The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_controv_9406


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (151)
To:      Rachel Nash                             1 Jun 94 20:43:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101                            

RN> MG>       Don't really know.  The latest research suggests it is 
RN> MG>  a birth defect of some sort that results in incomplete 
RN> MG>  development of a parts of the brain.

RN>  Actually, I beleive that the research indicates an 
RN>  additional structure in the brain...ie, MORE brain.

     LeVay reported the area was underdeveloped in the cadavers 
he studied.  That finding was confirmed by a second researcher 
about six months later.  Both researchers are gay.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (179)
To:      Frank Scheidt                           1 Jun 94 20:44:10
Subject: Intellect ... sorta ...                

FS>  FS>  Well God *does* permit the presence of electricity ...
FS>  FS>  else, how could it exist.  Again, George, please try to use
FS>  FS>  your intellect on this one.

FS>  MG> How could it stop electricity from flowing?

FS> How could WHAT stop the flow of electrons?

     Your imagined god.  (You god has no sex unless you hold it 
reproduces.  Therefore the proper pronoun is neuter.)


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (182)
To:      Bert Byfield                            1 Jun 94 20:46:10
Subject: Libertarian Alert                      

BB>  MG>      You might get into my league with a few more bannings.

BB>  Gee, that would be REAL NEAT!    ;-)   But I can't find a 
BB>  local connection for WORLDTALK.  Anyone know a New York 
BB>  connection? Specially in Rochester?

     The nearest place I can think to even look would be Sound of 
Music in NYC.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (185)
To:      Rachel Nash                             1 Jun 94 20:47:10
Subject: Memorial Day                           

RN> MG> GR>  And they certainly aren't against soldiers.  The
RN> MG> GR>  Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded to
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RN> MG> GR>  homosexuals.
                       ^
     
RN> MG>      How many?  By name.

RN>  Who really knows how many, given the necessity in the 
RN>  military to keep such things secret.  

     Then your claim can not be substantiated can it?  Why would 
you make it when you have no basis for the statement as you made 
it?


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+++■■■■■ r_940607 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (141)
To:      All                                     2 Jun 94 15:40:10
Subject: Davidian Trial Transcript              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
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     At 3:00 EST on 2 June 1994, I spoke with Mr. Bowen, Clerk of 
Courts (817)754-7444, regarding a transcript of the trial of the 
Branch Davidians earlier this year.

     The answer was very simple.  No transcript would be prepared 
until and unless an appeal is filed.  This does not explain the 
lack of a response ot my request but it makes no difference at 
this point.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (142)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            2 Jun 94 18:05:10
Subject: Michael Fay Caning                     

LG>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Matthew Russotto <=-

LG>  MG> The only good criminal is a dead criminal.


LG>  MG> -!-

LG>           Are the words "criminal" and "liberal" 
LG>           interchangable in the above equation?

     I have suggested it but usually getting them drunk is all 
that is necessary.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (143)
To:      William Childress                       2 Jun 94 18:06:10
Subject: RED SHIFT VS CREATION                  

WC> MG> I was pointing out there are contradictory, infallible 
WC> MG> statements in the recountings.

WC>  I disagree with your observation.  It's your own bias that 
WC>  produces the these contradictions and nothing more.

     The last I heard is when two or more statements do not say 
the same thing.  We have many examples of it in the Bible.  

WC> MG> Bungee jumping.  Maybe Yeshua gave him the bungee cords.  He 
WC> MG> was god wasn't he?

WC>  Cute, but you've still suggested that things which appear 
WC>  impossible may still be true.

     Mutually contradictory statements HAVE to be true if the 
Bible is infallible.  I am not going to attempt explain it.  The 
Red Queen is better trained in it.

WC> MG> You are the one who has to support infallible 
WC> MG> contradictions, not me.  I could care less.

WC>         Honestly, that's the reply that I expected.  
WC>  Truthfully, you're not interested in investigating the 
WC>  possibilities.  Actually, you're only interested in 
WC>  supporting your anti-biblical posturing.  Tell me, why do 
WC>  you bother spouting your conservative rhetoric on this 
WC>  echo? Apart from God, there's no authority behind it!  If 
WC>  mankind is the measure all things, then your opinion holds 
WC>  no more weight than that of your liberal brethren.

     Just last we I posted the true basis for morality and it 
certainly does not require the addition of any god to understand 
it.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (144)
To:      Ann Ross                                2 Jun 94 19:26:10
Subject: Linda Thompson 1/9                     

AR>          Its been posted many times on Politics, I'll have 
AR>          to wait until I can trace it again.  The original 
AR>          tape that she copied from the TV station was 
AR>          examined and it was found that she stopped, and 
AR>          back tracked to make what was a falling piece of 
AR>          board (wallboard, I thing it was) stop in mid-air 
AR>          and appear to be a ejection of flame.  The original 
AR>          tape showed it as white, not orange as well, so 
AR>          even more doctoring was done.  The photographer, 
AR>          magazine and page numbers were given and I will 
AR>          pass them here if I can trace who had the posts 
AR>          concerning this.  I certainly don't intend to do the 
AR>          research.  Come on over and ask yourself if you 
AR>          like.
AR> 
AR>          BTW, if it is was slander and lies, as an attorney, 
AR>          she would HAVE ALREADY FILED SUIT AGAINST THE 
AR>          MAGAZINE.  Face it, YOU ARE THE ONLY "SHEEPLE."

     You are describing the first tape.  The second tape 
continues the footage to demonstrate it is as described.  

     And if you have seen the second tape there is a clear shot 
of a line something bright orange briefly between a tank and the 
building.  It is played back in slow motion in case you miss it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (145)
To:      Scot Vertullo                           2 Jun 94 19:29:10
Subject: Linda Thompson 1/9                     

SV>  > Except that Koresh didn't go out looking for trouble.

SV> Nope. He stayed-in and *invited* trouble...

     How did he force the BATF to attack him instead of simply 
serving the warrant?  

     Would you please describe the form of the invitation?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Bert Byfield                            2 Jun 94 19:31:10
Subject: Red Shift Vs Creation                  

BB>  LT>         There's nary a word in Eqyptian history of a Flood, 
BB>  LT>  of jewish slaves or of an Exodus.

BB>  There's nary a word in Whitehouse press releases of Waco, 
BB>  of dead burned murdered children, of Gordon Kahl, of the 
BB>  Weaver murders, or of Libertarians.  People write about 
BB>  their victories, not their sins and failures.

     As before Egypt they were literally no more than goat 
herders, how do you explain they picked up not one word of 
Egyptian for any thing they would not have a word for?  This is 
contrary to every expectation of language development.

     How do you explain their writing in a variant of a 
Phoenician script rather than in Egyptian, which would be the 
only written language they would have known?

     How do explain not one slighest bit of archeologic evidence 
evidence in Egypt or in the wilderness of them every existing?  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (147)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 94 05:03:10
Subject: Ayoob Essay            01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
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 **********  Original From: VICTOR DURA
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/31/94 - 0000368
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: raweis@law.ucla.edu (SCOTT WEIS)

The following essay is written by Massad Ayoob, the ranking sensei of
the defensive pistol.  Mr. Ayoob is not only the leading instructor and
instructor trainer in handguns, he is also heavily in demand as an
expert witness in lawsuits involving the use of lethal force, as well as
being a sworn police officer for almost 20 years.  Ayoob runs his
defensive firearms academy, Lethal Force Institute, in Grantham, New
Hampshire.  This essay was printed in the June, 1994 issue of Guns
Magazine.

Start essay:

I have been an activist for firearms rights all my adult life.  However,
only now have I begun to feel like a Jew in the Warsaw Ghetto.  Only now
have all of us American gun owners lived under a regime that has made it
clear that it would rather  our kind  did not exist, and which has
publicly dedicated itself to reducing our numbers.

Let us, for a moment, set aside the Second Amendment.  In the time of
political correctness, we need to address politically correct issues
before we talk about the fundamental cornerstones of freedom guaranteed
by our Constitution.

Do not speak to me of James Madison.  Speak to me of defamation. There
are Americans alive who can remember the Jim Crow years, when
African-Americans were stereotyped in cartoons as baboons or Stepin
Fetchit characters.  There was a time when Jews were portrayed as
hook-nosed, snaggle-toothed avatars of soulless greed.  Until very
recently, national newspapers and magazines ran cartoons that depicted
Arabs with vulpine features.

Except for racist hate literature, that sort of thing is gone from the
mainstream media of 1994.  Well, almost gone.

Caught some anti-gun political cartoons lately?  The gun owners and gun
dealers will be depicted as physically unattractive, dirty, unkempt, and
possibly keeping company with drug dealers.  Mario Cuomo, spoken of as a
potential Clinton appointee to the Supreme Court, has described hunters
as drunken slobs who lie to their wives about their whereabouts over the
weekend.  Cuomo s implicit caricature of us is a graphic example of how
we are seen by the  in crowd  that currently occupies the White House
campus.

We who own guns for personal and family protection are targets of
opportunity for this sort of slander and libel.  We have no  anti-
defamation league  of our own.  Shall we go to the American Civil
Liberties Union for help?  We shall receive there as much succor as the
victims of the pogroms would have received from the Hitler Youth.  In
both cases, the victims were not  politically correct,  and in both
cases, the organization in question would never have spoken against its
own candidate.

Do not speak to me of Thomas Jefferson.  Speak to me of civil rights.
President Clinton has spoken enthusiastically of the proposals by the
politically opportunistic mayors of our two largest cities to limit
handgun ownership with a scheme of  needs-based licensing.

History shows where they come from .  We ve seen it in their cities in
the issuance of permits to carry concealed handguns.  In the Los
Angeles of Mayor Riordan or the New York of Mayor Guiliani,
 needs-based licensing  has meant and still means, this: If you are a
Eurocentric white male with a lot of money, and preferably have
contributed money to the party in power, you have a need and we ll
consider giving you a license.

When that is applied to mere ownership o handguns, I think we all
know where it is going.  The Clinton-approved concept of needs-based
licensing for ownership discriminates against citizens, black, brown,
red and yellow.  It discriminates against the old, with their traditionally
fixed incomes, and against the sick and the crippled who need a defense
gun most, but are most likely to be burdened by the sort of medical
debt that the First Lady has so often decried.

Although those who would make the gun owners of America as extinct
in America as German Jews in 1944 Berlin would paint themselves as
the champions of the poor and the oppressed and the people of color,
the fact is in this nation that the yoke of poverty has fallen most heavily
on just those citizens.  It is they who are most likely to be trapped in
the pockets of poverty that the call the inner city, the places where
crime breeds.  It is they who are most likely to be preyed upon by
criminals.  It is they who most need the wherewithal to defend
themselves.

It is they who, cruelly and ironically, will be hardest-hit by the
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (148)
To:      All                                     3 Jun 94 05:04:10
Subject: Ayoob Essay            02              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: VICTOR DURA
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/31/94 - 0000369
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0139 - C2C-DEBATE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Continued from the previous message...
**
enormous guns and ammunition taxes proposed by the Clinton
administration and its supporters, taxes that would make the tools of
self defense prohibitively expensive for all but the rich and secure.
These proposed laws impact most brutally, sometimes with life or death
consequences, upon the poor, upon the victims of politically incorrect,
but nonetheless very real, discrimination.

Don t speak to me of the Minutemen at Concord and Lexington.  Speak
to me of sexism.  Who among today s electorate does not remember
the horror of the young woman ravaged by the  wilders  in Central
Park?  Would Mace or a rape whistle have worked for her?  Can any
mother of any daughter, no matter what her political beliefs, examine
the scenario and not wish that, if the daughter in question was hers, she
would have in hand a high-capacity semiautomatic pistol she knew how
to use?

The gun isn t know as the equalizer for nothing.  Nothing less will
balance the lethal disparity of force that the predatory male, alone or
in packs, can exert at will over the lone female.  How great would be
the hypocrisy of politically active women who worked to keep that life-
saving power away from their sisters and their daughters?

Don t tell me about the Second Amendment.  Tell me about the Fourth.
The one that supposedly preserves us from unlawful search and seizure.
The administration speaks of   banning  assault rifles.  Where the toe
has been dipped in those waters--New York City, and the New Jersey
of the same former Governor Florio who, insiders say, the President
wants to appoint as a  gun czar --the five year-old model of Great
Britain has been followed.  Expensive firearms are banned, citizens are
paid a few cents on the dollar for turning them into the government, or
nothing at all if they destroy their property.

Understand the horror!  For the first time in this nation s history, we
are talking about the confiscation of private property, lawfully
purchased and responsibly owned, without fair market value
compensation under the eminent domain principle!

 Eminent domain  says that if the Government determines that to
preserve the public good it must take your property, it must at least pay
current fair price to you before doing so.  Considering how many guns-
-some with more than a century of service in hunting fields and the
target ranges-- are involved, and how high the current readily-salable
retail has gone for AUGs and AR-15s and the like.  The Government
would have to spend many billions of dollars to compensate under the
eminent domain principle.  Billions that would save far more lives if
devoted to medical research or housing the homeless, or drug
interdiction, or feeding the hungry, or...

Finally, at the end, do speak to me of the Second Amendment.  Tell
me why this alone, amongst every other precious standard of individual
liberty in the entire Bill of Rights, should apply to auxiliary soldiers
when the rest speak to citizens one by one?

Don t be so blatantly stupid as to tell anyone who passed elementary
school American History that the Second Amendment was about the
National Guard.  In the time of American Revolution, the  national
guard  would have been Tories loyal to King George.  I do not think
that Madison and company felt a need to keep them armed.

The fight for the next three years goes to the heart of your freedom,
and that of you children and grandchildren.  It will not be fought with
guns and bullets.  It will only be about them.

It will be fought with political activism and common sense.  It will be
fought by reaching out to new allies, by forging coalitions of those who
have already learned the hard way the truth that those who ignore
history are doomed to repeat it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (158)
To:      Ken Pangborn                            3 Jun 94 14:32:10
Subject: Nuclear Winter                         

KP>          Why when each are possible under different 
KP>   circumstances.  It seems it is a function of whether or not 
KP>   *ALL* of the nuclear devices are detonated ressonably 
KP>   simultaneously in the right places, or wheher they are 
KP>   staggered over several days.

     You forget the one about the earth dropping into the sun.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (159)
To:      William Childress                       3 Jun 94 14:36:10
Subject: RED SHIFT VS CREATION                  

WC> LT> There's nary a word in Eqyptian history of a Flood, of 
WC> LT> jewish slaves or of an Exodus.

WC>  Archaeologist, William Foxwell Albright comments concerning 
WC>  the accuracy of the Scriptures as the result of 
WC>  archaeology: 

WC>          Now all that has changed, comments Albright: 
WC>  "Archaeological discoveries since 1925 have changed all 
WC>  this.  Aside from a few die-hards among older scholars, 
WC>  there is scarcely a single biblical historian who has not 
WC>  been impressed by the rapid accumulation of data supporting 
WC>  the substantial historicity of patriarchal tradition.  
WC>  According to the traditions of Genesis the ancestors of 
WC>  Israel were closely related to the semi-nomadic peoples of 
WC>  Trans-Jordan, Syria, the Euphrates basin and North Arabia 
WC>  in the last centuries of the second millennium B.C., and 
WC>  the first centuries of the first millennium."
WC> 
WC>  Source: Albright, William F.  The Biblical Period From 
WC>          Abraham to Ezra.  New York: Harper and Row, 1960.
WC> 
WC> 
WC>  Linda, I suggest that the source of your information has a 
WC>  bias against the truth.

     I point out that not one word you posted has one thing to do 
with her statement.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (160)
To:      Scot Vertullo                           3 Jun 94 14:40:10
Subject: Stockpiling guns...                    

SV>  >         Then you do not believe in churches making a
SV>  >   profit in their business dealings?

SV> Not with guns.

     Where is it written or when did you receive the personal 
revelation?  How about JC & Co. going around armed?  ("Sell thy 
cloak and buy a sword.")

SV> The BDs were a cult. A dangerous cult.

     Of course no one including you has ever produced any 
evidence of that.  The lack of evidence must prove it to 
irrational minds.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (162)
To:      Ann Ross                                3 Jun 94 19:15:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisite                   

AR>  MG> True but it makes the revolution that much more justified.

AR>         Well, well, Matt Koresh lives....for awhile.

     Koresh didn't do or say anything.  Walter Williams is saying 
much more than I am.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (173)
To:      Matthew Russotto                        3 Jun 94 21:05:10
Subject: Nazi drug profiles                     

MR>   MG> === Skin and gut ten medium chipmunks.  (toss entrails to your pet
MR>   MG> hunting cat)

MR> Seems like a lot of work for so little meat.

     Less work than lark's tongue.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (184)
To:      Edward Hudock                           4 Jun 94 03:08:10
Subject: White House Marriage                   

EH>       I was just wondering if anyone else was curious.  
EH>  Hillary Clinton's Brother got married in the White House.  
EH>  I imagine there was extra security, a reception was 
EH>  prepared, there was a set up and tear down time of chairs, 
EH>  tables, etc..  Who footed the bill for this?  The taxpayer 
EH>  or the Clinton's?  Somehow I think I wasn't invited to a 
EH>  marriage ceremony and reception that I partially paid 
EH>  for...

     However it is legally their home and place of residence.  By 
law they have a right to treat it as their home.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (185)
To:      Jian Shan                               4 Jun 94 03:12:10
Subject: AID STATUS REPORT                      

JS>   See my post of an except of the Men's Fitness Magazine, 
JS>   July 1994 issue, p.  114, which states that that 1993 is 
JS>   the first year where homosexual activity is NOT the major 
JS>   cause in the spread of AIDS.

     Unless you have evidence the CDC is lying, it is.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (186)
To:      Jian Shan                               4 Jun 94 03:13:10
Subject: AIDS STATS                             

JS>  According to the latest statistics from the U.S.  Centers 
JS>  for Disease Control and Prevention, 1993 was the first year 
JS>  in which homosexual contact accounted for fewer than half 
JS>  of all new AIDS cases in the United States.  Of the 103,500 
JS>  total reported cases, 47 percent were the result of gay 
JS>  sex, 28 percent were attributed to intravenous- drug use, 
JS>  and 9 percent resulted from heterosexual contact.

     Which particular issue of the MMWR was it referring to?  The 
ones I have have another category "gay and IV drug use" which 
still puts gay over the half.  (You will note your percentages do 
not add up to 100.)


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (187)
To:      Alan Hess                               4 Jun 94 03:31:10
Subject: Muhammad shot                          

AH>  shooter was a Nation of Islam member who had been dismissed 
AH>  from the leadership of his mosque three years ago.  
AH>  Muhammad is expected to recover fully.

     Quite unfortunate.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (188)
To:      All                                     4 Jun 94 05:37:10
Subject: Regulation                             

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  The Old Regulation Gambit
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/4>

     Some decades ago an amendment to the Constitution was
necessary to permit the US government to prohibit alcohol.  Yet
today the federal government can prohibit most anything it wants
to the same level of alcohol without the trivial necessity of
complying with the Constitution.  Did you ever wonder why?
     It is a trivial matter.  It all hinges upon one word.  The
substitution of "regulate" for "prohibit" even though there is no
substantive difference.
     The Federal Government has always has the power to levy
duties upon imported items.  That is in the Constitution.  It is
new that the federal government has asserted the power to
prohibit the importation of anything.  Where did this power come
from?  Regulation of course.
     Let me ask you this.  What is the difference between banning
something and regulating it to the point where there is no
difference from banning it?  There is a simple answer, 3/4 of the
states are required to ban something.  A simple majority in
Congress is all that is required to regulate something to the
same status as a ban.
     Am I the only one finding something wrong with this?  I find
no place in the Constitution giving federal government the power
to use regulation in place of a power it was not delegated.  
     I do find one thing in the Constitution.  A power to
regulate interstate commerce.  I find one other thing in Supreme
Court findings -- that anything any place in any state is
properly regulated as interstate commerce.
     It is not my intention to argue the ineffabilities of
Supreme Court decisions.  It is my intent to argue, regardless of
the decision, it is completely unacceptable and not to be
tolerated.
     Look at what this permits.  The federal government no longer
needs to comply with the Constitution.  All it has to do is
declare anything is to be regulated rather than be banned.  It
need not find a delegated power within to Constitution to FORCE
something to be done, it need only declare there is a need to
regulate it.
     Is the federal granted the power to control highway
standards?  Of course not.  Has it declared it has the power to
regulate highway standards?  Most certainly.  Where did it get
this power?  One Supreme Court decision.
     Can Congress claim control over your life?  Of course not.
But is has the power to regulate your life.  The federal
government can regulate your choice of cars, your choice of
entertainment, your choice of housing, your choice of clothing.
     If your self employed or an employer you know you are
regulated to the point of controlled by the federal government.
If you are an employee you are probably not aware of your
potential income without government regulation.
     Regulation vice banned applies it the ban of guns that are
falsely called assault weapons which are banned but it is legally
called regulation.  It is bad enough the law declares it has the
right to declare anything it wishes an assault weapon.  It is
worse that it declares the right to declare regulation is not a
ban.
     In the days of prohibition even Eliot Ness should not have
been able to buy a drink.  In these days of regulation it is
possible to exempt person or group the regulators choose.  It is
possible to ban anything the regulators choose while not having
to admit it is a ban.
     The federal government can quite clearly exceed any
imaginable delegated power simply by declaring it a matter of
regulation.  Does Congress want water fountains of a certain
height?  Regulate it.  Think that is funny?  Toilet seat heights
are now regulated for the handicapped even though it prevent many
handicapped from using them.
     More importantly the Congress can regulate things like
banking and intrastate commerce for states like New York and
Nebraska and declare the regulation being exactly the same.  Thus
a state where investments are in developed property must be the
same as the rules for farm land.  We have three choices here,
regulation favors New York, it favors Nebraska or it equally
harms both.
     Make up a list of what you truly and without sarcasm believe
the federal government is good at and what is bad at.  Compare
that list to the federal Constitution.  You will will find the
good column consists of the delegated powers and the bad column
is the regulated powers.
     Is the federal Government good at providing for the common
defense?  That is in the Constitution.  Is the federal government
good at regulating drugs?  That is not in the Constitution.
     Consider carefully what is an intelligently exercisable
power of the federal government and what happens when regulation
is substituted for a power.
     Unbridled regulation has been a disaster.  Delegated powers
have worked.
     Support your 10th amendment.  It may the be last chance we
have to avoid revolution.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (194)
To:      All                                     4 Jun 94 19:15:10
Subject: Another good cause                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Demonstration Regulation
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/4>

     Abortion demonstrations got out of hand.  Something had to
be done.  We now have specific laws governing abortion protests.
     It was done in a good cause.
     Of course there was harassment.  There were bombings.
There were even two murders.  That would certainly appear to
justify the special laws.
     Unless we consider it has been rather tame compared to
unions while on strike.  Not much different from the Vietnam
or civil rights protests either.
     Even though demonstrations are protected by the 1st
amendment as a matter of free speech it is reasonable to
have some minimal regulation simply to assure peace and
orderliness.  For example, if people wish to speak in public
parks it is reasonable to ban loudspeakers.  It is not reasonable
to ban loudspeakers only for particular subjects.  That we call
censorship.
     With demonstrations it is reasonable to provide regulations
that assure public access is not blocked save upon a specific
permit being granted such as to hold a parade or to for such a
large crowd in a park as to deny access to normal public use.
     What is not reasonable is to apply unique requirements to
demonstrations based solely upon what is being protested.  Thus
there is a large number of people, perhaps a majority, who are in
favor these unconstitutional laws because they are in a good
cause.
     I have written many times of the loss of rights in a good
cause.  Here is a clear and present good cause and loss of
rights.  Which side do you fall on?
     Rather I ask which good cause will approve of next time to
limit our right of free speech?  If these laws pass
Constitutional muster or even if they are simply allowed to stand
then we have taken another step toward the end of the right of
free speech.
     These steps have been coming slowly after decades of
establishing it completely.  It was effectively won against
censorship of pornography when the omnipotent "for the children"
argument was raised and there are dozens of draconian state and
federal laws prohibiting it.  Regulating, vice prohibiting, all
pornography has been argued and that form of regulation lost.
Now we have accepted strict censorship by type rather than by
nature.
     These are two steps to clear and offensive censorship,
limitations upon the freedom of speech by subject matter.  The
more often it is accept the easier it is to accept the next.
Watch for more to come.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (195)
To:      Marcus Ronaldi                          4 Jun 94 19:31:10
Subject: Agree                                  

MR>  That is a fantastic idea.  I am going to donate one dollar 
MR>  to Terry Ricolta's ART (American's for responsible 
MR>  Television.  This nitwit is one of those stupid busy bodies 
MR>  trying to get the FCC on Howard Stern, Beavus and Butthead.  
MR>  She even had a cow when Seaquest had a nude alien! If 
MR>  anyone has the address for ART please leave me a message.

     I certainly wish you had quoted so I would know which of my 
fantastic ideas you are refering to.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (196)
To:      Fred Garvin                             4 Jun 94 19:32:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

FG>  MG>       Is there anyone out their stupid enough to think we 
FG>  MG>  are not going to start killing Haitians in a few days?

FG>  In a few days.  Hmm.  Like a week? 10 days? A month? An 
FG>  invasion? I don don't see it happening.

     Right now the money is on June 6 so Clinton can include it 
in his D-Day speech of another invasion from freedom.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (210)
To:      William Morgan                          5 Jun 94 03:01:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101                            

WM> MG>>      LeVay reported the area was underdeveloped in the 
WM> MG>> cadavers he studied.  That finding was confirmed by a second 
WM> MG>> researcher about six months later.  Both researchers are 
WM> MG>> gay.

WM>  ........and therefore predisposed to finding a 
WM>  physiological excuse for their perversion.  They are about 
WM>  as trustworthy as the homosexual clique who coerced the APA 
WM>  into removing homosexuality from its list of mental 
WM>  illnesses.

     The issue is not whether or not there is an excuse but 
rather who really gives a damn.  This condemnation of gays has 
been going on for millenia if you look at some cultures or 
derivative cultures such as Christianity.
     
     There is hardly a reason to imagine a social harm from any 
gay behavior that gives the government a compelling interest in 
the behavior.  It is not clear that individuals need the help of 
an established government to deal with the problem of 
homosexuality.

     It is only when a government chooses to treat people of self 
inflicted diseases that there is a compelling interest of the 
government.  In a democracy that involves the people who 
constituted the government.  

     I have long argued against this government choosing to 
provide health care and then using that choice to claim there is 
a compelling government interest.  It is hardly relevant whether 
or not some zero success rate organization like the APA lists it 
or not.

     The issue is simply that people be judged as individuals 
whether it is physical or psychological.  I can see no reason to 
penalize a class for the actions of some of its members.  Were I 
to deal with classes I would point out that the crime rate of the 
US is less than that of Canada if only caucasians are considered.

     I do not see that gives us license to treat all ethnics 
alike.

     Thus the on-going argument of who is the greatest child 
molester is equally irrelevant as the person not the group is the 
responsible party.  (I object to NAMBLA as promoting it and I 
object to any gay rights group permitting them to march as 
promoting it.  This is not free speech.  This is advocating the 
violation of the law.  If they wish to object to the law first, I 
have no objection.)


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (213)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 94 04:20:10
Subject: Justice and vengence                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0099 - Law & Disor-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     Affordable Justice
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/5>

     [Nothing in the lead in examples have not happened.]
     You are driving down the road and you are stopped by the
police.  They imply if you do not give up your right to privacy
and permit a search of your car that you will be arrested, when
you have the right to drive away and give them the finger as you
do so.
     So you let them search the car.  They find in your briefcase
more money than they think you should be carrying, in this case
$9,000.  They take your money and your car and tell you to take a
hike.  You never hear from them again nor are you ever charged.
You ask for your money back and you are to go to hell.
     You rented a house to strangers and they were caught dealing
drugs.  Your house was confiscated but no charges were ever
placed against the renters.  When you ask for it back you are
told to go to hell.
     Your child is dying of cancer and to keep from starving to
death because of the chemotherapy induced nausea he grows
marijuana in the backyard.  You house is confiscated.  He is
never charged.  When you receive the eviction notice you complain
and are told to go to hell.
     Your venue of justice is the courts.  Your property (by a
deliberate and willful part of the law) has already been tried
and found guilty.  You must prove your property was innocent.
Given the cost of suits in law and our lack of universal legal
care is beyond the means of most people.  In fact it is beyond
the value of the property legally stolen in most cases.
     This is a Catch-22+1.  Are you insane enough to spend more
than the property is worth to recover the property?
     If you are not insane and wish to achieve justice what are
your options.  If you have lost a house or money you can hardly
steal it back as it was stolen from you.  If it involves a car if
you steal it back they will track you down and put you in prison
in your search for justice.
     As reality in the case of money and houses prohibits justice
and as the law punishes justice in the case of a car we are left
with simple vengeance.  Is vengeance justified?
     The law is not license to violate human right regardless of
the authority of the law.  A person exercising the authority of
the law has no more justification in doing so than saying he was
only following orders.  The devil made me do it and the law said
I could do it are identical statements.
     Thus in the absence of justice, vengeance is morally
acceptable.  Everyone from the law-makers down to the exercising
officer are equally open to vengeance for the immoral theft of
property.  The only question is the moral limits of vengeance as
related to the harm caused by following orders.
     As the consequences of the actions are what is being avenged
the excuse of not knowing the consequences is not a mitigating
factor.  Should a person suffer $9000 worth of harm due to the
action he certainly had the moral right, not the obligation, to
inflict at least that much loss upon everyone in the chain that
permitted the harm to happen.  If a car was lost then everyone in
the chain must lose a car of equal value.  If a house was lost
then everyone in the chain must suffer the loss of a house.
     The pursuit of justice in these cases has been relegated to
either insane or impossible.  To ask a person to accept the law
as written is like asking a Jew to accept Nazi law as written.
These laws violate the very foundations of the concept of justice
for social beings.
     Vengeance is not a simple matter these days.  Centuries ago
it was a family matter.  There were no questions asked about the
family's right to vengeance in any religion or creed.  Today we do
not have such cohesive family units.  We have become indeed the
ideal of the founders of this country.
     Our duty is to our fellow American.  When one is harmed, all
are harmed. 
     When there is a loss for lack of justice then all Americans
have the moral obligation to avenge that loss.  
     We have a moral obligation to inflict that loss on anyone
even remotely involved in that loss unless he has personally
disavowed the execution of that law.  (And I note every oath of
office requires the execution of all laws.)
     It is clear that Americans have the moral authority to
avenge unjust laws against everyone in the government and in
kind.
     As to "in kind" we have the right to break into homes and
shoot to kill.  This government has done it to us, our fellow
Americans.  Forget Waco, look at Weaver, entrapment and kill his
family.
     Unless and until the government disavows those actions and
brings the perpetrators to justice we are all morally sound in
avenging their deaths upon every government employee including
elected and appointed officials who have done nothing.
     We are now at the point where if we do nothing it will get
worse.  If we do nothing it can only get worse in a different
manner and we have the chance of it getting better through our
efforts. 
     That may require a few house and car bombing and a few dead
federal employees.
     We only have moral authority when we are responding to
matters where justice is for all practical purposes impossible.
     Unfortunately this criteria will be forgotten.


                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (225)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 94 07:12:10
Subject: From the internet                      

 *********** Original       To: MIKE RIDDLE
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0019 - Law-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

MR>          "When personal freedom's being abused, you have to 
MR>          move to limit it."
MR>                         - U.S. President Bill Clinton, 1994

     A quick trip to the wall is most appropriate.  I not think 
Vietnam veterans will object if we use their wall.  The only 
question is if Hillary joins him for a last cigarette.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (226)
To:      All                                     5 Jun 94 07:32:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

                    Ollie North for US Senator

     Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He lied to 
Congress.  Give me an break folks.  Is their anyone willing to 
say Congress has never lied to us?

     I really do not want to hear that line again. Congress has 
always been the most lying public institution in America.  If 
there is any problem with Ollie North I want to see every other 
liar in Congress crucified first.

     I hope this is clear enough.           


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+++■■■■■ r_940609 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (101)
To:      Jim Higgins                             6 Jun 94 20:09:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills                  

JH>  Your points, all of them, are well taken and agreed to.  
JH>  What I referred to about now not being the time was an 
JH>  armed shooting rebellion.  A "hell no we won't cooperate 
JH>  with you anymore" on behalf of the majority of citizens is 
JH>  what we really need.  We need employers to refuse to 
JH>  withhold taxes for those employees who don't want them 
JH>  withheld, etc., etc.  There isn't really much they could do 
JH>  about peaceful but widespread rebellion.

     Employers are many fewer and make easier targets.

     Now people can file W-4s with a huge number of deductions 
and then refuse to file.  There are apparently some 5-10 million 
not filing now.  Of course most of them are retired and have no 
tax liability in any event but the government is powerless 
against them.

     It is obvious there needs be a list of non-violent actions 
that can be circulated and non-filing should on the list.  The 
general idea is to shut off the sources of income for the 
government while maintaining it cash outlays.  In that regard 
income taxes are only about half the federal revenue.  The 
fraction that could be stopped without bringing in the easier 
targets of employers is overall not that much of the total 
income.  

     The essence of taxation is that it is tied to the economic 
well-being of the country.  In that regard we have the method 
proposed decades ago by Ayn Rand.  Bring the country to an 
economic halt.  People need to drop out of the economy as best 
they can.  Minimize all actions which involve taxation.  learn to 
live on the least income you possibly can.  Become expert at 
obtain welfare supplements for that income.

     Let the government know we have the economy by the throat.  
None of their solutions to a recession will work.  If they try 
it, it will be the people causing the recession who will be there 
taking that money and doing even less productive work.  

                  "Stop the Wheels of the World"


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (102)
To:      Mark Phillips                           6 Jun 94 20:45:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

MP>  MG>       Is there anyone out their stupid enough to think we 
MP>  MG>  are not going to start killing Haitians in a few days?

MP> Got a problem with that Mr. Paranoid?

     Yes.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (107)
To:      All                                     6 Jun 94 23:42:10
Subject: A Peaceful Revolution                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  A Peaceful Means of Revolution

     I have been asked several times how to avoid a violent 
revolution.  The obvious answer was to stop the government 
sources of income but to continue its outlay of money.  The 
obvious means still required some level of violence.

     A consideration of the sources of income of the government 
and how to stop those led to the rediscovery of a method proposed 
some 35 years ago for the same objective.  I do not have the 
writing style of Ayn Rand (many say I should be grateful for 
that) but the book is Atlas Shrugged.  

     The method is to stop the wheels of the world.

     The source of the government's income is directly tied to 
the condition of the economy.  A nice, prolonged deliberate 
recession is will drastically reduce the government's income 
while at the same time greatly increasing its expenses.  And not 
one life need be lost.

     And if anyone thinks what I am going to propose is "too 
hard" they have no idea how hard a violent revolution will be.  
Everyone who has thought of revolution should be jumping at this 
(or something like it) rather than be imagining a quick jaunt to 
DC in September to get things over with.

     What are your minimum requirements for living?  Literally, 
the minimum requirements.  Adjust your income to no more than 
that.  That cuts off the taxes on your income.  You are also 
producing less so there is less economic activity.  Every drop in 
economic activity is a drop in revenues for the government.

     Are you eligible for any form of government assistance 
whatsoever?  Forget your pride and apply for it.  You will not be 
lying, you have a low income now and are entitled to the 
assistance.  When that comes in, get a lower paying job and apply 
for more assistance.
     
     Can the government's response be forced productivity?  Can 
they make you work at a more productive job?  They can not 
control your mind.  The government is powerless against this form 
of peaceful revolution.

     The result will be a recession where the government will be 
spending itself into bankruptcy faster than it is now.  Consider 
the government's usual cure for a recession is to spend more 
money.  Great!  Get in line for some of it.  Then they will spend 
more.  Don't lose your place in line.

     You can't do it to your family?  But you were thinking of 
going out and risking death weren't you?  You think that would be 
a lesser impact?  (Only you can answer that.)  

     Your children are college age?  Perfect, the less you make 
the more the government will pay for their educations.  You 
certainly don't need that big house any more.  Take your equity 
and buy a smaller house outright.  That reduces the banking 
business and you are not creating income for a landlord to be 
taxed.

     Learn to cook your own food again.  The fewer processing 
steps involved the fewer people to tax. 

     You need medical care?  Apply for Medicaid.  Use the 
emergency rooms.  That is what they are there for.

     Consider you don't need a new car every few years.  Public 
transportation isn't that bad and keeping a junker alive saves 
you a lot of insurance money and reduces the economy.  And never 
forget that public transportation pays no taxes and runs at a 
loss.

     If people condemn you for doing this, remind them of the 
opportunities you have given them by dropping out of the 
competition for jobs.  Let them step in and fill the void you 
have left. 

                              Matt Giwer
                              Dunedin Florida
                              

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (161)
To:      All                                     6 Jun 94 04:23:10
Subject: Coors                                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1229 - Environment-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     I reported some months ago that in response to the Coors ad 
on TV to "send us your name" I did so and that they sent me a 
Christmas card.  I have been remiss in the follow up.

     About six weeks ago I received in the mail a Colorado Spruce 
seedling from Coors.  I planted it in a pot and it is doing well.

     I do not think Florida will be kind to this tree but I 
intend to give it a shot.  (The Tampa Bay area essentially has a 
"monsoon" season from July to October.)

     In any event if you like free trees, next time you see the 
ad, send them your name.


---
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+++■■■■■ r_940610 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (225)
To:      Phillip Robertson                       7 Jun 94 19:42:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

PR>     Paranoia is setting in on your mind.  Why the hell would 
PR>   we want to kill Haitians? It's idiotic to even think of a 
PR>   thing like that.  The US doe a lot of bad undercover stuff 
PR>   but I doubt they would ever kill Haitians.  Lighten up.  I 
PR>   have a feeling that shadows scare you and that if someone 
PR>   says BOO you whizz in your pants.

     Invading Haiti means killing Haitians.  What do you think it 
will mean?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (227)
To:      Bert Byfield                            7 Jun 94 23:34:10
Subject: 00:  Ultimatum                         

BB>  MG>       The problem with Linda Thompson's plan is that it is 
BB>  MG>  tactically infeasable.  Any number of people to have an 
BB>  MG>  effect

BB> You assume you know what her real plan is...

     I know what she has posted as her plan.  It can be summed up 
as show up armed and wearing military insignia.

BB>  MG>  that might make the DC local news can not get any place 
BB>  MG>  near the White House or Congress before troops from three 
BB>  MG>  bases and two police departments converge on them.  The 
BB>  MG>  nearest place is about

BB> Yeah, so?

     They will be converging upon an undisciplined, armed group 
of people.  They are stopped right there.  One gunshot and they 
people who know what they are going open fire.

BB>  MG>  two miles if you are a crow and 2.5 if you have to walk.  
BB>  MG>  They will have to walk.

BB>  I've made that walk quite a few times.  

     Across the Memorial Bridge?  That is the route from the 
nearest staging area.  They can not get across the bridge before 
they are stopped and they are trapped on the bridge.

BB>  once.  This is all part of the political game.  My one 
BB>  arrest -- the time I chose to let myself be arrested -- was 
BB>  in Layfayette Park, across the street from the Whitehouse.  
BB>  It's a tradition.  The streets belong to The People.

     Armed people?  Or did you miss that?

BB>  MG>       It is called for a Monday morning in the middle of 
BB>  MG>  rush hour.  It is the unrealized dream of dozens of protest 
BB>  MG>  marches to create a traffic jam during rush hour.  It is 
BB>  MG>  not a feasible activity.

BB>  I've done it.  It's not unrealized at all.  It's part of 
BB>  the problem of being a Washinton DC commuter...

     I lived there many years.  The closest some group came was 
they managed to get three cars on one street.  The commuters got 
out and cleared up the blockage.

BB> Worked for the Viet Nam war protestors.

     They were not carrying guns with the objective of arresting 
the President and Congress.  

BB>  MG>       The call for carrying arms makes they liable to police 
BB>  MG>  arrest in both Virginia and DC.

BB>  Any political activist could be arrested.  It is part of 
BB>  the game, too.  If you can't take the least risk of arrest, 
BB>  you shouldn't have political convictions.

     These activists will be dead if they try it.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (228)
To:      Bert Byfield                            7 Jun 94 23:47:10
Subject: 10Th Ammendment Bills                  

BB>  MG>       Success is impossible.  She has picked a time to 
BB>  MG>  arrest Congress before they get to work to name a trivial 
BB>  MG>  point.

BB>  You suggest that only a full victory of her STATED goals 
BB>  would be useful.  Not so.  Just good press coverage would 
BB>  be a huge propaganda victory.  Modern wars are fought in 
BB>  the media...

     It is called a slaughter and there way of telling right now 
who would win the propaganda victory although I can not see the 
government losing it.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (243)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 94 07:01:10
Subject: Big Brother Still Listeni              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0000 - GENERAL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: ROGER CRAVENS
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/06/94 - 0001065
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0000 - GENERAL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  *********************************************************************
*   The folowing is a copy of a message posted to My UnKnown BBS.   *
*********************************************************************
========================================================================
As someone involved in the telephone industry on the level of security
and data integrity... I would like to inform everyone that uses modems
and/or are bbs operators of some information.

The first thing that everyone that uses a modem should know is that
every time you fire up your modem your activating monitoring equipment
somewhere in the U.S.  I have worked for several large telephone
networks that routinely monitor and reroute modem and fax transmissions
through devices that allow them to view what is being transmitted and
even decodes encrypted data and fax packets used by major corporations
and governmental agencies.  This is allowed under the heading of
"Maintenance Monitoring" and may be continued for up to 6 months without
the need of any legal paperwork being generated.  Under an obscure
pre-WWII ruling by the agency that is now the FCC... "No information may
be encoded or transmitted over PUBLIC or PRIVATE forms of telephony or
radio with the exception of those agencies involved in the National
Security" a further designation goes on to say "with the exception of
the MORSE system of 'transmittal', any communication that is not
interpretable by the human ear is forbidden and unlawful."  The
information gathered goes to 3 seperate database facilities...1 is
codenamed Diana and is located in Brussels, the 2nd is named Fredrick
and is located somewhere in Malaysia, the 3rd is named Elizabeth and is
located in Boulder, Colorado.  The information stored in these systems
is accessable by the US Government, Interpol, Scotland Yard and various
other such agencies.  Your credit rating is also affected by your modem
usage... if you ever get a copy of your credit history and find a
listing that has HN06443 <--= this is a negative risk rating. or a code
87AT4 <---= an even more negative risk rating.... these will usually
have no description on them... and if you inquire about them they will
tell you that it just comes from the system that way. I am currently
working for another major carrier as a consultant and have been able to
watch these systems operate...at one unnamed long distance carrier here
in Columbus Ohio in their NCC, Network Control Center, you can see
several rows of computer terminals which have approximately 30 to 40
separate windows in each... these windows have data transmissions that
are being monitored... banks of 9 track tapes are going constantly to
record everything.  Everyone should realize that even if a sysop posts a
disclaimer at the beginning of his bbs about no access to governmental
agencies or law enforcement...that it isn't worth the time it takes to
type it in... looking forward to hearing reactions to this.
--- * SLMR 2.0 * * My Castle BBS 614-236-4015 10pm to 10am M-F 6pm-6pm S-S
---
 * RM 1.3 01261 *                Barney Must Die!
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (245)
To:      All                                     7 Jun 94 08:02:10
Subject: Revolutionary Objectives               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                Objectives of the Revolution
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/7>

     Just what do we want out of this?  We are calling for a
revolution.  I have pointed out all we need to pledge are our
sacred lifestyles to get it bloodlessly.  
     What will be considered the capitulation of the the present
government?
     First and foremost, NO representative of the people will in
any manner be considered superior to any other.  No more
committee chairmen.  No more seniority.
     Second, the end of all political parties.  They are the root
of the violation of our Constitution.  I have pointed out Bush
ran upon fulfilling the obligations of the position of President.
Bill Clinton ran upon a party agenda.
     Sorry.  No place does it say we are voting for a party
agenda in my copy of the US Constitution.
     Third, any and all organizations are prohibited from
lobbying any Congressman.  We have more than enough
representatives at the local level to deal with them directly as
citizens.  No group shall have the power to speak more loudly
than a citizen.  Therefore, no groups, period.
     Fourth, a Constitutional Amendment shall be submitted to the
states holding that the power to regulate interstate commerce
granted to Congress shall be strictly limited to that which
crosses state boundaries.  It will not longer be permissible to
hold "affecting" such commerce is grounds for the passage of a
law.
     Fifth, Congress shall present for ratification an amendment
holding its power to direct compliance shall be strictly limited
to prohibitions only.  There shall no longer be directed
compliance in any action.
     Sixth, Congress shall present for ratification an amendment
holding it may never withhold any funding based upon compliance
that is not directly related.  While it will be possible to
withhold highway funds on condition of compliance with highway
specifications it will no longer be possible to withhold them
based upon the drinking age or seat belt laws.
     Seventh, Congress shall pass legislation hold null and void
any and all prior legislation in violation of any of the above
six items.  This shall not be by line item which would take years
but a broad determination of nullity.
     This should do it.  It is succinct as I can make it.  If
anyone has an addition please let me know.
     If people are willing to proceed with the economic shutdown
as I have outlined then when enough agree they are satisfied with
three out of six or five out of six the shutdown will end


---
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+++■■■■■ r_940611 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (242)
To:      Scott Summers                           8 Jun 94 18:25:10
Subject: From the internet                      

SS> MR>          "When personal freedom's being abused, you have to
SS> MR>          move to limit it."
SS> MR>                         - U.S. President Bill Clinton, 1994

SS>  MG>      A quick trip to the wall is most appropriate.  I not think
SS>  MG> Vietnam veterans will object if we use their wall.  The only
SS>  MG> question is if Hillary joins him for a last cigarette.

SS>  Most Vietnam Veterans I know would feel "their" Wall would 
SS>  be most appropriate for such a worthy cause.

     I am getting very mixed and very emotional responses to this 
suggestion.   Most do not like the idea at all.  Perhaps if I 
suggested hanging there ... but that is to close to getting a 
visit from the Secret Service.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (243)
To:      Graham Kendall                          8 Jun 94 18:29:10
Subject: Nuclear Winter                         

GK> < You forget the one about the earth dropping into the sun.>

GK>  In about 8 billion years, the sun will slowly expand into a 
GK>  red giant.
GK> 
GK>  The outermost part of the atmosphere will reach out as far 
GK>  as the earth.  This will produce drag, which will make the 
GK>  earth gradually spiral into the sun.

     I know that but one of the urban legends is that if enough 
bombs are set off the earth will fall into the sun.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (244)
To:      Geoff Wilbur                            8 Jun 94 18:32:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

GW>  MG>       Really nasty idea, right?  So what is his crime?  He 
GW>  MG>  lied to Congress.  Give me an break folks.  Is their anyone 
GW>  MG>  willing to say Congress has never lied to us?

GW>  I'm surprised at you, Matt!  You're implying that the 
GW>  typical Congressman has enough brainpower to know the truth 
GW>  when he sees it!  Does Congress lie to us, or are they just 
GW>  unable to remember what they told us last week?
GW> 
GW>  It's Ollie's sense of loyalty to his country that troubles 
GW>  me...  how can he survive in Congress with an attitude like 
GW>  that?

     It is times like this that make me wish I was still in 
Virginia to work for him.  

     As I read the mood, it is to stick it to the sanctimonious 
hypocrites in spades.  It is a matter of the more baggage North 
carries the better as long as he can imply it without saying it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (245)
To:      Fred Garvin                             8 Jun 94 18:39:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

FG> FG>  MG>       Is there anyone out their stupid enough to think we
FG> FG>  MG>  are not going to start killing Haitians in a few days?

FG> FG>  In a few days.  Hmm.  Like a week? 10 days? A month? An
FG> FG>  invasion? I don don't see it happening.

FG>  MG>      Right now the money is on June 6 so Clinton can include it
FG>  MG> in his D-Day speech of another invasion from freedom.

FG>  Lessee...  we've got another two hours, twenty minutes to 
FG>  midnight.  Yet, no word on an imminent invasion.  Care to 
FG>  couch your prediction?

     I said, soon.  I then added where the money was.  

     Look at it this way.  A ship full of armed Marines is going 
to meet up with a hospital ship some place near Haiti.  The 
story?  To deal with Haitian claims for asylum.  

     Think about it.  Why are they are different ships?  If 
trouble starts on the hospital ship are the Marines going to swim 
over?  Why did they simply not embark on the hospital ship?

     The reason I posted it was that I noticed a difference 
between the local and the national coverage.  That difference was 
the hospital ship and the area of rendezvous.  There was a story 
earlier in the week that the US had made a deal with Jamaica for 
the asylum reviews.  If the story had been they were going to 
meet off of Jamaica I would have posted nothing. 


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (246)
To:      William Morgan                          8 Jun 94 18:50:10
Subject: White House Marriage                   

WM> MG>>      However it is legally their home and place of 
WM> MG>> residence.  By law they have a right to treat it as their 
WM> MG>> home.

WM> -=-=-=-=-=
WM> Yeah.  As long as they pay their own PERSONAL expenses.

     He has an expense account.  If he makes it a photo op it is 
legitimate.  And there is precedent.  I forget who but it was the 
niece of some president early this century.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (247)
To:      All                                     8 Jun 94 20:45:10
Subject: Texas Const                            

 *********** Original       To: TED DODD
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

TD> Before you ask:

TD>  Sec 23: Every Citizen shall have the right to keep and bear 
TD>  arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the 
TD>  Legislature shall have the power, by law, to regulate the 
TD>  wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
TD> 
TD>  Sec 29: To guard against transgressions of the high powers 
TD>  being delegated, we declare that everything in this "Bill 
TD>  of Rights" is excepted out of the general powers of the 
TD>  government, and shall ever remain inviolate, and all laws 
TD>  contrary thereto, or to the following provisions, shall be 
TD>  viod.

     Actually I have just found a source of the Bill of Rights 
equivalent for all the 50 states' constitutions.  I can not 
present this in a manner I would like unless some inspiration 
strikes me.  (It always does but I may not live long enough.)  

     What I have seen from a quick sample of the original 13 
through the median to the last two I find no substantive 
difference.  (I will be working to demonstrate that point to the 
skeptics.)  

     I hit maybe 12 states in my reading.  They were all equal to 
or stronger in their statement of the protections of rights than 
the federal constitution.  The wording varies a little even when 
it adds no more protections.  This applies to EVERY item I could 
identify in the exercise.

     Granted I was not exhaustive.  However I believe I sampled 
everything of interest WITHOUT the deviations I expected.  I had 
envisioned once getting a file of these constitutions it would 
take forever.  At this point I can not get up the interest to be 
exhaustive given the similarities I have found by surprise.

     Looking backwards at the dates of adoption of these 
constitutions I can not explain why I expected to find 
differences.


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+++■■■■■ r_940612 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (215)
To:      Frank Scheidt                           9 Jun 94 15:50:10
Subject: Intellect ... sorta ...                

FS>  FS>  MG> How could it stop electricity from flowing?

FS>  FS> How could WHAT stop the flow of electrons?

FS>  MG> Your imagined god.  (You god has no sex unless you hold it
FS>  MG> reproduces.  Therefore the proper pronoun is neuter.)

FS>  C'mon, Matt.  You can do better than that ...  [sigh] ...  
FS>  show some respect ...  [s#2] ...

     Respect is related to gender?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (220)
To:      All                                     9 Jun 94 18:39:10
Subject: Waco interest                          

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


June 1 1994 [received 9 June 1994]

[from] Department of Justice [by letterhead and envelop]
Criminal division

Mr. Matt Giwer
1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin, FL 34698

Dear Mr. Giwer:

     This responds to your letter to the Attorney General 
                                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
concerning the Branch Davidians and David Koresh.

     Let me begin by saying that although the President would 
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
like to respond to all citizen correspondence he receives, his 
extensive, official duties preclude him doing so.  Since the 
Department of Justice deals with the criminal justice system, his 
staff forwarded your letter here for response.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     On February 28, 1993 the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
Firearms ("ATF") attempted to execute arrest and search warrants 
at the Branch Davidian compound outside of Waco, Texas.  A 
shootout ensued, during which four ATF agents were killed and 15 
agents were wounded.  For 51 days, federal agents attempted to 
negotiate with David Koresh for his surrender and the release of 
all those inside, including the children.  This standoff with 
federal agents ended tragically with a fire at the compound on 
April 19,1993.

     We recognize that the tragedy resulting from this situation 
has resulted in concern and anguish throughout the country.  
However, since the Branch Davidian matter is the subject of an 
ongoing investigation, any further comment by the Department 
would not be appropriate.  Thank you for sharing your views.

                         Sincerely,

                              /s/

                         Karen Tinkham, Chief
                         Correspondence Staff
                         Executive Office

=====

     It also my 13 April 1994 took a very circuitous route 
to get to the Justice Department.  I do not explain it.

     I would also have to ask just what the ongoing negotiations 
might be over.

     This is the original letter.

=====

                          13 April 1994

Janet Reno
Attorney General
Department of Justice
Washington DC 20530


Dear MS Reno,

     I have been waiting a year now for you to do your job
regarding Waco.  I am disappointed you have not done it.
     The BATF announced it had planned the raid in advance.  It
announced it moved up the date by one day of the attack only
because of a compromise of security.  The warrant would have
been dead on the day they planned the attack.
     This is conspiracy to violate civil rights.  It is a crime
worth ten years.  You have done nothing to pursue this crime.
     When do you plan to do your job?


                          Respectfully,




                           Matt Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (226)
To:      Larry Sites                            10 Jun 94 02:26:10
Subject: JUSTICE AND VENGENCE                   

LS> MG>      Your venue of justice is the courts.  Your property (by 
LS> MG> a deliberate and willful part of the law) has already been 
LS> MG> tried and found guilty.  You must prove your property was 
LS> MG> innocent.  Given the cost of suits in law and our lack of 
LS> MG> universal legal care is beyond the means of most people.  In 
LS> MG> fact it is beyond the value of the property legally stolen 
LS> MG> in most cases.

LS>  Here in San Diego, HUNDREDs of seized vehicles are 
LS>  auctioned off EVERY WEEK.  I bought one and 6 months later 
LS>  the previous owner approached me in a parking lot.  He 
LS>  admitted that he was caught with drugs in the glovebox when 
LS>  crossing the border from Mexico.  He did not say if he was 
LS>  ever convicted.  Now get this, he was most interested in how 
LS>  long I had the vehicle as his lawyer was STILL asking for 
LS>  money to pursue getting it back 6 months after the 
LS>  government disposed of it and there was no legal basis to 
LS>  get it from the subsequent owner, me.  This crap is nothing 
LS>  but a way of subsidizing government and lawyers.

     Do I have to rest my case or is it sufficient to say I have 
made my point? 



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+++■■■■■ r_940623 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (27)
To:      Jim Higgins                            11 Jun 94 18:20:10
Subject: Intellect ... sorta ...                

JH> Matt Giwer to Frank Scheidt on 01 Jun

JH>  MG> How could it stop electricity from flowing?

JH>  FS> How could WHAT stop the flow of electrons?

JH>  MG>  Your imagined god.  (You god has no sex unless you hold it 
JH>  MG>  reproduces.  Therefore the proper pronoun is neuter.)

JH>  Nonsense!  Many of the world's languages apply masculine 
JH>  and feminine gender to nouns, God being a noun.  English, 
JH>  as a holdover from the roots of the language, refers to 
JH>  persons and beings, whether spiritual or anthropomorphic 
JH>  using pronouns like he or she because we consider "it" to 
JH>  be highly impersonal, or even insulting when applied to a 
JH>  conscious being.  Sex or sexuality have NOTHING WHATSOEVER 
JH>  to do with it.

     English has what is known as natural gender.  As the 
feminists raised the issue of gender, I have only applied the 
obviously correct gender.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (28)
To:      Geoff Wilbur                           11 Jun 94 18:23:10
Subject: Ollie North for Senator                

GW>  MG>       As I read the mood, it is to stick it to the 
GW>  MG>  sanctimonious hypocrites in spades.  It is a matter of the 
GW>  MG>  more baggage North carries the better as long as he can 
GW>  MG>  imply it without saying it.

GW>  Being able to avoid admitting to anything got our President 
GW>  elected...  

     Actually he said keeping his activities secret got him 
elected.

maybe Ollie can make it work once for the 
GW>  Republicans, too.  (Different things to avoid admitting, 
GW>  but the same concept of avoidance, anyway.)

     I wish I were back in Virginia to work for his campaign.  It 
would be extremely satisfying.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (29)
To:      Bert Byfield                           11 Jun 94 18:25:10
Subject: Red Shift Vs Creation                  

BB>  MG>       How do you explain their writing in a variant of a 
BB>  MG>  Phoenician script rather than in Egyptian, which would be 
BB>  MG>  the only written language they would have known?

BB>  It's a small world.  If someone forced me to build pyramids 
BB>  or whatever I wouldn't adopt their language either.

     They did not build pyramids.  They had the brick concession.  

     That is not the way language works.  They came on the scene 
with Jacob as goat herders.  No cities, roads, tents at best.  
When that happens people pick up the words in the language where 
first encountered.  We see it happening today.  

BB>  MG>       How do explain not one slighest bit of archeologic 
BB>  MG>  evidence evidence in Egypt or in the wilderness of them 
BB>  MG>  every existing?

BB>  There is a vast sea of things that Egyptian history, what 
BB>  we have of it, does not mention nor prove.  This is crap.  

     And until there is the first bit of evidence there is no 
reason to accept a story that is patently absurd of the face of 
it.

BB>  Jew-bashing is stupid.

     I do not see how you get from there to here.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (30)
To:      Fred Garvin                            11 Jun 94 18:35:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

FG>  MG>       Think about it.  Why are they are different ships?  If 
FG>  MG>  trouble starts on the hospital ship are the Marines going 
FG>  MG>  to swim over?  Why did they simply not embark on the 
FG>  MG>  hospital ship?

FG>  Dunno.  I haven't heard of another ship containing Marines.  
FG>  How many Marines? If an invasion is planned, I sure hope 
FG>  there is more than one ship carrying out the operation!

     They did not give out a number which was also interesting.

     Three days ago 143 personnel from the McDill VA hospital 
were sent to Guantanamo also to deal with Haitian refugees.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (31)
To:      Mark Phillips                          11 Jun 94 18:38:10
Subject: The invasion has sta                   

MP> MG> MP>   MG>       Is there anyone out their stupid enough to think 
MP> MG> MP>   we MG>  are not going to start killing Haitians in a few 
MP> MG> MP>   days?

MP> MG> MP> Got a problem with that Mr. Paranoid?
MP> MG>
MP> MG>      Yes.

MP> Why?

     I don't accept killing unless absolutely necessary.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (32)
To:      All                                    12 Jun 94 04:06:10
Subject: Waco with a difference                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Every few months I get involved in the Waco debate enough to 
feel the need to re-post this reply.  I think it continues to 
have bearing on the on-going discussion.

===

LW> What do you think the FBI should have done?  What are your
LW> credentials?

     Frankly good sir, I have no credentials other than what I
have observed in circumstances similar to what the government
claims them to have been.
     But I am glad you finally asked.  Not me, but close enough.
     One of the first things you do in a potential suicide
situation (vice the hostage situation the government was falsely
claiming) is to get every family member possible to make the most
emotional plea and assurance possible that they must NOT commit
suicide because they are loved and they will be given the best of
treatment.
     What is not done, absolutely not done, is arrest hostages.
OK, perhaps the government does have an interest in keeping tabs
on them, so they are given "house arrest" with family and
regularly show that on TV and report it on radio without showing
the guards outside the house.
     What you do not do is provoke a case where the attorneys of
the arrested hostages can go to court, claim they are being held
without charges in violation of the constitution, hear that
denied and the appeal of that denied.  You do NOT let people hear
that IF they surrender they will be arrested and held without
charges with a cellmate named Bubba.
     You do make those who come out as happy as possible and make
that the offer for those who leave.
     In line with this you do NOT arrest the parents and forcibly
separate them from their children and consign them to foster
homes of strangers.
     All this does is send the solid message, "This WILL happen
to you!"
     What else do you do with a potential suicide?  You do not,
repeat not, provide any self fulfilling prophecies.  That is, you
never reinforce the suicide's reasons for suicide.  So the word
should have been, "This was a tragic misunderstanding.  We need
to work it out.  You have to understand our position we can not
walk away but we will offer you a situation similar to what you
have now while awaiting it going to trial."
     And as to how?  Real simple.  Surrender your weapons and
allow our guards inside to supervise.  In return the gov would
return power and offer monitored but unlimited phone access.
They would provided non-handcuffed passage to and from
arraignment and trial.
     What the government did to was present a "final
confrontation between good and evil" situation to them,
reinforcing their beliefs.  And it was a confrontation and yes it
was final.  Yes, the government reinforced their beliefs, the
last thing one does in a suicide situation.
     =====
     The problem with going any further is that there is only one
other MAJOR scenario which is that of a hostage situation.  There
are no parallels to this kind of "hostage" situation.  A hostage
is always taken or forcibly restrained and used as a bargaining
chip with the authorities.  Their own children definitely were
not either taken nor forcibly restrained.
     Since there was no hostage situation there is no way to say
what should of should not have been done regarding hostages.

     =====

     The Religious Fanatic scenario is about mid way between the
psychotic and the suicidal case.  However in this case one does
not ever fulfill prophecy.  One does as many things that
contradict prophecy as possible.

     What one does do is put it back to a purely civil matter and
NEVER EVER attack their religious beliefs as was done regularly
in press releases and news conferences.  One does not call a true
believer a nutcase any more than one directly challenges a
creationist and expect acceptance.

     =====

     So let us go on to the minor violent psychotic scenario.
What the government does NOT do is to insult a violent psychotic
much less a group of them.

     In that vein one does not say they are hiding behind
children.

     They do not say they are hiding behind women.

     Since women were joining the cult independently one does not
insult female psychotics by saying the men are hiding behind them
when they are bragging as to which woman got which government
bastard.

     So what should have been done?  A total and complete scare
campaign, a war of nerves, random gun fire in the middle of the
night, blanks or the real thing through the wall above head level
(that is what snipers are for but if they are truly psychotic
sometimes you have to penetrate a few skulls.)

     This is better known as the snake pit treatment.  If in fact
they are truly psychotic (which I am not proposing) then
demonstrating the penalty of the psychosis they have chosen is
the best way to handle it.

     =====

     Let us go on to the child abuse allegation even though it is
not a Federal matter and never has been.

     Child abusers are most commonly into open denial or blaming
it on the children.  One does not openly confront a child abuser
with his behavior unless in control of the situation.

     Rather the government should have treated them as very
normal parents -- all of them.  And then assure them the
allegations would be handled by the appropriate state
authorities -- but in the mean time ... come up with something
appropriate like regular visitation by social workers, perhaps a
couple of live in social workers just to be sure, plenty of
options to negotiate.

     =====

     Going on to the methamphetamine lab allegation ...

     =====

     No, I will not go into that one or any other.  I have
covered the major ones the gov has floated more than once and the
drug lab was so absurd they never repeated it.

     So what could the government have done?  I would suggest it
is very simple, whatever is appropriate to what they really
believe as opposed to what they said.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (34)
To:      Phillip Robertson                      12 Jun 94 17:27:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

PR>  Maybe invading Haiti means helping them redo their 
PR>   government.  Where did you hear of the US invading Haiti? 
PR>   It still sounds far-fetched to me.

     I am just putting together what I am hearing in the news.

     Two weeks ago I hear the US has an agreement with Jamaica to 
use the port of Kingston to screen refugees.  Then I hear in one 
news report of a ship load of Marines and a hospital ship are 
going to meet off of Haiti to do the screening.  Next I hear of 
143 medical personnel being sent to Guantanamo to screen 
refugees.

     Either there is going to be an invasion or we are evacuating 
the island.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (35)
To:      Glenn Turner                           12 Jun 94 20:21:10
Subject: Waco                                   

GT>  Can someone tell me if there's an un-biased book on the 
GT>  Waco affair? I'd like to know what actually happened.

     No such luck.  There were a couple quickies but they were 
straight from the press conferences.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (36)
To:      Michael Shirley                        13 Jun 94 20:23:10
Subject: Ultimatum                              

MS> MG>      The question that needs be answered is whether or not 
MS> MG> the army will remain neutral.  If they will, it is a clean 
MS> MG> and near bloodless win.  If not it will take longer.  I've 
MS> MG> been expecting this for thirty years.  I was hoping I would 
MS> MG> never see come this far but nothing has turned anything 
MS> MG> around.

MS>          My guess is that the Army will obey it's orders and 
MS>  kill us if ordered to do so.  I also suggest that a lot of 
MS>  the current activity in combat units with questionaires and 
MS>  gun registration orders is to provide DoD with a list of 
MS>  politically reliable and politically unreliable troops.  The 
MS>  politically unreliable troops, (i.e.  the ones who would 
MS>  actually uphold their oath to the Constitution) will 
MS>  probably wind up either in Bosnia or Korea, dying in a war 
MS>  that will be fought in such a way as to incur a maxium 
MS>  number of friendly casualties.  That way, the troops won't 
MS>  come back to complicate Clinton's political or internal 
MS>  security problems.  A hero's death in a foreign conflict 
MS>  offers much less political risk than a purge with it's 
MS>  imprisonment and execution would here at home.

     The foreign war makes it possible.  Point well taken.  A 
protracted war for "a good cause" will get them out of the 
country.  I admit this is the first time I have thought of the 
US military in terms of political reliability.

MS>          I also find the current Chairman of JCS to be very 
MS>  suspect.  Clinton fears and hates the military, not least of 
MS>  which because the traditional military virtues are contrary 
MS>  to everything that he believes in.  

     I can not discuss this point.  I do not follow senior 
military officers much less army officers.  However, I was 
surprised at the lack of resume in the news when he was 
appointed.  I am used to not getting much unless it is researched 
but this man appears to have been a desk jockey.

     Having been a desk jockey I can't find a problem with that 
but I would expect to find more in the career.

MS>          If the people in DC really have to push the whole 
MS>  damned country over the edge, I most certainly hope that I 
MS>  survive the war long enough to at least see them pay the 
MS>  price for all of the human misery that they're going to 
MS>  bring down onto everyone's heads.  

     That is all we can hope for at the moment.  

     I do sincerely propose we stop the wheels of the world.

Anyone who looks forward 
MS>  to what is to come, either is ignorant of what will really 
MS>  happen, or is a strange sort of person who would find Hell 
MS>  a congenial place.  It isn't going to be an adventure, but 
MS>  rather the kind of nightmare that makes people wake up 
MS>  screaming.

     They belong on the other side.

MS>          Like you, I've been expecting this to happen ever 
MS>  since I was a kid reading about Edward Kennedy's demand 
MS>  that the National Guard be sent door to door to collect my 
MS>  gun.  

     I called it the first time I realized the government was 
intentioned upon working social change.  It was one thing to make 
something illegal, to prevent a newly created evil.  It is 
another matter to use the force of government to change people's 
behavior toward some political value judgement.  At that point 
the question becomes WHO is in charge.  The answer is, the 
government.  It was only a matter of time.

MS>  --- * SLMR 2.1a * "Better to die on your feet than to live 
MS>   on your knees."

     I never expected to get out of this world alive.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (37)
To:      Michael Shirley                        14 Jun 94 00:47:10
Subject: Sedition?             (1)              

MS>          As far as I know, the limitations on the States are 
MS>  still intact, but the limitation on ex post facto laws at 
MS>  the Federal level died with the EPA Superfund Law.  Keep in 
MS>  mind that individuals and corporate entitites are legally 
MS>  held liable for acts which were perfectly permissible when 
MS>  they were committed.

     Let me tell you a story.  You do not have to believe it but 
to the best of my knowledge and recounting it is true.

     There is a board named the Elite Few in Alexandria, 
Virginia, a DC suburb.  Given its start and evolution I was a 
charter member.  About five years ago a man named William Frank 
logged on.  He was a lawyer who produced a pro-environment 
newsletter.  

     We did not have much in common on the environment (and the 
sysop at the time and I saw eye to eye on such matters.)  He 
tells me he is interested in joining the EPA to introduce the 
legal argument of liability from the beginning of time. 

     Piracy was the nicest thing I said about the matter.  

     After about of month of slamming him the SYSOP posted to me 
messages they had exchanged.  It seems he privately asked the 
SYSOP a few simple questions and he responded with the logical 
obvious answer, make them liable from the past.  The SYSOP is a 
good friend and sent this to me as an apology for, in his words, 
creating a monster.  

     THAT is where it started.  The truly guilty party is now 
working in Kentucky.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (38)
To:      All                                    14 Jun 94 02:50:10
Subject: a Wasted President                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Since you were born can you possibly imagine discussing the 
variations of the president's penis before now?

     18 months ago could you have imagined Waco? 

     This slime bucket is dead meat.

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (41)
To:      Jim Higgins                            14 Jun 94 18:37:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills                  

JH>  MG> "Stop the Wheels of the World"

JH>  What you seem to propose is the ruination of the economy as 
JH>  a means for bringing the government to its knees.  This is 
JH>  somewhat akin to starving oneself to get rid of a leech.  I 
JH>  prefer an approach which makes the leech suffer.

     I am pointing out that will happen in a revolution in any 
event.  In fact that will be the only way to win a revolution.  I 
am simply pointing out we need not do any shooting to achieve the 
same ends.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (42)
To:      All                                    15 Jun 94 03:57:10
Subject: Waco 1                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      "David?  There is a phone call for you in your office."
     "This is David."
     "David, I met a TV guy on my way to the grocery.  He asked
directions to Mt. Carmel.  He said something big is coming coming
down there but he didn't know what.  I'll get back as soon as I
can."
     "No hurry, Jim, take your time.  Did he know who is
coming?"
     "No.  He said they never tell cameramen anything."
     "Finish up whatever you are doing and get back when you can.
I'll take care of everything."
     David returned to the front living room and shook hands with
the "secret" agent.  "I have enjoyed our conversations.  It looks
like you have work to do outside.  Good luck to you."  The secret
agent almost protested his innocence but thought better of it and
gripped David's hand harder.  "Good luck to you all."
     After the agent left he said to Wayne, "There goes a good
man.  I don't think he really liked being a Judas to us.  Too bad
he couldn't say who he works for.  I might have saved him if he
had."
     "You can't save everyone, David."
     "Thanks, Wayne, but when God works through me anything is
possible.  Would you ask Sarah to put up a pot of coffee for our
guests?"
     "Certainly, David."
     David retired to his upstairs room to pray for strength and
guidance. He offered some prayers almost every hour.  It inspired
him.  And now the Lord was sending him many converts and he had a
chance to testify for the Lord on camera.  The Lord was sending
him a test and a gift.  He was thankful.
     His prayers lasted hardly ten minutes when he heard
firecrakers outside.  He was indigent.  The kids were supposed
to be in the chapel for Sunday School.  He went down the stairs
working up a mood of righteous anger that he hoped was stern
enough to impress them this time.
     Heading for the front door he was stopped by Wayne.  "David
there are men outside, lots of them.  They shot our dogs."
     Now he was trying to control rage.  What right did anyone
have to come onto a man's property and shoot his animals?
     He swung open the front door and demanded, "What's going on
here."  Suddenly pain in his wrist and then again in his
shoulder.  He fell to the floor kicking the door shut seeing
bullet holes appear in the door above him.  He crawled away from
the door using his good arm.
     "Wayne!  Did you see who they are?"
     "No.  How badly are you hurt?"
     "I don't know yet."
     They heard a loud noise from the direction of the chapel
followed by the screams of women and children.
     "That sounded like an explosion, Dave."
     "My God, what are those people?"
     "See what happened.  Tell Steve to open the armory to the
men.  Tell them to hold their fire unless someone is hurt."
     From the top of the stairs Amy was screaming his name.
     "Everything will be fine, Amy.  The Lord will see us through
this."
     "David!  They are shooting at us and the babies up here!"
     Now was the time for the calm the Lord had taught him in his
ministry.  "Tell everyone to get down on the floor and pray.  I
will get help."
     He got to his feet and ran squat to the nearest phone in
Wayne's office bullets coming through the windows and walls.  He
brushed a curtain and it immediately drew machine gun fire.
     Getting to the office he heard the sound of helicopters and
the sound of different gunfire.  Amy screamed again, "They hit
me, David, they hit me trough the ceiling!"  From down the
hallway he heard a man shout, "Enough!," and the sound of a large
bore rifle.
     Koresh blessed his aim and immediately regretted the
thought.
     He tried to dial with his right hand but his arm would not
move, numb now, the pain had not started.  He tried to turn
himself to use his left and he fell to the floor with the pain in
his side.  Lay still and pulled the phone to the floor by its
cord to where he could use his left.
     "Tell them to call it off.  We told you we would talk.  You
didn't have to do this."
     "Who is this?"  
     "This is David Koresh at Mt. Carmel.  They are shooting at
us out here.  You've killed my children.  Call it off."
     "Who is doing it, David."
     "I don't know.  Call it off."
     "Are you shooting back?"
     "Now we are."
     The helicopters were coming back firing and firing through
the roof.  Sounds of explosions were making the house shake.
Bullets continued to come through the walls.
     The return fire was becoming more frequent.  To himself,
"Lord forgive me but I hope we kill them all."
     "You stay on the phone, David, I'll try to contact them."
     "Who are they."
     "That doesn't matter now.  I'll be back to you."
     Wayne returned to report.
     "I couldn't stop them from shooting, David.  When they heard
Amy scream I couldn't do a thing."
     "You tried, Wayne, now get your gun and try to keep us alive
until help gets here."
     "David, I think those people outside are the help."



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (46)
To:      Steve Tester                           15 Jun 94 13:31:10
Subject: Gun laws (ie Stupid)                   

ST>  Could anyone out there tell me what I can legally do with 
ST>  my new old SKS? I have heard that folding stocks and FIXED 
ST>  30 rnd.  mags will fly, but I know detachable mags over 10 
ST>  rnds.  wont.  OK I need sec.  922 (I think)

     Until the law actually goes into effect you can name your 
price of it.  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (47)
To:      Kim Kelley                             15 Jun 94 21:08:10
Subject: All You Non-smokers,                   

KK> RJ-->MG>  I was talking about the bulk of smokers who fall
KK> RJ-->MG>PS> PS>  in the bottom 10% of our socio-economic strata.  I have a
KK> RJ-->MG>PS> PS>  foster child who used to drink beer instead of milk 
because
KK> RJ-->MG>PS> PS>  it was "all mommy could afford".

KK> The truth here is that it's probably all that mommy wanted to drink.
KK> Milk if far, far cheaper than beer, so this was a silly statement.

     I think that was his point.

KK> RJ-->MG>PS> MG>     I am still curious what gave government busybodies
KK> the righ RJ-->MG>PS> MG>to intrude on family matters.

KK>  I am adopted.  On one hand, I'm GLAD the government 
KK>  interferred.  I had a wonderful life.  On the other hand, the 
KK>  government has denied me access to my birth records for all 
KK>  time - and I didn't sign a darn thing!!!

     Give the other side of the story a chance.

KK> RJ-->MG>That's why I have foster
                              ~~~~~~
KK> RJ-->MG>PS>  children and, based on their stories, I'm VERY glad the
                 ~~~~~~~~
KK> RJ-->MG>PS>  government got involved in their lives.  I know that the
KK> RJ-->MG>PS>  "rights" nuts get all aquiver from such talk.  Sorry, I
KK> RJ-->MG>PS>  don't agree with their arguments.

KK> RJ-->MG>      Of course you do not agree.  Foster parents are paid 
KK> RJ-->MG> for being foster parents.  You are profiting from the 
KK> RJ-->MG> policy.  Why would you disagree?

KK> True, but adoptive parents are NOT, Matt.

     The subject was not adoptive parents.

KK> RJ-->It seems that you haven't changed your spots Matt. Since the childs
KK> welfar RJ-->at stake, and these are the kids YOU are calling the
KK> Gangbangers/criminals RJ-->know your thinking. Then maybe, just maybe
KK> this guy can do something to ch RJ-->the outcome of a kids life. I think
KK> he has more 'Backbone' then you ever w RJ-->He is a do-er, not the
KK> Whinner you come-off to be.

KK> Well, I'm not a criminal, and I fall into this description.

     Explain to RJ.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (53)
To:      Bert Byfield                           16 Jun 94 17:40:10
Subject: 00:  Ultimatum                         

BB>  MG>       They will be converging upon an undisciplined, armed 
BB>  MG>  group of people.  They are stopped right there.  One 
BB>  MG>  gunshot and they people who know what they are going open 
BB>  MG>  fire.

BB>  One gunshot and Linda Thomson will be a household world and 
BB>  the country will be polarized as if struck by lightning.  
BB>  One gunshot and Linda Thompson has won.  One gunshot and 
BB>  Liberty is OURS.  

     "In an apparent coup attempt today, Linda Thompson and her 
cult followers were killed and 300 arrested when they held an 
armed march on the White House and the Capitol Building intending 
to arrest the President and Congress.  When they were confronted 
by police they opened fire.  Police returned fire.  It is 
believed this cult is closely related to the David Koresh cult.  
It thought they were using automatic weapons."

     And then the spin gets worse.

BB>  MG> BB>  It's a tradition.  The streets belong to The People.

BB>  MG>      Armed people?  Or did you miss that?

BB>  I'm ignoring it.  I think it is Public Relations, media 
BB>  management, etc..  Because your objections are perfectly 
BB>  valid, if the confrontation were to be truly military.  

     I will grant you it will not be a military confrontation.  
Members of the Thompson cult are not up to it.  

But 
BB>  this is OUR OWN ARMY, not an enemy.  

     Who is "our" in this statement?

Besides, in Tienammen 
BB>  (sp?) Square, they did rather well for themselves against 
BB>  tanks, don't you think?  

     I notice they died are most are unaccounted for.

BB>  Are we too wimpy for that stuff?

     You are in love with death.

BB>  MG>       They were not carrying guns with the objective of 
BB>  MG>  arresting the President and Congress.

BB>  Rhetoric.  Infeasible, as you have been saying.  Linda 
BB>  Thompson is not a fool.

     And just how do you know that?  The only thing I have seen 
as a call is MEET armed and do it.  Who is in charge?  Who is 
giving the orders?  What are the rules of engagement?  Will the 
guns be loaded or unloaded?  Who will give the order to load?  
Who will the people in the middle of this mingling mob be 
aiming at?  Who will give the order to fire?

     Linda Thompson?  How many would recognize her face much less 
her voice?  

BB>  Arrests of political activists is a long tradition.  

     This is an insurrection.  It should be the final step after 
politics fails not the first step.

It 
BB>  will put Linda Thompson in the news, all across the nation.  

     "The BATF announce today their inspection of the Thompson 
cult members indicated most were assault weapons of the type 
recently put under severe regulation by the government because 
their only purpose is to kill people.  The survivors have been 
put into detention while it is determined what charges to file 
against them.  No press contact has been allowed."

BB>  The real danger is that they DON'T arrest her and the 
BB>  others.  Trials = news = propaganda = victory for liberty.

     And of course the Davidian trial exonerated them all in the 
public mind.  Perhaps you would like to hold the Weaver trial 
exonerated him in the public mind?  The one local station I know 
that covered it reported he was found guilty of murder.  Do you 
have another example in mind?

BB>  MG>      These activists will be dead if they try it.

BB>  Do you suppose that danger stopped Thomas Jefferson and 
BB>  George Washington 

     If after making their decisions the first thing they had 
done was to grab a gun and demand the governor surrender it would 
have been a very short revolution.

BB>  I saw Doctor 
BB>  Spock, the famous baby doctor who wrote The Baby Book, in a 
BB>  Washington mob.  He smiled at me when he noticed me 
BB>  recognizing him from his picture on the back of the book my 
BB>  mother kept around the house like a baby bible.   Later I 
BB>  saw his picture in the paper, as one of the thousands 
BB>  jailed in a football stadium.  No gain without risk.

     I was unaware he had ever been part of an armed mob that had 
made the penalty for non-compliance a bloody coup.  When did this 
happen?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (54)
To:      Bert Byfield                           16 Jun 94 18:06:10
Subject: 10Th Ammendment Bills                  

BB>  MG>       It is called a slaughter and there way of telling 
BB>  MG>  right now who would win the propaganda victory although I 
BB>  MG>  can not see the government losing it.

BB>  You are still thinking of a military struggle.  We are not 
BB>  invading the USA, Matt.  We ARE the USA.  I think  you have 
BB>  said so many rude things about the Viet Nam demonstrators 
BB>  that you are now just afraid you will find yourself in the 
BB>  street marching against tanks and troopers on the wrong 
BB>  side of the line.  Cross over.  It's not so bad.  It's 
BB>  where Americans belong.  Thoreau was once arrested for not 
BB>  paying a tax.  A friend asked him, "What are you doing in 
BB>  jail?"  "The real question," Thoreau replied, "is what are 
BB>  YOU doing on the outside?"

     So you are going up against troops and tanks with hand 
weapons and you expect to accomplish something.

     If you must do something violent plant mines to blow the 
crap out of the tanks.  An insurgency is at its weakest in a 
direct confrontation and its strongest while avoiding it.  One 
hit and run sniper is better than a hundred untrained irregulars 
in a face to face confrontation.

BB>  MG>   * RM 1.3 01261 * First they came for Weaver and I did not 
BB>  MG>  speak.  Then they

BB> So speak.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (55)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        17 Jun 94 00:23:10
Subject: Chicken Willie                         

JB> Two wrongs don't make a right.

     And as the Chinese husband told his Chinese wife upon seeing 
his new son, Two Wongs don't make a White.  (It comes over better 
in Chinese.)


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (56)
To:      Ann Ross                               17 Jun 94 00:28:10
Subject: Fundie kikes                           

AR>  JP>  Your days are numbered fundie.  Better start praying to your 
AR>  JP>  God to save you.

AR>          I think it is safe to say we have been radicalized.  
AR>          Its time the churches were blown off the face of 
AR>          this country.  Just to borrow a page from Giwer's 
AR>          "book".......

     What ever I have done it certainly has your panties soaking.  
What might it have been?



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (57)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        17 Jun 94 00:31:10
Subject: Health Care                            

JB>  Heck, look at the problems we have since we politicized 
JB>  charity (i.e., welfare).  Doesn't anyone else find it, 
JB>  well, almost sick, that we actually debate whether gov't 
JB>  charity recipients can have so many children, and after 
JB>  that, we cut them off?  Is this really a decision that 
JB>  should be ours?  And, since we pay for it, is it a 
JB>  reasonable thing to bring up or to limit?

     And you wonder why I say I have given up hope?  When it 
started I was laughed at for saying it would come to limiting 
children.  Now it is being debated.  I first said, I told ya so, 
when the discussion was of Norplant as a requirement for 
continued welfare.  Now we are debating the number of children 
that will be underwritten.

     At least the Norplant idea was not half bad in that it is 
not liable to the "suffering of the new babies" arguments.  

     Let it be implemented.  Then in a few years, the "suffering" 
argument will be used to increase child support beyond present 
levels for the extras.  

     Then another limiting child limiting proposal will be made.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (58)
To:      Bert Byfield                           17 Jun 94 00:48:10
Subject: Ultimatum                              

BB>  I say it would be a bad deal, because it isn't likely that 
BB>  the rebels will be able to arrest any of King George's 
BB>  noblemen.  That is not the point of this exercise.  The 
BB>  point in this exercise is to get the ball rolling and get 
BB>  the attention of the media, while the lawyers work out the 
BB>  "New Deal" for the statists.

     I am getting the very strong impression you have not read 
that you are supposed to show up armed and equipped.  You call it 
an exercise.  This is the real thing.  It is not a drill.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (59)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 94 01:02:10
Subject: Waco #2                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      His arm had changed from numb to ache to pain.  While
holding on the phone he wrapped he belt above the hole to stop the
bleeding.  It was not until then he realized he was laying in a
pool of his own blood.  "Lord do not let me go into shock, I beg
you."  He felt calm returning.
     He barely heard his name being called over the gunfire.
Picking up the phone he said in a calmer voice, "This is David."
     "Good, David, I am trying to raise them on the radio now.
We are having trouble getting through."
     "Are they refusing to answer?"
     "I can't say that, David."
     "We knew you were coming you know.  We knew you were coming
to kill us before you knew you were coming."
     "No one is coming to kill you, David."
     "You have killed many of us already.  We knew you were going
to do that."
     "David, David, please don't do anything rash."
     "I have forgiven you as the has Lord commanded.  We are only
shooting to defend ourselves now."
     "I know you can't stop shooting.  I'm still trying to get
them to answer their radio."
     "Who are they?"
     "It is the government, David.  I am certain they are good
men thinking they are doing the right thing."
     "That is what Weaver thought."
     "Who, David?"
     "The government murdered his family."
     "Did you know him, David?"
     "Only in Christ."
     "My name is Lynch."
     "Your name is part of the government."
     "That's not fair, David."
     Wayne returned crawling on his belly cradling his .30-30 in
his best imitation of a raw recruit.
     "Better get your backside down."
     Wayne flopped.
     "The shooting is slowing.  I can't keep the men from
targeting the ones that aren't firing.  They are angry.  I can't
control them."
     Picking up the phone, "Lynch?"
     "Lynch here."
     "That cease fire has to happen soon.  I can't control my
people.  Your government is running out of ammunition.  They are
trying to kill them.  If there is no cease fire I will not be
able to save your government friends.  If I could get to them, I
could stop them but if I stand up I die and I can't bend my waist
from the pain.  You have to get the cease fire now."
     "I'll try saying that over the radio."
     "Thank you, Lynch"
     "Wayne, find Steve and the two of you stop as many as you
can.  Do your best."
     The telephone spoke again. 
     "Yes Lynch."
     "They answered this time.  They will agree to a cease fire.
Now you have to get your men to stop firing."
     "Your people first, Lynch.  I can't get around the house
very fast."
     "I'll tell them, David."
     "David, they say you have to stop shooting first."
     Outside the helicopters were coming back.  "Lynch, if those
helicopters are coming again.  If they do not turn back I will
not stop my people.  Tell them.  I will not let you murder any
more of us."
     In a moment the helicopters sound began to lessen, they were
leaving.
     "They said they would, David."
     "Thank you.  I will try to get my men to stop firing first.
I can't promise.  We did not start this."
     "I'm sure you didn't, David."
     "What are we going to do, David?"
     "Trust in the Lord, Wayne."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (60)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 94 02:01:10
Subject: WACO SPY SUES MEDIA                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: STEVE GUNHOUSE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/12/94 - 0001340
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another report from today's paper, this related to the Waco raid.

Agent in Davidian raid suing media
(Associated Press)
   Waco, Texas - The undercover agent who infiltrated the Branch Davidian
sect before an unsuccessful raid last year has sued two media outlets and
an ambulance service.
   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agent Robert Rodriguez blames
the Waco Tribune-Herald, KWTX-TV and American Medical Transport for causing
a confrontation between federal agents and Branch Davidians in an attempt
to make money from the coverage of the conflict.
   He is suing for unspecified damages, claiming emotional distress and
mental anguish.
   Waco attorney James Dunnam, who represents Rodriguez, has alleged the
media is to blame for alerting Koresh about the raid while Rodriguez was
still inside the compound.
   "Robert Rodriguez is sitting there with David Koresh ... when they were
tipped off wondering if he is going to get his head blown off," Dunnam
said. "Did he create that situation?"
   The lawsuit, filed Thursday in federal court in Waco, is the fourth
against the newspaper and TV station in connection with the raid, and the
second to name the ambulance service, which federal investigators found
tipped KWTX to the raid.

   The sidebar says that the paper and TV station are owned respectively by
Cox Texas Publications and Cox Enterprises.

   So now the feds want to blame the media, huh? What happpened to Janet
Reno being "responsible"?

Steve
 
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (61)
To:      All                                    17 Jun 94 04:46:10
Subject: Hillary the BAM                        

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     If it were not such a dud before Limbaugh got his hands on 
it, I presume everyone has heard of Hillary's story of her 
attempt to be come a BAM?  (Broad Ass Marine)  

     She was uglier than dog shit back then.  Amazing there has 
been little improvement.  (AND, she had to learn to wear 
contacts.)     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (74)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 03:24:10
Subject: Waco 3                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: MATT GIWER
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/18/94 - Not Yet Posted
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      When David had recovered he agreed with Wayne and was his
old, serene self in judging that trying to turn Wayne into a
Judas was to be expected of those who would kill him.  He had
laughed a bit to learn he had not been shot.
     They listened to the daily briefings primarily for the
amusement of what would be mentioned next.  The funniest one when
they heard it was the "not quite a denial" that mass suicide was
expected with a Jim Jones reference.  Amusement turned to anger
as every day that question was asked again and not quite denied.
     What did not amuse them was the unqualified statement they
were manufacturing drugs.  "Based upon infrared photos ... they
are manufacturing methamphetamine a controlled class 1 substance
in the same category as heroin."  David had picked up the phone
immediately and demanded to know why that story was being told.
     "We have very good reasons.  You will see the reasons in a
couple days."
     "Why would you lie?"
     "Have you resurrected your son yet?"
     "Bastards!" slamming down the phone with a "Lord forgive me"
under his breath.
     "Steve is an engineer.  See if he can think of anything we
are doing that might give them that drug idea."
     "Will do."
     Of course the answer was none.  But even more Steve offered
the opinion that it was flatly impossible for infrared to detect
any such thing unless they were producing it by the ton.
     "Those folks will use infrared to justify anything."
     Two days later the briefing contained the following news.
"The US Army has provided a tank and several CEVs to assist in
the siege of the compound at Waco."  "Impossible," Wayne had
commented at first.  A few hours later he got back to David.
     "Now it makes sense.  It is a federal felony to use the
military in civilian law enforcement except in one case.
Remember when they stated factually we were manufacturing drugs?
That is the one and only exception to the law.  They lied about
us violating the drug laws so they can violate the Posse
Comitatus law."
     "Wayne, the more I think of this the less chance I think we
have a fair trial.  I think if we surrender now, they are going
to continue to tell these lies in court and we are going to spend
our lives there.  I had been considering surrender but no longer.
We might as well spend our lives here as in prison."
     "Agreed, David."
     "I'll explain it to everyone tomorrow.  It will be their
choice if they want to leave."



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Secret Serv in Prez Bedroom,Fear Battered Husband Syndrome.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (75)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 03:25:10
Subject: Waco 4                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      While David was still recovery Wayne took over negotiations
with the FBI.  In the morning the FBI had given the press
briefing and essentially announced that all would soon be well as
they were in charge.  The recounted the same false account of
events as the BATF.  It was obvious the FBI was was not here to
investigate.  They were here to blame the Davidians. 
     When they called in the afternoon Wayne challenged them,
"Why are not investigating what happened?  Why are you not asking
for our side of it?"  The response was another demand to
surrender.
     Putting on his attorney's hat he asked, "To what charges do
you want us to surrender?"
     The answer was long but the highlights were murder of
federal agents, ambush of federal agents, possession of
controlled weapons.  In his head Wayne added up the entire list
to life plus sixty years.  And then he asked, "How many BATF have
you arrested?"  "None of course."
     "Will you entertain conducting an investigation of the
events and filing charges based upon our description of events?"
     "Of course not."
     "Why will you not do so?"
     "The BATF is the government.  The government takes care of
its own."
     "I think you have made your position clear.  It will take
some time to consider it."
     "Don't take forever.  We will not let you get away with
this."
     "I hear you."
     As Wayne mulled it over several facts were clear.  The lies
of the BATF were being accepted as gospel.  The entire government
was working to cover up the murders of one child and three
adults.  If they did not surrender to life in prison the
government would make things worse for them.  Not one word the
government was saying was true.  It was reasonable to expect they
would perjure themselves in court with the same lies.  It was one
group's word against another.
     And then there were the radio reports and talk shows.  It
appeared people were believing the lies.  It was a no win
situation.  There appeared no hope of a fair trial.
     He called back and said he would have to wait to consult
with David when he had recovered.
     "We know he isn't hurt.  There is no reason to wait for a
man who opened fire on the BATF."
     "That is not what happened, Wayne insisted."
     "That is the official truth.  We own the judge and the
courts.  However I am able to offer you an agreement if you will
testify against Koresh."
     Wayne slammed down the phone.



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * If you think health care is expensive now, wait til its free
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (99)
To:      All                                    18 Jun 94 21:04:10
Subject: Waco press release     01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: DAVID HANKINS
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/15/94 - 0004693
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 This  is  fresh  off the net, Matt.  I Thought you might be
interested...

-=>begin import<=-

Tue,  14  Jun  1994  18:32:36  -0400  (EDT)
From: Carol Moore 
Subject:   Davidian   Sentencing   Press Release
To: Libernet  Please distribute this to other lists.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Carol Moore 202/986-1847 Alan
Forschler 202/797-9877

 June 13, 1994---  COMMITTEE  DEMANDS ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET
RENO RESIGN OVER PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT IN TRIAL OF BRANCH
DAVIDIANS

Washington, D.C.--

 On Thursday, June 16, the  first day of sentencing of eight
Branch Davidians, members of the Committee for Waco  Justice
will  leaflet  the  U.S.   Department  of Justice located at
Pennsylvania and 10th streets from 12:30 to 1:30p.m.  We are
demanding the resignation of Attorney General Janet Reno for
her  role   in   condoning--   and  perhaps  evenpromoting--
prosecutorial misconduct  in  the  trial  of  eleven  Branch
Davidians  accused  of  conspiracy to murder federal agents.
All were found innocent of that charge.

 Eight Davidians were found guilty of weapons charges --five
of those  of  aiding  and  abetting  voluntary manslaughter.
Depending on the weapons allegedly  used,  defendants  could
face  from  five to thirty years in prison.  Some defendants
are expected to  present  new  evidence that might exonerate
them  during  "allocution"  before  sentencing.    Committee
members  believe  federal  prosecutors Ray Jahn, LeRoy Jahn,
William Johnston and John Finizy, who work under Janet Reno,
engaged in or condoned the following acts of misconduct:

 Group  trial  --this  unjust  tactic  was  used  to prevent
defendants who could testify to other defendants'  innocence
from  taking  the  stand  since once they did so prosecutors
could force them to present self-incriminating evidence.

 Destruction of evidence --the  steel  front door, which was
evidence BATF agents shot first and/or indiscriminately, was
never found, despite federal agents complete control of  the
crime  scene;  while BATF originally claimed it had video of
the first minutes of the  raid, prosecutors claimed at trial
equipment had failed and such video did not exist; similarly
the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  (FBI)  claims   its
surveillance  devices  failed  right  before  the April 19th
fire, destroying  any  evidence  of  Davidians  innocence of
starting the fire; prosecutors were at Mount Carmel the  day
FBI  tanks  destroyed  the  building  and with it definitive
evidence that federal agents fired indiscriminately and from
helicopters.

 Withholding  evidence   from   the   defense  --prosecutors
frequently broke the "Brady Rule" requiring  prosecutors  to
give  the defense the chance to inspect all evidence against
the defendants.  They  did  not  tell  defense attorneys, or
delayed until the last minute, that:  two  BATF  agents  had
changed  their  stories of who shot first; that they had two
witnesses who  could  identify  a  defendant;  that they had
evidence to prove one of those witnesses could not initially
identify that defendant; that they had a written  transcript
of  their  "star"  witness's  early  testimony  -- testimony
whichd iffered greatly from  that  she  would present at the
trial.

 Also, they would  not  allow  a  weapons  expert  hired  by
defense  attorneys  to  take  off  the  plastic  wrapping to
inspect  the  guns  thoroughly.   And  the  medical examiner
claimed that deceased Branch Davidian Perry Jones had only a
mouth wound, despite many Branch Davidians' claim  that  the
unarmed  Jones,  who  was standing next to the unarmed David
Koresh as he  answered  the  door,  was  killed by the first
barrage of BATF gunfire through the now-missing front  door.
The family currently cannot afford an independent autopsy.

 Influencing  Witnesses  --two  BATF  agents  changed  their
original  stories about the February 28th raid months later,
after speaking with federal agents and probably prosecutors;
an audio expert who earns  more than $100,000 a year working
for the FBI created a transcript of surveillance tapes which
claimed largely inaudible statements  were  proof  Davidians
spread  fuel  and started a fire, but ignored one Davidians'
audible statement  he  might  use  a  "Molotov  cocktail" in
self-defense against rampaging tanks.

 Possible  Pressure  on  Judge  --On  February   26th   U.S.
District  Judge Walter Smith let the Jury go after promising
defense attorneys  he  would  dismiss  a  weapons conviction
Jurors had voted for, contrary  to  his  instructions.   The
Prosecution  agreed  to his decision.  After conferring with
the Justice Department, prosecutors demanded Smith reinstate
the verdicts.  Smith  had  barely escaped Justice Department
prosecution himself a few weeks before on charges  of  lying
under oath.  He acceded to federal prosecutors' demand.  The
Committee  for  Waco  Justice has discovered that Janet Reno
and  other  Justice  Department  and  FBI  officials  in the
Washington FBI Operations Center had a "live audio feed"  to
surveillance  devices and could hear everything taped inside
Mount Carmel Center the morning  of the fire as it happened:
Davidians'  calls  for  negotiations,  tanks  smashing   the
building,  children  crying, people praying -- and any plans
for setting fires or using Molotv cocktails.

 Reno and her  deputies  should  be prosecuted for violating
the rights of innocent individuals killed  in  the  fire  --
whether  it  was started by FBI tanks knocking over lanterns
as Davidians claim  or  by  Davidian  actions of which Janet
Reno and others had foreknowledge.  Reno and other officials
and agents are being sued  in  civil  courts  for  over  one
billion  dollars  by relatives of deceased Branch Davidians.
They hold her and  others  responsible  whether the fire was
started purposively or accidentally.  Some are suing for the
deaths of women and children killed when  a  tank  collapsed
part  of  the  roof  of  the  concrete  room before the fire
started.

 The Committee for Waco Justice believes that any individual
who would allow  five  50  ton  tanks  to  rampage through a
building filled  with  women  and  children  probably  would
condone  and  even promote prosecutorial misconduct to cover
up her crimes and blame  her  victims.   Janet Reno is not a
hero.  She should resign  immediately.   The  Committee  for
Waco   Justice   supports   the  draft  bill  to  create  an
independent  "Waco  Investigation  Commission"  empowered to
fully  investigate  government  crimes  against  the  Branch
Davidians and report to Congress  with  recommendations  for
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (100)
To:      All                                    19 Jun 94 05:00:10
Subject: A good turn in program                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     So why do not NRA members sponsor and advertise a gun turn 
in program?  Think about it.  You can trade something dumb (gift 
certificates worth less than a sale discount or teddy bears) and 
stupid for guns.  It is a legitimate trade.  

     Certainly there can be careful conditions in the advertising 
such as "working condition" and the members can determine that at 
the time of turn in with a consolation prize of a free Big Mac or 
something like that.  I presume there are some legalities 
involved such as having an FFL type involved in the acceptance 
but it should not be too hard to cover contingencies.

     As for public relations, they are guaranteed to only be 
resold to NRA members (known responsible) and the profits will go 
to gun safety programs.  

     If people do not want guns we certainly do not want them to 
have them.  If they can be offered something of value in exchange 
everyone is happy and they have contributed to gun safety.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (101)
To:      All                                    19 Jun 94 05:00:10
Subject: NEW TACK ON SEARCHES                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: FRANK CONNER
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/13/94 - 0001391
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone in the Washington, D.C. area has a scanner to read an article 
into the board there is one in the Washington Times, June 13 issure, 
page A9 on what the cops are doing on house searches for guns as 
reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Briefly, deals with getting 
consent forms signed by residents to search for "illegal" guns. Quote: 
"Only a few have said no- and of course police keep a close eye on them. 
"We figure they have something to hide," said Lt. Joseph Richardson...." 
Scary.
--- MMGR v3.52
 * GUN-TALK: NRA MEMBERS ONLY CONFERENCE
                                                                              
---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Reinventing government does not mean pulling it out of a hat

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (109)
To:      Ann Ross                               12 Jun 94 22:07:10
Subject: 00:  Ultimatum                         

AR>  BB>  MG>        The call for carrying arms makes they liable to 
AR>  BB>  MG>   police arrest in both Virginia and DC.

AR>  BB>  Any political activist could be arrested.  It is part of
AR>  BB>  the game, too.  If you can't take the least risk of arrest,
AR>  BB>  you shouldn't have political convictions.

AR>  MG> These activists will be dead if they try it.

AR>          And I can not help but wonder at your hypocrisy 
AR>          that you helped influence these idiots.  Blood will 
AR>          be on your hands whether you acknowledge it or not.  
AR>          We know that it will.

     I have no idea where you are coming from on this, nor on 
much of anything else for that matter, nor does anyone else.  
Given that, I will take a guess.  

     I have consistantly said that if there is to be a revolution 
it is not to be face to face with the RA.  It is to be a war of 
attrition, of collapsing the government through economic loss.  I 
have since posted a way to do it with no violence at all.  I have 
also consistantly posted against the September shootout.

     Should there be a revolution?  Hell YES!  

     Can it be done bloodlessly?  Yes.

     I support the bloodless method.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (110)
To:      Jian Shan                              12 Jun 94 22:13:10
Subject: AIDS STATS                             

JS>  MG> Disease Control and Prevention, 

JS>  MG>  Which particular issue of the MMWR was it referring to?  
JS>  MG>  The ones I have have another category "gay and IV drug use" 
JS>  MG>  which  still puts gay over the half.  (You will note your 
JS>  MG>  percentages do  not add up to 100.)

JS>  I cited by source.  Go and look for yourself.

     And your source is the same as my source.  That is why I 
asked you for the issue which did NOT carry the mixed category of 
IV and Gay.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (111)
To:      Phillip Robertson                      13 Jun 94 01:40:10
Subject: The invasion has started               

PR>  Maybe invading Haiti means helping them redo their 
PR>   government.  Where did you hear of the US invading Haiti? 
PR>   It still sounds far-fetched to me.

     Haiti does not have the common sense to set up a government.  
The only reason I would support an invasion would be to make it a 
US territory with a candidate status for statehood.  AND they 
could vote as often as they wish for independence as does Puerto 
Rico.  US territories do not suffer from US oppression.  


---
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+++■■■■■ r_940624 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (233)
To:      Jim Higgins                            21 Jun 94 20:35:10
Subject: Another good cause                     

JH> MG>  As you can demonstrate nothing significantly different in 
JH> MG>  this form of speech than from the other examples that are 
JH> MG>  not equally regulated then it is solely based upon the 
JH> MG>  content.

JH>  No, it is based on the action.  

     The Supreme Court disagrees.

The restriction, namely 
JH>  that they must demonstrate away from the clinics, will 
      
     That is what I said.  It is a restriction based solely upon 
the subject matter of the protest.  That is a violation of free 
speech.

JH> MG>   Rather I ask which good cause will approve of next time to 
JH> MG>   limit our right of free speech?

JH>  Any fucking "good cause" which slaps individuals in the 
JH>  face when they are simply exercising their legal rights.  

     Striking another person is already illegal.  You have not 
answered the question.

JH>  The rights of individuals are as sacred as the rights of 
JH>  groups.  Now what part of that don't you understand?

     You support of restrictions based soley upon content.

JH> MG>  Certainly I think it is wrong to ban child pornography.  
JH> MG>  The primary source of it is Holland which points to is very 
JH> MG>  low rate for all sex crimes and claims the free publication 
JH> MG>  and distribution of all kinds of porn is a contributing 
JH> MG>  cause.

JH>  What sort of porn are you talking about?  The kind with 
JH>  naked kiddies sitting there looking vulnerable?  Or the 
JH>  kind where some guy is buggering or having full vaginal 
JH>  intercourse with the poor tykes?  Where do you draw the 
JH>  line?  

     That would be rape and already illegal.

Does it make a difference whether the kids are from 
JH>  Holland or your own child when he/she was that age?

     It is already illegal here also.  

JH> MG>  There is no way to argue before or after whether their view 
JH> MG>  correct any more than that our view is correct.  But there 
JH> MG>  are certainly two sides to the argument and I could equally 
JH> MG>  hold you are in favor of more children being harmed because 
JH> MG>  this specific type is banned.

JH>  You're on!  Take as many damned screens as you need.  Please 
JH>  keep your paragraph immediately above in each message so we 
JH>  can see the original claim along with the argument...  and 
JH>  try to keep to the point.

     To copy from above,

JH> MG>  Certainly I think it is wrong to ban child pornography.  
JH> MG>  The primary source of it is Holland which points to is very 
JH> MG>  low rate for all sex crimes and claims the free publication 
JH> MG>  and distribution of all kinds of porn is a contributing 
JH> MG>  cause.
====

JH> MG> The actions that are the subject of complaint are already
JH> MG> illegal.  This is prior censorship.

JH>  The willingness of local prosecutors to prosecute was 
JH>  essentially nil and the penalty was a small fine or 
JH>  nothing.  The laws protecting the individuals being 
JH>  harassed and battered by the protesters were not 
JH>  effective.

     The actions of local prosecutors are not relevant to the 
discussion.  If the fines were increased in ALL cases I would 
have no issue.  

     And I have to ask you what is different about strikers 
outside the place they are striking and why nothing is being done 
about it.  Why are not they kept 100 yds from what they are 
protesting?  The level of violence is much greater. 

JH> JH> One of the greatest dangers to our rights and liberties
JH> JH> is the abuse of them,

JH> MG> Screw you and Clinton too.

JH> Non sequiter.

     It follows in that you have yet to show one material 
difference between clinic demonstrators, union picket lines, and 
war protest.  You have cited issues which are already against the 
law.  You have continued to support this solely because it 
involves abortion.

JH> JH> for as surely as some do not realize their right to
JH> JH> swing a fist ends at someone else's nose,

JH> MG> Already illegal.

JH>  But not enforced on anti-abortion demonstrators until now.  

     Bullshit. They have been singled out for unique treatment.

JH>  They have walked free in record numbers after pushing, 
JH>  spitting, throwing blood, threatening, etc.  

     Sounds as though they learned well from the Vietnam protest 
movement.  Same tactics.  

Now they are 
JH>  stopped, or they find themselves committing a Federal crime 
JH>  vs one against an individual.  Big difference when it comes 
JH>  to the resources to prosecute, and the ability to resist 
JH>  threats and demonstrations if there is a prosecution.

     Protesting the Vietnam War should have been a federal crime 
also.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!
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+++■■■■■ r_940625 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (236)
To:      All                                    22 Jun 94 17:01:10
Subject: Verbal abuse                           

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Defense is not Abuse
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/22>

     While the nation is attempting to avert wars in both Haiti
and Korea the attention of the nation is riveted on O. J.
Simpson.  As expected the professional whiners are on the talk
shows talking about spousal abuse.  And of course the evil male
is guilty again.
     The innocence of the woman is presumptive.  It is axiomatic
that a woman can do nothing to deserve physical abuse.  I have to
ask, how can a man ever deserve verbal abuse from a woman?
     The scold or shrew is a well known character in literature.
How common they are in real life has not been the subject of any
study.  A question we can discuss is how many women aspire to
being victims?
     Every time you see or read or hear of a woman telling about
how she was beaten you have a professional victim.  Can it happen
once?  Certainly but those are not professional victims.  Those
that go through relationship after relationship with the same
results are professional victims.
     Why?  Listen to the explanation as to why so many next time.
"I didn't understand the kind of men I was seeking out."  Note
that makes them even a victim of themselves.
     She is now the consummate victim.  And when they go public
they get public humiliation and all the pity they can wallow in.
It has to be seriously asked if they sought out the wrong kind of
man or whether any kind of man would do and those men provoked
into violence.  Back to the axiom, no woman can do anything to
deserve physical abuse.
     I would rather ask if woman can provoke being beaten.  I
note there is nothing that can stop a determined women from
continuing such provocation until successful.
     What does she get out of it?  First, the attention of
friends, neighbors and the police.  Second, the courts
automatically side with the poor, weeping victim on the stand.
Third, if the man should want to get back into his own home and
see his own children again it will be on her terms.
     Can a woman be stopped with anything short of violence?
Court relief from the common scold ceased a couple centuries ago.
In the past we had a recognized crime that certainly can lead to
domestic violence.  Today we have no injunctive relief for it.  I
am not suggesting bringing back the scold's bridle but certainly
there is something between that and being laughed out of domestic
relations court.
     It would appear only reasonable in law to remove the
presumption of victim status from the woman.  It should be
recognized that women can just as easily be the cause of the
abuse they receive.  Or shall it continued to be presumed that no
man should ever snap under vicious verbal abuse every waking
moment while knowing there will be no end until the woman gets
the victim status she wants?

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.




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+++■■■■■ r_940626 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (213)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           23 Jun 94 04:01:10
Subject: CIA Agent Dr.Mack ?                    

 **********  Original From: CHUCK ZEPS
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/15/94 - 0010352
 **********             On: ABJECT - 0006 - AP-DITTOHEAD
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

        *** John E. Mack and the New World Order UFO's ***

In the Mar/Apr. issue of PSYCHOLOGY TODAY we have a sympathetic
article (pg.46-48,74-76 excerpts below). This reveals a man who has
never had a spiritual base but has viewed spiritualism as "stories"
throughout his life and career and whom has been affiliated with
a plethora of positions where he was associated with MIND CONTROL
experimentation financed by Richard Nixon's LEAA ( Law Enforcement
Assistance Administration ) to the tune of some $6 Billion from it's
inception in 1968 by the Department of Justice and whose moneys
were directed at BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION research projects. Dr. Mack
became "interested in alternate conciousness" programs around this
time and has continued to be involved with programs financed by the
MILITARY and CIA for use as weapons and behaviour modifiers.

----------------Excerpts from Psychology Today -----------------------

THE HARVARD PROFESSOR AND THE UFO'S ( Mar/Apr 1994 Psychology Today )

Mack was one of the men who forged Harvard's Cambridge Hospital Depar-
tament of Psychiatry into a premier teaching hospital ... and for four
years he was its head. He's been a member of the Boston Psychoanalytic
Institute, certified as a Child Psychoanalyst and Chairman of the
Exexcutive Committee for all five hospital-based departments of
psychiatry ... He's also a high-profile idealist who's been at the
forefront of efforts by his peers for GLOBAL PEACE AND CONSERVATION.
[emphasis added] He is founding Director of the Center for Psychological
Studies in the Nuclear Age and a member of Physicians for Social
Responsibility and International Physicians for the Prevention of
Nuclear War.
[...]
The list of accomplishments doesn't stop there; Mack has published
over 150 articles and books on subjects ranging from nightmares to
teenagers who kill thier mothers to Russian children's feelings
about nuclear weapons.
[...]
Can hypnosis recover repressed memories of sexual abuse, satanic
ritual abuse,past life abuse, and abuse at the hand's of aliens ? In
a tabloid culture, recovered memories have led to accusations and
court cases so damaging and sordid they've been compared to the
witch-hunts of another age.
John Mack's UFO work rests in great part of on the validity of
hypnosis as a tool to recover memory.
[...]
I'D BEEN CHASING JOHN MACK FOR months before he agreed to an
interview. One of his assistants, Karen Wesolowski, at a branch of
The Center for Psychology and Social Change, his own private umbrella
organization for UFO research, had been stonewalling me , supposedly
because he was under crushing pressure to finish his book, for which
Scribners had reportedly paid him a handsome $200,000.
[...]
The first time I spoke with Karen on the phone, I heard the clacking
of computer keys; she was taking down every word I said. She asked
more preliminary "who are you and what do you want" questions than
I'd encountered in a decade of reporting. She called Psychology Today
and asked to see samples of my work. She instructed me not to talk to
Dr. Mack's department head, Malka Notman, M.D., until he had a meeting
with her first.
[...]
He was raised in a rationalist, German-Jewish, New York household,
where his father read him the Bible, not because he believed in God
but because the stories were fascinating ... He went on to specialize
in child psychoanalysis.
[...]
Later he began to work on issues of nuclear disarmament, global peace
and conservation. He has travelled the world attending conferences on
ecology and the Earth, mingling with everyone from scientists to
philosophers, philanthropists and economists.
He also began to explore alternative approaches to conciousness. In
the 1970's Mack was taken with Werner Erhard's est and associated
MIND-ALTERING TECHNIQUES. (emphasis added)
[...]
Mack begs the question of past lives here. He says that at the time he
was in Russia as part of an exchange project, sponsored by Esalen, to
talk about the impact of the nuclear arms race on children.
His conciousness, he told me, "travelled in time to identify this
Russian man. After that experience I felt great empathy for the
Russians ...
[...]
Today he calls himself a "co-investigator and co-creator" in the
abduction phenomenon.
[...]
Mack's history he admits, has prepared him for exactly this work. One
almost wonders if he could have resisted it ... He is now ... a
participant in an ecological and global transformation that he sees
as part of a cosmic plan.

----------------End of Psychology Today Excerpts ------------------

* UFO "work" based on "recovered memory" work now largely discredited.
* Work history on control of nightmares and violence, induction and
  control of childrens emotions.
* Long history of involvement with "One-World / One Government" groups.
* Long history of study of "alternative-conciousness" techniques, also
  known as Psycho-Weaponry by the Military and DOJ who have funded this
  type of work at Harvard and other places.
* Claims of time-travel and past-life existence.
* Demonstrated history of antagonism with organised Religion and in
  statements I monitored in his interview on WWWE Cleveland 1100 AM
  a few weeks ago he stated satan was merely the "dark side" of
  conciousness which had to be "integrated" for spiritual development.
* Has no explanation why aliens never abduct homosexuals for sperm to
  be used to "breed" alien hybrids. Are aliens anti-sodomite ?
* No explanation why aliens only became interested in Ecology as the
  UN and other NGO's pushed the agenda. It seems they had no interest
  in "social issues" until those in Political office did.
* No explanation why so-called "advanced aliens" have never transferred
  any useful technology to help "save" the Earth with which they claim
  to be so concerned. Solar power, AIDS cure, cheaper PROZAC ...
* No explanation why aliens sexually abuse children and continue to
  stalk and rape them throughout their lives without consent.
-
chuck.zeps@dt-can.com
-
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:::VE3SMN:::NRA Member:::::@8F@CoCaMeXcArTeLgOvDoPeBuShMeNaGuN:::::::
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+++■■■■■ r_940628 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (16)
To:      Sean Funk                              24 Jun 94 01:26:10
Subject: 00:  ULTIMATUM                         

SF>  MG>  I know what she has posted as her plan.  It can be summed 
SF>  MG>  up as show up armed and wearing military insignia.

SF>  I hope they wear Nazi insignia, and show up to honor the 
SF>  president.  That should make a good story for the rest of 
SF>  the world...

     Let me try to put it in the most polite terms I can.  She is 
a fucking idiot.  Every other description is less polite.

SF>  MG>  They will be converging upon an undisciplined, armed group 
SF>  MG>  of people.  They are stopped right there.  One gunshot and 
SF>  MG>  they people who know what they are going open fire.

SF>  I hope the group kills the cops and the servicemen who come 
SF>  to 'protect' to people.  Get 'em back for Waco!

     My friend, gunships are going to show up from Ft. Belvoir 
and Quantico in 20 and 30 minutes respectively.  

SF>  MG>  Across the Memorial Bridge?  That is the route from the 
SF>  MG>  nearest staging area.  They can not get across the bridge 
SF>  MG>  before they are stopped and they are trapped on the 
SF>  MG>  bridge.

SF>  Not if they carry more thna guns, like bombs.  A few of them 
SF>  and the people accross the bridge holding them are DEAD.

     Carry bombs?  A bomb is a throw and run away device.  A bomb 
ain't worth shit unless it is in the right place at the right 
time.  Of course you are suggesting they should blow the bridge 
out from under themselves.

SF>  MG> They were not carrying guns with the objective of arresting
SF>  MG> the President and Congress.

SF>  WHooOA boy, I hope they take them and kill them.  They need 
SF>  to take the whole city and destroy it.  Any givernment 
SF>  official alive should be tried and conbicted as a war 
SF>  criminal - a revolutionary war criminal...  and out to the 
SF>  gallows, where they are set as an example to every other 
SF>  NAZI that wants to take over the country.

     You are an idiot.  She could barely take the Willard Hotel 
with her call.

SF>  MG> These activists will be dead if they try it.

SF>  Oh yeah, they will try to stay alive though.  If they have 
SF>  guns, and they are loaded, they will stay alive.  'Innocent 
SF>  military and police personnel' will lose their worthless 
SF>  lives 'protecting the city and state', but it will all be 
SF>  for a good cause.  The government needs to be stopped before 
SF>  we all get turned into hamburger.

     Learn something before you post.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (26)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 14:23:10
Subject: Stuff                 1/3              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/21/94 - 0004743
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Committee of 50 States
Newsletter - Volume 1, Number 2, June 1994                  by Joseph Stumph

As we promised in the first newsletter you will find a copy of the Walter
Williams column which appeared in some 100 newspapers nationwide around the
first of 1994.  As a result of his column we have received many inquiries
about our work to get 38 states to adopt the Ultimatum Resolution.

We are making good progress in getting the states to adopt the position that
they, not the federal government, are the superior in our state-federal
relationship.  If we only succeed in reversing the psychology which presently
exists at the state level; that is, that the federal government is superior
to the states, we will have won a great victory.  In getting the states to
realize that they are the PRINCIPALS, and the federal government is only an
AGENT, it is a tremendous step in the right direction.

Representative Charles Duke of Colorado was introduced to the Ultimatum
Resolution by one of his constituents around December 1993.  Shortly
thereafter he called and said he was going to introduce it in Colorado.
Later he decided it might be impossible to get it through Committe in the
House as the Committee Chairman was strongly against it.  Nevertheless, he
went forward with a proposal which had no "teeth" in it, but still sends a
strong message to the federal government, and is a good first step toward
reversing the present roles of federal and state governments.

Mr. Duke's sovereignty resolution, or 10th Amendment resolution known as
House Joint Resolution 94-1035 reads in part:

    . . .WHEREAS, the 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
    power as being that specifically granted by the United States
    Constitution and no more; and

    WHEREAS, the scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that
    the federal government was created by the states specifically to be
    an agent of the states; and

    WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the states are demonstrably treated as agents
    of the federal government; and

    WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
    government by the Colorado General Assembly without any response or
    result from Congress or the federal government; and (shades of King
    George of England in 1776)

    WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th
    Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

    WHEREAS, the United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v.
    United States, 112 S. St. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply
    commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states;
    and. . .

    Be it resolved by the House of Representatives of the Fifty-ninth
    General Assembly of the State of Colorado, the Senate concurring herein:

        (1) That the State of Colorado hereby claims sovereignty under the
    10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers
    not otherwise enumerated and granted in the federal government by the
    United States Constitution.

        (2) That this serves as Notice and Demand to the federal government,
    as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that
    are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers.

    Be it firther resolved, that copies of this Resolution be sent to the
    President of the United States, the Speaker of the United States House
    of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the
    Speaker of the House, and the President of the Senate of each state's
    legislature of the United States of America, and Colorado's
    Congressional delegation.

This Resolution passed the House April 8, 1994 by a vote of 51-13.  It later
passed the Senate 25-7.

In sending the Colorado Resolution to leadership in all 50 states, many of
these states are, or will, consider passing similar resolutions.

For example, Hawaii passed May 2, 1994 Senate Concurrent Resolution No. 108.
The strongest part of the Hawaiian Resolution reads:  BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED
that all compulsory federal legislation which directs states to comply under
threat of civil or criminal penalties or sanctions or requires states to
pass legislation or lose federal funding be prohibited. . .

One reason Hawaiian legislators are anxious to send a message to Washington
is, reading from the Resolution:  "Whereas, in a letter to the Honolulu
Advertiser, Governor John Waihee states that the cost factor associated with
complying with federal mandates will cost the State of Hawaii $377 million
or approximately twelve per cent of the 1994 state budget;". . .

All the states are laboring under more and more unfunded federal mandates
which are causing even many socialist and liberal state legislators to ask,
"What can we do?"  The Ultimatum Resolution is meant to wake up state
legislators that they, not Washington, have all the power, and that
Washington exists only at their pleasure.

Dr. Ronald Carlson, a dental surgeon in Honolulu, the State Coordinator for
the Committee of 50 States, and a wonderful group of activist patriots
working with him can be credited for the passage of the Hawaiian Sovereignty
Resolution.  They have put in many hours in meeting with and educating a
number of Hawaiian state legislators.  Ron and our Committee did their best
to get Hawaii to "go for the gold" with the Ultimatum Resolution.  We are
very proud of them for getting us "half-a-loaf" with the Sovereignty
Resolution.
>>> Continued to next message
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (27)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 14:24:10
Subject: Stuff                 2/3              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/21/94 - 0004744
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> Continued from previous message
Roman Haslag and his wife Taz, our Missouri State Coordinators, personally
delivered flyers to each of their 197 Missouri legislators.  Between them
and the influence of Charles Duke's Colorado Resolution, Missouri passed a
resolution nearly identical to that of Colorado on May 13, 1994.  In the
House it was 153-1.  Senate, 27-0.  Hallelujah!

At last count in California, Senator Don Rogers was leading a sovereignty
resolution adoption nearly identical to that of Colorado with 22 Senate
co-sponsors and 40 co-sponsors in this Assembly.

In Florida, Representatives Bill Posey and Stan Bainter succeeded in getting
24 co-sponsors for "the gold" itself, the Ultimatum Resolution.  These good
men are doing all they can to get Florida to stand up to the federal bully.
Please encourage thm in their excellent work.

The Arizona State Legislature was the host of Western States Summit II, May
19 and 20.  Arizona governor Fife Symington and Utah governor Michael
Leavitt addressed this convention attended by some 350 state legislators and
county commissioners, miners and ranchers, etc. from all over the west.  As
in the first conference held in Denver in February 1994, elected leaders and
others are trying to come to some sort of consensus on the best way to get
the federal government under control.

Both governors presented good plans which point us in the right direction.
Governor Leavitt in particular is calling for a convention of states to get
together to figure out what to do.  He thinks, perhaps, an amendment to the
Constitution which will strengthen the Tenth Amendment could be the thing to
do.

Such an approach is good but will accomplish nothing.  The elitists in
control of our government are determined to control the entire planet and
the only thing which can possibly hold them back is for at least 38 states
to take a stand as we suggest and tell the feds exactly how it is; that we
are all fed up; have taken all the federal oppression and tyranny and
outlandish taxation we intend to take, and in power, under law, and with
firmness tell the federal government we mean to put them back in their
constitutional cage, or dissolve the entire federal structure and start
over.

Nevertheless, Governors Leavitt and Syimgton have their STATE'S RIGHTS
thinking caps on and we should encourage and applaud them as they grow in
knowledge as to how the game should be played, and we hope, with the courage
to stand and fight.  It is doubtful that either governor has the insight or
knowledge of the evil nature of the global elitists or their determination
to RULE and RUIN this planet.  It is important that we let them know we are
behind them, for as they begin to put heat on the federal government, they,
in turn, will feel tremendous heat and pressure to back off and let the rich
men of the earth have their way.

We have 23 states in which we have wonderful patriots who have accepted the
responsibility to be State Coordinators for the Committee of 50 States.
They are listed below.  Please contact these leaders is your state is
represented and volunter to help them get your state to pass the Ultimatum
Resolution.  We need Coordinators in the other 27 states.  If you can refer
us to knowledgeable patriots who might have the time to act as leaders in
these states, please refer them to us.

ALABAMA                     ALASKA                      ARIZONA
Scott Lyons                 Steve Guildner              Don Scherrer
University of Alabama       PO Box 75303                2009 E. Bendix Dr.
PO Box 4887                 Fairbanks, AK  99707        Tempe, AZ 85283
Tuscaloosa, AL  35486       (907)488-7501               (602)838-4147
(205)752-7923

ARKANSAS                    CALIFORNIA                  COLORADO
Bob Eldridge                Paul Kotter                 William (Bill) Fromm
702 Arrowhead Dr.           3145 Westhaven Dr.          10772 Inspiration Dr.
Jonesboro, AR  72401        Anaheim, CA 92804           Parker, CO 80134
(501)972-4650               (714)827-7162               (303)941-2382

GEORGIA                     HAWAII                      IDAHO
John P. Bratton             Ron Carlson                 Ruth Young
140 Deanna Ct.              4211 Waialae Ave, Ste. 400  836 Teton Dr.
Lawrenceville,  GA 30245    Honolulu, HI 96816          Jerome, ID  83338
(404)962-0465               (808)735-0282               (208)324-7218

ILLINOIS                    IOWA                        MICHIGAN
Jack Jones                  Randy Herod                 Jim Petrangelo
c/o Box 405                 Box 1041                    32206 Schoenherr
Bethany, IL 61914           Waterloo, IA  50704         Warren, MI  48093
(217)665-3857               (319)235-2894               (810)294-6616

MISSOURI                    MONTANA                     NEVADA
Roman and Tax Haslag        Barbara Linaburg            James (Jim) Dennis
c/o 333 Ebenezer Rd         Box 533                     Box 1089
Leslie, MO (zip exempt)     Terry, MT  59349            Hawthorne, NV  89415
(314)484-3419               (406)637-5865               (702)945-3121

NEW MEXICO                  NEW HAMPSHIRE               OHIO
William (Bill) Ritch        Guy Comtois                 James Johnson
P.O. Box 8                  16 Melody Lane              272 Whitethorne
Cushillo, NM  87932         Pelham, NH  03076           Columbus, OH  43223
(505)743-3201               (603)635-9909               (614)272-8828
>>> Continued to next message
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (28)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 14:25:10
Subject: Stuff                 3/3              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
 * STOLEN *             To: MATT GIWER
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/21/94 - 0004745
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0108 - Giwer World-L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> Continued from previous message
OKLAHOMA                    TENNESSEE                   UTAH
Charles Key                 Donald R. Porter            Gary L. Van Dolzer
700 Manchester Lane         Route 2, Box 352-A          1456 S. 750 E
Oklahoma City, OK  73127    Ramer, TN  38367            Kaysville, UT  84037
(405)521-2711               (901)645-6470               (801)451-6529

WASHINGTON                  WYOMING
Nolan Petersen              Russell Donley (temporary)
7527 44th St., W #2         1140 Ivy Lane
Tacoma, WA  98466           Casper, WY  82609
(206)564-6157               (307)235-1789

Most of the state legislatures have adjourned for 1994.  Now is the time to
approach your personal state representative, or those likely to be elected
in the 1994 November elections, and ask them to co-sponsor the Ultimatum
Resolution in 1995.

Our goal is to get the Ultimatum Resolution introduced in all 50 states in
1995 and actually get it passed by at least 38 states during the 1996 state
legislative sessions.

We have only about 7,400 people to concentrate on in all 50 states.  There
are at least 5,000,000 well-informed patriots across America who vote for
these 7,400 legislators.  Surely, 5,000,000 people encouraging 7,400 to vote
for the Ultimatum Resolution is sufficient to get the job done.  Please do
your part.  Go personally, and visit your two state legislators.  They are
local, common people just like most of us.  Since you vote for them they are
anxious to please you.  Let them know you're alive, friendly and diplomatic
and you want the Constitution preserved and federal deficit spending stopped.

To all of you who sent in $5.00 for a subscription to this newsletter, we
thank you for your support and faith in the cause of freedom.  Your
financial contributions are so gratefully accepted and appreciated because
we have to operate on a "shoestring."  We would like to thank each of you
individually but felt it wiser to thank all at once in the newsletter and
save postage.  You are wonderful; we love you and we need you if we are to
save our country, our homes and our lives from tyranny of the New World
Order and ultimate slavery.  Please share the newsletter with family,
friends and neighbors, or any who are interested in freedom.

This issue is complimentary to those who have not had it before.  If you
wish to be kept informed of the progress of this effort, please contact our
editor with your subscription.  We need your help.

For your convenience we now have the Ultimatum Resolution on videotape for
$13.00 postpaid.

Your friend in liberty,
Lila Aagard, editor

PLEASE NOTE:  The Ultimatum Resolution is an insurance policy, nothing more.
If 38 states decide to adopt it, nothing will happen unless Congress or the
President steps over the who lines which the states will be drawing in the
sand.  If 38 states act in unison, we believe the federal government will
obey the will of the states rather than face the alternatives.

If you would like a copy of the book showing the structure of the union and
how the states have all power, send $13.00 to:

    Committee of 50 States
    4808 Quailbrook Circle
    Salt Lake City, UT  84118
    (801)966-5533

=====================================================
    The "two lines in the sand" are:  (1) if the federal debt reaches
    $6 trillion and/or (2) there is an attempt to suspend or abolish
    all or part of the Constitution.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (29)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 16:11:10
Subject: 4th Amendment Rights                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: LES LEMKE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 06/17/94 - 0009691
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                             ARTICLE IV

        The  right  of  the people to be secure in their persons,
    houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and
    seizures,  shall not be violated,  and no warrants shall issue,
    but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and
    particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
    persons or things to be seized.

                                - The United States Constitution


 The underlining in the following article has been done by me to draw
 your attention to the articles which were confiscated.

 Area: Aen_News
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Date : Jun 09 '94, 00:44                                            Scn
 From : Kevin Schmid                                          1:345/29.0
 To   : All
 Subj : Latest TYRANNY by the NWO in Hawaii!!
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

     
                       NEW WORLD ORDER MOVES IN HAWAII!!
                                     
                 The Christian Volunteers Information Service
                           Reported by Lynn Shaffer


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE!
8 JUNE 1994, 12:AM

    Late this afternoon at approx 4:30 pm a swat style raid was 
conducted by various agencies of the U.S. government at a Hawaii
Kai residence.  Ivy West and her daughter returned to their rented
home and entered the premises as nothing appeared out of the ordinary.  
Agents suddenly appeared brandishing firearms, they were actually 
already in and around the house.  According to her daughter, the 
multi-agency team was made up of IRS, BATF, and FBI, etc, who were 
very heavily armed and wearing body armor.  They also were equiped 
with laptop computers, and surveillance equipment. They allegedly had 
search warrants and only asked if there were weapons on the premises.
(None were found.)  It is not know at this time whether the warrants
were legal and/or properly served.  Agents searched and ransacked 
the 3 level home which contained a number of roomates who were home 
at the time.

    Miss West remains in a Honolulu jail where they are claiming to 
be able to hold her for 48 hours without charges.  No charges have
yet been filed. They are not allowing her any visitors or phone calls 
at this time.
    
    Agents confiscated documents, personal records, and computer 
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
equipment, fax machine, phones, etc. Agents prepared an itemized 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
list of things taken which was labled:  "Tax Propaganda".  Among 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
the items stolen were Videos such as "Waco, The Big Lie", "Waco II",
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
and videos concerning the Weaver murders/seige.  Ivy had recently 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
been conducting radio interviews with attorney Linda Thompson and
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
discussing the ever increasing abuse of power by "our" government.  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
[END]

    Editor's note:  Is Ivy being made an example of as warning to
all of us who are on the front lines here in Hawaii?  Please keep
her and this situation in your prayers...

GBY!


*** GEcho 1.00
 # Origin: "Be Wise As Serpents"  Honolulu, Hawaii (1:345/29)

 ------------------------------------------------------------------


  Welcome to Hitler's Germany - 1994 style.



... *                                                                          

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (30)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:25:10
Subject: Waco #5                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Carrying in a portable radio Wayne demanded, "Listen to
this.  They are saying we started it."
     It was a press conference called by the government, the BATF
it turned out.  Now the speaker plainly stating they were fired
upon with a .50 caliber machinegun from the tower.
     "Wayne, was their anyone in the tower?"
     "Not that I know of."
     "Then what could have given them the idea there was a
machinegun up there?"
     "I don't know."
     Next the speaker told of their suspicions of child abuse.
     With that David came out of his bed before collapsing in
pain.  "That again," he whispered.  Every time some busybody from
wants to come out here they bring up that story.  I invited them
out here to look around last summer.  Why did they have to kill
my children?"  Infection was setting in.  He was not the old
David Koresh now.  He was weeping where David Koresh would have
shown strength.  They had only aspirin for fever and pain.
     "David, you have to rest but you have to hear this too.  I
am sorry."
     "If I were Italian I would have named you my consiglieri
long ago."  An old joke but the best he could must for his
lawyer lieutenant.
     The statement was opened for questioning.  An unindentified
voice asked if there was a possibility of drugs being used.  The
speaker denied it.  "At least they don't think we are drug
dealers."
     The phone rang.  It was amazing it had survived given the
condition of David's room.  Bullet holes were everywhere.
Everything was stained with blood.  The smell of noxious smoke
was everywhere.  Two men severely wounded had been taken prisoner
and one body was found.  None of his people had been in the room
until after the cease fire.  What had happened was
unexplainable.
     "This is David."
     "This is the BATF.  You are ordered to surrender.  Come out
unarmed with your hands up."
     "The Lord has commanded us to turn the other cheek but I can
not leave on my own.  I will tell my people of your order.  They
may comply if they feel the Lord commands it."
     "Koresh we know you are the leader and you can order them."
     "I can order them.  But after the cease fire you murdered
two of my people.  They were unarmed.  If they wish to turn their
cheeks to murderers I will neither stop them nor counsel them to
do so, save to repeat the word of the Lord."
     "They were armed and shot at us.  You broke the cease fire."
     "I do not send armed men to work on the water tower.  My
people do not carry guns while off of our land."
     "They were armed.
     "Have it as you will.  Goodbye."
     "Wayne, can we call the people at the press conference and
tell them what really happened?"
     "I have tried that.  Every phone line is answer by them"
with a note of disgust.  "We are cut off."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (31)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:27:10
Subject: Waco #6                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

c      David was approaching a delerium state from the infection of
his wounds when the BATF called and offered him a radio address
in return for surrender.  He was not certain of the terms of the
offer but there was enough of the old Koresh left to believe he
was being offered the opportunity to speak to the country.  He
had many teachings and sermons prepared for the world.
     Wayne came to his room.  "David, try to listen to me.  Did
you agree to surrender for radio time?"
     A very tired "what" passed his lips.
     "Did you agree to speak on the radio?"
     "Yes.  They asked for a teaching."
     "Did you agree to leave afterward?"
     "We will all leave here some day."
     "No, David, listen to me.  Did you make a deal to leave as
soon as your teaching was complete?"
     "I do not remember.  Who says I did?"
     "It's the damn radio again.  They announced a deal.  I can't
believe they would be saying this knowing your condition."
     "The lord will give me the strength."
===
     The next day he found the presence of mind to take an
overdose of aspirin and struggle up from his state enough to
remember one of his teachings.  He lost track of time and mixed
several different teachings and rambled on for almost three
hours.  Stations that had agreed to carry it around the country
dropped it after the first half hour.
===
     "David, listen to me.  They are demanding we surrender now.
Can you tell me anything before I answer?"
     David could not.  The aspirin had worn off and he was gone.
     Wayne called back and said that he could not confirm the
agreement with Dave and until he could he would make no decision
in his place.  
     At the next morning's press conference Wayne was enraged by
two announcements.  The first being that David had reneged on his
deal when that was not what had happened.  The second did his
blood pressure even less good.  It was announced the children
were being held hostage and that the FBI hostage rescue team was
being called in to take over.
     The children being held hostage in their own home was the
worst lie he could imagine.  But the new conference went on to
hint darkly of child abuse by David confined to his bed in a
state of delirium.  There was not one word in the press briefing
of what Wayne had told them.  There was not one truthful word in
the press conference.  Wayne was fuming but he did not bother
David.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (32)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:29:10
Subject: Waco #6                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      In the morning those who had chosen to leave and those who
had chosen to send out their children assembled in the chapel.
It had been the first priority for repair.  The damage from the
grenades had been mostly painted over but many of the hundreds of
bullet holes were still left.  They had not laid in enough
supplies to repair the results of an attack like this.
     The adults who chose to leave said they trusted the
government and believed their rights would be protected.  Those
who chose to send out their child felt the government would
certainly not harm them.  The government had promised to put them
under house arrest and send the children to family member.
     The adults who chose to stay believed with David and Wayne
that it was matter of where spend the rest of their lives.  Those
who chose to keep their children said they would never trust
their own children in the hands of strangers.
     David had pointed to the press briefings where the
government had said it was willing to wait forever.  He repeated
his teaching that the government would eventually come to destroy
them and to the constant stream of lies from the government but
to no avail.  He did his best not to give advice but teaching.
Those who kept their children chose to trust the government in a
manner that would permit their families to remain together.
     And so they left.  
     The children were given to social workers rather than their
extended families despite the promises.
     The adults who left were arrested and put in jail without
charges.  That was their right that they expected to be
protected even if the house arrest was a lie.
     Upon hearing the radio in the morning, Wayne remarked that
that was what he had been trying to say but perhaps he was too
much of a lawyer to get it across.
     David tried to console him by saying they probably did not
want to believe they could be held without charges.
     "Dave, you do know this means if we stay here for twenty
years they will be held for twenty years without charges?  If we
stay here until we die they will stay in prison until they die
and never have their day in court.  I did not want that on my
conscience."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (33)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 17:30:10
Subject: Waco #8                                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Last Call
     "Koresh, leave your gas mask on.  You don't have to answer.
We know you are a smart man.  Your children have now been exposed
to CS gas for six hours now.
     "The first symptoms of chemical pneumonia will set in in 24
hours.  They will start to die in 72 hours.
     "I know you are a smart man, Koresh.  You have one hour to
come out or their deaths will be on your hands."
     David hung up the phone visibly shaken.  He had seen a lot
but he never thought they would go ahead with it.  "Devil
worshipping murders," he cursed into his mask, "That bitch in
Washington murdered my children!"
     "Steve!  Wayne!" his voice breaking in rage, "Get in here."
     He was barely heard through the mask.  He told them of the
phone call.  Barely controlling his anger Wayne added, "That the
same thing they used against the Warsaw Ghetto.  What are they
going to do next?  Burn us alive?"



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (34)
To:      All                                    24 Jun 94 18:18:10
Subject: BATF "Tour" T-Shirt                    

 *********** Original       To: JIM BELL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


     It appears the government has accepted liability for the 
fire.  

JB>          FEDS TO REPAY TEXAS HOSPITAL FOR BRANCH DAVIDIANS' 
JB>          MEDICAL CARE
JB> 
JB>  DALLAS - The federal government will reimburse Parkland 
JB>  Memorial Hospital in Dallas for more than half a million 
JB>  dollars for medical care provided last year to three 
JB>  members of the Branch Davidian group.
JB> 
JB>  On April 19, 1993, three patients were transported from 
JB>  Waco to Parkland's burn unit with injuries suffered in the 
JB>  fire that destroyed the Branch Davidian compound and killed 
JB>  most of the group's members.  Medical bills for the burn 
JB>  treatments of the three patients totaled $526,477.25.
JB> 
JB>  Hospital officials asked that the federal government pay 
JB>  the bills because the fire resulted from a conflict between 
JB>  the Branch Davidians and FBI agents.  When the federal 
JB>  government refused to pay for the medical care, Parkland 
JB>  attorneys sued.
JB> 
JB>  "Before we filed the lawsuit, we asked our congressmembers 
JB>  to talk to [U.S.  Attorney General] Janet Reno to help get 
JB>  these bills paid," said Karen Neal, staff attorney for 
JB>  Parkland and primary attorney on the case.  "Both Sen.  [Kay 
JB>  Bailey] Hutchinson and Sen.  [Phil] Gramm got involved."

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (182)
To:      Ann Ross                               25 Jun 94 15:47:10
Subject: 00:  Ultimatum                         

AR>  MG>  I will grant you it will not be a military confrontation.  
AR>  MG>  Members of the Thompson cult are not up to it.

AR>          hahahahahaa, poor Matty, 

     Da' ho' is risen.
     

those you have "collected" 
AR>          around you, you are offended by.  

     And just who, in your syphillitic pea-brained imagination, 
did I collect?

How simple-minded 
AR>          you were to think otherwise.  You see, every 
AR>          revolution is made up of the "best and the worst" 
AR>          but you were never the "best."  You only had the 
AR>          dream that you could be and there is a very good 
AR>          possibilty they will drown you for nothing.  
AR>          Deserved.

     You lost touch with reality about three paragraphs back.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (183)
To:      Ann Ross                               25 Jun 94 15:50:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bill                   

AR>          I am loving this.  You must be having real 
AR>          nightmares.  Yellow becomes you.  Pick up your gun 
AR>          and go, Matty, or you are proving you were always 
AR>          just a big mouth and blow-off, line after line, 
AR>          PAGE AND BORING PAGE.  They are coming to get you, 
AR>          tra la, tra la...hehehehehe.  This is so good, like 
AR>          a black comedy and you are going to take the 
AR>          ultimate prat fall for it.

     You are doing a very poor Linda Thompson imitation.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (184)
To:      Ann Ross                               25 Jun 94 15:52:10
Subject: Fundie kikes                           

AR>  AR>          I think it is safe to say we have been radicalized.
AR>  AR>          Its time the churches were blown off the face of
AR>  AR>          this country.  Just to borrow a page from Giwer's
AR>  AR>          "book".......

AR>  MG> What ever I have done it certainly has your panties soaking.
AR>  MG> What might it have been?


AR>          Too bad you just drive a taxi and can't affort a 
AR>          penis enlargement.  Hope to make a few pennies here 
AR>          for it?

     I assure you.  The reason you have never had an orgasm is 
not because you can not find a man large enough.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (190)
To:      Gary Steinweg                          25 Jun 94 20:58:10
Subject: a Wasted President                     

GS> MG>      Since you were born can you possibly imagine discussing the
GS> MG> variations of the president's penis before now?

GS> MG>      18 months ago could you have imagined Waco?

GS> MG>      This slime bucket is dead meat.

GS>  Matt, you can be upset with Clinton for many things, but 
GS>  the Waco atrocity was purely the fault of the BATF.  

     Where do you see Waco in this?

The 
GS>  man at the top doesn't always have the control we'd like to 
GS>  think he has.  Clinton was only in office for less than two 
GS>  months when this murderous assault took place.  I't had 
GS>  been in the planning for as much as a year.

     But now that you brought it up.  Reno personally and 
possibly Billie Jeff approved a plan to induce a fatal illness 
into the children in order to force the surrender of their 
parents.  That is in the record.


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+++■■■■■ r_940629 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (101)
To:      Dave Hankins                           26 Jun 94 01:41:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills                  

DH>   Matt's theory is only flawed (IMO) in that he suggests 
DH>  that the average Joe Sixpack would  be  willing to "shrug" 
DH>  in the first place.  In this age of instant gratification, 
DH>  I do not believe that to be the case.  Who the hell cares  
DH>  about  the recent  violations of the BoR?  Beverly Hills 
DH>  90210 is on da tee-vee ferchrisakes!  Hand me the 
DH>  remote....

     So why did you not tell me about what you saw as a flaw.  I 
go back to Ayn Rand, the people who are willing to shrug are Joe 
Six-pack's employers.  

DH>    The small business  owner  *is*  the  motor  driving  
DH>  this economy;  he  creates  the jobs.  As it stands, 
DH>  governmental regulation, inane  mandates  and  confiscatory  
DH>  taxation are already removing much of his incentive to bust 
DH>  his  ass  and risk  his  capital.   To  that  extent,  I 
DH>  would say the the "shrug"  is  being  encouraged   by  the  
DH>  current  political climate.

     Precisely.  And when they close up shop where is Joe going 
to find a job?  It is called the domino effect.  The store is 
shut down and it generates no taxes.  The owner gets no rent.  
There is no one to open a new shop in the same place.  

     80% of employment in this country is small business.  10% of 
that closing shop is called a recession.  25% of that is called a 
Depression.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (102)
To:      All                                    26 Jun 94 02:27:10
Subject: Call Me Master                         

                       Call Me Master
                             by
                          Anonymous (c) 1994 <6/26>

     Who made you the laborer for me?  I quit work.  I live off
of the government.  Thank you very much.
     Could I work?  Yes.  Do I choose to work?  No.  Can I live
without working?  Of course.  You are my slave.  You work to
support me.  Why should I work?
     I have a right to have a family and have them fed and have
medical care for them.  It was good of you to choose to support
me in raising my family.
     You have given me an apartment, medical care, food, spending
money, a telephone, cable TV, and a nice color TV.  I am taking a
course to learn the skills to flip burgers and when I complete
it they will pay be for taking the course.  I have a nice car in
mind.  Thank you.  But you will never catch me being nice to a
burger.
     You folks are being very good to me.  But then I should not
pretend to thank you.  You are not doing it out of charity.  You
would never do this out of charity.  It was the people I vote for
who decided I should be the master and you should be the slave.
     Look at it from my point of view.  If I, shall we say, cheat
a little, they slap my wrist.  If you refuse to pay for me, they
take away everything you own and put you in jail.  I can get away
with murder.  You can't do jack shit.
     If you don't like me you can write your Congressman.  If I
don't like you I get prime time coverage of my latest demand upon
your income.
     I got mine, Jack.  If you can't afford to take your family
to the doctor, tough.  I have Medicaid.  If your family is
hungry, up yours.  I have food stamps.   If you can't make the
rent, tough noogies. The government pays my rent.
     I got mine, Jack.
     What am I going to do when my children are ready for
college?  They are at the top of the list for a free college
education because I earn no income.  I would hurt their chances
were I to go to work.  Thank you for paying for their college
while you can not afford it for your children.  You may call me,
Master.  You are lucky I don't whip you when my check arrives
late.  
     I am better than you.  I have more civil rights than you and
I do nothing for them.  If I have a problem with the law I get
help free.  If you have a problem with a law, you go into debt
for years, maybe bankrupt.  And if I am lucky enough for you to
injure me.  I am in fat city and you are in real trouble.  But if
I injure you, you can't get blood from a turnip.
     Listen up, slave.  Stay just the way you are.  But I wish
you would breed a little more.  I need a guaranteed car.
                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

 Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (105)
To:      Rick Chadderdon                        26 Jun 94 14:26:10
Subject: Normal Queers                          

RC> HIV+ does not guarantee AIDS.

     Since when?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (165)
To:      Bert Byfield                           26 Jun 94 17:40:10
Subject: 00:  Ultimatum                         

BB>  MG>       "In an apparent coup attempt today, Linda Thompson and 
BB>  MG>  her cult followers were killed and 300 arrested when they 
BB>  MG>  held an armed march on the White House and the Capitol 
BB>  MG>  Building intending

BB>  Dreaming of Blood again?  Wishful thinking.  Trying to 
BB>  scare everyone into obeying.  Do you enjoy wearing your 
BB>  fascist boots again?

     The dream was that no matter what happened the word would 
get out.  I merely demonstrated the media spin.

BB>  MG>       And just how do you know that?  The only thing I have 
BB>  MG>  seen as a call is MEET armed and do it.  Who is in charge?  
BB>  MG>  Who is giving the orders?  What are the rules of 
BB>  MG>  engagement?  Will the guns be loaded or unloaded?  Who will 
BB>  MG>  give the order to load? Who will the people in the middle 
BB>  MG>  of this mingling mob be aiming at?  Who will give the order 
BB>  MG>  to fire?

BB> Yes, that's a good list of questions for the federal secret
BB> police.  But I am not one, so I'm not telling you anything.

     Your pretentions are amusing.  As you know there are no 
answers.  There is no RSVP list.  There is no statement, do not 
come if you do not receive secret orders.   Even if there is some 
sort of organization the majority showing up won't know about it.

BB>  MG>       This is an insurrection.  It should be the final step 
BB>  MG>  after politics fails not the first step.

BB>  The politics hasn't been too successful in investigating 
BB>  the Waco murders, has it?

     You are now pretending this is all over Waco?  

BB>  MG> BB>   will put Linda Thompson in the news, all across the 
BB>  MG> BB>   nation.

BB>  MG>       "The BATF announce today their inspection of the 
BB>  MG>  Thompson cult members indicated most were assault weapons 
BB>  MG>  of the type recently put under severe regulation by the 
BB>  MG>  government because their only purpose is to kill people.  
BB>  MG>  The survivors have been

BB>  You are dreaming again.  Wake up!  

     That is the press release that will be reported all over the 
country.  Thus, the only purpose in being there will have been to 
kill people.  People who are arrested do not get to make speeches 
to the press.

Intimidation is not a 
BB>  very admirable technique.  You don't seem interested in the 
BB>  rights or wrongs about anything, only in trying to scare 
BB>  everyone from resisting the out-of-control federal 
BB>  organization of criminals and libertines that rule 
BB>  Washington DC.  That all you got?

     I am merely pointing out why this approach will not work, 
not even as a media event.  People are going to die for nothing.  
That is stupid.  Death is not honorable.  Death is nothing but 
dead.

BB>  MG>      If after making their decisions the first thing they had
BB>  MG> done was to grab a gun and demand the governor surrender it would
BB>  MG> have been a very short revolution.

BB> This is NOT a revolution.  You are freaking out.  Calm down.

     Just what do you think arresting and trying (and what, 
imprisoning?) the President and Congress constitutes?  That means 
the shut down of the US Government.  

     What would you call it?

BB>  MG>       I was unaware he had ever been part of an armed mob 
BB>  MG>  that had made the penalty for non-compliance a bloody coup.  
BB>  MG>  When did this happen?

BB>  What bloody coup?  I'm sure you were unaware that Dr Spock 
BB>  was antiwar.  I'm sure you keep yourself from knowing a lot 
BB>  of unpleasant truths.  Give morality a second chance.  
BB>  Obedience to immoral power is immoral.

     You make a reference to Dr. Spock and compare it to this 
armed revolution.  You and who knows how many like you are going 
there armed to the teeth.  Do you expect meek surrender to arrest 
or do you expect resistance?  If you not expect meek surrender 
why do you not expect people to start dying?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (166)
To:      Bert Byfield                           26 Jun 94 18:04:10
Subject: 10Th Ammendment Bills                  

BB>  MG>       So you are going up against troops and tanks with hand 
BB>  MG>  weapons and you expect to accomplish something.

BB>  Are you still shaking in your boots in terror that Linda 
BB>  Thompson and I will get killed?  Just pretend we are 
BB>  students at Kent State or gooks or something.

     I don't give a rat's ass if you get killed or not.  If that 
is what you want there is no way to stop you.  

     However you are making a perfect foil.  With your 
cooperation I can point out to anyone undecided just how stupid 
this entire idea is.  

     I am doing it on every conference and so is Michael Shirley.     

BB>  Gimme a break.  Now you are tired of warning us off, so you 
BB>  advise us to kill and maim with maximum efficiency?  I 
BB>  guess your federal paycheck looks real good every two 
BB>  weeks, hunh?

     I don't get a federal paycheck.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (167)
To:      Bert Byfield                           26 Jun 94 18:08:10
Subject: Ultimatum                              

BB>  MG>       I am getting the very strong impression you have not 
BB>  MG>  read that you are supposed to show up armed and equipped.  
BB>  MG>  You call it an exercise.  This is the real thing.  It is 
BB>  MG>  not a drill.

BB>  Geez, the Sixties must have been miserable for you.  You 
BB>  thought Abbie Hoffman might REALLY levitate the Pentagon, 
BB>  didn't you! You thought SDS was going to kick everyone out 
BB>  of DC and take over, right?

     What do you think these words mean?

**********    AEN ALERT  ********** IMPORTANT *********  AEN ALERT ******
   **********   COPY AND FORWARD THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY ************

    All units will be armed and prepared to enforce this mandate.  
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^^^^^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is exactly what it sounds like.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=====

     And where did you get the idea this was some kind of college 
prank war protest?     


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (169)
To:      All                                    27 Jun 94 01:57:10
Subject: Rights                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Rights From Who?
                             by
                         Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/27>

     Lets start with a few simple questions.  Does the Government
grant you the right to have a place to live?  Does the Government
grant you the right to food?  Does the government grant you the
right to have children?  Does the government grant you the right
to use fire?  Does the government grant you the right to defend
yourself?
     Did I hear a yes to any of these questions?  If that that is
the premise of our government.  That our rights came before the
government was created and shall exist no matter what the
government says or does and shall continue after the government
is long history.
     Our right to everything above can be traced back millions of
years where weapons for self defense were used by our pre-human
ancestors.  The idea there is a difference between our rights
and our human nature is tenuous at best.  No real difference can
be demonstrated.
     Weapons are our nature.  We inherited the use of weapons.
We evolved with the use of weapons.  Weapons are or means of
defense.  This is not something given to us by the government.
It is something we told the government it can not harm in any
manner.
     Let us continue with some harder questions.  Can the
government restrict the number of children you can have?  Can the
government determine the quality of your housing?  Can the
government determine what you can and can not eat?  Can the
government restrict your use of fire?  Can the government
restrict you to primitive weapons in the face of superior
weapons?
     I think I detect some equivocation out there.  Children?  If
you can afford them -- but who determines afford?  Housing?  Not
much movement there.  Food?  Not yet as long as the packaging
emphasizes all the current evils in food.  Use of fire?  Of
course not.
     But can the government restrict you to a club or knife in
the face of a gun?  So many agree it can.  I do not understand
why.  I do not understand why the government can restrict you to
an 8 round magazine in the face of a 19 round magazine.
     What I really to not understand is why anyone would accept
the government having this power.
     It has no such power.
     It may make it illegal but it can not take away the right to
self defense by the best means available.  Whose life is it?
     The government has no compelling interest in any particular
human life nor in any population level.  In fact given its
interest in birth control it would appear the government's
interest is in people dying as quickly as possible.  That the
government does not care you are forced into an unequal match
unless you are willing to risk the loss of everything you have
worked for all of your life is not in question.
     If you die the government will reinforce its claim you
should not have weapons because you died from an unequal match.
Should you survive and produce an illegal weapon as your means of
saving your life, at the minimum it will be taken from you so you
can never save your life again.  At the maximum that will happen
and you will go go jail for ten years for saving your own life.
That is our government in action.
     Lets go to the hardest question of all.  Can the government
demand you die to uphold its failure to get criminals off of the
streets?  Yes is the most common reaction in this country.
     The police can not protect you.  You are not permitted to
have the most effective means of protecting yourself.  The
government can not stop violent crime.  Therefore, you die.
Clean, simple, and no longer a drain upon Social Security or the
health care system.  What a neat solution to many outstanding
problems.
     And if you defend yourself, go to jail, go directly to jail,
do not pass go, do not collect $200.
     Only in America.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

     1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      Jian Shan                              27 Jun 94 02:04:10
Subject: AIDS STATS                             

JS>   Thank you!  I have the hardest time telling the nitwits 
JS>   that it really doesn't matter how a person contracted 
JS>   AIDS.  That person is still a person, and he is suffering.

     Save that in most cases it was contracted with behavior that 
was known to spread the disease.  And if he is suffering he has 
no more sympathy that a skydiver with a broken back.  That does 
not justify a billion dollars on broken back research.

     The person is going to die as a direct result of the HIV+ 
status unless a speeding truck gets him first.  Give them all the 
pain killers they need and send them home.  There is no treatment 
that will do any good.  They are the walking dead.

JS>   I think that bigots don't want to acknowledge that 
JS>   children and other innocents are getting sick.  

     For that VERY small percentage inflicted upon them by their 
parents there should be sympathy AFTER the people who did it to 
the child are cut off from all pain killers as suitable 
punishment.  Summary execution would be a blessing to them.


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+++■■■■■ r_940630 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (49)
To:      All                                    27 Jun 94 18:44:10
Subject: Curiouser and curiouser                

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     ABC Evening News, 6/27

     Over 1000 thousand Haitian refugees were picked up today 
alone in addition to hundreds more over the weekend.  They will 
be taken to a ship in Jamaica for processing.  

     =====

     Lets see, we have a ship full a marines and a hospital ship 
near Haiti and an extra hundred medical people sent to Guantanamo 
to take care of them and for some reason they are sent to 
Jamaica.  

     


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