The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1995/giwer_controv_9504


 R_9504 
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (31)
To:      Frank Hay                              23 Apr 95 05:31:36
Subject: A USED CAR FROM CLINTON?               

FH>  FH> So why are 500 deaths at the hands of Bush better then the
FH>  FH> deaths at Waco under Clinton?

FH>  MG> I wasn't aware it was possible to compare a war to Waco.
FH>  MG> Hint: If it was not a war then Noriega should be in a federal
FH>  MG> penitentiary rather than being treated as a prisoner of war
FH>  MG> according to a rank, a form of "imprisonment" most would
FH>  MG> choose in place of their present lives.

FH>  Then you are comfortable with this distinction? Just call 
FH>  it a "just war" and kill innocent civilians with no 
FH>  restraint?

     That there was indiscriminate killing a civilians is a fact 
not in evidence.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (32)
To:      Andrew Cummins                         23 Apr 95 05:31:36
Subject: CREATIONIST MAGNETIC FIEL              

On 04/19/95 ANDREW CUMMINS to FRANK STEIGER on Creationist Magnetic Fiel in 
Fido {CONFERENCE}

AC>  The decay of the earth's magnetic field has been observed 
AC>  for over a century and it has followed a curve that would 
AC>  result from free decay of a field around a sphere with a 
AC>  highly conductive core.  You can explain no mechanism that 
AC>  would create a reversing dipole field from convection 
AC>  motion in the iron core.  And, mathematically I can *prove* 

     Mathematically you can prove nothing.  You are lying.

AC>  that no such mechanism is contributing any energy (note my 
AC>  use of the phrase "free decay" above).  So, not only have 
AC>  to explain the mechanism, you must explain what turns it 
AC>  off and on and why it has been off from the moment we first 
AC>  looked.

     So you hold that magnetic energy can be destroyed?  Where, 
pray tell did you get this lie?

AC>  BTW, don't confuse yourself with "noise"  (the non-dipole 
AC>  components of the field).

     You mean knowing it is a quadrupole would make you look like 
the liar you are?

AC>  There are no magnetic reversals along the ocean floor.  

     Again you lie.

AC>  Bands of changing magnetic *intensity* (anomalies) have 
AC>  been observed but it is only wishful thinking to call them 
AC>  reversals (core samples do show real reversals, but they 
AC>  don't form bands and they can be caused by numerous 
AC>  self-reversal mechanisms).  The bands are caused by 
AC>  variations in the thickness of magnetized basalt (fracture 
AC>  zones along the ridge is what causes the bands).

     You also lie about geology.

     If you were not such a liar you would respond.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (33)
To:      Andrew Cummins                         23 Apr 95 05:31:36
Subject: CREATIONIST MOON DUST ARG              

On 04/19/95 ANDREW CUMMINS to FRANK STEIGER on Creationist Moon Dust Arg in 
Fido {CONFERENCE}

AC>  -=> Quoting Frank Steiger to All <=-

AC>  FS> MOON DUST

AC>  FS> CREATION POSITION

AC> [text deleted]

AC>  FS> EVOLUTION POSITION
AC>  FS>  The measurements referred to in the creation argument were 
AC>  FS>  merely rough  estimates based on atmospheric sampling.  A 
AC>  FS>  correction factor was assumed  in order to subtract out the 
AC>  FS>  dust originating from the earth itself.  As it  turned out, 
AC>  FS>  the correction factor was grossly in error.  Subsequent  
AC>  FS>  measurements taken in outer space by satellite gave results 
AC>  FS>  consistent with the actual thickness of the moon's dust 
AC>  FS>  layer.

AC>  The concept of dust extinction derives from our knowledge 
AC>  that vast amounts of dust are eliminated from the solar 
AC>  system by the planets and the sun.  Other than 
AC>  insignificant sources of dust, such as from a comet's tail, 
AC>  the dust in not being replaced.  Thus, it is an error to 
AC>  assume that the current rate of dust influx has been 
AC>  constant over time when the evidence suggests that dust 
AC>  influx was exponentially greater in the past.
AC> 
AC>  BTW: Satellite measurements give no clear cut influx rate.  
AC>  And, the currently accepted influx rate wasn't accepted 
AC>  until we knew first-hand how much dust was on the moon.

     Your only defense in this subject is to lie.

     If you were not a liar you would respond.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (34)
To:      Greg Butler                            23 Apr 95 05:31:36
Subject: EDUCATION: LEARN & T              

GB>  MG> Education:  Learning and Thinking
GB>  MG> by
GB>  MG> Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/11>

GB>          You pointed out that most folks do not ponder 
GB>          philosophical ideas, instead they spout memorized 
GB>          slogans.  I understand that this has been typical 
GB>          of Mankind throughout history, that there are "few" 
GB>          thinkers, and plenty of followers.  Most folks 
GB>          don't have the time, energy, brain power or 
GB>          motivation to find gaps in Plato's logic.  Instead, 
GB>          they are ballast, moving in the direction that the 
GB>          thinkers choose.  As yet, I am unable to determine 
GB>          what makes somebody challenge what is told to them 
GB>          (and they become a thinker), and why some people 
GB>          accept it.

     I would suggest they were clearly taught to accept rather 
than to question.  That is the way we have structured our school 
system.  The worst of it is that when some of the teachers act 
like they are trying to get students to think it is "guiding" 
them to the correct answer and only the "guided" answer is 
acceptable on the final.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (35)
To:      Frank Hay                              23 Apr 95 05:31:36
Subject: GUNS, PART (3/3)                       

FH>  MG>  I direct your attention to Vietnam and Afghanistan where 
FH>  MG>  the military power of the two largest armies in the world 
FH>  MG>  failed miserably against exactly what you propose can not 
FH>  MG>  be defeated.  Please do not point out that the Soviet Union 
FH>  MG>  and the US supplied the respective rebels.  When we can get 
FH>  MG>  hundreds of tons of drugs into this country we can also get 
FH>  MG>  hundreds of tons of high tech military weapons into the 
FH>  MG>  country.  There will always be a seller.

FH>  I redirect your attention to The Whiskey Rebellion, The 
FH>  Civil War, WWI and WWII.

     None of those were guerrilla wars.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (36)
To:      All                                    23 Apr 95 05:31:38
Subject: HOW TO DEMONIZE                        

                         How to Demonize
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/22>

     Demonization has started locally here in Tampa Bay.  WTOG
10:00 pm news on Friday the 21st opens with an announcement of
two arrests. It follows that with a clip of Clinton from the 19th
saying "these people will be convicted."  Next the raid in
Michigan is identified on the home of a member of the Michigan
militia.  Finally an interview with a spokesmen for the Florida
Law Enforcement organization saying there are organizations all
over Florida and they are dangerous.
     Let us review the truth as of the time and date of this news
report.  One person was arrested.  The second turned himself in
and is cooperating with investigators and has not been arrested.
The Clinton clip has nothing to do with the arrest or the
voluntary questioning.  The Michigan Militia has disavowed these
people being members.  The interview has nothing to do the militia
movement.
     Demonization has begun.  Despite every warning to withhold
judgment from the President on down until all the evidence is in,
this station has mischaracterized what is known as of this time
and date and has additionally given the impression Clinton has
identified them as being the people who did the bombing.  Further
they have deliberately left out enough information as to what is
known so as to accuse groups that can not have anything to do
with the bombing.
     Of course the voice over of the film clip of the one
arrested person being transferred to federal custody was certain
to point out the crowd shouted "baby killer."  Given most of this
news report was false there is no reason to expect this report
had any truth to it.
     Now there is no reason to expect these people were getting
the wrong news as they claim to have a "satellite news room" with
the impression from the multiple TVs that she is constantly
watching the satellite feed before reporting it.  Of course the
fact the screens always have WTOG logos on them does make
implication look a bit foolish.
     At least this part of the media has jumped onto its own
demonization bandwagon.  The target is the militia movement
despite the lack of evidence at this moment.  That they falsified
facts at the time is not of interest.  There are people who
listen only to this station, there are many more who listen to it
and who have not paid attention to events.  There are others who
will take this as fears fulfilled. 
     On the other hand, perhaps there are simply delusional
psychotics producing the news who can not tell fact from their
own fiction.
     In any event this is what happened at Waco.  Very few paid
close enough attention to know what really happened.  Instead
they are repeating false, incomplete or frankly delusional "news"
reports such as this.  The news can not deal with such niceties
as "turned himself in, is being questioned, and is cooperating
with authorities."  "Arrested" is what fits the news.
     The media can not deal with putting the date of a film clip
of the President that might at least give a hint that his
"statement" has nothing to do with what are falsely claimed to be
"two" arrests.  The media can not deal with the facts that are
known.  It can only deal with its preconceived conclusions.
     Many years ago I stopped searching for a smoothly working
reality behind apparent chaos.  Chaos is the reality.  There is
no conspiracy by the media to demonize anyone.  The media is
simply incapable of dealing with reality.  It really does believe
what is publishes.  It is not rational enough to differentiate
its simplistic view from facts.
     This is another example feeling over reason.  This is an
example of school learning over thinking.  There is no thinking
involved to let free association run wild, ignore conflicting
facts, to imagine there is "presidential" support for such
"conclusions."
     But then it does give the aimless an "artistic" framework
within which to "feel" about events.  Of course it is the aimless
leading the aimless but that is the media we are dealing with
today.  And quicker than you can say, "they abused children,"
there will be hundreds speaking as though this image is in fact
true.
     Welcome to the American education system.  This is what
Dewey hath wrought.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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+++ r_950426 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (167)
To:      Gary Braswell                          24 Apr 95 22:33:10
Subject: FREEDOM FROM MORALITY                  

GB> 
****************************************************************************
GB> MG>     Many have agreed with me to this point.  But now I will lose
GB> MG>them.  This happens very often when they have been suckered in.
GB> 
****************************************************************************

GB>  I dunno, Matt, It seems to happen everytime most try to 
GB>  wade through these wandering epistles of yours.

     I can only guess why they are so difficult for you.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (168)
To:      Thomas Banks                           24 Apr 95 22:33:10
Subject: RACISM                                 

TB> MG>     Yes, fool, a contributing editor, a writer, giving a
TB> MG>personal opinion on the work of a researcher.

TB> MG>     Give it up.

TB> Why?  Time's on my side.

     If you have time, why do you not read it yourself?

TB>  Sitting on the bookshelves at the local bookstore next to 
TB>  _The Bell Curve_ are already two compilations of criticism.  
TB>  Even your beloved _Economist_ joins in the orgy of scathing 
TB>  criticism.  Of course, _Economist_ is only "scientific" 
TB>  when its opinions match your own, eh Matt?  P^)

     I have never read the Economist.  You must have me confused 
with someone else.  In any event I read the book.  I could care 
less about the opinions of others about it.  Unlike you, I know 
what it says.

TB>  Sure, you're free to ignore these two works just as you've 
TB>  ignored everything I've quoted to the point of me catching 
TB>  you discounting them without even bothering to read them 
TB>  first.

     Whatever gave you the impression I had not read them?  You 
were the one giving out second hand quotes.  I was the one who 
identified the author of the article.  How do you think I would 
know who wrote the article without reading them?

  I'm aware of at least one more volume of criticism 
TB>  in the works.  Naturally, you'll discount the author (PhD 
TB>  in psychology) for not being "scientific" enough, for being 
TB>  too "left wing", for having poor potty training, or for 
TB>  some other reason.  Fine.  But eventually, if nothing else, 
TB>  the sheer volume of criticism will finally bury you;  
TB>  something will stick.

     I have not said a word about left wing.  Again you are 
confused.  I only objected to your source.

TB> MG>      BTW:  Have you ever seen "Losing Ground, American 
TB> MG> Social Policy 1950-1980"?  Of course you have not.  A trick 
TB> MG> question, why is that important?

TB>  Not a trick question at all.  "Losing Ground" is the 
TB>  conservative tract Murray cut his political - darn, I was 
TB>  supposed to say "scientific" - teeth on.  Why is it 
TB>  important?  Because it gave the far right of the political 
TB>  spectrum a raging hard-on.

     What specific items in the book did you find justifies this 
description?  Page numbers if you would?  

TB>  The *real* trick question, Matt, is why you use one Murray 
TB>  work to substantiate another.  I'll answer that one for 
TB>  you:  he's about the only one who does.

     Very good.  You know what the book is.  When did you read it 
to know its contents?

=====

     A better question, do you ever do your own reading and form 
your own conclusions or do you always borrow the opinions of 
others about things you never read?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (169)
To:      Tony Miller                            24 Apr 95 22:33:24
Subject: CIA KILL              1/2              

TM> BS>   I'm hoping & waiting for the decline & fall of the US
TM> BS>   American empire.

TM> BS>   * Origin: Do Battle With The Knights Of The Roundtable
TM> BS> (1:264/416.0)

TM>  MG>       You are either not an American or very stupid.

TM> Well, Bob doesn't have to wait too long.  The decline is well
TM> underway, and the fall can't be too far behind.

TM> ...CLINTON.SYS Corrupted ..... Run REAGAN.EXE to fix

     If I take the tagline as yours, then it is far from decline.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      All                                    24 Apr 95 22:33:24
Subject: DAMN FOOL THING IN OK                  

                 Damn Fool Thing in the Balkans
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/24>

     OK, it didn't happen in the Balkans?  It happened in
Oklahoma City.  Here is another way the revolution can start.
     While every public and private person will say it was the
work of a small group of very strange people in the next breath
some of those "responsible" people in government have started
saying there will be raids on all suspect organizations.  One
interview with recent senior executives holds the government can
not do such things.  The morning of that same the Leon Panetta
says it is going to happen.
     I have no idea what the error rate on such raids might be
overall.  In this imperfect world there is a guaranteed error
rate both by those conducting the raid and those being raided.
These raids will be on armed people by armed people.  People on
both sides are going to die.
     After that there will be more justification than Waco to
bring the less extreme people into taking damn fool actions like
Oklahoma.  What these "stay calm" types are missing is that when
they characterize these people as being different rather than
being extreme.  If they are all certifiably insane then they in
fact different.
     Everyone knows they have a breaking point on everything that
irritates them, be it the neighbor's dog, a nagging spouse, or
the proverbial boss.  It is certainly correct to hold people this
extreme with so little provocation should do such a thing.  It is
foolish to believe that with double the provocation there are not
more than double the number people that would reach their
threshold.
     Why anyone would have this kind of threshold over Waco is
another question.  Most people interested in Waco are trying to
force something like an independent prosecutor to look into the
actions of the BATF and the FBI.  That there are some that would
choose this course of action is no more rational than people who
spike trees to injure loggers.  The only difference being an
injured child plays better on the evening news than an injured
logger, after all, the logger is damaging the environment.
     That there are these kind of people can no longer be denied.
Absent evidence of insanity they are simply the farthest out of
the spectrum of provocation -- whether we see it as provocation
or not, whether or not there is a better word for it than
provocation.  There is a next level inward from that extreme and
the number of potential "revenge takers" increases faster than
the number of things for which there is reason to take revenge.
     If the saner heads are right then the Leon Panettas are
wrong then we have nothing to worry about.  It the Panettas are
right then this is another way the revolution can start.
     The people who can be provoked by such actions are
completely convinced they are right just as much as those on the
side of the government.  On an interview aired on Sunday 4/23
Clinton when told that the militias were angry about Waco
exhibited what might be the first true emotion he has shown in
his entire public career.  He actually appeared angry.  But in
his anger he recited "facts" about Waco that members of militias
adamantly and with equal emotion hold are lies.
     It is not evil people we have to fear.  What we have to fear
is people who are acting with outstanding zeal for what they
believe to be right.  We have revolutions when two groups devoted
to what they know to be right come into conflict.
     Defusing this can not be accomplished by the government
saying the opposition must stop saying things about the
government.  This is not a time for the government to close
ranks.  It can afford at the least to throw the parts of the BATF
and the FBI involved in Waco to the wolves if necessary.  All it
has to do is appoint an independent prosecutor.
     With that simple action the entire subject is defused.
Granted it will continue as long as it takes for a special
prosecutor to collect information and what he reports will be
given more scrutiny than the investigation of Nixon and just
short of Warren Commission report but it will work.
     The future is a chaotic as the past.  What will happen does
not have to make sense in order to happen.  Even if these people
are tried and executed in record time, they can become tomorrow's
heroes and by the same people who condemn them today.  That is
the way history works.  That is the way people are.
     Consider the Bill Clinton appeared to show real and true
emotion.  That and only that could turn around his fortunes
overnight.  Letting anger show as a means of popular acclaim has
to be real and that would provoke the armed confrontations and we
are in the same "revolting" boat.
     On the other hand this concentration on Waco could result in
all the TV tabloids running prime time investigations of
everything the government did wrong and putting it in the worst
possible light.  That would lower the threshold of revenge for
those with that bent and we are again in that boat.
     We have been dealt a wildcard by this bombing.  If the wiser
heads will at least say "business as usual" it will change
nothing.  Of course no change by anyone is the least likely
event.  Even the Militia of Michigan has most likely started a
near witch hunt to find anyone in their organization that even
smells of being a bomber.  That will create less than savory
splinter groups and we are back on that boat.
     We are finally living in interesting times.  I hope we all
can live to enjoy them.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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+++ r_950428 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (175)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:44
Subject: BETTING QUESTION                       

     Is anyone willing to bet on which network will be the first 
to produce the mini-series on the Oklahoma bombing?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (176)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:44
Subject: DEATH PENALTY QUESTION                 

     Question:  It in the process of murder the perpetrator 
destroys the victim's social security card, would Clinton and 
Reno support the death penalty?  Or isn't a social security card 
federal property?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (177)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:44
Subject: IMPROVED SECURITY                      

     Local Tampa TV news mention of "beefed up" security in 
Tallahassee.  The film background is a pan shot moving down from 
the top of the capital building and ending at ground level 
showing a Ryder truck parked in front.  No comment is made.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:44
Subject: INVSITGATE WHO?                        

     Let us keep in mind one thing above all.  The reason the FBI 
can not investigate groups that might be interested in bombing 
buildings.  

     Those restrictions were introduced to prevent the FBI from 
investigating groups that Billie Jeff Clinton was a member of.  

     That is fact.

     Investigate his organization, that is the end of it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (179)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:44
Subject: KEEP THE INITIATIVE                    

                   Do not lose the initiative
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/25>

     Over thirty years ago, November 1963 to be exact, a mediocre
president was transformed.  Over a year before the election he
held only a one point lead in the polls over his most likely
opponent, Barry Goldwater.  He had divided the country with his
policies.
     This president was "believed to be" by "right wing radicals"
a womanizer and a drunk back when those were much worse than
today.  Remember this was back when a man who got a woman
pregnant had to marry her.  This was the man who was viewed as
having left men to die at the Bay of Pigs.  Literally 49% of the
voting populace was ready to vote against him in September 1963.
     Beyond that, in the man's time in office he accomplished
absolutely not legislative agenda other than a "tax cut for the
rich."  (By the way, it worked for the economy.)  And then he was
shot and killed by (insert your favorite conspiracy.)
     After he was buried he was a different man.  He did
everything but bring world peace and solve world hunger.  And
what caused this change?  The eulogies.
     According to the government approved conspiracy theory a
Cuban sympathizing Marxist killed Kennedy.  According to the
eulogies it was conservatism.  It was conservatives who called
Kennedy a spade.
     Over that weekend not only was Kennedy elevated from a
nothing to a saint but conservatives were changed from the
political opposition to accessories to murder.
     If you have not noticed it, the same thing is happening
right now.  Back then conservatives bought into the guilt
syndrome.  And worse, they kept quiet while the curse was being
laid upon them.  It happened once.  There is no reason to let it
happen again.
     Bill Clinton has moved to take political advantage of the
dead twice now.  First with the children and then with his
condemnation of people who are trying to change our present
government.
     There is no reason, in this moment of national mourning, to
let this son of a bitch get away with it.  The man is using the
dead to condemn imagined causes.  He has abandoned his own call
as late as Friday the 21st to refrain from laying blame on any
person or any group.  On the 24th he is laying blame.  Hypocrisy
is not the word for it.
     Physician, heal thyself.
     Remove the beam from thine own eye before the mote in thy
brother's.
     There is no guilt to go around.  The people who did it are
guilty, no one else.  Nothing said by anyone about the government
caused this bombing any more than early 1960s conservatives
caused a Cuban sympathizing marxist to kill Kennedy.
     Emotions are a battleground as certainly as Ohama Beach was
a battleground.  The way events are perceived is a battleground
as much as Guadalcanal.
     That a political opportunist like Bill Clinton is taking
political advantage of the deaths of children to condemn those
who disagree with our current government by saying explicitly
they caused the deaths in Oklahoma City is intolerable.
     We can not lose the advantage at this point.  We have the
mechanism of change and there is no reason to pull back from it.
If we slow now because some political opportunist attempts to
impose a guilt trip is stupid. 
     Why stupid?  There is exactly one person under arrest as of
this date because of this bombing.  It is still speculation that
Waco had anything to do with it.  It is speculation that the one
man is anything like the political right in the first place.  It
is speculation upon speculation as to what motivated him, much
less that he is sane in the first place.
     Given the 1963 example, conservatives swallowed a guilt trip
for "inciting" a Castro sympathizing marxist, the very antithesis
of the people who found fault with Kennedy for not overthrowing
Castro.  That is what my mother used to call, "can't win for
losing."
     But at this point we will not stop criticizing the
government.  We will not permit anyone to be silenced for
speaking against the government.
     And to show that we will continue to do it we will
counterattack without "understanding" and without "compassion"
anyone who wants to use the dead to silence us.  
     We will continue among ourselves to ridicule those who see
black helicopters and UN tanks among our ranks.  In that we will
be above the opposition which sees every increase in a program a
cut.  That there has been a lack of vocabulary skills among
Clinton and his fellow liberals is hardly in question.
     That the only term they have in their vocabulary for anyone
not in their party is "extreme right wing" does not mean the
rest of us are such dire need of a course to increase our
vocabulary.  They are applying their limited "us/them" vocabulary
to attempt to portray anyone but themselves as mad bombers.  Such
a limited mind is the best they can do at this point.
     They will do worse if unchecked.  How hard is it to say, "you
are taking advantage of deaths"?  That is what they are doing.
Say it. Clinton did it.  The media is doing it.  Continue
business as usual and tell them what they are doing and spit on
them.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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+++ r_950429 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (85)
To:      Thomas Banks                           27 Apr 95 03:54:20
Subject: COFFEE, TEA OR SUE TOO                 

TB> MG>      The idea that deep pockets makes for liability is the 
TB> MG> issue here.  One can not do something right that many times 
TB> MG> and find the same thing negligent without some using some 
TB> MG> strange definition for the word negligent.

TB>  It met a legal definition of the term Matt because the case 
TB>  not only made it to court but McDonald's lost as well.  

     It satisfied all the legal criteria for filing a tort.  That 
means knowing how to write a suit and where to file it.  If you 
are referring to the word negligent that meant the filing 
correctly used the word in the legal sense and thus the filing 
had merit.  Other than that, it means nothing.

TB>  Write the *verdict* off to soft hearted jurists who wanted 
TB>  to give the old lady a lottery sweepstakes if you like but 
TB>  they don't decide on whether a case merits a hearing or 
TB>  not.  If there was nothing to her case then every 
TB>  McDonald's customer could poor coffee into their lap and 
TB>  sue for millions.  Try it, Matt, and see how far you get.

     Many probably have and are wondering why they are not 
getting the same results.  I've managed the same fool stunt and 
soaked a pants leg more than once.  

TB> MG>TB>   You want to absolve them of liability because their 
TB> MG>TB>   complaint rate is low.  It is irrelevant.  There is no 
TB> MG>TB>   legal requirement that a large percentage of customers 
TB> MG>TB>   must gripe about a potential safety hazard before a 
TB> MG>TB>   company or individual must act.

TB> MG>     By that claim the deep pockets are always negligent.

TB>  Wrong, Matt.  You're attributing your beliefs to me.  The 
TB>  test of your theory is simple.  Go to McDonald's making 
TB>  sure you take your lawyer with you as a witness.  Wear 
TB>  shorts.  Order a large coffee.  Immediately poor the entire 
TB>  contents in your lap.  Then sue McDonald's.

TB>  If you're right then you're a millionaire.  The problem is, 
TB>  Matt, we both know your hyperventilation is just that;  
TB>  your argument is logically flawed.  You won't get a cent.

     And who would expect money for a deliberate action?  And the 
injuries won't be there either without the fortitude to stay 
seating in it.

TB> MG>TB>  The case went to trial.  Based upon the facts McDonald's
TB> MG>TB>  lost.  Live with it.  Truly, the sky is not falling.

TB> MG>      And when you are sued because you should have known 
TB> MG> some one person could slip on one leaf you left on your 
TB> MG> sidewalk you will have no excuse regarding the millions of 
TB> MG> them your removed over the years.

TB>  How many court cases can you cite where somebody got sued 
TB>  for a person slipping on a leaf in the front yard?  Feel 
TB>  free to cite them all.  Oh, that's another "rhetorical 
TB>  device" not to be taken seriously.  Gee, Matt you're full 
TB>  of 'em.

     How about the patch of ice that was missed?  The uneven 
sidewalk?  Both of which are common forms of "negligence."  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (86)
To:      Jim Bailey                             27 Apr 95 03:54:20
Subject: PROJECTION                             

JB> MG>JB>   *Of course* it's not the same; newt's royalties deal was a 
JB> MG>JB>   bribe from murdoch to favor him regarding media owership.

JB> MG>      Are you suggesting Murdoch is going to buy a million 
JB> MG> copies of the book?

JB>  My apologies for the incorrect usage; I meant, in fact, the 
JB>  original $4.5M advance.  The one that followed the 
JB>  conversation between murdoch, his lobbyist and gingrich at 
JB>  a "social" event.

     You mean the advance that was the result of a competition 
between several publishers?  He certainly has a very poor 
lobbyist that costs his boss an extra half million.  

     And are you really suggesting these two books will not sell 
enough copies to cover the advance?  If so, what leads you to 
that conclusion?  And if you are willing to admit they they have 
a good chance at selling enough copies how can it be 
characterized the way you have?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (87)
To:      All                                    27 Apr 95 03:54:20
Subject: THE BATTLEGROUND                       

 

                        The Battleground
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/26>

     I find it strange that an issue buried in the public media
for nearly two years is now front and center.  For better or
worse Waco is something that now going to be discussed.  And the
liberals are going to follow the lead of Clinton in attempting to
take political advantage of it.
     What they want to do is to someone other than the bombers
for Waco.  They are choosing to blame people who are keeping Waco
alive in the public mind.  What they will not admit is that Waco
would not be in the public mind had it not been for the
deliberate decision of Attorney General Janet Reno.
     It is not obvious to the casual observer that the success of
the war of independence for Texas was the responsibility of those
who remembered the Alamo.  It is obvious that General Santa Ana
had a hand in it some place.
     If Waco is to be called the cause of the bombing then is it
those who remember Waco or those who did Waco that are the cause?
If there is to be blame then who is to blame?  Those who point
out what prosecution witnesses have said happened while under
oath or those who authorized those people do what they did?
     This is a very clear question on a very clear issue.  This
admits many different viewpoints.  It does not admit "the
president said it so it must be true" as a rational argument.  Do
not forget, this is the man who started trying to take political
advantages of what will be the deaths of over two hundred people.
Most of the dead were still in the rubble when he started it.
     The primary defense of Clinton will be that he did not name
any names.  Fine.  Who and what was he talking about?  He was
either making it up out of whole cloth or he names and examples.
     When he is willing to say exactly who he meant and what he
is talking about then we have some person and some statement to
discuss.  Otherwise, he was deliberately stirring up political
problems with an eye towards his own advantage.
     This is now the defined battleground.  EVERY unnamed person
who says ANY undefined thing against the government is now being
named as motivating the explosion.  If anyone want to make that
accusation, it was caused by Janet Reno first.  Period.  End of
discussion.
     If Clinton will not name the people and the statements then
no fool liberal is going to be allowed to fill in his pet peeve
and pretend that is what the President meant.  And that is what
they are doing.
     They can try to play their blame game and their shame game
all they want.  It will not hold water.  It is not a tolerable
position.
     Bill Clinton!  Liberals!  Fuck off!

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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