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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1995/giwer_debate_9512


 R_9512 
+++ r_951223 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (805)
To:      Larry Craig                            18 Dec 95 13:11:10
Subject: Bosnia                                 

LC>  How can our military engage in acts of war, without 
LC>  Congress declaring war?

     You aren't paying attention.  This is not a war.  This is 
not even a military action.  It is, at best, a field exercise, 
until the shooting starts that is.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (806)
To:      Jack Maynard                           18 Dec 95 13:11:10
Subject: Bosnia                                 

JM> On Dec 11, Lester Garrett sez this about something Larry Craig said:

JM>  LC>> I thought it was Congress who declared war?

JM>  LG> It is.  Why then bring up this non sequitur?

JM> FYI, Of the last 150 military 'actions' only 5 have been declared a WAR.

     What military action?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (807)
To:      Larry Craig                            18 Dec 95 13:13:10
Subject: Charade                                

LC> When did Congress appropriate funding for Bosnia?

     It hasn't.  What makes you think that matters?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (808)
To:      All                                    18 Dec 95 14:13:10
Subject: Clinton's SS                           

Paul Weyrich commentary for 9/18

THE COUNTER-REBELLION OF THE MIDDLE CLASS

     My colleague Mike Schwartz and I were in Chicago over the 
weekend and there we met a very interesting young man named 
William Kelly. Kelly is all of 28 years old and up until a couple 
of years ago, he had no intention of being in politics. 

     Kelly was a young, naive seminary student who never paid 
much attention to the political process until one day President 
Clinton was coming to town to hold one of his town meetings. 
Kelly decided to go. It struck him odd that all of the questions 
President Clinton received from the audience were favorable, 
questions such as, "Does it bother you that the media hasn't 
given you the credit you deserve for your outstanding work on the 
economy?"  And so on. So Kelly decided that Clinton should be 
asked a questio n reflecting sentiment he had picked up in the 
Chicago area. Kelly worked his way to the microphone and asked 
the President why, when he had promised a middle class tax cut to 
the American people in the 1992 elections, he had gone back on 
his promise. That was it. No threats. No violence. Just a simple 
and fair question. Bill Clinton went ballistic. Apparently his 
handlers had assured them that he wasn't to be asked any hostile 
questions. Kelly was asked to leave by the Secret Service and he 
complied immedi ately. There were no angry outbursts or further 
demonstrations on his part. Of course, the national media played 
up Kelly's question because it was the only controversial thing 
to have happened at this staged town meeting. 

     Kelly went home and three hours later, the Secret Service 
arrived at his door. They arrested him for having caused a 
disruption in the presence of the President of the United States. 
They handcuffed him, put him in leg irons and hauled him off to 
jail. Kelly couldn't believe it. All he had done was ask a 
legitimate question of the President of the United States. 

     A Secret Service agent later told Kelly that because he had 
left peacefully when he was asked to do so, the Secret Service 
would not have, on its own initiative, moved for his arrest. The 
arrest, Kelly was told, was on orders from the President himself. 

     Kelly was completely new to all of this and he didn't know 
where to turn. Through a family friend, he was put in touch with 
an attorney who went to work on the case. The attorney told him 
it was a lead pipe cinch to get the charges dropped. There was no 
case. But the attorney proved to be wrong. The charges remained 
in the face of witnesses of all sorts that Kelly had done nothing 
that an American citizen is not entitled to do. The attorney, who 
himself had once been a prominent elected official in Chicago, 
finally concluded that the charges were totally political. He 
advised Kelly to contact his Congressman. But Kelly's Congressman 
was one Bobby Rush (D-IL), the former leader of the Black 
Panthers who had now managed to get himself a seat in the House 
of Representatives. Bobby Rush didn't choose to help his 
constituent. So Kelly's attorney advised him to run against the 
Congressman. On the day he announced his candidacy for Congress, 
the governme nt dropped the charges against Kelly. 

     All of this has really radicalized Kelly who did 
surprisingly well against Rush in the last election. Kelly has 
now filed a lawsuit charging that the Rush district was created 
solely to elect someone like Rush to Congress. If he wins the 
lawsuit, he will run again. 

     In the meantime, Kelly has written a little book entitled 
The Rights of the Middle Class. Advent of the Rebel Conservative. 
In this 150 page paperback book, Kelly argues that the real war 
against the middle class was joined at the Democratic convention 
in Chicago in 1968. The riots at that convention, provoked by 
radicals, led to the defeat of Hubert Humphrey by Richard Nixon 
in the Fall of that year. 

     In the book, Kelly suggests that the radical rebellion of 
the late 1960s was manufactured from above and thus cannot be 
compared with true rebellions of the past. He traces the damage 
done to the middle class by that manufactured rebellion and 
suggests that only a defiant middle class rebellion against the 
counter cultural movement of the 1960s will save the country. 

     Kelly is busy these days. In addition to his gerrymandering 
lawsuit, he is attempting to get a proposition opposing 
affirmative action on the November 1996 ballot in Illinois. He is 
also organizing a demonstration for the 1996 Democratic 
convention, which will be in Chicago. The idea of the 
demonstration is to close the chapter of the radical 1960s with 
an outpouring of sentiment from middle class folks that they have 
had enough of the radical culture and they want to take their 
country back. 

     I have no idea if Kelly will be able to accomplish all of 
this. But one thing is for sure. Bill Clinton, in arranging for 
his arrest, had no idea what a determined opponent he was 
creating in Kelly. Kelly is absolutely right about the middle 
class. That is what proposition 187 in California was all about. 
It was the driving force behind the changes which took place in 
the elections of 1994. It is the motivating factor for a great 
deal of what is going on in our communities today. Two opponents 
of the pro ho mosexual curriculum introduced in the Des Moines, 
Iowa school system by a now out of the closet homosexual who was 
Chairman of the school board there, were elected by strong 
margins last week and in the process defeated the chairman in a 
landslide. 

     The middle class is, indeed, beginning to speak up. The real 
question which has yet to be answered is simply this: Given the 
state of our culture and our nation, is the counter rebellion of 
the middle class in time?  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (809)
To:      Paul Smith                             18 Dec 95 13:28:10
Subject: Death by Second Hand Smok              

PS>           CIGARETTE HAZE TIED TO DEATH
PS>        VA ordered to pay nonsmoker's mate

PS> Associated Press

PS>    INDIANAPOLIS - For 18 years, Mildred Wiley was a nurse in the
PS> psychiatric ward at a veterans hospital, caring for patients who
PS> smoked so much that she often worked in a blue haze.

PS>    Last week, the U.S. Labor Department ordered the Department of
PS> Veterans Affairs to pay her widower $21,500 a year until his
PS> death - half of her salary - in the first worker' compensation
PS> case in the nation linking secondhand smoke to a cancer death.

PS>           - - - - - - - - -

PS>    In Wiley's case, the Labor Department ruled Dec. 8 that
PS> secondhand smoke was partly to blame for her death from lung
PS> cancer in 1991.  She didn't smoke.  Nor does her husband.

PS>    "This is great news, even though this one at the moment is
PS> confined to workers' compensation," said John Banzhaf, executive
PS> director of Action on Smoking and Health (ASH), a Washington
PS> based anti-smoking group, "It will alert people to the fact that
PS> they can make a claim which they didn't think they could make
PS> before.  Employers are going to say, 'If we don't ban smoking, we
PS> could face future claims.'"

PS> Source:  THE SACRAMENTO BEE,
PS>          Saturday, December 16, 1995

PS> Did I just hear a door open somewhere?

     No.  Administrative decisions do not establish precedent.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (810)
To:      Mike Archer                            18 Dec 95 13:29:10
Subject: Draft Dodgers                          

MA>  Clinton is really making a fool out of the military: he 
MA>  said that he detested them.

     Loathed was the word he used.  But now it is his military 
and he can use it for abstract purposes without merit or gain for 
the US.  Playing alchemist so to speak.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (811)
To:      Forrest Lamont                         18 Dec 95 12:48:10
Subject: Give it up!                            

FL>  MG> To save long distance calls.  

FL>  MG> P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

FL>    Hey guy! all that author, copyright etc garbage just 
FL>  ain't necessary pard.  I just can't see you anthologized 
FL>  with the likes of Safire, Wills and Ivens.  Face it Matt 
FL>  what you post on the echos is on a par with the rest of us.  
FL>  It's just opinion, diatribe, jesting, drivel - in other 
FL>  words just plain old everyday chit-chat.  To presume 
FL>  otherwise is to court delusions of grandeur that would 
FL>  bring tears of joy to any Park Ave psychiatrist.;)

     The purpose is the first sentence.  The calls were costing 
people money.       


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (812)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Dec 95 13:36:10
Subject: Oh No more bad Smoke new               

MP>  I had a patient the other day ( I am a dentist) .  He is an 
MP>  epidemiologist with international connections.  he is quite 
MP>  the anti-smoking advocate.  I got into a brief discussion 
MP>  about this with him.

     Smoking is now contagious?  or is this the best we have for 
"experts"?

MP>   He is sending me some fact sheets and references about 
MP>  smoking and the harmful effects including scond hand smoke.

MP>   He also told me a couple of things about the political and 
MP>  economic clout of the tobacco industry.
MP> 
MP>   Case 1: The World Bank met in Rome, they covered the 
MP>  economic fall out from smoking and it was shown that the 
MP>  damage from smoking causes a net loss of 400 billion from 
MP>  the public purse.  it is a financial as well as a health 
MP>  problem.

     It is amusing to see wild eyed statists, government owns the 
people types, actually openly supporting a position that holds to 
be true.

MP>   Case 2 : The smoking industry is losing ground on the 
MP>  non-smoking ques- tion as regards restaurants and public 
MP>  buildings.  But in a move dovetailing to the new found 
MP>  "Patriot" movement in the US the tobacco industry is now 
MP>  linking smoking to democracy, the right to private property 
MP>  ( LEster come on down ) and freedom of choice and even in a 
MP>  nose stretcher..freedom of speech.  And with some success as 
MP>  the hoodwinked patriots link smoking to everything from 
MP>  Nazi Oppression ( A drivelist specialty) to New World Order 
MP>  globalism ( wat dat ?

     They are very, very late-comers to that argument.

MP>   Case 3: Apparently my patient is a close friend of the 
MP>  head of the Public Health dept of Johns Hopkins University.  
MP>  The former dean was a smoker but when the new one took over 
MP>  he felt it was a bit of hypocricy to allow smoking.  So he 
MP>  banned smoking.  So far so good ...but wait, it seems the 
MP>  tobacco industry is a major donor to Johns Hopkins and 
MP>  ...wait for it...  they objected to this little piece of 
MP>  negative news.  So a bit of pressure was put one the new 
MP>  Dean..  shurely Freedom of expression no doubt .

     So you believe that banning smoking was support of freedom?  
Please take the time to you explain your position in detail.

MP>   But true to his convictions the Dean did not relent.  So a 
MP>  meeting of the University senate was called along with 
MP>  members of the tobacco industry to try to reach a 
MP>  compromise ( I'll stop twisting your arm if you agree 
MP>  to...) Before the meeting started the tobacco front man got 
MP>  up and announced a new $20 million dollar grant.  Apparently 
MP>  it didn't impress the dean and he in fact used it to 
MP>  persuade the majority of the senate that they were 
MP>  compromising their integrity by bowing to tobacco money.

     The poor have integrity.

MP>   But this is a family echo and I for one would not want to 
MP>  leave the impression that the tobacco industry is in anyway 
MP>  trying to influence the public about the safety of tobacco 
MP>  in any but honourable ways.  The sad incident about 60 
MP>  minutes in no way should detract all freedom of the press 
MP>  advocates, from even thinking the tobacco industry is but 
MP>  acting in an honourable way.
MP> 
MP>   I rest my case and light a Marlboro.

     You statists never change.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (813)
To:      Ron Buttenham                          18 Dec 95 14:18:10
Subject: THE APOCALYPSE!                        

RB> BS> art in the technology......  and what you and others suggest 
RB> BS> is still a tad beyond the bend...

RB>  I love The X-Files.  I really do.  Fun entertainment.  But the 
RB>  show is encouraging all kinds of this crap to move into the 
RB>  realm of urban legend.

     Move into?  That is where the script writers are getting it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (814)
To:      Ron Allard                             18 Dec 95 14:23:10
Subject: Washington's Big Lies abo              

RA>  LIE #2
RA> 
RA>  Clinton said in his speech, "The only force capable of 
RA>  getting the job done is NATO.  ...  If we're not there, NATO 
RA>  will not be there.  The peace will collapse.  The war will 
RA>  reignite.  The slaughter of innocents will begin again."
RA> 
RA>  THE TRUTH: It would be more accurate to say that the United 
RA>  States and the Western European imperialist powers created 
RA>  this war.  Until NATO is completely withdrawn, there is no 
RA>  chance for peace.
RA> 
RA>  The roots of the war never had anything to do with so- 
RA>  called ancient ethnic hatreds.  The peoples of the Balkans 
RA>  had lived in peace for decades--because of socialism.

     More correctly, not socialism because of Tito.  He 
slaughtered anyone who got out of line.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (815)
To:      Frank Hay                              19 Dec 95 21:09:10
Subject: It is not compassion                   

FH>  MG>  But now, in response to the "suffering" in Bosnia we are 
FH>  MG>  sending in our troops to be killed.  Lets start promoting a 
FH>  MG>  new phrase.  It isn't compassion with other people's lives.

FH>  What then would be the proper demonstration of compassion 
FH>  for the children of Bosnia?

     Where is it written there must be any form of demonstration?

     Why single out children save to make the question emotional 
rather than rational?  

FH>  MG>  responsive government to limit their risk to that in the 
FH>  MG>  oath, "against all enemies, foreign and domestic." But here 
FH>  MG>  we clearly have a case of surrogate compassion.

FH> Isn't `ethnic cleansing' an enemy of the U.S.?

     I do not recall ever being attacked by a popular media catch 
phrase.  



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (816)
To:      Ed Mathis                              20 Dec 95 23:50:10
Subject: More tobacco lies  2/3 01              

     Since my name is being taken in vain.

EM>  LG>  I remind the readers of this conference that when it was 
EM>  LG>  first noted here that the Congressional Research Service 
EM>  LG>  had criticized the EPA's dishonest manipulation of the data 
EM>  LG>  on the effects of second-hand smoke, despite your own 
EM>  LG>  admission that you knew not a goddamned thing about the CRS 
EM>  LG>  you immediately suggested that whoever they were a little 
EM>  LG>  research would prove them to be an organization in the 
EM>  LG>  employ of the tobacco industry.

EM>  The first time Matt Giwer mentioned the article I said I 
EM>  was not familiar with the CRS and suspected its origins.  

     And when you learned it was a part of the Library of 
Congress in my responding message just what did you do other than 
post words you did not comprehend?

EM>  I said what I said because the report sounded exactly like 
EM>  much of the typical tobacco industry propaganda that 
EM>  peppers the media.  I made no excuses for my error when I 
EM>  later found out what the CRS was.

     Rather you have yet to demonstrate the slightest ability to 
deal with the concepts used in any of the analysis presented, 
that means the math.  I believe the term in innumerate which is a 
parallel to illiterate.

EM>  Unlike you and some others here, I admit when I'm wrong and 
EM>  don't try to save face by lying or bluffing my way out of 
EM>  it.
EM> 
EM>  But when I'm right, I won't back off and refuse to be 
EM>  intimidated by those that use questionable tactics, such as 
EM>  moderators that tear up the rules when they are involved in 
EM>  a hopeless battle.
EM> 
EM>  I did find, however, that my suspicions were justified.
EM> 
EM>  Here is a quote in the original message to Matt Giwer last 
EM>  year:



EM> =========beginning of quote:

EM> * Area: 241 ************************************************************
EM>   Msg#: 1                                      Date: 29 Jun 94  19:26:00
EM>   From: Ed Mathis
EM>     To: Matt Giwer
EM>   Subj: Congr. Research Service?
EM> ************************************************************************

EM> [some deleted]

EM> MG> The Congressional Research Service did the third and most
EM> MG> recent discreditation of the same group of studies.

EM>  Sorry, Matt, with all due respect, without further 
EM>  information I cannot accept this at face value.
EM> 
EM>  I am totally unfamiliar with this group.  Would you please 
EM>  give a bit more information about them?  What is their 
EM>  heritage?  How long have they been operating?  Who are 
EM>  their main players?  Do they have any ties at all to the 
EM>  tobacco industry?  What other subjects do they involve 
EM>  themselves with?
EM> 
EM>  I would be very interested in seeing some of the specific 
EM>  "proof" they use to refute the conclusions of the EPA study 
EM>  and what criteria they used to reach this "proof."  I would 
EM>  like to see their opinion of the individual studies 
EM>  themselves, if they have any.  If they cannot go into such 
EM>  detail, their discreditation must be very vacuous.
EM> 
EM>  Since you seem to be in possession of same, I am asking you 
EM>  to post some brief excerpts with annotations of sources 
EM>  where I can follow up on them for myself.
EM> 
EM>  [some more deleted]
EM> 
EM>  LET'S SEE SPECIFICS, MATT.  Can you give some solid 
EM>  specifics, or can you only make sweeping generalizations 
EM>  and empty allegations?

EM> ================end of quotation


EM>  After Matt [typically] subsequently refused to substantiate 
EM>  his claims with quotes and sources, I did some research of 
EM>  my own.  Lo and behold -- I found that the 2 economist 
EM>  authors of the CRS report had engaged in some serious 
EM>  manipulations of the truth.  

     I have to disagree.  That is not what you did.  You 
demonstrated with what you posted that you are no able to 
comprehend the information you were posting and nothing more.  

And to top it off, their 
EM>  report WAS done indirectly for the tobacco industry (it was 
EM>  written to order for Congressman Bliley, Philip Morris's 
EM>  main man in Congress and the recipient of more tobacco 
EM>  money than any other Congressman) and DID have an indirect 
EM>  lineage to the industry through Dr.  Huber, whose paper was 
EM>  the basis of their report.

     Which is another demonstration of innumeracy.  By your lack 
of reasoning, if NASA publishes a report showing the gravity 
exists, it can not exist because NASA's budget depends upon the 
existence of gravity.

EM>  The first CRS report WAS industry propaganda, though a 
EM>  little more roundabout than most.  It was criticized in 
EM>  Congressional testimony and the two authors of the paper 
EM>  were severely castigated for attempting to propagate 
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (817)
To:      Ed Mathis                              21 Dec 95 00:10:10
Subject: Smoking                                

     On 12/19/95 
   from ED MATHIS 
     to LESTER GARRETT 
     on Smoking 
in Fido-Debate

EM> As I have done.

EM>  If you would like, I would be willing to post the entire 
EM>  text of the summary of the EPA study.  In that summary you 
EM>  would see for yourself the words of both the EPA study and 
EM>  the CRS report unfiltered by anyone else's interpretation.  
EM>  You would see that the CRS report misstated many of the 
EM>  basic points made in the EPA study.

     I would like you to post some evidence you are capable of 
understanding what you are posting.  I know that is a lot to ask 
but I would expect it to be fundamental.

EM>  I have posted the sources for the Brownson and Stockwell 
EM>  studies several times so that anyone interested can verify 
EM>  that they are in total agreement with the EPA study, 

     How would you know?

EM>  contrary to what the tobacco industry and the CRS 
EM>  economists say in their first report.  If you need the 
EM>  sources again I will be happy to post them for you.

     As above.

EM>  Are you interested in the facts and the truth?  If you are, 
EM>  it will only take you a couple hours' work to verify 
EM>  everything I have told you.  And I will help you with 
EM>  publication names, dates, and issues.

     Rather than quote from the bible when you are in deep shit, 
explain what you quote.

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As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.