The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_controv_9412


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+++■■■■■ r_941206 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (177)
To:      Patrick Humphrey                       30 Nov 94 21:08:00
Subject: A POLITE SOCIETY                       

PH>  AO> A guy named Muy Groso in Houston.

PH>  MG> David Dahlman

PH>  Post that in alt.rush-limbaugh and watch the knee-jerk 
PH>  response...:-)

     I don't have internet access at the moment.  He been there?


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           30 Nov 94 21:08:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LG>  LT>     If I was a "neo communist pig" I'd be all FOR 187.
LG>  LT>  Which is a racist document because it focusses on Mexicans.

LG>  MG> It focuses upon criminals in violation of federal law.

LG>           Now, now Matt.

LG>            You know Linda has been taught that these poor 
LG>            unfortunates are "victims."

     Anything can be justified as "for the children."

LG>            In reality, surely we deceived these poor victims 
LG>            into believing life in this country would be 
LG>            superior for them, thereby making them swim 
LG>            across the Rio Grande.

     Too bad it is illegal to import pirhana.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (179)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           30 Nov 94 21:11:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

LG>  MG>  If they had no daughters where did the human race come 
LG>  MG>  from? Please be specific.

LG>          The Bible says the wife came from the Land of 
LG>          Nod,,,,that is as specific as it gets.  As I told 
LG>          you, this is not a study in genealogy but God's 
LG>          plan of redemption of mankind.

     It does not.  It says Cain went to live there, nothing more.

LG>  MG>  Then the story of Adam and Eve is not the story of the 
LG>  MG>  creation of the human race as the fundies have been telling 
LG>  MG>  us.

LG>          It is the story of the creation and development of 
LG>          God's chosen people.

     Said chosen people were either from Abraham a reported 
thousand years or more years later.  

LG>  MG>  Where is it written?  They would have been as perfect as 
LG>  MG>  A&E before the "fall" and where are they in the world 
LG>  MG>  today?  You know, the sinless type of perfectly good and 
LG>  MG>  innocent people?

LG>          It is written in the Bible that there were giants 
LG>          on the face of the earth in pre-Adam and Eve days.  

     The giant reference comes AFTER A&E not before.  There is no 
reference to they pre-existing A&E.  Adding what you want to make 
it fit your ideas it not permitted.

LG>          If these  "other people" truly existed, why would 
LG>          they have to have been perfect.

     Why?  Where it is written?

LG>  MG>  There is no condemnation.  I simply consider it no better 
LG>  MG>  and no different from any other.

LG>          And I consider it to be the divine and comple word 
LG>          of God.

     WHERE is this word supporting your position written?

LG>          Is my opinion any less valid than yours?

     Your opinion only exists if you make up things to add to 
what is written.  

LG>  MG>  The plan which you have rejected by saying there were 
LG>  MG>  multiple creations of humans.

LG>          Why does that make me reject the Bible? In your 
LG>          dreams, maybe, but not in reality.

     You are claiming multiple creations by saying Cain's wife 
was from Nod.  Adding to what is in the Bible has a special 
penalty according to John the Divine.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (188)
To:      Bert Byfield                            1 Dec 94 01:06:00
Subject: HIROSHIMA                              

BB>  LT>    The Japanese would have *still* deserved to be nuked.

BB>  The idea that any group of innocent civilians "deserves" to 
BB>  be murdered is gross and sick and evil.  Seek help.

     Innocent civilians do not work in any manner that will 
support a war.  They even refuse to pay taxes and actively object 
to such wars.  Anything else is participation in the war.

     That they exposed their children to the danger is their 
problem.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (189)
To:      Scot Bear                               1 Dec 94 01:14:00
Subject: IQ:  DAY ONE                           

SB>  With an IQ of 132, 

     Is that all?

I would say that your blatherings about 
SB>  ONE book are tantanmount to the orgiastic ravings of 
SB>  Fundamentalists about the Bible.
SB> 
SB>  ONE book, Francisco...ONE BOOK does not substantiate 
SB>  anything unless it is PROVEN in subsequent studies.  
SB>  (witness: Lush Rimjob)

     One book covering literally hundreds of studies that all 
support the value of IQ as a predictor can hardly be discounted 
as one book. 

     If you should ever get around to reading it you will find it 
deals with every objection to using IQ as a measure and points 
out there are no studies to support those objections.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Children of Waco, I feel your pain.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (190)
To:      Mike Ringgold                           1 Dec 94 01:27:00
Subject: MATT GIWER                             

MR> JH> Isn't this the asshole who moderates FIDO TAGLINES?  I was 
MR> JH> tossed off that one a couple of years ago for suggesting he 
MR> JH> might be wound a bit tight!  ;-)

MR> Who is the moderator for this echo? What are the rules?

     If no one else has the courage to speak up, I'm the 
moderator.

     Will all other moderators please take one step forward?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (197)
To:      John Handorf                            1 Dec 94 04:24:00
Subject: CORRECT, POLITICALLY?                  

JH>  The dropping of "Atomic" bombs on Japan may not have been 
JH>  necessary as viewed  from the 1990's, but if you look back, 
JH>  we were scared out of our gords that  the Japanese were 
JH>  stronger than we even predicted.  The number of casaulties  
JH>  suffered from the island warfare was tremendous and the US 
JH>  govt.  needed a  weapon so devastating that it would leave 
JH>  NO choice for Japan than  unconditional surrender.  Was is 
JH>  "right"...maybe not.  Was it effective?...You bettcha!!!! I 
JH>  don't endorse the slaying of noncombatants but  at that 
JH>  time period they thought they had no choice.

     Tell it to Byfeld.  He is the fiction expert.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (198)
To:      Linda Terrell                           1 Dec 94 04:25:00
Subject: ETHICS AGAINST TOYS 4 TOT              

LT> MG>      It appears Clinton has fit the image of the Grinch.

LT>     No, it merely means the Marines are at fault for not 
LT>  getting clarification and/or dispensation to collect toys 
LT>  for tots.

     Do you have evidence they did not do so?  Please post it.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (199)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            1 Dec 94 04:25:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

LG>  MG>  When I make a claim I am willing to support it.  Now why do 
LG>  MG>  you not support your claims?

LG>             Willing, maybe.

LG>             But how about actually doing it.

LG>             You state God does not exist.

LG>             How do you know?

     I have never made that statement.

     I have said there is no evidence of its existence.

     You should learn to read.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.

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+++■■■■■ r_941207 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (112)
To:      Jim Higgins                            29 Nov 94 01:51:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

JH>  MG>  Person's born does not include their parents.  The parents 
JH>  MG>  are the targets.

JH>  So provide aid for the children, but require the parents to 
JH>  register in person to sign the child up for it, and require 
JH>  proof the child was born in the USA...  then deport the 
JH>  parents if they are illegally here.  As you suggest in 
JH>  another message, we can provide a free ride for the 
JH>  children if the parents do not want to leave them behind.

     Children adjudged adult enough to make a decision to stay in 
the US can of course stay as long as there is someone willing to 
support them.  Else they return with their parents as would 
happen in any rational society.  When they are old enough they 
can come back on their own.  That is the only rational way to 
treat the matter.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (113)
To:      Jim Higgins                            29 Nov 94 01:53:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

JH>  MG>  I am not certain from your wording just which side you are 
JH>  MG>  taking in this.  You may be in favor of 187 but more likely 
JH>  MG>  you are in favor of giving special privileges to federal 
JH>  MG>  felons.  There are 1.3 million such felons in California.
JH>  MG> 
JH>  MG>  I can not imagine you would support them in their felony.

JH>  Why not?  Assuming he does not live in CA (I can't read his 
JH>  state from his origin line) what does he have to lose?

     And of course he would support punishing no felons for their 
crimes as long as they have children who are citizens.  What kind 
of reasoning is this?  Even illegal is a euphemism.  They are 
criminals.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (114)
To:      Bert Byfield                           29 Nov 94 01:56:00
Subject: CHANGING HISTORY                       

BB>  MG>       Einstein was never known for his political or his 
BB>  MG>  military strategic ability.  If he were we might have had a 
BB>  MG>  peaceful world in 1950 rather than a Cold War.  Had he any 
BB>  MG>  other talents than the one idiot quote from him it might be 
BB>  MG>  different.

BB>  I TOLD you that you thought Einstein was just some ole guy 
BB>  with a pipe and no comb.  You have just demonstrated it.

     Rather I would point out that it was Einstein who got the 
US development of the bomb started.  Now if you are going to 
imagine he spent as many years studying warfare and international 
affairs (and expect anyone to believe you) then you can make any 
stupid claim you wish.  

BB>  MG>      Eisenhower you have clearly taken out of context.

BB> Not at all true.  That's why you quickly changed the subject
BB> without giving any details on your peculiar statement.

     Eisenhower was planning to use it on the equally "defeated" 
Germans.  

BB>  MG>       MacArthur was looking forward to leading that landing 
BB>  MG>  as he posed six times for his landing in the Philippines 
BB>  MG>  and his future presidential run.

BB>  Oh spare me.  You are so full of shit your eyes ought to be 
BB>  brown.

     It is agreed you are completely ignorant of WW II.  You have 
clearly established that.

BB>  MG>      Other than that, you have nothing.

BB>  Yep.  All I have is History and Truth.  You got faith.  I 
BB>  am helpless to tell you anything, with your set-in-concrete 
BB>  mind.

     You have only fiction on your side which you have held many 
times on this conference to be better than truth.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (115)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           29 Nov 94 02:05:00
Subject: CORRECT, POLITICALLY?                  

KP>  BB> Ours.  Buddha was on their side.

KP>  MG> You know nothing of the Japanese culture either.

KP>          Blurt doesn't understand that Buddha doesn't figure 
KP>  very prominently in the SHINTO religion! Blurt has had the 
KP>  uncanny ability to parade his near TOTAL ignorance of WW-2 
KP>  and Japan.  He doesn't know what the Code of Bushido is, he 
KP>  doesn't know what Religion there is in Japan, he doesn't 
KP>  know about Hirohito's speeches and memiors.  But he does 
KP>  have some VASTLY out of context quotes of three prominent 
KP>  Americans and a bunch of WAY left of center History 
KP>  Revision Professors he can lay on us.........   He has 
KP>  NO idea of how much of a clown he has made himself out to 
KP>  be.  If you note........  even his fellow travelers are too 
KP>  embarassed by his outburts to acknowledge him on this 
KP>  one..........  There he stands all alone still not realizing 
KP>  that his pants are down at his ankles....

     You could have stopped with, "Blurt doesn't understand" and 
saved some bandwidth.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Children of Waco, I feel your pain.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (116)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           29 Nov 94 02:07:00
Subject: DEATH IN HIROSHIMA                     

KP>        Matt - Blurt puts WW-2 through his trash compactor 
KP>  brain and everything comes out as garbage.  There is 
KP>  considerable evidence that Hirohito was more a symbol than 
KP>  an active leader.  Blurt keeps insisting he knows what Tojo 
KP>  and the Japanese cabinet thought.  He hasn't a clue.  His 
KP>  reading is extremely selective, certainly not using any 
KP>  JAPANESE sources.  

     He is only reading from those who are giving him the hidden 
truth to be revealed only to initiates.  All else is profane and 
not to be read.

KP>  BB>   Yes, but mankind does not fight with tooth and claw any 
KP>  BB>   more.

KP>  MG> What world are you living in?

KP>         Take the dipshit to Bosnia.....................

     He would run away too fast to learn anything.

KP>  BB>  These estimates were made when Japan was still strong.
KP>  BB>  Anyway, if high losses were still expected we could have
KP>  BB>  continued to bomb their industry and agriculture

KP>  MG> It is only a military genius who thinks one can bomb
KP>  MG> agriculture and who wants to starve millions death.

KP>          This is rich.  This is the guy howling about 
KP>  "humanity" and who would prefer the slow agonizing death of 
KP>  starvation to instant painless death.  Amazing!

     Have you considered dropping iron bombs on rice paddies?  

KP>  BB>   just surrendered.  The American professionals said -- need 
KP>  BB>   I quote them AGAIN? -- that Japan would have surrendered 
KP>  BB>   before the end of the war.

KP>  MG>  Technically you are correct here.  There does have to be 
KP>  MG>  surrender before the end of a war.  The good news it, they 
KP>  MG>  did.

KP>        Wait Matt - you fell for another of Blurt's traps.  
KP>  How can you surrender "BEFORE" the end of the war? Matt, 
KP>  the war ends WHEN you surrender! Not BEFORE!

     That is what I said.  He made another stupid statement that 
Japan would have surrendered before the end of the war.  Did he 
expect them to surrender AFTER the end of the war?  His words, 
not mine.

KP>  BB>  This is a worst case.  We could have waited until the
KP>  BB>  invasion was unopposed.

KP>  MG> Because they had all starved to death as you wanted.

KP>          Or maybe we "HUMANELY" bombed them with cluster 
KP>  bombs one Jap at a time! 

     We did not have cluster bombs at the time.  It would have 
been humane incendiaries.

KP>  BB>   Well maybe that's what you think, but the Allied military 
KP>  BB>   professionals said it would happen before the end of the 
KP>  BB>   year, probably much sooner.  Of course, you know better 
KP>  BB>   than those guys, right?

KP>  MG>  Cite the ones in charge of the planning that said exactly 
KP>  MG>  that.  At least provide MacArthur's specific statement to 
KP>  MG>  that effect.

KP>          Matt - remember that Dugout Doug was the SAME 
KP>  turkey who predicted that Chine "would NEVER enter the war 
KP>  in Korea!"  There are some who assert that the war in the 
KP>  Pacific could have been won sooner with someone OTHER than 
KP>  MacArthur at the head.

     Who lead the bloody slaughter
     While MacArthur walked on water

     The United States Marines!

     Actually Halsey was doing the winning.  After MacArthur 
landed his army after the Marines he landed.  Quite impressive 
and all that.

KP>  MG>  And do not forget to get around to citing the evidence 
KP>  MG>  there were negotiations for surrender and the terms that 
KP>  MG>  you claim Japan "almost" surrendered to.

KP>          Matt - his evidence was the quote from Donovan 
KP>  about some alleged "contacts" (gee how specific) from 
KP>  Japan.  This is the old Jap Naval Attache at the Japanese 
KP>  embassy in Switzerland.  AN ENSIGN! (Who was interviewed 
KP>  after war and admitted he was speaking for HIMSELF!)  
KP>  But Blurt thinks he is ON to something, as has ever 
KP>  half-baked lewt wing historical revisonist weenie in the 
KP>  past 50 years......  Care to guess how many doctoral thesii 
KP>  at Berkeley have been written on this by bearded wonders in 
KP>  sandals who have take one too many LSD tablets? Or 
KP>  Harvard?

     Why not let him provide the solid evidence?  Now that you 
have given him a hint as to what not to say, he will invent 
something else.  I am in the rope business and you are infringing 
up my hanging concession.

KP>  BB>  By Americans.  Many Japanese leaders were also executed for 
KP>  BB>   believing this fascist concept.

KP>  MG> Name them and the charges.

KP>          Matt - actually very few Japs were tried for war 
KP>  crimes, in SPITE of the FACT that they killed MANY more 
KP>  innocents than the Nazis.  They more than tripled Hitler's 
KP>  murders in China ALONE!  Blurt is the most TOTALLY ignorant 
KP>  opinionated asshole on the net! He has lots of opinions...  
KP>  Factually wrong....  But LOUD!

     It is MY concession.  I know that, you know that, but I want 
to see what he invents.  He has not had the sense to challenge 
two of the claims I dropped on him.  A debater he is not.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (117)
To:      All                                    29 Nov 94 03:42:00
Subject: CHARITY IS UNETHICAL                   

                      Charity is Unethical
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <11/29>

     This the time of Christmas where the spirit of man going
back thousands of years has found to be a time of giving gifts, a
time of universal brotherhood, and a time of peace.  This is a
time when you remember the true spirit of charity.
     And amongst this is an active prohibition against our
military from participating in it save on their own time.  I am
certain they will if they can get the leave time.  At the moment
no duty time can be put toward this ancient tradition.
     Rather our government has prohibited such things as Marine
Corp participation in Toys for Tots as unethical.  Not merely
prohibited.  Not merely frowned upon.  No.  Our government has to
hold it is unethical to ask for toys for needy children and do
the logistics for this charitable effort.
     Unethical is a very nasty term for professionals and our
military is a profession these days.  In what manner providing a
happy Christmas for poor children can be compared to a politician
buying a $300,000 a year retirement job with special interest
legislation is beyond me.  Converting stamps to cash is not only
unethical, it is criminal.  Collecting toys for children at
Christmas is now no better than Dan Rostenkowski.
     In the government's eyes perhaps there should be no charity
at Christmas, rather an entitlement program.  The parent gets an
interview, a form is filled out, if all the questions are
answered to qualify, "take this form to the third door on the
left and collect one toy.  Merry Christmas."
     Giving a gift is as much for the giver as the receiver.  It
is a time to put away the cold and callous part of life we find
we need the rest of the year to survive.  And we think we have it
hard.
     How would you like to spend eleven months a year developing
your skills not at being callous but at killing.  Is not it good
for them also to have a month's respite to use those same talents
in the time of the year that provides the greatest catharsis for
all of us?  I should not be pretending to speak for the Marines
but I am at a loss to find this unethical behavior.
     I am also at a loss to understand why government involvement
in direct person to person charity is unethical.  It is truly in
no way different from providing a military band and marchers for
a Fourth of July parade or are we to find next July that is also
unethical?  Where is it written that government helping the
deserving must be the same as the bureaucracy filling out forms
for the poor to get a toy?
     There is charity and there is the government.  And there is
no charity, there is no merit, in what the government does nor is
there merit in supporting what the government does.
     Decades ago when the poor could not afford their own
Christmas Tree with decorations that make children's eyes go wide
there was a tradition.  The one place in town that everyone could
get to by bus was the town square, the municipal building,
whatever it was called.  And on that spot was an act of charity
for the children of the poor and even their parents.  That was a
display of the symbols of their Christmas they could not afford.
     A brightly lighted tree beyond their dreams, a manger scene
for their ideals of Christmas.  There were traditions to be
passed to those who could not afford it for themselves.  Today we
prohibit this to the poor and to their children.
     Certainly in the name of isolation from religion we tell the
poor to just get in their cars and go look at something far off
of the public transportation routes and forget they have no cars.
Of course we still have the Christmas trees but there can be no
manger scene beneath it.
     Nor can poor Jews see a Menorrah display they could not
afford unless they have a car to get to it and if so they are not
poor.  The poor must be dealt with in a manner consistent with
the highest code of government conduct rather than as person to
person.  If compassion does not have a properly filled out form
it is prohibited.
     We are now in the final throws of assigning all human
emotion to the government and any other expressions of it being
prohibited by law.  Government charity that is not controlled by
law and bureaucracy is unethical.  I wish you all a Merry
Christmas.  And to all a good night.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * I am Ozyharriet, Family of Families

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (118)
To:      Ann Onstad                             29 Nov 94 07:10:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

AO>  MG> AO>  Well how do you feel about population control?

AO>  MG>      BTW:  I forgot
AO>  MG>
AO>  MG>      We Got Annie!

AO>  At least you know that Ann Ross and Ann Onstad aren't the 
AO>  same person.  Thank goodness someone does :)

     Only a fool can miss the difference between our Annie and 
Annimal.  

AO>  MG>       The issue is different than the terms in which it is 
AO>  MG>  painted.  You missed my posting on the use for closing 
AO>  MG>  military bases, a free choice, want welfare?  Go to a 
AO>  MG>  base.

AO>  I missed it.  Do you mean join the military or turn military 
AO>  bases into welfare camps?

     No, simply there is barracks style living and facilities and 
the like.  "for the children" does not mean the parent should 
have a separate apartment and the like at our expense.  They want 
housing and food, go to a military base type shelter.  It will be 
purely free choice.  There will be plenty of labor to make it 
work for them to earn money for anything beyond subsistence if 
they want.  

     If a barracks becomes a mess they are all kicked out unless 
cleaned up and any person making the mess it the responsibility 
of the barracks.  And anyone not liking the deal can leave at 
any time.  

     But the key is completely voluntary else live on the street 
with nothing from the gov.  

AO>  MG>  once they get passed entry level and learn so decent 
AO>  MG>  English they do behave like real Americans and go for the 
AO>  MG>  best jobs they can and usually have them.

AO>  I think it is fair if they are the best qualified.  A lot of 
AO>  times there are help wanted ads in the paper for people who 
AO>  can communicate in both Spanish and English.  Those are 
AO>  excellent positions for Mexicans.

     Fair, perhaps.  But they are still criminals.

AO>  MG>       My issue is different.  Back about six years when 
AO>  MG>  there was an amnesty for the illegals I encouraged to the 
AO>  MG>  point of threatening our illegals to apply.  I chose on the 
AO>  MG>  basis of being a good worker and a credit to this country.  
AO>  MG>  I would love to call them fellow Americans.

AO>  I thought many of them did apply.  There is an immigration 
AO>  office on Division street in Arlington and I would see 
AO>  lines there about that time of what appeared to be illegal 
AO>  aliens winding into the street waiting to get in there to 
AO>  take care of business.  I couldn't believe how many were 
AO>  there.

     And you can not believe how small a percentage that was.  
That is what I saw.  Very few wanted to even think about it much 
less do it even with the encouragement.

AO>  MG>       The problem is we can not make that distinction.  I 
AO>  MG>  would have no problem with a more complex criteria such as 
AO>  MG>  (don't quote me but get the idea) here for a while, no 
AO>  MG>  drain on the system, and making a living wage.  And the 
AO>  MG>  rest?  To Mexico and/or hell with them!

AO> I didn't understand this... Maybe you left some words out.

     Don't I always?  

     I was trying to say is that if they are not draining the 
system I would not have an issue.  Were they so require a some 
sort of certificate of "no welfare" then certainly they are paying 
an accepted share of the school system as they have to be paying 
rent some place.  But there is no obvious way to make that 
separation.  

     If paying then OK else IF sucking then get on the bus back 
home.  

     There is no obvious way to implement that save in the 
welfare vice the school system although the school system is 
simply one more way to find these criminals.

AO>  MG>       The problem being that federal law does no permit 
AO>  MG>  this.  It requires indiscriminant welfare and the like.  It 
AO>  MG>  permits no choice or decision as to the benefit of the 
AO>  MG>  person to the country.  It is an all or nothing position.  
AO>  MG>  I find that unacceptable but having to take a side I am on 
AO>  MG>  the side of chartering a lot of buses for Tiajuana.

AO>    I like the ideas of the governor of Michigan.  They had a 
AO>    story on CNN one day about how he dealt with welfare.  
AO>    People could not collect welfare in Michigan unless they 
AO>    did a certain amount of volunteer work.  The people who 
AO>    did the volunteer work eventually found jobs because of 
AO>    the contacts gained through volunteering.  I have a 
AO>    cousin who has been on welfare for 10 years.  She would 
AO>    probably give up her welfare check and go get a job 
AO>    rather than volunteer her time, or continue to leach off 
AO>    her mother.  I think something should be done about the 
AO>    welfare system.

     With any luck it will be ended or shaken up so badly it 
should get back in its hole in this coming year.  Despite the 
price tag, The Bell Curve is worth reading.  (Trick given by the 
authors, read the first two and last pages of each chapter to get 
the point.  I tested it.  That is correct.)

     The reasonable recommendations at the end would be in her 
favor and even in the favor or those hardest hit by the present 
system.  I am not saying I agree with all of them but they are 
seriously worth considering.     

=====
     
     And I expect you to have a belly-top computer for use in the 
delivery room.  I want no excuses for you being away again.  
Consider all the free time you will have after he (better be he) 
is born.  All you have to do is stop wasting your time sleeping.  
Mine is 19 and after 20 years I see the light at the end of the 
tunnel, I think.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (119)
To:      Wayne Jones                            29 Nov 94 08:28:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

WJ>  >                               ARTICLE XIV
WJ>  >          All persons  !!!!born or naturalized!!!! in the 
WJ>  >  United Staes, !!!!and!!!! subject to the juristiction 
WJ>  >  therof, are citizens of the United States and of the state 
WJ>  >  wherein they reside.  !!!!No state!!!! shall make or enforce 
WJ>  >  any law which shall abridge the privilage or immunities of 
WJ>  >  citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive 
WJ>  >  >>>>any person<<<< of life, liberty,..............

WJ>  WM> A damn illegal alien is not a native nor are the
WJ>  WM> naturalized citizens! They are criminals.

WJ>          So what is your point, are you going to deny now 
WJ>          that what I quoted was not the Amendment in 
WJ>          question.  You really are having a rough time 
WJ>          aren't you.

     That is one issue but criminals lose there civil rights by 
the fact of being criminals.  Ask OJ about his deprivation of 
liberty without being convicted much less tried.  

     I do not see the merit of your issue.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (120)
To:      Wayne Jones                            29 Nov 94 08:31:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

WJ>  LT>  If the 14th Amendment doesn't protect ALL PERSONS then we 
WJ>  LT>  can kill, rob and beat all non-citizens, can't we?

WJ>          As you can see, even in the portion of the 
WJ>          amendment I posted, it does protect the rights of 
WJ>          all.  Go to the words any person, it is one of the 
WJ>          few areas where after defining a citizen, it 
WJ>          doesn't start calling them as such.  Lawyers are 
WJ>          going to have a field day when the individual 
WJ>          challenges start creeping into the courts.

     The "rights" of criminals are not protected under the 14th 
else OJ would be walking the streets.  As to lawyers, they are 
already and there are not enough lawyers to eat up all the free 
government money to pay them to defend these criminals fighting 
deportation without having to present the slightest evidence of 
citizenship or right to be here before the oft postponed hearing.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (121)
To:      Wayne Jones                            29 Nov 94 08:35:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

WJ>          Oh contrare mon ami, most countries accept those 
WJ>          "born there" as citizens.  I for one was born in 
WJ>          Germany to Canadian parents in a British hospital.  
WJ>          I am considered to have dual citizenship, 
WJ>          German/Canadian, although I have never returned to 
WJ>          Germany, nor do I know a great deal about it.  Also 
WJ>          those born in Canada, regardless of thier parents 
WJ>          citizenship are considered Canadian.  The same is 
WJ>          true for most countries.

     I will pursue the validity of this claim.  Between the US 
and UK there is a requirement to renounce one way or the other 
around the age of 18 or shortly after that age.  I will add I 
have a cousin born in Germany of a German mother and never had 
German citizenship and never had to go through any renunciation 
process.  

     That and a reference on this subject to the only countries 
is as close as I can come at the moment.  I do know of several 
cases of citizenship in European countries where citizenship was 
a very difficult thing to obtain.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Get Janet a fiddle.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (122)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        29 Nov 94 08:46:00
Subject: CLINTON                                

BS>  In the past I've had similar polls from the Republican 
BS>  National Committee, but this is the first time from the 
BS>  Dems.
BS> 
BS>  I rated Clinton good to excellent, and joined the Dem 
BS>  Party.

     You been had and I can post the "gay military" daily 
activity from his first week in office if you wish and annotate 
it if you don't get it.  He did nothing of real interest that 
changed anything.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (123)
To:      Jim Higgins                            29 Nov 94 08:59:00
Subject: FACE ON AIDS                           

JH>  SB> The AIDS/HIV Echo.... Giwer`s been making a pest
JH>  SB> of himself in there, too! :)

JH> Probably been posting the facts... that generally does it.

     Precisely what happened.  It was improper to state there was 
no hope and that all treatment other than compassionate pain 
killers is a waste of money.  It is too hard for them to accept.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (124)
To:      Sol Steinberg                          29 Nov 94 16:00:00
Subject: OFFENDING PARTIES                      

SS>  It is very annoying to read people flaming and threatening 
SS>  each other.  If someone offends you, the best recourse is to 
SS>  put him/her in your twit filter and ignore them.  Dropping 
SS>  to their level is useless and merely encourages their 
SS>  nastiness.

     Try another conference.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (125)
To:      All                                    29 Nov 94 18:57:00
Subject: HOUSE QUEEN                            

 ##########  Original From: LESTER GARRETT
 # STOLEN #             To: ALL
 #  STUFF #    Date/Number: 11/25/94 - 0001118
 ##########             On: DOC'S - 0166 - Debate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  [Simultaneously posted to the FidoNet DEBATE and LEGAL_LAW Echoes]

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Congress Member Becomes Queen  AP-NY-11-24-94 1631EST          |
|                                                                 |
|    DETROIT (AP) - Lots of members of Congress are kingpins,     |
| or hope to be. But not too many have ever become part of a      |
| royal family.                                                   |
|                                                                 |
|    Barbara-Rose Collins has become a queen mother in the        |
| royal family of Pepease, a town in the West African country     |
| of Ghana.                                                       |
|                                                                 |
|    She plans to travel there next month for her coronation,     |
| telling constituents in a letter that the post was ``not        |
| merely an honorary position, but a genuine coronation with      |
| all the responsibilities and privileges afforded to royal       |
| family members.''                                               |
|                                                                 |
|    Collins, who was just elected to her third term in           |
| Congress, has a sister-in-law who was born in Pepease and is    |
| a princess there, said Collins' brother Lamar Richardson.       |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States:  and no
person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall,
without the consent of Congress, accept of any present, emolument,
office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince or
foreign state."  Article I, Sec. 9 No. 8.

 -={lsg}=-

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (126)
To:      All                                    29 Nov 94 19:10:00
Subject: TERM LIMITS                            

     Twelve year term limits.

     It is interesting that it takes men twelve years to cause 
the same amount of problems that a woman can in nine months.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Ye shall know them by their personal.dct.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (127)
To:      All                                    29 Nov 94 19:51:00
Subject: THE ANTI EVOLUTION GAME                

DP>         Type of Statement                                       Points

DP> Observation of spontaneous generation of a modern lifeform
DP> either from nothing or from nonliving elements.                  5

     I found this baloney sandwich under the computer desk.  It 
is worth 30 points by itself.

DP> Explanation of how totally independent dating methods agree
DP> so well if the dates they show are wrong.                        5

     It is an Illuminati Conspiracy.

DP> Evidence showing that all remains of Earth are younger than
DP> 1 million years.                                                 3

     If Congress had been around for more than a million years 
there would be nothing left.

DP> Example of total genetic discontinuity between two species
DP> considered closely related by conventional science.              2

     I know dozens of son's of bitches.

DP> Example of two species considered separated by over 100
DP> million years of time by conventional science found to           2
DP> be contemporaneous.

     Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

DP> Example of a fossil considered over 2 million years old by
DP> conventional science showing the exact same genetic makeup as
DP> a modern member of the same species.                             1

     Jesse Helms and ... hm.  You got me there.

DP> Correct statement of the theory of evolution.                    1

     No matter how much the world changes it never gets any 
better.

DP> Any other single statement showing you understand evolution.     1

     It is is for the better it is because Tom Pardue is a tough 
man.

DP> Any quote from secondary sources.                               -1

     Gould independently evolved a way to make an independent 
income from the subject.

DP> Any statement mischaracterizing evolution.                      -1

     Evolution is for nerds.

DP> Misunderstanding of the difference between theory and fact.     -2

     Creationists don't understand the theory and that's a fact.

DP> Misunderstanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.              -2

     The theory is perfect but the Patent Office is being too 
bureaucratic insisting that the model work.

DP> Misunderstanding of entropy, order, randomness or
DP> complexity.                                                     -2

     A good housekeeper is a witch as she can reverse entropy.

DP> Misunderstanding of the use of C-14 dating.                     -2

     I don't date Colored 14 year olds.

DP> Misunderstanding of isochron dating.                            -2

     You think I am a pervert?

DP> Misunderstanding of nuclear decay.                              -2

     The nuclear family has been decaying for decades.

DP> Misunderstanding of the speed of light.                         -2

     I am 6.5 nanoseconds tall.

DP> Appeal to supernatural entities. Such is outside the
DP> framework of science.                                           -2

     Supernatural entities are quite easily explained by chaos 
theory.

DP> Misquoting or distorting someone's statement.                   -3

     Gould once said, "evolution is not".

DP> Mischaracterizing a disagreement on the hows of evolution
DP> as doubt of the fact of evolution.                              -4

     Even where there are facts to fit anyhow?

DP> Appeal to your own ignorance "I don't see how else..."
DP> is a description of your personal inadequacy, not that
DP> of conventional science.                                        -4

     I don't see how there could be creation without a god.

DP> Outright lie. It doesn't matter if you didn't know it
DP> was a lie.                                                      -5

     Darwin was a finchophile.  In order to avoid prosecution he 
released his harem on the remote Galapagos Islands were they 
immediately began exhibiting all forms of human behavior as a 
result of those perverted unions.

DP> Use of argument already thoroughly refuted. You are
DP> responsible for looking these things up.                        -5

     Darwin was in seclusion to avoid arrest for twenty years 
cooking up an alibi should anyone else go to the Galapagos and 
discover evidence of his perversion.

DP> Appeal to moral consequences. That has no bearing on
DP> truth value.                                                    -5

     The evil of Darwin survives to this day in the unholy 
creatures that inhabit those islands.  Truly the wrath of god is 
upon these birds who try to act like other kinds.  Truly Darwin 
was cursed by god for his acts.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Jesus is coming!  Everybody preach something.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (128)
To:      All                                    29 Nov 94 21:36:00
Subject: NEWS THAT SHOULT NOT BE                

Washington Time 17 November 1994

Page one

Marines retreat from Toys for Tots

     President Clinton's ethics rules may change the Marines into 
Grinches this holiday season by forcing them to forgo some of 
their traditional activities in the annual Toys for Tots 
campaign.

     For the past 47 years, the Marine have ventured into 
communities at Christmastime seeking assistance in collecting, 
storing and transporting toys for needy children.  But no more.

     Under the new rules, active-duty Marines and reservists 
"won't be soliciting services or materials" in the toy collection 
drive, said Gunnery Sgt. Jim Martin, spokesman for the Marine 
Forces Reserve in New Orleans.
    
     "This is all the result of Inauguration Day, when President 
Clinton signed off on a new set of ethics regulations,: Sgt. 
Martin said.  "It's taken this long to tweak the nuts and bolts 
and find out how everything fits into it."

     Though the ethics rules don't bar Marines from asking for 
toys for the children, they do prevent them from transporting the 
toys in military vehicles and storing them government warehouses, 
the sergeant said.

     What's more, government computers will no longer be used to 
catalog items for the campaign, he said, adding that new Toys for 
Tots promotional materials will no longer feature Marines.

     "I respect the Marines' desire to follow the orders of their 
commander-in-chief, but it's unusual that, in the interest of 
ethics, you can't help out children at Christmas," Said Kristi 
Hamrick, spokeswoman for the Family Research Council.  "I hope 
this can be changed."

     The Standard News Radio Network previously reported the 
Marines' toy-drive changes.

     According to Capt. James Disney, another Marine Forces 
Reserve spokesman, the changes are in direct response to "Joint 
Department of Defense (DOD) Ethics Regulations," published in 
August.

     An internal Marine Corps memo said the "type and level of 
official Marine Corps participation in 'Toys for Tots' campaigns 
is now governed by a newly published DOD regulation, the 
Standards of Conduct.

     Some activities conducted by the Marines in the past as part 
of those campaigns "are no longer appropriate," the memo said.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 *               I don't call 911.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (129)
To:      Ann Onstad                             29 Nov 94 21:39:00
Subject: A POLITE SOCIETY                       

AO>  MG> AO> A guy named Muy Groso in Houston.
AO>  MG>
AO>  MG>      David Dahlman

AO> Whatever happened to him anyway?

     Five to life for flashing.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (130)
To:      Matthew Russotto                       29 Nov 94 21:53:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

MR>   MR>  It would, if there was a way they could legitimately become 
MR>   MR>  residents or citizens.  Since the US severely restricts 
MR>   MR>  legal immigration, it does not matter to me that they are 
MR>   MR>  illegals.

MR>   MG>  There is a legitimate method to become citizens.  It is 
MR>   MG>  written in our laws.  They have only to comply with those 
MR>   MG>  laws.

MR> Only a certain, small, number of people can immigrate each year.

     And?  Are you saying no government has the right to control 
immigration?  If not, what are you saying?

MR>   MG>  And if you are suggesting there should be no laws on 
MR>   MG>  immigration whatsoever they you need to defend that 
MR>   MG>  position.  Otherwise you are limited to an argument from 
MR>   MG>  degree of difficulty.  Would you like to attempt making it?

MR>  KIND of difficulty, actually.  The current immigration laws 
MR>  exclude people arbitrarily, 

     Then you know nothing of the immigration laws.  There are 
maximums set for various parts of the would and no limits 
whatsoever upon political refugees.  There is little in the way 
of economic requirements and what there are, are in terms of the 
country they come from thus an Indian need not demonstrate more 
wealth that a reasonable person would have under the customs of 
his country.  
     
     Additionally priority is given to family members of citizens 
in this country and that is in terms of the form of family in the 
country of origin usually meaning extended families not in 
current US terms.

     OK.  You said it was arbitrary.  Point out what you consider 
arbitrary.  Back it up with the Congressional debates on the 
immigration laws.

therefore I don't find fault in 
MR>  those who break the laws.  

     Whether or not you find fault with them for violating 
federal law does not change their status as criminals in 
violation of federal law.

If they excluded only those with 
MR>  contagious diseases, or who were known criminals, or some 
MR>  other reasonable criteria, I would find fault in those who 
MR>  break the laws.  I am unconvinced by claims that more 
MR>  immigrants support themselves here, because the illegals 
MR>  clearly DO support themselves here.

     When free clinics are half empty when they should be full 
after the law passes but before it is in force you know there are 
more than a couple not supporting themselves.  

     As for your being unconvinced, you are rather correct, see 
below.  They are taking good jobs from citizens who want them.  
And they are taking those jobs by violating federal law making 
them guilty of two violations of law.

MR>  At the same time, I also think that little accomodation 
MR>  should be made for immigrants -- no public bilingual 
MR>  education for their children, let them learn English: in 
MR>  fact require it as grounds for citizenship (I believe it 
MR>  actually is currently required).  No need for bilingual 
MR>  state services in general, except for in the criminal 
MR>  justice system.

     And also make them come in legally.  And if you have not 
noticed, the law is that there will be no accommodation for them.  
This law does not deport them.  It simply cuts them off from any 
and all non-emergency state services, services to which they have 
no right due to their status as criminals.

     The following is from: The Immigration Time Bomb.

     In *1979*  San Diego County study discovered that between
     13,000 and 25,000 illegal aliens were working in that area.
     Only about 8 percent of the aliens were working in
     agriculture.  Most held jobs in manufacturing, construction,
     retailing and service industries.  The same study found that
     many of the jobs held by illegal aliens were attractive to
     unemployed Americans, including 93 percent of the
     manufacturing jobs, 90 percent of the construction jobs, 71
     percent of service jobs, 69 percent of the retail jobs and 50
     percent of agricultural jobs.  At the time of the study, it
     was estimated that between 10,200 and 15,200 American workers
     were being displace by illegal aliens in San Diego County.

     The Urban Institute, in The Fourth Wave (1984), a study of the
     impact of Mexican immigration on conditions in the state of
     California concluded that:

          The majority of recent immigrants to Southern California,
          both Mexicans and others, are illegal aliens.

          Around 645,000 new jobs were created in Los Angeles
          County between 1970 and 1980. Over two-thirds of these
          jobs were taken by recent immigrants.  (And you wonder
          why the blacks in LA can't find work.)

          The presence of Mexican alien workers has reduced wages
          in low-skill occupations.

          State expenditures for public services used by Mexican
          aliens have not been offset by taxes paid by them.

     In April *1982* the INS conducted "Operation Jobs," a major
     effort that arrested thousands of illegal aliens on the job.
     Eighty-two plants in nine metropolitan areas were raided.  In
     the Chicago area, for example, illegals were discovered
     holding jobs that paid from $4.82 to more than $10 an hour.
     Aliens arrested at a Chicago construction site were earning
     $16.78 an hour.  Illegal aliens in Denver were found working
     on jobs paying over $12 an hour.  The average hourly wage paid
     apprehended illegals in San Francisco was $5.19.  "Operation
     Jobs" opened up some excellent jobs for unemployed American
     citizens and gave additional proof of the impact of illegal
     immigration on employment.

     Studies of the employment of illegal aliens in Houston,
     conducted by Rice University economist Donald Huddle, found
     that one-third of the workers in commercial construction in
     that city are illegal aliens, earning from $4.00 to $9.50 an
     hour - or up to $20,000 annually.  Dr. Huddle observed that
     "These wages debunk the commonly held notice that illegal
     aliens are taking only those jobs that American workers don't
     want because they are so lowly paid."



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Ruby Creek, Waco; the war has already begun.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (131)
To:      Scot Bear                              29 Nov 94 22:13:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

SB>  >       Person's born does not include their parents.  The 
SB>  >  parents are the targets.

SB>  Fine.  We'll send the parents back and then we'll have 
SB>  something to put in Gingrich's orpanages...  Sure...

     1)   It would be inhuman to separate children from their 
parents

     2)   Children not of the age of maturity to state their 
desires (18 for citizenship purposes) go with their parents


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (132)
To:      Scot Bear                              29 Nov 94 22:14:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

SB>  > TM> Do you propose that we imprison the children of felons?
SB>  >
SB>  >       In this case I propose putting them on the same bus to 
SB>  >  Mexico with their parents.

SB>  We can't do that, asshopper...  :)  The children ARE legal 
SB>  citizens...

     We can not separate children from their parents.  The 
parents have rights over their children, even if they are 
criminals, that law can not interfere with unless the parents 
violate some child protection law.  Learn the law some time.  I 
get tired of reciting principles to people who have not done 
their homework.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (133)
To:      Scot Bear                              29 Nov 94 22:16:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

SB>  >       It is only a matter of hiring enough busses.  And even
SB>  >  though the law is not being enforced they are already going 
SB>  >  back twice as fast as they are coming in.  So they are 
SB>  >  starting

SB>  Like I said before: "What about the children who ARE legal 
SB>  citizens?" We can't deport them.

     They go with the parents.  Learn the law.

SB>  While on the subject, what about the fatcats who are/were 
SB>  making big $$$$$$ on the adults? 

     Prosecute them also.

Do you think that they are 
SB>  going to settle for paying living wages to the rest of the 
SB>  people who are left? 

     If you had the sense to look at the data you would find they 
are paying the same wages they pay any other employee.  But you 
would rather pretend the stereotype is real rather than deal with 
reality.

I think not.  They'll only find a way 
SB>  to bring in MORE to replace the ones who got deported...

     Arrest the employers.  They and their workers are criminals.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * BATF Motto "Let God sort out the innocent!"

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (134)
To:      Scot Bear                              29 Nov 94 22:19:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

SB>  >       (My board has a problem with exporting netmail else I 
SB>  >  would have gotten to you earlier.)

SB>  Better get it fixed.  That's why Fido was created---Echomail 
SB>  messages are just "icing on the cake" as far as the Fido 
SB>  "gods" are concerned...  Every BBS MUST have NetMail 
SB>  capability...

     Golly.  An expert no less.  It does not have to be made 
available to users.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (135)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           29 Nov 94 22:20:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

KP>  KP>  LT> It's a moderately priced bridge called "compromise."

KP>  KP>          Linda pray tell....  just HOW does a woman
KP>  KP>  "COMPROMISE" with a predatory rapist/murderer?

KP>  MG> blow job?

KP>         Do you think it'd work?

     Worth a try.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (136)
To:      Thomas Blakely                         29 Nov 94 22:21:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

TB> MG>      I am not certain from your wording just which side you 
TB> MG> are taking in this.  You may be in favor of 187 but more 
TB> MG> likely you are in favor of giving special privileges to 
TB> MG> federal felons.  There are 1.3 million such felons in 
TB> MG> California.
TB> MG> 
TB> MG>      I can not imagine you would support them in their 
TB> MG>      felony.

TB>   I am opposed to prop 187, but, not for any humanitarian 
TB>   reasons.  My opposition, isn't to the philosophy behind 
TB>   187, my opposition, is to a piece of legislation that EVEN 
TB>   the people who wrote it knew would be VERY unlikely to 
TB>   stand any court challenge, and the long term results of 
TB>   that legislation.  In other words, my opposition, is based 
TB>   upon two practical concerns.  One, the inevitable results 
TB>   if it does, by some miracle, stand, and two, the 
TB>   foolishness of someone writing a piece of legislation that 
TB>   even THEY believe will be ruled unconstitutional.

     There is widespread misunderstanding on this matter.  There 
is only one other case in 1982 regarding a similar law in Texas.  
There was no 14th amendment finding.  The SC found only that 
Texas had not shown sufficient harm to warrant that degree of 
harm the law would cause.  I am certain California has more than 
sufficient documentation of the harm the law is causing the 
state.

TB>   If 187 stands, all it will do is create an underclass who 
TB>   live here, but do not pay taxes, 

     They do not pay income taxes now.

are not obligated to 
TB>   military service, 

     We have a volunteer military.

and contribute little if anything to the 
TB>   economy, 

     Now they are a drain upon the economy.

while still being supported by tax dollars 
TB>   themselves, in the forms of taxpayer financed emergency 
TB>   medical assistance, 

     ONLY emergency.

TB>   homeless shelters, 

     No.

protection by the 
TB>   police and fire departments, etc.  

     Nothing special.

In other words, a one 
TB>   way financial drain.  This drain on the treasury will 
TB>   increase, not decrease, both in the short, and long term.  
TB>   I'll give you one of the many inevitable results.

     You are suggesting the all the extra bilingual education 
costs, the full cost of education, regular medical services, 
welfare, AFDC and all the rest.

     And in any event, the ultimate objective is to get them 
shipped back to Mexico or drive them back as they will have 
nothing to gain from staying here as they will also be cut off 
from working.  So why do you expect them to want to stay?  Why 
are twice as many returning as are entering right now?

TB>   Since a direct correlation DOES exist between lack of 
TB>   education, and criminal activity, and since the numbers of 
TB>   people ineligible to recieve either Mexican or American 
TB>   citizenship will increase, 

     What in the hell are you talking about?  They are mainly 
Mexicans and as such have that citizenship.  And in any event 
once they are across the border it will be Mexico's problem.  
What Wilson needs to do now is pardon the illegals who are taking 
up 20% of the prison space and load them on buses to the border.  
Yes, it is legal.  Florida did it.

and since these children will 
TB>   not be allowed to attend school of any kind, well, you can 
TB>   see the obvious need for many, MANY prisons in 
TB>   California's future, at a HUGE cost.  

     Not at all.  The pardon and the bus seat can be automatic.  
That makes it Mexico's problem.

Both to build, and 
TB>   maintain.  And the number of prisons needed will continue 
TB>   to go up, until this policy is reversed, and quite 
TB>   probably for the next fifteen or so years after that 
TB>   happens as well.

     Ship them all south.  And for what it is worth BOTH crime 
and lack of education are centrally connected to the same fact, a 
lower population average IQ.

TB>   Always, always, ALWAYS remember that this law will not 
TB>   dissuade anyone desperate enough to try the border, and 
TB>   that the population of the planet is increasing.  

     That is why we need to start using M-16s to get the message 
across.  

If you 
TB>   just take it down to population escalation, the number of 
TB>   fence jumpers is going to increase NO MATTER what we do.  

     A shove the bodies back across the border as a message to 
the rest.  It will not stop it but it will slow it down 
drastically.

TB>   In addition, the number of children of illegal immigrants 
TB>   is also going to increase at the same, or greater, rate.  
TB>   These children won't be eligible for citizenship in 
TB>   Mexico, because there won't be ANY official birth records 
TB>   to base a citizenship decision on.  

     Tough shit.  That is the fault of their criminal parents.

After all, if you don't 
TB>   recognize the existance of the parents of the child, how 
TB>   are you going to prove that child was born of Mexican 
TB>   citizens? Take it a generation further, and you see that 
TB>   their children, will be citizens of no country, yet ALL of 
TB>   these people will continue to drain the economy and the 
TB>   public treasury, without returning A DIME.

     That is not only their problem but they can suffer their 
problem in Mexico.  Then them not return a peso to the treasury 
of Mexico instead.



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (137)
To:      Thomas Blakely                         29 Nov 94 22:49:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

TB>   Finally, in the opinion of many legal scholars, and even 
TB>   some of the people who wrote it, prop 187 conflicts not 
TB>   only with the Constitution, but previous Supreme Court 
TB>   rulings and Federal Laws as well.  On any ONE of these, 
TB>   invalidation is very likely, but against all three, it is 
TB>   all but assured.

     As above.  There are no "scholars" who would hold it 
disagrees with the previous decision.  Those who hold it 
conflicts with the 14th will have to hold these criminal 
non-citizens also have the right to vote.

TB>   It is, quite frankly, a silly piece of legislation.  

     It is scaring them away already.  Sounds great to me.

TB>   Created solely for political purposes, and MORE expensive 
TB>   than that which it seeks to replace.  

     That is because you have no idea of cost accounting nor of 
the final results of its implementation.

It would be 
TB>   difficult, but a better solution would be to create a much 
TB>   more vibrant and thriving economy in Mexico, with a good 
TB>   school system.  

     That is for Mexico to do, not us.  That they refuse to do so 
does not impose any obligation upon the US.

We were able to do the same with post 
TB>   World War II Europe and Asia, and look at the results 
TB>   today.  

     You also have no comprehension of what happened in Europe.

You don't see a lot of Germans or Japanese trying 
TB>   to sneak into the country to take .50 cent an hour jobs.  

     The average ten years ago, from INS study of those arrested, 
was over five dollars an hour as an average.  I would suggest you 
not try to pass of stereotypes as truth.

TB>   It was expensive, and took twenty years to start seeing 
TB>   results, but it did work.  And the result, and has been an 
TB>   even wealthier, more vibrant economy here in the States.

     Completely ignorant of events.

TB>   These reasons, are what my objections to Proposition 187 
TB>   are based on.  So far as I can tell, there's nothing 
TB>   UnRepublican about them.

     Your basis is not in reality unfortunately.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Ruby Creek, Waco; the war has already begun.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (138)
To:      Bert Byfield                           29 Nov 94 22:51:00
Subject: CORRECT, POLITICALLY?                  

BB>  MG>      You know nothing of the Japanese culture either.

BB> You pretend that *you* do?  Go fer it.

     Right, all the Bhuddists in Japan.  Way to go, pro!

BB>  MG> BB>  Yeah, but the civilians are not legal targets.
BB>  MG>
BB>  MG>      Cite the law.

BB>  Talk is cheap.  If I cite the law, will you change your 
BB>  opinion? 

     In other words you can not cite the law and you made up your 
claim civilians are not legal targets.  

     I am not surprised.  You have made up so much on this 
subject so far this is just one more added to the list.

It was not considered controversial when we 
BB>  executed Germans at Nuremberg nor Japanese in Japan for war 
BB>  crimes.  

     Cite the law.

We knew what it meant then, even guys like you.  
BB>  Murdering innocent civilians is a war crime, even for 
BB>  American soldiers.

     Cite the law else admit you made it up.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (139)
To:      Bert Byfield                           29 Nov 94 22:53:00
Subject: DEATH IN HIROSHIMA                     

BB>  MG> BB>  At Nuremberg many men were executed for having acted on
BB>  MG> BB>  this belief.
BB>  MG>
BB>  MG>      Name the men and the charges.

BB> Geez do you deny Nuremberg?????  You are worse off than I thought.

     Name the men and the charges else admit you made it up.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (140)
To:      Scot Bear                              29 Nov 94 22:56:00
Subject: FACE ON AIDS, PART 2                   

SB>  >       Rather it was the AIDS_HIV conference where moderator 
SB>  >  Bernard Saitz lied about my introducing the subject as a 
SB>  >  soul southing justification to ban me when others had cross 
SB>  >  posted the files.  Sainz is a liar and your are a liar.

SB> Speculation on your part, Mateo...

(2238)  Sat 22 Oct 94  6:13p
By: Bert Sainz
To: Matt Giwer
Re: Sampling, was Face on AID
St: Local
<2223
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:135/55@fidonet 938e5b64
@REPLY: 1:377/6@FIDONET.ORG a91200f8
@PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
 > BS>  >  examples.  I certainly agree what I am posting is anecdotal
 > BS>  >  as is everything I read here to the contrary and thus no
 > BS>  >  different.  I have not claimed anything more for what I
 > BS>  >  have posted than what I have said in them.

 > BS>  But you are supporting conclusions derived from limited
 > BS>  sampling.

 >      To try it another way.  I prefaced both articles with the
 > reminder that I was challenged to put a face on AIDS.  I was NOT
 > challenged to survey 100 people and present my results.  I then
 > went on to post the results I had gained in response to EXACTLY
 > that challenge.  Is this too hard to deal with?  I do not have
 > the original message but I do not doubt Tall Paul would confirm
 > that was exactly his challenge.

I don't know who challenged you or where. I do know it was not on 
this conference. Your first posting here was the Face on AIDS II 
                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
on September 18, 1994. Since that thread is now off topic here, 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you might want to continue it where you were challenged. I 
suspect that it started on AIDS/ARC since you were confused about 
who the moderators of this conference are.

=====

     Is this clear enough for you?  

SB>  However, in your case, you are a self-professed liar or do 
SB>  I have to trot out the (paraphrased) "OK, I admit it, I 
SB>  lied" admission that you so innocently posted a while back.  
SB>  In your case, "Know thyself" is justification for you to be 
SB>  sitting there with your tail between your legs instead of 
SB>  blindly making MORE false accusations.

     Can you read the above message?  Try again.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (141)
To:      Mike Ringgold                          29 Nov 94 23:01:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

MR> MG>      I regret you over estimated your own.  Moses was a 
MR> MG> fucking illiterate and there is no reason to believe he ever 
MR> MG> existed much less Hebrews in Egypt.  It is all a crock.

MR>  And it is easy to tell you are much smarter than those who 
MR>  wrote the Bible.

     Those who "wrote" it were the priests around 1000 BC as any 
serious bible scholar will tell you.  What does it take to be 
smarter than people in hereditary jobs?

     When you find one you might also ask them why written Hebrew 
is a variant upon Phoenician as is Greek that was introduced into 
the region around 1200 BC rather than Egyptian which you imply 
they had known for the 300+ years they were supposedly in Egypt.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (142)
To:      Ty Meissner                            29 Nov 94 23:44:00
Subject: FINDING                                

TM>          If John Brisette truly loved his children he would 
TM>          not subject them to harmfull drugs, specifically 
TM>          tobacco.

     Discussing the fraudulent science you are expressing does 
not belong in this conference.  Want to try Controversy?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (143)
To:      James Alexander                        29 Nov 94 23:45:00
Subject: FINDING                                

JA>  Matt, I hate to sound unsympathetic, but you haven't been 
JA>  told that you cannot see your daughter.  The order only 
JA>  says that you cannot use tobacco products in her presence, 
JA>  and that you have to avoid exposing her to others who use 
JA>  tobacco products.
JA> 
JA>  Considering the dangers of second-hand smoke, and the 
JA>  impressions of tobacco use on your daughter, what is so 
JA>  unreasonable about this order?

     The issue is that there is no such evidence, that fraudulent 
science is now being imposed upon people by the courts.  
Certainly were he to do something like smoke that would do no 
harm to the child he would risk visitation.

     It is no different that the court ordering him to not to let 
her open an umbrella in the house because it is bad luck.  

     But again, the reason this is a fraud is not suitable for 
this conference.  How about Controversy?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (144)
To:      All                                    30 Nov 94 01:12:00
Subject: THE BELL CURVE                         

     Having gotten much of "The Bell Curve" second hand I have 
recently had enough time to get into it in enough detail to 
comment upon it.

     The purpose of the book is not to make the case of race and 
IQ, rather it is to make the case of IQ as a predictor of what we 
as a society consider to be what is good for people and society.  
That it happens that when it comes to people that the best 
predictor is their race is a consequence of the studies not the 
purpose of them.

     The book book contains chapters are grouped by general areas 
of interest such as education success and job success.  Within 
these groupings you will find most everything of social interest 
in this country.  

     Each chapter includes [NOTE CAREFULLY] the arguments in each 
case that have been used to say that IQ is not relevant to the 
subject.  In each case the argument is more than adequately 
refuted.  The most common refutation is simply to show the 
results of a study that attempted to support the refutation and 
to find that it not support the refutation. 

     And in each chapter the case is made by reference to actual 
studies and their results.  In these chapters there is no 
question that the case is made for the value of a measure of IQ 
as the best predictor of accomplishment in any area.  One could 
call it the definitive work on the subject.  It is also shown 
conclusively that there is no rational basis to detract from the 
use of IQ as a measure.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (145)
To:      All                                    30 Nov 94 02:38:00
Subject: THE FIRST GENETALIA                    

     A close friend of Paula Jones has let the secret out.  The 
unusual feature of The President's genitalia is that he has no 
balls.  When asked, troops returning from Somalia said they were 
not surprised in the least.

     Issuing a statement, Hillary Clinton emphatically denied 
allegations she was in possession of the First Balls.  She 
stated, "I wouldn't have those shriveled little things in my 
sight.  You wonder where Chelsea got her looks?"  

     In a related story the First Cat was rushed to a 
veterinarian today.  Word is it was something Socks ate that was 
soked in formaldyhide.

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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Resistance to the EPA is obedience to God.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Linda Terrell                          30 Nov 94 04:15:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LT> WM>  Who said anything about killing them.  Just run the greazy 
LT> WM>  basterds out of the country.

LT>     You didn't READ the post.  If the 14th Amendment -- 
LT>  indeed, the Constitution -- doesn't apply to illegals then 
LT>  we can kill, beat, rob and rape them with impunity, can't 
LT>  we?

     So you agree they have only equal protection but not equal 
rights under the law.  It is about time.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (147)
To:      Katherine Fatherley                    30 Nov 94 04:16:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

KF>       Question: Is an illegal alien a born or naturalized 
KF>                 citizen of the United States? Answer: No.
KF> 
KF>                 Congress relaxed border security.  Congress 
KF>                 can and should tighten it up.

     And Congress should take actions to start kicking these 
criminals out.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (148)
To:      Linda Terrell                          30 Nov 94 04:21:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LT>    Oh gosh, they are such hardened criminals.  Let the crack 
LT>  dealers and drive by shootiists go and put the *real* 
LT>  criminals in jail in their place.

     Hardened or not, you are defending criminals.  I did not 
expect it of you.


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+++■■■■■ r_941209 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (279)
To:      Chris Walden                            1 Dec 94 22:39:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

CW>  MG>  There is a legitimate method to become citizens.  It is 
CW>  MG>  written in our laws.  They have only to comply with those 
CW>  MG>  laws.

CW>   And when those bastard's start marching around California 
CW>   with a Mexican flag, demanding rights, they have just told 
CW>   us that they for the most part don't give a damn about the 
CW>   United States to begin with.

     And the National Guard was not called out to warn them.  
Quite a pity.

CW>  MG>  And if you are suggesting there should be no laws on 
CW>  MG>  immigration whatsoever they you need to defend that 
CW>  MG>  position.

CW>        I'm just waiting on the UN to step in and dictate to 
CW>   us that 187 goes against the Charter.

     If they are half as effective as they were in Bosnia...


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (280)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         1 Dec 94 22:43:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

BS>  Lee is showing himself to be a heretic, betraying his own 
BS>  fundamentalist religion and its belief in strict literalism 
BS>  and creationism.
BS> 
BS>  Lee is orthodox only in the doctrines of hatred.

     As with all fundies, the bible is only literal when and 
where they want it to be.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (281)
To:      Jim Higgins                             1 Dec 94 22:44:00
Subject: PART TWO PROBLEMS                      

JH>  Like I said, I don't know how FIDO software works.  If each 
JH>  message has a unique ID it seems some BBS down stream is 
JH>  running software which ignores this and only compares 
JH>  origin dates/times and maybe a part of the title to 
JH>  determine dupes.  Maybe someone with a point or BBS farther 
JH>  on can provide SEEN BYs.

     I haven't done it myself either.  I have only been thinking 
of starting a board for about eight years now so I am still in 
the procrastination phase.  In any event the right way to do it 
is to do a 32 bit CRC check on every message and eliminate dupes 
that way.  

     The boards themselves have line limits.  Originally it was 
90, today mostly 150 and some few at 200.  

     If you check the number of lines of mine that do get through 
you will find there are 90 lines.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (290)
To:      All                                     2 Dec 94 05:14:00
Subject: THE BELL CURVE                         

     One of the thrusts of The Bell Curve is the rise of the 
cognitive elite.  God, that's a nasty term, they could have done 
better.

     Here is what they are talking about.  (They, yes, one of the 
author's escaped the coming firestorm over the book in the 
grave.)
     
     In most of history society was stratified in some manner.  
Be it master / slave, nobility / middle class / peasant, even no 
middle class these lines were rarely crossed.  And as a sidebar, 
when they were they were prosperous periods in human history.

     As IQ distribution follows the standard bell curve in any 
non-mating population.  Thus there were genius slaves and genius 
kings in about equal proportion.  We did not hear of the genius 
slaves as they were limited in education and the like and 
certainly limited in access to the opportunity to demonstrate 
their brilliance.  

     These limitations did not always hold down the slaves as 
demonstrated by more than one slave revolt such as Spartacus.  
Peasants arose such as Joan of Arc. 

     On the other hand the lack of limitations on kings gave them 
adequate opportunity to demonstrate there were as many stupid 
kings as stupid slaves.  History is a chronicle of their 
disasters.  

     When there was a revolution it was lead by the brightest of 
the lower classes against the average of the upper hereditary 
classes and for a short period of time the intelligent made 
something of the country.  After a while the bell curve 
established itself again and they became the mediocre average.

     Before the "heresy" in the south of France was put down a 
few centuries ago marrying across classes was acceptable based 
upon merit.  It was considered an aspect of chivalry to promote 
upon merit rather than upon "bell curve" birth.  The south 
prospered until conquered by the north and the rigid class 
structure was imposed.  (The south was overwhelmed by manpower 
and the north took very disproportionate losses to win.)

     Today we have, clearly shown by IQ results, that the average 
person, no matter what the circumstances of birth or conditions 
of life will rise to the average station is society of his IQ 
group.  

     There is a little statistics in there.  What it means is 
that in feudal days there were genius peasants, middle class and 
nobility and, although society was uniformly mediocre at all 
levels, there was a normal human social distribution at all 
levels.

     If a dumb peasant had a problem he could take a chicken to 
his neighbor the bright peasant and get an answer to his problem.  
The king who was smart enough to know there were smarter nobility 
could grant a powerful office and get good and wise counsel.
     
     Today the smart kid born in the slum grew up and moved to 
the suburbs years ago.  There is no one for the dumb kid born in 
the slum to learn from.  The child of the business tycoon may 
inherit some money but he is most likely to lose it faster than 
his father earned it.  And after losing it, there is an empty 
apartment in the slum for him to live in.

     This "cognitive elite" is a separation of the population not 
only upon lines of intelligence but upon lines of communication, 
jobs, meeting places, living places, everything.  There are very, 
very few places where these people meet and even so even fewer 
where they can effectively interact.  Middle class folks can be 
good neighbors regardless of IQ and respect each other for it and 
help each other for what they know and can do for each other.  

     But when the brighter is rewarded by better paying jobs and 
other opportunities he is not going to be in a middle class 
neighborhood very long.  

     And that is what is happening today that the authors are 
trying to point out.  Given our open society we are naturally 
creating without any outside force or forces a meritocracy.  And 
the characteristics of that meritocracy are effective isolation 
by IQ.

     A consequence of this has been noted for years in the 
collapse of the inner city.  What really caused it?  Probably 
more the legal end to discrimination than the start of welfare.  
As soon as the intelligent blacks were able to get better jobs 
and leave they were history.  And that left the black 
neighborhoods with only those who could not get out to be the 
neighborhood.  Imagine your neighborhood fifteen points dumber.

     And other than neighborhood and communication and the like 
is there another reason for this separation?  Consider the person 
with the 130 IQ views the person with the 100 IQ in the same 
manner as the person with the 100 IQ views the person with the 70 
IQ.  Imagine how the person with the 160 or the 190 IQ views the 
average person with the 100 IQ.  
     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (302)
To:      All                                     2 Dec 94 15:58:00
Subject: WHY IS IT DIFFERENT NOW?               

     Speaking of word eating.

     In 1992 Dems were claiming the pre-election increase in the 
economy as demonstrated by over 4% in the quarter in which 
Clinton was nominated, was because of Clinton.

     It happened again.  This time it must be due to the 
Republican victory.  Right?  If not, why is it different two 
years later?     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (465)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            2 Dec 94 21:06:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LG>  LG> ... UFO's.. Do they exist?  Inquiring Taxpayers want to Know!

LG>  MG> They took one of ours and left us with one of their's.

LG>           Is this the one Hillary mentioned on CNN today 
LG>           that she might be giving birth to?

     No.  It was Chelsea.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Today Waco.  Gestern USA.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (466)
To:      Bert Byfield                            2 Dec 94 21:06:00
Subject: DEATH IN HIROSHIMA                     

BB>  MG>       They are the people you say were so ungodly stupid as 
BB>  MG>  to not know they had lost and kept on fighting.  You are 
BB>  MG>  the one calling them idiots.

BB>  Oh, the militarists.  You think Hiroshima was a militarist 
BB>  hideout or something?  Get a clue.

     And you are claiming there were absolutely no munitions 
plants, nothing supporting the war at all in the city?  I know 
what was in the city, people too stupid to leave when the 
leaflets told them to leave.

BB>  MG> You are making the fascist mistake of
BB>  MG> BB>  thinking that all people of a given race are
BB>  MG> BB>  interchangeable.

BB>  MG>      Fascists are marxists, fool.

BB>  Marxists are fascists, but fascists are not necessarily 
BB>  Marxists.  Back to Logic 101 with you!

     The Fascists said they were.  But then, what did they know 
compared to you.

BB>  MG> BB>  Just like the liberal fascists do.

BB>  MG>      There are no other kind, fool.

BB>  Oh, yes, there are.  Fascists like Willie and you are not 
BB>  Marxists.

     Look up the definition and you will learn what you are 
talking about.  Until you do you are merely exposing your 
ignorance.  As you have no references available, try this one.

MG>  Ahhh...  By chance that he may read this message I shall 
MG>  enlighten him with a definition.  (May he please take note 
MG>  of the differences between both liberal communism and 
MG>  fascism - please note that the REAL difference between the 
MG>  two lies in private ownership - which ultimately makes no 
MG>  difference at all).  

MG>   "The main characteristic of socialism (and of communism) 
MG>  is public ownership of the means of production, and, 
MG>  therefore, the abolition of private property.  The right to 
MG>  property is the right of use and disposal.  Under fascism, 
MG>  men retain the semblance or pretense of private property, 
MG>  but the government holds total power over its use and 
MG>  disposal...
MG> 
MG>   Under fascism, citizens retain the responsibilities of 
MG>  owning property, without freedom to act and without any of 
MG>  the advantages of ownership.  Under socialism, government 
MG>  officials acquire all the advantages of ownership, without 
MG>  any of the responsibilities, since they do not hold title 
MG>  to the property, but merely the right to use it -- at least 
MG>  until the next purge.  In either case, the government 
MG>  officials hold the economic, political, and legal power of 
MG>  life or death over citizens...
MG> 
MG>   Under BOTH systems, sacrifice is invoked as a magic, 
MG>  omnipotent solution in any crisis -- and the "public good" 
MG>  is the altar on which victims are immolated."

BB>  MG>       They were the people who did not rise up in rebellion 
BB>  MG>  against that attack and thus supported it.

BB>  Like the Americans who did not rise up in rebellion against 
BB>  the criminal war against Viet Nam?  

     I do not agree with this kind of garbage either you 
anti-american puke.

So you think America 
BB>  deserves murder and destruction, similarly?  

     I think you are a very deluded fool.

You and 
BB>  Charlie Manson would not find much to disagree about.

     He had delusions also.

BB>  MG>       Tough shit.  What did they do to stop it?  Nothing.  
BB>  MG>  They approved, period.

BB>  Mi Lai, similarly?  Why should Rusty Calley take the blame 
BB>  by himself.  Evil America sent him, right?

     I remember Calley doing hard time for his actions.  What do 
you remember?  Anything?

BB>  MG>       Sure there was.  There was an entire generation 
BB>  MG>  between the start of Japan's murderous war of conquest in 
BB>  MG>  the Pacific and Hiroshima.  There was plenty of opportunity 
BB>  MG>  to overthrow their government over such murders and 
BB>  MG>  injustice.  Later they had to pay for their compliance.

BB>  Geez, such ignorance.  Visit your local library.  Find out 
BB>  what happened to the many Japanese pacifists or other 
BB>  opposition to the militarists.

     Who gives a rat's ass what happened to them?  They were 
going to die anyway.  Murdered by their own people or killed by 
us.  They made the choice to save their own cowardly skins and 
supported the war.  That made the choice.  What did they expect?  
A reward for being a silent pacifist who supported the war?

BB>  MG>       If the mother's did not want to risk their children 
BB>  MG>  they should not have conceived them.  The dead kids are the 
BB>  MG>  fault of the mother's having them.

BB> That is really sick.  I expected more from you, for some reason.

     I find your lack of reason and acceptance of the 
consequences for personal actions and decisions most interesting, 
not surprising, merely interesting.

BB>  MG>       Actually only you look funny to me for supporting the 
BB>  MG>  attack on Pearl Harbor and all the civilian deaths that 
BB>  MG>  included.  But

BB>  You are stooping low, now.  I have never done this.  Why do 
BB>  you say I have?  Are you that desperate to score a few 
BB>  points in your stupid cause of protecting a myth from 
BB>  Truth?

     You support the attack on Pearl Harbor, an attack upon 
non-combatants in peace time even if in uniform, by denying the 
Japanese should be held accountable for their actions.  

BB>  MG>  then, you do not care, you love the Japanese war machine 
BB>  MG>  you bloody bastard.  You sound ready to worship the new 
BB>  MG>  Hirohito as soon as you get the chance.

BB>  Go ahead, call me a Jap-lover.  That's the best you 
BB>  fascists can do, shit like that.  Go for it you dumb nazi 
BB>  dork.

     You love the Japanese war machine.  You love the idea of 
killing non-combatant sailors, drowning them in the hulls of 
sinking ships.  To you that is just a grand form of warfare.  



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (467)
To:      Bert Byfield                            2 Dec 94 21:52:00
Subject: DEATH IN HIROSHIMA                     

BB>  MG>       And don't worry.  All the while your feeble little 
BB>  MG>  mind worships him, just like your fellow Japs did, he will 
BB>  MG>  lead you to death just like he lead them.  I do not 
BB>  MG>  understand how you can be so stupid as to worship a man any 
BB>  MG>  more than I can understand how your fellow Japs were so 
BB>  MG>  primitive, benighted and stupid.

BB> Your stupid tribalist fascist murderous soul is showing.

     You are the one supporting the Japanese war machine, not me.  
You find they did nothing wrong.

BB>  MG>      You primitives disgust me.

BB> Yet another case of the pot calling the kettle a nigger.

     Are you suggesting there is a similarity here?

BB>  MG>       I said you were ignorant, there is no reason to 
BB>  MG>       confirm it.

BB>  Your word is the voice of ABSOLUTE TRUTH, you mean?  You 
BB>  wish.

     I have never claimed absolute truth.  But I have not claimed 
Japanese were Bhuddists nor that the US entered the war in D-Day.  
You obvious have more to learn than you can imagine.

BB>  MG>  interested in reading them.  In what book can we find the 
BB>  MG>  ver batim transcript and copies of the written proposals?  
BB>  MG>  Be VERY specific.

BB>  No such text exists today.  It was all carried on by 
BB>  diplomats and our own spy boss, Donnovan.  The above is a 
BB>  cheap trick, as you follow in the steps of your 
BB>  intellectual leader Ken Pangborn, shouting for "proof" 
BB>  knowing you are lying, knowing you are wrong, knowing you 
BB>  are siding with the murderers.

     Very good.  Now you are having spies negotiating treaties.  
And conveniently they destroyed all copies, even the copies given 
the Japanese.  

     As I said you have more to learn than you can imagine.

BB>  MG>       As you know and I know, they do not exist.  Why do you 
BB>  MG>  continue to lie?

BB>  I never said any such documents nor photos nor oil 
BB>  paintings nor tape recordings and so on, existed.  So where 
BB>  is the lie?

     The lie is that you knew the contents of what does not 
exist.  Sorry, I forgot, the spies doing the negotiations 
memorized it all and published it somewhere.  They didn't 
publish it?  Then just what is the source of the knowledge of the 
contents of these peace proposals?  

BB>  MG>       But you believe only in fiction for your sources.  You 
BB>  MG>  are as primitive as the Japs you love and you emperor.

BB>  You give away your desperation when, like that 
BB>  knuckle-dragger Pangborn you start with the Jap-lover 
BB>  invective.  Smart people know what you are up to.  The dumb 
BB>  ones won't remember what you said anyway.

     When you admit there are no source documents for what you 
claim to know the contents of you are getting rather desperate.

BB>  MG> BB>   Two wrongs do not make a right.

BB>  MG>       Ah, I am impressed by the depth of your understanding 
BB>  MG>  of the human condition.

BB> No, you aren't.  You don't even grasp the above concept.

     How about, Two Byfelds don't make a white?

BB>  MG> BB> Which is okay if they are Japanese kids, right?

BB>  MG>       Their parents attacked and refused to surrender and 
BB>  MG>  were too damn stupid to leave the cities when warned.  
BB>  MG>  Perhaps that is why they have a higher IQ.  The bombings 
BB>  MG>  killed off all the dumb ones.

BB>  I forgot for a while that you are a nazi just like Willie.  
BB>  You fooled me for a while by talking as if you had an 
BB>  independent mind.  But now you have exposed that dismal 
BB>  swamp.

     Then you explain why they were too stupid to leave the city 
even though they had been warned by the US to do so.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (468)
To:      Chris Walden                            2 Dec 94 21:52:00
Subject: DEATH IN NAGASAKI                      

CW>   In regards to your message to me, regarding what my point 
CW>   was where I questioned if Hitler would've attacked Japan 
CW>   (Lost Mail Packet):
CW> 
CW>       Had you read the entire message, it was stated by the 
CW>   person that I had engaged in conversation with that the 
CW>   Empire of Japan and Adolf Hitler had already planned out 
CW>   who would get what sections of our country when the United 
CW>   States was defeated.  Japan was to take the Western part 
CW>   from the Mississippi River and Germany would take the 
CW>   Eastern half.  I was merely making a statement that such 
CW>   would not have occured because Hitler would've waged war 
CW>   with Japan before it was all over with.

     As I remember I said Germany would attack Japan.

     I call your attention to the treaty between Russian and 
Germany to partition Poland.  

     Although it is in question who started that part of the war, 
Germany or Russia, it is unlikely that peace would have lasted 
for very long or that it might ever have broken out.

CW>      Still arrogant as all hell, eh Matt?

     Still right as ever.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (469)
To:      Bert Byfield                            2 Dec 94 21:58:00
Subject: HIROSHIMA                              

BB>  MG>       I see.  I was not aware you approved of the attack 
BB>  MG>  upon Pearl Harbor.  So you are really nip? or is there a 
BB>  MG>  little jap in the air?

BB>  Say what?  Your mind is becoming irrational.  This is a non 
BB>  sequitor, and even you should know that.  Besides that you 
BB>  are becoming racist even more than Willie on a bad day.  
BB>  Get a grip.

     You find nothing wrong with Japan attacking a neutral 
country and killing 2500 of their sailors and their capital naval 
assets without warning.  You approve.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Give me liberty or I will take it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (470)
To:      Bert Byfield                            2 Dec 94 22:02:00
Subject: MURDER IN HIROSHIMA 1/2                

BB> Now you are expressing indignation at MY racism?  

     Why should I bother when you admit it?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (478)
To:      All                                     3 Dec 94 00:26:00
Subject: LIBERALS, NEW DEFINITIONS              

     Liberals:  The Chia Pets of politics.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Do you expect the poor to hire you?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (488)
To:      Linda Terrell                           3 Dec 94 02:18:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LT>      thoroughly against things like 187 and "scapegoating" 
LT>  high vis groups which can't protect themselves.  We did it 
LT>  in 1941 with Japanese internment camps.  It can happen 
LT>  again.

     How does one "scapegoat" criminals?  Where is it written 
that criminals get the protection of law?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (489)
To:      Willie Martin                           3 Dec 94 02:22:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

WM>  >          So what is your point, are you going to deny now 
WM>  >  that what I quoted was not the Amendment in question.  You 
WM>  >  really are having a rough time aren't you.

WM>  No I am saying you don't understand the difference between 
WM>  a citizen and one who is not.

     It is quite irrelevant.  The rights of criminals are not 
protected by the 14th.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (490)
To:      Linda Terrell                           3 Dec 94 02:23:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LT>    If the *Constitution* doesn't apply to "illegals" as many 
LT>  have been pointing out (or wanting to point out) then we 
LT>  can kill, rape, beat and rob "illegals" with impunity

     Get it straight for 4603.  Very little of the constitution 
protects the rights of criminals.  Nothing protects their right 
to welfare, food stamps, an education or to vote for that matter.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Today Waco.  Gestern USA.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (491)
To:      Linda Terrell                           3 Dec 94 02:25:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

LT>     something similar was done in WWII -- and WE did it.  To 
LT>  BORN citizens.

     Are you proposing some form of national atonement in the 
form of giving benefits to criminals?  If so, please be specific.  
Be certain to connect the two groups.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (492)
To:      Bert Byfield                            3 Dec 94 02:28:00
Subject: CHANGING HISTORY                       

BB>  The wearing of a uniform is a point you seem confused 
BB>  about.  The civilians murdered at Hiroshima (etc) were not 
BB>  wearing one.  They were not troops momentarily inactive.  
BB>  They were innocent civilians.  All your double-think cannot 
BB>  cover up that ugly fact, no matter how much you wish it 
BB>  did.

     Uniform or not the sailors at Pearl Harbor were equally 
innocent yet the Nips murdered them without the least concern.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (493)
To:      Bert Byfield                            3 Dec 94 02:31:00
Subject: DEATH IN NAGASAKI (2/3)                

BB>  GB>  The US did not start seriously fighting the Germans until 
BB>  GB>  D-Day? I am sure the thousands of US Airmen who died in the 
BB>  GB>  '42 air war over Europe in unescorted bombers would 
BB>  GB>  disagree with you...if they were still alive.  Not to 
BB>  GB>  mention '43.  Or through almost half of '44 for that

BB>  The millions of Russians who died actually defeating Hitler 
BB>  would not be impressed.  Back to the books with you.  You 
BB>  have swallowed too much propaganda.

     So you still believe the US entered the war in Europe on 
D-Day.  You do stick to your stupidity.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (494)
To:      Bert Byfield                            3 Dec 94 02:33:00
Subject: DEATH IN NAGASAKI (2/3)                

BB>  MG>       I have no idea what you are going to be impressed 
BB>  MG>  with.  I only know that by your statement you are a lying, 
BB>  MG>  ignorant fool and have no knowledge of interest whatsoever 
BB>  MG>  about WW II.  If that is not clear enough you are also a 
BB>  MG>  stupid shit.  Is there anything else?

BB> Yes.  My large disappointment in you as a thinking being.

     And how could a non-thinking being judge a thinking one?

BB>  MG>      It is good to see you see Squeaky Fromm to be good people

BB> Now I have some connection with Squeaky Fromm?  You are losing it.

     She was not in uniform.

BB>  MG>  just like your Emperor worshipping primitive, ignorant Jap 
BB>  MG>  soul

BB>  Now I am a Japanese spy?  You are really grasping at 
BB>  straws, as your position slides from stupid to evil.

     I did not say spy.  Were I interested in being more 
descriptive I would say you are an America hating asshole who 
invents lies without the skill of a half way good propagandist.

BB>  MG>  mates.  We know you love your emperor but we are tired of 
BB>  MG>  hearing how his worshipping supporters were innocent.  If 
BB>  MG>  they did not support the war they had a duty to overthrow 
BB>  MG>  their government and stop the war.  They did not.  End of 
BB>  MG>  discussion.

BB> End of YOUR discussion, perhaps.  I am just warming up.

     You shot your wad admitting there are no records of any 
peace negotiations while claiming to know they existed even those 
spies were conducting the negotiations.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (495)
To:      Kenneth Weiss                           3 Dec 94 02:41:00
Subject: DECENT PEOPLE                          

KW>  Gays have been using the line "If you bash us, you must be 
KW>  one of us" for too long.  

     Actually such a claim is almost a violation of the rules 
here.  It is the "I know you are but what am I response."

     Also quite childish.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Give me liberty or I will take it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (496)
To:      Thomas Mccullock                        3 Dec 94 02:45:00
Subject: FIDONET PORNO RING                     

TM>  First of all, Mr.  Moderator, I *DID* send you a complaint, 
TM>  but  you ignored it.  Then I contacted my local Host, and 
TM>  NEC.  They  did nothing.  I have now contacted the DA in Ft.  
TM>  Worth, The Texas  Attorney General, The Colorado Attorney 
TM>  General, The El Paso  County District Attorney, The US 
TM>  Attorney General, The FBI, NBC  Dateline, ABC Primetime 
TM>  Live, CBS Eye 2 Eye, ABC 20/20, ABC  Turning Point, PBS 
TM>  Frontline, and Dr.  Dobson's Focus on the Family.  Since 
TM>  FidoNet will not police itself, perhaps the law  and the 
TM>  public will.

     You forgot to notify the UN, Operation Outreach, the 
Trilateral Commission and the Masons.  No wonder you are not 
getting results.



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (497)
To:      Andrew Cummins                          3 Dec 94 02:48:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S AR 1/                   

AC>  BS>  Nonsense.  Trying to produce sedimentary rock through the 
AC>  BS>  weight of 10,000 feet of water should be very, very easy.  
AC>  BS>  That's only about 300 atmospheres of pressure, or about 
AC>  BS>  15,000 PSI.

AC>  Who has said that water, sediment, and pressure is all it 
AC>  takes to make rock?  How about drainage?

     So drain it.  Just make sedimentary rock in a year.

AC>  BS>  A chamber to withstand that would be reasonable inexpensive 
AC>  BS>  to build.  Fill it with soil and water for a year, throw in 
AC>  BS>  a couple of sea shells and skeletons, and out should come 
AC>  BS>  sedimentary rock with fossils embedded.

AC>  Don't forget to talk to your congressman about a big 
AC>  government grant to start my research.

     The ICR funds research doesn't it?  Why do not you apply 
there?  Is it because they LIE when they say they do research?  
Of course it is.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (498)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            3 Dec 94 02:50:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

LG>  MG>  As I have studied it and you have not that puts me at least 
LG>  MG>  one up on you does it not?  The quantum fluctuations in the 
LG>  MG>  energy level of nothing have been known since the 1930s.  
LG>  MG>  That you have failed to learn that much about nothing is 
LG>  MG>  not surprising by it does not alleviate your obligation to 
LG>  MG>  learn about it before you speak of it.

LG>          If energy levels are emitting from "nothing", then 
LG>          that "nothing" has become something -- if nothing 
LG>          else a mass of energy levels -- in which case it is 
LG>          no longer nothing.

     You present ignorance of the subject does not relief you of 
the responsibility to learn the subject.  First of all you could 
learn english.  You have just agreed something can come from 
nothing.  

LG>  MG> Because he demands worship on pain of eternal damnation.
LG>  MG> That is right from the movie.

LG>          God doesn't demand worship.  In fact God does not 
LG>          demand anything.
LG> 
LG>          God did say that if man worshipped him, and obeyed 
LG>          him, he would be rewarded with eternal life.
LG> 
LG>          And that if he did not, he would suffer eternal 
LG>          damnation.

     And just how do you separate the promise of eternal 
damnation from a demand?  

LG>          God isn't demanding anything -- He just shows man 
LG>          the various consequences of his possible reactions.

     ALL the consequences of its own creation and not necessary 
unless something is forcing your god to it that way.
     
LG>          Man has the choice -- the final choice in the 
LG>          matter.

     What choice?  Pretend to worship voluntarily or hell?  

LG>  MG>  It means that your god was no better at giving out laws and 
LG>  MG>  standards of behavior that are generally common across all 
LG>  MG>  societies from primitive to modern.  And that is all your 
LG>  MG>  god was into revealing.  The same things we can't solve 
LG>  MG>  like the elimination of war your god was not only silent 
LG>  MG>  upon but in many cases very actively encouraged like any 
LG>  MG>  human warlord.  Not one word on how to end disease.  Humans 
LG>  MG>  had to get started on that completely independently and 
LG>  MG>  have done a damn good job at getting the human life span 
LG>  MG>  into the 80s without help from your god.

LG>          Where has man done such a good job in the medical 
LG>          field?

     Ever heard of vaccinations?  Are you pretending you know 
noting of medicine?  Do you expect me to believe even you are 
that stupid?

LG>          In America -- a nation -- ONE NATION UNDER GOD -- 
LG>          as our forefathers so quaintly put it.

     That line was added in 1954.  They did NOT say that.  You 
may provide quotations if you think you can prove that point.

LG>          The life expectancy in America far exceeds that of 
LG>          any other nation on the face of this earth.

     Due to human medicine, something your god could not develop 
on its own.

LG>          No, God did not solve the problem for us.  But he 
LG>          did give us the intelligence to solve it for 
LG>          ourselves.

     If the bastard can create the problems in the first place 
the least it can do it solve the -- it if is able.

LG>          Since Christ died on the cross for the sins of 
LG>          mankind, God has not participated in the day-to-day 
LG>          affairs of mankind.

     It is interesting to read you say prayer is worthless as 
noting has come of it in 2000 years.

LG>  MG>  Thus what we can solve is all that he can solve.  What we 
LG>  MG>  can not solve he can not solve.

LG>          God already has solved it.  The solution to anything 
LG>          was known to him before the foundations of the 
LG>          world were laid.

     You bastard god kept is all a secret while hundreds of 
millions died of the diseased it created.  You are worshipping an 
incompetant or a sadist.

LG>  MG>  In other words there is no way to tell in general from the 
LG>  MG>  moral revelations of your god and the social customs of 
LG>  MG>  Australian aborigines.

LG>           The fact that a bunch of rebels from England were 
LG>           able to fabricate the greatest nation of freedom 
LG>           ever known on the face of this earth -- and did it 
LG>           UNDER GOD because IN GOD WE TRUST, is more than 
LG>           adequate testimony to His revelations.

     And of course that is simply a demonstration that you had a 
public school education to think there was any such statement by 
them.  They were mostly atheists and deists neither gave a damn 
about any god.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (499)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            3 Dec 94 03:02:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

LG>  MG>  Or perhaps you will give me a similar license with the rest 
LG>  MG>  of the bible?  That I can give a different meaning to any 
LG>  MG>  and every other word?  That way it is very simple to prove 
LG>  MG>  the apostles were lying about the resurrection as those 
LG>  MG>  days did not mean 24 hours either but millions of years.  
LG>  MG>  If in every case the word day means whatever you want it to 
LG>  MG>  mean then of what value the written word in the first 
LG>  MG>  place?

LG>            If you want to change the meaning of every word 
LG>            in the Bible, Matt, go for it.

     You are selectively changing the meanings of words to make 
it mean what you want it to mean.

LG>            I do not have to answer for your life -- just 
LG>            mine.  So do anything you feel is safe for you.

     Then keep changing what is written and you will have a lot 
to answer for.

LG>            Seems somewhere though I read something about 
LG>            calendars, etc, being adjusted and changed long 
LG>            after the first books of the Bible were written.

     That is pure speculation and there is no evidence for it.  
It is speculation solely to cover up the nonsense in Genesis.

LG>            You don't suppose what Adam thought was a year 
LG>            wasn't really a year as we know it, do you?

     Never was there found any people primitive enough not to 
know what a year is.  Why would presume he was that stupid and 
where does he reference a year?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in Charge of Corpus Crispy OPS.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (500)
To:      Rhoda Crosite                           3 Dec 94 03:06:00
Subject: GASOHOL                                

RC>  also i saw a home video made in early eighties about a guy 
RC>  in south ontario (richard thomas) who was reely promoting 
RC>  alcohol as a cleaner fuel but he showed theres lots of 
RC>  problems with the government about it, like he just used 
RC>  'class 7' land thats not much good for any other kinda 
RC>  farming and he grew suger beets and jurusalem artachokes, 
RC>  stuff that could reely just grow wild and didnt need much 
RC>  farming, it was suger based crops he needed.  he made the 
RC>  alcohol from this for like 30 or 35 cents a gallon and said 
RC>  the mash was fed to his cows or used for fertilizer and of 
RC>  cors cows make theyre own.  he showed how making little 
RC>  changes in the motor would run all his farm machines but 
RC>  the government 1) closed him down just caus he had a 
RC>  illegal still and then 2) after he got some publicity the 
RC>  government sayd they did the experiment and id didnt work 
RC>  but they bot all new equipment and used class one land and 
RC>  all the costs went threw the roof.

     You are missing something here.  One needs heat for 
distillation.  For large scale production you need more heat than 
can be provided by the waste products of the crop being used.  
That additional heat has to be paid for.  On a small scale he 
could use the wastes of all of his crops to do the distillation 
and not be paying for the extra heat.

     Next, feeding the animals with the waste is fine IF the 
animals are nearby.  If it has to be shipped it starts to rot 
unless it too is dried out at additional costs.  

     Everything you saw can be done on a small farm that is self 
sufficient.  It is when you get into large scale production that 
the costs start going up mainly due to the extra heat required 
for distillation.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 2.  Obey or die.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (501)
To:      Scot Bear                               3 Dec 94 03:11:00
Subject: GRID                                   

SB>  >  have been for almost 20 years.  Yes, ALMOST 
SB>  >  20...............  Because GRID was first discussed in the 
SB>  >  late 70's...  78 - 79.......

SB> The term "GRID" wasn't coined until 1982...

     But the gay community in San Fran refused to make any effort 
to keep itself alive until the name was changed.                               
                                           


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (502)
To:      Bert Byfield                            3 Dec 94 03:16:00
Subject: HIROSHIMA                              

BB>  This is a controvercial point.  The proponents of the "USA 
BB>  entrapped Japan" theory tend to downplay the actual 
BB>  strategic damage of Pearl Harbor, saying that we quickly 
BB>  replaced or repaired everything.  The "Pearl Harbor was US 
BB>  stupidity" theorists are less fussy about the judgements of 
BB>  the damage.

     As opposed to scientific theorists, your kind has no use for 
facts.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (503)
To:      Stacey Irwin                            3 Dec 94 03:18:00
Subject: HIROSHIMA                              

SI>  Everything I have ever read states that the Civil War was 
SI>  the last war fought on American soil.  All the historians, 
SI>  teachers, and Profeesors I have ever heard speak on the 
SI>  subject say that the Civil War was the last war fought on 
SI>  American soil.
SI> 
SI>  ENTER HERE the if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-stupid 
SI>  argument:

     If you believe what you were taught in public schools you 
have no one but yourself to blame.



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (504)
To:      Bert Byfield                            3 Dec 94 03:21:00
Subject: HOLY WAR AGAINST JAPAN                 

BB>  A foolish thing to say.  If someone says hundreds of 
BB>  thousands of innocent Japanese civilians can be murdered 
BB>  and it is okay, then I challenge you to explain how this 
BB>  can be so without hatred of Japanese people in general.  I 
BB>  am waiting.

     Keep waiting.  They supported their government and the war.  
You are the idiot who thinks that is innocence.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Children of Waco, I feel your pain.  Bill Clinton

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+++■■■■■ r_941211 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (3)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            7 Dec 94 23:34:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

 The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the 
Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be 
classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the 
brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and 
freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this 
artificial scaffolding and restore to use the primitive and 
genuine doctrines of this most veneterated Reformer of human 
errors.

                           --Thomas Jefferson

                                 <***>

 I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.

                           --Thomas Jefferson

                                 <***>

 The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds,
Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other
foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

                              ---John Adams

                                 <***>

 The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I
could never give assent to the long complicated statements of
Christian dogma.

                           --Abraham Lincoln

                                 <***>

 As to Jesus of Nazareth . . . I think the system of Morals and
his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw
or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various
corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present
Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity.

                          ---Benjamin Franklin

                                 <***>

 They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the
approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing
the subversions of the duperies on which they live.

                           --Thomas Jefferson

                                 <***>

 I find every sect, as far as reason will help them, make use of
it gladly; and where it fails them, they cry out, 'It is a
matter of faith, and above reason.'

                              --John Locke

                                 <***>

 I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of
the world, and do not find in our particular superstition
[Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded
on fables and mythology.

                           --Thomas Jefferson

                                 <***>

 But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer
of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from
by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted
into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their
oppressors in Church and State.

                --Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

                                 <***>

 I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father,
expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is
even infinitely above it."

  ---Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of
Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

                                 <***>

 Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if
there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than
that of blind-folded fear.

 --Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 10 Aug.
1787.

                                 <***>

 "A lively and lasting sense of filial duty is more effectually
impressed on the mind of a son or daughter by reading King Lear,
than by all the dry volumes of ethics, and divinity, that ever
were written."

              --Letter to Robert Skipwith [August 3, 1771]

                                 <***>

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from
the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was
proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A
departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our
religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in
proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its
protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and
Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

          --Thomas Jefferson Autobiography in reference to the

                  Virginia Act for Religious Freedom"

                                 <***>

**Note** This one by Jefferson (below), clearly is an attack on

Christianity, to it's very roots!**



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus
are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have
perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely
incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine
words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of
Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a
virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of
Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

               --Jefferson Letter to Adams, Apr 11, 1823.

                                 <***>


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * First they came for Weaver and I did not speak.  Then they

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (4)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            7 Dec 94 23:35:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

    [Of Jesus] Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him
by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination,
correct morality, and of the the most lovely benevolence, and
others, again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much
untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it
impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from
the same being. I separate, therefore, the dross; restore to him
the former and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the
roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and
imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of
the doctrines of Jesus.

                 --Jefferson Letter to W. Short, 1820.

                                 <***>

I cannot say that I am descended from the bastards of Oliver
Cromwell, or his courtiers, or from the Puritans who punish
their horses for breaking the Sabbath, or from those who
persecuted Quakers and burned the witches.

       --Mathew Lyon (1746-1822) American Patriot and Congressman

                                 <***>

There is not any thing, which has contributed so much to delude
mankind in religious matters, as mistaken apprehensions
concerning supernatural inspiration or revelation; not
considering that all true religion originates from reason, and
can not otherwise be understood, but by the exercise and
improvement of it.

- -Ethan Allen, American Revolutionary Hero Reason, The Only
Oracle of Man

As the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian Religion,-as it has itself no character of enmity
against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,...

                     --John Adams Article 11, Treaty    of Peace
and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of
Tripoli of Barbary.Treaties and Other International Acts of of
America.

                          Edited Hunter Miller

                                 <***>

He who shall introduce into public affairs the principle of
primitive Christianity will change the face of the world.

      --Benjamin Franklin Letter to the French Ministry March
1778

                                 <***>

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is
more regarded than virtue.  The scriptures assure me that at the
last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we
did."

             --Benjamin Franklin letter to his father, 1738

                                 <***>

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father,
expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is
even infinitely above it."

        --Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of

                        Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

                                 <***>

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ...
I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing
... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and
compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of
pleasing the Deity."

               --Benjamin Franklin Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

                                 <***>

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had
on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a
spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many
instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political
tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the
liberties of the people."

              --James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance,
addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of
Virginia, 1785.

                                 <***>

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments,
instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have
had a contrary operation.  During almost fifteen centuries has
the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial.  What has
been its fruits?  More or less, in all places, pride and
indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity;
in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

     --James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to
the  General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785.

                                 <***>

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal
example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has
preserved--the Cross.  Consider what calamities that engine of
grief has produced!"

                 --John Adams letter to Thomas Jefferson

                                 <***>

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the
Christian era?  Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious
by the bull of Pope Gelasius?  Where are the forty wagon-loads
of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another
pope, because suspected of heresy?  Remember the 'index
expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter
and the guillotine."

                   --John Adams letter to John Taylor

                                 <***>

This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no
religion in it.

                    --John Adams Letter to Jefferson

                                 <***>


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (5)
To:      Bert Byfield                            7 Dec 94 23:38:00
Subject: HIROSHIMA                              

BB>  MG> BB>  The idea that any group of innocent civilians "deserves" to
BB>  MG> BB>  be murdered is gross and sick and evil.  Seek help.
BB>  MG>
BB>  MG>       Innocent civilians do not work in any manner that will 
BB>  MG>  support a war.  They even refuse to pay taxes and actively 
BB>  MG>  object to such wars.  Anything else is participation in the 
BB>  MG>  war.
BB>  MG> 
BB>  MG>       That they exposed their children to the danger is 
BB>  MG>  their problem.

BB>  That you have no soul is YOUR problem.  Murder is still 
BB>  against the law, no matter how much you like it.  Ask our 
BB>  judges at Nuremberg and Tokyo, hanging men for less than 
BB>  FDR and Truman did.

     Cite the people and the charges at the War Crimes Tribunal 
that you imagine apply.  Hint:  None apply but why not waste your 
time imagining something you think I will challenge you on?  You 
have nothing better to make up at this point.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (6)
To:      Stacey Irwin                            7 Dec 94 23:40:00
Subject: TERM LIMITS                            

SI>  |-----------------|Matt Giwer wrote:
SI> MG>Twelve year term limits.

SI> MG> It is interesting that it takes men twelve years to cause 
SI> MG> the same amount of problems that a woman can in nine 
SI> MG> months.

SI>  Isn't it also interesting that in 20 minutes or less a man 
SI>  can cause a woman problems that last 18 3/4 years and walk 
SI>  away with no responsibility?

     It takes two to fuck.  Women shouldn't be so horny.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Today Waco.  Gestern USA.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (7)
To:      All                                     8 Dec 94 05:59:00
Subject: BIRDS OF A FEATHER                     

     Great news.  Right on the heels of Webster Hubbell copping a 
plea rather than face some serious charges McDougall is in going 
to be indicted for criminal activities.

     Remember plausible deniability?  Every partner of the 
Clintons save Ms. McDougall who was refused a plea bargain will 
be under felony indictment or guilty plea by the first of the 
year.  

     Of course, only the Clintons are innocent while all of their 
business partners are guilty.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * My god's bigger than your god.  He eats Kennelration.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (177)
To:      Bert Byfield                            8 Dec 94 20:09:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

BB>  MG> LT>      thoroughly against things like 187 and "scapegoating"
BB>  MG> LT>  high vis groups which can't protect themselves.  We did it
BB>  MG> LT>  in 1941 with Japanese internment camps.  It can happen
BB>  MG> LT>  again.
BB>  MG>
BB>  MG>      How does one "scapegoat" criminals?  Where is it written
BB>  MG> that criminals get the protection of law?

BB>  Are you calling the American citizens of Japanese descent 
BB>  "criminals" just for being ethnically Japanese?  That is 
BB>  really racist of you.  Willie has got your brain.

     If you are too illiterate to follow the thread, don't jump 
into the middle of it.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      Wayne Jones                             8 Dec 94 20:10:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

WJ>          The rights of persons are covered under the 14th, 
WJ>          the rights of criminals are granted under the 4th, 
WJ>          5th, 6th, 7th, 11th, 13th, amendments.  OJ is 
WJ>          incarcerated due to an indictment, also covered in 
WJ>          the amendments.  You are way out on a limb with 
WJ>          this one.

     And you are saying that no one is ever jailed prior to an 
arragnment?  Please, that can be up to six days wait.  Further 
these criminals are "arrested" and brought before INS and given 
and given a hearing in 60 days.  And they all swear they will 
show up for it.  And you know they do.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Today Waco.  Gestern USA.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (179)
To:      Wayne Jones                             8 Dec 94 20:20:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

WJ>  MG>  That is one issue but criminals lose there civil rights by 
WJ>  MG>  the fact of being criminals.  Ask OJ about his deprivation 
WJ>  MG>  of liberty without being convicted much less tried.
WJ>  MG> 
WJ>  MG>  I do not see the merit of your issue.

WJ>          I am not debating weather illegal aliens are 
WJ>          criminals or not, I am merely pointing out that the 
WJ>          Amendment in question, does not say that rights are 
WJ>          only afforded to citizens.  My point being where it 
WJ>          says "any person" under the US juristiction.  
WJ>          Certainly California is in US juristiction.

     The issue is more clear than that.  Find a non-citizen in 
the country without documentation and you have caught someone in 
the act of committing a crime.  They are committing their crime 
24 hours a day for as long as they are in the country.  

     The simple act of finding them is no different than catching 
any other criminal in the act of committing a crime.  
     
     As I pointing out in my article on the subject requiring the 
state to give state benefits to these criminals is no different 
from requiring the state to provide benefits to all prisoners 
housed within the state both before and after conviction.  Things 
like welfare payments and food stamps and medicaid would have to 
be provided.  That is neither consistent nor rational.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Ruby Creek, Waco; the war has already begun.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (180)
To:      Bert Byfield                            8 Dec 94 20:25:00
Subject: CHANGING HISTORY                       

BB>  MG>       Uniform or not the sailors at Pearl Harbor were 
BB>  MG>  equally innocent yet the Nips murdered them without the 
BB>  MG>  least concern.

BB> So?  Do you have a point or what?

     The Nips asked for it.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (181)
To:      Bert Byfield                            8 Dec 94 20:26:00
Subject: DEATH IN HIROSHIMA                     

BB>  MG>       And you are claiming there were absolutely no 
BB>  MG>  munitions plants, nothing supporting the war at all in the 
BB>  MG>  city?  I know what was in the city, people too stupid to 
BB>  MG>  leave when the leaflets told them to leave.

BB>  Do you know how much you sound like the nazi apologists for 
BB>  the murder of the Jews?  They also say the Jews deserved to 
BB>  die because they did not leave Germany after being "warned" 
BB>  to leave.  You are a nazi pig.  I no longer value your 
BB>  opinions.  I can stand only so much justification for the 
BB>  murder of men, women, and children on solely ethnic grounds 
BB>  and cheap excuses.

     In other words you are admitting there were munitions plants 
in the city and the civilians in the city were working in them to 
provide the ability to kill Americans.  You are also agreeing 
they were too stupid to leave after they were warned.  

     Thank you for your admissions.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (182)
To:      Bert Byfield                            8 Dec 94 20:27:00
Subject: DEATH IN NAGASAKI (2/3)                

BB>  MG>       I did not say spy.  Were I interested in being more 
BB>  MG>  descriptive I would say you are an America hating asshole 
BB>  MG>  who invents lies without the skill of a half way good 
BB>  MG>  propagandist.

BB>  You would be a stupid asshole to say that.  But what else 
BB>  is new?

     You have just admitted the city and the people in the city 
were valid military targets and that they were too stupid to 
leave.  Perhaps you have Japanese ancestry.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Welcome to Masada, Texas.  Never again!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (183)
To:      Bert Byfield                            8 Dec 94 20:28:00
Subject: HIROSHIMA                              

BB>  MG>       You find nothing wrong with Japan attacking a neutral 
BB>  MG>  country and killing 2500 of their sailors and their capital 
BB>  MG>  naval assets without warning.  You approve.

BB>  Two wrongs do not make a right.  

     That is suitable to impart simple concepts to children that 
do not apply in adult life.  Grow up.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (184)
To:      Bert Byfield                            8 Dec 94 20:29:00
Subject: HOLY WAR AGAINST JAPAN                 

BB>  MG>       Keep waiting.  They supported their government and the 
BB>  MG>  war.  You are the idiot who thinks that is innocence.

BB>  You are the person who has no concept of either ethics or 
BB>  honor.  

     In war that went out with the Napoleanic war.  Grow up.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (200)
To:      All                                     9 Dec 94 03:51:00
Subject: THE NAKED PRESIDENT                    

                      The Naked President
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/9>

     Senator Jesse Helms started taking heat for stating the
obvious, President William Jefferson Blythe Clinton is not
qualified to be the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the
United States.  If anyone wants to pretend he is qualified they
first have to explain away twenty two dead Marines in Somalia
because they were refused the equipment to perform their mission.
Those Marines attempted to perform their mission regardless of
equipment and died for following the orders of the incompetent
Commander in Chief Clinton.
     The sanctimonious indignation was bipartisan.  Democrats and
Republicans, starting the Bob Dole, said President Clinton had
the job and therefore something.  The something was never stated.
It reminds of the crowd applauding the Emperor's New Clothes.  No
one was willing to say what they were applauding nor could the
possibly know what they were applauding.  But they were
applauding our naked president.
     From his own lips his only qualification to be Commander in
Chief of the United States Armed Forces is that he once called
out the Arkansas National Guard.  He was asked the question.
That was his answer.  Do not complain to me that is his only
qualification.  Complain to him.
     Why is this treated like a family secret?  After his first
trip as president to a NATO delegates of other countries were
interviewed.  They stated, in no uncertain terms, that the US was
no longer the leader of NATO and they would be searching for
another country to become the leader.  It is not as though other
countries do not know it.  It is not as though Saddam Hussein
does not listen to CNN.
     So what is the point of maintaining this pretense that
President Clinton is smartly and fashionably dressed as a
military leader?  There is no need to dredge out his childhood,
Rhodes Scholar history to try to show he loathes the military.
Perhaps he loves the military.  So did the leader of the Third
Reich; he was simply incompetent in leading it.
     The last political leader in the west truly qualified to
also be a military leader was Bonaparte.  We should not expect to
always have political leaders who are competent in the job.  That
President Clinton is our first and such an egregious example of
incompetence is simply the luck of the draw in our election
process.  It had to happen some time.
     The man has other sterling qualities which we admire in a
president.  Let us meditate upon them for a moment...
     That was long enough and I am certain we were all able to
think of all of his qualities in the allotted ellipsis.
Certainly he taught and understands constitutional law.  Was it
surprising to anyone that his two of his first three announced
plans regarding gays in the military were violations of his one
day old oath of office and impeachable offenses if implemented?
     So he is no more qualified to understand the constitution
than he is to be Commander in Chief.  Is that all bad?  I mean
this is a man who is so qualified to revise health care in
America that turns it over to his unqualified but attorney wife
who will soon have to appear in court for her violations of the
law in the matter.  This is a man whose closest business partner,
Webster Hubbell, is a confessed felon.
     This man has a lot to recommend him.  At the meeting of the
Democratic Leadership Conference he tells a joke implying either
he or his wife is bad luck for the Democrat Party.  In moments of
stress, and losing Congress is a great stress, politicians, like
engineers, are likely to blurt out the truth.
     So perhaps for the first time we have a truthful statement
from this man; he is a jynx.  It was his jynx that resulted in
the deaths of 22 United States Marines for following his orders
with inadequate equipment to fulfill those orders.  It was his
jynx that has turned NATO into a paper tiger.  It was his jynx
that put his wife onto health care reform and now we have jack
shit.
     His defenders love to say he is a complex man, that he is
hard to understand in any one speech.  Let me put this man in
perspective.  While trying to recover from the election day loss
he as endorsed five of the ten items in the House Republican
Contract with America.  That is a complex man.  Half of him is an
arch-conservative Republican.
     Rather that is the way the wind is blowing today.  President
Clinton is a man who will say anything at any time for the
transitory gains of the moment.  President Clinton is more like
the clothes than the emperor, only his true believers can see him
as a qualified president.
     What is the real Bill Clinton?  It is not the president.  It
is not the commander in chief.  The real Bill Clinton is the
emperor who struts down the street, not for the vanity of the new
clothes, rather for the momentary approval of the crowds.  Long
life Bill Clinton!  Long may he suck up to us all.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Liberals roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nipping at

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (201)
To:      Sol Steinberg                           9 Dec 94 05:07:00
Subject: BLACKS AND I.Q.                        

SS>  He must be talking about The Bell Curve.  His logic seems 
SS>  equally good.  If you subject enough different races to the 
SS>  same ill-treatment, it's not racism.  Oy, when political 
SS>  beliefs enter the "sciences." Isn't it funny that the 
SS>  conservatives complain that the liberals have distorted the 
SS>  sciences?

     Is it too much to expect you to read the fucking book (RTFB) 
before you spout off on matters that are refuted in it?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

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+++■■■■■ r_941222 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (63)
To:      Jj Judkins                             16 Dec 94 21:34:00
Subject: A BOMB STAMP                           

JJ>  MG> Japanese object to mushroom cloud stamp?

JJ>  MG> Would they rather something they are proud of?  like a Pearl
JJ>  MG> Harbor stamp?

JJ> Shows where the real power is, doesn't it?

JJ> I wonder, did bert have anything to do with this? :)

     Burt, Clinton, what is the difference.  They both feel the 
US should have lost for being so nasty.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (64)
To:      Matt Eggleston                         16 Dec 94 21:36:00
Subject: DEATH IN HIROSHIMA                     

ME> MG> You are also agreeing they were too stupid to leave after 
ME> MG> they were warned.
ME> MG> 
ME> MG>      Thank you for your admissions.

ME>  I think you are over the head of this "BBozo".  I'd give up 
ME>  on him were I you, which is why this is to you instead of 
ME>  him.  I'm doing more telling you why you're right than I 
ME>  would by telling him why he's wrong.  Unless, of course, you 
ME>  just get entertainment knowing he's getting ready for an 
ME>  early stroke!

     The bozo brings this up ever year or so in some manner.  He 
is the classic "hate America first" type of flaming liberal 
marxist.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (65)
To:      Linda Terrell                          16 Dec 94 21:38:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

LT>  I have a job.

     Too bad.  Retiring early is so much more pleasant.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (66)
To:      All                                    17 Dec 94 12:54:00
Subject: ARMY JOINS MILITA'S/JUST               

 ##########  Original From: BRAD MEYERS
 # STOLEN #             To: ALL
 #  STUFF #    Date/Number: 12/14/94 - 0002560
 ##########             On: DOC'S - 0131 - Civlib
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  The filberts are at it again.   Not only that bt they are spamming all
over the internet.  I do not know if the Generalissimo is involved in this
or not, but thought it might interest you folks.

* Forwarded (from: u_jmc) by Brad Meyers using timEd 1.01.

From: jcook@space.mit.edu (Jim Cook)
Date: 14 Dec 1994 16:08:15 GMT

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    British Press Warns USGOV & ADL to Stop Planning Waco's
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 
                    Partiot games turn deadly
               [The Sunday Telegraph 4 Dec. 1994]
                    Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
 
The commanders of the Texas Constitutional Militia ( northern
region ) were gathered for a strategy session in a cold workshop
outside Dallas.
[...]
The Texas Constiutional Militia are not an underground guerrilla
force. But they want to keep a low profile during the crucial
organizing phase. Most of them dissapprove of the now celebrated
Michigan Militia which has gone public in a spectacular way by
releasing a videotape of itself training with assault rifles in
the woods.
  Like other militia's around the country, the TCM is growing at
phenominal speed. It began earlier this year, holding it's first
"muster" at the Alamo on April 19. Seven months later it already
has 32 counties under arms. New counties are joining at the rate
of 2 a week. There are no formal rosters of membership, but the
leaders claim that several thousand Texans are actively participa-
ting in one way or another.
  The Militia is not to be confused with the Texas National Guard
which is a Reserve Organization of the US Armed Forces. It is a
spontaneous army of citizens, invoking a constituional right to
bear arms and to join together in the defence of liberty.
[...]
The last straw was the Waco assault, the gassing and incineration
of 17 children and 64 adults at the Branch Davidian commmunity last
year. Nobody has been brought to account for that abuse of power.
  "We were sleep-walking through life. It was the massacre that woke
 us all up", said John Turner, a small businessman who commands the
 northern region of Texas.
 " When the history of this age is written, that'll be the shot
that rang out around the world and changed everything".
[...]
Training is done by a team of former Green Berets and Navy Seals. It
includes survival techniques and urban and rural guerrilla warfare.
Turner insisted that there was no plan to take offensive action.
"We're 90 per-cent real Christians . We don't want to start blowing
up bridges or sniping at Judges."
[...]
"We have penetrated the governments electronic intelligence system
and we've turned it against them." says John Roland, a former Civil
Rights and Enviromental Activist who helped set up the TCM. "There
are lots of Little Brothers watching the Big Brothers".
  The main purpose of the movement, its members claim, is deterence.
Every time the government oversteps its authority it will have to
consider the possibility of armed opposition. And if it tries another
Waco, it will have a minor war on its hands.
  The National Guard will not be of much help, at least in Texas. A
large number of police officers, sherriffs and reserve guardsmen are
secret members of the militia. The army cannot be counted on either.
Behind the Texas Constitutional Militia there are layers of para-
military groups that tap into the US Military Complex.
  For example, there are three battalions of the Texas Light Infantry.
They are disgruntled former members of the Texas State Guard, a
military police auxiliary under state control. "We do airborne
parachuting, night ambush operations, and we simulate explosives" said
Gert Ording, commander of the Third Battalion in Bryan.
   Secretly, ther is much else besides. The most serious force appears
to be Big Star One, a Division sized network in northern Texas,
Oklahoma and New Mexico that includes serving officers of the U.S.
military. If found out they could face a court martial.
  It is made up of three military Brigades, according to a member of
one outfit: The Delta, Culpepper and Orange brigades. "We're primarily
training in guerrilla warfare. We learned a lot from the Viet-Cong."
Among thier senior commanders are officers from the US artillery base
at Fort Sill, Oklahoma and Shepard Air Force Base in Texas. The
clandestine division has been excercing in west Texas using mortars
and grenade launchers. " There will be no Waco in this area," said the
source.
  "If the shit hits the fan they'll find the regular army and the
militia are in cahoots".
  A captain in the official Texas State Guard admitted the state was
"extremely concerned" about the unauthorized militias, and said that
he could forsee a rapid and dangerous escalation.
[...]
The Anti-Defamation League, an influential Jewish organization in New
York has published a Report on the Militias around the US entitled
"Armed and Dangerous". It argues that most of them are fringe
malcontents from the Aryan Nation and other white supremicist or
neo-nazi organizations with an anti-semitic bias.
  " I'm Jewish and I take offence to that," says Mark Bowers, a
former artillery officer, who commands the Montgomery County militia
near Houston. "There's nobody of that ilk in our unit. We're trying
to recruit Blacks, Latinos, Jews, women, anybody who wants to join."

 Jim Cook            /\
 MIT Center for Space Research      \/
 Cambridge, Ma            ||
 jcook@space.mit.edu                    ||
                 ||
                                       <||>
                      /\         
                    (())
                                        \/ 

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (67)
To:      Linda Terrell                          17 Dec 94 13:31:00
Subject: SHE CHOOSES WHEN                       

LT>    JAL is most wrong.  The female animal DOES indeed "give 
LT>  permission" to be mounted.  If she is not ready, she will 
LT>  NOT accept the male's advances.  If she is not ready, very 
LT>  few males will even try to mount her.

     So you are saying human females are always ready?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (68)
To:      All                                    17 Dec 94 18:55:00
Subject: FREEDOMS AT RISK                       

     Be prepared to act against another intrusion against our 
freedoms.

     The ASPCA has just proposed a federal law to prohibit 
catapult testing.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer

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+++■■■■■ r_941224 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (40)
To:      All                                    12 Dec 94 20:43:00
Subject: THE NAKED PRESIDENT                    

 ##########  Original From: CAROLE THOMAS
 # STOLEN #             To: MATT GIWER
 #  STUFF #    Date/Number: 12/11/94 - 0000951
 ##########             On: DOC'S - 0004 - Baychat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

MG> military leader?  There is no need to dredge out his childhood,

     Let's do. His childhood was interesting.

     Clinton was born in Hope, Ark., a town of about 8,000 souls 
where they enjoyed such pastimes as moonshining and a watermelon 
festival.  His mother, Virginia, 23, delivered Clinton by 
caesarean 3 months after the accidental death of her husband, 
William Jefferson Blythe in a single car accident.  He was a 
salesman and they had just bought a house which she lost upon his 
death.  Virginia moved into her parents house with baby Bill as 
she did not have sufficient financial resources to be 
independent.

     Clinton's natural father was 28 when he was thrown from his 
car somewhere in Missouri, landed face down in a ditch and 
drowned.  He had been married and divorced and fathered Clinton's
half-brother, Henry Leon by this same woman after they were 
divorced.  Henry is a retired owner of a janitorial service in 
California.

     Clinton's biological father never knew either Clinton or 
Henry.  It was also said that he had married the sister of 
Henry's mother at some point in order to avoid marrying another 
girl who was said to be pregnant by him.  There are also tales of 
a daughter by some other woman somewhere in time. 

     Clinton won the "prettiest baby" contest once.

     He was raised by his grandparents until he was about 4 years 
old.   His mother had gone to New Orleans for a year or so to be 
certified as a nurse anesthetist.

     Clinton was fat and clumsy in school and once fractured his 
leg playing some game and was called a sissy when he cried.

     Virginia married Roger Clinton when Clinton was about 4 
years old.  Roger, sometimes called "Dude", is remembered as an 
alcoholic who beat his wife.  He had two stepsons by a former 
marriage and had started a Buick dealership in Hope sometime 
after the war.  Apparently it didn't prosper as he was always 
borrowing money, usually from his former wife.  He was a short 
man, a snappy dresser who liked to fish and hunt and who was said 
to be able to drink bourbon whiskey all day out of a water glass 
and not appear drunk.

     Roger Clinton was a violent person, shooting a rifle into 
the ceiling on one occasion to scare his wife into not visiting a 
dying relative in hospital. He was arrested for this incident.

     After his dealership failed, Roger got work in Hope as a 
parts manager at another dealership and Virginia worked as a 
nurse anesthesiologist.  They bought a house and had at least one 
domestic servant who worked 40 hours a week for $15 around 1955.

     Clinton's mother, Virginia, was born somewhere around Hope 
and was remembered as friendly, outgoing, real smart, a toucher 
and feeler who puts her hands on your shoulder, a happy person.
Also described as a "character" by many, she had eyebrows painted 
on her forehead, "huge false eyelashes", and her hair was always 
a "catching" color.  She wore tube tops and enjoyed partying and 
the racetrack and the Buick convertible.  But she was also a 
workaholic, on call 24 hours a day, seldom complaining about a 
slipped disk and keeping as quiet as possible about the 
mastectomy she had several years ago.

     She doted on her son, Bill, proudly noting that he won every 
election in school except one where he didn't vote for himself.  
He took his mother's advice and never repeated this mistake.

     When Clinton was 15 he swore in a deposition that his 
stepfather had abused his mother and that he had threatened to 
"mash my face in" if he took her part.  Although this is a matter 
of public record, Clinton claims he is unable to remember it.  He 
has also had great difficulty admitting his stepfather was an 
alcoholic, a difficulty he shared with his mother.  When Clinton 
was 14 he broke in a door to stop his drunken stepfather from 
beating up on his mother.  Clinton was then the biggest family 
member.  His mother divorced Roger Clinton, remarrying him some 3 
months later stating "he didn't hit me a lot".

     Despite this violent, crisis-ridden home life, Clinton 
contined to excel in school and in extracurricular activities, 
seeing himself as destined to achieve something extraordinary
in music or politics.

===the above taken from "The Journal of Psychohistory", volume 
21, winter 1994, with extensive bibliography, by Paul Elovitz---

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (41)
To:      Shannon Taylor                         12 Dec 94 22:55:00
Subject: ECHO                                   

ST> Lee, check out the MPD echo.   Very interesteding.

     There is only one person on it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (42)
To:      Darrel Grattidge                       12 Dec 94 23:04:00
Subject: LIBERALS, NEW DEFINI                   

DG>  It is certainly not the first instance of Matt playing 
DG>  around with Moderator messages in POLITICS.  He manipulated 
DG>  one a few months ago to aid him in his accusations that 
DG>  another contributor (Fred Taub) to that echo was a liar.  
DG>  It seems that Matt still abides by no rules but his own.

     I posted the moderator's messages exactly as the moderator 
posted it without changing one word.  I even posted it to 
Bloomberg and asked him for an alternate interpretation.  
Bloomberg never provided a correction or an alternate 
interpretation to his message.

     Do you have a problem with that?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (43)
To:      Chris Walden                           12 Dec 94 23:05:00
Subject: LIBERALS, NEW DEFINI                   

CW>   A long time ago, a few years to be exact, I accused Matt 
CW>   of being a typical arrogant Jew.  He then wrote me back 
CW>   stating that there was nothing typical about him.  
CW>   Actaully, I agree a lot with what Matt has to say.  He's 
CW>   still quite arrogant, though.

     It is so hard to be humble.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (44)
To:      Rhoda Crosite                          13 Dec 94 06:53:00
Subject: CHARITY IS UNETHICAL?                  

RC>  matt i dont think its about government involvement 
RC>  directly.  its about should we take a company car to take 
RC>  our kids to disney land on the company expense account.  the 
RC>  company wont tell its employees not to do it on its own 
RC>  time and may be the company can do some thing to take part 
RC>  but when theres lotsa costs and deficits then you gotta 
RC>  pull the reigns in a bit and that doesnt meen santa has to 
RC>  pull HIS in.

     When the person has a company car a person is rarely 
expected to have his own.  Using the company car is expected.  It 
is not as though Marines are expected to have their own cars.

RC>  after christmas arent we gonna get into our echos and get 
RC>  back to bitching about how much the governments 
RC>  over-spending? dont you think 'they' are just looking for a 
RC>  diferent and less publicly expensive way of doing it?
RC> 
RC>  this just sounds like trying to find a compromise between 
RC>  tradition and economic realitys.

     It is something I will be getting to over the next few 
months.  I am not posting sequential excerpts from a book.  There 
is a value to tradition, some of which have a chance of being 
more than custom.  Considering the charitable tradition of what 
we call the Christmas season can be traced back 2500 years it is 
not as though people should be prohibited from the activity 
because they are in a job where owning a car and having a house 
as storage space is not financially practical.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (45)
To:      All                                    13 Dec 94 07:21:00
Subject: BIRDS OF A FEATHER                     

LR>  MG>  Remember plausible deniability?  Every partner of the 
LR>  MG>  Clintons save Ms.  McDougall who was refused a plea bargain 
LR>  MG>  will be under felony indictment or guilty plea by the first 
LR>  MG>  of the year.
LR>  MG> 
LR>  MG>  Of course, only the Clintons are innocent while all of 
LR>  MG>  their business partners are guilty.

LR>          I'll try to remeber "plausible deniability" Matt, 
LR>          if you'll try to remember "innocent until proven 
LR>          guilty".  Which is the situation for both the 
LR>          McDougalls and the CLintons.

     At the moment only the ex-number three in DOJ and ex-Hillary 
law partner is a convicted felon.  Of course he hasn't publically 
sung on the Whitewater.  

     McDougal's ex-wife is presumably guilty of something as she 
believed she had something to trade (meaning information on 
someone else) but was turned down for a plea bargain.

     I have yet to say the Clintons are guilty of crime save a 
matter of ethics in accepting weekly (27) briefings from the RTC 
investigation of Madison Trust (and therefore Mcdougal) and in 
failure to report a felony in failing to correct Altman's lies to 
Congress regarding those briefings.

     So all we provably have are 27 instances of unethical 
behavior and one felony instance of failure to report another 
felony.  The latter is impeachable but there was a Democratic 
Congress to permit Altman to weasel out of the "Ollie North" 
felony and the Clinton's to get off the hook for their felonies, 
and Clinton not to have a high crime for impeachment purposes.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (46)
To:      All                                    13 Dec 94 12:54:00
Subject: VOTERS BY EDUCATION & IQ               

     This election was marked by intelligence and its 
concommitant educational achievement.

     The following is the breakdown from exit polls which party 
garnered the votes.

                        Voted for the              Voted for the
Education               Stupid Democrats           Republicans
___------               ----------------           --------------
no high school diploma       61%                       39%
high school graduates        47%                       53%
some college                 41%                       59%
college graduates            45%                       55%

Source: USA Today, Nov 9th.

     You will note Democrats only received a majority from the 
uneducated and (ref:  The Bell Curve) the lower IQ voters.  The 
Republicans on the other hand received majorities from the better 
educated and more intelligent voters.

     One can draw whatever conclusions one wishes from this but 
here are the facts.  But then, what did anyone expect?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (47)
To:      All                                    13 Dec 94 15:29:00
Subject: DISMANTLING WELFARE                    

                  Dismantling The Welfare State
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/13>

     Thirty years ago, under the leadership of President Lyndon
Baines Johnson the United States embarked upon a plan to
eliminate poverty in America.  This was called The Great Society.
Thirty years and 5 trillion dollars later we find ourselves with
as much poverty as ever and a dependent class.
     With the 1996 election the US found the political will
dismantle this failure as quickly as possible.  Dismantling the
programs is easy; they are simply not funded.  This will leave
the political problem of assuming people will be able to overcome
the dependency status the government gave them as quickly as the
programs are terminated.
     The temptation that will be resisted will be to slowly phase
out the programs.  This will only lead to the dependent
attempting to survive upon less and less money each year rather
than face the inevitable.  Two years from today's system to
emergency services at most as far as the federal government is
concerned is more than enough in addition to the end of mandates
upon the states immediately.
     The country is tired of seeing their money being wasted when
they have families of their own, when they have themselves, to
take care of.  Too many are now aware, thanks to Hillary Clinton,
that their taxes are paying for free medical care for others that
they can not afford.  People are certainly sick and tired of
being beat over the head with the poor to justify more of their
money for things that do no one any good.
     Of course the liberals will hurl the moral epithets of
heartless, cruel, callous, uncaring, whatever words they can come
up with in a snit of high moral dudgeon.  The press will agree
with them and give great play, not to those in a position to
respond politically, rather to those who are most creative or
emotional in their use of epithets.  We will get the impression
the political landscape has become a tent revival.
     In fact the attempt will be the same as always, to beat the
tax payer into moral submission with guilt.  What they will learn
is that the country is not only fed up with it as demonstrated in
the election but has discovered the virtue of selfishness.  The
virtue of selfishness is rewarded in tangible benefits to their
families and themselves, like taking the kids to the doctor
without having to eat beans for a week.
     People are willing, whether the liberals like it or not, to
pay for national defense.  Unlike liberals the majority believe
they are getting something tangible for their money.  They will
be turning a deaf ear to the liberal condemnation of defense.
     The people they have elected are like themselves and best
described not by liberal, not by conservative, rather by
libertarian.  And libertarian is the best description of those
who wrote the constitution as the vast majority of libertarians
are strict constructionists of the constitution.  If anyone
wishes to see the goal of the new Congress, read Atlas Shrugged;
the Objectivists have arrived.
     That may sound a bit presumptuous, jumping the gun a bit,
but it is obvious.  But it is the losers who see this better than
we do.  Why else the claim that there is no mandate for the
Contract?  If there is in fact no mandate for the Contract then
indeed the way to guarantee a Democrat sweep in 1996 is to
encourage the implementation of the Contract.
     If there were truly not enough people voting this year for
there to be a mandate then again, encourage the implementation of
the Contract and they will sweep the elections in two years.  If
the country will not like anything the new Congress does then
they can simply remain silent and win in 1996.
     All of this excuse making and denial would be completely
useless were it not that the liberals believe that the people
really do want it.  What other purpose in attempting to stop its
implementation?
     The limpest excuse of all is the claim by Democrats that
they are speaking for the working man.  A USA Today poll found
the only educational group in which they received a majority was
from those without a high school education.  As academic
performance is directly related to intelligence it is clear who
the Democrats are claiming they are going to represent, the
poorly educated and the less intelligent.
     Thus they will be concentrating upon the one socio-economic
group that has not abandoned them, the welfare class.  Not only
is that the group targeted to end very soon but it is the only
class that appears to want to be represented by Democrats
regardless of Democratic assertations.
     Of course with this will come the denials, the intellectual
arrogance, that liberalism and intelligence are the same thing
despite all the evidence being to the contrary.  
     There is no reason to pay attention to such protestations.
Listen to their words.  Reason, intellectual excellence, rigorous
thought does not come from sanctimony, epithets, and demands that
one "feel" and "care."  Those are exactly the opposite of the
intellect.  It is wallowing in emotion and expecting people to
respond to emotion with emotion.  The rational mind does not.
     The new Republicans still have a way to go.  They have to
dump the religious influence in the party even if they support
the bipartisan desire for school prayer (72%) is the reason it
should be supported.  They are moving in the right direction.
     They need to reconsider the victimless crime laws and revert
solely to direct harm to others as a justification for laws.
There are a few minor things beyond that but the largest step has
been taken.
     That the liberals are confident these will work and be the
end of the Democratic party is again expressed in their attack
upon it.  Objectivism is about to be proven to work.  Our only
job is to hold the Republican feet to the fire to assure they do
what they have said.  Then we only have to worry about interest
rates as the Fed will be raising them to try to control an
exploding economy leading to unprecedented prosperity.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (48)
To:      Ann Ross                               13 Dec 94 16:59:00
Subject: WHY?                                   

AR>          Really excellent overview.  Unfortunately, it is 
AR>          the religonutz and the rePUKElicans who combined to 
AR>          stir up sullen white bubbas to make more of their 
AR>          50's-like mistakes.  More of same militia type 
AR>          crazies are now in uniforms out in the bushes 
AR>          itching to shoot for any reason.  It is going to be 
AR>          interesting, and I do think it will get to an 
AR>          ethnic-shooting match at some point.

     You appear to be grouping yourself with the only 
identifiable intelligence level that gave democrats a majority, 
those who did not complete high school.  You would do well to 
respond with reason than with emotion.  Your time has passed.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (49)
To:      Andrew Cummins                         13 Dec 94 17:03:00
Subject: WOMEN IN COMPUTERS                     

AC>  No one has found any info about Ada Pascal.  A 
AC>  strange-sounding name, especually for 20th century America.  
AC>  Ada and Pascal are programming languages, and neither are 
AC>  named after anyone called "Ada Pascal".
AC> 
AC>  Thanks for the info on Hopper.

     Hopper funded the development of COBOL, the first high level 
language.  Ada was named after Ada Lovelace who was the 
assistant of Babbage (who tired to make the first computer work) 
and had the first thoughts on a symbolic programming language.  
Pascal as a language was named after Blaise Pascal, French 
mathematician, with no obvious connection to computing 
whatsoever.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (50)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        17 Dec 94 20:34:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

BS>     "There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, 
BS>     fights, malignant opposition, persecution, and war, and 
BS>     all evil in the state, as religion.  Let it once enter 
BS>     into our civil affairs, our government would soon be 
BS>     destroyed.  Let it once enter into our common schools, 
BS>     they would be destroyed.  Those who made our constitution 
BS>     saw this, and used the most apt and comprehensive 
BS>     language in it to prevent such a catastrophe."
BS> 
BS>     -- Wisconsin Supreme Court Associate Justice Harlow S.  
BS>  Orton, in his concurring opinion in State ex rel.  Weiss v.  
BS>  District Board School Dist.  No.  8 City of Edgerton, 76 Wis 
BS>  177, referring to the Wisconsin State constitution.

     Perhaps a true observation but that is not the point at the 
moment.  The point being that unless there is a massive 
turn-around in public opinion there are too many voters in favor 
of the idea of prayer in school for such an amendment to fail.

     It would not be the first stupidity (prohibition, income 
tax) and it certainly will not be the last.  Hunker down for the 
duration and think of a way to make money out of bootleg 
prayers.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (51)
To:      All                                    17 Dec 94 22:51:00
Subject: SECRET SERVICE NEEDS YOU               

     The Secret Service announced today, in light of the string 
of violent attempts upon the life of the president, that they 
believe there is an evil mastermind hiding and living in the 
White House.

     They cite the recent discovery of an "insane" message 
written on the mirror of the president's private bathroom.  It 
was found written in Hillary's lipstick.

     They have appealed to everyone.  If anyone knows of anyone 
who would write the following message please contact the Secret 
Service immediately.  

     The message is,

     "Stop me before I promise again."

     We urge all Americans to take this message seriously.  The 
life of our president may be at stake.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (52)
To:      All                                    18 Dec 94 09:54:00
Subject: 2ND CHANCE FOR AMERICA                 

                         Second Chance
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/18>

     "A  Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
government.  It can only exist until the voters discover that
they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.  From
that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates
promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a Democracy always collapses over loose fiscal
policy, always followed by dictatorship.

          -- Fraser Tyler on the fall of the Athenian Republic

     The question before is whether this election has given the
United States a short respite on the way down hill or a chance at
a new beginning.  Whether or not Tyler is correct and the 1994
election was in minor blip on the landscape of the majority
voting for those with the most promises of government benefits or
it can be made into a new beginning is up to us.
     There are two ways to view the 1994 election.  One is that
the electorate was indeed wise enough to see road to ever
increasing government benefits and has turned away from fiscal
collapse. The other is that it was simply a revolt by those who
were not getting enough and the politicians will learn to make
more inclusive promises come the next election.
     Sadly I think it will be the latter.  I see it much more
likely that the future will see only an end to government
regulation and the regulatory agencies to give tax reductions (a
strange concept that taxes are the government's to give) while
there not being an end to the direct financial handouts to other
voters.
     I do not see the people as a whole understanding that giving
from the treasury does not include a reduction in taxes.  Taxes
are not the treasury's money to begin with.  On the other hand,
the only general support for money give-aways is when the form of
the give-away changes but not the amount.  Granted the current
Congress may be able to start a phase out of these give-aways but
it will take years of dedication to the elimination of all
give-aways to make it stick.
     After a strong start in this Congress and possibly a phase
out schedule, whittling away at that start is more likely than
continued dedication to it's complete elimination.  Slowing the
phase out, diverting the money to other forms of hand out,
finding groups that are untouchable are all not only possible but
likely.  More specifically the opposition, yes there is
opposition, is attempting to link the paid for social security
system with the unpaid for welfare system by calling both
entitlements.
     This falsely connects an obligation the government incurred,
rightly or wrongly, in return for taxation under another name
with general revenue funds.  If anyone has a problem with the
return being greater than what was paid in they are fiscally
stupid.  That is what an investment is supposed to do and the
payments are coming from a fund completely paid for by
contributions, not the general revenues. 
     As Social Security is effectively a system that applies to
all employees in some manner it attempts to characterize all
citizens as beneficiaries of the largesse of the politicians.
     There is opposition to ending the ability of people to vote
themselves the wealth of others.  Obviously the motivation is the
ego trip of public power gained from elected office.  These
people are willing to end our republic solely for their personal
aggrandizement.  As with any Machiavellian thinker in a
democracy, it is a trivial observation that the greatest number
of votes wins.  If the money is taken from the smaller group and
given to the larger the election results are certain.
     That 1994 may be only a correction in this downward trend is
obvious.  There may have been a miscalculation is the number of
voters in each class or the Republicans may simply have falsely
convinced people on the gaining side that they were on the losing
side.  This appears to be the most common complaint from the
election losers, that the gaining side (the poor) truly deserve
the wealth of the losing side (the rich) but the poor were
tricked into voting against their own best interests.
     Read what they are writing.  Listen to what they are saying.
They have not retreated from holding there is some income level
where Americans below that level have a right to the property of
those above that level.  They are clearly saying those below that
level were tricked into voting for those who would take away
their "right" to the property of others.
     These people are intent upon returning America to the road
to collapse.  They have not changed.  They are not gone.
     Consider the official Democrat response as delivered by Bill
Clinton.  What kinds of tax cuts were he talking about?  He says
to include things like home mortgages, medical expenses, and the
cost of education into the package.  This is a clear attempt to
preserve the system of theft by simply including more
beneficiaries of the theft into the voting ranks of the thieves.
     What this country has to do is eliminate every vestige,
every example, every slightest hint that any group in this
country has any right to any unique benefit from the government.
We must establish as dogma, and persecute all heretics so to
speak, that the only purpose of government is to benefit all
equally.  The common defense is a common benefit.  Entitlement
program benefits only those entitled to them.
     And at the same time the most fundamental concept of the
thieves, that the government has a right to taxes and that taking
less in taxes is a benefit from the politicians.  A thief is no
less a thief for taking less rather than more.  The morality of
theft is not improved by leaving the victim bus fare to get
home.
     The same has to go for all special interest legislation.
That means every bit of it.  Does one business, group or
organization have a legislatively unfair advantage over another?
The answer is not new legislation.  The answer is repealing the
old legislation.  Not only does that solve the problem but it
shrinks the federal government as fewer people are needed to
enforce that legislation.
     This will require an unconditional return to the letter of
our constitution and not one whit more.  Regulation does not mean
prohibition.  All men are created equal and must have equal
protection under the law be they employer or employee, rich or
poor, sick or healthy.  A nation does seem a touch like a
marriage in that it is doomed if it is a constant battle for
special privilege to be enforced by an outside source.
     We have the chance to make this change permanent.  We have a
second lease upon the life of this country if we can hold on to
it.  A new start can always be made with a violent revolution.
This can be a new start with a peaceful revolution and just as
important, just as great a deviation from the failed social
systems of the rest of the world.
     If we retreat, if we do aggressively pursue our objective, If
we allow exceptions in the name of political expedience, if we
waiver in the least we are lost to destructive power of a
promissory democracy.  And if we succumb this time the republic
is lost.
     Social order can then only be maintained by a single minded
dictatorship which has no need to destroy the finances of the
country to maintain political power.  It is our choice, America.
Pray we make the right choice.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]





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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (53)
To:      Dave Horn                              18 Dec 94 10:16:00
Subject: BLACKS AND I.Q.                        

DH> Figures.

DH>  I read it almost as soon as it came out.  Remember the old 
DH>  IQ/race arguments of generations past?  It's little more 
DH>  than a rehash of those arguments.  But we have to agree to 
DH>  the validity of the evidence before we can accept the 
DH>  conclusion drawn from the evidence.  The problem is that 
DH>  the evidence is FAR from compelling or noncontroversial.

     With that statement you are implying that you have read the 
book when you have not read it.

     What compels you to render an opinion on the evidence out 
of ignorance of the evidence?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (54)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        18 Dec 94 10:20:00
Subject: CDC ON AIDS                            

BS> AC> Most of these are women who got AIDS from a IV-drug user or 
BS> AC> bisexual.  Some them are men who simply refuse to tell the 
BS> AC> truth about IV-drug use or homosexual activity.

BS>  You are totally out-of-date in your perception of the 
BS>  figures.  I suggest you get the report (it's free) from the 
BS>  CDC and read it.

     I would suggest you read them again without subtracting the 
same number twice to make a false point.     

BS>  The heterosexual figures were actually REDUCED by the CDC.  
BS>  Were they reacting to pressure from people like you? 

     Now there is another conspiracy in the works?

Where 
BS>  they had formerly assumed transmission was through het sex, 
BS>  there being no other explanation, they now have transferred 
BS>  thousands of cases into an "unknown" category.

     Bull.  It may be thousands but the percentage of such cases 
has been decreasing from the start of record keeping.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (55)
To:      Tom Takesian                           18 Dec 94 10:37:00
Subject: EX-STURGEON GENERAL ...                

TT>  Since the position of Surgeon General is purely a political 
TT>  one, 

     Purely political?  The Surgeon General has the same 
relationship to the nation's health programs as the Secretary of 
Defense has to national defense.

                 Rethinking the Surgeon General
                               by
                           Matt Giwer  (c) 1994

     A question occured to me some days ago.  What is the 
function of the Surgeon General?  From what we see lately it is 
to appear in public and say stupid things.  But even going back 
to the C. Everett Koop days what was he doing other than 
appearing in uniform?
     A lot of help from my friends has uncovered some details.  
It appears the Surgeon General is the head of the United States 
Public Health Service.  OK, lets have a show of hands.  How many 
people have heard of the US Public Health Service?  I don't see 
many hands.
     Lets do a little history first.  It began as the Marine 
Hospital Service in 1798 providing medical relief to merchant 
seamen and continued to 1902 in that capacity.  That explains why 
a General would wear an Admiral's uniform.  But that is history.
     Today the Surgeon General is in charge of the National 
Institute of Health, the Food and Drug Administration, the Health 
Resources Administration, the Health Services Administration, the 
Alcohol, Drug Abuse and Mental Health Administration, and the 
Center for Disease Control. 
     The position of Surgeon General is one of critical 
importance to the functioning of the government's contribution to 
the national health of this country.  Think about this a moment.
     For the Secretary of Defense there is an expectation the 
person will be knowledgeable in military affairs.  Les Aspin was 
Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.  That had the 
potential at least whether or not it was fulfilled.  
     For Attorney General (were is her Admiral uniform?) we have 
a rather tough lady who came from one of the larger and more 
crime ridden counties in the country.  I don't know if that is 
pro or con her abilities but it certainly gave her experience.
     Now for the position that affects the health of the entire 
country as much as the other two affect the defense and crime 
level we have a political hack calling for safer guns and safer 
bullets.  Were either the Secretary of Defense or the Attorney 
General to call for safer guns and safer bullets they would be 
laughed out of any confirmation hearings.  They would be 
ridiculed in the press.
     But what do we have in the most powerful and influential 
health care position in this country?  A nerf brain.  Someone who 
make Dan Quayle on his worst day look positively brilliant.  
     Joycelyn Elders is rapidly becoming a running joke.  Sex 
education starting in pre-school may or may not be a good idea 
but when she opens her mouth on the subject it appears absolutely 
absurd.  She can not give a speech without providing Rush 
Limbaugh with material for six shows.  She is the Molly Yard of 
health care.
     And we have her all for our very own.  Look back to that 
fourth paragraph.  Look at all she is responsible for running.  
Think back to anything you can remember of C. Everett Koop and 
compare that to the fool who is now in charge of all of those 
agencies.
     How can we allow an feather headed, back woods political 
hack with an MD to have such responsibility?   Who in the hell is 
responsible for her?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (56)
To:      All                                    18 Dec 94 13:00:00
Subject: THE NEW REPUBLICAN                     

       Your New Republican, Billie Jeff

QUOTE>"I told you when I announced for Governor...I'm gonna serve 
four years. I made that decision when I decided to run...I'm 
being considered a candidate for Governor.  That's the job I 
want--that's the job I'll do for the next four years."
KHOB/KHOG-TV Gubernatorial Debate 10/15/90

"I would present a five-year plan to balance the budget."
CNN's Larry King Live 6/4/92

"I want to make it very clear that this middle-class tax cut, in 
my view, is central to any attempt we're going to make to have a 
short-term economic strategy and a long-term fairness strategy, 
which is part of getting this country going again."

"I am fascinated by that proposal [private school choice, 
financial assistance via tax credits or vouchers]...I'm concerned 
[that the] Catholic Party establishment has not given you more 
encouragement.  The visionary is rarely embraced by the status 
quo."
Clinton Letter to Wisconsin State Representative Polly Williams, 10/18/90

"I am opposed to abortion and to government funding of abortions.  
We should not spend state funds on abortion because so many 
people believe abortion is wrong."
Letter to Arkansas Right to Life, 9/26/86

"There's a big difference between being pro-choice and being for 
spending tax dollars for any kind of abortion.  I don't think 
that's [spending tax dollars to subsidize abortion] appropriate."
AP 10/11/91

"I'm against term limits because I think that it takes choices 
away from voters."
Boston Globe 7/27/92

Proposes $219.52 billion in new spending.
Putting People First page 19, 6/20/92

Clinton: "I gave up the deferment."
Nightline 2/12/92

Clinton: "In 1969 while studying at Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship, I
received a draft notice which arrived late."
Speech to American Legion 8/25/92


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (59)
To:      All                                    19 Dec 94 16:54:00
Subject: ORPHANAGES & FOSTER CARE               

                    Orphanages and Foster Care
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/19>

     One of the outstanding efforts of deliberate mis-statement
(otherwise known as lies) by Democrats about the Newt Gingrich is
the one about orphanages.  It is as though these "experts" in
what the children of the "poor" need think this is a new idea.
In fact it has been around for years.
     The issue being addressed is an old one, the problems with
foster care.  Good foster care families are few and far between.
Adequate one are scarce.  Those no better and at times worse than
their own family are all too common.
     The discussion is not to take a child from a parent because
they can not afford to care for the child.  The discussion is
over the same reasons a child is removed from a parent today.
That the child is in danger of life and limb in the home.
     This is only about a better and more reliable and readily
available place to put them when they are in danger.  But to
listen to the liberals you would think it is a call to put every
child from a welfare family into an orphanage.
     But then, when there is no substance it is necessary to make
up something about the children.  And yes, an orphanage is better
than many of the "parents" some children are subjected to.  They
are even better than the worst images that can be dredged up from
the Great Depression.  And if you pay attention to the news for
the occasional foster care horror story it is better than some of
them also.
     And why will they be better?  If for no other reason than
inspections.  Pick any number of inspections one person can do in
a week.  Consolidation into group homes either reduces the number
of inspectors required or increases the frequency of inspections.
That is, states can better use limited personnel resources, doing
more with less and saving money.
     In addition to that there are a myriad of federal
regulations regarding foster homes such that it appears the
government does not want anyone to go through the effort.
Additionally, a child can not stay in any one home very long so
they are constantly in a state of musical homes.  The dollar
value is marginally the extra expense of the child.
     The alternative that has been discussed for years is
precisely professional homes for these children, more commonly
called orphanages.
     So in this blitz of deliberate misrepresentation the
liberals are condemning an idea that has been discussed by
professional social workers for years.  I do not find that
strange.  i find it exemplary of liberalism.
     As to the cost, that will vary by state and by the region
within the state.  Numbers as high as $36,000 have been put in
print with the presumption that if the mother (rarely are parents
plural mentioned) were given half that much, etc. etc, etc.  The
heart bleeds as much over the misrepresentation as the creativity
of the story.
     I do not doubt there is some place in this country that some
group home for children does in fact cost that much.  More likely
such "homes" are more commonly referred to as institutions for
the retarded or seriously handicapped or the like.
     I have not researched that.  I simply reason by analogy in
that the average cost per year for prison inmates is $60,000.  If
someone is going to try to make the point that it costs $36,000
or anything close then one is going to have to explain how group
eating and housing with wholesale purchases, using local schools
and medicaid, is going to cost more than an existing family can
afford.
     There are always economies of scale for children.  The more
you have the less they cost per child.  Clothes are handed down.
Even if private medical care the insurance gets cheaper in the
same manner that group insurance is cheaper than single purchaser
insurance.  There is no need for professional guards as in a
prison nor any major security system.  So where do all these
imagined costs come from?
     There is a chance that those costs are estimated or in fact
real based upon the teachers' union are demanding the staff be
loaded with PhDs at some ratio per child.  But when the
requirements are dropped by the federal government along with the
return of block grants it will be up to the states to decide if
they wish to kiss the teachers' union's collective ass.
     In any event we have three deliberate misrepresentations.
The first is that Gingrich has proposed anything new.  The second
is that it would apply as a normal alternative to the child
staying with the parent.  And third the cost.  I would say it is
par for the liberal course.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (60)
To:      All                                    19 Dec 94 19:16:00
Subject: IT IS NOT YOURS TO GIVE                

                     It is not yours go give
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/18>

     The title is a line from a story related by Daniel Boone in
his autobiography or, as he said, by Himself.  It the punch line
or the message a constituent gave Congressman Boone over money
voted by Congress to help a family in DC made destitute by a
fire.  He objected that it was not Congress's money to give.
     As related Boone goes through the Christian, good deed,
compassionate responses, the "it only cost him a penny" argument
but they did not move the constituent. He held he had a contract
with the government and that it was the constitution.  If it was
not in the constitution the government was not permitted to do
it.  The money was not theirs to give.
     Now comes the 104th Congress with exactly that spirit.  The
people's money is not their's to give if it is not in the
constitution.  Literally hundreds of "it only costs you pennies"
agencies, activities, functions of the government are on the
chopping block because it is not the government's to give.
     For the few real and primarily pseudo intellectuals the
one's of interest are the Corporation for Public Broadcasting,
the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment
for the Humanities.  Not surprisingly the whine is for the
"others" who benefit.  The children will lose Barney.  The
unwashed will not be able to afford the performing arts.
Unidentified others will not be able to afford the cost of
keeping a symphony orchestra in every city, a ballet company in
every neighborhood, a mime on every street corner.
     The children will no longer be able to see the Purple
Pedophile.  There is hardly a commercial network in the country
that would not jump at it being available.  Given the promotional
and commercial tie-ins the Barney people could buy time and still
make a huge profit.  And why would they focus on "for the
children" when we are really talking about such great national
priorities such as The Frugal Gourmet, Sit and Be Fit, 1001 and
one things to make from re-cycled low calorie snack food bags?
     And they want the subsidies of orchestras and ballet
companies to continue so the poor can continue to pay only the
low balcony price of $35 a seat plus parking.  A night at the
opera with the Marx Brothers might be worth that but for two
people plus parking and a couple beers in the lobby priced like
six packs you can get 6 CD versions of the same opera by the the
world's greatest performances and stop it when you need a head
break.  It isn't the same thing but then, what price realism?
     In other words, subsidies are only to preserve prices that
are already out of reach of those the pseudo intellectuals are
pretending they benefit.
     But the issue is not whether there is any honesty in the
crocodile tears being shed.  The issue is clearly that no place
in the United States Constitution does it demean itself to
authorizing the support of a dinosaur shaped like Rush Limbaugh
nor of your friendly, neighborhood mime.  Even the most creative
constructionist would hold Barney would be a better instrument of
national defense by sending him in place of Jimmie Carter.
Besides, Geneva is already planning to outlaw Jimmie.
     These three programs are only three drops in the bucket of
the malfeasance in office, the unconstitutional spending of the
federal government.  Three drops are not much but remember, the
bucket is already overflowing.  These three drops and all of the
rest of the drops are in line for zero funding if the president
will not go along with abolishing them entirely.
     And those in line for the old zero funding trick often
applied to essential and constitutional defense projects by the
liberals are things like the extra-constitutional Department of
Agriculture.  The Tennessee Valley Authority along with the Rural
Electrification Authority along with the Army Corp of Engineers
are on their way to the dustbin of unconstitutionality.
     Social Security will eventually be phased out as sell you
and your employer a better deal without question and in fact
could not remain competitive without a much better deal than the
government offers.  Where all the Social Security payments have
been squandered should be audited in great detail.  The retired
should be receiving at least twice what they are receiving now
and the principle should be available for inheritance to the
children.  Yes, the magnitude of the federal rip-off is that
great despite what you have heard.
     The constitution is not a contract.  The constitution is not
a list of suggestions.  The constitution is a list of very
specific things the federal government is permitted to do and
none other.  The penalty for exceeding those powers is
dissolution of the federal government.  That it may occur
peacefully is to the benefit of the country.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Clinton taxes gas.  Price of beans soars.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (65)
To:      All                                    20 Dec 94 11:12:00
Subject: CLINTON TAX CUT SAMPLER                

               [A Clinton Tax Cut sampler]

     12/15/92

          Economic Summit, taxes will have to be raised across 
the board instead of the promised middle class tax cut.

     Week of 5 January

     Clinton reneges upon the middle class tax reduction because 
the deficit is $82 billion less than he planned for.

     Les Aspin during confirmation hearings as Secretary of 
Defense holds that Clinton's budget was unrealistically low and 
offered as a campaign ploy.

     14 January 1993

     Clinton says he will continue the inhumane Bush policy of 
returning Haitians to Haiti.

     Rush Limbaugh TV show runs film clip of Clinton promising 
middle class tax cut.

     15 January 1993

     CBS evening news run different film clip of Clinton 
promising a middle class tax cut and clips of three other 
promises now reneged upon.

     24 January 1993

     Les Aspin on Face the Nation says (for some reason) that the 
middle class tax cut is looking less likely (apparently he 
considered it a promise) due to the deficit continuing to be at a 
level lower than Clinton planned for.  He goes on to say that 
there will be taxes on consumption and energy.  This tones down 
his confirmation hearing statement of the week of Jan 5 (above) 
where he suggested it was just a vote getting promise.

     25 January 1993

      "I will never raise taxes on the middle class to pay for 
these programs."  Rather than raise income taxes on the middle 
class, Clinton now plans a tax on energy.  You gets what you 
votes for.  This was admitted by Stephanopoulos today.

     2.1.93

     ABC Evening News

     Plans are solidifying for a major tax increase and deficit 
increase of at least 10%.  The plans are for $30B in new spending 
to "jump start an economy that has already started.

     2.2.93

     Clinton announces the middle class tax increase will be on 
the order of $20-30B and will not reduce the deficit.

     2.10.93

     Town Hall meeting.  Clinton says he can not rule out a tax 
increase for the middle class.  He suggests he could use smoke 
and mirrors but then "in ten years twenty cents of every tax 
dollar will be spent on the deficit."  [Presently 25 to 30 cents 
of every tax dollar is being spent on the deficit.]

     At the "Town Hall" on 2/10/93 he said "If people want to 
invest in America [the phrase he used to describe his programs] 
then there will have to be sacrifice."  Sacrifice of course 
refering to higher taxes.

     2.12.93

     CNN runs back to back clips of Bush saying "when he says he 
will not raise taxes on the middle class, watch your wallet" and 
of Clinton discussing the planned increase in middle class taxes.

     2.15.93

     Clinton promotes is $160 Billion tax increase package.

     2.20.93

     Clinton radio address.  "I will not raise taxes without 
cutting spending.

     On TV Clinton says, "No one, not even the 1.2% of the 
population who are the only ones who will have their income rates 
increased, should pay one penny in additional taxes without there 
being spending cuts."

          3.23.93

     Congress passes Clinton's taxes on Social Security benefits.



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Hillary "health on wheels" Clinton.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (67)
To:      All                                    20 Dec 94 17:29:00
Subject: THERE'S PORK IN ALL THE B              

     There's Pork in all the Bills

     [There's Whisky in the Jar]

As I was goin' back home, to my home town voters
Met the hard worker and his money he was toutin'
I first produced me tax bill, then produced me tax form
Sayin' stand and deliver for I am an old time lib'ral

chorus

Praise to old LBJ
And to the Kennedies
FDR who's sacred
There's pork in all the bills.

He counted out his money, paid a pretty penny, 
Put it in me pocket and I took it to me voters, 
And they sighed and they swore, they always would elect me 
The divil take the voters, for they never can be faithful

[Chorus]

Early in November before I had me coffee
I rise up and the networks and likewise the newspapers
Well I called upon me voters but they took away me office
Couldn't do but whine as a lame duck they had made me

[chorus]

Some take delight in the workin' and the savin'
Others take delight in the votin' for their country
Ah but I take delight in the juice of the barley
Courtin' pretty women in the halls of the Congress

[chorus]

And now I've come and gone and no one's left to save me
Now I'm faced with workin', and livin' like the people
Wasted me life buyin' of the votes of unfaithful people
Now I've got nothin' but blamin' all the people

[chorus]

[chorus]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn't need a gun.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (68)
To:      Bert Byfield                           20 Dec 94 21:26:00
Subject: CORRECT, POLITICALLY?                  

BB>  MG>      I leave you to the tender mercies of Ken Pangborn, my evil
BB>  MG> twin.

BB>  He wishes.  But to call him your evil twin is to imply that 
BB>  you are the good one, 

     Compared to Ken?  Certainly I am.  I get bored after 
grinding to a pulp.  Ken eats the body.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (69)
To:      All                                    20 Dec 94 23:55:00
Subject: END OF THE GAME                        

                       The End of the Game
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/21>

     Maybe the 1994 election was not the end of fantasies about
the poor.  Maybe it was not the end of wild imaginings about
social problems.  It might have been the end of theory as opposed
to fact as the basis of law.  It was the end of the pretention
that some human beings are really not human.
     For three decades law has been based upon the presumption
that not only the poor but specifically blacks ("negras" to quote
LBJ who started it) are incapable of acting like responsible
human beings.  The presumption of law has been that they are
bound by their past, that they are incapable of learning, that
they must be cared for like children by the government.
     These "darkies" are just smiling, happy people who, without
hand outs from whites would do nothing but die of starvation in
the streets.  They need to be kept like pets, fed by their
superiors and if turned out on their own would die because they
never learned to fend for themselves.  Excuse me.  Did I carry
the analogy too far?
     There is no other basis for the presumption of the need for
welfare than their inability to care for themselves.
     The worst of this presumption is that it is partially true.
The poor, regardless of the racial implication in the political
realm, literally are not able to deal with the modern world.  The
social policies initiated by LBJ, Pox Be Upon Him, have assured
that an identifiable ethnic group will be created, the dregs of
the dregs will congregate.
     The results is that we see today.  But the means of dealing
with that is ending.  Excuses are no longer being accepted.  No
matter what was done to their ancestors an excuse for their
behavior.  No longer is poverty an excuse for crime.  No longer
is a single parent childhood an excuse for violence.
     Those were never causes.  They were never more than liberal
excuses for what was really happening.  What was and is really
happening is that people who register negative on in Richter
Scale of IQ have been doing the best they can.  They have been
trying.  They are real human beings trying to follow the rules as
best they understand them.
     What needs be done is to pass a law that the likes of Al
Sharpton are in criminal violation to exist.  Liberal apologists
who refuse to hold their constituency to minimal standards of
decency need be declared enemies of all mankind.  Anyone holding
a human being was forced to do anything by circumstances without
accountability needs be hoisted on their own pointy hat petard
and set down on it rather ungentlely.
     It is about time these people were treated with respect
rather than the pretension that they are so incapable of self
respect that only government actions can give them respect.
Sure, there is some secret their entire income is from the
government.  Maybe no one notices food stamps are not dollars.
     People will now be given the chance to act like human beings
for the first time in 30 years.  People will be permitted the
dignity of success or failure on their own.  Ah, here comes the
liberal whine.
     But if they can not the children will suffer.  Children?  Is
every indignity upon the parent justified by the children?  Of
course it is, if you are a liberal.  And when today's children
are tomorrow's parents at age 14 so too shall they be cared for
until the umpteenth generation.
     The evil of this kind of system was recognized by LBJ, the
Poobah, and he and his VP Humphrey were against it.  They had a
dream of ending poverty in America.  They said so.  They did not
have a dream of an eternal poverty class with eternal welfare.
     They believed in an end to poverty as they said.  They were
willing to commit the government to ending it once and for all in
a huge effort that created our current deficit and national debt.
At no time did they propose to pay one penny to the poor that
would not get them out of poverty.
     There is no reason to presume they had any idea or intention
to pour money down the drain of any system that did not reduce
poverty with an eye to their goal of eliminating it.  Yet despite
the evidence that began accumulating immediately the federal
welfare system has failed completely.  And no liberal has been
willing to either admit that nor to agree to terminate the failed
programs.
     Now there is a Congress that is willing to stop throwing
good money after bad.  It is willing to end the pretention that
welfare makes the least difference.  The game is over.  Welfare
never worked.  Welfare does not work now.  There will be no
pretensions that it will work in the future.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Chelsea Clinton, the ZPG poster child.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (70)
To:      All                                    21 Dec 94 16:58:00
Subject: ENVIRONMENTAL WHINES                   

                      Environmental Whines
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/21>

     Comes now the 104th Congress that sees more evil than good
in environmental legislation.  How sweet it is.  A prime example
of unconstitutional rape and pillage of human rights comes up for
renewal during its session, the Endangered Species Act (ESA).
And the whining has just begun.
     The pissing and moaning of the tree hugging, lion petting,
environment loving amputees has just started.  Do you love the
sound of coyotes howling at the moon?  You have heard nothing
until you hear the chorus of the Gaia lovers baying to the moon
goddess.
     They are going to bring out their tarot cards, meditate on
their crystals, read the crumbs of their bran muffins and declare
the end of all life on earth because of Republicans.
     Lets me use the ESA as an example not only of the
environmental movement but of the entire new political reality in
Washington.  There are three possibilities; it is re-enacted as
is or strengthened, it is weakened, it is not renewed at all.
President Clinton has two possibilities, sign or veto.
     In the first case he signs the same or a stronger bill and
the environmental folks praise Clinton and condemn the
Republicans.  In the second case Clinton either goes along with a
weakened ESA or he ESA is not renewed.  In the latter case
Clinton need not even bother with a veto.
     Not only does the new political reality apply to reduced and
zero funding bills, it also applies to new laws and re-enactment
of old laws.  Watering down a bill and not passing a bill make
the veto a useless presidential tool to powerful Republican tool.
Either the president agrees to modifying extra-constitutional
powers and laws of agencies or he vetoes and zero funds that
agency.
     There is no law, no constitutional item, requiring funding
for an agency be separate from laws authorizing that agency.  The
president can simply be sent a bill rescinding the assault
weapons ban and the funding for the BATF in the same bill.  The
veto is powerless in that matter.
     It would not be open to change by a line item veto either.
That applies to items on different subjects in the same bill.  It
applies to a swimming pool in a Congressman's district as part of
the Defense appropriation bill.  It does not apply to directly
related items.
     Thus we have a minimum two years hiatus on the travesties of
the nature worshippers are wont to work upon humans.  It feels
good.  Do you want to preserve nature?  Inflate your beaver again
and carry it around the Capitol Building.  It will get you a few
of your guaranteed fifteen minutes of fame, the outrage of your
fellow weak minds, maybe a few attempted panhandles from the
local bums.
     And the mood of this Congress is not to throw a sop to the
conservatives in requiring an impact statement that wastes money
and can not fail to come down on the side of the mindless beasts
of the field.  The mood is to eliminate completely what is not
liked.
     It is simply a matter of priorities.  The environment is not
a sacred mission.  The environment is not holy.  Putting people
first means human rights come first and that animals have no
rights.  The environment has no rights.
     There are no longer brain dead liberals in power to believe
the irrational claims of the imminent end of the world should a
dung eating beetle or a rat vanish from the face of the earth.
Ask any New Yorker.  The extinction of cockroaches or the end of
human life on earth; it is a decision best left to Solomon.  As
to why beetles never eat liberals is a question better left for
the next life but it would certainly put the average person on
the side of preserving the beetle.
     But we have hardly heard the beginnings of the whining.  In
fact you would have to have been paying attention to have heard
the beginning of the whining that will soon become a chorus of
whines around the country.  In the next few months we will be
regaled with the most absurd public antics to make us aware of
the plight of some thing in the middle of no where that you would
crush with a rock if you found it inside your home.
     The good news is that people will cease to be deprived of
liberty and property with or without due process for the sake of
something pictured on a can of RAID.  The most rabid of the
whackos are going to declare war on the Republicans, call them
uncaring, heartless, enemies of mankind.  Sane people will call
Republicans landslide material for their position.
     The environmental movement is now a dead issue.  Would it
have the grace to die quietly it would save them the indignity of
accepting less than they demand or getting nothing at all.  It is
truly a delight to see the political influence of these nutcases
in the trashbin of American politics.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

  P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Clinton's Great Grandpappy, Col. Jubilation T. Cornpone

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+++■■■■■ r_941225 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (79)
To:      Chris Walden                           21 Dec 94 19:26:00
Subject: AIDS STATS.                            

CW>   Would you mind sending to me via a post the CDC stats on 
CW>   AIDS that you have?  Or any AIDS statistics that you may 
CW>   have.  Thanks.

     I am still trying to recover that kind of information right 
now.  The computer it is on is still in the garage from the move.  
The MMWR are around some place.  

     It has only been three months since the move.  

     When I get current figures again, I will post them here.

     Patience is mine, frustration is yours.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (80)
To:      Linda Terrell                          21 Dec 94 19:28:00
Subject: THE NAKED PRESIDENT                    

LT> MG> LT> MG>  the momentary approval of the crowds.  Long life Bill
LT> MG> LT> MG>  Clinton!  Long may he suck up to us a
LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT>    Codswollop.
LT> MG>
LT> MG>      Spoken like a true liberal.

LT>        You have never met a Moderate you liked.

     Be thee either hot or cold.  Be thee lukewarm etc.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Get Janet a fiddle.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (81)
To:      Paul Ford                              22 Dec 94 02:08:00
Subject: MURRAY & HERRNSTEIN                    

PF>          Actually, I *do* believe that IQ is genetic.  Go 
PF>          ahead, laugh.  There is a large amount of data that 
PF>          does support this idea.  It just fails to prove that 
PF>          intelligence is racial.  It isn't.  IQ is a seperate 
PF>          genetic code all it's own.  There are smart black 
PF>          people and there are less-than intelligent black 
PF>          people.  There are smart white people and there are 
PF>          less-than smart white people.  This is true of any 
PF>          other race of people on this planet.  The Human 
PF>          Genome Project is currently being conducted by the 
PF>          National Institutes of Health.  Nothing here is 
PF>          certain until they can map the human genetic code 
PF>          and unravel the mystery completely, but the 
PF>          evidence of Murray and Herrnstein's work fails to 
PF>          prove that IQ is only high in a certain race of 
PF>          people.

     Allow me to borrow from a famous phrase in the computer 
business.  

     Read The Fine Book.

     If you do you will have a rational comment to make.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (83)
To:      All                                    22 Dec 94 09:57:00
Subject: Elite Few BBS with OLR                 

     Ex-EF Members Achtungen sie mir or something like that.

     Over the last three years I have run across several people 
who I first met on The Elite Few, a local DC BBS that originated 
as the "Religion and Politics".  

     Many of us ex-participants are now scattered all over the 
country.  This message is an attempt to get the word to everyone.

     It has finally upgraded (and under new management, 
Kyle/Garnitz of Pedaler's Palace) to having an off line reader.  
                  vvvvvvvvvvvvvv
The new number is 1-703-237-0401.  It still has its cantankerous 
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
attitudes and automatic disregard of dumb messages.

     Anyway, to everyone who was once there, you can at least 
drop back and say hi.  

     To everyone, if you want to try a board that passively 
discourages the low IQ types (they just go away) give it a call.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Torah! Torah! Torah!"  A battle cry to frighten Arabs.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (84)
To:      All                                    22 Dec 94 16:37:00
Subject: IMPOSSIBLE DECISIONS                   

     October             |    December
                         |
A middle class tax cut   |
appears impossible       |     to avoid.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Read "Sleeping Your Way to the Top" by Hillary Clinton

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+++■■■■■ r_941227 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (132)
To:      Jim Higgins                            22 Dec 94 21:25:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

JH> MG>  Nonsense.  We do it all the time.  Remember the case of the 
JH> MG>  Russian child who wanted to stay here when his parents went 
JH> MG>  home? His uncle sponsored his asylum bid.  He is back in 
JH> MG>  Russia.  A child is not competent to make the decision, 
JH> MG>  period.

JH>  But was he *BORN* here?...  In any case, agreed...  when I 
JH>  am wearing my "Higgins" hat...  but when I am wearing my "SC 
JH>  Fuzzy Liberal" hat it affects my thinking.  I was wearing my 
JH>  "SC" hat earlier and forgot to tell you.

     Said child had the right to claim political asylum IF such 
child were deemed competent to make such a decision by the 
courts.  

JH> MG> Precisely, but the child goes.

JH> Most (like 99.9%) of the time the parents will make that
JH> decision, yes.

     And that is all that matters.

JH> MG>  The real point is that one more requirement among many has 
JH> MG>  been placed upon state services and there is no over-riding 
JH> MG>  federal constitution consideration.  Try earning $50,000 a 
JH> MG>  year and demanding welfare under the equal protection 
JH> MG>  clause.  No, it is legally means tested as one of many 
JH> MG>  requirements.  Legal residency is simply one more 
JH> MG>  requirement.  Try getting your kid in school while refusing 
JH> MG>  to prove immunization.  That is also legitimately 
JH> MG>  regulated.

JH>  You are rearguing the case along the same lines which 
JH>  failed to win it years ago and which Prop 187 attempts to 
JH>  correct.  You need to get into the spirit of what I am 
JH>  saying.  Plant your tongue firmly in your cheek for 
JH>  starters...  and keep reading.

     The case was by Texas in 1982 was it was rejected on the 
grounds that Texas had not demonstrated itself harmed as opposed 
to potential harm of the law.  The harm in California has been 
fully documented as it has been in Florida.

     Just yesterday 12/21 an appeals court rejected Florida's 
suit for $1.5 billion claiming it was political rather than 
legal.  Chiles has said he will take it to the Supreme Court.  
Should they hold it is political then the state is free to 
"politically" refuse state services as it is only a political 
matter, neither legal nor constitutional.

JH> MG>  Criminals are also limited in their rights in many ways 
JH> MG>  despite the equal protection clause.  Simply finding an 
JH> MG>  illegal in this country is the discovery of a crime in 
JH> MG>  progress and can be treated in exactly the same manner as 
JH> MG>  discovery a burglar.

JH>  I presented my case *VERY* poorly.  I agree with the 
JH>  position that illegal aliens are criminals.  But in an 
JH>  effort to preserve Prop 187 from a total gutting at the 
JH>  hands of the SC I think California must adopt the position 
JH>  I presented above even if it is tongue in cheek.  To do any 
JH>  less is to risk having Prop 187 overturned as 
JH>  unconstitutional in the eyes of a revisionist court.

JH> JH>  The real point of Prop 187 is (IMHO) that the Feds are
JH> JH>  responsible for patrolling the borders and their failures
JH> JH>  should not create a burden at the state level...  or any
JH> JH>  level for that matter.

     If this is the position you mean I would easily overturn it 
187.  The federal government can not be sued to enforce its own 
laws by individuals or by states.  Once the courts are out of the 
loop, the options are 1) for the individual, insurrection and 2) 
for the states, secession.

     That is in line with the first decision against Florida as 
secession is a political matter.

JH>  While I realize your position is to give no quarter, this 
JH>  is a case of 7/8ths of a loaf being better than none.  I 
JH>  mean, how many parents will *REALLY* leave their children?

     One goes into a political position prepared to negotiate but 
such matters are carefully put on the table.  One never goes into 
a legal match with anything on the table.  To a judge, anything 
on the table is automatically lost and how much more is up to 
him.

JH>  Next we move to amend the Constitution to deny citizenship 
JH>  to those born to aliens illegally in our country.

     This would not address the old Texas or new Florida cases.  
Services must be denied to those who can not demonstrate 
citizenship.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (133)
To:      Jim Higgins                            22 Dec 94 21:45:00
Subject: FACE ON AIDS                           

JH>  MG>  That is what I am trying to find out right now.  I lost my 
JH>  MG>  contact at CDC around the time the estimates were being 
JH>  MG>  changed.

JH>  I wonder whether any of these are honest attempts at 
JH>  estimates, numbers arising from a hidden agenda, or just 
JH>  plain old wild-assed guesses by folks who don't have a 
JH>  clue.

     Over the years I have found the numbers to be honest BUT ...

     The dishonesty has been in the changing definition over the 
years.  Do you realize the latest change means that more people 
will be surviving AIDS?  The marker of being HIV+ was removed.  
When that was a criteria or two or more ARC diseases as at first 
were in place the few survivors were legendary.  

     But with this change there will be hope where there is no 
hope as nothing will have changed to the real disease only to the 
definition.

JH>  MG>  Whatever the current estimate it should be closer to the 
JH>  MG>  lower number.  The problem with rate is that we have barely 
JH>  MG>  10 years of reliable data upon which to base estimates.  In 
JH>  MG>  the last two the expected increase in real cases leveled 
JH>  MG>  off drastically even though the political change in 
JH>  MG>  definition should have increased the cases.

JH>  Couched language, definition shifting, and the like have 
JH>  been the hallmarks of discussion of HIV.  It may well be 
JH>  part of a move to reduce estimates so as to reduce 
JH>  projected care expense...  a tie-in to Hillary's failed 
JH>  health care reform package.  We're looking at a cool 500 
JH>  billion and growing if the higher numbers above are real...  
JH>  and "only" 60 billion (and still growing) if the lower ones 
JH>  are used.

     Reducing a projection does not change actual costs.  

     The cost of AIDS care is something that has to be rethought 
in light of reality.  The disease is like trying to treat bubonic 
plague without anti-biotics.  It is not treatable.  All money is 
wasted.  Pain killers are the only rational expense and that is 
out of compassion.  If I were king I would prosecute AZT 
prescribers as charlatans.

JH>  MG>  I am trying to get a handle on the new growth rate and have 
JH>  MG>  been for months now.  That is why I have been silent on the 
JH>  MG>  subject for a while.  When I get it I will be posting it.  
JH>  MG>  I am certain it is much lower than the doubling per year 
JH>  MG>  that was the trend.

JH>  I suspect so also, since it is behaviorally related and the 
JH>  pool of those behaving as required to spread it is not 
JH>  growing much.

     Precisely the point.  There are two approaches to wiping out 
sleeping sickness in Africa.  One is the best medical and 
epidemological efforts we can finance.  The other is shoes.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (134)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        22 Dec 94 22:07:00
Subject: FACE ON AIDS                           

BS> MG>      The reason is that it failed to get loose in the purely  
BS> MG> heterosexual community.  There is enough experience now to  
BS> MG> categorically state the only venues of transmission of the  
BS> MG> disease are anal sex, blood to blood transmission, and 
                    11111111  222222222222222222222222222

BS> MG> vaginal  sex to females from infected males not vice versa 
        3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
BS> MG> Of course  there are always going to be rare exceptions but 
BS> MG> rare exceptions not make an epidemic.

BS>  You obscure one very important mode of transmission, which 
BS>  is through lesions.  This can involve the virus or infected 
BS>  cells found in blood, semen, vaginal lubricatants, and 
BS>  various other body fluids.

     The number of cases of this means of transmission please.

BS>  The penis can have a variety of lesions, often not 
BS>  noticeable.  These can be due to disease, or can occur even 
BS>  during intercourse if there is not sufficient lubrication.

     How does this differ from 2 and 3?

BS>  Your list gives the impression that the male can do 
BS>  anything he might want except anal sex and blood-blood 
BS>  activities and be totally safe.  That's not true at all, as 
BS>  many men have found to their dismay.

     And what about item 3?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (135)
To:      All                                    22 Dec 94 23:24:00
Subject: STRANGE JUSTICE A HOAX!                

 ##########  Original From: FRANK SULICK
 # STOLEN #             To: ALL
 #  STUFF #    Date/Number: 12/21/94 - 0001456
 ##########             On: DOC'S - 0004 - Baychat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Today, <12-21-1994> Gordon Liddy had David Brock on his radio show as a
guest and the subject was to discuss the book "Strange Justice - The
Selling of Clarence Thomas" by Jane Mayer and Jill Abramson, both of
whom work as reporters for the Wall Street Journal.

David Brock is the author of the book, "The Real Anita Hill" and is an
investigative reporter.

Mr. Brock spent a month going through Strange Justice and while he was
at it, contacted many of the sources quoted by the authors Mayer and
Abramson.

As a result of his investigation, Mr. Brock concluded and made it quite
clear the book is a "HOAX" and a "LIE."  He said he found misleading,
false and erroneous statements on virtually every page and then went on
to sight several examples.

He contacted the owner of the video tape shop who supposedly said
Clarence Thomas rented porno tapes all the time.  The owner told him
that this was not true and the quotes attributed to him in the book
Strange Justice is a lie.

The woman who supposedly said the walls of Thomas' apartment was
"plastered with pin ups of scantily clad women" told Brock that she
never said any such thing.  In fact when she was sent the galley proofs
of the book, she told the authors that she was quoted incorrectly.


Subsequently she received a revised set of galley proofs, quoting her
correctly.  Later when she saw the book, the original and false quotes
were back in the book!

This woman claimed  that she saw only one pinup in Thomas'
apartment....but subsequent investigation by Brock thoroughly
discredited this woman as totally unreliable.  In any case, Thomas' room
was NOT plastered with pinups as reported in the book.

Brock claims he checked out a great many of the allegations and their
sources in the book and found every one of them to be either false or
totally lacking in credibility!

Brock was asked about ABC's role in jumping on the bandwagon  when the
book Strange Justice was first published.  He stated that evidently
ABC's investigation to confirm the content of the book was superficial
and poorly done.  In other words, ABC in effect gave the book credibilty
by interviewing the author's on TV and did so without CHECKING THE
ACCURACY OF THE BOOK'S CONTENT!

Brock has sent a written copy of his findings to ABC television, the
President of ABC television, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times
and Peter Jennings.....he has also asked each of them for a meeting to
discuss his findings and thus far they haven't responded.

Brock went on to say, a gigantic hoax has been perpetrated on the
American public and the book is nothing but lies!

Thus far he has been greeted with a vast silence from ABC, the Wall
Street Journal, New York Times and Jennings.  Brock's opinion is that
they are hoping it  will go away and this monstrous lie will stand.

He felt that what ABC and Jennings did in giving the book Strange
Justice so much TV coverage for two days was a form of political
correctness on their part!

His written findings are published in the current issue of the American
Spector, which is in the mail.

Weeks ago, Brock had invited Mayer and Abramson to meet with him and
discuss his findings in a public forum.....thus far they have not
returned his calls.

He mentioned that it is well known that most of the writers on the
Wall Street Journal are liberals whereas the editorial staff are
conservatives and for some time there has been a running "war" between
the two groups.

He did not know the motives of Mayer and Abramson in writing the book,
but it was obvious from his comments that they were intent on doing a
job on Judge Thomas.  "They" couldn't defeat Thomas' nomination to the
Supreme Court, but possibly their motive was to put pressure on Judge
Thomas to be less of a conservative on the bench!

In retrospect, I'm sorry I didn't tape the interview, since a trans-
cription of the radio program would have made excellent reading in this
conference....

I have a copy of the book Strange Justice, and I plan on putting a large
note on the cover page, "This book is a hoax and one big lie!"

It is also obvious that working for the Wall Street Journal doesn't
prevent people like Mayer and Abramson from lying.

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they were fired from the
Wall Street Journal for this breech of journalistic integrity and
honesty! .....especially as the book Strange Justice gets the publicity
it so richly deserves.....namely that it is a hoax and a lie!


*****************
*  * * * * k *  *
*****************

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (145)
To:      Jim Higgins                            23 Dec 94 15:42:00
Subject: A BOMB STAMP                           

JH>  DG>  Just another display of his disregard for the military, 
JH>  DG>  past and present.

JH>  How do you figure that?  The development of the bomb was a 
JH>  civilian effort.  It was handed to the military when 
JH>  finished and the military did was deliver it, not a really 
JH>  big deal actually.  If that is what the stamp was about it 
JH>  should never have been created.

     It has been some time so I do not remember the name of the 
General in charge of the Manhattan Project. 

     What is it that leads you to believe it was a civilian 
project?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Sol Steinberg                          23 Dec 94 15:48:00
Subject: BLACKS AND I.Q.                        

SS> DH> I read it almost as soon as it came out.  Remember the old 
SS> DH> IQ/race arguments of generations past?  It's little more 
SS> DH> than a rehash of those arguments.  But we have to agree to 
SS> DH> the validity of the evidence before we can accept the 
SS> DH> conclusion drawn from the evidence.  The problem is that the 
SS> DH> evidence is FAR from compelling or noncontroversial.

SS>  I believe the evidence is correct to the extent that it 
SS>  shows Negroes score lower on IQ tests than Caucasians, and 
SS>  that IQ is greatly dependent on genetics.  However, the leap 
SS>  to - Negroes have genetically lower IQs is not scientific, 
SS>  nor a valid conclusion.  

     Since it is heritable and applies to the race what other 
than genetics would you propose?  That has not been tested and 
found wanting that is.

The same sort of data came from the 
SS>  tests given to draftees/enlistees for World War I.  The same 
SS>  conclusions were drawn by many, but they ignored that 
SS>  Northerners scored higher than Southerners, and Northern 
SS>  Negroes scored about the same as Southern Whites.

     One simply points out that the more intelligent migrate to 
the cities.  That you can find in any country of any race.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (148)
To:      Chris Walden                           23 Dec 94 19:55:00
Subject: BELL CURVE                             

CW>   I was in the store tonight, and saw the book, The Bell 
CW>   Curve (or something close to that), and was wondering 
CW>   before I bought it, what is the topic of the book?  Is it 
CW>   about race vs.  i.q.?  Is it a good book?  Thanks, your 
CW>   replies will determine whether or not I purchase the book.  
CW>   Is it anything like Pave With Good Intentions, by Gerrard 
CW>   Taylor?

     It is about IQ as a predicter of most all aspects of what is 
considered to be success in our society.  It is an excellent book 
if the subject interests you.  And if the subject does interest 
you then you need to read it as it is going to be around for 
years. 

     If you don't really care, get on the waiting list at the 
library.

     The IQ difference by race is discussed primarily in chapter 
13 and a bit in 14 out of twenty five or so chapters.  

     The information provided does offer a better explanation for 
why certainly races are under and over represented in socially 
negative areas than whites but it does not make any 
representation as to such things being racial, only IQ related 
and the subsequent subjects show it cuts across racial lines.

     
     

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (155)
To:      All                                    23 Dec 94 23:41:00
Subject: BELL CURVE                             

ML>    This book is a great addition to any conservative 
ML>  library.  To me, it stresses the value of hard work and 
ML>  education.  The value of earning it rather than it being 
ML>  handed out to you...
ML> 
ML>    Any one else have the same impression?

     Not at all. 

     These findings are exactly contrary to both the liberal and 
the conservative viewpoints.  Both sides have held that people 
can improve their lot in life.  They have simply proposed 
different means.

     Carrying the book to its logical conclusion there is nothing 
we can do for them according to either prescription.  They are 
not going to either change or improve.  The further society 
segregates by IQ the further behind they are going to be left.  

     And that means the less able to earn a living they are going 
to be.  The less able to be productive or the contribute they are 
going to be.

     Keeping that in mind, instilling the work ethic is not going 
to do them a bit of good as there is very little work they are 
capable of.

     Neither Head Start nor nutrition programs nor job training 
is not going to do them a bit of good as IQ is primarily 
heritable -- at least more consistantly heritable than anything 
else.

     So what are we going to do in light of the simple fact that 
other than, as the authors propose, simplifying the rest of 
society to accommodate them no one has any idea what to do.

     The book belongs on the shelf of those who are willing to 
look for new solutions now that we know none of the old solutions 
will work.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (156)
To:      All                                    24 Dec 94 00:16:00
Subject: BOB SHUCK, RIP                         

     For those who knew him, Bob Shuck died on the 16th of 
December.  For those who did not know him he founded what is now 
called RIME and initiated / managed some of the early efforts on 
standardized message transfers and networking.  

     Back when he was getting messages moved around the country 
in a day or two Fido was still taking a week.

     Those of us who knew him will miss him greatly.

     Please pass the word.


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+++■■■■■ r_941229 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (113)
To:      Tom Takesian                           25 Dec 94 21:49:00
Subject: EX-STURGEON GENERAL ...                

TT> MG>       Purely political?  The Surgeon General has the same 
TT> MG>  relationship to the nation's health programs as the 
TT> MG>  Secretary of Defense has to national defense.

TT>  The Surgeon General's function has strayed far from it's 
TT>  original conception.  The Surgeon General's function is a 
TT>  political appointment to fill the position as the nation's 
TT>  nag: "Don't smoke, don't drink, don't have sex without 
TT>  condoms..." I don't need someone from the Public Health 
TT>  Corps suckin' up tax dollars spreading this kind of 
TT>  crapola.  Elder's paid the price for daring to stray from 
TT>  the partyline and recommending something considered 
TT>  controversial.  Her views, which I believe she was sincere 
TT>  about, found no political support.  And in Washington, 
TT>  without political support, you're out of a job.

                 Rethinking the Surgeon General
                               by
                           Matt Giwer  (c) 1994

     A question occured to me some days ago.  What is the 
function of the Surgeon General?  From what we see lately it is 
to appear in public and say stupid things.  But even going back 
to the C. Everett Koop days what was he doing other than 
appearing in uniform?
     A lot of help from my friends has uncovered some details.  
It appears the Surgeon General is the head of the United States 
Public Health Service.  OK, lets have a show of hands.  How many 
people have heard of the US Public Health Service?  I don't see 
many hands.
     Lets do a little history first.  It began as the Marine 
Hospital Service in 1798 providing medical relief to merchant 
seamen and continued to 1902 in that capacity.  That explains why 
a General would wear an Admiral's uniform.  But that is history.
     Today the Surgeon General is in charge of the National 
Institute of Health, the Food and Drug Administration, the Health 
Resources Administration, the Health Services Administration, the 
Alcohol, Drug Abuse and Mental Health Administration, and the 
Center for Disease Control. 
     The position of Surgeon General is one of critical 
importance to the functioning of the government's contribution to 
the national health of this country.  Think about this a moment.
     For the Secretary of Defense there is an expectation the 
person will be knowledgeable in military affairs.  Les Aspin was 
Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.  That had the 
potential at least whether or not it was fulfilled.  
     For Attorney General (were is her Admiral uniform?) we have 
a rather tough lady who came from one of the larger and more 
crime ridden counties in the country.  I don't know if that is 
pro or con her abilities but it certainly gave her experience.
     Now for the position that affects the health of the entire 
country as much as the other two affect the defense and crime 
level we have a political hack calling for safer guns and safer 
bullets.  Were either the Secretary of Defense or the Attorney 
General to call for safer guns and safer bullets they would be 
laughed out of any confirmation hearings.  They would be 
ridiculed in the press.
     But what do we have in the most powerful and influential 
health care position in this country?  A nerf brain.  Someone who 
make Dan Quayle on his worst day look positively brilliant.  
     Joycelyn Elders is rapidly becoming a running joke.  Sex 
education starting in pre-school may or may not be a good idea 
but when she opens her mouth on the subject it appears absolutely 
absurd.  She can not give a speech without providing Rush 
Limbaugh with material for six shows.  She is the Molly Yard of 
health care.
     And we have her all for our very own.  Look back to that 
fourth paragraph.  Look at all she is responsible for running.  
Think back to anything you can remember of C. Everett Koop and 
compare that to the fool who is now in charge of all of those 
agencies.
     How can we allow an feather headed, back woods political 
hack with an MD to have such responsibility?   Who in the hell is 
responsible for her?



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (114)
To:      Ed Mathis                              25 Dec 94 21:50:00
Subject: GASOHOL                                

EM>  MG>  I know of no thermal source outside of Hawaii that is worth 
EM>  MG>  the development.

EM>  I remember reading somewhere that there are facilities in 
EM>  California that tap geothermal heat (with brine) to produce 
EM>  steam for generating electricity.  The process works well 
EM>  enough but the brine is corrosive and leaves heavy 
EM>  deposits, so equipment maintenance costs are high.

EM>  There are possible sites in other states also, where magma 
EM>  chambers are relatively near the surface.  I don't remember 
EM>  where the sites are, but Wyoming (near Yellowstone) and 
EM>  Washington state (near Mt.  St.  Helens and Mt.  Ranier) are 
EM>  other possibilities.

     I have heard of other suggested sites (hell, the only one 
that could be easily made productive is called Yellowstone but 
Yogi would object.)

     Economics is more than just the heat source as you have 
noted in the corrosion problem.  Ship builders all over the world 
have  been trying to beat the problem since there were ironclads.  
It is doubtful that an interest in geothermal power is going to 
lead to a breakthrough.

     Other economic problems include location.  Transmitting 
power is lossy.  The further it is from the user the less 
valuable it is.
     
     If you look at the history of power production the higher 
the technology required to produce it the higher the payoff.  
Coal was easy, dig it out and carry it away and coal could be 
used to aid in the mining and in the trains to carry it away.  
Oil was a bit harder needing drilling and cracking technology.  
Nuclear took 35 years to solve the engineering problems and still 
hasn't cracked the political problems.

     But the promise of each was successively greater.  
Geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, none of them offer the payoff for 
the investment in technology needed to make use of them.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (117)
To:      Darrel Grattidge                       25 Dec 94 22:05:00
Subject: LIBERALS, NEW DEFINI                   

DG> MG>DG>  It is certainly not the first instance of Matt playing
DG> MG>DG>  around with Moderator messages in POLITICS.  He manipulated
DG> MG>DG>  one a few months ago to aid him in his accusations that
DG> MG>DG>  another contributor (Fred Taub) to that echo was a liar.
DG> MG>DG>  It seems that Matt still abides by no rules but his own.
DG> MG>
DG> MG>      I posted the moderator's messages exactly as the moderator
DG> MG>posted it without changing one word.  I even posted it to
DG> MG>Bloomberg and asked him for an alternate interpretation.
DG> MG>Bloomberg never provided a correction or an alternate
DG> MG>interpretation to his message.
DG> MG>
DG> MG>      Do you have a problem with that?

DG> What if I do?

DG> What if I don't?

DG> Pick one and write an essay.

     I do not use the essay format; never have.

     And Taub was lying.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (118)
To:      Scott Summers                          25 Dec 94 22:06:00
Subject: SECRET SERVICE NEEDS YOU               

SS>  .....  and a related message.  It was announced this morning 
SS>  that a train had ramed the White House.  No one was injured 
SS>  and the President and his family were never in danger.  The 
SS>  engineer has passed his drug test and the FBI believes it 
SS>  was simply a case of making a wrong turn.  The Secret 
SS>  Service is investigating how the track got laid.

     Billie Jeff thought the track was female.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (135)
To:      All                                    26 Dec 94 14:10:00
Subject: OUR PRECIOUS WETLANDS                  

                      Our Precious Wetlands
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/26>

     Over Christmas I was treated to an environmentalist's
delight, I was given the gift of nature, car trip from Tampa to
Miami and return by a different route through the large and most
precious land in the United States, the Everglades.  The Bald
Eagle is the national bird, this is the national swamp.  The US
has a certain innocent cleverness in picking its symbols, a
carrion eater and a mud flat.
   It is impossible to describe the sense of grandeur I
experienced in two 100 mile crossings of this national weed
patch.  Where else could I see a hundred miles of ten foot high
chain link fence?  Where else could ninety five miles of the view
of this glorious scenery be blocked by scrub growth on the other
side of the fence?  Where else could there be a toll at both ends
with no way to get on the road in the middle?
     But then I did have a chance to see unspoiled nature through
those infrequent breaks in the scrub trees.  I have to admit it
was enlightening.  What it took nature a million years to
accomplish I can do to my lawn in three months.  Never contract
with Mother Nature without a severe late delivery penalty.
     I did see a lot of wildlife or rather wilddeath.  There was
an interesting sampling of roadkill despite the fence.  One has
to wonder at the wisdom of a ten foot high fence when the largest
animal is the non-arboreal alligator and the rest can tunnel
under it.  A relative of the governor must have gotten the
contract.
     We didn't stop to see if any of the roadkill was on the
endangered species list or if any of these were the last of the
species.  I would have enjoyed notifying the EPA.

     Dear EPA, 
          Greetings.  One of your species has died.  My
condolences to the department that gets laid off.

    They could perhaps join the Agriculture Department staff who
get laid off with their farmer dies and the IRS people who want
to claim $6 million in taxes on the estate of a dead child from a
lawsuit that has not been won much less paid.
     It is that kind of thinking that keeps a million square
miles of swamp as swamp.
     And there is another problem.  If you want to experience a
swamp, rent a movie.  Everglades has no character at all.  No
producer of a classic creeping horror monster movie would ever
consider using this as a location.  Even Swampthing would not be
caught dead there.
     Do want creepy sounds in the night?  The only sign of animal
life was flocks of identical white birds.  Was there a menacing
gator ready to attack the good guy and be tricked into eating the
bad guy?  The nearest I got to a gator was billboards for the
endangered Florida industry of show both tourists and natives
alligators in the only places they might ever see one.
     Don't miss Gatorama!
     Last chance to see Gator Wrestling!  (Presumably it is like
mud wrestling but without the appeal of sex unless one is very
perverted.)
     Genuine Indian mocassins and alligators!  (The mind boggles
at the possibilities with that combination.)
     The only civilized place to see real Florida Gators is in a
football stadium with overpriced beer while giving out civilized
screams and generally acting like a civilized madman.
     In addition to not seeing alligators, I did see any
environmentalists out there wading through the much bare ass
naked.  I don't know who was enjoying this public health hazard
and legal nuisance this day.  The traffic was moving as fast as
the occasional smokey would permit and there were no places to
stop in any event.
     My impression of the first leg of the trip was that
environmentalist have the concepts of majesty, grandeur and
unspoiled confused with boring, uneventful and undifferentiated.
     The return leg was only partly through the national swamp
and then through a more than equal stretch of cattle, sugar cane
and vegetable country.  There must be some preservationist
instinct as they view didn't change much until we got to Belle
Glade, home of the mosquitoes-got-AIDS urban legend.  Although it
was a cut above the swamp only an environmental purist could
object to its presence.  It did not spoil much of the natural
swamp.
     After hundreds of miles of the natural ugliness of saw grass
I could not find it in my heart to consider sugar cane any less
ugly.  It was simply better organized.  Where nature appears to
like patches of fierce competition, man appears to like spreading
the wealth for all plants, perhaps a primordial tendency towards
Marxism is being manifest.  In any event, they are applying it to
the highest form of life it can benefit.
     Along the way was the Cypress Knee museum.  This is a
private museam founded by a mid twentieth century fruitcake who
found spiritual meaning in the shape of the roots of cypress
trees.  Even this museum, nobly dedicated to cutting off and
preserving the roots of cypress trees, could not resist catering
to the nature lovers.  "Take a walk through the Everglades!"  It
did advertise that the walk was on catwalks above the swamp.
Getting too close nature can be hazardous to your love of it.
     Perhaps I did not see the real swamp.  After all just a few
years ago the delicate balance was blown to hell and gone by
hurricane Andrew.  Like God and Noah, Gaia appears regularly
disgusted with its creations.  Andrew was able to get rid of
Homestead Air Force Base but had no luck in getting rid of this
ugliest of its creations.
     The experience was part of my Christmas gift.  I now can
speak from authority, the wonders of nature are best seen on TV.
My only regret is that I did not bring a camera to preserve these
miles and miles of miles and miles.  It is truly worth preserving
for our children; who knows when they may cease to appreciate
what Hollywood adds to the mystique of nature and need to brought
up short with a boring drive through the real thing?
     The Everglades are the real Florida.  Making it a national
park has spared untold thousands from prison.  It used to be a
felony to sell this kind of land to the unspecting.  Perhaps some
day man, in his wisdom, will make it a felony let weeds grow like
this.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Make welfare as hard to get as business permits.

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+++■■■■■ r_941230 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (79)
To:      All                                    27 Dec 94 02:14:00
Subject: AMERICAN DREAM CONTRACT                

                     Don't Swallow the Fifth
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/27>

     And this is the fifth in the House Republican Contract with
America.

5.  THE AMERICAN DREAM RESTORATION ACT

A $500 per child tax credit, begin repeal of the marriage tax
penalty, and creation of American Dream Savings Accounts to
provide middle class tax relief.

     And what is wrong with it?  It and anything like it by
either party holds there are different classes of citizens which
have unequal merit in keeping their own money rather than having
it taken in taxes.  It means the more children you have the more
right you have to your own money.  It means if you save for the
things the government approves of you have a right to keep more
of your own money.  This is barely different from the class
warfare of the Democrats for the last forty years.
     The only acceptable part is one more attempt to correct for
the tax situation of the married.  This occurs every ten to
fifteen years and each time it goes too far in the other
direction.  Good luck getting it right this time.
     This meddling is a symptom of the entire income tax system
itself.  Its inequities are legion and can not be solved by a
tweak here and a fine tuning there no matter how politically
favorable.  Obviously allowing tax payers to keep more of their
own money simply because their children are still at home
indicates they have not dealt with children who have only
recently left home and who are like a boat, a hole in the water
to dump money into.
     What is the encouragement?  To keep the kids in commuter
colleges and for them to live at home afterwards for as long as
possible?  Is there an age cut for the children?  Is there any
rational basis for the age that is related to the expense?
     Ask any grandparent if the deduction should not be lifelong
and apply to grandchildren.  In fact it establishes classes of
people, not only breeders and non-breeders but those who
hornswaggle their kids to stay at home if it extends past 18 or
those who do not if it does not.  And if their kids missed a
grade or were born on the cusp of "too young" to start
kindergarten then they have nineteen year old or older and
non-deductible children as seniors or less in high school.
     It this too complex to deal with in tax law?  Yes.  Should
there be such tax laws?  Hell no.
     The American Dream part of it is also in question.  The
details are not out but the "American dream" has always been
portrayed as home ownership, sending the kids to college in
addition to a comfortable retirement.  Again the complications
arise.
     Home ownership?  Why?  Given the variations upon the tax law
in a particular year living rather than renting out the house you
own is not the best tax decision.  But then what if one lives in
the house for one night and decides to rent it out?  The Dream
has been fulfilled for one night.
     Sending the kids to college sounds good.  But any estate
counselor will tell you that such money should have options to
cover the kids not going to college and the equivalent amount
should have a disbursal for the first home or simply a cash
payment.  Are these options not to be covered?
     Shall the government twist the income tax code one more time
to say post high school (college or trade school or whatever) one
more time to encourage it else nothing?  Once the lump sum
disbursement for the first home is permitted then all the other
options of estate planners are included.  At that point the tax
code is deciding if estate planning for the family cat is tax
free.
     The only correct position is either the abolition of the
income tax or a flat income tax, preferably the former.  With a
consumption tax the government can profit from all necessary
purchases.  Even with this it perverts revenue raising by special
taxes upon sin.  This must go also.
     When the flat income tax is declared a failure along with
the marxist progressive income tax we currently have then the
consumption tax must also be flat.  There can be no
differentiation upon what is sold.
     Special alcohol and tobacco and luxury taxes must vanish for
there to be any validity to any of our governments at any level.
The government was not constituted as a body to regulate the
people who constituted it nor to modify their behavior in any
manner other than criminal matters.
     We have granted our governments the power to raise revenue
for their own existence.  We did not grant governments the power
to influence behavior by increasing or decreasing taxes on items
and activities.
     It is not rational that alcohol, tobacco, full automatic
weapons and marijuana can be discouraged by high taxes while
pollution must be prohibited as an ultimate evil.
     It is not rational that home ownership should be encouraged
by tax laws where it would not otherwise be a rational economic
decision.
     If these are in the interests of the people then the people
can best determine their own interests.  If these are in the
interests of the government then the government is not the people
and they encouragement is only to raise greater revenues or to
increase the power of the government.  As I do not accept elected
officials are endowed with the wisdom to decide for the people I
can not accept they are qualified to make decisions for me or
anyone else regarding private life decisions, much less the
course of history.
     The tax system has to go to a financially and morally
neutral position before we can have a system of government that
deals only with the necessary powers of government and none
other.  It will be a long time coming.  It is the alternative to
our constitutionally limited tyranny.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]




---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The Constitution is not a technicality.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (80)
To:      All                                    27 Dec 94 03:00:00
Subject: AUTHOR!  AUTHOR!  NO, NOT              

 ##########  Original From: CRACKPOT
 # STOLEN #             To: BOB KRUGER
 #  STUFF #    Date/Number: 12/23/94 - 0011187
 ##########             On: DOC'S - 0437 - Politics
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In a msg to William Meriwether on , Bob Kruger of 1:3613/25
writes:

 BK>> In fact, you did.  We have the witnesses in this echo to prove it.

 WM> If such "witnesses" exist, they are lying as well.

 BK> Not difficult.

 BK> John Massey
 BK> Stan Hardegree
 BK> Ed Connell
 BK> Vern Humphries (welcome back, sir,)
 BK> Tom Yoha (if you are back off of vacation)
 BK> et al
Crackpot

 BK> Meriwether stated that Jefferson wrote the Constitution.

 BK> He then stonewalled all of us who pointed out to him that Jefferson 
 BK> wrote the Declaration of Independance.  He later stated that he 
 BK> admitted his mistake immediately after it happened.

 BK> Thus far, no one who follows this echo closely that I asked ever saw 
 BK> this initial retraction.

Exactly.

 R   P
C A K O
   C   T

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (81)
To:      All                                    27 Dec 94 04:05:00
Subject: CAPITAL GAINS                          

                       Who gains Capital?
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <12/27>

     Changing the capital gains cut is one of the most
deliberately misunderstood proposals of the 104th Congress and as
usual solely for the purpose of promoting different classes of
citizens.

8.  THE JOB CREATION AND WAGE ENHANCEMENT ACT

Small business incentives, capital gains cut and indexation,
neutral cost recovery, risk assessment/cost/benefit analysis,
strengthening the Regulatory Flexibility Act and unfunded mandate
reform to create jobs and raise worker wages.

     At present capital gains are taxed at the same rate as
ordinary income.  Investments are not indexed for inflation as
are the tax brackets we all deal with.  As there is no tax that
is fair let me discuss whether this tax is reasonable.
     Way back when during the wild inflation of the 1970s the
country had enough of what was called then bracket creep.  We had
a steeply graduated income tax, people were getting raises into a
higher tax bracket but because of inflation they were losing
their standard of living because of higher taxes.
     The same has been true of the capital gains tax.  The most
common example is your parents put down $1000 dollars on their
$5,000 dream house in the 1950s.  Came the 1980s and it was worth
$100,000 and their down payment, their capital investment was
presumably worth twenty times more also, or $20,000.  Were they
permitted to exclude $19,000 from taxes?  Is the bear Catholic?
     Of course not.  A more basic question regards the $5,000
house.  Was the $100,000 selling price indexed to inflation over
those years?  Does the Pope ... never mind.  We all know that
would never happen in a Democrat controlled House.
     So what was done?  One more quirk was introduced into the
tax laws, a one time, lifetime exemption for cashing out on a
home purchase.  Why?  Because failure to index for inflation was
considered wrong.
     Why then is failure to index right for anyone else?  Is
right and wrong based upon "to each according to his needs"
simply because our parents are old, they are a voting block and
belong to AARP?
     Many countries thrive with no capital gains tax at all.  Our
two greatest economic competitors, Japan and Germany do not have
a capital gains tax.  The lack of it does not appear to harm them
in the least.
     From another view point, if there is a capital gains tax why
is there not a capital loss tax credit?  There sort of is but
only if your losses are less than your gains.  If your losses are
more than your gains the IRS does not want to read sob stories on
a 1040 form so don't waste their time.
     The above might be fine for a professional investor but when
you take all the risk and when you work thirty hours a day ten
days a week making a profit, the government wants a piece of your
action.  But if you go broke they do not want to hear about it.
     OK, does that stir your marxist heart to a callous disregard
for the exploiting capitalist?  The real and most common case was
in the last few years.  People put down their money on a home,
the economy turned sour and the value of their home went down
hill.  They had to sell at a loss but they searched in vain for
line on the 1040 to deduct that loss.  That does not even go into
the negative inflation value of that loss.
     But then why should Microsoft shareholders avoid capital
gains taxes when they sell their stock?  Tell me, who would have
given them a tax break had Microsoft gone the way of hundreds of
other losers in the early days of computers.  Consider the
investors in Apple who took a flyer and a very great risk on two
admitted, plea copping non-felons whose previous business history
was selling the hardware to steal long distance phone time.

Dear Uncle Sam,
     I lost $100,000 investing with these two garage shop
computer nerds with a questionable legal history.  Please deduct
this from my taxes payable.

     That and a little more chutzpah will get you three years for
tax evasion.
     But the real question comes down to the day to day investor.
The person who has capital gains every day.  They need be taxed.
But then who is going to do the investing to make up for the
money lost to taxes?  If the average investor is only able to
break even then taking 23% per year means that in five tax years
there is nothing left to invest.  So where is investment money to
come from?  The tax collecting government?  Pigs are yet to be
flying and hell is still well above the freezing point of water.
     We have gained nothing from this capital gains tax.  The
failure to index it along with ordinary income means we are
taxing inflation.  Taxing gains in the first place means we are
penalizing investment.
     It means we are not very bright as a county.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Health Insurance is expensive now.  Wait until it is free.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12a
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