The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_debate_9406


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1228)
To:      Kate Secrest                            1 Jun 94 23:25:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

KS> MG>     I think you can read better than that.

KS>  Hmmm...  I think I've seen this message before...  And I 
KS>  think I've already responded to it...  However - my 
KS>  response was to his remarks comparing this incident to one 
KS>  of a surgeon having left extra materials in a patient and 
KS>  that fact not being discovered for years.

     Perhaps, let me answer it again.  The story connecting her 
to Clinton was published in November 1993.  As the story was told 
it left the impression she in fact did take a tumble with Billie 
Jeff.  The identification was by first name, hotel and date. 

     It appears reasonable that she kept quiet until there was 
such a connection.  It was only after that she tried to get her 
side of the story told to clear her name to her friends and one 
time co-workers. 

     I first heard of her story in an article saying she had been 
turned down by several large newspapers.  It appears she did move 
expeditiously.  In this case we have a law suit filed in barely 
six months of a reasonable cause for taking action.  That is not 
an unusual length of time.

KS> MG>      He is going to need it.  Using the state troopers in 
KS> MG> this matter is both a federal and a state crime.  The boy is 
KS> MG> going to jail if he can't beat this one.

KS>  And is this matter not also a federal and a state crime for 
KS>  the state trooper(s) involved?

     Exactly the point.  There is no problem with his getting 
laid.  The problem is involving the troopers.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1248)
To:      Kate Secrest                            1 Jun 94 23:35:10
Subject: Origin Of Morality                     

KS> MG>                     Origins of Morality

KS> Really nice essay, Matt!
     
     Thank you for taking the time to say so.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1258)
To:      Paul Smith                              1 Jun 94 23:36:10
Subject: Smoking addiction                      

PS> MG>     If it were addictive why are smoke filled rooms exactly what
PS> MG>they are complaining about?  The claims of addiction and second
PS> MG>hand smoke are mutually exclusive.

PS>  What in hell are you talking about?  There's nothing 
PS>  mutually exclusive about these two terms.  I consider them 
PS>  synonymous.

     It appears to me they are not subjected to enough of "the 
most addictive substance known" to become addicted.  It then 
becomes very difficult to they can make a case they have enough 
exposure to be harmed in some manner.

     It is consistent with the EPA evidence (not their fraudulent 
analysis, the data) which shows no harm.

PS> MG>Nicotine in the blood stream causes
PS> PS>  physiological changes to the structure of brain cells.  It
PS> PS>  seems likely that the same is true of side-stream smoke to
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS> PS>  some lesser extent.  I maintain that children of smokers
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS> PS>  are three times more likely to smoke (fact) because they
                                                     ~~~~~~~
PS> PS>  are already addicted to nicotine (though I know of no
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS> PS>  studies to support this assertion.)

PS> MG>      And as you know of no such study it is solely a product 
PS> MG> of your fever imagination with no basis in reality and thus 
PS> MG> you have no basis for your belief.  Why you would bother 
PS> MG> believing that I have no idea.

PS>  For those of you who would like more information on this 
PS>  issue, I refer you to Stanton A.  Glantz's booklet 
PS>  TOBACCO:BIOLOGY & POLITICS, Health EDCO, Waco, TX, 1992.  
PS>  Pages 8 through 11 give a detailed explanation of tobacco 
PS>  addiction.  Let me quote:

PS>      "To summarize, nicotine affects the brain, which then 
PS>      develops a tolerance to the drug through a change in 
PS>      brain chemistry.  The absence of nicotine leads to 
PS>      withdrawal symptoms that lead the addict to use enough 
PS>      nicotine to boost blood levels back to the target 
PS>      level.  Smoking (or other forms of tobacco use) is thus 
PS>      a highly controlled SELF-ADMINISTRATION OF A DRUG (my 
PS>      emphasis)."

     Now that you have taken the time to post this would you now 
go back and underscore the words referring to a study of the 
addiction to side stream smoke?  I can't seem to find them.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1267)
To:      Albert Quinn                            1 Jun 94 23:43:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>      Just where did you learn all of that crap?  Please be 
AQ> MG> specific so we will know you are not making it up.  In 
AQ> MG> particular I would like to know the source of your knowledge 
AQ> MG> of the martyr intentions and would you please post the 
AQ> MG> number of the psychic who told you?

AQ>  From interviews and footage of some of the Koresh sermons 
AQ>  etc.  

     Strangely I have seen some of them and got no such 
impression.  Certainly is was never specific.  Perhaps you could 
quote him?

If it was a legitimate religion then why did they have 
AQ>  to be arme at all and why could they not abide by the law 
AQ>  of the land eq the child welfare laws etc.  

     The state of Texas found after two investigations no 
violations of those laws.  The children who were released by 
Koresh were also examined.  There was no evidence found.  
Therefore it is only your fevered imagination that holds there 
was any violation of the any child welfare laws.

     Which means you are making it up.

     If you are curious about their having guns, they were in the 
business.  They personally owned fewer guns on average than the 
average Texan.  Are you suggesting Baptists do not constitute a 
legitimate religion?

Nobody has the 
AQ>  right to break the law just because they don't agree with 
AQ>  them.  Our prisons are full of people like that.

     So far as anyone can determine there were no laws broken 
to precipitate the attack.  Your only issue appears to be your 
fantasy about violations of the child welfare laws.  In case no 
one ever told you, the BATF has no jurisdiction.  Now why did 
they attack -- other than the flimsy basis found in their 
perjured warrant.

AQ> MG>     We have already dealt with the fire power lie.

AQ>  I don't think we have dealt with the firepower yet.  Can you 
AQ>  tell me why they needed all the weopons they had if they 
AQ>  wern't going to use them? 

     You already know they were gun dealers and made money at 
Texas gun shows.

Don't get me wrong, there is no 
AQ>  excuse for what the BATF did, but as far as I was concerned 
AQ>  they were still lawbreakers as I don't believe that freedom 
AQ>  of religion allows a person to break the law, it just 
AQ>  allows them to practice the religion of their choice.

     You have yet to name a law they broke.     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1268)
To:      John Clifton                            1 Jun 94 23:52:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP                           

JC> > I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from
JC> > a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.
JC> >
JC> > Pardon me.  Don't we have a vice president?  Clinton can simply
JC> > turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law suit
JC> > or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of his
JC> > personal life.

JC>       Nonsense.  There won't be a Presidency if John Q.  
JC>  Citizen can tie up the office holder with a civil suit.

     They can not do so for any action taken while in office.  
That is only correct because of a law exempting the president.  A 
new law may be passed but this case stands by the very wording of 
the law protecting while in office.  If Congress had intended to 
do it it could have easily said "before and while in" office. 
They did not.


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+++■■■■■ r_940605 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1268)
To:      Howard Croasmun                         2 Jun 94 01:14:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

HC> ->     Is there anyone out their stupid enough to think we are 
HC> ->  not going to start killing Haitians in a few days?

HC>  Must be a mistake.  If Clinton were going to send them to 
HC>  Haiti, they would once again be armed only with 9mm 
HC>  sidearms.  And they would slip in very quietly, so that a 
HC>  few dozen guys milling around on the pier don't stop the 
HC>  invasion.  Even then, though, if one good hunger strike 
HC>  gets covered on TV, the whole policy will get reversed.

     And as to the day, how about June the 6th so Clinton can 
include in his speech that he is making another "liberation"?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1279)
To:      Todd Rourke                             2 Jun 94 01:54:10
Subject: WACO                                   

TR>  AQ>  Sorry to brek in here but I have one question to ask you.  
TR>  AQ>  How do you consider peaceful lives people who have the kind 
TR>  AQ>  of firepower that Koresh and his followers at Waco had and 
TR>  AQ>  when you consider that they were never going to surrender 
TR>  AQ>  peacefully but planned on becoming martyrs.

TR>  You can consider that until the cows come home...  fact is 
TR>  that it's the duty of the agents/police serving a warrant 
TR>  to serve that warrant in a peaceful manner.  They didn't.  
TR>  They came expecting trouble, and they got it.  Have you 
TR>  considered that if they'd quietly knocked on the front door 
TR>  and tried to serve the warrant 'the old fashioned way' that 
TR>  the whole thing could have been avoided?

     More simply.  If they had intended to become martyrs why 
would they have called for help and tried to arrange a cease 
fire?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1280)
To:      Albert Quinn                            2 Jun 94 01:56:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  I agree with you that th BATF was terribly wrong but that 
AQ>  does not excuse wha Koresh an co.  were doing or planning.  
AQ>  Does the name Jim Jones mean anything to you.

     And be the first.  Tell us all what they were planning -- 
other than to take over half the guns recovered to a gun show in 
Austin that is.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1281)
To:      Mark Phillips                           2 Jun 94 01:58:10
Subject: Waco                                   

MP> CM>  They had to fake search warrants, commit murder and lie in 
MP> CM>  order to survive?

MP>  Excuse me but the BATF did not murder anyone, out of touch 
MP>  with reality Koresh did.

     Deaths that occur during the course of the commission of a 
felony are considered murder.  The use of military equipment was 
a felony.  Therefore there were over eighty murders.  How many 
times do I have to point this out?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1282)
To:      Pete Bucy                               2 Jun 94 02:08:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>      During the last 50 days of the siege the government had 
PB>      lots of ammunition.  

     But the first day he could have killed every BATF agent in 
sight had he not tried for nearly an hour to get a cease fire.  
The BATF of course refused him a cease fire until they were down 
to 40 rounds of ammunition among 100 men.

Koresh did not surrender and he did 
PB>      nothing to protect the kids.  He was a coward.

     I have seen a half dozen people correct you on this and yet 
you persist in repeating it without addressing the correction.  
That is not the act of an intelligent person.
     
PB>  KS> I do not believe that would ever have been allowed.

PB>     Kate, you and I watched Davidians surrender and none were
PB>     harmed.

     Except for the two we specifically know were murdered.  Or 
do you have another explanation for four rounds in the back of an 
unarmed man?  

PB>  KS>  He didn't need to write his own laws in this instance.  He 
PB>  KS>  had the Constitution behind him - for all the good that did 
PB>  KS>  him, or does any of us.

PB>      He did not have the Constitution or any other law 
PB>      behind him when he refused to surrender.

     There is no law requiring surrender.  How many times do you 
have to be told that?  Your actions are those of a very stupid 
person.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1283)
To:      Albert Quinn                            2 Jun 94 02:14:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  I have considered that if they had of knocked on the front 
AQ>  door, it might have ended differently but somehow I doubt 
AQ>  it.  

     Why do you doubt there would have been a difference?  Is not 
the difference between a knock on the door and going in throwing 
grenades and firing guns big enough for you to consider the 
outcome would have been different?  What would have been the 
possible pretext for shooting to have started if the government 
had not started it?

I meant there is no way that I will ever condone what 
AQ>  the BATF did but that doesn't mean that Koresh and his 
AQ>  followers would have wanted to end it any other way.  

     Koresh was the one begging for a cease fire while the BATF 
refused him.  I would suggest it was the BATF that had a 
particular outcome in mind.

I just 
AQ>  can't for the life of me figure out why anybody that 
AQ>  proffesses love for God would want all of that firepower.  

     Over half of it was in preparation for a gun show in Austin 
two weeks after the attack.  And perhaps, while you are at it, 
what possible business JC & Co. had with all those swords.  

AQ>  Of course anybody that teaches almost exclusively from the 
AQ>  book of revelations are in trouble before they start 
AQ>  because it has a very apocolyptic sense of what is going to 
AQ>  happen to the world and I don't know of anybody who can 
AQ>  interpret it properly.

     From the claims of the BATF and from events it is obvious he 
was a prophet.  The BATF even documented one of his successful 
prophecies in their warrant.  In one of his recorded phone 
conversations he claims to have known the government was going to 
come for him, and they did, and there is no way he could have 
forced the government to come after him.  

     From the available evidence it appears his status as a 
prophet put him in a better position than most to interpret it.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1285)
To:      Pete Bucy                               2 Jun 94 02:32:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  TL> Would YOU care to propose an invesitgatory structure for Waco?

PB>      I am satisfied with the FBI and the Justice Department 
PB>      report.  

     Neither of which you have read.  (Please state if you have 
as I have a small test for you.)  The government discredited the 
Justice Department report and the Treasury Report discredited the 
Treasury report.  Why would you be satisfied if no one else is?


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+++■■■■■ r_940607 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1289)
To:      All                                     2 Jun 94 15:40:10
Subject: Davidian Trial Transcript              

     At 3:00 EST on 2 June 1994, I spoke with Mr. Bowen, Clerk of 
Courts (817)754-7444, regarding a transcript of the trial of the 
Branch Davidians earlier this year.

     The answer was very simple.  No transcript would be prepared 
until and unless an appeal is filed.  This does not explain the 
lack of a response ot my request but it makes no difference at 
this point.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1290)
To:      Chris Baugh                             2 Jun 94 15:49:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve                    

CB>  MG>  There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the 
CB>  MG>  Federal Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal 
CB>  MG>  Reserve Notes (FRNs) we carry around and call money.

CB>  Matt, I'd welcome some more articles on this topic.  You 
CB>  might want to answer questions such as:
CB> 
CB>  Who is the Fed?  Is it a government agency?  What control 
CB>  does the Federal government have over the Fed?  What is the 
CB>  relationship between the Fed and the Dept.  of the Treasury?  
CB>  How do the actions of the Fed affect interest rates?  How 
CB>  do interest rates affect the economy?  Why are US Dollars 
CB>  no longer backed by precious metals? Why are they 
CB>  nonetheless one of the most popular currencies around the 
CB>  world?

     That article on what it actually does that affects the money 
supply just about exhausts what I know (other than claims of 
others usually relating to its sinister nature.)  

     With regard to those questions I can digress further.  Most 
of the answers are straight forward.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1291)
To:      Pete Bucy                               2 Jun 94 15:56:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>      Do you have anything more current? Both events that you
PB>  PB>      describe happened quite some time ago.  You aren't
PB>  PB>      living in the past like Jesse Jackson and Louis
PB>  PB>      Farrakhan, are you.  They both use the word "slavery"
PB>  PB>      like the institution was just abolished last week.

PB>  MG> Arresting a man, confiscating his property without trial,
PB>  MG> and charging him with a crime carrying two years and $100,000
PB>  MG> fine in an experiment to see if kangaroo rats will survive longer
PB>  MG> as a species if they are undisturbed.

PB>     I'm quite aware of this case in California. The problem lies
PB>     with the law, which is going to be upheld as totally
PB>     constitutional. I disagree with the law, but not with its
PB>     enforcement.

PB>  MG> That was in April 1994.  Recent enough for you?  (Of course
PB>  MG> you never heard of it and therefore it did not happen.)

PB>     I'm somewhat lost as to how you can equate this isolated case
PB>     with institutional slavery.

     I hardly made such an equation.  You asked for something 
more current and then you brought up how other people talked 
about slavery.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1292)
To:      Bill Bauer                              2 Jun 94 20:58:10
Subject: FYI RE SECONDHAND SMOKE                

BB>  But then, your xpost pretty well sums up to be much what I 
BB>  just posted to Paul Smith.  It is not how accurate it is, or 
BB>  whether or not it is truthful nor even how it will affect 
BB>  the lives of millions of other people that counts to the 
BB>  little Hitlers we have today who scream their theories with 
BB>  eyes uplifted to heaven as tho they were some kind of 
BB>  angels instead of the little Hitlers playing for a position 
BB>  of power over the lives of others.

     But now, for the third time the EPA has attempted to doctor 
their data and still has not been able to demonstrate there is 
any harm.  

BB> But Lester, it SSSSSTTTTTTIIIIINNNNNNNNKKKKKKS!

     They never seem to take into account that little Hitlers 
stink.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1293)
To:      Jack Wilder                             2 Jun 94 21:01:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR*****              

JW>  > BM>   surrender to avoid that eventuality.  But the presence or 
JW>  > BM>   absence of children shouldn't necessarily dictate tactics 
JW>  > BM>   in terms of a seige.

JW>  >      The operating manual of the FBI that was conducting the
JW>  > siege says that it should.  Explain.

JW>          Then why did they spend six hours pumping in gas 
JW>    that was KNOWN to kill children in 20 minutes to four 
JW>    hours??
JW> 
JW>          They didn't give a rodents behind about the 
JW>    children, and their actions proved that to be fact.

     Their intention was to kill the children as they used what 
amounted to deadly in a deliberate attempt to kill them.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1294)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 94 05:03:10
Subject: Ayoob Essay            01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: VICTOR DURA
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/31/94 - 0000368
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: raweis@law.ucla.edu (SCOTT WEIS)

The following essay is written by Massad Ayoob, the ranking sensei of
the defensive pistol.  Mr. Ayoob is not only the leading instructor and
instructor trainer in handguns, he is also heavily in demand as an
expert witness in lawsuits involving the use of lethal force, as well as
being a sworn police officer for almost 20 years.  Ayoob runs his
defensive firearms academy, Lethal Force Institute, in Grantham, New
Hampshire.  This essay was printed in the June, 1994 issue of Guns
Magazine.

Start essay:

I have been an activist for firearms rights all my adult life.  However,
only now have I begun to feel like a Jew in the Warsaw Ghetto.  Only now
have all of us American gun owners lived under a regime that has made it
clear that it would rather  our kind  did not exist, and which has
publicly dedicated itself to reducing our numbers.

Let us, for a moment, set aside the Second Amendment.  In the time of
political correctness, we need to address politically correct issues
before we talk about the fundamental cornerstones of freedom guaranteed
by our Constitution.

Do not speak to me of James Madison.  Speak to me of defamation. There
are Americans alive who can remember the Jim Crow years, when
African-Americans were stereotyped in cartoons as baboons or Stepin
Fetchit characters.  There was a time when Jews were portrayed as
hook-nosed, snaggle-toothed avatars of soulless greed.  Until very
recently, national newspapers and magazines ran cartoons that depicted
Arabs with vulpine features.

Except for racist hate literature, that sort of thing is gone from the
mainstream media of 1994.  Well, almost gone.

Caught some anti-gun political cartoons lately?  The gun owners and gun
dealers will be depicted as physically unattractive, dirty, unkempt, and
possibly keeping company with drug dealers.  Mario Cuomo, spoken of as a
potential Clinton appointee to the Supreme Court, has described hunters
as drunken slobs who lie to their wives about their whereabouts over the
weekend.  Cuomo s implicit caricature of us is a graphic example of how
we are seen by the  in crowd  that currently occupies the White House
campus.

We who own guns for personal and family protection are targets of
opportunity for this sort of slander and libel.  We have no  anti-
defamation league  of our own.  Shall we go to the American Civil
Liberties Union for help?  We shall receive there as much succor as the
victims of the pogroms would have received from the Hitler Youth.  In
both cases, the victims were not  politically correct,  and in both
cases, the organization in question would never have spoken against its
own candidate.

Do not speak to me of Thomas Jefferson.  Speak to me of civil rights.
President Clinton has spoken enthusiastically of the proposals by the
politically opportunistic mayors of our two largest cities to limit
handgun ownership with a scheme of  needs-based licensing.

History shows where they come from .  We ve seen it in their cities in
the issuance of permits to carry concealed handguns.  In the Los
Angeles of Mayor Riordan or the New York of Mayor Guiliani,
 needs-based licensing  has meant and still means, this: If you are a
Eurocentric white male with a lot of money, and preferably have
contributed money to the party in power, you have a need and we ll
consider giving you a license.

When that is applied to mere ownership o handguns, I think we all
know where it is going.  The Clinton-approved concept of needs-based
licensing for ownership discriminates against citizens, black, brown,
red and yellow.  It discriminates against the old, with their traditionally
fixed incomes, and against the sick and the crippled who need a defense
gun most, but are most likely to be burdened by the sort of medical
debt that the First Lady has so often decried.

Although those who would make the gun owners of America as extinct
in America as German Jews in 1944 Berlin would paint themselves as
the champions of the poor and the oppressed and the people of color,
the fact is in this nation that the yoke of poverty has fallen most heavily
on just those citizens.  It is they who are most likely to be trapped in
the pockets of poverty that the call the inner city, the places where
crime breeds.  It is they who are most likely to be preyed upon by
criminals.  It is they who most need the wherewithal to defend
themselves.

It is they who, cruelly and ironically, will be hardest-hit by the
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1295)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 94 05:04:10
Subject: Ayoob Essay            02              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: VICTOR DURA
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/31/94 - 0000369
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Continued from the previous message...
**
enormous guns and ammunition taxes proposed by the Clinton
administration and its supporters, taxes that would make the tools of
self defense prohibitively expensive for all but the rich and secure.
These proposed laws impact most brutally, sometimes with life or death
consequences, upon the poor, upon the victims of politically incorrect,
but nonetheless very real, discrimination.

Don t speak to me of the Minutemen at Concord and Lexington.  Speak
to me of sexism.  Who among today s electorate does not remember
the horror of the young woman ravaged by the  wilders  in Central
Park?  Would Mace or a rape whistle have worked for her?  Can any
mother of any daughter, no matter what her political beliefs, examine
the scenario and not wish that, if the daughter in question was hers, she
would have in hand a high-capacity semiautomatic pistol she knew how
to use?

The gun isn t know as the equalizer for nothing.  Nothing less will
balance the lethal disparity of force that the predatory male, alone or
in packs, can exert at will over the lone female.  How great would be
the hypocrisy of politically active women who worked to keep that life-
saving power away from their sisters and their daughters?

Don t tell me about the Second Amendment.  Tell me about the Fourth.
The one that supposedly preserves us from unlawful search and seizure.
The administration speaks of   banning  assault rifles.  Where the toe
has been dipped in those waters--New York City, and the New Jersey
of the same former Governor Florio who, insiders say, the President
wants to appoint as a  gun czar --the five year-old model of Great
Britain has been followed.  Expensive firearms are banned, citizens are
paid a few cents on the dollar for turning them into the government, or
nothing at all if they destroy their property.

Understand the horror!  For the first time in this nation s history, we
are talking about the confiscation of private property, lawfully
purchased and responsibly owned, without fair market value
compensation under the eminent domain principle!

 Eminent domain  says that if the Government determines that to
preserve the public good it must take your property, it must at least pay
current fair price to you before doing so.  Considering how many guns-
-some with more than a century of service in hunting fields and the
target ranges-- are involved, and how high the current readily-salable
retail has gone for AUGs and AR-15s and the like.  The Government
would have to spend many billions of dollars to compensate under the
eminent domain principle.  Billions that would save far more lives if
devoted to medical research or housing the homeless, or drug
interdiction, or feeding the hungry, or...

Finally, at the end, do speak to me of the Second Amendment.  Tell
me why this alone, amongst every other precious standard of individual
liberty in the entire Bill of Rights, should apply to auxiliary soldiers
when the rest speak to citizens one by one?

Don t be so blatantly stupid as to tell anyone who passed elementary
school American History that the Second Amendment was about the
National Guard.  In the time of American Revolution, the  national
guard  would have been Tories loyal to King George.  I do not think
that Madison and company felt a need to keep them armed.

The fight for the next three years goes to the heart of your freedom,
and that of you children and grandchildren.  It will not be fought with
guns and bullets.  It will only be about them.

It will be fought with political activism and common sense.  It will be
fought by reaching out to new allies, by forging coalitions of those who
have already learned the hard way the truth that those who ignore
history are doomed to repeat it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1312)
To:      All                                     4 Jun 94 05:37:10
Subject: Regulation                             

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  The Old Regulation Gambit
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/4>

     Some decades ago an amendment to the Constitution was
necessary to permit the US government to prohibit alcohol.  Yet
today the federal government can prohibit most anything it wants
to the same level of alcohol without the trivial necessity of
complying with the Constitution.  Did you ever wonder why?
     It is a trivial matter.  It all hinges upon one word.  The
substitution of "regulate" for "prohibit" even though there is no
substantive difference.
     The Federal Government has always has the power to levy
duties upon imported items.  That is in the Constitution.  It is
new that the federal government has asserted the power to
prohibit the importation of anything.  Where did this power come
from?  Regulation of course.
     Let me ask you this.  What is the difference between banning
something and regulating it to the point where there is no
difference from banning it?  There is a simple answer, 3/4 of the
states are required to ban something.  A simple majority in
Congress is all that is required to regulate something to the
same status as a ban.
     Am I the only one finding something wrong with this?  I find
no place in the Constitution giving federal government the power
to use regulation in place of a power it was not delegated.  
     I do find one thing in the Constitution.  A power to
regulate interstate commerce.  I find one other thing in Supreme
Court findings -- that anything any place in any state is
properly regulated as interstate commerce.
     It is not my intention to argue the ineffabilities of
Supreme Court decisions.  It is my intent to argue, regardless of
the decision, it is completely unacceptable and not to be
tolerated.
     Look at what this permits.  The federal government no longer
needs to comply with the Constitution.  All it has to do is
declare anything is to be regulated rather than be banned.  It
need not find a delegated power within to Constitution to FORCE
something to be done, it need only declare there is a need to
regulate it.
     Is the federal granted the power to control highway
standards?  Of course not.  Has it declared it has the power to
regulate highway standards?  Most certainly.  Where did it get
this power?  One Supreme Court decision.
     Can Congress claim control over your life?  Of course not.
But is has the power to regulate your life.  The federal
government can regulate your choice of cars, your choice of
entertainment, your choice of housing, your choice of clothing.
     If your self employed or an employer you know you are
regulated to the point of controlled by the federal government.
If you are an employee you are probably not aware of your
potential income without government regulation.
     Regulation vice banned applies it the ban of guns that are
falsely called assault weapons which are banned but it is legally
called regulation.  It is bad enough the law declares it has the
right to declare anything it wishes an assault weapon.  It is
worse that it declares the right to declare regulation is not a
ban.
     In the days of prohibition even Eliot Ness should not have
been able to buy a drink.  In these days of regulation it is
possible to exempt person or group the regulators choose.  It is
possible to ban anything the regulators choose while not having
to admit it is a ban.
     The federal government can quite clearly exceed any
imaginable delegated power simply by declaring it a matter of
regulation.  Does Congress want water fountains of a certain
height?  Regulate it.  Think that is funny?  Toilet seat heights
are now regulated for the handicapped even though it prevent many
handicapped from using them.
     More importantly the Congress can regulate things like
banking and intrastate commerce for states like New York and
Nebraska and declare the regulation being exactly the same.  Thus
a state where investments are in developed property must be the
same as the rules for farm land.  We have three choices here,
regulation favors New York, it favors Nebraska or it equally
harms both.
     Make up a list of what you truly and without sarcasm believe
the federal government is good at and what is bad at.  Compare
that list to the federal Constitution.  You will will find the
good column consists of the delegated powers and the bad column
is the regulated powers.
     Is the federal Government good at providing for the common
defense?  That is in the Constitution.  Is the federal government
good at regulating drugs?  That is not in the Constitution.
     Consider carefully what is an intelligently exercisable
power of the federal government and what happens when regulation
is substituted for a power.
     Unbridled regulation has been a disaster.  Delegated powers
have worked.
     Support your 10th amendment.  It may the be last chance we
have to avoid revolution.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1356)
To:      All                                     4 Jun 94 19:15:10
Subject: Another good cause                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Demonstration Regulation
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/4>

     Abortion demonstrations got out of hand.  Something had to
be done.  We now have specific laws governing abortion protests.
     It was done in a good cause.
     Of course there was harassment.  There were bombings.
There were even two murders.  That would certainly appear to
justify the special laws.
     Unless we consider it has been rather tame compared to
unions while on strike.  Not much different from the Vietnam
or civil rights protests either.
     Even though demonstrations are protected by the 1st
amendment as a matter of free speech it is reasonable to
have some minimal regulation simply to assure peace and
orderliness.  For example, if people wish to speak in public
parks it is reasonable to ban loudspeakers.  It is not reasonable
to ban loudspeakers only for particular subjects.  That we call
censorship.
     With demonstrations it is reasonable to provide regulations
that assure public access is not blocked save upon a specific
permit being granted such as to hold a parade or to for such a
large crowd in a park as to deny access to normal public use.
     What is not reasonable is to apply unique requirements to
demonstrations based solely upon what is being protested.  Thus
there is a large number of people, perhaps a majority, who are in
favor these unconstitutional laws because they are in a good
cause.
     I have written many times of the loss of rights in a good
cause.  Here is a clear and present good cause and loss of
rights.  Which side do you fall on?
     Rather I ask which good cause will approve of next time to
limit our right of free speech?  If these laws pass
Constitutional muster or even if they are simply allowed to stand
then we have taken another step toward the end of the right of
free speech.
     These steps have been coming slowly after decades of
establishing it completely.  It was effectively won against
censorship of pornography when the omnipotent "for the children"
argument was raised and there are dozens of draconian state and
federal laws prohibiting it.  Regulating, vice prohibiting, all
pornography has been argued and that form of regulation lost.
Now we have accepted strict censorship by type rather than by
nature.
     These are two steps to clear and offensive censorship,
limitations upon the freedom of speech by subject matter.  The
more often it is accept the easier it is to accept the next.
Watch for more to come.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1358)
To:      Kate Secrest                            4 Jun 94 20:55:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

KS> MG>      It appears reasonable that she kept quiet until there 
KS> MG> was such a connection.  It was only after that she tried to 
KS> MG> get her side of the story told to clear her name to her 
KS> MG> friends and one time co-workers.

KS>  Why does that appear reasonable.  Either she was sexually 
KS>  harrassed or she wasn't.  

     It appears she was willing to let it pass.  It had already 
been pointed out to her by Clinton that he knew her boss.

Isn't it sexual harassment that 
KS>  she's accusing Clinton of, not "ruining her reputation?"  
KS>  If all she's worried about is her damned reputation why 
KS>  isn't she suing the news/editorial magazine that published 
KS>  the story without checking for facts?

     The magazine simply reported the story it was told and as 
far as it goes it appears to be a factual recounting of what they 
were told.  If I remember the story correctly it did not include 
any description by the trooper of her statements upon leaving 
the room.  Therefore the magazine not only did nothing wrong but 
made the customary protection of privacy by using the first name 
only.

     The only out for the Clinton and the trooper is to show they 
actually did take a tumble which appears to be the substance of 
the case. 

KS> MG>      I first heard of her story in an article saying she had 
KS> MG> been turned down by several large newspapers.  It appears 
KS> MG> she did move expeditiously.  In this case we have a law suit 
KS> MG> filed in barely six months of a reasonable cause for taking 
KS> MG> action.  That is not an unusual length of time.

KS>  She waited 3 years to decide she'd been sexually harrassed 
KS>  by her boss.  She's not suing anybody responsible for any 
KS>  damned journal article.

     She was willing to let is pass for three years until her 
reputation was involved.  It seems like the adult thing to do.  

KS> MG>     Exactly the point.  There is no problem with his getting
KS>   >laid.  The problem is involving the troopers.

KS>  Nor, apparently, was there any problem with him wagging his 
KS>  wang in her face - at least not until recently.

     Maybe it took her this long to stop laughing at the size.  

     Consider some other factors.  

     She was not married at the time of the incident.  We can not 
say her marriage is old enough to necessarily withstand knowing 
she had been laid by the president.  That can be a consideration.

     The suggestion is that is only for the money.  The money 
would come in two forms, the judgement itself and the tabloids.  
The judgement amount would be the same as president or governor.  
The only difference is the tabloid money.

     The tabloid money would have been the same on election day 
as it was the day she announced an intention to sue over a year 
after the election.  As we have a year between the election and 
the story where she said not one word I am left with the 
conclusion that the story was the proximate cause of the lawsuit.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1420)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 94 04:20:10
Subject: Justice and vengence                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0099 - Law & Disor-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     Affordable Justice
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/5>

     [Nothing in the lead in examples have not happened.]
     You are driving down the road and you are stopped by the
police.  They imply if you do not give up your right to privacy
and permit a search of your car that you will be arrested, when
you have the right to drive away and give them the finger as you
do so.
     So you let them search the car.  They find in your briefcase
more money than they think you should be carrying, in this case
$9,000.  They take your money and your car and tell you to take a
hike.  You never hear from them again nor are you ever charged.
You ask for your money back and you are to go to hell.
     You rented a house to strangers and they were caught dealing
drugs.  Your house was confiscated but no charges were ever
placed against the renters.  When you ask for it back you are
told to go to hell.
     Your child is dying of cancer and to keep from starving to
death because of the chemotherapy induced nausea he grows
marijuana in the backyard.  You house is confiscated.  He is
never charged.  When you receive the eviction notice you complain
and are told to go to hell.
     Your venue of justice is the courts.  Your property (by a
deliberate and willful part of the law) has already been tried
and found guilty.  You must prove your property was innocent.
Given the cost of suits in law and our lack of universal legal
care is beyond the means of most people.  In fact it is beyond
the value of the property legally stolen in most cases.
     This is a Catch-22+1.  Are you insane enough to spend more
than the property is worth to recover the property?
     If you are not insane and wish to achieve justice what are
your options.  If you have lost a house or money you can hardly
steal it back as it was stolen from you.  If it involves a car if
you steal it back they will track you down and put you in prison
in your search for justice.
     As reality in the case of money and houses prohibits justice
and as the law punishes justice in the case of a car we are left
with simple vengeance.  Is vengeance justified?
     The law is not license to violate human right regardless of
the authority of the law.  A person exercising the authority of
the law has no more justification in doing so than saying he was
only following orders.  The devil made me do it and the law said
I could do it are identical statements.
     Thus in the absence of justice, vengeance is morally
acceptable.  Everyone from the law-makers down to the exercising
officer are equally open to vengeance for the immoral theft of
property.  The only question is the moral limits of vengeance as
related to the harm caused by following orders.
     As the consequences of the actions are what is being avenged
the excuse of not knowing the consequences is not a mitigating
factor.  Should a person suffer $9000 worth of harm due to the
action he certainly had the moral right, not the obligation, to
inflict at least that much loss upon everyone in the chain that
permitted the harm to happen.  If a car was lost then everyone in
the chain must lose a car of equal value.  If a house was lost
then everyone in the chain must suffer the loss of a house.
     The pursuit of justice in these cases has been relegated to
either insane or impossible.  To ask a person to accept the law
as written is like asking a Jew to accept Nazi law as written.
These laws violate the very foundations of the concept of justice
for social beings.
     Vengeance is not a simple matter these days.  Centuries ago
it was a family matter.  There were no questions asked about the
family's right to vengeance in any religion or creed.  Today we do
not have such cohesive family units.  We have become indeed the
ideal of the founders of this country.
     Our duty is to our fellow American.  When one is harmed, all
are harmed. 
     When there is a loss for lack of justice then all Americans
have the moral obligation to avenge that loss.  
     We have a moral obligation to inflict that loss on anyone
even remotely involved in that loss unless he has personally
disavowed the execution of that law.  (And I note every oath of
office requires the execution of all laws.)
     It is clear that Americans have the moral authority to
avenge unjust laws against everyone in the government and in
kind.
     As to "in kind" we have the right to break into homes and
shoot to kill.  This government has done it to us, our fellow
Americans.  Forget Waco, look at Weaver, entrapment and kill his
family.
     Unless and until the government disavows those actions and
brings the perpetrators to justice we are all morally sound in
avenging their deaths upon every government employee including
elected and appointed officials who have done nothing.
     We are now at the point where if we do nothing it will get
worse.  If we do nothing it can only get worse in a different
manner and we have the chance of it getting better through our
efforts. 
     That may require a few house and car bombing and a few dead
federal employees.
     We only have moral authority when we are responding to
matters where justice is for all practical purposes impossible.
     Unfortunately this criteria will be forgotten.


                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1423)
To:      Mike Naimark                            5 Jun 94 04:51:10
Subject: FYI RE SECONDHAND SMOKE                

MN>      Perhaps you would care to enlighten this ignorant 
MN>  little net as to the effects of free radicals generated by 
MN>  smoldering hexane derivatives (of which tobacco contains 
MN>  near 100) when in contact with biological membranes?
MN> 
MN>      I believe the process is generally called 'Cross 
MN>  Linking', in which the elastin protein becomes linked into 
MN>  the inflexable molecule desmosin.  In the lungs, it limits 
MN>  O2 exchange and in the extreme case, is called emphesyma.
MN> 
MN>      I'm not even going to get into acetylaldehyde, 
MN>  polyaromatic hydrocarbons, or the high levels of lead and 
MN>  arsenic in tobacco.

     Have you truly missed the posts here reporting the fraud 
upon which the entire second hand smoke is based?  Or are you 
pretending to re-open the issue by playing dumb?

     No matter what you want to imagine there is no, zilch, nada, 
absolutely NO evidence of any harm.

     Imagined harm will not cut water.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1424)
To:      John Clifton                            5 Jun 94 04:57:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP                           

JC> JC>        Nonsense.  There won't be a Presidency if John Q.  
JC> JC>   Citizen can tie up the office holder with a civil suit.

JC> >      They can not do so for any action taken while in 
JC> >  office.  That is only correct because of a law exempting the 
JC> >  president.  A new law may be passed but this case stands by 
JC> >  the very wording of the law protecting while in office.  If 
JC> >  Congress had intended to do it it could have easily said 
JC> >  "before and while in" office.  They did not.

JC>       Can you see some judge locking up Clinton for not 
JC>  showing up in court when he claims he's involved in 
JC>  pressing government business?  It ain't gonna happen.

     I do not see the relevance of your question.  A judge has no 
authority to make a personal determination on the matter.  He can 
only deal upon the law.  As for the "pressing government 
business" approach that should work twice, three times at most, 
and that will result in a max three month delay.  

     The counter argument is that he is in charge of what is 
pressing and what is not.  It looks very hollow real fast unless 
he starts a war.

JC>       In a practical sense, any President could delay a 
JC>  civil suit for his or her entire term.  You're spinning 
JC>  your wheels with this VP stuff.

     If you take a serious look at his agenda you will find it is 
mainly ceremonial.  Kissing a Girl Scout and shaking hands with a 
constituent are not pressing government business.   And, as I 
said, if he finds at some point he can not give full time to his 
job that IS the reason we have a VP.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1431)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 94 07:12:10
Subject: From the internet                      

 *********** Original       To: MIKE RIDDLE
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0019 - Law-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

MR>          "When personal freedom's being abused, you have to 
MR>          move to limit it."
MR>                         - U.S. President Bill Clinton, 1994

     A quick trip to the wall is most appropriate.  I not think 
Vietnam veterans will object if we use their wall.  The only 
question is if Hillary joins him for a last cigarette.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1432)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 94 07:32:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Ollie North for US Senator

     Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He lied to 
Congress.  Give me an break folks.  Is their anyone willing to 
say Congress has never lied to us?

     I really do not want to hear that line again. Congress has 
always been the most lying public institution in America.  If 
there is any problem with Ollie North I want to see every other 
liar in Congress crucified first.

     I hope this is clear enough.           


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+++■■■■■ r_940609 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1267)
To:      Mark Phillips                           6 Jun 94 21:09:10
Subject: Waco                                   

MP> MG>       Deaths that occur during the course of the commission 
MP> MG>  of a felony are considered murder.  The use of military 
MP> MG>  equipment was a felony.  Therefore there were over eighty 
MP> MG>  murders.  How many times do I have to point this out?

MP>  Well you may as well STOP right now, because it WAS not 
MP>  murder what the BATF did, it was suicide by the Branch 
MP>  Looney Toons.

     First off, it was the FBI.  Second, it is still felony 
murder even if suicide.  Do you not remember the weeks of psych 
warfare that drove them insane?  

     However, there is as much evidence for suicide as for the 
tanks knocking over the lanterns.  That you have concluded it 
was suicide is something you got from your own imagination not 
from the evidence.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1268)
To:      Pete Bucy                               6 Jun 94 21:13:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>  MG>  There is no law requiring surrender.  How many times do you 
PB>  MG>  have to be told that?  Your actions are those of a very 
PB>  MG>  stupid person.

PB>      Matt, I'm going to take that last comment in the spirit 
PB>      that it was given.  I am not stupid.  I do not live in a 
PB>      state of paranoia where I see Elvis and the BATF behind 
PB>      every bush.
PB> 
PB>      I don't give a damn how many times you tell me that 
PB>      there are not laws on the books that required Koresh 
PB>      and his followers to surrender.  To argue such a point 
PB>      is so absurd, so inane, that it borders on mental 
PB>      illness.
PB> 
PB>      Your grasp of law as it is practiced in America on a 
PB>      daily basis is far below normal.

     Cite the law.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1269)
To:      Pete Bucy                               6 Jun 94 21:15:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>       I am satisfied with the FBI and the Justice Department 
PB>  PB>       report.

PB>  MG>  Neither of which you have read.  (Please state if you have 
PB>  MG>  as I have a small test for you.)  The government 
PB>  MG>  discredited the Justice Department report and the Treasury 
PB>  MG>  Report discredited the Treasury report.  Why would you be 
PB>  MG>  satisfied if no one else is?

PB>      Then who is investigating the reports, the FBI, or the 
PB>      BATF? 

     Now we have your open admission.  You are satisfied with 
reports you have never read.

PB>      It appears that no news gathering organization, 

     Again, you are ignorant of event.  Both the New York Times 
and Newsweek have investigated and labeled the FBI report a 
whitewash.  

PB>      or government agency, Federal, 

     The prosecution in the Davidian trial (i.e., from the 
Justice Department) objected to the contents of the Justice 
report and found it untruthful, that is, he objected to its use 
as evidence at the trial.

     Of course the FBI report discredited the BATF report.

     That is two news organizations and the Justice department 
who are unsatisfied with both reports.

PB>      Only you and a handful of conspiracy buffs have any 
PB>      interest in this issue.  I never hear it mentioned any 
PB>      more except on this echo.

     You don't get around much.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1270)
To:      All                                     6 Jun 94 23:42:10
Subject: A Peaceful Revolution                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  A Peaceful Means of Revolution

     I have been asked several times how to avoid a violent 
revolution.  The obvious answer was to stop the government 
sources of income but to continue its outlay of money.  The 
obvious means still required some level of violence.

     A consideration of the sources of income of the government 
and how to stop those led to the rediscovery of a method proposed 
some 35 years ago for the same objective.  I do not have the 
writing style of Ayn Rand (many say I should be grateful for 
that) but the book is Atlas Shrugged.  

     The method is to stop the wheels of the world.

     The source of the government's income is directly tied to 
the condition of the economy.  A nice, prolonged deliberate 
recession is will drastically reduce the government's income 
while at the same time greatly increasing its expenses.  And not 
one life need be lost.

     And if anyone thinks what I am going to propose is "too 
hard" they have no idea how hard a violent revolution will be.  
Everyone who has thought of revolution should be jumping at this 
(or something like it) rather than be imagining a quick jaunt to 
DC in September to get things over with.

     What are your minimum requirements for living?  Literally, 
the minimum requirements.  Adjust your income to no more than 
that.  That cuts off the taxes on your income.  You are also 
producing less so there is less economic activity.  Every drop in 
economic activity is a drop in revenues for the government.

     Are you eligible for any form of government assistance 
whatsoever?  Forget your pride and apply for it.  You will not be 
lying, you have a low income now and are entitled to the 
assistance.  When that comes in, get a lower paying job and apply 
for more assistance.
     
     Can the government's response be forced productivity?  Can 
they make you work at a more productive job?  They can not 
control your mind.  The government is powerless against this form 
of peaceful revolution.

     The result will be a recession where the government will be 
spending itself into bankruptcy faster than it is now.  Consider 
the government's usual cure for a recession is to spend more 
money.  Great!  Get in line for some of it.  Then they will spend 
more.  Don't lose your place in line.

     You can't do it to your family?  But you were thinking of 
going out and risking death weren't you?  You think that would be 
a lesser impact?  (Only you can answer that.)  

     Your children are college age?  Perfect, the less you make 
the more the government will pay for their educations.  You 
certainly don't need that big house any more.  Take your equity 
and buy a smaller house outright.  That reduces the banking 
business and you are not creating income for a landlord to be 
taxed.

     Learn to cook your own food again.  The fewer processing 
steps involved the fewer people to tax. 

     You need medical care?  Apply for Medicaid.  Use the 
emergency rooms.  That is what they are there for.

     Consider you don't need a new car every few years.  Public 
transportation isn't that bad and keeping a junker alive saves 
you a lot of insurance money and reduces the economy.  And never 
forget that public transportation pays no taxes and runs at a 
loss.

     If people condemn you for doing this, remind them of the 
opportunities you have given them by dropping out of the 
competition for jobs.  Let them step in and fill the void you 
have left. 

                              Matt Giwer
                              Dunedin Florida
                              

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1358)
To:      Todd Rourke                             6 Jun 94 01:43:10
Subject: WACO                                   

TR>  MG>  More simply.  If they had intended to become martyrs why 
TR>  MG>  would they have called for help and tried to arrange a 
TR>  MG>  cease fire?

TR> Very good point.

     And if they had intended to kill why did they not come out 
and mop of the BATF and then call 911 with "a little problem" out 
here?

     The people were the classic "prepared for the worst and 
hoping for the best" type.  I can name a lot of people like that 
and it has nothing to do with guns.

     The one and only suggestion they might have been violent is 
that one of the members was a mailman.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1359)
To:      Stewart Harris                          6 Jun 94 01:57:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

SH> >->      Neither of which you have read.  (Please state if you 
SH> >-> have as I have a small test for you.)  The government 
SH> >-> discredited the Justice Department report and the Treasury 
SH> >-> Report discredited the Treasury report.  Why would you be 
SH> >-> satisfied if no one else is?

SH>  This entire concept of "I agree that what the BATF did was 
SH>  wrong, but Koresh .  .  .  " is a national phenomenon of those 
SH>  who feel the government can do no wrong, no matter what is 
SH>  proven.
SH> 
SH>  I recently had a discussion about a case down your way in 
SH>  1970 -- and I will be you can guess what it is without me 
SH>  telling you -- 

     Actually I came here in 91 so I have no idea.

where a person I was debating agreed with 
SH>  the fact that the Military -- the CID  -- fabricated a 
SH>  photo in a murder investigation.  Her logic followed this 
SH>  line:  "Agreed, they did fabricate the photo, but that does 
SH>  not change the fact that he killed his family."  She also 
SH>  agreed they suborned a witness, but that didn't change 
SH>  anything.

     It is reminiscent of the very poor satire on this week's 
Star Trek:  The Space Station of Cardasian justice.  (Apologies, 
others in the family like it.)  The conviction is announced 
before the trial starts and the trial is only to confirm the 
conviction.  

     There is a more recent case from Arkansas.  A hotdog got on 
the scene first and shot the wrong person dead.  He left the 
building when the good guys showed up and they shot him.  
Realizing the compound errors, they burned the building and 
stonewalled the evidence that was obviously contradictory to the 
official story -- that the hotdog had be shot by the person who 
was not suspected of a crime.

SH>  People like this do not comprehend the concept of due 
SH>  process guaranteed in the Constitution.

     If they did not comprehend it they would not be so diligent 
in giving the appearance of providing it while working to 
circumvent it.  

     It is in the category of Clinton's order's to find a way 
around the 4th amendment.

SH>  Matt, save one pol for the archives; shoot the rest!

     I do not know if you realize just how close the country is 
to doing that.  As a result the US is going to sink to the status 
of the Soviet Union.  It is not a pleasant thought.

                      413 days after Waco
                  The murders are still free. 


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1360)
To:      All                                     6 Jun 94 04:23:10
Subject: Coors                                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1229 - Environment-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     I reported some months ago that in response to the Coors ad 
on TV to "send us your name" I did so and that they sent me a 
Christmas card.  I have been remiss in the follow up.

     About six weeks ago I received in the mail a Colorado Spruce 
seedling from Coors.  I planted it in a pot and it is doing well.

     I do not think Florida will be kind to this tree but I 
intend to give it a shot.  (The Tampa Bay area essentially has a 
"monsoon" season from July to October.)

     In any event if you like free trees, next time you see the 
ad, send them your name.


---
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+++■■■■■ r_940610 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1469)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 94 07:01:10
Subject: Big Brother Still Listeni              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0000 - GENERAL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: ROGER CRAVENS
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/06/94 - 0001065
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0000 - GENERAL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  *********************************************************************
*   The folowing is a copy of a message posted to My UnKnown BBS.   *
*********************************************************************
========================================================================
As someone involved in the telephone industry on the level of security
and data integrity... I would like to inform everyone that uses modems
and/or are bbs operators of some information.

The first thing that everyone that uses a modem should know is that
every time you fire up your modem your activating monitoring equipment
somewhere in the U.S.  I have worked for several large telephone
networks that routinely monitor and reroute modem and fax transmissions
through devices that allow them to view what is being transmitted and
even decodes encrypted data and fax packets used by major corporations
and governmental agencies.  This is allowed under the heading of
"Maintenance Monitoring" and may be continued for up to 6 months without
the need of any legal paperwork being generated.  Under an obscure
pre-WWII ruling by the agency that is now the FCC... "No information may
be encoded or transmitted over PUBLIC or PRIVATE forms of telephony or
radio with the exception of those agencies involved in the National
Security" a further designation goes on to say "with the exception of
the MORSE system of 'transmittal', any communication that is not
interpretable by the human ear is forbidden and unlawful."  The
information gathered goes to 3 seperate database facilities...1 is
codenamed Diana and is located in Brussels, the 2nd is named Fredrick
and is located somewhere in Malaysia, the 3rd is named Elizabeth and is
located in Boulder, Colorado.  The information stored in these systems
is accessable by the US Government, Interpol, Scotland Yard and various
other such agencies.  Your credit rating is also affected by your modem
usage... if you ever get a copy of your credit history and find a
listing that has HN06443 <--= this is a negative risk rating. or a code
87AT4 <---= an even more negative risk rating.... these will usually
have no description on them... and if you inquire about them they will
tell you that it just comes from the system that way. I am currently
working for another major carrier as a consultant and have been able to
watch these systems operate...at one unnamed long distance carrier here
in Columbus Ohio in their NCC, Network Control Center, you can see
several rows of computer terminals which have approximately 30 to 40
separate windows in each... these windows have data transmissions that
are being monitored... banks of 9 track tapes are going constantly to
record everything.  Everyone should realize that even if a sysop posts a
disclaimer at the beginning of his bbs about no access to governmental
agencies or law enforcement...that it isn't worth the time it takes to
type it in... looking forward to hearing reactions to this.
--- * SLMR 2.0 * * My Castle BBS 614-236-4015 10pm to 10am M-F 6pm-6pm S-S
---
 * RM 1.3 01261 *                Barney Must Die!
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1477)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 94 08:02:10
Subject: Revolutionary Objectives               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                Objectives of the Revolution
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/7>

     Just what do we want out of this?  We are calling for a
revolution.  I have pointed out all we need to pledge are our
sacred lifestyles to get it bloodlessly.  
     What will be considered the capitulation of the the present
government?
     First and foremost, NO representative of the people will in
any manner be considered superior to any other.  No more
committee chairmen.  No more seniority.
     Second, the end of all political parties.  They are the root
of the violation of our Constitution.  I have pointed out Bush
ran upon fulfilling the obligations of the position of President.
Bill Clinton ran upon a party agenda.
     Sorry.  No place does it say we are voting for a party
agenda in my copy of the US Constitution.
     Third, any and all organizations are prohibited from
lobbying any Congressman.  We have more than enough
representatives at the local level to deal with them directly as
citizens.  No group shall have the power to speak more loudly
than a citizen.  Therefore, no groups, period.
     Fourth, a Constitutional Amendment shall be submitted to the
states holding that the power to regulate interstate commerce
granted to Congress shall be strictly limited to that which
crosses state boundaries.  It will not longer be permissible to
hold "affecting" such commerce is grounds for the passage of a
law.
     Fifth, Congress shall present for ratification an amendment
holding its power to direct compliance shall be strictly limited
to prohibitions only.  There shall no longer be directed
compliance in any action.
     Sixth, Congress shall present for ratification an amendment
holding it may never withhold any funding based upon compliance
that is not directly related.  While it will be possible to
withhold highway funds on condition of compliance with highway
specifications it will no longer be possible to withhold them
based upon the drinking age or seat belt laws.
     Seventh, Congress shall pass legislation hold null and void
any and all prior legislation in violation of any of the above
six items.  This shall not be by line item which would take years
but a broad determination of nullity.
     This should do it.  It is succinct as I can make it.  If
anyone has an addition please let me know.
     If people are willing to proceed with the economic shutdown
as I have outlined then when enough agree they are satisfied with
three out of six or five out of six the shutdown will end


---
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+++■■■■■ r_940611 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1383)
To:      All                                     8 Jun 94 20:45:10
Subject: Texas Const                            

 *********** Original       To: TED DODD
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

TD> Before you ask:

TD>  Sec 23: Every Citizen shall have the right to keep and bear 
TD>  arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the 
TD>  Legislature shall have the power, by law, to regulate the 
TD>  wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
TD> 
TD>  Sec 29: To guard against transgressions of the high powers 
TD>  being delegated, we declare that everything in this "Bill 
TD>  of Rights" is excepted out of the general powers of the 
TD>  government, and shall ever remain inviolate, and all laws 
TD>  contrary thereto, or to the following provisions, shall be 
TD>  viod.

     Actually I have just found a source of the Bill of Rights 
equivalent for all the 50 states' constitutions.  I can not 
present this in a manner I would like unless some inspiration 
strikes me.  (It always does but I may not live long enough.)  

     What I have seen from a quick sample of the original 13 
through the median to the last two I find no substantive 
difference.  (I will be working to demonstrate that point to the 
skeptics.)  

     I hit maybe 12 states in my reading.  They were all equal to 
or stronger in their statement of the protections of rights than 
the federal constitution.  The wording varies a little even when 
it adds no more protections.  This applies to EVERY item I could 
identify in the exercise.

     Granted I was not exhaustive.  However I believe I sampled 
everything of interest WITHOUT the deviations I expected.  I had 
envisioned once getting a file of these constitutions it would 
take forever.  At this point I can not get up the interest to be 
exhaustive given the similarities I have found by surprise.

     Looking backwards at the dates of adoption of these 
constitutions I can not explain why I expected to find 
differences.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1384)
To:      Theresa Grant                           8 Jun 94 21:09:10
Subject: Davidian Trial Transcript              

TG>  My best friend is a Superior Court court reporter, and 
TG>  about 2 years ago they stopped allowing her to transcribe 
TG>  from tape to paper unless an appeal was filed, or an 
TG>  attorney involved with the case expressly requested one.

     I remember the change but until I find someone (or can 
reconstruct the memories -- unlikely) who was part of the change 
I will generally agree with you.  I remember my objection was 
that transcripts were automatic and the price was fixed an that 
that should not have been changed.

TG>  It is my understanding that this is because A) the court 
TG>  reporter can read back from the tape, whether it is actual 
TG>  "tape" or data transformed into a computer diskette via her 
TG>  transcriber and B) it was costing taxpayers obscene amounts 
TG>  of money not only to have the documents transcribed but 
TG>  also stored.  Apparently, if an attorney desires he can 
TG>  request a transcription of every court session WHILE THE 
TG>  CASE IS BEING HEARD for no charge, but afterwards there is 
TG>  a hefty fee paid by the attorney or other requesting legal 
TG>  party.

     The issue is a bit different.  Most simply freelancing this 
trial would be a very profitable operation.  I mentioned that my 
last live in (or maybe I was hers) is a transcriptionist.  She is 
also published twice on medical spelling reference books.  

     Does not the guarantee to a public trial imply the official 
trial records are public?  It was hardly ever a matter that the 
next of kin could listen in.  Rather that anyone, the vigilant 
public could know what happened.  Why can it not be freelanced?  
Were we still live in's we would be discussing the financial 
opportunities.  (I turned out to be pretty good at it.  We could 
sell a day at a time with two days lag for the cost of a 
duplicate tape purchase.)

TG>  Just a little bit of info before people got into the cloak 
TG>  & dagger stuff...  Not that it wouldn't be NICE to have 
TG>  transcripts readily available for federal cases.  :>

     No problem but I think I know the market for this trial and 
the pricing structure.  When you are self employed profit is 
truly a concept only understood by accountants.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1385)
To:      John Clifton                            8 Jun 94 21:40:10
Subject: Lawyer Matt fired?                     

JC> >      It appears she was willing to let it pass.  It had 
JC> >  already been pointed out to her by Clinton that he knew her 
JC> >  boss.

JC>       Whoa, there...  she has *alleged* that Clinton made 
JC>  this statement to her.

     The only issue at the moment is whether or not she "ran 
away" or "sucked his cock."  The primary issue of the felonious 
conversion of the troopers to personal use is not in question.  
The trooper agrees it happened.

JC> >  She was willing to let is pass for three years until her 
JC> >  reputation was involved.  It seems like the adult thing to 
JC> >  do.

JC>       Jones claims her reputation is at stake, yet sues over 
JC>  the alleged incident itself...?  Why?  Because *she* is the 
JC>  one damaging her reputation by bringing the "incident" to 
JC>  everyone's attention.  Her claim to be chiefly concerned 
JC>  with her precious reputation rings hollow.

          You obviously missed the national article that 
identified her. 

JC>       Mongoose Paula isn't suing over her reputation because 
JC>  she would have to go after the magazine.

     The magazine followed the Supreme Court accepted standards.  
That would be a waste of money.

JC> >  say her marriage is old enough to necessarily withstand 
JC> >  knowing she had been laid by the president.  That can be a 
JC> >  consideration.

JC>       Did she mention the alleged incident to her husband 
JC>  long before deciding to go public?  

     I have no idea.  What have you heard?

If she's looking for 
JC>  understanding from her husband, she now has to explain to 
JC>  him why she never said anything.

     More the impetuous to preserve a new marriage.

JC> >  The suggestion is that is only for the money.  The money 
JC> >  would come in two forms, the judgement itself and the 
JC> >  tabloids.  The judgement amount would be the same as 
JC> >  president or governor.  The only difference is the tabloid 
JC> >  money.

JC>       If she wins, the tabloid money will far exceed the 
JC>  palty sum she seeks in court.  Even if she loses, the 
JC>  amount may gets may be considerable in any event.

     And if she wins, she preserves her marriage.  I find that a 
viable justification.

JC> >  The tabloid money would have been the same on election day 
JC> >  as it was the day she announced an intention to sue over a 
JC> >  year after the election.  As we have a year between the 
JC> >  election and the story where she said not one word I am 
JC> >  left with the conclusion that the story was the proximate 
JC> >  cause of the lawsuit.

JC>       The cause of the lawsuit could be her latching onto 
JC>  what seems to be a golden opportunity to obtain tabloid 
JC>  money.

     It was EQUALLY valuable on election day.  It only started 
after the article.

JC>       This case *smells* bad and you haven't made much of it 
JC>  here.  Either her case is weak or you should be fired as 
JC>  her advocate.

     I am not her advocate.  I only address nonsense as it 
occurs.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1386)
To:      Joe Williams                            8 Jun 94 21:54:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

JW>  >                     Ollie North for US Senator

JW>  >       Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He 
JW>  >  lied to Congress.  Give me an break folks.

JW>  He committed a felony - THAT was his crime.  He also 
JW>  destroyed evidience.  It was because of congress (his 
JW>  immunity) that he is not in jail.

     A felony only exists upon conviction.  The allegation of 
destruction of evidence is that he did it in front of 
investigators.  That is hardly a valid claim.  

     If Congress gave him immunity, certainly they deserve one of 
their own in return.  I do not see that a failure to give 
Rostenkowski immunity would make a difference.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1387)
To:      Jane Barnhardt                          8 Jun 94 22:15:10
Subject: Ollie North for Sena                   

JB> MG>       I really do not want to hear that line again.  Congress 
JB> MG>  has always been the most lying public institution in 
JB> MG>  America.  If there is any problem with Ollie North I want 
JB> MG>  to see every other liar in Congress crucified first.

     Your laundry list has been long addressed.

JB>  Ollie North didn't just lie to Congress...

     That is the only charge.

he lied to the 
JB>  American people (the REAL government here) 

     There is no such crime.  If so all elected officials would 
be charged with it.  And if not, you know they are lying and you 
would object to an honest liar rather than an dishonest liar.

JB>  He has admitted his guilt and should not be allowed to hold 
JB>  ANY office, where he has control over our money, etc. 
     
     The election process is not a matter of shoulds and should 
nots.  The election process holds anyone elected can be seated 
save for explicit constitutional grounds.

 I 
JB>  have written my Congressman several times over various 
JB>  bills, etc., but they vote what they want to anyway, so 
JB>  please don't tell me that that is the way to deal with 
JB>  this...I live in Virginia and DO NOT want North to 
JB>  represent me in any way...
     
     Your choice and your vote.  Clinton does not represent me in 
any manner and that is hardly a criteria.  I would certainly send 
Ollie to Congress, a liar to the master liars.  In their face is 
the least I can say for it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1388)
To:      Pete Bucy                               9 Jun 94 00:27:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>  MG> That was in April 1994.  Recent enough for you?  (Of course
PB>  PB>  MG> you never heard of it and therefore it did not happen.)

PB>  PB>     I'm somewhat lost as to how you can equate this isolated case
PB>  PB>     with institutional slavery.

PB>  MG> I hardly made such an equation.  You asked for something
PB>  MG> more current and then you brought up how other people talked
PB>  MG> about slavery.

PB>      He broke the law.  You might not like the law, but it is 
PB>      totally legal.  The government can protect kangaroo rats 
PB>      just as easily as it can protect whales, dolphins, and 
PB>      spotted owls.

     I knew you were not that bright but I really thought you 
might have the common human decency to admit a law that puts a 
rat before a human is an unjust law.

     You have no such humanity.  

     Have a better one.


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+++■■■■■ r_940612 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1436)
To:      All                                     9 Jun 94 18:39:10
Subject: Waco interest                          

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


June 1 1994 [received 9 June 1994]

[from] Department of Justice [by letterhead and envelop]
Criminal division

Mr. Matt Giwer
1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin, FL 34698

Dear Mr. Giwer:

     This responds to your letter to the Attorney General 
                                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
concerning the Branch Davidians and David Koresh.

     Let me begin by saying that although the President would 
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
like to respond to all citizen correspondence he receives, his 
extensive, official duties preclude him doing so.  Since the 
Department of Justice deals with the criminal justice system, his 
staff forwarded your letter here for response.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     On February 28, 1993 the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
Firearms ("ATF") attempted to execute arrest and search warrants 
at the Branch Davidian compound outside of Waco, Texas.  A 
shootout ensued, during which four ATF agents were killed and 15 
agents were wounded.  For 51 days, federal agents attempted to 
negotiate with David Koresh for his surrender and the release of 
all those inside, including the children.  This standoff with 
federal agents ended tragically with a fire at the compound on 
April 19,1993.

     We recognize that the tragedy resulting from this situation 
has resulted in concern and anguish throughout the country.  
However, since the Branch Davidian matter is the subject of an 
ongoing investigation, any further comment by the Department 
would not be appropriate.  Thank you for sharing your views.

                         Sincerely,

                              /s/

                         Karen Tinkham, Chief
                         Correspondence Staff
                         Executive Office

=====

     It also my 13 April 1994 took a very circuitous route 
to get to the Justice Department.  I do not explain it.

     I would also have to ask just what the ongoing negotiations 
might be over.

     This is the original letter.

=====

                          13 April 1994

Janet Reno
Attorney General
Department of Justice
Washington DC 20530


Dear MS Reno,

     I have been waiting a year now for you to do your job
regarding Waco.  I am disappointed you have not done it.
     The BATF announced it had planned the raid in advance.  It
announced it moved up the date by one day of the attack only
because of a compromise of security.  The warrant would have
been dead on the day they planned the attack.
     This is conspiracy to violate civil rights.  It is a crime
worth ten years.  You have done nothing to pursue this crime.
     When do you plan to do your job?


                          Respectfully,




                           Matt Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1437)
To:      Grant Karpik                            9 Jun 94 19:23:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

GK> MG>                     Ollie North for US Senator

GK> MG>       Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He 
GK> MG>  lied to  Congress.  Give me an break folks.  Is their 
GK> MG>  anyone willing to  say Congress has never lied to us?

GK> Wonder how Bobby Seals' family would answer....

     Is he running?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1438)
To:      Dave Christian                          9 Jun 94 19:27:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

DC>  MG>  Congress has always been the most lying public institution 
DC>  MG>  in America.  

DC>  I am willing to say that Congress has never lied to us.
DC> 
DC>  Numerous (too many to count) CongressMEN have lied to us, 
DC>  but never the institution.

     It is trivial to point out that Congress is an institution 
and can not speak.  However, it is no better than it's 
spokesrats.  And thus we agree.

DC>  And regardless of anyone's opinion of the people serving in 
DC>  Congress, the institution of Congress is the very 
DC>  cornerstone of our form of government and, in one truly 
DC>  supports democracy, it must be respected.

     It happens to exist because we, the people, suffer its 
continued existence.  That is why people before us created it -- 
for their own benefit.

DC>  Oliver North did not respect the institution.  He used it 
DC>  to serve his own interested.

     Please.  He was offered immunity in hopes he would 
incriminate Reagan.  Who used what?

DC>  I agree with you.  Crucify every liar in Congress.

DC>  But don't use the actions of those who are unfit to serve 
DC>  in this great institution 

     You sound like you are a congressrat.

stand as a basis to allow another 
DC>  who is not only unfit, but has proven that he lacks respect 
DC>  for the most powerful institution of our form of 
DC>  government, to enter as a member.

     And keep Rostenkowski.  I love the reasoning.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1439)
To:      Chris Baugh                             9 Jun 94 19:32:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve                    

CB>  Sure, digress away.  I don't know much about the Fed, and 
CB>  maybe I should learn more about it.

     It is in my "to do" pile.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1440)
To:      Albert Quinn                            9 Jun 94 19:35:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>      Why do you doubt there would have been a difference?  
AQ> MG> Is not the difference between a knock on the door and going 
AQ> MG> in throwing grenades and firing guns big enough for you to 
AQ> MG> consider the outcome would have been different?  What would 
AQ> MG> have been the possible pretext for shooting to have started 
AQ> MG> if the government had not started it?

AQ>  Do you have any proof that the government started it and is 
AQ>  there any evidence that it would have ended any 
AQ>  differantly?

     What does the end have to do with the start?  If they had 
not gone in shooting there would certainly have been a different 
start.

AQ> MG>      Koresh was the one begging for a cease fire while the 
AQ> MG> BATF refused him.  I would suggest it was the BATF that had 
AQ> MG> a particular outcome in mind.

AQ>  And to what end would they want to end it the way it 
AQ>  ended?

     If they had wanted a violent end they would not have tried 
to get a cease fire.  They could have simply kept up the shooting 
and when the BATF was out of ammunition (they were down to 40 
rounds -- their statement -- when they agreed to a cease fire) 
and then gone out and wiped them out to a man.  Then the could 
have called 911 and reported a "problem."  

     Sorry, you are justifying your preconceived conclusion.

AQ> MG>      Over half of it was in preparation for a gun show in 
AQ> MG> Austin two weeks after the attack.  And perhaps, while you 
AQ> MG> are at it, what possible business JC & Co.  had with all 
AQ> MG> those swords.

AQ>  What about the other half and if like you say they were for 
AQ>  a gun show, why was there so much amunition so readily at 
AQ>  hand?

     What of the rest of it?  It was their home.  If you want to 
talk averages even including the children, they had fewer guns 
than I do.  As to ammunition, I have no idea what you are talking 
about.  I have watched three tapes of Waco and I have not seen 
one sign of any return fire. 

     If it had not been on the 911 tape ("now we are") there 
would be no evidence they fired a shot.  The early reports of the 
autopsies of the agents indicated they died of friendly fire.  
Considering they were firing blindly (watch any of the tapes) 
that is hardly surprising.

AQ> MG>      From the claims of the BATF and from events it is 
AQ> MG> obvious he was a prophet.  The BATF even documented one of 
AQ> MG> his successful prophecies in their warrant.  In one of his 
AQ> MG> recorded phone conversations he claims to have known the 
AQ> MG> government was going to come for him, and they did, and 
AQ> MG> there is no way he could have forced the government to come 
AQ> MG> after him.

AQ>  That was not prophecy, that was an informant that told him 
AQ>  and besides you would not have to be a prophet to know that 
AQ>  somebody was going to try to arrest you in that situation.

     Of course the reference to the LA riot was a successful 
prophecy.  It was dated before it happened.

     As to the exact situation, how could he have known they 
would not knock on the door?  How could he have known they would 
come in shooting?  He must be a prophet.

AQ> MG>      From the available evidence it appears his status as a 
AQ> MG> prophet put him in a better position than most to interpret 
AQ> MG> it.

AQ>  Why would you say that.  

     Because the BATF at least has documented him as having a 
direct pipeline to god in being able to predict the future.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1441)
To:      Albert Quinn                            9 Jun 94 19:47:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>      And be the first.  Tell us all what they were planning 
AQ> MG> -- other than to take over half the guns recovered to a gun 
AQ> MG> show in Austin that is.

AQ>  And what were they going to do with the other half and why 
AQ>  did they have all of the amunition so readily at hand?

     They were also kept in a locked room as is the responsible 
thing to do.  

     I repost the following just for you.

                           No Carrier
                               by
                           Matt Giwer  (c) 1994

     A new danger is sweeping over the land and it started in 
Texas.  A cult of religious fanatics has moved out of a small 
compound and is ravaging the countryside as I write.  At first 
they appeared to be harmless working stiffs but then they moved 
out of their compound like a voracious band of army ants.
     All forty men have already reduced Waco to ashes and have 
taken Houston hostage.  Dallas is under siege as we speak.
     They are easy to identify.  Each man is carrying five rifles 
and 25,000 rounds of ammunition.  If you see someone fitting this 
description in your neighborhood call your governor immediately.  
If necessary, call the President.
     Their leader is a modern day Svengali who practices advanced 
mind control techniques over his followers.  Over one hundred 
men, women and children follow him with slavish devotion.  He has 
used his hypnotic eye to rob them of their will.  He is rumored 
to be an ex-CIA agent.  
     Be warned!  He is out to control your mind.
     It is rumored he has sex with women who are not his wife and 
even worse they have borne his children.  The modern mind must be 
aghast at such behavior.  
     And his intentions in all of this?  To find the meaning of 
the seven seals in Revelations.  Can you imagine a more 
frightening or horrible objective?
     Most frightening it is rumored they have collected the 
makings of low grade fireworks and 30 to 50 deadly assault 
cardboard tubes.  The mind boggles at the havoc they could wreak 
with these.
     I urge you.  Arm yourselves.  Look your doors.  Do not leave 
your home unless absolutely necessary.  
     This threat will not dissipate soon.  Lay in provisions.  
The very future of the country is at stake.
     Take no chances.  If they are carrying a bible, shoot to 
kill.  This is your last warning.  They are attacking this BBS as 
I type.  ****g**r*-F*G**{* NO CARRIER

=====

     You tell me what they were going to do with so many guns.  I 
would certainly like to know also.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1442)
To:      John Clifton                            9 Jun 94 19:55:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP                           

JC> >  As for the "pressing government business" approach that 
JC> >  should work twice, three times at most, and that will 
JC> >  result in a max three month delay.

JC>       Nonsense.  The President can cry "national security" 
JC>  and it would have to be dem CongressCritters who put a stop 
JC>  to it.

     The law will have to be changed.  At this point I do not 
think he has the party support to keep his ass out of court. 

JC> >  The counter argument is that he is in charge of what is 
JC> >  pressing and what is not.  It looks very hollow real fast 
JC> >  unless he starts a war.

JC>       Cardboard Clinton looks hollow enough (mixing 
JC>  metaphors) already.  The GOP, I predict, will just let him 
JC>  twist in the wind and wait, wait, wait for 1996--or, 
JC>  alternatively, for something better to come along.

     The impressive record so far is 9 for 9 victories for the 
REPs.  All they do is campaign against Clinton.  1994 is the time 
the president's party traditionally loses seats.  It is 
conceivable they will lose the House.  It is certain they will be 
in a weaker position in both houses -- as if they were not weak 
enough now.

JC>                             * * * * *

JC> JC>       In a practical sense, any President could delay a
JC> JC> civil suit for his or her entire term.  You're spinning
JC> JC> your wheels with this VP stuff.

JC> >     If you take a serious look at his agenda you will find it
JC> > is mainly ceremonial.  Kissing a Girl Scout and shaking hands
JC> > with a constituent are not pressing government business.

JC>       BUT....  when the day to go to court comes around, he 
JC>  can suddenly find something important to do.

     If the judge is a democrat.  


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+++■■■■■ r_940623 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1234)
To:      Bob Klahn                              11 Jun 94 19:58:10
Subject: FROM THE INTERNET                      

BK> MR>>          "When personal freedom's being abused, you have to
BK> MR>>          move to limit it."
BK> MR>>                         - U.S. President Bill Clinton, 1994

BK>   Sounds like something a republican would say.  Come to 
BK>   think of it, I do believe many have said something like 
BK>   this.  One might even say just about every law restricting 
BK>   some form of behavior is based on this principle.

     Vote Libertarian.

BK>   My bet is most veterans are less disturbed by BC's draft 
BK>   record than most non-veteran Clinton critics.  I usually 
BK>   ask anyone commenting on this to state his own military 
BK>   affiliation, just for the record, you know.

     The response I have been getting is along the lines of using 
the wall in this manner would disgrace it.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1235)
To:      Bob Klahn                              11 Jun 94 20:01:10
Subject: GAYS N' GUNS R' US ?                   

BK>    As much as I loath the Jerry Falwells of this world, I 
BK>   find destroying their ability to express thier opinions 
BK>   contemptable.  What can be done to one can be done to all.  
BK>   The right wingers can break any number of enviornmental or 
BK>   social activist organizations using the same technique.  
BK>   How would it be if a Aids fundraiser were subjected to 
BK>   this? The National Wildlife Federation? Even the United 
BK>   Negro College Fund, by some group opposed to equal 
BK>   opportunity? We're all vunerable.

     Sounds like a fine idea to me.  Shut them all down.  I have 
proposed that and more.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1236)
To:      John Clifton                           11 Jun 94 20:05:10
Subject: Lawyer Matt fired?                     

JC> >      The only issue at the moment is whether or not she "ran 
JC> >  away" or "sucked his cock."

JC>       Oh, please--Clinton has said it didn't happen.  He 
JC>  gets his day in court, too, doesn't he?

     Clinton said he was not at the hotel.  Then that he did not 
have a room.  Then that she did not come to the room.  Then he 
got an attorney who told him to shut up.

JC> >  The primary issue of the felonious conversion of the 
JC> >  troopers to personal use is not in question.  The trooper 
JC> >  agrees it happened.

JC>       And BAF agents claim the Waco Massacre was entirely 
JC>  the fault of the Branch Davidians.  Right?

     ANY use of public funds or what is provided by public funds 
by a public official for personal purposes is a federal crime.  

     Is there something about that which is unclear?

JC> >  You obviously missed the national article that identified 
JC> >  her.

JC>      It didn't mention her full name, did it?

     Not to the public but to her friends and one times work 
associates.

JC>                             * * * * *

JC> JC>      Mongoose Paula isn't suing over her reputation because
JC> JC> she would have to go after the magazine.

JC> >     The magazine followed the Supreme Court accepted standards.
JC> > That would be a waste of money.

JC>      Precisely.

     Which is why there is no suit against the magazine.

JC>                             * * * * *

JC> JC>       If she wins, the tabloid money will far exceed the
JC> JC> palty sum she seeks in court.  Even if she loses, the
JC> JC> amount may gets may be considerable in any event.

JC> >     And if she wins, she preserves her marriage.  I find that a
JC> > viable justification.

JC>       You figure her hubby is dangling it over her head:  
JC>  "Win or you're history, bitch?"

     I have no idea.  It is a recent marriage.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1237)
To:      Bob Klahn                              11 Jun 94 20:15:10
Subject: OLLIE NORTH FOR SENAT                  

BK>  MG>                     Ollie North for US Senator

BK>  MG>       Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He 
BK>  MG>  lied to Congress.  Give me an break folks.  Is their anyone 
BK>  MG>  willing to

BK>   He sold weapons to a self declared enemy of the US.  If he 
BK>   did this without presidential orders this constitutes 
BK>   giving aid and comfort to the enemy.  This is the 
BK>   definition of treason.  

     The last time I heard that required a war to be in progress.

If he did this in defiance of 
BK>   orders this consitutes mutiny.  If he did it under 
BK>   presidential orders this constitutes stupidity.  Not only 
BK>   did he comit a serious crime, but he didn't even 
BK>   accomplish his goal of gaining the release of US hostages.

     Congress gave him immunity, not me.  Congress is also the 
group that was so upset over him trying to free hostages.  Looks 
like you did not want them released either.

BK>   BTW, the charge was not just lying to congress, but lying 
BK>   under oath, perjury.  

     That ia untrue.   He was not under oath at the time.  And 
charge was exactly "lying to Congress" which is a different law.

In addition, he was the first marine 
BK>   officer in history to take the fifth ammendment.  He was a 
BK>   disgrace to the corps.

     He has retired.  

     Now he goes to Congress.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1238)
To:      John Clifton                           11 Jun 94 20:20:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

JC> > JW> He committed a felony - THAT was his crime.  He also
JC> > JW> destroyed evidience.  It was because of congress (his
JC> > JW> immunity) that he is not in jail.
JC> >
JC> >     A felony only exists upon conviction.  The allegation of
JC> > destruction of evidence is that he did it in front of
JC> > investigators.  That is hardly a valid claim.

JC>       He lied to Congress and, convicted or not, that's 
JC>  enough for me to write him off.

     Congress lies to us every day.  He should fit in perfectly.

JC>        How can you defend North when you take the high road 
JC>   on Slick and his sleeze?  The "H" word springs readily to 
JC>   mind...

     North had legitimate objectives, freeing hostages and 
getting rid of a communist government.

     Clinton is a professional politician.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1239)
To:      Mark Phillips                          11 Jun 94 20:27:10
Subject: Waco                                   

MP> MG>       First off, it was the FBI.  Second, it is still felony 
MP> MG>  murder even if suicide.  Do you not remember the weeks of 
MP> MG>  psych warfare that drove them insane?

MP>  Actually the fact that they were foloowers of this nut case 
MP>  speaks for itself, they were already insane from his 
MP>  teachings...

     So far as I am aware there has been no such psychological 
evaluation or finding by any professional who met with them.  You 
are making it up.  Do not expect anyone to accept it simply 
because you imagine it.

MP> MG>       However, there is as much evidence for suicide as for 
MP> MG>  the tanks knocking over the lanterns.  That you have 
MP> MG>  concluded it was suicide is something you got from your own 
MP> MG>  imagination not from the evidence.

MP>  Sorry there Matt, but, all they had to do was walk out the 
MP>  first day it started and it would have been over, but 
MP>  because they decided to stay and die with LoonyToon Korseh 
MP>  makes it a sucide....thats the facts!

     On the first day, after the cease fire, the BATF murdered 
two of them who were outside.  The first day was obviously not 
the day to leave.  

     And as you know they had no reason to leave.  The government 
said they were willingly to wait them out.  You do remember the 
government announcing that don't you?

     And as you use suicide in you own unique and personal manner 
you are not communicating.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1240)
To:      Neal Atkins                            11 Jun 94 20:35:10
Subject: Waco interest                          

NA> MG>      On February 28, 1993 the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
NA> MG> Firearms ("ATF") attempted to execute arrest and search 
NA> MG> warrants at the Branch Davidian compound outside of Waco, 
NA> MG> Texas.

NA>  Even now they can't get their lies straight.  There WERE NO 
NA>  ARREST WARRANTS when the raid started.

     They have bought into their own stories.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1241)
To:      Bob Klahn                              11 Jun 94 20:39:10
Subject: XTIANS                                 

BK>  MG>      Prophecy has been fulfilled!  Praise Allah!

BK>   Had you been truly familiar with Islam, and a believer, 
BK>   you would have said, "Praise God".

     There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his profit.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1242)
To:      Lester Garrett                         12 Jun 94 03:49:10
Subject: Waco                                   

On 06/09/94 LESTER GARRETT to PETE BUCY on Waco

LG>   what's more you have the chutzpa to so state after you've 
LG>   been busy wrongly asserting that Koresh and his henchmen 
LG>   were responsible for filling all those "bullet riddled" 
LG>   bodies (all 18 of them) full of holes while at the same 
LG>   time asserting that none had been crushed to death.

     Do not forget, Koresh shot himself in order to prevent 
himself from escaping.

LG>  Do you happen to work for the government, Pete?

     IQ references are flames.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1243)
To:      Albert Quinn                           12 Jun 94 03:54:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> JW>   and I don't know if you have any REAL information, or not) 
AQ> JW>   it is COMPLETELY LEGAL to own EVERY ONE of the weapons 
AQ> JW>   found at the church.

AQ>  There were allegations that they were taking legal 
AQ>  semi-automatics and turning them into illegal fully 
AQ>  automatics.

     Not in the search warrant.  But you know that.

AQ> JW>         Tell us exactly what law they broke.  PLEASE try to 
AQ> JW>   do a little research, and stop watching Canned Negative 
AQ> JW>   News!

AQ>  First point I do not rely for my version of the news on CNN 
AQ>  as most of the time they are too conservative for me.  Next 
AQ>  point, and these are only allegations of course as he could 
AQ>  not be charged and convicted as he is no longer with us.  

     Nice try at a dodge.

AQ>  What about the act of polygamy as that is still a crime in 
AQ>  this country, 

     You know the BATF has no authority.  Why bring it up?

AQ>  and the allegations of child abuse, although 
AQ>  I will admit that earlier ones were dropped, and there is 
AQ>  still the matter that some of his "wives" were as young as 
AQ>  11 or 12 and that is still a crime anywhere.

     You know the BATF has no authority.  Why bring it up?

AQ> JW>         They (in the personna of Paul Fatta) were in the 
AQ> JW>   BUSINESS of buying, repairing, and SELLING weapons for 
AQ> JW>   profit.  MANY churches run for profit businesses, and the 
AQ> JW>   BDs thought that there would be good profit in firearms 
AQ> JW>   since one of their members was expert in their repair.

AQ> See above.
     
     There is nothing above where the BATF has any authority 
whatsoever.  

     But since you think it does, please explain why the use of 
deadly force is permitted in bigamy and child abuse cases.  

AQ> JW>         Are you against anyone making a profit on guns, or 
AQ> JW>   just those that you disagree with in your liitle corner of 
AQ> JW>   religion??

AQ>  Yoou are getting knd of personal here as you do not know my 
AQ>  religion.  I have nothing against anyone owwning guns and I 
AQ>  don't care what your religion is.  The only time I am 
AQ>  against anyone making a profit is when it is done at 
AQ>  somebody elses expense like when followers that worked 
AQ>  outside had to turn theiar paycheques over to the Branch 
AQ>  Davidians and the people on old age pension also turned 
AQ>  them over.

     Would you please document the source of your fantasies 
regarding the financial arrangements within the compound?  Please 
be either specific or admit your are posting your personal 
fantasies.

AQ> JW>        They were found innocent of breaking any law, other
AQ> JW>  than those laws that were broken in the defense of their
AQ> JW>  lives.

AQ>  That is not true as there were a lot of allegations and 
AQ>  charges agaainst the group and Koresh but they can never be 
AQ>  proved as the expired when he did.

     There were ONLY the fantasies of a BATF agent (of your 
mental equilibrium) against a person and group.  He perjured 
himself to obtain the warrant.  You know the warrant was 
perjured.  Why do you continue to pretend otherwise?

AQ>  A couple of other questions that I would like to ask you 
AQ>  are:
AQ> 
AQ>  1) Why did he let all of the other children go except for 
AQ>  the ones he fathered?

     Since when is this a crime?

AQ>  2) And finally why did he allow himself luxuries that he 
AQ>  denieed to the rest of his followers like; beer, meat, sex, 
AQ>  air conditioning, and T.V.? And why did his followers allow 
AQ>  it except that they were not allowed there free will after 
AQ>  awhile?.

     The survivors have denied everyone of those allegations.  
And even if true, what made that the business of the BATF and why 
was it not mentioned in the warrant?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1244)
To:      All                                    12 Jun 94 04:06:10
Subject: Waco with a difference                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Every few months I get involved in the Waco debate enough to 
feel the need to re-post this reply.  I think it continues to 
have bearing on the on-going discussion.

===

LW> What do you think the FBI should have done?  What are your
LW> credentials?

     Frankly good sir, I have no credentials other than what I
have observed in circumstances similar to what the government
claims them to have been.
     But I am glad you finally asked.  Not me, but close enough.
     One of the first things you do in a potential suicide
situation (vice the hostage situation the government was falsely
claiming) is to get every family member possible to make the most
emotional plea and assurance possible that they must NOT commit
suicide because they are loved and they will be given the best of
treatment.
     What is not done, absolutely not done, is arrest hostages.
OK, perhaps the government does have an interest in keeping tabs
on them, so they are given "house arrest" with family and
regularly show that on TV and report it on radio without showing
the guards outside the house.
     What you do not do is provoke a case where the attorneys of
the arrested hostages can go to court, claim they are being held
without charges in violation of the constitution, hear that
denied and the appeal of that denied.  You do NOT let people hear
that IF they surrender they will be arrested and held without
charges with a cellmate named Bubba.
     You do make those who come out as happy as possible and make
that the offer for those who leave.
     In line with this you do NOT arrest the parents and forcibly
separate them from their children and consign them to foster
homes of strangers.
     All this does is send the solid message, "This WILL happen
to you!"
     What else do you do with a potential suicide?  You do not,
repeat not, provide any self fulfilling prophecies.  That is, you
never reinforce the suicide's reasons for suicide.  So the word
should have been, "This was a tragic misunderstanding.  We need
to work it out.  You have to understand our position we can not
walk away but we will offer you a situation similar to what you
have now while awaiting it going to trial."
     And as to how?  Real simple.  Surrender your weapons and
allow our guards inside to supervise.  In return the gov would
return power and offer monitored but unlimited phone access.
They would provided non-handcuffed passage to and from
arraignment and trial.
     What the government did to was present a "final
confrontation between good and evil" situation to them,
reinforcing their beliefs.  And it was a confrontation and yes it
was final.  Yes, the government reinforced their beliefs, the
last thing one does in a suicide situation.
     =====
     The problem with going any further is that there is only one
other MAJOR scenario which is that of a hostage situation.  There
are no parallels to this kind of "hostage" situation.  A hostage
is always taken or forcibly restrained and used as a bargaining
chip with the authorities.  Their own children definitely were
not either taken nor forcibly restrained.
     Since there was no hostage situation there is no way to say
what should of should not have been done regarding hostages.

     =====

     The Religious Fanatic scenario is about mid way between the
psychotic and the suicidal case.  However in this case one does
not ever fulfill prophecy.  One does as many things that
contradict prophecy as possible.

     What one does do is put it back to a purely civil matter and
NEVER EVER attack their religious beliefs as was done regularly
in press releases and news conferences.  One does not call a true
believer a nutcase any more than one directly challenges a
creationist and expect acceptance.

     =====

     So let us go on to the minor violent psychotic scenario.
What the government does NOT do is to insult a violent psychotic
much less a group of them.

     In that vein one does not say they are hiding behind
children.

     They do not say they are hiding behind women.

     Since women were joining the cult independently one does not
insult female psychotics by saying the men are hiding behind them
when they are bragging as to which woman got which government
bastard.

     So what should have been done?  A total and complete scare
campaign, a war of nerves, random gun fire in the middle of the
night, blanks or the real thing through the wall above head level
(that is what snipers are for but if they are truly psychotic
sometimes you have to penetrate a few skulls.)

     This is better known as the snake pit treatment.  If in fact
they are truly psychotic (which I am not proposing) then
demonstrating the penalty of the psychosis they have chosen is
the best way to handle it.

     =====

     Let us go on to the child abuse allegation even though it is
not a Federal matter and never has been.

     Child abusers are most commonly into open denial or blaming
it on the children.  One does not openly confront a child abuser
with his behavior unless in control of the situation.

     Rather the government should have treated them as very
normal parents -- all of them.  And then assure them the
allegations would be handled by the appropriate state
authorities -- but in the mean time ... come up with something
appropriate like regular visitation by social workers, perhaps a
couple of live in social workers just to be sure, plenty of
options to negotiate.

     =====

     Going on to the methamphetamine lab allegation ...

     =====

     No, I will not go into that one or any other.  I have
covered the major ones the gov has floated more than once and the
drug lab was so absurd they never repeated it.

     So what could the government have done?  I would suggest it
is very simple, whatever is appropriate to what they really
believe as opposed to what they said.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1245)
To:      Jolene Post                            12 Jun 94 17:48:10
Subject: Big Brother Still Li                   

JP>  MG> ********************************************************************* 
*
JP>  MG> The folowing is a copy of a message posted to My UnKnown BBS.   *
JP>  MG> *********************************************************************
JP>  MG> 
=======================================================================
JP>  MG>  = As someone involved in the telephone industry on the 
JP>  MG>  level of security and data integrity...  I would like to 
JP>  MG>  inform everyone that uses modems and/or are bbs operators 
JP>  MG>  of some information.

JP>  Why in the world would my use of a modem effect my credit 
JP>  rating?  And would it effect mine or my husband's, since 
JP>  the phone is in his name and not mine, but I'm the one that 
JP>  stays on it the most.  Plus I use the modem at work, so 
JP>  does my employer's credit rating get hurt too?  Can someone 
JP>  verify this?

     You have the same questions I do.  That is why I am 
spreading it around.  So far the responses I have received say it 
is nonsense.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1246)
To:      Jolene Post                            12 Jun 94 17:54:10
Subject: Smoking                                

JP>  --=> Paul Smith spoke to MATT GIWER about Smoking <=--

JP>  PS>   Imagine the difference to our national health care costs 
JP>  PS>   if we eliminated the tobacco related illness and death.

JP>  MG>      Because then ex-smokers would life forever with 
JP>  MG> completely disease free lives.

JP>  PS> huh?

JP>  Never more will I get sick?  I won't EVER get cancer, won't 
JP>  EVER get heart disease, and all I have to do is quit 
JP>  smoking?
JP> 
JP>  :::sounds of cigarette packs being crumpled up and tossed 
JP>  in the can::::
JP> 
JP>  Okay Matt, I quit....now where's my certificate that says 
JP>  I'll live a completely disease free life from now on?
JP> 
JP>  Can't find it?  Wonder why.....

     PS gave it to you.  

     I would have told you smokers tend to die younger and of
faster diseases and have an overall lesser cost to the system.  
Any rational nation concerned about health care costs would 
encourage smoking.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1247)
To:      Pete Bucy                              12 Jun 94 17:58:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>      Then who is investigating the reports, the FBI, or the
PB>  PB>      BATF?

PB>  MG> Now we have your open admission.  You are satisfied with
PB>  MG> reports you have never read.

PB>      I have heard on the new that no criminal charges are to 
PB>      be brought against either the BATF or the FBI regarding 
PB>      the Waco incident.  What else do I need?

     You have not heard that just as you never read the reports 
which you were satisfied with.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1248)
To:      Daniel Villarreal                      13 Jun 94 21:56:10
Subject: Waco                                   

DV> MG>      I have seen a half dozen people correct you on this and 
DV> MG> yet you persist in repeating it without addressing the 
DV> MG> correction.  That is not the act of an intelligent person.

DV>   Actually, David had sent out 1,000 bux for milk for the 
DV>  children.  The gov't doesn't tell you that, though.  I'll try 
DV>  to get some more information on that.

     The more you can find the better.  I want to create the 
file.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1249)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 Jun 94 21:57:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>       He broke the law.  You might not like the law, but it 
PB>  PB>       is totally legal.  The government can protect kangaroo 
PB>  PB>       rats just as easily as it can protect whales, 
PB>  PB>       dolphins, and spotted owls.

PB>  MG>  I knew you were not that bright but I really thought you 
PB>  MG>  might have the common human decency to admit a law that 
PB>  MG>  puts a rat before a human is an unjust law.

PB>  MG> You have no such humanity.

PB>      Matt, take the tin foil out from under your hat.  I 
PB>      merely said that the government has the right to pass 
PB>      such laws.  The are totally legal and Constitutional.  
PB>      Once again you are confusing your emotional 
PB>      interpretation of how America should be run with how it 
PB>      really functions.

     If you need a copy of the US Constitution I will post one.  

     If you do not read it would you kindly cite the part of it 
where the government is delegate that power?  Please be specific.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1250)
To:      Linda Terrell                          14 Jun 94 02:45:10
Subject: Clinton scandal                        

LT> DL> There is evidence, Danny Ferguson for one, the person that
LT> DL> escorted Paula Jones to Bill Clinton's motel room

LT>    Was Ferguson IN the hotel room when Clinton allegedly waved

     Yes.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1251)
To:      All                                    14 Jun 94 02:50:10
Subject: a Wasted President                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Since you were born can you possibly imagine discussing the 
variations of the president's penis before now?

     18 months ago could you have imagined Waco? 

     This slime bucket is dead meat.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1252)
To:      Jeff Welch                             14 Jun 94 02:55:10
Subject: More linda thompson                    

JW>      2)  The unorganized militia, which consists of the 
JW>          members of the militia who are not members of the 
JW>          National Guard or the Naval Militia.
JW> 
JW>  So, the only way Thompson could be a member of the militia 
JW>  is if she were a commissioned officer in the National 
JW>  Guard, and then only in the *organized* militia.
JW> 
JW>  The current title she claims is "Acting Adjutant General, 
JW>  Unorganized Militia of the United States."

     In her context she is correct.  

     I can not debate the call to arms in any rational manner.

     I CAN deal with in detail this fallacious call.  

     The "shot heard round the world" was not a staged event.  It 
was a response.  I think very, very little of this.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1253)
To:      Todd Rourke                            14 Jun 94 03:20:10
Subject: Regulate...                            

TR>      WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The American Medical Association Tuesday
TR> called on the federal government to regulate tobacco as an addictive
TR> drug.

     You left out the magic words.  That the incidence in real 
numbers is statistically insignificant.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1254)
To:      Pete Bucy                              14 Jun 94 03:25:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>     I feel like I have entered the Twilight Zone sometimes when I
PB>     am on this echo. If what you say is true, "that there is no
PB>     law that required Koresh to surrender to the BATF or the
PB>     FBI;" then there are no laws that require anyone in America
PB>     to surrender to any other law enforcement officer.

     There may be in the states but the Federal government has 
failed to pass such a law.  They were under siege by the federal 
government.  I think that is clear enough.

PB>      Thus neither drunk driver, suspected child molester, 
PB>      nor suspected bank robber would be required to 
PB>      surrender when told to do so by the police.

     More of this stupid shit?  The FEDERAL government has NO 
jurisdiction over such matters.

PB>     Kate, do you know how silly that sounds? Really?

     Do you not realize how ignorant you sound?

PB>  KS>  And apparently your grasp of the many illegal actions of 
PB>  KS>  law enforcers that occur on a daily basis is also far below 
PB>  KS>  normal.

PB>      Then how can a law enforcement officer demand that 
PB>      anyone surrender? "Lee Harvey Oswald, we demand that 
PB>      you leave the book depository and surrender to the 
PB>      police." No sir, I don't have to surrender, David 
PB>      Koresh told me so.
     
     Your ignorance is overwhelming.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1255)
To:      Pete Bucy                              14 Jun 94 03:30:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>      Kate, I watched them surrender on TV.  CNN reported when 
PB>      it happened and showed them being taken to jail.

          And you watched them held without charges.

     

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1259)
To:      Todd Rourke                            14 Jun 94 18:53:10
Subject: A Peaceful Revolution                  

TR> TR>        Are you eligible for any form of government 
TR> TR>   assistance whatsoever?  Forget your pride and apply for 
TR> TR>   it.  You will not be lying, you have a low income now and 
TR> TR>   are entitled to the assistance.  When that comes in, get a 
TR> TR>   lower paying job and apply for more assistance.

TR>  I'm sorry.  One of the things we are fighting AGAINST is 
TR>  the ever-increasing, all-pervasive, government teat.  I 
TR>  don't see how anyone who has a conscience could possibly 
TR>  attempt to fight tyranny by purposely cozying up to that 
TR>  very government teat - to agree to ASK the government for 
TR>  money, food, housing, etc.  You can NOT fight to restore 
TR>  individual liberty, while giving up your individual 
TR>  responsibility.
TR> 
TR>  Tell Mr.  Giwer that he's lost it.

     When the enemy gives you a weapon to beat him over the head 
with who would fail to use that weapon?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1260)
To:      Grant Karpik                           14 Jun 94 18:55:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

GK> On Jun 09 at 19:23
GK>  Matt Giwer wrote to Grant Karpik
GK>  regarding: Ollie North for Senator

GK> GK> MG>                     Ollie North for US Senator

GK> GK> MG>       Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He
GK> GK> MG>  lied to  Congress.  Give me an break folks.  Is their
GK> GK> MG>  anyone willing to  say Congress has never lied to us?

GK> GK> Wonder how Bobby Seals' family would answer....

GK> MG>      Is he running?

GK> No, as I'm sure you already know, he's dead.

     Do you think he will be elected?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1261)
To:      Albert Quinn                           14 Jun 94 18:56:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>      What does the end have to do with the start?  If they 
AQ> MG> had not gone in shooting there would certainly have been a 
AQ> MG> different start.

AQ>  Maybe a different start but it is my belief that if there 
AQ>  was a different start then Koresh would have been 
AQ>  disappointed as he would not get the ending that he was 
AQ>  seeking.

     Just what is it you think he was seeking that he could not 
have had the first day?

AQ> MG>AQ> MG>       Koresh was the one begging for a cease fire while the 
AQ> MG>AQ> MG>  BATF refused him.  I would suggest it was the BATF that had 
AQ> MG>AQ> MG>  a particular outcome in mind.

AQ>  If you had read any of his sermons or writing then you 
AQ>  would have realized that he looked on himself as the lamb 
AQ>  of God and that he wanted all his followers to prepare to 
AQ>  fight to the death all of the unbelievers.

     What does this have to do with him calling for the cease 
fire?

AQ> MG> and when the BATF was out of ammunition (they were down to 
AQ> MG> 40 rounds -- their statement -- when they agreed to a cease 
AQ> MG> fire) and then gone out and wiped them out to a man.  Then 
AQ> MG> the could have called 911 and reported a "problem."

AQ>  Anybody that acted the way the BATF did in the face of the 
AQ>  knowledge that they had of what was happening in the 
AQ>  compound and the fact that they were waiting for them and 
AQ>  the ATF still went ahead with their plans deserves to be 
AQ>  wiped out.  For terminal stupidity if nothing else.

     You, the BATF and the FBI have all failed to demonstrate 
there was any reason to think anything was waiting for the BATF.  
This includes all court testimony.  You are implying things of 
which no one has knowledge.

AQ> MG>      What of the rest of it?  It was their home.  If you 
AQ> MG> want to talk averages even including the children, they had 
AQ> MG> fewer guns than I do.  As to ammunition, I have no idea what 
AQ> MG> you are talking about.  I have watched three tapes of Waco 
AQ> MG> and I have not seen one sign of any return fire.

AQ>  From what I have read, the original reason the BATF was 
AQ>  involved at all was because there was reports that the BDs 
AQ>  were in the process of converting legal semi-automatic 
AQ>  weopons into illegal fully automatics but what cowboy came 
AQ>  up with the plan they finally went with is anybody's 
AQ>  guess.

     They said there was a suspicion they were doing so without 
paying the $200 transfer tax.  That is not supported in the 
search warrant.  In fact the warrant contains at least one 
obvious perjury.  So what justified these actions?

AQ> MG>      If it had not been on the 911 tape ("now we are") there 
AQ> MG> would be no evidence they fired a shot.  The early reports 
AQ> MG> of the autopsies of the agents indicated they died of 
AQ> MG> friendly fire.  Considering they were firing blindly (watch 
AQ> MG> any of the tapes) that is hardly surprising.

AQ>  I have seen some of the video that was shot during that 
AQ>  raid and I do not think after watching it that you can say 
AQ>  there is no evidence that the BDs fired a shot or kiled 
AQ>  anyone as the couple I saw fall could not have been hit by 
AQ>  blue fire as it would have had to be deliberate murder and 
AQ>  I don't think even the BATF is that stupid.

     You don't think the BATF is stupid and you saw the tapes.  
You know the warrant mentions grenades, in fact a shipment of dud 
grenades is given as the proximate cause of the investigation.  
You saw the BATF clustered behind cars firing blindly or at 
anything the moved, specifically into the second floor where the 
women and children lived.

     Tell, is it or is it not stupid to be in clusters when there 
is a concern for grenades?  Is it intelligence to be in clusters 
when concerned with automatic weapons?

     As for the shooting, I have watched the tapes.  There is not 
ONE broken windshield, not one bit of dirt being kicked up, not 
the slighest evidence they are under fire save they are behind 
the cars.  Can you tell me what you saw that indicated they were 
under fire?

     And I have to ask just where you saw a tape of anyone 
actually being hit?  You are the first person to make this claim.  

     As to how they might have died, they were in the line of 
fire from the snipers across the road.

AQ> MG>      Of course the reference to the LA riot was a successful 
AQ> MG> prophecy.  It was dated before it happened.

AQ>  You would have to give me a reference for this one because 
AQ>  it is meaningless unless you know the date.  Even I 
AQ>  predicted that there was going to be bad riots after the 
AQ>  cops were arrested unless they got convicted.

     It is in the warrant.  You have read that.  It is used as 
evidence of his "violent" intentions.  It gives the date of his 
prophecy as two weeks before the riot.  

AQ> MG>      As to the exact situation, how could he have known they 
AQ> MG> would not knock on the door?  How could he have known they 
AQ> MG> would come in shooting?  He must be a prophet.

AQ>  Because his brother in law was a mailman and he was 
AQ>  informed by one of the news crews, who were lost and 
AQ>  seeking directions.  and he then went to the compound and 
AQ>  informed Koresh.

     Sir, there was court testimony in this regard.  There was no 
such claim.  Why are you making it?

AQ> MG>AQ> MG>       From the available evidence it appears his status as a 
AQ> MG>AQ> MG>  prophet put him in a better position than most to interpret 
AQ> MG>AQ> MG>  it.

AQ> MG>      Because the BATF at least has documented him as having 
AQ> MG> a direct pipeline to god in being able to predict the 
AQ> MG> future.

AQ>  For somebody that is putting down the ATF and their 
AQ>  judgement, why would you be citing them here as experts on 
AQ>  anything.

     Why would you believe them on one subject and not on 
another?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1262)
To:      Albert Quinn                           14 Jun 94 19:24:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>     They were also kept in a locked room as is the responsible
AQ> MG>thing to do.

AQ>  They were also converting semi- automatic to fully 
AQ>  automatic which is why the ATF got involved in the first 
AQ>  place.

     Over a failure to pay the $200 tax on doing so.  Please 
explain the attack.

AQ> MG>     I repost the following just for you.

AQ> Redundent.

     You are one of those fearful of such people taking over the 
country?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1263)
To:      Albert Quinn                           15 Jun 94 03:36:10
Subject: Waco                                   

AQ> JB> Now, I believe the ATF agents probably claimed that their 
AQ> JB> gunfire was directed against the BD's dogs outside the 
AQ> JB> building, and thus they might try to say that they didn't 
AQ> JB> "start the gunfight."

AQ>  Bullshit! They went in there with the knowledge that the 
AQ>  BDs were expecting them and knowing that they would use 
AQ>  firearms against them 

     The latter is not only a fact not in evidence by directly 
contradicted by court testimony.

as one of the camera crews there lost 
AQ>  there way and asked a mailman for directions 

     I find it fascinating no one questions the mailman story 
delivering on a Sunday.

AQ> JB> In view of the fact that Koresh had indeed responded 
AQ> JB> peacefully to at least one warrant before and was on 
AQ> JB> reasonably good terms with the local police, I'd say that 
AQ> JB> this constitutes "evidence" of that.

AQ>  I think that there is ample evidence that Koresh did not 
AQ>  want it to end any differently.  Read the Time article for 
AQ>  Mar.  15/93.  He states that "if the Bible is true, then I am 
AQ>  Chritst".  

     Are such claims under BATF jurisdiction?  If so, evidence he 
was a truly peaceful man.

The same message tempted Koresh toward martyrdom 
AQ>  for himsalf.  He planned to die in a battle against the 
AQ>  unbelievers, then be joined in Heaven by the followers who 
AQ>  chose to lay down their lives for him.

     You have to explain why, if that was his intention,  he 
called for a cease fire instead of winning the battle the first 
day.  Until you do that your speculation is without foundation.

AQ>  Like I say there is no excuse for the BATF to go in the way 
AQ>  they did but that does noe excuse Koresh for what followed 
AQ>  later.

     You mean he can not be excused for calling for a cease fire 
that saved the lives of a hundred BATF agents?

AQ> JB> Who says the ammunition was "so readily at hand"?  And what 
AQ> JB> about your clause, "so much ammunition."?  If I kept 1000 
AQ> JB> rounds of ammo in my hall closet, would you call this "so 
AQ> JB> much ammunition so readily at hand?"

AQ>  Yes I would as in most civilized countries it would be 
AQ>  illegal to have the types of weopons that he had and that 
AQ>  much ammunition.

     It is not illegal in this country.  That means the BATF had 
no jurisdiction.  

AQ>  I have no idea and it has nothing to do with the argument 
AQ>  that I am trying to make and that is the apoclyptic message 
AQ>  of Koresh and the fact that he wanted to be a nartyre and 
AQ>  the attack by the ATF just accomodated him.

     Again, explain why the apocalypse was not on the first day.

AQ>  And so it was as far as the ATF and FBI were concerned but 
AQ>  there is an awful lot of apoligists out there for the BD 
AQ>  and they were definately not faultless in all of this.  For 
AQ>  instance why did he not let his own kids leave when the 
AQ>  other ones did? 

     The FBI promised they would be safe.

And he still had many charges involving sex 
AQ>  with girls as young as 12 and the fact that he had many 
AQ>  wives, which is still against the law.  

     There were no such criminal charges and no such 
investigation.

The reason the BATF 
AQ>  got invoved in the firs place is there was reports that 
AQ>  they were converting legal semi-automatic weopons to 
AQ>  illegal fully automatic ones.

     No.  It is stated in the perjured warrant the reason was a 
UPS deliveryman finding a broken open box of dud grenades.  Then 
the agent went on to swear to a bunch of obvious lies to get a 
warrant.

     Is this too hard for you to understand?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1264)
To:      Albert Quinn                           15 Jun 94 03:47:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  From what I have read lately in Time etc.  then there was 
AQ>  reports that they were converting legal semi-automatic 
AQ>  weopons into illegal fully automatic ones which is I 
AQ>  imagine where the BATF became involved.

     There were no such reports.  The BATF invented the story.

AQ> CM> They SAID they began by throwing grenades and shooting their 
AQ> CM> dogs.  There is considerable evidence that they began 
AQ> CM> shooting at PEOPLE.

AQ>  What evidnce? 

     Don't forget, the door with the evidence could not be 
"found" by the gov.  The mate to that door was found.  Do you 
not find it strange the gov can't find a metal door?

There is also ample evidence that the BDs 
AQ>  were waiting for them as they knew they were coming and 
AQ>  according to some articles it gave Koresh a chance to do 
AQ>  battle with the unbelievers and become a martyre.

     Why did he call for a cease fire?  A very strange thing for 
a martyr to do.

AQ>  Why did he not let his own children leave with the rest of 
AQ>  the women and children? 

     The FBI promised they would be safe.

And why did he not judge the 
AQ>  actions of the authorities when he did let some of the 
AQ>  peoplle go? 

     Are you forgetting the two that were murdered after the 
cease fire?

Surely he didn't think that they were going to 
AQ>  shoot people live on national TV when they are coming out 
AQ>  unarmed.

     From miles away what do you think would have been seen?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1265)
To:      Grant Karpik                           15 Jun 94 03:52:10
Subject: WACO                                   

GK>  Well, to get technical, there weren't any official charges 
GK>  of child abuse.  There were some allegations that were 
GK>  looked into by the appropriate Texas agency and nothing was 
GK>  found to back up the allegations at the time (although, 
GK>  from what I understand, the investigation was pretty 
GK>  cursory).  Not quite the same thing.

     The children who were released were examined and no evidence 
was found.  There exists absolutely no evidence in support of the 
allegations ALL of which were made during custody fights.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1269)
To:      Linda Terrell                          15 Jun 94 23:17:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT> JC>    Our trooper defendant, based upon a wire story I read the 
LT> JC>  other day, seems to suggest that ol' Paula probably got it 
LT> JC>  on with Slick.  (He reportedly said he didn't know what 
LT> JC>  happened after he escorted Jones to Clinton's room.)

LT>     Matt Giwer claims that this Trooper was IN the room with 
LT>  Clinton and Jones.

     If you feel I did it was a typo or you misread it.  There 
has been complete agreement from all parties he was not in the 
room.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1270)
To:      Gerard Schlundt                        15 Jun 94 23:55:10
Subject: WACO                                   

GS>  Oh, BTW, what WAS in that search warrant...still hasn't 
GS>  been issued yet to the best of my knowledge.

     It was posted here at least three times.

GS>  Giving their paychecks may not make sense to you, but that 
GS>  is their decision.  If it is right for them, why not let 
GS>  them?

     Kill them if they do.

GS>  AQ>  2) And finally why did he allow himself luxuries that he 
GS>  AQ>  denieed to the rest of his followers like; beer, meat, sex, 
GS>  AQ>  air conditioning, and T.V.? And why did his followers allow 
GS>  AQ>  it except that they were not allowed there free will after 
GS>  AQ>  awhile?.

GS>  He may have been a little off base...using the term little 
GS>  in a most of sarcastic ways, but I must again point out 
GS>  that he was tried, and executed by a government that went 
GS>  around every civil right they had.
GS> 
GS>  They were put to death without the benefit of a trial.

     Koresh's attorney reported no difference between his 
quarters and any other. 



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1271)
To:      Pete Bucy                              16 Jun 94 00:02:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>      Lester, I was told that the building had a floor that 
PB>      could not support the weight of an armored vehicle.  The 
PB>      average design criteria for residential non-sleeping 
PB>      rooms is thirty pounds per square foot.  For sleeping 
PB>      rooms it is generally forty pounds per square foot.  If 
PB>      an individual wants to place a common water bed on such 
PB>      a floor; the floor should be reinforced to handle the 
PB>      load.
PB> 
PB>      How did the FBI drive an armored vehicle, that most 
PB>      likely weighed around twenty-five thousand pounds, 
PB>      across such a floor?

     Where did you get the idea there was a basement?

     As you know the one place they did drive over which was 
unsupported killed people from blunt force trauma when the 
ceiling collapsed on them.  You are right, it could not support 
the weight.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1278)
To:      Jane Barnhardt                         16 Jun 94 15:19:10
Subject: Ollie north for sena                   

JB>  North's crime is apparent in your reply...he spent money 
JB>  generated thru ILLEGAL arms sales to aid people that 
JB>  Congress didn't want to aid...whether this was morally 
JB>  right, I don't know...I'm not sure if Congresses decision 
JB>  reflected the majority of American peoples' views.  

     Save he made no illegal sales that anyone has identified.  
And what Congress wanted to do was their business.  They did not 
manage to make anything North did in that support illegal.  
Finally, Congress only controls the pursestrings.  By the 
Constitution that is its own say in foreign affairs.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1283)
To:      Albert Quinn                           16 Jun 94 21:21:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  I understand that there was allegations that they were 
AQ>  converting semi-automatics to fully automatics and that 
AQ>  there was a quantity of explosive as well.  Would that not 
AQ>  account for te BATF presence.

     There were no such allegations.  Those were government 
perjuries.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1284)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 94 01:02:10
Subject: Waco #2                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      His arm had changed from numb to ache to pain.  While
holding on the phone he wrapped he belt above the hole to stop the
bleeding.  It was not until then he realized he was laying in a
pool of his own blood.  "Lord do not let me go into shock, I beg
you."  He felt calm returning.
     He barely heard his name being called over the gunfire.
Picking up the phone he said in a calmer voice, "This is David."
     "Good, David, I am trying to raise them on the radio now.
We are having trouble getting through."
     "Are they refusing to answer?"
     "I can't say that, David."
     "We knew you were coming you know.  We knew you were coming
to kill us before you knew you were coming."
     "No one is coming to kill you, David."
     "You have killed many of us already.  We knew you were going
to do that."
     "David, David, please don't do anything rash."
     "I have forgiven you as the has Lord commanded.  We are only
shooting to defend ourselves now."
     "I know you can't stop shooting.  I'm still trying to get
them to answer their radio."
     "Who are they?"
     "It is the government, David.  I am certain they are good
men thinking they are doing the right thing."
     "That is what Weaver thought."
     "Who, David?"
     "The government murdered his family."
     "Did you know him, David?"
     "Only in Christ."
     "My name is Lynch."
     "Your name is part of the government."
     "That's not fair, David."
     Wayne returned crawling on his belly cradling his .30-30 in
his best imitation of a raw recruit.
     "Better get your backside down."
     Wayne flopped.
     "The shooting is slowing.  I can't keep the men from
targeting the ones that aren't firing.  They are angry.  I can't
control them."
     Picking up the phone, "Lynch?"
     "Lynch here."
     "That cease fire has to happen soon.  I can't control my
people.  Your government is running out of ammunition.  They are
trying to kill them.  If there is no cease fire I will not be
able to save your government friends.  If I could get to them, I
could stop them but if I stand up I die and I can't bend my waist
from the pain.  You have to get the cease fire now."
     "I'll try saying that over the radio."
     "Thank you, Lynch"
     "Wayne, find Steve and the two of you stop as many as you
can.  Do your best."
     The telephone spoke again. 
     "Yes Lynch."
     "They answered this time.  They will agree to a cease fire.
Now you have to get your men to stop firing."
     "Your people first, Lynch.  I can't get around the house
very fast."
     "I'll tell them, David."
     "David, they say you have to stop shooting first."
     Outside the helicopters were coming back.  "Lynch, if those
helicopters are coming again.  If they do not turn back I will
not stop my people.  Tell them.  I will not let you murder any
more of us."
     In a moment the helicopters sound began to lessen, they were
leaving.
     "They said they would, David."
     "Thank you.  I will try to get my men to stop firing first.
I can't promise.  We did not start this."
     "I'm sure you didn't, David."
     "What are we going to do, David?"
     "Trust in the Lord, Wayne."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1285)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 94 02:01:10
Subject: WACO SPY SUES MEDIA                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: STEVE GUNHOUSE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/12/94 - 0001340
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another report from today's paper, this related to the Waco raid.

Agent in Davidian raid suing media
(Associated Press)
   Waco, Texas - The undercover agent who infiltrated the Branch Davidian
sect before an unsuccessful raid last year has sued two media outlets and
an ambulance service.
   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agent Robert Rodriguez blames
the Waco Tribune-Herald, KWTX-TV and American Medical Transport for causing
a confrontation between federal agents and Branch Davidians in an attempt
to make money from the coverage of the conflict.
   He is suing for unspecified damages, claiming emotional distress and
mental anguish.
   Waco attorney James Dunnam, who represents Rodriguez, has alleged the
media is to blame for alerting Koresh about the raid while Rodriguez was
still inside the compound.
   "Robert Rodriguez is sitting there with David Koresh ... when they were
tipped off wondering if he is going to get his head blown off," Dunnam
said. "Did he create that situation?"
   The lawsuit, filed Thursday in federal court in Waco, is the fourth
against the newspaper and TV station in connection with the raid, and the
second to name the ambulance service, which federal investigators found
tipped KWTX to the raid.

   The sidebar says that the paper and TV station are owned respectively by
Cox Texas Publications and Cox Enterprises.

   So now the feds want to blame the media, huh? What happpened to Janet
Reno being "responsible"?

Steve
 
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1286)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 94 04:46:10
Subject: Hillary the BAM                        

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     If it were not such a dud before Limbaugh got his hands on 
it, I presume everyone has heard of Hillary's story of her 
attempt to be come a BAM?  (Broad Ass Marine)  

     She was uglier than dog shit back then.  Amazing there has 
been little improvement.  (AND, she had to learn to wear 
contacts.)     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1292)
To:      Linda Terrell                          17 Jun 94 14:34:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT> MG>       If you feel I did it was a typo or you misread it.  
LT> MG>  There  has been complete agreement from all parties he was 
LT> MG>  not in the  room.

LT>          Well, I asked *somebody* "was Ferguson IN the 
LT>  room?" Reply was,  "Yes."  However, I do not save packets, 
LT>  so I cannot prove it.

     No issue.  The difference between she and he went in the 
room is as easy typo.  It has been consistent from the beginning 
that he waited outside.

     What has changed is that his formal deposition was that he 
did not approach her.  That is contrary to every statement I have 
heard reported so far.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1298)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 03:24:10
Subject: Waco 3                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: MATT GIWER
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/18/94 - Not Yet Posted
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      When David had recovered he agreed with Wayne and was his
old, serene self in judging that trying to turn Wayne into a
Judas was to be expected of those who would kill him.  He had
laughed a bit to learn he had not been shot.
     They listened to the daily briefings primarily for the
amusement of what would be mentioned next.  The funniest one when
they heard it was the "not quite a denial" that mass suicide was
expected with a Jim Jones reference.  Amusement turned to anger
as every day that question was asked again and not quite denied.
     What did not amuse them was the unqualified statement they
were manufacturing drugs.  "Based upon infrared photos ... they
are manufacturing methamphetamine a controlled class 1 substance
in the same category as heroin."  David had picked up the phone
immediately and demanded to know why that story was being told.
     "We have very good reasons.  You will see the reasons in a
couple days."
     "Why would you lie?"
     "Have you resurrected your son yet?"
     "Bastards!" slamming down the phone with a "Lord forgive me"
under his breath.
     "Steve is an engineer.  See if he can think of anything we
are doing that might give them that drug idea."
     "Will do."
     Of course the answer was none.  But even more Steve offered
the opinion that it was flatly impossible for infrared to detect
any such thing unless they were producing it by the ton.
     "Those folks will use infrared to justify anything."
     Two days later the briefing contained the following news.
"The US Army has provided a tank and several CEVs to assist in
the siege of the compound at Waco."  "Impossible," Wayne had
commented at first.  A few hours later he got back to David.
     "Now it makes sense.  It is a federal felony to use the
military in civilian law enforcement except in one case.
Remember when they stated factually we were manufacturing drugs?
That is the one and only exception to the law.  They lied about
us violating the drug laws so they can violate the Posse
Comitatus law."
     "Wayne, the more I think of this the less chance I think we
have a fair trial.  I think if we surrender now, they are going
to continue to tell these lies in court and we are going to spend
our lives there.  I had been considering surrender but no longer.
We might as well spend our lives here as in prison."
     "Agreed, David."
     "I'll explain it to everyone tomorrow.  It will be their
choice if they want to leave."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1299)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 03:25:10
Subject: Waco 4                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      While David was still recovery Wayne took over negotiations
with the FBI.  In the morning the FBI had given the press
briefing and essentially announced that all would soon be well as
they were in charge.  The recounted the same false account of
events as the BATF.  It was obvious the FBI was was not here to
investigate.  They were here to blame the Davidians. 
     When they called in the afternoon Wayne challenged them,
"Why are not investigating what happened?  Why are you not asking
for our side of it?"  The response was another demand to
surrender.
     Putting on his attorney's hat he asked, "To what charges do
you want us to surrender?"
     The answer was long but the highlights were murder of
federal agents, ambush of federal agents, possession of
controlled weapons.  In his head Wayne added up the entire list
to life plus sixty years.  And then he asked, "How many BATF have
you arrested?"  "None of course."
     "Will you entertain conducting an investigation of the
events and filing charges based upon our description of events?"
     "Of course not."
     "Why will you not do so?"
     "The BATF is the government.  The government takes care of
its own."
     "I think you have made your position clear.  It will take
some time to consider it."
     "Don't take forever.  We will not let you get away with
this."
     "I hear you."
     As Wayne mulled it over several facts were clear.  The lies
of the BATF were being accepted as gospel.  The entire government
was working to cover up the murders of one child and three
adults.  If they did not surrender to life in prison the
government would make things worse for them.  Not one word the
government was saying was true.  It was reasonable to expect they
would perjure themselves in court with the same lies.  It was one
group's word against another.
     And then there were the radio reports and talk shows.  It
appeared people were believing the lies.  It was a no win
situation.  There appeared no hope of a fair trial.
     He called back and said he would have to wait to consult
with David when he had recovered.
     "We know he isn't hurt.  There is no reason to wait for a
man who opened fire on the BATF."
     "That is not what happened, Wayne insisted."
     "That is the official truth.  We own the judge and the
courts.  However I am able to offer you an agreement if you will
testify against Koresh."
     Wayne slammed down the phone.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1300)
To:      William Morgan                         18 Jun 94 03:52:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

WM>  Bull.  The Moscow trip was taken during a time when bubba 
WM>  was SUPPOSED to be in school but had stopped attending 
WM>  classes.  You can't seriously believe that Oxford organized 
WM>  a trip during the school term to encourage students to cut 
WM>  classes???

     Actually this was thrashed out in detail during the campaign 
on f-politics.  It appears they were given a travel budget that 
would have wiped out his budget in the route he took to Moscow.  

     But the cost of rooms was one of the sources of hard 
currency and as such he could would have had to live on the 
street or return on the same train.  That he could have spent any 
time at all there had to have been some sort of gift.  

     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1301)
To:      William Morgan                         18 Jun 94 03:58:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

WM>  Right again, Kate.  I don't remember what the minimum wage 
WM>  was THEN, but now it is $4.25 per hour.  That means that 
WM>  going from a $6.00 per hour job to McD's would entail a 29% 
WM>  LOSS in income.  Would YOU be willing to give up 29% of 
WM>  YOUR income tomorrow just because some fat slob down the 
WM>  hall was a total jerk?

     Actually the manpower cost should be no more than 25% of 
total costs.  Therefore the direct increase would be 29/4%.  
However that is a fast food place.  

     The suppliers have a different pricing structure that I am 
not not familiar with.  So the cost of raw food would go up by 
the fraction of the cost of manpower.

     However, the bottom line is that the overall cost would go 
up by some significant fraction of the the 29% (at least 14%) as 
all the labor costs will be passed on to the consumer.

     It is like the employer mandated health care.  Costs will go 
up across the board and everyone will pay directly or indirectly 
in higher prices to cover the costs.  There ain't no free lunch 
and if the producer pays it costs will rise.  Sure, the big 
companies already pay health insurance and their prices will not 
rise.  Want to compare all of your spending to the the things you 
buy from the big guys?  

     


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Gore in '94!
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1302)
To:      Linda Terrell                          18 Jun 94 04:38:10
Subject: Clinton scandal                        

LT>     Heard on news today:  JOnes said she will settle for 
LT>  less money or no money if Clinton will "apologize" to her 
LT>  in Public.

     Sounds like a fair offer.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Bill survives Hil attack, two Sec Service Agents injured."
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1303)
To:      Albert Quinn                           18 Jun 94 04:46:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  I just fail to understand why they always say that it is a 
AQ>  freedom issue when they are taking the freedom away from so 
AQ>  many other people that are afraid to go out on their own 
AQ>  streets.  

     Because there is nothing being taken away from the people 
who cause the fear on the street.

They keep quoting from a 200 year old amendment to 
AQ>  the constitution, 

     The quotation is from THE Constitution that just happens to 
be 200 years old along with the rest of it.

If their senators and representatives had 
AQ>  any balls at all then they would have amanded the darn 
AQ>  thing by now.  

     They can not do so even though the repeal of the 2nd has 
been introduced every year for the last ten.  Your ignorance of 
the Constitution is showing.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * No Office.  No Oath.  No public trust. H. Ramrod Clinton
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1304)
To:      Albert Quinn                           18 Jun 94 04:51:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  Why did they think like that, other than what Koresh had  
AQ>  told them in his sermons.  He could of ended it any time 
AQ>  after it started because nobody was going to shoot an 
AQ>  unarmed person who came out of the compound, at least not 
AQ>  with the international press there.  

     Two Davidians were MURDERED after the cease fire.  What the 
fuck are you talking about?

Why did he not send out 
AQ>  his own kids if he figured that it was going to end the way 
AQ>  it did.  After all he let the other kids go.  

     The parents made the decisions.  Those children sent out 
were the decision of their parents.  His decision was different.  
The FBI promised the tanks driving through the walls would harm 
no one.

Tell me one 
AQ>  thing, why ar eyou so quick to jump on the BATF and portray 
AQ>  Koresh as just an innocent person who would never do 
AQ>  anything wrong?

     There is no evidence he did anything wrong. 

     Next question.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1341)
To:      Linda Terrell                          18 Jun 94 19:00:10
Subject: Clinton scandal                        

LT> MG> LT>     Heard on news today:  JOnes said she will settle for
LT> MG> LT>  less money or no money if Clinton will "apologize" to her
LT> MG> LT>  in Public.
LT> MG>
LT> MG>      Sounds like a fair offer.

LT>    Except that to apologize is to admit it happened.

     Sounds fair.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Hillary, The World's Greatest Authority on health care.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1346)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 21:04:10
Subject: Waco press release     01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: DAVID HANKINS
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/15/94 - 0004693
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 This  is  fresh  off the net, Matt.  I Thought you might be
interested...

-=>begin import<=-

Tue,  14  Jun  1994  18:32:36  -0400  (EDT)
From: Carol Moore 
Subject:   Davidian   Sentencing   Press Release
To: Libernet  Please distribute this to other lists.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Carol Moore 202/986-1847 Alan
Forschler 202/797-9877

 June 13, 1994---  COMMITTEE  DEMANDS ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET
RENO RESIGN OVER PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT IN TRIAL OF BRANCH
DAVIDIANS

Washington, D.C.--

 On Thursday, June 16, the  first day of sentencing of eight
Branch Davidians, members of the Committee for Waco  Justice
will  leaflet  the  U.S.   Department  of Justice located at
Pennsylvania and 10th streets from 12:30 to 1:30p.m.  We are
demanding the resignation of Attorney General Janet Reno for
her  role   in   condoning--   and  perhaps  evenpromoting--
prosecutorial misconduct  in  the  trial  of  eleven  Branch
Davidians  accused  of  conspiracy to murder federal agents.
All were found innocent of that charge.

 Eight Davidians were found guilty of weapons charges --five
of those  of  aiding  and  abetting  voluntary manslaughter.
Depending on the weapons allegedly  used,  defendants  could
face  from  five to thirty years in prison.  Some defendants
are expected to  present  new  evidence that might exonerate
them  during  "allocution"  before  sentencing.    Committee
members  believe  federal  prosecutors Ray Jahn, LeRoy Jahn,
William Johnston and John Finizy, who work under Janet Reno,
engaged in or condoned the following acts of misconduct:

 Group  trial  --this  unjust  tactic  was  used  to prevent
defendants who could testify to other defendants'  innocence
from  taking  the  stand  since once they did so prosecutors
could force them to present self-incriminating evidence.

 Destruction of evidence --the  steel  front door, which was
evidence BATF agents shot first and/or indiscriminately, was
never found, despite federal agents complete control of  the
crime  scene;  while BATF originally claimed it had video of
the first minutes of the  raid, prosecutors claimed at trial
equipment had failed and such video did not exist; similarly
the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  (FBI)  claims   its
surveillance  devices  failed  right  before  the April 19th
fire, destroying  any  evidence  of  Davidians  innocence of
starting the fire; prosecutors were at Mount Carmel the  day
FBI  tanks  destroyed  the  building  and with it definitive
evidence that federal agents fired indiscriminately and from
helicopters.

 Withholding  evidence   from   the   defense  --prosecutors
frequently broke the "Brady Rule" requiring  prosecutors  to
give  the defense the chance to inspect all evidence against
the defendants.  They  did  not  tell  defense attorneys, or
delayed until the last minute, that:  two  BATF  agents  had
changed  their  stories of who shot first; that they had two
witnesses who  could  identify  a  defendant;  that they had
evidence to prove one of those witnesses could not initially
identify that defendant; that they had a written  transcript
of  their  "star"  witness's  early  testimony  -- testimony
whichd iffered greatly from  that  she  would present at the
trial.

 Also, they would  not  allow  a  weapons  expert  hired  by
defense  attorneys  to  take  off  the  plastic  wrapping to
inspect  the  guns  thoroughly.   And  the  medical examiner
claimed that deceased Branch Davidian Perry Jones had only a
mouth wound, despite many Branch Davidians' claim  that  the
unarmed  Jones,  who  was standing next to the unarmed David
Koresh as he  answered  the  door,  was  killed by the first
barrage of BATF gunfire through the now-missing front  door.
The family currently cannot afford an independent autopsy.

 Influencing  Witnesses  --two  BATF  agents  changed  their
original  stories about the February 28th raid months later,
after speaking with federal agents and probably prosecutors;
an audio expert who earns  more than $100,000 a year working
for the FBI created a transcript of surveillance tapes which
claimed largely inaudible statements  were  proof  Davidians
spread  fuel  and started a fire, but ignored one Davidians'
audible statement  he  might  use  a  "Molotov  cocktail" in
self-defense against rampaging tanks.

 Possible  Pressure  on  Judge  --On  February   26th   U.S.
District  Judge Walter Smith let the Jury go after promising
defense attorneys  he  would  dismiss  a  weapons conviction
Jurors had voted for, contrary  to  his  instructions.   The
Prosecution  agreed  to his decision.  After conferring with
the Justice Department, prosecutors demanded Smith reinstate
the verdicts.  Smith  had  barely escaped Justice Department
prosecution himself a few weeks before on charges  of  lying
under oath.  He acceded to federal prosecutors' demand.  The
Committee  for  Waco  Justice has discovered that Janet Reno
and  other  Justice  Department  and  FBI  officials  in the
Washington FBI Operations Center had a "live audio feed"  to
surveillance  devices and could hear everything taped inside
Mount Carmel Center the morning  of the fire as it happened:
Davidians'  calls  for  negotiations,  tanks  smashing   the
building,  children  crying, people praying -- and any plans
for setting fires or using Molotv cocktails.

 Reno and her  deputies  should  be prosecuted for violating
the rights of innocent individuals killed  in  the  fire  --
whether  it  was started by FBI tanks knocking over lanterns
as Davidians claim  or  by  Davidian  actions of which Janet
Reno and others had foreknowledge.  Reno and other officials
and agents are being sued  in  civil  courts  for  over  one
billion  dollars  by relatives of deceased Branch Davidians.
They hold her and  others  responsible  whether the fire was
started purposively or accidentally.  Some are suing for the
deaths of women and children killed when  a  tank  collapsed
part  of  the  roof  of  the  concrete  room before the fire
started.

 The Committee for Waco Justice believes that any individual
who would allow  five  50  ton  tanks  to  rampage through a
building filled  with  women  and  children  probably  would
condone  and  even promote prosecutorial misconduct to cover
up her crimes and blame  her  victims.   Janet Reno is not a
hero.  She should resign  immediately.   The  Committee  for
Waco   Justice   supports   the  draft  bill  to  create  an
independent  "Waco  Investigation  Commission"  empowered to
fully  investigate  government  crimes  against  the  Branch
Davidians and report to Congress  with  recommendations  for
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1347)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 21:23:10
Subject: Health care                            

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BILL BLOMGREN
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/17/94 - 0004691
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Found elsewhere...
 Original From: DALE HODGE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Hillary Rodham Clinton is making unannounced visits to hospitals to
interview patients on their quality of care.  She pops through the first closed
door and finds a patient performing Solo sex.

        "Shouldn't you keep an eye out for this sort of thing?" she asks the
hospital administrator.  He explains to her that Solo Sex is part of
the patient's therapy.  He has cancer of the prostate.  Solo sex, in theory,
helps remission.

        Hillary pops through another door.  This time a nurse is giving the
patient oral sex.

        "I suppose you'll tell me that's therapy too?"

        "Yes, indeed it is," answers the administrator.  "Only this patient has
health insurance."

... If Clinton's the answer,it's a VERY silly question

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Reality will not file a complaint if you grab it.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1349)
To:      All                                    19 Jun 94 05:00:10
Subject: A good turn in program                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     So why do not NRA members sponsor and advertise a gun turn 
in program?  Think about it.  You can trade something dumb (gift 
certificates worth less than a sale discount or teddy bears) and 
stupid for guns.  It is a legitimate trade.  

     Certainly there can be careful conditions in the advertising 
such as "working condition" and the members can determine that at 
the time of turn in with a consolation prize of a free Big Mac or 
something like that.  I presume there are some legalities 
involved such as having an FFL type involved in the acceptance 
but it should not be too hard to cover contingencies.

     As for public relations, they are guaranteed to only be 
resold to NRA members (known responsible) and the profits will go 
to gun safety programs.  

     If people do not want guns we certainly do not want them to 
have them.  If they can be offered something of value in exchange 
everyone is happy and they have contributed to gun safety.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Si vis pacem, parabellum."  If you would see peace, prepare


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1350)
To:      All                                    19 Jun 94 05:00:10
Subject: NEW TACK ON SEARCHES                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: FRANK CONNER
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/13/94 - 0001391
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone in the Washington, D.C. area has a scanner to read an article 
into the board there is one in the Washington Times, June 13 issure, 
page A9 on what the cops are doing on house searches for guns as 
reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Briefly, deals with getting 
consent forms signed by residents to search for "illegal" guns. Quote: 
"Only a few have said no- and of course police keep a close eye on them. 
"We figure they have something to hide," said Lt. Joseph Richardson...." 
Scary.
--- MMGR v3.52
 * GUN-TALK: NRA MEMBERS ONLY CONFERENCE
                                                                              
---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1351)
To:      Ed Mathis                              19 Jun 94 05:00:10
Subject: Second-Hand Smoke St                   

EM> ->  Ahh, but one thing you so easily overlook or let go without 
EM> ->  saying, Paul! And that is that just like the case for 
EM> ->  abortion, it is the woman who makes the choice.  It is her 
EM> ->  body and her life and she should be free to do with it as 
EM> ->  she wishes.

EM>  Bill, you are overlooking the fact that the children 
EM>  exposed to secondhand smoke in the houses where they grow 
EM>  up do NOT have a choice.  And medical science has known for 
EM>  a long time that children are affected by toxins to a far 
EM>  greater degree than adults.
EM> 
EM>  What about that?  The childrens' "rights" are not respected 
EM>  here.  And neither are nonsmokers' rights respected by 
EM>  smokers in public places.

     We also know there is no evidence of this being a medical 
problem.  So why continue the discussion?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Ginnane is jealous of Hillary.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1401)
To:      Linda Terrell                          19 Jun 94 21:42:10
Subject: Clinton scandal                        

LT> MG> LT>    Except that to apologize is to admit it happened.
LT> MG>
LT> MG>      Sounds fair.

LT>     Except that it isn't.  I prefer it go to court.

     He doesn't.


---
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+++■■■■■ r_940625 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1324)
To:      Ed Mathis                              22 Jun 94 04:11:10
Subject: Nonsmokers' ally                       

EM>  The latest in a long string of victories occurred this past 
EM>  spring.  ASH filed and won a federal lawsuit against OSHA, 
EM>  arguing that OSHA was breaking the law by refusing to deal 
EM>  with a known toxin in the workplace (tobacco smoke).  OSHA 
EM>  appealed, but the federal appeals court agreed with ASH and 
EM>  ordered OSHA to begin drafting regulations to protect 
EM>  nonsmokers in the workplace.  Perhaps we will finally have 
EM>  some results in another year or two.

     It is truly amazing that a court can rule as true things 
that are untrue.  As you know it is not a toxin and of course the 
idea of any health risks have been completely discredited.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1325)
To:      Ed Mathis                              22 Jun 94 05:04:10
Subject: TOBACCO COMPANY FIBS                   

EM>  This whole issue is, of course, way off course from the 
EM>  core of the smoking debate as viewed by nonsmokers.  We view 
EM>  the problem from the standpoint that smokers continuously 
EM>  emit their harmful byproducts INSIDE, where the 
EM>  concentration INCREASES over time.  Everyone in that space 
EM>  is harmed, whether they wish it or not, and most of the 
EM>  time there is no recourse and no relief.

     As you know all of the harmful issues have been discounted.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1411)
To:      All                                    22 Jun 94 17:01:10
Subject: Verbal abuse                           

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Defense is not Abuse
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/22>

     While the nation is attempting to avert wars in both Haiti
and Korea the attention of the nation is riveted on O. J.
Simpson.  As expected the professional whiners are on the talk
shows talking about spousal abuse.  And of course the evil male
is guilty again.
     The innocence of the woman is presumptive.  It is axiomatic
that a woman can do nothing to deserve physical abuse.  I have to
ask, how can a man ever deserve verbal abuse from a woman?
     The scold or shrew is a well known character in literature.
How common they are in real life has not been the subject of any
study.  A question we can discuss is how many women aspire to
being victims?
     Every time you see or read or hear of a woman telling about
how she was beaten you have a professional victim.  Can it happen
once?  Certainly but those are not professional victims.  Those
that go through relationship after relationship with the same
results are professional victims.
     Why?  Listen to the explanation as to why so many next time.
"I didn't understand the kind of men I was seeking out."  Note
that makes them even a victim of themselves.
     She is now the consummate victim.  And when they go public
they get public humiliation and all the pity they can wallow in.
It has to be seriously asked if they sought out the wrong kind of
man or whether any kind of man would do and those men provoked
into violence.  Back to the axiom, no woman can do anything to
deserve physical abuse.
     I would rather ask if woman can provoke being beaten.  I
note there is nothing that can stop a determined women from
continuing such provocation until successful.
     What does she get out of it?  First, the attention of
friends, neighbors and the police.  Second, the courts
automatically side with the poor, weeping victim on the stand.
Third, if the man should want to get back into his own home and
see his own children again it will be on her terms.
     Can a woman be stopped with anything short of violence?
Court relief from the common scold ceased a couple centuries ago.
In the past we had a recognized crime that certainly can lead to
domestic violence.  Today we have no injunctive relief for it.  I
am not suggesting bringing back the scold's bridle but certainly
there is something between that and being laughed out of domestic
relations court.
     It would appear only reasonable in law to remove the
presumption of victim status from the woman.  It should be
recognized that women can just as easily be the cause of the
abuse they receive.  Or shall it continued to be presumed that no
man should ever snap under vicious verbal abuse every waking
moment while knowing there will be no end until the woman gets
the victim status she wants?

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.




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+++■■■■■ r_940628 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1115)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 14:23:10
Subject: Stuff                 1/3              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/21/94 - 0004743
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Committee of 50 States
Newsletter - Volume 1, Number 2, June 1994                  by Joseph Stumph

As we promised in the first newsletter you will find a copy of the Walter
Williams column which appeared in some 100 newspapers nationwide around the
first of 1994.  As a result of his column we have received many inquiries
about our work to get 38 states to adopt the Ultimatum Resolution.

We are making good progress in getting the states to adopt the position that
they, not the federal government, are the superior in our state-federal
relationship.  If we only succeed in reversing the psychology which presently
exists at the state level; that is, that the federal government is superior
to the states, we will have won a great victory.  In getting the states to
realize that they are the PRINCIPALS, and the federal government is only an
AGENT, it is a tremendous step in the right direction.

Representative Charles Duke of Colorado was introduced to the Ultimatum
Resolution by one of his constituents around December 1993.  Shortly
thereafter he called and said he was going to introduce it in Colorado.
Later he decided it might be impossible to get it through Committe in the
House as the Committee Chairman was strongly against it.  Nevertheless, he
went forward with a proposal which had no "teeth" in it, but still sends a
strong message to the federal government, and is a good first step toward
reversing the present roles of federal and state governments.

Mr. Duke's sovereignty resolution, or 10th Amendment resolution known as
House Joint Resolution 94-1035 reads in part:

    . . .WHEREAS, the 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
    power as being that specifically granted by the United States
    Constitution and no more; and

    WHEREAS, the scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that
    the federal government was created by the states specifically to be
    an agent of the states; and

    WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the states are demonstrably treated as agents
    of the federal government; and

    WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
    government by the Colorado General Assembly without any response or
    result from Congress or the federal government; and (shades of King
    George of England in 1776)

    WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th
    Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

    WHEREAS, the United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v.
    United States, 112 S. St. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply
    commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states;
    and. . .

    Be it resolved by the House of Representatives of the Fifty-ninth
    General Assembly of the State of Colorado, the Senate concurring herein:

        (1) That the State of Colorado hereby claims sovereignty under the
    10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers
    not otherwise enumerated and granted in the federal government by the
    United States Constitution.

        (2) That this serves as Notice and Demand to the federal government,
    as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that
    are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers.

    Be it firther resolved, that copies of this Resolution be sent to the
    President of the United States, the Speaker of the United States House
    of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the
    Speaker of the House, and the President of the Senate of each state's
    legislature of the United States of America, and Colorado's
    Congressional delegation.

This Resolution passed the House April 8, 1994 by a vote of 51-13.  It later
passed the Senate 25-7.

In sending the Colorado Resolution to leadership in all 50 states, many of
these states are, or will, consider passing similar resolutions.

For example, Hawaii passed May 2, 1994 Senate Concurrent Resolution No. 108.
The strongest part of the Hawaiian Resolution reads:  BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED
that all compulsory federal legislation which directs states to comply under
threat of civil or criminal penalties or sanctions or requires states to
pass legislation or lose federal funding be prohibited. . .

One reason Hawaiian legislators are anxious to send a message to Washington
is, reading from the Resolution:  "Whereas, in a letter to the Honolulu
Advertiser, Governor John Waihee states that the cost factor associated with
complying with federal mandates will cost the State of Hawaii $377 million
or approximately twelve per cent of the 1994 state budget;". . .

All the states are laboring under more and more unfunded federal mandates
which are causing even many socialist and liberal state legislators to ask,
"What can we do?"  The Ultimatum Resolution is meant to wake up state
legislators that they, not Washington, have all the power, and that
Washington exists only at their pleasure.

Dr. Ronald Carlson, a dental surgeon in Honolulu, the State Coordinator for
the Committee of 50 States, and a wonderful group of activist patriots
working with him can be credited for the passage of the Hawaiian Sovereignty
Resolution.  They have put in many hours in meeting with and educating a
number of Hawaiian state legislators.  Ron and our Committee did their best
to get Hawaii to "go for the gold" with the Ultimatum Resolution.  We are
very proud of them for getting us "half-a-loaf" with the Sovereignty
Resolution.
>>> Continued to next message
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1116)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 14:24:10
Subject: Stuff                 2/3              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/21/94 - 0004744
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> Continued from previous message
Roman Haslag and his wife Taz, our Missouri State Coordinators, personally
delivered flyers to each of their 197 Missouri legislators.  Between them
and the influence of Charles Duke's Colorado Resolution, Missouri passed a
resolution nearly identical to that of Colorado on May 13, 1994.  In the
House it was 153-1.  Senate, 27-0.  Hallelujah!

At last count in California, Senator Don Rogers was leading a sovereignty
resolution adoption nearly identical to that of Colorado with 22 Senate
co-sponsors and 40 co-sponsors in this Assembly.

In Florida, Representatives Bill Posey and Stan Bainter succeeded in getting
24 co-sponsors for "the gold" itself, the Ultimatum Resolution.  These good
men are doing all they can to get Florida to stand up to the federal bully.
Please encourage thm in their excellent work.

The Arizona State Legislature was the host of Western States Summit II, May
19 and 20.  Arizona governor Fife Symington and Utah governor Michael
Leavitt addressed this convention attended by some 350 state legislators and
county commissioners, miners and ranchers, etc. from all over the west.  As
in the first conference held in Denver in February 1994, elected leaders and
others are trying to come to some sort of consensus on the best way to get
the federal government under control.

Both governors presented good plans which point us in the right direction.
Governor Leavitt in particular is calling for a convention of states to get
together to figure out what to do.  He thinks, perhaps, an amendment to the
Constitution which will strengthen the Tenth Amendment could be the thing to
do.

Such an approach is good but will accomplish nothing.  The elitists in
control of our government are determined to control the entire planet and
the only thing which can possibly hold them back is for at least 38 states
to take a stand as we suggest and tell the feds exactly how it is; that we
are all fed up; have taken all the federal oppression and tyranny and
outlandish taxation we intend to take, and in power, under law, and with
firmness tell the federal government we mean to put them back in their
constitutional cage, or dissolve the entire federal structure and start
over.

Nevertheless, Governors Leavitt and Syimgton have their STATE'S RIGHTS
thinking caps on and we should encourage and applaud them as they grow in
knowledge as to how the game should be played, and we hope, with the courage
to stand and fight.  It is doubtful that either governor has the insight or
knowledge of the evil nature of the global elitists or their determination
to RULE and RUIN this planet.  It is important that we let them know we are
behind them, for as they begin to put heat on the federal government, they,
in turn, will feel tremendous heat and pressure to back off and let the rich
men of the earth have their way.

We have 23 states in which we have wonderful patriots who have accepted the
responsibility to be State Coordinators for the Committee of 50 States.
They are listed below.  Please contact these leaders is your state is
represented and volunter to help them get your state to pass the Ultimatum
Resolution.  We need Coordinators in the other 27 states.  If you can refer
us to knowledgeable patriots who might have the time to act as leaders in
these states, please refer them to us.

ALABAMA                     ALASKA                      ARIZONA
Scott Lyons                 Steve Guildner              Don Scherrer
University of Alabama       PO Box 75303                2009 E. Bendix Dr.
PO Box 4887                 Fairbanks, AK  99707        Tempe, AZ 85283
Tuscaloosa, AL  35486       (907)488-7501               (602)838-4147
(205)752-7923

ARKANSAS                    CALIFORNIA                  COLORADO
Bob Eldridge                Paul Kotter                 William (Bill) Fromm
702 Arrowhead Dr.           3145 Westhaven Dr.          10772 Inspiration Dr.
Jonesboro, AR  72401        Anaheim, CA 92804           Parker, CO 80134
(501)972-4650               (714)827-7162               (303)941-2382

GEORGIA                     HAWAII                      IDAHO
John P. Bratton             Ron Carlson                 Ruth Young
140 Deanna Ct.              4211 Waialae Ave, Ste. 400  836 Teton Dr.
Lawrenceville,  GA 30245    Honolulu, HI 96816          Jerome, ID  83338
(404)962-0465               (808)735-0282               (208)324-7218

ILLINOIS                    IOWA                        MICHIGAN
Jack Jones                  Randy Herod                 Jim Petrangelo
c/o Box 405                 Box 1041                    32206 Schoenherr
Bethany, IL 61914           Waterloo, IA  50704         Warren, MI  48093
(217)665-3857               (319)235-2894               (810)294-6616

MISSOURI                    MONTANA                     NEVADA
Roman and Tax Haslag        Barbara Linaburg            James (Jim) Dennis
c/o 333 Ebenezer Rd         Box 533                     Box 1089
Leslie, MO (zip exempt)     Terry, MT  59349            Hawthorne, NV  89415
(314)484-3419               (406)637-5865               (702)945-3121

NEW MEXICO                  NEW HAMPSHIRE               OHIO
William (Bill) Ritch        Guy Comtois                 James Johnson
P.O. Box 8                  16 Melody Lane              272 Whitethorne
Cushillo, NM  87932         Pelham, NH  03076           Columbus, OH  43223
(505)743-3201               (603)635-9909               (614)272-8828
>>> Continued to next message
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1117)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 14:25:10
Subject: Stuff                 3/3              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/21/94 - 0004745
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> Continued from previous message
OKLAHOMA                    TENNESSEE                   UTAH
Charles Key                 Donald R. Porter            Gary L. Van Dolzer
700 Manchester Lane         Route 2, Box 352-A          1456 S. 750 E
Oklahoma City, OK  73127    Ramer, TN  38367            Kaysville, UT  84037
(405)521-2711               (901)645-6470               (801)451-6529

WASHINGTON                  WYOMING
Nolan Petersen              Russell Donley (temporary)
7527 44th St., W #2         1140 Ivy Lane
Tacoma, WA  98466           Casper, WY  82609
(206)564-6157               (307)235-1789

Most of the state legislatures have adjourned for 1994.  Now is the time to
approach your personal state representative, or those likely to be elected
in the 1994 November elections, and ask them to co-sponsor the Ultimatum
Resolution in 1995.

Our goal is to get the Ultimatum Resolution introduced in all 50 states in
1995 and actually get it passed by at least 38 states during the 1996 state
legislative sessions.

We have only about 7,400 people to concentrate on in all 50 states.  There
are at least 5,000,000 well-informed patriots across America who vote for
these 7,400 legislators.  Surely, 5,000,000 people encouraging 7,400 to vote
for the Ultimatum Resolution is sufficient to get the job done.  Please do
your part.  Go personally, and visit your two state legislators.  They are
local, common people just like most of us.  Since you vote for them they are
anxious to please you.  Let them know you're alive, friendly and diplomatic
and you want the Constitution preserved and federal deficit spending stopped.

To all of you who sent in $5.00 for a subscription to this newsletter, we
thank you for your support and faith in the cause of freedom.  Your
financial contributions are so gratefully accepted and appreciated because
we have to operate on a "shoestring."  We would like to thank each of you
individually but felt it wiser to thank all at once in the newsletter and
save postage.  You are wonderful; we love you and we need you if we are to
save our country, our homes and our lives from tyranny of the New World
Order and ultimate slavery.  Please share the newsletter with family,
friends and neighbors, or any who are interested in freedom.

This issue is complimentary to those who have not had it before.  If you
wish to be kept informed of the progress of this effort, please contact our
editor with your subscription.  We need your help.

For your convenience we now have the Ultimatum Resolution on videotape for
$13.00 postpaid.

Your friend in liberty,
Lila Aagard, editor

PLEASE NOTE:  The Ultimatum Resolution is an insurance policy, nothing more.
If 38 states decide to adopt it, nothing will happen unless Congress or the
President steps over the who lines which the states will be drawing in the
sand.  If 38 states act in unison, we believe the federal government will
obey the will of the states rather than face the alternatives.

If you would like a copy of the book showing the structure of the union and
how the states have all power, send $13.00 to:

    Committee of 50 States
    4808 Quailbrook Circle
    Salt Lake City, UT  84118
    (801)966-5533

=====================================================
    The "two lines in the sand" are:  (1) if the federal debt reaches
    $6 trillion and/or (2) there is an attempt to suspend or abolish
    all or part of the Constitution.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1118)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 14:30:10
Subject: Verbal abuse                           

AQ>  Whew, I am finally glad that we have a topic that we can 
AQ>  agree on.  

     When people agree there is nothing to talk about.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1119)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 14:31:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>      Two Davidians were MURDERED after the cease fire.  What 
AQ> MG> the fuck are you talking about?

AQ>  That one I am going to have to leave although in the amount 
AQ>  of research that I have done so far I have seen nothing 
AQ>  about this.

     It has been known for a long time.

     Date: 07-02*93    Time: 10:29p     Number: 121660 
     From: PAUL PRATT                    Refer:         
       To: JOE GALEN                  Board ID: PETEXCH         Recvd: No 
  Subject: WACO MEMORY CHECK               325: f-Politics     Status: Public 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Galen said something about Waco memory check to All:

 JG> It is fairly well accepted that 10 people were killed at the
 JG> BD compound prior to the fire on day 51.  Of these, 4 were
 JG> BATF agents and 6 were members of the BD.

 JG> On day 1 there was a firefight variously estimated to have
 JG> lasted from 45 minutes to one hour.  During this firefight,
 JG> 4 BATF agents were killed.  How many BD were killed during
 JG> the firefight?  Were any BD killed later?

 JG> Rephrasing the question...Were any BD killed by the BATF or
 JG> the FBI subsequent to the day 1 firefight and prior to the
 JG> activities of day 51?

Two confirmed kills.  Mike Schroeder, after the firefight, killed 
while trying to return to the compound.  Peter Ghent (sp?) was 
killed by a sniper on top of the water tower.

... 50 years of progress: Warsaw to Waco. 1943-1993

AQ> MG>      The parents made the decisions.  Those children sent 
AQ> MG> out were the decision of their parents.  His decision was 
AQ> MG> different.  The FBI promised the tanks driving through the 
AQ> MG> walls would harm no one.

AQ>  Not very much of a prophet is he if he could not tell how 
AQ>  it was going to turn out.  

     Then you agree the FBI lied to them.

And if he did then I repeat 
AQ>  again, why did he want to take his kids with him as they 
AQ>  were not old enough to make up their own minds?

     Are you suggesting all parents should abandon their child 
until they are old enough to make up their own minds?

AQ> MG>     There is no evidence he did anything wrong.

AQ>  I think there is ample evidence such as the fact that they 
AQ>  were thought to have a couple of cases of grenades and were 
AQ>  thought to be converting weopons to automatic ones.

     Please provide your evidence of this.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1120)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 14:35:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>     Not in the search warrant.  But you know that.

AQ>  What about the boxes of grenades? 

     WW II surplus PRACTICE grenades.  They are a common item 
sold at gun shows and surplus stores.  I used to have a couple.  
What about it?

AQ> MG>AQ>  What about the act of polygamy as that is still a crime in
AQ> MG>AQ>  this country,

AQ> MG>     You know the BATF has no authority.  Why bring it up?

AQ>  I am not trying to justify the BATF as that has been done 
AQ>  to death ut it does show that Mr.  Koresh was no innocent 
AQ>  lamb being crucified and he knew where everything was 
AQ>  headed.

     The BATF had no authority and we are talking about an attack 
by the BATF with them throwing grenades and shooting off their 
guns.

AQ> See above

     As you well know the polygamy and child abuse allegations 
have NEVER been substantiated.  

AQ> MG>AQ> JW>         They (in the personna of Paul Fatta) were in the
AQ> MG>AQ> JW>   BUSINESS of buying, repairing, and SELLING weapons for
AQ> MG>AQ> JW>   profit.  MANY churches run for profit businesses, and the
AQ> MG>AQ> JW>   BDs thought that there would be good profit in firearms
AQ> MG>AQ> JW>   since one of their members was expert in their repair.

AQ> And converting semi-automatic weopons to fully automatic.

     Fatta was on trial and he was not charged with that.

AQ> MG>     But since you think it does, please explain why the use of
AQ> MG>deadly force is permitted in bigamy and child abuse cases.

AQ>  I don't think anything justifies deadly force except in 
AQ>  extraordinary circumstances.

     Why did the BATF use it?

AQ> MG>      Would you please document the source of your fantasies 
AQ> MG> regarding the financial arrangements within the compound?  
AQ> MG> Please be either specific or admit your are posting your 
AQ> MG> personal fantasies.

AQ>  Time Magazine, Newsweek Magazine, McLeans Magazine and 
AQ>  almost every other article that has delved into what 
AQ>  actually happened in that particular cult.

     I have not heard of McLeans.  Of the first two the stories 
they ran had no more basis than you do for your beliefs.  You now 
have a concrete example of being mislead by the press.  You were.

AQ> MG>AQ>  1) Why did he let all of the other children go except for
AQ> MG>AQ>  the ones he fathered?

AQ> MG>     Since when is this a crime?

AQ>  Because he had no right to sacrifice the children to his 
AQ>  ideals and he knew what the probaable outcom was going to 
AQ>  be.

     What sacrifice?  It was the FBI that poisoned the children.

AQ> MG>AQ>  2) And finally why did he allow himself luxuries that he
AQ> MG>AQ>  denieed to the rest of his followers like; beer, meat, sex,
AQ> MG>AQ>  air conditioning, and T.V.? And why did his followers allow
AQ> MG>AQ>  it except that they were not allowed there free will after
AQ> MG>AQ>  awhile?.

AQ> MG>     The survivors have denied everyone of those allegations.
AQ> MG>And even if true, what made that the business of the BATF and why
AQ> MG>was it not mentioned in the warrant?

AQ>  Most of them still revered him after they left the compound 
AQ>  and were still under his spell and would not say anything 
AQ>  against him.

     They have been DENIED.  That is, they are considered to be 
untrue until there is corroboration.  AND Koresh's attorney saw 
his room and reports the stories were not true.  

     Are you now going to tell me those magazines ran a picture 
of the window to his room with an air conditioner in it?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1121)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 14:51:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> MG>      Because there is nothing being taken away from the 
AQ> MG> people who cause the fear on the street.

AQ>  Maybe if you had tighter controls in the states on the 
AQ>  mahufactureing and selling of guns then there would not be 
AQ>  as many on the street.  

     Just what would you suggest that is tighter than now?  
Please be specific.

Even the UN is getting into the 
AQ>  dabate these days as a lot of weopons that were purchased 
AQ>  perfectly legally in the states are showing up in other 
AQ>  countries where they are being used in the commission of 
AQ>  crimes.

     They are showing up in countries that are sending drugs to 
us.  And there is no evidence they weapons are coming directly 
from the US.  If you will take a look at the armies in Latin 
America most of them have M-16s.  The rest of them have AK-47s.  
Those are the only two on the "nasty" list and one of them is 
made in the US.

AQ> MG>      The quotation is from THE Constitution that just 
AQ> MG> happens to be 200 years old along with the rest of it.

AQ>  It is still 200 years old and what the fathers of 
AQ>  confederation intended and what they needed back then does 
AQ>  not mean that it is necesarily applicable today.

     There is also an amendment process.  If there is no 
amendment then no one since then found it necessary to change the 
2nd.  

AQ> MG>      They can not do so even though the repeal of the 2nd 
AQ> MG> has been introduced every year for the last ten.  Your 
AQ> MG> ignorance of the Constitution is showing.

AQ>  I do not profess to be an expert on you constitution but I 
AQ>  thought that it should be a dynamic thing that keeps 
AQ>  changing with the times.  

     What you think it should be and what it is are two entirely 
different things.  There is a process for change.  It has been 
done many times, most recently three years ago.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1122)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 16:11:10
Subject: 4th Amendment Rights                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: LES LEMKE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/17/94 - 0009691
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                             ARTICLE IV

        The  right  of  the people to be secure in their persons,
    houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and
    seizures,  shall not be violated,  and no warrants shall issue,
    but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and
    particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
    persons or things to be seized.

                                - The United States Constitution


 The underlining in the following article has been done by me to draw
 your attention to the articles which were confiscated.

 Area: Aen_News
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Date : Jun 09 '94, 00:44                                            Scn
 From : Kevin Schmid                                          1:345/29.0
 To   : All
 Subj : Latest TYRANNY by the NWO in Hawaii!!
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

     
                       NEW WORLD ORDER MOVES IN HAWAII!!
                                     
                 The Christian Volunteers Information Service
                           Reported by Lynn Shaffer


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE!
8 JUNE 1994, 12:AM

    Late this afternoon at approx 4:30 pm a swat style raid was 
conducted by various agencies of the U.S. government at a Hawaii
Kai residence.  Ivy West and her daughter returned to their rented
home and entered the premises as nothing appeared out of the ordinary.  
Agents suddenly appeared brandishing firearms, they were actually 
already in and around the house.  According to her daughter, the 
multi-agency team was made up of IRS, BATF, and FBI, etc, who were 
very heavily armed and wearing body armor.  They also were equiped 
with laptop computers, and surveillance equipment. They allegedly had 
search warrants and only asked if there were weapons on the premises.
(None were found.)  It is not know at this time whether the warrants
were legal and/or properly served.  Agents searched and ransacked 
the 3 level home which contained a number of roomates who were home 
at the time.

    Miss West remains in a Honolulu jail where they are claiming to 
be able to hold her for 48 hours without charges.  No charges have
yet been filed. They are not allowing her any visitors or phone calls 
at this time.
    
    Agents confiscated documents, personal records, and computer 
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
equipment, fax machine, phones, etc. Agents prepared an itemized 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
list of things taken which was labled:  "Tax Propaganda".  Among 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
the items stolen were Videos such as "Waco, The Big Lie", "Waco II",
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
and videos concerning the Weaver murders/seige.  Ivy had recently 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
been conducting radio interviews with attorney Linda Thompson and
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
discussing the ever increasing abuse of power by "our" government.  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
[END]

    Editor's note:  Is Ivy being made an example of as warning to
all of us who are on the front lines here in Hawaii?  Please keep
her and this situation in your prayers...

GBY!


*** GEcho 1.00
 # Origin: "Be Wise As Serpents"  Honolulu, Hawaii (1:345/29)

 ------------------------------------------------------------------


  Welcome to Hitler's Germany - 1994 style.



... *                                                                          

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1123)
To:      Susana Atanasova                       24 Jun 94 16:54:10
Subject: WACO                                   

SA> Personally, I am a 33 year old AMERICAN BORN & BRED FEMALE...

     Who breeds human females?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1124)
To:      Pete Bucy                              24 Jun 94 16:58:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>      If David was not required to surrender, as some on this 
PB>      echo claim, then why would Lee Harvey Oswald be 
PB>      required to surrender?

     Where did you come up with this red herring?  When WAS LHO 
required to surrender?  He was arrested.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1125)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 17:01:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> PB> Except that the press (international and otherwise) was kept 
AQ> PB> a few miles away and couldn't really see what was going on.  
AQ> PB> Telephoto lenses simply showed vehicles and occasional 
AQ> PB> helicopters.

AQ>  Nobody is going to believe that they would shoot unarmed 
AQ>  people 

     Are you saying their court testimony was perjured?  They 
testified to shooting anything that moved.

     The helicopters certainly were shooting through the roof on 
the first day.  

     They were trying to kill everything in the house.

     Didn't your news magazines tell you all this?  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1126)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 17:06:10
Subject: Waco                                   

AQ>  I am not saying that you should go in and bomb every house 
AQ>  with a suspect in and the BATF pdid go in all wrong but 
AQ>  what I am trying to say is that they had to use a little 
AQ>  bit of prudence because I know that I for one would not try 
AQ>  to knock on somebodys door and try to arrest them if I had 
AQ>  reason to believe that they had grenades, and automatic 
AQ>  weopons and were prepared to use them.

     As you know there was no reason for any such belief.  

AQ>  Just because Koresh and co.  were not our employees, does 
AQ>  that mean that is OK to excuse them committing any crimes.  
AQ>  Because the BATF acted stupid does that mean that anything 
AQ>  the BDs did was ok.

     Self defense has always sounded like a good thing to me.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1127)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 17:10:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ>  I am not trying to say that the abuse constitutes reason 
AQ>  for the BATF to beccome inolved but it helps to show that 
AQ>  Koresh was no angel as people have been implying in this 
AQ>  debate.  The reason that the BATF became involved is that a 
AQ>  lot of people were becoming worried about the amount of 
AQ>  fire power they were accumulating and the report that there 
AQ>  was grenades in the compound.

     Guns are like cars.  You can only use one at a time.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1128)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:25:10
Subject: Waco #5                                

      Carrying in a portable radio Wayne demanded, "Listen to
this.  They are saying we started it."
     It was a press conference called by the government, the BATF
it turned out.  Now the speaker plainly stating they were fired
upon with a .50 caliber machinegun from the tower.
     "Wayne, was their anyone in the tower?"
     "Not that I know of."
     "Then what could have given them the idea there was a
machinegun up there?"
     "I don't know."
     Next the speaker told of their suspicions of child abuse.
     With that David came out of his bed before collapsing in
pain.  "That again," he whispered.  Every time some busybody from
wants to come out here they bring up that story.  I invited them
out here to look around last summer.  Why did they have to kill
my children?"  Infection was setting in.  He was not the old
David Koresh now.  He was weeping where David Koresh would have
shown strength.  They had only aspirin for fever and pain.
     "David, you have to rest but you have to hear this too.  I
am sorry."
     "If I were Italian I would have named you my consiglieri
long ago."  An old joke but the best he could must for his
lawyer lieutenant.
     The statement was opened for questioning.  An unindentified
voice asked if there was a possibility of drugs being used.  The
speaker denied it.  "At least they don't think we are drug
dealers."
     The phone rang.  It was amazing it had survived given the
condition of David's room.  Bullet holes were everywhere.
Everything was stained with blood.  The smell of noxious smoke
was everywhere.  Two men severely wounded had been taken prisoner
and one body was found.  None of his people had been in the room
until after the cease fire.  What had happened was
unexplainable.
     "This is David."
     "This is the BATF.  You are ordered to surrender.  Come out
unarmed with your hands up."
     "The Lord has commanded us to turn the other cheek but I can
not leave on my own.  I will tell my people of your order.  They
may comply if they feel the Lord commands it."
     "Koresh we know you are the leader and you can order them."
     "I can order them.  But after the cease fire you murdered
two of my people.  They were unarmed.  If they wish to turn their
cheeks to murderers I will neither stop them nor counsel them to
do so, save to repeat the word of the Lord."
     "They were armed and shot at us.  You broke the cease fire."
     "I do not send armed men to work on the water tower.  My
people do not carry guns while off of our land."
     "They were armed.
     "Have it as you will.  Goodbye."
     "Wayne, can we call the people at the press conference and
tell them what really happened?"
     "I have tried that.  Every phone line is answer by them"
with a note of disgust.  "We are cut off."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1129)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:27:10
Subject: Waco #6                                

c      David was approaching a delerium state from the infection of
his wounds when the BATF called and offered him a radio address
in return for surrender.  He was not certain of the terms of the
offer but there was enough of the old Koresh left to believe he
was being offered the opportunity to speak to the country.  He
had many teachings and sermons prepared for the world.
     Wayne came to his room.  "David, try to listen to me.  Did
you agree to surrender for radio time?"
     A very tired "what" passed his lips.
     "Did you agree to speak on the radio?"
     "Yes.  They asked for a teaching."
     "Did you agree to leave afterward?"
     "We will all leave here some day."
     "No, David, listen to me.  Did you make a deal to leave as
soon as your teaching was complete?"
     "I do not remember.  Who says I did?"
     "It's the damn radio again.  They announced a deal.  I can't
believe they would be saying this knowing your condition."
     "The lord will give me the strength."
===
     The next day he found the presence of mind to take an
overdose of aspirin and struggle up from his state enough to
remember one of his teachings.  He lost track of time and mixed
several different teachings and rambled on for almost three
hours.  Stations that had agreed to carry it around the country
dropped it after the first half hour.
===
     "David, listen to me.  They are demanding we surrender now.
Can you tell me anything before I answer?"
     David could not.  The aspirin had worn off and he was gone.
     Wayne called back and said that he could not confirm the
agreement with Dave and until he could he would make no decision
in his place.  
     At the next morning's press conference Wayne was enraged by
two announcements.  The first being that David had reneged on his
deal when that was not what had happened.  The second did his
blood pressure even less good.  It was announced the children
were being held hostage and that the FBI hostage rescue team was
being called in to take over.
     The children being held hostage in their own home was the
worst lie he could imagine.  But the new conference went on to
hint darkly of child abuse by David confined to his bed in a
state of delirium.  There was not one word in the press briefing
of what Wayne had told them.  There was not one truthful word in
the press conference.  Wayne was fuming but he did not bother
David.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1130)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:29:10
Subject: Waco #6                                

      In the morning those who had chosen to leave and those who
had chosen to send out their children assembled in the chapel.
It had been the first priority for repair.  The damage from the
grenades had been mostly painted over but many of the hundreds of
bullet holes were still left.  They had not laid in enough
supplies to repair the results of an attack like this.
     The adults who chose to leave said they trusted the
government and believed their rights would be protected.  Those
who chose to send out their child felt the government would
certainly not harm them.  The government had promised to put them
under house arrest and send the children to family member.
     The adults who chose to stay believed with David and Wayne
that it was matter of where spend the rest of their lives.  Those
who chose to keep their children said they would never trust
their own children in the hands of strangers.
     David had pointed to the press briefings where the
government had said it was willing to wait forever.  He repeated
his teaching that the government would eventually come to destroy
them and to the constant stream of lies from the government but
to no avail.  He did his best not to give advice but teaching.
Those who kept their children chose to trust the government in a
manner that would permit their families to remain together.
     And so they left.  
     The children were given to social workers rather than their
extended families despite the promises.
     The adults who left were arrested and put in jail without
charges.  That was their right that they expected to be
protected even if the house arrest was a lie.
     Upon hearing the radio in the morning, Wayne remarked that
that was what he had been trying to say but perhaps he was too
much of a lawyer to get it across.
     David tried to console him by saying they probably did not
want to believe they could be held without charges.
     "Dave, you do know this means if we stay here for twenty
years they will be held for twenty years without charges?  If we
stay here until we die they will stay in prison until they die
and never have their day in court.  I did not want that on my
conscience."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1131)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:30:10
Subject: Waco #8                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Last Call
     "Koresh, leave your gas mask on.  You don't have to answer.
We know you are a smart man.  Your children have now been exposed
to CS gas for six hours now.
     "The first symptoms of chemical pneumonia will set in in 24
hours.  They will start to die in 72 hours.
     "I know you are a smart man, Koresh.  You have one hour to
come out or their deaths will be on your hands."
     David hung up the phone visibly shaken.  He had seen a lot
but he never thought they would go ahead with it.  "Devil
worshipping murders," he cursed into his mask, "That bitch in
Washington murdered my children!"
     "Steve!  Wayne!" his voice breaking in rage, "Get in here."
     He was barely heard through the mask.  He told them of the
phone call.  Barely controlling his anger Wayne added, "That the
same thing they used against the Warsaw Ghetto.  What are they
going to do next?  Burn us alive?"



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1132)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 17:32:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> LG>     CM>  What LAW did they break which warranted the initial attack 
AQ> LG>     CM>  and murder by the BATF?

AQ>  From what I understand there was complaints to a line that 
AQ>  the BATF had set up to try and get people who were into 
AQ>  illegal arms 

     That was a creation of the scriptwriters for the TV movie. 

     You are aware it was predicted here that it was only a 
matter of time before people were going to cite that movie as 
evidence.

and there was also the matter of the grandes 
AQ>  that were delivered to the compound 

     WW II practice grenades.

and whether you think 
AQ>  they were just praactice granades or not would make no 
AQ>  difference as the BATF would have to go on the assumption 
AQ>  that they were real and that the BDs were prepared to use 
AQ>  them as I know if I was in that position, I would be 
AQ>  hesitent to attack without adequate firepower.

     That is absolutely stupid.  They had to make no such 
assumption.  The info was given them by a UPS driver and that 
gave them the seller.  They were obligated to investigate the 
sender.  That is where they would have found they were practice 
grenades.  

     That is what the BATF described in the warrant as grenade 
casings.  

     You really should learn what you are talking about before 
you post.

     I know, you saw a grenade used in the movie, something the 
BATF never claimed.

AQ> LG> AQ>  Are you so sure the BATF fired first and why did they not 
AQ> LG> AQ>  surrender when they did have the chance instead of wairing 
AQ> LG> AQ>  until everyone is dead?

AQ>  I think that I have answered the wuestion of why they 
AQ>  attack 

     You have only condemned them.

and even though they botched it completely they had 
AQ>  to be aware of the firepower that was inside the compound 
AQ>  but that still doesn't answer my question, why did he want 
AQ>  to take all of those innocent people with him, esp if he 
AQ>  was as much as a prophet as you seem to think he was.  

     As you have concluded Koresh had the power to cloud men's 
minds it is impossible to you to comprehend they may simply have 
chosen to stay voluntarily.  

     First you create one unfounded position and then use it to 
explain another unfounded position.  

He 
AQ>  knew what the final outcome was going to be as if you 
AQ>  listened to any of his sermons they dealt with the 
AQ>  apocolypse and the end times.  He also thought that he was 
AQ>  the lamb of God and as such then he was destined to die 
AQ>  fighting the unbelievers.

     How many have you listened to?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1133)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 17:41:10
Subject: Waco                  1/               

AQ>  I am not going to try to justify the BATF but I do know and 
AQ>  anyone who has read any of Koreshes sermons 

     How many have you read?

would know that 
AQ>  thet is the way he wanted it to end as he thought that he 
AQ>  was Christ and that was going to be his crucifiction.

     Please quote from some of his sermons to demonstrate this.

     I know, you have not read any but your magazines told you 
all about it -- or you saw it on the movie -- whichever you wish.

AQ>  For being scattered all around the building as you say they 
AQ>  were then they did not waste muh time in getting their guns 
AQ>  and returning fire or were there already some in place just 
AQ>  waiting for the BATF as they knew the BATF was coming.

     Just how long did it take to return fire?  Your source 
please.

AQ>  It has a lot to do with people trying to justify what 
AQ>  Koresh did or was doing in the ma,e of religion nd the 
AQ>  freedom thereof.

     He was doing nothing under the perview of the BATF to 
warrant an attack by 100 screaming, grenade throwing, guns 
blazing men in black.

AQ>  I said that I don't agree with what the BATF did but I did 
AQ>  not say that I think they did anything illegal as if I had 
AQ>  to take a group of buildings that I knew contained grenades 
AQ>  and automatic weopons 

     But you know there were none.

AQ>  or at least I thought they did 

     And you know there was no reason to believe it.

and I 
AQ>  knew the people in control of those weopons were prepared 
AQ>  to use them, 

     And you know there was no reason to believe that.

then I don't know if I would have walked up to 
AQ>  the front door either.

     As long as you live in the same fantasy world as the BATF 
you would certainly believe they were armed to defend themselves 
against and attack by the government.  So the most intelligent 
thing you could think of to do would be to attack them.

     You and your friends are very stupid.

AQ>  Yes I am ccritical of the BDs.  They are not blameless in 
AQ>  all of thiss you know.  Koresh waanted a confrontation with 
AQ>  the "Unbelievers" and the BATF just happened to oblige him.  

     Deliberately and knowingly according to you.  

AQ>  Koresh also knew that he did not want to survive the 
AQ>  confrontation as he thought he was Christ and wanted to be 
AQ>  a martyre.

     You will of course quote from his sermons to demonstrate 
that.  If you are not are you at least willing to admit you have 
made it up?

AQ>  All I said was that I have no idea who fired first and 
AQ>  neither do you and I do not know if they were fireing back 
AQ>  but I imagine they were as there were several BATF agents 
AQ>  hit.

     The BATF testified to firing first.

AQ> JB>Do you understand how foolish your comments look?

AQ>  I could say the same thing about you as you have a habit of 
AQ>  repeating yourself as if the more you say something then 
AQ>  the closer it will be to the truth.

     And your habit of repeating from newsmagazines and a movie 
as evidence is rather tiring.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1134)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 17:56:10
Subject: Waco                  2/               

AQ>  For one thing it is a very naive assumption on your part to 
AQ>  think that people are always innocent until they are proven 
AQ>  guilty at least before they are arrested as the enforcement 
AQ>  agencies have to assume that a person is guilty when they 
AQ>  go to arrest them or they would not arrest anybody.  

     Innocent until proven guilty is a presumption of law.

As for 
AQ>  this case, when the BATF expected the BDs to have the 
AQ>  arsenal thet they did, then they had to assume that they 
AQ>  would use that arsenal.

     How does one use more than one gun at at time?  Please 
explain.  

AQ>  I is yyour main contention that the BATF fird first without 
AQ>  provocation and I don't think anybody can do that 

     BATF agents testified to it in court.  That is how it is 
known.

but I 
AQ>  know them BATF was trying to do a commando raid like the 
AQ>  SAS and withou the experience or expertise to pull it off.

     And is so doing they had no more protection than common 
street hoods until the warrant was served.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1135)
To:      Susana Atanasova                       24 Jun 94 18:03:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

SA>  WACO ridded oursociety of a loser and his "ilk".  

     Do you always favor exterminating undesirables?

The kids 
SA>  WERE innocent, and, HAD THEY NOT BEEN KILLED, 

     They why did the BATF kill some of them and the FBI poison 
the rest?

they would 
SA>  have grown up in that SICK environment around a crowd of 
SA>  LOSERS and perpetuated the cycle.....  BTAF did us all a 
SA>  FAVOR....

     Love your government baby killer.  You are a very strange 
person.

SA>  God Bless the BATF!!!

     Why do you like baby killers?

SA>  I want the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS to REMAIN UNTOUCHED,  I do 
SA>  not want to kiss butt to a bunch of losers and social 
SA>  rejects who can only congregate amongst themselves for any 
SA>  sense of community because they have been shunned by EVERY 
SA>  OTHER SECTOR OF THE REASONABLE "WINNER" world!!!

     Exterminate the vermin.  May I suggest labor camps?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1136)
To:      Susana Atanasova                       24 Jun 94 18:06:10
Subject: Waco - Murder By Our                   

SA>  Actually, I remember them as a PRIME EXAMPLE of folks like 
SA>  YOU, from my youth....
SA> 
SA>  My *FANTASY* life is quite alive and well and frequently 
SA>  boosted by REAL LIFE experiences....
SA> 
SA>  You should give REAL LIFE a try...  maybe you would become 
SA>  LESS BITTER, and able to ENJOY LIFE some....

     I view anything as better than being a person who believes 
in exterminating undesirables and murdering their children.  

     You are sick.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1137)
To:      Pete Bucy                              24 Jun 94 18:08:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>      I don't remember exactly how this string started, but I 
PB>      believe that someone said that David Koresh was 
PB>      innocent of all crimes because he died before the could 
PB>      be charged with any crimes or made to stand trial.

     No one said that.  YOU imagined it.  And then you proceeded 
to justify government actions based upon unsubstantiated 
allegations against him.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1138)
To:      Lester Garrett                         24 Jun 94 18:16:10
Subject: Zimmerman on PGP 2.6                   

LG>  Yup, I'm back on line with a 420 megger and DOS 6.2.  

     Don't forget Stacker.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1139)
To:      Jim Bell                               24 Jun 94 18:18:10
Subject: BATF "Tour" T-Shirt                    

     It appears the government has accepted liability for the 
fire.  

JB>          FEDS TO REPAY TEXAS HOSPITAL FOR BRANCH DAVIDIANS' 
JB>          MEDICAL CARE
JB> 
JB>  DALLAS - The federal government will reimburse Parkland 
JB>  Memorial Hospital in Dallas for more than half a million 
JB>  dollars for medical care provided last year to three 
JB>  members of the Branch Davidian group.
JB> 
JB>  On April 19, 1993, three patients were transported from 
JB>  Waco to Parkland's burn unit with injuries suffered in the 
JB>  fire that destroyed the Branch Davidian compound and killed 
JB>  most of the group's members.  Medical bills for the burn 
JB>  treatments of the three patients totaled $526,477.25.
JB> 
JB>  Hospital officials asked that the federal government pay 
JB>  the bills because the fire resulted from a conflict between 
JB>  the Branch Davidians and FBI agents.  When the federal 
JB>  government refused to pay for the medical care, Parkland 
JB>  attorneys sued.
JB> 
JB>  "Before we filed the lawsuit, we asked our congressmembers 
JB>  to talk to [U.S.  Attorney General] Janet Reno to help get 
JB>  these bills paid," said Karen Neal, staff attorney for 
JB>  Parkland and primary attorney on the case.  "Both Sen.  [Kay 
JB>  Bailey] Hutchinson and Sen.  [Phil] Gramm got involved."

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1140)
To:      Pete Bucy                              24 Jun 94 18:24:10
Subject: Davidians are sentenced                

PB>      It appears that the Davidians that so many folks on 
PB>      this echo have defended for so long are on their way to 
PB>      prison for a long time.  The Davidians were sentenced to 
PB>      terms from five years to forty years.  If you read the 
PB>      messages on this echo from Terry Liberty-Parker and 
PB>      others you would have believed that they were never 
PB>      convicted of any crimes.

     There is a thing called the appeal process.  If the USSC 
finds the same way the FLSC found then all the convictions will 
be overturned based upon the manner in which the warrant was 
served.

PB>      At no time did anyone ever list the crimes for which 
PB>      the Davidians were convicted.  Not once! I have received 
PB>      enough messages to fill a book, but no one ever 
PB>      detailed the crimes that the Davidians were convicted 
PB>      of committing.

     I listed those crimes several times.  Perhaps you were 
simply asleep?  You obviously have no idea what they were.


*** Count One -- Conspiracy to Murder Federal Officers: This is
the most detailed count against all twelve defendants. The charge
reads, in part, "It was part of this conspiracy that Vernon K.
Howell, also known as David Koresh, would and did advocate and
encourage an armed confrontation, which he described as a ''war''
between his followers and the United States government." Other
parts of the conspiracy included: creating the "Mighty Men" unit,
establishing the "Mag Bag" business location; acquiring or
assisting in the acquisition of weapons to be used in this "war,"
assisting in converting legally purchased semi- automatic rifles
to fully automatic rifles and inert hand grenade shells into live
grenades, preparing for the arrival of Federal agents on February
28th, endeavoring to enter Mount Carmel after the shootout,
forcibly resisting the execution of a search warrant from
February 28th until each individual left Mount Carmel, firing
upon tanks on April 19th, co-conspiring with David Koresh and
Steve Schneider to spread flammable liquids throughout Mount
Carmel and to start the fires within Mount Carmel. The remaining
counts below are quoted directly from the Justice Department
report.

*** Count Two -- Aiding and Abetting the Murder of Federal
Officers: All twelve defendants were charged with aiding and
abetting the murders of the four ATF agents on February 28, 1993.

*** Count Three -- Using a Firearm During a Crime of Violence:
Schroeder, Branch, Whitecliff, Castillo, Fagan, Fatta, Craddock,
Avraam and Riddle were charged with using a firearm during a
crime of violence in connection with the first ATF shootout on
February 28, 1993.

*** Count Four -- Aiding and Abetting the Attempted Murder of a
Federal Officer: Allison (Nash) and Kendrick were charged with
aiding and abetting the attempted murder of an ATF agent during
the second shootout on February 28.

*** Count Five -- Using a Firearm During a Crime of Violence:
Kendrick was charged with using two firearms in connection with
the second ATF shootout on February 28.

*** Count Six -- Using a Firearm During a Crime of Violence:
Allison (Nash) was charged with using a firearm during the second
ATF shootout on February 28.

*** Count Seven -- Possession of an Unregistered Destructive
Device: Craddock was charged with possessing an explosive grenade
on April 19, 1993.

*** Count Eight -- Conspiracy to Possess an Unregistered
Destructive Device: Craddock was charged with conspiring with
Koresh to possess an explosive grenade during the 51-day
standoff.

*** Count Nine -- Conspiracy to Possess and Unlawfully
Manufacture Machineguns: Fatta was charged with conspiring to
manufacture and possess machineguns during 1992 and early 1993.

*** Count Ten -- Aiding and Abetting the Unlawful Possession of
Machineguns: Fatta was charged with aiding and abetting Koresh in
the unlawful possession of machineguns during 1992 and early
1993.

PB>      If I were a Davidian I might think that it was a 
PB>      conspiracy.  Instead I know that it was just part of the 
PB>      propaganda and lies that were spread to try to defend a 
PB>      lunatic who destroyed his followers in his own hell.

     You again post from your personal fantasy world.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1141)
To:      Albert Quinn                           24 Jun 94 18:33:10
Subject: Mt. Carmel                             

AQ> DV> It was their home. Why should they have left ?

AQ>  If Koresh was such a prophet as you guys maintain then he 
AQ>  must have known the final outcome and so I will ask you 
AQ>  again why did he not let his own children leave?

     You apparently have not comprehension of sarcasm.  I started 
that prophet idea by pointing out that the government believed 
it.  Else they would not a put it in the warrant.  Else it was 
another example of perjury in the warrant.

AQ>  When I hear enough allegations and statements from Times 
AQ>  Newsweek and McLeans and they were even repeated in the 
AQ>  Nation which critisizes everything the governemnt does

     If you had read those carefully you would have found they 
were quoting BATF and FBI sources.  Their lies have been well 
demonstrated here.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1211)
To:      Todd Rourke                            25 Jun 94 05:52:10
Subject: Thieves in Washington                  

TR>     "This is just a continuation of the arrogance of power 
TR>  which has been exhibited by this president and his 
TR>  administration," Burton said.  "They were on the ship as 
TR>  guests, and they stole items that the American taxpayer has 
TR>  paid for."

TR>    The memo listed the missing items as:
TR>    --13 blue towels with the ship's insignia, worth $11 each;
TR>    --4 bathrobes with the ship's insignia, worth $35 each;
TR>    --12 plain white bathrobes worth $15 apiece;
TR>    --55 white towels worth $1.80 apiece.

     More interesting, they could have gone to ship's stores when 
it was open and bought all of that and more.  They could have 
gotten traditional memorabilia like a ship's mug or coffee cup.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1286)
To:      John Clifton                           25 Jun 94 16:00:10
Subject: Lawyer Matt fired?                     

JC> >      Clinton said he was not at the hotel.  Then that he did 
JC> >  not have a room.  Then that she did not come to the room.  
JC> >  Then he got an attorney who told him to shut up.

JC>      He still gets his day in court... right?

     He doesn't appear to want it.

JC> >      ANY use of public funds or what is provided by public 
JC> >  funds by a public official for personal purposes is a 
JC> >  federal crime.
JC> > 
JC> >      Is there something about that which is unclear?

JC>       Who says Trooper Joe is telling the truth?  A jury 
JC>  will have to establish "the facts" of the case.

     He is hardly the first to tell the same story.

JC>       It would *not* necessarily have been a crime for 
JC>  Trooper Joe to escort an employee to Gov'nor Slick's room.  
JC>  A crime would only have been committed if the *purpose* of 
JC>  the visit had nothing to do with him playing gov'nor.

     Telling her the governor said "you make my knees knock" is 
sufficient to make it a crime.

JC> JC>       You figure her hubby is dangling it over her head:
JC> JC> "Win or you're history, bitch?"

JC> > I have no idea.  It is a recent marriage.

JC>      Obviously, you're speculating on her motives.

     I did not start the speculation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1287)
To:      Jeff Welch                             25 Jun 94 21:05:10
Subject: More linda thompson                    

JW> MG>JW>   What context is that?  She claims as the basis for her 
JW> MG>JW>   authority, 10 USC 311--which though it does establish two 
JW> MG>JW>   different arms of the militia, it bars her from serving.

JW> MG>    C. 10 U.S.C. 311 (from my xerox):  Excerpt

JW> I've got my own copy, thanks.

JW> MG>         "311.  Militia:  Composition and classes

JW> MG>         (a) The militia of the United States consists of all
JW> MG>             able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except
JW> MG>             as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years
JW> MG>             of age who are, or who have made a declaration of
JW> MG>             intention to become, citizens of the United States and
JW> MG>             of female citizens of the United States who are
JW> MG>             commissioned officers of the National Guard.

JW> MG>         (b) The classes of the militia are --

JW> MG>              (1) the organized militia, which consists of the
JW> MG>                  National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

JW> MG>              (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
JW> MG>                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JW> MG>                  members of the militia who are not members of the
JW> MG>                  National Guard or the Naval Militia."

JW> MG>     which does not require a National Guard commission.

JW> It does for females.  Go back and read the first part, re-quoted here
JW> for your convenience:

JW> MG>(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
JW> MG>             able-bodied males
JW>                 ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^
JW> Again, that's "able-bodied MALES", with the following exception for
JW> women noted:

JW> MG>             and
JW> MG>             of female citizens of the United States who are
JW> MG>             commissioned officers of the National Guard.
JW>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^

JW>  The only female citizens allowed to serve in the militia 
JW>  are females who are commissioned officers in the National 
JW>  Guard.  Since the *unorganized* militia consists of only 
JW>  those persons NOT members of the National Guard, women are 
JW>  allowed only to serve in the *organized* militia.  Only 
JW>  "able bodied men" not members of the National Guard or 
JW>  Naval Militia constitute the unorganized militia.

     It is a minor difference that would not withstand Supreme 
Court scrutiny these days.  The 1776 militias were were certainly 
supported by women and at least one woman is reported to have 
operated a cannon battery.  The law is clearly out of line with 
the reality of this situation.

JW>  If you missed anything, here's the breakdown:
JW> 
JW>  The only women included in the composition of the militia 
JW>  are those serving as commissioned officers in the National 
JW>  Guard.

     However if they show up to drill I don't see anyone turning 
them away.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1288)
To:      Paul Smith                             25 Jun 94 21:18:10
Subject: Nonsmokers' ally                       

PS> MG>      It is truly amazing that a court can rule as true 
PS> MG> things that are untrue.  As you know it is not a toxin and 
PS> MG> of course the idea of any health risks have been completely 
PS> MG> discredited.

PS>  Nicotine, only one of the 4000 chemicals including 400 
PS>  toxins (that's poisons) and 43 known carcinogens is a 
PS>  highly toxic substance.

     So what?  There is no evidence of harm from second hand 
smoke.  You know that.  It is a problem only in your fantasy 
life.

PS>  You can argue the politics of banning or taxing tobacco but 
PS>  you cannot refute scientific fact Matt.  FACT - Tobacco 
PS>  smoke contains poisonous chemicals.  FACT - Nicotine is 
PS>  toxic.

     Fact is there is no evidence of harm to anyone but the 
smoker.  You would prefer to believe otherwise.  I have no idea 
why it pleases you to believe things for which there is no 
evidence.

PS>  THE HEALTH RISKS HAVE *NOT* BEEN DISCREDITED.  Only the 
PS>  EPA's report and its sources of information are in question 
PS>  and that is certainly NOT a dead issue.

     The Congressional Research Service did the third and most 
recent discreditation of the same group of studies.  And unless 
you missed the history, the EPA started with a larger group of 
studies.  That was discredited.  They answered some of the 
objections with the second study but then they did not have a 
case.  So they selected only the studies that agreed with their 
desired conclusion and even then couldn't come up with anything 
serious.

     Sorry, the subject is a dead issue save for those who wish 
to believe without evidence.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1289)
To:      Jeff Welch                             25 Jun 94 21:31:10
Subject: OLLIE NORTH FOR SENAT                  

JW> MG>     When was he convicted?  There has never been a conviction
JW> MG>for treason in this country.

JW> My apologies--Burr was *tried* for treason, but acquitted.

JW>  It was John Brown who was tried, convicted, and executed 
JW>  for treason.

     Sedition.

JW> MG>JW>   What document defines a country's status as "enemy" only 
JW> MG>JW>   if we are involved in a declared war against them?

JW> I'll repeat the question above, since you didn't answer it.

     No document.  You are asserting enemy has some meaning just 
what you want it to mean.  In this case you are asserting Iran 
was an enemy because of a the statements of the Ayatollah.

JW> MG>JW>  Oh, then I guess he's just an admitted liar, then.  Gee,
JW> MG>JW>  good thing he wasn't under oath.  That *really* makes me
JW> MG>JW>  trust him (NOT!).

JW> MG>     YOU are the one who alleged perjury not me.  You created
JW> MG>another charge entirely

JW> Actually, I never mentioned the term "perjury".  All I said was that
JW> North is an admitted liar, which is undisputed.

     What what the term you used before you learned he was not 
under oath?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1290)
To:      Dave Christian                         25 Jun 94 21:44:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

DC>  DC> Except this one has been convicted of it.

DC>  MG> The conviction was overturned.  It might as well have never
DC>  MG> happened.

DC>  But it DID happen Matt.  You know it, I know it, Oliver 
DC>  knows it, and so does everyone else who follows the news.
     
     And for most of his supporters that is one more reason to 
support him.

DC>  But I'm glad to see that you are such a stickler for due 
DC>  process.
DC> 
DC>  I'll make sure I save this message and resurface it if 
DC>  Rostenkowski is acquited, Matt.
     
     Haven't I always?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1291)
To:      Albert Quinn                           25 Jun 94 23:59:10
Subject: Waco                                   

AQ> KS>AQ>What evidence do you have for the BATF shooting first?

AQ> KS>Their testimony.

AQ>  I was just rereading an article in Time magazine and it 
AQ>  says and I quote "From the moment we stepped out of the 
AQ>  trailer, we were under fire from everywhere" says one of 
AQ>  the agents who was pinned to the ground for 45 minutes.

     You need to also post the date and source of that 
information.  As you know that is contrary to the sworn testimony 
of the BATF agents at the trial.  Why would you continue to post 
what you know is wrong?

AQ> KS> He was shot when he opened the door to the compound when the 
AQ> KS> agents first showed up and began attacking.  According to 
AQ> KS> reports he was unarmed at that time.  If not allowed to 
AQ> KS> surrender then, why would anyone believe that he would be 
AQ> KS> allowed to peacably surrender later?

AQ>  I have heard that before but have seen no reference to it.  
AQ>  Can you supply me with a reference that I can look up so 
AQ>  that I will be able to refute your claim.

     You know from the testimony of the BATF agents at the trial 
the attack plan had no contingency for accepting surrender.  It 
was planned to continue no matter who did what.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1292)
To:      Albert Quinn                           26 Jun 94 00:05:10
Subject: WACO                                   

AQ> JW> In NO CASE does a human being EVER "lose" free will, other 
AQ> JW> than in death.  If what you describe were the case, how do 
AQ> JW> you explain those who left the Branch Davidians?

AQ>  Explain the one who stayed or the majority of the Japenesse 
AQ>  in the 2 world war or the majority of Russians ever since.
     
     Lets see.  You are claiming either that 200 million Russians 
had no free will or that Koresh single-handedly held them all at 
gun point for 51 days.

     Which is it?  If neither, please explain what you are trying 
to say.


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+++■■■■■ r_940629 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1264)
To:      All                                    26 Jun 94 02:27:10
Subject: Call Me Master                         

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                       Call Me Master
                             by
                          Anonymous (c) 1994 <6/26>

     Who made you the laborer for me?  I quit work.  I live off
of the government.  Thank you very much.
     Could I work?  Yes.  Do I choose to work?  No.  Can I live
without working?  Of course.  You are my slave.  You work to
support me.  Why should I work?
     I have a right to have a family and have them fed and have
medical care for them.  It was good of you to choose to support
me in raising my family.
     You have given me an apartment, medical care, food, spending
money, a telephone, cable TV, and a nice color TV.  I am taking a
course to learn the skills to flip burgers and when I complete
it they will pay be for taking the course.  I have a nice car in
mind.  Thank you.  But you will never catch me being nice to a
burger.
     You folks are being very good to me.  But then I should not
pretend to thank you.  You are not doing it out of charity.  You
would never do this out of charity.  It was the people I vote for
who decided I should be the master and you should be the slave.
     Look at it from my point of view.  If I, shall we say, cheat
a little, they slap my wrist.  If you refuse to pay for me, they
take away everything you own and put you in jail.  I can get away
with murder.  You can't do jack shit.
     If you don't like me you can write your Congressman.  If I
don't like you I get prime time coverage of my latest demand upon
your income.
     I got mine, Jack.  If you can't afford to take your family
to the doctor, tough.  I have Medicaid.  If your family is
hungry, up yours.  I have food stamps.   If you can't make the
rent, tough noogies. The government pays my rent.
     I got mine, Jack.
     What am I going to do when my children are ready for
college?  They are at the top of the list for a free college
education because I earn no income.  I would hurt their chances
were I to go to work.  Thank you for paying for their college
while you can not afford it for your children.  You may call me,
Master.  You are lucky I don't whip you when my check arrives
late.  
     I am better than you.  I have more civil rights than you and
I do nothing for them.  If I have a problem with the law I get
help free.  If you have a problem with a law, you go into debt
for years, maybe bankrupt.  And if I am lucky enough for you to
injure me.  I am in fat city and you are in real trouble.  But if
I injure you, you can't get blood from a turnip.
     Listen up, slave.  Stay just the way you are.  But I wish
you would breed a little more.  I need a guaranteed car.
                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

 Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1346)
To:      Michael Pilon                          26 Jun 94 18:26:10
Subject: VERBAL ABUSE                           

MP>  MG>  A  question we can discuss is how many women aspire to 
MP>  MG>  being victims? Every time you see or read or hear of a 
MP>  MG>  woman telling about how she was beaten you have a 
MP>  MG>  professional victim.

MP>  Aspire to become victims.  Nothing like the thrill of a good 
MP>  beatting, having a few teeth knocked out to give one a 
MP>  sense of well being !

     Certainly there was a discussion of masochism in your course 
of study.  Do you really doubt it happens?

MP>  MG>  What does she get out of it?  First, the attention of 
MP>  MG>  friends, neighbors and the police.  Second, the courts 
MP>  MG>  automatically side with the poor, weeping victim on the 
MP>  MG>  stand.  Third, if the man should want to get back into his 
MP>  MG>  own home and see his own children again it will be on her 
MP>  MG>  terms.

MP>  Matt your ignorance of spousal abuse nakes you seem a 
MP>  pathetic figure.  I work with a number of women who have 
MP>  been victims of spousal abuse, one has three children.  Till 
MP>  she finally got rid of her husband she received death 
MP>  threats, was beaten, had vertebrae fractured.  Why did she 
MP>  do nothing about it ?  Was she "LOOKING " for it? Well for 
MP>  one thing she had known her husband for 2 years before they 
MP>  married, all went well for a while until he became 
MP>  posessive, jealous etc.  Then came the slaps, the apologies 
MP>  which progressed to death threats.  Not exactly a healthy 
MP>  and fun environment, read a bit about it.  The wife is 
MP>  almost brainwashed into feeling she is to blame.  The 
MP>  threats are against her and the kids.  SHe has little sense 
MP>  of how to react.  The OJ case may just awaken many to the 
MP>  real problems in some relationships.  Obviously it hasn't 
MP>  hit you yet !

     You asked the right question first but did not answer it.  
Why did she do nothing about it?

     On the other hand what do you know of her family life?  Did 
she make life a living hell for him every waking moment until he 
snapped?  Please tell all the details.  I am certain you are 
willing to believe her implicitely.  

     If you will look at the records the "abuse" is equally 
divided between the sexes.  

     I am also very familiar with a case of the woman doing the 
every waking moment provocation.  The last of many allegations 
that she was being beaten was made after he left because she 
started hitting him.  She was the very model of a crying, abused 
spouse in the judges hearing room.  She claimed to have been 
beaten and had bruises to prove it.  But they weren't there when 
he left.

     It was not the last he heard of her, including another case 
of a claim of being beaten but he demonstrated he was no where 
near there at the time.  But she was still there weeping in 
court.

MP>  Matt this post is a vacant as any you have ever posted.  It 
MP>  is not food for thought or even provocative it is just 
MP>  plain the ravings of someone who is not really aware of 
MP>  what goes on beyond his fron door !

     The objective was to get the other side of the issue into 
discussion.  I assure there is another side.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1347)
To:      Pete Bucy                              26 Jun 94 18:37:10
Subject: Waco                                   

PB>  MG> Where did you get the idea there was a basement?

PB>  MG>  As you know the one place they did drive over which was 
PB>  MG>  unsupported killed people from blunt force trauma when the 
PB>  MG>  ceiling collapsed on them.  You are right, it could not 
PB>  MG>  support the weight.

PB>      I heard during the siege that there was a basement and 
PB>      that the building had a wood floor structure.  Was this 
PB>      data incorrect? I heard that they had some type of 
PB>      below-ground survival-type structure.

     There was a below ground structure but it was extended 
outside the building and not under it.

     It is the room where so many people died of blunt force 
trauma when the tanks collapsed the concrete ceiling on top of 
the people hiding there to escape the gas.  They were driving 
over it on the outside.

PB>      Did this building have a concrete slab on-grade?

     From what I have seen it had a plain wood post foundation.  
Lift up the floorboards and you see dirt.  It is nothing unusual.  
I had a house once where most of it was built like that.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1364)
To:      Sandra Peake                           26 Jun 94 21:36:10
Subject: Verbal abuse                           

SP> MG>      It would appear only reasonable in law to remove the 
SP> MG> presumption of victim status from the woman.  It should be 
SP> MG> recognized that women can just as easily be the cause of the 
SP> MG> abuse they receive.  Or shall it continued to be presumed 
SP> MG> that no man should ever snap under vicious verbal abuse 
SP> MG> every waking moment while knowing there will be no end until 
SP> MG> the woman gets the victim status she wants?

SP>     So it is your contention that, if the little woman nags, 
SP>     a good backhand in the chops is just what she is asking 
SP>     for, right?

     Obviously you only read selectively.  I did refer to the man 
being subjected to intense abuse every waking moment until he 
snaps.  You obviously did not read that part or you do not 
believe it.  

     But short of the response you are implying, NO, NO WOMAN has 
the right to nag, period.  It is a disgusting characteristic of 
some women and should be a matter of shame.

SP>     I'm going to turn your argument around.  If a woman has 
SP>     to ask a man to carry out his household duties, or 
SP>     remember a matter more than once, is this nagging? If 
SP>     so, why did she nag? BECAUSE HE DIDN'T DO WHAT HE WAS 
SP>     SUPPOSED TO! THerefore, he has made her into a nag; so 
SP>     why should he backhand his own creation?

     Backhanding under these circumstances is your choice of 
conditions, not the ones I proposed.  

     However, NO, NO woman has the right to nag, period.  Who the 
hell gave a woman that right?  Who is a woman to unilaterally 
determine what a man's duties are?  

     He made her into a nag?  She made him hit her?  It is the 
same excuse turned around.

SP>     I also suggest you are confusing men with hair trigger 
SP>     tempers with the norm, 

     If you had read my reference to every waking moment you 
would know I am talking the norm.

and you are doing a great 
SP>     disservice to decent men with enough self-control to 
SP>     defuse the situation by either removing their physical 
SP>     presence until they cool down, or by becoming more 
SP>     reasonable and doing that which she asked.

     Defuse a situation?  In my example as soon as he comes back 
it starts all over again.

SP>     One reason the "right to abuse" women was removed from 
SP>     law was because women ceased to be men's chattels.  No 
SP>     man can now consider a woman a thing, to be treated as 
SP>     he wishes.  (Wise men never did, AAMOF, not even in 
SP>     patriarchal times.)

     So when is the right to be self anointed judge of a man's 
duties and to run off at the mouth for days at a time going to be 
put back into law?

SP>     And, as events show, men often escalate from a backhand 
SP>     to a punch to severe beatings to murder, not only of 
SP>     their wives, but also their children, who never did "ask 
SP>     for it."  Women can be physical, also, but it is rare.  
SP>     Not as rare as it used to be, alas.

     Evidence shows household violence is equally distributed 
between men and women.  You should know that.

SP>     Any man who feels so tempted to lash out with his fists 
SP>     at his wife is immature, because he thinks violence will 
SP>     solve his problem.  

     But a bitch running off at the mouth for weeks at a time 
because he won't obey her petty, dictatorial decisions is a 
sensible, mature person.

It doesn't.  When she speaks (nags) 
SP>     again, he has to use stronger force next time.  

     Only children nag.

SP>     P.S.  I hate whiny, nagging women...and men.  But I also 
SP>     understand what made many of them the way they are.  

     Poor babies.  It just isn't their fault when it is a woman.  
But a man can't be made that way.  

     Get your excuses straight.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1365)
To:      Susana Atanasova                       26 Jun 94 21:48:10
Subject: Waco - Murder By Our                   

SA>  Do you now step even farther out of the realm of rational 
SA>  thought and infer that YOU know the content of MY 
SA>  fantasies?

     Everyone knows the content of your fantasies about Waco.  
You have been posting them publically.

SA>  I do not know the thread of this interaction with you, if 
SA>  there was one.  What are we discussing here?

     You jumped in without knowing?

SA>  Your one sentence reply to my responses to your statements 
SA>  has broken the debate.

     You were no debating.  You were publically fantasizing.
                            

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1366)
To:      Fred Taub                              26 Jun 94 23:20:10
Subject: Let's hear it                          

     
     Did you come here to post your newly discovered evidence of 
gas chambers?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1367)
To:      All                                    27 Jun 94 01:57:10
Subject: Rights                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Rights From Who?
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/27>

     Lets start with a few simple questions.  Does the Government
grant you the right to have a place to live?  Does the Government
grant you the right to food?  Does the government grant you the
right to have children?  Does the government grant you the right
to use fire?  Does the government grant you the right to defend
yourself?
     Did I hear a yes to any of these questions?  If that that is
the premise of our government.  That our rights came before the
government was created and shall exist no matter what the
government says or does and shall continue after the government
is long history.
     Our right to everything above can be traced back millions of
years where weapons for self defense were used by our pre-human
ancestors.  The idea there is a difference between our rights
and our human nature is tenuous at best.  No real difference can
be demonstrated.
     Weapons are our nature.  We inherited the use of weapons.
We evolved with the use of weapons.  Weapons are or means of
defense.  This is not something given to us by the government.
It is something we told the government it can not harm in any
manner.
     Let us continue with some harder questions.  Can the
government restrict the number of children you can have?  Can the
government determine the quality of your housing?  Can the
government determine what you can and can not eat?  Can the
government restrict your use of fire?  Can the government
restrict you to primitive weapons in the face of superior
weapons?
     I think I detect some equivocation out there.  Children?  If
you can afford them -- but who determines afford?  Housing?  Not
much movement there.  Food?  Not yet as long as the packaging
emphasizes all the current evils in food.  Use of fire?  Of
course not.
     But can the government restrict you to a club or knife in
the face of a gun?  So many agree it can.  I do not understand
why.  I do not understand why the government can restrict you to
an 8 round magazine in the face of a 19 round magazine.
     What I really to not understand is why anyone would accept
the government having this power.
     It has no such power.
     It may make it illegal but it can not take away the right to
self defense by the best means available.  Whose life is it?
     The government has no compelling interest in any particular
human life nor in any population level.  In fact given its
interest in birth control it would appear the government's
interest is in people dying as quickly as possible.  That the
government does not care you are forced into an unequal match
unless you are willing to risk the loss of everything you have
worked for all of your life is not in question.
     If you die the government will reinforce its claim you
should not have weapons because you died from an unequal match.
Should you survive and produce an illegal weapon as your means of
saving your life, at the minimum it will be taken from you so you
can never save your life again.  At the maximum that will happen
and you will go go jail for ten years for saving your own life.
That is our government in action.
     Lets go to the hardest question of all.  Can the government
demand you die to uphold its failure to get criminals off of the
streets?  Yes is the most common reaction in this country.
     The police can not protect you.  You are not permitted to
have the most effective means of protecting yourself.  The
government can not stop violent crime.  Therefore, you die.
Clean, simple, and no longer a drain upon Social Security or the
health care system.  What a neat solution to many outstanding
problems.
     And if you defend yourself, go to jail, go directly to jail,
do not pass go, do not collect $200.
     Only in America.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

     1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547


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+++■■■■■ r_940630 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1326)
To:      All                                    27 Jun 94 18:44:10
Subject: Curiouser and curiouser                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     ABC Evening News, 6/27

     Over 1000 thousand Haitian refugees were picked up today 
alone in addition to hundreds more over the weekend.  They will 
be taken to a ship in Jamaica for processing.  

     =====

     Lets see, we have a ship full a marines and a hospital ship 
near Haiti and an extra hundred medical people sent to Guantanamo 
to take care of them and for some reason they are sent to 
Jamaica.  

     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1327)
To:      John Clifton                           27 Jun 94 16:22:10
Subject: Hillary the BAM                        

JC> MG> She was uglier than dog shit back then.  Amazing there has
JC> MG> been little improvement.

JC>      You figure she should have spontaneously turned into a
JC> looker, do ya?  (Better go light on that stuff, Mac.)

     Why go light?  Remember the early stories of her spending 
just to look vaguely acceptable?  

JC> > (AND, she had to learn to wear contacts.)

JC>      She's not too bright, you say? :-)

     Is very, very difficult.  

JC> >     They are called extended wear.  They came out in 1978.
JC> > What was your learning curve?  Did you have trouble remembering
JC> > where to put them?

JC>      My wife started wearing hard contacts in 1963 and they did
JC> have a "learning curve" of a few weeks.

     They were not extended wear.  In 1963 they would have been 
hard lens.  Soft ones came out in the late 60s. 


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1328)
To:      Grant Karpik                           27 Jun 94 16:29:10
Subject: Lawyer Matt fired?                     

GK> GK>  They were married a couple of years ago.  The original
GK> GK>  attempt to 'cut a deal' was to get her husband a job in
GK> GK>  Hollywood.

GK> MG>      A couple of years ago was 18 months ago when the story
GK> MG> broke  which is likely the first broke.  Most likely the
GK> MG> first time he  heard of it.  An fine way to find out your
GK> MG> wife layed the
GK> MG> president.

GK>  They were married in 1991.  The story was published in the 
GK>  American Spectator in Jan.  of 1994.  

     I will have to check but I think Brock's article ran in the 
November 93 issue, however that does give them an 18 month 
marriage more or less.  

She did not here of the 
GK>  story until she went back to Arkansas sometime later that 
GK>  month (she and her husband had moved to Claifornia sometime 
GK>  earlier) for a visit and was told about the story by her 
GK>  friend and former co-worker Debra Ballentine.  Ballentine 
GK>  was also the person that arranged for Jones to meet Daniel 
GK>  Taylor, the small-time lawyer who tried to 'cut a deal' 
GK>  with Clinton, through George Cook, to get Jones' husband a 
GK>  job in Hollywood.

     It sounds like a clean offer to me.  The cover story is 
simply the Billie Jeff magnanimously wanted to repair any harm 
that might have come to her because he is now a falsely accused 
target of media attention.  Another example of how he takes care 
of his friends, loyalty and all that.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1329)
To:      Linda Terrell                          27 Jun 94 16:27:10
Subject: Lawyer Matt fired?                     

LT> MG>  Telling her the governor said "you make my knees knock" is
LT> MG> sufficient to make it a crime.

LT>     Telling someone that someone said something is called 
LT>   hearsay.  Did Clinton reallys say that or did Ferguson say 
LT>   he said that? That's why it must go to Court.
LT> 
LT>       And what's wrong with telling someone "you make my 
LT>  knees knock"?

     The fact of conveying the information for arrange the liaison 
is converting the trooper to personal use.  That is the crime and 
it is by Clinton.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1330)
To:      Grant Karpik                           27 Jun 94 16:45:10
Subject: OLLIE NORTH FOR SENAT                  

GK> MG>       When was he convicted?  There has never been a 
GK> MG>  conviction  for treason in this country.

GK>  The Rosenbergs: found guilty of treason in 1951 and 
GK>  executed in 1953....

     Espionage not treason.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1331)
To:      Jeff Welch                             27 Jun 94 16:47:10
Subject: OLLIE NORTH FOR SENAT                  

JW> MG>JW>   It was John Brown who was tried, convicted, and executed 
JW> MG>JW>   for treason.

JW> MG>     Sedition.

JW> Treason.

     Have it your way.  

JW> MG>      No document.  You are asserting enemy has some meaning 
JW> MG> just what you want it to mean.  In this case you are 
JW> MG> asserting Iran was an enemy because of a the statements of 
JW> MG> the Ayatollah.

JW>  Iran certainly considered the U.S.  it's enemy.  They sure 
JW>  as hell kidnapped enough of our people.

     What Iran may or may not have considered itself has nothing 
to do with what the US considered it.  As for kidnapping, no.  
They may have financially supported some groups who used that as 
part of their tactics but no more than that.

JW> MG>JW> Actually, I never mentioned the term "perjury".  All I said was
JW> MG>JW> that North is an admitted liar, which is undisputed.

JW> MG>     What what the term you used before you learned he was not
JW> MG>under oath?

JW> "Liar".

     Synonymous with congressman.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1332)
To:      Grant Karpik                           27 Jun 94 16:54:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

GK> MG>      It is a four way race and he has three times the money
GK> MG> of  his nearest competitor.

GK>  The, so-called, religious right, who are his main backers 
GK>  are getting real good at getting their candidates 
GK>  nominated.  Problem is, they tend to be non-electable.  The 
GK>  guy has too much baggage and too many 'important' folks 
GK>  against him (i.e.  the 'sainted' Colin Powell).

     I am unaware of any particular religious right support but 
that could hardly be a problem in Virginia.  The present governor 
was accused of having it.  He won easily.


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