile ridicule lines.) >: or >: c) Your degree is so old that your work experience does not >: count? >My degree? You mean the one I'm currently earning? May I ask the field? >: >I asserted Mr. Giwer's response to evidence -- something i konw about >: >from only the legal standpoint. I know the legal/proof value of >: >eyewitness testimony, and the problems inherent therein. >: > I cannot partake of the chemical debate >: >-- but I can see Mr. Giwer's transparent tactics when confronted with >: >evidence not in his favor. >: You may "see" but you will not demonstrate it, only assert it. >Wrong again. Boy, you just love pretending ignorance. Sheesh. Then point them out if they are so obvious. Or is this taking away from your study time? >: >: > My point might be extended to say that you asserted knowledge of my >: >: > background without having any information. (You can claim victory in >: >: > guessing I know little about the physical sciences - in a manner you >: >: > are want to do when you are cornered - but it will be a hollow >: >: > victory.) >: >: You need to learn something about the real sciences. Everything >: >: that is posted is telegraphed. It reads like science or it does >: >: not. There is no middle ground. It is not like you soft science >: >: types wish it were. >: >: >>>>>(2)An insistence on being right in the face of contrary evidence; >: >: >>>> >: >: >>>> Eyewitnesses are not evidence as any scientist knows. >: >: >> >: >: >>> Well, Mr. Giwer, two paragraphs above you say it is unreliable >: >: >>> evidence. >: >: >> >: >: >> Not unreliable, rather worthless. >: >: > Actually, no. One eyewitness is rather worthless. Many eyewitnesses >: >: > can be triangulated to learn valuable information. That is, the >: >: > reliability is improved when many independent measures are taken. >: >: > (Even a PHYSICAL scientist should be able to understand that!) >: >: Eyewitnesses that contradict each other and physical science HAS >: >: HAVE BEEN POSTED HERE AS "PROOF" of things that have no physical >: >: evidence. >: >What Mr. GIwer hasn't figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to >: >have 100% accuracy. That's not humanly possible, except perhaps in a >: >Heinlein novel. The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness >: >is substantially accurate. If the witnesses are so distorted as to call >: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there's a >: >problem. But often a witness who can't remember whatcolor socks a robber >: >was wearing isn't then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect >: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse. >: The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of >: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat >: the 'engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes' story that is sworn to by >: OBC here. Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities >: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest >: skeptical response. >(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already >posted the "answer." That the eyewitness was lying of course. >: It is not a question of being 100% correct. It is a matter of >: being 100% false. >Yup. I can state with full certainty that you are 100% false. That was another clever one. You college kids are amazing. >: >: But even you should understand that were such things admitted as >: >: proof then in fact there are "greys" abducting and impregnating >: >: woman on their flying saucers. >: >: You can not have it both ways. If testimony is proof of one >: >: thing then it is proof of another. If "all agreeing" confirms >: >: the testimony then UFO abductions are confirmed. >: >: There is no middle ground in you position. If you believe this >: >: gassing then you support UFO abductions on exactly the same >: >: grounds. >: >Faulty argument. The issue of eyewitness testimony is a lot more comlex >: >than that. Eyewtiness testimony is obviously of some value. >: But so is the cross examination and the testimony for the defense >: which is never presented nor is full trial information. It is >: always presented as though the "witness" is testifying against >: himself with the presumption of a conviction. >Since the outcome is known, there is a presumption of a conviction -- >because they were convicted, grandpa. Senility kicking in again? Since you are such an expert in these matters, what was Hoess of Auschwitz fame convicted of? what was he acquitted of? Why did Rodenko put him on trial twice? And explain how the acquittal was possible given the book he wrote while you are at it. >: Now, the >: >more there is of such testmony which is not in substantial disagreement >: >(e.g., one says "blue socks," one says "green socks" is not *substantial* >: >disagreement) -- the more the evidence gains weight. Physical evidence >: >to back it up is even more useful in adding to the weight. >: But that is not what they testify to. They in fact testify to >: the impossible. >Only if a troll like you distorts their testimony or fun. Even when we know they lied in their testimony? >: >But it's all a question of degree. Testimony is not *automatically* >: >proof -- but a lot of testimony, in substantial agreement, is lot a lot >: >more weighty in terms of proof. Does this ever fail? Of course -- >: >because a lot of other factors are invlved. But does this mean testimony >: >cannot be prof? Of course not. >: Although it is not in agreement with itself, it is also contrary >: to physical law. Only according to a computer programmer with senility >problems and a hatred of Jews. >: >Mr. Giwer takes complex issues which have been studied for much longer >: >than he's been around, and tries to reduce them to 2-sentence sound bites. >: Sorry but saying they all died in 15-20 minutes from engine >: exhaust is exactly the same as saying the SS turned off the >: gravity and they all flew off into space. That you do not >: understand that is your problem. >: After all, the only person who knew anything about DNA was thrown >: off of the OJ jury. Lawyers do fear people who have an >: acquaintance with science. >Boy, you just LOOOVVVVEEEE generalizations, don't you? YOu'd be >helpless without them. Actually it is quite factual as science speaks louder than arguement. People who will rely upon science are not susceptable to "might haves" that are contrary to it. >: >: >>> That would make it evidence, would it not? Whether or not >: >: >>> you agree with me, you assertion just above is incorrect. Eyewitness >: >: >>> evidence (aka observation) is surely a method of gathering scientific >: >: >>> knowledge. Would you like cites from methods textbooks? Would you >: >: >>> like a cite for a research note I have had published which discusses >: >: >>> triangulating among three forms of observation in order to maximize >: >: >>> reliability? (The content of the research note is wholely unrelated to >: >: >>> the Holocaust, but it does discuss the use of observation as a way of >: >: >>> gathering scientific knowledge.) >: >: >> >: >: >> When testimony is contrary to known science it is bullshit, lies, >: >: >>nonsense, and whatever the hell appelation can be put upon it. >: >: > Agreed (in a way). If the physical evidence and the testimonial >: >: > evidence are contradictory, I would tend to lean towards the physical >: >: > evidence. (Which is one reason Johnny Cochran would never have me on a >: >: > jury :>) There are many examples with the Holocaust where the >: >: > testimony of survivors is discounted either because it is contidictory >: >: > with what many other witnesses have to say or because it is physically >: >: > impossible. Even so, that testimony can be helpful in painting a >: >: > general picture of events, even if it connot be used to pin down >: >: > details. >: >: Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which >: >: there is none. >: >Nope. Wrong again. We've said it before -- if you can find any law >: >which doesn't allow testimony sans physical evidence, please let us know. >: At least for the federal level, the rules of evidence were posted >: here. They are as I have said. I have always stipulated that >: there were exceptional cases which permitted testimony in the >: absense of evidence when there was an adequate jusitifcation for >: the absense of evidence presented. >WHAT??!!! Man, your ability to lie is amazing. The FRE said nothing of >the sort. Perhaps you should read it again. >: >: >> On the other hand, you have no concept of science, you are >: >: >>clearly making it up as you go along, and as I have posted my >: >: >>credentials you are certainly invited to post yours. >: >: > Sorry, I missed your credentials. Please post again. Mine are above. >: >: Already done. You are at best a soft science type and you know >: >: that samplying beliefs has nothing to do with the truth. >: >: >> You are a lying little shit and you know it. You know testimony >: >: >>is not evidence. >: >And you aren't a lawyer, and you don't have any knowledge of evidentiary >: >matters (And you know nothing about immigration or Constitutions, for >: >that matter). YOu're at best a know-nothing troll who takes a minimal >: >knowledge of chemistry and attempts to spawn as many arguments as possible. >: Excuse me but if you are an attorney as you appear to claim AND >: are familiar with the case at hand as you appear to claim, then >: you are aware of the federal rules of evidence that were posted >: here. >I'm familiar with the FRE, although I haven't seen them posted here. >I'm also familiar with your tendency to claim documents that disagree >with you actually agree with you. So why not share that mystical section >of the FRE with us? It is the part that says the prosecution can not simply announce that a gun is the murder weapon used by the accused but rather must establish a chain of evidence from it actually being the murder weapon up through the defendent actually using it. Preferably, of course, having a corpse in the first place. >: And of course you, as a fully qualified expert on immigration >: law, have failed to post the anti-semitic immigration laws you >: are now supporting. >Repeat, repeat, repeat,.................... Now that you have either agreed they either were not or are now you can make any claim you wish. >: Failing to post them yet continuing to imply they in fact existed >: is certainly enough to bring your claim of being a practicing >: immigration attorney into question. But then, of course, that is >: NOT what you claimed, is it? Therefore you have maintained >: plausible deniability without ever making a direct claim. >(sigh) You just can't speak English, can you? >IT WASN'T THE LAW, IT WAS THE QUOTAS USED DURING THOSE YEARS. The quotas were by nation or region, not be religion. And the quotas were set by law of course. Or were quotas established independent of law in those days? >: Do you really think a few debating experiences puts you up to >: what you have to do here? >Deal with a troll who hasn't figured out how to post evidence for any of >his allegaitons? Most definitely. A college student with minimal real world experience, no background in science, and who discovered this form of debate upon entering college really thinks he knows what he is doing. Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in juvenile ridicule and such. And now, after having realized that you have repeated something you were told as a child, that the US immigration laws were anti-semitic, rather than simply acknowledge that to have been a false belief or simply dropping it (which is the desirable approach,) you keep coming back trying to establish your belief in the face of knowledge. That is like a creationist faced with certain knowledge that the stories he has believed about such things as Noah's Ark are clearly impossible. >: >: > You also have no evidence I am little ;> (How testimony is evidence is >: >: > explained above. I invite anyone else who is reading this and actually >: >: > has methods training to comment.) >: >: With your purported education it is unclear how you can believe >: >: polls and witnesses. >: >I know how and when I can believe witnesses -- what is it in your >: >Bachelor's in Science that enables you to do so? >: Back up. It is your lack of polling data that is the subject of >: this point. Would you care to address it? >No, since you said polls *and* witnesses, and I haven;t seen anything >that combines the two. And under your definition of "and," that's what >you meant. Fine. Where are both? I was giving you a shot at taking them one at a time. You are assuming an even greater burden and still failing to provide anything. >: >: >>>>>(4)A feeling that the world is "wrong" for not believing him. >: >: >>>> >: >: >>>> I have not asked people to believe what I have said. I have >: >: >>>>challenged the claims of the holohuggers and they have demanded >: >: >>>>that a negative be proven, something any scientist laughs at. >: >: >> >: >: >>> Well, the "holohuggers" as you call them are putting forth the null >: >: >>> hypothesis about the Holocaust. That is, they are presenting here >: >: >>> information about the Holocaust the (notice my use of caps, I am >: >: >>> shouting at you to get your attention) EVERY SINGLE ACCREDITED >: >: >>> HISTORIAN [1] IN THE WORLD IS IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH [2]. Given this, >: >: >>> it seems to me that there is no need to defend this null hypothesis; >: >: >>> the burden of proof is on an individual who attempts to put forward an >: >: >>> alternative hypothesis. >: >: >> >: >: >>> If anyone disagrees with me on this, I'd be happy to hear you state >: >: >>> your case. >: >: > I note Giwer's silence. >: >: State your case and I discuss your case. >: >ANd that's where you get into trouble, el Giwero. "State your case" -- >: >the plaintiff asserting the alteration to the existing regiment is the >: >one who has the burden to state a case. There is such a thing as Prima >: >Facie evidence, but the plaintiff at least has to make such a showing. >: As a self proclaimed attorney you are fully aware that the >: prosecution bears the complete burden of proof. >As a complete buffoon on the subject of law, you are apparently aware that: >(1)In a criminal case, the plaintiff is the Prosecution. > but in a civil case, there's no prosecution. Since this involves claims of gassing it is a criminal case with not only the burden of proof but beyond a reasonable doubt. >(2)The defendat, even in criminal cases, bears the burden of proof on certain > issues. In a civil case, much more so. Then all defendents MUST present witnesses on their behalf in your world? >: >This is why it's possible for the defendant to rest without making a >: >case, or to move for summary judgment. ANd what happens then, if the >: >defendant prevails in such a manner? -- why, the status quo is still >: >where it was -- because the one asserting the change has the burden. >: >While I realize that as a troll, your modus operandi is merely reactive, >: >to get anywhere in the world of Holocaust Denial, you would eventually >: >have to make a claim of your own. >: What you need to realize is that the even the pale follow-ons to >: WW II war time propaganda about mass murders bears the burden of >: proof. You folks have never made a credible case. It was always >: the "gassing of the gaps" in that any place there is conclusively >: no evidence of gassing it has always been moved to places where >: there is not such conclusive evidence. >: Now the conclusive evidence is both at A-B and Dachau where it >: was conclusively shown it never happened. But then it is >: perhaps just my personal problem that I can not deal with both >: there were and there were not gas chambers in Germany and >: attempt to keep a conversation going. >: >Or perhaps you can't dealwith addressing the evidence as it exists, >instead of as it exists in your mind. It has been presented here with all of the "what else could it mean?" fallacious arguments from ignorance. It is like the "I can't think of another explanation for the world so there has to have been intelligent design" fallacies of the creationists. >: >: >>>> In any event you are >ignorant of any : >science and you >: >have no : >>>>business pretending you know anything about any science. >: >: >> >: >: >>> And you assert your lack of ignorance because...? (include your pubs, >: >: >>> please) >: >: > I note Giwer's silence. >: >: And yours are? >: >NOt an answer --we're not asserting any study in science -- YOU are. >: >I've stated, and Mr. Mittelman has stated, that we have no scientific >: >training -- so why would we have pubs? Mr. Green, on the other hand -- >: >now there's someone to compare pubs with, given how often you've blasted >: >his knowledge. >: I know you folks have made your statements yet you both post as >: though you had such training or experience when you clearly do >: not. It does not take the proverbial rocket scientist to read >: your posts and realize you are offering opinions out of complete >: ignorance of science. >: >And I would like to see a list of anything you've done in the areas of >: >immigration, international, consitutional, or Israeli law. >: I will be interesting in reading your post of a single US law >: that addresses Jews. Absent that, you are lying. >Or you're just ignoring what I've now said 5 times. >: >"Constitution in Israel" -- BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!!!!!!! >: Quacks like but it is not. I love it. >Tell me again, oh Mr. law expert. My Israeli friends LOVE that one. >Tell me some more. You have never heard about ducks? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:27 PDT 1996 Article: 35494 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Israeli State Terrorism (Lessons of the Holocaust) Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:41:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4m9vst$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m8jmf$m9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 4:39:41 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >J. McCarthy wrote: >> Not to mention that interminable series of subordinate clauses and >> prepositional phrases! Sheesh! "to...that...which...to...who...of..." >dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote: >> I try not to get concerned with people's grammar, it's petty and time >> wasting. Of course, that can be useful sometimes I suppose. >I was just trying to inject a little levity... Another antisemite, introducing Levites into the discussion. After all, even the truth can be anti-semitic. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:28 PDT 1996 Article: 35506 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:09:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4m4aom$54p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lop9n$q26@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4ls7sg$qb1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m3lat$pql@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Apr 30 1:08:22 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>># I have not read any of Zundel's material nor do I have any >>># interest in doing so. But there needs be some perspective upon >>># the mentions here. >>>[Rest deleted - conists of Giwer defending Zundel and claiming >>> that his "UFO theories" are not really that goofy] >> I have only said they were at one time common. I have also said >>that those who accept eyewitness testimony in the absense of >>physical evidence will believe anything. >Where, what and who is doing this? Head to a used book store and hope for FATE magazine from the 50s. It was the best chronicaler of what was going on at the time. You might also look for UFO related paperbacks from the same time frame. Or are you referencing me being they only person to harp upon the sworn truth of OBC that engine exhaust and cyanide are effectively equally deadly? None of the true believers commented upon it. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:28 PDT 1996 Article: 35521 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies) Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 02:25:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 276 Message-ID: <4mh3n1$lof@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <316a61e7.2309376@news.pacificnet.net> <4klqbv$lua@informer1.cis.mcmaster.ca> <4kmv1t$bli@atlas.uniserve.com> <4kp5eh$1340@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4kpl61$k9i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4llsb6$1he@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4lon7m$ra@news.nyu.edu> <4mc9pi$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mejf1$slv@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 9:27:45 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: >: du> <4l4u1c$1vdo@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> >: >: >: >: >: >: <4l6b7d$bmh@wi.combase.com> >: >: >: >: >: >: <4l9aej$t2i@wi.combase.com> Distribution: >: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@combase.com) wrote: >: >: >: >: Lets see. There were enthusiastic crowds when Hitler drove through >: >: >: the streets after annexation. Therefore Austrians enthusiastically >: >: >: embraced annexation. >: >: >: >: There was an enthusiastic crowd in Tampa to greet Clinton on his last >: >: >: visit. Therefore Tampa enthusiastically embraced Clinton. >: >: >: >: It would be an awfully incompetent political party that could not turn >: >: >: out an enthusiastic crowd. >: >: >: >: However, I do find it extremely common that people will assume that >: >: >: such crowds are spontanious. When Pres. Eisenhower wanted one he >: >: >: would let civilians servants go home early if they showed up as a >: >: >: cheering crowd first. >: >: >: >: Of course, that is revisionism. Austrian crowds were different from >: >: >: all other political crowds in the world. I understand the dogma. >: >: >: >Mr. Giwer is employing Denier Technique #7,218: Don't actually say >: >: >anything which refutes the point (here, that Austria embraced Hitler >: >: >enthusiastically). Instead, just point out why the evidence presented >: >: >doesn't meet your personal standards. Provide no evidence for this, >: >: >either, other than your opinion of what's logical. >: >: >: Some day you should publish a complete list of the techniques. >: >: It will be interesting to see how agreement with the premise of >: >: those crowds being different can constitute denying anything. >: >: But let me remark that I find you "standard of proof" rather in >: >: line with the common assumption that all crowds are spontaneous. >: >: >Not even necessary -- I never assumed all crowds were spontaneous, and if >: >you can find anywhere I said that, I'll send you 10 bucks. >: >: The lack of an explicite statement hardly negates the presumption >: in your posts. >Chicken. Just like I thought. You like to make accusations, but you >can't back them up, so you turn tail and run. Bawk. Do you not realize how old hat this "betting" thing is on the nets? >: >Are crowds evidence of enthusiasm? I would say yes. >: >: Right! And the usual trick for that was to have the cafes along >: the route pouring freely. It was not invented in Austria. >Source, please? The earliest reference I have come across to it was Chicago machine politics from the 20s but then it was speakeasies. You have never heard of using alcohol for politics? They even cheer louder. >: Do they prove >: >EVERYONE is enthusiastic? of course not. But your counter-example is >: >interesting -- if crowds of cheering people lined the streets for >: >Clinton's visit to Tampa, I would say "Tampa greeted Clinton >: >enthusiastically." >: >: Then you would be knowingly lying as you would more properly be >: saying that in the small part of the streets you saw on camera >: that you saw a staged political rally as they all are. Even >: honest journalists would only photograph the action. >well, I was in DC for the inauguration (I lived there at the time) and by >golly, there was a huge outpouring of enthusiasm. And you know what? No >free anything at the inauguration route. You had to go to the parties >later for food and such, and those weren't free. In inaugrations, as you are attempting to confuse this with, they were the party activists that came to be invited to the celebration and paid to cover the cost of the celebration. Or did you show up to cheer? I lived there for 25 years. I never did know a local who showed up to cheer. Were you the exception I should have known? >: >More to the point, nothing you have said disproves Austria greeting >: >Hitler enthusiastically. You've given some half-assed, unsupported >: >assertions about Eisenhower, and somehow in your mind that's enough. >: >: Now I am supposed to prove a negative? Very creationist of you. >It's creationist to want proof of an assertion? How anti-standards of >you. This explains why you never provide support for anything you say. >YOu asserted it, but now you can't prove it. Bawk. You will note your words are "disproves Austria" etc. How am I supposed to disprove? Am I to take you literally and note that only Austrians can greet? You appear to have a serious cognitive problem. But now that we are down to only people can greet then we also accept that not all of Austria was lining the streets. (Of course you can demand I prove they were not.) After we are down to some then we know there were many members of the Nazi Party in Austria so we have a ready made crowd. If they needed more you simply give them something in return just like party workers drive people to polling booths today and swing by a MacDonalds or some such to "obligate" them to the party of the driver. Are you really as naive as you sound or was there some point to your pretending? >: >: >: >> >In fact, he uses the parallel examples of >: >"ordinary >: >: >: >> >citizens'" complicity in other atrocities--in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, >: >: >: >> >Armenia, etc.--as part of his argument that "ordinary Germans" were >: >: >: >> >similarly complicit in the Holocaust. >: >: >: >> >: >: >: >> I can see it all now, millions of armed Germans hunting them down and >: >: >: >> killing them. When you read it did you not notice the absurdity of >: >: >: >> this comparison? >: >: >: >: >Hundreds of thousands, actually--although in Germany, millions stood >: >: >: >silently by and let it happen. >: >: >: >: So you are in the "everyone but the Jews and the homosexuals and the >: >: >: slavs and the gypsies etc. knew what was happening" camp. Very good. >: >: >: I will try to remember that. >: >: >: >Ooooh, he's a "Neo-Nizkorite" or whatever it was he called someone. He's >: >: >keeping a "mental file" -- the difference between him and Nizkor is that >: >: >Nizkor keeps the actual statements, so as to be accurate. >: >: >: But to be used selectively and out of context of an exchange with >: >: the intent to deceive. >: >: >Nope. You've got no proof of that, because it didn't happen. Someday >: >you'll realize that demanding proof of the holocaust while providing no >: >evidence of anything you say makes you look like an *sshole. >: >: Some day you will learn that a proof of negative is very >: creationist. >How odd -- Matt Giwerhas a new epithet of the day when he's doging backing >up his statements -- "creationist." Mr. Giwer, if you have no support for >your assertions, positive or negative, then you're just blowing smoke. >Troll. I clearly have the eyewitness testimony contrary to each other and physical law as evidence. That you folks believe so strongly that you explain it all away, much as a creationist explains away the impossibilities of the Flood and as convincingly, is only convincing to your fellow believers. Witness the "explanation" that diesel engine exhaust looks white. And I have yet to dump on the boy that steam is invisible after it expands. Yet he BELIEVES it. > : >: >: Here's the passage from Goldhagen : >: >: >I was thinking >of: : >: >: >: >"No reason exists to believe that modern, western, even Christian man is >: >: >: >incapable of holding notions which devalue human life, which call for its >: >: >: >extinction, notions held by [other] peoples. . . throughout history. . . . >: >: >: >Who doubts that the Argentine or Chilean murderes of >: >: >: >people who opposed the recent authoritarian regimes thought that their >: >: >: >victims deserved to die? Who doubts that the Tutsis who slaughtered >: >: >: >Hutus in Burundi or the Hutus who slaughtered Tutsis in Rwanda, that one >: >: >: >Lebanese militia which slaughtered the civilian supporters of another, >: >: >: >that the Serbs who have killed Croats or Bosnian Muslims, did so out of >: >: >: >conviction in the justice of their actions? Why do we not believe the >: >: >: >same for the German perpetrators?" (pp. 14-15). >: >: >: >: >Goldhagen invokes these other examples to point out that those mass >: >: >: >murders were ideologically motivated, and to foreground his examination >: >: >: >of the ideology that led Germans to support the Nazi government's actions >: >: >: >against Jews. He is particularly critical of the idea that German >: >: >: >soldiers and other participants in the killings of Jewish civilians >: >: >: >needed to be persuaded or compelled to participate. >: >: >: >: So by mixing metaphors of actions of governments and of people he is >: >: >: able to indicted 50,000,000 people. It is not a very subtle >: >: >: propaganda technique. I would have expected you to notice it. >: >: >: >Actually, I would have expected that you read the book before you >: >: >pronounce your decision of Goldhagen's methods. Do you alweays decide >: >: >before seeing any actual facts? >: >: >: If facts about the book are not being posted here, what is the >: >: point to the discussion? >: >: >Given that minute fragments of a long book have been posted here, I ask >: >again: Do you always decide before seeing any actual facts? >: >: I have only commented upon what has been posted here, not upon >: the book as a whole. As you know that is true, what is the point >: of your question? >WHoops, it's the Matt Giwer "opposite time" again. Of course I don't >"know" that is true, because it isn't. You've commented on parts from >all over the whole damn >book, and you haven't read anything in it. >That's called "distortion" and "intellectual dishonesty," words I think >must be on your family crest. That things from all over the book were posted here and that I commented upon them is true. It is also true that those same things were defended by people who had not read the book. When was the rule passed that only one side had to read the book before commenting? >: >: >: 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. >: >: >: >: What kind of truth is it that needs protection? >: >: >: >What kind of idiot summarizes a book's methodolgy without even reading it? >: >: >: You need to learn what summarizing methodology means before you >: >: start talking about someone doing it. If you knew what that >: >: meant you would know I have not. If you had been following the >: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the >: >: book does not contain the methodology. >: >: >The book does not contain "the" methodology? Interesting accusation. >: >: Go back and read. >I did. Try again, with feeling this time. With feeling this time. >: If you had been following the >: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the >: >: book does not contain the methodology. >: >: Notice "ANOTHER PERSON" in the statement? Another person made >: the accusation, not me. >Aha! The newest Giwer technique: "someone else said it, not me." >We're still waiting on about 3 other places where you've made this >allegation. Correcting the false statements of holohuggers is a very old technique of mine. >: >Sometime you will have to explain what "the" methodology is. >: >But given that you have not read the book, you have no basis upon which >: >to summarize its methodology. which makes you a troll just starved for >: >attention. >: >: When you learn to read what you responding to, get back to me. >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >MAn, you still haven't figured out what's happened, have you? Quite a schoolboy response. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:30 PDT 1996 Article: 35522 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: A little Q&A on the holocaust Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 10:11:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 398 Message-ID: <4mps6o$2b6@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:14:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 What was the holocaust? First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million people went into concentration and work camps and about a million emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared. Second there are stories about the holocaust. And this is where the problem lies. The stories, although oft repeated, have not been critically reviewed. The question is, why would people lie about what happened to them? There are many likely answers to that question. o Motivation Plain and simple revenge against the people who had imprisoned them for years and treated them in an absolutely shameful manner. o Mistaken In any prison rumor is the fastest moving and most erroneious thing there is. The repetition of common camp rumors as the truth is certainly to have been expected. o Physical condition Although there is question as to the physical conditions in the camps, were they in fact as bad as told then these people were on the point of starvation and that common induces pyschosis particularly if it has been long term. Certainly there are other possible explanations for false information to have been generated but these three are sufficient to indicate there is a clear need for physical evidence for these statements to support. This testimony can not be accepted as true without physical evidence. What was the plan for the Holocaust? Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it discusses two plans, before and after the conference. The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note. The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be moved out of Europe. The is referred to as "to the east" and by the curious word "emigrated" in the common translation. No death camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe, certainly a violation of human rights but that is it. After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister. The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a deliberate plan to kill people introduced by this means only. In between the description of these two plans there is what appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan. But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65 to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I. The conclusion of course is that although this document is often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned to exterminate the Jews, it is clearly nothing of the kind. That plan in even the worst case interpretation was developed in late 1941. What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust? Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the information we have comes from witnesses. Unfortunately these witnesses are not particularly credible in that the tell stories that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best. Additionally the most common witness testimony used to support these stories is only from the prosecution without indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases. One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as turning off the gravity. What is the physical evidence for the holocaust? Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work camps and that very few survived. But what little physical evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being force fit into a preconceived conclusion. For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that had to have occurred to satisfy the 12 million body count and the reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the effort is to find features of a morgue converted into a gas chamber to perform this function. This effort has problems right from the start. First we note that it is partially underground and that the walls above ground are bermed, banked with earth. We also note that it is steel reinforced, flat concrete roof. Yet in the same compound there are two other buildings without the construction. They use simple peaked roofs which are cheaper to construct. Although the partially underground construction can be explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas chamber. Other possible design features include an air-tight door (found 200 feet away), a ventilation system, and either two or four small holes in the roof. The second two are potential in that there exists at the moment exactly one conceptual drawing that is not a blueprint and the blower that drove the ventilation system has not been found so we have only a general idea of its capacity. Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to a gas chamber have always asked, "What else could it be?" when in fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most obvious is a bomb shelter. There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin your whole day. But in addition to structural damage protection there is damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage eardrums. And thus the air-tight door to keep that pressure wave out of the building. Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing creatures. The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know what design features of large scale gas chamber would be. Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the first and only large scale gas chambers in the world. Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial. Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and incorporated such obvious feature that they leap off the page of a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced people. But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual drawing that is an a gas chamber. The clear admission is that they are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want it to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses. And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of another purpose, that of a bomb shelter. Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a morgue in its primary fuction and gained a secondary purpose by the modifications in its construction. Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp. Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed. Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter. * * * * * Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for its lesser number. The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not believe in those methods any longer. Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind. At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony regarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly nor did they have the same release mechanisms. Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them. Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that would have been needed to make them work. For example, the engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron work they are mounted upon the chassis of course. And then where are the batteries to run the starter? And the mounts for the batteries? And the fuel tank and the mounts for the fuel tanks? And then all of this in a specially built building to protect it from the elements. At some point one has to ask why these tanks were not simply backed up to the buildings and used without all of this time consuming and expensive disassembly and reassembly. What we are left with upon even an elementary analysis, meaning I have not gone into all the wiring and gauges and spare parts and the like, we are left with a needlessly complex exercise to claim this was done by tank engines. But there is more to Treblinka than just this. This is the camp of the great burning pits. Ten pits 40 or 50 meters long by 8 meters by 2 or 3 meters deep, stories vary. For those unfamiliar with metric a meter is about 3 1/3 feet. Half a football field long. as wide as the longest dimension of your average two story house and six to ten feet deep. All ten of these pits were used for burning bodies, 2 million bodies in fact. Yet even at only two pounds of bone ash per body and evenly burying it over the 40 acres of Treblinka, there is no sign of the 50 tons of bone ash per acre. That is about 1 lb per square foot and not a sign of it. The evidence for all of this? A claim of having done core samples and having found a few bone fragments, a little bone ash and (inexplicably) human hair after being buried for so many years. That is it. But wait, there is more. Each of these pits was supposed to have a channel that collected the human fat so it could be collected and then poured back over the bodies as fuel for burning them. First ask yourself how you would create an accurate slope over a distance of 150 feet. Second ask yourself why you would bother. If you have ever had any experience with a BBQ you know the problem is keeping the fat from burning. Yet here is clearly a claim of a very serious effort requiring a serious surveying effort to collect fat that would have burning before is ever got to the channel in the middle. And further claims that the fat did not burn the first time around but was required to be reheated and poured in again, but no descriptions of the reheating equipment of course. Further the soil is assumed to have been impervious to fat in that it did not absorb it. The ashes were impervious to fat and did not absorb it. But of course if it did as happens in any BBQ the heat would have evaporated or ignited it. It would not have survived to pool down to one end to be collected. But the eyewitnesses tell this story. It is contrary to not only physical law but common experience. If you have never done the BBQ, take a pan of hot bacon grease and pour it on bare soil and see what happens. Or get a BBQ, fire it up, toss the hamburger into the live coals and see if you have any fat collected in the bottom after it is over. A first order approximation of what is described to have happened is quite easy. So where would these stories be similar in major features? As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would know. "That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if we don't work hard enough or get sick." And why would people tell each other stories like this? I really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost stories around the campfire is such a popular tradtion. I simply know the latter is. But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening features even though they are no more credible than the original stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next embellishes the already embellished previous story. And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the motivation to separate known fact from stories given that sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term starvation and the likliehood of protein deficit psychosis and there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from story. So how could so many die so quickly? Let us turn to "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Soltynitchen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the average life expectancy in them in our post anti-biotic world was seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time. If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the average life expectancy was on the order of four years. Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease. Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported, and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from cholera and dysentary would be at least as bad. Unless the heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards, deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter. Unless food stanards were far better than commonly reported people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a week without rest if they have the least health problems. It is not so much a question of how many died without gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it. If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved? The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish organizations. There is very little impartial secular history on these stories. At this point one can only speculate as to why. The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful. Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening. The "everyone knew" stories are to implicate the average German citizen at the time. The "no one knew" stories are to excuse the behavior of German Jews. But when you look to the believers in the stories of the holocaust, questioning either story and pointing to the consequences of it being true earns the quick response of anti-semite or neo-nazi. As the Jews are clearly the ones preserving these stories, and of course there is a amen corner that makes money off of them for preserving the stories, there is a clearly religious and social nature to them. These stories help define the group identity of Jews. The repetition of these stories has become the same as reading scripture. It is part of a shared identity. The more family one has lost the more Jewish one is. As to the insistance upon gassing, it makes the camps expecte but the gassing unexpected thus a middle ground between a hope for survival and certain doom. Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than reported? Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz, Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz recovering from typhus. And then in retreating from the Russian advance and suffering from typhus she was evacuated to another camp to the west where she died in another infirmary. On one hand we have stories of people being force marched to to the west but in this case we have person who would clearly died from such a march as she was moved from infirmary to infirmary. On one hand we are told that those who were unfit to work and in this case we have hardly more than a child and not a skilled laborer sick with typhus being moved from camp to camp in some form of transportation in what clearly appears to be an effort to save her life. The stories are incongruous. In fact her father survived typhus in another SS infirmary and went on to publish her diary. This is not to claim the SS were nice people but certainly they were not able to select a future famous person for special treatment. Nor am I claiming to know what the conditions in fact were in these camps at all times. I am simply pointing out the diseases that are present in all other circumstances of close living under poor conditions. And the claim is that all that happened in the disease were two major outbreaks of typhus and a few minor ones. This is wholely at odds with what is to be expected under the reported conditions. So what is your interest in all of this? I feel myself involved in the long honored avocation of debunking nonsense. I have done it for years in creationism, religionism, UFOs, Catastrophism, and ritual, satanic child abuse among others. This is the "largest" or most publically challenging I have taken on. In doing so I am using the same I have used on the other subjects. My confrontational approach is the same, my disreguard for personal feelings is the same, my calling them as I see them attitude is the same. And I do note that debunking the foolish beliefs of others is not appreciated when the same methods are applied to one's own cherished beliefs. But the susceptability of such beliefs do not change with either the subject or who holds the belief. Debunking alien abductions and holocaust gassing uses the same methods. The results of the application of those methods are the same.  ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:30 PDT 1996 Article: 35530 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The WWII Hoax Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:37:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4mojj5$ap3@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <31669b42.7032542@news.pacificnet.net> <4lu8il$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3chj$52f@shiva.usa.net> <4m6q4c$ktr@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mlkmg$5la@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 5:41:41 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4m6q4c$ktr@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >> Just wait until I take on WW II and it defenders arise against my >>fierce assualt upon it ever having occurred. > Evidently Mr. Giwer was not reading the newsgroup when the challenge >was issued to present the one or two best pieces of evidence to prove WWII >occurred. Not one person was able to come up with anything that even came >close. Read what I said and compare it to that little challenge. In any event there are already two of us to go after WW II. A little teamwork never hurts. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:31 PDT 1996 Article: 35535 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!news1.io.org!news2.interlog.com!news2.toronto.istar.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 2) Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:18:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <4mp7cq$oul@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mi1nm$ljn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mmv9o$c2b@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mo9d9$432@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:19:38 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35535 soc.history:5148 rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4mmv9o$c2b@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>>Question 4 >>>---------- >> >>> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the >>> production of "HCN" from burning atmospheric nitrogen: >> >>> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete >>> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which >>> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but >>> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN >>> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and >>> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if >>> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one >>> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is >>> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds? >>> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so >>> lets wait for his commentary. >> >>> ... >> >>> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia, >>> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - >>> throw the rest away) >> >>> Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how >>> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it. >>> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and >>> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical >>> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that >>> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides. >>> The part that's really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2 >>> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to >>> explain. >> As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the >>flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the >>Kremas. >EVASION ALERT: Mr. Giwer has not answered the question. Deal with those you deceived. Many people claim to have never believed anything I have posted. They believed what you posted. I suspect they will be feeling differently about you than about me. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:32 PDT 1996 Article: 35544 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:31:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4mp4l4$7sp@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lu8jo$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m02pr$nvg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4m3dbk$a7h@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mbd5i$eag@news.nyu.edu> <4mgu8o$svb@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mipn7$4ec@news.nyu.edu> <318E4BD2.5FA1@nt.com> <4mlkog$bfh@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4mn3im$amc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mocif$r4l@moe.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:32:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >: >That's a true, freedom-loving libertarian position if ever I heard >: >one, Mr. Grynspan, but I'm not at all sure what this had to do with >: >revisionism in the first place--it probably should have been on >: >alt.jew-baiting or something--and it sure as hell isn't on topic >: >now. Take it to alt.totalitarian or something, huh? >: >: Unfortunately for your position, Alec has been respectfully >: referred to as a professional Jew with apologies for any negative >: implications for the phrase on other networks. You really need >: to learn who you are posting to. >Like Grynspan, Giwer assumed I was addressing the phrase "jew-baiting" >at Grynspan. Careful readers will note that the phrase applies to >the original thread. The phrase "totalitarian," however, was a slap >at Mr. Grynspan's odious position on the summary execution of reporters >in war zones. He said no such thing. >Again--I was not calling Alec Grynspan a jew baiter. It's unfortunate >that the art of critical reading has sunk to the point where this >needs to be made explicit, but that's the world we live in. Ah, well... One critical reading right after another. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:33 PDT 1996 Article: 35545 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:30:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4mp4j6$7sp@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lu8jo$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m02pr$nvg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4m3dbk$a7h@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mbd5i$eag@news.nyu.edu> <4mgu8o$svb@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mipn7$4ec@news.nyu.edu> <318E4BD2.5FA1@nt.com> <4mlkog$bfh@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4mn3im$amc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <318FB1B1.4BA9@nt.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:31:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> Unfortunately for your position, Alec has been respectfully >> referred to as a professional Jew with apologies for any negative >> implications for the phrase on other networks. You really need >> to learn who you are posting to. >> >I am hardly a professional Jew! That I leave to Dave Dahlman. For you I said it was respectful. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:34 PDT 1996 Article: 35546 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:44:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4mocol$lmo@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <317b9ec0.6352405@news.pacificnet.net> <4ls6a5$asj@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4lv91q$1kf@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3bqg$58s@dub-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <4m6i11$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4mlsup$9el@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:45:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>Perhaps because of direct visual testimonies? the SS: Hoess, Broad, >>>Kremer, Bock, Hess, >> Both Hoesses? >The first Hoss is with an "umlaut" on the "o" and his first name is >Rudolf, the habit is to add an "e" after the "o". The second is >Gerhard Hess, Frankfurt trial. You should give a look on some books. >>Hoblinger, Morgen, Storch, Hofman, Wiebeck, >>>Hofmann,.. Prisoners still alive after the war: physicians: >>>Lettich, Bendel, Nyiszli, SK: Fejnsilber, Dragon, Tauber, Muller, >>>Buki, the two Paisikowic, Rosenblum, Silberberg, Mandelbaum, .. Dead >>>SK having buried their testimony: Herman, Gradowski, an anonymous, >>>Lewenthal. >> Perhaps of interest but we also have testimony of mass executions >>by electrocution, steam and suffocation. >You seem a bit confused with the Reinhard action. The thread is about >Auschwitz-Birkenau. They were never testimonies about someone else >HCN, Zyklon, or prussic acid (that's the same in fact). The question, as always, is the reliance upon testimony that is so often clearly incredible. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:35 PDT 1996 Article: 35547 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Burning pits Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:29:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 90 Message-ID: <4moc2g$54p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a1a42.3317524@news.pacificnet.net> <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:33:20 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com >(Ehrlich606) wrote: >> I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out >> of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though >> I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost >> in World War Two. But these postings about rivers of fat are just too >> much for me. How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like >> this? >Well, if one were _only_ to have heard about "rivers of fat" I would agree >with you that it would indeed be an incredulous story. However, as Mr. >Stein has pointed out, (oral) accounts tend to grow with the re-telling. >Nonetheless, when one cuts through such stories there still remains the >kernal of truth: But then you repeat the same silly stories from second hand sources. >"...large pits were dug in the immediate vicinity od the gas chambers for >the burning of the large number of corpses that the crematoria could not >handle. ach pit was 40 to 50 meters long, 8 m wide, and 3 m deep. At the >bottom of each pit, a chamnnel was dug in the center to make possible the >'harvesting' of the fat exuded from the burning corpses for reuse as fuel >in the crematin process. At the height of the deportations from Hungary >nine such pits were in operation, in addition to the crematoria...." >(_Anantomy_, p. 463.) Channel 130 to 160 feet long with just the precise slope to collect it. And all dug by hand >"...Eight pits were dug, each about four by sixty yards in size. On the >bottom of each of the pits the human fat was collected and poured back >into the fire with buckets to hasten the cremation..." (_The Destruction >of the European Jews_, p.629.) Human fat doesn't burn the first time around. >"...They [the Sonderkommandos] dragged the bodies from the gas chambers, >removed the gold teeth, cut off the hair, then dragged the bodies to the >pits or to the ovens. On top of that, they had to maintain the fires in >the pits, pour off the accumulated fat, and poke holes into the burning >mountains of bodies, so that oxygen could enter..." (_Death Dealer_, >p.160.) Fat doesn't burn in these fires. And of course they pour it off >from the channel in the bottom, sort of up-ending the pit. >"In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining technical enterprise based in >Krakow, was commisioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry >out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of >incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to >3m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. >Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are >reserved in the Conservation Department of the museum." (_Anatomy_, p. >179.) "Traces" when there should have been tons as ashes. >Now, to describe the fat running down the channels at the bottom of the >incineration pits as "rivers of fat" would be, IMO, a bit of a stretch of >the imagination, more of the taking of "literary licence" than factual >reporting. But the fact remains that incineration pits _did_ exist and >that fat _did_ run down the channels in these pits and was collected to be >reused as fuel. It is wholely incredible that it would not burn the first time around. But of course, like a believer in Noah's Ark, there is no impossibility that can not be explained away by faith and ignorance. But when the story suits ... Our favorite deceptive chemist wants some average around 20 lbs of fat per person and of course 2 million bodies at Treblinka. Is 40,000,000 lbs of fat a river? Ah, but I forgot. All signs of Treblinka disappeared. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:36 PDT 1996 Article: 35548 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: My psychic powers have failed! Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:56:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 71 Message-ID: <4mmsbs$atq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lh3c3$i9v@wi.combase.com> <4m8ss0$cgr@access5.digex.net> <4ma0h5$bjf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mh6ma$ked@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:59:08 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4ma0h5$bjf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >> > I have just received a psychic flash. >> >> > I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he >> >has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about >> >"Internet Indirect" in response to Mr. Giwer's posted statement about >> >"Internet Indirect." >> >> > You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future, >> >but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn't come >> >true. >> >> Rather I would suggest that when I posted "indirect" the >> respondant post "direct" as my evidence but then you folks are so >> used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save >> to those who care to find the truth. > Note that Mr. Giwer appears to be insinuating that Gordon McFee posted >something different that what I quoted, and that I changed it. Yet >despite his frequent repetition of the principle that the person making >the claim bears the responsibility for providing proof, Mr. Giwer provides >no proof that this has happened. Even OBC forgot to play the game and posted direct rather than indirect. You folks have to organize your efforts better. But as it is you have already muddied the waters on message traffic enough that even the normal extreme difficult of proving message content has been made an impossible task for any silly threat of a lawsuit. > I offer the following instructions to find the truth, from a source >which as far as I know is completely independent of Nizkor or any poster >here (no, I haven't actually contacted them to check - if Mr. Giwer >claims there is some influence, let him prove it): > 1. Go to http://www.dejanews.com [used to be dejanews.dejanews.com] > 2. Use the "Power search" option to filter for alt.revisionism > and gmcfee@ibm.net. > 3. Set the match option to "Any" > 4. Search for the two strings "internet direct" and "internet > indirect" (be sure to put quotes around both strings). > 5. Observe closely that in every post where Mr. Giwer said > "Internet Direct," Mr. McFee responded "Internet Direct." > In the one post where Mr. Giwer said "Internet Indirect," > Mr. McFee responded with the very same (incorrect) name > "Internet Indirect." > Contrary to Mr. Giwer's insinuation, a neutral archive has no record >of Gordon McFee responding with a correct name to an incorrect one. Then how did OBC manage to do it? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:36 PDT 1996 Article: 35549 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!world1.bawave.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:48:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4mp5hb$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m4h26$jsr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m54d0$ess@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mcduv$e6v@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4MAY199607132194@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mhnrs$p9u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4mo35q$3ni@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:47:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> You are a college kid and complely incapable of judging me. > Watch Giwer-the-not-at-all-omniscient as he posts using the power of >his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Give it up. Learn before you post. > Watch him *try* to think with his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Derek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow! Bunghole. Enough said. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:37 PDT 1996 Article: 35551 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!news.fc.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!lexis-nexis!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:55:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4modar$stf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a0f7c.559191@news.pacificnet.net> <4mjah8$4k4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mjtlt$fd6@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:54:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4mjah8$4k4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> The largest numbers posted were from Leuchter who you people will >>not believe. The parts per billion were from the single data >>point from a recent Polish report. However since it constitutes >>only a single data point it is a useless number. >CLEVER TROLL ALERT: Here Mr. Giwer performs one of his favorite tactics. >He tells a lie to change the topic. If an honest person challenges the >lie, Giwer succeeds in changing the topic. If someone does not >challenge the lie in order to prevent Giwer from changing the topic, he >gets away with telling a lie. >Leuchter's method did not discriminate against metal-cyanide complexes >whose presence he cannot explain. The Crakow Report, which includes >many individual measurements using a calibrated method, on the >otherhand, did discriminate against such complexes. But still produces only a single data point by its failure to distinguish between once and never exposed. It further fails to consider rodent control usage in a morgue and in failing to do so presumes the sinister conclusion. Thus they created an "any amount is proof" situation. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:38 PDT 1996 Article: 35552 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: USS LIBERTY Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:46:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 63 Message-ID: <4mn2rq$m73@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <4krsqc$ge8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4kuptr$966@wi.combase.com> <4l08jq$e6u@news.nyu.edu> <4lqjfk$fm3@news.cc.utah.edu> <4m0qul$vg@news.nyu.edu> < <4m37kr$ah2@news.nyu.edu> <4m3o95$nrk@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m6g37$p94@news.nyu.edu> <4m8psc$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4mj5l4$6q8@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:50:02 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35552 alt.conspiracy:48008 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: >: 4m1fn7$t3n@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> >: >: >Distribution: >: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: >Silly Giwer. Your discussion is for kids. Israel's location has long >: >: >been a strategic gateway for access to other parts of the region. >: >: >: You are the one who knows what it is. Please demonstrate it. Or >: >: are you talking about all of those land troop movements through >: >: Israel in the Gulf War? >: >: >: In other words, you have not the slightest idea of military >: >: strategy. All you do is parrot assertions that have heard many >: >: times without understanding what was being said. >: >: >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! >: >: >Good choice, Mr. Giwer, the Persian Gulf War, especially since it's not >: >contiguous to Iraq and ISrael didn't participate. >: >: >Tell you what; study the history of war in the Middle East, then come >: >back and talk to me. Israel's historic role as gateway for armies >: >stomping around the Middle East has existed since before the Egyptians and >: >Babylonians were snarling at each other. >: >: As I said, POST Wright Brothers. Welcome to the 20th century. >Ahhhh.....That's what you meant! You actually wrote "post the Wright >Brothers." I thought you wanted me to post something by the Wright >Borthers, and I had no idea what that meant. >Well, OK. Let's start with World War I. The British saw it as the >gateway, whch is how they wound up in control of it. Or do you assert >that British took then-Palestine because of its strategic resources? You are cute when you are playing stupid. You are absolutely correct. The strategic importance of what is now Israel DIED, ENDED, KAPUT only 20 years after the Wright Brothers. I apologize for the error. It has had no strategic significance in any cold war scenario any more than Somalia. It is a fantasy that presidents have to agree with for the electoral votes of New York. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 07:14:39 PDT 1996 Article: 35554 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: !THE UNAGIWER MANEFESTO Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:32:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 70 Message-ID: <4mmuep$aht@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a2113.5062272@news.pacificnet.net> <4mf0va$p7c@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <318c38ae.37239970@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:34:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Sat, 04 May 1996 07:25:22 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!Unlike money, good information drives out bad. >It doesnt work that way in this medium as your FLOOD of bad information >across the nets shows. You repeat the lies often enough and the weak of >mind and black of heart suck it up. >!The dissemination of all information needs be unatttacked in any >!venue other than competing information. >Is that why you attacked and brought down my website? The only feather >you have in your cap these days. What a slimey hypocrite you are. I told the truth about your website, that it was libelous. And of course I would never have done such a thing if you had not FIRST initiated such tactics against my previous service providers such as Charlen Kyle and Bill Blomgren and James Kittrel. That is three in a row for you before I went after your website. I will not create a special section of my website dedicated to pointing out your lies. I do not consider that a reasonable use of my file space. And Alec has said he is in the process. And since he appears to be new at it and I am not, he is going to get a lot of free help in improving his about you. >!It is an attempt to use other methods to drive out information, >!good or bad, that are not related to the information itself that >!is the provence of the holohuggers on the grounds that "they have >!done it to" the tribal "us" that makes them an immoral activity. >Yeah, dem awful Jews hey Giwer, it always comes down to that doesnt it? >!It is the initiation of violence in the form of harrassment and >!intimation that separates the holohuggers and the amen corner >!from the civilized population of the world. They are of the >!"scruples are best served with garlic butter" camp. They would >!eat them rather than have them. >JEWS JEWS JEWS! >!It is these animals who are eating their own case alive. >JEWS JEWS JEWS! >You slimeball. >Great manifesto you wrote there pal... Gosh... >JEWS JEWS JEWS... And you refuse to admit that our first run in was over your comments about Jews. Alec remembers. Whacked out Jews if I recall correctly. And your defense was that your (whacked out) wife and children were Jewish. Yes, Dahlmen. You need help. If you can't get it at Charter, get it somewhere. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:51 PDT 1996 Article: 35136 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: !GIWER-SLIMEY BIGOT Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:20:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4mmtqe$g38@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lh3c3$i9v@wi.combase.com> <3182d365.15444374@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4m198q$eob@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3184cd07.34342749@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <29APR199615292069@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mekos$5tm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <318c38b6.37247825@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:23:58 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Fri, 03 May 1996 22:18:14 EDT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote and >is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!The provider responded that Giwer was about to be bounced from Combase. >!At about the same time, John Morris, who had also complained to Giwer's >!provider, posted that Giwer was about to get bounced. >I understand why I am mostly ignored in here, people do not want to add >to the flames -- though when it is they who get lied about and libeled >they sure fall into it without much reflection about their own hypocrisy >in the matter. :) >I admit taking some preverted pleasure No one has EVER said you were not perverted. in watching this happen to McFee. >It seems we all tend to judge the net flamers as EQUAL boneheads UNTIL >we personally become the brunt of it, not realizing we have become what >we claimed was a bonehead the day before. What Giwer and Grynspan have >done to me is what Giwer is now doing to McFee. You mean what was done was correct? Perhaps he too, -- 10 >years from now -- will still be hearing the lies that he is a Marduk; a >message forger, a criminal phone harasser who Giwer got fired, ect... >On and on the lies will GO and GROW across nets and usegroups with the >years, with others like Grynspan jumping in to help Giwer along with it. >When I was first drawn in here because of Giwers crossposting, I >suggested a way of dealing with him. Once again... >First I want to be clear on the purpose of this newsgroup. It is indeed >necessary for Nizkor and the many others here to refute the Revisionist >and Deniers lies and corrupt facts. Its boring and hard work, but it has >to be done, hats off to yall. I personally feel that the GIWER fight >going on here over the past few months is not all that detremental to >this Usegroup, and in fact, a bit of relief to the seriousness of the >newsgroup charter. >But there are special cases. By this time you know what Giwer is about >and what his game is. He is an extreme right-wing, hate the goverment >gungoon who hates Jews and wants to show off what he presumes is his >intellectual superiority on matters of history and science, specifically >chemistry. You want to get to him? Deny him that. >Mr Morris today made his pronouncement to put Giwer in his Kill file. >Good for him. Thats one option. The other is to not respond to any issue >oriented message he posts, especially concerning chemistry. Either ignor >those messages or respond with the WHYS of his revisionism and >anti-Semitism rather than his word games and lies. >Another point to help those not interested in reading the Giwergames. >Change the subject to reflect that the message is about Giwer so other >users can pass it by if they wish. You obviously need to get rid or your radio and have that bad tooth extracted. > I suppose I can understand the selfish callous > disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by. > ---------------------------------- > Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/ >FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg > Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996 ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:52 PDT 1996 Article: 35144 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Giwer-troll strikes again Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:04:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 94 Message-ID: <4mm48p$a6v@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4le3jd$fvg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4lrkmh$rb4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4m1k3t$7k2@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 7:07:53 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4lrkmh$rb4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >> >>>In article <4le3jd$fvg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU >>>(Richard J. Green) wrote: >> >>>[snip] >> >[more snip] >> >> And all of this when auto engine exhaust is just as deadly. >[snip - text below is a requote from another post] >>A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by >>Nebe and Dr. Widmann in Mogilev. In the local lunatic asylum, a room >>with twenty to thirty of the insane was closed hermetically, and two >>pipes were driven into the wall. A car was parked outside, and one of >>the metal pipes that Dr. Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of >>the car to the pipe in the wall. The car engine was turned on and the >>carbon monoxide began seeping into the room. After eight minutes, the >>people in the room were still alive. A second car was connected to the >>other pipe in the wall. The two cars were operated simultaneously, and >>a few minutes later all those in the room were dead. >> >> [Note again the time frame is the same as Zyklon-B > This claim has still not been supported. Mr. Giwer claims it is in >the Auschwitz FAQ but he has not quoted the text which supports this >claim, and I cannot seem to find it. As he has posted elsewhere, it is >the responsibility of the one making the claim to support it. Go to the story about the enterprising Fritsch and you will find a time frame given, both a reasonable one or "gas 'em some more the next day addendum. > In addition, the testimony above is not completely clear as to whether >there is an untimed additional interval between the conclusion of the >eight minutes and the start of operation of the second car. I.e., does >the "few minutes" start immediately after the end of the eight minutes of >single-car operation? Or did it start with the ignition of the second >car, even though it might have taken some unspecified amount of time to >get the second car and hook it up? The text is somewhat ambiguous. Can't change the ambiguity. To me it indicates the author doesn't quite konw what he is describing, that he is responding to a request for a story about gassing. That is why I subject the words as best as possible physical laws which do not change. >>and corroborates the eyewitness statement posted here.] > As the Giwer-troll ought to know if he has the scientific knowledge he >claims, concentration must be taken into account, and like must be >compared to like. At least I do not use what I know to deliberately deceive people. In a small enough room, twelve minutes might indeed >suffice for two autos to produce a sufficiently lethal atmosphere in the >room. This says nothing about how long a normal concentration of Zyklon >would have taken in the _same_ room. (One granule of Zyklon, of course, >would have taken approximately forever.) But as you know, although anything may happen in a sufficiently small room, we are talking about Treblinka which another eyewitness claims had a capacity of 1000 per hour and that then entire process took one hour. So are left conclude a room or rooms sufficiently large to deal with that throughput. As for the concentration it can never become greater than that of the exhaust itself thus we would have a basis for coming up with that time if we have the volume for the building and for the engine cylinders and assuming a reasonable RPM. In the ideal world it would be a simple linear increase in the amount of exhaust. Or, on the other hand, we have the claim of the time from this testimony which makes all of the time problems worse. Consider even in suicide cases where the engine is inside the garage and levels can get higher than the primary exhaust itself the attempts are quite often unsucessful and from the news reports I can remember they are often unsuccessful after hours. Of course there are certainly many other factors involved. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:53 PDT 1996 Article: 35148 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:15:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4mmti0$g38@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m90eb$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:19:28 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19242 alt.discrimination:46543 alt.revisionism:35148 alt.skinheads:22029 can.politics:43057 dreilley@pinc.com (David Reilley) wrote: >In article <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource >>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? >>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) >> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most >>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life. >McVay -- now there's a nice Jewish name! You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication, just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back home who can't think. As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was thinking about the person said "we were talking in temple" and his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name. But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their pro-gassing posts with "I am not Jewish but ..." and that is the amen corner. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:54 PDT 1996 Article: 35157 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: eye witness testimony and is value Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:15:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4mn10s$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mjni1$8e7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4mm1fu$7qf@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:18:36 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> >> Of course a defendent always has the opportunity to waive a jury >> and have it heard on the facts by the judge. However, being >> denied the opportunity for a jury trial in the matter of a felony >> would certainly be grounds for overturning the conviction. > Assuming your statement is correct (and it is not in most countries) you >would still have to show a demand for a jury trial. Please do so. There are primitive countries but I await your posting of Western European countries where this is not a true statement. >> As for Europe, it will be interesting to see which countries you >> name outside of the ex-Soviet Union that does not mandate that as >> a basic right, something about it in the UN rights document also >> as I remember. > France does not. Germany does not. Italy does not. Spain does not. >Belgium does not. Poland does not. Austria does not. Monaco does not. >Sweden does not. Denmark does not. The Netherlands do not. Switzerland does >not. Luxembourg does not. Hungary does not. Roumania does not. Greece >does not. Finland does not. Norway does not. In none of those countries is there >a mandated basic right to a jury trial in criminal matters. It is interesting to see your assertion of so many countries acting contrary to the UN Declaration of Rights on the matter. One has to wonder why there were so many signatories to the declaration. > --YFE Yes, kilfile challenged one. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:55 PDT 1996 Article: 35166 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 03:26:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4mmg4r$45s@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4lutvh$dqg@access5.digex.net> <4m460o$oq4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mig83$8bt@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 10:30:35 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >> Fascinating that another educated chemist does not simply use any >>of his standard reference material to simply post the equations >>that would give a ballpark first order approximation for the rate >>of outgassing. >> >> But it appears that two highly educated chemists in a row appear >>to wish to rely upon handwaving rather what for them would be >>such a minor task. > Why should they go to the trouble of doing so for a person who is not >capable of understanding or verifying the correctness of the equations? >What is the point? Quite to the contrary it would not be simply for me but also the first time anyone has done such a think and it would be a great contribution to the entire pro-holocaust position. In fact there are enough technical issues in the subject that a toxicologist and a chemist could certainly put together a very publishable book on the subject. That such a book does not exist is quite noteworthy by its absense. It is certainly a gaping omission in what could otherwise be much more complete story and one that people such as I who have no interest in further conflicting eyewitness testimony could be easily referred to. And please do not tell me Pressac is one as what has been posted >from his book is patently absurd. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:56 PDT 1996 Article: 35198 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 05:04:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 141 Message-ID: <4mmlr3$9d6@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <199605039728.ABC87127@infinity.c2.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 12:07:47 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:912 alt.revisionism:35198 alt.conspiracy:47537 jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >What we have here is a first. >Ingrid Rimland has previously said that she doesn't understand all this >complicated scientific stuff, and that she leaves it up to Ernst Zuendel >to decide whether it's all true or not. Actually, Ernst Zuendel makes >the same claim about not understanding scientific stuff, which leaves it >open as to which of them is actually making up whose mind. >In any case, Ms. Rimland has now distributed pseudoscientific >balderdash, masquerading as real science, to 6,000 people by her count. >I am deliberately writing this refutation of that balderdash for a lay >audience, so that she need not tune it out. I am sending it to her in >email. She owes it to herself to read it. >And she owes it to her readers to make them aware of it. >I fear that both debts will go uncollected, but she is welcome to prove >me wrong by providing me with her comments, and posting the URL to this >article in her next Zgram: >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01 >Ingrid Rimland (irimland@cts.com) began by quoting one anonymous source: >> Being an Engineering graduate, I believe that math never lies, but you >> don't have to be to understand the following logic (if you consider) >> that one, roughly needs the heat energy of 300 Kg of coal to combust >> one person. Multiply this by 6 Million (the persons in question) and >> you get 1.8 Million Tons of coal-which is way above the capacities of >> Germany during the war. >This is a false conclusion based on a false premise. It does not >require the heat energy of 300 kg of coal to burn a corpse; once the >temperature is high enough, a corpse self-combusts. This provides more >heat, which can be used to raise the temperature of the next corpse to >the self-combustion point. >What is self-combustion? Well, it takes a certain amount of heat energy >to start a log burning, after which it burns by itself and actually >gives off heat energy. It works the same way with meat, including human >corpses. Once the temperature is high enough, flesh burns and gives off >enough heat energy to continue the combustion process without any >additional heat energy from a fuel source -- coal or otherwise. Spontanious human combustion, as it is called, is an extremely rare phenomenon. It is so rare and so hard to explain that it has been the subject material for folks like Charles Fort. And even then, it has never been complete and has been limited to severely obese people. >Calculations by Rich Green, presented on this newsgroup, clearly >demonstrate that at the temperatures used by the Nazi crematory ovens, >the heat energy released by the burning tissue was more than sufficient >to maintain the incineration and to evaporate the water in the body. >(This article is emailed to Rich Green, who is invited to provide the >calculations in a followup article. Since this article is for a lay >audience, I won't get too technical.) You need to pay attention to what has been posted. The only thing he has posted is me doing some trivial multiplication and I added the energy of evaporation and he as yet to explain how he is going to get that amount of energy out of 1/10 gm of organics. >In fact, this is how the Nazi ovens were designed to work, starting with >the Dachau ovens designed in 1937. (See Gutman, Yisrael, and Michael >Berenbaum, Eds., _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, 1995, pp. >183-186ff.) Once they were heated to the proper temperature, no >additional fuel was required except the corpses themselves, and cool, >fresh air which was blown through the oven, under pressure, to aid the >combustion process. Second hand sources again being of no value as at best this is an opinion by non-engineers about a design. It is essential to have the original design criteria from an original source to have anything meaningful. >Ms. Rimland would know this if she had been reading alt.revisionism; >this was a topic of discussion earlier this year. But alas, she has >decided that there is nothing on the newsgroup but mudslinging and hate. Yes, as we are still awaiing Green to either eliminate it it or add it to his potential list of three deliberate deceptions. >> The question of time. One needs 2 hr. today with modern ovens to burn >> one person and need to produce thousands of BTU 's of energy. Take >> that 2 hr. and divide it by a day. This works out to 12 bodies >> without time in between, even with 100 crematories (this is more than >> existing sites today) >Again, a false conclusion derived from a false premise. >One needs two hours to burn a body today if one wishes to reduce the >corpse to a fine, white ash suitable for presentation to the grieving >family and friends. >The Nazis were under no such obligation. They only needed to burn the >body enough to reduce its mass significantly. Whether the large bones >were reduced to a fine ash or not, they did not care. They pulled out >the burnt remains and broke the largest bones into smaller pieces if >necessary. At least you were not deceived by Green with his bones don't burn routine. But the bones are hardly the heart of the issue. Modern ones run at 1200 C while those ran at 800 C. Even adding 576 degrees for the absolute temperature, that is much greater difference in heat transfer capacity than even the ratio of 1200 to 800 would represent. And all of this handwaving is required to preserve a throughput rate in support of gassing rather than of disease. >Ms. Rimland would know this if she had been reading alt.revisionism; >this was a topic of discussion earlier this year. But alas, she has >decided that there is nothing on the newsgroup but mudslinging and hate. You obviously have not read it. >> Where would all that energy (have) come from to fuel these so-called >> ovens? >From the corpses themselves. Perhaps you can explain how you can get enough heat out of 10% of remaining organics to boil off the previous 90% of water. Please feel free to do so. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:57 PDT 1996 Article: 35208 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:55:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4mmvsd$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mieir$7c4@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:59:09 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: > Followups to alt.revisionism only. >In article <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >> Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious >>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a >>secular event. > If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard >why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this >possible violation of the law? If they act to change the situation, then >they will thank you. If they do not act, then it will become clear that a >religious organization can do this. This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver beavers. I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the problem. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:58 PDT 1996 Article: 35218 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ignorance of the Law (Giwer's, of course) Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:23:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4mmqel$37u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mdsku$m3t@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mfsqe$9e0@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:26:29 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> You might as well not waste your time. As with the last time you >> posted they will deny ever having read it and go on as though >> nothing was said. You should have noticed by now that these are >> not honest people. > When it is Giwer writng about the law it is best to ignore what is >written. FRE 804(b)(2) makes certain statement *automatically* admissible. >*Any* statement is admissible under FRE 804 (b)(5). Read the law, asshole. Beenj there, done that, got the quote. (2) Statement under belief of impending death. In a prosecution for homicide or in a civil action or proceeding, a statement made by a declarant while believing that the declarant's death was imminent, concerning the cause or circumstances of what the declarant believed to be impending death. What does the declarant's statement about the cause of his impending death have to do with the subject under discussion? Are you sure you are not a paralegal? Anyone interested can find it at the following URL. http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/804.html ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:58 PDT 1996 Article: 35280 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: How many deaths were there at Auschwitz? Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:35:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4mmuk6$aht@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <318C3A8E.5436@kaiwan.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:37:42 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Greg Raven wrote: >Robert Faurisson's piece, "How many deaths were there at Auschwitz?", is >now available on my Web site. >The URL is: > http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/auschwitz_deaths.html It is obviously anti-semitic to document such things. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:17:59 PDT 1996 Article: 35289 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies) Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:30:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4mbgms$2up@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ls3d5$r8h@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4majph$6ca@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 6:32:44 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote: >: I thought you [Myshkin] disliked polls and that "soft science" stuff. >Hey, he *loves* that "soft science" stuff. Isn't he fond of telling us >about his IQ of 163? And when he does, it's the *hard science* part >that he can't grasp (i.e. the difference between a raw score and a >scaled score, and what a standard deviation is). Where were you during the bone burning deception by your fellow chemist? Where were you during the HCN being produced by the Krema fires deception by your fellow chemist? Are you another of those undergraduates implying department membership? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:00 PDT 1996 Article: 35313 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 00:57:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 63 Message-ID: <4mguef$svb@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4krjsq$ca1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4m0elf$56h@news-central.tiac.net> <4m22ql$jtj@dfw-ixnews4.ix..netcom.com> <830972166snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <4mbfgs$9ce@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <318A5E07.5B78@one.net> <4mdv27$km3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <318aa923.7246284@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4medvu$jbr@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <318b7aa1.46809984@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 7:57:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35313 soc.culture.jewish:48344 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19315 soc.culture.israel:32770 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Sat, 04 May 1996 02:08:08 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!>What crap you anti-Semites work with this issue. It was a mistake, an >!>awful mistake, we all know it was a mistake because there would be no >!>motive AT ALL for bombing a UN refugee hospital. A 300 meter long >!>range artillery mistake. >!After they were told on the telephone that it was a refugee camp, >!it was a mistake? >What crap word games you play you slimey bigot. >!After they carefully targeted the camp it was a mistake? >What crap word games you play you scummy anti-Semite. Tell it to the man in charge of the UN camp. I simply repeat what he said. >!>None of the attacks on Isrealies are MISTAKES. >!>Neither was the Holocaust Giwer... >!>It was a PLANNED EXTERMINATION USING GAS. >!>Got it? Good... >!Been listening to me on the radio again? >Look at yourself pal. You deny the Nazis had a plan to exterminate the >Jews, you deny the Nazis ever gassed any Jews, you deny that 6 million >Jews died in the Holocaust, you deny there were gas chambers, you call >those who believe those things "holohuggers" who are "all a bunch of >liars", and now you wish us to believe Isreal purposely attacked a UN >refugee field hospital. >Yer a real yuck pal... >And then you have a tizzy fit and threaten law suits when anyone calls >you an anti-Semite. A real yuck.... >BTW, why did the Jews want to blow up a UN refugee camp and kill a >hundred people for the world press? >I have my finger on the SAVE KEY here waiting for the answer Giwer. You have a save key? That was the Atari 800 wasn't it? > I suppose I can understand the selfish callous > disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by. > ---------------------------------- > Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/ >FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg > Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996 What you really need to do is have those teeth extracted and get rid of the radio. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:01 PDT 1996 Article: 35319 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:29:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 91 Message-ID: <4mc983$obd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4l3uno$q77@news.nyu.edu> <4lbjab$jhg@wi.combase.com> <4lrvc5$4qe@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4m8hte$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:31:31 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4m8hte$beg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >[snip] >> But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and >> punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at >> Auschwitz? >GIWER STUPIDITY ALERT: If Giwer would stop acting like an unwashed pig and >instead read what was posted, he would have realized that his question was >already answered in my origional post! To whit: >...Taylor continues (_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.54-55, p.54fn): > The defendants would compromise "a large number of individuals and > officials who were in authority in the government, in the military > establishment, including the General Staff, and in the financial, > industrial, and economic life of Germany who by all civilized standards > are provable to be common criminals." The charges against them would be: > > (a) Atrocities and offenses against persons or property constituting > violations of International Law, including the laws, rules, and customs > of land and naval warfare..... > (b) Atrocities and offenses, including atrocities and persecutions on > racial and religious grounds, committed since 1933. This is only to > recognize the principles of criminal law as they are generally observed > in civilized states. These principles have been assimilated as a part > of the International Law at least since 1907....* >...In regards to points (a) and (b) above, this was in reference to the >Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Law and Customs of War on Land >(1907). Specifically, in regards to German violations of this treaty, >concerning occupied territories, some of the applicable articles in the >annex to the Covention (_The Laws of War_, ISBN 0-679-73712-X; pp.232-233) >are: > Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed > into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all measures in his > power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, > while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in forces in the > country. > Article 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied > territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power. > Article 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and > private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, > must be respected. > Article 47. Pillage is formally forbidden. > Article 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be > inflicted upon the population on accounts of the acts of individuals > for which they cannot be regarded s jointly and severally responsible. >Said articles of the Hague Convention, their violation by Germany, and the >bringing of charges against Nazi officials and individuals, have nothing >to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany was a signatory >_prior_ to the violations that were committed. >> Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial >> an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of >> justice. >REALITY CHECK: In truth Giwer has severe problems in dealing with reality. >It also appears, given his lack of critical faculties, that he probably >has problems dressing himself. Perhaps rooting around in pig-shit IS the >best he can do! You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to individuals as I have noted many times. Please be specific in your response, idiot. >posted-e-mailed to Matt "I like pig-shit!" Giwer Unsolicited email is a form of harrassment for which this conference in famous. It is based upon the ancient history that commercial providers charge by the email. Many children still believe that is true. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:02 PDT 1996 Article: 35352 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4movtq$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a0f7c.559191@news.pacificnet.net> <4mjah8$4k4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mmjd6$m7e@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:12:10 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>>tom moran wrote: >>># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just >>># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to >>># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site. >>># The results were next to nothing. >>>I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone >>>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony, >>>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they >>>never said? >>>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered >>>in Treblinka. >> You still haven't looked up the two trials of Hoess on >>indictments brought by General Rudenko and discovered which one >>he was acquitted of. >> You folks won't believe it if I tell you. >I don't know that anyone will, Mr. Giwer. You track record with the >truth is, well, awful. That is why I want a true holohugger to find and post the information as if I do so, that truth will also be denounced as a lie simply because it does not fit the legends. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:03 PDT 1996 Article: 35353 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4movu0$78h@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m0jq1$2t1@boris.eden.com> <4m7230$kpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mb5b1$qs0@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> <4mj06c$hvj@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mm64u$sbs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mo48i$oof@shiva.usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:12:16 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35353 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19338 alt.discrimination:46586 alt.skinheads:22188 can.politics:43322 hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >Gregory Taylor (gtaylor@msn.fullfeed.com) writes: > You are either monumentally naive if you actually believe that, > or malicious beyond compare if you think that my family > "deserves" what you know they will be subjected to. >In article <4mm64u$sbs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) intrudes his ignorance: > Your family, yes, unto the seventh generation isn't it? >Yes, God, in the Scriptures, does reserve the right to punish >families "unto the seventh generation," but only God has that right. > Very Jewish. >Not in the least! This is very Giwer, to misinterpret the Scriptures >and blame it on the Jews! Perhaps you would care to explain it? > 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. >--Matt "I said it, but I will blame you for it!" Giwer > What kind of truth is it that needs protection? >When Mr. Giwer is around, all truth needs protection. Do you wear a superhero costume while you are defending the truth >from me? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:03 PDT 1996 Article: 35368 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: what is a troll? Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:10:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 15 Message-ID: <4movtf$jjp@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <831376208snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Alexander Baron wrote: >What exactly is a troll? Somebody once told me what a spam is but I'm not sure >I understand that either. Troll is an ancient yuletide charole. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:04 PDT 1996 Article: 35374 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:45:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <4mp22i$pft@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <318f4c27.3304288@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:48:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > Repost. > "Fears Rise Over Nazi Weapons Leaking at Bottom of the Baltic" > Los Angeles Times, July 18, 1992 > "Tons of chemical weapons dumped by > the Allies after World War II, > have nudged the sea to the brink of > catastrophe, scientists say." > "By tossing 300,000 tons of ready - to - fire weapons - enough >to to kill the entire population of Europe ... The 300,000 tons of >chemical weapons now submerged in the Baltic Sea's greenish brown >waters contain enough active gases to kill 800 million people ..." > Interesting connotations. The Germans had all these chemical >weapons, but did not use them, even when they were on the brink, and >here we have the actions of the Allies threatening to accomplish what >the Nazis refrained from doing. > One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone >B pellets to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely >had? Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid >carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there. >'Oh look Commoissar, heres a empty can of pesticide.' I get the impression it is like the search for a big enough room to gas so many people so quickly, that Zykon B was tortured into the role. Of course if I could find evidence of the publication of Hoess's purported memoirs before 1959 that might put a different light upon it. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:05 PDT 1996 Article: 35375 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: L'il Tommy: Wrong Again (nu?) Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:31:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4mofmc$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mjfdl$46a@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mmfl1$c7d@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:35:08 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> I asked months ago where the warehouses full of physical evidence >> were stored and the best I got in response was "Are you saying >> there are not warehouses full of evidence?" Would you like to >> answer the question? >> > Sure, asshole. In the record of the proceedings. Have you read them? No physical evidence then? >> > If it was not done at the time, how do you explain the report of Charles >> >Larson, M.D. a forensic pathologist. >> >> If you are referring to what was posted here, that was hearsay >> unless he was working for the SS during the war. > No it was the report of an expert. Show us your ignorance of the law >again, asshole. Tell me that an expert cannot use hearsay to form his >conclusions. He was not there to witness what he talked talked about. There was no conclusion. There was a description of what happened. It is hearsay. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:06 PDT 1996 Article: 35409 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:13:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4mp79n$ebs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m90eb$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:17:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19361 alt.discrimination:46591 alt.revisionism:35409 alt.skinheads:22223 can.politics:43362 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: com> <4mmti0$g38@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> >Distribution: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: dreilley@pinc.com (David Reilley) wrote: >: >: >In article <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >: >: >>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource >: >>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? >: >>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >: >>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) >: >: >: >> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most >: >>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life. >: >: >McVay -- now there's a nice Jewish name! >: >: You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New >: York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus >: on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication, >: just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything >: while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back >: home who can't think. >Ha! Ha! Ha! You, apparently, read things into the news that no one else >does. Apparently, you're the only one who can't think. >Nice dodge, by the way. YOu didn't say Mr. McVay gives the "amen Corner" >a bad name; you said he gives "Jews" a bad name. Loser! Another error >for the Giwer book......... Does not even the Talmud comment upon the people with whom one associates? >: As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones >: discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was >: thinking about the person said "we were talking in temple" and >: his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name. >Yes, but there are names that give strong hints they aren't "Jewish." >McVay sounds awfully Irish to me, and I'm very familiar with the Jewish >population of Ireland -- not vry big, so the odds of McVay being one ar >pretty damned small. >Besides, why argue this, if you )according to the above) meant the "amen >corner," not that McVay was Jewish? >Get it straight, Mr. Happy. >: >: But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their >: pro-gassing posts with "I am not Jewish but ..." and that is the >: amen corner. >Well, then by your logic that would make you Part of the "Sig Heil" >corner. Since we agree that you are, let ,e point out that you give the >"Sig Heil" corner no worse name than they already have......... I have declined to respond to the "are you a nazi" questions precisely because that is how a denial would have been used by you folks. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:07 PDT 1996 Article: 35425 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies) Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 00:10:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 48 Message-ID: <4mooou$hhk@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <316a61e7.2309376@news.pacificnet.net> <4mh3n1$lof@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mkan2$c15@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 7:10:06 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: ># Sorry about your stupidity, no one who has EVER seen a diesel ># powered bus is going to believe your fabrications. >Sigh. If you could only read English, we could make some progress here. >I didn't write the Pattle et. al. paper about the experiments with the >diesel fumes. They did. >The largest amount of white smoke was present under condition D, >that is, the engine running without load, and with a fuel-air ratio >intentionally set to higher than the usual ratio. This resulted >in fumes which were more lethal than under other running conditions, >and therefore it is certainly possible that the SS, for some time, >ran the engines connected to the gas chambers under conditions >similar to D. >Obviously, a bus isn't run under such conditions; there is a load, >and the fuel-air ratio is correct. >The bottom line is that diesels can produce white smoke. This >was proved in the Pattle et. al. experiments. You appear to be describing a condition in which the mixture was so rich that the oil was pumped through completely unburned and appeared out the exhaust as a hot aerosol. In that case you would have these buildings saturated with oil quite quickly, making them major fire hazards. One spark from those trains and the entire complex would be up in flames. It is unclear how the place could have survived for so long under these hazardous conditions. And in this case you would not be talking about death by poisoning but by suffocation brought about by oil coated lungs. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:07 PDT 1996 Article: 35431 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:29:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4mp4hj$7sp@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kv5gk$1m30@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4kvb87$hpo@wi.combase.com> <4l3dvq$f2i@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4l3n28$so3@wi.combase.com> <4l5m9o$4u@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4l684p$a71@wi.combase.com> <4lb3j8$1le0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4lq1hv$4k4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m16h0$1cug@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4m1gjo$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31854e14.67384384@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <318622A8.64D@nt.com> <31883aff.9899431@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4m9u71$ags@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <318a0a3a.44775711@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <318E0579.A13@nt.com> <318fffd0.14009841@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:30:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Mon, 06 May 1996 09:58:17 -0400, Alec Grynspan >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!> Whats so absurd about all this is that both you and Grynspan put your >!> lies up against the truth, get caught over and over again, and then >!> squawk like the little piggies you are about it. >! >!You always do have to try to pull down those who are more intelligent >!than you, don't you? >So whats yer IQ again Alec. I forget, wasnt it off the scale or >something? Yeah, yer a real friggin genious pal... :) >How did SOAPBOX ROCK end Alec? You and your gang of creeps banned seven >people, They were all you. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:08 PDT 1996 Article: 35435 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:47:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4mp5ff$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m4h26$jsr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m681g$5ct@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4m8q41$3dn@news.nyu.edu> <4ma05d$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mcf1s$9ps@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mdpvh$p9r@informer1.cis.McMaster <4mgr8v$7hd@news.nyu.edu> <4mm5ek$lat@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4mo3dd$44e@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:46:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> And I am certainly Miss Laura can speak for herself without your >>help. Are you trying to pick up the women here? > Well, I can see why Giwer has such a reputation - he accuses someone >of being a "college kid" (implying immaturity and lack of experience), then >sneers at someone in a manner of an insecure teenager. I was merely highlighting again the holohugger/amen corner tendency to jump in and speaking for those with their same mindset. I happened to read two messages in a row where you were speaking for women. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:09 PDT 1996 Article: 35456 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: The idiocy of giwers Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:40:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4mmrgl$gav@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <4j12kg$55b@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4lhqkt$b4g@wi.co <4m3bgf$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4mgmmp$a4@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:44:37 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28036 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19380 alt.discrimination:46596 alt.revisionism:35456 alt.skinheads:22257 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote: >>phone calls. And he still thinks I work for IBM. Poor frightened >>delusional old Giwer-troll. >Moved over from Internet Direct, eh? >-- >The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource > Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? > Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) Fascinating that someone remembers the difference between direct and indirect despite the denials and changed messages posted here. But of course, someone will change your post and swear to it. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:09 PDT 1996 Article: 35457 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer continues to hog this site. Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:45:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4mmrop$gav@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <318BE2D0.639D@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:48:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Chuck Ferree wrote: >Over 450 posts, many new ones, on a great variety of topics and >subject matter. Just take a peek at Giwers number of posts. And to >make matters worse, you have to read the crap to get rid of it. He >babbles on and on about everything, contending that his superior IQ of >20-30 something gives him some kind of an edge. If the man would just >deal with the subject at hand, this could be an interesting site for >intelligent discussions. Matt Giwer prevents that from happening and >he loves every minute of it. Ever see a dog roll around in the grass >on another dogs droppings? That dog loves to rub dog shit all over his >body and this behavior reminds me of Matt Giwer. It's illogical, >stinks up the place, and the smelly dog ends up sleeping in the cold >as a result of this natural impulse to smear doggie doo doo on his own >body. Giwers sure reminds me of my dog, an ugly mutt, no brains, >useless won't even bark at burglars, just takes up space, and sheds >hair all over the carpet. Needs to be loved though, in spite of the >problems he creates. He's old, some day soon the Vet will tell us it's >time, and bye bye pooch. Then all I'll have is old Matt Giwer, rolling >around in doo doo, smelling up the place, taking up too much space, >contributing nothing to make society better. Pathetic!!! ;-) >Chuck Ferree Hey, nerfbrain (a harmless imitation of the real thing), how can I be hogging a group that will expand to fit the message traffic? Try the warez group for ibm binaries and see how bit a site can really be. But you were a ranking officer? translator? pilot? ranking officer staff? on that trip to A-B? It is no secret today that more people were in Vietnam combat than the Army has any record of. WW II heros are no less plentiful. Got a real name, rank and serial number for us? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:10 PDT 1996 Article: 35467 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:01:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4mmsld$atq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mhr94$s8n@Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:04:13 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote: >Um... Giwer? Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but Ken isn't Jewish. >Neither is Jamie, and neither am I. >-rich > http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html Called the amen corner the last I heard. I have never stated there was only one component to this phenomenon. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:11 PDT 1996 Article: 35521 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies) Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 02:25:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 276 Message-ID: <4mh3n1$lof@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <316a61e7.2309376@news.pacificnet.net> <4klqbv$lua@informer1.cis.mcmaster.ca> <4kmv1t$bli@atlas.uniserve.com> <4kp5eh$1340@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4kpl61$k9i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4llsb6$1he@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4lon7m$ra@news.nyu.edu> <4mc9pi$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mejf1$slv@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 9:27:45 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: >: >: >: du> <4l4u1c$1vdo@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> >: >: >: >: >: >: <4l6b7d$bmh@wi.combase.com> >: >: >: >: >: >: <4l9aej$t2i@wi.combase.com> Distribution: >: >: >: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@combase.com) wrote: >: >: >: >: Lets see. There were enthusiastic crowds when Hitler drove through >: >: >: the streets after annexation. Therefore Austrians enthusiastically >: >: >: embraced annexation. >: >: >: >: There was an enthusiastic crowd in Tampa to greet Clinton on his last >: >: >: visit. Therefore Tampa enthusiastically embraced Clinton. >: >: >: >: It would be an awfully incompetent political party that could not turn >: >: >: out an enthusiastic crowd. >: >: >: >: However, I do find it extremely common that people will assume that >: >: >: such crowds are spontanious. When Pres. Eisenhower wanted one he >: >: >: would let civilians servants go home early if they showed up as a >: >: >: cheering crowd first. >: >: >: >: Of course, that is revisionism. Austrian crowds were different from >: >: >: all other political crowds in the world. I understand the dogma. >: >: >: >Mr. Giwer is employing Denier Technique #7,218: Don't actually say >: >: >anything which refutes the point (here, that Austria embraced Hitler >: >: >enthusiastically). Instead, just point out why the evidence presented >: >: >doesn't meet your personal standards. Provide no evidence for this, >: >: >either, other than your opinion of what's logical. >: >: >: Some day you should publish a complete list of the techniques. >: >: It will be interesting to see how agreement with the premise of >: >: those crowds being different can constitute denying anything. >: >: But let me remark that I find you "standard of proof" rather in >: >: line with the common assumption that all crowds are spontaneous. >: >: >Not even necessary -- I never assumed all crowds were spontaneous, and if >: >you can find anywhere I said that, I'll send you 10 bucks. >: >: The lack of an explicite statement hardly negates the presumption >: in your posts. >Chicken. Just like I thought. You like to make accusations, but you >can't back them up, so you turn tail and run. Bawk. Do you not realize how old hat this "betting" thing is on the nets? >: >Are crowds evidence of enthusiasm? I would say yes. >: >: Right! And the usual trick for that was to have the cafes along >: the route pouring freely. It was not invented in Austria. >Source, please? The earliest reference I have come across to it was Chicago machine politics from the 20s but then it was speakeasies. You have never heard of using alcohol for politics? They even cheer louder. >: Do they prove >: >EVERYONE is enthusiastic? of course not. But your counter-example is >: >interesting -- if crowds of cheering people lined the streets for >: >Clinton's visit to Tampa, I would say "Tampa greeted Clinton >: >enthusiastically." >: >: Then you would be knowingly lying as you would more properly be >: saying that in the small part of the streets you saw on camera >: that you saw a staged political rally as they all are. Even >: honest journalists would only photograph the action. >well, I was in DC for the inauguration (I lived there at the time) and by >golly, there was a huge outpouring of enthusiasm. And you know what? No >free anything at the inauguration route. You had to go to the parties >later for food and such, and those weren't free. In inaugrations, as you are attempting to confuse this with, they were the party activists that came to be invited to the celebration and paid to cover the cost of the celebration. Or did you show up to cheer? I lived there for 25 years. I never did know a local who showed up to cheer. Were you the exception I should have known? >: >More to the point, nothing you have said disproves Austria greeting >: >Hitler enthusiastically. You've given some half-assed, unsupported >: >assertions about Eisenhower, and somehow in your mind that's enough. >: >: Now I am supposed to prove a negative? Very creationist of you. >It's creationist to want proof of an assertion? How anti-standards of >you. This explains why you never provide support for anything you say. >YOu asserted it, but now you can't prove it. Bawk. You will note your words are "disproves Austria" etc. How am I supposed to disprove? Am I to take you literally and note that only Austrians can greet? You appear to have a serious cognitive problem. But now that we are down to only people can greet then we also accept that not all of Austria was lining the streets. (Of course you can demand I prove they were not.) After we are down to some then we know there were many members of the Nazi Party in Austria so we have a ready made crowd. If they needed more you simply give them something in return just like party workers drive people to polling booths today and swing by a MacDonalds or some such to "obligate" them to the party of the driver. Are you really as naive as you sound or was there some point to your pretending? >: >: >: >> >In fact, he uses the parallel examples of >: >"ordinary >: >: >: >> >citizens'" complicity in other atrocities--in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, >: >: >: >> >Armenia, etc.--as part of his argument that "ordinary Germans" were >: >: >: >> >similarly complicit in the Holocaust. >: >: >: >> >: >: >: >> I can see it all now, millions of armed Germans hunting them down and >: >: >: >> killing them. When you read it did you not notice the absurdity of >: >: >: >> this comparison? >: >: >: >: >Hundreds of thousands, actually--although in Germany, millions stood >: >: >: >silently by and let it happen. >: >: >: >: So you are in the "everyone but the Jews and the homosexuals and the >: >: >: slavs and the gypsies etc. knew what was happening" camp. Very good. >: >: >: I will try to remember that. >: >: >: >Ooooh, he's a "Neo-Nizkorite" or whatever it was he called someone. He's >: >: >keeping a "mental file" -- the difference between him and Nizkor is that >: >: >Nizkor keeps the actual statements, so as to be accurate. >: >: >: But to be used selectively and out of context of an exchange with >: >: the intent to deceive. >: >: >Nope. You've got no proof of that, because it didn't happen. Someday >: >you'll realize that demanding proof of the holocaust while providing no >: >evidence of anything you say makes you look like an *sshole. >: >: Some day you will learn that a proof of negative is very >: creationist. >How odd -- Matt Giwerhas a new epithet of the day when he's doging backing >up his statements -- "creationist." Mr. Giwer, if you have no support for >your assertions, positive or negative, then you're just blowing smoke. >Troll. I clearly have the eyewitness testimony contrary to each other and physical law as evidence. That you folks believe so strongly that you explain it all away, much as a creationist explains away the impossibilities of the Flood and as convincingly, is only convincing to your fellow believers. Witness the "explanation" that diesel engine exhaust looks white. And I have yet to dump on the boy that steam is invisible after it expands. Yet he BELIEVES it. > : >: >: Here's the passage from Goldhagen : >: >: >I was thinking >of: : >: >: >: >"No reason exists to believe that modern, western, even Christian man is >: >: >: >incapable of holding notions which devalue human life, which call for its >: >: >: >extinction, notions held by [other] peoples. . . throughout history. . . . >: >: >: >Who doubts that the Argentine or Chilean murderes of >: >: >: >people who opposed the recent authoritarian regimes thought that their >: >: >: >victims deserved to die? Who doubts that the Tutsis who slaughtered >: >: >: >Hutus in Burundi or the Hutus who slaughtered Tutsis in Rwanda, that one >: >: >: >Lebanese militia which slaughtered the civilian supporters of another, >: >: >: >that the Serbs who have killed Croats or Bosnian Muslims, did so out of >: >: >: >conviction in the justice of their actions? Why do we not believe the >: >: >: >same for the German perpetrators?" (pp. 14-15). >: >: >: >: >Goldhagen invokes these other examples to point out that those mass >: >: >: >murders were ideologically motivated, and to foreground his examination >: >: >: >of the ideology that led Germans to support the Nazi government's actions >: >: >: >against Jews. He is particularly critical of the idea that German >: >: >: >soldiers and other participants in the killings of Jewish civilians >: >: >: >needed to be persuaded or compelled to participate. >: >: >: >: So by mixing metaphors of actions of governments and of people he is >: >: >: able to indicted 50,000,000 people. It is not a very subtle >: >: >: propaganda technique. I would have expected you to notice it. >: >: >: >Actually, I would have expected that you read the book before you >: >: >pronounce your decision of Goldhagen's methods. Do you alweays decide >: >: >before seeing any actual facts? >: >: >: If facts about the book are not being posted here, what is the >: >: point to the discussion? >: >: >Given that minute fragments of a long book have been posted here, I ask >: >again: Do you always decide before seeing any actual facts? >: >: I have only commented upon what has been posted here, not upon >: the book as a whole. As you know that is true, what is the point >: of your question? >WHoops, it's the Matt Giwer "opposite time" again. Of course I don't >"know" that is true, because it isn't. You've commented on parts from >all over the whole damn >book, and you haven't read anything in it. >That's called "distortion" and "intellectual dishonesty," words I think >must be on your family crest. That things from all over the book were posted here and that I commented upon them is true. It is also true that those same things were defended by people who had not read the book. When was the rule passed that only one side had to read the book before commenting? >: >: >: 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. >: >: >: >: What kind of truth is it that needs protection? >: >: >: >What kind of idiot summarizes a book's methodolgy without even reading it? >: >: >: You need to learn what summarizing methodology means before you >: >: start talking about someone doing it. If you knew what that >: >: meant you would know I have not. If you had been following the >: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the >: >: book does not contain the methodology. >: >: >The book does not contain "the" methodology? Interesting accusation. >: >: Go back and read. >I did. Try again, with feeling this time. With feeling this time. >: If you had been following the >: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the >: >: book does not contain the methodology. >: >: Notice "ANOTHER PERSON" in the statement? Another person made >: the accusation, not me. >Aha! The newest Giwer technique: "someone else said it, not me." >We're still waiting on about 3 other places where you've made this >allegation. Correcting the false statements of holohuggers is a very old technique of mine. >: >Sometime you will have to explain what "the" methodology is. >: >But given that you have not read the book, you have no basis upon which >: >to summarize its methodology. which makes you a troll just starved for >: >attention. >: >: When you learn to read what you responding to, get back to me. >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >MAn, you still haven't figured out what's happened, have you? Quite a schoolboy response. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:12 PDT 1996 Article: 35522 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: A little Q&A on the holocaust Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 10:11:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 398 Message-ID: <4mps6o$2b6@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:14:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 What was the holocaust? First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million people went into concentration and work camps and about a million emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared. Second there are stories about the holocaust. And this is where the problem lies. The stories, although oft repeated, have not been critically reviewed. The question is, why would people lie about what happened to them? There are many likely answers to that question. o Motivation Plain and simple revenge against the people who had imprisoned them for years and treated them in an absolutely shameful manner. o Mistaken In any prison rumor is the fastest moving and most erroneious thing there is. The repetition of common camp rumors as the truth is certainly to have been expected. o Physical condition Although there is question as to the physical conditions in the camps, were they in fact as bad as told then these people were on the point of starvation and that common induces pyschosis particularly if it has been long term. Certainly there are other possible explanations for false information to have been generated but these three are sufficient to indicate there is a clear need for physical evidence for these statements to support. This testimony can not be accepted as true without physical evidence. What was the plan for the Holocaust? Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it discusses two plans, before and after the conference. The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note. The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be moved out of Europe. The is referred to as "to the east" and by the curious word "emigrated" in the common translation. No death camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe, certainly a violation of human rights but that is it. After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister. The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a deliberate plan to kill people introduced by this means only. In between the description of these two plans there is what appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan. But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65 to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I. The conclusion of course is that although this document is often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned to exterminate the Jews, it is clearly nothing of the kind. That plan in even the worst case interpretation was developed in late 1941. What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust? Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the information we have comes from witnesses. Unfortunately these witnesses are not particularly credible in that the tell stories that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best. Additionally the most common witness testimony used to support these stories is only from the prosecution without indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases. One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as turning off the gravity. What is the physical evidence for the holocaust? Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work camps and that very few survived. But what little physical evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being force fit into a preconceived conclusion. For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that had to have occurred to satisfy the 12 million body count and the reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the effort is to find features of a morgue converted into a gas chamber to perform this function. This effort has problems right from the start. First we note that it is partially underground and that the walls above ground are bermed, banked with earth. We also note that it is steel reinforced, flat concrete roof. Yet in the same compound there are two other buildings without the construction. They use simple peaked roofs which are cheaper to construct. Although the partially underground construction can be explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas chamber. Other possible design features include an air-tight door (found 200 feet away), a ventilation system, and either two or four small holes in the roof. The second two are potential in that there exists at the moment exactly one conceptual drawing that is not a blueprint and the blower that drove the ventilation system has not been found so we have only a general idea of its capacity. Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to a gas chamber have always asked, "What else could it be?" when in fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most obvious is a bomb shelter. There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin your whole day. But in addition to structural damage protection there is damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage eardrums. And thus the air-tight door to keep that pressure wave out of the building. Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing creatures. The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know what design features of large scale gas chamber would be. Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the first and only large scale gas chambers in the world. Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial. Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and incorporated such obvious feature that they leap off the page of a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced people. But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual drawing that is an a gas chamber. The clear admission is that they are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want it to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses. And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of another purpose, that of a bomb shelter. Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a morgue in its primary fuction and gained a secondary purpose by the modifications in its construction. Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp. Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed. Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter. * * * * * Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for its lesser number. The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not believe in those methods any longer. Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind. At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony regarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly nor did they have the same release mechanisms. Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them. Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that would have been needed to make them work. For example, the engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron work they are mounted upon the chassis of course. And then where are the batteries to run the starter? And the mounts for the batteries? And the fuel tank and the mounts for the fuel tanks? And then all of this in a specially built building to protect it from the elements. At some point one has to ask why these tanks were not simply backed up to the buildings and used without all of this time consuming and expensive disassembly and reassembly. What we are left with upon even an elementary analysis, meaning I have not gone into all the wiring and gauges and spare parts and the like, we are left with a needlessly complex exercise to claim this was done by tank engines. But there is more to Treblinka than just this. This is the camp of the great burning pits. Ten pits 40 or 50 meters long by 8 meters by 2 or 3 meters deep, stories vary. For those unfamiliar with metric a meter is about 3 1/3 feet. Half a football field long. as wide as the longest dimension of your average two story house and six to ten feet deep. All ten of these pits were used for burning bodies, 2 million bodies in fact. Yet even at only two pounds of bone ash per body and evenly burying it over the 40 acres of Treblinka, there is no sign of the 50 tons of bone ash per acre. That is about 1 lb per square foot and not a sign of it. The evidence for all of this? A claim of having done core samples and having found a few bone fragments, a little bone ash and (inexplicably) human hair after being buried for so many years. That is it. But wait, there is more. Each of these pits was supposed to have a channel that collected the human fat so it could be collected and then poured back over the bodies as fuel for burning them. First ask yourself how you would create an accurate slope over a distance of 150 feet. Second ask yourself why you would bother. If you have ever had any experience with a BBQ you know the problem is keeping the fat from burning. Yet here is clearly a claim of a very serious effort requiring a serious surveying effort to collect fat that would have burning before is ever got to the channel in the middle. And further claims that the fat did not burn the first time around but was required to be reheated and poured in again, but no descriptions of the reheating equipment of course. Further the soil is assumed to have been impervious to fat in that it did not absorb it. The ashes were impervious to fat and did not absorb it. But of course if it did as happens in any BBQ the heat would have evaporated or ignited it. It would not have survived to pool down to one end to be collected. But the eyewitnesses tell this story. It is contrary to not only physical law but common experience. If you have never done the BBQ, take a pan of hot bacon grease and pour it on bare soil and see what happens. Or get a BBQ, fire it up, toss the hamburger into the live coals and see if you have any fat collected in the bottom after it is over. A first order approximation of what is described to have happened is quite easy. So where would these stories be similar in major features? As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would know. "That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if we don't work hard enough or get sick." And why would people tell each other stories like this? I really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost stories around the campfire is such a popular tradtion. I simply know the latter is. But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening features even though they are no more credible than the original stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next embellishes the already embellished previous story. And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the motivation to separate known fact from stories given that sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term starvation and the likliehood of protein deficit psychosis and there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from story. So how could so many die so quickly? Let us turn to "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Soltynitchen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the average life expectancy in them in our post anti-biotic world was seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time. If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the average life expectancy was on the order of four years. Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease. Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported, and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from cholera and dysentary would be at least as bad. Unless the heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards, deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter. Unless food stanards were far better than commonly reported people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a week without rest if they have the least health problems. It is not so much a question of how many died without gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it. If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved? The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish organizations. There is very little impartial secular history on these stories. At this point one can only speculate as to why. The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful. Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening. The "everyone knew" stories are to implicate the average German citizen at the time. The "no one knew" stories are to excuse the behavior of German Jews. But when you look to the believers in the stories of the holocaust, questioning either story and pointing to the consequences of it being true earns the quick response of anti-semite or neo-nazi. As the Jews are clearly the ones preserving these stories, and of course there is a amen corner that makes money off of them for preserving the stories, there is a clearly religious and social nature to them. These stories help define the group identity of Jews. The repetition of these stories has become the same as reading scripture. It is part of a shared identity. The more family one has lost the more Jewish one is. As to the insistance upon gassing, it makes the camps expecte but the gassing unexpected thus a middle ground between a hope for survival and certain doom. Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than reported? Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz, Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz recovering from typhus. And then in retreating from the Russian advance and suffering from typhus she was evacuated to another camp to the west where she died in another infirmary. On one hand we have stories of people being force marched to to the west but in this case we have person who would clearly died from such a march as she was moved from infirmary to infirmary. On one hand we are told that those who were unfit to work and in this case we have hardly more than a child and not a skilled laborer sick with typhus being moved from camp to camp in some form of transportation in what clearly appears to be an effort to save her life. The stories are incongruous. In fact her father survived typhus in another SS infirmary and went on to publish her diary. This is not to claim the SS were nice people but certainly they were not able to select a future famous person for special treatment. Nor am I claiming to know what the conditions in fact were in these camps at all times. I am simply pointing out the diseases that are present in all other circumstances of close living under poor conditions. And the claim is that all that happened in the disease were two major outbreaks of typhus and a few minor ones. This is wholely at odds with what is to be expected under the reported conditions. So what is your interest in all of this? I feel myself involved in the long honored avocation of debunking nonsense. I have done it for years in creationism, religionism, UFOs, Catastrophism, and ritual, satanic child abuse among others. This is the "largest" or most publically challenging I have taken on. In doing so I am using the same I have used on the other subjects. My confrontational approach is the same, my disreguard for personal feelings is the same, my calling them as I see them attitude is the same. And I do note that debunking the foolish beliefs of others is not appreciated when the same methods are applied to one's own cherished beliefs. But the susceptability of such beliefs do not change with either the subject or who holds the belief. Debunking alien abductions and holocaust gassing uses the same methods. The results of the application of those methods are the same.  ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:13 PDT 1996 Article: 35535 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!news1.io.org!news2.interlog.com!news2.toronto.istar.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 2) Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:18:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <4mp7cq$oul@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mi1nm$ljn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mmv9o$c2b@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mo9d9$432@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:19:38 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35535 soc.history:5148 rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4mmv9o$c2b@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>>Question 4 >>>---------- >> >>> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the >>> production of "HCN" from burning atmospheric nitrogen: >> >>> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete >>> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which >>> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but >>> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN >>> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and >>> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if >>> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one >>> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is >>> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds? >>> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so >>> lets wait for his commentary. >> >>> ... >> >>> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia, >>> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - >>> throw the rest away) >> >>> Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how >>> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it. >>> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and >>> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical >>> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that >>> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides. >>> The part that's really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2 >>> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to >>> explain. >> As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the >>flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the >>Kremas. >EVASION ALERT: Mr. Giwer has not answered the question. Deal with those you deceived. Many people claim to have never believed anything I have posted. They believed what you posted. I suspect they will be feeling differently about you than about me. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:14 PDT 1996 Article: 35548 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: My psychic powers have failed! Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:56:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 71 Message-ID: <4mmsbs$atq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lh3c3$i9v@wi.combase.com> <4m8ss0$cgr@access5.digex.net> <4ma0h5$bjf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mh6ma$ked@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:59:08 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4ma0h5$bjf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >> > I have just received a psychic flash. >> >> > I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he >> >has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about >> >"Internet Indirect" in response to Mr. Giwer's posted statement about >> >"Internet Indirect." >> >> > You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future, >> >but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn't come >> >true. >> >> Rather I would suggest that when I posted "indirect" the >> respondant post "direct" as my evidence but then you folks are so >> used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save >> to those who care to find the truth. > Note that Mr. Giwer appears to be insinuating that Gordon McFee posted >something different that what I quoted, and that I changed it. Yet >despite his frequent repetition of the principle that the person making >the claim bears the responsibility for providing proof, Mr. Giwer provides >no proof that this has happened. Even OBC forgot to play the game and posted direct rather than indirect. You folks have to organize your efforts better. But as it is you have already muddied the waters on message traffic enough that even the normal extreme difficult of proving message content has been made an impossible task for any silly threat of a lawsuit. > I offer the following instructions to find the truth, from a source >which as far as I know is completely independent of Nizkor or any poster >here (no, I haven't actually contacted them to check - if Mr. Giwer >claims there is some influence, let him prove it): > 1. Go to http://www.dejanews.com [used to be dejanews.dejanews.com] > 2. Use the "Power search" option to filter for alt.revisionism > and gmcfee@ibm.net. > 3. Set the match option to "Any" > 4. Search for the two strings "internet direct" and "internet > indirect" (be sure to put quotes around both strings). > 5. Observe closely that in every post where Mr. Giwer said > "Internet Direct," Mr. McFee responded "Internet Direct." > In the one post where Mr. Giwer said "Internet Indirect," > Mr. McFee responded with the very same (incorrect) name > "Internet Indirect." > Contrary to Mr. Giwer's insinuation, a neutral archive has no record >of Gordon McFee responding with a correct name to an incorrect one. Then how did OBC manage to do it? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:15 PDT 1996 Article: 35549 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!world1.bawave.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:48:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4mp5hb$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m4h26$jsr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m54d0$ess@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mcduv$e6v@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4MAY199607132194@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mhnrs$p9u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4mo35q$3ni@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:47:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> You are a college kid and complely incapable of judging me. > Watch Giwer-the-not-at-all-omniscient as he posts using the power of >his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Give it up. Learn before you post. > Watch him *try* to think with his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Derek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow! Bunghole. Enough said. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:16 PDT 1996 Article: 35551 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!news.fc.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!lexis-nexis!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:55:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4modar$stf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a0f7c.559191@news.pacificnet.net> <4mjah8$4k4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mjtlt$fd6@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:54:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote: >In article <4mjah8$4k4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> The largest numbers posted were from Leuchter who you people will >>not believe. The parts per billion were from the single data >>point from a recent Polish report. However since it constitutes >>only a single data point it is a useless number. >CLEVER TROLL ALERT: Here Mr. Giwer performs one of his favorite tactics. >He tells a lie to change the topic. If an honest person challenges the >lie, Giwer succeeds in changing the topic. If someone does not >challenge the lie in order to prevent Giwer from changing the topic, he >gets away with telling a lie. >Leuchter's method did not discriminate against metal-cyanide complexes >whose presence he cannot explain. The Crakow Report, which includes >many individual measurements using a calibrated method, on the >otherhand, did discriminate against such complexes. But still produces only a single data point by its failure to distinguish between once and never exposed. It further fails to consider rodent control usage in a morgue and in failing to do so presumes the sinister conclusion. Thus they created an "any amount is proof" situation. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:16 PDT 1996 Article: 35554 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: !THE UNAGIWER MANEFESTO Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:32:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 70 Message-ID: <4mmuep$aht@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <318a2113.5062272@news.pacificnet.net> <4mf0va$p7c@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <318c38ae.37239970@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:34:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On Sat, 04 May 1996 07:25:22 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!Unlike money, good information drives out bad. >It doesnt work that way in this medium as your FLOOD of bad information >across the nets shows. You repeat the lies often enough and the weak of >mind and black of heart suck it up. >!The dissemination of all information needs be unatttacked in any >!venue other than competing information. >Is that why you attacked and brought down my website? The only feather >you have in your cap these days. What a slimey hypocrite you are. I told the truth about your website, that it was libelous. And of course I would never have done such a thing if you had not FIRST initiated such tactics against my previous service providers such as Charlen Kyle and Bill Blomgren and James Kittrel. That is three in a row for you before I went after your website. I will not create a special section of my website dedicated to pointing out your lies. I do not consider that a reasonable use of my file space. And Alec has said he is in the process. And since he appears to be new at it and I am not, he is going to get a lot of free help in improving his about you. >!It is an attempt to use other methods to drive out information, >!good or bad, that are not related to the information itself that >!is the provence of the holohuggers on the grounds that "they have >!done it to" the tribal "us" that makes them an immoral activity. >Yeah, dem awful Jews hey Giwer, it always comes down to that doesnt it? >!It is the initiation of violence in the form of harrassment and >!intimation that separates the holohuggers and the amen corner >!from the civilized population of the world. They are of the >!"scruples are best served with garlic butter" camp. They would >!eat them rather than have them. >JEWS JEWS JEWS! >!It is these animals who are eating their own case alive. >JEWS JEWS JEWS! >You slimeball. >Great manifesto you wrote there pal... Gosh... >JEWS JEWS JEWS... And you refuse to admit that our first run in was over your comments about Jews. Alec remembers. Whacked out Jews if I recall correctly. And your defense was that your (whacked out) wife and children were Jewish. Yes, Dahlmen. You need help. If you can't get it at Charter, get it somewhere. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:17 PDT 1996 Article: 35654 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 2) Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:46:10 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 236 Message-ID: <4mmv9o$c2b@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mi1nm$ljn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:49:12 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35654 soc.history:5152 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >"He who makes a claim bears the responsibility > of supporting it." (Matt Giwer) >Question 1 >---------- > Mr. Giwer, during the course of discussions in February, 1996, > in which you performed some truly amazing mental gymnastics in > a futile attempt to confuse everyone, you made the following > statement: > Perhaps he is in league with the revisionists at Yad Vashem > who reduced the official number from 6 million to a bit over > 3 million. (Giwer, The 4-Million) > In subsequent follow-up articles on the same general topic, > that is, the number of Jewish victims to the Holocaust, you > were repeatedly asked to support this claim with > documentation. You have not, and will not, do this, since > the statement you made is an outright lie; however, for the > record, Mr. Giwer, when will you produce documentation, > from Yad Vashem, in support of your assertion? Please do not be such a fool. You folks will not answer the clear questions addressed to you. When you do I will consider answering all questions address to me. Until then, I will pick and choose as you folks do. >Question 2 >---------- > Also, in February of 1996, you claimed that since the United Nations > did not come into existence until 1945 that reference to the United > Nations could not have occured in 1944: > In August 1944 (fourty FOUR) how could the United Nations have > regarded him as anything when it would not even come into existence > until 15 months later? (Giwer, Re: Jewish Census) > Are you now prepared to retract that question in light of the fact > that you have been presented evidence that term "United Nations" was > used as early as 1942? >Question 3 >---------- > On February 7, 1996 you made the following comment in reference to > the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge: > I was paying attention at the time and not once did I notice any > Jewish group protesting ouside of the Cambodian Embassy and I was > living in the DC area at the time, Fairfax County, Virginia to be > specific. (Giwer, Re: INTERNET FREE SPEECH WEB SITE ! (this > one's not a troll)) > Could you please specify the location of the Cambodian embassy to the > United States at the time of the Khmer Rouge. After you > discover that you are unable to do this, will you instead > explain why you lied? >Question 4 >---------- > On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the > production of "HCN" from burning atmospheric nitrogen: > It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete > combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which > contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but > at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN > as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and > good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if > you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one > of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is > some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds? > Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so > lets wait for his commentary. > ... > Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia, > it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - > throw the rest away) > Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how > burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it. > Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and > NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical > smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that > coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides. > The part that's really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2 > enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to > explain. As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the Kremas. >Question 5 >---------- > You have asserted that eyewitnesses to gassings have noted that > the victims took "tens of minutes" to die, and you claim that > this assertion contradicts your other assertion that Zyklon B > would have killed them more quickly. > > Here is the relevant excerpt from what you wrote: > For a moment there I thought had a way to salvage those stories > that talk about the screaming going on for tens of minutes. > > After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had > passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas > chamber was opened. > > Note the ten to fifteen minutes. (Giwer, Re: the mechanism of > hydrogen cyanide inhalation poisoning) > > Mr. Giwer, does the "ten to fifteen minutes" in the text you > quoted (See URL > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html) > refer to the time that the screaming went on -- i.e. before > the silence -- or does it refer to something else? > > If it refers to something else, do you still stand by your > statement that: > ...I am the only one who has read what people keep saying I > should read. (Ibid.) As you know I have repeatedly reposted the eyewitness testimony you posted claiming death in 15-20 minutes from CO. What is your point in bringing this up until you assert that eyewitness lied? >Question Six >------------ > You have written, of late, the following comments regarding > the number of Holocaust victims: > 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. > and ... > To the Holocaust museum folks the other 6 million are > the footnote. > Daniel Mittleman responded to these comments with the > following: > "Below ... is the Mission Statement of the Holocaust Museum. > (http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/mission.html) > Please note in particular the second paragraph. The reader can > determine for himself whether or not Mr. Giwer's charge that > 'the other six million are a footnote' is accurate: > "Mission Statement > The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's > national institution for the documentation, study, and > interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this > country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during > the Holocaust. > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution > and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its > collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary > victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, > and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for > racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including > homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and > political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and > death under Nazi tyranny." (Mittleman, Both Sides) > Mr. Giwer, please explain why you lied about the United States > Holocaust Memorial Museum's purpose and viewpoint. > Work Cited > Giwer, Matt. UseNet soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship, > February 20, 1996. Subject: "Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million," > Message-ID 4gdil1$a5j@wi.combase.com. Archived with URL: > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296 > -----------. UseNet alt.revisionism, > February 7, 1996. Subject: "Re: Jewish Census" > Message-ID: 4f8rb7$gq5@wi.combase.com Archived with URL: > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296 > -----------. UseNet alt.censorship, alt.revisionism, > alt.politics.white-power, alt.skinhead, > February 21, 1996. Subject: Re: INTERNET FREE SPEECH WEB SITE ! > (this one's not a troll) > Message-ID: 4gec45$lbj@wi.combase.com Archived with URL: > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296 > -----------. UseNet alt.revisionism, > February 22, 1996. Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - > throw the rest away > Message-ID: 4gitqh$1b5@wi.combase.com Archived with URL: > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296 > -----------. UseNet alt.revisionism, February 21, 1996. Subject: > "Re: the mechanism of hydrogen cyanide inhalation poisoning," > Message-ID 4geegb$lbj@wi.combase.com. Archived with URL: > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296 > Mittleman, Daniel. UseNet alt.revisionism, Subject: " > Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust issue," 4 Apr 1996 > Message-ID: 4APR199619582160@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu And? He is a god when you [apparently] run the project, have not qualified to issue your own tax receipts and yet have a charitable organization issuing them for you. I really do smell a scam here. >-- >The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource > Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? > Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) But does not have the ability to issue its own tax receipts but futher denies it is a religious organization. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:18 PDT 1996 Article: 35700 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer proves own stupidity Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:48:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 56 Message-ID: <4mrj38$2lh@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mmqss$75p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mp15o$9t9@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:51:36 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> I am the one who is able to seperate the tax exempt status with >> the power to give out tax deductions to unrelated organizations. > A deduction that ranks with your statements that there were no tape >recorders during WWII and that a statement mentioning the "United Nations: in >WWII had to be a forgery. >> I admit I have no idea what Canada permits. I am simply unaware >> that in the US, for example, an particular charitable >> organization can give out tax deductions for donations to a >> secular organization related to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. > Why not? If qualified as a charitable organization, a site related to Pearl Harbor is not a needy thing as it is a voluntary and unnecessary expense. If nothing else you might at least agree that while a person can be in need of charity, a thing can not. On the other hand, if the synagogue has this power under an historic or public education exemption then it could operate the Nizkor site and accept donations for it. However, it could not accept donations for a separate organization. Each organization has to separately deal with the IRS. The ultimate beneficiary of the donation is the only one that can give out the receipt for that donation. Otherwise, for example, churches could use their ability to accept donations without dollar limit on behalf of politicians who do have dollar limits. >> Were I to hear of such a thing my first thought would be that it >> is a scam. I would certainly report it. > That is the difference between a reasonable person and you. A >reasonable person would have found out what the U.S. tax code provides. You >still have not done so. Then why does the discussion keep going back to non-profit status when the subject is tax deductable contributions? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:19 PDT 1996 Article: 35702 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:54:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <4mrfui$pek@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <831298558snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4mljos$2er@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4mn7fl$q55@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4movo1$4g9@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 7:57:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >: >: >Alexander Baron writes: >: >>A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip >: >>Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions - >: >>Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been >: >>given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible. >: >: > So when were UFO pilots tried and found guilty of abductions? There >: >is *significantly more* evidence for the Holocaust happening than UFO >: >abductions. Look to Nizkor for references. >: >: One was tried on a Babylon 5 episode but the verdict was not >: shown. >: >: Beyond that there hardly more evidence than was presente on the >: episode for gassing. >: >: But then I have been advised that "look to Nizkor" is >: unacceptable without the specific URLs attached. >: >: Rest assured that you will not be so advised. >Let me guess -- that would be because he's not referring to anything >specific, el Dorko. How can he point to a URL for that. Do you want him >to list all the URLs for that? Why do you believe he is incapable of answering for himself? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu May 9 21:18:19 PDT 1996 Article: 35711 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 19:17:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 64 Message-ID: <4mtgiv$2lr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4loi5c$7jp@hackberry.zilker.net> <3180CCB6.5994@nt.com> <4m01vc$sc9@boris.eden.com> <3184D28D.62E3@nt.com> <4mkfd1$2ai@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <318E09A0.70A6@nt.com> <4mn6na$q55@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3190A273.C6@nt.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 2:21:03 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> One of the minor points I have been trying to establish here is >> simply what you have said, that eyewitness testimony is not >> reliable. >My father was there and interviewed many survivors. The gassing was >real. >My neighbour was in the camps. Several of my parents' friends were in >the camps. They are and were reliable. The gassings were real. >The testimony posted here is extremely accurate. The gassings took >place. The problem is that according to what has been posted here so far what he would have seen would only have been these small ones for those no longer to work in the camps the west liberated. That is hardly the thrust of the current phase of these discussions. >> I can get back to the emotional problem of gassing being more >> merciful than being worked to death later. That is simply one of >> the many contradictions in the many true stories I am going >> after. >A criminal who wants to make sure that his victim is dead doesn't care >about mercy, just kill the victim. It had nothing to do with mercy - >just killing. Eastwood's character said it well for today's atheist world. Looking back over even recent history, not to mention what we know from recorded history, I find people have always done this terrible thing to each other as a matter of basic human nature. I find it terribly difficult to single out any particular one of them for special consideration or condemnation. Therefore I have great difficulty with people who have a "they were all terrible but this one was really, really terrible" attitude. I do not understand them. I would prefer to have nothing in common with them. Have others not suffered? Have others not lost families? Are time and distance and otherness to dull the sensibilities? Are we continue to build memorials and conduct ceremonies to this attitude? And yet it is this attitude that perpetuates exactly the cycle that it purports to end. We are seeing the results of the "we're special" attitude coming out of Bosnia right now. Let the attitude die. None are special. All suffer equally. Get on with living. Stop focussing on the past. Stop keeping hate alive. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:45 PDT 1996 Article: 35713 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:35:09 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 365 Message-ID: <4mtktf$s8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <4m6mu6$qku@news.nyu.edu> <4m97d7$hr8@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 3:34:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4m97d7$hr8@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> According to a USA Today poll earlier this year there was some >> huge percentage of the people in the US reported believing they >> had been abducted at some time in the lives, something like 10%. >> That is a rather larger number than "hundreds." >One might wonder who sponsored and interpreted the results of this poll? It is sort of surprising that you did not demand the date and page number and then when I can't provide it, claim that I am making it up. Or are you getting tired of that ploy? >And what about the significance, if any, of it? What critical thought was >applied to determine its validity, what conclusions, if any, can be wrung >from it? Furthermore, how was this "something like 10%" of alien >"abductees" determined? Where they specifically asked? Did they volunteer >the information? Is this poll yet another example of "lies, dammed lies, >and statistics?" Or in this case, perhaps sensationalism and >charlantanism? To whit: >From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 64-66: It is also surprising for such a stickler on credentials that you would cite a man with a doctorate in planetary atmospheres. >"* For example, the September 4. 1994 _Publishers Weekly_: 'According to a >Gallup [sic] poll, more than three million Americans believe they have >been abducted by aliens.' But if you will accept this one, it is certainly more than hundreds. >> And in fact they are quite connected with each other, all >> offering generally the same description of the aliens and what >> happens to them, differing mainly in details as to how they go >> into and out of the UFO. >> >> And, unless you believe them, the clear reason why they have such >> similar stories is all the publicity. In this regard the "greys" >> are the responsibility of the artists conception of the aliens >> Betty and Barney Hill and was used as the cover for Incident at >> Exeter. Since then that has been the dominant description of the >> bad guy aliens. >> >> Another means of spreading the same story are the literally >> hundreds of support groups for "abductees" around the country. >> Stories are shared. >This of course could be said to explain the simlarities between them. Of >course, Giwer's implication here is that Holocaust survivors who seek >support groups also "share" their stories, and thus that is why they all >describe the "same" horrors of life in Nazi death camps. Rather I would suggest they spent months to years share camp rumors about "what is really happening over there." Certainly a more compelling experience than support groups. (Discounting, of >course, that people all subjected to the same kinds of horrors would, in >fact, have the same kinds of stories!) But ARE the sories of alien >"abductees" the same? Have they, like the stories of Holocaust survivors >STAYED basically the same over the years? Arguably, if they did then a >comparison between such support groups would seem more relevant. >Conversely, if in fact, the stories of alien "abuctees" changed over time, >while those of Holocaust survivors stayed pretty much the same, would seem >to indicate that no serious, or at least obvious, behavioral comparisons >could be drawn between them. To whit: In the UFO cases we have on-going "revelations" and claims and a progressing series of events. In the holocaust case we have a one time event. One would expect it to become fixed rather quickly such as the electrocution and steaming and suffocations disappearing rapidly. >> There are in fact relatively few cases that have come directly >> from the Freudian couch. One of the most famous abductee finders >> of all is not involved in the profession. Rather he is extremely >> good (and gullible) at implanting false memories. There has a >> documentary on this subject that I have seen twice but for the >> life of me can not remember names. >Here now, is a more serious issue: One specifically being of just how >_reliable_ IS one's memory; how vulnerable ARE people, especially under >therapy to "recover" allegedly "suppressed" memories, to false memories? >As it turns out, it appears quite a bit. To whit: And in these cases we have "I might once have thought, but it must have been from the constant repetition of the fixed version of the same story. After enough time, one might no longer remember what one once believed. >Now, in some respects, here's an issue germane to the accounts of >Holocaust survivors. First, I would argue, we can toss out the issue of >"recovered" memories, as Holocaust survivors seem to have the exact >opposite problem- they can't seem to supress their memories of the death >camps as they are too traumatic and emotional. (Of course, for any >survivor testimony that _was_ "recovered" because it was repressed I would >in general suggest, unless compelling evidence shows they were indeed the >survivor's own memories, that their accounts not be used.) But the general nature of the holocaust has been specified. We are talking about "those buildings over there." Perhaps it was the only way to keep sane, to talk constantly about those who had it worse. >This, basically, puts Holocaust survivor testimony in a completely >different catagory from that of alien "abductee" accounts. The two are >simply not comparable. That, of course, would also allow us to dismiss >Giwer's allusion that the two actually are comparable. One does not >compare apples and oranges, so to speak, and expect to derive meaningful >results. (More on this below.) But on the other hand you have cited those who remembered spontaniously and they interject that the aliens caused the loss of memory as the explanation. Leaving them not particularly incomparable due to the "alien" intervention. Taking as a given that they were in fact not subjected to a traumatic experience there would be nothing for them to remember immediately. To hold them truly incomparable we would have to hold that they were in fact abducted. >There is, however, the issue of being fed false information to influence >one's reccollection of events that is germane to survivor testimony. How >can one know if such has been done? What safegaurds can be used to detect >or counter for it? Not being a phychologist, I have no good answer. Aside >from having trained professionals qualified to evaluate such testimony do >so, all I can suggest is that it seems reasonable that a large enough >number of such testimonies be taken as soon as possible and then weighed >against each other. There should hopefully be a clear general pattern to >them that should elicit the truth and hopefully overcome any systemic >biases on the part of those who give and take the testimonies. And this again neglects the camp rumor aspect of the stories. >Then, of course, I would imagine that corrobarating the testimonies with >other physical and documetary evidence, as well as analysis that does not >rely on testimonies, would also be a powerfull tool in overcoming any >defects in survivor testimonies. Fortunately, this is exactly what appears >to have been done by historians and Holocaust researchers. That should be the case but it is not. Rather from the written evidence on use of the word gassing is raised above all other written evidence without the slightest inquiry as to why this one person in one letter happened to use that word in while ignoring the mounds of other documents by other people with no mention of it. The physical evidence is similar. It is searched and sifted until minor aspects of it can be interperated to support the testimony. >[snip] >> Of course these people have generally experienced some traumatic >> event in their lives or have been general losers looking for an >> excuse. >Aside from making the unsupported assertion that alien "abductees" (and by >implication Holocaust survivors) are "general losers," If you do not consider being in a camp losing... Giwer makes a leap >of "faith" in implying that accounts of alien "abductions" are, from a >psychological perspective, the same as accounts of survivors that >described their experiances in the Holocaust. >Specifically, Giwer tries to equate some allegedly traumatic experiance of >alien "abduction" that has been _supressed_, often for many years, and >then "recovered" by therapy- with arguably dubious methods -to the >_unsupressed_ memories of life in the Nazi death camps. In fact, for his >argument to even pretend to hold water, he must de facto presume that >survivors' memories of their traumatic experiance are _supressed_. That >such traumatic experiances would by neccessity be _suppressed_ as they >alledgedly are in alien "abductions" and that these memories are only >brought to conscious inspection some time later. Much as are memories of >child abuse, real or imagined (or alien "abductions"), are. To whit: The reference of course was to so many who now recount stories that are in sync with what has been published. I think you would agree that being in a camp was traumatic. >From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 156-157: >"Instances in which the 'memory' suddenly surfaces, especially at the >ministrations of a psychotherepist or hypnotist, and where the first >'recollections' have a ghost- or dreamlike quality are highly >questionable. Many such claims of sexual abuse appear to be invented.... >"Survivors of the Nazi death camps provide the clearest imaginable >demonstration that even the most monstrous abuse can be carried >continously in human memory. Indeed, the problem for many Holocaust >survivors has been to put emotional distance between themselves and the >death camps, to forget. But in some alternative world of inexpressible >evil they were forced to _live_ in Nazi Germany- let's say a thriving >post-Hitler nation with its ideology intact, except that it's changed its >mind about anti-Semitism -imagine the psychological burden on the >Holocaust survivors then. Then perhaps they _would_ be able to forget, >becuase remembering would make their current lives unbearable. Ifthere is >such a thing as the repression and subsequent recall of ghastly memories, >then perhaps it requires two conditions: (1) that the abuse actually >happened, and (2) that the victim was required to pretend for long perods >of time that it never happened. >Clearly, no such conditions exist, even if wholly supressing such horrid >memories by survivor witnesses were possible. Survivors' memories of the >Nazi death camps cannot be said to have been supressed en masse and later >recovered, such as is the case for alien "abductees." There is simply no >sustainable and credible evidence for it. There can then be no equality >between survivor's memories and the alleged "recovered memories" of alien >"abductees." Giwer's "argument" that they do rests on false premises and >is therfore invalid. Yet I have been told personal stories of neighbors who would not talk for years about the subject. I have been told a story of one who suffered from sleeping problems and such for many years and under hypnonsis remembered being a sonderkommando. So there are parallels. It was my intent to address as many variations as possible in a rather short and extemporaneous discussion of the subject. >> So we see, at least in the former case, the traumatic experience >> of camp life and certainly not in a position to separate reality >> from camp rumor. >Aside from the fact that Giwer's assertion about survivor testimony (see above) >is based on false premises, and therefore invalid, he also makes an >additional series of mistakes that render his conclusion useless: >First, Giwer begs the question in that he de facto presumes the prisoners' >traumatic experiances render them unable deal with reality. He has offered >no evidence that indicates they couldn't. I can offer that rumor control in US prisons, less traumatic, is a concern for prison authorities as rumors become truths within a prison population. I can offer that the military takes special efforts to get information out as simply close living in a non-traumatic situation breeds rumors that become truths. >Second, this in turn evidences post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning. >Simply because survivors recount "camp rumors" does not mean they could >not discriminate them from reality because of their traumatic experiances. >Case in point is the "Jewish soap" rumor. Prisoners were often taunted by >the Nazis that soap given to the prisoners was made from Jews, while in >reality- and unbeknownst to the prisoners at the time -there was no >factual evidence it was. As in the last. >Third, Giwer exercises observational selection. He focuses on the >survivors relating "camp rumors" (i.e. hearsay) as the basis for his >implied invalidity of their testimony and ignores the fact that survivors, >"camp rumors" aside, personally _witnessed_ and/or _experianced_ many of >the Nazi atrocities perpetrated. I used it to address the consistancy of the stories which was implied to be unexplainable. This is most clear in the stories of what happened in the buildings over there rather than what was clearly confirmed by the evidence of the physical condition of the survivors. And again you attempt to put everything into the same category, both starvation and gassing. This is what I have carefully kept separate. >In all, a very poor demonstration of critical thinking. And a failure on your part to separate starvation, disease and gassing. >> We see people hanging together afterwards >> (support groups) to come to terms with the experience and get on >> with life afterwards. We also had a large amount of media >> publicity where common details were widely circulated but with >> newspaper accuracy and thoroughness. >Again, Giwer continues making mistakes that invalidate his conclusions: >He begs the question by the de facto presumption that "hanging together >afterwards" somehow invalidates survivor testimony. This was presumed on >the false comparison to alien "abductees'" use of support groups. (See >above.) There were not synagogues? There were not Jewish neighbors? That I use a modern term as a reference does not mean that such things have not always existed in some form or other. >He makes a non sequitar with his: "[w]e also had a large amount of media >publicity where common details were widely circulated but with newspaper >accuracy and thoroughness." Meaningless gibberish. Simply because >(alledgedly) "common details" of survivor testimony have been (alledgedly) >"widely published" it does not follow that because they were so published >with "newspaper accuracy and thoroughness" that this somehow invalidates >them. One might expect, for instance, that any survivor account published >have "newspaper accuracy and thoroughness!" Or that survivor testimony >might share "common details" like accounts of typhus epidemics, >descriptions of sleeping six to a bunk, decriptions of atrocities, etc. >simply because this was the environment _common_ to prisoners at the death >camps. More so when it involves survivor testimonies from survivors from >the _same_ death camp. None of these points have been under contention. It has always been the buildings over there stories. You continue to fail to discriminate between the two. >> So the similarities are in fact quite numerous. It is not >> unlikely in the least that they people would have many false >> memories. >Here Giwer makes an appeal to ignorance- the claim that what ever has not >been proved false must be true (or visa versa) -by asserting that >"similarities" (another false assertion in itself) means that the >survivors have false memories of their experiances in the death camps. It >is a factually baseless assertion that is without merit. It is the vice versa I have been referring to, that what is asserted must support the evidence else showing that similarities with abductions is an alternate explanation. I have already stipulated factual evidence for what you cite but appear to be attempting to lump into gassing. >> >: The Holocaust story relies on physical evidence, such as a >> >: door from a gas chamber, some brick ovens in a Holocaust museum, a >> >: pile of shoes or an empty can of Zyklon B. >> >> >: UFO stories pose physical evidence also, like a wound someone >> >: says they got from a ordeal encounter with aliens' a piece of metal >> >: said to come from a UFO crash and even the Great Pyramides of Egypt. >> >> >Do you understand evidentiary rules, Li'l Tommy? If you don't see the >> >difference between the records, the gas chambers, the camps, the piles of >> >belongings, the corpses; and on the other hamnd some yokel claiming a >> >pyramid is a UFO product -- well ,that explains your reasoning here. >> >> But of course the subject is these gassing stories only. >And of course, here Giwer ends with argumentum ad hominem, as he cannot >attack the argument and must therefore settle for attacking the arguer. I have a single line that is not even an argument following a "Lil Tommy" paragraph. >In conclusion, about the only thing Giwer has thouroughly demonstrated in >his post is very, very poor critical thinking. His arguments, as well as >his conclusions, as I have hopefully demonstrated, are meritless and >should be dismissed. All you have done is charge off on a tangent supporting what has been stipulated as supported by factual evidence and then imply that gassing is in the same category. Would you like to try again by addressing the subject? Or will you lapse back into ridicule? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:46 PDT 1996 Article: 35729 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 22:49:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4mtst9$6iv@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mmvsd$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199615590142@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 5:51:21 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: >In article <4mmvsd$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >>>In article <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>>> Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious >>>>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a >>>>secular event. >> >>> If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard >>>why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this >>>possible violation of the law? If they act to change the situation, then >>>they will thank you. If they do not act, then it will become clear that a >>>religious organization can do this. >> >> This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver >>beavers. I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the >>problem. > So, basically, your whimper is worse than your bite. If you have been paying attention, my comments have been regarding ACCEPTING the claim that Nizkor is not connected to the synagogue. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:46 PDT 1996 Article: 35730 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Giwer pronounces on pedophelia Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 23:41:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <4mu02d$7ns@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m7alt$2ca@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m90eb$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu> <4mbmb2$shn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mh9ed$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mij32$u9s@news.nyu.edu> <4mmsre$atq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 6:45:17 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19457 alt.discrimination:46646 alt.revisionism:35730 alt.skinheads:22421 can.politics:43645 schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote: >In article <4mmsre$atq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >> >> >And you're getting emotional, Mr. Giwer......or are you really claiming >> >that Mr. McVay is worse than the scumbags who use the Internet to pick up >> >and molest children? >> >> I have made a simple statement of fact. And yes, worse than >> those as they at least have a rather strange sex orientation that >> sets them apart. This kind of thing is deliberate. >Pedophelia is not deliberate? What an interesting set of morals and mores >Mr. Giwer must have. There is no indication it is any different from any other orientation. Of course abstinence is always an options for everyone. >I must admit, I have never heard pedophelia referred to as a "strange sex >orientation." We have all the indications of multiple offenders, years of the practice in full knowledge of society's attitude even towards those acqutted, their drastically reduced life expectancy in prison. It is like saying 50 years ago, "You don't have to be gay." >But then, I don't have a 163 IQ. Back where I come from, people who attack >children are violent offenders. People who rape children are rapists AND >violent offenders. Absolutely correct and they continue to do it. They are not a recent fad. They have been around in society as far back as we care to look. So have those who like animals but without as much approprium or criminal penalties but for the life of me I can't find the violence or victim in such behavior. There is another entire class of orientations that is benignly labeled as kinky. >Perhaps Ken is right. We need a Giwerese dictionary to keep track of all >of these "new-fangled" definitions. The question is which behaviors society chooses to punish and in what fashion. It has only been in the last few years that this "crime of violence" concept has been introduced yet were that to be a true change the penalties for rape would certainly have to be rethought in terms of the physical harm inflicted OR all criminal penalties rethought in terms of the psychological harm inflicted. ----- It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather the miracle that so many survived with gassing. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:47 PDT 1996 Article: 35731 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor lies alert Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:47:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4mca6u$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lj9dj$74a@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4lsqa5$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mbcc0$2vtc@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:47:58 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article <4lsqa5$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) said: >>>Mr. Giwer is now resorting to spamming alt.revisionism. I suggest that >>>readers who wish to discourage his behaviour e-mail him a copy of his >>>own spam. Don't forget to cc root@combase.com. >> What kind of asshole would encourage harrassing my ex-provider? >> What kind of asshole would save a holohugger would encourage any kind of >>harrassement? >> You holohoggers are all alike. You intend to harrass anyone who >>disagrees with you and you call for an effort shut down any disagreement. >> You are all to be despised for your tactics as the very >>antithesis of libertarian princicples. >> You are all to be despised for your lack of condemnation of >>others who have used your tactics. >This from the person who has spent so much time harassing members of this >newsgroup. This from the person who posted the entire Wannsee document 15 >times. This from the person who forged a hate-letter to his own son. What >rubbish. Holohuggers are all alike. They lie, they distort, they do worse than they claim is done to them and then claim righteousness for not doing such things. Yet McFly and Dahlman are documented as doing such things. And they claim to be such righteous people in their iniquity. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:48 PDT 1996 Article: 35739 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:29:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <4mr7g2$rto@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <318318CB.22C8@kaiwan.com> <4m3u9p$8to@news.enter.net> <31865c54.3304146@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4meck2$ihb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:33:38 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4meck2$ihb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> I read only hearsay at best even if it was under oath. >GIWER-TROLL ALERT: Who really CARES what Giwer reads? Not I. The fact is >if Dr. Larson where to have been called to testify at the IMT (I don't >think he was.) His testimony would have compelling as he was an expert >witness. He talks about a process he could not have witnessed unless he was in the camp when it was in operation. He doesn't even couch it as "I was told that ..." words. >> Where do you see evidence? >GIWER-TROLL ALERT: Who really CARES what Giwer sees? Not I. The fact is if >Dr. Larson where to have been called to testify at the IMT (I don't think >he was.) His testimony would have compelling as he was an expert witness. Where do you see evidence was the question. And regardless of what kind of witness he was, it is still hearsay. It is no different that a prosecution witness reciting a detailed of the murders as though he had witnessed OJ committing them. >> Where are his pathology reports? >REALITY CHECK: Giwer is obviously ignorant that his reports where filed >with the U.S. Army Medical Corps. If you know that you know the contents. Do you have a Nizkor link to them? >> They would be admissable as evidence. >Of course they would have been. Do you have the link? When did you read some representative ones? Care to recite their contents? >> Or particular interest will be how he determined cyanide poisoning from ashes. >GIWER LYING_THROUGH_HIS TEETH ALERT: Only an egotistical idiot like Giwer >would try to pawn such a purile lie off as this. Dr. Larson, by his >statement: "...in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I >personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner" clealrly >intimates that he personally examined CORPSES and NOT ashes to arrive at >his conclusion that they were gassed. And upon what basis did he form that opinion? ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:49 PDT 1996 Article: 35743 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:43:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4mr84l$9th@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4krjsq$ca1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <318aa923.7246284@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:44:37 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35743 soc.culture.jewish:48903 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19463 soc.culture.israel:32951 jakel@eos.bony.com (Jake Livni) wrote: >In article , Jake Livni wrote: >>Actually, such claims are HIGHLIGHTED in the press. When accused of >>double standards, the press responds that they hold Israel to a higher >>standard than Israel and so focus on such reports (even when unfounded). > ^^^^^^ >Correction: >When accused of >double standards, the press responds that they hold Israel to a higher >standard than THE ARABS and so focus on such reports (even when unfounded). > ^^^^^^^^^ In this case, Israel is the occupying nation. It is no different than holding the Soviet Union to a higher standard than the Afghans a few years ago. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:49 PDT 1996 Article: 35750 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: the gang of six Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:46:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4mbe0a$883@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4l177k$hs5@wi.combase.com> <4lolvn$7ck@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m6ib0$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <1MAY199618042242@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 5:46:34 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: >In article <4m6ib0$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> >>>## Liar. You were presented with a document that explicitly >>>## states that Jews considered "unfit for work" will be killed >>>## with poison gas. >> >>># I was given the Wannsee Protocol. >> >>>I'm talking about the Wetzel-Lohse letter. >> >> And I am talking about what I was given as evidence. > No, Giwer. Your responsibility does not end with evidence handed to > you on a silver platter in this conference. Your responsibility > extends to all of the evidence that exists. If you offer an > alternative hypothesis here, it must be the best explanation of the > entire historical record, not merely the subset of the historical > record recently posted to a.r. > Do you undertand what an alternative hypothesis is? Something you folks will never exist as even a remote possibility. And the strangest one I have ever posted was that the Wannsee Protocol was in fact the plan. I am quite the "revisionist" for suggesting that. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:50 PDT 1996 Article: 35757 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white Subject: Re: Message for Hitler's birthday - zgram960420 Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:54:04 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4mbhqn$jt7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <199604240732.AAA22450@infinity.c2.org> <4llh1r$mtl@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4lqaco$b0h@news.ios.com> <4m38c0$2ql@shiva.usa.net> <4m42va$5t8@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m8vfm$hfk@shiva.usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 6:51:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:984 alt.revisionism:35757 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19470 hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >In article <4lqaco$b0h@news.ios.com>, >Dave (abh@npl.com) whined: > Incase you missed it. The Soviets killed far more people than > did the Nazis. >I responded: > In case Mr. Dave missed it, no one disputes the murders > of the Soviets! >In article <4m42va$5t8@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) proves that ignorance is the >cornerstone of his input: > If the claim were that it had been done by many different and > mutually conflicting means of execution... >Does Mr. Giwer really believe that all of those Soviet murders were >carried out by a single means of execution? As everyone except Mr. >Giwer knows, Soviet victims were starved to death, deported to gulags, >shot by firing squads, and incarcerated in mental health institutions. >I guess that would make them a fiction in Mr. Giwer's book, but then >again, I expect Mr. Giwer would refute even the Soviet murders if he >thought that there was a group of the victims' relatives on the >internet waiting to take offense! Of course there was more to what I said than what you left. --------------------------------------------------------------- Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website. http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/ Commentary from the right side of the curve Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs) http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising) http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:51 PDT 1996 Article: 35760 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics Subject: Re: Les Griswold's Parliamentary appearance Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:01:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 32 Message-ID: <4mrgb5$pek@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mcdgq$qdr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mibef$srp@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5MAY199618532263@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mkq7a$3oh@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4ml5bq$fn3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4mogi6$n1o@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mqfpe$7nf@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:04:37 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.discrimination:46655 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19473 alt.revisionism:35760 alt.skinheads:22446 can.politics:43683 Laura Finsten wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >[edit] >> Were causing death by infecting people people with a fatal >>disease a crime there would be an rather outrageously high murder >>rate among gays by gays. Certainly these rare beatings would >>pale in comparison. If I remember correctly, the US has had some >>40,000 such murders so far this year. >Trolling for an argument, Mr. Giwer, or does a man with so much >"life experience" and such a whiz-bang science background actually >believe the old saws about AIDS being a "gay" disease, and think >that the "immoral unequivalency" somehow makes it OK for people >to beat the living daylights out of men for no reason other than >their sexual orientation? >I'm not interested in discussing these issues at all, and most >certainly not with you. I suggest you try a more appropriate >newsgroup to see if you can the sort of rise that feeds your >demented self. I would suggest you go to the CDC site and read the HIV surveillance reports before you discuss it with anyone. ----- It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather the miracle that so many survived with gassing. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:52 PDT 1996 Article: 35772 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:56:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4mrg2o$pek@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <317b1767.6029655@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4lrrd9$nu@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4lu8jg$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3js7$pl@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4maeih$2nc@hackberry.zilker.net> <4mbpgp$r9c@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mg0fv$gkt@boris.eden.com> <4mm6ua$n2u@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mqhcf$l8u@hackberry.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:00:08 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> It is in this same thread. How are you missing it? I have just >>responded to two messages containing the information. That means >>there are at least four current posts with the information you >>are requesting. >Not everyone's service is efficient as yours. If you truly have a >point to make then you won't mind cutting and pasting your proof. So I >could be missing it because I having seen it. You can find it yourself at Nizkor. Their feed is perfect and uncensored. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:53 PDT 1996 Article: 35778 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:40:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4mu6td$cni@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <317b1767.6029655@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4lrrd9$nu@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4lu8jg$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3js7$pl@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4maeih$2nc@hackberry.zilker.net> <4mbpgp$r9c@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mg0fv$gkt@boris.eden.com> <319175a1.32955113@news.srv.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 8:42:05 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: >On Sat, 04 May 1996 16:26:44 GMT, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) >wrote: >>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >[snip] >>> And you also will remember the long holohugger post saying that >>>this color could only occur as the third valence state of iron >>>meaning the wall was made of iron. That is quite an interesting >>>construction technique. >> >>Please quote the post and references making this claim. I'm also not a >>chemist so I need references to this. Chemistry was long ago in 1973. >> >>You will note that I doubt your statements, but I'm asking for data. >>I'm also NOT calling you an idiot. >Mr. Curtis, you may wish to advise Mr. Giwer that iron is a common >element in bricks. It is hardly a surprise that Prussian Blue should >be formed when bricks come into contact with HCN. >No doubt Mr. Giwer knows that fact already, but it is useful fodder >for a troll, I suppose. You might wish to tell the person who posted the description of the walls as plaster coated brick about the brick problem. You might also wish to take a look at the picture and notice there is no sign of brickwork. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:54 PDT 1996 Article: 35780 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: - Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:38:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4mu6ph$cni@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <317b1767.6029655@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4lrrd9$nu@dfw-ixne <4mjc5p$7d4@news.nyu.edu> <4mn8qn$8la@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mtcve$pol@hackberry.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 8:40:01 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote: >>In article <4mn8qn$8la@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >>(Matt Giwer) wrote: >>> jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >>> >>> >Get real, Giwer. Even after the repeated postings about the concrete >>> >walls, even after the postings about the difference between "valence >>> >state" and a wall made of iron, you still babble on. >>> >>> Actually they were about plaster on brick. And the others >>> demonstarted the plaster can not form blue. >> >>Could someone please parse these sentences? >> >>Beyond the fact that I don't know what "demonstarted" means, I cannot for >>the life of me fathom what this Giwerese statement MEANS. Specifically, >>I'm concerned about "the plaster can not form blue." What does this MEAN? >MAYBE, he is trying to say that Prussian Blue wouldn't make the walls >blue if it was used in the pictured room. Unfortunately for him the >walls are blue. So it doesn't matter much what he thinks they can and >cannot do. So they were painted. You presume the coloration comes from a chemical reaction with HCN which only comes from a reaction with iron. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:55 PDT 1996 Article: 35782 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:55:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4mu4d4$1fv@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> References: <4mlkog$bfh@moe.cc.emory.edu> <3191d3e6.6509488@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 7:59:16 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote: >On 07 May 96 06:14:22 , alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote and is >answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite: >!As I said - I'm not interested in your political aspirations. >!++GMAIL 1.3++ And one day, Atlas Shrugged >!-- >I claim you are a little hate the government libertarian wonk. You >scream I'm lying and that you are a LIBERAL, which is about one the most >absurd things you have ever said. :) >Change the tagline pal. :) Those who love government, love any government. Those who trust government, trust any government. Those who defend government, defend any government. But claim the ability to overcome love and trust in an instant should they determine it to the wrong sort of government. But history has shown they never notice the difference when the changes are slow enough for them to get used to. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:56 PDT 1996 Article: 35793 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: JEWS and WANNSEE Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:42:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4mc9ui$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4lca7i$12k$2@mhafn.production.compuserve.com> <4ld06t$tde@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4lesl9$2obm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4ls3oo$rid@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mbcbl$2tcu@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:43:30 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >In article <4ls3oo$rid@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) said: >>>>>One of their past accomplishments >>>>>has been their ability to convince the populace that the Jewish >>>>>interpretations of Nazi Germany, >>>>>WW2 and pertinent "incriminating" documents are accurate ones. >>>>>How? They manuvered >>>>>themselves into a postion of power to do this. When you hold the >>>>>trump card, you contol the game. >>>>And the arrogance with which they push their power to the brink of one's >>>>sanity is reason enough for holocaust II, the sequel. >>>I love the way these little anonymous cowards sit behind their keyboards, >>>spewing out this rubbish with one hand and picking their nose with the >>>other. >> Is that anything like making calls on the company phone and >>clearing your nose into it? >Perhaps the Giwer-troll could tell us. The rest of us don't engage in such >juvenile activity. McFly of course. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:56 PDT 1996 Article: 35796 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: The gay disease (was: Les Griswold's Parliamentary appearance) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:38:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 67 Message-ID: <4mudv1$klc@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4mcdgq$qdr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mibef$srp@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5MAY199618532263@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mkq7a$3oh@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4ml5bq$fn3@ <4mt48l$tl8@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 10:42:25 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19488 alt.discrimination:46660 alt.revisionism:35796 alt.skinheads:22465 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >: informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4mogi6$n1o@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> >: <4mqfpe$7nf@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> >: <4msfkv$ks1@freenet-news.carleton.ca> >Distribution: >Les Griswold (bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote: >: Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes: >: > mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >: > >: > [edit] >: > >: >> Were causing death by infecting people people with a fatal >: >>disease a crime there would be an rather outrageously high murder >: >>rate among gays by gays. Certainly these rare beatings would >: >>pale in comparison. If I remember correctly, the US has had some >: >>40,000 such murders so far this year. >Mmmm-hmmmmm. And should the US have prosecuted people who infected others >with Polio, Typhus, and the like? >I can just see it -- during the Middle Ages, a prosecution in Europe for >"spreading the Plague." BWAH-HAH-HAH!!!!!! >AIDS is a disease, moron. No more, no less. You would compare air or contact borne to a deliberate action? An action quite often documented to be deliberate by nondisclosure and lying when asked? That is deliberate murder in the book of anyone who is not politically correct. But of course we can not violate the civil rights of the living to save lives any longer. Quarantine is such a violation. As they are going to die anyway, life in prison is clearly a joke and cruel and unusual prohibits the only appropriate punishment, witholding all medical treatment. >: > Trolling for an argument, Mr. Giwer, or does a man with so much >: > "life experience" and such a whiz-bang science background actually >: > believe the old saws about AIDS being a "gay" disease, and think >: > that the "immoral unequivalency" somehow makes it OK for people >: > to beat the living daylights out of men for no reason other than >: > their sexual orientation? >: >: Non sequitur, Fester. Like it or not, AIDS LARGELY affects homos. >: Stating the TRUTH about the population most at risk of catching this >: disease does NOT equate with calling it a "gay" disease. Get your head >: out of your arse. >So in the parts of the world, where the hetrosexual AIDS rate has >outstripped the gay AIDS rate, should we know call AIDS the "heterosexual >disease"? Only the rate of increase, not the abolute numbers, of IV drug using heteros as done so. There is another fast rising group, hetero females but only if their partners are bisexual or IV drug users. So in fact, if IV drugs are as deadly as said the only victims are the women. The drugs are going to kill the men anyway. ----- It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather the miracle that so many survived with gassing. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:57 PDT 1996 Article: 35798 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:34:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4mua27$r4s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <3190b679.6485544@news.pacificnet.net> <319143bf.1283926@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 9:35:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: >[The testimony of Hans Stark about how he gassed people with > Zyklon-B in "Krema I"] ># Oh, yea. This is the guy from the registrars office. The ># bookkeeper. >If you would have bothered to read a little about Auschwitz, >you'd know that Stark did many things but for "bookkeeping". >But you're a "revisionist scholar", are you not? ># Grabner went over to get him to pour in the pellets ># because one of the regular guys didn't show up. >Actually, he was present at the gassing. Grabner didn't go >over and fetch him. ># Don't you find it peculiar you don't have any detailed ># accounts, professor? >This account and others are pretty detailed. If you have any >proof that Stark lied, let's see it. If not, stop wasting >our time with your lame-brained jokes. I was rather thinking of putting him through "Gentile test." First you folks prove he ever existed. Then prove he was at the camp. Then prove he is telling the truth. It is the least you can do. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:58 PDT 1996 Article: 35803 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: News FLASH Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:22:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 10 Message-ID: <4muctl$l2u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 10:24:37 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Thirty eight Hizbollah commandos penetrate to downtown Tel-Aviv. Shelling intensifies. ------------------- alt.revisionism 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. What kind of truth is it that needs protection? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri May 10 06:53:59 PDT 1996 Article: 35804 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Q&A revised Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:25:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 470 Message-ID: <4mud3m$l2u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 10:27:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 What was the holocaust? First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million people went into concentration and work camps and about a million emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared. Second there are stories about the holocaust. And this is where the problem lies. The stories, although oft repeated, have not been critically reviewed. The question is, why would people lie about what happened to them? There are many likely answers to that question. o Motivation Plain and simple revenge against the people who had imprisoned them for years and treated them in an absolutely shameful manner. o Mistaken In any prison rumor is the fastest moving and most erroneious thing there is. The repetition of common camp rumors as the truth is certainly to have been expected. o Physical condition Although there is question as to the physical conditions in the camps, were they in fact as bad as told then these people were on the point of starvation and that common induces pyschosis particularly if it has been long term. Certainly there are other possible explanations for false information to have been generated but these three are sufficient to indicate there is a clear need for physical evidence for these statements to support. This testimony can not be accepted as true without physical evidence. What was the plan for the Holocaust? Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it discusses two plans, before and after the conference. The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note. The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be moved out of Europe. The is referred to as "to the east" and by the curious word "emigrated" in the common translation. No death camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe, certainly a violation of human rights but that is it. After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister. The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a deliberate plan to kill people introduced by this means only. In between the description of these two plans there is what appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan. But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65 to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I. The conclusion of course is that although this document is often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned to exterminate the Jews, it is clearly nothing of the kind. That plan in even the worst case interpretation was developed in late 1941. What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust? Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the information we have comes from witnesses. Unfortunately these witnesses are not particularly credible in that the tell stories that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best. Additionally the most common witness testimony used to support these stories is only from the prosecution without indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases. One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as turning off the gravity. What is the physical evidence for the holocaust? Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work camps and that very few survived. But what little physical evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being force fit into a preconceived conclusion. For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that had to have occurred to satisfy the 12 million body count and the reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the effort is to find features of a morgue converted into a gas chamber to perform this function. This effort has problems right from the start. First we note that it is partially underground and that the walls above ground are bermed, banked with earth. We also note that it is steel reinforced, flat concrete roof. Yet in the same compound there are two othe