The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1995/giwer_debate_9506


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1023)
To:      All                                    26 May 95 04:47:10
Subject: ETHICS, MORALS & ORIGI 01              

                Ethics, Morals and Their Origins
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <5/25>

     The reason for confusion over the terms ethics and morals is
very simple.  They are confused.  There are the pure ethical
systems of philosophy based upon reason.  There are the pure
moral systems of religion based purely upon revelation or dogma.
And then there is what most of the rest have, a salad bar
selection from ethical and moral systems.
     The salad bar approach is perhaps most easily illustrated by
pointing out that in the Bible an abortion is mentioned only once
and then requires only a small compensation.  On the other hand,
the Hippocratic Oath expressly prohibits abortions.  Obviously it
is not only easy to pick and choose but to reverse obvious sides.
     The two differ in their roots.  Religions that have one god
(post Babylonian Hebrews) or effectively one god (Marduk of
Babylon or Ahura Mazda of the Zorastrians) associate their
principles of social behavior to be what please their god.  Those
which have a plethora of more or less equal gods (Greeks and
Romans) or too many to keep track of (Hindus) do not attribute
social norms to their gods.
     Now all are in the "don't piss off the god(s)" mode of
course but where it is easy to conceive of a single god handing
down ten commandments the Greek pantheon would still be fighting
over which ten to include.  Also the single and dominant gods
tend to be fighting some more or less equally powerful and evil
god in some form such as the image of Satan.  Although this was
grafted on to Christianity several centuries after it started,
when the Hebrews expunged their other gods they replace them with
the hordes of demons from which Marduk protected his worshippers.
     Thus from the Greeks we have the first attempt at code of
conduct, ethics if you will, to replace the competing demands of
so many individual gods.  (Bhudda was more likely the first but
that is another discussion and they were not clearly connected.)
Socrates taught rules of conduct for both the individual and the
government.  Examination of the charges against him were not that
he taught contrary to all the gods but contrary to the demands of
the chief gods of Athens risking their displeasure.  It was not
their concern what Socrates believed as the gods would deal with
him individually.  Rather that a large number of the young were
following him and that would bring disfavor upon the city.
     Later Aristotle managed to avoid dying for his attempt at a
god neutral ethics although the Greeks were preoccupied with
Philip of Macedon.  So the story goes, Aristotle died for
keeping Philip waiting.  In any event, this idea spread to Rome
as it also had an "impossible to please" pantheon of gods.
     Thus it is quite true that the Greeks and Romans were amoral
as their actions, other than ritual worship, were not governed by
the absolutes of any god.  For example Rome could have been a
warrior culture had Mars dominated the other gods.  As it was the
temple of Mars was only open when the empire was at war and
closed otherwise.  Thus the god was only called upon in time of
need, very like a Catholic with a fish bone in his throat and St.
Blaise.
     The single god system that was ultimately imposed upon the
Roman Empire was a single god system.  Little survives of the
first single god system to become popular in Rome, the Cult of
Mithra (which was centered in Tarsus at the time of Paul.)  We do
not know what their particular moral code might have been as most
records of them were eliminated by the later Christians after the
Christians adopted their rituals and customs and beliefs in to
Christianity.  For example there was the virgin birth, born in
and buried in a cave, resurrection, even down to ceremonies in
caves and Vatican Hill being sacred to them.
     Christianity did have moral teachings, many of them, and of
course they conflicted.  They settled their theological and moral
differences by killing off the opposition such as the Sunday
slaughters in Constantinople.  Perhaps this was good as it lead
Constantine to take control of the various Christians and start
to impose some sort of order.  But the order he imposed was
merely that of accepting the beliefs and morals of the most
powerful sects.  For example, the teachings of Augustine were
included as at the time it was not known he was a liar in
claiming to have converted a race of headless men and a race of
cyclops.
     It probably would not have mattered even if it were known as
power determined doctrine and moral teachings.  It is easy to
show doctrinal changes, forgeries, and other forms of fraud,
lies, treachery and even murder to impose the present limited
forms of doctrinal variations we have.  It is more difficult to
show changes in moral teachings.
     It is left for the student of comparative religion to
perform the trivial exercise of showing the current prohibitions
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1074)
To:      Delores Rowe                           30 May 95 02:43:10
Subject: SEARH WARRANT DECISION                 

DR> A supreme decision has been made:

DR> MG>     Today the Supreme Court held that Waco style raids are in
DR> MG>violation of the constitution.  Following the lead of the Florida
DR> MG>Supreme Court warrants must be served by knocking on the door or
DR> MG>its equivalent.

DR> MG>     About damn time.

DR>  Did they happen to put any limitations on WHAT they could 
DR>  knock on the door with?

     I have been looking for the text since I heard it.  I will 
post it as soon as available.  I have not had such interest since 
the Florida SC made a similar finding.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1078)
To:      Alec Grynspan                          30 May 95 13:48:10
Subject: MURDER IN MAUTHAUSEN                   Rec'd 

AG> 
=============================================================================
AG> * Originally in ALT.REVISIONISM (ALT.REVISIONISM)
AG> * From : dk@lems.brown.edu, 1:12/98.1 (Friday May 12 1995 05:30)
AG> * To   : All
AG> * Subj : Murder in Mauthausen
AG> *
AG> *****************************************************************
AG> * FORWARDED * by ====> Alec Grynspan (1:12/98)
AG> *****************************************************************
A
AG> Three witnesses testify about various forms of murder in Mauthausen.
AG> Among the victims were captured American soldiers.

AG> ------------------------------------------------------------------
AG>  Executions were carried out almost daily at Mauthausen.  In 
AG>  the years preceding 1942 they were carried out by firing 
AG>  squads and the bodies were burned in the camp incinerator 
AG>  which operated almost daily.  SS-guards made up the firing 
AG>  squads and were detailed for the work in a routine manner 
AG>  the same as for other work details.  Victims executed by a 
AG>  firing squad were always shot singly by six men using 
AG>  rifles.  The number of executions varied daily.  Sometimes 
AG>  they included persons brought by the Gestapo who were 
AG>  executed immediately.
AG> 
AG>  In 1942 a gas chamber resembling a shower room was built 
AG>  next to the incinerator.  Gas executions were carried out in 
AG>  the gas chamber approximately three times a week and the 
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AG>  bodies were burned in the adjoining incinerator.  From my 
AG>  guard post I could hear the sound of the victims pounding 
AG>  on the door when the gas was turned on.

AG> 

     Certainly not mass executions and it raises the question as 
to what kind of gas (that could be turned on) was used here.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1079)
To:      Alec Grynspan                          30 May 95 14:00:10
Subject: GASSING IN THE 'ALTREICH'              Rec'd 

AG> <*[*] [*] [dk@lems.brown.edu] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
AG> <+[Gassing in the 'Altreich', III] [Thursday May 11 1995 16:26][*][0]*>

AG> 
=============================================================================
AG> * Originally in ALT.REVISIONISM (ALT.REVISIONISM)
AG> * From : dk@lems.brown.edu, 1:12/98.1 (Thursday May 11 1995 16:26)
AG> * To   : All
AG> * Subj : Gassing in the 'Altreich', III
AG> *
AG> *****************************************************************
AG> * FORWARDED * by ====> Alec Grynspan (1:12/98)
AG> *****************************************************************
AG> nk.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
AG> From: dk@lems.brown.edu (Daniel Keren)
AG> @Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
AG> Subject: Gassing in the 'Altreich', III
AG> @Date: 12 May 1995 01:26:03 -0500
AG> Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
AG> @Lines: 10
AG> @Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu
AG> @Message-Id: <9505120624.AA21650@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
AG> @Nntp-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu

AG> Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration
AG> Camp
AG> [Quoted in "The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
AG> --------------------------------------------------------------------
AG>  ... I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners
AG> (60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took
AG> place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the
AG> corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in
AG> Strasbourg.


AG> -+-
AG>  + Origin: Usenet:UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway (1:12/98.1)
AG> 
=============================================================================

     These stories get more and more interesting.  90 bodies iced 
down, loaded into a refrigerated railroad car, shipped to 
Strasbourg, iced down again and trucked to the holding room at 
the university which has the capacity for 90 bodies.  I will 
grant they probably did have the capacity and possibly did have 
90 students doing gross anatomy.

     On the other hand I am reminded of Salem, where people 
confessed to being witches.  Why would people confess to either 
gassing or being witches if it were not true?


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+++■■■■■ r_950606 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1138)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 95 06:43:10
Subject: JEWS %& HOLOCAUST       0              

 *************  Original From: MICHAEL CURRY
 * FORWARDED *             To: GABOR LAUFER
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 04/10/95 - 0002343
 *************             On: EFBBS - 0001 - Elite
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
  Yes, neo-nazi grows in Europe.  And here, to a lesser extent.
Neo-samurai grows in Japan.  100 million rapidly-reproducing Mexicans
heave against the US border. China returns to a form of modified
imperialism.
 
  We are due for a major war of some kind. Give it five years. Population
pressure, economic pressure.  Maybe luck will come our way, and mass
epidemics will wipe out enough people to relieve the pressure.  It's too
bad that AIDS isn't just a *little* bit more virulent. Eking out the AIDs
deaths is more expensive than it's worth.
 
  About the Holocaust business:  Gabor, I believe that many Jewish
organizations, and the Holocaust Society is one, are more concerned with
promoting their *influence* and power, and less so to promoting stuff like
world peace, prevention of genocide, and so on.  And no, I do not restrict
that evaluation to Jewish organizations -- I feel the same way about the
United Way, for instance, BUT, the Jewish, Holocaust, ADL, etc, tend to
draw people into vociferous and misguided support of many actions and
projects that kinda don't have a lot to do with memorializing tragedy,
hmm?
 
  It's hypocrisy that bugs me, not the actions themselves.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1139)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 95 06:52:10
Subject: JEWS %& HOLOCAUST       0              

 *************  Original From: MICHAEL CURRY
 * FORWARDED *             To: GABOR LAUFER
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 04/21/95 - 0002548
 *************             On: EFBBS - 0001 - Elite
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> *> What specifically are you referring to, when you claim hypocrisy?
> *  Well, gee, speaking personally, I always kinda give out with a sardonic
> *chuckle or two when I hear about the Israeli army gunning down a few more
> *dozen stone-throwing Arab boys.
>
> Kind of interesting that you equate that with the murder of 6 million
> Jews. Why am I not surprised?
>
> Gabor
> ---
>  * JABBER v1.1 * It is easier to get forgiveness than permission
>  * GT 19.00 * When the cat and mouse agree, the grocer is ruined.  -Proverb
>
 
  I suspect that you are not surprised because you, like most media
junkies, accept the conversion of moral principles to matters of simple
magnitude.
 
 Hypocrisy means preaching one thing and doing another.  If you preach the
horrors of ethnic murder, it is hypocrisy to order the use of lethal force
against Arab boys, but nothing more than riot-batons and tear gas against
Tel-Aviv crowds.
 
 The ethical rightness or wrongness of death is not cumulative. The death
of 12 million as ethnic cleansing is no worse than the death of 40
rock-throwers as ethnic cleansing.
 
  If it's good for me to give an apple to a hungry child, is it twice as
good for me to give two apples?  How about a truckload of apples?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1140)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 95 06:58:10
Subject: LONG SENTENCES ??                      

 *************  Original From: MICHAEL CURRY
 * FORWARDED *             To: GABOR LAUFER
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 05/16/95 - 0003003
 *************             On: EFBBS - 0001 - Elite
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 Seventy percent of the American jail population, at last CBS report, was
incarcerated for drug crime.
 
 Much of the nation's "jail problem" would dissipate if drugs were
decriminalized.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1141)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 95 07:03:10
Subject: LONG SENTENCES ??                      

 *************  Original From: MICHAEL CURRY
 * FORWARDED *             To: GABOR LAUFER
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 05/24/95 - 0003091
 *************             On: EFBBS - 0001 - Elite
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> *I would guess that Chancellor Bill would not be very interested in
> *the decriminalization of narcotics, at this point. The "drug problem" is
> *the very basis upon which massive amounts of money are allocated to
> *paramilitary "crime-fighting" organizations like BATF, DEA, and FBI.
>
> It is funny that you found this name (Chancellor), but the prospects are
> not funny at all. I do have a certain degree of fear, that he may try to
> do "something" about him not being elected during the next election.
> Even an unsuccessful attempt could create some real havoc.
> Do you see a certain possibility of such attempt?
> If yes, how can he do it?
 
    I think that he needs at least one more major "terrorist" plot.
Offhand, I do not believe that Clintonites planned the OKC bomb, although
there is sufficient vagueness about details and suspects that I am more
than a little suspicious.  Remember how the press went NUTS interviewing
every Tom, Dick and Harry who had ever so much as seen Nicole Simpson, or
OJ, or sister, brother, 3rd cousin, you name it?
 
    Have you noticed that nobody has interviewed the McVeigh father, the
sister, the brothers, the neighbors?  Like a great big squelch has been
put on the media about the whole thing?  That makes me REALLY uneasy --
"control the media" was the watchword of the entire Nazi regime.  "Control
the media" means more than just gagging reporters -- it means controlling
access to information, people, and it means (worse) the willingness to
provide false or distorted information in order to promote the goals of
the regime.
 
  No, Clinton knows that he needs the military to execute a coup.  Right
now, I wonder if he is considering the possibility that the FBI, DEA,
BATF and the special CIA divisions may be able to do enough to pull it
off.  The military is a very hierarchical, very calcified bureaucracy, and
I'm not so sure that they would be capable of moving effectively to
prevent the assumption of "emergency powers".

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+++■■■■■ r_950608 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1077)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 95 19:08:10
Subject: LEGITIMATE MILITIAS                    

 *************  Original From: CHARLES FIKE
 * FORWARDED *             To: CHARLES CLENDENEN
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 05/27/95 - 0001880
 *************             On: GIFFER - 0043 - Rights_Rongs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

CC>to
CC> it slanted?  Certainly it is.  Klanwatch is organized and strongly against
CC> Nazis and White Hate groups.  They detest them as much as you detest the
CC> Federal Government, so, just like your opinions are heavily slanted and
CC> prejudiced against the "feds", theirs are heavily slanted against the
CC> supremacists.  They think the "militia" movement is permeated with white
CC> supremacists; you think there are none.

Heres something you might want to read..

                  ----- (4) Militias "Implicated" Etc. -----
                            [Thur. 08 December 94]

Now we are hearing that "militia" groups are being "investigated" by
the FBI for "connections" to the "Duran" film character. In the past
week Bill Cooper (HOUR OF THE TIME - WWCR 5.065 Mhz 12:00-1:00 Am EST)
has been discussing the ADL's Report on Militias to the FBI in which the
ADL ties Militias to "hate crime" and civil unrest. One of the leading
ADL tools is the SPLC ( Southern Poverty Law Center ) whose Director,
MORRIS DEES, has been active ( after not having a court case for the
last 3 years) in naming "Militias" as the new
target in his ( the SPLC's KLanWatch publication - widely distributed to
Police INTEL officers throughout North America.)

In the last week PHIL DONAHUE taped a show on the Militia movement in
which MORRIS DEES failed to show up after finding out a BLACK member of
the Militia of Michigan was to appear. This obviously shot down his
theory that the Militia movement is racist although the FBI continues to
pursue that Track in accord with the BATF. Donohue is reported to
screamed at his staff after the filming of the "militia" program that
he was "set up" after the Militia movement came out looking TOO GOOD
and NOT RACIST as MORRIS DEES (SPLC - Georgia) had asserted.

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+++■■■■■ r_950613 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (684)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 95 18:42:10
Subject: CLINTON THE INNOCENT                   

6/07/95

          With the indictment of the governor of Arkansas in the 
Whitewater investigation, it appears President Clinton and her 
husband are the only innocent people involved with the Whitewater 
Development Corporation.  Shaazam!

     Hail Bill!

     Praise Fred!


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (685)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 95 18:46:10
Subject: PROZAC AND PMS                         

June 7, 1995  ABC World News Tonight

     Prozac appears to relieve PMS syndrome in 50% of the cases 
and to cause it in the other 50%.
     

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (710)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 95 23:25:10
Subject: FEARFUL OF THE MILITIA 01              

                      Advice to the Fearful
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <6/7>

     While learning all about the militia movement from the
popular media, the usual liberal suspects are telling each other
ghost stories.  They are sort of like Casper the Ghost stories.
At the same time the militia members are so crazy they were
deserving only of ridicule and they are also the greatest danger
the country has faced since the invasion by the Duchy of Grand
Fenwick.
     On one hand these people are making fools of themselves
playing soldier in the woods.  On the other hand they are just
waiting the opportunity to overthrow the government of the United
States.  As their fear lies with the latter let us presume it is
true.
     If the latter is true and if they have sufficient numbers of
about 3 million members ready to fight, then in fact they can
overthrow the US government.  That is something to be concerned
about as the US Army would not be capable of stopping them once
they begin guerilla warfare tactics and ultimately they will win.
     There is something wrong with that equation even though by
all experience with insurrection it is correct.  It did work in
Vietnam didn't it?  The Vietnam equation is not the US equation
as it had one other factor, the peasants of South Vietnam were
disarmed.
     And that is why the US is different.  Even if their are 3
million citizens with their 12 million sympathizers ready to
overthrow the US Government, there remain 85 million adults who
will certainly take up arms against them and do with the US Army
can not do, stop the revolution.
     Is that not part of the genius of the citizen militia?  That
the people can decide for themselves whether or not a revolution
can succeed?  Those who are afraid of armed militias have no
reason to be afraid the fearful greatly outnumber them.  There is
only reason to fear if they will not take up arms themselves.
     And everything I read of the fearful indicates they simply
have not considered that option.  Not only have they not
considered it, they want to turn in their guns so they do not
have that ability.  Noting of course that revolutionaries, like
criminals, will not turn in their guns, only the victims will not
have guns.
     Yes, these people have reason to be fearful.  They have
given over every concept of their own safety to government
agencies that can not protect them.
     And their reaction these days is as funny as their portrayal
of the militia movement when they are in the ridicule mode.  Here
are these self disarmed people trying to "frighten" these armed
people.  "Disband your militia or I with intimidate you a second
time!"
     Another thing they attempt to do is to "reason" with the
people they think are the militia.  They have some very strange
idea that the people whom they identify as paranoid on one hand
can be reasoned with on the other.  Noting of course their idea
of reason is to demand they do the liberal thing and call them
stupid of they do not.
     And then in the absolute height of stupidity, unparalleled
since Marie Antoinette, they want the government to forcibly
disband these groups.  There is an old joke about paranoids, the
worst thing you can do is to agree with them.  So here they want
to give paranoids enemies.  Not very bright.
     And here is the point, should the militia movement consider
themselves provoked sufficient to actually start an insurrection,
the only thing that can stop them are the usual liberals
demanding other people protect them.  They will be trying to
"talk sense" into them, a method of unbounded success in Vietnam.
     Rather than admit this, they will say that "two wrongs don't
make a right," that they will not "contribute to making the US an
armed camp," or they might even come up with something original
for a change.  But most likely it will be some threadbare
liberal platitude they learned in gradeschool.  They will
certainly never consider doing the only thing that could work
under such a circumstance, to take up arms against the
insurrection themselves.
     And as certain as night follows day, should a revolution
start they will demand everyone be disarmed and they will be the
first and only to turn in their arms.  No one ever said liberals
were very bright but they are self destructive.  There is not the
slightest expectation that they will see any need for them to
protect themselves from a revolution than from street crime.
     They will vote for the politicians that promise to do the
most liberal thing, such as offer rebels surrender amnesty on
condition they accept a rehabilitation program where they can
learn to get in touch with their feelings.  We have to realize
**
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (746)
To:      All                                     8 Jun 95 04:09:10
Subject: FEDERAL GOVERNMENT                     

On 06/05/95 JESSE JONES to CRACKPOT on Federal government in Fido {CONFERENCE}

JJ> C> JJ>       You would sacrifice innocent lives to your baseless 
JJ> C> JJ>  concept of liberty.  Go ask the folks who work in your 
JJ> C> JJ>  emergency room, or the medics and cops who pull the victims 
JJ> C> JJ>  out of cars.

JJ> C> Please explain what "innocent lives" would be lost without a 
JJ> C> law requiring seatbelt use.

JJ>       Joe was peddling the notion that people are in fact 
JJ>  less at risk if they choose *not* to wear seat belts.  *If* 
JJ>  he persuaded anyone of that stupidity, he would be putting 
JJ>  them at risk.  I find that grossly irresponsible.  Don't 
JJ>  you?

     I think it is none of your business.  Nor is it the business 
of the government as it is not delegated that power by the 
people.

JJ>       The reason the governments should require people to 
JJ>  wear seat belts is because of the societal cost of the 
JJ>  mortality attributable to the nonuse of seat belts.

     If you would ever read the constitution you will find there 
is no power delegated to it to regulate societal costs.  None 
whatsoever, no matter how rational, intelligent or desirable it 
might be. 

     If the power is not in the respective constitutions the 
respective governments do not have it.  

     There are no zero, zip, zilch, nada INHERENT powers of 
government in our form of government, none whatsoever.     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (768)
To:      Lester Garrett                          8 Jun 95 13:52:10
Subject: GASSING IN THE 'ALTREICH'              

LG> In a message to Alec Grynspan, dated 30 May 95, Matt Giwer wrote:

LG>      AG> Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the
LG>      AG> Natzweiler Concentration Camp [Quoted in
LG>      AG> "The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M.
LG>      AG> Webb, p. 89] . . .

LG>  MG> These stories get more and more interesting.  90 bodies
LG>  MG> iced down, loaded into a refrigerated railroad car, shipped
LG>  MG> to Strasbourg, iced down again and trucked to the holding
LG>  MG> room at the university which has the capacity for 90
LG>  MG> bodies.  I will grant they probably did have the capacity
LG>  MG> and possibly did have 90 students doing gross anatomy.

LG>  MG> On the other hand I am reminded of Salem, where people
LG>  MG> confessed to being witches.  Why would people confess to
LG>  MG> either gassing or being witches if it were not true?

LG>  Would you care to explain to those here who may not have 
LG>  caught it, the fallacy you're employing?

     You are perhaps ahead of me here.  It is not a named fallacy 
that I am aware of or even a fallacy.  (Drop some latin on me.)

     These are debating techniques, tactical moves is you will.  
(I do have the right conference for this, don't I?)

     The first paragraph is the equivalent of "damning with faint 
praise."  I am concurring in the possibility of what is described 
while discussing only the questionable parts, which is the 
plausibility of the physical events which must have occurred at 
the same time for the "confession" to be correct.  

     You might call the second paragraph is raising another 
challenge in a different manner to "eye witness" testimony as I 
have done many times in different ways.  Now that "confessions" 
are being introduced (a new tactic) I am responding by pointing 
out by analogy that confessions are no more reliable than victim 
stories.

     On the other hand, AG's approach is to pile on the personal 
testimony approach, switching from victim to victor (?) which can 
be stipulated to exist in great number and to avoid the physical 
evidence problems I have raised.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (880)
To:      All                                    10 Jun 95 03:59:10
Subject: REAL LAWS IN THE US    01              

                       Real Laws in the US
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <5/21>

     Let us for the moment presume that everything the BATF and
the FBI did in Waco is perfectly legal.  If anyone has been
reading between the lines in what I have been writing on the
subject you might notice this is what I have been avoiding
addressing.  This is the worst thought of all.
     My sources will be, without tedious reference, to the
findings of the Treasury and Justice Departments internal
investigations and to the testimony as the trial of the Waco
hostages and public evidence such as press statements that are
contradicted by the same sources later.  I will avoid tedious
reference as those who are familiar with them do not need them.
Those who are not, will ignore them.
     To start with it is completely legal in this country to
deliver warrants by throwing grenades through windows without
even having a warrant to present to legally justify entrance.  It
is also legal to attempt to subdue over 100 people using the
threat of being killed, that is, at gun point without pausing to
present legal justification for doing so.  There are a few other
points at the beginning of the raid but this will do to set the
flavor of what is legal in the US.
     It is further legal to lie to the media and thereby lie to
the public.  It is well known the BATF claimed it was subjected
to "withering machinegun fire" and that the first man out of the
horse trailer was killed as he got out.  We know this kind of
lying to the public is legal and is in fact the policy of the US
government.
     We know that is the legal and the policy of the US
government, in a case where there is a residence filled with
women and children and certainly male noncombatants, to shoot
indiscriminately at anything that moves.  We also know that it is
not only legal but government policy to simply raise a gun over
the hood of a car without looking and empty the magazine of a
high capacity semi-automatic or machine pistol in the general
direction.
     Do not look at me folks.  This is our government in action.
Were there a law against these things there would be indictments.
Were there regulations against such things there would have been
administrative penalties.  There have been no indictments.  The
few administrative penalties have been rescinded and in some
cases resulted in promotions.  All of this has been rewarded,
that is, encouraged.
     But there is more.  Even though the people inside are not
shooting at the BATF yet, it is government policy to refuse a
cease fire request by those being attacked.  It is government
policy for one agency to lie to another (BATF to FBI) and for the
other agency to accept it as truth without investigation.
     It is completely legal and within policy for a government
agency, once having agreed to a cease fire, to kill two unarmed
people with whom the agreement has been made.
     It is further government policy to demonize people based
upon public misunderstanding of the federal government.  That is,
it is policy to accuse people of things that have nothing to do
with the purpose of that attack.
     And related to this, it is standard operating procedure for
the government to refuse to divulge the reason for their attack
in the first place (sealing the warrant) and instead to lie about
the reasons for the attack to the public.  This is our government
in action.  Our laws permit this.  Their regulations permit this.
     Moving on to later it is permissible for the government to
arrest and jail hostages for as long as it pleases without
charges.  That is the law.
     It is permissible for the government to shoot grenades at
hostages who are attempting to escape in order to force them back
inside.  And as with the above, should they brave the grenades,
they can be held without charges indefinitely.
     It is within the law for the government to put the children
of hostages into foster care while their parents are indefinitely
jailed.
     It is legal for the government to lie to a state governor
that there is a drug connection and thus be permitted to use
military equipment against civilians.  This is the policy of our
government, the lying to get the use of the equipment that is.
     It is further the policy of the government and completely
legal to use psychological warfare upon American citizens.  Of
course the objective of such tactics is to make people what they
would not otherwise do.  That is also a working definition of
making people irrational.
     In all of this, it is government policy to be the only
source of information as to what the hostages are saying.  It is
not their policy to allow contradiction.  It is to control the
**
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (881)
To:      Jim Masters                            10 Jun 95 04:15:10
Subject: WACO                                   

On 06/07/95 JIM MASTERS to LESTER GARRETT on Waco in Fido {CONFERENCE}

JM> LG>  As should be clear from the record, had they really been 
JM> LG>  serious about serving their warrant, they need only have 
JM> LG>  asked a couple of deputy sheriffs to accompany them to the 
JM> LG>  compound.

JM>  Well, Lester at the risk of appearing insulting....  ARE YOU 
JM>  NUTS?  If I was a local deputy sheriff there, there aint' 
JM>  no way in hell that I would la de da walk up to that place 
JM>  and door knock.  You would have had to have a suicide wish 
JM>  to do something like that.  I don't think they could have 
JM>  found a lawman in Texas that stupid.  And, if they could 
JM>  have, then that person has no business being a cop.  A 
JM>  cop's job isn't to sacrifice himself.

     As the BATF had been invited to come out and look around 
months before the attack why would they not take up that offer?  

     As the Sheriff's department had gone and looked around 
before why not do it again?

     The above two statements are derived from sworn testimony by 
prosecution witnesses at the trial.  

     Why would you expect anything else?

JM>  I believe things could have been handled better.  But, for 
JM>  you to start putting the axe to anyone that doesn't believe 
JM>  in your point of view 100% is a bit much.  

     It is not his point of view.  It is prosecution testimony.

They made a 
JM>  decision, they had to come up with a game plan.  Now you 
JM>  and I have the luxury of sitting back and saying, well...  
JM>  that didn't work to well.  Now lets suppose they had chose 
JM>  another game plan.  We would have the same hindsight...  we 
JM>  can back seat drive.

     As the 911 tape demonstrate, the government started the 
killing.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (913)
To:      All                                    10 Jun 95 22:20:10
Subject: MILITIA DANGER?        01              

                        Militia Dangers?
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <6/10>

     The usual group of liberal paranoids have discovered there
are militiamen hiding under their beds and in their closets.
Other than it being good to see them lose sleep over someone
besides Rush Limbaugh for a change this is nothing more than
their usual hysteria.  But what of these crimes and "racism"
charges they are desperately trying to associate with some groups
they call militia?
     The first thing to realize is that these people are
publicity hounds.  They want to be on TV and quoted in the press.
That keeps the contributions coming in.  Therefore they are
jumping on the currently media attention on the militia.  They
are calling dozens of other types of organizations they do not
like militias when they did not do that before the OKC bombing.
     It is only a matter of time before one of the wild-eyed
paranoids claims the KKK was founded as a citizen militia.  Some
Neo-Nazi and White Supremacist groups have been identified as
militias when they are no such thing and in fact were never
identified as such before the bombing.
     And the greatest charge that is being levelled against them
is that they are racist.  Although it may be personally
distasteful I find nothing inherently dangerous about racists.
Liberals, on the other hand, can not overcome the compulsion to
associate everyone short of their ideal of a non-racist with an
oven manufacturer.
     Rest assured, liberals, there is a long way between
referring to lazy niggers and lynching even if your compulsion
does not permit you to see it.  There is also a great difference
between a group by any name committing ordinary crimes and a
threat to the government even if the militias were all into
common crimes.
     For nearly two decades there have been gangs of common
criminals operating in the West under some kind of gang name.
Aryan Nation is one of them.  Others work "patriot" into their
name.  Others may use simpler names such as Crips or Bloods.
However, in all cases, they are no different from a drug cartel
or even from the Jesse James gang.
     The reason they are no different if called a militia is that
the crimes are the same and done in the same manner.  These few
groups the media calls militias have committed no crimes that
distinguish them from any other criminal gang.  As with the
Bloods they have chosen titles that put fear in the hearts of
their liberal enemies, which is why they favor the word patriot.
     But rational people are not afraid of a name.  They are
afraid of actions.  I don't care if they call themselves the
Revolutionary Army of the New Republic as long as they are only
knocking over banks they are no different from the Dalton Gang.
And for such crimes we have a well established police system
supported by the FBI.
     The kind of crime a patriot group could commit that would
get my attention is their taking over a town or city and
declaring independence or something like that.  If these folks
are really as dangerous as the terror stricken liberals would
have us believe then I would expect some kind of crime unique to
their "title."      
     As a digression let me clear up one thing.  A liberal lie is
that militias and people like Liddy have claimed they intend to
kill federal agents.  The fact is they have said they will defend
themselves.
     Every individual has the right to defend himself.
Individuals can join together to defend themselves.  If the
"defense" is found excessive that is for the courts to decide.
     But to point to possible crimes they claim militia groups
are conducting military exercises in the woods or in the
countryside on weekends.  When the army trains people to fight
they train them in the widest variety of terrains, environments
and temperatures as possible so that they are good as fighting
there.
     Myself, if they are violent and wish to take over all the
woods and fields in the country and live like Robin Hood, I can't
get too excited.  It only means I will have to cancel my
decennial walk in the woods.  If I see them conducting exercises
in the city, then I will worry.
     But based on nothing the terror stricken are calling for the
government to take action against them.  What action?  Make them
illegal if they are not already.
     If it were that simple then Los Angeles would simply pass a
law against the Crips and the Bloods and the problem would be
solved.  Of course they do not do so.  First, it would not work.
Second, it is unconstitutional.  It is violation of the protected
right of free assembly and association.
**
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1018)
To:      Bob Klahn                              11 Jun 95 03:17:10
Subject: GASSING IN THE 'ALTRE                  

BK>  MG>>  On the other hand I am reminded of Salem, where people 
BK>  MG>>  confessed to being witches.  Why would people confess to 
BK>  MG>>  either gassing or being witches if it were not true?

BK>   You've never heard of torture? You could be forced to 
BK>   confess to just about anything.  If you didn't die first.

     Actually they were not tortured.  The explanation is much 
simpler.

     They saw one person executed for being a witch and denying 
being witch -- executed for a patently impossible thing.  They 
saw another saying "I am a witch but there are others" and living 
longer because they had to live through the trials of those they 
implicated.  But, if they denied being a witch, implicating 
others was useless.  Therefore, to live longer, they had to 
confess to being witches and to implicate others. 

     Any time you set up a situation where testimony to 
conspiracy is accepted as prima facia evidence, you have this 
problem.  It has applied to witches and these days child abuse, 
it is called plea bargaining these days.  

     A confession is an easy thing to get.  Torture was banned.  
Plea bargaining should be banned for the same reason.  The first 
step of torture was to show the person the instruments.  The 
first step in plea bargaining is to recite the possible penalty.  
A threat is a threat.  That a person breaks under threat of lead 
in the ear or 500 years in jail is only a matter of type of 
threat, not that the confession was obtained under duress.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1019)
To:      All                                    11 Jun 95 04:15:10
Subject: TORTURE AND PLEA BARGA 01              

                   Torture and Plea Bargaining
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <6/11>

     Torture was a great way to extract a confession in the old
days.  Do you need a confession to flying around on broomsticks?
eating unborn babies? having intercourse with the devil?  When do
you want the confession?  No problem!
     But today we eschew physical torture.  We know (by faith at
least) that it results if false confessions, confessions to
things that are not true.  Do not the thousands of confessions to
being witches prove that?  Certainly they do.
     One more point on witches.  The purpose was not so much as
to convict the accused but to find fellow witches.  Interesting
that point and it was very clear in Salem that those who accused
others at least lived through the trial of the others and then
had a chance for leniency through repentance.
     But were those confessing in Salem tortured to get
confessions to implicate others?  Some few but not most.  It was
rational self interest in living longer with hope of to the end
of natural life.  That is the most human of things to desire.
     As with all torture the job of the professional torturer was
to prevent the victim from going into fatal shock at the first
application.  Thus the procedure was to first show and describe
the implements of torture.  It was a procedure of easing them
into it.
     Now I direct your attention to the procedure of plea
bargaining.  The first step is to tell the accused the worst
possible sentence as a result of the crime.  This is the modern
variant upon showing the implements of torture.  Then to recount
what will happen to this person while in prison with anecdotes
about homosexual rape and the like.  This is the equivalent of
the second step of showing people being tortured with the
implements.
     And then finally the bargain.  Confess and the charges will
be reduced.  Despite the literary renditions of the Joan of Arc
story, she was offered a plea bargain of today.  That she
rejected it is the point of literary note.
     And almost every day we hear of plea bargaining being used
to get testimony against other in their group.  The threat is
only a variation upon physical torture, psychological torture if
you will.  As Joan of Arc was offered life in prison instead of
execution so to are people offered life in prison instead of
execution in return for a confession.  That we call that "turning
states evidence" makes it no more believable than any other
confession under duress.
     Therefore I propose the end to plea bargaining, a total
prohibition of it on the same grounds as torture is prohibited.
I think it is clear that no more honest confessions can be
obtained with plea bargaining than were obtained with torture.
Both offer to alleviate greater suffering in return for a
confession.  As people were coerced into the confession of the
impossibility of witchcraft by such methods gives no credence to
plea bargaining whatsoever.
     That people would confess to the impossible does not lend
credence to forced confessions of the possible.  But then comes
the question of force.  Is lead in the ear serious force?  In our
day, yes.  In the day without antibiotics, it was probably not
much worse than a common infection and certainly less than a
mastoid.  Tell a woman (witch) her breast will be ripped off with
hot tongs and then you have to remind her that is what her mother
felt as breast cancer killed her.  Perspectives change.
     There is nothing that can justify the plea bargaining given
what we know of the kind of confessions threats can illicit.
Every plea bargain is as suspect as every threat or application
of torture.
     More subtlety the implication of extension of life if others
are implicated by testimony which one must life long enough to
give is one that has to be recognized.  But this can only exist
if testimony rather than physical evidence is the criteria.
     Every conviction must depend solely upon the physical
evidence.  No conviction can be the result of testimony only with
plea bargain, any more than one based upon torture, can be
considered honest.  It is time we came out of the Twilight Ages
and realize what we are doing.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

     To save long distance calls.  One time permission to
reproduce this article is granted upon the following conditions.
All BBS reproduction is included and only an email notification
is requested.  If you Xpost everything, one notification will do.
**
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1020)
To:      All                                    11 Jun 95 04:23:10
Subject: CLINTON THE INNOCENT                   

BJ> MG>            With the indictment of the governor of Arkansas 
BJ> MG>  in the Whitewater investigation, it appears President 
BJ> MG>  Clinton and her husband are the only innocent people 
BJ> MG>  involved with the Whitewater Development Corporation.  
BJ> MG>  Shaazam!

BJ> And people thought Reagan was 'teflon-coated'.. :)

     Teflon?   Have you heard one word about Hillary license to 
practice law having been suspended in Arkansas because of her 
actions on behalf or the Rose law firm?  It is no secret but not 
from our national media, much less from our "alternate" and 
"unbiased" media, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.


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+++■■■■■ r_950617 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (793)
To:      All                                    14 Jun 95 13:36:10
Subject: EL CAPITAN                             

     13 June 1995

     President Clinton presents his version of the balanced 
budget.

     "I must catch up with them for I am their leader."


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (795)
To:      All                                    14 Jun 95 16:45:10
Subject: SEARCH ENDS IN FAILURE                 

          INTENSIVE search ends in failure

     Completing his three week visit to Little Rock, Diogenes 
told reporters his search was a failure.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (798)
To:      All                                    14 Jun 95 20:54:10
Subject: A PROPOSED LAW                         

     Be it proposed before Congress that commercial advertisers 
on TV shall be prohibited from running the same commercial more 
than ten times per hour and more than one hundred times on the 
same channel on the same day. 


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (858)
To:      Bob Klahn                              15 Jun 95 04:10:10
Subject: GASSING IN THE 'ALTRE                  

BK>   Ummm....  seems you are pretty well making my case for me.  
BK>   Though I don't see much distinction between my suggestion 
BK>   of torture, and your threat of death.  Nor do I understand 
BK>   your point about a threat of death or a long prison 
BK>   sentence not being a form of duress.
BK> 
BK>   As to banning plea barginning, I might agree, but in the 
BK>   Salem Witch Trials all your asking is to sentence innocent 
BK>   people to death.

     In the case of Nuremberg we have exactly the same situation 
as Salem.  Which is my point on this thread.   Cooperation and 
remorse are a means of mitigating charges and sentences 
respectively.  The lack of a credible requirement for factual 
support lets the charge of "witches" expand without limitation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (859)
To:      Jeffery Mccain                         15 Jun 95 04:19:10
Subject: GOD EXISTS?                            

JM> LG> [Area: DEBATE]  [Subj: God exists?]
JM> LG> 
JM> LG> In a message to Lester Garrett, dated May 25 1995, George 
JM> LG> Noonan wrote:
JM> LG> 
JM> LG> .LG> Since the universe is the sum total of all that 
JM> LG> exists,

JM>  This is a naturalist assertion, which of course, if 
JM>  allowed, excludes the possibility of the universe being an 
JM>  effect.  
     
     It does not exclude it.  It simply requires evidence to go 
beyond the universe.  The acceptance of mere supposition permits 
the supposition of everything to the limits of human imagination 
and provides no basis for discrimination between suppositions.

But this assertion is not substantiated.  In fact, 
JM>  it begs the question at hand.  If the universe is not self 
JM>  caused, or eternally existent, it is not the sum total of 
JM>  all that exists.  Since science and logic lead us to exclude 
JM>  an infinite series of prior events, the universe can not be 
JM>  described as you have done.

     The universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation in 
nothing sufficiently large to cause inflation.  That you do not 
understand the properties of nothing is something you need to 
correct.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (860)
To:      All                                    15 Jun 95 04:31:10
Subject: THRESHOLD                              

     When a government holds it has the power to violate the 
rights of the people whether it does so or not, then that 
government has lost the right to exist.  It does not do to wait 
until there are a string of violations that establish the 
violation in custom and precedent and allow argument over the 
degree of violation and the substance of particular cases.

     The declaration of a power is both the declaration to use 
that power and the cause for overthrow of that government. 
Patience and deliberation are on the side of tyranny.

                             -- Matt Giwer
                                Tampa, 1995

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (861)
To:      Michael Pilon                          15 Jun 95 04:40:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

MP>  Interestingly a small "fact" that LEster tap dances around 
MP>  is the point that although the Florida Murder rate did in 
MP>  fact fall..it merely fell to the National average.  
MP>  Considering the US has the highest per capita murder rate 
MP>  of Western industrial countries is it not really an 
MP>  enviable statistic.

     As I have pointed out many times, our European descent 
population is marginally less violent than Canadians.  I have 
also asked you how many million of the others you want.  You 
never quite answered those questions.  

MP>  CM>  But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my 
MP>  CM>  right, isn't it?

MP>  BS>  Only if you can find an *unarmed* society that wants you.  
MP>  BS>  You do *not*  have the right to force the rest of us to 
MP>  BS>  live according to your desires.

MP>  SHe says she is thinking of leaving Texas, not that she 
MP>  will leave Texas unless they repeal the concealed carry 
MP>  law.  Big difference and a major decision.  She is looking to 
MP>  Canada but has a phobia about winter.  I suggested British 
MP>  Columbia particularly the coast for warmer weather ;).  I 
MP>  think they would have her.

     I have 25 million others you can have so they will not 
commit crimes in Canada.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (862)
To:      Michael Pilon                          15 Jun 95 04:45:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

MP>  RB>  evidence of real problems.  However, anyone got info on 
MP>  RB>  Arizona?  Last New Years, I kid you not, it was a war-zone 
MP>  RB>  in Phoenix.  Certainly not a shining example of 
MP>  RB>  conservative, law abiding gun owners.

MP>  What happened in Pheonix, I always thought of Arizona as a 
MP>  nice dry retirement area.  A lot of Canadians spend the 
MP>  winter there.

     And was it not the Monty Python troupe that said Canadians 
are non-migratory?  And how do they get their huge cars here?  
Perhaps if they grasped them by the bumpers ...  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (863)
To:      Crystal Morton                         15 Jun 95 04:48:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CM>  Don't be silly, of course I can't.  I do not make the laws, 
CM>  Brad.  But I *do* have the right to fight for what I 
CM>  believe in - which is the abolishment of the CCW laws.  
CM>  That is how the US works.  :)

     Do you prefer open carry and is it banned where you live?  
You do have a law to cite don't you?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (864)
To:      Paul Ford                              15 Jun 95 04:51:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

PF>          Background checks are a start.  I think 
PF>          psychological screenings would be a VERY good idea.  
PF>          If they are to be entrusted with other people's 
PF>          lives, every effort should be made to make sure 
PF>          they are fit and able to use the gun correctly.  
PF>          (and when NOT to use the gun!)

     That a simple matter of education not of psychological 
tests.  If there is anything about "do not point a gun at 
anything you do not intend to kill" that you do not understand 
please let me know and I will explain it to you.  

     Beyond that, psychology is a bogus scam, always has been, 
always will be, and has never had a cure to its record.  Drugs 
have done everything its proponents claim.

     You folks ignorant of guns always seem to think there is 
something mystic about them.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (865)
To:      Crystal Morton                         15 Jun 95 04:55:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CM>  Background checks only work in cases where someone has a 
CM>  prior history of criminal or psychotic behavior.  There are 
CM>  a lot of 'hotheads' out there with no such prior history on 
CM>  record.

     And if you had a gun you would suddenly go on a killing 
spree because you are a hothead.  No?  What makes you think you 
are an exception?  An exception to whom?


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+++■■■■■ r_950618 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (807)
To:      All                                    15 Jun 95 14:21:10
Subject: CUTS NO MORE                           

     Is the media liberal democrat?  Of course not.  Four months 
of constantly correcting they by the Republicans that a reduction 
in increase is not a cut have finally paid off.  In just two 
days, starting with Clinton proposing reductions in increases, 
they have all learned that a reduction in increase is not a cut.

     Perhaps the Republican effort was helped by Clinton's five 
minute TV explanation.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (833)
To:      Ron Barnes                             16 Jun 95 01:18:10
Subject: CRYSTAL'S VIEW                         

RB>  RB>  Crystal has been getting attacked not for her beliefs, but
RB>  RB>  for having those beliefs.  Its very discouraging.

RB>  MG>  She is not being attacked.  But if you wish to say she is 
RB>  MG>  then she is being attacked for refusing to think which is 
RB>  MG>  the only demonstrable thing that separates humans from 
RB>  MG>  animals.

RB>  Well she is.  As I've said before, I've known Crystal for 
RB>  some time now, and never have I ever seen her so adamant 
RB>  about an issue.  We don't even discuss it ourselves 
RB>  anymore.

     That is called refusal to think.  It is a very degraded 
condition for a human.

RB>  MG>  Rather she is an example of intellectual laziness, 
RB>  MG>  rejection of the mind, and less politely, making Forrest 
RB>  MG>  Gump look like a genius.

RB>  You don't consider the above to be an "attack"?  I think I 
RB>  would! This message here also would seem a bit 
RB>  inflamatory:


RB> * Area: Debate 
***************************************************************
RB>   Msg#: 7002                                         Date: 06-12-95  05:17
RB>   From: Matt Giwer                                   Read: Yes    Replied: 
No
RB>     To: Crystal Morton                               Mark:
RB>   Subj: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!
RB> 
******************************************************************************
RB>  CM>  I will not reconsider.  I feel in my heart that it is
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RB>  CM>  wrong.  I cannot and will not refute your statistics;
RB>  CM>  obviously you have more time to spend on research than I.
RB>  CM>  But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my
RB>  CM>  right, isn't it?

RB>  MG> When you learn to think, get back to me.
RB>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

RB> I figure when you resort to that, you've already lost

     I said failure to think in the opening and you post a 
message proving she is refusing to think.  

     Of course if you think "I feel in my heart" is thinking then 
you are in the same degraded category and inseparable from the 
animals in any functional sense.

     I will further point out this is the DEBATE conference not 
the EMOTE conference.  Strictly speaking she is off topic but 
that is not my call.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (841)
To:      Ran Segev                              16 Jun 95 03:12:10
Subject: CIVIL WAR IN OKLAHOM                   

RS>  I'm not a supporter of Begin but one thing I have 2 admit: 
RS>  Most of his target were military one.  B4 few action he warn 
RS>  citizen 2 clean the area.

     In this country even a false bomb warning is a felony.  
"Most of" is not a defense in this country.  As there was no 
declared war, it was pure terrorism, just like McVeigh, Arafat 
and Gerry Adams.

RS>  The big question in my opinion is defenition of terror.  I 
RS>  (personally) againts any kind of violence.

     A terrorist is a loser.  When they win they are statesmen.  
Murder is a matter of political negotiation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (842)
To:      Ron Barnes                             16 Jun 95 03:15:10
Subject: COMMON EXPLOSIVES                      

RB>  FP>  Wasn't the Texas City explosion which leveled half the town 
RB>  FP>  an explosion of fertilizer?
RB>  FP> 
RB>  FP>  It's been confirmed by someone who grew up in Texas city.  
RB>  FP>  They were shipping fertilizer.  There was a big supply of 
RB>  FP>  it on the dock.  Then there wasn't.

RB>  Can you quote a source? (not being antagonistic), I thought 
RB>  it was a _gas_ that exploded.

     Ammonium nitrate was the cargo and there was diesel oil 
(fuel oil #2) in the bilge.  They mix at your own risk.  The 
compressive weight of tens of thousands of tons obviates the need 
for a detonator.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (844)
To:      All                                    16 Jun 95 03:21:10
Subject: BALLOT DOES NOT WORK                   

     No one can say with a straight face that the ballot box is 
the redress for grievance and that the candidate with the most 
money will win.  

     If campaign reform and lobbyist reform is seriously needed 
then the ballot box is not a viable means of changing the 
government.

     If what happens in Congress is a result of the power of the 
committee chairmen then no one who is not in their district can 
change anything by the vote.

     If there is a need for term limits because it is not 
responsive then what venue of redress is there.

     Certainly there can always be the cant to becoming involved 
in the political process but at the rate of change a person can 
live their entire adults lives under this kind of tyranny.

     People to not lightly overthrow a government but at all 
times there is cause.  It is only a matter of degree.  That a 
democratic solution exists does not guarantee that democracy can 
resolve all inequities.  That the system of parties and Congress 
is an extra-democratic source of injustice is an issue that needs 
be addressed before the causes for overthrow mount beyond 
control.




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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (845)
To:      Jim Sterling                           16 Jun 95 03:54:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

JS>  Since much of what used to cost a dime or a quarter from 
JS>  vending machines now costs $1 or $2, I would welcome a 
JS>  dollar coin.  It would save me the frustration of having to 
JS>  straighten all the kinks and minor folds in paper currency 
JS>  and still have it rejected.

     And if there were dollar coins it would be easier for states 
to dispense $1 gaming cards.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (846)
To:      Linda Terrell                          16 Jun 95 04:07:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

LT>     Not the turkey Franklin proposed -- the wild turkey.  A 
LT>  wily, cautious and hard-to find critter that can fly like a 
LT>  bat outta hell.

     Considering we have now a domesticated version of the wild 
turkey, where can we find the original flying chicken?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (847)
To:      Alan Hess                              16 Jun 95 04:08:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

AH> LT>  Instead we end up with a bird that is a dirty, meat-eating 
AH> LT>  scavanger.

AH> The vulture?

     Bald eagle.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (848)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:10:10
Subject: GOD EXISTS?                            

GN>  Sherlock Holmes once told Dr.  Watson that once you have 
GN>  eliminated every other possibility what is left, regardless 
GN>  of how absurd, must be true.  Hence that first physical 
GN>  entity MUST have somehow came into existance from nothing 
GN>  that was physical - i.e.  creation ex nihilo.

     Certainly.  A quantum fluctuation in the energy level of 
nothing sufficiently large to cause inflation.  No magic to it.  
The origin of the universe all all within our present knowledge.

     That you do not understand the properties of nothing is a 
separate discussion.

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (849)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:19:10
Subject: GOD NEEDS HELP?                        

GN>   Then you didn't read very far Kate.  You especially missed 
GN>  that part of the Sermon on the Mount wherein Jesus speaks 
GN>  of the Kingdom of Heaven; that part wherein Jesus gives to 
GN>  Peter "the keys to the kingdom"; and most importantly you 
GN>  have missed missed "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I 
GN>  will build my CHURCH", (Mt.16:18).

     I have always been curious about this translation as the 
word church is quite modern.  The previous word would be been 
sect, cult or perhaps temple at best.  What might be the real 
meaning of the original word church?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (850)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jun 95 04:45:10
Subject: WACO PROTEST & BOMBS                   

MP>  CB>  Hey, there's our solution: unlimited use of guns, but a 
MP>  CB>  government control on ammo (you need your doctor's 
MP>  CB>  prescription to get it).

MP>  Wasn';t a tax on ammo suggested in the US at one 
MP>  point......there is nothing in the second amendment about 
MP>  having ammo if I read it correctly ;)

     You don't.  The intent to confiscate a powder magazine was 
the shot heard 'round the world.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (844)
To:      All                                    16 Jun 95 03:21:10
Subject: BALLOT DOES NOT WORK                   

     No one can say with a straight face that the ballot box is 
the redress for grievance and that the candidate with the most 
money will win.  

     If campaign reform and lobbyist reform is seriously needed 
then the ballot box is not a viable means of changing the 
government.

     If what happens in Congress is a result of the power of the 
committee chairmen then no one who is not in their district can 
change anything by the vote.

     If there is a need for term limits because it is not 
responsive then what venue of redress is there.

     Certainly there can always be the cant to becoming involved 
in the political process but at the rate of change a person can 
live their entire adults lives under this kind of tyranny.

     People to not lightly overthrow a government but at all 
times there is cause.  It is only a matter of degree.  That a 
democratic solution exists does not guarantee that democracy can 
resolve all inequities.  That the system of parties and Congress 
is an extra-democratic source of injustice is an issue that needs 
be addressed before the causes for overthrow mount beyond 
control.




---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (845)
To:      Jim Sterling                           16 Jun 95 03:54:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

JS>  Since much of what used to cost a dime or a quarter from 
JS>  vending machines now costs $1 or $2, I would welcome a 
JS>  dollar coin.  It would save me the frustration of having to 
JS>  straighten all the kinks and minor folds in paper currency 
JS>  and still have it rejected.

     And if there were dollar coins it would be easier for states 
to dispense $1 gaming cards.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (846)
To:      Linda Terrell                          16 Jun 95 04:07:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

LT>     Not the turkey Franklin proposed -- the wild turkey.  A 
LT>  wily, cautious and hard-to find critter that can fly like a 
LT>  bat outta hell.

     Considering we have now a domesticated version of the wild 
turkey, where can we find the original flying chicken?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (847)
To:      Alan Hess                              16 Jun 95 04:08:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

AH> LT>  Instead we end up with a bird that is a dirty, meat-eating 
AH> LT>  scavanger.

AH> The vulture?

     Bald eagle.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (848)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:10:10
Subject: GOD EXISTS?                            

GN>  Sherlock Holmes once told Dr.  Watson that once you have 
GN>  eliminated every other possibility what is left, regardless 
GN>  of how absurd, must be true.  Hence that first physical 
GN>  entity MUST have somehow came into existance from nothing 
GN>  that was physical - i.e.  creation ex nihilo.

     Certainly.  A quantum fluctuation in the energy level of 
nothing sufficiently large to cause inflation.  No magic to it.  
The origin of the universe all all within our present knowledge.

     That you do not understand the properties of nothing is a 
separate discussion.

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (849)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:19:10
Subject: GOD NEEDS HELP?                        

GN>   Then you didn't read very far Kate.  You especially missed 
GN>  that part of the Sermon on the Mount wherein Jesus speaks 
GN>  of the Kingdom of Heaven; that part wherein Jesus gives to 
GN>  Peter "the keys to the kingdom"; and most importantly you 
GN>  have missed missed "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I 
GN>  will build my CHURCH", (Mt.16:18).

     I have always been curious about this translation as the 
word church is quite modern.  The previous word would be been 
sect, cult or perhaps temple at best.  What might be the real 
meaning of the original word church?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (850)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jun 95 04:45:10
Subject: WACO PROTEST & BOMBS                   

MP>  CB>  Hey, there's our solution: unlimited use of guns, but a 
MP>  CB>  government control on ammo (you need your doctor's 
MP>  CB>  prescription to get it).

MP>  Wasn';t a tax on ammo suggested in the US at one 
MP>  point......there is nothing in the second amendment about 
MP>  having ammo if I read it correctly ;)

     You don't.  The intent to confiscate a powder magazine was 
the shot heard 'round the world.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (807)
To:      All                                    15 Jun 95 14:21:10
Subject: CUTS NO MORE                           

     Is the media liberal democrat?  Of course not.  Four months 
of constantly correcting they by the Republicans that a reduction 
in increase is not a cut have finally paid off.  In just two 
days, starting with Clinton proposing reductions in increases, 
they have all learned that a reduction in increase is not a cut.

     Perhaps the Republican effort was helped by Clinton's five 
minute TV explanation.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (833)
To:      Ron Barnes                             16 Jun 95 01:18:10
Subject: CRYSTAL'S VIEW                         

RB>  RB>  Crystal has been getting attacked not for her beliefs, but
RB>  RB>  for having those beliefs.  Its very discouraging.

RB>  MG>  She is not being attacked.  But if you wish to say she is 
RB>  MG>  then she is being attacked for refusing to think which is 
RB>  MG>  the only demonstrable thing that separates humans from 
RB>  MG>  animals.

RB>  Well she is.  As I've said before, I've known Crystal for 
RB>  some time now, and never have I ever seen her so adamant 
RB>  about an issue.  We don't even discuss it ourselves 
RB>  anymore.

     That is called refusal to think.  It is a very degraded 
condition for a human.

RB>  MG>  Rather she is an example of intellectual laziness, 
RB>  MG>  rejection of the mind, and less politely, making Forrest 
RB>  MG>  Gump look like a genius.

RB>  You don't consider the above to be an "attack"?  I think I 
RB>  would! This message here also would seem a bit 
RB>  inflamatory:


RB> * Area: Debate 
***************************************************************
RB>   Msg#: 7002                                         Date: 06-12-95  05:17
RB>   From: Matt Giwer                                   Read: Yes    Replied: 
No
RB>     To: Crystal Morton                               Mark:
RB>   Subj: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!
RB> 
******************************************************************************
RB>  CM>  I will not reconsider.  I feel in my heart that it is
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RB>  CM>  wrong.  I cannot and will not refute your statistics;
RB>  CM>  obviously you have more time to spend on research than I.
RB>  CM>  But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my
RB>  CM>  right, isn't it?

RB>  MG> When you learn to think, get back to me.
RB>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

RB> I figure when you resort to that, you've already lost

     I said failure to think in the opening and you post a 
message proving she is refusing to think.  

     Of course if you think "I feel in my heart" is thinking then 
you are in the same degraded category and inseparable from the 
animals in any functional sense.

     I will further point out this is the DEBATE conference not 
the EMOTE conference.  Strictly speaking she is off topic but 
that is not my call.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (841)
To:      Ran Segev                              16 Jun 95 03:12:10
Subject: CIVIL WAR IN OKLAHOM                   

RS>  I'm not a supporter of Begin but one thing I have 2 admit: 
RS>  Most of his target were military one.  B4 few action he warn 
RS>  citizen 2 clean the area.

     In this country even a false bomb warning is a felony.  
"Most of" is not a defense in this country.  As there was no 
declared war, it was pure terrorism, just like McVeigh, Arafat 
and Gerry Adams.

RS>  The big question in my opinion is defenition of terror.  I 
RS>  (personally) againts any kind of violence.

     A terrorist is a loser.  When they win they are statesmen.  
Murder is a matter of political negotiation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (842)
To:      Ron Barnes                             16 Jun 95 03:15:10
Subject: COMMON EXPLOSIVES                      

RB>  FP>  Wasn't the Texas City explosion which leveled half the town 
RB>  FP>  an explosion of fertilizer?
RB>  FP> 
RB>  FP>  It's been confirmed by someone who grew up in Texas city.  
RB>  FP>  They were shipping fertilizer.  There was a big supply of 
RB>  FP>  it on the dock.  Then there wasn't.

RB>  Can you quote a source? (not being antagonistic), I thought 
RB>  it was a _gas_ that exploded.

     Ammonium nitrate was the cargo and there was diesel oil 
(fuel oil #2) in the bilge.  They mix at your own risk.  The 
compressive weight of tens of thousands of tons obviates the need 
for a detonator.

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (844)
To:      All                                    16 Jun 95 03:21:10
Subject: BALLOT DOES NOT WORK                   

     No one can say with a straight face that the ballot box is 
the redress for grievance and that the candidate with the most 
money will win.  

     If campaign reform and lobbyist reform is seriously needed 
then the ballot box is not a viable means of changing the 
government.

     If what happens in Congress is a result of the power of the 
committee chairmen then no one who is not in their district can 
change anything by the vote.

     If there is a need for term limits because it is not 
responsive then what venue of redress is there.

     Certainly there can always be the cant to becoming involved 
in the political process but at the rate of change a person can 
live their entire adults lives under this kind of tyranny.

     People to not lightly overthrow a government but at all 
times there is cause.  It is only a matter of degree.  That a 
democratic solution exists does not guarantee that democracy can 
resolve all inequities.  That the system of parties and Congress 
is an extra-democratic source of injustice is an issue that needs 
be addressed before the causes for overthrow mount beyond 
control.




---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (845)
To:      Jim Sterling                           16 Jun 95 03:54:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

JS>  Since much of what used to cost a dime or a quarter from 
JS>  vending machines now costs $1 or $2, I would welcome a 
JS>  dollar coin.  It would save me the frustration of having to 
JS>  straighten all the kinks and minor folds in paper currency 
JS>  and still have it rejected.

     And if there were dollar coins it would be easier for states 
to dispense $1 gaming cards.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (846)
To:      Linda Terrell                          16 Jun 95 04:07:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

LT>     Not the turkey Franklin proposed -- the wild turkey.  A 
LT>  wily, cautious and hard-to find critter that can fly like a 
LT>  bat outta hell.

     Considering we have now a domesticated version of the wild 
turkey, where can we find the original flying chicken?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (847)
To:      Alan Hess                              16 Jun 95 04:08:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

AH> LT>  Instead we end up with a bird that is a dirty, meat-eating 
AH> LT>  scavanger.

AH> The vulture?

     Bald eagle.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (848)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:10:10
Subject: GOD EXISTS?                            

GN>  Sherlock Holmes once told Dr.  Watson that once you have 
GN>  eliminated every other possibility what is left, regardless 
GN>  of how absurd, must be true.  Hence that first physical 
GN>  entity MUST have somehow came into existance from nothing 
GN>  that was physical - i.e.  creation ex nihilo.

     Certainly.  A quantum fluctuation in the energy level of 
nothing sufficiently large to cause inflation.  No magic to it.  
The origin of the universe all all within our present knowledge.

     That you do not understand the properties of nothing is a 
separate discussion.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Gun grabbers are not necessarily honest people.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (849)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:19:10
Subject: GOD NEEDS HELP?                        

GN>   Then you didn't read very far Kate.  You especially missed 
GN>  that part of the Sermon on the Mount wherein Jesus speaks 
GN>  of the Kingdom of Heaven; that part wherein Jesus gives to 
GN>  Peter "the keys to the kingdom"; and most importantly you 
GN>  have missed missed "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I 
GN>  will build my CHURCH", (Mt.16:18).

     I have always been curious about this translation as the 
word church is quite modern.  The previous word would be been 
sect, cult or perhaps temple at best.  What might be the real 
meaning of the original word church?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (850)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jun 95 04:45:10
Subject: WACO PROTEST & BOMBS                   

MP>  CB>  Hey, there's our solution: unlimited use of guns, but a 
MP>  CB>  government control on ammo (you need your doctor's 
MP>  CB>  prescription to get it).

MP>  Wasn';t a tax on ammo suggested in the US at one 
MP>  point......there is nothing in the second amendment about 
MP>  having ammo if I read it correctly ;)

     You don't.  The intent to confiscate a powder magazine was 
the shot heard 'round the world.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (844)
To:      All                                    16 Jun 95 03:21:10
Subject: BALLOT DOES NOT WORK                   

     No one can say with a straight face that the ballot box is 
the redress for grievance and that the candidate with the most 
money will win.  

     If campaign reform and lobbyist reform is seriously needed 
then the ballot box is not a viable means of changing the 
government.

     If what happens in Congress is a result of the power of the 
committee chairmen then no one who is not in their district can 
change anything by the vote.

     If there is a need for term limits because it is not 
responsive then what venue of redress is there.

     Certainly there can always be the cant to becoming involved 
in the political process but at the rate of change a person can 
live their entire adults lives under this kind of tyranny.

     People to not lightly overthrow a government but at all 
times there is cause.  It is only a matter of degree.  That a 
democratic solution exists does not guarantee that democracy can 
resolve all inequities.  That the system of parties and Congress 
is an extra-democratic source of injustice is an issue that needs 
be addressed before the causes for overthrow mount beyond 
control.




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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (845)
To:      Jim Sterling                           16 Jun 95 03:54:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

JS>  Since much of what used to cost a dime or a quarter from 
JS>  vending machines now costs $1 or $2, I would welcome a 
JS>  dollar coin.  It would save me the frustration of having to 
JS>  straighten all the kinks and minor folds in paper currency 
JS>  and still have it rejected.

     And if there were dollar coins it would be easier for states 
to dispense $1 gaming cards.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (846)
To:      Linda Terrell                          16 Jun 95 04:07:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

LT>     Not the turkey Franklin proposed -- the wild turkey.  A 
LT>  wily, cautious and hard-to find critter that can fly like a 
LT>  bat outta hell.

     Considering we have now a domesticated version of the wild 
turkey, where can we find the original flying chicken?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (847)
To:      Alan Hess                              16 Jun 95 04:08:10
Subject: DOLLAR COIN                            

AH> LT>  Instead we end up with a bird that is a dirty, meat-eating 
AH> LT>  scavanger.

AH> The vulture?

     Bald eagle.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (848)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:10:10
Subject: GOD EXISTS?                            

GN>  Sherlock Holmes once told Dr.  Watson that once you have 
GN>  eliminated every other possibility what is left, regardless 
GN>  of how absurd, must be true.  Hence that first physical 
GN>  entity MUST have somehow came into existance from nothing 
GN>  that was physical - i.e.  creation ex nihilo.

     Certainly.  A quantum fluctuation in the energy level of 
nothing sufficiently large to cause inflation.  No magic to it.  
The origin of the universe all all within our present knowledge.

     That you do not understand the properties of nothing is a 
separate discussion.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (849)
To:      George Noonan                          16 Jun 95 04:19:10
Subject: GOD NEEDS HELP?                        

GN>   Then you didn't read very far Kate.  You especially missed 
GN>  that part of the Sermon on the Mount wherein Jesus speaks 
GN>  of the Kingdom of Heaven; that part wherein Jesus gives to 
GN>  Peter "the keys to the kingdom"; and most importantly you 
GN>  have missed missed "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I 
GN>  will build my CHURCH", (Mt.16:18).

     I have always been curious about this translation as the 
word church is quite modern.  The previous word would be been 
sect, cult or perhaps temple at best.  What might be the real 
meaning of the original word church?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (850)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jun 95 04:45:10
Subject: WACO PROTEST & BOMBS                   

MP>  CB>  Hey, there's our solution: unlimited use of guns, but a 
MP>  CB>  government control on ammo (you need your doctor's 
MP>  CB>  prescription to get it).

MP>  Wasn';t a tax on ammo suggested in the US at one 
MP>  point......there is nothing in the second amendment about 
MP>  having ammo if I read it correctly ;)

     You don't.  The intent to confiscate a powder magazine was 
the shot heard 'round the world.


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+++■■■■■ r_950619 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (937)
To:      Ed Blount                              16 Jun 95 21:59:10
Subject: TORTURE AND PLEA BARGA 01              

EB>  MG> Torture and Plea Bargaining
EB>  MG> by
EB>  MG> Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <6/11>

EB>  MG>  Torture was a great way to extract a confession in the old 
EB>  MG>  days.  Do you need a confession to flying around on 
EB>  MG>  broomsticks? eating unborn babies? having intercourse with 
EB>  MG>  the devil?  When do you want the confession?  No problem!
EB>  MG> 
EB>  MG>  But today we eschew physical torture.  We know (by faith at 
EB>  MG>  least) that it results if false confessions, confessions to 
EB>  MG>  things that are not true.  Do not the thousands of 
EB>  MG>  confessions to being witches prove that?  Certainly they 
EB>  MG>  do.

EB>  Certainly, they might.  In this article, you specifically 
EB>  mention Salem and its witch trials.  However, in Salem, 
EB>  Mass.  in 1692, exactly _twenty_ people were convicted of 
EB>  witchcraft and put to death.    Book of Facts" 1994 edition, page 435>  When the foundation 
EB>  of your argument is based either on misdirection, or 
EB>  blatant falsehood, the balance is meaningless.

     Now look up the entire story, not simply the almanac version 
which is a synopsis of the Reader's Digest version of the 
abridged history of Salem. 

     The rest of the story is that at the peak there were nearly 
a hundred in prison awaiting judgement and execution but they 
were continuing to implicate others.  Also at that peak there 
were hundreds more who had been accused including the wives of 
both the governor and Mather.  It was at that point and not until 
then that the witch hunt was ended.

     One of the problems in writing these things is that I do not 
have the time to do a formal summary of every point I expect 
people to know.  There are too many gaps in the knowledge of too 
many people.  


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+++■■■■■ r_950621 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (996)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 95 05:45:10
Subject: BATF NON-THINKER                       

PP>          God help anyone at the next search, seizure and/or 
PP>  arrest occuring under the color of  a merely hinted at 
PP>  and/or alleged violation/suspicion for some other pretended 
PP>  or constructed noxious, "criminal" offense.

     Rather more interestingly there is now formal precedent for 
the federal government having the power to subdue anyone they 
wish to search without ever -- before, during or after -- doing 
the subduing to announce the possession of a warrant.  

     It is further the policy of the government to charge anyone 
who resists being subdued with the same crime they would have 
committed if the warrant had been announced.

     And it is further the policy of the government to charge 
them with that crime even if the only witness they have who can 
testify to the crime is known to testify that such a crime was 
never committed.

     That is the result of Waco. 

     The most interesting part is that there are people who 
support the government having these powers.  You will note them 
on this conference.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (997)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 95 05:55:10
Subject: JOKE?                                  

 *************  Original From: ALEXANDER WATSON LAW
 *  stolen   *             To: ALL
 *   post    *    Date/Number: 06/13/95
 *************             On: GIFFER - 0228 - Law & Disordr
               PLEASE address responses to ALL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. How many B.A.T.F. agents does it take to change a lightbulb.

A. First they get a sealed warrant to fix a dripping tap. 
   Then they get a flamethrower and remove the dangerous
   slippery throw rug. 
   Then they drive a tank into the kitchen. 
   Then they mix a pot of whitewash and paint the hall...

...Alex.
(Pagan & Proud)

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (998)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 95 20:37:10
Subject: CLINTON THE INNOCENT                   

PH>  I heard one commentator on Friday muse that Starr already 
PH>  has enough evidence to indict Hillary for Securities Fraud, 
PH>  Income Tax Evasion, and Obstruction of Justice.
PH> 
PH>  Income Tax Evasion buried Spiro Agnew.  Obstruction of 
PH>  Justice took down Nixon.  Seems that Hillary took the "best" 
PH>  ideas of BOTH those politicians to heart, eh?

     The more interesting speculation is not the if but the 
impact it will have on national politics WHEN it happens.  For 
example, Colin Powell declares himself a Democrat.  Dole/Clinton 
was as clear a choice as Goldwater/Kennedy.  Dole/Powell will 
make for a very interesting and politically correct campaign.

     It could also end hopes for a Republican form of government 
for this country.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (999)
To:      Crystal Morton                         17 Jun 95 23:04:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CM>  MG>  Rather she is an example of intellectual laziness, 
CM>  MG>  rejection of the mind, and less politely, making Forrest 
CM>  MG>  Gump look like a genius.

CM>  And you, sir, are a narrow-minded moron.  

     At least I know you care.

Anyone with a 
CM>  modicom of intelligence would discuss the issue at hand 
CM>  rather than slinging insults.  I generally find that an 
CM>  unprovoked attack rather than an honest discussion is the 
CM>  result of a feeble mind, and I refuse to get into a battle 
CM>  of wits with an unarmed man.
CM> 
CM>  You may now join Mr Atkins in my twit filter.

     You can also cover your ears and shout "I can't hear you" 
real loud.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1000)
To:      Michael Pilon                          17 Jun 95 23:05:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

MP>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Crystal Morton <=-

MP>  CM>  But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my
MP>  CM>  right, isn't it?

MP>  MG> When you learn to think, get back to me.

MP>  I think she is demonstrating this..refreshing indeed and 
MP>  from TExas !! 

     Wanting is not thinking.  Her right not to want to?  Sounds 
very reasoned to me.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1001)
To:      Chris Burruss                          17 Jun 95 23:07:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CB> MG> CM>   obviously you have more time to spend on research than I.  
CB> MG> CM>   But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my 
CB> MG> CM>   right, isn't it?

CB> MG>      When you learn to think, get back to me.

CB>  Hmmm...I was wondering something Matt, since when did 
CB>  thought have anything to do with looking at statistics?  

     I agree looking at statistics has nothing to do with 
thinking.  Understanding the statistics that are looked at has to 
do with understanding statistics, i.e. thought.

To 
CB>  say Crystal is not thinking is a pretty ludicrois 
CB>  statement, don't you think?  

     First she says she has no time to research as an excuse for 
not researching.  In other words, she has no time to gain the 
knowledge needed to have a well formed opinion.  Next she claims 
nothing but "a right to WANT" but writes as though that is a 
"right to HAVE".  

     You will further note that wanting is not thinking.

Perhaps it is you who should 
CB>  evaluate yourself.  Just because a belief is not backed by 
CB>  popular statistics does not mean it is not a well thought 
CB>  out item.  

     "Belief" and "thought out" are antithetical concepts.

CB>  A belief, is just what it is, a state of mind.  

     A state of mind is not thought.

CB>  Any drone can look at statistics, but to form a belief one 
CB>  must actually think.  

     One must think to understand statistics.  A belief can be, 
and in this case for all the evidence was, formed upon no 
rational basis whatsoever.

Perhaps you should take time to 
CB>  reflect on this.

     I have for decades.  There are lots of believers on 
Holy_Smoke.  This is no different.  It is the absolute rejection 
of thinking as a mode of knowledge.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1002)
To:      Bob Sakowski                           17 Jun 95 23:19:10
Subject: OKLAHOMA/RIGHT WING                    

BS>  BS>  I will try to find the transcript and read it....  I was not
BS>  BS>  aware that the agency testified to the fact that their unis
BS>  BS>  had no ID on front.

BS>  MG> I find it amazing there are so many people with such strong
BS>  MG> opinions on this subject who do not know the most elementary
BS>  MG> facts of the case.

BS>  MG> Here is a test.  How many defense witnesses were presented
BS>  MG> at the Waco trial?  And as a extra point question, how many at
BS>  MG> the Weaver trial?

BS>  And this has what relevance to the fact that the FBI did or 
                                                      ^^^
BS>  did not have identifying initials on the front of their 
BS>  "uniforms?"

     It has relevance to the fact that it was the BATF in the 
first place.

     What I was commenting upon was that you first expressed an 
opinion and, when challenged, said that you would try to find the 
information upon which that opinion had to have been based to 
have any validity.

BS>  For your test you can name the witnesses who appeared in 
BS>  defense of either Saccho and Vanzetti or Bruno Hauptman, 
BS>  OK?  That has equal relevance as your interrogatory.

     The case at hand involves the Branch Davidians in the Waco 
trial.  Something you have made a firm pronouncement upon with 
the admission of no basis for that position even to the point of 
saying FBI when it was the BATF.  

=====

     To bypass the bickering here, the issue is the law requires 
two things for proper warrant service.  Announcement of both 
identity and of the possession of a warrant.  That can be as 
little as "BATF!  Warrant!"  According to sworn testimony there 
was no plan to do either at any time nor was anyone assigned to 
do either.  There is also sworn testimony that the plan called 
for the BATF to be shooting pets and throwing grenades as their 
planned first order of business.  The debate is only over who was 
the first to fire a gun, not to throw an explosive, at a person.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1003)
To:      Lester Garrett                         17 Jun 95 23:29:10
Subject: REAL LAWS IN THE US                    

LG>  1.  Checked the content of your QWK packets before they are 
LG>  uploaded to see whether the additional parts are there?
LG> 
LG>  2.  Checked the board after you've uploaded to see whether 
LG>  they actually got there -- and stayed there?
LG> 
LG>  3.  Checked with another board in your area a few days 
LG>  later to see whether he received the mulit-parter which you 
LG>  uploaded?

     Consider three YES answers.  I have also checked to confirm 
they get from this side of the bay 377 to the other side 3603 
with multiple parts.  

LG>  Again, I suggest that you give serious consideration to 
LG>  becoming a Point, PVT node (if you can swing it) or a 
LG>  MailOnly node.  If you do, I think you be happy to have 
LG>  gotten away from the QWK packet format.

     That was where I was headed when I thought the problem was 
solved.  Looks like back to changing everything around again.  
How about a few words on each, who to write, the cost basis and 
so forth?  Would be appreciated.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1006)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 95 20:35:10
Subject: GAMING                                 

JA>  Any Suggestions?
JA> 
JA>  My husband is a small business owner in AZ, he sells used 
JA>  gaming equipment (slot machines and such).  This last week 
JA>  he recieved a phone call from the State Gaming board and 
JA>  was told effective immediatly he must comply with some new 
JA>  regulations, such as a 5 day waiting period on all sales, 
JA>  (this will put them out of business) there hasn't been any 
JA>  laws or regulations that have gone into effect covering 
JA>  this.  When he requested something in writing he was told 
JA>  no.  He called the Nevada Gaming commision to get 
JA>  information and was told that they had been working with AZ 
JA>  to set up new regulations but nothing was in effect yet and 
JA>  suggested that he  cooperate with them (AZ) or he may 
JA>  jepordize his chances of any future licencing they may 
JA>  require.  My question is can any government body just "make 
JA>  up" laws and what, if anything can be done?

     How dare people say they love their country and hate their 
government when the government can intimidate people into 
complying with regulations that have not even been adopted?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1019)
To:      Roger Cravens                          19 Jun 95 01:45:10
Subject: A PROPOSED LAW                         

RC> ->       Be it proposed before Congress that commercial 
RC> ->  advertisers on TV shall be prohibited from running the same 
RC> ->  commercial more than ten times per hour and more than one 
RC> ->  hundred times on the same channel on the same day.

RC> Matt, the degree of insight you continuously display absolutely
RC> amazes me!

RC> You ever consider running for office yourself?

     Then I would have to condemn myself.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1020)
To:      Jeffery Thompson                       19 Jun 95 01:46:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

JT> MG>       Beyond that, psychology is a bogus scam, always has 
JT> MG>  been, always will be, and has never had a cure to its 
JT> MG>  record.  Drugs have done everything its proponents claim.

JT> Really? Ever read Sybil?

     The Sybilline prophecies?  Can't say I have had the 
pleasure.  Or are your refering to that psyrinck who wrote a book 
about his own success?  You mean like Freud did?  Did you never 
read the background of his five cases that were his foundation of 
psychoanalysis?  He lied about all of them.

     The one I remember most clearly was a man who he claimed had 
nothing unusual in his childhood.  Yet as a child his father had 
forced him to sleep strapped to an iron frame so he could not 
masturbate and some other clever but not unusual practices.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (996)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 95 05:45:10
Subject: BATF NON-THINKER                       

PP>          God help anyone at the next search, seizure and/or 
PP>  arrest occuring under the color of  a merely hinted at 
PP>  and/or alleged violation/suspicion for some other pretended 
PP>  or constructed noxious, "criminal" offense.

     Rather more interestingly there is now formal precedent for 
the federal government having the power to subdue anyone they 
wish to search without ever -- before, during or after -- doing 
the subduing to announce the possession of a warrant.  

     It is further the policy of the government to charge anyone 
who resists being subdued with the same crime they would have 
committed if the warrant had been announced.

     And it is further the policy of the government to charge 
them with that crime even if the only witness they have who can 
testify to the crime is known to testify that such a crime was 
never committed.

     That is the result of Waco. 

     The most interesting part is that there are people who 
support the government having these powers.  You will note them 
on this conference.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (997)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 95 05:55:10
Subject: JOKE?                                  

 *************  Original From: ALEXANDER WATSON LAW
 *  stolen   *             To: ALL
 *   post    *    Date/Number: 06/13/95
 *************             On: GIFFER - 0228 - Law & Disordr
               PLEASE address responses to ALL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. How many B.A.T.F. agents does it take to change a lightbulb.

A. First they get a sealed warrant to fix a dripping tap. 
   Then they get a flamethrower and remove the dangerous
   slippery throw rug. 
   Then they drive a tank into the kitchen. 
   Then they mix a pot of whitewash and paint the hall...

...Alex.
(Pagan & Proud)

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (998)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 95 20:37:10
Subject: CLINTON THE INNOCENT                   

PH>  I heard one commentator on Friday muse that Starr already 
PH>  has enough evidence to indict Hillary for Securities Fraud, 
PH>  Income Tax Evasion, and Obstruction of Justice.
PH> 
PH>  Income Tax Evasion buried Spiro Agnew.  Obstruction of 
PH>  Justice took down Nixon.  Seems that Hillary took the "best" 
PH>  ideas of BOTH those politicians to heart, eh?

     The more interesting speculation is not the if but the 
impact it will have on national politics WHEN it happens.  For 
example, Colin Powell declares himself a Democrat.  Dole/Clinton 
was as clear a choice as Goldwater/Kennedy.  Dole/Powell will 
make for a very interesting and politically correct campaign.

     It could also end hopes for a Republican form of government 
for this country.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (999)
To:      Crystal Morton                         17 Jun 95 23:04:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CM>  MG>  Rather she is an example of intellectual laziness, 
CM>  MG>  rejection of the mind, and less politely, making Forrest 
CM>  MG>  Gump look like a genius.

CM>  And you, sir, are a narrow-minded moron.  

     At least I know you care.

Anyone with a 
CM>  modicom of intelligence would discuss the issue at hand 
CM>  rather than slinging insults.  I generally find that an 
CM>  unprovoked attack rather than an honest discussion is the 
CM>  result of a feeble mind, and I refuse to get into a battle 
CM>  of wits with an unarmed man.
CM> 
CM>  You may now join Mr Atkins in my twit filter.

     You can also cover your ears and shout "I can't hear you" 
real loud.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1000)
To:      Michael Pilon                          17 Jun 95 23:05:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

MP>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Crystal Morton <=-

MP>  CM>  But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my
MP>  CM>  right, isn't it?

MP>  MG> When you learn to think, get back to me.

MP>  I think she is demonstrating this..refreshing indeed and 
MP>  from TExas !! 

     Wanting is not thinking.  Her right not to want to?  Sounds 
very reasoned to me.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1001)
To:      Chris Burruss                          17 Jun 95 23:07:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CB> MG> CM>   obviously you have more time to spend on research than I.  
CB> MG> CM>   But I do not want to live in an armed society.  That is my 
CB> MG> CM>   right, isn't it?

CB> MG>      When you learn to think, get back to me.

CB>  Hmmm...I was wondering something Matt, since when did 
CB>  thought have anything to do with looking at statistics?  

     I agree looking at statistics has nothing to do with 
thinking.  Understanding the statistics that are looked at has to 
do with understanding statistics, i.e. thought.

To 
CB>  say Crystal is not thinking is a pretty ludicrois 
CB>  statement, don't you think?  

     First she says she has no time to research as an excuse for 
not researching.  In other words, she has no time to gain the 
knowledge needed to have a well formed opinion.  Next she claims 
nothing but "a right to WANT" but writes as though that is a 
"right to HAVE".  

     You will further note that wanting is not thinking.

Perhaps it is you who should 
CB>  evaluate yourself.  Just because a belief is not backed by 
CB>  popular statistics does not mean it is not a well thought 
CB>  out item.  

     "Belief" and "thought out" are antithetical concepts.

CB>  A belief, is just what it is, a state of mind.  

     A state of mind is not thought.

CB>  Any drone can look at statistics, but to form a belief one 
CB>  must actually think.  

     One must think to understand statistics.  A belief can be, 
and in this case for all the evidence was, formed upon no 
rational basis whatsoever.

Perhaps you should take time to 
CB>  reflect on this.

     I have for decades.  There are lots of believers on 
Holy_Smoke.  This is no different.  It is the absolute rejection 
of thinking as a mode of knowledge.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1002)
To:      Bob Sakowski                           17 Jun 95 23:19:10
Subject: OKLAHOMA/RIGHT WING                    

BS>  BS>  I will try to find the transcript and read it....  I was not
BS>  BS>  aware that the agency testified to the fact that their unis
BS>  BS>  had no ID on front.

BS>  MG> I find it amazing there are so many people with such strong
BS>  MG> opinions on this subject who do not know the most elementary
BS>  MG> facts of the case.

BS>  MG> Here is a test.  How many defense witnesses were presented
BS>  MG> at the Waco trial?  And as a extra point question, how many at
BS>  MG> the Weaver trial?

BS>  And this has what relevance to the fact that the FBI did or 
                                                      ^^^
BS>  did not have identifying initials on the front of their 
BS>  "uniforms?"

     It has relevance to the fact that it was the BATF in the 
first place.

     What I was commenting upon was that you first expressed an 
opinion and, when challenged, said that you would try to find the 
information upon which that opinion had to have been based to 
have any validity.

BS>  For your test you can name the witnesses who appeared in 
BS>  defense of either Saccho and Vanzetti or Bruno Hauptman, 
BS>  OK?  That has equal relevance as your interrogatory.

     The case at hand involves the Branch Davidians in the Waco 
trial.  Something you have made a firm pronouncement upon with 
the admission of no basis for that position even to the point of 
saying FBI when it was the BATF.  

=====

     To bypass the bickering here, the issue is the law requires 
two things for proper warrant service.  Announcement of both 
identity and of the possession of a warrant.  That can be as 
little as "BATF!  Warrant!"  According to sworn testimony there 
was no plan to do either at any time nor was anyone assigned to 
do either.  There is also sworn testimony that the plan called 
for the BATF to be shooting pets and throwing grenades as their 
planned first order of business.  The debate is only over who was 
the first to fire a gun, not to throw an explosive, at a person.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1003)
To:      Lester Garrett                         17 Jun 95 23:29:10
Subject: REAL LAWS IN THE US                    

LG>  1.  Checked the content of your QWK packets before they are 
LG>  uploaded to see whether the additional parts are there?
LG> 
LG>  2.  Checked the board after you've uploaded to see whether 
LG>  they actually got there -- and stayed there?
LG> 
LG>  3.  Checked with another board in your area a few days 
LG>  later to see whether he received the mulit-parter which you 
LG>  uploaded?

     Consider three YES answers.  I have also checked to confirm 
they get from this side of the bay 377 to the other side 3603 
with multiple parts.  

LG>  Again, I suggest that you give serious consideration to 
LG>  becoming a Point, PVT node (if you can swing it) or a 
LG>  MailOnly node.  If you do, I think you be happy to have 
LG>  gotten away from the QWK packet format.

     That was where I was headed when I thought the problem was 
solved.  Looks like back to changing everything around again.  
How about a few words on each, who to write, the cost basis and 
so forth?  Would be appreciated.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1006)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 95 20:35:10
Subject: GAMING                                 

JA>  Any Suggestions?
JA> 
JA>  My husband is a small business owner in AZ, he sells used 
JA>  gaming equipment (slot machines and such).  This last week 
JA>  he recieved a phone call from the State Gaming board and 
JA>  was told effective immediatly he must comply with some new 
JA>  regulations, such as a 5 day waiting period on all sales, 
JA>  (this will put them out of business) there hasn't been any 
JA>  laws or regulations that have gone into effect covering 
JA>  this.  When he requested something in writing he was told 
JA>  no.  He called the Nevada Gaming commision to get 
JA>  information and was told that they had been working with AZ 
JA>  to set up new regulations but nothing was in effect yet and 
JA>  suggested that he  cooperate with them (AZ) or he may 
JA>  jepordize his chances of any future licencing they may 
JA>  require.  My question is can any government body just "make 
JA>  up" laws and what, if anything can be done?

     How dare people say they love their country and hate their 
government when the government can intimidate people into 
complying with regulations that have not even been adopted?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1019)
To:      Roger Cravens                          19 Jun 95 01:45:10
Subject: A PROPOSED LAW                         

RC> ->       Be it proposed before Congress that commercial 
RC> ->  advertisers on TV shall be prohibited from running the same 
RC> ->  commercial more than ten times per hour and more than one 
RC> ->  hundred times on the same channel on the same day.

RC> Matt, the degree of insight you continuously display absolutely
RC> amazes me!

RC> You ever consider running for office yourself?

     Then I would have to condemn myself.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1020)
To:      Jeffery Thompson                       19 Jun 95 01:46:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

JT> MG>       Beyond that, psychology is a bogus scam, always has 
JT> MG>  been, always will be, and has never had a cure to its 
JT> MG>  record.  Drugs have done everything its proponents claim.

JT> Really? Ever read Sybil?

     The Sybilline prophecies?  Can't say I have had the 
pleasure.  Or are your refering to that psyrinck who wrote a book 
about his own success?  You mean like Freud did?  Did you never 
read the background of his five cases that were his foundation of 
psychoanalysis?  He lied about all of them.

     The one I remember most clearly was a man who he claimed had 
nothing unusual in his childhood.  Yet as a child his father had 
forced him to sleep strapped to an iron frame so he could not 
masturbate and some other clever but not unusual practices.


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+++■■■■■ r_950623 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (784)
To:      Paul Ford                              21 Jun 95 22:09:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

PF>  PF>          Background checks are a start.  I think
PF>  PF>          psychological screenings would be a VERY good idea.

PF>          Pure BS.  The field of psychology is legitimate.  
PF>          Drugs are prescribed only when it is a chemical 
PF>          imbalace in the brain that is responsible for the 
PF>          awry behavior.  If the problem is other than 
PF>          physical, counseling usually helps.

     That is what is commonly believed.  I would suggest you look 
into the reality of it.

PF>  MG> You folks ignorant of guns always seem to think there is
PF>  MG> something mystic about them.

PF>          Excuse me.  You have no right to judge me since you 
PF>          have absolutely no idea who I am.  A gun is a tool 
PF>          that can be used for good or evil purposes.  It all 
PF>          depends on the user.  There is absolutely nothing 
PF>          mystical about them and I have known that since my 
PF>          first .22.

     Were you given psych screening as a six year old?  Have you 
gone on a killing spree lately?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (785)
To:      Bob Sakowski                           21 Jun 95 22:11:10
Subject: OKLAHOMA/RIGHT WING                    

BS>  BS>  And this has what relevance to the fact that the FBI did or
BS>  BS>  did not have identifying initials on the front of their
BS>  BS>  "uniforms?"

BS>  MG> It has relevance to the fact that it was the BATF in the
BS>  MG> first place.

BS> Was it not the FBI who "finished" it Matt?

     The only time the identification issue is raised is in the 
initial attack, as to whether initials on the front were 
sufficient to be considered identification.  This is an attempt 
by those defending the government to supply one of the two 
necessary but missing requirements, identification and 
announcement of possession of a warrant. 

     Why they object so greatly when it is suggested the BATF 
were legitimate targets because of their omissions I have no 
idea.

BS>  MG>  The case at hand involves the Branch Davidians in the Waco 
BS>  MG>  trial.  Something you have made a firm pronouncement upon 
BS>  MG>  with the admission of no basis for that position even to 
BS>  MG>  the point of saying FBI when it was the BATF.

BS>  You *still* have not answered the interogatory Matt.  Or 
BS>  are you going to stand by your assertion that the FBI was 
BS>  not involved witrh Waco?

     If you insist upon misreading what I wrote that is your 
business.  For me, there is no way I can stand by what I did not 
say.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (786)
To:      Gary Steinweg                          21 Jun 95 22:28:10
Subject: REAL LAWS IN THE US    0               

GS> MG>                        Real Laws in the US
GS> MG>                                by
GS> MG>                            Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <5/21>

GS> MG>      Let us for the moment presume that everything the BATF and
GS> MG> the FBI did in Waco is perfectly legal.  ..............

GS>  I guess that's why over 50% of the U.S.  citizenry now fear 
GS>  their govt.  I submit that those responsible for this fear 
GS>  are not displeased with this emerging statistic.  They are, 
GS>  contrary to traditional thinking, above the law.

     One of the first signs of tyranny is when the government 
ceases to obey its own laws.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (787)
To:      All                                    19 Jun 95 05:37:10
Subject: RULES OF TYRANNY                       

                   The Ten Truths of Tyranny
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/30>

     1)   Any law the electorate sees as being open to being
perverted from its original intent will be perverted in a manner
that exceeds the manner of perversion seen at the time.
     2)   Any law that is so difficult to pass it requires the
citizens be assured it will not be a stepping stone to worse laws
will in fact be a stepping stone to worse laws.
     3)   Any law that requires the citizens be assured the law
does not mean what the citizens fear, means exactly what the
citizens fear.
     4)   Any law passed in a good cause will be interpreted to
apply to causes against the wishes of the people.
     5)   Any law enacted to help any one group will be applied
to harm people not in that group.
     6)   Everything the government says will never happen will
happen.
     7)   What the government says it could not foresee, the
government has planned for.
     8)   When there is a budget shortfall to cover non-essential
government services the citizens will be given the choice between
higher taxes or the loss of essential government services.
     9)   Should the citizens mount a successful effort to stop a
piece of legislation the same legislation will be passed under a
different name.
     10)  All deprivations of freedom and choice will be
increased rather than reversed.
                              # # #  
     A government is a tyranny when it sets itself above the will
and judgement of the people and refuses to comply with the wishes
of the people.
     A government is a tyranny when it lies to the people to get
what it wants.
     A government is a tyranny when the traditional rights of the
people are treated as obstacles to the objectives of government.
     A government is a tyranny when it creates animosities among
the people.
     A government is a tyranny when it blames the people for not
stopping it from acting against the wishes of the people.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362
 


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (788)
To:      Ron Barnes                             21 Jun 95 03:44:10
Subject: TORTURE AND PLEA BARGA 01              

RB>  Torture still is a good way to get information, and 
RB>  reliable information as well.

RB> Now onto witches:

RB>  MG> One of the problems in writing these things is that I do not
RB>  MG> have the time to do a formal summary of every point I expect
RB>  MG> people to know.

RB>  every point you expect people to know?  The guy nailed you, 
RB>  spewing forth false information, own up to it!

     The gentleman failed to know the wives of the governor and 
Mather were accused of witchcraft at the time it was stopped.  I 
do not know how to make it more clear than that.  I would expect 
people to know that much.

RB>  MG> There are too many gaps in the knowledge of too many people.

RB> Including you it seems

     If you did not know the above perhaps you should sue for a 
rebate on your public school education.



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+++■■■■■ r_950628 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (577)
To:      Greg Swarens                           25 Jun 95 04:34:10
Subject: 2ND AMENDMENT/USCON                    

On 06/22/95 GREG SWARENS to LESTER GARRETT on 2nd Amendment/USCon****** in 
Fido {CONFERENCE}

GS>  Lester, your assumption is incorrect.  While the 
GS>  constitution does limit the powers of government, by this 
GS>  very notion it as well grants rights directly to the 
GS>  individual.  

     False as expected.  The constitution does not limit 
government, it CREATES government, period.  End of the 
Constitution as written.  No further comment needed.

     Notice the first words, WE THE PEOPLE.

You see, the Constitution, specifically the 
GS>  Bill of Rights, is a summary of the rights and liberties of 
GS>  the people which are deemed essential and fundamental.  It 
GS>  is a formal and emphatic assertion and declaration of 
GS>  popular rights and liberties.  Unless of course you are 
GS>  saying the bill of rights and the constitution are separate 
GS>  documents.

     They are the same as per the constitution that no amendment 
shall be considered inferior to it.  You have it very backward.  
The people have only delegated very limited powers to the 
government vie the federal and state constitutions.  No other 
powers are granted.  All others are reserved.

GS> LG>  It displays your own ignorance of early American history 
GS> LG>  and political philosophy.

GS> Where is political philosophy relevant in this text?
     
     It is every place in the constitution if you would read it.

GS> LG>  Not a single one of the Bill of Rights "grant[s]" anything 
GS> LG>  to anyone.

GS> Surely you jest.

     Shirley, you are wrong.  Governments have no more powers 
than the people.  The people can grant no more powers than they 
have individually.  

GS> LG>  Instead, it enumerates certain explicit restrictions upon 
GS> LG>  government.  It is the actions of government, not of the 
GS> LG>  citizen, which are being limited by the Bill of Rights.

GS>  This is not completely true, Lester, and you know it.  The 
GS>  Bill of Rights *DOES* grant specific rights directly to the 
GS>  individual.  In return, by doing so, it is restricting 
GS>  government.

     If you can quote any specific wording that implies a 
granting of rights rather than a protection of same you will be 
the first in over two centuries.  Please be the first.  You will 
go down in the history books.

GS> LG>  The rights of which the founders speak are not "grant[ed]" 
GS> LG>  by government or by any other institution.  Clearly you 
GS> LG>  have forgotten that the philosophical view which underlies 
GS> LG>  our form of government is that rights are "unalienable" 
GS> LG>  (don't they teach the meaning of the Declaration of 
GS> LG>  Independence anymore?) and that the proper role of 
GS> LG>  government is to "secure these rights".   The "grant" is, 
GS> LG>  in fact,

GS>  Oh, is this where you display Chris' lack of understanding 
GS>  of poitical philosophy?  Could be, but from what 
GS>  philosophical teaching did the United States draw on for 
GS>  this?  In other words did the Founding Fathers come up with 
GS>  this on their own, or did they borrow these beliefs? (ie., 
GS>  Plato, Aristotle, St.  Thomas Aquinas, Burke, Marx, etc.).

     What is the point?  What is, is the way it is, regardless of 
the origin.

GS> LG>  by the very author of the Bill of Rights.  The purpose of 
GS> LG>  the Constitution's first 10 Amendments, and that includes 
GS> LG>  the 2nd, was to restrict the power of government, *_NOT_* 
GS> LG>  the rights of the individual.

GS>  Once again Lester, wrongo-bongo.  Are you pro or 
GS>  anti-government?  
     
     That question is not relevant to the constitution.

GS>  You need not answer if you do not wish, 

     Do you imagine anyone would give a shit about answering 
either way?

GS>  it will help my understanding of your reasoning if you do 
GS>  answer.  

     You do not reason.  How can it matter?

I will not involve myself in the SA debate, my 
GS>  comments have nothing to do with this specific amendment.  
GS>  They are general comments and observations regarding the 
GS>  Constitution, not directly related to the Second 
GS>  Amendment.

     Then please evince some comprehension of the basis for the 
constitution so that you can be answered.  When you demonstrate 
complete ignorance it is difficult to know where to start.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (578)
To:      All                                    25 Jun 95 05:12:10
Subject: GIWER'S HAT IN THE RING                

     As the Supreme Court has determined the only requirements 
upon candidacy for Federal office are those in the Constitution, 
I hereby declare my candidacy for the office of President of 
United States of America.  I hereby declare I satisfy all the 
requirements of the US Constitution.
     
     I have an easy to understand platform.  Upon election I will 
note my oath of office to support and defend the constitution of 
the United States of America.  

     What I promise you is that I will not enforce any law that 
is not clearly permitted by the constitution that is my oath.  And 
for that you will have to deal with me as a man of my word.  I 
will give all the details of which laws I execute and do not 
execute when asked.

     Clearly no thinking group of people, mindful of the 
constitution, can ever claim they all agree every law is 
constitutional.  Nor can there be a claim that every president is 
bound by preceding presidents.  

     In other words, if I do not hold a law is constitutional 
according to my oath, I will not permit it to be enforced.  I 
will not be a party to laws contrary to the constitution 
according to my understanding if elected.  I find it impossible 
to believe that other presidents have done otherwise and upheld 
their oath of office.

     I will be different from other presidents.  If I do not 
agree with a law according to my oath I will not let it be 
enforced.  After all, that is why I am asking you to vote for me.  
I am not claiming to do anything other than my job, to execute 
the laws of US.  I only state that I will do that in cognizance 
of my oath of office.

     I do not expect anyone to take this seriously.  But before 
you discount me completely, please ask yourself, why would you 
vote for a person who would not abide by his oath of office and 
do his job.  That is the question I want you to answer.

     Now one can say that there is no longer a concern for the 
details of the constitution but then elections are one of those 
details.  Which "details" are to be ignored and which ones 
observed?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (579)
To:      Chris Burruss                          25 Jun 95 04:00:10
Subject: GUN LAW CHANGES!!!!                    

CB> SFEMB:: Message Routed to: 1:377/50

CB> MG>      A state of mind is not thought.

CB>  Sure it is Matt.  In order to think, one must have the 
CB>  capability to engage the thought process, this requires 
CB>  "state of mind".

     Then you know nothing about thinking.
     
     I agree.


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+++■■■■■ r_950630 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (644)
To:      All                                    27 Jun 95 02:21:10
Subject: MILITIA QUIZ                           

     Here is a challenge for everyone who is against militias and 
in favor of the control of the legal fiction of assault weapons.

     What is the constitutional basis for these gun control laws?

     Hint:  It is not the power of Congress to regulate militias.


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