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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_debate_9401


 R_9401 
+++ r_940131 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2121)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    1/9              Sent 

  From: TERRY GOODMAN
    Re: WACO TRIAL 1-09-94    1/2





















----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 * This message is a cross-post from usenet.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
Subject: Davidian Trial - 9 Jan 94
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 02:56:12 GMT

Branch Davidian Trial Update - Sunday, 9 Jan 93

Page 1A

Headline - KORESH'S DISCIPLES FACE TRIAL MONDAY Subhead  -
Increased security in effect as Davidians head for court

This  article  generally discusses the preparations for the
trial,  and some history of the assault on the Davidian compound.

Expectations of "more than 70 news outlets".

"'Security will be enhanced, with additional people brought in,'
said Jo Simpson of the U. S. Marshals Service."

Trial estimated to last 8 - 10 weeks.

"The question in court may boil down to one: Who fired the first
shot?"

"The goal of the initial ATF assault was to arrest Koresh for
allegedly violating various gun laws..."

[Summariser's note: I thought it was a _search_ warrant, not an
_arrest_ warrant?]

Defense and prosecution cases have not been released due to a gag
order issued last fall by District Judge Walter S. Smith, Jr., of
Waco.

Anonymous jury (no names, ages, addresses) by order of Judge
Smith.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Page 7A

Headline - VARIED DEFENDANTS, VARIETY OF CHARGES

Lists the defendants and the charges against each.

Brad Branch - four counts of conspiring to murder federal
officers, four counts of possessing a firearm during the
commission of a violent  crime and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal officers

Kevin Whitecliff - four counts of conspiring to murder federal
officers, four  counts of possessing a firearm during the
commission of a  violent crime  and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal  offi- cers

Clive  Joseph Doyle - four counts of conspiring to murder federal
offi- cers,  four  counts of possessing a firearm during the
commission  of  a violent crime and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal officers

Jaime  Castillo - four counts of conspiring to murder federal
officers, four  counts of possessing a firearm during the
commission of a  violent crime  and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal  offi- cers

Livingstone Fagan - two counts of conspiring to murder federal
officers, two  counts of possessing a firearm during the
commission of  a  violent crime  and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal  offi- cers

Paul Gordon Fatta - one count of conspiring to murder federal
officers, one  count  of possessing a firearm during the
commission of  a  violent crime, one count of aiding and abetting
the murder of federal  officers, one count of conspiracy to
manufacture and possess unregistered  machine guns, and one count
of unlawful posession of machine guns

Norman Washington Allison (a.k.a. Delroy Nash) - one count of
conspiring to murder federal officers, one count of possessing a
firearm during the commission of a violent crime and two counts
of aiding and abetting  the murder of federal officers

Woodrow  Kendrick - one count of conspiring to murder federal
officers, one  count  of possessing a firearm during the
commission of  a  violent crime and two counts of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal  offi- cers

Leonard  Craddock - one count of conspiring to murder federal
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2122)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    2/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

officers, one  count  of possessing a firearm during the
commission of  a  violent crime  one count of aiding and abetting
the murder of federal  officers, one  count  of possessing an
unregistered destructive  device,  and  one count of conspiring
to possess an unregistered destructive device

Renos  Avraam - one count of conspiring to murder federal
officers,  one count of possessing a firearm during the
commission of a violent  crime, and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal officers

Ruth Ottman Riddle - one count of conspiring to murder federal
officers, one  count  of possessing a firearm during the
commission of  a  violent crime, and one count of aiding and
abetting the murder of federal  offi- cers

Fagan and Avraam are British citizens; Craddock is Australian.

While  the  jury is to decide on guilt, the judge will decide
the  sen- tences (if any). These can be:

Conspiracy to murder - life imprisonment Aiding and abetting the
murder of Federal officers - 20 years Possessing  a firearm while
committing a violent crime - mandatory  five years in addition to
any other sentence All others - maximum of five years

"All the defendants have remained steadfastly loyal to Koresh."

The attorneys:

Prosecution - W. Ray Jahn, LeRoy Jahn, Bill Johnston, John
Lancaster

Defense -
   from Austin - E. G. Morris, Joseph Andrew Turner, Terrence W. Kirk
   from Corpus Christi - Douglas Tinker
   from Fort Worth - Jeff Kearney, Chadwick R. Richardson, Tim Evans
   from Houston - Steven R. Rosen, Don Cogdell, Mike DeGuerin
   from San Antonio - John F. Carroll
   from Waco - Richard Fergusen, Stanley Rentz

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Headline - FEDS HAVE PLEA BARGAIN FOR ONE SECT MEMBER IN HAND

About the plea bargain offered Davidian member Kathyrn Schroeder.

Schroeder pleads guiolty to one count of impeding federal agents
with  a firearm  (possible 10 year sentence) and agrees to
testify  against  the other  defendants  in  exchange for the
government  dropping  all  other counts against her, including
five counts of conspiracy to commit murder and five counts of
aiding and abetting the murder of federal officers.

The  plea  bargain  has been signed by Schroeder,  her  attorney,
Scott Peterson of Waco, and Assistant U. S. Attorney W. Ray Jahn.
However,  it has  not yet beed accepted by Judge Smith, and
likely will not be  until the end of the trial, depending on
Schroeder's performance.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - -

Sidebar - JUDGE APPROVES USE OF WORD 'CULT'

Judge  Smith denies a motion filed for defendant Paul Fatta to
not  use the  word  'cult'  in describing the Davidians.  Defense
attorneys  are worried that it will prejudice the jury.

Another defendant, Woodrow Kendrick, is awaiting a ruling on a
motion to dismiss  the  charges against him. This was requested
"after  Smith  had said  that statements he made during a
detention hearing in April  ['93] were not admissible in court."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This summary of the Branch Davidian trial is based on articles
published in the San Antonio Express-News. The original articles,
and any sections quoted herein are copyrighted by the
Express-News. The remainder of  the summary  is copyright 1994 by
William W. Hughes. Copying of  these  sum- maries,  either by
hardcopy or electronic means, is authorised  and  en- couraged,
as long as this notice remains attached and intact. "I do not
work for or represent the San Antonio Express-News"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.org.batf,talk.politics.usa.misc
From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
Subject: Branch Davidian Trial Update - Mon, 10 Jan 94
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 20:51:54 GMT

   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.

--- FidoPCB v1.4 beta
 * Origin: Florida Mail Hub * REC18 * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2123)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    3/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

Branch Davidian Trial Update - Monday, 10 Jan 94

Page 1A

Headline - JURY SELECTION BEGINS TODAY IN TRIAL OVER WACO
STANDOFF Subhead (Page 5A continued) - Security elevated prior to
sect trial

100  juror-selectees  randomly chosen from voter  and  driver's
license lists  of  Bexar [San Antonio], Atascosa, Bandera,
Guadalupe,  Kendall, Kerr, Medina and Wilson counties.

[If  I remember my maps correctly, that's an area roughly
comparable  to the states of Connecticut and Rhode Island. I
believe the total  popula- tion involved is about 1.5 million.]

Regarding  the order to maintain jury anonymity - "The case is
expected to attract an extreme amount of attention from the media
and the public. Many members of the public have expressed highly
emotional reactions and attitudes  toward  the government agents
and the defendants.  The  court intends  to  see  that the jury
is not exposed to the media  or  to  the emotionally  charged
members of the public, either individually or as  a group."  From
District Judge Smith's written orders.

Testimony  phases  of  the trial are open to the public,  but
space  is extremely limited.

More discussion about security procedures, including metal
detectors and X-Ray  machines  [standard airport security type,
from  my  observations Monday  morning].  Also some concerns
since a trial of  "Mexican  Mafia" defendants is scheduled to
start in the same building on Wednesday.

The  balance of the article is a very short recap of the events
leading to the fire at Mount Carmel.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Page 5A

Headline - MEDIA'S INTEREST SIMMERS

Five  satellite uplink trucks in place as of Sunday evening. [I
counted seven on Monday morning]

More media expected.

An  unnamed  individual [presumably media] commented that  a
"Satellite City" was in the process of construction, referring to
the media encamp- ment in Waco last year.

Over  70 news outlets, including British and Australian, have
requested credentials.

Some comments from Marshals Service spokesperson Jo Simpson that
cover- age  is less than that at the Rodney King trial.
Attributed to the  fact that many international news services
maintain offices in L.A., but  not in San Antonio.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - -

Headline - KORESH WAS ENRAPTURED BY CONCEPT FROM REVELATION

Describes  the  Book Of Revelations, with "vivid images"  of  the
Seven Seals and Armageddon.

"The  Rev.  John  Hagee, pastor of  the  non-denominational
Cornerstone Church  [in San Antonio], said that, while few would
believe Koresh  was the  Messiah, many 20th-century events
fulfill biblical  prophecies  and indicate the world will end
soon."

Some discussion of various sects' interpretation of Revelation.

Two paragraphs about other 'end of the world' or "Second Coming"
groups, such  as  William  Miller in 1844 and the Mission for
the  Coming  Days Church  in  1992. Mention that such groups
usually disband  after  their predictions do not come about.

=======================================================================

Administrivia:

This section will include corrections, personal observations &
comments, and pointers to known cross-postings and archives. It
will become short- er (I hope) as time goes by.

Correction - Yesterday's (9 Jan) Update carried a 1993 date. This
was an error.

Posting  - Effective immediately, these Updates will be posted to
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.

--- FidoPCB v1.4 beta
 * Origin: Florida Mail Hub * REC18 * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2124)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    4/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

three newsgroups;  talk.politics.guns, alt.politics.org.batf,
and  talk.poli- tics.usa.misc,  with  Distribution set to
"world." Please feel  free  to forward to other groups that you
feel may be interested.

Followups  -  Default  follow-ups will  be  set  to
talk.politics.guns, alt.politics.org.batf and
talk.politics.usa.misc.

Info.firearms.politics  -  For  some  reason,  my  submissions
to   the info.firearms.politics moderated newsgroup are
apparently getting  lost. Would someone forward these Updates to
this group? And let me know  that you are doing it? I will
include a note in later Administrivia sections.

If anybody is archiving these updates, and/or making them
available  for ftp, gopher, or other access, please let me know
and I will include that information in further Administrivia
sections.

Summarizer comments - All personal comments, clarifications or
explana- tions within the text of the Update will be bounded by
brackets [].  The Administrivia section is all personal comments.

Double-quoted  ("...")  sections are taken directly from
newspaper  re- ports.

I  am not a reporter or writer; I am an unemployed  Computer
Programmer and  micro-computer technician. My training is in
technical writing  and military  status  reporting, so these
Updates will not read as  well  as those posted during the Weaver
trial. Deal with it :-).

These  Updates  are prepared on a home 286 system, using
WordStar  5.0. They  are then spell-checked (usually), converted
to ASCII  format,  up- loaded (via Kermit [ugh!]) to
lonestar.utsa.edu via a 2400-baud  dialup, and  posted manually.
This is a time-consuming procedure; please  excuse any rough
edges :-).

Julia (the baby) has a severe head cold and congestion. Doc says
she'll be  fine  in a few days. Thanks to all who sent their
concern  and  best wishes.






















----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.org.batf,talk.politics.usa.misc
From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
Subject: Branch Davidian Trial Update - Tue, 11 Jan 94
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 20:54:55 GMT

Branch Davidian Trial Update - Tuesday, 11 Jan 94

Page 1A

Headline - JURY CHOICE PROVES TO BE RAPID PROCESS Subhead  (page
4A) - Selection of jury could be completed as  early  as today

Accompanying photo on page 1 shows Koresh's grandmother, Jean
Holub,  as she arrived at the courthouse.

Court officials expect jury selection to be completed later
today.

As  of Monday, 24 of 41 required people have been chosen for  the
jury. Attorneys  will be permitted to reject 23 of the 41,
leaving 12  primary jurors and 6 alternates.

One 20-year veteran of the S.A. Police Department was rejected
after  he declared that he believed the defendants were guilty.

"Jury selection had been scheduled to begin at 9 a.m. Monday.
Because of the  large -- 78 -- there was no room for members of
the public  in  the courtroom, and a pool of five journalists was
chosen. However, neither the media pool nor anyone not directly
connected to the case was allowed to enter the courtroom until
10:30 a.m. Officials could not say what transpired in the
courtroom during those 90 minutes."

[When I and others attempted to gain entry (see second story
below),  we were  given two conflicting stories by Federal
Marshals -- 1.  That  the courtroom was open to the public, but
that there was no room, the avail- able  seats  having already
been taken; and 2. That  the  courtroom  was closed  to the
public. We were then evicted from public property --  the foyer
of the Federal Courthouse.]

Part of the jury selection process included questions on
religious free- dom and self-defense.

One  juror  was excused when she stated that she did  not
believe  that anyone  except  law  enforcement personnel should
be  allowed  to  carry firearms, and that she could not be
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.

--- FidoPCB v1.4 beta
 * Origin: Florida Mail Hub * REC18 * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2125)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    5/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

objective in a case where  civilians even owned firearms.

"At one point, out of the hearing of the panel, defense attorneys
asked [Judge]  Smith to question the people more closely about
their views  on self defense. Houston  attorney  Dan  Cogdell in
particular wanted  to  know  the potential jurors' views on an
individual's right to self-defense involv- ing a peace officer.
But  Smith, who has not decided whether he will allow the  jury
to consider  that someone can kill a police officer in
self-defense,  told the attorneys he would not be more specific
with the panel at this time. 'I've said all I'm going to say to
them about self-defense,'  Smith said. 'I think it's a very iffy
thing at best (whether he will allow the issue to be
considered).'"

Other excluded jurors: a man with limited fluency in English who
felt he would  be unable to keep track of testimony, and a new
mother  who  said she  would be unable to understand how parents
could let their  children die and who sided with federal agents.

"'The  government's the government,' she told the judge. 'I'm
sure  they investigated and did what they had to do.'"

[Baaaaa. Sorry, couldn't resist.]

The juror had been given an extensive questionnaire some weeks
ago,  and were asked to tell about their views and backgrounds.
In addition, there were questions about whether they had ever
been charged with a crime  or had any ties to law enforcement.

One woman responded that she had several family members who were
in  law enforcement,  that  she had participated in "ride along"
programs,  and that  she  had  worked as a security guard and for
a  sheriff's  office transporting prisoners. She also stated that
a brother had been  charged with murder and had "hung himself in
the county jail." She claimed  that she could be impartial. [No
word on whether she was excused or not]

About a dozen members of the panel have stated that they did not
believe that  anyone other than law enforcement personnel should
be  allowed  to own handguns.

"Associated  Press reporter Kelly Shannon was escorted from  the
court- house  after  she commented that it is a public building
--  a  comment prompted as she watched security officers rebuff a
member of the  public who wanted to attend the proceedings.
Shannon later said courthouse officials apologized to her."

[Hey! _I_ didn't get an apology after I was thrown out...]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Headline - PROTESTERS MAKE THEIR PRESENCE KNOWN

Page  1  photo shows Frances V. Sommer being carried out of  the
court- house. [She was later arrested; see summary below]

"Protesters  shouted  'Vote your conscience!' at  about  80
prospective jurors  as they filed from two blue-and-white
chartered buses  into  the federal courthouse at 8:30 a.m.
Monday."

The  paper reports that more than 20 protesters were there.  [I
counted about 50...]

Most of the protesters were from the Fully Informed Jury
Association.

No arrests at the protest, but one person was arrested after
attempting to gain access to the courthouse.

According  to  Larry  Dodge of FIJA, they object to  the  judge's
jury- anonymity order.

"The  association  supports the concept that jurors have  the
right  to weight  the  correctness  of a law itself, rather  than
restrict  their decision to whether a law was broken."

"'If  the  jury is to be anonymous, what's to stop the
government  from padding  the  jury  with government agents?'"
Don  Doig,  national  co- ordinator of FIJA

Frances V. Sommer of San Antonio was arrested on a misdemeanor
charge of criminal trespass, after she tried three time to enter
the courthouse.

[I  saw  another  man dragged into the courthouse where  film
from  his camera  was confiscated after he took a photo of
Frances  being  dragged out (the second time she tried to enter
the courthouse). Funny how  that didn't make the paper...]

Protest signs included:

   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.

--- FidoPCB v1.4 beta
 * Origin: Florida Mail Hub * REC18 * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2126)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    6/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

Is Your Church BATF Approved? Remember the Alamo! Remember Waco!
Jail Judge Smith For Jury Tampering

Gary  Dusljee  of the FIJA, was asked by police to cease using  a
loud- speaker  while jurors were taken into the courthouse.
[Confirmed  --  he was _asked_, not ordered. I was there.]

Donald Hanson (El Paso) and Jay Manifold (Dallas) held a 'Don't
Tread On Me'  banner, based on the old U.S. flag design. Both are
members of  the Libertarian  Party  protesting  government
interference  in  individual religious liberty issues.

Mark  Lucas (Dallas) wore a T-Shirt depicting the Mount Carmel
compound in  flames and bearing the logo "FBI - Federal Bureau of
Incineration". He was protesting federal coverups of the actions
at Waco.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Page 4A

Headline - IOWAN WHOSE MOTHER DIED IN STANDOFF DRAWN TO S.A.

Human-interest  story about Darren Borst, whose mother Mary  Jean
Borst died in the Mount Carmel fire.

Darren  was in basic training for the National Guard when  the
compound burned. His instructor excused him from training so that
he could follow the news reports.

He  is  a sophomore at Iowa State, intending to pursue a career
in  law enforcement,  specifically the FBI. He is majoring in
sociology, with  a minor in criminology.

"'They have to have some good people,'" he said. he also said "he
would bring 'honesty, if nothing else' to the job."

He plans to stay a few days, before he has to return to school.

He believes, based on reports from news media, family and
friends,  that his  mother  was murdered by the FBI. He discounts
claims of  a  suicide pact, sine the Davidians felt suicide to be
an "'unpardonable sin.'"

He  is maintaining telephone contact with his father (who
remarried)  in Colorado,   and  with  brothers  Brad
(Plattville,  Colo)   and   Lance (Maryland).  None  were  able
to make the trip to San  Antonio  for  the trial.

Brad  was a resident of the compound for a while, but got "fed
up"  and left. The parting was friendly, and Koresh gave Brad
"$50, a guitar  and an  amplifier  as  a parting gift." This
information  from  a  telephone interview Monday afternoon.

He says Koresh was "'a nice guy, not the mad maniac some make him
out to be.'"

=======================================================================

Administrivia:

This section will include corrections, personal observations &
comments, and pointers to known cross-postings and archives. It
will become short- er (I hope) as time goes by.

Posting  - Effective immediately, these Updates will be posted to
three newsgroups;  talk.politics.guns, alt.politics.org.batf,
and  talk.poli- tics.usa.misc,  with  Distribution set to
"world." Please feel  free  to forward to other groups that you
feel may be interested.

Followups  -  Default  follow-ups will  be  set  to
talk.politics.guns, alt.politics.org.batf and
talk.politics.usa.misc.

Info.firearms.politics  -   For  some  reason,  my  submissions
to  the info.firearms.politics moderated newsgroup are apparently
getting  lost. Would someone forward these Updates to this group?
And let me know  that you are doing it? I will include a note in
later Administrivia sections.

If anybody is archiving these updates, and/or making them
available  for ftp, gopher, or other access, please let me know
and I will include that information in further Administrivia
sections.

Summarizer comments - All personal comments, clarifications or
explana- tions within the text of the Update will be bounded by
brackets [].  The Administrivia section is all personal comments.

Double-quoted  ("...")  sections are taken directly from
newspaper  re- ports.

   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.

--- FidoPCB v1.4 beta
 * Origin: Florida Mail Hub * REC18 * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2127)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    7/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.politics.usa.misc
From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
Subject: Branch Davidian Trial - Wed, 12 Jan 94
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 17:29:20 GMT

Branch Davidian Trial Update - Wednesday, 12 Jan 94

Page 1A

Headline - ATTORNEYS SELECT JURY, ALTERNATES

Page  1 photo caption: "Branch Davidian Devin Whitecliff, 32, of
Hawaii exits the federal courthouse Tuesday in San Antonio.
Attorneys  selected 12 jurors and six alternates, who will hear
opening arguments in Wednes- day's proceedings."

[Whitecliff  faces the camera, standing to the right of a white
van.  An unidentified individual with his back to the camera
stands to the  right of Whitecliff. Whitecliff is wearing a suit;
the shot is from waist up.]

The selected jurors include 13 women and 5 men. Opening arguments
sched- uled to start Wed. morning.

Tuesday afternoon saw debate on a number of motions made by both
prose- cution and defense attorneys. These motions gave some
indication of  the respective cases.

"Prosecutors  said they'd argue the defendants conspired to build
up  a cache  of arms to kill government agents, and that the
defendants  knew the  authorities  eventually would come because
they  were  involved  in welfare, food stamp and credit card
fraud."

[story continued on page 4A]

Subhead, page 4A - Frenzy of fear cited

Page 4 photo caption: "Members of the media follow a defense
attorney as he enters the courthouse Tuesday."

"Defense attorneys said their clients had been whipped into a
frenzy  of fear  that  the  government was going to do to them,
because  of  their religious  beliefs, what was done to racial
separatist Randy  Weaver  in Idaho."

Judge Smith has ruled that prosecutors may use the word
'compound'  when referring  to  Mount  Carmel, and 'victim' when
referring  to  the  BATF agents killed.

Defense  objected, noting that 'compound' carried connotations of
mili- tary  facilities, and that 'victim' implies guilt. Judge
Smith  did  not agree.

Defense also requested that prosecutors not be permitted to use
the term "Mighty  Men", since the defendants never used that term
in  describing themselves.  Prosecutors contend that Koresh used
that term to refer  to his male "inner circle."

Two  defense attorneys, Tim Evans and Steve Rosen, objected to
the  fact that  no jurors are black. Evans and Rosen represent
the  black  defend- ants. Only three of the 78 members of the
jury panel were black.

Judge Smith has also refused to allow the defense to refer to a
pair  of reports on the assault and siege. These reports were
prepared by ATF and the FBI.

Defense  attorney Rosen wanted to use the reports to show
evidence of  a cover-up  by the government, and to show that the
ATF wanted  to  attack the Davidians, rather than serve warrants.

On the other hand, Judge Smith has prevented the prosecution from
using the term "Ranch Apocalypse" during opening arguments, or
from  referring to credit card fraud.

Smith says the prosecution may bring up these issues out of the
presence of the jury, at which time he will decide if there is
evidence that  can be presented to the jury.

In reference to yesterday afternoon's jury questioning:

One woman had missionary training and her husband was a priest of
eight years.

"'I  have very negative feelings about people who belong to a
cult  and are  brainwashed  and  don't use their own God-given
mind,'  she  said, adding  however that she could be impartial
regarding the Branch  David- ians' beliefs."

All eighteen jurors will hear testimony, The exact 12 who will
deliber- ate will be chosen after testimony ends.
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2128)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    8/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Box, page 4A - PARAGON TO SHOW NEW TV FOOTAGE

"Some television footage of the Branch Davidian standoff, which
Paragon Cable said hasn't been seen before, is to air locally at
7 p.m.  Wednes- day on cable Channel 20. The show, titled 'You
Saw It Here,' contains footage that is to  be used on network
television by 'Prime Time Live,' but Paragon is to  give local
viewers  an opportunity to see it first,  according  to  producer
Phillip Guerra."

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Page 4A

Headline - SELF-DEFENSE ISSUE RISES IN JURY SELECTION AGAIN

Photo  caption:  "Edna Doyle talks with lawyer Don Cosdell
outside  the federal  courthouse  Tuesday. Cosdell is the
attorney for  Doyle's  son, Clive, in the Branch Davidians
trial."

[Doyle (l) and Cosdell (r) are surrounded by media]

"'I  don't  want to waste time putting it [self-defense] in
their  (ju- ror's) minds, if it's not going to be an issue.'"
Judge Smith

Several lawyers did not comment, noting the gag order.

However,  defense  attorney Steve Rosen says the self-defense
issue  is essential to the defense. Rosen defends Kevin
Whitecliff and  Livingston Fagan.

"'That's been our structure throughout the entire pre-trial and
trial.'" Rosen

Rosen  says the claim of self-defense is "self-evident", given
the  cir- cumstances of the original raid.

"Rosen said once the stigma of 'cults, loonies, crazies' is
removed from the defendants, their actions appear in a different
light."

Generally,  the  lawyers are satisfied with Smith's questioning
of  the prospective  jurors, noting that he has shed his robes
and stepped  down to  the  floor  of  the courtroom  to  "avoid
intimidating  prospective jurors."

Some lawyers are privately calling him "Shirtsleeve Smith."

While  not  allowing lawyers to question the jurors directly,
Smith  is taking questions from the lawyers and asking those
questions of individ- ual jurors.

"'I'm  impressed with the way it's happening. The judge is doing
a  good job  of asking questions we would normally ask.'" Defense
attorney  Mike DeGuerin (representing Paul Fatta)

"'He's  been very fair. We'd tell you if he wasn't, but he's
been  very fair.'" Defense attorney Rosen

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Photo  on  center of page, not clearly connected with any  story:
"Jack Deault of San Antonio protests the Branch Davidians
situation Tuesday at the  federal courthouse. Deault called
himself a concerned  citizen  and said he will protest until
justice is served."

[Deault  holds  a sign reading "Is your church ATF approved?"  at
chest height. The sign is about 2' high by 3' wide.]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Headline: MINISTER JOINS WITH PROTESTERS

Photo  caption: "The Rev. W. N. Otwell holds a sign criticizing
govern- ment tactics in the raid on the Branch Davidian compound
near Waco."

[Otwell's  sign rests on the ground and reads "The black  booted,
black suited,  black helmeted, machine gun-totin' _ATF_Gestapo_
are guilty  of killing  children and holding women hostage!" The
sign is about 7'  wide and  4' high. Otwell stands behind it,
resting his arms along the  upper edge.]

Otwell  is  an East Texas minister with a history of  church  vs.
state battles.

Otwell does not agree with the Koresh's beliefs, but has "'some
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2129)
To:      All                                    15 Jan 94 23:41:10
Subject: more BD Trial info    9/9              Sent 

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

kinship with the man who has a right to do what he was doing.'"

"Otwell lives in a community setting with more than 100 people,
he said, adding 'If the government can burn up David Koresh and
his people,  then the government may try the same thing' with him
and his followers."

"Otwell  said he and several other members of his 'God Said'
Ministries were  protesting what they maintained was a breach of
First  and  Second Amendment  rights  and  the 'eventual
slaughter of the  men,  women  and children who dared to take a
firm stand on what they believed.'"

"'David  Koresh  and  the Branch Davidians were set up and  used
as  an example  to  all preachers and families who refuse to live
and  operate inside  the mainstream religious organizations and
under the control  of the government.'" Otwell

"To  the  11 Branch Davidians on trial, Otwell delivered  a
message  of solidarity: 'Y'all hang in there. We're still
supporting you.'"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Headline:  WELL-DRESSED DEFENDANTS HAVE ATTORNEYS TO THANK FOR
CLOTHING DURING THE TRIAL

Notes that most of the defendants lost everything in the fire,
including their clothing.

Defense  attorneys bought or donated "'suits, ties, socks and
jackets'" to the Davidians. Rosen

Rosen  also  mentioned Payless Shoe Source and  Barry
Manufacturing  [a local men's store].

Judge  Smith  denied a request by attorney  John  Carroll
(representing Avraam) for funding to buy clothing. "'There are
some 16 male  attorneys representing defendants in this case, all
of various sizes and shapes. 'It  is  probable  that all of them
have spare  clothing  in  their closets that could be lent to the
defendants.'"

Descriptions  of  the  defendants indicate  clean,  conservative
suits, mostly  greys and dark blues. Defendant Ruth Ottman Riddle
had  a  green dress with black braid and a brown coat.

                                 - * -

                               CORRECTION

In  yesterday's Update, under IOWAN WHOSE MOTHER DIED IN STANDOFF
DRAWN TO S.A., the last line:

He says Koresh was "'a nice guy, not the mad maniac some make him
out to be.'"

should have been attributed to Darren Borst, not Brad Borst.
Darren  met Koresh during visits with his mother and his brother,
Brad, at the Mount Carmel facility.

                                 - * -

                                COMMENTS

In  the page 1 story, there is a reference to charges of
welfare,  food stamp and credit card fraud. This is the first
that I have head of these allegations. Does anybody have any
information about this?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2278)
To:      Lanny Roff                             16 Jan 94 21:54:10
Subject: Are The Troopers Lyi              Sent 

LR>  MG>  I would suggest you see if you can get your money back on
LR>  MG>  that Civic 102 course.

LR>  MG>  Do you know how that man power is justified?  By connecting
LR>  MG>  the jobs to the laws they are implementing.  There is no
LR>  MG>  excuse for not implementing a law based upon man power
LR>  MG>  limitations.  The exec can certainly prioritize but they can
LR>  MG>  not ignore law based upon man power.

LR>          You are wrong.  The defense department since I have
LR>          been an employee has grown exponentially.

     I started in 1967 and quit in 1985.  I would be quite
surprised at exponential growth since then save if an exponential
curve is not the best fit to the growth.

This is
LR>          not in reaction to laws born in Congressional minds
LR>          but because the DoD has time and time again created
LR>          projects they felt absolutely necessary and then
LR>          went to Congress with bias information to prove
LR>          them necessary to get money for those projects.  It
LR>          is not conceived in the halls of congress but in
LR>          the pentagon.  The pentagon is very adept at using
LR>          the political wind to get what it wants.  And once
LR>          a project starts, it rarely ends.  Not because
LR>          Congress wills it so, but because the pentagon
LR>          keeps putting the item in the budget and justifying
LR>          its need.  Now you tell me where the impetus for
LR>          government spending is coming from??

     You have obviously never written up the annual reports to
Congress as to how the money is being spent.  There must be one
such write up for each line item.  A line item is a named
congressional appropriation.  The money must be spent for that
line and in accordance with all the back up material that is
relevant to that line item.

LR>  MG>  So they must maintain man power as long as there is a law
LR>  MG>  to be implemented.  And more technically the Executive
LR>  MG>  Branch can do nothing that is not pursuant to a law of some
LR>  MG>  sort; therefore every person doing something is tracable
LR>  MG>  back to a law.

LR>          You are technically correct.  But, there can be no
LR>   doubt that the executive departments, could easily
LR>   downsize by ridding themselves of many unnecessary
LR>   projects.

     They must go to Congress and request termination of the line
item funding of those projects.

My agency has entire staffs that do nothing but
LR>   visit congressional staffers and answer questions as to
LR>   the need of projects.

     If you are suggesting they are lying to Congress, we now
know from the North experience, turn about is not fair play.
Report them.  There is a hot line number.

Congress rarely provides all the
LR>   money that is asked for.  Believe me Congress is not
LR>   knocking on the door of any department and asking for them
LR>   to spend more money.

     I am fully aware of the strategy of asking for more money
and just how much more money than Congress is likely to
appropriate.  In practice most of the cuts are made long before
the budget get to Congress.  Ask the staff of your service
secretary for details.

LR>  MG>  The areas of conflict are those regarding support functions
LR>  MG>  to implement those laws.

LR>          Such as buying B2 bombers to defend the nation?  Or
LR>          spending billions on StarWars etc.?  Is that what
LR>          you are talking about.  Was it Congress who thought
LR>          those two "support functions" up?

     The two examples you mention are line items in the budget.
Staff is your logistics and RM&A as well as your travel and
personnel offices in addition to all the other folks running
around to assure you are doing a good job but who do not
understand the job you are doing in the least.

LR>  MG>  There will be no kissing around here.  It is reported to be
LR>  MG>  in the NYT paperback copy of the proposal.

LR>    I'll read it and get back, thanks!

     Since you are open to advice let me tell you of one other
thing.  Every year around 100 civilians go through the Defense
Systems Management College Program Management Course at Ft.
Belvoir, Virginia.  I would suggest you contact the "staff" at
your training office and see what it takes to apply and get in
it.

     When I went through it ran 20 weeks and was considered much
more effort than getting a Masters at the Naval Post Graduate
School.  I did not need much of it but I had to fill a square in
my career path.  I would suggest you can greatly profit from it
in a lot of areas.  That is not meant to be denigrating in the
least.  There is one hell of a lot to learn and that cram course
will get it into you if you are up to it and you can get your
boss to part with you.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * Taxes are never raised to benefit the taxed.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2279)
To:      Jim Kennemur                           16 Jan 94 16:22:10
Subject: ATF News [3/3]                         Sent 

JK> >       I have yet to hear or read anyone trying to make
JK> >  heroes of them.

JK>  Gee.  I guess the article in the American Spector (which
JK>  Rush hawks 20 times a day) that has a headline  "DID THE US
JK>  GOVERNMENT KILL KORESH BECAUSE HE WAS A WHITE MALE
JK>  RELIGIOUS GUN COLLECTING TAX RESISTER" was an expression of
JK>  faith in the authorities.

     Those two are not opposites.  Pointing out the government
screwed up royally, violated a number of laws, and potentially
acted out of malice says not one thing about the target.  Or are
you suggesting the prosecution of the LA cops makes Rodney King a
hero?

JK> > JK>   assault.  The federal authorities did not spread flamable
JK> > JK>   liquids around the place.

JK> >      Nor did anyone so far as I have heard, unless you are
JK> > refering to knocked over kerosene lamps.

JK>  You should have watched Prime Time Thursday night.  They
JK>   showed infared photos of the fire starting in 3 places at
JK>   once.  They also have recording from bugs inside the
JK>   compound of Mr.  Jesus saying, "Light her up."

     I did see the show and saw the photos and they were not on
the screen long enough to see what in the hell they were showing.
Nor was there a date/time stamp on them.

     I also find it highly coincidental they happened to have a
plane overhead at the right time that just happened to take the
right picture.

     I would also point out the news of those multiple fires was
released by Washington while the fire was still burning and
reported in real time by CNN.

     I find the claim less than credible.

     Those three words prove absolutely nothing as they could
apply to anything from a cigarette to a lamp.  More convincing
would be words ordering the spread of kerosene, plans for
coordinating start of the fire on his signal.  Most anything else
would more indicative than those three words.

JK> >      As you know they were within their rights to resist.
JK> >
JK> > Texas Penal Code, Subchapter C, Article 9.31, Self-Defense:

JK>  Sorry Matt.  Those were federal warrants.  Texas state law
JK>  does not apply.

     That law applies in the state of Texas.  The law makes no
distinction between state and federal warrants.  The states may
always provide additional protections to their citizens than are
granted by the federal government.  The Federal government is
bound by the laws of the states and must act in compliance with
the laws of those states.

     Sorry, the law is fully applicable and covers the case at
hand.  That is the way the law works in this country.

Admit it all you conservative, gun loving
JK>  good ole boys.  You have spent years defending aggressive
JK>  law enforcement agencies when they bust liberal or minority
JK>  heads, but when its one of your own you suddenly sound like
JK>  the Berkley Free Speech Movement 1994.  How does it feel to
JK>  be on the other side of the hammer?

     You mean your sole reason for supporting the government is
they attacked some group you don't like?  You are taking sides
solely upon "getting even"?

     And if you think that of me you have not read much of what I
have written on such subjects.

     So tell me, now that the Texas Rangers have testified they
recovered no illegal weapons, what do you think of the
government's justification for the initial attack?


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * Politically Correct.  Life in a spell checker world.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2280)
To:      David North                            16 Jan 94 22:24:10
Subject: AWARE V. FAIR                          Sent 

DN>  PC> We require licences for our dogs, to get a driver's licence
DN>  PC> we must past tests, so why not same for a lethal weapon.  . . .

DN>  LG> Knives too?

DN>       Interesting point, and it raises another matter.  My
DN>      state's 'concealed weapons carry permit' law includes
DN>      the stipulation that carrying any knife with a blade
DN>      longer that 3" is punishable by an increasing table of
DN>      fines and jail terms.  Steak knives and assorted kitchen
DN>      knives have blades in this category, and carrying them
DN>      out of the store in a bag or package is "concealed".

     Concealed but not readily accessible is the usual criteria.
It does help to look at the actual law.  Many things are accepted
as true but are not.

     I once took the time to find the actual federal law on
carrying knives on commercial aircraft.  (Warning, this is old
information.)  Despite everything I had been hearing from dozens
of very frequent flyers like myself, the limit was over 5 (five)
inches of cutting edge length.

     And all those years I had been concerned over a Rigid three
inch with aluminum bolsters that never showed up on the any
detector, even the hand held when it swept over it in my pocket.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * Clinton thinks we want guns to protect ourselves from ducks.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2281)
To:      Saleem Shafi                           16 Jan 94 16:47:10
Subject: Brady Bull                             Sent 

SS> SS> Antlers are legal, but legal doesn't mean fair...

SS>  MG>       When you develop a universal definition of the word
SS>  MG>  fair please feel free to continue the discussion with that
SS>  MG>  definition as a preface.

SS>  How about, something that is fair is not harmful to anyone
SS>  not deserving harm...  And those deserving harm only are
SS>  dealt what they deserve...

     A deer is not a person, even in the Koran.

SS> SS>  What idiot told the people to wipe out the natural
SS> SS>  predators...

SS>  MG>       If you would give me your address I will do what I can
SS>  MG>  to have a pack of timber wolves delivered to your door.

SS>  I don't know about a pack, but a nice pup would do nicely,
SS>  thank you...

     A pup is not a predator to deer.  I mean a pack of them all
wild and hungry.  You appear to want predators to do the work.

SS>  MG>       You are a veggiehead also?  How contrary to the Koran.
SS>  MG>  I am beginning to think you are playing games, pretending
SS>  MG>  to a parody of a fundie air head.

SS>  Wow...  That's alot better then some of the stuf I've gotten
SS>  before...  I'm going to have to write this down....parody of
SS>  a fundie air head...  OK got it...

SS>  Anyway, no I'm nota vegetarian...  I like meat...  Alot...
SS>  But that doesn't mean I'm going to go out and slaughter a
SS>  few deer for a meal...  If I need food I'll eat what I have,
SS>  and if I run out, I'll buy more,

     You mean you would rather pay someone else to slaughter your
meat for you, stun it, string it up by its hind legs, slit its
throat to drain the blood so it dies by blood loss.  You would
prefer to pay for that to be done for you rather than consider a
clean kill with a bullet.

If I don't have the money,
SS>  then I'll hunt...  But only then, and I'm not going to out
SS>  with a semi-automatic either...

     Why would the type of weapon matter?  You think it is
somehow unfair?  You would have a deer live while you starve to
death?  Do you think Allah would accept you letting yourself die
because you wanted to be fair to an animal?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2282)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jan 94 22:33:10
Subject: BRADY BULL                             Sent 

MP>  PB> Marvelous... policy based upon wishful thinking!

MP>  Sadly true, we have had two convenience store killings in
MP>  the past 3 months which is unusual for here,seems like the
MP>  same two guys.  Hope they get them soon as once they get
MP>  cocky they will strike again.

     Down here the convenience store people often get them as
they are also armed.  Unfortunately that can never happen in
Canada as Canadian convenience store clerk would go on a murder
rampage were they permitted to carry guns.  I have no idea why
you folks are afraid of convenience store clerks but that is your
country.  They must be quite unstable up your way.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * There is a voter born every minute. -- P.T. Clinton
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2283)
To:      Alec Grynspan                          16 Jan 94 22:37:10
Subject: Brady Bull                             Sent 

AG>  JL>  Gosh, Saleem, ever eat at McDonalds? Ever eat a pepperoni
AG>  JL>  pizza? If so, do you assume all the meat is kosher (or
AG>  JL>  whatever word passes for the same thing in Islam)?  Or are
AG>  JL>  you a vegetarian except for kosher meat?

AG>  The term is halal.  Halal meats include meats and cuts *NOT*
AG>  found under halacha (kosher), which is not surprising -
AG>  since most of the constraints of Halacha post-date
AG>  Leviticus Mohammed.

     From an ex-employee of Pizza Hut, any Jew or Muslim can eat
anything at Pizza Hut but the pepperoni.  The "ham" is extremely
Kosher or Halal as your taste may be.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2284)
To:      Saleem Shafi                           16 Jan 94 22:42:10
Subject: Church & State                         Sent 

SS>  It's not contradictory....  Covering a women is a human law
                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SS>  stated by Islam, and is not a religious practice...  If you
     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SS>  cover yourself, you don't become a Muslim...  However, by
SS>  fasting and praying five times a day, you are acting as a
SS>  Muslim...  Those are the things a Muslim government cannot
SS>  impose...

     How quickly we forget the junior grade mullah in Saudi
hitting a female soldier with a rod because she was not dressed
properly.  That boy is very fortunate she did not respond
according to her training.

SS>  BTW, a sari is not a Muslim dress...  It definately doesn't
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     No it is not because, as you note above, it is human not
Muslim law.

SS>  qualify as covering up when the stomach is very bare...
SS>  It's been somewhat associated with Islam because of the
SS>  culture in the Pakk that dresses like that...  And that is
SS>  no justification for such anti-Islamic behaviour.

     You appear to have confused yourself severely here.  The
sari is traditional Indian at best Hindu clothing and not all the
common to Paki women.  However, as it is human law, middle
eastern custom to be specific (see, Hassidic women) as has
nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * He knew the job was dangerous when he married her.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2285)
To:      Beetle Maniac                          16 Jan 94 22:51:10
Subject: CLINTON                                Sent 

BM> JC>      He cut the defense budget and passed his income tax
BM> JC> increase on rich folks.  He tried to get gays into the
BM> JC> military.  He came up with a health care proposal.  Now, I'm
BM> JC> not happy with his program, but he did do SOME of the things
BM> JC> he said he'd do.

BM>       Actually, he promised to end the ban on gays in the
BM>       military; there are, have been and always will be gays
BM>       in the military, so no one has to try to get them in.
BM>       What we want is to leep them from being kicked out
BM>       once they're in.

BM>       But Clinton didn't actually do what he promised he'd
BM>       do, i.e.  issue an Executive Order.  He backpedaled
BM>       furiously once he realized how much trouble he'd be in
BM>       in that case.

     Trouble?  What he originally promised included to
impeachable offenses, 1) stopping on-going prosecutions to
pursuant to the law and 2) stopping the enforcement of the law.
The Chief Executive is required by his office to do both.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2286)
To:      Lester Garrett                         16 Jan 94 22:54:10
Subject: Debate Echo                            Sent 

LG> [Area: DEBATE]  [Subj: A CANADIAN]

LG> In a message to Randy Britt, dated 08 Jan 94, Michael Pilon wrote:

LG>  MP> . . .Lester was taliking about expanding the echo to
LG>  MP> Australia and the UK. . .

LG>  By way of an update, I crashed a Netmail message to the ZEC
LG>  asking for information about pursuing overseas
LG>  distribution.  No answer.  I was going to follow up, but
LG>  have decided to wait a bit.  The current sudden increase in
LG>  daily mail has me a bit concerned having climbed from
LG>  around 90/day to an average of about 164/day over the 1st
LG>  14 days.

     I have not run numbers but I looking 202 messages today.  I
would suggest the average is around 150, nearly double a year
ago.  Real soon they are going to threaten to drop DEBATE from
the backbone as it is becoming to successful -- as they did
POLITICS.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * ClintonThink appears to be incurable.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2287)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jan 94 22:58:10
Subject: GUN CULTURE                            Sent 

     When you created your message it looked something like this.

MP> US          13.3
MP> Switzerland        1.4
MP> Germany            1
MP> Japan            .7
MP> Canada            2.5
MP> Hing Kong        1.7
MP> France            1.3
MP> Sweden            1.6
MP> Italy            3.6
MP> Australia        2.7
MP> Britain            1
MP> New Zealand        3.4
MP> Isreal            3.3
MP> Spain            1.2
MP> Bahamas            15.3
MP> South Korea        1.3
MP> Mexico            30,7
MP> Russia            16.3
MP> Hungary            3.7
MP> Brazil            29.4
MP> China            1
MP> India            5

     When I read it, it looked like this.

MP> US**13.3
MP> Switzerland**1.4
MP> Germany**1
MP> Japan**.7
MP> Canada**2.5
MP> Hing Kong**1.7
MP> France**1.3
MP> Sweden**1.6
MP> Italy**3.6
MP> Australia**2.7
MP> Britain**1
MP> New Zealand**3.4
MP> Isreal**3.3
MP> Spain**1.2
MP> Bahamas**15.3
MP> South Korea**1.3
MP> Mexico**30,7
MP> Russia**16.3
MP> Hungary**3.7
MP> Brazil**29.4
MP> China**1
MP> India**5

     except the asterisks were the TAB symbol.

     This is because your editor is not set to expand the TABS
into spaces.  This is another gambit by Bluewave to promote their
own software.  BW expands the TABs into spaces when reading
messages but most other readers to not.  I believe at the moment
they are sending TED along with their release however I know that
was originally configured to expand the tabs to spaces.  They
changed the release configuration of TED to make it a nuisance
for users of other OLRs.

     This is on top of the release configuration to insert a RE:
in front of every subject to deliberately screw up every other
OLR that tries to sort by topic.

     Whether or not all of this is boring to you or not is
another point.  Your effort in creating that table is being
screwed over by your editor.  You should at least change it for
that if no other reason.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * "We must have the courage to quit."  -- W. Clinton
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2288)
To:      Saleem Shafi                           16 Jan 94 23:11:10
Subject: I'll pass on that one                  Sent 

On 01/15/94 SALEEM SHAFI to ALEC GRYNSPAN on I'll pass on that one

SS>  AG>  Ahhhh! Then the pooling of capital for the purpose of
SS>  AG>  development is greed?!?!

SS>  AG>  LONG LIVE GREED!!!

SS>  AG>  Have you any better a life style than Homo Habilis, Saleem?

SS>  AG>  Then get back to the caves, Saleem - or admit living on the
SS>  AG>  "greed"

SS>  Interestingly enough, i'm leaning toward getting out of
SS>  this hell hole called society and follow in Thoreau's
SS>  footsteps..  Maybe go out into Africa find a nice patch of
SS>  jungle with a safe cave,

     Maybe you should look at the geology of Africa first.

and live without the problems of
SS>  fighting to get up the damn ladder, by throwing other
SS>  people off...

     Maybe you should try "roughing it" in your backyard first.

SS>  AG>  Are you more than 35 years old, Saleem? You're alive
SS>  AG>  because of the efforts of Capitalists.

SS>  No actually, I'm 15...  And I'm living because of the
SS>  'efforts' of capitalists, I'm living despite their
SS>  efforts...

     Capitalists have tried to kill you?  They stole your money
and only gave you a crummy computer in exchange?  Damned thieves.

SS>  SS>  I doubt you're a rotten neighbour...  You should work for
SS>  SS>  your money, but you should also give to those who don't
SS>  SS>  have a job, or can't work...  What's wrong with that...

SS>  AG> No - I "shouldn't".

SS>  AG> I have *NO* moral obligation to do so! No duty!

SS>  Hell, maybe you are a rotten neighbour...  Have you ever
SS>  heard of GOOD WILL FOR MANKIND...  and maybe SELFISHNESS
SS>  WiLL LEAVE YOU LONELY...

     Can you quote the Koran requiring that?  I thought not.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2289)
To:      All                                    16 Jan 94 21:05:10
Subject: Infrared, the now told st              Sent 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Infrared, the Now Told Story
                               by
                           Matt Giwer  (c) 1994

     "Waco:  The Untold Story" was shown on Prime Time Live shown 
on Thursday, 13 January 1994.  During that program there were 
three photos quickly flashed on the screen.  They were described 
as infrared photos taken by the government of three separated hot 
spots thus proving the Branch Davidians started the fires.
     There are problems with this.  
     The pictures were not on screen long enough for viewers to 
verify there were even hotspots.  The pictures did not appear to 
have a date/time group on them and as such would certainly not be 
admissible as evidence in court.  One has to ask upon what 
grounds we are to accept these pictures.
     The announcement that the fire was started by the people 
inside was made from Washington while the fire was still burning; 
about one half hour into the fire.  This was reported on CNN 
overlaying the live shots of the fire.  How did Washington know 
of the results and analysis of these pictures and prepare a press 
release within 30 minutes?
     We are also asked to believe there was a plane directly 
overhead and taking pictures exactly at the time the unexpected 
fire started.  Excuse me.  The three pictures showing we know not 
what were from the same perspective, so it must have been a 
helicopter.  
     The perspective was also from overhead rather from a slant 
angle so it was not a circling plane.  It would have been a 
stroke of blind luck to have that plane exactly overhead at 
exactly the right time doing exactly the right thing.  
     Let us look at a few alternatives.  It really was a 
helicopter rather than a plane as we were told on Nightline.  We 
can forgive a TV production crew that gaff.  
     We are still left with three still photos at exactly the 
right moment.  Perhaps they are out takes from a film.  That we 
can not forgive in a TV production crew, showing stills instead 
of a film clip.  
     We note further we have films from every network showing the 
first starting in exactly one place with the only question being 
how it spread so quickly.  The government now purports to tell us 
it started in three places at once.  It is noted the government 
has still show us one thing inconsistant with a the Branch 
Davidian statement that the tanks knocked over kerosene lamps.
     We know they were using bales of hay to block the windows 
from the light and noise at night.  We know in that dry part of 
the country that any wooden structure goes up like tinder even 
without dry hay to help spread the fire.
     Now we bring up the second ABC interview with the arson 
investigator where he affirmed his first interview of one fire 
starting point and added there were at least three, "in fact so 
many" before he refused further comment.
     There is no scenario putting these facts together save the 
story of the fire starting was prepared before the fire started.  
The pictures if they show anything are not inconsistant with the 
tanks knocking over kerosene lanterns.  
     We have a more serious problem explaining why pictures would 
happen to show three hot spots in the first place.  Infrared is 
merely heat, the same heat you feel in front of a high wattage 
lamp.  The only way to get an infrared image would be for the 
fires to have been started on the top floors, either second or 
third depending upon the part of the structure.
     This coincides with the films we have seen of the first 
smoke and fire coming from a second story window.  I am hard 
pressed to understand why people intending to burn themselves 
alive would start fires on the second floor.  However to show 
spots rather than a fire they would have had to burn through the 
ceiling of that second floor and started heating the roof itself.
     Perhaps only the first and largest was on the second floor.  
Perhaps but then those on the first floor would not show up on 
infrared as spots.  The fire would have to burn through the 
ceiling of the first floor, through the ceiling of the second 
floor, perhaps the ceiling of the third floor to directly heat 
the roof for there to be a hot spot there.  Before that would 
happen and under the conditions of weather and construction there 
would have been fire from at least three windows not just one.
     The timing of these fires is extraordinary.  Infrared is not 
X-rays.  The only way to show three hot spots is to have the 
undersides of the roofs at those points heating evenly at the 
same time.  Were there a burn through there would be a bloom on 
the picture no one could miss and processing would be required to 
show the rest.  It is the difference between a few hundred and a 
few thousand degrees; a flashlight and a searchlight.  It boggles 
the mind to believe three widely separated people could possibly 
have coordinated their fires such that they would NOT burn 
through but equally heat the roof at three distinct places.
     There is no evidence of three starting points for the fire 
that could possibly corroborate infrared photos of three hot 
spots unless ... and that unless is that the fires were all 
started in rooms on the highest floor of the building.  Again, 
this does not sound like people trying to burn themselves alive.  
Even in the most trivial scenario of self immolation it would be 
expected a fire would be started in front of every first floor 
door at least and window if possible.
     On top of this we have a common agreement by the government 
and the Branch Davidians that the stairwells had been collapsed 
by the tanks, the only difference of opinion is whether 
deliberately or incidentally.  Now we have to imagine people 
without the help of stairs getting to the highest floors to start 
these fires and then staying there or coming back down to await 
the fire reaching them.
     To my way of thinking, even the most insane people who might 
start such a fire would have second thoughts when the heat starts 
building up as the actual fire proceeds.  We have films of only 
one person leaving from a second floor window but that person 
appears to be in no hurry about leaving as he jumps down and 
slowly walks away.
     We have a different problem with those who decided to wait 
until the fire burned down to them.  The story goes that they 
all, including Koresh himself, shot each other in order to 
prevent each other from escaping.  Here we have at least three 
people starting three fires out of maybe 40 armed adults and then 
enough more discipline people to kill the others and then 
themselves.  Schwarzeneggar may be able to do such things but in 
reality we are talking no small group capable of pulling off such 
a thing.  We have to be thinking of at least ten people to kill 
the other thirty armed adults to have a chance of one of the ten 
being the last standing to kill himself.  
     Now for all this planning and organization to accomplish 
this we are offered three words from Koresh, in writing not tape, 
that could apply to anything from a cigarette to a lamp, to 
suggest Koresh ordered it all to happen.  I would sort of expect 
at least one "don't kill me" to be produced by the government.  
And to top it all we must remember Koresh shot himself to prevent 
himself from escaping.
     The more we learn about this incident the less reasonable it 
becomes.  When it was first assumed the claimed infrared pictures 
were from ground level it was easy to point out that was flat out 
impossible based solely upon physics.  Now we have a situation 
possible in physics but ornery as hell in explaining how 
something I would expect Hollywood special effects experts would 
have difficulty producing for infrared film without faking it.
     I suggest fake is the operative word for these pictures.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * "OK punks, do you feel lucky?" -- Clin?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2290)
To:      Jack Wilder                            16 Jan 94 23:17:10
Subject: Low blow answered                      Sent 

JW>  -=> Quoting Alec Grynspan@ to Matt Giwer <=-


JW>  MG>      And the Mossad used Pollard's information in bargaining
JW>  MG> with the KGB.
JW>  AG>
JW>  AG> And they bake baby blood into their passover matzoh?

JW>          C'mon Alec that is quite a stretch.  Just because
JW>    his information is poor, is no reason to castigate him so
JW>    severely.  I am a fan of Matt's in some areas, and I do
JW>    believe that his problem, is lack of information on
JW>    certain subjects, and not "knowing malice".  Besides baby
JW>    blood in matzoh's wouldn't be kosher.(:>*

     Where is it written?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2291)
To:      Jack Wilder                            16 Jan 94 16:56:10
Subject: pressure                               Sent 

JW>  JW>         Are you saying that he did not??

JW>  MG>  If you wish to start with the conclusion anyone who
JW>  MG>  disagrees is working for the government to suppress the
JW>  MG>  tape then there is nothing you are going to listen to.

JW>          I start with only one conclusion, and I only wish
JW>    that others do the same.  My conclusion that is obvious
JW>    by my post is that NOTHING can be taken for granted, and
JW>    EVERYTHING about the incident should be investigated.  As
JW>    far as agents going as far as logging on here and
JW>    distributing misinformation??  I know that I WOULD, and I
JW>    don't think that the persons involved are less committed,
JW>    or involved than I am, and to think that they have NOT is
JW>    to consider them stupid, and since I have a close
JW>    relative in the business I can ASSURE you that they are
JW>    NOT stupid.

     Then we are truly fortunate you are not with the government.

JW>  MG>  However you should have listened to the full FBI briefing
JW>  MG>  where they mentioned trying to explain what appeared to be
JW>  MG>  fire and were unable to do so.  They mentioned a thorough
JW>  MG>  examination of the equipment.  Now why would a question they
JW>  MG>  pursued and freely talked about need to be challenged?

JW>          I don't seem to remember the judge, and jury at
JW>    that briefing, and what someone will do when they are
JW>    talking for public consumption, and what they testify to
JW>    under oath are often VERY different things.

     You are truly the paranoid type.  You start with the
presumption that they are trying to suppress knowledge of the
fire, they would come on to the networks which in the only place
it is being discussed, and then they mention it on the largest
news network in the world.  Why do you think they would do that?


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * "A well-coiffed President is essental to a well run country.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2292)
To:      Michael Pilon                          16 Jan 94 23:22:10
Subject: PROOF OF GOD...                        Sent 

MP>  Hmmm no wonder Germans give me strange looks when I speak
MP>  to them when I meet tourists.  Welkommen sin in Das Kapital.
MP>  No high Marx for me.....  ( oh bad bad bad).  A few hours on
MP>  the canal tomorrow will cure me, going to -26c for a high
MP>  

     Try, Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?, or, Kusse here not kusse
here.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2293)
To:      David Frazer                           16 Jan 94 23:28:10
Subject: RUSH                                   Sent 

DF>  Any of you want to take up one of His points and see if
DF>  it's for real, I'm here.  I would not debate His position on
DF>  Chelsea Clinton's braces or Bill Clinton's mother, but
DF>  anything else is fair game.

     He has none.  You are thinking of Saturday Night Live.

There are only one or two ideas
DF>  presented on each of His shows, and He doesn't allow people
DF>  to respond who disagree with Him unless they're on Prozac
DF>  and can't defend themselves, so I have to deal with His
DF>  disciples.  But youall seem like an enthusastic lot.

     You do appear to represent the ignorant fools who think
there is anything Limbaugh says that is new or different.  You
have no perspective upon American political thought whatsoever.

     I would suggest you actually listen to a few of his shows to
learn what he is saying before you demonstrate your ignorance in
public.  That is not to say everyone is laughing at you, only
those who do know your description has no relation to reality.

     You are invited to demonstrate your case if you are able to
do so.  Please include dates and examples.

     BTW:  What do you do for a living that permits you to listen
to his radio show which is the only place he has callers?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2294)
To:      Saleem Shafi                           16 Jan 94 23:38:10
Subject: Sex                                    Sent 

SS>  TD>  Actually, like many men, whether Lester lusts after a girl
SS>  TD>  or not quite often has nothing to do with her makeup or
SS>  TD>  whether she wears it at all.

SS>  When a man lusts it's not because of the intelligence of a
SS>  women..  Or at least not most of the time...  Most of the
SS>  time it's the beauty or figure of a women that 'turns and
SS>  guy on'...

     By 16 and an half you should learn the body is not
everything no matter what you do.

SS>  TD>  What about if a man hasn't ever seen the girl at all?
SS>  TD>  Perhaps he's blind or, stretching the imagination here,
SS>  TD>  he's only talked to her over a BBS or a phone?  He's not
SS>  TD>  attracted to her by her makeup then, but by her mind...

SS>  A man can be attracted and not lust...  Lust, as I see it,
SS>  is an urge to have sex with someone...  Not to enjoy
SS>  company, or even to love...

     That is what hands are for.  Please do not tell me you do
not understand that.  Why do you think Allah gave you an
opposable thumb when your tongue could not reach like the
animals?  That is the real thing that separates us you realize.

SS>  That's really stretching it man....  No man I have known has
SS>  LUSTED over a women's mind...  they love, or they are
SS>  attracted, but they do not lust...

     Were it not for lust there would be no reason for love.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2295)
To:      Virginia Cramer                        16 Jan 94 23:34:10
Subject: Sex                                    Sent 

VC> -----=====< START QUOTE >=====-----
VC> >  What about if a man hasn't ever seen the girl at all?
VC> >  Perhaps he's blind or, stretching the imagination here,
VC> >  he's only talked to her over a BBS or a phone?  He's not
VC> >  attracted to her by her makeup then, but by her mind...

VC> ------=====< END QUOTE >=====------

VC>  Actually, your example isn't stretching the imagination all
VC>  that far.  I met my last boyfriend that way.  By the time
VC>  we first met in person, we were already in love.  We had
VC>  never seen each other nor did we have any mutual friends so
VC>  we started a relationship based solely on personality.  One
VC>  good thing about this type of relationship, you know your
VC>  partner likes you, not a person with your looks.

     Not to stretch the point either but my last two love affairs
started exactly that way; the first was love before even a
photograph was exchanged, the second didn't take more than a
first meeting to confirm what we both expected.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2296)
To:      Elaine Gallegos                        16 Jan 94 23:42:10
Subject: Smoking                                Sent 

EG>    Wise up!  Smoking is a dirty habit, and people aren't
EG>    willing to put up with

     Sanctimony is also a filthy habit and even fewer are willing
to put up with that habit.


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * Chelsea Clinton is worth a thousand condom commercials.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (2297)
To:      Bill Bauer                             16 Jan 94 23:43:10
Subject: Smoking                                Sent 

BB>  Non-smokers seldom stop to think that this same line of
BB>  thinking also applies to their group.  Many non-smokers have
BB>  habits that are also burdening society with costs of their
BB>  activities.

     Yeah.  Those damned non-smokers are bankrupting social
security.  Who in the hell are they to live forever?

BB>  Some of them drink to excess but do not smoke, use drugs
BB>  but do not smoke, have children (both in and out of
BB>  wedlock) and do many other socially disliked things and
BB>  also ask us all to foot the bills.

     Worthless people, the lot of them.  And I bet there are some
who are actually over the prescribed weight and actually to not
do aerobic exercise three times a week.  Bastards!


---
 * RM 1.2 01261 * Clinanon, a 12 Step program for Clinton Cultists.
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