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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_debate_9405


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1273)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 17:29:10
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
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 **********  Original From: BEN DELISLE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/07/94 - 0003096
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0754 - Privacy-U
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seattle.general,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.libertarian,pnw.general,talk.politics.drugs,misc.ta
From: delisle@eskimo.com (Ben Delisle)
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution Reiteration. A Bill in WA State.
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 06:49:12 GMT

    This bill will be proposed in the Washington State Senate
at the beginning of the next session. A similar bill will go in to the 
State House. I received this copy of this bill from State Senator
Linda Smith of the 18th Legislative District. This is an Important
bill, consider something similar in your State, If all the States
passed this bill it would send a message to the federal government. 
    Begin>
                           --- *** ---
This measure would declare the state's sovereignty under the 10th
Amendment to the United States Constitution and demand that the 
federal government cease and desist mandates that are beyond the 
scope of constitutionally delegated powers.

    WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States reads as follow: 
    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people", and

    WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
power as being that specifically granted by the Unites States 
Constitution and no more; and

    WHEREAS, The scope and power defined by the 10th Amendment 
means that the federal government was created by the States 
specifically to be an agent of the States; and
    
    WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the States are demonstrably treated
as agents of the federal government; and

    WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
federal government by the Washington Legislature without any
response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

    WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of
the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

     WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York
vs. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not 
simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory process of the 
States; and

    WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations 
and some now pending from the present administration and from
Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now,
therefore, be it

    ____Resolved_by_the_Senate_and_House_of_Representatives_of_
Washington,_jointly,___ that the State of Washington hereby claims
sovereignty under that 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the 
United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted
to the federal government by the United States Constitution and 
that this measure shall serve as notice and demand to the federal
government,  as  our  agent,  to  cease  and  desist,  effective
immediately,  mandates  that  are  beyond  the  scope  of  its 
constitutionally delegated powers; and be it further

    ___Resolved,___ That the Secretary of the Senate transmit copies
of this resolution to the President and Vice President of the United
States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President
pro Tempore of the  United  States  Senate, each  Senator and 
Representative from Washington in the Congress of the Unites States
and to the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of each
legislature in the United States of America.

                         ---   ***   ---

--
delisle@eskimo.com


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1274)
To:      Jack Wilder                            20 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: : SMOKING                              

On 05/17/94 JACK WILDER to MICHAEL PILON on : SMOKING

JW>  -=> Quoting Michael Pilon to Bill Bauer <=-

JW>  MP>  Statute of limitation on suppressed data, sound fine to me.  
JW>  MP>  Hmmm you mean  swamp gas doesn't cause warts.  ;-)

JW>         Don't you guys know that it is TOADS that cause warts.

JW>          I can't believe it, and it toadily amazes me that 
JW>    you guys don't know that thirty years ago toads caused 
JW>    warts, and you got rid of them by letting a used dishrag 
JW>    sour in the dark for three days, and then you take it 
JW>    out, and cut three of the warts, and rub them with the 
JW>    rag three times, and then you bury the dishrag.  You guys 
JW>    really didn't know this??

     They're Canadians.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1285)
To:      Mike Perry                             12 May 94 18:08:10
Subject: An American Resolution                 

MP>  MG>       Clinton said it was a liberal media and that he was 
MP>  MG>  not getting fair coverage from it.  Do you disagree with 
MP>  MG>  him?  Of you did not hear him say that, I am sure.  
MP>  MG>  Published in a Rolling Stone interview with him if I 
MP>  MG>  remember right.

MP>  There's no doubt that Rolling Stone is liberal, but then 
MP>  again, RS is the exception, and I'm primarily talking about 
MP>  newspaper and tv, which are definitely more conservative.  
MP>  It figures that while the rest of us use examples such as 
MP>  network media, rush limbaugh and the Washington Post to 
MP>  prove our point, you pull out a rock-and-roll entertainment 
MP>  rag as proof of the "liberal media".  Too bad RS only has a 
MP>  fraction of a fraction of the circulation of our 
MP>  conservative examples.

     _I_ pulled out proof?  I cited Billie Jeff's statement in a 
Rolling Stone interview.  Are you saying Billie Jeff is wrong?

MP>  MG> Clinton
MP> MP>>  is still managing to perservere.  Maybe, just maybe, there
MP> MP>>  are people out there who don't have such unresolved,
MP> MP>>  unjustified political bitterness clouding their judgement
MP> MP>>  of what this country needs.
MP> MP>>
MP> MP>>  There's no major lobbyist group for Heath Care Reform -
MP> MP>>  just people.

MP>  MG>       The "people" are carefully selected for the media or 
MP>  MG>  at least they were until Limbaugh called Clinton on it and 
MP>  MG>  he ordered it stopped.

MP> propoganda; no proof.

     Here is the report of stopping the process.  But we know 
from one participant that it was still standard operating 
procedure as recently as last week.

=====

Washington Times, 9 April 1994

Clinton gets tougher questions after charges of audience fixing

By Frank J. Murray

     Minneapolis -- Angry White House officials asked a 
television station last night not to take questions for President 
Clinton from people placed in a "town meeting" audience at 
administration request.

     "They can keep them in the audience but, out of an abundance 
of caution, I've asked them not to have them ask questions so we 
don't have these accusations all over again," Deputy 
Communications Director Jeff Eller told reporters.

...

     Mr. Eller expressed exasperation and embarrassment at 
reports yesterday about his Thursday night disclosures that 
dozens of television stations had included questioners in such 
audiences on the basis of letters written to first lady Hillary 
Rodham Clinton.     

=====

MP>  MG> There's no major lobbyist group for banning
MP> MP>>  UZIs - just people.

MP>  MG>       You have never heard of Handgun Control Incorporated?  
MP>  MG>  Or do you think no one else has and that nonsense will 
MP>  MG>  stand?

MP>  I said "major".  There is nothing in the league as the NRA.  
MP>  I've never even heard of "Handgun Control Inc."  Its 
MP>  membership is probably as large as the local rotary 
MP>  club's.

     It claims six million members, double that of the NRA.  
Where have you been?

MP>  MG> I guess his job now
MP> MP>>  is to simply support all the BS conservative policies that
MP> MP>>  have screwed this country for the last two decades.

MP>  MG>       His job is to execute the laws of the land.  You will 
MP>  MG>  find that in the Constitution.  You might read it some day 
MP>  MG>  and realize he has ONLY the powers as president that are 
MP>  MG>  enumerated there.

MP>  Every single president who ever held office was directly 
MP>  responsible for pushing some sort of legislation through 
MP>  the government.  I'm under the impression that the 
MP>  President is intregal both directly and indirectly in 
MP>  passing laws.  Now all of a sudden you're saying that's not 
MP>  one of his responsibilities.

     Your impression is only of what a president does.  That has 
nothing to do with the office to which he is elected.  I have 
cited the constitution as my source.  If YOU can find something 
in the Constitution giving him such an obligation I will be most 
happy to read it.  

MP> MP>>  First and foremost he has been mandated by the people to
MP> MP>>  lead this country

MP>  MG>      He was the least unpopular in a three way race.

MP>  More word twisting.  You can say it however you want, but a 
MP>  fact is a fact, no matter how you try to distort reality.  
MP>  Clinton would still win in an election today.  There are 
MP>  more people who support him than don't, unfortunately the 
MP>  people that don't support him have huge mouths and closed 
MP>  minds (IMO) so they seem more substantial than they are in 
MP>  reality.

     No word twisting at all.  If you are interested in doing a 
little reading on the subject there was a three way race in 1972 
with Wallace as the third party candidate.  In 1973 Scientific 
American carried an article on the difference in results between 
a two way and a three way selection process.  My phrasing is 
correct.  

     As for Clinton winning today a recent poll has him losing 
against an unnamed Republican in '96.  



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1288)
To:      All                                    16 May 94 20:44:10
Subject: Another SC decision                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
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                       Snuck One Passed You
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/16>

     Little noticed by the mainstream news there was a landmark
Supreme Court decision on 16 May 1994.  The decision held that a
person who has committed a federal felony can not possess a gun
even though the state of their residency has restored their civil
rights.  Sounds reasonable does it not?  Certainly it was done in
a good cause.
     What does that mean really?  For over two centuries the only
thrust of the Federal Government has been to open the civil
rights granted by the states to more and more people.  Thus there
was the vote for Black men and later for all women.  There have
been laws prohibiting discrimination (laws are required now for
would have required an amendment earlier you note.)
     Now the Supreme Court has decided the Federal Government can
deny the rights granted within the states.  Of course the
connection with a federal crime, therefore a felony, and guns
will make it highly unlikely any Congressman will involve himself
in objecting is vanishingly small.  And the precedent will be set
that the Federal Government is the supreme arbiter of citizens
rights within the states.
     Of course it won't go downhill overnight.  At the present
rate it will take two or three more years before something more
serious occurs.  There is no question that states no longer have
a say in civil rights.
     At this point I will note the Federal Constitution does not
grant or guarantee to power to vote.  I will point out it only
says, IF there is a right to vote then it can not be restricted
on certain grounds, race, sex, that sort of thing.  The Federal
government now has the right to restrict any state granted right
such as voting on any pretext it wishes.
     It happened.  They got away with another one.  What next?



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1292)
To:      Chris Baugh                            13 May 94 18:53:10
Subject: BORN IN CANADA                         

CB>  MG>       You should look into wholesale prices some day.  You 
CB>  MG>  will find the cost is in the distribution.  Audio cassettes 
CB>  MG>  made have a production cost on the order of five cents US 
CB>  MG>  regardless of "grade" or "quality."

CB>  I've seen prices around $ 1.35 per unit for duplication, 
CB>  from a DAT master with proper tones and absolute-time 
CB>  reference sheet for track lengths, with Dolby B noise 
CB>  reduction and HX Pro headroom extension (both trademarks of 
CB>  Dolby Labs, San Fransisco CA) with a clear shell, on 
CB>  cassette imprint on both sides, chrome tape cut to custom 
CB>  length up to C-60, 4-color 4-panel J-card with imprinting 
CB>  on back, packaged in clear Norelco box with shrink wrap, 
CB>  FOB the plant, quantity 1,000.  If you know of a way to cut 
CB>  the price to $0.05 per unit as described, I'd be delighted 
CB>  to pay you a reasonable finder's fee, or you could simply 
CB>  advertise in any of a dozen audio industry publications and 
CB>  quickly become a millionaire while still dramatically 
CB>  undercutting the rest of the industry.
CB> 
CB>  You also omitted, for clarity I assume, the question of the 
CB>  production cost of the master tape and film sent to the 
CB>  duplication plant.  Talented performers, quality equipment 
CB>  and competent technicians seldom offer their services for 
CB>  free.

     If I sold them for five cents I would lose quite a bit of 
money.

     I was said production cost of the cassette.  I intended that 
to mean blank tape.  Now if they are providing everything you 
state for $1.35 do you think that is worth $1.30 markup?  
Thinking about it, that information is quite old.  It might be up 
to ten cents now.

     My source was an Amway pharaoh who was duplicating 
motivational tapes for resale to other pharaohs (the only way to 
make money in Amway.)  He tracked back a source of cassettes to a 
primary supplier in Mexico through some friend who gave him the 
name of a buyer of their bulk tape.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1293)
To:      Michael Pilon                          13 May 94 19:04:10
Subject: BORN IN CANADA                         

MP>  MG> It appears you would not impeach killer Moosehead.

MP>  Gad if you guys knew a bit mroe abotu Canada you would have 
MP>  a field day with some opf our ridiculous laws.  

     Which of course is why we work so hard to know so little.  
If we knew more you would accuse us of being malicious.

For one it 
MP>  was not legal to sell beer outside the Province in which it 
MP>  was made.  So Moosehead which is made in NEw Brunswick and 
MP>  exported all over the WOrld is almost unknown elsewhere in 
MP>  Canada.  Until recently that is.  Silly eh ? So even though I 
MP>  had heard of Moosehead from as far away as Australia I had 
MP>  never tired it, had my first one in Hawaii beleive it or 
MP>  not.

     Anything is better than Primo.

MP>  One thing about NAFTA is that is it opening up 
MP>  interprovincial trade...  and you guys are worried about the 
MP>  Mexicans..if you only knew ;-)

     You guys should have signed a Canadian Free Trade Act years 
ago or wouldn't the sovereign approve?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1294)
To:      Michael Pilon                          13 May 94 19:07:10
Subject: BORN IN CANADA                         

MP>  MG>  You should look into wholesale prices some day.  You will  
MP>  MG>  find the cost is in the distribution.  Audio cassettes made 
MP>  MG>  have  a production cost on the order of five cents US 
MP>  MG>  regardless of  "grade" or "quality."
MP>  MG> 
MP>  MG>  Right now we are at the predicted point on many items.  The  
MP>  MG>  only bottleneck we have not broken is the cost of 
MP>  MG>  distribution.

MP>  Yes I have read a bit on this.  It really is interesting.  I 
MP>  buy a lot of my cosmetic and polymer plastic dental 
MP>  supplies from a company called DenMat in Santa Maria 
MP>  California.  It is a licence to print money, two small 10 ml 
MP>  bottles of a polymer binding solution is $180 Canadian.  I 
MP>  would be hard pressed to give it a value of any thing more 
MP>  than a few dollars.  But the advertsing, sales people ( They 
MP>  are on an 800 line) packaging etc....  All add up but they 
MP>  still do well.  But their products are very good so the cost 
MP>  is worth it to me.  They also have great follow up and give 
MP>  good courses.  In fact I went out there in Dec and really 
MP>  enjoyed their small town of 60,000.  They even got me a bike 
MP>  to ride about on.  Now that is service ;-)

     So you are getting a lot more for you money than the 
chemical.  The quality control on the stuff has to be very good 
and even if it were perfect they would still have to carry 
liability insurance.  You never know when the stuff will be found 
to cause ingrown toenails.  

     Given the essentials needed to use the product I presume you 
agree the product would not be worth selling at cost.

     (Is this the stuff that cures with UV?)

     BTW:  Don't forget the thank your patients for underwriting 
your bike usage.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1295)
To:      All                                    15 May 94 04:26:10
Subject: Caning                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0099 - Law & Disor-F
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     SNL, 5/14, Its News To Me

     [paraphrased]

     Experts have said that pictures of Michael Fay's buttocks 
could be worth up to $500,000.  They say he is sitting on a gold 
mine.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1298)
To:      Bill Bauer                             11 May 94 23:16:10
Subject: Cinco de what?                         

BB>  MG> I have a question.  Just what in the hell is Cinco de Maio?
BB>  MG>
BB>  MG> I know it is the 5th of May and that it is the equivalent of
BB>  MG> the 4th of July in Mexico.  But in the Malvines war the Brits
BB>  MG> sank the Argentine Cruiser Cinco de Maio.  Is there any reason
BB>  MG> this is some sort of Latin American holiday in addition to the
BB>  MG> Mexico?  Was Mexico the first and they all celebrate it?

BB>  Matt, I have taken the liberty to cross post your message 
BB>  to our friends in MEXICAN_LINK.  It will go from Metrocop to 
BB>  Family Tree and then on to Coyote SES in Tijuana, Mexico 
BB>  where I am sure that one or another of my acquaintances on 
BB>  that system will answer by return mail which should come in 
BB>  on Saturday nite during regular polling session with them.  
BB>  As soon as it returns with an answer, I will crosspost it 
BB>  back up here in Debate for you to see.

     Much appreciated.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1299)
To:      Chris Baugh                            13 May 94 19:14:10
Subject: Cinco de what?                         

CB>  On May 5 a few years ago, Mexico became independent of 
CB>  Spain.  The date is still celebrated in Mexico.  Ole!

     That I am aware of and posted in the question.  My problem 
is that I had no problem with knowing the significance of the 
date until the Falklands war when I found there was an Argentine 
cruiser named Cinco de Maio.  To me that indicates a larger 
significance to the date.  Is it that Mexico was the first and 
the rest of Latin America has some significance to the date?

     That is what I am asking.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1300)
To:      Alan Macphail                          13 May 94 19:17:10
Subject: Cinco de what?                         

AM>  MG> sank the Argentine Cruiser Cinco de Maio.  Is there any reason
AM>  MG> this is some sort of Latin American holiday in addition to the

AM>   I believe the name of the cruiser was the General Belgrano 
AM>   (sp), the Cinco de Maio was/is the Argentine carrier that 
AM>   hightailed it after its aircraft expended their only 
AM>   available air-launch Execets.  

     You are correct.  Thank you

With British hunter-killer 
AM>   subs cruising around in the mood to shoot, it was probably 
AM>   a wise move.  Al.

     It was a very wise move.  We don't (didn't) ever send our 
carriers out alone.  The main purpose of the ships and subs with 
it is to stop subs from sinking it.  The Brits have better sonar 
than the Soviets.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1301)
To:      Bill Bauer                             13 May 94 19:21:10
Subject: Cinco de what?                         

BB>  MG> I have a question.  Just what in the hell is Cinco de Maio?
BB>  MG> I know it is the 5th of May and that it is the equivalent of
BB>  MG> the 4th of July in Mexico.
BB>  ...
BB>  Wrong.

BB>   Cinco de Mayo is not the equivalent to the 4th of July.  
BB>   For you, as US citizens, the 4th of July refers to 
BB>   Independence day.  To us, as mexicans, Cinco de Mayo 
BB>   remembers a battle between the mexican and french armies 
BB>   (May 5, 1862) in Puebla, Mexico.  It was a much needed 
BB>   victory after so many unfortunate wars against invading 
BB>   armies, among them those from the USA.  Our Independence 
BB>   Day is September the 16th.

BB>  Hasta luego.

BB>  Rogelio Amaral

BB>   ! Origin: COYOTE SES Tijuana, Mexico.  (011-52-66) 86-5385 
BB>  (4:971/8) Matt, here is your information, right out of the 
BB>  horses mouth, so to speak.  Hope this helps you understand 
BB>  what you wanted to know about Cinco de Mayo.

     Much appreciated.  In fact he offered to send the conference 
itself free.  I passed the offer to the sysop.  I may be able to 
be corrected more directly soon.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1302)
To:      Elaine Gallegos                        18 May 94 18:34:10
Subject: Civil Rights                           

EG>    To get onto Cuba, exactly What is it that you have 
EG>   against Cuba?  I have a lot of sympathy toward the Cubans.  
EG>   They got cut off from the wealth of Both superpowers.  
EG>   Nonetheless, they rallied, pulled together, and managed to 
EG>   survive with their dignity intact.  Compare Cuba with 
EG>   Haiti.
EG> 
EG>    Yeah, Cuba has some major problems.  Naturally, island 
EG>  nations would have to keep very strick control of their 
EG>  populations!  Cuba is Trying to feed everyone.  It's a 
EG>  difficult life, but they are organized, and understand the 
EG>  spirit of co-operation.  The government doesn't seem to 
EG>  have totally alienated the people.  They are the only 
EG>  nation to have humanely halted the spread of AIDS.

     If they were really interested in feeding everyone they 
would throw out communism.  It works every time.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1303)
To:      Mike Perry                             15 May 94 22:09:10
Subject: Clinton crap                           

MP>  MG>       You must be reading the White House partisan handouts, 
MP>  MG>  which is impeachable in itself to use public funds for 
MP>  MG>  partisan promotion.  But you forgot his admitted subversion 
MP>  MG>  of the 4th amendment.  Couple that with the Feinstein bill 
MP>  MG>  and you can see his agenda.  Totalitarians always have the 
MP>  MG>  same agenda.

MP>  I know.  Your definition of "partisian" is anything that 
MP>  you disagree with that seems to be somewhat organized and 
MP>  not in your favor.  *YAWN*
MP> 
MP>  As far as constitutional subversions, this is more 
MP>  propoganda; it's all subjective, 

     He ordered Reno and Cisneros to find a away around the 4th 
amendment.  In what way is that subjective?  

MP>  MG>       Actually you sound a bit in love with him.  But do not 
MP>  MG>  worry about the opposition to him.  The truth will continue 
MP>  MG>  to come out.  I find it amusing to note today Clinton can 
MP>  MG>  be called a liar (using the word, liar) on any of the 
MP>  MG>  talking head shows and no one denies it.

MP>  I'm not in love with him by any means.  There are things he 
MP>  does which I do not necessarily approve, but at least I 
MP>  acknowledge his motivation is not based on self-interests 
MP>  (which history has demonstrated to be a principal coveted 
MP>  by conservatives & republicans).  

     Would please demonstrate what leads you to your knowledge of 
his motivation?  

You're right.  The truth 
MP>  will come out, unfortunately for you, I don't think you're 
MP>  going to be happy with it.

     Since you know it already you can tell me.

MP> MP>>  MG>       I have a deal with Limbaugh.  I do not speak for
MP> MP>>  MG> him  and he does not speak for me.  Please take your
MP> MP>>  MG> fantasies  as to my sources to the HOLYSMOKE
MP> MP>>  MG> conference.

MP> MP>>  I never said you speak FOR him, you speak LIKE him.

MP>  MG>       You must listen to him regularly to know that.  Or are 
MP>  MG>  you one of those who claims to know what he is like without 
MP>  MG>  listening?  I presume the latter.

MP>  I listen to him when I'm curious to find out what the 
MP>  current agenda for narrow-minded people is.  I find him 
MP>  quite entertaining, but I worry about other less 
MP>  mentally-developed people who cannot separate his rhetoric 
MP>  from the reality which he distorts.

     In other words you do not listen to him enough to have made 
the comparison.  You spoke from ignorance in an attempt to make a 
point.  You failed miserably.

MP> MP>>  You have the same technique as he does - hideous commentary
MP> MP>>  without substance.  Inaccurate slanderous accusations based
MP> MP>>  on flimsy, surgically-excised soundbytes.

MP>  MG>       This medium requires it.  I note you do not respond 
MP>  MG>  with any clarification.

MP>  Ask and ye shall receive.  I have no problems with backing 
MP>  up my position.  I don't have a habit of making grandiose 
MP>  subjective condemnations inasmuch as they are observations 
MP>  on the behavior of the so-called conservative movement, 
MP>  which to me has little to do with making this country 
MP>  better and everything to do with winning a stupid political 
MP>  game.  That's the difference between you and I.  I'm 
MP>  interested in helping this country get back on its feet - 
MP>  and I don't really care who does it as long as it gets 
MP>  done.  I think you on the other hand, honestly (and 
MP>  foolishly) believe that one particular political group is 
MP>  going to save the world.  My eyes are open wide enough to 
MP>  know that Clinton is really trying, and he is open-minded.  
MP>  As a result, I'm not going to stand idly by and let people 
MP>  like you trash his character for the purpose of 
MP>  counterproductive partisian politics.  If you get away with 
MP>  this, then we'll never know if we have a good leader or not 
MP>  - the level of available propoganda should not be a 
MP>  standard for determining who leads this country.

     To repeat

MP>  MG>       This medium requires it.  I note you do not respond 
MP>  MG>  with any clarification.
     
=====

MP> MP>>  PS - Your method of rationalizing would get you eaten alive
MP> MP>>  on HOLYSMOKE if applied to on-topic concepts there.

MP>  MG>      You have a lot to learn.

MP>  At least we agree on something.  You're right.  I do have a 
MP>  lot to learn.  That's probably the difference between us.  
MP>  I'm willing to learn, and you simply know everything 
MP>  already.

     I have been at it longer and I am smarter than you.  What 
would you expect from such an encounter?

MP>  I wonder which of us has more wisdom?  The open-minded 
MP>  person, or the closed-minded guy who knows everything?

     I see no merit in those who propose that having one set of 
fixed positions and opinions is by definition open mined.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1312)
To:      Kate Secrest                           18 May 94 18:44:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

KS>   >  In the Paula Jones case, suit was filed just a few days 
KS>   >  short of the expiration of a three-year statute of 
KS>   >  limitations.  Well within the law and the bounds of normal 
KS>   >  legal process.  I only hope the trooper testifies 
KS>   >  truthfully and the entire world sees proof that 43% of the 
KS>   >  voters in Nov.  '92 were deceived by a flasher!

KS>  Are you trying to say that her having been "flashed" by our 
KS>  current president was concealed from her for almost three 
KS>  years?  That's a little beyond incredible.

     I think you can read better than that.

KS>   > * QMPro 1.52 * Does an innocent man hire a TOP criminal lawyer?

KS> He sure does if he can afford it!!!

     He is going to need it.  Using the state troopers in this 
matter is both a federal and a state crime.  The boy is going to 
jail if he can't beat this one.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1313)
To:      Linda Terrell                          18 May 94 18:48:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT>    Yes, indeed, this woman who said she was shaken, scared, 
LT>  outraged, stood still long enough to stare at Clinton's 
LT>  wang so's she could pick it out of a line up years later.

     She did say that was something unique about it.  Perhaps it 
is tattooed or maybe he has tree balls.  It does take balls to 
even try what he did.  Too bad George Carlin has sanitized his 
act.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1314)
To:      Linda Terrell                          18 May 94 18:50:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT>     Well, since she appeared at a News Conference last week 
LT>  with people from the religious right, and Operation 
LT>  Oppressyou  and just right wingers, it doesn't sound like 
LT>  it's Dem funded.  Though, the Dems could be funding a big 
LT>  act to make the Right look bad.  .  .

     The reason she used them was that the mainstream media was 
refusing to cover her story.  A reporter for the Washington Post 
was suspended for arguing over his stories being spiked.  (I 
posted the Washington Times report of it here.)  The Clinton 
supporters would give her coverage.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1315)
To:      Jack Butler                            18 May 94 18:56:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

JB>  Honey, it's that Grant Karpik again!

JB>  GK> And especially since his story doesn't match her story....

JB>       Funny how *none* of the so-called witnesses can get 
JB>  the same story to come out of their collective mouths.  So 
JB>  much for "proof".

     As there has not been testimony as yet I suggest it is a bit 
early to make that claim.  We do know that under oath Anita Hill 
and her "witness" could not agree either.  Perhaps the same thing 
will happen.  Until then we are talking about what makes it 
through the press which, for the most part, spiked any coverage 
of her story.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1316)
To:      Jack Butler                            18 May 94 19:03:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

JB>       Hell, when people in the Clinton administration do 
JB>  this, you guys are the first to point out the fact.  
JB>  Convenient that you never mention it now that the target is 
JB>  getting legal help from the RNP.

     Do you have a source for this?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1317)
To:      Linda Terrell                          18 May 94 19:11:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT> WM>   There ARE however, very strong reasons to believe that the 
LT> WM>  woman is telling the truth.

LT>     And there are just as strong reasons to belive that she 
LT>  wants to make as much $$ out of this as possible.

     Since you are one of the more rabid feminists around can you 
explain why this does appear, after the reaction to Anita Hill, 
to be a purely partisan reaction.  NOW won't support her because 
Clinton is a liberal.  You appear to have made the same decision.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1320)
To:      Linda Terrell                          19 May 94 15:26:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT> MG>  You appear to have made the same decisio

LT>     And you appear to have decided what my decision is.  I 
LT>  am looking at both sides and from one side I see a 
LT>  righteously outraged woman who seems to have waited until 
LT>  the best possible time to make the most money off her 
LT>  experience.

     The article in which her friends could identify her came out 
in November.  The Christmas season followed and I would presume a 
story indicating she was a one-night-stand was not quite the best 
present her husband and family could have been given.  

     She started trying to get some press coverage to tell her 
story, to clear her name.  The press would not give her coverage.  

     If you will accept she started some time in January, first 
getting an attorney, making depositions then we know in March the 
Wash Post reporter was suspended for the argument over his 
stories being spiked.  They were plural stories and they were 
about Paula Jones.  

     She got on the god channel and had a hearing at some 
Republican PAC.  Early May the suit is filed.  

     What do you make of that timing other than it is about as 
fast as it could have proceeded since the suit was not the first 
intention.   


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1322)
To:      Linda Terrell                          20 May 94 13:42:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal                        

LT> MG>      She got on the god channel and had a hearing at some
LT> MG> Republican PAC.  Early May the suit is filed.

LT>     Then give her her days in Court.  That is how it's 
LT>  supposed to work.

     Clinton is trying to deny her that day in court because he 
is now president.  If he can deny it to her then it is back to 
the media with the claim Clinton is afraid of going to court 
because he will lose.  Of course the trooper has no such defense.

LT>     But don't tell me to acept the sudden conversion of the 
LT>  Conservative right to Jones' cause *just* because she was 
LT>  sexually harassed/threatened.  The Conservative right did 
LT>  everything in its power to discredit Anita Hill; impeded 
LT>  legislation on sexual harassment and now is suddenly so 
LT>  ready to defend this poor, malighed woman.

     I made no such claim.  I gave a short recounting of what 
happened and pointed that was the ONLY place she could get help 
because the liberal press was censoring the story.  

     At the moment I see no particular support for her and I 
would ask you to tell me what you have heard.

     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1324)
To:      Phil Barnett                           18 May 94 19:20:10
Subject: Clipper: Congress Hearin               

PB>  The problem is that they would outlaw any encryption 
PB>  technique they could not break.
PB> 
PB>  I have a dandy one I use at work that will die a quick 
PB>  death if the Clipper chip is made law.
PB> 
PB>  I came up with it when I was writing communications 
PB>  software to interface with the IRS, and they couldn't break 
PB>  it.  Since then, I have refined it.  It doesn't require any 
PB>  fancy encryption scheme, either.

     I also have an encryption method that I believe to be 
untouchable by brute force.  I have been trying to sell it.  

     However, I have also stated that if other methods are 
outlawed I will give full disclosure all over the networks. 

     Will you join me in that notification to the government?

     They will make selling a product illegal but they can not 
make it illegal to explain a concept and discuss implementation 
which is all I intend to do.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1325)
To:      Chris Baugh                            11 May 94 23:22:10
Subject: close those Windows!                   

CB>  MG>  And since it keeps things like the print manager on line it 
CB>  MG>  is constantly wasting time polling it while it does 
CB>  MG>  nothing.

CB>  Print Manager should not be in your load= or run= sections 
CB>  of win.ini nor in your Startup group.  If an application 
CB>  puts Print Manager to the front when it start printing, 
CB>  minimize PM and switch back to your application.  PM should 
CB>  disappear when all print jobs are done and not take ANY 
CB>  memory nor time away from other tasks when you aren't 
CB>  printing.

     I can only tell you what I have observed.  I can get into 
reading something doing nothing on the machine and suddenly the 
disk is active.  Other times the same process will show noticably 
different response times.  It is doing something on its own that 
has nothing to do with me.

CB>  MG>       "Captain Piccard.  We have disassembled the ship's 
CB>  MG>  computer down to the Windows level.  No one on board is 
CB>  MG>  qualified to go any further."

CB>  Microsoft must have designed the operating system for the 
CB>  Enterprise.  Why else would we so often see that "the 
CB>  controls are not responding, sir"?

     Precisely.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1326)
To:      All                                    18 May 94 01:14:10
Subject: Conflict of interest                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0019 - Law-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                    United States Constitution

Article I
 
Sect. 6. The senators and representatives shall receive a 
compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and 
paid out of the treasury of the United States.  They shall in all 
cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be 
privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of 
their respective houses, and in going to and returning from the 
same; and for any speech or debate in either house, they shall 
not be questioned in any other place.

No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he 
                             !!!!!
     
was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority 
             !!

of the United States, which shall have been created, or the 
emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; 
and no person holding any office under the United States, shall 
be a member of either house during his continuance in office.
 
=====

     It is a fine line between "shall be" and "already be" an 
officer of the court which is under the authority of the United 
States.  All attorneys are officers of the court and under their 
own jurisdiction.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1327)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 15:25:10
Subject: Conflict of interest?                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Has everyone noticed the same attorney who represents 
Clinton also represents Rostinkowski?  Robert Bennett is 
negotiating with Bill Clinton's staff to reduce the charges 
against Rostinkowski.  Am I the only person who sees a problem 
with this?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1329)
To:      All                                    13 May 94 03:51:10
Subject: correcting an ommission                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been remiss over the last year or so. 

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1333)
To:      All                                    18 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Florida Harrassment start              

                  Florida HRS Harassment Starts

     In the case of Naomi D. Giwer a person with no involvement 
in the case appeared at the door claiming to be involved.  The 
only person involved legally is female, one Patricia Johnson.  
This was a he.  His name was not obtained; he offered no 
identification.

     The person represented that he had found in the file of Ms. 
Giwer's aunt a notification that a car had to be removed from the 
property for not having a current tag.  This is not illegal 
within the City of Dunedin.  Both her and her aunt live at the 
house.  No notification was ever delivered to the house.  
     
     The representation was that the aunt, as the home owner, was 
responsible.  The party was unaware Ms. Giwer's mother is also an 
owner of the property.  When informed of this he suggested if he 
looked into the mother's file he would find a similar 
notification.  He was unable to account for the coincidence he 
was involved in.

     His attempt was to obtain agreement to be permitted to tow 
the vehicle.  He was given no such agreement.  He was informed 
that what ever was done would be solely because of his own 
decision and would be his responsibility.  

     Prior to leaving he consulted privately with the declared 
incompetant aunt.  I can only assume it was a fruitful 
consultation and that he needed the expert counsel.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1334)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 17:49:10
Subject: Foreign Mercenaries                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0754 - Privacy-U
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


     As many of us are against the idea of hiring Hong Kong 
police for use in the US there are many ways to make our disgust 
at the idea of mercenaries known.  Of course we can write our 
elected representatives -- we can also piss up a rope and 
consider that a necessary contribution to the continuation of our 
postal system.  

     The other thing to do is to get the word to Hong Kong 
directly and suggest they advise their police of the attitude of 
America in their regard.

     A proper venue is of course the British Embassy in 
Washington DC.  If you are one of those who believes we learned 
how to run an efficient postal system from the British a more 
direct approach is desirable.

     First, letters can be sent directly to Hong Kong.  I have 
not looked into the postage nor its form of government -- so that 
it gets to the right person (I don't think Chief of Police will 
cut it.)

     Second is the following.  This is the highest ranking Hong 
Kong government organization I can find in this country.

Mr. Ba-sang Yeung
Second Secretary
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
1150 18th Street NW
Suite 475
Washington DC 20036

1-202-331-8947

     I told the person I spoke what my interest was and she 
suggested this person as the one who is responsible for getting 
such letters to the right person -- implying she did not know the 
right person either -- but I trust her suggestion.  

     I am composing a letter that will request their police be 
advised individually that Americans take a very dim view of 
mercenaries and that the last time mercenaries were brought to 
our shores they were the most hated and shown the least mercy in 
combat.  (Lay on the gory descriptions here.  If anyone has any 
good ones please post them.)

     I will also include a reference that I am opposing the 
passage of the law in the first place by writing similar letters 
to Congress.

     As reference for any letter you might be interested in 
writing here is the citation of interest.

                 IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

                        A DECLARATION

                By the REPRESENTATIVES of the

                  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

                In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled

             He is at this time, transporting large Armies of 
foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of Death, Desolation, 
and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and 
Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the barbarous Ages, and totally 
unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1340)
To:      Grant Karpik                           13 May 94 16:20:10
Subject: Health Care "Rights"                   

GK> ME> MP>  In a  recent post I also showed that admissions per 1000
GK> ME> MP>  were higher here suggersting a better bang for the  buck.

GK> ME> Or

GK> ME> 1. Canadians abuse the health care system; or

GK> ME> 2. Canadians get sick more often.

GK> ME> Statistics are difficult to interpret.

GK> MG>       You know how cold it gets up there even though they 
GK> MG>  deny it  ever snows.  Obviously they get sick more often 
GK> MG>  from walking  through the non-snow barefoot.

GK>  It's ok, the Red Cross sends us care packages of shoes 
GK>  every so often....

     Finally.  An honest Canadian.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1341)
To:      Michael Pilon                          14 May 94 22:20:10
Subject: HEALTH CARE "RIGHTS"                   

MP>  MG>  You know how cold it gets up there even though they deny it  
MP>  MG>  ever snows.  Obviously they get sick more often from 
MP>  MG>  walking  through the non-snow barefoot.

MP>  Of course it snows, that's our provincial flower !.  Matt a 
MP>  bracing skate on the canal in a brisk -25c day would have 
MP>  you turning in your guns for Ottawa Lynx tickets ;-)

     I have better things to do in July.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1343)
To:      All                                    13 May 94 04:44:10
Subject: Hey now!                               

 *********** Original       To: STEVEN GLADIN
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SG>  Actually, George Noonan has demonstrated such irrational 
SG>  fears of people that he does not know, that George should 
SG>  be involuntarily evaluated psychiatrically to determine if 
SG>  his continued liberty poses a danger to society at large.  
SG>  In Florida, we could Baker Act him.

     Speaking of Florida's infamous Baker Act it is ten days from 
the following letter.

     To preface I am the first husband of Naomi and the widower 
of another woman.  We have on child together, that being our only 
serious connection.  There is NO exaggeration in anything that 
follows.  This letter was mailed on the date indicated.  There 
has been no response as of the date and time of this message.

                            4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor's Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

     The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer.  In doing
so the state has refused to release the "damning" document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal.  Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.
     As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence.  She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.
     There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people.  The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.
     I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level.  I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.
     My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud.  I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.
     I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.
     I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response.  This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance.  Your attention
to this matter is requested.

                        Respectfully





                        Matthias M. Giwer

     For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1344)
To:      All                                    17 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Homeless exaggeration aga              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

           $1.7 billion to address the homeless problem

     In 1987 Mitch Snyder declares there are 3 million homeless 
in the US.

     In 1990 the Census Bureau finds there are 100,000 homeless 
in the US.

     On 17 May 1994 HUD Secretary Cisneros declares there are 
600,000 homeless in the US.   

     It is a powerfully attractive political issue to have the 
largest number of homeless possible.  


 3000000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 2700000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 2400000  |----------------X-----------------------------------------
          |                X                                         
 2100000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 1800000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 1500000  |----------------X-----------------------------------------
          |                X                                         
 1200000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
  900000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
  600000  |----------------X---------------------------------------X-
          |                X                                       X 
  300000  |                X                                       X 
          |                X                                       X 
       0  |                X                   X                   X 
          |----------------------------------------------------------
                                                                       
                           S                   C                   C   
                           n                   e                   i   
                           i                   n                   s   
                           d                   s                   n   
                           e                   u                   e   
                           r                   s                   r   
                                                                   o   
                           1                   B                   s   
                           9                   u                       
                           8                   r                   1   
                           7                   e                   9           
                   
                                               a                   9
                                               u                   4


     The swings are enormous.  The only difference between 
Cisneros and Snider is the numbers were pulled out of different 
asses.   Of course the Cisneros' ass hasn't been burned yet.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1346)
To:      All                                    16 May 94 01:45:10
Subject: KGB, Florida                           

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0019 - Law-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     For what it is worth, not one word I have posted here is 
false or misleading.  I have cut it down to the relevant 
essentials.  Naomi Giwer is my first wife.  As of this date I 
have received no response to this second letter.  

     This is not provided as a request for advice or assistance 
but rather as an opportunity to make public the Gestapo-like 
proceedings in the State of Florida.  It is noted the same agency 
doing this, HRS, was also responsible for child they put in a 
foster home being found severely malnourished and covered with 
infected sores only two months ago.  

     I also have a letter from HRS implying they would make the 
finding public if there were any waves caused.  To paraphrase, it 
is in her best interests this be kept private.  That implies 
either she would making something harmful to her damaging or they 
would.  It was a lovely threat.  

                            4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor's Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

     The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer.  In doing
so the state has refused to release the "damning" document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal.  Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.

     As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence.  She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.

     There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people.  The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.

     I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level.  I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.

     My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud.  I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.

     I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.

     I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response.  This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance.  Your attention
to this matter is requested.

                        Respectfully





                        Matthias M. Giwer

     For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1347)
To:      All                                    12 May 94 05:33:10
Subject: Libertarian alert                      

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     If anyone is interested I have discovered majority of 
participants in Fido-Worldtalk are defending socialism.  If 
anyone is interested in dealing with this plague worldwide please 
join me there.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1354)
To:      Lester Garrett                         10 May 94 15:12:10
Subject: Moderator makes news                   

On 05/08/94 BOB HIRSCHFELD to AL THORLEY on Moderator makes news*****

BH> > What's that saying about 15 minutes of fame?
BH> > Looks like Bob just got his.  (Take that whichever way you like.) 
BH> > * Origin: Moderator - Consumer Advocate & Civil War (1:387/628)

BH>     Hello, Al.  I've had a great deal more than 15 minutes of 
BH>  fame, and infamy, in the past twenty years of litigative 
BH>  activities.  Since you've been out of the Maricopa County 
BH>  court system for a number of years, you may or may not be 
BH>  aware of my having:
BH> 
BH>   * Stopped an Arizona policy against cross-ethnic adoption 
BH>  (Maria Child v.  Cowan, CIV92-0403 PHX EHC, USDC AZ 1992);
BH> 
BH>   * Stopped the use of the Penile Plethysmograph and Ammonia 
BH>  Aversion Therapy on an 11 year old boy (ward of the State) 
BH>  (Natural Mother of Minor Child v.  Superior Court, 1-CV-SA- 
BH>  92-155, Ariz.  Court of Appeals 1992);
BH> 
BH>   * Stopped the seizure of newsracks of a singles newspaper 
BH>  from Post Office public sidewalks on 1st Amendment grounds 
BH>  (Jacobsen v.  U.S.  Postal Service, 812 F.2d 1151 (9th Cir.  
BH>  1987) )
BH> 
BH>   * Stopped the use of a Psychologist in forcing 5th 
BH>  Amendment-protected testimony, and stopped the punishment 
BH>  of a custody-litigant who was deprived of custody because 
BH>  he invoked his 5th Amendment rights (Montoya v.  State, 173 
BH>  Ariz.  129, 840 P.2d 305, Ariz.  Court of Appeals 1992)
BH> 
BH>     I am presently involved in several appellate actions in 
BH>  which I, as counsel, have been included in the improper 
BH>  sanctioning by two judges.
BH> 
BH>     In one case, in the absence of any Arizona case law to 
BH>  the contrary, and in light of long-term informally accepted 
BH>  practice in Arizona (consistent with permissive California 
BH>  statute and other non-Arizona case law), my client, a 
BH>  father, the respondent in a divorce, sold a 
BH>  community-property vehicle to come up with enough cash to 
BH>  pay another lawyer (he had borrowed funds to pay me), and 
BH>  to buy himself a cheaper vehicle.  Judge Brian Hauser found 
BH>  that, despite very substantial legal argument that the 
BH>  payment of a lawyer constitututed one of the "necessities 
BH>  of life" covered by an express exception to the standard 
BH>  Preliminary Injunction against selling community property 
BH>  during pendency of divorce, my client's sale was in 
BH>  contempt of that injunction, and fined both my client and 
BH>  myself.  The Court of Appeals created a new precedent for 
BH>  Arizona in last week's affirmance.  My proper advice to my 
BH>  client was made before such precedent reversed existing 
BH>  local practice, in which respondent-wives have for decades 
BH>  gotten away with invocation of the same exception in 
BH>  selling property to pay their lawyers.  The time for higher 
BH>  appeal has not yet run on that decision, and my client and 
BH>  I have not yet decided whether to go higher, in light of 
BH>  the AZ precedent being directly contrary to the statutory 
BH>  allowance of such sale in neighboring California.
BH> 
BH>     The more infamous current case, Marriage of Taliaferro, 
BH>  is still pending on appeal.  During the pendency, Alfred 
BH>  Rogers, the appealed-from Judge, is engaging in a tactical, 
BH>  jurisdictionally defective and unconstitutional campaign to 
BH>  deter me and my client (Mr.  Taliaferro) from seeking his 
BH>  appellate reversal.  In a nutshell, Rogers was stripped of 
BH>  jurisdiction on 2/24/93 when I took on the Taliaferro 
BH>  divorce; I lawfully used a "Notice of Change of Judge" 
BH>  which Rogers wrongfully refused to honor.  Rogers conducted, 
BH>  without jurisdiction, the remainder of the pretrial and 
BH>  trial proceedings, in which, several weeks before trial, 
BH>  the distraught Mr.  Taliaferro took an overdose of his 
BH>  anti-depressant (Xanax) and his heart medication, was taken 
BH>  to the hospital to have his stomach pumped, was held for 
BH>  observation, and released as not being a danger to himself 
BH>  or others.  Based on the rules of ethics and client 
BH>  confidentiality, I did not disclose what the court termed 
BH>  the "suicide attempt", and when the wife found out 
BH>  independently, Judge Rogers sanctioned me personally in the 
BH>  inflated amount of $20,000.  Rogers, believed to have only 
BH>  once in his two years on the Dom.  Rel.  bench ever awarded 
BH>  any form of custody to a father, slam dunked my client, 
BH>  awarding custody to the mother despite the court-appointed 
BH>  evaluator's finding that she was unfit, so severely 
BH>  restricting visitation that Taliaferro has not seen his son 
BH>  since June 1993, and ordering 100% disabled father, whose 
BH>  sole income is $428/mo SSI, to pay $380.00 per month in 
BH>  child support.  The appeal is fully briefed; ruling is 
BH>  pending (you know how long that can drag out).
BH> 
BH>     Meanwhile, Rogers attempted to hold a "Contempt" hearing 
BH>  against me for not paying the $20,000 Judgment during the 
BH>  pendency of the appeal.  I refused to appear, because he had 
BH>  lost his jurisdiction, and further because the Arizona 
BH>  Constitution (Art.  II, Sec.  18) prohibits 
BH>  contempt/incarceration from being used to collect a money 
BH>  judgment.  (Perkins v.  Superior Court, 100 Ariz.  186, 412 
BH>  P.2d 476 (1966); Masta v.  Lurie, 22 Ariz.  App 170, 525 P.2d 
BH>  301 (1974); 17 C.J.S.  Contempt sec.  13) As a result of 
BH>  Rogers' unlawful tactics, I was unable to practice in the 
BH>  courthouse for a month while I was seeking emergency 
BH>  appellate relief, and I spent 30 hours in jail two days ago 
BH>  through yesterday.  A Writ of Habeas Corpus and a Special 
BH>  Action are pending in the Arizona Supreme Court to stop 
BH>  Rogers' unlawful strong-arm tactics, but it is the Appeal 
BH>  itself which I am confident will vindicate me.  I am typing 
BH>  this from the NCMC BBS at my office, and am open for 
BH>  regular business starting tomorrow morning, Rogers having 
BH>  been checkmated by my posting of a large cash bond while 
BH>  the Appellate Procedures grind on.  I suspect my eventual 
BH>  vindication on this "15 minutes in the sun" may do me and 
BH>  my representation of fathers more good than harm, in the 
BH>  long run.  (Your former employer is, I believe, supportive 
BH>  of my position, Al.)
BH> 
BH>     My various detractors can gloat, but I am emerging a 
BH>  stronger force to be reckoned with, no worse for wear.  I 
BH>  still hold the legal high ground :-)
BH> 
BH>  -- Moderator, LAW, DADS, CIVLIB, VFALSAC; co-Moderator 
BH>  RIGHTS

BH> --- DB 1.51/004910
BH>  * Origin: Nat'l.Congress for Men & Children (1:114/74)
                                                    ^^^^^^

     I do not have a node list but I don't think 114 is any where 
near Arizona.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1357)
To:      Roger Kluck                            18 May 94 16:02:10
Subject: More Useless Commentary O              

RK> MG> MP> Liberal:         "AIDS is a serious problem we must address."
RK> MG> MP> Conservative:    "fag!" MP> Liberal:         "The 'war on drugs'
RK> MG> hasn't worked." MP> Conservative:    "junkie!" MP> Liberal:
RK> MG> "We must reform health care." MP> Conservative:    "socialist!" MP>
RK> MG> Liberal:         "We cannot continue to disregard our natural
RK> MG> resources." MP> Conservative:    "environmental wacko!" MP> Liberal:
RK> MG>         "Women deserve as much respect and dignity as men." MP>
RK> MG> Conservative:    "femi-nazi!"

RK> MG> When you have the ability to something more clever than this please
RK> MG> post again.

RK>  Matt , fess up you first impulse was to call him a name but 
RK>  you realized it wouldn't be original and would be 
RK>  self-damning.  How long did it take to come up with this 
RK>  great retort when your names weren't available?

     As Lester will tell you, I am not reluctant to call names.     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1359)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 15:03:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington Times, 5 May 1994

State trooper's demotion captures attention of FBI

     The demotion of an Arkansas state trooper who recently 
accused president Clinton of sexual improprieties is being 
scrutinized by the FBI for possible obstruction of justice 
charges in connection with an ongoing probe of the 
Whitewater-Madison affair, informed sources said.

     The Arkansas State Police confirmed yesterday it has 
reassigned Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14 year veteran, from his post 
as an investigor to a uniformed patrol job.
     
     In an article in the April-May edition of the American 
Spectator magazine, Trooper Brown said he had solicited "over a 
hundred" sex partners for Mr. Clinton when he was governor of 
Arkansas.  His remarks corroborated the accounts of other 
troopers who have depicted Mr. Clinton as a womanizer.

     Trooper Brown's transfer was to have taken effect yesterday, 
but he has opted to take a two week vacation.

     "He is upset, no question about that," said his attorney, 
Justin Thornton of Washington.

     Asked if Trooper Brown believes he was reassigned because of 
the Spectator article, Mr. Thornton said:  "I don't think that is 
an unreasonable reaction from his point of view."

     Trooper Brown, who had been subpeonaed as a witness by 
Whitewater-Madison special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. before his 
demotion, now is considering a lawsuit against the state.   He 
said yesterday he is "distressed, to be quite candid and 
conservative.  I am not happy at all."

     The trooper declined to talk about any conversations he has 
had with the FBI.  As to when he would file a lawsuit, Trooper 
Brown said he was coming to Washington today for a series of 
meetings with lawyers of the next few days.

...

     Once described by his commander as the "best investigator I 
have," Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes investigator.  
"I haven't been in uniform in nearly 15 years," he said.   "This 
is incredible."

=====

Inside Politics

Hillary's Cattle

     In this week's New Republic, James Glassman examined first 
lady Hillary Rodham Clinton's trading record with Refco and 
observed that she was spared several potentially devastating, 
breaking margin calls.

     "She was certainly luckier that Stanley Greenwood, a 
well-off businessman who ... was in almost precisely the same 
situation as Rodham Clinton," Mr. Glassman reported.

     During the time of Mrs. Clinton's celebrated trading, Refco 
"sold out his positions, a loss to Greenwood of more than 
$100,000 -- 'even though I still has $25,000 in my account, and I 
was earning a six-figure income.'

     "[Mrs. Clinton] has minus $20,000 in her account and was 
earning a lot less.  Greenwood had a rhetorical question for me:  
'How com she got to stay in, and I had to get out?'"



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1361)
To:      Linda Terrell                          11 May 94 16:20:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

LT> MG>  have," Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes 
LT> MG>  investigator.   "I haven't been in uniform in nearly 15 
LT> MG>  years," he said.   "This  is incredible."

LT>    How come no one has said word one about the breaking in 
LT>  to Rodham's offices in South Florida?  That Rodham who is 
LT>  ralated to Hillary who is running for Office there?  Seems 
LT>  only selected files were taken from his office.  .  .last I 
LT>  read.  No follow up.

     How come no one has talked about the offices of The American 
Spectator being broken into before they broke the first trooper 
story?  Nothing appeared to have been taken.  Must have been just 
a teenage prank.

LT>     As for the Trooper being "reassigned"  In the history of 
LT>  Politics, if you P.O *any* strong Politician, you *will* 
LT>  find yourself "reassigned" They lot of them should have 
LT>  expected such a move.  Any Pol will get back at you if they 
LT>  can.

     Fine with me.  Let whoever did it admit it so criminal 
charges and civil suits can be filed.

LT>     It's also possible some over-zealot "superior" demoted 
LT>  the man, thinking it the "proper" thing to do and forward 
LT>  his own career.

     If people are not willing to take credit for their actions 
then we presume they are attempting to avoid liability, period.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1362)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 14:48:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington Times, 16 May 1994

Research debunks idea of racial bias in death sentences

     A wide body of research indicates that racial bias does not 
account for disparities between the percentages of whites and 
blacks being arrested, imprisoned or sentenced to death.

     Moreover, a study by Stephen Klein of the Rand Corporation. 
in California found that when controlled for variables such as 
severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity 
between those sentenced to death for killing whites and those on 
death row for killing blacks.

...

     Mr. Klein said the research indicating that the death 
penalty is disproportionately applied to killers of whites failed 
to control for factors that dramatically change the outcome.

...

     When he considered the number of victims, whether the 
victims were vulnerable, whether killing took place to avoid 
arrest, whether a sex crime was involved and whether torture was 
involved, Mr. Klein said the statistical disparity evaporated.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1363)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 16:21:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Washington Times, 12 May 1994

Leach files own suit to get RTC records

     Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa yesterday sued tow federal agencies 
for documents in the Whitewater-Madison affair, saying efforts by 
his office to get the records had been rebuffed for five months 
because of their potentially "embarassing" content.

     Mr. Leach filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in 
Washington in his name only, but he noted his position as ranking 
Republican on the House Banking Committee.

     He asked the court to compel the Resolution Trust Corp. 
(RTC) and the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) to release all 
records involving Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Association 
and the Whitewater Development Corp.

     The suit, which is not unprecedented but highly unusual, 
also asks the RTC and OTS officials admit they "violate their 
legal obligation to run over the documents" under the Freedom of 
Information Act (FOIA).

Longtime friend probed as source of Clinton funds

     Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. has expanded his 
Whitewater-Madison investigation into New Mexico, where FBI 
agents are looking into a bankrupt $20 million ski resort once 
owned by Dan R. Lasater, a convicted cocaine dealer and longtime 
friend and supporter of President Clinton.

     
EPA takes heat on Hill for passive-smoke report

     An Environmental Protection Agency report that secondhand 
smoke increases the risk of cancer for nonsmokers is not 
supported by statistical evidence, congressional researchers said 
yesterday.

     "Our evaluation was that the statistical evidence does not 
appear to support a conclusion that there was substantial health 
effects from passive smoking," Jane G. Gravelle, senior 
specialist in economic policy for the Congressional Research 
Service (CRS), told a Senate panel.

     Testifying before a Senate Environment and Public Works 
subcommittee, Ms. Gravelle said her research group had found 
"some uncertainties" in the EPA's estimate of the numbers of 
deaths attributable each year to passive smoking.

...

     "I don't want to talk about all of this legal and regulatory 
stuff, but his is a small, weak effect ... an uncertain effect 
... and it's hard to detect small things," Ms. Gravelle said in 
an interview after the Senate hearing.

     Released in January 1993, the EPA report found the 
environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is a human carcinogen that 
causes 3,000 deaths among nonsmokers each year.

     Leaders in the tobacco industry, who have consistantly 
charged that the EPA's findings were based on flawed science and 
political correctness, felt vindicated and were ebullient after 
Ms. Gravelle's testimony.

...

     But Ms. Gravelle said her research group's conclusion that 
the statistical evidence does not show there are significant 
health risks from passive smoking "flows from an analysis of the 
methodology employed in assessing such health effects and 
purports to no technical research or conclusion on the physiology 
of disease-causing agents."

     Had the EPA used other methods to assess risk, she said, the 
estimated number of deaths among nonsmokers from passive smoking 
could have been as low as three per year.

...

     Furthermore, two major studies that were not included in the 
EPA report found no overall risk of cancer from passive smoking, 
the congressional researcher noted.

     Ms. Gravelle said an alternative way of measuring the 
effects of environmental smoke -- using the amounts of a tobacco 
metabolite (or chemical) found in the urine -- showed the effect 
to be equivalent to smoking one-tenth of a cigarette a day.  Such 
and intake would suggest an estimate of only 600 nonsmoker 
deaths, she said.

     This method "assumed a linear relationship between the 
incidence of disease and [ETS] exposure," she said.  But there is 
"some evidence that disease that disease rises with the square of 
the [length of] exposure or even with higher powers in the case 
of lung cancer," she said.
     
     In that case, the "estimate would be only three people 
rather than 600 people," she said.

U.S. eavesdropping increases by a third

     Wiretaps and electronic monitoring by federal agents, 
primarily against suspected drug traffickers, grew by one-third 
during the first year of the Clinton administration, the largest 
increase in a decade.

Democrats say no to including Hill in civil rights law

     {Enough said-- mg}



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1364)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 17:54:10
Subject: news you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     The Washington Times, 11 May 1994

Arafat's first Cabinet pick is an anti-Israel state rabbi

     GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Yassar Arafat has yet to name all 
the members of the new Palestine National Authority that will 
rule Gaza and Jericho, but on announcement he has made is the 
appointment of Moshe Hirsch as minister for Jewish affairs in the 
Gaza and Jericho government.  

     The 60-year-old rabbi is a prominent member of the Naturei 
Karta sect -- the name means Guardians of the City -- a group 
of ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem who oppose Zionism 
and the state of Israel.

...

     Although many ultra-Orthodox Jews share with him a desire to 
live under non-Jewish rule, most residents of Jerusalem's 
ultra-Orthodox community believe Rabbi Hirsch has gone too far 
this time.  Some said they plan to greet him on his return to the 
city by pouring hot tar on his long, white beard.

     "He's going to hurt bad," said Yehuda Meshe Zahav, a 
prominent member of the ultra-Orthodox community.

     {An accompanying picture showing Rabbi Hirsch.  His beard is 
approximately 3 inches long.  He is going to hurt. -- mg}



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1365)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 17:56:10
Subject: news you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington Times 13 May 1994

House panel's smoking ban excludes few public places

     A congressional subcommittee yesterday approved a bill to 
ban virtually all smoking in public buildings after the measure 
was amended to exclude restaurants, bars, private clubs, tobacco 
shops and prisons.

...

     The bill, sponsored by Rep. Henry Waxman, California 
Democrat and subcommittee chairman, originally called for a 
prohibition in all public buildings, except in designated areas 
with special exhaust systems that would send smoke outside.

...

     He called the Smoke-Free Environment Act the "most important 
legislation in disease prevention in years" and cited the 
Environmental Protection Agency that its enactment would save 
38,000 to 108,000 lives each year.

     Ironically, the subcommittee's passage of the bill came one 
day after analysts with the Congressional Research Service told a 
Senate panel that the EPA report about the health risks of second 
hand smoke is not supported by the evidence.

     {Note also the deliberate exaggeration of the number.  -- 
mg}





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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1372)
To:      All                                    19 May 94 01:25:10
Subject: Origin of morality                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0099 - Law & Disor-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     Origins of Morality
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/19>

     It is presumptuous of me to attack the subject but then
since it was last addressed seriously there has been a century of
anthropologic research.  What once took a life time of work to
demonstrate morality came from god now takes but a short article
to discuss.
     Humans have many characteristics which make us unique and we
concentrate on them to the exclusion of most everything else.
Speech is one of them.  Morality is another.
     We know we evolved from social animals.  Social animals only
exist when they have evolved the characteristics which permit
them to live in social groups.  It existence is identical with
the definition of the species.
     We have many different moral codes as we have many different
languages.  We learn both our moral code and our language from
birth.  A human that can not grasp speech is as rare as a human
who can not grasp a moral code.
     A moral code is simply what permits social life.  The
general rules are common to all, the specifics can vary widely.
It is the same as with a language.  All languages are for
communicating and although they may vary in complexity and the
ability to express things, it is the exceptional language we use
as strange examples.
     It is not uncommon in primitive social systems to consider
their language god given and other languages to only be spoken by
non-humans.  We have no substantive difference in our view of
morality save we will sometimes admit those who do not follow our
system are still human.  We do work to save them from it.
     The British pushed the English language upon the world.
They also pushed the European moral system on the world.
Consider the US uproar over the Singapore moral system.  They do
not agree with ours so they must be wrong.
     It was the same type of person who would have insisted the
way to make a person understand English is to speak louder.  It
was not everyone, it was the sanctimonious class.  The class that
holds their view of human behavior is the only proper view.
     Humans also have problems with changing their moral system.
It is as difficult as learning a new language.  Total immersion
is the usual way to learn and there are truly few who do not
grasp the concept of "when in Rome do as the Romans do."  It is
as easy to learn as is learning to speak the language of the
Romans.
     If we give linguistics some credence then language like
morality is simplifying over the millenia.
     Presuming you will give the above some credence, what is my
point?  I hold it is possible to construct an artificial language
and an artificial morality.  I do not mean a false morality and
we can all tell those as easily as we can tell a gibberish from a
real language.  I mean a morality that creates premises of
behavior.  In this case we can use terms like good and evil and
admit that humans are sinful.
     There is a constructed moral system that did not grow up on
spectators like Topsey.  The one that has been proposed is based
upon the following.  The use of force is inherently evil.
     Humans can be evil but must never lose sight of the inherent
evil of force.  It is incumbent upon us to judge the evil of the
force against the evil of that which we wish to use force
against.
     Government has become out codification of our moral
standards.  It permits our morality that is good only for
relatively small family groups to work for social groups in the
millions of unrelated people.  What is needed is a moral system
that assumes force is evil to be imposed upon our governments.
     And use of force by the government must always be from the
moral perspective that force is evil and must only be used to
prevent a greater evil.  It can NEVER be used to support a
greater good.
     There is the key concept I have been building toward.  Evil
can not morally be used to promote good but only to stop a
greater evil.  (This is not an invitation to doublethink and say
that not providing a greater good is evil.  Honest thought does
not work that way.)  We need the admission that all laws are the
use of force whether or not there is voluntary compliance.  Thus
we would not tolerate a law for the "good" any more than we would
tolerate one person forcing another to do something for "his own
good."
     Notice that this is nothing new.  But also notice what we
would never tolerate from and individual we advocate for our
governments.  We make no pretensions that law makers become
god-like in wisdom by virtue of becoming law-makers yet we
readily accept force by those same law-makers.
     We have not learned to accept that we are evil when we use
force but that our evil can be justified.  We must never lose
sight that the evil of force must be scrupulously justified in
every case.  Rather we have come to accept a public morality we
would never accept from an individual.
     We permit our governments to use the evil of force to
promote good.  The moral system I propose finds this offensive.
It is hardly different from the Hippocratic oath, do no harm.




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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1376)
To:      All                                    19 May 94 21:39:10
Subject: Scoailist paradise                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0036 - Controversy-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

AA> "Choosing to Die"
AA> Newsweek (05/16/94) Vol. 123, No. 20, P. 42;  Katel, Peter
AA>       Luis Enrique Delgado was tired of the rules and 
AA>  regulations of Cuban society, so he had a friend at an AIDS 
AA>  sanitarium extract some blood with a syringe, then had 
AA>  another patient inject the contaminated blood into his own 
AA>  veins.  Delgado is one of a group of young people known as 
AA>  frikis--"freaks" or "rockers"--who claim that they 
AA>  intentionally became infected with HIV by injecting 
AA>  themselves with tainted blood.  Various sources have named 
AA>  more than 30 young people from Pinar del Rio who say they 
AA>  injected HIV, and 55 more who have already died.  According 
AA>  to the accounts, the self-injections occurred in 1989-91.  
AA>  A former Cuban AIDS health worker says that while it is 
AA>  possible that some of the frikis could have contracted HIV 
AA>  from drug injections, the rapid onset of full-blown AIDS 
AA>  among the group indicates that their explanation is a 
AA>  truthful one.  "There is no other explanation for someone 
AA>  dying in two years but a direct blood-to-blood injection," 
AA>  he says.  Cuba's policy at the time was to quarantine 
AA>  anyone testing HIV-positive.  For the frikis, life in an 
AA>  AIDS sanitarium meant three square meals daily, air 
AA>  conditioning, an absence of police--luxuries the average 
AA>  Cuban did not enjoy.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1379)
To:      All                                    23 May 94 21:09:10
Subject: Size as liability                      

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Reverse Vigilance
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/23>

     Some months ago I pointed out one of the serious problems
with a large government is the requirement of vigilance.  The
larger the government the less possible the vigilance.  Losses of
liberty can be snuck through on a thousand fronts and it is
impossible to watch them all.
     On the other hand should there be a concerted effort to
discredit the government its size becomes its liability.  Any
action by the government can be portrayed in a negative light and
there can not be enough press conferences in a day to deal with
any but the most serious charges.  In the mean time dozens of
small charges become gospel.
     The only thing preventing this from happening right now is a
degree of responsibility in the press.  Criticism is generally
limited to political lines.  It is much less common to find
strong criticism of the government in the popular media that has
no partisan interest.
     It is a mark of our times that our government is viewed as
the property of the political party in power.  It is the prize of
the political process.  And reason to win is to effort to win is
to promote a political agenda.
     Were there a organized effort to weaken public confidence in
the government it would require no more than spreading deliberate
lies.  "Everyone knows" the government is in control of every
thing.  It is a simple belief to play upon.
     The government plans to institute water rationing all of the
country in the summer and they use the IRS to collect the penalty
and put you in jail.  There are at least three things wrong with
that statement and the out "it wasn't this summer but it is
coming" sitting right there.
     Would anyone truly question the FDA might have plans to ban
meat consumption?  Throw in a ban on milk production and you will
have mothers in combat fatigues marching on Washington within the
hour.  Claim its head is a vegetarian, find a publicity shot of
him eating a salad at a speaking dinner and it is conclusive.
     Is there any other explanation for all those Post Office
employees other than they are reading our mail?  Haven't you
always wondered why the most important mail is late?  Why do you
think they are trying to automate the Post Office other than they
have a computer tracking who you are writing to.
     Of course you must ignore that relatively little personal
communication is conducted by the mail but is someone brings it
up point out the very silent background on the phones means they
are being tapped by the FCC, and "everyone knows" how many
employees they have.
     Consider the government has been able to minimize with great
difficulty the allegation of an intention to ban all guns with an
intensive effort to point out it is just some guns.  Imagine the
impossibility doing that on a hundred fronts.
     If each bill before congress were attacked with some
sinister aspect to it the legislative process could be brought to
a standstill.  This would require very little work as the farther
from the reality of bill the better.  All that would be needed
would be the working title.
     The citizenry of this country has a short memory when it
comes to particulars.  The people already have little confidence
in the government.  There are enough single examples, such as the
Treasury Department being given the power to ban guns that
another department banning meat is easy to believe.
     A large government such as ours is inherently vulnerable to
this kind of attack.  The lack of success so far has been that
lack of serious effort.  After all there is as yet no organized
effort to over throw the government.
     Our government remains vulnerable to this kind of attack and
there is nothing illegal about such an attack.  And passing a law
making it a crime to spreads lies about the government would not
need any exaggeration.
     And besides, what is so wrong about hamstringing the
legislative process?

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1380)
To:      Michael Pilon                          14 May 94 22:22:10
Subject: SNOW? WHAT DAT?                        

MP>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Michael Pilon <=-

MP>  MP>  Grant you should know better, Matt won't understand  MP>
MP>  MP> Centimetres, he's on that British Imperial system.  ;-)

MP>  MG>  I am on the American system where we redefined the kilogram  
MP>  MG>  to match the pound -- or something like that.

MP>  Actually the metric system was introduced by the French as 
MP>  part of the revolution 

     Yes, which proved once again their skill in cooking.

but don't tell Jack Butler , he is 
MP>  already a Francophobe.  No you are still on the Imperical 
MP>  British system.....and no doubt regret 1776 ;-)

     So do the British.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1381)
To:      All                                    15 May 94 04:55:10
Subject: So much for privacy!   01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
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 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: SIMON JESTER
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/09/94 - 0002477
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0099 - Law & Disor-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Picked this up while cruising the "highway", and figured it might be worth
passing on:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-Copyright 1993,4 Wired USA Ltd.  All Rights Reserved=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=For complete copyright information, please see the end of this file=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WIRED 2.04

Electrosphere

The End Of Privacy

Did you know there's a working group of security agents and telecommunications
companies designing backdoors into the information infrastructure? Now you do. 

By Brock N. Meeks 

[Note: The following article will appear in the April 1994 issue of WIRED. We,
the editors of WIRED, are net-casting it now in its pre-published form as a
public service. Because of the vital and urgent nature of its message, we
believe readers on the Net should hear and take action now. You are free to
pass
this article on electronically; in fact we urge you to replicate it throughout
the net with our blessings. If you do, please keep the copyright statements and
this note intact. For a complete listing of Clipper-related resources available
through WIRED Online, send email to with the following message: "send
clipper.index". - The Editors of WIRED] 

If privacy isn't already the first roadkill along the information superhighway,
then it's about to be. The panel members didn't try to finesse the subject.
They
went right for the privacy jugular, saying law enforcement agencies wanted to
"front load" the NII with trapdoor technologies that would allow them easy
access to digital conversations, including capturing electronic communications
midstream. 

But these are tools the "good guys" said would be used only to catch the "bad
guys." Honest. We hard-working, law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear from
these cops selling out our privacy rights to make their jobs easier. Nope, we
can rest easy, knowing that child pornographers, drug traffickers, and
organized
crime families will be sufficiently thwarted by law enforcement's proposed
built-in gadgetry, which they want to hang off every telephone and data
network,
not to mention fax machine and PBX. 

There's just one small crack in this logic: No law enforcement agency has yet
proven it needs all these proposed digital trapdoors. In fact, "Right now most
law enforcement personnel don't have any idea what the NII is," this according
to Assistant US Attorney Kent Walker, who appeared on the panel. 

Gore Gives Go Ahead

In January, Vice President Gore had promised that the White House would work to
ensure that the NII would "help law enforcement agencies thwart criminals and
terrorists who might use advanced telecommunications to commit crimes." Panel
members representing the Justice Department, FBI, and US Attorney's office said
they had taken his promise as a tacit approval of their proposals to push for
digital wiretap access and government-mandated encryption policies. 

Gore buried those remarks deep in a speech he made in Los Angeles in which he
fleshed out how the administration planned to rewrite the rules for
communications in a new, perhaps more enlightened age. His pledge went
unnoticed
by the mainstream press. 

Notwithstanding that it fell on reporters' deaf ears, Gore dropped a bombshell.
Forget Ross Perot's NAFTA-inspired "giant sucking sound." This was the dull
"thump" of Law Enforcement running over the privacy rights of the American
public on its way **at the on-ramp??**to the information superhighway. The real
crime is that the collision barely dented the damn fender. 

Walker blithely referred to this cunning, calculated move to install
interception technologies all along the information superhighway as "proactive"
law enforcement policy. Designing these technologies into future networks,
which
include all telephone systems, would ensure that law enforcement organizations
"have the same capabilities [they] enjoy right now," Walker said. 

For today's wiretap operations, the Feds must get a court to approve their
request, after supplying enough evidence to warrant one. But Walker seemed to
be
lobbying for the opposite. Giving the Feds the ability to listen in first and
give justification later amounts to "no big difference," he said. Besides, "it
would save time and money." 

And Walker promised that law enforcement would only use this power against
evil,
never abusing it. "Frankly, I don't see the empirical evidence that law
enforcement agencies have abused [wiretap authority]," he said. With a straight
face. 

It's Us vs. Them

For Walker, privacy issues weighed against law-enforcement needs is a
black-and-white, or rather good-guys-versus-bad-guys, issue. For example, he
said, the rapid rise of private (read: not government-controlled) encryption
technologies didn't mean law enforcement would have to work harder. On the
contrary, "it only means we'll catch fewer criminals," he said. 

But if law enforcement is merely concerned with the task of "just putting the
bad guys in jail," as James Settle, head of the FBI's National Computer Crime
Squad insists, then why are we seeing a sudden move by government intelligence
agencies into areas they have historically shied from? Because law enforcement
agencies know their window of opportunity for asserting their influence is open
right now, right at the time the government is about to make a fundamental
shift
in how it deals with privacy issues within the networks that make up the NII,
says David Sobel, general counsel for Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, who also addressed the Working Group on Privacy. 

"Because of law enforcement's concerns (regarding digital technologies), we're
seeing an unprecedented involvement by federal security agencies in the
domestic
law enforcement activities," Sobel said, adding that, for the first time in
history, the National Security Agency "is now deeply involved in the design of
the public telecommunications network." 

Go ahead. Read it again. 

Sobel backs up his claims with hundreds of pages of previously classified memos
and reports obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The involvement of
the National Security Agency in the design of our telephone networks is, Sobel
believes, a violation of federal statutes. 

Sobel is also concerned that the public might soon be looking down the throat
of
a classified telecommunications standard. Another move he calls "unprecedented"
is that - if the National Security Agency, FBI, and other law enforcement
organizations have their way - the design of the national telecommunications
**
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1386)
To:      All                                    23 May 94 21:08:10
Subject: Twilight of Liberty                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     Twilight of Liberty
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/22>

     I know of no person who holds there is any trend towards
increased liberty in the world.  Certainly there is an increase
in freedom, freedom to listen to the latest music style, freedom
to be a vegetarian, freedom to protest global warming. The
liberty to protest anything appears to be vanishing.  There is a
narrowing range of approval of protest in accordance with
government policy.
     Six months ago it was not the policy of the government to
trash the 4th amendment to the constitution.  Six months ago it
was not the policy of the government to make gun owners
criminals.  Six months ago it was not the policy of the
government to pre-empt the power of the states to restore civil
rights.
     I have already written to demonstrate the recent loss of the
4th amendment is nothing new but that it started decades ago and
that each erosion has been in a good cause.  Our rate of loss is
accelerating.
     There is nothing particularly sacred about a way of life
that includes liberty, the freedom of the individual from
government.  Billions live without it, most of those blissfully.
Our interest is in its preservation for ourselves.
     Should we lose it can it arise again?  The rest of the world
is ahead of us in eliminating what liberties they might have had.
While the US turns its back upon liberty so to is the rest of the
world we can have no expectation of the rest of the world turning
around.  Liberty, the right of individual action free from the
government will be lost for a long time.
     Perhaps our ideal of liberty is not the proper model for
human behavior.  That is always a possibility.  All our cant to
self-reliance and personal discipline and rugged individualism
obviously are not shared by the majority in our country.
     Those who are having a hard time in life insist upon the
government making those times easy.  Those who are being harmed
by the government demand better breaks from the government.  Did
we miss something a few centuries ago?
     I consider these valid questions.  I hold they can only be
answered by testing.  This country certainly responded to social
change with a retreat from liberty.
     Were I only challenging concept of liberty and limited
government I would perhaps cave to the idea it has failed.  The
problem with caving is that we have a reversion to a
pre-industrial form of government.  This belies the excuse that
we are not suited for individual liberty.
     We have changed from monarchies to democracies but we have
retreated from the liberty that democracy permits.  We have
substituted a different source for the power to take away
liberty.  We now elect our "monarchs" for a trial period of a
term or two and then send the back for life.  That bypasses the
problem of an accident of birth determining the rulers but it
does not address the entrenchment in power.
     If liberty should disappear from America when can it return?
There are no nations out there to continue the promise, to
continue to demonstrate its benefits.  The true point of
democracy is not that everyone votes.  Rather it is to get a
large enough sample of the population to assure that the nation
is not pushed in one direction at the whim of a small group.
That has always led to the country benefiting only that group.
     What we have lost is absolute limits upon the government
regardless of whether there is a majority vote for it.  A
monarchy can be quite as limited.  The concept embodied in our
lost 4th amendment is contained in the Magna Carta.  Violations
of the Magna Carta lead to revolutions in England.
     If we lose liberty then the world will have to await the
rise of a body of thought regarding the proper form of government
and where it can derive its powers.  It took centuries for the
ideas to arise the first time and another century before there
was an opportunity to test the idea.  And the opportunity took a
revolution.
     A revolution to preserve what will take a revolution to
re-institute is hardly a moral question.  It is only a matter of
timing.  It would appear at this time a revolution could be
peaceful or with a minimum loss of life.  As we can not know the
future it does not appear possible a future revolution could be
less painful.
     The penalty for not acting now is an untold number of
generations enjoying the tyranny of pure majority rule and then a
necessary revolution that can not be bloodless.
     We are coming to the time of making that choice.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1388)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 19:37:10
Subject: WACO                                   

PB>      My mind is far from closed, but it appears that a few 
PB>      members
PB> 
PB>      Well Lester, it should have read bullet-riddled.  If you 
PB>      would like to discuss hyperbole, you only have to read 
PB>      the replies to my posts to see that there is a genuine 
PB>      paranoia on the part of those who see this entire event 
PB>      as a government conspiracy, from the start.  I have 
PB>      heard terms like: poison gas used to describe a 
PB>      non-lethal gas; tanks to describe armored personnel 
PB>      carriers (even the Bradley Fighting Vehicle is not a 
PB>      tank); and government control and manipulation of the 
PB>      media to describe the reports from CNN, ABC, CBS, and 
PB>      NBC.
PB> 
PB>      Compared to this parcel of paranoia, "Bullet Riddled" 
PB>      is very, very mild.

     Your mind is closed in that your simply ignore information 
when the cited source of the information is the government or 
known technical references.  Thus you deny there were tanks when 
the government enumerated the tanks and CEVs in use.  You deny 
there is a conspiracy when the government says it planned 
everything the way it happened except being repelled in the first 
attack.  You deny the technical description of CS gas which says 
it induces life threatening pneumonia that requires 
hospitalization.  You refuse to admit the ONLY source of 
information as to what was happening was the government.

     That is the evidence you have a closed mind.  I have 
personally described each of those items to you in detail and 
provided my source of the information -- save maybe the gas but I 
will dig up those references if you are willing to accept the 
word of the government on all the rest.

     And I do not give a damn if you personally heard (more 
likely remember) any of those points are not.  It is readily 
available information.

PB>      Lester, from what I was able to observe, the structure 
PB>      was intact when the fire started.  If sufficient 
PB>      structural damage had been done the exterior of the 
PB>      building would have failed too.  Most interior wall, 
PB>      though not all, are partitions, not bearing walls.  If 
PB>      you have ever seen such a structure demolished, you 
PB>      would know that knocking one down is much tougher than 
PB>      driving a tank through a few exterior walls.
PB> 
PB>      If interior bearing wall had collapsed, it should have 
PB>      brought the roof down with them.  I didn't see that 
PB>      happen.  Did you? The flimsy interior structure, as you 
PB>      described it, is just that.  Usually 2x4 partitions with 
PB>      drywall or paneling.  Such walls are not likely to trap 
PB>      anyone because of their flimsy construction and very 
PB>      light weight.

     And this is another example.  I have cited court testimony, 
under oath by prosecution witnesses supporting the damage to the 
structure.  Yet that does not get through your very closed mind.  
You could ONLY have seen one side of the house.  The camera crews 
were limited to one viewpoint.  If you will look further into the 
matter the government readily explains why you did not see by 
when it reports the tank that was smashing the walls and driving 
into the building were on the side of the building away from the 
camera.  The government said it.  Do you disagree?  

PB>      Lester, the compound was very large.  The that were 
PB>      punched in the building were minor relative to the size 
PB>      of the structure.  If someone were to drive a tank 
PB>      through my home, there would still be numerous ways 
PB>      out, including the holes left by the tanks.  I can't 
PB>      believe that the tanks were able to block every window, 
PB>      every door, and whatever openings the tanks created.

     This has already been explained to you and you refuse to 
listen.  Closed mind.

PB>  LG>  Now tell me, how open is your mind to reconsidering your 
PB>  LG>  previous conclusion?

PB>      Lester, there are options, possibilities, and 
PB>      probabilities.  You and I will never know what went 
PB>      through the minds of the people in that compound.  We 
PB>      will never know why they didn't surrender, nor will we 
PB>      know why they couldn't find a door or window to escape 
PB>      the inferno.  For all I know, Elvis returned from the 
PB>      grave and set the fire because he didn't like the way 
PB>      Koresh butchered "Hunka, Hunka, Burning Love."

     You are definitely closed-minded as Lester has identified 
you.  This last line indicates you are in need of serious 
psychiatric intervention.
     
PB>      What I do know is that no matter how BAFT screwed up 
PB>      the original raid, whether they were right or wrong, or 
PB>      even guilty of criminal acts, that a reasonable, 
PB>      rational person would have at least surrendered the 
PB>      children to keep the out of harms way.  He didn't care 
PB>      enough about them to save them.

     Then why do you not condemn the BATF for attacking while the 
children were present?  Who else put them in danger?  Excuse me.  
I forgot you will deny government testimony that they had 
conspired to attack for months.

PB>      Lester, you might be able to justify an armed rebellion 
PB>      against the government, though you will never be able 
PB>      to explain why you took your kids along when you went 
PB>      to blow up the IRS building.

     But can you explain why the BATF attacked while there were 
children around?  A school day would have minimized the risk but 
they had to choose a Sunday to make certain they were all at 
home.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1389)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:01:10
Subject: Waco - 2/2                             

PB>  LG> Wake up, Pete.  You're defending a rouge agency.

PB>      Lester, let us assume for arguments sake that the BATF 
PB>      is everything that you say they are.  From what I 
PB>      understand the final assault was directed by the FBI 
PB>      and not the BAFT.  The FBI has always been a very 
PB>      professional law enforcement agency.  Who do you blame 
PB>      for the final assault, the FBI or the BAFT?

     Documented BATF lies brought the FBI into it.  Who was 
responsible?  As for you assertion of "always" obviously not any 
more.  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1391)
To:      Linda Terrell                          15 May 94 05:31:10
Subject: Waco - Murder By Our                   

LT> PB>  PB>    We both know that Koresh was the father of several
LT> PB>  >    children, by different mothers. Many of whom were well below
LT> PB>  >    the age of consent.
LT> PB>
LT> PB>  KS> Well *I* don't know that.  Could you cite your source please?
LT> PB>
LT> PB>     CNN.

LT>          I also *read* it in the local newspaper.  REad
LT> interviews with the mothers, too.

     Then you did not read very carefully or you choose not to 
remember.  But as preamble, what you say is not illegal in the 
state it is said to have occured.

     To the point he married only one woman (no one has produced 
a second marriage license.)  She was 14.  Their first child was 
when she was 18.  There is another woman like that in the public 
eye at the moment.  Her name is Priscilla Presley.

     Next, there were similar claims of "spiritual" marriage but 
there are no connections between the ages of the mothers and the 
children to support the allegation of the age of the women at 
conception.  However, even if true, it was not illegal.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * No Office.  No Oath.  No public trust. H. Ramrod Clinton
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1393)
To:      Terry Liberty-parker                   20 May 94 20:10:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

TL>  PB>      You can obtain a copy of the coroner's report through 
TL>  PB>      the Freedom of Information Act.  That is, if you really 
TL>  PB>      want to see it.

TL>  I live in Austin, Tx.  The Texas state level version of the 
TL>  Federal Freedom of Information Act is the "Open Records 
TL>  Act."
TL> 
TL>  Texas Open Records Act requests, by both media and public, 
TL>  for info regarding Waco events, are getting routed from the 
TL>  State Police (DPS) to the Texas Attorney General; where 
TL>  they have been stalled.

     Speaking of being stalled.  Two months ago the San Antonio 
Federal Court wrote and told me the matter of was under the 
control of the Waco Federal Court.  I immediately wrote the Waco 
Federal Court requesting information on obtaining a transcript of 
the trial.  I have yet to receive an acknowledgement of the 
request for information.  Do you know of anyone who has had any 
luck?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1395)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 May 94 20:07:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR    2              

PB>  PB>      Have you considered sticking to the facts? The reason
PB>  PB>      that the BATF was going to search the compound was that
PB>  PB>      it was reported to them that Koresh had both explosives
PB>  PB>      and illegal arms.  Further he had threatened the people
PB>  PB>      of Waco.  Did you ever read the search warrant?

PB>  MG>  I have read the warrant and no such allegations are in the 
PB>  MG>  warrant.  I would suggest you stop pretending to facts you 
PB>  MG>  do not have.  You have not read the warrant or, if you did, 
PB>  MG>  you are incapable of comprehending what it said.

PB>      Then what were they looking for? What did the warrant 
PB>      specifically say that they were to search for? 
PB>      Kool-Aide?

     You need to tell me.  The best I can find in the warrant are 
the materials for some low grade fireworks and legal weapons (and 
non-existent weapons, not that there is no evidence but that have 
never been manufactured.)

PB>  PB>      This is really humorous.  You support a religious
PB>  PB>      fanatic who claims to be god and when he can't get his
PB>  PB>      way he guns down and torches women and children.  And
PB>  PB>      you think that I need help!

PB>  MG> And he did not claim to be god either.  You continue to make
PB>  MG> things up as you go along.

PB>      Go ahead and ignore the part where he murdered his 
PB>      followers and address the religious comment.

     Let me address that.  There is no evidence he murdered 
anyone.  He was also found dead of a gunshot wound to the head.  
The angle was possible but not likely consistent with suicide.  
The best the government could provide was at the trial.  It 
sounded to me like a reference to using kerosene against a tank 
attack.

PB>  PB>      The government also said that they had explosives and
PB>  PB>      illegal arms.  I saw a large explosion during the fire.

PB>  MG> It was a BLEVE, most likely the propane tank.

PB>      Likely the propane tank.  How do you know.  This is what 
PB>      I find so amusing; can you tell the difference between 
PB>      a gas tank and explosives? I don't think so.

     Because that is the kind of explosion it was.  Why don't you 
get some of the tapes and take a look?  It is your standard 
Hollywood explosion which is a fuel/air explosion.  High 
explosive blows are not nearly as photogenic and it would have 
reduced the fire for a few moments rather than contributing to 
it.  It is the difference between a gas tank and a firecracker 
and the difference is obvious.

PB>  PB>      Could it be that some of the explosives that you said
PB>  PB>      the Davidians didn't have blew up?

PB>  MG>  I have had the moderator of the FIDO Pyrotechnics 
PB>  MG>  conference review the items listed in the warrant.  It is 
PB>  MG>  his opinion they would at best be low grade fireworks.

PB>      I was once at a party where some jerk filled a coke 
PB>      bottle up with low-grade gun powder and set it off in 
PB>      the back yard.  To him it was New Years prank, but it 
PB>      killed his dogs that was twenty feet away, it broke 
PB>      several windows in the back of the home and sent two 
PB>      guests to the hospital.

PB>      I guess that David just wanted to celebrate a little.  
PB>      And I'm the Queen of Sheba.

     I suggest you get a copy of the warrant and READ what is 
alleged.

     Do you really justify a search because of their possession 
of cardboard tubes?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1396)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 May 94 20:59:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR    3              

PB>  PB>      Have you considered sticking to the facts? The reason
PB>  PB>      that the BATF was going to search the compound was that
PB>  PB>      it was reported to them that Koresh had both explosives
PB>  PB>      and illegal arms.  Further he had threatened the people
PB>  PB>      of Waco.  Did you ever read the search warrant?

PB>  MG>  I have read the warrant and no such allegations are in the 
PB>  MG>  warrant.  I would suggest you stop pretending to facts you 
PB>  MG>  do not have.  You have not read the warrant or, if you did, 
PB>  MG>  you are incapable of comprehending what it said.

PB>      Then what were they looking for? What did the warrant 
PB>      specifically say that they were to search for? 
PB>      Kool-Aide?

     You need to tell me.  The best I can find in the warrant are 
the materials for some low grade fireworks and legal weapons (and 
non-existent weapons, not that there is no evidence but that have 
never been manufactured.)

PB>  PB>      This is really humorous.  You support a religious
PB>  PB>      fanatic who claims to be god and when he can't get his
PB>  PB>      way he guns down and torches women and children.  And
PB>  PB>      you think that I need help!

PB>  MG> And he did not claim to be god either.  You continue to make
PB>  MG> things up as you go along.

PB>      Go ahead and ignore the part where he murdered his 
PB>      followers and address the religious comment.

     Let me address that.  There is no evidence he murdered 
anyone.  He was also found dead of a gunshot wound to the head.  
The angle was possible but not likely consistent with suicide.  
The best the government could provide was at the trial.  It 
sounded to me like a reference to using kerosene against a tank 
attack.

PB>  PB>      The government also said that they had explosives and
PB>  PB>      illegal arms.  I saw a large explosion during the fire.

PB>  MG> It was a BLEVE, most likely the propane tank.

PB>      Likely the propane tank.  How do you know.  This is what 
PB>      I find so amusing; can you tell the difference between 
PB>      a gas tank and explosives? I don't think so.

     Because that is the kind of explosion it was.  Why don't you 
get some of the tapes and take a look?  It is your standard 
Hollywood explosion which is a fuel/air explosion.  High 
explosive blows are not nearly as photogenic and it would have 
reduced the fire for a few moments rather than contributing to 
it.  It is the difference between a gas tank and a firecracker 
and the difference is obvious.

PB>  PB>      Could it be that some of the explosives that you said
PB>  PB>      the Davidians didn't have blew up?

PB>  MG>  I have had the moderator of the FIDO Pyrotechnics 
PB>  MG>  conference review the items listed in the warrant.  It is 
PB>  MG>  his opinion they would at best be low grade fireworks.

PB>      I was once at a party where some jerk filled a coke 
PB>      bottle up with low-grade gun powder and set it off in 
PB>      the back yard.  To him it was New Years prank, but it 
PB>      killed his dogs that was twenty feet away, it broke 
PB>      several windows in the back of the home and sent two 
PB>      guests to the hospital.

PB>      I guess that David just wanted to celebrate a little.  
PB>      And I'm the Queen of Sheba.

     I suggest you get a copy of the warrant and READ what is 
alleged.

     Do you really justify a search because of their possession 
of cardboard tubes?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1397)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 May 94 19:23:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>       They had the option to surrender.  Not once, during 
PB>  PB>       dozens of posts, has one of you Koresh-wannabes ever 
PB>  PB>       explained why a rational human being would not 
PB>  PB>       surrender when lawfully ordered to do so.

PB>  MG>  I have told you many times.  There is no law requiring 
PB>  MG>  surrender.  Why would you surrender to people who had 
PB>  MG>  killed at least one of your children and who had shot you 
PB>  MG>  twice when you opened the door?

PB>      You are simply wrong.  The law requires them to 
PB>      surrender to law enforcement officials when ordered to 
PB>      do so.  They refused.  I don't believe that they ever had 
PB>      any intention of surrendering.

     At the trial they were charged with everything under the sun 
EXCEPT failure to surrender.  If it is a law it is one the 
government did not see fit to enforce.  It would have gotten them 
10 more convictions and three people would not have walked.

     If they did not intend to surrender they could have built a 
wall around the place instead of a fire break.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1398)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>  MG> You are as ignorant of what happened here as you are of
PB>  PB>  MG> everything else in the matter.  AND we have proof the government
PB>  PB>  MG> monitors FIDO also.

PB>  PB>      Ignorant I am not!
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PB>  MG>  It works out to $36.5 million a year.  However, as it was 
PB>  MG>  for 51 days then the price of a human life to you is 
PB>  MG>  $60,000 (51 * $100,000 / 85 dead.)  Actually that is 
PB>  MG>  remarkably close to the official actuarial price the 
PB>  MG>  government puts on your life.

PB>     I thought that it was 100 days.

PB>  PB>      Ignorant I am not!
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     You should not have been so quick to imply you know 
something about this subject.

PB>  MG>  I said nothing about the warrant being illegal.  All we 
PB>  MG>  know is that it was perjured.  We do know the Davidians 
PB>  MG>  were doing nothing illegal.

PB>      How do we know that the Davidians were doing nothing 
PB>      illegal?

     Because there is not now nor was there then any evidence or 
reasonable suspicion of any illegal activity.

PB>  MG>  The allegation in the warrant was that they had the 
PB>  MG>  knowledge and the ability to produce weapons and that they 
PB>  MG>  had not paid taxes on the weapons they might have produced.
PB>  MG> 
PB>  MG>  But you know all of this else you would not be writing with 
PB>  MG>  such conviction.

PB>      I am writing with the conviction that I know that 
PB>      Koresh was a lunatic.  

     How do you know that?  I am interested in your evidence.  I 
would also like to know what law that violates.

I know that they were overly well 
PB>      armed 

     They had fewer arms per person than the average Texan.  And, 
as came out at the trial, a bit over half of them were packed up 
for shipment to a gun show and were still packed when they were 
hit by the fire.

or a "religious" group and that Koresh had a 
PB>      fantasy about going out in a blaze of gunfire.  

     No one has found any statement of his indicating that.  

     His actions in calling for help and a cease fire immediately 
do not square with wanting a shoot out.  If he did he would not 
have called 911 and in fact he would have won the shootout.  The 
BATF was down to 40 rounds among a 100 men when they agreed to a 
cease fire -- it was the BATF refusing the cease fire you 
realize.  If he had kept the shooting going another few minutes 
he could have come out and picked them off and THEN reported a 
problem.

I also 
PB>      know that when given the option of surrendering 
PB>      peacefully that Koresh instead decided to shoot and 
PB>      burn his followers to death.

     You know only what you have imagined.  There is no evidence 
either way as to who started the fire save the people who were 
inside at the time and told how it started.  The government 
released its story thirty minutes into the fire and released it 
from Washington.  They had no way of knowing at the time.

PB>  MG>  You also know the government has not been able to 
PB>  MG>  demonstrate who started the fire or how and that the 
PB>  MG>  government blamed the Davidians from Washington 30 minutes 
PB>  MG>  after the fire started.  You also know the government had 
PB>  MG>  created a fire break around the compound only five days 
PB>  MG>  before the fire.

PB>      Was it a firebreak, or did it serve some other 
PB>      function? I was told that the arson investigators said 
PB>      that kerosene was used to start the fire.

     What do you call a fire break that is not a fire break?  All 
brush was cleared away.  Why?  It was not that they needed a 
clear line of sight after 47 days.

     Have you never heard of kerosene lanterns that we knew they 
were using from the news from the time the gov shut off the 
electricity?  

     The arson investigator whose wife works for the BATF, was 
interviewed by ABC news.  He indicated it was something much more 
than kerosene before he said, "I'd better not say any more."

PB>  MG>  He was under no such obligation.  None of the people who 
PB>  MG>  staying inside were charged with that crime.  It is not a 
PB>  MG>  crime nor an obligation.

PB>      You are obligate to obey the lawful commands of a 
PB>      police officer.  That is codified in law in every State 
PB>      of the Union.

     Perhaps if they had been ordered by local or state police to 
so.  However, these were the feds.  They do no have such a law.  
That is the way it goes.

PB>  PB>      To Koresh, life was, evidently, very cheap.

PB>  MG> Are you saying his price was less than the $60,000 price tag
PB>  MG> you put on life?

PB>      From what I understand Koresh spend about Fifty cents 
PB>      per Davidian that he burned to death.  That was the 
PB>      price of the kerosene that he used to immolate them.

     Bad example as there is still no evidence as to who started 
it or how it started save for the 2nd video showing a flame 
throwing tank in the act of using it.  The evidence is right 
there is you want to look at it.

PB>  MG>  Yes there was.  That is the testimony before Congress.  I 
PB>  MG>  can not change the testimony of Sessions.  That is what he 
PB>  MG>  said.  And the gas used induces chemical pneumonia in 
PB>  MG>  children in three hours requiring hospitalization to try to 
PB>  MG>  save their lives.  The government exposed them to CS gas 
PB>  MG>  for over six hours.  I do not consider that humane.

PB>      Was Koresh humane in not sending the children out of 
PB>      the building?

     It appears you are saying the government is no better than 
Koresh.  Koresh won't send them out so the government has a right 
to try to kill them.

     Koresh's mistake was that he believed the government when 
they said they would wait him out and would take no action.  That 
was also said four days before the final attack.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1399)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 May 94 20:08:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  MG>  The BATF is the sole cause of every subsequent event and 
PB>  MG>  bears complete responsibility for them as THEY initiated 
PB>  MG>  the action.  The also lied to the FBI about events.  They 
PB>  MG>  bear full responsibility.

PB>     Give me a call when ATF is charged with a crime.

     I am doing what I can including a dozen letters outlining 
their known and admitted crimes.

PB>  PB>      intelligence report on Koresh said that he was
PB>  PB>      predisposed to violence, mentally unbalanced, and
PB>  PB>      unpredictable.

PB>  MG> You are the only person who knows of such a report.  What is
PB>  MG> its title and who prepared it?  Please be specific.  And please
PB>  MG> stop making things up.

PB>      The ATF had an agent in the compound before the raid.  
PB>      He told them that Koresh and his followers were 
PB>      dangerous.  Turn on CNN and you will get a dose of the 
PB>      facts, for a change.

     I did watch CNN and there were no such reports.  The man on 
the inside has been notably absent from public interviews.  There 
has certainly not been one bit of evidence provided to indicate 
they were dangerous prior to the raid INCLUDING at the trial.

PB>  PB>       Then, as the story goes, the Davidians began shooting 
PB>  PB>       at the BATF.

PB>  MG>  Where did you hear that story?  Please be specific.  The 
PB>  MG>  prosecution witnesses who testified did not say that.  You 
PB>  MG>  should have gotten to the prosecutor with your information 
PB>  MG>  so he could use it.

PB>     CNN. I am just repeating what I heard on the news.

     That story was not what was on CNN or ABC.  Sorry.  The only 
story related to an agent shooting himself is that after doing so 
he shouted "I'm hit" and that the BATF opened fire at that point.  
If you are going to repeat stories you need to get them straight.

PB>  MG> You are the first person to come up with that specific
PB>  MG> variation of the story.

PB>      CNN reported that an agent may have accidentally 
PB>      discharged his weapon.

     Above you recited a certainty to the point of determining 
who shot first (notably absent from prosecution testimony) and 
now you say, "may".   Yes, there was clearly an agent who shot 
himself but he is climbing a ladder at the time.  I have it on 
tape.

     You will also find it a matter of trial testimony that the 
agent reported to have been shot as he exited the horse carrier 
didn't.  

PB>  PB>      then why were they so eager to shoot what were
PB>  PB>      obviously law enforcement officers?

PB>  MG>  As there is no one but you with your version of the story 
PB>  MG>  there is no answer to that question.  It can only be 
PB>  MG>  assumed it did not occur.

PB>      You can only avoid the real questions by claiming that 
PB>      it did not occur.

     I have not claimed it did not occur.  I am only stating you 
are the only person with this version of the story.


PB>  MG>  But the grand jury would not indict him for lack of 
PB>  MG>  evidence it was other than self defense.  BTW:  When he was 
PB>  MG>  charged with murder the sheriff called him on the phone and 
PB>  MG>  asked him to come in and surrender to the charge.  He did 
PB>  MG>  AND turned in his personal weapons.  There is no evidence 
PB>  MG>  of any violence in his nature.

PB>      Is it normal for a sheriff to ask a criminal wanted for 
PB>      murder to turn himself in? No! The Sheriff undoubtedly 
PB>      didn't want to have to face a Davidian ambush.

     Yes it is normal.  If you are charged with it out of no 
where and you are known to the local police you will get a phone 
call also.  It is nothing unusual.  

     However the point is not imagining the sheriff's reasons as 
you are doing.  The point it that Koresh DID come in and 
surrender to the warrant AND surrendered his guns.  

PB>      Can you prove that it was the propane tank? Maybe 
PB>      Koresh stored his explosives near the gas tank.  Maybe 
PB>      the tank was empty.  You have an answer to everything.

     Sir, a fireman on Controversy first identified the type of 
explosion.  I will accept his professional opinion.  You should 
consider doing so also.

PB>  MG> At the testimony to Congress in the matter they bragged of
PB>  MG> having been involved in hundreds of similar raids in the previous
PB>  MG> eighteen months.  I do not have to name them.  I have the
PB>  MG> Congressional testimony.

PB>     Then list a few of them for us.

     I do not have the list.  I have the statement.  If you are 
saying they were lying fine with me.  If they were lying to 
Congress they were certainly lying to the media.

PB>  MG> I think that Koresh was a bomb waiting to
PB>  PB>      go off.  His irrational behavior during the siege proves
PB>  PB>      that he was unbalanced.

PB>  MG> What you think is predicated upon you lack of knowledge of
PB>  MG> the events as they happened.  Your thoughts are based upon your
PB>  MG> imagination.

PB>      Wrong! No rational human being guns down his follows or 
PB>      burns them to death instead of surrendering to the FBI.  

     He was one of those "gunned down."  Are you suggesting he 
shot himself in order to prevent himself from leaving?

PB>      The fine points of this incident may never be known, 
PB>      but we know that they had the opportunity to surrender 
PB>      and they did not.  We know from the electronic bugs that 
PB>      Koresh was hopeful of going out in a blaze of gunfire.  

     Where can I get those transcripts?  The one I heard and read 
said no such thing.

PB>      We also know that none of those who died in the final 
PB>      raid were crushed by tanks or shot by law enforcement.

     When know that seven of them were killed by blunt force 
trauma when the tank collapsed concrete on them by driving back 
and forth over the bunker for half an hour.  That is in the 
coroner's report.

PB>      Koresh joined the club of dead pseudo-messiahs like Jim 
PB>      Jones, we are better of that he is gone.

     You forget the other 89 people the government murdered.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1400)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 May 94 20:32:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  MG> That indicates you have to problem with simply killing
PB>  MG> people who do not choose to surrender.

PB>      Law enforcement did not kill one person in the final 
PB>      assault on the compound.  

     It is called felony murder.  The use of tanks was illegal.

Not one person was crushed by 
PB>      a tank or shot by law enforcement personnel.  

     Just killed with the falling concrete the tanks broke loose.  

Koresh and 
PB>      his henchmen shot and burned them all to death.  What a 
PB>      sad role model you have picked.

     You keep forgetting Koresh shot himself to keep himself 
escaping.  You fail to point out NONE of the survivors report 
anyone shooting at them from the inside.

PB>  MG> Why does that sound like the Warsaw Ghetto -- down to the
PB>  MG> fire?

PB>      It does not sound at all like the Warsaw Ghetto.  The 
PB>      people of Warsaw, Poland were placed in the Ghetto by 
PB>      the Nazi Empire with the intention of starving them to 
PB>      death.  They had no opportunity to have their case heard 
PB>      before a court that could set them free.  You truly have 
PB>      a warped sense of history.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following quotes are from an article titled "Authorities used 
SS tactics against Koresh cult" by Walter Williams.  It appeared 
locally in the State Journal-Register on 4/29, and he is 
syndicated thru Heritage Features Syndicate.

    "Because of previous outrages, 12 years ago, Rep. John 
Dingell described the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, 
Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) as `jackbooted fascists.'  Little has 
changed since then.

    His son, John Dingell Jr., related in a Wall Street Journal 
article in March the similarities between our black-uniformed, 
`coal-scuttle' helmeted, machine-pistol toting BATF agents and 
Nazi SS agents who 50 years earlier, similarly dressed and 
equipped, attacked the Jewish compound in Warsaw, Poland.

    That's not the only similarity.  Janet Reno gave suspicion of 
child abuse as partial justification for the government's action. 
That's exactly what the Nazi news media told Germans about Jews 
-- they were involved in sexual rituals involving children.

    Like the BATF, Nazi SS men said they were searching for 
illegal weapons, reported by paid informants, in the Warsaw 
ghetto. When SS agents stormed the ghetto, Warsaw Jews put up a 
fierce resistance, killing 11 of them and wounding many more.

    The SS had to call in armored military units for assistance.  
The BATF/FBI's armored units didn't use bullets and shells.  They 
used O-chlorobenzalmalonnitrile, known as CS gas, banned for use 
in war by the Paris Chemical Weapons Convention.

    The Clinton people owe us answers.  From what I've learned, 
the Branch Davidians, despite their constitutionally protected 
strange religious beliefs, were model citizens.  They kept to 
themselves and harmed no one.  Members were there voluntarily. 
David Koresh's lawyer says the children were well fed and cared 
for; there was no child abuse.  Besides, when has child abuse 
come under the jurisdiction of either the BATF or the FBI?

    One might argue that Koresh didn't heed the BATF warrant to 
search the premises.  Just because a judge authorizes a search 
doesn't make it right.  If one has not committed a crime against 
someone, what business is it of the government how many and what 
type of guns a person possesses?

    The BATF/FBI allegation of stockpiling weapons is but so much 
hogwash.  Perhaps they should tell us what's the legal number of 
semi-automatic weapons.  Even if 500 weapons are found at the 
compound, that's not even eight per adult." ...

    "Clinton said that Koresh and the Branch Davidians are 
responsible for what happened to them since they resisted the 
BATF and FBI. That's identical to the defense given by four Los 
Angeles police officers who beat Rodney King -- he could have 
ended the beating any time by submitting to authority.

    There are other `cults.'  I bet Utah's Mormons have loads of 
guns. Will they be the next BATF/FBI victims?  You really have to 
wonder what our country is coming to when people who go about 
their lives bothering no one, minding their own business and 
cherishing their privacy are subject to a vicious attack by their 
government while muggers, thieves, rapists, and murders run 
rampant."

----------------------------------

PB>  MG>  The police forces I am aware of follow the some policy as 
PB>  MG>  is in the FBI hostage manual.  All wait them out.  Never 
PB>  MG>  take action unless there is imminent loss of life.  The 
PB>  MG>  Brits had a prison uprising some years ago.  They waited 
PB>  MG>  three months and finally and finally it was over with no 
PB>  MG>  additional loss of life.  They have the same policy of 
PB>  MG>  waiting also.

PB>      They do not wait for 100 days.  

     In fact they waited closer to five months.

Can you name one 
PB>      situation in America where the criminals were permitted 
PB>      to hold the police at bay for 100 days?

     I did not say it happened.  I said failure to wait leads to 
unnecessary death just like it says in the FBI manual.

PB>  MG> The police
PB>  PB>      would be powerless to serve search warrants.

PB>  MG>  Sorry, a red herring here.  The BATF did not plan to serve 
PB>  MG>  their warrant until after they had subdued the compound.  
PB>  MG>  In Florida such searches are unconstitutional.

PB>      No they are not.  

     Sorry.  We just had the case.  The methods were very similar 
down to the concussion grenade.  They are unconstitutional EXCEPT 
where there is a possibility of disposing of the evidence if 
there is a delay upon entering.  (Guns don't flush.)

There are warrants where the police 
PB>      are allowed to break down the door first.

     Please pay attention.  There are in fact such warrants.  
However, until there is warrant service which consists of 
announcing identity and possession of a warrant  (which can be as 
little as shouting "Police! Warrant!" there is no warrant 
service.  Until there is service there is no obligation to 
comply.     



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1401)
To:      Beetle Maniac                          15 May 94 19:57:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

BM>  > BM>  >  Absolutely, the fault would belong to those who ran the
BM>  > BM>  >  seige and prevented the parents from being able to provide
BM>  > BM>  >  from their children.
BM>  >
BM>  > BM>          Not at all.  The siege would be designed to prevent
BM>  > BM>  incoming supplies, not outcoming surrenders.
BM>  >
BM>  >      Lets see.  They refused to supply diapers and infant
BM>  > formula.  They shut off the water and electricity.  What supplies
BM>  > are referring to?

BM>          Yeah, those sorts of things.  Hell, if they stopped 
BM>  the supply of Pampers, they'd have mass-surrenders in 
BM>  almost no time from the stench alone! Long before anyone 
BM>  got even marginally hungry.

     Wrong again.  They were shut off.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1402)
To:      Beetle Maniac                          15 May 94 19:58:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

BM>  > BM>  Parents who
BM>  > BM>  wanted to provide for their children could have done so
BM>  > BM>  simply be coming out and surrendering to authorities.
BM>  >
BM>  >      Surrender for what?  There is no law that required them to
BM>  > leave.

BM>          Once the minions of law enforcement were in place, 
BM>  the relative rightness or wrongness of their respective 
BM>  positions became moot.

     That is what Wallace thought in Selma.  If you are saying it 
became a mano a mano situation we are still not talking about the 
law.  We are only talking about who can win.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1403)
To:      Beetle Maniac                          15 May 94 20:00:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

BM>  >       So you agree the intention was to starve out the 
BM>  >  children.  What more do you want to say about this?

BM>          Well, the children would certainly be among the 
BM>  first to suffer ill effects from the siege, and that would 
BM>  work to the advantage of those conducting it, since the 
BM>  children's parents would, presumably, want to avoind seeing 
BM>  their children starve to death and would, therefore, 
BM>  surrender to avoid that eventuality.  But the presence or 
BM>  absence of children shouldn't necessarily dictate tactics 
BM>  in terms of a seige.  

     The operating manual of the FBI that was conducting the 
siege says that it should.  Explain.

However, the presence of children 
BM>  probably should have influenced the decision-makers' 
BM>  thinking, at least to the extent of ruling out brute 
BM>  force.

     It should also rule out the use of a gas that would have 
required their being hospitalized to save (some of) their lives 
had there not been a fire.  

     That means the threat was to come out or we will kill your 
children.  It takes three hours of gassing to do that.  They were 
given six hours of gas.  ALL of them would have died without 
intervention.  Yes, the children were given a death sentence to 
obtain surrender.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1404)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:18:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  TL>  Now just where IS that old coroner's report.  Oh thats 
PB>  TL>  right, the Feds ate it! Otherwise the Kult Fed FaithFul 
PB>  TL>  would have got sick to their stomachs trying to reconcile 
PB>  TL>  the contradictions between reality and Revealed Truth.

PB>      You can obtain a copy of the coroner's report through 
PB>      the Freedom of Information Act.  That is, if you really 
PB>      want to see it.

     The coroner is a state employee and he produces a state 
document.  The FOIA only covers federal documents.  Buy you knew 
that.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1405)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:19:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>      Many facts and perceptions of the Davidian incident in 
PB>      Waco, Texas can, and will, be debated for some time to 
PB>      come, but it is truly irrefutable that after the 
PB>      initial raid that Koresh and his followers could have 
PB>      peacefully surrendered.

     And the FBI could have peacefully walked away.  What is your 
point?

PB>      For me, this was the focus of the entire event.  No 
PB>      rational person who as facing such a superior force 
PB>      would have anything to gain by sitting on his hands for 
PB>      100 days.

     What did he have to lose?  The government promised him they 
would simply wait him out.  Or did you miss that statement on 
CNN?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1406)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:21:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>     Koresh could have had his day in court,

PB>  CB> Would you mind reposting the grand jury indictment of Koresh?

PB>     It is not in my possession.

     Then what gives you the impression you know what you are 
talking about?  Please be specific.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1407)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:22:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  PB>  Then all of the TV coverage of Koresh must have been a 
PB>  PB>  conspiracy.  We both know that Koresh was the father of 
PB>  PB>  several children, by different mothers.  Many of whom were 
PB>  PB>  well below the age of consent.

PB>  JW> Where do you get this trash, do you just make
PB>  JW> it up??

PB>     This fact was reported on CNN.

     No it was not.  CNN did report unconfirmed rumors to that 
effect.  You could be at least as honest as CNN.  

PB>  PB>  We certainly saw David Koresh lie to everyone on national 
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~
PB>  PB>  tv.  Even his lawyer displayed disgust at his lies.

PB>  JW>  Yep! you do make it up out of your fertile imagination.  
PB>  JW>  David Koresh was NEVER on television with, or without his 
PB>  JW>  lawyer, within 6 mo.  of the attack.  He wasn't allowed to 
PB>  JW>  communicate in any way with the outside world, from the 
PB>  JW>  time of the attack on the church, to the time of the 
PB>  JW>  federal BBQ of the children, he had access through one 
PB>  JW>  audio tape, which the feds admitted to editing.

PB>      Koresh was not on tv, 

     The only thing of interest is that you are backing down from 
your original claim.  That is quite unusual.

but he agreed to surrender after 
PB>      he was allowed to tell his side of the story on a local 
PB>      radio station.  He got his time on the air, but, as 
PB>      always, he refused to surrender.  He lied.

     The FBI told you that is what he promised.  When did YOU 
hear him say it?  

PB:  "National TV."

     If you keep this up we could revive the "Who's on First" 
routine.

PB>  JW> He made a video tape showing himself, and
PB>  JW> the children in which he asked the children if
PB>  JW> they wanted to leave, but the tape was suppressed
PB>  JW> by the F.B.I., and even the press was told that
PB>  JW> the children were being held against their will.
PB>  JW> Can you say liar??  The word fits Janet Reno very
PB>  JW> well, because she called a press conference to
PB>  JW> tell the media that the tape did NOT exist, and
PB>  JW> she had SEEN THE TAPE before the press was lied
PB>  JW> to.

PB>      Children are not able to discern between a safe and a 
PB>      dangerous situation.  Koresh had no right to hold those 
PB>      children in a situation where the eventually died.

     However, the tape satisfied every EVERY criteria Reno gave 
the press when she denied any such tape existed.  Can you say, 
liar?  Psychotic too but that is another story.

PB>  PB>  He claimed to be God, plain and simple.  Read his teachings, 
PB>  PB>  if you can call the rantings of a lunatic that.

PB>  JW> Either you have NOT read his teachings yourself,
PB>  JW> or you are incapable of understanding english, because
PB>  JW> I have most of his public writings (I will bet I have
PB>  JW> more than you even have access to), and nowhere does he
PB>  JW> claim to be God.  The CLOSEST that he comes to ever
PB>  JW> saying anything even REMOTELY resembling your claim,
PB>  JW> is when he said that he was the inheritor of Christ's
PB>  JW> mantle, and had the power to open, and interpret the
PB>  JW> seven seals.

PB>     That sounds like God to me.

     You are calibrating yourself.  

PB>      To be honest, I don't want his teachings anymore than I 
PB>      want to read from the works of Charles Manson, Jim 
PB>      Jones or Louis Farrakhan.  He did not inherit anything 
PB>      from Christ.  His sole claim to fame is murder.  He 
PB>      accomplished nothing else.

     They might make it too hard for you to keep your mind 
closed.  It would take time to find a way to avoid admitting you 
have no idea what you are talking about.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1408)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:31:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  JW>  Whether the search warrant was, or was not legal, because 
PB>  JW>  it was never served, and the BATF testified at the trial 
PB>  JW>  that they had no intention to serve the warrant legally.

PB>      Then why have the officers of the AFT not been charged 
PB>      with crimes? You perception of legality is far removed 
PB>      from reality.

     Reno has to do it and if she opened an investigation she 
would also be investigated.  She is quite culpable in this and it 
would reveal her as a psychotic unsuited for her office.

PB>      Those who later surrendered were not harmed.  I would 
PB>      think that any reasonable person would surrender to 
PB>      avoid further violence.

     There was no way of knowing if they had been harmed.  They 
were held without charges and without legal counsel and without 
contact with the outside world.  How would anyone know?

PB>      The reason for using gas was to flush them out.  The gas 
PB>      was not poison gas.  You distort the facts on a scale 
PB>      that would make Pravda blush.

     Why did they not use tear gas?  Why did they have to use CS 
gas propelled by either poisonous carbon monoxide or flammable 
acetone?  (We do not know which was used.  Government 
representatives has mentioned both but only those two.)

     Where did you get the idea the government did not claim to 
have used a poisonous gas as a propellant?

PB>      If the United States Government did everything in its 
PB>      power to kill them it would have ordered a nuclear 
PB>      strike.  You keep exaggerating the truth and the lies.

     A nuclear strike would have been obvious.  The fed gov was 
caught loading a helo with a drum of gasoline in the Weaver case.  
Why do you think they were not ready to burn him out also?  Or 
what do you think they were going to do with the gasoline?

PB>      My intelligence is not something that you are even 
PB>      capable of judging.  

     From what you have posted you have given a very good 
indication.

While you may try to infer that 
PB>      because I don't agree with your misguided support of 
PB>      the Kentucky Fried Messiah that I am not intelligent.  
PB>      It merely shows that you are unable to debate the issue 
PB>      on the merits of the case.

     It is very difficult to debate a subject with a person who 
refuses to accept the basic known facts of the case from the best 
sources we are likely to ever have, sworn testimony.

PB>      You have made every excuse to condone the fact that 
PB>      Koresh and his henchmen murdered their followers and 
PB>      finally, they murdered each other.  Like it or not the 
PB>      arson investigators said that the fire was stated with 
PB>      a flammable liquid and not gas.  

     Then you have no idea what he determined.  See what I mean 
about debate?  

     In this case we have who know the facts of the case debating 
your fantasy life.  A fantasy life you are obviously incapable of 
distinguishing from reality.

If you are waiting for 
PB>      Koresh to arise from the tomb, you will have a long 
PB>      time to wait.  The Koresh Kabob is gone forever and were 
PB>      are not diminished by his passing.

     Nor would the world by yours.  So?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1409)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 20:49:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  JW>  Koresh NEVER GOT ON TV.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but 
PB>  JW>  the entire church was held without outside communications, 
PB>  JW>  because the F.B.I.  couldn't let them tell their side of the 
PB>  JW>  story.

PB>      Koresh was not on TV, but the story was on tv every 
PB>      night.  

     Despite your lie, Koresh was never on TV.  Why do you try to 
pretend you know what you are talking about?

I don't know if they had outside communications 
PB>      or not, 

     Obviously you do not.  The rest of us do.  

two of their members were licensed ham radio 
PB>      operators and as even you might know, you don't need 
PB>      telephone lines to communicate if you have a short wave 
PB>      radio.

     Ever hear of electricity?  Did you not know they were 
jammed?  Illegally of course but it was done.  When are you going 
to learn to distinguish your fantasies from reality?

PB>  JW> I take it back.  You are NOT semi-intelligent.

PB>     You are right; I'm very intelligent.

     You are demonstrably psychotic.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1410)
To:      Gary Steinweg                          20 May 94 20:54:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

GS> PB>  Koresh had threatened people in Waco.  It was on the news 
GS> PB>  from the first day of the standoff.

GS>  Well, there you go.  The news was a result of BATF press 
GS>  releases.  The BATF ADMITTEDLY told MORE than one lie.  
GS>  Consequently, I refuse to believe anything that originated 
GS>  with the BATF where there is a shred of evidence or even a 
GS>  suspicion to the contrary.

     Actually the evidence is in the warrant.  The BATF was 
merely demonstrating the Koresh was a true Prophet by referring 
to the LA riots before they occurred.  The BATF obviously 
believed he was a holy man and sent from god.

     They were obviously out to destroy him for that reason.

     There is no other conclusion from the BATF warrant except 
that they lied but we know that is impossible.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1411)
To:      Gary Steinweg                          20 May 94 21:02:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

GS> MP>   Weren't 4 out of 5 of the BATF agents killed, were by 
GS> MP>  mercury tipped bullets...(armour piercing)....which were 
GS> MP>  very unlikely possessed by the Waco Davidians, rather, used 
GS> MP>  by the BATF themselves...which went right through their 
GS> MP>  bulletproof jackets?

GS>  I've heard this, but I've also heard the autopsy results 
GS>  are lost and the bodies no longer exist.  It's not 
GS>  unreasonable, however.  I'm reminded of a shoot-out during 
GS>  a bank robbery in Orange County, CA about six years ago.  
GS>  One robbber, 10-15 cops.  60 rounds fired.  Three cops down 
GS>  and the robber dead.  Robber had fired his gun once, and 
GS>  his bullet was found in the ceiling.

     Lets get clear what you heard them.  Mercury is a liquid at 
room temperature and a long way below and no amount of mystical 
ignorant of chemistry or physics will make it armor piercing.  

     The was a report in SOF of a type of bullet designed to 
penetrate body armor that is only sold to the government.  They 
were unable to get official copies of the autopsies also.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1412)
To:      Kate Secrest                           20 May 94 21:13:10
Subject: Waco - Murder By Our                   

KS> PB>  They refused.  I don't believe that they ever had any 
KS> PB>  intention of surrendering.

KS>  I don't believe they did either.  I certainly wouldn't 
KS>  have.  If they had then Koresh would certainly have more 
KS>  than earned his reputation for insanity!

     The Davidians were not charged with "failure to surrender" 
or anything remotely related to that.  They were violating no law 
in not surrendering.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1413)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 21:19:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>  TL>  How do you drive a tank thru a residence without harming 
PB>  TL>  the occupants?

PB>      Let me make it simple for you.  You drive the tank 
PB>      through the living room while the cultists are praying 
PB>      to Koresh in the bathroom.  Whoops...missed!

     Save the FBI KNEW (incorrectly) by their own admission the 
children were on the second floor and by their own admission of 
having the drawings for the building they were driving through 
support members for the second floor. 

     Ask they why they deliberately did exactly that.  They have 
already admitted it.  No one has asked them why.

PB>      This may come as a shock, but the government does not 
PB>      own CNN or any of the other assorted news services.

     It may come as a shock to you but despite your claims Koresh 
was on national TV, CNN has NO source of information other than 
the government.  That is called censorship. 

PB>  PB>     I have never seen CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc... as pawns of the
PB>  PB>     government.

PB>  TL>  Why in hell NOT!  They were certainly coerced and 
PB>  TL>  compromised on Waco.

PB>      Is the same news services that brought Nixon to his 
PB>      knees and have investigated Clinton at every 
PB>      opportunity? Why doesn't Clinton, a democrat leader of 
PB>      a democrat party run government tell the press to quit 
PB>      investigating him? Don't you think that if he had such 
PB>      power that we would have never heard of Watergate?

     For the same reason you are mixing apples and oranges.  In 
the Waco case the government representatives were the only source 
of information and controlled every word regarding events the 
press was told.  

     The Clinton case would only have been comparable if the 
press had been allowed access to Koresh.  They all asked for it 
and it was denied every time.  

     Now anyone who claims to be "very bright" or even marginally 
bright will certainly see that difference.  However the 
distinction will elude you.

PB>      "Paranoia runs deep.  Into your life it will creep.  It 
PB>      starts when you are always afraid." 1960s maggot 
PB>      infested rock group.

     Would your use of drugs explain you?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1414)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 21:28:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>      I stand corrected on the 100 day.  Actually, I picked-up 
                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~
PB>      that number from a pro-Koresh writer on this echo.  Five 
PB>      days would have been too long.

     There is a technical term for such a claim.  That term is 
LIE.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1415)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 21:30:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>      I don't see what needs to be investigated.  A self 
PB>      appointed messiah incinerated his followers.  What is 
PB>      the big deal?

     Anyone claiming to be "very bright" would know the fallacy 
of presuming the conclusion of an investigation to justify not 
having an investigation.  Even a "not very bright" person would 
see that fallacy.  What is your excuse this time?

PB>  TL>>  Petey Percieves them coming out and driving the tanks over 
PB>  TL>>  THEMSELVES!

PB>      The coroner did not say that anyone had been run over 
PB>      by a tank.

     The coroner DID say they died of being crushed by concrete 
that was broken loose by the tanks.  What do you respond, oh 
"very bright" person?



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1416)
To:      Pete Bucy                              20 May 94 21:41:10
Subject: WACO - MURDER BY OUR                   

PB>      He could have surrendered and told his story on 20/20, 
PB>      60 minutes, The Arsinio Show, etc....

     Really?  Is that where you have seen the survivors telling 
their stories?  Please be specific.  How many have you see?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1417)
To:      All                                    11 May 94 03:38:10
Subject: WACO SPEECH                            

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: RICHARD SANFORD
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/07/94 - 0001234
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DRAFT OF SPEECH GIVEN BY RICHARD SANFORD AT WACO MASSACRE
       PROTEST IN LAFAYETTE PARK, 19 APRIL 1994

A little over a year ago, on February 28, 1993, I was
reading some messages on an electronic bulletin board.  The
last message said, "I just turned on the TV and saw ATF
agents break down a door and shoot a little kid."  I turned
on my TV and, sure enough, a gun battle near Waco was
dominating the news.   A hundred police were shooting at a
church home said to contain a hundred evil armed cultists --
men, women, and children.  I wondered, "What could they
possibly have done to deserve that?"

Since then I have been very interested in what happened
there at Waco.  I don't like what I have learned.

First of all, the ATF, our Federal Gun Control Police, were
unwilling to serve their search and arrest warrants
peacefully; they had decided on a violent raid, no matter
what.  The plan was to chase away or kill the dogs, break in
doors and windows, throw in hand grenades, charge into the
house, hold the Davidians at gunpoint, search the premises,
and arrest David Koresh.  And all this destruction and
injury and death-threats were if they met no resistance
whatsoever.  Even if their search had found no evidence of
wrongdoing, they would have taught those God-damned cultists
a lesson!  Innocent people were placed at risk, including
children whose only crime was to be born into a non-approved
religion.  Sounds like a government hate crime to me.

Imagine this in your home.  Maybe they suspect that your
father smuggled a captured AK-47 assault rifle home during
the Viet Nam War.  Police shoot the family dog, throw
grenades through the windows, break in the door, hold the
survivors at gunpoint, and search for something someone in
the family may have that he shouldn't have.  The search
process is more punishing than the penalty if convicted, and
the injuries are spread equally among the suspect and the
innocent who associate with him.  Is this justice?

Before the raiders reached the front door, Koresh came out,
unarmed, to talk with them.  He was shot at.  He ducked back
inside.  A hail of bullets ripped through the door and walls
after him, wounding him twice, and wounding others who were
near him.  This suggests that the raid was intended as an
assassination attempt, if not a massacre.  How can you
justify shooting at an unarmed suspect who comes out to
talk?  I am convinced that the wrong people were on trial.

And now we come to that last day, the day of the fire, one
year ago today.  There is ample evidence that the plan was
to gas the Davidians, knowing that there were no gas masks
to fit the infants and small children.  The plan was that
the government would gas the children, and the adult
suspects would have to bring the innocent children out to put an end to
the torture, and be captured in the process. In other words, people who
were known to be innocent were to be tortured as hostages, so that the
suspects would give themselves up to save them.  Is this justice?  Can
this possibly be legal, here in the United States of America?

This was not some spur-of-the-moment decision in the heat of
battle.  It was deliberate.  It was recommended by high
officials of the FBI.  It was approved by the Attorney
General of the United States.  It was approved by President
Clinton himself.

What is this country coming to?


 * SLMR 2.1a * Don't gas Chelsea, even if Bill is a murderer!
--- MMGR v3.52
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1418)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 16:32:10
Subject: When they came for                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0648 - USA Politic-U
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     [I came across the tail end of something like this and never 
could find the complete post, so here is a recreation.  I later 
found the original but it had to do with the holocaust and there 
is no evidence the person it is attributed to ever said it.]

     When they came for the eighth amendment I did not speak for I 
was was not arrested.

     When they came for the seventh amendment I did not speak for 
I was not for I was not on trial.  [seizure of the property of 
the innocent]

     When they came for the sixth amendment I did not speak for I 
was not accused.  [imprisonment for being a material witness]

     When they came for the fifth amendment I did not speak for I
was not being tried twice for the same charge.  [Civil rights 
persecutions, environmental restrictions]

     When they came for the fourth amendment I did not speak for I
had nothing to hide.  [Chicago]

     When they came for the third amendment I did not speak for
there were no soldiers in my home.  

     When they came for the second amendment I did not speak for
I had no gun.  [Brady and Feinstein bills]

     When they came for the first amendment I could not speak.  
[government approved religions]

=====

     Many other examples could be presented.

     The time is nigh.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1422)
To:      Scott Laroche                          11 May 94 23:38:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN                  

SL>  What the hell is wrong with our Canadian neighbors? Other 
SL>  than the fact that their socialist high-unemployment, 
SL>  high-taxes government is a role model for Tricky Slick? I 
SL>  like Canada.  Well, the western half, anyway.  The eastern 
SL>  half looks like Michigan.  

     Actually Billie Jeff admires the German welfare system and 
models his actions on them.  It is something he wants to keep 
very quite for some reason.

SL>  What cheesy, plastic Canadians are you talking about? Other 
SL>  than the Trudeaus and Martin Short.

     The ones that drive 20 mph in the left lane and think it is 
illegal turn left on green.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1423)
To:      Michael Pilon                          12 May 94 18:41:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN                  

MP>  SL>  I'd rather be in Toronto in July than in in damp, humid,  SL>
MP>  MG> yellow-fever and mosquito-ridden Florida.  How many cheesy  SL>
MP>  MG> plastic tourist dives CAN they fit in one state, anyway?

MP>  MG> Not enough to satisfy the demand of cheesy, plastic  Canadians.

MP> Avec fromage sans doute
MP> Mike Bruyere

     its very runny


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1424)
To:      Jack Wilder                            13 May 94 21:00:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN                  

JW>  MG> Canadian cuisine doesn't have much standing in the world.

JW>          Some of the finest french food in the world is 
JW>    served in Canada, and if your budget doesn't allow for a 
JW>    trip to Europe, then a trip to Canada can expose your 
JW>    children to the same arrogance, and ambience that is 
JW>    found in France!(;->*

     I have never seriously consider Quebec to be Canadian.  
Neither do they for the most part.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1425)
To:      Andy Blaney                            15 May 94 20:19:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN                  

AB>  VC>  Well, I don't know if bananas grow in Canada but a lot of
AB>  VC>  other things do.

AB>         Well, we have palm trees here in Victoria !!!!


AB>  MG> Lichen, blue-green algae.  Lots of things.

AB>  Both B.C.  and Southern Ontario have large orchards.  

     Slimemolds and liverworts do have their seasons.

AB>         B. C. Government is commencing a major Tourist
AB>         advertising blitz, emphasing the FACT that Canada
AB>         is safer than the United States of America, the FACT
AB>         that Canada has a lower rate of crime per 1000 that that
AB>         of the U. S., the FACT that guns are strictly controlled
AB>         in Canada, the FACT that if a person comes into Canada
AB>         for a 1 week vacation that the exchange rate between
AB>         the U. S. Dollar and the Canadian Dollar will give the
AB>         first 3* days are free. Try and top that one at Disneyland !!

     It Disneyland there is more than tens of thousands of square 
miles of boredom.  In fact there is probably more to do in the 
few acres of Disneyland than in the entire region.

AB>  MG>  Perhaps the tourist problem is the image.  "Wild" just 
AB>  MG>  doesn't quite make it.  Hundreds of thousands of square 
AB>  MG>  miles of nothing isn't going to do it either.  Beautiful 
AB>  MG>  downtown Toronto isn't quite going to do it either.

AB>          Whn was the last time that you were here in 
AB>          Victoria or on Vancouver Island.
AB> 
AB>          Just like the beer commercials portray, you can go 
AB>          skiing at 8:00 AM, trail riding at 10:00 am, 
AB>          mountain biking at 12 Noon, sailboarding at 2:00 
AB>          pm, and perhaps attend a theatre preformance at 
AB>          7:00 pm, all within the same day, and within a 
AB>          radius of 50 miles.

     Sounds like Salt Lake City to me.

AB>          Sure, we have vast areas of remote and undisturbed 
AB>          territory.
AB> 
AB>          I've even waterskiied on the Mackenzie River at 
AB>          Inuvik, N.W.T., at 4:00 AM in bright sunlight 
AB>          (happened to be on June 22 - the day of the Summer 
AB>          Soltice )

     A strange thing to do before going to bed.

AB>  MG> Canadian cuisine doesn't have much standing in the world.

AB>          My, my.  Where have you been for the last number of 
AB>          years.  It seems to me, that various contingents of 
AB>          Canadian Chefs have been winning the International 
AB>          Culinary Competitions held each year in Frankfurt, 
AB>          Germany.

     Canadians only count those from Quebec as Canadian when they 
can take the credit.

AB>          Not ALL of us Canadians live on a Molson's Blue and 
AB>          Back bacon diet.

     I know.  I have been to Montreal.

AB>  MG>  What is there about Canada except a change to get away from 
AB>  MG>  civilization?

AB>          Peace, safety, political stability, good economics, 

     a dropping exchange rate, unemployment

AB>          people that still talk to each other, strangers 
AB>          that smile at each other when walking on the 
AB>          streets, clean air, clean water, no toxic waste 
AB>          dumps, cops that are POLITE and don't pull their 
AB>          guns out when they pull you over for a real 
AB>          infraction, among many other things.

     Can you imagine all the effort it would take to invent 
things to say I did when I came back?  "I was speeding but the 
officer didn't pull a gun on me."  That would be the big one I 
guess.  "I walked the streets," would be right up there in the 
top ten.  "A stranger smiled at me," would probably raise a few 
eyebrows.

     I have no idea why you think people will want to go there.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1442)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 06:22:10
Subject: Op-ed piece (another)                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                      What Democracy Is
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>
     People today act and speak as though democracy is some boon
granted by the gods that lets them vote.  As though the only
point of democracy is that everyone vote.  I would suggest that
is garbage.
     Everyone may be a fine ideal and it certainly plays to the
masses but it has nothing whatsoever to do with government.
     The point of a democracy is that without it those that do
have a say in the direction of government will direct the
government toward their interests and their ends.  A democracy is
determined by a large enough voting group that is not determined
by any political position that is involved.  Thus the landed as
voters are right out but those over some reasonable age are in.
     If only farmers get the vote then by damn the country will
stay agrarian forever.  If only the nobility get the vote then
the nobility will last forever.  If only those over the age of XX
vote there is no way to suggest there everyone is not represented
in some manner.  Extension to sex was the first obvious one and
that make no real difference save for statisticians when they can
gain media attention with a gender gap.
     Our issue is not whether we have a democracy or a republic,
it barely matters in the delegation of authority save after the
third term legislators tend to get it backwards.  What really
matters is that we are Constitutional regardless of the above.
     Our Constitution requires not a majority vote nor a majority
poll result.  Our constitution requires a 2/3 majority to even
propose a change to our Constitution and a 3/4 approval of any
change before it is in force.
     But by any variation upon any of the above we have a
sufficient sampling of our population who are voting to make
democracy work.  What we have is a willful and deliberate
intention to ignore the limitations of government in its creation
and instead to accept powers specifically not permitted by that
constitution.
     Democracy is not what we have now because it exists now.
Democracy is completely viable without women voting.  It is not
viable when an accident of birth, other than something neutral
like age, determines the vote.  Certainly there are valid claims
of harm and unfairness by women but the system did work without
them.
     I find myself arguing in the negative at this point.  My
points are
     
     1)  Democracy works because of a neutral sampling of the
population

     2)  The more stringent requirements of a Constitution
govern.

     As such I find much fault with government by opinion polls
and government by consensus.  I find particular fault with a
Congress and a Supreme Court and at the moment a President who
are also officers of the court and hold dual office as officers
of the court in contravention to the Constitution as written.  I
also have a problem with every self-serving BAR association in
this country that holds a lawyer being an officer of the court
and a legislator is not a conflict of interest.
     A long discussion and more than a little digression.  The
fact of democracy is not that you vote but that the system does
not favor a specific voting group of people.  It does not matter
at 100,000 homeless are solicited in their boxes to vote as
2/3rds of them could be disqualified from voting were there the
resources.  It barely matters that the age is 18 vice 21 (three
years) given the two years between voting that is the minimum in
this country -- you miss one you catch the next and only once in
your life.
     Democracy is intended solely to terminate elite control of
the government and nothing more.  When there is a wide enough
voting base for that the problem is solved.
     It is NOT intended to create a world where the majority of
51% rules the losers of 49%.  The existence of a constitution is
what separates the sheep from the lambs.
     Unfortunately we are all sheep these days.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1448)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 06:25:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     The Federal Reserve
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

     There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the Federal
Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal Reserve Notes
(FRNs) we carry around and call money.  I wish to preface this by
saying it is extremely simple to understand.  At the same time I
want to say that the concepts are so alien when expressed simply
that it is hard to understand.  Thus I will proceed from what
they are to examples that you have most likely done.
     The Federal Reserve is a bookkeeping exercise to enforce
discipline.  What happens is that the federal government issues
debt instruments in order to buy FRNs and agrees to pay off in
FRNs.  The debt instruments are Treasury Bills (T-Bills) and the
government pays interest that is paid back to the FRB.  I am
certain I have lost everyone at this point.
     So now we back up to making a loan or offering to lend
money.  We all have done one or the other over the years.  That
is all that is happening.  What is of interest is how it is
happening.
     When your state or local government offers a bond issue
issue it is offering to borrow money at a market determined rate.
Moody's rates all bond offering organizations by their safety and
and the safer the organization the lower the rate.  This is the
same as a good credit risk getting a lower rate than a bad credit
risk.  It is nothing you don't know about.
     The federal government offers T-Bills which are effectively
bonds and are dealt with on the bond market.  A bond is like you
offering to pay 10 dollars next year for a 9 dollar loan today.
You have never done this?
     Of course you have.  If you have ever taken out a loan you
have offered to pay back more than the value of the loan by the
amount of the interest rate.  The only difference is the way it
is presented.  One can not fault mortgage brokers for not telling
you that you will have to $300,000 in 30 years for $100,000 now.
But if they did it would be a 66.6% discounted bond you have
offered.
     In a mortgage or a car loan you have pledge property.  If
you do not make the payments the banks takes the home or car.
Nothing new there but this is not how the government deals with
the FRB.
     The government dealing with the FRB is more like dealing
with a credit card company.  You pledge no assets; you pledge
your income.  Do not kid yourself it is anything else.  You may
have paid every bill on time for the last 30 years.  If you are
laid off try applying for another card while listing unemployment
as income.
     In dealing with the FRB the government do not pledge assets.
The government pledges income.  Income for the government equals
revenues.  Revenues equals taxes.
     In reality the government pledges its ability to tax you and
me in order to assure the continued printing of FRNs.  
     So what?
     OK here is a "furrinstance."  Does the government wish to
increase its loan based upon income?  It simply increases taxes.
On the good side it can not kill the golden goose so it must
balance taxable income against the tax rate.  That is the only
real argument between the Republicans and the Democrats; where
is the best mix?
     Under this system, be it good or bad in anyone's opinion, we
all want the best deal against other currencies in the world for
our personal mix of taxes and earnings.  I can not imagine the
man who would argue against a 10% increase in taxes for a 20%
increase in earnings.
     The problem is the costs / benefits are illusory to a
fantasy in the mind of the central planner.  And thus the crux of
the issue.
     Why should any person be subject to the whim and decision of
a government employee as to the earnings he should have, the
taxes should pay and the foreign exchange rate changes of a
person who has never earned an honest dollar in his life?
     A long question, too long.  The foreign exchange rate for
our money is controlled by buy up or selling FRNs.  It is
adjusted by some sort of international agreement of what the
exchange rate should be.  That means if Detroit finds a way to
crack the Japan market tomorrow and these white shirts decide it
would adversely affect the yen to dollar exchange ratio they will
move to prevent Detroit from making a profit.
     Whether they would or not is a secondary issue; they have
the power.  I do not recall that being a power ever granted
anyone by the citizens of this country.  Perhaps I missed
something.  I am open to correction.
     The world has gotten more complicated?  Fine.  Lets discuss
the limits of the power we as the people are willing to grant to
the FRB.  Then we may or may not give the federal government the
power to make deals with the FRB.  And if we do not then the FRB
can take their pensions and go home.
     Certainly it would be a rocky transition.  The FRNs would
simply be declared to be a fraction of the federal assets and not
its taxing power.  They will not change in the least in the US
save that they can not be printed beyond inflation.  If
foreigners do not want them then they do not want our goods in
the first place so to hell with them.  We have their currency for
our sales they want what we have, there is an obvious exchange
rate for the two currencies.
     That is exactly what is happening now save that we would not
have the FRB involved in "managing" our economy to do it.
     It is good to remember that the FRB was established with the
express intention of prevention major economic downturns and it
was established before the 1929 Great Depression.  That we have
not had a repetition is not the fault of the FRB.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1456)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 23:56:10
Subject: A new conference                       

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0250 - FN-FSPEECH
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                              12-BBS

     A new echo is seeking backbone status.  This echo is 
dedicated to using a 12 step program to help people kick their 
BBSing habit.  Please request your Sysop to carry it today.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1468)
To:      All                                    25 May 94 00:32:10
Subject: Fight Back!                            

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0255 - FN-RUSHL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: HARRY WANG
 * STOLEN *             To: THOMAS JEFFERSON
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/13/94 - 0003631
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0255 - FN-RUSHL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


PRO-GUNNERS MAKE THIS CALL!!

1-800-949-4867

Help fight Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and it costs you
nothing!  Call HCI's toll-free Info Hot-Line from as many different
phone numbers as possible.  Since it's an 800 number, THEY pay for the
call--about 20 cents per minute--80 cents per full length call.  Also,
you might want to play along with their recorded message and leave your
name and number. This will cost them additional funds to send out your
info kit. (Resist the temptation to cuss them out, or they won't send
you the mailing.) Since so many pro-gunners have been calling HCI has
set their equipment to only accept one phone call from each telephone
number, so call from pay phones or whatever.

This tactic works! The gay community allegedly ran up a $2 million 800#
phone bill and bankrupted Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority.

Another expense-generating thing you can do is write for information
from Handgun Control Inc., 1225 Eye St., NW Ste.  1000, Washington, DC
20005.  Your cost is .19 or .29 cents for stamp, and in return HCI
reportedly spends from $3 to $4 in printing and postage to respond,
plus they send you a postage prepaid response envelope that costs them
another 48 cents...you get the idea.  Someone suggested sending them
back the reply envelope with heavy 1/2 inch washers (costs more to mail
y'know...)

Freedom Fighters MAKE THAT CALL!

Info given here is rewritten posts from various sources. Repost freely.

- Pedit Ver 1.9a

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1474)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 23:34:10
Subject: NAZI DRUG PROFILES                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: SOFTWARE
 ***********              Conf: 0018 - S-DEATH&TAXES
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   The Secret Drug Profile
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

     Some decades ago in Germany there was an organization that
made an issue of determining who was Aryan and who was subhuman.
They had a long list of physical factors to make this
determination.  They were able to determine that an undesirable
person was in fact a non-Aryan.  
     They were infallible in their use of this technique.  It had
been developed to a fine art over the decades.  It justified the
determination regardless of any external factors save party
connections.
     To day we do not think much of the Nazi system of measuring
the size and shape of the skull, length of the jaw and slope of
the forehead.  We have this sneaking suspicion that they had so
many characteristics they could pick and choose any they want to
make their case.  We are certainly it was all up to the judgement
of the "expert" making the determination as to which
characteristics were important.
     At least they made their "profile" public.
     Today we have the police and our federal government using a
secret profile that has defied all court attempts to have it
released.  The use of the profile is left in the hands of
experts.  Looking at the wide variation of the people to whom it
has been applied it appears the secret profile must contain
characteristics such as breathing and not being brain dead.
     This profile is for drug traffickers.  It has been used
against seedy looking Columbians speaking no English with one way
tickets.  It has been used against multi-millionaires.  It has
been used against teenagers and businessmen.  It has been used
against people with no luggage and too much luggage.  It is
difficult to imagine a group that has not been found non-Aryan.
     Of course our police are expert in this system and are not
prey to the errors of personal judgement.  In fact they even use
of numeric rating system for each characteristic.  If there are
enough points in the secret system then there is no blame to the
"drug security forces" if it results in the death of a
multi-millionaire whose source of wealth is well known.  After
all his wife was spending a lot of $100 bills.
     We are not as "honest" as the Nazis.  We keep our profile a
secret.  It does not really matter because we would never succumb
to the self serving misuse of the Nazis.
     Of course we must ask if we are any better.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1475)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 17:46:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Washington Times 18 May 1994

Clinton was in no scheme to defraud SBA, Hale says

     David L. Hale, now a government witness in the 
Whitewater-Madison investigation, has told federal authorities of 
an elaborate scheme involving a questionable $300,000 government 
-guaranteed loan he says was sought by President Clinton.

     Hale, who has been under periodic FBI protection since his 
guilty plea in an unrelated fraud case, has outlines the plot 
during interviews with investigators and in repeated sessions 
before a federal grand jury in Little Rock, according to law 
enforcement sources.

...

     Hale has told authorities the scheme included the diversion 
of $525,000 from Mr. McDougal's now-defunct Madison Guaranty 
Savings and Loan Association to an SBA-licensed lending agency 
Hale owned as leverage for a government backed $300,000 loan in 
1986 to Mr. McDougal's wife, Susan, the sources said.

...

     Hale has accused Mr. Clinton and Mr. McDougal of pressuring 
him for the loan, saying the three men met in February and March 
1986 to work out details on how it could be approved.  He said 
they decided to use Mrs. McDougal as the loan applicant because 
her being a woman would make approval easier.

...

     At the time, Hale added, he was unaware of Mr. Clinton's and 
Mr. McDougal's ownership of the Whitewater venture.

... 

     Hale's attorney, Randy Coleman, has said everyone involved 
in the loan -- Mr. Clinton, Mr. McDougal and his client -- knew 
Madison did not qualify for an SBA-guaranteed loan.  He said it 
was made out to Mrs. McDougal in her capacity as president of 
Master Marketing Inc., an advertising firm, in order to show a 
woman as the nominee borrower.    

...

     The scheme is similar to one in which Hale pleaded guilty 
last month to two counts of defrauding the government.  ...  He 
was charged with conspiracy and making false statements to 
influence the SBA for funding to allow Capital-Management to make 
additional loans.

Leach:  RTC may fire prober

     Rep. Jim Leach, Republican point man on the 
Whitewater-Madison affair, says he fears the government's chief 
investigator is about to lose her job.

     Mr. Leach, ranking GOP member on the House Banking 
Committee, said yesterday he is concerned that the contract of 
Jean Lewis may not be renewed when it comes up in June.

...

     Mrs. Lewis' belief that Whitewater took $1.5 million out of 
Madison in a check-kiting scheme has helped to convince Mr. Leach 
crimes may have been committed.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1487)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 21:59:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP                           

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: AUTODOC
 ***********              Conf: 0109 - Debate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from 
a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.

     Pardon me.  Don't we have a vice president?  Clinton can 
simply turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law 
suit or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of 
his personal life.


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